Post by: Toady One on March 01, 2018, 09:16:20 pm
Development page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0). Questions and comments about the development page or DF development somewhat more broadly work here, though any contentious topics that lead to derails are discouraged -- there are threads for those too.
If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well. You do that like this:
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]making questions limegreen[/color]
Here is the last reply from the last thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7701845#msg7701845
At the time of this thread's creation, the current plan was continuing working on bugs and smaller suggestions while integrating features important to both the magic releases and making the long wait for the magic release more tolerable, generally related to armies and villains. Then we'll move on to myths and magic, before tackling embark scenarios and their associated frameworks (law, property, customs, status, etc.).
Post by: thvaz on March 01, 2018, 09:22:54 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 01, 2018, 10:12:01 pm
Post by: Rubik on March 01, 2018, 11:27:22 pm
Can this be understood as that we'll finally get torture and good cop bad cop in fort mode?
Post by: Asin on March 01, 2018, 11:48:00 pm
Post by: Inarius on March 02, 2018, 03:24:13 am
Post by: Putnam on March 02, 2018, 03:48:50 am
Post by: ZM5 on March 02, 2018, 06:00:42 am
I have two questions.
Are you planning on expanding the dark pits/fortresses, hillocks, hamlets, and smaller forest retreats to have similar "facilities" as towns do?
I notice dark pits sites have taverns, libraries and so on listed in legends, but they don't actually exist in the game proper. I don't recall seeing those abstract locations for hillocks, small forest retreats and hamlets, but those could definitely use having small versions of those. Hillocks and dark pits in particular seem like they need some improvements, considering they seem to lack armory areas, and drinking mounds dont even have furniture or booze.
Secondly, is the small size of current mead halls intentional? I noticed that after 44 they're a lot smaller than pre-44, and don't seem to ever go as many z-levels down as before.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 02, 2018, 07:38:47 am
I know it's not hardcoded because I copy/pasted my 'bad dwarf' modded race (who were attacking in worldgen) values/ethics into the dwarf entity and they started going to war. And of course regular dwarves will attack players who provoke them right now.
So, I guess my question is, are you going to nudge npc dwarf sites to be a bit more aggressive during wars this time around? It gets kind of lonely fighting by yourself.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 02, 2018, 08:06:26 am
Specifically which portions of the rest of the Improved Sieges notes (besides prisoner stuff) are you leaning towards leaving us with before the Big Wait?From the way it's worded it seems to refer to specifically just the prisoner stuff? (as in, he cut those 2 items out of the improved sieges section and into the pre-magic stuff).
Something that struck me earlier thinking of the myth and magic stuff, and as far as I can remember hasn't been officially talked about (someone please point me in the right direction if it has):
Do the plans for permanent changes to occur to myth-level elements during regular play include changes to races? It's a fairly common fantasy theme after all to have races be cursed and/or corrupted and become dark elves and whatnot.
Post by: Sooner535 on March 02, 2018, 08:30:46 am
Will battles and war and the likes ever be an on-screen thing? Will I be able to watch and control my dworfs in epic battles, offensive sieges, or see them in a town I captured? Will raids follow that eventually or will only certain things get that king of treatment? Or will that not happen at all?
Will combat speed be slowed slightly to allow players to look at fights better? I notice that once over 10 units get into a fight I don’t care enough to look which really hurts things imho, idk how much this would affect things but maybe a slight increase in body part HP or lowering of weapon damage? Or perhaps is this exactly how you want it to work as is and the showing of combat info will get better at some point?
Will you be able to read books in fortress mode eventually? Or even write the books?
Will we ever see larger shields introduced to the main game? Even just a tower shield that reduces speed slightly but has a higher chance to block would be acceptable (then you have buckler for speed, tower shield for defense, and shield for inbetween
Will we ever see a hobbits type fantasy race? More peaceful little guys that just farm and try and stay out of the way?
Post by: DoctorDorf on March 02, 2018, 08:48:54 am
Post by: Knight Otu on March 02, 2018, 08:59:26 am
Something that struck me earlier thinking of the myth and magic stuff, and as far as I can remember hasn't been officially talked about (someone please point me in the right direction if it has):
Do the plans for permanent changes to occur to myth-level elements during regular play include changes to races? It's a fairly common fantasy theme after all to have races be cursed and/or corrupted and become dark elves and whatnot.
During the GDS myth talk, there was a piece where a god cursed a group of fey to become demons as a punishment, and I think I remember seeing something about cursing dwarves to become goblins as well. I could see something like this happen where instead of using an existing race, it would derive the new race from the old.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 02, 2018, 09:03:53 am
I notice dark pits sites have taverns, libraries and so on listed in legends, but they don't actually exist in the game proper. I don't recall seeing those abstract locations for hillocks, small forest retreats and hamlets, but those could definitely use having small versions of those. Hillocks and dark pits in particular seem like they need some improvements, considering they seem to lack armory areas, and drinking mounds dont even have furniture or booze.
The typical theme of dark towers are that goblins are a ill tempered race who live in caves (rooms are literally 1x2 doors with holes and floorspace to sleep in, which many goblins dogpile onto one another) and in extreme poverty. Actually within the ground layer of the tower is a enormous stockpile of weapons and that gather up from skirmishes on site (usually between other goblins) and statues since its all for display compared to the reality of the underground living complex, same can be seen in reclaimed dwarf sites where goblin goods from failed attacks stack up.
Lets see what Toady says, but perhaps goblin establishments are better suited out of town away from the dark tower fortifications and we still need to make the jump to spawn those sites on a not pure self contained site level, but just as civilization connected landmarks for sites that have planning development room outside of what is hardcoded.
Hillocks & Dark pits are not independent, they rely on the Fortresses (dark and dwarf) or protection & for trade, as per Toady's mapping choices.
Post by: Rubik on March 02, 2018, 10:50:28 am
Could you elaborate on the type of improvements you've thought?
Post by: Mephansteras on March 02, 2018, 12:26:13 pm
(posting to watch)
Post by: Bumber on March 02, 2018, 01:12:11 pm
Will battles and war and the likes ever be an on-screen thing? Will I be able to watch and control my dworfs in epic battles, offensive sieges, or see them in a town I captured? Will raids follow that eventually or will only certain things get that king of treatment? Or will that not happen at all?
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: DGHas Toady mentioned whether in the first iteration you'll be able to see the tact squads in action in some sort of remote window view or will they simply disappear off screen and then update you on what's happened when/if they later return?Knight Otu answered this, but just to reiterate, definitely no remote view on the first pass. It's a hard/tedious problem akin to the addition of the Z coordinate to get that working in the current framework. However, it's also a problem we'd like to tackle -- magic release is the first place that might happen, with something like planar travel (which is best when you can see both sides of a portal, say). When we code that, it'll support viewing squads in the same plane at distant locations.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 02, 2018, 05:05:41 pm
It says some things from Improved Sieges below and also the prisoner stuff (which is new and not in Improved Sieges).Specifically which portions of the rest of the Improved Sieges notes (besides prisoner stuff) are you leaning towards leaving us with before the Big Wait?From the way it's worded it seems to refer to specifically just the prisoner stuff? (as in, he cut those 2 items out of the improved sieges section and into the pre-magic stuff)..[/color]
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 02, 2018, 06:06:10 pm
It says some things from Improved Sieges below and also the prisoner stuff (which is new and not in Improved Sieges).
The below refers to the prisoner stuff, no? (which was previously listed under improved sieges)
Post by: Vivalas on March 02, 2018, 06:24:16 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 02, 2018, 06:28:04 pm
Ah, so the 'also:' is just a copy/paste error? Fair enough.It says some things from Improved Sieges below and also the prisoner stuff (which is new and not in Improved Sieges).
The below refers to the prisoner stuff, no? (which was previously listed under improved sieges)
Post by: Mechanoid on March 02, 2018, 10:05:48 pm
If the player can give items to companions, and mounts are kind-of those, would this allow player-controlled pack animals to exist? Mounts with war gear like armor/uniform? How will this be integrated into the military screen?
Finally fixing the "Amphibian mount drowns their rider" problem?
+ Will mounts/pets have to be fed by the player or are they abstracted to handle it themselves while traveling? Will fortress mode animals be feedable, finally, to avoid starvation while the fortress guard rides their war horses through the stone floor halls?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 02, 2018, 10:43:38 pm
Will the medical improvements to the military system extend to animals, pets, and mounts? To fortress mode so dwarves will operate a proper veterinary hospital service? Civilization Ethics behind putting down a pet or mount which is too badly wounded to live?Do dwarves even have mounts right now? The mounts in the upcoming updates mentioned are for adventurers. Eventually I'm sure there'll be fortress mode mounts, but I'd guess they're not coming soon.
If the player can give items to companions, and mounts are kind-of those, would this allow player-controlled pack animals to exist? Mounts with war gear like armor/uniform? How will this be integrated into the military screen?
Finally fixing the "Amphibian mount drowns their rider" problem?
+ Will mounts/pets have to be fed by the player or are they abstracted to handle it themselves while traveling? Will fortress mode animals be feedable, finally, to avoid starvation while the fortress guard rides their war horses through the stone floor halls?
Post by: KittyTac on March 03, 2018, 12:58:08 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2018, 01:03:14 am
Dorf siegers have mounts. But not the dorfs you play.Not yet anyhow. :)
Post by: Hapchazzard on March 03, 2018, 07:22:24 am
2. Similarly, once we are able to appoint administrators to conquered sites, will the sites be able to rebel?
3. Will we be able to send messengers to nearby sites to request military assistance in case of a siege? Or request additional troops from the Mountainhome to garrison the fortress?
4. Will passing armies sometimes request temporary hospitality at your fortress, with the ability to accept or refuse?
5. Will we be able to yield the fortress without a fight to invaders? Related, will there be mechanics for your own fort being occupied (such as a hostile garrison being put in place)?
Post by: Greendogo on March 03, 2018, 03:14:44 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 03, 2018, 04:51:46 pm
Can you elaborate on the current efficiency of the program in terms of world building? Would you remark as to the feasibility of separating the world building part of DF into a separate slave-executeable which we could put on servers to allow worlds to be built by faster computers (probaby maintained by the community)?I very much doubt it would be particularly useful. DF essentially uses a single thread (which can execute in parallel with other threads running other DF instances), but also uses a lot of memory access (which mostly would compete with other DF instances). At the end you might build a custom computer that generates a 4 hour world in half an hour provided nobody else is using it, but would be slower than local world gen if there is a significant demand for it.
Just start the world gen and do something else (such as go to sleep or work).
Post by: DG on March 04, 2018, 05:13:21 am
Thanks for the answers, Toady!Something that struck me earlier thinking of the myth and magic stuff, and as far as I can remember hasn't been officially talked about (someone please point me in the right direction if it has):
Do the plans for permanent changes to occur to myth-level elements during regular play include changes to races? It's a fairly common fantasy theme after all to have races be cursed and/or corrupted and become dark elves and whatnot.
During the GDS myth talk, there was a piece where a god cursed a group of fey to become demons as a punishment, and I think I remember seeing something about cursing dwarves to become goblins as well. I could see something like this happen where instead of using an existing race, it would derive the new race from the old.
Further to this, the Foul Blendec origin story shows that permanent change/corruption/degeneration of races is something they'd like to explore. http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_forest_befouled.html
Post by: King Zultan on March 04, 2018, 06:38:30 am
The 'medical improvements' listed in the dev log are for adv. mode only, or we also are gonna get improvements in fort mode healthcare?I was also wondering about this.
Could you elaborate on the type of improvements you've thought?
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 04, 2018, 06:41:33 am
During the GDS myth talk, there was a piece where a god cursed a group of fey to become demons as a punishment, and I think I remember seeing something about cursing dwarves to become goblins as well. I could see something like this happen where instead of using an existing race, it would derive the new race from the old.
Further to this, the Foul Blendec origin story shows that permanent change/corruption/degeneration of races is something they'd like to explore. http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_forest_befouled.html
[/quote]
Had forgotten about that one (ages since I read them all), guess it's just a matter of when then like most things ^^
Post by: Immortal-D on March 04, 2018, 11:01:38 am
Post by: King Mir on March 04, 2018, 12:47:48 pm
I've seen a few discussions about the cause of FPS death. Can you please explain in simple terms exactly where the bottleneck lies, and how easy or difficult it will be to address?Honestly, my impression of Toady's development process is that the answer to this question is "mostly no". Toady addresses FPS problems as bugs, not as metrics. There have been fixes that address FPS issues, and over times where Toady has chosen to only partially fix issues, so those amount to known bottlenecks. In the same vein there are some subsystems that are known to be slow, such as fluids.
Additionally, there is anecdotal and player evidence that certain things contribute to FPS problems, with mitigating effects. You've probably seen these in discussions, and I believe there's a wiki page on these and what can be done about them.
Finally, we can talk broadly about how DF uses memory. This helps answer questions like what kind of hardware is best for DF and will different methods of parallelism help. Dwarf Fortress uses a lot of memory, for accesses a lot of it every frame. This is anecdotal too, since I'm not aware of anyone actually profiling DF.
A proper answer to this question would require metrics, and those simply don't exist.
Post by: Fieari on March 05, 2018, 06:22:45 am
I presume spheres would be involved. Will the RAWs have to expand to have lists of ways the spheres can influence magic? I know the myths will direct how magic works... but coherence is important! If a fire spirit is the source of magic in the world, how will the game know to make fire always part of the cost, or the effect, of the magic?
Post by: Criperum on March 06, 2018, 06:31:08 am
Post by: Rockeater on March 06, 2018, 03:23:09 pm
Post by: deathpunch578 on March 07, 2018, 01:29:25 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 07, 2018, 03:55:41 pm
Will there be any limit to how powerful magic is?You'll really need to define what you mean by that. What does "powerful" mean to a race who have the innate ability to transform into a bucket?
Generating a world in which children can destroy the earth at will, would be kind of annoying, sure, so in that respect I imagine there are certain 'limits'.
Costs of magic exist in the prototype mythgen, so there's that. I wouldn't expect any kind of "balance" to exist at first though, if that's what you mean (besides the kind that destroys the world before is generated 99% of times, for example).
Post by: deathpunch578 on March 07, 2018, 04:00:22 pm
That's kinda what I'm talking about, just overall how powerful can magic be (can people get turned into inanimate objects, can a single spell kill everything on the planet, is it possible to have a spell that makes it permanently winter, etc.) just looking for the limit of how crazy the magic system can be.Will there be any limit to how powerful magic is?You'll really need to define what you mean by that. What does "powerful" mean to a race who have the innate ability to transform into a bucket?
Generating a world in which children can destroy the earth at will, would be kind of annoying, sure, so in that respect I imagine there are certain 'limits'.
Post by: Sooner535 on March 07, 2018, 04:02:36 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 07, 2018, 04:05:49 pm
World changing events are in, so, pretty powerful I imagine. Artifacts that effect the fate of races too.That's kinda what I'm talking about, just overall how powerful can magic be (can people get turned into inanimate objects, can a single spell kill everything on the planet, is it possible to have a spell that makes it permanently winter, etc.) just looking for the limit of how crazy the magic system can be.Will there be any limit to how powerful magic is?You'll really need to define what you mean by that. What does "powerful" mean to a race who have the innate ability to transform into a bucket?
Generating a world in which children can destroy the earth at will, would be kind of annoying, sure, so in that respect I imagine there are certain 'limits'.
I imagine most of this won't be something the average dorf gets up to, but something which takes a single-minded villain a lifetime to achieve (or a bored adventurer...).
Just speculation though. I guess we'll find out more soon.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 07, 2018, 05:29:54 pm
That's kinda what I'm talking about, just overall how powerful can magic be (can people get turned into inanimate objects, can a single spell kill everything on the planet, is it possible to have a spell that makes it permanently winter, etc.) just looking for the limit of how crazy the magic system can be.
I'd recommend reading Tales Foretold: The Reign of Cenaster (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_tales_foretold.html) by Threetoe for some specifics. The magics outlined in there range from run of the mill fireballs to swapping souls with animals, locating things by observing your future, a magical sword cyclone, psychics reading minds and controlling people as puppets etc, transmuting materials into others (an acorn into a gold nugget in this case) and on the world changing end of the spectrum as some mentioned there are rituals that can pretty much make you a (or the) god while locking the old gods away in the afterlife, open portals to all manner of hell dimensions letting demons loose on the world along with earthquakes and other fun, and even severing the links to the afterlife dooming everyones souls to linger in the world after death (and possibly eventually reincarnate rather than go to heaven or whatnot).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 07, 2018, 05:43:03 pm
Post by: golemgunk on March 08, 2018, 03:44:00 pm
How do you intend to make procedurally generated magic become "thematic"? Most fantasy works organize their magic around one or more themes, each theme having all magic working similarly. For example, some split magic into elements, or into schools. Brandon Sanderson is famous for particularly intricate magic systems... such as all magic requiring the user to ingest and "burn" metal inside their stomachs to cast spells. All fantasy magics that are more than fairytales have SOME organization to their magic.
I presume spheres would be involved. Will the RAWs have to expand to have lists of ways the spheres can influence magic? I know the myths will direct how magic works... but coherence is important! If a fire spirit is the source of magic in the world, how will the game know to make fire always part of the cost, or the effect, of the magic?
In a bit of the myth generator that was shown, there were dwarves that could cast spells at the cost of their own blood, and their creation myth said they were created from a force called "the eternal blood" or something. So it looks like themed systems like that will just emerge naturally from the sources of magic in a world.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 08, 2018, 05:36:21 pm
Quote
If a fire spirit is the source of magic in the world, how will the game know to make fire always part of the cost, or the effect, of the magic?That's pretty much what the myth generator does (at least in the demo versions). If a fire spirit created the elves and gave them innate magical abilities, it'll be mostly fire related magic. It's procedural generation, not "random".
I suggest watching the various mythgen videos.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 09, 2018, 02:28:09 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 09, 2018, 02:34:01 pm
Giant desert scorpions when? :V
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 09, 2018, 05:02:15 pm
Welp, a new thread means I guess it's that time again, since it hasn't been seen in a while.Mañana
Giant desert scorpions when? :V
Post by: Inarius on March 09, 2018, 05:25:56 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 09, 2018, 05:45:51 pm
Post by: Shinziril on March 10, 2018, 01:06:26 pm
Post by: Admiral Obvious on March 11, 2018, 02:28:58 pm
That's kinda what I'm talking about, just overall how powerful can magic be (can people get turned into inanimate objects, can a single spell kill everything on the planet, is it possible to have a spell that makes it permanently winter, etc.) just looking for the limit of how crazy the magic system can be.Will there be any limit to how powerful magic is?You'll really need to define what you mean by that. What does "powerful" mean to a race who have the innate ability to transform into a bucket?
Generating a world in which children can destroy the earth at will, would be kind of annoying, sure, so in that respect I imagine there are certain 'limits'.
I imagine that there would be the scale on how much magic there is, where a "low tier" magical world would be more or less equivelant to the current necromancy/alchemy systems, and a "top end" magical world would probably end up becoming "Everyone is now a wagon, also I set the whole world on fire, have !FUN!".
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 11, 2018, 04:43:56 pm
Lots of fun new off-site raiding options. I wonder if some people will manage to make 100% tribute/raiding-dependent fortresses?Until you can tell dwarves to bring back specific items (like booze, wood, metal bars, etc) it's not much different from running a regular fortress as you still need dwarves doing all the basics (like making beds, brewing booze, chopping trees, cooking the livestock you steal, tanning the hides, etc. But yeah, you can ignore the wagon now if you want (maybe tribute requires a depot though, so you might not be able to turn off wagons altogether).
Giving a mostly raider based start a try right now. It's kind of Fun, as you no longer have siege triggers to keep you safe. Might all be dead by the time we've stolen enough weapons to equip a squad properly. :)
Next time will set pop cap to 15 or so for that real 'bandit camp' feeling.
Post by: Valtam on March 11, 2018, 09:16:24 pm
Even though I would love to enjoy this new update with raiding, pillaging and stuff, I can't bear those random crashes. Will report a few ones and wait for it to stabilize.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 12, 2018, 02:54:17 am
One potential case would be a future revamp of plants which would call for the collection of data for new tags such as e.g. limits to salinity tolerance, or pH value ranges (and probably a whole bunch more) for the existing range of plant raws.
Another potential case would be bulk production of raws for magic info where you might give some samples, description of the tags, and the names of the groups of raws to be produced (e.g. 10-20 effects for each of these spheres).
I can certainly understand if you feel that the burden of managing it is higher than the effort of doing the work yourself, however.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 12, 2018, 08:40:45 am
Have you considered asking the community to perform some bulk tasks where someone would take on the task to organize the collection of the results to return it to you in a "finished" shape?
One potential case would be a future revamp of plants which would call for the collection of data for new tags such as e.g. limits to salinity tolerance, or pH value ranges (and probably a whole bunch more) for the existing range of plant raws.
Another potential case would be bulk production of raws for magic info where you might give some samples, description of the tags, and the names of the groups of raws to be produced (e.g. 10-20 effects for each of these spheres).
I can certainly understand if you feel that the burden of managing it is higher than the effort of doing the work yourself, however.
Fan data has been implemented before (Add real solid density values for stones & wood (added to 0.34.08!) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80022.0), and there a FotF reply (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=84398.msg2281409#msg2281409) from long back touching on the topic:
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: UristocratWhat sort of research would help you the most? And how should the research be presented: tables summarizing the findings, links to sources where you can get the data yourself, or both? Are modified and annotated RAWs ever useful, or is it better to focus on creating forum posts with the necessary information?
Filling in the missing/incorrect/vague numbers I've got is the most useful thing that can be done now, since I'm most likely to be able to use it. Tables are fine, as long as there is a source for it, and having it already converted into the game's units is best. Raws are fine too, as long as they are sourced, and not so different from the originals that a diff utility is useless.
He's also mentioned he doesn't want to be a project manager though (Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_adams_of_bay_12_games_cocreator_of_dwarf/c91aa4o/)), so I assume he might not want to take on the inevitable extra management that would come with asking for something rather than getting it offered up more or less finished (not intending to speak for him of course and further answers would always be nice ^^).
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 12, 2018, 11:21:28 am
I know Toady isn't a fan of being a manager, and I can understand that completely, as I have the same distaste for performing those tasks (which also implies I'm not offering to lead such efforts, though I can certainly participate in the work itself). That's also why I tried to describe it as asking for something that's more or less finished (as per the phase of the task) where someone from the community would perform the management. It seems Myth & Magic may have some rather substantial raw additions/modifications, and bulk production might be a good candidate for "outsourcing". As with all outsourcing, the task has to be easy enough to describe in sufficient detail that people without intimate knowledge of the surrounding logic can do the work without much additional guidance.Have you considered asking the community to perform some bulk tasks where someone would take on the task to organize the collection of the results to return it to you in a "finished" shape?
One potential case would be a future revamp of plants which would call for the collection of data for new tags such as e.g. limits to salinity tolerance, or pH value ranges (and probably a whole bunch more) for the existing range of plant raws.
Another potential case would be bulk production of raws for magic info where you might give some samples, description of the tags, and the names of the groups of raws to be produced (e.g. 10-20 effects for each of these spheres).
I can certainly understand if you feel that the burden of managing it is higher than the effort of doing the work yourself, however.
Fan data has been implemented before (Add real solid density values for stones & wood (added to 0.34.08!) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80022.0), and there a FotF reply (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=84398.msg2281409#msg2281409) from long back touching on the topic:Quote from: Toady OneQuote from: UristocratWhat sort of research would help you the most? And how should the research be presented: tables summarizing the findings, links to sources where you can get the data yourself, or both? Are modified and annotated RAWs ever useful, or is it better to focus on creating forum posts with the necessary information?
Filling in the missing/incorrect/vague numbers I've got is the most useful thing that can be done now, since I'm most likely to be able to use it. Tables are fine, as long as there is a source for it, and having it already converted into the game's units is best. Raws are fine too, as long as they are sourced, and not so different from the originals that a diff utility is useless.
He's also mentioned he doesn't want to be a project manager though (Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_adams_of_bay_12_games_cocreator_of_dwarf/c91aa4o/)), so I assume he might not want to take on the inevitable extra management that would come with asking for something rather than getting it offered up more or less finished (not intending to speak for him of course and further answers would always be nice ^^).
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 12, 2018, 11:47:11 am
I know Toady isn't a fan of being a manager, and I can understand that completely, as I have the same distaste for performing those tasks (which also implies I'm not offering to lead such efforts, though I can certainly participate in the work itself). That's also why I tried to describe it as asking for something that's more or less finished (as per the phase of the task) where someone from the community would perform the management. It seems Myth & Magic may have some rather substantial raw additions/modifications, and bulk production might be a good candidate for "outsourcing". As with all outsourcing, the task has to be easy enough to describe in sufficient detail that people without intimate knowledge of the surrounding logic can do the work without much additional guidance.
True, that work (myth & magic) would on the other hand probably be a lot more fun than researching and just typing in loads of real world data, while also requiring some creativity and decision-making that might not be good to leave to the community (unless you're thinking of something different and more specific then what I assumed).
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 12, 2018, 02:55:22 pm
Even when (some) creativity is involved, the first 20 are a great fun to make, the next 30 are fun, the next 150 OK, and the last 800 a chore. A "please fill in the blanks" approach might be useful for large volumes. I may be overestimating the community, but I think we ought to be capable of accepting someone who's up to the task as coordinator.I know Toady isn't a fan of being a manager, and I can understand that completely, as I have the same distaste for performing those tasks (which also implies I'm not offering to lead such efforts, though I can certainly participate in the work itself). That's also why I tried to describe it as asking for something that's more or less finished (as per the phase of the task) where someone from the community would perform the management. It seems Myth & Magic may have some rather substantial raw additions/modifications, and bulk production might be a good candidate for "outsourcing". As with all outsourcing, the task has to be easy enough to describe in sufficient detail that people without intimate knowledge of the surrounding logic can do the work without much additional guidance.
True, that work (myth & magic) would on the other hand probably be a lot more fun than researching and just typing in loads of real world data, while also requiring some creativity and decision-making that might not be good to leave to the community (unless you're thinking of something different and more specific then what I assumed).
Post by: Grand Sage on March 12, 2018, 03:16:59 pm
With the work on sieges and raids, would you consider revising the old wield check bug, so that at least some of my dwarves can have mauls?
Also are mounts something we can look forward to before the big wait?
Why does the off-map fighting code use the highest tactician skill and not the one from the commanding officer?
Is the current tribute system the final solution, or are we going to get a more hostility friendly "pay or die" system?
I think thats it for now. Also, I really hope you go through with adding a messenger system, so that there is delay between order and execution. Actually, that triggers another question:
Will Messengers be a profession for themself, or are they just gonna be millitary people?
Post by: Eric Blank on March 12, 2018, 03:22:11 pm
Do you think these items would be private property of that noble or fort property? Would they hoard items/creaturea they like and distribute the rest?
Might we also see tribute for heroic deeds performed by one of our dwarves, say slaying a beast that killed many people?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on March 12, 2018, 03:48:08 pm
Also are mounts something we can look forward to before the big wait?
They're on the updated development list, so they're at least a candidate for pre-magic work.
Post by: GoblinCookie on March 12, 2018, 04:33:22 pm
With tribute being offered from subjugated sites now, will that translate to recieving tribute and/or taxes from sites which belong to a land-holder position or monarch in your fort? Can we recieve slaves or war prisoners if our civ permits them?
Do you think these items would be private property of that noble or fort property? Would they hoard items/creaturea they like and distribute the rest?
Might we also see tribute for heroic deeds performed by one of our dwarves, say slaying a beast that killed many people?
I am pretty sure the answer will be 'in the law, status and property' release in a few years time. ;)
Post by: Beag on March 12, 2018, 05:27:52 pm
2. On the updated development page one of the pre magic release candidates is showing personal relationships with people. What personal relation ships that you can think of do you think you will include before the myth and magic arc and what effects would these relationships have on gameplay if any?
3. Another thing listed on the updated development page is the ability to acquire positions in civilizations, how would our adventurer's go about acquiring these positions and what game play effects could they have if any?
4. Finally yet another thing listed on the updated development page is medical improvements for adventure mode, what ways of tending to our adventurers medically do you have in mind? Furthermore will our adventurers be able to acquire skills related to medical care?
Post by: Eric Blank on March 13, 2018, 12:43:14 am
I am pretty sure the answer will be 'in the law, status and property' release in a few years time. ;)
But i want details about what toady has planned, of course!
Post by: Rose on March 13, 2018, 02:31:03 am
Post by: GoblinCookie on March 13, 2018, 08:46:17 am
But i want details about what toady has planned, of course!
There probably are no details for that far ahead.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 13, 2018, 11:32:21 am
- Do you personally see your current development progress in this quarter as the unofficial hurrying of the 'Hill Dwarf' arc forward before the Magic Arc or do you think you are being conservative with saving advanced development of the Hill Dwarf arc for later?
- Are we likely to see some subterranean map interface & the Deep-Dwarves this cycle before the Magic Arc?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 13, 2018, 11:57:13 am
Any plane related stuff is likely to involve map structure rewrites. If that's the case they'll most probably be pushed to the other side of the save compatibility breaking stuff changes, as that's a clear save break candidate, as well as map rewriting in itself may break whatever minor additions are made just before the breaking, in which case Toady will most likely hold off on it on order not to waste efforts implementing stuff that soon will have to be rewritten/adjusted anyway.
- Do you personally see your current development progress in this quarter as the unofficial hurrying of the 'Hill Dwarf' arc forward before the Magic Arc or do you think you are being conservative with saving advanced development of the Hill Dwarf arc for later?
Just some questions bouncing around in my mind, its easy to get excited about the new rush of features (and the tinkering process of cleaning up the bugs after them) I may have answered my own question in a sort of way when i consider that the development page are only 'candidates' but i don't think the community would be too upset with establishing some worldbuilding before the maelstrom of procedural generation bugs from magic touching most of the game systems. :D
- Are we likely to see some underground plane interactions & the Deep-Dwarves this cycle before the Magic Arc?
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 13, 2018, 12:30:17 pm
~snip~Any plane related stuff is likely to involve map structure rewrites. If that's the case they'll most probably be pushed to the other side of the save compatibility breaking stuff changes, as that's a clear save break candidate, as well as map rewriting in itself may break whatever minor additions are made just before the breaking, in which case Toady will most likely hold off on it on order not to waste efforts implementing stuff that soon will have to be rewritten/adjusted anyway.
Ouch, fair answer, may end up just breaking everything on the way down, though besides that linux 100% cpu lockup bug going on at the moment, Toady seems to be very ontop of the new features being presented and much of the persistent bugs before the current version appear to be causing more issues than anything outstandingly new.
*Edit - I edited my question from 'plane' to subterranean for more clarity but patriklundell's answer is still likely to rely with viewing more than 1 concurrent map at once.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 13, 2018, 02:19:56 pm
1. It was stated on the development page that our adventurers could receive support for artifact quests, what would this support entail?Here's an answer from an earlier FotF reply (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7553641;topicseen#msg7553641):
Quote
QuoteWhat was going to be covered in the dev item "support for the journey" (seems to have been skipped for this time?)? Is that something like hiring hill dwarves and such to assist? Or sending ahead word for supplies to be prepared?Yeah, we were hoping to have some helpful, say, hearthpeople go along, and perhaps give you some free access to food/equipment etc. We wanted it to be unlike the typical we-won't-help-you-but-please-save-the-world quest givers, but we didn't get there. The ducks don't seem to line up well on anything even tangentially related to economic stuff, because there are some formalities missing and everything ends up being too much of a too-large placeholder. Got closest to having helpers, but something came up even in that case. Don't recall what. We'll get there eventually.
Post by: thvaz on March 13, 2018, 05:43:07 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 14, 2018, 05:54:30 am
I'm mostly wondering what provoked the decision first. I'd be tempted to ask whether "dwarven santa" is a future plan but that's both unlikely to be relevant to any development arc, and something no sane player will likely do. XP
Post by: GoblinCookie on March 14, 2018, 07:15:58 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 14, 2018, 07:44:07 am
You talked at lot earlier about a myth editor. What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean an actual program that allows us to modify the actual mythology of a generated world, a set of world-gen parameters manually entered in prior to initiating the myth generation or an actual script internal to the DF program which takes moddable raws as input and 'edits' the default mythology script's output. I would prefer the latter arrangement, so we could define that for instance the moon will originate from the sun, but the generator will determine randomly exactly how that happened.Editing myths will be part of the world editor, which is for creating fixed worlds so you could create middle-earth, populate it with all of Tolkien's creation myth, historical characters, rings, silmarils, sites like Moria and Minas Tirith, etc.
Doubt it'll all be possible in the first version of course.
And the mythgenerator itself will have raw settings as shown in the demo, but probably more detailed.
But, yeah, I'll sure that's not everything, would love to hear more about how it's all going to work.
Post by: Beag on March 15, 2018, 08:40:21 pm
2. Another thing listed among the candidates is pets and mounts for our adventurers, would we only be able to acquire these pets and mounts at character creation or could we tame creatures out in the world post character creation to be our pets and mounts?
3. Will skills relating to animal handling and riding be added to account for the new pets and mounts?
4. Going back a bit, in Cado's Magical Journey it was stated in the mechanics review at the end that becoming corrupted past a certain threshold might grant you special powers, would these corruptions related powers be listed in the myth generator?
Post by: KittyTac on March 15, 2018, 09:53:36 pm
Post by: EPM on March 16, 2018, 05:10:16 pm
Does this include self-motivated "supervillains" that operate at world-level? As it stands, the goblin civ leader-type demons and very old vampires/necromancers are the closest we have to what I'd call true 'villains', though the planar stuff and magic release will probably introduce more. Megabeasts and titans are closer to rampaging wildlife, lacking greater motives. Thieves and even deadly ambushes or sieges are typically relevant to a single site, they're enemies but not villains with distinct motives. That's my own sense of semantics, however: A villain is a sapient character with a motive, rather than a beast or a minion.
For example, an elf that sets out to turn two human civs against each other using cover identities and assassinations.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on March 16, 2018, 06:03:53 pm
Post by: ZM5 on March 16, 2018, 07:50:32 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on March 16, 2018, 08:13:41 pm
Post by: kontako on March 17, 2018, 02:37:31 am
I apologise as the question isn't exactly about current development.
In the Creation myth and magic systems dev log you set a point for ancient races and their actions, do you intend to allow for large gaps in time between creation and play (something on the scale of 5000 after creation) - perhaps a length of time we can control as a slider when specifying our world whether we'd want to play just after creation or ages beyond.
In my mind it would use unspecified periods of time, with intermediate ages between creation and play.
Onto something slightly more relevant to current development
Would the 'Return of minor disruptive behavior and arrests' point enable us as fortress overseer to arrest citizens and visitors as we please?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 17, 2018, 08:25:43 am
So about villains.Hmm. As of now the only real "world-ending" threat would be goblins conquering sites and eventually taking over the world through wars, but that's not exactly something that happens quickly. Making a big enough hole in Hell for all the clowns to crawl out is something that should be fairly world-ending, but it isn't yet. If we want villains that adventurers can Save the World from, maybe the circus is where that can be accomplished before the myth and magic arc.
Does this include self-motivated "supervillains" that operate at world-level? As it stands, the goblin civ leader-type demons and very old vampires/necromancers are the closest we have to what I'd call true 'villains', though the planar stuff and magic release will probably introduce more. Megabeasts and titans are closer to rampaging wildlife, lacking greater motives. Thieves and even deadly ambushes or sieges are typically relevant to a single site, they're enemies but not villains with distinct motives. That's my own sense of semantics, however: A villain is a sapient character with a motive, rather than a beast or a minion.
For example, an elf that sets out to turn two human civs against each other using cover identities and assassinations.
Maybe you could see historical figures seeking immortality or to rule the world turning to trying to open up hell, in the hopes/deluded belief that the demons will help.
...I'm not sure if this warrants a suggestion thread.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 17, 2018, 01:06:22 pm
Making a big enough hole in Hell for all the clowns to crawl out is something that should be fairly world-ending, but it isn't yet.
It can occasionally cause a local apocalypse though. I dunno if it's provoked by a fort falling or being abandoned, but in some cases the demons disperse like post-abandonment dwarves do (which makes me ponder if it was the latter when I tested it), causing problems for the general area.
Post by: ZM5 on March 17, 2018, 02:16:59 pm
It does, admittedly, seem more like a "local, stoppable" apocalypse scenario though. I think I once suggested more complex, worldwide ones in the previous FoTF thread - who knows what we'll see once doomsday scenarios are actually a thing though.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 17, 2018, 02:58:07 pm
It does, admittedly, seem more like a "local, stoppable" apocalypse scenario though.
That's just a case of "not enough holes into Hell" though. :3
Post by: Nihilist on March 18, 2018, 04:04:54 pm
2. Now that armor can break, is there any plan to change how force penetrates armor? right now if armor is pierced,
the attack loses about 5% of it's force. This lead to all armor layers on a part tending to break at once. Maybe subtracting the value required to penetrate the layer from the remaining force?
Apologies if these are completely on topic, they're my first FoF questions.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 21, 2018, 05:05:14 pm
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on March 21, 2018, 05:30:25 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 23, 2018, 10:49:26 am
Im aware i asked a similar question on creature migrants gained anysuchow way in august last year (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7526005#msg7526005), in regards to making single non-standard and definitely player induced creature majority minor settlements for migrants over time in the strange way non-standard pops cross over from animals to people or arrive outside the fortress as adventurers if you wanted a more typical human only hillock full of ex-bards. But it's always interesting to hear about your opinions on the feasability of features as we get closer to the eventual goal and the current status of the systems are brought more into focus.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sitting around the meeting hall with all my barons, including the count of Gremlinburg trying to raise funds because wanton abandon with mischeviously pulling levers all the time native to their little race has caused the entire settlement to collapse into ruin for the fifth time in the last 20 years.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 23, 2018, 12:31:28 pm
Do you feel confident in your foward planning with this development step and ways that players may attempt to break the game with forced administrators or self-founded hillock sites in ways such as sending a troupe of half-pet half/citizen tamed gremlins from vanilla or modded creatures to be the the population or forced administrator?Multiple sized citizenry is rather annoying when it comes to clothing, at least if you want to outfit them with masterworks, as there is no way to control the production of items when it comes to quality. This is mitigated to some extent by the failure of "over clothing" and clothing items in uniforms (excluding underwear and cloaks) to work properly (as in: they actually wear the full uniform, rather than just a sock on one foot and a boot on the other, skipping the rest of the equipment for that body part pair). It doesn't help with shaped clothing items that block helmets either, as even if you don't produce those yourself, your greedy little buggers will be lightning quick to raid the battlefields for them. However, the production issues for armor worsened (in this sense: the overall concept is sound) as armor wear was introduced, as before that you just had to produce your full set of masterworks items once, while now you have to juggle replacements.
Im aware i asked a similar question on creature migrants gained anysuchow way in august last year (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7526005#msg7526005), in regards to making single non-standard and definitely player induced creature majority minor settlements for migrants over time in the strange way non-standard pops cross over from animals to people or arrive outside the fortress as adventurers if you wanted a more typical human only hillock full of ex-bards. But it's always interesting to hear about your opinions on the feasability of features as we get closer to the eventual goal and the current status of the systems are brought more into focus.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sitting around the meeting hall with all my barons, including the count of Gremlinburg trying to raise funds because wanton abandon with mischeviously pulling levers all the time native to their little race has caused the entire settlement to collapse into ruin for the fifth time in the last 20 years.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 23, 2018, 01:13:07 pm
I guess that filters down to the question in preparation, if there's a sudden influx of animalpeople migrants from a site you've just put your administrator over (it can happen if it's same site, goblin slaves can be multi racial and migrate as long as they're civilians in the midst of probably 100's of goblins) by imposing a civ alliegence how are they going to handle all the clothing requirements?
I mean its sort of evident that Toady does shy away from this issue a little bit, but its also a UI problem in which it is hard to determine at a glance without estimating from descriptors like 'they are tall' their actual height range. In a ideal world it would be something as simple as putting in a (d)etails option to simply choose a race and then apply a generic 'tall' 'small' and 'normal' range based off people on map and some presets or let the creator make it to their own dimensions.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 23, 2018, 02:24:00 pm
I'm not sure Toady is "shying away" from the issue: rather, it's not obvious how to implement it in such a way that it both provides player control (for those who want it) and ease of use. Guilds would be a potential point to rectify the issue whereby you could turn things around to have dorfs request production of items and then pick them up later, but you'd have to find a model whereby you're able to flow that down to cloth production->farming/husbandry in a manner that's possible to understand and control at the desired level of detail, including handling of shortages (you don't want some dorfs to go naked with the clothing having rotted off their bodies because other dorfs consistently manage to order new production at the slightest sign of wear (or just a desire to hoard stuff) when you don't have enough to keep everyone equipped.
Another issue is that a lot of clothing production means a lot of worn clothing disposal...
So far I haven't encountered anyone that won't wear race appropriate items.
Post by: Magistrum on March 23, 2018, 08:47:15 pm
Will we be able to set squad leaders to not fight?
Or at least not right away, only in the case of losing or somehow forced to, by bad circumstances.
Also, because I would like raids to be a heavier project:
Will there be support roles for raids, like haulers, pack animals and field medics for distant expeditions?
Now, for something more general:
Any plans for using Unicode characters, in interface or for tiles?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 23, 2018, 10:21:42 pm
Since the mortality rate for my inexperienced tacticians is the same as their underlings:I imagine these are more likely to be part of the about-to-be-introduced armies. Raiding squads are pretty minor in comparison.
Will we be able to set squad leaders to not fight?
Or at least not right away, only in the case of losing or somehow forced to, by bad circumstances.
Also, because I would like raids to be a heavier project:
Will there be support roles for raids, like haulers, pack animals and field medics for distant expeditions?
Post by: Beag on March 24, 2018, 11:52:03 pm
2. One of the things mentioned as a candidate for a pre myth and magic update feature is interrogating prisoners in both modes, in adventure mode will we have the option of using non lethal beatings to make a prisoner talk in addition to verbal coercion?
Post by: KittyTac on March 25, 2018, 12:38:22 am
1. How diverse will we be able to make our adventuring parties? For example could someone make a party of a human, an elf, a dwarf, a goblin, an animal person and a gorlack? Also can we make them of various statuses like having a demigod, hero and peasant in the same party?
You can do this already, so yes, pretty diverse.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on March 25, 2018, 12:48:11 am
Also now that we have a worldscreen can we expect to be able to build roads and/or tunnels to other places?
Post by: George_Chickens on March 25, 2018, 03:28:19 am
2. Are there any ideas that you had begun to implement in the past that were so difficult or gigantic that they were abandoned or put on the permanent backburner?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 25, 2018, 08:49:51 am
1. Can we expect procedurally generated recipe books and bar games before the magic release?No. They were part of taverns that were put off until tavern like things are looked at again (most likely economy, because why gamble or make unique meals if there's no profit to be made).
Next is magic (after the next 6 months of bugs, suggestions and army stuff is finished).
Post by: Inarius on March 25, 2018, 12:58:13 pm
Quote
Next is magic (after the next 6 months of bugs, suggestions and army stuff is finished).
Before that, a short arc about Villains & Plots, if i understood correctly the GDC talk staff
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 25, 2018, 04:03:42 pm
That's what we're in at the moment for the next 6 months. Armies, villains, etc. The dev page was updated a couple of weeks ago.QuoteNext is magic (after the next 6 months of bugs, suggestions and army stuff is finished).
Before that, a short arc about Villains & Plots, if i understood correctly the GDC talk staff
Post by: thvaz on March 25, 2018, 06:49:45 pm
Do you consider any system in the game as completely done (apart from bugs, etc)? Which ones?
Post by: KittyTac on March 25, 2018, 09:16:41 pm
Probably asked before, but my seach fu is weak...
Do you consider any system in the game as completely done (apart from bugs, etc)? Which ones?
Pretty sure the geology. Myth will add fantasy geologies, but the mundane geology is done.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 25, 2018, 10:14:12 pm
Think Toady said recently that needs a rewrite too (probably at the same time as mythgen fantasy rocks as that'll break save compatibility anyhow).Probably asked before, but my seach fu is weak...
Do you consider any system in the game as completely done (apart from bugs, etc)? Which ones?
Pretty sure the geology. Myth will add fantasy geologies, but the mundane geology is done.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 25, 2018, 11:47:45 pm
Pretty sure the geology. Myth will add fantasy geologies, but the mundane geology is done.
My utterly-worthless-for-stone-tools chert laughs at your idea of what "done" looks like.
Post by: Putnam on March 26, 2018, 04:48:05 pm
Post by: squamous on March 27, 2018, 06:28:44 am
2. Will we be seeing any new civilizations pop up any time soon, like above-ground tribes or independent bandit entities?
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 27, 2018, 12:06:47 pm
1.It was mentioned in the upcoming feature section that adventurers could gain positions of nobility and engage in intrigue and conspiracy and whatnot. As political marriages are a major part of many fantasy settings, could we expect some sort of rudimentary courting or marriage system in the near future?
2. Will we be seeing any new civilizations pop up any time soon, like above-ground tribes or independent bandit entities?
Limey green please, no dark goblin greens.
Mixed racial marriages are not really a thing in DF (in terms of marrying for love & family), it'd have to be with a dwarf leader (typically) or dwarven civilisations if that's the scope you are thinking of, which may be impractical but maybe possible if you have a specifically groomed non-dwarf candidate or a non-dwarf king/noble. Not sure what Toady would be saying though about that honestly.
Necromancers already have a site group name funnily enough, so i guess they are a faction 'of sorts' introduced but unless toady decides to follow up on a rework of how the bandit & necro tower sites are built up and maybe gets a little bit too carried away exploring that i guess not too much will happen in that area outside of the development candidate brief. No dedicated necro faction i guess.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 27, 2018, 03:52:50 pm
Well, I'd say mixed racial marriages are currently not implemented/supported by DF, but if I understand it correctly, it's more a matter of figuring out to handle half breed offspring (and implement it) than a world thing, as I think at least one Threetoe story (Cado's Magical Journey?) has a human mage hooking up with a dwarf.1.It was mentioned in the upcoming feature section that adventurers could gain positions of nobility and engage in intrigue and conspiracy and whatnot. As political marriages are a major part of many fantasy settings, could we expect some sort of rudimentary courting or marriage system in the near future?
2. Will we be seeing any new civilizations pop up any time soon, like above-ground tribes or independent bandit entities?
Limey green please, no dark goblin greens.
Mixed racial marriages are not really a thing in DF (in terms of marrying for love & family), it'd have to be with a dwarf leader (typically) or dwarven civilisations if that's the scope you are thinking of, which may be impractical but maybe possible if you have a specifically groomed non-dwarf candidate or a non-dwarf king/noble. Not sure what Toady would be saying though about that honestly.
Necromancers already have a site group name funnily enough, so i guess they are a faction 'of sorts' introduced but unless toady decides to follow up on a rework of how the bandit & necro tower sites are built up and maybe gets a little bit too carried away exploring that i guess not too much will happen in that area outside of the development candidate brief. No dedicated necro faction i guess.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 27, 2018, 04:15:21 pm
It's just a matter of taking the time to figure it out. Once procedural raws for regular races is a thing in mythgen, it's only a matter of time before the great cross-species generator sucks up 6 months of Toady's time.
But, as for current development, I think "Gaining civ-level entity positions (e.g. baron) by reputation or intrigue" in this case is more likely just referring to assassination.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 27, 2018, 09:28:49 pm
Are you going to use the new detailed battle system from raids in regular worldgen? Or would that slow it down too much? Would be nice to see some of the new info on superior tactics, terrain and such in historical battles. I suppose hist-figs don't have generated equipment in worldgen, do they?
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 27, 2018, 09:54:03 pm
Assuming it's not doing this already, perhaps it is:
Are you going to use the new detailed battle system from raids in regular worldgen? Or would that slow it down too much? Would be nice to see some of the new info on superior tactics, terrain and such in historical battles. I suppose hist-figs don't have generated equipment in worldgen, do they?
It isn't. See issue here: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10664 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10664)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 27, 2018, 10:05:01 pm
Yes, I saw that. Since someone thought to report it as a bug, I wondered if the new system was actually being used but reports weren't happening or if the new system simply isn't being used. The report seems inconclusive either way but I assume it's just that the system's not being used. Hence my question.Assuming it's not doing this already, perhaps it is:
Are you going to use the new detailed battle system from raids in regular worldgen? Or would that slow it down too much? Would be nice to see some of the new info on superior tactics, terrain and such in historical battles. I suppose hist-figs don't have generated equipment in worldgen, do they?
It isn't. See issue here: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10664 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10664)
Post by: squamous on March 28, 2018, 12:30:24 am
1.It was mentioned in the upcoming feature section that adventurers could gain positions of nobility and engage in intrigue and conspiracy and whatnot. As political marriages are a major part of many fantasy settings, could we expect some sort of rudimentary courting or marriage system in the near future?
2. Will we be seeing any new civilizations pop up any time soon, like above-ground tribes or independent bandit entities?
Limey green please, no dark goblin greens.
Mixed racial marriages are not really a thing in DF (in terms of marrying for love & family), it'd have to be with a dwarf leader (typically) or dwarven civilisations if that's the scope you are thinking of, which may be impractical but maybe possible if you have a specifically groomed non-dwarf candidate or a non-dwarf king/noble. Not sure what Toady would be saying though about that honestly.
Necromancers already have a site group name funnily enough, so i guess they are a faction 'of sorts' introduced but unless toady decides to follow up on a rework of how the bandit & necro tower sites are built up and maybe gets a little bit too carried away exploring that i guess not too much will happen in that area outside of the development candidate brief. No dedicated necro faction i guess.
Oh I was just thinking about marriage in general, not more complex stuff like inter-species marriages. Just that if you're a baron it'd make sense you'd get hitched and start a dynasty.
As for the second response I figured it'd probably be like that, I was just thinking about the new bandit fortress feature that might be happening.
Post by: DG on March 28, 2018, 04:50:57 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 28, 2018, 05:33:10 am
With minor modding the current game allows fort mode to be played with humans, goblins, elves and even kobolds. Presumably this hasn't made it into vanilla because they aren't as feature complete as dwarves and not yet differentiated enough. Is the work around the myth generator likely to change this? I assume some work will need to go into shoe-horning randomly generated high-magic-world races into fortress mode and am wondering if you think this will end up incorporating the original races as playable in vanilla at the same time or if they will wait for their own specific releases focused on the features you want present before making them playable?A completely mundane world has only humans, so unless those worlds would be playable only in adventure mode (which seems rather unlikely) humans will have to be fleshed out, and you have the same issue at the chaotic end of the spectrum. Thus, at least one race ought to be playable in fortress mode for every setting of parameters, and preferably all of the "civilized" ones should be. The completely mundane setting can be handled by hand crafting humans, but the chaotic end would need a high degree of procedural adaptation to the world/race properties, and if that issue is handled there, it ought to be possible to apply it throughout to all races. Even so, that might not rule out a situation where the functionality remains geared towards the current dwarves, with logical options being absent/not yet implemented for other races. The current modding option is to create different looking dwarves, possibly with some functionality removed, but little added (shaping trees into housing for elves, vitamin D deficiency for humans and elves when spending too much time away from the sun...).
Post by: ZM5 on March 28, 2018, 07:26:16 am
I wanna add onto the above-ground tribe question - are there any plans for additional tokens that would allow megabeasts and sentient wild creatures to spawn with weaponry, whether they are named artifacts or just mundane equipment? It would certainly allow some of the semimegas, especially the minotaurs, to be a lot more formidable - along with that aboveground animal people could spawn with clothing instead of being nudist tribes.
2. Will we be seeing any new civilizations pop up any time soon, like above-ground tribes or independent bandit entities?
Also, were we to see aboveground tribes of animal people, how would they be handled? Would they be considered minor entities, similar to the underground animal people currently in, or would they have a separate system? I'm mostly concerned for modding purposes since IIRC there was some issue with underground animal people where if they're considered parts of these tribes it also doesn't let them join civilizations and be playable in that way. I don't remember if that still holds true, admittedly.
Post by: DG on March 29, 2018, 05:45:40 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's a good point about purely mundane worlds having only humans and thus necessitating that they be playable in fortmode. :) It probably should have occurred to me before I asked the question. I guess as ever Toady will have to stay disciplined and be wary of chasing down thousands of related tangents.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 29, 2018, 05:52:36 am
He did actually mention mundane adventurer only worlds. But it might just have been pondering.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's a good point about purely mundane worlds having only humans and thus necessitating that they be playable in fortmode. :) It probably should have occurred to me before I asked the question. I guess as ever Toady will have to stay disciplined and be wary of chasing down thousands of related tangents.
Meh, since "adventurer" is about to include leading armies into battle and tactical skirmishing, don't think it's too bad of a thing.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 29, 2018, 07:57:32 am
He did actually mention mundane adventurer only worlds. But it might just have been pondering.
Meh, since "adventurer" is about to include leading armies into battle and tactical skirmishing, don't think it's too bad of a thing.
Candidates. Candidates, people, some things may or may not appear. We don't even have a army to command in any particular mode just to outline the distance between here and there, but we do have militia squads, which practically are little militarized companion troupes of sorts.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 29, 2018, 08:25:58 am
Armies is the point of the next 6 months of updates according to the Bay12 report (plus villains - PC Gamer).
He did actually mention mundane adventurer only worlds. But it might just have been pondering.
Meh, since "adventurer" is about to include leading armies into battle and tactical skirmishing, don't think it's too bad of a thing.
Candidates. Candidates, people, some things may or may not appear. We don't even have a army to command in any particular mode just to outline the distance between here and there, but we do have militia squads, which practically are little militarized companion troupes of sorts.
Sure, we might not get far enough to play with them in Adventurer by the end, but we should be close enough to get it thrown into mundane worlds during mythgen.
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on March 30, 2018, 08:19:10 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 30, 2018, 08:46:23 am
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Will we be able to interact with deep dwarves (dwarves living in Mountain halls) as well? The dev plans for the near future exclusively talk about ”hill dwarves” which I assume only means dwarves living in hillocks.
- Are we likely to see some subterranean map interface & the Deep-Dwarves this cycle before the Magic Arc?
I've already asked this question previously in the thread for next month's upcoming reply so i'll lump it together for you and Toady's benefit. Heres me hoping that deep dwarves don't slide away as a development goal entirely in favour of procedural races before everything is shook up so violently by the magic arc generator's random structure.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 30, 2018, 08:59:32 am
I don't know of course, but Toady's mentioned that the underground is in a really bad state and needs to be overhauled a lot before the underground civs get any love. While I think he was talking about batman at the time, I imagine this might effect the birth of deep dwarves too. Still, let's see what happens. For army raising and such, they're mostly abstract like hill dwarves so maybe it'll be OK.Quote from: FantasticDorfWill we be able to interact with deep dwarves (dwarves living in Mountain halls) as well? The dev plans for the near future exclusively talk about ”hill dwarves” which I assume only means dwarves living in hillocks.
- Are we likely to see some subterranean map interface & the Deep-Dwarves this cycle before the Magic Arc?
I've already asked this question previously in the thread for next month's upcoming reply so i'll lump it together for you and Toady's benefit. Heres me hoping that deep dwarves don't slide away as a development goal entirely in favour of procedural races before everything is shook up so violently by the magic arc generator's random structure.
Post by: Oreos on March 30, 2018, 03:39:44 pm
*Will Adventurers be able to raise, and command armys to attack, raid, destory, or take over town/cites/forts/etc.?
*Will Adventurers that control a town/city/fort/etc... be able to issue commands to the city to focus on one thing (Like trading, building, expanding, or training a army)?
*Will Adventurers beable to research magic on their own, and be able to enchant objects with said magic?
*How Powerful can an Adventurer become magic wise? Will it be based on a stat?, and if so can they ascend to godlike magical abilities, or will there be a upper limit?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 30, 2018, 04:34:38 pm
I have a few questions about Adventure Mode and Magic I would like to ask.First, you should define a timeline. "In the future", yes all of that is up for happening. No concrete plans for the far future of course.
*Will Adventurers be able to raise, and command armys to attack, raid, destory, or take over town/cites/forts/etc.?
*Will Adventurers that control a town/city/fort/etc... be able to issue commands to the city to focus on one thing (Like trading, building, expanding, or training a army)?
*Will Adventurers beable to research magic on their own, and be able to enchant objects with said magic?
*How Powerful can an Adventurer become magic wise? Will it be based on a stat?, and if so can they ascend to godlike magical abilities, or will there be a upper limit?
Second. Dev notes were updated this month including adventurers leading armies as a possibility for something happening in the next few months, so yes. Read the dev notes.
Post by: King Zultan on March 31, 2018, 04:11:33 am
Will outsider adventures be able to make up there own poetry, dance, and musical styles at some point in the near future?
Post by: Magistrum on March 31, 2018, 09:25:21 am
Will rebel groups be able to form their own distinct civilization?
Instead of just having war with your own civ, or moving back to your original civilization.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2018, 05:05:29 pm
Because it hasn't been asked for this release yet:Do you mean the bandit groups and 'better necromancer towers'? I don't see "rebel groups" mentioned.
Will rebel groups be able to form their own distinct civilization?
Instead of just having war with your own civ, or moving back to your original civilization.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 31, 2018, 05:35:11 pm
Because it hasn't been asked for this release yet:Do you mean the bandit groups and 'better necromancer towers'? I don't see "rebel groups" mentioned.
Will rebel groups be able to form their own distinct civilization?
Instead of just having war with your own civ, or moving back to your original civilization.
Tied into conspiracies & generally implemented insurrections i think, i mentioned it a while ago in the old thread in a related question for the 2016 december Fotf (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7312290#msg7312290)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Seems meaningfully relevant now we're actually being delivered to a point where conspiracies & more use for criminal elements like assassins are tangible candidated goals.
Post by: Toady One on March 31, 2018, 05:53:49 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Specifically which portions of the rest of the Improved Sieges notes (besides prisoner stuff) are you leaning towards leaving us with before the Big Wait?
Not the traps or moving fortress sections bits, as they are premature without the boat-style stuff (or whichever comes first, but we'll want the map rewrite.) More the thinkering and improvements to soldiers bit. Possibly digging, but we're not going to hit everything.
Quote
Quote from: RubikIn the actualized development log there's ''ability to interrogate prisioners(both modes)
Can this be understood as that we'll finally get torture and good cop bad cop in fort mode?Quote from: BeagOne of the things mentioned as a candidate for a pre myth and magic update feature is interrogating prisoners in both modes, in adventure mode will we have the option of using non lethal beatings to make a prisoner talk in addition to verbal coercion?
Nope. Dwarves have [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:UNTHINKABLE]. At the same time, they do hammer people to death, and might also be able to form a rapport with their target, so it's possible we'll see multiple interrogation methods. The baseline is just having some interaction/narrative moments with captured people that advance villain and other 'stories' by giving you information to act upon.
Quote
Quote from: AsinCould you please elaborate on "adventurer party support" in the "Improved Character Creation" section of the development page?Quote from: BeagHow diverse will we be able to make our adventuring parties? For example could someone make a party of a human, an elf, a dwarf, a goblin, an animal person and a gorlack? Also can we make them of various statuses like having a demigod, hero and peasant in the same party?
As a prelude to certain myth/magic stuff, I wanted to entertain having the player be in control of multiple entities. A nice hopefully straightforward way of doing this that fits our previous dev goals is having a party rather than a single adventurer, like a certain lineage(s) of RPGs. So you'd be able to create a party using a modification of the current adventurer creator (without many restrictions, I'm thinking; they wouldn't have to have shared backgrounds, though maybe you'll be able to define relationships, time permitting), and then either control a single one of them as you do now (with an ability to switch freely, or not, depending on how you choose it to be in creation), or control all of them simultaneously during more tactical moments (this would be slow, especially as it doesn't work on an AP-style or real-time system, but you'd be able to switch back and forth, so you could just do the important bits.) This is theoretically very easy to do, provided I abide by certain restrictions like not being able to switch to a party member that isn't in the local area (or if I do, handling the map offloading, combat consequences etc etc, which is why I lean against it for a first pass).
Later, any number of metaphysical situations could fall under this same umbrella, whether it's controlling multiple avatars of the same deity, or mind control, or multiple possessions, or mental connections with a bunch of animals, etc etc, and it should all work out of the gate if the party system is working.
Quote from: Putnam
How could "Reflecting on negative circumstances that were missed while drunk" work given that drunkenness is a syndrome? Some sort of syndrome effect?
Ah, sorry, it's not directly related to syndrome changes at all. What I meant by this was that it is silly that they get "felt nothing when their child died" just because they happened to be (really) drunk, and they don't care even when they sober up. There'll be some retention and reflection upon circumstances with some personality modifiers, so the important moments in their life can be revisited and have emotional effects, possibly lingering for years, allowing the long-term stress etc. to come into effect if the dwarf ever has a sober moment; this'll also let the game have a handful of events that sort of define where a given dwarf is at right now -- whether this leads to "character development" in the form of longer-term personality/value changes etc., I'm not sure, but whatever I do here will contribute to that.
Naturally this also applies to positive circumstances, forming a core of strength for them to rebuild from; the dev page has that common negative case listed, but it'll be a general system.
It'll all be part of the stress balancing stuff, and hopefully I can make all the changes listed there work together. There are various landmines such as an obsessive, cheerless dwarf taking one small event and ruining their life with it as it festers in the long-term memory buffer... maybe this isn't a bad thing, but if it's too predictable or common or powerful, it'll just make the game broken differently than it's broken now.
Quote from: ZM5
Are you planning on expanding the dark pits/fortresses, hillocks, hamlets, and smaller forest retreats to have similar "facilities" as towns do?
I notice dark pits sites have taverns, libraries and so on listed in legends, but they don't actually exist in the game proper. I don't recall seeing those abstract locations for hillocks, small forest retreats and hamlets, but those could definitely use having small versions of those. Hillocks and dark pits in particular seem like they need some improvements, considering they seem to lack armory areas, and drinking mounds dont even have furniture or booze.
Secondly, is the small size of current mead halls intentional? I noticed that after 44 they're a lot smaller than pre-44, and don't seem to ever go as many z-levels down as before.
Yeah, we didn't get to everything, so there are some weird abstract buildings that aren't realized. Not sure when I'll loop back around.
The mead halls were intentionally made smaller; I'd like the spaces to reflect some purpose, instead of just having random large partitions that don't do anything, although I didn't get fully there. I expect them to oscillate as more functions come into play over the years; this applies to all the larger buildings, including the big goblin towers and so forth.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
All this launching of wars, attacking, assasinating and interrogation of gorlak prisoners is fantastic stuff, but there's an issue with dwarf ethics/values right now which makes npc dwarf sites never, ever launch attacks against their enemies.
I know it's not hardcoded because I copy/pasted my 'bad dwarf' modded race (who were attacking in worldgen) values/ethics into the dwarf entity and they started going to war. And of course regular dwarves will attack players who provoke them right now.
So, I guess my question is, are you going to nudge npc dwarf sites to be a bit more aggressive during wars this time around? It gets kind of lonely fighting by yourself.
Ah, I remember at some point saying I'd look at this, but it has sunk into the general notes. I'll check it for next release. To clarify again, this is after wars have already started, they don't participate?
Quote from: Manveru Taurënér
Do the plans for permanent changes to occur to myth-level elements during regular play include changes to races? It's a fairly common fantasy theme after all to have races be cursed and/or corrupted and become dark elves and whatnot.
Somebody mentioned that it can already happen in the myth generation prototype, and that leads to the same mechanisms being available during play; there are various little difficulties that pile up when transforming creatures, but we've (somewhat) handled them with things like werecreatures, so it seems possible, even if it starts rough around the edges (like everything else.) Turning races into other races or newly generated races is easier than altering an existing race (giving them horns, say.) This is related to the half-elf problem, and the centaur problem, and we'll need to tackle it all at some point, but it's difficult.
Quote from: Sooner535
Will combat speed be slowed slightly to allow players to look at fights better? I notice that once over 10 units get into a fight I don’t care enough to look which really hurts things imho, idk how much this would affect things but maybe a slight increase in body part HP or lowering of weapon damage? Or perhaps is this exactly how you want it to work as is and the showing of combat info will get better at some point?
Will you be able to read books in fortress mode eventually? Or even write the books?
Will we ever see larger shields introduced to the main game? Even just a tower shield that reduces speed slightly but has a higher chance to block would be acceptable (then you have buckler for speed, tower shield for defense, and shield for inbetween
Will we ever see a hobbits type fantasy race? More peaceful little guys that just farm and try and stay out of the way?
Changing the general speed of things is quite complicated, so I'm not leaning toward that; and there's nothing so simple as HP to alter. The summaries could certainly afford to be improved over the lengthy chronological reports.
Dwarves read and write books in fortress mode, though it only happens at the library, and books are only currently written by people with scholarly knowledge (I think.) That'll be expanded a bit over time.
I imagine we'll see other shields at some point. We lost one opportunity when I didn't do formations, and I still haven't done the main combat push yet.
I'm not sure about a halfling-style race in particular. They certainly fit the mood of popular fantasy the game is trying to emulate; the upcoming myth generator has generated all sorts of weird critters, but there's a sort of almost-human mold that it doesn't aim for yet.
Quote from: DoctorDorf
The last section in the starting scenarios mentions the relationship between the fort and hill/deep dwarves. Will we get to see the dwarves living around our forts demand things in return for their tribute? E.g. will they come to the fort for justice in disputes, or maybe as temporary refugees fleeing from an invading army? The theoretical idea of being surrounded by farming hillocks and have the fort focus only on government, mining & warfare could be really good!
That's part of the idea behind the framework rewrites leading up to the start scenarios, yeah; the ability to specialize and also being related to the broader world. The only bit there that might not happen is the refugee bit, as the number of people will likely outstrip what can be supported, so it'd have to happen more symbolically (some families only), or abstractly (sheltering near the fort, but not in it), or in dribbles (manageable numbers passing through the fort to safe areas above/below ground, depending on the threat.)
Quote from: Rubik
The 'medical improvements' listed in the dev log are for adv. mode only, or we also are gonna get improvements in fort mode healthcare?
Could you elaborate on the type of improvements you've thought?
Adventurers can't currently do anything, pretty much, but hope not to die; no splints, stopping bleeding, etc., and there is nobody to help them, even medical professionals that already exist in forts/towns can't help them. We'd like to start down a road of getting that toward fort standards. This process might have effects on the fort, as adventure mode work tends to put a microscope on dodgy systems, but there are no particular fort plans in advance for that particular dev item.
Quote from: Vivalas
All the updates recently related to the army arc make me really excited because I love how we can now interact with the world in meaningful ways. Is real-time battles with the full glory and gore of the combat system one of those things that will wait until the map rewrite? It's a bit silly maybe but I love thinking of how DF could rise to the top in yet another gaming genre as the best RTS / strategy game once the army arc gets more and more realized, albeit just in small steps for now. (Total War but in a procedurally generated world with detailed body simulation anyone?)
It's not possible to show off-site battles without the map rewrite, without fully retiring your fort for every battle. So it'll have to wait for that, but we're looking forward to it. Diplomatic missions and other situations that don't have to but might possibly go horribly wrong are also candidates for the off-site camera, and many other things.
We are vaguely thinking of toying with the ability to have multiple fort cameras to prepare ourselves for this, as a kind of addition to camera hotkeys (Bumber and others have suggested similar); mods might do this already, but it would be cool to have split panes or corner windows showing other parts of the fort or following people while you play, and it should be doable in an FPS-lite way (though caution is required.) Not sure exactly how that interacts with cursors etc., but it's figure-outable. This could then be linked into the off-site stuff when we get there.
Quote from: Mechanoid
Will the medical improvements to the military system extend to animals, pets, and mounts? To fortress mode so dwarves will operate a proper veterinary hospital service? Civilization Ethics behind putting down a pet or mount which is too badly wounded to live?
If the player can give items to companions, and mounts are kind-of those, would this allow player-controlled pack animals to exist? Mounts with war gear like armor/uniform? How will this be integrated into the military screen?
Finally fixing the "Amphibian mount drowns their rider" problem?
+ Will mounts/pets have to be fed by the player or are they abstracted to handle it themselves while traveling? Will fortress mode animals be feedable, finally, to avoid starvation while the fortress guard rides their war horses through the stone floor halls?
Don't have a particular veterinary plan at this point. I can see a future where adv mode medical + pets leads to a pretty sharp turn in that direction, though I'm not sure if that means little kitty splints and so forth.
Pack animals have been languishing on dev forever (in Trader role), and wouldn't be entirely hard to support at this point (once mount-style pets are in), though I'm not sure if they should use the full barter interface.
Dunno about particular bug fixes, but as usual, adv mode tends to put a microscope on things, and if players are dying all the time due to mount-water interactions, it'll be up there.
I imagine they won't require supplies at first, the same as companions. No particular plans for fort mode animals in near-term.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
1. Will armies be able to defect/rebel/desert/turn to banditry under the appropriate circumstances?
2. Similarly, once we are able to appoint administrators to conquered sites, will the sites be able to rebel?
3. Will we be able to send messengers to nearby sites to request military assistance in case of a siege? Or request additional troops from the Mountainhome to garrison the fortress?
4. Will passing armies sometimes request temporary hospitality at your fortress, with the ability to accept or refuse?
5. Will we be able to yield the fortress without a fight to invaders? Related, will there be mechanics for your own fort being occupied (such as a hostile garrison being put in place)?
1. There's nothing like that at this point.
2. Similar to #1, although there are a few more levers to make this one more likely in the shorter-term.
3. This is quite possible, though the specifics are up in the air. All the bits about off-site army orders and exchanging dwarves with the hills in the new dev section relate to this kind of thing.
4. Part of the problem is the number of soldiers being prohibitive occasionally, part of the problem is them not really needing it; sort of an economy/supplies critter.
5. The path toward this is slowly opening; having to send of tribute is a starter possibility. Other bits would take quite a bit of integration and might be best informed by the later scenario stuff, as there'll be more in-fortress politics there (making the support of occupiers easier.)
Quote from: Greendogo
Can you elaborate on the current efficiency of the program in terms of world building? Would you remark as to the feasibility of separating the world building part of DF into a separate slave-executeable which we could put on servers to allow worlds to be built by faster computers (probaby maintained by the community)?
I'm sure it's broken in some way, especially since I recall there being open bugs on it, but could this theoretically be accomplished through the existing command line stuff? I have no idea how servers work, but DF can be set to just make worlds and quit, and I know people have done this in the past.
Quote from: Fieari
How do you intend to make procedurally generated magic become "thematic"? Most fantasy works organize their magic around one or more themes, each theme having all magic working similarly. For example, some split magic into elements, or into schools. Brandon Sanderson is famous for particularly intricate magic systems... such as all magic requiring the user to ingest and "burn" metal inside their stomachs to cast spells. All fantasy magics that are more than fairytales have SOME organization to their magic.
I presume spheres would be involved. Will the RAWs have to expand to have lists of ways the spheres can influence magic? I know the myths will direct how magic works... but coherence is important! If a fire spirit is the source of magic in the world, how will the game know to make fire always part of the cost, or the effect, of the magic?
golemgunk and Shonai_Dweller mentioned using the creation myths for thematic consistency, and that's the starting principle we're going to work with. In the prototype, the spheres are linked to creators and creation methods and these are passed down the tree of causation; when a magic system is needed, magical effects attached to the proper spheres are preferred. It works pretty well on a very basic level. And we'll likely end up doing quite a bit more along those lines, criss-crossing the system with various conceptual linkages until it's vaguely good enough. Post-creation-myth actions can also be attached to spheres (or intermediate structures/concepts), so that, for instance, some grand betrayal in early historical world-gen can spawn a new magic system themed around deceptive effects.
There's a danger of being too on the nose sometimes, if you always go with the most obvious sphere, and we can try to leaven everything with some purely random elements, or have some higher-order procedural conceptual symbols that link together spheres more esoterically, something that can survive exposition but also give some more variability, e.g. the same way "fiery" can link up to "passionate" in some languages, and perhaps be linked to some canonical event or character.
Non-spherical rules can also arise from creation; if the universe begins with a primordial chaos of salt, and some creator turns salt into fire and water as a first step, then that universe's systems can respect 'salt' as the sort of basic element, with fire and water having a secondary but important status, and this can become a foundation for various generated systems. These have the fault of being somewhat random or rigid depending on the amount of guidance in their generation, but enough of these together should increase the variety a great deal, and pull the game away from "oh, there's a Fire God magic system again." Rules defining what life is and what happens during death, dreams, etc., can also interlink in non-spherical ways that enrich the systems, and we've discussed in the past using invisible personalities/'souls' to model half-living magical forces in ways that can link up with divination and miscasts in ways that go beyond tables and dice.
I'm hopeful things won't feel utterly mushy or random, nor too rigidly obedient to obvious connections, but it remains to be seen what we can actually pull off.
Quote from: deathpunch578
Will there be any limit to how powerful magic is?
Shonai_Dweller mentioned the existing costs in the myth generator, and certain sensible limits (the power for anybody to destroy the world at will is technically fine, but sort of inconvenient since you'd just have to roll up another world once history fails to complete). So there are restrictions we'd need to place in advance. However, we're quite intentionally going to let high-magic worlds upend typical balance, as that's part of the point of them. Manveru Taurënér mentioned Tales Foretold spells, and we're generally going to allow high coverage and high power when the player sets the parameters for it. It's quite likely that there'll be some very high-powered bits upon the first release that weren't completely reckoned with, and we'll have to decide what to do from there.
I'm starting out with the view that, say, a world where everybody can teleport at will is going to absolutely not catch even a good portion of what that implies, about how the world would change and which institutions would last and which new ones should exist, and whether there'd be a functioning society at all, but that it's still fun to (possibly) play in a world where more and more of it is tackled, rather than cutting the feature immediately in all worlds. The parameters should let us gate the odder stuff once we get a feel for it.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Have you considered asking the community to perform some bulk tasks where someone would take on the task to organize the collection of the results to return it to you in a "finished" shape?
It has mostly come up organically, and that's fine for now. Aside from the management issues, nothing ever seems settled enough to commit to "hey, it would be cool if everybody wrote up 800 lines of <effect A text> variants." I don't want to commission work that will be thrown out when the format gets cut to pieces by some procedural grammar issue later on (though in this case, they'd clearly be somewhat salvageable.) I haven't even been using my own formats -- the speech folder, for example, has been getting less rather than more use, with more and more hard-coded, because the proper flat file version of that has to respect various layered data insertions, and eventually procedural language systems that aren't even written yet. Aspirationally.
Post by: Toady One on March 31, 2018, 05:54:14 pm
Quote from: Grand Sage
With the work on sieges and raids, would you consider revising the old wield check bug, so that at least some of my dwarves can have mauls?
Also are mounts something we can look forward to before the big wait?
Why does the off-map fighting code use the highest tactician skill and not the one from the commanding officer?
Is the current tribute system the final solution, or are we going to get a more hostility friendly "pay or die" system?
I think thats it for now. Also, I really hope you go through with adding a messenger system, so that there is delay between order and execution. Actually, that triggers another question:
Will Messengers be a profession for themself, or are they just gonna be millitary people?
It hasn't come up, and isn't exactly the sort of thing that would here.
Mounts for adventurer mode are up on dev. Dunno about the fort, as it's a bit more work.
I believe there's a bit where it checks for position responsibilities, which might promote the militia commander regardless of skill, but it doesn't do it for every squad leader. And I'm not sure it's keying on the right responsibility.
I'm not sure how tribute'll change. It's way too early to call it the final system. You can always raid when they refuse, so it's not too far off that, but I understand sticking it all together.
Both systems exist in life, and I'm not sure what we'll go with here. It might be annoying if a single squad member goes off-site for long periods, unless the squad is specifically set up as a messenger squad or something.
Quote from: Eric Blank
With tribute being offered from subjugated sites now, will that translate to recieving tribute and/or taxes from sites which belong to a land-holder position or monarch in your fort? Can we recieve slaves or war prisoners if our civ permits them?
Do you think these items would be private property of that noble or fort property? Would they hoard items/creaturea they like and distribute the rest?
Might we also see tribute for heroic deeds performed by one of our dwarves, say slaying a beast that killed many people?
Yeah, eventually this should link up with the proper, existing land-holder stuff; dev has some words to that effect, though it mixes uncomfortably with some of the start scenario stuff. Dunno about respecting mods; that always lags behind a bit.
Property in particular is the start scenario bit that is just not settled. There are all sorts of ways to cut it, even with one object or plot of land multiple ways, and we'll be trying to explore that properly then. Until then, I'm totally skipping it. The general idea for fort mode is that you'd officially represent some entity, and the non-personal part of the noble might be included in that, or an on-map noble might be in conflict with your interests (and not in the silly repercussionless drown-the-nobles way we have now.) The hope is that a lot of this would come out of the focus and the systems, and that, for instance, changing focus in some way to a different entity would work; for instance, changing to 'be' the new government formed after a prisoner uprising, rather than losing the game. I don't yet understand how that should go, though. It seems like the sort of thing that requires certain limits to avoid disrupting the play/narrative flow.
Rewards for heroic deeds make sense; we failed once to add them, I think, along with the support for the journey stuff. That all sort of flows together, the interest in having some forms of sensible tangible gratitude with practical benefits for everybody (except the beasts.)
Quote from: Beag
2. On the updated development page one of the pre magic release candidates is showing personal relationships with people. What personal relation ships that you can think of do you think you will include before the myth and magic arc and what effects would these relationships have on gameplay if any?
3. Another thing listed on the updated development page is the ability to acquire positions in civilizations, how would our adventurer's go about acquiring these positions and what game play effects could they have if any?
4. Finally yet another thing listed on the updated development page is medical improvements for adventure mode, what ways of tending to our adventurers medically do you have in mind? Furthermore will our adventurers be able to acquire skills related to medical care?
2. Ah, this won't be anything new. Just things like companions/former companions and so forth that might otherwise get lost in the mess of the 'Q' screen.
3. It all kind of depend on how far the military bits go. You can imagine getting a barony through building various reps with the civ (the 'where' part is another question), but it would help if you could do something relevant with your hearth (if you have one.) It also ties into the villain bits somewhat; if a hearth/barony goes rotten, you might be elevated by dealing with it. The "intrigue" portion there is just flirting with the idea of player-led villain antics. Some of that depends on how, say, advisor/agent-driven plots unfold when we do villains. It should be difficult to win a barony without traditional rep-building actions, but social skills should matter somewhere, though we'll have to do it without lying (other than identities.)
4. Just the current dwarfy stuff. I assume (lack of) skill will come into play, though it'd only be obtainable through practice or chargen as things stand.
Quote
Quote from: FantasticDorfDo you personally see your current development progress in this quarter as the unofficial hurrying of the 'Hill Dwarf' arc forward before the Magic Arc or do you think you are being conservative with saving advanced development of the Hill Dwarf arc for later?
Are we likely to see some subterranean map interface & the Deep-Dwarves this cycle before the Magic Arc?Quote from: Daniel the FinlanderWill we be able to interact with deep dwarves (dwarves living in Mountain halls) as well? The dev plans for the near future exclusively talk about ”hill dwarves” which I assume only means dwarves living in hillocks.
Hmm, it's not everything the hill dwarves were going to bring, so it's somewhere in between, assuming I get to a lot of the candidates. The whole bit with fairs and markets and other embark-scenario-feeling tie-ins won't be there, but some exchange with associated sites and the army bits are certainly in Hill Dwarf territory.
Shonai_Dweller mentioned the state of the underground; it just didn't end up quite as usable as I thought it would be. The game gets confused by armies with underground coordinates, which complicates everything else. The map rewrite will gut that system and the 5 layer map and everything else, so it's prudent to wait now, and hopefully emerge into a better-thought-out map system that can more easily support movement in vertical directions.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
What was the first thing that came to mind that led to the player being unable to exchange items with children NPCs in adventure mode?
I don't recall what came up first. All the reasons you listed were reason enough, though!
Quote from: GoblinCookie
You talked at lot earlier about a myth editor. What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean an actual program that allows us to modify the actual mythology of a generated world, a set of world-gen parameters manually entered in prior to initiating the myth generation or an actual script internal to the DF program which takes moddable raws as input and 'edits' the default mythology script's output. I would prefer the latter arrangement, so we could define that for instance the moon will originate from the sun, but the generator will determine randomly exactly how that happened.
There's the ability to set parameters for myths (where your moon example would likely arise, similar to the current raw files; the prototype already has txt astronomical bodies, but not their causation), but generally when I talk about a "myth editor", it's different from that (though possibly linked.) On the editor side, I'd like people to be able to define and interlink objects as they please, without relying on generators. It'd likely be within DF, but hopefully all compatible with raw-style files if you'd rather work in a text editor (and possibly the text editor would be the first release starting point for it, I'm not sure.)
But yeah, there's this interesting half-way point, where the generators do part of the work; things already work that way with all the raw files in DF, there just needs to be some additional tags and files to control a bit of the myth flow. The editor itself might also include generators, so that if there are bits of your hand-crafted setting you don't want to do, it can just, say, generate a side pantheon for you, or let you sample several mythical event chains and you can keep-and-tweak the one you like. We'll start with some stuff and let people go from there. I can also see us outpaced by mod utilities on a lot of this once the format is settled and we've moved on to embark/property stuff, assuming we get there in the first place.
Tricky part seems to be the other editors, for worldgen/postworldgen, which ostensibly include things like site maps. Hopefully that won't completely outgrow the friendly text format, but it seems hard to avoid.
Quote from: Beag
1. In the list of candidates for pre-magic release features one of them is our adventurers giving tactical commands to their companions, what sort of commands might we be able to give our companions in battle? Would it be just basic stuff like attack or hold or do you have more in mind?
2. Another thing listed among the candidates is pets and mounts for our adventurers, would we only be able to acquire these pets and mounts at character creation or could we tame creatures out in the world post character creation to be our pets and mounts?
3. Will skills relating to animal handling and riding be added to account for the new pets and mounts?
4. Going back a bit, in Cado's Magical Journey it was stated in the mechanics review at the end that becoming corrupted past a certain threshold might grant you special powers, would these corruptions related powers be listed in the myth generator?
1. I don't have anything complex in mind, though a lot can happen in the development process if it's easy enough. But we could just end up with the basic attack this, save me, stay back, etc. mold of things.
2. The fort mode taming takes a while, but elf adventurers seem like they'd have the advantage here, the way things currently work. I'm not sure I'll do the lengthy taming process from fort mode, though that would eventually be fun. You might also be able to acquire animals in town, though that requires a bit of property-adjacent coding and hopefully isn't a nightmare.
3. This seems likely. Some sort of mechanics as well might be necessary, the interface between you and your mount. It seems weird to just let you move them exactly as yourself, but anything else is potentially too cumbersome.
4. It's possible; the prototype presents a lot of lists, but that's not the in-game format. I'm not sure how much exposition there'll be for any given element, versus things you should discover or learn in game. If it is well-known that 'faded' people can pass through walls, and they are common, this seems like something to present if there's enough exposition bandwidth overall. If the fort dwarves or adventurer are the first faded people in history, this seems like a moment of discovery.
Quote from: EPM
So about villains.
Does this include self-motivated "supervillains" that operate at world-level? As it stands, the goblin civ leader-type demons and very old vampires/necromancers are the closest we have to what I'd call true 'villains', though the planar stuff and magic release will probably introduce more. Megabeasts and titans are closer to rampaging wildlife, lacking greater motives. Thieves and even deadly ambushes or sieges are typically relevant to a single site, they're enemies but not villains with distinct motives. That's my own sense of semantics, however: A villain is a sapient character with a motive, rather than a beast or a minion.
For example, an elf that sets out to turn two human civs against each other using cover identities and assassinations.
Yeah, that's the idea, though often I imagine they'll be position holders or the existing sorts you listed operating with a new set of tools that providing a nested or branching structure to be discovered, with, as you suggest, some sort of larger exposable purpose. We don't have the framework for many of the common motivations, but we have enough to get started.
Quote from: kontako
In the Creation myth and magic systems dev log you set a point for ancient races and their actions, do you intend to allow for large gaps in time between creation and play (something on the scale of 5000 after creation) - perhaps a length of time we can control as a slider when specifying our world whether we'd want to play just after creation or ages beyond.
In my mind it would use unspecified periods of time, with intermediate ages between creation and play.
Onto something slightly more relevant to current development
Would the 'Return of minor disruptive behavior and arrests' point enable us as fortress overseer to arrest citizens and visitors as we please?
I'm still not sure how measured years are going to interact with the back-half of creation; I imagine it could be very fuzzy. But at some point, something will happen. There's no reason to stay on one calendar, but there is a point where the measurement starts to matter internally. Part of it has to do with location and historical figures; world gen proper is slow because so much is going on, and there can be an earlier, faster period, but it would also be fundamentally unsatisfying on certain axes, because the data just wouldn't be there driving the sim. It's going to take some experimentation with the actual program to see what works.
The ability to arbitrarily arrest people isn't tied to that item specifically, though I know some people have asked for it, and there'll be a new area introduced by all the villain stuff, like if you suspect somebody is up to no good but there isn't a crime listed on the justice screen. There'll have to be downsides to random interrogations, but that's easy enough to manage.
Quote from: Nihilist
1. Is making latched attacks(specifically bites) interact with armor layers again any where on the radar for the near future in bug fixing rounds? Right now an armless, legless elf is more dangerous than an limbed one. They also don't seem to respect armor deflections.
2. Now that armor can break, is there any plan to change how force penetrates armor? right now if armor is pierced,
the attack loses about 5% of it's force. This lead to all armor layers on a part tending to break at once. Maybe subtracting the value required to penetrate the layer from the remaining force?
1. Is it on the bug tracker?
2. It used to do that, but most of the momentum has to carry through or maces don't work at all, though with the newish application of force to parent parts (which is also troubled, according to the tracker), that isn't quite an issue, however a hit to the center part would need to be managed, including falls. There's probably something to do with the deflection modifier as well, since this is supposed to model force being directed away, but it only handles absolute deflections rather than lessening the damage from partial hits.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will a retired player fortress accept a tribute demand? What happens on unretire? Is there a check from the original demanders to notice if tribute isn't coming any more? Will they go to war over it?
Hmm, I don't think any of that is handled. I mean, I think they can be forced to pay tribute, but it'll be ignored on unretire (since the player can't currently pay tribute -- this is one of those things that will change in the future, at which point the unretire should also automatically work correctly.) Demanders don't care about unmet tribute requests; as with trade caravans, there is no tribute 'army' moving over the surface, since we haven't handled items yet (other than spoils and artifacts), so we just assume things are going smoothly until there's more reason to care.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Do you feel confident in your foward planning with this development step and ways that players may attempt to break the game with forced administrators or self-founded hillock sites in ways such as sending a troupe of half-pet half/citizen tamed gremlins from vanilla or modded creatures to be the the population or forced administrator?
As confident as usual, anyway. Many things get fixed afterward.
Quote from: Magistrum
Since the mortality rate for my inexperienced tacticians is the same as their underlings:
Will we be able to set squad leaders to not fight?
Or at least not right away, only in the case of losing or somehow forced to, by bad circumstances.
Also, because I would like raids to be a heavier project:
Will there be support roles for raids, like haulers, pack animals and field medics for distant expeditions?
Now, for something more general:
Any plans for using Unicode characters, in interface or for tiles?
I don't have particular plans for squad-member level settings. It kind of depends on how the army improvements bit works out, as it'll have more positional information to work with, and the position of the leader will probably be special, whether they charge in or not.
The support stuff is tied into economy matters, so I won't be doing that stuff now.
Unicode was one of the options, though we aren't actually working with text, so the options are broader and I'm not sure it'd be good to load in a giant unicode thingy into the texture atlas, however that would work. Certainly an extension of the characters available is becoming more and more of an issue, whether that means moving to a tileset or some hybrid approach to continue the traditional look of the project. But we're basically out of Code page 437 characters, and have been for a while.
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
With the Map-rewrite on the Horizon can we expect more nonmagical features as well? Stuff like Tablemountains, proper Canyons, postglacial landscapes with houssized boulders and the like that (iirc) planed once upon a time?
Also now that we have a worldscreen can we expect to be able to build roads and/or tunnels to other places?
Yeah, the map-rewrite is going to specifically allow neat nonmagical landforms structurally, whether they make it in or not at that time.
I'm not sure when to expect road/tunnel(/wall/etc) building; it'll be more likely when roads matter more (likely an economy thing.) Tunnels matter for travel, but we haven't really gotten into the underground civ connections yet for various reasons. So I think the world-spanning constructions will follow naturally after other features that make them matter more to the core experience.
Quote from: George_Chickens
Are there any ideas that you had begun to implement in the past that were so difficult or gigantic that they were abandoned or put on the permanent backburner?
The economy! He he he. I don't remember if there was anything else like that... we removed some of the previous magic stuff and turned it into the upcoming difficult and gigantic myth/magic stuff. Perhaps a lot of things are that way.
Quote from: thvaz
Do you consider any system in the game as completely done (apart from bugs, etc)? Which ones?
Does grass feel done? People can't pick and do things with flowers yet, and some other stuff, like collecting hay and so forth. Ignoring other liquids, I'm not sure water feels done, because of ice not being where it needs to be. People brought up geology, but we don't even have 3D veins yet (the map rewrite should give us a window on this), and there are so many other landforms and other bits we'd like to do there. More to be done with weather, but properly separated out, some of the basic cloud formation stuff is probably as good as we need or want to process. Everything else I can think of needs a ton of work, a lot of which is already on dev or otherwise noted, but maybe there's something. The things I've gotten full points for toward version 1.0 mostly still have work to be done that ties into other list items (say, job priorities and automation, or the move/attack split -- these things were accomplished in some basic sense, but will always have tweaks and helpful modifications to be made, or in the case of the manager/automation, giant optional additions that don't get me any 1.0 credit but will probably be done as we go anyway.)
Quote
Quote from: squamous1.It was mentioned in the upcoming feature section that adventurers could gain positions of nobility and engage in intrigue and conspiracy and whatnot. As political marriages are a major part of many fantasy settings, could we expect some sort of rudimentary courting or marriage system in the near future?
2. Will we be seeing any new civilizations pop up any time soon, like above-ground tribes or independent bandit entities?Quote from: ZM5I wanna add onto the above-ground tribe question - are there any plans for additional tokens that would allow megabeasts and sentient wild creatures to spawn with weaponry, whether they are named artifacts or just mundane equipment? It would certainly allow some of the semimegas, especially the minotaurs, to be a lot more formidable - along with that aboveground animal people could spawn with clothing instead of being nudist tribes.
Also, were we to see aboveground tribes of animal people, how would they be handled? Would they be considered minor entities, similar to the underground animal people currently in, or would they have a separate system? I'm mostly concerned for modding purposes since IIRC there was some issue with underground animal people where if they're considered parts of these tribes it also doesn't let them join civilizations and be playable in that way. I don't remember if that still holds true, admittedly.
We're not likely to do the marriage stuff in the near future. At this point, I'd prefer to do all the custom/law/property stuff before getting into adventurer-level considerations there, though that wouldn't be strictly required and hasn't mattered much up to this point.
New civs soon? No, but the procgen magic races should blow some things wide open. Same goes somewhat for the megabeast question. The myths have various new critters of this kind, and it may or may not be easier to handle equipment matters (in the way that vault critters can have equipment, for instance.)
I'm not sure how the aboveground animal people will work. It hasn't come together yet.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are you going to use the new detailed battle system from raids in regular worldgen? Or would that slow it down too much? Would be nice to see some of the new info on superior tactics, terrain and such in historical battles. I suppose hist-figs don't have generated equipment in worldgen, do they?
Part of it was always used there, well before any of this new stuff; I just didn't move over the new historical events yet. I thiiiink the new squad fighting can make it over too, but I'm not sure; it'd be a theoretical speed hit, but perhaps negligible. The hist-figs don't have generated equipment, but even in play, it has an equipment modifier it applies based on the available civ materials for people that haven't had inventories generated yet.
Quote from: DG
With minor modding the current game allows fort mode to be played with humans, goblins, elves and even kobolds. Presumably this hasn't made it into vanilla because they aren't as feature complete as dwarves and not yet differentiated enough. Is the work around the myth generator likely to change this? I assume some work will need to go into shoe-horning randomly generated high-magic-world races into fortress mode and am wondering if you think this will end up incorporating the original races as playable in vanilla at the same time or if they will wait for their own specific releases focused on the features you want present before making them playable?
It might be too much work to support them, and it would be pretty simple to ensure that one of the procgen'd races ticks enough of the fort mode necessities. Mainly the digging part, since outdoor constructions are still clunky. If we get to a point where an outdoor race would be fun to play, and has enough of its other bells and whistles respected, I'd be fine with that. It just doesn't feel like we are quite there. Overall though, I think procedural fort races will build a bit of that development pressure, the way things often work, since supporting their other quirks will be something that can be done more piecemeal without it feeling utterly broken... and then suddenly I might realize or be reminded, "oh, human castle mode is basically ready" or something like that. (naturally, the 17x17 sites wouldn't be supported due to memory concerns** -- another road into this is the scenario-related smaller work sites that everybody will have; "human lumber camp" is another possible path to playable humans.)
** (though without digging and with the map-rewrite, loading a 17x17 human embark suddenly becomes totally feasible, as the deep elevations which would normally blow-out memory and create an underground-life pathing nightmare could simply be ignored; though citizen path-finding would probably be slightly more costly as the map would be less compact -- that doesn't mean we'd be able to have all 10000 citizens of one of those human capitals loaded, but it does mean you could play a 200 person human 'town' with a small market and have the usual FPS problems, but no more than that)
Quote from: Oreos
*Will Adventurers be able to raise, and command armys to attack, raid, destory, or take over town/cites/forts/etc.?
*Will Adventurers that control a town/city/fort/etc... be able to issue commands to the city to focus on one thing (Like trading, building, expanding, or training a army)?
*Will Adventurers beable to research magic on their own, and be able to enchant objects with said magic?
*How Powerful can an Adventurer become magic wise? Will it be based on a stat?, and if so can they ascend to godlike magical abilities, or will there be a upper limit?
Dev has the basic ability to do some of this as a candidate for this pre-magic period.
There is no active economy in the towns, so this won't come up until we have that.
Research and enchanting are part of the magic release, yeah. There are any number of ways it could work; the idea of the creation myth generator is to build magic systems that work different ways. Ascension to godhood and stat-based magic are on the menu of possibilities.
Quote from: Zultan
Will outsider adventures be able to make up there own poetry, dance, and musical styles at some point in the near future?
I don't have particular plans to change that soon. They are just missing all of the cultural framework as part of their creation, and I'm not sure how we're going to handle that.
Quote from: Magistrum
Will rebel groups be able to form their own distinct civilization?
Instead of just having war with your own civ, or moving back to your original civilization.
Generally having new cultures able to form is a goal in changing the frameworks, after the magic stuff. History is bizarrely static right now, and the current frameworks are not easy to work with in those terms.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2018, 06:16:37 pm
Quote
Ah, I remember at some point saying I'd look at this, but it has sunk into the general notes. I'll check it for next release. To clarify again, this is after wars have already started, they don't participate?
According to Legends info (via, Legends Viewer - the diagrams are useful), when a Dwarf civ is in a war, they'll only ever be the defender (except in special cases caused by player raids). Looking at some wars right now with some 20-30 battles, Dwarf is never the attacker.
Now, some of those battles seem to involve clashing armies meeting half-way between sites, so they're not just sitting at home taking sieges. Maybe it just defaults them to "defender" because they didn't start the war overall? There are certainly no 'dwarf attacks site' events though.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 31, 2018, 06:39:40 pm
A war started in world generation, and ended very differently with a entirely different set of mechanics post-worldgen activating directly afterwards. Ill attach it to my note on the relevant bug report here (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10664#c38103)
DFFD Save link - http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13636
Save detail
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Post by: Toady One on March 31, 2018, 07:33:45 pm
According to Legends info (via, Legends Viewer - the diagrams are useful), when a Dwarf civ is in a war, they'll only ever be the defender (except in special cases caused by player raids). Looking at some wars right now with some 20-30 battles, Dwarf is never the attacker.
Now, some of those battles seem to involve clashing armies meeting half-way between sites, so they're not just sitting at home taking sieges. Maybe it just defaults them to "defender" because they didn't start the war overall? There are certainly no 'dwarf attacks site' events though.
The relevant personality facets are the same as humans. So far it seems to be that they are just out-populated, and think they are going to lose. A few overcame the risk rolls all the way up until it did the fortification calculation, and decided they couldn't field a large enough army.
There's one part of that calculation that's inconsistent in world gen (it predates the use of non-historical populations, so they weren't being figure in), but I'm not sure that'll change anything. The post world gen function is even mushier, but there's a speed issue there.
But I'm not sure it's even incorrect, the decision they are making, if the populations really are that way. Dwarves can outpopulate other people, but they only seem to get in wars with people that outmatch them (probably because they don't start wars, and others start wars they feel they can win?) But their war logic might be correct? It seems like I'm still missing something.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 31, 2018, 09:38:26 pm
Quote from: Random_DragonWhat was the first thing that came to mind that led to the player being unable to exchange items with children NPCs in adventure mode?
I don't recall what came up first. All the reasons you listed were reason enough, though!
Aw. No dwarven Santa? XP
Post by: Warlord255 on April 01, 2018, 12:25:27 am
1) Are you planning to add more interesting behavior tokens for use by generated and/or mundane creatures?
As it stands, most monsters don't seem very proactive. Randomly generated interactions are cool, and are slated to get a lot cooler, but active trouble-seeking behavior is limited to a handful of tags. CRAZED, MISCHIEVOUS, BUILDINGDESTROYER and CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER come to mind, but not much else. Is there hope for a CURIOUSBEAST_GOBBLER, perhaps, that could result in forgotten beasts that "hunger for metal" and go around eating swords, or Giant Termites/Beavers that devour your wooden items?
2) Are you planning to use existing tools more extensively for more generated magic weirdness?
The Modding forum has achieved some seriously strange effects with the existing system, and it might be worth your time to take a look for ideas. There's so much that's possible already - grasses with SYN_INGESTED that turn horses into unicorns, EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECT to spawn syndrome vapors when you butcher a magic animal, acid-puking bite attacks by removing ENTERS_BLOOD from venom... even coal dust and exploding cursed gemstones! Seeing these types of effects in the Magic update would be a real treat.
Hope that's not too many questions. Whatever else happens, keep up the good work, Toady! :D
Post by: Knight Otu on April 01, 2018, 04:39:44 am
Post by: Max™ on April 01, 2018, 05:21:47 am
Riding skill, training level, mount personality traits, all could contribute to pushing the activity from "100% my(the mount) path and goals" down towards 0% for them and 100% for you...
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 01, 2018, 05:50:24 am
I imagine this to be slightly different to the previous question on 'support roles' because already, goblins already employ trolls for off map conflicts implicitly of virtually any size without having to need to add any tags onto the creature themselves. It doesn't always turn out smoothly and you hear rumors about oddities like some trolls appearing wearing iron armor & others of goblins riding on their backs without much consistency as what to expect through a mixture of possibly buggy application.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 01, 2018, 07:13:00 am
"Will semi-intelligent combatant's role in conflicts be more streamlined by the time of better integration into raiding and armies of war animals and mounts?"Trolls and ogres wearing armor and wielding weapons is not odd. In all cases I've seen it they have full two part names and a military title (the ogre was a bowman, which is a role where its physical strength is really useful...). One theory I've seen is that they are ones who have gained enough training (becoming hist figs?) is a previous conflict to be upgraded from the "recruit" level (note that unarmed and unarmored "civilized" race recruits aren't uncommon in goblin armies). Beak dog warriors is off, though (I've never seen those myself).
I imagine this to be slightly different to the previous question on 'support roles' because already, goblins already employ trolls for off map conflicts implicitly of virtually any size without having to need to add any tags onto the creature themselves. It doesn't always turn out smoothly and you hear rumors about oddities like some trolls appearing wearing iron armor & others of goblins riding on their backs without much consistency as what to expect through a mixture of possibly buggy application.
Post by: thvaz on April 01, 2018, 07:13:53 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 01, 2018, 07:32:55 am
Trolls and ogres wearing armor and wielding weapons is not odd. In all cases I've seen it they have full two part names and a military title (the ogre was a bowman, which is a role where its physical strength is really useful...). One theory I've seen is that they are ones who have gained enough training (becoming hist figs?) is a previous conflict to be upgraded from the "recruit" level (note that unarmed and unarmored "civilized" race recruits aren't uncommon in goblin armies). Beak dog warriors is off, though (I've never seen those myself).
Whether they should or shouldn't is another thing entirely especially if its wrongly applied with its application on giving recruit status to creatures who have learnt fighting skills for alligator/horse recruits comparably etc. I've got a picture i pulled off a DF discord of beakies and trolls with single forenames. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/173888543419006976/426522387903938580/dfsasdasd.JPG
I mean there's no complaint to giving a troll a hammer if it's going to use it, but its no the same kind of equipping you'd find on intelligent fighters since they're not equals hence i asked the question whether something more concrete in definition would be put in.
Post by: Inarius on April 01, 2018, 08:11:32 am
Post by: ZM5 on April 01, 2018, 08:23:28 am
Don't really have an explanation for why some of the trolls/ogres end up having only a single name and others have both a name and a last name, along with armor. I suppose it'd be related to SLOW_LEARNER, leading to them being treated as some form of livestock, aside from the few individuals that get higher weapon skills.
I'm mostly thinking that because of some old sieges I had from some of my modded races - for example in this one (https://i.imgur.com/R4VQlEw.png), the regular ogres were a caste with slow learner, but as you can see some only have a first name while others have both a first name and a last name along with the recruit title. Same thing with the fel brutes in this screencap (https://i.imgur.com/XX0zEpK.png) - they were also a slow learner caste. I can't really explain why the named "puffalo recruit" is a thing though, considering they're just wild animals.
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 01, 2018, 09:33:02 am
About villains and the necessity to be intelligent to be a real villains (in opposition to "beasts"), I remember that Toady told someday that dragons and to a certain extent MB and titans could be intelligent and speak. So I suppose that could include them, too.
Toady's reply (spoilered) largely explains that the motivation and power structure needs to be built up, so that even [POWER] beasts can have tangible reasons and targets.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: ZM5
Regarding the alligator or other predatory animals getting recruit titles, I'd think its related to them just getting kills in worldgen, which comes with them also getting a name.
Could be, but its unlikely its down to any one singular cause like that.
A few notes @button mentioned on bug-tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9513#c34995) relevant talk about that full intelligent creatures jump into citizenship when they learn a skill especially i would say leaning towards a skill associated with a position like a broker, so something recursive might be occuring here for recruit selection. Kept in mind that semi-intelligent (and pet full intelligents) in play are difficult to handle and ignore pasture & training orders requiring micromanagement, burrows to force them into areas else they will continue following civilian routines.
Troll shearing operations for instance when they are modded into regular play as cleanly as possible bothersomely require a great amount of planning to establish a pernament living quarters for trolls in a burrow who elsewise will resist being pulled in to be sheared and remain queued to do hauling jobs without dwarf-therapist. Gremlins in vanilla regularly ignore prompts to train their pet status after they ascend into becoming a citizen as a long term citizenship petition. etc. etc.
Post by: Magistrum on April 01, 2018, 09:48:44 am
About villains and the necessity to be intelligent to be a real villains (in opposition to "beasts"), I remember that Toady told someday that dragons and to a certain extent MB and titans could be intelligent and speak. So I suppose that could include them, too.*Fixed bug where dragons would sometimes put on a beard and infiltrate dwarven society to spread disorder.
Once we get tributes going, will we get demands from the mountain homes, like food for metropolises and equipment when in war time? Will they bear any resemblance to the current noble demand system?
Post by: GoblinCookie on April 01, 2018, 10:00:11 am
Regarding the alligator or other predatory animals getting recruit titles, I'd think its related to them just getting kills in worldgen, which comes with them also getting a name.
Don't really have an explanation for why some of the trolls/ogres end up having only a single name and others have both a name and a last name, along with armor. I suppose it'd be related to SLOW_LEARNER, leading to them being treated as some form of livestock, aside from the few individuals that get higher weapon skills.
I'm mostly thinking that because of some old sieges I had from some of my modded races - for example in this one (https://i.imgur.com/R4VQlEw.png), the regular ogres were a caste with slow learner, but as you can see some only have a first name while others have both a first name and a last name along with the recruit title. Same thing with the fel brutes in this screencap (https://i.imgur.com/XX0zEpK.png) - they were also a slow learner caste. I can't really explain why the named "puffalo recruit" is a thing though, considering they're just wild animals.
The reason for most the differences that they are defined as pets in the entity, it does not have anything to do with their tokens. Armour will be related to skills, most probably. The extra names *may* come from having lots of kills, you get extra names if you kill enough historical people. Bugs may be involved in the situation as regards the names for intelligent pet creatures, it could be that it just gives them a regular two-part name rather than a full mass-murderer name, since they don't have a surname to begin with due to being pets(?).
Post by: ZM5 on April 01, 2018, 10:24:12 am
Quote
The reason for most the differences that they are defined as pets in the entity, it does not have anything to do with their tokens.You missed my point - they DIDN'T have pet tokens, and weren't defined as pets in the entity - they were a caste of the civs main race which just had SLOW_LEARNER. The "unarmed, unarmored, no last name" thing didn't happen with the non-slow learner castes. Civilized creatures tend to have both a first and last name regardless of their kills - obviously this didn't happen with those slow learner castes - some seemingly were treated the same way as trolls, others were normal recruits. So that's why I'm thinking there's something up with the slow learner token.
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 01, 2018, 11:10:22 am
Quote from: ZM5
You missed my point - they DIDN'T have pet tokens, and weren't defined as pets in the entity - they were a caste of the civs main race which just had SLOW_LEARNER.
[USE_EVIL_CREATURES] has implicit influence of adding [COMMON_DOMESTIC] like acquisition behaviour and non interfacable pet/livestock tags & war training to trolls which conflicts with existing issues surrounding the creature's restrained but not total lack of intelligence when put in realised play sort of like how [PET] had to be added to beak dogs & unicorns (the good creature diametric) after the raiding update because they were being taken, unusable with weird hostilities because for a long time they were a AI civ only accessory designed to be a unreachable game-adversary rather than a equal creature codewise taken for its [MOUNT] tag and not much else by systems outside the player's space.
Edit - whoops i completely missed your message too, i just had to reread it to make sure and yeah, that's a really weird application of a caste.
Before i feel like someone pipes in, should we move this discussion to a DF general thread if this clutters the thread up too much.
Back onto FotF talk, like toady said about 'human' lumber camps or when systems like managing slaves or lesser intelligent creatures becomes good enough to build around and slap on a sticker calling it a mode i guess it'll be focused under a microscope.
Post by: GoblinCookie on April 01, 2018, 12:16:39 pm
QuoteThe reason for most the differences that they are defined as pets in the entity, it does not have anything to do with their tokens.You missed my point - they DIDN'T have pet tokens, and weren't defined as pets in the entity - they were a caste of the civs main race which just had SLOW_LEARNER. The "unarmed, unarmored, no last name" thing didn't happen with the non-slow learner castes. Civilized creatures tend to have both a first and last name regardless of their kills - obviously this didn't happen with those slow learner castes - some seemingly were treated the same way as trolls, others were normal recruits. So that's why I'm thinking there's something up with the slow learner token.
It has nothing to do with the tokens. Creatures are either defined as citizens, or they are defined as pets, if they are not citizens then they are pets. [PET] simple allows civilizations to take wild creatures as pets. The naming thing is wield, it appears that all the two-headed ogres in your screenshot have double names but so do some of the single-headed ogres, but only the ones that were drafted into the military. I think that this is may be a historical character thing, all intelligent historical characters get double barrel names but regular non-historicals only get given double names if they do not have [SLOW_LEARNER] and are intelligent.
Another possibility is that intelligent creatures that get promoted into historicals simply become citizens UNLESS they are [SLOW_LEARNER].
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 01, 2018, 01:02:40 pm
Post by: Werdna on April 03, 2018, 12:55:08 pm
Quote
In the Great Crundle Encroachment of 140, a horde of crundles were harassing dwarves peacefully harvesting the caverns of all their valuable resources. As the military thundered onto the scene to butcher the fiends, a lone Gem Cutter decided to join the fray and cornered a single crundle in the dark. What started out as a wrestling match with the occasional biting turned decidedly nastier when the crundle exhausted. What followed were 3 combat log pages of the Gem Cutter gouging the crundle's eyes out, over and over, with the occasional punch to the head. Even after falling exhausted from his efforts, he would arise and repeat the vicious torture. The horror ended when a passing soldier saw the scuffle and promptly separated the crundle's head from its body.
Any chance choking out an opponent could be added to the combat code for unarmed combat?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 03, 2018, 03:45:19 pm
Choking is already part of unarmed combat.QuoteIn the Great Crundle Encroachment of 140, a horde of crundles were harassing dwarves peacefully harvesting the caverns of all their valuable resources. As the military thundered onto the scene to butcher the fiends, a lone Gem Cutter decided to join the fray and cornered a single crundle in the dark. What started out as a wrestling match with the occasional biting turned decidedly nastier when the crundle exhausted. What followed were 3 combat log pages of the Gem Cutter gouging the crundle's eyes out, over and over, with the occasional punch to the head. Even after falling exhausted from his efforts, he would arise and repeat the vicious torture. The horror ended when a passing soldier saw the scuffle and promptly separated the crundle's head from its body.
Any chance choking out an opponent could be added to the combat code for unarmed combat?
When is that quote from? Never seen repeated eye gouging in fortress mode. Once an enemy is down it gets hit in the head until it's dead (or until the attacker collapses exhausted).
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 03, 2018, 04:46:17 pm
Choking is already part of unarmed combat.
When is that quote from? Never seen repeated eye gouging in fortress mode. Once an enemy is down it gets hit in the head until it's dead (or until the attacker collapses exhausted).
What they're getting at is they're suggesting that unarmed AI should be smart enough to figure out that, if punching an unconscious enemy in the head is doing jack shit, they should be able to switch to grabbing the throat (when the target has a throat) and strangling instead. Like how the AI will acknowledge that helmets are an impediment to head blows.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 03, 2018, 05:27:43 pm
Isn't it mainly large beasts and crocodiles which can withstand thousands of repeated non-helmeted blows to the head? Not sure how well strangling a crocodile or a hippo would be (or indeed a crundle if the sketches online are anything to go by).Choking is already part of unarmed combat.
When is that quote from? Never seen repeated eye gouging in fortress mode. Once an enemy is down it gets hit in the head until it's dead (or until the attacker collapses exhausted).
What they're getting at is they're suggesting that unarmed AI should be smart enough to figure out that, if punching an unconscious enemy in the head is doing jack shit, they should be able to switch to grabbing the throat (when the target has a throat) and strangling instead. Like how the AI will acknowledge that helmets are an impediment to head blows.
It's interesting for variety of course. Is it just that fortress ai chooses not to grab the throat, or that throat grabbing isn't an option for them at all?
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 03, 2018, 05:53:14 pm
Isn't it mainly large beasts and crocodiles which can withstand thousands of repeated non-helmeted blows to the head? Not sure how well strangling a crocodile or a hippo would be (or indeed a crundle if the sketches online are anything to go by).
As the quote that started this discussion implies, sometimes punching a critter's head in can fail hilariously even from smaller things like crundles.
Thing is that the AI CAN do strangling, but it's a complete crapshoot dependent on them grabbing the throat first, and they won't attempt to if the target is out cold.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 03, 2018, 06:02:39 pm
3 combat log pages of the Gem Cutter gouging the crundle's eyes out, over and over, with the occasional punch to the head.Isn't it mainly large beasts and crocodiles which can withstand thousands of repeated non-helmeted blows to the head? Not sure how well strangling a crocodile or a hippo would be (or indeed a crundle if the sketches online are anything to go by).
As the quote that started this discussion implies, sometimes punching a critter's head in can fail hilariously even from smaller things like crundles.
That's just bugged combat ai in general. If he'd battered the thing in the head repeatedly, it probably would have died. That's why I wondered what version this quote was from.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 03, 2018, 06:07:37 pm
Post by: Putnam on April 03, 2018, 09:04:17 pm
Choking is already part of unarmed combat.
When is that quote from? Never seen repeated eye gouging in fortress mode. Once an enemy is down it gets hit in the head until it's dead (or until the attacker collapses exhausted).
What they're getting at is they're suggesting that unarmed AI should be smart enough to figure out that, if punching an unconscious enemy in the head is doing jack shit, they should be able to switch to grabbing the throat (when the target has a throat) and strangling instead. Like how the AI will acknowledge that helmets are an impediment to head blows.
Units have removed helmets before attacking the head of unconscious opponents for over a year.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 03, 2018, 09:43:26 pm
Units have removed helmets before attacking the head of unconscious opponents for over a year.
...I know this is a thing, and has been a thing for a while. Why did you think I mentioned it?
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 04, 2018, 04:13:21 am
Choking is already part of unarmed combat.
When is that quote from? Never seen repeated eye gouging in fortress mode. Once an enemy is down it gets hit in the head until it's dead (or until the attacker collapses exhausted).
What they're getting at is they're suggesting that unarmed AI should be smart enough to figure out that, if punching an unconscious enemy in the head is doing jack shit, they should be able to switch to grabbing the throat (when the target has a throat) and strangling instead. Like how the AI will acknowledge that helmets are an impediment to head blows.
Units have removed helmets before attacking the head of unconscious opponents for over a year.
Whether the player has any indication of that logic happening is a seperate issue. Helmet removing is a good feature to stop the inevitable, but most early opponents players face don't have armor and may just well be thick skinned and tough.
Still a matter of choosing the most effective armed or unarmed combination, or opting to switch/discard weapons i found through talking to other people to be a bit of a issue given material depth and strength. One person had a cornered scholar beat a cave toad unconscious with a book for ages with strikes to the head doing nil further damage in combat rather than probably adopting a more effective unarmed fighting stance to retarget something else like a teeth or hand grip to the throat to asphyxiate it.
Post by: Werdna on April 04, 2018, 11:38:28 am
Choking is already part of unarmed combat.
When is that quote from? Never seen repeated eye gouging in fortress mode. Once an enemy is down it gets hit in the head until it's dead (or until the attacker collapses exhausted).
It is a dramatization of a recent fort combat. Version is 43.05. The gem cutter never attempted to choke out the unconscious crundle, he just repeatedly gouged the left eye or the right eye (with results of 'tearing the tissue' and something else that I forget), and only occasionally punching the head (I'd say roughly 1 out of 10 of the time, only bruising). The gem cutter was unarmed of course.
What they're getting at is they're suggesting that unarmed AI should be smart enough to figure out that, if punching an unconscious enemy in the head is doing jack shit, they should be able to switch to grabbing the throat (when the target has a throat) and strangling instead. Like how the AI will acknowledge that helmets are an impediment to head blows.
Spot on. Seems to me that choking them out would get lethal results faster than gouging eye sockets when unarmed. :) With dwarves smart enough to remove a helmet to get a faster kill, it seems like it'd make sense that that logic could maybe be extended to going for a choke when unarmed. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Ideally we'd want to see combatants attempt various lethal methods, even if some of them are rare, to break endless combat loops where they are doing something ineffective (like that scholar banging away with a book).
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 04, 2018, 11:49:32 am
In which case, the prescribed medicine is for the AI to acknowledge when they've succeeded in gouging out all USEFUL targets (gouging the tongue and other ineffective parts could maybe be allowed to continue based on attacker's cruelty value, but should be applied sparingly), and tell the AI to let go of the target's head after all eyes have been gouged.
Post by: Werdna on April 04, 2018, 03:43:14 pm
Post by: Putnam on April 04, 2018, 04:09:34 pm
1. Destroy the throat
2. Bash in head
(also remove any armor blocking those if that's a problem)
Post by: DwarfMines on April 05, 2018, 08:32:05 am
The relevant personality facets are the same as humans. So far it seems to be that they are just out-populated, and think they are going to lose. A few overcame the risk rolls all the way up until it did the fortification calculation, and decided they couldn't field a large enough army.
There's one part of that calculation that's inconsistent in world gen (it predates the use of non-historical populations, so they weren't being figure in), but I'm not sure that'll change anything. The post world gen function is even mushier, but there's a speed issue there.
But I'm not sure it's even incorrect, the decision they are making, if the populations really are that way. Dwarves can outpopulate other people, but they only seem to get in wars with people that outmatch them (probably because they don't start wars, and others start wars they feel they can win?) But their war logic might be correct? It seems like I'm still missing something.
Is equipment taken into consideration in any way in the NPC vs. NPC battles? Is that possible?
I ask because I see a lot of dwarven sites being overrun by elves, who are presumably equipped with wooden weapons. It seems like superior equipment should be a force equalizer for the dwarves, even if outnumbered, and they should have an awareness of this and be more willing to go out and burn down some forest retreats...and goblin pits too, I suppose...but mostly forest retreats.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 05, 2018, 08:49:23 am
Yes. But it's a very recent addition so you might not have noticed it yet.The relevant personality facets are the same as humans. So far it seems to be that they are just out-populated, and think they are going to lose. A few overcame the risk rolls all the way up until it did the fortification calculation, and decided they couldn't field a large enough army.
There's one part of that calculation that's inconsistent in world gen (it predates the use of non-historical populations, so they weren't being figure in), but I'm not sure that'll change anything. The post world gen function is even mushier, but there's a speed issue there.
But I'm not sure it's even incorrect, the decision they are making, if the populations really are that way. Dwarves can outpopulate other people, but they only seem to get in wars with people that outmatch them (probably because they don't start wars, and others start wars they feel they can win?) But their war logic might be correct? It seems like I'm still missing something.
Is equipment taken into consideration in any way in the NPC vs. NPC battles? Is that possible?
Elves are equipped with giant elephants. Makes a difference.
Post by: CptAWatts22 on April 05, 2018, 01:10:22 pm
Quote from: MagistrumWill rebel groups be able to form their own distinct civilization?
Instead of just having war with your own civ, or moving back to your original civilization.
Generally having new cultures able to form is a goal in changing the frameworks, after the magic stuff. History is bizarrely static right now, and the current frameworks are not easy to work with in those terms.
So I'm guessing that adventures won't be able to take over towns and have just one group in charge of all the towns, instead of one for each town until after magic?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 05, 2018, 04:25:38 pm
--Reads dev notes...Quote from: MagistrumWill rebel groups be able to form their own distinct civilization?
Instead of just having war with your own civ, or moving back to your original civilization.
Generally having new cultures able to form is a goal in changing the frameworks, after the magic stuff. History is bizarrely static right now, and the current frameworks are not easy to work with in those terms.
So I'm guessing that adventures won't be able to take over towns and have just one group in charge of all the towns, instead of one for each town until after magic?
Since fortresses can own multiple sites as a barony, and adventurers can become barons, I'd say it seems a reasonable thing to achieve pre-magic. Not independently, of course, but you wouldn't need to.
Obviously depends on how much of it gets done, but I don't think anybody knows how much that will be (not even Toady probably).
Post by: DwarfMines on April 05, 2018, 06:21:28 pm
Yes. But it's a very recent addition so you might not have noticed it yet.
Elves are equipped with giant elephants. Makes a difference.
Thank you. I did not know that.
I hope something is able to be done to address this.
While from a lore perspective it could be rationalized that dwarves never start wars or attack anybody because they are not interested in living anywhere but their mountains, that is not very satisfying because you would think that it would occur to them to go destroy the forest refuges and dark pits and solve their problems that way.
It is sad having passive, pacifistic dwarves.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 05, 2018, 09:15:37 pm
In a world I've been looking at, some of the army battles where dwarves are the "defender" seem to take place right outside the goblin gates. Self-defence by way of preemptive strike? Or else the goblins spent so much time faffing about on the march, dwarves went over to get it over with. :)Yes. But it's a very recent addition so you might not have noticed it yet.
Elves are equipped with giant elephants. Makes a difference.
Thank you. I did not know that.
I hope something is able to be done to address this.
While from a lore perspective it could be rationalized that dwarves never start wars or attack anybody because they are not interested in living anywhere but their mountains, that is not very satisfying because you would think that it would occur to them to go destroy the forest refuges and dark pits and solve their problems that way.
It is sad having passive, pacifistic dwarves.
They don't seem to invade yet though, unless a player has provoked them. Then they're happy to attack even if the player has long since retired.
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 06, 2018, 05:00:58 am
In a world I've been looking at, some of the army battles where dwarves are the "defender" seem to take place right outside the goblin gates. Self-defence by way of preemptive strike? Or else the goblins spent so much time faffing about on the march, dwarves went over to get it over with. :)
They don't seem to invade yet though, unless a player has provoked them. Then they're happy to attack even if the player has long since retired.
Postgen tactical battles and worldgeneration are wildly different in that regard, because the new battle system doesn't carry into the old one for wars nor is it really respected for other events (like where's the implicit nonhistfig's during a FB attack? Or does equipment matter when a adventurer rolls up to a cave to challenge a dragon), there's still some major catch-up to be doing regarding the systems. #0010664 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10664)
Generally i tend to generate to 5 years so i don't receive unreliable results and the wars are fairer, giant elephants & cheaty immortal elf/goblin tactics built up over years and experience don't actually mean anything if its calculated wrong by the original world-generation with variable results when put back into play.
Post by: vvAve on April 07, 2018, 03:56:42 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 07, 2018, 04:34:39 pm
With the magic update, will world creation myth be incorporated in religions? Is it possible for different civilizations to share religion/pantheon?First part is the point, yes.
Second part can wait for an answer from Toady. Although, so far in the creation myths in the demos, they feature creation of specific races, like "the dwarves" so it seems like he's stl leaning towards different civs of the same race at least having a shared creation myth. Would be interesting to see how they breaks down. Some differentiation between civs of the same race would be nice.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 08, 2018, 02:59:21 am
With the magic update, will world creation myth be incorporated in religions? Is it possible for different civilizations to share religion/pantheon?Second part: I just checked current Legends info on two random dwarven civs, and they seem to worship different sets of gods (but I didn't delve deep enough into it to see if there may be overlaps). It would make sense to have a common basic creation myth, but have different civs worship different subsets of the source pantheon, and have the pantheon morphed into variants (such as e.g. the fairly pathetic Greek Ares turning into the mighty Roman Mars, or aspects of a source deity being split into two/two source deities merged into one. I believe this has happened in human history). I will be interesting to hear what Toady intends to do, though.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 08, 2018, 11:39:32 am
(such as e.g. the fairly pathetic Greek Ares turning into the mighty Roman Mars, or aspects of a source deity being split into two/two source deities merged into one. I believe this has happened in human history)
My mental image on reading this was a version of the "virgin and Chad" meme, with Ares and Mars.
Someone should make that.
Post by: Atomic Chicken on April 08, 2018, 01:05:00 pm
Post by: Sizik on April 09, 2018, 09:15:51 am
Quote from: Toady
allowed recentering on the item in "item inaccessible" announcements
Best update ever.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 10, 2018, 01:59:17 am
1. Current #visitors + group size > cap => Block the group from entering.
2. Cut the group entering at the point where the visitor cap is reached (which would explain why performance troupes typically arrive with only a few members, even when Legends info claims there are more members alive).
3. Lenient: If the first member of the group makes it in the whole group does (which can be problematic with infiltrator group armies [I had a 127 member army and a 120 member army {largely same members} before questers and monster hunters were made to respect the visitor cap]).
Terminology: "Infiltrator" = member of quester group who all go loyalty hostile when a group member leaves and returns attacking the fortress to get the artifact sought.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 10, 2018, 07:47:16 am
Will that Just Fit with modded worlds? If we're playing elves (as some people are want to do, apparently) will we be able to call up the surrounding pops of animal people (which often flock to elf sites) to fight? Or will it just be a selection of elves? And indeed, in vanilla games will the surrounding non-dwarf pops also be eligible as "hill dwarves" ready for cannon fodder duty?
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 11, 2018, 08:28:21 am
1. Can we expect artifacts to be de-hardcoded, so that, for instance newer skills like Pottery and Waxworking will be moodable, along with potentially nodded new skills and workshops?
2. Can we look forward to a general revision of workshops since this is tied to moods?
3. Will item type constrain the sort of spheres to which the artifact is attached, so that we are, for example, more likely to generate a golden sarcophagus of resurrection than a pig iron bucket that summons fluffy wambler remains?
4. Traditionally, wizard magic is a big no no for dwarves. Do you think we'll be able to make dwarf wizards anyway on our forts, if we want to?
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 11, 2018, 09:59:49 am
With the magic release, I expect the code for strange moods will be revised. I think we can expect magical effects tied to artifacts. But;
1. Can we expect artifacts to be de-hardcoded, so that, for instance newer skills like Pottery and Waxworking will be moodable, along with potentially nodded new skills and workshops?
2. Can we look forward to a general revision of workshops since this is tied to moods?
3. Will item type constrain the sort of spheres to which the artifact is attached, so that we are, for example, more likely to generate a golden sarcophagus of resurrection than a pig iron bucket that summons fluffy wambler remains?
4. Traditionally, wizard magic is a big no no for dwarves. Do you think we'll be able to make dwarf wizards anyway on our forts, if we want to?
Some of that is touched on in the updated dev notes (not gonna link it all tho), and point 4 from my interpretation is outright confirmed as yes:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Magic in the fortress
Artifact powers that matter for the fort
Generalize artifact moods, respecting myths
Various magic types available in fort mode in high-magic worlds
Invasions by magical beings beyond necromancers, creating new challenges
Diplomacy with magical beings
Expanded elf/nature spirit diplomacy
Long-term magical residents and other sorts of integration
Send a dwarf off as a wizard's apprentice
Magical research incorporated into library system
Fortresses meaningfully built around magical landforms
Impact of simple divine law and other deity/religion interaction
Post by: eerr on April 11, 2018, 10:46:57 am
I can't remember the details, but people tended to choose things like the latter two. I am not saying a prison colony can't become almost the same thing, but people choose the latter two because it's more gratifying.
Starting a prison colony has a negative stigma.
1. How will starting scenarios enable people to fulfill their power fantasy?
2. One problem I found with embarking anywhere, is lack of access to hard metals, like iron, silver and copper. Will a retired mining colony be able to, indefinitely/for a very long time, supply these resources? It doesn't particularly matter to me if the mines are properly depleted, or just there for flavor. This is the main reason embarking anywhere is a problem.
3. How far off is a trade upgrade?
4. How far off is hill dwarf recruitment?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 11, 2018, 03:46:21 pm
I've seen projects like this before add choices. The choice between a prison colony and say, founding a powerful religious site or a new central mountainhome.4. Hill dwarves next 6 months (dev notes - it's included in this current update cycle).
I can't remember the details, but people tended to choose things like the latter two. I am not saying a prison colony can't become almost the same thing, but people choose the latter two because it's more gratifying.
Starting a prison colony has a negative stigma.
1. How will starting scenarios enable people to fulfill their power fantasy?
2. One problem I found with embarking anywhere, is lack of access to hard metals, like iron, silver and copper. Will a retired mining colony be able to, indefinitely/for a very long time, supply these resources? It doesn't particularly matter to me if the mines are properly depleted, or just there for flavor. This is the main reason embarking anywhere is a problem.
3. How far off is a trade upgrade?
4. How far off is hill dwarf recruitment?
3. Trade, probably Economy. About 10-15 years from now.
Post by: KittyTac on April 11, 2018, 08:40:02 pm
4. Hill dwarves next 6 months (dev notes - it's included in this current update cycle).
3. Trade, probably Economy. About 10-15 years from now.
Not 15, 20-ish ;)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 11, 2018, 10:11:20 pm
I'm optimistic:4. Hill dwarves next 6 months (dev notes - it's included in this current update cycle).
3. Trade, probably Economy. About 10-15 years from now.
Not 15, 20-ish ;)
6 months updates now
24 months Big Wait for Mythgen
6 months updates
18 months on Mythgen part 2
6 months updates
18 months on Scenarios (politics/law)
6 months updates
12 months super-fast politics part 2
6 months updates
18 months moving fortress parts re-write (Boats)
6 months updates
24 months mega-economy update.
=12-13 years. Plus some extra just because.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 11, 2018, 10:13:53 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 11, 2018, 10:18:24 pm
Again, above schedule is totally optimistic based on wishful thinking, mostly. Might want to add an extended 2 year, "re-write most of the code from scratch" update in there too. Maybe we can get to Economy before that's necessary though. :)
Post by: KittyTac on April 11, 2018, 11:31:35 pm
I hope that we'll get some maybe simple little boats during this next big cycle. Because I like boats.
No. Toady likes to release a big feature all at once. Not in little simple chunks, because one player wants it.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 12, 2018, 02:28:22 am
It's been stated before that boats are dependent on the advanced machinery update, and Toady can't decide whether the economy should go first (so there's a reason to use boats) or machinery should go first. The important advance machinery foundation for boats is multi tile sized machinery that can change shape (I think, like a current drawbridge) and move (an elevator type contraption would move vertically, but boats will obviously move across the X/Y plane, while a wagon would have to negotiate slopes as well [I believe the wagon "creatures" are slated to be replaced by "machinery"]).I hope that we'll get some maybe simple little boats during this next big cycle. Because I like boats.
No. Toady likes to release a big feature all at once. Not in little simple chunks, because one player wants it.
Simple early little boats don't fit into this picture...Even if you were to eventually get single tile rafts, they'd still be built using the larger framework.
Post by: gnome on April 12, 2018, 10:43:39 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 12, 2018, 07:56:51 pm
Suppose you have a mod that changes entities to behave in a specific way that is required for some other aspect of the mod to function. Moreover, suppose that the future myth generator would potentially completely break this entity by forcing it to use hardcoded generated critters, entity tokens and such.
Is there going to be any way for a raw mod to restrict how mythgen is handled, so that if you want to FORCE the game to use certain civs it'll do so, regardless of mythgen settings?
The reason I ask this is because if this option does not exist, the myth arc is almost guaranteed to break pretty much every civ-focused raw mod in existence, and counting on the user to advanced-worldgen more "vanilla" worlds is not an optimal solution.
Post by: KittyTac on April 12, 2018, 09:35:22 pm
I don't recall if this has been answered, nor if I've asked it yet. I have expressed concerns related tp it if I recall, but that got derailed because people started arguing after misreading what that concern was about.
Suppose you have a mod that changes entities to behave in a specific way that is required for some other aspect of the mod to function. Moreover, suppose that the future myth generator would potentially completely break this entity by forcing it to use hardcoded generated critters, entity tokens and such.
Is there going to be any way for a raw mod to restrict how mythgen is handled, so that if you want to FORCE the game to use certain civs it'll do so, regardless of mythgen settings?
The reason I ask this is because if this option does not exist, the myth arc is almost guaranteed to break pretty much every civ-focused raw mod in existence, and counting on the user to advanced-worldgen more "vanilla" worlds is not an optimal solution.
Sounds pretty obvious. Toady does not want to disappoint modders here.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 12, 2018, 09:56:46 pm
Sounds pretty obvious. Toady does not want to disappoint modders here.
Hope so. Generated demons, angels and such already mess with player control of mod flavor, though the modder can push back to a limited degree (either not using dark fortresses OR using raw-defined positions seems suffcient to break slade spire events).
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 12, 2018, 10:42:46 pm
When you rewrite the map code, can we expect to see any change to aquifers?
I imagine that new versions will include a "vanilla" setting that includes the standard races and enemies with which we are familiar, like the flesh-eating elves and mischievous kobolds. Do you have in mind a standard "vanilla" set of rules in mind for magic and myth once it's implemented, either as a baseline from which other modes deviate or as one permutation amongst many?
Post by: KittyTac on April 12, 2018, 10:56:30 pm
A couple more quick questions;
When you rewrite the map code, can we expect to see any change to aquifers?
I imagine that new versions will include a "vanilla" setting that includes the standard races and enemies with which we are familiar, like the flesh-eating elves and mischievous kobolds. Do you have in mind a standard "vanilla" set of rules in mind for magic and myth once it's implemented, either as a baseline from which other modes deviate or as one permutation amongst many?
Almost everything will be procedural, but one combination of settings will play out almost exactly like vanilla, preset races and all, I think
Magic: None [Low] Medium High Very high
Weirdness: None [Low] Medium High Very high
Violence: None Low Medium [High] Very high
Or something like this.
Post by: keupo on April 13, 2018, 01:02:49 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 13, 2018, 03:02:32 am
The new outdoor cleaning feature is nice, but it poses a real problem in evil biomes with blood rain. An order, like the gather refuse outside order, but for cleaning outside would be great. Is this something I could hope for?Suggestions belong to the suggestion thread... For the time being, you can avoid cleaning of roads by not making them or by roofing them over.
Post by: Magistrum on April 13, 2018, 09:20:51 am
Post by: voliol on April 13, 2018, 10:04:23 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 13, 2018, 11:18:18 am
What are your thoughts on creatures that went extinct after the technological cutoff of year 1500 (e.g. dronts, tasmanian devils)? Are they excluded from the lists of animals that might be added in the future?
Could've sworn the cutoff was 1400 actually. Not that it matters since fire lances, Greek fire, and a lot of other things would be well before either cutoff...
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 13, 2018, 12:37:20 pm
Just jumping in to remind everyone to color limegreen the questions only, to reduce the amount of text The Great Toady One has to read.As far as I understand, Toady reads everything. The purpose of the (lime) green indication is to thep Toady find the questions among the chaff when it's time to answer then. Cutting down on the size of the marked part of the post helps keeping the size of the answer post down, though.
What are your thoughts on creatures that went extinct after the technological cutoff of year 1500 (e.g. dronts, tasmanian devils)? Are they excluded from the lists of animals that might be added in the future?I see no reason to apply any strict time limits to flora/fauna, as the 1400 cutoff is a technological guide line. Spheres might provide a reason to introduce things out of time, such as the ice age megafauna or dinosaurs, while whacky worlds might get those or weirder stuff.
And, just to pick nits, tasmanian devils aren't extinct: you're probably thinking about tasmanian tigers (and I think the dront is called dodo in English).
Post by: Knight Otu on April 13, 2018, 12:41:42 pm
What are your thoughts on creatures that went extinct after the technological cutoff of year 1500 (e.g. dronts, tasmanian devils)? Are they excluded from the lists of animals that might be added in the future?From DF Talk #20:
Quote
Question 9
Threetoe: Ok, Aaron asks, 'Considering Dwarf Fortress' long development, will animals be removed the game as their real life counterparts go extinct or will animals such as polar bears, gorillas and pandas be kept in Dwarf Fortress even after their extinction in reality? Any plans to include the moa, dodos, or pygmy mammoths that were still kicking around past 1400AD?' Yeah, that's kind of a messed-up question. We were thinking about having the animal sponsorship drive. That didn't really work out that well, well it did monetarily, but it was kind of hard to implement. At one point considering having an extinct animal sponsorship drive.
Toady: Yeah, it probably wouldn't be a sponsorship drive, at least not the same way. We'd be happy to include extinct animals, and I think it would be just cold, if the polar goes extinct, to remove it from the game, that'd be cold. I'd like to keep the polar bear in there as kind of an homage to the existence of the polar bear, but it is incredibly depressing to think about that. But I'm not removing polar bears from the game.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 13, 2018, 03:56:06 pm
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 13, 2018, 04:17:37 pm
Once you get to magical artifacts and such, will you consider having certain artifacts be part of a "set" with other artifacts? Like a legendary sword and shield with a special power that only works when you use both of them, or five magical keys that can unlock the secrets of the universe only if you collect them all?
DF Talk 7 had a lot of info on artifacts (there's also a second part linked in the dftalk tab):
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_7_transcript.html
Capntastic: Will there be multipart sets like the helmet of Deulath with the gloves of Deulath with the sword of Deulath, brought together.
Toady: It's kind of a thing where after you've played Diablo II you don't want to do it, but there should be stuff like that. Especially when you come down to a guy who becomes attached to multiple objects or something, the fact that those are kept completely separate from each other is odd. If the guy has a sword and a helmet that he's given names to, and he stabbed the dragon and then drove the helmet through the dragon ...
Interlocutor: Headbutt.
Toady: Yeah yeah! Then those things should be linked in history and perhaps even in some magical way ... but certainly historically there should be linkages like that. Now when you're talking about actually creating an artifact I think there was some development item about artifact sets; it's not just for things like the sword and the shield that go together, but more importantly the two gloves that go together that are separate objects, and then also things like several arrows, instead of just one. So there's certainly going to be some expansions there.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 15, 2018, 01:51:22 am
Will historical figure dwarves pick up memories in worldgen too? Some of my migrants are war veterans with hundreds of kills and histories of surviving multiple massacres.
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 15, 2018, 07:04:37 am
As in to give a relevant example, more strictly enforced civilization & personal level knowledge events, sort of like messing with the configuration that only makes them aware of things that happened on site, and losing touch with the progress of the world if they are separated from regular diplomatic visits from caravans & visitors.
and a side question
Will past memories & events scribed into books, engravings and passed down through generations of oral stories affect dwarves recollection of events?
I look forward when a notable liar historian spreads lies about the histories of the Dwarves and results in causing a conflict because the Monarch got the notion to avenge a artifact falsely taken in a siege of a site years prior to them being born or on part of another war reason from the same fabricated truth.
(I just read the devlog, seems its more a event kind of thing so i guess my second question is open ended)
Post by: Rubik on April 15, 2018, 07:16:49 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 15, 2018, 05:28:29 pm
Post by: Beag on April 15, 2018, 05:28:44 pm
2. Will each world with magic also generate it's own ways of researching magic and magical secrets or will there be a common set of ways or researching magic?
3. Once one of our adventurer wizards makes a discovery will that discovery be revealed in the myth viewer sort of like a fog of war with magic information?
4. Will our adventurers in some worlds with magic be able to make advances in discovering magical secrets with their own research or will they always need the help of a well established NPC wizard?
Post by: squamous on April 15, 2018, 06:00:02 pm
2. What exactly is the current reload time for bows and crossbows? Is there a difference between the two?
3. Would it eventually be possible to adjust the parameters of cave civs to create sites that are less labyrinthine? Sort of like the current worldgen settings for cavern passage density.
4. If [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] is added to an intelligent creature set to only spawn as the pets of an existing civilization, will fully-fledged civilized creatures be drawn from that population of pets, or is it required that they spawn in the wilderness to join a civilization as a proper member?
Post by: thvaz on April 15, 2018, 07:26:40 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 15, 2018, 09:36:31 pm
Apart from being replaced by equal or stronger events, do long term memories fade over time? That is, they lose strength over the years to give the chance to other not so strong events to replace it in that long term memory spot?I think that's what would happen once they starting dividing long term memories into life stages. Then it'll start getting interesting. A tragic event in childhood might not be recalled and dwelled upon so much in old age, but it might subconsciously effect their world view for their entire lives.
Post by: golemgunk on April 16, 2018, 01:12:47 am
I'm just already imagining making tragedy-curing potion with a syndrome that brings a dwarf's memory stat down temporarily until they've forgotten their troubles.
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 16, 2018, 07:04:44 am
Are memory slots going to be tied to the Memory attribute?
I'm just already imagining making tragedy-curing potion with a syndrome that brings a dwarf's memory stat down temporarily until they've forgotten their troubles.
Elves and goblins never forget on part of their immortality, elves especially being vengeful and goblins being violent will probably mean their exotic personalities may be exaggerated through experience, should be fun to test out. Though it should be funnier to watch a bumbling vampires, necromancers or wizards forget details of their life after they attained immortality by other means with normal memory statistics.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 16, 2018, 07:06:00 am
By that I mean, good memories which have a chance of actually sticking in the long term memory for a few years despite drownings, battles and enduring the decay of loved ones.
Post by: DG on April 16, 2018, 08:49:47 am
Post by: Egan_BW on April 16, 2018, 08:54:51 am
Post by: DG on April 16, 2018, 09:00:37 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 16, 2018, 11:00:55 am
Are memory slots going to be tied to the Memory attribute?
I'm just already imagining making tragedy-curing potion with a syndrome that brings a dwarf's memory stat down temporarily until they've forgotten their troubles.
Elves and goblins never forget on part of their immortality, elves especially being vengeful and goblins being violent will probably mean their exotic personalities may be exaggerated through experience, should be fun to test out. Though it should be funnier to watch a bumbling vampires, necromancers or wizards forget details of their life after they attained immortality by other means with normal memory statistics.
Wait, is the updated stress system in effect for all races or just dorfs?
(Hoping another player can answer this which is why I didn't bother LG-ifying it)
Post by: Putnam on April 16, 2018, 02:55:13 pm
Are memory slots going to be tied to the Memory attribute?
I'm just already imagining making tragedy-curing potion with a syndrome that brings a dwarf's memory stat down temporarily until they've forgotten their troubles.
Elves and goblins never forget on part of their immortality, elves especially being vengeful and goblins being violent will probably mean their exotic personalities may be exaggerated through experience, should be fun to test out. Though it should be funnier to watch a bumbling vampires, necromancers or wizards forget details of their life after they attained immortality by other means with normal memory statistics.
Wait, is the updated stress system in effect for all races or just dorfs?
(Hoping another player can answer this which is why I didn't bother LG-ifying it)
All races. As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever just for dwarves and dwarves are not special in any way that can't be changed in the raws.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 16, 2018, 03:18:25 pm
Post by: Lordfiscus on April 16, 2018, 03:26:50 pm
2. Will "Magic Missile"-type spells exist? How effective will they be, if not analogous to crossbow bolts/arrows?
3. I've heard that casting will be song-based from other users. Will this be the only way to cast spells, or will there be more classical methods, a la wands/books/staves/talismans? Does the material used to make such items affect casting functionality? Could a metal casting tool double as a bludgeoning weapon? Will one be able to make dual weapons/casting tools which the user alternates based on distance to target/threat severity?
4. What is the malus to using casting, if any? Is it simply how many times you can use a casting tool/ability per action? Like if it's song-based, the number of mouths on the creature? Or will there be a mana/focus/essence count that depletes as spells are used?
5. Can spells be fired through fortifications or is there a chance the projectile will hit the fortifications as it moves if too large, possibly setting off spell prematurely?
6. Can casting devices be made, a la ballistae or catapults, or even traps?
Post by: MCreeper on April 16, 2018, 03:42:41 pm
Post by: Lordfiscus on April 16, 2018, 04:11:53 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 16, 2018, 04:22:33 pm
1. Will mind-affecting spells exist? Includes: Memory-alteration/removal/inclusion, intelligence reduction/increase, raising/lowering the speed at which dwarves become proficient at their craft, and writing curses on walls that compel readers to read the information on them and convey it to others, repeating the curse's effect. Also possibly something inducing berserk states.
Can't say for certain seeing as I'm not Toady, but seems a safe bet in my personal opinion. Chances are, if there's a type of spell that's appeared with some level of regularity in popular fantasy fiction, mythgen will be able to generate it.
Post by: thvaz on April 16, 2018, 08:33:14 pm
Post by: Rubik on April 17, 2018, 04:15:23 am
All inteligent races can get into strange moods now
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 17, 2018, 04:49:32 am
@PlumpHelmetMan
All inteligent races can get into strange moods now
In current vanilla this is false.
Until the parameter this is explicitly handled by [STRANGE_MOODS] on a creature level, generation doing otherwise would need either additive raw effects based on the result or to adapt to state the reason of the strange moods every time for all relevant creatures.
Post by: Putnam on April 17, 2018, 06:10:14 am
Post by: Rubik on April 17, 2018, 06:39:21 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 17, 2018, 08:44:30 pm
Don't all the major races in DF (Goblins, elves, dwarves and humans) have [STRANGE_MOODS] in their raws?No. Only dwarves.
Humans, elves and goblins (and dwarves) create artifacts by naming their favorite weapon or piece of armour (usually after slaying a megabeast).
Humans (and members of human civs) also get to create artifacts from dead priests' body parts (or occasionally just their favorite objects).
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 17, 2018, 08:49:09 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 18, 2018, 12:12:43 am
Post by: Egan_BW on April 18, 2018, 05:28:37 am
Post by: Disgrunt on April 18, 2018, 08:14:47 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 18, 2018, 08:58:44 am
How will priests, and the role they play in different cultures, intersect with the Myth/Magic update? Will priests have access to some kind of magic or divine powers? Will players be able to become priests?In worlds where gods exist, gods may be able to/elect to (depending on world gen) grant power to adherents. In worlds where gods do not exist, but magic does (if that combination is valid) there is no reason priests couldn't wield magic they think (or claim) is of a divine origin when it actually isn't.
Post by: Shazbot on April 18, 2018, 11:04:33 am
Shazbot is currently feeling more shameless.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 18, 2018, 11:23:10 am
Are you considering implementing family names that can be assumed through marriage, inherited through parentage and created by noteworthy deeds, as determined by caste raws?http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=170319.0
Shazbot is currently feeling more shameless.
From DFtalk 6:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_6_transcript.html
There's been a lot of discussion about passing down family names and so on, people are kind of upset sometimes when they have a fortress for a while and the dwarves have babies and the babies just have completely unrelated names, that's just something that hasn't gotten in, but it'll go in as soon as we figure out what dwarves like to do, or what procedural stuff needs to be generated there.
I'm fairly certain it's been asked a few times in previous FotF threads as well, but not as easy digging stuff out from there :P
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 18, 2018, 02:38:41 pm
Post by: ShinyandKittens on April 18, 2018, 04:50:07 pm
Post by: Shazbot on April 18, 2018, 05:00:02 pm
Are you considering implementing family names that can be assumed through marriage, inherited through parentage and created by noteworthy deeds, as determined by caste raws?http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=170319.0
Shazbot is currently feeling more shameless.
From DFtalk 6:Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_6_transcript.htmlThere's been a lot of discussion about passing down family names and so on, people are kind of upset sometimes when they have a fortress for a while and the dwarves have babies and the babies just have completely unrelated names, that's just something that hasn't gotten in, but it'll go in as soon as we figure out what dwarves like to do, or what procedural stuff needs to be generated there.
I'm fairly certain it's been asked a few times in previous FotF threads as well, but not as easy digging stuff out from there :P
Thank you friend. Then may my repetition merely remind us all, as I remind my wife, that when a man sets his mind to accomplish something that he shall do it, and need not be reminded every few years.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 18, 2018, 05:03:09 pm
What will portals do? Can they be two-way transports to other locations, or a thing that creates new creatures? Can demons emerge from them? Can they appear in fort mode and summon vermin? Can they be summoned manually? How? Lots more questions
Probably TSTT for most of this, considering development for even the basics of mythgen won't begin for another half year.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 19, 2018, 01:36:59 am
What will portals do? Can they be two-way transports to other locations, or a thing that creates new creatures? Can demons emerge from them? Can they appear in fort mode and summon vermin? Can they be summoned manually? How? Lots more questionsAccording to what's been said so far, the initial version of portals will be one way, allowing critters to emerge from them into the DF world, and "demons" should definitely be among the non native critters that might emerge.
Later development will see two way portals, but a precondition for that is support for multiple concurrent locations being viewable and controllable in Fortress mode. When two way portals are implemented (which will probably happen after the first Myth & Magic arc, as the seams of that arc are extremely strained as it is), they would be able to support transit to another location in the DF world as well as to other "planes". Magic should allow the opening and closing of portals (eventually), using multiple magical methods (such as rituals, invading powerful critters, "divine" support, etc.). Presumably portals could be temporary or persistent.
Vermin summoning might actually be harder than regular critters, although the mechanism by which cavern vermin is released currently might be used to release vermin from the other side. Otherwise, if you want a vermin spawner, a magical artifact that does that is probably a better option than a full blown portal.
Post by: KittyTac on April 19, 2018, 01:56:36 am
Post by: Max™ on April 19, 2018, 12:01:31 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 19, 2018, 12:10:20 pm
Post by: Goonts on April 19, 2018, 04:38:20 pm
Like will choosing demigod actually give you specific divine parentage? Of course this would rely on the setting, but could you be given powers based on your parentage?
Or will the demigod setting just be renamed to something else, or simply kept as is with no further affects other than increased attribute and skill points?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 19, 2018, 04:41:26 pm
With the myth and magic arc will choosing a demigod adventurer affect the way the game will be played in any new ways?Lime green text if that's a question for Toady.
Like will choosing demigod actually give you specific divine parentage? Of course this would rely on the setting, but could you be given powers based on your parentage?
Or will the demigod setting just be renamed to something else, or simply kept as is with no further affects other than increased attribute and skill points?
Somewhere (Dftalk perhaps) divine parentage for demigod adventurers is mentioned.
Requires adventurers having parents first, of course. Selecting a historical character as an adventurer had also been mentioned (same place probably).
Post by: Oreos on April 22, 2018, 07:15:49 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 22, 2018, 07:25:47 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 23, 2018, 01:42:35 am
When planes are released will the location of hell be able to change in world gen?, and if so will the spires be replaced by portals to the plane of hell?
Presumably yes to both. Assuming the world in question even has a hell, of course. Some worlds won't, seeing as mythgen will allow for astonishingly diverse worldgen results, some of which may be almost unrecognizable as a product of the game in its current form.We'll see what Toady comes up with. The problem with using portals is that portals are going to be one way for a fair while before they become two way, which means you'd only be able to let the buggers in, but not engage them on their home turf for a number of years if that implementation is used. Also, the delicious candy would be sorely missed by craving dorf overseers (although there are ways around that problem, of course, one of which involves cosmic egg shells and the like).
Post by: Egan_BW on April 23, 2018, 04:21:46 am
Post by: KittyTac on April 23, 2018, 06:34:19 am
Is it at all disturbing to implement the system that will allow countless tiny bearded people to remember their traumatic experiences for the rest of their lives?
Remember that they can't actually feel, it is just a variable or two. The number of "variables" that control a human's feelings is on the order of a few thousands.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 23, 2018, 06:58:13 am
However it does involve sitting around and having conversations along the lines of, "so, which should be weighted as more traumatic, enduring the decay of one's mother or witnessing the death of one's child at the hands of your mother-turned-night-creature?"Is it at all disturbing to implement the system that will allow countless tiny bearded people to remember their traumatic experiences for the rest of their lives?
Remember that they can't actually feel, it is just a variable or two. The number of "variables" that control a human's feelings is on the order of a few thousands.
Which is plenty disturbing in itself. :)
Post by: KittyTac on April 23, 2018, 06:59:35 am
Post by: Egan_BW on April 23, 2018, 08:24:44 am
That's not what I asked.Is it at all disturbing to implement the system that will allow countless tiny bearded people to remember their traumatic experiences for the rest of their lives?
Remember that they can't actually feel, it is just a variable or two. The number of "variables" that control a human's feelings is on the order of a few thousands.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 23, 2018, 09:44:29 am
Anyway, I don't think Egan is arguing ethics (let's indeed not start that here). It could still be plenty disturbing to implement without being ethically ambiguous. :P
Post by: Max™ on April 23, 2018, 03:13:39 pm
Post-Singularity AI 2: Why, because of the mass murders and whatnot?
Post by: KittyTac on April 23, 2018, 08:56:36 pm
Post-Singularity AI 1: Do you think it's wrong to sim these meatfolk without them knowing it is a sim?
Post-Singularity AI 2: Why, because of the mass murders and whatnot?
Exactly. We do not have to create an utopia for them, because it does not make an interesting game/sim.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 23, 2018, 09:06:14 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on April 24, 2018, 05:08:29 pm
Exactly. We do not have to create an utopia for them, because it does not make an interesting game/sim.
But destroying their utopia and introducing fear and death to a world that had never known it before would make for a good story
Post by: KittyTac on April 24, 2018, 09:22:04 pm
Exactly. We do not have to create an utopia for them, because it does not make an interesting game/sim.
But destroying their utopia and introducing fear and death to a world that had never known it before would make for a good story
Yup! Once Myth comes along we will be able to make non-violent worlds, then, ahem, violence that world.
Will we be able to introduce violence to normally non-violent worlds?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 24, 2018, 10:03:25 pm
Highest on the 'no-violence' scale is 'no death'. So, best you could do probably is organize some wrestling tournaments.Exactly. We do not have to create an utopia for them, because it does not make an interesting game/sim.
But destroying their utopia and introducing fear and death to a world that had never known it before would make for a good story
Yup! Once Myth comes along we will be able to make non-violent worlds, then, ahem, violence that world.
Will we be able to introduce violence to normally non-violent worlds?
Post by: Bumber on April 24, 2018, 11:42:37 pm
Thumb wrestling, maybe.Highest on the 'no-violence' scale is 'no death'. So, best you could do probably is organize some wrestling tournaments.Exactly. We do not have to create an utopia for them, because it does not make an interesting game/sim.
But destroying their utopia and introducing fear and death to a world that had never known it before would make for a good story
Yup! Once Myth comes along we will be able to make non-violent worlds, then, ahem, violence that world.
Will we be able to introduce violence to normally non-violent worlds?
Post by: voliol on April 25, 2018, 02:59:57 am
Will there be portals at all at this point that lead out of the fort, or are they just going to be for critters coming in?
Post by: iceball3 on April 25, 2018, 04:22:44 am
Relating to the first question, what sort of balance do you wish to strike from the following two directions?:
-That frequently pulling adults into existence during worldgen is immersively destructive, due to the sheer amount of individuals who seem to exist with no historical relation to any individuals, and no family to direct the course of their actions in any way.
-That infrequently pulling individuals into existence during worldgen can cause issues in that tightly knit family trees have much more involvement in everything that occurs in the world than anyone else, and that their limited numbers can cause issues if a significant amount of them find vital roles not their calling. That it is also difficult to counter this due to the limitation of the drag on worldgen that excessive historical figures causes.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 25, 2018, 05:27:34 am
[color]I've heard that one-way portals will come before two-way ones, but isn't a two-way portals just two one-way portals leading to and from opposite locations?I assume that what Toady means by “One-way” is that they only let mobs enter the map, seeing as “having a discontinuous area in play at the same time as the fort” is the real technical hurdle.
Will there be portals at all at this point that lead out of the fort, or are they just going to be for critters coming in?[/color]
So the elfomancers will be able to teleport legions of Greenpeace into your tree farm through a magic portal, but you have to walk over to Elf HQ to beat them up in revenge
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 25, 2018, 07:22:51 am
I've heard that one-way portals will come before two-way ones, but isn't a two-way portals just two one-way portals leading to and from opposite locations?As Dorsidwarf said, the issue is handling multiple locations concurrently, not the portals in themselves. Thus, the initial one way ones will all be inbound (it would be possible to handle two way ones the same as raids are handled currently [i.e. leave, return, and then produce a report of the action afterwards], but since that would be a short term measure that would be rendered obsolete within a few Myth & Magic arcs, Toady is unlikely to spend efforts on it unless the current raid system can be co-opted into service with rather little effort).
Will there be portals at all at this point that lead out of the fort, or are they just going to be for critters coming in?
Post by: Egan_BW on April 25, 2018, 08:49:45 am
Once multiple sites being loaded at once is possible, the portal infrastructure can be kept, just replacing both kinds of raids with extra loaded sites.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 25, 2018, 10:29:50 am
Portal based raiding would probably be rather easy, but most anything else done on site would be throwaway functionality.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 25, 2018, 10:35:45 am
Post by: ShinyandKittens on April 25, 2018, 05:29:24 pm
Post by: saharo on April 26, 2018, 05:47:11 am
1) With the Myth&Magic system, will we see magical auras? Like the Surrounding system, an area might also be associated with a Myth, and exhibit properties of that Myth. Let's say the Myth generation creates a connection between ice, lizardmen and silver (I will call these spheres), and an area highly aligned with this Myth would be colder, show often snow, ice formations, lizard-like creatures, abundant silver veins, silver colored trees, and in general entities associated with those spheres.
2) Again on this aura concept. Will we see the properties of an area modify the value of its surrounding? E.g. a fortress with a shrine to a God: will the influence of that God increase with the prayers? Will we see anything like of building a fortress in an evil biome and trying to create and expand an aura that opposes the evil biome and having the evil biome effects less strong closer to the church?
Always on this, let's say there's an area with a verdant pine forest and full of bears, and the Myth generation creates a connection between a lightning god, bears and pine trees. Given how the area "looks like" that Myth, will the association of this area with this Myth increase over time, and see the place get more lightning storm, flowers that give you a shock if you eat them, then magical creatures of lightning and so on?
3) I see dwarves being more and more creative, telling stories, playing make believe, now even writing fiction books. Will this be expanded to fairytales? And could very famous fairytales have a concrete effect on the world, and be part of some sort of Myth generation during game time? The idea being that fairies inhabit the world of imagination and a strong believe can summon the fairies to the real world. Sufficient people telling the story of the big bad wolf living in a certain cave, has the effect of actually bringing a big bad fairy wolf to that very cave.
4) More in general, will Myth creation stop at worldgen? Or will it also run during playing time and include player introduce elements?
5) How much can we expect in terms of procedurally generated magical content? Will it include normal and widespread creatures and plants? Will we have generate worlds with large forest of procedurally generated trees, animals, stone, metal etc...?
First time posting in Future of the Fortress, hope that's how you do it :)
Post by: KittyTac on April 26, 2018, 06:05:03 am
3: In some worlds.
4: No. It will be "living" like the world is at the moment. But some worlds will have immutable rules.
5: There will be a slider for that! From completely mundane life to completely random life!
There won't be a single magic system.
Post by: voliol on April 26, 2018, 06:20:17 am
Quote
1) With the Myth&Magic system, will we see magical auras? Like the Surrounding system, an area might also be associated with a Myth, and exhibit properties of that Myth. Let's say the Myth generation creates a connection between ice, lizardmen and silver (I will call these spheres), and an area highly aligned with this Myth would be colder, show often snow, ice formations, lizard-like creatures, abundant silver veins, silver colored trees, and in general entities associated with those spheres.
The current good/evil biome system is planned to sooner or later be changed out for a more generalized Sphere-based biome system, so yeah, something like this could probably happen. None of these are actual Spheres though, so they'd have to be connected to one in that case (Like DUSK or MOON).
I think this is discussed in one of the DF talks.
Quote
2) Again on this aura concept. Will we see the properties of an area modify the value of its surrounding? E.g. a fortress with a shrine to a God: will the influence of that God increase with the prayers? Will we see anything like of building a fortress in an evil biome and trying to create and expand an aura that opposes the evil biome and having the evil biome effects less strong closer to the church?
Always on this, let's say there's an area with a verdant pine forest and full of bears, and the Myth generation creates a connection between a lightning god, bears and pine trees. Given how the area "looks like" that Myth, will the association of this area with this Myth increase over time, and see the place get more lightning storm, flowers that give you a shock if you eat them, then magical creatures of lightning and so on?
The myth gen is not actually "myth" with any metaphysical properties, but really just very early history that includes the creation of the universe. In low-fastasy settings the myth gen might be actual myth, but then that just means that it didn't really happen (and the world was created my natural real-life processes).
Biomes changing I'm pretty sure will be a thing though.
Quote
4) More in general, will Myth creation stop at worldgen? Or will it also run during playing time and include player introduce elements?
Myth gen will end, but myth gen events will still be possible, if rare. Some good examples can be found in the Tales Foretold story (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_tales_foretold.html (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_tales_foretold.html)), with various mass summonings of critters, ascensions to godhood, and the like.
Quote
5) How much can we expect in terms of procedurally generated magical content? Will it include normal and widespread creatures and plants? Will we have generate worlds with large forest of procedurally generated trees, animals, stone, metal etc...?
Depends on what you put the planned random slider at, with the lowest setting having none, and the highest setting having pretty much only random stuff.
3) is interesting though, placebo magic is something pretty cool after all.
Post by: Bumber on April 27, 2018, 08:22:43 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 27, 2018, 09:50:35 pm
Cave spider venom causes permanent dizziness for life. The only bug report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8112) I could find on the issue was closed, citing the raws as evidence of intended behavior. Is this actually true, or is it a mistake in the raws?
Code: [Select]
[SYNDROME]
[SYN_NAME:cave spider bite]
[SYN_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[SYN_IMMUNE_CREATURE:SPIDER_CAVE:ALL]
[SYN_INJECTED]
[CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:10:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:5:PEAK:100] never ends!
Hint: search the raws yourself. File is creature_subterranean.
Post by: ShinyandKittens on April 27, 2018, 10:05:54 pm
Cave spider venom causes permanent dizziness for life. The only bug report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8112) I could find on the issue was closed, citing the raws as evidence of intended behavior. Is this actually true, or is it a mistake in the raws?Code: [Select][SYNDROME]
[SYN_NAME:cave spider bite]
[SYN_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[SYN_IMMUNE_CREATURE:SPIDER_CAVE:ALL]
[SYN_INJECTED]
[CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:10:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:5:PEAK:100] never ends!
Hint: search the raws yourself. File is creature_subterranean.
Why I forgot, of course!
WHY HAVE YOU DONE THIS TO US
Post by: Bumber on April 27, 2018, 10:32:26 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 28, 2018, 02:53:48 am
:Two possible answers:
WHY HAVE YOU DONE THIS TO US
- Why not?; and
- Because I can!
Post by: Rubik on April 28, 2018, 12:35:02 pm
Having said that Now that we are gonna get assasinations and kidnapping missions in all modes, is it the time to make knocking out and dragging unconscious enemies possible?
If it were, will the also upcoming medical stuff in adv. mode include sleep/alertness inducing herbs to poison enemies?
Post by: ZM5 on April 28, 2018, 01:07:02 pm
What about nobles? Would they say what they're nobles of? I often find an issue with various bandit leaders not really stating what they're leaders of, making it hard to tell if they're really relevant enough to bother with, same with other nobles - would be a definite improvement.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 28, 2018, 03:21:06 pm
In regards to conveying information more openly in adventure mode, do you intend making NPCs convey their emotions in more ways than merely stating them? I.e smiling when making a good deal, shrieking in pain when taking damage, or some of the mannerisms that are currently described only in fort mode? Would be fun to encounter the occasional hysterical bandit that loudly screams when lightly tapped. Or the psycho who grins as he/she is getting stabbed.Wait, where does this happen in Fortress mode? It's the same "I've been mortally wounded, no that's not depressing" that Adventurer uses, isn't it?
Post by: ZM5 on April 28, 2018, 03:31:58 pm
Post by: Rubik on April 28, 2018, 03:37:21 pm
It'd help inmersion greatly
I actually think about this sometimes. This game is extremely deep/complex, and it aims to be it even more if the future yet it really is adverse to showing interesting information to the player
But, I'm sure Toady acknowledges this, and will tackle that problem eventually. If there's a Social/dialogues update arc, that's when it'll come in
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 28, 2018, 03:46:49 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 28, 2018, 04:03:11 pm
Well, I find it hard to imagine that "prioritizing important information" won't involve revealing a greater extent of interesting information to the player. So yeah, we can probably expect some of that from this update cycle (not that it'll be fleshed-out completely of course, Toady and many others are pretty anxious to start myth development at this point :P).I can't say for sure, but it seems that it's more about making the currently available information much more accessible to players instead of in long random lists.
Adding thousands of lines of dialogue and 'aarrgghh' type of exclamations to convey emotion seems a little out of the scope.
Including a Fortress mode style thoughts screen for your companions once the party mechanics are added might be good though. Then you can see if members fidget when they're nervous or are suffering from traumatic childhood memories.
Post by: ZM5 on April 28, 2018, 05:42:25 pm
It'd definitely help with immersion a lot - plus it could provide more of a use for the social awareness attribute for when/if more complex conversations get introduced. I.e with a low amount of it you'd probably have difficulty telling if someone's nervous about something they're asked about.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 28, 2018, 06:02:09 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 28, 2018, 06:03:47 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 28, 2018, 06:17:58 pm
Post by: iceball3 on April 28, 2018, 06:41:52 pm
To what degree do you want a player to be able to direct their scholars to naturalist, druidic magics that can be practiced by these tribes and other tribes (kobolds, animalmen, etc)? Are you looking towards any manner of arbitrary or cultural barrier (through ethics?) to prevent a dwarven fortress from being competent in all worldly magics, or are you content with the dwarves being able to potentially fully develop their knowledge on obscure magics, given the resources?
To my understanding, many rituals will continue to exist in low-myth mode, but clearly not effective, such as priesthood and rituals that work for the mentioned placebo reasons. In higher myth strength worlds, do you see this placebic magic continuing to coexist with functional magical practices between cultures due to incomplete knowledge concerning all worldly magic, or will the effects and proof of magic be overt enough that the standards for believing a type of magic exists end up being raised compared to real life?
Post by: KittyTac on April 28, 2018, 09:13:09 pm
Concerning the more isolated and obscure intelligent species, such as gnomes, pixies, merfolk, satyrs, etc... Will the first pass of the mythgen update have any affect on these specie's organization (roaming tribes, et cetera), and to what extent do you see them attempting any variety of effective and placebo magic?
To what degree do you want a player to be able to direct their scholars to naturalist, druidic magics that can be practiced by these tribes and other tribes (kobolds, animalmen, etc)? Are you looking towards any manner of arbitrary or cultural barrier (through ethics?) to prevent a dwarven fortress from being competent in all worldly magics, or are you content with the dwarves being able to potentially fully develop their knowledge on obscure magics, given the resources?
Obligatory reminder that there won't be a single magic system goes here.
Post by: iceball3 on April 28, 2018, 10:08:06 pm
Could you rephrase that?Concerning the more isolated and obscure intelligent species, such as gnomes, pixies, merfolk, satyrs, etc... Will the first pass of the mythgen update have any affect on these specie's organization (roaming tribes, et cetera), and to what extent do you see them attempting any variety of effective and placebo magic?
To what degree do you want a player to be able to direct their scholars to naturalist, druidic magics that can be practiced by these tribes and other tribes (kobolds, animalmen, etc)? Are you looking towards any manner of arbitrary or cultural barrier (through ethics?) to prevent a dwarven fortress from being competent in all worldly magics, or are you content with the dwarves being able to potentially fully develop their knowledge on obscure magics, given the resources?
Obligatory reminder that there won't be a single magic system goes here.
Post by: KittyTac on April 29, 2018, 12:17:26 am
Post by: iceball3 on April 29, 2018, 02:12:20 am
There won't be a single magic system. It will be procedurally generated for each world.Is it mechanically variable? Thematic? A lot of the changes between one magic system in another won't mean much at all if there's no unifying themes that they gravitate towards, considering that in it's current iteration, dwarf fortress largely lacks driven intent in actions. Most interactions and syndromes don't actually do anything directly in worldgen (there's special tags to cause transmission of werebeast and vampire curse that operate only in worldgen, and completely independent of any blood syndromes.)
Post by: Putnam on April 29, 2018, 02:14:06 am
Post by: King Zultan on April 29, 2018, 02:27:28 am
The existing myth generator footage should give you a good idea as to what sort of themes Dwarf Fortress magic will have.I haven't seen this, can I have a link?
Post by: Knight Otu on April 29, 2018, 02:34:56 am
The existing myth generator footage should give you a good idea as to what sort of themes Dwarf Fortress magic will have.I haven't seen this, can I have a link?
There are some short bits in here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyA4QD_6-2A), and a longer video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8zwPdPvN10). In the latter, Toady's part starts about 10 minutes in, I believe.
Post by: Doorkeeper on April 29, 2018, 02:42:14 am
Obligatory reminder that there won't be a single magic system goes here.
There won't be a single magic system. It will be procedurally generated for each world.
I am sure that knowledge is known to everyone here by now, except for newcomers and returning members. How would someone be misinformed that there would be no procedural magic system in the future, by giving an example of a magic class in order to illustrate an unrelated question? The example actually implies varieties, and it mentioned "low-myth mode" and "higher myth strength worlds", referencing the degrees of generated magic for different worlds.
Why is it an "obligatory reminder"? Said information is reposted throughout the website, I don't think there's a demand to write another one. You don't need to remind anyone in the forum unless they are obviously misinformed or specifically ask for it. And you can't expect for people to be properly informed when you answer with no clarity and consideration like your first response.
Post by: Doorkeeper on April 29, 2018, 02:43:48 am
Is it mechanically variable? Thematic? A lot of the changes between one magic system in another won't mean much at all if there's no unifying themes that they gravitate towards, considering that in it's current iteration, dwarf fortress largely lacks driven intent in actions. Most interactions and syndromes don't actually do anything directly in worldgen (there's special tags to cause transmission of werebeast and vampire curse that operate only in worldgen, and completely independent of any blood syndromes.)
I don't think he was implying that.
Post by: KittyTac on April 29, 2018, 03:00:36 am
Post by: iceball3 on April 29, 2018, 10:02:04 pm
Mechanically variable and will have worldgen effects. Also, RIP magic mods, these would have to be redesigned.That actually leads me to wonder, will the "Worldgen implications" of magic be emergent or hardcoded? In the former case, "social values" and civics need to actually be fleshed out properly to get an accurate reflection on what magic means to the population.
In simple terms, interactions which turn dwarves into amorphous masses that instantly evaporate into skin-boiling steam currently have no actual long term social implications in dwarf fortress by the effect alone: the closest you can get to that is writing in some lines in the raws that make the power itself seem ideologically repugnant.
Even still, the much-reviled necromancer towers never get torn down, even if sieging the location while setting the countryside ablaze would be sufficient for smoking out it's occupants. For example.
If the worldgen implications of magic will merely be thematically hardcoded, then the questions of "druidic themes" and whatnot aren't very farfetched, as the pool of themes you can draw from is just a bundle of stereotypes and preset stories told in different orders and with different faces, and the point of making magic procedural generated is basically just consulting a team of mediocre mod makers to make a bunch of DF Magic Mods with for you every time you kick on worldgen.
Post by: KittyTac on April 29, 2018, 10:09:02 pm
Post by: iceball3 on April 30, 2018, 07:15:20 am
The myth release will include preparation for Laws and Customs, Toady said that in an interview, that for example teleportation is possible, but it costs half of your blood, people would have to evaluate if it is worth it.Seeing that the law-and-customs release is going to have a hand in consideration for mythgen preparation gives me a bit of relief on this subject, then.
Post by: Bumber on April 30, 2018, 04:55:26 pm
I realize this a bit close to a suggestion/bugfix. However, it seems relevant to the imminent version release, and it's the end of the month, so I thought I'd ask.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 30, 2018, 05:13:15 pm
Is there going to be a way to add some kind of deadline to a mission in the next couple of updates? I hear other players having issues with squads wandering around forever.So long as there's news coming in every so often about what squads are up to, I not sure there's need for a time limit. It's a quest after all, not a military maneuver. It's the current silent 'are they broken, are they bar hopping?' uncertainty which is the main problem.
I realize this a bit close to a suggestion/bugfix. However, it seems relevant to the imminent version release, and it's the end of the month, so I thought I'd ask.
(Apologies for treating your question like the start of a suggestion discussion. Kind of seemed like one). :)
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2018, 02:22:21 am
Quote from: Warlord255
1) Are you planning to add more interesting behavior tokens for use by generated and/or mundane creatures?
As it stands, most monsters don't seem very proactive. Randomly generated interactions are cool, and are slated to get a lot cooler, but active trouble-seeking behavior is limited to a handful of tags. CRAZED, MISCHIEVOUS, BUILDINGDESTROYER and CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER come to mind, but not much else. Is there hope for a CURIOUSBEAST_GOBBLER, perhaps, that could result in forgotten beasts that "hunger for metal" and go around eating swords, or Giant Termites/Beavers that devour your wooden items?
2) Are you planning to use existing tools more extensively for more generated magic weirdness?
The Modding forum has achieved some seriously strange effects with the existing system, and it might be worth your time to take a look for ideas. There's so much that's possible already - grasses with SYN_INGESTED that turn horses into unicorns, EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECT to spawn syndrome vapors when you butcher a magic animal, acid-puking bite attacks by removing ENTERS_BLOOD from venom... even coal dust and exploding cursed gemstones! Seeing these types of effects in the Magic update would be a real treat.
There's a lot of work to do here, but it has never seemed like the right time to go into some of the details. It seems more likely when we do the individual combat stuff, for a lot of it, but some of the new random critters which come up in the magic release might lead to taking a look.
I'm not sure what the first magic system raws will look like, so it's a bit early to say. It's going to need a large change, but the existing interaction/syndrome framework will probably survive, even if interactions get hammered quite a bit. I'm going to focus on straightforward support for the new effects, rather than trying to overload existing tools, but I'm sure that'll come up from time to time.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
"Will semi-intelligent combatant's role in conflicts be more streamlined by the time of better integration into raiding and armies of war animals and mounts?"
I imagine this to be slightly different to the previous question on 'support roles' because already, goblins already employ trolls for off map conflicts implicitly of virtually any size without having to need to add any tags onto the creature themselves. It doesn't always turn out smoothly and you hear rumors about oddities like some trolls appearing wearing iron armor & others of goblins riding on their backs without much consistency as what to expect through a mixture of possibly buggy application.
I don't have a timeline for improving those definitions and wouldn't count on anything here. It is a problem, though, and trolls are especially strange the way the game treats them. We might see some stuff early, but it would probably be best handled when we have better underlying notions from the 'status' changes later on, where we'd have entire profiles defining the position of semi-intelligent creatures and how they and their co-residents understand the situation.
Quote from: Magistrum
Once we get tributes going, will we get demands from the mountain homes, like food for metropolises and equipment when in war time? Will they bear any resemblance to the current noble demand system?
We're focusing on tribute to the player at first, but having to serve your dwarven rulers is an eventual goal, especially tied to the start scenario stuff. As more army equipment/supply/economy features goes in, it can start to make sense. It would be best for it to be non-arbitrary, most of the time.
Quote from: vvAve
With the magic update, will world creation myth be incorporated in religions? Is it possible for different civilizations to share religion/pantheon?
Yeah, religions won't just incorporate the myths, but they will be entirely dependent on them. In the situation where the myth actors are real and global and involved, I imagine different civilizations will all share the same religion to a great degree, as there would be a larger corrective factor when people are wrong. If the powers have withdrawn or don't exist, sharing would be less common, depending on how the people came into being geographically, and we can sometimes be in the same situation we have in DF now where everybody is different. I'm hoping it can be a bit more flexible in terms of evolving beliefs and cultural drift/syncretism, but a lot of that will have to wait for the rewrites that'll allow the same for customs etc., after the magic release.
Quote from: Atomic Chicken
With the upcoming addition of medical care for adventurers, do you envision yourself making any changes to the wound system so as to increase the relevance of medical care as a game mechanic? At present, it is entirely possible for most creatures to survive having an entire limb severed off despite taking no measures to restrict blood loss, which is somewhat immersion-breaking to say the least. On a similar note, will the 'instant healing' effect of fast travelling and sleep be removed or modified in any way?
Yeah, we had some thoughts along these lines, but I'm not sure what'll end up happening. The medical notes both internally and from suggestions are extensive, but that makes for a large rewrite as well.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
How does the visitor cap interact with visiting groups (performance troupes and questers currently)? I can see three alternatives:
1. Current #visitors + group size > cap => Block the group from entering.
2. Cut the group entering at the point where the visitor cap is reached (which would explain why performance troupes typically arrive with only a few members, even when Legends info claims there are more members alive).
3. Lenient: If the first member of the group makes it in the whole group does (which can be problematic with infiltrator group armies [I had a 127 member army and a 120 member army {largely same members} before questers and monster hunters were made to respect the visitor cap]).
Terminology: "Infiltrator" = member of quester group who all go loyalty hostile when a group member leaves and returns attacking the fortress to get the artifact sought.
My understanding is that it always sums the total number of expected visitors and disallows the group if it would go over the cap. I imagine the troupes have various reasons (including bugs) as to why they might not travel together, but that's not the general intended behavior.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, tell us something of hill dwarves. I've read all you've said about them and their deep cousins in the past, but now that they're upcoming, how will they work exactly? They are dwarves from the surrounding abstract population near your fortress? Or are they the populations from the world's dwarf hillocks (presumably if any exist)? Which we'll be able to send into war, right?
Will that Just Fit with modded worlds? If we're playing elves (as some people are want to do, apparently) will we be able to call up the surrounding pops of animal people (which often flock to elf sites) to fight? Or will it just be a selection of elves? And indeed, in vanilla games will the surrounding non-dwarf pops also be eligible as "hill dwarves" ready for cannon fodder duty?
They'll have to be in hillocks; the current non-player forts don't have large abstract populations (if I remember, they shouldn't anyway, the caps are supposed to be low), and we'd continue that pattern. This might involve getting new hillocks closer to your fort when you become a barony through the existing post w.g. site foundation mechanic (the news of your elevation might come as they arrive), depending on what we can arrange for in this set of releases, or existing hillocks reassigned to your barony. Earning the barony early by force would have you using your site administrators on the human/elf/etc. sites you've conquered to levy human/etc. soldiers, which I imagine should have its downsides, whether we get to them or not.
It should all work in modded worlds, provided the modded populations are aboveground and fit whatever base requirements we have (for instance, are there baron-type land-holder linkages as the dwarves use, or a civ-entity-level position that puts you in charge of mobilization of all sites? the latter is less likely to be supported as it doesn't fit the vanilla mold, but we might get there depending on how the messengers/administration works.) If the animal people pops are integrated into a site using that relatively recent mechanic, they'll be available by default.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With the magic release, I expect the code for strange moods will be revised. I think we can expect magical effects tied to artifacts. But;
1. Can we expect artifacts to be de-hardcoded, so that, for instance newer skills like Pottery and Waxworking will be moodable, along with potentially nodded new skills and workshops?
2. Can we look forward to a general revision of workshops since this is tied to moods?
3. Will item type constrain the sort of spheres to which the artifact is attached, so that we are, for example, more likely to generate a golden sarcophagus of resurrection than a pig iron bucket that summons fluffy wambler remains?
4. Traditionally, wizard magic is a big no no for dwarves. Do you think we'll be able to make dwarf wizards anyway on our forts, if we want to?
1+2. It all ties into the base jobs being pulled into the raws, and I'm not sure that that'll happen here.
3. All manner of flavor is valuable, and I'm sure it'll respect certain facts about item type. Other item types might also be promoted by their incidental connections in a myth (at least that would be favorable.) It's hard to say what we'll get to, but linking a used item type in a myth to some power associated to that sort of object is the sort of thing we'll be doing generally.
4. It depends on what you mean and the settings for that world. "Geomancers" and "Rune <X>ers" are common dwarf 'wizard' types that aren't closely linked to the more-often-used priest powers. Then there's the more traditional links to magical item production, which is a sort of magic. The more vanilla settings will lean this way, toward 'dwarfy' magics, I suspect. Others will allow more arbitrary research and spell opportunities. Even in the vanilla settings, doing things like exploring runes and the powers of the earth would be on the table as research-style possibilities.
Quote from: eerr
I've seen projects like this before add choices. The choice between a prison colony and say, founding a powerful religious site or a new central mountainhome.
I can't remember the details, but people tended to choose things like the latter two. I am not saying a prison colony can't become almost the same thing, but people choose the latter two because it's more gratifying.
Starting a prison colony has a negative stigma.
1. How will starting scenarios enable people to fulfill their power fantasy?
2. One problem I found with embarking anywhere, is lack of access to hard metals, like iron, silver and copper. Will a retired mining colony be able to, indefinitely/for a very long time, supply these resources? It doesn't particularly matter to me if the mines are properly depleted, or just there for flavor. This is the main reason embarking anywhere is a problem.
1. Setting aside the prison scenario (where what is meant by a power fantasy would need to be established), I don't see why a power fantasy needs to be involved. Not everybody needs to want to play every scenario, though obviously a variety of factors will determine which ones I spend more time with, including player interest. There are entire popular games about prisons, so I don't suspect that'll be an issue, but I have no real idea.
2. Like for the economy when we are quantifying that? It should be possible to be supplied from other sites that specialize, yeah, though presumably you'd have a reason you are receiving it as well, and if your embark is economically worthless and not politically supported (in any broad sense), then you'd still have trouble. But a wider variety of sites would be supported, yeah.
Quote from: gnome
Do you eventually intend to implement the effects of starvation/dehydration into npcs for Adventure Mode? If so what arc would that be expected in (if any)? I imagine this sort of thing will have interesting effects on gameplay especially when the economy is reactivated, maybe even disputes between different civs could be about resources, or maybe questlines to fetch things for people as they are treated as necessary for survival. I could see the complexity of relations could be further elaborated on as "helping others" as a value becomes more important or more immediately relevant to some.
Yeah, we're hoping to have it for everybody. Which is hard. But it's mostly economy-related, yeah. We used to have the little schedules and magic food barrels, but now we have the food stockpiles they don't use (they are used in worldgen.) It's possible to do it properly, but we need food moving around for cities to function. Resource disputes are one of the reasons the economy had preceded the army stuff in certain dev road map formulations, but we've switched back around for the time being (and are paying for that in certain ways, but it has been okay so far.)
Quote from: Random_Dragon
Suppose you have a mod that changes entities to behave in a specific way that is required for some other aspect of the mod to function. Moreover, suppose that the future myth generator would potentially completely break this entity by forcing it to use hardcoded generated critters, entity tokens and such.
Is there going to be any way for a raw mod to restrict how mythgen is handled, so that if you want to FORCE the game to use certain civs it'll do so, regardless of mythgen settings?
The reason I ask this is because if this option does not exist, the myth arc is almost guaranteed to break pretty much every civ-focused raw mod in existence, and counting on the user to advanced-worldgen more "vanilla" worlds is not an optimal solution.
To be clear, I'm sure the myth release is going to break a ton of mods initially whether I address this particular concern or not. That is a given. Saves will also not survive.
I'm not sure what specific tag scenario you are imagining here, so it's hard to say what's going to happen. We've mentioned certain ways that a specific object (say, the dwarf) will be able to communicate restrictions up to the larger vanilla myth settings (by requesting, say, earth-related magics), without needing to change the settings themselves. There are other possibilities depending on what you mean. If somebody installs a mod, we could also provide ways for the mod to generally speak to or override params, since the installation of a mod is a buy-in at that point, though especially once we are messing around with editors and so forth, some in-DF handling of different mod folders/etc. on some kind of separated basis of the various kinds suggested over the years might need another look. With some degree of that, total conversion style mods should be able to side step myth gen entirely (this is also implicit in the notion of editors, so some form of it is definitely going in with those.) So, I wouldn't be concerned, but the first release will by bumpy (for a zillion reasons.)
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
When you rewrite the map code, can we expect to see any change to aquifers?
I imagine that new versions will include a "vanilla" setting that includes the standard races and enemies with which we are familiar, like the flesh-eating elves and mischievous kobolds. Do you have in mind a standard "vanilla" set of rules in mind for magic and myth once it's implemented, either as a baseline from which other modes deviate or as one permutation amongst many?
It's possible; everything would be a little less layer-focused, though there'd still be geological features.
Aside from the sliders, there's also the idea of having a default set of (right now) sphere-related tags that can guide the generation to vaguely e.g. 'dwarfy' magics, and also the idea of having strict set features in the raws. We're in a complicated situation now of saying which is more vanilla -- strict presets, or rough guidelines. Currently, we're leaning toward sliders and guidelines as being the most vanilla-feeling options, so that people will engage with the new features. At the same time, there's some value in having a set frame, and perhaps we'll still have one of those. This also raises the question of, once we have editors, should there be an even more fixed setting for people to play around with, and should the game have a world packed-in? That feels very non-DF-ish, but it might also serve as a useful example in any editors. But yeah, I imagine the 'dwarfy guidelines' option will be the one put forth as The Default for the use of new players.
Quote from: keupo
The new outdoor cleaning feature is nice, but it poses a real problem in evil biomes with blood rain. An order, like the gather refuse outside order, but for cleaning outside would be great. Is this something I could hope for?
It's possible for us to take another pass at it, especially if new issues have arisen. I can collect issues with the new system over in suggestions more easily.
Quote from: voliol
What are your thoughts on creatures that went extinct after the technological cutoff of year 1500 (e.g. dronts, tasmanian devils)? Are they excluded from the lists of animals that might be added in the future?
Knight Otu mentioned DF Talk where I said I'm not getting rid of polar bears, and that stands generally. It would be very depressing. If I remember, a few of our animals were sponsored back in the sponsorship drive specifically so they'd have a home even after they disappear. Which is also depressing, but in any case I'm not going to remove them. So I'm happy to add the others, though clearly adding specific animals of any kind should not be the highest priority right now as we've already given short shrift to the ones we did add.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will historical figure dwarves pick up memories in worldgen too? Some of my migrants are war veterans with hundreds of kills and histories of surviving multiple massacres.
I thought about doing this, but it's not entirely simple, as the circumstances and incidents don't exist in the same way. Having to write a parallel system put inertia on it, but it's on the table now, and would certainly make existing historical figures more interesting characters and also foreground some of the legends.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Though it may be self explanatory, will "memories" make the dwarves omniscience without the world end and help them to become more conscious by expressing personal things that have happened to them rather than abstract random civilization events. Poorly travelled dwarves being ignorant etc.
As in to give a relevant example, more strictly enforced civilization & personal level knowledge events, sort of like messing with the configuration that only makes them aware of things that happened on site, and losing touch with the progress of the world if they are separated from regular diplomatic visits from caravans & visitors.
and a side question
Will past memories & events scribed into books, engravings and passed down through generations of oral stories affect dwarves recollection of events?
The memories form when the dwarf has a personal experience, so it's a new system not related to the current entity-level omniscience regarding world events; I can't use memories to model world knowledge more generally as we'd run out of memory doing that. The best we have is having civilization/culture-linked rumors, which at least stops the instant spread of knowledge everywhere, and the current witness memories which don't spread if the person doesn't get a chance to spread them.
I haven't done anything with memories and media/art/stories.
Quote from: Rubik
So, Toady, now that Dwarves risk becoming perma-depressed over a spouse dying (according to the upcoming stress balance update), Is there any plans to allow dwarves to remarry? would be tiresome to get the tavern full of grieving dwarves after every battle with the goblins if they never leave it
I don't have a specific timeline for this, but generally, the personal relationships should be more complicated and less static than they are now.
Quote from: Beag
1. Once the myth and magic update is released/partially released in worlds that have magic will NPC wizards make their own discoveries about magic during world generation? If so how wide spread could the knowledge they discover become?
2. Will each world with magic also generate it's own ways of researching magic and magical secrets or will there be a common set of ways or researching magic?
3. Once one of our adventurer wizards makes a discovery will that discovery be revealed in the myth viewer sort of like a fog of war with magic information?
4. Will our adventurers in some worlds with magic be able to make advances in discovering magical secrets with their own research or will they always need the help of a well established NPC wizard?
1. Yeah, similar to the current library system for instance, where knowledge is both discovered and spread in w.g. and somewhat in post w.g., though I imagine scholars won't be the only interested actors here.
2. It'll generate them. I imagine people will see all of the general contours pretty quickly, over a few worlds with enough systems, as with most procedural generation, but the details and interconnections should keep it interesting.
3. There are currently events for the first discoverer of a knowledge bit for the scholars/libraries, and I don't imagine that'll change.
4. As with libraries, forts will have a bit of an advantage, given the number of people, at least for magic that can be researched in one location (or with helper squads.) We're hoping to get player adventurers more involved in research this time, but I'm not sure if that crosses back into having them do discoveries in the regular scholar system; it seems possible we'll start having different time passage systems for adventurers.
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2018, 02:22:47 am
Quote from: squamous
1. Could we expect the ability to fast-travel through dark pits/caves if they are inhabited by friendly creatures in the near or far future? What about fording rivers or climbing mountains, though those might be tied to skills like swimming and climbing.
2. What exactly is the current reload time for bows and crossbows? Is there a difference between the two?
3. Would it eventually be possible to adjust the parameters of cave civs to create sites that are less labyrinthine? Sort of like the current worldgen settings for cavern passage density.
4. If [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] is added to an intelligent creature set to only spawn as the pets of an existing civilization, will fully-fledged civilized creatures be drawn from that population of pets, or is it required that they spawn in the wilderness to join a civilization as a proper member?
1. I won't be touching the underground before the map rewrite. There is a decent chance of many things being handled then. I know river crossing is annoying, though I don't have a timeline on fixing that. Mountains are less clear; as they get steeper and more cliff-like again, it should be a local achievement to climb them, if there's any chance you can fall.
2. There is no reloading, there is a post shot delay, if I remember, which is a silly system we've wanted to change for years. I don't think we distinguished the weapons.
3. All of the sites need a lot of parameters. I agree the current dwarf/etc. sites are still completely frustrating.
4. I don't think it draws from pet populations.
Quote from: thvaz
Apart from being replaced by equal or stronger events, do long term memories fade over time? That is, they lose strength over the years to give the chance to other not so strong events to replace it in that long term memory spot?
That doesn't happen yet; that's the kind of thing I was considering under "grappling with long term memories" in the dev log, along with grouping memories in life stages. Whether that always means fading over time, or obsessing on a single memory, or whatever, would depend on the memory and the person, probably, as we have personality traits for that. Whatever we end up with should be interesting, story-building, relayed to the player, and not always about the simple dooming of forts. Certainly the form it has now will need to be adjusted.
Quote from: golemgunk
Are memory slots going to be tied to the Memory attribute?
This kind of major emotional memories seem like something that everybody would have if they have a memory at all... memory as an attribute should be more subtle. Of course, right now it's so subtle as to be useless, so something has to give somewhere.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I think most people can imagine at least 8 horrific things that could happen over the course of a couple of years in-game, but what are potential long-term good memories that might help sooth a poor dorf's life? Getting married, having children, crafting ones first masterwork (possibly), being elected mayor (maybe), what else?
Depending on the person, falling in love, getting out of prison, mastering a skill... perhaps more, but they aren't trivial to look up as the emotion type impacts the magnitude of the effect and those have personality branches. We'll have to develop the system more as discussed if the balance of good memories isn't enough, and it likely isn't.
Quote from: Lordfiscus
1. Will you be able to reverse undeath in the future? Or, in the case of sentient race's corpses, will undead/thralls be able to have their minds restored? Could one have a thrall fortress, then?
2. Will "Magic Missile"-type spells exist? How effective will they be, if not analogous to crossbow bolts/arrows?
3. I've heard that casting will be song-based from other users. Will this be the only way to cast spells, or will there be more classical methods, a la wands/books/staves/talismans? Does the material used to make such items affect casting functionality? Could a metal casting tool double as a bludgeoning weapon? Will one be able to make dual weapons/casting tools which the user alternates based on distance to target/threat severity?
4. What is the malus to using casting, if any? Is it simply how many times you can use a casting tool/ability per action? Like if it's song-based, the number of mouths on the creature? Or will there be a mana/focus/essence count that depletes as spells are used?
5. Can spells be fired through fortifications or is there a chance the projectile will hit the fortifications as it moves if too large, possibly setting off spell prematurely?
6. Can casting devices be made, a la ballistae or catapults, or even traps?
1. Will mind-affecting spells exist? Includes: Memory-alteration/removal/inclusion, intelligence reduction/increase, raising/lowering the speed at which dwarves become proficient at their craft, and writing curses on walls that compel readers to read the information on them and convey it to others, repeating the curse's effect. Also possibly something inducing berserk states.
1. That seems like a system-dependent question, and you'd have to address what happens if all the bits are scattered around and so forth. Certain types of 'undeath' involve an ostensibly deadish body but the original soul is still in there and it's just sort of a curse. This might be reversible. Others would require the restoration of a desiccated corpse while the soul is also reunited with the body, etc.
2. It really depends on the system it makes. Little flying bolts of magical energy can be a fine thing, ranging from pinpricks to instadeath. Each take on it changes the nature of the world and society to a varying degree. Other worlds won't have that kind of magic; certainly some people will want it turned off.
3. There will be various methods, depending on what it cooks up. Songs are simply on the table as an option, since we have them (along with dance and poetry, etc.) In the current myth generator example, I think it had some material dependent examples. You can whack people with most stuff in DF, so I imagine that tradition will continue.
4. Yeah, it's all on the table. We're hoping to vaguely be able to match casting costs and powers (if desired by setting, which it usually is), but I'm sure there'll be some initial and ongoing spectacular failures there.
5. Hard to say. Arrows currently work that way, so it seems possible.
6. Similarly, as we get more far afield, the less likely something will pop up on the first pass, but we're up for supporting anything that appears in a generic fantasy setting, and magical traps and magical siege weapons are all in there.
1. All of those effects are in our candidate list which the myth generator currently uses (not the wall one specifically, but the idea of controlling actions and forced questing.) It just depends on any implementation stumbling blocks we run into.
Quote from: thvaz
Will we have the framework for raiders expanded somewhat while you are working on off site armies? For example, sending provisions/cargo animals for the loot, etc . Or this is going to be developed post magic updates?
It depends; we're really not ready for masses of goods to be moved around, but slightly expanding the volume from tribute/raiding would be fine. I'm not sure what I'll get to.
Quote from: Disgrunt
How will priests, and the role they play in different cultures, intersect with the Myth/Magic update? Will priests have access to some kind of magic or divine powers? Will players be able to become priests?
There are a variety of possibilities depending on the ongoing relationship between people and gods, if they exist. The player should have access to religious powers in both modes if they exist and overlap with the current playable roles (ie, not just restricted to a human ruler from a specific bloodline or whatever.)
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Do NPCs in adventure mode ever reflect on their memories when you ask them about their emotional state?
If they are currently reflecting on them, it'll be part of their emotional state, but the question doesn't trigger new thoughts.
Quote from: ShinyandKittens
What will portals do? Can they be two-way transports to other locations, or a thing that creates new creatures? Can demons emerge from them? Can they appear in fort mode and summon vermin? Can they be summoned manually? How? Lots more questions
PatrikLundell mentioned doing one-way is easier, and will be the starting point, especially if the map rewrite is not done. Once they connect two loaded locations, if they are that sort of portal, then anything should be able to pass through (if allowed by the rules of magic); vermin or dwarves or items or whatever. You get into issues with how projectiles work, since it depends on whether a projectile that enters a tile is also supposed to have entered the portal; in the past, doing things like directions has been hard to display, but some portals will definitely want directions so that for instance magma could pour out of them in a given direction -- then what happens when a creature enters that square from the other side in the non-magma world? Ideally, this would be set by the system, but practically, certain options will be much harder than others to implement, especially where efficient path-finding is involved.
Quote from: Goonts
With the myth and magic arc will choosing a demigod adventurer affect the way the game will be played in any new ways?
Like will choosing demigod actually give you specific divine parentage? Of course this would rely on the setting, but could you be given powers based on your parentage?
Or will the demigod setting just be renamed to something else, or simply kept as is with no further affects other than increased attribute and skill points?
We were hoping to get to this at some point, and we'd be in a better position to do it, anyway. At the time, if the demigod setting doesn't make sense for a given world, it'd be renamed or removed, yeah, and generally, there will be whole new options specifically tied to the system created for that world, much like other games' settings, where you might start as a "magma-souled dwarven runecaster" or something sufficiently dwarf-silly, with some exposition as to how that ties into the magic system and legends and society.
Quote from: Oreos
When planes are released will the location of hell be able to change in world gen?, and if so will the spires be replaced by portals to the plane of hell?
The planar relationships are determined by the myth. Hell might not even exist in any sense. We do need to consider the various practical game effects of different configurations for fort mode especially, so that digging doesn't become entirely boring, at least in whatever passes for vanilla settings or a vanilla family of settings (not that other settings should be boring, but you should be able to make them boring if you want.)
Quote from: Egan_BW
Is it at all disturbing to implement the system that will allow countless tiny bearded people to remember their traumatic experiences for the rest of their lives?
It hasn't gotten to the point where it truly bothers me, but you do get surprised sometimes and then think a bit, when you see some horrible example. Zach says he doesn't get disturbed by the horrifying events in his own writing, and it's similar, though the procedural aspect can catch you a bit more off-guard.
Quote from: KittyTac
Will we be able to introduce violence to normally non-violent worlds?
That wouldn't be defined by a single slider at the end of the day I think. The original slider I was thinking of would not allow violent actions, and would try to intercept anything accidentally bad from happening, or outright turn it off as cases come up. On the other hand, a world could be set to have very peaceful myths and generally be a friendly place, but with the originally-mentioned slider set at normal. At that point, it'd be more up to you if you want to be disruptive.
Quote from: iceball3
Hey Toady, how often are historical figures pulled from sitepops in worldgen, and in what conditions? For the most part, this question concerns full grown adults being pulled into existence without known lineage, in particular, or is there retroactive lineage generation?
Relating to the first question, what sort of balance do you wish to strike from the following two directions?:
-That frequently pulling adults into existence during worldgen is immersively destructive, due to the sheer amount of individuals who seem to exist with no historical relation to any individuals, and no family to direct the course of their actions in any way.
-That infrequently pulling individuals into existence during worldgen can cause issues in that tightly knit family trees have much more involvement in everything that occurs in the world than anyone else, and that their limited numbers can cause issues if a significant amount of them find vital roles not their calling. That it is also difficult to counter this due to the limitation of the drag on worldgen that excessive historical figures causes.
It happens quite a bit, as far as I can tell. I haven't run metrics on it. If it needs to fill a position, it does it, and I think it also tries to keep 2.5% of a site's population historical, or something like that, so not every story is related to positions of power (though they end up assuming them anyway.) It doesn't try to retroactively generate anything, as this can become a problem of contradictions with all the details floating around, though we've thought about some methods involving population history tracking (so it could at least get the site timings correct and give suddenly elevated people a slight yet consistent backstory.)
Indeed, there is a balance to be struck, and we're trying to land somewhere in the center there. It would be best to have everybody, but we can't do that, so every answer is somewhat unsatisfactory, but I don't like going to either extreme. There's also the issue of geographic imbalance; with the cap, historical figures can end up all on one side of the world, unless we pull them out of thin air evenly from sites throughout the world (the 2.5% bit, which favors the sites which are not already oversaturated.)
Quote from: ShinyandKittens
About one-way portals, will there be Necromancer-like raids coming out of them? Kinda like “other realm” stuff. It would be intimidating to see a field of portals opening, summoning a creature, and closing.
Yeah, we are looking forward to it, he he he. Naturally it can be a bit frustrating to have your fort instakilled by some magical nonsense, but there's a middleground where things can be interesting and challenging, and perhaps a bit unfair sometimes.
Quote from: saharo
1) With the Myth&Magic system, will we see magical auras? Like the Surrounding system, an area might also be associated with a Myth, and exhibit properties of that Myth. Let's say the Myth generation creates a connection between ice, lizardmen and silver (I will call these spheres), and an area highly aligned with this Myth would be colder, show often snow, ice formations, lizard-like creatures, abundant silver veins, silver colored trees, and in general entities associated with those spheres.
2) Again on this aura concept. Will we see the properties of an area modify the value of its surrounding? E.g. a fortress with a shrine to a God: will the influence of that God increase with the prayers? Will we see anything like of building a fortress in an evil biome and trying to create and expand an aura that opposes the evil biome and having the evil biome effects less strong closer to the church?
Always on this, let's say there's an area with a verdant pine forest and full of bears, and the Myth generation creates a connection between a lightning god, bears and pine trees. Given how the area "looks like" that Myth, will the association of this area with this Myth increase over time, and see the place get more lightning storm, flowers that give you a shock if you eat them, then magical creatures of lightning and so on?
3) I see dwarves being more and more creative, telling stories, playing make believe, now even writing fiction books. Will this be expanded to fairytales? And could very famous fairytales have a concrete effect on the world, and be part of some sort of Myth generation during game time? The idea being that fairies inhabit the world of imagination and a strong believe can summon the fairies to the real world. Sufficient people telling the story of the big bad wolf living in a certain cave, has the effect of actually bringing a big bad fairy wolf to that very cave.
1) Yes, this is quite likely, as we've discussed sphere-oriented regions etc. in the past, and this concept can be extended and related to the myth generator etc. along various axes and to whatever mechanic.
2) This is a system dependent question; magic doesn't always need to be contagious in that way, but it is a legitimate fantasy mechanism, so we'll be trying to support it in the underlying way we do sphere-oriented regions generally, as 'change' is one of our guiding themes, the ability to make an area more or less magical if the system permits it (some magic might be permanent in the system.)
3) This is a specific mechanism, but I'm aware of some settings/RPGs that work this way, so technically this kind of thing is on the table. It's more difficult than the others, though, at least doing it well and getting the frequency and exposition right.
Quote from: Rubik
Having said that Now that we are gonna get assasinations and kidnapping missions in all modes, is it the time to make knocking out and dragging unconscious enemies possible?
If it were, will the also upcoming medical stuff in adv. mode include sleep/alertness inducing herbs to poison enemies?
None of these things are strictly necessary (verbal threats would satisfy the minimum requirement), so offering a timeline is difficult. The more stuff the better, but we want to try to cover a breadth of ground on this set of releases.
Quote from: ZM5
In regards to conveying information more openly in adventure mode, do you intend making NPCs convey their emotions in more ways than merely stating them? I.e smiling when making a good deal, shrieking in pain when taking damage, or some of the mannerisms that are currently described only in fort mode? Would be fun to encounter the occasional hysterical bandit that loudly screams when lightly tapped. Or the psycho who grins as he/she is getting stabbed.
What about nobles? Would they say what they're nobles of? I often find an issue with various bandit leaders not really stating what they're leaders of, making it hard to tell if they're really relevant enough to bother with, same with other nobles - would be a definite improvement
Non-verbal communication is not a priority right now, but we'd like to do more. Part of it has to do with them not having emotional reactions to many important places where that would matter, like specific statements, but rather to broad dwarf-mode-style situations. So there's some background work that needs doing.
A certain subsection of the question of noble affiliation is villain exposition, which we're going to try to find some time to focus on as we do those plots.
Quote from: iceball3
Concerning the more isolated and obscure intelligent species, such as gnomes, pixies, merfolk, satyrs, etc... Will the first pass of the mythgen update have any affect on these specie's organization (roaming tribes, et cetera), and to what extent do you see them attempting any variety of effective and placebo magic?
To what degree do you want a player to be able to direct their scholars to naturalist, druidic magics that can be practiced by these tribes and other tribes (kobolds, animalmen, etc)? Are you looking towards any manner of arbitrary or cultural barrier (through ethics?) to prevent a dwarven fortress from being competent in all worldly magics, or are you content with the dwarves being able to potentially fully develop their knowledge on obscure magics, given the resources?
To my understanding, many rituals will continue to exist in low-myth mode, but clearly not effective, such as priesthood and rituals that work for the mentioned placebo reasons. In higher myth strength worlds, do you see this placebic magic continuing to coexist with functional magical practices between cultures due to incomplete knowledge concerning all worldly magic, or will the effects and proof of magic be overt enough that the standards for believing a type of magic exists end up being raised compared to real life?
We'll want to do some things with the new critters, and this might impact the existing critters, but it's hard to say how far we'll get. Some of it seems more the purview of the customs/property/etc. stuff, but as we've said with divine law, there could be precursors that come up beforehand. Every appropriate traditionally-magical raw creature will be on the table for magical additions according to their raw settings, just in the way dwarves are. So it depends on how much we go in and edit each of those objects, which seems like a good thing to do, and not incredibly difficult once the basic system works.
The myth generator already has some hard barriers (species, bloodline, etc.), and softer barriers are fair as well. I imagine we can get to a setting that makes all magic systems universal if restrictions are bothersome to some people. We're certainly hoping to make things like necromancy more horrifying than they currently are to the average society, and that will hopefully come up in fort mode as well.
Yeah, it's perfectly fine for ineffective systems to be created and persist, even in the face of working systems. However, like you say, evidence of working magic should have some effect on world-view and system adoption rates (or whatever we get to), until the use of proper magic becomes more common. This doesn't mean that people will necessarily give up their old systems; they might persist together, or people might keep them for reasons of tradition while knowing they aren't effective. Ideally. Messing with this will possibly wait until we have some more frameworks for the society in general, but things like "views on <x> magic" are on the table for the first release, and societal change as it concerns magic might also be considered (though societal change is hard without the new culture frameworks from the scenario arc.)
Quote from: Bumber
Is there going to be a way to add some kind of deadline to a mission in the next couple of updates? I hear other players having issues with squads wandering around forever.
It depends on the sort of mission. They'll bar-hop for artifacts for some months, but if it's a raid or to do with squads with members stuck in the fort, then we'll address the ones on the tracker at some point. I still have bugs to address for this release, but it depends on what's there and how long they take; there are still crashes for instance.
Post by: ZM5 on May 01, 2018, 04:03:37 am
I think what Random_Dragon meant is in regards to mods that have their own "lore" and so on that require specific tokens to always function a certain way, because otherwise they wouldn't make sense - so we'd require tokens restricting certain stuff, i.e so they don't use procedural creatures as pets, don't use magic outside of ones defined by the modder, or so their creation myths are always the same ones that are defined by the modder, rather than procedural ones per world. This is mostly flavor stuff, but I'd imagine there could be gameplay-related issues if more randomness is added that we cannot restrict in the raw files.
Post by: Bumber on May 01, 2018, 04:55:55 am
So long as there's news coming in every so often about what squads are up to, I not sure there's need for a time limit. It's a quest after all, not a military maneuver. It's the current silent 'are they broken, are they bar hopping?' uncertainty which is the main problem.It doesn't do much good to know what your dwarves are up to if they end up on a permanent wild goose chase. For example, if an artifact instrument is in the possession of a band of world-traveling performers. A deadline seems like the most practical end condition. Otherwise, we need to make sure the message can actually get to the squad.
(Apologies for treating your question like the start of a suggestion discussion. Kind of seemed like one). :)
From Toady's reply, it sounds like there is, or will be, an automatic deadline of a few months.
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2018, 04:59:12 am
Post by: Bumber on May 01, 2018, 05:04:12 am
Wait, you said memory doesn't do much, I'm not just imagining things when it seems to help retain more of the "previously viewed but not visible" layout especially when deep in a catacomb or sewer, am I?That's pretty much all it does, which is adventurer exclusive.
Post by: Max™ on May 01, 2018, 02:00:05 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 02, 2018, 11:19:55 am
Quote
With some degree of that, total conversion style mods should be able to side step myth gen entirely (this is also implicit in the notion of editors, so some form of it is definitely going in with those.)
That's what I'm hoping for, yeah. Total conversions are going to be rather painful to integrate into this unless you give modders some degree of control via raw methods.
Thanks for the answers, Toady.
I think what Random_Dragon meant is in regards to mods that have their own "lore" and so on that require specific tokens to always function a certain way, because otherwise they wouldn't make sense - so we'd require tokens restricting certain stuff, i.e so they don't use procedural creatures as pets, don't use magic outside of ones defined by the modder, or so their creation myths are always the same ones that are defined by the modder, rather than procedural ones per world. This is mostly flavor stuff, but I'd imagine there could be gameplay-related issues if more randomness is added that we cannot restrict in the raw files.
Gameplay concerns are a thing, yeah. There are a lot of ways I can see it going wrong.
Post by: Knight Otu on May 02, 2018, 12:14:18 pm
Post by: gnome on May 02, 2018, 01:52:28 pm
Post by: Buttery_Mess on May 04, 2018, 01:20:53 pm
Will we ever be able to encrust our weapons with gems? Incorporating magical gems into sword pommels seems a pretty common trope in fantasy settings.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 04, 2018, 01:27:48 pm
Also weapons can already be encrusted with gems, I believe. Not magical ones given those don't exist yet, but the leap wouldn't be hard to make given the current system.
Post by: iceball3 on May 04, 2018, 05:05:43 pm
What's the current rationale for travel (fast travel, caravans, and embarking) through mountains being blocked? I assumed initially it had to do with provisions, but deserts can be crossed with ease, and mountains do not frequently have difficult cliffs, or any less forageable resources than elsewhere (adventurers still get hungry and thirsty as they normally do off mountains, right?)
If the current behavior is unintended, is the direction you'd like to take in justifying the limitation (mountains generating such that it is a lot more difficult to traverse, high altitude hazards, etc) or just opening mountains to travel?
Post by: falcc on May 04, 2018, 07:28:33 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on May 05, 2018, 04:44:02 pm
I should add I have not actually had this bug happen to me, but it's been an issue for some people...
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 05, 2018, 04:50:43 pm
Now that the game has: "Side-stepped unit load failure, creating substitute unit upon irreversible corruption" - does this mean the "nemesis unit load failure" bug has been fixed?Yes, that's the issue. Note that it's side-stepping the issue by unit recreation, which should stop it from crashing, but since the actual reason(s) for units to become corrupt in the first place is unknown the underlying cause hasn't been fixed. When Toady mentioned that the issue had been handled he said there would be a log indicating a problem was found.
I should add I have not actually had this bug happen to me, but it's been an issue for some people...
Post by: Phenoix12 on May 07, 2018, 04:07:10 pm
1. Is it possible with the magic world generation to create very strange worlds? Like worlds that have no sun and are cast into eternal darkness or worlds comprised of floating islands over a sea of lava and FUN. (or just some floating islands in general... because building a fortress that hangs under a floating island just sounds awesome)
2. Will we eventually see more complex reaction between civilizations and races. Like people generating stereotypes and hatred for certain races and groups based on interactions? Or say a race of elves living isolated for their entire history meeting a human adventure for the first time thus having no idea what a human is.
3. Will language be expanded on like music and such. Being randomly generated and having to be taught/learned? It be interesting to see if one language rises to the top of the heap to become that worlds version of 'common' Or if the myth/history generate makes a single world language that was created by a god for the people to use. Also maybe species with langagues that can't be spoken or understood by others do some some biological reasion.
Post by: Golden on May 07, 2018, 08:22:09 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 08, 2018, 03:20:34 am
1. Very strange worlds, yes, definitely (I believe Toady has used something akin to living as gut bacteria in giant intestines as an example). Given that floating islands is a common fantasy theme I would expect them to show up eventually in some form (flying/floating magical land forms may be closer than whole worlds of flying islands).
@Golden: Looks very much like a suggestion to me, and thus might fit better in the suggestions sub forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0)).
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on May 08, 2018, 03:46:34 am
I was wondering if when demanding tribute from other civilizations there would be any way to set a preference level for certain items i.e. food, bars, animals etc. Do you think that this could ever be an option and if so would it be similar to the trade agreement menu?
This was addressed in the March FotF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf//index.php?topic=159164.msg7701845#msg7701845) answers (snipped out the relevant parts) ^^
Quote from: Toady
...I haven't created a very specific Loot Menu yet. I imagine this will happen, as people will want to direct the sorts of items returned.
Quote from: Toady
Quote from: DwarfuWhat form will tribute take and how will it arrive at the player’s fort?......Like the looting, there isn't a menu to make it specific yet, but we'll get to that in time.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 08, 2018, 04:45:12 am
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on May 08, 2018, 04:54:37 am
I think even in worlds where there is a 'true' myth/religion, there will be plenty of people who have a different idea of how things work. It's not just in myth-low worlds, worlds without gods, etc., where different non-real ideas should be generated, I feel. People come up with their own ideas of how things work, even if they're not real (we can see this is true even without assuming an atheistic view of the real world just from the simple fact that there exist mutually exclusive ideas/religions). I don't think the presence of a 'real' myth or god(s) should change that.
I've seen Toady make diverse statements in this regard, so I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. If anybody knows how to make this into an actual question, please be my guest.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 08, 2018, 05:27:51 am
(I know the initial world myth is one 'truth' that's interpreted by each civ, but I mean on a more granular scale within each civilization).
Post by: squamous on May 08, 2018, 01:04:08 pm
1. I saw in the development plans that adventure mode might be getting ridable mounts at some point in the future. How will this affect NPCs? Will we see knights riding horses or mounted bandits and stuff like that in adventure mode? Also, if you had an amphibious mount, could you cross the ocean with it on the world map? Would that affect civilizations and let them colonize or attack other continents? It might be a good placeholder for cross-continental travel until boats are implemented.
2. Are there any plans to let the player teach secrets they learn in worldgen before the magic arc?
3. Mountain roads are currently impassible for adventure mode characters (in the world map anyways), but will NPC groups like armies that would otherwise be separated by a mountain range be able to use them to cross the mountains?
4. Regarding the addition of hillocks to a fortress's surroundings, what will happen to modded civilizations that use, say, hamlets and cities as their site type? Would a fortress belonging to that civilization spawn hamlets, or hillocks? Or would there be errors and bugs in such an event?
Post by: falcc on May 08, 2018, 03:03:04 pm
Let's see how many steps removed we are from a carp moat in adventure mode.
Post by: saharo on May 09, 2018, 10:20:38 am
Ars Magica is a pen&paper rpg many have heard of, Tarn brothers included I'm sure. I'm a big fan for so many reasons. One being that the system invites the players to engage together in creating a "Covenant": a settelment guided by wizards, typically estabilished in some magical place. It consists of defining how this settlement looks like and works. And the game itself revolves around the stories that spin from this place, how they fit into the world, deal with the supernatural and the mundane....it's REALLY
So, once and for all, I ask Toady One and Treetoe
Has Ars Magica ever sparked your interest? Did you read, or plan to read some material on the setting and the game mechanic?
I realize that Dwarf Fortress aims to implement a generator of systems more than a single one, but I'm still pointing as possible sources of inspiration to:
- Ars Magica organic view of Magic, how mysterious it is, delicate, powerful, subtle...
- How magic can be a part of Nature, not something created by a supernatural entity. Hard to grasp but a natural phenomenon like any other...like quantum mechanics
- how an accademic Mage's life looks like, how magic research works, how a laboratory works
- how a society of Mages may look like
- how different magic traditions (and not only accademical ones) can coexist in the same world
- how the magic, the fairies, the divine and other supernatural entities interact with each other and evolve, through the interaction of man and without
- and for last what AM is most famous for - its spell system. Maybe the less interesting thing for DF but if you know about it, I'd like to know if it may inspire spells in DF
I don't number the points in the list, as this question is more of a blob. I promise I'll shut my mouth about Ars Magica after this one :-X and thank you very much as always for your care for us fan :)
Post by: Magistrum on May 10, 2018, 09:49:37 pm
Because if I ever get a chance to regrow my dwarves limbs I will abuse it:
Will there be conditions on how many times something can be the target of a spell? Can we try to congeal a bucket of water and get told "The substance has become magically inert."? Or try to heal our companion for the thousandth time and get "This creature has become saturated with energy."?
Also because sometimes it feels like I'm getting attacked for very little reason, Is there any plans for forcing emotional state without altering memories? The straight eared goblin suddenly feels calm. Can we otherwise make someone forget what they are doing?
Toady talks a bit about keeping players free, but still letting dwarves have an identity, Do you feel magic mechanisms and machines feel "dwarfy"? Is it something that feels appropriate, or something to tolerate like venom and poison?
For the closer future:
Dwarves are a disorganized mess in combat, while this is understandable, Are we going to see some effects of the tactician skill in the fortress before jumping on to magic? Will we be able to make dwarves hold their ground against a force?
On a similar note, Will dwarves be able to take cover from missile fire and still have LOS, firing, using something other than fortifications? Boulders? Buildings? Tables? Trees? Large dead bodies?
Post by: KittyTac on May 10, 2018, 11:19:31 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on May 11, 2018, 06:51:38 am
So as far as I can see, the administration of sites outside of your fortress seems to be one of the current things that are being worked on.
What exactly are the current goals you have in mind for the administration feature? I mean what kind of abilities will this give access to the player? I think I heard of requesting/sending migrants and soldiers. Is this about what to expect in the next releases?
And a completely unrelated question:
Have you ever considered livestreaming yourself coding? Maybe just as a one time event to try it. I've seen other developers do it and there's definitely people who like to watch that kinda stuff. It would be an interesting way to engage with the community, I think, and maybe it could also lead to a surge of donations. (In that case, I guess it would be best to actually do that during the long wait for the myth release.)
Of course you might just not want people to look over your shoulder while you're working, which would be totally understandable.
Post by: Knight Otu on May 11, 2018, 11:36:40 am
And a completely unrelated question:
Have you ever considered livestreaming yourself coding? Maybe just as a one time event to try it. I've seen other developers do it and there's definitely people who like to watch that kinda stuff. It would be an interesting way to engage with the community, I think, and maybe it could also lead to a surge of donations. (In that case, I guess it would be best to actually do that during the long wait for the myth release.)
Of course you might just not want people to look over your shoulder while you're working, which would be totally understandable.
Not sure whether Toady's last answer from 2015 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg6583653#msg6583653) is still current, but here it is:
Quote
Quote from: SizikWould you ever consider livestreaming DF development (e.g. on Twitch)?I haven't watched livestreamed development, so I don't know how to make it unboring. Everybody that has come by to film etc. here has had plans to showcase development, which they then scrap after a few minutes because it is so dull.
Post by: Robsoie on May 11, 2018, 01:15:02 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/U0KpyZV.gif)
It made me wonder, as it's not the first fortress in which i had a king choosen like that and as far as i remember it had happened for a few years already.
As historically a pretender reaching an understanding with his rivals in "polite discussion" in order to be choosen as a king wasn't really the only way this happened, will we see in the future many more methods a dwarven pretender can rise on a throne in your own fortress (i mean at gameplay time in opposite to worldgen) ?
Post by: Death Dragon on May 12, 2018, 04:45:11 am
It seems to me like you would run into problems trying to balance stress because some players want stress to be a difficult to handle problem with big consequences and other players would rather want it to be more easily handled and their dwarves not constantly falling into depression.
Are you going to try to find some kind of middle ground that could maybe satisfy everyone or would you consider implementing something like a slider that controls how prone people in the world are to stressing out?
Post by: thompson on May 12, 2018, 11:58:00 pm
Or did you have something else in mind for this feature?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 13, 2018, 12:25:43 am
Once the ability to administer other sites is introduced, do you intend to rebalance game elements (such as agriculture) to encourage site specialisation? And if so, what sort of time scale would we be looking at to see those changes? Requiring food imports would make sieges far more dangerous as starvation would actually be a possibility.I doubt an extensive agricultural reform is due until the Economy update at least. And site specialization (or something like it) is presumably part of the Starting Scenarios update. Neither of these are part of the list of potential updates for the next few months. So, "several years from now" is probably the best answer you can get for "time scale". You can mod slower crops I think if all you need is a risk of starvation to your game.
Or did you have something else in mind for this feature?
Post by: Magistrum on May 13, 2018, 06:06:36 am
Any hope for methods of exploring the map around us?
Send an expedition to the east and discover a kobold cave we never heard about?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 13, 2018, 05:50:18 pm
Post by: Putnam on May 13, 2018, 06:08:12 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 13, 2018, 10:02:46 pm
Making dwarves in general highly unsusceptible to stress will make them stress less, yeah.That's not what I meant.
Devblog:
Quote
Every so often a dwarf can "remember/relive/dwell upon" the memory, if their personality leans toward the given emotion (positive or negative), and receive an additional stress change. Once a year passes, a short-term memoryThat theoretically should mean that personalities leaning towards violence and killing stuff, should get positive reactions from dead bodies.
But I'm pretty sure the personality system isn't that flexible. I was just wondering how flexible it could be. And how much personality could actually shift stress impact (besides 'not prone to stress').
As an example, one of my citizens "believes taking time off to relax is evil" (or something very similar, not in front of my computer right now). How much less impact is socializing giving him than a regular dorf who loves merrymaking?
Post by: Beag on May 14, 2018, 07:06:26 pm
2. What types of mages do you think will be available to play as in the first pass of the myth and magic update and which do you think will have to wait till the second pass? Also I'd like to hear your reasoning for this answer.
3. In the myth and magic update will new types structures be generated for housing magical artifacts that aren't directly tied to an existing civilization? For example a temple created by gods to house a magic staff.
4. In terms of the magic items that don't seem to be artificially made such as the example of the cosmic egg pieces how do you plan to handle their placement assuming there's no artificial structure made to house them? Can an adventurer just be walking through the woods and find a powerful magic item just lying on the ground?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 15, 2018, 02:53:00 am
1. Of the pre myth and magic update feature candidates remaining which ones if any of them do you think will enhance the first pass of the myth and magic update? For example one recently added feature that might enhance the first pass is being able to see what our adventurers are thinking which may be affected by magic.3. That sounds a lot like the current vaults.
2. What types of mages do you think will be available to play as in the first pass of the myth and magic update and which do you think will have to wait till the second pass? Also I'd like to hear your reasoning for this answer.
3. In the myth and magic update will new types structures be generated for housing magical artifacts that aren't directly tied to an existing civilization? For example a temple created by gods to house a magic staff.
4. In terms of the magic items that don't seem to be artificially made such as the example of the cosmic egg pieces how do you plan to handle their placement assuming there's no artificial structure made to house them? Can an adventurer just be walking through the woods and find a powerful magic item just lying on the ground?
4. As far as I understand, a cosmic egg shell is quite large, so it would be a feature dominating an area (I don't know if the area would be on the 16*16 in game tiles, mid level tile (48*48 in game tiles), or world tile scale). Within the area it dominates I would expect it to either replace normal features completely (such as a shell replacing the ground, for instance), or add effects (such as special flora/fauna available, as well as shell pieces [either loose items or something that can be mined]. A combination wouldn't be out of the question either, such as a central feature (along the lines of candy spires or magma pipes, but not necessarily as deep) with possible additional features around it [shell blossoms, cosmic fowl, cosmic gnats, shell crystals]. I wouldn't be surprised if those kind of features would have different scales depending on the feature.
I wouldn't expect any of these features to be on the single item scale, and I wouldn't expect myth resultant artifacts to start out just dropped in the middle of nowhere (obviously they can end up there as a result of actions after the generation of them, but it wouldn't make much sense for the powers to just toss it out blindly [except possibly for an RNG power...]).
Post by: fishboyliam on May 16, 2018, 01:13:38 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 16, 2018, 03:37:52 pm
At its current state, how feasible would it be to convert biome generation into a raw-based system? Have you considered this in the past?Biomes are currently generated based on world tile parameters approximating how biomes appear in the real world. The set of biomes covers all combinations of these parameters such that you get exactly one one biome given the parameters (and the PSV set is not complete, by the way). If biomes where treated as disconnected pieces you could play with individually you could easily get parameter combinations that would not result in any biome at all, as well as ones that would match several biomes (in which case I guess you could RNG it). I assume you could have a "background" biome you'd end up with if nothing fits to cover the holes.
When wacky worlds make it in the current biome set would have to be changed into biome sets that make (some kind of) sense in each setting.
It can also be noted that the logic for how biomes are determined is rather complex (again, to approximate real biomes), which cannot be reduced to simple raw descriptions (it can obviously be translated into complex raw descriptions...).
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 16, 2018, 10:33:26 pm
So whats next for adventure mode? (I think im one of the few people on here who plays adventure mode way more then fort mode because i absolutely love it and think even now its one of the best RPG's ever made because of all the options and ways we can interact with the world, (such as the fact that we can join a bandit group, which i do way too often)) anyway, onto my question,
1.Any plans for players to be able to say, open up their own shops?
2. Do you plan to expand adventurer banditry? (Right now when you join a bandit gang the bandit leader basically acts just like a lord and gives you the same tasks as a lord which don't always make much sense for a bandit)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 16, 2018, 10:40:08 pm
Its been awhile since i was active here!Current 'small improvements' phase has been extended to make up for the long years we'll spend waiting for Mythgen.
So whats next for adventure mode? (I think im one of the few people on here who plays adventure mode way more then fort mode because i absolutely love it and think even now its one of the best RPG's ever made because of all the options and ways we can interact with the world, (such as the fact that we can join a bandit group, which i do way too often)) anyway, onto my question,
1.any plans for players to be able to say, open up their own shops?
2. Do you plan to expand adventurer banditry? (Right now when you join a bandit gang the bandit leader basically acts just like a lord and gives you the same tasks as a lord)
Next 4-5 months for Adventurer (not everything, it's just a list of 'possibilities'):
Adventure overview improvements (partially done)
Prioritize important information
Show personal relationships, latest people met, global
reputations
Show site relations and entity positions, map holdings
Improved character creation
Mounts and pets
Adventurer party support
Adventurer military improvements
Gaining civ-level entity positions (e.g. baron) by reputation or intrigue
Basic command of large armies on travel-scale map
Giving local combat orders to companions (see Your Followers below)
Tactical party controls
Medical improvements
Better quest handling
Better reputation and proximity checks
Can ask about specific opportunities
Changing how reputation titles work
Ability to ask after artifacts
Villainous plots
Work existing mechanics into conspiracy chains
Bandit groups raid and pillage the hill dwarves and extort from the fortress
Steal/demand artifacts
Thieves stealing items
Assassination of position-holding dwarves and meddling adventurers
Prisoner interrogations (both modes)
Receiving tips and rumors (both modes)
Sending out dwarven agents/investigators
Improve fort/adv rumor displays to highlight known plot elements
Hideouts and strongholds
Better alerts and identity checks
Includes bandit forts, return of castles, better necromancer towers
"Villainous plots" onwards seems to be a mix of fortress and adventurer stuff. Compete list here (including everything further down on 'improved sieges' except moving fortress part related stuff like traps and siege engines).
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 17, 2018, 03:56:43 am
Its been awhile since i was active here!1. I wouldn't expect that to happen until there's an economy for the shops to act in, i.e. in/post the future economy arc.
[color=limegreen
:
1.Any plans for players to be able to say, open up their own shops?
:
[/color]
Post by: pikachu17 on May 18, 2018, 03:53:18 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 18, 2018, 04:39:30 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 18, 2018, 04:56:12 pm
I think that's something for the gameplay questions forum, not here. It's called FUTURE of the Fortress, not "parts of the fortress present that I have questions about".It has been answered in this thread before though. Don't recall the answer. Search for long enough and you'll find it.
Post by: thvaz on May 18, 2018, 05:58:52 pm
If anything questions here should be more like that and less about the distant future and hypothetical scenarios lile most of the questions here nowadays. Though I guess the lackluster devlogs nowadays is more to blame.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 18, 2018, 06:25:02 pm
Quote
What's the story on getting non-dwarves in migrant waves or animal-people visitors? Seems like animal-people don't show up in player fortresses nearly as much as they do in generated fortresses.
Toady's reply:
Since we didn't know how non-dwarf citizens would turn out (in terms of clothing production etc.), they are disallowed as general migrants. I'm still not sure where we're at there.
I'd be interested in hearing if the thinking has changed since then.
Quote
Though I guess the lackluster devlogs nowadays is more to blame.
Devblog continues to log (almost every single week for years and years) what's happening. That's mostly bug-fixing right now. Do you think Toady's writing skills have decreased, or are you just bored with current development? The updates on memory, development notes for the next few months, mythgen lecturers have been fantastic.
Post by: Lunardog15 on May 18, 2018, 07:17:03 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 18, 2018, 07:25:09 pm
would the toad ever make a pun gen for dfLimegreen if that's a serious question.
Post by: Random_Dragon on May 18, 2018, 09:46:39 pm
would the toad ever make a pun gen for dfLimegreen if that's a serious question.
You could say it's a question that'll make Toady green around the gills.
Post by: Magistrum on May 18, 2018, 10:02:05 pm
Do you like the idea of actually generating the music that dwarves make and playing it during gameplay? Do you think using tools like Magenta (https://magenta.tensorflow.org/demos) make it feasible?
Right now however:
Will visitors and diplomats be able to start trouble? Will we be able to punish visitors and maybe demand reparations from a diplomats civilization?
Post by: thvaz on May 18, 2018, 10:45:10 pm
Devblog continues to log (almost every single week for years and years) what's happening. That's mostly bug-fixing right now. Do you think Toady's writing skills have decreased, or are you just bored with current development? The updates on memory, development notes for the next few months, mythgen lecturers have been fantastic.
You follow DF since when? Toady used to make much more extensive and frequent updates at the devlog.(a long time ago almost daily)
I am very interested in the current development as I remember the day he announced he was going to work on the army arc back in 2007. Being able to send armies to siege enemies is the single feature I am most eager to have since back then. However, most of the questions asked here are about features he isn't even started to work on, that may be years away yet (or may never come), instead of questions about what he is working right now. Even in the recent past people would mostly question him about things he said in the devlogs.
Last month we had 2 devlogs about development (the others were about reply to FoTF, release or bug-fixing). This month we had one, and we are already going to the end of the month. He didn't even update the Development page after the last version.
Post by: Bumber on May 18, 2018, 11:20:13 pm
He tends to post a devlog entry once a week. The content of that entry is mostly what he's currently working on, and right now that's bug fixes.
Seems future stuff is mainly discussed here or in DF talks, and it's been four years since the last talk.
Post by: thvaz on May 18, 2018, 11:32:20 pm
I doubt he has as much time for that as he used to. As the fan base grows, so do his responsibilities. Bug tracker, forums, etc.
He tends to post a devlog entry once a week. The content of that entry is mostly what he's currently working on, and right now that's bug fixes.
Seems future stuff is mainly discussed here or in DF talks, and it's been four years since the last talk.
He surely have his reasons, though the sparses devlogs may be one of the causes of decreasing activity in the forums.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 19, 2018, 04:13:17 am
When I started with DF, early in 0.40.X, entries were made about every 3-7 days. The rate has decreased and then rebound somewhat, but it's rarely less than a week in between them. However, the end/beginning of the month posts are generally empty of development info, and to compound that, development reports tend to be skipped if they'd appear less than about a week before a month shift report. The updated dev "plan" page is very nice to see, though, as it gives a good indication of what's in the cards.
@pikachu17: You might want to update your post to give it proper color indications, as whatever you entered manually doesn't work. Otherwise Toady might miss it when answering questions.
Non dwarven migrants: Players of low pop fortresses would get issues with getting reproducing pairs of citizens if you add not only age difference, but also race into the mix. Apart from that, the clothing issue has been (sort of) solved since the last answer.
Post by: KittyTac on May 19, 2018, 04:24:26 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 19, 2018, 04:40:03 am
Post by: DG on May 19, 2018, 06:29:10 am
If anything questions here should be more like that and less about the distant future and hypothetical scenarios lile most of the questions here nowadays.
DF Talk was a good outlet for it but it's fallen by the wayside.
What happened to DF talk? Was it more that it's difficult to organize with you and rainseeker/captain being busy or is it more that you ran out of questions and topics to discuss?
Post by: Beag on May 19, 2018, 04:31:52 pm
2. Will it be possible in some worlds for civilizations to create magic buildings for use defending or improving the well being of their sites? For example a magic savvy civilization might make a tower to put a force field around their sites to keep unwanted visitors out or a tower that improves crop yield in their farms?
3. In the first pass of the myth and magic update might some forms of magic be affected by what an adventurer is feeling? For example one magic might be more effective if an adventurer is happy and less if they are sad?
4. Might our adventurer's relationships with npcs in the first pass of the myth and magic update affect how effective some forms of magic are? For example a harming spell might be more effective against someone you really hate?
Post by: Lunardog15 on May 19, 2018, 04:35:46 pm
i'm not sure but it would be fun to try to get him to do thatwould the toad ever make a pun gen for dfLimegreen if that's a serious question.
You could say it's a question that'll make Toady green around the gills.
(tho i doubt it will happen)
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 19, 2018, 06:59:04 pm
Post by: Bumber on May 19, 2018, 07:08:06 pm
1. In terms of magical crafting in the first pass of the myth and magic update will there be forms of magic crafting that require stationary work areas such as an alchemy lab or run scribing table? If so would an adventurer in those worlds be able to participate in magic crafting if they found one of those work areas or would such crafting be fortress mode only?These are more like suggestions.
2. Will it be possible in some worlds for civilizations to create magic buildings for use defending or improving the well being of their sites? For example a magic savvy civilization might make a tower to put a force field around their sites to keep unwanted visitors out or a tower that improves crop yield in their farms?
3. In the first pass of the myth and magic update might some forms of magic be affected by what an adventurer is feeling? For example one magic might be more effective if an adventurer is happy and less if they are sad?
4. Might our adventurer's relationships with npcs in the first pass of the myth and magic update affect how effective some forms of magic are? For example a harming spell might be more effective against someone you really hate?
Post by: Beag on May 19, 2018, 08:55:05 pm
Well hopefully I have better luck next time.1. In terms of magical crafting in the first pass of the myth and magic update will there be forms of magic crafting that require stationary work areas such as an alchemy lab or run scribing table? If so would an adventurer in those worlds be able to participate in magic crafting if they found one of those work areas or would such crafting be fortress mode only?These are more like suggestions.
2. Will it be possible in some worlds for civilizations to create magic buildings for use defending or improving the well being of their sites? For example a magic savvy civilization might make a tower to put a force field around their sites to keep unwanted visitors out or a tower that improves crop yield in their farms?
3. In the first pass of the myth and magic update might some forms of magic be affected by what an adventurer is feeling? For example one magic might be more effective if an adventurer is happy and less if they are sad?
4. Might our adventurer's relationships with npcs in the first pass of the myth and magic update affect how effective some forms of magic are? For example a harming spell might be more effective against someone you really hate?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 20, 2018, 04:29:53 am
It's probably too early to say what will and what will not appear in the *first* Myth & Magic arc.Well hopefully I have better luck next time.1. In terms of magical crafting in the first pass of the myth and magic update will there be forms of magic crafting that require stationary work areas such as an alchemy lab or run scribing table? If so would an adventurer in those worlds be able to participate in magic crafting if they found one of those work areas or would such crafting be fortress mode only?These are more like suggestions.
2. Will it be possible in some worlds for civilizations to create magic buildings for use defending or improving the well being of their sites? For example a magic savvy civilization might make a tower to put a force field around their sites to keep unwanted visitors out or a tower that improves crop yield in their farms?
3. In the first pass of the myth and magic update might some forms of magic be affected by what an adventurer is feeling? For example one magic might be more effective if an adventurer is happy and less if they are sad?
4. Might our adventurer's relationships with npcs in the first pass of the myth and magic update affect how effective some forms of magic are? For example a harming spell might be more effective against someone you really hate?
2. Permanent/long term area effect magic is likely to appear for fortress mode at some time. Whether those will take the form of constructions, rituals, or something else will probably be world dependent.
3/4. Sounds rather unlikely. The first arc will likely chisel out the broad features, not paint the freckles in the face.
Post by: Hapchazzard on May 20, 2018, 09:42:23 am
2. Currently, worldgen adventurers seem to be able to recover artifacts from ruined sites. Would it be possible to expand their behavior to also include the generalized ability to behave as looters and steal regular items? Right now, it seems that a site can be abandoned for a thousand years and it'll still have all of it's fine steel equipment neatly piled up in the barracks, untouched.
3. Is some kind of ruin overhaul in the plans for the next few releases in general, in the sense of actually simulating decay through the ages? Right now, they just feel like ordinary sites, just without any inhabitants.
4. Will world-ending artifacts be a thing? How would they be balanced?
Post by: KittyTac on May 20, 2018, 09:47:14 am
Not in all worlds, and balance depends on the sliders, so a high-weirdness world will have very imbalanced spells and artifacts.
4. Will world-ending artifacts be a thing? How would they be balanced?
Post by: Egan_BW on May 20, 2018, 12:38:56 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 21, 2018, 12:52:08 pm
2. Will the player be able to become the master and hire there own apprentices.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 21, 2018, 04:04:47 pm
1.In the development plans it says there are plans for the adventurer to play as a wizards apprentice with a whole section for what the player should be able to do in that situation, isn’t that more like an adventurer role? Along the same lines as the thief role.Adventurer "roles" won't be specified in game explicitly according to the notes, they're just arcs of features to allow you more things to do in Adventurer. Like being a wizards apprentice.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 21, 2018, 05:35:40 pm
Sorry if I confused you.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 21, 2018, 05:44:10 pm
I know, I play tons of adventure mode and have listened to all the df talks miltiple times. I was just thinking it was in an odd place, feels like it needs its own section.Ah, probably because it was added later than the other roles when the mythgen notes went up. So it's something specifically for one of the mythgen updates to look at as opposed to the unordered lists at the bottom. Top of the list is newer than the bottom confusingly.
Sorry if I confused you.
Post by: kontako on May 23, 2018, 01:58:34 am
Do you intend to allow the forces / tools / aspects of deities to be personified?
Like the loom used to shape fate being both a loom and an individual.
If so, how do you think you'll make it reliably interesting?
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 23, 2018, 11:13:16 am
Post by: SlapFactory on May 23, 2018, 05:10:37 pm
Are there plans or thoughts on "Bringing back lost deities/titans" as something achievable in fortress mode? I've done a little digging and cant find if there are plans (or not) for major 'ritual'-type goals for fortress mode.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 23, 2018, 05:42:38 pm
I was going over the development page and got extremely excited when I read "Bringing back lost deities/titans". I then realized that this specific item is under the section for Creation Myths. Still a really neat thing I look forward to but it got me wondering;Yes, that's an in-game goal. Creation myths aren't just extra fluff for Legends Mode, they'll effect the actual world through magic systems, religions, magical biomes, artifacts and the ability for the player to actually effect Change in the world (like bringing back lost deities through ritual for example). Rituals are likely to be possible in both modes (but not in all worlds).
Are there plans or thoughts on "Bringing back lost deities/titans" as something achievable in fortress mode? I've done a little digging and cant find if there are plans (or not) for major 'ritual'-type goals for fortress mode.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 23, 2018, 09:29:53 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 23, 2018, 09:55:29 pm
Would such rituals be possible for NPCs in addition to players? The dev log seemed kinda vague on that. IMO magic-based cults attempting to resurrect lost titans of the ancient world would be really cool villains for adventurers to face on occasion.That'd presumably be an extension to the upcoming Villainous Plots development. DF is about simulating a world which you happen to be in, there's almost nothing that is meant just for a single player run fortress to experience (in the long-term).
If it happened in a pulpy fantasy novel somewhere, DF aims to recreate it (eventually).
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 23, 2018, 10:30:37 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 24, 2018, 11:43:35 am
I was going over the development page and got extremely excited when I read "Bringing back lost deities/titans". I then realized that this specific item is under the section for Creation Myths. Still a really neat thing I look forward to but it got me wondering;
Are there plans or thoughts on "Bringing back lost deities/titans" as something achievable in fortress mode? I've done a little digging and cant find if there are plans (or not) for major 'ritual'-type goals for fortress mode.
Yes, the myth and magic system isn't just for legends mode, the idea is that the myths actually effect gameplay and play a huge part in gameplay, so the player can bring back the lost titan in-game, they are not fluff they are meant to actively effect the game and allow the player (and presumably NPC's aswell (like how NPCs can currently go on quests to retrieve artifacts and even compete with player adventurers while on these quests just like adventurers can, while you are playing)) to instigate change.
That brings me to a question actually
Cults currently exist in the form of vampire cults, is it planned for there to be "cults" formed around titans and such that will use the myth system and actually actively try to bring back their masters, there was a threetoe story about this
http://bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_wedding.html
"Wedding of Doom"
Is this something we can be pretty sure we will be seeing in the magic update
Will vampire cults try to bring back their masters?
Or will these things be kept at an individual rather then collective level. (eg the cult wont work together towards this common goal but instead individuals will try to do it on their own)
One more question (yes i know ive been on a bit of a question spree :P )
After seeing a weird screenshot on the adventure mode subforum I have a observation: Bogeymen no longer make any sense now that individual AI adventurers are wandering around taking on quests for artifacts and killing things and not being attacked by bogeymen (it also means if say you and an AI both had a quest for an artifact that was hidden in an old swamp the AI has a better chance (unfair advantage) at finding it since they dont need to stop in a town). Any plans to rework that mechanic for it to make more sense and so that human players are no longer the only adventurers actually effected by this. (also for those who dont know, yes AI adventurers now take on artifact quests just like players while you are playing)
Post by: thvaz on May 26, 2018, 06:29:13 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 26, 2018, 07:42:08 am
As for the next version we will be able to send dwarves to settle in occupied sites, how far away are we from dwarves leaving the fortress on their own, for discontentment, fear, etc?Emigration is likely to be a completely new mechanism without any ties to what's currently implemented when it eventually gets implemented (as I assume it will, at some time). After all, if they're leaving because of your ruthless rule, they're not going to want to move to a hillock under your thumb. Also, if it was implemented, a lot of overseers would be rather unhappy when the weapon smith they FINALLY managed to train to mastery decides to move elsewhere, in particular if there's no (sort of dependable) immigration process that can provide replacements (such as highly skilled visitor seeking citizenship), and ideally means to request such visitors.
Starting scenarios is the closest place I see where that kind of mechanism might be implemented.
Post by: Eric Blank on May 26, 2018, 06:25:00 pm
Do we get a liaison or messenger role to communicate with them?
What prerequisites will they have? Like is a land holder position always necessary, or were you introducing a new tag to control their formation?
If your civ builds cities or forest retreats, will hamlets and such form around your fort instead? What if my civ lives in caves?
Post by: Egan_BW on May 26, 2018, 09:31:27 pm
Post by: Bumber on May 26, 2018, 11:52:15 pm
If hill dwarf sites are in for next release, will you consider rebalancing farming so that you'll need to rely on those sites to feed your fortress also for next release?I kind of think it's going to wait until soil quality is tracked. Rebalancing right now could be difficult, potentially making the start of the game very hard.
So maybe during Map rewrite? Economy arc?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 27, 2018, 03:57:19 am
I would expect DF to continue to be dwarf centric until the Myth&Magic support for other civs. If so, a possible outcome is that you'd end up with hillocks regardless, although there are other possible outcomes.
:
If your civ builds cities or forest retreats, will hamlets and such form around your fort instead? What if my civ lives in caves?
It should also be noted that required reliance on hillocks would cut out the viability of sealed fortresses and would make little sense in locations where hillocks would have significant trouble (such as a reanimating glacier). I agree with Bumber that any non trivial agriculture overhaul would probably wait until agriculture is overhauled (soil quality, nutrients, growth seasons and durations, etc.).If hill dwarf sites are in for next release, will you consider rebalancing farming so that you'll need to rely on those sites to feed your fortress also for next release?I kind of think it's going to wait until soil quality is tracked. Rebalancing right now could be difficult, potentially making the start of the game very hard.
So maybe during Map rewrite? Economy arc?
When it comes to a difficult start, it might be countered with a larger food allotment on embark, and/or the first caravan bringing free supplies (assuming you get a first caravan...).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 27, 2018, 04:23:55 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 27, 2018, 05:38:31 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 27, 2018, 07:01:05 am
Post by: DG on May 27, 2018, 08:14:31 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 27, 2018, 12:06:08 pm
I would expect DF to continue to be dwarf centric until the Myth&Magic support for other civs. If so, a possible outcome is that you'd end up with hillocks regardless, although there are other possible outcomes.
:
If your civ builds cities or forest retreats, will hamlets and such form around your fort instead? What if my civ lives in caves?
I personally would hardly call dwarf fortress dwarf centric as toady tends to worry about all civs not just dwarves or player civs (other civs could already do all the things he’s enabling in dwarf mode now. He will probably generalize it Eg hamlets will pop up around cities (human) pits will show up around dark fortresses etc. he tends to generalize things.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 27, 2018, 12:18:59 pm
If the primary method of founding the new government if from the handful of soldiers you send, outside the defined next release (as the devlog explains, thin for good measure) would you be able to manually "claim" empty settlements using civilian populations as a peaceful option given that the player can already send missions out to destroyed settlements to scavenge?
May or may not be worth fighting a resident dragon angrily guarding its clutch and loot who razed it in the first place, who knows? Im aware it sounds a tinge suggestiony but i guess its virtually similar to the reclaimation methods we have currently and what is already proposed so i may as well ask for the sake of picking your brains and what intention you might have going forward with the remaining hill dwarf goals. And i guess finally..
Will there be any inssurection interactions with your imposed group on the existing population?
Sort of excluding the logic that a entity transition change for fealty can be pretty much instant without piling on some dwarven propaganda books to bring them round to our way of thinking for something aspriationally less flexible. And beat up some rebellion sieges along the way.
Edit - (Oh i just re-read the devlog, there will be but in a theoretical sense, coolio, ill leave the question up in the hopes of a teeny bit more elaboration)
Quote
I personally would hardly call dwarf fortress dwarf centric as toady tends to worry about all civs not just dwarves or player civs (other civs could already do all the things he’s enabling in dwarf mode now. He will probably generalize it Eg hamlets will pop up around cities (human) pits will show up around dark fortresses etc. he tends to generalize things.
They already do remotely (roam around and ask who's the local trading partner to point out the local city they're symbiotic to in adventure mode), but the ability for the AI to switch around and swap out trading partner hamlets for better army distribution by picking out soldiers when the main city gets low after a few wars with lots of surrounding towns would be really smart on the simulator's side.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 28, 2018, 10:11:25 am
Exciting devlog, i guess some people haven't been this excited since the worldmap opened up for the scope of features, before the magic arc nontheless!insurrections happen as a consequence of world activation (they happen all over the place, what toady is saying is that your site should be treated no differently), i dont expect there to be a notification either, personally.
If the primary method of founding the new government if from the handful of soldiers you send, outside the defined next release (as the devlog explains, thin for good measure) would you be able to manually "claim" empty settlements using civilian populations as a peaceful option given that the player can already send missions out to destroyed settlements to scavenge?
May or may not be worth fighting a resident dragon angrily guarding its clutch and loot who razed it in the first place, who knows? Im aware it sounds a tinge suggestiony but i guess its virtually similar to the reclaimation methods we have currently and what is already proposed so i may as well ask for the sake of picking your brains and what intention you might have going forward with the remaining hill dwarf goals. And i guess finally..
Will there be any inssurection interactions with your imposed group on the existing population?
Sort of excluding the logic that a entity transition change for fealty can be pretty much instant without piling on some dwarven propaganda books to bring them round to our way of thinking for something aspriationally less flexible. And beat up some rebellion sieges along the way.
Edit - (Oh i just re-read the devlog, there will be but in a theoretical sense, coolio, ill leave the question up in the hopes of a teeny bit more elaboration)QuoteI personally would hardly call dwarf fortress dwarf centric as toady tends to worry about all civs not just dwarves or player civs (other civs could already do all the things he’s enabling in dwarf mode now. He will probably generalize it Eg hamlets will pop up around cities (human) pits will show up around dark fortresses etc. he tends to generalize things.
They already do remotely (roam around and ask who's the local trading partner to point out the local city they're symbiotic to in adventure mode), but the ability for the AI to switch around and swap out trading partner hamlets for better army distribution by picking out soldiers when the main city gets low after a few wars with lots of surrounding towns would be really smart on the simulator's side.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on May 28, 2018, 10:54:03 am
This could also remove that source of FPS drain...
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 28, 2018, 12:01:48 pm
insurrections happen as a consequence of world activation (they happen all over the place, what toady is saying is that your site should be treated no differently), i dont expect there to be a notification either, personally.
Well since a un-homogenized local population may have their own opinions which makes them more likely to join in with a insurrection or not with the point of perspective in adventure mode, it'll be interesting to see if anything comes out of it. Exiled cheesemaker hillock rebellions throwing giant molten gourds via catapults attacking the capital.
No notification would be a pity, suddenly disappearing off screen for little explanation would be outrageously difficult to deal with.
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 28, 2018, 06:32:07 pm
Sorry, when i say "your site" i mean any site you are occupying. Not your fort .insurrections happen as a consequence of world activation (they happen all over the place, what toady is saying is that your site should be treated no differently), i dont expect there to be a notification either, personally.
Well since a un-homogenized local population may have their own opinions which makes them more likely to join in with a insurrection or not with the point of perspective in adventure mode, it'll be interesting to see if anything comes out of it. Exiled cheesemaker hillock rebellions throwing giant molten gourds via catapults attacking the capital.
No notification would be a pity, suddenly disappearing off screen for little explanation would be outrageously difficult to deal with.
Post by: Dutchling on May 29, 2018, 05:16:05 pm
Will having hillocks around your site give advance warning of a sieges arrival?
yes: "Defensive off-site armies, ability to stall and report on incoming sieges (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)"
Post by: DG on May 31, 2018, 08:42:45 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 31, 2018, 03:43:28 pm
Ah, thanks. Hm...Nothing linking it directly to hillock populations surrounding your fort and as it's in white so it's unlikely to be imminent.That whole top section is imminent. It's all the candidates for pre-mythgen (as in, right now) additions. Some of it might not make it due to time, but Toady's given himself an extension on the current "small updates" phase to around October. Mythgen development will be long, so he wants this big chunk of the army arc in before he starts to keep us amused.
(Taking over sites is completed but is still in white, wouldn't worry about that, dev notes take a while to update).
Post by: Toady One on May 31, 2018, 08:41:29 pm
Quote from: Max^TM
Wait, you said memory doesn't do much, I'm not just imagining things when it seems to help retain more of the "previously viewed but not visible" layout especially when deep in a catacomb or sewer, am I?
Doing a code search, memory is used as a skill roll modifier for animal care, herbalism, diagnosis, appraisal, recordkeeping, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, geography, and reading. That's it. No maps or anything.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Can we expect new magical materials, like mithril or sapient pearwood, from which to make weapons? And other stuff I guess.
Will we ever be able to encrust our weapons with gems? Incorporating magical gems into sword pommels seems a pretty common trope in fantasy settings.
Yeah, it seems like procedural magical materials are almost guaranteed, as they already exist in the vaults, and adamantine will find itself put in the slurry somehow (like dwarves, certain vanilla elements might be preferred at default settings; it'll have to interact with the existing/selected raws.)
PlumpHelmetMan brought up the current general existence of encrusting; as for magic encrusting, yeah, I agree that gems/runes/etc. seem like a strong possibility. As expected, it's hard to say what'll come first.
Quote from: iceball3
What's the current rationale for travel (fast travel, caravans, and embarking) through mountains being blocked? I assumed initially it had to do with provisions, but deserts can be crossed with ease, and mountains do not frequently have difficult cliffs, or any less forageable resources than elsewhere (adventurers still get hungry and thirsty as they normally do off mountains, right?)
If the current behavior is unintended, is the direction you'd like to take in justifying the limitation (mountains generating such that it is a lot more difficult to traverse, high altitude hazards, etc) or just opening mountains to travel?
I believe it was the previous existence of cliffs, coupled with the desire to do passes and tunnels, and so on. It's likely the upcoming map rewrite coupled with the relatively new addition of climbing will see cliffs back in the mountains to some extent. I'm not sure when we'll get to altitude hazards aside from falling.
Quote from: falcc
Once temperatures are more meaningful and magic is in, will creatures otherwise unaffected by temperatures, out of sync with reality, beyond time, etc by impacted by temperatures below absolute zero? Just wondering since those temperatures are currently possible.
Ha ha, yeah, who knows? I left those odd values in for magical purposes, like unnatural heat gradients, but when you actually cross the threshold, perhaps tiered rules might apply, instead of simply making temperature change quickly. Hard to say; it's an unusual setup and will need to be make whatever sense in-system.
Quote from: Phenoix12
1. Is it possible with the magic world generation to create very strange worlds? Like worlds that have no sun and are cast into eternal darkness or worlds comprised of floating islands over a sea of lava and FUN. (or just some floating islands in general... because building a fortress that hangs under a floating island just sounds awesome)
2. Will we eventually see more complex reaction between civilizations and races. Like people generating stereotypes and hatred for certain races and groups based on interactions? Or say a race of elves living isolated for their entire history meeting a human adventure for the first time thus having no idea what a human is.
3. Will language be expanded on like music and such. Being randomly generated and having to be taught/learned? It be interesting to see if one language rises to the top of the heap to become that worlds version of 'common' Or if the myth/history generate makes a single world language that was created by a god for the people to use. Also maybe species with langagues that can't be spoken or understood by others do some some biological reasion.
1. The way the map rewrite plans are shaping up, I'd say certain oddities are quite, quite likely. Changing astronomical objects is a different sort of challenge; it's not as hard as the map rewrite, but also not as crucial. A form of it already exists in the prototype myth generator, but we'll have to see how the first pass goes. Certain bits regarding seasonal hardcoding and other issues might provide some inertia.
2. I'm not sure when we're going to get into this sort of thing and which forms it will take. Certainly reasonable to consider, and we have a bit of first contact stuff up on dev under explorer if I remember.
3. Yeah. I'm not sure *when*, but I'm looking forward to it and it's an earlier non-DF interest of mine.
Quote from: Dorsidwarf
Now that the dwarves are able to get traumatised again and not nerve-stapled by alcohol, are we likely to see an update to socialising that allows dwarves to make friends/etc while not idle, seeing as dwarves are rarely actually idle these days?
Was this still completely not working? I've had friends and lovers arise during recent testing, after I changed some of how chatting during socializing works in the not too distant past (some releases back though.)
Quote
Quote from: WhatsifsowhatsitI think even in worlds where there is a 'true' myth/religion, there will be plenty of people who have a different idea of how things work. It's not just in myth-low worlds, worlds without gods, etc., where different non-real ideas should be generated, I feel. People come up with their own ideas of how things work, even if they're not real (we can see this is true even without assuming an atheistic view of the real world just from the simple fact that there exist mutually exclusive ideas/religions). I don't think the presence of a 'real' myth or god(s) should change that.
I've seen Toady make diverse statements in this regard, so I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. If anybody knows how to make this into an actual question, please be my guest.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWithin the myth and general belief systems of each civ, will there be room for interpretation of the myth or emphasis on parts of the myth that differ on an individual or entity wide scale within the same civ? Is that perhaps something for Starting Scenarios and it's various culture/society development points?
(I know the initial world myth is one 'truth' that's interpreted by each civ, but I mean on a more granular scale within each civilization).
I disagree; if miracles in the real world were more commonplace, people would generally start to adopt compatible beliefs, the same way some basic form of germ theory is now (kinda) accepted by the world. Naturally, there's room for some outliers and other this-and-thats, and obviously people believe a lot of weird things about germs, but they also (generally) take a lot of antibiotics and (variously) understand what is going on. So "I don't think the presence of a real myth or god(s) should change that" is too far; underlying reality has a huge impact on what people believe and how they behave, especially if there are consequences for being wrong (walking into large fires is not common, say, though it happens.)
But yeah, it doesn't mean everybody has to believe the same thing, just that reality has a large say.
Practically speaking, I think even early pass myths will see emphasis and interpretation; the feeling that civilizations are different is important to us. But if there's a giant purple glowing electrical ball in the sky, I expect each civilization will have a view on it (once they have views on that sort of thing at all.) Almost universally its existence will be acknowledged, and generally its behaviors and associated phenomena will be respected. If something about it isn't understood, some will research, and some will believe odd things; it seems that'll also be an early result of wanting to have magical research in the game at all, having targets of research, so the chances of seeing stuff here are actually pretty high. Some of it will be automatic, and some of it will just be mega-low-hanging; there'll be so much in the latter category that it's hard to commit to particulars just now, though.
Quote from: squamous
1. I saw in the development plans that adventure mode might be getting ridable mounts at some point in the future. How will this affect NPCs? Will we see knights riding horses or mounted bandits and stuff like that in adventure mode? Also, if you had an amphibious mount, could you cross the ocean with it on the world map? Would that affect civilizations and let them colonize or attack other continents? It might be a good placeholder for cross-continental travel until boats are implemented.
2. Are there any plans to let the player teach secrets they learn in worldgen before the magic arc?
3. Mountain roads are currently impassible for adventure mode characters (in the world map anyways), but will NPC groups like armies that would otherwise be separated by a mountain range be able to use them to cross the mountains?
4. Regarding the addition of hillocks to a fortress's surroundings, what will happen to modded civilizations that use, say, hamlets and cities as their site type? Would a fortress belonging to that civilization spawn hamlets, or hillocks? Or would there be errors and bugs in such an event?
1. There are separate issues with each scenario you describe; it'll start player-focused most likely, but it'd be nice to get something in there with NPCs. I'd guess individual NPC stuff is more likely than any more abstract civ changes for this one in the nearer term.
2. I don't expect anything like this before magic.
3. I think they cheat right now; mountain pathing was causing trouble that I didn't have time to address. That probably won't change for a while.
4. Hillocks aren't very different from human villages, and I anticipate respecting the site type; the playable site will remain unchanged.
Quote from: falcc
When adventure pets goes in, will it including lifting animals? Will adventurers be able to be included in cattle raiding and the like by snatching stray chickens in villages? Will there be stocking fish in ponds since vermin fish are often sold as an item already?
Ha ha, when I read that I thought you meant picking them up and carrying them, so that they, like, wouldn't get their feet muddy or something. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you could steal animals, especially mounts, though of course "steal" is still somewhat undefined. As for the broader economic stuff, I wouldn't expect that until we do industrial stockpiles etc. more generally.
Quote from: saharo
Has Ars Magica ever sparked your interest? Did you read, or plan to read some material on the setting and the game mechanic?
(http://bay12games.com/imgs/ars.jpg)
Quote from: Magistrum
For the farther future:
Because if I ever get a chance to regrow my dwarves limbs I will abuse it:
Will there be conditions on how many times something can be the target of a spell? Can we try to congeal a bucket of water and get told "The substance has become magically inert."? Or try to heal our companion for the thousandth time and get "This creature has become saturated with energy."?
Also because sometimes it feels like I'm getting attacked for very little reason, Is there any plans for forcing emotional state without altering memories? The straight eared goblin suddenly feels calm. Can we otherwise make someone forget what they are doing?
Toady talks a bit about keeping players free, but still letting dwarves have an identity, Do you feel magic mechanisms and machines feel "dwarfy"? Is it something that feels appropriate, or something to tolerate like venom and poison?
For the closer future:
Dwarves are a disorganized mess in combat, while this is understandable, Are we going to see some effects of the tactician skill in the fortress before jumping on to magic? Will we be able to make dwarves hold their ground against a force?
On a similar note, Will dwarves be able to take cover from missile fire and still have LOS, firing, using something other than fortifications? Boulders? Buildings? Tables? Trees? Large dead bodies?
There are various 'corruption'/etc. options on the table. I'm not sure what it'll roll out with.
Interactions can already affect emotions (to some small effect), so I expect that trend to continue.
I think the dwarf "identity" will float a bit with the myth now; runes and magic swords in one, mechanical gadgets in another, magical alcohol in another. The baseline is to remain "dwarfy" in any sense; we might end up assigning salience scores based on sphere matches or any of a number of other possibilities, and this applies to all of the creatuers. Gadgets are certainly a common enough dwarfy feature in fantasy; even more traditional tales.
I doubt we'll see formations soon, or other serious combat changes that you mentioned; possible exceptions involve the mount stuff and whatever happens with sieges etc.
Quote
Quote from: Death DragonSo as far as I can see, the administration of sites outside of your fortress seems to be one of the current things that are being worked on.
What exactly are the current goals you have in mind for the administration feature? I mean what kind of abilities will this give access to the player? I think I heard of requesting/sending migrants and soldiers. Is this about what to expect in the next releases?Quote from: thvazAs for the next version we will be able to send dwarves to settle in occupied sites, how far away are we from dwarves leaving the fortress on their own, for discontentment, fear, etc?Quote from: Eric BlankWe're finally getting hill dwarves and interactions with them, but what sort of interactions did you have in mind? Will hillocks be able to provide laborers and soldiers, can we send laborers to them, or like tributes of food and plant/animal products? Do we run all the defence for them, or do they use their own militias when possible?
Do we get a liaison or messenger role to communicate with them?
What prerequisites will they have? Like is a land holder position always necessary, or were you introducing a new tag to control their formation?
If your civ builds cities or forest retreats, will hamlets and such form around your fort instead? What if my civ lives in caves?Quote from: CaptainArchmageNow that we'll be able to interact with and create hill dwarf sites, will we have a means to store and retrieve excessive items off-map (say, in a hill dwarf site)?Quote from: DGWill having hillocks around your site give advance warning of a sieges arrival? Will hostile armies drive people in these hillocks to the (assumed) greater safety of your fort site, like people in a town running to a citadel, or is it not that sort of relationship?
Real details'll have to wait for an update post; I'm still working on it, keeping in mind that there won't be much in the first release. It wouldn't surprise me to see people sent back and forth, but something could always come up; for instance, people sometimes move of their own accord or as part of a civ-level site creation, etc., and this could end up interacting strangly with the new player-centered mechanics. Linking the fort in with the world is going to have some road blocks.
We're slowly circling emigration especially with the hill dwarf sites coming into play. Certainly, even now, if a dwarf is about to totally flip out on a permanent basis, it would be the same (or less) of a player loss for them to just leave, so I don't think there's a balance or player investment issue here. It's just something that needs to happen.
Ha, yeah, liaisons are on the table, but it'll probably be messengers first. We're looking forward to having a fort with the civ monarch run all the liaisons, for instance, but we very well might not get to that particular feature in this release series.
Sites can fight on their own, generally, but they aren't necessarily good at it. Skilled and well-equipped fort dwarves will usually be better, and sending some out to the hills (and then training up and equipping some new ones at the fort) would be a useful strategy for keeping your lands intact. You'd be able to cycle them back in if you want to see them again or need one of their civilian skills, when I get to that.
The land holder position will very likely come from the hill dwarves/conquests, rather than the other way around, even in the next release. Some of the triggers might still exist, especially for elevated forts that can't have further lands for whatever reason, and as a way of gauging when hill dwarves should start to show up, before we have more reliable and in-depth economic/safety indicators.
Items are a bit trickier; without the economy stuff, everything is still tracked pretty clumsily, so I'm not sure what's going to happen there. Certainly the tribute system can be expanded, and food etc. to the little extent that you need to import any, or trade in some way, but I'm not starting there, as the undergirding structure is weak. We were originally planning to have fairs with all of your hill dwarves represented, but that was an economy-driven idea that assumed more of the work had been done.
Large numbers of people can't shelter in your fort for frame rate reasons, but we might have some smaller representation of what's going on eventually.
Quote from: Robsoie
<screenshot of polite discussion and ascension to throne>
It made me wonder, as it's not the first fortress in which i had a king choosen like that and as far as i remember it had happened for a few years already.
As historically a pretender reaching an understanding with his rivals in "polite discussion" in order to be choosen as a king wasn't really the only way this happened, will we see in the future many more methods a dwarven pretender can rise on a throne in your own fortress (i mean at gameplay time in opposite to worldgen) ?
We had that failed position claim mechanic which is still technically in the game, but it just didn't end up being opportune as there was too little to support it. That surrounding situation continues to slowly become better, but I'm not sure when we'll get back to that kind of struggle and diplomacy.
Quote from: Death Dragon
It seems to me like you would run into problems trying to balance stress because some players want stress to be a difficult to handle problem with big consequences and other players would rather want it to be more easily handled and their dwarves not constantly falling into depression.
Are you going to try to find some kind of middle ground that could maybe satisfy everyone or would you consider implementing something like a slider that controls how prone people in the world are to stressing out?
The raws exist as a slider currently (setting stress vulnerability, for example), and I'm not sure what the myth sliders will end up looking like; does what the "violence level" slider become enter into this? Possible. For now, I'd just like to provide some non-broken texture and occasional problem dwarves, and heavy issues for those experimental forts where people intentionally mistreat their dwarves as a kind of baseline. With the next release, we should be a bit closer, though there's a possibility that people might be too happy again if they process their emotions too fast... it's hard to run sufficient long-enough tests from my position. Seems okay so far. I certainly don't expect that everyone will be satisfied, but the base stress vulnerability will always be moddable.
Quote from: Magistrum
Any hope for methods of exploring the map around us?
Send an expedition to the east and discover a kobold cave we never heard about?
I don't think this'll happen in the near term, but there's a whole dev section for exploration, maps, etc. It's adventurer focused up there, but it'd translate over.
Post by: Toady One on May 31, 2018, 08:41:51 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Quote from: meEvery so often a dwarf can "remember/relive/dwell upon" the memory, if their personality leans toward the given emotion (positive or negative), and receive an additional stress change.In the devblog on memories, you mentioned that the thoughts dwarves dwell upon depend on the personality of the dwarves. Does that mean we can mod stress impact levels indirectly by altering personality raws? Or would that only result in subtle shifts overall?
As an example, one of my citizens "believes taking time off to relax is evil" (or something very similar, not in front of my computer right now). How much less impact is socializing giving him than a regular dorf who loves merrymaking?
<The quote> theoretically should mean that personalities leaning towards violence and killing stuff, should get positive reactions from dead bodies.
But I'm pretty sure the personality system isn't that flexible. I was just wondering how flexible it could be. And how much personality could actually shift stress impact (besides 'not prone to stress').
Yeah, there's only a certain amount of flexibility to the initial emotions (as you can see in play already, a few situations lead to a dozen emotions, but most only lead to 1-3 right now, as it's all done by hand; but personality has a large effect on initial emotion sometimes.) For the new resurfacing mechanism, it takes the type of emotion vs. some of the facets to see if it should be allowed back up. So for instance, if somebody has a high anxiety propensity, their mortified, worried, nervous etc. memories will come up more often. If you turn anxiety propensity down, you'll see those particular ones less in the long-term memory system. If you turned somebody's anxiety propensity all the way down to zero, they shouldn't have horror memories in the long term at all; however, this means they will also never process them (I'm not sure what I think of this, but it's a side effect of the current system; no struggle, no growth.)
It also uses anger propensity, hate propensity, depression propensity (both high and low), cheerfulness, love, lust, vengefulness, excitement-seeking, leisurely vs. frenetic, envy propensity, sense of gratitude, sense of humor and pride, based on which emotion is trying to resurface. A few emotions can't currently be blocked, like nostalgia, amazement, and ambivalence, as I didn't immediately find proper pairings. Values do not currently effect what resurfaces, as it is meant to be more visceral, but values can be changed by the process.
Stress vulnerability doesn't come up based on the emotion type, but only afterward during the actual stress addition. So a high anxiety person will have certain thoughts resurface a lot, and process them, but they won't be damaged by them if they aren't vulnerable to stress; this fact isn't reflected well in the thought text.
Quote from: Beag
1. Of the pre myth and magic update feature candidates remaining which ones if any of them do you think will enhance the first pass of the myth and magic update? For example one recently added feature that might enhance the first pass is being able to see what our adventurers are thinking which may be affected by magic.
2. What types of mages do you think will be available to play as in the first pass of the myth and magic update and which do you think will have to wait till the second pass? Also I'd like to hear your reasoning for this answer.
3. In the myth and magic update will new types structures be generated for housing magical artifacts that aren't directly tied to an existing civilization? For example a temple created by gods to house a magic staff.
4. In terms of the magic items that don't seem to be artificially made such as the example of the cosmic egg pieces how do you plan to handle their placement assuming there's no artificial structure made to house them? Can an adventurer just be walking through the woods and find a powerful magic item just lying on the ground?
1. Hill sites, sieges, mounts/pets, parties, off-site adv squads, better quests, villains, strongholds... so, all of it pretty much? He he he. They were chosen for a reason.
2. I haven't committed here because I don't know. It's going to involve a lot of interplay with the existing codebase, and I can't guess how that's going to play out in most cases from this distance, so it's important to maintain some flexibility and not over-promise before I start.
3. PatrikLundell mentioned vaults, and other places will certainly come in myths.
4. Yeah, that's possible; but part of the hope is that if they are that common, they'd be integrated into every nearby civilization as well, so 'powerful' would be relative. Civilizations in world gen already use their local environment, and this would (hopefully) just be an extension of that in many cases.
Quote from: fishboyliam
At its current state, how feasible would it be to convert biome generation into a raw-based system? Have you considered this in the past?
PatrikLundell addressed all the basics -- this would require some scripting or special tags and would be a bit difficult, for the natural biomes, as it isn't just based on rainfall, drainage, temperature etc., but also a few other factors. On the other hand, supernatural regions and so forth are going to be drifting both proc and raw-ward as we get into the magical stuff.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Do you plan to expand adventurer banditry? (Right now when you join a bandit gang the bandit leader basically acts just like a lord and gives you the same tasks as a lord which don't always make much sense for a bandit)
I'm not sure if anything will happen here until the distant crime/justice stuff, and whatever economy exists by that time would also help and might lead to some precursors on the thievery spectrum. Certain subsets are possible earlier, ones just based on violence or taking over a town.
Quote from: pikachu17
Can non-dwarf citizens of your civilization come to your fort as migrants? If not, why can't they?
If I recollect, this was turned off just so people wouldn't have to deal with the sizing of clothing and so forth, as we didn't know if that would work at all. I haven't really followed up on this part of it. Other than that, there's a slight immersion issue that maybe should wait for a bit of exposition? It doesn't seem as serious now as previously. But it should explain to new players why they are only getting elves and goblins if that's in fact what happens in a given world, as it would be very confusing otherwise, given the title of the game.
Quote from: Magistrum
Farther into the horizon:
Do you like the idea of actually generating the music that dwarves make and playing it during gameplay? Do you think using tools like Magenta make it feasible?
Right now however:
Will visitors and diplomats be able to start trouble? Will we be able to punish visitors and maybe demand reparations from a diplomats civilization?
I don't think I'm ever going to try to produce actual audio (or longer texts.) Other priorities feel more important. It feels more like a graphics category, although it would be cool and fun to play with, judging from bits of it in the past I've done elsewhere.
We don't have near term plans for that sort of thing. The villains stuff is the closest to complex or interesting ties in the nearer term.
Quote from: DG
What happened to DF talk? Was it more that it's difficult to organize with you and rainseeker/captain being busy or is it more that you ran out of questions and topics to discuss?
There are a lot of things at play; mainly, we got overambitious about what we wanted to do with it a while ago, since we were out of simple topics, and then I got cold feet on, for instance, trying to interview roguelike developers and so forth, as I'd certainly screw up the audio, which is fine when it is just us losing our own recorded two hours, but not other people's. Then we didn't really have other simple ideas, and others were too complex for what we actually had time and energy for, and nothing has really moved on it. All on Zach and I, not Capn/rainseeker.
Quote from: Beag
1. In terms of magical crafting in the first pass of the myth and magic update will there be forms of magic crafting that require stationary work areas such as an alchemy lab or run scribing table? If so would an adventurer in those worlds be able to participate in magic crafting if they found one of those work areas or would such crafting be fortress mode only?
2. Will it be possible in some worlds for civilizations to create magic buildings for use defending or improving the well being of their sites? For example a magic savvy civilization might make a tower to put a force field around their sites to keep unwanted visitors out or a tower that improves crop yield in their farms?
3. In the first pass of the myth and magic update might some forms of magic be affected by what an adventurer is feeling? For example one magic might be more effective if an adventurer is happy and less if they are sad?
4. Might our adventurer's relationships with npcs in the first pass of the myth and magic update affect how effective some forms of magic are? For example a harming spell might be more effective against someone you really hate?
PatrikLundell said "It's probably too early to say what will and what will not appear in the *first* Myth & Magic arc," and I'd like to emphasize that; for many questions, I'm just not going to be able to provide a timeline, though we've committed to certain bits or themes for the first pass.
1. On the one hand, adventurers can't use most workshops and the most industrialized magic forms might end up falling into this pattern. However, on the other, we'd be pretty invested in having adventurer involvement throughout here.
2+3+4. For each of these, it's all fair, and there are related current structures and in particular some interaction effects already in place that are close neighbors, but it's not clear what'll happen first.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
1. Since the magic update plans to include the possibility of entire regions changing due to magical influence, would it be possible to apply this system to simulate more gradual, natural regional changes? For example, desertification, rivers changing course, glaciers advancing and receding, etc. (this question might have been asked before, if it was, feel free to disregard it)
2. Currently, worldgen adventurers seem to be able to recover artifacts from ruined sites. Would it be possible to expand their behavior to also include the generalized ability to behave as looters and steal regular items? Right now, it seems that a site can be abandoned for a thousand years and it'll still have all of it's fine steel equipment neatly piled up in the barracks, untouched.
3. Is some kind of ruin overhaul in the plans for the next few releases in general, in the sense of actually simulating decay through the ages? Right now, they just feel like ordinary sites, just without any inhabitants.
4. Will world-ending artifacts be a thing? How would they be balanced?
1. As stated above, biomes specifically are a bit tricky, but, yeah, there would be similarities in how it might work. There isn't much of an issue with just changing the data, since it is all just sitting there, really, but some of the knock-on effects to already-generated smaller scale maps might be somewhat uncomfortable or totally broken, so there needs to be some care, and this is compounded by some of the biome interlinks (as opposed to special magical properties; though I imagine that'll have its own weird problems.)
2. There aren't really regular items to steal in a satisfactory way. We have the worldgen economic stockpiles, which are static and not added to by post worldgen production, and we have the tribute, which is more abstract. This isn't a system I want to add too many tendrils to without just doing the economy properly.
3. There is supposed to be moss and the degradation of structures, but perhaps the timers are off, especially in human-style sites (as opposed to forts), and even in forts, the types of constructions aren't the sort that degrade correctly. So it's in a sort of weird spot; there are some mechanisms, but they aren't properly applied or broad enough. I'm not sure what we'll see. "for the next few release" I doubt anything here.
4. We've talked a bit in the past about world ending disasters and how that generally is a problem if it happens off site and you have no say in it. We're not against it in theory, but there has to be some care and stage-setting involved. I imagine some people will just want to run with it, and in the silliest case, the world would end before world gen is even over. I'm cool with that, if those settings are selected; you could read the legends and be edified about folly and inevitability. However, I imagine the default setting would be more along the lines of "must be public multi-year plot by villainous serial expositor which can also be put back in the jar for a while after it's obvious what's going on, but these pre-end effects can be very gnarly" or something.
Quote from: Egan_BW
Now that memories can change a dwarf's personality facets, what kinds of changes will we most likely see? Will specific memories be much more likely to change facets tied to the kind of memory, or will it be more random? Will this happen at all during world-gen?
We'll have to see what people see more of! I don't really have any idea which are more frequent. The changes are linked to the specific type of event; it isn't purely random. There's an argument for the pure randomness, and it would be a lot faster to implement as I had to go through lists of hundreds of items one by one, but right now I like the feeling of having some clue as to why a facet might be linked to a given change. This might loosen up if things get too samey, though instead of full randomization I'd prefer to add more information about the change on other axes.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Will the player be able to become the master and hire there own apprentices.
I have no timeline for the adventurer here. Naturally, it would be cool and we've thought about it in a few contexts (not just the magic release.)
Quote from: kontako
Hi Toady, a question about the myth generator (not that you were lacking any).
Do you intend to allow the forces / tools / aspects of deities to be personified?
Like the loom used to shape fate being both a loom and an individual.
If so, how do you think you'll make it reliably interesting?
These are reasonable things, but I'm not sure what's going to happen the first time through. We're going to code things with an eye toward having multiple manifestations for the same X, but like the current soul array that has been in every creature for many years, it's not clear when it'll be used at full power. But yeah, we do have a number of scenarios we definitely want to support, and deity manifestations and intelligent items of various kinds are among them.
Quote from: StagnantSoul
Is there any plans in the near future to be able to get skilled craftsmen in the visitors who can petition to stay for work?
Aside from the same-civ immigrants, who are often skilled? There isn't really a class of wandering workers at this point, and most of them are non-historical, but I imagine forms of immigration will open up more and more, especially with the new near-fort settlements.
Quote
Quote from: SlapFactoryI was going over the development page and got extremely excited when I read "Bringing back lost deities/titans". I then realized that this specific item is under the section for Creation Myths. Still a really neat thing I look forward to but it got me wondering;
Are there plans or thoughts on "Bringing back lost deities/titans" as something achievable in fortress mode? I've done a little digging and cant find if there are plans (or not) for major 'ritual'-type goals for fortress mode.Quote from: PlumpHelmetManWould such rituals be possible for NPCs in addition to players? The dev log seemed kinda vague on that. IMO magic-based cults attempting to resurrect lost titans of the ancient world would be really cool villains for adventurers to face on occasion.
Shonai_Dweller mentioned that this sort of change is an in-game goal, and that rituals would be likely in both modes. This is correct, and I wanted to elaborate a bit. As usual, not everything will straddle the mode transitions completely at first, but having post-worldgen change is one of the few first release guarantees. Here, as elsewhere, and now extended, 'modes' mean (I think) 'creation up to having a map', 'historical worldgen with maps', 'post-worldgen off-screen play' (your squads or others, in the two resolutions of fully abstract and partially-loaded site maps at the adv travel scale), 'player fortress', 'player adventurer' and 'on-screen AI'. The game has always been spotty about making those modes fully consistent, for a variety of reasons (some of them compelling in the Not Enough Time or Resources sense, but often just flukes and oversights.) The goal is to support rituals everywhere. It's also useful that your fortress can now act off-site, so you might still have a chance to perform a ritual that requires you to go far afield.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Cults currently exist in the form of vampire cults, is it planned for there to be "cults" formed around titans and such that will use the myth system and actually actively try to bring back their masters, there was a threetoe story about this
http://bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_wedding.html
"Wedding of Doom"
Is this something we can be pretty sure we will be seeing in the magic update
Will vampire cults try to bring back their masters?
Or will these things be kept at an individual rather then collective level. (eg the cult wont work together towards this common goal but instead individuals will try to do it on their own)
One more question (yes i know ive been on a bit of a question spree :P )
After seeing a weird screenshot on the adventure mode subforum I have a observation: Bogeymen no longer make any sense now that individual AI adventurers are wandering around taking on quests for artifacts and killing things and not being attacked by bogeymen (it also means if say you and an AI both had a quest for an artifact that was hidden in an old swamp the AI has a better chance (unfair advantage) at finding it since they dont need to stop in a town). Any plans to rework that mechanic for it to make more sense and so that human players are no longer the only adventurers actually effected by this. (also for those who dont know, yes AI adventurers now take on artifact quests just like players while you are playing)
Part of the point of (possibly) getting to the villains before magic is to get these gears turning a bit. Both individuals and groups should have a role to play. So yeah, hopefully we'll have some good stuff here! Not guaranteeing anything particular here on the first pass, of course.
Yeah, it hasn't been handled consistently and it has always been kind of a problem. Something will happen by the first magic release, but I'm not sure about before then.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
If the primary method of founding the new government if from the handful of soldiers you send, outside the defined next release (as the devlog explains, thin for good measure) would you be able to manually "claim" empty settlements using civilian populations as a peaceful option given that the player can already send missions out to destroyed settlements to scavenge?
May or may not be worth fighting a resident dragon angrily guarding its clutch and loot who razed it in the first place, who knows? Im aware it sounds a tinge suggestiony but i guess its virtually similar to the reclaimation methods we have currently and what is already proposed so i may as well ask for the sake of picking your brains and what intention you might have going forward with the remaining hill dwarf goals. And i guess finally..
Will there be any inssurection interactions with your imposed group on the existing population?
It doesn't currently work that way, as the site administration is a raid option. For the 'explore' case, it's not present. However, reclaim squads are definitely much closer to being a reality now, as are player-driven site foundations from scratch beyond the initial embark.
I don't have any additional information on insurrections yet.
Post by: Max™ on May 31, 2018, 11:46:52 pm
Honestly just waiting and geeking out over the latest "let's make minecarts, whoops physics" with the "lets fix memories, oh hey character arcs!" thing.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 01, 2018, 01:26:48 am
That ars geekery picture is far too cute, from one grown man to another.Don't forget the, let's make a cute dig-dug style side project, oh hey 30 year ultra-detailed fantasy world simulator project.
Honestly just waiting and geeking out over the latest "let's make minecarts, whoops physics" with the "lets fix memories, oh hey character arcs!" thing.
Post by: DG on June 01, 2018, 08:53:07 am
Post by: clinodev on June 01, 2018, 06:01:29 pm
Post by: Eschar on June 02, 2018, 06:38:25 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 02, 2018, 07:33:18 pm
Technically speaking, what are the obstacles in the way of implementing a "world-gen unpause" button?limegreen if that's a question you want answered.
Although, there is a detailed technical reply somewhere which Toady gave previously. Just seeing if I can dig it out.
That is, if by "unpause" you mean "return to fast worldgen to skip several years". Worldgen is always "unpaused", it's kind of the whole point of DF.
--edit
OK, here's the answer from this thread, but it's based on something from a video as I thought.
Here's the video (Progression Mechanics Conference, September 2017).
https://youtu.be/L67Xb4tgVv8
(It's all interesting, but restarting worldgen starts at about 1:01:00).
Here's my question about it:
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
In your talk today, you started to talk about the major difficulties that you have to overcome and concluded that skipping another 1000 years after playing for a bit (returning to worldgen) is 'pretty hard'. I certainly think you're right in that lots of people want to see this someday, but is it something you think you're going to attempt one day or by 'hard' do you mean you just can't conceive of how you might even attempt such a thing?
Nah, we might try it. The pure dumping of all the refined post w.g. data and going back to world gen isn't the hard part, it's more choosing which data to dump and doing that gracefully or in stages (I think I might have mentioned the problem of starting a 1000 year advance and then bailing out after 5 years, which would leave a shell of your former world if the data is dumped). Well, the pure dump isn't *easy*, some care must be taken, but having some stark button like "I commit to a 100 year advance" is certainly in the realm of not-impossible things.
Post by: Rockphed on June 03, 2018, 01:25:52 am
Post by: zakarum on June 03, 2018, 07:02:28 am
Post by: FrankVill on June 03, 2018, 08:49:37 am
In Fortress mode there are some dwarfs that have a poor spatial sense and in Adventure mode character creation, Spacial Sense is one of the attributes that I can change. So, there is the posibility that npcs and/or our characters could get lost in the world. Have you considered to included a firmament in worldgen to help them knowing the north cardinal or something like this? I believe it would be great for boat release!
For other hand, in a lot of cultures, myths are represented and inmortalized by agrupations of stars, the constellations. Is it posible that one only firmament has various constellation systems, one for each religion? Or same constellation with different meaning by each culture?
And a last cuestion. Maybe a ritual would needs as a main condition the alineation of stars to invoque a great devil and our adventure party must stop them, to priests and worshipers, before the fatidic night. Is this scenario part of your plans?
Post by: Valtam on June 03, 2018, 10:58:31 am
Recently I have been thinking about constellations and stars.
In Fortress mode there are some dwarfs that have a poor spatial sense and in Adventure mode character creation, Spacial Sense is one of the attributes that I can change. So, there is the posibility that npcs and/or our characters could get lost in the world. Have you considered to included a firmament in worldgen to help them knowing the north cardinal or something like this? I believe it would be great for boat release!
For other hand, in a lot of cultures, myths are represented and inmortalized by agrupations of stars, the constellations. Is it posible that one only firmament has various constellation systems, one for each religion? Or same constellation with different meaning by each culture?
And a last cuestion. Maybe a ritual would needs as a main condition the alineation of stars to invoque a great devil and our adventure party must stop them, to priests and worshipers, before the fatidic night. Is this scenario part of your plans?
Welcome to the forums, FrankVill. To be completely fair, these sound less like questions regarding the current development cycle and more like suggestions, for which we already have a subforum.
Mechanics that affect how your character is (role)played had been taken into consideration before, but given that we already have the minimap the only sensible approach I find for that lack of Spatial Sense would be to turn it into a more limited feature (or basically, make it work like it formerly did).
I believe there are DFTalks where Toady has discussed the possibility to expand the skies beyond our current sun and moon. The Mythgen might help us go there, as there could be some worlds where not even starts are being genned. I understand it could be easy to implement the cultural impact of different stars in a way that resembles the different pantheons that exist in each culture, and one thing could be developed alongside the other to add flavor and significance to each race. We'll have to see what happens when we get there, and that could entail any game mechanic that could sprout from this (such as the demonic ritual you mentioned earlier).
Post by: Untrustedlife on June 03, 2018, 12:46:48 pm
Technically speaking, what are the obstacles in the way of implementing a "world-gen unpause" button?
The world is already alive as you play, so i imagine its just speed, the reason it waits two weeks instead of a year when you create a new fort is because it would simply be hard to simulate it so fast that you wouldnt get bored waiting a year.
this wiki article is very out of date (he has moved more stuff into actual play since this was last edited, like artifact stuff,AI adventurers, etc. but here you go)
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities
Post by: Untrustedlife on June 03, 2018, 12:48:23 pm
Technically speaking, what are the obstacles in the way of implementing a "world-gen unpause" button?limegreen if that's a question you want answered.
Although, there is a detailed technical reply somewhere which Toady gave previously. Just seeing if I can dig it out.
That is, if by "unpause" you mean "return to fast worldgen to skip several years". Worldgen is always "unpaused", it's kind of the whole point of DF.
--edit
OK, here's the answer from this thread, but it's based on something from a video as I thought.
Here's the video:
https://youtu.be/L67Xb4tgVv8
(It's all interesting, but restarting worldgen starts at about 1:01:00).
Here's my question about it:QuoteQuote from: Shonai_Dweller
In your talk today, you started to talk about the major difficulties that you have to overcome and concluded that skipping another 1000 years after playing for a bit (returning to worldgen) is 'pretty hard'. I certainly think you're right in that lots of people want to see this someday, but is it something you think you're going to attempt one day or by 'hard' do you mean you just can't conceive of how you might even attempt such a thing?
Nah, we might try it. The pure dumping of all the refined post w.g. data and going back to world gen isn't the hard part, it's more choosing which data to dump and doing that gracefully or in stages (I think I might have mentioned the problem of starting a 1000 year advance and then bailing out after 5 years, which would leave a shell of your former world if the data is dumped). Well, the pure dump isn't *easy*, some care must be taken, but having some stark button like "I commit to a 100 year advance" is certainly in the realm of not-impossible things.
Did you ask that question before or after we got world activation?
Because with world activation we have a living world, but we still cant, say, skip a year in one sitting (unless you just play fortmode for a few years, that would work, though its like it "mollasses" world activation)
Post by: FrankVill on June 03, 2018, 01:54:36 pm
Recently I have been thinking about constellations and stars.
In Fortress mode there are some dwarfs that have a poor spatial sense and in Adventure mode character creation, Spacial Sense is one of the attributes that I can change. So, there is the posibility that npcs and/or our characters could get lost in the world. Have you considered to included a firmament in worldgen to help them knowing the north cardinal or something like this? I believe it would be great for boat release!
For other hand, in a lot of cultures, myths are represented and inmortalized by agrupations of stars, the constellations. Is it posible that one only firmament has various constellation systems, one for each religion? Or same constellation with different meaning by each culture?
And a last cuestion. Maybe a ritual would needs as a main condition the alineation of stars to invoque a great devil and our adventure party must stop them, to priests and worshipers, before the fatidic night. Is this scenario part of your plans?
Welcome to the forums, FrankVill. To be completely fair, these sound less like questions regarding the current development cycle and more like suggestions, for which we already have a subforum.
Mechanics that affect how your character is (role)played had been taken into consideration before, but given that we already have the minimap the only sensible approach I find for that lack of Spatial Sense would be to turn it into a more limited feature (or basically, make it work like it formerly did).
I believe there are DFTalks where Toady has discussed the possibility to expand the skies beyond our current sun and moon. The Mythgen might help us go there, as there could be some worlds where not even starts are being genned. I understand it could be easy to implement the cultural impact of different stars in a way that resembles the different pantheons that exist in each culture, and one thing could be developed alongside the other to add flavor and significance to each race. We'll have to see what happens when we get there, and that could entail any game mechanic that could sprout from this (such as the demonic ritual you mentioned earlier).
Thanks for your answer, Valtam. You're right, I made a suggestion instead of some questions. Mainly, I needed to know if all of those ideas were in their future development plan. I understand that it is not an imprescindible thing, althought I believe it could add a beautiful poetic sense to DF.
If nobody has suggest firmament yet, I will write about this the correspondent subforum.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 03, 2018, 03:55:19 pm
You see the 2017 video I linked to and the word "today" in my question? Well...Technically speaking, what are the obstacles in the way of implementing a "world-gen unpause" button?limegreen if that's a question you want answered.
Although, there is a detailed technical reply somewhere which Toady gave previously. Just seeing if I can dig it out.
That is, if by "unpause" you mean "return to fast worldgen to skip several years". Worldgen is always "unpaused", it's kind of the whole point of DF.
--edit
OK, here's the answer from this thread, but it's based on something from a video as I thought.
Here's the video:
https://youtu.be/L67Xb4tgVv8
(It's all interesting, but restarting worldgen starts at about 1:01:00).
Here's my question about it:QuoteQuote from: Shonai_Dweller
In your talk today, you started to talk about the major difficulties that you have to overcome and concluded that skipping another 1000 years after playing for a bit (returning to worldgen) is 'pretty hard'. I certainly think you're right in that lots of people want to see this someday, but is it something you think you're going to attempt one day or by 'hard' do you mean you just can't conceive of how you might even attempt such a thing?
Nah, we might try it. The pure dumping of all the refined post w.g. data and going back to world gen isn't the hard part, it's more choosing which data to dump and doing that gracefully or in stages (I think I might have mentioned the problem of starting a 1000 year advance and then bailing out after 5 years, which would leave a shell of your former world if the data is dumped). Well, the pure dump isn't *easy*, some care must be taken, but having some stark button like "I commit to a 100 year advance" is certainly in the realm of not-impossible things.
Did you ask that question before or after we got world activation?
Watch the video, it's very informative. "Back to worldgen" is a challenge Toady wants to try one day but will be hard.
(Added the date to my reply in case someone reads it later).
Post by: saharo on June 04, 2018, 07:21:21 am
I promise I'll shut my mouth about Ars Magica after this one
,d88b.d88b,
88888888888
`Y8888888Y'
`Y888Y'
`Y'
...
:-X
Post by: squamous on June 06, 2018, 03:29:08 am
1. How exactly does the FLEEING usage hint work? From what I can tell, it affects the full spectrum of "fear" reactions, so civilized creatures that see you walk nearby while, say, brandishing a weapon (They usually say something like "A weapon? That's alarming!" to signify this) or something similarly not overtly threatening, will use any FLEEING interactions they have, even if said interaction is, say, transforming into a giant demon or something crazy like that. Obviously the vanilla game didn't have plans for this considering the octopus's ink is the only interaction with the FLEEING tag as far as I know, but is this hint meant to be so trigger-happy?
2. What are the plans for the bandit forts and improved necromancer towers, if they are implemented? Will they function essentially as tiny civilizations, demanding tribute and starting wars and such?
3. Will we be getting any other adventure mode crafting functionalities prior to the Big Wait? Like tanning leather/making clothing/milking and butchering animals, stuff like that.
4. Will you be taking another look at semi/megabeasts during the villain arc? Currently if you add the [INTELLIGENT] and [POWER] tokens along with spheres, a megabeast can theoretically assume the role of a god-king in a given civilization. However it is kind of finicky and doesn't always work (as of now they tend to die off almost immediately after assuming rulership) for example. Will this be changed as villain roles become more fleshed out? It might be interesting to face off against an evil empire ruled by a Giant king.
Post by: DoctorDorf on June 06, 2018, 07:59:57 am
E.g. a dwarf remembering a dead relative might visit the relative's tomb or memorial and reduce their stress, or a dwarf annoyed at having been without mugs for too long might take matters into their own hands and make a few himself. Perhaps in a similar way a dwarf might search out a few of their masterwork crafts to look at again or engrave their own fond memory on a wall without being told to.
Post by: Untrustedlife on June 06, 2018, 05:46:03 pm
1. How exactly does the FLEEING usage hint work? From what I can tell, it affects the full spectrum of "fear" reactions, so civilized creatures that see you walk nearby while, say, brandishing a weapon (They usually say something like "A weapon? That's alarming!" to signify this) or something similarly not overtly threatening, will use any FLEEING interactions they have, even if said interaction is, say, transforming into a giant demon or something crazy like that. Obviously the vanilla game didn't have plans for this considering the octopus's ink is the only interaction with the FLEEING tag as far as I know, but is this hint meant to be so trigger-happy?
2. What are the plans for the bandit forts and improved necromancer towers, if they are implemented? Will they function essentially as tiny civilizations, demanding tribute and starting wars and such?
3. Will we be getting any other adventure mode crafting functionalities prior to the Big Wait? Like tanning leather/making clothing/milking and butchering animals, stuff like that.
You can already butcher animals, build things however, tanning and making clothing and stuff is planned, not sure if its planned before magic, but its planned in any case.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 09, 2018, 12:56:49 am
Will new hillocks always respect the [SETTLEMENT_BIOME] of modded civs?
In contrast to regular dorfs, my Wild Dwarves would choose the swamp over the grassland in worldgen. Hoping for consistency there. :)
Post by: Knight Otu on June 09, 2018, 04:16:33 am
I assume the release is only a couple of weeks away, but just in case:I'd imagine that this is what " (so they need land access, as well as correct biome squares nearby.) " refers to.
Will new hillocks always respect the [SETTLEMENT_BIOME] of modded civs?
In contrast to regular dorfs, my Wild Dwarves would choose the swamp over the grassland in worldgen. Hoping for consistency there. :)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 09, 2018, 04:46:34 am
Ah yes, that would be it! So long as it's not hard coded to assume vanilla dorfs. I assume not.I assume the release is only a couple of weeks away, but just in case:I'd imagine that this is what " (so they need land access, as well as correct biome squares nearby.) " refers to.
Will new hillocks always respect the [SETTLEMENT_BIOME] of modded civs?
In contrast to regular dorfs, my Wild Dwarves would choose the swamp over the grassland in worldgen. Hoping for consistency there. :)
Post by: ZM5 on June 09, 2018, 10:26:45 am
Post by: Lordfiscus on June 11, 2018, 09:33:53 pm
Post by: KittyTac on June 11, 2018, 11:15:56 pm
I think I heard somewhere magic will be a skill like combat or labor skills; will there be zombie/skeleton/thrall mages?Anything related to magic will be procedurally generated. Depends on the world.
Post by: Egan_BW on June 11, 2018, 11:21:33 pm
Post by: KittyTac on June 11, 2018, 11:35:58 pm
The know that procedural generation isn't magic, right? Just because things will be procgen doesn't mean we can expect absolutely anything at all to be possible. So it's a fair question.I know, he just worded it like he thought that magic would only be castable with a skill.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 11, 2018, 11:55:10 pm
Skills is somewhere in a previous reply, yeah.
Post by: KittyTac on June 12, 2018, 12:10:53 am
Post by: Mel_Vixen on June 12, 2018, 10:08:14 am
Say if one place sends building materials as tribute you redistribute it to another hillock so they grow faster / Put up defenses or whatever.
Post by: Death Dragon on June 13, 2018, 01:16:23 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 13, 2018, 10:01:34 pm
Post by: iceball3 on June 14, 2018, 03:33:22 am
If I retire my adventurer in a hillocks linked to a player fortress (assuming I become a citizen first, of course) will the adventurer be available for...whatever it is hill dwarves are available to do when I unretire that fortress?I'm going to guess that it is unlikely, unless/until Toady implements adventurers presenting petitions to join sites, much like the petitions you receive in fort mode. That's the most closest at-hand feature that involves explicitly linking a unit to a site that I can think of right now, being developed in the nearer future if close. Does that sound accurate, Toady?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 14, 2018, 03:53:32 am
Devlog says "Civilian exchange" with hillocks is in 44.11 (probably). If an adventurer is a citizen of said hillocks, that makes him available for exchanges and later recruiting into armies and whatever other mechanics Toady's adding without need for anything new, doesn't it?If I retire my adventurer in a hillocks linked to a player fortress (assuming I become a citizen first, of course) will the adventurer be available for...whatever it is hill dwarves are available to do when I unretire that fortress?I'm going to guess that it is unlikely, unless/until Toady implements adventurers presenting petitions to join sites, much like the petitions you receive in fort mode. That's the most closest at-hand feature that involves explicitly linking a unit to a site that I can think of right now, being developed in the nearer future if close. Does that sound accurate, Toady?
You do know adventurers can join sites right now as military and entertainers, right? That's how you get to join player fortresses as a regular citizen right now.
Post by: KittyTac on June 14, 2018, 04:04:07 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 14, 2018, 04:17:09 am
Have you thought about making a FOTF FAQ?In a way I can see why there isn't one. What Toady says this month is true, but he's free to change his mind any time and if the info is buried somewhere, it doesn't matter too much. Vague dev notes are much less stressful, I expect. Still, right now I'd like there to be a Mythgen Faq. Spending the next three years watching you tell people repeatedly that each world will be different might get annoying.
Post by: Beag on June 15, 2018, 10:16:57 pm
2. Will obtaining magical mounts be a possibly option for the special companions a player could obtain as a wizard's apprentice?
3. What kinds of new specific opportunities might we be able to ask for as listed in the pre myth and magic update candidate feature list?
4. Will gaining civ-level entry positions unlock more options for things we can do in adventure mode if it is implemented before the myth and magic update and what kinds options do you think we could get if so?
Post by: Criperum on June 16, 2018, 10:19:05 am
Post by: Dwarfu on June 16, 2018, 10:58:40 am
Also, is this some kind of legal mandate (such as banishment) or is it just a "get out" kind of thing?
Post by: ZM5 on June 16, 2018, 11:18:26 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 16, 2018, 11:30:37 am
With the new myths system will we see religious wars between civs, heresy and inquisition? Religious conflicts inside our fortresses. Official fortress religion and possible attack from our capital government in case if our point of view is different to theirs.I wouldn't expect the first arc to cover this, but "merely" prepare some of the ground for it. These things are civ level interactions that seem to be more in line with e.g. starting scenarios as well as further civ level development (politics?). The first Myth & Magic arc isn't exactly waiting for contents to fill it out...
Given that we currently have civ panthea, they'll have to be replaced, but I wouldn't expect more than that in that arc.
Post by: Ggobs on June 16, 2018, 02:45:11 pm
I was curious what do you have planned for them?
thx
Post by: Inarius on June 16, 2018, 04:52:53 pm
Post by: Criperum on June 16, 2018, 05:25:41 pm
...I wouldn't expect the first arc to cover this, but "merely" prepare some of the ground for it. These things are civ level interactions that seem to be more in line with e.g. starting scenarios as well as further civ level development (politics?). The first Myth & Magic arc isn't exactly waiting for contents to fill it out...
Given that we currently have civ panthea, they'll have to be replaced, but I wouldn't expect more than that in that arc.
But what about religious conflicts between dwarves inside player fortresses?
Post by: Killermartian on June 16, 2018, 08:54:44 pm
Quote from: Devlog
Do you have any plans as to how you will accomplish this?Combat styles
- Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled
Post by: Admiral Obvious on June 16, 2018, 09:13:17 pm
Quote from: DevlogDo you have any plans as to how you will accomplish this?Combat styles
- Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled
UristMcBiteMaster has mastered biting! He created a new wrestling move! Joint Bite is now useable!
Why break the joint when you can bite hard enough to tear it off?[/list]
Post by: iceball3 on June 16, 2018, 10:06:28 pm
In particular, do you suppose the combat styles noted are a series of actions like how the current version largely supports Kisat Dur as a combat style (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.0), or will these be more particular actions?Quote from: DevlogCombat styles
- Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled
Do you have any plans as to how you will accomplish this?
Do you anticipate further development in this direction to come before or after the next pass of fatigue/pain/organ injury reworks? Just asking as making certain injuries more or less significant can have an affect on what constitute a good combat maneuver (as punching people's livers right now does not do anything presently, for example).
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 17, 2018, 02:37:10 am
Apart from personal exchanges along the lines of arguing over values I don't see room for addition of religious conflict infrastructure in the first arc. It's something that would fit better in with other internal fortress structures, such as guilds. I'd expect movements dedicated to deities to basically be introduced in the first arc, but them engaging in warfare/conflict against each other in any organized form to be introduced at all levels in a later arc....I wouldn't expect the first arc to cover this, but "merely" prepare some of the ground for it. These things are civ level interactions that seem to be more in line with e.g. starting scenarios as well as further civ level development (politics?). The first Myth & Magic arc isn't exactly waiting for contents to fill it out...
Given that we currently have civ panthea, they'll have to be replaced, but I wouldn't expect more than that in that arc.
But what about religious conflicts between dwarves inside player fortresses?
Again, the first Myth & Magic arc will focus on getting the pieces in and get them to sort of work at a basic level. Toady is expanding the house in all directions, and the focus is to get the load bearing parts done, with some basic walls and roof to keep the elements out. The wall paper, paintings, and furniture will have to wait until the weather has been kept outside.
The first Myth & Magic arc will break save compatibility, and since that is something Toady tries to avoid, I'd expect a heavy focus on save compatibility breaking changes to prepare the ground for many years of backwards compatible development.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on June 19, 2018, 02:40:19 pm
Post by: Harpadarpa. on June 19, 2018, 04:12:02 pm
The raws exist as a slider currently (setting stress vulnerability, for example), and I'm not sure what the myth sliders will end up looking like; does what the "violence level" slider become enter into this? Possible. For now, I'd just like to provide some non-broken texture and occasional problem dwarves, and heavy issues for those experimental forts where people intentionally mistreat their dwarves as a kind of baseline. With the next release, we should be a bit closer, though there's a possibility that people might be too happy again if they process their emotions too fast... it's hard to run sufficient long-enough tests from my position. Seems okay so far. I certainly don't expect that everyone will be satisfied, but the base stress vulnerability will always be moddable.Since stress is already on a slider, and people seemingly aren't going to agree on how much stress a dwarf should be able to take, are you considering opening the slider for stress threshold to the players? Obviously the thought trains have to be fixed, but after that, it would be nice to get more direct control over how stressed your dwarves can get, according to your own personal preference.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 19, 2018, 04:59:10 pm
Firstly, this is a suggestion rather than a question about the plans, so it fits better in the suggestion forum (which Toady reads, as far as I understand).The raws exist as a slider currently (setting stress vulnerability, for example), and I'm not sure what the myth sliders will end up looking like; does what the "violence level" slider become enter into this? Possible. For now, I'd just like to provide some non-broken texture and occasional problem dwarves, and heavy issues for those experimental forts where people intentionally mistreat their dwarves as a kind of baseline. With the next release, we should be a bit closer, though there's a possibility that people might be too happy again if they process their emotions too fast... it's hard to run sufficient long-enough tests from my position. Seems okay so far. I certainly don't expect that everyone will be satisfied, but the base stress vulnerability will always be moddable.Since stress is already on a slider, and people seemingly aren't going to agree on how much stress a dwarf should be able to take, are you considering opening the slider for stress threshold to the players? Obviously the thought trains have to be fixed, but after that, it would be nice to get more direct control over how stressed your dwarves can get, according to your own personal preference.
Secondly, Toady mentions that the raws exist as a slider: i.e. that you're free to adjust the raw contents to your liking, not that there's a single number you'd just adjust. Presumably, Toady's balancing aims at making what's in the raws in vanilla DF to meet the goals described. Since save game compatibility is a high priority, raw numbers are probably not going to be adjusted in the vanilla version without a very good reason, so the adjustments will be done internally.
You can make some kind of script to go through the raws to change them according to your principles (and if you think it's reasonably useful to others you can post it as a third party utility).
Question about messengers: When they are out on theyr mission and encounter hostiles (Armies, undead, titans, nighcreatures) will they report those? I imagine theyr coding will them make them walk by but on the returntrip (given that they are alive) will they tell you the news?I suspect they won't encounter hostiles initially, but just magically pass through them, as messengers have the same issue as raiding parties, namely the need for coding logic for encounters. For messengers it would at least mean getting caught (and interrogated, or just tortured for fun...), killed, or passing unnoticed. It's less unbalanced to slip through as a ghost without issues than to slip through as an untouchable ghost that then reports back on what's seen.
When fleshed out I expect all sorts of trouble for messengers, as well as reports about the troubles managed (rumors or others would have to tell about the troubles that were not managed).
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 19, 2018, 05:01:04 pm
Imagine magic on one world being entirely stress powered equalling the effort to generate the magic effect, dwarves being master wizards all round. Or a carefree happy existance where nobody dies by turning off sliders so creatures explode into balls of confetti and respawn at special shrines and domestic magic to do hauling/crafting and cleaning makes dwarves particularly happy and carefree while they hang out in taverns all day very slowly building social stats. (urgh)
Breifly inspired by:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Harpadarpa. on June 19, 2018, 08:30:35 pm
Yeah, I was kinda worried about the distinction between suggestion and future of the fortress here. Sorry about that. Thanks for the information!Firstly, this is a suggestion rather than a question about the plans, so it fits better in the suggestion forum (which Toady reads, as far as I understand).The raws exist as a slider currently (setting stress vulnerability, for example), and I'm not sure what the myth sliders will end up looking like; does what the "violence level" slider become enter into this? Possible. For now, I'd just like to provide some non-broken texture and occasional problem dwarves, and heavy issues for those experimental forts where people intentionally mistreat their dwarves as a kind of baseline. With the next release, we should be a bit closer, though there's a possibility that people might be too happy again if they process their emotions too fast... it's hard to run sufficient long-enough tests from my position. Seems okay so far. I certainly don't expect that everyone will be satisfied, but the base stress vulnerability will always be moddable.Since stress is already on a slider, and people seemingly aren't going to agree on how much stress a dwarf should be able to take, are you considering opening the slider for stress threshold to the players? Obviously the thought trains have to be fixed, but after that, it would be nice to get more direct control over how stressed your dwarves can get, according to your own personal preference.
Secondly, Toady mentions that the raws exist as a slider: i.e. that you're free to adjust the raw contents to your liking, not that there's a single number you'd just adjust. Presumably, Toady's balancing aims at making what's in the raws in vanilla DF to meet the goals described. Since save game compatibility is a high priority, raw numbers are probably not going to be adjusted in the vanilla version without a very good reason, so the adjustments will be done internally.
You can make some kind of script to go through the raws to change them according to your principles (and if you think it's reasonably useful to others you can post it as a third party utility).
Post by: Inarius on June 20, 2018, 06:58:44 am
Is this something you think about as a possible base for magic ?
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 20, 2018, 11:18:31 am
I have no problem imagining magic based on stress. Or suffering and pain.
Is this something you think about as a possible base for magic ?
Ooh. Elven sith lords when? XP
Post by: Egan_BW on June 21, 2018, 03:14:08 am
Post by: KittyTac on June 21, 2018, 04:23:12 am
Power not from focus, or knowledge, or even from innate ability. But from angst.Something that might appear in a crappy fantasy novel written by a 13-year-old. So it's probably in.
Post by: Eric Blank on June 21, 2018, 07:14:04 pm
If we keep one parent behind, can we then arrange visits to their family by sending them off temporarily so they dont get all freaked out about not seeing them for too long?
Can we also send away peoples pets and unwanted livestock?
If i embark on a site with intelligent residents like animal people in the caverns or a cave or camp occupied by something other than kobolds, can i forcibly relocate them too?
On that front, do we have any say in who is allowed to settle in our hillocks sites? Would there be repercussions, like do other civs recognize evicting their diplomats or nobles as a potential insult to them? Does this count if we evict the populations of sites we conquered/forced to submit to our rule? Separately from the act of attacking and subjugating the site, obviously.
We can ask that poetry troupe we granted residency to to get lost right?
Post by: Mort Stroodle on June 21, 2018, 08:10:22 pm
1. You've mentioned sphere-associated regions replacing good and evil regions. Can we expect ALL of the existing spheres to be represented in there (not in the same world necessarily, but all in the pool that the game chooses sphere regions from)? Some seem obvious like death-associated regions having the current evil region effects of reanimation or other nasty weather, some spheres could lead to cool things like dream-associated oceans, but some spheres don't seem to make as much sense for this system. A forest associated with "oaths" or a desert associated with "rumors" are hard to come up with magical or otherwise interesting effects for. Can we expect less interesting spheres to be omitted? Or do you guys think you're creative enough to be able to come up with interesting enough effects for all of them?
2. On a similar note, are some magical artifacts going to be similarly sphere associated? Will it be possible to have a revelry-associated magical scepter, or an agriculture-associated armor stand, for example? There's a whole bunch of spheres so it seems crazy-ambitious to try and come up with world region and artifact effects for all of them.
3. You've talked about changing the underworld into something completely different on a per-world basis, based on procedural myth stuff. Are there plans to try to preserve the "digging too deep" ending of the game between worlds in spite of this? I always kind of liked playing devil's minesweeper.
4. Since there are going to be new origin myths for different species, where does that leave the relationship between goblins and demons? Are the narratives just going to be twisted to fit the current status quo (ex: goblins were created when the gods cursed the dwarves, then a demon grew from the primordial fungus pits and enslaved the goblins) or is it going to be more dynamic, where goblins might not have had a demon master at all depending on how they came to be? If demons aren't necessarily a package deal with goblin civs anymore, might intelligent demons be able to manifest in the normal world during mythgen of certain worlds through some other means?
5. Since regions and magical systems are now going to change dynamically over time, is the myths update going to include a way to have a world re-enter world-gen after you finish a fort, in order to generate more history before playing again? Seems like a lot of effort to make things dynamic is going to waste if the average playtime on a single world doesn't last long enough to see those effects progress much. It would also be cool to see how wars and civilizations change over the long term based on the actions you made in your fort.
6. You've talked about players having to make decisions about whether they want to use an artifact, given the harmful side effects they have, like a staff of fire that pulls your fortress closer to the fire plane and causes everything to light on fire. How do you plan to communicate information about their uses and risks to the player? In some cases where the downsides aren't too horrible and it's not too hard to figure out what's going on, just making the player experiment and try using it could be fun, but the stronger the negative effects are and bigger the consequences, the less likely players will risk it at all. It's not worth playing with the Flaming Obsidian Mug of Lebesnóton if there's a chance it might fill your fortress with magma because you don't know what it does in advance.
7. How might players actually use magic in fortress mode? You've shown screenshots of the myth gen describing how dwarves could sing or speak a word or whatever to make some kind of magic happen, but right now we can't force a dwarf to sing or speak a word on command in fort mode. Will we be able to control when and where a particular dwarf uses a particular kind of magic? If some magic artifacts are clothing, will we get functionality to force a non-milita dwarf to wear a particular piece of clothing as well?
8. You've talked about religious sects forming in your fort and demanding certain things, like nobles. Is this system going to be integrated with temples or magic? I'm imaging a system where building a grand, high value cathedral for a cult will increase the success of their worshiping and rituals, improving your relations with a deity, which in turn could grant you strange moods to produce magical artifacts, blessings of good harvest/success in battle or other such benefits.
9. Similar note, right now dwarves can worship megabeasts like gods, presumably to appease them so they chill out and stop destroying everybody’s cities. This doesn’t actually do anything at the moment though. Might this relationship be expanded upon? Do you think we might actually be able to keep forgotten beasts at bay by worshiping them? Or maybe even convince them to attack your fort’s enemies? Or do you guys like the one-sided worship as it stands? It is kind of fun to think of dwarves desperately trying to appease the eight-legged bismuth porcupine that doesn’t care about what the dwarves are doing at all, and just wants to kill everything.
10. You’ve mentioned how worlds without magic will still have origin stories, they would just be fictional. Does this mean that worlds which DO have magic might also have fictional elements to their myths? Such as false gods, magical rites which do nothing, artifacts which are said to have certain magic effects but actually do nothing, etc. Would the players have an easy way to distinguish between fake magic and real magic, or would experimentation be necessary?
Post by: KittyTac on June 21, 2018, 09:12:29 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 21, 2018, 10:11:18 pm
"Back to worldgen" was covered in a video and fotf not so long ago. To summarize, it's really hard, but will be tackled. Which is to say, might happen during Mythgen development, but I imagine Toady's going to be avoiding adding even more time sinks to an already massive gap until release. We'll see though. :)
Post by: Egan_BW on June 22, 2018, 04:34:27 am
"It's not a generic bad fantasy universe. It's a generic bad fantasy universe generator." :pPower not from focus, or knowledge, or even from innate ability. But from angst.Something that might appear in a crappy fantasy novel written by a 13-year-old. So it's probably in.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 22, 2018, 05:32:14 am
There's a grey zone for residents, but it would make little sense for a monster slayer to accept to be relocated to a hillock where there'd probably not be any monsters to slay. Mercs might or might not want to be relocated to act as a resident protection force, although you can move them there as squad members.
@Mort Stroodle:
1. There's no absolute requirement for everything to be orthogonal. I'd expect some spheres to be available for region effects and some not.
2. Same logic here.
3. Digging all the way to the bottom does not mean the end. It's possible to conquer the basement as well, currently. I'd expect the challenge to be present in various forms in many worlds, but it would make little sense with a "no death" slider setting.
4. The standard setting would need to broadly preserve the standard conventions, although there may be other ways to preserve goblins as the bad guys. For other fantasy slider settings there's not much reason to preserve the current setting conventions when they're restricting the resulting worlds overly much.
5. I agree with Shonai_Dweller here. I don't expect putting the world back into the box will happen soon, though.
6. I expect research may play a part in it. It's been mentioned that some magic research might be labeled as dangerous, and I can see researching an artifact might result in either knowledge of its use or a new dangerous research topic to probe further (and possibly failure to figure it out, e.g. if your dorfs lack the abilities required, like blood lines or sphere alignments). There are probably other ways as well, including the artifact description showing what it does and what its side effects are (possibly noting they're not fully known => research).
7. I'd expect fortress magic usage to be tasked work like brewing, or serving booze, or pulling a lever. Anything using a focus "building" (such as a pentagram or whatever) ought to be able to fit into the current system. Low level combat magic would have to fit into the combat system, i.e. be performed autonomously.
8. I'd expect this to have to wait until other internal fortress organization, such as guilds, etc. (re)appears. Given that it's polishing rather than foundation work, I'd expect it to not happen in the first Myth & Magic arc.
9. I'd expect it to vary per world, but it doesn't make much sense to engage in worshiping that's completely ineffectual in a world where other worship very clearly has an effect (in particular if the alternative might actually provide some help against the monster).
10. It's been mentioned that different groups may have different variants of the same basic myths. The real world has lots of cases where "genuine" artifacts turned out to be fakes, and I'd expect there to be crooks in worlds with magic as well (possibly dependent on the ease with which customers can track down sellers). I don't see any real difference between the research required to determine the magic effects to be essentially non existent from that required to determine the actual effects.
Real world fakes range from amateurish attempts which can be seen through by anyone with minor knowledge to expertly made items that require detailed analysis. A mage in the need for a respectable amount of cash might imbue an item with a minor ability, such as e.g. change color, an obfuscation effect aimed at thwarting magic determination attempts, and then add a magic aura booster ability to it, so those who can see magic auras actually seen great power there, but being able to determine its nature.
Post by: KittyTac on June 22, 2018, 05:52:10 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 22, 2018, 06:32:07 am
In low or no-magic worlds, the magma sea would be the absolute bottom rather than the spoiler.I imagine it just wouldn't exist along with the caverns seeing as the most humans would ever get to digging would be sewers (and perhaps mines). Build tall and wide, paint the map with your shade of ascii!
Post by: KittyTac on June 22, 2018, 06:52:20 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 22, 2018, 08:27:07 am
But won't "humans breaking into the caverns while digging a sewer and having to fight back against monsters" make for a good plot?The day real world humans break into the caverns and have to fight back against the monsters, yes.
In a medium magic world playing as humans, you can very well have them break into the caverns, though. I wouldn't expect much in the way of monsters in a low magic world, although I can imagine the possible existence of caverns there.
Post by: Fatace on June 22, 2018, 05:26:15 pm
1. When the new Magic System comes out, will it be customiseable for modders to add other magic related things with raws?
2. Will the Fortress Mode AI Pathing for Swimming, Climbing, and Flying be fixed before the Magic Update?
3. If we have a Werebeast in our fort and send them out to a hillock, will they eventually worm their way back to fight or cause problems in the hillocks?
Post by: Beag on June 22, 2018, 10:46:40 pm
2. Will there be cases of non-complete mind influencing magic where the magic user suggests for a person to do something? If so, if a player adventurer is subjected to it how will the partial loss of control be handled? What mechanics will be in place to ensure they obey the non-dominating mind magic?
3. Once the myth and magic update starts being released will there be more types of weaknesses for night creatures, cursed individuals and corrupted magic users? Currently were beasts are weak to certain metal weapons. Will stuff like holy symbols, natural terrain features and certain times of day be possible types of weaknesses?
4. Will types of curses be generated at myth gen or when the curse is given? Will generated curses have their weaknesses set on generation or will the weaknesses vary from curse to curse within the same type of curse?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 23, 2018, 03:31:16 am
First time asking questions and unsure if anyone has asked (or has been answered) these but...2. Probably not. I'd expect those issues to be tackled when vanilla generated fortress playable races can get the corresponding traits and gaits. You already can get such citizens through petitions, but it's probably not a sufficiently pressing issue to take priority over all the other things vying for attention.
:
2. Will the Fortress Mode AI Pathing for Swimming, Climbing, and Flying be fixed before the Magic Update?
3. If we have a Werebeast in our fort and send them out to a hillock, will they eventually worm their way back to fight or cause problems in the hillocks?
3. Why don't you try and report back? There ought to be several days in between the release and the next FotF reply...
Post by: iceball3 on June 23, 2018, 07:03:52 am
In the event that stone layers and similar mineral formations occur that are not what you would see in real life, how do you see handling it? Will stone layers be created by probable cause (such the present known terrestrial and extraterrestrial formations, as well as preset fictional minerals reasonably expected to be caused by things that influence stone layers in a consistent way during mythgen or otherwise), or will there be a subcategory of rare procedural minerals that are generated in tandem with whatever could influence it?
An example of the first case of the second question: Slade. In particular, it forms as a mineral layer as a result (or related to) the existence of air pockets beneath the crust.
That makes me think of another question.
Do you think slade would be a subject of interest for our magic-researches to be in the post mythgen eras? Or is slade in particular intended to be completely unapproachable, resistant to any mortal effort to glean useful information from it?
Also, at the end of the day, does your vision of slade have it as being truly indestructible? Specifically, in dis-regard to reachable game states, would there be a force in the universe that can damage or otherwise handle slade? This is more of a lore question, as the question of whether dwarves can do it might lead to my favorite slade-carving maybe-glitches being fixed, hehe :P
Post by: KittyTac on June 23, 2018, 07:18:20 am
Post by: Silverwing235 on June 23, 2018, 07:26:44 am
Post by: Bumber on June 23, 2018, 03:43:03 pm
Looks more broken to me.
BTFY.
Post by: Beag on June 23, 2018, 03:45:11 pm
Post by: Bumber on June 23, 2018, 04:50:35 pm
I honestly don't know what those acronyms mean.Fixed/broke that for you.
Post by: Urist McVoyager on June 23, 2018, 08:07:29 pm
Post by: Su on June 23, 2018, 08:32:18 pm
Post by: Charizard on June 24, 2018, 05:39:14 pm
Post by: Eschar on June 24, 2018, 05:44:10 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 24, 2018, 05:51:40 pm
What's the strange textbox that comes up upon pressing Ctrl+s?Save macro (recorded with ctrl-r to start/stop recording). Type a name into the strange box.
Post by: Criperum on June 25, 2018, 03:54:33 am
Post by: DG on June 25, 2018, 08:05:05 am
Will we see some sort of epidemics in th egame any time in the future
Yep. http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Under the heading of Torment the Living: "Diseases/plagues could be included as indirect torments, as well as famine once site resources can be assailed"
Post by: Miuramir on June 25, 2018, 01:51:55 pm
Slade, adamantine, and the spoiler in general will be procgen. Replaced by generated materials. Or in some worlds, the spoiler would be totally different or would not exist at all. Hell, maybe some worlds would be based on giant floating islands floating in the void and digging too deep would simply cause your miner to fall into the void and die. That sort of thing.
This matches what I understand as well. The current backstory of DF implies that the primary structure is more or less flat layers, but with a moving sun; I sometimes think of it as sort of a region on a magical variant of an Alderson Disk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderson_disk) or some similar construct. "Slade" is reasonably analogous to "scrith", a fantastically durable "basement" material that allows building various megastructures or fantastic architecture without all the limitations of traditional matter.
But that is only one myth, and in the future we will have many! The special material one finds while digging deep might well be a mystically buoyant super-pumice, formed from the mixed spray and debris when the Orb of Order crashed into the Sea of Chaos. Life exists on the floating chunks of pumice that have accumulated enough ordered matter to hold together against the Sea, and the demons of chaos try to work their way up through naturally formed tubes, or the mines of the greedy. This is an example of a world structure that gives vaguely similar effects (demons from below, associated with an element, special material in between, surface is more mundane in small areas but weirder at larger scales, etc.); but with interestingly different game implications (more Law vs. Chaos than Good vs. Evil; the tricky lower layers are based on seawater (possibly with associated syndromes due to the chaos) rather than magma, etc.). Yet it should not require an enormous number of new systems; most of what I described above could be handled by existing code or fairly straightforward extensions of such.
A "cosmic egg" myth has already been used as the example in one of the talks IIRC, where presumably fragments of the shell would be important. Or, what if you think you're on a fairly normal world, but digging deep you hit a layer of something described as "Megachelonian Scute"? Is it turtles all the way down? And what sort of creatures might infect a world-turtle's blood... "The Megasalmonella strikes Urist in the upper body with its flagella!"
Of course, one also considers what can be done to vary even within the current structure. An unusual characteristic of the traditional DF setting is that magma is very easy to get down to; is the DF world the creation of an impatient deity or pantheon, who didn't want to wait billions of years for the world to cool and spawn life, so built a layer of slade over the molten planet to hurry it all along? Is DF actually a post-apocalyptic setting, where the gods mostly lost the material plane where the majority of their worshipers lived, and had to hastily build a redoubt of slade covered with a thin layer of rock and organics so that the free races could survive and breed more worshipers? These very different interpretations could result in almost identical mechanics, at least until scientists, clerics, and adventurers start poking things to see how they work. And it illustrates that even with a set of "real" exotic mechanics, differing myths could spring up among different cultures and races as to *why* the world is the way it is.
Post by: Death Dragon on June 25, 2018, 11:47:49 pm
What is the difference between "vassal" sites and "economically linked" sites from a gameplay point of view? Economically linked ones are the ones that peacefully align themselves to you, right? Will they have the same functions and uses as normal vassal sites or do you plan on making them more different, giving them other uses or limiting them in their uses compared to vassals?
Did you already decide what you'll work on in this coming month? Will there be more improving/fixing/tweaking of the site administration stuff for now or will you jump straight to one of the next things (villains/adventure mode parties/mounts/etc)?
Did you and your brother come closer to a conclusion about how you'll handle mounts in the game? There were some interesting game design questions in the past about the implementation of mounts and because you said they are potentially one of the next things being worked on I was wondering if you have a better idea of what you want to do with them by now. For example: How to balance player control vs the animal having its own mind and also whether mounts will come to fort mode before the big wait or adventure mode only for now? If nothing changed in regards to the design of mounts, just answer "nope".
Thanks Toadster.
Edit: Rephrased questions a bit.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 26, 2018, 03:30:52 am
Hey Toady, good work on the update.
What is the difference between vassal sites and economically linked sites? Economically linked ones are the ones that peacefully align themselves to you, right? Do they have/ will they have the same uses as normal vassal sites or will they have other, different uses?
Did you already decide what you'll work on in the immediate future? More improving/fixing/tweaking of the site administration stuff or will you jump straight to the next feature?
Did you conclude more about how you'll handle mounts in the game? How to balance player control vs the animal having its own mind and whether mounts will come to fort mode before the big wait or only to adventure mode?
Ow that's a lot for Toady to answer
I would initially say your observation on economic sites being peaceful is correct, but also that it has a essence of scalability in that the sites now have implicit worldgenerated economic growth based in how many hamlets and minor sites 'migrate' to surround them (even without a formalised economy, more about how populous & central the site is) and your own site growing in wealth mimics this.
Toady, I believe it was mentioned somewhere on the changelog that you implemented a fix to address county titles not upgrading themselves according to nobles, are you still satisfied with the active jobs quota for county title "level up" and state of the county system in general now that other civilization factors are coming into play or is this currently pending your attention later on in development? Your thoughts on the matter would be interesting
> Toady has a number of development goal candidates at this given moment (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), ever a free spirit though they may go off on a tangent as seen by this unscheduled arc particularly.
I don't believe he's really spoken about mounts in depth within terms of using them in the game (probably a wise decision until the details about implementation is finalised so they don't railroad themselves into a particular course of action), but certainly the application of mounts in the game. Old DF talks detail little adventure mode taming minigames.
Quote from: Seperate Question
Do exile ethical reprecussions now utilise the expulsion mechanic in fortress mode to make people leave? i've not had opportunity to try but i am curious to enquire whether its a fine minor detail you implemented and forgot to point out/left behind for players to find. Maybe i was reading too much into it perhaps.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 26, 2018, 05:33:04 am
Quote
Quote from: Seperate Question
Do exile ethical reprecussions now utilise the expulsion mechanic in fortress mode to make people leave? i've not had opportunity to try but i am curious to enquire whether its a fine minor detail you implemented and forgot to point out/left behind for players to find. Maybe i was reading too much into it perhaps.
Is it actually possible to get dorfs to break any of the ethics and suffer the repercussions right now?
Kill_Entity_Member never seems to result in capital punishment right now (unless accidentally killed by beating) and I'm not sure which (if any) ethic dorfs who miss a mandate deadline are breaking (or if it can be changed).
You could try making Assault punishable by Exile I guess. That might work (if indeed, it actually does work now - which I'm fairly doubtful of).
--edit
Oh, wiki says it's oath_breaking for mandate skipping. I guess that's not working then as it's set at "Punish_capital" but only seems to result in a sometimes fatal beating (and not at all if your hammerer is armed with a candy hammer).
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 26, 2018, 07:23:20 am
Is it actually possible to get dorfs to break any of the ethics and suffer the repercussions right now?
Kill_Entity_Member never seems to result in capital punishment right now (unless accidentally killed by beating) and I'm not sure which (if any) ethic dorfs who miss a mandate deadline are breaking (or if it can be changed).
You could try making Assault punishable by Exile I guess. That might work (if indeed, it actually does work now - which I'm fairly doubtful of).
--edit
Oh, wiki says it's oath_breaking for mandate skipping. I guess that's not working then as it's set at "Punish_capital" but only seems to result in a sometimes fatal beating (and not at all if your hammerer is armed with a candy hammer).
Yes they are able to partake in unlawful activity whilst not in a mental breakdown tantrum (with a yellow !) but i've yet to see a vandalization happen in the more recent versions, i had a goblin in one of my fortresses start throwing his wooden drinking cup around the bar while drunkenly brawling, goblins being poor at holding their drink and very angry anyway all started joining in and i soon regretted not building a hospital and turn off the tavern keeper tap-service.
Punish_capital is execution, which if memory serves requires a hammerer/modded equivilent (modded ones can use any weapon, axes are popular) so isn't really helpful pre-justice or if you have no justice nobles. You see it mostly in the cases of vampires, which are pretty clear cut for murdering other citizens outright while being a member of your fortress.
Punish remprimand im not sure but i think may either be a verbal warning or a beating by subordinate law enforcement guards/sheriff
Post by: Death Dragon on June 26, 2018, 07:58:14 am
Ow that's a lot for Toady to answerHuh, I thought my questions were nothing compared to the flood of myth gen/ magic related questions he gets, but alright, I rephrased my questions a bit to make them clearer because I think you kinda missed the point on them.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 26, 2018, 08:45:16 am
Quote
Punish_capital is execution, which if memory serves requires a hammerer/modded equivilentYes, so it seems that either dwarves are really reluctant executioners or punish_capital isn't working. Death by hammerer very much comes across as accidental.
Post by: pikachu17 on June 26, 2018, 09:49:58 am
Also, when you explore a cave or lair, they don't seem to find dragons and other megabeasts. Why?
Post by: Witty on June 27, 2018, 07:06:26 pm
Post by: scourge728 on June 27, 2018, 10:16:44 pm
Does it work with sites who's parent civ you are at war with?
Post by: JesterHell696 on June 27, 2018, 10:17:56 pm
I ask because in the suggestion forums it was suggested that the first pass was going to be less/un mod-able.
I know that what is intended might not make the finale cut but as someone with a desire to mod in a specific magic system (Dominions 4) I'm really curious as to what the "goal" is in term of mod-ability.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 27, 2018, 10:21:30 pm
What is the range for "nearby" sites joining you?It's not supposed to work with other civs yet (but currently does anyway, leading to some buggy behavior).
Does it work with sites who's parent civ you are at war with?
Post by: scourge728 on June 27, 2018, 11:05:21 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2018, 01:47:58 am
How mod-able do you intend the first pass of the myth gen and magic to be?There will be a fixed world editor in which you can add your own myth, your own artifacts, your own historical figures and so on to create an exact non-procedural fantasy world. I guess not right away, although he said it's a possibility.
I ask because in the suggestion forums it was suggested that the first pass was going to be less/un mod-able.
I know that what is intended might not make the finale cut but as someone with a desire to mod in a specific magic system (Dominions 4) I'm really curious as to what the "goal" is in term of mod-ability.
Prototype mythgen already has basic modding features for generating procgen worlds, but yeah, would be nice to see what's planned overall (have a feeling the same question was answered a month or two back actually - will check).
Post by: KittyTac on June 28, 2018, 01:55:25 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2018, 03:48:01 am
What prototype modding features? I don't remember it being in the interview, was the prototype made available?In the video (GDC 2016, maybe?)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2018, 04:12:52 am
Well, info is all scattered about, but here's two replies touching on mods from the past few months, one of which definitely disputes the assumption made in that thread that nothing in Mythgen will ever be moddable:How mod-able do you intend the first pass of the myth gen and magic to be?There will be a fixed world editor in which you can add your own myth, your own artifacts, your own historical figures and so on to create an exact non-procedural fantasy world. I guess not right away, although he said it's a possibility.
I ask because in the suggestion forums it was suggested that the first pass was going to be less/un mod-able.
I know that what is intended might not make the finale cut but as someone with a desire to mod in a specific magic system (Dominions 4) I'm really curious as to what the "goal" is in term of mod-ability.
Prototype mythgen already has basic modding features for generating procgen worlds, but yeah, would be nice to see what's planned overall (have a feeling the same question was answered a month or two back actually - will check).
On raws:
Quote
I'm not sure what the first magic system raws will look like, so it's a bit early to say. It's going to need a large change, but the existing interaction/syndrome framework will probably survive, even if interactions get hammered quite a bit. I'm going to focus on straightforward support for the new effects, rather than trying to overload existing tools, but I'm sure that'll come up from time to time.
On modding:
Quote
[Quote from: Random_Dragon]
Suppose you have a mod that changes entities to behave in a specific way that is required for some other aspect of the mod to function. Moreover, suppose that the future myth generator would potentially completely break this entity by forcing it to use hardcoded generated critters, entity tokens and such.
Is there going to be any way for a raw mod to restrict how mythgen is handled, so that if you want to FORCE the game to use certain civs it'll do so, regardless of mythgen settings?
The reason I ask this is because if this option does not exist, the myth arc is almost guaranteed to break pretty much every civ-focused raw mod in existence, and counting on the user to advanced-worldgen more "vanilla" worlds is not an optimal solution.
Quote
To be clear, I'm sure the myth release is going to break a ton of mods initially whether I address this particular concern or not. That is a given. Saves will also not survive.
I'm not sure what specific tag scenario you are imagining here, so it's hard to say what's going to happen. We've mentioned certain ways that a specific object (say, the dwarf) will be able to communicate restrictions up to the larger vanilla myth settings (by requesting, say, earth-related magics), without needing to change the settings themselves. There are other possibilities depending on what you mean. If somebody installs a mod, we could also provide ways for the mod to generally speak to or override params, since the installation of a mod is a buy-in at that point, though especially once we are messing around with editors and so forth, some in-DF handling of different mod folders/etc. on some kind of separated basis of the various kinds suggested over the years might need another look. With some degree of that, total conversion style mods should be able to side step myth gen entirely (this is also implicit in the notion of editors, so some form of it is definitely going in with those.) So, I wouldn't be concerned, but the first release will by bumpy (for a zillion reasons.)
Sorry if formatting is a bit off. Crushed like a sardine on a hot Tokyo commuter train right now. Fun. And tantrum inducing. Unacknowledged quotes are Toady's.
Post by: KittyTac on June 28, 2018, 04:19:09 am
Hm. Link to the video?What prototype modding features? I don't remember it being in the interview, was the prototype made available?In the video (GDC 2016, maybe?)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2018, 04:34:32 am
C'mon man. Harness that innate Google power....Hm. Link to the video?What prototype modding features? I don't remember it being in the interview, was the prototype made available?In the video (GDC 2016, maybe?)
https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI
(Assumed it was on the links page actually. Apparently not...)
Post by: JesterHell696 on June 28, 2018, 06:49:52 am
-Snip-
Thank you for the quick and insight full reply, I only hope there is enough player control to not be force to accept a magic system we don't like.
I mean I'll likely play a couple with "maxed" magic just to see the chaos but given that I already make certain changes every time I play to suit my tastes it'd suck to be stuck with random magic systems.
Post by: KittyTac on June 28, 2018, 07:47:02 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2018, 04:06:33 pm
It's a procedurally generated fantasy world generator. It's entire existence is (will be) geared to ensuring each world is unique. Yeah, you'll be able to limit the creation process a certain way with raws probably, but if you want a world that's fixed in place, you're better off making one with the editor. Well, both will be an option, so it's win-win I guess.-Snip-
Thank you for the quick and insight full reply, I only hope there is enough player control to not be force to accept a magic system we don't like.
I mean I'll likely play a couple with "maxed" magic just to see the chaos but given that I already make certain changes every time I play to suit my tastes it'd suck to be stuck with random magic systems.
Post by: JesterHell696 on June 28, 2018, 08:05:13 pm
If all else fails, remember that it will be RNG. You could reroll the world until you get something you like if the editor does not arrive on the first pass.
I already do, I only use advanced world gen, I gen "randomly" until I get a map I like then I abort edit setting and change it so it uses that worlds seed on repeat and then I re-gen until I get a world that has all races and at least one necro tower, I will often gen 10-20 world before actually keeping one.
It's a procedurally generated fantasy world generator. It's entire existence is (will be) geared to ensuring each world is unique. Yeah, you'll be able to limit the creation process a certain way with raws probably, but if you want a world that's fixed in place, you're better off making one with the editor. Well, both will be an option, so it's win-win I guess.
I only use advanced world gen which gives me as much control over the world as I need to create specific world maps/layout and editing the raws allows me control over most of the details of that world, for instance I remove 90% of animal people from the raws, add [max_age] to elves, goblins, dragons ect, remove the [no_eat] from goblins, change it so that it is goblins that eat sapient not elves ect and I do this every single time.
My worlds are not very "unique" at all and I prefer it that way, I love DF not for the random gen but because it takes a simulation based approach to the world and the players place in it, which is why I want as much of the myth/magic stuff to be in the raws as possible because I have the firm belief that if "magic" exists then its "just" another aspect of reality like thermodynamics and it would be used in industry and have fields of expertise based around it.
I don't need (though I wont say no to) a world editor so long as myths and magic are raw editable, like how you could set night creatures/curses to 0 in advanced gen but have them predefined in the raws so that you only ever get were-wolves and never were-tortoises, if magic is raw editable then I could just turn off "procedural" magic and enforce my own predefined magic, I just wish I could turn forgotten beasts off like I do titans.
All of this talking (and thinking) about magic has caused another question to arise for me.
Do you think dynamic combination of magic will be possible with magic, an example being mixing water and fire magic on the fly to create steam or fire and earth to create magma or would such combinations need to be predefined?
I'm guessing predefined but can't know for sure.
Post by: KittyTac on June 28, 2018, 08:53:46 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2018, 10:12:28 pm
Post by: Inarius on June 29, 2018, 03:28:06 am
The general answer is : they will be used in the future, it's planned, but not yet.
Post by: Jimmius on June 29, 2018, 09:03:46 am
You've talked enthusiastically about Boats many times, mainly with regards to how difficult they would be (as they're essentially fortresses that move/rotate). They'll clearly come well after Myth/Magic, but they're also not even on the Development Page, which currently contains enough material to keep you busy for years, if not decades. Does this mean Boats are so far off as to be unlikely to be seen this side of 2050, or will you re-evaluate the direction of development after finishing up the (amazing sounding) Myth and Magic arc?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 29, 2018, 09:26:15 am
To focus on the very, very distant future for a second:Boats are up before Economy right now (since last mentioned in both PC Gamer interview and 10th anniversary video).
You've talked enthusiastically about Boats many times, mainly with regards to how difficult they would be (as they're essentially fortresses that move/rotate). They'll clearly come well after Myth/Magic, but they're also not even on the Development Page, which currently contains enough material to keep you busy for years, if not decades. Does this mean Boats are so far off as to be unlikely to be seen this side of 2050, or will you re-evaluate the direction of development after finishing up the (amazing sounding) Myth and Magic arc?
Current phase (another 3 months or so)
Mythgen (18-24 months + 6 months bug fixing)
More Mythgen (12 months + 6 months bug fixing and suggestions)
Starting Scenarios (law, politics, society) (18-24 months + 6 months bug fixing & suggestions). Probably multiple releases?.
Moving fortress parts (Boats)
Economy
Boats without an economy don't make sense but boats are fun. Besides existence of boats effects economy.
Times total guesses, of course.
So...8-10 years?
Post by: Jimmius on June 29, 2018, 09:34:20 am
So...8-10 years?
I'm amazed that that's actually closer than I would've guessed! :P
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 29, 2018, 09:45:29 am
There was a video someplace recently where I think he said 5-6 years to starting on Scenarios.So...8-10 years?
I'm amazed that that's actually closer than I would've guessed! :P
Of course, things change. Strange moods, multiple decade obsession with getting Mythgen perfect, personal stuff.
Post by: Inarius on June 29, 2018, 05:05:38 pm
other question : do you plan to add non-lethal madness ? Something like, talking about strange things, OCD, hallucinations.
I'm sure i have seen someone giving details on the first but i can't find it...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 29, 2018, 05:45:35 pm
Is the last release the last release before Magic, or do you plan something else before ?Dev notes.
I'm sure i have seen someone giving details on the first but i can't find it...
Villainous plots, adventurer pets, tactical party control, armies, prisoner interrogation, assassination, parts of improved sieges (non-trap related parts).
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
(Not everything will make it, but there's still another 3 months or so of this phase let).
Post by: Urist McSadist on June 30, 2018, 02:55:58 pm
Post by: Toady One on June 30, 2018, 03:51:51 pm
Quote from: zakarum
What kind of interactions with Hillocks can we expect this time around? Can we exile a criminal to the hills (or even out of the kingdom)? Would the hills ask for squads to protect them during a siege, will them be affected by sieges in your fort? Will their citizens try to move to your fort?
We got to the release before FotF rolled around, but just to emphasize, I don't think you can currently do any of these things; a criminal can be exiled, in some sense, but it isn't that forceful. Hill dwarves might migrate to your fort, but they're just picked up by the regular migration process, and only those you didn't put there.
Quote from: FrankVill
Recently I have been thinking about constellations and stars.
In Fortress mode there are some dwarfs that have a poor spatial sense and in Adventure mode character creation, Spacial Sense is one of the attributes that I can change. So, there is the posibility that npcs and/or our characters could get lost in the world. Have you considered to included a firmament in worldgen to help them knowing the north cardinal or something like this? I believe it would be great for boat release!
For other hand, in a lot of cultures, myths are represented and inmortalized by agrupations of stars, the constellations. Is it posible that one only firmament has various constellation systems, one for each religion? Or same constellation with different meaning by each culture?
And a last cuestion. Maybe a ritual would needs as a main condition the alineation of stars to invoque a great devil and our adventure party must stop them, to priests and worshipers, before the fatidic night. Is this scenario part of your plans?
Yes, we are fans of stars. Stars have a high chance of figuring into the upcoming myth generator, because they are a very traditional object for explanation (along with day/night, etc.) This increases their chances of making it into regular play. I imagine if people can see a set of stars they might think about them, but some might pick different groups for constellations, possibly overlapping, and others might not think in "constellation" terms. This depends on what the base-line objects end up being; I've handled large amounts of 3D star data for side projects in the past and will possibly do that here if it doesn't end up being a mem/cpu sink. I also have no problem with people Little Prince'ng about the universe if that's what myth gen cooks up and the map rewrite supports it (ASCII spheres are hard, but they can be little donuts or cylinders or whatever with the basic rewrite we have in mind.)
We had astronomy being related to rituals as part of the notes; whether than ends up being lunar stuff or larger cycles etc. will depend on what we get to, like the rest of it. We'd certainly like to allow for all sorts of alignment and astrology-type reasoning in the spell systems.
Quote from: squamous
1. How exactly does the FLEEING usage hint work? From what I can tell, it affects the full spectrum of "fear" reactions, so civilized creatures that see you walk nearby while, say, brandishing a weapon (They usually say something like "A weapon? That's alarming!" to signify this) or something similarly not overtly threatening, will use any FLEEING interactions they have, even if said interaction is, say, transforming into a giant demon or something crazy like that. Obviously the vanilla game didn't have plans for this considering the octopus's ink is the only interaction with the FLEEING tag as far as I know, but is this hint meant to be so trigger-happy?
2. What are the plans for the bandit forts and improved necromancer towers, if they are implemented? Will they function essentially as tiny civilizations, demanding tribute and starting wars and such?
3. Will we be getting any other adventure mode crafting functionalities prior to the Big Wait? Like tanning leather/making clothing/milking and butchering animals, stuff like that.
4. Will you be taking another look at semi/megabeasts during the villain arc? Currently if you add the [INTELLIGENT] and [POWER] tokens along with spheres, a megabeast can theoretically assume the role of a god-king in a given civilization. However it is kind of finicky and doesn't always work (as of now they tend to die off almost immediately after assuming rulership) for example. Will this be changed as villain roles become more fleshed out? It might be interesting to face off against an evil empire ruled by a Giant king.
1. It looks like when they are alarmed (which should make them physically flee as well, so it's not incorrect; if they aren't fleeing, that's the issue, and I think that might be the case.) and when they choose to run when in an actual conflict.
2. That part of it is tied into the villain stuff, yeah. The improvements to the sites themselves are just typical site map improvements, but the villain push will include necromancer and bandit actions along those lines, tied into larger plots and villain networks.
3. I don't anticipate this. The various inertias haven't been dealt with, though we might get to some animal bits. But other jobs aren't adv-mode ready.
4. It's on the table as potential villain fodder, but we'll have to see what the first villain pass successfully includes; there could be an unforeseen issue with their tags etc.
Quote from: DoctorDorf
Now that dwarfs dwell on memories, will they at some point get the ability to act on the memories and lessen/reinforce the effect of the worse/better ones?
E.g. a dwarf remembering a dead relative might visit the relative's tomb or memorial and reduce their stress, or a dwarf annoyed at having been without mugs for too long might take matters into their own hands and make a few himself. Perhaps in a similar way a dwarf might search out a few of their masterwork crafts to look at again or engrave their own fond memory on a wall without being told to.
We are closer to that sort of thing now that the memory has a permanent spot in their life. I'm not sure when we'll be doing our next push on character arcs and related details.
Quote from: Lordfiscus
I think I heard somewhere magic will be a skill like combat or labor skills; will there be zombie/skeleton/thrall mages?
The current myth prototype supports non-skill magics, and I fully anticipate that will continue. I suppose it will be possible that zombies might have the only magic in a given (somewhat low-magic, somewhat dark) world, once you figure out how a zombie got there in the first place.
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
Now that we get hillocks to spring up around us (and emmiting tribute) will it be possible to (re)distribute stuff so they grow faster or build certain things?
We just don't have that sort of information tracked at this point. A hope for the later economy stuff, whenever we get worldgen industry turned on, which'll be after the property rewrite.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
If I retire my adventurer in a hillocks linked to a player fortress (assuming I become a citizen first, of course) will the adventurer be available for...whatever it is hill dwarves are available to do when I unretire that fortress?
If the adventurer is a citizen and is not a position holder, then it should work, yeah.
Quote from: KittyTac
Have you thought about making a FOTF FAQ?
As Shonai_Dweller (if I recall) mentioned, the dev page is what we have for this currently, and I don't particularly want to maintain a more in-depth document, as time is already thin. If the many people that answer questions here prefer though, and think there's something that'll really save everybody's time, I can consider it. The flipside is that some of the questions we get repeated versions of *are* already answered on the dev page, which is linked here in FotF, and an FAQ is only good when it is read and heeded. So I'm not sure much would change.
Quote from: Beag
1. One thing listed under the benefits of being a wizard's apprentice is magical augmentation. What sort of magical augmentations will be possible besides learning magic? Could the player merge with a magical beast or get magic runes carved on their body?
2. Will obtaining magical mounts be a possibly option for the special companions a player could obtain as a wizard's apprentice?
3. What kinds of new specific opportunities might we be able to ask for as listed in the pre myth and magic update candidate feature list?
4. Will gaining civ-level entry positions unlock more options for things we can do in adventure mode if it is implemented before the myth and magic update and what kinds options do you think we could get if so?
1. Ha ha, I'm not sure. Body merges, depending on what you mean, are one of the hard problems, so I'm not sure when we'll see that (e.g. spontaneous centaurs are impossible with the systems we have, without a rewrite.)
2. Who knows? Hopefully we'll get to the regular mounts as planned!
3. By specific opportunities, we were referring to types of reputation, so you'd be able to find treasure hunting or hero-type quests more easily than just randoming soaking up a town's rumors and hoping they have something good locally.
4. It was mostly related to armies, since we don't really have anything else to work with right now. Running a site along the lines of fort mode just requires a ton of e.g. items we aren't tracking properly in adventure mode.
Quote from: Criperum
With the new myths system will we see religious wars between civs, heresy and inquisition? Religious conflicts inside our fortresses. Official fortress religion and possible attack from our capital government in case if our point of view is different to theirs.
I think PatrikLundell is probably right that we might not see much of this on the first pass; it kind of depends on the bleed-through between the law/status/embark stuff and the magic release, since intra-fort group conflict is a core part of the embark scenario setups, etc., and religions are a natural place to start due to all the setup they'll have from the myth work.
Quote
Quote from: DwarfuWill being able to ask residents to leave the fortress include vampires and were-creatures in human form?
Also, is this some kind of legal mandate (such as banishment) or is it just a "get out" kind of thing?Quote from: FantasticDorfDo exile ethical reprecussions now utilise the expulsion mechanic in fortress mode to make people leave? i've not had opportunity to try but i am curious to enquire whether its a fine minor detail you implemented and forgot to point out/left behind for players to find. Maybe i was reading too much into it perhaps.
Yeah, you can ask anybody to leave, if they aren't a noble and their family is in order (there's at least one bug there.)
It's not quite a formal banishment (though we did think about the "exile" ethics and so forth but decided against linking anything up formally, as those ethics were all tied to criminal justice and punishment for bad acts, which this isn't necessarily), but they won't return as migrants without you asking for them, because they know what players can do with bridges when displeased. Once we have the status/law/customs framework, we'll be in a much better position to say exactly what you are doing here and why you have the power to do so (or don't have the power, as the case may be for a wider class of dwarves at that time, depending on the embark setup, though they will still fear the bridge and might act accordingly.)
Quote from: ZM5
Do you plan on fixing dwarves ability to form relationships this cycle, or do you think you'll end up replacing it with something more complex further down the line? I've noticed it still kinda seems like even with fort citizens socializing a lot, you very rarely get marriages, grudges and the like.
I recall asking this last time (maybe? it gets confusing between fotf and email and everything else), and if somebody answered I missed it; is this still an issue? I've had lovers and marriages among the starting 7 in my test forts in the last some versions, and there is more socializing now. Is there a bug report with saves associated to a newer release? I suppose I could check, but I'm working on FotF answers right now, heh.
I imagine relationships will get more complicated, as things tend to, but I don't have particular plans for them in the near-term.
Quote from: Ggobs
In the Development tab there's a line "better necromancer towers'
I was curious what do you have planned for them?
thx
Inarius said it'd be a part of a larger generic procedural system for castles/towers/forts, which is correct. Right now the zombies are all jammed up in like one room with all the apprentices and books; it won't take much of a system to improve that. As a start, it would be nice to make the locations more adventurely, somewhat like those mossy pyramids we used to have, but with a broader set of structures. Ideally, it would make more sense with their overall function, but I'm not sure I'm going to invest a lot in that before the necromancers get blown wide open with the magic stuff. But I'd like to do some improvements parallel to the castle and bandit stuff.
Quote
Quote from: Killermartian<from dev: Combat styles : Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled>
Do you have any plans as to how you will accomplish this?Quote from: iceball3In particular, do you suppose the combat styles noted are a series of actions like how the current version largely supports Kisat Dur as a combat style, or will these be more particular actions?
Do you anticipate further development in this direction to come before or after the next pass of fatigue/pain/organ injury reworks? Just asking as making certain injuries more or less significant can have an affect on what constitute a good combat maneuver (as punching people's livers right now does not do anything presently, for example).
Yeah, we had a starting seed of it in the original Armok, with the styles/stances/moves stuff, and once you are skilled enough, it would be cool to allow you to innovate on the forms you currently know. I don't have a specific interface or anything planned out at this point, and it would need to be metered a bit, but you might be able to, say, combine two stances, using bonuses from each, and add a modifier, provided you do whatever 'research' or practice is required. Then the idea was that you'd be able to teach others. This extends to the regular research system somewhat, and the musical/dance forms etc. Ideally we'd get it all the way out to job skills and so forth over time, as that becomes linked with knowledge/libraries/etc. It would be cool to have different sorts of carpentry practices and all that, though this involves a lot of research (much of which is up on suggestions, in various forms, or in the notes.)
I'm not sure about the order between combat and injuries; kind of depends on what adventure medical involves, that sort of thing. Livers, as you say, might be generally addressed before we do anything with combat styles.
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
Question about messengers: When they are out on theyr mission and encounter hostiles (Armies, undead, titans, nighcreatures) will they report those? I imagine theyr coding will them make them walk by but on the returntrip (given that they are alive) will they tell you the news?
They don't collect rumors now, and in terms of the safety of your fortress, there isn't currently a point, as the armies move as fast as they do. We were hoping to work on this a bit (it's one of the pre-magic candidates), slowing down larger groups a bit and giving your outside sites a chance to participate, enough for you to make some decisions. There's always the issue of just getting your units to the edge of the map, though, if you want to send a squad out, since that usually takes some days on the world map. We might find ourselves just having armies opposed to your fortress operate under more and more artificial conditions, which isn't a problem until it starts to cascade throughout the world.
Quote from: Inarius
I have no problem imagining magic based on stress. Or suffering and pain.
Is this something you think about as a possible base for magic ?
Yeah, emotional information in general was a candidate for queries in the interaction system (or whatever we end up with.) There are issues with this in both modes in terms of how emotions/stress are produced and managed and exposed to the player, so I'm not sure if it'll work without some addition directed work there.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Can we send parents and children off to the hillocks so we dont have to put up with them?
If we keep one parent behind, can we then arrange visits to their family by sending them off temporarily so they dont get all freaked out about not seeing them for too long?
Can we also send away peoples pets and unwanted livestock?
If i embark on a site with intelligent residents like animal people in the caverns or a cave or camp occupied by something other than kobolds, can i forcibly relocate them too?
On that front, do we have any say in who is allowed to settle in our hillocks sites? Would there be repercussions, like do other civs recognize evicting their diplomats or nobles as a potential insult to them? Does this count if we evict the populations of sites we conquered/forced to submit to our rule? Separately from the act of attacking and subjugating the site, obviously.
We can ask that poetry troupe we granted residency to to get lost right?
It doesn't allow for family separation. They are supposed to take their pets, but I'm not sure if it works.
You can only ask your own citizens to leave. The question of other intelligent outside groups already living on your site is kind of a mess, has been forever, and I'm not sure when we'll approach it.
You don't set the rules for hillocks right now, but you should be able to in the future, though that might be the law/property/etc. future rather than the near future. There could be a bit more for this cycle though, as the feature set expands.
Hmm, I have no idea if you can evict residents. It might trip up on the residency check but I'm not sure. Ideally, you should be able to do it.
Post by: Toady One on June 30, 2018, 03:52:14 pm
Quote from: Mort Stroodle
1. You've mentioned sphere-associated regions replacing good and evil regions. Can we expect ALL of the existing spheres to be represented in there (not in the same world necessarily, but all in the pool that the game chooses sphere regions from)? Some seem obvious like death-associated regions having the current evil region effects of reanimation or other nasty weather, some spheres could lead to cool things like dream-associated oceans, but some spheres don't seem to make as much sense for this system. A forest associated with "oaths" or a desert associated with "rumors" are hard to come up with magical or otherwise interesting effects for. Can we expect less interesting spheres to be omitted? Or do you guys think you're creative enough to be able to come up with interesting enough effects for all of them?
2. On a similar note, are some magical artifacts going to be similarly sphere associated? Will it be possible to have a revelry-associated magical scepter, or an agriculture-associated armor stand, for example? There's a whole bunch of spheres so it seems crazy-ambitious to try and come up with world region and artifact effects for all of them.
3. You've talked about changing the underworld into something completely different on a per-world basis, based on procedural myth stuff. Are there plans to try to preserve the "digging too deep" ending of the game between worlds in spite of this? I always kind of liked playing devil's minesweeper.
4. Since there are going to be new origin myths for different species, where does that leave the relationship between goblins and demons? Are the narratives just going to be twisted to fit the current status quo (ex: goblins were created when the gods cursed the dwarves, then a demon grew from the primordial fungus pits and enslaved the goblins) or is it going to be more dynamic, where goblins might not have had a demon master at all depending on how they came to be? If demons aren't necessarily a package deal with goblin civs anymore, might intelligent demons be able to manifest in the normal world during mythgen of certain worlds through some other means?
5. Since regions and magical systems are now going to change dynamically over time, is the myths update going to include a way to have a world re-enter world-gen after you finish a fort, in order to generate more history before playing again? Seems like a lot of effort to make things dynamic is going to waste if the average playtime on a single world doesn't last long enough to see those effects progress much. It would also be cool to see how wars and civilizations change over the long term based on the actions you made in your fort.
6. You've talked about players having to make decisions about whether they want to use an artifact, given the harmful side effects they have, like a staff of fire that pulls your fortress closer to the fire plane and causes everything to light on fire. How do you plan to communicate information about their uses and risks to the player? In some cases where the downsides aren't too horrible and it's not too hard to figure out what's going on, just making the player experiment and try using it could be fun, but the stronger the negative effects are and bigger the consequences, the less likely players will risk it at all. It's not worth playing with the Flaming Obsidian Mug of Lebesnóton if there's a chance it might fill your fortress with magma because you don't know what it does in advance.
7. How might players actually use magic in fortress mode? You've shown screenshots of the myth gen describing how dwarves could sing or speak a word or whatever to make some kind of magic happen, but right now we can't force a dwarf to sing or speak a word on command in fort mode. Will we be able to control when and where a particular dwarf uses a particular kind of magic? If some magic artifacts are clothing, will we get functionality to force a non-milita dwarf to wear a particular piece of clothing as well?
8. You've talked about religious sects forming in your fort and demanding certain things, like nobles. Is this system going to be integrated with temples or magic? I'm imaging a system where building a grand, high value cathedral for a cult will increase the success of their worshiping and rituals, improving your relations with a deity, which in turn could grant you strange moods to produce magical artifacts, blessings of good harvest/success in battle or other such benefits.
9. Similar note, right now dwarves can worship megabeasts like gods, presumably to appease them so they chill out and stop destroying everybody’s cities. This doesn’t actually do anything at the moment though. Might this relationship be expanded upon? Do you think we might actually be able to keep forgotten beasts at bay by worshiping them? Or maybe even convince them to attack your fort’s enemies? Or do you guys like the one-sided worship as it stands? It is kind of fun to think of dwarves desperately trying to appease the eight-legged bismuth porcupine that doesn’t care about what the dwarves are doing at all, and just wants to kill everything.
10. You’ve mentioned how worlds without magic will still have origin stories, they would just be fictional. Does this mean that worlds which DO have magic might also have fictional elements to their myths? Such as false gods, magical rites which do nothing, artifacts which are said to have certain magic effects but actually do nothing, etc. Would the players have an easy way to distinguish between fake magic and real magic, or would experimentation be necessary?
(PatrikLundell had a reasoned perspective on all of these. Adding more thoughts below.)
1. I doubt we'll get full sphere-effect coverage on the first pass, but at the same time, I think a forest of oaths and a desert of rumors are the more interesting of the examples, and there are many ways those can be realized, even just using the current systems, though it'd be preferable to have more systems in place (at least for oaths; rumors have a good-enough system for this -- even if the trees just whispered a random rumor from the world periodically, that would be something and quite a powerful place to camp a spy, or an entire 'listening post')
2. Same here; and yeah, some are definitely more ambitious than others. At the same time, having some sort of revelry artifact that made your fort into Party Central would be pretty cool, and there could be a few directed pushes here and there to make fortress artifacts more specifically interesting (and not always about killing things or defense or raw industry.)
3. Digging should certainly be interesting; I'm not sure it'll always be a similar sort of thing with a grand and sudden disaster though. The most Vanilla worlds might preserve the entire current setup, though we have not at all set in stone what "most Vanilla" means. It has dwarves. We know it has dwarves.
4. The goblin-demon relationship is a good candidate for a raw-defined, vanilla setup. The whole concept of 'demon' will float as the sliders move; we've made some semantic charts for 'demon', 'fairy', 'angel', 'titan', 'god', 'force', 'spirit', etc., and we're trying not to be beholden to English entirely when assigning categories to supernatural creatures, as that can be really limiting. This might lead to a bit of exposition on a new word that is central to a given world, and hopefully that on its own won't be a stretch; huge vocabulary drops are rough, but a crucial new category or two isn't so bad. And oftentimes, the English words will be sufficient; a variant of 'titan' will often be applied to any large-enough pre-god race, for example, as those are common associations for that word. Small pre-god races can't easily be called titans though; you could apply a diminutive to them, like... "The Little Titans", heh, but that doesn't always work so well. Or you can use "fairy", as they have the 'smaller' and 'a bit apart from traditional pantheons' associations that work well enough. Failing that, the "<random word>s", which it goes on to describe a bit. I imagine there will be lots of metrics and concept lists and all that to try and get the best output we can.
5. It has already been mentioned how it is hard to re-enter worldgen. I just wanted to acknowledge that there is a sort of "but we'll never experience the End Times, 500 years away!" bit here that can be a bit frustrating. An easier short-term solution is to have a world gen setting that prefers to place the play start date near crucial times on the myth calendar; this only works for the first batch of play-throughs in that world of course, before things settle down again (or the world is annihilated forever.) But the problem of restarting worldgen is not an easy one; it's clearly the best way to get certain kinds of layered pay-offs, but it's not easy, especially when the best pay-offs come specifically from recognizing the information which would be the sort that needs to be put back in the bag, as it were.
6. Yeah, exposition in general is a core problem with this release. We don't want any undeserved instadeath triggers, and if blatant expository paragraphs and giant warning windows are the only way to pull it off in a given case, we'll go with that. But yeah, research is also possible here. There is a certain element of Acts of Desperation we'd also be happy with, in a fort that is already falling especially, as that'll have a pleasant reverberation to future playthroughs in that world, even if the fort itself is a smouldering instadeath crater with demons buried underneath.
7. I expect this will be as PatrikLundell suggests; buildings work as usual, low-level atoms like 'sing'/'gesture' etc. would just be part of the ritual which is performed automatically (adv. mode is another matter -- I expect a lot of that will also be automatically, but only when it becomes more annoying and less fun, a line I'm not sure will be obvious every time.) There are some issues that have been raised in the past, particularly as it relates to clothing and also ammo/reagents; unsurprisingly, these are the things that DF already handles poorly (uniforms and bolts, respectively.) We'll just have to generally improve this stuff as/before it becomes cumbersome.
8. Yeah, I expect this'll be how it works -- as PatrikLundell said, the proper full integration of fortress groups is set for a later-than-magic release, but certain religious/magical aspects might find their way in.
9. The current system is amusing, but we wouldn't mind expanding it. Not sure what'll happen though.
10. I think PatrikLundell's thoughts here are sufficient; the only thing I have to add is that it's actually hard for us to handle certain types of falsehoods now, due to how the rumor system is set up, so there might be practical implementation difficulties here and there.
Quote from: Fatace
1. When the new Magic System comes out, will it be customiseable for modders to add other magic related things with raws?
3. If we have a Werebeast in our fort and send them out to a hillock, will they eventually worm their way back to fight or cause problems in the hillocks?
1. Yeah. The backbone of the current magic system, the interactions, are in the raws now, and that's not going to change. The procedural stuff will also be text-file directed. As with the procedural creatures, certain specific new cases (who knows which) might remain hard-coded as they grow into maturity, but we're intentionally trying to keep that from happening wherever possible, making sure everything 'vanilla' can be shut off (which is a requirement for the no-magic slider position at the very least), and thinking about formats which allow people to inject their own guiding data into the procedures with varying degrees of vagueness.
3. I have no idea if they'd be selected as a monster invader; their civilized status might preclude that? I don't think they'll return as a general migrant, as I understand it.
Quote from: Beag
1. One possible magic effect that has been mentioned is mind control. When it comes to player adventurers being mind controlled how will the loss of player control be handled? Will the player get to watch as the magic user controls their body?
2. Will there be cases of non-complete mind influencing magic where the magic user suggests for a person to do something? If so, if a player adventurer is subjected to it how will the partial loss of control be handled? What mechanics will be in place to ensure they obey the non-dominating mind magic?
3. Once the myth and magic update starts being released will there be more types of weaknesses for night creatures, cursed individuals and corrupted magic users? Currently were beasts are weak to certain metal weapons. Will stuff like holy symbols, natural terrain features and certain times of day be possible types of weaknesses?
4. Will types of curses be generated at myth gen or when the curse is given? Will generated curses have their weaknesses set on generation or will the weaknesses vary from curse to curse within the same type of curse?
1. It's too early to say. Speculating, the duration of the effect would be key here. Not good to retire the adventurer if it's a ten-second effect, almost required to retire the adventurer if it's a life-long effect (even if it can be cancelled somehow later.)
2. It's on the effect list (it's a common dnd thing, for example), but we haven't established rules for how it might work or if it'll be in on the first pass. Some rules are easier to enforce than others (direction of movement or restricted locations, for example; these are simple, along with prohibitions on speech, etc.), and we can always just use the rules we can enforce, and try to increase that list as methods are conceived of.
3. It is part of the night creature hunting role; it'll still be on that timetable, but the two things could end up being related, yeah.
4. Could be either way, and sometimes it's the same thing. I'm not sure about internal variation; typically that sort of thing is more annoying to do, but it'd be nice to have a framework that supports it.
Quote from: iceball3
As worlds become increasingly procedural, how do you see greater geological formations being impacted? Will any number of worldly influences cause the existence of more esoteric layer stones, for example, or will the procedural occurrences of the world make our planets particularly "Earthen" in all it's lands? Assuming players do not mod in bedrock formations that would otherwise make the world different, of course.
In the event that stone layers and similar mineral formations occur that are not what you would see in real life, how do you see handling it? Will stone layers be created by probable cause (such the present known terrestrial and extraterrestrial formations, as well as preset fictional minerals reasonably expected to be caused by things that influence stone layers in a consistent way during mythgen or otherwise), or will there be a subcategory of rare procedural minerals that are generated in tandem with whatever could influence it?
An example of the first case of the second question: Slade. In particular, it forms as a mineral layer as a result (or related to) the existence of air pockets beneath the crust.
That makes me think of another question.
Do you think slade would be a subject of interest for our magic-researches to be in the post mythgen eras? Or is slade in particular intended to be completely unapproachable, resistant to any mortal effort to glean useful information from it?
Also, at the end of the day, does your vision of slade have it as being truly indestructible? Specifically, in dis-regard to reachable game states, would there be a force in the universe that can damage or otherwise handle slade? This is more of a lore question, as the question of whether dwarves can do it might lead to my favorite slade-carving maybe-glitches being fixed, hehe
I suspect things will start to become more otherworldly if you don't have your sliders rescuing you from added strangeness; there are different fantasy takes on this. Some settings are very earth-like (and often said to be an ancient or future Earth), others have localized or a special subset of oddities but are still earthish, and others are only earth-like in certain broad ways (vegetation, humanoids, etc., more like science fiction at that point.) We hope to attain this range on the first pass; the hard part was the specific earth-like flora/fauna/etc, and that's already done in the raws to a great extent, thankfully. The other hard part is the map rewrite, which will allow us to deviate considerably in the overall geometry.
Miuramir and KittyTac covered minerals/layers more or less. A raw-defined mineral like slade can be given a creation story consistent with its properties. If there are templates for mineral classes, they'll be allowed to have more varied origins (we currently only have this partially, in hard-coded form, with the vault materials.)
As for the lore of the most Vanilla possible universe, I'm not entire certain; I imagine slade to be indestructible, in mundane terms, but clearly demons can shape it and thrust it about. I imagine it and adamantine would have some complex relationship. Are these numbers set up so processed (not raw) adamantine can bend slade but they both fracture at the same time, when tremendous force is applied?
Quote from: Urist McVoyager
Were the issues with local administrations abandoning the sites we conquer potentially caused by a skills issue, like the local administrators just not having enough discipline skill to stick it out with the threat of insurrections brewing? If so, will we see that facet kept, where cowardly administrations might actually abandon their holdings and come crying back to us with excuses for leaving?
No, it was a much more simple calculation everybody uses for the insurrection balance-of-power check. Personalities didn't enter into those raw numbers at all, as I recollect. Not sure what it'll look like when we get back to it.
Quote from: Su
will you be fixing insurrections this release cycle, or do you plan to return to them some time after myth and magic?
I'm not strictly anticipating it, but it depends on various factors (villains, further army work, etc.) The main issue is that you can't yet order large blobs of hill dwarves around, so using the current code, occupation by your fort's own forces is almost impossible, over most sites -- it's further exacerbated because the insurrection code doesn't care about skill or equipment yet. But if it becomes an easier-to-implement, fun, surmountable challenge, as we add other things, we can have another look.
Quote from: Charizard
Do you use a profiler to find performance problems?
On Linux, previously, though I never really figured out how to get much actionable information out of the charts. Now that's a moot point, as I'm laproscopically operating Linux through a tiny virtual machine window that has enough trouble with a regular compile.
Last time I tried something on Windows I couldn't figure out how to turn it off during the loading of a save (rather than profiling from start to finish), and it couldn't load a save without crashing. If the latest MSVC one is available on Community, I haven't tried it yet.
Quote from: Death Dragon
What is the difference between "vassal" sites and "economically linked" sites from a gameplay point of view? Economically linked ones are the ones that peacefully align themselves to you, right? Will they have the same functions and uses as normal vassal sites or do you plan on making them more different, giving them other uses or limiting them in their uses compared to vassals?
Did you already decide what you'll work on in this coming month? Will there be more improving/fixing/tweaking of the site administration stuff for now or will you jump straight to one of the next things (villains/adventure mode parties/mounts/etc)?
Did you and your brother come closer to a conclusion about how you'll handle mounts in the game? There were some interesting game design questions in the past about the implementation of mounts and because you said they are potentially one of the next things being worked on I was wondering if you have a better idea of what you want to do with them by now. For example: How to balance player control vs the animal having its own mind and also whether mounts will come to fort mode before the big wait or adventure mode only for now? If nothing changed in regards to the design of mounts, just answer "nope".
Vassal isn't really used right now, but it's in place for when you have, say, a few barons under your fort's count. Once you get a baron, it changes the market-linked ones to be direct holdings. They are still market-linked, which is the green link from the map export in legends mode, and is meant to reflect realities of the economy rather than what the nobles think is going on. I think there will be differences once we have more information stored, especially economically and in terms of how e.g. fairs work.
The report tomorrow should have the plans for next time.
Mounts. Nope, nothing new to report. Still looking forward to it.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Toady, I believe it was mentioned somewhere on the changelog that you implemented a fix to address county titles not upgrading themselves according to nobles, are you still satisfied with the active jobs quota for county title "level up" and state of the county system in general now that other civilization factors are coming into play or is this currently pending your attention later on in development? Your thoughts on the matter would be interesting
I'm not satisfied at all with the baron/holdings triggers generally, since there is no economy, but I'll have to live with what we have for now. Whether or not you get a title should be a completely political matter between your fort and the monarch, which respects the economy but where that perhaps has little to do with a particular elevation.
Quote from: pikachu17
What happens if during a raid, someone holding an artifact dies, either one of your soldiers or someone of the raided place?
Also, when you explore a cave or lair, they don't seem to find dragons and other megabeasts. Why?
It looks like the artifacts just get marked as lost on site, which should let questers find them, and will also place them in a random location if an player adventurer swings by.
No idea on the dragons. It doesn't look like there are e.g. civilization requirements in the code when it goes through and checks for defenders. Could be anything.
Quote from: Witty
Right now, all subterranean water sources are huge pools of stagnant water. With the underground rewrite that's been hinted to occur around the mythgen update, will we see a return of flowing underground cave rivers?
One of the core requirements of the map rewrite is to support underground cave rivers; taking the river idea from the surface and generalizing those structures so they work on more localized layers (I'll basically be using something like manifolds here, where there can be a rich non-uniform globe/universe-spanning structure connecting standard local 3D play areas in a seamless way; spherical/nonzero curvature shapes continue to be annoying, whereas flat spaces with interesting topology will be possible.) This should also allow us to not load the entire underground column no matter where you are, though we do have the eternal battle with gravity there to sort out (falling into the unloaded.) So once the map rewrite is a go, you'll have, hmm, at a minimum I'd expect underground rivers, neat not-always-layer underground bits, cylinder wrap-around worlds, multiple cameras, and some kind of planar travel? I'm probably forgetting some obvious freebies. The basic rewrite of the old code is hard, scooping up all the free stuff afterward is just fun and not so difficult, if I'm correct. But the hard part is hard. Hmm, not hard. A slog. A gigantic gigantic slog. Like "search in files for <x>". 10000 found. Okay. Same as the z-coordinate.
Quote from: scourge728
What is the range for "nearby" sites joining you?
It was supposed to be a day's walk, like 9 world tiles or so. But somebody already had one at three days away? So it seems buggy.
Quote from: JesterHell696
How mod-able do you intend the first pass of the myth gen and magic to be?
I ask because in the suggestion forums it was suggested that the first pass was going to be less/un mod-able.
I know that what is intended might not make the finale cut but as someone with a desire to mod in a specific magic system (Dominions 4) I'm really curious as to what the "goal" is in term of mod-ability.
...
I only hope there is enough player control to not be force to accept a magic system we don't like.
Shonai_Dweller had lots of relevant quotes. I just wanted to emphasize that I don't think this'll be a problem. Magic systems will go through a few text-file filters, and the magic systems will also be generated into a text-file compatible format (as they are currently with necromancers etc., but with more exposed text to control it), so you can create any system that's supported manually and turn off anything else. The open questions are more along the lines of how closely we can link a player-authored magic system into a generated mythologies (if the player in such a case still wants one), and whether those mythologies can be made to (pretend to) produce the system in some coherent way, and on the other hand, whether a fixed player mythology can be put at the front end and then be used to generate different but consistent magic systems. It would be ideal if each 'chronological' piece of the process could be made as authored or as generated as desired. Minus a bit of coherence, I think that'll be straightforward enough to allow.
This certainly isn't a case where you'll have to live with our bogeyman and forgotten beasts again, though you'll of course be able to crank the sliders and do that too. As stated above, certain bits might still be hard-coded as we sort them out, but you'll be able to turn them off, if they are related to the magic slider at the very least.
Quote from: JesterHell696
Do you think dynamic combination of magic will be possible with magic, an example being mixing water and fire magic on the fly to create steam or fire and earth to create magma or would such combinations need to be predefined?
Something needs to be defined somewhere; what the atoms are is up to the system. If we rely on chemistry etc. out in the typical game mechanics, we'll have the things we current have (magma and water produces steam and obsidian etc), plus anything that is explicitly added. If the system uses predefined conceptual nodes, like the spheres, then they can hop around the friend/parent/child/opposition relationships they have, and spell effects might be related to that. So, as a potential example, a light effect might miscast into a (generated) sun effect, which could be very bad -- I'm not sure what we'll have in this first pass, but this is the sort of thing that should be natural for it to do, as sphere-effect coverage grows. There's also a cross-over zone with stuff like the "sphere" regions; if a region is interacted with and its attached symbols change, then its properties might shift dynamically.
We don't currently have a (possibly generated?) sphere/concept math, like <sphere:earth> + <sphere:water> =e.g.= <sphere:muck>, but this sort of thing is possible and might come in with alchemy. There are various ways this can be done, and we've toyed around with a few of them in side projects. Not all ~120 spheres need to be represented; it could pick, say, 8 sufficiently "far apart" spheres at random, and then use whatever mixing system and generic sphere-effect generators to handle situations, with coverage and possibilities being increased as we add effects and conceptual linkages.
My anticipation now is that we'll have some of this to start, a few classes of generated system with this kind of behavior, and then it will improve and broaden over time.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Famous historical warriors stop using their weapons the moment they name (and decorate) them. Is this intended (It's now hanging on a wall never to be used), something unfinished for later expansion, or a bug? It's kind of odd having all these legendary single kill weapons around. Also worldwide artifact production from all races (except dwarves in player fortresses) stops after initial worldgen. I reported it as a bug, but is it?
Yeah, as Inarius says, it's kind of somewhere between unfinished and a bug. The item moves to a special inventory structure, and the game doesn't know how to handle that right now, but it should be added.
Artifact production stopping isn't teeeechnically a bug, but I don't mind it being treated like one. We don't have the industry or economy or anything, so we're not 100% perfect on having the proper industries and so forth picked, once worldgen stops (where we do sim more of this stuff), but there's enough information to wing it, and it's an important part of the game.
Quote from: Inarius
do you plan to add non-lethal madness ? Something like, talking about strange things, OCD, hallucinations.
Yeah, we are all for modeling personalities and other effects of various kinds. No idea exactly when. It seems more likely now that the first behavior along these lines will be magical rather than strictly psychological.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
Why is it that bridges are indestructible?
This is more than a decade in the past, so I'm not really sure anymore, and it depends on the context. For invaders, for example, it would inhibit their continued invasion. If you mean flammability or something, then the game is generally bad that way I think, and it might also relate to just how weird bridges were vs. fluids in the 2D version.
Post by: Dwarfu on June 30, 2018, 04:37:40 pm
...because they know what players can do with bridges when displeased.
haha!
Post by: Putnam on June 30, 2018, 04:48:13 pm
Are these numbers set up so processed (not raw) adamantine can bend slade but they both fracture at the same time, when tremendous force is applied?
Yes, though it won't bend by much. Also, unlike adamantine, slade can be permanently deformed without breaking, i.e. you can justifiably use adamantine tools to cold-shape slade.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 01, 2018, 04:12:10 am
:I believe this is still an issue, unless you've done something I've missed since 0.44.05.Quote from: ZM5Do you plan on fixing dwarves ability to form relationships this cycle, or do you think you'll end up replacing it with something more complex further down the line? I've noticed it still kinda seems like even with fort citizens socializing a lot, you very rarely get marriages, grudges and the like.
I recall asking this last time (maybe? it gets confusing between fotf and email and everything else), and if somebody answered I missed it; is this still an issue? I've had lovers and marriages among the starting 7 in my test forts in the last some versions, and there is more socializing now. Is there a bug report with saves associated to a newer release? I suppose I could check, but I'm working on FotF answers right now, heh.
I imagine relationships will get more complicated, as things tend to, but I don't have particular plans for them in the near-term.
:
- The starting 7 are poor test subjects because they start out with high relations. Most are friends with most of the others, so they've got a significant head start compared to migrants. Thus, they've got a lot shorter relations distance to go. They also aren't affected by the next point initially.
- The other issue is a scale one, and also ties into failures to satisfy social needs: Socializing seems to be random, i.e. a dorf socializes with whomever they happen to end up standing close to in the tavern, rather than cross to the other side to seek out friends and family. Since taverns tend to be full of visitors, this means most of the socializing "points" are spent on visitors who'll then move out (in particular with the fairly recent fixed visitor code), rather than with other citizens (and since citizens typically spend much time working, they're not spending all their time in the tavern, like visitors do).
Nuptial encouragement suites work, and forumites have reported sectioning of the fortress such that the dorfs are split into sub groups that are burrowed together also works.
What I think is needed for larger fortresses to work socially is some kind of additional social target selection, such that dorfs excuse themselves from strangers to move over to friends and family to some extent, as well as to do the same with people they have had some exposure to and "think" might make a good friend or lover/partner, and to favor fellow citizens/residents over visitors to a lesser extent. Avoiding those they have grudges against to some extent (unless they value arguing higher than the annoyance over dealing with a detestable dorf) might also make sense.
Thus, I think there's a socializing layer missing currently, but tweaking one (when implemented) may take a number of attempts.
Personality traits might affect such a process if the system is fancy: a novelty seeker who likes cultural differences ought to seek out visitors to a larger extent than one suffering from crippling shyness, and thus almost never talks with anyone they don't know (which should be parents and and siblings, to a large extent).
The issue can be seen fairly clearly in fortress raised children, who frequently have no relations to each other of most of the other citizens, but can have a long list of visitor plus one or two fortress members on their relations list.
Post by: iceball3 on July 01, 2018, 05:38:23 am
Post by: scourge728 on July 01, 2018, 10:54:03 am
...because they know what players can do with bridges when displeased.I'm just going to sig this
Post by: Max™ on July 02, 2018, 02:39:15 am
Mounts are also exciting... wait... carpentry+mount=dwarves scooting around on wooden velocipedes and scooters before slamming into walls... fund it.
Post by: JesterHell696 on July 02, 2018, 05:38:48 am
Post by: zakarum on July 02, 2018, 10:10:46 am
Right now you are moving to villain stuff, but I don't know if you are still going to look over the site interactions and since one thing relates to one another, well...
1. As your fort get more integrated in the world, how do hillocks interact with the surrounding biome right now (and in the future)? Will settling in an evil biome cause the hillocks that grow around your fort to have an undead/syndrome problem? Could they be overrun by the undead and end up with an invasion of your fort? Will you be able to send troops there to guard/fend off undead, beasts and such? Do sending troops there right now do anything?
2. Tying to the previous question, will we be able to "refuse" hillocks settlements? And if that's the case, I imagine the system would work as charts, with migrants (or citizens of your fort) asking for a chart to settle a land nearby. You could deny them because it's too dangerous, for example. How would the current count/barony system tie with the fact that hillock might not pop up because you denied them/place is too remote?
3. Conversely, how do/will hillocks interact with invaders? Could a necromancer rampage through the hillocks to try and raise a larger army to invade you? Would you be able to send patrols to try and intercept the necromancer before it snowballs in a huge army of the undead?
4. You are now moving to the "villain role", though I'm not sure this is "individual" (as in adventurer is a bad guy) or generic (goblins, "large scale bad guys"). Tied into that is slavery in the dev page, though only mentioned 3 times. Slaves right now are a rare occasion and only happen during site destruction in world gen. Since we have more assets now (hillocks) than just the fort itself, will that shift the paradigm of invaders to relate to all that? Let me give a few examples. Right now all invaders want your complete destruction, but it would make more sense for them to want your partial destruction just for their own gain.
4.1 It's pretty easy to lock yourself right now and wait for a siege to pass (ignoring future tunneling units), but wouldn't the invading army raid/plunder the hillocks while you hide (which would also make the invasion last longer, since they have supplies)? Could a siege be done for specifically to gather slaves/undead without losing a lot of lives from the invading force while they force the army (you) to be shut in your fort or occasionally harass you if you try to stray too far away from the fort?
4.2 Tying to 4.1, what kind of problems would this cause for the player? Refugees you can't deny/or deny with consequences? The need to divert resources to reconstruct hillocks? Demotion from duke/barony status (can that even happen?)? Overall anger and sadness in your fort population by the destruction caused in their neighbors or isolation of being locked in the fort?
4.3 Will invaders ever attack you not only aiming for your total destruction? Could it be that they just want to carry off the riches they can and set out? Would some slavers drive by and just take your citizens then go off?
4.4 With the upcoming villain stuff, will invaders use hillocks citizens to try and get to you? Could they occupy a site and hold it for ransom and convince a citizen to come to your fort to, let's say, pull the bridge lever when they come?
5. Will the role of "raider" get in this release? (In the sense of temporary forces, either outlaws or enemies, that come to take people or valuables, causing death and destruction but not enough to end the game)
6. Finally, are there respective plans for the stuff I asked in any arc, if it's not coming in the current cycle of hillock/villains?
Thanks Toady
Post by: Criperum on July 02, 2018, 10:44:14 am
Post by: Rockphed on July 02, 2018, 10:53:18 am
Quote from: Mort Stroodle7. How might players actually use magic in fortress mode? You've shown screenshots of the myth gen describing how dwarves could sing or speak a word or whatever to make some kind of magic happen, but right now we can't force a dwarf to sing or speak a word on command in fort mode. Will we be able to control when and where a particular dwarf uses a particular kind of magic? If some magic artifacts are clothing, will we get functionality to force a non-milita dwarf to wear a particular piece of clothing as well?
7. I expect this will be as PatrikLundell suggests; buildings work as usual, low-level atoms like 'sing'/'gesture' etc. would just be part of the ritual which is performed automatically (adv. mode is another matter -- I expect a lot of that will also be automatically, but only when it becomes more annoying and less fun, a line I'm not sure will be obvious every time.) There are some issues that have been raised in the past, particularly as it relates to clothing and also ammo/reagents; unsurprisingly, these are the things that DF already handles poorly (uniforms and bolts, respectively.) We'll just have to generally improve this stuff as/before it becomes cumbersome.
I now want an adventure mode magic system that includes having to do the the right singing/gestures/ritual components to cast magic. I foresee the system offering hints as to what various options will cast, with the option to have the proper course for a certain spell highlighted. Then there is a bit of "Behold my phenomenal cosmic power!" combined with some "That sword looks scary, how about I stop trying to blast him with a fireball and just hit him instead."
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 02, 2018, 11:20:11 am
Thanks for the answers Toady!
Right now you are moving to villain stuff, but I don't know if you are still going to look over the site interactions and since one thing relates to one another, well...
1. As your fort get more integrated in the world, how do hillocks interact with the surrounding biome right now (and in the future)? Will settling in an evil biome cause the hillocks that grow around your fort to have an undead/syndrome problem? Could they be overrun by the undead and end up with an invasion of your fort? Will you be able to send troops there to guard/fend off undead, beasts and such? Do sending troops there right now do anything?
Thanks Toady
Villians were discussed and necromancers fit the description of a villian but how that pans out with factors like re-animating biomes/necro towers conquering sites you'll have to pick toady's brains over because we have not a lot of clarity of a moment besides the shortlist on the monthly report without a devlog explaining. (See answer to question 3 for clarity about defenders in sites by transferring military dwarves)
Some of your questions, while it is important in principle to probe around the question for detail, wriggling in suggestions isn't recommended since we have a helpful subforum for proposed game additions. (anything that might be a percieved suggestions underlined, just for helpful reference)
Quote
2. Tying to the previous question, will we be able to "refuse" hillocks settlements? And if that's the case, I imagine the system would work as charts, with migrants (or citizens of your fort) asking for a chart to settle a land nearby. ((You could deny them because it's too dangerous, for example)). How would the current count/barony system tie with the fact that hillock might not pop up because you denied them/place is too remote?
That's really a 2 and 2a) question but at the given moment with economic sites, dependency on you for safety from "villians" is quite likely so that you're not totally detached from the world, and just to, the current reasoning for infinite distance is that the offerings of wealth you give your caravan initially draws people from your civ to settle near you.
Quote
3. Conversely, how do/will hillocks interact with invaders? Could a necromancer rampage through the hillocks to try and raise a larger army to invade you? Would you be able to send patrols to try and intercept the necromancer before it snowballs in a huge army of the undead?
A lot of this pertains to a particular scenario rather than a question, though the scenario is a important one of whether enemies of your site will go attack your holdings first. In the current game its a case of if your holdings site is attacked, then the usual 'defenders' and attackers scenario, so you can already fend off attacks by transferring soldier dwarves (so i believe via conquerers occupying) but nothing professional at the given moment.
Quote
4. You are now moving to the "villain role", though I'm not sure this is "individual" (as in adventurer is a bad guy) or generic (goblins, "large scale bad guys"). Tied into that is slavery in the dev page, though only mentioned 3 times. Slaves right now are a rare occasion and only happen during site destruction in world gen. Since we have more assets now (hillocks) than just the fort itself, will that shift the paradigm of invaders to relate to all that? Let me give a few examples. Right now all invaders want your complete destruction, but it would make more sense for them to want your partial destruction just for their own gain.
Goblins already take slaves ingame, if you're connecting the link between expanded villiany options & roles from the devlopment plans, then a more fleshed out system may be possible, but im not saying anything imparticular because that's really for Toady to say and decide. Maybe it'll turn up as a viable development candidate, maybe it wont.
Questions 4.1 - 4.4 answered in enclosed spoiler.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
5. Will the role of "raider" get in this release? (In the sense of temporary forces, either outlaws or enemies, that come to take people or valuables, causing death and destruction but not enough to end the game)
One for Toady, though you could kind of either bend the question any number of ways. Repeating question 4.3 in the spoiler much.
Quote
6. Finally, are there respective plans for the stuff I asked in any arc, if it's not coming in the current cycle of hillock/villains?
Plans change, Toady might drop the first release of the villian arc and put it on hold if something better or complications come up in the way of something else (like a different direction for hill arc). Id recommend you re-read some of the FotF replies over the years as they had some pretty detailed explanations about the chronology of features for arcs.
Phew, i need a rest, i hope i could be of help.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 02, 2018, 01:36:24 pm
:Not with dwarves, as dwarves (excluding players) don't settle in evil biomes. They can tone down savage biomes to become possible to settle in over the centuries, but there is currently no process in place for pushing away evilness (that will likely change with spheres, although not necessarily in the first arc).
1. As your fort get more integrated in the world, how do hillocks interact with the surrounding biome right now (and in the future)? Will settling in an evil biome cause the hillocks that grow around your fort to have an undead/syndrome problem? Could they be overrun by the undead and end up with an invasion of your fort? Will you be able to send troops there to guard/fend off undead, beasts and such? Do sending troops there right now do anything?
:
If you play a modded race that settles in evil biomes, well, that's what they do and presumably should suffer the consequences of it (although goblins seem to do fine with it, and I would guess that the reanimation effect isn't modeled yet, so I'd guess you wouldn't have any problems until Toady addresses that issue, which I would expect wouldn't be a priority until vanilla generated playable races can get generated to settle in such spheres).
Post by: voliol on July 02, 2018, 02:03:39 pm
I have a question about FotF itself. If there was an answer on the question from one of the guys from forum and Toady just adds some thoughts about it but not answering from the beginning can the original answer be posted in FotF along with Toady's answer or at least postlinked?
Ooh, that would be nice. I suppose it's possible to browse the previous pages but still, it'd be nice. Make your text green to make sure Toady sees it.
Post by: Knight Otu on July 02, 2018, 04:25:21 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on July 03, 2018, 12:57:54 pm
1. Will villain level behaviours carry over to more legimate characters? After all Religions are not that much different then cults. Kindoms or Groups of Guards work in a way like gangs on a grander scale too or with different goals.
2. Will Players be an active part of those things. Say a cult officialy wanting to etablish a temple at your fort, Rulers demanding (not just requesting) gear or Warriors. Quests to steal/retrieve certain artefacts where your Adventurer or Fort are approached from a third party (even under false pretenses). Down to a thievesguild using your messhall as meetingplace.
3. Will you be able to enact your own devious plots? Paying people to do "evil" action like assasinating certain people or sending out some of your adventurergroups to recover certain things for you or set stuff in motion.
4. Will there be interaction between the various villian groups and persons? One cult undermining another, certain banditgroups working together and sharing information etc. ?
Post by: Tobihaze on July 03, 2018, 02:47:38 pm
The whole concept of 'demon' will float as the sliders move; we've made some semantic charts for 'demon', 'fairy', 'angel', 'titan', 'god', 'force', 'spirit', etc., and we're trying not to be beholden to English entirely when assigning categories to supernatural creatures, as that can be really limiting.
1. If I'm not mistaken, does this mean that we could generally predict the behavior of a creature based on its tag?
2. Additionally, is the category system intended to generate creatures with certain characteristics based on the tag assigned to the entity? As in, "fairies are generally cute flying things" while "angels are divine entities". That sort of thing.
3. Lastly, if the semantic charts do influence the creature's generation, does "trying not to be beholden to English" mean new creature types? Basically, if you were to create a tag for hellenic creatures, would they conform to what we'd expect from Greek mythology? Would a youkai sit in the mountains yelling at people rather than attacking like a normal night creature? Does this create the possibility for a world to generate with sub-classes of specific creature types? For example, dividing the fairies (or anything, really) into two "courts" that don't get along and have certain traits associated with the type.
Again, I love your monsters. Some of them are downright bizarre, and I love what they do for the atmosphere in the game.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 03, 2018, 04:37:29 pm
:Not with dwarves, as dwarves (excluding players) don't settle in evil biomes.
1. As your fort get more integrated in the world, how do hillocks interact with the surrounding biome right now (and in the future)? Will settling in an evil biome cause the hillocks that grow around your fort to have an undead/syndrome problem? Could they be overrun by the undead and end up with an invasion of your fort? Will you be able to send troops there to guard/fend off undead, beasts and such? Do sending troops there right now do anything?
:
They can start in evil (or good) mountains though, as a concious choice i dont know whether Toady would enable the option for economic sites to. There are no entity.txt controls for telling a civilisation to not settle in a specific biome, such as elves settling in evil jungles or humans on good plains & rivers.
Savage biomes are still off-limits, but where they start is irrelevant to any particular rules as long as its the right biome.
Post by: Vivalas on July 03, 2018, 06:44:13 pm
Quote
It's not worth playing with the Flaming Obsidian Mug of Lebesnóton if there's a chance it might fill your fortress with magma because you don't know what it does in advance.
I don't know, that sort of thing sounds exciting to me-- I would love to play SCP Fortress and lock a random dwarf in an isolated chamber with an unknown artifact to see what happens. I think I even flavored my first fortress as a "dwarven research facility", and magical research is quite interesting.
Anyways, I read that bit about the FAQ, but it's somewhat hard to go and find answers from previous FotF unless you've been reading them all, and the forum search seems very useless sometimes. Apologies if this has been asked:
With improvements to sieges include some sort of look at balancing the cage trap. Right now it's a very icky thing that pops up when I play, whether or not to use them or not. While of course players can just use restraint, it's nicer to have mechanical reasons. The dev page mentioned somewhere about multi-tile traps, but is there perhaps a few short-term tweaks that could make cage traps a bit less powerful? Right now if you build enough of them to match the invader cap, you really don't have to do much but open the gates and capture everyone.
Granted, I noticed in an older fort after 34.11 that invaders seem more cautious towards traps, and I can't tell if this is noted anywhere, but I noticed that attacking goblins very slowly creeped down my main trap hallway, as if suspiciously, and immediately ran out and refused to enter my fort once one got trapped. I don't know if this is a feature or bug or some other behavior, but it's in the same realm of trap balance improvements.
Post by: arcaneArtist on July 03, 2018, 07:02:17 pm
currently, all characters seem to be cisgender and dyadic, with some inherently genderless beings like sponge men mixed in, so expanding on this would add in more representation and variety to the game. i could also see it slotting in with the laws and customs expansion mentioned in the Fortress Starting Scenarios framework, since some of the customs and laws (not necessarily ones added in the initial update, but maybe sometime later) could revolve around the roles and definitions of genders within a society, stuff like what it means in this society to "be a man/woman/whatever other genders this society has"
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 03, 2018, 08:04:12 pm
A question that i thought of today: are there any plans to expand gender within the game?
currently, all characters seem to be cisgender and dyadic, with some inherently genderless beings like sponge men mixed in, so expanding on this would add in more representation and variety to the game. i could also see it slotting in with the laws and customs expansion mentioned in the Fortress Starting Scenarios framework, since some of the customs and laws (not necessarily ones added in the initial update, but maybe sometime later) could revolve around the roles and definitions of genders within a society, stuff like what it means in this society to "be a man/woman/whatever other genders this society has"
You'll want lime green for questions.
That said, I don't recall if Toady has actually said anything about his plans regarding that. My guess is that, if it gets added, and even if in-universe attitudes are ever added (procedural-generated or fixed), more likely the player will still have final say over anything that's actually relevant to a dwarf's functioning in the fortress itself.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 03, 2018, 09:11:39 pm
Planned for traps during this update phase is possible invader intelligence (they'll avoid areas where there were traps). That's only if development gets that far before the cut-off date.QuoteIt's not worth playing with the Flaming Obsidian Mug of Lebesnóton if there's a chance it might fill your fortress with magma because you don't know what it does in advance.
I don't know, that sort of thing sounds exciting to me-- I would love to play SCP Fortress and lock a random dwarf in an isolated chamber with an unknown artifact to see what happens. I think I even flavored my first fortress as a "dwarven research facility", and magical research is quite interesting.
Anyways, I read that bit about the FAQ, but it's somewhat hard to go and find answers from previous FotF unless you've been reading them all, and the forum search seems very useless sometimes. Apologies if this has been asked:
With improvements to sieges include some sort of look at balancing the cage trap. Right now it's a very icky thing that pops up when I play, whether or not to use them or not. While of course players can just use restraint, it's nicer to have mechanical reasons. The dev page mentioned somewhere about multi-tile traps, but is there perhaps a few short-term tweaks that could make cage traps a bit less powerful? Right now if you build enough of them to match the invader cap, you really don't have to do much but open the gates and capture everyone.
Granted, I noticed in an older fort after 34.11 that invaders seem more cautious towards traps, and I can't tell if this is noted anywhere, but I noticed that attacking goblins very slowly creeped down my main trap hallway, as if suspiciously, and immediately ran out and refused to enter my fort once one got trapped. I don't know if this is a feature or bug or some other behavior, but it's in the same realm of trap balance improvements.
Planned for the future, won't be included in this release (confirmed in previous fotf), is the complete trap update, which you can find on the dev notes. That'll be about the same time as ships and moving fortress parts. So cages respecting size, complex traps made of many moving parts, rocks positioned to fall from other areas, etc. The "wooden cage traps dragon" slight unbalance that we have now is just a placeholder.
Post by: KittyTac on July 04, 2018, 12:15:46 am
fairies are generally cute flying thingsThe original Celtic Fair Folk were monstrous creatures.
Post by: Rose on July 04, 2018, 12:18:30 am
faeries will rip your guts out, for fun.
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 04, 2018, 01:16:40 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 04, 2018, 01:34:00 am
It can also be mentioned that there is a slight balancing of traps: spies blend in with visitors and report traps back to their civ, so invaders can just bypass those traps. I've personally seen that in my fortress, but I have yet to actually find a spy (I want to investigate what they look like with DFHack to possibly find out how to identify them properly). I've removed and rebuilt cage traps, and that has worked to some extent. As far as I can tell, every visitor is actually a spy for their own civ, so relying on traps when you raid a settlement of a civ many of your visitors come from can have an interesting side effect...Planned for traps during this update phase is possible invader intelligence (they'll avoid areas where there were traps). That's only if development gets that far before the cut-off date.QuoteIt's not worth playing with the Flaming Obsidian Mug of Lebesnóton if there's a chance it might fill your fortress with magma because you don't know what it does in advance.
I don't know, that sort of thing sounds exciting to me-- I would love to play SCP Fortress and lock a random dwarf in an isolated chamber with an unknown artifact to see what happens. I think I even flavored my first fortress as a "dwarven research facility", and magical research is quite interesting.
Anyways, I read that bit about the FAQ, but it's somewhat hard to go and find answers from previous FotF unless you've been reading them all, and the forum search seems very useless sometimes. Apologies if this has been asked:
With improvements to sieges include some sort of look at balancing the cage trap. Right now it's a very icky thing that pops up when I play, whether or not to use them or not. While of course players can just use restraint, it's nicer to have mechanical reasons. The dev page mentioned somewhere about multi-tile traps, but is there perhaps a few short-term tweaks that could make cage traps a bit less powerful? Right now if you build enough of them to match the invader cap, you really don't have to do much but open the gates and capture everyone.
Granted, I noticed in an older fort after 34.11 that invaders seem more cautious towards traps, and I can't tell if this is noted anywhere, but I noticed that attacking goblins very slowly creeped down my main trap hallway, as if suspiciously, and immediately ran out and refused to enter my fort once one got trapped. I don't know if this is a feature or bug or some other behavior, but it's in the same realm of trap balance improvements.
Planned for the future, won't be included in this release (confirmed in previous fotf), is the complete trap update, which you can find on the dev notes. That'll be about the same time as ships and moving fortress parts. So cages respecting size, complex traps made of many moving parts, rocks positioned to fall from other areas, etc. The "wooden cage traps dragon" slight unbalance that we have now is just a placeholder.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on July 04, 2018, 05:32:15 am
If you were going to start making DF from scratch again, what would you do differently?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 04, 2018, 06:41:39 am
With the map rewrite, can we expect floating islands and castles in the sky? If so, will they move over the map? That would suggest the possibility of a segue into mobile forts and ships.Floating islands, probably, yes. (It's a favorite feature of fantasy worlds, apparently - past fotf reply).
Ships are planned for the ships update (when moving fortress parts are introduced - basically all moving bits of map, which would probably include floating islands actually moving about).
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 04, 2018, 07:53:33 am
If you access floating islands via portals (requires two way portals to work properly -> not the first release) it's probably fairly straight forward. If the island is accessed by flying it may be trickier (although it IS mostly just a very big flying craft with potentially rock [and more exotic stuff] that can be mined). However, a craft that covers several mid level tiles will probably require some special logic. Pathing might be interesting if a floating island docks with a mountain or a shore, for instance, although it might not be fundamentally different from opening a drawbridge/mining a hole, and movement would require dynamic loading/unloading of tiles as per adventure mode.With the map rewrite, can we expect floating islands and castles in the sky? If so, will they move over the map? That would suggest the possibility of a segue into mobile forts and ships.Floating islands, probably, yes. (It's a favorite feature of fantasy worlds, apparently - past fotf reply).
Ships are planned for the ships update (when moving fortress parts are introduced - basically all moving bits of map, which would probably include floating islands actually moving about).
Post by: Tobihaze on July 04, 2018, 11:13:29 am
Yeah, I know. I just put down the "cute winged thing" descriptor since that's what we have in the game right now, even if things like dullahan were fairies. It'd be really cool if Toady does something to represent the good-neutral-bad sorts of monsters within a class of creature. He could even make a dichotomy template that is applied to a class of creatures on world gen that fit the bill under the mythology generated for that world.fairies are generally cute flying thingsThe original Celtic Fair Folk were monstrous creatures.
Of course, this is all assuming that the tag pulled actually influences the creature's generation and is not arbitrarily assigned to creatures who have already been generated.
Post by: Bimbus on July 04, 2018, 12:57:25 pm
2. Will the Semi/Megabeasts become more unique with the myth/magic update? Will they be procedurally generated similarly to forgotten beasts, just with more limitations so that they can still be recognized as hydras, dragons, cyclops, etc?
3. Is there any future plans for a manual way to progress time in a world, without going into/out of a fortress/adventure mode save?
Post by: Vivalas on July 04, 2018, 03:28:02 pm
Planned for traps during this update phase is possible invader intelligence (they'll avoid areas where there were traps). That's only if development gets that far before the cut-off date.QuoteIt's not worth playing with the Flaming Obsidian Mug of Lebesnóton if there's a chance it might fill your fortress with magma because you don't know what it does in advance.
I don't know, that sort of thing sounds exciting to me-- I would love to play SCP Fortress and lock a random dwarf in an isolated chamber with an unknown artifact to see what happens. I think I even flavored my first fortress as a "dwarven research facility", and magical research is quite interesting.
Anyways, I read that bit about the FAQ, but it's somewhat hard to go and find answers from previous FotF unless you've been reading them all, and the forum search seems very useless sometimes. Apologies if this has been asked:
With improvements to sieges include some sort of look at balancing the cage trap. Right now it's a very icky thing that pops up when I play, whether or not to use them or not. While of course players can just use restraint, it's nicer to have mechanical reasons. The dev page mentioned somewhere about multi-tile traps, but is there perhaps a few short-term tweaks that could make cage traps a bit less powerful? Right now if you build enough of them to match the invader cap, you really don't have to do much but open the gates and capture everyone.
Granted, I noticed in an older fort after 34.11 that invaders seem more cautious towards traps, and I can't tell if this is noted anywhere, but I noticed that attacking goblins very slowly creeped down my main trap hallway, as if suspiciously, and immediately ran out and refused to enter my fort once one got trapped. I don't know if this is a feature or bug or some other behavior, but it's in the same realm of trap balance improvements.
Planned for the future, won't be included in this release (confirmed in previous fotf), is the complete trap update, which you can find on the dev notes. That'll be about the same time as ships and moving fortress parts. So cages respecting size, complex traps made of many moving parts, rocks positioned to fall from other areas, etc. The "wooden cage traps dragon" slight unbalance that we have now is just a placeholder.
I might be mistaken, but isn't the bit with the whole "invaders avoid traps" already in somewhat? I don't know what was going on in that fort, but the goblin (ambushers) definitely decided not to dwelve further into my fortress after a trap was triggered.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 04, 2018, 04:03:21 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on July 04, 2018, 06:56:51 pm
Toady was in this pcgamer interview a while ago and he mentions player spies and villain plots at around minutes 29 and 35 specifically.
http://dl.pcgamer.com/PCG_Show_123_March19_2018_GDC_01.mp3 (http://dl.pcgamer.com/PCG_Show_123_March19_2018_GDC_01.mp3)
It's essentially what's also listed on the dev page though.
1. What can we expect for medical options with the upcoming Adventure mode medical improvements? Will there be doctors like in fortress mode, and/or will it be up to the player character to diagnose and heal their injuries?For 1 and 3: There have been replies to questions about adventure mode medical rework and "re-entering world gen" time progression stuff in the last couple Toady posts. I think what you can expect as answers is that the specifics for the medical rework aren't set in stone yet except that it will bring it closer to fort mode levels (he does have a ton of notes for it though apparently) and that Toady acknowleges that a way to fast forward time in the world is something that would be useful, but is a difficult problem to handle. In his last post he mentioned making world gen stop at specifically interesting times so that the player wouldn't have a need to fast forward time.
2. Will the Semi/Megabeasts become more unique with the myth/magic update? Will they be procedurally generated similarly to forgotten beasts, just with more limitations so that they can still be recognized as hydras, dragons, cyclops, etc?
3. Is there any future plans for a manual way to progress time in a world, without going into/out of a fortress/adventure mode save?
For 2, well not sure if he plans on making the classic beasts more random, but we do already have titans which are basically randomly generated megabeasts. Depending on what your world creation sliders are set to, the classic beasts might not show up in a world at all.
Post by: Bimbus on July 05, 2018, 06:17:15 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 05, 2018, 07:16:12 am
I dont quite get why the game can move forward two weeks every time you play, but not any other way? Doesnt make much sense to me. Is there really no way to make the same thing possible without going into the game modes?Watch the videos, read Toady's words. He's the only coder, he should know what's incredibly difficult and what isn't. Pretty sure he's not making stuff up just to mess with your mind.
edit
He first (as far as I recall) mentions the difficulties here:
https://youtu.be/L67Xb4tgVv8
(At around the 1 hour point).
Then he mentioned a bit more in the fotf reply that followed this video (I recall because I asked a question right after watching it).
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 05, 2018, 07:37:12 am
The two week embark time isn't the same thing as putting the game back in the box: it does everything that happens in the world in fortress (and, I presume, adventure) mode in the background, but not the fortress' own stuff. It may look fast to you, but try it on a crowded world, and that's only two weeks as well, not two years.I dont quite get why the game can move forward two weeks every time you play, but not any other way? Doesnt make much sense to me. Is there really no way to make the same thing possible without going into the game modes?Watch the videos, read Toady's words. He's the only coder, he should know what's incredibly difficult and what isn't. Pretty sure he's not making stuff up just to mess with your mind.
edit
He first (as far as I recall) mentions the difficulties here:
https://youtu.be/L67Xb4tgVv8
(At around the 1 hour point).
Then he mentioned a bit more in the fotf reply that followed this video (I recall because I asked a question right after watching it).
Just running DF without a fortress isn't hard, and I think the two week period has been hacked to be longer (MaxTM?), but the speed is very much slower than world gen, so you're rather unlikely to be willing to use that to advance the world more than a few years, not the centuries a "reboxed" DF would allow for.
Post by: Bimbus on July 05, 2018, 08:28:58 am
Post by: UristMcEngineer on July 05, 2018, 08:30:55 am
It is no exaggeration if I say that in my opinion Dwarf Fortress is one of the most amazing achievements of humanity in the last decade.
It would be a catastrophe if the world lost the ability to work on it, because of a fire or your demise.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 05, 2018, 08:47:22 am
How do you protect the DF code from getting lost?That question has been answered in the past. There are backups off site, and there's also a will (with a clause to ward off foul play).
It is no exaggeration if I say that in my opinion Dwarf Fortress is one of the most amazing achievements of humanity in the last decade.
It would be a catastrophe if the world lost the ability to work on it, because of a fire or your demise.
I'm still not exactly sure why there cant be an option to move the world forward manually, even if it was only two weeks. To clarify, I am not asking to reenter world gen, just to move the world forward in time, the same way it does every time you play on a world.There is no technical reason blocking it, but it's not something that is of any priority for Toady to implement. You can easily move the world forwards by two weeks at at time by embarking and retiring/abandoning (the same site repeatedly if you don't want to clutter the world with embarks).
Post by: Vivalas on July 05, 2018, 10:45:40 am
How do you protect the DF code from getting lost?That question has been answered in the past. There are backups off site, and there's also a will (with a clause to ward off foul play).
It is no exaggeration if I say that in my opinion Dwarf Fortress is one of the most amazing achievements of humanity in the last decade.
It would be a catastrophe if the world lost the ability to work on it, because of a fire or your demise.
So much for my plans to assassinate Toady for the source code
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 05, 2018, 11:31:17 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 05, 2018, 12:30:48 pm
Keep it clean please, its a valid question of a contingency plan but im pretty sure Toady would not condone violence over the issue at all.
Will this villian arc centre on whichever 'villian' has the most interesting solution/improvement, or do you have a specific heirarchy/plan of which goals you want to follow up and improve upon from the proposed candidates?
(Edit for a new question to avoid double posting)
Will you continue to improve the messengers you introduced in this version onwards for this Arc? Or are they going to be temporarily postponed until villians get a little bit more attention?
Post by: Onebadterran on July 07, 2018, 08:37:32 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 07, 2018, 09:10:48 pm
Is there a plan to implement pain tolerance building up over time so we can train armies that feel no pain (or don't care)?Limegreen text if that's a question. Or, more usefully, move to suggestions board if its a suggestion.
Post by: Magistrum on July 07, 2018, 10:35:35 pm
Is there a plan to implement pain tolerance building up over time so we can train armies that feel no pain (or don't care)?I guess the current willpower attribute is pretty much that, it seems to govern how much pain is needed for you to pass out right now.
Post by: Lumpy on July 08, 2018, 05:28:10 am
2. I noticed that if bandits actually try to rob you, they start a non-lethal conflict should you refuse to submit, which is a very nice touch! Is there any chance non-lethal victories over bandits or entities in general will be kept track of by the game and tied into the reputation system, eventually? I imagine something like being able to accuse someone of banditry, then beating them up to the point where they yield, and then being able to "summarize the conflict in which you subdued Stealy McBandit", resulting in a reputation gain without being considered a killer.
3. As you probably noticed by now, I am especially fond of the adventure mode part of the game. I am aware that this would probably fall into the economy arc and is not a priority, but is there any chance coins will become stackable before the long wait, and paying tavern keepers with currency will become an option? This is admittedly a minor issue, but I just have to ask, for I seemingly have a coin fetish going and tend to carry ridiculously large quantities of them with me.
Post by: KittyTac on July 08, 2018, 05:30:27 am
Post by: Lumpy on July 08, 2018, 05:48:38 am
If you kill a bandit, you are a killer, not a murderer. A killer is a neutral reputation, murderer is the bad one.
True, I edited that part. Nonetheless, it would be nice if the game tracked non-lethal victories over entities.
Post by: Death Dragon on July 08, 2018, 09:41:51 am
1. Can we expect some improvements regarding hostilities in adventure mode to be part of the villain arc? Banditry, in particular. I've read various comments on this forum about how in a time before time, bandits were actually aggressive and attacked you when walking straight into their encampment. Currently, they tend to ignore you, unless they are on a specific mission to rob someone, in which case they might try to rob the player, but only after nonchalantly chatting about the weather and inquiring about why one is travelling. Any chance things will get a bit more dynamic in this regard before the long wait?Well this almost sounds like a feature not a bug. It's probably true that they shouldn't let anyone just randomly walk through their encampment and yeah the villain update might change this, but it's important that we keep having the option of talking to them, so we can interact in another way with them or join them, and they don't just turn into mindless "enemies" like in every other computer RPG.
Post by: Lumpy on July 08, 2018, 01:20:10 pm
Well this almost sounds like a feature not a bug. It's probably true that they shouldn't let anyone just randomly walk through their encampment and yeah the villain update might change this, but it's important that we keep having the option of talking to them, so we can interact in another way with them or join them, and they don't just turn into mindless "enemies" like in every other computer RPG.
Oh, sure, absolutely. But walking right into their encampment as a stranger to them should evoke at least some kind of reaction. I was referring to the state of bandits in general. Their behavior feels kind of passive and sometimes erratic. Even when they try to rob you when encountering them outside of encampments, they demand your submission so many times before taking any action that most of the times, you can just walk away. Stuff like that.
Post by: Eric Blank on July 08, 2018, 05:37:13 pm
I recall asking this last time (maybe? it gets confusing between fotf and email and everything else), and if somebody answered I missed it; is this still an issue? I've had lovers and marriages among the starting 7 in my test forts in the last some versions, and there is more socializing now. Is there a bug report with saves associated to a newer release? I suppose I could check, but I'm working on FotF answers right now, heh.Ive noticed that my dwarves dont form any sort of relationships often too. I think it has to do with the difference between "no job" idling versus "socializing." When the dwarves have "no job" they will form relationships with other idle dwarves they bump into. As in you dont have a tavern or library to entertain them. praying/meditating at a temple doesnt seem to take up too much of their time alone, but they spend days and days reading books or "socializing". During "socializing" or dancing/singing/reciting poetry or observing performances, they dont seem to actually be forming any sort of relationships, except in those brief moments where they have "no job". Its like they consider that tavern socializing function to be a job so refrain from the socializing part of socializing. But in a fort where theres little work and you have smallish meeting areas and no tavern or library/books, then when dwarves arent working they will idle with the "no job" task listed, and make friends with everybody.
I imagine relationships will get more complicated, as things tend to, but I don't have particular plans for them in the near-term.
I stuck a couple dorfs in a hole in the ground to quarantine them for possible werebeast infection, and with literally nothing to do they became friends in a couple months. Dwarves socializing in taverns often dont know one another's names, and ive actually seen thoughts stating "i saw a dwarf perform the satiny sweetnesses in the loaf of buttering, its very interesting" as in theyre referring to that person, another member of the fort for over a year, as a stranger, by species/caste name, not by personal name. Their relationship screen would then show theyve literally never met the guy. Sometimes theyre "socializing" right next to one-another, though.
So i think there is a bug, and it has something to do with the difference between socializing activities versus actual idling w/o a job. They definitely form relationships when idling, but dont seem to when socializing as an activity.
As a suggestion to test, i would split a forts population in three, with one group working all the time (too many labors for the # of dwarves to perform at any given time), one having no work to do and no locations to perform the new socializing activities, just a 11x11 or so meeting area, and a third having nothing but a fully stocked but small tavern. I would predict the tavern dwarves and working dwarves would form very few relationships, and the idling dwarves should form many. Of course theyd all have to have food, so maybe the working dwarves can be tossing food and drink onto stockpiles in the other dwarves' areas from above
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 08, 2018, 06:57:23 pm
Solving the socialisation issue is one thing but creating a non-hostile enviroment for the most sociable ever dwarves is much more difficult. Given how aggressively dwarves pursue their needs they're never sated of having to revisit the temple after a good worship session because they're flicking to the next priority need or hinging on the same one for long periods of time due to facets being uneven and never able to be filled & left alone for a little bit.
I've covered a few of these topics with #0010676 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10676)
Post by: scourge728 on July 10, 2018, 06:46:25 pm
Post by: iceball3 on July 10, 2018, 07:44:57 pm
For a couple of examples, based on what I've heard is going to come when mythgen has come to pass (That is to say: mythgen is something I've heard that is likely already planned to do what I'm listing, I'm just listing the mundane counterparts we don't have yet):
-Magic that immobilizes and moves the targets vs mundane restraints and dragging units, which would likely come with the justice rework.
-Magic that treats and cures ailments vs functional mundane apothecaries and knowledge-system implemented medicine.
-Magic that bends the mind vs functional coercion, interrogation and mechanical feedback on social situations from the character's social skills.
And so forth. I'm not suggesting these particular mechanics get implemented, just asking where they sit in relation to release priority their likely-magical-counterparts that'll come during the mythgen releases.
That aside though, thanks for the new update, Toady! It's been a world of fun keeping up with the dramatic new changes you're doing! That makes me think of one more question.
How does it feel now that the sphere of influence of the player's fortresses are now really starting to stick their fingers to the local world? I understand that the "bringing the world alive" updates were both more ambitious, and basically necessary before these new changes came to exist, but seeing those foundations come together in really cool player-usable mechanics must be pretty exciting, yeah?
My favorite part is how functional yet flavor-fully we can put unwanted or unnecessary dwarves and their families "out to pasture" without having to kill them, as well as being able to draw on a pool of local dwarves in the world more selectively. This extra allocation of resources will provide a good deal of player-strategic thinking potential, as well as increasing the potential stretch room for more difficult scenarios and gameplay. It does sort of pull on the "You have what you get" experience though, for folks trying to achieve that, but I imagine that when embark-scenarios are realized, that would be a problem solved rather neatly.
Post by: KittyTac on July 10, 2018, 09:25:17 pm
Is the Golden Salve intended to be given some use during the magic stuff?Probably depending on the world's settings.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 10, 2018, 10:01:14 pm
Although probably no more so than any other substance. "This ritual requires drinking an entire barrel of gremlin sweat..."Is the Golden Salve intended to be given some use during the magic stuff?Probably depending on the world's settings.
Post by: scourge728 on July 10, 2018, 10:04:10 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 10, 2018, 10:11:37 pm
I'd LIKE to imagine that due to it's rarity it would be at least SOMEWHAT better than more common ritual ingredientsI imagine gremlin sweat would be rarer than golden salve in worlds which feature it's use in mass destruction rituals and vice versa. Or perhaps not, but those worlds probably wouldn't make it past worldgen...
Well, let's see what Toady says.
Post by: scourge728 on July 10, 2018, 10:17:59 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 10, 2018, 10:29:34 pm
I never said gremlin sweat would be more or less rare, I was responding to the claim of "probably no more so than any other substance"Yes, and I said, it might depend on how rare golden salve is in any particular world (if the system were calculating backwards, "not much of a substance will exist = major player in mythgen rituals". Which doesn't seem as likely as "Major player in mythgen rituals = enforced rarity in worldgen". That's assuming rarity is considered at all).
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 11, 2018, 06:02:50 pm
I'm immediately thinking up the mental image of them calling themselves that a being basically some sort of fantasy-realm punk subculture thing.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 11, 2018, 07:35:09 pm
So, given it seems you can encounter non-questors taking the identity of criminal, and it seems they might not always actually have a criminal record, what even is the justification for them being labelled criminals?What do you mean by "non-questors"? Are you referring to the Fortess mode bug where ex-spies appear as migrants with their spy professions (peddler, beast hunter, criminal, etc) still in place?
I'm immediately thinking up the mental image of them calling themselves that a being basically some sort of fantasy-realm punk subculture thing.
Or Adventurer? I imagine criminals you encounter in the outside world are meant to be part of the criminal organizations. That they're not, is just an incomplete feature. Doesn't need "justification" beyond "this detail not yet fleshed out" like a huge number of other things.
(Yeah, I always imagine them as misguided youths. I'm a Criminal, respect me!)
Post by: golemgunk on July 13, 2018, 04:48:26 pm
I'm immediately thinking up the mental image of them calling themselves that a being basically some sort of fantasy-realm punk subculture thing.
I figured the reasoning was they're masquerading as a criminal to try to pick up rumors from the local gangs.
Urist Totallynotacop: "how do you do, fellow crooks. anyone steal any precious artifacts lately?"
Post by: iceball3 on July 14, 2018, 05:02:46 am
Civilizations have an effective distance before they're not considered contacts for you in dwarf fortress mode. Does sending raiding parties extend their sights a bit when considering retaliation, or are you effectively immune to their influence at such distances?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 14, 2018, 05:07:28 am
If someone else knows the answer to this, that would be good, but:Raiding apparently negates any distance restrictions (and siege triggers). Mentioned by Toady in an fotf quite a while ago. Seems work from the little experimentation I've done.
Civilizations have an effective distance before they're not considered contacts for you in dwarf fortress mode. Does sending raiding parties extend their sights a bit when considering retaliation, or are you effectively immune to their influence at such distances?
Post by: iceball3 on July 14, 2018, 05:15:13 am
Post by: DG on July 15, 2018, 05:08:05 am
Quote
You can now create as many characters as you want when you start adventure mode, and they'll start together as a party.
and
Quote
we are planning on adding full turn-based control mode for combat purposes, which you can turn on and off
is unexpected but awesome. The Baldur's Gate vibe I'm getting surely isn't entirely because of shoulder riding hamsters. :D
Post by: iceball3 on July 15, 2018, 06:03:49 am
Party based systems would be glorious to have formation-style combat with, but I can see reasons why it might not be presently considered.
Post by: thvaz on July 15, 2018, 06:38:53 am
Post by: Kadzar on July 15, 2018, 11:37:55 am
Post by: ZM5 on July 15, 2018, 01:53:10 pm
What I mean is, if a civ only has dwarves available as adventurers, will we only be able to start dwarves from there, or will the "main" adventurer have the dwarf-only restriction, but other party members will be able to be humans, elves, etc. as mercs or friends of the main adventurer?
Post by: Beag on July 15, 2018, 02:43:12 pm
2. Will player vampires be able to start their own vampire cults and recruit NPCs to serve them? Will they be able to promote their cultists to full vampires by offering them their blood in this villain fleshing out update?
3. Will bandit groups give player lieutenants quest types different than what a hearth person would get in this villain fleshing out update?
4. Finally will criminal groups finally do more than just hang out underground in this villain fleshing out update? Maybe steal some stuff at night?
Post by: falcc on July 15, 2018, 06:04:39 pm
Unrelated, what about pits and dark fortresses make them unsleepable?
I've modded my goblins to be more sociable but their new taverns still don't sound very inviting since you have to stumble through the trenches drunk to sleep. Although that is a very Dwarf Fortress experience.
Post by: Rockphed on July 15, 2018, 07:14:18 pm
If you made an animal whose younger forms were shoulder pet sized but as an adult is bigger than you, which of those sizes is it going to think about in terms of its mechanics? Can you tag a pet for both vermin and mounts?
Vermin are a completely different chunk of code than larger animals (though they do have defined features now). So you cannot have an animal that is both a vermin and can be mounted. I'm not sure if the shoulder-riding hamsters are vermin, or if they are small animals that can target humans as riding targets. If the latter, then I suspect that you can have a creature that over its lifespan goes from cute, cuddly shoulder pet, to moderate sized attack dog, and finally ends up as a mount.
Post by: KittyTac on July 16, 2018, 12:22:34 am
Post by: Orangefriedegg on July 16, 2018, 12:46:59 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 16, 2018, 01:02:45 am
Will you add fireworks, cannons, hand cannons, rocket arrows or other gun powder based inventions at any point?
If I recall, isn't the answer "I'm pretending that China didn't invent gunpowder well before the 1400s" basically? XP
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 16, 2018, 01:28:22 am
No. That wasn't the impression he gave last time it was discussed (when ships were being talked about as I recall). Which was still kind of doubtful but, less so now that "vanilla" is a much looser context. Interested in seeing what the answer is now.Will you add fireworks, cannons, hand cannons, rocket arrows or other gun powder based inventions at any point?
If I recall, isn't the answer "I'm pretending that China didn't invent gunpowder well before the 1400s" basically? XP
Don't actually recall any interview even years and years ago where he mistakenly gave the technological cut off date as a reason for not wanting cannon sieges. You'd have to post a link to that one (I expect Zach's corrected him by now though).
Post by: ArmokGoB on July 16, 2018, 03:09:24 am
Post by: KittyTac on July 16, 2018, 03:18:21 am
In the upcoming adventure mode update can you throw vermin pets as weapons like you can with the normal vermin you find with 'L'ook?You can throw ANY item, so if they are items, yes. You can also use any item as a melee weapon. So you can murder someone with a hamster.
Post by: DwarfToys on July 16, 2018, 05:03:38 am
Will you add fireworks, cannons, hand cannons, rocket arrows or other gun powder based inventions at any point?
If I recall, isn't the answer "I'm pretending that China didn't invent gunpowder well before the 1400s" basically? XP
Unless the various posts & wiki aren't up to date, doesn't the ability to get a minecart to somewhere around ~3.5MJ of kinetic energy eliminate the need for gunpowder during sieges?
These ended up being questions with random braindumps attached. Don't mind that, I enjoy rambling.
1. After magic, etc, are there plans for technological advancement over time?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
2. A much simpler one... Gunpowder brings a lot of other kinds of fun, but just reading about history, what about these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow), not necessarily with the poison?
They're not a massive technological leap from the complex mechanisms + crossbows the dwarves already have, and don't really do much except make citizens either more or less of a liability during a siege. Hand them out and hope they help and don't start shooting other dwarves for fun, or just let the military use them as a shorter distance but faster-firing crossbow...
Post by: KittyTac on July 16, 2018, 05:56:17 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 16, 2018, 06:18:40 am
No. Technological progress will be forever locked in the 1400s or lower in some cases. I had read somewhere that after DF v1.0 there will be increased modding support basically to the level of modifying the source, though. Magitek is probably possible, though.Hmm. If technological advancements were locked in place there wouldn't be a need for scholars and the as yet mostly unused technical knowledge system. 1400 (ish, it is fantasy after all) seems to be the limit to the technological advancements, not the start line.
Once blowing stuff up magically becomes a regular fun way to pass the time, I imagine the stance on blowing stuff up mechanically/chemically will become a bit more relaxed. Especially in mundane worlds.
Post by: KittyTac on July 16, 2018, 06:58:25 am
Hence why I said "lower in some cases". I knew that it's the end limit.No. Technological progress will be forever locked in the 1400s or lower in some cases. I had read somewhere that after DF v1.0 there will be increased modding support basically to the level of modifying the source, though. Magitek is probably possible, though.Hmm. If technological advancements were locked in place there wouldn't be a need for scholars and the as yet mostly unused technical knowledge system. 1400 (ish, it is fantasy after all) seems to be the limit to the technological advancements, not the start line.
Once blowing stuff up magically becomes a regular fun way to pass the time, I imagine the stance on blowing stuff up mechanically/chemically will become a bit more relaxed. Especially in mundane worlds.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 16, 2018, 07:06:47 am
"Forever locked" implies that lower tech civs won't be able to advance over time which, I think, isn't the case. The whole masterplan when it comes to tech is a bit vague at the moment though.Hence why I said "lower in some cases". I knew that it's the end limit.No. Technological progress will be forever locked in the 1400s or lower in some cases. I had read somewhere that after DF v1.0 there will be increased modding support basically to the level of modifying the source, though. Magitek is probably possible, though.Hmm. If technological advancements were locked in place there wouldn't be a need for scholars and the as yet mostly unused technical knowledge system. 1400 (ish, it is fantasy after all) seems to be the limit to the technological advancements, not the start line.
Once blowing stuff up magically becomes a regular fun way to pass the time, I imagine the stance on blowing stuff up mechanically/chemically will become a bit more relaxed. Especially in mundane worlds.
Post by: KittyTac on July 16, 2018, 07:11:51 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 16, 2018, 08:39:08 am
I can wait for further development notes but ill go back and revise my questions if any new information comes up, its all good stuff and im sure many people will be happy with the prospect of perfectly optimising their d20 dwarf fortress adventurer squad.
Wouldnt be suprised if it started a GM lead DF D&D community story subgenre (with the usually quite detailed artwork and narration that goes into DF community stories usually like acclaimed titles of Mong-Kima, Bravemule & the infamous renditions of Boatmurdered amongst many others)
Post by: DwarfToys on July 16, 2018, 01:53:58 pm
"Forever locked" implies that lower tech civs won't be able to advance over time which, I think, isn't the case. The whole masterplan when it comes to tech is a bit vague at the moment though.Hence why I said "lower in some cases". I knew that it's the end limit.No. Technological progress will be forever locked in the 1400s or lower in some cases. I had read somewhere that after DF v1.0 there will be increased modding support basically to the level of modifying the source, though. Magitek is probably possible, though.Hmm. If technological advancements were locked in place there wouldn't be a need for scholars and the as yet mostly unused technical knowledge system. 1400 (ish, it is fantasy after all) seems to be the limit to the technological advancements, not the start line.
Once blowing stuff up magically becomes a regular fun way to pass the time, I imagine the stance on blowing stuff up mechanically/chemically will become a bit more relaxed. Especially in mundane worlds.
The technical knowledge / books and libraries are the main reason I was wondering. I'm not thinking of some silly RTS style tech-rush type thing of course, just eventual small random developments in the world over hundreds of years of world time. Even if scientific knowledge, base technology, etc stayed at the same level they were at the beginning of the world, you'd expect new, random, and probably useless inventions to pop up using existing tech levels based on sheer "let's see what this does" merit.
If they do pop up during a player fortress, random generation would ensure most of them would be entirely useless:
Quote
Memo to Urist McManager, Malachite 278
Urist McScholar has invented a mechanical wax opal menacing spike applicator (for bolts)! Patent pending.
Manager: For Armok's sake, what is it this time... Somebody get Urist McScholar in here!
Scholar stumbles in.
Manager: What... (waves paper) exactly is this?
Scholar: Well, it's a wax opal spike applicator.
Manager: What does it do exactly?
Scholar: You... simply hook it up to a lever using mechanisms. Then hook that up to powered gears. Then load a stack of bolts into it. Then load wax opals in here. Then a dwarf needs to walk over and pull this lever, and supervise the device for 8 hours until the entire stack of bolts menaces with spikes of wax opals!
Manager: You're aware that we do not, in fact, have any wax opals, and haven't found any during exploratory digging?
Scholar: Well, the human that showed up had an interesting but poorly written treatise on...
Manager: And the device has to be hooked up to a lever with mechanisms?
Scholar: Well yes sir, how would it turn on without a lever?
Manager: Um well, and it has to be powered with gears, while the dwarf does what exactly?
Scholar: He watches sir. The device has been known to jam sometimes and requires supervision to clear...
Manager: AND... McScholar, are you aware that all three of our jewelers are capable of putting menacing spikes of, and this is important, cut stones we actually have access to on anything within a fraction of the time this device takes?
Scholar: Well yes sir, but it saves labor! Those dwarves can be doing something else and let the machine do the work!
Manager: Doing something else, like... watching the machine?
Scholar: Exactly, sir! Much less work.
Manager: McScholar, get the hell out of here.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 16, 2018, 04:09:36 pm
Toady, will this upcoming version have much more inclusion of pets for other NPC's to be using? ((like soldiers & groups dispatched from sites riding upon horses, or people's personal pets becoming involved in fights with their masters))Raiders take their pets with them right now and they get involved in the fighting. And you can be invaded by mounted troops. So, your question is about adding the ability to send mounted raiders?
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on July 16, 2018, 08:44:21 pm
In fort mode, I've noticed that the legendary blue of a peasant and legendary magenta of a noble aren't used as non-legendary "base" colors for any other civilian profession (though they are used for high level sword- and hammerdwarves). Do you have plans for these colors for new or improved civilian classes in the future?
If not, I'm off to the suggestion forum.
- Dame de la Licorne
Post by: Bumber on July 16, 2018, 10:08:28 pm
Hi!Isn't purple used by traders? (And scholars, etc., but those are sort of like nobles.)
In fort mode, I've noticed that the legendary blue of a peasant and legendary purple of a noble aren't used as non-legendary "base" colors for any other civilian profession (though they are used for high level sword- and hammerdwarves). Do you have plans for these colors for new or improved civilian classes in the future?
If not, I'm off to the suggestion forum.
Edit: Unless you meant bright magenta, specifically.
Post by: KittyTac on July 16, 2018, 10:10:40 pm
They are dark purple AFAIK.Hi!Isn't purple used by traders? (And scholars, etc., but those are sort of like nobles.)
In fort mode, I've noticed that the legendary blue of a peasant and legendary purple of a noble aren't used as non-legendary "base" colors for any other civilian profession (though they are used for high level sword- and hammerdwarves). Do you have plans for these colors for new or improved civilian classes in the future?
If not, I'm off to the suggestion forum.
Post by: Dame de la Licorne on July 16, 2018, 10:25:57 pm
They are dark purple AFAIK.Hi!Isn't purple used by traders? (And scholars, etc., but those are sort of like nobles.)
In fort mode, I've noticed that the legendary blue of a peasant and legendary purple of a noble aren't used as non-legendary "base" colors for any other civilian profession (though they are used for high level sword- and hammerdwarves). Do you have plans for these colors for new or improved civilian classes in the future?
If not, I'm off to the suggestion forum.
The dark purple is used for doctors, scholars, entertainers and all nobles. The bright magenta (which I called "legendary purple") is used only for hammer lords or blinking legendaries of the aforementioned list, and does not have a civilian job-set, as far as I can tell.
Edit: I've modified the original question to read "magenta" instead of "purple", since that's what I meant.
- Dame de la Licorne
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 17, 2018, 04:15:54 am
Oh, just noticed "equipment pages". That's gorlak sized helmets without the need to make them in a fortress first, right? Woot!
Post by: Witty on July 18, 2018, 12:29:16 pm
Hi!
In fort mode, I've noticed that the legendary blue of a peasant and legendary magenta of a noble aren't used as non-legendary "base" colors for any other civilian profession (though they are used for high level sword- and hammerdwarves). Do you have plans for these colors for new or improved civilian classes in the future?
If not, I'm off to the suggestion forum.
- Dame de la Licorne
Magenta is the default color for the monarch, and the light blue is the default color for the monarch's consort - in theory at least. That being said, I think the consort color coding hasn't actually been the in the game for a long while but it's still in one of the questionmark menus.
Post by: KittyTac on July 18, 2018, 10:21:34 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 19, 2018, 01:52:14 am
Toady, will this upcoming version have much more inclusion of pets for other NPC's to be using? ((like soldiers & groups dispatched from sites riding upon horses, or people's personal pets becoming involved in fights with their masters))Raiders take their pets with them right now and they get involved in the fighting. And you can be invaded by mounted troops. So, your question is about adding the ability to send mounted raiders?
Not particularly, its about histfigures already being mounted upon animals or surrounded by war animals like bandits in the world already with a clear relation of ownership more than a question about mounted raiding, which toady has replied to answers to in the past in respects for being mounted upon animals having certain advantages over difficult terrain etc.
Post by: DudeeDew on July 19, 2018, 03:39:34 am
1) Better lineage system and name generation. So that families will be more distinguishable, family members in the world trying to live in the same buildings, and, of course, all of them having same last name. Haven't seen this in planned updates, will it be implemented at some point?
2) Will it be possible to have some expanded family-level interaction? For example, greedy heirs giving you quests to assassinate the head of the family (as a subgroup of assassination quests mentioned in /dev), or possibility to gain influence with some people by helping their relatives (since losing it so that relatives seek revenge is already mentioned in /dev). Or even having a wife (or one-night stay) in adventure mode, birthing your adventurer's kid who is playable after growing up?
LATE EDIT: just realized I've completely forgotten another question I had in mind.
3) How deep will the disguise system be? Will there be some kind of special makeup items like fake beards and moustaches, some magical illusions and all that?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 19, 2018, 05:59:30 am
I'd like to know about these two things (being actually elements of the same system, I guess?):Settling down and playing your grown up kids is in the dev notes somewhere. There are long threads in the suggestions forums discussing families and naming conventions.
1) Better lineage system and name generation. So that families will be more distinguishable, family members in the world trying to live in the same buildings, and, of course, all of them having same last name. Haven't seen this in planned updates, will it be implemented at some point?
2) Will it be possible to have some expanded family-level interaction? For example, greedy heirs giving you quests to assassinate the head of the family (as a subgroup of assassination quests mentioned in /dev), or possibility to gain influence with some people by helping their relatives (since losing it so that relatives seek revenge is already mentioned in /dev). Or even having a wife (or one-night stay) in adventure mode, birthing your adventurer's kid who is playable after growing up?
Post by: DudeeDew on July 19, 2018, 09:56:15 am
Settling down and playing your grown up kids is in the dev notes somewhere.If it is, it's not in public notes then. Double checked that searching by keywords.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on July 19, 2018, 10:49:14 am
Settling down and playing your grown up kids is in the dev notes somewhere.If it is, it's not in public notes then. Double checked that searching by keywords.
Toady mentions it being in the dev notes in DFtalk 21,
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_21_transcript.html
Rainseeker: Yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing, too, I think - or I was thinking about earlier today - would be to be able to have a lineage, a succession. For adventures, you know. You get married, you have a child, and you take over his line again. Maybe you could have some training that you could give your child, and then he gets some bonuses or something.
Toady: Yeah, the elements that - I think there's four or so elements that we decided broadly make that up and that's all in the development notes for the pre-version 1 stuff. So that's all going to go in sometime. We just have to get through the various hurdles of getting a spouse, and doing the time-forward motion, and stuff like that. And we've gotten quite a bit further with that now. I mean, your retired adventurers can already get married now.
Heh, I read those dev notes even checking if there was anything on it, but my overheated brain must've failed to process it actually said "playable heirs" xD
Post by: Knight Otu on July 19, 2018, 01:04:33 pm
Quote
RELATIONSHIPS ARC: You should be able to take a spouse, make a household, and create playable heirs as an adventurer. The dwarven relationships and personalities can also be expanded upon. Related to Core59, Core60, Bloat51, Bloat93, Bloat95, Bloat105, Bloat123, Bloat374, Bloat375, Bloat380, PowerGoal20, PowerGoal21, PowerGoal109 and PowerGoal119.
Core60, HEIRS, (Future): Having playable heirs in adventure mode would be fun. Dwarves should also do a bit more for their children than sometimes running to pick them up when they are crawling toward the magma vent as infants, and the notion of the family in general could afford to have more impact on the game.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 19, 2018, 04:02:26 pm
Post by: Bimbus on July 19, 2018, 06:26:41 pm
Would you consider releasing a version of your standalone myth generator prototype, like you showed off at GDC? I imagine that people would appreciate something to check out during the Big Wait.Id also like to know about this, Id love any chance to mess around with it before its finished.
Post by: GenericUser on July 19, 2018, 06:57:31 pm
It would be really cool to have a sort of traveling band spreading dwarves music across the world.
Post by: Beag on July 19, 2018, 09:53:35 pm
I'm glad I'm not the only one who would find much amusement in messing with a prototype myth generator.Would you consider releasing a version of your standalone myth generator prototype, like you showed off at GDC? I imagine that people would appreciate something to check out during the Big Wait.Id also like to know about this, Id love any chance to mess around with it before its finished.
Post by: squamous on July 21, 2018, 12:17:02 pm
1. Will more than one person be able to sit on a single mount if the mount is big enough?
2. Will riders of mounts be able to control the abilities of the mounts? For example, would a rider of a giant armadillo, for example, be able to have the creature retract into its shell at will, or would the creature only do that on its own? Will riders be able to directly order an animal to attack, like say, have a horse kick at a target? Or will the choice to attack be entirely up to the animal?
3. Will we see mounted soldiers in adventure mode if we stumble across a traveling army, or mounted bandits in a camp?
4. Will there be any changes to mounted unit AI in battle? Will someone on horseback with a bow try to stay away from melee soldiers, if they don't already? Will flying units do the same?
5. This question is primarily just pertinent for modding purposes, but will it be possible to make it so a mount is inside and protected by the creature they are riding 'in' instead of riding on top of it, or otherwise have some sort of defensive bonus for being mounted on a creature?
Post by: Dr. Melon on July 22, 2018, 05:25:04 am
Post by: Death Dragon on July 22, 2018, 07:24:50 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 22, 2018, 08:20:19 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 22, 2018, 09:00:51 am
Will ethics bound torture methods have any further development on the basis of helping uncover conspiratorial villian plots in the latest development log or are you putting them aside for later use?Toady mentioned this when it first came up a few months ago. Right now, Dwarven ethics will not allow torture, and that stands - but we'll see what the situation is when work starts.
So, that would be interesting to get an update on.
Second, interrogating prisoners is marked for both Fortress and Adventurer, so isn't limited to dwarves even in vanilla. Humans are happy enough to torture. So if you can torture a captive in Adventurer, it'd presumably be easy enough for modded fortress mode civs to do the same (probably).
Post by: KittyTac on July 22, 2018, 09:05:33 am
Or procgen races being OK with torture or even requiring it.Will ethics bound torture methods have any further development on the basis of helping uncover conspiratorial villian plots in the latest development log or are you putting them aside for later use?Toady mentioned this when it first came up a few months ago. Right now, Dwarven ethics will not allow torture, and that stands - but we'll see what the situation is when work starts.
So, that would be interesting to get an update on.
Second, interrogating prisoners is marked for both Fortress and Adventurer, so isn't limited to dwarves even in vanilla. Humans are happy enough to torture. So if you can torture a captive in Adventurer, it'd presumably be easy enough for modded fortress mode civs to do the same (probably).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 22, 2018, 09:08:23 am
Just talking about the upcoming updates for now. The far future will be a lot more procedurally generated, yes, so really everything is up for a 'yeah possibly, no concrete plans yet' answer.Or procgen races being OK with torture or even requiring it.Will ethics bound torture methods have any further development on the basis of helping uncover conspiratorial villian plots in the latest development log or are you putting them aside for later use?Toady mentioned this when it first came up a few months ago. Right now, Dwarven ethics will not allow torture, and that stands - but we'll see what the situation is when work starts.
So, that would be interesting to get an update on.
Second, interrogating prisoners is marked for both Fortress and Adventurer, so isn't limited to dwarves even in vanilla. Humans are happy enough to torture. So if you can torture a captive in Adventurer, it'd presumably be easy enough for modded fortress mode civs to do the same (probably).
Question:
So, to expand on what you said in the devblog, if your mayor, your Captain of the Guard your bookkeeper and all your temple dancers are secretly plotting the downfall of civilization, what kind of Fun can we expect? Or is this 'hidden fun stuff' on a social level that we'll just have to discover for ourselves?
Post by: Harpadarpa. on July 22, 2018, 10:57:57 am
Post by: Rockphed on July 22, 2018, 11:49:02 am
So when you mention a network, does that imply that each agent can have multiple agents of their own? Ie Urist McMastermind might have three lieutenants, and each of those might have two underlings. If so, or even if the mastermind gets caught in old or unrelated charges what does this mean when the Mastermind is caught? What happens to the remaining agents? Do they continue with the plot on their own terms, or do they abandon the quest out of self preservation?
Or do they spontaneously combust to tie up loose ends?
Post by: GenericUser on July 22, 2018, 04:11:45 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 22, 2018, 04:14:50 pm
Will we have the option join an existing villainous plot, say if we proved our loyaty to a villain?That's what the final paragraph about adventure mode villainy says, so yeah!
Post by: GenericUser on July 22, 2018, 05:08:03 pm
If I’m reading it correctly, then it was talking about creating plots, not joining them. So, shrug.Will we have the option join an existing villainous plot, say if we proved our loyaty to a villain?That's what the final paragraph about adventure mode villainy says, so yeah!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 22, 2018, 05:35:13 pm
Ah, yeah, you're right.If I’m readcing it correctly, then it was talking about creating plots, not joining them. So, shrug.Will we have the option join an existing villainous plot, say if we proved our loyaty to a villain?That's what the final paragraph about adventure mode villainy says, so yeah!
Hopefully this will be a thing. You can join bandit camps and become a vampire's hearthperson already so seems reasonable.
Post by: Witty on July 22, 2018, 05:55:46 pm
Would you consider releasing a version of your standalone myth generator prototype, like you showed off at GDC? I imagine that people would appreciate something to check out during the Big Wait.Id also like to know about this, Id love any chance to mess around with it before its finished.
Third'd. Not sure how much of a pain compatibility and such would be, but I think most people would be happy and figure out work arounds if it was just thrown out there as-is.
As a followup to my previous question on underground cave rivers, will the terrain rewrite hypothetically allow for subterranean civilizations? The current iteration of subterranean animal people don't work too well as of the latest version, but they were pretty bare bones to begin with. Could this allow for them to be a little closer to normal civs if only in terms of being able to build sites underground?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 22, 2018, 09:23:01 pm
Post by: KittyTac on July 22, 2018, 10:34:28 pm
Huh. The devlog about villainy actually reminded me of That Which Sleeps. Which makes me a little sad, but also very excited about the possibilities in the upcoming updates.What is That Which Sleeps?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 22, 2018, 11:08:40 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 23, 2018, 02:19:03 am
:Presumably, the map rewrite should set the stage for the underground as well. However, the actors won't just magically appear out of that, but instead there'd have to be work specifically for the civs, and I'd expect there would be two different branches to that:
As a followup to my previous question on underground cave rivers, will the terrain rewrite hypothetically allow for subterranean civilizations? The current iteration of subterranean animal people don't work too well as of the latest version, but they were pretty bare bones to begin with. Could this allow for them to be a little closer to normal civs if only in terms of being able to build sites underground?
1. Playable underground civ (extremely deep dwarves?) and as part of more or less weird world settings. Some M&M arc, but might not necessarily make it into the first one (and if it does, it might be bare bones).
2. Tribal people implementation, where peoples live in some kind of tribes. This would primarily be animal people, although I don't see any reason why there couldn't be "primitive" human/dwarven/elven/goblin/odd RNG creature tribes as well, once the mechanics are in place. Underground tribes would really just be a special case of combining an underground setting with tribal people. If I understand it correctly, tribes will have to wait until civ/law/customs.
Post by: Beag on July 23, 2018, 12:03:40 pm
2. If you are an agent of someone else can you still continue the branching chain of command by enticing with money or positions some subordinate agents to work for you to continue your master's plans?
3. Could being an agent for someone be a possible way to gain a civ level position as stated as one of the pre myth and magic release candidates?
4. Can you give me some examples of what agent missions would be like?
Post by: Fatace on July 25, 2018, 07:15:10 pm
1. With the introduction of better adventure mode party mechanics, has the idea of the possibility to spar with a party member to help gain levels in combat skills come around, and will this be possible even if you recruit someone after making the party?
2. After creating the party and adventuring out, will we be able to switch between newly recruited members?
3. If pets are possible.. will there be a update to let adventure mode players tame creatures?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 25, 2018, 07:21:29 pm
The devblog seems to indicate that you won't be able to, "...if a character is in your official starting party, you can swap control between them freely..."
2. After creating the party and adventuring out, will we be able to switch between newly recruited members?
but would be interested to hear why. Perhaps it's just the gaping rabbit hole that thoughts such as 'well, if you can take over some historical figures, why not all of them...?' might lead to.
Post by: pink_belt_dan_52 on July 26, 2018, 09:37:38 am
For example, if a villainous group keeps adding layers to its network, it could end up with enough influence that the player might naturally think of it more like a civ they were at war with.
Perhaps a bit too suggestion-y, but maybe it could also work the other way: the leaders of a dying civ plotting to get revenge?
Post by: Dorfson on July 26, 2018, 09:44:30 am
Perhaps a bit too suggestion-y, but maybe it could also work the other way: the leaders of a dying civ plotting to get revenge?
I am looking forward for this villain update. It will add so much to the Legends, that is actually my favorite game mode.
From there I believe that is just a step further for more complex politics, governments and wars.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 26, 2018, 10:41:44 am
Post by: Inarius on July 26, 2018, 04:21:33 pm
Post by: DG on July 26, 2018, 11:50:34 pm
*for example create A, B and C, choose to set B as friend of A and C but make grudge between A and C for role-play purposes
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 27, 2018, 12:41:05 am
So, I'm just wondering what exactly is the "correct" behavior for these guys. Are they not meant to migrate in? Or should they revert to their original names? Or are they being cautious and are actually meant to retain their fake identities?
These poor dorfs are already highly suspicious and have no doubt succumbed to magma accidents by the hundreds so far. It's only going to get worse for them when villains start plotting and you have to chain someone up for interrogation.
For reference: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10848
Post by: Immortal-D on July 28, 2018, 11:46:41 am
Post by: Silverwing235 on July 28, 2018, 12:48:50 pm
Have you been able to do any long-term testing on stress effects in 44.12? I haven't seen a lot of bug reports on Mantis, but negative effects are still vastly overpowering positive ones, in addition to friendship-forming being exceedingly difficult. The most specific bug I know of is a Dorf's favorite food must be that specific cut (pig heart vs. pig meat). The 'lack of decent meals' thought occurs regardless of food quality, depending entirely on favorite ingredient.slight oversight there - the colour should preferably be like this and not your apparent pick, if attention from the Toad is what you're looking for.
Post by: feelotraveller on July 28, 2018, 01:58:53 pm
The most specific bug I know of is a Dorf's favorite food must be that specific cut (pig heart vs. pig meat). The 'lack of decent meals' thought occurs regardless of food quality, depending entirely on favorite ingredient.It's been this way as long as I can remember. The 'bug' report is new but the shortcoming it points to (at least as I see it - it could also be intentional :) ) is that the favoured ingredient is not properly/completely reported in thoughts and preferences. Not a general problem with the mechanic of giving positive meal thoughts; although unsatisfiable preferences do rear their head here as elsewhere. (The pathfinding involved seems a little curious though...http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171322.msg7808575#msg7808575 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171322.msg7808575#msg7808575).) The strength of the happiness is directly related to the quality of the meal - it is just that with no preferred ingredient it is multiplied by zero. ;)
Post by: Immortal-D on July 28, 2018, 02:03:12 pm
slight oversight there - the colour should preferably be like this and not your apparent pick, if attention from the Toad is what you're looking for.Graci :)
Interesting. That's the only specific one that I know of, though I think my original query stands.The most specific bug I know of is a Dorf's favorite food must be that specific cut (pig heart vs. pig meat). The 'lack of decent meals' thought occurs regardless of food quality, depending entirely on favorite ingredient.It's been this way as long as I can remember. The 'bug' report is new but the shortcoming it points to (at least as I see it - it could also be intentional :) ) is that the favoured ingredient is not properly/completely reported in thoughts and preferences. Not a general problem with the mechanic of giving positive meal thoughts; although unsatisfiable preferences do rear their head here as elsewhere. (The pathfinding involved seems a little curious though...http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171322.msg7808575#msg7808575 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171322.msg7808575#msg7808575).) The strength of the happiness is directly related to the quality of the meal - it is just that with no preferred ingredient it is multiplied by zero. ;)
Post by: GenericUser on July 28, 2018, 08:54:40 pm
1) If a spy were to say, have an ‘unfourtunate accident’, would there be any ramifications, i.e. someone being sent to find out what happened or friends trying to get revenge on the fort?
2) Will you be able to send spies to find news about the fate of your squads, if they don’t return?
3) Would a spy (or network) be able to influence an election, or the choosing of a monarch, if they hold enough sway?
4) Would spies be able to sabotage relations, or ‘convince’ two cives to fight each other?
5) Will the punishment for spies be subject to civ ethics on Treason if the crime were severe enough?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 29, 2018, 01:02:39 am
Post by: kontako on July 29, 2018, 03:45:21 am
Are you considering using the 'mount control' mechanics in possessions by poltergeists / deities or even charm spells?
Perhaps a comparison between willpowers to determine whether a command is followed or not.
Post by: Death Dragon on July 29, 2018, 03:46:20 am
"So if the mount is having an important issue of some kind, like being terrified, it won't necessarily follow your command, though they are pretty good about obeying."
Does how good the mount is at obeying depend on the rider's and/or the mount's skill, or is it more simple than that? Are there rider/mount skills or trust levels or anything?
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 29, 2018, 07:35:18 am
Post by: thvaz on July 29, 2018, 07:44:15 am
Will mounts in combat attack enemies indepedently of its rider?
Will bears be riddable by dwarves ?
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 29, 2018, 08:10:35 am
Will flying mounts be supported?
Will mounts in combat attack enemies indepedently of its rider?
Will bears be riddable by dwarves ?
Many of these questions can be answered relatively easily, bears (or animals in general) with [MOUNT_EXOTIC] or [MOUNT] would be egible for riding, as do other civs ride them when coming to siege your fortress. There are good number of animals that also fly (like giant bats as a easy dwarf example) that have those [MOUNT] tags.
If memory serves, if you make a mount in arena mode, they do attack independently but they will follow the movement of the rider i think.
Post by: Harpadarpa. on July 29, 2018, 09:25:37 am
Post by: Valtam on July 29, 2018, 09:28:17 am
1. Are mounts going to be chosen from the pool of a specific civ during adventurer creation? Say, an elf from a human civ can only access horses while an elf from an actual elven civ will get access to the whole zoo. Same with dwarves and whatever they have tamed so far.
2. Horses are known for being rather shy and skittish, so is proper war training going to be taken into account when leading them into battle?
3. Do horses or pets in general count as companions for purposes of bogeyman appearance?
Post by: Tinnucorch on July 29, 2018, 11:20:47 am
I'm just thinking that now that we can contact other civs and sites militarily, it makes sense to be able to do so in peaceful manners too (requesting peace deals, proposing trade agreements or whatever could fit right now), but maybe it's not that easy to implement/it's not worth the work right now.
Post by: thvaz on July 29, 2018, 01:41:42 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I really forgot about [MOUNT_EXOTIC]. However I guess it would entail some extra work from Toady to make them behave properly, as he specifically wrote about horses.
Post by: KingEdwarf3890 on July 29, 2018, 03:19:42 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on July 29, 2018, 03:28:35 pm
Would a mountlike system work for Guarddoggos and such too? I mean you put a thought into theyr head anyway and their training (Skill) could augment these thoughts. So a trained Warhorse could be less fearfull then a basic working horse - a war or guard dog more cautious towards starngers etc.
Also with working mounts would it be possible to get a 3 item chain to utilize the strength of those Animals in fort? A horse being guided by a dworf while pulling a lorry?
Post by: Nahere on July 29, 2018, 04:04:57 pm
If I recruit one of my former adventurers will I be able to switch control to them without retiring?
Post by: Rockphed on July 29, 2018, 04:43:57 pm
Also, I love that the eventual "command my allies" function will treat them like horses.
Post by: Slozgo Luzma on July 29, 2018, 05:01:18 pm
1) You mentioned that the player's velocity while riding a mount will be added to their attacks: will an equal bonus be applied by enemies who are, say, stabbing their pike at the horseman? Moreover, are the relative velocities of the attacker and target taken into account?
2) Will we be able to define interpersonal relationships between adventurers? For instance can our party consist of sibling, parent and child, spouses, or distant cousins? Friends or bitter enemies? By extension will adventurers have to belong to the same entity?
3) Currently, firing a bow or xbow prevents a player from doing anything for several rounds (usually resulting in them getting chopped to pieces). Will our new steeds continue to move while their riders shoot from horseback? Or will they also pause and get chopped to pieces?
4) Do you envision pets being treated more like companions in the current game who follow you around and act almost entirely on their own? Or more like members of your party that you can partially or directly control?
Post by: Buttery_Mess on July 29, 2018, 05:11:59 pm
Will we be able to ride animated undead animals, even if they haven't been tamed?
Speaking of which, will you be adding adventure mode taming alongside the ability to ride mounts?
Can mounts jump? IIRC, animal men can't, so not sure if mounts can.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 29, 2018, 05:33:47 pm
Quote
Currently, firing a bow or xbow prevents a player from doing anything for several rounds (usually resulting in them getting chopped to pieces). Will our new steeds continue to move while their riders shoot from horseback? Or will they also pause and get chopped to pieces?
And indeed, if I gallop full speed up to an enemy and take a swipe at them, will my horse just stop suddenly, or will it carry on moving past the enemy?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 29, 2018, 05:39:29 pm
Post by: Bumber on July 29, 2018, 06:44:38 pm
Since you've mentioned that mounts will wander around without direct input from the player, will we get the ability to tie them to trees and buildings and such so that we don't lose them?Well, they can't open doors, so you could build a stable or use someone's house.
Post by: KingEdwarf3890 on July 29, 2018, 08:57:44 pm
1. Will the "command your allies" feature allow you to properly equip companions without exploiting the trade screen? (IE "Hey Urist, equip that steel short sword I gave you!")
2. Will the ability to command allies extend to zombies created with Necromancy?
Post by: Death Dragon on July 30, 2018, 03:39:53 am
If your mount will keep moving intelligently while you reload after firing a weapon, I foresee horse archers being OP. Just as things should be~I bet the AI would just make them run straight into the enemies instead of backing off and staying at range. Unless maybe if the work on the new tactical combat orders stuff for companions leads Toady to implement a "stay at range" order and we could assign that to military squads in fort mode. Would be great.
Post by: 5crownik007 on July 30, 2018, 05:18:17 am
Post by: Buttery_Mess on July 30, 2018, 06:58:20 am
Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
Toady has stated in the devlog that the mount's increased speed should be transferred to the weapon during ride-by attacks. So, there's at least that.
Post by: thvaz on July 30, 2018, 07:53:35 am
Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
It should have a height advantage as well, when DF gets around it.
Post by: Unknown72 on July 30, 2018, 08:19:07 am
Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
It should have a height advantage as well, when DF gets around it.
Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
Toady has stated in the devlog that the mount's increased speed should be transferred to the weapon during ride-by attacks. So, there's at least that.
Oh boy, can't wait to get kneecapped by a goblin riding a cheetah at high speeds.
1. Will it be possible to designate certain body parts to be where magic originates on a person/creature via modding? So say, for instance, an earthbender dwarf with the magic originating from their hands and feet.
2. Also are the gods/deities/primordials/titans/ect going to be generated as physical beings too? Like, an actual being moving around physically in the world or on one of the plains and is capable of being killed and can switch between planes, ect.
3. Will Divine Metals actually have any divine properties and will they be able to be found in their related sphere Biome (if Biomes related on Spheres is actually happening)?
Post by: GenericUser on July 30, 2018, 08:57:08 am
1. If you try to hop onto a untamed mount, will they throw you off?
2. Will we be able to tame/train wild animals in the near future, for the purpose of pets or mounts?
3. Will we be able to do “Hang on and try to calm” moves on spooked mounts?
4. Will we be able to knock others off a mount, or otherwise steal one?
5. If we get thrown off a mount, will we just magically appear unharmed on the ground, or will we actually be thrown?
Post by: thvaz on July 30, 2018, 09:13:04 am
Post by: Eric Blank on July 30, 2018, 04:48:05 pm
Additional questions of my own
With riding, do we get intentionally jumping on and holding onto other, larger creatures? Can i grab a dragon and hold on for dear life while trying to stab it?
Like, you can ride a creature as a mount, but can i pounce on wild horses and shiv them? Would they be able to shake me off or attack me?
Additionally, is it possible to attack your mount while making a targetted attack? If i accidentally shank my horse, will it immediately become hostile? Is there any way i can calm down an unintelligent mount?
Post by: KittyTac on July 30, 2018, 09:53:32 pm
2 and 3 would depend on the world, but they sound quite basic, so likely yes. 1 is magic customizability, which is coming in the second myth release.Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
It should have a height advantage as well, when DF gets around it.Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
Toady has stated in the devlog that the mount's increased speed should be transferred to the weapon during ride-by attacks. So, there's at least that.
Oh boy, can't wait to get kneecapped by a goblin riding a cheetah at high speeds.
1. Will it be possible to designate certain body parts to be where magic originates on a person/creature via modding? So say, for instance, an earthbender dwarf with the magic originating from their hands and feet.
2. Also are the gods/deities/primordials/titans/ect going to be generated as physical beings too? Like, an actual being moving around physically in the world or on one of the plains and is capable of being killed and can switch between planes, ect.
3. Will Divine Metals actually have any divine properties and will they be able to be found in their related sphere Biome (if Biomes related on Spheres is actually happening)?
Post by: Unknown72 on July 30, 2018, 10:05:10 pm
2 and 3 would depend on the world, but they sound quite basic, so likely yes. 1 is magic customizability, which is coming in the second myth release.Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
It should have a height advantage as well, when DF gets around it.Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
Toady has stated in the devlog that the mount's increased speed should be transferred to the weapon during ride-by attacks. So, there's at least that.
Oh boy, can't wait to get kneecapped by a goblin riding a cheetah at high speeds.
1. Will it be possible to designate certain body parts to be where magic originates on a person/creature via modding? So say, for instance, an earthbender dwarf with the magic originating from their hands and feet.
2. Also are the gods/deities/primordials/titans/ect going to be generated as physical beings too? Like, an actual being moving around physically in the world or on one of the plains and is capable of being killed and can switch between planes, ect.
3. Will Divine Metals actually have any divine properties and will they be able to be found in their related sphere Biome (if Biomes related on Spheres is actually happening)?
Hm, so would it be possible to mod magic and have it a specific way for various mods (like MLP mods, or Avatar mods or Skyrim mods, ect?)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 30, 2018, 10:07:24 pm
Post by: KittyTac on July 30, 2018, 10:12:16 pm
Pretty sure that nobody knows how the features in the first and following magic releases will be divided except (possibly) Toady right now.We just know that the magic editor will likely be in the second arc.
Post by: KittyTac on July 30, 2018, 10:13:03 pm
Yes, in the second arc, so 4 years-ish later.2 and 3 would depend on the world, but they sound quite basic, so likely yes. 1 is magic customizability, which is coming in the second myth release.Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
It should have a height advantage as well, when DF gets around it.Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?
Toady has stated in the devlog that the mount's increased speed should be transferred to the weapon during ride-by attacks. So, there's at least that.
Oh boy, can't wait to get kneecapped by a goblin riding a cheetah at high speeds.
1. Will it be possible to designate certain body parts to be where magic originates on a person/creature via modding? So say, for instance, an earthbender dwarf with the magic originating from their hands and feet.
2. Also are the gods/deities/primordials/titans/ect going to be generated as physical beings too? Like, an actual being moving around physically in the world or on one of the plains and is capable of being killed and can switch between planes, ect.
3. Will Divine Metals actually have any divine properties and will they be able to be found in their related sphere Biome (if Biomes related on Spheres is actually happening)?
Hm, so would it be possible to mod magic and have it a specific way for various mods (like MLP mods, or Avatar mods or Skyrim mods, ect?)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 30, 2018, 10:16:19 pm
We can guess that. The only statement Toady made on the matter (that I recall) was that it was interesting enough to possibly make the first release. Besides, the editor isn't the same as modding. Toady reassured everyone about modding last month, didn't he?Pretty sure that nobody knows how the features in the first and following magic releases will be divided except (possibly) Toady right now.We just know that the magic editor will likely be in the second arc.
Very specific editing (like the above example) would probably need the fixed editor, but I imagine modding normally could achieve a lot, as it does now.
Quote
Quote from: Fatace
1. When the new Magic System comes out, will it be customiseable for modders to add other magic related things with raws?
Toady:
1. Yeah. The backbone of the current magic system, the interactions, are in the raws now, and that's not going to change. The procedural stuff will also be text-file directed. As with the procedural creatures, certain specific new cases (who knows which) might remain hard-coded as they grow into maturity, but we're intentionally trying to keep that from happening wherever possible, making sure everything 'vanilla' can be shut off (which is a requirement for the no-magic slider position at the very least), and thinking about formats which allow people to inject their own guiding data into the procedures with varying degrees of vagueness.
Post by: Unknown72 on July 30, 2018, 10:41:19 pm
We can guess that. The only statement Toady made on the matter (that I recall) was that it was interesting enough to possibly make the first release. Besides, the editor isn't the same as modding. Toady reassured everyone about modding last month, didn't he?Pretty sure that nobody knows how the features in the first and following magic releases will be divided except (possibly) Toady right now.We just know that the magic editor will likely be in the second arc.
Very specific editing (like the above example) would probably need the fixed editor, but I imagine modding normally could achieve a lot, as it does now.QuoteQuote from: Fatace
1. When the new Magic System comes out, will it be customiseable for modders to add other magic related things with raws?
Toady:
1. Yeah. The backbone of the current magic system, the interactions, are in the raws now, and that's not going to change. The procedural stuff will also be text-file directed. As with the procedural creatures, certain specific new cases (who knows which) might remain hard-coded as they grow into maturity, but we're intentionally trying to keep that from happening wherever possible, making sure everything 'vanilla' can be shut off (which is a requirement for the no-magic slider position at the very least), and thinking about formats which allow people to inject their own guiding data into the procedures with varying degrees of vagueness.
Yea this was what I was thinking of. I just thought he had said something in between then and now. I guess the better question would To what extent will we be able to Mod the Magic and Myth systems?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 30, 2018, 10:52:47 pm
Well, unless anything's changed in the past 30 days, that's your answer there, just above your question. You should also be able to add objects to the myth generator like comets and whatever, like in the prototype. Not sure what kind of impact they can have beyond textual. I expect you can link them to spheres and stuff.We can guess that. The only statement Toady made on the matter (that I recall) was that it was interesting enough to possibly make the first release. Besides, the editor isn't the same as modding. Toady reassured everyone about modding last month, didn't he?Pretty sure that nobody knows how the features in the first and following magic releases will be divided except (possibly) Toady right now.We just know that the magic editor will likely be in the second arc.
Very specific editing (like the above example) would probably need the fixed editor, but I imagine modding normally could achieve a lot, as it does now.QuoteQuote from: Fatace
1. When the new Magic System comes out, will it be customiseable for modders to add other magic related things with raws?
Toady:
1. Yeah. The backbone of the current magic system, the interactions, are in the raws now, and that's not going to change. The procedural stuff will also be text-file directed. As with the procedural creatures, certain specific new cases (who knows which) might remain hard-coded as they grow into maturity, but we're intentionally trying to keep that from happening wherever possible, making sure everything 'vanilla' can be shut off (which is a requirement for the no-magic slider position at the very least), and thinking about formats which allow people to inject their own guiding data into the procedures with varying degrees of vagueness.
Yea this was what I was thinking of. I just thought he had said something in between then and now. I guess the better question would To what extent will we be able to Mod the Magic and Myth systems?
Post by: Bimbus on July 31, 2018, 02:10:35 am
Post by: Demonic Gophers on July 31, 2018, 02:11:06 am
Can mounts jump? IIRC, animal men can't, so not sure if mounts can.Similarly, could a rider use a mount with climbing abilities to get through terrain they couldn't easily traverse on their own? While riding a giant cave spider, could you get through webs safely?
Does size matter, or can any mount carry any rider?
Post by: KittyTac on July 31, 2018, 02:20:15 am
Some animal men can jump, tested with fox-people and wolf-people.Can mounts jump? IIRC, animal men can't, so not sure if mounts can.Similarly, could a rider use a mount with climbing abilities to get through terrain they couldn't easily traverse on their own? While riding a giant cave spider, could you get through webs safely?
Does size matter, or can any mount carry any rider?
Post by: Inarius on July 31, 2018, 03:07:18 am
Post by: Death Dragon on July 31, 2018, 05:07:05 am
In DF Talk 21 Toady mentioned that this was already the case. So I assume so.
1) You mentioned that the player's velocity while riding a mount will be added to their attacks: will an equal bonus be applied by enemies who are, say, stabbing their pike at the horseman?
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 31, 2018, 07:11:45 am
Can mounts jump? IIRC, animal men can't, so not sure if mounts can.Similarly, could a rider use a mount with climbing abilities to get through terrain they couldn't easily traverse on their own? While riding a giant cave spider, could you get through webs safely?
Does size matter, or can any mount carry any rider?
Providing the creature riding listens, while aquatic/amphibious creatures can take you on a magical journey under the waves it should be a lot safer for the rider now to cross water without drowning by accident, and if the AI improves for putting the riders in charge of deciding where to take thier mounts (like across the surface of water only) the NPC riders should respond in kind.
Post by: voliol on July 31, 2018, 08:26:52 am
Can mounts jump? IIRC, animal men can't, so not sure if mounts can.Similarly, could a rider use a mount with climbing abilities to get through terrain they couldn't easily traverse on their own? While riding a giant cave spider, could you get through webs safely?
Does size matter, or can any mount carry any rider?
Providing the creature riding listens, while aquatic/amphibious creatures can take you on a magical journey under the waves it should be a lot safer for the rider now to cross water without drowning by accident, and if the AI improves for putting the riders in charge of deciding where to take thier mounts (like across the surface of water only) the NPC riders should respond in kind.
I forsee a new method of drown-training in adventurer mode, getting an amphibious mount and steering it through water. You'll probably still start drowning and get all the physical benefits of that, but as long as your mount follows your command you'll have no problem getting out of the water when you want to so you won't die from it.
Post by: Urist McSadist on August 01, 2018, 02:29:30 am
Post by: KittyTac on August 01, 2018, 02:52:19 am
Do reactions like shooting fireballs, for example have any effect on off-site battles?No.
Post by: Hapchazzard on August 01, 2018, 08:08:28 am
Post by: Inarius on August 01, 2018, 09:51:02 am
Post by: Criperum on August 01, 2018, 10:12:33 am
Post by: Descan on August 01, 2018, 12:39:41 pm
Are there any near-term plans to add in 'friendly' missions? Right now, you can either explore abandoned ruins, or raid an occupied site. Are there any, again near-term, plans to, say, send a diplomat to another site to say "Yo!" or to send your own trading caravans out to nearby retreats, towns, and fortresses?
I know there are plans to flesh out diplomacy properly, so this kind of thing will probably wait until then. I was just wondering if there might be an interim period, especially with the player-created trading caravan thing.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 01, 2018, 01:20:42 pm
This may have been asked before, but:
Are there any near-term plans to add in 'friendly' missions? Right now, you can either explore abandoned ruins, or raid an occupied site. Are there any, again near-term, plans to, say, send a diplomat to another site to say "Yo!" or to send your own trading caravans out to nearby retreats, towns, and fortresses?
I know there are plans to flesh out diplomacy properly, so this kind of thing will probably wait until then. I was just wondering if there might be an interim period, especially with the player-created trading caravan thing.
Cheekily worked question i might add, i touched upon this in my *cough cough* suggestion thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171309.msg7802601#msg7802601) slightly which as of this post is still on the front-page.
Relevant development goal references to "diplomacy" of sorts can be found there, i share your sentiment but i doubt you'll eke a reply out of the elusive Toady with any specialist wording if he can't and/or won't answer your question because he hasn't gotten around to it or its too bare bones to comment upon.
I might just add myself: Its very annoying to lose trained soldiers as forced administrators and have no recognition of them in fortress mode when they dissapear into historical background characters, it would be nice to have them as a friendly contact outside the fortress to have some interactions with.
Post by: Putnam on August 01, 2018, 03:35:43 pm
Do reactions like shooting fireballs, for example have any effect on off-site battles?No.
I think fireballs in particular might be taken into account, though more complicated interactions certainly aren't. Note that it could be a question about the magic system, in which case the answer I suspect would be something like "we will see" but I'm still interested to hear.
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2018, 05:43:46 pm
Quote from: Criperum
I have a question about FotF itself. If there was an answer on the question from one of the guys from forum and Toady just adds some thoughts about it but not answering from the beginning can the original answer be posted in FotF along with Toady's answer or at least postlinked?
Hmm. Well, I can try this, but I'm finding this takes more of my time than I can manage. If the previous method hasn't been working, I'm not sure what to do.
Quote from: zakarum
1. As your fort get more integrated in the world, how do hillocks interact with the surrounding biome right now (and in the future)? Will settling in an evil biome cause the hillocks that grow around your fort to have an undead/syndrome problem? Could they be overrun by the undead and end up with an invasion of your fort? Will you be able to send troops there to guard/fend off undead, beasts and such? Do sending troops there right now do anything?
2. Tying to the previous question, will we be able to "refuse" hillocks settlements? And if that's the case, I imagine the system would work as charts, with migrants (or citizens of your fort) asking for a chart to settle a land nearby. You could deny them because it's too dangerous, for example. How would the current count/barony system tie with the fact that hillock might not pop up because you denied them/place is too remote?
3. Conversely, how do/will hillocks interact with invaders? Could a necromancer rampage through the hillocks to try and raise a larger army to invade you? Would you be able to send patrols to try and intercept the necromancer before it snowballs in a huge army of the undead?
4. You are now moving to the "villain role", though I'm not sure this is "individual" (as in adventurer is a bad guy) or generic (goblins, "large scale bad guys"). Tied into that is slavery in the dev page, though only mentioned 3 times. Slaves right now are a rare occasion and only happen during site destruction in world gen. Since we have more assets now (hillocks) than just the fort itself, will that shift the paradigm of invaders to relate to all that? Let me give a few examples. Right now all invaders want your complete destruction, but it would make more sense for them to want your partial destruction just for their own gain.
4.1 It's pretty easy to lock yourself right now and wait for a siege to pass (ignoring future tunneling units), but wouldn't the invading army raid/plunder the hillocks while you hide (which would also make the invasion last longer, since they have supplies)? Could a siege be done for specifically to gather slaves/undead without losing a lot of lives from the invading force while they force the army (you) to be shut in your fort or occasionally harass you if you try to stray too far away from the fort?
4.2 Tying to 4.1, what kind of problems would this cause for the player? Refugees you can't deny/or deny with consequences? The need to divert resources to reconstruct hillocks? Demotion from duke/barony status (can that even happen?)? Overall anger and sadness in your fort population by the destruction caused in their neighbors or isolation of being locked in the fort?
4.3 Will invaders ever attack you not only aiming for your total destruction? Could it be that they just want to carry off the riches they can and set out? Would some slavers drive by and just take your citizens then go off?
4.4 With the upcoming villain stuff, will invaders use hillocks citizens to try and get to you? Could they occupy a site and hold it for ransom and convince a citizen to come to your fort to, let's say, pull the bridge lever when they come?
5. Will the role of "raider" get in this release? (In the sense of temporary forces, either outlaws or enemies, that come to take people or valuables, causing death and destruction but not enough to end the game)
6. Finally, are there respective plans for the stuff I asked in any arc, if it's not coming in the current cycle of hillock/villains?
1, PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7798682#msg7798682
2. You can't do that now, and I'm not really sure you should ever be able to refuse hillocks cleanly. If there is a danger, you'd somehow need to convince them, but I'm not sure how that'd work. You don't currently get to be a baron without a demonstrable barony, though certainly there should be various considerations and perhaps baronies without outside sites.
3, 6, FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7798611#msg7798611
4.1. This does randomly happen on occasion, but they do need to be more aggressive about their siege strategy.
4.2. Those sound like fine ideas; we haven't really set up a lot of the important economic connections involving hillocks, so you won't feel the most important losses for a while. Refugees are hard to do because of population limits.
4.3, 5. Kobold thieves already do this with their archer distraction, but certainly more groups could afford to do that kind of thing in more ways.
4.4. Villains should involve hillocks, yeah, and you'll potential have problem migrants.
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
1. Will villain level behaviours carry over to more legimate characters? After all Religions are not that much different then cults. Kindoms or Groups of Guards work in a way like gangs on a grander scale too or with different goals.
2. Will Players be an active part of those things. Say a cult officialy wanting to etablish a temple at your fort, Rulers demanding (not just requesting) gear or Warriors. Quests to steal/retrieve certain artefacts where your Adventurer or Fort are approached from a third party (even under false pretenses). Down to a thievesguild using your messhall as meetingplace.
3. Will you be able to enact your own devious plots? Paying people to do "evil" action like assasinating certain people or sending out some of your adventurergroups to recover certain things for you or set stuff in motion.
4. Will there be interaction between the various villian groups and persons? One cult undermining another, certain banditgroups working together and sharing information etc. ?
1. It is the hope that these systems won't end up being so specialized over time, and they'll be written with that in mind. But we'll be starting with the villains.
2. Your examples sound more like subgroups than the individual villains we'll be starting me; frameworks for entity subgroups (such as guilds, etc.) will be coming in after magic.
3. For the fort, it remains to be seen which actions will be available for your agents. Up on dev, we have assassinations as an option, for instance, so you'll be in the mix. It wouldn't be a huge step to give you access to the agreements, but we'll see which ones feel relevant for the fort when we are sure which ones we'll have.
4. They'll certainly be interacting, as they'll be operating in the same spaces with the same targets and potential agents, but I'm not sure if they'll be able to recognize each other enough at first to collaborate effectively.
Quote from: Tobihaze
QuoteThe whole concept of 'demon' will float as the sliders move; we've made some semantic charts for 'demon', 'fairy', 'angel', 'titan', 'god', 'force', 'spirit', etc., and we're trying not to be beholden to English entirely when assigning categories to supernatural creatures, as that can be really limiting.
1. If I'm not mistaken, does this mean that we could generally predict the behavior of a creature based on its tag?
2. Additionally, is the category system intended to generate creatures with certain characteristics based on the tag assigned to the entity? As in, "fairies are generally cute flying things" while "angels are divine entities". That sort of thing.
3. Lastly, if the semantic charts do influence the creature's generation, does "trying not to be beholden to English" mean new creature types? Basically, if you were to create a tag for hellenic creatures, would they conform to what we'd expect from Greek mythology? Would a youkai sit in the mountains yelling at people rather than attacking like a normal night creature? Does this create the possibility for a world to generate with sub-classes of specific creature types? For example, dividing the fairies (or anything, really) into two "courts" that don't get along and have certain traits associated with the type.
1. In a very general demons are bad sort of way? Yeah, probably. If that becomes a real problem, we might end up with a partial id/description system, which would be pretty cool for proc animals etc. anyway, when you can start to meet those. Any future language system will also consider where these names come from in the first place, and there might be multiple names.
2. I'm not sure if it's mostly reversed; sometimes we want something with a name that's evocative and has certain traits, and sometimes all of the traits come first and we are just going for a best-fit name. This might depend on the text structures guiding the process, or whether we are at the beginning of the myth or in the middle (where we have more context and guiding info generated.)
3. This is related to the "procedural dragons" issue, which we've been holding off on for a while, but which is now closer; creating mid-level guiding structures is something we're going to be attempting, and when the sliders are cranked over to proc-land, it's going to be trying to create new classes on its own, where any English naming is going to get very vague or broken, we'll see. I'm not sure how much I'll go into the various real-world cultures for names in the low-to-mid level settings; I do a bad enough job with what I have now, and doubt I can set the parameters at all correctly for other named groups farther from my experience, even if a variety of influences suggest the traits of the generated.
Quote from: Vivalas
With improvements to sieges include some sort of look at balancing the cage trap. Right now it's a very icky thing that pops up when I play, whether or not to use them or not. While of course players can just use restraint, it's nicer to have mechanical reasons. The dev page mentioned somewhere about multi-tile traps, but is there perhaps a few short-term tweaks that could make cage traps a bit less powerful? Right now if you build enough of them to match the invader cap, you really don't have to do much but open the gates and capture everyone.
Granted, I noticed in an older fort after 34.11 that invaders seem more cautious towards traps, and I can't tell if this is noted anywhere, but I noticed that attacking goblins very slowly creeped down my main trap hallway, as if suspiciously, and immediately ran out and refused to enter my fort once one got trapped. I don't know if this is a feature or bug or some other behavior, but it's in the same realm of trap balance improvements.
These address the question -
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7799830#msg7799830
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7799943#msg7799943
Regarding invaders becoming shy once they see some traps... I don't believe I did anything with that.
Quote from: arcaneArtist
A question that i thought of today: are there any plans to expand gender within the game?
currently, all characters seem to be cisgender and dyadic, with some inherently genderless beings like sponge men mixed in, so expanding on this would add in more representation and variety to the game. i could also see it slotting in with the laws and customs expansion mentioned in the Fortress Starting Scenarios framework, since some of the customs and laws (not necessarily ones added in the initial update, but maybe sometime later) could revolve around the roles and definitions of genders within a society, stuff like what it means in this society to "be a man/woman/whatever other genders this society has"
Yeah, that's along the lines of where we were thinking of trying to address gender as robustly as we can manage. I'm not sure we'll go so far as different gender roles as far as restricting rights and so forth, as I didn't want to particularly dwell on certain systemic miseries and crappy systems would inevitably be generated. We can probably have certain constructs and distinctions generated and also allow various individuals to escape easy categorization within a given system as well, or for two systems to not cross-categorize easily, though it's difficult to say how that'll turn out from here.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With the map rewrite, can we expect floating islands and castles in the sky? If so, will they move over the map? That would suggest the possibility of a segue into mobile forts and ships.
If you were going to start making DF from scratch again, what would you do differently?
These address most everything of the first part -
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7800036#msg7800036
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7800062#msg7800062
There are the lessons of the map certainly, and that'll be ongoing I'm sure. Having multiple cameras/loaded areas is another big one. The centaur issue is also something that we're not supporting well now, and I'd much prefer to have a system where I can cut-and-paste critter sections easily while still respecting all the materials, though I can't say that fits in the question exactly since I'm not sure on the best way to do it; there are many competing concerns.
Quote from: Bimbus
1. What can we expect for medical options with the upcoming Adventure mode medical improvements? Will there be doctors like in fortress mode, and/or will it be up to the player character to diagnose and heal their injuries?
2. Will the Semi/Megabeasts become more unique with the myth/magic update? Will they be procedurally generated similarly to forgotten beasts, just with more limitations so that they can still be recognized as hydras, dragons, cyclops, etc?
3. Is there any future plans for a manual way to progress time in a world, without going into/out of a fortress/adventure mode save?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7800414#msg7800414
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7800629#msg7800629
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7800635#msg7800635
2. I'm not sure it'll be exactly the same system as forgotten beasts, and there might be some that aren't proceduralized at all (and it's important to keep that ability for editor reasons if nothing else), but we have had long-standing plans to have, yeah, as above, like a "procedural dragon generator" that lands in the dragon ballpark each time.
3. As far as non-wg stuff, I'm not opposed to changing that over from the two week version, or having the calendar advance available from legends.
Quote from: UristMcEngineer
How do you protect the DF code from getting lost?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7800668#msg7800668
Quote
Quote from: FantasticDorfWill this villian arc centre on whichever 'villian' has the most interesting solution/improvement, or do you have a specific heirarchy/plan of which goals you want to follow up and improve upon from the proposed candidates?
Will you continue to improve the messengers you introduced in this version onwards for this Arc? Or are they going to be temporarily postponed until villians get a little bit more attention?Quote from: TinnucorchAre we going to see some kind of expansion of diplomacy now that we have messengers? Or will that wait until things like status, law, etc. are adressed? In the latter case, what would be the reasons?
I think a lot of the initial plans will be villain-type-agnostic, and the particular plots that might only involve necromancers and vampires would be a bonus, some of which we are hoping to attain. It's important to get everybody involved, or some worlds won't have a lot of action.
Messengers are just like everything else. There's a lot more to do with them, and we can see ways they relate to the current work. But maybe nothing will happen in the near-term. There is a lot to do everywhere.
Quote from: Lumpy
1. Can we expect some improvements regarding hostilities in adventure mode to be part of the villain arc? Banditry, in particular. I've read various comments on this forum about how in a time before time, bandits were actually aggressive and attacked you when walking straight into their encampment. Currently, they tend to ignore you, unless they are on a specific mission to rob someone, in which case they might try to rob the player, but only after nonchalantly chatting about the weather and inquiring about why one is travelling. Any chance things will get a bit more dynamic in this regard before the long wait?
2. I noticed that if bandits actually try to rob you, they start a non-lethal conflict should you refuse to submit, which is a very nice touch! Is there any chance non-lethal victories over bandits or entities in general will be kept track of by the game and tied into the reputation system, eventually? I imagine something like being able to accuse someone of banditry, then beating them up to the point where they yield, and then being able to "summarize the conflict in which you subdued Stealy McBandit", resulting in a reputation gain without being considered a killer.
3. As you probably noticed by now, I am especially fond of the adventure mode part of the game. I am aware that this would probably fall into the economy arc and is not a priority, but is there any chance coins will become stackable before the long wait, and paying tavern keepers with currency will become an option? This is admittedly a minor issue, but I just have to ask, for I seemingly have a coin fetish going and tend to carry ridiculously large quantities of them with me.
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7802604#msg7802604
In particular, the nonchalant chatting of the robbers is part of the 'interview' process, where the other bandits are getting into position around you, at which point they drop the topic and switch over to demands. I suppose this should have better exposition, where they explain what they just did or something, along the lines of "ha ha you're surrounded" or whatever, with the demand.
We do have some dev plans about better id checks and alarms and so forth, when we improve 'hideouts' for the villains (which includes the bandit camps.)
It would be reasonable if it could properly credit the end of a non-lethal conflict, yeah.
Stackability is non-trivial and will very likely not be handled for a good long while. I'm not sure why tavern keepers can't be paid, on the other hand; that seems more like a bug, though I'm likely forgetting something about the process.
Quote from: scourge728
Is the Golden Salve intended to be given some use during the magic stuff?
I'm really not sure about vanilla in general; there's this idea of having editors and building up a pack-in vanilla universe alongside DF as a kind of tutorial, or something, but the part of that where Zach and I are coming up with a fixed universe is also a very non-DF way of doing things (editors for modders are awesome, of course.) It seems like ultimately I shouldn't be focusing on that sort of thing, but will probably still be doing something with it.
Quote from: iceball3
As you implement magical mechanics, how do you think you will do with mundane engineered equivalents? Will they come along later with the functional reworks to their overarching systems, done before, or as we go along?
For a couple of examples, based on what I've heard is going to come when mythgen has come to pass (That is to say: mythgen is something I've heard that is likely already planned to do what I'm listing, I'm just listing the mundane counterparts we don't have yet):
-Magic that immobilizes and moves the targets vs mundane restraints and dragging units, which would likely come with the justice rework.
-Magic that treats and cures ailments vs functional mundane apothecaries and knowledge-system implemented medicine.
-Magic that bends the mind vs functional coercion, interrogation and mechanical feedback on social situations from the character's social skills.
And so forth. I'm not suggesting these particular mechanics get implemented, just asking where they sit in relation to release priority their likely-magical-counterparts that'll come during the mythgen releases.
That aside though, thanks for the new update, Toady! It's been a world of fun keeping up with the dramatic new changes you're doing! That makes me think of one more question.
How does it feel now that the sphere of influence of the player's fortresses are now really starting to stick their fingers to the local world? I understand that the "bringing the world alive" updates were both more ambitious, and basically necessary before these new changes came to exist, but seeing those foundations come together in really cool player-usable mechanics must be pretty exciting, yeah?
For magic vs. mundane counterparts, it's really a case-by-case situation, since some of the mundane counterparts are complicated and some of them are already in the game.
Player influence on the world. Oh, yeah, certainly. It's nice to finally get to some of the player-facing sides of the mostly invisible work we've been doing, and the 'c' screen keeps calling us back for more.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
So, given it seems you can encounter non-questors taking the identity of criminal, and it seems they might not always actually have a criminal record, what even is the justification for them being labelled criminals?
I'm immediately thinking up the mental image of them calling themselves that a being basically some sort of fantasy-realm punk subculture thing.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7805208#msg7805208
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7806894#msg7806894
Quote from: iceball3
Civilizations have an effective distance before they're not considered contacts for you in dwarf fortress mode. Does sending raiding parties extend their sights a bit when considering retaliation, or are you effectively immune to their influence at such distances?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7807241#msg7807241
Quote from: iceball3
Is formation-specific AI something that will be included in this pass with the party-scale adventure mode situation, or is that fiddling for another arc? That is to say, in the general sense of players and NPC commanders issuing orders to have their squads stand with them in combat in some particular manner.
Party based systems would be glorious to have formation-style combat with, but I can see reasons why it might not be presently considered.
I suspect I won't get to that, but this is another pressure point for it as we continue to not do combat changes more generally.
Quote from: thvaz
Will characters in a party created by the player have the same needs as a single character has currently, like food and water needs?
They don't at this very moment, but that's just because I haven't decide what to do yet and that's the default behavior. I'd rather have them use food and water, probably, and use it automatically when you aren't controlling them, but I'm a bit worried that if they can't obtain food and water on their own, it'll be a little too annoying and lead to micromanagement until we get them, say, operating in the market independently when you wander through it.
Quote from: Kadzar
With the ability to make multiple starting characters in adventure mode, will we still get a game over when our designated party leader dies, or can we continue playing with others in the party?
Right now you can TAB into one of your other party members or follow the quit prompt (leaving your party in the same limbo your companions normally end up in when you die.)
Quote from: ZM5
Regarding the creation of adventurer parties, will the other created adventurers have the same restrictions in terms of available race?
What I mean is, if a civ only has dwarves available as adventurers, will we only be able to start dwarves from there, or will the "main" adventurer have the dwarf-only restriction, but other party members will be able to be humans, elves, etc. as mercs or friends of the main adventurer?
It's the same separate process for each character, then you choose which town they start in from the collection of starting towns available between all the characters you make. It doesn't really try to explain why they are there -- presumably if you make a bunch of hearth people from different sites, the two weeks which passed on the calendar was them all deciding to get together some place. We'll flesh out the nature of the party's start situation over time.
Quote from: Beag
1. In the monthly report you said you would be adding more to what villains do in the game such as vampire cults. In this villain fleshing out update will player adventurers be able to join vampire cults and do missions for them with the possible reward of getting to drink a vampire in the cult's blood?
2. Will player vampires be able to start their own vampire cults and recruit NPCs to serve them? Will they be able to promote their cultists to full vampires by offering them their blood in this villain fleshing out update?
3. Will bandit groups give player lieutenants quest types different than what a hearth person would get in this villain fleshing out update?
4. Finally will criminal groups finally do more than just hang out underground in this villain fleshing out update? Maybe steal some stuff at night?
1,2. That would be reasonable, but it remains to be seen which exact aspects of the special-case villains are highlighted. I'm not going to commit to anything on this score until I can see what can be pulled off.
3. We're hoping so, yeah.
4. There's not much to steal, but the leaders of those groups are in the villain lists now, and they generally have several underlings available in the towns where they live. Hopefully they can be differentiated from bandits somewhat.
Quote from: falcc
Will your adventurer be able to talk about how much they love their pets? How much can you interact with a pet? Can I show off my cool pet to someone I think will like it, and will vermin haters be like "ack, gross! get that outta my face?" Can I give my vermin pet stuff to chew on, put it in barrels, or put it down? Will we be able to put animals in wooden cages on our property now? If you made an animal whose younger forms were shoulder pet sized but as an adult is bigger than you, which of those sizes is it going to think about in terms of its mechanics? Can you tag a pet for both vermin and mounts?
Unrelated, what about pits and dark fortresses make them unsleepable?
I've modded my goblins to be more sociable but their new taverns still don't sound very inviting since you have to stumble through the trenches drunk to sleep. Although that is a very Dwarf Fortress experience.
On small/large animals, Rockphed: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7808465#msg7808465
He he he, they can't yet talk about their pets or do... much of anything social with them. However, if you drop a hateable pet, and it wanders over near somebody, that likely will trigger the vermin thought, which is a negative thought people can mention. They can't be fed, but again, once they are on the ground, they will likely be able to eat items (using the dwarf mode vermin code.) I haven't done anything with cages or chains, as they aren't common in adv mode.
The sleep/travel restriction is some older vanilla-linked hard coding on site type. We'll root all of that out over time.
Quote from: Orangefriedegg
Will you add fireworks, cannons, hand cannons, rocket arrows or other gun powder based inventions at any point?
I'm not particularly opposed to it, though I think that stuff holds a special place when it comes to what people would want to be able to turn on and off.
Quote from: ArmokGoB
In the upcoming adventure mode update can you throw vermin pets as weapons like you can with the normal vermin you find with 'L'ook?
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7808678#msg7808678
Quote from: DwarfToys
These ended up being questions with random braindumps attached. Don't mind that, I enjoy rambling.
1. After magic, etc, are there plans for technological advancement over time?
I'm not really thinking of the time period the typical fortress / adventure starts or ends in, but after many ages of the world pass. Maybe the age of the dwarves comes, and with the forgotten beasts and mythical style creatures dead we end up with more complex machinery, digging machinery, composite materials, etc. You can spend more time on research when you're not dealing with insane fire breathing winged snails, I've been told.
Humans have the shortest life spans and might advance medicine due to that, tactics in war, weapons like everyone else, energy generation because the dwarves are no longer around to teach their now-mythical free-energy machines nor would they have anyway...
The elves might dominate and refine their love of trees into a potentially dangerous genetic engineering type scenario... grow trees harder than slade and nobody can cut them down easily, but the plant life itself starts becoming a threat to normally treeless biomes, water supply, etc in exchange for practically indestructible grown items.
Maybe one race doesn't end up dominating, but partners with another.
Clowns (if they're still around) might "civilize" and invent an intentionally obfuscated legal system and fast food. Or they might have sat around watching for long enough to realize that if the dwarves all need alcohol to get through the working day, they might eventually need far worse things to get through the day.
Maybe it isn't new technology at all... ever wonder where everything from the dwarven atom smasher ends up? Well, it's approaching critical mass in 3 other dimensions long forgotten about. The inhabitants are very angry about this lump of neutron-degenerate matter about a year away from collapsing into a singularity and are doing something about it... Welcome to the age of myth 2, electric boogaloo.
Those are just random examples. Half the technology invented might be useless in a given world, or developed in response to a problem that stopped existing by the time it was complete. Maybe it's still magic fueled, and magic is scientifically proven.
2. A much simpler one... Gunpowder brings a lot of other kinds of fun, but just reading about history, what about these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow, not necessarily with the poison?
They're not a massive technological leap from the complex mechanisms + crossbows the dwarves already have, and don't really do much except make citizens either more or less of a liability during a siege. Hand them out and hope they help and don't start shooting other dwarves for fun, or just let the military use them as a shorter distance but faster-firing crossbow...
The 1400 cut-off keeps it all reasonably simple for me. Not worrying about genetic engineering or neutrons, stuff within the timeframe is on the very large table.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Toady, will this upcoming version have much more inclusion of pets for other NPC's to be using? ((like soldiers & groups dispatched from sites riding upon horses, or people's personal pets becoming involved in fights with their masters))
<Followup post> about histfigures already being mounted upon animals or surrounded by war animals like bandits in the world already with a clear relation of ownership more than a question about mounted raiding, which toady has replied to answers to in the past in respects for being mounted upon animals having certain advantages over difficult terrain etc.
We'll have more supporting variables in place but I haven't committed to more broad use of pets and mounts yet. There are a few book-keeping complications in sites that aren't experienced by your party. It might all get sorted out when I handle adventurer-with-pet retirement or villain pets, not sure. If we do take the villain pet route, there'll be that. Mounted raiders/etc. is an additional matter.
Quote from: Dame de la Licorne
In fort mode, I've noticed that the legendary blue of a peasant and legendary magenta of a noble aren't used as non-legendary "base" colors for any other civilian profession (though they are used for high level sword- and hammerdwarves). Do you have plans for these colors for new or improved civilian classes in the future?
Witty: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7810360#msg7810360
So yeah, these are old reserved colors that have become less and less useful for those purposes as those uses predate everybody important flashing. It would make a lot of sense now to use the civilian (light) magenta and the (light) cyan for new purposes.
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Quote from: Shonai_DwellerYou mention that only members of your starting party will be directly controllable in the upcoming adventurer additions (besides in turn based combat, presumably). What's stopping you from allowing direct control of histfigs who join your party later? Is it just the interactions you'd have to add ('Hi Dad!'), or is there something complex you need to do before we can take control of the destinies of 'real people'?
Oh, just noticed "equipment pages". That's gorlak sized helmets without the need to make them in a fortress first, right? Woot!Quote from: FataceAfter creating the party and adventuring out, will we be able to switch between newly recruited members?
I could be missing something obvious, but no, there's nothing stopping us except the existing relationships and positions, as you suggest. The position part is pretty big; taking over a civ-ruler would just be silly now, like they were possessed and became a wanderer. I mean, not that that's a bad thing for game-game fun-time, but it cuts against what we are trying to do enough that it hasn't been a priority. That will continue to change as we go. Certainly doing something like taking over an existing bandit gang is well within reach now, and might be pretty fun.
In particular, control over your later-added companions is more of a roleplaying thing; they aren't meant to be as loyal and we wanted to leave some room there. Once we quantify loyalty a bit (part of this release!), we might have them cross a threshold where you can induct them into party status, and then you'd be able to TAB over to them freely. You might not want to do this if you are trying to roleplay a villain and don't care to have your loyal subordinates as part of a party, or otherwise want to maintain the integrity of your original group.
Quote from: Fatace
With the introduction of better adventure mode party mechanics, has the idea of the possibility to spar with a party member to help gain levels in combat skills come around, and will this be possible even if you recruit someone after making the party?
It's a reasonable idea.
Quote from: KittyTac
Would you consider releasing a version of your standalone myth generator prototype, like you showed off at GDC? I imagine that people would appreciate something to check out during the Big Wait.
I'd prefer not to do this. I think it both has the bar too high in some places (effect lists, at least for release one, probably) and too low in others (most everything else.) It's not reflective enough of what I want to do, and I don't want expectations to coalesce around it overmuch.
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2018, 05:44:05 pm
Quote from: DudeeDew
1) Better lineage system and name generation. So that families will be more distinguishable, family members in the world trying to live in the same buildings, and, of course, all of them having same last name. Haven't seen this in planned updates, will it be implemented at some point?
2) Will it be possible to have some expanded family-level interaction? For example, greedy heirs giving you quests to assassinate the head of the family (as a subgroup of assassination quests mentioned in /dev), or possibility to gain influence with some people by helping their relatives (since losing it so that relatives seek revenge is already mentioned in /dev). Or even having a wife (or one-night stay) in adventure mode, birthing your adventurer's kid who is playable after growing up?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7810934#msg7810934
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7811082#msg7811082
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7811151#msg7811151
Families will possibly begin to matter with the villain stuff. It is an angle we are looking at, but I can't commit to anything for this arc until I get it done, as there'll be lots of complications.
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Quote from: GenericUserWith the addition of parties, will we be able to start as a performance troupe from setup or will we have to do so after the adventure starts?
It would be really cool to have a sort of traveling band spreading dwarves music across the world.Quote from: DGWhen creating multiple characters for Adventure mode will they have initial relationships between themselves similar to a Fortress mode starting 7? If so, will it be random, fixed, or customizable*?Quote from: Slozgo LuzmaWill we be able to define interpersonal relationships between adventurers? For instance can our party consist of sibling, parent and child, spouses, or distant cousins? By extension will adventurers have to belong to the same entity?
Both of these are in the possible-for-this-release notes (starting entity, starting relationship grid), but I don't know if the time will be there. Definitely things we are looking forward to doing as we make party starts more and more interesting.
Quote from: squamous
1. Will more than one person be able to sit on a single mount if the mount is big enough?
2. Will riders of mounts be able to control the abilities of the mounts? For example, would a rider of a giant armadillo, for example, be able to have the creature retract into its shell at will, or would the creature only do that on its own?
3. Will we see mounted soldiers in adventure mode if we stumble across a travelling army?
4. Will there be any changes to mounted unit AI in battle? Will someone on horseback with a bow try to stay away from melee soldiers, if they don't already? Will flying units do the same?
1. That's not supported right now, though the wagon has three 'riders' (this includes the horses!), so it isn't way out of the realm of possibility.
2. I don't currently have commands aside from movement, but these are possibilities; it would be cool if the breadth of the pet's powers became accessible by command, either through training/skill or by default, whether they are being ridden or not.
3. It isn't a high priority for this time, but it'll be more possible once this is done, as it'll understand specifically what's going on in the army mount-wise, at least for historical figures.
4. I doubt it, unless a mounted party feels super broken, which is possible.
Quote from: Dr. Melon
With regards to agents/conspiracy/intrigue in the recent devblog, will players in Adventure mode be susceptible to being "turned" by plotters? E.g, the usual "troubles" dialogue could have falsified information if you ask an agent, to get you to unwittingly attack a target of the plot by describing them as a "bandit" or similar?
It's not likely to happen in this fashion, as false information isn't something we can do yet (outside of identities.) That said, it might be possible to influence the greedy player, for instance, though money doesn't matter nearly enough yet. An ideologically sympathetic player probably wouldn't consider themselves a villain, but that's how that works. It remains to be seen which conversations we attempt, as that would be the additional effort needing to be spent here.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Will ethics bound torture methods have any further development on the basis of helping uncover conspiratorial villian plots in the latest development log or are you putting them aside for later use?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7812978#msg7812978
I don't foresee particularly diving into fortress mode modding here, especially because it shouldn't generally provide useful information and we can't do the real-life thing of it providing various nonsense they think you want to hear (because we don't yet support false information outside of identities.)
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, to expand on what you said in the devblog, if your mayor, your Captain of the Guard your bookkeeper and all your temple dancers are secretly plotting the downfall of civilization, what kind of Fun can we expect? Or is this 'hidden fun stuff' on a social level that we'll just have to discover for ourselves?
There may be some details in the logs as I do it, but this does seem like a rare opportunity to withhold some details, heh.
Quote from: Harpadarpa.
So when you mention a network, does that imply that each agent can have multiple agents of their own? Ie Urist McMastermind might have three lieutenants, and each of those might have two underlings. If so, or even if the mastermind gets caught in old or unrelated charges what does this mean when the Mastermind is caught? What happens to the remaining agents? Do they continue with the plot on their own terms, or do they abandon the quest out of self preservation?
Yeah, that's right; as for what happens to decapitated plots, it really depends on what the plot and motive are, and whether it makes sense for the agent to either obtain the benefits as if they were the higher-up or whether their master is replaced (as might happen in an organization.) The default would likely be abandonment, as the data structure would be hanging, but network repair is also part of the update, and that'll be taken as far as we can go with the time we have.
Quote from: GenericUser
Will we have the option join an existing villainous plot, say if we proved our loyaty to a villain?
This seems quite possible but not guaranteed. We're going to start with companions-as-agents (that is, you are the top villain), but with a few conversation options and the existing villainous tasks you'd be able to become a low/mid-tier agent as well.
Quote from: Witty
As a followup to my previous question on underground cave rivers, will the terrain rewrite hypothetically allow for subterranean civilizations? The current iteration of subterranean animal people don't work too well as of the latest version, but they were pretty bare bones to begin with. Could this allow for them to be a little closer to normal civs if only in terms of being able to build sites underground?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7813769#msg7813769
So yeah, the closer you make them to regular civs, the more likely they are to happen with the map rewrite, and I'll be striving to remove the differentiation between above and below ground in terms of supporting robust sites and army pathing and so forth.
Quote from: Beag
1. What do you think will be the full extend of possible rewards a villainous player could get for working for villains as their agent in their schemes in the upcoming villain fleshing out update? Like how many possible rewards can you list off the top of your head, please tell me.
2. If you are an agent of someone else can you still continue the branching chain of command by enticing with money or positions some subordinate agents to work for you to continue your master's plans?
3. Could being an agent for someone be a possible way to gain a civ level position as stated as one of the pre myth and magic release candidates?
4. Can you give me some examples of what agent missions would be like?
We don't know that you can be a mid-tier villain, as stated above, so the notion of adventurer rewards is not necessarily in play at all. But in all cases you'd be able to create your own networks, and that doesn't immediately depend on what is going on above you (or to the sides/etc.; the networks don't need to be simple directed trees.)
If we do get to player rewards, the potential to gain a position is here, as that'll be one of the possible inducements for others; as is often the problem, the position's responsibilities might not be accessible to you (e.g. bookkeeping.) The problem with the abstract tribute rewards is that without the economic stockpiles, the items don't actually exist. There is some potential for items to be brought to your adventurer site, but that is by no means guaranteed.
We've talked about assassinations, kidnappings, smuggling out artifacts, acquiring subordinates, acquiring animals, building gangs, and abuses of various authority once a position holder is compromised (whether that's diplomatic responsibilities or some sort of bookkeeping issue; unclear in some cases what we can do), as well as more specialized tasks like acquiring corpses for raising and non-corpses for vampire matters. From closer up, especially as somebody actually doing these things, there'll need to be several new conversation options, especially as they relate to particular relationships and pressure points. That said, until it's mentioned as done in the dev log, I wouldn't count on a given mission type. There's going to be some practical limitations based on what I can do over the next stretch of time.
Quote from: pink_belt_dan_52
You mention that you're using agreements instead of an entity for villain networks; I wondered if there was any mechanism planned for switching between the two?
For example, if a villainous group keeps adding layers to its network, it could end up with enough influence that the player might naturally think of it more like a civ they were at war with.
Perhaps a bit too suggestion-y, but maybe it could also work the other way: the leaders of a dying civ plotting to get revenge?
We had considered that at the very least they might step up to the level of having a name like a bandit gang, yeah, but there's a lot of overhead there so we wanted to make sure we had a lightweight option for a lot of the petty crap going on throughout the world. I'm not sure what we'll get to.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, there's a bug, or perhaps unintended 'feature' right now in which hist-fig citizens of your civ are out working as spies when they get migrated to your fortress (often dragged along by a family member). They retain their fake name and profession (dead give away as no other migrants have visitor types like peddler, criminal, etc) but otherwise act normally (but annoyingly retain their fake profession name even when in the military).
So, I'm just wondering what exactly is the "correct" behavior for these guys. Are they not meant to migrate in? Or should they revert to their original names? Or are they being cautious and are actually meant to retain their fake identities?
These poor dorfs are already highly suspicious and have no doubt succumbed to magma accidents by the hundreds so far. It's only going to get worse for them when villains start plotting and you have to chain someone up for interrogation.
If they are being dragged in from an assignment, they should stay out. If they aren't turning their identities off after returning home, and then migrating in, the bug would be the identity remaining.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Have you been able to do any long-term testing on stress effects in 44.12? I haven't seen a lot of bug reports on Mantis, but negative effects are still vastly overpowering positive ones, in addition to friendship-forming being exceedingly difficult. The most specific bug I know of is a Dorf's favorite food must be that specific cut (pig heart vs. pig meat). The 'lack of decent meals' thought occurs regardless of food quality, depending entirely on favorite ingredient.
On food -
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7818346#msg7818346
Long-term stress testing is more practically player-based; and we can continue to see what people are experiencing. I've seen a lot of reports that generally the situation is better, overall. The friend issue is still there, and we have various ways forward on that which we'll get to before the magic wait. I haven't seen a specific formulation of the current state of negative effects; there are categories which should help (since a lot of negative memories are now grouped and leave space for positive ones), but perhaps the negative categories are still winning out?
Quote from: GenericUser
1) If a spy were to say, have an ‘unfourtunate accident’, would there be any ramifications, i.e. someone being sent to find out what happened or friends trying to get revenge on the fort?
2) Will you be able to send spies to find news about the fate of your squads, if they don’t return?
3) Would a spy (or network) be able to influence an election, or the choosing of a monarch, if they hold enough sway?
4) Would spies be able to sabotage relations, or ‘convince’ two cives to fight each other?
5) Will the punishment for spies be subject to civ ethics on Treason if the crime were severe enough?
1) The current idea is that they need to keep an enemies list (which might just be rep, though we don't have this for forts outside of taverns and 'death trap' status and war +/- calcs), at the very least so they know if a fort or adventurer is 'pesky' or 'meddlesome' and needs to be dealt with. I'm not sure if this'll involve the same sort of tracking you get with merchants, where their safety and integrity of belongings is sort of tracked against the baseline when they entered, or through some other means.
2) The rumor process there isn't very robust yet. Once it can actually tell you properly, I'm not sure you'll need a spy. Right now it doesn't know outside of historical events, which aren't the same as rumors.
3) We want position-based shenanigans, but since there are no actual time-taking systems in place right now (the election and succession are instantaneous), it's unclear what we'll actually get. As with all things, having future stuff like the status/etc. release would be nice, but soooomething has to be put in first. So it might be very abstract how it works.
4) This is a reasonable possibility.
5) For a dwarf that has been very bad? It seems to fit the bill, though just as in real-life, the definition and conditions of treason are subject to debate. It isn't clear in the game what the ethic means since we haven't had to deal with it yet.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
With mounted adventurers, are we close to seeing fortress dwarves mount up on whatever's handy to meet their mounted invaders in a glorious clash? Or is that still a way off?
We haven't given it any particular consideration for this time. Fantasy dwarves never seemed like avid horse riders and I'm still not sure what we'll end up with there. Zach's stories often involve donkeys.
Quote from: kontako
Are you considering using the 'mount control' mechanics in possessions by poltergeists / deities or even charm spells?
Perhaps a comparison between willpowers to determine whether a command is followed or not.
The system will be waiting when we get there, anyway. I'm not sure what'll end up being most convenient. It depends on the type of command.
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Quote from: FataceIf pets are possible.. will there be a update to let adventure mode players tame creatures?Quote from: Death Dragon"So if the mount is having an important issue of some kind, like being terrified, it won't necessarily follow your command, though they are pretty good about obeying."
Does how good the mount is at obeying depend on the rider's and/or the mount's skill, or is it more simple than that? Are there rider/mount skills or trust levels or anything?Quote from: 5crownik007Will riding a mount give any combat advantages? In the Mount & Blade games, riding your mount gives speed to your weapon swing and bonuses to your attack damage, as well as making yourself difficult to hit by infantry. Will there be a mount-riding skill where if your skill is too low, your mount may turn tail and run in combat?Quote from: Buttery_MessSpeaking of which, will you be adding adventure mode taming alongside the ability to ride mounts?
There aren't any skills like riding at this point, though I agree there should be. We do have the level at which a pet is tamed, from the fort mode animal system, but since your pets all start fully tamed in adv mode and you can't tame new ones yet, I haven't integrated that stuff.
On speed -
Buttery_Mess: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7819417#msg7819417
It doesn't currently help you evade except in that you have a higher chance of being completely out of range of an attack when it gets to its attack frame if you are moving quickly.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Q: Will mounts be required to be assigned war animals, pets or (in fortress mode) will they be able to be used interchangebly with any fortress member rather than a specific individual?
I haven't done anything with fortress mode mounts.
Quote from: thvaz
Will flying mounts be supported?
Will mounts in combat attack enemies indepedently of its rider?
Will bears be riddable by dwarves ?
Flying mounts shoooould work. I haven't tried one yet, but they are available (to elves, generally), and the commands don't restrict to land-based movement, especially if you use the shift/control altitude controls.
Mounts will attack adjacent enemies, but they won't approach without a command.
There would need to be bears tamed by the civ for a dwarven adventurer to have access to them. I haven't done anything with fort mode.
Quote from: HarpaDarpa.
Since you've mentioned that mounts will wander around without direct input from the player, will we get the ability to tie them to trees and buildings and such so that we don't lose them?
All of your pets follow you around like companions when you aren't riding them, so it hasn't been necessary. They can wander a bit when you ride them without controlling them, but that isn't very common.
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Quote from: Valtam1. Are mounts going to be chosen from the pool of a specific civ during adventurer creation? Say, an elf from a human civ can only access horses while an elf from an actual elven civ will get access to the whole zoo. Same with dwarves and whatever they have tamed so far.
2. Horses are known for being rather shy and skittish, so is proper war training going to be taken into account when leading them into battle?
3. Do horses or pets in general count as companions for purposes of bogeyman appearance?Quote from: Buttery_MessWill mounts act like buddies, protecting us from bogeymen?
1. Yeah, it uses the civilization in question.
2. Not yet, though all of these considerations are important and will be good guidance over on suggestions as we go.
3. Hmm, I think so, unless I particularly checked the pet flag. I don't recall if that's the case. Probably didn't do that.
Quote from: KingEdwarf3890
So with the new adventurer starting party system, I have to wonder how things that force hostility between party members would work between members of the starting party. For example, party member A is a werelion and party member B is a vampire. If A in human form walked in on B during a feeding, would they be hostile to one another? And if so, could you still switch control between them? Same goes if they were out adventuring together and the full moon rose causing A to lion out on B. Or, alternatively, what if the player(playing as one of the two) decided to attack the other? I'm just throwing this out there cause I really like the idea for the new system but want to make sure it won't bug out at times like this.
Ha, I guess it depends what you mean by bug-out here, since at some point it's up to you to roleplay conflicts you create yourself if you switch control. Your created party members won't just take anything and willingly allow you to hack them to pieces, but you can also swap into their bodies. I don't think this is a problem particularly. It's odd, but so is controlling multiple people directly, and that doesn't mean it won't be fun to do. If you get into a situation where everybody hates each other, you'll probably just have to fight it out until only one remains
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
Would a mountlike system work for Guarddoggos and such too? I mean you put a thought into theyr head anyway and their training (Skill) could augment these thoughts. So a trained Warhorse could be less fearfull then a basic working horse - a war or guard dog more cautious towards starngers etc.
Also with working mounts would it be possible to get a 3 item chain to utilize the strength of those Animals in fort? A horse being guided by a dworf while pulling a lorry?
Yeah, there's no reason why party tactical commands wouldn't eventually work on trained animals. I don't even have them for party members yet, but I'm hoping to get there and maybe everybody gets to come along for the ride.
I don't have any particular plans for changing how the dwarf mode leading works, but we don't even have pulled carts there.
Quote from: Nahere
Will all members of a starting party have to come from the same entity or will multicultural starting parties be possible?
If I recruit one of my former adventurers will I be able to switch control to them without retiring?
You can start your party from all over. I haven't integrated old retired adventurers into new parties when they join, but that might happen as an option before the release.
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Quote from: Slozgo LuzmaYou mentioned that the player's velocity while riding a mount will be added to their attacks: will an equal bonus be applied by enemies who are, say, stabbing their pike at the horseman?
Currently, firing a bow or xbow prevents a player from doing anything for several rounds (usually resulting in them getting chopped to pieces). Will our new steeds continue to move while their riders shoot from horseback? Or will they also pause and get chopped to pieces?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerAnd indeed, if I gallop full speed up to an enemy and take a swipe at them, will my horse just stop suddenly, or will it carry on moving past the enemy?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7820299#msg7820299
So there's the multiple attack interface, which is very clunky but allows continuous commands in the case of melee attacks. Both to get around that, and to allow a broader range of actions, we've been considering another form of command which urges your mount on at a speed in their current direction. Hopefully that'll be enough to solve initial issues without needing larger rewrites of other features (not that archery doesn't need a larger rewrite.)
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Quote from: Buttery_MessWill we be able to ride animated undead animals, even if they haven't been tamed?
Can mounts jump? IIRC, animal men can't, so not sure if mounts can.Quote from: Demonic GophersSimilarly, could a rider use a mount with climbing abilities to get through terrain they couldn't easily traverse on their own? While riding a giant cave spider, could you get through webs safely?
Does size matter, or can any mount carry any rider?
I don't think undead mounts will work currently. Soulless creatures cannot accept commands, even without the issue of non-tame creatures not being mountable. It'll require a better understanding of magic to get that sort of thing working when it should.
Jumping, Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7820254#msg7820254
As with the armadillo retraction above, it's reasonable to extend the command set beyond simple movement, and it would be cool to have both jump and climb options. I don't have that yet. It has been a decade, so I don't recall how webs work vs. giant spiders... it's possible that part will actually work.
Size doesn't currently matter, I think, though it's possible riders are added to weight (maybe not though, if carried dwarves don't slow people down, as that also uses the rider system.)
Quote from: KingEdwarf3890
1. Will the "command your allies" feature allow you to properly equip companions without exploiting the trade screen? (IE "Hey Urist, equip that steel short sword I gave you!")
2. Will the ability to command allies extend to zombies created with Necromancy?
1. I haven't done anything like that yet.
2. It isn't part of the spell, no, and souls are currently required.
Quote from: Unknown72
1. Will it be possible to designate certain body parts to be where magic originates on a person/creature via modding? So say, for instance, an earthbender dwarf with the magic originating from their hands and feet.
2. Also are the gods/deities/primordials/titans/ect going to be generated as physical beings too? Like, an actual being moving around physically in the world or on one of the plains and is capable of being killed and can switch between planes, ect.
3. Will Divine Metals actually have any divine properties and will they be able to be found in their related sphere Biome (if Biomes related on Spheres is actually happening)?
To what extent will we be able to Mod the Magic and Myth systems?
1: It's a fine enough way of doing things; it's unclear when that axis of detail will be going in though, and there's a lot that needs to be supported specifically bit by bit, so it's just an issue of time. Given the size of the release and how much we're going to have to adapt to circumstances as we go, I would assume 'no' on any given unpromised feature just to be safe, but there will be many, many features that do make it in. Once the dev logs start rolling in, we'll have more information.
2,3, KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7820146#msg7820146
followup, Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7820184#msg7820184
Quote from: GenericUser
1. If you try to hop onto a untamed mount, will they throw you off?
2. Will we be able to tame/train wild animals in the near future, for the purpose of pets or mounts?
3. Will we be able to do “Hang on and try to calm” moves on spooked mounts?
4. Will we be able to knock others off a mount, or otherwise steal one?
5. If we get thrown off a mount, will we just magically appear unharmed on the ground, or will we actually be thrown?
1+5. Just not an option currently.
2. Near future? Probably not.
3. Nope.
4. I don't recall what happens currently with mounted people and ground charging; perhaps they are disallowed. I haven't changed anything. You'd have to find somebody mounted first anyway, which won't necessarily be easy.
Quote from: Eric Blank
With riding, do we get intentionally jumping on and holding onto other, larger creatures? Can i grab a dragon and hold on for dear life while trying to stab it?
Like, you can ride a creature as a mount, but can i pounce on wild horses and shiv them? Would they be able to shake me off or attack me?
Additionally, is it possible to attack your mount while making a targetted attack? If i accidentally shank my horse, will it immediately become hostile? Is there any way i can calm down an unintelligent mount?
No; that feels more like wrestling should be involved, but there's an area in between we haven't explored.
I think you can probably attack your own tame horse, since it just checks proximity for targeting, though I haven't tried it. If do start a fight for some reason, I don't think there's anything you can do to mend relations.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
Do reactions like shooting fireballs, for example have any effect on off-site battles?
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7821013#msg7821013
Regarding Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7821460#msg7821460
Way back when there was a simple 'fire breath' tag, it provided a strength bonus and even checked against fire immunity, but as interactions became more complicated, the calculation switched over to a perpetual to-do comment in the strength calc. This'll probably have to be tackled for the magic release to make much sense.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
Are there plans to ever implement a sort of an "Interesting start date" feature? To clarify - if, during worldgen, the game detects that some kind of interesting, massive upheaval is going to happen in the world (or at least, in some specific part of the world) the player would get the choice to stop worldgen there and start in a region of the world defined as most important for said scenario. This would allow for players to start playing a few years before stuff like huge extraplanar invasions, a large change in the magic system of the world (with it's accompanying effects), huge wars, the unleashing of an ancient evil, etc. Hence, players would actually be able to play the stereotypical D&D band of heroes out to save the world, or just to merely watch history unfold from the front seat.
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7821206#msg7821206
Criperum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7821226#msg7821226
Yeah - when it comes to magical stuff, things where we can look at important dates or cycles or long-term rituals that are coming to fruition, we've said we'd like to give that a shot. More mundane stuff is more difficult, though it could detect, say, the starts of wars or first contact situations, which'll matter when those are more interesting.
Quote from: Ispil
When it comes to dwarven friendships, why not use some modern research into the topic (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/how-to-make-friends/565742/)?
I'm open to changes; suggestions are a good place for specific ideas!
Quote from: Descan
Are there any near-term plans to add in 'friendly' missions? Right now, you can either explore abandoned ruins, or raid an occupied site. Are there any, again near-term, plans to, say, send a diplomat to another site to say "Yo!" or to send your own trading caravans out to nearby retreats, towns, and fortresses?
I know there are plans to flesh out diplomacy properly, so this kind of thing will probably wait until then. I was just wondering if there might be an interim period, especially with the player-created trading caravan thing.
Not particular near-term plans no. As stated above with messengers, it's not entirely off the table, but the table is also quite full. Sending off trading caravans will almost certainly wait, though there's an off-chance some sort of villain demand might yield that ability. We don't have any number of missing elements required to make that work as a peaceful feature, though we could wing it somehow using the new abstract tribute percentages (which you'd be trading for, somehow.)
Post by: Tinnucorch on August 01, 2018, 09:11:21 pm
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerSo, to expand on what you said in the devblog, if your mayor, your Captain of the Guard your bookkeeper and all your temple dancers are secretly plotting the downfall of civilization, what kind of Fun can we expect? Or is this 'hidden fun stuff' on a social level that we'll just have to discover for ourselves?
There may be some details in the logs as I do it, but this does seem like a rare opportunity to withhold some details, heh.
I can't help but to press a little more on the matter above:
1- Can we expect from agents/inflitrators, at any point of the developement, to act as if they had knowledge of the consequences of their actions? Or asked in another way: what tools will these characters have to identify appropriate ways of acting? Will we see things like some traitor opening our gates to an invading army, trying to pull whatever lever that should not be touched or realeasing dangereous creatures from cages? What about all at the same time (like, aiming to create a diversion)?
2- Leaving aside practical examples, what limits do you expect these tools actually will have for this next release?
Even if you decide to keep things for discovering by ourselves, thanks in advance for taking the time to read this.
Post by: Nahere on August 02, 2018, 01:46:25 am
Post by: Death Dragon on August 02, 2018, 06:37:04 am
Hmm. Well, I can try this, but I'm finding this takes more of my time than I can manage. If the previous method hasn't been working, I'm not sure what to do.Do what you prefer, Toady. If you think it takes too much time, it's not necessary to do cause people can just look through the thread on their own if they really care about it.
Post by: Criperum on August 02, 2018, 09:51:48 am
Post by: KittyTac on August 02, 2018, 10:08:08 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on August 02, 2018, 11:05:41 am
Quote from: Random_DragonSo, given it seems you can encounter non-questors taking the identity of criminal, and it seems they might not always actually have a criminal record, what even is the justification for them being labelled criminals?
I'm immediately thinking up the mental image of them calling themselves that a being basically some sort of fantasy-realm punk subculture thing.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7805208#msg7805208
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7806894#msg7806894
That...doesn't really do anything to answer the question. My point is that I have encountered NPCs who don't APPEAR to be artifact hunters, but have nonetheless assumed an identity as a self-labelled criminal, nor do they end up with an association with local criminal gangs.
The two responses you linked to basically amounted to "nah they're definitely questing, either that or herp derp we don't know what the fuck you're on about'" so citing them kinda does nothing useful.
EDIT: To clarify, I was referring specifically to adventure mode by the way. Though admittedly it is hard as hell in adventure to get an artifact hunter to reveal their objective, so it may be that all "criminals" in adventure mode and the ability to oust them is just lacking.
Post by: recneps on August 02, 2018, 01:19:40 pm
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on August 02, 2018, 01:39:52 pm
With future world generation changes making it more fantastic - less Earthlike - will things such as randomized biomes be possible? e.g. could you have a more erratic world that has fiery swamps -associated with Fire, Muck, and Peace- full of unicorns and satyrs, or a forest -associated with Healing, Darkness, and Defomority- that periodically has healing rain in addition to ogres and procgenned monsters?
That is pretty much the plan yes, unless you mean something more specific about it that I'm missing. Some bits from the dev notes and dftalk on the subject:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
Core94, RANDOMIZED REGIONS AND THEIR FLORA/FAUNA, (Future): The current good/evil regions should be scrapped and replaced by a system that aligns a region to varying degrees with a set of spheres. In this way you could end up with a desert where the stones sing or a forest where the trees bleed, with all sorts of randomly generated creatures and plants that are appropriate to the sphere settings. It's important that randomly generated objects be introduced to the player carefully during play rather than just being thrown one after another to allow for immersion, though there's also something to be said for cold dumping the player in a world with completely random settings, provided they can access enough information by looking/listening and having conversations, etc. Requires Core92.
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html
Rainseeker: [3]Let's talk about spheres for a second. Are the zombies, skeletons, undead and such; are they going to appear only in the undead region sphere now? Or will they come in other areas too.
Toady: It depends on one of those things we were talking about, like do undead have souls, and what is the undead? If it's somebody combing partially back to life then it could be any sphere that's related to death or rebirth even; it's kind of weird to have the sphere of rebirth have undead things but it's possible.
Rainseeker: They're good zombies, maybe.
Toady: Yeah, they're good zombies, with little fairy hats and stuff ... whatever a fairy hat is. But then there's the notion of just animating a corpse, and that's the purview of death or if brooms and stuff are also moving around then it's more of a regular magical thing. But there's also the notion of having some kind of spirits from the underworld populate the body, then that could be any kind of evil.
Ampersand: There's also another concept of it being a disease that is passed between individuals.
Toady: Yeah, there's the viral zombie model ... [and] there's also the radiation zombie model I guess. So the viral thing, I don't know ... are they dead? Or are they ...
Capntastic: Their brain's just messed up by like ...
Toady: Yeah, viruses. I guess what the 28 Days Later model is it's just sort of a viral rage thing, but they aren't actually dead; is that correct? And then they starve to death. So any of those is fair game as they come up. Now, the undead that'll come in at first; I still have evil regions in this release so things will probably be the same as they were before, and then as I move over to sphere-based regions then at first it's going to be just kind of a death thing I guess, and to make them fairly common those will just be common areas. The whole idea of undead in general is going to be generalised to the notion of a curse, and that could just be some random sphere thing: there could just be a bunch of fire dear, and fire elk, and fire chipmunks and the fire man; that's kind of the cheesy thing that you'd expect out of the game after a while. Of course we can get more sophisticated but you don't start there.
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html
Threetoe: Okay, so the second question comes from King Mir: 'You've stated previously how the good and evil regions are ultimately going to be replaced by sphere-aligned regions. Recently you added a lot to the evil regions; how have these changes affected your future plans? Are you going to put as much work into every sphere? Will some spheres be much more distinct than others, or will you just stick with good and evil?'
Toady: We did add a lot of undead and blood rain and mists and things floating around in the evil regions because we were just on our continuing night creatures drive, to get through those. It hasn't really affected the long-term plans. We still plan to diversify what the regions look like. The spheres ... talking about them specifically, like sphere-regions, is ... when you say, 'Will some be more distinct than others?' there are spheres like 'trade', or something like that, where because that's such a civilized concept ... there are probably going to be some spheres that simply aren't appropriate for regions, and a sphere is really just an idea, or a concept, so if you want to make one region more musical, or fiery, or evil, or torture-based, or darker, these different concepts ... that's really what we're getting at, that we wanted to have a strong sense of flavoring to the regions that sets the atmosphere but doesn't just go along this linear scale of good or evil, that allows things to be more diverse. So in a sense just adding stuff to the regions moves us along the way there. We haven't really started that project yet, but I it's still something that I think we're planning to do.
Post by: recneps on August 02, 2018, 01:55:30 pm
Post by: Unknown72 on August 02, 2018, 02:00:16 pm
Post by: Tinnucorch on August 02, 2018, 02:05:38 pm
So on the case of these deities/titans/ect being physical, would it be possible for one to migrate/petition to join a fort or integrate itself into a civ in some form phsyically (like becoming king/queen of the dwarves) or even start up their own civ with themselves at the head of it?That last part about supernatural beings as civ leaders is already in play with goblin civs. So I guess it should be only a matter of expanding that feature.
Post by: Rockphed on August 02, 2018, 02:45:57 pm
So on the case of these deities/titans/ect being physical, would it be possible for one to migrate/petition to join a fort or integrate itself into a civ in some form phsyically (like becoming king/queen of the dwarves) or even start up their own civ with themselves at the head of it?That last part about supernatural beings as civ leaders is already in play with goblin civs. So I guess it should be only a matter of expanding that feature.
For a while there were supernatural leaders of human civs. I don't know if they ever managed to become leaders of dwarf or elf civs, but we have seen Elf dwarven queens, so it might be doable.
Post by: lovesword on August 02, 2018, 02:58:07 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on August 03, 2018, 08:50:44 am
Is it possible that the villain update might bring a unique purpose to the venoms by allowing schemes to involve a poisoning of a target or the fort's food supply?I'd say probably not. More interactions with poison will come eventually for sure, but Toady already made so many plans for the next updates that he's probably just gonna go with the easiest way to implement assassinations, which would be without poison.
I don't think poisoning an NPC site's food supply would really do anything before the economy update. Maybe spies will be able to sabotage player forts by messing with farm plots, but who knows. Toady is probably not gonna tell us cause he seems to want to surprise us with the negative consequences of spies.
Post by: SpeardwarfErith on August 04, 2018, 08:45:24 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 04, 2018, 09:28:00 am
To what extent do worldgen/mission battles currently take gear into account? I understand that it's done at least in some basic sense, but does it just compare skill/quality/material or does it do some more complex calculations? For example, will a dwarf with a copper hammer have a good chance against an armoured opponent like he does in fort mode or will he lose because copper is a "bad" metal? And if I mod some overpowered 1-shot-kill weapon, will that be reflected in the battles or will it treat it like every other weapon?When the raid system was introduced, equipment and skills started being taken into account. So a goblin with a copper helmet won't fare well against a dwarf with a steel axe in a duel.
However, tactics skill of the leader and terrain is also taken into account, so 10 goblins lead by a tactical master, will probably defend fairly well against 10 steel axe wielding dwarves lead by an incompetent buffoon.
I expect Toady can explain the exact calculations if that's what you need.
Post by: FrankVill on August 04, 2018, 09:54:31 am
This thinking carries me to another cuestion; are or will are relationships mechanics and villain mechanics tightly united? Or do they got separated treatment in DF?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 04, 2018, 10:50:39 am
For next release, will do concept villain influence in dwarf relationships? Currently, in fortress mode is frequent that there were friendship or love between dwarfs, but it is difficult seeying grudge or hostility among themselves. I believe that is a good oportunitue for exploring or adding some negative traits to relationships.Grudges are reasonably frequent among the starting 7, at a guess somewhere about once every two embarks (and I've certainly seen two grudges among them, and have one in my current fortress).
This thinking carries me to another cuestion; are or will are relationships mechanics and villain mechanics tightly united? Or do they got separated treatment in DF?
Personal conflict would be a reason for a villainous plot, but I would expect most plots being based on goals other than personal relations (gaining power/wealth/...). Killing the cousin you don't like on the way to power would just be a fringe benefit (or a side project).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 04, 2018, 05:35:54 pm
Loyalty, love and respect will be used (added?) to determine how much influence an agent can have over someone. Urist isn't likely to murder his mother for the sake of a bookkeeper's position. But he might happily betray some drunk he has a grudge against for a shiny amulet.For next release, will do concept villain influence in dwarf relationships? Currently, in fortress mode is frequent that there were friendship or love between dwarfs, but it is difficult seeying grudge or hostility among themselves. I believe that is a good oportunitue for exploring or adding some negative traits to relationships.Grudges are reasonably frequent among the starting 7, at a guess somewhere about once every two embarks (and I've certainly seen two grudges among them, and have one in my current fortress).
This thinking carries me to another cuestion; are or will are relationships mechanics and villain mechanics tightly united? Or do they got separated treatment in DF?
Personal conflict would be a reason for a villainous plot, but I would expect most plots being based on goals other than personal relations (gaining power/wealth/...). Killing the cousin you don't like on the way to power would just be a fringe benefit (or a side project).
Post by: scourge728 on August 04, 2018, 10:09:14 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on August 04, 2018, 11:09:52 pm
Post by: recneps on August 04, 2018, 11:10:03 pm
How's life?Pretty good.
Post by: KittyTac on August 04, 2018, 11:27:17 pm
Do raids take into account creature size/growth? Cave dragons are the size of foxes until they're 1000 year old, after which they become huge killing machines. Will my fox-sized cave dragons fight like full-grown cave dragons off map?Actually, they get gradually bigger and bigger, so a 999-year-old cave dragon will be of almost identical size to a 100-year-old cave dragon.
Post by: a52 on August 05, 2018, 12:35:26 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 05, 2018, 03:52:16 am
Having experienced quite a lot of rather exotic ones, and being a programmer myself, I'm really passionate about bugs in Dwarf Fortress whenever I get back into it. What is the best way that I can help you fix them? Is posting on Mantis kind of the limit of what is useful for you/possible for me, or are there tools I could use to narrow down causes?Toady doesn't know what to do with crash dumps, so the best is a Mantis report with as much relevant details as possible, and frequently a save that demonstrates it, in particular if the save is from just before the error is generated, so the error generation process can be followed (unfortunately, it's frequently the case that something went corrupt a lot earlier, so all he gets out of a save is "Yes, the data has been corrupted somehow").
The less time Toady needs to reproduce the error to examine it the more time he's got to do useful stuff (such as fixing the problem), and I wouldn't be surprised if a bug report that looks easy to reproduce is picked over one that requires more grinding to set up when everything else is equal.
Post by: TheFlame52 on August 05, 2018, 09:45:59 am
Are you sure that's how that works? I've never seen anything stating that and I can't find anything on the wiki.Do raids take into account creature size/growth? Cave dragons are the size of foxes until they're 1000 year old, after which they become huge killing machines. Will my fox-sized cave dragons fight like full-grown cave dragons off map?Actually, they get gradually bigger and bigger, so a 999-year-old cave dragon will be of almost identical size to a 100-year-old cave dragon.
Post by: ZM5 on August 05, 2018, 10:04:44 am
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:6000]
[BODY_SIZE:1000:0:15000000]
in the raws, so they do end up growing and growing until reaching the maximum average size at 1000 - they wouldn't be 6000 size at one point and then spontaneously 15000000 the next just because they're 1000 years old. Regular dragons work the same way.
Post by: TheFlame52 on August 05, 2018, 10:08:10 am
Post by: Putnam on August 05, 2018, 06:14:24 pm
Are you sure that's how that works? I've never seen anything stating that and I can't find anything on the wiki.Do raids take into account creature size/growth? Cave dragons are the size of foxes until they're 1000 year old, after which they become huge killing machines. Will my fox-sized cave dragons fight like full-grown cave dragons off map?Actually, they get gradually bigger and bigger, so a 999-year-old cave dragon will be of almost identical size to a 100-year-old cave dragon.
Okay then, I've never heard that before. I'll edit my question.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Dragon#Dragon_Size
Post by: Descan on August 06, 2018, 01:27:29 am
Not that I would recommend it or think it's a good idea, I'm just curious if you ever actually had thought about it, and what those thoughts were.
Post by: KittyTac on August 06, 2018, 01:54:13 am
Have you ever considered chopping the title down to just "Dwarf Fortress"?It's a pretty good idea. Since Armok is completely disregarded, and will stay like that forever.
Not that I would recommend it or think it's a good idea, I'm just curious if you ever actually had thought about it, and what those thoughts were.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 06, 2018, 01:57:53 am
Have you ever considered chopping the title down to just "Dwarf Fortress"?Ha. It does sound like in recent interviews like they're sightly embarrassed at the title..
Not that I would recommend it or think it's a good idea, I'm just curious if you ever actually had thought about it, and what those thoughts were.
Of course, in the grand scheme of things, a "final" version looks like it will contain plenty of non-dwarf, non-fortress focused play too. How about "Slaves to Toady One - A simulator".
But "Dwarf Fortress" is kind of cooler.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 06, 2018, 03:39:27 am
Have you ever considered chopping the title down to just "Dwarf Fortress"?It's a pretty good idea. Since Armok is completely disregarded, and will stay like that forever.
Not that I would recommend it or think it's a good idea, I'm just curious if you ever actually had thought about it, and what those thoughts were.
Could well just be [FORTRESS] since the dwarves aren't static either.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 06, 2018, 03:46:00 am
Or fortresses...Have you ever considered chopping the title down to just "Dwarf Fortress"?It's a pretty good idea. Since Armok is completely disregarded, and will stay like that forever.
Not that I would recommend it or think it's a good idea, I'm just curious if you ever actually had thought about it, and what those thoughts were.
Could well just be [FORTRESS] since the dwarves aren't static either.
Post by: KittyTac on August 06, 2018, 04:00:35 am
Post by: Putnam on August 06, 2018, 04:03:47 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 06, 2018, 05:28:57 am
Post by: KittyTac on August 06, 2018, 05:36:41 am
[[The game that makes you lose really well]]With the magic arc, the hostility of worlds will be settable. So not applicable.
Post by: Renarin21 on August 06, 2018, 05:48:57 am
1. In the prototype Myth Generator that was shown a while back, many of the innate magic systems involved the user drawing a Force that their race was linked to into themselves to use magic. Could an innate magic user use the Force as "fuel" for other magic outside of their innate capabilities?
2. Could another wizard seek to use objects/powers/whatever linked to the Force to manipulate it while it is "inside" of an innate wizard?
3. Would magic/soul eating critters be more attracted to innate magic users? More so when they are actually using their powers?
4. Kind of an extension of 1 and 2, could an innate wizard fuel other people's magic using a force?
5. Would a character channeling a force innately experience properties like weaknesses based on the force, outside of corruption? (like how were beasts have vulnerabilities while transformed)
6. Could a character try to find ways to draw power out of divine artifacts and whatnot, in a similar fashion to 1, 2, and 4?
7. Could supernatural devices be altered/corrupted?
8. If a race has some form of ancestor worship or something like that, and they are descended from a precursor race, could spirits of the precursor race show up alongside "normal" ancestors?
9. If people have innate magic from a supernatural ancestor, would those powers be self-contained, or would you have (at least in some situations) powers channeled from, and therefor reliant upon, the ancestor?
10. Would innate powers from an ancestor be based on what the ancestor can do, or would new powers be generated? (based on the mixing of the bloodlines or whatnot)
11. Could innate powers from an ancestor be extracted from blood or other bodily bits?
12. Would magical bloodlines be considered "blessed" or "cursed" based on the origin of the powers? (that guy is descended from a god we don't like, shun him!)
Edit:
b1. Will "sleeping" creatures be able to act during myth gen without/before waking up. Like their sleeping consciousness can do stuff outside the body, possibly with or without them realizing it?
b2. In the myth gen, the concept of souls as a microcosm was unveiled. That made me wonder, could the "souls" of some supernatural creatures (demons, spirits, ect.) function as "mini" planes of existence? I understand it would be a while before traveling to other planes isn't in the near future, but could there still be situations where a creature can store things like other souls, or even physical objects within themselves?
b3. Related to b2, could some creatures/races be created as an embodiment/manifestation of a given plane of existence?
Post by: KittyTac on August 06, 2018, 06:03:47 am
Some questions relating to the Myth Update:Most of these would depend on the world, but most sound quite basic, so maybe.
1. In the prototype Myth Generator that was shown a while back, many of the innate magic systems involved the user drawing a Force that their race was linked to into themselves to use magic. Could an innate magic user use the Force as "fuel" for other magic outside of their innate capabilities?
2. Could another wizard seek to use objects/powers/whatever linked to the Force to manipulate it while it is "inside" of an innate wizard?
3. Would magic/soul eating critters be more attracted to innate magic users? More so when they are actually using their powers?
4. Kind of an extension of 1 and 2, could an innate wizard fuel other people's magic using a force?
5. Would a character channeling a force innately experience properties like weaknesses based on the force, outside of corruption? (like how were beasts have vulnerabilities while transformed)
6. Could a character try to find ways to draw power out of divine artifacts and whatnot, in a similar fashion to 1, 2, and 4?
7. Could supernatural devices be altered/corrupted?
8. If a race has some form of ancestor worship or something like that, and they are descended from a precursor race, could spirits of the precursor race show up alongside "normal" ancestors?
9. If people have innate magic from a supernatural ancestor, would those powers be self-contained, or would you have (at least in some situations) powers channeled from, and therefor reliant upon, the ancestor?
10. Would innate powers from an ancestor be based on what the ancestor can do, or would new powers be generated? (based on the mixing of the bloodlines or whatnot)
11. Could innate powers from an ancestor be extracted from blood or other bodily bits?
12. Would magical bloodlines be considered "blessed" or "cursed" based on the origin of the powers? (that guy is descended from a god we don't like, shun him!)
Post by: Death Dragon on August 06, 2018, 06:46:45 am
The update has been planned for such a long time and spawned quite the sizeable amount of questions and speculations which probably built up pretty high expectations in people.
Would you say you mainly develop DF for yourself or for the players or is it an even split?
Post by: Blaze_1711 on August 06, 2018, 07:21:15 am
You guys are geniuses by the way, you basically created a framework for multiple digital realities' simulation disguised as a game - it's basically a RPG/sim/strategy/god game toolset - all in one. You could have history classes about any single world's stories.
Post by: KittyTac on August 06, 2018, 08:34:33 am
Are you ever afraid of disappointing people who see the Myth and Magic update as a "you can do literally anything!" game similar to what happened with games like Spore and No Man's Sky?The thing is, quite a bit of people outside of the fandom already think that DF is a "GAEM WHARE U CAN DO LITERLLAY EVRYTHING!1!!!11!!1!11!". The fandom does not see it as one. We know that Toady fulfills all of his content promises. We lose nothing.
The update has been planned for such a long time and spawned quite the sizeable amount of questions and speculations which probably built up pretty high expectations in people.
Post by: KittyTac on August 06, 2018, 08:37:10 am
How do you guys not get absolutely overwhelmed with the amount of ideas and contents this game has/will have? I'm developing my own roguelike and I get really overwhelmed with my own ideas.Presumably the right mindset and a slow development pace to think everything through.
You guys are geniuses by the way, you basically created a framework for multiple digital realities' simulation disguised as a game - it's basically a RPG/sim/strategy/god game toolset - all in one. You could have history classes about any single world's stories.
Post by: Bumber on August 06, 2018, 03:33:43 pm
Have you ever considered chopping the title down to just "Dwarf Fortress"?I kind of suspect the title was intentionally chosen to be overly dramatic.
Not that I would recommend it or think it's a good idea, I'm just curious if you ever actually had thought about it, and what those thoughts were.
Post by: Tinnucorch on August 06, 2018, 05:26:56 pm
Here he almost admit that (just after he explains where the idea of the game came to be):Have you ever considered chopping the title down to just "Dwarf Fortress"?I kind of suspect the title was intentionally chosen to be overly dramatic.
Not that I would recommend it or think it's a good idea, I'm just curious if you ever actually had thought about it, and what those thoughts were.
https://youtu.be/CcrXFOjdzRk?t=10m50s
Post by: a52 on August 12, 2018, 03:07:17 pm
Of course, there would have to be ways for players to make sure certain dwarves were the least likely to leave -- perhaps dwarves that were very happy or made lots of money for the fortress would be much more likely to stay.
Post by: iceball3 on August 12, 2018, 08:10:04 pm
Hey, wait, actually...
I understand that reconciling fort mode and adventure mode having different time scales is a current ongoing project that is being considered tentatively. However, I just noticed that there might be an issue with it, particularly concerning the Economy update on the menu some few years for now. Do you happen to have any ideas on how to short term or long term approach an issue that will likely happen: that adventure mode food consumption would be much more rapid than dwarf/legend mode?
With an economy update, the cost of things like food would have much more significant implications on survival, populations, and the like, and it might force a rough and sudden transition in how adventure mode approaches foodstuffs and similar manners of consumption that don't make the 1:1 translation between modes.
One short term solution I can think of when the times come is for adventure mode to use smaller portions, so that an adventurer can eat at least one meal a day while fort mode dwarves can eat their two-months worth of foodstuffs in one sitting, as happens in dwarf mode currently.
Post by: PlatinumSun on August 13, 2018, 01:00:16 pm
I was told by KittyTac it might not possible to toggle (on thread in suggestions about governments) and said I should ask here.
EDIT: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171643.0
LINK TO THREAD
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 13, 2018, 01:35:53 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 13, 2018, 05:30:16 pm
If Toady adds in complicated fortress politics. I hope what ever Toady does theres always a toggle for the player to not have to deal with elections and dwarves uprising. Im fine if all other civs have all that but I dont want to be forced to deal with it. So as long as it can be toggled I dont mind.1) I think it's best that you're clear which part of development you're talking about when you ask your question (in lime green, like this) Suggestions thread on government types is just a suggestion thread.
I was told by KittyTac it might not possible to toggle (on thread in suggestions about governments) and said I should ask here.
EDIT: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171643.0
LINK TO THREAD
2) Most everything in Df is moddable and will continue to be so. So disabling certain behavior should be possible.
3) Starting Scenarios Arc (in which politics are going to be covered) isn't going to even start development for at least 5 years probably. Chances are the details haven't been thought about in detail yet.
Post by: Rockphed on August 13, 2018, 05:43:24 pm
Post by: KittyTac on August 13, 2018, 10:30:57 pm
If Toady adds in complicated fortress politics. I hope what ever Toady does theres always a toggle for the player to not have to deal with elections and dwarves uprising. Im fine if all other civs have all that but I dont want to be forced to deal with it. So as long as it can be toggled I dont mind.
I was told by KittyTac it might not possible to toggle (on thread in suggestions about governments) and said I should ask here.
EDIT: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171643.0
LINK TO THREAD
Lime green'ed for you.
If Toady adds in complicated fortress politics. I hope what ever Toady does theres always a toggle for the player to not have to deal with elections and dwarves uprising. Im fine if all other civs have all that but I dont want to be forced to deal with it. So as long as it can be toggled I dont mind.
Post by: KittyTac on August 13, 2018, 10:32:01 pm
However, I'm fairly sure that if you mod out elections, there won't be elections elsewhere.If Toady adds in complicated fortress politics. I hope what ever Toady does theres always a toggle for the player to not have to deal with elections and dwarves uprising. Im fine if all other civs have all that but I dont want to be forced to deal with it. So as long as it can be toggled I dont mind.1) I think it's best that you're clear which part of development you're talking about when you ask your question (in lime green, like this) Suggestions thread on government types is just a suggestion thread.
I was told by KittyTac it might not possible to toggle (on thread in suggestions about governments) and said I should ask here.
EDIT: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171643.0
LINK TO THREAD
2) Most everything in Df is moddable and will continue to be so. So disabling certain behavior should be possible.
3) Starting Scenarios Arc (in which politics are going to be covered) isn't going to even start development for at least 5 years probably. Chances are the details haven't been thought about in detail yet.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 13, 2018, 11:36:39 pm
Yeah, the general path of development is for your fortress to not act any differently from any other fortress. You'd only be able to turn off politics worldwide, the fortress won't ever exist in a vacuum. You'd end up with no migrants, no invaders, no visitors, no spies if that happened. Fine for big building projects of course (besides lack of migrants).However, I'm fairly sure that if you mod out elections, there won't be elections elsewhere.If Toady adds in complicated fortress politics. I hope what ever Toady does theres always a toggle for the player to not have to deal with elections and dwarves uprising. Im fine if all other civs have all that but I dont want to be forced to deal with it. So as long as it can be toggled I dont mind.1) I think it's best that you're clear which part of development you're talking about when you ask your question (in lime green, like this) Suggestions thread on government types is just a suggestion thread.
I was told by KittyTac it might not possible to toggle (on thread in suggestions about governments) and said I should ask here.
EDIT: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171643.0
LINK TO THREAD
2) Most everything in Df is moddable and will continue to be so. So disabling certain behavior should be possible.
3) Starting Scenarios Arc (in which politics are going to be covered) isn't going to even start development for at least 5 years probably. Chances are the details haven't been thought about in detail yet.
But I was going to save that for Toady to answer as there's probably subtle differences between player sites and other sites that need to stay even in the long-term.
Post by: ZM5 on August 14, 2018, 09:16:59 am
Post by: Demonic Gophers on August 14, 2018, 01:39:01 pm
Villains can potentially infiltrate your fort by recruiting citizens, and even officials, but will masterminds also be able to arise within the fort on their own initiative? Could a sneaky, ambitious dwarf establish and build a world-spanning conspiracy right under the player's nose, or will the network always start off-site (unless created by the player, of course)?
Post by: Egan_BW on August 14, 2018, 02:16:01 pm
Post by: Descan on August 14, 2018, 04:56:48 pm
Will all villains have "evil" motivations, or will some of them mean well? If so, will they still use the same tacky names as normal villains?To build off this: If the good folks aren't going to use those kinds of names... CAN they? Please?
Post by: SpeardwarfErith on August 14, 2018, 08:36:08 pm
Post by: KittyTac on August 16, 2018, 07:34:08 am
Post by: Tinnucorch on August 16, 2018, 10:08:12 am
What is your opinion on balancing DF?
Despite being a simulation, I think we can guess that Toady wants the players to have challenges... at least if they wish so (because what fun would have fantasy worlds without the epic struggles of the peoples that inhabit them?). Also, in the recent devlog post about the new party creation system he explicitily talks about the possibility of setting "sensible limits" to avoid players abusing it so it seems pretty clear that he doesn't ignore game balance as it has been said elsewhere.
Post by: KittyTac on August 16, 2018, 10:17:40 am
Waiting for Toady himself to say something.What is your opinion on balancing DF?
Despite being a simulation, I think we can guess that Toady wants the players to have challenges... at least if they wish so (because what fun would have fantasy worlds without the epic struggles of the peoples that inhabit them?). Also, in the recent devlog post about the new party creation system he explicitily talks about the possibility of setting "sensible limits" to avoid players abusing it so it seems pretty clear that he doesn't ignore game balance as it has been said elsewhere.
Post by: Death Dragon on August 16, 2018, 11:33:00 pm
What is your opinion on balancing DF?You might wanna elaborate on that question, otherwise Toady is probably just gonna give a general answer like that he does care about balancing in some ways, but cares less about it in others.
In one of the last Q&As I asked him about the stress balance and he said something about how he tries to find a good middle ground, so it's not like he doesn't care about balance totally.
Post by: KittyTac on August 16, 2018, 11:59:13 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 17, 2018, 12:26:50 am
What is your opinion on playing historic figures? Should there be a setting for that?Wasn't that covered last month?
--edit
Well, only in part, it seems. But I'm pretty sure there are Dftalks and other fotf replies on the subject too.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You mention that only members of your starting party will be directly controllable in the upcoming adventurer additions (besides in turn based combat, presumably). What's stopping you from allowing direct control of histfigs who join your party later? Is it just the interactions you'd have to add ('Hi Dad!'), or is there something complex you need to do before we can take control of the destinies of 'real people'?
Toady:
I could be missing something obvious, but no, there's nothing stopping us except the existing relationships and positions, as you suggest. The position part is pretty big; taking over a civ-ruler would just be silly now, like they were possessed and became a wanderer. I mean, not that that's a bad thing for game-game fun-time, but it cuts against what we are trying to do enough that it hasn't been a priority. That will continue to change as we go. Certainly doing something like taking over an existing bandit gang is well within reach now, and might be pretty fun.
In particular, control over your later-added companions is more of a roleplaying thing; they aren't meant to be as loyal and we wanted to leave some room there. Once we quantify loyalty a bit (part of this release!), we might have them cross a threshold where you can induct them into party status, and then you'd be able to TAB over to them freely. You might not want to do this if you are trying to roleplay a villain and don't care to have your loyal subordinates as part of a party, or otherwise want to maintain the integrity of your original group.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 18, 2018, 06:42:22 am
Quote
(Under 'Trader' development goals:) Should depend on trade/tribute relationships as well as available professions and sprawl sites
Is this currently realised in the applicable loot tables for active historical/ahistorical crafts-people on site, or is the production of tribute & resources simulated by site type or other behind the scenes mechanics?
Im aware that locality to resources via sprawl heading 'upstream' as it were to the nearest linked settlement occurs, but directly to the context to the question with a example would the player be able to influence the 'exports' of a occupied (directly) tributary by artificially boosting the economy by sending more craftsmen from the fortress of a particular trade to not only increase site population density but also productivity. (other factors like possibly bugged occupation migration & appealing/unappealing site types to your entity restraining growth otherwise to non-histfigs sent there) 10+ skilled furnace operators & weaponsmiths to recieve scheduled annual tribute shipments of weapons & metal bars from local ores.
The fact that pressers don't economically contribute by giving press-cakes to traders is another issue entirely but with every dwarf worker adding in a contribution to the pool of a site holding's resources maybe one day it might be relevant.
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 18, 2018, 03:53:34 pm
What are the current 8 short and long-term memory categories?
Social embrassment and violence are two, I guess.
Post by: Beag on August 18, 2018, 05:23:38 pm
2. Can you give us some examples of how a player adventurer would go about rooting out or joining an evil plot?
3. If player adventurers will be able to lead armies will they be able to gather their civilization's army at any time or only when they are at war with another group?
4. Will player adventurers ever be given quests by their lords/ladies to be part of an army led by someone else and if so how will traveling as part of an army work?
Post by: KittyTac on August 18, 2018, 10:29:25 pm
I want a more in-depth reply about rulers and priests and such, rather than just a few sentences.What is your opinion on playing historic figures? Should there be a setting for that?Wasn't that covered last month?
--edit
Well, only in part, it seems. But I'm pretty sure there are Dftalks and other fotf replies on the subject too.Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You mention that only members of your starting party will be directly controllable in the upcoming adventurer additions (besides in turn based combat, presumably). What's stopping you from allowing direct control of histfigs who join your party later? Is it just the interactions you'd have to add ('Hi Dad!'), or is there something complex you need to do before we can take control of the destinies of 'real people'?
Toady:
I could be missing something obvious, but no, there's nothing stopping us except the existing relationships and positions, as you suggest. The position part is pretty big; taking over a civ-ruler would just be silly now, like they were possessed and became a wanderer. I mean, not that that's a bad thing for game-game fun-time, but it cuts against what we are trying to do enough that it hasn't been a priority. That will continue to change as we go. Certainly doing something like taking over an existing bandit gang is well within reach now, and might be pretty fun.
In particular, control over your later-added companions is more of a roleplaying thing; they aren't meant to be as loyal and we wanted to leave some room there. Once we quantify loyalty a bit (part of this release!), we might have them cross a threshold where you can induct them into party status, and then you'd be able to TAB over to them freely. You might not want to do this if you are trying to roleplay a villain and don't care to have your loyal subordinates as part of a party, or otherwise want to maintain the integrity of your original group.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 18, 2018, 10:40:38 pm
Then you should probably update your question a little.I want a more in-depth reply about rulers and priests and such, rather than just a few sentences.What is your opinion on playing historic figures? Should there be a setting for that?Wasn't that covered last month?
--edit
Well, only in part, it seems. But I'm pretty sure there are Dftalks and other fotf replies on the subject too.Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You mention that only members of your starting party will be directly controllable in the upcoming adventurer additions (besides in turn based combat, presumably). What's stopping you from allowing direct control of histfigs who join your party later? Is it just the interactions you'd have to add ('Hi Dad!'), or is there something complex you need to do before we can take control of the destinies of 'real people'?
Toady:
I could be missing something obvious, but no, there's nothing stopping us except the existing relationships and positions, as you suggest. The position part is pretty big; taking over a civ-ruler would just be silly now, like they were possessed and became a wanderer. I mean, not that that's a bad thing for game-game fun-time, but it cuts against what we are trying to do enough that it hasn't been a priority. That will continue to change as we go. Certainly doing something like taking over an existing bandit gang is well within reach now, and might be pretty fun.
In particular, control over your later-added companions is more of a roleplaying thing; they aren't meant to be as loyal and we wanted to leave some room there. Once we quantify loyalty a bit (part of this release!), we might have them cross a threshold where you can induct them into party status, and then you'd be able to TAB over to them freely. You might not want to do this if you are trying to roleplay a villain and don't care to have your loyal subordinates as part of a party, or otherwise want to maintain the integrity of your original group.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on August 19, 2018, 03:01:56 am
Will this cause changes in Adventure-mode? I know the current push is for Fortress mode but friendships and such would be a big addition in ADV mode.
I mean being friends with say a kings consort could get you into better standing. Heck with friendships alone it might be easyer to find people and shops you are looking for.
Post by: Hapchazzard on August 19, 2018, 06:31:40 am
2. Will the myth generator be able to generate extremely advanced/magically potent 'precursor' races (I know, it's a sci-fi term, but I feel like it fits here too) and how would they be balanced? While it would be cool to have a race of basically omnipotent reality-bending lizards in the myth story, if they persisted in 'recorded history' (the playable time) in significant numbers it would probably be obscenely unbalanced and they'd be able to curbstomp everyone else.
3. If said races are planned, just how powerful would they be able to be? As much as literal deities (building pocket planes, creating new deities from scratch, etc.)?
4. I saw that in the current version of the myth generator, one can have mortals rise up in rebellion against deities, though they seem to always lose. Will it be possible to have a more generalized war system for the myth generator, enabling war in heaven style conflicts between deities, groups of deities, precursors, etc. where any of the combatants can get eliminated, transformed, etc.?
Post by: thvaz on August 19, 2018, 07:47:07 am
Post by: Lorn Asbord Schutta on August 19, 2018, 07:51:44 am
1.You said in devlog that the succesful plotting, alongside beliefs and position of target, would be determined by "intrigue skill". Is it going to be seperate skill like mining or dodging, or it will be mix of social skills like liar or diplomat?
2. You mentioned that being a criminal mastermind would be a thing soon. If option of playing inquisitor/detective in adventure mode will be supported as well? Not necessarily in full possible spectrum, but being able to discover plots via just talking with people and having right set of skills/clues, or occasional quest to thwart some villain agenda would be a thing that at least I look forward.
3. In same spirit, if there would be fortress guests which will petion to stay in your fort to help you in discovering and preventing from villainous plots? Just like monster slayers come to help you hunt down critter in caverns.
4. Will be able to choose not only what equipment to take at the start of adventure, but what quality it would be? For instance, paying more points to have *iron longsword* instead of normal one?
Post by: Death Dragon on August 19, 2018, 08:19:55 am
1. How will adapting the creation myth to different cultures work? It would be odd if goblins, elves and humans all had the exact same creation myth.In one of the old myth gen presentations Toady shows that different races might only believe in parts of a creation myth or have their own, different ones.
2. Will the myth generator be able to generate extremely advanced/magically potent 'precursor' races (I know, it's a sci-fi term, but I feel like it fits here too) and how would they be balanced? While it would be cool to have a race of basically omnipotent reality-bending lizards in the myth story, if they persisted in 'recorded history' (the playable time) in significant numbers it would probably be obscenely unbalanced and they'd be able to curbstomp everyone else.The myth generator can definitely create random races with special magical abilities, but I don't know how much of "precursor" they can be. What do you mean specifically? A race that has built several cities before the other races even apear on the world or a race that is at part involved with the creation of another race? I think the second might be in the myth gen, but I dunno about the first.
Post by: voliol on August 19, 2018, 09:48:50 am
2. Will the myth generator be able to generate extremely advanced/magically potent 'precursor' races (I know, it's a sci-fi term, but I feel like it fits here too) and how would they be balanced? While it would be cool to have a race of basically omnipotent reality-bending lizards in the myth story, if they persisted in 'recorded history' (the playable time) in significant numbers it would probably be obscenely unbalanced and they'd be able to curbstomp everyone else.
3. If said races are planned, just how powerful would they be able to be? As much as literal deities (building pocket planes, creating new deities from scratch, etc.)?
Some answers back here (I think) there was a similar question, where Toady answered that as well as generalized versions of the races we already have, he wanted to have generalized fairies, ancient giants, precursor gods (like the titans in greek mythology) etc. accounted for in the myth gen, as they are all common tropes in real-life myths.
If you look at the myth-gen demos there are also the ancient original forces, and personified usually abstract things, like the sea and the sky, filling the same roles as precursor gods would, creating the deities and whatnot.
I'd guess they would normally be locked to myth-gen events/guaranteed to be slain, banished or sealed during it, distinguishing them from normal gods. It would surprise me if they weren't valid targets for the eventual magic summoning conspiracies though, so in some way on another they should still be able to interact with the would.
Post by: Rockphed on August 19, 2018, 12:12:14 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 19, 2018, 04:17:56 pm
Quote
1. How will adapting the creation myth to different cultures work? It would be odd if goblins, elves and humans all had the exact same creation myth.The creation "myth" isn't actually a myth, it's the actual creation of the world. It's complex enough that each race/civ can focus on a different part of it (the bits relevant to their race and its creation, presumably).
So each race will have a different story of how they came to be, but it'll stem from interrelated events that actually happened at the dawn of time (presumably including some that none of the civilised races are aware of?).
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 19, 2018, 06:51:20 pm
Here's to the idea that some primitive form of diplomacy might be achieved to circumvent a war by having your mayor, baron or monarch chat & become lasting good friends with a visiting human law-giver to incline them less to attack you.
Post by: a52 on August 19, 2018, 10:10:17 pm
Post by: Blaze_1711 on August 20, 2018, 08:54:04 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 20, 2018, 08:58:13 am
Will we potentially see, in the myth and magic update, a race with magical capabilities summoning representants of an otherwordly race, and this otherwordly race possibly overthrowing their summoners/settling the world on their own?
^ lime green please.
Under 'myth and magic' on the development log (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), there are many notable stories published by the brothers (particularly penned by threetoe) regarding the release of malignant gods, as well as discussion/development goal points of sealing & releasing them. Not all of the stories turn out well for the summoners, i recommend you give a whirl of "The Wedding of Doom (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_wedding.html)" to get the vibe and other threetoe stories (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_story.html) to get a behind the scenes breakdown of the sort of things Toady & Threetoe discuss with each other.
A seperate story of warriors of the dead (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_warriors_dead.html) has a summoning wizard use their powers to their own end to manipulate the undead on another plane. Summoning from the afterlife as a example.
Post by: Miuramir on August 20, 2018, 07:40:14 pm
1. How will adapting the creation myth to different cultures work? It would be odd if goblins, elves and humans all had the exact same creation myth.
That gets into complicated questions of what "myth" really is, and how they evolve over time. I would imagine that there would be roughly the following categories:
A) No connection to reality or history, made up by some entity (deific, historical, or mundane) for some end
B) A more-or-less garbled over time version of what happened, but focusing on one sub-aspect that is particularly relevant to the culture or some powerful / influential entity. (The stories of the mushroom people may gloss over anything that happens on or to the surface world, while spending pages on the Wafting of the First Spores.)
C) A more-or-less garbled over time version of what happened, but significantly twisted or re-interpreted by some culture or powerful / influential entity to further their ends. (Consider the whole "Han shot first" controversy, as well as many real-world controversies over history I deliberately do not mention here. Wars of the gods are unlikely to be *less* controversial than human ones...)
D) A more-or-less correct version of what happened. In rare cases (e.g. a God of Knowledge and History) this may be pushed out early on by someone who was there; but in most cases it is probably only available later on when some knowledge-collecting entity or organization has the ability to compare versions and create a "consensus" history via years of scholarship.
Quote
2. Will the myth generator be able to generate extremely advanced/magically potent 'precursor' races (I know, it's a sci-fi term, but I feel like it fits here too) and how would they be balanced? While it would be cool to have a race of basically omnipotent reality-bending lizards in the myth story, if they persisted in 'recorded history' (the playable time) in significant numbers it would probably be obscenely unbalanced and they'd be able to curbstomp everyone else.
Note that in some (I would argue "most", even) interpretations of DF, *you* are the precursors! The dwarves delve improbably deep, build exotic and puzzling mega-projects with seeming disregard for economy or common sense, lash out with ludicrous overkill against minor slights, fight monsters from before the dawn of time with legendary warriors equipped with armor and weapons made from the very structure of Hell itself, and craft normally impossible works of art and craftsmanship.
Consider... "This is the 'Treasure Room', suspended out over the magma sea by a single thin strut of polished obsidian, engraved with the stories of the First Age. In it are a full-sized bed made from a single yellow diamond, a giant cave spider silk sock that was used to slay an ancient dragon, and a sword made from a mystical blue material that is unreasonably light and sharper than any physical substance could possibly be. Access is guarded by a hatch cover impervious to any known attack, which appears to made from unicorn soap. Legends say that if the ancient lever made from crimson petrified wood in the back room is ever pulled, the 300' tall dwarf statue that stands over the entrance far above will spew forth such a volume of lava from its upturned mug that the surrounding county will be utterly obliterated."
The world-clock starts at 0, unless you choose to let it run for a while; if you want a world with a Khazad-dûm, it is up to you to delve it, and let the lesser ages to come wonder at the folly and skill of the dwarves of the First Age.
(Of course, more prosaically, there are other many other playstyles and interpretations; and with the advent of new starting scenarios and procedural myths this may become less common. But to me at least, this is the heart of DF.)
Post by: GenericUser on August 20, 2018, 08:02:14 pm
2. Can we expect diplomatic faux pas or other things rising from the personalities of leaders and their relationships with each other?
3. With villainy being fleshed out, can we expect someone gaining enough power to start a civil war, or create their own ‘empire’?
4. Would dreams/goals influence plots? Say, if there’s a person who dreams to rule the world, they may hatch a plot to hold the world in their iron grip?
Post by: Death Dragon on August 22, 2018, 08:13:46 pm
https://kakebytes.podbean.com/e/episode-16-%E2%80%94-dwarf-fortress/
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 22, 2018, 08:45:05 pm
There's a new interview podcast with Toady here:The moment they lose the connection and Toady just talks at length about the future and what mythgen means for the game was awesome.
https://kakebytes.podbean.com/e/episode-16-%E2%80%94-dwarf-fortress/
Post by: Fishyfire on August 24, 2018, 11:37:45 am
http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/cueddatabooks/materials.pdf
Post by: Putnam on August 25, 2018, 06:31:45 am
I have found a PDF containing potentially useful materials information, may be interesting.
http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/cueddatabooks/materials.pdf
I actually made a suggestion thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149938.msg6147647#msg6147647) on this a while back. In hindsight, I'm not sure bones are isotropic and I know they're not homogeneous, but it's not like the game models mats that aren't, so.
Post by: Beag on August 25, 2018, 03:33:28 pm
2. Will criminal organizations inside the same town or city fight each other?
3. Will this change in the number of criminal organizations per town or city open up more kinds of missions for player adventurer's in those groups?
4. In the villain update how much will laws vary between civilizations and will there be a way for the player adventurers to find out what those laws are?
Post by: Blaze_1711 on August 25, 2018, 06:19:40 pm
Post by: KittyTac on August 25, 2018, 10:48:00 pm
Is it possible that, with the myth and magic updates' progress, we might end up seeing a powerful enough mage/sorcerer/warlock/summoner/god/angel/demon/thing casting a mass spell on a city or region? Bring in some sort of demonic mist over the place or straight up warp a whole castle/village into a pocket dimension/hell itself?Common element in fantasy stories. Will probably occur depending on the world.
Post by: golemgunk on August 26, 2018, 03:35:04 am
Is it possible that, with the myth and magic updates' progress, we might end up seeing a powerful enough mage/sorcerer/warlock/summoner/god/angel/demon/thing casting a mass spell on a city or region? Bring in some sort of demonic mist over the place or straight up warp a whole castle/village into a pocket dimension/hell itself?
The stuff being worked on right now is probably going to lead to situations like this directly. Villains having goals and making people do their bidding will become a lot more interesting when magic becomes a part of this. Wizards and cults doing spells in the name of gods they worship and affecting the world at large sounds plausible.
Post by: BassDwarf on August 26, 2018, 06:09:45 am
By work site, I mean things like mines, logging camps, farms etc.
Starting on a site with no iron can be a real problem and require you to only outfit people with copper/bronze or painstakingly trade for iron and coal or cheese multiple sieges with traps until you can melt down Goblin weapons and armor until you have enough iron to equip the militia. When with these outside work sites, you can send Dwarves off to prospect for any type of material and they begin working a mine, sending a caravan back periodically and supplying the fortress with materials. This can extend to ores, wood, food, sand, clay and more and would help fortresses lacking in various things on the embark.
Plus with farms, you can have Dwarves run ranches etc without the issue of 30 cows damaging the FPS but you still get milk, meat and leather.
Then you have the fun of attacks on the work sites, a gold mine raided by bandits, or a Goblin faction you are at war with attacks your mine rather than your fortress, and of course, Elves upset with your logging camp send in the war grizzly's to stop the deforestation, all of which can kill and scatter your Dwarves, them returning with the tale of the attack.
Naturally this can expand adventure mode too, with them becoming randomly generated sites in history and can be formed and lost as the world progresses, and your lord could send you off to cause trouble/raze a nearby goblin mine. Plus these work sites can act as war justification/cause, "the war started over a disagreement over local resources" or some such matter.
I understand that there are plans that outside hillocks will be able to send food etc but I think having, smaller, more focused sites would also be a decent addition to fortress mode as well as the world building that benefits adventure mod.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 26, 2018, 06:29:06 am
So with the with the implementation of sites outside of yours that are within your holdings and the ability to exile Dwarves there to remove them from your fortress and visa versa, what would be the chance of getting "work sites" and the chance of this being done before the big wait?Lime green text if that's a question.
By work site, I mean things like mines, logging camps, farms etc.
Starting on a site with no iron can be a real problem and require you to only outfit people with copper/bronze or painstakingly trade for iron and coal or cheese multiple sieges with traps until you can melt down Goblin weapons and armor until you have enough iron to equip the militia. When with these outside work sites, you can send Dwarves off to prospect for any type of material and they begin working a mine, sending a caravan back periodically and supplying the fortress with materials. This can extend to ores, wood, food, sand, clay and more and would help fortresses lacking in various things on the embark.
Plus with farms, you can have Dwarves run ranches etc without the issue of 30 cows damaging the FPS but you still get milk, meat and leather.
Then you have the fun of attacks on the work sites, a gold mine raided by bandits, or a Goblin faction you are at war with attacks your mine rather than your fortress, and of course, Elves upset with your logging camp send in the war grizzly's to stop the deforestation, all of which can kill and scatter your Dwarves, them returning with the tale of the attack.
Naturally this can expand adventure mode too, with them becoming randomly generated sites in history and can be formed and lost as the world progresses, and your lord could send you off to cause trouble/raze a nearby goblin mine. Plus these work sites can act as war justification/cause, "the war started over a disagreement over local resources" or some such matter.
I understand that there are plans that outside hillocks will be able to send food etc but I think having, smaller, more focused sites would also be a decent addition to fortress mode as well as the world building that benefits adventure mod.
Probable answer is "almost none" since it's not on the list of development points for pre-big wait development. Sites with specific purposes is part of the law/property update probably, so not for quite a while yet.
Might be worth a post in the suggestions forum though.
Post by: BassDwarf on August 26, 2018, 09:30:45 am
Lime green text if that's a question.
Probable answer is "almost none" since it's not on the list of development points for pre-big wait development. Sites with specific purposes is part of the law/property update probably, so not for quite a while yet.
Might be worth a post in the suggestions forum though.
Thanks for informing me about the lime green, my bad.
I know its not in the pre-big wait unfortunately, and unless Toady magically changes his mind on this question, we may have to wait until law/property, I just think its a feature worth investing in, especially with the prospect we are gonna have to go 2+ years of no updates and Toady really wants to give us a decent chunk of content to keep us busy and large parts of which primarily effect adv mode content, giving fort mode something new that would expand things would be nice. This would then also give low population forts a better chance of thriving and surviving, and low population means better FPS.
Post by: George_Chickens on August 26, 2018, 10:35:43 am
I'm particularly curious about this for moving fortress parts. It'll be hard to make a weapon to surpass Metal Gear if we can't use rails to shoot things off site with it.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 26, 2018, 12:22:32 pm
Is it ever planned for the DF map to be "continuous"? As in, will fluid that runs off the map and minecarts shot out of it always just disappear for good, or one day will we see these fluids and items actually go somewhere and affect wherever they land?To do that DF would have to keep more of the world loaded, which means trees etc. would grow outside of our embark, corpses and arrows, plus your minecarts, of course, litter it, etc. This would probably result in X * Y embarks require an (X+2)*(Y+2) memory footprint, with all the associated issues of junglification (with no cutting except the occasional fire, which we presumably could set off ourselves...). On top of that, we'd have issues at the world tile boundaries, although I wouldn't be surprised if the map rewrite takes world tile straddling issues into consideration.
I'm particularly curious about this for moving fortress parts. It'll be hard to make a weapon to surpass Metal Gear if we can't use rails to shoot things off site with it.
Caravans and visitors (and our raiding parties) would similarly have to pass this "almost included" terrain, and possibly deal with with critters there.
Post by: feelotraveller on August 26, 2018, 09:50:25 pm
Separately, are there any plans to reintroduce Dwarven Parties? I ask because stress balancing and addressing the difficulty of forming relationships seem to be on the table in the near future. (I always liked that mechanic. ;))
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 26, 2018, 10:02:36 pm
In celebration of the (first) anniversary of the last announced ban on the forum, I'd like to ask, is this an unreservedly a 'good thing'? ...which is my way of asking about that pachyderm over there without actually naming it...Generic "party" was replaced with drinking, singing, dancing, socializing, game playing (future), fistfighting and dying. It won't be coming back (and once the bugs in that list are fixed and it's all working properly it will seem pointless to even consider bringing it back).
Separately, are there any plans to reintroduce Dwarven Parties? I ask because stress balancing and addressing the difficulty of forming relationships seem to be on the table in the near future. (I always liked that mechanic. ;))
Specific celebrations might be introduced later. But will most likely feature all of the above (plus parades and stuff from festivals for big occasions, presumably). I doubt we'll ever see dwarves just stand around "partying" again.
Post by: feelotraveller on August 26, 2018, 10:40:36 pm
Generic "party" was replaced with drinking, singing, dancing, socializing, game playing (future), fistfighting and dying. It won't be coming back (and once the bugs in that list are fixed and it's all working properly it will seem pointless to even consider bringing it back).
Specific celebrations might be introduced later. But will most likely feature all of the above (plus parades and stuff from festivals for big occasions, presumably). I doubt we'll ever see dwarves just stand around "partying" again.
I understand that there was a replacement, but it is quite different to having a large section of your fortress simultaneously deserting your orders and gathering together for a month or so en masse. Guess dwarfs don't celebrate birthdays or weddings, etc. And it feels quite bereft from a story point of view - unexpected parties are a long and honoured tradition. :P
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 26, 2018, 10:56:09 pm
I think specific celebrations are planned (somewhere in amongst the 65% of the game which hasn't been implemented yet) . And dwarves not taking breaks to gather and socialize together is part of the ongoing stress problems which need fixing.Generic "party" was replaced with drinking, singing, dancing, socializing, game playing (future), fistfighting and dying. It won't be coming back (and once the bugs in that list are fixed and it's all working properly it will seem pointless to even consider bringing it back).
Specific celebrations might be introduced later. But will most likely feature all of the above (plus parades and stuff from festivals for big occasions, presumably). I doubt we'll ever see dwarves just stand around "partying" again.
I understand that there was a replacement, but it is quite different to having a large section of your fortress simultaneously deserting your orders and gathering together for a month or so en masse. Guess dwarfs don't celebrate birthdays or weddings, etc. And it feels quite bereft from a story point of view - unexpected parties are a long and honoured tradition. :P
Check out this thead for a summary of the various issues:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171185.0
Post by: feelotraveller on August 26, 2018, 11:18:21 pm
Dwarfs now do individual socialising (that occasionally coincides). They are poorer at forming relationships.
Mass gatherings though, are something else altogether. We used to have them. We don't have them now. We might have them in the future of our fortresses. It seems reasonable to ask about them, now.
Post by: IndigoFenix on August 26, 2018, 11:49:39 pm
Assuming we are still concerned about the player abusing their ability to switch to historical characters by taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide or intentionally making bad decisions, making the player "unlock" historical figures by gaining their loyalty or admiration as an earlier adventurer could be a way of balancing that, by making sure the player has some "investment" in the story of that group before allowing them to possess its leaders.
If powerful historical figures are playable by default, will there be any method of preventing players from taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide or intentionally making bad decisions, or is that just not a concern?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 27, 2018, 01:38:09 am
I've been following that thread - albeit at some distance.What's happening in your taverns? Mine are full of dorfs dancing, singing, fighting, dying, wishing they could play proc gen gambling games.
Dwarfs now do individual socialising (that occasionally coincides). They are poorer at forming relationships.
Mass gatherings though, are something else altogether. We used to have them. We don't have them now. We might have them in the future of our fortresses. It seems reasonable to ask about them, now.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 27, 2018, 01:41:45 am
When we tab to a party member, will we be able to control them directly, or simply give them general orders? Will we be able to "switch" to them?When was the last time you hired an important leader to come adventuring with you? Is it even possible?
Assuming we are still concerned about the player abusing their ability to switch to historical characters by taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide, making the player "unlock" historical figures by gaining their loyalty as an earlier adventurer could be a way of balancing that.[/color]
(Current sysyem as explained in last month's fotf is to allow direct control of starting party members and not so much of histfigs who join later)
Post by: Putnam on August 27, 2018, 01:43:34 am
Post by: KittyTac on August 27, 2018, 01:51:21 am
a lot of htem have the DUTY_BOUND token which makes them unable to follow youYou could mod it out.
Post by: IndigoFenix on August 27, 2018, 03:15:01 am
For playing as most existing rulers, some other limitation would be necessary, maybe being respected enough by the leader. Assuming the plan isn't to just "let the player take control of whoever they want whenever they want".
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 27, 2018, 03:50:48 am
Yes, you could, but the option to mod something doesn't obligate Toady to add the mechanics to deal with it. Modded adventuring leaders would just be those who 'wander off' one day. Actual leaders (beyond 'bandit camp boss') need mechanics which don't yet exist, if not a whole new 'kingdom mode' to make them actually playable.a lot of htem have the DUTY_BOUND token which makes them unable to follow youYou could mod it out.
Post by: feelotraveller on August 27, 2018, 08:01:25 pm
At any given time there are only a few dwarfs in there. Basically they go there to eat (note to self: stop putting of moving the drink pile :P) and might stick around for a day or two if someone is telling a story or something.I've been following that thread - albeit at some distance.What's happening in your taverns? Mine are full of dorfs dancing, singing, fighting, dying, wishing they could play proc gen gambling games.
Dwarfs now do individual socialising (that occasionally coincides). They are poorer at forming relationships.
Mass gatherings though, are something else altogether. We used to have them. We don't have them now. We might have them in the future of our fortresses. It seems reasonable to ask about them, now.
Post by: Enemy post on August 27, 2018, 09:38:32 pm
Post by: KittyTac on August 27, 2018, 10:43:34 pm
Will angels ever behave benevolently in the game world, or are they meant to remain antagonistic?Of course. Procgen magic and all. Vaults will be most likely removed and replaced with procgen magical dungeons.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on August 27, 2018, 11:06:02 pm
Try reducing the labor requirements of your fortress or manually disabling a few dwarves' labors. They should hang around the tavern and socialize. As it is, dwarves no longer automatically take breaks. I'm thinking of seeing if there's a way to automatically disable/reenable labors with DFHack.At any given time there are only a few dwarfs in there. Basically they go there to eat (note to self: stop putting of moving the drink pile :P) and might stick around for a day or two if someone is telling a story or something.I've been following that thread - albeit at some distance.What's happening in your taverns? Mine are full of dorfs dancing, singing, fighting, dying, wishing they could play proc gen gambling games.
Dwarfs now do individual socialising (that occasionally coincides). They are poorer at forming relationships.
Mass gatherings though, are something else altogether. We used to have them. We don't have them now. We might have them in the future of our fortresses. It seems reasonable to ask about them, now.
Post by: Death Dragon on August 28, 2018, 09:38:14 am
When we tab to a party member, will we be able to control them directly, or simply give them general orders? Will we be able to "switch" to them?With tabbing you will be able to control party members directly, yes.
Assuming we are still concerned about the player abusing their ability to switch to historical characters by taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide, making the player "unlock" historical figures by gaining their loyalty as an earlier adventurer could be a way of balancing that.
If powerful historical figures are playable by default, will there be any method of preventing players from taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide, or is that just not a concern?
There was an answer about this stuff already in last month's Q&A:
I could be missing something obvious, but no, there's nothing stopping us except the existing relationships and positions, as you suggest. The position part is pretty big; taking over a civ-ruler would just be silly now, like they were possessed and became a wanderer. I mean, not that that's a bad thing for game-game fun-time, but it cuts against what we are trying to do enough that it hasn't been a priority. That will continue to change as we go. Certainly doing something like taking over an existing bandit gang is well within reach now, and might be pretty fun.
In particular, control over your later-added companions is more of a roleplaying thing; they aren't meant to be as loyal and we wanted to leave some room there. Once we quantify loyalty a bit (part of this release!), we might have them cross a threshold where you can induct them into party status, and then you'd be able to TAB over to them freely. You might not want to do this if you are trying to roleplay a villain and don't care to have your loyal subordinates as part of a party, or otherwise want to maintain the integrity of your original group.
Post by: KittyTac on August 28, 2018, 09:45:52 am
He meant civ leaders.When we tab to a party member, will we be able to control them directly, or simply give them general orders? Will we be able to "switch" to them?With tabbing you will be able to control party members directly, yes.
Assuming we are still concerned about the player abusing their ability to switch to historical characters by taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide, making the player "unlock" historical figures by gaining their loyalty as an earlier adventurer could be a way of balancing that.
If powerful historical figures are playable by default, will there be any method of preventing players from taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide, or is that just not a concern?
There was an answer about this stuff already in last month's Q&A:I could be missing something obvious, but no, there's nothing stopping us except the existing relationships and positions, as you suggest. The position part is pretty big; taking over a civ-ruler would just be silly now, like they were possessed and became a wanderer. I mean, not that that's a bad thing for game-game fun-time, but it cuts against what we are trying to do enough that it hasn't been a priority. That will continue to change as we go. Certainly doing something like taking over an existing bandit gang is well within reach now, and might be pretty fun.
In particular, control over your later-added companions is more of a roleplaying thing; they aren't meant to be as loyal and we wanted to leave some room there. Once we quantify loyalty a bit (part of this release!), we might have them cross a threshold where you can induct them into party status, and then you'd be able to TAB over to them freely. You might not want to do this if you are trying to roleplay a villain and don't care to have your loyal subordinates as part of a party, or otherwise want to maintain the integrity of your original group.
Post by: IndigoFenix on August 28, 2018, 11:47:45 pm
Edited original question to clarify.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 30, 2018, 04:07:44 am
I know the forums would cope.
Hope everything gets a little more bearable soon!
Post by: Rockphed on August 30, 2018, 04:58:23 am
Have you looked into getting a proper AC? If you only use it during the smoke season, it shouldn't cost that much to run and should make life much more bearable.
Post by: DG on August 30, 2018, 07:49:04 am
Post by: thvaz on August 30, 2018, 09:01:12 am
If dwarf fortress has taught me anything, it is that by studiously lighting yourself on fire you can become immune to any ailment.
Have you looked into getting a proper AC? If you only use it during the smoke season, it shouldn't cost that much to run and should make life much more bearable.
Last year I asked him about getting an AC and he thought it wouldn't be so useful to use it just a couple weeks for year. However smoke is a lot worse than heat and AC could help with a proper set up.
A vacation on August could work also. Everyone deserves vacations, Toady even more so.
Best wishes on the grandma recovery.
Post by: Random_Dragon on August 30, 2018, 11:12:33 am
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on August 30, 2018, 08:31:57 pm
Post by: George_Chickens on August 30, 2018, 11:19:11 pm
Post by: DG on August 31, 2018, 07:29:18 am
extort Toady for hisvaluablesgiant desert scorpions.
Post by: George_Chickens on August 31, 2018, 10:32:02 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on August 31, 2018, 03:57:48 pm
Post by: Hellrazor on August 31, 2018, 04:14:04 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 31, 2018, 04:58:32 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 31, 2018, 05:57:19 pm
How much do you think you'll address stability issues before the big wait?If you're talking about crashes, make sure they actually happen in vanilla df before you report them (don't forget that starter packs are almost always not vanilla df). I find the game to be completely stable right now in that sense.
Post by: Tinnucorch on September 01, 2018, 05:22:48 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 01, 2018, 05:43:38 am
What are your thoughts about how much information should be given to the player about what's going on inside the dwarves heads? I can guess why numeric values aren't given, but right now there are cases where you have a very stressed dwarf with no apparent big issues in their thoughts and identifying the stress source/s involves a lot of guessing based on how the system works right now. On the other hand, all this could be intended if the player shouldn't be able to know everything about their dwarves.The current system isn't working or complete. It's not meant to be micromanagement hell once it's done.
Post by: Tinnucorch on September 01, 2018, 06:11:10 am
The current system isn't working or complete. It's not meant to be micromanagement hell once it's done.
I'm already aware of that. My question was more on the line of what will be the role of the thoughts and preferences screen once things are properly working, because right now it's quite misguiding and because maybe the implementation of proper site goverment/administration could render that screen obsolete with dwarves actually making complaints, associating themselves to make requests and that stuff. Not that I'm suggesting it, just considering the possibility.
So, I figured out the actual question:
Right now the thoughts and preferences screen is the main tool the player has to control and manage happiness in the fort. Can we expect for this to change once proper site administrations are implemented and dwarves (individually or collectively and besides nobles) can make requests or demands?
Post by: KittyTac on September 01, 2018, 06:27:21 am
Post by: GoblinCookie on September 01, 2018, 07:29:23 am
What do you think about adding oppressive systems of government? Because one user, GoblinCookie is concerned (read: causing a moral panic) about the depiction of oppressive governments.
Can you edit that to remove personal details, this is not a place to engage in personal attacks.
Post by: KittyTac on September 01, 2018, 07:33:17 am
Fine. You know my opinion of you.What do you think about adding oppressive systems of government? Because one user, GoblinCookie is concerned (read: causing a moral panic) about the depiction of oppressive governments.
Can you edit that to remove personal details, this is not a place to engage in personal attacks.
Post by: iceball3 on September 01, 2018, 09:32:03 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 01, 2018, 09:39:15 am
What do you think about adding oppressive systems of government?
Dwarves already are authoritarian by principle, many such crimes in the dwarven kingdom are delivered upon much more severe punished but be more level headed when considering dwarves can live out 100 year sentences & the time period, comparative with real life contemporary law & justice its harsh & and the own player input with the judiciary screen put the player in charge of delivering absolute justice.
I think to achieve such a effect it'd have to co-inside with some code changes like [RULER_JUDGEMENT] for a real flexible despotic take on how to deal with specific crimes akin to Dwarven Pyongyang with singular decisions defined by rule of whoever is the most senior on site.
((besides the fact dwarf fortress guards are infamous for lethally duffing up even minor offenders anyway (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10861)))
Do you think you can budget for a dust mask or respirator of some kind? It sounds like the air has been rough on you!
I dont count myself a expert, but with costs of finding a nice piece of kit with eye-guards & a effective respirator system and the actual individual filtration pockets to attach it might be a slightly expensive investment compared to shoving wet towels between the cracks between windows and investing in AC but that's my opinion and i have no personal scope of the problem Toady is facing.
A simple mouthpiece one and some scuba goggles could substitute though from the nearest Home Depot or whatever's in range to keep it out of your eyes & mouth.
Post by: Death Dragon on September 01, 2018, 10:04:53 am
What do you think about adding oppressive systems of government?Do you ask specifically about slavery or something else? As FantasticDorf said, the current dwarf government imprisons and beats people who don't submit to the demands of nobles and (until economy is finally back) only pays people in the form of food and some random crafts that are lying around, which I guess can basically be described as slavery.
Maybe with the new villain system we will be able to randomly accuse people of being criminals because of the spy stuff.
Post by: GoblinCookie on September 01, 2018, 10:21:12 am
Dwarves already are authoritarian by principle, many such crimes in the dwarven kingdom are delivered upon much more severe punished but be more level headed when considering dwarves can live out 100 year sentences & the time period, comparative with real life contemporary law & justice its harsh & and the own player input with the judiciary screen put the player in charge of delivering absolute justice.
True, but however harsh the system is it is never-the-less entirely just and fair. Nobody is ever is forced to commit crimes out of desperation due to poverty and the like. KittyTac's question does fall down generally on the subjectivity of oppression however.
Post by: Demonic Gophers on September 01, 2018, 12:54:51 pm
True, but however harsh the system is it is never-the-less entirely just and fair. Nobody is ever is forced to commit crimes out of desperation due to poverty and the like. KittyTac's question does fall down generally on the subjectivity of oppression however.-Noble mandates, say, earrings.
-Player forgets or refuses to order construction of earrings.
-Random hauler who immigrated with novice stonecrafter gets thrown in jail for failing to make earrings that were never ordered in a workshop that hasn't been built.
Entirely just and fair! But it's true that economic oppression is largely nonexistent, with all production currently owned by the state and distributed freely to all residents.
Post by: KittyTac on September 01, 2018, 01:09:03 pm
It might not always stay that way. Hence my question.True, but however harsh the system is it is never-the-less entirely just and fair. Nobody is ever is forced to commit crimes out of desperation due to poverty and the like. KittyTac's question does fall down generally on the subjectivity of oppression however.-Noble mandates, say, earrings.
-Player forgets or refuses to order construction of earrings.
-Random hauler who immigrated with novice stonecrafter gets thrown in jail for failing to make earrings that were never ordered in a workshop that hasn't been built.
Entirely just and fair! But it's true that economic oppression is largely nonexistent, with all production currently owned by the state and distributed freely to all residents.
Post by: GoblinCookie on September 01, 2018, 01:34:55 pm
Do you ask specifically about slavery or something else? As FantasticDorf said, the current dwarf government imprisons and beats people who don't submit to the demands of nobles and (until economy is finally back) only pays people in the form of food and some random crafts that are lying around, which I guess can basically be described as slavery.
Maybe with the new villain system we will be able to randomly accuse people of being criminals because of the spy stuff.
The latter situation as regards payment is basically utopia rather than oppression, that is pretty much how things ought to work in real-life. The former is the price the dwarves must regrettably pay to live in utopia, hence making it not-exactly utopia I suppose. But then again, compared to real-life systems it is a pretty good life, unless the player decides otherwise......
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on September 01, 2018, 01:45:55 pm
Post by: GoblinCookie on September 01, 2018, 02:09:49 pm
Dwarves have very little freedom. I would not consider that utopia. "Dictator which can be benevolent" isn't utopia-by-default with the possibility of failure - that's a slanted perspective, and you could just as easily call it dystopia-by-default.
They have the freedom to sit around all day and socialise, all work is technically voluntery except the noble's mandates as discussed.
Which goes to prove my point about how difficult answering KittyTac's question would be for any dev. It's utopia-by-default by my perspective since it requires the dictator to go out of his way to make things miserable, systems involving money are dystopia-by-default since they require a government to go out of their way to make this less miserable than it is their nature to be.
Post by: Tinnucorch on September 01, 2018, 02:27:46 pm
Post by: ZM5 on September 01, 2018, 02:59:47 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 01, 2018, 03:03:10 pm
Dwarves have very little freedom. I would not consider that utopia. "Dictator which can be benevolent" isn't utopia-by-default with the possibility of failure - that's a slanted perspective, and you could just as easily call it dystopia-by-default.
Like their literary counterparts, Greedy dwarves squirrel away vast sums of wealth to live in hedonistic pokey holes underground so freedom is the least of their worries.
Not a thread for "how this/that should work in real life" either, so I think me and a lot of other people would appreciate if you could keep your personal opinions on that out of this thread before it gets derailed due to pointless discussions where noone wins yet again, GC.
Here here
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on September 02, 2018, 02:35:47 am
Dwarves do not, in practice, sit around all day socializing. If ordered to work, they will work to the point of exhaustion and depression. Occasionally they will take time off - if the player has designated places to take time off.
Dwarf Fortress is neither a utopia nor a dystopia without player input. It is starvation or death to invaders, whichever comes first. There is no default, neutral fortress which players modify as they see fit.
(Actually, if the player did nothing besides unpause when the game paused and escaped out of the liaison dialog, what would kill the fortress first? With the reimplementation of more meaningful stress, it's possible the fortress could spend enough time starving/injured but not dead that the dwarves would die to angry brawls before they starved.)
Post by: Egan_BW on September 02, 2018, 03:06:39 am
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on September 02, 2018, 05:32:46 am
The player could still keep them from leaving, but then it could be explained with "the mayor locked all the doors and so the populace couldn't escape", so the immersion isn't broken.
Post by: Slozgo Luzma on September 02, 2018, 03:28:06 pm
1) I know AC is expensive but some cities have utilities assistance programs that can help pay for AC? They are often under-advertised so many people don't know about them. For instance in Phoenix, AZ, there are neighborhoods where as little as 6% of people have AC in a city that reaches 125 F in the summer, but the city offers a utilities assistance program that people don't know about.
2) Make sure that you have someone who checks on you: most heat-related hospitalizations occur with people who are socially isolated during a heat wave and don't have someone to check up on them if they pass out.
3) Stay hydrated!! If you even feel thirsty you're already lost 5-10% of your needed water mass. You should drink water before you even feel thirsty, and drink a lot.
4) It's not weird to walk around in your underwear running fans everywhere and covering yourself in cold water if no one can see you do it.
Post by: Toady One on September 02, 2018, 04:06:48 pm
Quote from: Tinnucorch
1- Can we expect from agents/inflitrators, at any point of the developement, to act as if they had knowledge of the consequences of their actions? Or asked in another way: what tools will these characters have to identify appropriate ways of acting? Will we see things like some traitor opening our gates to an invading army, trying to pull whatever lever that should not be touched or realeasing dangereous creatures from cages? What about all at the same time (like, aiming to create a diversion)?
2- Leaving aside practical examples, what limits do you expect these tools actually will have for this next release?
Keeping in mind what you said elsewhere about not wanting to give too much away:
Given that vampires and grudge-holders can currently file false witness reports, and vampires hide their supernatural physical attributes when they aren't in mortal danger, I suspect other such are on the table.
There are lots of limits on what we can do; I'm not quite sure what you mean. The main limits for this sort of thing are time and the cpu, but beyond that, spatial analysis and pattern analysis can be tricky. Take your lever example: thinking about animal release is easy, identifying an animal release trap that would just kill the lever puller (which has been set up by the clever player) is harder -- for this specific example, which we'd naturally been considering (given gremlins), we had thought about having the treacherous dwarf prioritize levers which had been pulled previously. That's knowledge which it would be fair for them to have, would still possibly gum up the works, and also be less risky for them. The downside there would be it cutting out many levers we'd want pulled. For invasion gates, the spatial analysis can be tricky, but a simple component test on a soldier vs. the other side of the lever's door would be sufficient for many cases. It just has to work sometimes for it to be good story fodder; it would be additionally good if the failed cases aren't overplayed with e.g. dramatic announcements. We'll be feeling it out as we go.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
So, given it seems you can encounter non-questors taking the identity of criminal, and it seems they might not always actually have a criminal record, what even is the justification for them being labelled criminals?
I have encountered NPCs who don't APPEAR to be artifact hunters, but have nonetheless assumed an identity as a self-labelled criminal, nor do they end up with an association with local criminal gangs.
They are criminals the same way peddlers are peddlers. It's abstractly true, but they don't do anything yet. This is the case for all the adventure civilian dwarf-style professions as well, except for a certain few that actually contributed to stockpiles in world gen (and no longer contribute once world gen is complete.)
Quote from: recneps
With future world generation changes making it more fantastic - less Earthlike - will things such as randomized biomes be possible? e.g. could you have a more erratic world that has fiery swamps -associated with Fire, Muck, and Peace- full of unicorns and satyrs, or a forest -associated with Healing, Darkness, and Defomority- that periodically has healing rain in addition to ogres and procgenned monsters?
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7822112#msg7822112
Quote from: Unknown72
So on the case of these deities/titans/ect being physical, would it be possible for one to migrate/petition to join a fort or integrate itself into a civ in some form phsyically (like becoming king/queen of the dwarves) or even start up their own civ with themselves at the head of it?
Tinnucorch: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7822142#msg7822142
Rockphed: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7822179#msg7822179
Yes, we used to have those impersonators more regularly, which doesn't exactly imply the real thing would ever happen, but it's certainly reasonable, given a deity with the proper body and motivations.
Quote from: lovesword
Is it possible that the villain update might bring a unique purpose to the venoms by allowing schemes to involve a poisoning of a target or the fort's food supply?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7822765#msg7822765
Quote from: SpeardwarfErith
To what extent do worldgen/mission battles currently take gear into account? I understand that it's done at least in some basic sense, but does it just compare skill/quality/material or does it do some more complex calculations? For example, will a dwarf with a copper hammer have a good chance against an armoured opponent like he does in fort mode or will he lose because copper is a "bad" metal? And if I mod some overpowered 1-shot-kill weapon, will that be reflected in the battles or will it treat it like every other weapon?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7823501#msg7823501
It doesn't do the same calculations that it does in in-play battles, as that would be a cpu killer, but it does use numbers based on the edge and impact fracture, I believe, for weapons and armor items that were worn on map exit. It can certainly be improved, but it can't become much more complicated at the risk of losing speed. Once we can finally move the camera to view squad battles, this won't matter anymore for the important fort-related battles.
Quote from: FrankVill
For next release, will do concept villain influence in dwarf relationships? Currently, in fortress mode is frequent that there were friendship or love between dwarfs, but it is difficult seeying grudge or hostility among themselves. I believe that is a good oportunitue for exploring or adding some negative traits to relationships.
This thinking carries me to another cuestion; are or will are relationships mechanics and villain mechanics tightly united? Or do they got separated treatment in DF?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7823545#msg7823545
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7823835#msg7823835
As far as negative relationships, I'm not sure how much we'll be adding any new ones in the fort, but certain of the new links formed out in the world will involve them. They might be harder to bring over to the fort if they involve aspects of law or business which aren't yet simulated there.
Quote from: scourge728
How's life?
I'm recovering!
Quote from: TheFlame52
Do raids take into account creature size/growth? Cave dragons are hatched the size of foxes and grow until they're 1000 year old, when they are huge killing machines. Will my small, young cave dragons fight like full-grown cave dragons off map?
Yeah, it looks at the age in days of the historical figure and plots it on the caste growth line.
Old version of question addressed by:
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7823992#msg7823992
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7824180#msg7824180
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7824462#msg7824462
Quote from: a52
Having experienced quite a lot of rather exotic ones, and being a programmer myself, I'm really passionate about bugs in Dwarf Fortress whenever I get back into it. What is the best way that I can help you fix them? Is posting on Mantis kind of the limit of what is useful for you/possible for me, or are there tools I could use to narrow down causes?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7824062#msg7824062
In addition, there have been cases where people have isolated causes based on diving into binaries and memory and that sort of thing, as the game is running I guess, and that's been helpful, but is quite beyond the limits of simple reporting and enters heroic territory. Also Patrik is correct that bugs that look easier to fix are fixed faster, generally, though I will spill a lot of time into crash/etc. bugs regardless of how patchy the reports are if there's any kind of hope of reproducing and/or fixing them.
Quote from: Descan
Have you ever considered chopping the title down to just "Dwarf Fortress"?
Not that I would recommend it or think it's a good idea, I'm just curious if you ever actually had thought about it, and what those thoughts were.
Yeah, we've considered it from time to time. It's certainly the most reasonable name for the game at this point. Mostly inertia, I guess? Concern for Wikipedia editors?
Quote from: Renarin21
1. In the prototype Myth Generator that was shown a while back, many of the innate magic systems involved the user drawing a Force that their race was linked to into themselves to use magic. Could an innate magic user use the Force as "fuel" for other magic outside of their innate capabilities?
2. Could another wizard seek to use objects/powers/whatever linked to the Force to manipulate it while it is "inside" of an innate wizard?
3. Would magic/soul eating critters be more attracted to innate magic users? More so when they are actually using their powers?
4. Kind of an extension of 1 and 2, could an innate wizard fuel other people's magic using a force?
5. Would a character channeling a force innately experience properties like weaknesses based on the force, outside of corruption? (like how were beasts have vulnerabilities while transformed)
6. Could a character try to find ways to draw power out of divine artifacts and whatnot, in a similar fashion to 1, 2, and 4?
7. Could supernatural devices be altered/corrupted?
8. If a race has some form of ancestor worship or something like that, and they are descended from a precursor race, could spirits of the precursor race show up alongside "normal" ancestors?
9. If people have innate magic from a supernatural ancestor, would those powers be self-contained, or would you have (at least in some situations) powers channeled from, and therefor reliant upon, the ancestor?
10. Would innate powers from an ancestor be based on what the ancestor can do, or would new powers be generated? (based on the mixing of the bloodlines or whatnot)
11. Could innate powers from an ancestor be extracted from blood or other bodily bits?
12. Would magical bloodlines be considered "blessed" or "cursed" based on the origin of the powers? (that guy is descended from a god we don't like, shun him!)
Edit:
b1. Will "sleeping" creatures be able to act during myth gen without/before waking up. Like their sleeping consciousness can do stuff outside the body, possibly with or without them realizing it?
b2. In the myth gen, the concept of souls as a microcosm was unveiled. That made me wonder, could the "souls" of some supernatural creatures (demons, spirits, ect.) function as "mini" planes of existence? I understand it would be a while before traveling to other planes isn't in the near future, but could there still be situations where a creature can store things like other souls, or even physical objects within themselves?
b3. Related to b2, could some creatures/races be created as an embodiment/manifestation of a given plane of existence?
1. Like two different mana pools that can feed into a set of common spells? It would need to be accounted for and there's no guarantee of that at first in generated systems, but it would be supported I suspect.
2. The prototype had states of linkage with the various forces, and those were prerequisites of certain spells. Having that be a prereq for somebody else's spells is much like #1.
3. Possibly unwanted attention from supernatural powers is a common side effect and I expect things along these lines.
4. Group magic is a topic, but I haven't thought much about the specifics of implementation. It's possible this would be supported; I'm not sure it would be generated at first.
5. No specific plans here yet.
6. This seems likely, but maybe after a first pass; there's a constellation of reagents and charges (e.g. wands) and crafting that points to underlying systems where certain magic may end up being transferrable or exhaustible to power other effects, but as with many things, it's unclear how this will be expressed in the initial systems.
7. On the table, but it's reliant on having them in the first place, which'll be the initial goal.
8. Hmm, by the numbers I feel this would get missed for non-historical people (on index comparison), but it also involves understanding exactly what the transition point looks like -- if there are parent linkages in historical figures crossing through the races, the precursors would get picked up naturally. So famous people would be more likely to get it, as the code for families currently stands. However, doing half-X etc. people has been notoriously difficult for us, so it does depend on the implementation.
9. It's quite similar to the deity/priest question. In some models, the deity is capricious or requires some kind of 'conscious' participation. In others, the deity is only nominally involved. The structure here probably carry over to other systems with any personified supernatural enabler.
10. If a bloodline is mixed, you'd have two whole sets of ancestors, so I imagine you'd get multiple power sets automatically, but it depends on the specifics of how it worked in the first place, which would be highly variable, as in #9.
11. This seems like a reasonable system, but not clear on such specifics for the first pass.
12. What people think of magic generally is very likely, what specific variables they'll look at and the variety of opinions they'll hold is more dev-time-dependent.
b1. This is a common-enough thing, I think, and dreams come up in the prototype. We'll have to see if that language survives or what implementations we get at first though.
b2/b3. Yeah, this is the idea. The stranger the better once the universe works this way. It's the sort of cosmology computers can handle well until you create a loop or delete something unexpected, then we can all enjoy freezes and crashes together, like a sugar-fueled cryomancer.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Are you ever afraid of disappointing people who see the Myth and Magic update as a "you can do literally anything!" game similar to what happened with games like Spore and No Man's Sky?
The update has been planned for such a long time and spawned quite the sizeable amount of questions and speculations which probably built up pretty high expectations in people.
Would you say you mainly develop DF for yourself or for the players or is it an even split?
Nah, I'm not worried about hype. We do a lot of anti-hype and expectation setting in the logs and here in FotF, and I don't think things are out of control.
It's too complicated now for me to tease those motivations apart. What would be a good thought experiment? If everybody wanted something I didn't want, would I put it in? Even that needs some more detail, as I've put in usability stuff in the past I wouldn't personally use, as I recall, and don't think that answers the question. It's more like... everybody wanting something that runs contrary to the vision? When have I ever done that... I don't remember. But it's hard to judge who wants what anyway, and a lot of the discrepancies can be solved by modding (e.g. goblins eating, etc.)
Quote from: Blaze_1711
How do you guys not get absolutely overwhelmed with the amount of ideas and contents this game has/will have? I'm developing my own roguelike and I get really overwhelmed with my own ideas.
A game will pretty much always have more admittable ideas than you can work on (not that all of them are strictly improvements.) Learning to prioritize, working on the best small-enough chunks, is an important skill, one we've obviously screwed up repeatedly. Still, we spend a lot of time organizing, categorizing, deciding where certain feature pushes fit in and how they layer. Lots of paper tablets used up around here.
Quote from: a52
Now that Fortress Mode is much more connected to the rest of the world, are you planning to have dwarves leave player fortresses if conditions get too bad/it no longer has a good profit/population ratio? Many real-word cities died out not because they were attacked, but because trade routes dried up and people simply left.
Of course, there would have to be ways for players to make sure certain dwarves were the least likely to leave -- perhaps dwarves that were very happy or made lots of money for the fortress would be much more likely to stay.
I recall mentioning that this is becoming more and more on the table in response to a question a month or two ago, and I think that's still true. It's almost a matter of finding a time to do it rather than needing any large features at this point.
Quote from: iceball3
I understand that reconciling fort mode and adventure mode having different time scales is a current ongoing project that is being considered tentatively. However, I just noticed that there might be an issue with it, particularly concerning the Economy update on the menu some few years for now. Do you happen to have any ideas on how to short term or long term approach an issue that will likely happen: that adventure mode food consumption would be much more rapid than dwarf/legend mode?
Yeah, 'considered tentatively' is still almost too strong. I don't think the time scales can be reconciled, and I think it will always cause problems. With food, world gen already uses the adv mode consumption level for all sites, and I think that's a good enough way to continue. This means a player fortress by itself can't become a food exporter, but that's thematically fine. The issue maybe then becomes having abundant food outside the fort, enough for the dwarves to live on easily even in barren areas, and not having to pay/tax as much as you normally would to overcome potential starvation, and having food import be way more practical than hunting or farming. I don't think this is a major issue, though it's clearly not perfect.
Quote from: Rockphed
Where will we see these (tacky) villainous names show up? I'm pretty sure we will see them if we start unraveling plots, but will we also see them when a death squad comes to put an end to our interference? Will we hear of their alias when told of troubles ("Bloodmist the Evil sends his goons to harass us, but none know where he hails from" type of conversation)?
We're going to try to work them in all over in the exposition, yeah. The name by itself shouldn't jump you up the villain chain at all, without additional evidence, and it's important to use them when we can.
Quote from: ZM5
A question that came to mind regarding the mounts - do you think you'll implement a token that'd make it so that a creature cannot be mounted by other creatures past a certain size?
We have to do something at some point, though sizes have been a weak point of DF from the beginning and I don't anticipate getting to it this time.
Quote from: Demonic Gophers
You mentioned a dwarven mayor "unusually obsessed with intrigue." Does this arise from the current personality traits and values, or a new factor? Will the most intrigue-obsessed individuals carry out plans even when they don't care about the objective, just for the sake of plotting and scheming?
Villains can potentially infiltrate your fort by recruiting citizens, and even officials, but will masterminds also be able to arise within the fort on their own initiative? Could a sneaky, ambitious dwarf establish and build a world-spanning conspiracy right under the player's nose, or will the network always start off-site (unless created by the player, of course)?
This was based off the current stuff. Values 'cunning' is convenient here, as well as anxiety and not trusting people. I don't yet have it as a specific hobby. Yeah, intrigue-obsessed people don't need an excuse.
Hmm, I can't tell you if one of your own dwarves could become a mastermind yet, as I haven't implemented the on-site agent behavior. It's actually possible that it could be possible, by accident, as it were. The dwarf in question would certainly be in the 'villain pool', and the recruiting code would also be active (as on-site agents will need it.) Technically, that's almost all they would need. The missing element would be the ability to send people away, as we don't let your dwarves leave of their own accord yet, so they might become reliant on travelers. Once dwarves can leave, that restriction would be lifted.
Quote
Quote from: Egan_BWWill all villains have "evil" motivations, or will some of them mean well? If so, will they still use the same tacky names as normal villains?Quote from: DescanTo build off this: If the good folks aren't going to use those kinds of names... CAN they? Please?
I don't think there'll be any altruistic schemes to better the community right now. It'll depend more on how you interpret motives like revenge. When the general title system gets expanded we'll probably see more of what you are looking for name-wise.
Quote from: SpeardwarfErith
In the army arc, if an off-map army is sent to defend against an invader and loses, will they retreat to your fortress, any nearby settlement, or just sort of disappear?
They will likely return home if they aren't captured or destroyed, the way it works now.
Quote from: KittyTac
What is your opinion on balancing DF?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7833129#msg7833129
I really do need more to work with. What are we even balancing here? It's not a competitive game and there aren't a bunch of classes/characters like in a MOBA or something. The new magic systems will intentionally alter most aspects of vanilla balance. At the same time, we care about getting, e.g. material data correct. Certain weapons like whips seem like they should be way weaker and completely impractical, but there's a certain role for 'heroic individualized weapons' in this genre, in which case some bit of artificial balance might be preferred. Having history always turn out the same way because one of the civs is way better than others is a potential concern and currently a bit messed up, but the tools we use for that are partially in the magic category anyway.
Quote
Quote from: KittyTacWhat is your opinion on playing (and starting as) important historical figures such as rulers and priests? Should there be a setting for that? Will the setting default to OFF?Quote from: IndigoFenixWhen we tab to a party member, will we be able to control them directly, or simply give them general orders? Will we be able to "switch" to them?
Assuming we are still concerned about the player abusing their ability to switch to historical characters by taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide or intentionally making bad decisions, making the player "unlock" historical figures by gaining their loyalty or admiration as an earlier adventurer could be a way of balancing that, by making sure the player has some "investment" in the story of that group before allowing them to possess its leaders.
If powerful historical figures are playable by default, will there be any method of preventing players from taking control of an enemy leader and committing suicide or intentionally making bad decisions, or is that just not a concern?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7833147#msg7833147
Yeah, I'm sure I've addressed elsewhere how this ought to be a world setting. Defaults are complicated and I don't have a strong opinion at this point. I can understand not wanting to be tempted to ruin a world, say, but there's also a richness to certain implementations of the feature that shouldn't be ignored; not bouncing between rulers to screw things up (though that can be fun), but playing, say, a human civ leader until death/end of rule, then playing a goblin civ leader until death/end of rule, etc, seeing how things turn out and play off each other; that's the kind of fascinating experience we want to encourage people to explore. Not all characters need to be fresh in the world. That said, taking over rulers is the hardest case, as it requires a lot of features we're only just now getting into and won't be far along with for years and years.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839823#msg7839823
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839824#msg7839824
IndigoFenix (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839846#msg7839846
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7840864#msg7840864
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7840870#msg7840870
I do think the loyalty/party-induction method isn't a bad middle-ground setting between "no takeovers" and "take over anybody," but I think they should all be permitted as settings. If somebody wants to take over anybody, I don't think there should be restrictions on what they can do, as I imagine that's the point of choosing that setting, though of course there's room for two different settings here, where you can take anybody over, but there are heavy restrictions on how that works; as you say, this isn't necessarily easy, when it comes to behavioral restrictions, but restrictions like "must control for X years" is something -- if somebody wants that restriction for story purposes, suicide/etc. isn't a concern, since they've opted-in to the ruleset in the first place.
Post by: Toady One on September 02, 2018, 04:07:13 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorf
<concerning dev goal: Site resources should depend on trade/tribute relationships as well as available professions and sprawl sites>
Is this currently realised in the applicable loot tables for active historical/ahistorical crafts-people on site, or is the production of tribute & resources simulated by site type or other behind the scenes mechanics?
It's purple (partially complete) up there mainly because of the world gen site stockpiles and trade relationships; there are lots of numerically tracked goods, managed in lots by source market site id, and that's somewhat reflected in the town trade goods (and why people hawking wares in the markets can say where their goods are from.) However, all of the personal equipment is done just according to the local goods; it looks at the regional animals for instance to do all the leathers. Certain reactions as with alloys, though, are determined entirely by the raws, and it doesn't yet even try to check for the reagents being available. So there's a lot going on, but it's only part of the way there.
Quote from: Fleeting Frames
What are the current 8 short and long-term memory categories?
Ah, there are 42 groupings and 8 slots; the slots don't have types. The idea is just to stop one or two memory types from dominating everything, but it's possible for some weak groups to be excluded. However, all of the thoughts about, say, complaints and petition rejections and not having a tomb and everything that feels like bad site government is just one category, and it is by far the largest. So parts of the game where we have a lot of odd details can't dominate the proceedings, at least.
Quote from: Beag
1. If a creature dies on an afterlife plane what are the possibilities for what can happen to them?
2. Can you give us some examples of how a player adventurer would go about rooting out or joining an evil plot?
3. If player adventurers will be able to lead armies will they be able to gather their civilization's army at any time or only when they are at war with another group?
4. Will player adventurers ever be given quests by their lords/ladies to be part of an army led by someone else and if so how will traveling as part of an army work?
1. Depends on the creature and the plane. Pen-and-paper tells us that natives of the planes generally die permanently or are reformed after X days/years. Not unreasonable. Pen-and-paper also tells us that 'souls' arriving in a plane can be traded and devoured or whatever, but this is somewhat silly; it'd likely require a certain sort of flair to the magic settings to cast away metaphysical notions of final judgment with such abandon (assuming some kind of final judgment, which is a common enough theme but not at all universal.) I suspect we'll generally be looking less toward pen-and-paper here and going more for a no-death-in-the-permanent-afterlife vibe oftentimes, though other possibilities will arise.
2. All specific adv-driven examples will wait for the logs I think. World gen isn't even done yet and I don't want to get ahead of myself.
3. Wars have to start somehow, though we haven't decided on any specifics here.
4. This is a problem we haven't solved yet more generally; there's nothing too wrong with just doing the Indiana Jones thing and have you move along with their * on the map for as long as you cede control, and we had thoughts along these lines even for some of the party stuff, but we're not sure yet.
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
Will this cause changes in Adventure-mode? I know the current push is for Fortress mode but friendships and such would be a big addition in ADV mode.
I mean being friends with say a kings consort could get you into better standing. Heck with friendships alone it might be easyer to find people and shops you are looking for.
Yes, it's an odd world now, where you can gain a reputation for politeness or for being a trade partner after swapping socks with somebody, but it doesn't track the larger dynamics. We'd talked a bit last time-ish about considering doing a relationship grid for the party, and that's some kind of start, and it feels like we're sort of moving into this realm now. I'm not ruling it out yet, though as you say, not precisely the focus; when the adventurer is running a villain chain though, understanding friendship there becomes an equalizing practicality.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
1. How will adapting the creation myth to different cultures work? It would be odd if goblins, elves and humans all had the exact same creation myth.
2. Will the myth generator be able to generate extremely advanced/magically potent 'precursor' races (I know, it's a sci-fi term, but I feel like it fits here too) and how would they be balanced? While it would be cool to have a race of basically omnipotent reality-bending lizards in the myth story, if they persisted in 'recorded history' (the playable time) in significant numbers it would probably be obscenely unbalanced and they'd be able to curbstomp everyone else.
3. If said races are planned, just how powerful would they be able to be? As much as literal deities (building pocket planes, creating new deities from scratch, etc.)?
4. I saw that in the current version of the myth generator, one can have mortals rise up in rebellion against deities, though they seem to always lose. Will it be possible to have a more generalized war system for the myth generator, enabling war in heaven style conflicts between deities, groups of deities, precursors, etc. where any of the combatants can get eliminated, transformed, etc.?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7834581#msg7834581
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7834642#msg7834642
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7834897#msg7834897
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7835584#msg7835584
1. I think was addressed by the above replies.
2. I don't have an issue with obscenely unbalanced curbstompers in the sense that we'll have gods, which are even worse, infinitely worse. Coming to terms with the realities of cosmological decisions will be part of the fun, and we'll have to adjust from there; if omnipotent gods make the worlds universally silly, maybe we won't have them in the end, but I think there's room to work, and I think that also holds for precursors living among us. It's fine to be unpowerful, if you want to play a non-precursor character, or you could play a precursor if they are in fact still around. And as Miuramir says, you do occupy a kind of middle ground already. The earlier conceptions of DF were about having humans explore stages of distance between the dwarves and tracing a few of their artifacts over time, even into a roughly modern day analog at one point.
3. Yeah, I don't think there are any lines I'm putting up until it becomes necessary. Certain slider settings will imply active gods or godlike beings. Of course, you can just flick that off, and that might be the default if they end up being too annoying (before the first release, possibly.) What is the source of restraint of the involved omnipotent gods? It depends more on the author's imagination, I suppose.
4. Yes, I suspect this will be the case, time-permitting.
Quote from: thvaz
(Regarding 08/18 devlog) Will the role of families also be expanded both in wg and fortress mode? Family ties are stronger than friendship and are underdeveloped in the game.
Ah, yeah, those were some of the few links we already had so I failed to mention them in my new-links rambling. Family will play a large role in the process.
Quote from: Lorn Asbord Schutta
1.You said in devlog that the succesful plotting, alongside beliefs and position of target, would be determined by "intrigue skill". Is it going to be seperate skill like mining or dodging, or it will be mix of social skills like liar or diplomat?
2. You mentioned that being a criminal mastermind would be a thing soon. If option of playing inquisitor/detective in adventure mode will be supported as well? Not necessarily in full possible spectrum, but being able to discover plots via just talking with people and having right set of skills/clues, or occasional quest to thwart some villain agenda would be a thing that at least I look forward.
3. In same spirit, if there would be fortress guests which will petion to stay in your fort to help you in discovering and preventing from villainous plots? Just like monster slayers come to help you hunt down critter in caverns.
4. Will be able to choose not only what equipment to take at the start of adventure, but what quality it would be? For instance, paying more points to have *iron longsword* instead of normal one?
1. Yeah, this was not a perfect decision exactly, but we're leaning toward a skill right now that encapsulates certain theories of tradecraft and scheming, as learnable things, the same way people can learn about making chairs.
2. Ah, yes, the 'hero' side of the matter will also be supported, even prioritized, though as you suggest, certain parts of that are easier to handle than others. We'd like you to be able to work your way up a villain chain to the final villain where practical; this involves not immediately killing people, perhaps, though if that proves tricky at first we can use Incriminating Notes or other not uncommon video game silliness as a stopgap measure. Depends on time as much as anything.
3. Hmm, it's a reasonable suggestion, especially if your civ leader or another fort is running counter-villain agents on some scheme that winds up at your doorstep. I'm not sure we'll get there, but it might be something I have to handle just because they will want to come, same as the bad ones.
4. Ah, I hadn't considered this at all, strangely enough (or not strangely.) I'll note it down but can't make any promises at this juncture for the release. Same is true for fort equipment too if I remember, and I'm not sure we ever had a reason for that. I can see restricting masterpieces to ones made by your fort, but not simple well-crafted stuff. I think the convention has been as well that higher quality equipment is generated with a higher probability of random artistic improvements on it. It'd definitely be too much work for this time to allow you to set specific improvements, but random ones might come along for the ride. I think (?) you used to be able to start with them if you set your skills high enough anyway, as that's part of the "master weaponXer" default equipment plan.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Will historical figures such as monarchs weigh their foriegn policy with other civilizations based on friendship with other civilisation members/leaders they might bond/break links with.
We've had a person-to-person evaluation for leaders for years; it looked at family relationships and religious similarities, since that's all we had to work with. We'll be expanding that into friendship and the other linkages now as we add them. I'm not sure it'll go so far as to look beyond leaders, as that sort of network scanning can get expensive (though it'll be getting some additional shortcuts this time to facility agent schemes, so who knows?)
Quote from: a52
Now that memories and thoughts can change personalities, will eating a particularly good/bad meal ever change food preferences?
Seems like a reasonable suggestion. It used to reveal food preferences as you found them, and that made sense when there were fewer of them. Now, it's like we need broader categories and quirky exceptions and sudden realizations and all that.
Quote from: Blaze_1711
Will we potentially see, in the myth and magic update, a race with magical capabilities summoning representants of an otherwordly race, and this otherwordly race possibly overthrowing their summoners/settling the world on their own?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7835233#msg7835233
Quote from: GenericUser
1. Will personality now influence the descisions a leader might make? For example, a paitient and vengeful person might be more likely to start a plot?
2. Can we expect diplomatic faux pas or other things rising from the personalities of leaders and their relationships with each other?
3. With villainy being fleshed out, can we expect someone gaining enough power to start a civil war, or create their own ‘empire’?
4. Would dreams/goals influence plots? Say, if there’s a person who dreams to rule the world, they may hatch a plot to hold the world in their iron grip?
1. For villains, this is the case, yeah. Personality also already influenced decision scoring for starting wars and so forth. It isn't super interesting though, and will hopefully continue to slowly improve.
2. It's reasonable but I'm not sure when; almost all of these sort of incidental but important variations on events are missing. Just getting the skeleton has been a lot of work, but the variations are crucial as well.
3. It's not something that's supported yet; the law/status/etc. release includes definitions for subgroups to allow this to happen more formally in a way people can talk and think about succinctly. The current entity structures don't work. However, starting wars and having informal power over everything are quite likely, so... sort of a soft yes, heh.
4. This is reasonable. There are new sets of short-term goals, but I really should make use of the ones we have.
Quote from: Beag
1. What sort of laws/religious stuff do you think needs to be added specifically for the villain update?
2. Will criminal organizations inside the same town or city fight each other?
3. Will this change in the number of criminal organizations per town or city open up more kinds of missions for player adventurer's in those groups?
4. In the villain update how much will laws vary between civilizations and will there be a way for the player adventurers to find out what those laws are?
1. Dunno yet. Priests exist as hist figs at sites but they don't do anything or form specialized links. Any links would be exploitable; even a recognition that the priest is of the proper religion would be useful. Law stuff is really all over the place; it influences reasons relationships can sour, villains have a general disdain but also use for them, and we also might need new ones for the fort investigation to have teeth. But as I've said, it's not clear exactly what we'll be adding to world gen from our grab bag to get plots properly varied. That's happening presently and I'll add what I need; I'd hoped to know by now but August was as it was.
2. Fight is a strong word, as I'm not sure what new violence we'll have here overall, but any two schemers would initially be at odds. That might not remain the situation as their plots progress and intersect.
3. I suspect, though the role of adventurer as villain subordinate is still up in the air due to the conversation stuff I think I mentioned previously. Just a time thing, though we're all for it.
4. I don't think laws are going to be so firmly established and all-encompassing in this release. There is still the actual Law release. I'm working more for convenience this time.
Quote from: Blaze_1711
Is it possible that, with the myth and magic updates' progress, we might end up seeing a powerful enough mage/sorcerer/warlock/summoner/god/angel/demon/thing casting a mass spell on a city or region? Bring in some sort of demonic mist over the place or straight up warp a whole castle/village into a pocket dimension/hell itself?
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7838908#msg7838908
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7838980#msg7838980
We've also mentioned world-ending scenarios, which are more disastrous than city-level spells. Additionally, if it's not possible to play some vague analog of Master of Magic in DF (at some world slider setting), we aren't doing our job.
Quote from: BassDwarf
So with the with the implementation of sites outside of yours that are within your holdings and the ability to exile Dwarves there to remove them from your fortress and visa versa, what would be the chance of getting "work sites" and the chance of this being done before the big wait?
By work site, I mean things like mines, logging camps, farms etc.
Starting on a site with no iron can be a real problem and require you to only outfit people with copper/bronze or painstakingly trade for iron and coal or cheese multiple sieges with traps until you can melt down Goblin weapons and armor until you have enough iron to equip the militia. When with these outside work sites, you can send Dwarves off to prospect for any type of material and they begin working a mine, sending a caravan back periodically and supplying the fortress with materials. This can extend to ores, wood, food, sand, clay and more and would help fortresses lacking in various things on the embark.
Plus with farms, you can have Dwarves run ranches etc without the issue of 30 cows damaging the FPS but you still get milk, meat and leather.
Then you have the fun of attacks on the work sites, a gold mine raided by bandits, or a Goblin faction you are at war with attacks your mine rather than your fortress, and of course, Elves upset with your logging camp send in the war grizzly's to stop the deforestation, all of which can kill and scatter your Dwarves, them returning with the tale of the attack.
Naturally this can expand adventure mode too, with them becoming randomly generated sites in history and can be formed and lost as the world progresses, and your lord could send you off to cause trouble/raze a nearby goblin mine. Plus these work sites can act as war justification/cause, "the war started over a disagreement over local resources" or some such matter.
I understand that there are plans that outside hillocks will be able to send food etc but I think having, smaller, more focused sites would also be a decent addition to fortress mode as well as the world building that benefits adventure mod.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839048#msg7839048
BassDwarf (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839126#msg7839126
It's really not going to come first; one of the main points of the law/property/etc. release is to make work sites possible (and playable.) It requires a large framework to happen.
Quote from: George_Chickens
Is it ever planned for the DF map to be "continuous"? As in, will fluid that runs off the map and minecarts shot out of it always just disappear for good, or one day will we see these fluids and items actually go somewhere and affect wherever they land?
I'm particularly curious about this for moving fortress parts. It'll be hard to make a weapon to surpass Metal Gear if we can't use rails to shoot things off site with it.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839209#msg7839209
The above reply is the crux of it. This doesn't mean that abstract structures can't tie things together in certain ways. If you have some sort of Meteor Gun, and can shoot other cities with it, that doesn't mean the other cities need to be loaded in detail to feel it. A lot of the powerful magic spells will have these kinds of abstract effects. It's not possible to simulate it at tile-detail though, at least, not all the time -- we do have plans with the planar/army stuff of allowing other parts of the world to be loaded, and if you want to load up a camera shot of ground-zero for your world-range spell, then that is in the cards. (whether you'd have the ability to get the camera would depend on a variety of things; it's quite possible the sensible player will work on their remote viewing spells first so that they can enjoy their other spells more properly)
Quote from: feelotraveller
In celebration of the (first) anniversary of the last announced ban on the forum, I'd like to ask, is this an unreservedly a 'good thing'? ...which is my way of asking about that pachyderm over there without actually naming it...
Separately, are there any plans to reintroduce Dwarven Parties? I ask because stress balancing and addressing the difficulty of forming relationships seem to be on the table in the near future.
A good thing. Seems good. You mean you want me to ban more people? I haven't been holding back. It just hasn't come up. If you feel there's a problem, you should report it. Perhaps you have and I've been lax. This is possible. The end of the thread this month indicates that the forum is certainly not without ongoing problems.
On parties:
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839701#msg7839701
feelotraveller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839727#msg7839727
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839745#msg7839745
feelotraveller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7839759#msg7839759
Yeah, the world gen festivals still haven't made it to fort mode; that'll be useful for the problems, though it's a bit involved to be used as our stress fixer, which we'll be getting to sooner.
Quote from: Enemy post
Will angels ever behave benevolently in the game world, or are they meant to remain antagonistic?
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7840570#msg7840570
Yeah, the current setup is a quite odd testing ground, and specifically related to the demon world entry/binding. Angels in the future should be more reflective of their associated deities/spheres/etc. (already, deities w/ certain spheres are prohibited from being involved with vaults), and will be unimpeachably benevolent in certain cases, to the extent we can pull that off.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerDo you think it would effect the schedule /donations if you just took an extended holiday every August?
I know the forums would cope.Quote from: iceball3Do you think you can budget for a dust mask or respirator of some kind? It sounds like the air has been rough on you!
It would probably just be a matter of timing it. Sometimes July is bad, sometimes August is bad, and it can be tricky to figure out exactly which week or month will be terrible. It certainly wouldn't have hurt to skip town for a week or two in here, especially if I'd explained what was up in advance, and it's better than having to explain the disaster afterward, anyway. In my defense, I had got a window fan for this year, and it was helping the night-time sleep temperature -- I was in good spirits! Then the smoke came, and the window fan couldn't be used. So next year, an air filter maybe? One of the military-grade masks people recommend? Then we'll see what conspires against that. Summer is actively malevolent.
Quote from: Hellrazor
How much do you think you'll address stability issues before the big wait?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7843849#msg7843849
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7843881#msg7843881
If you don't mean stability in terms of actual crashes, but more the broader sense of bugs, there will be some more work. I'm not going to remotely clear the tracker or anything. That's never been practical in the face of upcoming features which will render swaths of bugs irrelevant, but of course there are other bugs that should be fixed as soon as I can get to them.
Quote from: Tinnucorch
Right now the thoughts and preferences screen is the main tool the player has to control and manage happiness in the fort. Can we expect for this to change once proper site administrations are implemented and dwarves (individually or collectively and besides nobles) can make requests or demands?
I'm not sure exactly when to expect changes there. Clearly some kind of aggregation is needed, especially when the reading burden for individual thought screens becomes too high (which is arguably already true for the starting seven.) Part of the idea was to handle it with subgroups; once there is a miners guild, say, they can naturally aggregate happiness requests for their members, and it would become part of the fortress politics to handle those parts of the game.
Quote from: KittyTac
What do you think about adding (and playing as) oppressive systems of government?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7844261#msg7844261
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7844276#msg7844276
Demonic Gophers: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7844383#msg7844383
Dozebôm Lolumzalìs: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7844782#msg7844782
etc.
There are particular bits of oppression I have no interest in adding (systematized sexual violence, many of the various human genocides, certain forms of discrimination as previously discussed, etc), and other bits are already in there, as observed in the referenced posts. So you'd have to be more specific, though I don't want to drag what's apparently a suggestions forum beef into this thread.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 02, 2018, 04:25:19 pm
Post by: ZM5 on September 02, 2018, 04:31:14 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 02, 2018, 04:48:55 pm
Post by: trib on September 03, 2018, 05:31:32 am
<snip>Quote from: iceball3Do you think you can budget for a dust mask or respirator of some kind? It sounds like the air has been rough on you!It would probably just be a matter of timing it. Sometimes July is bad, sometimes August is bad, and it can be tricky to figure out exactly which week or month will be terrible. It certainly wouldn't have hurt to skip town for a week or two in here, especially if I'd explained what was up in advance, and it's better than having to explain the disaster afterward, anyway. In my defense, I had got a window fan for this year, and it was helping the night-time sleep temperature -- I was in good spirits! Then the smoke came, and the window fan couldn't be used. So next year, an air filter maybe? One of the military-grade masks people recommend? Then we'll see what conspires against that. Summer is actively malevolent.
<snip>
Furnace HEPA filters (https://www.amazon.com/furnace-filters/b?node=13399891) aren't that expensive and should be quite easy to MacGyver (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5APw_SLUU) in front of a fan to get most of the smoke particles. Best would be above MERV 17 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_efficiency_reporting_value) however since 90% of smoke particles are smaller than 1 micron size, but MERV 16 should also help as it is 1.0–0.3 μm filtering.
Airflow will of course suffer, but this is probably a better option than an air filter in the room since a fan blowing in smoke will overwhelm it most likely.
Post by: Death Dragon on September 03, 2018, 09:30:33 am
Additionally, if it's not possible to play some vague analog of Master of Magic in DF (at some world slider setting), we aren't doing our job.That is very much nice to hear because I LOVE Master of Magic.
Now I want to play as an antmen civ, summoning creatures to conquer sites in an alternate plane.
Post by: Real_bang on September 03, 2018, 04:05:49 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 03, 2018, 04:11:55 pm
What are you planning on doing from the devlog after the villain arc?There's only really Armies and Improved Sieges left from pre-mythgen plans (adventurer stuff will probably be mixed in like this time). I imagine we'll know by the time next month's fotf comes around.
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 04, 2018, 02:40:15 am
What are you planning on doing from the devlog after the villain arc?There's only really Armies and Improved Sieges left from pre-mythgen plans (adventurer stuff will probably be mixed in like this time). I imagine we'll know by the time next month's fotf comes around.
Depending on how it rolls out, this arc was sort of a deviation because jumping into the myth sooner than later would have left the world under-developed so i expect that the villian's will serve to flesh out the world narrative wise more the same way defacto location visitors did with site traffic and game mechanics to simply put more people in the world that weren't cooped up purely in sites.
Personally without asking i think he wants a fresh start by January so he can dedicate the full remaining year to the Myth-Arc with some sort of playable basic iteration and soft introduction with a few select wizards & spells and a basic mythgen editor by the end of that year or least a viable scope of a prototype, so until December he's filling in all the 'cracks' as it were with worldgen and gameplay mechanics to make a richer world.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 04, 2018, 03:06:40 am
- I don't think starting time is important, but rather will be a function of when Toady think he's done enough to tide us over and then taken care of the game breaking level bugs.
- It's called the BIG wait for a reason. A single year for the initial development phase of an arc is on the short side for a normal arc. Two years would be quite reasonable, but crossing the 3 year mark probably hurts, so I'd expect feature postponing due to time to start at about the 2½ year mark (things running into trouble and expected to take a fair bit more time than expected can probably be postponed earlier).
- This arc will break save compatibility, and as far as I understand it, this means Toady will want to do all those compatibility breaking system updates that have been held back in one fell sweep, which means replacement of a huge amount of plumbing.
- Once all that old plumbing has been replaced and the system has been wired back together it's finally time to actually add something, which I would suspect would mainly be the underlying Myth & Magic system, but with a fairly scant set of applications of it.
- Once the bare bones have something on them, I'd expect a first, wildly unbalanced, version to get feedback for balancing from while more flesh is added to the bones.
Of course, Toady knows his plans and processes better than anyone else, so he may provide a correct overview in his answers at the end of the month.
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 04, 2018, 03:14:14 am
Quote
- It's called the BIG wait for a reason. A single year for the initial development phase of an arc is on the short side for a normal arc. Two years would be quite reasonable, but crossing the 3 year mark probably hurts, so I'd expect feature postponing due to time to start at about the 2½ year mark (things running into trouble and expected to take a fair bit more time than expected can probably be postponed earlier).
I put it down to wanting players to playtest his early working version first and also keep the community's fire stoked because i know some people habitually drift back and fourth between versions and i doubt Toady isn't aware of that fact too, ontop of making the DF page not look inactive if it goes quiet of devlogs for a bit. I personally doubt Toady will commit full to the continous wait because there will always be the Mantis reports in motion even after a big cull of as many as he can pin down and whatever takes his fancy in the meantime with deviative but also productive projects he can slide around the production of the magic arc such as little leaps to finalise and polish the villian and army arcs respectively so they integrate a little smoother.
Quote
Of course, Toady knows his plans and processes better than anyone else, so he may provide a correct overview in his answers at the end of the month.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 04, 2018, 03:50:12 am
Incidentally, currently reading the 2012 Big Wait devblogs. Very entertaining. What makes you think he'd stop writing the blog just because he's Big Waiting?
Post by: ZM5 on September 04, 2018, 05:17:26 am
Post by: KittyTac on September 04, 2018, 05:41:23 am
This kinda reminds me of a much older interview where Toady estimated the magic update would be out by...2018. I'd have to find it again, though.I Want My Magic Update (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IWantMyJetPack).
Post by: George_Chickens on September 04, 2018, 10:32:42 am
Post by: KittyTac on September 04, 2018, 10:46:04 am
Are there any ways planned for the counter-use of magic or defence against it? With the description of extremely powerful spells, it seems probable that a mature fort may piss off the wrong sorcerers and get wiped off the face of the earth with a catastrophically powerful hex.Anti-magic is a common fantasy element, so probably yes, depending on the world.
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 04, 2018, 10:53:12 am
Are there any ways planned for the counter-use of magic or defence against it? With the description of extremely powerful spells, it seems probable that a mature fort may piss off the wrong sorcerers and get wiped off the face of the earth with a catastrophically powerful hex.
Naturally ties into emergence/decline mechanics of how the overall could possibly change in play with the basic elements, such as on a no magic world (with on teeny weeny discrepency) could suddenly unleash a torrent of supernatural happenings and phonemema by reading aloud something akin to the necronomicon on the whispers of dark ethereal voices dismissed as illness or tales to scare children.
Or a highly magic world for a inexcplicable reason having its guardians supporting the magic locked away and having supernatural things fade out of existance, wither and die. This explanation is relatively scraped together from different talks, devlogs, threetoe stories and chats but we'll have to wait to see how it'll pan out.
Post by: Tinnucorch on September 04, 2018, 01:17:32 pm
Quote from: Tinnucorch1- Can we expect from agents/inflitrators, at any point of the developement, to act as if they had knowledge of the consequences of their actions? Or asked in another way: what tools will these characters have to identify appropriate ways of acting? Will we see things like some traitor opening our gates to an invading army, trying to pull whatever lever that should not be touched or realeasing dangereous creatures from cages? What about all at the same time (like, aiming to create a diversion)?
2- Leaving aside practical examples, what limits do you expect these tools actually will have for this next release?
Keeping in mind what you said elsewhere about not wanting to give too much away:
Given that vampires and grudge-holders can currently file false witness reports, and vampires hide their supernatural physical attributes when they aren't in mortal danger, I suspect other such are on the table.
There are lots of limits on what we can do; I'm not quite sure what you mean. The main limits for this sort of thing are time and the cpu, but beyond that, spatial analysis and pattern analysis can be tricky. Take your lever example: thinking about animal release is easy, identifying an animal release trap that would just kill the lever puller (which has been set up by the clever player) is harder -- for this specific example, which we'd naturally been considering (given gremlins), we had thought about having the treacherous dwarf prioritize levers which had been pulled previously. That's knowledge which it would be fair for them to have, would still possibly gum up the works, and also be less risky for them. The downside there would be it cutting out many levers we'd want pulled. For invasion gates, the spatial analysis can be tricky, but a simple component test on a soldier vs. the other side of the lever's door would be sufficient for many cases. It just has to work sometimes for it to be good story fodder; it would be additionally good if the failed cases aren't overplayed with e.g. dramatic announcements. We'll be feeling it out as we go.
I'm glad to hear you're better after all the problems this last month :)
I was indeed thinking about technical limitations so your answer was perfect :D
Really looking forward to the next release!
Post by: Buttery_Mess on September 04, 2018, 02:50:35 pm
If so, do you think it would be possible to data from generated worlds to use as source material for the game? For example, maps, a bestiary, and so on.
This thought just popped into my head. DF has been described as a fantasy world generator so it's already got good source material for fantasy settings. I wondered if combat could be simplified and abstracted in order to make better use for it as a tabletop RPG, like another game mode besides those we already have. This isn't a suggestion, I'm just wondering if the underlying combat system is too complicated (with armour material, body types and sizes, and so on) for it to be simplified in such a way.
I mean, I suppose you could program automatic statistical experiments into DF to output lists of probabilities for the outcome of combat and use that as a basis for RPG rules... it seems doable in my head. But I don't have a degree in maths, am not a strong programmer, and don't really know how DF works, under the hood.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 04, 2018, 04:14:09 pm
Also, manual turn management usually doesn't like 20 turns of misses, dodges, and bruises, while a computer will just keep going until the battle is resolved.
DF already has map exports and Legends Mode data should be possible to use for backdrop material. The creature (and plant) raws are the technical side of a bestiary (plus flora).
Post by: Death Dragon on September 04, 2018, 08:12:43 pm
Do you think it would be possible to simply adventurer mode into a set of rules that could be used as a pen-and-paper roleplaying game? On a purely mechanical level, for things like movement, combat, generic skill checks and so on.Uh, I think you're missing some words?
If so, do you think it would be possible to data from generated worlds to use as source material for the game? For example, maps, a bestiary, and so on.
"To simply adventurer mode into a set of rules"?
"To data from generated worlds"?
If you're asking about being able to export stuff from the game, you can already export a world's map and history like PatrikLundell mentioned above me and can use it for third party programs like legends viewer.
Post by: TrueWolves on September 06, 2018, 02:45:35 pm
If so, do you think they'll be able to retain any of their own world-specific traits or skills, or find themselves always at the mercy of a new universe?
Could a world ever be flagged during creation to specifically pull someone(random or otherwise) from another world file to turn in to some sort of god-like or at least unusual historical figure? Obviously this would make the world much less reproducible unless you always used the same two seeds in a row without playing the previous world, but would such a thing ever be possible?
Honestly I don't expect most of this to be possible in any kind of first pass or potentially even first full version of Dwarf Fortress. It be a complicated concept to code for, but the Arena code does already pull from whatever world files you need it to. There is a lot of neat stories out there where some cruel god like being draws multiple people from other universes in some sort of contest to the death... or other stories where a small plane exists entirely as an ironic hell for entities from other worlds (Ravenloft anyone?)
Also wow, haven't posted on here in years...
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 06, 2018, 04:58:16 pm
You can probably hack that kind of effect by making a raw for a race that somehow isn't generated anywhere and then hack a character into existence to role play universe pulling antics.
It's much more reasonable to imagine characters from the current world being pulled into a pocket plane of some powerful entity, because the world and its data still exists, even if the character has been transported to somewhere where a different raw subset (possibly generated and added on the fly as the pocket springs into existence) is used.
Post by: happy face on September 06, 2018, 06:11:19 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 06, 2018, 06:37:12 pm
Will the personality have a more important role in the game?Lime green for questions so Toady Eyes can spot it.
Also, you should mention a timeframe. Development is due to last the next 30 years or so, so the answer is, of course, "yes" with no specifc details.
In the short-term, villains arc will be making use of personalities. So yes in the short-term too.
Depends what you mean by "more important" though. They're extremely important right now effecting almost everything about a dorf.
Post by: Oreos on September 07, 2018, 07:29:51 pm
Post by: Putnam on September 07, 2018, 08:06:35 pm
Post by: KittyTac on September 07, 2018, 11:16:32 pm
Playing in adventure mode i have noticed vampires are a bit currently dull. Vampires in mythology have always been powerful beings with many powers and abilities so Will Vampires get some new abilities like hypnosis, thrall creation, and polymorphism? And if so Would Vampire villians have different plot options from regular villians if they did have typical vampire powers?Magic will be procedurally generated. So probably yes.
Post by: Tinnucorch on September 08, 2018, 07:24:46 am
Playing in adventure mode i have noticed vampires are a bit currently dull. Vampires in mythology have always been powerful beings with many powers and abilities so Will Vampires get some new abilities like hypnosis, thrall creation, and polymorphism? And if so Would Vampire villians have different plot options from regular villians if they did have typical vampire powers?Magic will be procedurally generated. So probably yes.
If they exists in first place. I suspect that curses will become more varied than just becoming a werebeast or a vampire (related to what Putnam said about vampire abilities ending up as properties) so there might not be vampires in every world (besides mundane ones, I mean). Even if there are not specific plans yet, Toady could probably confirm or deny the generalization of curses.
Edit: Just found this on the old dev notes:
Core96, GENERALIZED CURSES AND OTHER ALTERATIONS, (Future): "Zombie" and "Skeleton" modified creatures aren't really satisfying right now, since zombies, ghosts, and so on gain some of their interest from the details surrounding the transformation and the particulars of the creature so transformed. Generalized curses and sphere-based alterations could vary from world to world and involve all sorts of changes to creatures (and other objects). Requires Core92.
Post by: DG on September 08, 2018, 09:24:11 am
So from that post in regards to vampire traits, they will eventually get around to adding all of the traditional ones, from sunlight vulnerability to arithmomania, and original ones besides, but it will wait until they come up with a better system for exposition.
Post by: Oreos on September 09, 2018, 09:37:29 am
Also Will we every see adventure mode fast travel?
Post by: Real_bang on September 09, 2018, 02:33:50 pm
2. Will you be able to set links with your adventure party members (childhood friend/war buddy/wife/brother/etc.)
Post by: Tinnucorch on September 09, 2018, 02:43:56 pm
1. Will you be able to marry someone in adventure mode?
I think I read in a recent answer that the idea is to be able to play with your descendents, so yes; but I don't think it's planned for anytime soon since there are already a lot of things being considered for developement.
Post by: Demonic Gophers on September 09, 2018, 03:19:32 pm
1. Will you be able to marry someone in adventure mode?
2. Will you be able to set links with your adventure party members (childhood friend/war buddy/wife/brother/etc.
Both 1 and 2 are definitely in the long term plans, but not necessarily in the next release.
Quote from: GenericUserWith the addition of parties, will we be able to start as a performance troupe from setup or will we have to do so after the adventure starts?
It would be really cool to have a sort of traveling band spreading dwarves music across the world.Quote from: DGWhen creating multiple characters for Adventure mode will they have initial relationships between themselves similar to a Fortress mode starting 7? If so, will it be random, fixed, or customizable*?Quote from: Slozgo LuzmaWill we be able to define interpersonal relationships between adventurers? For instance can our party consist of sibling, parent and child, spouses, or distant cousins? By extension will adventurers have to belong to the same entity?
Both of these are in the possible-for-this-release notes (starting entity, starting relationship grid), but I don't know if the time will be there. Definitely things we are looking forward to doing as we make party starts more and more interesting.
Post by: Button on September 09, 2018, 05:29:30 pm
2. Do you take personalities & values into account when making worldgen friendships, or just in-game friendships?
3. Is remarriage (after being widowed or abandoned due to night creature transformation) in the cards for the next release? Worldgen, fort-mode, both?
Glad to hear that the issue of historical figure immigrants all being already-married is likely to come to an end soon.
Post by: Ziusudra on September 09, 2018, 07:29:36 pm
Also Will we every see adventure mode fast travel?What do you mean by this? There already is the [T]ravel screen. See: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Adventurer_mode#Fast_travel
Post by: golemgunk on September 10, 2018, 02:48:25 pm
Also Will we every see adventure mode fast travel?What do you mean by this? There already is the [T]ravel screen. See: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Adventurer_mode#Fast_travel
I think they mean a way of automatically or instantly traveling by picking a spot on the map like in elder scrolls.
Unrelated to the that, if we're going to see relationships sour, does that mean divorce is going to be an option for unhappy couples?
Post by: Taffer on September 10, 2018, 09:36:15 pm
Apologies: this has likely been answered somewhere, but I couldn't find an easy answer with some searching.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 10, 2018, 09:57:23 pm
When I listen to DF talk and watch the videos where you talk about the upcoming mythology update, it's hard not to notice all the references to randomly generated creatures. I quite enjoy modding creatures in Dwarf Fortress, but I can't edit or change any of the randomly generated creatures the game creates as it is and I'm worried that this is going to get worse and worse as development progresses. Will we be able to edit the tags of randomly generated creatures? Change what tags are associated to which sphere, for example? This question could be generalized to randomly generated anything, but I'm personally primarily interested in the creatures.Short answer - Yes.
Apologies: this has likely been answered somewhere, but I couldn't find an easy answer with some searching.
If you search the beginning of each month for Toady's replies in this thread you'll see he's answered this a couple of times.
(Yes, I know that's annoying, but Toady would rather have the dev notes as the only specific set details on the direction he's going.)
Post by: Tinnucorch on September 10, 2018, 10:20:24 pm
When I listen to DF talk and watch the videos where you talk about the upcoming mythology update, it's hard not to notice all the references to randomly generated creatures. I quite enjoy modding creatures in Dwarf Fortress, but I can't edit or change any of the randomly generated creatures the game creates as it is and I'm worried that this is going to get worse and worse as development progresses. Will we be able to edit the tags of randomly generated creatures? Change what tags are associated to which sphere, for example? This question could be generalized to randomly generated anything, but I'm personally primarily interested in the creatures.Short answer - Yes.
Apologies: this has likely been answered somewhere, but I couldn't find an easy answer with some searching.
If you search the beginning of each month for Toady's replies in this thread you'll see he's answered this a couple of times.
(Yes, I know that's annoying, but Toady would rather have the dev notes as the only specific set details on the direction he's going.)
Shouldn't be the mythgen editor able to (eventually) handle procgen creatures? I'm not sure what is actually meant to edit, really.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 10, 2018, 10:29:16 pm
Toady agrees that this and expanding what can be modded overall is a priority.
And he's also producing a fixed world editor for modders with very specific worlds in mind.
Post by: Bumber on September 10, 2018, 10:40:28 pm
Will we every see adventure mode fast travel?The Crime and Punishment arc will support being captured and taken to a site, with the capability of skipping the boring parts of the journey. The Economy arc will involve boats, which you could probably buy passage on. He's mentioned being hired as a guard to protect merchant caravans, too.
With any luck, we might get magic that teleports us to certain areas. I'm not sure if waypoint portals are going to make it in the first Magic arc, or whether they'd wait for the alternate planes kind to be added.
Post by: voliol on September 11, 2018, 02:11:17 am
Post by: Tinnucorch on September 11, 2018, 10:52:12 am
Mythgen will generate creatures, but modders want the ability to influence this generation (restrict random critters to just varieties of goats, for example keeping everything else "vanilla". Or say, ensuring that only water sphere based critters can develop inate teleportation abilities - because mod lore).
Toady agrees that this and expanding what can be modded overall is a priority.
And he's also producing a fixed world editor for modders with very specific worlds in mind.
I think it was meant to be and (in-game) editor able to edit the myth (and the generated creatures, races, etc.) after the myth generation. Something like you generate the myth and then you just find that there is a race with very silly powers (or any other little detail you could dislike for that matter), and you just delete/change that without generating a whole new myth.
I'm not understandig if the world editor will be able to do that or if it's just an entirely different feature (aimed only at creating tailored worlds from scratch) and editing little details of an already generated myth will only be achievable (if at all) by editing the files.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 11, 2018, 11:13:26 am
Editing AFTER the fact seems rather unlikely: if you wanted it this way you should have guided world gen to follow that path, not try to modify it afterwards. However, DFHackery can do a lot of things, so it might be possible eventually (but there is a whole mountain of mapping that will have to be done first, as well as determining what controls what, so any editing provides a consistent result.
Post by: voliol on September 11, 2018, 11:26:32 am
Mythgen will generate creatures, but modders want the ability to influence this generation (restrict random critters to just varieties of goats, for example keeping everything else "vanilla". Or say, ensuring that only water sphere based critters can develop inate teleportation abilities - because mod lore).
Toady agrees that this and expanding what can be modded overall is a priority.
And he's also producing a fixed world editor for modders with very specific worlds in mind.
I think it was meant to be and (in-game) editor able to edit the myth (and the generated creatures, races, etc.) after the myth generation. Something like you generate the myth and then you just find that there is a race with very silly powers (or any other little detail you could dislike for that matter), and you just delete/change that without generating a whole new myth.
I'm not understandig if the world editor will be able to do that or if it's just an entirely different feature (aimed only at creating tailored worlds from scratch) and editing little details of an already generated myth will only be achievable (if at all) by editing the files.
The final extent of them is unclear, but we saw mythgen raws in one of the GDC talks (this one (https://gdcvault.com/play/1023372/Prac), also includes a presentation by Tanya Short about Moon Hunter) so at least they will exist in some way. Considering the prototype myth raws included the options of adding arbitrary objects (cosmic objects) and restricting objects to only appear on certain fantasy levels, we should be able to expect at least that.
Post by: Rubik on September 13, 2018, 11:39:53 am
What are the types of suggestions threads that are the most useful/interesting to you toady? Those that explain in detail a certain subject and how could it be implemented in DF? Lists of features that use unexpected mechanics and original ideas?
I myself want to write some up, but sometimes I feel like what I write (or see in the suggestion's thread, for that regard) could be done quite better before being posted, as a big load are just iterations of magic stuff brainstorms. So it would be great to know what type of information you value the most
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 13, 2018, 12:21:20 pm
So, word says that you personally look up atleast the OP of every suggestion thread
What are the types of suggestions threads that are the most useful/interesting to you toady? Those that explain in detail a certain subject and how could it be implemented in DF? Lists of features that use unexpected mechanics and original ideas?
He writes the ones he likes inside a folder i think i remember him saying as a source of inspiration for later if not exact transcriptions, so if he likes it it's filed away neat and pretty when he gets to it or it takes the brother's fancy (such as the raiding/hill dwarf arc)
Post by: Rubik on September 13, 2018, 01:59:22 pm
But I'm really interested in hearing what helps him the most from a suggestion thread, and which one inspire/are the most interesting to him
I know he's received help from the fans before, and even if I'm not going to measure the density of a kind of wood, I'd like to make a worthy suggestion thread sometime
Post by: Orangefriedegg on September 13, 2018, 06:24:30 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 13, 2018, 10:20:03 pm
Will you at some point change the game so animals other than wolves be domesticated over the worlds history? Such as in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dwjS_eI-lQCan you at least give us a hint of what you mean without having to watch a video? Cats are decended from wolves?
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on September 15, 2018, 10:09:58 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 17, 2018, 03:39:18 am
I hope the added relationship versions make it into fortress mode. Will we see children born out of wedlock and have the possibility of getting remarriages there (as well as spouses cheating on each other with lover(s) on the side)?
And: Is the age difference limitation for marriage lifted/modified in the process? (Sorry for a question that's very close to a suggestion).
And, even worse suggestiony: Is the rampant hist fig incest addressed in this process?
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 17, 2018, 03:55:42 am
And, even worse suggestiony: Is the rampant hist fig incest addressed in this process?[/color]
Game of Artifact Microline Thrones, narrated by George R. R. Martin hence all the horrific deaths.
Post by: Rockphed on September 17, 2018, 07:36:56 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 17, 2018, 07:46:31 am
I wish there were an easy way to get narration like the stories Toady tells of his worlds. I am sure that I could parse it out, but it never seems to click.What are you using to browse your Legends? Just the in-game Legends Mode?
That's hard, but if you look for something specific (like Toady did, searching for someone who remarried) you can usually find a good thread. Legends Viewer interface makes it pretty easy to get lost though. I find it works best combined with an external viewer like Legends Viewer.
Post by: Inarius on September 17, 2018, 09:44:28 am
But if you can manage to remember all the names and stuff, this kind of story is not unusual.
Post by: Beag on September 17, 2018, 02:41:24 pm
2. In the myth and magic update will possible magic include powers to learn about the histories of others without evening having to talk to them?
3. Further in the vain of personel histories would a possible kind of corruption in magical worlds include corruptions that replace one's memories of their life history with false ones? Like they don't remember their past correctly.
4. Will clothing and garments ever include pockets that can act as small containers we can use in adventure mode for small things like coins?
Post by: Kiloku on September 17, 2018, 02:57:40 pm
* Societal rules relating to multiple partners: Polyamory, Polygamy, Polyandry, Polygyny; with each civilization having their preferences in such concepts
* Societal rules relating to who raises the children: Both? Male parent? Female parent? Specialized "child raiser" professional? The whole village?
* Societal rules about whether it's acceptable to have children out of wedlock
* Whether marriage even exists formally or if people just happen to pair up (or group up) to live together. Or maybe even if they are perpetually solitary, which might mesh well with the idea of only one parent raising children.
* Societal rules about whether it's acceptable to divorce, remarry, have relations with other people when you have a spouse among other relationship issues.
I heard that there's some resistance to the idea, but adding sex as an action actors can do (just a simple "character x and character y mate/have sex") would make all of these very interesting and dynamic, especially with gossips, secrets, bragging, etc.
Do Dorfs and other sentients have a concept of privacy?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 17, 2018, 03:03:31 pm
Many things I'd like to see for relationships!Suggestions forum.
* Societal rules relating to multiple partners: Polyamory, Polygamy, Polyandry, Polygyny; with each civilization having their preferences in such concepts
* Societal rules relating to who raises the children: Both? Male parent? Female parent? Specialized "child raiser" professional? The whole village?
* Societal rules about whether it's acceptable to have children out of wedlock
* Whether marriage even exists formally or if people just happen to pair up (or group up) to live together. Or maybe even if they are perpetually solitary, which might mesh well with the idea of only one parent raising children.
* Societal rules about whether it's acceptable to divorce, remarry, have relations with other people when you have a spouse among other relationship issues.
I heard that there's some resistance to the idea, but adding sex as an action actors can do (just a simple "character x and character y mate/have sex") would make all of these very interesting and dynamic, especially with gossips, secrets, bragging, etc.
Do Dorfs and other sentients have a concept of privacy?
Post by: Kiloku on September 17, 2018, 03:14:28 pm
This is in response to the latest devlog, it always seemed to me that discussion/reaction to devlogs was here*snip*Suggestions forum.
Post by: Real_bang on September 17, 2018, 03:16:58 pm
2. Will we encounter weddings in adventure mode past worldgen?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 17, 2018, 04:17:35 pm
Yes. It can be.This is in response to the latest devlog, it always seemed to me that discussion/reaction to devlogs was here*snip*Suggestions forum.
But posting in lime green makes it a question for Toady to answer in the end of month q&a that also takes place in this thread. In which suggestions will tend to be directed to the suggestions thread. Better you know now than wait all month for 'maybe, sounds good, society arc is 5 years away. Write a suggestion because it'll be forgotten here'.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 17, 2018, 04:36:04 pm
1. In one of the next two mini arches- adventuring parties and dynamic villains will our adventurers be able to learn about the relationships and histories of the people we meet? Currently asking about family only tells us about official relationships not stuff like love interests or affairs.1: Probably. In order to exploit weaknesses/connections you typically have to know about them. I'd expect it to be a little harder than: "Hello gullible target! Please tell me about all your dirty secret so I can exploit them!". Alternative identities are definitely secret, but that doesn't mean it would be impossible to find out for a villain to exploit or law enforcement to catch a villain.
2. In the myth and magic update will possible magic include powers to learn about the histories of others without evening having to talk to them?
3. Further in the vain of personel histories would a possible kind of corruption in magical worlds include corruptions that replace one's memories of their life history with false ones? Like they don't remember their past correctly.
4. Will clothing and garments ever include pockets that can act as small containers we can use in adventure mode for small things like coins?
2: Not uncommon in fantasy, so the long term answer is probably that it should be possible, while the M&M arc response probably is "it's too early to say what's going to be in or not", unless it's definitely in the "later" category.
3: It probably ends up in the same hard to implement bucket as lies do. Forgetting is probably doable, though.
4: Ever is a very long time, so the answer is probably "yes, but no timeline".
1. Will we be able to do wedding ceremonies in fort mode maybe in designated church or temple or any meeting place?1. That's probably one if the things temples are going to be used for once they're fleshed out. However, that's probably too far away from the relations net currently worked on to appear in this development arc.
2. Will we encounter weddings in adventure mode past worldgen?
2. Again, probably. Once these things are among the things temples do, they'll probably apply to both modes. And it's probably not in this arc (Law/customs, perhaps?).
Post by: Lemunde on September 17, 2018, 08:57:49 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 18, 2018, 01:42:04 am
Will we ever get any tools or features to help deal with aquifers? Or is this meant to be an ever-present obstacle for the sake of realism?Screwpumps, cave-ins, obsidianization, smoothing, and and wall building is present already, as is the option to embark where none are present, as well as to remove them altogether.
If you have suggestions for other tools to deal with aquifers it's probably better to suggest them in a suggestion thread. That said, changes to machinery may introduce things that might be used for aquifer piercing, and may change how a screw pump is constructed.
Post by: Lemunde on September 18, 2018, 05:31:29 am
Post by: Fleeting Frames on September 18, 2018, 06:26:40 am
Post by: DG on September 18, 2018, 08:16:23 am
http://techalive.mtu.edu/meec/module04/GroundwaterSpeed.htm
Post by: falcc on September 18, 2018, 08:52:22 am
There's so many variations on this in other games and I know you usually go for the most realistic possible thing in a lot of situations. On the other hand since anything put in would probably have to be dealt with by the system once off-site items were better tracked, a lot of the more complicated systems in other games seem like they might overburden some of yours.
Will we get to set our adventurer's sexuality before the big wait?
Even if you don't make it to forming those relationships in adventure mode, having a player made villain tossed into the world while you're playing somewhere else would still be a lot cooler if they could be in a position to marry a monarch when you retire them. Or if you could just be a cool bisexual rat woman dragon slayer. I mean, that's the dream isn't it?
Post by: scourge728 on September 18, 2018, 09:00:04 am
Will there ever be volume restrictions? Physical encumbrance from anything besides armor/pure weight? Will "strapped to your body" items require string, sinew, or leather straps at some point in order to actually strap them on? Will adventurer item hauling (which sort of buggily exists) ever be more of a dragging across the ground thing, or a shoving to the next tile thing?I hope not
Post by: Renarin21 on September 19, 2018, 06:54:00 pm
2. Will villains have more occult motives (i.e. subverting/changing a religion, finding knowledge/enlightenment, etc.) or will it be more focused in material, concrete stuff for now?
3. Can NPCs be in a romantic relationship without it being sexual?
4. Will bi-, a-, and homosexual orientations make it as a minority of the population?
5. In the previous Future of the Fortress reply, you mentioned that permanent "death" for souls that have an afterlife is unlikely. However, will there be situations where a soul could be temporarily/indefinably contained or consumed without being obliterated?
5b. Could there be situations where a living creatures soul is altered or corrupted so as to affect it's natural fate, like lichdom, Nirvana-style enlightenment, demonic/angelic pacts, etc.?
6. Are night creatures planned that will psychically drain a life-force or soul to feed, as opposed to physical feeding or immediately killing their prey?
7. Will vampire cults be adopted to fit with new night creatures, or will some new system likely come into play? (if it comes into play at all?)
7b. If there will be night creature cults in the future, will there be any cults based around creatures that cannot transform followers like vampires can? What would motivate these cults?
8. In the magic update, could there be two magic systems that draw upon one type of mana, allowing one to power the other? (Like an innate wizard "charging" a magic item that would normally requires exposure to the same power the wizard uses, but through different means.)
9. Will certain symbols become recurring and socially relevant? (ex: in various ancient real-life cultures, horns are considered a sign of power, and some speculate that crowns symbolically replicate them)
10. Will people try to perform symbolically relevant actions? (such as the ancient Egyptians destroying the name of certain criminals post-execution, because they thought the name was a part of the soul)
11. You've stated that the initial method of restricting mythological knowledge will be to have races know about stuff that directly relate to them. Will we see "folk-tales" develop to fill in these gaps? Like humans blaming weeds on fairies because they don't know anything about them except they're nature-y and they exist?)
11b. Would these folk-tales (if they exist) be local (but spreadable), or on a broader scale, like a whole nation or race?
Post by: KittyTac on September 19, 2018, 09:14:49 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 19, 2018, 11:10:08 pm
Oh jeez, that's a lot for Toady to answer... the magic-related stuff is pretty common in fantasy stories, so it could randomly turn up.4 happens already. So that's one less to think about.
Quote
2. Will villains have more occult motives (i.e. subverting/changing a religion, finding knowledge/enlightenment, etc.) or will it be more focused in material, concrete stuff for now?You should make it clear what sort of time frame you're talking about. Most things you can think of are planned eventually.
In this one, you say "for now" so I assume you're talking about the next update, in which case, no. Religion and stuff will be post-mythgen. Of course, this update will make all such cunning, mystical plans possible in the future.
Post by: Eric Blank on September 20, 2018, 01:21:33 am
Has the age range changed?
Are interspecies relationships like those in one particular threetoe story (minus the childbearing i know thats going to be a nightmare for you) possible now?
What determines now when relationships will begin producing children (because it sounds like that can now happen out of wedlock)?
Is there a limit to the number of times a hist figure will marry?
with crazy families like the same woman producing many children with many different men, will those children see one another as (half)siblings?
If a historical figure has a claim on an artifact, and multiple children of multiple spouses, will each childs inheritance of that claim be tracked separately or together as if they were one family? If i gave it to the child of her first union would that be recognized by the child of her last union as being "returned to their family?"
Can extramarital affairs happen now? Its not clear in the devlog if that one particular elf was actually married to any of the relations they were involved in. I immediately see the potential of having multiple affairs breaking down into jealous murder of one another, and thats a fine starting point for a story or villainous revenge plot.
To what extent will modders be able to control relationships, at creature or entity levels?
Post by: Mel_Vixen on September 20, 2018, 12:23:34 pm
Adoption even with adults was long time a way to safe the line of succesion if a leader died and given that a ton of parents die in WG it would be nice to see some "lucky" children.
Also peoplemake friends now but what about enemies? Childhood abuse and such so they hate theyr parents?
Post by: Miuramir on September 21, 2018, 03:19:39 pm
All of those options require an excessive amount of work, planning, and/or cheating. I know some like the challenge but given that aquifers tend to dominate most of the landscape it would be better if there was just an easier way to work with them. Maybe when the magic system gets implemented we can summon lava or something, I guess.
You may be influenced here more by your typical choice of locations than you realize. Aquifers (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Aquifer) only appear in a limited range of loosely-consolidated sedimentary layers (generally, soils and sands), and usually only in layers that are not exposed to the surface on the side. So, if you embark in a lot of flat bottomlands or floodplains, sure there is likely to be a water table near the surface, as would be the case in real life. Civilizations that live in such areas don't tend to excavate much below ground level (see the rarity of basements in Florida, New Orleans, Dale, etc.) because it's a lot of extra engineering.
However, if you embark in more dwarvenly settings much higher up in elevation, digging into the side of a hard igneous rock cliff or hill above the level of whatever local stream you have, aquifers themselves are rare, and when encountered are a mid-game problem rather than an early one, after you've had plenty of time and space to set up industry and defense.
To put it in Tolkien terms... if you deliberately choose to settle in something more like Laketown (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/a/a4/Ss_hobbit-laketown-01.jpg) rather than the Lonely Mountain (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/b/b6/Erebor_gate.jpg), don't expect to be delving vast caverns without elaborate water-control measures.
Post by: Oreos on September 21, 2018, 07:37:54 pm
Post by: KittyTac on September 21, 2018, 08:15:22 pm
When will improvements to the speech engine be made?As in?
Post by: Oreos on September 21, 2018, 09:20:41 pm
When will improvements to the speech engine be made?As in?
In General
Post by: KittyTac on September 21, 2018, 09:52:08 pm
What kind of improvements? It's fine as it is.When will improvements to the speech engine be made?As in?
In General
Post by: Urist McVoyager on September 21, 2018, 11:51:43 pm
I plan on forming a D&D style party of my friends after I get comfortable with making parties in Adventure mode later on.
Post by: Ziusudra on September 22, 2018, 05:50:59 am
What kind of turn based Adventure mechanics are we going to see in the next release? I know we can use multi-move for most of it, but from what I've seen there are moves we can make, like actually moving to another tile, that can set off a turn. Will we get a way to hold off a turn until every member of our party has set their actions?Lime green is the convention.
I plan on forming a D&D style party of my friends after I get comfortable with making parties in Adventure mode later on.
Adventurer Mode isn't turn based. Everything takes a specific amount of time to happen. If your speed is higher than normal then moving takes less time. You can see this in action by moving through a crowd of talking NPCs. If you crawl then they talk more during a single movement - if you sprint then they talk less per move.
Post by: VislarRn on September 22, 2018, 07:32:13 am
It is not only about speech, but language system in general. I remember that Toady has had interest in linguistics and there are lots of future goals that are language related. (different languages having actual impact; places named after actual features; new words generated in-game; words having enough metadata to be used in prophecies; etc.)When will improvements to the speech engine be made?As in?
In General
Only after that, it is possible to start to grow some meat on the bones and fill it out enough to have more meaningful and unique speech related interactions. Right now, you can consider current system more of a placeholder.
When it's going to happen? I don't think we see much of it in nearby years because other development goals are more in focus at this point.
Post by: amymist on September 22, 2018, 12:20:38 pm
Post by: KittyTac on September 22, 2018, 07:27:59 pm
Will it ever be possible to control non-civilized entities?Probably? Sounds interesting.
But "ever" is a long time, be more specific to get something other than an exact copy of my reply.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 22, 2018, 07:31:14 pm
Post by: KittyTac on September 22, 2018, 07:34:32 pm
It's the idea to eventually be able to play as dragons and such. I'm not sure if megabeasts count as "civilized" by virtue of being intelligent and sometimes extracting tribute from civilized creatures. If you mean being able to play as an animal, like a lion or something, I don't know if that sort of thing is planned. You could probably get pretty close by using DFhack in the current game though, so who knows!I think they meant tribal animal people.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 22, 2018, 07:59:46 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 22, 2018, 08:07:06 pm
Post by: Fleeting Frames on September 22, 2018, 08:47:40 pm
(I don't know if someone could obtain a grudge against a friend with the now-changing personalities.)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 22, 2018, 09:29:04 pm
You mean, differently from how they currently progress through the values?I mean in worldgen. War Buddy and Lecture-Pal don't seem to have a distinct "progression" between one another. Is one more friendly than the other? Are either more/less than "friend"? Seems that the new system has a more open relationship setting based on actual events.
(I don't know if someone could obtain a grudge against a friend with the now-changing personalities.)
Hence, if in 125 two dorfs became rival athletes, would this prevent them becoming war buddies several years later (thus being unable to recreate a fairly common story trope)? Or does one replace the other? Or do they get both relationships?
Post by: iceball3 on September 23, 2018, 03:31:44 am
Quote
Athletic competitions were limited to intra-civilization participation, which wasn't great for forming links, so I looked at the trade routes and diplomatic state. Now a competition which occurs in a city linked to another peaceful civilization by trade can accept competitors from that civilization. After that was implemented, we even had a dwarf and elf become friends, before the war started. Of course, they bonded over a foot race, which the elf won, which didn't seem entirely fair in retrospect.Very exciting!
Do athletic events have any consideration for the body attributes and skills of those participating? Similarly, is anything on the short term chopping block of fleshing out such events (actor-audience veneration style relationships, etc) in the short term, or are they largely thematic placeholders for now, to get the inter-social network of the world more depth for the villain-plot related arcs?
Another question: concerning "villainous plots", are the long term plans for these specifically to develop antagonists that can make clearly defined epics that the player can easily role play into? Or will the moralities and intentions of ambitious individuals start to become more ambiguous and diverse as ongoing development gives such actors more reasons to perform at odds with larger authorities?
Post by: Inarius on September 23, 2018, 04:00:41 am
Post by: amymist on September 24, 2018, 05:57:18 pm
Nah, I just meant something like playing a giant leopard and terrorizing the local populace. I do appreciate the answers, though!It's the idea to eventually be able to play as dragons and such. I'm not sure if megabeasts count as "civilized" by virtue of being intelligent and sometimes extracting tribute from civilized creatures. If you mean being able to play as an animal, like a lion or something, I don't know if that sort of thing is planned. You could probably get pretty close by using DFhack in the current game though, so who knows!I think they meant tribal animal people.
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on September 24, 2018, 06:13:39 pm
Quote from: DF Devlog 2018-09-22
In particular, I'm almost feeling ready for Villain Conspiracy Attempt #2, but I'll likely toy around a bit more with crime and garden-variety corruption to make the situation even more amenable to larger-scale bad deeds and blackmail.
Yes, but what have you been doing on the game? :D
(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 24, 2018, 06:32:29 pm
And one small side question, is "the master of beasts" a implicit nod towards the defunct beastmaster noble or just coincidentally a fancy title name for this variable position padding out?
With so much war, diplomacy is a bit lacking, nice to see even if just worldgen something is being done and we might yet see the power of mutual friendship between leaders colluding their spy networks to prevail over evil plotting and schemes to divide them purposefully. Medieval NATO or the UN.
Post by: squamous on September 24, 2018, 08:20:26 pm
You mentioned thinking of upgrading necromancer and bandit lairs to be more extensive, but have you considered something similar for vampires or is that not on the roadmap for the upcoming updates?
Is a new civ/site type at all possible in the (relatively) near future? Not particularly expecting it but I've just been thinking about how a nomadic/tent-dwelling civ might function with the new mount mechanics.
If civs have flying mounts will they make contact with normally unreachable civs?
Will innate skills/stat boosts affect adventure mode party creation costs?
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on September 24, 2018, 09:22:09 pm
Will it ever be possible to control non-civilized entities?Toady's plan is to implement a framework for a variety of embark scenarios, from your standard fortress to a roadside inn to a penal colony and so on; as such, I see no reason that primitive tribes wouldn't be supported, at least with modding.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 24, 2018, 10:04:09 pm
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Will innate skills/stat boosts affect adventure mode party creation costs?Will be nice just to get these working for adventurers for a start. [Natural_Skill] doesn't work right now at all, possibly some others too.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9280
Post by: Death Dragon on September 24, 2018, 10:17:57 pm
When could NPC sites become moddable?
I think that if sites were moddable, you could ultimately save development time by essentially outsourcing the design work of NPC sites to community members who would probably come up with some interesting stuff. Of course, I know nothing about the code behind NPC sites, so I have no idea how difficult it would be to make them moddable, but could this potentially become more achievable after the map rewrite in the magic update?
Edit:
While we're on this topic, could you maybe give a little insight into how you code the procedural generation for sites like NPC dwarven fortresses?
Post by: KittyTac on September 24, 2018, 10:19:28 pm
Because it kinda fits with Squamous' questions:Magic procgen civs will have procgen sites, I think.
When could NPC sites become moddable?
I think that if sites were moddable, you could ultimately save development time by essentially outsourcing the design work of NPC sites to community members who would probably come up with some interesting stuff. Of course, I know nothing about the code behind NPC sites, so I have no idea how difficult it would be to make them moddable, but could this potentially become more achievable after the map rewrite in the magic update?
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on September 24, 2018, 11:00:25 pm
Do you have a source for this? They'll definitely need to be more generalized, but all I've seen from Toady is a statement that sites will eventually be more modular. I don't recall him giving a timeframe.Because it kinda fits with Squamous' questions:Magic procgen civs will have procgen sites, I think.
When could NPC sites become moddable?
I think that if sites were moddable, you could ultimately save development time by essentially outsourcing the design work of NPC sites to community members who would probably come up with some interesting stuff. Of course, I know nothing about the code behind NPC sites, so I have no idea how difficult it would be to make them moddable, but could this potentially become more achievable after the map rewrite in the magic update?
Post by: KittyTac on September 24, 2018, 11:08:17 pm
I don't remember.Do you have a source for this? They'll definitely need to be more generalized, but all I've seen from Toady is a statement that sites will eventually be more modular. I don't recall him giving a timeframe.Because it kinda fits with Squamous' questions:Magic procgen civs will have procgen sites, I think.
When could NPC sites become moddable?
I think that if sites were moddable, you could ultimately save development time by essentially outsourcing the design work of NPC sites to community members who would probably come up with some interesting stuff. Of course, I know nothing about the code behind NPC sites, so I have no idea how difficult it would be to make them moddable, but could this potentially become more achievable after the map rewrite in the magic update?
Post by: Urist McVoyager on September 25, 2018, 12:35:47 am
What kind of turn based Adventure mechanics are we going to see in the next release? I know we can use multi-move for most of it, but from what I've seen there are moves we can make, like actually moving to another tile, that can set off a turn. Will we get a way to hold off a turn until every member of our party has set their actions?Lime green is the convention.
I plan on forming a D&D style party of my friends after I get comfortable with making parties in Adventure mode later on.
Adventurer Mode isn't turn based. Everything takes a specific amount of time to happen. If your speed is higher than normal then moving takes less time. You can see this in action by moving through a crowd of talking NPCs. If you crawl then they talk more during a single movement - if you sprint then they talk less per move.
I know Adventure mode isn't turn based itself, but with this new party mode being directly inspired by D&D, there could be allowances and modes made. We already have some leeway there with the multi-attack option allowing us to queue up moves in a single turn. All I'm asking is will there be more mechanics in place to let everybody in the party set their moves before actually committing them?
Post by: KittyTac on September 25, 2018, 01:07:37 am
Post by: Knight Otu on September 25, 2018, 05:55:04 am
Will night trolls be classified as villains?It doesn't seem particularly likely for the first pass. Villainous plots right now seem to rely on connections between civilized people, and night trolls either aren't part of civilizations in the first place, or leave civilization once forcefully converted. Eventually though, I imagine that they will be able to become villains (or more ambiguous figures, for that matter).
Post by: Rockphed on September 25, 2018, 03:14:22 pm
Post by: scourge728 on September 25, 2018, 04:09:15 pm
I look forward to a bug where a villain is turned in to a night troll spouse and proceeds to terrorize the world from their lair.I see no bug, only emergent gameplay
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 25, 2018, 04:19:04 pm
That said, how does a necromancer be a villain? They're mentioned in most of the villain update posts. These are the guys who hang out with zombies and spend centuries by themselves writing books in their towers, with occasional time-out to teach someone else the joys of such an existence. Not much different from a night-troll really.Will night trolls be classified as villains?It doesn't seem particularly likely for the first pass. Villainous plots right now seem to rely on connections between civilized people, and night trolls either aren't part of civilizations in the first place, or leave civilization once forcefully converted. Eventually though, I imagine that they will be able to become villains (or more ambiguous figures, for that matter).
What exactly are necromancers getting up to as villains? Do they have more outside interaction now? Hanging out in taverns making future zombie candidate false friendships and such?
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on September 25, 2018, 06:19:19 pm
That said, how does a necromancer be a villain? They're mentioned in most of the villain update posts. These are the guys who hang out with zombies and spend centuries by themselves writing books in their towers, with occasional time-out to teach someone else the joys of such an existence. Not much different from a night-troll really.Ah, but unlike a night-troll a necromancer can pass for your ordinary Joe. It's rather harder for a one-eyed freak with non-Euclidean limbs to hang about inconspicuously in a tavern. Furthermore, I imagine a necromancer entity would treated from the out as a criminal network. You'd have the founder, with his various acolytes acting as lieutenants, all presiding over a network of mortal agents. The nonstop writing could replaced, or at least interspersed, with endless plotting to retrieve artifacts, "acquire" valuable specimens, or the like.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 25, 2018, 11:09:10 pm
Maybe we'll see letter writing introduced. That way necromancers can stay at home and do all their scheming by mail.That said, how does a necromancer be a villain? They're mentioned in most of the villain update posts. These are the guys who hang out with zombies and spend centuries by themselves writing books in their towers, with occasional time-out to teach someone else the joys of such an existence. Not much different from a night-troll really.Ah, but unlike a night-troll a necromancer can pass for your ordinary Joe. It's rather harder for a one-eyed freak with non-Euclidean limbs to hang about inconspicuously in a tavern. Furthermore, I imagine a necromancer entity would treated from the out as a criminal network. You'd have the founder, with his various acolytes acting as lieutenants, all presiding over a network of mortal agents. The nonstop writing could replaced, or at least interspersed, with endless plotting to retrieve artifacts, "acquire" valuable specimens, or the like.
They're represented with a night beast symbol Ñ right now, so I always imagined them as evil looking liche dudes who don't blend in well.
--
Another question:
Are elves getting any more positions?
They don't have many basic positions, unlike dwarves and the new variable position humans and goblins, so scheming network opportunities would seem to be fewer.
Although, maybe it suits the mood to have elves fairly resiliant to the rest of the world's scheming shenanigans (besides all those who wander far from the home tree to live the dream of being a naked troupe dancer).
Post by: KittyTac on September 26, 2018, 01:57:41 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 26, 2018, 03:39:26 am
Will we be able to play villains?Yes. Isn't that in the devblog already? Has been covered in fotf at least. You can give orders to your party members, which can be of the villanous kind. So essentially you can set up a bandit camp and play warlord.
Post by: KittyTac on September 26, 2018, 03:57:55 am
Time to violence the entire world with style, then.Will we be able to play villains?Yes. Isn't that in the devblog already? Has been covered in fotf at least. You can give orders to your party members, which can be of the villanous kind. So essentially you can set up a bandit camp and play warlord.
Post by: h3lblad3 on September 26, 2018, 05:00:14 am
Are you planning on working on Guilds and/or Societies relatively soon, now that you're trying to create reasons for people to form relationships?
Post by: KittyTac on September 26, 2018, 05:01:26 am
I may have missed this, and I'm sorry if I have, but...Might have to wait until Laws & Customs (~6 years).
Are you planning on working on Guilds and/or Societies relatively soon, now that you're trying to create reasons for people to form relationships?
Post by: Real_bang on September 27, 2018, 02:39:37 am
What is your progress with villain update for this week? :D
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 27, 2018, 03:54:07 am
Since this week will be fotf devlog ill cheat the system and askI would laugh if he added a duplicate of the entire fotf answer at the end to answer your question...
What is your progress with villain update for this week? :D
Post by: Thundercraft on September 27, 2018, 01:53:43 pm
(Currently, this is impossible to do. But, considering the structure and description of the Purring Maggot, I have to wonder if it was originally envisioned to be the larval stage of a monstrous insect.)
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 28, 2018, 03:32:26 am
I may have missed this, and I'm sorry if I have, but...Might have to wait until Laws & Customs (~6 years).
Are you planning on working on Guilds and/or Societies relatively soon, now that you're trying to create reasons for people to form relationships?
Maybe not entirely, there's usually always the founding elements that Toady tends to seed into their work and a 'society' of assassins/consorting night creatures like vampire covens and/or villianous folk to target people in plots may be a slight implementation of that to test co-ordinated internal actions and presence of a group inside a society.
They were adding upon the data structures in 08/18/2018 'ths devlog report to give some as they say "fleshing out and flavour" so people in town's aren't all on their lonesome.
Post by: Knight Otu on September 28, 2018, 04:54:57 am
Are there plans to eventually allow for creatures with a child stage (such as insect larva) that are drastically different from the adult stage?Eventually is a long time. ;) I'm pretty sure I've seen this mentioned as being planned, but that transformations and the like can be tricky. Since these things are important for insects and other creatures to work, they should be planned. However, I can't find a definite mention that they are planned.
(Currently, this is impossible to do. But, considering the structure and description of the Purring Maggot, I have to wonder if it was originally envisioned to be the larval stage of a monstrous insect.)
Post by: DG on September 28, 2018, 08:09:24 am
From 2009 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21498.msg399576#msg399576
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Quote from: Ampersand
Question for future creature polymorphism. Will it be capable of changing the morph of a creature at a given trigger?
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Once it can handle the transition from, say, a tadpole to a toad, then there wouldn't be as many restrictions, but I'm not handling that for a while. It'll need to tie in to hybridization, weird minotaur/centaurization stuff, and polymorph wound/inv retention, that kind of thing. Probably an extension of the body part categories or something.
From 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=30026.msg1047755#msg1047755
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Quote from: JoshuaFH
In the future, will it be possible to create creatures that 'transform' upon receiving certain stimuli, or after meeting some condition? Like, a snake that transforms into a bird and back? Or a caterpillar that undergoes the various stages of cacoon to a butterfly?
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There are a boatload of problems that I think were brought up, but it's something that'll likely happen as we move toward magic and also work out how things like metamorphosis and eggs and all that work out.
From 2011 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=84398.msg2305361#msg2305361
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Quote from: Neoskel
Were-critters involve temporary transformations into different creatures, with at least a tail being added to the body in most cases and lost upon turning back. Does this mean that natural metamorphosis will be available? Things like tadpoles gaining legs and losing tails when they change into frogs or mantis nymphs gaining wings as they become adults.
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It'll start to lay some of the groundwork for that, but I'm not going to jump into that just yet. Wounds don't need to be preserved as much, and there isn't anything gradually about it, so it's easier to the the werebeasts.
Post by: MinerMan60101 on September 28, 2018, 08:14:20 pm
Post by: Fleeting Frames on September 28, 2018, 08:29:43 pm
Toady's response on graphics is probably fitting here (don't have link to it handy rn); it seems there's community effort on that already in hand so can leave it later.
(That's not to say something like it won't be done, such as with building renaming or management, just not a priority.)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 28, 2018, 08:47:45 pm
Why don't you integrate the quality of life features present in dfhack (toggling priorities, planning mode, sand presence on embark to name a few) into the base game?Almost all of it is likely to get into the game eventually, (or not be needed due to the implmentation of other systems. Of course, they'll be systems made to integrate with the game and be future proof so probably quite different (if only internally) to the features Dfhack currently offers.
Toady's qol updates are often based on player suggestions. Dfhack team make qol updates based on what players want. It's the same thing.
Post by: MinerMan60101 on September 30, 2018, 10:18:16 am
Post by: Putnam on September 30, 2018, 01:53:22 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on September 30, 2018, 03:19:04 pm
Post by: GenericUser on September 30, 2018, 07:04:57 pm
On a related note, would plotters be ‘greedy’ and do opportunite things like steal a gold ring while carrying out a plot?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 01, 2018, 01:09:22 pm
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on October 01, 2018, 06:08:04 pm
Post by: Toady One on October 01, 2018, 06:16:28 pm
Quote from: Real_bang
What are you planning on doing from the devlog after the villain arc?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7845973#msg7845973
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7846284#msg7846284
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7846290#msg7846290
etc.
Basically, yeah, we have the armies and siege stuff left, time is obviously *feeling* tight after that horrible Summer, but it's important to leave everybody with a decent DF, so we could do it all. I'm not 100% decided. Want to fix more bugs, handle stress and other large issues as well.
Quote from: George_Chickens
Are there any ways planned for the counter-use of magic or defence against it? With the description of extremely powerful spells, it seems probable that a mature fort may piss off the wrong sorcerers and get wiped off the face of the earth with a catastrophically powerful hex.
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7846510#msg7846510
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7846512#msg7846512
He he, yeah, certainly if dwarves still exist by the time you start playing, they were doing something right, even if it was just laying low while the surface world was being scoured by magical forces. Presumably resistance/counters/etc. will enter into it.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Do you think it would be possible to simply adventurer mode into a set of rules that could be used as a pen-and-paper roleplaying game? On a purely mechanical level, for things like movement, combat, generic skill checks and so on.
If so, do you think it would be possible to data from generated worlds to use as source material for the game? For example, maps, a bestiary, and so on.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7846755#msg7846755
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7846892#msg7846892
Yeah, as PatrikLundell implies, I got into video games for a reason, and one of them was data processing. The checks/etc. are generally beyond what people would tolerate at the table. That's not to say you couldn't make a pen-and-paper game that aligned vaguely with what we are going for, but I'm not sure how much different it would be from one of the more intricate ones that already exists (aside from whatever setting-based stuff we have, which we never really focused on.)
Quote from: TrueWolves
Do you think it will ever be possible for a character, object, or any other entity to cross between completely different generated worlds? Say you have more then one world generated and fuzzy magic:tm: happens while exploring some plane's edge or by some god's actions, or maybe a trait intrinsic to the character's own traits via race or adventurer reaction/status.
If so, do you think they'll be able to retain any of their own world-specific traits or skills, or find themselves always at the mercy of a new universe?
Could a world ever be flagged during creation to specifically pull someone(random or otherwise) from another world file to turn in to some sort of god-like or at least unusual historical figure? Obviously this would make the world much less reproducible unless you always used the same two seeds in a row without playing the previous world, but would such a thing ever be possible?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7848511#msg7848511
To add to that reply, we had some weird ideas in the past, like trying to have a shared afterlife between our games where some universal format would be uploaded. This aligns also with the notion of editors, somewhat. So it's the sort of thing that could theoretically be explored, but also isn't a focus of what we're doing. Still, it might end up on the table, especially if, to aid editing, we end up with something like an "export universal def" option for generated objects, for use later in the editors. Those text files would might be transferrable, but, as in PatrikLundell's example, nothing gets around conflicting names, etc., so something has to give.
Quote from: Oreos
Playing in adventure mode i have noticed vampires are a bit currently dull. Vampires in mythology have always been powerful beings with many powers and abilities so Will Vampires get some new abilities like hypnosis, thrall creation, and polymorphism? And if so Would Vampire villians have different plot options from regular villians if they did have typical vampire powers?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7849258#msg7849258
Tinnucorch: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7849519#msg7849519
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7849577#msg7849577
Villains should start to respect their powers as we go, perhaps even this time (that was the intention with vampire and necromancer villains, anyway.)
Quote from: Oreos
With the new villains you are working on, I was wondering will villainous plots would form around adventure mode characters and their party, and maybe even with in the player's party (Betrayal)?
Also Will we every see adventure mode fast travel?
The focus when we get there will be on the adventurer investigating villains, and the adventurer being a villain. Now, companions might be villains or villainous agents (if this isn't a party you created yourself), but that'll restrict their ability to act, generally, since they are stuck with you (when you aren't sending them away.) When it comes to intraparty intrigue and party infiltration, probably not going to do anything specific with that, on account of time, though we do want the villain to act against the player adventurer in overt ways at a bare minimum.
Regarding fast travel:
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7850662#msg7850662
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7851145#msg7851145
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7851459#msg7851459
Quote from: Real_bang
1. Will you be able to marry someone in adventure mode?
2. Will you be able to set links with your adventure party members (childhood friend/war buddy/wife/brother/etc.)
Tinnucorch: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7850502#msg7850502
Demonic Gophers: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7850521#msg7850521
Quote from: Button
1. Are you touching fortress mode relationships before the next release? Most notably, will "childhood friends" and "war buddies" become relationships that can occur in fort mode too, or just in worldgen? Or are they a shorthand for just different circumstances under which people can become friends?
2. Do you take personalities & values into account when making worldgen friendships, or just in-game friendships?
3. Is remarriage (after being widowed or abandoned due to night creature transformation) in the cards for the next release? Worldgen, fort-mode, both?
Glad to hear that the issue of historical figure immigrants all being already-married is likely to come to an end soon.
1. It's shorthand currently; fort mode theoretically already has childhood friendships (not that friendships are working well generally, and children are perhaps especially broken), though it doesn't really have a war buddy notion, people in squads are often closer to each other (adding socializing on raids would of course be a plus.) Overall, we are hoping to get to some of the world gen ideas translated over to fort mode, but stuff like divorce and affairs and so on will be more important for what we're working on.
2. Mostly not; there's a speed issue, and also the fact that worldgen figures not in decision-making positions often don't have personalities initialized due to the mem overhead.
3. Yeah, it's in world gen now, and should also appear in fort mode before I'm through.
Quote from: golemgunk
if we're going to see relationships sour, does that mean divorce is going to be an option for unhappy couples?
Yeah, divorce is now in world gen, and anticipated as we move through to the other modes, once we get there for this release. I haven't changed much about fort mode relationships yet.
Quote from: Taffer
When I listen to DF talk and watch the videos where you talk about the upcoming mythology update, it's hard not to notice all the references to randomly generated creatures. I quite enjoy modding creatures in Dwarf Fortress, but I can't edit or change any of the randomly generated creatures the game creates as it is and I'm worried that this is going to get worse and worse as development progresses. Will we be able to edit the tags of randomly generated creatures? Change what tags are associated to which sphere, for example? This question could be generalized to randomly generated anything, but I'm personally primarily interested in the creatures.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7851441#msg7851441
Tinnucorch: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7851453#msg7851453
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7851455#msg7851455
Tinnucorch: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7851747#msg7851747
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7851773#msg7851773
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7851784#msg7851784
Quote from: voliol
With the villains update, can we expect already existing criminal deeds (i.e. stealing, snatching) to be updated to work with the new framework? Something like thieves not actually having to leave the site and come back when trying to steal an artifact they’ve spotted in the fort.
There's going to be some incorporation, broadly, but weird behavior like you described might persist and become even more strange until we fix things a bit.
Quote from: Rubik
So, word says that you personally look up atleast the OP of every suggestion thread
What are the types of suggestions threads that are the most useful/interesting to you toady? Those that explain in detail a certain subject and how could it be implemented in DF? Lists of features that use unexpected mechanics and original ideas?
I myself want to write some up, but sometimes I feel like what I write (or see in the suggestion's thread, for that regard) could be done quite better before being posted, as a big load are just iterations of magic stuff brainstorms. So it would be great to know what type of information you value the most
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7853164#msg7853164
Rubik (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7853231#msg7853231
It depends on the topic. The simple usability suggestions can sometimes just go in as-stated and then it's best if it's just clear what you're asking for and why so I can think about the larger context. When we get over into feature suggestions, what I generally look for is the underlying problem that the player has (if any), since I'm (often) in a better position to come up with a solution that works for me, and the specifics don't matter sometimes in that case. For other kinds of suggestions, ones that are real-world directed, say, for dyes or something, highly specific, sourced information is best -- if I know there's some legit pathway for a given color or whatever, then I can think of how it might be implemented and have the material/process etc. information at hand. Certain suggestions, like the magic ones you mention, are often suggesting a particular fixed paradigm, which I'm obviously not going to adopt if you look at the dev goals, but even then, it helps me know what people are interested in, which matters for features especially when I have, say, two powers I could add, time for one, and no strong preference myself.
So it comes down to how the suggestion integrates with the dev process, pretty much, saying which is sort of a tautology, but unavoidable.
But yeah, I read every OP, and often more. it's impossible at this point to read every reply; fortunately OPs will often incorporate good discussion, or new threads will be created based on them, so I think we're collectively doing pretty well! Hard for the development to catch up, though, naturally.
Quote from: Orangefriedegg
Will you at some point change the game so animals other than wolves be domesticated over the worlds history?
Dozebôm Lolumzalìs: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7854840#msg7854840
We don't even do (paleo-)wolves->dogs, at least not in a different form than cats or chickens or cavies are currently. Not sure that the current way will change much. However, one of the focuses of myths is "where did domestic animals come from?" and I suspect at some point it'll also be in our generated myths. At that point, things will probably become more diverse at certain settings, though with the domestic animal raw files the way they are, I suspect vanilla-settings DF will generally prefer to use those, with some flavor here and there.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
I hope the added relationship versions make it into fortress mode. Will we see children born out of wedlock and have the possibility of getting remarriages there (as well as spouses cheating on each other with lover(s) on the side)?
And: Is the age difference limitation for marriage lifted/modified in the process? (Sorry for a question that's very close to a suggestion).
And, even worse suggestiony: Is the rampant hist fig incest addressed in this process?
Yeah, anticipating that all the marriage/lover changes will make it over.
The age limit was modified in fact -- when I was looking through legends at some point, I found a 176 year old unmarried elf, and it turned out there was simply nobody available in the +/-10 age range (and of course, no elves in that age band could ever be produced again, so that was it.) So now it uses +/-max(10,min(age_1,age_2)/2) (edit: corrected), with extra fudging over time if match-making fails.
I didn't change anything about the relationship checker, aside from the half-sibling stuff.
Quote from: Beag
1. In one of the next two mini arches- adventuring parties and dynamic villains will our adventurers be able to learn about the relationships and histories of the people we meet? Currently asking about family only tells us about official relationships not stuff like love interests or affairs.
2. In the myth and magic update will possible magic include powers to learn about the histories of others without evening having to talk to them?
3. Further in the vain of personel histories would a possible kind of corruption in magical worlds include corruptions that replace one's memories of their life history with false ones? Like they don't remember their past correctly.
4. Will clothing and garments ever include pockets that can act as small containers we can use in adventure mode for small things like coins?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7855991#msg7855991
In particular, I agree with the assessment on 3. It might be possible to stick an identity on them, the ones we have now, but set up in such a way that they also fall for it and cannot turn it off voluntarily. This might effectively cause them to live a different life, at least to some extent, as we improve agent behavior overall.
Quote from: Kiloku
Many things I'd like to see for relationships!
<snip>
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7855981#msg7855981
Agree that this is precisely the sort of thing we're hoping the customs/etc. release will be defining/generating.
Quote from: Real_bang
1. Will we be able to do wedding ceremonies in fort mode maybe in designated church or temple or any meeting place?
2. Will we encounter weddings in adventure mode past worldgen?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7855991#msg7855991
Yeah, hard to say when -- festivals haven't made it out of world gen yet. Law/customs/etc. has assumed as heavy a burden as the magic release.
Quote from: Lemunde
Will we ever get any tools or features to help deal with aquifers? Or is this meant to be an ever-present obstacle for the sake of realism?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7856215#msg7856215
Lemunde (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7856279#msg7856279
Fleeting Frames: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7856309#msg7856309
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7856353#msg7856353
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7858564#msg7858564
I have the general sense that different aquifer speeds might be in order. Right now they are (kind of, not really) like these artesian aquifer pictures where the water is like SPLOOSH, but there's the other notion of just, like, a somewhat drippy cavern that might need some occasional helping and some pumps down below. The latter would be pretty easy to set up, probably, with little 1/7s of water just popping out every so often, piling up if they aren't dealt with. I've forgotten what's correct now, having not studied aquifers for many many years; I'm not sure that ground water speed illustration in the reply there encapsulates the positive pressure situation once the water is given a route out into open air, since that water literally spouts from sandstone into the air like a constant geyser. That suggests that all possibilities in the range are permitted depending on the other layers of rock (which we could just fudge, pretty much), but I'd defer to a hydrogeologist, or related professional, or anybody.
Quote from: falcc
Completely unrelated to anything you're working on now, what are your ideal plans for carrying items? Will there ever be volume restrictions? Physical encumbrance from anything besides armor/pure weight? Will "strapped to your body" items require string, sinew, or leather straps at some point in order to actually strap them on? Will adventurer item hauling (which sort of buggily exists) ever be more of a dragging across the ground thing, or a shoving to the next tile thing? What are your pie in the sky kind of hopes for it and what do you think are the big hurdles?
There's so many variations on this in other games and I know you usually go for the most realistic possible thing in a lot of situations. On the other hand since anything put in would probably have to be dealt with by the system once off-site items were better tracked, a lot of the more complicated systems in other games seem like they might overburden some of yours.
Will we get to set our adventurer's sexuality before the big wait?
Even if you don't make it to forming those relationships in adventure mode, having a player made villain tossed into the world while you're playing somewhere else would still be a lot cooler if they could be in a position to marry a monarch when you retire them. Or if you could just be a cool bisexual rat woman dragon slayer. I mean, that's the dream isn't it?
We had a side project some years back that had little paper doll inventories and required absolutely everything you'd need to carry stuff; adhesives, knots, all of whatever. It was marginally annoying, but also sort of cool. Adventure mode has been slowly leaning that way. So I'm tempted to go all the way over in that mode, as long as the controls don't get more nested and annoying (so there'd need to be some automated steps to the related actions by default.) I don't think dwarf mode could support it easily, all the junk items especially. Pushing and dragging are all fair and fun, and they make for good ruin puzzles and so forth, or at least traditional ones. Having an item block a tile can be a bit annoying, but we have the constructed tiles that track items which might work out, for items that should block. This also fits in with those item pile tiles and moving fortress pieces and all that, ways to respect volume and items on the map; some of that's very hard, though.
I'm not sure all of what we'll get to as the character creation screen gets updated, but with all the relationship stuff going on, it's certainly getting to be a more reasonable time -- the main element of forming romantic/etc. relationships in adv mode will still be missing, so I wouldn't guarantee it, since it would be a retirement option, as you say.
Quote from: Renarin21
1. Will villains and their subordinates try to manipulate other faction's/peoples motives, to play people against one another or get them to do dirty work without realizing it?
2. Will villains have more occult motives (i.e. subverting/changing a religion, finding knowledge/enlightenment, etc.) or will it be more focused in material, concrete stuff for now?
3. Can NPCs be in a romantic relationship without it being sexual?
4. Will bi-, a-, and homosexual orientations make it as a minority of the population?
5. In the previous Future of the Fortress reply, you mentioned that permanent "death" for souls that have an afterlife is unlikely. However, will there be situations where a soul could be temporarily/indefinably contained or consumed without being obliterated?
5b. Could there be situations where a living creatures soul is altered or corrupted so as to affect it's natural fate, like lichdom, Nirvana-style enlightenment, demonic/angelic pacts, etc.?
6. Are night creatures planned that will psychically drain a life-force or soul to feed, as opposed to physical feeding or immediately killing their prey?
7. Will vampire cults be adopted to fit with new night creatures, or will some new system likely come into play? (if it comes into play at all?)
7b. If there will be night creature cults in the future, will there be any cults based around creatures that cannot transform followers like vampires can? What would motivate these cults?
8. In the magic update, could there be two magic systems that draw upon one type of mana, allowing one to power the other? (Like an innate wizard "charging" a magic item that would normally requires exposure to the same power the wizard uses, but through different means.)
9. Will certain symbols become recurring and socially relevant? (ex: in various ancient real-life cultures, horns are considered a sign of power, and some speculate that crowns symbolically replicate them)
10. Will people try to perform symbolically relevant actions? (such as the ancient Egyptians destroying the name of certain criminals post-execution, because they thought the name was a part of the soul)
11. You've stated that the initial method of restricting mythological knowledge will be to have races know about stuff that directly relate to them. Will we see "folk-tales" develop to fill in these gaps? Like humans blaming weeds on fairies because they don't know anything about them except they're nature-y and they exist?)
11b. Would these folk-tales (if they exist) be local (but spreadable), or on a broader scale, like a whole nation or race?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7857553#msg7857553
1. To some extent. There's only so much motivation tracking, so we can't do a lot with this right now, but for a few things like war/peace we have stuff to work with.
2. As Shonai_Dweller replied, will have to wait.
3. Not at present.
4. Already done, as Shonai_Dweller stated.
5. Unclear what's going in at first, but we have the souls sitting there as movable objects, so I imagine something will come up (even if possession etc. is more likely initially). One just has to square these odd permanent dispositions of the soul with any notion of eternal judgment, if both exist.
5b. Likely, and enlightenment at least is already in the prototype.
6/7/7b. It's not clear exactly what we'll have, of course, but we'll have the whole menu of new effects to choose from. There are already lots of strange new creatures in the prototype, and we'll see what survives or gets added during the transition. There are lots of shades between religions and cults and that sort of thing; motivation seems only somewhat important after a bit. The vampire clearly has something to offer (even if they never actually pay out right now), and I'm not sure it'll be as clear with other night creatures -- at the same time, vampires are all created fresh right now, and some night creatures could be as old as the hills (or older), so more traditional religious views might apply. For fresh, new night creatures, there'd need to be something else.
8. Hard to say what we'll get the first time through, but the system would support it easily -- power sources/pools are decoupled from their uses, so could be linked up in any way (not just 1:2 but 2:1 as well, sometimes, etc., for hybrid/advanced/researched stuff.) Of course, the myths will build threads through them; for that reason, my first guess is that common pools will be somewhat more likely than individual pools for each type of magic. However, it should be a pleasant mess.
9. We have entity symbols now, they just aren't done well and don't feed into a larger symbolism. Magic symbolism will probably come in before cultural symbolism, just because of the release order and the likelihood that e.g. any form of 'alchemy' or 'potion-making' will require that sort of thing.
10. Sounds a reasonable enough suggestion for when we have more to work with.
11,11b. Haven't thought much about hybrid systems here; if the magic=zero slider works out and each society gets its own (false) myths, there's no reason to think this couldn't be applied elsewhere, as we currently do in a small way with the false prophets. A lot of the myths are going to be oriented around answering the big questions, but only the ones being asked, and it's quite possible that e.g. the humans will not have an immediate answer to "where do elves come from?" when they look at their own (true) myth branch. So, yeah, I agree it would be entertaining to explore what that means. Would also be interesting to explore what happens if the true becomes apparent as mythical forces cross these boundaries.
Post by: Toady One on October 01, 2018, 06:16:55 pm
Quote
Quote from: Eric Blankso what are the new limitations on relationships going to be like?
Has the age range changed?
Are interspecies relationships like those in one particular threetoe story (minus the childbearing i know thats going to be a nightmare for you) possible now?
What determines now when relationships will begin producing children (because it sounds like that can now happen out of wedlock)?
Is there a limit to the number of times a hist figure will marry?
with crazy families like the same woman producing many children with many different men, will those children see one another as (half)siblings?
If a historical figure has a claim on an artifact, and multiple children of multiple spouses, will each childs inheritance of that claim be tracked separately or together as if they were one family? If i gave it to the child of her first union would that be recognized by the child of her last union as being "returned to their family?"
Can extramarital affairs happen now? Its not clear in the devlog if that one particular elf was actually married to any of the relations they were involved in. I immediately see the potential of having multiple affairs breaking down into jealous murder of one another, and thats a fine starting point for a story or villainous revenge plot.
To what extent will modders be able to control relationships, at creature or entity levels?Quote from: pikachu17So, apparently, children can now be born out of wedlock. Can a modder modify the likelihood of such an event, possibly by a new ethic?
Age range answered above -- currently running with +/-max(10,min(age_1,age_2)/2) (edit: corrected) instead of +/-10, with some tweaks.
Haven't done interspecies relationships yet, but there aren't really any significant barriers to it (if we ignore children, as you say.)
Relationships can produce children when they start up; it assumes everybody is sexually active. That may change when we get to more of the customs stuff in the future.
There's no limit on the number of marriages.
Yeah, they can recognize half-siblings, but as you can imagine, with farther relationships it becomes more tenuous.
The family variable passes as it has; the older partner in a marriage controls the id number, and the id number passes from mother to child. So if a child is born out of wedlock, that child will be in the mother's family. When there is a marriage, I don't recollect if the children are all adopted in -- that would be proper enough. But yeah, it's possible on a second marriage that the mother (if younger) switches families, and then siblings-by-name might not be in the same family (if there were adult children from a previous marraige), but that's also (vaguely) correct.
Yeah, there are extramarital affairs. Due to worldgen memory restrictions (which can be loosened, but it would be a minor pain to write and maintain the optional extension structures), a person can have one spouse and two lovers at any given time, though without customs to establish baselines, I just made the chances generally lower for a person to get a second or third partner.
Also, as there are no customs to control things, I didn't add any placeholder tags here, but I'm open to suggestions if people want to tweak it a bit before those years pass.
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
Will people adopt other people as family/succession?
Adoption even with adults was long time a way to safe the line of succesion if a leader died and given that a ton of parents die in WG it would be nice to see some "lucky" children.
Also peoplemake friends now but what about enemies? Childhood abuse and such so they hate theyr parents?
Haven't added adoption specifically. Of course, the demand for adoption in fort mode especially has been ongoing, and I'd really ought to do it. But it hasn't happened yet.
I haven't touched the personal enemy side of things yet, aside from a few particular cases over relationships and athletics. More is quite possible once the villains are rolling, but we'll have to see.
Quote from: Oreos
When will improvements to the speech engine be made?
VislarRN: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7858917#msg7858917
Quote from: Urist McVoyager
What kind of turn based Adventure mechanics are we going to see in the next release? I know we can use multi-move for most of it, but from what I've seen there are moves we can make, like actually moving to another tile, that can set off a turn. Will we get a way to hold off a turn until every member of our party has set their actions?
I plan on forming a D&D style party of my friends after I get comfortable with making parties in Adventure mode later on.
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7858894#msg7858894
Urist McVoyager (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859709#msg7859709
Yeah, it's not completely finalized yet, but you should have the ability to set everybody's move before committing when you go over to tactical party mode.
Quote from: amymist
Will it ever be possible to control non-civilized entities?
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859219#msg7859219
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859221#msg7859221
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859224#msg7859224
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859236#msg7859236
amymist (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859488#msg7859488
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859641#msg7859641
We were hoping at some point to do dragons and whatever else, yeah; it was in those distant future goals back when we posted those. Clearly, it was silly to have posted them, since it has been twelve years and no dragon players (without modding, anyway.) But it is still the dream.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Can relationships change over time? I'm thinking that rival athletes being thrown into war together and becoming war buddies is the plot of at least half a dozen movies.
Fleeting Frames: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859257#msg7859257
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859270#msg7859270
It's really data-light right now, so I just let everything sit without overwrites or tracking changes, aside from the romantic stuff. As stated somewhere else in here, it's possible to extend that optionally for certain people that become interesting without getting into mem trouble, but it was enough of a speed bump at the time that I just blew through it. Would like to have some more dynamics in w.g., though, yeah.
Quote from: iceball3
Do athletic events have any consideration for the body attributes and skills of those participating? Similarly, is anything on the short term chopping block of fleshing out such events (actor-audience veneration style relationships, etc) in the short term, or are they largely thematic placeholders for now, to get the inter-social network of the world more depth for the villain-plot related arcs?
Another question: concerning "villainous plots", are the long term plans for these specifically to develop antagonists that can make clearly defined epics that the player can easily role play into? Or will the moralities and intentions of ambitious individuals start to become more ambiguous and diverse as ongoing development gives such actors more reasons to perform at odds with larger authorities?
Athletic events look at skills when they are available. We mostly don't have particular atts available (if I recollect, they aren't generated in w.g. to save room), though we do have creature bodies themselves. Mostly I'm just using them for link building now, yeah.
Yeah, "villainous plots" is the current framing, and a handy enough way to think about it, and the starting plots are going to be more on the corrupt/etc. side of things, but even now, some of it can be viewed more as "spy vs. spy" or as a tale of vengeance (which has whatever moral shade) or paranoia. The mechanics will apply to everybody operating in this sphere over time, as things become more interesting. It's just easier to start with the straightforward stuff, and easier to make it player-facing.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
With the implication of multiple (before, the different states only reacted with themselves in peacetime and often had no knowledge of others without a war or player fortress trading/buggy hill dwarf links) trade routes, introductions and bondings mean that we will have positive relations (to ruin with dwarven ingenuity and game exploits like petty goods seizing, raiding etc.) that might repair themselves over time while things happen off map during the process of a non worldgen fortress?
And one small side question, is "the master of beasts" a implicit nod towards the defunct beastmaster noble or just coincidentally a fancy title name for this variable position padding out?
With so much war, diplomacy is a bit lacking, nice to see even if just worldgen something is being done and we might yet see the power of mutual friendship between leaders colluding their spy networks to prevail over evil plotting and schemes to divide them purposefully. Medieval NATO or the UN.
The w.g. trade routes have been there for a long time so were easy to use. It's hard to say precisely what kind of link formation will carry into post w.g. at this time; we're trying to keep things as homogenous as we can, but post w.g. economics specifically is a danger zone. Although I'm not sure I understood specifically what you meant about repair. And yeah, I would like to have more positive diplomacy as we go... I'm not sure we're there yet.
There was the old dungeon master noble, and it uses one of the same responsibilities that one had. Master of beasts was just a generic way to rephrase some of the real-world positions like "master of horse" and so forth; I could have queried the available pet/mount races to form the name, but I discovered that those aren't compiled at the civ level at that stage of world gen. I could have peaked at the mounts in the capital, but at some point I was just speeding through. So Master of Beasts it became. I'm sure it'll become numerously varied over time.
Quote from: squamous
You mentioned thinking of upgrading necromancer and bandit lairs to be more extensive, but have you considered something similar for vampires or is that not on the roadmap for the upcoming updates?
Is a new civ/site type at all possible in the (relatively) near future? Not particularly expecting it but I've just been thinking about how a nomadic/tent-dwelling civ might function with the new mount mechanics.
If civs have flying mounts will they make contact with normally unreachable civs?
Will innate skills/stat boosts affect adventure mode party creation costs?
Vampires are more society-integrated as it stands, so I haven't thought about special lairs for them for this pass, no. They certainly need a lot of work and diversification.
Nope, not in the near future; nomadic stuff is almost assured for the customs/etc. stuff. One of the main points of it.
I've ignored the specific variations of contact/exploration speed/routes since boats will blow that all up and be the main factor normally. It does factor terrain and continents in, but it does it the same way for everybody.
Regarding innate skills:
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859656#msg7859656
apparently they don't work at all, and that hasn't yet changed.
Quote from: Death Dragon
When could NPC sites become moddable?
I think that if sites were moddable, you could ultimately save development time by essentially outsourcing the design work of NPC sites to community members who would probably come up with some interesting stuff. Of course, I know nothing about the code behind NPC sites, so I have no idea how difficult it would be to make them moddable, but could this potentially become more achievable after the map rewrite in the magic update?
Edit:
While we're on this topic, could you maybe give a little insight into how you code the procedural generation for sites like NPC dwarven fortresses?
There is a gigantic garbage dump of code involved in getting the sites together, and a lot of little things come into play (e.g. world gen resource stockpiles and industry numbers, etc.) So it's not easy to just put it into a moddable format, and so has just accreted into whatever over time. It is likely this will be detonated with the editors and/or map rewrite, and then we'll see.
All of the sites work a little differently, which is part of the problem. If I recollect, and there are various complications, the dwarf sites work on stacked 48x48 layers that are given purposes (residential/stockpiles/noble etc.), with knowledge of where the central staircase is so that the main hallway connection can be maintained. Within each 48x48, depending on the purpose, it either blocks out e.g. some industrial areas or the residential subsections, which get further divisions, and those blocks also have connection information. There's also the farmplot stuff if there's a cavern layer, and the top (crap) "visitor/trade/entrance" block that holds the depot/library/tavern. There isn't very much style information, but the central stairwell can either have a central hole or not, perhaps a few other things like that. But the overall method is reasonably different from what goes on in the ~800x800 human villages; the dwarven block structures are the same as those for other subterranean sites and structures, so the humans only see those in sewers, dungeons and catacombs. Their main structure is a "site realization building" and their own 48x48 (down to 16x16) surface blocks which carry roadway and pasture/etc. information, with more respect for surface features like rivers.
The goal eventually is to trash the distinction between the surface and the underground, since the underground layer structures as well as the surface river structures are likely toast as they stand with the map rewrite. I'm not sure if that ends up being cubes with traits, or what, but hopefully it'll be a unit that we can act on in text. Right now, the human/elf vs. dwarf/kob site distinction is too hard-coded and messy (with gobs in between, with their fort-like tower and the rest otherwise using more human structures, though trenches are their own thing -- but the reason we can sometimes do goblin towers in conquered human sites is because they basically work with the same framework for their typical structures.)
Quote from: KittyTac
Will night trolls be classified as villains?
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7859791#msg7859791
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
What exactly are necromancers getting up to as villains? Do they have more outside interaction now? Hanging out in taverns making future zombie candidate false friendships and such?
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7860219#msg7860219
They are somewhat like bandits at first, yeah, though we did have some stuff in mind for them. When vampires and necromancers were initially floated as candidate villains, the idea was to respect their natures, but it was also always time-dependent, so we'll see what happens. Ideas were related to securing smuggled corpses from the fort, for instance, though, yeah, heh, and kidnapping pre-zombies, as you suggest. Possibly being somewhat more ambitious in their creation of corpses, through better targeted zombie attacks and raisings and so on, to get the snowball going, though that doesn't fit with villains so much as armies. It all blends together, though.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are elves getting any more positions?
They don't have many basic positions, unlike dwarves and the new variable position humans and goblins, so scheming network opportunities would seem to be fewer.
Although, maybe it suits the mood to have elves fairly resiliant to the rest of the world's scheming shenanigans (besides all those who wander far from the home tree to live the dream of being a naked troupe dancer).
Yeah, this came up immediately, and I haven't done anything to change it yet. It's not clear yet that having fewer positions makes you more or less resilient since we're also using the layers as a form of counter-intelligence/access restriction, implicitly, in some of the calculations. Going to have to wait a bit to see how it shakes out.
Quote from: KittyTac
Will we be able to play villains?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7860421#msg7860421
Quote from: h3lblad3
Are you planning on working on Guilds and/or Societies relatively soon, now that you're trying to create reasons for people to form relationships?
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7860449#msg7860449
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7861886#msg7861886
These two replies are it basically -- we're definitely not jumping into guilds or other groups fully now, as we need all of the surrounding work we're planning to do later to do it properly (status, property, laws, and a lighter-weight definition of a subgroup in particular.) At the same time, there could be bits here and there, somewhat like the new intermediate human/gob positions, that we find necessary to make people/society interesting enough for our villain networks to function.
Quote from: Real_bang
What is your progress with villain update for this week?
If I had something to say on the 29th, I would have posted it, though yeah, I often don't make it. The end of the month is always strange, since there's a naturally build-up -- this time, aside from FotF, Zach and I drew up 21 crayon drawings (Grandma is recovering quickly!), Tanya and I finalized the editing of our second book and sent it to the publisher, I worked on my Roguelike Celebration talk, scrambled to get up to date with Patreon rewards before the month changes (not done yet!), handled some other email, and so on and so on. There's always a ton of stuff like this to do.
Quote from: Thundercraft
Are there plans to eventually allow for creatures with a child stage (such as insect larva) that are drastically different from the adult stage?
(Currently, this is impossible to do. But, considering the structure and description of the Purring Maggot, I have to wonder if it was originally envisioned to be the larval stage of a monstrous insect.)
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7861899#msg7861899
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7861970#msg7861970
Quote from: MinerMan60101
Why don't you integrate the quality of life features present in dfhack (toggling priorities, planning mode, sand presence on embark to name a few) into the base game?
Fleeting Frames: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7862446#msg7862446
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7862455#msg7862455
MinerMan60101 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7863362#msg7863362
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7863497#msg7863497
Quote from: Immortal-D
Bit of a self-bump here. I know that testing long-term mechanics is difficult for you due to the time required. That said, are you aware of current issues with the new stress sytem? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171185.0) Based on reports here & in Reddit, stress-reducing effects seem greatly underpowered compared to stress-causing effects.
Yeah, I have that thread in my "next version / before Big Wait" text file. I think I'll need to look at and log data on some saves for some of the problems, until we're satisfied that we understand what happened with a lot of the dwarves and their specific pathways to negativity. It'll be interesting to see how much of a portion of the stress is caused by probably-easily fixables like those repeated vulture interruptions (which is pure combat stress, I think, rather than just stress at being interrupted, which doesn't exist) vs. more systemic changes (which'll be harder to rebalance, but are clearly needed for certain recurring thoughts and broken/missing needs.)
Quote from: GenericUser
Will plots be able to come in multiple stages, say a person wants to be immortal and take over the world, would steal a necomancer’s slab, learn the secrets of life and death, then male an unstoppable undead army to take over the world?
On a related note, would plotters be ‘greedy’ and do opportunite things like steal a gold ring while carrying out a plot?
Some of that should happen naturally, hopefully, since the plots formed are related to the nature/goals of the villain, though they might be slow to update existing plots if they change.
Opportunistic crimes/etc. don't exist yet; it's the sort of thing that would be cool, but like adaptive combat AI, etc., it all needs to be coded in systemically and we haven't put enough time into the push and pull of transient motivations yet to get it right.
Post by: Asin on October 01, 2018, 10:12:11 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 01, 2018, 10:39:16 pm
Will we ever get another glimpse at the myth generator? I'm pretty sure more than a few players would like to mess around with it and see what happens.Ever? Of course. That's the point, isn't it?
Or do you mean ever as in 'this year'. In which case, I'd assume not what with time being tight, but maybe things will have settled down by next moth.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on October 01, 2018, 11:15:46 pm
Post by: DG on October 01, 2018, 11:47:23 pm
Will we ever get another glimpse at the myth generator? I'm pretty sure more than a few players would like to mess around with it and see what happens.
Quote from: KittyTacWould you consider releasing a version of your standalone myth generator prototype, like you showed off at GDC? I imagine that people would appreciate something to check out during the Big Wait.I'd prefer not to do this. I think it both has the bar too high in some places (effect lists, at least for release one, probably) and too low in others (most everything else.) It's not reflective enough of what I want to do, and I don't want expectations to coalesce around it overmuch.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on October 02, 2018, 04:43:31 am
Will we ever get another glimpse at the myth generator? I'm pretty sure more than a few players would like to mess around with it and see what happens.All of the pictures we've seen of it thus far have been from presentations Tarn has given. I imagine he'll do more in the future and that it will continue to feature, as it is fairly central to his vision for Dwarf Fortress. And even if he doesn't, we'll almost certainly get myth-excerpts in the numerous Dev Diary entries during the Big Wait.
That said, I don't see him releasing the prototype. He'd probably need to take time to make it user-friendly, time he could be using to work on the actual game.
Post by: iceball3 on October 02, 2018, 04:54:07 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 02, 2018, 07:03:04 am
The +/-max (10,age/2) check for marriage would mean +max (10, age/2) to -max (10, age/3) in practice if both parties are required to pass the check. However, I can see trouble brewing if the older party tries to pursue an eligible younger one who doesn't find the older one eligible. Currently it probably doesn't matter, but if they are eventually going to act on their desires this can cause them to embark on impossible quests, in particular if the younger one doesn't reject (nor accept, naturally) an advance from someone who's already dismissed for age reasons (although, with time, they will both come within the age range, unless death happens first).
It's intended more as a potential trouble indication than an actual question.
Post by: MetroChensual on October 02, 2018, 09:59:37 am
Adding to that question, can a retired adventurer change occupations?
Post by: Real_bang on October 02, 2018, 10:09:45 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 02, 2018, 11:09:04 am
Thanks for the answers, Toady. However, an immediate follow up:
The +/-max (10,age/2) check for marriage would mean +max (10, age/2) to -max (10, age/3) in practice if both parties are required to pass the check. However, I can see trouble brewing if the older party tries to pursue an eligible younger one who doesn't find the older one eligible. Currently it probably doesn't matter, but if they are eventually going to act on their desires this can cause them to embark on impossible quests, in particular if the younger one doesn't reject (nor accept, naturally) an advance from someone who's already dismissed for age reasons (although, with time, they will both come within the age range, unless death happens first).
It's intended more as a potential trouble indication than an actual question.
This sounds like it'd set up a basic "unrequited love" scenario that I'm guessing would be handled by a rejection from the younger party if advances force it, possibly leading into whatever shenanigans a rejection might spark. I would assume that "other party neither accepts nor rejects, leaving the attempt in stasis" won't be intended behavior if it crops up.
I would also imagine that, if the calculation is too heavily out of whack, then either it'll eventually get treated as a bug, or appropriate reactions from third parties who become aware of this might be a planned addition.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 02, 2018, 01:02:30 pm
Post by: ZM5 on October 02, 2018, 01:16:23 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 02, 2018, 01:16:39 pm
@Random_Dragon: "The unrequited love" scenario is quite legitimate, but both parties should act accordingly (where completely ignoring an advance might be considered suitable, but the game should then know how to handle that if so). However, I basically asked the question to avoid it resulting in a bug, as it's typically easier to address issues while they're fresh in the mind.
Ah right, makes sense. I'd hope that a "advance left in stasis" issue will be avoided, I recall how diplomats and outpost liaisons are prone to waiting on the mayor being busy, asleep, or locked up in werebeast containment for months on end...
Post by: Death Dragon on October 02, 2018, 03:55:12 pm
The goal eventually is to trash the distinction between the surface and the underground, since the underground layer structures as well as the surface river structures are likely toast as they stand with the map rewrite. I'm not sure if that ends up being cubes with traits, or what, but hopefully it'll be a unit that we can act on in text. Right now, the human/elf vs. dwarf/kob site distinction is too hard-coded and messy (with gobs in between, with their fort-like tower and the rest otherwise using more human structures, though trenches are their own thing -- but the reason we can sometimes do goblin towers in conquered human sites is because they basically work with the same framework for their typical structures.)Huh, I didn't know goblin towers can be errected in human cities, that's pretty awesome. That sounds like the map rewrite could make NPC sites a whole lot more dynamically mixed. It also sounds like the rewrite will be a hella lot of work, looking at how much code will need to be reworked.
I have the general sense that different aquifer speeds might be in order. Right now they are (kind of, not really) like these artesian aquifer pictures where the water is like SPLOOSH, but there's the other notion of just, like, a somewhat drippy cavern that might need some occasional helping and some pumps down below. The latter would be pretty easy to set up, probably, with little 1/7s of water just popping out every so often, piling up if they aren't dealt with. I've forgotten what's correct now, having not studied aquifers for many many years; I'm not sure that ground water speed illustration in the reply there encapsulates the positive pressure situation once the water is given a route out into open air, since that water literally spouts from sandstone into the air like a constant geyser. That suggests that all possibilities in the range are permitted depending on the other layers of rock (which we could just fudge, pretty much), but I'd defer to a hydrogeologist, or related professional, or anybody.It's great to hear that you're considering a tweak of aquifer water production speed. Just a short while ago while getting through an aquifer via cave in I was thinking to myself how aquifers would be waaaay less of a pain if only they dripped their water at a slower pace.
Post by: Thundercraft on October 02, 2018, 05:33:32 pm
...The age limit was modified in fact -- when I was looking through legends at some point, I found a 176 year old unmarried elf, and it turned out there was simply nobody available in the +/-10 age range (and of course, no elves in that age band could ever be produced again, so that was it.) So now it uses +/-max(10,agediff/2), with extra fudging over time if match-making fails.
Age range answered above -- currently running with +/-max(10,age/2) instead of +/-10, with some tweaks.
Could someone please explain the notation Toady used to tell us how the age limit for marriage/relationships is currently determined? Is that written in C# programming code or a code shorthand? I don't recall...
Also, which is it? +/-max(10,agediff/2) -OR- +/-max(10,age/2)
I believe those two equations are quite different. Though, I'm tempted to assume that the "age" in the 2nd equation is just a typo for "agediff" or age difference because it does not specify the current age of a specific partner.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 02, 2018, 06:02:01 pm
People 12 years apart have an agediff/2 Of 6, so they’re too seperate also, and this is the case for every number
Post by: Death Dragon on October 02, 2018, 06:50:50 pm
Could someone please explain the notation Toady used to tell us how the age limit for marriage/relationships is currently determined? Is that written in C# programming code or a code shorthand? I don't recall...I might be wrong, but I'm assuming it means people can initiate relationships with people who are at least half their age, but there's also a minimum of 10 years.
Also, which is it? +/-max(10,agediff/2) -OR- +/-max(10,age/2)
I believe those two equations are quite different. Though, I'm tempted to assume that the "age" in the 2nd equation is just a typo for "agediff" or age difference because it does not specify the current age of a specific partner.
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on October 02, 2018, 06:52:08 pm
He he, yeah, certainly if dwarves still exist by the time you start playing, they were doing something right, even if it was just laying low while the surface world was being scoured by magical forces. Presumably resistance/counters/etc. will enter into it.
This reminded me of something.
Dwarves in various tropes/myths are actually taken to be naturally resistant to many forms of magic. (Just some examples: Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim, D&D.) Will this be the case for the 'default' dwarven race (I get this notion might become more fluid, but putting that aside for the moment) from the myth release onward, relative to other races?
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 03, 2018, 02:08:54 am
:
Could someone please explain the notation Toady used to tell us how the age limit for marriage/relationships is currently determined? Is that written in C# programming code or a code shorthand? I don't recall...
Also, which is it? +/-max(10,agediff/2) -OR- +/-max(10,age/2)
I believe those two equations are quite different. Though, I'm tempted to assume that the "age" in the 2nd equation is just a typo for "agediff" or age difference because it does not specify the current age of a specific partner.
I assume the "agediff/2" in the answer to me was incorrect (and the later answer correct), because half the difference in age would mean they would always be out of range unless the 10 year rule kicks in.
If they're at most 20 years old it would be within 10 years of age (and those below 12 are kids and thus not eligible, but those who are 30 are OK, so the span would be 12-30). If they're older than 20 the limit becomes +/- half their age as that's a larger span than +/10, which means a 50 year old would be compatible with the age span 25 - 75. However, the reason I asked my further question is that a 30 year old's range would be 15 - 45, so the old geezer would be out of their range.
@Death Dragon
There's a C(++) math function "max" that behaves like this. C# has likely nothing to do with it as it's not used for DF, although the same functionality tends to be made available in more every reasonably normal programming or scripting language because it's useful (Prolog and APL are examples of programming languages that are not normal, and LISP is close to that category as well).
Post by: Putnam on October 03, 2018, 02:52:11 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on October 03, 2018, 05:29:24 pm
Post by: Toady One on October 03, 2018, 06:47:47 pm
Post by: feelotraveller on October 03, 2018, 10:43:39 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 04, 2018, 02:19:58 am
I'd also like to say that I like this change as the old range is rather restrictive for long lived races in particular.
To follow up on feelotraveller's post: It uses half of the younger potential partner's age in the comparison (that's what the "min(age_1,age_2)/2" part does), so if the older one is at most half the younger one's age older (or less than 10 years older if the younger one is younger than 20 [which is the age at which half the age is exactly 10 years]), they're age compatible. This works out as feelotraveller described if you focus on the older one instead.
Post by: Wigglepuff on October 06, 2018, 06:56:16 pm
Will the deities made in world gen ever demand an amount of worship, and if that amount is not met, will they send catastrophic events to the fortress?
Post by: KittyTac on October 06, 2018, 09:03:59 pm
Probably? Common in fantasy stories, so depending on the world.
Will the deities made in world gen ever demand an amount of worship, and if that amount is not met, will they send catastrophic events to the fortress?
Post by: George_Chickens on October 07, 2018, 03:24:24 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 07, 2018, 03:38:49 am
I have a question about general development, if that's appropriate. Once a feature fails to meet a deadline, is it permanently abandoned, or simply put on the backburner? What is the plan to deal with features that could not be implemented due to deadlines?Everything in the devnotes are features due to be implemented. Things that were put off (like procgen tavern games) will get looked at next time that area of the game gets looked at (Economy probably which will look at poverty and gambling. Maybe earlier if there's a need for gamblers to be wandering the world to make some other feature work more smoothly).
Like all future features of the game, there's almost certainly no timetable, like 'handle that in 2022'.
Post by: Real_bang on October 07, 2018, 04:01:51 am
their elven woodsacks or torturing someone using the same method.
Post by: KittyTac on October 07, 2018, 04:03:21 am
Will there be genitals introduced? I know its kinda childish question but it would be cool to kick elfs right in toToady is aversed to such things.
their elven woodsacks or torturing someone using the same method.
Post by: Real_bang on October 07, 2018, 04:06:48 am
Can you please then say what did he answer.Will there be genitals introduced? I know its kinda childish question but it would be cool to kick elfs right in toToady is aversed to such things.
their elven woodsacks or torturing someone using the same method.
Post by: KittyTac on October 07, 2018, 04:09:49 am
I just heard that he is averse to adding genitals. Any questions?Can you please then say what did he answer.Will there be genitals introduced? I know its kinda childish question but it would be cool to kick elfs right in toToady is aversed to such things.
their elven woodsacks or torturing someone using the same method.
Post by: Robsoie on October 07, 2018, 04:28:37 am
Toady is aversed to such things.Still he added gelding strikes in battle.
Post by: KittyTac on October 07, 2018, 05:06:50 am
I meant that he's averse to adding genitals as body parts rather than abstractions like gelding strikes.Toady is aversed to such things.Still he added gelding strikes in battle.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on October 07, 2018, 05:17:23 am
Will there be genitals introduced? I know its kinda childish question but it would be cool to kick elfs right in toTo elaborate on what KittyTac said, Tarn doesn't want DF getting a reputation as a filth simulator. It's for this reason he hasn't added feces, and I assume the same applies to genitals. One Obok Meatgod was bad enough. There's no point in encouraging that sort of behavior.
their elven woodsacks or torturing someone using the same method.
Post by: George_Chickens on October 07, 2018, 07:09:23 am
Post by: Real_bang on October 07, 2018, 12:50:22 pm
The last thing I remember him saying on the topic was "I really do not want DF to become 'That game with those pissing and shitting and raping dwarfs'. So he tends to avoid bodily functions and sensitive topics all together.I see. I understand his point of view and respect it but you can already do some disgusting stuff in df (like kill someone's kid and bash its parent with its head to death) and noone says that df is that game where you murder children etc. Everyone says that its a great game though.
Also very nice presentation Toady, it was a pleasure to watch.
Post by: Death Dragon on October 07, 2018, 06:31:09 pm
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/319619527?t=00h07m51s
He talks about why villains became the focus of the current update and gives a possible example of how a villain network and its causes and effects could look like.
He also says that letting the player become a villain with the ability of sending people around to cause trouble should not require much work to implement.
Post by: Thundercraft on October 08, 2018, 12:28:19 am
To elaborate on what KittyTac said, Tarn doesn't want DF getting a reputation as a filth simulator. It's for this reason he hasn't added feces, and I assume the same applies to genitals.
"I assume"? Are you sure that is not reading too much into it? Anyway, body parts are limited to text names / descriptions, which are abstract. It's not like DF would ever end up displaying graphics of such parts, in 3D or otherwise.
As a text roguelike, the details are abstract as one needs to use their imagination. As such, combat and events which would definitely earn a "Mature" game rating as a 3D simulator are not that scary/repulsive. They can even be humorous.
The last thing I remember him saying on the topic was "I really do not want DF to become 'That game with those pissing and shitting and raping dwarfs'. So he tends to avoid bodily functions and sensitive topics all together.
I continue to be amazed at the increasing level of depth that the fantasy world simulator called "Dwarf Fortress" is evolving into with every major release. Though, I agree that simulating excrement and urine is going too far. There's just no point. I'm sure the number of games which have included such (or even just bathroom breaks) could be counted on one hand.
Simulating rape is another thing that would (obviously) be too controversial and going too far. If nothing else, that'd make it an adult game.
However, these days, we find words like "breasts", "ovaries" and "penis" all over the place, including news headlines and mentions in daytime shows. These are medical terms. These days, there's very little negative connotation. We live in an age where women march wearing giant vagina hats as a form of protest and this is shown on TV. Once upon a time, saying such terms in public was considered vulgar. But I think society is past that.
I see. I understand his point of view and respect it but you can already do some disgusting stuff in df (like kill someone's kid and bash its parent with its head to death) and noone says that df is that game where you murder children etc. Everyone says that its a great game though.
Agreed. The combat log is bloody and gruesome, especially with children involved. It may even be enough to make some cringe. Despite that, DF popularity grows. Though, DF is a rather niche game. It's hard for many to learn and get into, which leaves out casual gamers.
I remember several years ago when there was a heated debate over the possibility of Toady adding sexual preferences and homosexuality. There were many on both sides, for and against. As I recall, one of the most common arguments against was that this would be too controversial. Most seemed to assume that this would never happen. Surprisingly, though, it did.
The reaction was underwhelming. There was not much reaction, negative or otherwise. It almost seems to have been forgotten at this point because I don't see it mentioned often.
My point is that we can't always predict what Toady will or won't eventually add. Nor can we always predict the reaction.
You may be interested to know that there used to be a mod which added genitals. Some older versions of Genesis Mod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=52988.0) did this. There was even a mod loader which allowed players to customize it by toggling optional features like genitalia on or off.
Though, Deon decided to remove it in a later version. Since it involved raw changes to the civ races and a lot of creatures, I would imagine that maintaining it (i.e., keeping all those raws updated) was a real headache. But Deon made a good argument for genitalia:
Just penises and testicles to men and ovaries to women. But no worries, it's just a minor thing I do to bodies.
The main reason I do it is because I wanted to do it for a long time. I don't think that genitals are "wrong" in a game where you can dismember a kid and beat his parents with his corpse. It's just another bodypart which you can slash off (or lose) which adds to a realism a bit.
And Medicine Man points out an obvious flaw in modded genitals:
It still will be funny when you retire your neutered adventurer and you think "Lolwut?how did he get a kid?"
Genesis does show that genitals can be added via modding. However, I do not believe it is possible to connect a gelding strike with the loss or injury of modded genitals. Nor do I believe it is possible to induce sterility after the loss or injury of modded genitals. (A few years ago I had this idea of creating a syndrome which induced targeted necrosis of genitalia in Genesis. But, due to the above reasons, it seemed rather pointless.)
Modding has its limits. I believe connecting genitals with sterility is only be possible if Toady added them. And, judging by the reaction of adding sexual preferences, the reaction would probably be mild or underwhelming.
Post by: KittyTac on October 08, 2018, 12:46:49 am
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on October 08, 2018, 12:54:54 am
Reading too much into it? Hardly. If Toady doesn't want poop catapults (and he's said as much), then he almost certainly doesn't want an adventurer force-feeding an enemy his own manhood, or seizing female characters by the you-know-what, or doing any other number of lurid things one could do with simulated nether-bits. The lack of graphics is irrelevant; the game describes combat in painstaking detail. And I can guarantee you that there'd be a constant stream of posts to the effect of "LOL! I killed a guy with his own dong! I bet no one's ever done that before!" See also: Crusader Kings 2 and its addled personal physicians.To elaborate on what KittyTac said, Tarn doesn't want DF getting a reputation as a filth simulator. It's for this reason he hasn't added feces, and I assume the same applies to genitals.
"I assume"? Are you sure that is not reading too much into it? Anyway, body parts are limited to text names / descriptions, which are abstract. It's not like DF would ever end up displaying graphics of such parts, in 3D or otherwise.
And yes, you can do all sorts of horrible things to your enemies already, but graphic mutilation just doesn't have the same sort of Lowest Common Denominator appeal. Or to put it another way, DF players may have a reputation as bloodthirsty monsters that would make Armok blush, but they're not perverts.
EDIT: And even with violence Toady has his limits, as demonstrated by the mermaid bone-farming debacle.
Post by: Eric Blank on October 08, 2018, 01:25:04 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 08, 2018, 01:29:37 am
Yall can just add your favorite bodyparts and functions yourselves anyway. It wouldnt even be that difficult.And keep your fun to yourself if you do...
Post by: KittyTac on October 08, 2018, 01:59:37 am
EDIT: And even with violence Toady has his limits, as demonstrated by the mermaid bone-farming debacle.There's nothing preventing you from farming mermaids for fun.
Post by: Thundercraft on October 08, 2018, 03:42:29 am
EDIT: And even with violence Toady has his limits, as demonstrated by the mermaid bone-farming debacle.
I do not see the connection to this discussion. Because of the violence? Because mermaids are sapient? There are other things players can do in DF that are just as violent and cruel.
AFAIK, the main reason that mermaid bone-farming was fixed was because it was very clearly a money exploit. From what I remember, the profit potential was huge. That, and it probably did not match what was intended. I can see how it could seem silly if mermaid farms became a typical feature of forts near the ocean rather than a rare oddity.
There's nothing preventing you from farming mermaids for fun.
Sure. But, without a money incentive, it seems pointless.
I suppose there's nothing stopping someone from modding mermaids to once again have a real incentive. However, as I pointed out, the same can not be said for modding in genitalia. Yes, we can mod them in. But without a connection to gelding/sterility... It would be weird if a creature still ended up fathering children after castration.
Yall can just add your favorite bodyparts and functions yourselves anyway. It wouldnt even be that difficult.
"Difficult" is a relative term. I'm not talking about modding gender-specific parts onto just dwarves, I'm talking about adding them to all civilized races and most mammals. That's a lot of raws, esp. to keep them all maintained between updates.
As far as I can tell, Genesis Mod was the only mod to do genitalia. And it was dropped a long time ago. Not even TomiTapio's OldGenesis has them. If it was "easy", wouldn't there have been others?
But, you're right: Modding in gender-specific parts is not hard. (Just a little tedious.) Though, as I said, it seems impossible to connect modded parts to gelding and sterility. And it seems weird and somewhat pointless without that.
I'm against that, because it would literally add nothing and Toady's time is best spent on other things.
I can't help but smile at this. :) You see, the same argument was used against adding in sexual preferences. I even think I said the same myself, almost word for word. It seemed pointless to me and I also thought Toady's time was better spent on other things. But there was quite a debate about this topic and, sure enough, it got added anyway.
Post by: KittyTac on October 08, 2018, 04:29:14 am
Post by: Real_bang on October 08, 2018, 05:43:46 am
In your presentation you said that we can send our companions to do mischief and that its similar to raid menu in fort mode. Will we be able to specify mischief (like send some guys on a raid/raze/stealing artifact mission) and how will they find the adventurer when they finished with their mission? Like if i send someone to form links i think that he should come back and tell about links that have been formed/mischiefs that he had done. So how will he find me in a big world map?
Post by: KittyTac on October 08, 2018, 05:54:40 am
Dudes no need to argue about wieners. I feel very sorry that i asked this stupid question and it got a debate in fotf thread which supposed to be used for questions, not arguing. Lets just get over it and start asking questions again.You can PM Toady to delete your question and all of the arguing about it.
In your presentation you said that we can send our companions to do mischief and that its similar to raid menu in fort mode. Will we be able to specify mischief (like send some guys on a raid/raze/stealing artifact mission) and how will they find the adventurer when they finished with their mission? Like if i send someone to form links i think that he should come back and tell about links that have been formed/mischiefs that he had done. So how will he find me in a big world map?
Post by: DG on October 08, 2018, 06:04:30 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hm, nice question, hadn't even occurred to me. I'm interested in the answer. Maybe you set up a rendezvous point beforehand or they just return to the place that you gave the order to wait for you?
Post by: George_Chickens on October 08, 2018, 06:19:58 am
I think it is now possible with the addition of geldables. The geldable organs presently are the guts, but I imagine the tags can be changed around and added to modded genitals.Nor do I believe it is possible to induce sterility after the loss or injury of modded genitals.
Post by: ZM5 on October 08, 2018, 07:38:44 am
Post by: iceball3 on October 08, 2018, 11:55:02 am
As far as I can tell, Genesis Mod was the only mod to do genitalia. And it was dropped a long time ago. Not even TomiTapio's OldGenesis has them. If it was "easy", wouldn't there have been others?Wouldn't it be trivial though? This sounds like something you could literally set in the BDP or similar, and have it apply to all species that use said plans. And as ZM5 says, geld-ability literally is already compatible with extra organs. Why is there all this compassion about a feature being unmoddable coming from someone who hasn't even dug through the raws enough to understand that?
Post by: ZM5 on October 08, 2018, 12:37:18 pm
Post by: ShinQuickMan on October 08, 2018, 06:12:28 pm
Post by: scourge728 on October 08, 2018, 06:39:44 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 09, 2018, 02:11:50 am
From your perspective, would it fall under the purview of goblin civilization (or, more specifically, any civ with the babysnatcher tag) to snatch babies from uncivilized peoples, or should they only take interest in civilized sites as is currently? Would be quite FUN to discover that the local Dark Fortress has salt water crocodile men, harpies, and heck, a small population of giants in their ranks.
Sounds more like a suggestion to be honest, but yeah expanding the behaviour as time goes on i can see Toady doing, but until now they've swerved around questions, particularly saying things like making until the point where it may be viable to 'change perspective' and offer the non modded playability of other races and move away from the purely dwarven viewpoint, dwarf centricity will be his focus and the rest can hold off for now.
He wouldn't add any more particular goblin mechanics until they get their own little playable integration into the modes. But for now you can simply fumble with the RAW's a bit, add the fortress reliant code to make it on-par with dwarf mode or a little bit more unique in certain ways by yourself (goblins have different needs for one, you can go a step further and give them unconventional weapons and a noble power structure, even modifying things like religion & art basis by shifting modifiers)
- Or you can RAW in the ability to select them out of a list of dwarf, human & elf civ's as a adventurer and go out into the world as a goblin civilisation member with the objective to do redeeming heroic acts or more preferably to your political situation become a villainous conqueror and raiding pillager.
Post by: Real_bang on October 09, 2018, 11:13:13 am
1. When playing necromancer or vampire in adventure mode will we be able to promise our companions/random people secrets of life and death/eternal life to get them as our minions (if their goals are the same/similar with the promise)
1.1 Will we be able to turn our whole adventure party into vampires/necros with their agreement?
2. Will loyal adventurers that were with you through some fights with beasts/gobbos/etc. attack you if they find out that you are a vampire/necro?
3. Will we be able to do mischief in fort mode? Make agents, send them to elven forest and make them start a war with humans/do something else
4. You were talking about villains that have a goal but will there be villains without one? Villains whospread chaos/agony/pain? Force of nature Villains as they called. That category might fit demons or beasts
Post by: DudeeDew on October 09, 2018, 01:15:15 pm
1. Will NPCs use dual-wielding? Will dwarves in the fortress use two weapons at once and simultaneous dual-wielding attacks?
2. How good will the disguise system be made? Will it be possible to use magic and special tools to disguise oneself? Like fake beards, made-up scars, for instance, or even a comlpete full-body illusion that makes a human appear and talk as an elf.
3. Will it be possible to effectively impersonate someone to gain some benefit of their position? Like giving some bad orders to the army of your enemy civ and stuff.
4. Will the language ability get some use in the game? So that people will talk among themselves in their native lang and using "common" to talk to others (if they know it), and the player character won't understand anything unless he knows the specific language.
4.1. Also, in case this is implemented, will different civs of the same race have slightly (or strongly) different languages?
5. Haven't really encountered it so far, so I'll ask: will different civs of the same race wage war against each other?
6. Will we have explosives (magical or normal) to use as a mining and/or military tool? Will invaders use tham to destroy dwarven fortifications?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 09, 2018, 01:20:36 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 09, 2018, 04:08:50 pm
1. When playing necromancer or vampire in adventure mode will we be able to promise our companions/random people secrets of life and death/eternal life to get them as our minions (if their goals are the same/similar with the promise)
1.1 Will we be able to turn our whole adventure party into vampires/necros with their agreement?
This will probably have to rely on how well the controls handle and whether lures of power/rewards to motivate and enroll villians makes it into the main overall game for fortress mode worldgen. It'd probably be no different to just asking someone to join you on your quest as a follower to check whether they like the proposition &/or are not busy being duty-bound to a local site job.
2. Will loyal adventurers that were with you through some fights with beasts/gobbos/etc. attack you if they find out that you are a vampire/necro?
Interesting question, but im pretty sure there's already some mechanics with you being a nighbeast versus other people's knowledge of it, knowing its you though might hinge them into turning a blind eye, i dont know, Toady will have to answer that one. Especially if you attack, eat & devour your followers in a fit of were-beast induced mania without remembering what'd happened or they crawled away escaping i imagine it might be a good bet the next time you meet them they are hostile.
3. Will we be able to do mischief in fort mode? Make agents, send them to elven forest and make them start a war with humans/do something else
4. You were talking about villains that have a goal but will there be villains without one? Villains whospread chaos/agony/pain? Force of nature Villains as they called. That category might fit demons or beasts[/color]
- Its sort of implied yes, but not a lot of news in regards to self made mischief.
Spreading agony/chaos/pain is still a goal, even if its a vindictive one, maybe they just want to destroy the balance of order in the world, affect a sphere rather than rule over the ashes, it does sound more supernatural though, mortals have mortal concerns with rulership than a immortal diety like being.
Post by: DudeeDew on October 10, 2018, 12:32:44 am
You already can make multiple attacks at the same time.It is, yeah, I forgot that, how stupid of me. I'll delete that from my question.
EDIT: on the second thought, I should change the question instead.
Post by: Real_bang on October 10, 2018, 09:11:37 am
Also what major bugs are you going to fix before the big wait?
Post by: Magistrum on October 10, 2018, 08:17:52 pm
Do you plan on adding measurement units for values? Metric? Would civs have their own measurements?
Though learning that every new gen might end up being just a drag for players...
Post by: falcc on October 10, 2018, 09:28:36 pm
I feel like once there's more sense of antagonism possible my friend wouldn't be so friendly in the arrangement we have now. I wouldn't in that position. It certainly seems to want to fight about the nuance of every value, so maybe it'll never really trust me enough to control it directly even if it's compelled to tag along to the extent it is now.
Also, I've gotta say, vaults are a pretty fun dungeon after all my time lost in sewers. Those levers have me so excited for the future.
Post by: feelotraveller on October 11, 2018, 05:57:20 am
Do you plan on adding measurement units for values? Metric? Would civs have their own measurements?
I thought Urist was the Measure of All Things. :P
Post by: DG on October 11, 2018, 06:28:25 am
Post by: feelotraveller on October 11, 2018, 03:25:37 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on October 11, 2018, 06:10:35 pm
Let's use heuristic technique. :D
Ow. My brain.
Post by: DG on October 12, 2018, 01:55:00 am
Post by: quekwoambojish on October 12, 2018, 10:03:09 am
Or will they be
Post by: KittyTac on October 12, 2018, 10:17:19 am
Will Bogeymen be used in Villain plots?They would make no sense in a procedural magic system, so bogeymen will be replaced by procgen things.
Or will they beremovedfixed in myth and magic release?
Post by: quekwoambojish on October 12, 2018, 01:32:46 pm
Will Bogeymen be used in Villain plots?They would make no sense in a procedural magic system, so bogeymen will be replaced by procgen things.
Or will they beremovedfixed in myth and magic release?
That’s what I’m hoping and what I’m thinking as well, but it was my belief they were going to get looked into during the night creature changes.
Post by: kontako on October 14, 2018, 12:01:08 am
I ask with specific reference towards their use between the mentions of Hist. figs., Civilisations, Organisations, Events, etc and a page which defines them.
Or is their inclusion deferred to a particular future update?
Post by: Bumber on October 15, 2018, 01:59:37 am
To what extent do you expect to use hyperlinks within / after the development of the coming long-wait update? If my memory serves well, I recall the use of hyperlinks in the myth demo.Hyperlinks would definitely improve the help screen.
I ask with specific reference towards their use between the mentions of Hist. figs., Civilisations, Organisations, Events, etc and a page which defines them.
Or is their inclusion deferred to a particular future update?
Post by: Inarius on October 15, 2018, 04:21:23 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 15, 2018, 04:50:59 am
And in legends menu, in general. But i think that implementing this would be longer than you imagine (or perhaps you already know)Possibly, but it's going to go that way eventually. It's already part of Mythgen.
Post by: Inarius on October 15, 2018, 06:38:10 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 17, 2018, 12:21:14 am
Does this mean the merchants who visit your fortress will now be actual exisitng merchants who've travelled across the map from someplace to get to you? Or are they still the magically generated kind?
Post by: Real_bang on October 17, 2018, 08:20:02 am
Post by: GoblinCookie on October 18, 2018, 05:49:12 am
All questions as usual about the next update. Will we be able to send messenger to trade outposts to request a caravan? If yes will we be able to pick what we need for extra money like with mountainhome? Will we be able send a squad to rob them for good loot. With the addition of merchants will we finally see caravans in adventure mode?
I think that is going to have to wait for the economy, which I don't think the next release is intended to be, sadly. Except for the looting trade outposts part, that sounds doable.
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 18, 2018, 07:17:14 am
&
Do travelling merchants accompany trade caravans in scheduled visits or do they arrive individually?
Post by: Real_bang on October 18, 2018, 02:22:48 pm
Post by: Slozgo Luzma on October 18, 2018, 11:09:54 pm
Before the big wait, do you have any plans to expand the representation of structures and sites on the world map? For instance, goblins have taverns but the player can't visit them in adventure mode, while dying civilizations that make take their last stand in outdoor tombs that belong to them cannot be visited by the player.
While all these trade changes are being made, might we see player-controlled caravans in fort or adventure mode before the big wait? Or is that definitely something you are leaving until the economy arc?
Post by: Atomisk on October 19, 2018, 05:08:43 am
Were there ever any plans to give dwarves a designation to prioritize relaxation? and only work to satisfy orders/craftmoods slowly?
or is it good enough just to allow them to make work a priority and if they're not given a job, they simply socialize? (Or burrow them, i guess.) I was thinking it's hard to get certain groups of my fort to socialize because they rush to complete work orders. I think there should be a way to ORDER them to go have a chat or a drink! A schedualing system for non-military dwarves to work or play (Months to auto-assign burrows to citizens..)?
With all the activity, missions, and other things going on, Will dwarves ever be allowed to wander the surrounding wilds? Occupation: adventurer?
It could present both happy 'unsupervised free time' thoughts, and they can go collect, hunt, explore, or do whatever they want offsite.. And maybe they bring back an exotic kill, or plant, or some random junk that might not have already been on the map!
Post by: KingEdwarf3890 on October 21, 2018, 12:58:04 pm
Post by: Beag on October 21, 2018, 02:35:47 pm
2. Will the addition of trade caravans mean local site shops finally having a way to resupply their stock while adventure mode is running?
3. Will certain villians make use of were beasts as minnions in their scemes? Spreading the curse is a great way to sow chaos.
4. With the addition of more personal NPC relationships for purposes of intrigue will our own adventurer's personal relationships with NPCs be shown more clearly?
Post by: DG on October 21, 2018, 09:01:03 pm
Post by: a52 on October 21, 2018, 09:36:00 pm
Post by: iceball3 on October 21, 2018, 09:40:15 pm
Will the event knowledge system be reworked any time soon? There are a lot of cases where, say, a location is mentioned to an adventurer, and it doesn't transfer to the adventurer's talk menu, the adventurer's log/status screen, and/or the legends screen (with legends not revealed by default).Sounds like you should make a bug report.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 21, 2018, 10:01:29 pm
Hey, I get that deities in general won't be worked on until the Magic Update, but at some point before that could you at least fix it so that Adventurers from an Elven civ have a way to satisfy the need to pray? Cause right now praying doesn't work for Elven adventurers even though they have religion. It's cause of the different worship system I think.The thing is, are force worshippers even meant to pray? There's no point in taking the time to add a temporary 'let elves pray' placeholder to get around a minor bug that you can easily workaround (reduce need to pray in character creation) if it's just going to be removed in the next development arc. Everyone has their pet bugs, there's really no point in posting hundreds of 'when will you fix xyz?' demands here.
If it's not been reported, report it. If it's a major crash bug it'll get looked at. If it has nothing to do with current development, it probably won't be prioritised (might get fixed, but so might any of the other hundreds of bugs on the tracker).
Post by: squamous on October 22, 2018, 02:30:18 am
Will we see an overhaul of military invasions before the big wait? Right now they invasion mechanics are more than a little wonky, with armies arriving in small groups over a period of weeks before finally gathering and launching a weird and anticlimactic attack on the site that the player can't really do much about. That's my experience with it anyway. Will this change at all in the future? And also, will the previously mentioned adventure mode military improvements (adventurers leading armies for example) be implemented either?
Post by: scourge728 on October 22, 2018, 07:14:12 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 22, 2018, 07:19:15 am
I keep hearing people mention merchant caravans, where is the source for this being added soon?
When in doubt, check the devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/)
Post by: scourge728 on October 22, 2018, 07:21:09 am
Post by: DG on October 22, 2018, 08:54:07 am
Post by: a52 on October 22, 2018, 06:31:13 pm
Will the event knowledge system be reworked any time soon? There are a lot of cases where, say, a location is mentioned to an adventurer, and it doesn't transfer to the adventurer's talk menu, the adventurer's log/status screen, and/or the legends screen (with legends not revealed by default).Sounds like you should make a bug report.
Currently working on a huge list of experiments to test information transfer between npc + adventurers, adventurers + legends, etc., which I'll probably post both on the forums and the Mantis BT. But it obviously wouldn't be worth it if the system was already planned to be rewritten/in the process of being rewritten.
Post by: Real_bang on October 24, 2018, 01:18:30 pm
Will trading companies be able to open a branch warehouse in our fortress? If so will multiple companies be able to do it? Will this be the same with religion? What would be our benefit from letting them open a warehouse in our fortress? Will they build it themselves or we will have to construct it for them?
Also this one is kinda offtopic and i think its been answered here before but can Toady put screenshots in devlogs? Or site's engine wont allow it? It would be fun to look at forgotten beast warehouse administrator picture. Or at any picture related to the new things being made (especially when it comes to the big wait)
Post by: therahedwig on October 24, 2018, 01:36:20 pm
As for the rest, my best guess is that he hasn't figured it out yet: The dev cycle is currently in the 'stick stuff into worldgen that the villain ai can gnaw on' so there hasn't been much gameplay stuff yet(beyond flavor text).
Post by: Doorkeeper on October 24, 2018, 02:57:08 pm
Also this one is kinda offtopic and i think its been answered here before but can Toady put screenshots in devlogs? Or site's engine wont allow it? It would be fun to look at forgotten beast warehouse administrator picture. Or at any picture related to the new things being made (especially when it comes to the big wait)
Here are a few devlogs in the past with screenshots: 1 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2016-02-22), 2 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2014.html#2014-03-23), 3 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2012.html#2012-11-09). There is a lot more screenshots in pre-2012. Mostly for map-related features, but there are also ones non-map related (example (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2010.html#2010-11-01)). I personally hope to see more visual examples in the future too, to gain a better understanding of what to expect in practice, specifically for map features.
Post by: Rockphed on October 24, 2018, 05:24:34 pm
When you talk about silly additions, what do you mean? My experience with previous additions is that the silly stuff is normally caused by weird interactions between recently fleshed out systems and systems that are still placeholders.
As Dwarf Fortress gets more complex, how do you check for bugs? It seems too complex to exhaustively search the event space, but just turning it on and seeing what pops out seems likely to miss things. Maybe I should specifically ask how you came to check what happened to the trade warehouse when the fortress got hit by a forgotten beast?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 24, 2018, 08:57:17 pm
2 questions:"Silly" additions just meant that, as usual, he was taking things a little too far. Adding so many interactions to the world to support his villains. Merchants, religion, crime, etc. But as he said, that helps produce a deep meaningful system.
When you talk about silly additions, what do you mean? My experience with previous additions is that the silly stuff is normally caused by weird interactions between recently fleshed out systems and systems that are still placeholders.
As Dwarf Fortress gets more complex, how do you check for bugs? It seems too complex to exhaustively search the event space, but just turning it on and seeing what pops out seems likely to miss things. Maybe I should specifically ask how you came to check what happened to the trade warehouse when the fortress got hit by a forgotten beast?
Please keep being silly Tarn (fix stress too, sure, but silly is good).
Post by: Hinaichigo on October 24, 2018, 11:53:22 pm
edit: removed green coloring because it was addressed
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 25, 2018, 12:59:08 am
You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?Underground is where dwarf fortresses are...
But, hmm. Sure I've seen forgotten beast attacks in worldgen. Must check my worlds histories later. Maybe its always megabeasts.
Post by: KittyTac on October 25, 2018, 01:32:57 am
It can be FBs.You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?Underground is where dwarf fortresses are...
But, hmm. Sure I've seen forgotten beast attacks in worldgen. Must check my worlds histories later. Maybe its always megabeasts.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 25, 2018, 09:00:53 am
Yup. Quick look at Legends (44.12 generated world) reveals tons of Forgotten Beast attacks on sites (seems to be all fortresses) during worldgen. Where did you hear they don't attack in worldgen, Hinaichigo? Is it something that needs correcting on the wiki?It can be FBs.You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?Underground is where dwarf fortresses are...
But, hmm. Sure I've seen forgotten beast attacks in worldgen. Must check my worlds histories later. Maybe its always megabeasts.
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 25, 2018, 09:53:10 am
Dark Fortresses are also underground by site-type, but can't be targeted by forgotten beasts due to it being explicitly exposed to somewhere else down the winding paths. Its how they collect trolls natively with [USE_EVIL_CREATURES].
Q - What kind of conditions need to be met before companies* manage to shake hands with dwarves and set up a building belonging to another race in the middle of a market town?
Q - Do organisations present in other civilisations go any further towards the modularity of cities pre-site rewrite development goals? Much in the mind that a long time ago you released development pictures of how villages are formed out of preset pieces but arranged appropriate to population sprawl with space for fields etc. Now we have more structures like these warehouses placing themselves between everything.
*(to keep the answer simple rather than addressing other 'organisations')
I mention this because dwarves and humans tend to be pretty friendly anyway, building roads between one another and regularly taking in adventurer traffic compared to elves who are warlike over cultural dogma and aggrieve other civilisations against them for repulsive habits. There would be circumstances where through player interaction the company's trade would break down if the player took action though right?
The only other example where this happens I can think of is when enemy civilisations decide to build fortifications over a site, like goblin trenches (which don't really do anything to boost positional advantage last time i noticed) usually as a occupier, rather than a voluntary action with overlapping stakes & shares in a city.
Post by: Beag on October 25, 2018, 05:29:10 pm
2. What intrigue quests/interactions do you have in mind for player adventurers to do with religious groups if any?
3. Will elven religion get it's own share of intrigue work? Maybe involving the closest equivalent position they have to a priest, aka druid?
4. In terms of general intrigue and plots in what ways will religious groups interact with other groups both good, evil and neutral?
Post by: Goonts on October 25, 2018, 06:25:52 pm
1. How raw oriented are the new companies/religions/organizations? While I expect it is mostly hard coded, will they respect ethics and values? Like an elf company refusing to buy or sell wood, or a civilization who is absolutely disgusted by commerce completely lacking companies in the first place.
2.Would an organization that was controlled by a villain or completely corrupted by a villain's plot act villainous? Killing a villain is one thing, but killing an entire evil corporation or cult is another thing entirely.
3. In the absurd case that this does happen (potential bugs notwithstanding), could your entire fortress be roped into a villainous plot and you remain blissfully unaware?
I realize that it may be too early to say if these sorts of things will make the cut before the Big Wait, but can't hurt to ask.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 25, 2018, 10:04:58 pm
I have three-ish questions.1) Humans have pretty flexible ethics, being fond of both slavery and tree murder. Probably not an issue as it seems to be only humans right now. Hopefully values are taken into account with the more knowledge loving human civs spawning mobile libraries (etc).
1. How raw oriented are the new companies/religions/organizations? While I expect it is mostly hard coded, will they respect ethics and values? Like an elf company refusing to buy or sell wood, or a civilization who is absolutely disgusted by commerce completely lacking companies in the first place.
2.Would an organization that was controlled by a villain or completely corrupted by a villain's plot act villainous? Killing a villain is one thing, but killing an entire evil corporation or cult is another thing entirely.
3. In the absurd case that this does happen (potential bugs notwithstanding), could your entire fortress be roped into a villainous plot and you remain blissfully unaware?
I realize that it may be too early to say if these sorts of things will make the cut before the Big Wait, but can't hurt to ask.
3) Seems more like something for Starting Scenarios, which will more define your site's relationship with the outside world.
Post by: Hinaichigo on October 26, 2018, 02:16:35 am
Yup. Quick look at Legends (44.12 generated world) reveals tons of Forgotten Beast attacks on sites (seems to be all fortresses) during worldgen. Where did you hear they don't attack in worldgen, Hinaichigo? Is it something that needs correcting on the wiki?It can be FBs.You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?Underground is where dwarf fortresses are...
But, hmm. Sure I've seen forgotten beast attacks in worldgen. Must check my worlds histories later. Maybe its always megabeasts.
I see. I've never noticed it personally I guess.
Post by: Real_bang on October 26, 2018, 09:07:38 am
2. Will some villain plots be solved by someone else (at least in worldgen)?
3. You mentioned small crimes so should we expect prison/courthouse type of buildings where they will go if being caught? Or this will be worked on later in law arc?
4. Will you fix fortress retirement before the big wait?
Post by: Renarin21 on October 27, 2018, 09:42:44 am
2. I know we won't be able to go to other planes in the near future, but will there be cases where other planes can overlap with the normal world? Like a haunted area where the veil between the living and the afterlife is thin, or (in an extreme case) a throne room for a deity that (in theory) simultaneously exists in multiple planes.
Post by: Eschar on October 27, 2018, 11:38:01 am
Dark Fortresses are also underground by site-type, but can't be targeted by forgotten beasts due to it being explicitly exposed to somewhere else down the winding paths.
So sites have a tag for spoiler connections?
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 27, 2018, 11:42:58 am
Dark Fortresses are also underground by site-type, but can't be targeted by forgotten beasts due to it being explicitly exposed to somewhere else down the winding paths.
So sites have a tag for spoiler connections?
Not visibly anyway, sites do not have tags or any form of editable RAW entry but you could consider that a quirk.
Post by: Knight Otu on October 27, 2018, 03:51:59 pm
1. Will plotting/intrigue mechanics ever be generalized and used by non-villains, for non-villainous ends?Yes. From this month's FotF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864339#msg7864339):
Quote
Quoteiceball3Yeah, "villainous plots" is the current framing, and a handy enough way to think about it, and the starting plots are going to be more on the corrupt/etc. side of things, but even now, some of it can be viewed more as "spy vs. spy" or as a tale of vengeance (which has whatever moral shade) or paranoia. The mechanics will apply to everybody operating in this sphere over time, as things become more interesting. It's just easier to start with the straightforward stuff, and easier to make it player-facing.
Another question: concerning "villainous plots", are the long term plans for these specifically to develop antagonists that can make clearly defined epics that the player can easily role play into? Or will the moralities and intentions of ambitious individuals start to become more ambiguous and diverse as ongoing development gives such actors more reasons to perform at odds with larger authorities?
Post by: Nopenope on October 27, 2018, 10:41:37 pm
Post by: golemgunk on October 28, 2018, 02:05:45 am
Post by: Renarin21 on October 28, 2018, 07:07:19 pm
I was referring more to things like merchants trying to build a larger social network, or someone recruiting the relative of a sweetheart to get married, and other things not explicitly intrigue-y.1. Will plotting/intrigue mechanics ever be generalized and used by non-villains, for non-villainous ends?Yes. From this month's FotF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864339#msg7864339):QuoteQuoteiceball3Yeah, "villainous plots" is the current framing, and a handy enough way to think about it, and the starting plots are going to be more on the corrupt/etc. side of things, but even now, some of it can be viewed more as "spy vs. spy" or as a tale of vengeance (which has whatever moral shade) or paranoia. The mechanics will apply to everybody operating in this sphere over time, as things become more interesting. It's just easier to start with the straightforward stuff, and easier to make it player-facing.
Another question: concerning "villainous plots", are the long term plans for these specifically to develop antagonists that can make clearly defined epics that the player can easily role play into? Or will the moralities and intentions of ambitious individuals start to become more ambiguous and diverse as ongoing development gives such actors more reasons to perform at odds with larger authorities?
Post by: Nopenope on October 28, 2018, 11:10:33 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on October 29, 2018, 05:32:02 pm
Also, as there are no customs to control things, I didn't add any placeholder tags here, but I'm open to suggestions if people want to tweak it a bit before those years pass.Im gonna make a new thread for this because its big and doesnt belong here but you offered so :v
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172490.new#new
Also, i have to assume villainous plots include plots by one civs leader to take over other civs from the inside by corrupting their nobles, right?
Post by: Hapchazzard on October 29, 2018, 06:52:11 pm
1. a) Will the intricacies of a villain's schemes depend on their intelligence, so that there's a difference between the plots of some random street thug, an experienced court spymaster and a god of deception?
b) Speaking of schemes, I remember you talking about the investigative process in the game and piquing my interest. What kind of non-verbal clues will the player be able to encounter when investigating something? Letters, out of place items, gold coins from a specific location that were used as a bribe, etc?
c) Are there any plans to improve the observer skill in the villain update? What kind of improvements do you envision?
2. Will characters that are immortal/have extremely long lifespans(elves, magical creatures, deities, mortals augmented by life-prolonging magic) that are intelligent enough potentially have schemes that span centuries until they come to fruition? Will they be able to have numerous contingencies and back-up plans in the cards if things deviate from their predicted course? In general, how complex could plots get when dealing with creatures of vast intelligence and age?
3. How will the motivations of a sapient creature of an extremely alien mindset be simulated? Things like Lovecraftian/non-anthropomorphic deities, or forest spirits, or daemon-like entities representing some obscure sphere?
Now, some questions about magic:
4. Will there be the potential for certain magical spells/actions to become relatively common knowledge (among mages, at least) but the actual reason why they work is completely unknown/misunderstood? Say, the general consensus of why tarot cards work in the world is that Mykhanor, the God of Fate, is dispensing wisdom (and this would be the knowledge the player also has, at least initially) while in actuality Mykhanor isn't even real and the work of tarot cards is actually the product of local spirits messing around with them (but almost no one knows this).
5. How would possessions work when it comes to the player? I can imagine that completely losing control of your character wouldn't really be fun, but at the same time the entity's control of you shuold be simulated in some way.
6. Will dreams be a thing? Since dreams are an extremely common source of prophecies in fantasy, I assume that at least prophetic dreams will be a thing, but what about non-prophetic but somehow relevant dreams as well?
7. Since I assume regular, run-of-the-mill legends are also planned, will sufficiently important legends be able to 'morph' with a civ's creation myth to produce some kind of hybrid?
((Might add more questions a bit later))
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 30, 2018, 03:50:14 am
6: Books are currently written after the author having a dream in DF. Prophetic and perceived prophetic (that actually aren't, but possibly just wishful/dreadful thinking, or villainous lies) ought to be possible for true/false prophets. Otherwise it might be hard to get dreams to feature. There's the real world case of a dream about a snake biting its own tail that led the dreamer to realize what the shape of a benzene ring was, but in DF terms that would probably lead to the writing of a book (although a scientific rather than theological one).
Post by: Real_bang on October 30, 2018, 05:04:39 am
Why are the Adventure overview improvements marked as partially done? Are you planning to rework them/do something more with them?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 30, 2018, 05:15:16 am
Man i cant wait for Fotf of this month :DYes. That's what partially done means. When that might be is another question...
Why are the Adventure overview improvements marked as partially done? Are you planning to rework them/do something more with them?
Post by: Real_bang on October 30, 2018, 06:10:26 am
Damn dude no need to be passive-aggressive. I implied the question of what Toady wants to rework or remake in the Adventure overview. Sorry if i phrased that wrongMan i cant wait for Fotf of this month :DYes. That's what partially done means. When that might be is another question...
Why are the Adventure overview improvements marked as partially done? Are you planning to rework them/do something more with them?
Post by: therahedwig on October 30, 2018, 02:28:30 pm
Because towns were improved a bit however, the line is marked as purple. Just, it could be better, needs some stuff added :)
Post by: GenericUser on October 30, 2018, 03:46:57 pm
2. Will plots be able to smuggle things by taking control of the companies?
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 30, 2018, 04:56:51 pm
1.With Trading Companies, would embargos and trade wars now be a thing? Depriving an area of its trade rather than outright invading it?1. Unlikely. In order for an embargo to hurt the economy, there has to be an economy to hurt, and that arc is a fair bit off. The trade companies are currently being introduced to allow for plots, but the economic part of them will largely have to wait for that framework to be in place. We can assume, however, that Toady has some idea of how to integrate them when that time comes.
2. Will plots be able to smuggle things by taking control of the companies?
2. Largely the same issue: What would you want to smuggle? There are no illegal drugs (currently), so that would basically leave slaves and logs from illegal logging operations in elven territory, but why would they smuggle those if there's no profit from it? There aren't even any taxes to evade...
Post by: feelotraveller on October 30, 2018, 11:39:06 pm
What would you want to smuggle?
Whatever is under an export ban! :D
Though I'm not sure how that could be connected up at the moment in terms of payment/trade, risks to the smugglers (both citizens and trade company rep's) etc.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 31, 2018, 03:26:17 am
A good response! However, with export bans flicking on and off at a whim it's not particularly practical, as the ban will have been lifted by the time you've organized the smuggling operation. Now, a long term ban would be a different issue, in particular an import one. I don't see either being implemented in the near term, though.What would you want to smuggle?
Whatever is under an export ban! :D
Though I'm not sure how that could be connected up at the moment in terms of payment/trade, risks to the smugglers (both citizens and trade company rep's) etc.
Post by: therahedwig on October 31, 2018, 10:56:58 am
Have you considered updating Mantis (the bugtracker software) to the latest version?
I ask because bugtracker software also has bugfixes, and DF's Mantis instance hasn't update in 8 years. And it is rather hard to browse bugs right now because the filters change randomly when going back a page. I wasn't too sure whether to put this in the suggestions forum, because it's such an administrative thing...
Post by: Saiko Kila on October 31, 2018, 12:50:59 pm
Do you plan to add option for reincarnation in belief system or world functioning? If so, would you think about reusing the soul structure, or rather just make it a basis for a new one (which maybe would be more similar to real-world religions).
What about spells resurrecting people (not zombies)?
About the general stuff:
Dwarf Fortress seem to be influenced in many parts by works of JRR Tolkien, either directly or indirectly (like through fantasy games, DnD etc.). When designing current dwarves (mainly their behaviour, character and mental abilities), were you influenced by The Hobbit, where the dwarves are basically whining machines, or the similarity is coincidental? Because if it is intentional, then I must say it's spot on (a compliment). If not maybe you had that vision in the back of your mind?
Post by: Urist McSadist on October 31, 2018, 03:09:12 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 31, 2018, 03:44:38 pm
How exactly are more complicated reactions going to be used during world gen?When? Next release? Post-Big Wait? The far future.
Probably need a little more context for that...
Post by: Loci on October 31, 2018, 03:51:02 pm
And it is rather hard to browse bugs right now because the filters change randomly when going back a page.
The bugtracker has a shared guest account--the filters change because some other guest user modified them. If you are logged in, your filters will only change when you change them. (Being per-user, they still make running two concurrent searches impossible, though.)
From a quick test of Mantis's own tracker, the behavior appears to have changed such that filters are set per-instance, so updating the tracker software would resolve this particular problem. I'm not a big fan of some of the design changes (the "Timeline" looks like the kind of thing management would use to satisfy themselves that 'work is happening', and the nearly-entirely-white backgrounds are eye-strain inducing), though I don't know if those things are customizable.
Post by: therahedwig on October 31, 2018, 05:28:00 pm
Oh lord, that explain so much! Thanks!And it is rather hard to browse bugs right now because the filters change randomly when going back a page.
The bugtracker has a shared guest account--the filters change because some other guest user modified them. If you are logged in, your filters will only change when you change them. (Being per-user, they still make running two concurrent searches impossible, though.)
From a quick test of Mantis's own tracker, the behavior appears to have changed such that filters are set per-instance, so updating the tracker software would resolve this particular problem. I'm not a big fan of some of the design changes (the "Timeline" looks like the kind of thing management would use to satisfy themselves that 'work is happening', and the nearly-entirely-white backgrounds are eye-strain inducing), though I don't know if those things are customizable.
I'll leave it to your discretion whether you want to update. An 8 year difference is nothing to sneeze at, from both the good and bad sides, and even if the guest search is confusing, the rest does seem to work.
EDIT: For what it is worth the df bugtracker has the same white backgrounds as the demo instance, so maybe you toggled a config option somewhere and forgot about it.
Post by: Toady One on November 01, 2018, 02:44:28 pm
Quote from: Asin
Will we ever get another glimpse at the myth generator? I'm pretty sure more than a few players would like to mess around with it and see what happens.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864509#msg7864509
Dozebôm Lolumzalìs: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864515#msg7864515
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864525#msg7864525
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864626#msg7864626
In particular, DG's snippit of my last FotF covers the basic question, and Urlance Woolsbane's comment on the dev log covers the rest -- we'll be dev logging extensively during the big wait, and this will include myth stuff, but the stand- alone generator isn't going to be released (although stand-alone generation is something that'll be possible within the game, as with the current worldgen.)
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Thanks for the answers, Toady. However, an immediate follow up:
The +/-max (10,age/2) check for marriage would mean +max (10, age/2) to -max (10, age/3) in practice if both parties are required to pass the check. However, I can see trouble brewing if the older party tries to pursue an eligible younger one who doesn't find the older one eligible. Currently it probably doesn't matter, but if they are eventually going to act on their desires this can cause them to embark on impossible quests, in particular if the younger one doesn't reject (nor accept, naturally) an advance from someone who's already dismissed for age reasons (although, with time, they will both come within the age range, unless death happens first).
I answered this one early at: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7865728#msg7865728
Quote from: MetroChensual
Will very powerful (as in endgame) adventurers be able to do the stuff a villain can do? Can they be the villains when the player no longer controls them?
Adding to that question, can a retired adventurer change occupations?
The plan is that even a starting adventurer with one loyal buddy can (try to) do the stuff a villain can do. Plots will carry on as applicable when a piece of them is removed.
I'm pretty sure retired adventurers are pretty much like other people when it comes to occupations, but post world-gen, there isn't as much occupation changing at this point.
Quote from: ZM5
Regarding adventure mode pets, will the players be able to acquire one even if they don't start with one? Say, either via taming a wild animal in some way, or via buying them in some kind of new "pet store" that'd show up in sites.
I don't currently have new stores or anything. We're of course pro-new-pets, but we probably won't get to it.
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
Dwarves in various tropes/myths are actually taken to be naturally resistant to many forms of magic. (Just some examples: Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim, D&D.) Will this be the case for the 'default' dwarven race (I get this notion might become more fluid, but putting that aside for the moment) from the myth release onward, relative to other races?
It's really too early to say exactly what we'll need. When they aren't magic-users themselves, it has been a standard way of giving them a competitive advantage and an additional way to distinguish them from humans, yeah, though I'm not sure we'll go the same way. Generally, there are a lot of mostly-not-conflicting dwarven tropes to reckon with once magic comes into play (runes, geomancy, resistance, "good priests", etc. etc.), and we'll have to decide whether we're going to try to put any sort of authorial edge on it, or if we embrace the normal ways. We've kind of been doing both up to this point, and could very well continue to do so. Our elves and goblins are slightly more weird/specific, really, and we'll see how that plays out.
Quote from: Immortal-D
When was the last time you took vacation? Are you planning an extended holiday before starting on Myth & Magic (The Big Wait)? Just want to make sure you properly decompress every once in a while.
It depends on how you count certain things I guess. The speaking trips I go on don't exactly feel like vacations, since there's an element of work involved, but they aren't all bad either. I don't recall my last proper vacation. The last few Augusts have certainly been candidate months for them, as people have mentioned in here.
Quote from: Wigglepuff
Will the deities made in world gen ever demand an amount of worship, and if that amount is not met, will they send catastrophic events to the fortress?
It's certainly a reasonable enough model, and we'll have to see what we get to, especially as it regards fortress-wide or region-level disasters. We've promised that there will be disasters of that scope, so if somebody releases the Kraken on you, well, maybe you shouldn't have provoked your own destruction. (with all previous comments against annoying unavoidable disasters standing of course)
Quote from: George_Chickens
I have a question about general development, if that's appropriate. Once a feature fails to meet a deadline, is it permanently abandoned, or simply put on the backburner? What is the plan to deal with features that could not be implemented due to deadlines?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7867401#msg7867401
^ That pretty much covers it. The backburner is quite large, as is the... the future burner or wherever future stuff that has never been worked on goes. We've revisited plenty of features, and hope to return to everything, but it is true that sometimes stuff gets dropped and then isn't looked at again for a decade or more (see: formations, economy, tavern games, etc.) There isn't a particular schedule for most features, since there are a lot of factors and we must remain flexible to continue.
Quote from: Real_bang
In your presentation you said that we can send our companions to do mischief and that its similar to raid menu in fort mode. Will we be able to specify mischief (like send some guys on a raid/raze/stealing artifact mission) and how will they find the adventurer when they finished with their mission? Like if i send someone to form links i think that he should come back and tell about links that have been formed/mischiefs that he had done. So how will he find me in a big world map?
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7867912#msg7867912
Yeah, I'm leaning toward the rendevous option, especially since we already have (basic) adventurer sites. If there's an additional option that doesn't involve adventurer sites, like "meet me at (pre-existing) tavern X in two weeks", all the better. The mischief options will align with whatever options the post worldgen villains have for their mission orders; my expectation is that this will include general and specific options, but we'll have to see exactly what happens when the simulation gets a say.
Quote from: ShinQuickMan
From your perspective, would it fall under the purview of goblin civilization (or, more specifically, any civ with the babysnatcher tag) to snatch babies from uncivilized peoples, or should they only take interest in civilized sites as is currently? Would be quite FUN to discover that the local Dark Fortress has salt water crocodile men, harpies, and heck, a small population of giants in their ranks.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7868462#msg7868462
Quote from: Real_bang
All questions here about the next update (or updates before the big wait).
1. When playing necromancer or vampire in adventure mode will we be able to promise our companions/random people secrets of life and death/eternal life to get them as our minions (if their goals are the same/similar with the promise)
1.1 Will we be able to turn our whole adventure party into vampires/necros with their agreement?
2. Will loyal adventurers that were with you through some fights with beasts/gobbos/etc. attack you if they find out that you are a vampire/necro?
3. Will we be able to do mischief in fort mode? Make agents, send them to elven forest and make them start a war with humans/do something else
4. You were talking about villains that have a goal but will there be villains without one? Villains whospread chaos/agony/pain? Force of nature Villains as they called. That category might fit demons or beasts
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7868911#msg7868911
1/1.1. Kind of depends on the related w.g. villains, though it does require the additional mechanism of being able to carry through. So it would take a specific push. Dunno what'll happen.
2. They aren't reliable when it comes to this, and I think I'd need to teach them to remember what they've seen a little harder, if you aren't transformed in front of them. Even then, I'm not sure it currently wins out over party loyalty.
3. Seems likely. Once adventurers can do it, it would be an easy add, anyway, and we were already planning on doing off-site investigations at the very least.
4. The obsessed network building is a starter toward this, and there'll likely be some undirected chaos bringing based on personality stuff, and supernatural creatures like demons generally have extreme personalities. Would be premature I think to do more with supernatural motivations.
Quote from: DudeeDew
My questions are mostly related to adventure mode.
1. Will NPCs use dual-wielding? Will dwarves in the fortress use two weapons at once and simultaneous dual-wielding attacks?
2. How good will the disguise system be made? Will it be possible to use magic and special tools to disguise oneself? Like fake beards, made-up scars, for instance, or even a comlpete full-body illusion that makes a human appear and talk as an elf.
3. Will it be possible to effectively impersonate someone to gain some benefit of their position? Like giving some bad orders to the army of your enemy civ and stuff.
4. Will the language ability get some use in the game? So that people will talk among themselves in their native lang and using "common" to talk to others (if they know it), and the player character won't understand anything unless he knows the specific language.
4.1. Also, in case this is implemented, will different civs of the same race have slightly (or strongly) different languages?
5. Haven't really encountered it so far, so I'll ask: will different civs of the same race wage war against each other?
6. Will we have explosives (magical or normal) to use as a mining and/or military tool? Will invaders use tham to destroy dwarven fortifications?
1. They just need to be given a second weapon sometimes, and taught what to do. Just haven't gotten to it.
2. I have no idea what we'll be able to do here in the end. The recent identity rewrite put us in a better position, since there's a visual component to knowledge of other critters now. It needs work, though, to get to the systems you describe.
3. We aren't there yet, but the changes we've made would effectively support that if you could get somebody to think you were somebody else, and there were any person-driven orders of the kind you described. The latter is possibly coming up, as it relates to positions and schemes.
4. We're hoping to do a lot with language at some point, but it's always ended up being a lower priority compared to other features. The notes are pretty extensive at this point, but that's meaningless if we don't work on it.
5. There are ethics checks that make them like each other, usually, though humans have random ethics/values so they should dislike each other on occasion. Religious differences can also do it. Of course, bugs are also possible.
6. Magic that blows stuff up seems popular enough. Other stuff that blows stuff up is an intermittent topic, and we're more or less ambivalent on it; we don't usually go for guns/etc. in our fantasy settings, but as we go, that sort of thing might end up more supported by modding/etc., especially as certain magic items start to look a bit like their technological counterparts at times. If vanilla ended up with a basic black powder option, I wouldn't be shocked either, as it's well within the tech cutoff (1400), and it's easy to add world gen parameter switches to suit tastes.
Quote from: Real_bang
More thinking about next update brings me more questions. In one of your interviews you said that adventurer can actually talk the demon lord out to change his values to love life and he wont go to wars anymore. Will we be able to talk the villains out (just regular rulers, dont think that itll work on vamps or necros) so they will understand that they went on the wrong path and war is actually bad (not if its a war with elfs though) so they will stop scheming and begin normal righteous life. Asking about the next update or updates before the big wait ofc
Also what major bugs are you going to fix before the big wait?
Nothing planned here, aside from what comes out of villainy -- changing courses of action is part of that, so we might actually make some progress. Nothing revolutionary.
Bugs: certainly the stress/broken social stuff still needs some work. Otherwise I'm just going to set aside some time for it, mainly working with the bug tracker; keeping my own lists of priority bugs before fix time is usually pointless, though I have several (they tend to become outdated.) Clearly the end-of-year estimate is going to give way to whatever's been going on with pre-villain stuff, so we're going to go on a bit into 2019 before the big wait begins. Exactly how far is unclear, and certainly won't be until the villains are ready.
Quote from: Magistrum
Because I think our thousands of individual threads for accounting would be way easier with how many meters of thread or how many square meters of cloth. Litres of water would make me feel more comfortable than three waters.
Do you plan on adding measurement units for values? Metric? Would civs have their own measurements?
Though learning that every new gen might end up being just a drag for players...
Yeah, we were late here, and now it's a mess. I'm not sure how we're going to address it. Internally, we've been slowly moving over to e.g. cubic centimeters for a unit of volume, but we need to have the internal conversions done before we can think about civ-based ones. Would be cool, naturally, and I wouldn't mind having, say, an optional toggle between metric and in-universe measures, if we get there.
Quote from: falcc
I made it through a vault and now I have a cute new friend made of filth and grime. What will "befriending" such a creature mean for its role as a villain? Will it still generate schemes for its home civ? Can it be made to very easily influence the civ it is/was running? Will people notice its run off with that supposed monster hunter from Far Away Civ and elevate a new ruler? Could it be switched to using the swapping between adventures interface upon it joining your party (since it is a pretty big investment to get)? If it's sent off screen can it do its own schemes? And please oh please can it try to have its controller assassinated?
I feel like once there's more sense of antagonism possible my friend wouldn't be so friendly in the arrangement we have now. I wouldn't in that position. It certainly seems to want to fight about the nuance of every value, so maybe it'll never really trust me enough to control it directly even if it's compelled to tag along to the extent it is now.
Also, I've gotta say, vaults are a pretty fun dungeon after all my time lost in sewers. Those levers have me so excited for the future.
As long as you are dragging it around, it won't be able to do anything. If you leave it on its own by command, it'll likely still sit there. The only hope would be to give it a general networking order, most likely, and then whatever skills it has in this area would come into play. I'm pretty sure people won't notice it is under your control unless I specifically code that in, since the name-command system isn't entity/civ driven. I suppose it should be controllable in party mode, though there are certain... questions there that are unresolved, and won't be until we understand magic better, at which point it becomes a more clear-cut design issue concerning loyalty/harm-to-self/etc. Hopefully it will hate you, heh. Whether that means it will try to have you killed is up to post w.g. mechanics; if you let it get off the leash, it could very well plot to have you killed, just on the general revenge principle, but it would have to have a network first, which the player might be foolish enough to give it if it proves good at that task. So, hmm, oddly optimistic here.
Of course that gets to the odd genie-wish-type situations of exactly what sort of preventative orders you can give it and how far that ability goes with the name-command power. It isn't likely I'd add anything specific there right now, so let it scheme at your own peril.
Quote from: quekwoambojish
Will Bogeymen be used in Villain plots?
Or will they be removed fixed in myth and magic release?
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7870291#msg7870291
quekwoambojish: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7870382#msg7870382
Bogeyman are always sitting on some list or another to get them properly changed or made more interesting or less common or whatever. This is true now, pre-Wait. We'll see what happens, I guess! No plans to use them in villain plots.
Quote from: kontako
To what extent do you expect to use hyperlinks within / after the development of the coming long-wait update? If my memory serves well, I recall the use of hyperlinks in the myth demo.
I ask with specific reference towards their use between the mentions of Hist. figs., Civilisations, Organisations, Events, etc and a page which defines them.
Or is their inclusion deferred to a particular future update?
I'd like to add them as part of that update, yeah. Putting them in the myth demo was sort of a reminder to myself to get with the 90s already.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Merchants and companies and stuff. Interesting.
Does this mean the merchants who visit your fortress will now be actual exisitng merchants who've travelled across the map from someplace to get to you? Or are they still the magically generated kind?
The hope and current to-do item is that the human merchants will indeed be taken from the trading company pool if they are available. It's probably early to have them actually move on the map though, since we still don't have an economy, though perhaps they can "fake trade" or something (haven't gotten to post w.g. yet.) We won't have the luxury with, say, elves, and the dwarves are still linked to your home civ in too strong a way. So, small steps, but it's something.
Quote from: Real_bang
All questions as usual about the next update. Will we be able to send messenger to trade outposts to request a caravan? If yes will we be able to pick what we need for extra money like with mountainhome? Will we be able send a squad to rob them for good loot. With the addition of merchants will we finally see caravans in adventure mode?
GoblinCookie: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7873163#msg7873163
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Do travelling merchants accompany trade caravans in scheduled visits or do they arrive individually?
I expect they'll replace the scheduled visits, though in some previous notes we did have more of a random, year-round feel to the depot, to be linked with fairs and other matters. The simple option is the scheduled one. If we somehow luck out and the post worldgen movement goes really smoothly, we might have more.
Quote from: Real_bang
You said that there will be villain plots based on revenge. So my question is will there be a hatred for the whole race? Like young elven slave hating on all the humans for killing his relatives so his villain plot would just be "kill as much humans as i can" or something else that would do damage to the whole human race?
Not doing anything with prejudice and bigotry at this point. We've talked about this more generally in here and elsewhere previously, and the road ahead is unclear, though additional related frameworks will be coming in with the status/customs stuff.
Quote from: Slozgo Luzma
Before the big wait, do you have any plans to expand the representation of structures and sites on the world map? For instance, goblins have taverns but the player can't visit them in adventure mode, while dying civilizations that make take their last stand in outdoor tombs that belong to them cannot be visited by the player.
While all these trade changes are being made, might we see player-controlled caravans in fort or adventure mode before the big wait? Or is that definitely something you are leaving until the economy arc?
Nothing in the near-term scheduled like a general site expansion, no. And certainly nothing with the economy; the required frameworks just aren't there. Along those lines, we really need to code up sites better for things like goblin taverns to be feasible, and that's a larger project than I can bite off now.
Quote from: Atomisk
The new stress system is complex and I realized my dwarves could use a vacation.
Were there ever any plans to give dwarves a designation to prioritize relaxation? and only work to satisfy orders/craftmoods slowly?
or is it good enough just to allow them to make work a priority and if they're not given a job, they simply socialize? (Or burrow them, i guess.) I was thinking it's hard to get certain groups of my fort to socialize because they rush to complete work orders. I think there should be a way to ORDER them to go have a chat or a drink! A schedualing system for non-military dwarves to work or play (Months to auto-assign burrows to citizens..)?
With all the activity, missions, and other things going on, Will dwarves ever be allowed to wander the surrounding wilds? Occupation: adventurer?
It could present both happy 'unsupervised free time' thoughts, and they can go collect, hunt, explore, or do whatever they want offsite.. And maybe they bring back an exotic kill, or plant, or some random junk that might not have already been on the map!
Supposedly they do give themselves vacations when their needs get high enough (with the exclamation point.) That doesn't address general stress level, though. We'll see how that plays out when I address social stuff more generally, before I start the magic stuff. It might be that robustly addressing e.g. the friendship issue will be mostly enough to keep the stress levels under control in a properly managed fort. But yeah, something like the old "on break" might be vaguely required... hopefully it doesn't come to that, since it is annoying for its own reasons.
There are already dwarven adventurers that pass through your taverns, so I guess the issue is more, will they ever make a base at your fort, but then go outward instead of downward (unlike the current resident-petitioners.) And will they ever come from your normal migrants deciding to take up a new hobby. It's certainly a reasonable thing that would be consistent with their role in worldgen.
Quote from: KingEdwarf3890
Hey, I get that deities in general won't be worked on until the Magic Update, but at some point before that could you at least fix it so that Adventurers from an Elven civ have a way to satisfy the need to pray? Cause right now praying doesn't work for Elven adventurers even though they have religion. It's cause of the different worship system I think.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7874893#msg7874893
There's not much to add; if it's on the tracker, I might get to it, or it might be blown up by the myth stuff. Agree it's annoying.
Quote from: Beag
1. With merchant caravans being more present in the next update would a new possible adventurer quest to be included before the big wait be guarding the caravan as it moves from one site to another?
2. Will the addition of trade caravans mean local site shops finally having a way to resupply their stock while adventure mode is running?
3. Will certain villians make use of were beasts as minnions in their scemes? Spreading the curse is a great way to sow chaos.
4. With the addition of more personal NPC relationships for purposes of intrigue will our own adventurer's personal relationships with NPCs be shown more clearly?
1. It's quite possible there won't be moving caravans at all. It's still too early for that.
2. We're not doing any economy stuff.
3. It's a reasonable idea, assuming they can pick them out. I don't know that we'll get to anything like that this time.
4. This seems quite possible. There are a few new variables in relationships which are all very important and that you'll want to get at somehow. Whether you deserve to know is a different question. Generally, we'd rather not show you how loyal somebody is or how much they trust you, but there's also a point where it has to give to make the game playable. Going to have to go by feel once we have you scheming and investigating.
Post by: Toady One on November 01, 2018, 02:44:43 pm
Quote from: a52
Will the event knowledge system be reworked any time soon? There are a lot of cases where, say, a location is mentioned to an adventurer, and it doesn't transfer to the adventurer's talk menu, the adventurer's log/status screen, and/or the legends screen (with legends not revealed by default).
iceball3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7874889#msg7874889
a52: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7875441#msg7875441
There's no upcoming systemic rewrite, no, so the information would be useful.
Quote from: squamous
Will we see an overhaul of military invasions before the big wait? Right now they invasion mechanics are more than a little wonky, with armies arriving in small groups over a period of weeks before finally gathering and launching a weird and anticlimactic attack on the site that the player can't really do much about. That's my experience with it anyway. Will this change at all in the future? And also, will the previously mentioned adventure mode military improvements (adventurers leading armies for example) be implemented either?
The army rewrites up on dev cover most of that, yeah, including cleaning up the general feel of it; there's just the question of whether we actually get to all the dev candidates, which is the overarching question hanging over the entire pre-magic cycle here. It depends on the timing, as usual. As the villain release gets larger and farther out, the army stuff becomes less likely. I'd like to do it all, but we'll really have to see. We're not going to make any decisions until after the villain release, as we're handling the stress/social stuff and other bugs. It'll either be time to finish up the dev candidates, or time to embark on the myth/magic stuff.
Quote
Quote from: Real_bangI have some questions about new devlog (as usual at this point, sorry if im overflowing you with questions).
Will trading companies be able to open a branch warehouse in our fortress? If so will multiple companies be able to do it? Will this be the same with religion? What would be our benefit from letting them open a warehouse in our fortress? Will they build it themselves or we will have to construct it for them?
Also this one is kinda offtopic and i think its been answered here before but can Toady put screenshots in devlogs? Or site's engine wont allow it? It would be fun to look at forgotten beast warehouse administrator picture. Or at any picture related to the new things being made (especially when it comes to the big wait)Quote from: NopenopeWill there be trading outposts in player fortresses? Will the player be able to send their own trading outposts?Quote from: NopenopeCan I request that you post more screenshots of the game in your devlogs? I know sometimes you do, but I really do think it would be very helpful (and hype raising) to post more of them whenever you have an interesting feature to preview, like what you did with the myth generator.
Regarding trade outposts, ha ha, we are right on the edge of that sort of thing, suddenly! I'm not sure we'll go farther than the likely human merchant caravans being replaced by the worldgen/post w.g. historical traders, just because it's additional work on a release that has grown and needs to not grow much more. No idea on how it would work specifically if we do attempt it.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7876421#msg7876421
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7876467#msg7876467
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7878256#msg7878256
More or less agree with golemgunk here, that it's harder to take meaningful images of legends-mode type stuff -- I'll sometimes spend time reconstructing a tale from a world's legends instead, as you've read. Back when we were doing village maps, etc., it was way easier to think of screenshots to do, then I pretty much fell off there. I will try to think of it, but not sure I'll improve much there for this time. Certainly the myth/magic stuff will have more, when stuff starts getting interesting out in the world. But I'm not sure villainous plots generally will really have a lot of opportunities for a screenshot that adds anything.
Quote from: Rockphed
When you talk about silly additions, what do you mean? My experience with previous additions is that the silly stuff is normally caused by weird interactions between recently fleshed out systems and systems that are still placeholders.
As Dwarf Fortress gets more complex, how do you check for bugs? It seems too complex to exhaustively search the event space, but just turning it on and seeing what pops out seems likely to miss things. Maybe I should specifically ask how you came to check what happened to the trade warehouse when the fortress got hit by a forgotten beast?
This is correct on the phrase 'silly additions':
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7876641#msg7876641
As for bugs, I just (try my best to) make sure every block of code gets a run through. This often involves logging data, and for stuff like what I'm doing now, checking through legends. So it's through luck/diligence that I spotted the forgotten beast assignment, and for that kind of bug, it'll always come down to a certain amount of testing (since it was a missing piece of edge-case logic, rather than a fault with existing logic or a crash), and I can only increase my chances by doing a bit more checking and being attentive. Structurally, I can prevent bugs like this by, for instance, homogenizing checks for appropriate position holders, etc., and make those corrections and take preventative steps when I can, but there are limits there, and I am also still sloppy sometimes. But generally, individual additions to the code can be given a proper workout without the overall complexity impacting whether or not they work as intended. In some small sense. The overall weird, buggy nature of the game is perhaps confirmation that it's just a giant trundling mess that we herd as it rolls about at this point.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Q - What kind of conditions need to be met before companies* manage to shake hands with dwarves and set up a building belonging to another race in the middle of a market town?
Q - Do organisations present in other civilisations go any further towards the modularity of cities pre-site rewrite development goals? Much in the mind that a long time ago you released development pictures of how villages are formed out of preset pieces but arranged appropriate to population sprawl with space for fields etc. Now we have more structures like these warehouses placing themselves between everything.
*(to keep the answer simple rather than addressing other 'organisations')
I mention this because dwarves and humans tend to be pretty friendly anyway, building roads between one another and regularly taking in adventurer traffic compared to elves who are warlike over cultural dogma and aggrieve other civilisations against them for repulsive habits. There would be circumstances where through player interaction the company's trade would break down if the player took action though right?
The only other example where this happens I can think of is when enemy civilisations decide to build fortifications over a site, like goblin trenches (which don't really do anything to boost positional advantage last time i noticed) usually as a occupier, rather than a voluntary action with overlapping stakes & shares in a city.
I was considering forcing the recipient to also value commerce, but that would pretty much stop outposts entirely. So, currently, the existence of a rich trading company and abstract trade route is enough to grant permission; even with goblins, the abstract trade route doesn't specify where the trades are taking place, though perhaps it can use the "murder all strangers" ethic as a guide there. Overall, I don't have enough customs/etc. data to work with; I suppose I could have added another ethic for it, but it felt like I was already too far afield to get into it.
A lot of this stuff points toward the modular site rewrite, yeah, and as stated above I'm trying very much not to get into that, heh. The new outposts are pretty manageable, as isolated square-type buildings/zones go. I'm more thinking of it now as another data point for the eventual rewrite, especially as it relates to an entity having a foothold within another entity's site in a more public fashion than e.g. sewer-dwelling criminals, though certainly I'll just need to do the rewrite sometime.
Quote from: Beag
1. With human religious groups getting revamped will priests in temples offer religious conversions again?
2. What intrigue quests/interactions do you have in mind for player adventurers to do with religious groups if any?
3. Will elven religion get it's own share of intrigue work? Maybe involving the closest equivalent position they have to a priest, aka druid?
4. In terms of general intrigue and plots in what ways will religious groups interact with other groups both good, evil and neutral?
1. I haven't changed anything there this time, though I no longer remember what happened to it in the first place.
2/4. Still not there yet! We'll describe a plot from the game sometime on the dev log, I promise. Once we've locked that in, it should all apply to your adventurers well. But I'm hesitant to offer up plot points I end up not being able to pull off. I have a feeling some of them are just going to prove unworkable and I'll then salvage what I can -- we've been doing a ton of pre-villain work to help some of them out.
3. I'm not sure it'll have a particular flavor to it, since there's just not a lot to work with there yet. However, the druid can by virtue of their personality become a villain, and then by virtue of their position, most easily pull strings within their own society according to their responsibilities. The druid's responsibility being "RELIGION", we arrive back at #2/4. Generally, we'd like to get as many villain levers linked up with position responsibilities as we can, as it would make the societies feel more themselves overall and make the stories feel correctly directed -- but there are a lot of responsibilities. So we'll see how it goes!
Quote from: Goonts
I have three-ish questions.
1. How raw oriented are the new companies/religions/organizations? While I expect it is mostly hard coded, will they respect ethics and values? Like an elf company refusing to buy or sell wood, or a civilization who is absolutely disgusted by commerce completely lacking companies in the first place.
2.Would an organization that was controlled by a villain or completely corrupted by a villain's plot act villainous? Killing a villain is one thing, but killing an entire evil corporation or cult is another thing entirely.
3. In the absurd case that this does happen (potential bugs notwithstanding), could your entire fortress be roped into a villainous plot and you remain blissfully unaware?
I realize that it may be too early to say if these sorts of things will make the cut before the Big Wait, but can't hurt to ask.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7877181#msg7877181
1. Yeah, the commerce value is a pre-req for company formation already, but as stated above, it was too restrictive to disallow companies to use trade routes in place that don't value commerce. There's some more specific work that needs to be done. The trade goods mimic the trade route -- I don't remember if world gen respected ethics properly in the (mostly invisible) existing trade system, but it just follows that.
2. They act through their leaders right now, so replacing the head with a non-villainous head who isn't corrupted will clean their behavior up. If every position-holder is compromised, it would be difficult to clean it up, but it's still just those people. We are missing that notion of the broader culture of the membership, but there isn't an applicable situation right now. That is, we haven't introduced value drift more broadly into entities, just in that specific way with books and philosophers. If we did value-drift a civ toward worse values, then if a position holder is drawn from the non-historical pool, you'd have that value set in leadership, finally. That's kind of indirect, though. The histfig-entity-population interface is still somewhat weird.
3. Your fortress is completely historical, so it's actually more susceptible to this kind of thing, and theoretical could run into just such a mess. We'll see how likely that is when I get to the fort mode additions; it might not be that common if a large portion of the dwarves turns out to be incorruptible for whatever reason. Ideally, the villains would be able to work on a lot of your people, given enough effort (and assassinate/etc. the rest.) At that point, yeah, your fort would just be a corrupted dump; play-wise, this could be fairly petty, like, your crafts are being smuggled out and then when you tell your sheriff to do something about it, they ignore you, and then you fire your sheriff and put another one in, and they ignore you too -- then the migrants all arrive, I guess, and you put them in all the power positions (since they are more likely to be clean). Then you could have everybody else arrested and locked up forever. Villainous resistance to executing that plan is under consideration, but even if the simple plan works, you'd certainly be paying a price for your earlier lack of crime-fighting. (the assumption being here that you can root out corruption if you pay attention to witness reports, clues, etc., if we get that working!)
Quote from: Real_bang
1. Will villains continue doing their evil stuff after worldgen is finished? I wonder if i can start an adventurer and just pass over some villain like necromancer, will he continue doing his netbuilding/getting corpses/etc. so when i come back to this plot it would be even in worse case than when i first saw it? Will we be able to observe bandits attacking targeted people?
2. Will some villain plots be solved by someone else (at least in worldgen)?
3. You mentioned small crimes so should we expect prison/courthouse type of buildings where they will go if being caught? Or this will be worked on later in law arc?
4. Will you fix fortress retirement before the big wait?
1. This is the plan, to try to keep worldgen and post-worldgen additions as close together as we can. There are always hiccups with this, but we're going to make an effort. Naturally, villain mission goals like "Assassinate X" might look much more silly zoomed in than they do when you are farther away, as we won't be able to teach them very much about discretion, etc., but that's fine for now (they'll either wait to be offloaded, or be indiscreet, depending on my programming mood that day, most likely.)
2. Yeah, counterintelligence is a big part of this. The e.g. "Keeper of the Seals" position will be kept busy. They of course won't be doing actual investigations the same way you'll be able to do them, especially on this first pass, but they will be able to spot corrupt people at times in some abstract sense.
3. Most of this will probably wait. Dwarven justice hasn't relied upon courts to this point, so we can probably continue on without them. And the law stuff is clearly important here.
4. Dunno what bug stuff is gonna happen.
Quote from: Renarin21
1. Will plotting/intrigue mechanics ever be generalized and used by non-villains, for non-villainous ends?
2. I know we won't be able to go to other planes in the near future, but will there be cases where other planes can overlap with the normal world? Like a haunted area where the veil between the living and the afterlife is thin, or (in an extreme case) a throne room for a deity that (in theory) simultaneously exists in multiple planes.
1.
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7878037#msg7878037
Renarin21: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7878717#msg7878717
Yeah, even in the most innocuous cases, the frameworks we are putting into place will be available for use. When we actually get to such uses is another matter entirely, but it's nice to have it all there in a general way. In fact, the agreements used for adventure mode party membership and guides are being used as the principle framework for villainous agents, so we are already using non-villanous mechanics to create villainous ones.
2. Those are the sorts of things we have in the notes for the map rewrite, yeah. The ability to have maps intersect in various ways, with various overlaps or extra (discrete) dimensions as needed, or to be in one map area, and then have it merge with another map area's properties as blocks are loaded, until you are over in one and not the other, perhaps without an easy way to return (e.g. entering a faerie land at a woodline.) The more scenarios we game out in advance, the more we can support with the new infrastructure, with the general restriction that we'll be working locally with 3D cubes of tiles (similar to the current model), and that it's vaguely important to be able to see regional maps that are intelligible in most places (just due to the restrictions of the display, preferring overall world structures with a 2D sense is necessary, though we can still manage interesting vertical caverns and other oddities.)
Quote from: Hapchazzard
First, some villain questions:
1. a) Will the intricacies of a villain's schemes depend on their intelligence, so that there's a difference between the plots of some random street thug, an experienced court spymaster and a god of deception?
b) Speaking of schemes, I remember you talking about the investigative process in the game and piquing my interest. What kind of non-verbal clues will the player be able to encounter when investigating something? Letters, out of place items, gold coins from a specific location that were used as a bribe, etc?
c) Are there any plans to improve the observer skill in the villain update? What kind of improvements do you envision?
2. Will characters that are immortal/have extremely long lifespans(elves, magical creatures, deities, mortals augmented by life-prolonging magic) that are intelligent enough potentially have schemes that span centuries until they come to fruition? Will they be able to have numerous contingencies and back-up plans in the cards if things deviate from their predicted course? In general, how complex could plots get when dealing with creatures of vast intelligence and age?
3. How will the motivations of a sapient creature of an extremely alien mindset be simulated? Things like Lovecraftian/non-anthropomorphic deities, or forest spirits, or daemon-like entities representing some obscure sphere?
Now, some questions about magic:
4. Will there be the potential for certain magical spells/actions to become relatively common knowledge (among mages, at least) but the actual reason why they work is completely unknown/misunderstood? Say, the general consensus of why tarot cards work in the world is that Mykhanor, the God of Fate, is dispensing wisdom (and this would be the knowledge the player also has, at least initially) while in actuality Mykhanor isn't even real and the work of tarot cards is actually the product of local spirits messing around with them (but almost no one knows this).
5. How would possessions work when it comes to the player? I can imagine that completely losing control of your character wouldn't really be fun, but at the same time the entity's control of you shuold be simulated in some way.
6. Will dreams be a thing? Since dreams are an extremely common source of prophecies in fantasy, I assume that at least prophetic dreams will be a thing, but what about non-prophetic but somehow relevant dreams as well?
7. Since I assume regular, run-of-the-mill legends are also planned, will sufficiently important legends be able to 'morph' with a civ's creation myth to produce some kind of hybrid?
1. a) To some extent, though worldgen can't always be picky due to the volume of what we're working with sometimes. We have basic stats/skills, anyway.
b) It's not entirely clear what we'll actually be able to pull off here. Letters are the easiest, since we don't actually have to write their contents, and they can assert whatever facts we need the player to know. Then we'll try to step down from there to make it more interesting, using cultural markers/symbols, items, spatter, whatever we have available (which is quite a lot by now!) If we don't find a way to make that clear, we might have to highlight it in pretty obvious ways (on a skill roll or whatever), but at the very least, it'll be good atmosphere.
c) I don't have a specific plan at this point; it's the kind of thing where the day we add in non-verbal clues, we can be like, oh, cool, yeah, "observer + intrigue skill = cue for player on this clue item" or whatever. If we're lucky, we can make it feel less cludgy.
2. I am limited myself in not possessing either (too) advanced age or vast intelligence, so the schemes will likely be pathetic, cosmically speaking. Still, we have the computer to do some bookkeeping for us, so if an elf/gob/necro agent is activated at just the right time 200 years after being corrupted, the villain will sure seem smart. It's difficult to plan for second or third order contingencies generally, but just a small collection of precautions/chain events will come off seeming pretty cool, I think. And the immortal villains that are obsessed with network building should end up with quite a bit of material, though it'll have to be replaced frequently.
3. I'm not going to try right now. The myth generator is going to give us a ton of material there, hopefully. We can even have player-inscrutable goals that make some sort of cosmic sense once we have metaphysical objects to play with. I'm not sure if this'll be particularly satisfying, since it is inscrutable, but I think it's worth playing with to see what kind of game/systems come out of it. For instance, in the magic model of a force that has moods/personality, where the player has only the ability to use inaccurate divination to maybe get a vague idea of how their magic is feeling today, a supernatural creature might have a much clearer window into the force, or even a way to converse with or otherwise change it. Even presented in an almost straight-up fashion, that could be quite interesting, and then we'll have that experience available to modify and layer with new systems and exposition, according to our sensibilities. I'm hopeful, anyway. Of course, the more alien the entity is, the harder it is to properly model, but maybe just being random with a correct-feeling gloss starts working at that point.
4. This will almost certainly happen in some way, yeah, though the specific possibilities will be up to what we get to. But the triggers for effects won't always depend on complete understanding.
5. Yeah, I'm not sure yet. If it's permanent/serious, you might just have to retire and play somebody else, so the possession can take full effect and not be hampered by the current restrictions on NPC local play.
6. PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7879500#msg7879500
Regular, sleeping dreams for everybody would be a questionable processor hit, but being able to ask somebody about their last dream and then having it generate on the fly would be feasible. Generally, we can just spool out random stuff with some sort of salience metric against the person's life (so their friends are more likely to appear, etc.), but it isn't a high priority. On the other hand, if we do dip into some sort of dream realm/magic stuff, we could use similar methods to the populate an entire temporary pocket map or whatever and get all Dreamscape in there. But yeah, just a totally random thing that's likely to happen on a lark as much as anything.
7. It's a tricky problem, generally, to get them understood in that higher structural way so that the morphs can also be kept internally consistent (even on a really basic level.) We'll have to see how successful we are with the basic 'fake' myths, and go from there.
Quote from: Real_bang
Why are the Adventure overview improvements marked as partially done? Are you planning to rework them/do something more with them?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7879523#msg7879523
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7879770#msg7879770
I don't recall exactly what it was (it's in the notes), some information tidbits that I wanted to get to but didn't. There's just more to be done. In this game, of course, "done" is never really *done*, exactly, so "partially done" is even more nebulous. But I definitely didn't feel like I got where I wanted to be, and there are outstanding specific notes to that effect on the dwarf computer.
Quote from: GenericUser
1.With Trading Companies, would embargos and trade wars now be a thing? Depriving an area of its trade rather than outright invading it?
2. Will plots be able to smuggle things by taking control of the companies?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7879862#msg7879862
Quote from: therahedwig
Have you considered updating Mantis (the bugtracker software) to the latest version?
Ah, yes, I downloaded it recently, and just need to find time somewhere where I feel free enough to deal with what'll likely be a series of issues getting it to actually work.
Quote from: Saiko Kila
About magic, religion and word functioning:
Do you plan to add option for reincarnation in belief system or world functioning? If so, would you think about reusing the soul structure, or rather just make it a basis for a new one (which maybe would be more similar to real-world religions).
What about spells resurrecting people (not zombies)?
About the general stuff:
Dwarf Fortress seem to be influenced in many parts by works of JRR Tolkien, either directly or indirectly (like through fantasy games, DnD etc.). When designing current dwarves (mainly their behaviour, character and mental abilities), were you influenced by The Hobbit, where the dwarves are basically whining machines, or the similarity is coincidental? Because if it is intentional, then I must say it's spot on (a compliment). If not maybe you had that vision in the back of your mind?
Reincarnation is in the current myth generator. The issue of soul re-use is complicated, since most (?) reincarnation models don't have the memories/skills/relationships/etc. cleanly carrying over, but they are often available in some nebuluous sense.
Resurrection is already a (unused, possibly buggy) spell effect in the currently released version, if I remember.
Ha ha, yeah, I'm sure that had a lot to do with it. Even the cartoon was popular in our house growing up, and our dwarves are quite a bit like that.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
How exactly are more complicated reactions going to be used during world gen?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7880292#msg7880292
Sorry the A part of the Q&A rolled around before you could clarify. If you are talking about the moddable "reactions", then it is indeed broken there; it's a chore to code up the economic stuff in a way that respects all the reagents properly, so they often get, say, bronze, without access to the ores needed. The pressure to fix that will increase once the economy's running and we set more jobs out into the raw files. Feel free to repost your question for next time if that's not what you meant.
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 01, 2018, 03:04:13 pm
Post by: falcc on November 01, 2018, 04:38:15 pm
As long as you are dragging it around, it won't be able to do anything. If you leave it on its own by command, it'll likely still sit there. The only hope would be to give it a general networking order, most likely, and then whatever skills it has in this area would come into play. I'm pretty sure people won't notice it is under your control unless I specifically code that in, since the name-command system isn't entity/civ driven. I suppose it should be controllable in party mode, though there are certain... questions there that are unresolved, and won't be until we understand magic better, at which point it becomes a more clear-cut design issue concerning loyalty/harm-to-self/etc. Hopefully it will hate you, heh. Whether that means it will try to have you killed is up to post w.g. mechanics; if you let it get off the leash, it could very well plot to have you killed, just on the general revenge principle, but it would have to have a network first, which the player might be foolish enough to give it if it proves good at that task. So, hmm, oddly optimistic here.
Ehehehe. Wonderful. Anybody forcing a grimy friend to follow their every command isn't being a good friend and deserves some comeuppance.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 01, 2018, 04:43:15 pm
Quote
Supposedly they do give themselves vacations when their needs get high enough (with the exclamation point.) That doesn't address general stress level, though. We'll see how that plays out when I address social stuff more generally, before I start the magic stuff. It might be that robustly addressing e.g. the friendship issue will be mostly enough to keep the stress levels under control in a properly managed fort. But yeah, something like the old "on break" might be vaguely required... hopefully it doesn't come to that, since it is annoying for its own reasons.
Never seen that in my own game or reported on the stress & needs thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171185.0) Toady, im quite sure that's them screaming into the wind because a particular memory has stuck to them, there aren't any states that i know of that force dwarves to relax. Checking the values in DFhack setting them to full or zero doesn't do much to deter them from the present activities they are trying to fill from trying to resolve dwarves needs.
Or have i misunderstood and this is your proposed solution @Toady?
Though funnily enough i had a farmer scream over the death of his friend in a state of emotional terror for 5 years before it drove him insane, i think i mentioned it on the original 44.12 release thread because the memory kept playing over the trauma for him which most definitely had a exclaimation mark.
Post by: therahedwig on November 01, 2018, 05:49:14 pm
QuoteSupposedly they do give themselves vacations when their needs get high enough (with the exclamation point.) That doesn't address general stress level, though. We'll see how that plays out when I address social stuff more generally, before I start the magic stuff. It might be that robustly addressing e.g. the friendship issue will be mostly enough to keep the stress levels under control in a properly managed fort. But yeah, something like the old "on break" might be vaguely required... hopefully it doesn't come to that, since it is annoying for its own reasons.
Never seen that in my own game or reported on the stress & needs thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171185.0) Toady, im quite sure that's them screaming into the wind because a particular memory has stuck to them, there aren't any states that i know of that force dwarves to relax. Checking the values in DFhack setting them to full or zero doesn't do much to deter them from the present activities they are trying to fill from trying to resolve dwarves needs.
Or have i misunderstood and this is your proposed solution @Toady?
Though funnily enough i had a farmer scream over the death of his friend in a state of emotional terror for 5 years before it drove him insane, i think i mentioned it on the original 44.12 release thread because the memory kept playing over the trauma for him which most definitely had a exclaimation mark.
I think he was talking about !Worship!. (Purple is unreadable, so hence red).
They strictly speaking are on breaks when they're socializing/praying. It's just that right now socializing doesn't work like it should.
Post by: Bumber on November 02, 2018, 10:23:22 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 03, 2018, 06:00:59 am
Are strange moods going to be overhauled during the upcoming Myth and Magic arc?
Question has been answered before, the inevitability is that yes they would be reworked but really so much as far as possessed moods and the background for how a supernatural ability is created/imparted upon a race (unless its written off/rationalised as a dwarf species quirk to imaginitiveness/erratic & obsessive behaviour) so probably more flexibility on inducement & types according to how mythological statuses (and of course more direct means of possessed moods) and dieties are formed.
You could well say that immortality of elves & goblins may end up going one way or another just on the whim of the myth editor depending on how vunerable they'll be to the upcoming changes. In its presented state it seems the Myth Editor will be dealing wild cards.
Post by: Death Dragon on November 04, 2018, 03:57:33 pm
The overall weird, buggy nature of the game is perhaps confirmation that it's just a giant trundling mess that we herd as it rolls about at this point.Instantly one of my favourite Toady quotes.
Post by: Doorkeeper on November 04, 2018, 11:47:40 pm
More or less agree with golemgunk here, that it's harder to take meaningful images of legends-mode type stuff -- I'll sometimes spend time reconstructing a tale from a world's legends instead, as you've read. Back when we were doing village maps, etc., it was way easier to think of screenshots to do, then I pretty much fell off there. I will try to think of it, but not sure I'll improve much there for this time. Certainly the myth/magic stuff will have more, when stuff starts getting interesting out in the world. But I'm not sure villainous plots generally will really have a lot of opportunities for a screenshot that adds anything.
Thanks for the explanation, Toady.
Post by: Jacubus on November 10, 2018, 02:29:23 pm
On similar note, you had also mentioned priests doing similar thing in a devlog, will they travel to player fortress temples?
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 10, 2018, 03:21:12 pm
Will we be able to interact with trade companies in fortress mode or are they world gen only?
On similar note, you had also mentioned priests doing similar thing in a devlog, will they travel to player fortress temples?
Quote from: ToadyOne
Quote
Quote from: Real_bang
I have some questions about new devlog (as usual at this point, sorry if im overflowing you with questions).
Will trading companies be able to open a branch warehouse in our fortress? If so will multiple companies be able to do it? Will this be the same with religion? What would be our benefit from letting them open a warehouse in our fortress? Will they build it themselves or we will have to construct it for them?
Also this one is kinda offtopic and i think its been answered here before but can Toady put screenshots in devlogs? Or site's engine wont allow it? It would be fun to look at forgotten beast warehouse administrator picture. Or at any picture related to the new things being made (especially when it comes to the big wait)
Quote from: Nopenope
Will there be trading outposts in player fortresses? Will the player be able to send their own trading outposts?
Quote from: Nopenope
Can I request that you post more screenshots of the game in your devlogs? I know sometimes you do, but I really do think it would be very helpful (and hype raising) to post more of them whenever you have an interesting feature to preview, like what you did with the myth generator.
Regarding trade outposts, ha ha, we are right on the edge of that sort of thing, suddenly! I'm not sure we'll go farther than the likely human merchant caravans being replaced by the worldgen/post w.g. historical traders, just because it's additional work on a release that has grown and needs to not grow much more. No idea on how it would work specifically if we do attempt it.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7876421#msg7876421
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7876467#msg7876467
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7878256#msg7878256
More or less agree with golemgunk here, that it's harder to take meaningful images of legends-mode type stuff -- I'll sometimes spend time reconstructing a tale from a world's legends instead, as you've read. Back when we were doing village maps, etc., it was way easier to think of screenshots to do, then I pretty much fell off there. I will try to think of it, but not sure I'll improve much there for this time. Certainly the myth/magic stuff will have more, when stuff starts getting interesting out in the world. But I'm not sure villainous plots generally will really have a lot of opportunities for a screenshot that adds anything.
Your questions were already high in demand Jacubus, i think you'll find what you're looking for in the above exerpt of last months fortress reply on the topic.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 10, 2018, 09:45:47 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on November 11, 2018, 05:12:22 am
For those who haven't seen it, the live-twittering (https://twitter.com/GotlandGAME/status/1061352918819975168) in question.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 12, 2018, 10:59:56 am
Would you ever consider adding non-ascii graphics to the game, to help communicate things that would be hard to illustrate using text alone? Thinking of things like a spherical world map, for example.
Mainly asking if you consider that to be an option or if you're attached to the classic ascii. Or if it would be too annoying to implement other graphics into the game.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 12, 2018, 11:52:09 am
This... probably has been asked before, maybe even by myself. But I have the memory of a goldfish so I'll ask it anyway.- Based on what Toady has said about earlier ventured into graphics, it is a relief not to have to deal with it in DF, because it takes so much work to make changes that affect graphics.
Would you ever consider adding non-ascii graphics to the game, to help communicate things that would be hard to illustrate using text alone? Thinking of things like a spherical world map, for example.
Mainly asking if you consider that to be an option or if you're attached to the classic ascii. Or if it would be too annoying to implement other graphics into the game.
- A spherical world is a rather poor example, as it's been discussed recently that any kind of map that results in map tile edges not aligning orthogonally is a pain, while a cylinder or torus would work (technically the inner side of the torus would be narrower than the outer one, but that can be ignored, just as the narrowness of poles on "normal" map is adapted to through distortion).
- ASCII (or rather, characters, as the code page used isn't actually ASCII) is not a goal in itself, but rather a means that makes development of contents reasonably easy without wasting time on adjusting graphics. Toady has commented that DF is out of characters to use before, and DF will probably move to a character set with more bits eventually (I wouldn't be surprised if it came as an emergency/mood effort at some time).
- There are talented tile set developers in the community, so it would be a waste to have Toady "compete" with them rather than developing contents.
Post by: therahedwig on November 12, 2018, 12:58:42 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on November 12, 2018, 08:00:04 pm
Post by: KittyTac on November 12, 2018, 10:07:05 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 13, 2018, 03:31:17 am
Why don't we ignore the gaps between tiles in a spherical world (like a disco ball)?I'm not sure I understand the disco ball reference (a very long time since I saw one), but moving one tile left, then one tile north, and then one tile south shouldn't land you in the same tile you started in, as that is rather illogical and confusing. While you can technically construct a world made out of bands of tiles with different numbers of tiles per band, not knowing which tile you end up in when crossing a N/S boundary (or E/W if you cut the world the other way), but possibly having that depend on where (in the E/W direction you leave the tile is not something that makes for a good player experience.
You may also take a look at map projection techniques to get an understanding of how every attempt to depict a sphere (which actually is a bit flattened and uneven), or other kind of curved surface, onto a flat surface is an exercise in making compromises between various goals (preserving angles, preserving area size, etc.).
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 13, 2018, 07:15:36 am
Why don't we ignore the gaps between tiles in a spherical world (like a disco ball)?I'm not sure I understand the disco ball reference (a very long time since I saw one), but moving one tile left, then one tile north, and then one tile south shouldn't land you in the same tile you started in, as that is rather illogical and confusing. While you can technically construct a world made out of bands of tiles with different numbers of tiles per band, not knowing which tile you end up in when crossing a N/S boundary (or E/W if you cut the world the other way), but possibly having that depend on where (in the E/W direction you leave the tile is not something that makes for a good player experience.
You may also take a look at map projection techniques to get an understanding of how every attempt to depict a sphere (which actually is a bit flattened and uneven), or other kind of curved surface, onto a flat surface is an exercise in making compromises between various goals (preserving angles, preserving area size, etc.).
I'm getting Deja-vu here, where have I heard this discussion before?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 13, 2018, 08:49:07 am
I'm asking about graphics, not art. The point of adding, for example, 3d graphics to the game would not to make it look prettier, but to make it be less of a pain to display things like a sphere. It could also allow for more moderate support for art, but that's definately a side benefit here to the UI aspect. There's only so much you can show using tiles and description.Suggestions forum is what you want. (it's OK to necro one of the many graphics threads to add your technical expertise to whatever discussions have gone before).
Dwarf Fortress exists because a conscious decision was made to not use 3D graphics, so it's not likely to get beyond "ideas to support the modders making 3D graphics for the game".
Post by: Inarius on November 13, 2018, 11:40:41 am
Post by: therahedwig on November 13, 2018, 02:40:17 pm
But my character couldn't tell people about what I'd just read. Even funnier, looking at the stories my character knew, it seems she already knew about the criminal organisation and that they'd died from that Roc. And telling the story didn't generate a rumour either. So I have several questions:
1. What exactly is causing this rift between stories and rumours?
2. Is that also why my character, who can read, and read that gravestone cannot gain the information that these people are already dead?
3. Do you want a bugreport for this, or is it just a case of missing features?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 14, 2018, 12:53:58 am
Just in case the answer's not apparent by the end of the month, I enjoyed the live twittering of your talk yesterday, but will there be a video/audio?Answered in Toady's latest Tweet (probably not).
Oh well. Thank you!
https://twitter.com/GotlandGAME/status/1061352918819975168?s=09
Post by: Grand Sage on November 16, 2018, 08:20:45 am
With vampires beeing candidates for villanious plots, how will the next update affect vampire cults?
I realise its a small, easily overseeable feature, but i just want to make sure that nothing "breaks" there if i start playing around with vamps in this release.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 16, 2018, 09:29:33 am
Will there be any rules on who can join particular night beast or enclosed villian network?
EI you must be willingly converted into a vampire to join a vampire cult's scheme or be recruited from many of the blood drinkers hiding away in civilisations with the associated secret handshakes that come with the job.
Post by: KittyTac on November 16, 2018, 10:00:17 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 16, 2018, 10:07:13 am
Will there be procedurally-generated secret handshakes?
Ah yes, the coveted overhand pinky finger tussel, spinning around in a circle & while doing a headstand reciting the poem "The Lyres of Trussing"
Post by: Grand Sage on November 16, 2018, 10:33:35 am
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 17, 2018, 08:59:49 am
EI you must be willingly converted into a vampire to join a vampire cult's scheme or be recruited from many of the blood drinkers hiding away in civilisations with the associated secret handshakes that come with the job.
I thought non-vampires would be much in demand in vampire circles for nutritional reasons............
Post by: squamous on November 17, 2018, 09:42:27 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 17, 2018, 11:57:55 am
Will the villain update change how hearthperson quests work? Like the "cause trouble" quest for bandits is one people still aren't quite sure how to solve, so will it be replaced by more complex villain shenanigans?
Bandit quests at least can be completed, it's "drive off group" that's broken: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9995 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9995)
Post by: FrankVill on November 17, 2018, 02:51:58 pm
1- In what arc do you plan to make that almost all dwarfs dream on the night and there was silence and quiet under the moon? and what previous requisits would the game needs to have by you could implement it?
2- How do you believe that it could affect at game rythm? I sometimes imagine the possible result and I think that any construction would be slower or something like this ( I am too accustomed to frenetic life style of dwarfs, ha ha)
3- Is there any future feature waiting for night dreams or this only would change the way of tell stories? (maybe vampyrs will become more interesting than now)
Post by: Grand Sage on November 17, 2018, 05:21:55 pm
Nowadays dwarfs only sleep or eat in order of their own needs. They don´t seem that day/night cycle have any influence on them. There is always a constant activity in every fortress.
1- In what arc do you plan to make that almost all dwarfs dream on the night and there was silence and quiet under the moon? and what previous requisits would the game needs to have by you could implement it?
2- How do you believe that it could affect at game rythm? I sometimes imagine the possible result and I think that any construction would be slower or something like this ( I am too accustomed to frenetic life style of dwarfs, ha ha)
3- Is there any future feature waiting for night dreams or this only would change the way of tell stories? (maybe vampyrs will become more interesting than now)
actually, they do sleep at night in adventure mode. As for fortress mode, there IS no day/night cycle to speak of. If you look at the date on the z-screen, you'll see why: the days are going by very fast. So dwarfs actually sleep once a month or so, rather then every night. Toady has previously stated that that time-discrepancy is unlikely to be fixed, at least not any time soon, because it is such an integrated part of the game.
Post by: therahedwig on November 17, 2018, 05:27:10 pm
Post by: DG on November 18, 2018, 12:12:57 am
If worst comes to worst, for those of us who want it, we can just wait for all fortmode features to be put into adventure mode and then just pretend that fortmode doesn't exist. :P
*a memory too vague to know where to find a relevant quote, so apply a grain of salt. I did find the one about not yet having an answer to the time discrepancy and that it will likely only get worse http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7410016#msg7410016
Post by: Bumber on November 18, 2018, 02:21:11 am
Post by: Inarius on November 18, 2018, 06:58:35 am
Post by: therahedwig on November 18, 2018, 07:26:42 am
Or he went sightseeing in the new adventure mode locations he was gonna poke at :p
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 18, 2018, 07:38:35 am
Day/night cycles, normal eating frequency, etc. more or less require fortress dorfs to move at full speed, as well as a dramatic revamp of agriculture to provide those mountains of food (which probably requires stockpiles to be revised as well, so all that stuff can be stored). As mentioned, it also would make any fortress level activities take an eternity (or, rather, about 72 times as long).
Of course, you can introduce day/might visual effects that flicker on and off, but that doesn't provide any game play benefit.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 19, 2018, 10:24:33 pm
So that means we're not due an update until Thursday/Friday. Yeah. Stay calm. Stop hammering refresh...
(Toady was gushing about Ultima Underworld on Twitter a couple of days ago, and Liking related tweets just 10 hours ago, so nothing's seriously wrong).
--Edit
Oh, there we go. Jetlag, yeah I can totally get that.
"Only" religion and corruption to go. :)
Post by: therahedwig on November 21, 2018, 02:08:56 pm
1. Friendships and similar links are made during worldgen and in fort mode. Will, if we expel a dwarf, this dwarf continue creating such links in the hillocks or wherever they are?
From the devlogs(08/18) and comments by a.o. rumrusher in the adventure mode forum, I understand that one of the reasons that adventure mode skirmishes tend to be a little lackluster is because most figures in adventure mode are pulled from the entity pops and are just answering questions from a flashcard, which is what leads to all the 'I know who my liege is, but I have no opinion on them and also can't tell you where they are' because they never met their liege being fresh histfigs, and so if they see the guy attacked it's like 'I have no real opinion on this person, but that fight sure looks scary' and then they run away. And all this linking stuff is to reduce that type of response (because it would make villains inciting trouble also pretty lackluster).
2. Is it planned to have the fresh histfigs make use of all these new positions and the like to guess at how they feel about an attack or a person? Like, will a fresh peasant, who follows the god of agriculture really religiously, recognize the priest of that religion and infer they have a link? Or a weaver recognize their guild representatives and try to help them when they're in trouble? Or is this only for preexisting histfigs for now?
3. Now that such links are more important in the world sim, will we be getting information about those links being made through the rumour system. Or, to be more blunt: Will the npcs now do proper gossiping instead of just scaring each other with stories about the dragon in the cave on the other end of the world? Because I've never come across for example, them telling each other so-and-so had a baby even though that is definitely something that happens in the world sim.
4. Do you think the upcoming system would already be capable of world war 1 diplomacy cascades where one thing goes wrong and several linked entities are suddenly at war with one another?
Post by: Rowanas on November 22, 2018, 08:18:32 am
Will dwarves always be the primary protagonists of the game? Will they cease to exist in no magic realms? Will the name of the game change if Dwarves are deposed in such a fashion? Bonus question - What can I do to make sure Dwarves are always in the limelight, because screw playin filthy humies.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 22, 2018, 09:07:22 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 22, 2018, 11:11:02 am
Post by: Egan_BW on November 22, 2018, 11:19:23 am
Post by: KittyTac on November 22, 2018, 11:25:14 am
And then you get to the world where your "dwarves" are maggot people digging around in the bowels of some world-sized creature.Watch out for that giant white blood cell...
Also, changing the game's name would cause confusion, so it's not wise to do that. The game has existed for 15 years now.
Post by: Beag on November 23, 2018, 07:30:55 pm
2. If they do perform drafts might our player adventurers from those civilizations sometimes be drafted into the army?
3. Will the purposes of magic organizations include more things besides magic related stuff? For example in one world could a civilization have an army of war wizards?
4. If drafts are a thing that can be performed will our adventurer made hamlets eventually be able to draft citizens into our armies?
Post by: Death Dragon on November 23, 2018, 07:46:34 pm
Will modders be able to restrict certain civilisations from being able to found organisation entities like those?
I'm sure this one has been asked before, but:
In the latest Threetoe story it says
"They often spent years in an unbroken trance, projecting their spirits into Osoai. In that place, where lost souls swam, time passed quickly, so that during what seemed like an hour spent there, a year passed on Earth."
Would these differing time scales between worlds actually be doable in DF? When you return to the normal world, you'd have to wait for the time progression to be calculated, which would surely take a long (real life) time. Did you think of any possible work around for this?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 23, 2018, 09:38:17 pm
Quote from: Death Dragon
Would these differing time scales between worlds actually be doable in DF? When you return to the normal world, you'd have to wait for the time progression to be calculated, which would surely take a long (real life) time. Did you think of any possible work around for this?It's been discussed in the past, yes. Skipping large chunks of time quickly, like in initial worldgen, seems to be an eventual goal (reinforced in this story, but also in the more mundane goal of "settle down, retire, play as your descendents".
To paraphrase Toady, tehnically it's really difficult and won't be something to address on a whim. But, not impossible and may be attempted one day.
Post by: Townsey on November 24, 2018, 04:00:46 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 24, 2018, 04:49:59 am
In adventure mode, will creatures raised using necromancer abilities be treated as pets? Perhaps even making them mountable?
Its subjective and will really depend on how pernament and the circumstances necromancy will be after the magic system is put in, right now i think it treats them as 'implicit followers' since they're connected to you personally and in some bugs might attack the other people you're travelling with.
EI: You ressurect your lifetime friend's corpse, they would now either be your pet under your definition or if the magic had criteria to make soulless/soul-bound undead intelligent people he'd be your follower, but probably not both and would carry out actions to your whim he would not commit in life.
Question building upon the one above: Will interactions with megabeasts ever be the target of villian networks. ei:such as the said necromancer building forces or hiring agents to slay a dragon so he can command and ride it personally into battle through ressurection being the cataclysmic end-goal.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 24, 2018, 04:55:32 am
In adventure mode, will creatures raised using necromancer abilities be treated as pets? Perhaps even making them mountable?Above reply is for the long term, but do you just mean, "in the next release when pets are introduced"?
Post by: Death Dragon on November 24, 2018, 10:20:25 am
In adventure mode, will creatures raised using necromancer abilities be treated as pets? Perhaps even making them mountable?It would be absolutely amazing is this is part of the next update.
Post by: WordsandChaos on November 24, 2018, 11:35:58 am
For religions in the world, how expansive will the framework for that be? Will it draw a distinction between a dominant/origin/umbrella faith and religious denominations/subgroups/sects/cults? Or is the plan to treat everything as an entirely seperate group?
Is there any plans to change how groups currently handle identity change? They currently seem to reinvent themselves anytime someone in charge kicks the bucket and is succeded by another member, which inadvertantly stops them from gaining a recognisable presence or legacy in the world due to the rate of turnover.
Post by: therahedwig on November 24, 2018, 11:46:03 am
In adventure mode, will creatures raised using necromancer abilities be treated as pets? Perhaps even making them mountable?
I think it was mentioned in a previous FotF answer post that undead horses were out because they don't have a soul and the current instruction system relies on the recipient having a soul.
QuoteWill we be able to ride animated undead animals, even if they haven't been tamed?I don't think undead mounts will work currently. Soulless creatures cannot accept commands, even without the issue of non-tame creatures not being mountable. It'll require a better understanding of magic to get that sort of thing working when it should.
[...]Quote2. Will the ability to command allies extend to zombies created with Necromancy?2. It isn't part of the spell, no, and souls are currently required.
WordsandChaos, silly question, do you mean that the groups themselves feel inconsistent in their goals or that figures with fake identities do weird stuff when the leader of a group they're part of dies?
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 24, 2018, 12:44:59 pm
For religions in the world, how expansive will the framework for that be? Will it draw a distinction between a dominant/origin/umbrella faith and religious branches/subgroups/sects/cults? Or is the plan to treat everything as an entirely seperate group?
Is there any plans to change how groups currently handle identity change? They currently seem to reinvent themselves anytime someone in charge kicks the bucket and is succeded by another member, which inadvertantly stops them from gaining a recognisable presence or legacy in the world due to the rate of turnover.
A. We dont know anything yet, but organisations like the trade outposts influencing the world under a entity may yet help define the different moving parts of a religion, as to religion itself it is sphere based and hence sometimes dieties take up multiple causes or you have two dieties attached to the same related thing, that line of thought would be greater expanded in the magic arc for more defined diety roles as well as a narrated creation story.
B. This is because entity is a framework upon the singular individuals who are sometimes different.
Demons are cruel by nature, as are goblins, but if you put a non-goblin with non-goblin values in charge the civilisation will not change but the leadership choice may cause them attack less or different targets, humans on the other hand when lead by extreme value and violent leaders are the type to start wars .
Villian plots may shake this up by adding more rungs of government, to ensure that a villian through a elaborate conspiracy can nominate themselves or the next best candidate to the leadership and seize power by having the people in charge in pocket. Maybe to earn enough power to win back a heirloom etc or settle a grudge though at the minute, succession is random or very one dimensional.
Post by: WordsandChaos on November 25, 2018, 08:18:03 am
WordsandChaos, silly question, do you mean that the groups themselves feel inconsistent in their goals or that figures with fake identities do weird stuff when the leader of a group they're part of dies?
No, problem. I meant like a criminal group will start out as the Blue Underpants, and then the leader gets killed and someone takes over and they instantly reform as the Magenta Ring Finger, and if they die two days later, whoever succeeds them will instantly reform the group as the Reclusive Bumblebee. Seems like the successor should just take over as the leader of the Blue Underpants. The idea of reforming under a new name or organisational schisms and so on is really cool, but the way it works now is a little "identity crisis" and inadvertantly detracts from the emergent story aspect of Dwarf Fortress.
I guess, as FantasticDorf pointed out, it depends on whether the group framework is tied to the individual characters and so can't exist without them, or is rather a seperate framework in itself with slots that can be filled and emptied by characters, without needing an group member to invent an entire new group (not something I'd considered previously).
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 25, 2018, 02:31:08 pm
If anything, it'd be neat if nations could change names after major upheaval, while stuff like criminal gangs stay static barring much greater turmoil. Groups that count as holding power in a city or country likely could remain as they are, as they SEEM to remain static so long as the current dynasty or power structure is still in place. Which means that if criminal gangs aren't adhering to the same standard (and I'm remembering right and dynasties DO preserve the name better than criminal gangs), it wouldn't be hard to make one consistent with the other.
That said, changing country names would ideally need some way to cite the prior name and only change it a bit, either only by a single-step change, or by having a preference towards always retaining a single central element of the name. For example Regnum Francorum, Francia occidentalis, etc (one that eventually demonstrates a shift in the preferred language used in its terminology if you follow it far enough, and one that starts early on with one entity becoming two, two things that can't yet happen in DF).
The example of deriving a name from a preceding name could also be adapted to handling family names. In the event that an entity doesn't just use a modern surname convention, this can be used to inject things like patronyms, matronyms, even compound surnames based off both parents. Though, now that I think about it...
What are your thoughts on the in-universe way the current placeholder for surnames is handled? My guess is that it's instead essentially a second given name, presumably chosen by whichever parent didn't decide their first name, or possibly a compound surname influenced by both parents in some way that doesn't yet reliably produce results logical to an outside observer, which would work very well for adapting into a proper compound surname via changing how the compound is generated.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 26, 2018, 03:46:37 am
I guess, as FantasticDorf pointed out, it depends on whether the group framework is tied to the individual characters and so can't exist without them, or is rather a seperate framework in itself with slots that can be filled and emptied by characters, without needing an group member to invent an entire new group (not something I'd considered previously).
Exactly, if you're playing a game with a dead dwarf civilisation, often one of your dwarves on site will be nominated to be the new ruler unless someone else has the claim elsewhere in the wilderness of the world. Game saw a empty slot, had nobody to fill it so picked out one of your dwarves because typically some criteria was met irregardless of other personal factors like whether they'd be legally able or related by bloodlines well enough to take over the monarchy.
Naming continuity is something that'd be interesting to see, true. Some entities in the code retain a continuous name (like country names), while others are in flux.
If anything, it'd be neat if nations could change names after major upheaval, while stuff like criminal gangs stay static barring much greater turmoil. Groups that count as holding power in a city or country likely could remain as they are, as they SEEM to remain static so long as the current dynasty or power structure is still in place. Which means that if criminal gangs aren't adhering to the same standard (and I'm remembering right and dynasties DO preserve the name better than criminal gangs), it wouldn't be hard to make one consistent with the other.
If anything it'd be a lot like Genghis Khan, a adventurer with a inbuilt set of advantages of the player's ability takes on numerous beasts, monsters and foes and conquers a large empire before retiring it, leaving it to his children within the simulation, but soon without the adventurer's leadership the whole mighty empire falls apart quickly into a set of autonomous quarrelling states and civs like normal.
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 26, 2018, 01:05:28 pm
If anything it'd be a lot like Genghis Khan, a adventurer with a inbuilt set of advantages of the player's ability takes on numerous beasts, monsters and foes and conquers a large empire before retiring it, leaving it to his children within the simulation, but soon without the adventurer's leadership the whole mighty empire falls apart quickly into a set of autonomous quarrelling states and civs like normal.
That'd be a neat take, and probably the most common cause of entity splits would be division between successors, crumbling in the absence of an effective successor, etc. The example I cited would be another such instance of that happening.
Post by: Real_bang on November 28, 2018, 04:17:42 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 28, 2018, 04:32:24 pm
Whats your plans after the villain update hit the mark? Will you take more time improving sieges or go straight into myth and magic. Cause iirc you said that you might hold off with sieges if villains take too much timeThere's a lot of bug fixing and issues with the stress and relationship systems to fix yet, so it won't be straight into Mythgen. Probably won't know for sure until that's all finished. But yeah, would be interesting to know current thoughts on how much more of the pre-mythgen candidates are likely to happen.
Post by: Urist Mcpiromano on November 28, 2018, 07:56:02 pm
Post by: scourge728 on November 28, 2018, 08:36:52 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 28, 2018, 09:57:18 pm
I try to follow development as close as possible, but think I've missed some major news. What is this Big Wait everyone keeps talking about? And when is supossed to happen?Latest comment is "not the beginning of 2019" as the current stuff (villains, stress fixes, other pre-mythgen updates if they happen including Better Sieges and Off-Site army raising/management) is due to take longer than expected.
Post by: Rose on November 29, 2018, 12:27:59 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 29, 2018, 02:35:00 am
With dwarfs stealing money, does that bring us at all closer to having an economy back?I don't think that's likely. A living world economy is a Big Wait all in itself. However...With people suffering from gambling problems now, does that mean you might just tackle the tavern games without having to wait for the economy to be reintroduced?
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 29, 2018, 02:41:04 am
I try to follow development as close as possible, but think I've missed some major news. What is this Big Wait everyone keeps talking about? And when is supossed to happen?The Big Wait is the period after the end of the current development arc (the villain additions ending development of significant new stuff, followed by bug fixing and balancing). During the Big Wait Toady will redesign a number of framework components (collecting a number of game save compatibility breaking changes in one go) and then build the framework for Myth & Magic (with some things using the framework, so there will be some myth and some magic, but definitely not all of it: just the beginning). There will be no DF releases during the Big Wait (unless there's an emergency release to fix some game breaking bug). At the end of the Big Wait a new DF release will be made, marking the beginning of the (first) Myth & Magic arc. This kind of long periods without and DF releases during which new functionality is developed is "normal" for DF, but what is unusual this time is that it's expected to take longer than usual (about 1-2 years) due to the volume of work to be performed. Something that's normal for a new arc is a first release that contains a lot of bugs and balancing issues, typically followed by a rapid sequence of game break correction releases followed by balancing/major issues fixing. When DF is back to sort of playable, development of new stuff (Myth and Magic contents, in this case) will take place, together with fixing of medium bugs and balancing.
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 29, 2018, 07:46:45 am
With dwarfs stealing money, does that bring us at all closer to having an economy back?
No because the money they are stealing does not actually exist except in World-Gen.
Post by: therahedwig on November 29, 2018, 10:30:10 am
Japa, I think the issue with the economy is more or less that entities aren't good at updating their available resources, so the kind of changes in those resources that are caused by trade(like a fort exporting a billion mugs to the mountain homes) aren't able to be processed by the entity(dwarven caravans and traders should now have hundreds upon hundreds of mugs available...).
Embezzlement might however be able to happen without interacting with that system. If a human civ has 5 million coins, and a human in that civ has a budget of 100, embezzles 30, then the human civ doesn't care, there's still 5 million coins in the civ. Similarly, if your bookkeeper or manager is corrupt, and your clothier is churning out socks, manages to make masterwork pair, then there's a good chance your bookkeeper is -mysteriously- able to aquire those despite all odds, and it would not have to interfere with the resources available to the fort. So the abuse of power is possible to be there without worrying about the economic side effects (Though, having economic side effects might make it a little bit more Fun to the player to have a corrupt bookkeeper).
This would however not really work over different entities(because, they can't really update their resources, right?), so maybe we won't see it in play at all beyond a generic notion of 'so-and-so did this in the past, and now someone can blackmail them'. Gambling might have a similar issue, in that it would very much need to happen over different entities(the fort government and the entities that the tavern visitors are part of).
Unless I am completely wrong about the blocking issue of economy and the problem has only been stacking of currency all along :p
EDIT: Oh man, can we nickname the next release the melodrama release? "Urist, why did you give that Goblin our artifact axe?" "I couldn't help it, he was going to reveal that I embezzled a masterwork plump helmet roast and had an affair with the Queen!"
EDIT2: I am going through all the FotF threads to check what else was up with the economy. One of the other major things beyond stockpiles and stacking is that civs aren't smart enough to demand anything. That is, they don't really understand what they consume. I'll make a separate thread with all the quotes, because 'wan economy???' seems to be one of the most common questions.
EDIT3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172681.0
Post by: Random_Dragon on November 29, 2018, 11:24:51 am
Post by: Death Dragon on November 29, 2018, 12:20:10 pm
I try to follow development as close as possible, but think I've missed some major news. What is this Big Wait everyone keeps talking about? And when is supossed to happen?We're currently in the medium wait for the big wait. :P
Post by: Real_bang on November 29, 2018, 12:54:06 pm
Also does that mean that our forts will have more barony titles like the one above?
Post by: Eric Blank on November 29, 2018, 03:45:33 pm
2) With business sabotage, is that something that can take place in fort mode by the time of this release as well? Will we have dwarves arranging unfortunate accidents for rivals? Could jealous blacksmiths try to ensure the magma forges ruin the creations/lives of the other smith or "accidentally" drop a masterwork under a drawbridge/into magma?
3) Could a greedy broker in my own fort start trying to hide my nice trade goods in his cabinets? If so, would a villainous conspirator that knew approach him and threaten blackmail? Say, could an adventurer try to use him to steal an artifact? If i found out about his secret stache of goods without a dwarf reporting him, how will i go about indicting him legally? Get the guard captain stationed in his room, or deconstruct his container, and hope they discover it? I can always throw him under a drawbridge, but thats doesnt sound like quite as much fun suddenly.
4) What all will pseudo-guildmasters be doing in fort mode? Its a noble position ive modded in in the past for the heck of it, but they never served a purpose anyway, and as we arent going so far as having proper guilds, i dont see them really doing anything nobles cant already do. Could they, for instance, meet with unhappy workers like the mayor/expedition leaders do?
5) in what way will temple profaning be linked to this new framework? I dont get it, will dwarves with villainous personalities decide they want to profane the temple to become vampires? Or will they be more likely to by accident because of their personality, and good folks less so?
5b) On the flipside of that, its always been the case that only a few deities ever have temples in the world, so the deities who have one are doing all the cursing. Will other deities get small shrines or otherwise a chance to curse people anytime soon?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 29, 2018, 04:13:11 pm
Are there any corrupt activities happening after worldgen? If it only happens during worldgen, does that mean you'll eventually run out of things to blackmail people with in the world?Worldgen doesn't stop, the world keeps going on in the background while you play. It's kind of the point.
Of course there are some things that don't seem to work after initial worldgen, like artifact making (besides in player forts) so if that's what you meant (will corrupt activities stop after initial worldgen?), then, yeah, I'd like to know that too.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 29, 2018, 05:06:52 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on November 29, 2018, 11:24:09 pm
Of course there are some things that don't seem to work after initial worldgen, like artifact making (besides in player forts) so if that's what you meant (will corrupt activities stop after initial worldgen?), then, yeah, I'd like to know that too.Yeah, with worldgen I meant "initial worldgen".
5) in what way will temple profaning be linked to this new framework? I dont get it, will dwarves with villainous personalities decide they want to profane the temple to become vampires? Or will they be more likely to by accident because of their personality, and good folks less so?I assume he meant the rivalry framework, so followers of one god might profane the temple of some other god they don't like?
Post by: George_Chickens on November 29, 2018, 11:29:14 pm
Post by: Fatace on November 29, 2018, 11:32:44 pm
[Adventure Mode related] With the next update, it seems like you will implement a lot more various types of quests other than "criminal" and "Bandit" quests. Do you have plans on revisiting on how players ask info on various quests? Seems a bit tedious when having to spam through various dialogs to get info on each set of beast, criminal, bandit, ect... location.. One world took me about 15 minutes to go through them all.. Could the idea of Notice boards or Bounty Boards be added in place of this? Such as bounty boards for beasts and bandits in certain builders or taverns, or notice board, wanted signs in the lord/lady castle area? So the player could just walk up to it and obtain the knowledge of the locals of multiple quests?
Post by: Mediterraneo on November 30, 2018, 03:10:23 am
Is there anything on the villain arc related to kidnapping, blackmail with captives or asking for ransom? Like asking money to someone rich, a job as guard to a captain of the guards, to start a war on your enemies to a general, king or diplomat, things like that?
Is there anything 'villainous' that can be plotted during a fortress mode game? As opposed to something you should 'just' be aware of and try to prevent?
Thanks!
Post by: therahedwig on November 30, 2018, 04:14:45 am
Post by: Inarius on November 30, 2018, 05:19:29 am
I think we could gain a lot of gaming value here, if NPC could *not* give information from things they don't know anything about - and don't even know anybody who could tell you, when we ask them about troubles (maybe just asking them about gossips could have them tell us about it)
Post by: therahedwig on November 30, 2018, 10:25:11 am
That reminds me...
Is there such a thing as false rumours? I know that NPCs can technically lie from previous devlogs, but I don't remember if they lied about rumours
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 30, 2018, 11:37:01 am
Or, at the very least ask them 'anything local?'. I can imagine in a world where for some bizare reason there's only one interesting thing and it's happening on the other side of the map, you'd want to be able to annoy the npcs for all the rumours they know.
That reminds me...
Is there such a thing as false rumours? I know that NPCs can technically lie from previous devlogs, but I don't remember if they lied about rumours
There are outdated rumors certainly, of which are not true 'anymore' unless the player purposefully spreads misinformation. We'll have to see whether villians can utilise this to act as bait for people of interest, going with promises of a forgotten artifact and instead finding a gang of assassins ambush you.
Post by: Fatace on November 30, 2018, 12:20:06 pm
Fatace, don't you think the issue with the troubles isn't also that a lot of them aren't 'local'? When I ask for troubles a lot of them are across the world(Which makes 'I don't know, and I don't know anybody who could tell you' pretty infuriating too), with the exception of asking for troubles on islands.
I wasn't referring to local problems compared to quests that take u across the map, I meant the info that all the locals (the townies, ect. in the area) have heard, such as going to the main big town, and finding out some of the info right away that everyone in the town, and nearby halmets have heard of.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 30, 2018, 12:35:15 pm
Fatace, don't you think the issue with the troubles isn't also that a lot of them aren't 'local'? When I ask for troubles a lot of them are across the world(Which makes 'I don't know, and I don't know anybody who could tell you' pretty infuriating too), with the exception of asking for troubles on islands.
I wasn't referring to local problems compared to quests that take u across the map, I meant the info that all the locals (the townies, ect. in the area) have heard, such as going to the main big town, and finding out some of the info right away that everyone in the town, and nearby halmets have heard of.
Toady explained this in his talk before last when explaining villian plots and networks, clues are added as a exposition device so that the player isn't always going to be stumped by a unknown network of villian figures with the convenient 'note left behind by employer to goon' in the middle of a bandit camp etc, i guess in practice working upon rumors for these quests it has to be very much the same if not a little run up bit of practice.
Youtube link to talk at the Roguelike Celebration (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-7TtPX5uhg).
Post by: therahedwig on November 30, 2018, 12:44:43 pm
So that's why I am thinking maybe the kind of rumours they tell you when you ask for specific troubles should (also?) be filtered a little? Like, maybe the kidnappings of 30 years ago are really not that relevant, nor is the army marching on my fort a few years ago.
And yes, there are several 'improve the questlog/quest handling' entries on the dev page. I am very much looking forward to them as the previous ones were pretty nice too :3
Post by: Urist McSadist on November 30, 2018, 01:42:18 pm
How exactly is magic going to behave in world gen? Will shooting fireballs, for instance maybe give you a combat advantage that get's countered by fire resistance or something?
Also are we gonna be able to order our dwarves to cast certain spells through a menu?
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 30, 2018, 03:53:22 pm
How exactly is magic going to behave in world gen? Will shooting fireballs, for instance maybe give you a combat advantage that get's countered by fire resistance or something?
Also are we gonna be able to order our dwarves to cast certain spells through a menu?
Im not sure Toady's landed upon anything concrete just yet and if you dont mind me saying these sound a lot like suggestions in relation to the menu, there hasn't been any insinuation that the player would have a hand in compelling a magic using dwarf (if applicable) to cast on command, except maybe move them into a dangerous situation like necromancers do currently whether they are your fortress dwarves or not.
Natural counters to fire exist, like dragon materials & nethercap, which make good fire resistant shields whether there will be more we'll see depending on how practical or metaphysical magic appears.
Post by: Real_bang on November 30, 2018, 04:30:17 pm
Hows your progress with religion?
Also i was wondering what was the hardest part to realise in villain arc so far. And have you had some annoying bugs that took much time to fix in villain arc?
Post by: Knight Otu on November 30, 2018, 05:13:29 pm
Next devlog will be about fotf so ill ask here.I imagine the answer will look a lot like October's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864339#msg7864339) - if there is any progress worth noting, it'll be in the devlog itself. And given that it's only been three days, coupled with the other month-end things that turn up (and corruption might not have been completely finished given Toady's wording), I'm doubtful Toady had much opportunity to work on religion changes.
Hows your progress with religion?
Post by: Rubik on November 30, 2018, 05:53:17 pm
1.Are we gonna get ethic conditions for dwarves that cheat on their partners? Seeing as it's something that's culturally adressed in one way or the other
2.Do you think there'll be time to add prisioners and kidnapping/ransomming missions befor the big wait?
3.The same for the medical revamping for adventure mode
Post by: bieux on November 30, 2018, 06:37:39 pm
1. What are going to be the physical, mental or otherwise fundamental characteristics for a creature to be ellegible as a villain? (or what characteristics will cull them from being able to?) Will kobold villains be a thing? or even ogres?
2. Likewise, what will a villain consider to add as a node for their plot? Can a werebeast get into their contacts? prehaps a tamed non-speaking creature?
Post by: GenericUser on November 30, 2018, 06:59:06 pm
Post by: Doorkeeper on November 30, 2018, 09:38:57 pm
With dwarves getting temptations, will there be affairs and illegitimate children in this arc? Or any unfaithfulness, say for that pretty gem setter instead of their spouse?
Affairs and infidelity are planned. They were mentioned previously in the devlogs during the development of worldgen romantic links. Children can be born outside marriage too. Actual legitimacy customs (i.e. child status/rights) however is not planned for this release; Toady explained how kids out of wedlock will work in the October FotF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864339#msg7864339).
Post by: Death Dragon on November 30, 2018, 10:22:52 pm
Is there such a thing as false rumours? I know that NPCs can technically lie from previous devlogs, but I don't remember if they lied about rumoursThe only thing people can lie about is their identity. Besides that, there's no false rumours.
Post by: Toady One on December 01, 2018, 01:25:39 am
Quote from: Bumber
Are strange moods going to be overhauled during the upcoming Myth and Magic arc?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7881449#msg7881449
Quote from: Jacubus
Will we be able to interact with trade companies in fortress mode or are they world gen only?
On similar note, you had also mentioned priests doing similar thing in a devlog, will they travel to player fortress temples?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7885009#msg7885009
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Just in case the answer's not apparent by the end of the month, I enjoyed the live twittering of your talk yesterday, but will there be a video/audio?
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7885273#msg7885273
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7886571#msg7886571
Quote from: Egan_BW
Would you ever consider adding non-ascii graphics to the game, to help communicate things that would be hard to illustrate using text alone? Thinking of things like a spherical world map, for example.
Mainly asking if you consider that to be an option or if you're attached to the classic ascii. Or if it would be too annoying to implement other graphics into the game.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7885860#msg7885860
Egan_BW (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7886107#msg7886107
I don't have anything to add to PatrikLundell, really, even with the follow-up question. We'd need a different example than a spherical world map, which isn't going to happen. That old visualizer for the underground didn't help at all, so I'm not the one to be doing it, anyway.
Quote from: Inarius
About Magic : do you already have a "list" of spells you would like to be in the game (i understand all of them wouldn't be in a game, considering the way magic & myth will work, but I suppose that "magical effects" will be drawn from some kind of list, somewhere ?), and if yes, how many of them have you, yet ?
For the test myth generator, we were working with a list of 234 more-or-less basic effects. How you define an "effect" determines a lot though -- in the myth gen system, the effect leading to fire bolt/spray/strike/ball would all be the same effect, for instance, with the targeting/magnitude etc. systems taking the load there (where in current DF, projectiles complicate this somewhat.) So it's not a list we're committing to until we see how it interacts with DF's actual specific details; mostly we just scraped various systems and our own heads for a list of effects we were (1) interested in, (2) thought we could possibly pull off, (3) were different from each other. I'm not sure if that answers your question.
Quote from: therahedwig
I was playing adventure mode a bit back, and went from a town to visit the nearby dwarves. The town had been recently reclaimed by a human civ, and the dwarves told me there was a criminal organisation in the town. I was confused because I hadn't seen anything like that, so I went back and into all the underground structures I could find. There, I found the criminal organisation, but they were all dead, properly buried with slabs that said how they'd died(a Roc visited about 70 years earlier, which turned the town into a ruin in the first place).
But my character couldn't tell people about what I'd just read. Even funnier, looking at the stories my character knew, it seems she already knew about the criminal organisation and that they'd died from that Roc. And telling the story didn't generate a rumour either. So I have several questions:
1. What exactly is causing this rift between stories and rumours?
2. Is that also why my character, who can read, and read that gravestone cannot gain the information that these people are already dead?
3. Do you want a bugreport for this, or is it just a case of missing features?
1. Historical events and rumors are almost completely different from each other. There are reasons for this, but they've been growing back together; there's just a lot of text and logic that needs to be written up for people to understand a general retelling of history.
2. Yes, 'incidents' are more closely linked to rumors, and carry that information currently, which is different from a historical death. Again, the sort of thing we'd like to link together, but there's work to be done.
3. It's a gray area I guess. A bug report serves as a good reminder, and I'd recommend it here, but generally of course I wouldn't want the bug reports to become a place for suggestions.
Quote
Quote from: Grand SageWith vampires beeing candidates for villanious plots, how will the next update affect vampire cults?Quote from: FantasticDorfI thought id follow up on the above question since the cult was brought up.
Will there be any rules on who can join particular night beast or enclosed villian network?
EI you must be willingly converted into a vampire to join a vampire cult's scheme or be recruited from many of the blood drinkers hiding away in civilisations with the associated secret handshakes that come with the job.
Cults would need to be considered, but I haven't thought about the specifics of the vampire case generally; this will literally be one of those "It's a good day for vampire villains!!!" kind of work flows. I believe my notes are something along the lines of "cults need to be considered," he he he.
None of the current villain networks work by application currently; the higher-ups loop people in. Some simple personality/relationship calcs etc. enter into it, on top of the overall condition e.g. "blackmailable due to embezzlement." I haven't considered the odder cases and it'll happen on the fly as above.
Quote from: KittyTac
Will there be procedurally-generated secret handshakes?
Ha ha, suggestions if that was a suggestion and not a joke response to somebody else (I don't remember!)
Quote from: squamous
Will the villain update change how hearthperson quests work? Like the "cause trouble" quest for bandits is one people still aren't quite sure how to solve, so will it be replaced by more complex villain shenanigans?
The current release is not necessarily going to alter them, but broken quests suck of course and should eventually be changed. Most of the lords aren't very ambitious right now, and such a quest would be a sign of them not actually being a 'villain' in the broad sense.
Quote from: FrankVill
Nowadays dwarfs only sleep or eat in order of their own needs. They don´t seem that day/night cycle have any influence on them. There is always a constant activity in every fortress.
1- In what arc do you plan to make that almost all dwarfs dream on the night and there was silence and quiet under the moon? and what previous requisits would the game needs to have by you could implement it?
2- How do you believe that it could affect at game rythm? I sometimes imagine the possible result and I think that any construction would be slower or something like this ( I am too accustomed to frenetic life style of dwarfs, ha ha)
3- Is there any future feature waiting for night dreams or this only would change the way of tell stories? (maybe vampyrs will become more interesting than now)
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7888466#msg7888466
Quote from: therahedwig
1. Friendships and similar links are made during worldgen and in fort mode. Will, if we expel a dwarf, this dwarf continue creating such links in the hillocks or wherever they are?
From the devlogs(08/18) and comments by a.o. rumrusher in the adventure mode forum, I understand that one of the reasons that adventure mode skirmishes tend to be a little lackluster is because most figures in adventure mode are pulled from the entity pops and are just answering questions from a flashcard, which is what leads to all the 'I know who my liege is, but I have no opinion on them and also can't tell you where they are' because they never met their liege being fresh histfigs, and so if they see the guy attacked it's like 'I have no real opinion on this person, but that fight sure looks scary' and then they run away. And all this linking stuff is to reduce that type of response (because it would make villains inciting trouble also pretty lackluster).
2. Is it planned to have the fresh histfigs make use of all these new positions and the like to guess at how they feel about an attack or a person? Like, will a fresh peasant, who follows the god of agriculture really religiously, recognize the priest of that religion and infer they have a link? Or a weaver recognize their guild representatives and try to help them when they're in trouble? Or is this only for preexisting histfigs for now?
3. Now that such links are more important in the world sim, will we be getting information about those links being made through the rumour system. Or, to be more blunt: Will the npcs now do proper gossiping instead of just scaring each other with stories about the dragon in the cave on the other end of the world? Because I've never come across for example, them telling each other so-and-so had a baby even though that is definitely something that happens in the world sim.
4. Do you think the upcoming system would already be capable of world war 1 diplomacy cascades where one thing goes wrong and several linked entities are suddenly at war with one another?
1. They'll be able to do whatever the post w.g. people can do when I get there after w.g. villains. Friendships, corruption, lovers, etc., are all on the menu, and we'll see what goes through.
Linkages don't help with ent pops, but even the existing historical figures were bad.
2. It's not completely a blank slate. There's already an opinion survey structure that sits inside of the ent pops which is why you do get some different reactions when asking about local rulers within the same pop (it's supposed to still work, anyway), and that's adopted by elevated hist figs. Entity linkages also inform them, and they have opinions about the groups to which they belong. Which is why they'll sometimes jump into fights (if I recollect.) But it's not very good. It's possible they might use their religious link; but that depends on how the entities work in the end, and that's not clear yet, as we aren't out of w.g. yet.
3. Historical events and relationships and rumors are all different things. We could have been doing broader gossip this whole time, based on the information we have, but we just haven't done it yet (unless you are the one to ask about, say, "family" or whatever.)
4. We're working toward it, anyway. But I'm not sure the villains are going to lead us to a strong enough notion of alliance for this release, for stuff to go quite so rapidly. I'm not sure the network of e.g. friendships will pull so hard.
Quote from: Rowanas
A quick question from the Tea suggestion thread -
Will dwarves always be the primary protagonists of the game? Will they cease to exist in no magic realms? Will the name of the game change if Dwarves are deposed in such a fashion? Bonus question - What can I do to make sure Dwarves are always in the limelight, because screw playin filthy humies.
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7890905#msg7890905
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7890976#msg7890976
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7890979#msg7890979
Just to add to those, the standard settings will, on the other hand, support the continued existence of dwarves if you want to play that way, and you should be able to create a "no traditional magic" world that still has dwarves.
Quote from: Beag
1. Will civilizations sometimes in times of war draft their citizens into the army?
2. If they do perform drafts might our player adventurers from those civilizations sometimes be drafted into the army?
3. Will the purposes of magic organizations include more things besides magic related stuff? For example in one world could a civilization have an army of war wizards?
4. If drafts are a thing that can be performed will our adventurer made hamlets eventually be able to draft citizens into our armies?
1. There aren't much in the way of standing armies. Most of the combatants are just regular people, both in worldgen and afterward.
2. We had a notion of this at some point, but the lack of control at times needs to be handled, as it relates to being in an army, especially the wait part of "hurry up and wait" and the boredom part of "boredom punctuated by moments of terror".
3. We're aiming for this kind of thing in certain worlds, yeah.
4. This is probably likely to happen before the adventurer can be drafted themselves.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Will modders be able to create new entities like companies or guilds or at least be able to modify the existing ones to customise the names of titles and stuff like that?
Will modders be able to restrict certain civilisations from being able to found organisation entities like those?
I'm sure this one has been asked before, but:
In the latest Threetoe story it says
"They often spent years in an unbroken trance, projecting their spirits into Osoai. In that place, where lost souls swam, time passed quickly, so that during what seemed like an hour spent there, a year passed on Earth."
Would these differing time scales between worlds actually be doable in DF? When you return to the normal world, you'd have to wait for the time progression to be calculated, which would surely take a long (real life) time. Did you think of any possible work around for this?
On time scales, Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7891725#msg7891725
That addresses the player perspective, the hard one; other people can just be made to go live in fast-time land. So, we'd like to try at some point, but it's not easy.
With new entities, they are in that procgen limbo with forgotten beasts right now. I don't have a text format yet since I don't understand the situation well enough (and thus use cludgy hard-coded stuff that can be weaved through special cases and other crap more quickly); this will change when we get to the status/etc. release to some extent, as that'll be when we really support sub-entities within a broader culture in a much more robust way. This last push has all been bandaid-level stuff for villains that just got a little out of hand (as usual.)
The foundation of guilds/companies etc. depends on the values of the civ. If you make your civ neutral or less on commerce, for example, they won't found companies (provided you haven't used the old merchant nobility flag, which also triggers them.)
Quote
Quote from: TownseyIn adventure mode, will creatures raised using necromancer abilities be treated as pets? Perhaps even making them mountable? Edit: I am talking about the next update which will introduce pets and parties to adventure mode, not about the long-term magic stuffQuote from: FantasticDorfQuestion building upon the one above: Will interactions with megabeasts ever be the target of villian networks. ei:such as the said necromancer building forces or hiring agents to slay a dragon so he can command and ride it personally into battle through ressurection being the cataclysmic end-goal.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7891841#msg7891841
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7891967#msg7891967
Hmm, it might take an extra line to make them "official" pets, rather than followers. I'll check.
'Ever' is a scary word, naturally, but that's the sort of thing ultimately we'd like people to think about. That sort of search for logical connections has to be taught to them most times (sometimes we get lucky), so it would take a directed effort, which I haven't done yet.
Quote from: WordsandChaos
For religions in the world, how expansive will the framework for that be? Will it draw a distinction between a dominant/origin/umbrella faith and religious denominations/subgroups/sects/cults? Or is the plan to treat everything as an entirely seperate group?
Is there any plans to change how groups currently handle identity change? They currently seem to reinvent themselves anytime someone in charge kicks the bucket and is succeded by another member, which inadvertantly stops them from gaining a recognisable presence or legacy in the world due to the rate of turnover.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7891994#msg7891994
WordsandChaos (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7892338#msg7892338
Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7892478#msg7892478
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7892732#msg7892732
The criminal group situation as described in op's second post sounds like a bug. Leadership changes aren't supposed to lead to new groups entirely. Nor are criminal groups supposed to be linked to individuals in that manner. There are other situations where new groups are made (I think), like abandoning fortresses, where it was difficult to manage it any other way at this point, even if keeping the same group would be ideal; another thing to look at in the future entity work.
We aren't able to do much with religious structure without the broader rewrite, and this is not meant to be a comprehensive rewrite at this time (as with the guilds etc.)
Quote from: Random_Dragon
What are your thoughts on the in-universe way the current placeholder for surnames is handled? My guess is that it's instead essentially a second given name, presumably chosen by whichever parent didn't decide their first name, or possibly a compound surname influenced by both parents in some way that doesn't yet reliably produce results logical to an outside observer, which would work very well for adapting into a proper compound surname via changing how the compound is generated.
I'd prefer to have a culture-bound procedural system for surnames (if they exist), generally. The main reason I haven't bothered is the language rewrite; I'd like to have more tools before sinking time into what would otherwise be a dead-on-arrival system, though clearly that doesn't always stop me.
Quote from: Real_bang
Whats your plans after the villain update hit the mark? Will you take more time improving sieges or go straight into myth and magic. Cause iirc you said that you might hold off with sieges if villains take too much time
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7893719#msg7893719
I am in a state of total ambivalence on sieges currently, ha ha ha. At this point, it doesn't make sense to commit to either way, since the feeling on the ground will be whatever it is when the villains are released.
Quote from: Urist Mcpiromano
What is this Big Wait everyone keeps talking about? And when is supossed to happen?
scourge728: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7893831#msg7893831
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7893856#msg7893856
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7893926#msg7893926
Don't have a better sense of when it is going to begin. The villain update will arrive when it does, and around that time we'll have to decide what's up, but it's harder to do it before then. Too much on the plate to realistically know now.
Quote
Quote from: JapaWith dwarfs stealing money, does that bring us at all closer to having an economy back?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWith people suffering from gambling problems now, does that mean you might just tackle the tavern games without having to wait for the economy to be reintroduced?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894020#msg7894020
"at all closer" is like "ever", he he he. We are in fact, closer, as the historical figures all have little 'accounts' they are working with, so whether they are opening a new merchant company warehouse or are running up an abstract gambling debt, the histories should be broadly consistent about what their state/level of distress is. This doesn't mean it makes sense as an economy, or that it even represents a currency.
Ha ha ha, if you wanna see a 2020 release we can tackle tavern games. I mean, don't respond to that, I know some people would want to see them anyway, including me, but I am showing restraint, as much as somebody that just added merchant companies and guilds for the villain release is showing restraint.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Are there any corrupt activities happening after worldgen? If it only happens during worldgen, does that mean you'll eventually run out of things to blackmail people with in the world?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894184#msg7894184
We live in hope that the post w.g. phase (which comes up after the world gen villain part is done) will carry over as much as we can. There are always limitations here, but in the same way we brought births over to post w.g., we're hoping non-villainous corrupt practices can also take the ride. It seems like there won't be any hard barriers, but they creep up sometimes.
Quote from: Real_bang
From your latest devlog you said that human became chief chef of the entire kingdom. Does that mean we can find him in some special place like royal kitchen actually doing his job or for now this role will be a filler for future law/economy arc?
Also does that mean that our forts will have more barony titles like the one above?
We don't have any special new rooms, and the jobs are mostly filler; as implied in the last dev log, the responsibilities of the position might lead to specific schemes related to those responsibilities. Dwarven baron positions aren't procedural, so their households would depend on raw additions currently. We haven't made final decisions there, but some additions would make sense.
Quote from: Eric Blank
1)You mentioned gambling problems. What are dwarves actually gambling on? Can they gamble on the outcomes of WG festivities/tournaments? Or is it just abstract board/card games for now?
2) With business sabotage, is that something that can take place in fort mode by the time of this release as well? Will we have dwarves arranging unfortunate accidents for rivals? Could jealous blacksmiths try to ensure the magma forges ruin the creations/lives of the other smith or "accidentally" drop a masterwork under a drawbridge/into magma?
3) Could a greedy broker in my own fort start trying to hide my nice trade goods in his cabinets? If so, would a villainous conspirator that knew approach him and threaten blackmail? Say, could an adventurer try to use him to steal an artifact? If i found out about his secret stache of goods without a dwarf reporting him, how will i go about indicting him legally? Get the guard captain stationed in his room, or deconstruct his container, and hope they discover it? I can always throw him under a drawbridge, but thats doesnt sound like quite as much fun suddenly.
4) What all will pseudo-guildmasters be doing in fort mode? Its a noble position ive modded in in the past for the heck of it, but they never served a purpose anyway, and as we arent going so far as having proper guilds, i dont see them really doing anything nobles cant already do. Could they, for instance, meet with unhappy workers like the mayor/expedition leaders do?
5) in what way will temple profaning be linked to this new framework? I dont get it, will dwarves with villainous personalities decide they want to profane the temple to become vampires? Or will they be more likely to by accident because of their personality, and good folks less so?
5b) On the flipside of that, its always been the case that only a few deities ever have temples in the world, so the deities who have one are doing all the cursing. Will other deities get small shrines or otherwise a chance to curse people anytime soon?
1) He he he, unspecified. Given what we have, it's most likely those festival competitions, yeah. I may add some flavor specifics yet, if I get a chance to revisit before release.
2) It's certainly on the table! All of these world gen corruptions are going to be in a candidate pool for fort mode shenanigans, and the ones that are easier to do will be the ones that go in on the first place, most likely. Part of the problem here is that there's no ownership for workshops unless the player specifically sets it up, so they might have to target e.g. masterpieces instead. If they aren't flat-out murdering people, yeah.
3) So, as I said before, I didn't want to spoil too much about villainous plots in the fort, as it would spoil some of my fun in torturing the players with things they don't know about. Things have been considered, and yeah, your adventurer would have equal access to opportunities against your (presumably retired) fort here, if the citizens haven't moved, as their corrupt transgressions would be stored in the same way as they are elsewhere in the world. Having your player learn about these things is an unspecified part of adv mode villainy which we have to tackle generally.
Now over on the justice side, yeah, the whole idea of the player finding evidence before the dwarves find the evidence is a principle concern. It would be a little annoying to force you through artificial hoops (like furniture deconstruction), but the alternative is the ability to just arrest people for crimes you invent and then hope you have the evidence for them and are correct (lest you get a rebellion.) That seems fine? It's less fiddly than moving the guard around and hoping they spot something on their own, and still requires the guard to go and arrest somebody. Perhaps ordering an actual search instead of an arrest would also work (instead of a stationing.) There will surely be new player powers over the justice system, and they will surely be abusable, and we will also try to have people react to abuses we can detect. That's the idea anyway.
4) That was the idea before; the old guildmasters could order work slowdowns, if I recollect, and otherwise be annoying if you didn't meet work quotas for them. I'm not sure at this point how much we'll do with them -- similar to the merchant companies and whatever new religious stuff, I need to be careful in not investing too much time in fort mode stuff that'll be obliterated by the real entity release (it's less of a cost in w.g./off-site and easier to salvage work there.)
5) PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894209#msg7894209
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894318#msg7894318
Yeah, when we get to villain actions, we'll likely have more. For pre-villains, I just meant the general corruption/crime impulse stuff we've got now, which adds some general personality/stress/temptation elements to the process. In dwarf mode, only tantruming dwarves, I think, would profane temples, while the worldgen people up until now didn't require any stress or anger or etc. at all, just a die roll.
5b) Yes, in fact, one of our very first steps with the religious stuff is having the possibility of smaller shrines for the additional deities, which should make life quite a bit more interesting. And not just in the big towns.
Quote from: George_Chickens
One of your talks that mentioned Shadow of Mordor got me wondering. Have there been any modern games which have inspired you to add certain things to Dwarf Fortress, or to modify a feature based on them?
The quest compasses from adv mode are newer than our core inspirations (and also becoming outmoded as people shift to other more descriptive models, which we've always been in favor of generally, but aren't always easy to pull off.) Climbing on monsters was in all the Harryhausen stuff and we got to e.g. wrestling through that and other non-game sources, without modern games, but references to Shadow of the Colossus I've made in the past are relevant there still to what we'd like to play around with. Should be lots more along those lines. I don't remember where our gears/axles came from; that could be general mechanical reading on wikipedia, just to get mills working, but maybe a game that was out? It's a stew of stuff going on sometimes.
The special attack opportunities in adv mode came from the Ring of Savings that pops up on Jewelry Television which was on in the background for some reason years ago, ha ha ha. Zach and I still call that indicator "the Ring of Savings."
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Quote from: Fatace[Adventure Mode related] With the next update, it seems like you will implement a lot more various types of quests other than "criminal" and "Bandit" quests. Do you have plans on revisiting on how players ask info on various quests? Seems a bit tedious when having to spam through various dialogs to get info on each set of beast, criminal, bandit, ect... location.. One world took me about 15 minutes to go through them all.. Could the idea of Notice boards or Bounty Boards be added in place of this? Such as bounty boards for beasts and bandits in certain builders or taverns, or notice board, wanted signs in the lord/lady castle area? So the player could just walk up to it and obtain the knowledge of the locals of multiple quests?Quote from: therahedwigIs there such a thing as false rumours? I know that NPCs can technically lie from previous devlogs, but I don't remember if they lied about rumours
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894376#msg7894376
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894396#msg7894396
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894473#msg7894473
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894501#msg7894501
Fatace (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894514#msg7894514
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894523#msg7894523
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894529#msg7894529
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894785#msg7894785
It's the case now that they only talk about things they know about (that includes the famous megabeasts), but sometimes they know a lot. I agree it needs work. "Better Quest Handling : Can ask about specific opportunities" on the dev candidate list is in the same limbo as sieges and adv mode medical. That is, much more likely to be done in the short term than other things, but we have to see what happens after the villain release generally. But it was meant to handle this kind of thing. I'm not sure what I think about notice boards specifically; I suppose in the context of "monster slayers" as a specific hero role, like we have, perhaps it isn't a wrong approach, but it needs some kind of world-appropriate backing.
There are no false rumors currently. It's not an easy problem in general, data-storage-wise, though certain avenues are available.
Quote from: Mediterraneo
Some months ago, I asked about prisoner management, and alternatives with intelligent captives.
Is there anything on the villain arc related to kidnapping, blackmail with captives or asking for ransom? Like asking money to someone rich, a job as guard to a captain of the guards, to start a war on your enemies to a general, king or diplomat, things like that?
Is there anything 'villainous' that can be plotted during a fortress mode game? As opposed to something you should 'just' be aware of and try to prevent?
Thanks!
Yeah, this is very likely, as we get back to the villains soon.
Your off-site squad directives will be able to range into villainous activity. I'm not 100% sure at this point how far the counter-intelligence is going to go, beyond simple investigation and punishment, but that starts to look like villainy once you get into it at all.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
How exactly is magic going to behave in world gen? Will shooting fireballs, for instance maybe give you a combat advantage that get's countered by fire resistance or something?
Also are we gonna be able to order our dwarves to cast certain spells through a menu?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894602#msg7894602
Fire immunity even figured into the current world gen calculations up to this point (in, say, dragon vs. imp contests), if I recollect, though that code has changed a lot and didn't have a lot of common uses.
But yeah, I don't have a lot of specific information here yet, as we're too far out. If magic is widely available, then dwarves would just use it naturally in combat, I expect. If there's reason for them to conserve X or Y, that would have to come up, and hopefully not be as annoying as combat/training ammo etc. has been over the years. On the other hand, for specific important rituals, yeah, we've given some consideration to having you set these up, etc., if that's part of the system that is generated.
Quote from: Real_bang
Next devlog will be about fotf so ill ask here.
Hows your progress with religion?
Also i was wondering what was the hardest part to realise in villain arc so far. And have you had some annoying bugs that took much time to fix in villain arc?
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894665#msg7894665
Yeah, I literally haven't started them yet. Same basic reason as last time, though obviously the particulars have changed. Month-change is always intense while also not often programming-related.
The hardest part I think with the villain arc has clearly been this whole having to jumpstart the networks part -- I don't feel like I often get caught flat-footed on like three months of work and have to fully stop what I'm doing and go do this kind of background. I go off on tangents, but this was worse and more structural. I think that partially had to do with villains themselves being a sudden pre-Big-Wait idea, to give the game some spice before we disappeared for a time, and it obviously needed more cooking, at the time. But it's good now. I think. We'll see when I try them again.
Quote from: Rubik
1.Are we gonna get ethic conditions for dwarves that cheat on their partners? Seeing as it's something that's culturally adressed in one way or the other
2.Do you think there'll be time to add prisioners and kidnapping/ransomming missions befor the big wait?
3.The same for the medical revamping for adventure mode
1. It feels like there's a whole entity framework that needs to be established there with all the *gamys and social mores and all that, which we're not jumping into yet.
2. We're almost assuredly going to get multiple forms of this in dwarf mode, yeah, for the next release. Haven't even started the dwarf side of villains yet.
3. Adv mode medical is in the same limbo as sieges (see above).
Quote from: bieux
1. What are going to be the physical, mental or otherwise fundamental characteristics for a creature to be ellegible as a villain? (or what characteristics will cull them from being able to?) Will kobold villains be a thing? or even ogres?
2. Likewise, what will a villain consider to add as a node for their plot? Can a werebeast get into their contacts? prehaps a tamed non-speaking creature?
1. Aside from the position held (which might require it), valuing cunning puts them on the potential list, and a few personality facets I think. Whether they are good at it or not is a completely different matter; the intrigue skill requires several mental attributes. I don't recall if the gift of speech is required, but being intelligent (as a creature raw tag, not an attribute) certainly is.
2. Useful position holders and those linked to useful position holders are the primary targets, as it concerns general network building. Tools/assets for certain plots are a broader group (criminals, mercenaries, etc.), but it doesn't yet extend into the wilds.
Quote from: GenericUser
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894715#msg7894715
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894777#msg7894777
Post by: KittyTac on December 01, 2018, 01:50:24 am
Post by: Toady One on December 01, 2018, 02:40:54 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 01, 2018, 03:00:50 am
Always amusing to ponder such things.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 01, 2018, 03:12:23 am
Ha. Kind of expected Games weren't coming back on a whim. Thought it best to check though. :)
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 01, 2018, 07:16:46 am
Im kicking myself now because i had a question (to be answered in a months time :P ) that only entered my head to ask this morning rather than last night after sleeping on it.
Will fortress dwarves with the potential for evil scheming (please excuse the explicitly specific examples but necromancer/vampire being atypical villians) use retired or abandoned fortresses as a base, or is this immunized in world generation?
These are the kinds of things players i reckon could foster on site (maybe accidently) in terms of world building, as to note its quite similar to kruggsmash's illustrated youtube series. (any wondering where the inspiration for the question came there then ) Though of course the weaponization of 100's of goblin corpses from uncleaned up seiges would mean they have plenty of ammunition and maybe be able to skip to the end of their master plan of collection in the necromancer's case.
Post by: Rubik on December 01, 2018, 07:27:38 am
I think I'm being completely honest when I say that I wouldn't have a problem waiting for 2020 if we actually got procgen tavern games. And I think I'm not the only one that'd love that
All mechanics that are intended to be implemented will take a certain ammount of time to do so, why not add tangible ways for dwarves to gain crippling debt now that the possibility of having gambling related crippling debt is being added?
Post by: therahedwig on December 01, 2018, 07:34:58 am
Thanks for the answers Toady.
Im kicking myself now because i had a question (to be answered in a months time :P ) that only entered my head to ask this morning rather than last night after sleeping on it.
Will fortress dwarves with the potential for evil scheming (please excuse the explicitly specific examples but necromancer/vampire being atypical villians) use retired or abandoned fortresses as a base, or is this immunized in world generation?
These are the kinds of things players i reckon could foster on site (maybe accidently) in terms of world building, as to note its quite similar to kruggsmash's illustrated youtube series. (any wondering where the inspiration for the question came there then ) Though of course the weaponization of 100's of goblin corpses from uncleaned up seiges would mean they have plenty of ammunition and maybe be able to skip to the end of their master plan of collection in the necromancer's case.
The devlist does say this is the plan(it's under 'Treasure Hunter'), but I guess we don't know if it is going to come in sooner or later.
Like, some of the law/property framework stuff is going to be spent on not just letting civs generate starting scenarios but also have them have an understanding about why they wanted this hamlet here(so it can produce food), or why they wanted a temple there(because divine law), so there's a good chance more interesting non-town sites will get tackled then instead of now.
Post by: Inarius on December 01, 2018, 12:08:43 pm
Everybody would like to have it, but well...it means 3-6 months lost for something else more "useful" for the game.
But, as a "gaming value" this would be very good. I'm quite sure i feel like at least 75% of players here (Toady included!)
Post by: Death Dragon on December 01, 2018, 12:58:03 pm
Thanks for the Fof as always toadyI'm okay with this, but only under the condition that these tavern games provide a moddable interface that would let us program whole games inside Dwarf Fortress. :P
I think I'm being completely honest when I say that I wouldn't have a problem waiting for 2020 if we actually got procgen tavern games. And I think I'm not the only one that'd love that
Post by: ZM5 on December 01, 2018, 01:27:24 pm
Definitely hyped for the villains update from the devlogs you've been posting along with the talk you did at the Roguelike celebration.
Post by: Real_bang on December 01, 2018, 01:27:51 pm
Also i dont think that people wouldnt mind waiting a bit longer before the big wait to get the improved sieges into the game cause the idea of seing army on army battles is just too cool to wait for it to appear after the big wait. It will still be your decision to go for them or not, but if you still will be in a state of ambivalence then i suggest making a vote in forums
Post by: Knight Otu on December 01, 2018, 02:03:23 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 01, 2018, 03:11:38 pm
Truth be told, some additions for various modding areas would actually be very welcome for the 2 year wait :P
Definitely hyped for the villains update from the devlogs you've been posting along with the talk you did at the Roguelike celebration.
Indeed, I'm still hoping the update will give me some good inspiration.
Post by: therahedwig on December 01, 2018, 03:45:48 pm
I did however forget to say thank you for the answers. -_-
Thank you for the answers!
Post by: Grand Sage on December 01, 2018, 07:20:57 pm
On a side note, I'm looking forward to run a ransoming scheme out of an old minotaur maze ;)
Post by: Bumber on December 04, 2018, 02:52:36 am
I don't have anything to add to PatrikLundell, really, even with the follow-up question. We'd need a different example than a spherical world map, which isn't going to happen. That old visualizer for the underground didn't help at all, so I'm not the one to be doing it, anyway.
Edit: Thanks Knight Otu and DG.
Post by: Knight Otu on December 04, 2018, 06:01:36 am
Probably the built-in visualizer (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/40d:Visualize) from the 40d days. As I recall, it was rather bare-bones.I don't have anything to add to PatrikLundell, really, even with the follow-up question. We'd need a different example than a spherical world map, which isn't going to happen. That old visualizer for the underground didn't help at all, so I'm not the one to be doing it, anyway.
Which visualizer are you referring to?
Post by: DG on December 04, 2018, 06:05:05 am
(http://i66.tinypic.com/m92d6h.png)
Post by: Criperum on December 04, 2018, 09:10:39 am
Post by: squamous on December 05, 2018, 03:08:24 am
1. How will we see NPCs reacting to player plots? Say that my character decides to make a tavern their base of operations, and uses their companions to run various schemes targeting the ruler of that same city. If I get caught somehow, will people be sent to look for and possibly kill me? Could I be minding my own business in said tavern when a squad of goons burst in looking to take me out?
2. Will Night Trolls be able to partake in villain plots?
3. Say that I decide to start assassinating high-ranking authorities of a certain religion. Will this somehow effect the game world and cause other groups to show up and fill the gap?
4. If the pre-Big Wait adventure mode medical improvements make it in, what might they look like? Could there be a hospital site where you can lay on a bed and expect treatment from nearby doctors, for example?
5. Will we be able to conquer abandoned sites any time soon? Maybe it results in some sort of bugginess but I thought it was odd that you couldn't occupy sites with nobody in them.
Post by: LordBaal on December 06, 2018, 01:01:59 pm
Post by: Toady One on December 06, 2018, 01:33:41 pm
Post by: Grand Sage on December 06, 2018, 01:52:37 pm
Post by: LordBaal on December 06, 2018, 02:57:52 pm
Post by: Real_bang on December 06, 2018, 04:35:20 pm
Post by: thvaz on December 06, 2018, 08:55:03 pm
Post by: DG on December 07, 2018, 03:42:51 am
Post by: Strik3r on December 07, 2018, 07:27:08 am
1. Modded instruments can have a custom description, will it be possible for all items in the future?
2. In regards to Mythgen and items: Completely random worlds probably will have some bizarrely named equipment. How will it be communicated to the player that "zbfkl"s or whatever random jumbles of letters are infact, swords? This also extends to other things: As far as i know there isn't any indication in-game that a piece of armor is shaped, for example.
3. As part of mythgen, will generated sentient creatures in high-randomness worlds wear( and will it be possible to mod) clothing and armor worn on bodyparts other than what's possible right now, where it makes sense? For example: Tail armor, Wing decorations, even actual clothing worn on the ears if the creature's ears are big enough?
4. Cursed equipment( of the unremovable variety) is a fantasy staple, will MagicGen produce stuff like this? if so, can we also expect mundane stuff that can't be easily unequipped due to whatever reason?
5. Who will villians target with their plots and schemes? Will their personality affect what they do? For example, may some villians attempt to do shady things for the benefit of their civ?
Post by: Death Dragon on December 07, 2018, 10:04:44 pm
1. Modded instruments can have a custom description, will it be possible for all items in the futureAre you sure this isn't the case already? The wiki seems not very clear on that.
The problem about "in the future" questions is that the answer will be "Probably yes.". Toady is pretty planned out, so I assume there won't be any reworks or modding expansions until after the magic update
Post by: Orangefriedegg on December 07, 2018, 10:36:44 pm
Along with other things
2. like smelling for creatures/things &
3. possibly to assist in plant gathering
and hunting(in ways other than just attacking such as:
4.Retrieving the kill
5.finding prey without attacking)
or for activities like
6.scaring birds(filthy thieving Keas) away
Post by: Real_bang on December 08, 2018, 03:40:52 am
Does that mean new curses/blessings? :O
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 08, 2018, 04:35:11 am
Oh hey, my first FotF-thread post, because i've got a few questions about modding and items built up:Are you sure this isn't the case already? The wiki seems not very clear on that.
1. Modded instruments can have a custom description, will it be possible for all items in the future?
2. In regards to Mythgen and items: Completely random worlds probably will have some bizarrely named equipment. How will it be communicated to the player that "zbfkl"s or whatever random jumbles of letters are infact, swords? This also extends to other things: As far as i know there isn't any indication in-game that a piece of armor is shaped, for example.
The problem about "in the future" questions is that the answer will be "Probably yes.". Toady is pretty planned out, so I assume there won't be any reworks or modding expansions until after the magic updatein 5 years.
I can't remember the last reply's content to this, but any suggestions in the correct subforum are helpful to the matter as currently its a continous problem so a well founded issue when additional effects are tied onto bizarre or poorly explained items by name, like a wand for instance for your question example.
I would personally wish the current music naming system was rescinded to a d_infig toggle (and some other things but that's my opinion) as it hasn't had any significant improvement input to clarifying the issue and modded staticname instruments didn't make it nessecary in the first place (even if a lack of variety and having to spend more time defining on entity.txt per civ like any other piece of furniture or tool if you wanted to give dwarves big organ pipes, elves little dainty string instruments and goblins some big leather drums and bone horns)
1. Will dogs ever be able to be used for herding or have any interactions involving herding?
Along with other things
2. like smelling for creatures/things &
3. possibly to assist in plant gathering
and hunting(in ways other than just attacking such as:
4.Retrieving the kill
5.finding prey without attacking)
or for activities like
6.scaring birds(filthy thieving Keas) away
Whether dogs recieve AI improvements is up in the air as nothing is really dedicated or thought about it right now unless Toady decides to do something between relevant updates, though you can feel free to share these in a suggestion thread which would be the better relevant idea since he reads atleast the outlying opening post of every one to mark down in notes for when the time is right.
Dogs are already helpful creatures in fortress mode, and for the next release you could have a pet dog as a adventurer too from the loadout to help you on your quest. Swapping out tags from other creatures where appropriate can expand what they can do currently though, like vermin hunting.
"Incidentally, Ashi's only involvement with Bunnygears was unleashing a werezebra on it, the current price of having a temple to profane. We'll improve this at a later date, he he he."
Does that mean new curses/blessings? :O
I doubt Toady would want to spoil the suprise of such a thing if it were true. ;)
Interesting new devlog, i have two questions.
I haven't seen a megabeast ruler for a while in first or thirdhand accounts of game experience, but with things considered for the villian arc and the nessecary plotting of a demon or possibly cyclops (with intelligence and power tokens accounted) will living in world religious icons of a cult have any importance to this new system, such as cyclops in power* building temples to themselves to expand influence or (followers/leaders/icons) somehow founding a mutual or one sided relationship with other related beings in spheres
* (after plotting some intricate steps to the throne like extortion and kidnap to be thwarted by adventurers or just plain duffing up and routing a town before settling their own monsterous government for desperate people and worshippers to migrate to)
Question no #2, i can't help but notice the parallel's to a Kruggsmash video (https://youtu.be/JidDYqZi9J4?t=618) in which he went over his mutual suprise how owl people migrated from the wild and joined one of his in world AI civilizations, with other factors like diety representation and relevant held beliefs* joining a civ that valued it and had a owlman faced god. Will factors like this reflect the outcome of how animal people are dispersed more actively?
* (owls often being a subjective representation of knowledge, though there are some other cultural variations, like saying pigs or hogs are attached to greed and excess, jackals or vultures to death and decay if you wanted a animal-headed egyptian like pantheon.)
It seems a bit of a bandying into the Law & Property arc if you ask me, the same way we took a fancy to the hilllock arc early in a strange tangental way, though adding token spheres onto particular animal people/animals is painless to achieve for the relevant effect of generating dieties that look like a particular form like mentioned in the above citation.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2018, 06:21:50 am
Post by: Inarius on December 08, 2018, 07:36:04 am
Can people "enlarge" an already existing religious infrastructure if there are more people believing in this particular god ?
And are there several "levels" of temples, like churches vs cathedrals ?
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 08, 2018, 08:50:13 am
Two questions
Can people "enlarge" an already existing religious infrastructure if there are more people believing in this particular god ?##
And are there several "levels" of temples, like churches vs cathedrals ?
You can infer from the development log that people presently in power especially when smaller establishents all join together will have a stake. etc
Quote
This happened because the ruler of Bunnygears for the last 47 years has been Baroness Erab, an ardent worshipper of Ashi Mirthumber, the aforementioned god.
Bunnygears also features many small religious structures specifically related to the Fellowship of Sheens, an Ashi-focused religion that coalesced about halfway through the fifty year period we are considering.
Toady will have to answer on the limitations/challlenges of designing new sites to properly fit into towns if such a thing were to be, so i think this is unlikely especially with the added problem of having to demolish a enormous cathedral simply because the religion became extinct suddenly with the death of its followers/idol or switched to a more popular god thanks to new site government forcing or convincing them to.
Quick question: How do majority faiths in the rework retaliate to "heresy" and opposing sphere beliefs in town?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 08, 2018, 11:57:11 am
Does the religion rewrite just apply to proper pantheons, or to any religious figure? Would elven immigrants in a human town start erecting little shrines to the nature spirit of their woods back home?
Post by: Beag on December 09, 2018, 03:28:54 pm
2. I remember a while back you were going to release an update that allowed us to have multiple party members and pets at the start of our adventures. Is that update going to be combined with the villain update? I ask this because you haven't released it or talked about it recently.
3. Seeing as religious groups are becoming bigger players in the villain update will our player adventurers be able to join some of these religious groups similar to how we can become hearth people for rulers? And if so will we be able to receive special religious quests from them similar to how hearth people get military quests? And if so would our player adventurer gain fame within that religious group and or getting special worldly or divine rewards?
4. What sort of plots do you think religious groups will undertake? Also would the sphere of the deity the group worships affect what kind of plots they try to pull off?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 09, 2018, 03:59:11 pm
Post by: Buttery_Mess on December 09, 2018, 04:30:13 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 09, 2018, 05:40:52 pm
Quote
2. I remember a while back you were going to release an update that allowed us to have multiple party members and pets at the start of our adventures. Is that update going to be combined with the villain update? I ask this because you haven't released it or talked about it recently.Last time it was mentioned it was said as to have been completed for the upcoming release (back when it was "upcoming"). That was starting parties, giving orders, starting pets, riding pets, starting equipment. What wasn't mentioned specifically (as I recall) was work on tactical party combat.
So, Did you finish the tactical party combat system for Adventurer?
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 09, 2018, 05:44:04 pm
1. You mentioned in one of your recent dev logs that soon gods will be able to do more things for mortals than just give them vampirism, were beast ism and secrets of life in death in the new villain update that will occur before the myth and magic wait. Would our player adventurers be able to receive theses new blessings or curses from the gods? And if so how would we go about receiving these new boons or banes from the gods?
I thought the "increasing influence of deities" thing was only vaguely implied at the end of the latest devlog. Did Toady state it directly anywhere?
No; details if any up to release still pending but he may just keep us in the dark so there's more to find later.
2. I remember a while back you were going to release an update that allowed us to have multiple party members and pets at the start of our adventures. Is that update going to be combined with the villain update? I ask this because you haven't released it or talked about it recently.
This is still part of the current update, we can reasonably assume the work he wanted to do on it is done or they will be going back and polishing up later. If you want to direct any questions that haven't been said already at that, go ahead.
3. Seeing as religious groups are becoming bigger players in the villain update will our player adventurers be able to join some of these religious groups similar to how we can become hearth people for rulers? And if so will we be able to receive special religious quests from them similar to how hearth people get military quests? And if so would our player adventurer gain fame within that religious group and or getting special worldly or divine rewards?
This is three questions (/pseudo suggestions) at once almost, so to answer broadly because im sure Toady might pick up to answer atleast one point. It all hinges on in my opinion whether sharing a common hearth with a organisation is really quite the same and gameplay engaging in terms of content to do compared to just asking for quests from significant people anyway abstract from outside it with some maybe specialised issues.
On the topic of rewards, I have no idea because it seems like Toady is a bit more preoccupied with making the shared spaces, mechanics and places work more than singular people who aren't villians right now. I can't see how being any more or less famous with a particular group in a town can really benefit you more than overall general worldy fame but it'd be a nice accented touch to have somewhere to rest rent free due to their gratitude away from your self built abode.
4. What sort of plots do you think religious groups will undertake? Also would the sphere of the deity the group worships affect what kind of plots they try to pull off?
The death & necromancer religion connection is pretty much synonomous in terms of villians, i dont think Toady will have particular non-general religious organisation plots without the nessecary acting supernatural masterminds/agents to carry it out in the Magic arc, such as sealed away or awaiting ressurection gods but Toady can really answer that better.
Post by: therahedwig on December 09, 2018, 06:15:21 pm
I thought the "increasing influence of deities" thing was only vaguely implied at the end of the latest devlog. Did Toady state it directly anywhere?I think people are being excited. :) 'later date' has usually meant 'I am going planning to change this, but not right now, probably in a later development cycle'.
So what you guys think the individual religious interactions will be? Marriage, due to that traditionally affecting property won't be tackled in more detail till the law/customs rework. So that leaves... becoming part of the religion? Like baptism? Or rituals associated with becoming a priest? (There's no point in limegreening this, we'll proly see next week what they've cooked up, but speculation is fun :3 )
Post by: Beag on December 09, 2018, 06:45:32 pm
I'll try to think up better questions later this month.1. You mentioned in one of your recent dev logs that soon gods will be able to do more things for mortals than just give them vampirism, were beast ism and secrets of life in death in the new villain update that will occur before the myth and magic wait. Would our player adventurers be able to receive theses new blessings or curses from the gods? And if so how would we go about receiving these new boons or banes from the gods?
I thought the "increasing influence of deities" thing was only vaguely implied at the end of the latest devlog. Did Toady state it directly anywhere?
No; details if any up to release still pending but he may just keep us in the dark so there's more to find later.2. I remember a while back you were going to release an update that allowed us to have multiple party members and pets at the start of our adventures. Is that update going to be combined with the villain update? I ask this because you haven't released it or talked about it recently.
This is still part of the current update, we can reasonably assume the work he wanted to do on it is done or they will be going back and polishing up later. If you want to direct any questions that haven't been said already at that, go ahead.3. Seeing as religious groups are becoming bigger players in the villain update will our player adventurers be able to join some of these religious groups similar to how we can become hearth people for rulers? And if so will we be able to receive special religious quests from them similar to how hearth people get military quests? And if so would our player adventurer gain fame within that religious group and or getting special worldly or divine rewards?
This is three questions (/pseudo suggestions) at once almost, so to answer broadly because im sure Toady might pick up to answer atleast one point. It all hinges on in my opinion whether sharing a common hearth with a organisation is really quite the same and gameplay engaging in terms of content to do compared to just asking for quests from significant people anyway abstract from outside it with some maybe specialised issues.
On the topic of rewards, I have no idea because it seems like Toady is a bit more preoccupied with making the shared spaces, mechanics and places work more than singular people who aren't villians right now. I can't see how being any more or less famous with a particular group in a town can really benefit you more than overall general worldy fame but it'd be a nice accented touch to have somewhere to rest rent free due to their gratitude away from your self built abode.4. What sort of plots do you think religious groups will undertake? Also would the sphere of the deity the group worships affect what kind of plots they try to pull off?
The death & necromancer religion connection is pretty much synonomous in terms of villians, i dont think Toady will have particular non-general religious organisation plots without the nessecary acting supernatural masterminds/agents to carry it out in the Magic arc, such as sealed away or awaiting ressurection gods but Toady can really answer that better.
Post by: Death Dragon on December 10, 2018, 03:03:19 am
Happy new year! ;D
Hope Zach is doing alright.
2. I remember a while back you were going to release an update that allowed us to have multiple party members and pets at the start of our adventures. Is that update going to be combined with the villain update? I ask this because you haven't released it or talked about it recently.I kinda wish he had released the adventure mode party/ mount update as its own little thing beforehand. It at least sounded like it was almost done, but because of all the work on villains, we had to wait 6 months for it to be released.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 10, 2018, 03:46:27 am
I just realised the next FotF post will actually be next year already.He didn't know that at the time...
Happy new year! ;D
Hope Zach is doing alright.2. I remember a while back you were going to release an update that allowed us to have multiple party members and pets at the start of our adventures. Is that update going to be combined with the villain update? I ask this because you haven't released it or talked about it recently.I kinda wish he had released the adventure mode party/ mount update as its own little thing beforehand. It at least sounded like it was almost done, but because of all the work on villains, we had to wait 6 months for it to be released.
Oh, and fotf often hits on the last day of the year, so there's hope for one more 2018 entry! Unless Toady spends Christmas/New year with family or something...
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 10, 2018, 01:23:02 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 10, 2018, 03:22:22 pm
You could say Toady's in a strange mood and we're watching him grab the reagents for it in real time. XP
This is "cabnul ïteb udos" a artifact DF update release made out of geo-politics DF forum poster bone.
Engraved in DF poster bone is a image of a Toad man, a Guineapig man, a Cat, a bag and a computer, the Toad man is wielding the computer, the Toad man is labouring, the cat is playing in the bag, the guineapig man is resting.
Post by: Real_bang on December 10, 2018, 05:19:27 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 10, 2018, 05:28:03 pm
With religion being updated should we expect inquisitions in the next release? Also would we see religion mixing so some humans would believe in dwarven gods or other things like that (if its not in the game already)?The latest dev log had an example of a site with both dwarven and human gods, and with both races having members worshiping the "other" god. Apart from that, gods are tied more closely to civs than to races, so dwarves in a human civ are likely to have human gods in addition to the human civ ethics.
Post by: Death Dragon on December 11, 2018, 03:03:28 am
With religion being updated should we expect inquisitions in the next release? ...I have to assume inquisitions would have to wait until the law/status update which, if I remember right, is planned after the magic update.
I think at most we can hope for people profaning temples and shrines of religions that they don't like. Not sure if people can dislike (and sabotage) other religions because they see them as "rivals" to their own religion in the currently developed update, but it could be using the same framework that companies use when they sabotage rival companies, so maybe. Can you maybe confirm, Toad?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 11, 2018, 03:39:06 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 11, 2018, 03:54:00 am
With religion being updated should we expect inquisitions in the next release? ...I have to assume inquisitions would have to wait until the law/status update which, if I remember right, is planned after the magic update.
I think at most we can hope for people profaning temples and shrines of religions that they don't like. Not sure if people can dislike (and sabotage) other religions because they see them as "rivals" to their own religion in the currently developed update, but it could be using the same framework that companies use when they sabotage rival companies, so maybe. Can you maybe confirm, Toad?
Abstractly that question is too wide ended in the way you presented it to answer quickly, but civilizations of opposite core spheres already pick that as a casus belli since followers of fire spheres will go to war with followers of water spheres but this is hardly represented in the game without actually modifying everything to fall into place.
I asked something similar earlier in the thread in regards to how civilizations cope or 'not cope' with having rival sphere religions settling across the road in the same city, nervously eyeballing each other or if someone in charge takes action. Inquisitions i have too little information availible to think about other than vampire purges at this current time.
Will religion have any standing to the static or variable hereditary noble positions for a requirement to holding a post/consideration of nomination?*
*- Though the latter is a slightly more fluid majority thing it would seem from our current level of information in towns, pantheons are not so clear cut as saying 'your ruler needs [RELIGION:CHRISTIANITY]' to be egible to rule as much as sponsoring a particular god higher than others.
Yeah, unless inquisitions are somehow needed to add extra links for villains to make their networks (which isn't inconceivable, I guess with them roaming around looking for ducks to burn) there's no real need for all the extra mechanics that would need, even if it's only going on in worldgen.
Well as long as its politically/religiously just and not just the Frollo esque machinations of someone seeking revenge or a twisted sense of divine duty. Like said in the above paragraphs, there's definitely vampire purges in worldgen as a precedent for problems when things get out of control on a local level causing mass unrest and social problems.
Post by: Real_bang on December 11, 2018, 07:53:15 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 11, 2018, 09:31:49 am
If multi-tiled creatures are a thing to come someday, will we see multi-tile cage traps/other means of capturing them
Toady's address this as being a facet of the moving fortress parts arc, where the actual mutli creature's would likely lie but also mechanically lots of other things would be explored in greater detail as to their states and movements. Here's what was said in the development goals (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
Though a lot more on the matter exists in audio and transcribed DF talks.
Quote from: from development log
Adventurer Role: Treasure Hunter//
- Traps - Whatever comes out of mechanics (below) should occur in the sites you explore to the extent that the traps can be detected and surpassed
Improved Mechanics
- Stone traps should require the stone be placed above the tile that is targeted
- Better traps
- Stones should be able to roll (perhaps if they are started from or land on a ramp tile)
- Weapon traps should be multi-tile and require a spring or other potential energy source -- automatic resetting should require some explicit establishment of a feasible mechanism
- Large pipe sections -- walk on them or crawl inside them, allow passage for fluids
- Moving fortress sections (lifts, crushing traps, etc.)
- Waterproof axles through some mechanism
- Rock grinders? Fans? We'll do some other machines around this time -- whichever feasible ones are the most entertaining for dwarves and treasure hunters
Post by: Real_bang on December 11, 2018, 10:52:40 am
Oh i see. Cant wait to see this in action (in a couple of years ofc he he).If multi-tiled creatures are a thing to come someday, will we see multi-tile cage traps/other means of capturing them
Toady's address this as being a facet of the moving fortress parts arc, where the actual mutli creature's would likely lie but also mechanically lots of other things would be explored in greater detail as to their states and movements. Here's what was said in the development goals (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
Though a lot more on the matter exists in audio and transcribed DF talks.Quote from: from development logAdventurer Role: Treasure Hunter//
- Traps - Whatever comes out of mechanics (below) should occur in the sites you explore to the extent that the traps can be detected and surpassed
Improved Mechanics
- Stone traps should require the stone be placed above the tile that is targeted
- Better traps
- Stones should be able to roll (perhaps if they are started from or land on a ramp tile)
- Weapon traps should be multi-tile and require a spring or other potential energy source -- automatic resetting should require some explicit establishment of a feasible mechanism
- Large pipe sections -- walk on them or crawl inside them, allow passage for fluids
- Moving fortress sections (lifts, crushing traps, etc.)
- Waterproof axles through some mechanism
- Rock grinders? Fans? We'll do some other machines around this time -- whichever feasible ones are the most entertaining for dwarves and treasure hunters
Post by: therahedwig on December 13, 2018, 05:33:44 pm
Is taking walks an official Elven pastime or something? Or is it just a quirk of forest retreats having the residences in the air?
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 14, 2018, 04:31:36 am
* Seems like a nice pull for a temple tourist trap, orchestrating your fortress as the spawning ground for a home-made prophet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172798.msg7900435#msg7900435).
It seems that [POSITION:RELIGION] may be tenable for the future in playable civilisations without incurring a crash if not actually carrying gameplay i hope with the new changes too, despite the weird barely used place its in right now.
Though just to add as feedback for the devlog in general your issue around sphere competition could be alleivated by evil sphere alignment modifier's with a little bit of religious code but this is not particularly a suggestion as much as just anecdotal to myself running w.g dark fortress goblins with negative sphere pantheons without much trouble which even if demons/dark fort leaders get some form of special religion to play Pyongyang cult of personality for the future or better tying by becoming a assigned forceful self-prophet, should be resistant enough to the outside world's good spheres.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 14, 2018, 04:42:59 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 14, 2018, 05:02:18 am
Will it be possible for us to "defend" goblin civs from religion a little by modding in a position holder with Religion as a workaround? Or is it not that simple?
The 'monarch' // master could have tags to this effect, but im sure if there's no new tags handling all of it that modders can probably jerry-rig a nice compromise. In my attached suggestion hyperlink in my post above, i just touched upon the point that if fortress grown prophets were going to be running around converting people on your orders with C screen missions, you'll probably want to push war & fortresses into goblins for their pallette of beliefs for the knock on effect of giving goblin outcasts and prisoners more incentive to join your side with religious acceptance.
That is if another w.g religion hasn't got there first.
Post by: Inarius on December 14, 2018, 08:32:49 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 14, 2018, 08:48:45 am
Will religion deeply affect politics/psychology ? I think of religious wars or fights or good/bad relationships based on religious differencesReligious differences are already a cause of conflict.
Well, in as much as civs can use their neighbour's "godlessness" as a reason to go to war.
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on December 14, 2018, 09:27:50 am
A while back now, Ultimate Ratio Regum developer Mark R. Johnson was spending a large amount of time programming in AI behaviors involving time tables for work, having farmers man the fields, guards stand guard and replace each other at the appropriate time, etc., and to have that all work out regardless of whether the player is present, absent, or appears or disappears midway through such a scene. Currently, the NPCs in Dwarf Fortress in adventure mode tend to stand around inside their homes for the most part and do nothing.
Have you considered programming in the daily lives of NPCs (in adventure mode/outside of the fortress) in terms of going to work, eating, going to sleep, etc., and if so, how do you envision this for the future? Do you think it would be difficult/straightforward/possible to make it flexible enough that every day is not necessarily the same as the last, i.e. so that it doesn't interrupt more specific behaviors that don't fall under the purview of the everyday routine (that I think are currently much more developed already)? Also, on which other features (such as the economy or other social/cultural frameworks) does it rely, as far as you can see?
I imagine the absence (mostly) of this sort of AI currently influences how you might add some things, like in yesterday's devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2018-12-13) about (among other things) priests converting part of a community; I imagine that currently happens in a rather abstract manner, but once AI is more fleshed out, if it ever is, I imagine you might want to make this sort of thing more visible/make it so that it 'actually happens', so to speak. (I realize it's currently just WG stuff being described in there, so it would have to be abstract anyway, but I'm talking about when this shows up in other parts of the game.) Do you think this sort of thing is something best done relatively late (risking having to rewrite many other things that were at first abstracted) or early (risking you might not have all the prerequisite systems in place for it)? (Note that I'm not asking for a specific timetable or some such, obviously I know that's impossible to give at this point.)
Post by: therahedwig on December 14, 2018, 12:04:35 pm
I'm not sure if this verges on the suggestion-ey, but I think it's a general enough idea that it must be something you've thought about before, and I'm just curious in which ways you have considered it, and how it influences current development.
A while back now, Ultimate Ratio Regum developer Mark R. Johnson was spending a large amount of time programming in AI behaviors involving time tables for work, having farmers man the fields, guards stand guard and replace each other at the appropriate time, etc., and to have that all work out regardless of whether the player is present, absent, or appears or disappears midway through such a scene. Currently, the NPCs in Dwarf Fortress in adventure mode tend to stand around inside their homes for the most part and do nothing.
Have you considered programming in the daily lives of NPCs (in adventure mode/outside of the fortress) in terms of going to work, eating, going to sleep, etc., and if so, how do you envision this for the future? Do you think it would be difficult/straightforward/possible to make it flexible enough that every day is not necessarily the same as the last, i.e. so that it doesn't interrupt more specific behaviors that don't fall under the purview of the everyday routine (that I think are currently much more developed already)? Also, on which other features (such as the economy or other social/cultural frameworks) does it rely, as far as you can see?
Yes, this is planned.
Quote from: Devpage
Adventurer Role: Trader
* Site resources
* Villager/farmer schedules/activities
Quote
Afaik, part of the reason those villager schedules are underneath the trader role(apart from the fun task of finding that one asshole who farms pineapples), is because these schedules are probably going to be determined by what a civ requires them to be doing, which in turn is influenced by notions of property/customs/laws/economy, etc. Mechanically there's a lot of stuff that'll be opened up by the starting scenarios arc. There's for example already things like festivals/fairs and inquisitions in world gen, that do not happen in play, and fairs in particular are intended to replace the notion of the yearly caravan at some point. With that type of stuff in mind it is not unreasonable to imagine a conversion minded priest to walk onto your fortress' fairs and have them start converting. Hell, given how bards and scholars work, it isn't unlikely these priests will be able to do this within this arc, hobbling into your tavern and turning all your dwarves pious. That'd fit right into the whole linking and intrigue stuff this arc is focusing on.
I imagine the absence (mostly) of this sort of AI currently influences how you might add some things, like in yesterday's devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2018-12-13) about (among other things) priests converting part of a community; I imagine that currently happens in a rather abstract manner, but once AI is more fleshed out, if it ever is, I imagine you might want to make this sort of thing more visible/make it so that it 'actually happens', so to speak. (I realize it's currently just WG stuff being described in there, so it would have to be abstract anyway, but I'm talking about when this shows up in other parts of the game.) Do you think this sort of thing is something best done relatively late (risking having to rewrite many other things that were at first abstracted) or early (risking you might not have all the prerequisite systems in place for it)? (Note that I'm not asking for a specific timetable or some such, obviously I know that's impossible to give at this point.)
And, even in the current hamlets and towns you do see villagers heading out for a walk, going to get some water, etc. It's not much, but there's something there :p
The thing is that the laws and property stuff will do well to wait for the mythgen stuff because if you are gonna have gods walking around your world, it'd be good to have the civ's laws form opinions on those. But because the myth arc will take a long time so there's sufficiently cool stuff for gods and such to do, the villains and intrigue stuff is being done right now so players can chew on all those evil schemers in the world. That's the logic behind the ordering of the current devplan. And after that we might see expansion of these systems(more cool magic stuff, or more civ stuff for us to mess with), or we'll see work being done on parts that haven't had much attention like boats and other multitile goodness.
If I'm reading this correctly, we won't have to worry about megabeast worshippers turning into cults this arc?
Post by: alexsa2015sa on December 14, 2018, 03:12:31 pm
Currently it's not possible to parry (only block or dodge) natural weapons or wrestling moves - and being able to cut someone's grabby fingers would make chokeholds by low-skill wrestlers so much less deadly (I'll assume a high-skill one will just abort the contact instead of getting hurt). With spell effects eventually added into the mix, not being able to parry some Vampiric or Freezing Touch (nevermind an ankle lock!) is going to become way more relevant. Especially if it might turn out to be a Wood-And-Metal-To-Pus Touch which specifically targets your protection and you'd rather be one copper sword short (if even that, in case of a narrow-scope Steel-to-Rust, or Armok forbid Adamantine-to-Coke) than lose that steel breastplate which saves you from becoming a poisoned, blowdart-riddled pincushion.
It also makes bite attacks work really weird in that you can only dodge a tiny coyote, despite such a move being dangerous to suicidal with real-life physics when fighting against larger creature. Killing a beast with a sword/spear lodged between its teeth is such a cliche anyway it should probably work for those with sufficient combat skills.
Post by: therahedwig on December 14, 2018, 04:17:03 pm
I mean, the rest is still pretty worrying from a balance perspective, but I thought it is possible to chop off creatures' fingers...
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 14, 2018, 04:31:20 pm
Post by: alexsa2015sa on December 14, 2018, 05:11:29 pm
Huh, you can't chop off creatures' fingers in the current release?
Yeah, I thought I pretty clearly remembered chopping someone's finger off in adventure mode recently in fact. Could be wrong, of course.
Sure, you can chop off fingers. If you target them and if you pass the accuracy check or score a lucky strike. I'm speaking of failed grasp and natural attacks which were parried being treated as an attack on wrestler, something like this is mentioned in devlog as planned:
Quote
Not being able to hit a giant in the head, hitting a dragon in the head as a reaction when it attempts to bite(parrying punches or wrestles doesn't currently happen - even if it's partly sensible Edit: I mean possibility to catch the weapon instead, but that's overcomplicating Edit 2: and actually catching weapons is IIRC possible already, heh)
Post by: alexsa2015sa on December 14, 2018, 05:12:24 pm
Post by: therahedwig on December 14, 2018, 05:12:51 pm
Thanks for clarifying!
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on December 14, 2018, 05:40:56 pm
Yes, this is planned.Quote from: DevpageAdventurer Role: Trader
* Site resources
* Villager/farmer schedules/activities
Ah, right, I remember having read that before, now. So that is indeed how I should interpret that, being actually able to see the NPCs do their daily tasks, then perhaps visit a tavern based on their personality, and then go to bed? Sweet. I guess most of my question to Toady there can be reworked to just a request for confirmation of that interpretation of the quoted section of the devpage.
Afaik, part of the reason those villager schedules are underneath the trader role(apart from the fun task of finding that one asshole who farms pineapples), is because these schedules are probably going to be determined by what a civ requires them to be doing, which in turn is influenced by notions of property/customs/laws/economy, etc. Mechanically there's a lot of stuff that'll be opened up by the starting scenarios arc. There's for example already things like festivals/fairs and inquisitions in world gen, that do not happen in play, and fairs in particular are intended to replace the notion of the yearly caravan at some point. With that type of stuff in mind it is not unreasonable to imagine a conversion minded priest to walk onto your fortress' fairs and have them start converting. Hell, given how bards and scholars work, it isn't unlikely these priests will be able to do this within this arc, hobbling into your tavern and turning all your dwarves pious. That'd fit right into the whole linking and intrigue stuff this arc is focusing on.
And, even in the current hamlets and towns you do see villagers heading out for a walk, going to get some water, etc. It's not much, but there's something there :p
The thing is that the laws and property stuff will do well to wait for the mythgen stuff because if you are gonna have gods walking around your world, it'd be good to have the civ's laws form opinions on those. But because the myth arc will take a long time so there's sufficiently cool stuff for gods and such to do, the villains and intrigue stuff is being done right now so players can chew on all those evil schemers in the world. That's the logic behind the ordering of the current devplan. And after that we might see expansion of these systems(more cool magic stuff, or more civ stuff for us to mess with), or we'll see work being done on parts that haven't had much attention like boats and other multitile goodness.
Thank you very much for your comprehensive answer. Indeed, it does seem to make sense overall to do myth and magic relatively early, because it being metaphysical in nature and having to do with the very building-blocks of the world(s), many things depend on it and it itself depends on relatively fewer things, I guess. I do love that we're getting magic, but I am excited about the laws and property stuff, the expansion of the social and cultural frameworks, the economy, all that, too. I feel like that's the sort of thing it will take to get this sort of immersive AI that you can really see in action that appeals to my geeky nature the most.
Post by: Death Dragon on December 14, 2018, 10:08:13 pm
I don't understand how religions are going to affect fort mode temples in the future. In fort mode currently, we can create a temple and dedicate it to a certain god. Is anything about that going to change with this update?
For example, can we now dedicate temples to any god and not just to the ones of our civ because of how religions aren't connected to civs? Are we going to be able to dedicate temples straight up to religions instead of to gods? Or are religious groups going to "claim" temples we built that they like?
I assume that we won't be able to assign priests to our temples in fort mode because of how priests are positions chosen by the religious group themselves, not by the fort administrators (aka the player), right?
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 15, 2018, 12:21:38 am
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 15, 2018, 01:59:26 am
With all the work on religion will it be possible to choose what god your adventurer/s worships and at what "level"?
Seems more like a UI improvement since you can RNG back and forth until you get the god you want, but who knows, it might be minor enough to get picked up along the way.
Post by: Killermartian on December 15, 2018, 02:06:29 am
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 15, 2018, 04:03:48 am
Seems more like a UI improvement since you can RNG back and forth until you get the god you want, but who knows, it might be minor enough to get picked up along the way.
True it does seem more like a UI improvement then a "new" feature but as someone that does go back and forth a couple dozen times so I can get Ardent War or Fortress worshiper adventurers as is I really hope that its possible to choose given just how long it would take using RNG to get an entire squad to have the same religion and if you include the changes to demographics its going to be x100 harder as you'll have all of the religions in the entire civ to RNG though which could include dwarven, human and elven beliefs, so I decided to ask if it had changed.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 15, 2018, 04:39:34 am
Is it possible for two religions to claim the same city as their holy city?
Can't see why not, calibrating 'holy city' as a coined term of capital province for that group in a abstract way that the world would run out of space to have a holy city each, but Toady would be able to flatly answer this i think unless he changes his mind mid development.
Post by: Death Dragon on December 15, 2018, 07:06:17 am
With all the work on religion will it be possible to choose what god your adventurer/s worships and at what "level"?I wonder how the new adventure mode setup screen looks like in general. It was reworked like 5 months ago, but I don't think Toady ever showed a picture of it.
Is it possible for two religions to claim the same city as their holy city?Looks like they can at least have a temple in a holy city of another religion, looking at the maps of Rainy Sect and Fenced Faith.
I wonder if sharing a city is gonna create conflict between different religions. I'm guessing that would have to wait for the status update after the magic update though.
Post by: Killermartian on December 17, 2018, 02:52:15 am
Quote from: Death Dragon link =169696.msg7900991#msg7900991
Looks like they can at least have a temple in a holy city of another religion, looking at the maps of Rainy Sect and Fenced Faith.Im definitely interested in seeing if this could create something resembling a crusade.
I wonder if sharing a city is gonna create conflict between different religions. I'm guessing that would have to wait for the status update after the magic update though.
Post by: Random_Dragon on December 17, 2018, 12:19:38 pm
Im definitely interested in seeing if this could create something resembling a crusade.
And now I'm wondering how interaction between pantheons and regional forces will look like in that scenario.
Suppose that would be "Dii vult" in this case? :3
Post by: Miuramir on December 17, 2018, 01:38:01 pm
How accurately do you plan to make the map rewrite simulate geology? The 3 yards to one vertical block scale would make it unlikely for dwarves to get to magma, so I'm assuming not that accurately, but can we expect to see proper geological folds and igneous intrusions, with accompanying rock types, as well as the sorts of structures on the surface that one would expect to see due to erosion? How about glacial deposits? Would geological ages be included in the pre w.g. myth stage?
I just wanted to note that the current setup is less "doesn't simulate Earth geology well enough" than "fantasy setting doesn't run by the same physical laws". The best available info is that the DF world is a more or less artificial construct of fairly recent age (certainly by geological standards); approximately designed to look similar to a natural planet on the surface by the god(s) or meta-godlike entities that created it. The whole question of why / how the world appears to a thin shell of rock over a slade (scrith) foundation perilously suspended over (or floating on) an infinite pit of demons and hellfire is troubling at various levels if you think about it much.
Among other things, there is no current in-game evidence of subduction, sea-floor spreading centers, or even such Victorian ideas as planetary cooling crustal shrinkage. The topology is created in an initial state, gets a few volcanic hot-spots punched through, gets eroded a bit depending on settings and local rainfall, and that's what you end up with. The DF world may well be a temporary stop-gap by the god(s), and as presented would fall victim to the erosional problems of classical steady-state
Regarding glacial deposits, some of the sedimentary layer arrangements found in the lowlands can be interpreted as such, although there is no specific mechanism for large-scale glaciation (or any other non-steady-state major changes).
In any case, the upcoming Myth arc will radically change the way the worlds work; one of the examples from the talk was "fragments of the Cosmic Egg", and various other popular takes like "a disk supported on the back of seven giant olms" are likely to come up. The "geology", if one can even call it such, of such fantasy worlds is likely to be even less Earth-like, and ideally strongly connected to the myths of the world's creation at all but the lowest-magic levels.
That said, I'd love more interesting geology, realistic or otherwise. Intrusions / dykes, 3D ore veins, and so on would be a real improvement that would be useful in a variety of world systems.
Post by: therahedwig on December 17, 2018, 02:27:32 pm
Alas, we'll proly just have to do with the high priests selling all those temple instruments to spoony traveling bards.
I have to admit I am also kinda looking for more geological features if only because some real life features are quite odd, like hot springs, geysers, oases, weird gas vents, buttes, funny finger mountains like in meteora, or even just things like mud flats and proper working river behaviour(Though, I guess the latter would need some more intensive map rewrite to handle liquids better and allow for 1/7th layers of mud and the like).
But I dunno, I just like wandering around in adventure mode, and am really looking forward to the weirdness coming in the myth arc, it just doesn't need to be magical specifically. :p
Post by: Beag on December 18, 2018, 02:47:02 pm
2. With religious structures getting more variety will we start seeing monasteries on the side of major roads outside of a civilization site?
3. On a similar note will smaller civilization sites like hamlets and hillocks now have the possibility of including small religious structures like shrines?
4. Currently one special purpose some religious structures can have is being a catacombs, with all the new kinds of religious structures will new kinds of religious structures with special purposes come into being possible? If so can you name a few.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 18, 2018, 03:26:54 pm
1. Seeing as investigating villainous plots will be a new activity in the villain fleshing out update I am wondering how easy or hard it could potentially be to discover said plots. In the examples you have given the player finds out about the plot dealing with local troubles but will it also be possible to learn about plots by just walking around in town ease dropping on people? For example could you learn about a plot being conducted by the civilization's spy master by just hanging out around the castle in the center of town?
That was covered in the recent talk Toady did i think if initial plans for staged/convenient clues fell through (the same one wherin he discussed villians and how they broadly operate)
2. With religious structures getting more variety will we start seeing monasteries on the side of major roads outside of a civilization site?
3. On a similar note will smaller civilization sites like hamlets and hillocks now have the possibility of including small religious structures like shrines?
4. Currently one special purpose some religious structures can have is being a catacombs, with all the new kinds of religious structures will new kinds of religious structures with special purposes come into being possible? If so can you name a few.
Suggestion territory that isn't really that far linked into the current development work or development questions and may just warrant a 'I haven't thought about it' response but would be nice anyway. I think you could well say that Toady will improve the little off-beaten track sites in the future but actually manifesting the invisible ones without the pre-ordained 'lot spaces' in existing settlements like asked in a previous question would be a whole other seperate issue to address with the site rework/rewrites.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 18, 2018, 03:35:26 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 18, 2018, 04:38:58 pm
Didn't Toady outright say in a recent devlog that all civilized sites now have the potential to display religious art and shrines in certain areas?Yes. Latest devblog discusses monasteries, shrines and their statues and religious art in a city (commissioned by the very religious ruler of the town).
Post by: Beag on December 18, 2018, 04:52:02 pm
Post by: therahedwig on December 18, 2018, 08:21:31 pm
Well, I tried, I'll wait till next month before asking more questions or until I have more material to work with.Aw, don't be sad, FantasticDorf is primarily answering your questions because it helps cut down the amount of questions Toady has to answer at the end of the month, no more, no less.
I'm personally very curious how the game conceives of small shrines. Like, what will they look like? Will it happen that a shrine gets removed and replaced by something else than a temple, etc. But I guess all of that will have to wait until the release :)
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 20, 2018, 05:30:02 am
Q: If we are moving past the bulk raiding/interactive civ screen arc, will you be keeping it synchronized and updated with other features you are working upon for villians onwards?
Figuring that right now we can't actually see rumored areas and sites like kobold caves unless they are revealed in other ways explicitly (http://http:http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=170508.msg7750246#msg7750246) (answers varying from, using advanced world parameter to cheat viewing the cave, using a hearthsperson adventurer to explore on civ's behalf before embarking, or letting them steal a book to get a rough rumor co-ordinate even though this doesn't reveal the site after)
If its not a little bit too sly in saying, the function of a scout might be needed for the oversight if any villian in fortress mode you want to do anything to disrupt or break the agent network amongst your own dwarves can just hide in a lair or shrine and become untouchable while it spreads all over corrupting your population.
Post by: Mediterraneo on December 20, 2018, 10:54:54 am
Hello!
Is any form of sincretism planned soon either in form of outright melding of religions (of the same god or otherwise) or in the form of inclusion of some elements of a religion in others?
I mean, the number of resurrecting sun-gods that have their birthday on the 25 of december in our world is surprising.
And in your example of insignificance from 12/13/18 Current Development feed:
Quote
"Take these two religions, the Romantic Faith and the Adorable Creed, founded within five years of each other a century ago in the same dwarven fortress by two different prophets of the birth god Zefon. Each has only a single priest, the aged dwarf prophets preaching their own version of Zefon, but they've had impact throughout the area"Wouldn't the (chance of) melding the two prophets efforts have the potential of generating interesting emerging stories?
On the other hand:
Will there be any form of heresy included? Centrifugal forces inside religions, due to doctrinal or power sharing issues or both? If yes, will there be he chance of escalating and composing conflicts in it, getting to a reconciliation or to genocidal violence, or any point in between?
Thanks and Cheers everybody!
Post by: therahedwig on December 20, 2018, 01:16:39 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 20, 2018, 01:49:24 pm
Fantasticdorf, are you asking whether or not rumours your dwarves hear in the tavern will be added to the civ screen? I'm asking because I sometimes have a little trouble figuring out what you are writing in your posts and I don't quite understand what you're asking there. -_-
I was plainly stating that rumors and game information are seperate. You can know where a artifact is, but not see or reveal the site it is residing within without other non-related steps (touched upon in the hyperlink topic), to put it in a simplistic set of terms. Such as being able to see the location of a vault slab, but not 'Explore' the vault site seperately in a raiding squad.
I know news and rumors tracks rumors when you hear about them from visitors and arriving histfigs, and im not criticising that.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 20, 2018, 04:38:44 pm
Yes, but what is your question?Fantasticdorf, are you asking whether or not rumours your dwarves hear in the tavern will be added to the civ screen? I'm asking because I sometimes have a little trouble figuring out what you are writing in your posts and I don't quite understand what you're asking there. -_-
I was plainly stating that rumors and game information are seperate. You can know where a artifact is, but not see or reveal the site it is residing within without other non-related steps (touched upon in the hyperlink topic), to put it in a simplistic set of terms. Such as being able to see the location of a vault slab, but not 'Explore' the vault site seperately in a raiding squad.
I know news and rumors tracks rumors when you hear about them from visitors and arriving histfigs, and im not criticising that.
Will this ever be fixed? Well, yeah, Toady acknowledged the issue that no artifacts are hidden on the day the artifacts release hit and everything will be fixed someday. Or is it, will you fix this before the Big Wait?
Really sorry, I dont mean to come off as snarky, but as the 2nd person to wonder what your question was, the chance of it being misinterpreted through a haze of New Year swamp whiskey come fotf time only increases.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 21, 2018, 01:39:06 pm
What about deities that dont have a religion associated with them yet? What happens if i establish a temple for them?
We still cant establish a prophecy and thus a religion ourselves in any way, right? But can new prophets can crop up during play? Can my dorfs become a prophet, so i can establish their temple?
And to what extent do these religious organizations interact with civ/site governments? Irl, you have things like state sponsored or mandated religions, or bans on certain/all religions, or generally disagreements between religious believers and governments, or other faiths, that dont tolerate each other. Is that possibly coming this release as well, or will we have to wait for that?
Post by: Death Dragon on December 22, 2018, 05:14:08 am
If i were to, say, establish a temple for one of these newfangled religions in my fort, would that count towards their advancement to the next tier of priesthood?I asked some similar questions earlier. I don't think the current fort mode temples have anything to do with religions right now, only with specific gods. Not sure if Toady is going to change that for the update.
What about deities that dont have a religion associated with them yet? What happens if i establish a temple for them?
Post by: downwithgdi on December 22, 2018, 02:39:51 pm
For instance, if a creature's body size changes because of a magic effect, can you expect to see a prompt such as 'everything seems to get smaller/larger' in the action log?
Post by: falcc on December 23, 2018, 12:51:00 pm
2. Is a vermin pet going to attack in any circumstance, on your shoulder or off, and does that mean assassins can now let a poisonous spider into a room if NPCs don't also have pets that can attack such a small creature? Can your pet-caused deaths be tracked to you as a crime, or through syndromes made by pets you own? If you dump a bunch of barrel penetrating vermin into a shop will it be recognized as the new industrial sabotage crime since those items are otherwise tracked for thefts kind of? If a cleaning ability is modded on to a vermin will it activate it, either on the ground or not? What about, say, raising the dead?
I hadn't thought of it until now but vermin are kind of overpowered in adventure mode even before this release if they're actually tracked. But I guess that's why turkeys and chickens are always around. They're very helpful always scratching in the mud. Saving lives. But if someone slipped the monastery cats some beer and they all passed out the Most Holy Sky is going to be getting replaced pretty regularly. Then Sherlock Holmes will show up and notice that the snake literally has your name on it, foiling your perfect plot.
3. Will you be able to milk a purring maggot? I guess there's more work involved in making it so you can actually get purring maggots in the first place, since they don't work right now. But if you got them, the milk is right there. Not to mention the other animals you can presumably milk.
3a. Will we be able to milk our cows? Not as important as the purring maggot, because anybody could run off with that cow, but you're going to be protecting that maggot right on your person most of the time.
4. Since adventurers are getting some medical stuff, would starting with a pet cave spider instead of, say, a sword give them one-up on bandaging themselves? I'm going to need that if I'm scratched to hell from fighting while dizzy after catching all these cave spiders
5. To expand on an old question: since we already have the carpenter's workshop in adventure mode anyway could we start making cages and caging up animals we already own? Could we dedicate an area as a zoo in our sinister bandit fort, since all these nice adventurers will be dropping by to stop us now?
Post by: therahedwig on December 24, 2018, 11:06:28 am
I guess we now have an inkling of what a corrupted Sheriff may look like, and it seems guild will be having some resources of their own, at the least, during worldgen. I wonder if the alderman is the new name for guild representatives(in which case they might very much represent the modern notion of a alderman, a type of municipal council member dedicated to a specific area of government, like culture, law, etc), or just a fancy word for senior guild member.
Also interesting to see that this gang primarily focuses on corruption instead of the more violent gang activities. It makes sense, and it's nice to see that so fleshed out.
I guess we'll see :3
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 24, 2018, 11:40:02 pm
How extensive is the Legends data for villaneous goings on? Is it all accessible from Legends Mode and exportable to XML? Will we be able to check which corrupt officials brought about the downfall of our fortress in between games, or is some of the Hidden Fun permanently Hidden?
Also, come Fortress mode implementation, will firing of position holders for corrupt behaviour be simply left up to the player to implement, or will authority figures amongst the dorfs decide for us? Can nobles like barons be stripped of their rank by the mountain home in a similar way (in worldgen and within a player fortress)?
Finally, in the devblog you mentioned that:
"Earthhells tried to get her mother the militia commander to join up, but she was having none of it and never trusted her wayward daughter again."
Is that an actual thing (grudges/bad relationship forming due to failed corruption bids) or just a story embellishment?
Post by: Death Dragon on December 25, 2018, 04:05:40 am
Together with the fact that I just saw the first LotR movie again yesterday, I'm pretty damn hyped for this update.
I wonder if the alderman is the new name for guild representatives(in which case they might very much represent the modern notion of a alderman, a type of municipal council member dedicated to a specific area of government, like culture, law, etc), or just a fancy word for senior guild member.He made it sound like a pretty important title in a guild. I wonder if the name is static or if it is randomly picked like with those new random titles he added in one of the last devlogs.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 25, 2018, 04:14:14 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 25, 2018, 04:14:46 am
Post by: Death Dragon on December 26, 2018, 06:30:07 am
From the latest devlog:
"Lomoth, fond of scheming and idly wishing to become wealthy and powerful ..."
"Aban was an extravagant sort, and given to flights of fancy, so ..."
"... Earthhells was able to play on her father's bond of love as well as his greed."
Will these bits of explanation be listed in the information in legends mode or did you only get them through your debugging tools?
Post by: bieux on December 26, 2018, 04:58:48 pm
EDIT: I'm modifying my question so it may be more relevant and unique, although I'm not sure I have the time for it.
Don't know if talking people into crime actually gives bad consequences to the criminal, but considering they do, what are the possible bad outcomes from doing this, besides losing a relationship from someone? Can it go so bad as for the criminal to be exposed, or beaten? Will people lead unconvincing criminals to justice?
Also, if affirmative, will the criminals just stand there and take the consequences or will they try to escape or elliminate the threats they might have caused?
Post by: Death Dragon on December 27, 2018, 10:08:22 am
Post by: Hapchazzard on December 28, 2018, 12:10:55 pm
2. Assuming that villains will try and hoard artifacts (if their beliefs are appropriate), how will they store them if they don't have some kind of 'lair' (castle, for example)? Again, let's take the blacksmith as an example - if she stole some artifact sword through her network, would she just plop it down in her small house and forget about it?
3. Is any kind of simple economic stratification planned for the villain release? Nothing impressive, as I realize that the bulk of the more complex work is reserved for the law arc, but at least having affluent people have more impressive abodes, clothing, etc. It would somewhat tie into the villain system - i.e. impoverished folks being more susceptible to paltry bribes, villains working their way up into a more ostentatious lifestyle, nobles having nice homes in cities, castles/fortresses being various levels of extravagant based on the prestige and wealth of their holder, etc.
4.There were mentions of there being a setting for the 'bleakness' of the world. I can see how such a setting would affect the magic of the world, but will it also significantly affect the non-magical components of the world as well, such as civilizations being harsher and more xenophobic, people in charge tending to be more ruthless and amoral, natural savagery being higher on average, etc.?
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 28, 2018, 12:45:32 pm
3: I very much doubt it. Stratification is built on economics and social stuff like laws and customs, so shoehorning some temporary structure in seems to be a fair bit of work for a fairly meager benefit, especially given that this villainy semi-arc is already getting rather long.
Post by: Beag on December 29, 2018, 02:06:45 pm
2. If our bone carving adventurers create figurines depicting a deity would followers of that deity recognize the art in question as religious?
3. Would pieces of art depicting a deity be more valuable trading wise in a holy city dedicated to that deity?
4. With prophets being able to convert large portions of civilizations will religions themselves gain their own sets of values like civilizations have? This could make for some good religious civil wars.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 29, 2018, 04:44:45 pm
Does the (currently largely aesthetic AFAIK) value system play any role in how likely an NPC is to become a villain? For instance, I'd think a character whose values tend towards extremes might be more likely to engage in villainous behaviour.
Post by: Putnam on December 29, 2018, 04:54:41 pm
A question that's probably already been asked and possibly answered in some form or another, but just in case it hasn't:
Does the (currently largely aesthetic AFAIK) value system play any role in how likely an NPC is to become a villain? For instance, I'd think a character whose values tend towards extremes might be more likely to engage in villainous behaviour.
Yes. First result from searching "value" in the devlog:
Quote
Dwarves and others are variously tempted by e.g. the opportunity to embezzle or accept bribes using the power of their positions. If their personality and values aren't up to the challenge, they may eventually fall to temptation and undertake corrupt activities in an ongoing fashion, which will make them a target for both law enforcement and blackmail.
Post by: therahedwig on December 29, 2018, 05:20:00 pm
The thing is that all Dwarves(and Elves, and Goblins) have the same values, it gets a little bit more interesting when making human adventurers. I had one human civ where everyone was super obsessed with romance, and so all generated adventurers had a need to romance and most of the time the dream to fall in love. Elves, similarly have a need to see animals and often the dream to see all natural wonders. I haven't ever had a Goblin resident, so I am not sure what their values do.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 29, 2018, 05:23:42 pm
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/af/a7/a4afa70d3349e06738f60aa62fa9cf96.gif)
Due to high POWER value obsession, very occasionally also wanting to be legendary warriors (you see this amongst humans sometimes) but humans are virtually different between civ to civ.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 29, 2018, 05:56:53 pm
Anyway, thanks for the answers.
Post by: Kaltag on December 29, 2018, 10:04:23 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 29, 2018, 10:11:14 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 29, 2018, 10:21:23 pm
Pretty sure this can already happen, it's not exactly fleshed-out but in a very basic form it's possible.Yes, you can encounter them in adventurer if you're lucky. Hard to tell what's going on sometimes, but you can encounter fleeing prisoners and slaves which is fun.
Toady removed them from sites you take over in squad raids before release because the balance isn't quite right yet (new administrators would quit almost immediately from fear of a potential revolution).
Post by: Kaltag on December 29, 2018, 11:26:29 pm
Pretty sure this can already happen, it's not exactly fleshed-out but in a very basic form it's possible.Yes, you can encounter them in adventurer if you're lucky. Hard to tell what's going on sometimes, but you can encounter fleeing prisoners and slaves which is fun.
Toady removed them from sites you take over in squad raids before release because the balance isn't quite right yet (new administrators would quit almost immediately from fear of a potential revolution).
Is it possible to join a rebellion as an adventurer?
Post by: Death Dragon on December 30, 2018, 04:21:29 am
Is it possible to join a rebellion as an adventurer?I'm not sure if you can join other rebellious groups, but you can make your own by claiming a site and recruiting people for your cause.
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 30, 2018, 04:59:33 am
Will there ever be such things as a rebellion? Say the citizens of a civ are upset about the way the ruler/high ranking official acts, could the civilians forcibly replace him/her? If so could adveturers join them?I believe rebellions is what cause my long time fortress worlds to crumble: The other civs just shrink and the sites they had are no longer claimed by any civ, while still being populated (and not just by 5 refugees, but by reasonable numbers of inhabitants, so they haven't been sacked). My guess is that rebellions cause sites to leave civs, and civs aren't sufficiently active to reclaim their lost sites or grab sites others have lost in the activated world.
Post by: Death Dragon on December 30, 2018, 05:07:30 am
The cistercians were (and still kinda are, I guess) a monk order in medieval Europe who started out as very strict, chastely, self-contained monks, but as they expanded more and more, they started producing a surplus of resources, which they then exported and sold for profit, instead of just being self-sufficient. They eventually turned into a profit-oriented megacorporation that spread "franchise" monasteries to almost all of Europe and made so much money that they could fund the Knights Templar, leading to the Second Crusade. (Most of their wealth originates from the fact that they exploited cheap labor, but that's a whole other topic.)
With the current way monastic orders and corporations are implemented, would it be possible for a monastic order to develop itself into something similar to a corporation, or are they two separate types of entities that make use of different types of tools and actions? Mainly, what I'm asking is, could a monastic order become a profitable producer of goods and expand to other locations similar to a corporation?
In the last devlogs I only saw you mention monasteries needing funding by other factions to expand, so I'm not sure if you at all planned for this to be possible. There's something to be said about keeping them as separate, distinct entities. It would be less realistic, but probably more game-like. But I guess it would make sense if for example a monk order who worship the god of wealth would somehow also be a wealth-accruing business.
I know this mostly doesn't matter until we actually have the economy update, but there was a bunch of work done on these kinda entities in the villain update.
Post by: GoblinCookie on December 30, 2018, 07:19:58 am
Post by: therahedwig on December 30, 2018, 07:21:54 am
A lot of this also kinda hinges on doctrines being hashed out during the next two arcs. Religions will proly be the first place we're going to see rules make a difference if we're going to start with Divine law in myth and magic.
That and of course, there's a reason religions got a little fleshing out during this arc :) Gotta have our Borgia and Medici.
Hm... I guess in a similar vein: In terms of corruption, are the histfigs already capable of mechanisms like nepotism/cronyism/simony where someone gets into a position due being family/buddies/benefactor of a power holding histfig instead of the usual route? Or does that require a bit more rules about how positions are obtained in the first place?
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 30, 2018, 08:51:55 am
Hm... I guess in a similar vein: In terms of corruption, are the histfigs already capable of mechanisms like nepotism/cronyism/simony where someone gets into a position due being family/buddies/benefactor of a power holding histfig instead of the usual route? Or does that require a bit more rules about how positions are obtained in the first place?
Might be a law arc caveat, but inheritance of positions through artifacts (royal sceptre of rulership etc. crown jewels) wasn't particularly followed through, maybe we'll see something but i dont think Toady's done much beside acknoweldge it as something he might want to go back to. Like how tavern games didnt make the cut, or that shady character he was tweeting about peddling counterfiet outside inns in the dead of night like Del-Boy.
As to actual religious hybrid organisations, i think that'd be more befitting of a civilization cultural format rather than any particular organisation, cross organisation sponsorship i guess through roundabout ways could put the temple leader in charge of multiple organisations at once just by coincidence or inheritance and cross the values of both.
Elf acolytes & Druids are monks of sorts that control everything in the elf civ already from whatever mysterious or shady position they sit at.
Post by: Death Dragon on January 01, 2019, 06:54:39 am
One of the things to remember about the Cisterian order is that while they had a darn lot of power, they never conceived of themselves as a corporation. The Merchant corporations in the game conceive of themselves as 'people who trade goods', and so, the monestary orders conceive of themselves as 'people who worship a deity'. I guess the only real mechanism that is necessary to get Cisterian Monks is Monks who are able to sell surplus and have mechanisms to engage in economic activity that suits their needs (like a religion focusing on merriment will try to fund bards and festivals, but might also fund mercenaries to beat their enemies, and depending on who is heading, might plan to gain funds to do this activity).Yeah, I was basically asking how big the divide between these two entity types is and if they can act in sorta similar ways or if they are very restricted in what they are allowed to do.
The Cistercians were still a monk order, yeah, but they were very profit-oriented and, as far as I know, sent out controller people who made sure that their daughter/sister monasteries were profitable.
Post by: Toady One on January 01, 2019, 07:26:22 am
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Will fortress dwarves with the potential for evil scheming (please excuse the explicitly specific examples but necromancer/vampire being atypical villians) use retired or abandoned fortresses as a base, or is this immunized in world generation?
These are the kinds of things players i reckon could foster on site (maybe accidently) in terms of world building, as to note its quite similar to kruggsmash's illustrated youtube series. (any wondering where the inspiration for the question came there then ) Though of course the weaponization of 100's of goblin corpses from uncleaned up seiges would mean they have plenty of ammunition and maybe be able to skip to the end of their master plan of collection in the necromancer's case.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7894881#msg7894881
I'm not sure what you mean by retired fortresses vs. "immunized in world generation," as those seem mutually exclusive. Abandoned fortresses are available, and retired fortresses work like other sites generally, so all kinds of stuff can happen at either one. Unless you meant something more specific. We don't keep track of or use items/corpses at all outside of artifacts much at all for retired forts, so there won't be a lot going on with that specifically.
Quote from: squamous
1. How will we see NPCs reacting to player plots? Say that my character decides to make a tavern their base of operations, and uses their companions to run various schemes targeting the ruler of that same city. If I get caught somehow, will people be sent to look for and possibly kill me? Could I be minding my own business in said tavern when a squad of goons burst in looking to take me out?
2. Will Night Trolls be able to partake in villain plots?
3. Say that I decide to start assassinating high-ranking authorities of a certain religion. Will this somehow effect the game world and cause other groups to show up and fill the gap?
4. If the pre-Big Wait adventure mode medical improvements make it in, what might they look like? Could there be a hospital site where you can lay on a bed and expect treatment from nearby doctors, for example?
5. Will we be able to conquer abandoned sites any time soon? Maybe it results in some sort of bugginess but I thought it was odd that you couldn't occupy sites with nobody in them.
1. This almost entirely depends on how law enforcement works post w.g. for non-player villains. It can't be too aggressive or villains will all be folded up, but it needs to exist, or villains will be too successful. It's hard for me to predict now how that'll intersect with the adv or fort villain experience, but that's definitely a balance consideration. As with the adv/fort time difference, we'll see if it's possible to bridge all the gaps simultaneously or whether cludgy hacks are necessary.
2. They aren't currently involved. There's going to be some more added to world gen in the coming weeks as we close that section off. I'd say the odds are against now, but it depends on what gets the most traction.
3. As with the economy, there isn't a much going on in terms of passive cultural effects and so forth, especially after world gen closes off. As a lot of the religious stuff is new, it's still on the table to be considered for addition to the post w.g. work when that begins. This means that killing religious figures could very well disturb the spread of the religion post w.g., if we do that stuff, though in w.g. we don't have actual retractions of religion from dangerous areas, so as long as they can find a replacement, the position would eventually be filled again, often quickly, unless the overall dynamics change. But converts would be targeted by those still active, so the "fill the gap" part might end up mattering. Religious people are sometimes involved in plots as well, of course, and killing them would disrupt those too.
4. I imagine some simple self-treatment options would come first, and often be the most practical given how adv mode works, but yeah, use of doctors, who of course exist in fort mode, is on the table.
5. Like a reclaim? Yeah, it's a reasonable thing and probably not hard to do, as there's already an "army controller" for it that the non-player groups use for post w.g. reclaims. Dunno about "soon," as usual.
Quote from: Strik3r
1. Modded instruments can have a custom description, will it be possible for all items in the future?
2. In regards to Mythgen and items: Completely random worlds probably will have some bizarrely named equipment. How will it be communicated to the player that "zbfkl"s or whatever random jumbles of letters are infact, swords? This also extends to other things: As far as i know there isn't any indication in-game that a piece of armor is shaped, for example.
3. As part of mythgen, will generated sentient creatures in high-randomness worlds wear( and will it be possible to mod) clothing and armor worn on bodyparts other than what's possible right now, where it makes sense? For example: Tail armor, Wing decorations, even actual clothing worn on the ears if the creature's ears are big enough?
4. Cursed equipment( of the unremovable variety) is a fantasy staple, will MagicGen produce stuff like this? if so, can we also expect mundane stuff that can't be easily unequipped due to whatever reason?
5. Who will villians target with their plots and schemes? Will their personality affect what they do? For example, may some villians attempt to do shady things for the benefit of their civ?
1. Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7897842#msg7897842
I certainly need to handle that at some point. Item descriptions have been absolutely terrible for more than a decade. I haven't had a clear time to move forward on that. Just have to make space somewhere.
2. FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7897900#msg7897900
Instruments are a special case, since people are used to encountering instruments with various names from various cultures, more than most other objects, in my experience (though I'm not stating a thesis here.) And they generally aren't a life or death object. For those, you can see in the vaults that we just call them e.g. <adjective> swords right now, generally. I'm not sure how far we'll attempt to step beyond that at default settings. There is a possible mixture where items get both descriptive and cultural names. Some existing games already extend that backwards to items we just use regular names for, giving descriptive names that give way as you learn about them, and that's possible depending on the context. But I don't intend to throw people into a complete mess.
3. This seems likely, since they'll be default playable races in fort mode, where that'll make a huge difference. Obviously that's important for modders as well; I imagine there'll be about a zillion reasons modders will be happy with the magic release, of course.
4. As you say, it's a fantasy staple. Also a roguelike staple. Whether that ties into everyday inconveniences like a suit of armor being more annoying to take off will probably be unrelated issues.
5. The third part of this question is more complicated than the first two parts, since personality matters and they target anybody who isn't their friend with special emphasis on people they don't like or who have things they want or who are in their way (e.g. law enforcement.) Altruistic acts though, or stuff with a generally larger purpose that may or may not include the villain themself, haven't really been on the menu though. This ties back into the larger question of all of the villain stuff being enlarge-able to general espionage and diplomacy all the way over to general plan formulation toward some end without just killing people. We're still on the villain part of this progression mainly.
Quote from: Orange Fried Egg
1. Will dogs ever be able to be used for herding or have any interactions involving herding?
Along with other things
2. like smelling for creatures/things &
3. possibly to assist in plant gathering
and hunting(in ways other than just attacking such as:
4.Retrieving the kill
5.finding prey without attacking)
or for activities like
6.scaring birds(filthy thieving Keas) away
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7897900#msg7897900
All reasonable suggestions! Since you ruled out attacking, I'd say none of that is going in this release. I imagine herding algorithms are pretty complicated, since it's a layer on top of flocking behavior (which we don't meaningfully have either), but some of it is do-able.
Quote from: Real_bang
"Incidentally, Ashi's only involvement with Bunnygears was unleashing a werezebra on it, the current price of having a temple to profane. We'll improve this at a later date, he he he."
Does that mean new curses/blessings? :O
Ha, later date was more of a Big Wait reference. The plate is overfull already for this release.
Quote
Quote from: FantasticDorfInteresting new devlog, i have two questions.
I haven't seen a megabeast ruler for a while in first or thirdhand accounts of game experience, but with things considered for the villian arc and the nessecary plotting of a demon or possibly cyclops (with intelligence and power tokens accounted) will living in world religious icons of a cult have any importance to this new system, such as cyclops in power* building temples to themselves to expand influence or (followers/leaders/icons) somehow founding a mutual or one sided relationship with other related beings in spheres
* (after plotting some intricate steps to the throne like extortion and kidnap to be thwarted by adventurers or just plain duffing up and routing a town before settling their own monsterous government for desperate people and worshippers to migrate to)
Question no #2, i can't help but notice the parallel's to a Kruggsmash video in which he went over his mutual suprise how owl people migrated from the wild and joined one of his in world AI civilizations, with other factors like diety representation and relevant held beliefs* joining a civ that valued it and had a owlman faced god. Will factors like this reflect the outcome of how animal people are dispersed more actively?
* (owls often being a subjective representation of knowledge, though there are some other cultural variations, like saying pigs or hogs are attached to greed and excess, jackals or vultures to death and decay if you wanted a animal-headed egyptian like pantheon.)
It seems a bit of a bandying into the Law & Property arc if you ask me, the same way we took a fancy to the hilllock arc early in a strange tangental way, though adding token spheres onto particular animal people/animals is painless to achieve for the relevant effect of generating dieties that look like a particular form like mentioned in the above citation.Quote from: therahedwigIf I'm reading this correctly, we won't have to worry about megabeast worshippers turning into cults this arc?
Yes, for the moment, megabeasts and forces were excluded for technical reasons (prophets make prophecies which are deity-based.) When I added the deity flag check, it solved a problem, but I was also inwardly grumpy with it, so I expect it won't last forever, though in DF that can mean anything.
I don't recall the animal people actually caring about any of that stuff; your example is more on the serendipitous side of DF stories than something planned, though animal symbolism generally is something we've thought about, and it's complicated, naturally.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
The links you're creating between all of the people in the world are really fascinating. Large world Legends should be great fun to read through. How well do you think the villains system will scale down though? With a small pop pocket world, are we likely to see either no real plots going on due to a lack of links, or the opposite situation of every histfig in the world plotting against every other histfig? Or do you think it'll scale relatively smoothly?
The percentage of principle villainous actors should be relatively constant, due to the data being polled being mostly scale-independent. The action is mostly local, which is favorable, and most links are the same way. The smallest worlds might be missing some of the neater links, due to the geography involved and the lack of multiple market towns in the same civ (so e.g. religions have more trouble gaining hierarchies.) Over longer times (and smaller worlds tend to have longer histories, or at least, it's more feasible for them to have them if you change the settings), the smaller worlds will have a bit of a pressure cooker effect; you even get that a bit between medium and large the way the site cap and hf cap works with the space provided. I haven't seen any deal-breakers yet, but will certainly be open to size-based adjustments of some parameters if it ends up being ridiculous, and I haven't done many small run-throughs yet, worldgen still being in progress.
Quote from: Inarius
Can people "enlarge" an already existing religious infrastructure if there are more people believing in this particular god ?
And are there several "levels" of temples, like churches vs cathedrals ?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7897942#msg7897942
The infrastructure is all smaller scale stuff, which continues to be built up in worldgen after there are temples. What the continued building of this means post w.g. is still an open question. Maps are a bit more finicky there, especially on a second visit, but I do have a few architectural change abilities. Temples themselves don't change yet.
Quote
Quote from: FantasticDorfHow do majority faiths in the rework retaliate to "heresy" and opposing sphere beliefs in town?Quote from: Real_bangWith religion being updated should we expect inquisitions in the next release? Also would we see religion mixing so some humans would believe in dwarven gods or other things like that (if its not in the game already)?Quote from: Death DragonI think at most we can hope for people profaning temples and shrines of religions that they don't like. Not sure if people can dislike (and sabotage) other religions because they see them as "rivals" to their own religion in the currently developed update, but it could be using the same framework that companies use when they sabotage rival companies, so maybe. Can you maybe confirm, Toad?Quote from: FantasticDorfWill religion have any standing to the static or variable hereditary noble positions for a requirement to holding a post/consideration of nomination?*
*- Though the latter is a slightly more fluid majority thing it would seem from our current level of information in towns, pantheons are not so clear cut as saying 'your ruler needs [RELIGION:CHRISTIANITY]' to be egible to rule as much as sponsoring a particular god higher than others.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7899085#msg7899085
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7899224#msg7899224
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7899232#msg7899232
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7899236#msg7899236
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7901996#msg7901996
As I recollect, temple razing used to be quite common. That's gone now, since it was closely linked to the old religion/temple code. I didn't get to anything more subtle or similar, really, though there's still a note on the release, so it's possible.
On the last question, like a state religion (or some softer/etc. version of that)? Not at this point; there's just the state actors and their infrastructure building. The remaining note partially concerns this matter: religious violence/etc. pointing upwards, downwards and sideways, with a bit more structure to say what defines up-down in terms of the state vs. popular religions, and sideways in terms of beliefs/values/spheres. Whether we go anywhere with that this time depends on the unknown contours of the final bits of w.g. villain work. We know they need to be more varied, but exactly how that unfolds relies on the movement of the spirit and/or humours as it happens.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Does the religion rewrite just apply to proper pantheons, or to any religious figure? Would elven immigrants in a human town start erecting little shrines to the nature spirit of their woods back home?
The shrine rewrite applies to them, but the prophet function doesn't yet, as mentioned above; this may change.
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Quote from: Beag1. You mentioned in one of your recent dev logs that soon gods will be able to do more things for mortals than just give them vampirism, were beast ism and secrets of life in death in the new villain update that will occur before the myth and magic wait. Would our player adventurers be able to receive theses new blessings or curses from the gods? And if so how would we go about receiving these new boons or banes from the gods?
2. I remember a while back you were going to release an update that allowed us to have multiple party members and pets at the start of our adventures. Is that update going to be combined with the villain update? I ask this because you haven't released it or talked about it recently.
3. Seeing as religious groups are becoming bigger players in the villain update will our player adventurers be able to join some of these religious groups similar to how we can become hearth people for rulers? And if so will we be able to receive special religious quests from them similar to how hearth people get military quests? And if so would our player adventurer gain fame within that religious group and or getting special worldly or divine rewards?
4. What sort of plots do you think religious groups will undertake? Also would the sphere of the deity the group worships affect what kind of plots they try to pull off?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerSo, Did you finish the tactical party combat system for Adventurer?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7898658#msg7898658
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7898690#msg7898690
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7898692#msg7898692
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7898697#msg7898697
3. There's a certain squad-inflected nature to the current adventurer joining process (hearth people aren't position holders.) Now, we'd like to get to some aspects of adventurer position holding, and that was related to this whole villain push, but we aren't yet in the position to see exactly where we'll land for this release on that.
4. And yeah, religious plots not a particular thing at this point, as opposed to being a general villain who is in a religious organization and just power-hungry and/or scheming. This could change in coming weeks depending on the selections of additional villainous acts before moving on to post w.g. Still have some choosing to do.
Ha ha, no, there are still several unfinished party matters. It's been such a weird long half-year that I don't even remember what caused me to pull away from where I was on that to go to finish the villains first. I don't think it'll take a super long time to clean up when I go back, but there'll definitely be some of that this release. Fortunately, the greatest hurdle, of getting villains to work at all, is now done. Another great hurdle is making fort mode investigations and other counter-villainy fun; I mean, it'll definitely be Fun, but we have the other word to worry about too, in terms of engaging and interesting choices, balance, pacing, exposition, all that, up to our admittedly imperfect standards on the latter three especially. I think adv mode will be a little more straightforward but I could be wrong about that.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
How accurately do you plan to make the map rewrite simulate geology? The 3 yards to one vertical block scale would make it unlikely for dwarves to get to magma, so I'm assuming not that accurately, but can we expect to see proper geological folds and igneous intrusions, with accompanying rock types, as well as the sorts of structures on the surface that one would expect to see due to erosion? How about glacial deposits? Would geological ages be included in the pre w.g. myth stage?
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7901966#msg7901966
Yeah, there'll be more tension once the myth rewrite and map rewrite are done, as I'll have more control over larger scale geology, and also stranger metaphysics to respect. Over in no-magic land, the idea would be to get as many systems as possible into the game, but of course, we need to pick favorites. Generally I'd lean toward the ones that create either more interesting mechanical situations in the game and/or better vistas/embark sites. There will very likely be some basic additions on the first pass, just so I can get my sea legs (or whatever is the opposite of sea legs, since it's mostly dry/hot geology here... magma sea legs or something); and yeah, intrusion formations like batholiths fit the bill mechanically, aesthetically and geologically, so that kind of thing is on the menu. I haven't thought as much about glaciers, but it seems I should add tarns at some point so the game can finally have a self-insert.
Quote from: Real_bang
If multi-tiled creatures are a thing to come someday, will we see multi-tile cage traps/other means of capturing them
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7899313#msg7899313
Real_bang (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7899343#msg7899343
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7901996#msg7901996
Quote from: therahedwig
When I went to take a look at the Elven civ in my world, I noticed that Elves take a lot of walks, like, I've seen humans out of a stroll, but elves go out for a stroll en masse, sometimes in big groups and sometimes I would see multiple big groups at once come by.
Is taking walks an official Elven pastime or something? Or is it just a quirk of forest retreats having the residences in the air?
Ha ha ha, lack of wells maybe? Humans like to go to wells, and the other option might be the stroll. We'll have to iron out these quirks at some nebulous point.
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Quote from: FantasticDorfQuestion: With the new devlog, will there be any overlap with how holy cities/prophet mechanics can be inferred into fortress play due to how many temples are set up around the place?*
* Seems like a nice pull for a temple tourist trap, orchestrating your fortress as the spawning ground for a home-made prophet.
It seems that [POSITION:RELIGION] may be tenable for the future in playable civilisations without incurring a crash if not actually carrying gameplay i hope with the new changes too, despite the weird barely used place its in right now.
Though just to add as feedback for the devlog in general your issue around sphere competition could be alleivated by evil sphere alignment modifier's with a little bit of religious code but this is not particularly a suggestion as much as just anecdotal to myself running w.g dark fortress goblins with negative sphere pantheons without much trouble which even if demons/dark fort leaders get some form of special religion to play Pyongyang cult of personality for the future or better tying by becoming a assigned forceful self-prophet, should be resistant enough to the outside world's good spheres.Quote from: Death DragonI don't understand how religions are going to affect fort mode temples in the future. In fort mode currently, we can create a temple and dedicate it to a certain god. Is anything about that going to change with this update?
For example, can we now dedicate temples to any god and not just to the ones of our civ because of how religions aren't connected to civs? Are we going to be able to dedicate temples straight up to religions instead of to gods? Or are religious groups going to "claim" temples we built that they like?
I assume that we won't be able to assign priests to our temples in fort mode because of how priests are positions chosen by the religious group themselves, not by the fort administrators (aka the player), right?Quote from: Eric BlankIf i were to, say, establish a temple for one of these newfangled religions in my fort, would that count towards their advancement to the next tier of priesthood?
What about deities that dont have a religion associated with them yet? What happens if i establish a temple for them?
We still cant establish a prophecy and thus a religion ourselves in any way, right? But can new prophets can crop up during play? Can my dorfs become a prophet, so i can establish their temple?
And to what extent do these religious organizations interact with civ/site governments? Irl, you have things like state sponsored or mandated religions, or bans on certain/all religions, or generally disagreements between religious believers and governments, or other faiths, that dont tolerate each other. Is that possibly coming this release as well, or will we have to wait for that?
It's on the list of considerations, for the w.g. -> post w.g. / adv / fort conversion. In some ideal universe, the religions will be respected equally between all forms of play. We are quite squeezed on this release now as we enter the new year, but it can certainly be considered a deficiency now until it's handled. The fort should be able to become a holy city or have temples assigned to specific world religions rather than just deities or even have a new religion spring up from a prophet. As Death Dragon says, the religions should be able to choose their own priests. We haven't leaned into state religions in worldgen, but there's room for that as well, and in fort mode that makes it a player choice if the monarch isn't in an override mood (considering the player as the official will of the fortress.) The potential story conflicts there are all interesting, and getting the player involved is even better. But we won't know until if that's in until the fort mode work is underway.
The same is true of the guilds and merchant companies; clearly, we want more out of the economy and subgroups and so forth generally in fort mode before we dive into that, but it's now staring at us from worldgen. Generally, the countervailing force isn't just time, but also the law/customs/subgroup/etc. release, which at least in the more gnarly cases will feel more necessary as we get to the higher-res fort and adv modes (and not just w.g.) However, I'm hopeful that we'll see some movement, especially since the current fort mode temples just aren't going to hold up as they currently exist.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will it be possible for us to "defend" goblin civs from religion a little by modding in a position holder with Religion as a workaround? Or is it not that simple?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900439#msg7900439
They need to worship something. I recall them not having competing infrastructure in the test, but I thought there was also a demon worship element before, so I'm a bit confused. I'll check that out. If you add a religion position, and they do worship the demon, then that would double the rate and help. Of course, having them create their own demon prophets would also be cool, and perhaps funny since the demon is like right there, and will almost certainly not hold whatever exact belief about the destruction of the world is ascribed to them, even if they agree with it in broad strokes.
Quote from: Inarius
Will religion deeply affect politics/psychology ? I think of religious wars or fights or good/bad relationships based on religious differences
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900506#msg7900506
Yeah, since religions carry the values of the prophet, which can be different from their birth civ, and then also very different from civs where they spread, this can cause some extra value deviation where the religion is practiced. I need to implement more drift among believers, though. The value difference is only evident among certain people, as it doesn't capture late converts the same way, so there are some inconsistencies.
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
A while back now, Ultimate Ratio Regum developer Mark R. Johnson was spending a large amount of time programming in AI behaviors involving time tables for work, having farmers man the fields, guards stand guard and replace each other at the appropriate time, etc., and to have that all work out regardless of whether the player is present, absent, or appears or disappears midway through such a scene. Currently, the NPCs in Dwarf Fortress in adventure mode tend to stand around inside their homes for the most part and do nothing.
Have you considered programming in the daily lives of NPCs (in adventure mode/outside of the fortress) in terms of going to work, eating, going to sleep, etc., and if so, how do you envision this for the future? Do you think it would be difficult/straightforward/possible to make it flexible enough that every day is not necessarily the same as the last, i.e. so that it doesn't interrupt more specific behaviors that don't fall under the purview of the everyday routine (that I think are currently much more developed already)? Also, on which other features (such as the economy or other social/cultural frameworks) does it rely, as far as you can see?
I imagine the absence (mostly) of this sort of AI currently influences how you might add some things, like in yesterday's devlog about (among other things) priests converting part of a community; I imagine that currently happens in a rather abstract manner, but once AI is more fleshed out, if it ever is, I imagine you might want to make this sort of thing more visible/make it so that it 'actually happens', so to speak. (I realize it's currently just WG stuff being described in there, so it would have to be abstract anyway, but I'm talking about when this shows up in other parts of the game.) Do you think this sort of thing is something best done relatively late (risking having to rewrite many other things that were at first abstracted) or early (risking you might not have all the prerequisite systems in place for it)? (Note that I'm not asking for a specific timetable or some such, obviously I know that's impossible to give at this point.)
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900592#msg7900592
Whatsifsowhatsit (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900774#msg7900774
Not only planned, but there used to be eating and sleeping scheduled in adv mode, with magically refilling food barrels. Took it out for whatever reason (when I added real food piles? before? don't recall.) So I'm definitely leaning toward late rather than early, since early already broke once, same as the fort mode economy. In more than one way, the return of the fort mode economy is very similar to the re-addition and expansion of an NPC scheduling system. The NPC stuff is a bit harder when you consider resources, though, if that's to work at all realistically. It seems impossible to get right, though it might not be. Strategy games based around trading and making outposts etc. do all the number pushing correctly to some extent, but we'd need a lot more of it, with a fort-mode level AI to the point it could almost play fort mode itself, 2000 times at once around the world at varying degrees of abstraction. This seems a stretch. But we'll certainly do more than the nothing we have now.
And yeah, the ultimate idea is to have a w.g. <-> post w.g. <-> fort mode <-> adv mode spectrum of resolutions for activities like conversion. Connecting them up as the camera moves around is tricky, especially when some people pop up from abstract populations and don't quite achieve historical status (or when they do). We've vaguely managed it for certain activities, whiffed it for others. You can see certain small scale raids, for instance, but no razing, because local-view adv mode building destruction isn't straightforward to code.
Quote from: alexsa2015sa
On combat simulation, with upcoming mythgen overhaul, will properly simulating natural weapons be addressed? I refer to mechanic of parrying them being 1) possible and 2) handling such collisions sensibly.
Currently it's not possible to parry (only block or dodge) natural weapons or wrestling moves - and being able to cut someone's grabby fingers would make chokeholds by low-skill wrestlers so much less deadly (I'll assume a high-skill one will just abort the contact instead of getting hurt). With spell effects eventually added into the mix, not being able to parry some Vampiric or Freezing Touch (nevermind an ankle lock!) is going to become way more relevant. Especially if it might turn out to be a Wood-And-Metal-To-Pus Touch which specifically targets your protection and you'd rather be one copper sword short (if even that, in case of a narrow-scope Steel-to-Rust, or Armok forbid Adamantine-to-Coke) than lose that steel breastplate which saves you from becoming a poisoned, blowdart-riddled pincushion.
It also makes bite attacks work really weird in that you can only dodge a tiny coyote, despite such a move being dangerous to suicidal with real-life physics when fighting against larger creature. Killing a beast with a sword/spear lodged between its teeth is such a cliche anyway it should probably work for those with sufficient combat skills.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900716#msg7900716
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900725#msg7900725
alexsa2015sa (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900751#msg7900751
Yeah, I agree it's silly now and also has a slowly-incresing feel of priority as we consider many of the things that are coming. I'm not 100% sure we'll address it on the first magic pass, but as the internal pressure from the game builds, things start to move by necessity.
Post by: Toady One on January 01, 2019, 07:26:50 am
Quote from: JesterHell696
With all the work on religion will it be possible to choose what god your adventurer/s worships and at what "level"?
Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900930#msg7900930
JesterHell696 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900947#msg7900947
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900991#msg7900991
Ah, I don't recall having changed this, but it's certainly a much higher candidate now with the other chargen bits going in this time. Will make a note. Seems like you should even be able to pick organized religion membership (or not) now that that works a little differently than before.
Quote from: Killermartian
Is it possible for two religions to claim the same city as their holy city?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900950#msg7900950
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900991#msg7900991
Killermartian: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7901774#msg7901774
Yes. We some additional group/state-level mechanics to make it really feel that way in a dynamic and responsive way, but the temples and highest priests can be there and there's some passive back-and-forth in the infrastructure and conversion counts and some interpersonal stuff.
Quote from: Beag
1. Seeing as investigating villainous plots will be a new activity in the villain fleshing out update I am wondering how easy or hard it could potentially be to discover said plots. In the examples you have given the player finds out about the plot dealing with local troubles but will it also be possible to learn about plots by just walking around in town ease dropping on people? For example could you learn about a plot being conducted by the civilization's spy master by just hanging out around the castle in the center of town?
2. With religious structures getting more variety will we start seeing monasteries on the side of major roads outside of a civilization site?
3. On a similar note will smaller civilization sites like hamlets and hillocks now have the possibility of including small religious structures like shrines?
4. Currently one special purpose some religious structures can have is being a catacombs, with all the new kinds of religious structures will new kinds of religious structures with special purposes come into being possible? If so can you name a few.
1. FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7902564#msg7902564
Hopefully they will exercise better tradecraft, but yeah, the idea is for there to be some evidence, enough to work with. This is neither 100% planned nor entirely clear. But we can make an effort, as usual.
2/3/4.
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7902569#msg7902569
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7902604#msg7902604
Yeah, though it's all in the wg -> post wg -> adv pipeline, so I haven't settled all questions. Monasteries aren't necessarily on major roads; they are simply placed like other sites as it stands, near to their benefactor's site currently. The little structures should be almost everywhere, though as for what a shrine *is*, well, fortunately that's part of post wg or even adv, so I haven't had to decide yet, heh.
We just have the monasteries and shrines as truly "new" stuff, and they house monks and serve as well-like sites of take-a-stroll worship, respectively. At least I hope to get the adv mode walkers out there doing their bit.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
If we are moving past the bulk raiding/interactive civ screen arc, will you be keeping it synchronized and updated with other features you are working upon for villians onwards?
Figuring that right now we can't actually see rumored areas and sites like kobold caves unless they are revealed in other ways explicitly (answers varying from, using advanced world parameter to cheat viewing the cave, using a hearthsperson adventurer to explore on civ's behalf before embarking, or letting them steal a book to get a rough rumor co-ordinate even though this doesn't reveal the site after)
If its not a little bit too sly in saying, the function of a scout might be needed for the oversight if any villian in fortress mode you want to do anything to disrupt or break the agent network amongst your own dwarves can just hide in a lair or shrine and become untouchable while it spreads all over corrupting your population.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7903546#msg7903546
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7903574#msg7903574
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7903647#msg7903647
As well as I ever do, though I've tried to be more dedicated to the wg -> post wg -> adv -> fort order of implementation within a single release recently (as in like a year or two? I don't recall when that started to become the pattern.) In this particular case, that means that when we get around to adventurers investigating and also being villains, they'll be allowed to use all of the new post wg "army controller" types for companion orders, and also we'd like the fortress to be able to use these as well. If there are odd cases that don't work out, I'll try to note them. Generally, this means your forts and adventurers will have the opportunity to be both craftier and fouler than previously, at your discretion.
Quote from: Mediterraneo
Is any form of sincretism planned soon either in form of outright melding of religions (of the same god or otherwise) or in the form of inclusion of some elements of a religion in others?
I mean, the number of resurrecting sun-gods that have their birthday on the 25 of december in our world is surprising.
And in your example of insignificance from 12/13/18 Current Development feed:QuoteTake these two religions, the Romantic Faith and the Adorable Creed, founded within five years of each other a century ago in the same dwarven fortress by two different prophets of the birth god Zefon. Each has only a single priest, the aged dwarf prophets preaching their own version of Zefon, but they've had impact throughout the area
Wouldn't the (chance of) melding the two prophets efforts have the potential of generating interesting emerging stories?
On the other hand:
Will there be any form of heresy included? Centrifugal forces inside religions, due to doctrinal or power sharing issues or both? If yes, will there be he chance of escalating and composing conflicts in it, getting to a reconciliation or to genocidal violence, or any point in between?
Syncretism in particular is blocked by the structural issues that are going to be handled in the post-Big-Wait laws/customs/property/subgroups/etc. push. The data structures right now cannot handle partial linkages and inheritance(-ish) mechanics, which is exactly what syncretism requires to keep the memory footprint under control. We'll be able to do language drift and hybrid law codes and all sorts of neat stuff as we tackle the structural rewrites. Right now, even the village/bandit/etc. entities gobble up unwarranted amounts of real estate since they can't build themselves from existing data (beyond certain special cases.)
The prophets currently spring up whether they have an existing organized religion or not, so they can both be an evolution of whatever religion they had (though it isn't treated that way), or a new set of beliefs that might directly contradict the beliefs of otherwise-unrelated religions that worship the same deity. None of this is currently detected or utilized, but it is also sitting right there with a note for this release, so we shall see if anything transpires. The various pushes in this release have created a lot of straightforward additions that still somehow run into framework problems down the line, so I have to be careful while also plucking as many of them as I safely can. As you can see for the last months of dev logs, there has been quite a bit of plucking, but there's also restraint; this form of restraint is just invisible when it happens.
Quote from: downwithgdi
With the upcoming (ha) release of the Myths and Magic update, do you have plans to implement better awareness/simulation of body changes for magically altered creatures? As of right now, the only hint of symptoms given from magical effects are on the description screen, and usually hardly do it justice.
For instance, if a creature's body size changes because of a magic effect, can you expect to see a prompt such as 'everything seems to get smaller/larger' in the action log?
This seems like a prudent suggestion, yeah. I don't have a specific plan for handling it yet.
Quote from: falcc
1. Can you expand some more on how vermin-sized creatures/pets work as of now? I know you can move cave spiders into a specific room in fort mode and they'll keep existing there and spinning webs. But does that already happen in adventure mode? Do they unload with the rest of the site, or can you catch cave spiders and start them spinning useless webs in your wooden tower already? Will it be different for the spiders you start adventure mode with if you get that sort of vermin pet? Your important trained spider. What about other sites like catacombs that keep track of the items you've left in them?
2. Is a vermin pet going to attack in any circumstance, on your shoulder or off, and does that mean assassins can now let a poisonous spider into a room if NPCs don't also have pets that can attack such a small creature? Can your pet-caused deaths be tracked to you as a crime, or through syndromes made by pets you own? If you dump a bunch of barrel penetrating vermin into a shop will it be recognized as the new industrial sabotage crime since those items are otherwise tracked for thefts kind of? If a cleaning ability is modded on to a vermin will it activate it, either on the ground or not? What about, say, raising the dead?
I hadn't thought of it until now but vermin are kind of overpowered in adventure mode even before this release if they're actually tracked. But I guess that's why turkeys and chickens are always around. They're very helpful always scratching in the mud. Saving lives. But if someone slipped the monastery cats some beer and they all passed out the Most Holy Sky is going to be getting replaced pretty regularly. Then Sherlock Holmes will show up and notice that the snake literally has your name on it, foiling your perfect plot.
3. Will you be able to milk a purring maggot? I guess there's more work involved in making it so you can actually get purring maggots in the first place, since they don't work right now. But if you got them, the milk is right there. Not to mention the other animals you can presumably milk.
3a. Will we be able to milk our cows? Not as important as the purring maggot, because anybody could run off with that cow, but you're going to be protecting that maggot right on your person most of the time.
4. Since adventurers are getting some medical stuff, would starting with a pet cave spider instead of, say, a sword give them one-up on bandaging themselves? I'm going to need that if I'm scratched to hell from fighting while dizzy after catching all these cave spiders
5. To expand on an old question: since we already have the carpenter's workshop in adventure mode anyway could we start making cages and caging up animals we already own? Could we dedicate an area as a zoo in our sinister bandit fort, since all these nice adventurers will be dropping by to stop us now?
1. They are subject to item rules (sadly for them), but they are also stored as a vermin event if they are freely roaming. I'm not sure how that interacts with save/load; badly I expect. I suspect vermin-sized pet owners should keep them nearby or in a safe spot. You can drop them and pick them up from the ground, and it maintains their pet status, but offloading them is trickier, if they aren't in a container. It would be nice if they could run around the home when you are away, but that'll have to be a specific fix.
2. A pet on the ground... maybe gets to do the sting/bite code? I don't recall the vermin event querying the pet status. Fort players might have observed this (or not, as the case may be.) If so, ha, yeah, it will be a perfect crime currently. I don't think they can use any interactions... they are soulless, as I recollect, which is another sad comment on the current DF cosmology, especially coming from a former rat keeper who certainly recognizes that vermin-sized critters can have different personalities etc., and considering that future additions will surely require souls to be in birds etc., if only so magic users can fly off in them or whatever ends up going on.
3. I haven't added any farming jobs to adv mode yet, though we have a whole arc for that sitting around someplace. We've only very slowly added the elements of a peaceful living sim game to the adv mode side of things, and remain shamefully behind.
4. This seems to be the case, though you might need to wait a long time to get the thread (I really have no idea how the timers carry over, assuming you have to watch your spider locally and can't leave.)
5. Getting closer! I haven't added new designations or reactions, but with pets going, things slowly begin to make more sense until they happen.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerI assume the villain network map in the devblog is a new one we can export from Legends, right?
How extensive is the Legends data for villaneous goings on? Is it all accessible from Legends Mode and exportable to XML? Will we be able to check which corrupt officials brought about the downfall of our fortress in between games, or is some of the Hidden Fun permanently Hidden?
Also, come Fortress mode implementation, will firing of position holders for corrupt behaviour be simply left up to the player to implement, or will authority figures amongst the dorfs decide for us? Can nobles like barons be stripped of their rank by the mountain home in a similar way (in worldgen and within a player fortress)?
Finally, in the devblog you mentioned that:
"Earthhells tried to get her mother the militia commander to join up, but she was having none of it and never trusted her wayward daughter again."
Is that an actual thing (grudges/bad relationship forming due to failed corruption bids) or just a story embellishment?Quote from: bleuxI found it interesting how Aban tried to convince many of her familly members to crime, maybe because her familly mostly got on board, or maybe because Aban received no backlash at all from her familly. Thus, I would like to ask:
Can talking people into crime go wrong in the sense of screwing up relationships? So a friend or familly member may not be talked into crime after a bad conversation, as their relation has turned stall due to it.
Yes, my goal is to only include pictures that are exportable (since the process of producing them might as well be kept around), and that's been true of the logs for this release so far, though I'm not happy with them, as usual.
Hmm, I think it's all historical. Any scheme formed between two or more people is an event. There might be some initial decisions that are only logged in the internal intrigue structure, which, even if it's XML exportable (to-do when w.g. villains are done), only has the latest state. You'll certainly be able to find the fort mode corruption moments, with date stamps to amplify your shame; I imagine my challenge will be to stop the often-psychic engravers from carving them everywhere before the plot is uncovered.
The player is the official will of the fort, so the current plan is to let you handle intra-fort firings, as an expedition leader/mayoral act. Capricious actions or actions from the mountain home are out of your control. We'll be flexible if it's not fun, though. In this case, it's hard to say whether more or less power will be the better road, perhaps even a mixture depending on the act. We haven't added w.g. hammerings for treason yet, when we'll need to decide what that "punishment exempt" tag really means. Can the monarch override that for villainous acts of a certain level? It's not defined as it stands, though clearly you want to be able to do something (official, not just a magma accident.)
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7906624#msg7906624
Yes, relationships have additional variables now (trust, love, fear, loyalty, etc., different from reputation but sometimes uncomfortably similar - WIP as usual), and that includes various negative mixtures beyond "grudge". I tried to embellish the story as little as possible, though I didn't want it to read entirely like a series of legends entries, of course. In this case, the villain's mother still loved her daughter, but the trust was gone. It's a nascent system, but we can now get different interpersonal behaviors from these mixtures. I'm looking forward to where it's going, anyway. Loyalty, trust, love and fear all sound like good story material, he he he, and we've only had really binary versions of them to this point.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Do the guildmasters have generated position titles too? If so, are they based on the type of guild?
They can have I think up to four positions, with different responsibilities, with some variation in number and name, but it's not super interesting. I only did a cursory search for historical examples at this point, and they were mostly boring, variations on dean and alderperson and treasurer and that kind of thing. In the push forward, I've been resistant to link them up to the languages (as that stuff really needs to change), so it remains more or less like the random bandit titles (i.e. lackluster.) But that only makes the potential future brighter by comparison, he he he.
Quote from: Death Dragon
From the latest devlog:
"Lomoth, fond of scheming and idly wishing to become wealthy and powerful ..."
"Aban was an extravagant sort, and given to flights of fancy, so ..."
"... Earthhells was able to play on her father's bond of love as well as his greed."
Will these bits of explanation be listed in the information in legends mode or did you only get them through your debugging tools?
Personalities are still unreadable, just since I've been interface-lazy as usual, though there's a question as to how far legends should go sometimes. Certainly there's a different point to be made about displaying the reasons for specific actions, and I have plans to log more of those before the release. In general, the newer historical events are capable of logging reason/circumstance pairs, and I've been patchy about always including them, but that sort of exposition is kind of the point of the whole exercise so I'll continue to work on it. I'm also working on a new expandable historical event structure so we can optionally dump much more data into a given event without blowing out the memory for the generic event case (where we sometimes have a million sitting around, so every bit is important) or having to store it in a history "collection" like a battle (which possesses too much overarching structure, though it would be a somewhat feasible solution); I haven't selected a first example yet but this is very likely for this release as well, as some of the events aren't displaying enough data now with so many tangential actors possibly involved.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
1. Will sufficiently successful schemers and network-builders sometimes try and weasel their way into positions of official power? For example, the blacksmith in the latest story trying to become the 'royal goldsmith' or something like that, and having direct access to more powerful people, as well as opening doors to further advancement.
2. Assuming that villains will try and hoard artifacts (if their beliefs are appropriate), how will they store them if they don't have some kind of 'lair' (castle, for example)? Again, let's take the blacksmith as an example - if she stole some artifact sword through her network, would she just plop it down in her small house and forget about it?
3. Is any kind of simple economic stratification planned for the villain release? Nothing impressive, as I realize that the bulk of the more complex work is reserved for the law arc, but at least having affluent people have more impressive abodes, clothing, etc. It would somewhat tie into the villain system - i.e. impoverished folks being more susceptible to paltry bribes, villains working their way up into a more ostentatious lifestyle, nobles having nice homes in cities, castles/fortresses being various levels of extravagant based on the prestige and wealth of their holder, etc.
4.There were mentions of there being a setting for the 'bleakness' of the world. I can see how such a setting would affect the magic of the world, but will it also significantly affect the non-magical components of the world as well, such as civilizations being harsher and more xenophobic, people in charge tending to be more ruthless and amoral, natural savagery being higher on average, etc.?
1. This does not currently happen at this exact moment. However, it's on the very top of the list for the coming finalization of w.g. villains.
2. If they don't have some kind of lair, yeah, post w.g. they'll just be in the ridiculous "artifact holder" position which is already a problem. Lairs, or at least part-time hideouts, will probably be popular for this reason among others.
3. PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907166#msg7907166
The only bit I have to add to this is that certain nobles are more inaccessible currently to w.g. villains by virtue of their position. This is something, and not entirely insignificant, but PatrikLundell is correct on the larger point, and also I'm not sure how even my one example is going to survive contact with adv mode without adding entire guard/admission behaviors and etc. etc. It might be one of those things that doesn't make the post e.g. -> adv jump, which we are trying to avoid but which are sometimes inevitable (due to stuff like needing entire guard/admission behaviors.)
4. Yeah, in the working formulation we've been talking about with the three or so sliders, that's how it would be. As with advanced parameters currently though, I suspect very strongly that any "magic" or "tone" or "randomness" sliders will be reserved for quick "now!" world gen, and in actuality, these will not just be multiple subsliders but whole schemes of how raws are loaded and tweaked etc., in the way we've been discussing in some previous posts. The value randomizer currently used for humans and goblins can easily be linked to whatever tone/bleakness setter(s) we have, and something like that seems necessary to obtain the right feel on the highest settings. My working examples for max bleakness have always been universally terrible, anyway; the more settings you flip to extremes, the less varied the output will be (aside from the randomness setter, naturally), but sometimes you want a mood, one way or the other. Though of course, other juxtapositions can also be fun and should be supported to some extent if you go for advanced params. I am hopeful, anyway. It's a complicated step for the project, but that's what the Big Wait is for.
Quote from: Beag
1. Will religious art commissioned for temples just be art depicting the past actions of a deity or any scene involving them?
2. If our bone carving adventurers create figurines depicting a deity would followers of that deity recognize the art in question as religious?
3. Would pieces of art depicting a deity be more valuable trading wise in a holy city dedicated to that deity?
4. With prophets being able to convert large portions of civilizations will religions themselves gain their own sets of values like civilizations have? This could make for some good religious civil wars.
1. In the fort? Like context-sensitive stuff? The DF engravers are notoriously self-centered, but it's been a reasonable suggestion for it to work differently and better.
2/3. I haven't changed this, and as I recall it doesn't matter at all. There are certain value checks vs. image, but I think it's mostly at the civ level, and mostly pretty old code.
4. Yes, the religion always inherits the values of the prophet, and the values of the prophet almost always have one to three significant deviations from their birth civilization's value set (and they might be founding a religion away from home, depending on what all has happened.) I haven't yet created much tension using this fact, but it's there to be used and should also begin to matter organically now that there are more religious actors in the world.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Does the (currently largely aesthetic AFAIK) value system play any role in how likely an NPC is to become a villain? For instance, I'd think a character whose values tend towards extremes might be more likely to engage in villainous behaviour.
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907814#msg7907814
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907834#msg7907834
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907836#msg7907836
PlumpHelmetMan (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907865#msg7907865
On the one hand, values play a key role and are in fact the source of a majority of the villains as it stands, I think. People that value cunning and power in some measure, mainly, as basic intrinsic villains. On the other, I haven't explored more nuanced villainy that might arise when someone is in opposition to the larger cultural values, because that would have to express itself in a more value-specific way than our current villains. That would be cool, of course, it's just a bit more than we can easily support with the current levers we have to pull for most values.
Quote from: Kaltag
Will there ever be such things as a rebellion? Say the citizens of a civ are upset about the way the ruler/high ranking official acts, could the civilians forcibly replace him/her? If so could adveturers join them?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907944#msg7907944
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907946#msg7907946
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907991#msg7907991
Yeah, to add to these observations, I think the main issue is that you can't easily support an insurrection with an eye on replacing the government with a specific person or persons who is not you. If there's an occupation, you can kill the occupying soldiers, and that should lead to a rebellion and the removal of the occupation force (if that's working.) You can also take over a site yourself. But there needs to be a tighter system with more actors in play. Incidentally, this is quite involved with the current material, which is perhaps why the question came up. We'll see soon if villains in w.g. add this to their toolbag (too many options to get to everything!) and if so, it'll push forward to adv/etc. most likely.
Quote from: Death Dragon
I wanna sneak in another question because I saw an interesting documentary about the cistercian monk order some days ago:
The cistercians were (and still kinda are, I guess) a monk order in medieval Europe who started out as very strict, chastely, self-contained monks, but as they expanded more and more, they started producing a surplus of resources, which they then exported and sold for profit, instead of just being self-sufficient. They eventually turned into a profit-oriented megacorporation that spread "franchise" monasteries to almost all of Europe and made so much money that they could fund the Knights Templar, leading to the Second Crusade. (Most of their wealth originates from the fact that they exploited cheap labor, but that's a whole other topic.)
With the current way monastic orders and corporations are implemented, would it be possible for a monastic order to develop itself into something similar to a corporation, or are they two separate types of entities that make use of different types of tools and actions? Mainly, what I'm asking is, could a monastic order become a profitable producer of goods and expand to other locations similar to a corporation?
In the last devlogs I only saw you mention monasteries needing funding by other factions to expand, so I'm not sure if you at all planned for this to be possible. There's something to be said about keeping them as separate, distinct entities. It would be less realistic, but probably more game-like. But I guess it would make sense if for example a monk order who worship the god of wealth would somehow also be a wealth-accruing business.
I know this mostly doesn't matter until we actually have the economy update, but there was a bunch of work done on these kinda entities in the villain update.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908017#msg7908017
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908709#msg7908709
Yeah, therahedwig's point on motivation is the important one. Here, the monks don't engage actively in account building activities, and they aren't generally position holders (if I recollect, being a monk and a position holder in some other entity are mutually exclusive, but I might be wrong.) Now, if we tracked the regular economic activity and impact and resources of subgroups, we could do more here. The merchant companies and guilds are special examples which have small placeholder mechanics to build entity accounts on top of member accounts. Not sure quite what else we'll get as I finish up the villains.
Quote from: GoblinCookie
With the new embezzlement system, what happens if I have a civilization that does not have any money to embezzle? Do they steal imaginary money or does the system switch to embezzling other valuable goods or does no embezzlement happen without actual money?
Everything is imaginary here, as there's just not enough data (whether that's regarding currency or goods or services/acts), so it defaults now to changing an "account" number, which can be leveraged for a few things. Whether that represents currency or favor or power of some kind isn't yet well-defined; it's more freely exchangeable than anything would be in real life right now, a too-permanent too-fungible representation of what was gained by abusing the power of the position (which, depending on the listed responsibilities, is assumed to have power over something valuable, on some axis of value.) Simulation disasters will ensue as more structure is added, but that's all for later. But yeah, if a modded civ has no CURRENCY set, it'll still have corruption issues provided it has corruptible positions.
Quote from: therahedwig
In terms of corruption, are the histfigs already capable of mechanisms like nepotism/cronyism/simony where someone gets into a position due being family/buddies/benefactor of a power holding histfig instead of the usual route? Or does that require a bit more rules about how positions are obtained in the first place?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908046#msg7908046
Yeah, there'll be a bit more, but yeah, we're also just making up loose placeholder rules at this point, so it's important not to overstep.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 01, 2019, 07:58:32 am
Quote
1. They are subject to item rules (sadly for them), but they are also stored as a vermin event if they are freely roaming. I'm not sure how that interacts with save/load; badly I expect. I suspect vermin-sized pet owners should keep them nearby or in a safe spot. You can drop them and pick them up from the ground, and it maintains their pet status, but offloading them is trickier, if they aren't in a container. It would be nice if they could run around the home when you are away, but that'll have to be a specific fix.
Putting them on your shoulder to have a parrot friend to talk to, or eating them as a quick/life-saving snack not withstanding i guess right?
Post by: Death Dragon on January 01, 2019, 10:25:03 am
I love the fact that religions have the values of their prophet. Sounds like it could eventually fuel some good stories. Spreading a religion of the worthlessness of nature into elven territory or some fanatic guy spreading the glorification of war, disguised as a religion to the god of wealth.
Yes. We some additional group/state-level mechanics to make it really feel that way in a dynamic and responsive way, but the temples and highest priests can be there and there's some passive back-and-forth in the infrastructure and conversion counts and some interpersonal stuff.There's a word missing here. I assume it's supposed to mean "We need some additional..."?
Post by: Mordmorgan on January 02, 2019, 05:46:58 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 02, 2019, 05:48:11 am
So are Pews, Prayers Mats, and Priests (to replace or work with the entertainer) coming with this release?
Questions directed at Toady in lime green please :) unless you're just asking rhetorically or to other people in the thread.
Post by: Mordmorgan on January 02, 2019, 06:07:35 am
So are Pews, Prayers Mats, and Priests (to replace or work with the entertainer) coming with this release?
Questions directed at Toady in lime green please :) unless you're just asking rhetorically or to other people in the thread.
Sorry, only my 2nd post in 7 years. Thanks for the help. ;D
Post by: Inarius on January 02, 2019, 10:07:28 am
About magic, how do you plan to manage spell duration between adventure mode and fortress mode ? (i mean, spell which will last days/weeks/hours, for instance)
Post by: KittyTac on January 02, 2019, 10:17:34 am
Thanks for the replies ! Now a new question :Probably time dilation, much like everything else. Say, "Magic Missile" takes 5 seconds to cast in advmode, but it takes a few days on the calendar to cast in fortmode. But since everything else also moves many times slower (including whoever/whatever you are casting the spell on), the delay won't feel overly long or short.
About magic, how do you plan to manage spell duration between adventure mode and fortress mode ? (i mean, spell which will last days/weeks/hours, for instance)
Post by: voliol on January 02, 2019, 01:00:55 pm
I imagine some spells can't be dilated though, you can't have a curse being shortened just because the cursed enters your site, unless you have some anti-curse field set up, of course. Some spells will have to rely on in-game ticks for the duration (as do combat moves, I imagine these are more instantaneous ones), and some on actual in-game time (curses, long rituals, very gradual transformations/corruptions).Thanks for the replies ! Now a new question :Probably time dilation, much like everything else. Say, "Magic Missile" takes 5 seconds to cast in advmode, but it takes a few days on the calendar to cast in fortmode. But since everything else also moves many times slower (including whoever/whatever you are casting the spell on), the delay won't feel overly long or short.
About magic, how do you plan to manage spell duration between adventure mode and fortress mode ? (i mean, spell which will last days/weeks/hours, for instance)
Post by: JesterHell696 on January 02, 2019, 10:55:10 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 03, 2019, 01:22:37 am
Post by: KittyTac on January 03, 2019, 02:04:01 am
So, can players/adventurers join the villain organizations?It's been answered, yes.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 03, 2019, 04:06:05 am
So, can players/adventurers join the villain organizations?They can be villains with the new party system as you'll have access to villainous commands. But remains to be seen if you'll actually be able to join an existing villain's scheme.
-- edit
Unless Kittytac knows better? Quote on that?
Post by: KittyTac on January 03, 2019, 05:59:25 am
You answered it, no further details:So, can players/adventurers join the villain organizations?They can be villains with the new party system as you'll have access to villainous commands. But remains to be seen if you'll actually be able to join an existing villain's scheme.
-- edit
Unless Kittytac knows better? Quote on that?
Will we be able to play villains?Yes. Isn't that in the devblog already? Has been covered in fotf at least. You can give orders to your party members, which can be of the villanous kind. So essentially you can set up a bandit camp and play warlord.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 03, 2019, 11:17:01 am
That's you being a villain yourself.You answered it, no further details:So, can players/adventurers join the villain organizations?They can be villains with the new party system as you'll have access to villainous commands. But remains to be seen if you'll actually be able to join an existing villain's scheme.
-- edit
Unless Kittytac knows better? Quote on that?Will we be able to play villains?Yes. Isn't that in the devblog already? Has been covered in fotf at least. You can give orders to your party members, which can be of the villanous kind. So essentially you can set up a bandit camp and play warlord.
There's nothing about joining another villain's organization yet. As far as I know.
Post by: therahedwig on January 03, 2019, 12:35:02 pm
Thanks for the answers, I hadn't thought about the wells at all! I did ask them what they were up to, and they told me they were out of a stroll. Maybe it's the wanderlust that all Elves have culturally?
Post by: Putnam on January 04, 2019, 02:01:46 am
Thanks for the replies ! Now a new question :Probably time dilation, much like everything else. Say, "Magic Missile" takes 5 seconds to cast in advmode, but it takes a few days on the calendar to cast in fortmode. But since everything else also moves many times slower (including whoever/whatever you are casting the spell on), the delay won't feel overly long or short.
About magic, how do you plan to manage spell duration between adventure mode and fortress mode ? (i mean, spell which will last days/weeks/hours, for instance)
5 seconds in adv mode is actually 6 minutes in fort mode, believe it or not; if you want it to be 5 seconds real time at default FPS values, that's still just under half a day
Post by: Random_Dragon on January 04, 2019, 02:08:06 am
Post by: Putnam on January 04, 2019, 02:15:42 am
Note that time scaling between the two is pretty screwy, and you need a DWF_STRETCH of 72 for things to behave sanely: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10604 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10604)
I continue to insist that the bug here is in how syndromes work in adventure mode, not how the DWF_STRETCH value is too low. Syndromes did not used to work this way, and were much more sane. Your suggested fix is reliant the actual buggy behavior--adventure mode syndromes lasting 72x as long as expected--continuing to exist, even though the bug report itself seems to suggest that you know that said behavior is buggy?
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 04, 2019, 02:40:01 am
Its not hard to modify some of the effects, or even define different types of alcohol with inebriation effects to consume with some tricksy RAW editing. Dwarves spilling out all the details of the lives and being constantly drunk because the DWF_STRETCH can be too long or short, plus top ups in the tavern whenever doesn't bode well for dwarves who invest into skills like liar with slow growth in other areas.
Currently im having to run modded workshops that manually build xp of other skills just to stop dwarves getting rusty on social skills so they don't not use their social skills, (since all workshops give 34xp and dabbling to novice cap is 0-500 it would take 15 long repeats and constant use to ensure that rust doesn't actually stop them from progressing when they are off working not chatting)
- Children born in fortresses & true non-married migrants from your civ's historical sites can have no social skills whatsoever after the first 2 hardcoded waves making this a uphill battle.
Sorry to stake the derail @Putnam & @RandomDragon.
Q: Are you still quite fond of that mini-game concept for animal taming if time allowing, you roll around to having adventurers lock up animals in cages?
Q: Will we see any more mini-games sub-activities that aren't explicitly 'games' per say (dwarvish backgammon in the tavern) but rather game-ified actions for the player's enjoyment?
Later edit:
Quote from: ToadyOne
Quote from: Falcc5. To expand on an old question: since we already have the carpenter's workshop in adventure mode anyway could we start making cages and caging up animals we already own? Could we dedicate an area as a zoo in our sinister bandit fort, since all these nice adventurers will be dropping by to stop us now?
5. Getting closer! I haven't added new designations or reactions, but with pets going, things slowly begin to make more sense until they happen.
My own experience of this is that in theory, you can process vermin and harvest the blood/item specific materials from them and do whatever with the product by using the trap as a container and the creature defined by itself with VERMIN and material arguement.
Successful egg reactions are (like enclosed) and extend to other specific arguements like [USE_BODY_PART] where item type allows.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
However it'd be nice if in the future we could define a creature in a cage container or without, or conjure one up with a CREATURE item tag if im not inferring the end-destination too hard to what workshop reactions might achieve or require.
Post by: pamelrabo on January 04, 2019, 10:57:48 am
Other players have pointed the beautiful work made in Mark J Rohnson's Ultima Ratio Regum maps and buildings. Currently, Dwarf Fortress worldgen creates, let's say, less beautiful buildings.
I wandered around a necromancer tower in Adventure mode to find it's just a square tiny building of two Z-levels and a cellar. I confess I expected, well, a tower. Ruined fortresses are equally similar and not quite impressive in design and layout, specially compared to some players' fortresses posted around. No circular halls, no fancy designs, no throne rooms, offices or separated districts... they don't have the feel of an inhabited city suddenly attacked.
¿Are these locations going to be revisited to improve their looks and layouts? and ¿Is there (going to be) a way to mod worldgen to 'inject' player blueprints into worldgen?
Below there's a link to URR, not playable yet but you can walk around and see the cities and their districts (¿Is ok to add links here? sorry if it isn't). Worth a look if you haven't seen it yet.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 04, 2019, 11:29:49 am
Spoiler: "fresher link" (click to show/hide)
Quote
¿Are these locations going to be revisited to improve their looks and layouts? and ¿Is there (going to be) a way to mod worldgen to 'inject' player blueprints into worldgen?
Sites are being worked out all the while on a 'need-to-change' basis, but the dedicated town re-write will allow a lot more carte'blanche with how this is achieved and the level of detail/perhaps self user input is laid down, since right now Toady puts a lot more into the functionality of a site (realising space for little junk piles/realising food production & storage rather than magicing out of air)
The last site to be touched was the kobold occupied caves, which did a fair amount to improve them, like realising their site traps, animals they use, nesting chamber habits and living accomodations rather than just living in little piles of loot in a grotty cave mainly to accomodate them being profilic artifact theives for the relevant arc.
- Saying that, temples, whatever guilds occupy and merchant warehouses even if a great big ugly grey depot sits in the middle of town full of trading company valuables will be coming for the next releases for villians soon
Post by: Death Dragon on January 04, 2019, 08:24:30 pm
Other players have pointed the beautiful work made in Mark J Rohnson's Ultima Ratio Regum maps and buildings. Currently, Dwarf Fortress worldgen creates, let's say, less beautiful buildings.URR is very pretty indeed, but the reason for that is because the dev put a much greater emphasis on the aesthetics than on actual gameplay systems. Like you said, it hasn't been playable for years and will probably continue to be "just" a pretty world generator for a long time. It's kindy funny because the focus in DF has always been the opposite way, prefering the actual game mechanics over visuals (although the pretty quest log that was added to adventure mode some months ago makes me think Toady does feel like prettying up the game a little more nowadays).
¿Are these locations going to be revisited to improve their looks and layouts?Like Fantastic said above, the short answer is "yes". On the dev notes you can see that even for this updates there are some location reworks planned:
"Includes bandit forts, return of castles, better necromancer towers"
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
¿Is there (going to be) a way to mod worldgen to 'inject' player blueprints into worldgen?I've asked this in one of the last FotFs:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf//index.php?topic=169696.msg7864338#msg7864338
Search for "NPC site" there. Toady's answer was that currently NPC sites aren't in a condition where they could easily be made moddable, but after the map rewrite (part of the magic update), it might at least become feasible. It will depend on how the map rewrite works out. I do hope for moddable NPC sites/ buildings myself, too, because it seems like an area of the game that could easily be outsourced to creative members of the community, so that Toady could spend his valueable programming time on other stuff. Although Toady is still Toady, so he will work on whatever he likes anyway.
Post by: therahedwig on January 05, 2019, 04:28:52 am
For certain buildings, like taverns, temples, I imagine we'd be able to implement maps, and for the more insignificant ones, like houses, we'll proly see more rule based building?
Edit: Looking back on threads on the topic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63054.0), the blocker is Toady being afraid he'll create a raw fileformat that won't be able to handle all the cool stuff.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 05, 2019, 04:07:35 pm
It's not ideal, true, but it's probably all we'll have to work with for the foreseeable future. It will likely be many years to come before the basic mechanics of DF are ironed-out enough that detailed and realistic architecture is prioritized.
Post by: falcc on January 06, 2019, 11:09:47 pm
Not sure if it's the sort of thing I should bug report because it seems more like a design that just predates adventurers being awake in fortress mode at all.
Once the villains are in, succession games can finally act out through play some of their terrible player grudge matches. What are your policies on using Dwarf Fortress as a platform for professional GMing? I am but a simple communist and don't know how all the property licensing of video games or table top games shakes out for people that do it for money. But I write a book for money. Can I make a personalized dwarf fortress succession game a tier on a patreon?
So here's my tragic backstory: for the past three and a half years I've been writing a [now Game of Thrones] sized novel that started out as Dwarf Fortress fanfiction. It started, appropriately enough, as a quick and dirty attempt writing my first full novel (post-college) and it went horribly out of proportion. Aside from a few Urists, which are all placement names, it wouldn't resemble the game right now at all, but you might get to something like it before I finish on my end at this rate.
I have some fans among my friends that I am finally getting into the game. But they'd have a much easier time if I could set up a world for them. That got me thinking: if somebody is supporting my patreon and I'm also GMing a game with DF as the platform, is this opening up some kind of weird bad legal situation for you? I'd hate for Disney to suddenly release a Dwarf Fortress movie and claim to own it because you didn't enforce one instance of profit-making. Such is the bizarre world of US copywrite law.
Post by: Romi on January 08, 2019, 04:39:07 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 08, 2019, 05:05:52 am
I have been away for a long while. Is there any estimate on when the next update is coming (beside soon) and what it will entail? Because for last couple of years there used to be an updated almost every month, but now there was none in half, and if there is a bid updated around the corner i'd rather wait.
Nobody knows for sure, sometime with the next few months, you can follow development from the devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) and the monthly report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172935) but right now we are 44% through (might be updated to 45% or 46%) estimated total development of the game on the Villian Arc, which without distraction of other projects should preclude 'the big wait' (for the complex magic arc estimated a entire year long) or improvement updates after that to finish up the present arc.
In where we've been to where we are going and where we have been see below.
Quote
Raiding Arc (done) <-> Some Improvements/Bugfixes (done) <-> Villian Arc (in development) <-> ((improvements to that) <-> (???) <-> ((beginning of the Magic Arc)) <- 1 year -> rest of the devgoals, likely law & customs
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 08, 2019, 05:54:35 am
"A good few decades from completion of the game" is about as accurate a guess as any.
Post by: Grand Sage on January 08, 2019, 07:46:18 am
Post by: scourge728 on January 08, 2019, 08:11:44 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 08, 2019, 08:47:13 am
As to Romi's question, the answer is, as mentioned, that we don't know (and Toady likely doesn't either, but at least he knows where he's aiming currently, but he usually won't tell, as his aim is rather typical for SW development, so it's better to say nothing and adjust than to disappoint people [some of which take a vague guess as a holy promise, and get rather upset when the guess was off]). I'd recommend starting a fortress now, as that will get you back into it (if you can handle the current stress system, that seems to be quite stressful for a number of players). Also, I'd expect the next release to be a bug fest, as there is going to be a whole pile of new things in it, which typically results in the rapid discovery of a number of serious bugs when the release gets into player hands (those will get fixed reasonably quickly, but that's another week or two [or more] until it's reasonably stable again).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 08, 2019, 09:02:19 am
Hang on... Are you saying there is some sort of rhyme and reason to when we can expect a devblog? I know the FOTF is montly, but i just went and checked for devlogs daily, hoping for an interresting read...It's essentially weekly. Has been for years. Travel and Christmas (and food poisoning) generally cause a break. End of the month is a fotf reply and Bay12 Report so they tend to be combined. It's not a definite thing but that's basically it.
Patrick. I said a year from last July for the current (Villains) update at most. Not the Big Wait. We're not in the Big Wait yet.
I mean, I hope it's shorter, but we seem to have stumbled into a whole unscheduled development Wait right now.
Post by: Inarius on January 08, 2019, 11:05:49 am
--> http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172494.0
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 08, 2019, 02:09:10 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 08, 2019, 04:23:30 pm
@Shonai_Dweller: My comment wasn't actually aimed at your post, but rather FantasticDorf's quote of an unspecified source. I agree it's rather likely Toady is aiming at entering the Big Wait well before a year has passed for the Villain semi-arc.Oh, OK, I see
With post release clean up releases, stress and other things to deal with, I think it'll be close.
Well, it's all good really. Just reinforces that Toady is free to work on the game as he likes and isn't being held to some corporate schedule to rush out a half-finished product he's not happy with.
Post by: Death Dragon on January 08, 2019, 07:09:29 pm
I have been away for a long while. Is there any estimate on when the next update is coming (beside soon) and what it will entail?I'm betting on March-April, depending on how much trouble Toady runs into post-worldgen.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 08, 2019, 10:38:31 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 09, 2019, 12:15:11 am
Fortress Mode coups? Yea? Nay? Maybe?
Post by: Grand Sage on January 09, 2019, 09:08:26 am
Unless of course your talking about gaining control of another site in Fort mode by arranging a coup, that seems plausible.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 09, 2019, 10:01:45 am
Well, gotta ask this one (just regarding the villains release):Shonai, as in a group of dwarves seizing power by occupying the noble positions? I think that seams fairly out of the question, seeing as nobles are basically appointed by the player right now. Maybe there could be done something with the monarch or the baron, but unless its a game-ender, i doubt it.
Fortress Mode coups? Yea? Nay? Maybe?
Unless of course your talking about gaining control of another site in Fort mode by arranging a coup, that seems plausible.
Im not sure, the trouble is only alluded to but taking other disruptive behaviours into consideration might (with no certainty) include lever pulling sabotage. I hope we can villianously plot a casus-belli to attack our own civ's sites under a alluded "good reason" as human civilisations do to consolidate power over the rest of the segmented civ sites or maybe kill the monarch in the hopes of passing the succession of a artifact/position to someone related in our fort and not being found out for doing it.
Saves me the effort of making a suggestion thread i guess.
Post by: therahedwig on January 09, 2019, 12:14:56 pm
A pretty typical coup would be your evil councillor taking over the kingdom in the distance, though, I guess one of the trickiest things right now is to have the player care at all about a change of government, especially as the game just cannot handle loyalty cascades quite well.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 09, 2019, 01:56:13 pm
Is it possible that with coups being a thing, demon rulers of human civs could become common enough that I might finally see one? For instance, it seems like now the possibility is open for a demon to actively plot a human law-giver's downfall rather than simply waiting until a vacancy opens up like they do now.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 09, 2019, 04:28:28 pm
Shonai, as in a group of dwarves seizing power by occupying the noble positions? I think that seams fairly out of the question, seeing as nobles are basically appointed by the player right now. Maybe there could be done something with the monarch or the baron, but unless its a game-ender, i doubt it.It's already planned and been talked about by Toady as a solution for bad management beyond stressed dorfs and tantrums. Just wondering if it was coming with this release.
Unless of course your talking about gaining control of another site in Fort mode by arranging a coup, that seems plausible.
But yeah, sending out agents to topple other site's regeims would be fun too. And of course, villains causing a coup at one of your your holdings could easily be worked on (if the other issues with revolutions at holdings can be figured out).
Post by: Grand Sage on January 09, 2019, 05:47:29 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 09, 2019, 05:55:34 pm
Well, of the two of us, you seam to remember these things best, but IIRC the only issue in insurrections was that they were happening to often and Toady ran out of time to fix it. I dont know the underlying issue of course, so it might not be as simple as i make it sound ;)Yeah, that was pretty much it. Seems easy enough to tweak. Maybe. :)
Post by: Death Dragon on January 09, 2019, 07:16:41 pm
It's already planned and been talked about by Toady as a solution for bad management beyond stressed dorfs and tantrums. Just wondering if it was coming with this release.What would it actually be like? A game over state or just some "so and so has seized the position of mayor"?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 09, 2019, 10:21:10 pm
No idea, it's still in the 'musing' stage as far as I know. I suppose it might be a game over. With magical accidents and eath-shattering events on the way, the opportunity for game-over levels of Fun is increasing, so this might be one. There would have to be early warning signs and ways to make it preventable if addressed early enough of course.It's already planned and been talked about by Toady as a solution for bad management beyond stressed dorfs and tantrums. Just wondering if it was coming with this release.What would it actually be like? A game over state or just some "so and so has seized the position of mayor"?
Post by: Death Dragon on January 10, 2019, 06:07:27 pm
I don't know. It doesn't really sound nice as a game over condition to me. Every other game over state happens when you completely run out of citizens and then lets you reclaim the fort again afterwards, but this one would end with there still being population. Would that then prevent you from reclaiming the fort? If you could just resume control over the fort right afterwards with no real change besides the position of mayor or whatever, then what would really be the point of sending you back to the menu? And like you said there would have to be some warning signs in some way to prevent people from being cought off guard by a sudden coup related game over.No idea, it's still in the 'musing' stage as far as I know. I suppose it might be a game over. With magical accidents and eath-shattering events on the way, the opportunity for game-over levels of Fun is increasing, so this might be one. There would have to be early warning signs and ways to make it preventable if addressed early enough of course.It's already planned and been talked about by Toady as a solution for bad management beyond stressed dorfs and tantrums. Just wondering if it was coming with this release.What would it actually be like? A game over state or just some "so and so has seized the position of mayor"?
Maybe it could be more interesting if you lose access to some features for X years after the coup, like aren't able to appoint any nobles (they get appointed randomly or whatever) and things like that. Maybe the new mayor sends out manager orders you can't cancel or sends out your military squads on random raids. But that would all be extra coding work to implement. :P
Actually, why can the player appoint the mayor position anyway?
Post by: Grand Sage on January 10, 2019, 06:50:46 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 10, 2019, 07:50:41 pm
If you could just resume control over the fort right afterwards with no real change besides the position of mayor or whatever, then what would really be the point of sending you back to the menu?
Same reason why you get booted to the menu when you die as an adventurer, even though you can just create or unretire another adventurer right after. What you were playing as before died, and if you want to keep playing you have to play as a new entity.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 10, 2019, 09:56:38 pm
Quote
I don't know. It doesn't really sound nice as a game over condition to me. Every other game over state happens when you completely run out of citizens and then lets you reclaim the fort again afterwards, but this one would end with there still being population. Would that then prevent you from reclaiming the fort?You would start a new fortress nearby, send a squad to kill the new rabble and take over it again. Or start a revolution there with agents, or kill everyone with an adventurer...
In a persistent world "Game Over" really isn't.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 10, 2019, 10:00:44 pm
Post by: feelotraveller on January 10, 2019, 11:15:15 pm
Or maybe a coup could end up with the game informing you that a different group has taken over the fortress with the implications for military/nobles/etc.
Personally I reckon it would be pretty cool if a coup was an event where the player gets locked out of control while the 'civil' war plays out. Only being able to issue orders again once one side or the other comes out victorious. But that might not be to everyone's taste.
Post by: eerr on January 11, 2019, 01:52:43 am
So there have been attempts, in the past, to host Dwarf Fortress on a server.
In other words, one server, and many clients. One of which is the current player.
Would you ever support multiplayer of this kind?
It's one of those things, that would revolutionize the making of Dwarf Fortresses.
But on the other hand it could be considered heavy bloat,be too complex to integrate,
or force the building of the client around a specific structure, slowing dev time.
Moreover, abstraction of the interface, if thorough enough, would also allow this.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 11, 2019, 03:45:53 am
You should probably define what you mean to get a more concrete answer. Dwarf Fortress already supports multiplayer through making save files sharable and having it's own dedicated file server.So there have been attempts, in the past, to host Dwarf Fortress on a server.
In other words, one server, and many clients. One of which is the current player.
Would you ever support multiplayer of this kind?
It's one of those things, that would revolutionize the making of Dwarf Fortresses.
But on the other hand it could be considered heavy bloat,be too complex to integrate,
or force the building of the client around a specific structure, slowing dev time.
Moreover, abstraction of the interface, if thorough enough, would also allow this.
And of course, there are lots of interpretations of what multi-player DF is/should be. Beyond the current version of sharing fortresses, some want to see a game variation involving many people try to manage a single site together (seems a bit odd to me, but I guess it's fun). Or there's actually having Dwarf Fortress as a multiplayer game with many people playing in one world. Something like Paradox Interactive does with games like Crusader Kings II. That would be much further down the road, but might actually be less "extra" work as the various parts of the simulation integrate more smoothly with each other.
Post by: Inarius on January 11, 2019, 01:55:33 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 11, 2019, 01:57:52 pm
Post by: Inarius on January 11, 2019, 04:55:01 pm
Post by: Bumber on January 11, 2019, 06:34:28 pm
Hate to be blunt, but making adventure mode into an MMORPG would ruin it for me utterly. Hope it never happens.It's not like you'd be forced to play with other players.
That said, there are significant challenges to getting Adv Mode to work with multiple players. It was designed for one creature to be controlled at a time, in only one location.
Warmist's multiplayer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165168.0) is limited to a single map in arena mode, and the NPC AI seizes control once an enemy is spotted. (Actually, I just got an idea about possibly loading parts of other maps onto a large retired fortress. We'll see how the upcoming adv party system affects control.)
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 11, 2019, 08:19:37 pm
And yeah the difficulties adventure mode mechanics present for a multiplayer scenario were my other main concern.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 12, 2019, 03:50:00 am
I definitely hope that Toady never wastes efforts on multi player (as I think the single player work will never be completed anyway).
I'm perfectly fine with community efforts trying to bend vanilla DF into various forms of multi player, as I'll just ignore them and they won't harm DF itself.
Post by: Rubik on January 14, 2019, 07:53:57 pm
Now that we are gonna have adventure mode parties and swapping between members, what's stoping the players from creation sucession games, but with adventurers?
You know, Someone decides to make a game, people from the forums designs the players, and equips them. Then someone plays a season(three in-game months, can be swapped to just one month) with his persona, passes the save to the next guy, who'll play another season with his
To make it NOT a snorefest, the community that hears the tales of travel and war from the players give them objectives at random each turn to achieve(random is prefered so one particular player doesnt get bombarded with tasks, but it's up to the members of each game), but leaving up to the player how to achieve them
You are not allowed to swap in your turn, unless it's completely clear you are gonna die, because you lose then. If you lose, obviously, you are out of the wheel play, but the others can keep playing
Aside from that general rule, the members of each play can make handicaps or specific rules (no eating plump helmets, kill atleast a person each three days) you know stuff like that
Again, only something that I just thought, I won't comment on it anymore
Post by: iceball3 on January 14, 2019, 09:35:14 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 14, 2019, 09:58:29 pm
Hey Toady, concerning the ever shifting balance of stress mechanics, have you considered or made use of simulative models to identify whether dwarven stress can be managed at all, or is too easily managed given various time (time spent walking, sleeping, entertaining, etc), and quality of life (death of loved ones, isolation or existence of loved ones, wealth, fed levels, etc) budgets? If not, how do you establish estimates of whether dwarves can or shouldnt be able to furnish their unmet needs based on the situation?Don't forget that Toady wouldn't have taken into account the bugs (relationship forming not working as expected, stress still stacking despite thinking that was addressed) since if he knew about them they wouldn't exist, and not yet implemented features (adventurers need for romance, family, etc, dorfs need to wander/be with off site family without there being currently a way to leave sites voluntarily yet).
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 17, 2019, 12:09:46 pm
It's still yet a but a glimmer in your eye as we can all tell and have been told, but will the fortress's (in fortress mode) own presence as a plot actor to hire a assassin on payroll, could fufill a purpose of 'evening the field' versus very strong and at the moment difficult to take down opponents like immortal tacticians and supernaturally strong defenders? (elves are huge tactics cheaters conquering wide swathes of land and usually beating on humans to extinction with with tactic boosted beasts, and demons really tank the worst of fortress lead tower raids making them very difficult to do unless they meet a accidental demise to pass along leadership) - hopefully without presuming too much with how, but it felt fair to ask since its on development goals.
Bit less of a opened up but still i guess complex question, How much different would deliberately targeting a historical individual be compared to targeting a historical beast/megabeast in terms of a monster hunter versus what the coming assassins will do?, or is it too premature a question with everything still being built up with w.g to comment?
I just saw the parallels in agency that pushing a wad of cash into a monster hunter's (or adventurer within perspective of being that NPC) palm to kill and bring back the corpse or assure a beast is dead would be more useful than having them endlessly wandering our caverns looking for famous monsters (usally made when they as fodder fall prey to something mundane) to come to them. But that's just my opinion.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 17, 2019, 01:24:48 pm
Post by: therahedwig on January 17, 2019, 01:25:15 pm
I am getting a little worried we'll see a ton of goblin kings everywhere due the combo of eternal life+villain personalities. Do you have any kind of mechanisms in mind to avoid every single ruler being an immortal scumbag?
Also, future DF games will proly have a ton more kids if Nushrat's 7 children are any indication. Kinda cool a figure can really specialize in cloak and dagger though.
EDIT:
I just realized that the immortal scumbag kings would actually fit in a dystopian world. Will the mythgen happy-vs-terrible tone slider only affect the types of things and creatures in the world or do you think it might also affect how game mechanics operate?
Post by: Death Dragon on January 17, 2019, 01:26:18 pm
but will the fortress's (in fortress mode) own presence as a plot actor to hire a assassin on payroll, could fufill a purpose of 'evening the field' versus very strong and at the moment difficult to take down opponents like immortal tacticians and supernaturally strong defenders?I'm guessing we won't be able to hire assassins in fort mode as long as there's no post worldgen economy, but military squads sent out on assassination missions will hopefully be able to do that.
I was also wondering about assassinations:
Will we be able to target ANY historical figure in the world with assassinations/ kidnappings or are we limited to the ones who hold some kind of position like site ruler or the dean of the cheesemaker's guild? I was wondering what the interface for that menu would have to look like to not be too overwhelming.
Some other random questions:
Adjacent sites of the same civilisation can sometimes get into border disputes which lead to arguments and possibly armed combat. Do the new friendship/ rivalry/ villainy systems in some way interact with border disputes or is there no change to them?
In the roguelike celebration talk you gave the example of a necromancer who wants to take revenge on the town that initially banished him and who is able to start a war between humans and elves by sending someone to influence the human law giver. Is this all possible by now or is there still something missing for this to be possible?
Oh, just thought of another one because of the latest devlog:
Do you plan on making NPC assassin do their deeds secretly in a fort mode fort, like vampires do? What I mean is, will they be able to kill someone and leave the fort, passing by other dwarves without anyone noticing that they are a/ were the murderer?
It would be a bummer if they automatically just turned into "invader" status after the murder because that would mean no assassin would ever leave a player fort alive, like the guys who try to steal artifacts.
Post by: Inarius on January 17, 2019, 01:46:54 pm
"Snang still carries it."
Does this mean that, now, artifact armors or weapons are actually used and "seen" by people, and considered as armors or weapons, and not just "treasures to be stored/displayed" ?
Post by: therahedwig on January 17, 2019, 02:05:48 pm
Post by: Inarius on January 17, 2019, 02:29:56 pm
I asked about this on the 25th November 2017, Toady replied
"It certainly makes sense that items should be used for their purpose. I think we've been slow to do this partially because magic had been in and out of the game early on, and magical powers for many artifacts are now near-term, so it didn't make sense to mess with it this time either. But they shouldn't be leaving all these objects on pedestals."
So, well, let's wait his reply.
Post by: Grand Sage on January 17, 2019, 07:15:16 pm
I really like how your writhing up the story as you read it, it was very funny. However, the devlog stirred up a couple of questions:
It seems all major position holders (kings, druids ect.) are also villains. Is this intended behaviour or just the effect of something, that isn't implemented yet, and will it stay that way in the release?
Are villains and there groups going to fight about there respective agents ect, or can any given person work for/be extorted by any given number of criminal organizations? in other words, will there be "turf wars" in any sense of the word?
I am not sure if this was asked before, but how many of these new noble positions will we see/be able to appoint in Fort mode?
thx in advance, and thx for an awesome devlog!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 17, 2019, 10:11:41 pm
Great to hear that Zach is through his surgery!The noble General Mafol wasn't a villain. The idea is that all position holders (from King to Bookkeeper) may or may not be corruptible (and are increasingly less accessible the higher ranked that they are). So, no, not all leaders will be villains. But a lot might, especially ones with naturally villaneous traits (like a lot of goblins, possibly?). That's why so many more positions were made, to ensure a good pool of possible network members.
I really like how your writhing up the story as you read it, it was very funny. However, the devlog stirred up a couple of questions:
It seems all major position holders (kings, druids ect.) are also villains. Is this intended behaviour or just the effect of something, that isn't implemented yet, and will it stay that way in the release?
thx in advance, and thx for an awesome devlog!
Of course, I guess there's a good chance that the traits which make a person likely to become a leader may well be quite similar to those that lead you down the road to the dark side. Power corrupts n' all that...
Post by: Death Dragon on January 18, 2019, 10:35:00 am
I am not sure if this was asked before, but how many of these new noble positions will we see/be able to appoint in Fort mode?Don't know for sure yet, but I don't think the new positions will be player appointed. They are all related to the civ itself or to new entities like religions, guilds, etc.
Though hopefully when the king arrives at your fort post-villain update, they'll bring all their new followers with them, like royal justicar, keeper of seals, cup bearer, etc.
Post by: Beag on January 18, 2019, 01:39:07 pm
2. In the recent story you posted a lot of land holding nobles were mentioned. Will the land they hold actually exist in that we could visit it? Also how big and how small a parcel of land could a noble hold? Would it have to be at least as big as a site or could they hold a subsection of land within a site?
3. Another thing mentioned in your recent story was assassins. Could our adventurers take up assassination quests in the coming update and like wise could our adventurers hire assassins to kill people? It was stated a while ago that our adventurers could hire their own agents.
4. Finally if our adventurers found a site will they be able to grant landed titles to their subjects?
Post by: Grand Sage on January 19, 2019, 11:38:17 am
2. In the recent story you posted a lot of land holding nobles were mentioned. Will the land they hold actually exist in that we could visit it? Also how big and how small a parcel of land could a noble hold? Would it have to be at least as big as a site or could they hold a subsection of land within a site?
I dont think Toady was refering to any new title there. By "landholder" he simply ment barons, counts and dukes (or in this case a baroness). So yes, in a way you can visit there land, since they are barons of a certain place.
Post by: therahedwig on January 19, 2019, 02:04:22 pm
Post by: Grand Sage on January 19, 2019, 02:36:32 pm
Post by: Verdant_Squire on January 19, 2019, 07:15:58 pm
1. Will creatures always necessarily hold grudges against their former partners, or is it possible for a relationship to simply "not work out" with no ill-will between either person involved? What causes someone to end a relationship, aside from unwillingness to commit?
2a. Should a successful usurper lack the wisdom to properly dispose of the former monarch and their supporters, is it possible for said ex-monarch to orchestrate their own "counter coup" to take back power? If the ex-monarch dies before they can attempt to take back the throne, but still has kids kicking around, would those kids recognize their status as former heirs, and plot to reclaim their rightful throne?
2b. As an extension of the previous question, how will already existing claims interact with the new villain system? Would current position holders be able to recognize potential claimants as a threat, and dispose of them via assassins?
2c. Will we see the children of ruling monarchs engage in the historically time honored tradition of sibling rivarly over who gets to be the heir? Would the degree to which this occurs be affected by how much the civ in question values family / power?
3. Will villains attempt to place people other than themselves in civ ruler positions? For example, could a demon or rival civ leader try to position a more easily influenced or cowardly character as the leader of a neighboring civ? If so, is it necessary for said character to already be caught up in the web, or could this happen without their knowledge of the strings being pulled?
4. What happens if a coup attempt doesn't quite go the way the plotters were hoping?
5. What exactly happens if the monarch of a civ is the primary propagator of a villain network? Would there basically be no consequences whatsoever to be uncovered in that situation? [Who the heck is gonna punish you when you're already at the top of the chain?]
6. Does the abstracted "personal account" manifest in the world in any way, even if said manifestations are entirely arbitrary? IE: The hearthpeople of a rich lord being better equipped in general?
And a few questions about the upcoming myth and magic arc:
7. We're going to be getting procedural civilized critters - Does this mean that we'll be seeing new types of procedurally generated populated sites? Or are generated creatures just gonna piggyback off of the existing types of sites for the first pass?
8. On the higher settings for randomness, is it possible for worlds to come out of world gen with more than one moon, or perhaps multiple suns? Or maybe no sun and/or no moon? Will these effect the daylight or seasonal cycle on the world? IE: pitch black nights on a world with no moon, different types or cycles of day for worlds with multiple suns, ect.
That should be it. I know some of these may have been asked before / already, so if anyone can point those answers out, I would greatly appreciate it!
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 20, 2019, 06:12:40 am
Spoiler: "Question 1" (click to show/hide)
I don't remember the mechanics of Toady discussing this, so im not sure where you got that data rather than a educated guess. There will be more relationship types (war-buddies, scholar buddies) and divorces in the new release (offsite re-marriage too) but im not sure on the precise detail (any links or quotes would help)
Spoiler: "Question 2b" (click to show/hide)
Or identify a artifact that either belongs to them through a link, Toady can answer more fluently but i thought id just tag onto this question to explain that it would probaly be feasible if proper artifact claims were put in since title-related pre-aquisition of artifacts isnt in at the moment, rather than the personal links dwarves have with a artifact dedicated to a holy man, certain place, or family ancestor/lineage to act on.
Spoiler: "Question 2c" (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Question 3" (click to show/hide)
Id be a bit dissapointed to not expect outside forces to try and meddle with our present civilization of dwarves by proxy but dwarven civilizations are well guarded and lawful, if exploitably greedy.
Spoiler: "Question 4" (click to show/hide)
Quote
Spoiler: "Image for clarification's sake" (click to show/hide)
Refer to what the civilization has in treason crime ethics and have the hammerer (executioner) on speed dial if nessecary.
Spoiler: "Question 5" (click to show/hide)
Normally refer to what the entity ethics and position tokens will allow with [PUNISHMENT_EXEMPT], Toady might put in a overriding workaround (or not), like deposing and incarcerating the king, finding a new monarch then trialling and putting to the hammerer the old monarch at the injunction of doing criminal activities against the current or at expense how vunerable they are stripped of title.
Spoiler: "Question 6" (click to show/hide)
Nobody's rushing too fast to re-impliment economy, it'll exist from Toady's comments but not in a tangible way in fortress mode, rarely being demonstrated usually.
At the moment, armor and quality sorting is done by [PRECEDENCE] position value which is why the general's troops from off-map always arrive with the best skills and if they were in uniform, nice probably steel gear, and why siegers (being 190 precedence captains as a single type of core unit) are all kind of crummy in equipment in copper and sometimes iron. Generals are 50 precedence, and hence everyone travelling with them in squad share the benefit. Precedence 1 monarchs also tend to wear masterwork clothes in adventuremode.
Nobody's been fighting real actual trained troops for years unless a fresh recruit gains experience through partaking battles naturally (somehow surviving). There's no way to change this without damaging balance as captains are hardcoded and can't be duplicated for 'ranks' of soldiers varying in equipment and ability.
- A fun tip is that all people present on the lists for assigning furniture are actually assigned per the precedence that they presently rank, so you can muncipally see everyone who's important near the top of the list.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 20, 2019, 04:58:21 pm
That's you being a villain yourself.You answered it, no further details:So, can players/adventurers join the villain organizations?They can be villains with the new party system as you'll have access to villainous commands. But remains to be seen if you'll actually be able to join an existing villain's scheme.
-- edit
Unless Kittytac knows better? Quote on that?Will we be able to play villains?Yes. Isn't that in the devblog already? Has been covered in fotf at least. You can give orders to your party members, which can be of the villanous kind. So essentially you can set up a bandit camp and play warlord.
There's nothing about joining another villain's organization yet. As far as I know.
Thanks Shonai, yeah I was wondering if you could join an existing villains organization and actually participate. Perhaps I should have made my question more clear.
Also sorry I haven’t been active in the wiki or the forums recently we never finished updating those adventurer wiki pages :p
I’ll reword this:
1. Will player adventurers be able to join an existing villains organization and actually participate
2. Are the assassin agreements available to player adventurers in adventure mode? I’ve always wanted to play as a proper assassin. And the most recent dev log made me excited.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 20, 2019, 05:06:06 pm
"Snang still carries it."
Does this mean that, now, artifact armors or weapons are actually used and "seen" by people, and considered as armors or weapons, and not just "treasures to be stored/displayed" ?
In adventure mode I have seen beasts such as cyclops using artifact weapons they found and got from killing adventurers, so yes. There’s also the artifact retrieval missions they can be sent on which would likely result in them using the artifacts if you encounter them. (AI adventurers)
Also they are “seen” this has been the case since the recent artifact release.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 20, 2019, 05:09:38 pm
Do they not currently get the title "lord" in Adv. mode? I thought they did, since they can appoint hearhpersons.Lords are a completely different type of Noble from a Baron. Barons are dwarven positions. The humans have lords and such.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 20, 2019, 05:33:28 pm
Hang on... Are you saying there is some sort of rhyme and reason to when we can expect a devblog? I know the FOTF is montly, but i just went and checked for devlogs daily, hoping for an interresting read...
He tends to put out a new devlog every 8 days. Notice the last one was the 16th and before that was the 8th then the 1st (fotf) then on the 24th was the one before that.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 20, 2019, 06:27:08 pm
Post by: Grand Sage on January 21, 2019, 08:10:40 pm
Do they not currently get the title "lord" in Adv. mode? I thought they did, since they can appoint hearhpersons.Lords are a completely different type of Noble from a Baron. Barons are dwarven positions. The humans have lords and such.
And by extension, your little adventurer sites are proly not making you landholder because the civ entity is proly not smart enough to understand how land ownership works because... it is a type of resource and thus related to economy and law/property/customs. That said it'll be interesting to see when that comes in. Getting assassins because a Baron has decided your site is where they want to chuck down their castle.
I was answering the question about adv. sites making you a landholder. since "lord" is the human landholder title, that seemed relevant.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 22, 2019, 03:19:43 am
Easy way to pick out divided civs is that they'll usually have a different symbol to the rest of the civ but be classed within it (like how your civ varies compared to the mountainhome) im not sure what causes this but typically it happens when the demon lord is deposed but not nessecarily killed because the capital is routed, and then within the spate of time it takes for them to reclaim goblins start forging their own groups through force of arguement.
Post by: Nopenope on January 22, 2019, 08:49:28 am
Since you are working along the usual worldgen -> post w.g. -> adventure -> fortress cycle, which ones of the following features are more likely than not to make it to fortress mode (I'm basing myself off your devlogs since the last release):
1. Advanced romance (divorces, rejections, triangles, jealousy, simultaneous partnerships, remarriages, children outside wedding, etc)
2. Dwarven mounts
3. Visitor agents that are part of villain networks, and/or villain citizens
4. Plots to obtain positions (mayor, baron, etc.) or artifacts
5. Assassinations, kidnapping, theft, insurrection, tips for invasion as a result of these plots
6. "Intrigue skill" or loyalty being relevant and/or trainable
7. Sending agents of your own, capturing or killing the villain offsite
8. False identities for agents, villains and other non-vampire migrants/visitors
9. Advanced friendships (people becoming war buddies or childhood friends in your fort, or war buddies/childhood friends arriving together as migrants, etc)
10. Advanced crimes (corruption, embezzling, blackmailing, sabotage)
11. Athletic competitions
12. Appointable new positions (keeper of the seal, royal justiciar, master of beasts, etc.)
13. Foreign trading outposts, and/or being able to send trading outposts offsite
14. Prophets and/or priests arising from temples or arriving as visitors
15. Religion conversion, priesthood positions/occupations
16. Monastic orders
EDIT: to clarify, I'm asking about whether they'll be implemented in fort mode as an actual gameplay element, and in this upcoming release (or at least in subsequent passes, before the big wait, in one of the minor incremental/bugfix ones)
Post by: therahedwig on January 22, 2019, 09:00:39 am
5 is explicitely the point of this devarc. 8 Already exists.
9. I don't think we'll see the reason for friendships forming on the relationship screen, so the only thing that'll happen is that people show up as friends to begin with when they come to your fort, much like how families work. (Though it'd be nice to have it be discoverable somehow during fort mode play)
13 to 16 are very likely not to show up, as they're the definite bloat of this worldgen stuff :p
rest: No idea :p
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 22, 2019, 10:45:18 am
11 was in a lot longer and is unlikely to be further developed(they're part of worldgen festivals), 2 was asked about already and that it needed a better handling of mounts first.
5 is explicitely the point of this devarc. 8 Already exists.
9. I don't think we'll see the reason for friendships forming on the relationship screen, so the only thing that'll happen is that people show up as friends to begin with when they come to your fort, much like how families work. (Though it'd be nice to have it be discoverable somehow during fort mode play)
13 to 16 are very likely not to show up, as they're the definite bloat of this worldgen stuff :p
rest: No idea :p
Actually 13 and 11 are planned. In fact tarn specifically said he wants adventurers to be able to participate at least a bit in the festivals.
Monastic orders obviously would improve adventure mode and fort mode. And I think Tarn has mentioned it before and how it would be neat. But not specifically planned.(though they are already partially there, as we have wandering monks and such and a similar question has been asked already and answered by tarn)
Here’s his answer btw: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908715;topicseen#msg7908715
Quote
Yeah, therahedwig's point on motivation is the important one. Here, the monks don't engage actively in account building activities, and they aren't generally position holders (if I recollect, being a monk and a position holder in some other entity are mutually exclusive, but I might be wrong.) Now, if we tracked the regular economic activity and impact and resources of subgroups, we could do more here. The merchant companies and guilds are special examples which have small placeholder mechanics to build entity accounts on top of member accounts. Not sure quite what else we'll get as I finish up the villains.
13 especially is planned. He wants you to be able to send trade carts off site. And for adventurers to be able to have their own trade carts/hired merchants/able to be a guard for them. He talks about this in the DF talks. I don’t know how they would be a bloat in world gen since they would actually be a part of history gen and be in play which are completely separate from world gen. Bloat in world gen would be like adding erosion.
Post by: Death Dragon on January 22, 2019, 01:15:31 pm
9. Advanced friendships (people becoming war buddies or childhood friends in your fort, or war buddies/childhood friends arriving together as migrants, etc)I don't think they actually are "advanced". It's more the opposite, the childhood friend/ war buddy stuff are basic conditions that spawn friendships during world gen to create more links between people for villains to abuse. In fort mode friendships can come up potentially all the time, not just in those predefined situations. I guess he could make friendships that are formed between children and between squad members show up as "childhood friend"/ "war buddy" in the relationship screen, but that sounds like a bunch of extra coding for a tiny amount of extra flavor though.
But Toady did say that he was gonna look at fort mode friendships after the villain update.
Post by: therahedwig on January 22, 2019, 03:48:21 pm
Though, thinking it through, we'd see expanded religion in the myth arc anyway for obvious reasons.
Post by: Grand Sage on January 22, 2019, 07:30:45 pm
Post by: Hapchazzard on January 22, 2019, 09:51:26 pm
1. I don't imagine it makes sense for bandit forts to have fine granite walls, barring edge scenarios. Will palisades and other such ramshackle fortifications possibly be making an appearance, and see utilization at other types of sites, too? (villages, minor forts, watchtowers, etc)
2. Are there plans for the possibility of 'overlapping sites' - for example, a bandit hideout at the mouth of a cave or the entry levels of a ruin, cities built atop the remains of much older settlements, etc. in the somewhat foreseeable future? Is this something that the update will try and tackle, or is it far too difficult in scope to shoehorn into the update?
3. Was there some specific reason for castles being removed in the first place? (perhaps someone that's been around here longer than me might also have the answer to that question)
4. What kind of size variety do you anticipate for castles?
5. Similarly, do you have any ballparks as to how frequent you want castles to be in a typical human civilization? Having just 3-4 castles in an average civilization would seem a bit odd, seeing as generic-western-fantasy-kingdoms tend to be littered with castles, and this applies to real-life countries, too (those that built them, at least).
Now, my myth & magic questions:
1. Will there be some kind of sanity system beyond the current strange moods, eventually?
2. Are there plans to make 'forbidden knowledge' a thing? As in, knowledge that has an inherent mental effect on anyone who discovers it and doesn't have a strong enough willpower to resist it's effects. Knowledge not meant for mortal minds causing mental degradation, despair, existential dread, unnatural obsessions, etc. is a fairly common trope in fantasy. If this is in the cards, do you have any ideas on how it would be determined what snippets of knowledge are significant enough to warrant mental effects?
3. Speaking of strange moods - what is the long-term plan for them? Will the eventually be scrapped with an entirely different system?
4. Will the player somehow be conveyed the mundaneness of the magic their character is seeing? i.e. being conveyed that the fireball spell the enemy mage is using is very common and run-of-the-mill, versus it being some extremely strange, novel spell that they've never even thought to be possible up until now?
5. Will NPCs be able to react in various ways to magic, depending on their own experience and knowledge of the arcane arts? I can see something like this being especially interesting in low-magic worlds. Stuff like:
-Peasants/townfolk that have never seen magic crowding around someone doing sorcery in public in fascination, or alternatively running away in terror
-Being able to prove your magical capabilities to skeptical individuals, with a wide range of reactions depending on the skeptics' personality
-Authority figures receiving rumors of powerful enough (again, depending on the level of magic in the world) mages, and potentially sending emissaries to offer employment
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 22, 2019, 09:54:04 pm
from readng the devlog, im fairly sure that 14 and 15 are already done or partially done, and will be in the next update.Prophets actually already come to your taverns as visitors, so that bit at least is done.
Religious conversion isn't likely before Mythgen though, I imagine. Remember nothing has been done in Fortress mode yet. So while you may get a migrant/visitor who was converted to a religion once someplace else, that's different from an actual mechanic in which a priest approaches dorfs in a player tavern and converts them through whatever means they have. And whatever reactions dorfs may have to such attempts.
Quote
1. Right now, villains seem to be largely of the "conniving schemer" varietyHapchazzard, did you forget to write your question here?
Post by: Hapchazzard on January 23, 2019, 11:35:50 am
from readng the devlog, im fairly sure that 14 and 15 are already done or partially done, and will be in the next update.Prophets actually already come to your taverns as visitors, so that bit at least is done.
Religious conversion isn't likely before Mythgen though, I imagine. Remember nothing has been done in Fortress mode yet. So while you may get a migrant/visitor who was converted to a religion once someplace else, that's different from an actual mechanic in which a priest approaches dorfs in a player tavern and converts them through whatever means they have. And whatever reactions dorfs may have to such attempts.Quote1. Right now, villains seem to be largely of the "conniving schemer" varietyHapchazzard, did you forget to write your question here?
Oh yeah, that's a bit embarrassing. I've kind of realized the answer to my own question as I was writing it, but then went on to write my other questions and forgot to delete the initial unfinished question. Thanks for the heads-up!
Post by: Real_bang on January 24, 2019, 05:50:57 am
Post by: therahedwig on January 24, 2019, 11:19:22 am
On the other hand, depending on how much justice is fleshed out you might just instead capture bandits and bring them to a jail?
Do you think we'll see adventure mode jails to go with our villains and the interrogation of them? Like, I can understand there's just too little to do the full range of crime and punishment, but I am currently having a vision of bringing a villain to a law enforcer, and then the law enforcer go 'cool, yes we were looking for this guy' and then lets the villain go because law enforcer is an adventure mode npc who doesn't know what to do with law breakers.
BTW: Guys, the devpage got updated. 'Assassinations of position-holders' is now purple ;)
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 24, 2019, 12:42:06 pm
On the other hand, depending on how much justice is fleshed out you might just instead capture bandits and bring them to a jail?
BTW: Guys, the devpage got updated. 'Assassinations of position-holders' is now purple ;)
Though i haven't seen any form of bandit/hostile small group related behaviour since hyena-men livestock raids in version 30. therabouts nor do i make a compulsive habit of settling too close to bandit egible civs, being a bandit themselves isn't nessecarily a crime, and at present you can't forcibly arrest people who haven't been reported to the authorities unless you catch them in other ways like traps.
Your question preceeding overcoming these obstacles, and yes that dev-goal update is very nice, looking foward to digging through the upcoming content when it lands.
Post by: Aid on January 24, 2019, 04:10:56 pm
and so my questions are:
1.1 Will in the game, pantheon of the gods united from the very beginning of the generation of the world, or united by the faith of people?
1.2. Will the gods place where they are most of the time, such as the Ancient Greek in Olympia?
1.3. Can the gods have a relationship and can they have children?
1.4. May be the main gods in their pantheon of gods, for example Zeus in Olympus, may be villains plans for the power struggle?
1.5 Can there be wars between the pantheons. Will people come to war for their faith, on the contrary, God will enter into a war for those who believe in him, this will give a little balance because demons in goblins can kill a hundred for the battle?
2. You will test all updates with a magical release?
3. Is it possible to do something like gladiatorial battles to death, or just for training. Or to make a different type in different worlds or kingdoms as a tournament every 5 years and with the reward for determining the best warrior, and in the other is generated so that once a year, random creatures in the worl are battling to death, here's a lot to come up with the release of magical releases. Especially if they could have been an adventurer
I hope someone understands my Google Translate
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 24, 2019, 04:37:31 pm
Quote
Though i haven't seen any form of bandit/hostile small group related behaviour since hyena-men livestock raids in version 30. therabouts nor do i make a compulsive habit of settling too close to bandit egible civs, being a bandit themselves isn't nessecarily a crime, and at present you can't forcibly arrest people who haven't been reported to the authorities unless you catch them in other ways like traps.The question was about the quests you get in Adventurer to clear out bandit camps. It may not be a crime, but it is an order. One which can't be fulfilled right now. Would need to add use of restraints (tie them to a horse?) for a start.
Well, we'll see what bugs Toady was talking about next week, I guess.
Post by: Immortal-D on January 24, 2019, 06:20:43 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 24, 2019, 07:47:12 pm
With bandits receiving bandit forts and bugs being fixed will we be able to finally complete quests on destroying bandit camps? Same goes to criminals in town catacombs
I don’t recall having issues with killing bandits for agreements...?
To be fair I haven’t had a agreement like that since several versions ago.
Post by: Nopenope on January 25, 2019, 11:14:28 am
(for what it's worth, the wiki states that it is unclear what they actually do)
Are "giant sleeping monsters that are so massive they act as map features", or severed body parts thereof ("The left eye of Thatakeus" or whatever) on the table for the myth and magic release?
Are you worried about the general activity slowdown in the forums and wiki? How would you explain that despite the community shrinking in size, donations have gone up?
Post by: Eric Blank on January 25, 2019, 11:51:21 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1.1; at the moment at least, pantheons are generated at world gen and the gods dont interact with one another. Theyre all associated with the same civ so theyre united in that way.
1.2; iirc there are plans to give them a real home etc, but for now and this coming version they only exist in the abstract, so have no "home"
1.3; they currently dont form relationships, but with the full myth and/or religion releases that could very well change.
1.4; there may be infighting among the gods or declarations of which god is most important/powerful in the myth/religion releases.
1.5; religious wars will have to wait for the religion arc.
2; Toady tests every release to make sure its kinda playable, and players submit bug reports.
3; game-recognized tournaments and gladiatorial combat will probably happen, but i have no idea when. We do have wrestling competitions in world gen, but theyre not visible during play yet.
Do social skills (other than Pacifier, Consoler, Judge of Intent) have any gameplay effect in fortress mode?1; negotiator, intimidator and persuador all supposedly affect brokers in trading.
(for what it's worth, the wiki states that it is unclear what they actually do)
Are "giant sleeping monsters that are so massive they act as map features", or severed body parts thereof ("The left eye of Thatakeus" or whatever) on the table for the myth and magic release?
2) i doubt supermassive critters (bigger than 1 embark tile) themselves will be feasible any time soon, but we will get multitile creatures, but i bet giant body parts will totally be present after the myth arc, if theyre associated with mythical creatures.
Maybe map scale critters will be viable as static features that just destroy the fort if you wake them up?
Toady; do monasteries, bandit forts and castles have a mead hall-like zone that counts as being in control of the site once claimed, and pedestals/rooms for artifacts?
Did roadside inns/taverns make it in this time around?
Post by: Nopenope on January 25, 2019, 11:55:27 am
Post by: therahedwig on January 25, 2019, 12:02:56 pm
There hasn't been much science, but because they can argue, they can change the values of other creatures through that process(which uses persuader/intimidator, flatterer is to avoid being beaten up, afair). Similarly, comedians are able to tell jokes, etc. FantasticDorf did some !!Science!! on it and found it also related to the personality of the dwarf which skills they apply the most.
Furthermore, the villain recruitment process seems to use these values in worldgen, I wouldn't be surprised if it also uses these values when villains hit fort mode.
Immortal-D: I think Toady was mostly referring to worldgen code, stress changes will proly need to wait till we see dwarf mode improvements.
Post by: terribleperson on January 26, 2019, 12:35:03 am
Post by: Asin on January 26, 2019, 04:06:12 pm
Post by: falcc on January 27, 2019, 11:44:38 am
I notice my starving adventurer dwarf is unwilling to eat live vermin but also won't lick them like she would with another unedible object. Is this because of a moral, an ethic, a bug, or a goofy joke? More importantly is there any intention of a dedicated Lick button as separate from the eat button so we can activate modded talismans or activate modded frogs? Are any advanced Inventory interactions planned for vermin since they can suddenly be a pet and at least picked up and put down? Are any more Shift+I button interactions planned before the big wait since so many fancy items are kicking around now?
Also I've been looking at vermin code a lot and it looks like a few kinds can attack (like bees) but most don't. Is there any reason mosquitos don't bite, even without the bloodsucker effect? Would it be traumatizing to dwarves to be bit by a vermin they don't like, or not any moreso than being around the vermin?
Post by: Death Dragon on January 27, 2019, 04:21:36 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on January 27, 2019, 07:58:06 pm
Also I've been looking at vermin code a lot and it looks like a few kinds can attack (like bees) but most don't. Is there any reason mosquitos don't bite, even without the bloodsucker effect? Would it be traumatizing to dwarves to be bit by a vermin they don't like, or not any moreso than being around the vermin?
Odd iirc. bees do sting and most dorfs dont mind that. [...] Ok like i thought. The Mosquito actualy lacks an attack token in its raws. Bees for example use "VERMIN_BITE" which as far as i see not in the Mosquito description..... maybe a bit of the Vampires bloodsucking could help here?
Post by: CorkNite on January 27, 2019, 08:50:26 pm
Post by: Bumber on January 27, 2019, 09:15:26 pm
Odd iirc. bees do sting and most dorfs dont mind that. [...] Ok like i thought. The Mosquito actualy lacks an attack token in its raws. Bees for example use "VERMIN_BITE" which as far as i see not in the Mosquito description..... maybe a bit of the Vampires bloodsucking could help here?Probably has something do with the fact that there are mosquito men, but no bee men.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 27, 2019, 10:08:06 pm
When you start ordering your party around to do villaneous things, will your group show up on the new "villain networks" map? I imagine that would be a lot of fun to track and compare with the other networks in the world.
And, on the same subject,
I know the schedule is now way off, but just how villaneous will we be able to be with our parties. All the way from ordering artifact stealing, assassinations and coups? (let's say, by the start of the Big Wait in case it's not all in right away)
Oh, and,
Do big villaneous networks persist after the bad guy at the top is dead?
Post by: Bumber on January 27, 2019, 10:42:35 pm
Do big villaneous networks persist after the bad guy at the top is dead?I'm pretty sure the answer was "Yes, to the extent it makes sense."
I assume this means the remaining agents will continue to embezzle for personal gain, but will probably lose interest in the original grand scheme.
Post by: Death Dragon on January 27, 2019, 11:07:47 pm
Do big villaneous networks persist after the bad guy at the top is dead?Yeah pretty much what Bumber said.
Toady talked about exactly that at this timestamp:
https://youtu.be/4-7TtPX5uhg?t=902
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2019, 03:40:38 am
Post by: Death Dragon on January 31, 2019, 04:41:36 am
Are there raws for the new stats like loyalty, intrigue, etc for our custom civs?Well, loyalty is already modable with entity values and as far as I remember intrigue is actually a skill. I'm thinking that for the most part, the new villainous and corrupt activities make use of the values that we already have mod access to.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2019, 06:02:43 am
Are there raws for the new stats like loyalty, intrigue, etc for our custom civs?Well, loyalty is already modable with entity values and as far as I remember intrigue is actually a skill. I'm thinking that for the most part, the new villainous and corrupt activities make use of the values that we already have mod access to.
Devblog:
Quote
In world generation and out of the play area, certain parts of schemes have to be abstracted, so we'll likely have a new skill along the lines of 'intrigue' which will determine certain success rates and so on, and we might find some use for it in play as well. The ambitious and/or cruel people with a knack for intrigue will be the successful villains, along with those that have game-systemic advantages (like a demon or necromancer, or a monarch.)
Edit
Oh, OK, yeah looks like it's a skill. So presumably moddable with Natural_Skill I suppose.
Post by: Death Dragon on January 31, 2019, 07:12:22 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2019, 07:13:55 am
I know there's no way for us to pay them without a proper economy, but can the player in any way interact with these new mercenary companies in fort mode?"Get attacked and killed" seems one likely way. :)
Post by: Death Dragon on January 31, 2019, 08:18:22 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2019, 08:42:26 am
That would be sweet, yes. Hope they get some special announcement message when they arrive, so you know that it's a merc company attacking you, not just some random army.I'm wondering if they would come by themselves, or if they'd tag along with regular armies. Or both I guess.
--I imagine you'd be able to tell it's the local death-worshiping merc gang from insignia's on their armour if there wasn't a particular announcement.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 31, 2019, 11:36:20 am
Can player adventurers join and participate in mercenary orders? That sounds like an awesome opportunity to get a "I trained to battle alongside the death mercenaries" kind of story, like that montage you get in basically all fantasy movies, where the monk order or that one knight teach you how to fight. It would also just be cool to go up in rank and have that. And to get those various "contracts" and actually complete them.(Dark Bortherhood here i come)
Post by: Walkaboutout on January 31, 2019, 12:09:08 pm
How does this actually work? I've heard no talk (perhaps missed it, there is afterall, lots of info around) of the return of economy, so what exactly constitutes wealth at this point, in this context?
It didn't seem like Toady was referencing the barter that is generally the situation right now, so does anyone have more insight (perhaps from a FotF question I've missed) about how this will play out for the player in, say Fortress mode?
I'm curious to know if this system has an impact on the player in some meaningful way at this point; some fashion in which we can spend coins for things. By this I mean in some other way than the otherwise barter-trade type way we make use of stuff like that right now.
Post by: therahedwig on January 31, 2019, 12:34:26 pm
Though, it seems this devlog does answer the question a few pages back about bandit groups. Presumably, like merchenaries they'll be able to disband properly when everyone's dead(or terrified out of their minds... or broke, apparantly :D).
Also, Dwarf Fortress: Assassin's Creed, anyone? It's gonna be fun to frolic around in adventure mode coming release. I am half wondering if I should take the world I have now and regen it with the coming version or whether to try and continue playing in it and see what happens.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 31, 2019, 01:14:06 pm
Toady's said before that right now everyone just keeps track of their accounts during worldgen, but aren't really using coins and the like in play. He hasn't said whether they'll be able to make accounting decisions in the post worldgen yet.Why not play it and regen it when the new version comes out?
Though, it seems this devlog does answer the question a few pages back about bandit groups. Presumably, like merchenaries they'll be able to disband properly when everyone's dead(or terrified out of their minds... or broke, apparantly :D).
Also, Dwarf Fortress: Assassin's Creed, anyone? It's gonna be fun to frolic around in adventure mode coming release. I am half wondering if I should take the world I have now and regen it with the coming version or whether to try and continue playing in it and see what happens.
You would be missing all the new features if you didnt regen it (eg the mercenary groups, villains, etc), new structures/sites etc.
Personally I have a beefy computer with an ssd and such so i usually generate a 3000 year old large region with advanced world parameters with each big release and play in that only, for the most part , all my adventures forts etc. (and i recently got an even better new computer, it generates them rather fast (by comparison) now (i genned a new 3k year old large world a week ago, and it only took a night)
Post by: therahedwig on January 31, 2019, 01:20:07 pm
Of course, this relies on the new version being save compatible. The only thing I can foresee not being save compatible is if the interrogation and execution stuff is going to require new types of tools and furniture(because the entities would otherwise not be able to access those features).
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 31, 2019, 01:25:34 pm
Honestly I have a short attention span and usually gen a new world every few weeks to begin with. :P
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 31, 2019, 01:26:21 pm
Well, I've been playing it for a long while(I tried to get really familiar with it, now I'm almost 50years post worldgen in it), so I'm thinking like, maybe I should just keep playing it when the new version comes out and see the AI take advantage of all the new mechanics, or regen it and see how the world's history would be different when the AI has access to all the villainy to begin with... Maybe I should do both and make a report ;)Yeah, with world activities(http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities) things get complicated, while you are playing it is more complex in some ways and less complex in other ways and not everything in legends mode has been moved to world activities yet.
Of course, this relies on the new version being save compatible. The only thing I can foresee not being save compatible is if the interrogation and execution stuff is going to require new types of tools and furniture(because the entities would otherwise not be able to access those features).
Post by: Inarius on January 31, 2019, 04:39:03 pm
Just to be sure
Do weapon mercenaries based of axes (for instance) only uses axes, or is it just a preference ?
Will we see bowmen mercenaries ?
Will we see animal-men mercenaries ?
Can a weapon (artifact) be worshiped ?
Post by: Verdant_Squire on January 31, 2019, 05:54:43 pm
6. Does the abstracted "personal account" manifest in the world in any way, even if said manifestations are entirely arbitrary? IE: The hearthpeople of a rich lord being better equipped in general?Something along these lines came up in the latest dev blog, so I should probably change this question:
Is the puesdo-"equipment funds" system used exclusively by mercenaries, or will other civ landholders at various levels be able to interact with the system?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2019, 08:07:02 pm
Post by: Thomasasia on January 31, 2019, 08:57:55 pm
How will players be able to interact with the mercenary groups in Fortress Mode?
In adventure mode, will we be able to join them or found our own?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2019, 10:02:36 pm
The new mercenary company stuff is hella cool, but I have a few questions.Well, we travel around getting missions from hearths and we'll have more defined parties, who presumably will have tracked reputation. So, founding a merc group is pretty much all there already. I guess the opportunity to define exactly what kind of group you are for a neat Legends entry would be nice (and the chance for your party to carry on as mercs after you die, I suppose).
How will players be able to interact with the mercenary groups in Fortress Mode?
In adventure mode, will we be able to join them or found our own?
--edit
Hmm. Or not, I guess. They don't automatically give missions to anyone, do they? I forget.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 31, 2019, 10:47:07 pm
Post by: Witty on January 31, 2019, 11:10:55 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 01, 2019, 12:22:53 am
The new mercenary company stuff is hella cool, but I have a few questions.Well, we travel around getting missions from hearths and we'll have more defined parties, who presumably will have tracked reputation. So, founding a merc group is pretty much all there already. I guess the opportunity to define exactly what kind of group you are for a neat Legends entry would be nice (and the chance for your party to carry on as mercs after you die, I suppose).
How will players be able to interact with the mercenary groups in Fortress Mode?
In adventure mode, will we be able to join them or found our own?
--edit
Hmm. Or not, I guess. They don't automatically give missions to anyone, do they? I forget.
To get a mission you have to be a hearth person and ask your lord for a mission.
I’m hoping he adds the ability to get similar agreements from Merc groups, among other things like being able to join them, rank up. Etc. (to get hearth quests you need to become a lords hearthperson so I suppose joining is actually very doable for toady code-wise.
Post by: terribleperson on February 01, 2019, 12:56:21 am
It would be very neat for it to be possible to create artifacts or special/artifact items out of the remains of megabeasts, i.e. Leather armor with some of the material properties of brass from the skin of a Titan with small brass scales. I'd love to see a heirloom suit of armor made from the scales of a dragon someone's great-grandfather slew.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 01, 2019, 12:59:16 am
Artifacts have gotten a lot of love with the update, and look like they're going to get more during the magic update. Related to artifacts, are there any plans to make the properties of procedurally generated megabeasts carry over into the materials they leave behind when they die or are butchered? Similarly, might bronze colossi and dragons leave behind less mundane materials?You might want to post this in the Suggestions forum too. Over there it'll be noted in Toady's Suggestion file. Here it might get answered this week, but will end up forgotten in a few years when such things are actually being considered.
It would be very neat for it to be possible to create artifacts or special/artifact items out of the remains of megabeasts, i.e. Leather armor with some of the material properties of brass from the skin of a Titan with small brass scales. I'd love to see a heirloom suit of armor made from the scales of a dragon someone's great-grandfather slew.
Post by: Death Dragon on February 01, 2019, 01:28:24 am
What exactly did you change to fix the notorious bug that caused cats to die from alcohol poisoning after cleaning themselves? Did you change the amount of content there is in spatterings/smears of contamination in general or did you just change something about how it relates to body size?
The question came up because a well filled with vampire blood contaminated water didn't seem to infect people who drank from it and the comment assumed that it might be related to that bug fix.
Not calling it a bug though. I assume it just means that you require a higher concentration of vampire blood in the water in order to infect people.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 01, 2019, 01:58:08 am
Got a question from Kram1032's comment on Kruggsmash's latest video:Drinking alcohol automatically defaulted to "a mug's worth of alcohol", since that's all that should have been possible. Cats would lick their paws and immediately suffer the effects of downing a mug of ale. Not good a couple of times in a row.
What exactly did you change to fix the notorious bug that caused cats to die from alcohol poisoning after cleaning themselves? Did you change the amount of content there is in spatterings/smears of contamination in general or did you just change something about how it relates to body size?
The question came up because a well filled with vampire blood contaminated water didn't seem to infect people who drank from it and the comment assumed that it might be related to that bug fix.
Not calling it a bug though. I assume it just means that you require a higher concentration of vampire blood in the water in order to infect people.
The fix made incremental alcohol consumption possible. An alcoholic cat playing in a vat of booze might still hurt itself, but generally they're OK now.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 01, 2019, 03:55:28 am
Got a question from Kram1032's comment on Kruggsmash's latest video:Was the well constructed with vampirism spreading in mind? If I understand it correctly, the water would have to be drawn from a contaminated tile, and if the well is two Z levels deep the water would be drawn from the clean upper tile, not the contaminated tile at the bottom (which is also laced with mud, of course).
What exactly did you change to fix the notorious bug that caused cats to die from alcohol poisoning after cleaning themselves? Did you change the amount of content there is in spatterings/smears of contamination in general or did you just change something about how it relates to body size?
The question came up because a well filled with vampire blood contaminated water didn't seem to infect people who drank from it and the comment assumed that it might be related to that bug fix.
Not calling it a bug though. I assume it just means that you require a higher concentration of vampire blood in the water in order to infect people.
Edit: Unrelated, but I'd like to say that I like the latest development report, both the contents and the fact that it wasn't skipped to let a FotF reply take its place.
Post by: Death Dragon on February 01, 2019, 05:10:38 am
Was the well constructed with vampirism spreading in mind? If I understand it correctly, the water would have to be drawn from a contaminated tile, and if the well is two Z levels deep the water would be drawn from the clean upper tile, not the contaminated tile at the bottom (which is also laced with mud, of course).Yeah, there was only 1 water tile in the well and it had a "smear of blood" contamination in it. Apparently wasn't enough to turn people into vampires though.
Post by: Eric Blank on February 01, 2019, 02:53:26 pm
Toady; can mercenary organizations pass down secrets members have? Obviously that death cult didnt get access to the slab or writings about the secret of life and death, but if they do through some means, can that end up worked into their rhetoric the way worship and particular weapons/skills/roles does? Ive made a mod with tons of secrets that dont have reanimation effects, and often see for instance fire mage mercenaries visit my fort.
also, do these companies tend to hold onto artifacts? Im thinking kinda like the stories surrounding the IRL Templar; theyd amass great wealth, supposedly also valuable religious relics, and hoard much of it for themselves or use it to further their interests. What part of those should be viable to see in game?
Post by: Toady One on February 01, 2019, 11:15:33 pm
Quote from: Mordmorgan
So are Pews, Prayers Mats, and Priests (to replace or work with the entertainer) coming with this release?
It's still unclear how fortress mode will interact with any of the new religious stuff. The materials in the buildings haven't been a focus in world gen, though there are smaller 'shrine' type locations (abstractly currently) that will get map realizations when we move on, and that could have an impact. Whether that involves smaller shrine zones in the fort, and a higher bar for a temple, I'm not sure.
Quote from: Inarius
About magic, how do you plan to manage spell duration between adventure mode and fortress mode ? (i mean, spell which will last days/weeks/hours, for instance)
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7909146#msg7909146
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7909237#msg7909237
Yeah, it's really going to have to be handled case-by-case, and also require some play-tested iteration to get right. Certain spells will really need to be stretched (say, a defensive spell that works for 20 seconds in adv mode would actually be useful, where that's not even a tick of time in dwarf mode. It'd probably be best to use the 144x factor there so battles feel similar and can be similarly balanced.) Other spells, say, a curse with a year duration, would work perfectly fine between modes, obeying the calendar. Then there are uncomfortable time frames in between, especially as people travel in and out of the site. Morever, resources have the same problem -- a spell that creates food has almost entirely different meanings in fort/adv mode, if it makes, say, 10 fish. We'll just need to meet this head-on, and, just as it is now, some inconsistencies will have to be part of the game.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Q: Are you still quite fond of that mini-game concept for animal taming if time allowing, you roll around to having adventurers lock up animals in cages?
Q: Will we see any more mini-games sub-activities that aren't explicitly 'games' per say (dwarvish backgammon in the tavern) but rather game-ified actions for the player's enjoyment?
I'm probably just fond of complexifying animal systems in general, though I don't often get a chance to do so.
I'm not sure what counts here. The whole 'c' screen is a sort of mini-game, but you have to put a few dwarves in, similar to how you have to make a dwarf an animal tamer. Vampire detection is a kind of very simple logic game at times, and villain investigations will hopefully improve on that slightly. But the more isolated and unrelated it becomes, the less I'm into it, I guess? There could be exceptions. But we get more out of keeping things connected, and I'm not much of a polish-and-perfect designer when it comes to making tight little experiences, so it might be a misuse of my time.
Quote from: falcc
With the coming releases will adventurers be able to enjoy sleeping in an inn bedroom, feel unhappy sleeping on the ground recently, and enjoy a bedroom like a personal palace when they've built their own site and stashed some treasure in their room? If adding actual focus consequences is out of the question is there something keeping adventurers from having the unpleasant sleeping on the ground memory now that such memories can carry over between fortress mode games?
Not sure if it's the sort of thing I should bug report because it seems more like a design that just predates adventurers being awake in fortress mode at all.
Once the villains are in, succession games can finally act out through play some of their terrible player grudge matches. What are your policies on using Dwarf Fortress as a platform for professional GMing? I am but a simple communist and don't know how all the property licensing of video games or table top games shakes out for people that do it for money. But I write a book for money. Can I make a personalized dwarf fortress succession game a tier on a patreon?
So here's my tragic backstory: for the past three and a half years I've been writing a [now Game of Thrones] sized novel that started out as Dwarf Fortress fanfiction. It started, appropriately enough, as a quick and dirty attempt writing my first full novel (post-college) and it went horribly out of proportion. Aside from a few Urists, which are all placement names, it wouldn't resemble the game right now at all, but you might get to something like it before I finish on my end at this rate.
I have some fans among my friends that I am finally getting into the game. But they'd have a much easier time if I could set up a world for them. That got me thinking: if somebody is supporting my patreon and I'm also GMing a game with DF as the platform, is this opening up some kind of weird bad legal situation for you? I'd hate for Disney to suddenly release a Dwarf Fortress movie and claim to own it because you didn't enforce one instance of profit-making. Such is the bizarre world of US copywrite law.
Yeah, it's more incomplete than buggy, when it comes to adventurer thoughts. I haven't decided what I want to do with that completely, though we've pretty well leaned into the needs system there, and as that continues to impact adventurers, it'll continue to be necessary to do a better job with them.
I have no idea what the wrinkles are there, but I don't mind if you play a DF game with people, whether they are paying you or whatever. I ask that people not sell the binaries, and I'd prefer if people don't sell official Dwarf Fortress this-or-that, but the legal questions elude me. Trademark is different from copyright; I hold the trademark for DF in the US as it concerns Dwarf Fortress as a video game, and I have a world-wide copyright as I understand it, just by having written it, due to whatever convention (Berne?) But how that interacts with profit-making was a recent dispute in a reported post over in a 40K thread (or something) and I'd just as soon not have people fight out their perception of the details in here, heh. Please don't. I've always considered it a practical matter. I have the code, and I can make something people like using that, so I stay alive. The rest doesn't matter much, though I'm sure there are various esoteric ways to make my life miserable if people take a real crack at it. If Disney makes a DF movie, it'd be great advertising whether they screw me on fees or not.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Well, gotta ask this one (just regarding the villains release):
Fortress Mode coups? Yea? Nay? Maybe?
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7912524#msg7912524
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7912544#msg7912544
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7912591#msg7912591
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7912703#msg7912703
etc. (many more posts)
He he he.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Demon lords are included in the villain plans if I recall, right? If so:
Is it possible that with coups being a thing, demon rulers of human civs could become common enough that I might finally see one? For instance, it seems like now the possibility is open for a demon to actively plot a human law-giver's downfall rather than simply waiting until a vacancy opens up like they do now.
Yeah, any demon that is a plotter can plot to take over a civ. If they are the ruler of a goblin civ they wouldn't consider it an improvement to become a human civ ruler themselves (and would therefore place a subordinate in the role.) I haven't seen it yet, but I haven't been logging for it either; I think this is because mostly the demons just end up as or start as goblin civ rulers. There should be more diversity in their roles; perhaps it would make sense to make the named unique demons slightly more numerous now, though we don't want to over-vault the world either.
Quote from: iceball3
Hey Toady, concerning the ever shifting balance of stress mechanics, have you considered or made use of simulative models to identify whether dwarven stress can be managed at all, or is too easily managed given various time (time spent walking, sleeping, entertaining, etc), and quality of life (death of loved ones, isolation or existence of loved ones, wealth, fed levels, etc) budgets? If not, how do you establish estimates of whether dwarves can or shouldnt be able to furnish their unmet needs based on the situation?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7915060#msg7915060
I don't have much to add; there's stuff to fix and missing stuff. We ran some numbers, but it didn't matter. It's hard to set up, say, a unit test that'll stand the test of time on this one, since there's too much to control for.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
It's still yet a but a glimmer in your eye as we can all tell and have been told, but will the fortress's (in fortress mode) own presence as a plot actor to hire a assassin on payroll, could fufill a purpose of 'evening the field' versus very strong and at the moment difficult to take down opponents like immortal tacticians and supernaturally strong defenders? (elves are huge tactics cheaters conquering wide swathes of land and usually beating on humans to extinction with with tactic boosted beasts, and demons really tank the worst of fortress lead tower raids making them very difficult to do unless they meet a accidental demise to pass along leadership) - hopefully without presuming too much with how, but it felt fair to ask since its on development goals.
Bit less of a opened up but still i guess complex question, How much different would deliberately targeting a historical individual be compared to targeting a historical beast/megabeast in terms of a monster hunter versus what the coming assassins will do?, or is it too premature a question with everything still being built up with w.g to comment?
I just saw the parallels in agency that pushing a wad of cash into a monster hunter's (or adventurer within perspective of being that NPC) palm to kill and bring back the corpse or assure a beast is dead would be more useful than having them endlessly wandering our caverns looking for famous monsters (usally made when they as fodder fall prey to something mundane) to come to them. But that's just my opinion.
We need to address the assassin hiring conundrum post wg generally, but you'll very likely be able to send a dwarf at least. If they run afoul of the same questions of access as w.g. assassins, you'd need somebody on the inside first, but that's what agents are for. If the adventure mode experiments are successful, you'll likely get agents for free in fort mode as well.
Aside from whatever bugs people find, assassinating beasts is simply not considered in w.g. For consistency, it shouldn't be an option generally, until we figure out what the germane differences are (sleep, size, etc.) I don't have a conceptual problem with somebody assassinating, say, a giant, if what they do makes sense. I assume the current monster hunters would still be adrenalin junkies, but maybe some of them would prefer to rid the world of monsters with as little fuss as they can manage. Probably won't address that this time around though.
I do agree that the monster hunter cavern death-run as it stands is deeply silly.
Quote from: therahedwig
I am getting a little worried we'll see a ton of goblin kings everywhere due the combo of eternal life+villain personalities. Do you have any kind of mechanisms in mind to avoid every single ruler being an immortal scumbag?
Also, future DF games will proly have a ton more kids if Nushrat's 7 children are any indication. Kinda cool a figure can really specialize in cloak and dagger though.
EDIT:
I just realized that the immortal scumbag kings would actually fit in a dystopian world. Will the mythgen happy-vs-terrible tone slider only affect the types of things and creatures in the world or do you think it might also affect how game mechanics operate?
Immortal critters do have a distinct advantage over people that die. Franchises have had various ways of dealing with this, with varying degrees of half-assitude. My current approach has been to skirt the line as long as possible, since I'm interested in seeing the dynamics and maintaining real differences. However, the myth release will throw a giant wrench into all of this, I think. Broad creature-type relations will be better understood, and the nature of immortality will be better understood. Humans and dwarves could still be immortal or have immortal subgroups. Whether or not we then apply additional world-building rules to the default immortal races will be a little easier to wrap our heads around (or totally impossible, he he he.)
The tone slider will definitely hit mechanics toward the peaceful direction, to the point of turning violence off, so it stands to reason that the harsher direction might also see some coaxing of mechanics, though the game is already quite violent and has dark mechanics, so it might be more subtle. There will be a lot of results-oriented tweaking and good-enoughedness applied here I suspect.
Quote from: Death Dragon
I was also wondering about assassinations:
Will we be able to target ANY historical figure in the world with assassinations/ kidnappings or are we limited to the ones who hold some kind of position like site ruler or the dean of the cheesemaker's guild? I was wondering what the interface for that menu would have to look like to not be too overwhelming.
Some other random questions:
Adjacent sites of the same civilisation can sometimes get into border disputes which lead to arguments and possibly armed combat. Do the new friendship/ rivalry/ villainy systems in some way interact with border disputes or is there no change to them?
In the roguelike celebration talk you gave the example of a necromancer who wants to take revenge on the town that initially banished him and who is able to start a war between humans and elves by sending someone to influence the human law giver. Is this all possible by now or is there still something missing for this to be possible?
Oh, just thought of another one because of the latest devlog:
Do you plan on making NPC assassin do their deeds secretly in a fort mode fort, like vampires do? What I mean is, will they be able to kill someone and leave the fort, passing by other dwarves without anyone noticing that they are a/ were the murderer?
It would be a bummer if they automatically just turned into "invader" status after the murder because that would mean no assassin would ever leave a player fort alive, like the guys who try to steal artifacts.
Yes, it's an open question as to who you should even be allowed to know about. Perhaps you'll need an agent in place to target other people? The position holders are probably public knowledge. There will likely be some cases we miss where a player has a cause to assassinate somebody lower down (a thief of an artifact, say?), and we'll have to catalog potential reasons to bump people up the priority lists perhaps.
More hearth vs. hearth etc. rivalries were on the list of possible avenues to explore, and we didn't get there, and probably won't for this time now. There's certainly a lot to do there. We are still, maybe, hoping to get some preferential treatment in terms of elevating hearth lords to important positions.
We still need the necromancer to act on an entity grudge. It's in the notes and we'll get to it. The necromancer-vampire stuff is one of the big outstanding w.g.-first items left to go, along with hideouts and some improvements to counter-intelligence and punishment.
I hadn't quite gamed out fort-mode assassination details; I think the way you describe is probably best, as a parallel to the "successful" assassinations from world gen. Sometimes, the w.g. ones 'fail', but there's still a duel where the assassin wins; this would probably be analogous to the invader version. Undetected murder probably involves them succeeding in their stealth rolls until they are adjacent to the target, and then rolling a good attack, which it would then fudge and just turn into a murder (like the fell mood) -- if they aren't sneaking (because they are a visitor or a citizen), they'd just need one stealth roll adjacent to the target to simulate the sudden attack, say, and then the good attack roll. The automatic fell murder strike successes have always needed some sort of additional justification or material check, but we can ignore that for now.
Quote from: Inarius
"Snang still carries it."
Does this mean that, now, artifact armors or weapons are actually used and "seen" by people, and considered as armors or weapons, and not just "treasures to be stored/displayed" ?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7916276#msg7916276
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7916284#msg7916284
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917788#msg7917788
This one was held, yeah, but there's still a lot of storage. If I recollect, Snang just didn't have any place to put it. Still need to clean that up generally.
Quote from: Grand Sage
It seems all major position holders (kings, druids ect.) are also villains. Is this intended behaviour or just the effect of something, that isn't implemented yet, and will it stay that way in the release?
Are villains and there groups going to fight about there respective agents ect, or can any given person work for/be extorted by any given number of criminal organizations? in other words, will there be "turf wars" in any sense of the word?
I am not sure if this was asked before, but how many of these new noble positions will we see/be able to appoint in Fort mode?
thx in advance, and thx for an awesome devlog!
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7916533#msg7916533
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7916740#msg7916740
As Shonai_Dweller says, they aren't all villains; I've just been talking about villains a lot.
There's some tussle between the orgs, but since the main villains are so secretive, it's indirect right now. The counter-intelligence stuff could end up changing that somewhat, but we'll see.
I haven't yet added new fort mode positions.
Quote from: Beag
1. With the recent story about intrigue and landed titles and one of the remaining candidates being gaining entry level positions/titles from intrigue do you think it is becoming more likely that with the villain fleshing out update our adventurers will be able to get titles/positions in civilizations by doing quests for high ranking people?
2. In the recent story you posted a lot of land holding nobles were mentioned. Will the land they hold actually exist in that we could visit it? Also how big and how small a parcel of land could a noble hold? Would it have to be at least as big as a site or could they hold a subsection of land within a site?
3. Another thing mentioned in your recent story was assassins. Could our adventurers take up assassination quests in the coming update and like wise could our adventurers hire assassins to kill people? It was stated a while ago that our adventurers could hire their own agents.
4. Finally if our adventurers found a site will they be able to grant landed titles to their subjects?
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917303#msg7917303
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917347#msg7917347
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917356#msg7917356
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917791#msg7917791
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918387#msg7918387
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918511#msg7918511
1. We've been aiming at this as a pre-Big-Wait feature; as you suggest, it is closer now as the additions pile up. Maybe not this release though.
2. Yeah, this currently refers to the noble ranks and how they interlink w/ market towns and vassals and so forth. They hold the town they live in, and its linked villages (if they aren't held by somebody unattached), but it's an abstract notion. And yeah, the human 'lord' positions are a bit more involved now, as there can be hearthlords in market towns that get jumped up to a 'baron' status, and the nobles placed in townless castles are also 'barons' (I think, though I'd considered a name like 'castellan' that didn't quite fit as (I think) it has a more organized military inflection than I intended. This could still change.)
3. (addressed w/ Untrustedlife question below)
4. These are civ-level distinctions, so the adventurer would need to found their own civilization/culture; so this is hampered by the fact that those are smashed together (something we wanted to address for the status/property/etc release.)
Quote from: Verdant_Squire
1. Will creatures always necessarily hold grudges against their former partners, or is it possible for a relationship to simply "not work out" with no ill-will between either person involved? What causes someone to end a relationship, aside from unwillingness to commit?
2a. Should a successful usurper lack the wisdom to properly dispose of the former monarch and their supporters, is it possible for said ex-monarch to orchestrate their own "counter coup" to take back power? If the ex-monarch dies before they can attempt to take back the throne, but still has kids kicking around, would those kids recognize their status as former heirs, and plot to reclaim their rightful throne?
2b. As an extension of the previous question, how will already existing claims interact with the new villain system? Would current position holders be able to recognize potential claimants as a threat, and dispose of them via assassins?
2c. Will we see the children of ruling monarchs engage in the historically time honored tradition of sibling rivarly over who gets to be the heir? Would the degree to which this occurs be affected by how much the civ in question values family / power?
3. Will villains attempt to place people other than themselves in civ ruler positions? For example, could a demon or rival civ leader try to position a more easily influenced or cowardly character as the leader of a neighboring civ? If so, is it necessary for said character to already be caught up in the web, or could this happen without their knowledge of the strings being pulled?
4. What happens if a coup attempt doesn't quite go the way the plotters were hoping?
5. What exactly happens if the monarch of a civ is the primary propagator of a villain network? Would there basically be no consequences whatsoever to be uncovered in that situation? [Who the heck is gonna punish you when you're already at the top of the chain?]
6. Does the abstracted "personal account" manifest in the world in any way, even if said manifestations are entirely arbitrary? IE: The hearthpeople of a rich lord being better equipped in general?
(updated: Is the puesdo-"equipment funds" system used exclusively by mercenaries, or will other civ landholders at various levels be able to interact with the system?)
And a few questions about the upcoming myth and magic arc:
7. We're going to be getting procedural civilized critters - Does this mean that we'll be seeing new types of procedurally generated populated sites? Or are generated creatures just gonna piggyback off of the existing types of sites for the first pass?
8. On the higher settings for randomness, is it possible for worlds to come out of world gen with more than one moon, or perhaps multiple suns? Or maybe no sun and/or no moon? Will these effect the daylight or seasonal cycle on the world? IE: pitch black nights on a world with no moon, different types or cycles of day for worlds with multiple suns, ect.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917624#msg7917624
1. Oftentimes people just break up right now. Grudges don't always happen.
2abc. We had this claim system, broken/unused for a long time, and it hasn't yet been resurrected. It'd be a fine time to get into civil wars and so forth, but it's still felt like the system doesn't quite support that kind of more society-wide factionalism; the villains have the convenience of operating where society doesn't need to evaluate their acts. We'll get it handled robustly at some point.
3. Yeah, sometimes the villain does not desire the position for themself. They don't work with personality traits yet though, and don't try to place uncorrupted people. We almost got to one case of this (related to site rulership vs. the notion of a 'weak' civ ruler that'd be less likely to retake a site), but it hasn't happened yet. As usual, the periphery of possible features grows faster than the implemented ones.
4. Ha ha, still need to handle punishment stuff, and hope to. Right now they just don't pull the trigger if success isn't guaranteed.
5. Yes, in this case they are just a tyrant messing with their people, so their own cops can't do much about it, legally.
6. All adventurer-type people from world gen can upgrade their equipment now, *if* they run into some accounted-for money, which most often but not exclusively happens with mercenaries. I haven't extended the system beyond that yet (aside from, say, the ability to start a merchant company, which also requires starting money.) There might be a bit more before release, since the villains haven't started spending on hideouts/strongholds yet.
7. For the myth/magic stuff, yeah, the hope is to blow the site notion wide open at some point (probably adjacent to the map rewrite.) If the map rewrite doesn't end up in the first pass, it would be best not to extend sites very much, as the work will end up wasted.
8. This is already implicit (but not present) in the prototype, as I've separated out all the astronomical objects. There's a bit of coding to do to get them physically respected in the lighting and in various displays, but yes, having completely different or non-existent day/night cycles is a goal, including situations like the giant pillars w/ lights or light trees from Tolkien, say, where the relevant object isn't necessarily an astronomical object. And of course the 'astronomical' objects could be deities-in-chariots or whatever. Some cases are harder than others, and that practicality will guide what happens in most cases for the first pass especially.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
1. Will player adventurers be able to join an existing villains organization and actually participate
2. Are the assassin agreements available to player adventurers in adventure mode? I’ve always wanted to play as a proper assassin. And the most recent dev log made me excited.
2. This is hoped, but there are some details that need to be worked out. The floating of the contracts is abstracted in world generation, and we'd need to come to terms with how that works in practice.
1. More generally, there are a couple issues: recruitment and local realization of missions. Neither of these are strictly required for the adventurer to be a top villain (just a little recruitment-like chat with the companion, if that.) Certain local realizations, like artifact thefts and assassinations, are already done with existing structures. Doing a local realization of blackmail or a coup or a corrupt position appointment would require more work, and we haven't committed to that. Recruitment runs counter to investigation to some extent; they can't just give themselves away. Ponderment continues.
Quote from: Nopenope
Since you are working along the usual worldgen -> post w.g. -> adventure -> fortress cycle, which ones of the following features are more likely than not to make it to fortress mode (I'm basing myself off your devlogs since the last release):
1. Advanced romance (divorces, rejections, triangles, jealousy, simultaneous partnerships, remarriages, children outside wedding, etc)
2. Dwarven mounts
3. Visitor agents that are part of villain networks, and/or villain citizens
4. Plots to obtain positions (mayor, baron, etc.) or artifacts
5. Assassinations, kidnapping, theft, insurrection, tips for invasion as a result of these plots
6. "Intrigue skill" or loyalty being relevant and/or trainable
7. Sending agents of your own, capturing or killing the villain offsite
8. False identities for agents, villains and other non-vampire migrants/visitors
9. Advanced friendships (people becoming war buddies or childhood friends in your fort, or war buddies/childhood friends arriving together as migrants, etc)
10. Advanced crimes (corruption, embezzling, blackmailing, sabotage)
11. Athletic competitions
12. Appointable new positions (keeper of the seal, royal justiciar, master of beasts, etc.)
13. Foreign trading outposts, and/or being able to send trading outposts offsite
14. Prophets and/or priests arising from temples or arriving as visitors
15. Religion conversion, priesthood positions/occupations
16. Monastic orders
EDIT: to clarify, I'm asking about whether they'll be implemented in fort mode as an actual gameplay element, and in this upcoming release (or at least in subsequent passes, before the big wait, in one of the minor incremental/bugfix ones)
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918596#msg7918596
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918635#msg7918635
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918698#msg7918698
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918759#msg7918759
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918864#msg7918864
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918942#msg7918942
therahedwig is correct on 5, 8, 9, 11. I have just the slightest more optimism on 13-16, but only to the extent I've mentioned so far; we might do some token offering to religion and trade, as time permits.
A bit of 1 is likely. 2 is not (for the next release; can't say for any army stuff that happens before big wait.) 3/4 guaranteed for next time, though for 4, plots to obtain positions run afoul of the player's ability to use the 'n' screen for appointed positions. 6 seems likely as part of fortress investigations. 7 is almost guaranteed (just need to see how the adv mode orders work out, seems like a go.)
12 depends on if I change the raws. Dwarves don't currently indulge in variable position definitions, so anything there would need to be added explicitly, and a barrier there is that fort mode is more granular and so there'd need to be some implementation detail that w.g. doesn't have.
Post by: Toady One on February 01, 2019, 11:15:52 pm
Quote from: Hapchazzard
EDIT: Since the latest development update mentioned upcoming work on villain hideouts, I thought I'd ask some pertinent questions first:
1. I don't imagine it makes sense for bandit forts to have fine granite walls, barring edge scenarios. Will palisades and other such ramshackle fortifications possibly be making an appearance, and see utilization at other types of sites, too? (villages, minor forts, watchtowers, etc)
2. Are there plans for the possibility of 'overlapping sites' - for example, a bandit hideout at the mouth of a cave or the entry levels of a ruin, cities built atop the remains of much older settlements, etc. in the somewhat foreseeable future? Is this something that the update will try and tackle, or is it far too difficult in scope to shoehorn into the update?
3. Was there some specific reason for castles being removed in the first place? (perhaps someone that's been around here longer than me might also have the answer to that question)
4. What kind of size variety do you anticipate for castles?
5. Similarly, do you have any ballparks as to how frequent you want castles to be in a typical human civilization? Having just 3-4 castles in an average civilization would seem a bit odd, seeing as generic-western-fantasy-kingdoms tend to be littered with castles, and this applies to real-life countries, too (those that built them, at least).
Now, my myth & magic questions:
1. Will there be some kind of sanity system beyond the current strange moods, eventually?
2. Are there plans to make 'forbidden knowledge' a thing? As in, knowledge that has an inherent mental effect on anyone who discovers it and doesn't have a strong enough willpower to resist it's effects. Knowledge not meant for mortal minds causing mental degradation, despair, existential dread, unnatural obsessions, etc. is a fairly common trope in fantasy. If this is in the cards, do you have any ideas on how it would be determined what snippets of knowledge are significant enough to warrant mental effects?
3. Speaking of strange moods - what is the long-term plan for them? Will the eventually be scrapped with an entirely different system?
4. Will the player somehow be conveyed the mundaneness of the magic their character is seeing? i.e. being conveyed that the fireball spell the enemy mage is using is very common and run-of-the-mill, versus it being some extremely strange, novel spell that they've never even thought to be possible up until now?
5. Will NPCs be able to react in various ways to magic, depending on their own experience and knowledge of the arcane arts? I can see something like this being especially interesting in low-magic worlds. Stuff like:
-Peasants/townfolk that have never seen magic crowding around someone doing sorcery in public in fascination, or alternatively running away in terror
-Being able to prove your magical capabilities to skeptical individuals, with a wide range of reactions depending on the skeptics' personality
-Authority figures receiving rumors of powerful enough (again, depending on the level of magic in the world) mages, and potentially sending emissaries to offer employment
1. I can't promise they'll be making their way beyond the bandits and mercenaries this time, but yeah, the tall fine stone walls of the towns will not be what the bandit forts are working with.
2. This is a hard problem and will require at least the map rewrite planned for some point during the myth/magic releases. Maybe even more will be needed. Certainly these kinds of sites are highly interesting, and it would be nice to mix all sorts of architectures from time periods along with various natural features, like practically every real-world location does. But there are a lot of systems/generation/structures that need to be respected in DF, and it stops layering from being straightforward.
3. Something to do with food and also how the dwarf nobles got changed? It was so long ago I don't remember.
4. It isn't currently a factor; it has no way of judging the difference, so they remain kind of half-assed, as before. This might not remain the case once I get to adv mode, but we'll see.
5. All of our numbers are lower than real-world counterparts. However, between the castles in every market town, the mead halls, and the ones built outside towns/village (which can become reasonably dense, a few tiles distant from each other so it doesn't look silly, but you can get quite a few), it's as many castles and other defensive structures as you might want for the populations and population centers at play. This is discounting border forts, long walls etc. -- they still really don't understand their spatial relation to adversarial civilizations, or their vulnerable points on the map.
1. There is already in terms of the long-term memories and stress and how that manifests. I'm aware of e.g. Lovecraft-style sanity-check games and so forth, and there's supposed to be a certain supernatural aspect to what's going on there; we'll have to think about how that'd be different from the regular extreme stresses we have now. Dunno if we'll end up doing something with that. Various spell effects related to the matter are also on the table. (There's additionally the matter of improving the general mental illness model, since it's not particularly reflective of reality.)
2. This is related to the above; we'd need to model it, but given the number of 'corruption' mechanics already in mentioned in the prototype, I imagine this will be the case. Technically speaking, the necromancers currently in the game already work this way; the secret to immortality turns them into zombie-raising loners bent on killing the living and writing lots of books about their tower.
3. This is unclear; there's a certain legacy aspect to it, but there's also going to be a divergence at some point between what counts as "vanilla default-slider generated world" and "vanilla editor example world", and stuff will shake out one way or the other. We'd like to keep a lot of the now-iconic matter (plump helmets!) intact somehow, and it's a question what kind of raw objects will feed into the generator and which will live in stock editor world land. The final setup could end up so easily mix-and-match that it becomes a moot point.
4/5. Exposition will not be easy, but the goal is to paint the broad strokes as you are starting your first game (and subsequent games probably.) This will help a bit, so that if you understand that "fire wizards" are everywhere, then it won't have to explain how common every fire effect is as they come. This will need a lot of refinement though. This ties in to the reaction of non-player characters/civilians/etc. to the magic, and that'll be an exposition tool for us as well. It'll be important for observable-and-rare/forbidden magic to affect bystanders and cause reactions among the position-holders etc. We're hoping for all of this.
Quote from: Real_bang
With bandits receiving bandit forts and bugs being fixed will we be able to finally complete quests on destroying bandit camps? Same goes to criminals in town catacombs
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7919671#msg7919671
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7919712#msg7919712
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7919859#msg7919859
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7919996#msg7919996
Yeah, anything to do with this is a bug, and likely not fixed yet if ongoing. As I go through adv mode, that might change as I'm testing forts etc.
Quote from: therahedwig
Do you think we'll see adventure mode jails to go with our villains and the interrogation of them? Like, I can understand there's just too little to do the full range of crime and punishment, but I am currently having a vision of bringing a villain to a law enforcer, and then the law enforcer go 'cool, yes we were looking for this guy' and then lets the villain go because law enforcer is an adventure mode npc who doesn't know what to do with law breakers.
Goblins are the only ones with decent enough dungeons right now. We've been discussing this a bit, handling the humans and non-player forts better
(elves ethics/laws more interested in exile and consumption it seems.) The code for caging/chaining people already exists (see fort mode), so certain difficulties are managed, others would need help. The alternative is a violent end to all investigations, which is non-ideal.
Quote from: Aid
Sorry for my English, it's hard to be a Dwarf Fortress fan who knows English badly,
and so my questions are:
1.1 Will in the game, pantheon of the gods united from the very beginning of the generation of the world, or united by the faith of people?
1.2. Will the gods place where they are most of the time, such as the Ancient Greek in Olympia?
1.3. Can the gods have a relationship and can they have children?
1.4. May be the main gods in their pantheon of gods, for example Zeus in Olympus, may be villains plans for the power struggle?
1.5 Can there be wars between the pantheons. Will people come to war for their faith, on the contrary, God will enter into a war for those who believe in him, this will give a little balance because demons in goblins can kill a hundred for the battle?
2. You will test all updates with a magical release?
3. Is it possible to do something like gladiatorial battles to death, or just for training. Or to make a different type in different worlds or kingdoms as a tournament every 5 years and with the reward for determining the best warrior, and in the other is generated so that once a year, random creatures in the worl are battling to death, here's a lot to come up with the release of magical releases. Especially if they could have been an adventurer
I hope someone understands my Google Translate
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920328#msg7920328
1.1-5. Eric's correct about these, but if these are myth/magic arc questions, then these are possibilities we've considered, yeah, and the prototype already has, say, gods having children, gods having 'homes', gods manifesting, and so forth. It will be a lot more interesting than it is now.
2. Yeah, as Eric says, we test the release as best we can. The bug tracker attests to the (non-)efficacy of this, but it would be much, much worse without what we currently catch.
3. Arenas etc. have been on the table for various releases over the years (including this one), but they generally don't get selected for various reasons (economy, status, audience coordination, etc.) Realized festivals/competitions have similar issues. We'll continue to consider them.
Quote from: Immortal-D
In the Jan. 24 Dev log, you mentioned a lot of bug fixing. Have you found and/or fixed anything related to the Stress system? Is there anything we can do to help with that issue? Like making specific scenario test forts and uploading them. I thought of this again because my current Fort had a Dwarf with maximum happiness (DFHack cheat) become depressed in a single tick after viewing a pool of Horrid Sludge.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920336#msg7920336
As therahedwig says, this wasn't bug fixes for old stuff, just the new ones I introduced at the time. Stress fixes will come before the Big Wait. We'll see about before this release; feels tighter and tighter as we go, naturally. But it'll happen. What you describe sounds like a simple bug that would work with a tracker save and report if it isn't already up, depending on how the happiness value was changed -- the system has become complicated, so the hack would have to hit a lot of info to really clean a dwarf up. I assume it does, but I have no idea.
Quote from: Nopenope
Do social skills (other than Pacifier, Consoler, Judge of Intent) have any gameplay effect in fortress mode?
(for what it's worth, the wiki states that it is unclear what they actually do)
Are "giant sleeping monsters that are so massive they act as map features", or severed body parts thereof ("The left eye of Thatakeus" or whatever) on the table for the myth and magic release?
Are you worried about the general activity slowdown in the forums and wiki? How would you explain that despite the community shrinking in size, donations have gone up?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920328#msg7920328
Nopenope (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920330#msg7920330
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920336#msg7920336
Currently in fortress mode, they all impact conversation rolls in groups. The conversation 'tasks' are console, haggle, discuss request, calm venter, and cover for gaff. These tasks impact tree demands, trade agreement % values, haggling, whether you can cover if you screw up and offer the elves something wrong, etc, and the skill rolls matter. Regardless of the skill name, "consoler" isn't the only skill used to console somebody. Here are the lists:
Console: console, persuasion, negotiation, lying, conversation, comedy, flattery
Haggle: persuasion, negotiation, lying, intimidation, judge intent, comedy, flattery
Discuss Request: persuasion, negotiation, lying, intimidation, judge intent, flattery
Calm Venter: persuasion, negotiation, lying, intimidation, judge intent, comedy, flattery, pacify
Cover for Gaff: persuasion, negotiation, lying, comedy, flattery, pacify
I'm not sure if any of the existing skills are missing there, but that's the list. Some of those should have modifiers (obviously, 'console' should matter more for consoling than flattery), but that isn't the case right now. And as you can see, persuasion, negotiation, lying, and flattery are the best skills to max out, as it stands. I'll change this at some point. Looking at it now makes me want to change it today, heh. If I do, it'll just be some percentage modifiers. Yeah, count on that. But still, the general skills (like "persuasion" and "lying") will be usable in all situations. Expect console to matter more for console and pacify to matter more for calm venter at the very least for next time; there should also be personality effects from the target, but I'll hold off on that.
Massive map feature monsters are probably more likely than multi-tile creatures for the magic release (assuming a map rewrite), as they are a completely different object that can follow new and easy rules (whereas multi-tile creatures are a nightmare.) The myths already have severed bits of deities and mythical creatures becoming various stuff in the prototype; if they stay around and chill awhile, I wouldn't be surprised, especially if I don't have to do much more than the existing eye/worm 'grass' to make them feel appropriate (and I can do more shape-wise if I have the map rewrite to work with, like, an actual giant round eye, heh. Half-spheres are easy, anyway.)
I don't have additional data or explanations for the various community metrics. The forum numbers don't feel *tremendously* different. The 500-700 ranges for Januarys from 2012 to 2019 are pretty consistent; it has dropped a bit, and sometimes it dips into the 300s nowadays, but we had a 739 today, so I really have no idea. The latest version downloads are currently around 60000 a month, and that's been consistent for the last five months according to these stats. I don't have the older numbers on hand, but it doesn't strike me as different from what I've seen (and I have no idea how many of those downloads are "real".)
Quote from: Eric Blank
Toady; do monasteries, bandit forts and castles have a mead hall-like zone that counts as being in control of the site once claimed, and pedestals/rooms for artifacts?
Did roadside inns/taverns make it in this time around?
I haven't done the maps yet. I'll make a note to handle the zones.
Don't have roadside sites at this point.
Quote from: terribleperson
With bandit forts getting added, what features are missing before a DF world could theoretically reenact the classical Chinese novel Water Margin? Could a group of bandits end up serving as a military for the group they once preyed on? Similarly, could a military unit end up as bandits? If not, what features are needed before they could?
Ha, that was a long one with many individual details. Ignoring those, we'd still need a lot. The bandit -> military unit transition isn't in. Right now, the mercenary groups just described in the log still have a wall up between them and bandits, organization-wise, but those are the lines we're hoping to blur entirely later on. We also don't have more official military units than hired mercenaries -- the armies aren't well-defined, mostly (I don't remember how official they became.) There's a notion of the reputation/fear/etc. between bandits and the rulers, and of the reason why bandits become bandits; there's a "honorable/righteous outlaw" concept, in the face of tyranny/corruption/etc. Those are still missing. Much more, I'm assuming; just refreshing my memory from the wikipedia entry.
Quote from: Asin
Toady, what sort of symbols/tiles represent these new sites you're adding in (monasteries, bandit forts, castles)?
The castles had an existing symbol, the gray circle that's up top in the glyph set. The monastery is a dark gray one. The forts use the inverted one up there, brown, like a wooden wall with a central structure.
Quote from: falcc
I notice my starving adventurer dwarf is unwilling to eat live vermin but also won't lick them like she would with another unedible object. Is this because of a moral, an ethic, a bug, or a goofy joke? More importantly is there any intention of a dedicated Lick button as separate from the eat button so we can activate modded talismans or activate modded frogs? Are any advanced Inventory interactions planned for vermin since they can suddenly be a pet and at least picked up and put down? Are any more Shift+I button interactions planned before the big wait since so many fancy items are kicking around now?
Also I've been looking at vermin code a lot and it looks like a few kinds can attack (like bees) but most don't. Is there any reason mosquitos don't bite, even without the bloodsucker effect? Would it be traumatizing to dwarves to be bit by a vermin they don't like, or not any moreso than being around the vermin?
Mel_Vixen: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7921499#msg7921499
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7921535#msg7921535
The lick thing is just an old silly message generally; I didn't have particular ideas about live vermin or how it interacted there. A lick command would go in when there's a serious vanilla reason for it, likely. I don't have particular plans for more Shift+I stuff in the near-term. We're missing a ton of adv mode activities dating back to 2002, like digging. It just needs a directed push at some point.
The raws are just underfed generally. The Capybara-centric sound system has only been extended in mods, etc. Just lots to do.
Quote from: Death Dragon
What do the new monasteries look like? Are they multiple buildings in close proximity or are they just one? Are they a big rectangle or is there more to their design?
Dunno! All the maps are to be worked on, once we get out of worldgen. They don't have any separate defined structures at this point, but that doesn't mean they won't have buildings, and it's possible they'll end up with a temple and library for some religions.
Quote from: CorkNite
How will the Myth and Magic update affect night-creatures?
The details aren't set, but in the prototype we've been running with more explanations of them that make mythological sense. This'll likely have effect on their types and appearances, ultimately leading to how they are combatted etc. Ghosts are a special case; the disposition of the soul etc. in whatever afterlife will likely influence what ghosts are, whether they exist, etc. As with other vanilla fort mode stuff, there'll likely be options that keep a kind of default ghost-rich environment, to the extent it isn't displaced by something better.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
When you start ordering your party around to do villaneous things, will your group show up on the new "villain networks" map? I imagine that would be a lot of fun to track and compare with the other networks in the world.
And, on the same subject,
I know the schedule is now way off, but just how villaneous will we be able to be with our parties. All the way from ordering artifact stealing, assassinations and coups? (let's say, by the start of the Big Wait in case it's not all in right away)
Oh, and,
Do big villaneous networks persist after the bad guy at the top is dead?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7921568#msg7921568
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7921572#msg7921572
Ha ha, yeah, that would be amusing. I'm not sure how the code'll work yet... it seems like, to get retirement or any specific plot to work, the "intrigue perspective" would need to be implemented for your adventurer, which is what it works from when it outputs the image. So, probably.
The intention is that you'll be able to use any of the command available in post w.g. And the intention for post w.g. is that villains will be able to use all of the commands from w.g. So that's the goal. That is, we're hoping to have an adventurer-led coup in this release. Whether or not we can pull it off depends on various factors. It's quite likely it won't work if the local map is loaded; doing that always takes a ton of extra work, and we don't even have the regular position appointments defined at that level. This will leave the work to your traveling subordinates, who will then inform you that the final move has been made. Stuff like assassinations and thefts on the other hand already have local mechanical realizations (or just need a few tweaks.)
Yeah, people running their own assets can keep working. They all understand what they are in it for, so some of them will stop. Currently, it doesn't have the villain get lieutenants together in a room to know each other, so the network can't patch up fully like that, as it would in a more organized entity with positions. At some point, the "criminal organization"/"outcast" entity should probably come into play, but villains right now don't operate with that structure.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are there raws for the new stats like loyalty, intrigue, etc for our custom civs?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923099#msg7923099
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923130#msg7923130
Yeah, intrigue is a skill. "Loyalty"/"trust"/"fear"/etc. (not as values, but as variables in a relationship between two hfs) don't fit into the raws directly (since we don't have pre-defined hfs), but the related values (and personality etc.) affect them; this system of fleshing out relationships is still in its infancy, so I'm not quite sure if some parts will make it out to the raws or perhaps new values/etc. will be necessary. Seems okay so far.
Quote
Quote from: Death DragonI know there's no way for us to pay them without a proper economy, but can the player in any way interact with these new mercenary companies in fort mode?Quote from: ThomasasiaHow will players be able to interact with the mercenary groups in Fortress Mode?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923142#msg7923142
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923167#msg7923167
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923176#msg7923176
Ha ha, yeah, we were planning on a special announcement if you get attacked by one; even if it's a little more than you should know about them, it'd be a waste not to get those details out there. Possible exception is if a lone mercenary (who is part of a company) sneaks into your fort on a job and completes it without being detected; you might not get either their or their company's identity immediately in that case. But sending out an agent and getting the company identity and then finding a way up the chain is a core part of the planned game here.
To a larger possible point, it wooould be cool if you could hire them. The trade depot broker does already track the currency value of goods, and there are those coins and everything; just because the proper economy is turned off doesn't mean there isn't already trading. We're still considering this. It would be funny if that were the only practical use for fort mode coins for a while, having a dwarf messenger hauling a pile of them off-screen with a job request (unless mercenaries do jobs on credit and you settle up later with a representative; at this point, *if* we get to this, it'll be whatever's easier to program.) You could see every gold vein as a number of contracts, in coins per tile, if they aren't willing to take your golden figurines.
Quote
Quote from: UntrustedlifeCan player adventurers join and participate in mercenary orders? That sounds like an awesome opportunity to get a "I trained to battle alongside the death mercenaries" kind of story, like that montage you get in basically all fantasy movies, where the monk order or that one knight teach you how to fight. It would also just be cool to go up in rank and have that. And to get those various "contracts" and actually complete them.(Dark Bortherhood here i come)Quote from: ThomasasiaIn adventure mode, will we be able to join them or found our own?
It would be cool, yeah. I won't know until we get there how the time is feeling, but the recruitment in world gen is pretty easy-going (assuming you profess the correct religion and are willing to use the correct weapons, should those be required), so it would make sense. We don't quite understand the nature of the new parties, or what it means when a companion joins you when you aren't already in a hearth together; you can make your own hearth, but that's different from these new "military organizations", and it certainly makes sense for the adventurer to be able to found one of those (even more sense than founding a hearth without a site claim.) We'll just have to see how it all shakes out. The primary focus for adventure mode additions will be investigating villains and being a villain. If we get to mercenary stuff, that'll also be good.
I did add the honor/rank/title/etc. system in the hopes of eventually bestowing them on adventurers, and also allowing you to design/play with them in fort mode. It's unclear when that'll happen.
Quote from: Walkaboutout
So, in the latest dev diary, there is much mention of wealth and currency as it relates to mercenary companies. Talk of upgrading gear with wealth, upkeep costs, etc.
How does this actually work? I've heard no talk (perhaps missed it, there is afterall, lots of info around) of the return of economy, so what exactly constitutes wealth at this point, in this context?
It didn't seem like Toady was referencing the barter that is generally the situation right now, so does anyone have more insight (perhaps from a FotF question I've missed) about how this will play out for the player in, say Fortress mode?
I'm curious to know if this system has an impact on the player in some meaningful way at this point; some fashion in which we can spend coins for things. By this I mean in some other way than the otherwise barter-trade type way we make use of stuff like that right now.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923276#msg7923276
Yeah, there's a new 'account' number that abstractly keeps track of what kind of money/power/debt/favors etc. a person can pull. This'll be fleshed out as we add more systems, but, as with the fort mode trading and existing partial worldgen economy, we can do a few this-or-thats economically when the need arises. We're still hoping to get to a proper economy at some point after the property/status/etc. release (some portion of an economy is implicit in that release, with the larger scale trade/production stuff more depending on whether or not we remain sufficiently obsessed with boats.)
Quote from: Inarius
Do weapon mercenaries based of axes (for instance) only uses axes, or is it just a preference ?
Will we see bowmen mercenaries ?
Will we see animal-men mercenaries ?
Can a weapon (artifact) be worshiped ?
If they are dedicated, then their weapons are actually restricted. Yeah, they can be purely dedicated to a single ranged weapon.
If an animal person population moves into a human or dwarf town as sometimes happens, I believe they are as eligible to become mercenaries as anybody. I haven't seen one as a founder, but I wasn't logging creature types for the general members carefully.
We don't have artifact worship. We were thinking about having the dedicated mercenaries at least attempt to buy/acquire artifacts of the type they like, but we didn't get there.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will we see entire merc companies (up to the pop cap) visiting Fortress mode taverns, like performance troupes?
This seems like a reasonable possibility for the ones that don't have permanent forts. I didn't get to my Mamertine bit yet where mercenary guests decide (on a whim?) to become hostile (Messana); this might be funny, though there'd need to be fair chances/safeguards for the cautious player.
Quote from: Egan_BW
Will we see the armies of regular civilizations getting those nice skill based titles as well as mercenaries? Would be neat to see royal guards with their own generated flowery titles (and above-average skills and equipment, maybe)
Not yet -- there are still no regular armies for civilizations. Everybody is still just drafted, while there might be a "general" or the lords and their hearth people, the bulk of the battles are done by random civilians. The mercenary groups use a "military organization" entity type, and part of the idea is to perhaps solve these problems in a satisfying way using a subgroup, but probably not now. There's also the potential conflict with the militia commander/captain system from fort mode, which generally is too historical-figure-leaning and can't handle large numbers.
Quote from: Witty
Just to confirm, will other entities like bandit groups or possibly even civilizations disband properly once enough of their members have died out, like with mercenary bands?
I haven't changed any buggy death behavior etc. that existed. There are some additional death checks in world gen, but I haven't exited world gen yet.
Quote from: terribleperson
Artifacts have gotten a lot of love with the update, and look like they're going to get more during the magic update. Related to artifacts, are there any plans to make the properties of procedurally generated megabeasts carry over into the materials they leave behind when they die or are butchered? Similarly, might bronze colossi and dragons leave behind less mundane materials?
It would be very neat for it to be possible to create artifacts or special/artifact items out of the remains of megabeasts, i.e. Leather armor with some of the material properties of brass from the skin of a Titan with small brass scales. I'd love to see a heirloom suit of armor made from the scales of a dragon someone's great-grandfather slew.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923729#msg7923729
The prototype does this a bit already, depending on who dies to make what pieces of the world, and I imagine it'll carry forward, since the 'sphere' associations with such creatures are often used when rolling up new systems/magic/etc.
Generally, materials already pass all of their mundane properties on to the stuff you make, since the material definition is the same (like bone) or derived (like leather), but yeah, there's extra room for the game to recognize and use the really important creatures and their subsequent products.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Got a question from Kram1032's comment on Kruggsmash's latest video:
What exactly did you change to fix the notorious bug that caused cats to die from alcohol poisoning after cleaning themselves? Did you change the amount of content there is in spatterings/smears of contamination in general or did you just change something about how it relates to body size?
The question came up because a well filled with vampire blood contaminated water didn't seem to infect people who drank from it and the comment assumed that it might be related to that bug fix.
Not calling it a bug though. I assume it just means that you require a higher concentration of vampire blood in the water in order to infect people.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923740#msg7923740
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923769#msg7923769
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923787#msg7923787
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923993#msg7923993
Yeah, my recollection is that all I needed to change was the ingestion amount they were taking in; the amount on the paws wasn't actually that high, maybe, but the ingestion function was being fed a larger inexact amount (since it hadn't mattered up to that point.) My recollection could be wrong at this point, and I'd defer to earlier remarks if they are any more clear.
I don't think the amount matters with vampire blood, so that's perhaps a bug.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Toady; can mercenary organizations pass down secrets members have? Obviously that death cult didnt get access to the slab or writings about the secret of life and death, but if they do through some means, can that end up worked into their rhetoric the way worship and particular weapons/skills/roles does? Ive made a mod with tons of secrets that dont have reanimation effects, and often see for instance fire mage mercenaries visit my fort.
also, do these companies tend to hold onto artifacts? Im thinking kinda like the stories surrounding the IRL Templar; theyd amass great wealth, supposedly also valuable religious relics, and hoard much of it for themselves or use it to further their interests. What part of those should be viable to see in game?
Secrets: They don't currently. Performance troupes don't either. All of them have a sort of domain-specific segmentation to their teaching. This should all be softened, and it's certainly appropriate for necromancer death people to take that sort of thing into account, but I'm not sure how it's going to proceed. If nothing happens before the magic release, certainly the new-and-varied teaching/organizational structure there will come into play.
Artifacts: Villains do this. We'd wanted the mercenaries interested in weapons to do so as well, according to the type. But generally, the account-enabled organizations like mercenaries and merchant companies don't make such investments or take such treasures at the entity-level (they do at the personal level.) It would make sense, and to the extent the villains are involved and part of company leadership, it'll feel like it sometimes, but there's still more to do.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 02, 2019, 12:12:46 am
Post by: clinodev on February 02, 2019, 01:41:13 am
Quote
I don't have additional data or explanations for the various community metrics. The forum numbers don't feel *tremendously* different. The 500-700 ranges for Januarys from 2012 to 2019 are pretty consistent; it has dropped a bit, and sometimes it dips into the 300s nowadays, but we had a 739 today, so I really have no idea. The latest version downloads are currently around 60000 a month, and that's been consistent for the last five months according to these stats. I don't have the older numbers on hand, but it doesn't strike me as different from what I've seen (and I have no idea how many of those downloads are "real".)
This topic has come up multiple times recently on the /r/dwarffortress subreddit, for some reason, people all a-panic that the Bay12Forum/Dwarf Fortress community is dying. I wonder what the origin of the concern is.
On the reddit side, which I can speak for as one of the moderators with access to usage numbers, our ~74k members and other unsubscribed readers are generating ~70k unique visitors and 601k to 1M+ page views per month, with a substantial positive subscription rate. They don't give us year over year data, only the previous year, but it doesn't look like a weakening community to me.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 02, 2019, 02:59:18 am
QuoteI don't have additional data or explanations for the various community metrics. The forum numbers don't feel *tremendously* different. The 500-700 ranges for Januarys from 2012 to 2019 are pretty consistent; it has dropped a bit, and sometimes it dips into the 300s nowadays, but we had a 739 today, so I really have no idea. The latest version downloads are currently around 60000 a month, and that's been consistent for the last five months according to these stats. I don't have the older numbers on hand, but it doesn't strike me as different from what I've seen (and I have no idea how many of those downloads are "real".)
This topic has come up multiple times recently on the /r/dwarffortress subreddit, for some reason, people all a-panic that the Bay12Forum/Dwarf Fortress community is dying. I wonder what the origin of the concern is.
On the reddit side, which I can speak for as one of the moderators with access to usage numbers, our ~74k members and other unsubscribed readers are generating ~70k unique visitors and 601k to 1M+ page views per month, with a substantial positive subscription rate. They don't give us year over year data, only the previous year, but it doesn't look like a weakening community to me.
Seems plenty active to me, even the adventurer sub forum has more activity then it used to. Maybe some of the "concern" came from this post that somehow got upvotes?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/a9hf1j/the_bay12forums_community_is_slowly_dying_why_is/
Regardless discord and reddit are supplanting forums, so that could be one cause of perceived inactivity. And the moderators there say its more popular then ever.
Dwarf fortress has always been a niche game and donations just keep going up, DF is fine.
Also, i absolutely love adventure mode. And play it far more then i do fort mode so i am extremely excited.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 02, 2019, 05:03:26 am
Its a pity i couldn't slip mine in earlier as the question came to me this morning in my mind, but "Are the militaristic mercenary groups viable candidates in the future for alternative starting fort scenarios, they seem pretty fleshed out compared to other groups in a self sufficient way besides say- a travelling band of minstrels" Auldsmen we still haven't got a lot of coverage of, we've seen traders, prophets, mercenaries but only the hints of the honest workers of the guilds.
A second tangental question towing the line of a suggestion i guess: "Will auldsmen also have favourite items contrary to their fluffily assigned 'jobs' that they specialise in or am i reading too much into it based of merc's?" here's to thinking contracting a guildmember with a penchant for scimitars (T&C's apply) could be put to work equipping your dwarves just by being a hired specialist to equip them with freshly forged arms, save them just being a tad useless apprenticeship workshop and maybe a background industrial presence in W.G but we'll see what comes out in devlogs i guess.
- At this rate, Toady might just release 'Bannerlord' before M&B dev's do.
Post by: Inarius on February 02, 2019, 06:36:29 am
Quote
Generally, materials already pass all of their mundane properties on to the stuff you make, since the material definition is the same (like bone) or derived (like leather), but yeah, there's extra room for the game to recognize and use the really important creatures and their subsequent products.
Finding a legendary leather or scale armor from a dragon, well, it would be really a huge step in the game.
Thanks for the reply, Toady !
Post by: Death Dragon on February 02, 2019, 07:01:00 am
Nice.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWell, gotta ask this one (just regarding the villains release):He he he.
Fortress Mode coups? Yea? Nay? Maybe?
I love this. It delays the update release by a bit more, but man oh man would it be amazing to finally get some purpose for coins in fortress mode again.QuoteQuote from: Death DragonI know there's no way for us to pay them without a proper economy, but can the player in any way interact with these new mercenary companies in fort mode?Quote from: ThomasasiaHow will players be able to interact with the mercenary groups in Fortress Mode?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923142#msg7923142
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923167#msg7923167
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923176#msg7923176
Ha ha, yeah, we were planning on a special announcement if you get attacked by one; even if it's a little more than you should know about them, it'd be a waste not to get those details out there. Possible exception is if a lone mercenary (who is part of a company) sneaks into your fort on a job and completes it without being detected; you might not get either their or their company's identity immediately in that case. But sending out an agent and getting the company identity and then finding a way up the chain is a core part of the planned game here.
To a larger possible point, it wooould be cool if you could hire them. The trade depot broker does already track the currency value of goods, and there are those coins and everything; just because the proper economy is turned off doesn't mean there isn't already trading. We're still considering this. It would be funny if that were the only practical use for fort mode coins for a while, having a dwarf messenger hauling a pile of them off-screen with a job request (unless mercenaries do jobs on credit and you settle up later with a representative; at this point, *if* we get to this, it'll be whatever's easier to program.) You could see every gold vein as a number of contracts, in coins per tile, if they aren't willing to take your golden figurines.
Would still need a bunch of other work though of course. Can't wait until the update finally comes to the fort mode implementations.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 02, 2019, 11:51:25 am
Unless of course, money demands and prices help respectively grease the slow turning wheels (taking ingame years) of the systems we already have in and around visitors and other mechanics.
Post by: therahedwig on February 02, 2019, 04:19:13 pm
Rather amused at villains having to gain funds to make a hide out. I am now imagining all those necromancers just sitting around in a grass field with hundreds of zombies, writing books about accounting, how to budget a building project, and debating whether or not raising the dead is tax-deductable (unfortunately, the latter will need to wait till the law and property arc :C ).
Super excited for the sites work :)
This topic has come up multiple times recently on the /r/dwarffortress subreddit, for some reason, people all a-panic that the Bay12Forum/Dwarf Fortress community is dying. I wonder what the origin of the concern is.
On the reddit side, which I can speak for as one of the moderators with access to usage numbers, our ~74k members and other unsubscribed readers are generating ~70k unique visitors and 601k to 1M+ page views per month, with a substantial positive subscription rate. They don't give us year over year data, only the previous year, but it doesn't look like a weakening community to me.
I suspect they must've started playing DF during a time period when there was a lot of activity, and are surprised at the lowered activity currently.
Having played DF for 10 years... People just come and go? Like, a whole bunch of people that were once teenagers are now adults that are spending time on adulting, people play DF in different ways, etc. I bet we're gonna see them super confused when there's going to be bugfix releases after a big release. ;)
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 02, 2019, 04:51:58 pm
Anyway, thanks for the answers as always Toady. Good luck on wrapping up the worldgen work this month.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 02, 2019, 08:56:17 pm
Post by: terribleperson on February 03, 2019, 12:49:12 am
Post by: Aid on February 03, 2019, 08:07:24 am
Why dwarves are only defending, I thought that after the last release they will attack
I heard that you want to change the legends mode, is it possible to do so that in the games themselves they see how some of the known information is wobbling and when exporting there was all the information in XML dump
How do you think when the game is ready in your opinion
People have already started to think when magic and myths will come out in a special topic, you have a date when you want to get an update?
What is your development plan now? Release the villainous update, myths and magic in parts and then what will you do?
Did you ever think of throwing a game?
How long now is the generation of the world now? And in general, the performance of the dwarf fortress
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 03, 2019, 08:37:10 am
Hello Toadi, thank you for the questions and answers.Little question,will the mode of Legends change, now without utilities it is difficultGiven that there are 3:rd party utilities to make Legends Mode info more accessible, it's probably a better use of Toady's time to improve the contents (to include all the new stuff), rather than the presentation, plus, of course, to provide all the new things that fuel Legends.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 03, 2019, 08:39:48 am
Hello Toadi, thank you for the questions and answers.Little question,will the mode of Legends change, now without utilities it is difficultYes. It's a long term project but it (and, really, everything else in the game) isn't in any kind of "completed" state.
One update we should see sooner rather than later (5-6 years from now as opposed to 10-15) is a similar interface to the upcoming Myth Generator which uses a kind of hypertext interface.
And of course, Toady also gives us the option to export the data to use externally. That'll always be there and support will continue for that with increasingly more access to data for exporting (again, in the long-term).
In the end though, external viewers will almost always be the best way to get at maps and stuff.
Post by: Death Dragon on February 03, 2019, 11:21:47 am
Hello Toadi, thank you for the questions and answers.Little question,will the mode of Legends change, now without utilities it is difficultHe did say in a devlog and in previous questions that he made some changes to legends mode and its structure:
"I managed to scrunch the data down so that the historical figure legends display shows all of their various dalliances, which was a concern for a bit, as there is a lot of activity. I also made every battle a historical figure participates in, even as a regular soldier, part of the figure's chronology now, which helps reconstruct narratives such as the one to follow."
Some more info about the changes could be nice.
Post by: Bumber on February 03, 2019, 01:36:13 pm
Does the equipment belong to the company, or is it awarded to individuals?
Post by: therahedwig on February 03, 2019, 03:23:17 pm
Quote
Does the equipment belong to the company, or is it awarded to individuals?
Last two sentences of the devlog imply the equipment is owned by individuals:
Quote
Individual mercenaries can also use their money to upgrade their own equipment. This typically happens before their company (if any) steps up, but a wealthy company can pay to equip joining members if they are behind.
Don't know if mercenaries are smart enough to sell/downgrade either though, so that one still stands :)
Post by: Aid on February 03, 2019, 07:38:42 pm
I did not hear about it, I'm very pleased to hearQuote from: Aid link=topic=169696.msg7924855#msg7924855
date=1549199244Hello Toadi, thank you for the questions and answers.Little question,will the mode of Legends change, now without utilities it is difficultHe did say in a devlog and in previous questions that he made some changes to legends mode and its structure:
"I managed to scrunch the data down so that the historical figure legends display shows all of their various dalliances, which was a concern for a bit, as there is a lot of activity. I also made every battle a historical figure participates in, even as a regular soldier, part of the figure's chronology now, which helps reconstruct narratives such as the one to follow."
Some more info about the changes could be nice.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 03, 2019, 07:52:06 pm
If it was just a straight conversion of the carpenter's workshop's contents it'd make sense, but you correctly omitted being able to make cages (useless in adventure mode as far as I can determine), along with a lot of furniture items you can't place in the construction menu, but ALSO omitted animal traps (available from a carpenter's workshop in fort mode, and useful in adventure mode for trading vermin) and minecarts (which are hilariously useful in adventure mode).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 03, 2019, 09:57:22 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on February 04, 2019, 01:20:00 am
First, is it planned for religiously affiliated mercenary companies to interact with the organized religions that they follow? For example sending guards with prophets/priests/pilgrims of the same religion, or perhaps their members will also undertake pilgrimages themselves? May be jumping ahead in terms of development with this one, been a while since I've read up on the posted future plans.
Second, do the new networking mechanics interact with entity ethics? Namely in regards to the [JUSTIFIED_IF_NO_REPERCUSSIONS] tag? Like say Entity Member A murders Entity Member B in broad daylight, while Entity Member C is the local law enforcement officer who would normally intervene. But in this instance, A has flipped C into their network beforehand, and thus evades the otherwise lawful consequences for their actions. I know this is what happens in the upcoming villain update regardless. But I'm wondering if this might have or be planned to have some special interaction?
Post by: Laterigrade on February 04, 2019, 02:07:01 am
Post by: Silverwing235 on February 04, 2019, 05:46:06 am
friendly reminder for the unaware and anyone else, Toady prefers lime green for his questions. Something about being able to distinguish it better, if I recall.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 04, 2019, 07:29:26 am
Posting to watch myself, but Laterigrade needs a slight colour adjustment -The lime green is more readable than the "normal" green, but both work for Toady's purposes: to locate the questions among all the chaff when it comes time to read the next FotF (he reads the whole thread, if I understand it correctly, but it's helpful for the answer compilation phase to be able to locate the relevant parts quickly). Still, higher readability is better than a poorer one...
friendly reminder for the unaware and anyone else, Toady prefers lime green for his questions. Something about being able to distinguish it better, if I recall.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 04, 2019, 02:35:14 pm
Same reason you can assign parts of your Adventurer camps as taverns and temples even though it doesn't do anything yet. It's not finished. It'll all do something eventially. Splints will surely be used in the upcoming medical upgrades for example.
Makes sense, though it does seem like an odd mishmash of reactions. Having useless zones in the camps may be odd, but it's more or less consistent with fort-mode handling, whereas the carpentry reaction section doesn't follow that translation from fort mode to adventure mode as neatly.
Which does make me think yeah, unfinished plans possibly, and omitting some things that do have niche uses in adventure mode was likely just forgetting about them briefly.
Post by: Laterigrade on February 05, 2019, 02:20:03 am
Posting to watch myself, but Laterigrade needs a slight colour adjustment -Thanks; fixed.
friendly reminder for the unaware and anyone else, Toady prefers lime green for his questions. Something about being able to distinguish it better, if I recall.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 06, 2019, 12:49:33 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on February 06, 2019, 02:40:50 pm
Have you considered allowing adventurers to put points into http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Appraiser at the start of the game, so that we can see goods prices in adventure mode? Or is there some mechanical blocker there?.I suspect that the adventure mode trade interface isn't set up to display prices, but I'm not sure. (Perhaps modding an adventurer reaction that trains appraiser could shed some light on this.)
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 07, 2019, 02:10:56 am
(https://i.imgur.com/KVk7Shx.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/s8MqULh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/IMvORt7.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/oYT9SK0.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/VWDylXp.png)
Awesome job on the updates to the tomb generator for the artifact release, they look beautiful. Im excited to see how you improve them further :)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 07, 2019, 03:53:33 am
Also,
Will the prison sentence system be used for prisoners of war too, or do they get special rules?
Post by: therahedwig on February 07, 2019, 06:51:41 am
(I don't mind too much, as having villains but no law enforcement is a little ridiculous)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 07, 2019, 07:17:18 am
Big Wait had better be really Big after building it up so much though. :D
Post by: therahedwig on February 07, 2019, 08:17:44 am
How do you imagine the upcoming divine law to interact with civ ethics? Do you think it will override civ ethics, modified by civ ethics, or will civ ethics themselves be modified by divine law? Similarly, will Divine law only be what gods communicate to their followers, or will it also include laws from very practical knowledge like 'going into the forest at night will kill you'+'killing yourself is bad'='don't go into the forest at night, we'll imprison your instead'? Or will that be more of a later development?
Post by: Flying Teasets on February 07, 2019, 09:07:04 am
Will waterwells become usable in adventure mode, and will drawing water from them be affected by entity ethics such as trespassing and theft?
With exile implemented, will entities with ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_EXILE be more likely to exile their members instead of beating or imprisoning, and will exiled members be counted as entity members or neutrals for the purposes of ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL?
Will entities gain master persuaders as law enforcers and use them to convert criminals if ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_REPRIMAND is enabled?
Adventure role: Thief on the development page describes several punishments acceptable to an entity with ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:ACCEPTABLE and adjacent; will entities with a low opinion of torture favor social punishments, imprisonment or exile over these?
Is a system for generating personal ethics based on character personality in the works?
Will scholar research topics unlock buildings, reactions and professions, and will the entity list of same define an entities starting knowledge instead of restricting it?
Post by: therahedwig on February 07, 2019, 09:14:03 am
Quote
Will waterwells become usable in adventure mode, and will drawing water from them be affected by entity ethics such as trespassing and theft?Water wells are already usable, you need to use U to interact with them. (Give that nearly nothing else uses U, I cannot blame you for not realizing this) No idea if it'll be considered theft, I suspect not as that would require a better sense of property, wouldn't it? And work on that is planned post mythgen.
Post by: Flying Teasets on February 07, 2019, 09:19:51 am
Huh, thanks for telling me. Do they freeze during winter like the fortress versions?QuoteWill waterwells become usable in adventure mode, and will drawing water from them be affected by entity ethics such as trespassing and theft?Water wells are already usable, you need to use U to interact with them. (Give that nearly nothing else uses U, I cannot blame you for not realizing this) No idea if it'll be considered theft, I suspect not as that would require a better sense of property, wouldn't it? And work on that is planned post mythgen.
Post by: therahedwig on February 07, 2019, 09:31:09 am
Due to snow falling everywhere, I suspect it is actually easier right now to get water in freezing areas right now than in non-freezing areas, though I haven't visited a freezing desert yet.
Post by: Inarius on February 07, 2019, 09:48:37 am
Quote
though I haven't visited a freezing desert yet.
It's white
(don't thank me, it's free 8) )
Post by: Death Dragon on February 07, 2019, 10:56:52 am
Also, well, it turns out vampire wells do still work normally. That Kruggsmash video just didn't have enough goblin blood in it.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 07, 2019, 01:08:22 pm
Also really helps set the stage for mythgen, since it'll inevitably require more narrative mechanics than currently exist. I guess that's part of the point.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 07, 2019, 01:31:40 pm
Will dwarven tunnels get attached aqueducts/cisterns/waterwells at some point?
Not sure where any specific references to this popped up, so i suppose its a suggestion rather than a question. You could say Toady might be open minded to establishing more infrastructure similar for a little cavern tunnelside temple/tavern hidey-hole once the easier above ground roadside sites are done but other projects like deep dwarves and underground architecture of a slightly grander scale are still waiting in devlist.
Time being you can just set up a Tavern in the caverns on a open plateau with a little wood log bridge from the road i suppose yourself.
So i think this really wouldn't be on the horizon until atleast after the terrain re-write and everything is quite comfy and the underground is regenerated to a more contemporary set of worldgen rules (which should hopefully improve chances of better architecture underground)
With exile implemented, will entities with ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_EXILE be more likely to exile their members instead of beating or imprisoning, and will exiled members be counted as entity members or neutrals for the purposes of ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL?
More active justice systems might lead to enforcement but that's for Toady to iron out, the drifters from fortress mode who are exiled inevitably go somewhere to do something. So we can only hope at some stage justice will be a more visible and impactful with petty crimes happening all the while so that 30 odd bored guards don't suddenly decide to give you (adventurer) beatings when you walk off with a sword and forget to pay for it.
Will entities gain master persuaders as law enforcers and use them to convert criminals if ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_REPRIMAND is enabled?
Its been observed that with cheating to skill up a unit they can have legendary persuader and polarise the views of others, im not sure but being able to completely able to flip someone by pressing a arguement while berating them about crime, reinforcing the principles of truth, fairness and justice would be very powerful. So erm, maybe not the question but yes?
Adventure role: Thief on the development page describes several punishments acceptable to an entity with ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:ACCEPTABLE and adjacent; will entities with a low opinion of torture favor social punishments, imprisonment or exile over these?
Is a system for generating personal ethics based on character personality in the works?
To knock these on the head, PERSONAL_MATTER already affects input to ethics, and in the absence of the hardcoded ethics whether they enjoy it or not they might be obliged, by [SANCTIONED_ONLY] (player/leadership input) [REQUIRED] (obligatory) or have the ethical option suspended by use of [NOT_APPLICABLE] like how kobolds don't recognise theft conveniently for them.
There's not a lot of science, but on paper atleast, the ethic responsiblity will be passed onto the least queasy regarding the task unless absolutely nessecary. If you ask a elf to cut a tree, they most probably wont but its not a ethic crime either to do it.
Post by: therahedwig on February 07, 2019, 02:36:37 pm
I wonder what this new "religious tension" is actually going to look like. Riots are super interesting though. I hope they get into fort mode somehow. Having to assign separate temples because of intollerant religion followers starting fist fights?I suspect religious organizations will be able to have enemies much like civs can, and then direct their followers towards attacking those. Or if someone profanes a temple, then all of the followers will be offended, and the profaners' friends get involved, and then a riot breaks out.
It amazes me with each new devlog how much of a leap this release is making towards player ability to tell actual, coherent stories that don't require a huge amount of subjective interpretation. We've still got a long way to go, of course, but all these new features are still awesome and way more than I ever expected we'd get in the game for a while yet to come.The usual complaint about bad open world games is that they feel 'empty and dead'. For my current world, adventure mode feels 'alive but empty', which I think is super impressive all things considered. I am wondering to what extend this update will make things feel less empty though, like, on one hand there's more happening, but one of the things that frustrates me is that it's kind of hard to converse with given histfigs. Like, going up to a refugee it's really hard to ask them why they're fleeing, where they're heading, or even how they feel about having to flee. Nor can I ask about where the army is, or where anyone relevant is.
Also really helps set the stage for mythgen, since it'll inevitably require more narrative mechanics than currently exist. I guess that's part of the point.
And I suspect that this is also partially caused by the knowledge inheritance relationship between entity and histfig not being great yet, which wouldn't be addressed until the law release. But in the meantime, I hope to see a bit more improvement to the conversation system so I can discover legends stuff as an adventurer, and you know, actually make a difference. (Last time I 'made a difference' was when I recruited heartspeople from a town that was being attacked, which meant that the town didn't have enough militia commanders and thus they got conquered two weeks later. Funny, but not intentional.)
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 07, 2019, 02:49:25 pm
Post by: therahedwig on February 07, 2019, 04:03:30 pm
Weirdly enough the thing that it breaks down on is learning from your prison mates about a fabulous treasure and being able to style yourself 'Count' afterwards.
Post by: Mort Stroodle on February 07, 2019, 06:00:59 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 07, 2019, 11:12:37 pm
If a spy (either Adventurer or histfig) takes on the identity of a curse-giving god worshipper, would they get cursed by the god after knocking down its statues (Ha! Fooled you. Now I'm a weresloth...) or just cause religious unrest?
Can villains falsely accuse other people of temple desecration if there were no witnesses?
Post by: Hapchazzard on February 08, 2019, 08:32:18 pm
In general, when the spatial mechanics behind boats are implemented, do you expect it to be as revolutionary as the addition of the Z-layer? I've just mentioned city layout, but I only now realize how different DF worlds would be in general if they weren't basically locked in a grid
((May add more questions later))
Post by: Bumber on February 09, 2019, 01:01:51 am
This is completely unrelated to anything in the near future, but a quick question about village/city layouts. Right now villages and cities are organized in neat squares, like a 1930s Soviet apartment block. Obviously, medieval cities (and villages especially) tended to have much more chaotic layouts, with buildings frequently having odd angles between them, streets curving and twisting, etc. I assume that the problems behind implementing such building generation are very similar to the problem with boats?(non-90 degree angles being difficult to simulate with the current graphical system)Last I head, boats are still going to be locked to the grid.
In general, when the spatial mechanics behind boats are implemented, do you expect it to be as revolutionary as the addition of the Z-layer? I've just mentioned city layout, but I only now realize how different DF worlds would be in general if they weren't basically locked in a grid
((May add more questions later))
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 09, 2019, 04:22:26 am
Yes, there's nothing indicating the map rewrite (or the boat introduction) will do away with the underlying grid system on the lowest level as such. There's enough work to adjust everything else... Also, a higher resolution lowest level grid would result in an FPS penalty in the form of increased path finding costs as well as processing for vegetation, water flow, etc. That said, it might be possible to introduce some kind of internal local grid for workshop zones for equipment placement purposes (this is a pure speculation on my part, but would be handy for stockpiles as well: one (bag of) seed doesn't really require 4 square meters...).This is completely unrelated to anything in the near future, but a quick question about village/city layouts. Right now villages and cities are organized in neat squares, like a 1930s Soviet apartment block. Obviously, medieval cities (and villages especially) tended to have much more chaotic layouts, with buildings frequently having odd angles between them, streets curving and twisting, etc. I assume that the problems behind implementing such building generation are very similar to the problem with boats?(non-90 degree angles being difficult to simulate with the current graphical system)Last I head, boats are still going to be locked to the grid.
In general, when the spatial mechanics behind boats are implemented, do you expect it to be as revolutionary as the addition of the Z-layer? I've just mentioned city layout, but I only now realize how different DF worlds would be in general if they weren't basically locked in a grid
((May add more questions later))
Post by: Hapchazzard on February 09, 2019, 09:54:55 am
Post by: therahedwig on February 09, 2019, 11:08:08 am
Quote from: PC Gamer interview
For us, the problems are just technical at first. How do you do the directions the boats are going in ASCII? You have a few choices. I know Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead, this zombie roguelike, they have these cars and stuff you can make and drive around, and they take the rectangle and shear it, so that it looks kind of weird, but the seats are still connected. For me, there's too many mechanics going on to kill the geometry that way. If two people were wrestling diagonally across those two car seats, when it turned they'd no longer be adjacent.Source (https://www.pcgamer.com/why-the-creator-of-dwarf-fortress-is-really-excited-about-boats/)
There's a million little problems like that that basically boil down to, you can point your boat in four directions. The geometry is intact. But that doesn't mean your boat needs to go four directions. You could have it going on a pretty smooth vector, up-up-over, whatever, and then the only problem becomes the pop when you get up to 45 [degrees]. Suddenly it turns. If we do pretty big boats, they might displace one tile of water. Maybe it depends on how much cargo is in there, who knows. Then when they pop, there might be fish or mer-people over here who get whacked. Do they just teleport, or get pushed? What if there's no room to push them because you're near a dock?
I feel like the problems all have solutions. There's a sliding scale of acceptability to your solution, and I think they're mostly okay. There will be some weird things where certain mer-people get scrunched. The real problem with this is if you're not controlling the boat, and you're the player, and you get scrunched. Like if a Dwarf Fortress is on the beach, you set up this whole cove where boats can come in and dock and unload stuff, all really cool stuff, right, but then you have dwarves messing around in the water and then a boat turns the wrong way and all your dwarves are catapulted out into space... There will be little problems, and we'll just roll with it.
So the real worry is to make sure the player/their dwarves don't get atom-smashed by boats when they do the 'pop' going from one cardinal direction to the next.
Post by: Eric Blank on February 09, 2019, 07:56:06 pm
I guess you won't know yet as it's kind of edge-case, but...
If a spy (either Adventurer or histfig) takes on the identity of a curse-giving god worshipper, would they get cursed by the god after knocking down its statues (Ha! Fooled you. Now I'm a weresloth...) or just cause religious unrest?
Can villains falsely accuse other people of temple desecration if there were no witnesses?
Relatedly, will anyone at all care about temple desecration in the coming update? Can priests or worshippers of a religion come to hate someone who desecrates their temple? Like spit on/refuse to talk to them or become aggressive? Right now nobody cares how many statues you knock over, and it is kinda weird.
Post by: RobotFighter7 on February 10, 2019, 02:28:09 am
When the subject of seizing position-holders as prisoners is addressed, do you intend to allow the captors to ransom the prisoners, or will they just be locked away for now?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 10, 2019, 03:14:43 am
Dev notes say interrogation, prisoner trades, executions and release.
When the subject of seizing position-holders as prisoners is addressed, do you intend to allow the captors to ransom the prisoners, or will they just be locked away for now?
Post by: Death Dragon on February 10, 2019, 05:07:05 am
I hope to see a bit more improvement to the conversation system so I can discover legends stuff as an adventurer, and you know, actually make a difference. (Last time I 'made a difference' was when I recruited heartspeople from a town that was being attacked, which meant that the town didn't have enough militia commanders and thus they got conquered two weeks later. Funny, but not intentional.)I agree that the conversation system's clunkyness is probably one of adventure mode's bigger problems currently, making it harder for new people to get into the game.
The addition of the Q quest log was great though and it looks like the villain update will add some new stuff to conversations, like "Can ask about specific opportunities" and "Ability to ask after artifacts" as well as whatever is necessary for the villainy investigation stuff "Receiving tips and rumors (both modes)".
Interesting, while looking this up on the development page, I noticed that it has apparently been updated:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Nice to see a whole lot more purple on there.
... who prefer to fight mounted ...A mercenary cavalry unit would be amazing.
Post by: CorkNite on February 11, 2019, 07:44:04 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 11, 2019, 07:45:53 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on February 12, 2019, 04:32:27 am
Will the Myth and Magic update add new structures into the game? And if so, what might they be?Hopefully all current structures and sites will survive the transition past the map rewrite.
Post by: therahedwig on February 12, 2019, 07:36:07 am
Given that wizard towers will be generalized and improved necromancer towers, I kinda think the question still stands on what else might be tackled :) Though I suspect we might just get a 'he he he', given vaults and slate fortresses in the past.
Post by: Death Dragon on February 12, 2019, 08:17:28 am
Would there be a chance that the same could happen when you decline a visitor's petition request or do they currently not care about it either way when you decline those?
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 12, 2019, 10:51:48 am
Post by: scourge728 on February 12, 2019, 12:08:17 pm
EDIT: Also: Since it's a common trope, are Gods creating demigods by breeding with civilized races planned?
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 12, 2019, 12:56:31 pm
It's planned that, when you expel someone, the person will remember that negatively and if they have villainous tendencies, they might want to take revenge on you in some way, right?Currently they don't care: they return again and again to petition... Each time they're dejected to some degree based on personality, as per usual, so I guess that eventually they may go bonkers for petition rejection stress (some do that even on the first rejection currently).
Would there be a chance that the same could happen when you decline a visitor's petition request or do they currently not care about it either way when you decline those?
Post by: Grand Sage on February 12, 2019, 02:51:22 pm
Now that marriage and dating has been expanded, will we see an entity level value for things like adultery?
EDIT: Also: Since it's a common trope, are Gods creating demigods by breeding with civilized races planned?
well, adventure mode already has the demigod "class", if i may call it that. But that is just a placeholder for a better adv system anyway. and they aren't actual decendents from the gods...
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 12, 2019, 04:24:05 pm
Post by: Rubik on February 13, 2019, 09:26:11 am
I know that torture, even if it makes in as a feature, won't be playable in fort mode because dwarves don't torture, because of their ethics but:
1-Will we get to do it in some way in adventure mode? maybe if you play as a villain, it'd make sense as an intimidation/blackmail thing
2-I've been a great fan of LCS for many years, do you envision the way DF is gonna handle torture as a job , in a similar way to how it was treated in LCS? Does it give you ideas on how to procede with that?
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 13, 2019, 09:34:14 am
Post by: therahedwig on February 13, 2019, 01:11:06 pm
(Can we, like, have a nice action introduced in whatever release torture is introduced? Like, the ability to pet animals or fluffy wambler breeding or something like that.)
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 13, 2019, 01:17:53 pm
Of course, I guess interrogation isn't necessarily the same thing as torture.
Post by: therahedwig on February 13, 2019, 01:54:22 pm
There's also a nice diverse list of possible punishments in the thief section, but again, no idea how much we'll see those given the law system is a bit barebones.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 13, 2019, 03:50:42 pm
Yes, and interrogations will be necessary, because otherwise villains are a bit OP. But again, given how DF works, maybe interrogations will mostly consist of 'hey bro, you did this?' and the villain in question always answering 'yup, together with this person in another town'.I imagine that eventually we will see them all.
There's also a nice diverse list of possible punishments in the thief section, but again, no idea how much we'll see those given the law system is a bit barebones.
About interrogations, you would obviously have to make them yield first before actually interrogating, not just, like, asking. Like you have to do for robbing people right now, you make them yield then demand they drop their weapons and the various items you want.
So for interrogations you probably, would make them yield, then be like ("hey did you do this", "who are you working for", etc.)
Post by: iceball3 on February 13, 2019, 11:22:00 pm
In the event a player can theoretically commit embezzlement, will performing the act be an explicit manuever that provides one with context of the material ownership, or implicit based on appropriated wares and claims placed on that capital?
Do you plan to implement any jurisdictional forces/association/positions/etc who's task will be to assess ongoing losses and encourage investigations? Or does the bookkeeper largely fill this role in terms of speculative fleshing out of this feature?
Post by: ArmokGoB on February 13, 2019, 11:47:34 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 14, 2019, 04:33:09 am
So, just how worked up can religious people get? Are we going to see escalation up to the point of crusades against an opposing religion's holy city?
Post by: therahedwig on February 14, 2019, 06:45:01 am
I wonder how much of this we'll see acted out. Like, I can see riots looking like insurrections(all histfigs run around like headless chickens), but feeding people to beasts and preaching... I guess preaching could use the performance framework, and we're proly going to see formal executions this cycle still if the prisoners stuff is fully worked out. Hopefully we can ask histfigs about entities like religions and get to hear from them whether there's religious tension or not.
Are villains able to use chaotic situations like riots and insurrections as a distraction while they act out their plans(stealing/assassinating/marching the army into town)?
Post by: Death Dragon on February 14, 2019, 10:39:44 am
What exactly caused the persecution of the Occult Coven by Stodir? Did he actually hate that religious group in some way or was it just greed plus some random chance?
Can other entity types also become persecuted in ways like this? Corporations, monastic orders, etc? Is it strictly for religious groups for now or could some greedy ruler confiscate the possesions of a corporation, for example?
Some other things I was wondering about these new non-civ entities:
Are entities like corporations, religions, mercenary companies always linked to a parent civilisation or are they separate? When a mercenary company purchases equipment, do they get it from their parent civilisation? So, would a dwarven merc company have access to steel equipment, while a human one does not?
Post by: Inarius on February 15, 2019, 03:05:49 am
Will we be able to see and visit ruins of a destroyed temple ?
Will we be able to "ask" something like "what is this destroyed building" ? to people ?
Will we be able, as an adventurer, to witness riots ? And will we be able to take part on it without messing with loyalty system ? (attackings citizens based on religious differences without turning the whole city against us)
Post by: Death Dragon on February 15, 2019, 08:43:23 am
These are already in the game, right? I play adventure mode only very rarely, but you can travel to ruins and talk to your companions about them, no?
Will we be able to see and visit ruins of a destroyed temple ?
Will we be able to "ask" something like "what is this destroyed building" ? to people ?
Post by: therahedwig on February 15, 2019, 09:13:15 am
I had it once that I was traveling in this town, and it was a super small town, but it had a tavern, a library, a keep, a market, an active temple and a ruined temple... and two houses. It was a little weird, but it does confirm you can visit ruined temples in adventure mode already.
EDIT: I am trying to remember, has anyone ever seen a military invasion/raid on a town in adventure mode? I've seen insurrections before, which I imagine riots would look like, as well as ambushes and traveling armies, but never invasions and raids.
(Was also thinking the same thing about megabeasts, but then remembered megabeasts don't do adventure mode movement yet.)
EDIT2: It seems invasions usually just place camps around the city attacked?
Post by: Eric Blank on February 15, 2019, 12:20:14 pm
Why dont bard troupes have a patron deity? Thats totally a thing irl, for example in greek traditional theatre it was all dedicated to that one god...
Post by: therahedwig on February 15, 2019, 01:48:18 pm
That said, patron saints and gods are definitely a thing, but perhaps something for the suggestion forum?
Post by: CorkNite on February 17, 2019, 02:17:20 pm
1. What kinds of creatures might they bring into the world? Will they be relatively normal, or completely alien?
2. Will megabeasts come out of the portals?
3. Will the portals bring items into the world? And if so, what kind?
4. What realms are these portals connected to? Are they afterlifes, or different dimensions entirely?
5. Will the player be able to open them in Fortress mode?
6. How will these portals affect magic and creation myths?
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 17, 2019, 04:12:35 pm
I have some questions about one-way portals:1. A portal may connect point in the same world, different world, and different "dimensions/realms", so anything from completely mundane to completely bizarre is possible. What will be implemented in the first pass (where one dimensional ones are implemented) probably depends on what Toady comes up with at the time, i.e. he probably doesn't have anything fixed yet.
1. What kinds of creatures might they bring into the world? Will they be relatively normal, or completely alien?
2. Will megabeasts come out of the portals?
3. Will the portals bring items into the world? And if so, what kind?
4. What realms are these portals connected to? Are they afterlifes, or different dimensions entirely?
5. Will the player be able to open them in Fortress mode?
6. How will these portals affect magic and creation myths?
2. Quite possible, and it may also be a god/eldritch horror that's tricked mages into releasing it into the world...
3. Some kind of item and resource yielding portals have been discussed in the past, I think. What you may get depends on where the other end of the portal is (and what's implemented in the first pass)...
4. See 1.
5. Yes, eventually. Whether that will be implemented in the first pass or not remains to be seen, but it would probably be implemented early.
6. It would presumably be the other way around, i.e. the portal magic available and the external "planes" portal may connect to depends on what magic and "planes" myth gen comes up with.
Also note that one way portals aren't anything special in themselves, but rather a special case of portals that's easier to implement than the two way version (as that would require DF to handle two locations concurrently, which requires extra work. An early two way portal implementation might work similar to raiding does currently, though, i.e. squads are just sent through the portal to do their thing and then return with a report [or fail to return...]).
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 17, 2019, 04:25:07 pm
I have some questions about one-way portals:1. A portal may connect point in the same world, different world, and different "dimensions/realms", so anything from completely mundane to completely bizarre is possible. What will be implemented in the first pass (where one dimensional ones are implemented) probably depends on what Toady comes up with at the time, i.e. he probably doesn't have anything fixed yet.
1. What kinds of creatures might they bring into the world? Will they be relatively normal, or completely alien?
2. Will megabeasts come out of the portals?
3. Will the portals bring items into the world? And if so, what kind?
4. What realms are these portals connected to? Are they afterlifes, or different dimensions entirely?
5. Will the player be able to open them in Fortress mode?
6. How will these portals affect magic and creation myths?
2. Quite possible, and it may also be a god/eldritch horror that's tricked mages into releasing it into the world...
3. Some kind of item and resource yielding portals have been discussed in the past, I think. What you may get depends on where the other end of the portal is (and what's implemented in the first pass)...
4. See 1.
5. Yes, eventually. Whether that will be implemented in the first pass or not remains to be seen, but it would probably be implemented early.
6. It would presumably be the other way around, i.e. the portal magic available and the external "planes" portal may connect to depends on what magic and "planes" myth gen comes up with.
Also note that one way portals aren't anything special in themselves, but rather a special case of portals that's easier to implement than the two way version (as that would require DF to handle two locations concurrently, which requires extra work. An early two way portal implementation might work similar to raiding does currently, though, i.e. squads are just sent through the portal to do their thing and then return with a report [or fail to return...]).
In DF talk toady specifically said he really wants to have afterlives and portals to afterlives. And not necessarily even one afterlife per world, each civilized creature might have their own afterlife dimension.
And this is in addition to having other weird planes you can go to.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 17, 2019, 10:32:13 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1. Is it planned to reword or remove the "You are a killer" bit when you ask people about your reputation in adventure mode? Being a legendary hero, or legendary hunter, or murderer, already implies you killed something, so why do the NPC's need to tell you "you are a legendary hero you killed x, you are also a killer you killed x", i've been playing adventure mode for years, and i've noticed that people who are new to adventure mode tend to misunderstand what that means , they think the NPC is being accusatory or some such when they say "you are a killer" (since people tend to think that is synonymous with "You are a murderer" when in the game that is not the case) but to the game this literally just means "you are capable of killing things". Why not drop that part, or reword it to something less jarring/redundant? Is there a technical hurdle? Or do you think its fine? Or do you plan to change it?
2. Any plans to flesh out the reputation system (or add new types of reputations, or display NPC reputations (other then enemy) in legends mode.) in general in the next few updates, such as displaying player reputation info in the Quest log?
And a more fun question:
3. Given how many patrons/donators you have now, how do you handle the logistics of drawing all those crayon drawings and writing all those stories? Is this writing basically a full time job for Zach at this point? The story bits you guys send out are all very well made, so he must put alot of thought into each And writing what could easily be hundreds of stories at a time must be quite the challenge.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 18, 2019, 12:25:11 am
Quote
And a more fun question:Evidence from Twitter that Zach's not locked in a basement by himself with a box of crayons:
3. Given how many patrons/donators you have now, how do you handle the logistics of drawing all those crayon drawings and writing all those stories? Is this writing basically a full time job for Zach at this point? The story bits you guys send out are all very well made, so he must put alot of thought into each And writing what could easily be hundreds of stories at a time must be quite the challenge.
https://twitter.com/theothertuklus/status/980606473259532288?s=09
Post by: Death Dragon on February 18, 2019, 03:54:50 pm
You can see your repution in your thoughts screen, right? True that it should probably be moved to some easier to find place.
2. Any plans to flesh out the reputation system (or add new types of reputations, or display NPC reputations (other then enemy) in legends mode.) in general in the next few updates, such as displaying player reputation info in the Quest log?
Post by: Beag on February 18, 2019, 04:15:34 pm
2. Seeing as mercenary companies can be religious might some of them set goals such as killing non believers or driving them out?
3. Would defacing an opposing religions temples be a possible quest priests might give the player in this coming update?
4. If the player adopts a disguise that specifies another deity as their object of worship might they be able to fool the established religion so they can avoid persecution?
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 18, 2019, 10:32:37 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 18, 2019, 10:33:55 pm
You can see your repution in your thoughts screen, right? True that it should probably be moved to some easier to find place.
2. Any plans to flesh out the reputation system (or add new types of reputations, or display NPC reputations (other then enemy) in legends mode.) in general in the next few updates, such as displaying player reputation info in the Quest log?
I don't believe you can see your reputation in the thoughts screen.
EDIT:
no you cannot.
(https://i.imgur.com/JMFOPm4.png)
Post by: Death Dragon on February 19, 2019, 01:33:02 pm
Post by: Flying Teasets on February 20, 2019, 11:07:03 am
Post by: Bumber on February 20, 2019, 04:25:32 pm
Will rock salt ever become an edible item?Sounds more like a suggestion than a question.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 20, 2019, 06:36:42 pm
Will rock salt ever become an edible item?
That could be modded in relatively easily, via including a reaction to convert the boulder into some quantity of some other item that's compatible with cooking, and in turn give rock salt the [EDIBLE_COOKED] token to facilitate it. Note that if the form it's converted to is solid, there's no real mechanism to stop you from cooking nothing but salt...
Post by: therahedwig on February 21, 2019, 08:49:01 am
Actually, this should go really well with the extending of night creatures. I recall proper haunted houses being discussed during the talks.
(Also very amused at the worldgen bug in the first paragraph)
Are only towers capable of being restructured, or also houses? Like, will we see opulent villas as well as opulent towers?
Post by: neutrino431 on February 21, 2019, 10:28:13 am
Post by: Urist McVoyager on February 21, 2019, 10:29:32 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 21, 2019, 11:27:27 am
I know we won't be able to tap directly into accounts ourselves, but will we be able to set an official to embezzling for us and receive things like bags of gems or local coinage as a representation?
I woudnt put it beyond toady to let players open accounts.
And as a side note:
1.Will player adventurers be able to buy houses/towers/upgrade them after like the world gen folks can as of the recent dev log?
2.Even if not how will those places and their upgrades carry into play, will the villains tower actually have all the upgrades they bought, will you give them proper maps, will a tower that bought a wall/fortification/dungeon/other upgrade of some kind actually have them for players to deal with (the villain has a tower with a wall so you have to climb the wall to get in the tower, for example)?
3. If they have maps, how much variation will there be so each tower has its own feel?
Is this a preclude to all your ideas for adventurer thievery one of those goals as stated in the dev page:
"Mansions/villas out of the way as well" for them to steal from
And for the merchant role as stated in the dev page:
"Renting/buying cottages and other properties"
Because if so thats amazing. Take all the time you need because whats coming is exciting.
Would be pretty neat to buy my own villa or tower...
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 21, 2019, 02:13:21 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 21, 2019, 04:51:28 pm
Why dont demons go on a rampage throughout the world once you release them or at least do more then just hang around your site? And why do mummies disappear when you leave the site, wouldnt it be much more simulations/interesting if they actually stuck around? It just seems odd given the other features in the game which are far more simulationist and kinda clashes with the reality of the situation.If something is missing it means it hasn't been made yet. Especially in Adventurer which is far less developed than Fortress mode so far.
Post by: Bad_Goblin on February 21, 2019, 04:57:14 pm
If so, would this form of magic somehow be implemented into the engraving and magic skills? (In the sense that creating a rune would require knowledge in the engraving skill in order to carve the rune into an object, as well as the proper experience in magic to imbue power into the rune.) Or would "Rune Crafting" have it's own skill(s) entirely to differentiate itself?
Lastly, What uses could rune magic have?
(For example: Could magic runes carved onto a weapon/piece of armor give said item special properties such as a rune engraved weapon now causing fire damage or have it deal harder hits in general? Could a rune engraved on a Helmet grant it a better chance at shrugging off blows? As another example, could engraving a rune on an object like a door make it so that it can only be opened by one with sufficient magical knowledge/skill? Or could magical runes be used as a form of "trap" engraved on a tile that could cause a lethal property to activate, for instance say, engulf the tile in flames if a specific creature (ex: a goblin or filthy elf) stepped on it?)
I might be going out on a limb or a tangent here that could quite possibly belong in the suggestions thread, but if something like this was ever implemented it could add a whole new depth for dwarfs interacting with objects as well as their environment.
Post by: falcc on February 21, 2019, 05:32:38 pm
2)Can a group of bandits lie (since lying about identities is in) and say they're from a mercenary group in order to cause strife between two groups?
3)How likely is it embezzled goods will be encounterable in sites where it's being delivered in play?
4) Will players be able to show up to somebody's house with a horse strapped full of treasure like the Count of Monte Cristo and try to trade for their house before the big wait? If so will house owners take into account artifacts they don't know about in the cost? Will they take their furniture with them if you don't pay enough for it furnished or would that be too goofy?
5)Will villains stash their non-artifact abstract accounts in their houses in secret if their family doesn't know about how they got them?
6)Will villains that value family be more likely to tell someone they stole a cool artifact in their will? Will they be more likely to tell their family they have money or items without revealing its source if they don't trust them to bring them in on villainy?
7)Will more ostentatious villains dress their family and lackeys up fancier the way mercenary groups can equip others?
8)Will haunted furniture night creatures make it in before the big wait?
9) Will people on the street be talking about how "so and so really hit it off at the slots" even if we don't get gambling in play? Will people otherwise comment on unexpected windfalls, expansions being built on large buildings in town, or other signs of the ups and downs of local historical figure's fortunes?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 21, 2019, 06:04:32 pm
For the Myth and Myth Release will magic also be found in the form of runes? In many different fantasy settings dwarfs have a great affinity for "rune magic", will we ever see this in Dwarf Fortress as well?Rune magic has been asked about and mostly confirmed in this thread before. I think if you do a search for runes you should find a previous answer from not so long ago.
If so, would this form of magic somehow be implemented into the engraving and magic skills? (In the sense that creating a rune would require knowledge in the engraving skill in order to carve the rune into an object, as well as the proper experience in magic to imbue power into the rune.) Or would "Rune Crafting" have it's own skill(s) entirely to differentiate itself?
Lastly, What uses could rune magic have?
(For example: Could magic runes carved onto a weapon/piece of armor give said item special properties such as a rune engraved weapon now causing fire damage or have it deal harder hits in general? Could a rune engraved on a Helmet grant it a better chance at shrugging off blows? As another example, could engraving a rune on an object like a door make it so that it can only be opened by one with sufficient magical knowledge/skill? Or could magical runes be used as a form of "trap" engraved on a tile that could cause a lethal property to activate, for instance say, engulf the tile in flames if a specific creature (ex: a goblin or filthy elf) stepped on it?)
I might be going out on a limb or a tangent here that could quite possibly belong in the suggestions thread, but if something like this was ever implemented it could add a whole new depth for dwarfs interacting with objects as well as their environment.
--edit
Oh, like this one to start with. There's others too I think.
Quote
4. Traditionally, wizard magic is a big no no for dwarves. Do you think we'll be able to make dwarf wizards anyway on our forts, if we want to?
Toady's reply:
4. It depends on what you mean and the settings for that world. "Geomancers" and "Rune <X>ers" are common dwarf 'wizard' types that aren't closely linked to the more-often-used priest powers. Then there's the more traditional links to magical item production, which is a sort of magic. The more vanilla settings will lean this way, toward 'dwarfy' magics, I suspect. Others will allow more arbitrary research and spell opportunities. Even in the vanilla settings, doing things like exploring runes and the powers of the earth would be on the table as research-style possibilities.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 21, 2019, 06:15:33 pm
1)
8)Will haunted furniture night creatures make it in before the big wait?
Haunted houses with haunted furniture have been planned since he first added night creatures, so at some point they will make it in, but i doubt he will get sidetracked and suddenly do another push on night creatures right before starting on the magic update so its unlikely. (It would be cool though, now that villas and such are a thing)
(He talks about it on the night creature df talk)
http://www.bay12games.com/media/Dwarf_Fortress_Talk_14.mp3
Post by: Bad_Goblin on February 21, 2019, 11:08:15 pm
Wow, that's pretty cool info! Thank you for digging through the thread and finding this answer from toady, I'll have to go back and do a bit of digging myself and see if I can find anything else related to dwarf magic and runes.For the Myth and Myth Release will magic also be found in the form of runes? In many different fantasy settings dwarfs have a great affinity for "rune magic", will we ever see this in Dwarf Fortress as well?Rune magic has been asked about and mostly confirmed in this thread before. I think if you do a search for runes you should find a previous answer from not so long ago.
If so, would this form of magic somehow be implemented into the engraving and magic skills? (In the sense that creating a rune would require knowledge in the engraving skill in order to carve the rune into an object, as well as the proper experience in magic to imbue power into the rune.) Or would "Rune Crafting" have it's own skill(s) entirely to differentiate itself?
Lastly, What uses could rune magic have?
(For example: Could magic runes carved onto a weapon/piece of armor give said item special properties such as a rune engraved weapon now causing fire damage or have it deal harder hits in general? Could a rune engraved on a Helmet grant it a better chance at shrugging off blows? As another example, could engraving a rune on an object like a door make it so that it can only be opened by one with sufficient magical knowledge/skill? Or could magical runes be used as a form of "trap" engraved on a tile that could cause a lethal property to activate, for instance say, engulf the tile in flames if a specific creature (ex: a goblin or filthy elf) stepped on it?)
I might be going out on a limb or a tangent here that could quite possibly belong in the suggestions thread, but if something like this was ever implemented it could add a whole new depth for dwarfs interacting with objects as well as their environment.
--edit
Oh, like this one to start with. There's others too I think.Quote4. Traditionally, wizard magic is a big no no for dwarves. Do you think we'll be able to make dwarf wizards anyway on our forts, if we want to?
Toady's reply:
4. It depends on what you mean and the settings for that world. "Geomancers" and "Rune <X>ers" are common dwarf 'wizard' types that aren't closely linked to the more-often-used priest powers. Then there's the more traditional links to magical item production, which is a sort of magic. The more vanilla settings will lean this way, toward 'dwarfy' magics, I suspect. Others will allow more arbitrary research and spell opportunities. Even in the vanilla settings, doing things like exploring runes and the powers of the earth would be on the table as research-style possibilities.
Post by: Urist McVoyager on February 22, 2019, 09:46:11 am
Why dont demons go on a rampage throughout the world once you release them or at least do more then just hang around your site? And why do mummies disappear when you leave the site, wouldnt it be much more simulations/interesting if they actually stuck around? It just seems odd given the other features in the game which are far more simulationist and kinda clashes with the reality of the situation.
Toady's talked about this in the past. Right now it's intentional for demons to stay put because he doesn't want a mistake in one fort to make the rest of the world almost unplayable. I mean, imagine your frustration if the literally endless horde of demons invaded the rest of the world. You start a fortress and by year two a pack of demons forces you to turtle. And it keeps happening in every fort. Or you're out in adventure mode and a demon catches up to you before you're a one-person army and kills you. And that keeps happening . . .
Post by: Egan_BW on February 22, 2019, 10:20:32 am
I'm saying that this is a self-solving problem.
Post by: Robsoie on February 22, 2019, 11:36:39 am
Post by: George_Chickens on February 22, 2019, 12:13:23 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 22, 2019, 01:17:55 pm
Quote
Being raised a goblin, Bax was a natural for villainyJust pointing this out, but this is implicit support for the (statistically false) political notion that refugees are dangerous.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on February 22, 2019, 01:36:45 pm
QuoteBeing raised a goblin, Bax was a natural for villainyJust pointing this out, but this is implicit support for the (statistically false) political notion that refugees are dangerous.
It's more an effect of the system right now where a character raised in a certain civilization automatically adopts the civ's values and such. Goblins are designed to be natural villains for this setting, thus their values and personality traits are geared towards that inclination. And because of their babysnatching, you get characters of other races that have their values too. And when goblins grow up in non-goblin civs, they have their birth civ's values. So, not quite. Plus the dev log wasn't talking about a refugee but a wandering dancer who was traveling of their own free will outside of their home nation.
That and as PatrikLundell says below trying to project onto a game isn't too productive.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 22, 2019, 01:42:36 pm
No, it's not, unless you subscribe to the notion that the people of the countries are fleeing from are, by their "racial" nature bent towards evil. The real world has no Goblins (or any Dwarven race either, for that matter). Trying to project fantasy onto the real world (or vice versa) is not a fruitful venture.QuoteBeing raised a goblin, Bax was a natural for villainyJust pointing this out, but this is implicit support for the (statistically false) political notion that refugees are dangerous.
Post by: Eric Blank on February 22, 2019, 02:34:07 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 22, 2019, 02:48:18 pm
I sure hope he'll revise his position then, there's a lot of potential fun in trying to build and protect the last remnant of dwarven kingdom in a world that the demons are invading, without even mentionning the fun in adventure mode.
Well yeah, and the player brought it upon themselves, that is an actual effect on the world. Much like horrible magical accidents that make a whole region evil. Like, that would be fun, I want that.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 22, 2019, 02:51:01 pm
QuoteBeing raised a goblin, Bax was a natural for villainyJust pointing this out, but this is implicit support for the (statistically false) political notion that refugees are dangerous.
Given the status of goblin civilizations in DF and the fact that a lot of the histfigs changing civs do so seemingly because they can, it's arguably closer in implication to the "post-war German hiding in Argentina" thing than modern scenarios...
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 22, 2019, 03:05:12 pm
QuoteBeing raised a goblin, Bax was a natural for villainyJust pointing this out, but this is implicit support for the (statistically false) political notion that refugees are dangerous.
Given the status of goblin civilizations in DF and the fact that a lot of the histfigs changing civs do so seemingly because they can, it's arguably closer in implication to the "post-war German hiding in Argentina" thing than modern scenarios...
There was a thread that was locked that talked about refugees awhile back.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169380.0
Toady tries to avoid problematic things in his game (eg, you cant ban goblins from your tavern, it represents lgbtq people etc.) but as alot of people are responding, its a game, and an incomplete game at that, the current way values work is they have their civs values as a baase (and its somewhat randomized which values they actually have, as you can see when creating your adventurer, you never exactly align with your culture, and sometimes dont even closely align with your culture or align with your culture at all, you just skew towards your culture slightly) and those values can "mutate" with experiences and they can change based on new civs they go to etc.) so i think he shows that he doesn't support that refugee stereotype in other aspects of his game, in fact his game shows the opposite, that peoples values don't necessarily align with their civilization at all, and everyone is an individual, and you cant generalize. So i feel like this conversation is unproductive, and is simply a person misconstruing toady's implementation.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 22, 2019, 03:11:13 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 22, 2019, 03:13:08 pm
Post by: Beag on February 22, 2019, 05:36:00 pm
2. Will special owned buildings be exclusive to massive sites like cities or can smaller sites like towns have them as well? I ask this because it takes a lot longer for cities to form than towns during world gen.
3. If our player adventurers can join mercenary organizations and said organization owns a building will our adventurer gain permission to sleep in that building?
4. Will buildings owned by organizations contain items related to the type of organization that owns the building? For example would a building owned by a mercenary order contain spare weapons and armor?
Post by: therahedwig on February 22, 2019, 06:35:23 pm
1. Can you list all the new types of buildings we will be seeing in large human sites in this next release?1. Trade outposts, guild halls, town-towers, shrines. Temples, libraries, markets and taverns already existed. So did keeps. Monasteries/Merchant forts/Bandit forts/Castles are new sites which can contain these things. There might be more coming depending on what will get done with prisoners.
2. Will special owned buildings be exclusive to massive sites like cities or can smaller sites like towns have them as well? I ask this because it takes a lot longer for cities to form than towns during world gen.
3. If our player adventurers can join mercenary organizations and said organization owns a building will our adventurer gain permission to sleep in that building?
4. Will buildings owned by organizations contain items related to the type of organization that owns the building? For example would a building owned by a mercenary order contain spare weapons and armor?
2. There's only towns and hamlets, terminologically speaking. :p I suspect the owned buildings and shrines might pop up in hamlets, and the rest in towns. I suspect this because towns are created by worldgen as a nexus for several hamlets to trade with, so there's a lot of money there. On the other hand, some of these new buildings are controlled by entities other than the site government... hm...
3. I'd think so, that's how it works for heartspeople, no?
4. I think this would happen too, sites are already pretty good about tracking the kind of resources they ought to have, such as towns having the proper products(ever visited a market?), and necromancer towers being filled with books.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 22, 2019, 06:40:48 pm
Post by: therahedwig on February 22, 2019, 06:59:00 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 22, 2019, 07:11:00 pm
Post by: Schmaven on February 22, 2019, 08:18:41 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 22, 2019, 08:35:08 pm
What sort of details do you have in mind for dungeons? Bone piles and torturous instruments? The only elaborations I imagine are like those from the Act I Jail dungeons under the Rogue Monastery in Diablo II.
Remember to make your questions lime green, i fixed it for you ^^
Post by: Bumber on February 23, 2019, 12:40:47 pm
What sort of details do you have in mind for dungeons? Bone piles and torturous instruments?You mean like bagpipes? :P
Post by: Death Dragon on February 24, 2019, 08:01:50 am
A while ago in this devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2018-12-07), you talked about how the infrastructure of a site can affect and change the population. Do you have an ability like this planned for libraries in the short term, too? For example, them being able to change the moral values of the site population based on what kind of books are stored in it?
Post by: therahedwig on February 24, 2019, 10:50:02 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 24, 2019, 12:15:04 pm
I am wondering if that may not already be in? Given that value changing books are really really rare in worldgen. All the libraries I've been to at the least were filled with academic books, never found a poem, history or value arguing book.
Ive seen plenty of value changing books
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 24, 2019, 06:34:35 pm
Or at least that's what would make sense to me, honestly have relatively little idea how this stuff works. :P
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 24, 2019, 08:43:47 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Death Dragon on February 25, 2019, 06:36:33 pm
I am wondering if that may not already be in? Given that value changing books are really really rare in worldgen. All the libraries I've been to at the least were filled with academic books, never found a poem, history or value arguing book.I know that books can change an individual's values, but I doubt there's currently any site population scale influencing going on. It would be really great though. I really love the idea of potentially influencing a foreign civ by exporting a bunch of propaganda books to them. Like sending "it concerns the worthlessness of nature" books to the elves or "all leaders must be toppled" kind of stuff. That's why I'm wondering if libraries are going to get that ability to influence the population like the religious buildings are able to.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 25, 2019, 08:43:00 pm
Well...how realistic is that though?I am wondering if that may not already be in? Given that value changing books are really really rare in worldgen. All the libraries I've been to at the least were filled with academic books, never found a poem, history or value arguing book.I know that books can change an individual's values, but I doubt there's currently any site population scale influencing going on. It would be really great though. I really love the idea of potentially influencing a foreign civ by exporting a bunch of propaganda books to them. Like sending "it concerns the worthlessness of nature" books to the elves or "all leaders must be toppled" kind of stuff. That's why I'm wondering if libraries are going to get that ability to influence the population like the religious buildings are able to.
The religious buildings are representative of priests, monks and other assorted preachers spreading the good word ("Praise suicide!"). Do librarians do the same thing on a massive scale? Revolutionaries, maybe, who would direct people to libraries, but we don't have them yet (besides diligent adventurers) and probably won't until the society/politics update.
Post by: GoblinCookie on February 26, 2019, 07:32:42 am
Well...how realistic is that though?
The religious buildings are representative of priests, monks and other assorted preachers spreading the good word ("Praise suicide!"). Do librarians do the same thing on a massive scale? Revolutionaries, maybe, who would direct people to libraries, but we don't have them yet (besides diligent adventurers) and probably won't until the society/politics update.
We have insurrections at the moment and they are pretty violent. In answer to your questions, realistically the librarians do the same thing as the clergy, but they aren't as aware of it. Accidental advocacy should be a thing for authors, actually that is an idea for a thread.
Post by: Death Dragon on February 26, 2019, 11:10:43 am
Well...how realistic is that though?Realistically it would depend on the population's literacy of course.
The religious buildings are representative of priests, monks and other assorted preachers spreading the good word ("Praise suicide!"). Do librarians do the same thing on a massive scale? Revolutionaries, maybe, who would direct people to libraries, but we don't have them yet (besides diligent adventurers) and probably won't until the society/politics update.
I don't think the impact of religious buildings on the population is caused just by people like priests and monks. I assume the architecture, pretty pictures in the church/ shrine and whatever else probably also have their part in influencing the people, so I don't think giving libraries the ability to influence would literally mean that librarians run around and force people to read books. The DF world doesn't have any television or youtube. That makes me imagine that people jump on any new book they can get their hands on (as they do in player forts, I suppose).
In real life we have tons of books that had some sort of impact on society. Political texts by Plato or Machiavelli, Euclid's The Elements, the Communist Manifesto, the Bible, Harry Potter, etc. It doesn't sound like an unreasonable idea to me. I don't really think revolutionaries or similar are necessary for books like these to have an impact. Sure, they help spreading them, but they are also kinda created by them, no?
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 27, 2019, 01:44:41 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 28, 2019, 04:02:38 am
What's the Announcement going to be?
...
Too direct?
How about:
Hint please!
Oh, and,
Are you giving a talk at GDC this year?
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 28, 2019, 12:20:52 pm
Well, since it's the end of the month, I may as well give it a shot...
What's the Announcement going to be?
...
Too direct?
How about:
Hint please!
Oh, and,
Are you giving a talk at GDC this year?
Well he was preparing "material" for the announcement. So hmmm.
Post by: therahedwig on March 01, 2019, 06:22:05 am
I thought it might help a lot with situations where the player's fort map is slowing down because 250 cave horses are trying to path through the third cave, and I wasn't sure whether to expect that from the rewrite.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 01, 2019, 08:57:18 am
If a world doesn't have any defined bottom (like the magma sea and the region below) it's would probably be technically feasible to just extend the bottom layer (which would be somewhat boring) on demand (I believe there's a DFHack utility to expand the sky upwards in an existing fortress, but the sky doesn't contain any features [except for the shear bug, but I don't know those appear in expanded skies as well]).
Post by: therahedwig on March 01, 2019, 09:27:29 am
So yeah, the main thing I'm curious about is whether these cubes could expand. Shrinking would be cool too, but sounds so difficult I hadn't even considered it :p
Post by: Death Dragon on March 02, 2019, 07:32:27 pm
Well, I sure hope the future holds a bunch more sequels to the Tales Foretold series. ;D
Post by: Lemunde on March 02, 2019, 09:48:36 pm
Well, since it's the end of the month, I may as well give it a shot...
What's the Announcement going to be?
Boat Murdered coming to Netflix.
Post by: Toady One on March 02, 2019, 10:33:31 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorf
"Are the militaristic mercenary groups viable candidates in the future for alternative starting fort scenarios, they seem pretty fleshed out compared to other groups in a self sufficient way besides say- a travelling band of minstrels" Auldsmen we still haven't got a lot of coverage of, we've seen traders, prophets, mercenaries but only the hints of the honest workers of the guilds.
A second tangental question towing the line of a suggestion i guess: "Will auldsmen also have favourite items contrary to their fluffily assigned 'jobs' that they specialise in or am i reading too much into it based of merc's?" here's to thinking contracting a guildmember with a penchant for scimitars (T&C's apply) could be put to work equipping your dwarves just by being a hired specialist to equip them with freshly forged arms, save them just being a tad useless apprenticeship workshop and maybe a background industrial presence in W.G but we'll see what comes out in devlogs i guess.
Certainly we've gotten a little out ahead of the status/subgroups/etc. release, and some of the things we've been doing now set the stage for that. Having a fortress that starts as a mercenary group stronghold would work, as with the religious and mining company etc. possible start -- or mixtures, such as the religious military orders. We'll eventually be understanding much more about why the initial group of dwarves is doing what they are doing, whether that's seven dwarves with a wagon or something else.
Yeah, I'm open to making guildmembers (or workers in general) more interesting at some point. People have favorite items generally, and general skills like "weaponsmith", and it would make sense for there to be some more information there. I haven't done anything with the guilds and their products the same way I have with merc items; the guilds are tied in to the w.g. economy already, so additions there will be more involved when we do get around to them. Similarly, if merc groups actually had to source their specialty items rather than just getting them, there would be complications. Hopefully we can get to all of it sometime.
Quote from: Aid
Now question,will the mode of Legends change, now without utilities difficult
Why dwarves are only defending, I thought that after the last release they will attack
I heard that you want to change the legends mode, is it possible to do so that in the games themselves they see how some of the known information is wobbling and when exporting there was all the information in XML dump
How do you think when the game is ready in your opinion
People have already started to think when magic and myths will come out in a special topic, you have a date when you want to get an update?
What is your development plan now? Release the villainous update, myths and magic in parts and then what will you do?
Did you ever think of throwing a game?
How long now is the generation of the world now? And in general, the performance of the dwarf fortress
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7924864#msg7924864
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7924867#msg7924867
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7924937#msg7924937
Aid (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7925221#msg7925221
I think the first question was handled in the links above.
Is the attack/defense bit about world gen dwarf attacks? I'm not sure what the current state is. I vaguely recall changing something, but perhaps it's not fixed.
I didn't understand the wobbling part.
Ready, like 1.0? Or any given release? 1.0 is currently based on a point system from some old notes. As we've seen in the upcoming version and others, those don't encompass everything we're going to do, but that's still how I update the numbers. In that way, 1.0 is not an incredibly important distinction; if we ever make it there, we can celebrate, then just keep working. For each individual release, we just have a list of the main points we want to hit upon, and try to stick with it.
I don't have a date set for the magic release. It's going to be one of the longest waits for a release due to the core changes that must be made to get even the basic features to work.
Yeah, that's right -- once the dust settles with the villains etc. etc., there will be one or more myth/magic releases, and then after that the current plan is to do the embark situation/property/status/laws/customs/etc. framework release(s). After that, we don't have an ordered plan.
I didn't understand the throwing part.
I'm not sure what you mean by how long or which performance parameters you are concerned with. Certainly villains demand some resources, but it's not terrible; I've been running out histories into the hundreds of years for these dev logs without any new problems (not that it was super-fast to do that in a medium world previously.)
Quote from: Bumber
Can mercenary companies downgrade some of their equipment to stay afloat for a while, or is that not something they consider?
Does the equipment belong to the company, or is it awarded to individuals?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7925059#msg7925059
Yeah, the equipment is given to individuals for now, which is very kind. There's also the company-wide level, so if a non-historical mercenary is ever elevated to historical status, they'll have equipment (becoming their own individual equipment) in line with company standards. The non-historical squads used in battles also benefit from company equipment levels.
I'd considered doing downgrades to pay off debts, but I'm just letting it float for now. Being broke generally happens before they get into the equipment business at this point, but it'll probably be a good thing to update.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
I only just now realized, why does the adventurer carpentry menu allow you to craft splints, bins, cabinets, and other items you can't use or build with?
If it was just a straight conversion of the carpenter's workshop's contents it'd make sense, but you correctly omitted being able to make cages (useless in adventure mode as far as I can determine), along with a lot of furniture items you can't place in the construction menu, but ALSO omitted animal traps (available from a carpenter's workshop in fort mode, and useful in adventure mode for trading vermin) and minecarts (which are hilariously useful in adventure mode).
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7925270#msg7925270
Random_Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7925582#msg7925582
Yeah, I don't recall the specifics but this is very likely to just be unfinished features mishmashed with me maybe thinking I was going to be able to add e.g. adv mode medical and didn't in fact get to it (which has happened a few times). Hopefully it will come to make sense over time. As Shonai_Dweller mentions, we have another good crack at it slated in the possible near-term dev section, and how that plays out is going to depend on what stuff feels like after the villain release etc. etc. dust settles.
Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
First, is it planned for religiously affiliated mercenary companies to interact with the organized religions that they follow? For example sending guards with prophets/priests/pilgrims of the same religion, or perhaps their members will also undertake pilgrimages themselves? May be jumping ahead in terms of development with this one, been a while since I've read up on the posted future plans.
Second, do the new networking mechanics interact with entity ethics? Namely in regards to the [JUSTIFIED_IF_NO_REPERCUSSIONS] tag? Like say Entity Member A murders Entity Member B in broad daylight, while Entity Member C is the local law enforcement officer who would normally intervene. But in this instance, A has flipped C into their network beforehand, and thus evades the otherwise lawful consequences for their actions. I know this is what happens in the upcoming villain update regardless. But I'm wondering if this might have or be planned to have some special interaction?
We'd like to do more with it, yeah, but it's sparse as usual right now. The fact that the characters individually are all mostly religiously fervent does cause some effects that feel more holistic with pilgrimages and so forth, but it's not as entity-linked as it should be.
I haven't specifically played with that tag yet... I think it was original supposed to be about repercussions involving a second civilization, like not making waves, though the tags are so hopelessly vague it has inhibited forward motion a bit there, with additional inertia caused by it all being gutted with the customs/law stuff.
Quote from: Laterigrade
How will the new villain networks, mercenary bands and things interact with adventurer mode?
What I get to remains to be seen. At the minimum, you'll be able to run a villain network from the top yourself, and you'll be able to direct others to do any of the actions that make it into post-world-generation villainous activity, which isn't specified yet but should be roughly like what we've done in world generation. You'll be able to investigate the activities of villains. Whether you can join an organization as somebody lower down depends on a number of factors that I'm not sure I'll be able to do yet -- this mainly hinges around having conversations/items/etc. that actually let you carry out a plot on the local map, which always makes stuff harder.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Have you considered allowing adventurers to put points into http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Appraiser at the start of the game, so that we can see goods prices in adventure mode? Or is there some mechanical blocker there?.
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7926702#msg7926702
It could also just relate to the general economy mess and how effort expended there all feels half-wasted until we understand more about the core feature set that'll go in. I don't recall if I used the space in the barter screen for prices for something else, but it doesn't strike me as being a particuarly hard thing to fix mechanically if the space is there.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will villains also organize prison breaks for agents they deem useful? Or for potentially useful blackmail victims too, I guess?
Also,
Will the prison sentence system be used for prisoners of war too, or do they get special rules?
They don't currently. It's in our menu of fun-time activities, but we haven't done it. May get another look once the dwarves start locking people up, or momentarily when we get to additional w.g. prisoners in e.g. the new tower dungeons.
Prisoners of war are on the indefinite detention rules, as they don't have charges for them. At some point we could involve them in prisoner exchanges or ransoms or executions or anything that will start happening for other prisoners, but I've just left it for now.
Quote from: therahedwig
How do you imagine the upcoming divine law to interact with civ ethics? Do you think it will override civ ethics, modified by civ ethics, or will civ ethics themselves be modified by divine law? Similarly, will Divine law only be what gods communicate to their followers, or will it also include laws from very practical knowledge like 'going into the forest at night will kill you'+'killing yourself is bad'='don't go into the forest at night, we'll imprison your instead'? Or will that be more of a later development?
Some religious prohibitions tie in to practical advice, even if they aren't stated directly that way or if they don't provide their reasoning; simply due to the computerized nature of this project, we'll likely have a combination of too-practical and too-random laws to deal with, and it'll take some work to make them feel divine. There's a change to how the carts and horses and barn doors and so forth are arranged that'll come to the myth release, with the mythical events coming prior to the creation of civilizations most times, so the way that civ ethics come about and so forth will feel more guided. The raw files will still guide what you end up with, but as with questions like "why do dwarves age and die?", we'll also have to at least try to answer questions like "why do dwarves consider these actions crimes and punish them the way they do?" It won't be possible to approach every question with the first myth/magic release, simply because there are so many variables in the raws, but we'll make some progress.
As for the source of divine law, I suppose that depends on what you mean by divine, and whether we back up the legitimacy of the declarations of organized religions with actual divine intervention or have a situation where the deity could actually call them out after a period of being adrift. In the latter case, you might have practical laws or laws which are simply made for the benefit of the priesthood and their allies, depending on how much we get into the law codes and their reasoning and changes as we go.
Quote from: Flying Teasets
Will dwarven tunnels get attached aqueducts/cisterns/waterwells at some point?
Will waterwells become usable in adventure mode, and will drawing water from them be affected by entity ethics such as trespassing and theft?
With exile implemented, will entities with ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_EXILE be more likely to exile their members instead of beating or imprisoning, and will exiled members be counted as entity members or neutrals for the purposes of ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL?
Will entities gain master persuaders as law enforcers and use them to convert criminals if ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_REPRIMAND is enabled?
Adventure role: Thief on the development page describes several punishments acceptable to an entity with ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:ACCEPTABLE and adjacent; will entities with a low opinion of torture favor social punishments, imprisonment or exile over these?
Is a system for generating personal ethics based on character personality in the works?
Will scholar research topics unlock buildings, reactions and professions, and will the entity list of same define an entities starting knowledge instead of restricting it?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7927101#msg7927101
Flying Teasets (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7927104#msg7927104
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7927107#msg7927107
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7927197#msg7927197
The wells and tunnels questions were handled in the replies.
Yeah, exile as a punishment for a given item in the ethics list should mean exile, rather than other options. I have no idea about the reprimand though, ha ha. It seems like it needs some sort of honor/rep addition where a reprimand has some actual impact on the offender's life.
I don't think I'll get to a more involved ethics generator since that's all on the chopping block for the law/customs stuff. Once we get special laws etc. changing through various processes, the procedural and personal nature of it should arise naturally.
Knowledge should be related to game mechanics, yeah. We just haven't gotten there at all yet. Starting knowledge is complicated by the myth/magic stuff. If one sets starting knowledge in the raws, then just like death etc., the legends should have to explain how they got it. If one lets it float, then the civilizations will just start with whatever is explained by the myths and other pre-history.
Quote from: Mort Stroodle
I'm wondering about the whole "dynamic world" ideas that have been brought up with respect to myths and magic. I got the impression that sphere regions will be dynamic, changing as the magical world is altered (rituals with gods, using artifacts, etc), but I'm wondering if these dynamic changes to biomes might pave the way for less magical, more natural biome alterations. Will natural events cause changes to biomes, or only magic? If we're able to pull the world closer to the fire plane or whatever, melting the poles and creating more fire sphere regions, then might we also see more mundane changes to the natural world? Like, volcanic eruptions creating larger landmasses over the oceans, climate change due to non-magical factors, cold fronts causing temporary changes to biome temperatures and what animals spawn there, disturbance and forest succession, that kind of thing? If none of that is planned for magic, will the dynamism of magical biomes create a framework that at least makes variability in the natural world easier to implement down the line if you want to?
Yeah, absolutely. Natural disasters will likely be one of the early tests we end up doing. Forest fires have become a source of inspiration of sorts every August around here, and I've been to Mt. St. Helens a few times, as the natural world reclaims the ashen hellscape of sludge and toppled trees; right before we moved to California when I was a small small child in 1980 (and so I don't remember, but Zach does), our house in southern Washington was covered with ash by the big eruption (you could see the mountain from there.) These sorts of things are often on our minds.
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Quote from: Shonai_DwellerI guess you won't know yet as it's kind of edge-case, but...
If a spy (either Adventurer or histfig) takes on the identity of a curse-giving god worshipper, would they get cursed by the god after knocking down its statues (Ha! Fooled you. Now I'm a weresloth...) or just cause religious unrest?
Can villains falsely accuse other people of temple desecration if there were no witnesses?Quote from: Eric BlankRelatedly, will anyone at all care about temple desecration in the coming update? Can priests or worshippers of a religion come to hate someone who desecrates their temple? Like spit on/refuse to talk to them or become aggressive? Right now nobody cares how many statues you knock over, and it is kinda weird.
Ha, it would be amusing if the god fell for your secret identity. In the future we'll have more of an idea of exactly how omniscient gods are etc. I mean, gods being fooled is a normal thing, but here it seems more off, though punishment would certainly be warranted.
I haven't done anything new with false accusation so far. There'll be a little of that as I get to false imprisonment shortly, but mainly it has been a fort mode thing to this point and we aren't there yet.
Temple desecration rep/witnesses/noticing: It's one of those things that now built up sufficient pressure and related mechanics to matter more. I haven't touched it yet (since I haven't gotten out of world generation.) I'm not sure if it will change, but it's more necessary now than it was before.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
This is completely unrelated to anything in the near future, but a quick question about village/city layouts. Right now villages and cities are organized in neat squares, like a 1930s Soviet apartment block. Obviously, medieval cities (and villages especially) tended to have much more chaotic layouts, with buildings frequently having odd angles between them, streets curving and twisting, etc. I assume that the problems behind implementing such building generation are very similar to the problem with boats?(non-90 degree angles being difficult to simulate with the current graphical system)
In general, when the spatial mechanics behind boats are implemented, do you expect it to be as revolutionary as the addition of the Z-layer? I've just mentioned city layout, but I only now realize how different DF worlds would be in general if they weren't basically locked in a grid
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7927883#msg7927883
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7927912#msg7927912
Hapchazzard (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7928003#msg7928003
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7928023#msg7928023
I don't think that's an entirely fair characterization of my current city maps. There's an underlying 48x48 tile structure and buildings are aligned with the two axes due to map structure constraints, but zoomed out there are often hexagonal blocks and winding paths and triangles and other features. It's not great, but it's not 100% blocky either. I cannot do actual angled buildings due to the fact that I'm using tiles. I mean, I can draw blocky angled lines, etc., but there are some non-trivial complications that come out of doing things that way as well, involving crossing the load lines.
But yes, it's related to boats. We are not able to abandon the grid. The interview in therahedwig's link covers a lot of the issues with boats/vehicles in particular. You can't just angle a boat on an underlying grid without causing a ton of significant problems. I'm open to specific suggestions as usual over in the suggestions forum, but I don't think it's an easy problem. The easiest solution for a new project would be to go full 3D or abandon the grid in 2D, and I can't do either of those things now; the planned map rewrite will be hard enough, and is the limit of the kind of changes I can make without dooming the game.
In the end though, I don't think these limits hurt DF significantly. There are simply certain aesthetic and spatial boundaries we can't cross, and that was always going to be true for a variety of reasons.
Quote from: RobotFighter7
Will we see mercenary companies specialize in other more niche/exotic roles when magic comes around things like band of spellcasters who prefer to fight mounted, a company of wizards/otherwise magically knowledgeable people who control/summon magical beings to be used as warbeasts that they may or may not directly lead in battle and whatnot?
When the subject of seizing position-holders as prisoners is addressed, do you intend to allow the captors to ransom the prisoners, or will they just be locked away for now?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7928317#msg7928317
Shonai_Dweller covered the second question, and ransoming is on the table in terms of the accounts we've been using, though it's not guaranteed.
For the first question, we have certain dev notes up there about how, for instance, religious groups might be associated to night creature hunting, and various of the wizard notes are group/entity related. Mercenary companies, being new, weren't specifically contemplated against those notes at the time, but now that they are in the game, it's all on the table, especially as it relates to anything categorized as "battle magic", supernatural threats and religious links.
Quote from: CorkNite
Will the Myth and Magic update add new structures into the game? And if so, what might they be?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929194#msg7929194
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929344#msg7929344
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929374#msg7929374
Ha, yes, there's some listed on the dev page and quite a bit of "he he he" might be involved. And all of the stuff like giant slade spires being thrust up from the underworld which are currently in the game need to be systematized based on procedural world/planar layouts, and that'll lead to... well, who knows? Assuming the map rewrite, we should have some new abilities to build some cool localized stuff that counts as structures.
Quote from: Death Dragon
It's planned that, when you expel someone, the person will remember that negatively and if they have villainous tendencies, they might want to take revenge on you in some way, right?
Would there be a chance that the same could happen when you decline a visitor's petition request or do they currently not care about it either way when you decline those?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929461#msg7929461
Yeah, I should set that up -- I've made a note. As PatrikLundell said, they have personality-based reactions to it already, and if it does upset them greatly, it should be able to be the basis of a vendetta if they have the proper tendencies.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
In what ways do spheres impact the appearance of angels at the moment, it impacts what their divine metal looks like, what there little modifiers are (it has a rasping voice or whatever) , but does it actually impact their appearance and if so , in what ways? Are gods with more disturbing spheres creating more disturbing looking angels (Do they create more insecty or spidery ones? Or whatever you feel is disturbing/would disturb people), are gods with more noble spheres creating more noble looking angels (Eg having the angle have a lions head/look like a lion (as lions have always been a symbol for nobility)), Do they impact the materials they are made of? etc.
I didn't have a lot to work with without magical backing, so maybe there are no additional effects than the ones you listed, let me go check... war/valor/fortresses spheres adds tags for natural combat skills for the "humanoid warrior" angel class being 10 instead of 6. The sphere effects on body materials work the same way they do for demons etc., so a muck god will more likely have mud angels, a rainbow god will more likely have crystal angels, etc. etc. (there are about 30 spheres with material links.) Death, misery, darkness and night sphere angels can have dark color alterations. You already mentioned the little descriptive modifiers (which have no effect currently.) There are no animal linkages at this point, as the animals (like lions) don't have sphere links and my thinking to this point has been to have procedural culture take the lead on that. It might be that large predators get nobility links oftentimes, but if there's a myth involving a lion that goes some other way, any corresponding angels etc. should work a different way. Certainly there should be more done, and hopefully the myth/magic release will put us there.
Quote from: scourge728
Now that marriage and dating has been expanded, will we see an entity level value for things like adultery?
EDIT: Also: Since it's a common trope, are Gods creating demigods by breeding with civilized races planned?
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929529#msg7929529
Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929565#msg7929565
I have not yet added the ethics/values etc. related to adultery or what marriage even means etc. etc. in civs. This'll likely wait for the status/etc. release after magic, since this sort of thing can be variously complicated. Right now, people just operate on individual jealousy as it regards a partner's lovers, and they take extra lovers if their personality sends them that way.
Yeah, demigods are planned as a result of the myth/magic stuff, and we'd had plans at times over the years to sneak something in early which never went through. It's hard to say what'll come through in the first pass in the magic releases as usual.
Quote from: Rubik
I know that torture, even if it makes in as a feature, won't be playable in fort mode because dwarves don't torture, because of their ethics but:
1-Will we get to do it in some way in adventure mode? maybe if you play as a villain, it'd make sense as an intimidation/blackmail thing
2-I've been a great fan of LCS for many years, do you envision the way DF is gonna handle torture as a job , in a similar way to how it was treated in LCS? Does it give you ideas on how to procede with that?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929884#msg7929884
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929983#msg7929983
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7929987#msg7929987
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7930001#msg7930001
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7930060#msg7930060
We're not jumping into torture in the near-term here, even with the villain stuff. I'm not sure how it'll play out after that. LCS isn't exactly a roadmap for anything, given how it was. As therahedwig stated, the systems are interesting enough that what counts as torture is a line we've already crossed, especially when we had, say, weapon twisting in wounds. The interrogations coming up aren't related to torture -- effective interrogation and torture are different things, as I understand it.
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Quote from: iceball3Concerning embezzlement, will this be something the player can take advantage of in any mode aside from legends? Or, in other terms, can the player be in positions where embezzlement is a meaningful act, as opposed to theft or reappropriating siezed wealth? (lords/kings/barons exerting taxes or property siezure)
In the event a player can theoretically commit embezzlement, will performing the act be an explicit manuever that provides one with context of the material ownership, or implicit based on appropriated wares and claims placed on that capital?
Do you plan to implement any jurisdictional forces/association/positions/etc who's task will be to assess ongoing losses and encourage investigations? Or does the bookkeeper largely fill this role in terms of speculative fleshing out of this feature?Quote from: Urist McVoyagerI know we won't be able to tap directly into accounts ourselves, but will we be able to set an official to embezzling for us and receive things like bags of gems or local coinage as a representation?
As a player villain, you should be able to force/entice embezzlement and receive money up the chain, yeah. What that meeeeeans now is still up in the air. The economy is less defined after world gen that it is in world gen currently, so if we just end up generating pouches of coins or exemplar items for your lieutenants to bring you (as with tribute), that may be how it has to be. It'll be best not to dwell on it too long, as the work will mostly go to waste later on, but it would be nice to give that form of villainy some tangible benefit.
Player embezzlement is even trickier and might not happen, since we don't have position responsibilities defined in any meaningful way linked to objects in the universe.
The w.g. counterintel stuff to happen and the fort counterintel and the player investigations are going to come into this; currently embezzlement in w.g. is stopped by the sheriff/captain/etc, but that's about to become slightly more involved. For dwarf mode, yeah, we might toy around with how the stocks/bookkeeper stuff works when you are trying to figure out what's going on. As with vampires, tormenting the player is important, without spoiling the game, and there should be fun side effects, in all versions of the word fun.
Quote from: ArmokGoB
What does your workflow look like? How does a feature make it into DF from beginning to end?
There's no one way it happens. There are layers of notes, and stuff percolates upward, but a lot of times some necessity or lark will arise and a feature will suddenly be in the game in some form or another. Once a feature is on the plate to be added, related features can also make it in, just because it's a good opportunity.
The notes include planning sessions Zach and I have which can form the basis for the structure of a set of releases, and also the suggestions forum notes and features that might arise out of the bug tracker due to fixes (for instance, combat AI for removal of helmets, or the bending of joints, came more from bugs and/or major problems with combat/armor/materials.)
For a single feature, it might require a great deal of pen-and-paper drawing and planning and days or weeks of work (see village maps, etc.), or it might be an hour or two of tinkering. Then that defines a whole new set of features that are possible, and the notes need to be updated etc. There's also a good deal of future-proofing that goes on in the implementation, mostly in the form of pondering what's most likely to happen and building versatile data structures around that.
Post by: Toady One on March 02, 2019, 10:33:49 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, just how worked up can religious people get? Are we going to see escalation up to the point of crusades against an opposing religion's holy city?
That's a little more organized than it will get by release, though after some persecution and preaching and rioting the direction of action can sometimes feel like an organized event. Persecuted plotters can also enact plots directed at the targets of their persecution grudges. But we still lack certain important elements, as you suggest. The addition of the religious elements generally has broadly increased the 'surface area' of features that should be added and it will feel a bit like they are missing.
Quote from: therahedwig
Are villains able to use chaotic situations like riots and insurrections as a distraction while they act out their plans(stealing/assassinating/marching the army into town)?
Riots are currently events rather than ongoing situations, so it isn't able to insert other actions inside of them. There are quite a few of the elements of plots that I've been considering extending temporally, but it probably won't happen this time. The old insurrections do take place over time, but I haven't linked that fact into villainy. Overall, it needs to be homogenized and extended a bit, and it should open up some opportunities as you suggest when that happens.
Quote from: Death Dragon
What exactly caused the persecution of the Occult Coven by Stodir? Did he actually hate that religious group in some way or was it just greed plus some random chance?
Can other entity types also become persecuted in ways like this? Corporations, monastic orders, etc? Is it strictly for religious groups for now or could some greedy ruler confiscate the possesions of a corporation, for example?
Some other things I was wondering about these new non-civ entities:
Are entities like corporations, religions, mercenary companies always linked to a parent civilisation or are they separate? When a mercenary company purchases equipment, do they get it from their parent civilisation? So, would a dwarven merc company have access to steel equipment, while a human one does not?
Stodir also had an opposing religion that he held fervently. But he didn't have a specific grievance against them -- it all has to start somewhere, and Stodir was that. The greed temptation also builds up over time and has a few other personality facets which temper it; there's still a random element but I've been trying to get away from pure coin flips for this stuff to make it more interesting and consistent.
I haven't currently implemented other persecutions, though certainly non-religious ones should be on the table, e.g. involving stuff like factors/warehouses from foreign cultures etc., as there are plenty of historical examples of that.
Parent linkage: It depends on the case. We found it convenient to delink mercenary companies, as I recall, while they still copy over a bunch of stuff from their parent first (which should, for instance, do steel as you expect.) But the real story here is that the subgroups/property/customs/etc. release framework and maybe even the economy is needed to understand these linkages better, and I'm just hacking it together for the time being.
Quote from: Inarius
Will we be able to see and visit ruins of a destroyed temple ?
Will we be able to "ask" something like "what is this destroyed building" ? to people ?
Will we be able, as an adventurer, to witness riots ? And will we be able to take part on it without messing with loyalty system ? (attackings citizens based on religious differences without turning the whole city against us)
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7930815#msg7930815
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7930827#msg7930827
Riots as w.g. events right now have an undecided future in adventure mode. We'll have to see how much you can be involved in that locally, and there are issues in terms of how people are identified based on religion etc. that would need to be tackled in local play. We haven't ruled out tackling all of these problems in turn, but the religious stuff still remains tangential to the actual villainous push for this specific release.
The links above address the first question... I don't recall if you can ask people about ruined buildings when you are standing in them the same way you can with intact buildings.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Will religious riots like this be on the table for fort mode play, say if i make a temple for a human bard troupes most favored deity?
Why dont bard troupes have a patron deity? Thats totally a thing irl, for example in greek traditional theatre it was all dedicated to that one god...
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7930933#msg7930933
All of the w.g. religious stuff is on the table for fort mode, but we can't do it all, so we'll need to see what the most natural, easy and necessary bits are as we do the core villainous changes there.
The ability to have religious links in entities is new, and I added it with the mercenary companies; having not gone back to revisit performance troupes (or scholars, or anything else) is just the typical DF thing of having a zillion implications from every new addition.
Quote from: CorkNite
I have some questions about one-way portals:
1. What kinds of creatures might they bring into the world? Will they be relatively normal, or completely alien?
2. Will megabeasts come out of the portals?
3. Will the portals bring items into the world? And if so, what kind?
4. What realms are these portals connected to? Are they afterlifes, or different dimensions entirely?
5. Will the player be able to open them in Fortress mode?
6. How will these portals affect magic and creation myths?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7931801#msg7931801
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7931812#msg7931812
The links address everything, I think. Thanks!
Quote from: Untrustedlife
1. Is it planned to reword or remove the "You are a killer" bit when you ask people about your reputation in adventure mode? Being a legendary hero, or legendary hunter, or murderer, already implies you killed something, so why do the NPC's need to tell you "you are a legendary hero you killed x, you are also a killer you killed x", i've been playing adventure mode for years, and i've noticed that people who are new to adventure mode tend to misunderstand what that means , they think the NPC is being accusatory or some such when they say "you are a killer" (since people tend to think that is synonymous with "You are a murderer" when in the game that is not the case) but to the game this literally just means "you are capable of killing things". Why not drop that part, or reword it to something less jarring/redundant? Is there a technical hurdle? Or do you think its fine? Or do you plan to change it?
2. Any plans to flesh out the reputation system (or add new types of reputations, or display NPC reputations (other then enemy) in legends mode.) in general in the next few updates, such as displaying player reputation info in the Quest log?
And a more fun question:
3. Given how many patrons/donators you have now, how do you handle the logistics of drawing all those crayon drawings and writing all those stories? Is this writing basically a full time job for Zach at this point? The story bits you guys send out are all very well made, so he must put alot of thought into each And writing what could easily be hundreds of stories at a time must be quite the challenge.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7931982#msg7931982
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7932323#msg7932323
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7932442#msg7932442
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7932712#msg7932712
1. I'm up for rewording it, but I think the reputation type has a place in the game. It's a specific and rare thing, killing people, and it has its own meaning. It's not about capability of "killing things", but more about the act of taking a life, which, though it might be justified, is a non-trivial matter and might change how people view you (hence, a reputation), not that this has yet jelled in any significant way in the game. But I think there are important distinctions to be made here, on top of murderer/hunter/hero reps (and a hero rep in particular won't always be purely death related.)
2. There are complications here, since reputations are dynamically calculated based on who you are asking, and you don't always deserve to know what they think. We've considered showing something like "what you think people of your own group should think of you" in the quest log, yeah. I'm not sure when that'll happen if we do it.
3. Zach does spend a lot of time on it, which is one of the reasons why official Threetoe stories up on the website itself are still fairly rare. I don't spend as much time on it as he does, but I handle the email and bookkeeping for it, which usual takes a full day or two out of the month. We're happy to do it, and it hasn't become as overwhelming as it might have. If the situation changes, we might need to adjust, but it hasn't come up yet.
Quote from: Beag
1. If a player is of a religion that is currently being persecuted would that show in play with them being harassed by their persecutors?
2. Seeing as mercenary companies can be religious might some of them set goals such as killing non believers or driving them out?
3. Would defacing an opposing religions temples be a possible quest priests might give the player in this coming update?
4. If the player adopts a disguise that specifies another deity as their object of worship might they be able to fool the established religion so they can avoid persecution?
1. World gen persecution events are currently one-off historical events, and I haven't even gotten to adv mode yet. So no, currently. This is the sort of thing that's likely to be expanded as we go.
2. That's the sort of thing that is on the table for the future as we continue working on these systems, yeah. Right now, they don't.
3. This doesn't seem likely currently, as a general principle, though if we do get to the part where an adventurer can be a subordinate in a villainous network, then it's slightly more likely depending on how much religious stuff we get to generally post w.g.
4. We haven't currently established how the persecution identifies followers in the first place, so we'd need that understanding first before we know how it'll interact with identities. Presumably, an identity that relates to another religion would be able to fool people as well as the identity fools them generally.
Quote from: Flying Teasets
Will rock salt ever become an edible item?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933281#msg7933281
Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933335#msg7933335
This has been on the table with, say, food preservation before, and recipes and all that. So there are few angles and we'll get there when that stuff comes back into view, whenever that might be.
Quote from: therahedwig
Are only towers capable of being restructured, or also houses? Like, will we see opulent villas as well as opulent towers?
I haven't done it yet, but I certainly sat there thinking about it. When I get to the adventure mode maps I might revisit if things are working smoothly. I was also thinking about how it relates to villas in smaller villages away from the cities, which I haven't done yet either. I'm not sure how that'll relate to the local hearth stuff.
Quote from: neutrino431
What are the plans for knowledge?
Do you have something more specific in mind? There's a lot of knowledge already in the game, other sorts of things that aren't, and pieces of it that aren't linked to others. For instance, all the knowledge in the library/scholar section of the game is separate from skills and buildings and jobs and items, and we'd like to change that at some point. Then there's the whole matter of rumors and witness reports and reputation.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
1.Will player adventurers be able to buy houses/towers/upgrade them after like the world gen folks can as of the recent dev log?
2.Even if not how will those places and their upgrades carry into play, will the villains tower actually have all the upgrades they bought, will you give them proper maps, will a tower that bought a wall/fortification/dungeon/other upgrade of some kind actually have them for players to deal with (the villain has a tower with a wall so you have to climb the wall to get in the tower, for example)?
3. If they have maps, how much variation will there be so each tower has its own feel?
Is this a preclude to all your ideas for adventurer thievery one of those goals as stated in the dev page:
"Mansions/villas out of the way as well" for them to steal from
And for the merchant role as stated in the dev page:
"Renting/buying cottages and other properties"
Because if so thats amazing. Take all the time you need because whats coming is exciting.
Would be pretty neat to buy my own villa or tower...
1. It's certainly closer than it was before and would fit with the idea of letting the player perform each of the villainous acts. As usual, if there's a big roadblock that springs up (related to property or the economy or who is in charge of selling stuff etc.) we might have to wait, but it's on the list currently. The ability to upgrade rather than buy has some map trickiness to it that might cause additional issues (whether it's players or regular villains.)
2+3. Yes, the upgrades are definitely going to be incorporated into the maps. I'm not sure what the level of variation will be, as that depends on the time spent plus how lucky I get with not having a bunch of map bugs to clean up (generating maps is always an uncertain process time-wise.)
Dev page vs. mansions: Yeah, it's all pointed at those and other goals. I needed the hideouts and it was like, well, there we go.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Why dont demons go on a rampage throughout the world once you release them or at least do more then just hang around your site? And why do mummies disappear when you leave the site, wouldnt it be much more simulations/interesting if they actually stuck around? It just seems odd given the other features in the game which are far more simulationist and kinda clashes with the reality of the situation.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933773#msg7933773
Urist McVoyager: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7934050#msg7934050
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7934068#msg7934068
Robsoie: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7934093#msg7934093
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7934163#msg7934163
Ha ha, yeah, this is one of those things that lingers in the air around almost every release, whether we mention it in the logs/notes or not. We even had it in the notes for this time, and probably won't get to it. I'm not sure what the inertia is; something about such forces being unstoppable, I think, since the underworld is an infinite source of such nightmares. We can say the player brings it upon themselves, sure, but a demon incursion would still feel broken, game-wise, without some extra backing or countermeasures or self-regulation. We'd need the myth/magic stuff to make such disasters more satisfying. The sim just isn't up to a permanent infinite demon rift yet.
With mummies, though, I have no idea where they are going, heh. They'd make a fine villainous addition, say.
Quote from: Bad_Goblin
For the Myth and Myth Release will magic also be found in the form of runes? In many different fantasy settings dwarfs have a great affinity for "rune magic", will we ever see this in Dwarf Fortress as well?
If so, would this form of magic somehow be implemented into the engraving and magic skills? (In the sense that creating a rune would require knowledge in the engraving skill in order to carve the rune into an object, as well as the proper experience in magic to imbue power into the rune.) Or would "Rune Crafting" have it's own skill(s) entirely to differentiate itself?
Lastly, What uses could rune magic have?
(For example: Could magic runes carved onto a weapon/piece of armor give said item special properties such as a rune engraved weapon now causing fire damage or have it deal harder hits in general? Could a rune engraved on a Helmet grant it a better chance at shrugging off blows? As another example, could engraving a rune on an object like a door make it so that it can only be opened by one with sufficient magical knowledge/skill? Or could magical runes be used as a form of "trap" engraved on a tile that could cause a lethal property to activate, for instance say, engulf the tile in flames if a specific creature (ex: a goblin or filthy elf) stepped on it?)
I might be going out on a limb or a tangent here that could quite possibly belong in the suggestions thread, but if something like this was ever implemented it could add a whole new depth for dwarfs interacting with objects as well as their environment.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933810#msg7933810
Bad_Goblin (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933895#msg7933895
Quote from: falcc
1)Will bandit groups (player or otherwise) be able to raid a shipment of embezzled goods from one site to another if they find out about the embezzlement, instead of either turning the villain in or blackmailing the person involved?
2)Can a group of bandits lie (since lying about identities is in) and say they're from a mercenary group in order to cause strife between two groups?
3)How likely is it embezzled goods will be encounterable in sites where it's being delivered in play?
4) Will players be able to show up to somebody's house with a horse strapped full of treasure like the Count of Monte Cristo and try to trade for their house before the big wait? If so will house owners take into account artifacts they don't know about in the cost? Will they take their furniture with them if you don't pay enough for it furnished or would that be too goofy?
5)Will villains stash their non-artifact abstract accounts in their houses in secret if their family doesn't know about how they got them?
6)Will villains that value family be more likely to tell someone they stole a cool artifact in their will? Will they be more likely to tell their family they have money or items without revealing its source if they don't trust them to bring them in on villainy?
7)Will more ostentatious villains dress their family and lackeys up fancier the way mercenary groups can equip others?
8)Will haunted furniture night creatures make it in before the big wait?
9) Will people on the street be talking about how "so and so really hit it off at the slots" even if we don't get gambling in play? Will people otherwise comment on unexpected windfalls, expansions being built on large buildings in town, or other signs of the ups and downs of local historical figure's fortunes?
1+3) Like tribute, there's a lack of tangible transfer right now post w.g. We've only just taken baby steps there with some of the spoils stuff in dwarf mode, so I'd say it's not likely but at the same time, certain bits might be added to facilitate player and other villainy. Remains to be seen. Once we have anything moving around, suddenly a ton of things become possible, including third-party intervention.
2) As you suggest, this would be possible, but I haven't done it.
4) Ha ha ha, you know this is seeming slightly more likely than it would have a few month ago, which is a surprise to me. There are some open questions about how house/tower/etc. trading is going to work in the release if you'll even be able to do it, but it's closer. They wouldn't be able to move furniture or anything, since we don't have the infrastructure for that, and the whole notion of how upgrades work post w.g. is also up in the air, so I can't say anything about how that might work.
5+6) Basic heirloom designation has a family value check, yeah, and unlike personal treasures, these are can be passed on after death instead of lost in the house. There isn't anything fancy about knowledge of artifact sources in general right now, so they can't be more specific either when storing or passing on an item about where it came from. I haven't adding use of the trust variable here, though since this is all death stuff, I'm not sure if that should enter into it.
7) I haven't done this yet, but having rich people look rich is a very reasonable thing.
8) Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933815#msg7933815
Ha ha, yeah, I really ought to show some restraint, especially since that is such a supernatural feature anyway.
9) I'm assuming not, just because it hasn't formed a basic for shareable rumors (rather than a basic historical event) at this point. It would be cool if people recognized stuff like that. The only way I'd see it coming in for this time is if it related to player investigations in some way.
Quote from: George_Chickens
Are false plots a possibility? For instance, a king's agent instigating a false assassination plot against him to draw out and execute traitors.
They have many of the same problems as other lies. Like secret identities, certain kinds of lies can be coded with a ton of effort, but I'm going to try to be careful not to add extra work (to the extent I can succeed in such a goal), so I probably won't go down such roads as I get into the counter-intelligence work, unless maybe it's an isolated event.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How can the player-adventurer pick out houses within a town that belonged to a historical figure? Will they be visibly different somehow, or do we ask around for properties? Random merchant houses in current towns all look the same inside and out.
Yeah, something is going to have to give during the villain investigation part of fort mode, related to some of the other location information we wanted to ask. You'll certainly need to be able to find these houses. Whether that works by physical appearance and/or directions relative to important structures, etc. is up in air, but we'll need to make it possible and perhaps even unannoying.
Quote from: Beag
1. Can you list all the new types of buildings we will be seeing in large human sites in this next release?
2. Will special owned buildings be exclusive to massive sites like cities or can smaller sites like towns have them as well? I ask this because it takes a lot longer for cities to form than towns during world gen.
3. If our player adventurers can join mercenary organizations and said organization owns a building will our adventurer gain permission to sleep in that building?
4. Will buildings owned by organizations contain items related to the type of organization that owns the building? For example would a building owned by a mercenary order contain spare weapons and armor?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7934257#msg7934257
1,2,3. therahedwig is correct on these, I think. I can't think of a missing building, in any case, and a code check doesn't turn one up.
4. Whether the mercenaries in particular have good maps depends on the post w.g. coding, because they don't participate in the same general trade economy that the sites/civs have in world gen (since they are a subgroup, like a religion). So this is still unclear.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Who do people actually give their money to when they buy real estate that didn't belong to anyone in a city? Does it go to the site government's coffers?
A while ago in this devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2018-12-07), you talked about how the infrastructure of a site can affect and change the population. Do you have an ability like this planned for libraries in the short term, too? For example, them being able to change the moral values of the site population based on what kind of books are stored in it?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7934907#msg7934907
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7934930#msg7934930
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7935081#msg7935081
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7935542#msg7935542
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7935564#msg7935564
GoblinCookie: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7935715#msg7935715
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7935792#msg7935792
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7935792#msg7935792
The sites and civs aren't limited in the same way individuals and smaller organizations are money-wise, since we just don't have the economic backing yet to make that satisfying (there is an unrelated fake debt system in place to handle w.g. trade, but that would be unwise to tinker with right now.) So we just have the person's account amount get dumped into nowhere.
Libraries have an effect in world gen in the currently released version, based on the original and copied books that are there. Every year, each library gets five turns to pick a book. If the book has a poetic/music/dance form, it has a chance to make that form well-known in the entire parent civ, as a form of cultural diffusion. If the book promotes a value at a certain level, it makes a roll against the author's skill roll when they made the book. The local site civ can have their values shifted by 1-2 point (it takes 10 or more to change the visible text for the value), and the parent civ can also be shifted a point, and all sites under the parent civ have a chance to be shifted a point as well. It's a very rough system (and it doesn't respond gracefully based on the number of books, etc. etc.), but there's something there.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
So where did your inspiration for necromancers becoming obsessed with mortality before becoming necromancers, and the fact that they get it off a slab come from? "Now you will know why you fear the night" is a direct quote from conan the barbarian, so i'm sure this has a place it comes from as well.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
We were partially working from Faust and other stories, but the slab is, well, not really our own thing but more of a general commandments type situation? There wasn't a specific pop inspiration. Sometimes the systemic setup just necessitates pulling together a object here or there to fulfill a role.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Sorry for so many questions this time around, but i have alot this month, so heres what happened I killed a vampire who was a king(lawgiver), drank his blood, became a vampire, then assumed a false identity, then became a necromancer, and built a wooden tower with my zombies, as i was building the tower, human soldiers kept intruding on us who my zombies would attack and i would have to kill them, and they kept spitting at me and calling me a murderer for killing their king as my zombies ripped them apart, this was awesome, as it felt like i was a actual dungeon lord dealing with pesky heroes coming to my tower (and they still are, this is my current adventurer save :P ). I have asked on here before if adventurers would go to your camp and you said no, so why is this happening? Is it just hearth patrols sniffing me out? Or is this an intended feature? And if so will it be properly supported/will it be expanded upon in the future, eg full on sieges of my camp by large groups of soldiers. Instead of just soldiers "trickling in" i notice that most of them are also "recruits"
Ha ha, I really have no idea why they are coming. I thought the "posse" thing was completely broken/unfinished last we looked at it. In terms of towers and what you are to them, there's still a bit that needs to be done I think for them to understand that you are an enemy/antagonistic force to be reckoned with as an entity rather than an individual. As I recall, the state of adventurer group diplomacy and the relation to the parent/other civs is still totally incomplete. We'll see some action when we do adventurer villains, though that's more individual than group focused. At the same time, when they hunt you as a villain, if you are known to be in a site with a pop, I mean, it seems like their use of armies to stop you will need to be on the table. We still need to finish counterintel in world gen, and the squishing of villains there might clarify some things.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
What's the Announcement going to be?
...
Too direct?
How about:
Hint please!
Oh, and,
Are you giving a talk at GDC this year?
Ha ha, there'll be more to say at the proper time! I don't have any official responsibilities at GDC this year though I suspect it'll be busy enough.
Quote from: therahedwig
With the map rewrite, were you also planning to make it easy for sites to dynamically resize? Like, for example, Dwarves digging down greedily, but also perhaps surface towns expanding.
I thought it might help a lot with situations where the player's fort map is slowing down because 250 cave horses are trying to path through the third cave, and I wasn't sure whether to expect that from the rewrite.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937076#msg7937076
therahedwig (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937090#msg7937090
Yeah, as you say in your second post, it'll give us way more control over the "loaded pillar" so that the third cave just isn't loaded until you get down there, if that's what you mean about the cave horses. And there should be lots of other ramifications about how sites grow, overlap and are shaped generally. That's always been one of the oddest things about adv mode especially -- as you walk around, it has the underworld and all three cave layers loaded, which is just weird and wasteful (but necessary the way things are now.)
Post by: Dragonslayerelf on March 02, 2019, 11:59:57 pm
1) When will you be able to butcher sentient creatures after an ethics change and then use the gleaned bones/meat to make food/bone goods?
2) Can features that aren't planned to work for Dwarves specifically still be encoded, especially for modders and fiddlers?
3) Are there any plans for making cobaltite useful?
4) Are there plans for a thievery/stealth skill for stealth squads which you can use against your enemies to steal artifacts (like Kobolds & Goblins) as well as babystealing missions should you choose to go evil or modify your ethics to allow that?
5) Are there plans to fix the glitches related to fortress mode necromancers where the things they revive are still hostile to them?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2019, 12:07:24 am
Just a few questionsLime-green if these are questions for Toady
1) When will you be able to butcher sentient creatures after an ethics change and then use the gleaned bones/meat to make food/bone goods?
2) Can features that aren't planned to work for Dwarves specifically still be encoded, especially for modders and fiddlers?
3) Are there any plans for making cobaltite useful?
4) Are there plans for a thievery/stealth skill for stealth squads which you can use against your enemies to steal artifacts (like Kobolds & Goblins) as well as babystealing missions should you choose to go evil or modify your ethics to allow that?
5) Are there plans to fix the glitches related to fortress mode necromancers where the things they revive are still hostile to them?
1) When any bug is fixed. Some time in the future - No fixed schedule.
2) All features are to be used with non-Dwarves. Post Mythgen, we'll get world's without dwarves at all to play with (besides, Adventurer is already non-Dwarves). You should probably ask something more specific here.
4) Current release. Send a squad, it uses stealthy skills to steal artifacts (and socks, and camels). (Babysnatching isn't in yet, but apparently it uses the same structures, so could be switched on easily enough).
5) Bugs are not features. They are actually unintentional. As a result, contrary to popular belief, there are plans to fix bugs. Because, they are bugs. No schedule obviously.
Edit
To clarify somewhat.
Bugs are generally looked at when that part of the game is being worked on. So, magic will feature a whole bunch of master-zombie relationship work which increases the chances of bugs being looked at then.
On the other hand, Toady sometimes just fixes bugs if he feels like it during the inter-development bug-fixing phases especially if they don't involve majorly rewriting everything.
But, best not to hold your breath for your particular pet bug to be addressed here. Bug tracker is hundreds of pages long...
Post by: Tomsod on March 03, 2019, 12:49:40 am
A question about your general vision (not the short-time stuff):
Many stories and games (both video and PnP) implicitly involve some level of "dramatic convenience", e.g. a mayor's daughter gets kidnapped just as your party is visiting the town, or you stay at a tavern and just happen to overhear a villainous plan, or the protagonist randomly finds a magic McGuffin ring in a river. What is your opinion on such things? Would you include an option for the game to behave that way (to nudge/induce interesting events) if you could? Is it even doable? The kidnapped daughter example above, for instance, would involve rewriting the near past, as the game can't predict which town will you visit next, and the kidnapping has to happen in advance.
I'm asking because in real life epic adventures are rare, and I fear a realistic medieval simulation may be a tad boring.
I remember you mentioning an option to stop worldgen just as something big is about to occur, but it's not quite the same thing as it fits the player to the world, not the other way around.
Another question, on the myth generator:
As there are going to be various race-creation myths, is a good old Darwinesque natural selection on the table? Either as a divine myth ("the mountain apes were our holy ancestors and diligent work made them into what we are now"), or as something scholars could discover (even contrary to preexisting myths)? Or is it not medieval enough?
Post by: George_Chickens on March 03, 2019, 12:56:11 am
Will there be a possibility for the player, as an adventurer, to join in on already existing plots?
Post by: therahedwig on March 03, 2019, 03:11:08 am
Thank you for another big post, Toady! I rarely play DF nowadays but I still read all the devlogs with relish.Try playing adventure mode sometime, the rumour system ensures you're always aware of something, and the world activation makes it so there's always something happening. It might not always be something you can do, and eventually megabeasts will run out, but villains will always crop up, I suspect.
A question about your general vision (not the short-time stuff):
Many stories and games (both video and PnP) implicitly involve some level of "dramatic convenience", e.g. a mayor's daughter gets kidnapped just as your party is visiting the town, or you stay at a tavern and just happen to overhear a villainous plan, or the protagonist randomly finds a magic McGuffin ring in a river. What is your opinion on such things? Would you include an option for the game to behave that way (to nudge/induce interesting events) if you could? Is it even doable? The kidnapped daughter example above, for instance, would involve rewriting the near past, as the game can't predict which town will you visit next, and the kidnapping has to happen in advance.
I'm asking because in real life epic adventures are rare, and I fear a realistic medieval simulation may be a tad boring.
I remember you mentioning an option to stop worldgen just as something big is about to occur, but it's not quite the same thing as it fits the player to the world, not the other way around.
Quote
Another question, on the myth generator:Not really an answer, but we didn't evolve from gorillas? (We share a common ancestor that as far as I can tell looked like a tailed monkey) Still that'd imply that mythgen takes into account tens and thousands of years.
As there are going to be various race-creation myths, is a good old Darwinesque natural selection on the table? Either as a divine myth ("the mountain apes were our holy ancestors and diligent work made them into what we are now"), or as something scholars could discover (even contrary to preexisting myths)? Or is it not medieval enough?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2019, 03:32:23 am
Remember that Dwarf Fortress is as much about other people's adventures as about yours. If you happen to wander into town just as the mayor is searching for someone to go fetch his kidnapped daughter, then fine, it's your story. But the world is full of other adventurer parties. The mayor will hire one of those and Dwarf Fortress will still be fulfilling it's intention of procedural generation of generic fantasy stories. You'll just have to hear about it afterwards or pick it out of Legends.
Also, if you've ever played in a world featuring a bunch of kidnapping civs, you'll know how quickly kidnapping epidemics can erupt. There's always someone who needs rescuing.
Post by: Random_Dragon on March 03, 2019, 12:05:35 pm
Yeah, I don't recall the specifics but this is very likely to just be unfinished features mishmashed with me maybe thinking I was going to be able to add e.g. adv mode medical and didn't in fact get to it (which has happened a few times). Hopefully it will come to make sense over time. As Shonai_Dweller mentions, we have another good crack at it slated in the possible near-term dev section, and how that plays out is going to depend on what stuff feels like after the villain release etc. etc. dust settles.
Understandable, yeah.
Post by: Dragonslayerelf on March 03, 2019, 01:29:30 pm
Just a few questionsLime-green if these are questions for Toady
1) When will you be able to butcher sentient creatures after an ethics change and then use the gleaned bones/meat to make food/bone goods?
2) Can features that aren't planned to work for Dwarves specifically still be encoded, especially for modders and fiddlers?
3) Are there any plans for making cobaltite useful?
4) Are there plans for a thievery/stealth skill for stealth squads which you can use against your enemies to steal artifacts (like Kobolds & Goblins) as well as babystealing missions should you choose to go evil or modify your ethics to allow that?
5) Are there plans to fix the glitches related to fortress mode necromancers where the things they revive are still hostile to them?
1) When any bug is fixed. Some time in the future - No fixed schedule.
2) All features are to be used with non-Dwarves. Post Mythgen, we'll get world's without dwarves at all to play with (besides, Adventurer is already non-Dwarves). You should probably ask something more specific here.
4) Current release. Send a squad, it uses stealthy skills to steal artifacts (and socks, and camels). (Babysnatching isn't in yet, but apparently it uses the same structures, so could be switched on easily enough).
5) Bugs are not features. They are actually unintentional. As a result, contrary to popular belief, there are plans to fix bugs. Because, they are bugs. No schedule obviously.
Edit
To clarify somewhat.
Bugs are generally looked at when that part of the game is being worked on. So, magic will feature a whole bunch of master-zombie relationship work which increases the chances of bugs being looked at then.
On the other hand, Toady sometimes just fixes bugs if he feels like it during the inter-development bug-fixing phases especially if they don't involve majorly rewriting everything.
But, best not to hold your breath for your particular pet bug to be addressed here. Bug tracker is hundreds of pages long...
Oh, thank you! Sorry if they were kinda stupid questions, but I figured I'd throw my questions in just to see what the response would be.
Post by: therahedwig on March 03, 2019, 01:50:43 pm
Post by: DG on March 03, 2019, 08:14:45 pm
1. I'm up for rewording it, but I think the reputation type has a place in the game. It's a specific and rare thing, killing people, and it has its own meaning. It's not about capability of "killing things", but more about the act of taking a life, which, though it might be justified, is a non-trivial matter and might change how people view you (hence, a reputation), not that this has yet jelled in any significant way in the game. But I think there are important distinctions to be made here, on top of murderer/hunter/hero reps (and a hero rep in particular won't always be purely death related.)
This was one of the most interesting question/answers. I agree that it's not a trivial thing even when justified and it's cool that the intention is to flesh it out in future. I'm reminded of a scene in Big Trouble in Little China after Jack shoots someone and then kinda stops in a daze as the enormity of it starts to settle on him. Eddie asks him if it's the first time he's "plugged" someone. "Course not!" :D
Post by: Button on March 03, 2019, 10:05:29 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2019, 10:36:50 pm
So if I recall correctly, this villain update was originally intended to be the last update before a Long Wait. Given how much it's ballooned, are you still planning to start the Long Wait as soon as it's finished? Or are you considering this its own Long Wait that you'll be doing rapid-fire bugfixes after?No, that was never the plan. And still isn't.
Dev notes clearly note a whole bunch of pre-Mythgen updates that haven't been touched upon yet.
Whether he'll get to any of them now is up in the air (though he mentioned it's still possible last month) but there'll certainly be a continuation of the bug fix releases after the first Villains pass.
The point of the current phase is to get the game into an interesting, relatively robust, fun state before the Big Wait begins. Not to throw a bug-filled bunch of Villains at us and say 'see y'all in 2022!'
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 04, 2019, 12:43:21 am
If you dont want to i get it, maybe just share a couple more screenshots then?
Maybe explain a bit of how it works,
I understand its agent based and turn based correct?
Will the final one work the same?
If its agent based and turn based, Would the player ever be allowed to pop into one of the gods during creation to take their "turns" for them, as that is a "role" people would want to play, that would be a fun mini game. Probably a messy interface though.
Post by: Witty on March 04, 2019, 12:56:54 am
Will you ever make the myth generator you showed off at GDC in 2016 downloadable? I would quite enjoy playing with it and modding it and stuff. I am a game dev myself so it would be cool to just read through a few of the creation myths (without having to read only screenshots) just have a little text blurb that says, "THIS DOES NOT REPRESENT THE FINAL MYTH GENERATOR AT ALL!" In bold next to the link to stave off any untoured expectations or some such.
Quote from: KittyTacWould you consider releasing a version of your standalone myth generator prototype, like you showed off at GDC? I imagine that people would appreciate something to check out during the Big Wait.
I'd prefer not to do this. I think it both has the bar too high in some places (effect lists, at least for release one, probably) and too low in others (most everything else.) It's not reflective enough of what I want to do, and I don't want expectations to coalesce around it overmuch.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 04, 2019, 01:15:50 pm
Priest: “yeah so the giant rats built a nest in the catacombs, could you clear it out for us”
All thats really in dungeons/catacombs right now is some criminals, sometimes,and ultra rarely some kobolds and even more ultra rarely other random historical monsters that have moved in, rarely some animal men, who half the time don't even initiate the combat. And the occasional tomb with a mummy.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 04, 2019, 01:51:26 pm
Do you plan to ever give dungeons/sewers/catacombs proper animal populations/incursions? It would be cool to fight the giant rats in the sewer/basement (prolific fantasy trope)Sewers at least were going to have animal populations. The devlog noted that hippos had moved into a particular one. Not sure what went wrong there that they don't dwell there now.
Priest: “yeah so the giant rats built a nest in the catacombs, could you clear it out for us”
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 04, 2019, 02:13:30 pm
Do you plan to ever give dungeons/sewers/catacombs proper animal populations/incursions? It would be cool to fight the giant rats in the sewer/basement (prolific fantasy trope)Sewers at least were going to have animal populations. The devlog noted that hippos had moved into a particular one. Not sure what went wrong there that they don't dwell there now.
Priest: “yeah so the giant rats built a nest in the catacombs, could you clear it out for us”
Thats part of why im asking.
Post by: Eric Blank on March 05, 2019, 12:05:23 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on March 06, 2019, 03:29:33 am
Post by: Dragonslayerelf on March 06, 2019, 10:34:11 am
Are there any plans to allow us to optionally manually control raids/pillages/invasions and be transported to the battlefield instead of only seeing a report after-the-fact?
Are there any plans to make roads actually traversed? I was thinking of making a fort on the roads and halting anyone passing by, but no one ever came unless they were specifically coming to my fort.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 06, 2019, 10:55:03 am
Are there any plans for us to be able to play races other than dwarves, such as a fully fleshed out structure for goblins, humans, etc?1. You can already play as them in adventure mode and explore their sites and such in adventure mode and see their political structure also in adventure mode . But presumably you mean fort mode. He has talked before about that. It’s planned.
Are there any plans to allow us to optionally manually control raids/pillages/invasions and be transported to the battlefield instead of only seeing a report after-the-fact?
Are there any plans to make roads actually traversed? I was thinking of making a fort on the roads and halting anyone passing by, but no one ever came unless they were specifically coming to my fort.
2.yes that is planned
3. Presumably yes. People already travel around they just don’t tend to use the roads directly (tough they may stay near them?) and they are useful in adventure mode. (I think they speed you up on the world map a bit but that may not even be the case)
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 06, 2019, 02:41:58 pm
Are there any plans for us to be able to play races other than dwarves in fort mode, such as a fully fleshed out structure for goblins, humans, etc?Adding to Untrustedlife's answer to the first question: One of the things planned for Myth & Magic is the introduction of generated races, as well as fully mundane worlds where fantasy races don't exist (i.e. only boring old humies, no cavern critters, and probably no magma sea). In order for fully mundane worlds to be playable at all in fortress mode, humans will have to be playable (it's possible to play them now with with minor raw changes, but they'll just essentially be human looking dwarves). Making generated races playable is probably harder than making generic elven/human/goblin type races playable (i.e. races generated close to the current location of DF worlds on the future magic/bizarre/... slider scales), although all of it may not make it into the first Myth & Magic arc.
Are there any plans to allow us to optionally manually control raids/pillages/invasions and be transported to the battlefield instead of only seeing a report after-the-fact?
Are there any plans to make roads actually traversed? I was thinking of making a fort on the roads and halting anyone passing by, but no one ever came unless they were specifically coming to my fort.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 06, 2019, 04:45:54 pm
Are there any plans for us to be able to play races other than dwarves in fort mode, such as a fully fleshed out structure for goblins, humans, etc?And, one more. Check out the Dev notes (older version, but it all still applies). Humans, elves, goblins for site play.
Are there any plans to allow us to optionally manually control raids/pillages/invasions and be transported to the battlefield instead of only seeing a report after-the-fact?
Are there any plans to make roads actually traversed? I was thinking of making a fort on the roads and halting anyone passing by, but no one ever came unless they were specifically coming to my fort.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
Somewhere in an fotf he said he didn't want to just turn on humans (indeed modding can simply manage that) but make sure it was done properly. So not "tall dwarves" or "building towns with an interface geared towards tunnel digging". So, might take a while before it hits vanilla.
Might come with Mythgen, but that's still unclear. The new races will be there, but site play could still be limited to civs who live in dwarf-like underground sites. Mythgen is so huge, who knows what will be in the first release!
Post by: therahedwig on March 06, 2019, 05:12:50 pm
Quote
It might be too much work to support them, and it would be pretty simple to ensure that one of the procgen'd races ticks enough of the fort mode necessities. Mainly the digging part, since outdoor constructions are still clunky. If we get to a point where an outdoor race would be fun to play, and has enough of its other bells and whistles respected, I'd be fine with that. It just doesn't feel like we are quite there. Overall though, I think procedural fort races will build a bit of that development pressure, the way things often work, since supporting their other quirks will be something that can be done more piecemeal without it feeling utterly broken... and then suddenly I might realize or be reminded, "oh, human castle mode is basically ready" or something like that. (naturally, the 17x17 sites wouldn't be supported due to memory concerns** -- another road into this is the scenario-related smaller work sites that everybody will have; "human lumber camp" is another possible path to playable humans.)Source: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7724610;topicseen#msg7724610
** (though without digging and with the map-rewrite, loading a 17x17 human embark suddenly becomes totally feasible, as the deep elevations which would normally blow-out memory and create an underground-life pathing nightmare could simply be ignored; though citizen path-finding would probably be slightly more costly as the map would be less compact -- that doesn't mean we'd be able to have all 10000 citizens of one of those human capitals loaded, but it does mean you could play a 200 person human 'town' with a small market and have the usual FPS problems, but no more than that)
:)
... Will there still be a sort of 'Wizard tower' mode for wizards(as per old dev notes), or will our interaction with wizards be primarily adventure mode shenanigans with occasionally a wizard histfig messing things up in fortmode? Or is everything just gonna melt together and we'll see prison-colony-on-a-magical-mountain-run-by-wizards-that-are-an-offshoot-of-a-dwarven-civ-and-they-are-also-a-mercenary-band-mode?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 06, 2019, 05:28:25 pm
prison-colony-on-a-magical-mountain-run-by-wizards-that-are-an-offshoot-of-a-dwarven-civ-and-they-are-also-a-mercenary-band-mode
I'd play it.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on March 06, 2019, 05:29:32 pm
With the expansion to relationships between historical figures that's been discussed for this pass, are there any plans to do the same (in the background of course) for player adventurers? I remember reading somewhere that currently adventurers don't have any romantic/sexual orientation which results in them not doing things like taking lovers or getting married and having children. The fact they will stay with their previous traveling companions where they retired is pretty nice. But for a player like myself, where being able to get an adventurer to retirement is something of a rarity, it'd be kind of nice to know my former adventurer became more of a part of the world aside from whatever accomplishments they achieved after I take my focus away from them.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 06, 2019, 05:32:26 pm
QuoteIt might be too much work to support them, and it would be pretty simple to ensure that one of the procgen'd races ticks enough of the fort mode necessities. Mainly the digging part, since outdoor constructions are still clunky. If we get to a point where an outdoor race would be fun to play, and has enough of its other bells and whistles respected, I'd be fine with that. It just doesn't feel like we are quite there. Overall though, I think procedural fort races will build a bit of that development pressure, the way things often work, since supporting their other quirks will be something that can be done more piecemeal without it feeling utterly broken... and then suddenly I might realize or be reminded, "oh, human castle mode is basically ready" or something like that. (naturally, the 17x17 sites wouldn't be supported due to memory concerns** -- another road into this is the scenario-related smaller work sites that everybody will have; "human lumber camp" is another possible path to playable humans.)Source: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7724610;topicseen#msg7724610
** (though without digging and with the map-rewrite, loading a 17x17 human embark suddenly becomes totally feasible, as the deep elevations which would normally blow-out memory and create an underground-life pathing nightmare could simply be ignored; though citizen path-finding would probably be slightly more costly as the map would be less compact -- that doesn't mean we'd be able to have all 10000 citizens of one of those human capitals loaded, but it does mean you could play a 200 person human 'town' with a small market and have the usual FPS problems, but no more than that)
:)
... Will there still be a sort of 'Wizard tower' mode for wizards(as per old dev notes), or will our interaction with wizards be primarily adventure mode shenanigans with occasionally a wizard histfig messing things up in fortmode? Or is everything just gonna melt together and we'll see prison-colony-on-a-magical-mountain-run-by-wizards-that-are-an-offshoot-of-a-dwarven-civ-and-they-are-also-a-mercenary-band-mode?
Adventure mode shenanigans CAN include managing your wizards tower if you have one. He has talked about running sites in adventure mode in the df talks many times before, you would give orders and all that stuff, much like fort mode, just, more directly. And your underlings will then run off and do the work while you do your wizard stuff. Just imagine running around, giving your workers orders. And them doing them. Or you giving your underlings orders, who then tell their underlings to do orders, who then do them.
Site management doesn't need to be limited to fort mode. You can run a site from your characters perspective by giving orders.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 06, 2019, 05:35:40 pm
Loved the answers this time around, getting so hyped for villains! :D Here's a question I forgot to post for said FoTF post.Retired adventurers become regular historical figures right now.
With the expansion to relationships between historical figures that's been discussed for this pass, are there any plans to do the same (in the background of course) for player adventurers? I remember reading somewhere that currently adventurers don't have any romantic/sexual orientation which results in them not doing things like taking lovers or getting married and having children. The fact they will stay with their previous traveling companions where they retired is pretty nice. But for a player like myself, where being able to get an adventurer to retirement is something of a rarity, it'd be kind of nice to know my former adventurer became more of a part of the world aside from whatever accomplishments they achieved after I take my focus away from them.
They don't do an awful lot, but in the big scheme of things neither do many others. Perhaps there will be more for them to do with the new update.
What would be interesting to know is:
Is there anything you've hard-coded into retired adventurers to prevent them from certain activities (besides relationships which I think you've mentioned before). So things like joining merc bands, becoming a goblin poet master's apprentice, etc?
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on March 06, 2019, 05:48:29 pm
Retired adventurers become regular historical figures right now.
They don't do an awful lot, but in the big scheme of things neither do many others. Perhaps there will be more for them to do with the new update.
What would be interesting to know is:
Is there anything you've hard-coded into retired adventurers to prevent them from certain activities (besides relationships which I think you've mentioned before). So things like joining merc bands, becoming a goblin poet master's apprentice, etc?
I'm aware they become regular historical figures, though I'm glad to know it wasn't just that one adventurer's crippling spine injury (lower spine I think) that was preventing her from doing things as a historical figure. :o And I also second that question.
Post by: therahedwig on March 07, 2019, 04:17:08 am
The primary reason adventurers don't get married is because they're asexual, and they are asexual because the guys didn't want to force the sexuality of the character on the player(so, if you wanted to play a homosexual, you don't have to cope with the character being hardcoded to bisexual, etc.) but it's going to take until a relationship-interaction overhaul before adventurers can actually do anything. Hopefully they can get friends when retired next version, even if they could only be war buddies(fairs don't happen post-worlgen)...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 07, 2019, 04:46:43 am
I've had a retired adventurer die because they were in a town attacked by goblins(and they fought against the goblins, killing a few before succumbing).It's also, from a technical point of view, simply because if you retire a heterosexual adventurer, get married and have kids, then unretire, Toady has to write dialogue and basic behaviour for interactions with spouse and kids.
The primary reason adventurers don't get married is because they're asexual, and they are asexual because the guys didn't want to force the sexuality of the character on the player(so, if you wanted to play a homosexual, you don't have to cope with the character being hardcoded to bisexual, etc.) but it's going to take until a relationship-interaction overhaul before adventurers can actually do anything. Hopefully they can get friends when retired next version, even if they could only be war buddies(fairs don't happen post-worlgen)...
The intention is to allow adventurers to have relationships at some point.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 07, 2019, 09:53:10 am
(As currently in character generation you already have fine grain control over all your personality facets, and under the hood sexual orientation is represented by a bunch of different values rather than just a switch between homosexual, heterosexual, asexual, etc. I'd expect that once the player adventurer can have romantic relationships the player will have full control over that rather than just a list of options.)
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 07, 2019, 01:40:19 pm
I wonder how new players will react when eventually you can set your character's sexual orientation in a very fine-tuned way as soon as you start adventurer mode.
(As currently in character generation you already have fine grain control over all your personality facets, and under the hood sexual orientation is represented by a bunch of different values rather than just a switch between homosexual, heterosexual, asexual, etc. I'd expect that once the player adventurer can have romantic relationships the player will have full control over that rather than just a list of options.)
You will need to set it so the player adventure acts correctly when retired.He talked about this on the df talk about legacies of adventurers.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 07, 2019, 02:15:42 pm
Post by: Putnam on March 07, 2019, 06:48:39 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 07, 2019, 10:13:55 pm
Hm? Yeah, that's why it can't be like most games where we just assume that all PCs are bisexual. Here characters can end up making decisions without the player's direct input.And just like the way we can make our pacifist adventurers murder rabbits by the bucketload (with only a trace of tears to represent the trapped pacifist soul screaming at its lack of control), we'll be able to play adventurers any how we like, regardless of sexuality setting.
Post by: therahedwig on March 08, 2019, 05:50:18 am
I hope we'll see more 'adventures affecting the adventurer'. I know there's like a simple trauma simulation in form of an alcohol dependency, but I've never played an adventurer long enough to know whether the dwarf style remembering also affects them, and I suspect the eventual idea is to have the player's intentions to play a psychopathic murderer also be reflected in the character so they behave appropriately afterwards...
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 08, 2019, 10:54:06 am
I think Egan was making a 'oh, DF is sooo detailed, even x has twenty sliders'-joke, because most people aren't considering sexuality in terms of commitment for example. :)
I hope we'll see more 'adventures affecting the adventurer'. I know there's like a simple trauma simulation in form of an alcohol dependency, but I've never played an adventurer long enough to know whether the dwarf style remembering also affects them, and I suspect the eventual idea is to have the player's intentions to play a psychopathic murderer also be reflected in the character so they behave appropriately afterwards...
Adventurers can also "not care about anything anymore" my current adventurer (he goes around the world into various dungeons to slay the animal people there, and any elf he sees)has that . I would imagine the player adventurer would have dwarf style remembering since its using the same exact emotion/memories system for them. To the game the player adventurer is just an asexual hist fig that happens to be played by the player. There is nothing special about the adventurers. To look at the thoughts of your adventurer just loo[k] at them. Then you will see your characters thoughts screen.
Post by: Dwarf_guy on March 08, 2019, 03:58:28 pm
2: Will magic users be able to play with physics in any way? As in gravity say?
3: If so, (after boats are implemented I would assume) would fortresses in the middle of the ocean be possible? If able, a magician could part the ocean for long enough to build the framework, for example.
4: Also if so, would floating fortresses be possible in any form?
5: In adventure mode, will flying ships be implemented in anyway, or even be possible? I just really want to descend on an unsuspecting town from the sky to raid and pillage.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 08, 2019, 05:44:22 pm
1: Will magic users be able to effect the geography of the world?1. Indirectly as a minimum, i.e. summoning/performing rituals that result in changes/releasing powerful entities that affect changes, etc/changing cosmic power balances that result in a different sphere dominating. Probably not in the first Myth & Magic release, though.
2: Will magic users be able to play with physics in any way? As in gravity say?
3: If so, (after boats are implemented I would assume) would fortresses in the middle of the ocean be possible? If able, a magician could part the ocean for long enough to build the framework, for example.
4: Also if so, would floating fortresses be possible in any form?
5: In adventure mode, will flying ships be implemented in anyway, or even be possible? I just really want to descend on an unsuspecting town from the sky to raid and pillage.
2. Sounds reasonable. Flying/levitation spells are common enough in fantasy.
3. In principle, but hard in practice, if by "fortress" you mean a fortress mode one rather than an adventure mode one. It's a bit tricky to get a starting team with a wagon to keep afloat long enough for their wizard to do the stuff required (but starting scenarios may change things, especially when boats are around).
4. Floating and flying fortresses are probably going to be possible, although you may have to start from a pre existing "platform", such as a flying/floating island. After all, it's something that appears in fantasy a fair bit. Flying terrain is planned to be available for highly magical worlds, I think.
5. Sounds very reasonable eventually. It would have to be a magic world, or you'd bend the 1400:ish cutoff quite a bit (Jules Verne:esque, at a minimum, as a "ship" sort of implies a heavier than air vessel, rather than a balloon [although a zeppelin might work]).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 08, 2019, 06:13:35 pm
(I mean, unless testing shows that worldgen just breaks down into volcano spewing megawars obliterating civilization every time...).
Post by: Egan_BW on March 08, 2019, 06:21:23 pm
I think Egan was making a 'oh, DF is sooo detailed, even x has twenty sliders'-joke, because most people aren't considering sexuality in terms of commitment for example. :)
I mean, it's not a joke. It's just how things are. It would be pretty incomplete if adventurer sexuality wasn't something you could set, or if it were simply a list of options. The remaining option is that you get some sliders at character generation, which new players might find surprising. None of that is exaggeration, it's just how DF appears to work, in my opinion.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 08, 2019, 06:23:39 pm
(I mean, unless testing shows that worldgen just breaks down into volcano spewing megawars obliterating civilization every time...).
I mean it would be cool for that to happen sometimes...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 08, 2019, 06:29:34 pm
Oh yes, absolutely. :)(I mean, unless testing shows that worldgen just breaks down into volcano spewing megawars obliterating civilization every time...).
I mean it would be cool for that to happen sometimes...
Post by: Egan_BW on March 08, 2019, 06:32:05 pm
What are the societal implications of every single dwarf having a magical ability to kill any creature with a touch? Maybe they're too dangerous to be allowed into human cities, and have complicated laws to keep that power in check. Or maybe dwarven lands are just a chaotic murder-realm which sometimes unleashes an extremely deadly deathtouch martial artist on an unsuspecting world.
Of course it's rather optimistic that the game will be able to handle setups like that gracefully at first. But things should still be fun in high randomness high magic worlds.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 08, 2019, 09:51:40 pm
Worlds where various magic bullshit is available to lots of potentially-irresponsible people are likely to be the more surprising and entertaining ones, at least until other truly world-changing things exist.
What are the societal implications of every single dwarf having a magical ability to kill any creature with a touch? Maybe they're too dangerous to be allowed into human cities, and have complicated laws to keep that power in check. Or maybe dwarven lands are just a chaotic murder-realm which sometimes unleashes an extremely deadly deathtouch martial artist on an unsuspecting world.
Of course it's rather optimistic that the game will be able to handle setups like that gracefully at first. But things should still be fun in high randomness high magic worlds.
his plan is to make the world react appropriately to different magic systems. So yes he will try his best to make the world react appropriately to those sorts of situations. Im sure it wont be anywhere near perfect at first though.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on March 09, 2019, 02:39:54 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 10, 2019, 02:26:52 am
Post by: Putnam on March 10, 2019, 03:09:18 am
I think Egan was making a 'oh, DF is sooo detailed, even x has twenty sliders'-joke, because most people aren't considering sexuality in terms of commitment for example. :)
No, Egan was just matter-of-factly describing how Dwarf Fortress handles orientation.
Post by: therahedwig on March 10, 2019, 04:02:58 am
Edit: I just felt bad for Egan that they were just making a statement about how people get surprised at df's complexity and instead of empathy the point got a dry answer, that's all. So I tried pointing out it wasn't a question that needed to have a dry answer.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 10, 2019, 08:21:58 pm
Spoiler: digression (click to show/hide)
Post by: scourge728 on March 11, 2019, 08:01:29 am
There's a part of my brain that's always looking for jokes or funny things or unusual angles to insert that will draw conversation in a direction more entertaining to me.[/spoiler]me_irl
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 11, 2019, 01:30:48 pm
QuoteIt might be too much work to support them, and it would be pretty simple to ensure that one of the procgen'd races ticks enough of the fort mode necessities. Mainly the digging part, since outdoor constructions are still clunky. If we get to a point where an outdoor race would be fun to play, and has enough of its other bells and whistles respected, I'd be fine with that. It just doesn't feel like we are quite there. Overall though, I think procedural fort races will build a bit of that development pressure, the way things often work, since supporting their other quirks will be something that can be done more piecemeal without it feeling utterly broken... and then suddenly I might realize or be reminded, "oh, human castle mode is basically ready" or something like that. (naturally, the 17x17 sites wouldn't be supported due to memory concerns** -- another road into this is the scenario-related smaller work sites that everybody will have; "human lumber camp" is another possible path to playable humans.)Source: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7724610;topicseen#msg7724610
** (though without digging and with the map-rewrite, loading a 17x17 human embark suddenly becomes totally feasible, as the deep elevations which would normally blow-out memory and create an underground-life pathing nightmare could simply be ignored; though citizen path-finding would probably be slightly more costly as the map would be less compact -- that doesn't mean we'd be able to have all 10000 citizens of one of those human capitals loaded, but it does mean you could play a 200 person human 'town' with a small market and have the usual FPS problems, but no more than that)
:)
... Will there still be a sort of 'Wizard tower' mode for wizards(as per old dev notes), or will our interaction with wizards be primarily adventure mode shenanigans with occasionally a wizard histfig messing things up in fortmode? Or is everything just gonna melt together and we'll see prison-colony-on-a-magical-mountain-run-by-wizards-that-are-an-offshoot-of-a-dwarven-civ-and-they-are-also-a-mercenary-band-mode?
Adventure mode shenanigans CAN include managing your wizards tower if you have one. He has talked about running sites in adventure mode in the df talks many times before, you would give orders and all that stuff, much like fort mode, just, more directly. And your underlings will then run off and do the work while you do your wizard stuff. Just imagine running around, giving your workers orders. And them doing them. Or you giving your underlings orders, who then tell their underlings to do orders, who then do them.
Site management doesn't need to be limited to fort mode. You can run a site from your characters perspective by giving orders.
I wanted to add to this:
Right now you can tell your companions build your site for you and then you can leave and they will build it while you are away, it will work much the same for other orders presumably in site management.
"butcher this corse"
"build this"
Order driven, but from your characters perspective.
etc.
Post by: ArtemiusTheHuman on March 12, 2019, 12:21:00 am
My english is not so good, so sorry for probable mistakes.
I have some questions/suggestions for Fortress Mode:
1) More suggestion, than question. Wild animal people and some creatures like trolls, gorlaks and troglodits [CAN_LEARN]. How about possibility to train them, when they encaged, making them a citisens of your fortress? They are almost useless now, but can be very useful for creating of multinational fortresses.
2) About religions. Will there be a possibility for dwarfs (or others) in your fortress to found a new religion? Maybe as a very rare happening? Or this only world-creational option?
3) Can religions spread with books? How about optional holy bibles for some of them?))
4) About mecenaries. Can they recruit citizens of your fortress for their band? Maybe, unhappy citisens will be willing to leave fortress and join such bands, and they will file a petition, denying which will cause even more bad thoughts?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 12, 2019, 12:28:04 am
Hi!I think 4 would be tremendous.
My english is not so good, so sorry for probable mistakes.
I have some questions/suggestions for Fortress Mode:
1) More suggestion, than question. Wild animal people and some creatures like trolls, gorlaks and troglodits [CAN_LEARN]. How about possibility to train them, when they encaged, making them a citisens of your fortress? They are almost useless now, but can be very useful for creating of multinational fortresses.
2) About religions. Will there be a possibility for dwarfs (or others) in your fortress to found a new religion? Maybe as a very rare happening? Or this only world-creational option?
3) Can religions spread with books? How about optional holy bibles for some of them?))
4) About mecenaries. Can they recruit citizens of your fortress for their band? Maybe, unhappy citisens will be willing to leave fortress and join such bands, and they will file a petition, denying which will cause even more bad thoughts?
Dorfs need ways to leave your fortress to deal with their unhappiness and stress and stuff. Having your legendary but bored axelord join a bunch of mercs who you paid to protect you before they all leave for more interesting places would be great.
To the suggestions forum with you!
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 12, 2019, 04:16:07 am
1. Gremlins are the only creatures that can be "recruited" from the wild, and there are quite a few bugs in that implementation. Gorlaks, Plump Helmet Men, and animal people are reasonable extensions of that "recruiting strategy", but will probably wait for a future implementation of animal people tribes and tribal interaction before anything is done with those (together with the bugs affecting the recruiting). Slow learners (trolls, ogres, troglodytes) are more problematic as it would require figuring out how to create a society where they fit in, as dwarven ethics doesn't allow for slavery, and that presumably includes veiled versions of it, such as indenture, caste stratified societies, etc.
2. Founding new religions would be quite rare, or the world would get overrun by new religions popping up, flaring, and fizzling out (and the rate of that might well become a slider control), and that, in extension, means it happening in a player fortress would be very rare. As far as I understand it new religions are intended to be possible to appear during game play, so the question of whether it will be possible in a player fortress basically comes down to how much extra work it would be required to make it possible (cool, but it has to be worth the effort required).
3. Currently not, but it certainly would be reasonable for holy scriptures to act in a way similar to value books. Note, though, that DF is a poly pantheon world generally (like the ancient times in the real world), and so doesn't mesh well with the modern worlds monopolistic monotheistic religions, which are the ones producing the most known holy scriptures (not saying polytheistic religions don't have them too). A scripture trying to gain your support for Artemis would not really do anything about your opinion about Jupiter, while one rooting for Allah would at the same time require you to distance yourself from all other gods (not that it has stopped practitioners from trying to cull favors from multiple monopolistic gods concurrently in the past and present...). However, you can't just have books pulling you towards gods, or you might end up with dorfs who don't have enough hours in the day to pray to them all (which already happens...), so there has to be some balancing mechanism.
4. Currently not, as residents and citizens currently are under player control (residents sometimes under too little control, though), with the recent option of sending them to other settlements (or banish them) being the only exit paths (apart from the old one of more or less accidental death).
Post by: squamous on March 13, 2019, 04:57:25 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on March 13, 2019, 05:01:57 pm
1) Just what will enhanced graphics mean?
2) Will the steam version get steam workshop support for mods?
3) Will the steam version technically be downloadable on the bay12games/dwarves page? Steam only lets you run the newest version of a game and will immediately overwrite your current game files, which id have to backup before updating, and if i want to play older versions of the steam game it would be absolutely necessary to have access to it there.
4) How different will the "classic" version end up being?
To be fair ive been playing for 12 years now, since i was 14, and this is new and scary and im not sure if i like it, but if you think its necessary for you, you know whats best.
Post by: Meph on March 13, 2019, 06:15:43 pm
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. No idea.
4. The only changes are sprites, audio files and Steam-related stuff like achievements.
All answers to be taken with a grain of salt, since I just push pixels and can be wrong. ;)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 14, 2019, 04:05:06 am
Meph can answer too of course if he knows (what's the Meph colour?) :)
Putting this here just in case the upcoming Q&A's end up in obscure timezones...
Post by: Inarius on March 14, 2019, 04:21:26 am
Post by: Putnam on March 14, 2019, 04:22:28 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 14, 2019, 04:31:48 am
Yes, this is been answered in basically every other thread and I thought it was answered in the previous post by meph but apparently it wasn'tOh good. There are an awful lot of very busy threads right now. I didn't spot it. So, it's a Tarn developed enhancement, not something by Kitfox? (Just a link to "all the other threads" is fine).
--edit
Ok. Found it. Took a while with a lot of misinformation even from Meph mentioning the graphics capabilities "in the Steam version", but eventually:
Quote
"Will the free, classic version of DF have the same modding and graphical support as the Steam version?"http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173473.0
Meph: Yes.
Feeling reassured.
Post by: Urist_McSwitzer on March 14, 2019, 07:11:47 am
For Armok!
8)
Post by: therahedwig on March 14, 2019, 07:35:58 am
I was actually pleasantly surprised that the modding capabilities stays fully the same between the two 'versions', but I guess keeping two versions of the codebase is a massive pain. So now we'll get a version with just curses and a version with full assets and steam workshop.
Post by: Death Dragon on March 14, 2019, 02:03:50 pm
Yes, as far as I understand it, the only relationship kitfox has is 'wrangling steam and itch and small legal stuff so Tarn doesn't have to learn it'.Might be good to point out though that Kitfox will get a portion of the revenue from the steam and itch sales:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xwhi1KKp5QD9R4-euZ0JqRB0vHdNPqdBJXjIgp-yYHA/preview?ts=5c786ef7/pubhtml
This also says that apparently 80% of the steam money goes to Bay12
Post by: Immortal-D on March 14, 2019, 09:54:56 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 14, 2019, 10:04:14 pm
If you don't mind me asking; the circumstances of the Steam launch are troubling. Do you ever go jogging, bike riding, etc.?Healthcare is helpful when someone hits you with a truck while out jogging/cycling too. So, regardless of the answer he'd probably choose to go Steam anyhow.
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 14, 2019, 10:19:37 pm
If you don't mind me asking; the circumstances of the Steam launch are troubling. Do you ever go jogging, bike riding, etc.?
It was because of a cancer scare, jogging wont save you from cancer.
One can get cancer no matter how healthy they are.
If he lived in Canada/the UK/Australia/Denmark/whatever first world country that isn't the US he wouldn't have to worry about going bankrupt over cancer. But here he does, so he needs to be able to afford healthcare.
Insensitive question. I guess maybe you didnt know it was about cancer.
(People die in the US due to lack of access to basic healthcare. Annually there are 45,000 deaths where the main reason is lack of access to basic healthcare in the US (According To A Harvard and Cambridge study). This is not a problem in countries with healthcare for all, we also have the most medical bankruptcies in the world)
Sorry for the rant. I shouldn't bring politics here. But you revealed my politics.
Lets all just buy it on steam and itch so our favorite programmer Tarn Adams and our favorite "professional" game designer and "professional" writer Zach Adams don't become statistics. I'm definitely buying it immediately when its available. (The professional bit was a reference to the df talks)
Post by: Meph on March 14, 2019, 10:43:39 pm
(See my sig.)
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 14, 2019, 10:45:41 pm
I go bike riding. :DYes, bike riding is fun.
(See my sig.)
*calms down*
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 14, 2019, 11:59:31 pm
Me too!I go bike riding. :DYes, bike riding is fun.
(See my sig.)
*calms down*
At least I did until I was actually hit by a truck.
(Healthcare is fairly decent here in Japan, and trucks are small).
Post by: Inarius on March 15, 2019, 02:58:29 am
So well, biking is certainly not the first thing i think about for "health" in general. Very fun, very convenient yes. But well.
(At least healthcare is almost free in France, by "free" i mean pre-paid via taxes by everybody :)
Post by: Antares on March 15, 2019, 03:15:26 am
If so, would this extend to custom tilesets/graphics?
Post by: clinodev on March 15, 2019, 05:42:50 am
Here are the links:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/b147yh/im_tarn_aka_toady_one_dwarf_fortress_is_coming_to/?depth=10
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/b15o8z/hi_im_tarn_adams_cocreator_of_dwarf_fortress_and/?depth=10
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 15, 2019, 06:07:50 am
- In the near term: The writing of a new graphics engine will obviously take time, so
1a: Do you have a ballpark guess of how long it will take, i.e. days/weeks/months/seasons...?
1b: When do you plan to write the engine? My guess would be that you'd finish the villain release and a few essential bug fix releases and then do the engine, followed by bug fix releases of things found while the engine was produced. The dev page hasn't been updated to cover this yet (as of this writing).
1c: Are you adamant in doing it yourself rather than contracting competent community members for the task (especially if the 1a estimate is beyond "a few weeks", as I would expect it to be)?
- In the long term:
2. Do you intend to change the way you work as a result of this? I'm primarily aiming the question at how you deal with bugs during the rather long (semi) major development cycles, as a Long Wait with a growing pile of reported bugs and no bug fixes is likely to result in DF being labeled as abandonware by many. I expect a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth concerning bugs whatever you do due to the nature of DF and its development, but some outcomes are worse than others.
Edit: 1b and 2 have been answered below by quotes from other fora, and so have been de-Toadified color wise.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 15, 2019, 06:42:46 am
From Toady on the Discord:
Quote
> re: schedule. Villains -> fixes -> code for steam -> steam release -> whatever panicky stuff needs to be fixed -> pre-magic other stuff (armies, adv med, wtvr) -> magic big wait
Why would anything change, besides moving forward the graphics engine in the schedule? He's been talking about limitations to the current tileset for ages now so was going to have to do it at some point. He's not going to suddenly open source his game to random people. No doubt he's taking advice from his new colleagues though.
And random people on Steam will label Dwarf Fortress "abandonware" whatever happens. Just one of the risks which will happen no matter what he does. Luckily there's a big enough community that's been following the game for years who know otherwise. Just a question of marketing.
I've followed Crusader Kings since 2012. A commercial game that I've spent far too much money on. That still has bugs. Some years old. It took years before fatal slowdown in the endgame was anything near playable. It also made a huge amount of money (and continues to do so).
Post by: Knight Otu on March 15, 2019, 07:42:40 am
2. Do you intend to change the way you work as a result of this? I'm primarily aiming the question at how you deal with bugs during the rather long (semi) major development cycles, as a Long Wait with a growing pile of reported bugs and no bug fixes is likely to result in DF being labeled as abandonware by many. I expect a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth concerning bugs whatever you do due to the nature of DF and its development, but some outcomes are worse than others.From the Reddit AMA:
Quote
It's early and we haven't gotten to the initial release, so I haven't thought too much about plans for the intermittent waits. Certainly we are now planning to be able to fix bugs a little more easily during waits -- for instance, we had that weapon trap crash bug that lasted all through one of them, and that was not good. So we'll plan for patches concurrent with feature work now. At the same time, the development works the way it works because so many systems are interconnected; sometimes a long wait is just the best way to go, at least the way I conceive of things. If that causes some issues, or some dips, then, well, I hope we'll be fine! If we have to adjust again, like we're adjusting now, we will.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 15, 2019, 08:11:39 am
If the tile set limitations are going to be addressed as well, the rewrite is larger than I thought, as well as having a larger impact, as I assume that means increasing the number of bits used for assets (in which case there might not be any need for a world map tile set, as that could just be a subset of a larger one, which is one of the points mifki listed as a wished for feature in the TwbT thread). The support for a larger tile set would definitely be welcome as such, but I think the timing could be better (i.e. not as a derail of a detour of a departure from the Myth & Magic development, and getting it done within a somewhat reasonable time frame from The Announcement to an actual Steam/Itch release might be challenging as well). There's never a really good time, though.
"Open source" is vastly different from making the code available to hand picked people (with suitable conditions both on the readability/level of commenting/coding style of the outsourced code [so Toady can maintain it should he wish to/need to], and requirements that the DF source code is handled in a suitable manner). I agree it's a wise move to use a trusted intermediary to handle the administration for the tile set work, though, and hope both Kitfox and the artists can provide some useful feedback as well.
I agree some people will label DF as abandonware no matter what (if I understand it correctly there's some banned bugger who's already on a crusade of revenge on Steam), but the crucial thing is neither a small number of malcontents, nor a confident community (who's currently over here), but what happens with those in between. If the general perception is negative DF will likely suffer from fewer who's willing to try it out despite poor ratings (which is what a generally negative perception would result in). I also disagree it's a matter of spin doctoring: there's an important element of meeting expectations, as well as setting the expectations appropriately (the latter can be helped a bit with proper marketing, but not the former). I'd expect the average Steam customer to be far less tolerant when it comes to both slow development and late and feeble bug fixing (i.e. a constantly growing mountain of outstanding bugs) than the current community, with little to no understanding or care for the current development method. We're joining Toady's ride, but Steam customers are temporary licencees (due to Steam's horrible EULA), and likely expect to be treated as customers.
Thanks to Knight Otu as well, posting another off site quote while I wrote this post (and it's good to hear Toady is going to try to adjust the process to better meet expectations). I don't think long development waits is as much of an issue as a lack of bug fixing, although I think there's a need to fix some intermediate bugs in parallel during the development waits as well as the fatal ones to provide a sense of progress and developer presence to those who don't follow the game development as such, just play the game.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 15, 2019, 10:24:31 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: DG on March 15, 2019, 10:48:11 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on March 15, 2019, 12:20:07 pm
Not sure if there's any kind of netiquette regarding these things, but gathered up those parts of the reddit AMA (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/b147yh/im_tarn_aka_toady_one_dwarf_fortress_is_coming_to/?depth=10) (with a bit of pruning) that felt relevant to development for those that don't want to sift through the whole thing.You missed a few including my own question but all in all not bad.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 15, 2019, 12:30:00 pm
You missed a few including my own question but all in all not bad.
Skipped over stuff that was more general or non-future dev questions or already answered etc to keep it less unwieldy, and stuck to just Tarns answers (but may well have missed relevant stuff too or made seemingly bad calls on what to skip, not used to reddit either and some stuff seemed to want to hide itself). For those interested there's plenty more interesting stuff there, as well as some answers from Mayday and Meph on the tileset work and modding ^^
Edit: Right, you asked stuff in the r/gamedev AMA, felt like there wasn't much there that weren't too niche/relevant enough to copy so just skipped that :P
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 16, 2019, 12:39:52 am
As I read through Meph's threads explaining the tons of sprites that will make the graphical version of DF so interesting, it becomes obvious (as I think it did to you back with Armok I) that graphics can never show everything you want them too. That leaves them as highly detailed, colourful representations, which I guess people accept more so in 2D than 3D but to me is not much more useful than an ASCII character (but that's just me - whatever attracts new players is cool I guess).
So, and I suppose it might be too early to tell, but with all this new income, official graphical version, back up of tremendously cool people...do you feel any pressure to reconsider any features from the point of view of "will this work in the graphical version"?
Examples might be, say, the Half-Elf issue. If you attempt it, it's going to be a lot of work just for the coding. But for tilesets? Sprites for half, quarter, a little bit elves? Green half-goblins? Pale half-goblins with red eyes (two variations from three-toe's own stories). The scope of procgen critters post myth-gen? It's all going to be a headache for the graphics guys but it all seems so essential to making dwarf fortress what it is. (And I guess the reason I'll play the Steam version in ascii, statues of famous bards represented by statues of armoured dwarves just annoys me).
To clarify, I don't mean contractual pressure, but just on the level of consideration for Meph and Mayday's sanity.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 16, 2019, 12:43:50 am
Post by: Death Dragon on March 16, 2019, 02:23:16 am
I say let 'em go insane trying to render maggot people. :)I agree with this. I hope Toady won't let graphical considerations stop him from creating the most extreme fantasy world generator.
As far as I know, one thing you really appreciated about DF was that you didn't have any responsibility towards anyone and you could work on anything you want at any pace you want. Do you feel any sort of mental "consequences" due to putting the game up for sale? Do you feel differently now that you're going to have "customers"?
On Discord you said that most new graphics effects like the transparency feature etc have already been implemented into the game. For how long have you been working on these things exactly? Did you do them secretly at the side during the villain update?
Edit:
Last months answers were really cool:
That is awesome to hear. I hope there will be some cool stories stemming from that.Quote from: Death DragonIt's planned that, when you expel someone, the person will remember that negatively and if they have villainous tendencies, they might want to take revenge on you in some way, right?Yeah, I should set that up -- I've made a note. As PatrikLundell said, they have personality-based reactions to it already, and if it does upset them greatly, it should be able to be the basis of a vendetta if they have the proper tendencies.
Would there be a chance that the same could happen when you decline a visitor's petition request or do they currently not care about it either way when you decline those?
This is amazingly interesting to me. I didn't know it was already possibly for books to change the values of a civilisation. This isn't something you can currently look up in legends mode, is it?Quote from: Death DragonA while ago in this devlog (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2018-12-07), you talked about how the infrastructure of a site can affect and change the population. Do you have an ability like this planned for libraries in the short term, too? For example, them being able to change the moral values of the site population based on what kind of books are stored in it?Libraries have an effect in world gen in the currently released version, based on the original and copied books that are there. Every year, each library gets five turns to pick a book. If the book has a poetic/music/dance form, it has a chance to make that form well-known in the entire parent civ, as a form of cultural diffusion. If the book promotes a value at a certain level, it makes a roll against the author's skill roll when they made the book. The local site civ can have their values shifted by 1-2 point (it takes 10 or more to change the visible text for the value), and the parent civ can also be shifted a point, and all sites under the parent civ have a chance to be shifted a point as well. It's a very rough system (and it doesn't respond gracefully based on the number of books, etc. etc.), but there's something there.
Just to confirm: With "in world gen" you just mean the initial world generation, right? Not the time passing after the world has been finalised?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 16, 2019, 03:42:19 am
Post by: Hapchazzard on March 16, 2019, 08:29:06 am
Second, wow, a graphical DF release, honestly didn't expect this in the near future and am (very pleasantly) surprised! The new graphics look really good!
Since audio is also in the works, thought I'd ask a question about it: are there any potential plans for the Steam release (or later) to have 'ambient sounds', e.g. water dripping/echos in caverns, generic forest sounds when in a woodland, crowd sounds when in a congregated area (such as a tavern), etc.?
Second, more related to the graphical features, I've noticed in the graphical previews that sentient critters in battle actually have differing equipment, armor and appearances - some dwarfs have swords, some maces, some crossbows, some spears, etc. This is another very exciting thing for me. If this will actually be a feature, how far will it go in differentiating sentient creatures by equipment/state? Will it
change their sprites based on:
1. Equipped equipment, and it's state?
2. Clothing, and it's state?
3. Physical appearance, such as bald dwarfs actually being bald, etc.?
4. Wounds, from generic bloodiness when wounded, to possibly even more specific wounds (e.g. decapitation being shown, though I am fully aware that this might be a bit too graphical/gory). Possibly bandages when wounds are healing, also.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 16, 2019, 09:32:46 am
Post by: Hapchazzard on March 16, 2019, 10:26:51 am
There are ongoing discussions regarding the new graphics over in the mod/tilesets forum with Meph & Mayday (who are making them). Held weapons and such can be seen in the sprites, while clothing seems to be undergoing debate (dyed red tunic should be red, or colours should match profession as in Classic, etc). Facial hair and hairstyles are hoped for too.
Just checked, very interesting thread! Thanks for the heads-up!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 17, 2019, 05:01:36 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 17, 2019, 08:00:30 am
Now that there are people other than you looking at graphics, another at music and presumably someone thinking about achievements and stuff, how do you want the Suggestions to work from now on? Continue to throw everything into the Bay12 Suggestions forum and you'll pass on anything you think you want in your game? Or some other way to pass on Suggestions directly?The people involved shouldn't have any great problems with locating relevant Suggestion sub forum threads, so my opinion (not being Toady, of course) is that the sub forum should work well regardless of the type of suggestions, although suggestion writers may want to try to keep suggestions that would target different people separated into different threads. At the end of the day, it would be Toady who made the decision, of course, but there's no reason for the various people in the implementation team not to communicate (via the tread or privately) to build a basis for a decision.
Post by: Criperum on March 17, 2019, 08:03:26 am
Post by: therahedwig on March 17, 2019, 08:24:36 am
Post by: Criperum on March 17, 2019, 08:29:08 am
Post by: therahedwig on March 17, 2019, 09:45:28 am
EDIT: Looking back the main thing that stumbled me up and inspired me to find a tutorial was that I didn't understand you start with designating things first before you start building, I was so confused why I couldn't build things.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 17, 2019, 10:09:09 am
I mean managing dwarfes and searching in most game windows provided by them is hard to overestimate.
Not really, I see people overestimate it all the time. Right now, for example~
Most new players would just be even more intimidated by a big spreadsheet showing all the dwarves and their skills and permissions and such. It's really not necessary or helpful until you're managing 200 dwarves and want them all to be maximally effective at building some big dumb megastructure.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 17, 2019, 11:39:08 am
Will the steam version of the game have 3rd party utilities most people used to have like dfhack and dwarf therapist? I mean managing dwarfes and searching in most game windows provided by them is hard to overestimate. Or maybe the steam version will have the same functionality introduced?If I've understood the discussion correctly, the commercial and Classic versions should be sufficiently similar that tools made for one version would generally work with the other. I find it hard to see an LNP for the commercial versions, unless it would somehow locate the installed game and then wrap the utilities in with it, but it would probably still have to be distinct from the LNPs we have now. Ironically, the commercial version users may see more of a problem getting easy access to the tools than the Classic one, which probably isn't good from a commercial standpoint. It might be a good idea for Toady to discuss how external tools such as DT and DFHack based ones can be added/removed easily (and while I'm on the advice soap box, the Kitfox people might want to consider a "tutorial" consisting of a canned world and pre selected embark location with pre selected dorfs and equipment where the world is copied before start [to allow the tutorial to be started from scratch again]).
Post by: Furrnox on March 18, 2019, 05:42:34 am
Post by: Criperum on March 18, 2019, 05:45:18 am
If I've understood the discussion correctly, the commercial and Classic versions should be sufficiently similar that tools made for one version would generally work with the other. I find it hard to see an LNP for the commercial versions, unless it would somehow locate the installed game and then wrap the utilities in with it, but it would probably still have to be distinct from the LNPs we have now. Ironically, the commercial version users may see more of a problem getting easy access to the tools than the Classic one, which probably isn't good from a commercial standpoint. It might be a good idea for Toady to discuss how external tools such as DT and DFHack based ones can be added/removed easily (and while I'm on the advice soap box, the Kitfox people might want to consider a "tutorial" consisting of a canned world and pre selected embark location with pre selected dorfs and equipment where the world is copied before start [to allow the tutorial to be started from scratch again]).
May be it would be possible using steam workshop(i don't know exactly how it works and what it allows moddeders to do)?
I undestand it might be too early to ask but as we know steam takes 30% of money for themselves and itch.io has a variable percentage. So will those fees be the same on both platforms? I'm just curious which one to choose to be sure more money will go to Adams brothers.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 18, 2019, 05:59:37 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 18, 2019, 07:41:31 am
Post by: Criperum on March 18, 2019, 08:22:50 am
Post by: Dragonslayerelf on March 18, 2019, 09:42:31 am
As Shonai_Dweller indicated, ArtemiusTheHuman's suggestions are mainly suggestions, and belong in the suggestions forum, where Toady will have a greater chance of acting on them (questions in this thread are read, answered, and forgotten [i.e. no particular action is taken after that], while suggestions are looked at from time to time).
1. ...dwarven ethics doesn't allow for slavery, and that presumably includes veiled versions of it, such as indenture, caste stratified societies, etc...
Bit late but not everything needs to fit into the context of just a dwarvish fort. With the wonderful mess that are raw edits, a lot of people like to play with races that aren't dwarves, and something like slavery would fit perfectly in with a goblin or even some kind of modded dark dwarf fort. Additionally, with an ethics change, a dwarven fort might be deemed in your headcanon to view goblins as subhuman and thus employ them in slave labour. Additionally, having played w/ a goblin fort, "slow learners" work like pets that can do basic labors (basically they only haul unless you assign them labors with Dwarf Therapist) but still have moods and can rampage, however, you can't really view their feelings or stressors, which makes them kinda buggy sometimes. Additionally, you can slaughter them still, which, while a good way to get rid of stark raving mad or melancholic trolls, is just weird on concept. Regardless, I don't think it should really be posed as something that should only work for dwarves, as I think I've heard it repeated that Toady intends to work on other races once dwarves are completely done (assumedly after 40,000 when he ascends to God Emperorship) which I, as an avid goblin player, am pleased by. However, even having the option of slavery/cannibalism/etc in raw edits is nice.
However, speaking of, are there any plans to release slavery & cannibalism with the villainy or maybe even the gods & myths update?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 18, 2019, 11:43:19 am
Attempting to provide a temporary answer to the Toady question then: Slavery & cannibalism will most likely remain out of bounds of the fortress mode due to the strong ties to Law and Custom, and rather weak ones to villainy (slave trafficking makes little sense without an economy). My personal guess is that both issues will have to wait until Law & Custom, but there's always a risk/opportunity that it's needed for Myth & Magic generated race support.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 18, 2019, 12:14:58 pm
Quote from: DGWith minor modding the current game allows fort mode to be played with humans, goblins, elves and even kobolds. Presumably this hasn't made it into vanilla because they aren't as feature complete as dwarves and not yet differentiated enough. Is the work around the myth generator likely to change this? I assume some work will need to go into shoe-horning randomly generated high-magic-world races into fortress mode and am wondering if you think this will end up incorporating the original races as playable in vanilla at the same time or if they will wait for their own specific releases focused on the features you want present before making them playable?
It might be too much work to support them, and it would be pretty simple to ensure that one of the procgen'd races ticks enough of the fort mode necessities. Mainly the digging part, since outdoor constructions are still clunky. If we get to a point where an outdoor race would be fun to play, and has enough of its other bells and whistles respected, I'd be fine with that. It just doesn't feel like we are quite there. Overall though, I think procedural fort races will build a bit of that development pressure, the way things often work, since supporting their other quirks will be something that can be done more piecemeal without it feeling utterly broken... and then suddenly I might realize or be reminded, "oh, human castle mode is basically ready" or something like that. (naturally, the 17x17 sites wouldn't be supported due to memory concerns** -- another road into this is the scenario-related smaller work sites that everybody will have; "human lumber camp" is another possible path to playable humans.)
** (though without digging and with the map-rewrite, loading a 17x17 human embark suddenly becomes totally feasible, as the deep elevations which would normally blow-out memory and create an underground-life pathing nightmare could simply be ignored; though citizen path-finding would probably be slightly more costly as the map would be less compact -- that doesn't mean we'd be able to have all 10000 citizens of one of those human capitals loaded, but it does mean you could play a 200 person human 'town' with a small market and have the usual FPS problems, but no more than that)
Post by: therahedwig on March 18, 2019, 12:54:16 pm
Dunno about cannibalism though, might be a bigger candidate for myth and magic, what with the notion of a soul and some ideas about absorbing the strength of what/who you consume, etc.
Post by: Rose on March 18, 2019, 01:04:34 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 18, 2019, 04:28:47 pm
Will the first villain release have any graphics changes? Or will all of them start after that.From Toady on the Discord:
Quote
> re: schedule. Villains -> fixes -> code for steam -> steam release -> whatever panicky stuff needs to be fixed -> pre-magic other stuff (armies, adv med, wtvr) -> magic big wait
Post by: FrankVill on March 19, 2019, 05:26:30 pm
It is not that I find it insufficient, I am really amazed with the current result.
2- Assuming that the first question you answered that there will be improvements / new features ... in what arcs would you develop them? And what would be its relevance in the development of the game beyond creating unique cultures with their own personality (more than enough, in fact)?
3- Will it include art forms for painting or sculpture as well? I guess the important thing is what is shown, but it would also be interesting to know if the style of the painting is Renaissance or impressionist, although that is already a suggestion.
4- If I were a composer who used the rules of a procedural musical form, would I be free to create several themes respecting the rules or is it quite restrictive?
Post by: neblime on March 19, 2019, 09:21:11 pm
when you get to embarks/scenarios and such and forts having a purpose, will that tie in with current villian/hero/historical figure motivations and schemes? i.e. could a powerful noble establish a military fort with the express purpose of increasing his power? or a temple to increase his prestige or something?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 20, 2019, 03:37:34 am
The data structure for music is that a piece generally refers to the musical form (but sometimes the form is used directly), so it should be possible for several pieces to be based on the same form (if I've understood what you mean with "themes" correctly). If, instead, the question is about copyright for real world attempts at creating DF based music I can't answer, but it would be useful to clarify the question if that's the case.
:
4- If I were a composer who used the rules of a procedural musical form, would I be free to create several themes respecting the rules or is it quite restrictive?
Quite likely eventually and in general terms. Embark scenarios will presumably explore as diverse set of starts as possible, but obviously won't be able to cover every possible variant. It's probably way too early to predict what's going to appear or not. I'm sure Toady has some kind of candidate list, but candidates will probably be tossed out if they cause too much trouble, and new ones can appear on a whim or as a result of emerging possibilities and suggestions. I doubt Toady would be willing to show any candidate list beyond what's on the dev page at this stage, though. People have an unfortunate tendency to read "promise" into the word "candidate" and get upset when "their" candidate didn't make it (but he's made a candidate list experiment with villainy, so maybe).
when you get to embarks/scenarios and such and forts having a purpose, will that tie in with current villian/hero/historical figure motivations and schemes? i.e. could a powerful noble establish a military fort with the express purpose of increasing his power? or a temple to increase his prestige or something?
Post by: Inarius on March 20, 2019, 06:16:15 am
It's something i have LONG dreamt of, but...well i'm unsure of it's feasible. I think it's a bit more doable now it can be outsourced.
Post by: therahedwig on March 20, 2019, 10:50:38 am
For 2d art, the main problem is that there's no internal representation of what many objects should look like beyond their ascii representation. So even quite simple things, like the entity symbols, they can have a single tile representation, but without a bigger representation it's quite hard to depict a 'dwarf curled in a fetal position'.
Post by: Inarius on March 20, 2019, 11:04:38 am
Post by: XXX_ANUBIS_XXX on March 22, 2019, 02:02:05 pm
ATM, I can walk out with a towns entire warehouse and not be bothered by even a single concerned citizen. I'd imagine that under realistic circumstances, there would be a few guards on the warehouse, mayhaps with the ability to encourage them to turn a blind eye?
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 22, 2019, 02:28:55 pm
Hey Tarn, any plans for implementing a justice/security system to go with Villains?
ATM, I can walk out with a towns entire warehouse and not be bothered by even a single concerned citizen. I'd imagine that under realistic circumstances, there would be a few guards on the warehouse, mayhaps with the ability to encourage them to turn a blind eye?
You'll want to make your questions lime green so they're easier to pick out at the end of the month ^^
Also, the arc planned for after myth and magic one is planned to involve crime and punishment as well as property ownership stuff (and start scenarios), so most justice stuff will probably wait til then.
Post by: Pillbo on March 23, 2019, 02:57:13 pm
If you don't mind me asking; the circumstances of the Steam launch are troubling. Do you ever go jogging, bike riding, etc.?
Healthcare is helpful when someone hits you with a truck while out jogging/cycling too. So, regardless of the answer he'd probably choose to go Steam anyhow.
It was because of a cancer scare, jogging wont save you from cancer.
One can get cancer no matter how healthy they are.
[...]
Insensitive question. I guess maybe you didnt know it was about cancer.
These responses seem bizarre to me, it seems like a knee-jerk reaction to defend Tarn and his decision from criticism when there was none. The question reads to me as Immortal-D simply saying "I'm concerned about your health, are you taking care of yourself and getting proper exercise?" There is no implication that healthcare isn't important- everyone needs proper healthcare, and it becomes more important as you get older; everyone needs to eat healthy and to exercise (even with good healthcare), and it becomes more important as you get older.
I survived cancer in my late 20s when I was in good health, but that doesn't mean that being in poor health would have made no difference. Preventative care like being active, eating well, avoiding risky behaviors like smoking, drinking, and a sedentary lifestyle are all extremely important for your long-term health and healthcare can't do that for you.
I hope the Adams are taking diet and exercise seriously because I wish them long healthy lives.
_______
I did have a question too, Tarn, I was wondering what your personal opinion is on some of the debates/ideas happening in the Steam suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173532.0) and tileset threads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0)?
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 23, 2019, 03:12:17 pm
Post by: Bumber on March 24, 2019, 03:08:02 am
Tarn, I was wondering what your personal opinion is on some of the debates/ideas happening in the Steam suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173532.0) and tileset threads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0)?You're probably going to have to be more specific unless you're just bringing the thread to his attention.
Post by: Doorkeeper on March 24, 2019, 11:06:21 am
Hey Tarn, any plans for implementing a justice/security system to go with Villains?
ATM, I can walk out with a towns entire warehouse and not be bothered by even a single concerned citizen. I'd imagine that under realistic circumstances, there would be a few guards on the warehouse, mayhaps with the ability to encourage them to turn a blind eye?
In the current version, patrolling guards already exist (at town keeps, goblin pits, etc.), and when a suspicious guard demands the player's identity, we can create secret identities to avoid conflict. The basic mechanics for a justice/security system are currently there and used in adv mode, they just aren't used for warehouses. Suggestions should go to the suggestion forum.
One of the bullets on the development page for Villains is "Better alerts and identity checks", under Hideouts and strongholds. Warehouses will be built (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2018-10-23) by the new merchant/trading company entities (though I'm not sure if these merchant company warehouses are an updated or replaced version of current town warehouses, or a different structure function-wise). It's possible that extra map features will be added onto the structures because their significance got elevated (such as a form of security), but this wasn't implied.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 24, 2019, 04:23:48 pm
Hey Tarn, any plans for implementing a justice/security system to go with Villains?
ATM, I can walk out with a towns entire warehouse and not be bothered by even a single concerned citizen. I'd imagine that under realistic circumstances, there would be a few guards on the warehouse, mayhaps with the ability to encourage them to turn a blind eye?
Post by: Beag on March 28, 2019, 05:53:21 pm
2. With the switch from ascii to graphics will there be any graphics for what a creature is wearing? I ask this because it breaks my immersion a little to see a creature visually wearing one thing then when I check on them with the look command I find out they are wearing something else.
3. Will steam mods for Dwarf Fortress need to have graphics?
4. Will there be any indicator on the steam workshop for if mods are incompatible with each other or will we just need to test it out by running the game and seeing if it crashes?
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 28, 2019, 06:04:07 pm
1. How much do you think Dwarf Fortress will cost on steam?
2. With the switch from ascii to graphics will there be any graphics for what a creature is wearing? I ask this because it breaks my immersion a little to see a creature visually wearing one thing then when I check on them with the look command I find out they are wearing something else.
3. Will steam mods for Dwarf Fortress need to have graphics?
4. Will there be any indicator on the steam workshop for if mods are incompatible with each other or will we just need to test it out by running the game and seeing if it crashes?
1. 19.99$
2. To some extent yes, the details are not yet set though (seems we'll at the very least have accurate sprites for armor and weapons). Meph and Mayday (the guys making the tileset) have a thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0) up in the modding section with more details/discussion/feedback on it if you're interested.
3. There'll be an option to use either tileset graphics or ascii for the steam version, so nope.
No idea on the fourth one.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 28, 2019, 09:56:05 pm
4 would be the same as any other game. Mod creator will let you know if it's compatible or not. Only they know. Expect total overhaul mods to probably not be.1. How much do you think Dwarf Fortress will cost on steam?
2. With the switch from ascii to graphics will there be any graphics for what a creature is wearing? I ask this because it breaks my immersion a little to see a creature visually wearing one thing then when I check on them with the look command I find out they are wearing something else.
3. Will steam mods for Dwarf Fortress need to have graphics?
4. Will there be any indicator on the steam workshop for if mods are incompatible with each other or will we just need to test it out by running the game and seeing if it crashes?
1. 19.99$
2. To some extent yes, the details are not yet set though (seems we'll at the very least have accurate sprites for armor and weapons). Meph and Mayday (the guys making the tileset) have a thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0) up in the modding section with more details/discussion/feedback on it if you're interested.
3. There'll be an option to use either tileset graphics or ascii for the steam version, so nope.
No idea on the fourth one.
Post by: therahedwig on March 29, 2019, 10:20:19 am
What kind of fallback mechanisms are you considering for situations in which unique graphics won't be possible, such as mods?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 29, 2019, 04:47:13 pm
Ah, but that does raise a different interesting question:Ascii mods will still be Ascii. Steam version comes with Ascii tileseset (and is exactly the same, except with the new tileseset, sounds and music).
What kind of fallback mechanisms are you considering for situations in which unique graphics won't be possible, such as mods?
Mods with graphics will use graphics made by the modder.
Same as now, right?
What kind of situation were you thinking of?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 29, 2019, 04:58:40 pm
Will the sound and music be completely moddable too? How will sound effects work? Are they defined for every action in the game, like a whole page of raws for editing as we like? Or as a tag we call from existing raws (which we could add to modded in reactions or combat attacks)?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 30, 2019, 02:49:43 am
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.
- A wider selection of dyes, especially with a wider color palette for the game itself.
Is this something you intend to address before the commercial version launches (e.g. in conjunction with military uniform UI overhaul), or something that would be addressed when (and if) the issue appears? It's not on my top priority list, but I suspect not dealing with it will have a negative impact on DF reception at launch.
The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
Post by: feelotraveller on March 30, 2019, 08:01:08 am
- A wider selection of dyes
I think we already have what we need - Red Green Blue. All that is needed is reactions to mix, oh and Silver Dye (sic) to become an alpha layer. :P
Post by: therahedwig on March 30, 2019, 08:25:24 am
- A wider selection of dyes
I think we already have what we need - Red Green Blue. All that is needed is reactions to mix, oh and Silver Dye (sic) to become an alpha layer. :P
Ah... did you know that the colors assigned to the Red, Green and Blue in DF aren't actually red, green and blue, but rather,
red, emerald and midnight blue? And sliver barb dye is black.
Furthermore, pigments mix subtractively, that is, if you mix them you end up with black. Which is why typically the mixing colors are the bright cyan, magenta and yellow, (though if you're going medieval, it's vermillion red, lemon yellow and ultramarine blue, the reason why we use cyan instead of ultramarine is 1. Ultramarine is made from lapis lazuli, which is expensive, and 2. getting green from cyan+yellow is easier in an abstracted mathematical 3 channel model, where getting green from ultramarine+yellow requires spectral color maths.) Even further, DF has a limited color list to get fancypants color names? So to simulate, the reactions would require multiplying the channels of each color in a pigment and then finding the closest color in the color list.
I'm sorry if you knew this already :D
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 30, 2019, 09:22:09 am
I've read through the thread on the new tile sets, and seen that it appears clothing will be reflected on the characters. I expect that will result in a more or less immediate demand for control over clothing in Fortress Mode in the form of:Did they reach a conclusion in the public thread? There was some discussion, but the main argument from Meph seemed to be that they won't do it (except for military) for the exact reasons you've listed here (not enough dyes, too many combos, more confusing than vanilla colour coded professions, etc).
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.
- A wider selection of dyes, especially with a wider color palette for the game itself.
Is this something you intend to address before the commercial version launches (e.g. in conjunction with military uniform UI overhaul), or something that would be addressed when (and if) the issue appears? It's not on my top priority list, but I suspect not dealing with it will have a negative impact on DF reception at launch.
The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
Post by: feelotraveller on March 30, 2019, 09:37:22 am
I'm sorry if you knew this already :D
Oh, I get that.
Mainly I was having a bit of fun.
Anyway when playing DF we are not looking at mixed-pigments painted on a canvas but rather light emissions of rgb diodes and here the rules for combination are somewhat different.
More seriously I was suggesting that we don't need more dyes but only the reactions needed to create mixtures and these can pull arbitrary RRGGBBAA codes out of the computers, um..., matrix. Whether this ever happens or not is up to Toady and/or modders but it certainly won't be limited by or dictated to by the requirements of painters and printers. ;) Sheesh they could even be arbitrary procgen's and vary from worldgen to worldgen after the magic update. (And yep, far too trivial to be taken seriously...)
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 30, 2019, 12:33:11 pm
As far as I understood the direction was a clothing display with a sash color to indicate labor (and possibly pip's or something to indicate skill level). I finished reading the thread about 24 hours ago, so new posts have probably been added since, but the clothing discussion had died down at that point.I've read through the thread on the new tile sets, and seen that it appears clothing will be reflected on the characters. I expect that will result in a more or less immediate demand for control over clothing in Fortress Mode in the form of:Did they reach a conclusion in the public thread? There was some discussion, but the main argument from Meph seemed to be that they won't do it (except for military) for the exact reasons you've listed here (not enough dyes, too many combos, more confusing than vanilla colour coded professions, etc).
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.
- A wider selection of dyes, especially with a wider color palette for the game itself.
Is this something you intend to address before the commercial version launches (e.g. in conjunction with military uniform UI overhaul), or something that would be addressed when (and if) the issue appears? It's not on my top priority list, but I suspect not dealing with it will have a negative impact on DF reception at launch.
The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
As to the discussion of generation of colors by mixing, that only works if it is mixing before dyeing, a reaction that currently doesn't exist, rather than adding basically non transparent layers on top of each other (and the additive/subtractive issue, plus the sLIver barb dye color [see wiki page]). Meph and Mike defended different viewpoints, but yes, my understanding was that it'd be clothing.
(If it would remain profession based, it would be more useful if the profession displayed was selected among the enabled ones, so you could see that your legendary Cheese Maker you've given the furnace operation duty is shown with that [dabbling] profession, but that would require the profession field to be checked for change on job allocation changes rather than on job skill changes).
Post by: Flying Teasets on March 30, 2019, 01:11:58 pm
I've read through the thread on the new tile sets, and seen that it appears clothing will be reflected on the characters. I expect that will result in a more or less immediate demand for control over clothing in Fortress Mode in the form of:The law and customs update might handle gender roles and gendered clothing. Ceding control of development goals to butthurt bigots on steam would be a dumb idea.
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.
The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
Post by: therahedwig on March 30, 2019, 01:34:44 pm
Though, getting culture appropriate clothes will be fun, especially as some cultures will proceed to have a bronze-age aesthetic where it is a-okay to run around naked: it's warm enough anyway. Cue dozens of bugreports :p
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 30, 2019, 04:50:50 pm
Given that I don't think we've seen the end of clothing issues, butt naked dorfs (as well as dorfs with naked butts) will probably not be uncommon until the clothing replacement logic is changed to drop only when picking up (which will cause issues with militia upgrades), and I don't expect that to be in scope until well after Myth & Magic. I believe someone deliberately tried to spread the idea that being naked was nothing to be ashamed of through the library in a fortress in order to cut down on clothing production (and subsequent disposal), but I think that was before the needs rewrite.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 30, 2019, 06:56:23 pm
I don't really care about those who demand gender specific clothing, but I think that's something that can be achieved easily if desired with a functionality that allows you to define what each dorf and group of dorfs wear for easier grouping, identification, and aesthetic reasons, and it seems color coordination and playing dress-up are fairly popular occupations.They also said "no naked dwarves" over there too. So it seems like they haven't figured this out completely yet. Realistic clothing plus sashes seems like an oxymoron. And one especially geared towards fortress mode.
Given that I don't think we've seen the end of clothing issues, butt naked dorfs (as well as dorfs with naked butts) will probably not be uncommon until the clothing replacement logic is changed to drop only when picking up (which will cause issues with militia upgrades), and I don't expect that to be in scope until well after Myth & Magic. I believe someone deliberately tried to spread the idea that being naked was nothing to be ashamed of through the library in a fortress in order to cut down on clothing production (and subsequent disposal), but I think that was before the needs rewrite.
Meh, they'll figure it out hopefully. Or not, Meph's current tileset apparently ignores Adventurer. Doesn't bode well.
The real annoying thing will be if Toady adjusts his design to fit the difficulties of representation of everything through graphics. Hope that never happens.
Anyhow all discussion for graphics boards, not here. I guess. Forum is now confusing. :)
Post by: Egan_BW on March 30, 2019, 11:59:28 pm
This is the wrong place to state my opinion if I want anyone who can act on it to see it but fuck it I love screaming into the void.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2019, 12:18:28 am
I says make the graphics represent literally what's there, even if that means that you can't tell apart professions visually. If dorf is carrying a pick, probably a miner. If dorf is carrying an axe, probably a woodcutter. And so on.And if a dwarf is wielding a mug, a scroll, a plump helmet or an artifact cabinet (search Reddit...) in battle? Weapon sized sprites for every object in the game?
This is the wrong place to state my opinion if I want anyone who can act on it to see it but fuck it I love screaming into the void.
At some point graphics will have to settle for being representations and not literal depictions.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 31, 2019, 12:23:57 am
Post by: feelotraveller on March 31, 2019, 04:51:50 am
snip... the sLIver barb dye color [see wiki page]). ...snip
It bites!
My dwarfs defend their use of silver dye. ;D
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic#%22Ironic_use%22 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic#%22Ironic_use%22)
Post by: Criperum on March 31, 2019, 02:32:02 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2019, 04:40:52 pm
As you said that you are goingto fix some military issues. Is problem with armor and uniforms one of those planned fixes?When? All bugs will be fixed one day.
Are you talking about something promised for the Steam release?
Post by: Criperum on March 31, 2019, 05:27:24 pm
As you said that you are goingto fix some military issues. Is problem with armor and uniforms one of those planned fixes?When? All bugs will be fixed one day.
Are you talking about something promised for the Steam release?
Edited my question. You are right it was too uncertain.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2019, 05:36:22 pm
Ok. That's clear. :)As you said that you are goingto fix some military issues. Is problem with armor and uniforms one of those planned fixes?When? All bugs will be fixed one day.
Are you talking about something promised for the Steam release?
Edited my question. You are right it was too uncertain.
The focus is on improved siege mechanics and off-site army raising, but yeah, as it's military related hopefully some of the exisitng bugs get looked at too.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2019, 10:43:17 pm
Post by: Toady One on April 01, 2019, 01:39:20 am
Quote from: Dragonslayerelf
1) When will you be able to butcher sentient creatures after an ethics change and then use the gleaned bones/meat to make food/bone goods?
2) Can features that aren't planned to work for Dwarves specifically still be encoded, especially for modders and fiddlers?
3) Are there any plans for making cobaltite useful?
4) Are there plans for a thievery/stealth skill for stealth squads which you can use against your enemies to steal artifacts (like Kobolds & Goblins) as well as babystealing missions should you choose to go evil or modify your ethics to allow that?
5) Are there plans to fix the glitches related to fortress mode necromancers where the things they revive are still hostile to them?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937921#msg7937921
Dragonslayerelf (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7938163#msg7938163
1/2/4/5) handled by Shonai_Dweller.
3) Ha ha, yeah, it has kind of an unfortunate name for something we don't use specifically for that element. I'm not sure if cobaltite specifically was an ore used in dyes/glass coloration (cobalt has other ores), but that would be the sort of thing we'd do when we get to adding more diversity to those systems.
Quote from: Tomsod
A question about your general vision (not the short-time stuff):
Many stories and games (both video and PnP) implicitly involve some level of "dramatic convenience", e.g. a mayor's daughter gets kidnapped just as your party is visiting the town, or you stay at a tavern and just happen to overhear a villainous plan, or the protagonist randomly finds a magic McGuffin ring in a river. What is your opinion on such things? Would you include an option for the game to behave that way (to nudge/induce interesting events) if you could? Is it even doable? The kidnapped daughter example above, for instance, would involve rewriting the near past, as the game can't predict which town will you visit next, and the kidnapping has to happen in advance.
I'm asking because in real life epic adventures are rare, and I fear a realistic medieval simulation may be a tad boring.
I remember you mentioning an option to stop worldgen just as something big is about to occur, but it's not quite the same thing as it fits the player to the world, not the other way around.
Another question, on the myth generator:
As there are going to be various race-creation myths, is a good old Darwinesque natural selection on the table? Either as a divine myth ("the mountain apes were our holy ancestors and diligent work made them into what we are now"), or as something scholars could discover (even contrary to preexisting myths)? Or is it not medieval enough?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937965#msg7937965
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937970#msg7937970
Yeah, I'm generally not in favor of, say, a 'director' feature for this project. The most I think I'll do/have done is add some delays generally when people go off to do things. So if a group of people is getting together to go off and rescue somebody, they might wait an extra day, even if that's a very bad idea, just to give you a chance to see more organization and get in on things. But that would also happen on the other side of the world from your character, just since it's easier to maintain that way. I think a counter-balance to life being boring, if you don't want it to be boring, is that the character's life is much more expendable than your own life (or the life of a real person in medieval times), so you should be more easily able to make things happen around you or take risky opportunities as we go, though we aren't far along there yet. In the end, we're trading a tightly scripted story for reactivity and emergence. And we have some other general measures at our disposal -- if the world does really end up boring, and the player desires, the overall temperature of the boiling pot can be increased somewhat. But it is a different sort of critter.
It wouldn't technically work with our 1400 year cutoff or whatever, but having more natural origin stories is in line with the low/no magic slider for myth generation. I assume at the lowest setting with a human-only no-magic invented-myths-only, we're stuck with a pretty scientific tale, though I haven't thought through what that means exactly; perhaps people just being as confused on the matter as they were in 1400. I have no idea if we could actually support, say, myths that tried to tie creatures together on evolutionary trees or anything like that, especially in a way that works in any meaningful way. We've toyed around with it in side projects, and it's quite doable in that context, but it's harder if we have to support all of the features of raw creature defs. Somewhat like the centaur/half-elf/etc. etc. problems.
Quote from: George_Chickens
Are there any features you once considered implementing, but now view as impossible to add due to time constraints?
Will there be a possibility for the player, as an adventurer, to join in on already existing plots?
I'm sure there are such features... but we still have a lot of time left, and stuff like the map rewrite are still major refactors, so I'm not sure I'm thinking in these terms yet. There are large families of things I just have let drop off, like animal sounds (capybara only? that is odd), which become harder to get back to.
Adv joining plots is still an open question (compared to adv being a main villain or hunting villains, which will go in.) There's more infrastructure etc. in terms of conversation/interface required to put you in the middle of things, especially as it relates to you actually interfacing with plot elements (like embezzlement, which we want to keep as abstract as possible for now.)
Quote from: Button
So if I recall correctly, this villain update was originally intended to be the last update before a Long Wait. Given how much it's ballooned, are you still planning to start the Long Wait as soon as it's finished? Or are you considering this its own Long Wait that you'll be doing rapid-fire bugfixes after?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7938322#msg7938322
So there's the whole Steam thing to fit in here now, ha ha. But the plan is still the same here, and Shonai_Dweller has it right. We'll be fixing bugs for a time after the villain release, until it's stable, and this usually involves other bug fixes. Then we'll work on the Steam release for however long that takes. Obviously the Steam launch is an unknown in terms of how much maintenance will need to happen and then be ongoing there, especially with the very first release. Once the dust settles, we'll need to decide on how many of the pre-myth features on the dev page we want to do; there's enough intervening excitement now that I really have no idea what we'll think at that time. Then the Big Wait begins, with some ability to patch up bugs as they come up, so we don't get in another weapon trap crash situation.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Will you ever make the myth generator you showed off at GDC in 2016 downloadable? I would quite enjoy playing with it and modding it and stuff. I am a game dev myself so it would be cool to just read through a few of the creation myths (without having to read only screenshots) just have a little text blurb that says, "THIS DOES NOT REPRESENT THE FINAL MYTH GENERATOR AT ALL!" In bold next to the link to stave off any untoured expectations or some such.
If you dont want to i get it, maybe just share a couple more screenshots then?
Maybe explain a bit of how it works,
I understand its agent based and turn based correct?
Will the final one work the same?
If its agent based and turn based, Would the player ever be allowed to pop into one of the gods during creation to take their "turns" for them, as that is a "role" people would want to play, that would be a fun mini game. Probably a messy interface though.
Witty: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7938343#msg7938343
I think agent-based and turn-based makes it seem more 'fair' than it currently is. There are a few timers and priorities and importance metrics that are also used, so the actors aren't in any kind of fair competition for time/actions or whatever -- there's not enough matter there for it to play as a 'game', not the same way we can do it in world-gen. Sometimes the cosmic egg just feels like it has been sitting around to long, and an event is forced. It's preferable to do this as little as possible, since any metric or forcing makes the stories feel more samey, and I suspect the first real pass will have enough matter to be more satisfying here.
I don't have any fundamental objections to a myth-play mode, though it's not the focus for the first time through. I'm not sure it'll be at a point where it's truly interesting to play initially, though I suppose even clicking on the set of verbs and objects etc. might be kind of neat, or choosing which concepts to emphasize during a creation, etc. It would be kind of funny to play in a world over a sequence of forts/etc. and always know that you were personally responsible for one of the threads of creation, especially if it comes up somehow.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Do you plan to ever give dungeons/sewers/catacombs proper animal populations/incursions? It would be cool to fight the giant rats in the sewer/basement (prolific fantasy trope)
Priest: “yeah so the giant rats built a nest in the catacombs, could you clear it out for us”
All thats really in dungeons/catacombs right now is some criminals, sometimes,and ultra rarely some kobolds and even more ultra rarely other random historical monsters that have moved in, rarely some animal men, who half the time don't even initiate the combat. And the occasional tomb with a mummy.
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7938542#msg7938542
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7938548#msg7938548
We were having difficulties keeping people separated from natural populations, if I recollect. Animals need to be a little more chill, outcasts need to be a little more careful, spaces need to be better defined, etc. It's silly when a giant brawl breaks out whenever you happen to load the map. At some point we can hopefully manage this in a way that doesn't involve a massive violent depopulation when you visit.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Do you recall what inspired some of the cavern critters in the next_underground file? Like where did you get the idea for green devourers, voracious cave crawlers, or molemarians? What even is a draltha?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939190#msg7939190
Zach and I had a paper notepad and just took turns drawing a bunch of pictures. Everything in next_underground came from that one session. We selected our favorites (or really, most of them) and discussed what names we'd use and what properties they might have afterward. But the initial images were all just brain mush - so I suspect PlumpHelmetMan is correct, though you have to allow for other childhood image-builders like Fantastic Planet, Gandahar, Wizards, etc. A hungry head could pop up in any of those; creeping eyes and maneras and rutherers and dralthas and moghoppers and all that are just part of the same stew, with various mental cutting and pasting and amalgamation. Could certainly accept otyughs and carrion crawlers as antecedents for green devourers and carrion crawlers. We even had a largish rubbery neo-otyugh toy as children (ha ha, this site says the LJN AD&D Bendies subseries from 1984, that looks right. We had the carrion crawler too! And the roper. But not the grell or the chimera or the hydra, I think.)
Molemarians, on the other hand, are just an amplification of the naked mole dog, which is more of an animal-people style obsession with the various critters of earth. Like, what if a naked mole rat were also a centaur, but still more mole rat than human? The important questions. Armok 1 even had mole dogs I think. We visit them at the zoo, or did. I don't remember if they are still there.
Quote from: Dragonslayerelf
Are there any plans for us to be able to play races other than dwarves in fort mode, such as a fully fleshed out structure for goblins, humans, etc?
Are there any plans to allow us to optionally manually control raids/pillages/invasions and be transported to the battlefield instead of only seeing a report after-the-fact?
Are there any plans to make roads actually traversed? I was thinking of making a fort on the roads and halting anyone passing by, but no one ever came unless they were specifically coming to my fort.
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939331#msg7939331
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939417#msg7939417
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939478#msg7939478
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939485#msg7939485
Quote from: therahedwig
Will there still be a sort of 'Wizard tower' mode for wizards(as per old dev notes), or will our interaction with wizards be primarily adventure mode shenanigans with occasionally a wizard histfig messing things up in fortmode? Or is everything just gonna melt together and we'll see prison-colony-on-a-magical-mountain-run-by-wizards-that-are-an-offshoot-of-a-dwarven-civ-and-they-are-also-a-mercenary-band-mode?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939498#msg7939498
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7941793#msg7941793
With the villain stuff, yeah, doing a wizard mode in a sense just got a lot more likely than we were originally planning (where the focus for adv mode was being a wizard's agent instead.) There is a sort of tension between fort-mode-wizard-mode and adv-mode-wizard-mode; they are both equally valid ways of thinking about it, depending on what you want to do and the time scale you want to deal with. I don't have specific plans in the first pass to try any true mode hybridization, but it feels like we're starting to orbit that kind of thing.
Quote
Quote from: EternalCaveDragonWith the expansion to relationships between historical figures that's been discussed for this pass, are there any plans to do the same (in the background of course) for player adventurers? I remember reading somewhere that currently adventurers don't have any romantic/sexual orientation which results in them not doing things like taking lovers or getting married and having children. The fact they will stay with their previous traveling companions where they retired is pretty nice. But for a player like myself, where being able to get an adventurer to retirement is something of a rarity, it'd be kind of nice to know my former adventurer became more of a part of the world aside from whatever accomplishments they achieved after I take my focus away from them.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerIs there anything you've hard-coded into retired adventurers to prevent them from certain activities (besides relationships which I think you've mentioned before). So things like joining merc bands, becoming a goblin poet master's apprentice, etc?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939502#msg7939502
EternalCaveDragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939507#msg7939507
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939648#msg7939648
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939657#msg7939657
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7939727#msg7939727
I haven't changed the way the romance stuff works yet - as stated in the replies, we want to add some more support first.
Otherwise, I don't recall any additional flags or restrictions, and it's certainly not the intent. It wouldn't surprise me if the way they are incorporated into their chosen retirement community stops them from doing something or another, but that would just be an entity-membership-type bug, similar to the ones we had with their constructed sites/entities. As far as I know, they can do stuff; what I don't recall is if they are retired with a 'heroic' profession or if it just considers them, say, peasants. That would influence their post-play choices; it should probably be a decision made by the player when they choose to retire.
Quote from: Dwarf_guy
1: Will magic users be able to effect the geography of the world?
2: Will magic users be able to play with physics in any way? As in gravity say?
3: If so, (after boats are implemented I would assume) would fortresses in the middle of the ocean be possible? If able, a magician could part the ocean for long enough to build the framework, for example.
4: Also if so, would floating fortresses be possible in any form?
5: In adventure mode, will flying ships be implemented in anyway, or even be possible? I just really want to descend on an unsuspecting town from the sky to raid and pillage.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7940370#msg7940370
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7940395#msg7940395
I'm satisfied with this pair of responses. We're planning to get to some of this, even on the first pass, though clearly we've been talking about stuff like even mundane boats as a later feature, not a magic release feature, and we'd like to do it all by around the time boats are done.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So...snatching is now officially a villaneous behaviour. And player adventurers can indulge villaneous behaviour themselves...does this mean our long-held dreams of playing a proper band of goblin snatchers is now possible?
I haven't gotten to adventure mode yet, but, yeah, I'd have to explicitly not support it at this point. The only way that would come up is if I have trouble with, say, the delivery of the prisoner to your location, or something.
Quote from: ArtemiusTheHuman
I have some questions/suggestions for Fortress Mode:
1) More suggestion, than question. Wild animal people and some creatures like trolls, gorlaks and troglodits [CAN_LEARN]. How about possibility to train them, when they encaged, making them a citisens of your fortress? They are almost useless now, but can be very useful for creating of multinational fortresses.
2) About religions. Will there be a possibility for dwarfs (or others) in your fortress to found a new religion? Maybe as a very rare happening? Or this only world-creational option?
3) Can religions spread with books? How about optional holy bibles for some of them?))
4) About mecenaries. Can they recruit citizens of your fortress for their band? Maybe, unhappy citisens will be willing to leave fortress and join such bands, and they will file a petition, denying which will cause even more bad thoughts?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7942071#msg7942071
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7942097#msg7942097
Dragonslayerelf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7945395#msg7945395
Ha ha, yeah, suggestions are best in the suggestions forum. I read stuff there.
Quote from: squamous
Will the addition of a steam-supported graphics pack negatively affect future feature additions? Regarding them, an example you used was worm people living in the intestines of a world-monster for whom being dragged into lakes of bile by ghosts was a constant mortal threat. It seems unlikely that this kind of procedural possibility could be accounted for even with a whole professional team of graphics artists. I worry that features like this that don't seem to be able to reasonably be integrated into the official steam version are more likely to hit the cutting room floor than to be available in the free version only or some other compromise, but I would like to hear the official stance on it. How exactly will the graphics pack work with the level of procedural generation DF will eventually support without compromising the original vision, if it is even possible? It seems like a pretty big challenge.
If we just have to color a stone floor pinkish and call it good for a time, that's fine with me. Stuff like recolored spatter is already supported to some extent, and doing color-based liquids is reasonable simple (supporting random flowing liquids in the first place is the hard part!) But if we get really out there, I think people will be cool with the weirder edge-case stuff having a rough look for a time. At the same time, I've found that our artists are quite self-sufficient and would just need a bit of guidance in terms of what I'm working on to do something like give us a few fleshy floor pictures, and of course, stuff like animal people are already a big part of the game. We're working on some strategies for e.g. forgotten beasts, and procedural humanoids are roughly the same problem. So I wouldn't worry about this just yet. When we're in the thick of it, further down the line, doing all sorts of random magic stuff during the Big Wait, I'll see if I start feeling any of these pressures, but I feel good about it now. In terms of integrating graphics with mods/packs/txt files etc., we're still working that out, but the thorniest issues are going to need to be worked out for the first Steam release - subsequent stuff shouldn't be so hard, at least once we solve the forgotten beast problem (which is a core procedural system and will influence a lot of how magical graphics get coded/supported, I suspect, depending on how much FBs themselves get gutted.)
Quote from: Eric Blank
1) Just what will enhanced graphics mean?Graphics tiles for things like items, landscape components, shrubs/grasses, and map icons?From the patreon page thats exactly what it looks like, so theres my answer Will things, modded things, that dont have graphics support show up as normal ascii tiles?
2) Will the steam version get steam workshop support for mods?
3) Will the steam version technically be downloadable on the bay12games/dwarves page? Steam only lets you run the newest version of a game and will immediately overwrite your current game files, which id have to backup before updating, and if i want to play older versions of the steam game it would be absolutely necessary to have access to it there.
4) How different will the "classic" version end up being?
To be fair ive been playing for 12 years now, since i was 14, and this is new and scary and im not sure if i like it, but if you think its necessary for you, you know whats best.
Meph: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7942969#msg7942969
1) If the modder doesn't indicate graphics, then that would be the default, yeah, though adding in a line for the creature to point to some default included graphical tile might start to become a practice. We might also do this ourselves, to prevent ascii from being used if the Steam graphics are on. I'm not sure what other projects do for mods that simply don't provide graphics - I suppose it depends a lot on the game.
2) Yeah, as Meph said, this is the plan.
3) I am not 100% to what extent other games support old versions etc. - I know we are going to have the ascii version available as a branch, and I'm not sure if they'd also let us put up old stable versions? I don't have the savvy to set up my own website that would gate the old steam versions properly. We are entering an era now where one would be purchased and one wouldn't be, so I can't set up free downloads of the graphical ones.
4) As Meph said, the classic version will be mechanically identical, and just not include the assets and specific steam stuff like achievements. It'll have all the same modding capabilities; I don't think Workshop interferes with that at all, is my understanding.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are whatever enhancements that are going into the graphics system to support these new tiles going to be folded back into "classic" or are classic users to make do with DFhack/TWBT (and crashing Adventurer...)?
I'm sure modders will find ways to make DF even better, but the classic and steam versions are both going to get a number of goodies, including a lot of what TWBT currently does. You'll be able to do all of the graphical stuff in classic in your mods, presuming you are ready to draw or otherwise grab your own assets; the current plan is to just continue using txt files as we are currently, though there might be some new syntax there to keep save file size down etc. etc. We'll be careful to structure this in a way that doesn't impact mod portability, etc., as best we can. For instance, a default Steam save should not copy all of the default assets to its own folder (as it does currently), to stop it from becoming giant - this also means supporting pointing at default assets, and giving modders a way to have their own graphics installed in a save-independent way, perhaps? Classic could just display in ascii and also yell at you if you don't have your save's mods' graphics installed (while still working); maybe smaller graphics mods could continue to piggyback along inside of saves, just to save some compat trouble. There are a number of things to consider, and we want it to work both in classic and in Workshop. There might be some sticky points. We'll see once we get out of villains!
Quote from: Immortal-D
If you don't mind me asking; the circumstances of the Steam launch are troubling. Do you ever go jogging, bike riding, etc.?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7943638#msg7943638
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7943645#msg7943645
Pillbo: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7948040#msg7948040
I'm not an athlete, but here's a small offering: https://twitter.com/theothertuklus/status/1112167287920877568
I should probably emphasize generally that bipolar has nothing to do with exercise, and exercising outside is probably worse for skin cancer, though I have no idea how all the bodily systems work together there, so maybe it's a wash. I'm eating better than I used to (though some of those early reports were also exaggerated.)
Quote from: Antares
Do you anticipate that non-Classic will have equivalents to the options found in init.txt and d_init.txt?
If so, would this extend to custom tilesets/graphics?
clinodev (generally, to all Steam questions): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7943735#msg7943735
Yeah, we're likely going to move quite a bit of those in-game (or at least support changing them in-game), as people won't be expecting to mess with txt files when they launch a game from Steam. (no reason that won't happen in classic too)
As for custom graphics, that depends on Workshop, I think. I don't know enough about how it works yet to be specific here.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
How will The Announcement affect DF development?
- In the near term: The writing of a new graphics engine will obviously take time, so
1a: Do you have a ballpark guess of how long it will take, i.e. days/weeks/months/seasons...?
1b: When do you plan to write the engine? My guess would be that you'd finish the villain release and a few essential bug fix releases and then do the engine, followed by bug fix releases of things found while the engine was produced. The dev page hasn't been updated to cover this yet (as of this writing).
1c: Are you adamant in doing it yourself rather than contracting competent community members for the task (especially if the 1a estimate is beyond "a few weeks", as I would expect it to be)?
- In the long term:
2. Do you intend to change the way you work as a result of this? I'm primarily aiming the question at how you deal with bugs during the rather long (semi) major development cycles, as a Long Wait with a growing pile of reported bugs and no bug fixes is likely to result in DF being labeled as abandonware by many. I expect a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth concerning bugs whatever you do due to the nature of DF and its development, but some outcomes are worse than others.
Edit: 1b and 2 have been answered below by quotes from other fora, and so have been de-Toadified color wise.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7943751#msg7943751
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7943778#msg7943778
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7943790#msg7943790
1a) Ha ha ha, my guesses have always suuuuuucked. Finishing villains? Well, we're already in negative months on that, but let's say with all that's going on, it took three more months, being flippant because who knows. Then we stabilize for a month. Then the true Steam work begins, and takes... X months? It'd be good to spend time on it, because every bit of accessibility work helps with our first impression here, but we also have to get it released. Aside from some issues with software rendering I've discussed with mifki and Tanya etc. and we are going to work out one way or another, I'm pretty confident on the basic rewrite (the trailer graphics are all in-engine and those rewrites all took ~a week). The artists are working now, can work while I finish villains, and then continue to work as I start in on the Steam stuff, so I don't expect any delays there. So the X months comes down a bit to whatever else we are going to do with menus and tutorials and that sort of thing. Even the beginning, how world gen makes a world and then spits you back to the main menu -- it needs to be more friendly from the first moments. And we're going to work on that for a time. Bugs of course are also in play here, especially bugs that relate to this purpose.
1c) We'll see! I can do everything but the core important bit of using more modern graphics stuff way down in the guts (the code that is already released with the linux version and will remain public.) The interfacing with all of the DF code, etc., is all a straightforward slog and doesn't seem to depend on the underlying architecture (between software rendering, vertex buffers, shaders, whatever.) mifki (and others?) have worked out a Windows DLL solution to one of our issues etc., though I'm not going to be able to be more specific here until I'm out of villains and in the weeds properly. As you say in your reply, there just isn't a good time to start on this (especially if health has a say!), so I have to take this approach where I finish the stuff I'm working on, and then get into the Steam stuff. So I'll have to be frustratingly vague for a bit, because I just don't have certain answers yet.
Post by: Toady One on April 01, 2019, 01:39:40 am
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Great news on the Steam thing. I hope this brings in lots of new players (and their money) for you!
As I read through Meph's threads explaining the tons of sprites that will make the graphical version of DF so interesting, it becomes obvious (as I think it did to you back with Armok I) that graphics can never show everything you want them too. That leaves them as highly detailed, colourful representations, which I guess people accept more so in 2D than 3D but to me is not much more useful than an ASCII character (but that's just me - whatever attracts new players is cool I guess).
So, and I suppose it might be too early to tell, but with all this new income, official graphical version, back up of tremendously cool people...do you feel any pressure to reconsider any features from the point of view of "will this work in the graphical version"?
Examples might be, say, the Half-Elf issue. If you attempt it, it's going to be a lot of work just for the coding. But for tilesets? Sprites for half, quarter, a little bit elves? Green half-goblins? Pale half-goblins with red eyes (two variations from three-toe's own stories). The scope of procgen critters post myth-gen? It's all going to be a headache for the graphics guys but it all seems so essential to making dwarf fortress what it is. (And I guess the reason I'll play the Steam version in ascii, statues of famous bards represented by statues of armoured dwarves just annoys me).
To clarify, I don't mean contractual pressure, but just on the level of consideration for Meph and Mayday's sanity.
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944210#msg7944210
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944239#msg7944239
As I stated for another question in the first post, I don't think it'll be an issue. I mean, ASCII was already hopelessly overloaded and confusing with some symbols, and that wasn't stopping me, ha ha ha. But once I get a little practice coordinating with artists, coming up with an ascii representation and coming up with a 2D representation aren't too different total time-wise, working in parallel. If (as your second paragraph suggests), it's more just about what looks good... well, that's a taste thing; I think a 2D artist will always be able to draw things that work for people that like that style, anyway. I'm in between worlds, since I grew up on both text and 2D games, so I'm really fine either way. And with classic, I'm going to continue to provide an ASCII answer to every graphical question. Though, really, at some point I should at least add one extra sheet (this is something we've all been talking about here for years on and off, of course, in various contexts.) It strikes me that this will be much easier now, in classic, with the new support. Though I suppose if that console mode is still in we'll always need a terrible overloaded solution too.
In terms of exact representation, I think there's some room in 2D to still not be representative, to not worry about the exact coloration or whatever of procedural critters, though it's not precisely the same latitude as a 'g' or whatever. Especially when certain 2D tiles become known to have whatever the procedural style ends up being, like the forgotten beasts, people will get in the habit of giving them a closer look to get more information, I expect, especially after they get gassed or flamed out the first time.
Quote from: Death Dragon
As far as I know, one thing you really appreciated about DF was that you didn't have any responsibility towards anyone and you could work on anything you want at any pace you want. Do you feel any sort of mental "consequences" due to putting the game up for sale? Do you feel differently now that you're going to have "customers"?
On Discord you said that most new graphics effects like the transparency feature etc have already been implemented into the game. For how long have you been working on these things exactly? Did you do them secretly at the side during the villain update?
Working with artists, working with a friend as a publisher, all of these things add to a feeling of responsibility, sure. I'm not sure I've wrapped my head around any difference with customers and how that'll work; the entire culture of Steam is a bit different, and that's just be something that'll take some or a lot of adaptation. But the exigent circumstances have spared me from feeling too odd about it. We gotta do what we gotta do. At the same time, the notion I've heard that, say, every single bug on the tracker needs to be fixed doesn't strike me as consonant with my experience with... basically any game I've purchased, ha ha ha. Still, we'll do what we can. Time to be a little less flip about UX.
The artists have been working for a long while, and it shows! For me, though, it was that one week in late February that I mentioned on the dev log at the time (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2019-02-28), and a bit after as the trailer took shape. At the end of the day, updating a simple 2D render with some extra context-sensitive layers etc. isn't super time-consuming - except for the technical part where it needs to be properly lightweight, which'll possibly see us move away from software rendering, as stated in post 1. There'll also be a somewhat lengthy slog where I have to, for instance, tie every item id and map tile id, etc. into the print routine and the graphical assets, etc., but that's just busywork with the occasional harder problem. Of course, I'm sure other stuff'll come up! But I have the support of a lot of people and we're going to make it work.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Just to confirm: With "in world gen" you just mean the initial world generation, right? Not the time passing after the world has been finalised?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944259#msg7944259
Yeah, that's right, not in post-world-gen play. It's correct that it's not too too hard to turn it on, but there are enough differences between the two modes of play that it isn't a matter of using the exact same function, so any inertia which was in play at the time of that release (just trying to get it out in a reasonable time, etc.) comes into the decision-making. I'm trying to be better about keeping everything synced, but I'm sure we'll see points here with villains where world-gen also has some extras. It's just hard to move every bit forward.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
First off, sorry if I offended with the "like a 1930s apartment block" remark, I was just trying to be witty :)
Second, wow, a graphical DF release, honestly didn't expect this in the near future and am (very pleasantly) surprised! The new graphics look really good!
Since audio is also in the works, thought I'd ask a question about it: are there any potential plans for the Steam release (or later) to have 'ambient sounds', e.g. water dripping/echos in caverns, generic forest sounds when in a woodland, crowd sounds when in a congregated area (such as a tavern), etc.?
Second, more related to the graphical features, I've noticed in the graphical previews that sentient critters in battle actually have differing equipment, armor and appearances - some dwarfs have swords, some maces, some crossbows, some spears, etc. This is another very exciting thing for me. If this will actually be a feature, how far will it go in differentiating sentient creatures by equipment/state? Will it
change their sprites based on:
1. Equipped equipment, and it's state?
2. Clothing, and it's state?
3. Physical appearance, such as bald dwarfs actually being bald, etc.?
4. Wounds, from generic bloodiness when wounded, to possibly even more specific wounds (e.g. decapitation being shown, though I am fully aware that this might be a bit too graphical/gory). Possibly bandages when wounds are healing, also.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944388#msg7944388
Hapchazzard (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944412#msg7944412
Ha ha, no problem on the apartment block thing, just wanted to stick up for my crappy sometimes-hexagonal roads a bit.
We haven't done any ambient sounds at this point, aside from some that come with the musical tracks that aren't specific to the location. We have ten 'stingers' currently for major announcements, and might expand on that and other new systems in the future, but we don't have specific plans yet.
Yeah, on the graphical features, it's an ongoing discussion as Shonai_Dweller says. We'll get to some of it now, and some perhaps later depending on how it all shakes out.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Now that there are people other than you looking at graphics, another at music and presumably someone thinking about achievements and stuff, how do you want the Suggestions to work from now on? Continue to throw everything into the Bay12 Suggestions forum and you'll pass on anything you think you want in your game? Or some other way to pass on Suggestions directly?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944874#msg7944874
Ha ha, there are already threads here I think where Mayday and Meph are taking suggestions and showing new artwork in progress etc. So I don't yet think we need any specific new pipeline which I organize. Once we're a bit further into the Steam work, it might be that something specifically arises regarding e.g. achievement structure, but for now, yeah, just throw them in suggestions and I'll fold that into whatever happens.
Quote from: Criperum
Will the steam version of the game have 3rd party utilities most people used to have like dfhack and dwarf therapist? I mean managing dwarfes and searching in most game windows provided by them is hard to overestimate. Or maybe the steam version will have the same functionality introduced?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944880#msg7944880
Criperum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944882#msg7944882
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944906#msg7944906
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944912#msg7944912
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7944938#msg7944938
Criperum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7945336#msg7945336
The utility writers tell me that generally this will be possible, that utilities can still work, but I'm not sure at all about how, say, Workshop would interact with that.
We were never planning to fold in the spreadsheet approach, since it's not the direction I want the game to take, but we've arrived at this point now before I could make the fundamental V-P-L labor changes I wanted to test out with e.g. guild etc. So we'll have to make do with certain additions; not the full spreadsheets, but other helpful matter concerning say unhappy dwarves or idle dwarves or 'why isn't my miner mining?!'. Still in the early stages of thinking this out. Something like a tutorial also quite possible; at a minimum something that gets you over the 'designation exists' hump, etc.
Quote from: Criperum
I undestand it might be too early to ask but as we know steam takes 30% of money for themselves and itch.io has a variable percentage. So will those fees be the same on both platforms? I'm just curious which one to choose to be sure more money will go to Adams brothers.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7945364#msg7945364
Criperum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7945369#msg7945369
We don't have anything set yet, but expect the platforms to be about the same. Feels weird not giving itch the same cut, since they seem cool (met Leif briefly at the Roguelike Celebration last year), though I'm sure they'd support us either way.
Quote from: dragonslayerelf
However, speaking of, are there any plans to release slavery & cannibalism with the villainy or maybe even the gods & myths update?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7945446#msg7945446
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7945457#msg7945457
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7945473#msg7945473
Yeah, agree that if we're talking about fort mode, that'd be more a proc race law/customs thing. In some sense, it's not actually possible for me to wrap my head around exactly what proc fort races are going to do to, say, 'embark scenarios'. We have our nice list of starts we want to support, like mining companies, religious retreats, prison colonies, etc. etc... but proc fort races will have some strange, strange things to say about that.
Quote from: Japa
Will the first villain release have any graphics changes? Or will all of them start after that.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7945566#msg7945566
Yep, as Shonai_Dweller quotes, trying to do a clean split between villains and Steam, to avoid confusion and do a proper gear-switching. It's already confusing enough that there's going to be a release before the Steam stuff comes out, but we've been working on it for a long while and don't want any potential stability issues there to impact the first Steam release.
Quote from: FrankVill
1- What is the projection of the future regarding procedural art forms? Do you plan to add more details or improve what already exists?
It is not that I find it insufficient, I am really amazed with the current result.
2- Assuming that the first question you answered that there will be improvements / new features ... in what arcs would you develop them? And what would be its relevance in the development of the game beyond creating unique cultures with their own personality (more than enough, in fact)?
3- Will it include art forms for painting or sculpture as well? I guess the important thing is what is shown, but it would also be interesting to know if the style of the painting is Renaissance or impressionist, although that is already a suggestion.
4- If I were a composer who used the rules of a procedural musical form, would I be free to create several themes respecting the rules or is it quite restrictive?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7946278#msg7946278
1- I had a lot of fun making them, and hope to return to similar matters at some point. We've done almost nothing with visual arts, architecture, etc., and the existing forms could also be extended greatly.
2- We've only defined a few arcs on the time table with clarity, those being Myth/Magic and Law/Property/Customs/Embarks. I imagine dance/music/etc. will be tied into magic, even on the first pass, however, I'm not sure that would involve any extensions to the forms themselves. Perhaps if there are underspecified portions where I need more information to do rituals correctly. Customs are related, but it's hard to say what will come up there.
3- Yeah, as suggested in my answer to 1, I absolutely want to get into this, though they're a weaker area of mine personally when compared to music or to a lesser extent poetry (I knew nothing about dance going in.) And for architecture, the community and friends have already been very kind in their piling of books upon me, heh.
4- PatrikLundell's reply is good here. I don't have problems with people writing music based on DF forms, if that was the question. If the question is about in-game composers and their latitude, some forms are much more restrictive than others, as I recollect, so it really depends.
Quote from: neblime
when you get to embarks/scenarios and such and forts having a purpose, will that tie in with current villian/hero/historical figure motivations and schemes? i.e. could a powerful noble establish a military fort with the express purpose of increasing his power? or a temple to increase his prestige or something?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7946278#msg7946278
As PatrikLundell says, it's a bit early to predict, but certainly the idea is not just to have a generic "scenario" but to tie you into the generated world in specific entity-geographic ways, and that often involves individuals.
Quote from: XXX_ANUBIS_XXX
Hey Tarn, any plans for implementing a justice/security system to go with Villains?
ATM, I can walk out with a towns entire warehouse and not be bothered by even a single concerned citizen. I'd imagine that under realistic circumstances, there would be a few guards on the warehouse, mayhaps with the ability to encourage them to turn a blind eye?
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7947495#msg7947495
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7948428#msg7948428
As Doorkeeper mentions, we'd like to do something here, there in the dev bullet points, just to make the investigatory part a little more interesting. I'm not sure how wide-ranging it can be at this point, though. The companies don't hire guards currently, for instance, and there are similar little quibbles all up and down the process which we can't tackle all at once.
Quote from: Pillbo
Tarn, I was wondering what your personal opinion is on some of the debates/ideas happening in the Steam suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173532.0) and tileset threads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0)?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7948311#msg7948311
Yeah, as Bumber says, we'll need to hit specific points.
Quote
Quote from: Beag1. How much do you think Dwarf Fortress will cost on steam?
2. With the switch from ascii to graphics will there be any graphics for what a creature is wearing? I ask this because it breaks my immersion a little to see a creature visually wearing one thing then when I check on them with the look command I find out they are wearing something else.
3. Will steam mods for Dwarf Fortress need to have graphics?
4. Will there be any indicator on the steam workshop for if mods are incompatible with each other or will we just need to test it out by running the game and seeing if it crashes?Quote from: therahedwigWhat kind of fallback mechanisms are you considering for situations in which unique graphics won't be possible, such as mods?
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7950675#msg7950675
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7950742#msg7950742
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7951091#msg7951091
The responses cover everything, I think. Shonai_Dweller's last reply has my thoughts on therahedwig's followup question as well. There will surely be times where using a specific mod will make it stick out since graphics weren't included etc., but that's a common enough issue with mods in games I've played; mods that pack in similar graphics will look nice with the Steam stuff, and their txt objects should also define their ascii characters for the ascii/classic version to use, since it's just one line and most objects just have it sitting there.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Lots has been said about the new graphics support you're adding, so:
Will the sound and music be completely moddable too? How will sound effects work? Are they defined for every action in the game, like a whole page of raws for editing as we like? Or as a tag we call from existing raws (which we could add to modded in reactions or combat attacks)?
Yes, all of it will just be out in the text. Now, what that means at first will likely be limited to, say, announcement sounds, seasonal music, and "you are dying" music, he he he. But any music/sound triggers we support will be out in some txt file that can be changed. If sound becomes more complicated over time (like, combat sounds, however that works with a siege of 300...), the triggers will still be added to the relevant creature, etc., or out in some supplemental file (as with the current creature graphics.)
As for the sound files themselves, that's up in the air in the same way as graphical files are. We want saves to be as lightweight as we can keep them, but we also want them to be as portable as possible. That almost involves case-by-case decisions on what you should pack in to a save, and what needs to be downloaded for it to have every file necessary. That might be something that's just set by the modder with some tag? Depends on how Workshop works too, etc.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
I've read through the thread on the new tile sets, and seen that it appears clothing will be reflected on the characters. I expect that will result in a more or less immediate demand for control over clothing in Fortress Mode in the form of:
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.
- A wider selection of dyes, especially with a wider color palette for the game itself.
Is this something you intend to address before the commercial version launches (e.g. in conjunction with military uniform UI overhaul), or something that would be addressed when (and if) the issue appears? It's not on my top priority list, but I suspect not dealing with it will have a negative impact on DF reception at launch.
The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7951355#msg7951355
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7951361#msg7951361
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7951369#msg7951369
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7951375#msg7951375
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7951453#msg7951453
etc.
Ha ha, yeah, as far as I know it's still under discussion. I'm also a few days behind due to all that's been going on. I can see certain customization and content rising up a bit as we go, if the game starts to feel a certain way or if it feels like a really great opportunity. Here, I agree overcoming a certain sense of sameiness at least is important, all the way back with your initial seven dwarves and then the first set of migrants; if sashes ends up handling that, cool, or if we end up having to work a bit more, we can do that. The dwarves do tend to dress similarly and use similar colors. Dunno how that was received/handled in, say, StoneSense.
Quote from: Criperum
As you said that you are goingto fix some military issues between vilians and the Big Wait. Is problem with armor and uniforms one of those planned fixes?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7951946#msg7951946
It's not specifically related, but as Shonai_Dweller says, we'll be in the area. Additionally, we're going to fix some things before the Steam release, especially stuff likely to be irritating to large numbers of people starting out.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
A long while yet, but when you come to the society/politics development stage, do you see (presumably generated) cultural/political/military systems that follow very different paths to the "medieval Europe" vibe we get at the moment? I know Mythgen will make weird and wonderful non-Tolkieny worlds possible, but specifically for culture & politics. Do you see yourself focussing mainly on elements of "earth" cultures for inspiration or will there be chances of really out-there pure fantasy political systems (either based on literature, your own imagination, or whatever)?
Yeah, definitely. I have Chinese and Indian law codes on top of western ones which I've read through in preparation for my law frameworks, and my customs material is from all over the world (though I haven't yet settled on sources there, and some of mine are old), and that'll help a lot I'm sure, when it comes time to have a broad real-world framework from which to go off into fantasy land. For the out-there stuff, we hope for it, especially when it comes to the non-humans (since they aren't human), and to some additional extent the non-dwarves (since the dwarves have to hold on to something a bit like humanity for playability/relatability purposes). At the same time, it's possible to overdo this, so we'll have to be subject to the simulation outcomes -- real-world stuff guides us back to playability when stuff goes off the rails, so it's kind of a base to move out from as well. Still, presumably the law/customs/status/new-entity code will allow a great deal of X -> Y random crap to the extent we let it, and part of the point is to have a bit of fun. Of course, getting beyond the "out-there" systems covered by human culture is harder than it seems, as you can find a custom or smaller group system that covers just about anything. People more familiar with medieval Europe will likely think we're making some of the things up that just come straight out of the reading.
Post by: Inarius on April 01, 2019, 02:00:51 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 01, 2019, 02:21:40 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 01, 2019, 03:26:50 am
Look forward to forgetting all this Steam stuff for a while and getting back to reading about Villains updates. :)
Post by: Criperum on April 01, 2019, 04:36:27 am
I was actually waiting for something like "Ha! It was a long standing 1 April joke!" but it didn't happen.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 01, 2019, 07:38:24 am
Quote
I suppose even clicking on the set of verbs and objects etc. might be kind of neat, or choosing which concepts to emphasize during a creation, etc. It would be kind of funny to play in a world over a sequence of forts/etc. and always know that you were personally responsible for one of the threads of creation, especially if it comes up somehow.Sounds great fun. This please.
Post by: zakarum on April 02, 2019, 03:26:20 am
Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community?
I will give an example: I own a few games on GoG that have steam workshop integration. In a lot of cases the modders don't provide a external link to the mod which leaves me in the awkward situation of needing to pirate mods for a game I own. There's even the possibility that external downloaders such as steamworkshop downloader do not work. If you think that's a rare problem, there's even sites such as <removed> that exist solely for the purpose of pirating mods because some of us own the games on GoG or other platforms (examples of this are Stellaris, Project Zomboid, Starbound, Kenshi, Surviving Mars, among others).
I understand your decision to opt for Steam Workshop integration but you are running the risk of making your consumers in Itch.io into second-class consumers. I also know you have no responsibility in regards to where modders choose to upload their mods, but you can create the walled garden that allows it to happen in the first place. So what's your take on this?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 02, 2019, 04:19:53 am
Thank you for the answers Toady.Someone asked this in Reddit. The answer is, as I recall, basically, it's the modder's responsibility (better search for the exact quote). If they choose not to share their mod with everyone there's not much anyone can do about it
Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community?
I will give an example: I own a few games on GoG that have steam workshop integration. In a lot of cases the modders don't provide a external link to the mod which leaves me in the awkward situation of needing to pirate mods for a game I own. There's even the possibility that external downloaders such as steamworkshop downloader do not work. If you think that's a rare problem, there's even sites such as <removed> that exist solely for the purpose of pirating mods because some of us own the games on GoG or other platforms (examples of this are Stellaris, Project Zomboid, Starbound, Kenshi, Surviving Mars, among others).
I understand your decision to opt for Steam Workshop integration but you are running the risk of making your consumers in Itch.io into second-class consumers. I also know you have no responsibility in regards to where modders choose to upload their mods, but you can create the walled garden that allows it to happen in the first place. So what's your take on this?
As a community, we should encourage anyone uploading interesting mods solely to Steam to share with the rest of the players. It's the same game, all mods are compatible, so there's really no reason it shouldn't be shared at DFFD too. Unless the aim is to deliberately not share. And then, again, not Toady's fault.
The Crusader Kings community seems to have managed this for several years, with all major mods available on the forum.
Post by: zakarum on April 02, 2019, 06:49:29 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 02, 2019, 07:11:46 am
Though to be fair, Crusader Kings 2 is a steam exclusive game. It needs Steam and it's not available without it anywhere else. It would be very unlikely that it shared this problem. As I said, it's not really the developer's responsibility for what people choose to do, but it's the developers responsibility that this was enabled as Workshop integration is his choice.It used to be on GOG. But all the mods are shared on the forum, so it didn't become a problem. And it's still the case that the mods are all shared on the forum on the developer's site, not just Steam.
We already have a healthy modding community with mods that have been kept up to date for years and years. Yes, Meph and Taffer and all the long-term modders might all get together one drunken night and say "lets screw the community, that would be funny". But it's not really likely, is it? It's completely possible as a community to manage that mods are shared. Besides Steam Workshop is one of the main selling points. The point is to sell the game and make money, remember? Not enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.
So, anyway, how much is this actually a problem? Mods not on Steam will all work on the Steam version, but can it be done the other way around? Are mods all kept in a cloud someplace away from the game files? I don't know how it works.
Oh, and I guess, taking this over to the Steam thread might be a good idea.
Post by: zakarum on April 02, 2019, 07:17:16 am
Quote
Not enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.So you expect the modding scene to all take off to Steam since it would be a shoot in the foot to leave it in the forums? Interesting.
Regardless, I'm not saying it is a problem, I'm raising it as a potential problem that might split the community. It's in the realm of possibility and it happened before.
The main selling point as far as I understood was the graphics, sound and accessibility. If the whole point was workshop access it would become a Steam exclusive. I just raised the question, to Toady, if he considered that possibility and how much of a problem it would be if it happened. If he wants Workshop so bad then it could be a Steam-exclusive game, sure, it's his game. What I raised is the potential for the creation of second-class consumers, even though all consumers should be treated the same. With this new direction there's also new responsibilities to people and people who buy in Itch.io shouldn't be expected to be treated as a second-class consumer.
I'm not interest in yours or anyone else opinion on this, just his. So I disagree that it belongs in the "steam thread".
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 02, 2019, 07:22:29 am
Crusader Kings 2 was never on GOG. None of the new generation Paradox games were except Stellaris and EU:Rome recently. It used to be on Gamersgate and that was before workshop integration. With it the GG version was discontinued. That's why that problem never happened with Crusader Kings 2: Workshop killed the alternative versions.And he answered it already in the Reddit Q&A. As I said.QuoteNot enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.So you expect the modding scene to all take off to Steam since it would be a shoot in the foot to leave it in the forums? Interesting.
Regardless, I'm not saying it is a problem, I'm raising it as a potential problem that might split the community. It's in the realm of possibility and it happened before.
The main selling point as far as I understood was the graphics, sound and accessibility. If the whole point was workshop access it would become a Steam exclusive. I just raised the question, to Toady, if he considered that possibility and how much of a problem it would be if it happened. I'm not interest in yours or anyone else opinion on this, just his.
(Incidentally, no, that's not what I said at all).
--edit
15 seconds of Google-fu later...
Do you think the modders on the workshop will take resposibility in keeping mods accessible to people on the free/itch.io version? I know for a fact that some people really dislike steam so I wouldn't like to think that accessibility would have some unexpected drawbacks (say, people only posting on steam, making steam the only viable way of playing modded DF).
TarnAdams
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18 days ago
The thing about responsibility is that it's an individual thing if you don't try to enforce it, I guess, so really, it's up to the modders. We'll have an open format. A mod that works in one place will work in another in principle, though Workshop is meant I think to streamline the installation process. But we have a huge modding forum over at Bay 12 that isn't going anywhere, so if somebody has, say a creatures.txt mod that they post there, it can be used anywhere, even if they also put it on Workshop. My txt files are all explicitly public domain -- I didn't gpl them or anything, so if somebody restricts their mod, that's their own thing. If somebody wants to post it everywhere, that's great, and of course it is nice when people share! If this does somehow lead to a concentration of mods on Steam, I'm not sure how to avoid that. But DF itself is always going to have a free version, and people that are into that will mod with that in mind.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 02, 2019, 07:39:12 am
Post by: zakarum on April 02, 2019, 08:02:54 am
The Reddit question is asking if he thinks that modders in steam will provide non-walled version of their mods.
I'm asking if he has given any thought and his opinions on the community splitting potential of his decision of doing Workshop and the possibility of that turn other consumers in second class consumers
One is about modders and their own choices.The other is about Toady and his choice and responsibilities. How on earth does one answer the other and in what language are they the same?
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 02, 2019, 08:27:37 am
I have little knowledge of how the Steam Workshop works, but if there were guidelines that actively encouraged making anything posted there available for access to people having other versions of the game, and guides on how to do that, it would probably help (I have no idea how hard Valve tries to block competition out, or what visible means they'll use for that purpose, though).
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on April 02, 2019, 01:33:46 pm
I'm asking if he has given any thought and his opinions on the community splitting potential of his decision of doing Workshop and the possibility of that turn other consumers in second class consumers
One is about modders and their own choices.The other is about Toady and his choice and responsibilities. How on earth does one answer the other and in what language are they the same?
Yes, multiple fora will result in a split of the modding scene to a greater or lesser extent. I'm sure there are going to be people who'll only know about the Steam workshop and post there exclusively, as well as many who'd only know to look there. I, for one, am not going to post anything there (I don't think you could if you haven't bought this specific game there), but provide it over here, so anyone who'd want to use it would have to grab it here.
I have little knowledge of how the Steam Workshop works, but if there were guidelines that actively encouraged making anything posted there available for access to people having other versions of the game, and guides on how to do that, it would probably help (I have no idea how hard Valve tries to block competition out, or what visible means they'll use for that purpose, though).
As a dabbler in the use of Steam Workshop as a platform for modding, no, the files aren't kept separate until needed, at least in the case of some games. Some will in fact appear on your computer itself, though they may require a bit of digging to find the mod you want due to how the files are named by the Workshop compared to a separate upload. I remember hearing that somewhere but I'm not sure as to the validity of that statement across different games.
Anyway, provided the mod's file structure is compatible between versions of the game which it seems will be the case judging by quotes, then there really shouldn't be any difference between posting to the Workshop or posting to DFFD. The game would read files from both/either the same way and Steam plays well with mods not from the Workshop in my personal experience. So mixing and matching mods regardless of upload location shouldn't matter too much. All depends on where the individual players want to look, which means it's the players' prerogative whether or not they access certain mods.
In conclusion, it really is up to the modders themselves and only them whether or not they post to one or the other or both. It's not the Adams' or Kitfox's responsibility to ensure mods exist on both platforms, regardless of whether or not certain members of the community believe they should. Plus, it's too early to make any predictions anyhow as to the impact since the game itself isn't out on Steam or itch yet so we don't know for sure how people will react.
Post by: zakarum on April 02, 2019, 03:31:49 pm
Quote
In conclusion, it really is up to the modders themselves and only them whether or not they post to one or the other or both.But that's not the question here now is it? I'm not even debating how the Workshop works - just the fact that being a walled garden that the developer chooses they can end up creating, with other people's choices, a walled garden that makes other consumers into second-class consumers.
Quote
But it's the modder's choice!I'd appreciate if people would stop trying to swerve the question in this direction. That's not what I asked. I appreciate the efforts to try and answer my question but so far I only got misinterpretation and some moving to another (albeit similar) topic.
Which leads to one of the problems that FotF has in recent times, in my opinion. As Toady enable more and more people to help him answering questions, a lot of time the people who usually reply - empowered by Toady using their replies - end up gate-keeping the thread and trying to interpret the word of Toady (or what he thinks) like this was theological discussion. And we go off-topic with that.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 02, 2019, 04:15:18 pm
Which leads to one of the problems that FotF has in recent times, in my opinion. As Toady enable more and more people to help him answering questions, a lot of time the people who usually reply - empowered by Toady using their replies - end up gate-keeping the thread and trying to interpret the word of Toady (or what he thinks) like this was theological discussion. And we go off-topic with that.
People have always been allowed to help answer questions, only difference is that he started linking to said answers too if he felt they answered the question, rather than just skipping the question (and noting the people who answered stuff at the top of the post). Not sure I agree with your view that there's any gatekeeping going on, I'd hope all proxy answers are born from simply wanting to help whoever asked something and/or make Toady's job easier (though as with anything on the internet the urge to want to be right can easily take hold), and no one is stopped from disagreeing with an answers validity (like you're doing now) or clarifying their question if they feel something was misunderstood . Not sure if any guidelines could be made that would make much of a difference, linking quotes is always better than trying to answer from memory of course (unless it's a yes/no or equally easy question, but probably even then), which wasn't really the case here though. Personally can't quite tell what isn't answered of your question with that quote either so trying to explain it further somehow would probably be a good idea, unless all this bickering has explained it enough for Toady to hopefully get the gist of it.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on April 02, 2019, 05:22:01 pm
But that's not the question here now is it? I'm not even debating how the Workshop works - just the fact that being a walled garden that the developer chooses they can end up creating, with other people's choices, a walled garden that makes other consumers into second-class consumers.
I think I know where my personal misunderstanding was. And again I find your argument fallacious. I was specifically stating what barriers there are from the Steam side, of which there are none, because I've seen said lack of barriers for myself. But I believe you're talking about barriers from outside the Workshop. Now here's why I find your argument fallacious: assumption for the worse. You're assuming that every single mod creator on the Workshop will only post to the Workshop. You're also assuming every single mod on the Workshop will be desirable by the wider community, the appeal of a mod is subjective. Not every mod/utility for DF that's out there gets downloaded by the whole community. Not everyone uses the Lazy Newb Pack or DFHack. Plus, if someone ends up being interested in a certain mod that's available only on the Workshop at that time, they in all probability either downloaded the Steam version of DF already or they will ask the creator if they could post it to DFFD. Which with enough demand some might actually do. Not every modder of the Steam version will be aware of DFFD at first, that's an impossible ask due to the new players (and thus modders) the Steam release will attract.
And above all, it all lies with the modders themselves how available they make their mods. I highly doubt it is intentional to create any barriers to access to mods, and to lay responsibility for that at the feet of the developer is a bit of a reach if you ask me since they have no control over the modding community's choices. And to say anyone who doesn't download the Steam version will become a "second-class consumer" is just as fallacious because it's based on the assumptions above. Plus it comes off as trying to start a fight before the Steam release has even happened.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 02, 2019, 05:36:00 pm
That Toady is just one guy and is reading the same text as us means he probably will too, but whatever. Forget about it for a month. Maybe discuss Steam and mods and potential Workshop issues with people interested in discussing Steam and mods and Workshop issues over at the Steam thread.
Do you think the updates for Steam release will add enough changes that it will break saves like Mythgen probably will? Maybe that's a good thing for working without restrictions?
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 03, 2019, 01:59:44 am
- Toady has described the reason for why DF spreads to the commercial route. Some people dislike that, but it's Toady's decision to make.
- Due to its prominence, it's hard (but not impossible) to bypass Steam when trying to attract sales. Regardless, that decision has already been made.
- It would be plain stupid NOT to enable Steam Workshop for a game that has moddable raws as a core feature.
- It's an unfortunate effect of the above that some of what end up in the Workshop may end up inside the Steam gated community wall. That, however, is not a valid reason for bypassing Steam Workshop.
- I assume it falls on Kitfox to moderate the Steam Workshop, and hopefully do so in a manner that promotes making whatever is produced over there available to all DF users. They should probably point to Bay12 as the core scene, or new players are likely to miss the best stuff.
- I'd expect Bay12 to remain the center of the DF scene as the main (only?) source of DFHack, Dwarf Therapist, Legends Viewer, etc. tools, and probably the main source for mods.
Post by: zakarum on April 03, 2019, 07:07:44 am
And again I find your argument fallacious.
But I'm not making an argument am I? I'm making a question. You are making an argument because you don't agree with my question (or you seem to be reading more into it) - which in itself is absurd.
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I was specifically stating what barriers there are from the Steam side, of which there are none, because I've seen said lack of barriers for myself.Except for, you know, the whole walled garden barrier, there's none, sure.
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You're assuming that every single mod creator on the Workshop will only post to the Workshop.No, I'm not. I'm asking Toady for his opinion on his decision to use the Workshop and the potential for a split in the mod community and the subsequent creation of second-class consumers. That might not happen at all - but it's a risk he is taking in favor of potential consumers in Steam over other platforms. Read my question again:
Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community?
creating here is in the future. The question itself doesn't state it will happen, it asks if he's worried it will happen or if he thought about it at all when he made his decision.
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And above all, it all lies with the modders themselves how available they make their mods. I highly doubt it is intentional to create any barriers to access to mods, and to lay responsibility for that at the feet of the developer is a bit of a reach if you ask me since they have no control over the modding community's choices.Again, I'm not asking about the modding community choices. I am asking about his choices. The whole purpose of the Workshop was to create a walled garden that made more attractive for people to use Steam over other platforms. It's not the modding community choice to put Workshop in a game - it's the developer's choice. A combination of factors might end up creating a walled garden, or that might not happen at all, but the one who enables it all is the one who decides that the walled garden can exist in the first place.
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And to say anyone who doesn't download the Steam version will become a "second-class consumer" is just as fallacious because it's based on the assumptions above. Plus it comes off as trying to start a fight before the Steam release has even happened.I'm not saying it will happen, I'm saying it can happen and asked him for his thoughts on it and asked if he thought about it at all. Am I speaking English here because I'm often repeating this to seemingly no avail.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 03, 2019, 07:09:14 am
With the updates to the UI, are you going to take a stab at consolidating rooms, workshops, stockpiles and zones? It occurs to me that these are all "places where a certain activity is done" but they all have different menus and processes to do it, and this is the source of more confusion than having to learn which key does what.
Is there any chance that the Big Wait might be chopped into smaller waits? I was imagining that the map rewrite could accompany myths/legends (as pre-w.g fluff) before the mechanics of magic are added.
How far has the economy can been kicked down the road? Do you think that it will be more or less of a headache than organising a real economy?
Will the introduction of magic accompany a filling out of crafting options in adventurer mode? I ask because it occurred to me that the use of magical reagants is a standard fantasy trope, and that that might require a better fleshed out crafting interface. Additionally, transmutation of one object into another is a fantasy staple and I suppose that's another sort of crafting.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 03, 2019, 07:16:49 am
I was reading a piece in PC Gamer about updates to the UI and it occurred to me;At the risk of being accused of gatekeeping again (despite Toady actually answering questions every month for years and years despite other people's comments), the workshops will at some point be replaced by zones. But doing this, Toady has said, will need a save-breaking update (like The Big Wait). But, if Steam release is going to break saves anyhow, it could happen. On the other hand Meph is designing beautiful workshops for the official tileset right now, so it most likely won't happen yet. Some consolidation of stockpiles, zones and stuff would be nice to see in the meantime though.
With the updates to the UI, are you going to take a stab at consolidating rooms, workshops, stockpiles and zones? It occurs to me that these are all "places where a certain activity is done" but they all have different menus and processes to do it, and this is the source of more confusion than having to learn which key does what.
Is there any chance that the Big Wait might be chopped into smaller waits? I was imagining that the map rewrite could accompany myths/legends (as pre-w.g fluff) before the mechanics of magic are added.
How far has the economy can been kicked down the road? Do you think that it will be more or less of a headache than organising a real economy?
Will the introduction of magic accompany a filling out of crafting options in adventurer mode? I ask because it occurred to me that the use of magical reagants is a standard fantasy trope, and that that might require a better fleshed out crafting interface. Additionally, transmutation of one object into another is a fantasy staple and I suppose that's another sort of crafting.
Post by: therahedwig on April 03, 2019, 07:27:34 am
I was reading a piece in PC Gamer about updates to the UI and it occurred to me;That'd be pretty big. I doubt it would get in because it is so big, but it'd be pretty cool if it did :D
With the updates to the UI, are you going to take a stab at consolidating rooms, workshops, stockpiles and zones? It occurs to me that these are all "places where a certain activity is done" but they all have different menus and processes to do it, and this is the source of more confusion than having to learn which key does what.
Though, T/Q/K consolidation would be a bit of a help too :3
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Is there any chance that the Big Wait might be chopped into smaller waits? I was imagining that the map rewrite could accompany myths/legends (as pre-w.g fluff) before the mechanics of magic are added.Previous answers indicate its very likely. But, the thing is that even the simplest stuff, that is, doing the map rewrite, polishing the mythgen, integrating the mythgen, making everything in worldgen respect the mythgen, will still take pretty long.
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How far has the economy can been kicked down the road? Do you think that it will be more or less of a headache than organising a real economy?Faaaar. Right now it seems the economy is much like magic that there's basically little bits and pieces being added onto each release that will end up in a cool economy system to interact with using villains, thieves and traders. So, like, this release has a notion of worldgen gambling and accounts for the different entities so villains have pretty mild stuff to do beyond 'grab power', but the next big push should be after all the magic stuff with the law and customs. The entities will be reworked then, and then hopefully made better about understanding what resources are available to them as well as made smart enough to have economic desires, so they can want to create mines and logging villages instead of only farming villages.
The biggest push is expected to be around the same time as boats, because then there's a point to building boats in universe. That's about 3 big waits away :)
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Will the introduction of magic accompany a filling out of crafting options in adventurer mode? I ask because it occurred to me that the use of magical reagants is a standard fantasy trope, and that that might require a better fleshed out crafting interface. Additionally, transmutation of one object into another is a fantasy staple and I suppose that's another sort of crafting.I have no idea about this last one :)
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 03, 2019, 07:45:04 am
I was reading a piece in PC Gamer about updates to the UI and it occurred to me;
With the updates to the UI, are you going to take a stab at consolidating rooms, workshops, stockpiles and zones? It occurs to me that these are all "places where a certain activity is done" but they all have different menus and processes to do it, and this is the source of more confusion than having to learn which key does what.
The workshop/zone question was sort of asked and answered in the kitfox discord (they had a kind of ama there too after the announcement) ^^
Quote from: Mishtal
Could you say a few words about whether (or not?) the accessibility improvements for the steam release will include any changes to things like workshops, zones, burrows, and the various selection methods?
E.g. Different ways of marking multiple tiles at once for various designation actions, workshops functioning different than zones / locations, that type of thing.Quote from: Tarnunifying all the workshop/zones/etc. was part of a larger project and might be a bit much, but doing different mousy rectangles and that sort of thing definitely in the mix. there will be an uncomfortable point where we have to decide just how much we can bite off in terms of wider rewrites, tradeoff between the delay and the first impression
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 03, 2019, 08:23:20 am
Ah. Yes. Then there was this lot from an article today (yesterday?) which doesn't cover the specific question, but does go into details about some of the UI updates we can expect (and why a tutorial is hard in a game where your miner might unexpectedly have no arms...). (Or perhaps that was what prompted your question in the first place, sorry).I was reading a piece in PC Gamer about updates to the UI and it occurred to me;
With the updates to the UI, are you going to take a stab at consolidating rooms, workshops, stockpiles and zones? It occurs to me that these are all "places where a certain activity is done" but they all have different menus and processes to do it, and this is the source of more confusion than having to learn which key does what.
The workshop/zone question was sort of asked and answered in the kitfox discord (they had a kind of ama there too after the announcement) ^^Quote from: MishtalCould you say a few words about whether (or not?) the accessibility improvements for the steam release will include any changes to things like workshops, zones, burrows, and the various selection methods?
E.g. Different ways of marking multiple tiles at once for various designation actions, workshops functioning different than zones / locations, that type of thing.Quote from: Tarnunifying all the workshop/zones/etc. was part of a larger project and might be a bit much, but doing different mousy rectangles and that sort of thing definitely in the mix. there will be an uncomfortable point where we have to decide just how much we can bite off in terms of wider rewrites, tradeoff between the delay and the first impression
https://www.pcgamer.com/tutorials-and-mouse-support-could-make-dwarf-fortress-on-steam-vastly-easier-to-play/
Post by: therahedwig on April 03, 2019, 08:31:38 am
It's going to be interesting, Threetoe sure has his work cut out for him.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 03, 2019, 04:52:57 pm
If you read Buttery's post, it is in fact what inspired their questions. :)Well, good to get the link out there. These PC Gamer interviews are coming in thick and fast. Here's another (although we know most of the content of this one already).
It's going to be interesting, Threetoe sure has his work cut out for him.
https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/dwarf-fortresss-next-big-update-will-let-you-play-its-adventure-mode-with-a-proper-rpg-party/
Post by: Miuramir on April 04, 2019, 02:56:37 am
But I'm not making an argument am I? I'm making a question.
Whether you are aware of it or not, you are making a number of assumptions, some of which come off as argumentative and/or coming from a potentially biased standpoint. That said, the most useful thing is to look at what has actually happened with various similar games.
Some instructive case examples to be looked at are KSP (Kerbal Space Program) and Stellaris.
KSP is similar in that it was a very small division of a small company, that self-published for a number of years while describing their game as alpha / beta / early access, while in practice a large number of people found it already enjoyable and were treating it more as a released game. As a highly customizable game that was on the borderline of games and simulators, they had mods focused on small tweaks, major rebuilds, user interface improvements allowing more specific control of the world's elements, and all sorts of graphical enhancements for those who thought the original devs were not focused enough on eye candy. They eventually launched on Steam, and various other online stores. (Side note: the console versions really are different games, and not discussed here.)
Originally, the main modding scene was focused on an external site run by users, with discussion split between the developer's own forums and the game's reddit (most important material appeared in both places). That site went defunct. A replacement site sprung up in short order, also user-run and external. At some point, the developer announced that their official mod site would be a commercial external gaming site. While some mods moved or copied there, it was regarded with general suspicion.
As time has gone on, more and more mods have been managed as github projects; some release only there, others copy to one or both other hosts. The developer exerts negligible control over mod publishing, and minimal control over mod discussion on their forums; for the most part this works out fine.
A user attempt at a mod loading / management framework has been around for a while, but many mod devs don't like it, as it has a reputation for dramatically increasing support headaches due to version issues; on the other hand, a significant number of very non-technical users seem to depend on it. (The number of people who play sim/games who are not able to do things like handle extracting zip files and putting things into a specific directory is always a surprise; the average user age is less than you think and their basic computer education isn't as good as you hope.)
All in all, KSP seems to be a fairly comparable example where letting publication decisions remain entirely up to the mod authors has not resulted in any serious problems. Mods can be, and are, published on any combination of the fan-run site, the commercial site, version control hosting sites like github, and individual user websites. As mods from any source are literally the same file, it doesn't matter how one gets them. Users of the fan-created mod updater don't even see the difference (when it works), as the mod download source is abstracted away (ideally). That said, the ease of maintenance and collaboration seems to be pushing more mods to have github as their prime repository, as other sites are mere file repository / downloaders and don't have the rich versioning, developer, collaboration, and in some cases hand-over tools.
Stellaris is less similar to DF, but has some interesting comparisons in terms of mod ecosystems. It's interesting in that while Steam Workshop seems to be by far the most popular way of getting your mod seen and distributed, it's not actually required; mods from the workshop can be manually copied and applied without using it, and non-workshop mods can be manually installed. That said, few people seem to do either (with the exception of local personal mods), and AFAIK no one has put in the considerable work to develop a third-party fan-run mod hosting solution that would compete.
Moreover, the absolute firehose of mods, most of which are utter bunk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law), serve to clearly disprove any ideas that the Steam Workshop is inherently a "walled garden" in any way (a busy yet sketchy interstate truckstop might be a better comparison). Publishing a mod is, arguably, too easy; a significant fraction of them posted are multiple versions of some random user's personal-use adjustment where people don't even understand that they are publishing to the world, lame jokes or short-lived memes.
(An interesting practical lesson is that a quite significant number of the mods are translations, not only of the base game, but of other mods. You even get mods that are translations of compatibility mods written to allow two other mods to more or less work together, where all four authors (mod A, mod B, mod A+B compatibility patch, the compatibility patch's translation) are working completely independently. The volume taken up by meta-mods and translations exceed that of the original mods by a noticeable fraction; some of this is due to the nature of connections between things scaling with the square of the number of things (N*(N-1)/2 generally.))
Of course, in the end DF will be its own thing. We all hope that the community around DF will be better, or at least no worse; it will undoubtedly be *bigger*, and that is a mixed blessing.
My main worries are what happens if it actually sells well at first, but gets some sort of backlash. There are a lot more companies that have gotten that sort of thing wrong than right, and skilled community managers that can actually be a net positive are rarer than anyone would like. The DF forums are not so much a walled garden, but a very obscure park (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_Ends_Park) that remains a lot more peaceful and organized than much of the world that surrounds it :)
Post by: Criperum on April 04, 2019, 03:57:25 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 04, 2019, 04:16:29 am
Hi Toady. You've mentioned earlier that the game has software rendered. Does it mean the built-in software renderer provided by opengl vendors or something else. If yes then do you have any metrics about how much performance does it take and will you consider moving to hardware rendering?Software rendered.... graphics? Missing word there somewhere.
If it's graphics you're talking about, then Meph might know more about where DF is going regarding soft Vs hardware graphics rendering and can probably give you an answer quicker (if he knows) over in the official tileset thread.
Post by: Criperum on April 04, 2019, 04:23:22 am
Yeah, missed the word. Edited. Why do you think he knows? I thought he is more an artics not a programmer especially concerning the DF code.Hi Toady. You've mentioned earlier that the game has software rendered. Does it mean the built-in software renderer provided by opengl vendors or something else. If yes then do you have any metrics about how much performance does it take and will you consider moving to hardware rendering?Software rendered.... graphics? Missing word there somewhere.
If it's graphics you're talking about, then Meph might know more about where DF is going regarding soft Vs hardware graphics rendering and can probably give you an answer quicker (if he knows) over in the official tileset thread.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 04, 2019, 04:27:20 am
I imagine he knows the limits of what the current engine can manage and if he needs hardware rendering. He's prototyping animations and all sorts of ambitious stuff over in his thread. He'll have talked with Toady about what needs to change to make any of it possible.Yeah, missed the word. Edited. Why do you think he knows? I thought he is more an artics not a programmer especially concerning the DF code.Hi Toady. You've mentioned earlier that the game has software rendered. Does it mean the built-in software renderer provided by opengl vendors or something else. If yes then do you have any metrics about how much performance does it take and will you consider moving to hardware rendering?Software rendered.... graphics? Missing word there somewhere.
If it's graphics you're talking about, then Meph might know more about where DF is going regarding soft Vs hardware graphics rendering and can probably give you an answer quicker (if he knows) over in the official tileset thread.
I mean, Toady will know for sure, of course, just thought you might want to save 26 days (and someone might have already asked in one of the many other q&a sessions recently).
Post by: zakarum on April 04, 2019, 08:15:28 am
Whether you are aware of it or not, you are making a number of assumptions, some of which come off as argumentative and/or coming from a potentially biased standpoint.The only assumption I'm making is that this change can bring other potential changes and I'm asking if he thought about it at all when opting for a feature that isn't at all mandatory for Steam. It might happen, it might not, I asked his thoughts on this possibility.
Raising the (non-insignificant) possibility of a certain event happening is not biased (in this case, at least) - unless you consider asking if it's gonna rain a biased question.
That is not making an argument either, what triggered your original response. It's not "a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view". It is, purely, a question. You and others before are making this into an argument because, for some reason, you feel compelled to engage in the question that isn't directed to you, maybe because you want that specific feature no matter what and feel threatened by my question. Maybe not, I don't really care. Now what I just typed, that's an argument.
You are making a series of assumptions over what I'm asking. Now we can drag this on or you can accept that you read more in the question and drop it.
That said, the most useful thing is to look at what has actually happened with various similar games.That is off topic to the question and the topic. We are not here to draw scenarios or to speculate on what will happen. That's an argument.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 04, 2019, 09:04:01 am
Hi Toady. You've mentioned earlier that the game has software rendered graphics. Does it mean the built-in software renderer provided by opengl vendors or something else. If yes then do you have any metrics about how much performance does it take and will you consider moving to hardware rendering?Toady and mifki had a short discussion in the TwbT thread. This can be considered the start of that sequence: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138754.msg7943323#msg7943323 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138754.msg7943323#msg7943323).
Post by: Putnam on April 04, 2019, 11:50:31 pm
for some reason, you feel compelled to engage in the question that isn't directed to you
maybe pay attention to the rest of the thread? Every question is replied to in this way by people who feel confident in answering it.
That is off topic to the question and the topic. We are not here to draw scenarios or to speculate on what will happen. That's an argument.
Your question was inherently speculative. "Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community?" is pure speculation, you drew that scenario, formulating it as a question doesn't change that fact, and you used specific examples in your own question, the exact same way the reply did, so telling other people that they aren't allowed to is either 1. bad faith argumentation or 2. you simply forgot what your original question was.
EDIT: And of course the question was already answered: the creator has no responsibility here. The creator should not have responsibility here, and never should when it comes to modding games.
Post by: Meph on April 05, 2019, 03:03:25 am
Lets say you make a gunsmith and copy the forge graphics from Steam, add guns. Done. Legally, this can only be released on Steam. If you'd want the same mod for the free DF version, you either have to release it without graphics, make new graphics, or copy/paste together something from an existing graphic pack.
Tileset authors could make steam-only mods if they really wanted to, but I fail to see why that would be something you'd want. Less people would play your mod.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 05, 2019, 05:43:45 am
Which would be a little annoying seeing as such mods would still be compatible with the non-steam version, but you can't download mods directly from steam without having the game installed there.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 05, 2019, 06:12:28 am
Either not wanting to upload multiple places or just not knowing that there are other places for mods. It would be easy for a lot of mods to only be officially available on steam because the modder doesn't care to put it anywhere else.But upon being informed of where the community actually is and the existence of the free game, it's trivial for a mod maker to say OK to allowing someone to copy those files over to DFFD (or even do it themselves).
Which would be a little annoying seeing as such mods would still be compatible with the non-steam version, but you can't download mods directly from steam without having the game installed there.
Then the only barrier is people who actively don't want to share their mods outside of Steam, and presumably don't actually want people to play them and certainly don't care to have them discussed.
And...you know those mods probably aren't worth playing in the first place.
Post by: Meph on April 05, 2019, 07:20:23 am
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 05, 2019, 07:22:18 am
Since the UI is getting increased mouse support, does this make a mobile version of dwarf fortress a possibility? The Steam Achievments code could also be wired into Google Play, which IIRC also has an achievements function.
Will there be any possibility of floating/dockable menus and submenus? Will you consider the ability to access menus without having to pause the game?
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 05, 2019, 08:25:44 am
That's a dangerous thing to do. You select something and issues an order, and while you do that, said something ceases to exist (dorf killed, workshop toppled...). In the best case nothing happens because the reference is recognized as being invalid; in the bad case the action is performed on the wrong target because the reference to the target now is to a different entity; and in the worst case the reference is a pointer to something that used to be the object but now has been reused for something else, causing the action to write "randomly" into it, causing corruption.
:
Will you consider the ability to access menus without having to pause the game?
It's not impossible to handle, but requires care and extra code.
Post by: therahedwig on April 05, 2019, 10:34:38 am
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That's a dangerous thing to do. You select something and issues an order, and while you do that, said something ceases to exist (dorf killed, workshop toppled...).Isn't the squad menu 'real time'(well, flowing time, more)? I know that took me by surprise the first time I used it.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 05, 2019, 12:47:58 pm
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 05, 2019, 01:42:33 pm
Post by: Magistrum on April 05, 2019, 06:12:01 pm
He's new here, please go easy on him Putnam, he just doesn't know.for some reason, you feel compelled to engage in the question that isn't directed to youmaybe pay attention to the rest of the thread? Every question is replied to in this way by people who feel confident in answering it.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 05, 2019, 06:24:49 pm
If not, I'll just get on over to the Suggestions forum. :)
Post by: iceball3 on April 05, 2019, 06:34:52 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 05, 2019, 06:39:02 pm
Most of the time you can cross the train tracks without looking and not get hit by a train too...
As long as the entity whose data you modify isn't moved or removed, you can modify elements of it that are small enough (and suitably aligned) to be updated as indivisible operations without risk (assuming the elements in question are independent, and ignoring the multiple levels of cashing of modern processors). If data is split into multiple indivisible transactions you run the risk of the other process reading data that's partially the old one and partially the new one, which isn't particularly safe if one element is a pointer to an object and the other element specifies what type of object the pointer points to, for instance.
DF retains units in the units list after they've died, so it may be that their data structures are all retained as well until a new save is loaded (which DT detects), in which case modifying jobs on dead units may well be reasonably safe. Making the assumption that all data is safe to manipulate because some carefully selected ones are is rather risky.
Edit:
Response to Shonai_Dweller's next post:
The response to Buttery_Mess' entry did not attempt to comment on iceball3's post. However, unless you're able to travel in time, it's hard to apply sun screen and protective clothing to the children growing up to become Toady and Threetoe, as the main concern is the result of past sun exposure. And I have reason to believe the current versions of these persons do not rely on hair alone to protect their scalps (although the advice may well be a useful reminder for others).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 05, 2019, 06:43:50 pm
As long as the entity whose data you modify isn't moved or removed, you can modify elements of it that are small enough (and suitably aligned) to be updated as indivisible operations without risk (assuming the elements in question are independent, and ignoring the multiple levels of cashing of modern processors). If data is split into multiple indivisible transactions you run the risk of the other process reading data that's partially the old one and partially the new one, which isn't particularly safe if one element is a pointer to an object and the other element specifies what type of object the pointer points to, for instance.Great points!
DF retains units in the units list after they've died, so it may be that their data structures are all retained as well until a new save is loaded (which DT detects), in which case modifying jobs on dead units may well be reasonably safe. Making the assumption that all data is safe to manipulate because some carefully selected ones are is rather risky.
But...how does it relate to sun hats? ;D
Post by: zakarum on April 05, 2019, 08:26:56 pm
maybe pay attention to the rest of the thread? Every question is replied to in this way by people who feel confident in answering it.Maybe if you aren't 100% sure don't try and answer something you barely understood? Honestly the FotF became worse through the years because of this gate-keeping and you are the worst offender of it. Which makes me want to ask another question
Through the years in the FotF we have more and more people help you with answers, in the sense that you started to quote them for answers (in the past you rarely did that). It saves you time but we get less and less answers from you and we are left dealing with people that think they understand our questions as well as answers were they think they know the answer. It wasn't a huge thing before but it's getting worse through time IMO, though obviously not everyone is guilt of it and some are just trying to be helpful. Do you think that this "priest answering the devotees about the will and the thoughts of the Great Toady" is enabling this and can be harmful to the state of the FotF as well as inhibit direct engagement?
Your question was inherently speculative.You can construe it that way, but it wasn't aimed at your speculation was it? Because I couldn't care less about you speculating on anything.
Quote
is pure speculation, you drew that scenario, formulating it as a question doesn't change that fact, and you used specific examples in your own question, the exact same way the reply did, so telling other people that they aren't allowed to is either 1. bad faith argumentation or 2. you simply forgot what your original question was.Seems like you don't know the meaning of the word "speculation" to me. Let me help you:
spec·u·la·tion: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
Now if my question was speculation it would be necessary I wouldn't have any evidence (or barely any) a split could occur. It would also need to be a theory, not a question, but I'm not in the mood to explain the difference to you. Not really here to educate you, Putnam. But the scenario I "constructed" was based on things that happened, therefore, there's firm evidence that adopting a walled garden can do the things you think are speculation. The adoption of a walled garden is adding the possibility it will happen - how likely you think it is is irrelevant since, let's face it, I'm not interested in your opinion (and I highly doubt anyone here is).
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EDIT: And of course the question was already answered: the creator has no responsibility here. The creator should not have responsibility here, and never should when it comes to modding games.Of course you haven't read anything isn't, typical Putnam response: half answer that doesn't serve anything at all but waste everyone's time.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 05, 2019, 10:38:15 pm
Just thought I'd point out that Toady agreed to a request to quote the people who try to answer the fotf questions, despite the extra time it takes him to do so, because it was hard for people to go back and search for the answers (previously he would say thanks and skip the questions that had already been answered). Now he quotes, and then adds his own answer. Referring to the previous attempts, how much he agrees with that and expanding with his own answers.maybe pay attention to the rest of the thread? Every question is replied to in this way by people who feel confident in answering it.Maybe if you aren't 100% sure don't try and answer something you barely understood? Honestly the FotF became worse through the years because of this gate-keeping and you are the worst offender of it. Which makes me want to ask another question
Through the years in the FotF we have more and more people help you with answers, in the sense that you started to quote them for answers (in the past you rarely did that). It saves you time but we get less and less answers from you
Now, despite the evidence in the thread, I realize that this says the exact opposite of what you say, so I'll add no more and wait for Toady's response at the end of the month.
Post by: DG on April 06, 2019, 12:07:29 am
Post by: Putnam on April 06, 2019, 03:45:43 am
Not really here to educate you, Putnam. But the scenario I "constructed" was based on things that happened, therefore, there's firm evidence that adopting a walled garden can do the things you think are speculation.
It would do well for you to actually read the posts of people who reply to you instead of assuming that you're the only one who has even the slightest bit of intelligence or rigor in a conversation. I was saying you may be arguing in bad faith because when someone else provided evidence of this thing not happening you promptly ignored it and you continue to act as if you were the only person who has done so.
Do you think that Dwarf Fortress will end up like Tales of Maj'Eyal, with an official mod repository (http://dffd.bay12games.com/) on its main website (https://te4.org/addons/tome), a free version (https://te4.org/download) of the game (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) available and steam workshop support on steam? Actually that's not a question, it's literally the exact same situation, and ToME does not have the problems you describe, but of course my example is invalid because it's not yours.
Post by: zakarum on April 06, 2019, 06:50:46 am
It would do well for you to actually read the posts of people who reply to you instead of assuming that you're the only one who has even the slightest bit of intelligence or rigor in a conversation.Funny thing because I can actually say this for almost every reply you give to any post here. I mean if you actually read anything I wrote before you wouldn't reply to me. In retrospect you would reply a lot less to posts if you did this.
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I was saying you may be arguing in bad faith because when someone else provided evidence of this thing not happening you promptly ignored it and you continue to act as if you were the only person who has done so.I'm not arguing, that's the point. I made a question over a possible scenario (and I admitted the possibility of it not happening). If you actually read the posts of people you are replying to you'd know better, but you don't. You are arguing over my question (where I just repeat myself over and over again) which is extremely petty but not out of character for you.
I didn't say it will happen, I said it could happen and asked Toady's opinion on it.
Shonai_dweller tried to help but he misunderstood, Patrik_Lundell and Meph gave their two cents, some people came here to argue and some to give their two cents (lots of times because they misunderstood my question) and you came here because you are Putnam.
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Do you think that Dwarf Fortress will end up like Tales of Maj'Eyal, with an official mod repository (http://dffd.bay12games.com/) on its main website (https://te4.org/addons/tome), a free version (https://te4.org/download) of the game (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) available and steam workshop support on steam? Actually that's not a question, it's literally the exact same situation, and ToME does not have the problems you describe, but of course my example is invalid because it's not yours.I'm not interested in exposing "what I think" to you or the example you brought, I know examples of it happening or not exist. I'm interested in Toady's opinion over his choice, and the possible consequences for his consumers. Is that something hard to understand for you? But to be honest this misunderstanding has dragged on for long enough, derailed the thread long enough and it's close enough to breaking one of the few rules of the forums. And from my 8+ years here I know you won't understand anything I'm saying anyway and will just keep carrying on. So I will just carry on ignoring you or your opinion because that's really the best.
Just thought I'd point out that Toady agreed to a request to quote the people who try to answer the fotf questions, despite the extra time it takes him to do so, because it was hard for people to go back and search for the answers (previously he would say thanks and skip the questions that had already been answered). Now he quotes, and then adds his own answer. Referring to the previous attempts, how much he agrees with that and expanding with his own answers.I was referring to circa 2011-2012 but thanks for the help Shonai.
Now, despite the evidence in the thread, I realize that this says the exact opposite of what you say, so I'll add no more and wait for Toady's response at the end of the month.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 06, 2019, 07:33:57 am
Through the years in the FotF we have more and more people help you with answers, in the sense that you started to quote them for answers (in the past you rarely did that). It saves you time but we get less and less answers from you and we are left dealing with people that think they understand our questions as well as answers were they think they know the answer. It wasn't a huge thing before but it's getting worse through time IMO, though obviously not everyone is guilt of it and some are just trying to be helpful. Do you think that this "priest answering the devotees about the will and the thoughts of the Great Toady" is enabling this and can be harmful to the state of the FotF as well as inhibit direct engagement?
Before assuming/claiming we're getting less answers you might want to actually LOOK at and compare FotF's from the past to the current ones (just did a quick run-through of random ones going back to 2010), which would've shown you that there hasn't been that big a change at all over the years. It spikes around announcements or high info periods and drops during lulls as expected, but if anything we've been slowly getting more and more of both questions and answers ever since the threads were first started. Not saying everyone does it perfectly, but having people who've been around and remember what's been answered already help answer repeat questions is hardly a bad thing considering. And it's no surprise some people get a bit agitated when you come in with all manner of hyperbole, veiled insults and personal attacks. Might want to consider how you express yourself, just saying.
Post by: therahedwig on April 06, 2019, 11:30:42 am
Let's just move on. Zak asked a question, people have added their 2 cents and now it's time to let Tarn answer it later.Nope, we're apparently going to run this into the ground. I can't wait for the next devlog, tbh.
Post by: zakarum on April 06, 2019, 05:44:11 pm
Before assuming/claiming we're getting less answers you might want to actually LOOK at and compare FotF's from the past to the current ones (just did a quick run-through of random ones going back to 2010), which would've shown you that there hasn't been that big a change at all over the years.
But I'm not assuming or claiming we are getting less (total) answers in no way, shape or form. The question is about who answers those questions - not that the total amount of answers went down.
The "you" part of the question is even in bold to denote that.
Damn it's expected for the amount of answers to go up as DF just got more popular through the years and the amount of questions also went up. The amount of questions he doesn't answer directly also went way up and that's the point of the question.
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but having people who've been around and remember what's been answered already help answer repeat questions is hardly a bad thing consideringSure, that's the good part. If someone asks "when is X coming" and someone reply "Toady said in Y arc" then you have an objective answer about something. Problem is the nature of human engagement isn't that simple and a lot of questions have some leeway for interpretation - and the interpretation we get is not from Toady.
Take my previous question. I expect Toady to quote Shonai_Dweller answer or answer the same thing. Why? Because, as we can see, there was a lot of misunderstanding on what the question was about. There's three possible scenarios here, where Toady reads the question and:
A)Understands what I meant and answers it.
B)Thinks he understood but skimming through the discussion around it is left in doubt over what I asked, as people are interpreting it some other way. Which can lead to either scenario A or C.
C)Understand it the way so many people misunderstood it, quote one of the answers that doesn't really answer the question and carries on.
He might even avoid the question thinking the issue got too controversial. While I get a lot of people are trying to help (and I appreciate that), if no one ever answered it thinking that was answered in the Reddit AMA then the only possible scenarios would be he answering it (or not answering at all, which would also be fine). Whether his interpretation of my question was right or wrong, I'd have an answer from the person I'm asking - not from someone else.
Let's say I go to a Q&A with an author. Several people are there, so your question might be picked or not. That's part of it.
But if for your question that was picked someone else in the audience answered and the author just pointed towards the person who answered it, well, that could be frustrating couldn't it? I mean the purpose of the Q&A was to engage with the author and know what he thinks, in his words. Not what someone else in the audience thinks.
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And it's no surprise some people get a bit agitated when you come in with all manner of hyperbole, veiled insults and personal attacks. Might want to consider how you express yourself, just saying.There are no veiled insults or personal attacks in my questions to Toady. If you consider anything I wrote an hyperbole (and the only thing that could be construed that way was my second question, even though it clearly states an IMO which you might be interested to know means "in my opinion") then that's on you but hey, the question isn't directed to you. What compels you to make this strawman over a question that you (or anyone) are not obliged to answer is baffling. If you think I'm being rude when people drop in and interfere in a question I'm asking someone else, well, you are not obliged to interact with me either. Just ignore me.
Post by: bloop_bleep on April 06, 2019, 06:41:08 pm
That's a dangerous thing to do. You select something and issues an order, and while you do that, said something ceases to exist (dorf killed, workshop toppled...). In the best case nothing happens because the reference is recognized as being invalid; in the bad case the action is performed on the wrong target because the reference to the target now is to a different entity; and in the worst case the reference is a pointer to something that used to be the object but now has been reused for something else, causing the action to write "randomly" into it, causing corruption.
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Will you consider the ability to access menus without having to pause the game?
It's not impossible to handle, but requires care and extra code.
Um, well, couldn't Toady just implement it so that whenever you perform an action in a screen, it pauses the game, performs the action, and then unpauses? It's the exact sequence of steps that a user would otherwise perform, so no potential for corruption.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 06, 2019, 08:31:27 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Fair enough on the ratio vs total, still something that's best to clarify then, cause if unspecified the latter would usually be how one interprets that imo (and does kind of frame the entire question in a completely different light).
As for your scenarios, people trying to answer but misunderstanding would imo under optimal circumstances (where it doesn't devolve into arguing) simply lead to the person asking getting feedback that their question might be misunderstood, and help them clarify it (or the discussion itself clarifying it), increasing the likelihood of it being answered properly (and also decreasing the likelihood of scenario D, it not being answered at all). As long as one gets a quote and link to the words of the person one wanted them from then I don't see what difference it makes if it comes via someone else. And yes, not everyone does that which I've agreed isn't ideal, but that doesn't really seem to be the main contention here, unless I'm again completely misunderstanding you?
Not making a strawman either (since that would imply me intentionally trying to misconstrue you, which certainly wasn't my intent), just stated it as I saw it, which again might just be me misunderstanding you then. And I would've ignored it all if there hadn't been an as I saw it blatantly false statement being made (albeit based on misunderstanding the question). It was all meant to be helpful still, despite the slight passive aggressiveness that is hard to not fall into in such perceived circumstances. Prefer to clear up misunderstandings if they happen anyhow. Sorry for the tone and confusion.
Post by: Schmaven on April 06, 2019, 10:55:59 pm
Um, well, couldn't Toady just implement it so that whenever you perform an action in a screen, it pauses the game, performs the action, and then unpauses? It's the exact sequence of steps that a user would otherwise perform, so no potential for corruption.
Do you mean like a micro-pause just long enough for the action to sort through any incongruities rather than pausing for the whole menu operation? That seems more possible. But the part that seems like it would require pausing is the target of the action. Whether it be a creature or an item, if it is not paused, the target could be destroyed, used, or made unavailable between the time that part of the menu is accessed and the selection is made. Or, if all that was accounted for, the menu options for the action's target would be ever changing and it would be a challenge to select 1 from the ever rotating and dancing list of targets.
To avoid that, maybe it could just generate an announcement that the action failed if the target becomes somehow unavailable - like job cancellation spam messages. That seems realistically possible. It could get annoying to have to keep designating actions for things that go in and out of availability often. Pausing it oneself before entering the menus would solve that, but that is where we are now. Having it be an option might work, so players could choose whether they want to have the menus auto-pause, or not. Although the volume job cancellation spam has in effect just caused me to ignore all those messages entirely. So really, the optimal solution would not add to that flood of text to ignore.
I don't know much about the actual details of programming or things getting corrupted, so take the above with a grain of salt.
Post by: bloop_bleep on April 06, 2019, 11:10:47 pm
1. Compute 1 tick of simulation.
2. Update menu screen *according to status of simulation.* Thus if something disappeared since last time, any option to perform actions on it would now be gone.
3. Handle menu inputs and perform indicated actions on game memory.
Even if the input handling is in another thread, it shouldn't be too hard to simply push the keys onto a queue for the simulation thread to pop off on the end of the next tick.
It might even be possible to do something with mutexes or futures to make this work. It's just essential that the input is handled between the time the menu is updated and the next tick is calculated.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 07, 2019, 02:49:52 am
Post by: bloop_bleep on April 07, 2019, 04:36:29 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 09, 2019, 02:01:38 am
Are we talking night trolls paying goblin snatchers for a bit of side work? Or special things only demons get up to?
And, will there be a "quickstart" option for Adventurer parties?Where you want a to play a party of 6 but don't want the hassle of having to define every member.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 09, 2019, 02:11:38 am
Post by: therahedwig on April 09, 2019, 06:43:32 am
Post by: Bumber on April 10, 2019, 05:00:51 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 10, 2019, 06:15:08 am
I think he might be talking about demons. A demon plotting to start a crime ring is a little underwhelming.That was my first thought. Demons should get up to all kinds of demonic stuff.
Still, simple plots by necromancers to start wars between nearby civs would be interesting too.
Post by: Knight Otu on April 10, 2019, 07:05:02 am
The latter is the example Toady gave during his Villains talk at Roguelike Celebration (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-7TtPX5uhg).I think he might be talking about demons. A demon plotting to start a crime ring is a little underwhelming.That was my first thought. Demons should get up to all kinds of demonic stuff.
Still, simple plots by necromancers to start wars between nearby civs would be interesting too.
Post by: Inarius on April 11, 2019, 04:33:20 am
Post by: Schmaven on April 11, 2019, 04:55:29 am
Still, simple plots by necromancers to start wars between nearby civs would be interesting too.
Even better if the necromancers bolstered their ranks with the casualties. However, it can be a narrow window between battle ending and corpse haulers cleaning it all up. So that would fall into the more complex plot category.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 12, 2019, 01:13:12 am
Seeing as we'll have these networks of agents and corrupted position holders and such, and we'll likely see the player being able to take a position on top of that hierarchy, I can't help but see some parallels with LCS. Terrible pickup lines probably don't have a place in DF, though. ;P
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 12, 2019, 02:21:09 am
Do you plan to have the agents of villains use seduction as another method of manipulating people, or will that be limited to just flattery?Terrible pickup lines and awful poetry have already been threatened for the adventurer relationship arc (whenever that may be - long time probably).
Seeing as we'll have these networks of agents and corrupted position holders and such, and we'll likely see the player being able to take a position on top of that hierarchy, I can't help but see some parallels with LCS. Terrible pickup lines probably don't have a place in DF, though. ;P
Post by: Death Dragon on April 12, 2019, 08:55:51 am
Very interested in seeing more of these legends mode changes.
Does "bribery" include promising to share the secret of life and death with someone or is that not in the current version yet?
Actually, I assume that will be part of the "supernatural" villains stuff that is coming up next.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on April 12, 2019, 02:03:36 pm
What about threatening to out someones prior misbehavious (existent or not) to particular people. Say if someone embezzled funds and a conspirator would threaten to make this public unless that someone did XYZ.
Post by: therahedwig on April 12, 2019, 03:01:23 pm
It's nice to see that we'll get all sorts of interesting info about the villains in the legends/xml. I do hope a little that the sites and entities pages get reworked as much as the character pages were, currently they already fill up with all sorts of spying activity which makes it a little hard to see the less frequent activities.
Post by: Magistrum on April 12, 2019, 04:16:10 pm
Does "bribery" include promising to share the secret of life and death with someone or is that not in the current version yet?I'm also very curious, so let me extend the question: Would vampires and other intelligent night creatures be able to offer sharing their curse as reward or create criminal organizations composed only of their brethren?
Post by: voliol on April 13, 2019, 01:51:38 am
Does "bribery" include promising to share the secret of life and death with someone or is that not in the current version yet?I'm also very curious, so let me extend the question: Would vampires and other intelligent night creatures be able to offer sharing their curse as reward or create criminal organizations composed only of their brethren?
The villains talk mentioned by Knight Otu had necromancers taking apprentices under the premise of sooner or later granting them the secrets of life and death. And yes, this included having the apprentices being agents for the necromancers in exchange.
Post by: Magistrum on April 13, 2019, 08:19:59 am
Post by: voliol on April 13, 2019, 12:31:48 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on April 13, 2019, 05:07:02 pm
Hm... that sounds much like a suggestion, but I guess what you're wondering here in the first place is how blackmail functions in game? Because that's often related to revealing information about someone they wanted to keep private. So ask about that?
Does it? But yeah he question is if "Extortion" and "blackmail" are possible/exist under the current system.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 13, 2019, 05:27:30 pm
*Hm... that sounds much like a suggestion, but I guess what you're wondering here in the first place is how blackmail functions in game? Because that's often related to revealing information about someone they wanted to keep private. So ask about that?
Does it? But yeah he question is if "Extortion" and "blackmail" are possible/exist under the current system.
Toady briefly mentions "kind of blackmail" as a mechanic in the villain talk (https://youtu.be/4-7TtPX5uhg) linked earlier, the example given that if the person that was influencing the king's advisor on behalf of the necromancer dies, the advisor could be blackmailed to continue working for the necromancer, since they've already incriminated themselves (can't remember if it was mentioned further, but that's what I could remember and find off the top of my head (17:30ish).
Post by: Pillbo on April 15, 2019, 08:51:54 pm
2. As far as the villains go, I know they can lie and assume identities, but I was wondering if they will be able to hide inventory items from the player as part of their cover/deception with the update? This is also assuming that I've not figured out this is already happening, but it would make sense that we couldn't see what a thief is hiding in their tunic.
Post by: Aid on April 16, 2019, 03:23:19 pm
What do you think about the combat system now? What would you like to improve or change and when can you do it?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 16, 2019, 06:51:29 pm
That said, I guess there aren't really that many concrete rules as to what you can or can't ask in this thread so I'm probably just being a stick-in-the-mud. :P
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 16, 2019, 08:17:48 pm
I fail to see what relevance Toady being a GoT fan has on the future of DF.I assume the question isn't expected to be answered yes/no.
That said, I guess there aren't really that many concrete rules as to what you can or can't ask in this thread so I'm probably just being a stick-in-the-mud. :P
What Influences Toady in fantasy literature, by how much is very relevant. People ask about Toady's RPG influences from time to time too. It informs us as to what we might expect and what Toady may not know in order for us to make better Suggestions.
The next decade or so will see DF attempting to procgen magic systems, societies, politics, religions, culture. What input he has is very much connected to the future of the game (especially if he hasn't read it yet, it's so massive he quite probably won't and will miss what some consider to be a vital system).
Much more relevant than "have you heard of sun hats" anyway... :)
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 16, 2019, 08:27:04 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on April 17, 2019, 09:37:22 am
I fail to see what relevance Toady being a GoT fan has on the future of DF.Necromancers are kinda like white walkers. And Df zombies like wights. Only the necro raises new zombies without the zombies being infectious themselves. Also the necro has kinda control about the zombies like a White walker over wights.
That said, I guess there aren't really that many concrete rules as to what you can or can't ask in this thread so I'm probably just being a stick-in-the-mud. :P
The Zs dont die though if you kill the necromancer - nor do the have problems with obsidian ... unless you hack them to pieces with obsidian swords.
Also the wall looks like a very drwarfy thing. Plus all the backstabing and evil plans etc.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 17, 2019, 03:30:41 pm
Post by: Renarin21 on April 18, 2019, 08:58:06 am
1. Will we ever see any "metamagic", actions/things/magic that changes how magic works/manifests?
2. Will we ever have people in-universe that try to "hack" or exploit loopholes in how the magic works, ala the dwemer from the Elder Scrolls, or the God-Learners from Glorantha?
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on April 18, 2019, 10:45:18 am
For the myth and magic stuff:
1. Will we ever see any "metamagic", actions/things/magic that changes how magic works/manifests?
2. Will we ever have people in-universe that try to "hack" or exploit loopholes in how the magic works, ala the dwemer from the Elder Scrolls, or the God-Learners from Glorantha?
Yes and yes. It's been talked about before here and there, and is also part of the plot of Threetoe's Tales foretold stories, worth a read if you want some insight into their thinking on the subject, especially the analysis segment at the end:
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_tales_foretold.html
One of the aspects of this universe that we wanted to emphasize was the passage between the ages, which is more prominent here than in the last story involving magic (see that story's analysis for more on magic systems and metaphysics, as well as the dev page). There aren't always discrete boundaries -- much like the current DF, the world's balance can change slowly as magical creatures are killed, for example, or as rifts are shut in a multiple-rift/portal apocalypse scenario. Those apocalypse scenarios themselves, on the other hand, set a clear era boundary. The Tales Foretold setting had eight named periods involving two apocalyptic events, and several gradual changes. Sometimes the gradual changes don't involve the fading of magical forces, but rather their growth/flowering through a period of research and stability to the point where the name of the era justifiably changes. The Golden Age and Dulchari period of the Tales Foretold setting worked this way.
We'll save some of the details for a future story, but another aspect of this universe to emphasize is the interconnected mechanics like soul cradles, lines of fate, and material transmutation (in DF, this configuration would be a generated part of one universe). Magical research in the Tales Foretold system involved understanding these building blocks, and then merging them together in new ways. The access to new worlds caused by the first Nightmare Apocalypse allowed additional forms of magic to be incorporated into existing native systems, leading to the more complicated magic used by the Dulchari wizards. When Cenaster separated the world from other planes, certain forms of magic ceased to work, and it also changed the mechanics of the afterlife. In Dwarf Fortress, systematizing the way the basic metaphysical aspects of the world work will cause these effects to happen as consequences of these sorts of disasters, and ideally they'd also be able to adapt to player-led changes in the structure of the universe.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 19, 2019, 10:51:45 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on April 20, 2019, 08:47:31 am
Post by: therahedwig on April 20, 2019, 11:29:54 am
Will slave markets actually make it out of worldgen, or is that a future post-economy update thing? Maybe just trading them with individuals (with the right ethics)?I suspect direct selling will be the current state of affairs, given festivals and inquisitions aren't outside of worldgen either... Unless of course Goblin area will now have a 'market' much like human and elven towns do, but then with people in cages instead of a fruit vendor...
I am glad to see the kidnapping and imprisonment stuff so fleshed out. It's like, it's evil, but it is also something that keeps histfigs alive, and I really like the part where people can escape. I dunno, maybe I watch a few too many detectives/police procedurals, but they really make your appreciate people staying alive.
Torture is pretty bleak though. I am excited for counter-intelligence to make things a little less bleak.
Post by: Death Dragon on April 20, 2019, 04:27:53 pm
Can you give a little example of a villain who instigated a war in your testing? What made him do it? A grudge with a ruler perhaps?
Because of this addition, will there be more wars in general than we have now or will it be balanced out in some way? Will it be possible (or more likely) that the player's fort starts out immediately at war with the humans for example?
Other questions:
It sorta came up before, but wasn't really addressed: Are there cavalry mercenary companies?
Also, when hist figs spend their funds to buy equipment, does that just mean items or can they also acquire pet animals or mounts?
... and I really like the part where people can escape.Yeah, it will be pretty cool to read a random hist fig's legends and see they spent 10 years in someone's dungeon until they managed to escape. I think someone recently brought up Monte Cristo, too.
By the way, if anyone's interested, here's the list of changes in the villain update so far:
https://pastebin.com/gtMVUHDa
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 20, 2019, 05:17:05 pm
Post by: Schmaven on April 20, 2019, 07:05:35 pm
...One factor when selecting which civ to embark with is whether the neighbors at various sites are at war with that civ (some want them to be at war, and some want caravans instead).
I had no idea you could choose which civilization you embarked with :o
It may be too soon to tell, but what are the chances you think existing saves from 44.12 will work with the new villains release?
Post by: therahedwig on April 20, 2019, 07:19:40 pm
Yeah, that was me, and then someone else formulated a question about it regarding buying property.... and I really like the part where people can escape.Yeah, it will be pretty cool to read a random hist fig's legends and see they spent 10 years in someone's dungeon until they managed to escape. I think someone recently brought up Monte Cristo, too.
My conclusion was that the only thing missing was boats and finding treasure by listening to your fellow prison mates... but it seems you could turn that into 'prisoner escapes, steals artifact' and from there there's the taking up a silly name, assasination, poison, but I am not sure about revenge...?
A part of me feels it's a bit sad you need to go into legends mode to learn stuff like this about your dwarves, but another part is a little skeptical that having dwarves list their strongest world-gen events as memories won't end up being very buggy. :D
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 20, 2019, 08:18:07 pm
From previous releases, I'd say 99% chance of it being compatible unless some major corruption happens suddenly....One factor when selecting which civ to embark with is whether the neighbors at various sites are at war with that civ (some want them to be at war, and some want caravans instead).
I had no idea you could choose which civilization you embarked with :o
It may be too soon to tell, but what are the chances you think existing saves from 44.12 will work with the new villains release?
Saves are always compatible except on major development rewrites, like the Big Wait (and previously world activation in 2014), and we know about those in advance.
Steam release might end up that way, I suppose? Not sure how much underlying code is being replaced there.
Now, you won't have any villains in your old world of course (except the occasional new one who crops up, but it seems like they'll take a while to develop networks so likely all but non-existent during a fortress' lifespan). Probably no Merc companies, trading companies, religions, etc either.
But all the new Adventurer options should be available.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 21, 2019, 03:08:08 am
One of the tab views shows the available playable civ and you can select which one to start as (changing the civ also changes which dwarven fortress is your starting point [it's a blue rather than white fortress, I think], so you can start far away from the "home" if you want to ensure all enemies attack your fortress, for instance)....One factor when selecting which civ to embark with is whether the neighbors at various sites are at war with that civ (some want them to be at war, and some want caravans instead).
I had no idea you could choose which civilization you embarked with :o
It may be too soon to tell, but what are the chances you think existing saves from 44.12 will work with the new villains release?
As Shonai_Dweller said, compatibility is high on Toady's list of priorities. However, while saves are compatible, new things do not magically appear in an existing world. Things that the new release generates during world gen wasn't generated in the old save, and still won't appear (instruments and art forms fairly recently), and new equipment won't appear (e.g. pedestals and display cases recently, and step ladders earlier). It varies whether it's better to stay on the old version or to continue on to the new one. My current guess is that the new stuff won't cause harm to an existing fortress (the stress system rewrite did, as the old mitigation methods were removed, and many of the new ones weren't available), and getting the fatal raiding related bugs fixed (in the bug fix releases after the villains release, if Toady continues using the old production formula rather then the one to be adopted for the commercial version) will probably be worth an upgrade once those fixes are in. Bugs in villainy probably won't be much a problem if villainy itself isn't present to any extent...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 21, 2019, 03:27:30 am
There's the question of whether player fortress dwarves will be villaneous by themselves due to grudges and lust for power I suppose. And if they can, will dwarves from old saves get the new stats of respect, fear, loyalty and trust or the intrigue skill? Might be a bit weird at first.One of the tab views shows the available playable civ and you can select which one to start as (changing the civ also changes which dwarven fortress is your starting point [it's a blue rather than white fortress, I think], so you can start far away from the "home" if you want to ensure all enemies attack your fortress, for instance)....One factor when selecting which civ to embark with is whether the neighbors at various sites are at war with that civ (some want them to be at war, and some want caravans instead).
I had no idea you could choose which civilization you embarked with :o
It may be too soon to tell, but what are the chances you think existing saves from 44.12 will work with the new villains release?
As Shonai_Dweller said, compatibility is high on Toady's list of priorities. However, while saves are compatible, new things do not magically appear in an existing world. Things that the new release generates during world gen wasn't generated in the old save, and still won't appear (instruments and art forms fairly recently), and new equipment won't appear (e.g. pedestals and display cases recently, and step ladders earlier). It varies whether it's better to stay on the old version or to continue on to the new one. My current guess is that the new stuff won't cause harm to an existing fortress (the stress system rewrite did, as the old mitigation methods were removed, and many of the new ones weren't available), and getting the fatal raiding related bugs fixed (in the bug fix releases after the villains release, if Toady continues using the old production formula rather then the one to be adopted for the commercial version) will probably be worth an upgrade once those fixes are in. Bugs in villainy probably won't be much a problem if villainy itself isn't present to any extent...
Post by: therahedwig on April 21, 2019, 12:12:20 pm
I've been reading/watching people's DF let's plays lately, and I am noticing a lot of them aren't interacting with the civ screen much despite it being one of the most important screens when it comes to DF throwing dangers at you. And I am wondering if that's not because most of the dangers just kinda come at you out of nowhere. As for the init setting, was mostly wondering because then we can reliably test how good villains are at generating fort mode Fun without the game having to fudge it a bit.
Actually continuing on that thought a bit:
* Are there plans to flesh out refugees a little in the last bits of the pre-magic arc? They seem to be a very underdeveloped symptom of bleak stuff happening in the world, and there's a whole lot of new bleak stuff for them to run away from. Like, is there anything fundamental stopping them from showing up at your tavern like performance and quester troupes do?
* Will we see escapees show up at our forts?
* Do you think worldgen actors will be smart enough to chase after refugees and escapees?
Post by: Criperum on April 21, 2019, 03:41:10 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 21, 2019, 04:32:52 pm
Will interface changes (especially mouse support and better control windows) be available on classic version or they are steam/itchio exclusive like tileset and sound effects?The difference between the classic and the commercial versions will be tile set, music, and vendor guff (such as e.g. achievements), if I've understood the discussions correctly.
Post by: Criperum on April 21, 2019, 06:15:17 pm
Post by: Magistrum on April 21, 2019, 07:13:15 pm
Will we see anytime soon the mountainhome request military aid in the form of soldiers or attack orders?
I could see conscription being pretty easy to implement as it can simply be the liaison telling you to "expel" this or that dwarf or some number of able bodied dwarves back to wherever, but that would probably be too annoying if you couldn't refuse.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 22, 2019, 03:19:12 am
We can now request people from our holdings and all, so:Given that civs are currently unable to muster armies, but rather send whatever warm bodies they can round up in the site selected to perform an attack, the logical basis for such a request is currently missing, and doesn't seem to be even in the vicinity of the already horrendously bloated To-Do list before the Big Wait, I'd say there's no chance for it in the near term.
Will we see anytime soon the mountainhome request military aid in the form of soldiers or attack orders?
I could see conscription being pretty easy to implement as it can simply be the liaison telling you to "expel" this or that dwarf or some number of able bodied dwarves back to wherever, but that would probably be too annoying if you couldn't refuse.
If a soldier request feature was implemented, I'd expect the soldiers' exploits to be visible in Legends Mode, i.e. that they participated in this attack and that one, kills (or getting killed), etc. Another important question is whether the feature would be desirable for players. If you just get a request to sacrifice citizens, I'd expect it to be an annoyance to most players (although it might be another opportunity beyond sending away to get rid of stressed ones). Sending mercs and monster slayers (if you've got any surviving ones), might sting less. However, if there was a reward attached, such as the survivors returning with experience and possibly some useful/interesting items (medals?), it might even things out. This is deep in the Suggestion territory, however.
A request to attack a site could be interesting, but apart from being outside the short term scope, it wouldn't be trivial to implement it in a reasonable way. For such an order/request to be reasonable, the target strength has to somehow be compared to the military might of the player fortress so an attack makes some kind of sense (yes, there are real world leaders without any sense...). This is something that might fit better with a starting scenario where the fortress is some kind of military facility.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 22, 2019, 04:10:20 am
1) There's no reward for fulfilling daft noble demands, why would annoying Mountain home requests be any different? Experience would be good, but only when training gets nerfed some. Punishment on the other hand might be interesting.We can now request people from our holdings and all, so:Given that civs are currently unable to muster armies, but rather send whatever warm bodies they can round up in the site selected to perform an attack, the logical basis for such a request is currently missing, and doesn't seem to be even in the vicinity of the already horrendously bloated To-Do list before the Big Wait, I'd say there's no chance for it in the near term.
Will we see anytime soon the mountainhome request military aid in the form of soldiers or attack orders?
I could see conscription being pretty easy to implement as it can simply be the liaison telling you to "expel" this or that dwarf or some number of able bodied dwarves back to wherever, but that would probably be too annoying if you couldn't refuse.
If a soldier request feature was implemented, I'd expect the soldiers' exploits to be visible in Legends Mode, i.e. that they participated in this attack and that one, kills (or getting killed), etc. Another important question is whether the feature would be desirable for players. If you just get a request to sacrifice citizens, I'd expect it to be an annoyance to most players (although it might be another opportunity beyond sending away to get rid of stressed ones). Sending mercs and monster slayers (if you've got any surviving ones), might sting less. However, if there was a reward attached, such as the survivors returning with experience and possibly some useful/interesting items (medals?), it might even things out. This is deep in the Suggestion territory, however.
A request to attack a site could be interesting, but apart from being outside the short term scope, it wouldn't be trivial to implement it in a reasonable way. For such an order/request to be reasonable, the target strength has to somehow be compared to the military might of the player fortress so an attack makes some kind of sense (yes, there are real world leaders without any sense...). This is something that might fit better with a starting scenario where the fortress is some kind of military facility.
2) Army Vs army battles is part of the bloated to-do list. That involves sites other than your own raising armies to fight each other. So I'd say "no chance" is pretty harsh. An army development arc post-Steam, if it happens, would very likely include worldgen army raising work. Would be strange if it didn't.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 22, 2019, 07:59:19 am
Post by: Criperum on April 22, 2019, 08:17:22 am
Post by: Eric Blank on April 22, 2019, 09:22:07 am
Last time i asked about army bugs but was too uncertain. The exact one I'm concerned about is frequent inability of soldiers to find their armor, weapon and equipment even if they were specifically designated to wear specific part of it. Will this be fixed in some near future?
If theres a recent or recently updated bug report on it, its as likely to be fixed after this next release as anything else, so make sure you report problems youre having.
Post by: therahedwig on April 22, 2019, 11:13:36 am
Or, at the least, the base issue is that dwarves have always been terrible at getting dressed, but now it is compounded by rank, upgrades, 'civilian uniforms', needing to have multiple items for certain things like archery, storing equipment, etc. And that is not even touching the equipment confusion(and corruption) coming from dwarves going on raids.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 22, 2019, 12:03:59 pm
Last time i asked about army bugs but was too uncertain. The exact one I'm concerned about is frequent inability of soldiers to find their armor, weapon and equipment even if they were specifically designated to wear specific part of it. Will this be fixed in some near future?therahedwig mentioned the two main bugs I know of that match the (still too imprecise) description. The raid equipment corruption crash bug will most certainly be addressed, but it doesn't seem Toady is going to change to a current + next version parallel code base line development model until after the first Villains release has been made (and possibly not until the Commercial release is made as well), so it's most likely going to be fixed in the first few post Villain bug fix releases. The old standing equipment bug probably won't be addressed then (unless Toady feels it's time to deal with it when in the vicinity dealing with the corruption bug), but is a good candidate for fixing when Toady attacks the military UI to make it more user friendly as part of the Commercial release preparations. I'd be surprised if Toady made any promises, though...
It can be mentioned that attempts to fix the old bug has been made in the past, and I believe those attempts have improved the situation a little.
Post by: clinodev on April 23, 2019, 02:14:59 am
I've been reading/watching people's DF let's plays lately, and I am noticing a lot of them aren't interacting with the civ screen much despite it being one of the most important screens when it comes to DF throwing dangers at you. And I am wondering if that's not because most of the dangers just kinda come at you out of nowhere.
I know it was just commentary, not lime green, but. . ..
I watch a lot of hours of DF Twitch streams, and I also notice people are staying out of the civ screen. I believe it's split pretty evenly between
a) experienced players aware of the aforementioned raid equipment corruption crash bug, and
b) people getting back into DF after not having played for some time who are unaware of it.
The second group are a little frustrating, because what to say? "Oh, there's this really neat thing! But, um, you probably shouldn't use most of the cool stuff, because you might crash on stream."
Post by: Death Dragon on April 23, 2019, 09:59:13 am
The second group are a little frustrating, because what to say? "Oh, there's this really neat thing! But, um, you probably shouldn't use most of the cool stuff, because you might crash on stream."Well, if they don't expect crashes then why are they playing DF? :P
Do we know how that equipment corruption raid crash is caused? I don't remember crashing during raids personally.
@Death Dragon: It's certainly possible for your dwarven civ to start out at war with other civs, and it happens from time to time that such civs happens to be the "neighbor" civs visible pre embark (where you can see that they're at war with your civ). This has been possible at least since 0.40.X, and probably much longer. One factor when selecting which civ to embark with is whether the neighbors at various sites are at war with that civ (some want them to be at war, and some want caravans instead).Yeah I figured it was already possible, but I assume that it will now possibly be more common.
Given that the villains can now start wars, and that civs can now have a claim on artifacts, are you considering getting rid of the siege triggers?Aren't the siege triggers still needed to prevent very early fortresses from being immediately overrun by invading armies?
I'm not entirely sure how it works, but when you start a fort and you're immediately at war with some civ, you still have to pass some triggering conditions before you can actually be a target of enemy raids, right?
Post by: Telgin on April 23, 2019, 10:05:43 am
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on April 23, 2019, 10:13:08 am
Given that the villains can now start wars, and that civs can now have a claim on artifacts, are you considering getting rid of the siege triggers?Aren't the siege triggers still needed to prevent very early fortresses from being immediately overrun by invading armies?
I'm not entirely sure how it works, but when you start a fort and you're immediately at war with some civ, you still have to pass some triggering conditions before you can actually be a target of enemy raids, right?
As far as I can tell the triggers are still in the raws. And they will probably remain there in the next version to handle non-villain-related attacks unless Toady has come up with a new system in the meantime. Plus, as Telgin said, there's already ways to handle attackers that don't use the usual triggers, such as necromancers and bandits.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 23, 2019, 11:18:38 am
If the rate at which wars happen changes the DF worlds run the risk of descending into smoldering ruins where everyone is at war with everyone else (and the number of necromancers explode if the secret cap allows it and there are sufficiently many survivors to recruit from), unless there is something that compensates by increasing the rate at which civs make peace.
@Telgin:
The attack triggers are based on pop, wealth, and exported wealth, not on time. However, you usually won't get a pop over 80 (the default civ pop trigger) within a single year. If you raid early you forfeit the pop trigger protection (at least with regards to that civ: I don't know if it's removed completely, but it wouldn't be unreasonable). Note that wars are between civs, so starting at war just means your parent civ is at war, but your site is removed from the potential targets list until the siege trigger protection is lifted.
Post by: therahedwig on April 23, 2019, 12:16:06 pm
If only, because, as far as I can tell, if background worldgen has it's way, Dwarf civs are mostly at peace with Goblins and always at war with the Elves, because Elves are creeps who make trophies out of their enemies. Or at the least, this is what legends mode tells me.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 23, 2019, 04:24:23 pm
I didn't know siege triggers themselves gave protection? This might also be because it is really easy to trigger them, and if it is protection, it is also an enforcement of sieges. Once you git the Goblin siege trigger(80 Dwarves), the Goblins will go to war with the Dwarves for no reason(legends say 'unknown' reasons) and you get sieges. And that's the part I am thinking villains might actually be a proper replacement mechanic for now.After the interface improvement arc, when hopefully it's more obvious what the embark screen is trying to tell you, might be a good time to get rid of triggers for civs we're already at war with.
If only, because, as far as I can tell, if background worldgen has it's way, Dwarf civs are mostly at peace with Goblins and always at war with the Elves, because Elves are creeps who make trophies out of their enemies. Or at the least, this is what legends mode tells me.
It already gives you warnings about salt water, aquifers and being almost extinct. It could easily add "the civ you've selected is at war, you might get roflstomped early". You usually get a choice of a couple of civs, and a chance to not embark as neighbours to the civ you're at war with.
Post by: falcc on April 25, 2019, 09:35:20 am
2.Is it possible to modify together an item that works both as a shield and as something equivalent to a crutch?
3. For adventurer medical improvements, how much will be hardcoded?
Specifically I'm thinking about the fact that some of these rock bracelets ought to be very heavy. And in theory a stone splint, something meant to keep you immobile or minimize movement when you heal, would be pretty cool as a variation on splints. But learning to move with something like that puts me in the mind of crutch-walking taking a lot of time to master. But since I'm not suggesting any of it, I'm curious how moddable something like that could be before the big wait. Either with planned additions or what's in the raws now.
4. Once adventurer medical improvements are in, can you get a reputation for treating people's injuries? Any possibility of being treated like a physician (since the skill exists in a scholarly way already) that is welcome in enemy lands because you're so well known for treating anyone you come across? How about treating someone unconscious from a kill on sight faction in order to build personal/entity trust?
5. Can you get hired to take care of these people being tortured in towers, giving you the chance to free them?
6. Will this mean caring for your pets injuries as well?
7. Could you treat the dead's wounds indefinitely to improve your skills provided you were the necromancer that summoned them? Just getting that out of the way now.
Post by: therahedwig on April 25, 2019, 10:09:52 am
5. seems to require the ability of histfigs to hire one another for non-stabby purposes... Which does seem like a missing 'linking' thing in general...
6. Was sorta asked before, and the response was something along the lines of 'not right now'.
Hm... now I am also curious on what the notes for the general medical improvements look like. I don't recall any big medical threads in suggestions since it was introduced? But I am also not on the forum all year long :)
EDIT: This seems to be it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=30097.0), but it is definitely from before the hospitals got introduced, so a lot of it got in there already. Though apparantly noone was interested in plain old influenza ;)
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 25, 2019, 01:14:03 pm
Normal undead ought to provide the same treatment benefits as regular dead (i.e. none) given that they shouldn't heal. Unusual undead (i.e. necromancers and vampires currently) ought to provide the same benefit as any regular sapient.
:
7. Could you treat the dead's wounds indefinitely to improve your skills provided you were the necromancer that summoned them? Just getting that out of the way now.
If you want unrestricted training you should go for weres instead (with the associated monthly risk of not locking them up properly before they turn).
Post by: therahedwig on April 25, 2019, 02:26:35 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 25, 2019, 09:32:33 pm
What exactly was your inspiration for making goblins immortal? I've had trouble finding a precedent for it in fantasy games and literature, indeed they're often shown to have lifespans shorter than that of the average humanoid (vanilla D&D goblins seldom live more than 60 years, for instance). Or is it something just entirely original that you came up with on your own?
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 26, 2019, 12:43:40 am
Something I've been curious about for a while:
What exactly was your inspiration for making goblins immortal? I've had trouble finding a precedent for it in fantasy games and literature, indeed they're often shown to have lifespans shorter than that of the average humanoid (vanilla D&D goblins seldom live more than 60 years, for instance). Or is it something just entirely original that you came up with on your own?
Despite occasional arguments to the contrary, I still can't help but suspect it's tied into the same reasons they were likely initially made so that they don't need food or drink: to ensure that all these factors don't add extra stress to the population of the most murder-happy civ in the game, one's been intended basically since the beginning to be THE main rival to a player's fortress.
Recall for a time that carnivorous civs used to have trouble surviving worldgen, and this was noticed to most prominently affect kobolds in vanilla (in addition to all the additional complications caused by an enforced low population cap, site restriction, and having worldgen battles with beasts HEAVILY stacked against them), whereas for goblins these tokens seemed to add further advantage towards making it through worldgen in fighting shape.
Post by: iceball3 on April 26, 2019, 01:01:57 am
I wonder, as mechanics open up that allow such a thing, would some means of their sustenance or continued success be expressed through an ingame resource or influence. Anything from a deity rewarding blood sacrifice with bounties of food to Sauron-esque dirt-and-magic fueled goblings. This could be an area where spheres of a species would be a bit relevant, too, i think.Something I've been curious about for a while:
What exactly was your inspiration for making goblins immortal? I've had trouble finding a precedent for it in fantasy games and literature, indeed they're often shown to have lifespans shorter than that of the average humanoid (vanilla D&D goblins seldom live more than 60 years, for instance). Or is it something just entirely original that you came up with on your own?
Despite occasional arguments to the contrary, I still can't help but suspect it's tied into the same reasons they were likely initially made so that they don't need food or drink: to ensure that all these factors don't add extra stress to the population of the most murder-happy civ in the game, one's been intended basically since the beginning to be THE main rival to a player's fortress.
Recall for a time that carnivorous civs used to have trouble surviving worldgen, and this was noticed to most prominently affect kobolds in vanilla (in addition to all the additional complications caused by an enforced low population cap, site restriction, and having worldgen battles with beasts HEAVILY stacked against them), whereas for goblins these tokens seemed to add further advantage towards making it through worldgen in fighting shape.
Concerning the fact that modding not only can change the nature of races, but often replace or displace them, are there any concerns that the mythgen update and other planned procedural generation may be too dependent on quadruple supremacy of the goblins, elves, humans, and dwarves to produce sensible results in worlds with different ethical and cultural landscapes?
Will mythgen happen strictly before or after terrain generation?
For example, mythgen happening before worldgen would in theory allow different terrestrial worlds to share a common mythological backdrop via a seed, and the significance of regional disturbances, theological significance, etc would be retroactive.
Whereas mythgen happening after worldgen would mean the terrain that makes up the world could affect creation and/or creation myths, and may even have limited development of their permanent legacy as worldgen time ticks on, and potentially define significant theological figures based on the sculpting of the world itself, in theory.
And finally:
Will we be able to disable any "randomly generated objects" as they are implemented, from mythgen to magic, and make specific raw definitions that worlds would treat as any other generated definition? Similar to how current werewolf, vampire, regional disturbance, and boogeymen can currently be disabled and modded in.
Being able to custom build the world from the ground up sounds like it would work wonders for modding, but I imagine as things get more complex, decoupling things like actual magic from a world's theology becomes too much of a nuisance to allow rewriting from scratch in the raws.
Post by: therahedwig on April 26, 2019, 06:03:48 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 26, 2019, 07:15:39 am
There was talk about magic, tone and I think randomness sliders, so I suposse setting the latter to 0 would turn off all randomly generated objects :)And a fixed world editor too for creating myths, artifacts, histfigs, sites and so on. Coming sometime during Mythgen releases.
If you search back through fotf you'll find the topic of modding, mythgen, randomness and other stuff covered a few times.
Post by: Real_bang on April 27, 2019, 05:27:54 am
2. Should we expect the whole world (or at least most of the world civilizations) uniting before the great danger of the demon king or zombie army?
Post by: Egan_BW on April 27, 2019, 06:34:53 am
2. Should we expect the whole world (or at least most of the world civilizations) uniting before the great danger of the demon king or zombie army?
Ah yes, we draw ever closer to being able to play That Which Sleeps entirely within DF.
Post by: Death Dragon on April 27, 2019, 09:23:25 am
Post by: therahedwig on April 27, 2019, 10:06:03 am
It's starting to sound like having the diplomat/liason go mad because they can't path out of the fortress might actually be detrimental on the long term next release...
Oh, and what kind of factors are involved with investigating histfigs regarding what kind of investigation technique they use? Are these the same as villain's corruption techniques? Like, for example, can a investigating histfig suspect someone might have been bribed without interrogating them? Or is a goblin investigator more likely to use torture? Do goblins at all care about investigating?
Post by: voliol on April 27, 2019, 04:00:57 pm
Will this necromancer villain code most likely be applicable to any body-using, randomly generated magic of the magic update, or is it gonna require some rewrites later?An expansion to this question, and then another one:
1. Do the supernatural villains act according to the interaction tokens given in the raws (so modded interactees are properly supported), or is it currently mostly the vanilla villain types that have hard-coded support?
2. To which degree do the villains consider their own physical properties when making up plans? A giant-beast necromancer wouldn't have any problems with producing corpses for themselves to use in raising, I imagine. Also related are meek dwarves considering physical threats to get their way.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 28, 2019, 01:56:27 am
Post by: Beag on April 28, 2019, 12:46:32 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 28, 2019, 04:37:15 pm
Since the player adventurer can be a villain themselves with agents will they be able to make alliances with other villains? If so what would the benefits and costs of such alliances be?I suspect we won't get that far until the post-Steam pre-Big Wait update (if it happens) when you'll potentially have actual armies at your command. Also people being plotted against by you will form alliances with their allies, whether they are villains or not is presumably irrelevant. An alliance of criminal organizations trying to take you out would be pretty interesting though!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 28, 2019, 05:03:59 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 29, 2019, 04:13:12 am
Do you guys have plans for player forts to participate in alliances before the big wait?
It's starting to sound like having the diplomat/liason go mad because they can't path out of the fortress might actually be detrimental on the long term next release...
Quote
"Never thought id die fighting side by side with a elf" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDT3_jVYAkI)
*looks up at the dribbling elf wearing wood looking off into the distance*
"By Armok we're all dead already."
Though in fairness elves have lots of beasts that could help with the state of how powerful animals are in non-real time fighting, whether they decide to bring them is another matter.
Post by: MrWiggles on April 29, 2019, 07:18:26 am
Is the tutorial you've been thinking of (PC Gamer) likely to be an addition for the paid version of DF like the tileset and music, or is this something for the game in general? (I know the tutorial-by-acheivement idea would have to be Steam only, just meaning the regular 'how to build stuff, restore your woodcutter's arms' parts).The Steam version isnt getting anything special beside the tileset. And the tileset just comes bundle with the steam version. The speical work going in for the tileset, will be open to any future tileset.
Post by: Schmaven on April 29, 2019, 07:45:33 am
Post by: therahedwig on April 29, 2019, 08:15:31 am
When might we hope to see siege engines targeting accross multiple z-levels?Last answer on this...
Quote
Source (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7606864;topicseen#msg7606864)QuoteWould the moving fortress part/boat arc also lay the groundwork for proper carts/wagons and invader siege engines (wheeled towers and battering rams in particular)?Yep, the idea is that these are all the same thing. There's a bit of a question down at the cart/minecart size, things that are just a few tiles, like if those'll be actual map sections or something more like the siege arrow that just sticks out from an item a bit.
So that's gonna be a while still :)
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 29, 2019, 08:30:37 am
No. The Premium version (Steam AND Itch.io) should have a soundtrack as well as the tileset, while the Steam version seems to get Steam Achievements on top of that. Shonai_Dweller's question is quite relevant, as it IS unclear both if a tutorial type thing is going to be produced, and whether it's going to be available in all DF versions, Premium, or Steam only if it appears.Is the tutorial you've been thinking of (PC Gamer) likely to be an addition for the paid version of DF like the tileset and music, or is this something for the game in general? (I know the tutorial-by-acheivement idea would have to be Steam only, just meaning the regular 'how to build stuff, restore your woodcutter's arms' parts).The Steam version isnt getting anything special beside the tileset. And the tileset just comes bundle with the steam version. The speical work going in for the tileset, will be open to any future tileset.
The underlying mechanics changes (whatever they end up being) are intended to be available to all DF versions (as stated), if I understand it correctly, so tileset artists should be able to create sets making use of those mechanics. This probably means only the Premium version will have a tileset at release, while community tilesets will play catch-up (as it's always been).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 29, 2019, 09:49:54 am
Just want to double-check as it's been mentioned as being "unclear". I assumed I must have missed some comment about it somewhere in the rush of info a couple of weeks ago.Is the tutorial you've been thinking of (PC Gamer) likely to be an addition for the paid version of DF like the tileset and music, or is this something for the game in general? (I know the tutorial-by-acheivement idea would have to be Steam only, just meaning the regular 'how to build stuff, restore your woodcutter's arms' parts).The Steam version isnt getting anything special beside the tileset. And the tileset just comes bundle with the steam version. The speical work going in for the tileset, will be open to any future tileset.
Post by: Miuramir on April 29, 2019, 07:57:44 pm
What exactly was your inspiration for making goblins immortal? I've had trouble finding a precedent for it in fantasy games and literature, indeed they're often shown to have lifespans shorter than that of the average humanoid ...
Well, the OG precedent is pretty clearly Tolkien, and works directly inspired by his legendarium. The Wikipedia entry on Orc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc) is a good starting point. To summarize even further: in Tolkien's works, "orc" and "goblin" are used fairly interchangeably, and in a significant fraction of the works, orcs (goblins) are twisted and corrupted elves, possibly cross-bred with other races (including lesser Maia), and thus are as physically immortal as elves are.
"Since Melkor could not 'create' an independent species, but had immense powers of corruption and distortion of those that came into his power, it is probable that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them plainly (and biologically) were corruptions of Elves (and probably later also of Men). But always among them (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes. (These would exhibit terrifying and demonic characters.)"
Bolg, being the son of Azog, was the chieftain of the crcs who attacked Erebor in the Battle of Five Armies in TA 2941. Azog himself was killed in the Battle of Azanulbizar in TA 2799, so Bolg was at least 150 years old; and IIRC there's no indication that he was considered "elderly"; this strongly implies that at least some orcs had theoretical lifespans stretching to near the two century mark if not killed in battle or treachery before that point.
If you read the discussion between Shagrat and Gorbag that Sam overhears shortly after the Shelob fight, they talk about remembering "old times" with no "Big Bosses"; that almost certainly has to have been before around TA 1300 when the Nazgul have reformed enough to start reasserting rule over Angmar and otherwise exerting the will of a reforming Sauron. This implies that they're highly likely over 1,700 years old at a minimum.
A somewhat more controversial reading of some of their other comments in that discussion can be taken to imply that they are *older than the Nazgul*. As the Nazgul more or less came to prominence around SA 2250, that's about 1190 years of the latter part of the Second Age plus about 3020 years of the Third Age... over 4,200 years old. Given that orcs were being bred up in quantity in Angband prior to the start of the *First* Age, it's at least possible that there are a tiny number of orcs out there that are over 7,000 years old; so in that context 4,200+ is not unreasonable. However, reading a bit more between the lines, they seem to refer to Sauron as the "Biggest Boss", which implies that they probably post-date the defeat of Morgoth.
(My personal head canon is that Shagrat and Gorbag probably date back to before the rise of the Nazgul in SA 2250, but after the massive defeat of Sauron's forces at the end of the War of the Elves and Sauron in SA 1700, as very few are said to have escaped the wrath of the united armies. So, around 4,500 years old in round numbers (+- 200ish). AFAIK this fits the available evidence and isn't contradicted or particularly unlikely.)
Some side works pick up on this; for example, Lord of the Rings Online (which launched in April 2007, and obviously was being written several years before that) implicitly assumes in various plotlines that there are at least a few individual orcs still around from thousands of years ago, and probably previous Ages.
Post by: LordBaal on April 29, 2019, 08:36:49 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 30, 2019, 01:47:02 am
I just used to mod them to live under 60~70 years.
Eh, i prefer to have have them be able to eat since it does give them a means to actually starve if they waste all of their resources or you pull the creatures they have from underneath them out of the tower in desolate conditions. Everyone has their own personal solutions i suppose.
Post by: Random_Dragon on April 30, 2019, 11:01:00 am
Post by: clinodev on May 01, 2019, 12:25:07 am
When you work on the greatly anticipated stress, needs, and happiness changes, will you focus more on fixing the little bugs that made your original plan not work, or more on modifying the algorithm to run stress towards "okay" rather than either ecstatic or misery until well-run, safe fortresses stop breaking around the 5-6 year mark (without extreme micromanagement?) Likely some of each, but have you decided a focus?
Note I'm not asking if it'll be fixed, as that's been well-covered, but it would be neat to see the original plan implemented! There was a moment around August when I was actually somewhat excited the needs bugs might encourage the fixing of long-standing but trivial bugs, like allowing dwarves to: enjoy well-made meals, rather than only (secretly) craving Zebra hearts or polar bear brains; seek out their specifically needed temple; seek out friendships and relationships; grab desired high-value clothes and trinkets from stockpiles, etc.
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2019, 02:17:32 am
Quote from: zakarum
Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community? I understand your decision to opt for Steam Workshop integration but you are running the risk of making your consumers in Itch.io into second-class consumers. I also know you have no responsibility in regards to where modders choose to upload their mods, but you can create the walled garden that allows it to happen in the first place. So what's your take on this?
other posts: (long argument ensues, too many to link)
The forums are going to start with a huge headstart on the number of mods, and most of them won't be uploaded to workshop. The walls are lower, but if anything is a walled garden of modded community content with established experienced modders, it'll be Classic/the B12 forums, for a good long while. People in the thread provided examples of games working out in different ways, and as unlikely as a negative outcome is (I have no idea, but there seem to be plenty of healthy examples), that'll be a risk, sure. That doesn't make it the wrong decision for us. The big decision was to sell the game at all, which I believe is a more consequential walling/second-class-creation issue, at least until graphics mods catch up with the Steam version, and even afterward if we look at how easy it is to install a Steam/itch game. It's a decision we avoided for more than a decade, since we wanted the game to be freely available. Now the game will still be freely available, with some caveats. It's the best we could figure out while remaining alive, etc.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Do you think the updates for Steam release will add enough changes that it will break saves like Mythgen probably will? Maybe that's a good thing for working without restrictions?
I certainly have to pretend I'm working without restrictions. It's important to have the best Steam/itch launch possible. All the same, I'm not sure saves will actually be affected. It's quite likely we're going to change up the entire raw/init structure, etc., (since we can't just throw all the graphics into the save folders, for speed/size reasons if nothing else) but my current thinking is that it'll be possible to do that while maintaining the viability of old saves. More localized, and perhaps more problematic, the way the old creature graphics txt files work will almost certainly be changed. I think it'll be a manageable change, save-wise, but if it gets gnarly, yeah, I'll have to just make a break.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With the updates to the UI, are you going to take a stab at consolidating rooms, workshops, stockpiles and zones? It occurs to me that these are all "places where a certain activity is done" but they all have different menus and processes to do it, and this is the source of more confusion than having to learn which key does what.
Is there any chance that the Big Wait might be chopped into smaller waits? I was imagining that the map rewrite could accompany myths/legends (as pre-w.g fluff) before the mechanics of magic are added.
How far has the economy can been kicked down the road? Do you think that it will be more or less of a headache than organising a real economy?
Will the introduction of magic accompany a filling out of crafting options in adventurer mode? I ask because it occurred to me that the use of magical reagants is a standard fantasy trope, and that that might require a better fleshed out crafting interface. Additionally, transmutation of one object into another is a fantasy staple and I suppose that's another sort of crafting.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953144#msg7953144
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953146#msg7953146
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953147#msg7953147
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953155#msg7953155
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953156#msg7953156
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953156#msg7953156
Yeah, there just isn't going to be time to do the big reconsolidation cleanly, even though it'll mean losing some time and artwork on the old way of doing things. Generally, it's not going to be a good time for risky rewrites, since there are enough issues to clean up as it stands.
Indeed, as therahedwig wrote, the Big Wait is already the chopped down version, at least in terms of the stuff that's going to take time. The myths and map rewrite by themselves will take a year at least, I expect, and I also think I need to have something satisfying to show for all of that.
Yeah, the economy can has been sitting down with boats at the post-property/law/etc. release for a long while now. A lot of the industry and consumption is already in world generation, as well as certain sorts of trade, but it doesn't entirely make sense. There are many things that can go wrong on the way, but there are also many tweaks and hand-waves at our disposal to fix them, so I don't think it'll be nearly as difficult as a real economic simulation. I have some experience with this in side projects, and I've also read through some of the suggestion posts expression various concerns - I'm not yet worried. But stuff can always come up, and there may or may not be good plateaus we can stop on, since the elements will all be interlinked or possibly just slow/mem heavy right at the outset. At the very least, we can fall back on a fixed-price model, as in most games, and tweak a bit of oversaturated/rarity market pricing from there for flavor. However, I want to try the more ambitious stuff first.
Kind of goes with your second question - as the need arises, we'll get more crafting, and as you suggest, several magic systems intersect heavily with crafting, but we're not sure what's going to be added.
Quote from: Criperum
Hi Toady. You've mentioned earlier that the game has software rendered graphics. Does it mean the built-in software renderer provided by opengl vendors or something else. If yes then do you have any metrics about how much performance does it take and will you consider moving to hardware rendering?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953567#msg7953567
Criperum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953569#msg7953569
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953570#msg7953570
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7953647#msg7953647
The link PatrikLundell posted is going to be the state of affairs on this - I haven't gotten a chance to look at it further and won't be able to until the villains are out.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Since the UI is getting increased mouse support, does this make a mobile version of dwarf fortress a possibility? The Steam Achievments code could also be wired into Google Play, which IIRC also has an achievements function.
Will there be any possibility of floating/dockable menus and submenus? Will you consider the ability to access menus without having to pause the game?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954074#msg7954074
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954126#msg7954126
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954182#msg7954182
Buttery_Mess (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954233#msg7954233
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954400#msg7954400
bloop_bleep: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954856#msg7954856
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954920#msg7954920
bloop_bleep: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954926#msg7954926
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954958#msg7954958
bloop_bleep: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954972#msg7954972
I'm not particularly thinking about a mobile version, but yeah, if we achieve total separation from the keyboard (unclear if we'll even get close to that), that would be more possible, though there are other obstacles I'm sure.
Yeah, there are a few outstanding issues, but at least out in the main fort mode part of the game, some work on modernized menus is under consideration.
I might have missed it in the long conversation, but an additional issue with having menus accessible during pause is, for instance, the item distance calculations that happen in the construction menu. There's a little kerchunk non-trivial calc time that goes into that, and it can't easily be kept up to date. For some other menus, yeah, there are various dynamic issues with dead objects etc., but it's more manageable, though I'm not sure we'll attempt it if the harder/slower menus can't come along for the ride.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
With the new graphical capabilities, you'll be bringing a lot of the functionality that TWBT strived to bring to the game to vanilla, which is great. However, one thing TWBT never managed was to allow a separate tileset for the world map.[BlatantSuggestion] Might that be something you have planned for the Steam release? [/BlatantSuggestion].
If not, I'll just get on over to the Suggestions forum. :)
We've already been playing with art for that, yeah. Nothing's finalized yet, but everybody's optimistic and it looks like we'll have a dedicated world map.
Quote from: iceball3
Hey Toady, you mentioned a potential concern of melanomas caused by sun exposure. I do think you know the whole sunblock thing already, but did you know that the scalp is rather sensetive to UV, regardless of hair coverage? A sun hat could be a pretty good call!
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7954400#msg7954400
Quote from: zakarum
Through the years in the FotF we have more and more people help you with answers, in the sense that you started to quote them for answers (in the past you rarely did that). It saves you time but we get less and less answers from you and we are left dealing with people that think they understand our questions as well as answers were they think they know the answer. It wasn't a huge thing before but it's getting worse through time IMO, though obviously not everyone is guilt of it and some are just trying to be helpful. Do you think that this "priest answering the devotees about the will and the thoughts of the Great Toady" is enabling this and can be harmful to the state of the FotF as well as inhibit direct engagement?
More harmful to direct engagement would be the end of FotF, which would have happened years ago if not for all the people helping out in here. There is no longer enough time to address every element of every question by myself. It's an imperfect process, for a variety of reasons, as your question up at the top of post demonstrated, but I haven't received a better suggestion.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, what's different about supernatural villains? Is it a secret? :)
Are we talking night trolls paying goblin snatchers for a bit of side work? Or special things only demons get up to?
And, will there be a "quickstart" option for Adventurer parties?Where you want a to play a party of 6 but don't want the hassle of having to define every member.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7955751#msg7955751
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7956144#msg7956144
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7956154#msg7956154
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7956165#msg7956165
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7956545#msg7956545
There's been a bit more about the supernatural in the logs since this question was asked, and now it's just up to time and what we get to, so I'll leave it to the logs rather than over-promising (though there is a tidbit in a question below.)
I haven't set up a quickstart option, but it's a sound idea. It does take a bit of time to select even the basic options that many times.
Quote from: Inarius
In Adventure mode, will we witness bribe attempts (bribe or any other form of corruption) ? And will we be able (if we can) to interfere with them ?
A reason why the adventurer is definitely planned to be a head villain that can send out lieutenants, but being an intermediate is much harder, is the local realization of all the plots. In some cases, we don't have the systems in at all, and in others, it's still quite a bit of fiddly fiddly choreography that might be dangerous to do at this time. It's much like the army rampages that way. So I wouldn't expect everything to work. We'll do the ones we can.
Quote from: Egan_BW
Do you plan to have the agents of villains use seduction as another method of manipulating people, or will that be limited to just flattery?
Seeing as we'll have these networks of agents and corrupted position holders and such, and we'll likely see the player being able to take a position on top of that hierarchy, I can't help but see some parallels with LCS. Terrible pickup lines probably don't have a place in DF, though. ;P
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7956879#msg7956879
Did not do seduction or false-lovers at this point - even the 'fake friends' part from agents didn't end up being integrated much. There's still some consolidation to do, though it'll have to be later now. This often happens when we are experimenting with new systems, and we can only hope nothing else gets as out of hand as the buildings/zones/piles/rooms/locations stuff.
I am afraid of what our conversations will be like when I get there, since there will have to be something... and it'll probably be very, very bad, like the rest of the conversations.
Quote
Quote from: Death Dragon"... with the ability (upcoming in a bit) to expose most of the factors in the decision-making to legends mode."
Very interested in seeing more of these legends mode changes.
Does "bribery" include promising to share the secret of life and death with someone or is that not in the current version yet?
Actually, I assume that will be part of the "supernatural" villains stuff that is coming up next.Quote from: MagistrumI'm also very curious, so let me extend the question: Would vampires and other intelligent night creatures be able to offer sharing their curse as reward or create criminal organizations composed only of their brethren?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7957256#msg7957256
This is on the table for our supernatural additions, yeah. The use of the curse as an inducement for agents or to grow the cult etc. is in the middle tier after we get the zombies and alliances up, and after a necessary general update to vampire cults (that became sidelined by all the villain stuff.) So it's not guaranteed, but it's likely if time is in our favor.
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
What about threatening to out someones prior misbehavious (existent or not) to particular people. Say if someone embezzled funds and a conspirator would threaten to make this public unless that someone did XYZ.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7957074#msg7957074
Yeah, that's the basic form of blackmail right now, using undiscovered prior criminal agreements or acts against them.
Quote from: Pillbo
1. With the update to relationships coming will we see any cross race romance (if it doesn't happen now and I've just never seen it)? Ignoring half-bred offspring, I think it would be cool to see dwarves marry the local goblin or plump helmet man, or even cross-racial political marriages to give legitimacy to the odd elf who becomes a dwarven king, or to unite rival villain gangs.
2. As far as the villains go, I know they can lie and assume identities, but I was wondering if they will be able to hide inventory items from the player as part of their cover/deception with the update? This is also assuming that I've not figured out this is already happening, but it would make sense that we couldn't see what a thief is hiding in their tunic.
1. I haven't changed anything about it yet and don't have any particular plans. It's a common enough theme, but it'd probably introduce some odd bugs due to the variable mismatches, so I might do it all at once, once we solve the child etc. issues.
2. I'm not sure here; giving the player a chance to catch them might be fun, but it'd be kind of irritating if it felt like you had to pore over every inventory list to see where one of your artifacts went. With the vampires, we mostly erred on the siding of them being able to hide information from you.
Quote from: Aid
Hello Toady, I have to ask during this noise, you are watching the Game of the Thrones or if you read "A Song of Ice and Fire"?
What do you think about the combat system now? What would you like to improve or change and when can you do it?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7958591#msg7958591
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7958610#msg7958610
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7958613#msg7958613
Mel_Vixen: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7958778#msg7958778
Yeah, I've read the books and have seen about half of the seasons (missed a lot of the middle for whatever reason.) I didn't read the books until the show came on though, in 2011, so I'm not sure how influential it has been on DF stuff.
There are lots and lots of notes on combat stuff, scattered around. There's the 'combat flow' and 'combat styles' sections on the main page here: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html . And a lot of the stuff on the old pages still apply: http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html . But I'm not going to try to deal with choosing the details until later. The next chance will be with any army-type stuff that occurs after the Steam/itch release. After that, I'm not sure.
Quote from: Renarin21
For the myth and magic stuff:
1. Will we ever see any "metamagic", actions/things/magic that changes how magic works/manifests?
2. Will we ever have people in-universe that try to "hack" or exploit loopholes in how the magic works, ala the dwemer from the Elder Scrolls, or the God-Learners from Glorantha?
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7959182#msg7959182
Yeah, we're hoping that some of the universes will get quite technical or otherwise allow for this sort of thing. Of course, the ai characters can only go so far, and it'll surely be the player that comes up with the best 'exploits' in meta-magic-style systems.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So with players having access to villain commands, we can now kidnap, torture and sell into slavery people we don't like? That sounds fun. Will slave markets actually make it out of worldgen, or is that a future post-economy update thing? Maybe just trading them with individuals (with the right ethics)? Or sending a companion away with orders to go sell the slaves in an abstract off-map market?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7959924#msg7959924
I haven't added anything either personal or institutional - much like the captive-taking in world gen wars, they just get transferred over to one of the civ's sites and have an abstract slave status. I'm not sure yet how that will manifest in adv mode. There will be a flurry of decision-making when we get there it seems! Since individual ownership isn't involved, the companion thing sounds like the best guess.
Quote from: Immortal-D
If the Steam release is wildly successful and you have lots of extra funds, have you considered using an NDA to bring in professional programming help? If only to cleanup and otherwise optimize the code.
That's a possibility, yeah, if we want some poor soul to suffer. Depending on the kind of cleanup, some general source availability might be more appropriate, number-of-eyes-wise, though there are a still boatload of issues to consider there even when the overall funds issue is removed.
Quote from: Death Dragon
I think I'm most hyped about the ability to instigate wars between civs. Really hope that the player will be able to send out agents in fort mode with that goal.
Can you give a little example of a villain who instigated a war in your testing? What made him do it? A grudge with a ruler perhaps?
Because of this addition, will there be more wars in general than we have now or will it be balanced out in some way? Will it be possible (or more likely) that the player's fort starts out immediately at war with the humans for example?
Other questions:
It sorta came up before, but wasn't really addressed: Are there cavalry mercenary companies?
Also, when hist figs spend their funds to buy equipment, does that just mean items or can they also acquire pet animals or mounts?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960019#msg7960019
I didn't do a story log since time has been shorter lately, with all the extra email and Steam-adjacent work that's been floating about. I saw that a few villain-led wars were started, but I didn't go through and investigate what was going on. It's quite likely a ruler grudge, yeah, though whether that was due to past religious persecution or just because the villain was jealous over a lover or something, I didn't check, ha ha ha.
Clearly that means more wars, just based on the mechanics, but stuff like the upcoming alliances will be a counterbalance. We'll see if scheming ex-lovers cause the end of civilization, I suppose, once I get my first zombie apocalypse rolling. I do have to be careful in general, since a world gen that just ends all life on the planet is not exactly a playable world. At least it shouldn't be the default! And as with some of the other unbalanced parts of world gen, it might be the end state of all worlds now if necromantic secrets always arise; they just need to succeed one time, while the living need to win each war. Will continue to test and ponder as we go. But yeah, you might start more often in an atypical war now, due to the specific historical situation.
I haven't done anything with mercenary mounts; world gen is a bit pesky and particular about animal populations outside of the heroic tamings, so we're currently still working only with the new adv mode stuff. When I do the final bits there, purchases and so on, we'll see if there are additional changes. Probably not, but can't be sure.
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2019, 02:17:49 am
Quote from: Schmaven
It may be too soon to tell, but what are the chances you think existing saves from 44.12 will work with the new villains release?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960076#msg7960076
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960179#msg7960179
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960183#msg7960183
Yeah, they work now, and there's nothing so large coming that that should change. You can never 100% rule it out, but it seems likely everything will work at some baseline level. However, yeah, there won't be any plots in place for history, no mercenary companies or any of that, and all of the new relationship variables will be at default levels, so, as usual, it might be good to wrap up the stuff you are working on eventually and then cook up a new world for the full experience, depending on the project.
Quote from: therahedwig
Given that the villains can now start wars, and that civs can now have a claim on artifacts, are you considering getting rid of the siege triggers? Or do you guys still have a bunch of other... fun you want to implement to make sieges a naturally occurring thing? Similarly, will villain-caused wars listen to the invasion toggle in the configuration, or will it be like the raid-response sieges? I'd ask the same thing for the megabeasts, but I already know they live very boring lives outside of initial worldgen. :D
I've been reading/watching people's DF let's plays lately, and I am noticing a lot of them aren't interacting with the civ screen much despite it being one of the most important screens when it comes to DF throwing dangers at you. And I am wondering if that's not because most of the dangers just kinda come at you out of nowhere. As for the init setting, was mostly wondering because then we can reliably test how good villains are at generating fort mode Fun without the game having to fudge it a bit.
Actually continuing on that thought a bit:
* Are there plans to flesh out refugees a little in the last bits of the pre-magic arc? They seem to be a very underdeveloped symptom of bleak stuff happening in the world, and there's a whole lot of new bleak stuff for them to run away from. Like, is there anything fundamental stopping them from showing up at your tavern like performance and quester troupes do?
* Will we see escapees show up at our forts?
* Do you think worldgen actors will be smart enough to chase after refugees and escapees?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960950#msg7960950
Telgin: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960952#msg7960952
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960954#msg7960954
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960975#msg7960975
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960996#msg7960996
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7961099#msg7961099
Yeah, overall, we're slowly entering a world where most siege triggers are unnecessary, both as a form of protection and as a form of forcing invasions. The 'c' screen change was a first step, and we should see additional changes as we go through the pre-Big-Wait army changes (even if nothing happens this time.) Ideally, we can almost entirely get rid of them then, but there's still the missing notion of your fort being an economic target, which we don't have any systems for yet. Once you can, say, send out caravans or something, we can get rid of that one too.
We had some notes on refugees but haven't gotten to it yet. Not sure about the future. The main issue is that there are too many of them, oftentimes, so they should instead probably join a village outside your fort and then send a representative to talk to you, something like that.
Escapees have to go somewhere. But I have no idea if I'll get to any special announcements about it, or if they'll just resume their lives.
They aren't smart enough to chase them now, though they can continue to plot against them, which can feel vaguely the same in w.g. sometimes. After w.g., it probably won't feel nearly so timely.
Quote
Quote from: CriperumWill interface changes (especially mouse support and better control windows) be available on classic version or they are steam/itchio exclusive like tileset and sound effects?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerIs the tutorial you've been thinking of (PC Gamer) likely to be an addition for the paid version of DF like the tileset and music, or is this something for the game in general? (I know the tutorial-by-acheivement idea would have to be Steam only, just meaning the regular 'how to build stuff, restore your woodcutter's arms' parts).
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960341#msg7960341
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7963029#msg7963029
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7963050#msg7963050
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7963084#msg7963084
Yeah, the Classic version should get the mouse stuff and all of the accessibility changes. It's just easier to do it that way, I think, rather than trying to maintain two totally different interface schemes, though we're also going to try to keep the full text console-style version.
Quote from: Magistrum
We can now request people from our holdings and all, so:
Will we see anytime soon the mountainhome request military aid in the form of soldiers or attack orders?
I could see conscription being pretty easy to implement as it can simply be the liaison telling you to "expel" this or that dwarf or some number of able bodied dwarves back to wherever, but that would probably be too annoying if you couldn't refuse.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960485#msg7960485
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960491#msg7960491
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960553#msg7960553
The alliance dev log came after these questions, but it's probably the biggest angle now. I'm not sure exactly what form alliances vs. fort mode will take this time through, but now that we're actually going to engage in that sort of positive and active politics, I think the chances have increased significantly. And it might even matter in some substantive way in e.g. the fight against the goblins or the dead. There's a kind of betterment to the player's overall military-political understanding of the world implicit in organized villains and alliances and army battles that, if we're lucky, will achieve a kind of happy balanced picture before we go off to do magic. It's also quite possible it'll still be mega-lumpy, like everything else in the game.
Quote from: Criperum
Last time i asked about army bugs but was too uncertain. The exact one I'm concerned about is frequent inability of soldiers to find their armor, weapon and equipment even if they were specifically designated to wear specific part of it. Will this be fixed in some near future?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960570#msg7960570
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960601#msg7960601
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960613#msg7960613
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960844#msg7960844
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960950#msg7960950
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7960975#msg7960975
The linked bug 535 (in therahedwig's post) has become a container for all equipment bugs, so it might not ever be closed. All the same, we're going to be working a lot with equipment information before the Steam release, as part of the accessibility improvements, and I imagine some bugs will end up squashed once we have better reports on which items have been selected and should be in their hands (or why not, if they are having trouble getting an assignment, due to layering or civ/mil conflicts or whatever.)
The raid issue mentioned in the linked posts, as I recollect, was something I tried for some time to fix in the past, and had to add a hacky patch to stop some of the crashing (and apparently not all of it.) I'm not sure if the situation has changed, but, while the end symptoms reproduced, I haven't seen a way yet to reproduce the root cause from start to finish, so it's just been impossible to fix. Kind of like the nemesis load error, this might be one that just gets patched over in more and more ways, and we just never figure out what's up.
Quote from: falcc
1.What are the middle-term plans for parrying and shielding?
2.Is it possible to modify together an item that works both as a shield and as something equivalent to a crutch?
3. For adventurer medical improvements, how much will be hardcoded?
Specifically I'm thinking about the fact that some of these rock bracelets ought to be very heavy. And in theory a stone splint, something meant to keep you immobile or minimize movement when you heal, would be pretty cool as a variation on splints. But learning to move with something like that puts me in the mind of crutch-walking taking a lot of time to master. But since I'm not suggesting any of it, I'm curious how moddable something like that could be before the big wait. Either with planned additions or what's in the raws now.
4. Once adventurer medical improvements are in, can you get a reputation for treating people's injuries? Any possibility of being treated like a physician (since the skill exists in a scholarly way already) that is welcome in enemy lands because you're so well known for treating anyone you come across? How about treating someone unconscious from a kill on sight faction in order to build personal/entity trust?
5. Can you get hired to take care of these people being tortured in towers, giving you the chance to free them?
6. Will this mean caring for your pets injuries as well?
7. Could you treat the dead's wounds indefinitely to improve your skills provided you were the necromancer that summoned them? Just getting that out of the way now.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7961676#msg7961676
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7961730#msg7961730
1. Nothing I can recall, aside from parrying natural attacks. I'm sure it'll enter into whatever we do with combat styles, but we're far from having specific plans.
2. I'm not sure what the modders have done, but generally, the items are pretty separate from each other, which is a failure of the original design. What's likely to happen is the tool items getting more and more features until they are essentially doing an entity component system instead of using hierarchical types, and then we'll be fine, and most of the other item types can be dropped (once various interface etc issues are figured out.) But that's a large project, at least to get it all the way finished. It does have the benefit of being able to piecemeal for a while, but some of the interface decisions probably need a cleaner break, and we won't be there for a while.
3. I don't know that we'd suddenly have bracelets emerge with a use like that; it doesn't seem likely. Just getting up to some of what can happen in dwarf mode would be useful, and that just means items that work more or less how they work now.
4. I'm not sure if this is worth it just because it'd be so uncommon to be in a position where you can help a random third party, without the ability to accompany them on some dangerous task or something, without a lot of sitting around and waiting and then popping into scenes that aren't currently coded.
5. A kidnapping is one of the villainous plots to be investigated, and freeing captives seems natural enough, but we haven't nailed down how the investigations start yet. If you mean in the medical context, then there's currently no notion of hiring for that sort of thing, and it wasn't part of the plan, similar to the answer for #4, since there's not a lot of third-party injuries generally.
6. If you mean adv mode medical, rather than the upcoming pet release, it seems possible, in the same way you'd care for your companions, though fort mode is very underdeveloped along these lines, so I'm not sure.
7. In the way people throw stones constantly to become legendary throwers? I suppose to some extent it would let you suture them up and so forth, but you might have to rebreak them afterward? Or tear the sutures out? But yeah, as long as you can find a pathway that works, I don't see why it wouldn't work, somewhat. Medical students work with unanimated cadavers profitably, though perhaps the game should be taught that working with the undead isn't exactly live practice either.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
What exactly was your inspiration for making goblins immortal? I've had trouble finding a precedent for it in fantasy games and literature, indeed they're often shown to have lifespans shorter than that of the average humanoid (vanilla D&D goblins seldom live more than 60 years, for instance). Or is it something just entirely original that you came up with on your own?
Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7961944#msg7961944
iceball3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7961949#msg7961949
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7963297#msg7963297
Been a while, so I don't recall exactly, though as Miuramir recounts, it's Tolkieny, like a lot of DF, and was perhaps just the default decision for that reason. Afterward, in some of the TT stories, they became more underworld inflected and demon-like, and it fit our general concept that they should die only violent deaths. However, like all of our stuff, we don't actually want to have a canon -- the myth generator is intended to allow for actual different possibilities, and the idea of DF as a 'fantasy world simulator' should allow for the setting to be defined freely, without any pins tacking it here or there, or at least as few as possible (clearly, having a dwarf-style colony is still a strong requirement, though we'd like to lessen that as we can over the long haul.) I mean, I can't tell somebody named PlumpHelmetMan not to be attached to the current canon, he he he, and there will likely always be a default set of raw-type files for people to play with, but I expect mortal goblins and various other possibilities will be generated once we get there. Goblins that starve to death, elves that aren't *that* hungry, etc. The generator will need to know which parts of the default raws are crucial, and which ones are mutable, and that'll likely depend on a txt similar to the current world gen parameters, probably, though there are enough concerns laying on the architecture now that I don't want to commit to anything without looking over all the notes and being careful about it, when the time comes.
Quote from: iceball3
Concerning the fact that modding not only can change the nature of races, but often replace or displace them, are there any concerns that the mythgen update and other planned procedural generation may be too dependent on quadruple supremacy of the goblins, elves, humans, and dwarves to produce sensible results in worlds with different ethical and cultural landscapes?
Will mythgen happen strictly before or after terrain generation?
For example, mythgen happening before worldgen would in theory allow different terrestrial worlds to share a common mythological backdrop via a seed, and the significance of regional disturbances, theological significance, etc would be retroactive.
Whereas mythgen happening after worldgen would mean the terrain that makes up the world could affect creation and/or creation myths, and may even have limited development of their permanent legacy as worldgen time ticks on, and potentially define significant theological figures based on the sculpting of the world itself, in theory.
And finally:
Will we be able to disable any "randomly generated objects" as they are implemented, from mythgen to magic, and make specific raw definitions that worlds would treat as any other generated definition? Similar to how current werewolf, vampire, regional disturbance, and boogeymen can currently be disabled and modded in.
Being able to custom build the world from the ground up sounds like it would work wonders for modding, but I imagine as things get more complex, decoupling things like actual magic from a world's theology becomes too much of a nuisance to allow rewriting from scratch in the raws.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7962006#msg7962006
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7962021#msg7962021
As stated in the response to the previous question, I certainly don't plan for it to always be dependent on the four main races being represented in as equal numbers as possible.
There's no set idea now about exactly how the terrain is going to be defined -- there are abstract stand-in objects that get more detail as it goes, and it seems quite possible for the exact terrain details to pop in either earlier or later in the process, even in stages. I gave a talk at some point (the progmech one maybe?) where I had the granularity of time and space increasing as you go, and the order in which those steps happen doesn't have to be fully determined. It's of course more work to allow for more possibilities, and I'm not sure at this point which option(s) will make sense to try first. And in a sense, due to the ongoing nature of magic etc., myth gen doesn't ever really end, even when the historical years and civs are running, since there can still be interventions or other major mythological events. In the models with cycles or an apocalypse, these events can be just as large as the original myth events, though one does have to be careful about memory/wasting people's time at some point.
And yeah, as the responses indicate, you'll be able to shut all the random stuff off and build the world up from scratch if you want. There will have to be a raw format for all of the magic-myth links, but our generators have always generated into a txt format (even if the generators themselves aren't text), so this should be doable.
Quote from: Real_bang
1. Should we expect necromancer alliances to take over the world with even bigger zombie army?
2. Should we expect the whole world (or at least most of the world civilizations) uniting before the great danger of the demon king or zombie army?
1. We have to explore the psychology of the necromancers a small bit, why they behave so strangely after learning the secrets, and that'll likely determine if/how they interface with the alliance code at all. They seem friendly enough in their apprentice structures currently, but I'm not sure that'll last, or if it extends to like-minded strangers.
2. Yeah, that's the idea, even if some of the sides are looking to bail and backstab right when the tide turns.
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Quote from: Death DragonWill this necromancer villain code most likely be applicable to any body-using, randomly generated magic of the magic update, or is it gonna require some rewrites later?Quote from: voliolAn expansion to this question, and then another one:
1. Do the supernatural villains act according to the interaction tokens given in the raws (so modded interactees are properly supported), or is it currently mostly the vanilla villain types that have hard-coded support?
2. To which degree do the villains consider their own physical properties when making up plans? A giant-beast necromancer wouldn't have any problems with producing corpses for themselves to use in raising, I imagine. Also related are meek dwarves considering physical threats to get their way.
I'm not exactly aiming for future proofing on this particular part of the update - the myth/magic stuff is going to be too disruptive. Just going to have a little fun.
1. I haven't been following closely how it currently works, but that'll likely continue. As with the future myth/magic tie-ins, broad support is not the priority here, since most of this is going to be trashed in some form or another later. The myth/magic release is going to be closely interlocked with modding, and we should start to see much more appropriate ai/etc. support at that time (though at some point of course it's impossible for an analyzer to detect how to use an effect and it'll require hints, in what'll possibly be a much-expanded version of the current system, or something else.)
2. There isn't much of this at all. Plan-making is rarely able to be that free-form, and I have to spend most of my time on the common cases.
Quote from: therahedwig
Do you guys have plans for player forts to participate in alliances before the big wait?
It's starting to sound like having the diplomat/liason go mad because they can't path out of the fortress might actually be detrimental on the long term next release...
Oh, and what kind of factors are involved with investigating histfigs regarding what kind of investigation technique they use? Are these the same as villain's corruption techniques? Like, for example, can a investigating histfig suspect someone might have been bribed without interrogating them? Or is a goblin investigator more likely to use torture? Do goblins at all care about investigating?
Before the big wait? Seems quite likely, yeah. Maybe even for this time, though the word 'participate' might be doing some heavy-lifting.
The investigators are pretty half-baked compared to all the time I spent on villains; the interrogations use skills, but they don't attempt to say, bribe or blackmail the suspect, even if they have the power to do it. They can have evidence without interrogation, from witness reports (for instance), but they don't pick up little hints (that would just be made up in world gen anyway, as it is for catching embezzlers, since we don't have granular detail most places.) The goblin justice apparatus is currently too kind on certain issues, but executes for treason. Overall, counter-intelligence needs more work, and might get some as I get into adv and fort mode investigations and start to feel certain absences, but I felt like it was time to move on for now.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
As an adventurer we can follow the villain clues, interrogate the sub-agents and finally take out the big baddie ourselves (I assume), but can we also contribute towards our civ's overall counter-intelligence operations? Like, hunt the clues, find out who's behind the plotting, and then tell the king/spymaster about it and have his armies take out the top plotter hq instead of doing it ourselves?
I'm really not sure yet, but after doing the counter-intelligence stuff, it's starting to look like this might be almost a kind of default quest setup, yeah. The spies/sheriffs/etc. always end up wanting to speak to people beyond their reach - the arms of the law are not very long right now, without some enterprising person willing to go off into other territory, especially because we didn't get to active counter-intelligence plots by the civs. The idea of a final climactic army strike against villains doesn't happen in w.g. right now - it might be one of those things that turns out being so necessary it just goes in (we'll even have a shot presently with the alliance stuff, depending on how the nature of the evil is interpreted by the civs.) Generally, there's this feeling currently that the clean investigative process we were imagining when we started is often going to be more dirty with half-explored graphs etc, as there's so much out there, and this'll possibly integrate well with the civ-led processes. We'll try to identify the most promising game tracks as we go. It's pretty funny how foggy the iterative process ends up being sometimes, even after trying to hash out details for a long time in advance.
Quote from: Beag
Since the player adventurer can be a villain themselves with agents will they be able to make alliances with other villains? If so what would the benefits and costs of such alliances be?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7962863#msg7962863
The current alliance plan operates at the entity level, so there's a sort of gray area there as it concerns the player, since the player can create an entity, but many villains are not inclined to do so. I'm also not sure on this first pass how far the alliance concept will go - it'll be a general state, like most other things, but the triggers for it will begin against these large threats as described. Whether or not we get it working at smaller scales will depend on how easily it feels like it can go or matter that way mechnically right now - if alliances only relate to raising civ-style armies, they mostly won't apply to criminal organizations.
Quote from: Schmaven
When might we hope to see siege engines targeting accross multiple z-levels?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7963044#msg7963044
On the targeting question specifically, I just haven't addressed it (as I recollect, siege engines predate the Z coordinate and then I just never worked on them again), and (as linked by therahedwig) there have been such grandiose plans for future engines that nothing has happened. That's where we're at still.
Quote from: clinodev
When you work on the greatly anticipated stress, needs, and happiness changes, will you focus more on fixing the little bugs that made your original plan not work, or more on modifying the algorithm to run stress towards "okay" rather than either ecstatic or misery until well-run, safe fortresses stop breaking around the 5-6 year mark (without extreme micromanagement?) Likely some of each, but have you decided a focus?
Note I'm not asking if it'll be fixed, as that's been well-covered, but it would be neat to see the original plan implemented! There was a moment around August when I was actually somewhat excited the needs bugs might encourage the fixing of long-standing but trivial bugs, like allowing dwarves to: enjoy well-made meals, rather than only (secretly) craving Zebra hearts or polar bear brains; seek out their specifically needed temple; seek out friendships and relationships; grab desired high-value clothes and trinkets from stockpiles, etc.
That might even be mostly the same thing, depending on how much the long-term stress problems depend on broken needs vs. e.g. broken memories. A lot of the notes I've taken down are about several issues with socializing, meal thoughts, etc. I haven't jumped into it yet, which makes it hard to answer your question completely. Issues with long-term memories inside stress-prone dwarves, that kind of thing; I haven't gotten up to speed on all of it yet, and won't until the work begins. I have some threads marked down to look at when the time comes. Ideally, a really poorly run fortress will break over the needs issues, while even an 'okay' fortress won't completely fall apart over the background stressors.
Post by: Real_bang on May 01, 2019, 03:58:19 am
Post by: clinodev on May 01, 2019, 04:24:57 am
Post by: Death Dragon on May 01, 2019, 04:47:47 am
I didn't do a story log since time has been shorter lately, with all the extra email and Steam-adjacent work that's been floating about. I saw that a few villain-led wars were started, but I didn't go through and investigate what was going on. It's quite likely a ruler grudge, yeah, though whether that was due to past religious persecution or just because the villain was jealous over a lover or something, I didn't check, ha ha ha.Hell yeah, thanks.
Clearly that means more wars, just based on the mechanics, but stuff like the upcoming alliances will be a counterbalance. We'll see if scheming ex-lovers cause the end of civilization, I suppose, once I get my first zombie apocalypse rolling. I do have to be careful in general, since a world gen that just ends all life on the planet is not exactly a playable world. At least it shouldn't be the default! And as with some of the other unbalanced parts of world gen, it might be the end state of all worlds now if necromantic secrets always arise; they just need to succeed one time, while the living need to win each war. Will continue to test and ponder as we go. But yeah, you might start more often in an atypical war now, due to the specific historical situation.
Post by: MrWiggles on May 01, 2019, 06:40:34 am
According to the Kitfox discord, the Premium version wont be different, beside a tileset and steam workshop intergration. Though the mods will work across any version. The soundtrack will be in all versions.No. The Premium version (Steam AND Itch.io) should have a soundtrack as well as the tileset, while the Steam version seems to get Steam Achievements on top of that. Shonai_Dweller's question is quite relevant, as it IS unclear both if a tutorial type thing is going to be produced, and whether it's going to be available in all DF versions, Premium, or Steam only if it appears.Is the tutorial you've been thinking of (PC Gamer) likely to be an addition for the paid version of DF like the tileset and music, or is this something for the game in general? (I know the tutorial-by-acheivement idea would have to be Steam only, just meaning the regular 'how to build stuff, restore your woodcutter's arms' parts).The Steam version isnt getting anything special beside the tileset. And the tileset just comes bundle with the steam version. The speical work going in for the tileset, will be open to any future tileset.
The underlying mechanics changes (whatever they end up being) are intended to be available to all DF versions (as stated), if I understand it correctly, so tileset artists should be able to create sets making use of those mechanics. This probably means only the Premium version will have a tileset at release, while community tilesets will play catch-up (as it's always been).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 01, 2019, 06:53:31 am
Well, Toady just confirmed, but thanks anyhow.According to the Kitfox discord, the Premium version wont be different, beside a tileset and steam workshop intergration. Though the mods will work across any version. The soundtrack will be in all versions.No. The Premium version (Steam AND Itch.io) should have a soundtrack as well as the tileset, while the Steam version seems to get Steam Achievements on top of that. Shonai_Dweller's question is quite relevant, as it IS unclear both if a tutorial type thing is going to be produced, and whether it's going to be available in all DF versions, Premium, or Steam only if it appears.Is the tutorial you've been thinking of (PC Gamer) likely to be an addition for the paid version of DF like the tileset and music, or is this something for the game in general? (I know the tutorial-by-acheivement idea would have to be Steam only, just meaning the regular 'how to build stuff, restore your woodcutter's arms' parts).The Steam version isnt getting anything special beside the tileset. And the tileset just comes bundle with the steam version. The speical work going in for the tileset, will be open to any future tileset.
The underlying mechanics changes (whatever they end up being) are intended to be available to all DF versions (as stated), if I understand it correctly, so tileset artists should be able to create sets making use of those mechanics. This probably means only the Premium version will have a tileset at release, while community tilesets will play catch-up (as it's always been).
Wait, where did they say the soundtrack was for all versions?
From Patreon:
Quote
"When the Steam version is released, people that choose to pick it up will get the new graphical tiles, new music and audio, as well as Steam Workshop integration. "
Post by: clinodev on May 02, 2019, 12:54:50 am
According to the Kitfox discord, the Premium version wont be different, beside a tileset and steam workshop intergration. Though the mods will work across any version. The soundtrack will be in all versions.
I spend an awful lot of time on the Kitfox Discord, and I've missed anything intentionally like that.
I suspect whoever gave you that impression simply wasn't thinking about the soundtrack. I find it hardly gets discussed at all.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 02, 2019, 01:02:50 am
Probably mistook a question about music and audio functionality. That at least will be in all versions, same as the graphics functionality. The new tileset and music are being made by people paid by Kitfox in order to sell on Steam and Itch.io. No reason to think otherwise at this point.According to the Kitfox discord, the Premium version wont be different, beside a tileset and steam workshop intergration. Though the mods will work across any version. The soundtrack will be in all versions.
I spend an awful lot of time on the Kitfox Discord, and I've missed anything intentionally like that.
I suspect whoever gave you that impression simply wasn't thinking about the soundtrack. I find it hardly gets discussed at all.
Post by: Toady One on May 02, 2019, 01:46:46 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 02, 2019, 02:16:32 am
(Yeah, Steam/itch get the new audio tracks and other distributed sound files. All versions get the ability to play music and sounds, using whatever unified system it ends up being, though it'll be up to modders to do anything beyond my original guitar tracks.)The great Simon Swerwer will fill the gap quite easily, I expect.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 02, 2019, 04:20:59 am
Spoiler: "Toady Reply" (click to show/hide)
Very nice, i would hope some alliances would also make the game less bumpy for the typically weak nations to not get rolled over by the largest (which are usually hyper zealous elves) and give me some time to build a under-floor trapdoor to dispose of begging diplomats bringing menu message spam.
Do you think more investment into active diplomacy would break the cycles of DF that any small hitch in the working relationships of your fortress and outside civs eventually leads to a conflict without resolution?
To kind of add, gifting artifacts to my knowledge is meant to smooth things over as are demanding them but usually there's only really a few out of probably many (when you have a set of 10 therabouts) that other civs actually covet. Once you start a war often by accident of bugs without meaning to strain your relationship the only REAL resolution is to prepare to kill the entire population of the enemy which is often unfeasable.
Im aware of it being a abstact concept, but do you have any kind of view on making DF's war & politics more 'game' like for accessibility-(concepts like 'War Score' for instance to determine after how many raids, battles and razings the war's direction is going to pressure diplomatic action like surrender and peace) -or will the game always have other civs or 'actors' as it were in the abstract?
The breakdown and very scatty diplomacy breaks many wars this way, which are status quo because the relevant people are offsite or dead already and they won't quit, i think i had a near extinct human civ once battle a large elf nation for 200 years because they retreated (or bandits did) into the caves where they wouldn't be found once, that was a wierd world save (I've lost it now anyway).
Post by: Egan_BW on May 02, 2019, 04:30:27 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 02, 2019, 05:31:42 am
Given that you're having music made for the steam version, does that mean that we shouldn't expect you to ever record more songs for the vanilla version?Post version 1 retirement plan perhaps, write less code, play more guitar?
"Ever" is a long time. :)
Post by: zakarum on May 02, 2019, 07:20:41 am
I disagree that the forums are or can become a walled garden. They are completely free and you don't even need an account to see links. But I understand how the biggest leap was the decision to go to Steam and the Workshop might seem like just a bonus feature - here's hoping it doesn't become a walled garden, or that at least the "Steam workshop downloader" site(s) work.
I also do understand that the FotF format is one of the few things keeping it alive and I can't really think of any suggestions that could solve the pitfalls of the current system. I do see it growing so much over time that at some point you will have to define a number of questions you are answering then making a lottery out of it.
Post by: Death Dragon on May 02, 2019, 09:54:58 pm
https://music.wixstatic.com/preview/62c446_df53752b07644de9841842bc4fcd153a-128.mp3
Seems nice for an ambient track, but I hope there willl also be some more exciting flamenco themed music in there. Maybe as combat music?
The great Simon Swerwer will fill the gap quite easily, I expect.Swerwer is gonna be impossible to beat.
I disagree that the forums are or can become a walled garden. They are completely free and you don't even need an account to see links. But I understand how the biggest leap was the decision to go to Steam and the Workshop might seem like just a bonus feature - here's hoping it doesn't become a walled garden, or that at least the "Steam workshop downloader" site(s) work.My problem with steam workshop is that, as far as I know, you can't upload mods for games that you don't own on steam. You actually can't even post COMMENTS on mods for games that you don't own on steam for some weird reason. It's very likely to become the place to be for DF mods, meaning if you want your mod to become popular, you'll probably need to buy the game on steam (instead of itch.io).
And yeah, the other problem is that non-steam users will have to use some weird, inofficial steam workshop downloading site to get the mods.
Steam workshop is great in principle, but man, I wish Valve wouldn't use it as a way to screw over their competition.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 02, 2019, 10:14:51 pm
If for some reason it's a mod that a modder doesn't want the entire community to use, discuss and therefore have any chance of being becoming popular, it's probably not worth downloading in the first place.
Post by: Death Dragon on May 03, 2019, 02:42:20 am
Using one of those workshop downloader sites is a lot easier, but they don't always function.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 03, 2019, 03:29:54 am
How would you even contact the modder? You'd have to hope that they accept steam friend requests from strangers. And even then, they'd have to reupload the mod whenever it gets updated.Post a comment. Steam has comments.
Using one of those workshop downloader sites is a lot easier, but they don't always function.
Well, whatever. If people insist on locking their mods away from the community which actually plays them, there's not much you can do about it. Kind of weird way to get your mod seen, but there you go. Most will no doubt stick to the mods made by experienced modders anyway.
And it's not like people are going to be teaching others how to mod on the Steam forum. All of that support is right here.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 03, 2019, 04:25:22 am
And it's not like people are going to be teaching others how to mod on the Steam forum. All of that support is right here.
Depending on how its implemented, a guide on how to mod might be nessecary to put some control into first time players approaching through the medium of ASCII being a little bit heavy (without using starting packs) and to revert + alter changes to the mods that they are playing if they suddenly find a issue where they need to reset because of flawed or overlapping raws but don't want to lose savefiles not stored on cloud etc.
Simple things like pointing out the right directories, and the differences + syntax of the file types; I think mods for world presets to add to advanced generation will be VERY popular however besides from full content overhauls/re-writes like the Masterwork mod, smaller mods i dont think will draw a lot of traction like the forums but that's my reserved opinion.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 03, 2019, 05:14:29 am
Just using Crusader Kings as an example. Modding is discussed and has a guide on the official forums. Dwarf Fortress has a wiki and the official forums. I don't think anybody is going to need more help beyond a link to both. A guide just for people who can't use a computer and don't know how to exit Steam isn't necessary.And it's not like people are going to be teaching others how to mod on the Steam forum. All of that support is right here.
Depending on how its implemented, a guide on how to mod might be nessecary to put some control into first time players approaching through the medium of ASCII being a little bit heavy (without using starting packs) and to revert + alter changes to the mods that they are playing if they suddenly find a issue where they need to reset because of flawed or overlapping raws but don't want to lose savefiles not stored on cloud etc.
Simple things like pointing out the right directories, and the differences + syntax of the file types; I think mods for world presets to add to advanced generation will be VERY popular however besides from full content overhauls/re-writes like the Masterwork mod, smaller mods i dont think will draw a lot of traction like the forums but that's my reserved opinion.
Post by: therahedwig on May 03, 2019, 09:23:02 am
Post by: Bumber on May 03, 2019, 12:18:58 pm
Post by: Rose on May 03, 2019, 01:00:58 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 03, 2019, 06:20:46 pm
Or just only maintain the mods on the forum.Steam workshop is one of the selling points. For casual users, it's fantastic. Click and you're in dinosaur world. Click and you're back at vanilla.
Post by: iceball3 on May 04, 2019, 01:10:46 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 04, 2019, 01:40:28 am
Mods are pretty plug-and-play as it is, yeah? Worlds even save their own copies of the raws so you can relentlessly change stuff and make new worlds with it without obliterating old saves in the process.The large number of people on various forums excited about "finally being able to use mods" would suggest that the current system isn't as plug and play as we might perceive it to be.
A lot of people are put off by concepts which are second nature to most of us who have used computers for many years. Editing a text file, copying a tileset into a folder, copying a set of mod files into the DF folder. All of these things are completely foreign to the audience Steam release is trying to reach. They want to click "add dinosaurs" and play with dinosaurs, then click once more to remove dinosaurs. And if they can't do that, a thousand other games on Steam which don't require leaving their comfort zone beckon.
But, yes, mods are just text files copy them some place and you can use them whatever platform you're on. It'd be trivial for non-Steam users to get hold of any mod they want. Better for new modders to learn that there's a place where the whole community can access their mods and put up a version at DFFD themselves, even if it's up to a fan of that mod to keep it updated with the latest Workshop version.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 04, 2019, 03:14:23 am
But, yes, mods are just text files copy them some place and you can use them whatever platform you're on. It'd be trivial for non-Steam users to get hold of any mod they want. Better for new modders to learn that there's a place where the whole community can access their mods and put up a version at DFFD themselves, even if it's up to a fan of that mod to keep it updated with the latest Workshop version.
I've spent more time writing my own code for RAW's in stuff i could but haven't released at all simply because its either not as polished as id like and i don't really want to be responsible for maintaining it outside of my own comfortable use, other mod distributors also use sometimes annoying formats like compact it into RAR files, most people have them but others can't be bothered to open it compared to just downloading a zipped folder. (and other mediums)
- Steams subscription and prescribed modding changes would make a lot of difference to automatically apply mods without getting hands dirty, i also wonder how hard or easy it will be to actually get into the steam-DF's RAW's without a change in UI and profile management compared to the desktop version which is as easy as copy and repeating its file over and over or right clicking a shortcut : CDDA like Mod Manager Utility?.
Post by: Schmaven on May 04, 2019, 04:25:14 am
I too want as many people as possible to enjoy Dwarf Fortress at least as much as I do. And I agree that some would be put off by the current steps required to add a mod. I just don't think it's going to be a statistically significant number of people who fall into that category. But it certainly could be.
I suppose given that the steam release is going to have graphics, and more music in addition to just being a fun game in general; the group most likely to be adversely affected by adding mods on top of this will be the modders themselves who want their mods to get more exposure with the steam player base.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 05, 2019, 02:29:37 am
The Lazy Newb Pack is about as easy as it gets for using the mods / various graphics included with it. However, if someone wants to create a mod, but doesn't want to learn how to use a computer a little more than normal, they are being quite unrealistic in their expectations. The steam release looks like it's going to be amazing as is, unmodded. So the need for casual style gamers to add mods, with no interest in learning how to copy and paste, would hardly ever arise.
I too want as many people as possible to enjoy Dwarf Fortress at least as much as I do. And I agree that some would be put off by the current steps required to add a mod. I just don't think it's going to be a statistically significant number of people who fall into that category. But it certainly could be.
I suppose given that the steam release is going to have graphics, and more music in addition to just being a fun game in general; the group most likely to be adversely affected by adding mods on top of this will be the modders themselves who want their mods to get more exposure with the steam player base.
mmm, elitism
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 05, 2019, 03:14:38 am
The Lazy Newb Pack is about as easy as it gets for using the mods / various graphics included with it. However, if someone wants to create a mod, but doesn't want to learn how to use a computer a little more than normal, they are being quite unrealistic in their expectations. The steam release looks like it's going to be amazing as is, unmodded. So the need for casual style gamers to add mods, with no interest in learning how to copy and paste, would hardly ever arise.I suggest you hang out at some other forums for a while. The myth that dwarf fortress requires mods to be playable is still highly prevailant (however wrong). The opinion that Steam Workshop will therefore make Dwarf Fortress a playable game and therefore something people want to buy is being spouted at a regular rate.
I too want as many people as possible to enjoy Dwarf Fortress at least as much as I do. And I agree that some would be put off by the current steps required to add a mod. I just don't think it's going to be a statistically significant number of people who fall into that category. But it certainly could be.
I suppose given that the steam release is going to have graphics, and more music in addition to just being a fun game in general; the group most likely to be adversely affected by adding mods on top of this will be the modders themselves who want their mods to get more exposure with the steam player base.
You can't just ignore that, say tough luck, learn to love copy-paste, anyone who can't shouldn't play my game, and then expect to make money from releasing on Steam (the whole point).
Steam Workshop is happening. Would be mad for it to not. But it only becomes a problem if people go exclusively Steam workshop to release their mods (besides premium tileset adaptations which will have to be locked).
If the place to learn about modding is here, the wiki and Reddit and this is made known and mentioned regularly, and if the forums continue to welcome new modders, this wont ever become a problem as people will already be part of the community.
Makes no sense to block your mod off from half the community. Except if you don't know it's there.
Post by: Schmaven on May 05, 2019, 05:11:26 am
My only concerns are that the steps required for adding mods to the steam version will be too numerous for someone to follow. Or that the steam version will not allow certain really cool mods in (like Masterwork) - thereby forcing someone off the steam platform to play it.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 05, 2019, 05:38:50 am
As long as there are clear instructions available for each step of adding the mods in question, I don't think there's anything to worry about.Toady's not about to spend months on improving accessibility in order to sell a game with Steam Workshop access only to have it more complex than "click, mod on, click mod off" like every other game on Steam.
My only concerns are that the steps required for adding mods to the steam version will be too numerous for someone to follow. Or that the steam version will not allow certain really cool mods in (like Masterwork) - thereby forcing someone off the steam platform to play it.
Especially not with people like Meph on the team who knows exactly what changes the game/file structure needs (if any) to be able to add Masterwork at a click.
Post by: therahedwig on May 05, 2019, 07:33:52 am
As for the rest, just encourage modders to post on both places. Modders need to learn how to mod, so they'll find the modding subforum quickly enough. And you can just point out that, hey, there's people who cannot afford the steam version, so it'd be cool if mods are made available to them too. And the game is going to come out on itch.io too, which doesn't have a modding thingymabob.
Post by: Bumber on May 05, 2019, 12:51:04 pm
Or that the steam version will not allow certain really cool mods in (like Masterwork) - thereby forcing someone off the steam platform to play it.I'm pretty sure you can still manually install mods in the Steam\SteamApps\common\ directory.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on May 05, 2019, 12:59:42 pm
I'm pretty sure you can still manually install mods in the Steam\SteamApps\common\ directory.
Yes, yes you can. Speaking from experience with Rimworld mods from non-Workshop sources. The only difference I can think of would be that a number of mods from DFFD wouldn't use the tileset of the Steam version. At least at first.
Post by: Death Dragon on May 05, 2019, 10:56:03 pm
https://kakebytes.com/2019/05/02/ep-25-dwarf-fortress-toady-one-returns/
Post a comment. Steam has comments.You mean on their profile? I guess that works when they don't have comments turned off or their profile set to private.
An ingame mod browser from which you could download and install mods on any version of the game would be ideal, but that's more resources being spent on something that steam kinda already does, so probably not going to happen.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 05, 2019, 11:24:34 pm
There was another interview with Toady here:Wait, Workshop doesn't have a comments function? Huh, must have imagined it.
https://kakebytes.com/2019/05/02/ep-25-dwarf-fortress-toady-one-returns/Post a comment. Steam has comments.You mean on their profile? I guess that works when they don't have comments turned off or their profile set to private.
Well, that's even better then, no chance of the "gated garden wall of hell" segregated community forming where you can't actually talk about what's being posted.
Post by: KittyTac on May 05, 2019, 11:30:33 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on May 05, 2019, 11:52:08 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on May 06, 2019, 12:22:57 am
A while ago I wanted to tell someone that their Stellaris mod wasn't working, but I couldn't tell him because I was family sharing the game and not allowed ot post comments. Thanks Valve.
Another interview:
http://www.indiehangover.com/interview-tarn-adams-of-bay-12-games/
I remember hearing about an audio interview that was done with toady during last GDC (not by PCGamer), does anyone know which one that could be?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 06, 2019, 12:36:39 am
I said it in my post further up, workshop items do have comments, BUT you can't post comments on workshop items if you don't own the game they are for on steam. Even if you "sorta" own a game through the steam family share feature, you still can't post comments on workshop items.Why do you think none of the community would own Dwarf Fortress on Steam? I imagine at least half of us are going to buy it.
I wasn't talking about one person begging for a mod to be posted at DFFD, I was talking about a group effort (not too much) to let people know that posting a copy of a mod where everyone can enjoy it, is much appreciated and healthy for the community as a whole.
Post by: Death Dragon on May 06, 2019, 12:55:55 am
Why do you think none of the community would own Dwarf Fortress on Steam? I imagine at least half of us are going to buy it.I was talking about individual people from the beginning:
I wasn't talking about one person begging for a mod to be posted at DFFD, I was talking about a group effort (not too much) to let people know that posting a copy of a mod where everyone can enjoy it, is much appreciated and healthy for the community as a whole.
"And yeah, the other problem is that non-steam users will have to use some weird, inofficial steam workshop downloading site to get the mods."
I was just listing some negative aspects of the steam workshop and one of them is that people who buy the game on Itch will either have to use a steam workshop downloading site to get mods or beg for them. It's a pretty big downside to buying games outside steam, if you ask me.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 06, 2019, 01:04:15 am
And if people share their mods, and it's established that sharing mods is a good thing, it's no problem. Unless for some reason there's a mod that someone is deliberately not wanting to share. Which generally isn't a mod worth getting.Why do you think none of the community would own Dwarf Fortress on Steam? I imagine at least half of us are going to buy it.I was talking about individual people from the beginning:
I wasn't talking about one person begging for a mod to be posted at DFFD, I was talking about a group effort (not too much) to let people know that posting a copy of a mod where everyone can enjoy it, is much appreciated and healthy for the community as a whole.
"And yeah, the other problem is that non-steam users will have to use some weird, inofficial steam workshop downloading site to get the mods."
I was just listing some negative aspects of the steam workshop and one of them is that people who buy the game on Itch will either have to use a steam workshop downloading site to get mods or beg for them. It's a pretty big downside to buying games outside steam, if you ask me.
I am worried that itch.io users are going to miss out on mods which adapt the tileset they bought, because they're all locked in Steam (I know Meph is already planning one for Masterwork). That's an issue Kitfox will need to solve at some point. Perhaps just a tag which checks if the premium tileset exists in the users folder would work.
Post by: Putnam on May 06, 2019, 05:54:38 am
Mods are pretty plug-and-play as it is, yeah? Worlds even save their own copies of the raws so you can relentlessly change stuff and make new worlds with it without obliterating old saves in the process.
if two mods add reactions to dwarves then they are fundamentally incompatible with each other without manually finding the changes they make and merging them
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 06, 2019, 08:21:51 am
Mods are pretty plug-and-play as it is, yeah? Worlds even save their own copies of the raws so you can relentlessly change stuff and make new worlds with it without obliterating old saves in the process.
if two mods add reactions to dwarves then they are fundamentally incompatible with each other without manually finding the changes they make and merging them
This exactly is why a steam port might need to have a compiler to remotely check the fluidity and block faulty attempts or easy access to the raws to fix such a thing which should refer the player back to the forums, wiki or steam guide pages to seek advice.
I guess actual gameplay guides such as 'building your first windmill farm', getting to grips with minecarts etc might serve to be more popular.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 06, 2019, 08:35:05 am
Is that what other games on Steam do?Mods are pretty plug-and-play as it is, yeah? Worlds even save their own copies of the raws so you can relentlessly change stuff and make new worlds with it without obliterating old saves in the process.
if two mods add reactions to dwarves then they are fundamentally incompatible with each other without manually finding the changes they make and merging them
This exactly is why a steam port might need to have a compiler to remotely check the fluidity and block faulty attempts or easy access to the raws to fix such a thing which should refer the player back to the forums, wiki or steam guide pages to seek advice.
CKII Workshop mods just seen to contain descriptions on what compatibility issues a mod may cause. It's more work for the modder to add that info, sure but seems to work.
Easy access to the raws is a given, it's still Dwarf Fortress. Steam users aren't getting a cut-down version. And, yes, links to the forums and wiki from Steam page for modding (and any other) advice would be a good step.
Post by: voliol on May 06, 2019, 10:53:21 am
This discussion is getting quite lengthy, and has few questions to Toady in it. Should it maybe be moved to its own thread?
Post by: Bumber on May 06, 2019, 01:43:28 pm
I am worried that itch.io users are going to miss out on mods which adapt the tileset they bought, because they're all locked in Steam (I know Meph is already planning one for Masterwork). That's an issue Kitfox will need to solve at some point. Perhaps just a tag which checks if the premium tileset exists in the users folder would work.Just forbid the distribution of unmodified premium assets. The way tilesets are implemented is probably going to change with all the new functionality, so each tile might end up in a separate file. Using the mod would end up with a tile that doesn't match all your other tiles.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 06, 2019, 02:38:27 pm
I am worried that itch.io users are going to miss out on mods which adapt the tileset they bought, because they're all locked in Steam (I know Meph is already planning one for Masterwork). That's an issue Kitfox will need to solve at some point. Perhaps just a tag which checks if the premium tileset exists in the users folder would work.Just forbid the distribution of unmodified premium assets. The way tilesets are implemented is probably going to change with all the new functionality, so each tile might end up in a separate file. Using the mod would end up with a tile that doesn't match all your other tiles.
Quality control over mods via use of forums moderators could greenlight to get around this non-premium content distinction, i don't mean to be rude but it'd be a bit cheeky if Meph added Masterwork on as DLC (though for nessecity of being paid to do the spriting and possibly added sheen by Toady, i don't know know, then it'd really just be a art-pack)
The most popular content from the forums is likely to be the first thing people download for their steam edition anyway besides what they can organise themselves.
This discussion is getting quite lengthy, and has few questions to Toady in it. Should it maybe be moved to its own thread?
Yes i think it probably should
Its odd and im sure someone can pick up a similar question asked previously, would you ever support DLC for the steam version collaboratively as a 'add on' or 'technical polishing' of a mod?
To provide a example, a popular mod like Masterwork utilises elements of the game through DFhack to incur the desired effect by reusing game assets or mechanics exploitatively on script command (teleportation etc), if you were to code over these, it would constitute besides what assets the mod creator can bring themselves like sprites to creating a premium package.
Post by: Putnam on May 08, 2019, 05:42:55 am
Mods are pretty plug-and-play as it is, yeah? Worlds even save their own copies of the raws so you can relentlessly change stuff and make new worlds with it without obliterating old saves in the process.
if two mods add reactions to dwarves then they are fundamentally incompatible with each other without manually finding the changes they make and merging them
This exactly is why a steam port might need to have a compiler to remotely check the fluidity and block faulty attempts or easy access to the raws to fix such a thing which should refer the player back to the forums, wiki or steam guide pages to seek advice.
I guess actual gameplay guides such as 'building your first windmill farm', getting to grips with minecarts etc might serve to be more popular.
game already has a compiler for the raws by any reasonable definition of compiler, it just doesn't support patching/overwriting/whatever of existing raw objects, instead just spitting out a "duplicate raw" error and going crazy
Post by: Inarius on May 09, 2019, 01:41:10 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 09, 2019, 02:16:33 am
" There are bugs to wrangle - sometimes they take off and join performance troupes.". Dwarf Fortress bugs are always the best.I think Toady meant the the sapient zombies join troupes, although those are certainly buggy enough for bugs to have joined them :P
Regarding the latest dev log: It's an interesting "preview" of sphere influence logic to allow necro towers to change the evilness of their surroundings. Are you planning any counters to this (e.g. razing or conquering a necro tower causing the evilness to dissipate and the world tiles to gradually return to their base state) to avoid a gradual decay of the world into complete evilness as necro towers are created and stomped out?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 09, 2019, 04:07:51 am
Opening the map and discovering you're now the one good square in a sea of evilness is kind of fun too, I guess...
Post by: ZM5 on May 09, 2019, 05:05:18 am
Post by: voliol on May 09, 2019, 05:16:08 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 09, 2019, 05:18:31 am
Regarding the newest devlog's mention of regions slowly becoming evil due to necromancer influence, will that be a hardcoded thing linked to towers or will that be more linked towards the caster type itself, so that modders could make the region become good over time instead?Ooh, I can just imagine the weird worlds I could get if my elven forest retreats were generating goodness while the dark elf sites are generating evilness and some tribe of monkeypeople are generating savagery all at the same time.
No room for poor old dorfs, but never mind about them. ;)
Post by: therahedwig on May 09, 2019, 05:58:11 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 09, 2019, 07:08:38 am
Quote
Since the abilities of a necromancer become the abilities of the player generally when they become a necromancer themselves, will we be able to raise our companions and important NPC's as intelligent zombies if they die?
A comparison i guess can be drawn from is the 'RPG Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic' where a specific skill branch of magic could allow you to speak to dead characters (killed by yourself or others) with lots of custom NPC lines arranged for that occasion. I wonder if revived zombies will be more talkative with you in death than they were life about sensitive subjects.
- On a whole other note, hamlets took over by the player inhabited entirely with the undead are probably a end result, spooky hamlets in range of towers i hope get a inclusion (which is also a talked about devlog/devchat thing)
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 09, 2019, 07:23:04 am
I believe the current version of the game has a version of this logic already, civs taming Savage world tiles during world gen history (I don't know if it's active in game play).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 09, 2019, 07:45:09 am
@Shonai_Dweller: It wouldn't be hard to write a DFHack script that produced Savagery and/or Evilness spreading (towards either end, as well as any other point on the scales [a bit like value influencing books, but with a yearly {or monthly/weekly...} effect]).Yeah, I'll move on to DFhack scripts when I need to. This is probably something that would push me over to learning about DFhack. It fits my world's behaviour well.
I believe the current version of the game has a version of this logic already, civs taming Savage world tiles during world gen history (I don't know if it's active in game play).
I guess elves spreading savagery would also make a lot of sense. More giant animals to kick demon's heads in.
Post by: Hapchazzard on May 09, 2019, 08:49:18 am
2. Will characters with a vendetta against a villain be able to offer to join your party if they find out you're directly fighting said villain?
3. Will villains be able to send agents to try and infiltrate the player's party itself, for example by pretending to be a bereaved party seeking revenge (like in 2.)
4. Similar to 3, will villains be able to try and sow discord within an entity by pitting important members against each other through false evidence and slander, up to and including the player's party?
5. Will agents of villains be able to stalk the party, interrogate people that the party has talked to for info, etc.
6. Will 'disposable pawns' be a thing for sufficiently ruthless villains? e.g. tying up loose ends by killing low-level members that have fulfilled their purpose if they know too much, setting up low-level members to take the fall for a crime, etc.
7. Will the villains do petty, not-entirely-rational villainous actions if they're particularly vicious, arbitrary and it aligns with their personality in general? By this, I mean things like:
a) Killing subordinates for minor or imagined slights, perceived failure in their duties, or if they're unhinged enough, just for the heck of it
b) Dolling out disproportionate retribution to entities that have cooperated with their enemies, like butchering and burning down an entire village just because some peasant in it let the heroic adventurers stay overnight
c) Making a spectacle out of eliminating their enemies, e.g. publicly parading and then executing them, intentionally assassinating them in a brutal fashion in public, killing them in front of friends and loved ones (if said friends and loved ones are also prisoners, but also possibly keeping hostages around just to do this later if the villain expects a direct confrontation in the near future)
d) Destroying artifacts of sentimental value to their foes, if said artifact isn't too useful to them, or even destroying highly useful artifacts out of spite if they feel that their loss is imminent
Post by: voliol on May 09, 2019, 09:17:09 am
I wonder if revived zombies will be more talkative with you in death than they were life about sensitive subjects.
Hopefully the dead you raise have some increased trust/respect/loyalty for you, in which case that should act towards making them more talkative.
Post by: Bumber on May 09, 2019, 01:25:42 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on May 09, 2019, 02:39:12 pm
2. Will we have the same zombie caps as adventure-mode necromancers?
3. Will we be able to get stone to build proper necromancer towers and expand our zombie caps?
4. Will we be able to integrate zombies into our dwarf forts and set a "zombie policy" for resident necromancers to follow?
5. Will we be able to push back the evil regions spreading out from towers?
6. Will the evil regions spread from towers also have evil weather and blanket re-animation effects, or will it just be a normal region with zombies?
Personally, one advantage of the old system (DF2010) was that there wasn't an un-counterable blanket re-animation effect from the biome, and there wasn't say, evil rain that made a mess of the map. The zombies and skeletons coming in from the side was just great. The gloom clouds are another matter - I really liked that addition.
Post by: Silverybearded on May 09, 2019, 04:02:59 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 09, 2019, 04:26:10 pm
Personally, I'm just wondering why zombies going AWOL and joining performance troupes is considered a bug.
It'd assume that the necromancer asked them to, because even immortal beings of immense evil enjoy a good show.
Spoiler: "Spooky Musician Inside" (click to show/hide)
Post by: therahedwig on May 09, 2019, 06:04:58 pm
Personally, I'm just wondering why zombies going AWOL and joining performance troupes is considered a bug.
It might get a little less funny once all necromancers' schemes flounder because they don't have any intelligent lieutenants :p
Mind you, I think everyone seems to agree that a lieutenant whose necromancing boss is unable to give orders(or just uninterested) should get a bit more agency in how they fill in their day... If only because a zombie running about trying to hatch an escape plan for their captured master while moonlighting as a bard seems pretty interested :p
Post by: iceball3 on May 09, 2019, 06:10:02 pm
After a few years trawling through DF's raws, i noticed that a quite a few values seem to be set as placeholder or default values. For example:
-The attack-recover period of all weapons and almost all natural attacks (excluding kicks)
-The force multiplier of natural attacks
-The bodily-material toughness and thickness of everything made of flesh and bone, particularly concerning the lack of differences between beasts of drastic size difference (this may just be intended outright)
-The lack of differences in base stat attributes between beasts
-Plant thread and various other flexible materials fracturing with little bending or impact force, in particular, they seem to have various of both yields and fractures set as low as 10,000 in many cases.
My question is just thus, in your opinion, are these values:
-Intended to be as they are, as the role they serve is vague and combat calculations mysterious enough that they work good enough as is?
-Placeholders for an eventual material and physics detail rework?
-Left at values that work well enough, specifically so the modding community and contributors can refine the values for full conversion mods or otherwise general contributions?
or
-Some other intention?
There are quite a few things I know that -are- planned that would largely change the balance of materials, which is why I figure that a lot of the values acting as placeholders for the time being would make sense, like the multi-material-weapons feature and so forth.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 10, 2019, 03:14:13 am
Due to the way the DF data is structured, it's easy to spread Evilness/Savagery/Salinity... properties, because they're all stored on a world tile level. The regional interactions (with reanimation being one interaction effect), however, are tied to the regions rather than the world tiles that are part of those regions, so tying it to world tiles would require a restructuring of the data, which I suspect will be done as part of the Myth&Magic map rewrite. Flora and fauna is likewise tied to the region rather than tile level, and would require additional checks to exclude e.g. Evil plants from the non evil parts of a region if those plants were added to the region (there's probably something similar in place currently to ensure Temperate/Tropical and Savagery matching, so it might be easy to just add an Evilness checks to it).
:
6. Will the evil regions spread from towers also have evil weather and blanket re-animation effects, or will it just be a normal region with zombies?
:
Post by: iceball3 on May 10, 2019, 03:51:11 am
Not that it's too important at the moment: animals don't really thirst or hunger, let alone experience saltiness.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 10, 2019, 07:52:58 am
Does this mean that salt vs fresh water preferring animals don't actually check regional salinity or am I missing something?Salinity is the other basic parameter (besides Evilness) that lies outside of PSV control. I believe the whole region has the same general Salinity level (but I haven't checked) in the same way the whole region currently has the same general Evilness level. With such a logic the check happens at the allocation of the flora and fauna to the region: in the case of Salinity it controls the biome where the Salinity makes a difference ([fresh/salt water swamp/marsh/lake/river] and the biome defines the base set of flora/fauna from which the actual set is drawn from), and in the case of Evilness the level controls whether Evil/Good flora and fauna gets added to the set drawn from.
Not that it's too important at the moment: animals don't really thirst or hunger, let alone experience saltiness.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 10, 2019, 09:56:37 am
Does this mean that salt vs fresh water preferring animals don't actually check regional salinity or am I missing something?Salinity is the other basic parameter (besides Evilness) that lies outside of PSV control. I believe the whole region has the same general Salinity level (but I haven't checked) in the same way the whole region currently has the same general Evilness level. With such a logic the check happens at the allocation of the flora and fauna to the region: in the case of Salinity it controls the biome where the Salinity makes a difference ([fresh/salt water swamp/marsh/lake/river] and the biome defines the base set of flora/fauna from which the actual set is drawn from), and in the case of Evilness the level controls whether Evil/Good flora and fauna gets added to the set drawn from.
Not that it's too important at the moment: animals don't really thirst or hunger, let alone experience saltiness.
Don't forget temperature or season either, a apocalpytic event that overwrites the weather such as the sun blotting out (lets say its a vampire's cult's fault) for pernament winter and biome conditions could be catastrophic in sending away animals entirely and shifting jungles into taiga, causing tree & plant die-off's.
I wonder how dynamic the new evil sprawl will be, a case that a pre-existing evil patch of land with creatures inhabiting it will suddenly population boom from the expanded space appropriate to their breeding cycles (LOTS of beak-dogs over marshy default world generation) or will creatures spontanously appear when the biome is changed?
Post by: KittyTac on May 10, 2019, 10:00:51 am
Post by: Eric Blank on May 10, 2019, 10:39:05 am
It matters to me specifically because I have mods with multiple secrets with reanimations, but I didn't want all of them to be aggressive world-conquerers or even necessarily villains in the first place.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 10, 2019, 11:30:53 am
If you wanted to ask Toady whether flora/fauna would be influenced by Evilness you'd want to Toady color the question.
@KittyTac: There will be several sliders, and strength of magic as well as how common it is are probably candidates for these controls.
@Eric Blank: As far as I understand necromancers aren't all after world conquest. Some ought to be content with reaching the goal of surpassing their mortality, while others may be "scholars", content with sitting in their towers to do research (possibly with some forays into graveyards to gather more research material). However, it's those that make a (foul) mark on the world that are written into the history books...
The secrets themselves don't have any agenda, as far as I understand, although the power may well tempt many of them down a slippery slope. However, I don't think there's anything that makes using the secrets morally permissible by any civs as it currently stands, so shunning, persecusion, etc. is probably hard to get around.
Post by: therahedwig on May 10, 2019, 01:37:34 pm
@KittyTac: There will be several sliders, and strength of magic as well as how common it is are probably candidates for these controls.Well, up till now there's been talk about tone, randomness and magic/mundane sliders, and there's been talk(pc gamer interview about magic) about how to make sure the magic gen will create fun and interesting worlds by limiting magic, but there hasn't been talk about a slider for how powerful regular joe smoes can become. It's not even evident how feasible that might be, so I think the question still makes sense :)
Quote
@Eric Blank: As far as I understand necromancers aren't all after world conquest. Some ought to be content with reaching the goal of surpassing their mortality, while others may be "scholars", content with sitting in their towers to do research (possibly with some forays into graveyards to gather more research material). However, it's those that make a (foul) mark on the world that are written into the history books...Darn it, now I want histfigs who become anatomy/disection/medicine scholars to also be entangled in necromancer fighting, because those assholes keep stealing all the good bodies!
The secrets themselves don't have any agenda, as far as I understand, although the power may well tempt many of them down a slippery slope. However, I don't think there's anything that makes using the secrets morally permissible by any civs as it currently stands, so shunning, persecusion, etc. is probably hard to get around.
Post by: Miuramir on May 10, 2019, 03:10:32 pm
Will there be a setting for the power of magic? So that in some worlds, wizards would be godlike, in others they would be on par with mundane sentients, and so on.
We know that there will be at least one sort of slider for generating mundane vs. strongly magical worlds / settings. What we don't yet know is how many sliders, and how they would be split up.
In my opinion, to meet the stated design goals there will probably need to be *at least* two sliders; one for "how significant / powerful magic can be" and one for "how common magic is". E.g. the Tolkien legendarium has very powerful magic, but compared to many fantasy settings (especially fantasy games) magic is quite rare. Conversely, an action RPG type setting might have extremely common magic, but it's not capable of changing the world on fundamental levels more than, say, a good firearm could.
A third useful axis IMO would probably be "cost and cost efficiency". In some worlds, the main limitation on magic is that it carries prohibitive costs of various sorts. (This might be mana / energy, selling one's soul, cost of rare / exotic / dangerous / forbidden consumable materials, personal behavior limitations / vows / geasa, or many other things.) In other worlds, mana recharges with a quick rest, components if required are mundane shopping items, etc. Looked at in another way, if your goal is to explode an area ("fireball"), is it more or less efficient to do so with magic than with chemistry / engineering?
Side thought... A setting where magic is moderately common, but at least partially obeys conservation of energy such that a mage has to eat an appropriate amount of extra calories might be amusing, and an excuse for why DF farming is so easy. "Urist McAncientAstronaut is lifting the massive ashlar blocks of the great pyramid project into place with his mind, and is on a 20,000 calorie a day diet..." :)
Hmm... reality check. Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (who despite being huge, is quite dwarfy in many ways) has a training diet (https://www.mensjournal.com/food-drink/thor-bjornsson-diet-what-mountain-eats-his-strongman-training/) of ~6 kg of food a day, with macros of ~850 g protein, ~460 g fats, ~790 g carbs. That's about 3,400 + 4,140 + 3,160 = 10,700 calories. Given a lower tech setting without protein powder and where carbs (bread, beer) are the cheap calorie option, Gaston's "five dozen eggs" a day is actually a reasonable part of a balanced training diet (60 eggs is ~380 g protein, ~320 g fats, ~30 g carbs; ~4,650 calories) for someone "roughly the size of a barge" :)
Post by: falcc on May 10, 2019, 03:36:54 pm
There's a different tile for creatures that swim under the water, there's a sun direction, there is field of view, so: Is it possible, if only in a long-term development sense, to have reflections off of water and/or silvered mirrors?/color]
I was listening to something in the LudoNarraCon talks before yours and was reminded that photorealism can't handle reflections at all. But even when your graphics are a bit more sophisticated, will it ever be possible to 'l'ook at something reflective and have the game know what tiles should be visible in that thing from your own position? Or, could a reflective mirror assembled somewhere add to your adventurer's field of view tiles?I'm just super curious if your kind of graphics have this advantage over non-text games.
Post by: MrWiggles on May 10, 2019, 05:15:56 pm
Post by: Magistrum on May 10, 2019, 06:15:46 pm
Df Ray Traces!Fast InvSqrt()!
Post by: therahedwig on May 10, 2019, 07:42:12 pm
Most of the questions I had have been asked already so here's a random one totally unrelated to the current work.
There's a different tile for creatures that swim under the water, there's a sun direction, there is field of view, so: Is it possible, if only in a long-term development sense, to have reflections off of water and/or silvered mirrors?/color]
-snip- I'm just super curious if your kind of graphics have this advantage over non-text games.
The main thing DF has over high-fidelity games in this case is that the resolution of DF is very low, that is, for once it isn't responsible for calculating as much. So if you play adventure mode, ray casting is already used to determine what you can and cannot see. For mirrors, if a really big mirror(water?) takes up 3 squares horizontally, then for each of those squares a ray should be casted and laws of reflection should be applied, and you can have a reasonably accurate ability to see reflections in the mirror.
While in a modern ray tracer, that calculation needs to happen for each pixel, several hundreds of times(the way raytracing works means that for each pixel a path from the camera to a lightsource needs to be calculated, and to get the a good approximation of behaviour of diffuse surfaces there's a certain amount of 'randomness' in how this path bounces off a surface, meaning that several hundreds if not thousands of these calculations need to be done to get a proper avarage of this 'random' behaviour). For 3d video games, what is often done is that each reflecting object contains a panorama image of the area from its point of view that is then used to simulate reflections. (It is actually kind of sad, the increase in resolution makes high end monitors much more expensive to render for, but people don't always realize that, it's a very common factor in graphics lag)
But like, DF, being tile based shouldn't have to do anywhere near as many calculations, so I think it is feasible.
Besides reflection, are there plans for other vision weirdness things? Darkness is a thing already, but what about refraction/simple distortion or fog?
Post by: golemgunk on May 10, 2019, 09:31:48 pm
I've just always wondered if a necromancer's idea of world domination is anything less than "extinction of all life" and if the living have any place under their rule.
Edit: Additionally, will the death of a necromancer have any affect on their raised undead?
I know it currently doesn't, but it seems apropos for that to change now that the activities of zombies are being considered.
Post by: KittyTac on May 10, 2019, 10:13:56 pm
snipAlso, I'm pretty sure that a weirdness slider has been mentioned. For all your bucketmancy needs.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 10, 2019, 10:24:08 pm
When necromancers attack cities, are they just trying to kill everyone, or do they stop after seizing power?
I've just always wondered if a necromancer's idea of world domination is anything less than "extinction of all life" and if the living have any place under their rule.
I think "end of the world", which is the term Toady has used to describe necromancer domination, would imply an end-goal at least of wiping out all civilized creatures (if not all life in general). Though I guess they could pull a Sauron and just seek to enslave some creatures and wipe out others.
Post by: Pillbo on May 12, 2019, 09:26:30 pm
Personally, I'm just wondering why zombies going AWOL and joining performance troupes is considered a bug.
It'd assume that the necromancer asked them to, because even immortal beings of immense evil enjoy a good show.
It might get a little less funny once all necromancers' schemes flounder because they don't have any intelligent lieutenants :p
Mind you, I think everyone seems to agree that a lieutenant whose necromancing boss is unable to give orders(or just uninterested) should get a bit more agency in how they fill in their day... If only because a zombie running about trying to hatch an escape plan for their captured master while moonlighting as a bard seems pretty interested :p
Intelligent undead running away to follow their dreams just makes sense to me, though it would have to be in moderation. If some amount of the intelligent undead are escaping to live their own lives they could start little undead refugee settlements and all kinds of cool things could happen (persecution from other civs, ghosts joining up, creepy trade caravans, who knows). Maybe intelligent undead could organize a prison break and steal the secrets of life and death from their necromancer- undead raising more of their own intelligent undead in solidarity or to have the numbers to defend themselves. Or even a coup, kill the necromancer and take the tower for themselves. This is working under the assumption that Intelligent Undead != Berserk/Opposed To Life, but they are like reanimated slaves with their own wills somewhere inside.
I sure hope necromancers start doing things like making undead performance troupes for their own entertainment, could have undead barkeeps, and librarians too... basically they could have a whole functional civ of undead and that sounds awesome... Maybe this should be a suggestions thread?
Are you considering allowing any of this 'undead runaway performer' thing to stay?
Do the intelligent undead have their old goals, dreams or preferences or are they clean slates?
Will the undead have any of their own agency or will they act solely under direction? Are they considered Opposed To Life?
Also what happens to an army of intelligent undead when their necromancer is bumped off?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 12, 2019, 10:01:29 pm
Undead siege in first summer? Turtle 'til they go away. Oh so easy....until a couple of seasons later when the butcher's workshop comes to life...
Perhaps post Mythgen.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 12, 2019, 10:10:56 pm
Or do you perhaps have a playtest with Kitfox/others planned? Or even a closed beta?
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on May 13, 2019, 02:20:21 am
1. With the necromancers getting world conquest as a goal. Will other supernatural villains (vampires, werebeasts, and demons) that currently exist be getting similar goals as well? Such as for example a vampire wanting to increase the amount of vampires in the world and/or induct everyone into their associated cult. Or a werebeast getting the idea of turning everyone they can into werebeasts of their type.
1a. Same as above, but will the conventional villains also gain such aspirations? Would it require that their aspiration in life is to rule the world?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 13, 2019, 03:41:45 am
Looking a little further ahead, i.e. at new releases when the Premium version has been released, it might be suitable to make use of the functionality of Beta releases Steam has (I know nothing about Itch.io), although I don't know anything about the process of moving a version from Beta to main version. You don't want to force an auto update of largely broken releases onto regular users.
@EternalCaveDragon: It would be hard for a Were to implement any schemes since the phase where they can spread the curse (i.e. the Were phase) is one where they're completely overcome by rage, and thus unable to implement anything they might have planned. The problem is similar to that of sapient undead who are Opposed to Life (if that's how Toady implements them): the urge overpowers any plans.
Post by: Rubik on May 13, 2019, 06:35:38 am
I had only read 3toe's stories and read the many devplan pages, but I've never decided to listen to them until now.
First, these are some very good content, albeit the many scars made by scamps it must have costed you over the years, these are a blast and very informative
Second. In many talks, specially the 9th one, I think (since that's the one I was listening some hours ago), you mention that you took classes in many areas aside from math. This combined with all the research you do for the different mechanics (also mentioned in the talks) gives a polymath air.
Are there any books you have read on sciences and history that you'd recommend to people, because you found them really good?
Third: Are rogue adventurers(not belonging to any civ) gonna be able to acquire pets and mounts in adventure creation mode?
I kinda wanted to do an eragon mod and this question came to mind
If a sapient does not belong to any civ, which creatures does he have access to?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 13, 2019, 07:23:29 am
Third: Are rogue adventurers(not belonging to any civ) gonna be able to acquire pets and mounts in adventure creation mode?
I kinda wanted to do an eragon mod and this question came to mind
If a sapient does not belong to any civ, which creatures does he have access to?
Im not sure where you're exactly driving from unless we take 'rogue' as to mean A: Morally and ethically ambigious or B: Part of no present civilisation, acting on their own interests.
If its the former, there's never been any restriction before now really on what a player can do, Fortress & Adventurer mode sillyness is written off as possessed insanity. If its the latter thus far you can be a 'outsider' but you'll always have a parent civ as a safety blanket which also allocates the data such as picking out the right data for you and where to appear in the world. So that'll probably not happen until smaller sites/scenarios can justify place with only world links, not explicit civilization links like a exile's hermit tent out in the forest or something, closest you have are monster shrines & caves currently, but even those feel a civ's influence.
To dance around your question a bit, it'll probably revolve around the mechanisms that pets are aquired, either by terms of taming them yourself or not being blacklisted from town merchants for silly antics (possibly hostile civ towns if you want to buy a beakdog on the sly under a false identity) a devlog might clarify in the future if we're lucky to hear more from Toady.
- The answer to your no civ:no animals sapients question is; none, all the data is done by the civ, a creature without the framework is just a singular unit if not just a wilderness creature statistic, though the smallest entity/civ groups can be just one unit depending on what they are, like a army or refugee's from a very underpopulated place.
Post by: LordBaal on May 13, 2019, 07:50:19 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 13, 2019, 12:12:19 pm
What about intelligent undead just wanting to stay regularly dead so they coup the necromancer just to undo the spell and finally rest in peace?
A Mummy is a undead summoner (of sorts, for their tomb), but since the undead are already immortal without a explicit reasoning that lieutenants can raise their own inheriently, killing the necromancer would mean no more zombies and we can assume that without instantly collapsing, they'll just dissapate and still haunt the wilderness populations until they're all exterminated.
Finnicky magic stuff, determining the properties of the spell, what they are and what they do. Threetoe's stories covered a aspect of it, such as the protagonist night creature hunter having the supernatural ability to 'see' the dark energies of his quarry, which were detached but similar to zombies.
Post by: ZM5 on May 13, 2019, 03:35:25 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 13, 2019, 04:35:36 pm
It's a question about outsiders.Third: Are rogue adventurers(not belonging to any civ) gonna be able to acquire pets and mounts in adventure creation mode?
I kinda wanted to do an eragon mod and this question came to mind
If a sapient does not belong to any civ, which creatures does he have access to?
Im not sure where you're exactly driving from unless we take 'rogue' as to mean A: Morally and ethically ambigious or B: Part of no present civilisation, acting on their own interests.
If its the former, there's never been any restriction before now really on what a player can do, Fortress & Adventurer mode sillyness is written off as possessed insanity. If its the latter thus far you can be a 'outsider' but you'll always have a parent civ as a safety blanket which also allocates the data such as picking out the right data for you and where to appear in the world. So that'll probably not happen until smaller sites/scenarios can justify place with only world links, not explicit civilization links like a exile's hermit tent out in the forest or something, closest you have are monster shrines & caves currently, but even those feel a civ's influence.
To dance around your question a bit, it'll probably revolve around the mechanisms that pets are aquired, either by terms of taming them yourself or not being blacklisted from town merchants for silly antics (possibly hostile civ towns if you want to buy a beakdog on the sly under a false identity) a devlog might clarify in the future if we're lucky to hear more from Toady.
- The answer to your no civ:no animals sapients question is; none, all the data is done by the civ, a creature without the framework is just a singular unit if not just a wilderness creature statistic, though the smallest entity/civ groups can be just one unit depending on what they are, like a army or refugee's from a very underpopulated place.
But actually, do Outsiders have assigned parent civs?
I thought they started with no knowledge of art forms precisely because they didn't have a parent civ? Therefore what pets they get access to in character generation is still an unknown factor.
(Might be misremembering about art forms. Haven't played an Outsider in a while).
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 13, 2019, 04:55:29 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on May 13, 2019, 04:57:19 pm
@EternalCaveDragon: It would be hard for a Were to implement any schemes since the phase where they can spread the curse (i.e. the Were phase) is one where they're completely overcome by rage, and thus unable to implement anything they might have planned. The problem is similar to that of sapient undead who are Opposed to Life (if that's how Toady implements them): the urge overpowers any plans.
They can still ensure they're in a position for maximum spread of infection prior to the full moon and then move on afterward. It's a simplistic and haphazard plan but it's still planning that they'd be plenty capable of when in their non-were form.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 13, 2019, 05:10:38 pm
The most effective plan would then probably be to try to position yourself sufficiently far away from a small group of weak victims that you ought to turn back while in the middle of slaughtering them, so some may survive (including yourself: being naked, unarmed, and confused while hostiles are around would be rather risky).@EternalCaveDragon: It would be hard for a Were to implement any schemes since the phase where they can spread the curse (i.e. the Were phase) is one where they're completely overcome by rage, and thus unable to implement anything they might have planned. The problem is similar to that of sapient undead who are Opposed to Life (if that's how Toady implements them): the urge overpowers any plans.
They can still ensure they're in a position for maximum spread of infection prior to the full moon and then move on afterward. It's a simplistic and haphazard plan but it's still planning that they'd be plenty capable of when in their non-were form.
Post by: Mel_Vixen on May 13, 2019, 07:11:51 pm
Might be similiar for intelligent undead if they have control though with a bit of reduced options. You surely cant go with the more social options but you could always threaten people/settlements, bribe some people with immortality (tze olde vampyr trope) and so on. In the end you could just get someone as middleman that is under your thumb.
Interresting to see in legends mode would be a Undead underling, bribing a General/Lord to incite war with another faction so that the undead underlings boss can raise zombies after a fight.
Cause of that following Question comes to mind: Does the game, in WG fights, tally the dead after a big fight or is there some kind intermediet tally? Like are they fighting for X rounds and count the dead afterwards or do they count them each round?
Could a necro raise the fallen if they were part of one of the sides f.e. if they were under a coveridentity?
Post by: Rose on May 14, 2019, 10:10:16 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 14, 2019, 10:11:17 am
Zombie performance troupes need to stay.
But only if the zombies are concealing their identity as non-zombies, heheh
The Troupe Of Merry Troubadours Who Are Not The Living Dead
Post by: Buttery_Mess on May 14, 2019, 06:44:15 pm
Can "villainous" networks be used for good, either by NPCs or players? In fiction, heroic spy networks are quite common. Not sure how heroic they are irl.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 15, 2019, 02:39:21 am
Can "villainous" networks be used for good, either by NPCs or players? In fiction, heroic spy networks are quite common. Not sure how heroic they are irl.
Even in completely rightous terms there's still some moral ambiguity in 'the good guys' since not all DF things are as clear cut as good and bad, using your own initative to assassinate a 'obstructive' and poorly viewed ruler by the cityfolk who haven't insurrected and deposed them yet is probably a good use of that plotting power.
But the void of power might create a opening for someone already plotting for the throne in a selfish claim to arise who could be just as worse.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 15, 2019, 06:04:39 am
#1: Only diplomats have the [Make Peace Agreements] responsibility etc currently, does this mean we won't be able to push our proposals of alliances if the option is open until in the post king + metropolis lategame when they arrive and become properly settled?
#2: Also sort of tied to the first question (by means of getting to the required noble which in theory should do diplomatic actions), will we be able to attack our allies or break our alliances directly?
The implicits here is that by the use of tags, unless the messenger plays a part, we'll receive alliance offers because our leaders can recieve diplomats or be locked into a pre-existing alliance that might or might not be favorable for us if our ally is doing silly things like starting wars (attacking a civ site with more enemy allies than us) we don't want to partake in or we assume that we're actually strong enough to beat them up too for looting and razing.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 15, 2019, 07:07:12 am
:I didn't think the arrival appointment of a monarch resulted in a fortress getting access to civ level diplomacy currently (I haven't noticed anything when my fortresses have been saddled with monarchs, anyway)?
#1: Only diplomats have the [Make Peace Agreements] responsibility etc currently, does this mean we won't be able to push our proposals of alliances if the option is open until in the post king + metropolis lategame when they arrive and become properly settled?
#2: Also sort of tied to the first question (by means of getting to the required noble which in theory should do diplomatic actions), will we be able to attack our allies or break our alliances directly?
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If a monarch currently doesn't open up civ level options, I don't think they'll do in the near term either (the Starting Scenarios or Law&Customs arcs are possible candidates for opening up that level). Of course, villains might cause some havoc that more or less requires civ level actions to be managable, but I doubt that will be the case.
Post by: Bumber on May 15, 2019, 08:46:48 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 15, 2019, 12:02:34 pm
I didn't think the arrival appointment of a monarch resulted in a fortress getting access to civ level diplomacy currently?
They don't currently, which is why the question is directed for the future release where some functions with alliances may be added within context to what we already have (rather than new nobles), not to try and confuse anybody. The liason and diplomat mostly post monarch sit around demanding extortionately large rooms with no payoff and redundant worldgen only tags, its a bit deflating honestly though the general + elite warriors far overshadow them in usefulness.
If i remember correctly, the liason will also stop making trade agreements with you & since the diplomat never leaves your fortress, its implicative that your civ can only recieve diplomats but not send any out to propose a peace deal and end anything currently ongoing. Hopefully some more future diplomatic actions will put some meat on these interactions to make them meaningful and keep the player involved but that might end up being a different arc (likely laws & customs).
It stands to reason when the reins of your government you've been a colony of settle their positions in your fortress you should probably be able to access everyone who was serving under them too rather than be trapped in your embark box.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 16, 2019, 03:02:05 am
Will civs form alliances against anyone threatening to take over the world? (Mostly goblins, but elves get a lucky rng break every so often, and of course all those delightfully OP civs added by modders) or is it solely for zombie threats? Or perhaps "supernatural threats" if that's a defined thing now?
Will "natural enemies" (Babysnatcher civ and non-babysnatcher civ, etc) join alliances together if threatened, or do they stick to their own?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 16, 2019, 03:57:31 am
Will "natural enemies" (Babysnatcher civ and non-babysnatcher civ, etc) join alliances together if threatened, or do they stick to their own?
Item theif civs like kobolds are a seperate group also (tolerate each other with no hostility like babysnatchers), but since kobolds [UTTERANCES] it is not possible without some sort of oversight for them to act diplomatically, so that applies to modded races only.
Goblins accept tribute, so after a change of demon leadership and keeping up with artifact demands & again somehow improving the relationship standing of leaders mutually (in ways not added yet, might just hinge on them finding common ground) I think this is possible unless Toady explicitly says its not. Might fall apart very fast though on another leadership change or a diplomatic incident like forced tribute arrangements do.
Do distant in far away lands or normally hostile (see shonai's quoted green question on goblin allies) allies trade with your site or alter their behaviour after signing a agreement?
Because beside poking them with a raid or summoning caravans with DFhack (as the masterwork mod does, though thats not applicable here) you'd normally require to embark closer to them. Goblins can't trade but not ruling out peddlers in the future, it could afford us some respite from babysnatchers while the alliance (/truce?) is up.
Right now im pretty sure the only way you can get goblin instruments (cave croc bone drum has pride of place in my tavern) and miscellaneous things is by exorted tribute or looting.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 16, 2019, 04:29:23 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 16, 2019, 05:09:04 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 16, 2019, 12:53:35 pm
And as the world bands together, putting aside old prejudices, the poor old kobolds are left to face the zombie apocalypse alone. Just because no-one understands what they're babbling about. How cruel.
Hey, at least there'll be a surplus of corpses they can loot for shinies. Not entirely a raw deal, if you ask me. :P
Post by: WordsandChaos on May 16, 2019, 03:50:22 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 18, 2019, 04:41:40 pm
Its a common thing that cross species migration can happen if enough citizens simply enter the civ to stay (rarely if never normally except in following point), like for example hundreds of 'slaves' made fast citizens after goblins go on a civ conquering rampage and displace them all virtually. Funnily enough quite like your elf vs zombie mountain halls fight in the recent devlog, just a snowball effect, the dead making more undead and goblin raids making more goblin(ish) raiders.
Are varied migrants called by faith actively disabled/enabled in fortress mode; and would these general faith sites vs specific ones break anything later in background w.g hazarding a guess?
Post by: bieux on May 21, 2019, 03:00:41 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on May 21, 2019, 03:12:37 pm
Post by: Bumber on May 21, 2019, 03:18:40 pm
Totally unrelated to the most immediate upcoming features, has multiplayer been analysed before as a possible feature to be added? What conclusions were drawn about the requirements/likellyhood/desire to add such feature?Toady said it's not going to happen.
There have been a few threads about trying to pull it off with DFHack, but it would be a lot of work and experienced programmer time is in short supply for the community.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 21, 2019, 06:36:35 pm
DF isn't an RTS, i.e. its controls rely on automatic pausing while actions are taken, both to allow the player to make decisions in an intelligent (i.e. non time pressured) manner, and to avoid the mess resulting from sending orders on targets that cease to be valid or are replaced by unintended targets for a myriad reasons (the mess is the things DF would have to deal with: player mistakes aren't factored in here).Totally unrelated to the most immediate upcoming features, has multiplayer been analysed before as a possible feature to be added? What conclusions were drawn about the requirements/likellyhood/desire to add such feature?Toady said it's not going to happen.
There have been a few threads about trying to pull it off with DFHack, but it would be a lot of work and experienced programmer time is in short supply for the community.
In general, multi player and pausing are features that are hard to have present at the same time, so games having multiplayer modes typically are lackluster affairs in single player mode, as many features that are useful to a single player are sacrificed on the continuous (usually accelerated) time altar.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 21, 2019, 06:41:16 pm
Semi-related to FantasticDorf's question above, but referring to the previously noted lack of pushback by demons and druids on organized religions converting those in their sphere for goblins and elves respectively. Is tackling this in the works for the initial release or has it been pushed to a related release after the main villains release?
Its been said in the devlogs in the that druids are a bit more prominent now to decide how their religions are run on elf-sites, and that while toady was preetty sure demon worship was still a thing from the old days, he'd appreciate whatever tinkering modders could do to rectify it. (image attached, look to January's FotF reply thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908714#msg7908714)+ devlogs for that time)
Quote
(https://puu.sh/Dvtpw/a57ab3131f.png)
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on May 21, 2019, 06:44:55 pm
Its been said in the devlogs in the that druids are a bit more prominent now to decide how their religions are run on elf-sites, and that while toady was preetty sure demon worship was still a thing from the old days, he'd appreciate whatever tinkering modders could do to rectify it. (image attached, look to January's FotF reply thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908714#msg7908714)+ devlogs for that time)Quote(https://puu.sh/Dvtpw/a57ab3131f.png)
I remembered the druid thing because I was looking at the associated devlog when I typed the question. I must have missed that particular answer or didn't remember it. My bad. ???
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 23, 2019, 01:11:04 am
Um, spoilers...ah too late. Don't think anyone cares... :)
Post by: golemgunk on May 23, 2019, 02:04:11 am
Currently I think raised zombies will ignore anything that's also undead, so vampire adventurers can just stroll right into a tower unimpeded. If they're taking their group affiliation into account now, I imagine this will change.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 23, 2019, 03:42:53 am
you mentioned that one of these new intelligent undead was killed defending its tower from an attack by another necromancer. Does that mean that necromacers aren't always on the same side, and undead can be made to attack each other now?Remember worldgen works differently to actual in-game interactions. Just look at all the non-goblin poets who go to live in the local Dark Pits to study under the poetry masters there. Try that in-game and see how long you last... :)
Currently I think raised zombies will ignore anything that's also undead, so vampire adventurers can just stroll right into a tower unimpeded. If they're taking their group affiliation into account now, I imagine this will change.
Fair question though. Would be nice to see a little more unity between worldgen and in-game.
Post by: voliol on May 23, 2019, 03:48:12 am
2. Does the computer-controlled dwarves breaking into hell mean that they get access to adamantine? If they do, how is this handled, considering fortress mode wagons have a seemingly endless supply of all kinds of metals, and I have a hard time imagining players should get access to adamantine without the risk of mining it themselves?
3. New goblin(?) or at least demon-lead civs being born excites me, as that would indicate a change from the current status quo where civilizations only die out instead of being created. However, how about the other forces of evil? Are big enough undead empires considered full civilizations (showing up like that on the c-screen etc.) or are they still considered only expansions of one necromancer's villainous network?
4. Do elves eat the undead? Or, rather, the dead undead that they have just killed?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 23, 2019, 04:02:30 am
2. The current logic for material access decides what resources a civ gets access to based on what's available in the immediate vicinity of the starting Mountain Hall, and does not include adamantine currently. I'd expect dynamic resource access to be introduced at or after the introduction of an economy (and derived metal access may become based on access to the source metals as well).
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2. Does the computer-controlled dwarves breaking into hell mean that they get access to adamantine? If they do, how is this handled, considering fortress mode wagons have a seemingly endless supply of all kinds of metals, and I have a hard time imagining players should get access to adamantine without the risk of mining it themselves?
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4. Do elves eat the undead? Or, rather, the dead undead that they have just killed?
4. Dorfs butcher and eat undead, so I see no reason elves wouldn't. Given that the corpses of undead formed from former sapients aren't considered corpses of sapients currently (they go into the refuse stockpile rather than the corpse one and don't scare people, as well as being subject to a burial eternal hauling bug for those raised from citizens and residents) elves may not consider them to be sapient foes worthy of being devoured, though. I wonder what the status of the corpse of an intelligent undead will be, though...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 23, 2019, 04:13:12 am
Seems there's a chance of dwarf survivors too, otherwise I'd say just give it all to the clowns.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 23, 2019, 04:38:37 am
2. The current logic for material access decides what resources a civ gets access to based on what's available in the immediate vicinity of the starting Mountain Hall, and does not include adamantine currently. I'd expect dynamic resource access to be introduced at or after the introduction of an economy (and derived metal access may become based on access to the source metals as well).
Company warehouses of ye'olde Amazon obtaining materials such as draltha leather (in devlog), or indeed Adamantine from a soon to be doomed deeply dug fortress through trade might power forward other things. Naturally if the guilds bulk buy admantine from company stock, work it and then sell it to very successful & rich mercenaries for a profit margin as personal gear or to town shop vendors/wagon merchants the system will have been working perfectly.
But that's just speculative as we don't super know if a primary-secondary-tertiary chain like that exists, only their supposed broad roles and the guilds haven't nessecarily had a proper devlog to explain, perhaps still forthcoming or it's on the backburner for explicit detail.
Toady, do enemy civs ally together in response to player aggressiveness trying to scoop up settlements forcefully to eventually reach nobility targets like baron, duke and count? it seems like it'd be either too much of a deterrant going that path or a easy way to incur fun if you are the percieved world ending threat of a conquerer.
Post by: voliol on May 23, 2019, 05:54:27 am
Toady, do enemy civs ally together in response to player aggressiveness trying to scoop up settlements forcefully to eventually reach nobility targets like baron, duke and count? it seems like it'd be either too much of a deterrant going that path or a easy way to incur fun if you are the percieved world ending threat of a conquerer.
To cite the latest devpost: "[alliances will be formed against] the more evil threats (any group that requires the killing of neutrals, like gobs and the undead)". This is probably about the entity ethics, as defined by the raws (or possibly hardcoded in the case of necromancers). As that there should be no framework for the game to guess the ethics of the player-controlled fortresses, they should default to being the same as the parent civ/entity, and thus the other civilizations shouldn't be able to detect any plans of world domination, unless your parent civ has the necessary ethic tokens. Attacking sites of different civs will still lead to all of them attacking you separately, though.
Post by: therahedwig on May 23, 2019, 08:41:36 am
Still if it works to make sure not all worlds become overrun with evil :)
It's kind of nice to see the other evil stuff fleshed out a little, so we'll have game-generated history behind whether or not dorfs know about the underworld. Or something else to do for mummies beyond getting awoken randomly and then running over the green hills cursing things.
For the new demons creating new goblin civs, is it planned to have that happen in post worldgen background sim as well. That is, if a player fort fails due breaching hell, will we see the consequences once we have a new fort, or will this be a bit too much for this release?
Post by: Death Dragon on May 23, 2019, 09:48:50 am
You said the new intelligent zombie can "can retain much of their old identity". What part of their old personality is missing exactly? Their memories and relationships?
Can necromancers revive intelligent beings as a "good" deed? (For example, reuniting old family members or helping with a murder case.) Or is that more of a magic update thing and beyond the scope of the current update?
Can a mummy be appeased by delivering the lost artifact back to it?
Post by: thvaz on May 23, 2019, 10:14:04 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 23, 2019, 11:04:34 am
Post by: therahedwig on May 23, 2019, 11:25:51 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 23, 2019, 11:30:52 am
Post by: thvaz on May 23, 2019, 12:48:21 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on May 23, 2019, 01:08:46 pm
Post by: voliol on May 23, 2019, 01:20:06 pm
It is a pity Toady never got around to implement all the undeads he had planned back when he did vampires, werewolves, night trolls, mummies and ghosts. There was some really cool ones, like revenants.
*hasn't yet gotten around - remember the myths&magics update comes right after the big wait, and even if they aren't all included in that they have a chance of being implemented alongside tangentially related features, like the upcoming intelligent undead.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 23, 2019, 04:15:46 pm
Going off of the latest dev log, would it be correct to assume that forming alliances as a response to a particularly evil threat will also occur in response to modded in entities that fit that criteria as well? I do hope it is, it'd immerse modded in entities much more into modded worlds if they can interact just like the vanilla entities can with the new update.Devblog implies it's an alliance against any runaway Ethic:Kill_Neutral:Required civ. Should be easy enough to apply to mods.
(Although a little limiting. Means it may not be possible to see alliances against runaway "won't kill you on-sight, but still wants to take over the world" civs).
Post by: Bimbus on May 23, 2019, 07:45:08 pm
Post by: Enemy post on May 23, 2019, 10:24:07 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 23, 2019, 10:54:41 pm
Will the mummies' curses be changed now that they can leave their tombs without the player's prompting?And if not, will they curse other histfigs they come across who survive the encounter?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 24, 2019, 04:54:57 am
Will the mummies' curses be changed now that they can leave their tombs without the player's prompting?And if not, will they curse other histfigs they come across who survive the encounter?
In the development log they slaughtered and ressurected the entire town rather than cursed a few, so it might be reserved for the artifact thief that they never managed to find in the end. possibly.
Post by: GoblinCookie on May 24, 2019, 10:24:57 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 24, 2019, 02:45:36 pm
It sounds like folks only form alliances against those who are Kill Neutral Required. Does that mean that goblins will never ally with other races to stop the zombie invasion because goblin civs will not ally with other races to stop another goblin civilization taking over the world? Would two goblin civilizations ally against a zombie invasion?And would that result in necromancers forming alliances when goblins start to take over the world...?
Post by: Beag on May 25, 2019, 08:42:47 pm
2. Since the new intelligent undead are technically sentient if a player adventurer gets killed and then raised back to life as an intelligent undead will we be able to play as them again if we select play as a specific creature reentering adventure mode?
3. Will player necromancers be able to create intelligent undead and if so how much of a corpse is required for it? For example could we make an intelligent zombie severed head?
4. Who controls intelligent undead if their necromancer master is slain? Do they become free willed undead?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 26, 2019, 04:15:01 am
1. With the new geographical effects necromancers have in the upcoming update if a player necromancer makes a camp and collects enough undead minions can they cause a region to turn into it's evil version?
2. Since the new intelligent undead are technically sentient if a player adventurer gets killed and then raised back to life as an intelligent undead will we be able to play as them again if we select play as a specific creature reentering adventure mode?
3. Will player necromancers be able to create intelligent undead and if so how much of a corpse is required for it? For example could we make an intelligent zombie severed head?
4. Who controls intelligent undead if their necromancer master is slain? Do they become free willed undead?
1. Players don't currently have proper ownership of towers to facilitate that, as the new data bits being added to necro towers seem to indicate that they are the source, so this will probably always be the result of a NPC rather than a player necromancer.
2. Similar to other resurrection questions, i wouldn't think a creature that can't act on its full free will (to bend to you the player's imposed will) would be playable by itself even if its selectable, in all likelyhood it'll be greyed out from selection.
I wouldn't know where to start to answer the remaining two questions, they're that specific only Toady could reply, as id only be able to hazard a guess that intelligent undead have enough components to dissappear amongst refugees to live a quiet life milking cows at the disdain of villagers like the recent undead gorlak in the devlog who became captured and integrated. And that just a rolling head is not probably the kind of thing a necromancer wants to lead their armies so they pick out one that's not too rotten and disfigured.
Post by: GoblinCookie on May 26, 2019, 06:27:53 am
It sounds like folks only form alliances against those who are Kill Neutral Required. Does that mean that goblins will never ally with other races to stop the zombie invasion because goblin civs will not ally with other races to stop another goblin civilization taking over the world? Would two goblin civilizations ally against a zombie invasion?And would that result in necromancers forming alliances when goblins start to take over the world...?
Indeed.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 26, 2019, 07:56:44 am
The diametric differences between the entities [babysnatcher group hostility etc or imbalanced values and ethics] are probably more of a foundation why people would single out "kill neutral" civs than anything hardcoded to only ally against those groups. Maybe Toady attributed it without clarity of greater subtle context simply because it was a shared trait between the civs being attacked? im not sure.
If alliances can be tenous at times between our own 'side' of humans elves and dwarves, then its probably going to be just as strained between necromancers and "enemy" civs like goblins (and whatever else the player mods in with the intention to make this friction and give them company on their lonely side of the fence)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 26, 2019, 04:40:25 pm
I think [KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED] ethic is being taken slightly out of proportion regarding the context, as its a pretty simple trigger elves into attacking if pressed with charges of plant/animal ethic abuses in which to stomp some medium sized human civ somewhere like they do most of the time being the easiest to offend in the game.Or maybe he said it because that's what he meant to say.
The diametric differences between the entities [babysnatcher group hostility etc or imbalanced values and ethics] are probably more of a foundation why people would single out "kill neutral" civs than anything hardcoded to only ally against those groups. Maybe Toady attributed it without clarity of greater subtle context simply because it was a shared trait between the civs being attacked? im not sure.
If alliances can be tenous at times between our own 'side' of humans elves and dwarves, then its probably going to be just as strained between necromancers and "enemy" civs like goblins (and whatever else the player mods in with the intention to make this friction and give them company on their lonely side of the fence)
Happens sometimes.
Babysnatcher and Item_thief don't make a civ require the killing of neutrals. That's what Kill_Neutral:Required does.
Hi, just to clarify, by "requires the killing of neutrals", did you mean civs (including zombies) which have the tag "Ethic:Kill_Neutral:Required" or something else?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 27, 2019, 04:56:26 pm
Could necromancer evil-biome spread be moddable at all for those with custom secrets mods and so on (spread of savagery, different site type spreads evil, etc)? Or has it been made in a way very specific to Necromancers and Tower sites?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 28, 2019, 03:49:24 am
Two in a row, sorry...There is the option of editing the previous post to add stuff, rather than make a new one with an apology...
Could necromancer evil-biome spread be moddable at all for those with custom secrets mods and so on (spread of savagery, different site type spreads evil, etc)? Or has it been made in a way very specific to Necromancers and Tower sites?
While only Toady can answer the question, I'd expect it to be a rather specific "hack" as it's going to have to be done again more or less from scratch when spheres and their influences are implemented on a significantly changed foundation.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 28, 2019, 04:55:39 am
Not being familiar with clever forum options, I didn't want to risk sending an alert to FantatiscDorf that I'd added to our riveting discussion only to have him plunge into despair at the realization that I'd added unrelated drivel. Happens more than you think...Two in a row, sorry...There is the option of editing the previous post to add stuff, rather than make a new one with an apology...
Could necromancer evil-biome spread be moddable at all for those with custom secrets mods and so on (spread of savagery, different site type spreads evil, etc)? Or has it been made in a way very specific to Necromancers and Tower sites?
While only Toady can answer the question, I'd expect it to be a rather specific "hack" as it's going to have to be done again more or less from scratch when spheres and their influences are implemented on a significantly changed foundation.
Yeah, think it's more likely a hack than a future-proof mechanic. Doesn't hurt to ask though.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 28, 2019, 05:21:12 am
Post by: Moonshadow101 on May 29, 2019, 12:38:21 pm
Is this new demon-ruled Dwarven civ playable?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 29, 2019, 04:29:53 pm
In the most recent front page update, you said that a Dwarven Civ can breach the underworld and be overtaken. At this point, a new civilization is formed.It's a demon and goblin civ. The dwarves are dead. So almost certainly not.
Is this new demon-ruled Dwarven civ playable?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on May 29, 2019, 10:47:19 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 29, 2019, 11:12:52 pm
I mean I could see a few dwarves escaping or being enslaved, but it still doesn't strike me as a playable situation.One plucky lad with an adamantine wafer tucked in his sock escapes. The epic tale starts here.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 30, 2019, 03:52:55 am
If the plucky lad escapes, it implies to me that he's a refugee from the destroyed ("struggling"?) civ, not the replacement one. Goblin civs assimilating conquered dorfs (and elves, and humies...) are still goblin civs, regardless of the race of individual members, or even the majority/all of the members (and a dwarven civ that has no dorfs, but only members of other races is still a dwarven civ, made embarkable only by the power of the void [dwarves]).I mean I could see a few dwarves escaping or being enslaved, but it still doesn't strike me as a playable situation.One plucky lad with an adamantine wafer tucked in his sock escapes. The epic tale starts here.
Post by: bieux on May 30, 2019, 05:12:29 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 30, 2019, 07:51:37 am
Considering you mentioned alliances in the second most recent devlog, is adding more diplomatic options and interactions to fort mode something planned for this release?A complication when it comes to diplomacy is that it mostly happens on the civ level, not the site one (the elven tree quota demands is an exception to this), and as far as I know a Fortress doesn't act as the head of a civ even when it's the Mountainhome with a monarch. This is something that will have to be addressed eventually, but I'd expect the bulk of it to wait until the Law & Customs arc where significant parts of the associated framework probably would have to be modified quite significantly. I'm interested in Toady's response regarding the short term, of course.
Post by: Eschar on May 30, 2019, 11:29:19 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 30, 2019, 11:32:42 am
Considering you mentioned alliances in the second most recent devlog, is adding more diplomatic options and interactions to fort mode something planned for this release?A complication when it comes to diplomacy is that it mostly happens on the civ level, not the site one (the elven tree quota demands is an exception to this), and as far as I know a Fortress doesn't act as the head of a civ even when it's the Mountainhome with a monarch. This is something that will have to be addressed eventually, but I'd expect the bulk of it to wait until the Law & Customs arc where significant parts of the associated framework probably would have to be modified quite significantly. I'm interested in Toady's response regarding the short term, of course.
I think i went over asking a similar question earlier in the thread, you won't get a diplomat to use who might be capable of making things happen until very late in the game anyway when the Monarch has arrived. Its like the General turning up, and demanding control and access to all of the army controllers and where they go from them, the Fortress mode doesn't have the authority/features to do that right now.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on May 31, 2019, 08:08:21 pm
Post by: Toady One on June 01, 2019, 01:05:29 am
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Do you think more investment into active diplomacy would break the cycles of DF that any small hitch in the working relationships of your fortress and outside civs eventually leads to a conflict without resolution?
To kind of add, gifting artifacts to my knowledge is meant to smooth things over as are demanding them but usually there's only really a few out of probably many (when you have a set of 10 therabouts) that other civs actually covet. Once you start a war often by accident of bugs without meaning to strain your relationship the only REAL resolution is to prepare to kill the entire population of the enemy which is often unfeasable.
Im aware of it being a abstact concept, but do you have any kind of view on making DF's war & politics more 'game' like for accessibility-(concepts like 'War Score' for instance to determine after how many raids, battles and razings the war's direction is going to pressure diplomatic action like surrender and peace) -or will the game always have other civs or 'actors' as it were in the abstract?
The breakdown and very scatty diplomacy breaks many wars this way, which are status quo because the relevant people are offsite or dead already and they won't quit, i think i had a near extinct human civ once battle a large elf nation for 200 years because they retreated (or bandits did) into the caves where they wouldn't be found once, that was a wierd world save (I've lost it now anyway).
Sure, more work would make it better. It doesn't give you nearly enough information or provide you with nearly enough tools to manage your affairs in a more peaceful fashion.
Quote from: Egan_BW
Given that you're having music made for the steam version, does that mean that we shouldn't expect you to ever record more songs for the vanilla version?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7964315#msg7964315
Well, it hasn't happened for the last X years, so I think having an expectation now would be a bit much, but I have no idea. It's hard to find long chunks of time.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Its odd and im sure someone can pick up a similar question asked previously, would you ever support DLC for the steam version collaboratively as a 'add on' or 'technical polishing' of a mod?
To provide a example, a popular mod like Masterwork utilises elements of the game through DFhack to incur the desired effect by reusing game assets or mechanics exploitatively on script command (teleportation etc), if you were to code over these, it would constitute besides what assets the mod creator can bring themselves like sprites to creating a premium package.
I'm not sure I understand. I don't know what 'code over' means here. Like when we improved the job priority stuff, which aligned (as I understand it) with some of what workflow was doing? I dunno what that has to do with DLC.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Regarding the latest dev log: It's an interesting "preview" of sphere influence logic to allow necro towers to change the evilness of their surroundings. Are you planning any counters to this (e.g. razing or conquering a necro tower causing the evilness to dissipate and the world tiles to gradually return to their base state) to avoid a gradual decay of the world into complete evilness as necro towers are created and stomped out?
We haven't done anything, but the problem is apparent of course, and we were hoping at some point to add a reversion mechanic. It's not currently a huge problem, since the process is pretty slow, so it may or may not happen before the general scrapping that comes with the magic stuff.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I assume not, but just in case, will we be able to experience the creeping evil biome in fortress mode if we embark on the edge of the evil and leave the tower alone for years?
Opening the map and discovering you're now the one good square in a sea of evilness is kind of fun too, I guess...
Yeah, I don't predict you'll see any local map changes if you come before the evil does. It's a bit to code, with the magic stuff looming on the horizon.
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Quote from: ZM5Regarding the newest devlog's mention of regions slowly becoming evil due to necromancer influence, will that be a hardcoded thing linked to towers or will that be more linked towards the caster type itself, so that modders could make the region become good over time insteadQuote from: Shonai_DwellerCould necromancer evil-biome spread be moddable at all for those with custom secrets mods and so on (spread of savagery, different site type spreads evil, etc)? Or has it been made in a way very specific to Necromancers and Tower sites?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967234#msg7967234
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7975438#msg7975438
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7975443#msg7975443
I didn't set up any kind of framework for it, as there's just nothing comparable going on in world gen AI and I'm not sure what I'll need yet for the real deal later. I guess it could be linked to good zombies or something, but they don't use other sorts of interactions as I recollect.
Quote from: voliol
Intelligent zombie lieutenants (with historical backgrounds!) are an exciting addition. Are they an automatic consequence of any corpse-raising interaction, or are they being restricted to the vanilla necromancers until the big magic rework? If they aren't restricted, is there a way to control the kind of names they are assigned depending on the interaction?
They use the existing resurrection effect that was used for mummies previously. The names work exactly as with the necromancers and mummies and vampires - they are just a string that can be typed into the raws, or, for the vanilla stuff, is generated at the beginning of world gen for each interaction. I didn't really end up adding anything new at all, though perhaps there are tweaks that'll need to be made during testing in post w.g. to get the resurrections to work there. We had wanted to add a placeholder more-costly ritual to stop it from being used too freely, but right now, it's just a separate power of the necromancer that is as easy to use as regular corpse raising, which is kinda deeply silly, but that's okay for the moment.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Since the abilities of a necromancer become the abilities of the player generally when they become a necromancer themselves, will we be able to raise our companions and important NPC's as intelligent zombies if they die?
A comparison i guess can be drawn from is the 'RPG Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic' where a specific skill branch of magic could allow you to speak to dead characters (killed by yourself or others) with lots of custom NPC lines arranged for that occasion. I wonder if revived zombies will be more talkative with you in death than they were life about sensitive subjects.
Yeah, the raising power should work if the body of the companion is fit for resurrection. It applies a standard mummy-like syndrome that makes them more resilient in many ways so they shouldn't (usually) die again immediately.
Their personalities remain unchanged currently. Some people in world gen don't retain their personalities (mostly for mem reasons), but your companions should be more or less intact.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
1. Will creatures with a very high intrigue/divination abilities be biased towards responding to threats from the player's party more rapidly compared to AI entities, at least to a small degree, for plot purposes?
2. Will characters with a vendetta against a villain be able to offer to join your party if they find out you're directly fighting said villain?
3. Will villains be able to send agents to try and infiltrate the player's party itself, for example by pretending to be a bereaved party seeking revenge (like in 2.)
4. Similar to 3, will villains be able to try and sow discord within an entity by pitting important members against each other through false evidence and slander, up to and including the player's party?
5. Will agents of villains be able to stalk the party, interrogate people that the party has talked to for info, etc.
6. Will 'disposable pawns' be a thing for sufficiently ruthless villains? e.g. tying up loose ends by killing low-level members that have fulfilled their purpose if they know too much, setting up low-level members to take the fall for a crime, etc.
7. Will the villains do petty, not-entirely-rational villainous actions if they're particularly vicious, arbitrary and it aligns with their personality in general? By this, I mean things like:
a) Killing subordinates for minor or imagined slights, perceived failure in their duties, or if they're unhinged enough, just for the heck of it
b) Dolling out disproportionate retribution to entities that have cooperated with their enemies, like butchering and burning down an entire village just because some peasant in it let the heroic adventurers stay overnight
c) Making a spectacle out of eliminating their enemies, e.g. publicly parading and then executing them, intentionally assassinating them in a brutal fashion in public, killing them in front of friends and loved ones (if said friends and loved ones are also prisoners, but also possibly keeping hostages around just to do this later if the villain expects a direct confrontation in the near future)
d) Destroying artifacts of sentimental value to their foes, if said artifact isn't too useful to them, or even destroying highly useful artifacts out of spite if they feel that their loss is imminent
1-7. I'm not sure we'll get to any of this. '5' to some extent, though that depends on what information can even be available. '4' is similar to the framing that we have, but not identical; 'lies' that have a function more broadly are still a difficult problem.
Quote from: Bumber
Are our adventurers able to be raised as intelligent undead, or is it world-gen figures only?
The power can't see the difference, if you have a reasonably intact corpse fit for resurrecting. So a player necromancer could do it, and depending on how the AI shakes out, the necromancers should continue doing it as well, to both the older and newer bodies.
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
1. Will we have the new intelligent undead in the old saves, so existing necromancers can get rolling with this in their villainy?
2. Will we have the same zombie caps as adventure-mode necromancers?
3. Will we be able to get stone to build proper necromancer towers and expand our zombie caps?
4. Will we be able to integrate zombies into our dwarf forts and set a "zombie policy" for resident necromancers to follow?
5. Will we be able to push back the evil regions spreading out from towers?
6. Will the evil regions spread from towers also have evil weather and blanket re-animation effects, or will it just be a normal region with zombies?
Personally, one advantage of the old system (DF2010) was that there wasn't an un-counterable blanket re-animation effect from the biome, and there wasn't say, evil rain that made a mess of the map. The zombies and skeletons coming in from the side was just great. The gloom clouds are another matter - I really liked that addition.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967628#msg7967628
iceball3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967634#msg7967634
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967690#msg7967690
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967746#msg7967746
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967791#msg7967791
1. Nope. Restructuring the (generated) raw definitions in old saves is too dangerous.
2+3. It's just a different situation - we don't have a way for adventurers to interact with abstract populations.
4. Nope!
5. We haven't done anything with this yet, but it's still on the table in case the evilness becomes too annoying.
6. Yeah, we have a new regional profile that brings that stuff along, though I haven't tested it in the post w.g. modes yet. This doesn't rename the region, but lets it understand how to use the unexpected evil value.
Quote from: iceball3
After a few years trawling through DF's raws, i noticed that a quite a few values seem to be set as placeholder or default values. For example:
-The attack-recover period of all weapons and almost all natural attacks (excluding kicks)
-The force multiplier of natural attacks
-The bodily-material toughness and thickness of everything made of flesh and bone, particularly concerning the lack of differences between beasts of drastic size difference (this may just be intended outright)
-The lack of differences in base stat attributes between beasts
-Plant thread and various other flexible materials fracturing with little bending or impact force, in particular, they seem to have various of both yields and fractures set as low as 10,000 in many cases.
My question is just thus, in your opinion, are these values:
-Intended to be as they are, as the role they serve is vague and combat calculations mysterious enough that they work good enough as is?
-Placeholders for an eventual material and physics detail rework?
-Left at values that work well enough, specifically so the modding community and contributors can refine the values for full conversion mods or otherwise general contributions?
or
-Some other intention?
There are quite a few things I know that -are- planned that would largely change the balance of materials, which is why I figure that a lot of the values acting as placeholders for the time being would make sense, like the multi-material-weapons feature and so forth.
Mostly we're waiting for the combat and item rewrites, yeah, or they are otherwise unfinished (creature sounds, etc.) Stuff like attributes for animals just wouldn't have any game effects right now, mostly. Like, a crow should be more creative than a carp, but it would have no meaning in-game, so worrying about numbers would be a waste.
Quote from: KittyTac
Will there be a setting for the power of magic? So that in some worlds, wizards would be godlike, in others they would be on par with mundane sentients, and so on.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967791#msg7967791
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967851#msg7967851
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967899#msg7967899
KittyTac (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7968044#msg7968044
The final set of settings/sliders is still a long way from being determined. Such a setting is certainly reasonable, important and fits with the goal of allowing a variety of fantasy settings to be generated.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Will every secret-knower with a reanimation effect try to take over the world, or does it depend as well on their personalities or other interaction/syndrome tokens or other factors?
It matters to me specifically because I have mods with multiple secrets with reanimations, but I didn't want all of them to be aggressive world-conquerers or even necessarily villains in the first place.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967791#msg7967791
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967851#msg7967851
The vanilla ones are all generally outcasts, since communities all kick them out for not aging after a time, and they often pre-empt that by leaving first, and see plots as required. We needed a higher rate of troublesome behavior since not enough of them do anything spectacular otherwise, pretty much, so we also have the shock of learning the secrets of life and death make their personalities more extreme, which is sufficient. That'll be something you can do or not in your mods.
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Quote from: falccThere's a different tile for creatures that swim under the water, there's a sun direction, there is field of view, so: Is it possible, if only in a long-term development sense, to have reflections off of water and/or silvered mirrors?
I was listening to something in the LudoNarraCon talks before yours and was reminded that photorealism can't handle reflections at all. But even when your graphics are a bit more sophisticated, will it ever be possible to 'l'ook at something reflective and have the game know what tiles should be visible in that thing from your own position? Or, could a reflective mirror assembled somewhere add to your adventurer's field of view tiles?I'm just super curious if your kind of graphics have this advantage over non-text games.Quote from: therahedwigBesides reflection, are there plans for other vision weirdness things? Darkness is a thing already, but what about refraction/simple distortion or fog?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7967998#msg7967998
I think doing general tile-by-tile effects would still be too expensive, even in our graphical situation, and we should be using the processor for other stuff. Doing reflections in terms of single lines for specific purposes is more possible, or in a situation where it is describing in text what important things you can see in a mirror, say.
Quote from: golemgunk
When necromancers attack cities, are they just trying to kill everyone, or do they stop after seizing power?
I've just always wondered if a necromancer's idea of world domination is anything less than "extinction of all life" and if the living have any place under their rule.
Edit: Additionally, will the death of a necromancer have any affect on their raised undead?
I know it currently doesn't, but it seems apropos for that to change now that the activities of zombies are being considered.
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7968047#msg7968047
These necromancers are interested in killing everybody. They convert all candidate living populations to zombies through mass execution and raising. Killing the necromancers stops them from utilizing their pack of zombies, but they don't all just fall over or whatever. There are many issues about what sort of control is happening that we are leaving vague until we have more information, during the actual magic release. There'll be some contradictions, but we don't have time to sort them out now.
Quote from: Pillbo
Are you considering allowing any of this 'undead runaway performer' thing to stay?
Do the intelligent undead have their old goals, dreams or preferences or are they clean slates?
Will the undead have any of their own agency or will they act solely under direction? Are they considered Opposed To Life?
Also what happens to an army of intelligent undead when their necromancer is bumped off?
LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7968966#msg7968966
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969072#msg7969072
We don't have a notion of control right now (outside of the vault stuff, which still isn't used in w.g.), since that's out of the bounds of something we can easily code without a more comprehensive rewrite (and so should just wait for the big magic guttings). So the undead just join the necromancer entity+plot and show the typical amount of loyalty one shows there (i.e. total automated loyalty, most of the time.) If the undead find themselves imprisoned and freed or etc., they can sort of rejoin society, but they have the typical problem of not aging and being cast out. Since performance troupes can move around, they might still find a more permanent home in one. I haven't searched for such characters, but I suspect they are still around. It was just disgorging them from the tower into arts/scholarship/etc. when the bug was happening though, in part because of how unlike the tower is from typical sites, so I had to cut it off there.
Intelligent undead are not opposed to life (just as necromancers are not.) Mummies used to be opposed to life, but that has been removed to make their interactions more consistent.
The intelligent undead continue to chill in the entity if they are still a part of it, but they don't know how to raise more dead and so the conquest plot doesn't continue at all typically.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I guess it may be a matter for Kitfox, but what do you envisage the Steam release to go like? Generally right now it's Release, Emergency patch or three, settle into small updates/bug fixes. This time might it make more sense to Free release, emergency patches then Steam release to avoid Steam backlash/refunding?
Or do you perhaps have a playtest with Kitfox/others planned? Or even a closed beta?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7968882#msg7968882
Yeah, we can't just release it on Steam without testing. I don't know how that's going to be structured.
Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
1. With the necromancers getting world conquest as a goal. Will other supernatural villains (vampires, werebeasts, and demons) that currently exist be getting similar goals as well? Such as for example a vampire wanting to increase the amount of vampires in the world and/or induct everyone into their associated cult. Or a werebeast getting the idea of turning everyone they can into werebeasts of their type.
1a. Same as above, but will the conventional villains also gain such aspirations? Would it require that their aspiration in life is to rule the world?
We are out of time to do anything more than what we've described; the vampires have their new immortality promises, and they still enact their tyrant laws and mass murder if they become rulers, but we didn't go beyond that. The traditional villains do have their goals to rule the world and attain rank, though, and those are respected.
Quote from: Rubik
In many talks, specially the 9th one, I think (since that's the one I was listening some hours ago), you mention that you took classes in many areas aside from math. This combined with all the research you do for the different mechanics (also mentioned in the talks) gives a polymath air.
Are there any books you have read on sciences and history that you'd recommend to people, because you found them really good?
Are rogue adventurers(not belonging to any civ) gonna be able to acquire pets and mounts in adventure creation mode?
I kinda wanted to do an eragon mod and this question came to mind
If a sapient does not belong to any civ, which creatures does he have access to?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7968958#msg7968958
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969187#msg7969187
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969201#msg7969201
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969202#msg7969202
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969209#msg7969209
Mel_Vixen: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969257#msg7969257
Hmm, I don't really have any book recommendations along those lines. I'm always hesistant to recommend what counts as good here since I'm not particularly qualified to speak on science or history, or most other things.
I just started up an outsider adventurer, and it looks like they can pick anything during creation.
Post by: Toady One on June 01, 2019, 01:05:52 am
Quote from: ZM5
Question about advanced worldgen, since I'm struggling with a mod I'm doing - does setting the parameter for bogeyman generation to 0 completely disable bogey attacks, even if custom ones are in the raws folder, or does it only prevent vanilla bogeymen from generating?
The number of bogeyman types parameter just determines how many new raw defs are created which have NIGHT_CREATURE_BOGEYMAN. When generating the regions, it just appears to query for that flag. I don't see immediately why a modded one wouldn't show up even if the parameter is set to zero.
Quote from: Mel_Vixen
Does the game, in WG fights, tally the dead after a big fight or is there some kind intermediet tally? Like are they fighting for X rounds and count the dead afterwards or do they count them each round?
Could a necro raise the fallen if they were part of one of the sides f.e. if they were under a coveridentity?
The non-historical creatures are broken into squads and there is a process of rounds and so forth, some of which is recounted in the events, when historical figures are involved, but it doesn't yet provide a great picture of the process.
Necros still separate themselves from society in most cases, but if they happen to be around in a regular civ, they don't try anything.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Will it be possible for players to become intelligent undead thralls?
Can "villainous" networks be used for good, either by NPCs or players? In fiction, heroic spy networks are quite common. Not sure how heroic they are irl.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969826#msg7969826
With the parties it'll be especially easy, I imagine, if one of you becomes a necromancer and the rest of your party is dead, and then you raise everybody and then flip into them. Otherwise, I'm not really sure how it'll react. The raised undead has the same historical figure id, and so *might* appear in the list of retired adventurers, but they might not, depending on how the flagging works there.
You can do whatever you want with your networks as a player. Maybe stealing an artifact or assassinating a target is good, depending on what/who/why. The 'good' counterintelligence people don't actively plot outward yet, so the other networks generally have selfish goals, but their actions might seem good for a time depending on where they are pointed.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
#1: Only diplomats have the [Make Peace Agreements] responsibility etc currently, does this mean we won't be able to push our proposals of alliances if the option is open until in the post king + metropolis lategame when they arrive and become properly settled?
#2: Also sort of tied to the first question (by means of getting to the required noble which in theory should do diplomatic actions), will we be able to attack our allies or break our alliances directly?
The implicits here is that by the use of tags, unless the messenger plays a part, we'll receive alliance offers because our leaders can recieve diplomats or be locked into a pre-existing alliance that might or might not be favorable for us if our ally is doing silly things like starting wars (attacking a civ site with more enemy allies than us) we don't want to partake in or we assume that we're actually strong enough to beat them up too for looting and razing.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969869#msg7969869
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7969966#msg7969966
#1: Currently, that would make the most sense, but I'm not sure what we'll end up with for this time. It may be that there are just some additional simple options to play with, but I might not be able to do that if site-based alliances screw everything up.
#2: I assume you'll be able to do whatever you want here, though in some future version you might be cast out of the civ for it.
Quote from: Bumber
Have you given any thought to Steam trading cards for the game yet? You could probably do some crayon drawings or a small ASCII scene (like some regional tiles, the intro movie art, or a mayor's office.) Collect the full set and you get a badge of the DF logo dwarf for your Steam profile.
Haven't had a chance to think about them or even achievements much yet. I'm kind of siloed off into villain work until I get that done, so we can bring our full attention over when we switch gears.
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Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWill civs form alliances against anyone threatening to take over the world? (Mostly goblins, but elves get a lucky rng break every so often, and of course all those delightfully OP civs added by modders) or is it solely for zombie threats? Or perhaps "supernatural threats" if that's a defined thing now?
Will "natural enemies" (Babysnatcher civ and non-babysnatcher civ, etc) join alliances together if threatened, or do they stick to their own?Quote from: FantasticDorfDo distant in far away lands or normally hostile (see shonai's quoted green question on goblin allies) allies trade with your site or alter their behaviour after signing a agreement?
Because beside poking them with a raid or summoning caravans with DFhack (as the masterwork mod does, though thats not applicable here) you'd normally require to embark closer to them. Goblins can't trade but not ruling out peddlers in the future, it could afford us some respite from babysnatchers while the alliance (/truce?) is up.
Right now im pretty sure the only way you can get goblin instruments (cave croc bone drum has pride of place in my tavern) and miscellaneous things is by exorted tribute or looting.Quote from: FantasticDorfToady, do enemy civs ally together in response to player aggressiveness trying to scoop up settlements forcefully to eventually reach nobility targets like baron, duke and count? it seems like it'd be either too much of a deterrant going that path or a easy way to incur fun if you are the percieved world ending threat of a conquerer.Quote from: EternalCaveDragonGoing off of the latest dev log, would it be correct to assume that forming alliances as a response to a particularly evil threat will also occur in response to modded in entities that fit that criteria as well? I do hope it is, it'd immerse modded in entities much more into modded worlds if they can interact just like the vanilla entities can with the new update.Quote from: GoblinCookieIt sounds like folks only form alliances against those who are Kill Neutral Required. Does that mean that goblins will never ally with other races to stop the zombie invasion because goblin civs will not ally with other races to stop another goblin civilization taking over the world? Would two goblin civilizations ally against a zombie invasion?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerHi, just to clarify, by "requires the killing of neutrals", did you mean civs (including zombies) which have the tag "Ethic:Kill_Neutral:Required" or something else?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7970270#msg7970270
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7973363#msg7973363
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7973413#msg7973413
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7973624#msg7973624
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7974023#msg7974023
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7974767#msg7974767
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7974891#msg7974891
Yeah, it is limited currently, by the ethic setting. That may or may not change before the release, but the current setup accomplishes what we needed. I'm not sure it'll be easy to extend with the time we have left, though simple strength comparisons merged with the love/hate numbers might be enough to make them act vaguely plausibly in broader situations.
Quote from: WordsandChaos
You mentioned villains having a chance to follow through or not on their power-sharing promises to their minions -I'm interested to know if the minions will be able to act on thwarted aspirations?
Poor minions waiting forever in blue-balled limbo without acting, while their masters make a continuous stream of new promises they have no intention of fulfilling (we could make a society out of this. No don't). Although this sort of thing is the fulcrum of many a story - the enraged minion who has been denied one too many times and decides to take matters into their own hands. Although on the flip side, I suppose you've then got to take into account every person in fiction (and history) who ever said "Yes, Urist McMinion, you'll be rich/powerful beyond your wildest dreams!" before having the recipient of said promise disappear in one way or another (which I'm assuming is just a whole new tangled sub-branch of code in this very dense canopy...)
It's a note, but we didn't get to writing up the checks/timers for it.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
little bit of a callback question to the prophets and religious work of this arc, while i was explaining this to someone else asking about diverse migrants to help them with their suggestion thread It struck me that the current fortress prayer method of using (no-specific-denomination) might end up mass attracting potential migrants already visiting in other areas of your civ if foriegn long term residents are allowed to pray, possibly leading to annoying build up like the adventurer spam a few versions ago.
Its a common thing that cross species migration can happen if enough citizens simply enter the civ to stay (rarely if never normally except in following point), like for example hundreds of 'slaves' made fast citizens after goblins go on a civ conquering rampage and displace them all virtually. Funnily enough quite like your elf vs zombie mountain halls fight in the recent devlog, just a snowball effect, the dead making more undead and goblin raids making more goblin(ish) raiders.
Are varied migrants called by faith actively disabled/enabled in fortress mode; and would these general faith sites vs specific ones break anything later in background w.g hazarding a guess?
Right now, I haven't done anything with organized religion, and it looks like only temples associated to the general practice of worshiping a specific deity will attract believers. If we get to the organized religion stuff in fort mode, which we are hoping to do, then visitors with those religious practices will come to associated temples. But they shouldn't come to generic temples.
Quote from: bieux
Totally unrelated to the most immediate upcoming features, has multiplayer been analysed before as a possible feature to be added? What conclusions were drawn about the requirements/likellyhood/desire to add such feature?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7972565#msg7972565
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7972697#msg7972697
We just aren't interested, though people can pass their saves around and so forth.
Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
Semi-related to FantasticDorf's question above, but referring to the previously noted lack of pushback by demons and druids on organized religions converting those in their sphere for goblins and elves respectively. Is tackling this in the works for the initial release or has it been pushed to a related release after the main villains release?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7972700#msg7972700
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7972702#msg7972702
There's a note about it, but I'm not sure I'll do anything with it at this point. Going to wait and see how odd the typical worlds are in practice first, since addressing it will take some work. Had the additional interesting case of a compromised elf queen conspiring to replace the existing druid with a goblin... at some point, the other elves should raise their eyebrows, but we don't have anything like that kind of broader awareness yet.
Quote from: Shonai_Dwellers
So are these new civs basically goblin civs lead by a released demon? Or actual full-on hell civs packed with demons and a couple of goblins thrown in? Do they create the initial goblins?
They have goblins so that they can behave normally, but they have a pack of 5-20 non-civ-leader underworld demons to make them scarier, and they also have a standard demon leader. All of these creatures are created on the spot, as the underworld is assumed to have unnumbered amounts of such beings currently, though the goblin is faked and indeed it just checks for the EVIL tag on them, the good old EVIL tag. I didn't bother simulating their underworld pops on account of time and the upcoming magic release clarification of these matters.
Quote from: golemgunk
you mentioned that one of these new intelligent undead was killed defending its tower from an attack by another necromancer. Does that mean that necromacers aren't always on the same side, and undead can be made to attack each other now?
Currently I think raised zombies will ignore anything that's also undead, so vampire adventurers can just stroll right into a tower unimpeded. If they're taking their group affiliation into account now, I imagine this will change.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7973338#msg7973338
They still don't fight in local play. It hasn't been worth it making things consistent, while the nature of undead control is completely unspecified.
Quote
Quote from: voliol1. Is there any difference between the different kinds of intelligent undead, or are the different names just there for procedural flavor and to give the player a hint to who raised them?
2. Does the computer-controlled dwarves breaking into hell mean that they get access to adamantine? If they do, how is this handled, considering fortress mode wagons have a seemingly endless supply of all kinds of metals, and I have a hard time imagining players should get access to adamantine without the risk of mining it themselves?
3. New goblin(?) or at least demon-lead civs being born excites me, as that would indicate a change from the current status quo where civilizations only die out instead of being created. However, how about the other forces of evil? Are big enough undead empires considered full civilizations (showing up like that on the c-screen etc.) or are they still considered only expansions of one necromancer's villainous network?
4. Do elves eat the undead? Or, rather, the dead undead that they have just killed?Quote from: BimbusWith the Dwarves being able to breach the Underworld, will Adamantite finally be used in worldgen?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7973348#msg7973348
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7973350#msg7973350
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7973354#msg7973354
1. It's all flavor now. There are enough existing interactions to give them some power differences, and that was on the table during the supernatural additions, but we ran out of time. Still on the table if we decide to play around with it, but we do have to finish sometime, and the magic release will blow it all up.
2. Ha ha, not yet! I suppose we could have been kind to them, but we don't really have a good way of limiting the amount of a material yet, since the w.g. numeric stockpiles aren't linked to the equipment used, so it would end up being too common. Another job for the future economy.
3. It ended up having to be an odd cobbled together solution of sites umbrella'd over each other. I really need to destroy the civ/site entity concepts at some point, as they've been causing various issues over the years, but that's not on the table for a while.
4. They shouldn't, if the checks work.
Quote from: therahedwig
For the new demons creating new goblin civs, is it planned to have that happen in post worldgen background sim as well. That is, if a player fort fails due breaching hell, will we see the consequences once we have a new fort, or will this be a bit too much for this release?
We are hoping to get to this with fort mode, at least the part where the demons are understood to be out and able to do a bit, though clearly we can't have an unnumbered amount of them running about. I'm not sure if that means goblins will also be introduced. Maybe not, the way everything is up in the sky.
Quote from: Death Dragon
You said the new intelligent zombie can "can retain much of their old identity". What part of their old personality is missing exactly? Their memories and relationships?
Can necromancers revive intelligent beings as a "good" deed? (For example, reuniting old family members or helping with a murder case.) Or is that more of a magic update thing and beyond the scope of the current update?
Can a mummy be appeased by delivering the lost artifact back to it?
I just wasn't sure how much of it is cleaned up by the living left behind; their marriages, for instance, are removed by the other partner while they are still dead. Maybe a few other bits like that, plots that have been patched away from them, etc. But everything else is retained, if they were deemed important enough on the moment of their death for the memory in use to be kept active.
Necromancers don't think particularly good thoughts at this time. I think you might be able to play an adventurer that way.
Nope, the mummy doesn't have a ghost-style trigger to put it to rest, though over time we should be generalizing concepts like that.
Quote
Quote from: Enemy postWill the mummies' curses be changed now that they can leave their tombs without the player's prompting?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerAnd if not, will they curse other histfigs they come across who survive the encounter?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7973826#msg7973826
I haven't changed anything about mummies, aside from the ability to raise intelligent undead and to be disturbed in world gen, as far as I remember. The rest comes from the general villain/necro AI being applied to them. The curse is the same. It always had the "DISTURBER_ONLY" tag, so it shouldn't come into broader use.
Quote from: Beag
1. With the new geographical effects necromancers have in the upcoming update if a player necromancer makes a camp and collects enough undead minions can they cause a region to turn into it's evil version?
2. Since the new intelligent undead are technically sentient if a player adventurer gets killed and then raised back to life as an intelligent undead will we be able to play as them again if we select play as a specific creature reentering adventure mode?
3. Will player necromancers be able to create intelligent undead and if so how much of a corpse is required for it? For example could we make an intelligent zombie severed head?
4. Who controls intelligent undead if their necromancer master is slain? Do they become free willed undead?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7974720#msg7974720
1. I haven't done anything in adv mode yet. It's there to consider, though it isn't an insta-raise-in-bulk the same way w.g. works, so we need to quantify it some other way if we do anything.
2. Answered with the Buttery_Mess question above.
3. Yeah, you can raise them. The resurrection fitness function has always required a central part (the upper body in most cases), to avoid the historical figure from ever being attached to two separate creatures (which would crash the game currently, but we'd like to support in some way later, for various weird situations.)
4. They are always free-willed, as much as entity members ever are, as described above, just due to not wanting to try to code up undead control.
Quote from: Moonshadow101
In the most recent front page update, you said that a Dwarven Civ can breach the underworld and be overtaken. At this point, a new civilization is formed.
Is this new demon-ruled Dwarven civ playable?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7976155#msg7976155
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7976288#msg7976288
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7976292#msg7976292
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7976338#msg7976338
Yeah, it's a goblin-demon civ.
Quote from: bieux
Considering you mentioned alliances in the second most recent devlog, is adding more diplomatic options and interactions to fort mode something planned for this release?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7976391#msg7976391
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7976465#msg7976465
It's on the table, though as the quoted people say, it's a bit off to have you acting as a proxy for civ-level interactions through most of the life of a typical fort. The embark scenarios later are meant to clarify this situation and give you a requested level of autonomy, often at some reasonable or unreasonable cost. For now, we might still do a bit just because it's there, but if it proves inopportune for whatever technical reason, it'll have to wait.
Quote from: Eschar
You noted on usesthis that you listen to music constantly; do you listen to music while programming DF and if so, what kind?
Yeah, I can't program without music. Various sorts... winamp tells me they are blues, folk, metal, electronic, electronica/dance, jazz, pop, reggae, industrial, hip hop/rap, R&B, rock, alternative, alternative & punk, classical, country, world, and other.
Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
Do the new organized religions interact with megabeast worship at all? I'm not sure if it's really that different since it isn't now other than megabeast worship being prompted by a megabeast attack (or two) and deity/force worship exists from the beginning of world generation. The megabeasts are simply listed as another deity when creating a temple to my knowledge. So are megabeasts that become objects of worship treated the same as regular gods and goddesses in this regard?
There still aren't prophets for non-deities, like the forces and megabeasts, which stops organized religions from happening. I'm not sure how long we'll keep this restriction, but since the forces aren't personified, they don't work with the current prophecies. They also aren't in the initial list, so they have a disadvantage in shrine building by the non-historical pops when they start, and they need a powerful state actor to create shrines for them. Then these shrines can turn around and finally affect the pops.
Post by: Real_bang on June 01, 2019, 01:37:37 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on June 01, 2019, 04:21:56 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 01, 2019, 04:57:00 pm
Quote from: ToadyOne
They have goblins so that they can behave normally, but they have a pack of 5-20 non-civ-leader underworld demons to make them scarier, and they also have a standard demon leader. All of these creatures are created on the spot, as the underworld is assumed to have unnumbered amounts of such beings currently, though the goblin is faked and indeed it just checks for the EVIL tag on them, the good old EVIL tag. I didn't bother simulating their underworld pops on account of time and the upcoming magic release clarification of these matters.
Interesting, so in theory any sentient creature with the [EVIL] tag could be a subsitute by modding or mundane chance like a foul blendec for instance, if im understanding it correctly. And yeah i remember the magic arc previous FotF discussions, things about eliminating all the demons due to just how many it chooses to populate the world with, or demons never properly dying and just reincarnating/generating from a catalyst in that plane.
Post by: Schmaven on June 01, 2019, 06:20:40 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 01, 2019, 06:42:45 pm
Do you have any plans to change how stockpiles work between now and the Myth & Magic release? Such as giving clothing stockpiles the ability to only accept worn out clothing?
I don't quite follow how the question is connected to itself, but i dont think Toady made any specific plans in the near term for that, it'd be more worthwhile to make a suggestion thread detailing why you'd think it'd be good with some practical examples if you can provide them.
Toady can change stockpiles or mundane mechanical things like that at any time, not that he needs to wait for a arc to do it when there's other bigger fish to fry like the terrain re-write all the magic systems etc, the big arc stuff is usually annotated with some directed goals on the devlog or threetoes stories.
Post by: Schmaven on June 01, 2019, 08:18:35 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 01, 2019, 08:28:32 pm
Removing workshops and replacing them with something more zone-based, which might in-turn entail some stockpile changes is, according to Toady, a save-breaking update that would need a big update like Mythgen to work on. So the question is valid. Are all stockpile updates off until workshops are replaced, or might the UI development arc include some stockpile changes?Do you have any plans to change how stockpiles work between now and the Myth & Magic release? Such as giving clothing stockpiles the ability to only accept worn out clothing?
I don't quite follow how the question is connected to itself, but i dont think Toady made any specific plans in the near term for that, it'd be more worthwhile to make a suggestion thread detailing why you'd think it'd be good with some practical examples if you can provide them.
Toady can change stockpiles or mundane mechanical things like that at any time, not that he needs to wait for a arc to do it when there's other bigger fish to fry like the terrain re-write all the magic systems etc, the big arc stuff is usually annotated with some directed goals on the devlog or threetoes stories.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 01, 2019, 09:05:32 pm
I know "magic tunes" is something for Mythgen to handle, but srirring battle music exists already, for example.
Post by: IncompetentFortressMaker on June 02, 2019, 01:20:01 pm
Post by: Schmaven on June 02, 2019, 03:59:39 pm
Something to add onto the previous message: Would you, as an adventurer, be able to play a sort of "marching tune"/etc. used during fights that you're a bystander to, similar to real-life military "marching tunes" played by drummers in military forces? This may not happen in some places at present, but it did once.
This reminds me of the Warcraft III Tauren unit with the battle drum skill that boosted the combat stats of nearby units. Sounds fun to do in adventure mode.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 02, 2019, 04:21:14 pm
I thought marching beats/music was/is used for marching, i.e. travel, while it would be rather useless in battle because of all the noise, so you'd miss most of it. Using instruments for signaling is a different issue.
Most of the time in history people fled from the vicinity of the battle field, rather than bring picnic baskets and musicians to watch the mess.
Post by: squamous on June 02, 2019, 06:06:39 pm
Also, I noticed necromancers might be able to alter the biome around them to an evil one. If that works, will it be modifiable via raws or hardcoded? Could you make megabeasts do it too, for example? Or have custom creatures spawned for different necromancer/creature types?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 02, 2019, 08:44:44 pm
@IncompetentFortressMaker: The thread convention is that questions to Toady are marked by (lime) green to make it easier for him to round them up when it comes time to answer the latest month's harvest. You can edit your post to do that, if desired.Fortunately for those of us who enjoy fun, Dwarf Fortress is a fantasy world simulatoras opposed to a history book. Made to reproduce those fun moments from a world of fantasy fiction.
I thought marching beats/music was/is used for marching, i.e. travel, while it would be rather useless in battle because of all the noise, so you'd miss most of it. Using instruments for signaling is a different issue.
Most of the time in history people fled from the vicinity of the battle field, rather than bring picnic baskets and musicians to watch the mess.
Which from time to time involves artists beating drums scaring the enemy, invoking the gods giving focus to the religious, and generally being inspirational. Realistic? Perhaps not. But why would you let realism hamper your fantasy worlds?
Post by: DG on June 02, 2019, 10:56:31 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 03, 2019, 03:33:42 am
I believe I've heard of Scottish units during WWII scaring their enemies with the hellish noise of bag pipes as they marched towards them, but not during the fighting itself. I think war drums have similarly been used in preparation for battle, so there may well be historical cases of using music (and dance) as a morale boost just prior to the engagement.
Now, if you want cave dragon pulled battle organs (or something else that might actually cut through the din, with or without magic support for both reach and effect) inspiring the troops to great deeds, that's indeed a fantasy issue without any(?) ties to history. While I wouldn't like the non magical version, I'd probably be too lazy to mod it out.
Post by: Enemy post on June 03, 2019, 02:42:49 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 04, 2019, 07:05:56 am
Toady, If a member of your fortress is ressurected as a intelligent undead by a fortress dwarf practitioner of necromancy in a relatively intact state (lets say drowning or freezing in ice) will they retain their civ links to just re-join your fortress population or become a abstract neutral unit/visitor like mindless zombies are?
I mean it wouldn't be outside of the possibility that a necromancer fortress could be self sustaining through raising intelligent undead-dwarves (and some other intelligent creatures if they will actively join/forced to join the fortress) to live life like they would have been alive, similar to the all vampire fortresses people have built in order to make use of immortality buffs it brings with no mortals to die in the crossfire when everyone is turned.
One other sort of related question: Can group leadership and mayoral etc votes in fortress be attributed to forced magical or conspiratorial links (intelligent undead unanimous'ly and loyally supporting the nomination of their master) to gain a majority?
I would think so, but some greater clarity on the point before Citizen Dwarf Kane uses a degree of fortress intimidation rolls and networking on a low level plot to become mayor of blockgravel would be handy, pretty much like how real life politics works and not dissimilar to the most popular dwarf winning already. (I realise i might have answer my own question but i would look forward to a response regardless)
Post by: MrWiggles on June 05, 2019, 02:37:48 pm
I'm just curious if he had it on his mind at all to make changes to how stockpiles work, that's all. I'm not suggesting specific changes really, merely providing an example of a possible change I've seen already in other threads. I know this thread is supposed to be just current development stuff, but I haven't found where stockpiles fit in anywhere yet. Some parts of stockpile changes might fit in with the army / military stuff, so I suppose that might be when we see changes to them.The answer if ToadyOne has plans or open to changes about any thing in the game, is always a yes. The game isnt in a polishing state. Stockpiles will probably get touch upon when they relate to whats being worked on currently. The Villian frame work doesnt seem to involve itself with stockpiles.
Post by: Schmaven on June 06, 2019, 03:31:06 am
I'm just curious if he had it on his mind at all to make changes to how stockpiles work, that's all. I'm not suggesting specific changes really, merely providing an example of a possible change I've seen already in other threads. I know this thread is supposed to be just current development stuff, but I haven't found where stockpiles fit in anywhere yet. Some parts of stockpile changes might fit in with the army / military stuff, so I suppose that might be when we see changes to them.The answer if ToadyOne has plans or open to changes about any thing in the game, is always a yes. The game isnt in a polishing state. Stockpiles will probably get touch upon when they relate to whats being worked on currently. The Villian frame work doesnt seem to involve itself with stockpiles.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm asking when we might see changes to them, not if there will be changes in general. And also, I'm not suggesting any specific changes. Just curious if stockpiles are in the current plans between now and the myth & magic release.
Post by: LordBaal on June 06, 2019, 06:24:08 am
The answer for "when?" whenever "X" is not directly related to current devlogs is almost always "some point in the nexr 10 years".
Stockpiles sure need rework, is happening now? Nope. Will it happen next after this release? Maybe, maybe not. Will it happen? Absolutely.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on June 06, 2019, 08:06:00 am
Quote from: Mishtal
Could you say a few words about whether (or not?) the accessibility improvements for the steam release will include any changes to things like workshops, zones, burrows, and the various selection methods?
E.g. Different ways of marking multiple tiles at once for various designation actions, workshops functioning different than zones / locations, that type of thing.Quote from: Tarnunifying all the workshop/zones/etc. was part of a larger project and might be a bit much, but doing different mousy rectangles and that sort of thing definitely in the mix. there will be an uncomfortable point where we have to decide just how much we can bite off in terms of wider rewrites, tradeoff between the delay and the first impression
Post by: Criperum on June 08, 2019, 08:08:39 am
If so, will they try to deliberately kill necromancer to lower the threat or just fight wall on wall or it's too much for current AI to demand?
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 09, 2019, 03:27:49 am
I could be too early to ask but if a player-necromancer gathers a lot of zombies will AI civilizations attack him (ally to attack him)?
If so, will they try to deliberately kill necromancer to lower the threat or just fight wall on wall or it's too much for current AI to demand?
Player adventurer's can conquer hamlets but other civ's wouldn't care unless you were a real civilization entity, any "war" with you is by proxy of your home civilization as a valid target.
Post by: Criperum on June 09, 2019, 12:25:59 pm
Post by: KingEdwarf3890 on June 10, 2019, 06:04:01 pm
Post by: KingEdwarf3890 on June 10, 2019, 09:33:04 pm
Post by: Buttery_Mess on June 13, 2019, 10:29:50 am
Post by: voliol on June 13, 2019, 10:57:26 am
Forget my last message, I didn't know soulless undead used a different histfig. Still maybe make sure it doesn't crash tho. Also, last I knew there was some hard-coded thing where you couldn't resume playing as an adventurer if they got turned into a night troll or zombie while retired. I want there to be, at the very least, a way to work around that and play as a night troll before the Big Wait. It won't kill me if you don't have time, but please?
Are the intelligent undead soulless though? We know they retain much of their old identities, maybe this has to do with having souls. Either way it will be complicated as the normal raised undead still don't. The process will have to look something like this:
Have a live werebeast => Chop some limbs off => Reanimate the limbs into normal undead => Wait until full moon, the limbs regrow whole werebeast bodies => Smash the heads of these normal undead werebeasts, so that they die but still have intact upper bodies fit for resurrection => Use the resurrection interaction on those bodies => Have the game crash on you
Now that I think about it further though, this all depends on whether the bodies of former zombies are still considered to be of the original histfig or not - If the connection is lost then doing it will cause nothing. You'll have to be able to resurrect former zombies as well, so many variables are still up in the air.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 14, 2019, 06:35:36 am
I dont think zombie werebeasts would work without the added application of magic, neither do i think sentient undead retain histfig interactions like still being able to breathe fire for ressurected dragons lucky enough to have the faculties they had in life despite being animal.
Post by: Eric Blank on June 14, 2019, 12:22:03 pm
Assuming that's the case, do they show up hostile, trying to sneak in in ambush from the get-go? Or will we have to screen out other visitors?
Post by: Death Dragon on June 14, 2019, 01:39:53 pm
Related to the story you posted recently about Ustuth; since obviously assassination plots are now being carried out post-worldgen, do players have to worry about assassin's getting into the fort and killing our nobles? We don't get any special protection from those cases, right?I asked about this some months ago:
Assuming that's the case, do they show up hostile, trying to sneak in in ambush from the get-go? Or will we have to screen out other visitors?
"Do you plan on making NPC assassin do their deeds secretly in a fort mode fort, like vampires do? What I mean is, will they be able to kill someone and leave the fort, passing by other dwarves without anyone noticing that they are a/ were the murderer?
It would be a bummer if they automatically just turned into "invader" status after the murder because that would mean no assassin would ever leave a player fort alive, like the guys who try to steal artifacts."
Toady:
"I hadn't quite gamed out fort-mode assassination details; I think the way you describe is probably best, as a parallel to the "successful" assassinations from world gen. Sometimes, the w.g. ones 'fail', but there's still a duel where the assassin wins; this would probably be analogous to the invader version. Undetected murder probably involves them succeeding in their stealth rolls until they are adjacent to the target, and then rolling a good attack, which it would then fudge and just turn into a murder (like the fell mood) -- if they aren't sneaking (because they are a visitor or a citizen), they'd just need one stealth roll adjacent to the target to simulate the sudden attack, say, and then the good attack roll. The automatic fell murder strike successes have always needed some sort of additional justification or material check, but we can ignore that for now."
Post by: Nopenope on June 15, 2019, 01:11:51 am
Post by: iceball3 on June 15, 2019, 05:46:41 am
Quote
The vanilla ones are all generally outcasts, since communities all kick them out for not aging after a time, and they often pre-empt that by leaving first, and see plots as required.
Is there a specific ethic concerning this? Will goblins and elves be invariably kicked out of human communities as a rule as a result of their extended lifespans being offensive to mere mortals?
That also brings to question, will goblin and elven necromancers become integrated assets to said goblin and elven communities, or is that kind of cross-interaction for much later releases?
Post by: iceball3 on June 15, 2019, 05:47:32 am
Regarding your concerns about healthcare, have you ever thought about relocating to a country without these kinds of issues (e.g. most of Europe)?I imagine naturalizing to a nation, or receiving a green card to a nation will both be difficult for self-employed individuals, yes?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 15, 2019, 08:25:06 am
Thanks for the answers, Toady!I would expect the ethics involved to be unnatural resistance to aging, not the innate one of elves and goblins. Logically, that also ought to mean that goblin and elven necros wouldn't have to flee as long as they don't practice their art in a manner that would raise suspicion. However, I also suspect that the logic may not (yet) check for racial non aging protection against detection, causing goblin and elven necros to behave as ones from mortal races.QuoteThe vanilla ones are all generally outcasts, since communities all kick them out for not aging after a time, and they often pre-empt that by leaving first, and see plots as required.
Is there a specific ethic concerning this? Will goblins and elves be invariably kicked out of human communities as a rule as a result of their extended lifespans being offensive to mere mortals?
That also brings to question, will goblin and elven necromancers become integrated assets to said goblin and elven communities, or is that kind of cross-interaction for much later releases?
Also note that there aren't many goblin and elven necros because life extension isn't an issue for them, so the reasons for them to become necros would be the ones of "science" and power (and possibly some version of grief, with intelligent undead). However, goblins quite often have the goal of "rule the world"...
Post by: Nopenope on June 15, 2019, 09:55:26 am
Regarding your concerns about healthcare, have you ever thought about relocating to a country without these kinds of issues (e.g. most of Europe)?I imagine naturalizing to a nation, or receiving a green card to a nation will both be difficult for self-employed individuals, yes?
No need to acquire citizenship, if you're a resident (or even if you're just passing by) you should have access to most of the benefits in the home country (there's a reason some Brits go over to France for some medical tourism etc.). With a steady income and a citizenship from a friendly nation there's little reason to imagine the EU would deny him long term residence.
Post by: iceball3 on June 18, 2019, 03:11:56 am
Visiting another nation to get treatment sounds like a nice idea for mitigating the cost of some worrisome conditions, but travel, which may sometimes have to be frequent in some cases, comes with it's own sorts of costs.
Post by: Schmaven on June 18, 2019, 11:58:25 am
Post by: Sizik on June 18, 2019, 01:08:24 pm
Post by: Ggobs on June 18, 2019, 02:41:18 pm
Post by: LordBaal on June 19, 2019, 11:03:14 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 19, 2019, 06:11:23 pm
And how much would it cost for Dwarf Fortress fans to pay full insurance for Threetoe and Toady? Apart from donations, perhaps a gofundme or some such thing could be held. Not that I could personally afford to chip in even a penny but there's the idea at least.I suspect anyone able and willing to pay the monthly costs of insurance for Zach and Tarn are already paying them monthly for making Dwarf Fortress. Just a guess though.
Also, the point is that monthly donations aren't a stable inflow of cash. Doesn't help if the economy collapses and half the rich donors die a couple of months before they suddenly need insurance. Thus the new business plan.
Now, if you're saying a Gofundme could raise enough money in one go to put aside and cover all medical costs for the rest of their lives, then sure you could do that. Gotta ask yourselves (and no doubt they would) if there aren't more worthy causes to donate that much money to though. What if they retire before getting sick? Do they have to give the money back? Not very reassuring.
Post by: LordBaal on June 19, 2019, 06:47:21 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 20, 2019, 12:33:59 pm
How much money are we talking about here?
Given a mundane EMT transport to the hospital alone, with no in-transit treatment other than a vitals check, can push 1000 bucks...
Post by: Bumber on June 20, 2019, 02:06:17 pm
How much money are we talking about here?
Given a mundane EMT transport to the hospital alone, with no in-transit treatment other than a vitals check, can push 1000 bucks...
$300 to wrap a bandage on your arm, IIRC, billed separately from the doctor's fee.
Post by: LordBaal on June 21, 2019, 05:35:06 pm
Post by: Random_Dragon on June 22, 2019, 12:11:20 pm
But... I mean insurances doesn't mean you pay an x flat ammount per month or year (in monthly payments anyway) and that covers almost anything, or at least the basic stuff? That's how it used to work here.
Assloads of people in the US are uninsured because variously, either the payments are still expensive as fuck, or else the coverage is insufficient. People who end up qualifying for medicare are about the only ones that can get anything resembling decent coverage without paying an arm and a leg (and from experience with relatives that have to use it, wrangling medicare to not deny random shit for arbitrary reasons, actually be prompt about literally anything, get doctors that accept it, etc is a constant struggle).
Post by: Magistrum on June 24, 2019, 08:29:46 pm
that covers almost anything, or at least the basic stuff?All the affordable insurance plans won't pay for anything, mostly they just throw in a few coins if you cry enough.
They usually don't cover everything involved in a treatment either. For example, covering the surgery, but not the anesthesia or the operation room use. Covering hospital stay but not nurse service and post-op medication.
To top it of, after you went through all your trouble and got a top-notch plan they will tell you that one of the providers involved are not included in their service network and you get stuck with the full bill of the individual service.
I thought Brazil had it rough.
Post by: falcc on June 25, 2019, 11:43:17 am
1) Did villains end up with plots to steal pets?
2) Can you give animals to people in order to earn their favor?
3) If people see an animal they like is hanging out with you in adventure mode, will their improved mood make them any more amenable to talking with you or traveling with you?
4) Before the big wait, will people talk more about their favorite animals, colors, foods, and art styles?
Right now you can parse out if somebody likes a tone of music based on their responses, which is WILD, but it's hard to get much of a personality picture in adventure mode even with extended interactions since they don't need to eat or anything.
5) Can you ride a horse that isn't yours? If you jump on a horse that isn't yours, what does the horse think? What do people of the village it belongs to think about it? What about if you didn't tell it to leave but just sat there, just having landed on someone's horse? Is that like being seen in sneak mode?
6) If you start with a bunch of cows with your adventuring group, are they all pets, or can you just have a herd's worth of food to live off of through the barren winter months?
7) Where does it draw the pool of embarkable adventure mode animals from? Could that pool be expanded through the concentrated efforts of the player, either in adventure mode or through domesticating in fortresses?
8 ) Can adventurers enact the cattle raid style missions they can currently do if they retire in a fort?
9) What if, hypothetically, an adventurer leapt onto a dragon? What if it'd been tamed by a fortress, or was a dragon of a group not at war with the player's civilization? What if it *hadn't* been tamed by a fortress? What does the dragon think about all this and could it ever end well for the player with an extremely good animal handling roll and some foreplanning?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 25, 2019, 12:03:21 pm
7: I'd expect it to be your civ. A civ's pool of resources is determined at the placement of the starting site currently, and I see no "villain" reason to change that now (suitable for the economy arc?). Currently fortresses cannot domesticate animal species. They can increase the training knowledge level, and that trickles back to the civ at a very slow pace, but it can never reach the domesticated level.
Post by: LordBaal on June 25, 2019, 09:12:24 pm
that covers almost anything, or at least the basic stuff?All the affordable insurance plans won't pay for anything, mostly they just throw in a few coins if you cry enough.
They usually don't cover everything involved in a treatment either. For example, covering the surgery, but not the anesthesia or the operation room use. Covering hospital stay but not nurse service and post-op medication.
To top it of, after you went through all your trouble and got a top-notch plan they will tell you that one of the providers involved are not included in their service network and you get stuck with the full bill of the individual service.
I thought Brazil had it rough.
That thoroughly sucks. Here it used to be that you payed X amount monthly and you got an X coverage on virtually anything. I.e. more than once I got treated on the e.r. with 0 charge. Then bougth the medicines from my pocket but with the invoices claimed full reimbursement. Each time you used it, it eat of the total coverage but then there were special extensions that activated on special circumstances (surgery, hospitalization, ambulance services) which were several times the total coverage.
The only thing it didn't covered was dental.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on June 25, 2019, 09:28:17 pm
Post by: Inarius on June 26, 2019, 02:04:07 am
And I'm not trying to sound rude or domineering, but just...please ?
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on June 26, 2019, 10:12:49 am
1. I recall there was an elf from a dev log who was notable for multiple simultaneous lovers and affairs. What sort of personality traits/orientation results would bring about such an outcome. Did you look into why that was?
2. A question for later down the line, but, do you have any preliminary ideas on how you want to implement boats? Aside from simply implementing them, of course. I ask because the possibility of having some control over what they look like would be a big bonus for me.
3. In regards to the court/household positions, do they appear anywhere outside of world gen/legends mode? And are they moddable in any way currently?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 26, 2019, 05:14:04 pm
Got a few questions for this time around. Please pardon any repeats of others' questions:On boats:
1. I recall there was an elf from a dev log who was notable for multiple simultaneous lovers and affairs. What sort of personality traits/orientation results would bring about such an outcome. Did you look into why that was?
2. A question for later down the line, but, do you have any preliminary ideas on how you want to implement boats? Aside from simply implementing them, of course. I ask because the possibility of having some control over what they look like would be a big bonus for me.
3. In regards to the court/household positions, do they appear anywhere outside of world gen/legends mode? And are they moddable in any way currently?
https://www.pcgamer.com/why-the-creator-of-dwarf-fortress-is-really-excited-about-boats/
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on June 26, 2019, 06:03:14 pm
On boats:
https://www.pcgamer.com/why-the-creator-of-dwarf-fortress-is-really-excited-about-boats/
Aha! Now I'm super hyped for boats! :D
Post by: Beag on June 27, 2019, 03:07:02 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 27, 2019, 04:34:41 pm
Since villains will now be able to send messages in some cases will their messengers also have to be in on the plot or would the messages be delivered in written form like letters to keep the messenger oblivious?I might be wrong, but "abstractly" in this case probably means there won't be a messenger. Just an incriminating message. The messengers system doesn't go beyond Player Fortress to Player Hillocks yet and doesn't seem to have been expanded (might still be though, I guess).
Post by: Aid on June 28, 2019, 03:14:46 pm
Post by: voliol on June 29, 2019, 06:06:17 am
Hi Tarn, you will change the mode of legends for release in Steam, if so it will be adding a mouse scroll or something more complicate?Tarn should be able to give a more complete answer, but we know that most parts of the gui are being looked at for the steam release, and that mouse support will likely be omnipresent. Zach is currently working on redesigning these menus, so if he has gotten to the legends mode already I suppose there could already be a close-to-finished concept.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 29, 2019, 10:04:03 pm
(In the upcoming release) - Will villaneous adventurers be able to send messages to their minions too? Or are we limited to direct interactions with our party members? I can see how it might be useful to send a message to call your best fighter back home from his assassination plot when you discover the local necromancer is planning to take you out.
Will you expand the messenger system worldwide this time, or will it all be abstracted slow-moving email between villains and their minions for the foreseeable future?
Post by: Toady One on July 01, 2019, 05:10:22 pm
Quote from: Schmaven
Do you have any plans to change how stockpiles work between now and the Myth & Magic release? Such as giving clothing stockpiles the ability to only accept worn out clothing?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977598#msg7977598
Schmaven (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977633#msg7977633
Shonai_dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977640#msg7977640
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7979715#msg7979715
Schmaven (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7979934#msg7979934
LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7979975#msg7979975
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7980005#msg7980005
People pretty much covered it. We don't have specific plans yet, but it's possible we'll see various smaller changes before the Steam/itch release. Larger rewrites to the mechanical systems would be ill-advised as they might introduce more problems than they solve during a stretch where we want the game to become more cleaned up.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
With the new strategic combat system for adventurer parties, will the party bard (assuming an rpg player chooses a performance focused skillset in lieu of combat skill) have anything to do in combat besides watch and remember the tale for later? Or is it solely fighters up front, covering fire from the ranger and thief hides in the shadows for this release?
I know "magic tunes" is something for Mythgen to handle, but srirring battle music exists already, for example.
IncompetentFortressMaker: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977946#msg7977946
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978046#msg7978046
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978064#msg7978064
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978211#msg7978211
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978272#msg7978272
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978330#msg7978330
For non-magical situations, I lean toward realistic musical effects. There are some real-world applications, in larger-number situations mostly, but there could be room for certain distractions or other needling matter. Not doing anything with it for this release.
Quote from: squamous
You mentioned something interesting about how demons can take over dwarven civilizations that dig too deep. I am wondering, what happens if you generate a world without any procedurally generated demons, but create custom creatures which will inhabit that layer instead? Say, I made my own demonic race that inhabited layer 5 of the underground, would they spawn in the place of demons (and alongside goblins assuming they are present) or are procedurally generated demons an absolute requirement for hellish takeovers of civilizations?
Also, I noticed necromancers might be able to alter the biome around them to an evil one. If that works, will it be modifiable via raws or hardcoded? Could you make megabeasts do it too, for example? Or have custom creatures spawned for different necromancer/creature types?
It currently requires a creature with the EVIL tag in a civ, since I didn't write it as a pure beast attack. In the current version, FEATURE_BEAST, TITAN, DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON are restricted tags, and in order for there to be demons, the DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON tags are used. However, I don't recall why those are restricted tags. It might break something horribly if I allow them and modders use them, but I've gone ahead and allowed it anyway. It'll be an at-your-own-risk thing until we sort out any bugs from it, but it's not as key as tags like GENERATED, which the game uses for internal bookkeeping.
I didn't try to make a raw format for the evil regions. The myth stuff will just make it all irrelevant, and the release has gone long already.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Toady, If a member of your fortress is ressurected as a intelligent undead by a fortress dwarf practitioner of necromancy in a relatively intact state (lets say drowning or freezing in ice) will they retain their civ links to just re-join your fortress population or become a abstract neutral unit/visitor like mindless zombies are?
I mean it wouldn't be outside of the possibility that a necromancer fortress could be self sustaining through raising intelligent undead-dwarves (and some other intelligent creatures if they will actively join/forced to join the fortress) to live life like they would have been alive, similar to the all vampire fortresses people have built in order to make use of immortality buffs it brings with no mortals to die in the crossfire when everyone is turned.
One other sort of related question: Can group leadership and mayoral etc votes in fortress be attributed to forced magical or conspiratorial links (intelligent undead unanimous'ly and loyally supporting the nomination of their master) to gain a majority?
I would think so, but some greater clarity on the point before Citizen Dwarf Kane uses a degree of fortress intimidation rolls and networking on a low level plot to become mayor of blockgravel would be handy, pretty much like how real life politics works and not dissimilar to the most popular dwarf winning already. (I realise i might have answer my own question but i would look forward to a response regardless)
I'm not sure that'll happen at all yet. In world generation, they only raise intelligent undead if that have something to do with them (ie, their own conquest goals and entity.)
I'm not sure how fortress mode coup plots will happen either. There aren't elections in world gen, so they haven't had to run that way yet. Compromising a majority of voters would be way more work for them, the way things work now. There also isn't any formal definition for magical modes of control, so nothing would happen with the voting even if an intelligent undead somehow ended up as a fort migrant etc.
Quote from: Criperum
I could be too early to ask but if a player-necromancer gathers a lot of zombies will AI civilizations attack him (ally to attack him)?
If so, will they try to deliberately kill necromancer to lower the threat or just fight wall on wall or it's too much for current AI to demand?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7980808#msg7980808
Criperum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7980900#msg7980900
You can't currently declare your entity as a necromancer one, so they can't see you that way. It'll need better detectors later than just using the world gen flag for it, but we're not there yet.
Quote from: KingEdwarf3890
Yo Toady, I think I found a bug based on 1. your statements about intelligent undead, and 2. current werebeast game mechanics. If you have a werebeast and you slice it into pieces and resurrect them just before the full moon, you can actually get multiple whole bodies belonging to the same histfig, or at least you could last I knew. What if you took those bodies and applied the "intelligent undead" spell to more than one of them, wouldn't that crash the game?
Forget my last message, I didn't know soulless undead used a different histfig. Still maybe make sure it doesn't crash tho. Also, last I knew there was some hard-coded thing where you couldn't resume playing as an adventurer if they got turned into a night troll or zombie while retired. I want there to be, at the very least, a way to work around that and play as a night troll before the Big Wait. It won't kill me if you don't have time, but please?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7982642#msg7982642
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7983000#msg7983000
Yeah, animation removes the body's attachment from the historical figure.
There aren't night troll conversions in-play, so that won't come up.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Will adventurer mode party members be able to spar with one another non-lethally? Or will they at least be able to fight without wanting to murder one another?
It's the same as companions right now, when you're controlling one of them. There are things that need to be handled there, since it'd be odd to swap control if they are really going at it. I just have a note to 'deal with it', which'll involve... something or other, ha ha ha. We'll see how the flow goes on that one! Even if there is a sparring option, I imagine people will still want to murder their own party members on occasion, for, um, roleplaying reasons and so forth.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Related to the story you posted recently about Ustuth; since obviously assassination plots are now being carried out post-worldgen, do players have to worry about assassin's getting into the fort and killing our nobles? We don't get any special protection from those cases, right?
Assuming that's the case, do they show up hostile, trying to sneak in in ambush from the get-go? Or will we have to screen out other visitors?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7983158#msg7983158
The main reason I put assassination plots in the game was so that your fort would be targeted, he he he. Death Dragon handled the second set of questions.
Quote from: Nopenope
Regarding your concerns about healthcare, have you ever thought about relocating to a country without these kinds of issues (e.g. most of Europe)?
Sure. But it's not entirely simple. I still have ties in the US.
Quote from: iceball3
Is there a specific ethic concerning [necromancer expulsion]? Will goblins and elves be invariably kicked out of human communities as a rule as a result of their extended lifespans being offensive to mere mortals?
That also brings to question, will goblin and elven necromancers become integrated assets to said goblin and elven communities, or is that kind of cross-interaction for much later releases?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7983464#msg7983464
Goblins and elves don't get kicked out because they are already assumed to be immortal - it has a check against that. So there hasn't been a need for specific rules regarding them. If a goblin or elf becomes a necromancer somehow, then nobody will in fact notice, unless they actually go off and form a undead conquest entity, which they won't feel so strongly about, since they aren't being expelled and continue to live happily. They also don't use their powers when in this situation. Necromancer vampire elves, or whatever, will still be persecuted, over the bloodsucking, and I believe that'll cause them to form an undead conquest entity once they are expelled. There's still a lot to do, but we're generally holding off on the 'what people think of wizards' stuff until the magic release.
Quote from: Ggobs
Will crime syndicate system and the bandit system be merged? Or will they be kept separate? TIA
It remains an odd mess. The mead hall rulers, criminals, bandits and villains should all be some type of the same thing, and through plots and entities, this is partially true, but they still think about the world differently. I was hoping to bring criminal organizations more into the mix this time, but I didn't end up doing much with it.
Quote from: falcc
1) Did villains end up with plots to steal pets?
2) Can you give animals to people in order to earn their favor?
3) If people see an animal they like is hanging out with you in adventure mode, will their improved mood make them any more amenable to talking with you or traveling with you?
4) Before the big wait, will people talk more about their favorite animals, colors, foods, and art styles?
Right now you can parse out if somebody likes a tone of music based on their responses, which is WILD, but it's hard to get much of a personality picture in adventure mode even with extended interactions since they don't need to eat or anything.
5) Can you ride a horse that isn't yours? If you jump on a horse that isn't yours, what does the horse think? What do people of the village it belongs to think about it? What about if you didn't tell it to leave but just sat there, just having landed on someone's horse? Is that like being seen in sneak mode?
6) If you start with a bunch of cows with your adventuring group, are they all pets, or can you just have a herd's worth of food to live off of through the barren winter months?
7) Where does it draw the pool of embarkable adventure mode animals from? Could that pool be expanded through the concentrated efforts of the player, either in adventure mode or through domesticating in fortresses?
8 ) Can adventurers enact the cattle raid style missions they can currently do if they retire in a fort?
9) What if, hypothetically, an adventurer leapt onto a dragon? What if it'd been tamed by a fortress, or was a dragon of a group not at war with the player's civilization? What if it *hadn't* been tamed by a fortress? What does the dragon think about all this and could it ever end well for the player with an extremely good animal handling roll and some foreplanning?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7987505#msg7987505
1) Ha ha, nope. The villainous pet stuff has been in the notes for like a decade and I never get there.
2) You might be able to trade your small pets, but I don't have anything like favor, generally, aside from vaguely related reps that don't come up, and the new relationship data, which hasn't been moved to play yet (though that at least will happen before the release.)
3) It doesn't do anything like that. The joining calculation is pretty simple, based on rep and party size, etc.
4) I don't expect so. As you say, they don't interact with these things yet, and we won't have e.g. adv mode eating until the schedules and economy return.
5) I believe they have to be tame currently, but they don't have to belong to you. As with many things, nobody cares.
6) They are all pets currently. At some point we'll need to distinguish them as starting livestock, when that matters more and you can properly pasture/herd/drive them.
7) They come from the civ. Hmm, as I recall, the domesticated fort animals don't get added to the pet pool? It looks like your fort mode civ can be updated up to 'expert trainer' knowledge, but not full domestication? Probably because of various issues. Once we can cross that final threshold, it would transfer to adv mode.
8) Hmm, you can lead them away, but I'm not sure what happens after that. They don't join the part in the same way as pets, though we'll want to cross that boundary as well at some point.
9) I think it would need to be a tame one. Then it's like, cool, I guess, ha ha.
Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
1. I recall there was an elf from a dev log who was notable for multiple simultaneous lovers and affairs. What sort of personality traits/orientation results would bring about such an outcome. Did you look into why that was?
2. A question for later down the line, but, do you have any preliminary ideas on how you want to implement boats? Aside from simply implementing them, of course. I ask because the possibility of having some control over what they look like would be a big bonus for me.
3. In regards to the court/household positions, do they appear anywhere outside of world gen/legends mode? And are they moddable in any way currently?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7988116#msg7988116
1. Elves live a long time, so this tends to happen more often here, but it can happen for anybody. I didn't end up investigating that particular case. I didn't tie a personality trait or value to it, as I recollect, and I'm not quite sure which one fits there, though maybe there's something appropriately (it could just use lustful or something, though that isn't quite right either, since the game just doesn't understand social mores of this type yet.)
2. Shonai_Dweller provided the link here.
3. They just hang out throughout the world right now. They are generated, similar to some existing generated positions, so they don't have a modding link, and I'm not sure what'll end up happening there, but it'll be a while before we try to provide more variable and interesting structure to entities (that's the part after the magic release.)
Quote from: Beag
Since villains will now be able to send messages in some cases will their messengers also have to be in on the plot or would the messages be delivered in written form like letters to keep the messenger oblivious?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7988526#msg7988526
Yeah, by abstract, I meant messenger-free. I was worried about the historical figure count if we gave a name to every messenger, though we'll be able to figure out a compromise at some point. Mostly, though, villains either go themselves or have somebody physical and historical that they use, which is messenger-like in some important practical senses.
Quote from: Aid
Hi Tarn, you will change the mode of legends for release in Steam, if so it will be adding a mouse scroll or something more complicate?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7989160#msg7989160
Similar to the stockpile question, it's possible there will be broader changes. It's more important to get the main experience playing more smoothly, but at some point, if things go well, legends starts to count there as well. Still, if we just end up doing some mouse-type additions there, that could be it.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
(In the upcoming release) - Will villaneous adventurers be able to send messages to their minions too? Or are we limited to direct interactions with our party members? I can see how it might be useful to send a message to call your best fighter back home from his assassination plot when you discover the local necromancer is planning to take you out.
Will you expand the messenger system worldwide this time, or will it all be abstracted slow-moving email between villains and their minions for the foreseeable future?
Messages are a property of high-level entity position holders, and we've just ignored that entirely with adventurers so far. I'm not sure that in particular will be moved over, since it's supposed to be an actual person (or bird or whatever) doing it, and as an adventurer, you can just ask an additional companion to fill that role. If a handler asks another companion to return, I mean, we'll probably get to things along those lines. Just not with the abstract system.
For this time, I put in the new system since I'm not doing something else. For later, it would be nice to explore the mechanism, without blowing out the number of historical figures or moving parts.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 02, 2019, 02:52:57 am
Quote from: squamous
I am wondering, what happens if you generate a world without any procedurally generated demons, but create custom creatures which will inhabit that layer instead? Say, I made my own demonic race that inhabited layer 5 of the underground, would they spawn in the place of demons (and alongside goblins assuming they are present) or are procedurally generated demons an absolute requirement for hellish takeovers of civilizations?Quote from: toadyoneIn the current version, FEATURE_BEAST, TITAN, DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON are restricted tags, and in order for there to be demons, the DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON tags are used. It might break something horribly if I allow them and modders use them, but I've gone ahead and allowed it anyway.
I think it would be a great opportunity for the modding community to flex their muscles and get a taste of maybe what is to come regarding myth and magic if they could play with the restricted fields a little bit. Writing in your own demon's out of the kind of community creations that probably deserve that praise like the work of ZM5's very unnatural sets of monsters.
- I've heard of modifications that drop pseudo demon creatures into the same inhabited layer in the underworld via subterranean biome depth leading into a battle royale against crazed demons much of the time in a effort to pad the place out a bit so i do think there's a underlying want from the community for it.
Summoning a fire imp from a slab would be pretty sucky for the effort to generate it, but summoning multiple vaguely loyal fire imps in a fight from a incantation depending on the attributive cost might actually not be so bad
Post by: voliol on July 02, 2019, 04:44:18 am
Thanks for the answers ToadyQuote from: squamousI am wondering, what happens if you generate a world without any procedurally generated demons, but create custom creatures which will inhabit that layer instead? Say, I made my own demonic race that inhabited layer 5 of the underground, would they spawn in the place of demons (and alongside goblins assuming they are present) or are procedurally generated demons an absolute requirement for hellish takeovers of civilizations?Quote from: toadyoneIn the current version, FEATURE_BEAST, TITAN, DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON are restricted tags, and in order for there to be demons, the DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON tags are used. It might break something horribly if I allow them and modders use them, but I've gone ahead and allowed it anyway.
I think it would be a great opportunity for the modding community to flex their muscles and get a taste of maybe what is to come regarding myth and magic if they could play with the restricted fields a little bit. Writing in your own demon's out of the kind of community creations that probably deserve that praise like the work of ZM5's very unnatural sets of monsters.If such a scenario did occur with freedom to write demons on file (at own risk obviously), would we see mainstream integration of tags like [DEMON] on lesser creatures such as fire imps with a bit more context on what defines a demonic leader vs small fry like them by using [POWER] on file, versus other definitions of player created ambient wildlife and intelligent races that may be demonic themselves?
- I've heard of modifications that drop pseudo demon creatures into the same inhabited layer in the underworld via subterranean biome depth leading into a battle royale against crazed demons much of the time in a effort to pad the place out a bit so i do think there's a underlying want from the community for it.
Summoning a fire imp from a slab would be pretty sucky for the effort to generate it, but summoning multiple vaguely loyal fire imps in a fight from a incantation depending on the attributive cost might actually not be so bad
I assume the DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON tokens have already been set to no longer be restricted, so they won’t be in the upcoming version. Exactly how they work, however, ever Toady seems to not fully know. It will likely be chaotic or maybe it won’t. We (the modders) will have to figure that out.
Either way the system will be reworked fully during the Big Wait, so I don’t think any changes to it will be done before that.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 02, 2019, 04:49:11 am
Post by: Knight Otu on July 02, 2019, 06:39:47 am
Especially for opening up those tags. ;D
Post by: Eric Blank on July 02, 2019, 11:31:16 am
I wonder if demon is like crazed and makes them hostile to everything. Hmm, maybe not smart to summon those...
Post by: FrankVill on July 03, 2019, 04:02:00 pm
However, I suppose in th future "three games" could melt in one and you could modify anything in worldgen that would make changes directly into adventure and fortress modes (it would be ideal).
So, these are my cuestions:
In what degree are the three games currently connected at the development level?
What elements of the world generation could be reflected in both modes automatically after their modification?
And is it possible to achieve a definitive fusion that could in a way facilitate your work?
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 03, 2019, 05:33:57 pm
If I understood it well, Dwarf Fortress is currently "three-games-in-one", because each one of them has different mechanisms. For implementing the new villain features, you begun to modify worldgen in first place, after that you'll change some adventure mode things and in last place you'll do the same in fortress mode.The main reason World Gen, Fortress Mode, and Adventure Mode require different coding is because of their scales. World Gen is on the global scale and typically spans centuries of history that has to actually get done in a somewhat reasonable time, meaning the mechanics have to be somewhat simplified and abstracted. As far as I understand, the activated world (i.e. what's happening in the world outside of the vicinity of the adventurer or fortress) is similar to the world gen history, but has to take more complicated data structures generated during play into consideration, and can also afford to have a higher level of detail/complexity because of the slower rate (rather than spending 5 minutes generating each year of history, a year's worth of history in game play is generated in the background over the course of hours).
However, I suppose in th future "three games" could melt in one and you could modify anything in worldgen that would make changes directly into adventure and fortress modes (it would be ideal).
So, these are my cuestions:
In what degree are the three games currently connected at the development level?
What elements of the world generation could be reflected in both modes automatically after their modification?
And is it possible to achieve a definitive fusion that could in a way facilitate your work?
Differences between Adventure Mode and Fortress Mode are required both because they operate on different time scales and as well as with different focus (a single adventurer -> party versus a fortress entity), although some mechanics can be and have been merged to some extent, and I believe it's a goal to make much of those mechanics (such as crafting) essentially the same in both modes so that introduction of something new can apply to both modes more or less as a result of being introduced and then following the standard template. It can also be noted that the third mode, Legends Mode, isn't the same as World Gen, but rather World Gen PLUS whatever happens during the period fortresses and adventurers are played in the world, both in the background and as a result of player actions.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 04, 2019, 02:29:56 am
If you really did open up those tags for the next version, that is incredible and I love it! Been making demons for players to summon/transform into anyway, but now they can actually be treated as such by the game.
I wonder if demon is like crazed and makes them hostile to everything. Hmm, maybe not smart to summon those...
That was kind of the direction my question was going towards, differences between on-file entities and usual demons, as incase we don't recieve a fire imp (I mean if the tag can be applied, why not?) tower lord without supporting tags in the usual context of "Oh this creature has [POWER]" rather than the sole arguement of being demonic.
Post by: voliol on July 04, 2019, 03:57:54 am
If you really did open up those tags for the next version, that is incredible and I love it! Been making demons for players to summon/transform into anyway, but now they can actually be treated as such by the game.
I wonder if demon is like crazed and makes them hostile to everything. Hmm, maybe not smart to summon those...
That was kind of the direction my question was going towards, differences between on-file entities and usual demons, as incase we don't recieve a fire imp (I mean if the tag can be applied, why not?) tower lord without supporting tags in the usual context of "Oh this creature has [POWER]" rather than the sole arguement of being demonic.
The question is whether the goblins currently care whether their demon overlords have [POWER] or not, or if they simply form their civs around whatever [UNIQUE_DEMON] has struck up a deal with a deity and fled the underworld. If the [POWER] token is irrelevant, then what matters is whether the game picks a random existing [UNIQUE_DEMON] creature for elevation, or if it generates* a new one on-spot, in which case adding it to a creature won’t do much. [UNIQUE_DEMON] is relevant, as not just any underworld-dwelling demon can become an overlord. In fact, the overlord demons can’t be found in the underworld.
The normal [DEMON] token I would suppose is for the initial wave of demons, and possibly to prevent demons from attacking each other.
I also suppose slightly different routines could be used for the original goblin-civs, and the new ones created as a byproduct of dwarves digging too deep.
*From the June reply we know that the demons (in the new demon-civs) are ”created on the spot”. We don’t know whether the leader is generated then though, as ”created” can simply mean that they didn’t have histfigs before that.
Post by: FrankVill on July 04, 2019, 12:09:07 pm
Quote
It can also be noted that the third mode, Legends Mode, isn't the same as World Gen, but rather World Gen PLUS whatever happens during the period fortresses and adventurers are played in the world, both in the background and as a result of player actions.
Yes, I made a mistake when I said worlgen, I was really thinking in Legends mode.
Thanks for your answer, you're right about this topic. Unless Toady says otherwise, now I am begining to see clearly that is not possible any fusion of the three modes. In any case, after each of them has been completed they will be united like puzzle pieces, I suppose.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 04, 2019, 05:57:59 pm
Post by: Felblood on July 08, 2019, 05:15:15 pm
This leads me to some new questions:
1.Is unlocking hidden legends still going to be one of the ways that you expect players to measure progression?
2. Is there ever going to be an option to hide only part of the legends?
Currently, I have to choose between knowing where every secret artifact was stashed, versus not even knowing if my native civ is at war with anyone.
I can see a number of ways to come at this, from hiding any secret legends and those over 100 years old, to just randomly hiding 50% of all legends data, so players have something to unlock, while still being able to somewhat get their bearings.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 09, 2019, 03:58:07 am
Legends Mode on the other hand should only really cut info optionally for cpu reasons (cull histfigs). Since you're playing God there (as there's no way for the game to know who you may or may not play during the life of a world).
Post by: ZM5 on July 11, 2019, 03:24:47 am
This brings to mind a question - will non-animal zombies be able to take commands now as well? In order for them to grab and use weapons, armor, etc.
Post by: Real_bang on July 11, 2019, 05:34:26 am
Can we pet the intelligent undead that we raise aswell?
Post by: voliol on July 11, 2019, 12:37:50 pm
Will random (possibly recruitable) NPCs have mounts/pets now, or is that just for the adventurer party members? Will it be possible to assign/give mounts to your party members?
Post by: Eric Blank on July 12, 2019, 12:11:33 pm
It would be hilarious if a mortal npc attempted to flirt with the undead, only to realize their mistake too late, or the undead got outed because someone tried to grab their hand and realized they're dead cold
is the petting interaction just a bp_bump interaction available to humanoids by default? Or is there something new or special about it, like an emotional response from either the petter or the pettee?
Post by: TheFlame52 on July 12, 2019, 02:44:54 pm
It would be hilarious if a mortal npc attempted to flirt with the undead, only to realize their mistake too late, or the undead got outed because someone tried to grab their hand and realized they're dead coldOr, even funnier, the undead is so good at keeping up the facade that the two court, get married, and spend several years together before the mortal figures it out.
Post by: therahedwig on July 12, 2019, 03:37:41 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2019, 06:42:56 pm
Post by: Real_bang on July 12, 2019, 11:47:21 pm
And thus "Weekend at Urist's" startedIt would be hilarious if a mortal npc attempted to flirt with the undead, only to realize their mistake too late, or the undead got outed because someone tried to grab their hand and realized they're dead coldOr, even funnier, the undead is so good at keeping up the facade that the two court, get married, and spend several years together before the mortal figures it out.
Post by: Witty on July 13, 2019, 09:03:35 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 13, 2019, 01:06:30 pm
Challenge: how many giant gators can you pat before losing a bodypart?
Unless you're a elf, which case you can pat wild [NATURAL] animals regardless because they don't draw up aggression from them, after some snout nuzzling, stroking or patting jumping straight onto their backs i don't know whether that'd count.
Will we be able to form relationships with our animals in adventure mode or are they always serventile for the adventurer mode editor?
For mainly concerns about accidentally escalating combat with your animals accidental or otherwise, maybe with unrelated wild animals like i mentioned above with elves welcoming enough to let us get close.
Zombies are kind of finnicky about those things, they need to be put down if they end up on the wrong side of combat because of the nature that they are mindless but obliging. Accidentally enraging your pet undead dragon in the future releases context doesn't sound like a smart move but might easily be done without a way to calm them down again.
Post by: Eric Blank on July 13, 2019, 01:41:16 pm
Challenge: how many giant gators can you pat before losing a bodypart?
Unless you're a elf, which case you can pat wild [NATURAL] animals regardless because they don't draw up aggression from them, after some snout nuzzling, stroking or patting jumping straight onto their backs i don't know whether that'd count.
Will we be able to form relationships with our animals in adventure mode or are they always serventile for the adventurer mode editor?
For mainly concerns about accidentally escalating combat with your animals accidental or otherwise, maybe with unrelated wild animals like i mentioned above with elves welcoming enough to let us get close.
Zombies are kind of finnicky about those things, they need to be put down if they end up on the wrong side of combat because of the nature that they are mindless but obliging. Accidentally enraging your pet undead dragon in the future releases context doesn't sound like a smart move but might easily be done without a way to calm them down again.
This is also relevant to me. I created "familiars" for my wizards, they're intelligent, and the wizards relationship with their familiar is important i.e. it would be a disaster if they got into a no-yield fight. Or if that bug about starting a fight again immediately after agreeing to end one isn't fixed.
On a related note, can intelligent creatures be used as mounts if they have the tags and are, like, amiable towards the person mounting them? I.e. my familiar has a transformation into a mountable form, retaining their intelligence. Will the game balk at my silliness?
Post by: Criperum on July 14, 2019, 05:27:26 pm
Post by: therahedwig on July 15, 2019, 05:44:45 am
Will linux version of df be available on stream?This has been asked before and the answer up till now is 'no idea'.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 16, 2019, 08:49:15 am
How exactly does a historical figure choose to divorce their spouse in worldgen? Is it based on their current relationship 'status', civilization ethics, general personality, or something else entirely? Are all divorces now 'mutual' in the sense that both parties wish to end the relationship, or is it possible for only one partner to end the marriage?
Mostly from the kind of simulations run they have some positive attribute connectivity else they would have never managed to progress their relationship to such a level by marrying each other by their own will, detract from abstract subjective things like beauty, power/wealth of either party being desired or political and/or arranged marriages (ilkot soapeater comes to mind) which might come later with the entanglement of the law arc.
Marrying a Dwarf and a Human together for instance by force (alternatively dfhacking relationship status) by hand shaking of bigger political players doesn't make for a happy couple with different views (some of them racial or variable) or psychological effects that have happened afterwards like a reflective personality change. Attribute and attitude changes in the face of losing a child for instance, may end up tearing a dwarven marriage apart in theory but i can't speak for toady's implementation.
Half dwarves won't be here for a long time, but in such a circumstance the child will currently be whatever race the mother is and list the father correctly & take the culture of wherever they're born. You can cheat human populations into your fortress this way by editing DFhack values to find lonely human female ex-long term residents some suitable dwarven suitors they are already friends with rather than wait half a lifetime to have another suitable human visit.
Post by: zakarum on July 17, 2019, 07:20:45 am
1) Be able to interrogate or "test" (such as a cut to see if it bleeds or even touch to see if its warm) prisoners they suspect of being vampires/undead? In the past you mention the intelligent undead could be captured and if freed, they'd carry on living as normal but they would eventually flee when people start noticing they don't age.
2) If 1 turns out to be true, will civs finally get a way of getting rid of the undead/vampires, such as burning them at the stake? AFAIK the only thing that happens now is that people get suspicious and they flee, but that's it.
3) Since assassinations can happen in player-led forts and since capture and interrogation of agents will be a thing, will we be possible to capture unconscious enemies? Think of an assassination that goes bad: the assassin turns into an invader, the alarm is sound, a military squad would rush and get to the assassin. Right now they would chop them to pieces, but I imagine what we are aiming at is at having him disabled and captured.
4) If 3 is true, will we be able to capture disabled soldiers of invading forces (such as goblins)? Any plans for that (interrogations, etc) if that's the case?
5) Finally, still related to 3, will there be an "alarm" system now? What I mean is, if the assassin succeeds in killing his target but doesn't sneak fast enough, someone discovers the body. The player will be alerted, like when dwarfs are found drained out of blood, but will the dwarfs try and find some authority to tell it, which can then try and find the culprit, or it will all be left for the player?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 17, 2019, 08:11:59 am
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on July 17, 2019, 08:20:18 am
Will the Steam version come with any sort of in-game tutorial? Just asking since I know that's something a lot of people have wanted out of DF ever since its inception, and a commercial release just seems to me like a good occasion to finally implement one. Maybe you're still undecided either way at this point, which is fine.
From a pcgamer article (https://www.pcgamer.com/au/tutorials-and-mouse-support-could-make-dwarf-fortress-on-steam-vastly-easier-to-play/) around when the steam release was announced:
Quote from: Tarn
Should we do tips and tutorials and that kind of thing? Seems like a solid thing. It's difficult to make a good tutorial, but making a tutorial in Dwarf Fortress, just having things that pop up, conditions that can be met, that's the kind of thing that I can code up very quickly, and could be written for something like mining without taking months.
At the same time, considering the issues on what can go wrong in a tutorial, if you're just doing the mining tutorial but you're doing it in a live fortress environment ... you have a dwarf, and you want him to have a pick and go dig. They'll do it, but how many ways can a dwarf lose a pick, right? If both their arms broke in an accident, like a tree fell on them because you'd just had a carpenter go out and chop down a tree, and then the tutorial is trying to tell you 'why don't you dig?'
We've got to detect what's going on, and there's a lot of ways a tutorial can go wrong. I think we're in a position that's a little more complicated than the average game in terms of even basic tutorials working. At the same time it's kind of a fun challenge to make a mining health detector. Then you start thinking, that's something that should be in the regular game, anyway: 'Why isn't this job being done?' Now we add in a 'why isn't this job being done' functionality, and that ties into how tutorials can be repaired.
Then the tutorial repair code can be like 'You know, we're giving you a one-time limb repair, your dwarf happens to have no arms for whatever reason, we're not going to judge you, we'll give you those arms back, let's finish the tutorial together.'
It'd be something that once we think about and plan it through, we can get quite a bit on the basic parts of the game. Like, the beekeeping tutorial is probably a little out of scope. But that's where Steam Achievements come in.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 17, 2019, 08:38:03 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 17, 2019, 11:41:39 am
We already have means to capture enemies (cage traps), so the question really becomes two:
:
4) If 3 is true, will we be able to capture disabled soldiers of invading forces (such as goblins)? Any plans for that (interrogations, etc)
:
a) Will we get fortress (and adventurer) means to subdue enemies for capture as an alternative to attack to kill?
Apart from capture for interrogation, such an option might allow you to capture tantrumers for expulsion (or performance troupe enemy civ effective spies for interrogation).
b) Will interrogation of captured enemies have a chance to provide any information that can be acted on?
(Such as e.g. something that provides us with an assassination target or other information that might be used in the conflict). Most of the time I'd expect you won't get anything beyond their civ and the settlement they assembled in, plus the name of their [usually completely expendable] leader of the attack if you'd be able to interrogate them, though. Grunts simply aren't told much.
Post by: zakarum on July 17, 2019, 02:06:17 pm
We already have means to capture enemies (cage traps), so the question really becomes two:
I know, I know. I guess I wasn't clear but I meant disabled enemies - one that was disabled by blunt forced combat or one that passed out during combat (because of injuries). But that also involves nursing them back to health (or hoping they don't die) but fair enough.
I guess the main thing here would be a "capture" designation for disabled creatures.
Post by: ZM5 on July 17, 2019, 02:13:00 pm
Post by: zakarum on July 18, 2019, 04:47:30 am
1)Will the new aquifer changes means it could be viable not to use constructed walls but instead construct a drainage system of grates and underground tunnels that naturally drain the aquifer somewhere else? Or will the water flow be too much for dwarfs to go through?
2)Will water someday seep through constructed walls, albeit at a slower rate the more walls there are between the aquifer/water source and the walls, making drainage systems for mines an actual necessity?
3)Will different kinds of rocks have different rates of permeability, affecting the speed that water seeps through the aquifer, or it will always be a fixed rate?
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 18, 2019, 08:10:34 am
Well that would be one thing, but I can see there's plenty of problems with trying to capture someone in the middle of the battle. There's plenty of enemies that end up getting disabled before they are killed and if you can provide some assistance so they live a bit longer, then you can capture a few after the dust settled. You could also equip soldiers with hammers, as it would decrease mortality.Trying to capture someone in the middle of a battle is probably a bad idea, yes. Capture requires extra time and resources (tying material, which can be abstracted, disarming that probably would have to be explicit, and prisoner guards that have to be removed from the actual battle to guard the prisoners). Thus, capture would presumably be reserved for mopping up (e.g. those pesky campers that just sit around twiddling their thumbs when the others flee). Still there's no reason for the game to refuse you the option of giving stupid(/brave/creative) orders.
1)Will the new aquifer changes means it could be viable not to use constructed walls but instead construct a drainage system of grates and underground tunnels that naturally drain the aquifer somewhere else? Or will the water flow be too much for dwarfs to go through?
2)Will water someday seep through constructed walls, albeit at a slower rate the more walls there are between the aquifer/water source and the walls, making drainage systems for mines an actual necessity?
3)Will different kinds of rocks have different rates of permeability, affecting the speed that water seeps through the aquifer, or it will always be a fixed rate?
1. It's possible to just let a current aquifer (i.e. near artesian) pour out in a sufficiently large room to evaporate (I've done that by mistake, trying to muddy a large area for a tree farm, only to realize I needed to build walls to concentrate water in one area at a time). The new aquifers will also require basins/cisterns for large water usage projects such as obsidian farms and magma sea obsidianization (when using the aquifer as the source: cavern lakes and surface rivers will probably increase in importance for these purposes).
2. Implementing this eventually will result in a number of issues (not saying it's bad, only that it needs to be balanced):
- Mud (= subterranean plants and obscured engravings) everywhere. At a minimum we need a way to clear away mud.
- Harder to get a fortress going if it gets slowly drowned in water unless you set up pumps (but evaporation should do it, unless air humidity tracking is introduced to block evaporation when the air is saturated).
3. Given that the new implementation provides for different rates, I guess the question is rather whether the rate is tied to the material (i.e. the permeability) of the layer the aquifer is in, randomly determined, or determined based on multiple factors (layer material, rainfall, slope...) with or without a random distribution.
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on July 18, 2019, 08:28:05 am
Post by: zakarum on July 18, 2019, 09:34:41 am
@PatrikLundell I guess the biggest issue would be the FPS death it would cause. But yeah, mud cleaning would be a must at least. I don't mind forts filling with water unless drained, that would actually be pretty realistic. Getting back to a fort you lost and finding it all flooded would present an interesting challenge (for an adventurer at least), and mines do flood after they are abandoned.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 18, 2019, 11:36:17 am
I don't have an issue with abandoned fortresses being flooded, but adding a pump requirement to a starting fortress may result in more work than the limited number of hands available can deal with when setting up shop.
Post by: Hellrazor on July 18, 2019, 01:05:20 pm
Post by: DG on July 18, 2019, 04:54:26 pm
Quote from: Flying TeasetsWill rock salt ever become an edible item?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933281#msg7933281
Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933335#msg7933335
This has been on the table with, say, food preservation before, and recipes and all that. So there are few angles and we'll get there when that stuff comes back into view, whenever that might be.
Post by: Death Dragon on July 18, 2019, 10:36:11 pm
Here are a couple random questions:
Can zombies raised by a player necromancer mount on a horse (or zombie horse)?
When a necromancer gets kicked out of a site, can they migrate to a player fort?
I heard that the soundtrack for the steam version is already done. Do you know if we can get to listen to some songs from it before the steam release, looking at how long that's still gonna take, or is that just Kitfox' decision?
Is there any chance players will get access to some of your DF debugging tools? They would probably be very useful for modders. Also kinda related to this, being able to take control of any historic figure in adventure mode would be really nice for roleplaying.
Edit: Just found someone wondering about this on reddit:
Does the aquifer speed change also affect the rate at which they are able to absorb water?
Post by: Arcturus on July 23, 2019, 06:24:40 am
Unless you're a elf, which case you can pat wild [NATURAL] animals regardless because they don't draw up aggression from them, after some snout nuzzling, stroking or patting jumping straight onto their backs i don't know whether that'd count.
For mainly concerns about accidentally escalating combat with your animals accidental or otherwise, maybe with unrelated wild animals like i mentioned above with elves welcoming enough to let us get close.
Zombies are kind of finnicky about those things, they need to be put down if they end up on the wrong side of combat because of the nature that they are mindless but obliging. Accidentally enraging your pet undead dragon in the future releases context doesn't sound like a smart move but might easily be done without a way to calm them down again.
Wait, does that mean elves with have a huge advantage with finding mounts? I can just picture my elf adventurer going in the jungle and hopping on an elephant and then riding it into a goblin stronghold trampling goblins everywhere and hitting them with a large wooden sword (has to be long enough to fight from elephantback).
Post by: DG on July 25, 2019, 04:08:29 am
Post by: Greendogo on July 25, 2019, 04:17:10 am
When adding Tavern games, will you be adding board games as a subgenre? I'd love to get some games of Settlers of Catan in on my Dwarven carved bone set. :D
Post by: DG on July 25, 2019, 04:33:20 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 25, 2019, 04:38:48 am
Tavern games question for Toady (and only Toady, ye great and mighty bunch of question stealers):Digging through the forum should find you bits and pieces of the plans from the Taverns arc. That way you can answer the question yourself and not have to put up with those other evil-forumites doing the same thing for the love of dwarf fortress information.
When adding Tavern games, will you be adding board games as a subgenre? I'd love to get some games of Settlers of Catan in on my Dwarven carved bone set. :D
Post by: ZM5 on July 25, 2019, 05:25:20 am
Question about the "summon" interaction that was mentioned - how will they work exactly? Will the summoned creatures innately spawn with armor/clothes (if intelligent, anyway) and will they be loyal to the caster who summoned them? Would there also be a possible time limit on how much they linger, as well as a limit on how many could be summoned at a time?
Post by: Fatace on July 25, 2019, 05:49:19 am
"Evil that spread now fades away over many years if there's no new activity in the region. The primordial evil areas don't fade. Certain demons can now spread evil from their towers (or disaster forts), and the properties of the evil areas are related to the spheres of the demon. That is, a blight demon might kill vegetation, while a deformity demon can spread evil creature populations and wormy eyeball grass and so forth. "
With that part of the blog mentioned above, will there be tags related to the ability for demons to spread their evil from their towers/forts? Like a tag that allows/disallows a demons that controls a specific, and custom Dark Fortress using Race from spreading evil?
And with these new "abilities", does that mean theres more to play with for custom secrets? :D
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 25, 2019, 05:51:05 am
So what's the deal with these magic divination dice? They certainly sound interesting, but the devlog was a bit vague on the specifics. Maybe you'd care to elaborate a bit on what they are and how they work? Unless it's a surprise, of course. :)
Post by: ZM5 on July 25, 2019, 06:09:13 am
There was also the bit about the undead lieutenants having a push-back ability - is that another new interaction function or a non-syndrome dust attack?
Post by: MCreeper on July 25, 2019, 06:38:36 am
That new devlog is really exciting - I fully support the bogeyman change.What about modding them? Whatever\wherever they are. ;D
Question about the "summon" interaction that was mentioned - how will they work exactly? Will they innately spawn with armor/clothes (if intelligent, anyway) and will they be loyal to the caster who summoned them? Would there also be a possible time limit on how much they linger?
Post by: pikachu17 on July 25, 2019, 09:41:16 am
Are only demons able to spread evil from towers, or raws creature be given the power to do so?
Are undead lieutenant powers also raws-able?
Apparently dice can curse you into a different form. What types of creature can you turn into?
Post by: ZM5 on July 25, 2019, 10:29:53 am
Oh whoops, I fixed the post. I blame the heat wave.That new devlog is really exciting - I fully support the bogeyman change.What about modding them? Whatever\wherever they are. ;D
Question about the "summon" interaction that was mentioned - how will they work exactly? Will they innately spawn with armor/clothes (if intelligent, anyway) and will they be loyal to the caster who summoned them? Would there also be a possible time limit on how much they linger?
Post by: Rumrusher on July 25, 2019, 10:47:57 am
Wow, awesome to see more pre-mythgen magic. While I'm mostly relieved about the bogeymen change, I have to admit that part of me is probably gonna miss the little troublemakers.after the set up of civil/playable bogeymen with just the entity animal tokens.
kinda worried if the modding potential for creatures that use the bogeyman token is now shoved to one region and or one randomly generated creature that needs to show up?
though regional/timed summoning interactions seems like a fun concept where creatures can just pop up out of thin air. really don't know about the bogeyman changes given uhh on one hand it might make playable bogeymen either a straight up raw dump custom creature file or dfhack thing and not entity animal token domestication thing the site just does, but having said region where the 'cackling' summons and kills them be in one area means if someone gets past the hurdle of making them playable in the new update they won't have to fear the night twice as harder than a normal adventurer
Post by: voliol on July 25, 2019, 11:09:12 am
Wow, awesome to see more pre-mythgen magic. While I'm mostly relieved about the bogeymen change, I have to admit that part of me is probably gonna miss the little troublemakers.after the set up of civil/playable bogeymen with just the entity animal tokens.
kinda worried if the modding potential for creatures that use the bogeyman token is now shoved to one region and or one randomly generated creature that needs to show up?
though regional/timed summoning interactions seems like a fun concept where creatures can just pop up out of thin air. really don't know about the bogeyman changes given uhh on one hand it might make playable bogeymen either a straight up raw dump custom creature file or dfhack thing and not entity animal token domestication thing the site just does, but having said region where the 'cackling' summons and kills them be in one area means if someone gets past the hurdle of making them playable in the new update they won't have to fear the night twice as harder than a normal adventurer
It might be the heat wave getting me as well, but I can't get my head around that question. My guess is that it is supposed to be parsed something like this:
Will the new changes to boogeymen that restrict them to certain evil biomes affect all creatures with the [BOOGEYMAN] token? Or just the generated ones? Will we be able to choose whether to restrict a modded creature, and if so, are there any further moddable options (restricting to only GOOD biomes, only biomes connected to a certain sphere etc.)?
(I'm sorry if I misunderstood a part. Still, even if that wasn't what that question was supposed to be I still want the answer to this one)
Post by: Death Dragon on July 25, 2019, 12:19:43 pm
Do you plan on making these dice based divinations possible to happen in player forts, or is that pushing too far into the actual magic update for now?
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on July 25, 2019, 03:53:01 pm
With these changes to demons and goblins civs, will it (soon) be possible for playing as adventurers from goblin civilizations without modding? Or are there some other things that are a priority before that? Cause I'm at least partly wanting to make some adventurers who serve the demons leading the goblins with the new plotting system.
Any ideas what effects on the environment the various demonic spheres will have aside from those listed in the devlog? Anything that would be particularly drastic? Would a demon with the sphere of torture have a regional effect of inflicting constant (but just manageable) pain? Would the domain of a demon of lies whisper falsehoods into the inhabitants' ears? Will misery demons cause depression? Anything like these?
EDIT: A couple more questions:
With the expansion to polymorph-like abilities mentioned in the devlog, are these specifically expansions to transformations? And if so, what sort of changes are you planning on?
This one is more about organized religions and the prevalence of various religions in towns. But is there going to be a changed or added personality facet that influences the zealousness of a historical figure's/post-gen figure's beliefs? Or is it still going to be up to chance that a certain person has a certain level of belief?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 25, 2019, 04:09:31 pm
Can a particularly poor roll of the dice in attempting divination curse the adventurer permanently, or is it all temporary effects?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 25, 2019, 04:47:45 pm
Post by: Rumrusher on July 26, 2019, 04:00:04 am
seems like you got most of the question, but it mostly wondering if the bogeyman spawn in state which I usually call 'the cackling' for clarity is going to be restricted to just where the nightmare demon and the nightmare sphere? like given how demons hang out with goblins forts it would likely means dark towers who are notoriously known to be fps killing experiences will just have bogeymen spawning in. this set up would probably make dark fortresses even more of a place no one will just go to out of fear of extreme slowdown.Wow, awesome to see more pre-mythgen magic. While I'm mostly relieved about the bogeymen change, I have to admit that part of me is probably gonna miss the little troublemakers.after the set up of civil/playable bogeymen with just the entity animal tokens.
kinda worried if the modding potential for creatures that use the bogeyman token is now shoved to one region and or one randomly generated creature that needs to show up?
though regional/timed summoning interactions seems like a fun concept where creatures can just pop up out of thin air. really don't know about the bogeyman changes given uhh on one hand it might make playable bogeymen either a straight up raw dump custom creature file or dfhack thing and not entity animal token domestication thing the site just does, but having said region where the 'cackling' summons and kills them be in one area means if someone gets past the hurdle of making them playable in the new update they won't have to fear the night twice as harder than a normal adventurer
It might be the heat wave getting me as well, but I can't get my head around that question. My guess is that it is supposed to be parsed something like this:
Will the new changes to boogeymen that restrict them to certain evil biomes affect all creatures with the [BOOGEYMAN] token? Or just the generated ones? Will we be able to choose whether to restrict a modded creature, and if so, are there any further moddable options (restricting to only GOOD biomes, only biomes connected to a certain sphere etc.)?
(I'm sorry if I misunderstood a part. Still, even if that wasn't what that question was supposed to be I still want the answer to this one)
on a different topic is there anything in the future for cavern exploring for adventurers? since all this talk about surface problems remind me that there no incentive to draw folks to the caverns in the recent update.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 26, 2019, 05:56:05 am
Will the new changes to boogeymen that restrict them to certain evil biomes affect all creatures with the [BOOGEYMAN] token? Or just the generated ones? Will we be able to choose whether to restrict a modded creature, and if so, are there any further moddable options (restricting to only GOOD biomes, only biomes connected to a certain sphere etc.)?Wow, awesome to see more pre-mythgen magic. While I'm mostly relieved about the bogeymen change, I have to admit that part of me is probably gonna miss the little troublemakers.after the set up of civil/playable bogeymen with just the entity animal tokens.
kinda worried if the modding potential for creatures that use the bogeyman token is now shoved to one region and or one randomly generated creature that needs to show up?
though regional/timed summoning interactions seems like a fun concept where creatures can just pop up out of thin air. really don't know about the bogeyman changes given uhh on one hand it might make playable bogeymen either a straight up raw dump custom creature file or dfhack thing and not entity animal token domestication thing the site just does, but having said region where the 'cackling' summons and kills them be in one area means if someone gets past the hurdle of making them playable in the new update they won't have to fear the night twice as harder than a normal adventurer
Primordial evil (our current, naturalised evil for generic evil tag monsters) and spherical evil are seperate concepts in the devlog as i understand it, bogeymen having their raws opened up might need to ignore the fact that fortresses are constantly bathed in light, until such a faculty or day/night and lighting is added, or to explain that its exonerated by the corruptive ground letting them manifest for as long as they like.
- Very much depends how it's implemented @Rumrusher, if a sphere corruption and [Evil] is enough to actually manifest, the biome would be completely optional if supported like that. That's my running assumption on how Toady is going to implement wide swathes of monsters, as unlanded normal animals just don't exist in the world without a biome.
This might have amusing/immersive implications when the creatures in [FORCED_SPHERE:DEATH] (as a example of explicitly needing a sphere instead of primordially existing, and receding when the corruption goes away) start appearing around necromancer towers and mummy crypts rather than explicitly just death-demon towers.
Post by: Rumrusher on July 26, 2019, 07:16:41 am
Will the new changes to boogeymen that restrict them to certain evil biomes affect all creatures with the [BOOGEYMAN] token? Or just the generated ones? Will we be able to choose whether to restrict a modded creature, and if so, are there any further moddable options (restricting to only GOOD biomes, only biomes connected to a certain sphere etc.)?Wow, awesome to see more pre-mythgen magic. While I'm mostly relieved about the bogeymen change, I have to admit that part of me is probably gonna miss the little troublemakers.after the set up of civil/playable bogeymen with just the entity animal tokens.
kinda worried if the modding potential for creatures that use the bogeyman token is now shoved to one region and or one randomly generated creature that needs to show up?
though regional/timed summoning interactions seems like a fun concept where creatures can just pop up out of thin air. really don't know about the bogeyman changes given uhh on one hand it might make playable bogeymen either a straight up raw dump custom creature file or dfhack thing and not entity animal token domestication thing the site just does, but having said region where the 'cackling' summons and kills them be in one area means if someone gets past the hurdle of making them playable in the new update they won't have to fear the night twice as harder than a normal adventurer
Primordial evil (our current, naturalised evil for generic evil tag monsters) and spherical evil are seperate concepts in the devlog as i understand it, bogeymen having their raws opened up might need to ignore the fact that fortresses are constantly bathed in light, until such a faculty or day/night and lighting is added, or to explain that its exonerated by the corruptive ground letting them manifest for as long as they like.Will we have more UI warning information and pop'ups for players when embarking upon a corrupted land of what kind of sphere it is? Especially since in theory a fortress close to a tomb could come under range of a corruption spread offsite probably needs to know, if there aren't any noticable effects if reprecussions come up later. Like blight spheres killing crops etc.
- Very much depends how it's implemented @Rumrusher, if a sphere corruption and [Evil] is enough to actually manifest, the biome would be completely optional if supported like that. That's my running assumption on how Toady is going to implement wide swathes of monsters, as unlanded normal animals just don't exist in the world without a biome.
This might have amusing/immersive implications when the creatures in [FORCED_SPHERE:DEATH] (as a example of explicitly needing a sphere instead of primordially existing, and receding when the corruption goes away) start appearing around necromancer towers and mummy crypts rather than explicitly just death-demon towers.
bogeymen don't have to worry about the whole light and indoor stuff when they are pulled from the cackling, as is any creature who has [NIGHT_CREATURE_BOGEYMAN] just act like normal (outside of their corpses have a small shelf life before vaporising), so far the bogeyman token just gives a special event where they could spawn from nothing at night, and instantly kills any creature with the token if the special event ends including those preexisting from world gen hmm also probably kills any pre-existing creature if they aren't closer to the adventurer when the cackling is active.
It's kinda why I kept talking about 'the Cackling' the whole time as it's the event(or well the end of said event) that kills bogeymen not the bogeymen themselves dying due to certain conditions.
so this is going off the assumption that bogeymen will just linger around dark fortresses (which would be favored as this envisions goblins arming bogeymen with armor and weapons thus making them the elite force to the goblin army) along with trolls and goblins and not just some night trap to halt adventurers from trying to solo a dark fortress.
though if both happen it means it's probably FUN to activate the cackling near the spire to quickly wipe out the bogey-army inside when you enter the spire, then all the goblins and trolls who saw their friends instantly die in front of them take emotional stress damage.
So far my issue is the chance of no bogeymen existing in a region due to a dice roll of world gen via demon selection not evil region than the shoving bogeymen to goblin sites so the common player could avoid them more easily and not just get assaulted on day 0.
Post by: Beag on July 26, 2019, 04:14:43 pm
2. How many of the background skills will eventually be usable in adventure mode?
3. Will demon towers exist for all spheres for purposes of region changing or just certain spheres? If only a few which ones.
4. Will our player adventurers be able to use magic divination dice?
Post by: ZM5 on July 26, 2019, 05:08:56 pm
Going by this bit, yes - "And, um, the divinations doing things sometimes. I went to a shrine, rolled a tin icosahedral die and it was a bad roll and I was cursed to be a snowy owl for a week. So I flew up to a nearby rooftop and pondered tangents.".
4. Will our player adventurers be able to use magic divination dice?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 26, 2019, 05:16:10 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on July 26, 2019, 09:16:25 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 26, 2019, 09:29:26 pm
Post by: therahedwig on July 27, 2019, 06:26:00 am
For some reason when discussing future-reading magic I always imagined trances, so the dice caught me off guard :D
Oh, oh, oh, can histfigs observe and tell each other about divinations/game outcomes? Because a lot of stories start with an (un)lucky roll of the dice :D Did you manage to have histfigs themselves be capable of rolling dice?
Post by: ZM5 on July 27, 2019, 07:46:04 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on July 27, 2019, 01:53:33 pm
There's also the fact that pretty much every form of magic already in the game can be accessed by adventurers (vampirism, lycanthropy, necromancy) so having divination be any different would be kind of arbitrary IMO.
I second this.
Post by: Real_bang on July 27, 2019, 02:32:33 pm
1. What if npc or player steals the divination dice/s from shrine? Will they get cursed if they wont return the dice/s in some days later?
2. Do divination dice's count as artifacts?
Post by: Noventrice on July 27, 2019, 05:46:23 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 27, 2019, 06:24:19 pm
Post by: Beakromancer on July 28, 2019, 06:01:47 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 28, 2019, 08:23:04 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on July 28, 2019, 10:01:08 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 29, 2019, 01:40:14 am
Post by: zakarum on July 30, 2019, 07:57:50 am
Can demons start plots? Will they? If yes, in what conditions? would they have some special advantage to tempt people and make agents?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 30, 2019, 09:28:07 am
Post by: Beakromancer on July 30, 2019, 11:54:36 am
Will certain creatures or entities be able to spread good regions?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 30, 2019, 12:03:25 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on July 30, 2019, 01:01:40 pm
Post by: Renarin21 on July 30, 2019, 01:13:23 pm
Post by: Pillbo on July 30, 2019, 05:18:02 pm
About the intelligent undead -
Do they look like corpses / talking zombies? If not does that mean you can only raise someone who recently died? Or does the spell repair their body during resurrection?
Could I go as an adventurer to my ruined/retired fort, resurrect all my favorite dwarves and start a fort of semi-immortal undead?
Post by: feelotraveller on July 30, 2019, 11:15:45 pm
Will certain creatures or entities be able to spread good regions?
I think that the answer to this is no.
[Regretfully, in my opinion, since this moves away from sandbox play and towards setting the world as opposition/problem to overcome - the great hero purging evil at the end of a sword or the great villain enthralling all who surround them (or perhaps we can find a safe little niche and avoid it... just maybe...). Or to put it positively ;D how cool would it be to actively spread good and have demons, necromancers and other assorted nasties flee before waves of unicorns, sunshine and fluffy wamblers. But that would be another gaming paradigm, more along the lines of the player actively making the world...]
In the longer term it shouldn't matter since with the Myth and Magic update (coming soonTM) it is spheres that will be spreading (or not) and the old good and evil biomes will be defunct. Evil spreading is just the test case/initial prototype for all this (and Toady has probably accurately? judged the sorryness of the current crop of DF players before inflicting this upon us).
My two cents. Happy to be corrected as usual. :P
Post by: DG on July 31, 2019, 12:03:04 am
Post by: ZM5 on July 31, 2019, 03:30:57 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 31, 2019, 11:02:05 am
Spreading good could get into a philosophical argument about how "good" it is to shoulder out indigenous varieties of plants and animals with good aligned versions as the sphere of influence grows.I personally kinda see good biomes in the same way as the Hallow from Terraria. It's the "good" equivalent, except its still not particularly good (I suppose a better way to describe it would be "fey") - its just as dangerous as the evil regions (atleast in Terraria, in DF, maybe not so much since the good regions are less fleshed out, unless you use mods), what with unicorns freely goring people to death and the like. So spreading good biomes would still not actually be the good thing to do.
I mean if there's always some potentional perverse benefit to doing so you might want to, supernaturally ideosyncratic 'demons of light' and other light magic associated entities like that being more of a annoyance than primordial unicorns are potentially. Some benefits like extension of your life for the longetivity sphere but the areas being patrolled by bloodthirsty magical sentinels.
Others might contextually be annoying, like a sphere of music making insufferable sound which makes it hard to sleep, there's a bunch of suggestions of spheres here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173189.msg7926075#msg7926075)
Will there be sphere created semi/mega-beasts where appropriate emerging with the wildlife (within world costing), or will they always be resorted to world generation?
I was kind of hoping to have a greater muck monster for the evil biomes pop up when the conditions were right, or inversely to the quotation, maybe a Phoenix spontaneously appear over rebirth good areas to add some danger setting things on fire with the halves of a roc and a dragon together.
Will certain creatures or entities be able to spread good regions?I think that the answer to this is no.
Without a proper reply from Toady, until its all sorted out, i think evil biomes as they are will just be 'Primordial' until least after the changes to world generation are put in and a clean slate to make the world as they want it. But i mirror your opinion that spreading good biomes at this stage doesn't really have a purpose outside of being there for modders.
Potentially some interaction with angel vaults or shrines I abstractly think of having a higher potential chance of hosting some couter or alternative influence but thats just my own speculation.
Post by: ZM5 on July 31, 2019, 12:08:57 pm
Post by: Nahere on July 31, 2019, 03:42:52 pm
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2019, 02:11:38 am
Quote from: FantasticDorf
If such a scenario did occur with freedom to write demons on file (at own risk obviously), would we see mainstream integration of tags like [DEMON] on lesser creatures such as fire imps with a bit more context on what defines a demonic leader vs small fry like them by using [POWER] on file, versus other definitions of player created ambient wildlife and intelligent races that may be demonic themselves?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7990503#msg7990503
Yeah, I haven't gone back to the fire imp, but it's not unreasonable, assuming they are more demonic than magma-oriented, which isn't something we thought very deeply about.
Quote from: FrankVill
If I understood it well, Dwarf Fortress is currently "three-games-in-one", because each one of them has different mechanisms. For implementing the new villain features, you begun to modify worldgen in first place, after that you'll change some adventure mode things and in last place you'll do the same in fortress mode.
However, I suppose in th future "three games" could melt in one and you could modify anything in worldgen that would make changes directly into adventure and fortress modes (it would be ideal).
So, these are my cuestions:
In what degree are the three games currently connected at the development level?
What elements of the world generation could be reflected in both modes automatically after their modification?
And is it possible to achieve a definitive fusion that could in a way facilitate your work?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7991433#msg7991433
FrankVill (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7991727#msg7991727
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7991885#msg7991885
Yeah, they are separate for some core reasons, but there's already a lot of cross-over, and new sorts of modes or half-modes might happen in the future that feel like they are further blending the lines, whether that's more passage of time and the control of more people in adventure mode, or a deity sort of mode that feels more like influencing legends/active-world than playing a fort or adv. Right now that would just be cursing people (or selecting die roll outcomes), which would be amusing but limited, but the possibilities are going to just keep coming, and turning my own crufty 'world debug' mode into a deity game is not all that complicated, aside from adding more things to do and making the world interesting to visit. Something like the return of schedules etc. feels semi-necessary, because people really do just do nothing most of the time, and it would be fairly boring to drop in on them, or at least strange.
Quote from: Felblood
1.Is unlocking hidden legends still going to be one of the ways that you expect players to measure progression?
2. Is there ever going to be an option to hide only part of the legends?
Currently, I have to choose between knowing where every secret artifact was stashed, versus not even knowing if my native civ is at war with anyone.
I can see a number of ways to come at this, from hiding any secret legends and those over 100 years old, to just randomly hiding 50% of all legends data, so players have something to unlock, while still being able to somewhat get their bearings.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7993594#msg7993594
There was that distant time when legends mode was going to be about the information you've uncovered in all of your games, but it's really moved away from that - and the volume of information is so large now (and mostly uninteresting by itself) that that seems fine. However, when we get to the origin of the world and the big ticket secrets, that seems like something we'll definitely be doing again. For all of the other little secrets, yeah, I dunno. There's a lot of stuff you kind of shouldn't know now, concerning plots and so forth, but legends mode doesn't read well without them. It might be something more like letting you look at a sort of legends mode from the other modes, with only the things you should know, which I think was always in the cards but has some difficulties in terms of information tracking.
Quote from: ZM5
This brings to mind a question - will non-animal zombies be able to take commands now as well? In order for them to grab and use weapons, armor, etc.
They don't currently, though it is a weird gray area until we get better magic foundations in and I'm not sure how it'll turn out even in the short term, if more tweaks happen.
Quote from: Real_bang
Can we pet the intelligent undead that we raise aswell?
I don't think so, but I haven't tried.
Quote from: voliol
Will random (possibly recruitable) NPCs have mounts/pets now, or is that just for the adventurer party members? Will it be possible to assign/give mounts to your party members?
I haven't changed more broadly who has them, nor done additional companion stuff with them. There's a ton of stuff to do there, but I'm not sure what I'll get to now for this time.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Can intelligent undead raised by necromancers end up in romantic or friendly relationships with other people around them?
It would be hilarious if a mortal npc attempted to flirt with the undead, only to realize their mistake too late, or the undead got outed because someone tried to grab their hand and realized they're dead cold
is the petting interaction just a bp_bump interaction available to humanoids by default? Or is there something new or special about it, like an emotional response from either the petter or the pettee?
I don't recall if romance is specifically off limits to them (there is probably a zombie check which might hit them), but the rest should be good.
I don't have a specific emotional reaction for the pettee/petter or anything that distinguishes it yet, but it's only a matter of time. It was life-affirming to see my other party members petting the party pets right when I started.
Quote from: Witty
How exactly does a historical figure choose to divorce their spouse in worldgen? Is it based on their current relationship 'status', civilization ethics, general personality, or something else entirely? Are all divorces now 'mutual' in the sense that both parties wish to end the relationship, or is it possible for only one partner to end the marriage?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7996468#msg7996468
It is highly not complicated right now. There are tens of thousands of them going, so we really just plop them in and out. The new intrigue relationships occur at a much lower volume (in the hundreds or slightly more), so they can be tracked with the new detail, and the same is true of all fort mode relationships, but I haven't gotten to those yet.
Quote
Quote from: FantasticDorfWill we be able to form relationships with our animals in adventure mode or are they always serventile for the adventurer mode editor?
For mainly concerns about accidentally escalating combat with your animals accidental or otherwise, maybe with unrelated wild animals like i mentioned above with elves welcoming enough to let us get close.Quote from: Eric BlankThis is also relevant to me. I created "familiars" for my wizards, they're intelligent, and the wizards relationship with their familiar is important i.e. it would be a disaster if they got into a no-yield fight. Or if that bug about starting a fight again immediately after agreeing to end one isn't fixed.
On a related note, can intelligent creatures be used as mounts if they have the tags and are, like, amiable towards the person mounting them? I.e. my familiar has a transformation into a mountable form, retaining their intelligence. Will the game balk at my silliness?
I don't quite understand the first question. If you select a pet in the character generation screen, it has a pet relationship, like the ones from fort mode. Regarding the intelligent party members, that might be more appropriate as an actual party member? Though I agree that any weird conflict behavior should be cleaned up. I haven't brought myself to attacking my own test pets yet.
I don't think it'll let you ride intelligent things because they aren't tame in the technical flag sense. Hmm, maybe having "MOUNT" or "MOUNT_EXOTIC" should be sufficient for companions/party members. Although this makes me curious why I was even able to ride my undead mount. Perhaps the flag carried over after the raise? I will note it down.
Quote from: Criperum
Will linux version of df be available on stream?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7995993#msg7995993
Yeah, I'm not committing on day-one linux or Mac until I'm much further down the line, since I need to see what happens with the graphics and other updates. There might be unexpected problems I'm not equipped to handle.
Quote
Quote from: zakarumWith the upcoming "interrogations" to deal with villainous plots, will the player and the AI:
1) Be able to interrogate or "test" (such as a cut to see if it bleeds or even touch to see if its warm) prisoners they suspect of being vampires/undead? In the past you mention the intelligent undead could be captured and if freed, they'd carry on living as normal but they would eventually flee when people start noticing they don't age.
2) If 1 turns out to be true, will civs finally get a way of getting rid of the undead/vampires, such as burning them at the stake? AFAIK the only thing that happens now is that people get suspicious and they flee, but that's it.
3) Since assassinations can happen in player-led forts and since capture and interrogation of agents will be a thing, will we be possible to capture unconscious enemies? Think of an assassination that goes bad: the assassin turns into an invader, the alarm is sound, a military squad would rush and get to the assassin. Right now they would chop them to pieces, but I imagine what we are aiming at is at having him disabled and captured.
4) If 3 is true, will we be able to capture disabled soldiers of invading forces (such as goblins)? Any plans for that (interrogations, etc) if that's the case?
5) Finally, still related to 3, will there be an "alarm" system now? What I mean is, if the assassin succeeds in killing his target but doesn't sneak fast enough, someone discovers the body. The player will be alerted, like when dwarfs are found drained out of blood, but will the dwarfs try and find some authority to tell it, which can then try and find the culprit, or it will all be left for the player?Quote from: PatrikLundellWe already have means to capture enemies (cage traps), so the question [#4] really becomes two:
a) Will we get fortress (and adventurer) means to subdue enemies for capture as an alternative to attack to kill?
Apart from capture for interrogation, such an option might allow you to capture tantrumers for expulsion (or performance troupe enemy civ effective spies for interrogation).
b) Will interrogation of captured enemies have a chance to provide any information that can be acted on?
(Such as e.g. something that provides us with an assassination target or other information that might be used in the conflict). Most of the time I'd expect you won't get anything beyond their civ and the settlement they assembled in, plus the name of their [usually completely expendable] leader of the attack if you'd be able to interrogate them, though. Grunts simply aren't told much.
zakarum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7996937#msg7996937
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7996938#msg7996938
zakarum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7997243#msg7997243
This is basically all stuff that we are deciding right now as we head toward the adventurer investigation stage. So I don't yet have anything to offer here, other than that a lot of this is sitting on the plate and we're not going to get to all of it, but we'll very likely get to a portion of it. Almost certainly you'll be able to capture and interrogate even traditionally kill-on-site hostiles in fort mode, and use the information provided, dwarf mode counterintelligence being one of the ways the fort-mode player will be able to interact with the new systems. But yeah, away from the plots, just with regular enemies, I expect we'll be more in the territory of witnesses to random events and so forth, plot tidbits at random, that kind of thing. I don't have specifics, as this is the part of adv mode investigation and what happens there is going to determine more or less what non-plot people have to offer in fort mode (whether they are captured, or just travelers you question, or whatever.)
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Will the Steam version come with any sort of in-game tutorial? Just asking since I know that's something a lot of people have wanted out of DF ever since its inception, and a commercial release just seems to me like a good occasion to finally implement one. Maybe you're still undecided either way at this point, which is fine.
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7996843#msg7996843
PlumpHelmetMan (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7996846#msg7996846
Quote from: zakarum
1)Will the new aquifer changes means it could be viable not to use constructed walls but instead construct a drainage system of grates and underground tunnels that naturally drain the aquifer somewhere else? Or will the water flow be too much for dwarfs to go through?
2)Will water someday seep through constructed walls, albeit at a slower rate the more walls there are between the aquifer/water source and the walls, making drainage systems for mines an actual necessity?
3)Will different kinds of rocks have different rates of permeability, affecting the speed that water seeps through the aquifer, or it will always be a fixed rate?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7997291#msg7997291
Whatsifsowhatsit: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7997299#msg7997299
zakarum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7997324#msg7997324
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7997366#msg7997366
1) Yeah, you can do this. You have to eventually get the water out to, say, the caverns or wherever, because it does fill up confined spaces over time. But a diligent mining crew can take care of it. You can't just leave it alone for any period of time though, so you have to start with a plan, I think, if you're not going to construct walls. In my very limited experience with it, if you set a miner working, they'll be able to outpace the flow of water easily enough for you to get the water shunted off to the cavern, but it is a little project for them, as relying simply on one vertical tunnel can work but is also hazardous, since it doesn't take long for the water to pool at the bottom to 4 or higher. If there's a bit of adaptation and the rare drowning for beginners, I think that's about right. Hopefully we home in on that. Though perhaps even then the loss of a pick is harsh for new people. It does still pop up the aquifer warning on embark, he he he.
2) If we can get around the annoyances (as PatrikLundell enumerated), this seems reasonable enough.
3) Ideally in the future, yeah, though right now it is very simple and has nothing to do with that.
Quote from: Hellrazor
Do you have plans to add food preserving to the game?
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7997529#msg7997529
More generally, yes, variously, but no time table.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Can zombies raised by a player necromancer mount on a horse (or zombie horse)?
When a necromancer gets kicked out of a site, can they migrate to a player fort?
I heard that the soundtrack for the steam version is already done. Do you know if we can get to listen to some songs from it before the steam release, looking at how long that's still gonna take, or is that just Kitfox' decision?
Is there any chance players will get access to some of your DF debugging tools? They would probably be very useful for modders. Also kinda related to this, being able to take control of any historic figure in adventure mode would be really nice for roleplaying.
Edit: Just found someone wondering about this on reddit:
Does the aquifer speed change also affect the rate at which they are able to absorb water?
Mounts: Nope. They don't think to do it. At least, I don't think they do.
Migrants: That seems possible. There could be some archaic check against it, but they were much more eager to leave their home sites immediately before, so it might not have come up. Though I do recall there were some town clutches of them even in the older versions.
Soundtrack: That's all up to them, and I think it'll be happening later in the process.
Tools: As new modes and things go in, the god-like world debug mode might become available. It's not really ready for that though, since it's very haphazard with the usual checks/etc. itself, since making it playable was not the concern.
Aquifer: I haven't changed anything about aquifer absorb rates, though I did see that or a similar comment at the time and made a note. Though I don't really remember the code in question and am not sure what'll end up happening yet.
Quote from: Greendogo
When adding Tavern games, will you be adding board games as a subgenre? I'd love to get some games of Settlers of Catan in on my Dwarven carved bone set.
I'm not sure I'll be able to handle the proc AI if the games get too complicated, but we've noted down several branches of boardgames, from the racing games to the chess variants and so forth, and we'll see what plays at all and what doesn't and how far are variants and generation can spread practically. The AI doesn't have to be good or even passable, but it has to be feel a certain way, and it's not easy to do even/especially a beginner AI on certain types of games.
Quote from: ZM5
Question about the "summon" interaction that was mentioned - how will they work exactly? Will the summoned creatures innately spawn with armor/clothes (if intelligent, anyway) and will they be loyal to the caster who summoned them? Would there also be a possible time limit on how much they linger, as well as a limit on how many could be summoned at a time?
They don't start with items. They don't have a loyalty either; the necromancer can cheat here because the night creatures all get along with each other to some extent, so the necromancer simply isn't targeted. There is a time limit and a cooldown (the old WAIT_PERIOD style cooldown.) It doesn't take a number-to-summon parameter currently, but the effect could be copied to increase the number.
Quote from: Fatace
"Evil that spread now fades away over many years if there's no new activity in the region. The primordial evil areas don't fade. Certain demons can now spread evil from their towers (or disaster forts), and the properties of the evil areas are related to the spheres of the demon. That is, a blight demon might kill vegetation, while a deformity demon can spread evil creature populations and wormy eyeball grass and so forth. "
With that part of the blog mentioned above, will there be tags related to the ability for demons to spread their evil from their towers/forts? Like a tag that allows/disallows a demons that controls a specific, and custom Dark Fortress using Race from spreading evil?
And with these new "abilities", does that mean theres more to play with for custom secrets?
There are new interaction effects. I didn't want to get into the specific mechanics of evil spreading, since it's bound to be rewritten when we do the map and magic stuff, but there is a simple caste tag for it. To avoid processor trouble, it only works for civ-leaders though. The necromancer evil-death spread effect from animation is still hard-coded.
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2019, 02:11:52 am
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
So what's the deal with these magic divination dice? They certainly sound interesting, but the devlog was a bit vague on the specifics. Maybe you'd care to elaborate a bit on what they are and how they work? Unless it's a surprise, of course.
At the base it's just a random roll for fun-time effect, though we might still slip in a simple prayer-or-offering bit to tip the scales to favorable outcomes. There are dice, in the shrines, associated to certain deities, and you can pick them up and roll them. The face (or faces) you get is tied to a table of effects on a per-god basis, and you get one roll per deity per week generally, though the game gives additional information there when that isn't the case. There are a few more random details in other responses.
Quote from: ZM5
I forgot, regarding the dice - is their cursing going to be a hardcoded thing or will it be possible to add raw-defined boons/curses from them?
There was also the bit about the undead lieutenants having a push-back ability - is that another new interaction function or a non-syndrome dust attack?
There's no way to create a divination set from the raws. It uses a raw format, but it can't be attached to a historical deity, which is the only way it knows how to work. Still, at least having a raw format means that all the individual effects are available as usual.
The push back is a new PROPEL_UNIT effect. There isn't any source point control currently (this is also a problem with some of the older ones - there's a technical targeting issue there I haven't worked through yet), but you can set the force number and target, and the force is applied from the caster toward the target.
Quote from: pikachu17
Is new stuff going into the interaction examples folder?
Are only demons able to spread evil from towers, or raws creature be given the power to do so?
Are undead lieutenant powers also raws-able?
Apparently dice can curse you into a different form. What types of creature can you turn into?
Folder: I have a note to that effect, yeah.
Spread: There's a tag for it.
Powers: All their powers are standard raws, yeah.
Curse: That particular curse turns you into any mundane non-predatory non-vermin creature. There may be other kinds. My only issue has been that some of the larger creatures are slower than humans, which makes them annoying to play. I might have to make a speed check parameter or something.
Quote
Quote from: Rumrusherkinda worried if the modding potential for creatures that use the bogeyman token is now shoved to one region and or one randomly generated creature that needs to show up?
though regional/timed summoning interactions seems like a fun concept where creatures can just pop up out of thin air. really don't know about the bogeyman changes given uhh on one hand it might make playable bogeymen either a straight up raw dump custom creature file or dfhack thing and not entity animal token domestication thing the site just does, but having said region where the 'cackling' summons and kills them be in one area means if someone gets past the hurdle of making them playable in the new update they won't have to fear the night twice as harder than a normal adventurerQuote from: voliolWill the new changes to boogeymen that restrict them to certain evil biomes affect all creatures with the [BOOGEYMAN] token? Or just the generated ones? Will we be able to choose whether to restrict a modded creature, and if so, are there any further moddable options (restricting to only GOOD biomes, only biomes connected to a certain sphere etc.)?
Rumrusher (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8000958#msg8000958
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8000982#msg8000982
Rumrusher (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8000998#msg8000998
Regarding your top linked comment there, entire evil regions that have nothing to do with demons can still have them, and even in the evil regions with demons, there's plenty of real estate away from the towers. But more broadly speaking, certainly the new system does limit their breadth now. So that is changed, and there aren't new options to place creatures in broader regions. The 'primordial evil' regions don't even have sphere links, so it doesn't use the nightmare sphere as it does with demons. There's just a straight up 10% chance for starter evil regions to have bogeymen. Players really hated them. Like almost everybody, and they did make trying to play as a traditional single-character RPG basically impossible or at least silly. So they have been relegated away to just a few places now. Certainly more customization would be cool, though.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Now that bogeymen are restricted to specific regions, are you going to make it possible for them to show up during fort mode?
Do you plan on making these dice based divinations possible to happen in player forts, or is that pushing too far into the actual magic update for now?
Nope, that's not really related to region restriction. Though certain summoning powers will make them show up.
Yeah, probably not yet. The blessings and curses aren't as related to the life of the fort dwarf. Though at some point we'll want to continue unifying stuff.
Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
With these changes to demons and goblins civs, will it (soon) be possible for playing as adventurers from goblin civilizations without modding? Or are there some other things that are a priority before that? Cause I'm at least partly wanting to make some adventurers who serve the demons leading the goblins with the new plotting system.
Any ideas what effects on the environment the various demonic spheres will have aside from those listed in the devlog? Anything that would be particularly drastic? Would a demon with the sphere of torture have a regional effect of inflicting constant (but just manageable) pain? Would the domain of a demon of lies whisper falsehoods into the inhabitants' ears? Will misery demons cause depression? Anything like these?
EDIT: A couple more questions:
With the expansion to polymorph-like abilities mentioned in the devlog, are these specifically expansions to transformations? And if so, what sort of changes are you planning on?
This one is more about organized religions and the prevalence of various religions in towns. But is there going to be a changed or added personality facet that influences the zealousness of a historical figure's/post-gen figure's beliefs? Or is it still going to be up to chance that a certain person has a certain level of belief?
Gob-civ adv: There's still not much to do there, but yeah, once we have adv mode villainy done (with the possibility of taking orders, though we haven't committed to that yet), we'll be a bit closer, and when we get to the army stuff that was possible before the Big Wait (but after the Steam/itch release), there might be enough.
Region effects: We haven't made new regional effects at all, but of course there are endless possibilities. We'll probably wait until we get to the map rewrite and the more broad magical lands before doing them, though obviously that hasn't stopped us from playing around a bit, so who knows?
Polymorph: That one didn't require any changes, if I recollect. It just uses a body transformation on a timer.
Religion and personality: It's still random, though some of the responses to persecution and the likelihood of initiating one take personality into account.
Quote from: Egan_BW
Can a particularly poor roll of the dice in attempting divination curse the adventurer permanently, or is it all temporary effects?
The regular bad rolls are all temporary currently, but you can really screw up if you don't treat the process respectfully. This will be clear before it happens.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
What are some of the lucky dice roll blessings that you mention in the Steam update?
Item? Pet? Healing? Are those new interaction effects?
Quote from: Rumrusher
is there anything in the future for cavern exploring for adventurers? since all this talk about surface problems remind me that there no incentive to draw folks to the caverns in the recent update.
I'm holding off on any of that until the map rewrite. I want to do more with it, but the way the maps are stored makes it hard to get beyond isolated sites.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Will we have more UI warning information and pop'ups for players when embarking upon a corrupted land of what kind of sphere it is? Especially since in theory a fortress close to a tomb could come under range of a corruption spread offsite probably needs to know, if there aren't any noticable effects if reprecussions come up later. Like blight spheres killing crops etc.
This might have amusing/immersive implications when the creatures in [FORCED_SPHERE:DEATH] (as a example of explicitly needing a sphere instead of primordially existing, and receding when the corruption goes away) start appearing around necromancer towers and mummy crypts rather than explicitly just death-demon towers.
There's nothing like that at this point, but crops are safe currently. Later it'll matter more I suspect.
Quote from: Beag
1. Will other backgrounds besides hearth person in adventure mode confer a special status in your starting site?
2. How many of the background skills will eventually be usable in adventure mode?
3. Will demon towers exist for all spheres for purposes of region changing or just certain spheres? If only a few which ones.
4. Will our player adventurers be able to use magic divination dice?
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8001216#msg8001216
1. That's the only one. We've really just expanded out the peasant options so far, though we'll possibly do a bit more with it before it's out.
2. Eventually? We're hoping to get all of them in when I do the adventurer skills stuff that's been rotting away on dev forever. In the nearer term, I'm not sure, but probably not many.
3. Death, blight, disease, deformity and nightmares only, for now. Adding the tag to creatures without one of these currently does nothing - the evil won't even spread. You have to pick your poison so it knows what to do. Many demons do not currently spread a region for this reason; even in my ideal game, this would be true, since some of them want to keep a lower profile or it just isn't their style, though of course we want to have various effects for all of them over time.
4. Yeah. Only them, actually! Nobody else is yet so foolish or faithful, mostly because they don't have use for certain of the blessings, but that'll change as the system expands and townspeople have more to do at some distant point. Perhaps your non-party companions will get there first, though not even that happens currently.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Do or can summoned creatures have souls? Is it possible to summon something that becomes a permanent historical figure, talks to people etc without causing crashes?(a problem Ive faced with reanimated intelligent body parts)
They are generated as normal, so they all do, yeah. If the summon doesn't have a timer, they are just a person/animal/etc., though they don't have cultural links and so forth. Though of course there could/will be various issues to work through, it isn't the same as reanimation.
Quote from: Egan_BW
Will there be a skill associated with Divination, or maybe some other barrier to entry like needing to get someone to tell you how to do it?
There's nothing like that currently. Generally, it's just sort of strange and an odd cross-cultural element which'll likely undergo serious revisions as we head into and then out of the magic stuff. I agree overall that there should be some cultural learning associated to it, whether that's like the musical knowledge or whatever else. But we might not see that until we get to the customs stuff in the broadest sense, though certainly we'll get a bit before that with the magic traditions etc. etc.
Quote from: therahedwig
How much effect do the gods themselves have on the divination? Or are their uh... structures still too barebones to do anything there? Are we also going to see stuff like card-reading, crystal gazing and entrails reading(proper necromancy :D), will necromancers in specific do necromancy? Do you have any plans for divinations themselves to actually predict the future, or will they primarily be communications?
For some reason when discussing future-reading magic I always imagined trances, so the dice caught me off guard :D
Oh, oh, oh, can histfigs observe and tell each other about divinations/game outcomes? Because a lot of stories start with an (un)lucky roll of the dice :D Did you manage to have histfigs themselves be capable of rolling dice?
This is just the starting point with divination, so the dice are what we have. Of course it's very strange and there are too many dice and we'd like to diversify the methods, but stuff mostly begins this way, and it's fine. Though we're pretty close to doing some sphere-based stuff with the divinations themselves. There's almost enough effects for it, and we're still deciding if we want to split them up yet or not. Sort of a flavor vs. uniformity conflict with no proper near-term answer and which won't matter as more stuff is added (when splitting up by sphere becomes obvious.)
Ha ha, yeah, I was just looking at that Hellenic/Ptolemaic d20 right before I was doing shrines. Things often go like that. Would have been something else if I had been looking elsewhere (like the Liver of Piacenza; haruspicy is tempting with all the livestock organs we have available), but we'll eventually get to multiple methods.
Regarding necromancy and trances, I should tease a day in advance that ghosts have not wholly escaped our attention.
As with many things, your companions and others are completely ignorant of their surroundings when it comes to divination. Even if you turn into a cow or something. This will change, but I'm not sure when. Their awareness is such a large subject and easy to avoid, though it is important, eventually, to get to that stuff.
Quote from: ZM5
Are there any plans to change how ranged weapons work in adventure mode and in the raws before the big wait? By that I mean, being able to change the firing/reload speed on an individual basis, or being able to aim for specific body parts.
It's not specifically in the pre Big Wait notes, but I think there's a possiblity during the strength that runs through the Steam/itch changes over to the army stuff and other matter that combat could see a look. It's the sort of thing that could spring up with adv mode medical as well.
Quote from: Real_bang
1. What if npc or player steals the divination dice/s from shrine? Will they get cursed if they wont return the dice/s in some days later?
2. Do divination dice's count as artifacts?
1. It doesn't care about that yet, though it might before release. I still have to set up a zone.
2. Nope. Any dice with the proper improvement can be used, but there's no way to make them yet.
Quote from: Noventrice
What sort of activities prevent evil from fading from an area? Is it only evil activities such as evil clouds/rain? Could I theoretically be in an area as it becomes more good or does my presence there count as activity?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8001860#msg8001860
Yeah, just activities that literally would increase the evil of the region (raising the dead, being an appropriate demon/tagged ruler.) If no such activity happens, the evil (slowly) starts to fade.
Quote from: Beakromancer
Will certain megabeasts be able to spread evil regions?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8002370#msg8002370
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8002420#msg8002420
None of them have the correct tag, nor can they become a civ ruler, which is the other required condition currently. At some point, I might relax the latter condition, at least for megas, though it wouldn't currently apply to any but certain titans possibly, or forgotten beasts if they count.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Swapping between Hearth person and Peasant is currently the only way to "select" your starting town in Adventurer (it skips to the next random town each time until you get someplace close to where you want to be). Presumably that's no longer functional with the new background profession selection? Will you add a location selection to the new interface? Or do you prefer Adventurers to always start somewhere randomly within their selected civ?
You can select your home town manually now, and it gives a little summary of the population. If you have multiple party members, then you can start in any one of their home towns.
Quote from: zakarum
Can demons start plots? Will they? If yes, in what conditions? would they have some special advantage to tempt people and make agents?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8003210#msg8003210
They have a few new advantages they share with certain necros that'll come up next log, but mainly, their advantage is being relatively unassailable and having a civilization to call on, with (kidnapped) people from various other places (which already came up for regular infiltration agents/scouts.) And yeah, many of them are plotters, for the same personality reasons as others, and I think their generated personalities more often put them in that range as well.
Quote from: Beakromancer
Will certain creatures or entities be able to spread good regions?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8003283#msg8003283
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8003322#msg8003322
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8003650#msg8003650
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8003664#msg8003664
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8003699#msg8003699
It isn't currently part of the tagging.
Quote from: Renarin21
For the Myth and Magic Update, let's say there is a world where humans are created by a precursor race, and worship them. If another race, say the dwarves, are descendants of these precursor gods, will the humans revere dwarves, or generally be more prone to viewing them as religious figures? If humans are unaware of this mythic connection, but then they become aware of it, will their attitude concerning dwarves change?
Ha ha, I have no idea quite yet how all of that is going to work out. There are going to be lots of strange situations, and just getting the humans to recognize any potential gods, angels or similar beings living among them will be a first step. Doing attitudes and further degrees of separation would then become possible. The matter of the revelation of hidden world secrets is part of the idea, whether that's 'research' or something entirely theological or different, and having change in the world because of it, but much like the divination dice, the particular forms we get at first are up for grabs.
Quote from: Pillbo
About the intelligent undead -
Do they look like corpses / talking zombies? If not does that mean you can only raise someone who recently died? Or does the spell repair their body during resurrection?
Could I go as an adventurer to my ruined/retired fort, resurrect all my favorite dwarves and start a fort of semi-immortal undead?
They look however they looked at the time; the syndrome grants them the usual undead sort of immortality, so the state of the body's wounds are not important, though it must be fit for resurrection (which just means it has an upper body that is not missing or pulped.) The spell does not repair them, which can lead to some unfortunates. It also leads to the ignorance of their fellow citizens being very strange at times, though world gen does not track rot states carefully for most purposes. It is tempting to healing them, though I have not yet done this.
I think you could create this fort, yeah, if you manage to integrate into a fort somehow. I don't remember the retirement rules but they don't seem to care about a lot of things.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Will there be sphere created semi/mega-beasts where appropriate emerging with the wildlife (within world costing), or will they always be resorted to world generation?
I was kind of hoping to have a greater muck monster for the evil biomes pop up when the conditions were right, or inversely to the quotation, maybe a Phoenix spontaneously appear over rebirth good areas to add some danger setting things on fire with the halves of a roc and a dragon together.
There's nothing like that coming soon. I suppose that's not exactly correct, as we've added some new bits over the last few days, but it's not exactly a creation of new megabeasts.
Quote from: Nahere
Will summoned creatures count towards a secret holders ability to build a tower, or is that still just raised dead?
Their summoned creatures don't last that long. Nobody else bothers working either.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 01, 2019, 03:47:51 am
Follow up to my question about home towns then:
Do all party members have to come from the same civ, or do we get complete control over their origins? If that's possible, do they react well to being at war with each other?
Post by: Nahere on August 01, 2019, 05:29:54 am
Do all party members have to come from the same civ, or do we get complete control over their origins? If that's possible, do they react well to being at war with each other?For the first question:
For the second, no idea, but I could see it ending poorly depending on the relevant KILL_ENEMY ethics.Quote from: NahereWill all members of a starting party have to come from the same entity or will multicultural starting parties be possible?You can start your party from all over.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 01, 2019, 06:14:12 am
Thanks for the answers Toady!Oh, thanks. Didn't notice that one.Do all party members have to come from the same civ, or do we get complete control over their origins? If that's possible, do they react well to being at war with each other?For the first question:For the second, no idea, but I could see it ending poorly depending on the relevant KILL_ENEMY ethics.Quote from: NahereWill all members of a starting party have to come from the same entity or will multicultural starting parties be possible?You can start your party from all over.
...
Edit
Ah, 2018! That'd be why. :)
Post by: ZM5 on August 01, 2019, 06:21:52 am
Regarding the fail-safe checks for the dice, I take it there is also a check in place to ensure a fail roll doesn't result in the adventurer's death because they turn into a fish and air-drown? ;p
On a more serious note, is the time limit for summoned creatures a hardcoded part of the interaction or will that be definable?
Post by: zakarum on August 01, 2019, 11:28:15 am
1. Regarding new capturing mechanics, if it makes the cut, are you aiming for it to be broad enough so you can capture other creatures, like wildlife or beast such as dragons? What about titans and megabeasts? If yes how would you handle gigantic beasts or megabeasts such as Bronze Colossi?
2. Will the new capturing mechanics and interrogation system spell an end for the indestructible chains/cages that current exist? Will there be prison breaks with the interrogation part of this update or is that far ahead?
3. Will creatures with magical powers (demons, necromancers) use their powers to further their plots? The classic here would be doing a deal with the devil in exchange for something. But a necromancer could raise an intelligent dead to manipulate/infiltrate somewhere.
Post by: Death Dragon on August 01, 2019, 02:33:49 pm
With the changes to evil regions, is it now easier to tell if an evil region is a reanimator region or can that still only be found out by making a fort and checking if your butchering refuse comes back to life?
Does that mean you can get a permanent (?) weapon or pet as a reward from the divination dice rolls, or did you mean you can get a blessing that will make your weapon more effective in combat?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWhat are some of the lucky dice roll blessings that you mention in the Steam update?Item? Pet? Healing? Are those new interaction effects?
Post by: Inarius on August 01, 2019, 05:13:09 pm
Quote
You can select your home town manually now, and it gives a little summary of the population. If you have multiple party members, then you can start in any one of their home towns.
Could it be possible to have a little summary of the population when you get to cities ? Sometimes it's hard to know the "real" size of a city when you are in adventure mode...
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 01, 2019, 06:02:25 pm
Is there currently any sort of limitation in place for what percentage of the population necromancers/demons will take to experiment on? I could see quite a few settlements getting pretty weird pretty quickly if the bad guy is just allowed to transform everyone (which would be fun, but might also take away from immersion).
Post by: voliol on August 01, 2019, 07:21:57 pm
Good to hear getting the tangents out of your system helped, and that we get quite some goodies out of it.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on August 01, 2019, 07:53:01 pm
With the adventurers as villains content, and the new actions necromancers and demons (with the death sphere I presume) can do in creating experimental creatures and undead types, could player necromancers do the same things when it comes time for adventure mode villainy?
Post by: Immortal-D on August 01, 2019, 08:22:39 pm
You mentioned earlier that stress & memory fixes will most likely happen before The Big Wait, but can you say if you'll be able to look at those before Steam release?
Post by: Death Dragon on August 01, 2019, 08:54:09 pm
With the adventurers as villains content, and the new actions necromancers and demons (with the death sphere I presume) can do in creating experimental creatures and undead types, could player necromancers do the same things when it comes time for adventure mode villainy?I was just about to ask this, too. Would be pretty nice, but probably too difficult to implement right now, especially because it's still kinda a tangent. Not even sure if these Frankenstein experiments will happen outside of worldgen.
Did Toady ever confirm if player necromancers can summon intelligent undead by the way?
On a more serious note, is the time limit for summoned creatures a hardcoded part of the interaction or will that be definable?[/color]In the reply, he said: "If the summon doesn't have a timer, they are just a person/animal/etc., though they don't have cultural links and so forth. "
So I guess it might be doable, but who knows.
Post by: falcc on August 01, 2019, 09:17:32 pm
1. Some demons know and intone the names of all things. Do they automatically know the names of all ghosts? Can they identify secret agents any better than average?
2. Is a dead adventurer raised as an intelligent undead after game over playable again? What if someone other than another of your adventurers is the one that raised them? Can they potentially be ghosts, and could you play them as ghosts?
3. What do ghosts do mechanically when it comes to moving from place to place? Are they flying? Do they pass through walls like a late game Larn character? Do the different kinds of ghosts that appear in fort mode now affect the abilities these new ghosts have? Does that mean some can pick up items, and how will their movement effect such a thing?
4. What do summoned beings know if they're intelligent? Are they blank arena mode style vessels? If you summon a mountable animal, can you ride it? If you summon a creature that knows and intones the names of all things can it banish ghosts?
5. With proc gen creatures finally roaming the world at smaller-than-titanic sizes, is there going to be any place in game to see the creature size number? Even picking animal people adventurers is a challenge right now. If I'm a bluejay person coming across a bright green N, which started out as a kea, but is small overall I've already got a pretty difficult time making a threat assessment even before I even know if its size has changed in the transformation.
6. Most importantly, can you pet the large nightmarish beings, and once you get to having feelings about being pet, what are they gonna think about that?
Post by: squamous on August 02, 2019, 02:43:09 am
You mentioned that the subjects of magical experiments could join populations. Through this, is it possible to introduce non-procedurally generated races into the world? Say I make Race X, and make an interaction so that a wizard type will focus on creating Race X in large numbers (or at least just create them in general), with the intent of seeding the world with this artificial race. Would that all work smoothly? Also, as of now there is a way to have non-necromancer wizards live in towns. By not giving them a "raise undead" ability, they'll hang out in civilizations and even end up ruling them instead of making towers. Could that also have an impact on the spread of Race X? On that note, how do they spawn at all, after escaping from a necromancer I mean. Do they become wilderness creatures like animal people with a chance to join towns or will they directly migrate to a settlement?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 02, 2019, 02:57:04 am
They probably join civs in the same way animal people, gorlaks and plump helmet people civilize. So your new race would need whatever tag makes that work right now (local_pops_produce_heroes?)
You mentioned that the subjects of magical experiments could join populations. Through this, is it possible to introduce non-procedurally generated races into the world? Say I make Race X, and make an interaction so that a wizard type will focus on creating Race X in large numbers (or at least just create them in general), with the intent of seeding the world with this artificial race. Would that all work smoothly? Also, as of now there is a way to have non-necromancer wizards live in towns. By not giving them a "rais undead" flag, they'll hang out in civilizations and even end up ruling them. Could that also have an impact on the spread of Race X?
Post by: DG on August 02, 2019, 03:13:51 am
5. With proc gen creatures finally roaming the world at smaller-than-titanic sizes, is there going to be any place in game to see the creature size number? [/color] Even picking animal people adventurers is a challenge right now. If I'm a bluejay person coming across a bright green N, which started out as a kea, but is small overall I've already got a pretty difficult time making a threat assessment even before I even know if its size has changed in the transformation.
This has been suggested. An argument has been made that a size number would break immersion.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155144.0
Post by: ZM5 on August 02, 2019, 04:14:26 am
On a more serious note, is the time limit for summoned creatures a hardcoded part of the interaction or will that be definable?[/color]In the reply, he said: "If the summon doesn't have a timer, they are just a person/animal/etc., though they don't have cultural links and so forth. "
So I guess it might be doable, but who knows.
Ah, hm. Still kinda confused on how it'll play out in actual gameplay, since I presume the summoned undead lieutenants (in order to perform their jobs effectively) don't have OPPOSED_TO_LIFE, as that'd make them auto-hostile to the people they'd interact with...but then, if they also have no civ links or relation to the person who summoned them, wouldn't they just stand idly by if someone were to attack the summoner? I remember that from doing some experiments with reanimated minions that don't have OPPOSED_TO_LIFE, they disappointingly wouldn't really attack anything (short of auto-hostile creatures like berserk werebeasts or megabeasts) even if the reanimator was attacked, so I was kinda wondering if this'd also be the case here.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 02, 2019, 04:20:44 am
Yeah, the argument was basically that size absolutely does need to be addressed, in a way that's easy for a player to see quickly, but that it would be better if that weren't an immersion breaking number (the same way most other things like weapon speed, damage resistance of a dorf's neck and such aren't shown even though internally they're all number based calculations).5. With proc gen creatures finally roaming the world at smaller-than-titanic sizes, is there going to be any place in game to see the creature size number? [/color] Even picking animal people adventurers is a challenge right now. If I'm a bluejay person coming across a bright green N, which started out as a kea, but is small overall I've already got a pretty difficult time making a threat assessment even before I even know if its size has changed in the transformation.
This has been suggested. An argument has been made that a size number would break immersion.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155144.0
A absolute new DF player doesn't know (at first) what a size 300,000 demon means, but he does have a fair idea of how dangerous something described as "20 times bigger than a [player_character_race]" is.
Either is better than "large", which we have right now.
Post by: Inarius on August 02, 2019, 04:42:41 am
I suppose it's a "yes", but just to be sure.
Post by: therahedwig on August 02, 2019, 07:16:54 am
Hm... It's a good thing we don't have haunted objects yet, knowing this game, the haunted cabinet will start plotting world domination and get put down the instant someone identifies it as a cabinet.
Post by: Bumber on August 02, 2019, 10:55:51 am
Post by: WordsandChaos on August 02, 2019, 12:35:13 pm
Quote
Collections of citizens can also be amalgamated into monstrous giants.If he ever finds a way to implement boats that he's happy with, we're going to end up with ascii versions of Necrofex collosi... probably as an unexplained accident.
Quote
it'll be wholesome to see them out in the worlds.... I'm not sure that's quite the right word for gargantuan-scale body horror, but I'm not complaining.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on August 02, 2019, 01:51:31 pm
QuoteCollections of citizens can also be amalgamated into monstrous giants.If he ever finds a way to implement boats that he's happy with, we're going to end up with ascii versions of Necrofex collosi... probably as an unexplained accident.Quoteit'll be wholesome to see them out in the worlds.... I'm not sure that's quite the right word for gargantuan-scale body horror, but I'm not complaining.
I would do the first thing intentionally the moment I can. Because hell to the yes on Necrofex colossi.
Post by: Beakromancer on August 02, 2019, 02:09:28 pm
EDIT: A better example would be a creature made from dwarves needing alcohol.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on August 02, 2019, 02:13:16 pm
Will magical experiments have different traits depending on what creatures they were made from? For example, a creature made from elfs being at peace with wildlife.
Seems like a bit of an oxymoron, a creature made through death magic (and ostensibly being opposed to life in general because of that) being at peace with at least some of the very things it'd have been made to kill.
Post by: Pillbo on August 02, 2019, 02:31:34 pm
You mentioned that the subjects of magical experiments could join populations. Through this, is it possible to introduce non-procedurally generated races into the world? Say I make Race X, and make an interaction so that a wizard type will focus on creating Race X in large numbers (or at least just create them in general), with the intent of seeding the world with this artificial race. Would that all work smoothly? Also, as of now there is a way to have non-necromancer wizards live in towns. By not giving them a "rais undead" flag, they'll hang out in civilizations and even end up ruling them. Could that also have an impact on the spread of Race X?
Along those lines: Could a necromancer hide in plain sight in a civ by only raising intelligent undead minions? If the humans or whatever can't recognize rotting flesh or gaping wounds in a person running around a necromancer with intelligent undead minions would look more like an organized crime ring, gang, or if they are clever enough a performance troup, guild, or cult.
Unrelated question- Are aquatic megabeasts planned for some point? I imagine they are an addition for when boats happen, but it would be cool to have Kraken or monstrous whales drag themselves out of the sea to attack a coastal fort, or lurking in the shallows to ambush.
Thanks for the answers, the last few weeks of dev notes have been very exciting!
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 02, 2019, 03:58:19 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 02, 2019, 06:56:51 pm
Quoteit'll be wholesome to see them out in the worlds.... I'm not sure that's quite the right word for gargantuan-scale body horror, but I'm not complaining.
A flash of teeth and ripping steel as the axelords get to work trying to reduce this many headed writhe of bodies into lunchmeat.
Are dwarves fearful of these magical experiments/roughly average to the effect of fighting the undead, or will they cut them down with as much regard to their attitude to battle as wildlife or other sentients?
Experiment doesn't infer that they're actually un-alive, just possibly dorf-centipeded to send alcohol into one dwarf's stomachs when they inexplicably somehow consume a flagon or barrel of booze, then through multiple bodies, then a tantrum throwing sober dwarf sown in there at the end somewhere unable to drink the consumed alcohol who punches the dwarf head at the top with whatever control they have of one arm of the body.
Erm less satirically and more practically they might just get ressurected by a necro or arrive already undead with them if i understand correctly without any further elaboration.
Can 'magical experiments' be revived by necromancer zombie summoning? That sounds messy potentially to have a amalgamated monster of many limbs split off into arm-zombies. Also quite !!fun!!
Post by: Death Dragon on August 03, 2019, 12:30:24 am
Do war declarations, etc depend on the values of the actual ruler or does diplomacy right now depend on the civ's average values instead?
Post by: WordsandChaos on August 03, 2019, 04:06:04 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 03, 2019, 05:10:23 am
With the villain update, if a goblin from a goblin civ obtains the title of king over a human or dwarven civ through a coup and intrigue, will that civ then start to act more similarly to a goblin one because of the goblin king's values, which originate from a goblin civ? For example, will a human/dwarven civ that is ruled by a goblin from a goblin civ be more likely to declare wars?
Do war declarations, etc depend on the values of the actual ruler or does diplomacy right now depend on the civ's average values instead?
Yes, the goblin's core personality from its own civ won't change without some emotional introspection, only second generation citizens in a foriegn nation commit to a full value flip to go 'native'. So if the evil goblin monarch kicks the bucket and their son born inside the Dwarf civ (with marriage to a refugee goblin for example) is named heir the neo-dwarf goblin is still going to have a terrible temper and murderous disposition, but they'll have dwarven ethics. A beard too most probably.
The kind of not cavalier but often aggressive attitude of goblins will brush up against other civ leaders and prompt them to go to war more often, especially since they're often not as charismatic as demon leaders either especially if they favor dreams of power, enjoy violence and prize martial prowess. Though some civs just declare wars because goblins are liars and decietful. (pretty scandalous for dwarves)
Actual societal change won't occur until the law arc where its scheduled, but a untoppled immortal ursurper can still destabilise the kingdom in a single lifetime.
Actually, facetious as my earlier comment about boats was, given that wagons are considered to be creatures, is it actually possible for the procedural body-horror abominations to incorporate wagons?
Undoubtedly same as the lawnmower modification, if there's wagons in your livestock by some odd means (probably a bit of deliberate poking around) it can probably happen, otherwise id think its just wierd.
Post by: golemgunk on August 03, 2019, 07:36:28 pm
When a fort in worldgen breaches the underworld and falls to demons, do all the demons stay in their new home or is there a chance that some may choose to set out and work on their own schemes?
Post by: Inarius on August 04, 2019, 05:18:30 am
Have you seen the "Dwaven Language Codifier" here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.0) ? And if yes, what are your thoughts about it ?
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 04, 2019, 06:12:26 am
Can the ghosts necromancers raise attack people like the murderous ghosts that sometimes appear in forts? Can you physically fight a ghost?
When a fort in worldgen breaches the underworld and falls to demons, do all the demons stay in their new home or is there a chance that some may choose to set out and work on their own schemes?
The ghosts seem to be the same vein as intelligent undead than general units, i think its unlikely that a necromancer could summon semi-corporeal ghosts of your fortress en-masse, which might be very scary on some saves with inadequate or cramped burial chambers. Lets hope they have some sort of common weakness like silver or metals like werebeasts do, Toady might explain more when we actually roll over to fortress mode additions, for purposes i think that summoning a ghost at the moment makes them corporeal enough to hit typically, even if the damage is negated a little bit compared to a mortal person.
To your second question - link to june fotf reply part 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977326#msg7977326)
Quote from: ToadyOne
Quote from: ShonaidwellerSo are these new civs basically goblin civs lead by a released demon? Or actual full-on hell civs packed with demons and a couple of goblins thrown in? Do they create the initial goblins?
They have goblins so that they can behave normally, but they have a pack of 5-20 non-civ-leader underworld demons to make them scarier, and they also have a standard demon leader. All of these creatures are created on the spot, as the underworld is assumed to have unnumbered amounts of such beings currently, though the goblin is faked and indeed it just checks for the EVIL tag on them, the good old EVIL tag. I didn't bother simulating their underworld pops on account of time and the upcoming magic release clarification of these matters.
I dont think they disperse without a good reason unless actual new settlements appear of that 'civilisation' (conquered or the goblins set it up) in which the other demons might try to covet some lower hanging fruit of positions, become spies, or something else. Nothing to stop them plotting against anybody straight away either or against the leader demon if they're more preoccupied on that rather than the civ's enemies.
Post by: MinerMan60101 on August 05, 2019, 09:51:40 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 06, 2019, 02:24:47 am
Will you add Sand to the embark indicators? Dfhack has it, and you already indicate dirt and clay presence.That's a suggestion, not a question, and thus belongs to the suggestion sub forum (and I assume it's already there, somewhere).
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 06, 2019, 05:18:08 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on August 08, 2019, 01:40:45 pm
Now that monasteries have been added as separate structures from temples, is it safe to assume that "monastery" has been taken out of the procgen pool for temple names?
In line with this:
Will we be able to designate monasteries in fortress mode?
Do you plan to change the way dead units are handled, so they don't clog up the list (there's an immigration issue there too)?
Post by: Eschar on August 08, 2019, 02:14:23 pm
Now that monasteries have been added as separate structures from temples, is it safe to assume that "monastery" has been taken out of the procgen pool for temple names?
In line with this:
Will we be able to designate monasteries in fortress mode?
Do you plan to change the way dead units are handled, so they don't clog up the list (there's an immigration issue there too)?
I thought there was a separate list for dead units.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on August 08, 2019, 05:29:35 pm
I thought there was a separate list for dead units.
Do you plan to change the way dead units are handled, so they don't clog up the list (there's an immigration issue there too)?
Clarification: I am referring to Nonsignificant creatures clogging up the dead units list, i.e. having to scroll past all those puppies :-(.
There's also that bug where the units list, when above 1,000, starts to reduce migration I think.
Will you add Sand to the embark indicators? Dfhack has it, and you already indicate dirt and clay presence.
Seconded on this.
Do existing changes also include the animated furniture? Can you as a necromancer, say, stitch new frankentrocities around a schist cabinet?
When you say you can create new monsters from amalgamating other creatures as a necromancer, can we do that in adventure mode and can we "invent" new creatures or are those just generated from the start?
I look forward to having a ball of various arms rampaging around a castle. Not so much one rampaging around my lever room.
Will the divination games be generated at the beginning of the world, or could new ones appear over time?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 09, 2019, 02:12:34 am
I know this is very much a suggestion, but I'm quite interested in hearing the reasoning behind the decision, as I'm sure you've considered the various options.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 09, 2019, 02:36:13 am
Have you considered splitting the Myth & Magic Big Wait into two Large Waits with a Systems Rewrite release in the middle? It seems to me that the systems rewrites that are going to break save compatibility really is a prerequisite for the actual Myth & Magic stuff, but from the exterior it looks like you'd have to restore the current functionality using the redesigned map (etc.) as a starting point regardless, and it doesn't seem that much of that would have to be torn up again for the magic stuff. Doing it in two steps has the advantages of play testing (i.e. bug finding), and reducing a very uncomfortably long period of no releases into two merely quite uncomfortable ones.A year long wait followed by a release in which absolutely nothing has (visibly) changed? Fun for the bug testers maybe. But since they seem to officially exist now with Kitfox mentioning "beta testing", not an awful lot of reason to release to the public.
I know this is very much a suggestion, but I'm quite interested in hearing the reasoning behind the decision, as I'm sure you've considered the various options.
What about Waiting is uncomfortable? Devblogs will be coming weekly, serious crash bugs will be fixed with emergency patches this time. Doesn't seem like a big deal after building up the Wait hype for years.
Post by: therahedwig on August 09, 2019, 04:24:53 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 09, 2019, 07:43:28 am
I'm aware that the map rewrite is a huge task, and that it isn't the only save compatibility breaking change that's likely to be made. However, it doesn't seem to me that mythgen has much of an influence on map mechanics (sure, evil/savagery replacement with spheres affects maps, but there's no real need for a working mythgen process to be able to use those maps: they could be the hard coded results of a not yet implemented mythgen process: as long as the usage of those hard coded values act as if the input was generated, there shouldn't be any dependency [apart from the bugs that would lurk in the parts of the code that isn't executed: those bugs will have to wait]).
Post by: DG on August 09, 2019, 08:11:41 am
fakedit, found a reference:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Death Dragon on August 09, 2019, 11:11:07 am
"beta testing"Huh, with paid beta testers or volunteer testers from the community?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 09, 2019, 11:34:30 am
No idea. Comment is on this week's Steam update."beta testing"Huh, with paid beta testers or volunteer testers from the community?
But they have to come up with something. Can't release a paid game on Steam and hope for the community to bug report the first version out like usual.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 09, 2019, 02:12:58 pm
Wasn't there the example of a world made out of pieces of cosmic eggshell affecting map mechanics?Yes, but this only means the map logic has to be capable of handling cosmic egg shells and the like, i.e. provide a mechanism for those to be placed on the map (as well as to grow the map around them, when appropriate), and it's quite possible Toady will define them in his usual way, i.e. such that they can be generated procedurally using a set of rules for the outcome. However, this just means the mechanism to place such things has to be present, not the capability of actually generate any of them (and, in fact, the mechanism to place them doesn't have to be present either, only the hooks required to do it).
fakedit, found a reference:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'd expect such a mechanism to be capable of using multiple generated inorganic materials (and possibly organic ones too, and probably ordinary ones as well, such as e.g. gold metal [as well as gold bearing ore]), together with rules for how to place it (a big shell, a cube, shattered pieces of different sizes, etc.). While the resulting map engine may be capable of placing cosmic egg shells on maps, the "current" world wouldn't generate them.
Post by: AliceRed on August 09, 2019, 05:40:07 pm
Wasn't there the example of a world made out of pieces of cosmic eggshell affecting map mechanics?Yes, but this only means the map logic has to be capable of handling cosmic egg shells and the like, i.e. provide a mechanism for those to be placed on the map (as well as to grow the map around them, when appropriate), and it's quite possible Toady will define them in his usual way, i.e. such that they can be generated procedurally using a set of rules for the outcome. However, this just means the mechanism to place such things has to be present, not the capability of actually generate any of them (and, in fact, the mechanism to place them doesn't have to be present either, only the hooks required to do it).
fakedit, found a reference:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'd expect such a mechanism to be capable of using multiple generated inorganic materials (and possibly organic ones too, and probably ordinary ones as well, such as e.g. gold metal [as well as gold bearing ore]), together with rules for how to place it (a big shell, a cube, shattered pieces of different sizes, etc.). While the resulting map engine may be capable of placing cosmic egg shells on maps, the "current" world wouldn't generate them.
Didn't Toady mention that he plans on having things like the Underworld be replaced with procedurally generated, unique environments in future versions of the game? Alongside more distinctive magic/fantasy environments on the surface ground like MythGen-unique cities, structures and locations, as well as presumably other dimensions once the off-map stuff starts being worked on. Perhaps the map rewrite has to do with setting up these elements.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 10, 2019, 03:03:54 am
Toady has already mentioned that multiple viewports won't be in the first Myth & Magic release, but the rewrite will still provide the foundation for it.
Post by: Nopenope on August 14, 2019, 05:06:58 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 14, 2019, 01:50:34 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on August 14, 2019, 09:13:21 pm
With the myth release, will the prayer system in adventure mode be changed so that when you talk to your deity in a high-magic world, the deity might actually respond (whether by physically talking back or through some sort of "sign")?Yep. This was explictly stated some time ago. Along with different planes which can be planes for each deity.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 14, 2019, 09:46:33 pm
Could you give more detail on the exact mechanisms behind tantrums/depression/stumbling around and the resulting insanity? (Not talking about strange moods, which are already extensively detailed) Like, what are the exact stress thresholds to reach, successful rolls to pass, relevant personality traits (beyond the already known propensities), effects of mayoral consoling, and so on?Be aware that stress is not working as intended. Intended thresholds and what's actually going on are two very different things probably.
Post by: Kiloku on August 14, 2019, 10:09:16 pm
Anyway, what I want to ask Toady is:
Will we ever be able to make foreign weapons such as pikes, morning stars, lashes etc. in our fortresses? Maybe a way for the group (or maybe just individual dwarves) to learn how to make them somehow?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 14, 2019, 11:20:03 pm
Is there any index of asked/answered questions? Maybe sorted by topic, or at least in an easy UI to skim until you find what you're thinking? The forum's search function isn't great, and the thread is huge now.No. I asked about this before and even thought about putting something together. Toady prefers that, besides the official info on the Dev pages, info here (and elsewhere) is subject to change so shouldn't be laid out officially. Search works OK. Just takes a while (remember it's not just one thread).
Post by: MrWiggles on August 14, 2019, 11:50:03 pm
Is there any index of asked/answered questions? Maybe sorted by topic, or at least in an easy UI to skim until you find what you're thinking? The forum's search function isn't great, and the thread is huge now.If it seems reasonable for the dorfs to be able to do it, the answer is yes. Broadly Speaking Brother Adams have talked about Civiliation Knowledge and dorfs being able to learn other Civlization sercrets and being able to spread it. This is what in part the books are for.
Anyway, what I want to ask Toady is:
Will we ever be able to make foreign weapons such as pikes, morning stars, lashes etc. in our fortresses? Maybe a way for the group (or maybe just individual dwarves) to learn how to make them somehow?
It hasnt been spoken how civliativation on a whole learns. But invidual dorfs will be able to, eventually. And there been talk about apprentices before. Though ToadyOne is a hems and haws at adding more jobs/roles, as the more them they are, the more dorfs are needed to run about the fort.
Post by: feelotraveller on August 15, 2019, 04:07:56 pm
Will we ever be able to make foreign weapons such as pikes, morning stars, lashes etc. in our fortresses? Maybe a way for the group (or maybe just individual dwarves) to learn how to make them somehow?
It is possible at the moment under specific circumstances.
A dwarf with a preference for a foreign weapon (it happens, though rarely) who enters a strange mood as a weaponsmith will almost certainly make an artifact weapon of that type.
But I take it your question was more about making them on demand in the mundane sense like native weapons. Prior to the myth and magic update I suspect that the answer is no. After it, the list of weapons regarded as 'native' for a given race will likely be procedurally generated. I don't think there are any plans to allow races to learn how to (generally) make foreign weapons - could be a topic for the suggestion board, though. ;)
Post by: seht on August 18, 2019, 09:06:17 pm
Will vampires and necromancers automatically be villains, or is villainy something that follows from personality traits?
Edit: Ty Helmet Man, my global dark userstyle greys all text, I never had a clue about the color coding lol...
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 18, 2019, 09:31:55 pm
What's the current difference between world generation and world activation? As in, what stops with the former?
Will vampires and necromancers automatically be villains, or is villainy something that follows from personality traits?
Toady will only answer questions highlighted in lime green.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on August 18, 2019, 11:25:01 pm
What were the parameters for generating the dwarven language (i.e. seed)? Sorry to ask but it would kind of help to be able to err... "fill in" certain... missing words.
Will it be possible for, say, hostile religious cults to take a hold or carry out their conspiracies within your fortress with the upcoming release?
Post by: golemgunk on August 19, 2019, 12:16:24 am
Will it be possible for, say, hostile religious cults to take a hold or carry out their conspiracies within your fortress with the upcoming release?
I'm pretty sure that's the plan for when he get to fort mode villainy after the adventure mode parts he's working on currently. Exactly how much of that will come through remains to be seen though.
Post by: MrWiggles on August 19, 2019, 02:23:18 pm
You can kinda do this already. You can do mulitple forts and set up roads and it'll be respected on the world map. Though there is a buffer zone between the two fort areas and that problem if I recall Toady has stated would presist to any off site creation.Will it be possible for, say, hostile religious cults to take a hold or carry out their conspiracies within your fortress with the upcoming release?
I'm pretty sure that's the plan for when he get to fort mode villainy after the adventure mode parts he's working on currently. Exactly how much of that will come through remains to be seen though.
Post by: Inarius on August 19, 2019, 05:19:57 pm
Post by: Bumber on August 19, 2019, 08:19:31 pm
Once i had a world with two continents separated by an internal see, a bit like the strait of Gibraltar, and i built a fortress to "connect" with an underwater tunnel, then i abandonned the fortress. I don't think armies or anyone "understood" that they could use the tunnel. (as an adventurer, I could, though ^^ ). So i'm not completely sure you can.
I've heard that any site can be used as a bridge, regardless of what you build in it. Info is from some version between world activation (0.40.01) and raiding (0.44.01) updates.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 20, 2019, 03:01:46 am
I haven't tried that strategy with mountains, but would assume it works the same.
Of course, if there's not an actual connection at the local level an adventurer would still have to swim of fly to get across: it's one of the disconnections between fortress and adventurer mode.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 21, 2019, 10:07:13 pm
No, it's not a Suggestion. Move along please.
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 22, 2019, 05:16:21 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 22, 2019, 05:30:58 am
As you increasingly create features that every roguelike would want (a legit combat system, say), can you open-source those particular bits of code?N.....
Well OK, let's wait for the official answer (but that's probably the letter it starts with). But just think a moment, Dwarf Fortress combat system works because Dwarf Fortress simulates the physical bits and pieces of every creature in the game and knows the effect of hitting them with blunt and pointy objects. Pretty much no other roguelike does that, so the combat system code wouldn't really be of any use to anyone by itself. Most of the systems are connected in a way that makes sense to Dwarf Fortress and not much else.
So you could ask if Toady's going to Open Source the whole thing, but I reckon we all know the answer to that one.
Post by: acastells on August 22, 2019, 05:56:18 am
Post by: therahedwig on August 22, 2019, 06:24:41 am
We will see plots against our adventure mode party ? I mean, we are going to expose a lot of criminals so its logic they want to assasinate us.You should make your questions limegreen so they're easier to see :)
That said, this has been mentioned several times as one of the endgoals of the whole criminal organisation simulation, so yes :)
Post by: Jack_Caboose on August 23, 2019, 07:35:55 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 24, 2019, 02:58:09 am
Since a map rewrite is coming as part of the Big Wait, are there any plans to make sites less-hardcoded as a part of it? For example, having player-defined sites and buildings as options for civs other than hillocks, fortresses, etc., or the option to generate player-defined buildings similar to megabeast shrines that can have custom loot or creatures?Given that DF will get procedurally generated races in more or less weird worlds, the map rewrite will have to allow for sites that conform to procedurally generated layout rules. However, whether Toady plans to eventually allow for the procedurally generated rules to be overridden by rules in raws can only be answered by him.
Post by: Su on August 24, 2019, 08:53:48 am
i'm hoping to create an extension of the classic tileset using unicode symbols, but i don't have the time or energy to make copies for all the different colourations of each symbol, so: will the new tileset features be compatible with the current release's automatic tile recoloring?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 24, 2019, 06:21:35 pm
Meph's commercial tileset seems to be coloured by hand rather than using the classic tileset's automatic recoloring.The new tileset is based on the changes that will be made to Dward Fortress in order to allow such tilesets to be used.
i'm hoping to create an extension of the classic tileset using unicode symbols, but i don't have the time or energy to make copies for all the different colourations of each symbol, so: will the new tileset features be compatible with the current release's automatic tile recoloring?
Post by: Su on August 25, 2019, 09:52:38 am
Meph's commercial tileset seems to be coloured by hand rather than using the classic tileset's automatic recoloring.The new tileset is based on the changes that will be made to Dward Fortress in order to allow such tilesets to be used.
i'm hoping to create an extension of the classic tileset using unicode symbols, but i don't have the time or energy to make copies for all the different colourations of each symbol, so: will the new tileset features be compatible with the current release's automatic tile recoloring?
so, no?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 25, 2019, 04:32:14 pm
I wouldn't expect any loss of functionality, no. Just the option to override it for graphical sets. Not sure what you mean by "compatible" though.Meph's commercial tileset seems to be coloured by hand rather than using the classic tileset's automatic recoloring.The new tileset is based on the changes that will be made to Dward Fortress in order to allow such tilesets to be used.
i'm hoping to create an extension of the classic tileset using unicode symbols, but i don't have the time or energy to make copies for all the different colourations of each symbol, so: will the new tileset features be compatible with the current release's automatic tile recoloring?
so, no?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 26, 2019, 02:27:07 am
As far as I understand, the new functionality will allow for a broader palette of colors, as well as a wider range of characters for character mode (i.e. replacement of the 8 bit code page functionality with something else [I think it's still unknown if it's going to be fixed width or variable width]), plus a bunch of other things. These things mean there are going to be changes, but, as Shonai_Dweller said, while current functionality probably won't be lost, that doesn't mean you won't have to adapt to make "old" functionality work the same in the new framework.I wouldn't expect any loss of functionality, no. Just the option to override it for graphical sets. Not sure what you mean by "compatible" though.Meph's commercial tileset seems to be coloured by hand rather than using the classic tileset's automatic recoloring.The new tileset is based on the changes that will be made to Dward Fortress in order to allow such tilesets to be used.
i'm hoping to create an extension of the classic tileset using unicode symbols, but i don't have the time or energy to make copies for all the different colourations of each symbol, so: will the new tileset features be compatible with the current release's automatic tile recoloring?
so, no?
Post by: Phenoix12 on August 26, 2019, 01:04:57 pm
1. Will we be able to set plots in motion during fortress mode. Such as appointing a dwarf to something akin to a spymaster and having him go out on mission to create plots for us. Like assassinating the leader of the elves. Or tricking the humans into going to war with the elves.
2. Will we eventually see even more complex and crazy plots and schemes. Love to see some xanatos gambits show up in some grand evil plots someday. Or even plots learning of and taking advantage of other people's plots for their own gains. (Like some 'hero' finds out about a plot to kidnap the son of the king but instead of stopping it he secretly sets his own plot into motion to allow the kidnapping to succeed only so he may later go 'rescue' the prince and return him to gain respect and political favors.)
3. At this time the only reason anyone wants to learn a secret is because they want to be immortal. Will other the other reasons to learn secrets eventually get their day in the sun; like 'wanting to rule the world', etc.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 26, 2019, 01:47:35 pm
Not sure if any of these have been asked before so... if they have someone point me to them.1. I believe the extent to which schemes can be carried out in fortress mode will have to await their implementation, i.e. Toady probably has a large list, but will inevitable have to draw a line well before the next year is through (and maybe even this year).
1. Will we be able to set plots in motion during fortress mode. Such as appointing a dwarf to something akin to a spymaster and having him go out on mission to create plots for us. Like assassinating the leader of the elves. Or tricking the humans into going to war with the elves.
2. Will we eventually see even more complex and crazy plots and schemes. Love to see some xanatos gambits show up in some grand evil plots someday. Or even plots learning of and taking advantage of other people's plots for their own gains. (Like some 'hero' finds out about a plot to kidnap the son of the king but instead of stopping it he secretly sets his own plot into motion to allow the kidnapping to succeed only so he may later go 'rescue' the prince and return him to gain respect and political favors.)
3. At this time the only reason anyone wants to learn a secret is because they want to be immortal. Will other the other reasons to learn secrets eventually get their day in the sun; like 'wanting to rule the world', etc.
3. There will eventually be more secrets, but I think new motives for learning the existing one is a novel approach. It will be interesting to hear Toady's answer (it's not uncommon in fantasy to have the motive for seeking immortality simply to allow time to perform [perfectly legitimate or otherwise] research and acquire knowledge, for example, and I think those kinds of necro towers may already be on their way into the game).
Post by: Beag on August 26, 2019, 04:31:30 pm
2. Will more legit organizations such as site governments, merchant companies and mercenary companies also appear in the organization tab in the intrigue menu?
3. If the player joined a group present in the organization menu would they appear on the graphic?(Currently it is possible to join bandits and criminal groups at least at an entry level).
4. Will special buildings like guild halls also appear in generated human settlements?
5. Will any of the new special buildings appear in elven settlements?(Unlikely I know but I thought I'd ask.)
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 27, 2019, 02:20:57 am
1. Will there be a chance that new races created by demon or necromancer could have inborn special/magical abilities?Assuming you mean in the upcoming release (rather than in/after the Myth&Magic arc) the answer is most likely no. There's little point in cobbling together something that immediately (in DF time terms) will have to be replaced. For the long term, I expect various special abilities to appear in some generated races.
:
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 27, 2019, 04:10:50 am
Well, if he's going to be testing out procgen critters in this release anyway, chances of also giving random innate powers a trial are fairly high. I mean, it won't be anything beyond what's already possible (poisonous bites, evil dust, fire breathing Fun, head-bumping power, etc).1. Will there be a chance that new races created by demon or necromancer could have inborn special/magical abilities?Assuming you mean in the upcoming release (rather than in/after the Myth&Magic arc) the answer is most likely no. There's little point in cobbling together something that immediately (in DF time terms) will have to be replaced. For the long term, I expect various special abilities to appear in some generated races.
:
Post by: therahedwig on August 27, 2019, 08:48:19 am
I suspect the guidhalls and such are in the towns and elven settlements too, the fortresses were just mentioned as the current fortress generator is the most fiddly of the settlement generators. (elven taverns are under a big tree, elven shops are just a tree, so either of these would be sufficient framework for now)
Post by: Bydth on August 28, 2019, 07:40:58 pm
Elaboration:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, while I’m here:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: alan8325 on August 29, 2019, 12:21:39 am
1. Will we get multi-level furniture? For example, grand doors that are 2+ z-levels high and multi-block statues, similar to trees?
2. Will
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: golemgunk on August 29, 2019, 12:59:33 am
Willbe changed a proper plane of existence?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This is part of what makes the rewrite necessary, hell and other places are going to exist as separate planes as part of the myth & magic update.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 29, 2019, 01:02:34 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 29, 2019, 02:12:00 am
Couple questions on the map rewrite:There is going to be a multi tile mechanisms/traps arc some time after the Myth&Magic arc. This arc may include boats, unless those are introduced earlier (Toady is grappling with the mutual dependency between boats and economy). Things mentioned in this context are elevators, more elaborate traps using multiple tiles, multi level entrances, etc. One would assume the map rewrite is going to take these future changes into account by allowing for them to be introduced, ideally by having the framework in place ("ideally" in the sense that things often run into complications when you're actually implementing a feature).
1. Will we get multi-level furniture? For example, grand doors that are 2+ z-levels high and multi-block statues, similar to trees?
:
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 29, 2019, 02:30:43 am
Boats is the moving parts arc. They are literally "moving bits of map" (in the plans so far mentioned). So it will include boats.Couple questions on the map rewrite:There is going to be a multi tile mechanisms/traps arc some time after the Myth&Magic arc. This arc may include boats, unless those are introduced earlier (Toady is grappling with the mutual dependency between boats and economy). Things mentioned in this context are elevators, more elaborate traps using multiple tiles, multi level entrances, etc. One would assume the map rewrite is going to take these future changes into account by allowing for them to be introduced, ideally by having the framework in place ("ideally" in the sense that things often run into complications when you're actually implementing a feature).
1. Will we get multi-level furniture? For example, grand doors that are 2+ z-levels high and multi-block statues, similar to trees?
:
Only question is if it comes before or after the economy.
Post by: Renarin21 on August 29, 2019, 07:46:33 am
Post by: Thundercraft on August 29, 2019, 10:00:18 pm
Also, in fort mode, will players eventually be able to trade artifacts, at least between sites within our fort's civilization?
Post by: scourge728 on August 29, 2019, 11:09:04 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 29, 2019, 11:58:12 pm
Are player necromancers going to be able to do the corrupting of citizens and other such experiments on things?I suspect one would need a proper necro tower to conduct new species breeding experiments. One for the playable wizard tower arc probably?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 30, 2019, 12:01:30 am
Now that we have the ability to retire and unretire a Fortress,Trading artifacts has been a thing since...last version? Maybe a bit before that. Selling them (or giving them away) anyhow. Do you mean buying them from other forts? Can't do that yet (at least I've never seen the merchants turn up with any besides books and I don't think you can request them).
Also, in fort mode, will players eventually be able to trade artifacts, at least between sites within our fort's civilization?
Yellowgreen. Nice. Easy on the eyes.
Post by: AliceRed on August 30, 2019, 09:57:49 pm
These new horrific necromancer/demon creations, are they likely to be one of the things modified by the tone meter you mentioned for future, myth and magic versions of the game? If so, I'm increasingly excited to see what that meter is like turned all the way up in a few years.
Post by: voliol on August 31, 2019, 06:42:56 am
You mentioned one of the dice effects is a syndrome which turns your adventurer into an animal. Could this lead to the ability to make creatures which only reproduce by turning other creatures into more of them in gameplay? Curious since aside from Vamps and Werebeasts I believe that only exists in worldgen right now, and is a very common fantasy trope.
Everything in worldgen is planned to sooner or later make it into post-worldgen/play, so considering vamps and werebeasts (and night trolls) already exist it will happen sooner or later. I don't see any direct connection between the dice effects and the effects you describe, but Toady has said he added "new tags to make polymorph-type abilities more versatile" (link (http://bay12games.com/dwarves//?20190725#2019-07-25)), so that might be it. Also, if e.g. vampire turning is considered a "villain plan" they might make it in this next version due to that.
Are vampire/werebeast turning (not by curse) and night troll kidnappings considered "villain plans" that will be properly implemented by these beastly villains post-worldgen? Or have you advanced past the stage of adding villain plans, and they were not added when you did?
Post by: George_Chickens on August 31, 2019, 03:38:15 pm
Post by: Thundercraft on September 01, 2019, 10:08:10 am
Thanks for the reply. I was primarily thinking of literally trading - i.e., swapping one for one - between forts within our own civilization. But the buying/selling was implied. And I must have forgotten that recent versions now allows selling.Now that we have the ability to retire and unretire a Fortress,Trading artifacts has been a thing since...last version? Maybe a bit before that. Selling them (or giving them away) anyhow. Do you mean buying them from other forts? Can't do that yet (at least I've never seen the merchants turn up with any besides books and I don't think you can request them).
Also, in fort mode, will players eventually be able to trade artifacts, at least between sites within our fort's civilization?
Yellowgreen. Nice. Easy on the eyes.Argh. I see that I've forgotten that, in Toady's example on how to ask questions, we were supposed to ask in limegreen. But I can agree that yellowgreen seems a bit more pleasant.
Post by: Schmaven on September 01, 2019, 12:04:23 pm
Yellowgreen. Nice. Easy on the eyes.Argh. I see that I've forgotten that, in Toady's example on how to ask questions, we were supposed to ask in limegreen. But I can agree that yellowgreen seems a bit more pleasant.
both are better than plain green
Post by: Doorkeeper on September 01, 2019, 01:04:33 pm
Yellowgreen. Nice. Easy on the eyes.Argh. I see that I've forgotten that, in Toady's example on how to ask questions, we were supposed to ask in limegreen. But I can agree that yellowgreen seems a bit more pleasant.
Yellow green is great, it really is better on the eyes. But I think lime green is bolder and highlights the text better, specifically in the Darkling theme. One or the other is fine, but not both. If people started using either colors, this thread may start to look like checkered vomit.
Post by: voliol on September 01, 2019, 03:57:33 pm
I hope the FDG conference went well Toady. Do you know if there will be a public archive of your keynote presentation? I sort of know what the presentation was about from this Twitter post (https://twitter.com/FDGconf/status/1166764570544705542) by FDG, and I also found this good Twitter live thread (https://twitter.com/noahwf/status/1166761242347786240) by one of the event listeners. It sounded really interesting. Congrats on the Award.
Is this the presentation Kitfox said would be up tomorrow (september 2:nd)(link to statement (https://steamcommunity.com/games/975370/announcements/detail/1607143370744128433)), or is it another one?
Also, it seems Tarn's beard is back. I suppose the intricacies of adding villainy called for an extra surge of dwarf power.
Post by: scourge728 on September 01, 2019, 04:00:14 pm
If people started using either colors, this thread may start to look like checkered vomit.youmeanlikethis?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 01, 2019, 04:39:40 pm
That's tomorrow.I hope the FDG conference went well Toady. Do you know if there will be a public archive of your keynote presentation? I sort of know what the presentation was about from this Twitter post (https://twitter.com/FDGconf/status/1166764570544705542) by FDG, and I also found this good Twitter live thread (https://twitter.com/noahwf/status/1166761242347786240) by one of the event listeners. It sounded really interesting. Congrats on the Award.
Is this the presentation Kitfox said would be up tomorrow (september 2:nd)(link to statement (https://steamcommunity.com/games/975370/announcements/detail/1607143370744128433)), or is it another one?
Also, it seems Tarn's beard is back. I suppose the intricacies of adding villainy called for an extra surge of dwarf power.
There's was PAX livestream interview today too Maybe it was a few hours ago?
Post by: falcc on September 02, 2019, 11:42:30 am
As of right now, rumors get cluttered up with "so and so was attacked by small animals" and the histories are full of "so and so attacked so and so, though the latter escaped unharmed." In the coming releases, will dishonest assassins be bribeable, and will they return with the rumor that they attacked their target, but they got away? I know lies would be extra code, but these rumors are already spreadable.
Also,
To what extent are the endless conversation topics about being attacked by animals that immediately run away used? Will telling these stories to the elves make them mad, under the hood somewhere? Do companions use these attacks to determine if you're taking them towards glory or death effectively enough? And are any filters planned before the big wait?
Post by: Hapchazzard on September 02, 2019, 02:55:57 pm
Post by: Doorkeeper on September 02, 2019, 05:06:37 pm
Is this the presentation Kitfox said would be up tomorrow (september 2:nd)(link to statement (https://steamcommunity.com/games/975370/announcements/detail/1607143370744128433)), or is it another one?That's tomorrow.
Also, it seems Tarn's beard is back. I suppose the intricacies of adding villainy called for an extra surge of dwarf power.
There's was PAX livestream interview today too Maybe it was a few hours ago?
The RPS interview w/ live DF game panel was held at the Sphinx Theatre, so it wasn't livestreamed (PAX only has Twitch live streams (https://www.twitch.tv/team/pax) for the Main, Hydra & Raven Theatres and PAX Arena). RockPaperShotgun will probably publish the video or transcript later.
Here's the Twitch VOD for today's presentation if you haven't seen it yet: https://player.twitch.tv/?video=475872864&t=02h (timestamped @ start of the panel)
Toady's FDG keynote was on Wednesday, Aug. 28. So far I haven't found a recording of that event. I also tried searching for recordings of other FDG presentations and past conferences, and there doesn't seem to be any.
If people started using either colors, this thread may start to look like checkered vomit.youmeanlikethis?
You vomit.
You retch.
You retch.
You vomit.
You retch. (x11)
But yeah, like that
Post by: Severedicks on September 02, 2019, 05:08:05 pm
Are bandit forts, monasteries or mercenary headquarters considered sites that you can raid, loot, raze or conquer?
Why were castles pulled out?
Can the fortress player make alliances with other civs?
Can intelligent undead arrive as migrants or visitors?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 02, 2019, 05:30:41 pm
Yes (devblog)
Are bandit forts, monasteries or mercenary headquarters considered sites that you can raid, loot, raze or conquer?
Why were castles pulled out?
Can the fortress player make alliances with other civs?
Castles were pulled? Was that something from the interview yesterday? They were meant to be part of the new building additions like monastries and bandit camps.
You don't play a civilization yet (that'd need an entirely new mode). You are a site belonging to a civ. So not at all likely.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 02, 2019, 05:34:14 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on September 03, 2019, 03:13:04 am
Post by: Nibblewerfer on September 03, 2019, 07:46:12 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 03, 2019, 09:55:58 pm
How do adventurers turned into animals by bad dice rolls not starve to death?I imagine the eat command isn't disabled? Why would it be?
Post by: JesterHell696 on September 03, 2019, 11:37:28 pm
I imagine the eat command isn't disabled? Why would it be?Do you need hands to access containers? I've never lost both hands and survived so I've never tested it myself.
Post by: Real_bang on September 03, 2019, 11:43:30 pm
Would cursed adventurers after turning into an animal and back heal their lost limbs like the werecreatures?
Post by: Nibblewerfer on September 04, 2019, 12:40:16 am
Quote
I imagine the eat command isn't disabled? Why would it be?You can only eat food that is in your inventory or being held by a grasping part. I suppose you could wrestle food out of someones hands with your mouth? You can drink water from streams so you wouldn't die of dehydration at the least.
Post by: ZM5 on September 04, 2019, 02:21:25 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 04, 2019, 02:23:51 am
The mouth wouldnt even be usable for wrestling so, yeah. You'd need to just have it in your inventory, but that would require some kind of change to how transformations work so you don't immediately drop everything you carry when you transformm.I think you would anyway if you transformed into an owl.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 04, 2019, 03:49:07 am
How do adventurers turned into animals by bad dice rolls not starve to death?Unless you're turned into a shrew (complete with the reduction in body size) you won't stare to death during a 12 hour transformation.
Actually this gives me one thoughtProbably not. I'd expect a basic attempt to preserve injuries into corresponding injuries in the new form, with things returned to the previous state when transformed back. By "basic" I mean major limb/sensory functionality that can be translated with some kind of ease, but not bother with fiddly details (translating arms and legs into legs or legs + wings would be reasonable, but lost digits translated to wing functionality would be harder). I'd also expect injuries sustained while transformed to be carried back using the same limited logic. Things get tricky when there isn't a suitable easy translation (such as 6 or 8 legs vs 4 limbs, or e.g. antennae vs tongue/nose).
Would cursed adventurers after turning into an animal and back heal their lost limbs like the werecreatures?
If a shape change single time "curse" would restore lost limbs I'd expect a flood of (probably adventurer only) people trying to get cur
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 04, 2019, 04:11:59 am
There's been one example so far (Toady's). He turned into an owl for a week.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 04, 2019, 11:34:16 am
12 hours?You're correct, of course. That's what you get for relying on a flaky memory...
There's been one example so far (Toady's). He turned into an owl for a week.
However, even a week isn't enough to starve a reasonably large creature to death.
Post by: Bumber on September 04, 2019, 04:11:50 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 04, 2019, 05:39:36 pm
Post by: Toady One on September 04, 2019, 09:24:22 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Follow up to my question about home towns then:
Do all party members have to come from the same civ, or do we get complete control over their origins? If that's possible, do they react well to being at war with each other?
Nahere: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004271#msg8004271
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=108160
Yeah, it doesn't restrict down the choices at all. My understanding is that they get along (in some minimal sense) based on the shared 'commander' variable, where their current tie to the player's character squashes other problems as long as it lasts.
Quote from: ZM5
Regarding the fail-safe checks for the dice, I take it there is also a check in place to ensure a fail roll doesn't result in the adventurer's death because they turn into a fish and air-drown? ;p
On a more serious note, is the time limit for summoned creatures a hardcoded part of the interaction or will that be definable?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004710#msg8004710
ZM5 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004812#msg8004812
Yeah, if I recollect, you can set the summon timer, including to no timer. And I remembered the fish case when I was writing the divination transform, ha ha ha. But there are probably some odd ones still.
Quote from: zakarum
1. Regarding new capturing mechanics, if it makes the cut, are you aiming for it to be broad enough so you can capture other creatures, like wildlife or beast such as dragons? What about titans and megabeasts? If yes how would you handle gigantic beasts or megabeasts such as Bronze Colossi?
2. Will the new capturing mechanics and interrogation system spell an end for the indestructible chains/cages that current exist? Will there be prison breaks with the interrogation part of this update or is that far ahead?
3. Will creatures with magical powers (demons, necromancers) use their powers to further their plots? The classic here would be doing a deal with the devil in exchange for something. But a necromancer could raise an intelligent dead to manipulate/infiltrate somewhere.
1. I do not yet know. Things like cages are notoriously goofy, so once an item like a rope is involved, we'd have to work for it to not also be deeply silly. But we're not sure yet if it'll involve items at all or just have to be something quick and simple to satisfy our current need (which would mean something more like a modification of the yield mechanic + the new pet leading stuff, etc.)
2. Dunno about fort stuff yet. Significant modifications to cages is too much to bite off now, but there's some room for a bit, especially as it relates to plots against the fort.
3. One of the necromancer plots is called 'undead animator world conquest' in the code, or something like that, and they use the proper powers there obviously. But generally, there's not a lot else to work with. The necromancers do use their intelligent undead and ghostly agents throughout there plots, and demons do that too when they have access to such powers.
Quote from: Death Dragon
With the changes to evil regions, is it now easier to tell if an evil region is a reanimator region or can that still only be found out by making a fort and checking if your butchering refuse comes back to life?
Does <quote from last Fotf> mean you can get a permanent (?) weapon or pet as a reward from the divination dice rolls, or did you mean you can get a blessing that will make your weapon more effective in combat?
Like in the embark interface? I haven't changed that, though you'll be able to tell sometimes just by seeing a tower at the center of the region now that they are dynamic.
Permanent stuff was actually easier to do than item enchantments (which I haven't revisited yet), but basic quality also.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Is there currently any sort of limitation in place for what percentage of the population necromancers/demons will take to experiment on? I could see quite a few settlements getting pretty weird pretty quickly if the bad guy is just allowed to transform everyone (which would be fun, but might also take away from immersion).
The people are all executed and turned into zombies otherwise, so they just go for it. Because they have zombies, living creatures simply cannot be tolerated, so the humans etc. all have to be affected in some way. To keep the exposition manageable currently (as we've said before, we're trying to ease into these procedural creatures from the edges), an individual necromancer sticks with one of each kind once they have a successful experiment (that is humanoid, small quad+, large quad+, giant.) Gives it kind of an Urukhai=Saruman feel. We'll slowly branch out from there.
Quote from: voliol
Are the experiment/giant amalgamation type creatures bright red Ñs, the color reserved for "constructed creatures" as stated in that old night creature DF talk? Are intelligent undead bright cyan Ñs?
Intelligent undead are bright cyan, yeah, and yeah, the experiments, despite not being exactly Frankensteinesque, were close enough that we went with the bright red N for them. We still want to do the Frankenstein's-monster-types, but it is harder.
Quote
Quote from: EternalCaveDragonWith the adventurers as villains content, and the new actions necromancers and demons (with the death sphere I presume) can do in creating experimental creatures and undead types, could player necromancers do the same things when it comes time for adventure mode villainy?Quote from: scourge728Are player necromancers going to be able to do the corrupting of citizens and other such experiments on things?Quote from: GeorgeChickensWill the player be able to perform the twisted necromancer experiments, or is it worldgen only?
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004710#msg8004710
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017739#msg8017739
Yeah, as suggested in the replies, it's a bit out of scope. It isn't an 'interaction' in the way the other powers are, because it's presumably occurring through some process that has additional inputs over time, etc. We'll be sorting these more complicated bits out with the magic stuff.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Do you know if the updated menus of the Steam release will include a revamp of the labor interface? Or will the Steam menus simply look prettier, but function the same?
You mentioned earlier that stress & memory fixes will most likely happen before The Big Wait, but can you say if you'll be able to look at those before Steam release?
Almost certainly. The current discussion is the balance between automatic labor style, spreadsheet style and other approaches. As we've said before, we don't want the spreadsheets to dominate the game, but automatic labor choices aren't precise enough for some people. Just doing everything is tempting, of course, but we'll only have so much time to work with. So we'll see.
It'd probably be prudent to take another crack at stress before Steam, yeah, and we'll probably have to keep working on it. It wouldn't surprise me if tweaks there end up being one of the things that happens *during* the Big Wait, with what we hope to be the new branches etc., since stress/happiness/etc. are so finicky and hard to tune.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Are these summonable "larger, nightmarish beings" basically the typical, random hell dwelling demons, or are they special in some specific way?
I haven't done anything super new here, but they do occupy a size space in between humanoids and gigantic FB/demon types, which we've hardly explored at all up to this point. The large experiment quads also are sized in this way.
Quote from: falcc
1. Some demons know and intone the names of all things. Do they automatically know the names of all ghosts? Can they identify secret agents any better than average?
2. Is a dead adventurer raised as an intelligent undead after game over playable again? What if someone other than another of your adventurers is the one that raised them? Can they potentially be ghosts, and could you play them as ghosts?
3. What do ghosts do mechanically when it comes to moving from place to place? Are they flying? Do they pass through walls like a late game Larn character? Do the different kinds of ghosts that appear in fort mode now affect the abilities these new ghosts have? Does that mean some can pick up items, and how will their movement effect such a thing?
4. What do summoned beings know if they're intelligent? Are they blank arena mode style vessels? If you summon a mountable animal, can you ride it? If you summon a creature that knows and intones the names of all things can it banish ghosts?
5. With proc gen creatures finally roaming the world at smaller-than-titanic sizes, is there going to be any place in game to see the creature size number? Even picking animal people adventurers is a challenge right now. If I'm a bluejay person coming across a bright green N, which started out as a kea, but is small overall I've already got a pretty difficult time making a threat assessment even before I even know if its size has changed in the transformation.
6. Most importantly, can you pet the large nightmarish beings, and once you get to having feelings about being pet, what are they gonna think about that?
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004795#msg8004795
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004813#msg8004813
1. Ha ha, flavor text of all kinds always comes back to haunt the living. Sphere-vault critters are even worse that way. Nothing yet.
2. I'm really not sure - the flags are all there, and they aren't removed as far as I know, so theoretically they'd be playable, the intelligent undead ones, barring something I missed. Ghosts have the additional uncertainty of being... more dead. More of the death variables are left intact for them (from ghosts in fort mode), so they have a higher chance of not being playable if old advs, I think.
3. They are completely removed from the path-finding checks - liquids, walls, air, whatever. They haven't been connected power/habits-wise to the old ghosts, since they are kind of different, but I can see that gap being bridged by the metaphysics stuff from mythgen. I do not recall how poltergeists currently work when picking up items in fort mode... do they items go through walls or does it change their path model? Don't remember.
4. They don't know anything. It is odd. I haven't tested the summoned mount case, and it depends on a few variables, so it'd need to be checked.
5. I think the comments have more or less addressed this; we'd like to use a different solution, many are available, and they all have issues. I'm not sure when we'll try to address it, but as noted, the addition of these sorts of creatures places another thumb on the scale, toward doing something about it at some point.
6. ... hmm... maybe not. I don't think a bogeyman can be pet, which is their closest cousin, because they are intelligent.
Quote
Quote from: squamousYou mentioned that the subjects of magical experiments could join populations. Through this, is it possible to introduce non-procedurally generated races into the world? Say I make Race X, and make an interaction so that a wizard type will focus on creating Race X in large numbers (or at least just create them in general), with the intent of seeding the world with this artificial race. Would that all work smoothly? Also, as of now there is a way to have non-necromancer wizards live in towns. By not giving them a "rais undead" flag, they'll hang out in civilizations and even end up ruling them. Could that also have an impact on the spread of Race X?Quote from: PillboAlong those lines: Could a necromancer hide in plain sight in a civ by only raising intelligent undead minions? If the humans or whatever can't recognize rotting flesh or gaping wounds in a person running around a necromancer with intelligent undead minions would look more like an organized crime ring, gang, or if they are clever enough a performance troup, guild, or cult.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004791#msg8004791
Yeah, Shonai_Dweller is correct about the tags. And generally, experimentation doesn't currently work through an interaction with an adjustable creature token the way other powers might work, since it isn't used the same way. The experimentation is a relatively complex pathway, as with FBs and other proc critters, so we'll have to sort out additional syntax later.
Experimenters don't currently use their own civilians, just conquests.
The necros can't hide in plain site forever because they don't age, and that makes people suspicious, but yeah, the intelligent undead don't yet make people suspicious (which is odd not just because of the rotting, but because they, like, should be recognizable to others that know them before they died... and they are... but those people don't care, ha ha ha. So much to do, later.)
Quote from: Inarius
Will we see our lands transformed into evil lands if an evil force installs itself near our fortress ? Will this process work after worldgen ?
Due to how the local populations are instanced from the regional ones, I suspect you won't necessarily see everything (given that I haven't started fort mode work yet!) I expect the general process to continue, but certain of those layered parts of it might not be easy to get working right away, though the animals and grasses seem doable.
Quote from: Bumber
How many souls do the amalgamated giants have? Do the amalgamations contain all the souls of the victims used, or are they considered to have died?
Right now it smushes a bunch of non-historical critters to a single historical critter, so the soul problem can be dodged. I'm sure it'll be more interesting when we start to fully embrace the multiple soul infrastructure that has been in place for like a decade but never used.
Quote from: Beakromancer
Will magical experiments have different traits depending on what creatures they were made from? For example, a creature made from elfs being at peace with wildlife.
EDIT: A better example would be a creature made from dwarves needing alcohol.
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005095#msg8005095
Haven't done anything like that yet! The creature generator does understand the input creature (at least on the first humanoid, before it starts defaulting to the same result to save memory), but doesn't use it beyond counting limbs and stuff to see if the output should be humanoid/quadruped/etc. and also the basic size.
Quote from: Pillbo
Are aquatic megabeasts planned for some point? I imagine they are an addition for when boats happen, but it would be cool to have Kraken or monstrous whales drag themselves out of the sea to attack a coastal fort, or lurking in the shallows to ambush.
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005154#msg8005154
Yeah, we probably won't seem them until then, side from the beaching zombie whales or whatever was known to happen on rare occasion, at least in the past.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Are dwarves fearful of these magical experiments/roughly average to the effect of fighting the undead, or will they cut them down with as much regard to their attitude to battle as wildlife or other sentients?
Experiment doesn't infer that they're actually un-alive, just possibly dorf-centipeded to send alcohol into one dwarf's stomachs when they inexplicably somehow consume a flagon or barrel of booze, then through multiple bodies, then a tantrum throwing sober dwarf sown in there at the end somewhere unable to drink the consumed alcohol who punches the dwarf head at the top with whatever control they have of one arm of the body.
Erm less satirically and more practically they might just get ressurected by a necro or arrive already undead with them if i understand correctly without any further elaboration.
Can 'magical experiments' be revived by necromancer zombie summoning? That sounds messy potentially to have a amalgamated monster of many limbs split off into arm-zombies. Also quite !!fun!!
Fear: It doesn't have an effect now. With the number of critters out there, I'm not even sure what the proper course of action is without adding a whole new system for exposure tracking and so forth.
My understanding is that dead experiments can be animated, based on the tags. The experiments don't kill the villagers at the time.
Quote from: Death Dragon
With the villain update, if a goblin from a goblin civ obtains the title of king over a human or dwarven civ through a coup and intrigue, will that civ then start to act more similarly to a goblin one because of the goblin king's values, which originate from a goblin civ? For example, will a human/dwarven civ that is ruled by a goblin from a goblin civ be more likely to declare wars?
Do war declarations, etc depend on the values of the actual ruler or does diplomacy right now depend on the civ's average values instead?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005547#msg8005547
The personality and values of the ruler have a strong influence on decision-making, especially in warfare. But yeah, the ruler's disposition doesn't spread outward to future rulers or flip the actual civ value meters for all time, unless value books are written and placed in libraries, and those are generally made by others.
Quote from: WordsandChaos
Actually, facetious as my earlier comment about boats was, given that wagons are considered to be creatures, is it actually possible for the procedural body-horror abominations to incorporate wagons?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005547#msg8005547
Ha ha, we really haven't gotten to anything that complicated yet. The centaur problem has not yet been attempted.
Quote from: golemgunk
Can the ghosts necromancers raise attack people like the murderous ghosts that sometimes appear in forts? Can you physically fight a ghost?
When a fort in worldgen breaches the underworld and falls to demons, do all the demons stay in their new home or is there a chance that some may choose to set out and work on their own schemes?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8006084#msg8006084
Ha ha, no, we were kind and did not give ghostly agents the instadeath powers. Because indeed, you cannot physically fight them - our intent was to make them actually different from the others. You need to use their identities to control/banish them. This will likely change as we get more stuff in later, but we wanted to toy around with it now.
Assuming they don't die in the initial breach attack, they basically become a full demon-led goblin civ w/ some extra demons, and they interact with the world outside just as other gobs do, spreading throughout.
Quote from: Inarius
Have you seen the "Dwaven Language Codifier" here ? And if yes, what are your thoughts about it ?
(http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.0)
Yeah, I've seen it! I think it's a cool project.
Since some of the analysis applies to all the languages (since they are underspecified but have a lot of similar characteristics), it's important to note that we're going to end up having to blow a lot of stuff up with procgen, if we can get it to work. Though I've been wanting to do that for years and haven't had time. And as with the myth stuff vs. the creature types etc., I really don't know precisely what 'default' is going to mean, or what sorts of vanilla language notions will remain intact. Presumably, with the editor examples etc., there might even be a more and more fixed version of things.
Quote from: MinerMan60601
Will you add Sand to the embark indicators? Dfhack has it, and you already indicate dirt and clay presence.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8006878#msg8006878
Yeah, it's reasonable, but it's better to suggest it where I won't forget, for the next time I add a bunch of indicators.
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Quote from: PlumpHelmetManNow that monasteries have been added as separate structures from temples, is it safe to assume that "monastery" has been taken out of the procgen pool for temple names?Quote from: CaptainArchmageWill we be able to designate monasteries in fortress mode?
Do you plan to change the way dead units are handled, so they don't clog up the list (there's an immigration issue there too)?
Clarification: I am referring to Nonsignificant creatures clogging up the dead units list, i.e. having to scroll past all those puppies :-(.
Eschar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008096#msg8008096
Yeah, there were a few word tweaks like that, though it's mostly the same.
I haven't gotten to fort mode yet - how many of the side systems make it in is an open question.
I don't have a specific plan for the unit list aside from combining all the notes that have come up in suggestions.
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Do existing changes also include the animated furniture? Can you as a necromancer, say, stitch new frankentrocities around a schist cabinet?
When you say you can create new monsters from amalgamating other creatures as a necromancer, can we do that in adventure mode and can we "invent" new creatures or are those just generated from the start?
I look forward to having a ball of various arms rampaging around a castle. Not so much one rampaging around my lever room.
Will the divination games be generated at the beginning of the world, or could new ones appear over time?
None of the animated items or items glued to critters yet. That'll take a body rewrite, which I've avoided thus far.
The generation of experiments does occur on the fly, but we don't have an interface for it. The game becomes slowly more interesting, but there's always more interesting stuff around the corners we don't quite reach from release to release.
The divination practices are linked to both the gods and religions, so it'd require a new religion to created, and then also a new shrine. New cities can be founded and stuff, so new shrines seem possible, but I don't recall if prophets are still actively engaged in forming religions post w.g. Seems like maybe we still need that part.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Have you considered splitting the Myth & Magic Big Wait into two Large Waits with a Systems Rewrite release in the middle? It seems to me that the systems rewrites that are going to break save compatibility really is a prerequisite for the actual Myth & Magic stuff, but from the exterior it looks like you'd have to restore the current functionality using the redesigned map (etc.) as a starting point regardless, and it doesn't seem that much of that would have to be torn up again for the magic stuff. Doing it in two steps has the advantages of play testing (i.e. bug finding), and reducing a very uncomfortably long period of no releases into two merely quite uncomfortable ones.
I know this is very much a suggestion, but I'm quite interested in hearing the reasoning behind the decision, as I'm sure you've considered the various options.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008308#msg8008308
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008344#msg8008344
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008419#msg8008419
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008440#msg8008440
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008601#msg8008601
AliceRed: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008683#msg8008683
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008800#msg8008800
Sure, we've thought about it a lot. It mostly boils down to us never having absorbed the pain of a really large refactor-only release, and not really wanting to do that. One wait with stuff seems better than a somewhat smaller (but still very long) wait with literally no stuff. One I can explain, the other I can't easily. I mean, it might not be a problem, but this is our own form of risk aversion, I guess. But I dunno, since there's a lot of moving parts.
Take, say, temporary morphing faerie-land border zones. That needs to be supported in the map rewrite if we're ever going to have them. I need a test case to test it, or to make the time feel worth it. So, faerie-land, in some simple way. All of these simple cases taken together seem to encompass what we're thinking of as the first myth/magic release. Or else there's just sort of a large swath of untested map code with no visible benefit or mode of testing.
Post by: Toady One on September 04, 2019, 09:24:35 pm
Quote from: Nopenope
Could you give more detail on the exact mechanisms behind tantrums/depression/stumbling around and the resulting insanity? (Not talking about strange moods, which are already extensively detailed) Like, what are the exact stress thresholds to reach, successful rolls to pass, relevant personality traits (beyond the already known propensities), effects of mayoral consoling, and so on?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8011121#msg8011121
Yeah, I don't think there's much point. It's broken. A giant mechanical rundown will probably take as long as just doing another pass at fixing it.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
With the myth release, will the prayer system in adventure mode be changed so that when you talk to your deity in a high-magic world, the deity might actually respond (whether by physically talking back or through some sort of "sign")?
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8011114#msg8011114
Yeah, as MrWiggles says, various such matter is on the table. Deities might be wandering around, or all the way over to some form of inscrutable half-communication.
Quote from: Kiloku
Will we ever be able to make foreign weapons such as pikes, morning stars, lashes etc. in our fortresses? Maybe a way for the group (or maybe just individual dwarves) to learn how to make them somehow?
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8011170#msg8011170
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8011540#msg8011540
'Ever' is a hard word, as usual - it certainly becomes more and more reasonable, as we now have things like residency petitions and large-sized clothing and all that, such as it is. But it's not a priority up to the magic release for sure, and beyond that anything is hard to say.
Quote from: seht
What's the current difference between world generation and world activation? As in, what stops with the former?
Will vampires and necromancers automatically be villains, or is villainy something that follows from personality traits?
There's a lot of stuff that still doesn't happen after world generation, the core being world-wide production and trade. There are tons of numerical stockpiles in worldgen moving around that hardly matter afterward, but once we get to that, it'll suddenly be very useful to have it around.
Syndrome critters that expect to be persecuted start to form plots, and due to the unnatural aging of both those statuses, this includes vampires and necromancers.
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Is it going to be possible to send out your dwarves to build tunnels and roads (off the map), or will that have to wait until after the map rework?
What were the parameters for generating the dwarven language (i.e. seed)? Sorry to ask but it would kind of help to be able to err... "fill in" certain... missing words.
Will it be possible for, say, hostile religious cults to take a hold or carry out their conspiracies within your fortress with the upcoming release?
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8012965#msg8012965
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8013252#msg8013252
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8013357#msg8013357
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8013455#msg8013455
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8013604#msg8013604
There isn't a specific plan to do explicit road building off-map before the other stuff.
The seed doesn't really matter here, since it is reset whenever I generate a few new words at a time, but just the allowable combinations of letters and so forth. The frequencies don't even matter since we choose the words by hand from among the generated words. I don't have it handy, but you can probably reconstruct the allowable combinations from the existing word set, and just work from there. It's not very complex currently.
Cults: Yeah, we haven't gotten to the fort bit, and we're going to try to incorporate what we can of all the villainous activities. The main thing to do is just to make sure we have the basic interactions and counterintelligence, but the more side systems (like the religion, merc, trade, guild, etc.) bits, the better. But time will tell, since there isn't a lot of it.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I assume when you get there, Fortress Mode will also be getting some kind of villain knowledge screen, right? Will it be possible for visitors to share their knowledge with the Fortress, somewhat like the info the Outpost liasion gives you? I assume there aren't any other detectives in the world for now, but it'd make sense to be able to get at a retired adventurer's knowledge and perhaps that of previous fortress inhabitants too?
Yeah, we're thinking it's all going to be part of the justice screen, a new counterespionage/intrigue tab or wtvr, possibly administered by the new counterintel position-holders we have from world gen, or else by the sheriff/guard captain. It'll probably be just like the adventure one, since that's shaping up well. Information from travelers is important for it, whether rumors or from actual interrogations. New more-permanent immigrants to the fort would also have data, yeah, and incorporating that seems reasonable enough, and that'll have to be meshed with the fact that they might be one of the bad actors themselves.
Quote from: Novel Scoops
As you increasingly create features that every roguelike would want (a legit combat system, say), can you open-source those particular bits of code?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8014557#msg8014557
Yeah, it's a hard thing to figure out. Open-sourcing the whole thing is not possible, for a variety of reasons. If the Steam release works out well enough that some (but not all) of those reasons go away, then releasing pieces becomes slightly more feasible. The interconnection, as Shonai_Dweller mentions, is still a problem, but it's less of an issue in some cases. We've been talking about this internally, but no plans have gelled - and it's still too early to assume we'd be able to act on them.
Quote from: acastells
We will see plots against our adventure mode party ? I mean, we are going to expose a lot of criminals so its logic they want to assasinate us.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8014565#msg8014565
Yeah, as therahedwig writes, resistance against investigation will certainly cause this to happen (and the frameworks for that are already in from all the w.g. plot stuff/vendettas.) More broadly, I'm not sure what other reactions there will be yet.
Quote from: Jack_Caboose
Since a map rewrite is coming as part of the Big Wait, are there any plans to make sites less-hardcoded as a part of it? For example, having player-defined sites and buildings as options for civs other than hillocks, fortresses, etc., or the option to generate player-defined buildings similar to megabeast shrines that can have custom loot or creatures?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8015356#msg8015356
We're going to try to line up the technical side of it, yeah, and that'll probably involve some case studies. I'm not sure how far that means we'll have to go at first -- rewrites for the game tend to go deep as we yank the mechanics out of the ground and they just keep connecting up to stuff that also has to go. We've been lucky that stuff like forgotten beasts as played so nicely between the hardcoding and the raws, for instance, but the tough part of hooking them up hasn't happened yet. We'll be seeing some of the hard work on the sites, I suspect, and it's unclear precisely where it'll end up. My eventual, difficult goal is to get all the procgen out into text or scripts, somehow.
Quote from: Su
Meph's commercial tileset seems to be coloured by hand rather than using the classic tileset's automatic recoloring.
i'm hoping to create an extension of the classic tileset using unicode symbols, but i don't have the time or energy to make copies for all the different colourations of each symbol, so: will the new tileset features be compatible with the current release's automatic tile recoloring?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8015588#msg8015588
Su (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8015772#msg8015772
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8015886#msg8015886
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016022#msg8016022
Yeah, it's too early to make promises on this, but the plan is to not lose any existing functionality, just allow the various cool new bits. All the same, if the recolor were to go, an auto-recolor utility that just made the compatible tileset for you from your grayscale one would probably crop up before long.
Quote from: Phenoix12
1. Will we be able to set plots in motion during fortress mode. Such as appointing a dwarf to something akin to a spymaster and having him go out on mission to create plots for us. Like assassinating the leader of the elves. Or tricking the humans into going to war with the elves.
2. Will we eventually see even more complex and crazy plots and schemes. Love to see some xanatos gambits show up in some grand evil plots someday. Or even plots learning of and taking advantage of other people's plots for their own gains. (Like some 'hero' finds out about a plot to kidnap the son of the king but instead of stopping it he secretly sets his own plot into motion to allow the kidnapping to succeed only so he may later go 'rescue' the prince and return him to gain respect and political favors.)
3. At this time the only reason anyone wants to learn a secret is because they want to be immortal. Will other the other reasons to learn secrets eventually get their day in the sun; like 'wanting to rule the world', etc.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016210#msg8016210
1. PatrikLundell is correct about this - we'd like to implement as many of the plots as we can for players to do in both modes, but there will likely be certain holes just based on random reasons or convenience that we'll have to loop back to later
2. We hope so. It'll have to wait of course, but we're closer now than we were before.
3. Part of the thing currently is that the game doesn't parse secrets very well or understand too much about what they are for. So if they have like a combat ability increasing power, it just wouldn't be able to put two and two together on that. The current new reasoning is in the desire to be immortal; that happens for a variety of reasons now. This will likely all be blown open once there is more to learn in vanilla DF.
Quote from: Beag
1. Will there be a chance that new races created by demon or necromancer could have inborn special/magical abilities?
2. Will more legit organizations such as site governments, merchant companies and mercenary companies also appear in the organization tab in the intrigue menu?
3. If the player joined a group present in the organization menu would they appear on the graphic?(Currently it is possible to join bandits and criminal groups at least at an entry level).
4. Will special buildings like guild halls also appear in generated human settlements?
5. Will any of the new special buildings appear in elven settlements?(Unlikely I know but I thought I'd ask.)
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016473#msg8016473
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016497#msg8016497
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016568#msg8016568
1. Yeah, given the undead lt powers, this is sitting right there on the table. I actually don't remember if I did some minor ones or not, and it strikes me as more fun not to check.
2. They already have the entity tab, but we are considering an additional information bit there as it relates to access, to the extent that transfers over cleanly from worldgen. It's much harder to enforce access restrictions in adv mode, as the adv and the target are just wandering around, and we don't have a good guard system yet.
3. I think so, yeah. I don't think there's a check that keeps them off.
4. Yeah, those are done. They aren't special, but they do have little guild-specific masterpieces sitting around and stuff. Can still use a lot of work, but it isn't a priority now.
5. They have a 'tree' for them, but it's as half-assed as usual.
Quote from: Bydth
With the Improved Sieges subfeature, will the skills, attributes, and facets of histfig siege leaders affect the behavior of the invading forces?
Elaboration:
So a leader with high Military_tactics will steer their troops around and under marksdwarf fortifications, coordinate and synchronize assaults, manage fighting retreats, and judiciously use sapping/building, while a leader with poor Organizer will have their forces show up piecemeal lacking provisions and equipment? Perhaps a general with high leader and social skills sends their soldiers into battle fed and motivated, rallies panicking squads, and marches troops though narrow passages in formation, while a incompetent moron with high stress vulnerability will delay in extricating their troops from the ballista battery, call a retreat that collapses into a rout, lose half the army to axedwarves while re-enacting Three Stooges routines in the stairwell, take for granted the main gate remaining open, and die alongside the last of their soldiers in the trade depot as the siege engines finally arrive? Have a system where geniuses can make huge mistakes (Napoleonic invasion of Russia) and mediocre generals can have stunning successes? (Henry V of Agincourt fame)
We're not sure exactly what's going to happen there, but since those skills now exist, and are used off-map, it would be nice to get some use out of them in local play. There just isn't enough for them to work with currently. If the added tactics give us enough wiggle room, we'll finally be able to consider it. Making believable AIs of different skill levels requires a lot of effort, and we don't even have the building blocks yet.
Quote from: alan8325
Couple questions on the map rewrite:
1. Will we get multi-level furniture? For example, grand doors that are 2+ z-levels high and multi-block statues, similar to trees?
2. Willbe changed a proper plane of existence?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017268#msg8017268
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017271#msg8017271
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017284#msg8017284
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017288#msg8017288
1. We have a long list of things we'd like to support, and this is our next big (and perhaps final?) crack at a real good map rewrite, so we'll likely try, or at least see what we really need out of furniture in the long-term (as opposed to just using multiple map tiles and the 'moveable fortress' model.)
2. Depending on the cosmology, it would be a different plane of existence (which would match how it currently works with the change to the sky description in adv mode when you are down there.) There are plenty of examples of those types of places which are just down below though, so I imagine both will be supported.
Quote from: Renarin21
Will there be "semi-public" organizations? For example, a kingdoms counter-espionage department, which might be publicly known to exist, and might have some members who exist to communicate with people not in the organization, but many of the members are unknown to people not in the organization.
That sort of happens, but it isn't precisely as formal as it would need to be to count as a 'yes', maybe. For instance, there might be a 'keeper of seals' in a human civ, who is publicly know to be a kind of spymaster/counterespionage official, and then they have agents that operate under identities, and also some schemes in place involving less formally linked characters, and also the power through the guards to arrest people and interrogate them. But there's something about the (lack of) coherence and certain naming that makes it not feel quite exactly like the 'secret police' or whatever other analog, though it might be a bit closer by the time we're through with the work on the in-play stuff.
Quote from: Thundercraft
Now that we have the ability to retire and unretire a Fortress, will we eventually gain the ability to pick and choose a selection of dwarves, animals, resources, weapons and tools from our current fort in order to chain-embark to go found a new site somewhere else? Will we eventually be able to bring certain animals on embark from our breeding programs that have been painstakingly bred to be, e.g., larger or taller than average or with certain color traits? Could we, one day, even embark with an artifact from our old fort?
Also, in fort mode, will players eventually be able to trade artifacts, at least between sites within our fort's civilization?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017742#msg8017742
Thundercraft (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8018876#msg8018876
With the 'c' screen stuff, we've certainly taken slow steps toward various interactions with the world, and this release is continuing to add to that. As for those specific examples, I have no idea.
We didn't get to various artifact transfer stuff that's been in the notes for a long while. Sometime this may happen, but I have no idea when.
Quote from: AliceRed
You mentioned one of the dice effects is a syndrome which turns your adventurer into an animal. Could this lead to the ability to make creatures which only reproduce by turning other creatures into more of them in gameplay? Curious since aside from Vamps and Werebeasts I believe that only exists in worldgen right now, and is a very common fantasy trope.
These new horrific necromancer/demon creations, are they likely to be one of the things modified by the tone meter you mentioned for future, myth and magic versions of the game? If so, I'm increasingly excited to see what that meter is like turned all the way up in a few years.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8018316#msg8018316
Night trolls also basically work that way, though it doesn't use an interaction effect. But yeah, in some technical sense, you could already do this in the currently released version probably, but the game still doesn't understand how to make it consistent and happen throughout, and to abstract populations.
Tone slider: Yeah, exactly - the basic experiments would definitely be in the 3-4 range, on a 5 point scale, maybe even a 5 if they are described in detail. Hopefully we'll see some good progress with this after all these years, with the myth/magic stuff on the horizon.
Quote from: voliol
Are vampire/werebeast turning (not by curse) and night troll kidnappings considered "villain plans" that will be properly implemented by these beastly villains post-worldgen? Or have you advanced past the stage of adding villain plans, and they were not added when you did?
Turning agreements are part of the new intrigue relationships (part of the overall additions, but not exactly a plan/scheme specificially right now), and troll kidnappings are still over in pure beast AI behavior. So the former is more likely to make it into the play modes, though the post w.g. troll stuff is also one of those things we'd been kicking around since we already the pieces in place.
Quote from: Doorkeeper
I hope the FDG conference went well Toady. Do you know if there will be a public archive of your keynote presentation?
We tried to have somebody record it last second, but the lighting and audio just didn't work out. I'll probably put up my slides in the coming days.
Quote from: falcc
As of right now, rumors get cluttered up with "so and so was attacked by small animals" and the histories are full of "so and so attacked so and so, though the latter escaped unharmed." In the coming releases, will dishonest assassins be bribeable, and will they return with the rumor that they attacked their target, but they got away? I know lies would be extra code, but these rumors are already spreadable.
Also,
To what extent are the endless conversation topics about being attacked by animals that immediately run away used? Will telling these stories to the elves make them mad, under the hood somewhere? Do companions use these attacks to determine if you're taking them towards glory or death effectively enough? And are any filters planned before the big wait?
I haven't done anything with bribing assassins. It is interesting, though, yeah, about which sorts of lies would have a larger memory footprint than others, and which lies can be easily contradicted or have many, many forms overlapping. I agree an isolated fake incident lie would be easier to control if it didn't happen too often, though even in this case, we'd need to handle you asking the not-actually-attacked target about it (who would know that the attack did not happen), and then having two versions of events stacked.
Doesn't come up, I think. And I don't have plans for it in the near-term, though things that are strange or confusing are all on the (very large) table for the Steam release, in terms of usability. The overall issue is just that combat is treated as an 'incident', and sometimes that matters, even with small wilderness critters, because they in fact might injure you etc., and so the structure needs to be in place, for a nebulous amount of time. Just need more work sealing them off and deleting them if they come to nothing.
Quote from: Hapchazzard
With all these new fancy intrigue mechanics, do you reckon that adding in proper secret societies won't take too much effort down the road? As I see it now, the main thing that's missing is having them have motivations beyond generically amassing power, and letting them form a more formal hierarchy as a direct evolution of the current agent networks and such.
Yeah, there are lot of things which'll be easier now. This all branches out into diplomacy and sub-groups and so forth, and we'll just continue adding stuff bit by bit.
Quote from: Severedicks
Will warehouses/trading companies, mercenary companies, guilds and new religions will be relevant in fortress mode (in the form of visitors, religions getting founded at your fort, merchants establishing trading posts, building shrines, etc.)?
Are bandit forts, monasteries or mercenary headquarters considered sites that you can raid, loot, raze or conquer?
Why were castles pulled out?
Can the fortress player make alliances with other civs?
Can intelligent undead arrive as migrants or visitors?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8019444#msg8019444
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8019446#msg8019446
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8019589#msg8019589
I haven't gotten to fort mode yet, and we'd like to bring in as much of the non-villain side material we added to world gen over to fort mode. But we won't get to it all. So we'll see! This holds for alliances as well as the new entity types/stuff. But yeah, those sites are all targetable.
Castles removed, way back when? I don't recall if it was when I added the land-holder position stuff? It was some minor complication. Then, after all the changes over the years, that wasn't even an issue when I came back to it. The code was already in place or totally easy to change, and I didn't even notice what was holding it back before. This actually happens quite a bit. Frameworks just get more robust as they are used (is the hope.)
If the intelligent undead is free of its necro entity, then yeah, I don't think there is anything stopping them. There is a sense that certain strange things will happen, and I guess we'll deal with them as they arise. It seems fun, but there'll probably need to be a dampenening of certain ridiculousnesses.
Quote from: Nibblewerfer
How do adventurers turned into animals by bad dice rolls not starve to death?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8019988#msg8019988
JesterHell696: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020008#msg8020008
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ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020032#msg8020032
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PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020054#msg8020054
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020058#msg8020058
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Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020408#msg8020408
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020440#msg8020440
Ah, I put in NO_AGING since there might have been an issue from short lifespans, but yeah, I guess you should be able to root around in the garbage more properly or else not have to worry about it.
Quote from: Real_bang
Would cursed adventurers after turning into an animal and back heal their lost limbs like the werecreatures?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020054#msg8020054
Ha ha, in this case I think PatrikLundell is giving us too much credit. It's hard to map one-to-one wound transfers, or we would have done it way back in the werecreature case. We did ponder what this would do to the frequency of supplicants, the 'worth it' healing of doing the transform, but didn't actually tackle the matter. Just another note which may or may not be acted upon. As with many things in hindsight, I think at least saving the wounds for the transfer back was actually not such a hard problem, so that could still happen, and would likely affect werewolves as well when it's done. If it gets done.
Post by: voliol on September 05, 2019, 02:37:09 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 05, 2019, 10:24:52 am
Post by: Button on September 05, 2019, 01:56:57 pm
I do not recall how poltergeists currently work when picking up items in fort mode... do they items go through walls or does it change their path model? Don't remember.
As of 0.34.something when I last had a ghost carrying stuff, they had to use proper pathing when carrying items.
Speaking of which, the context for that was a ghost who was continuing to perform his Animal Trainer duties from beyond the grave: he was carrying meat to tame a caged creature. Do you intend to preserve/formalize the previously-unintentional Helpful Ghost behaviors in fort mode, or are those on the chopping block?
Post by: AliceRed on September 05, 2019, 09:42:07 pm
I know this is pretty far into the mythical and magical future, but you bringing up soul mechanics just filled me with such curiosity I have to ask, even if the answers will probably be pretty lightweight. It's pretty cool just to see your vague plans for the future either way.
Do you think certain generated Underworlds will be filled with the ghost/spirits/bodies of those who end up dying and going there, as some Mythgen slides mentioned certain Dwarves going to the "wild world" upon death with the same text color as other similarly ominous sounding places in other slides?
For that matter, what do you hope the variance of generated realms to be? Could there be realms which are essentially massive buildings when it comes to environment, ala some interpretations of Hell? Likewise, could some unpleasant dimensions like the Underworld be focused on darkness or cold rather than heat and flame like the current underworld in your vision? I'm curious, since across fantasy and especially real world mythology, evil planes can be so unique and varied - even different interpretations of Christian cosmology say Hell is hot, dark, bloody, etc.
Since reincarnation also seems to be a thing in Mythgen, would a sort of spiritual "history" be possible? Like where a Dorf or other entity's past lives are chronicled historically, I think it could be pretty neat. Possibly something that could be tied into divining-type magic whenever worlds generate with it.
Finally, will high-fantasy worlds where races are unlucky enough to be generated with mortal souls have a greater desire for immortality among individuals? Or at least more of their personalities generating with a fear of death?
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on September 06, 2019, 12:23:37 am
Will the sphere of a secret affect the type of area it spreads, if it spreads influence over the surroundings at all? Like how necromancer towers spread reanimating (I would assume) evil areas, would a secret with the blight sphere kill vegetation, and deformity evil creature populations like the described freed demon spheres? Or is the reanimating region spread part of some specific feature of the necromancer code itself?
Post by: voliol on September 06, 2019, 12:59:52 am
Thanks for the answers Toady! Got a bit of a question that refers back to a devlog, but one I felt needed asking after remembering the details.
Will the sphere of a secret affect the type of area it spreads, if it spreads influence over the surroundings at all? Like how necromancer towers spread reanimating (I would assume) evil areas, would a secret with the blight sphere kill vegetation, and deformity evil creature populations like the described freed demon spheres? Or is the reanimating region spread part of some specific feature of the necromancer code itself?
The devlog for anyone wondering:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 06, 2019, 03:32:05 am
I do not recall how poltergeists currently work when picking up items in fort mode... do they items go through walls or does it change their path model? Don't remember.
As of 0.34.something when I last had a ghost carrying stuff, they had to use proper pathing when carrying items.
Speaking of which, the context for that was a ghost who was continuing to perform his Animal Trainer duties from beyond the grave: he was carrying meat to tame a caged creature. Do you intend to preserve/formalize the previously-unintentional Helpful Ghost behaviors in fort mode, or are those on the chopping block?
I personally think ghosts in general will recieve a rework to be properly manifested by the time of the magic arc given the current development goal objectives of having planes where the dead amass and obviously need to appear in some tangible form along with other creatures, (to mourn or run around with glee in their afterlife) and Toady's recent reply about banishing them using identities for the limited scope of the interaction in the mortal world may just mean they are interesting adventure mode quest targets right now.
Quote from: ToadyOne
Ha ha, no, we were kind and did not give ghostly agents the instadeath powers. Because indeed, you cannot physically fight them - our intent was to make them actually different from the others. You need to use their identities to control/banish them. This will likely change as we get more stuff in later, but we wanted to toy around with it now.
Ghostly raised intelligent undead not-withstanding, i assume you can bash those since they are not the same kind of implied actors as singular agent ghosts from what i've read, unless its just part of the game to banish your enemy ghost siege leader by finding his name on the slab list and putting it down before they float through your defenses and murders all of your very un-magic/un-artifact weapon wielding dwarves.
Ghosts are usually satisfied by making a slab for them, will we have flexibile choices for how to handle semi-scripted events like "please banish the ghost from my house" to do what is expected normally, or twist the quest to ask and fufill what the ghost wants in order to let them rest for good?
Post by: Doorkeeper on September 07, 2019, 10:53:50 am
Quote from: DoorkeeperI hope the FDG conference went well Toady. Do you know if there will be a public archive of your keynote presentation?
We tried to have somebody record it last second, but the lighting and audio just didn't work out. I'll probably put up my slides in the coming days.
Thanks Toady, the slides would be appreciated.
Post by: MadMonkey on September 09, 2019, 10:17:41 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 10, 2019, 02:44:08 am
When there are more types of secrets and magic, will there be more ways to gain magic abilties or will it mostly come from reading slabs/books?The Myth&Magic arc should introduce new ways to gain magic abilities. At the least divine/infernal connections, but probably a whole set of new ways eventually (research, study as an apprentice, innate ability, sphere influence/effect [with some magic dependent on spheres, so if the sphere goes, so does the magic, even if the learning process is not a sphere effect itself {I think the latest Threetoe story has magic that disappeared when the spheres were rearranged in the past}]). Introducing more avenues before that arc would probably be a waste of efforts, as it would probably have to be re-implemented to fit in with Myth&Magic.
Post by: AliceRed on September 10, 2019, 12:59:03 pm
Post by: MadMonkey on September 10, 2019, 01:46:18 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 10, 2019, 01:59:15 pm
I knew it wouldn't be until mythgen. Maybe I should rephrase my question to what are some of the possible secret gaining avenues.
Toady won't reveal his hand that easily, it could be any number of things depending on how gods in the Myth and Magic Arc bestow their abilities or even manifest in the finished product. Also retrospective questions probably won't be heard unless they too are lime but its not too much of a deviation of the first question's answer & reply as is.
From our information sources for Toady's perception, the creation myths, sliders, and magical items and artifacts will have some weight on whether you can practice backyard necromancery in one world using magic accessible to laymen and everyone else, or whether magic is very rare and closeted onto tablets as it is currently. Gaining more secrets? I wouldnt know any further than what someone could suggest and what Toady's conversely suggested like magical bloodlines, books, word of mouth? spontaneous blessings? its really open to debate.
Post by: Immortal-D on September 11, 2019, 05:04:29 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 11, 2019, 05:58:28 pm
Can you tell us any details about what the Steam tutorial will look like? Are you going to cover specific key/menu navigation (build vs. designate), or more general concepts like 'how to farm'?I imagine planning hasn't gotten much further than this interview about it.
https://www.pcgamer.com/tutorials-and-mouse-support-could-make-dwarf-fortress-on-steam-vastly-easier-to-play/
Post by: squamous on September 14, 2019, 06:05:59 am
1. How will food management work for adventuring parties. If we're able to control them all, will we need to take their food and water supplies into account? Will they get food by themselves or will we need to manually control them to feed them/put food in their inventory?
2. Will it be possible for adventurers or armies to travel across mountains in the near future? Right now they can isolate huge portions of the map from each other, so I was wondering how it would affect things like criminal conspiracies and new traveling agents like exiled religions/player-sent minions. Will they be able to move across the world or just their local region?
3. What exactly are the things that influence whether an animal man population will join a civilization? So far I am fairly sure a high respect for nature influences it but everything else is guesswork.
4. You mentioned new interactions like creating fog. Will there be any interactions that allow you to heal missing limbs besides the current werebeast method?
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 14, 2019, 07:25:14 am
Will it be possible for adventurers or armies to travel across mountains in the near future? Right now they can isolate huge portions of the map from each other, so I was wondering how it would affect things like criminal conspiracies and new traveling agents like exiled religions/player-sent minions. Will they be able to move across the world or just their local region?
I have no idea how palatable the solutions could be but you could fly (innately, or with a mount, to which flying raids might be a big deal versus players who isolate themselves on islands but still draw the jealous eyes of the world.) or you could go through the mountain in a subterreanean way.
Depends how Toady will seek to address this but the terrain re-write might make the pathing more preferable and completely suspend mountains as a no go zone. Alternatively people might be able to start fortresses below ground in the future where being inside the depths of a mountain could be preferable (maybe not in the mouth or lava of a volcano by accident)
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 14, 2019, 08:03:20 am
Post by: Doomblade187 on September 17, 2019, 10:41:53 am
It would be nice to have nurseries just not for war babies but children in general. Combine with burrows to make "safety zones" for them to retreat to during battles or sieges a la Helm's Deep.
But yes as iconic as the Battle-Bred Babies of DF is I really think the game could use a nursery function. Both for dwarves to temporarily leave their babies at (in case of violence) and for nobles to be assholes about child rearing with (lol take care of my own offspring? You must be joking).
Then again I would also give children an inclination to want to hang around their parents and make them able to learn their parents' professional skills by proxy from being present while the parent work. Maybe have them limited to some low skill level but then make their parents work a little faster by having them around (simulating them helping in the workshop).
Post by: iceball3 on September 17, 2019, 07:36:26 pm
I remember asking a bit on this sometime last year or so, the notion was that mountains being no-go zones are kind of a placeholder at the moment, as you'll notice that mountain biomes often have quite a lot of foraging options, and are nowhere near insurmountable as the terrain shifts only very mildly, and the biomes don't span far enough distances in the current iteration to make even adventure-mode scale travel unable to sustain off their own pack-food.Will it be possible for adventurers or armies to travel across mountains in the near future? Right now they can isolate huge portions of the map from each other, so I was wondering how it would affect things like criminal conspiracies and new traveling agents like exiled religions/player-sent minions. Will they be able to move across the world or just their local region?
I have no idea how palatable the solutions could be but you could fly (innately, or with a mount, to which flying raids might be a big deal versus players who isolate themselves on islands but still draw the jealous eyes of the world.) or you could go through the mountain in a subterreanean way.
Depends how Toady will seek to address this but the terrain re-write might make the pathing more preferable and completely suspend mountains as a no go zone. Alternatively people might be able to start fortresses below ground in the future where being inside the depths of a mountain could be preferable (maybe not in the mouth or lava of a volcano by accident)
Post by: voliol on September 18, 2019, 02:21:55 am
Non-player adventurers in adventurer mode easily scale mountains though. I had this problem the other day when I was stalking some performers traveling to the big city, and I had to exit fast travel as soon as the mountains appeared in our path, not to lose them by going around.I remember asking a bit on this sometime last year or so, the notion was that mountains being no-go zones are kind of a placeholder at the moment, as you'll notice that mountain biomes often have quite a lot of foraging options, and are nowhere near insurmountable as the terrain shifts only very mildly, and the biomes don't span far enough distances in the current iteration to make even adventure-mode scale travel unable to sustain off their own pack-food.Will it be possible for adventurers or armies to travel across mountains in the near future? Right now they can isolate huge portions of the map from each other, so I was wondering how it would affect things like criminal conspiracies and new traveling agents like exiled religions/player-sent minions. Will they be able to move across the world or just their local region?
I have no idea how palatable the solutions could be but you could fly (innately, or with a mount, to which flying raids might be a big deal versus players who isolate themselves on islands but still draw the jealous eyes of the world.) or you could go through the mountain in a subterreanean way.
Depends how Toady will seek to address this but the terrain re-write might make the pathing more preferable and completely suspend mountains as a no go zone. Alternatively people might be able to start fortresses below ground in the future where being inside the depths of a mountain could be preferable (maybe not in the mouth or lava of a volcano by accident)
Post by: DG on September 19, 2019, 09:05:08 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 19, 2019, 10:15:59 am
Is there any plans to implement dwarven nurseries, to potentially provide "proper" childcare for dwarves, and potentially lower the number of warbabies? Related quote and suggestion from Scriver and others below.It would be nice to have nurseries just not for war babies but children in general. Combine with burrows to make "safety zones" for them to retreat to during battles or sieges a la Helm's Deep.
But yes as iconic as the Battle-Bred Babies of DF is I really think the game could use a nursery function. Both for dwarves to temporarily leave their babies at (in case of violence) and for nobles to be assholes about child rearing with (lol take care of my own offspring? You must be joking).
Then again I would also give children an inclination to want to hang around their parents and make them able to learn their parents' professional skills by proxy from being present while the parent work. Maybe have them limited to some low skill level but then make their parents work a little faster by having them around (simulating them helping in the workshop).
I think there's a public mandate for it given how often it turns up in suggestions, but not a declared devlog one given the direction towards the big goals in the Magic Arc and how much of a detour it could end up being. I personally would support the 'idea' of a player set safe area but i think given there's been no hint of a devlog for a while on the matter it would be best consigned to the suggestions forum for elaborations.
Committing to doing nursuries/etc. might compel players to ask for more depth regarding children in their interim period of obscure uselessness before adulthood, like academic public/private tutoring to broaden minds etc or to touch on the subjects of childhood and adolescence more, but this is a pitfall i feel that Toady could get well sunk into given the normal amout of detail with everything connected that DF strives to achieve.
- Also the horrible daycare experiment implications of player's Spartan like approaches to childcare, in the hopes animals or child snatchers would take away nursery babies stationed outside, babies aren't even born with knives to defend themselves anymore :P
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 19, 2019, 03:53:22 pm
How far away is the villain system from producing a stereotypical fantasy thieves guild? In my mind it can be boiled down to a criminal organisation that might not actively invent or undertake plots but who's permission (and a tax) is required before professional criminal activity is undertaken in their sphere of influence. It may or may not have some sort of tacit agreement with a legitimate government. Is a thieves guild something you'd like to see come up in certain gens?Rather far, I would guess. You'd really need an economy for a thieves guild to have a place (although it obviously doesn't stop companies, embezzling, and other economic activities to happen in an economic vacuum with the Villains arc). It also would benefit from a foundation of Law & Customs that might give them a place in the society and some explanation for why they exists.
Post by: feelotraveller on September 20, 2019, 12:11:40 am
Is there any plans to implement dwarven nurseries, to potentially provide "proper" childcare for dwarves, and potentially lower the number of warbabies? Related quote and suggestion from Scriver and others below.It would be nice to have nurseries just not for war babies but children in general. Combine with burrows to make "safety zones" for them to retreat to during battles or sieges a la Helm's Deep.
But yes as iconic as the Battle-Bred Babies of DF is I really think the game could use a nursery function. Both for dwarves to temporarily leave their babies at (in case of violence) and for nobles to be assholes about child rearing with (lol take care of my own offspring? You must be joking).
Then again I would also give children an inclination to want to hang around their parents and make them able to learn their parents' professional skills by proxy from being present while the parent work. Maybe have them limited to some low skill level but then make their parents work a little faster by having them around (simulating them helping in the workshop).
I think there's a public mandate for it given how often it turns up in suggestions, but not a declared devlog one given the direction towards the big goals in the Magic Arc and how much of a detour it could end up being. I personally would support the 'idea' of a player set safe area but i think given there's been no hint of a devlog for a while on the matter it would be best consigned to the suggestions forum for elaborations.
Committing to doing nursuries/etc. might compel players to ask for more depth regarding children in their interim period of obscure uselessness before adulthood, like academic public/private tutoring to broaden minds etc or to touch on the subjects of childhood and adolescence more, but this is a pitfall i feel that Toady could get well sunk into given the normal amout of detail with everything connected that DF strives to achieve.Rushing to add everything now might leave post-magic arc when everything is in place to be built upon rather than pulled out quickly and started again
- Also the horrible daycare experiment implications of player's Spartan like approaches to childcare, in the hopes animals or child snatchers would take away nursery babies stationed outside, babies aren't even born with knives to defend themselves anymore :P
Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely). Doesn't stop the player making their own design...
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 20, 2019, 12:36:06 am
Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely). Doesn't stop the player making their own design..
The practices of tutoring the nobility by assigning a guardian to be mentored by as well as the obvious pressure to continue the family trade with passed on traditions and methods are common for the time period even before any kind of formal organizational education (and indeed even into times of antiquity with a lot more philosophic studentship/societies for young adults) though it might be a bit obtuse to include a entire breadth for a university (though they definitely did exist for a select few as soon as 1088 in Bologna, Italy a full 356 years old by 1444 as the earliest European university.)
Just as you say rightly, for the period sitting down both male and female students in a formal classroom irregardless of social status for common public education is far fetched, but in the same breadth you can say that dwarves are ahistorical visionaries with their ideas that just live by circumstance and setting in the present period they reside.
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 20, 2019, 12:46:25 am
How far away is the villain system from producing a stereotypical fantasy thieves guild? In my mind it can be boiled down to a criminal organisation that might not actively invent or undertake plots but who's permission (and a tax) is required before professional criminal activity is undertaken in their sphere of influence. It may or may not have some sort of tacit agreement with a legitimate government. Is a thieves guild something you'd like to see come up in certain gens?Rather far, I would guess. You'd really need an economy for a thieves guild to have a place (although it obviously doesn't stop companies, embezzling, and other economic activities to happen in an economic vacuum with the Villains arc). It also would benefit from a foundation of Law & Customs that might give them a place in the society and some explanation for why they exists.
Steam Announcement on the DF steam page offers some more context (https://steamcommunity.com/games/975370/announcements/detail/1597012808112280309).
Quote
We've been cleaning up the villainous network issues I mentioned in my last news post. In order to connect the networks more fully, we mostly focused on criminal organizations operating in cities. They can now compete with each other, subordinate each other and skim off of each other's profits, and fully fuse into single larger gangs. They can also establish new branches in other cities to give the networks some additional geographic spread, which should help to make investigations more interesting.
With those new additions as a backdrop, we allowed position-holding villains (who might be, for instance, nobles, priests, or bookkeepers) to contact the criminal organizations through intermediaries. Once in contact, they can contract out their assassination, sabotage, theft and kidnapping plots. This creates additional links for our investigations, and also opens up opportunities for the criminal leaders to exploit the link the other way, through blackmail and so forth.
It would really mean beyond this what you convey 'gangs' to mean by professionalism, since they still would do the type of things your described 'theives guild' would do while not needing to flaunt around additional systems like mercenaries (that we're aware of). Paying for their own long conspicious cloaks and poisoned daggers with little embezzled accounts amongst those kinds of things.
Post by: feelotraveller on September 20, 2019, 10:33:02 pm
Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely). Doesn't stop the player making their own design..
The practices of tutoring the nobility by assigning a guardian to be mentored by as well as the obvious pressure to continue the family trade with passed on traditions and methods are common for the time period even before any kind of formal organizational education (and indeed even into times of antiquity with a lot more philosophic studentship/societies for young adults) though it might be a bit obtuse to include a entire breadth for a university (though they definitely did exist for a select few as soon as 1088 in Bologna, Italy a full 356 years old by 1444 as the earliest European university.)
Just as you say rightly, for the period sitting down both male and female students in a formal classroom irregardless of social status for common public education is far fetched, but in the same breadth you can say that dwarves are ahistorical visionaries with their ideas that just live by circumstance and setting in the present period they reside.
Oh, I'm not against an overhaul of child activities to allow greater participation in 'useful' activities, but only the isolated walling up vis-a-vis command and control. (As an aside I regard Paris as the earliest european university - but we already have a rough equivalent for this with scholars + Libraries.) 8)
[We're well off into suggestion territory here, and for distant development at that, ... but anyways: my vision would be of a 'child activities' menu as an equivalent to the labours for adults except it would only have a few broad categories such as - help with harvest, help with hauling, provide food/water, help parents, help fortress. Unlike labours the associated activities would only trigger occasionally, maybe 10% of the time on average and would be influenced by traits and personalities. No doubt this is a double attempt on my part to capture both something of the chaos and freedom attributed to the modern child and a modeling of the greater degree of participation in public life (albeit in a minor role) that took place during previous eras.]
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 26, 2019, 04:08:46 am
(I know Adventurer has it's "better than fortress mode" fans, and I'm one of them sometimes, this is just about Toady's opinion, based on his past comments on the state of Adventurer compared with Fortress).
Post by: bieux on September 28, 2019, 01:37:59 pm
1. Will seeking social interaction only extend to plotting dwarves or are other dwarves going to gain this ability in this update?
2. Is plotting/interacting socially going to take only dwarven idle-time or is work-time going to be affected by this?
3. Will visitors be included in plotting? (i.e. a migrant arived on the fort, and after a year or so a vilanous traveler that happened to know them came to ask for a favor and leave, or vice versa; Or even someone up the chain maintaning contact with an agent in your fort for interciv plots)
4. Would dwarves that overheard plotting be able to catch part of the plan and feed that information to the justice screen, or will they simply accuse dorfs of plotting?
5. How adversarial can dorfs get now? If that migrant was the spy all along, when they become incriminated, will they see no reason to keep their act and start fighting everyone?
Edit: grammar
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 28, 2019, 02:10:25 pm
5. How adversarial can dorfs get now? If that migrant was the spy all along, when they become incriminated, will they see no reason to keep their act and start fighting everyone?
Just a minor correction w/boldface.
Post by: Beag on September 28, 2019, 02:50:10 pm
2. Will new races created by necromancers have some abilities of the creatures they were created from? Some examples would be a carnivorous diet or the ability to fly.
3. What do necromancers/demons do with new races they create assuming they don't escape? I'd assume they wouldn't just kill a creation they spent so long working on.
4. If a player playing as a race created by a necromancer/demon visit's that necromancer/demon's base would they still be hostile to that player even though the player is of a race they created?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 28, 2019, 04:15:24 pm
1. Can necromancers/demons utilize mega beasts in their experimentation? For example making a new creature using parts of a dragon and a human?
2. Will new races created by necromancers have some abilities of the creatures they were created from? Some examples would be a carnivorous diet or the ability to fly.
3. What do necromancers/demons do with new races they create assuming they don't escape? I'd assume they wouldn't just kill a creation they spent so long working on.
4. If a player playing as a race created by a necromancer/demon visit's that necromancer/demon's base would they still be hostile to that player even though the player is of a race they created?
1. Toady's implied that necros/demons are limited to experimenting on the populace of settlements they've captured (as well as their pets/livestock). So unless a powerful necromancer finds a town that has stray megabeasts just roaming around, I kind of doubt it.
4. I assume they'd still be hostile, since it's currently entity membership that's the defining factor in your interactions with NPCs rather than race.
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 29, 2019, 01:03:17 am
1. Can necromancers/demons utilize mega beasts in their experimentation? For example making a new creature using parts of a dragon and a human?
2. Will new races created by necromancers have some abilities of the creatures they were created from? Some examples would be a carnivorous diet or the ability to fly.
3. What do necromancers/demons do with new races they create assuming they don't escape? I'd assume they wouldn't just kill a creation they spent so long working on.
4. If a player playing as a race created by a necromancer/demon visit's that necromancer/demon's base would they still be hostile to that player even though the player is of a race they created?
2. They likely won't have tag mixing that complex because of possible conflicts, for the same reason it's not 100% going to be quite literal mixing of bodies due to limitations without a re-write on how bodies work. They follow archetypes body formats instead.
3. Add them to the population to staff their armies and work presumably, failed experiments are thrown out into the wild, Toady's own comments are for a Uruk-Hai like creation, no special additional purpose though necromancers have the additional facet of having their experiments reanimate.
Quite a few answers are already found on the development log (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) and Toady starts discussing it on the first of August.
Post by: some_stranger on September 29, 2019, 07:18:41 am
Post by: iceball3 on September 29, 2019, 07:33:22 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 29, 2019, 08:59:07 am
1. Will there be any form of beta access keys for the steam release?As far as I understand it beta testing for the Premium release is intended to be performed as a closed testing organized by Kitfox. However, it's unclear (at least to me) whether that procedure will be followed for every update (which would alter the way things have been done up until now significantly), or whether there will be a beta branch for early adopters of new versions before they stabilize and can be brought over to the general branch. Another unclear issue is how to handle existing fortresses with new releases, as auto updates might not be the best choice for everyone.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 29, 2019, 03:15:29 pm
Post by: Buttery_Mess on September 29, 2019, 03:49:39 pm
Post by: Toady One on September 30, 2019, 11:57:45 pm
Quote
Quote from: ButtonSpeaking of which, the context for that was a ghost who was continuing to perform his Animal Trainer duties from beyond the grave: he was carrying meat to tame a caged creature. Do you intend to preserve/formalize the previously-unintentional Helpful Ghost behaviors in fort mode, or are those on the chopping block?Quote from: FantasticDorfGhosts are usually satisfied by making a slab for them, will we have flexibile choices for how to handle semi-scripted events like "please banish the ghost from my house" to do what is expected normally, or twist the quest to ask and fufill what the ghost wants in order to let them rest for good?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8021083#msg8021083
Ha ha ha, it would be funny to keep stuff like that, but when we got around to looking at them we'd need to make sure they don't interfere with the regular operation of the game in some horrible way.
The concept of a ghost being able to pull off its own rest assistance or needing special conditions isn't in the game currently, but certainly it's a common enough thing that we'd hope at some distant point to be able to do that sort of thing, in the contexts of the generated metaphysical stuff. For now, the ghostly lts are just a simple exercise in the existing name stuff.
Quote from: AliceRed
I know this is pretty far into the mythical and magical future, but you bringing up soul mechanics just filled me with such curiosity I have to ask, even if the answers will probably be pretty lightweight. It's pretty cool just to see your vague plans for the future either way.
Do you think certain generated Underworlds will be filled with the ghost/spirits/bodies of those who end up dying and going there, as some Mythgen slides mentioned certain Dwarves going to the "wild world" upon death with the same text color as other similarly ominous sounding places in other slides?
For that matter, what do you hope the variance of generated realms to be? Could there be realms which are essentially massive buildings when it comes to environment, ala some interpretations of Hell? Likewise, could some unpleasant dimensions like the Underworld be focused on darkness or cold rather than heat and flame like the current underworld in your vision? I'm curious, since across fantasy and especially real world mythology, evil planes can be so unique and varied - even different interpretations of Christian cosmology say Hell is hot, dark, bloody, etc.
Since reincarnation also seems to be a thing in Mythgen, would a sort of spiritual "history" be possible? Like where a Dorf or other entity's past lives are chronicled historically, I think it could be pretty neat. Possibly something that could be tied into divining-type magic whenever worlds generate with it.
Finally, will high-fantasy worlds where races are unlucky enough to be generated with mortal souls have a greater desire for immortality among individuals? Or at least more of their personalities generating with a fear of death?
Afterlife: We hope so, yeah! We've wanting to do something like this for a long time, getting all of the metaphysics straight with as many of the consequences as we can. There are various issues, of course. With our population caps the way they are, the dead come to outnumber the living very quickly, and this has memory/speed/etc. implications when trying to house them in any meaningful way. Fortunately, because they are dead, and probably contacted/visited in some odd way, we can probably just have them drift in and out for the most part, in any number of ways, or otherwise not track them fully.
Plane variety: As much variety as we can support, really. The current systems get us a lot, and the map rewrite will get us a lot more (especially as it relates to a Dante-style hell, or any of the other sorts, well beyond regular square-planes-with-elevation.) And there are still all kinds of things we'd need to capture after that which we probably won't get to immediately (large weather phenomena whipping around, lightning/energy crackling about - these are all on the table, but it's a vast table and the first release after the map rewrite still won't do most of it.)
Reincarnation history: Ha ha, yeah, it'll likely be important in some of the magic systems to manage the soul identities well. The way the histories interact with a partial identity wipe is the tricky part - and we already see this in situations like night creature transformation, where the old status of the creature is virtually lost, making the legends read poorly. To make it more satisfying, it'll need to understand where the transition points are and refer to them properly. They aren't incredibly frequent, so it seems manageable, but when the reincarnations are really bustling, and we have ~20000 historical people going into another 20000 and etc., we have to be a little careful. Though with the current id numbers and naming systems we have, we really just need a few extra data structures. Gets a little expensive after many generations, but that's also manageable (with a softer version of the current culling system, say, where some souls just drift off into the non-historical pool for a time.)
Fear of death: I dunno if that's how it works. I suppose in high fantasy you might mean settings where the ones with immortal souls are more obviously correct about it (due to their souls flitting about and so forth)? Among my religious and non-religious acquaintances for which I have any inkling of it, fear of death seems equally common or intense, though none of them are seeking physical immortality as far as I know, he he he.
Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
Will the sphere of a secret affect the type of area it spreads, if it spreads influence over the surroundings at all? Like how necromancer towers spread reanimating (I would assume) evil areas, would a secret with the blight sphere kill vegetation, and deformity evil creature populations like the described freed demon spheres? Or is the reanimating region spread part of some specific feature of the necromancer code itself?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8021070#msg8021070
A reanimation effect, or the fact of having a sphere-spreading ruler critter (the new usable tag currently applied to unique demons), spreads the field. But using a magical interaction power in regular play doesn't do anything. It's likely to be blown up by the magic release entirely, so messing with in-play sphere-region casting effects seemed counterproductive.
Quote from: Doorkeeper
Thanks Toady, the slides [for the FDG talk] would be appreciated.
We're going to try for one better first, if we can - quite likely I'll be giving a very similar talk in November, and we're focusing on getting it recorded this time in a nice recording-oriented room.
Quote from: MadMonkey
When there are more types of secrets, what will be the different ways of learning them?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8022479#msg8022479
AliceRed: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8022709#msg8022709
MadMonkey (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8022736#msg8022736
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8022744#msg8022744
As FantasticDorf says, there are really any number of possibilities. The myth generator throws a bunch of them into the mix, but which ones actually get implemented will depend on how things are going at the time as much as anything, as usual. But innate abilities of different kinds, teaching of various forms, exposure of various forms, supernatural mentors/patrons of various kinds, as starting points, and then you can get to stranger systems until things are as odd as six-stage parasite life cycles I guess.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Can you tell us any details about what the Steam tutorial will look like? Are you going to cover specific key/menu navigation (build vs. designate), or more general concepts like 'how to farm'?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8023295#msg8023295
Yeah, as Shonai_Dweller says/links, we don't have additional specific information. But we are aiming to get people happy inside their first fortress, whatever that might take. A lot, maybe!
Quote from: squamous
1. How will food management work for adventuring parties. If we're able to control them all, will we need to take their food and water supplies into account? Will they get food by themselves or will we need to manually control them to feed them/put food in their inventory?
2. Will it be possible for adventurers or armies to travel across mountains in the near future? Right now they can isolate huge portions of the map from each other, so I was wondering how it would affect things like criminal conspiracies and new traveling agents like exiled religions/player-sent minions. Will they be able to move across the world or just their local region?
3. What exactly are the things that influence whether an animal man population will join a civilization? So far I am fairly sure a high respect for nature influences it but everything else is guesswork.
4. You mentioned new interactions like creating fog. Will there be any interactions that allow you to heal missing limbs besides the current werebeast method?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8024412#msg8024412
iceball3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8026263#msg8026263
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8026369#msg8026369
1. Ha ha ha, there appears to be a tag in the notes called 'must resolve' for this one. So we'll get it done, whatever that means. I don't recall the current behavior. I'd lean toward making it as non-irritating as possible, and failing that, turn it off for them. I don't want you to have to flip manually between characters for every nibble or sip. In two of our previous projects, we had companions go grab stuff off by themselves, including shopping, but that's a little trickier here so I'm not sure we'll go that far immediately.
2. Ultimately, mountains (mostly) isolating portions of the map is good, since they do that. But it is inconsistent now, for a variety of reasons. But most of the inconsistencies run the other way now (travel being too permissive - right now people except for you just run across mountains.) This does allow networks to keep in touch a little more easily. We were hoping to have better passes or functional tunnel pathing or whatever, but it hasn't happened yet.
3. Let's see. Has a 'market' town (of whatever kind), values nature, speaks. The populations need to be nearby, which means having wilderness with savagery values around in vanilla. It also skips ocean and lake tiles.
4. It's a bit silly, the context in which they occur, since, as people have noted and was also clear at the time, the divinations would be quite popular if the worst thing that can happen is being an animal for a week, where on the other hand you can grow your arm back. Although, realistically, being a small animal is very scary, being preyed upon would suck, and you'd want a friend to take care of you, but people would manage. Still, yes, but it's ridiculous.
Quote from: Silverwing235
About adventurer party sizes, in particular: Is the current limit of 6 hardcoded, or planned to be user-adjustable? (I speak with the viewpoint of one who has designs on a proper "Thorin & Company"-style setup, post mythgen.)
At some point, if six was hardcoded (I don't recall that from a year ago), it became not the case. Even Ultima 4 had eight-member parties if I recall, so I have to go at least that large. I don't think there's a limit currently.
Quote from: Doomblade187
Is there any plans to implement dwarven nurseries, to potentially provide "proper" childcare for dwarves, and potentially lower the number of warbabies? Related quote and suggestion from Scriver and others below.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8026861#msg8026861
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8027092#msg8027092
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8027093#msg8027093
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8027442#msg8027442
Clearly the current system of wearing babies into combat and also allowing all orphaned babies to crawl off into the magma unattended is a little too hardcore for almost any conception of a dwarf. Not sure when we'll change it, obviously. But we'd like to do something, yeah.
Quote from: DG
How far away is the villain system from producing a stereotypical fantasy thieves guild? In my mind it can be boiled down to a criminal organisation that might not actively invent or undertake plots but who's permission (and a tax) is required before professional criminal activity is undertaken in their sphere of influence. It may or may not have some sort of tacit agreement with a legitimate government. Is a thieves guild something you'd like to see come up in certain gens?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8026960#msg8026960
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8027095#msg8027095
So, yeah, bypassing the major and ultimately necessary issues that PatrikLundell brings up (economy, laws, etc.) for this to make sense, we are sort of sitting on something vaguely like it now. The higher up villainous orgs don't do as many gigs, and we do have a tax system for any org that is under their umbrella - they kick a percentage up to their immediate parent, and that might happen a few times. Once the organizations grow closer and ultimately join with the top one, the individual criminals still kick money upward. (Mercenaries also pay a bit to their companies if they take individual contracts, which can happen as part of a plot.) But this isn't understood in any meaningful way that the player can see - if they steal stuff, they won't be noticed as a competitor, though other non-player gangs in the town are in some very limited sense. And also, yeah, law enforcement can be made lenient as part of a bribery plot.
So, whether that's "organized crime" or a "fantasy thieves guild", I'm not sure quite how those concepts overlap, but we're headed toward various versions of that as we go.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You've filled up the world with plotting villains, zombie apocalypses and monasteries while updating the interface with org charts to help people to find their way around while giving them pets, companions and strategic combat to keep them distracted. Do you think Adventure Mode is now close to Fortress Mode's level of "being somewhat like an actual game" now? Relatively speaking of course, I know there's tons more to add which will enhance both modes.
(I know Adventurer has it's "better than fortress mode" fans, and I'm one of them sometimes, this is just about Toady's opinion, based on his past comments on the state of Adventurer compared with Fortress).
Ha ha, I dunno - it still feels like it needs more structure, tied in to the societies and individuals. Due to its relative microscope nature vs. fortress mode, it might be hard to shake that feeling. I'm not done with the investigations though. That was supposed to be an important rafter holding something like a game up. But it feels like we still need some more basic above-board political structuring that'll let the world change, so it feels like you have a properly reactive story, rather than something on-the-balance destructive or oblivious. Dwarf mode has these problems as well, but it can escape the feeling of them by having the whole fort there bustling and providing more fluidly creative options.
Quote from: bieux
I have some questions about the incoming updates to fortress mode. Earlier this year it was mentioned that the player could notice plotting if they saw that two or more dwarves spent too much of their time talking to each other. Assuming this is how plotting is going to be implemented:
1. Will seeking social interaction only extend to plotting dwarves or are other dwarves going to gain this ability in this update?
2. Is plotting/interacting socially going to take only dwarven idle-time or is work-time going to be affected by this?
3. Will visitors be included in plotting? (i.e. a migrant arived on the fort, and after a year or so a vilanous traveler that happened to know them came to ask for a favor and leave, or vice versa; Or even someone up the chain maintaning contact with an agent in your fort for interciv plots)
4. Would dwarves that overheard plotting be able to catch part of the plan and feed that information to the justice screen, or will they simply accuse dorfs of plotting?
5. How adversarial can dorfs get now? If that migrant was the spy all along, when they become incriminated, will they see no reason to keep their act and start fighting everyone?
1. Do you mean in terms of fixing the stress/needs stuff? We'd certainly like to fix that side of it up.
2. I'm not sure yet. It would be nice if plotting overlapped with idle time, but plotters might not have their schedules align and we'll have to see. Dwarves are supposed to chat at work already a bit.
3. Yeah, visitors will very likely be involved, due to how the villainous networks are structured (some of the handlers can't afford to just move to your fort permanently, and if they did, somebody would just need to visit them anyway, if we're dealing with an off-site villain.)
4. The current plan is to send the information to (some probably new part of) the justice screen, using the same system more or less as we're developing for evidence in adventure mode. This'll also slowly point toward restructuring the entire criminal justice system for non-villainous crimes around more of an evidence-based approach as well (on top of the current witness reports), but we won't do that now.
5. If they want to die, I guess! Maybe it'll be best to take a stroke of the hammer instead. We haven't gotten to fort mode yet, so it's not decided. Perhaps they'll need to make a choice. We're leaning toward you mostly being able to collect information from people though, when you can, just to keep the plots intact, so even if they do go pseudo-berserk, perhaps you'll still be able to capture them. We've also talked about capturing siege prisoners by now at some point as I recall. We'll also be dealing with this sort of thing in adv mode presently, though mostly there we can just keep using the yield system. Although we'll see. Imprisoning people is way more popular in world gen now, and we might need to come in line with that by allowing you to march people off to jail, ha ha ha, just to keep the systems intact.
Quote from: Beag
1. Can necromancers/demons utilize mega beasts in their experimentation? For example making a new creature using parts of a dragon and a human?
2. Will new races created by necromancers have some abilities of the creatures they were created from? Some examples would be a carnivorous diet or the ability to fly.
3. What do necromancers/demons do with new races they create assuming they don't escape? I'd assume they wouldn't just kill a creation they spent so long working on.
4. If a player playing as a race created by a necromancer/demon visit's that necromancer/demon's base would they still be hostile to that player even though the player is of a race they created?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8031394#msg8031394
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8031603#msg8031603
1. PlumpHelmetMan answered this one. They just use settlements.
2. FantasticDorf answered this one. Not yet!
3. Yeah, they can become valid cheerful populations within the tower, even assuming positions in the necromancer's organization/schemes along with the undead lts and ghosts. Assuming they are intelligent humanoids. The quadrupeds and monstrous critters are kept as pets and used in armies.
4. The player would be classed as a night creature and every zombie would therefore be cool with their presence. The intelligence critters can still use their heads, and because the player would be coming from a place where it is known that there's an established population of the new critter that is no longer down with the evil plans, I think it is fair for them to be stopped, as a human-town gob would be at a demon tower. Of course, you can assume an identity etc. To the extent that works. I think it'd work (or not work) like the goblin identity checks.
Quote from: some_stranger
1. Will there be any form of beta access keys for the steam release?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8031728#msg8031728
Yeah, the current plan doesn't involve an open beta. As for what happens after that (see PatrikLundell's comment), that I don't know. Regarding beta-every-time, I doubt that - we were leaning toward the experimental/stable branch setup other people have used in the past, and as far as I can tell, Steam supports that. On those occasions when we have save-breaking versions, once the Steam version has been up, as far as I know, Steam will update the game when I update it on the site. I haven't used Steam enough to know about various branching possibilities, but we'll need to look into that as we go.
Quote from: iceball3
Do you think the collectiom of criminal networks and further developments down the line in Law And Order might end up with enough foundation to support a new game mode, a la Liberal Crime Squad? Or will the scope of player control largely be confined to the two current perspectives: that currently being single adventurer liasing with individual contacts and communal independent settlement (adventure and dwarf mode respectively)?
We've just added the player-controlled party to adventure mode, and that may lead to some distribution of play. Even in this coming release, you'll be able to split your group up, for instance, and control either half (even if you end up unable to freely switch between them over long distances, you could still meet up and then take control of completely different characters.) So it comes down to some other questions, about how sites are administered, say, and how time passes. Bits of that have also been slowly changing in adv mode over time. I expect stuff will just get more mushy, toward whatever style the player is leaning into.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Speaking of Uruk-hai, how far would you say the game is now from being able to generate a simplified version of LOTR? It seems to me that the villain update will give us quite a few of the pieces: artifacts that can be the subject of plots (albeit not magical ones just yet), intelligent undead servants furthering the agendas of their masters, alliances, and supernatural overlords corrupting the very land with their influence and twisting natural creatures to create their own servants are a few of the elements that I can name off-hand. Of course you'd probably have a better sense of that than me, which is why I'm asking.
Ha ha, 'simplified' can do a lot of work there - we are already done by some metrics. So it depends on the kinds of things you want. As you say, we are getting more coverage as we go. But, on the other hand, for stuff like having a functioning fellowship that has various interpersonal push and pull to it, we aren't really close, though we could make some modest progress if we leaned more that direction. And take, say, Rivendell vs. Lothlorien vs. Mirkwood elves - those places feel very different from each other on any number of axes, and we don't attain much there, just a few surface trimmings. And so on. Lots to do.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With conspiracy and world conquest now strong themes within the game, are we going to see books being written about the topics, and these themes also reflected in the art and artifacts generated during world gen as with other historical events?
Anything that happens with historical events will happen with these, yeah, probably in somewhat ridiculous fashion at times. I'm not sure if they were already blowing the cover identities of civ-affiliated agents in random engravings and books and other artwork already, but there's not much to stop them. Due to the sheer number of events, it hasn't been a pressing priority, and there are some technical hurdles, but we might try to keep certain events more secret before the end, especially if it starts to screw up investigations etc.
Post by: DG on October 01, 2019, 01:27:43 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 01, 2019, 03:16:08 am
Ha, "skips ocean tiles", no wonder my poor coastal hobbits never attracted any mermaid immigrants. :D
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 01, 2019, 04:43:24 am
Quote from: Toady1
3. Let's see. Has a 'market' town (of whatever kind), values nature, speaks. The populations need to be nearby, which means having wilderness with savagery values around in vanilla. It also skips ocean and lake tiles.
Hmm interesting, thanks for the replies Toady.
So... if i flooded my civilization with elven propaganda redistributed by a trained scribe id probably have a lot of animal people turn up into the civ (not nessecarily fort, unless somehow it prompts a lot of sanctuary petitions) within 200 years? Neat. Elsewise its just something to configure with in modding in mind.
Doesn't seem to affect generated animalpeople all that much, you often have (suprisingly often carnivorous, i wonder if there's a connection) -people like saltwater crocodile men appear around dark towers, though that might be due to goblins being free to settle and border those regions.
Post by: Doorkeeper on October 01, 2019, 10:01:35 am
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: DoorkeeperThanks Toady, the slides [for the FDG talk] would be appreciated.
We're going to try for one better first, if we can - quite likely I'll be giving a very similar talk in November, and we're focusing on getting it recorded this time in a nice recording-oriented room.
That sounds even better. Thank you.
Post by: prawn on October 01, 2019, 04:40:40 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 01, 2019, 05:23:07 pm
Any plans to implement martial arts/body enhancing magical tags? I.e. bone enhancing, skin hardening, super speed? If so, would these spells be passed down in monasteries or kept down on paper?Suggestions forum is your friend.
Also timeline? Do you mean in the next release? (Not likely).
Sometime during the next 3 decades of development? (Maybe, but not likely to have been decided yet).
Post by: Strife26 on October 01, 2019, 07:06:27 pm
Any plans to do a meet-and-greet at the roguelike celebration or strictly attending incognito?
Post by: Toady One on October 01, 2019, 10:35:08 pm
Any plans to do a meet-and-greet at the roguelike celebration or strictly attending incognito?
I should jump in here since it's just a few days away. We don't have any specific plans beyond attending the event, and we're just going to be in town for those two weekend days. But it's a much bigger space than the first year, and there's more time overall - it'll be much easier to sit and chat with people who've come by. We're also open to more structured ideas, though we can't disrupt the event itself. We might be able to block out a time there during one of the lunches or breaks. It's in the same place as last year, so there should be a ton of tables. The lunch blocks are an hour and a half, which is quite a chunk. The 5pm break on the first day is also pretty long. Are you coming to the celebration?
Post by: Strife26 on October 02, 2019, 01:41:15 am
Post by: feelotraveller on October 02, 2019, 03:31:10 am
Clearly the current system of wearing babies into combat and also allowing all orphaned babies to crawl off into the magma unattended is a little too hardcore for almost any conception of a dwarf. Not sure when we'll change it, obviously. But we'd like to do something, yeah.
...ah babies, apologies for missing the context. ;)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 03, 2019, 04:06:38 am
Post by: MrWiggles on October 04, 2019, 06:49:26 am
While conversation may be a safer option than beating someone into submission, will excessive enquiring raise suspicion and eventual retaliation from villains too?If not now, then eventually. If I am understanding the rumor system correctly, you asking questions should generate its own rumor events which then get circulated that can reach it way back to villians. But I dont recall Toadyone saying that Villians can plan to counter your actions yet. Just that you can discover and follow the plots back to the villians themselves.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 04, 2019, 05:23:11 pm
If you use violence to get information about villains they will hear about it and most likely retaliate (Wednesday dev blog here and Steam). Conversation, Toady says, is a "safer option". I'm asking what Toady means by "safer". Completely safe or chance of discovery and if that risk accumulates or if it's the same risk each time.While conversation may be a safer option than beating someone into submission, will excessive enquiring raise suspicion and eventual retaliation from villains too?If not now, then eventually. If I am understanding the rumor system correctly, you asking questions should generate its own rumor events which then get circulated that can reach it way back to villians. But I dont recall Toadyone saying that Villians can plan to counter your actions yet. Just that you can discover and follow the plots back to the villians themselves.
Post by: therahedwig on October 05, 2019, 07:06:20 am
Post by: Asi Kom, Legendary Scribe on October 05, 2019, 12:26:40 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 05, 2019, 02:19:03 pm
Will we be able to send out our own spies to neighboring civilizations in order to gather information about other civs and their intentions in fortress mode? Not in an aggressive manner I mean, but in a "I like to know what's going on to keep the peace" kind of wayThe convention is to use lime green for questions to Toady. This is to allow him to locate questions among all the discussions when it comes to answering them (you can update your post to add the color).
It can also be noted that a fortress is not a civ, but a unit within a civ, so that level of activity is beyond fortress players (who, asymmetrically, can goad civs into wars by attacking their sites [or just by refusing unreasonable pointy ear demands], but can't broker peace). However, it seems likely fortresses will be able to engage in some kind of spying against individual sites (which might sum up to every site owned by that civ). Exactly what will appear remains to be seen, however, as Toady hasn't reached Fortress Mode yet. While he doubtlessly has plans and intentions, issues can and will crop up, causing some plans to be shelved for the time being.
Post by: Death Dragon on October 05, 2019, 07:00:37 pm
1 Does the player have any way to change the 'loyalty', 'trust/distrust', 'fear', 'love/hate', 'respect' values an NPC has to them or are we stuck with the default values? I could see it be possible to increase the fear and maybe respect values, but what about the other stuff?
2 Would reciting a poem exceptionally well make an NPC respect us more and thus more likely to share secret information with us?
3 Will we be able to use coins to bribe people even though there is no economy?
4 If we are able to bribe people with money, will this money then be added to that hist fig's "account" or are the accounts still just world gen only for now?
Post by: squamous on October 11, 2019, 08:16:49 am
1. Given that vampires will be getting such an overhaul come next update, can we expect something like being able to ask for/demand blood and gain it in a non-violent/non-lethal fashion, or will NPCs continue to be murderous? On that note, is there a way to create vampires which need to feed on blood, but don't have the BLOODSUCKER tag? I've tried experimenting with just using [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED] but it didn't seem to work.
2. I've noticed that sometimes when I put an adventurer in cities, they'll run into asterisks which will turn out to be things like crocodiles and cave dragons in the streets. Are these LARGE_PREDATOR type animals conducting raids on the town or do they live in the sewers or something and come out to cause mischief?
Post by: Untrustedlife on October 11, 2019, 10:12:51 pm
1. Given that vampires will be getting such an overhaul come next update, can we expect something like being able to ask for/demand blood and gain it in a non-violent/non-lethal fashion, or will NPCs continue to be murderous? On that note, is there a way to create vampires which need to feed on blood, but don't have the BLOODSUCKER tag? I've tried experimenting with just using [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED] but it didn't seem to work.
2. I've noticed that sometimes when I put an adventurer in cities, they'll run into asterisks which will turn out to be things like crocodiles and cave dragons in the streets. Are these LARGE_PREDATOR type animals conducting raids on the town or do they live in the sewers or something and come out to cause mischief?
Asterisks on the map can be various things, armies, adventurers, monsters, etc,
Its not just monsters from the sewers, it can be raiders, or things from the sewers or anything in between. It just means "someone is traveling here" basically. So they could be from anywhere.
Most of the monsters taht are asterisks though are from lairs surrounding the city. Not from the sewers So raiding monsters.
Post by: squamous on October 12, 2019, 05:18:49 am
1. Given that vampires will be getting such an overhaul come next update, can we expect something like being able to ask for/demand blood and gain it in a non-violent/non-lethal fashion, or will NPCs continue to be murderous? On that note, is there a way to create vampires which need to feed on blood, but don't have the BLOODSUCKER tag? I've tried experimenting with just using [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED] but it didn't seem to work.
2. I've noticed that sometimes when I put an adventurer in cities, they'll run into asterisks which will turn out to be things like crocodiles and cave dragons in the streets. Are these LARGE_PREDATOR type animals conducting raids on the town or do they live in the sewers or something and come out to cause mischief?
Asterisks on the map can be various things, armies, adventurers, monsters, etc,
Its not just monsters from the sewers, it can be raiders, or things from the sewers or anything in between. It just means "someone is traveling here" basically. So they could be from anywhere.
Most of the monsters taht are asterisks though are from lairs surrounding the city. Not from the sewers So raiding monsters.
I see. Maybe this is a bug on Legendsviewer then, because there are a bunch of animals listed as "outcasts" like how criminals are outcasts, not like how normal LARGE_PREDATOR types are treated.
Post by: Untrustedlife on October 12, 2019, 04:26:00 pm
1. Given that vampires will be getting such an overhaul come next update, can we expect something like being able to ask for/demand blood and gain it in a non-violent/non-lethal fashion, or will NPCs continue to be murderous? On that note, is there a way to create vampires which need to feed on blood, but don't have the BLOODSUCKER tag? I've tried experimenting with just using [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED] but it didn't seem to work.
2. I've noticed that sometimes when I put an adventurer in cities, they'll run into asterisks which will turn out to be things like crocodiles and cave dragons in the streets. Are these LARGE_PREDATOR type animals conducting raids on the town or do they live in the sewers or something and come out to cause mischief?
Asterisks on the map can be various things, armies, adventurers, monsters, etc,
Its not just monsters from the sewers, it can be raiders, or things from the sewers or anything in between. It just means "someone is traveling here" basically. So they could be from anywhere.
Most of the monsters taht are asterisks though are from lairs surrounding the city. Not from the sewers So raiding monsters.
I see. Maybe this is a bug on Legendsviewer then, because there are a bunch of animals listed as "outcasts" like how criminals are outcasts, not like how normal LARGE_PREDATOR types are treated.
My point was they can be from the sewers aswell, its just that most of them are from lairs
Post by: Enemy post on October 12, 2019, 09:27:33 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 12, 2019, 11:23:16 pm
What happens if a necromancer tries to incorporate a modded creature with custom bodyparts into one of their hybrid creatures?Dwarf Fortress creatures are made up of body parts which the system understands. Won't cause any problems, I imagine.
Post by: voliol on October 13, 2019, 04:12:10 am
What happens if a necromancer tries to incorporate a modded creature with custom bodyparts into one of their hybrid creatures?
The experiments are seemingly not very dependent on the source material, they seemingly mostly count limbs. I suppose if you had a centipede-creature as either your main race or lifestock you could get some funny results.
Quote from: Toady One
[...]
an individual necromancer sticks with one of each kind once they have a successful experiment (that is humanoid, small quad+, large quad+, giant.)
[...]Quote from: BeakromancerWill magical experiments have different traits depending on what creatures they were made from? For example, a creature made from elfs being at peace with wildlife.
EDIT: A better example would be a creature made from dwarves needing alcohol.
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005095#msg8005095
Haven't done anything like that yet! The creature generator does understand the input creature (at least on the first humanoid, before it starts defaulting to the same result to save memory), but doesn't use it beyond counting limbs and stuff to see if the output should be humanoid/quadruped/etc. and also the basic size.
I guess it is interesting that the word "humanoid" is used. Are the "humanoid" necromancer experiments actually humanoids, made from any captured creature with the right body plan (uses one of the HUMANOID body tokens, or has the right amount of stance/grasp parts), including livestock that do? Or is it just a shorthand for an INTELLIGENT/CAN_LEARN creature, in which case "humanoid" experiments from snakeman and centaur civilizations would not end up truly humanoid?
Post by: squamous on October 13, 2019, 09:06:43 am
1. Given that vampires will be getting such an overhaul come next update, can we expect something like being able to ask for/demand blood and gain it in a non-violent/non-lethal fashion, or will NPCs continue to be murderous? On that note, is there a way to create vampires which need to feed on blood, but don't have the BLOODSUCKER (ie murdering people in their sleep behavior trigger) tag? I've tried experimenting with just using [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED] but it didn't seem to work.
2. I've noticed that sometimes when I put an adventurer in cities, they'll run into asterisks which will turn out to be things like crocodiles and cave dragons in the streets. Are these LARGE_PREDATOR type animals conducting raids on the town or do they live in the sewers or something and come out to cause mischief?
Asterisks on the map can be various things, armies, adventurers, monsters, etc,
Its not just monsters from the sewers, it can be raiders, or things from the sewers or anything in between. It just means "someone is traveling here" basically. So they could be from anywhere.
Most of the monsters taht are asterisks though are from lairs surrounding the city. Not from the sewers So raiding monsters.
Post by: Bydth on October 13, 2019, 06:18:20 pm
Post by: Bumber on October 13, 2019, 09:22:59 pm
Will the activities of a player fort influence its post-retire activities, such as a fort with a powerhouse glass industry continuing to export glass objects? Will forts that produced lots of high-quality weapons and armor give equipment level bonuses to armies/mercenary groups recruited/based in that fort?That's something for the Economy Arc, a ways off.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on October 14, 2019, 09:05:01 pm
For the Myth & Magic arc, would I be correct in thinking that spheres will be the underlying general mechanic behind magic under which procedurally generated world-specific systems operate, rather than being an esoteric world-specific system in its own right?
Do you conceive of magical effects combining spheres, or will reach magical effect require only one sphere to use? For instance, would you need to or be able to combine a fire and a telekinetic sphere 8n order to cast a fireball spell (i.e one sphere to make the fire, another to move it)?
Will every game object be attached to a sphere and vice versa, for mechanical purposes? I'm thinking of elemental rock-paper-scissors, so you could smash a stone forgotten beast with a water effect but not a lightning effect, for instance. With so many spheres and game objects/actors, would this be impractical or would it simplify working out how magical effects interact with the world?
To what extent do you already have satisfactory physical processes implemented in the game for marrying up to spell effects? For example, fire, heat, etc.
Is there a possibility that the Myth and Magic release will lead to the inclusion of ambient light levels in fort mode? Light and darkness are such important fantasy staples that it would seem like a missed opportunity for them to not be included.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 15, 2019, 03:12:40 am
I'd expect there to be both single sphere magic (effects) as well as multiple sphere ones, with various pre conditions, where some spells/rituals may only be possible in locations where all the required spheres have a sufficient influence, for instance, while others can be invoked regardless of active sphere influences (possibly barring opposing sphere influences), using thoughts, focii, etc.
You can't assign all objects to spheres in a reasonable manner. One reason is the fully mundane world, where there are no spheres at all, and the other issue is that the spheres present in a world depends on world gen, so many, quite possible most, spheres will be absent in many (or most, or all) worlds (with the selection of the spheres present being different in different world, of course).
However, it's quite possible items might be tagged with sphere associations that might have some chance of being realized if the specifice sphere is present. E.g. an anvil may be an ordinary anvil, but in some worlds it may also have some special relation to fire, while in another (or the same one) it may have a relation to metal and/or artifice.
In most magic systems I would expect associated object (or shape or color, for that matter) to just have a potential, i.e. dropping an anvil on something would cause physical damage (that may or may not be resisted), but to invoke a sphere relation in addition to that you'd also have to do something to activate the relation.
I don't see why Myth & Magic would be tied to introduction of fortress light sources at all. Adding light sources to Fortress Mode would result in adding a need to set them up (player chore), and possibly maintain them (workforce drain), as well as additional burden on the display system (shading tiles depending on the amount of light on each tile), causing display FPS drain.
A further question is what purpose it would serve apart from the aesthetic? I certainly can see a use for it in Adventure Mode, but there's limited use for it in a Fortress. The accelerated time means sneaking under the cloak of darkness for nefarious critters doesn't work well on the surface, while the general stealth system currently used by weres, kobolds, etc. does work without regards to the time of day (which isn't readily available to the player anyway).
Post by: voliol on October 15, 2019, 06:06:47 am
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: FieariQuote from: Fieari
How do you intend to make procedurally generated magic become "thematic"? Most fantasy works organize their magic around one or more themes, each theme having all magic working similarly. For example, some split magic into elements, or into schools. Brandon Sanderson is famous for particularly intricate magic systems... such as all magic requiring the user to ingest and "burn" metal inside their stomachs to cast spells. All fantasy magics that are more than fairytales have SOME organization to their magic.
I presume spheres would be involved. Will the RAWs have to expand to have lists of ways the spheres can influence magic? I know the myths will direct how magic works... but coherence is important! If a fire spirit is the source of magic in the world, how will the game know to make fire always part of the cost, or the effect, of the magic?
golemgunk and Shonai_Dweller mentioned using the creation myths for thematic consistency, and that's the starting principle we're going to work with. In the prototype, the spheres are linked to creators and creation methods and these are passed down the tree of causation; when a magic system is needed, magical effects attached to the proper spheres are preferred. It works pretty well on a very basic level. And we'll likely end up doing quite a bit more along those lines, criss-crossing the system with various conceptual linkages until it's vaguely good enough. Post-creation-myth actions can also be attached to spheres (or intermediate structures/concepts), so that, for instance, some grand betrayal in early historical world-gen can spawn a new magic system themed around deceptive effects.
There's a danger of being too on the nose sometimes, if you always go with the most obvious sphere, and we can try to leaven everything with some purely random elements, or have some higher-order procedural conceptual symbols that link together spheres more esoterically, something that can survive exposition but also give some more variability, e.g. the same way "fiery" can link up to "passionate" in some languages, and perhaps be linked to some canonical event or character.
Non-spherical rules can also arise from creation; if the universe begins with a primordial chaos of salt, and some creator turns salt into fire and water as a first step, then that universe's systems can respect 'salt' as the sort of basic element, with fire and water having a secondary but important status, and this can become a foundation for various generated systems. These have the fault of being somewhat random or rigid depending on the amount of guidance in their generation, but enough of these together should increase the variety a great deal, and pull the game away from "oh, there's a Fire God magic system again." Rules defining what life is and what happens during death, dreams, etc., can also interlink in non-spherical ways that enrich the systems, and we've discussed in the past using invisible personalities/'souls' to model half-living magical forces in ways that can link up with divination and miscasts in ways that go beyond tables and dice.
I'm hopeful things won't feel utterly mushy or random, nor too rigidly obedient to obvious connections, but it remains to be seen what we can actually pull off.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on October 15, 2019, 06:20:23 pm
What if you want to raise a dismembered corpse as a lieutenant? Can you raise an intelligent undead from both a severed head and its headless body? Would they share a soul or have two separate new souls, or is this just not possible?
For that matter, could you raise your own severed hand, for instance, as an intelligent undead? If your original body was then decapitated, could your severed hand then raise your body and head? This is assuming that the raised parts retain knowledge of life and death.
Is there already a mechanism in place for different bodies sharing a soul, and if not, do you plan to implement it? Either in the short term, or as part of Myth and Magic, do you intend to implement a mechanism whereby souls can be copied or cloned, so that they retain the original's memories and personality but thereafter grow and change as individuals?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 15, 2019, 09:32:24 pm
Is it possible to end up having to track down your ex-adventurers and will they start leaving evidence all over the place for you to follow? Or is the system not going to be that robust just yet?
Post by: Buttery_Mess on October 17, 2019, 08:45:17 am
Will we be able to use physical coercion and fear in lieu of intimidation checks? Such as, say, breaking fingers, or slaughtering all their mates in front of them? Does reputation count in intimidation checks? What about physical size and brawniness?
Post by: ZM5 on October 17, 2019, 02:49:14 pm
On that subject, will villains and their agents also get suspicious if they catch wind of the player questioning people around town?
Post by: Untrustedlife on October 17, 2019, 06:19:12 pm
A couple more questions;
What if you want to raise a dismembered corpse as a lieutenant? Can you raise an intelligent undead from both a severed head and its headless body? Would they share a soul or have two separate new souls, or is this just not possible?
For that matter, could you raise your own severed hand, for instance, as an intelligent undead? If your original body was then decapitated, could your severed hand then raise your body and head? This is assuming that the raised parts retain knowledge of life and death.
Is there already a mechanism in place for different bodies sharing a soul, and if not, do you plan to implement it? Either in the short term, or as part of Myth and Magic, do you intend to implement a mechanism whereby souls can be copied or cloned, so that they retain the original's memories and personality but thereafter grow and change as individuals?
Undead don't have the "souls", so yes you can raise your own hand and such. And yes you can raise both the head and body of someone.
They dont have souls so they dont have skills and such aswell if i recall.
Mist zombies still have souls though, as do vampires.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 17, 2019, 06:27:07 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on October 17, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
Wait, what are "mist zombies"? Or was that a typo?
Thralls created by evil mist. You havent seen them/become one in adventur emode?
Basically theres evil mist in some evil biomes, its called husking mist, it turns anything it touches into a mist zombie. The names are generated.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Undead
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 17, 2019, 07:18:34 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on October 17, 2019, 07:30:46 pm
Oh yeah, I did know about those. I've just never differentiated enough between them and necromancer zombies to give them a separate name. :P
Like i said, they maintain their souls and get crazy combat buffs and dont have the "hitpoints" (If you hit necromancer zombie enough they just die after enough force has been applied) And so mist zombies are much more tough and also you can become one in adventure mode so they are pretty awesome. :P
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 17, 2019, 07:33:08 pm
I think this question is about how the soul works with the new intelligent undead lieutenants. They retain part of their previous identity so presumably some of their skills and part of(?) their soul.A couple more questions;
What if you want to raise a dismembered corpse as a lieutenant? Can you raise an intelligent undead from both a severed head and its headless body? Would they share a soul or have two separate new souls, or is this just not possible?
For that matter, could you raise your own severed hand, for instance, as an intelligent undead? If your original body was then decapitated, could your severed hand then raise your body and head? This is assuming that the raised parts retain knowledge of life and death.
Is there already a mechanism in place for different bodies sharing a soul, and if not, do you plan to implement it? Either in the short term, or as part of Myth and Magic, do you intend to implement a mechanism whereby souls can be copied or cloned, so that they retain the original's memories and personality but thereafter grow and change as individuals?
Undead don't have the "souls", so yes you can raise your own hand and such. And yes you can raise both the head and body of someone.
They dont have souls so they dont have skills and such aswell if i recall.
Mist zombies still have souls though, as do vampires.
Post by: Untrustedlife on October 17, 2019, 07:36:35 pm
I think this question is about how the soul works with the new intelligent undead lieutenants. They retain part of their previous identity so presumably some of their skills and part of(?) their soul.A couple more questions;
What if you want to raise a dismembered corpse as a lieutenant? Can you raise an intelligent undead from both a severed head and its headless body? Would they share a soul or have two separate new souls, or is this just not possible?
For that matter, could you raise your own severed hand, for instance, as an intelligent undead? If your original body was then decapitated, could your severed hand then raise your body and head? This is assuming that the raised parts retain knowledge of life and death.
Is there already a mechanism in place for different bodies sharing a soul, and if not, do you plan to implement it? Either in the short term, or as part of Myth and Magic, do you intend to implement a mechanism whereby souls can be copied or cloned, so that they retain the original's memories and personality but thereafter grow and change as individuals?
Undead don't have the "souls", so yes you can raise your own hand and such. And yes you can raise both the head and body of someone.
They dont have souls so they dont have skills and such aswell if i recall.
Mist zombies still have souls though, as do vampires.
Ahh i misread that then, i thought they were talking about the current version. But now i see they say "Intelligent Undead" which is one of the new night creature types. Woops.
He said something about a soul generation interaction. So maybe they would both get their own soul in that case. But thats just a guess.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 21, 2019, 07:18:13 pm
Which civs will form alliances with each other? And, for modding reference, how is this determined? Does it take into account Babysnatcher/Item_Thief tags, current states of war, ethics?
I play with a mod which uses these tags to divide up the many different civs in my world so would be nice to know who's likely to be teaming up when the zombie apocalypse strikes.
Post by: Broms on October 22, 2019, 07:45:38 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 22, 2019, 07:47:09 pm
Another question about alliances, as I realised the second part of my question on them back in May wasn't clarified (answer focused on who people would form alliances against).
Which civs will form alliances with each other? And, for modding reference, how is this determined? Does it take into account Babysnatcher/Item_Thief tags, current states of war, ethics?
I play with a mod which uses these tags to divide up the many different civs in my world so would be nice to know who's likely to be teaming up when the zombie apocalypse strikes.
Pretty sure the original devlog from way back in the day mentioned "required killing of neutrals" as an alliance deal-breaker, at least as I remember it.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 22, 2019, 09:45:53 pm
The Devlog was talking about who people form alliances against (ie necromancers and goblins) and the fotf question in May seemed to be just confirming the same thing.Another question about alliances, as I realised the second part of my question on them back in May wasn't clarified (answer focused on who people would form alliances against).
Which civs will form alliances with each other? And, for modding reference, how is this determined? Does it take into account Babysnatcher/Item_Thief tags, current states of war, ethics?
I play with a mod which uses these tags to divide up the many different civs in my world so would be nice to know who's likely to be teaming up when the zombie apocalypse strikes.
Pretty sure the original devlog from way back in the day mentioned "required killing of neutrals" as an alliance deal-breaker, at least as I remember it.
That whole post with it's various replies and final Toady answer is kind of confusing and based on work which hadn't been completed at that point. So thought I'd clarify.
Devblog:
Quote
"When civilizations are feeling set upon by the more evil threats (any group that requires the killing of neutrals, like gobs and the undead), they can join up now..."
Post by: voliol on October 23, 2019, 09:54:07 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Still, as Shonai_Dweller said, it might be useful to get a current status report.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 23, 2019, 04:23:51 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on October 23, 2019, 09:46:28 pm
Yes, that is the fotf question I'm talking about. And, again, the question is who can form an alliance. Not who do people form alliances against. That's not answered here. Irrelevant in vanilla perhaps, but when working with mods it's good to know how these things are determined.
I'd like to know the answer to this as well, especially considering who alliances are formed against is covered by ethics. An alliance between dwarves, elves, and humans (depending on the ethics of the latter) would definitely fall apart after the war is over due to ethical friction between the two/three. How long an alliance might last due to the differing viewpoints involved could also perhaps be a consideration when forming one. Although, given the description of how the alliances work, them being temporary may be the point, given they're an, "okay, we'll stop squabbling to deal with this existential threat, but after that we'll go back to killing/glaring at each other," type of alliance.
Post by: tpssurvivor on October 24, 2019, 12:32:15 pm
As for now, if I'm not mistaken the dwarves only seem to build relationship with others when they are at a meeting hall or tavern, under the "Socialize" job. With the upcoming villain update and the rewrite of social interactions, will dwarves (or whatever race you are playing fort mode) be able to "chit chat" or interact with others while doing other stuff? (e.g. Hauling objects; building stuff; comming across others while going somewhere; While they raid sites; Train in the squads).
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 24, 2019, 04:33:38 pm
Question about relationships.They're supposed to exchange words outside of dedicated socializing, but my guess is that it isn't sufficiently sustained to count towards building relationships. While it was a few versions back, I've had dorfs get into fights with merchants at the trade depot, and as far as I could determine it was initiated by the exchange of words.
As for now, if I'm not mistaken the dwarves only seem to build relationship with others when they are at a meeting hall or tavern, under the "Socialize" job. With the upcoming villain update and the rewrite of social interactions, will dwarves (or whatever race you are playing fort mode) be able to "chit chat" or interact with others while doing other stuff? (e.g. Hauling objects; building stuff; comming across others while going somewhere; While they raid sites; Train in the squads).
I doubt they'll chat while or raids, as they're offloaded from the fortress (causing mess and corruption when reloaded on return), but one might hope the Villain requirement to actually seek out specific contacts for nefarious purposes in fortresses might rub off on dorfs with needs to see friends and/or family (as well as to seek out potential partners to form families in the first place).
If fortress plotters would be as inept at seeking out contacts as fortress dorfs are currently, there will be no need to fear any plots will progress anywhere...
Post by: Cruxador on October 25, 2019, 04:07:47 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 25, 2019, 04:25:10 am
Organized religions, craft guilds, and more formal clans/families are something that I've been wanting for a long time. At this point, aside from the huge things that will each require multiple years, and things that have already been added, it's the thing I want the most. Certainly more than the villain stuff; although it's cool in some respects, the groups being added to Fort mode provides a social structure that has been one of the biggest omissions with regards to simulating a realistic community. If they also can have or claim rooms jointly (offices and meeting halls, including places of worship for religions, and perhaps workshops or other means of production for guilds) then that will do a ton to make the forts more believably alive, and perhaps even encourage more organic layouts. What's more, it can add an aspect of managing different factions to the game, on top of just building infrastructure, and will make individuals more distinct and notable.Remember there 's a whole development arc dedicated to these things coming up after the Mythgen releases, so while we may see something, don' t get your hopes up too much for anything more than bare-bones representation.
Post by: Eric Blank on October 25, 2019, 01:07:24 pm
Latest devlog (10/24/2019) again mentions the possibility of losing because officials are corrupted. Do you intend for that to be a hard "game over" type lose? For instance, I could still run the fort if those corrupted officials stick to only stealing away things occasionally but still follow my orders re; posting militia to keep goblins out. Say, they're only ignoring part of my orders, those that are counter to their own objectives. That would still be playable, theyd basically just be slightly more obstinate than usual.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 25, 2019, 03:40:53 pm
As far as I understood from that dev log, Toady was considering means by which you could wrest control of the fortress back, such as e.g. through an uprising, so the issue is under consideration. I wouldn't expect any specific answers to what you'd be able to do until development reaches that issue, though.
Latest devlog (10/24/2019) again mentions the possibility of losing because officials are corrupted. Do you intend for that to be a hard "game over" type lose? For instance, I could still run the fort if those corrupted officials stick to only stealing away things occasionally but still follow my orders re; posting militia to keep goblins out. Say, they're only ignoring part of my orders, those that are counter to their own objectives. That would still be playable, theyd basically just be slightly more obstinate than usual.
Note that there are different kinds of "corruption". Criminal embezzlement may well become visible through things you'd ordered disappearing and whatnot, i.e. the "obstinate" version, but a goblin overlord or a vampire schemer would probably not stop at that level, but would continue until they've gotten full control of the fortress, as that's probably their goal (for the fortress: there's a whole world out there to deal with, one settlement at a time, although a vampire may well settle with a fortress full of food).
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 26, 2019, 06:57:17 pm
Are the pets in custom adventuring parties directly controllable? Or are they restricted to just following the P.C.s?
Post by: Death Dragon on October 28, 2019, 10:45:04 am
"The first part was to add some new per-character variables to every conversation - how much a person wants to stay, whether they are pleased with things, and how confident/dominant/composed they are feeling"
Does that maybe mean there will be less "it was inevitable/ it is terrifying" and more actual emotion in people's reactions while talking?
Post by: Weirdsound on October 29, 2019, 01:56:04 pm
Post by: therahedwig on October 29, 2019, 03:58:05 pm
Can you explain what you meant with:Probably not, because, based on what I know about adventure mode characters, a lot of that is caused by histfigs having no clue what you are talking about. Like, even thought they can tell you about the dragon in a cave on the other side of the world, they won't actually know about the dragon in a cave on the other side of the world until you tell them the same rumour back, and even then they don't know what a dragon is. So hence the 'it was inevitable/terrifying' reply. I personally suspect a lot of that is going to wait for the entity rework in the law and customs arc, as it is very related to how a brand new histfig relates to the entities it is part of.
"The first part was to add some new per-character variables to every conversation - how much a person wants to stay, whether they are pleased with things, and how confident/dominant/composed they are feeling"
Does that maybe mean there will be less "it was inevitable/ it is terrifying" and more actual emotion in people's reactions while talking?
I had a case where I discovered someone was a bandit lieutenant because they thought it was terrifying I beat up their boss, while everyone else thought I did good, so when it works it works, but it does depend on histfigs knowing what you're on about.
Weirdsound, you do know pedestals and display-cases are a thing nowadays?
Edit:
So, I know creatures with a nature loving trait get a happy thought from seeing an animal, but do you think you have the time to let dwarves pet their animals? In general, a key characteristic of villains is that they cause a lot of stress in others. Is there any kind of balancing in terms of destressors you guys are planning?
Post by: Beag on October 29, 2019, 07:18:06 pm
2. You mentioned modifiers such as loyalty and love in how interrogation will work, does this mean our adventurers will finally be able to have friends and romantic interests to sate their needs for such things since those modifiers imply such relations will be possible?
3. With how easy it is to just loot valuables from warehouses in adventure mode in mind how effective do you think bribing NPCs to talk will be? I ask this as less scrupulous adventurers can easily procure a supply of goods to bribe people with from warehouses.
4. If our adventurer's use violence in interrogation in a town and word got out of that would they be penalized with a violent reputation still?
Post by: DerMeister on October 29, 2019, 07:52:10 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 29, 2019, 08:06:42 pm
Also, questions for Toady should be posted in lime green. Easier for him to find.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 29, 2019, 08:55:59 pm
When villains update will be finished and/or downlodable?The last official announcement in which Today stated his schedule was in April 2018 when he said he'd take up to six more months before moving on to the Big Wait.
So...yeah, you can see why he doesn't make his scheudling public more often...
Post by: DG on October 29, 2019, 09:28:18 pm
Is there any kind of balancing in terms of destressors you guys are planning?
Looks like they're planning to tackle it sooner rather than later. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174931.msg8047476#msg8047476
Post by: DerMeister on October 29, 2019, 09:51:36 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 29, 2019, 10:09:50 pm
Will butchering sentient corpse bug solved in Villains Update?Take a look at the bug tracker. Hundreds of bugs. Many major. Many not at all major and you probably wouldn't notice them if you weren't trying to mod that one specific thing. Like this one.
The answer will be maybe. And since it has nothing to do with the release features and won't aid new Steam players' qol, the chances of it happening are very low (but not zero).
The next time this bug will be part of development will be when ethics get replaced with something more flexible. Might even be during Mythgen I guess.
Post by: Doorkeeper on October 29, 2019, 10:14:03 pm
Will butchering sentient corpse bug solved in Villains Update?
This bug is already reported on the bug tracker (1180 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1180) or 9171 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171)). It's not a high priority for this update.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on October 30, 2019, 12:15:09 am
Quote from: Toady
will also allow the new w.g. features like divorce and multiple lovers to happen in fort mode.
Does this mean that dwarves can remarry and continue having children?
For that matter, will it be possible for people to adopt babies if their mother dies? Because this is one of the saddest things to watch in a game. I had one dwarf get depressed and just left her baby crawling around outside, calling, "Mama!..." It tears me up a bit thinking about it. For reals.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 30, 2019, 12:19:02 am
First part yes. That's what it does. Read the devblog for stories of divorce, remarriage and multiple lovers. Age of marriage was also improved so it's not +-10 years any more but something more complex.Quote from: Toadywill also allow the new w.g. features like divorce and multiple lovers to happen in fort mode.
Does this mean that dwarves can remarry and continue having children?
For that matter, will it be possible for people to adopt babies if their mother dies? Because this is one of the saddest things to watch in a game. I had one dwarf get depressed and just left her baby crawling around outside, calling, "Mama!..." It tears me up a bit thinking about it. For reals.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 30, 2019, 03:31:29 am
With "something more complex" being that the older party has to be within 10 years of age of the younger, or within 1½ the age of the younger, whichever is greater. Thus, a 400 year old elf will be able to marry a 600 year old one, while a 12 year old dorf is able to marry a 22 year old one (i.e. the same as before).First part yes. That's what it does. Read the devblog for stories of divorce, remarriage and multiple lovers. Age of marriage was also improved so it's not +-10 years any more but something more complex.Quote from: Toadywill also allow the new w.g. features like divorce and multiple lovers to happen in fort mode.
Does this mean that dwarves can remarry and continue having children?
For that matter, will it be possible for people to adopt babies if their mother dies? Because this is one of the saddest things to watch in a game. I had one dwarf get depressed and just left her baby crawling around outside, calling, "Mama!..." It tears me up a bit thinking about it. For reals.
Post by: therahedwig on October 30, 2019, 06:23:34 am
Yeah, I know, I posted in the thread already. I was more wondering if alongside the new stressors there are also new destressors, instead of only balancing the existing stress.Is there any kind of balancing in terms of destressors you guys are planning?
Looks like they're planning to tackle it sooner rather than later. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174931.msg8047476#msg8047476
Post by: DG on October 30, 2019, 06:56:36 am
==== Edit
Quote from: Toady One devblog 30/10/2019
Next up here will be the appointment of priests, often following petitions from (a sufficient number of) worshippers.
In the first iteration, will priests have duties they perform or is it limited to satisfying worshipers by occupying the position?
Post by: kontako on October 31, 2019, 05:17:44 pm
It was mentioned in the steam dev-blog:
"If you use the arrest power in a ridiculous fashion, you'll see your fort turn against you, whether there's a villain there or not"
Could you expand on this?
Assuming it creates some hostility between dwarves which are 'loyalists' and others which rebel, if said rebels win do we continue to control the fortress under their government?
Post by: Mort Stroodle on October 31, 2019, 06:13:06 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on November 01, 2019, 02:16:07 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 01, 2019, 02:28:06 am
Do villainous infiltrator agents show up as visitors or also as migrants?
If they do show up as migrants, please take a look at bug 0010490 before release. It's going to end up with a lot of innocent dwarves killed if spies for your own civ insist on retaining their somewhat loose disguises when they migrate to your fortress.
Who is the traitor? The guy with the false name and occupation of "criminal" of course! What, he was a war hero? Spied for decades, disguised as a criminal deep in the Dark Pits? Oops. Should have mentioned that before applying magma. Oh well.
Post by: falcc on November 02, 2019, 10:26:40 am
Is it possible, theoretically, to talk your way all the way up an organizational chart, befriending every member, so as to convince them all to leave you alone?
How much harder is it now to convince every ruler that peace is good?
Are people less likely to listen to value arguments of people they don't like? Can talking people around through the verbal "fights" make them more receptive to value changes as well?
Post by: Nopenope on November 02, 2019, 04:57:30 pm
Formally, is there any difference between a member of your party and a regular companion? If yes, is there any way to move one from the other?
Can you acquire pets beyond your starting party?
Are adventurer villainy and fortress villainy still on the table? What kind of plots are we expected to be able to carry out?
Do pilgrims physically move around to holy cities post world-gen?
Is your fort able to become a holy city? (For instance, if you're one of two cities with a religion and one gets razed) Can religions, prophets and persecutions spontaneously arise in your fortress?
Can pilgrims arrive in your fort if you have a shrine?
Can your fort be a host to a holy relic (e.g. if you host a religion's high priest)?
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 02, 2019, 05:11:12 pm
- This whole 1½ year extra arc is about Villainy (well, a number of months in the beginning was about finishing the Raiding stuff, before it was turned into an arc), with the dev logs indicating the adventure part is mostly implemented and the fortress part has just begun, with some work back-and-forth currently.
- Pilgrims can come to visit your fortress now as soon as you have a temple dedicated to their god. It's unlikely that will be ripped out... As far as I understand only "armies" move about the world as such, with migrants and visitors teleporting/slipping by unnoticed.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 02, 2019, 11:02:44 pm
- According to dev logs, you can control companions but not other party members.I assume it means "adventurers being villains" which is done, and "fortresses being villains(?) which isn't and was never in the plans.
- This whole 1½ year extra arc is about Villainy (well, a number of months in the beginning was about finishing the Raiding stuff, before it was turned into an arc), with the dev logs indicating the adventure part is mostly implemented and the fortress part has just begun, with some work back-and-forth currently.
- Pilgrims can come to visit your fortress now as soon as you have a temple dedicated to their god. It's unlikely that will be ripped out... As far as I understand only "armies" move about the world as such, with migrants and visitors teleporting/slipping by unnoticed.
Incidentally I imagine" because ambushing is a buggy mess" would be a reasonable answer to the ambusber tag. It's not like ambushing in the earlier versions of the game where small groups would attack before major sieges begin. It's just invisible sieges right now (and feels very incomplete).
I mean, elves still have it but you don't have to put up with a hundreds strong elven ambush spamming ambush announcements very often.
Post by: Khalvin on November 03, 2019, 04:48:48 am
Will we see social events like marriages and funerals in Temples like we see spontaneous Performances in Taverns?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 03, 2019, 05:18:05 am
Will Museums, Sculpture Gardens, and Tombs/Memorial Halls eventually operate in the same system as the Taverns, Libraries, and Temples?Museums and sculpture gardens operate right now as part of taverns, libraries and temples. Push l to assign them to a location. My tavern is usually a sprawling multi-layer pleasure palace of dance areas, dining rooms, sculpture gardens and museums (and booze) which the dorfs happily spread themselves out across.
Will we see social events like marriages and funerals in Temples like we see spontaneous Performances in Taverns?
And spontaneous performances happen in temples right now (but very rarely).
Post by: Nopenope on November 03, 2019, 10:13:45 am
"fortresses being villains(?) which isn't and was never in the plans.
From the 05/29/2019 devlog:
Quote
Finally, with all the core mechanics and tweaks in place, we hit the fortress mode changes: relationship improvements sparked by the villain upgrade, villains against the fort, any plotting that you yourself can do as a fort (either as counter-espionage or more actively), and any other bits from religions, mercenaries, etc. that make it over, though these last are undecided.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 03, 2019, 01:23:11 pm
Ah, counter-espionage is working against villains. Doubt you'll have the opportunity to kidnap the demon villains. But we'll see."fortresses being villains(?) which isn't and was never in the plans.
From the 05/29/2019 devlog:QuoteFinally, with all the core mechanics and tweaks in place, we hit the fortress mode changes: relationship improvements sparked by the villain upgrade, villains against the fort, any plotting that you yourself can do as a fort (either as counter-espionage or more actively), and any other bits from religions, mercenaries, etc. that make it over, though these last are undecided.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 03, 2019, 02:44:54 pm
With the correct configuration of ethics, will modders have the ability to disband the penalty/aggressively pursue conviction for incorrectly or misjudged arrests, or will the multiple factors like attitudes to justice affect this no matter which typical or tweaked entity civilization you will play?
Im just thinking of running a Dwarven (or other modded race) North Korea, unscrupulous and unquestioning law enforcement suppression where crafting a unfavorable likeness of the supreme leader has them thown into the jail and forgotten about.
Post by: Toady One on November 03, 2019, 04:40:09 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorf
So... if i flooded my civilization with elven propaganda redistributed by a trained scribe id probably have a lot of animal people turn up into the civ (not nessecarily fort, unless somehow it prompts a lot of sanctuary petitions) within 200 years? Neat. Elsewise its just something to configure with in modding in mind.
Doesn't seem to affect generated animalpeople all that much, you often have (suprisingly often carnivorous, i wonder if there's a connection) -people like saltwater crocodile men appear around dark towers, though that might be due to goblins being free to settle and border those regions.
The pop joining has never worked post w.g. generally, as far as I remember, so it wouldn't work yet.
Quote from: prawn
Any plans to implement martial arts/body enhancing magical tags? I.e. bone enhancing, skin hardening, super speed? If so, would these spells be passed down in monasteries or kept down on paper?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8032986#msg8032986
Ha, yeah, we're not sure timeline-wise, but it might just be another spell-casting method as far as the generator is concerned, and some of our earlier examples worked that way, so I wouldn't be surprised. Once stuff like that goes in, the options for how it is passed down would cover the same breadth as other types.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWhile conversation may be a safer option than beating someone into submission, will excessive enquiring raise suspicion and eventual retaliation from villains too?Quote from: ZM5Will adventurers get a negative reputation for accosting people too much with intimidation for no reason?
On that subject, will villains and their agents also get suspicious if they catch wind of the player questioning people around town?
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8034157#msg8034157
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8034401#msg8034401
Yeah, even non-violent options can lead back to you, but it might be slower, or not happen at all, if you are effective. It all depends on the kind of rumor that is generated - if you learn something, and no rumor is generated, it won't go up the chain, but non-intimidation can still generate rumors sometimes. For instance, if you ask a question and fail a persuasion check, you are now, possibly, "asking questions."
And for negative reputation, yeah, being a bully is a thing, though we want to be a little careful about context if we can. As you say, the "no reason" cases are worse, and we need to catch those (similar to arresting anybody you want in fort mode.)
Quote from: therahedwig
Will it be possible for Villains to trick someone into performing tasks for them? So for example, a villain histfig asking the player to bring artifact a to point b, without the player knowing the whole thing is sorta illegal? Or do you think that's going to have to wait till a later release?
I don't think that sort of thing will happen yet. All of the villain asks are pretty clear-cut in terms of whether they'd be illegal or not.
Quote from: Asi Kom, Legendary Scribe
Will we be able to send out our own spies to neighboring civilizations in order to gather information about other civs and their intentions in fortress mode? Not in an aggressive manner I mean, but in a "I like to know what's going on to keep the peace" kind of way
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8034831#msg8034831
Yeah, it's not 100% settled even at this point where the investigation infrastructure will end up, and how extensive off-site investigations will need to be. But in order to get up the villain chains, you'll need to have some non-hostile off-site options, and allowing mid-level figures like barons to have "keeper of the seal" position-led espionage/counter-espionage operations is also becoming more proper, given the world gen structures we have. So we have some options, and it'll be led by what ends up being the most core and fun and doable for countering what the villains do in the forts.
Quote from: Death Dragon
"Bribes, reputation, presented evidence and the new relationship variables 'loyalty', 'trust/distrust', 'fear', 'love/hate', and 'respect' are all in the mix."
1 Does the player have any way to change the 'loyalty', 'trust/distrust', 'fear', 'love/hate', 'respect' values an NPC has to them or are we stuck with the default values? I could see it be possible to increase the fear and maybe respect values, but what about the other stuff?
2 Would reciting a poem exceptionally well make an NPC respect us more and thus more likely to share secret information with us?
3 Will we be able to use coins to bribe people even though there is no economy?
4 If we are able to bribe people with money, will this money then be added to that hist fig's "account" or are the accounts still just world gen only for now?
For adventure mode, yeah, these values are all subject to change, between the NPC and your adventurer, and it is important to change them to advance an interrogation/etc. Actions like flattery can increase trust but decrease respect, for example, depending on the personality of the NPC. Coins are on the table, though yeah, the relationship between "account" and real coins is an iffy one currently and will likely be very weird -- accounts *do* work post w.g., for the various villainly plots, but they don't automatically get turned into a giant coin sack. I'm not sure about poems, ha ha -- of course they should be, for certain NPCs, but it'll take us a while to hit all the rep change points/etc.
For fort mode of course, it's more complicated since there are all sorts of people running around, and we're still seeing how that'll turn out.
Quote from: squamous
1. Given that vampires will be getting such an overhaul come next update, can we expect something like being able to ask for/demand blood and gain it in a non-violent/non-lethal fashion, or will NPCs continue to be murderous? On that note, is there a way to create vampires which need to feed on blood, but don't have the BLOODSUCKER tag? I've tried experimenting with just using [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED] but it didn't seem to work.
2. I've noticed that sometimes when I put an adventurer in cities, they'll run into asterisks which will turn out to be things like crocodiles and cave dragons in the streets. Are these LARGE_PREDATOR type animals conducting raids on the town or do they live in the sewers or something and come out to cause mischief?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8037842#msg8037842
squamous (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8037904#msg8037904
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8038288#msg8038288
Like, vampires in the fort? I'm not sure we'll get to immortality pacts etc. happening right in your fort, though they are still on the table and we have the framework for it now because of the w.g. work on them. The BLOODSUCKER tag is one of those annoying tags that has bundled in too much logic. I'm not sure when I'll get a chance, but it should be broken up.
Ha ha, I have no idea about these predators... there are the named historical animals, and it might not be putting them back in their sewer homes correctly, because of their historical status? That seems possible, but bugs can do all sorts of things, and yeah, as Untrustedlife says, depending on exactly what it was doing, it might have wandered from a nearby predator lair - this would be the least buggy option; it's only somewhat inappropriate because the game doesn't yet recognize that the predator being in a town would be more of an event.
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Quote from: Enemy postWhat happens if a necromancer tries to incorporate a modded creature with custom bodyparts into one of their hybrid creatures?Quote from: voliolI guess it is interesting that the word "humanoid" is used. Are the "humanoid" necromancer experiments actually humanoids, made from any captured creature with the right body plan (uses one of the HUMANOID body tokens, or has the right amount of stance/grasp parts), including livestock that do? Or is it just a shorthand for an INTELLIGENT/CAN_LEARN creature, in which case "humanoid" experiments from snakeman and centaur civilizations would not end up truly humanoid?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8038410#msg8038410
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8038465#msg8038465
Yeah, generally people should not get too enthusiastic about the exact composition of the experiments -- we have not remotely attempted the "centaur" or other problems yet. Those will require much more dedicated work than what we threw together here. So the system can handle whatever, but it won't be super reflective of what you give it.
'Humanoids' require two stance points and also learns, I think? It allows wiggle room on the number of graspers and legs in the input, but the output is humanoid in shape, for the smart ones. So there's some leaning on 'learns' and the body plan, in the most boring possible way. It won't generally try to make intelligent creatures with interesting body plans. DF has been bad at dealing with fliers and those without grasps etc., when trying to incorporate them into civs and especially forts. We'll have to tackle that later when it comes up as a more core issue (the weird myth slider worlds seems like a good candidate time, but we'll have to see.)
Quote from: Bydth
Will the activities of a player fort influence its post-retire activities, such as a fort with a powerhouse glass industry continuing to export glass objects? Will forts that produced lots of high-quality weapons and armor give equipment level bonuses to armies/mercenary groups recruited/based in that fort?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8039058#msg8039058
Yeah, as Bumber says, the later economy additions will help. We just don't have enough infrastructure to quantify that stuff now -- post w.g. sites of all kinds don't have economies/production at all, so there's nothing to do yet.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
For the Myth & Magic arc, would I be correct in thinking that spheres will be the underlying general mechanic behind magic under which procedurally generated world-specific systems operate, rather than being an esoteric world-specific system in its own right?
Do you conceive of magical effects combining spheres, or will reach magical effect require only one sphere to use? For instance, would you need to or be able to combine a fire and a telekinetic sphere 8n order to cast a fireball spell (i.e one sphere to make the fire, another to move it)?
Will every game object be attached to a sphere and vice versa, for mechanical purposes? I'm thinking of elemental rock-paper-scissors, so you could smash a stone forgotten beast with a water effect but not a lightning effect, for instance. With so many spheres and game objects/actors, would this be impractical or would it simplify working out how magical effects interact with the world?
To what extent do you already have satisfactory physical processes implemented in the game for marrying up to spell effects? For example, fire, heat, etc.
Is there a possibility that the Myth and Magic release will lead to the inclusion of ambient light levels in fort mode? Light and darkness are such important fantasy staples that it would seem like a missed opportunity for them to not be included.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8039627#msg8039627
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8039701#msg8039701
Yeah, the spheres are basically just a recognition that there are real world or real worldish concepts the game needs to understand as primitives, and that these can be mashed up with myths in various satisfying ways (a more advanced version of the way that spheres are used for the deities' domains currently.) They aren't their own esoteric magic system.
Combinations/attachments are complicated, because, as concept place-holders, a sphere could be introduced to cover any case, and we already see this -- some existing systems in other games see magma for instance as a "fire + earth" effect, where we could do that or just use the existing volcano sphere, or even add a new magma sphere (that's certainly a fair enough domain for a deity - specificity has never been an issue with the real world deity domains, but we do want to keep a somewhat manageable list of concepts.) We'll likely have to deal with multiple cases that produce the same effects. This is good in the end, because it allows us to have more diverse underpinnings to our systems. 50 different ways to produce a fireball would be a great thing, among different generated settings (and many settings without fireballs, naturally.) Some of our systems in side projects/planning notes have been very fiddly, where the fire + telekinetic etc. component was specified down to a ~5 step process requiring multiple skills (we set up Tales Foretold this way intentionally, with the typical spells being the hardest to pull off, with some odder effects as the base ones), etc., whereas others were just like "fireball." This is all fine as long as it fits with the myths etc., and works with a friendly enough interface/implementation etc.
The players can judge as well as I where we already have satisfactory processes. Obviously we are farther along with heat and fire and water than we are with, say, electricity. Or light/darkness, as you mention. There are enough missing basic systems that I'm not going to be able to promise one over the other at this point.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
What if you want to raise a dismembered corpse as a lieutenant? Can you raise an intelligent undead from both a severed head and its headless body? Would they share a soul or have two separate new souls, or is this just not possible?
For that matter, could you raise your own severed hand, for instance, as an intelligent undead? If your original body was then decapitated, could your severed hand then raise your body and head? This is assuming that the raised parts retain knowledge of life and death.
Is there already a mechanism in place for different bodies sharing a soul, and if not, do you plan to implement it? Either in the short term, or as part of Myth and Magic, do you intend to implement a mechanism whereby souls can be copied or cloned, so that they retain the original's memories and personality but thereafter grow and change as individuals?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8041302#msg8041302
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8041346#msg8041346
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8041348#msg8041348
The lieutenants require the 'fit for resurrection' style bodies, so they need to be more intact, and there shouldn't be issues with having shared souls. Though we start to get into weird situations at some point with limb regrowth and all that, perhaps, at some point. We might still be safe unless two central body parts (like the upper body) can be created. And once we recognize the head as somehow being 'more' important than the body (due to brains, etc.), then we'll be back in trouble again, ha ha. But at least it is harder to do by accident.
We haven't done anything for the short term, but copying souls would be fairly straightforward. Doing a shared soul in two different bodies is more difficult, in terms of how goals and things work. This is something that needs to be tackled in the deity-avatar sense, for those kinds of situations, and there are various ways to go about it. Sometimes the multiple avatars don't know they are both aspects of the same deity (or whatever), but that's not the hard case. Actually having goal structures etc. that are cohabitating with a shared skill/etc. set probably requires splitting the soul into pieces. Which we were more-or-less planning to do, for metaphysical reasons as much as anything - even without the multi/sharing setups, having spells that can pop out and move about soul chunks is fun. However, there isn't a canonical way to systematize soul chunks. The best we can probably do is break them into the smallest coherent pieces we can think of, and then have an artificial structure living on top of that that groups them this way one time, this way another. So in one universe you might have (personality-skills) + (memories), and another might have (personality-memories) + (skills), in two different "two soul chunk" setups. But we'll see. This might not happen on the first pass if we don't have good mileage to get out of it, compared to some of the big ticket items.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I forget if it was asked before, but if you play your adventurer as a villain and indulge in bribary, kidnapping and general intimidation, what happens on retire? Does the adventurer revert to whatever their standard values and goals were (and therefore possibly quit being villainous altogether), or will they remember that they have a gang and carry on being bad, possibly even expanding their networks?
Is it possible to end up having to track down your ex-adventurers and will they start leaving evidence all over the place for you to follow? Or is the system not going to be that robust just yet
I haven't gotten there yet, but given how the data structures work, I think the default behavior is that it will continue. They'll have plots and subordinates (just to get those plots to work), and that'll lead to more activity. The specific plots hang under umbrella plots that encompass larger goals, and once these exist, they aren't eliminated based on value/goal checks or anything. In the longer run, it'd be nice for things to be coherent, and for the game to understand what kind of 'villain' you intend to be (especially since a plot could just be the means to an end in a very specific situation), but currently, I think it assumes you are a lifelong participant in scheming.
And then... yeah, i guess investigations of ex-advs might work? All around? That'd be nice. The plots you do yourself, while playing, might not leave the same sort of data (I'm not sure yet, but there will be a lot of overlap), but anything that happens after would be subject to all the same systems.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Will we be able to use physical coercion and fear in lieu of intimidation checks? Such as, say, breaking fingers, or slaughtering all their mates in front of them? Does reputation count in intimidation checks? What about physical size and brawniness?
The physical attributes matter, as modifiers for the skill check, but it doesn't use creature-based sizes currently. We'd considered it, and it's mostly appropriate, though it's such a weirdly skill-based game still, in terms of who would win, that it's not entirely proper to do it based on physicality. Hopefully it'll be transparent enough, in any case.
There are many types of fear in the game now. We haven't merged them all yet, but we're hoping to get it behaving consistently, in which case, yeah, purely action-based intimidation would work.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Another question about alliances, as I realised the second part of my question on them back in May wasn't clarified (answer focused on who people would form alliances against).
Which civs will form alliances with each other? And, for modding reference, how is this determined? Does it take into account Babysnatcher/Item_Thief tags, current states of war, ethics?
I play with a mod which uses these tags to divide up the many different civs in my world so would be nice to know who's likely to be teaming up when the zombie apocalypse strikes.
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8044283#msg8044283
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8044336#msg8044336
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8044548#msg8044548
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8044783#msg8044783
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8044943#msg8044943
They don't use the babysnatcher etc. tags. They use the kill neutral "required" response, as this is meant to preclude diplomacy. We'd like to get beyond that at some point (they already trade, even if it's supposed to be kinda under the table), but it didn't come up as the alliances were working well already. Only people that don't kill neutrals will ally, and those can all ally, provided they can communicate with each other (intelligent/speaks, not 'utterances'), and they aren't currently warring. I'm not sure if that last bit will stay - it seems to work well enough now, and it's nice to allow war-causing villains to shake things up even in the face of gobs/undead, but the undead snowball is also worth stopping an elf-dwarf war over. I might need to smear that out to some halfway point. But currently, they must be at peace to ally.
Quote from: Broms
A question about these "accounts" historical figures and mercenary groups and the like have now. Are there any plans to incorporate those into fortress mode? If so, would there be an option to "pay coin" to a mercenary company to assassinate or capture someone?
Not currently. We aren't to the mercenary company vs. fort part yet, and we don't have the fort hiring anybody either, when they can just use squads. Of course, there are reasons you'd want to use somebody else, especially if your fort is wealthy, but we haven't gotten into the economy issues again there.
Post by: Toady One on November 03, 2019, 04:40:26 pm
Quote from: tpssurvivor
Question about relationships.
As for now, if I'm not mistaken the dwarves only seem to build relationship with others when they are at a meeting hall or tavern, under the "Socialize" job. With the upcoming villain update and the rewrite of social interactions, will dwarves (or whatever race you are playing fort mode) be able to "chit chat" or interact with others while doing other stuff? (e.g. Hauling objects; building stuff; comming across others while going somewhere; While they raid sites; Train in the squads).
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8045390#msg8045390
Generally, the socialization bugs/issues are a whole topic, and we've collected various matter on that and will do something there. Some of it will come with the current relationship rewrite, and some of it will come when we handle the stress/etc. stuff, which relates more to the pre-Steam release cleanup. We haven't decided yet how the latter is going to be structured (between what happens with the actual Steam release, and what happens in the bug-fix period before we start doing graphics coding and all that.)
Quote from: Eric Blank
Latest devlog (10/24/2019) again mentions the possibility of losing because officials are corrupted. Do you intend for that to be a hard "game over" type lose? For instance, I could still run the fort if those corrupted officials stick to only stealing away things occasionally but still follow my orders re; posting militia to keep goblins out. Say, they're only ignoring part of my orders, those that are counter to their own objectives. That would still be playable, theyd basically just be slightly more obstinate than usual.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8045911#msg8045911
Yeah, as PatrikLundell says, we're not quite settled on this yet, but we are definitely trying to avoid a hard "game over" in all situations, no matter how screwed up they get, at least to the point where you have one last hurrah (should you want to give it a shot - you could just retire.) People that are stealing stuff etc. will follow your orders generally. When they aren't, those'll be the times they are literally moving an artifact around, and if you see that with your own eyes, you should just be able to arrest them and handle it (without being penalized, since you'll know what to ask about - this is sort of a weird unavoidable meta-game aspect to this.)
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
I know the adventure mode party work for this release is more-or-less done, but here's something I never thought to ask that just occurred to me:
Are the pets in custom adventuring parties directly controllable? Or are they restricted to just following the P.C.s?
Pets are not directly controllable.
Quote from: Death Dragon
Can you explain what you meant with:
"The first part was to add some new per-character variables to every conversation - how much a person wants to stay, whether they are pleased with things, and how confident/dominant/composed they are feeling"
Does that maybe mean there will be less "it was inevitable/ it is terrifying" and more actual emotion in people's reactions while talking?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047870#msg8047870
Ha ha, yeah, sorry, therahedwig is correct in that a lot of that placeholder text is based on larger structural issues. We're just doing some basic conversation flow metering to make sure basic exploits won't be possible during interrogations etc., and to give the conversations slightly better feelings/exposition based on relationship status.
Quote from: Weirdsound
With artifact theft plots coming to Fortress Mode, will we get more options on how we store, protect, manage and/or display our artifacts? Right now it is easy to choose where in the fortress your artifact bed or mechanism lives, but a pain in the ass to get an artifact sock or toy axe exactly where you want it.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047870#msg8047870
Yeah - unless there's a bug I'm missing, therahedwig is correct that we've relatively recently corrected this by allowing you to use a pedestal or display case to get them exactly where you want them, and the witness/etc. system should make guards pretty effective even against citizen-thieves, if the location isn't too open.
Quote from: therahedwig
So, I know creatures with a nature loving trait get a happy thought from seeing an animal, but do you think you have the time to let dwarves pet their animals? In general, a key characteristic of villains is that they cause a lot of stress in others. Is there any kind of balancing in terms of destressors you guys are planning?
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047979#msg8047979
therahedwig (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8048112#msg8048112
The adventurer party was petting the pets (in particular, when they weren't under player control), so as far as I know, dwarves are on the petting train already. However, it might not be visible anywhere in reports, and there isn't an associated thought, as I recall. So this could be brought into line with pet 'chat', perhaps.
There isn't a particular anti-villain stress plan, but as noted, the whole thing is up for a larger look.
Quote from: Beag
2. You mentioned modifiers such as loyalty and love in how interrogation will work, does this mean our adventurers will finally be able to have friends and romantic interests to sate their needs for such things since those modifiers imply such relations will be possible?
3. With how easy it is to just loot valuables from warehouses in adventure mode in mind how effective do you think bribing NPCs to talk will be? I ask this as less scrupulous adventurers can easily procure a supply of goods to bribe people with from warehouses.
4. If our adventurer's use violence in interrogation in a town and word got out of that would they be penalized with a violent reputation still?
(note: 1. appears above, since it fit in with a another question)
2. Nope!
3. Generally, it's just not sensible yet and won't be -- the possessions are still not secured and we're not going to balance against that. We'll need to get proper guarding and a justice system at some point.
4. Yeah. Violence continues to be treated as a conflict incident in the same way as usual, with the same rep modifiers.
Quote from: DerMeister
Will butchering sentient corpse bug solved in Villains Update?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047987#msg8047987
DoorKeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047990#msg8047990
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Does this mean that dwarves can remarry and continue having children?
For that matter, will it be possible for people to adopt babies if their mother dies? Because this is one of the saddest things to watch in a game. I had one dwarf get depressed and just left her baby crawling around outside, calling, "Mama!..." It tears me up a bit thinking about it. For reals.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8048008#msg8048008
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8048055#msg8048055
Yeah, we haven't implemented it yet, but they should be able to remarry by the time the release is up.
We haven't done the adoption bit, but well, it's been on the radar for years, like a lot of things.
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Quote from: DGIn the first iteration, will priests have duties they perform or is it limited to satisfying worshipers by occupying the position?Quote from: Beag1. How much more do you think you will develop organizations such as religious orders, merchant companies and mercenary companies before the next release? To clarify will they have activities they do besides simply existing? And if so would these activities be seen in fortress mode only or also in adventure mode to some degree?
It depends - the release date is going to be determined by finishing the core villain stuff, and the rest will be done alongside with some dedicated time we are setting aside (Mondays, currently.) The release will balloon forever if we don't put some dampers on it, but we know a lot of people are more excited about this side of things, so we'll be adding little independent religion/guild/etc. pieces, and we'll get to some amount. Ideally, all pieces of the release could work this way, incrementally, but villains are really a tangle, and they don't work without a certain amount of completion. For religions, guilds, mercs, and merchants, we're just going to go on a log-by-log basis now rather than promising anything beforehand.
Quote from: kontako
It was mentioned in the steam dev-blog:
"If you use the arrest power in a ridiculous fashion, you'll see your fort turn against you, whether there's a villain there or not"
Could you expand on this?
Assuming it creates some hostility between dwarves which are 'loyalists' and others which rebel, if said rebels win do we continue to control the fortress under their government?
Ha ha, yeah, it'll depend a lot on what the against-villain implementation ends up being. We've changed our mind a few times on that and it'll just get hashed out when we get there. Part of the issue is the possibility of tying it into continuing to play if you, for instance, lose in a siege vs. the goblins or otherwise - a rebellion might also be possible there (not saying we'll get to that this time, but we need to think about it.) When you're closer to a civil war state, it calls into question our whole "official will of the fortress" model for what the player is. Perhaps you'll need to pick a side, perhaps you'll just be the side that wins (and therefore perhaps have less control over what the sides do), we're still thinking about it.
Quote from: Mort Stroodle
Kobolds and snatchers always get stopped from stealing anything because someone immediately sees them and they leave or get killed. Will villains have some more sneaky way to steal stuff and do their dirty work? What's to stop someone from seeing the thief the moment they walk through a main hallway with artifact in tow, rendering them a hostile and initiating a great dwarven dogpile? If you've got some other system in mind for sneaky thievery, will kobolds and snatchers be able to make use of it?
A kobold is a kobold, while a turned fortress citizen could presumably conceal a smaller artifact and not be noticed, or might be noticed but not stopped (just noted for a witness report.) In the case where the citizen isn't leaving the map, they'll still need to do a handoff to somebody that is leaving the map, and this is also witness/stop worthy, but a little easier to control than an entire sneak-path is for the kobold. So, hopefully it'll be more interesting, and still somewhat stoppable (for instance, maybe a citizen taking an artifact on a pedestal is always considered 'theft' if there isn't a job attached -- that's still more manageable for a theft AI than an entire sneak-path, and is the kind of thing we're trying.)
Quote from: Death Dragon
Do villainous infiltrator agents show up as visitors or also as migrants?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8049206#msg8049206
Generally, we're going to try it both ways. Coming as a migrant puts the agent under your control, since a citizen is bound to stay for years, so it's a cost the villain is paying (they can't use the agent elsewhere unless you expel them), though it does give them some advantages in that they are a little harder to spot and don't have to make a petition to stay at first.
SD: Ha ha, okay, I'll check it out.
Quote from: falcc
Can a royal official that trusts you get you access to talk to the king, now that they can trust and be verbally sparred?
Is it possible, theoretically, to talk your way all the way up an organizational chart, befriending every member, so as to convince them all to leave you alone?
How much harder is it now to convince every ruler that peace is good?
Are people less likely to listen to value arguments of people they don't like? Can talking people around through the verbal "fights" make them more receptive to value changes as well?
Access is complicated, currently, in that it's really important in w.g., but we haven't committed to giving it a shot in adv mode since it'll be tricky to pull off, requiring new guard systems and so forth. But once we have that, that'll be the idea, working your way inward. But the physical space needs to be controlled much better for it to be meaningful - conversational controls (like refusing to talk) only work to some extent, especially vs. intimidation etc.
Befriending everybody: After you've been targeted in some way? The main reason to need to do this in adv mode would be because you've drawn attention to yourself by aggressively acting counter to their interests. You don't really get on their radar as an adventurer otherwise, unless you have an artifact or something maybe. So you'd sort of have to work yourself all the way back from being hated, I guess, and it's not something I've focused on, canceling plots midstream. So I'd need to do a bit more, and it's sort of an edge case.
Without the access changes, philosophical debate with rulers hasn't really changed much. The new patience stuff should find its way out that far, which would make it a little harder, and yeah, that would also depend on the more permanent relationship traits. Just because there are lots of them, the new conversation/relationship variables won't see a lot of action out in older conversation options, but the basic patience meter should have some impact.
Quote from: Nopenope
Why did you remove the AMBUSHER token from goblin civilizations?
Formally, is there any difference between a member of your party and a regular companion? If yes, is there any way to move one from the other?
Can you acquire pets beyond your starting party?
Are adventurer villainy and fortress villainy still on the table? What kind of plots are we expected to be able to carry out?
Do pilgrims physically move around to holy cities post world-gen?
Is your fort able to become a holy city? (For instance, if you're one of two cities with a religion and one gets razed) Can religions, prophets and persecutions spontaneously arise in your fortress?
Can pilgrims arrive in your fort if you have a shrine?
Can your fort be a host to a holy relic (e.g. if you host a religion's high priest)?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8049984#msg8049984
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050068#msg8050068
Nopenope (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050216#msg8050216
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050307#msg8050307
Unless somebody finds a post, the AMBUSHER/goblin thing is lost to time. I just don't remember. Certainly both goblins and humans should be a bit more versatile, and maybe we'll see some of that when we finally take a look at sieges, whenever that happens.
Yeah, party members can be controlled by swapping and in the tactical mode, whereas regular companions always act under computer control. We don't have a way to promote or demote them from those statuses yet - we were considering something like 100% loyalty if you wanted to do a party promote, but that's still a pretty big step. (at the same time, if, eventually, you'll be able to be any historical figure, it's not that big a step - it's more what you should be able to do in a given game, without require a retire, to avoid easy exploits and oddness.) On the demotion side, we still need to handle violence between party members (which is generally a player issue) - not sure what'll go on with demotion there, if anything - these situations would either be less extreme (the desired sparring, for example) or more extreme (full companionship breakup, rather than party->companion demotion.)
I have not yet done anything with post-start pets, despite that being a goal of ours.
Yeah, adventure villainy is still on the table. We are feeling pressed for time, but it also remains fairly straightforward to add.
For the fort, it depends on how these anti-villain off-site actions play out -- you can already send a squad to destroy an entire town. Adding a targeted assassination/'arrest'(kidnap) won't be too difficult, especially since those already exist for villains. But we're going to start with on-site investigations and follow where that goes. Off-site stuff seems necessary for a satisfying resolution.
Pilgrims move physically, yeah -- even the ones that come to your fort path across the world map. I'm not sure what the comprehensive list of 'teleporters' is currently... migrants teleport, diplomats/liaisons teleport, merchant caravans coming to the fort teleport - the oldest calendar events. Are those the only ones left? All of the 'heroic' and religious and scholarly professions move as armies do (to the fort and otherwise), as do siegers/thieves now. Ah, beast attacks (mega/forgotten/etc.) are still world map teleporters -- mainly because the FBs live underground and underground travel is still annoying.
The pilgrims visit temples as usual.
We don't have a holy relic creator yet. These are usually body parts and possessions of priests, so it'll be on the table when the high priests go in, but as with all the features associated to organized religion in the fort, it'll be log-by-log and we'll see where it goes.
Quote from: Khalvin
Will Museums, Sculpture Gardens, and Tombs/Memorial Halls eventually operate in the same system as the Taverns, Libraries, and Temples?
Will we see social events like marriages and funerals in Temples like we see spontaneous Performances in Taverns?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050152#msg8050152
Yeah, as stated by Shonai_Dweller, these can be incorporated into the latter locations. However, I do think it'll be cool later to be able to raise other types of places to 'location' status. Certainly something recognized as a 'Tomb' or 'Museum' could have a temple in it, rather than the other way around. We may get to more with this when we get to the embark situation stuff, we'll have to see how that all shakes out. 'Sites' themselves could also use some reconceptualizing, as far as the purposes go, and in various other ways, concerning how they are nested and so forth, at which point the site/location boundary blurs.
We'd like to do more with ceremonies of various kinds, but we aren't there yet.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
With the correct configuration of ethics, will modders have the ability to disband the penalty/aggressively pursue conviction for incorrectly or misjudged arrests, or will the multiple factors like attitudes to justice affect this no matter which typical or tweaked entity civilization you will play?
Modding values for the civ should have an impact on it, yeah, since you are already able to squelch things like people caring about wrongful convictions. There's the problem of value randomization for individuals, which would lead to a few people still caring. You'd also have to mod personality trait ranges to get rid of some of the other negative emotions, though.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on November 03, 2019, 08:02:32 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 03, 2019, 08:18:02 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 03, 2019, 08:35:13 pm
Will be very fun to see how mods featuring multiple-extra civs deal with alliances.
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 04, 2019, 02:03:24 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 04, 2019, 06:33:40 pm
With bribery now a thing, it seems to make sense to (re)introduce coins and the use thereof into fortress mode. Is there a specific reason you are not doing so, the development does not require the economy because the goods the dwarves buy with their money can simply be conjured into existence in the hands of visiting peddlers the same way the caravan's goods presently are? Is bribery going to be ruled out in fortress mode altogether or do you instead intent to have non-money based bribes by which actual goods are given to dwarves; that would seem to require gift-giving to exist normally so as to provide cover for this mechanic.Coins can be minted in fortress mode: They just don't have any use. As far as I understand the economy was disabled because it was a buggy mess that would require too much work to fix, and I would expect the work required hasn't decreased, while the Premium release probably has a rapidly approaching last release date.
Post by: Codyo on November 04, 2019, 08:08:36 pm
The blog mentions being able to "track down" and "send somebody after them" when it comes to villains. Does this mean sending one dwarf, or a military squad to capture a villain? If they can be captured, will they be escorted to one of your dungeon cells?
I'd find it really fun to capture my fortress's nemesis and put him on display somewhere. To ultimately give him some creative dwarven justice.
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 05, 2019, 05:15:35 am
With bribery now a thing, it seems to make sense to (re)introduce coins and the use thereof into fortress mode. Is there a specific reason you are not doing so, the development does not require the economy because the goods the dwarves buy with their money can simply be conjured into existence in the hands of visiting peddlers the same way the caravan's goods presently are? Is bribery going to be ruled out in fortress mode altogether or do you instead intent to have non-money based bribes by which actual goods are given to dwarves; that would seem to require gift-giving to exist normally so as to provide cover for this mechanic.Coins can be minted in fortress mode: They just don't have any use. As far as I understand the economy was disabled because it was a buggy mess that would require too much work to fix, and I would expect the work required hasn't decreased, while the Premium release probably has a rapidly approaching last release date.
We aren't talking about the economy, as coins and the use thereof is not the economy. The rest of the world could still remain economically static after world-gen and all the goods bought by our dwarves would simply magicked into existance the same way that caravan goods are. Coins actually work better than way because we do not have to worry about the external supply of goods for sale actually having a basis.
The main question though was how bribery is going to work in fortress mode without coins or if bribery is not going in for that reason.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 05, 2019, 06:17:29 am
I imagine they'd just use abstract accounts for now, same as everyone else. Would be odd to introduce coin exchange just to facilitate bribery. Still I guess we'll find out in a few weeks.With bribery now a thing, it seems to make sense to (re)introduce coins and the use thereof into fortress mode. Is there a specific reason you are not doing so, the development does not require the economy because the goods the dwarves buy with their money can simply be conjured into existence in the hands of visiting peddlers the same way the caravan's goods presently are? Is bribery going to be ruled out in fortress mode altogether or do you instead intent to have non-money based bribes by which actual goods are given to dwarves; that would seem to require gift-giving to exist normally so as to provide cover for this mechanic.Coins can be minted in fortress mode: They just don't have any use. As far as I understand the economy was disabled because it was a buggy mess that would require too much work to fix, and I would expect the work required hasn't decreased, while the Premium release probably has a rapidly approaching last release date.
We aren't talking about the economy, as coins and the use thereof is not the economy. The rest of the world could still remain economically static after world-gen and all the goods bought by our dwarves would simply magicked into existance the same way that caravan goods are. Coins actually work better than way because we do not have to worry about the external supply of goods for sale actually having a basis.
The main question though was how bribery is going to work in fortress mode without coins or if bribery is not going in for that reason.
Post by: recon1o6 on November 05, 2019, 02:12:35 pm
killed a forgotten beast made of rose gold this way- dropped 800 or so coins onto it and mangled it
Speaking of traps, will Villains be able to start making lairs in our fort if they corrupt including traps, documents etc?
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 05, 2019, 03:37:21 pm
I imagine they'd just use abstract accounts for now, same as everyone else. Would be odd to introduce coin exchange just to facilitate bribery. Still I guess we'll find out in a few weeks.
That would make sense at is actually all that money is good for, in the real world as in dwarf fortress. :)
In world-gen it works fine to use abstract accounts since it is all abstract anyway and it glosses over the cultural details. To have your dwarves bribed with imaginary wealth is rather strange/confusing so I really hope we do not go down that route. As I see it there are three decent options, introduce the use of money in fortress mode, prevent fortress mode dwarves from being bribed at all or introduce gift-giving in general as a cover for bribery in specific terms. I do not consider imaginary bribes a reasonable fourth option.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 05, 2019, 03:45:05 pm
Since only nobles are targets, it's easy to imagine a source of off-site wealth for bribes to fall into. "Promise of wealth on completion of mission" too. Still, not a big deal if bribery doesn't make it at all.I imagine they'd just use abstract accounts for now, same as everyone else. Would be odd to introduce coin exchange just to facilitate bribery. Still I guess we'll find out in a few weeks.
That would make sense at is actually all that money is good for, in the real world as in dwarf fortress. :)
In world-gen it works fine to use abstract accounts since it is all abstract anyway and it glosses over the cultural details. To have your dwarves bribed with imaginary wealth is rather strange/confusing so I really hope we do not go down that route. As I see it there are three decent options, introduce the use of money in fortress mode, prevent fortress mode dwarves from being bribed at all or introduce gift-giving in general as a cover for bribery in specific terms. I do not consider imaginary bribes a reasonable fourth option.
It doesn't really matter, nothing in the game is complete and we ignore abstractions in fortress mode every day. "Was bribed, abstractly" isn't any more immersion breaking than "was trapped in a wooden cage (dragon)".
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 05, 2019, 06:30:35 pm
Fortress mode question!
The blog mentions being able to "track down" and "send somebody after them" when it comes to villains. Does this mean sending one dwarf, or a military squad to capture a villain? If they can be captured, will they be escorted to one of your dungeon cells?
I'd find it really fun to capture my fortress's nemesis and put him on display somewhere. To ultimately give him some creative dwarven justice.
Carrying on this question: "Can people who have been marked for arrest prior to leaving be pursued across the world map? As in to locate the identity of a were beast or fleeing vampire/villian/opportunistic artifact theif and then return them to the fortress in custody or otherwise."
I guess the devil is in the detail to how informal/formal the accusation whether player set on meta-evidence they know (saw the werebeast transform into the identity they're chasing or discovered the vampire by some means) or deduced from your dwarves witness statements and interrogation are credible to use.
Post by: Su on November 06, 2019, 11:22:57 pm
targeted assassination/'arrest'(kidnap)
will we be seeing armies demand to have specific residents of the fort turned over to them / executed on the spot?
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 07, 2019, 03:57:19 am
targeted assassination/'arrest'(kidnap)
will we be seeing armies demand to have specific residents of the fort turned over to them / executed on the spot?
Lets hope that the Mountainhome can probably settle to be placated by putting the loyalty cascade leader on trial.
Post by: GoblinCookie on November 07, 2019, 02:39:15 pm
Since only nobles are targets, it's easy to imagine a source of off-site wealth for bribes to fall into. "Promise of wealth on completion of mission" too. Still, not a big deal if bribery doesn't make it at all.
It doesn't really matter, nothing in the game is complete and we ignore abstractions in fortress mode every day. "Was bribed, abstractly" isn't any more immersion breaking than "was trapped in a wooden cage (dragon)".
That may be so but these are not things that add to the game, they are things that are annoying and make the game look incomplete. Yes the game may be incomplete, but it is not an advantage for the game to look so. :)
Post by: Death Dragon on November 08, 2019, 07:16:27 am
Actions like flattery can increase trust but decrease respect, for example, depending on the personality of the NPC.Does that mean we can flatter and flirt with any random person in adventure mode?
Quote from: Toady One devlog 7th of november
You can fill these jobs yourself with any worshipper you like - we thought it would be too cruel to randomly take one of your best dwarves away.I think this is too bad. 1: Because I was hoping for entities like religious organisations and craftguilds to be factions inside your fort that you don't have direct control over. 2: The question of if the ruler gets to assign a religious head or not is a classic conflict in history. 3: Because I think it gives your dwarves additional personality when they themselves decide they want to apply for a position like this.
Does manually assigning someone to the priest position cause a negative thought in your religious population similar to how overruling the vote for mayor does when you just manually assign a new mayor, or does assigning a priest work similar to how assigning a barkeeper works with no strings attached?
I assume you're intending to put off the work on the power and influence of these uncontrollable factions inside your fortress to when you get into the status/laws/etc update after magic, right?
Post by: Vivalas on November 08, 2019, 01:47:28 pm
Is it possible that certain organized religions may petition to install their own priest instead when a petition is put through? This would possibly be an additional cool way in which outside agents can weasel their way into your fort, too. Also: what options or actions do villains in charge of a religious organization undertake to further their evil plans. Would an evil Cat Pope or whatever install agent priests all over in an attempt to start a cat uprising or some such ridiculous mischief?
Post by: therahedwig on November 08, 2019, 03:00:21 pm
Quote
we thought it would be too cruel to randomly take one of your best dwarves awaySo priesthood is a fulltime occupation? Do priests do anything in the fort(sermons, consolation, I guess other religious rituals are out of the question for now), or are they like barons and other nobles, in that they are not supossed to work but do because that nowork tag is currently bugged?
Post by: feelotraveller on November 08, 2019, 09:04:32 pm
I am sorta wondering that if decorations are what makes the temple, what makes the crafts-guild.
It would certainly be cool if there were differences, say only statues and engravings improving temple status and only fancy furniture for crafts-guild status, or whatever.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 10, 2019, 11:03:38 am
I am sorta wondering that if decorations are what makes the temple, what makes the crafts-guild.
It would certainly be cool if there were differences, say only statues and engravings improving temple status and only fancy furniture for crafts-guild status, or whatever.
Knocking over statues, even vague ones like frogs dancing and playing lutes is already a offense to the gods (in general, hah!) to be struck down by a curse specifically in shrine/temple areas if its toppled. Defilement of any religiously tied statue or statue tied to negative consequences or provokation (or you might say, a destroying a religious idol to eliminate their power) with such a system of recognising its relevancy is interesting but would probably only be half implemented.
Rather than just going along as saying that start hammering a protective seal or plaque/images of dieties on everything will protect you against that singular type of supernatural threat.
Quote
only fancy furniture for crafts-guild status, or whatever.
Besides the past, it's been tightly guarded what they actually do in dev log's so far, though fancy furniture would be maybe typical and slightly dissapointing since you can just remain a elective mayorship to mostly avoid pushy nobles as is. I think it probably won't be much in the way of demanding things, but we'll see if it ends up with exotic requests like the Dungeon Keeper (of old's) hardcoded demands to have chains ready to tame animals.
Post by: Criperum on November 10, 2019, 11:18:58 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 10, 2019, 05:15:07 pm
It would be a little odd compared to the rest of the game for the player necro to be incapable of one of the major things necromancers can do given the way you have treated inconsistencies like this previously(usually from what I’ve seen you don’t let these sorts of inconsistencies into your game (And I think that’s for a good reason))
Post by: Criperum on November 10, 2019, 06:07:10 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 10, 2019, 06:12:23 pm
Can player necromancers create the new constructed undead that you added a month or so back? What about the intelligent undead?Constructed undead abominations, no (September fotf).
Quote
With the adventurers as villains content, and the new actions necromancers and demons (with the death sphere I presume) can do in creating experimental creatures and undead types, could player necromancers do the same things when it comes time for adventure mode villainy?
Toady:
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004710#msg8004710
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017739#msg8017739
Yeah, as suggested in the replies, it's a bit out of scope. It isn't an 'interaction' in the way the other powers are, because it's presumably occurring through some process that has additional inputs over time, etc. We'll be sorting these more complicated bits out with the magic stuff.
Intelligent undead lieutenants, yes. (June fotf).
Quote
Will player necromancers be able to create intelligent undead and if so how much of a corpse is required for it? For example could we make an intelligent zombie severed head?
Toady:
Yeah, you can raise them. The resurrection fitness function has always required a central part (the upper body in most cases), to avoid the historical figure from ever being attached to two separate creatures (which would crash the game currently, but we'd like to support in some way later, for various weird situations.)
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 10, 2019, 08:57:37 pm
Thats a shame, would have been an awesome addition. He did add summoning as an interaction type if i recall a devlog so that could have been a placeholder stopgap. Ahh well.Can player necromancers create the new constructed undead that you added a month or so back? What about the intelligent undead?Constructed undead abominations, no (September fotf).QuoteWith the adventurers as villains content, and the new actions necromancers and demons (with the death sphere I presume) can do in creating experimental creatures and undead types, could player necromancers do the same things when it comes time for adventure mode villainy?
Toady:
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004710#msg8004710
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017739#msg8017739
Yeah, as suggested in the replies, it's a bit out of scope. It isn't an 'interaction' in the way the other powers are, because it's presumably occurring through some process that has additional inputs over time, etc. We'll be sorting these more complicated bits out with the magic stuff.
Intelligent undead lieutenants, yes. (June fotf).QuoteWill player necromancers be able to create intelligent undead and if so how much of a corpse is required for it? For example could we make an intelligent zombie severed head?
Toady:
Yeah, you can raise them. The resurrection fitness function has always required a central part (the upper body in most cases), to avoid the historical figure from ever being attached to two separate creatures (which would crash the game currently, but we'd like to support in some way later, for various weird situations.)
Post by: DerMeister on November 11, 2019, 11:54:57 am
Post by: therahedwig on November 11, 2019, 11:59:56 am
How looks harpy and ogre eyes? How ogre and harpy see?With the eyes their raws inherit from the generic [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]. I think someone more familiar with the raws can detail that better. Unless you are not talking about raws?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 11, 2019, 12:03:17 pm
Post by: DerMeister on November 11, 2019, 12:38:55 pm
Harpies and ogres have eyes and see by eyes. But theyre eyes ingame called white. How creature can have white eyes and see? I know only Oratosquilla oratoria.How looks harpy and ogre eyes? How ogre and harpy see?With the eyes their raws inherit from the generic [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]. I think someone more familiar with the raws can detail that better. Unless you are not talking about raws?
Post by: ZM5 on November 11, 2019, 12:56:29 pm
Harpies have [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:PUPIL_EYE_WHITE:1] so only their pupils are white. With ogres just having [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:WHITE:1] for their eyes they probably just have fully mulky white eyes with no pupils.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 11, 2019, 01:04:00 pm
Fantasy creatures don't have to obey real world physics, and even so, is there anything that would prevent a white iris to work properly, or, for that matter, a white/silver reflecting layer at the back of the eyes (like the green ones cats have).Harpies and ogres have eyes and see by eyes. But theyre eyes ingame called white. How creature can have white eyes and see? I know only Oratosquilla oratoria.How looks harpy and ogre eyes? How ogre and harpy see?With the eyes their raws inherit from the generic [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]. I think someone more familiar with the raws can detail that better. Unless you are not talking about raws?
And PLEASE stop asking questions where you only mention half of what you actually mean to ask. Provide all the relevant information at once. (In this case it would be something like "How come ogres and harpies can see when their eyes are white").
Post by: therahedwig on November 11, 2019, 01:16:43 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 11, 2019, 06:08:58 pm
Mind, I think DerMeister's English isn't good enough for them to be able to look critically enough at their own posts and see that half their point is missing. I am not sure what they can do about that, as I myself was good enough at English once I started posting on internet forums...No, the quality of the English isn't the issue, as it can usually be understood, but the leaving out most of the information, relying (and failing) on telepathy to bring the context across is. The above is a typical example of asking only half the question, get a straight answer to that question, only to get a small piece of the rest of the puzzle, resulting in a new answer to the somewhat expanded question, etc.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 12, 2019, 04:32:58 am
Mind, I think DerMeister's English isn't good enough for them to be able to look critically enough at their own posts and see that half their point is missing. I am not sure what they can do about that, as I myself was good enough at English once I started posting on internet forums...No, the quality of the English isn't the issue, as it can usually be understood, but the leaving out most of the information, relying (and failing) on telepathy to bring the context across is.
Dermiester has since been banned thanks to the grateful help of Mr.Adam's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175020.msg8053790#msg8053790), so let us continue with the other points.
Is there a possibility to start a "war" between two vilians? Especially between player-vilian and AI controlled one?
If both are national position holders at a leader level, i guess it woudn't be too hard unless you're just talking about hard rivals in their own gangs mutually on some sort of turf war, depends on the scope of villian plot activities you can undertake such as putting blame on a person or accelerating the plans against each other mutually in adventuremode (we'll see how it manifests when we're at the release)
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 12, 2019, 09:51:51 am
A while ago you talked about “really bad things” causing a region to turn evil (whether by sacrificing many creatures with a small age number, or some other terrible catastrophe. Is that still planned and will players be able to do this?
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 12, 2019, 10:19:04 am
In the upcoming version evil regions can gloriously spread outwords from necromancer towers. In adventure mode the player can become a necromancer the player can also use their zombies to build a camp. So will evil regions spread outwards from these sorts of camps If the player takes some time to build up the zombie population?
A while ago you talked about “really bad things” causing a region to turn evil (whether by sacrificing many creatures with a small age number, or some other terrible catastrophe. Is that still planned and will players be able to do this?
I don't remember that at all but there's enough talking about curatively fixing things when places become evil (lifting the curse, blessing it, doing stuff) rather than just tolerating it, which at the moment is just limited to killing its source versus the unquellable primordial types. The full harm/heal will probably be bundled together as a feature in the magic arc or sometime after.
Though in hindsight i can probably see the callously pragmatic actions of players creating a lot of ghosts very quickly somehow having a adverse effect beyond just ruining your local reputation to actually make the place cursed. Or housing a cursed artifact made or reclaimed from elsewhere.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 12, 2019, 11:40:45 am
In the upcoming version evil regions can gloriously spread outwords from necromancer towers. In adventure mode in the current version the player can become a necromancer the player can also use their zombies to build a camp. So will evil regions spread outwards from these sorts of camps If the player takes some time to build up the zombie population?I'd expect the spreading of evil from a necro tower to be tied to the tower itself (and it being inhabited by a necro so it's active). If that's the case the question turns into one of whether an adventurer can turn its camp into a "necro tower" or if a necro adventurer can "turn on" a necro tower.
A while ago you talked about “really bad things” causing a region to turn evil (whether by sacrificing many creatures with a small age number, or some other terrible catastrophe. Is that still planned and will players be able to do this?
My guess is that the answer to the first question is no for the time being (too far off the center of the current development arc target), with the second one a "maybe" depending on how easy it is for DF to detect the necro's presence and activities.
Regardless, spreading evilness in adventure mode is going to be a rather tedious task given the rate at which it spreads, with the time scale being years for any shift and decades for significant effects to be seen. Sure, a necro has all the time in the world, but the player doesn't. It would actually be more "useful" to turn a player fortress into a "necro tower" when it comes to noticing the spread of evil, but I don't expect that to be possible in the Villains release.
For the really long term evilness spreading purposes you'd want epic time scales, such as a world observation mode where the activated world just continues while the player watches passively (or goes off to do something else, such as catching up on sleep or earn their living), but that's not something that's going to happen in the near term, although the embark time has been DFHacked to allow for that activity to progress much longer that the standard two weeks, but you'd need to make an embark every time you'd want to see what's happened since the last time, as well as to save the progress, and won't see what's happening in between these times.
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 12, 2019, 12:37:35 pm
In the upcoming version evil regions can gloriously spread outwords from necromancer towers. In adventure mode in the current version the player can become a necromancer the player can also use their zombies to build a camp. So will evil regions spread outwards from these sorts of camps If the player takes some time to build up the zombie population?I'd expect the spreading of evil from a necro tower to be tied to the tower itself (and it being inhabited by a necro so it's active). If that's the case the question turns into one of whether an adventurer can turn its camp into a "necro tower" or if a necro adventurer can "turn on" a necro tower.
A while ago you talked about “really bad things” causing a region to turn evil (whether by sacrificing many creatures with a small age number, or some other terrible catastrophe. Is that still planned and will players be able to do this?
My guess is that the answer to the first question is no for the time being (too far off the center of the current development arc target), with the second one a "maybe" depending on how easy it is for DF to detect the necro's presence and activities.
Regardless, spreading evilness in adventure mode is going to be a rather tedious task given the rate at which it spreads, with the time scale being years for any shift and decades for significant effects to be seen. Sure, a necro has all the time in the world, but the player doesn't. It would actually be more "useful" to turn a player fortress into a "necro tower" when it comes to noticing the spread of evil, but I don't expect that to be possible in the Villains release.
For the really long term evilness spreading purposes you'd want epic time scales, such as a world observation mode where the activated world just continues while the player watches passively (or goes off to do something else, such as catching up on sleep or earn their living), but that's not something that's going to happen in the near term, although the embark time has been DFHacked to allow for that activity to progress much longer that the standard two weeks, but you'd need to make an embark every time you'd want to see what's happened since the last time, as well as to save the progress, and won't see what's happening in between these times.
I dont see why this is a thing to worry about, you can just retire your adventurer in his "tower" and play fort mode for awhile then check back later. If you are like me you keep playing in the same world for long periods of time and so do have time to see those changes. It doesnt need to spread from a fort for you to see it. Just from your retired necro, fort mode is in the same world as adventure mode. (So its no more "useful" for it to spread from a fort or from a player adventurer retired in his "tower")
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 12, 2019, 03:12:52 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 13, 2019, 09:58:12 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on November 14, 2019, 03:54:47 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 14, 2019, 04:06:56 am
It would be a rare thing for sure. The game is supposedly getting most actors involved in these plots based on personality type, so infiltrators would already be the sort of folks who care more about personal gain than anything else. But maybe they meet a really persuasive fellow and lose an argument, change their values, and their ways. You never know.Remember it's not the top dog coming to infiltrate your fortress, just some henchman, possibly blackmailed into doing the job. With the complexity of values in critter's brains these days, it's not inconceivable for someone to rate love and friendship over fear of a far away, possibly not that threatening mid-level villain.
If you read the description of the new interrogation "combat" system, you'll see that it factors in fear of the boss Vs whatever the interrogator is using. That's only a tiny step from a quick calculation which makes an infiltrator decide not to pull the front door lever after all.
And just when the player notices what happened, the poor guy gets arrested and hammered. The makings of a beautiful tragedy.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 14, 2019, 11:32:17 am
With all this swaying of loyalties going on, have you considered the reverse? Time and again in fantasy fiction, the "infiltrator" makes friends, falls in love and finds his/her loyalties to the Big Boss conflicted. With love, respect and loyalty messing up our critter's brains now, seems like this is quite possible.
Ah yes, pschologically terrorize/infatuate your foes until the switch sides or start a loyalty cascade. TVtropes.org has some perfect analogies and explanations for it like 'Defeat Means Friendship' (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefeatMeansFriendship) complimenting the heel faced turn (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn) in character described for whichever reason you'd like. Already you can do a downscaled thing like this by equipping your adventurer with legendary persuader running around with a extreme viewset flipping other influencial citizens in the world, or writing a well written influencial and distributed book, other skills like intimidator are naturally complicit with social activities like bartering.
I mean i have a few questions buzzing to go but id like to see some more replies before i tackle them, but here's one.
Quote from: Question to Toady
"Will we have any meaningful interactions to the dialogue interrogators have with POW's and other non-agents caught in cages?"
Suggestion'y kind of territory: It'd be pretty neat if we could simply ask a native population of animalpeople, "why are you on our land", and try to use the interrogator's skills to negotiate that'd it'd be better for them to join us or to move elsewhere. Though i imagine goblin soldiers will either plead to be freed or be very belligerant in the face of capture and need breaking before they spill the beans if their life means anything to the player.
It may be a exaggeration of how targeted exactly interrogations are and whether its autonomously connected to witnesss reports and criminality rather than just shaking down anybody you like for information while they're trapped for your leisure.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 14, 2019, 10:18:00 pm
Also, do priests and high priests suffer from jealousy over the value of their temple compared with other temples? That still happens with nobles and their room value, doesn't it?
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 15, 2019, 04:20:11 am
Can you build temples or temple complexes to specific religions before being petitioned or has the interface changed in the new version? Right now I find that making a temple for each god keeps dwarves happier than having the one all-purpose temple (not scientifically tested). So, I'd probably do this anyway way before any priest asks me to.I don't see any reason to block players from planning ahead with temple designation, but the question is relevant.
Also, do priests and high priests suffer from jealousy over the value of their temple compared with other temples? That still happens with nobles and their room value, doesn't it?
There's a difference between priests and nobles in that nobles are part of an official hierarchy, while priesthoods ought to be based on its members rather than on donations from the overseer, and that they're on the same hierarchical level as the others within one of the two clerical hierarchy levels. Still, historically temples and their priesthoods have competed both over the minds and purses of the population, the opulence of their temples, and the prestige of their priesthood. However, I'd expect the current development to form a foundation for such developments later, rather than having it implemented now (donations/taxes would require some kind of economy, for instance).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 15, 2019, 06:30:58 am
I don't imagine actual religious tension between religions will make it out of worldgen for this release, but it'll be nice to see in the future. Priests fighting each other, guilds fighting each other, villains causing civil wars in your fortress. Never mind the damn gobbos outside trying to tunnel under the drawbridge. :)
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 15, 2019, 11:37:44 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 16, 2019, 12:05:53 am
If i recall correctly adventurer mounts are in the upcoming version. If so, how does one get a mount, do they have to start with one if they want one or is there a way to purchase them? Also , does riding it make you move faster ion the world travel map?For a start, they'll be available as "pets" when you create your party. Without taming or horse sales as a feature of Adventurer, there's not likely to be many other ways at first. Although, adventurer taming is surely low-hanging fruit.
Devnotes:
Quote
You can now create as many characters as you want when you start adventure mode, and they'll start together as a party. There are new equipment and mount/pet pages, as with skills and attributes, where you customize your character(s) from an additional point pool.
Talking of party set up, did you say you were going to add a save button to party creation like we get with dwarf mode setup? I know it's more complex than a standard "save" feature what with availability of animal people and certain types of equipment and so on in each world, but it would be nice to get a basic setup saved and then just have to tweak the details.
Kind of related to this suggestion:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173825.0
Post by: Jack_Caboose on November 16, 2019, 01:34:23 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 16, 2019, 03:02:46 am
Just a quick question - As the mythgen update will add artifacts with actual effects, how far will this control extend in terms of mods? Would it be possible to, for example, have a library of user-defined artifacts (with set names, effects, materials, etc) that will be guaranteed to show up in a world?An editor is planned for Mythgen (maybe not right away), so you can make fixed worlds to exact standards, sites, historical figures, artifacts, etc. So, I'd imagine a fair amount of flexibility through that. Doubt the relationship between that and random worlds has been worked out fully yet though. Would be fun to input exact artifacts that someone will make someday into otherwise random worlds. But probably difficult to realize.
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 16, 2019, 06:11:23 pm
Post by: Tentacle Demon on November 17, 2019, 07:17:52 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 19, 2019, 12:10:08 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 19, 2019, 01:29:17 am
Since some evil biomes spread now could they then overtake a human city/town and inadvertently fill up the catacombs with undead in that way. Could it destroy the town making it a ruin with catacombs filled with undead? Or perhaps be a vector for a new “slay the undead in the catacombs” agreement. Much like the current attack the tower trouble.
Post by: ultimatedumbdumb on November 19, 2019, 08:52:32 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 19, 2019, 09:53:59 pm
Guys does toady plan to make building like rimworld where you can just for example order a bed to be created without using workshops.The manager lets you do that already. Just order a bunch of beds.
Dwarves themselves will still use a workshop though. Rimworld folk just build stuff whevever they like? Hmm.
Changes mentioned by Toady regarding workshops involve changing them to zones, somewhat like the Locations now. So presumably you'll be able to add tools, extra people, I guess that might lead to apprentice systems and such. That'll break all sorts of things though so won't happen until the Big Wait (when breaking stuff is allowed, apparently).
Use Lime green text if you want to ask a direct question to Toady.
Post by: ultimatedumbdumb on November 19, 2019, 09:57:15 pm
Thank youGuys does toady plan to make building like rimworld where you can just for example order a bed to be created without using workshops.The manager lets you do that already. Just order a bunch of beds.
Dwarves themselves will still use a workshop though. Rimworld folk just build stuff whevever they like? Hmm.
Changes mentioned by Toady regarding workshops involve changing them to zones, somewhat like the Locations now. So presumably you'll be able to add tools, extra people, I guess that might lead to apprentice systems and such. That'll break all sorts of things though so won't happen until the Big Wait (when breaking stuff is allowed, apparently).
Use Lime green text if you want to ask a direct question to Toady.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 22, 2019, 04:19:53 am
I'm thinking of things like guards that actually stop thieves/assassins from accessing restricted areas, rather than just note that they stole/murdered the artifact/monarch (while asleep in the bedroom), and anyone raising alarms (rather than just filed a report) when an outsider is seen carrying off an artifact (that hasn't been given away, of course, although I wouldn't mind if some dorfs would eventually be grumpy about that as well).
Obviously investigations would be active, but they'd have to be based on indications, and so doesn't fulfill this need. The fortress has long been short on standing means to protect against (visiting) vampires and spies (I've never actually seen a "real" spy, but plenty of goblin civ performance troupe members reporting back, as seen by invaders bypassing traps).
Post by: therahedwig on November 22, 2019, 07:13:45 am
I have seen spies, but that was like, a very weird situation; I'd put myself in some weird tundra isle(it was caled the bearded isle, can you blame me?), opened a tavern, and people came in over the haunted glacier to find information about random artifacts.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 22, 2019, 07:38:30 am
*Have to come up with a new name, as Toady will use it for some villains.
Post by: Rockphed on November 22, 2019, 09:14:14 am
Post by: thvaz on November 22, 2019, 10:55:19 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 22, 2019, 11:51:13 am
Artifact hunters aren't spies. They're completely open with what their objective is, although the ones I've termed "infiltrators"* cause a mess when one of them leaves and returns to sneak in and attack, in particular since their hordes tend to come shortly after the tavern opens, and then thin out over time as they gradually change to other military types (mercs and cavern litter) on later visits.
*Have to come up with a new name, as Toady will use it for some villains.
I gnerally call all Artifact hunters "questers" in the current version as tahts what toady calls them, because they actually get tasks from lords to retrieve artifacts and slay beasts and travel the world map to gather info and gather info about it like a person in d&d would. (They even go to taverns and such outside of your fort and it simulates that as you play and you can intercept them on their quest in adventure mode) They aren't really spies s much as NPC Ai adventurers trying to gather info to complete their quest. Much like player adventurers.
Infiltrators as in the upcoming version are then completely different.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Quester
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities
Post by: mightymushroom on November 22, 2019, 12:12:01 pm
I love the artifact thief deciding to go visit the tavern after getting his artifact. Fleeing the map is probably wiser, but it paints an awesome picture.
Ditto for me. And if the justice system needs a few baked-in delays to give the overseers time to notice events, this sounds both dorfy and like real life. "Who, me? I'm just having a pint or three before going back to my hamlet, officer."
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 22, 2019, 01:09:00 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 22, 2019, 01:24:17 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 22, 2019, 01:41:23 pm
My old "infiltrators" are the subset of questers that send one of their number out to come back to try to steal the artifact/attack, activating the rest of the group. You obviously don't know beforehand whether a quester horde will turn your fortress into a mad/slaughter house or behave in a civilized manner (with or without demanding that an artifact is handed over to them). Thus, I'm using the Quester term for the overall category, but there's a need for a term for the mayhem creators (as well as fixing the bugs if their existence is intentional, and removing the whole mess if it's not).Artifact hunters aren't spies. They're completely open with what their objective is, although the ones I've termed "infiltrators"* cause a mess when one of them leaves and returns to sneak in and attack, in particular since their hordes tend to come shortly after the tavern opens, and then thin out over time as they gradually change to other military types (mercs and cavern litter) on later visits.
*Have to come up with a new name, as Toady will use it for some villains.
I gnerally call all Artifact hunters "questers" in the current version as tahts what toady calls them, because they actually get tasks from lords to retrieve artifacts and slay beasts and travel the world map to gather info and gather info about it like a person in d&d would. (They even go to taverns and such outside of your fort and it simulates that as you play and you can intercept them on their quest in adventure mode) They aren't really spies s much as NPC Ai adventurers trying to gather info to complete their quest. Much like player adventurers.
Infiltrators as in the upcoming version are then completely different.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Quester
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 22, 2019, 01:48:24 pm
My old "infiltrators" are the subset of questers that send one of their number out to come back to try to steal the artifact/attack, activating the rest of the group. You obviously don't know beforehand whether a quester horde will turn your fortress into a mad/slaughter house or behave in a civilized manner (with or without demanding that an artifact is handed over to them). Thus, I'm using the Quester term for the overall category, but there's a need for a term for the mayhem creators (as well as fixing the bugs if their existence is intentional, and removing the whole mess if it's not).Artifact hunters aren't spies. They're completely open with what their objective is, although the ones I've termed "infiltrators"* cause a mess when one of them leaves and returns to sneak in and attack, in particular since their hordes tend to come shortly after the tavern opens, and then thin out over time as they gradually change to other military types (mercs and cavern litter) on later visits.
*Have to come up with a new name, as Toady will use it for some villains.
I gnerally call all Artifact hunters "questers" in the current version as tahts what toady calls them, because they actually get tasks from lords to retrieve artifacts and slay beasts and travel the world map to gather info and gather info about it like a person in d&d would. (They even go to taverns and such outside of your fort and it simulates that as you play and you can intercept them on their quest in adventure mode) They aren't really spies s much as NPC Ai adventurers trying to gather info to complete their quest. Much like player adventurers.
Infiltrators as in the upcoming version are then completely different.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Quester
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities
Am pretty sure its intentional. It makes sense for the mayham to be an option, brings me back to murder hobos from d&d.
Post by: therahedwig on November 22, 2019, 02:17:58 pm
The talk is pretty interesting too, mostly in terms of stuff people do something with and the things people ignore, and how that seems to have been an inspiration for emphasizing the investigation element of interacting with villains. And also just general acknowledgement that the thoughts and description screen for dorfs needs better UI :D
Post by: squamous on November 22, 2019, 05:48:26 pm
1. In a previous FOTF you mentioned the DEMON tag would become usable by modders. Would this allow modders to create their own dark fortress rulers or just make demons that live underground? There seems to be a difference between the two, but I might be overthinking things.
2. My memory might be betraying me here but was it mentioned that caravans would spawn in the world now? Not to like actually serve as an economy yet but just travel between towns as a flavor thing. Could I rob them?
3. So necromancers will teach their secrets to willing co-conspirators if their personalities allow it. Would a type of secret holder who does not live in a tower also be capable of gaining disciples? Like, if I were to make a worldgen secret that did not make the user immortal but taught them how to throw fireballs and the like, could that person teach others how to do it? Right now, that sort of thing only happens in towers to my knowledge, so I'm curious.
4. On a similar note, it was mentioned how necromancers could reanimate sapient undead or special experimental monsters, which could gain independence and flee their master to wander the wilderness. Would it be possible to repurpose these interactions for transformed beings rather than reanimated ones? Like for example, say I made a wizard who could transmute corpses into, just for example, elves, would they function the same as a conventionally reanimated lieutenant? Or some other monster. Essentially, would it be possible to create wizards who create new forms of living monsters and races in addition to the vanilla undead ones?
5. What compels an NPC to wear gloves/armwear/cloaks? I've noticed some of them do, but some of them don't. I can't seem to find an underlying logic to it. Is it random?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 22, 2019, 06:04:09 pm
2. Caravan robbing and playing as either guard or bandit is in the dev notes yes. Nothing seems to be planned regarding real caravans for the upcoming release though.
1. In a previous FOTF you mentioned the DEMON tag would become usable by modders. Would this allow modders to create their own dark fortress rulers or just make demons that live underground? There seems to be a difference between the two, but I might be overthinking things.
2. My memory might be betraying me here but was it mentioned that caravans would spawn in the world now? Not to like actually serve as an economy yet but just travel between towns as a flavor thing. Could I rob them?
3. So necromancers will teach their secrets to willing co-conspirators if their personalities allow it. Would a type of secret holder who does not live in a tower also be capable of gaining disciples? Like, if I were to make a worldgen secret that did not make the user immortal but taught them how to throw fireballs and the like, could that person teach others how to do it? Right now, that sort of thing only happens in towers to my knowledge, so I'm curious.
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on November 22, 2019, 06:37:31 pm
1. In a previous FOTF you mentioned the DEMON tag would become usable by modders. Would this allow modders to create their own dark fortress rulers or just make demons that live underground? There seems to be a difference between the two, but I might be overthinking things.
At least in terms of this question, UNIQUE_DEMON is the tag that controls whether or not a specific demon is chosen to lead dark fortress, to my knowledge. And that one may be unlocked too with the coming update(s). Even just the regular DEMON tag being unlocked would be really cool in my opinion, while having both would be extra awesome. Although, if I remember the wiki correctly, the underworld can be populated with non-demon creatures by virtue of assigning them a deep enough layer to live in.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 22, 2019, 06:54:34 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on November 22, 2019, 07:07:46 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 22, 2019, 07:19:10 pm
2. Caravan robbing and playing as either guard or bandit is in the dev notes yes. Nothing seems to be planned regarding real caravans for the upcoming release though.
1. In a previous FOTF you mentioned the DEMON tag would become usable by modders. Would this allow modders to create their own dark fortress rulers or just make demons that live underground? There seems to be a difference between the two, but I might be overthinking things.
2. My memory might be betraying me here but was it mentioned that caravans would spawn in the world now? Not to like actually serve as an economy yet but just travel between towns as a flavor thing. Could I rob them?
3. So necromancers will teach their secrets to willing co-conspirators if their personalities allow it. Would a type of secret holder who does not live in a tower also be capable of gaining disciples? Like, if I were to make a worldgen secret that did not make the user immortal but taught them how to throw fireballs and the like, could that person teach others how to do it? Right now, that sort of thing only happens in towers to my knowledge, so I'm curious.
You can in fact already join a bandit gang. No robbing caravans yet tho.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 22, 2019, 07:27:19 pm
Yeah, that's right. So, more accurately, what's planned is caravan guard jobs and "expanded options for bandit play". :)2. Caravan robbing and playing as either guard or bandit is in the dev notes yes. Nothing seems to be planned regarding real caravans for the upcoming release though.
1. In a previous FOTF you mentioned the DEMON tag would become usable by modders. Would this allow modders to create their own dark fortress rulers or just make demons that live underground? There seems to be a difference between the two, but I might be overthinking things.
2. My memory might be betraying me here but was it mentioned that caravans would spawn in the world now? Not to like actually serve as an economy yet but just travel between towns as a flavor thing. Could I rob them?
3. So necromancers will teach their secrets to willing co-conspirators if their personalities allow it. Would a type of secret holder who does not live in a tower also be capable of gaining disciples? Like, if I were to make a worldgen secret that did not make the user immortal but taught them how to throw fireballs and the like, could that person teach others how to do it? Right now, that sort of thing only happens in towers to my knowledge, so I'm curious.
You can in fact already join a bandit gang. No robbing caravans yet tho.
Post by: Toady One on November 22, 2019, 08:00:29 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 22, 2019, 08:54:45 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 22, 2019, 11:10:45 pm
(removed a ban dodge account (Tentacle Demon/DerMeister) and some replies - don't think it was anything crucial, hopefully)
Ayy good to know
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 23, 2019, 04:59:26 am
Quote
(well, the first time, Ishas strapped the pick on his back and went to enjoy himself at the tavern, which I then changed.)
Well i dont know if this is a sneaky hint or not regarding whether any subtle changes to unit inventories are being implemented, because that kind of action doesn't really habitually happen, often preferring to keep things they interact with in hands and have a little freakout when they're holding a mug and a object in the other for instance they can't just hook on their belt or put on their person like a player adventurer can with generous inventory.
- Very rarely ever swapping or putting on back weapons they're using (opaquely connected to armor layer room space or whether two weapons being stored clash it seems like), and reacting to a very specific situation like crossbowdwarves changing weapon to melee (which can be micro'd like sending them to a training range just to revert back to active crossbow-weapon but its unreliable and single type of weapon dwarves are preferred for novice soldiers).
I would hope that a discarded helmet, and witness reports of the dwarf/agent wearing a stolen helmet would help piece together a unanimous decision from the kind of meta-data the player sees about ownership and the gui stuff being chucked around under the improved system. But i don't think anybody really knows yet at what stage dwarves will get suspicious of the agent's intentions.
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 23, 2019, 09:41:03 am
Quote(well, the first time, Ishas strapped the pick on his back and went to enjoy himself at the tavern, which I then changed.)
Well i dont know if this is a sneaky hint or not regarding whether any subtle changes to unit inventories are being implemented, because that kind of action doesn't really habitually happen, often preferring to keep things they interact with in hands and have a little freakout when they're holding a mug and a object in the other for instance they can't just hook on their belt or put on their person like a player adventurer can with generous inventory."If the infiltrators (more to say also covering spies/questers) bring a outfit as part of their disguise or profession attire that's bulk (lots of things already attached and full Armor layer %, posing as a mercenary for instance) and wear the artifact on their way out, have you made any contingency to have them trade equipment or will they walk very slowly on their way out trying to wear a platinum helmet without taking the copper one they had on before off."
- Very rarely ever swapping or putting on back weapons they're using (opaquely connected to armor layer room space or whether two weapons being stored clash it seems like), and reacting to a very specific situation like crossbowdwarves changing weapon to melee (which can be micro'd like sending them to a training range just to revert back to active crossbow-weapon but its unreliable and single type of weapon dwarves are preferred for novice soldiers).
I would hope that a discarded helmet, and witness reports of the dwarf/agent wearing a stolen helmet would help piece together a unanimous decision from the kind of meta-data the player sees about ownership and the gui stuff being chucked around under the improved system. But i don't think anybody really knows yet at what stage dwarves will get suspicious of the agent's intentions.
I thought npcs already sheathed and unsheathed weapons? Ive seen it n adventure mode. Which would mean visitors likely will do that.
Dwarf squads are probably more specific for reasons of player control. They wont act like NPCs
Anyways, if someone is seen wearing an artifact rumors get generated already in the current version, so i would imagine that would be one way of letting the player know whats up if the helmet was the artifact they stole.
(And it woul dthen probably be pretty easy for tarn to wrap steeling items generally into that system)
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 23, 2019, 03:35:08 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 23, 2019, 05:52:24 pm
Do you think it will ever be feasible (post-mythgen, of course) for a player's various DF worlds to form a sort of "multiverse" similar to that of D&D? In the sense that different worlds generated within a single dataset could be connected in various ways and perhaps even have magical travel between some of them be possible? And if so, is this something you would actually have any interest in pursuing (which is perhaps the more important question)?The portals will allow for a multiverse, so I see little point in connecting multiple multiverses together. Apart from that, it would take merging of the saves to create something coherent (once a tape worm character from one multiverse moves to another, all the info about tape worm characters, their culture, etc. would have to be imported an inserted into the save of the receiving multiverse, essentially causing them to have to merge), resulting in a horrendously bloated save (in current day terms: might be "normal" in 10 years).
A more fruitful offshoot would be to somehow control multiple universes within a single multiverse during world gen, or even generate new ones on demand (new massive ritual opening portal, for instance). However, the secondary universes would need to be kept down in size for the save to remains somewhat reasonable in size (the "world" being just a few world tiles, the history being heavily pruned, etc.).
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 23, 2019, 07:18:34 pm
Do you think it will ever be feasible (post-mythgen, of course) for a player's various DF worlds to form a sort of "multiverse" similar to that of D&D? In the sense that different worlds generated within a single dataset could be connected in various ways and perhaps even have magical travel between some of them be possible? And if so, is this something you would actually have any interest in pursuing (which is perhaps the more important question)?The portals will allow for a multiverse, so I see little point in connecting multiple multiverses together. Apart from that, it would take merging of the saves to create something coherent (once a tape worm character from one multiverse moves to another, all the info about tape worm characters, their culture, etc. would have to be imported an inserted into the save of the receiving multiverse, essentially causing them to have to merge), resulting in a horrendously bloated save (in current day terms: might be "normal" in 10 years).
A more fruitful offshoot would be to somehow control multiple universes within a single multiverse during world gen, or even generate new ones on demand (new massive ritual opening portal, for instance). However, the secondary universes would need to be kept down in size for the save to remains somewhat reasonable in size (the "world" being just a few world tiles, the history being heavily pruned, etc.).
It also has to simulate whats going on in those as you play if Tarn wants to maintain consistency, (Since the world is simmed as you play now) the other world cant just "pause"while you are in the other.
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 24, 2019, 12:42:55 am
Also when will you add openable/enterable windows in adventure mode so we can do a cat burgler style thing in order to enter the villains tower or something? by like climbing the wall then entering the window.
Post by: therahedwig on November 24, 2019, 02:06:13 pm
Hot damn, no one actually asked about architectural windows since may 2014 (in the first fotf thread even), and then it was only whether they'd be treated like walls would for climbers to climb over and not into. ._.
*does more searches* Yeah, not in the suggestion forum either, I guess that's because people don't try out adventure mode enough, nor is there a reason to have airvents in fortress mode.
My gut says such windows are gonna wait till after the map rewrite, when sites slowly(?) get resurrected as that would be the best moment to decide how architectural features in site maps are gonna behave. I hope towers/castles get simple balconies to cat burglar into so you can at the least pretend to sneak your way into the villain's hide out.
Post by: scourge728 on November 24, 2019, 08:59:29 pm
Post by: Inarius on November 25, 2019, 09:52:22 am
Main reply i think is that "forum culture" is something of the past. New people in 2019 don't invest so much in forum as they used to in 2009.
For instance, you could find a lot of "let's play" on the forum in the first years, but now you'll find it on youtube.
However, if you look at max visitor per day in forum stats, you'll see that it's not going down, so the main issue (if it is an issue) is about participation, not interest. (Edit : well maybe there is an issue with interest about DF, after all it's a 15 years very complex old game, but i don't think you can measure interest - or lack of - with forum participation).
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 25, 2019, 10:02:14 am
This issue has been raised several time, if i remember well. I even think there is a topic somewhere about it.
Main reply i think is that "forum culture" is something of the past. New people in 2019 don't invest so much in forum as they used to in 2009.
For instance, you could find a lot of "let's play" on the forum in the first years, but now you'll find it on youtube.
However, if you look at max visitor per day in forum stats, you'll see that it's not going down, so the main issue (if it is an issue) is about participation, not interest. (Edit : well maybe there is an issue with interest about DF, after all it's a 15 years very complex old game, but i don't think you can measure interest - or lack of - with forum participation).
I dont know why that would have anything to do with the forum going down repeatedly. That answer would me more appropriate f someone observed less activity.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 25, 2019, 11:39:40 am
Post by: therahedwig on November 25, 2019, 12:32:31 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 25, 2019, 12:39:31 pm
Post by: notquitethere on November 25, 2019, 12:49:15 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 25, 2019, 01:19:09 pm
(Maybe someone else knows the answer to this, but something I've been curious about.) Will a smaller range of intelligent animalpeople be generated in world generation, or is the plan to always have all kinds of animalpeople appear in every world generated? Seems like a smaller range of civilisation-tier animalpeople would make for more distinct generated settings.
Im fairly sure no given world has the full amount of possible animal people as them being placed in a region still has a random chance associated to it.
Post by: Inarius on November 25, 2019, 01:42:32 pm
Post by: therahedwig on November 25, 2019, 03:00:15 pm
Yeah, even today(the variation used to be even lower, had to be updated during the animal fundraiser) the variation of animal people (and regular animals too) is limited, you can check these kind of things if you look at the sites and populations txt. There's certain worlds where there's no animals. Unless somehow the regions themselves generate animals, or you bring them in via outsider adventurers(which are made from whole cloth).(Maybe someone else knows the answer to this, but something I've been curious about.) Will a smaller range of intelligent animalpeople be generated in world generation, or is the plan to always have all kinds of animalpeople appear in every world generated? Seems like a smaller range of civilisation-tier animalpeople would make for more distinct generated settings.
Im fairly sure no given world has the full amount of possible animal people as them being placed in a region still has a random chance associated to it.
Post by: notquitethere on November 25, 2019, 03:31:31 pm
Will animalpeople ever be civilisation-level species on the same tier as dwarves, elves, humans and goblins?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 25, 2019, 04:29:47 pm
Sorry if this answer is as incoherent as it looks to me, I'm a bit scatterbrained at the moment. :P
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 25, 2019, 04:59:10 pm
I remember Toady saying something about animal people being fleshed-out as part of the mythgen development cycle. Their exact level of civilization will likely vary from world-to-world, but at the very least they should be upgraded to living in their own tribalistic societies rather than just being ordinary animals who happen to be humanoid-shaped and capable of language like in the current version.
Sorry if this answer is as incoherent as it looks to me, I'm a bit scatterbrained at the moment. :P
I remember Toady dating that much further away in about the Law and Holdings planned arc (which is past the big magic arc we're on now), besides that they've been peppered slightly in threetoe stories (the evil wizard who was animating animalpeople servants) i dont remember any devlogs particular that point towards a interest in it. If @PlumpHelmetMan's correct then i guess it might be something as a little side distraction until it gets in the crosshairs of a larger arching target
They're still a popular suggestion though, im sure even Toady can't fault that, poor subterrenean peoples still get the short wedge of the civillization slice with little map feature camps but you do have the advantage to just create a custom civ out of those races with modding and plunk them in a kobold-like cave settlement for a out-of the way existance and addition to the stories you are trying to tell.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 25, 2019, 05:14:28 pm
- Tribal societies, i.e. the animal peoples we have now, but with actual tribes and more interaction with fortresses. That's intended to be dealt with eventually.
- "Civilized" animal people civs (as per the question): As indicated, raw editing can easily create those now, although they'd effectively have to use the templates of the current "civilized" civs.
Myth & Magic is intended to be capable of handling procedurally generated civs, and there's no logical reason animal peoples shouldn't be included in that mix (a creation myth where the great god Ukko imbued sapience into some bears and at the same time made them bipedal wouldn't be outside of a normal fantasy scope).
Post by: notquitethere on November 25, 2019, 05:22:36 pm
Myth & Magic is intended to be capable of handling procedurally generated civs, and there's no logical reason animal peoples shouldn't be included in that mix (a creation myth where the great god Ukko imbued sapience into some bears and at the same time made them bipedal wouldn't be outside of a normal fantasy scope).Yeah that's exactly the sort of thing so was thinking of.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 25, 2019, 05:33:52 pm
I remember Toady saying something about animal people being fleshed-out as part of the mythgen development cycle. Their exact level of civilization will likely vary from world-to-world, but at the very least they should be upgraded to living in their own tribalistic societies rather than just being ordinary animals who happen to be humanoid-shaped and capable of language like in the current version.Quick look through the back pages of Fotf reveals "origins of animal people" defined in Mythgen and actual Animal person civs probably in the next arc on societies, politics and law.
Sorry if this answer is as incoherent as it looks to me, I'm a bit scatterbrained at the moment. :P
All subject to change of course. If sites are rewritten as part of Mythgen map rewrite that brings the possibilities of small tribes and nomadic civs a little closer (and will finally make fleshing out underground civs more feasible). It's just of matter of what gets prioritized (and unexpected things like, Villains requires religion, guilds and mercenary bands to work properly).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 26, 2019, 08:47:00 am
Post by: therahedwig on November 26, 2019, 10:17:28 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 26, 2019, 10:32:06 am
I don't think the non-adventurer player mounts have been touched at all...
Why would he change how mounts work in one context while not changing the other. Toady avoids doing weird game mode specific things like that as according to him they are a nightmare to deal with. So i imagine he also fixed those. Also how do your adventruer companions with mounts act, because you can have that now, if they have AI that takes that into account so do invaders. If they dont, invaders wont.
Oh wow, i just came up with another question.
How does the game treat retired characters with mounts, do the mounts just hang out in the village then with their hist-fig names or do they become stray, or do they just dissappear?
What kind of variation can we expect from the dice roll syndromes...from your devlog " I went to a shrine, rolled a tin icosahedral die and it was a bad roll and I was cursed to be a snowy owl for a week"
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 26, 2019, 04:16:10 pm
Right, Adventurer ai mounts do exist in the form of your companions. Forgot about that one. So no reason this wouldn't effect fortress mount/rider soul relationships. Good good.I don't think the non-adventurer player mounts have been touched at all...
Why would he change how mounts work in one context while not changing the other. Toady avoids doing weird game mode specific things like that as according to him they are a nightmare to deal with. So i imagine he also fixed those. Also how do your adventruer companions with mounts act, because you can have that now, if they have AI that takes that into account so do invaders. If they dont, invaders wont.
Oh wow, i just came up with another question.
How does the game treat retired characters with mounts, do the mounts just hang out in the village then with their hist-fig names or do they become stray, or do they just dissappear?
Post by: MalroktheIII on November 26, 2019, 07:31:34 pm
1:If kidnapping is a possibility, will my fortress be able to kidnap enemy leaders (or just historical figures in general)?
2:Along the same lines, will captured enemies/caged sentients be able to get themselves free/take over the fortress from within by using my dwarves?
3:If vampires/necromancers generally become evil by default, will my vampire necromancer fortress end up spawning hundreds of new villains?
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 27, 2019, 09:53:23 am
I'm too lazy too check if these were asked before, so i'm just going to ask these.
1:If kidnapping is a possibility, will my fortress be able to kidnap enemy leaders (or just historical figures in general)?
2:Along the same lines, will captured enemies/caged sentients be able to get themselves free/take over the fortress from within by using my dwarves?
3:If vampires/necromancers generally become evil by default, will my vampire necromancer fortress end up spawning hundreds of new villains?
Vampires definietly become villains because they have to commit crime to survive, but generally Historical figures become necromancers because they already had a somewhat villainous personality, so making your dwarves into them wouldnt make a difference, the transformation doenst actually change the personality. (It doenst just generate necromancers they come about in worldgen by choices made by hist figs who become necromancers, or in your case a dwarf reading the wrong book) Now if a dwarf was already ambitious (thats a possible personality), it will probabbly just make it more likely.
If you want you can play adventure mode and see how it all works very personally :) rathe rthan making assumptions based on what you see in fort mode
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on November 27, 2019, 10:48:36 am
I'm too lazy too check if these were asked before, so i'm just going to ask these.
1:If kidnapping is a possibility, will my fortress be able to kidnap enemy leaders (or just historical figures in general)?
2:Along the same lines, will captured enemies/caged sentients be able to get themselves free/take over the fortress from within by using my dwarves?
3:If vampires/necromancers generally become evil by default, will my vampire necromancer fortress end up spawning hundreds of new villains?
Vampires definietly become villains because they have to commit crime to survive, but generally Historical figures become necromancers because they already had a somewhat villainous personality, so making your dwarves into them wouldnt make a difference, the transformation doenst actually change the personality. (It doenst just generate necromancers they come about in worldgen by choices made by hist figs who become necromancers, or in your case a dwarf reading the wrong book) Now if a dwarf was already ambitious (thats a possible personality), it will probabbly just make it more likely.
If you want you can play adventure mode and see how it all works very personally :) rathe rthan making assumptions based on what you see in fort mode
I may be misremembering this, but I think Toady at one point stated that the change from mortal to necromancer/vampire comes with a personality change towards the extremely positive when it comes to scheming, to ensure that they actually create and execute their unique schemes. They don't actually get any better naturally at intrigue, I think, but as this release is themed around schemes, giving them a nudge so players have schemes to read about/take part in/stop seems fitting.
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 27, 2019, 10:57:40 am
I'm too lazy too check if these were asked before, so i'm just going to ask these.
1:If kidnapping is a possibility, will my fortress be able to kidnap enemy leaders (or just historical figures in general)?
2:Along the same lines, will captured enemies/caged sentients be able to get themselves free/take over the fortress from within by using my dwarves?
3:If vampires/necromancers generally become evil by default, will my vampire necromancer fortress end up spawning hundreds of new villains?
Vampires definietly become villains because they have to commit crime to survive, but generally Historical figures become necromancers because they already had a somewhat villainous personality, so making your dwarves into them wouldnt make a difference, the transformation doenst actually change the personality. (It doenst just generate necromancers they come about in worldgen by choices made by hist figs who become necromancers, or in your case a dwarf reading the wrong book) Now if a dwarf was already ambitious (thats a possible personality), it will probabbly just make it more likely.
If you want you can play adventure mode and see how it all works very personally :) rathe rthan making assumptions based on what you see in fort mode
I may be misremembering this, but I think Toady at one point stated that the change from mortal to necromancer/vampire comes with a personality change towards the extremely positive when it comes to scheming, to ensure that they actually create and execute their unique schemes. They don't actually get any better naturally at intrigue, I think, but as this release is themed around schemes, giving them a nudge so players have schemes to read about/take part in/stop seems fitting.
Looking through the devlogs i dont see this. So i think you are misremembering, unless he said it in fotf or some interview. The thing is necromancers as individuals already have problems so forcing their personality to change isnt relaly nesessary to begin with. (And its also weird as heck), he did say eventually they will be tempted and give into temptation but thats different from a sudden perosnality change.
I did see one bit like this:
"that necromancer was motivated purely by her zany sense of humor, which somehow survived the transition.." So maybe they dont even need to value cunning to be a villain.
Another fun fact, vampires can apparently use their blood to tempt people to help them, so we can actually get vampire bloodlines now.
Post by: FrankVill on November 27, 2019, 05:18:39 pm
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 27, 2019, 05:48:50 pm
It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version if it existed right now (perhaps the exception would be a quantum computer or a super server).Have the technical requirements actually gone up at all over the past 5 years? A lot has been added since 2014 (last time people mentioned a noticeable increase in requirements). If anything, it's running faster now thanks to optimizations. Replacing the ancient code with new, better designed code and optimizing over time is likely to keep the requirements stable for the foreseeable future.
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 27, 2019, 06:32:26 pm
It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version if it existed right now (perhaps the exception would be a quantum computer or a super server).Speaking as a software engineer,
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?
The fact that you think a quantum computer right now is somehow more powerful then a standard computer right now is somewhat misconstrued.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/quantum-computers-struggle-against-classical-algorithms-20180201/
https://www.wired.com/story/the-ongoing-battle-between-quantum-and-classical-computers/
Right now quantum computers are not more powerful than classical computers in general, quantum, computers are better at certain algorithms, not all algorithms. Also claiming that "It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version" is kind of a big assumption ye sit may grow more complex and will but the technical requirements probably wont change all that much. The most demanding things right now are pathing and weather simulation. Both of which hes either pledged to improve (pathing) or refused to make more complex(and is very old code, that can be optimized) (weather).
Also making the switch to a quantum computer would be arduous for df, many of the algorithms currently present in df would need to be rewritten.
There are a number of technical challenges in building a large-scale quantum computer and thus far quantum computers have yet to solve a classical computation problem faster than a classical computer. Though they have achieved higher speeds on other sorts of algorithms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computing#Quantum_supremacy
(Though I will admit some of the simulation aspects in df could probably be done more efficiently with a quantum computer but right now if df were suddenly converted it would actually run much slower in general)
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 27, 2019, 06:43:48 pm
It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version if it existed right now (perhaps the exception would be a quantum computer or a super server).Have the technical requirements actually gone up at all over the past 5 years? A lot has been added since 2014 (last time people mentioned a noticeable increase in requirements). If anything, it's running faster now thanks to optimizations. Replacing the ancient code with new, better designed code and optimizing over time is likely to keep the requirements stable for the foreseeable future.
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?
I dont believe they have.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 28, 2019, 01:00:19 am
From a Dorf point of view temples are a thing, because dorfs have religious needs plus gathering/socializing. Taverns are a thing because dorfs have a need for entertainment plus gathering/socializing. Guilds are a thing....because...demands provide a gameplay challenge (same as nobles)?
Apologies for slight pessimism, I wasn't around when guilds were last a thing.
Oh, and:
Will entertainers have a chance to get together and demand stuff? Seems like with priests demanding better temples and guilds demanding better guildhalls, entertainers lead by the tavernkeeper might demand bigger, better dance floors and especially more instruments for the tavern (put a stop to all that beatboxing). #notasuggestionatall
And, sorry, one more thing:
Are the guild numbers 10 and 25 moddable?
Post by: ZM5 on November 28, 2019, 04:03:07 am
Perhaps it'd allow for some automation of the "practice a craft" need too.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 28, 2019, 04:13:37 am
Well, its mentioned they could be able to share skills same way as military squads, so that'd be a really good bonus imo, along with some actual socialization.Oh yes, practice a craft need fulfilled by hanging out with other craftspeople playing with abstracted tools would be good to see.
Perhaps it'd allow for some automation of the "practice a craft" need too.
Maybe take on some of the useless children as apprentices so they can be something better then a peasant when they grow up too.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 28, 2019, 07:38:05 am
The problem with guilds fulfilling needs for crafting is that it goes against the grain of what guilds are: organizations for skilled craftsmen (who'd get their crafting needs fulfilled by their work), rather than the dabblers. However, that's a suspension of belief I'd be quite willing to engage in should Toady's guilds actually include huge hobby crafting sections.Well, its mentioned they could be able to share skills same way as military squads, so that'd be a really good bonus imo, along with some actual socialization.Oh yes, practice a craft need fulfilled by hanging out with other craftspeople playing with abstracted tools would be good to see.
Perhaps it'd allow for some automation of the "practice a craft" need too.
Maybe take on some of the useless children as apprentices so they can be something better then a peasant when they grow up too.
I certainly would like apprenticeships as well (in particular if that would help kids craft "real" artifacts rather than the things they currently produce, as they all mood before growing up to learn a real craft [in my fortresses, at least]).
Post by: therahedwig on November 28, 2019, 07:39:06 am
But yeah, I also hope the demonstrations get in, it'd be a good reason to actually foster a craftsguild instead of ignoring them because they might be a vehicle for villainy.
But since it's almost the end of the month...
Are guilds per job type or per job category? (So are we going to see farmer's and woodworking's guilds, or are we going to see pottery and carpentry guilds? Or Both?)
Will trade corporations also make an appearance in player forts? They're separate from craft guilds, right?
Do you think we'll see prophets and religious persecution show up in player forts? Or can we assume all prophets to be hacks?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 28, 2019, 08:04:36 am
I don't think historically kids would join a guild, as they would've been too young to understand the concepts. On the other hand, children would probably be stuck doing stuff like hauling part time and they don't do that in DF either and these ARE dwarves...I originally assumed it was category (because who ever has 10 dorfs of the same job type, let alone 25?). But looking back through the devnotes I see a reference to a bonecarvers guild.
But yeah, I also hope the demonstrations get in, it'd be a good reason to actually foster a craftsguild instead of ignoring them because they might be a vehicle for villainy.
But since it's almost the end of the month...
Are guilds per job type or per job category? (So are we going to see farmer's and woodworking's guilds, or are we going to see pottery and carpentry guilds? Or Both?)
Will trade corporations also make an appearance in player forts? They're separate from craft guilds, right?
Do you think we'll see prophets and religious persecution show up in player forts? Or can we assume all prophets to be hacks?
Current fortress has 118 dwarves. I can form a farmer's guild and nothing else, unless the dancers unionize.
Prophets are meant to turn up in the new version. But even the non-spies only give fake prophesies. Mythgen might figure out how to predict the future (and have added apocalyptic events to prophesies about).
Post by: therahedwig on November 28, 2019, 08:36:09 am
EDIT: to clarify, prophets from the bible are able to tell the future because God is able to tell the future, and conveys that to Their prophets through visions and dreams. And, come to think of it, so this is also how the oracle of Delphi worked(messages supposedly coming from Apollo, afair) This might just not ever be the case for a DF deity, but they do have that kind of relationship with their prophets. I think this is also why we got divination dice in temples now... Oh!
Does using the dice at a shrine count as communicating with that deity in terms of needs?
Post by: Flying Teasets on November 28, 2019, 11:02:59 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 28, 2019, 11:07:06 am
(Craftsdwarf assisted by apprentice doing jobs slightly faster? Would involve the hassle of trying to get both in place at the same time, unless completely abstracted. Setting apprentice to haul stuff for the next job to the workshop? Would require the next job to be "started" before the current one is finished, with the attendant locking of the input items and release if the job wasn't completed. Etc.).
Edit (Flying Teasets posted while I typed):
I'd expect guilds to eventually guard trade secrets, but currently there are no secrets to hide, so it would be room for future expansion. Also carries the issues that you'd get problems with starting a fortress if the crafting knowledge you need are kept by guilds that won't form until you've started the fortress... Thus, any secrets would have to be sufficiently advanced that fortresses without them aren't hampered too much. The making of foreign clothing/armors/weapons would be candidates within the current DF environment.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 28, 2019, 03:29:19 pm
Its nice that guild halls seem to have a working men's club theme about sociabilty (though in the terms of organised dwarf labor, there is no such gender distinction) that will be helpful. And that you seem relatively confident in their ability to talk amongst themselves in the meeting areas.
Are dwarves driven to make and join guilds based on personality facets (appreciation of craftmanship) or is it just hardwired related to experience?
I would be suprised if it wasn't the case, but it'd be particularly interesting to see a modding applied race swap-out or player grooming of civilization values because it inferrs that lazy/unappreciative dwarves do not make or assotiate with guilds, and that the mechanic could potentially be applied in reverse for negative value required organisations
- Be assured, players will take the *utmost* care in censuring high nature value druid cults full of peace and nature loving brainwashed dwarves.
Seperately -Will we have any control over the profession training regime? As im worried about my dwarves spending more time training to do a job than actually working to earn xp, as well as some discretion a player could personally bring.
Mainly thinking of the examples of military training, where if you can tease the military schedule screen into doing what you want through the gui menu's you can essentially create the training scenario you desire including lowering/raising the number of participants and selecting individuals to train specifically with one another which often works out well.
Post by: therahedwig on November 28, 2019, 04:24:43 pm
Quote
For now, dwarves can join the guild corresponding to their specific profession and also one for their broader group (e.g. craftsdwarves and then a subchapter for bone carvers), depending on their actual skills rather than their labor settings.
From the steam blog (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8060514#msg8060514)
Well, I guess that answers that...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 28, 2019, 04:54:00 pm
Oh well that sounds more reasonable. My current fortress of 118 dwarves has potentially 3 guilds then. An opulent 26 "brown" guild (farming related), a regular guild for the 10 blue crafty dwarves and an extra regular guild just for the actual farmers.QuoteFor now, dwarves can join the guild corresponding to their specific profession and also one for their broader group (e.g. craftsdwarves and then a subchapter for bone carvers), depending on their actual skills rather than their labor settings.
From the steam blog (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8060514#msg8060514)
Well, I guess that answers that...
Seems reasonable.
Do green dwarves (rangers, hunters, etc) get a guild? Because demands for a room full of animal parts on pedestals sounds kind of cool.
If I have an opulent guildhall with everything a dwarf from a farming related profession could ever want, will I still be getting stressed dwarves demanding a regular sub-chapter guildhall for the 10 brewers?
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 28, 2019, 08:51:21 pm
Oh well that sounds more reasonable. My current fortress of 118 dwarves has potentially 3 guilds then. An opulent 26 "brown" guild (farming related), a regular guild for the 10 blue crafty dwarves and an extra regular guild just for the actual farmers.QuoteFor now, dwarves can join the guild corresponding to their specific profession and also one for their broader group (e.g. craftsdwarves and then a subchapter for bone carvers), depending on their actual skills rather than their labor settings.
From the steam blog (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8060514#msg8060514)
Well, I guess that answers that...
Seems reasonable.
Do green dwarves (rangers, hunters, etc) get a guild? Because demands for a room full of animal parts on pedestals sounds kind of cool.
If I have an opulent guildhall with everything a dwarf from a farming related profession could ever want, will I still be getting stressed dwarves demanding a regular sub-chapter guildhall for the 10 brewers?
Rather then attempt to answer this I want to say a huntsmans guild or rangers guild would be awesome. Even like a beastslayers/adventurer guild for forts and adventure mode would be awesome.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 28, 2019, 08:56:27 pm
Oh, what if they had archery targets in the guildhall and could train their crossbow skills, like a military squad, during downtime? That would be nice.Oh well that sounds more reasonable. My current fortress of 118 dwarves has potentially 3 guilds then. An opulent 26 "brown" guild (farming related), a regular guild for the 10 blue crafty dwarves and an extra regular guild just for the actual farmers.QuoteFor now, dwarves can join the guild corresponding to their specific profession and also one for their broader group (e.g. craftsdwarves and then a subchapter for bone carvers), depending on their actual skills rather than their labor settings.
From the steam blog (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8060514#msg8060514)
Well, I guess that answers that...
Seems reasonable.
Do green dwarves (rangers, hunters, etc) get a guild? Because demands for a room full of animal parts on pedestals sounds kind of cool.
If I have an opulent guildhall with everything a dwarf from a farming related profession could ever want, will I still be getting stressed dwarves demanding a regular sub-chapter guildhall for the 10 brewers?
Rather then attempt to answer this I want to say a huntsmans guild or rangers guild would be awesome. Even like a beastslayers/adventurer guild for forts and adventure mode would be awesome.
Not that they really need a boost, hunting seems to level them up pretty quickly, but "hunters guild demand an archery range" just because, would be fun.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 29, 2019, 03:50:09 am
This is, of course, a thinly veiled request... The issue I see is that small fortresses (like the ones I've played) won't get those numbers (I'm not that worried about the full guild complex one for my case). Also, depending on how they behave, players may want to disable them for one reason or another, and an easy way to do that is to jack the formation threshold up through the roof.
Post by: Beag on November 29, 2019, 02:28:27 pm
Post by: CatG0d on November 29, 2019, 03:17:24 pm
1. What technology or discovery (if any) do you wish you had available when you first started work on DF?
2. What newer technology would you like to implement at one point in DF?
3. What possible future technology are you most excited about, especially when it comes to developing DF?
4. I know this will be a weird comparison, but I feel DF may end up a lot like a space probe, where a project started way later will surpass it because of advancements in computers and programming. How would you feel if another team started another project like DF (so a fantasy world simulator-generator) and ended up "overtaking you"?
5.This a bit more specific but I would like to ask someone who has a lot more experience in coding than me. I know there is this discussion about how the AI in the world will adapt to new mechanics introduced by random magic systems (such as free teleportation for everyone making doors obsolete). I was wondering if it would be possible to use some sort of self-learning AI at world gen (helped by a lot of already written background code) to generate realistic behavior in actors, or would that instantly kill any CPU?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 29, 2019, 05:05:03 pm
Will the new craft halls and updated temples also appear in generated sites such as hamlets, towns, hillock and mountain homes or is it something that can only occur in player forts?8/7/2019 devblog:
Quote
The necessary map work I was set to do this week is now mostly completed. That included bandit and mercenary forts, merchant company counting houses, guildhalls, monasteries, and improved necromancer towers. The necros still need a bit of work, but overall it's in good shape. As usual, actually creating the maps and populating them brought various bugs and nonsense to the surface, some of it very old. I fixed the problems that I found, with the occasional collapsed roof and infinite pit to the underworld along the way.
We've also been convinced by this process that doing the map rewrite as part of the Big Wait is necessary. For instance, I was able to get guildhalls and counting houses to appear in non-player dwarf forts, but it was an iffy thing, and there are bandaids all over the place. The inability to extend map code smoothly is going to inhibit a lot of what we want to do with magic and beyond, so we'll definitely be tackling that.
Limegreen for questions to Toady.
I have been thinking a lot lately about how fast technology and the way coding is done have progressed over the past decade, with things such as neural networks coming to mind, so I have a few questions based on this topic:
1. What technology or discovery (if any) do you wish you had available when you first started work on DF?
2. What newer technology would you like to implement at one point in DF?
3. What possible future technology are you most excited about, especially when it comes to developing DF?
4. I know this will be a weird comparison, but I feel DF may end up a lot like a space probe, where a project started way later will surpass it because of advancements in computers and programming. How would you feel if another team started another project like DF (so a fantasy world simulator-generator) and ended up "overtaking you"?
5.This a bit more specific but I would like to ask someone who has a lot more experience in coding than me. I know there is this discussion about how the AI in the world will adapt to new mechanics introduced by random magic systems (such as free teleportation for everyone making doors obsolete). I was wondering if it would be possible to use some sort of self-learning AI at world gen (helped by a lot of already written background code) to generate realistic behavior in actors, or would that instantly kill any CPU?
Post by: Untrustedlife on November 30, 2019, 12:21:12 am
Will the new craft halls and updated temples also appear in generated sites such as hamlets, towns, hillock and mountain homes or is it something that can only occur in player forts?Yes. He tries to avoid inconsistencies.
Speaking of inconsistencies, Tarn, i killed a bronze collosus , when i told the lady she said it was inevitable, but then i asked her what she thought of me and she said i was suddenly a legendary hero. Any plans to improve the responses?
(https://i.imgur.com/nDBMRYo.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ab5u9kW.png)
One of these is not like the other, and my only kill is the collosus.
Post by: Nopenope on December 01, 2019, 02:33:29 pm
Could you do a breakdown of how reputation works in adventure mode (different types, scales, actions required)? The wiki is very unclear.
Who gets an abstract 'account' in worldgen? Is it specific to sites, buildings, histfigs?
If I understand well, sabotage in worldgen is abstractly harming someone's 'account', and embezzling is transferring from one account to another. How does that manifest in fort mode? Does the fort also have an account?
What kind of hideouts do villains have? I read something about an abandoned monastery in the devlogs but are there other types of sites (apart from the ones that are inherent to histfigs like necro towers ordemon spires)
Do bandits have specific forts now or do they stay in camps?
How do the worldgen relationship variables such as loyalty, fear, trust etc. interplay with fort mode relationships and emotions? With adventurer reputation?
Sorry if I missed it, but are adventurers' ability to conduct their own plots (e.g. to steal artifacts) still on the table? What about fortress counter-espionage, will that entail stuff like assassinating histfigs offsite?
Do mercenary forts send visitors to your fort? In fact, what do they actually do post-wg? What about monasteries?
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 01, 2019, 03:51:15 pm
What gameplay role do priests have? Are they like tavern keepers?4. Villains can hide any place that is abandoned/unpopulated caves, abandoned villages, abandoned cities abandoned Merc forts, sewers, whatever. They don’t like, have places generated for them unless they can build it.(a castle a tower a fort etc) (Like a bandit fort, those are in the next version)And they wouldn’t build an abandoned monestary for example but they could go to one that already exists and make that their hideout.
Could you do a breakdown of how reputation works in adventure mode (different types, scales, actions required)? The wiki is very unclear.
Who gets an abstract 'account' in worldgen? Is it specific to sites, buildings, histfigs?
If I understand well, sabotage in worldgen is abstractly harming someone's 'account', and embezzling is transferring from one account to another. How does that manifest in fort mode? Does the fort also have an account?
What kind of hideouts do villains have? I read something about an abandoned monastery in the devlogs but are there other types of sites (apart from the ones that are inherent to histfigs like necro towers ordemon spires)
Do bandits have specific forts now or do they stay in camps?
How do the worldgen relationship variables such as loyalty, fear, trust etc. interplay with fort mode relationships and emotions? With adventurer reputation?
Sorry if I missed it, but are adventurers' ability to conduct their own plots (e.g. to steal artifacts) still on the table? What about fortress counter-espionage, will that entail stuff like assassinating histfigs offsite?
Do mercenary forts send visitors to your fort? In fact, what do they actually do post-wg? What about monasteries?
5.Yes bandit forts exist in the next version, though in sure some will stick with camps for variety.
6. Relationship variables are shared through the modes, he doesn’t do weird mode specific things like that it’s the same world same variables. He cares about maintaining the simulation. I imagine some dwarves will be conflicted etc about their situations etc as the personality’s and relationships react to each other.
7.Adventurer villains are in the next version.
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 01, 2019, 07:19:06 pm
1. What skills if any have already been slated for addition to adventure mode?
2. One of the most common maps made in any game are real world ones, Europe, North America, Africa etc and given that it is already possible to use advanced world gen to create and save "static" maps have you given any though to including some real world height maps in the Steam Release or do you think that is something for modders?
3. With the rise of organisations and the return of guilds I wondering if there are any plans for thing like the Assassin Guild, Thieves Guild or even a generic Adventurers Guild?
4. If these are not planned would they be mod-able?
5. How do you view Nobility and noble politics occurring? do Noble families act like organisations plotting and planning against one another or are they more like loose affiliations with no real goal?
6. With all the changes to adventure mode thanks to the addition of the party system I was wondering if it was now possible to choose what god you worship and how faithful you are?
7. What about choosing your adventurers description? as it is I (F) full random until I get large body for the added attack force.
8. With the addition of multiple lovers are mundane plots of petty grudges or jilted lovers seeking revenge on their own a thing? like hiring their own assassin and paying for it with a family heirloom with no overarching villain plot or corruption being needed?
9. I was also wondering are fighting pits and arenas planned? Arenas seem like one of the easiest ways to add a adventure mode "career" path.
10. With the addition of adventure mode parties is adventure mode receiving an "embark" screen where we can actually equip our adventurers before embarking on adventure?
11. If we are getting an adventure mode embark screen will we also be able to set the points available in advanced world gen like we can with fortress embarks?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 01, 2019, 07:24:10 pm
Quote
1. When? The far future, or next release?
. What skills if any have already been slated for addition to adventure mode?
2. One of the most common maps made in any game are real world ones, Europe, North America, Africa etc and given that it is already possible to use advanced world gen to create and save "static" maps have you given any though to including some real world height maps in the Steam Release or do you think that is something for modders?
3. With the rise of organisations and the return of guilds I wondering if there are any plans for thing like the Assassin Guild, Thieves Guild or even a generic Adventurers Guild?
4. If these are not planned would they be mod-able?
5. How do you view Nobility and noble politics occurring? do Noble families act like organisations plotting and planning against one another or are they more like loose affiliations with no real goal?
6. With all the changes to adventure mode thanks to the addition of the party system I was wondering if it was now possible to choose what god you worship and how faithful you are?
7. What about choosing your adventurers description? as it is I (F) full random until I get large body for the added attack force.
8. With the addition of multiple lovers are mundane plots of petty grudges or jilted lovers seeking revenge on their own a thing? like hiring their own assassin and paying for it with a family heirloom with no overarching villain plot or corruption being needed?
9. I was also wondering are fighting pits and arenas planned? Arenas seem like one of the easiest ways to add a adventure mode "career" path.
10. With the addition of adventure mode parties is adventure mode receiving an "embark" screen where we can actually equip our adventurers before embarking on adventure?
11. If we are getting an adventure mode embark screen will we also be able to set the points available in advanced world gen like we can with fortress embarks?
6. Yes (devnotes, don't think it mentions a level of faith option though).
8. Seems so (devnotes)
10,11. Yes. (Devnotes)
Post by: LordBaal on December 01, 2019, 07:26:18 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 01, 2019, 07:27:29 pm
Are you gonna tackle apprenticeship with this update? What about making workshops an area just like guildhalls?Area workshops are planned but will break save compatibility. So scheduled for next massive update when that tends to happen (Mythgen, but maybe Steam too).
Post by: Toady One on December 01, 2019, 10:22:33 pm
Quote from: GoblinCookie
With bribery now a thing, it seems to make sense to (re)introduce coins and the use thereof into fortress mode. Is there a specific reason you are not doing so, the development does not require the economy because the goods the dwarves buy with their money can simply be conjured into existence in the hands of visiting peddlers the same way the caravan's goods presently are? Is bribery going to be ruled out in fortress mode altogether or do you instead intent to have non-money based bribes by which actual goods are given to dwarves; that would seem to require gift-giving to exist normally so as to provide cover for this mechanic.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050864#msg8050864
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GoblinCookie (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8052369#msg8052369
It's more work, and there just isn't time - it's not crucial if the other methods are sufficient for now. We haven't implemented bribery yet in fort mode, among the available options, precisely because of the item-based side of it, which complicates things. I'm not sure if we'll get there.
Quote
Quote from: CodyoFortress mode question!
The blog mentions being able to "track down" and "send somebody after them" when it comes to villains. Does this mean sending one dwarf, or a military squad to capture a villain? If they can be captured, will they be escorted to one of your dungeon cells?
I'd find it really fun to capture my fortress's nemesis and put him on display somewhere. To ultimately give him some creative dwarven justice.Quote from: FantasticDorfCarrying on this question: "Can people who have been marked for arrest prior to leaving be pursued across the world map? As in to locate the identity of a were beast or fleeing vampire/villian/opportunistic artifact theif and then return them to the fortress in custody or otherwise."
I guess the devil is in the detail to how informal/formal the accusation whether player set on meta-evidence they know (saw the werebeast transform into the identity they're chasing or discovered the vampire by some means) or deduced from your dwarves witness statements and interrogation are credible to use.
We haven't done this yet, but it might end up being both. The way "army controllers" work, it doesn't matter if it's a squad or an agent/scout of some kind - the missing pieces are the interface for giving the orders and also recognizing the appointment of agents (probably in the occupations section as with site-wide messengers etc.) and their validity for certain mission types. The more "villainous plot like" the controller is, the more a single person fits the structures, though, and at some point, the squad stops working. Squad-based assassinations and captures are probably fine - we already have raids that are quite similar to this.
And yeah, assuming we get to these options, we were planning on just have them escorted on to the edge of the map and walked to a cell, just like the regular arrests, except that the squad member would need to be recognized for a time as a valid escorter.
And that should let you follow suspects off the map, yeah, but you'd need to set up the mission on the 'c' screen (or the new justice screen depending on how it works out). In the case of bringing somebody back, it could very well be a single fortress guard that leaves the map rather than an agent or military member. But we'll have to see what ends up happening since there could be a technical obstacle there.
Quote from: recon1o6
Speaking of traps, will Villains be able to start making lairs in our fort if they corrupt including traps, documents etc?
Ha ha, nothing like that happens.
Quote from: Su
will we be seeing armies demand to have specific residents of the fort turned over to them / executed on the spot?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8052087#msg8052087
We haven't done anything like this. The artifact demands and parley options have us a step closer to that kind of thing, but nope, not yet.
Quote
Quote from: Death DragonActions like flattery can increase trust but decrease respect, for example, depending on the personality of the NPC.Does that mean we can flatter and flirt with any random person in adventure mode?Quote from: Toady One devlog 7th of novemberYou can fill these jobs yourself with any worshipper you like - we thought it would be too cruel to randomly take one of your best dwarves away.I think this is too bad. 1: Because I was hoping for entities like religious organisations and craftguilds to be factions inside your fort that you don't have direct control over. 2: The question of if the ruler gets to assign a religious head or not is a classic conflict in history. 3: Because I think it gives your dwarves additional personality when they themselves decide they want to apply for a position like this.
Does manually assigning someone to the priest position cause a negative thought in your religious population similar to how overruling the vote for mayor does when you just manually assign a new mayor, or does assigning a priest work similar to how assigning a barkeeper works with no strings attached?
I assume you're intending to put off the work on the power and influence of these uncontrollable factions inside your fortress to when you get into the status/laws/etc update after magic, right?Quote from: VivalasTo add to that:
Is it possible that certain organized religions may petition to install their own priest instead when a petition is put through? This would possibly be an additional cool way in which outside agents can weasel their way into your fort, too. Also: what options or actions do villains in charge of a religious organization undertake to further their evil plans. Would an evil Cat Pope or whatever install agent priests all over in an attempt to start a cat uprising or some such ridiculous mischief?Quote from: therahedwigSo priesthood is a fulltime occupation? Do priests do anything in the fort(sermons, consolation, I guess other religious rituals are out of the question for now), or are they like barons and other nobles, in that they are not supossed to work but do because that nowork tag is currently bugged?
Ha ha, no flirting yet. And some of the actions are restricted to interrogations.
I understand the objections and various situations from history etc., but it's something that'll take a lot more effort to implement in a way that isn't game-breaking, I think. Taking a random dwarf away, especially in some of the earlier-game situations that can crop up in relatively religiously homogenous worlds, might be too serious. Eventually, we can do more, allow some negotiation and partial concessions etc. We do want these groups to feel powerful when justified, eventually.
Yeah, it's a full-time occupation. They should end up with a few tasks before the release, though I don't recall if that happened yet.
Quote from: Criperum
Is there a possibility to start a "war" between two vilians? Especially between player-vilian and AI controlled one?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8054026#msg8054026
Yeah, I suppose it depends on what you mean. We haven't yet implemented player-led versions of the war starting plot, but in terms of assassinations and so forth, and being hunted down, this is in the cards but not yet done.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Can player necromancers create the new constructed undead that you added a month or so back? What about the intelligent undead?
It would be a little odd compared to the rest of the game for the player necro to be incapable of one of the major things necromancers can do given the way you have treated inconsistencies like this previously(usually from what I’ve seen you don’t let these sorts of inconsistencies into your game (And I think that’s for a good reason))
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8053406#msg8053406
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8053441#msg8053441
Quote from: Criperum
Can player create a plot just to use it's powers to fight another plot?
We haven't done player-initiated plots yet, but the idea is that these are simply tools to use as you like. If orchestrating an assassination stops a plot, then it works out that way. Hopefully everything will end up being versatile.
Quote from: DerMeister
How looks harpy and ogre eyes? How ogre and harpy see?
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Quote from: Untrustedlife
In the upcoming version evil regions can gloriously spread outwords from necromancer towers. In adventure mode in the current version the player can become a necromancer the player can also use their zombies to build a camp. So will evil regions spread outwards from these sorts of camps If the player takes some time to build up the zombie population?
A while ago you talked about “really bad things” causing a region to turn evil (whether by sacrificing many creatures with a small age number, or some other terrible catastrophe. Is that still planned and will players be able to do this?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8054143#msg8054143
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Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8054285#msg8054285
As I recall, it won't happen for adv interactions because it doesn't tie the raising event to a site you are in, since you just raise things wherever you do it and the more abstracted versions tie it back to goings-on at a site. I didn't do anything with regions turning evil for other reasons than the ones mentioned in the log, and at this point that'll likely be out in myth/magic country.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
With all this swaying of loyalties going on, have you considered the reverse? Time and again in fantasy fiction, the "infiltrator" makes friends, falls in love and finds his/her loyalties to the Big Boss conflicted. With love, respect and loyalty messing up our critter's brains now, seems like this is quite possible.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8054957#msg8054957
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FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8055082#msg8055082
We're sitting in the muck of this now, and somebody having conflicted loyalties is one of the situations we've been aiming for, as this is story fodder. However, it's tricky to get people to think about all of the things they should be thinking about all of the time in every situation, so it's just a matter of continued work. There are already situations in w.g. where the infiltrator puts themselves in this position (with a lover or friend), and for fort mode, hmm, I don't recall how far their social relations advance in the regular chat function. It's hard enough for dwarves that I assume not much happens there. But of course, their, like, uncle could already be in the fort when they start. They might even be trying to flip their uncle. These situations should be amplified and shown off, really, and it does set their default trust/etc. values differently when there's a relationship with a family member, but it isn't something you'll notice yet, especially in the fort where we don't show conversations etc. I'm not sure if interrogation will get at any of this yet. But, well, another bit headed in the right direction, slowly.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Will we have any meaningful interactions to the dialogue interrogators have with POW's and other non-agents caught in cages?
We are just coming upon that, so I'm not 100% sure if it'll all be sheriff-led. That seems less interesting, but we'll see what's feasible now - we don't have the whole conversation interface from adv mode to lean on for various reasons, so it'd be more like those diplomacy screens, and that may or may not work for this purpose currently. As stated in the previous response, it would be very good to get way more conversation stuff in here and at a few other points, rather than just the occasional shout in combat and personality screen thought bubbles. But a full conversation integration is too much of a project for this time.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Can you build temples or temple complexes to specific religions before being petitioned or has the interface changed in the new version? Right now I find that making a temple for each god keeps dwarves happier than having the one all-purpose temple (not scientifically tested). So, I'd probably do this anyway way before any priest asks me to.
Also, do priests and high priests suffer from jealousy over the value of their temple compared with other temples? That still happens with nobles and their room value, doesn't it?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8055341#msg8055341
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8055362#msg8055362
You can set them up in advance for any organized religion present in the fort, as I recall.
We haven't done anything interesting with priests quibbling, but of course the whole hope of these subgroups was to eventually get them to provide some varied texture for fort life. Nothing yet though!
Quote from: Untrustedlife
If i recall correctly adventurer mounts are in the upcoming version. If so, how does one get a mount, do they have to start with one if they want one or is there a way to purchase them? Also , does riding it make you move faster ion the world travel map?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8055664#msg8055664
Yeah, as Shonai_Dweller says, we haven't implemented taming or purchasing. There was that whole undead mount discussion from before, ha ha, so I guess there is technically another way to get one. Yeah, riding matters vs. speed.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Talking of party set up, did you say you were going to add a save button to party creation like we get with dwarf mode setup? I know it's more complex than a standard "save" feature what with availability of animal people and certain types of equipment and so on in each world, but it would be nice to get a basic setup saved and then just have to tweak the details.
Kind of related to this suggestion:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173825.0
I didn't add a party save button. It's a reasonable idea, though as you say, certain differences will need to be accounted for, and there are quite a few more things that can currently be tweaked about an adventurer (personality etc.) though it all lives in the same "character sheet" object as the dwarf mode starting dwarves.
Quote from: Jack_Caboose
As the mythgen update will add artifacts with actual effects, how far will this control extend in terms of mods? Would it be possible to, for example, have a library of user-defined artifacts (with set names, effects, materials, etc) that will be guaranteed to show up in a world?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8055709#msg8055709
Yeah, doing specific user-defined <anything> is on the editor side of things, and we're planning on that in terms of the architecture, but we're not sure when we'll actually have them, since that's an additional large chunk to an already large large initial release.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Any plans to increase the depth of the Adventure mode "Bard" playstyle? Social skills are getting alot of new mechanics and I was wondeirng if theres any plans to further improve the performance aspect of this? Rather then just the social part.
Not immediately, no. But yeah, it doesn't feel like it's quite at even an initial stage, and there are various broken aspects about it. I'm not sure yet where, more broadly, the next push toward non-confrontational playstyles will reside, but it's something we are interested in.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Adventurer investigations is still ongoing, right? What's the plan for when you finally track down a villain at the top of the network? How will the player know? I imagine someone playing the new interrogation game for hours while the villain adamantly denies working for anyone without ever realising they're telling the truth. Some pay-off would be nice. Not just, well he's dead, did I win? Did I miss a clue?
Yeah, we've felt time-crunched and wanted to get our fort flags planted, but we're working on adv investigations. Ha ha, yes, it is one of the unsatisfying things about conspiracies and spy-hunting and all that, the imperfect information and knowing when you've accomplished something important. This has been a central issue to some of our side projects, and now that (as usual) side project stuff gets into DF, the issues reside here, and we've been mulling them over. I think it's probably valid for now to signpost it a bit, since tops of networks are easy enough for the game to recognize and the feeling of lingering paranoia is probably a little too realistic to be fun, he he he.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Any plans for improving the currently existing structures like catacombs and dungeons? Will villains hang out in those places if they don't have somewhere better to hang out? Any additional plans for improving them, such as making catacombs more "undead filled" rather then a maze of non-animated corpses skeletons and sarcophagi with the occassional mummy for example could intelligent undead move in down there??
Since some evil biomes spread now could they then overtake a human city/town and inadvertently fill up the catacombs with undead in that way. Could it destroy the town making it a ruin with catacombs filled with undead? Or perhaps be a vector for a new “slay the undead in the catacombs” agreement. Much like the current attack the tower trouble.
I didn't change any of this for this time, and I'm not sure when it'll be revisited. The map rewrite touches everything, but it's hard to say what'll happen there since I'll be more just getting things to work in a new system and doing improvements when and where I can easily do so.
Hmm, I don't think the vegetation death part of the evil biome is recognized by w.g. farming, just the site placer, since it didn't know it would need to check for future changes. So expansion will halt, but existing towns will survive currently.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Do the plans/current work for fortress mode Villainy include any standing measures the overseer can actively set up to stop, or at least complicate, plots, rather than passive measures in the form of reports to the justice screen that the overseer might potentially notice before the criminal has left the fortress?
I'm thinking of things like guards that actually stop thieves/assassins from accessing restricted areas, rather than just note that they stole/murdered the artifact/monarch (while asleep in the bedroom), and anyone raising alarms (rather than just filed a report) when an outsider is seen carrying off an artifact (that hasn't been given away, of course, although I wouldn't mind if some dorfs would eventually be grumpy about that as well).
Obviously investigations would be active, but they'd have to be based on indications, and so doesn't fulfill this need. The fortress has long been short on standing means to protect against (visiting) vampires and spies (I've never actually seen a "real" spy, but plenty of goblin civ performance troupe members reporting back, as seen by invaders bypassing traps).
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8057861#msg8057861
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8057866#msg8057866
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8057994#msg8057994
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Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058032#msg8058032
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058042#msg8058042
Access was a big part of our planning and is abstractly calc'd for w.g. plots. Over in play, it was going to start with a revamped guard system for adv mode, which would turn into a new guard system for fort mode. Now, time is short and this may not happen for the release. Using the fortress guards to generate more witness reports is a decent enough way to mimic this (so posting a guard by the artifact pedestals is meaningful, and structuring their placement with theft in mind), but it certainly doesn't have the heft or utilty of actually stopping people and enforcing restrictions.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Sorry for the large amount of questions this time around, in your talk you mentioned how mannerisms dont really effect things in the current version of df, now that you have added interrogation, will mannerisms come up? Will you add this for fort mode investigations/adventurer investigation? That would make it impact the story Alot. Also when will clapping be added, it is defined in the raws but ive never seen it happen. Unlike spitting which happens all the time.
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058023#msg8058023
Despite this being what they were added for in the first place, I haven't done anything with mannerisms yet. They'd need to be incorporated more fully for it to work out here, so they are sort of fighting against themselves and it'll be hard to find time to fix it.
What's this about raw clapping? I couldn't figure out what you meant - search just found the word 'clap' in the language file.
Quote from: squamous
1. In a previous FOTF you mentioned the DEMON tag would become usable by modders. Would this allow modders to create their own dark fortress rulers or just make demons that live underground? There seems to be a difference between the two, but I might be overthinking things.
2. My memory might be betraying me here but was it mentioned that caravans would spawn in the world now? Not to like actually serve as an economy yet but just travel between towns as a flavor thing. Could I rob them?
3. So necromancers will teach their secrets to willing co-conspirators if their personalities allow it. Would a type of secret holder who does not live in a tower also be capable of gaining disciples? Like, if I were to make a worldgen secret that did not make the user immortal but taught them how to throw fireballs and the like, could that person teach others how to do it? Right now, that sort of thing only happens in towers to my knowledge, so I'm curious.
4. On a similar note, it was mentioned how necromancers could reanimate sapient undead or special experimental monsters, which could gain independence and flee their master to wander the wilderness. Would it be possible to repurpose these interactions for transformed beings rather than reanimated ones? Like for example, say I made a wizard who could transmute corpses into, just for example, elves, would they function the same as a conventionally reanimated lieutenant? Or some other monster. Essentially, would it be possible to create wizards who create new forms of living monsters and races in addition to the vanilla undead ones?
5. What compels an NPC to wear gloves/armwear/cloaks? I've noticed some of them do, but some of them don't. I can't seem to find an underlying logic to it. Is it random?
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PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058157#msg8058157
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Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058170#msg8058170
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058175#msg8058175
1. Yeah, UNIQUE_DEMON is available. I have no idea if it works. It looks like the only tags restricted now are "GENERATED" which marks a creature as coming from the generation function, and SOURCE_HFID and SOURCE_ENID which refer to a historical id number for the generation. So everything that can be out is out, for creatures.
2. No caravans for the next release. I'm not sure what that might have been.
3. Ah, I only added the immortality inducement, so other teachy bits will work as currently, I think.
4. I can't think of a way to do that with the new stuff. They just don't think to create new populations with other interactions, and anything the player does happens on a person-by-person basis rather than establishing a pop.
5. In the same site? It's all based on temperature as I recall. But maybe somebody that moved from another pop is semi-buggily using their original home's temperature instead of the new spot's?
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Well i dont know if this is a sneaky hint or not regarding whether any subtle changes to unit inventories are being implemented, because that kind of action doesn't really habitually happen, often preferring to keep things they interact with in hands and have a little freakout when they're holding a mug and a object in the other for instance they can't just hook on their belt or put on their person like a player adventurer can with generous inventory.
Very rarely ever swapping or putting on back weapons they're using (opaquely connected to armor layer room space or whether two weapons being stored clash it seems like), and reacting to a very specific situation like crossbowdwarves changing weapon to melee (which can be micro'd like sending them to a training range just to revert back to active crossbow-weapon but its unreliable and single type of weapon dwarves are preferred for novice soldiers).
"If the infiltrators (more to say also covering spies/questers) bring a outfit as part of their disguise or profession attire that's bulk (lots of things already attached and full Armor layer %, posing as a mercenary for instance) and wear the artifact on their way out, have you made any contingency to have them trade equipment or will they walk very slowly on their way out trying to wear a platinum helmet without taking the copper one they had on before off."
I would hope that a discarded helmet, and witness reports of the dwarf/agent wearing a stolen helmet would help piece together a unanimous decision from the kind of meta-data the player sees about ownership and the gui stuff being chucked around under the improved system. But i don't think anybody really knows yet at what stage dwarves will get suspicious of the agent's intentions.
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058380#msg8058380
Yeah, they normally just carry it in their hand, but the sheathing/strapping of weapons is a special case, so they did that with the pick. I think a helmet thief would keep it in their hand, without trying to put it on their head, helmet or not.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Do you think it will ever be feasible (post-mythgen, of course) for a player's various DF worlds to form a sort of "multiverse" similar to that of D&D? In the sense that different worlds generated within a single dataset could be connected in various ways and perhaps even have magical travel between some of them be possible? And if so, is this something you would actually have any interest in pursuing (which is perhaps the more important question)?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058546#msg8058546
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058581#msg8058581
Yeah, as people have mentioned, it's tricky if you want them all to be doing stuff, and any non-primary worlds would need to be kept small. It might be possible with some effort to take two small worlds and merge them into a single save file with portals, etc., and we've tossed around some ideas. But there are so many possible info/object/mod conflicts etc. that is might be a true pain to implement. Hopefully the easier versions, like running ten pockets as part of the same myth set/world but having them go their separate ways during history gen and then interconnecting them variously as you play a character or site in any of them, will capture a lot of what's interesting about the actual multiverse case. But it would be cool to get at things like alternate timelines or multiple versions of the same character.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
One last question, more of a fun one. How much were you inspired by daggerfall? The impact on adventure mode is palpable. And in my opinion thats amazing.
Also when will you add openable/enterable windows in adventure mode so we can do a cat burgler style thing in order to enter the villains tower or something? by like climbing the wall then entering the window.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058712#msg8058712
Hmm, yeah, it's hard to say, really. A lot of the things that look like influences from Daggerfall can probably be traced to Ultima/roguelikes/pnp/etc. and other stuff from before. Though we did play Daggerfall a lot! So direct influence is also certain. It depends on the specifics. C Dragslay had large maps with several towns and things before Daggerfall came out in '96 - Arena also had those but we never played or saw Arena (until this or last year.) The scale was more from Starflight, for us, if anywhere, and several 80s games had overland travel maps. And the many-building town maps also have earlier sources, though there I think Daggerfall was probably one of the things in mind, sort of. It's hard to tease it all apart from this distance. I may be forgetting something, but I think the spell editing system was probably the most influential thing about Daggerfall for us, and it's definitely part of what led us to our current plans - we had played Spellcraft and a few other earlier games that had hints of this, but Daggerfall was definitely the most brazen one we personally encountered. Stuff like vampire/werewolf players is going to be hard for me to separate from other influences - it is very similar to Daggerfall, but I don't recall if it was even in mind when we did that, since we were in an overall horror mode at that point and player-monster parity is more of a Roguelike/Ultima thread for us. But if we said, ooo you should be able to be a vampire in adv mode, and it didn't come out of fort mode thinking, Daggerfall would have been the thing, and it no doubt came up at some point. Ha ha, it's a stew and I don't remember. But maybe I mentioned it on here ten years ago? I wouldn'r surprise me if it were a direct line through.
I have no idea when architecture is changing, generally. I've actually been read a few architecture books since I last thought about it, as I was lamenting to a friend my lack of knowledge in the area, and they got me one for Christmas -- I recall somebody also mailed me one! The suggestions forum is just one of many avenues, ha ha. But yeah, the map rewrite is the next spot, but as I wrote earlier, it's not possible to promise much on any particular existing feature there, since so much will need to be done.
Quote from: scourge728
Is something going wrong behind the scenes that causes the forums to keep going down?
Obviously there's some kind of problem, but I have no expertise here. I can't tell if it's the size of the forum when it is doing routine maintenance vs. resources available (there are large CPU spikes like clockwork which come from the routine automated maintenance, I think), and that sometimes gets in way of the server critters or what.
Post by: Toady One on December 01, 2019, 10:22:50 pm
Quote from: notquitethere
Will a smaller range of intelligent animalpeople be generated in world generation, or is the plan to always have all kinds of animalpeople appear in every world generated? Seems like a smaller range of civilisation-tier animalpeople would make for more distinct generated settings.
...
Maybe my question should be:
Will animalpeople ever be civilisation-level species on the same tier as dwarves, elves, humans and goblins?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059098#msg8059098
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059132#msg8059132
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059174#msg8059174
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059196#msg8059196
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059201#msg8059201
notquitethere (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059206#msg8059206
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059209#msg8059209
This is one of those cases where our initial plans didn't get much of an implementation, and now we're just going to blow it all up anyway with the myth stuff so it's just as well, in the way described by some of the responses, pretty much. We've given some thought to universes where we have the current diversity vs. other universes where certain species are fully prioritized (as in most settings.) We did this a bit in advance with the pops that move to towns and thus are playable in adv mode and get more heroes/soldiers etc. overall, but the full step up to civs is in there. It wouldn't surprise me if we got some full-level civs in the myth pass, and then we saw the proper definitions for nomadic/etc. groups in the following push, as mentioned in the replies.
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Quote from: Shonai_DwellerRandomly jumping back to mounts (so many new things to play with in the upcoming release!). The new mechanics for controlling mounts also applies to npc mounts now (in fortress mode unless adventurer npc mounts have also been added), right? So mounts will go where the rider wants to go, rather than where they might want to go themselves? I just want to check that this solves the whole amphibious mounts pathing through water and killing their rider issue (unless the rider stops being able to control the mount for whatever reason, I suppose).Quote from: UntrustedlifeWhy would he change how mounts work in one context while not changing the other. Toady avoids doing weird game mode specific things like that as according to him they are a nightmare to deal with. So i imagine he also fixed those. Also how do your adventruer companions with mounts act, because you can have that now, if they have AI that takes that into account so do invaders. If they dont, invaders wont.
Oh wow, i just came up with another question.
How does the game treat retired characters with mounts, do the mounts just hang out in the village then with their hist-fig names or do they become stray, or do they just dissappear?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059479#msg8059479
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059647#msg8059647
Ha ha, I don't think the mount change made it all the way to fort mode. It's all the same underneath, but the AI layers are different, so this isn't surprising. But I'll check to see if it'll be quick to turn on.
I think they'll hang out in the village and not become stray, but if their master travels or moves, they might not come along.
Quote from: MalroktheIII
1:If kidnapping is a possibility, will my fortress be able to kidnap enemy leaders (or just historical figures in general)?
2:Along the same lines, will captured enemies/caged sentients be able to get themselves free/take over the fortress from within by using my dwarves?
3:If vampires/necromancers generally become evil by default, will my vampire necromancer fortress end up spawning hundreds of new villains?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059923#msg8059923
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059953#msg8059953
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8059961#msg8059961
1: Yeah, if we get there, it likely won't be restricted, though there is the issue of which names you should even know.
2: Hmm, I don't think caged critters have access to any chat, and even the chained ones don't have the proper infiltration information up and running. So it would take a different explicit push in that direction which we haven't done.
3: Ha ha, well, I'm not sure exactly what would happen. As long as they get back in network building mode, I imagine they'd start subordinating each other so it wouldn't be a hundred separate networks at odds with each other. A giant vampire necromancer fortress was bound to be trouble for the world over time.
Quote from: FrankVill
It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version if it existed right now (perhaps the exception would be a quantum computer or a super server).
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060158#msg8060158
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060170#msg8060170
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060174#msg8060174
Yeah, I don't have any particular criteria or protocol I use. I update my computer when it breaks, so it usual tends to be fairly old, until it breaks, at which point it becomes fairly new for a sec. Being complicated doesn't slow things down much, compared to just having a large number of agents, so our plans our mostly low impact and fine.
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Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWhat do you see as the purpose of a guild in a fortress? Without an economy or any real trade competition, they are....what? Social clubs?
From a Dorf point of view temples are a thing, because dorfs have religious needs plus gathering/socializing. Taverns are a thing because dorfs have a need for entertainment plus gathering/socializing. Guilds are a thing....because...demands provide a gameplay challenge (same as nobles)?
Apologies for slight pessimism, I wasn't around when guilds were last a thing.
Oh, and:
Will entertainers have a chance to get together and demand stuff? Seems like with priests demanding better temples and guilds demanding better guildhalls, entertainers lead by the tavernkeeper might demand bigger, better dance floors and especially more instruments for the tavern (put a stop to all that beatboxing). #notasuggestionatall
And, sorry, one more thing:
Are the guild numbers 10 and 25 moddable?Quote from: PatrikLundellAre you considering making the guild formation/progression thresholds player adjustable?
This is, of course, a thinly veiled request... The issue I see is that small fortresses (like the ones I've played) won't get those numbers (I'm not that worried about the full guild complex one for my case). Also, depending on how they behave, players may want to disable them for one reason or another, and an easy way to do that is to jack the formation threshold up through the roof.
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060315#msg8060315
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060317#msg8060317
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060363#msg8060363
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060364#msg8060364
Yeah, the guilds are certainly a bit early, considering all that they could be hooked into and what they'd need to justify their existence on a historical basis. They were even stranger before - there was a death cult that demanded quality tombs for living people, as I recall, or something like that. And weapon cults that demanded weapon production? I imagine this would be like the new military orders, now, which aren't in fort mode yet but are sitting there to be done (and how does that intersect with squads and player militaries... an open question.) We're starting with some reasonable requests, but we're hoping that it isn't just about requests and negative reactions - people mentioned the skill demonstrations we'd like to add, and the longer term goals like apprenticeships for young dwarves and such things all fit in here. Toward life texture and possible political conflicts and such things. But the early bit is just sorta a marker, and it sprang up from the w.g. addition we did for link forming.
Ha ha, I haven't done anything with entertainers, though they should get more clout if they deserve it. I imagine that would depend on having enough fans or friends in high places, whereas the guild workers can shut down your fort directly, once they are so empowered.
Yeah, I should be init-ifying the most simple and player-facing numbers like this, though I often fail to do so. You'll have these, anyway!
Quote from: therahedwig
Are guilds per job type or per job category? (So are we going to see farmer's and woodworking's guilds, or are we going to see pottery and carpentry guilds? Or Both?)
Will trade corporations also make an appearance in player forts? They're separate from craft guilds, right?
Do you think we'll see prophets and religious persecution show up in player forts? Or can we assume all prophets to be hacks?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060373#msg8060373
therahedwig (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060382#msg8060382
There are broad guilds and narrow guilds, both kinds.
Yeah, merchant companies are separate and we haven't done anything with them. Time may not permit. We were thinking of letting them establish a counting house and move a factor into your fort, which would have the benefit of adding an extra caravan with them or something, as a simple step. But we might not get to even that, especially if we'd get into some kind of multi-depot trouble with it etc.
As I recall, there are pilgrims to temples in the current version? The villains come as those. I didn't add new non-villain fort visitor types, even though w.g. infiltrators can be prophets. Didn't do any fort persecution -- that's all ultimately state action when it goes down in the game currently, anyway, if I remember, so it'd be player-driven. Though priest sermons may end up going bad as they do in w.g., which builds bad sentiment there.
Quote from: therahedwig
Does using the dice at a shrine count as communicating with that deity in terms of needs?
Nope! I suppose it's very complicated if it should or not, or how other rituals fit in with that particular need. We'd need more information on how relationships with the deity are defined I guess, or the need needs to be broadened or respect those.
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Quote from: Flying TeasetsWill the guilds restrict entrance to their profession and hide trade secrets like their historical counterparts?Quote from: FantasticDorfI feel some of my questions i have right now feel kind of premature until we recieve some clarity about what exactly guild members do, possibility of visitors and any sort of special functions i feel Toady wants to keep hush hush.
Its nice that guild halls seem to have a working men's club theme about sociabilty (though in the terms of organised dwarf labor, there is no such gender distinction) that will be helpful. And that you seem relatively confident in their ability to talk amongst themselves in the meeting areas.
Are dwarves driven to make and join guilds based on personality facets (appreciation of craftmanship) or is it just hardwired related to experience?
I would be suprised if it wasn't the case, but it'd be particularly interesting to see a modding applied race swap-out or player grooming of civilization values because it inferrs that lazy/unappreciative dwarves do not make or assotiate with guilds, and that the mechanic could potentially be applied in reverse for negative value required organisations
Be assured, players will take the *utmost* care in censuring high nature value druid cults full of peace and nature loving brainwashed dwarves.
Seperately -Will we have any control over the profession training regime? As im worried about my dwarves spending more time training to do a job than actually working to earn xp, as well as some discretion a player could personally bring.
Mainly thinking of the examples of military training, where if you can tease the military schedule screen into doing what you want through the gui menu's you can essentially create the training scenario you desire including lowering/raising the number of participants and selecting individuals to train specifically with one another which often works out well.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060431#msg8060431
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060533#msg8060533
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060544#msg8060544
It's all boring currently - we'd like them to do more, as stated elsewhere in this FotF, but they don't currently. We haven't done the skill demonstrations yet so I'm not sure what that will look like - if it is an augmented form of socializing in guild spaces, it shouldn't impact time too badly.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Do green dwarves (rangers, hunters, etc) get a guild? Because demands for a room full of animal parts on pedestals sounds kind of cool.
If I have an opulent guildhall with everything a dwarf from a farming related profession could ever want, will I still be getting stressed dwarves demanding a regular sub-chapter guildhall for the 10 brewers?
They get a guild, yeah, though I haven't gotten to any of the pedestal stuff. It would be pretty cool for them to move trophies there.
The brewers want recognition! It's a matter of dignity. But yeah, it is a touch odd when there is just one subchapter and they also make up most of the broad group - it doesn't really feel like a two-guild situation and it will probably be tweaked later, once we get a feel for all the weird cases.
Quote from: Beag
Will the new craft halls and updated temples also appear in generated sites such as hamlets, towns, hillock and mountain homes or is it something that can only occur in player forts?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060856#msg8060856
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8060939#msg8060939
Yeah, they appear in sites.
Quote from: CatG0d
I have been thinking a lot lately about how fast technology and the way coding is done have progressed over the past decade, with things such as neural networks coming to mind, so I have a few questions based on this topic:
1. What technology or discovery (if any) do you wish you had available when you first started work on DF?
2. What newer technology would you like to implement at one point in DF?
3. What possible future technology are you most excited about, especially when it comes to developing DF?
4. I know this will be a weird comparison, but I feel DF may end up a lot like a space probe, where a project started way later will surpass it because of advancements in computers and programming. How would you feel if another team started another project like DF (so a fantasy world simulator-generator) and ended up "overtaking you"?
5.This a bit more specific but I would like to ask someone who has a lot more experience in coding than me. I know there is this discussion about how the AI in the world will adapt to new mechanics introduced by random magic systems (such as free teleportation for everyone making doors obsolete). I was wondering if it would be possible to use some sort of self-learning AI at world gen (helped by a lot of already written background code) to generate realistic behavior in actors, or would that instantly kill any CPU?
1-3. I don't really keep up on this sort of thing. Certainly if I had more education and skills in terms of, say, multithreading or code architecture when I was starting out, that would have been better, but in terms of specific technologies I just don't have any idea.
4. Hasn't this happened several times already? It depends on what you mean. We expected to become irrelevant fairly quickly when we were starting out, and that doesn't seem to have happened, specifically, but there are lots of related projects out there more played than ours.
5. It's well beyond me and I think it would be difficult to get it working and feasible. Even ignoring the magic etc., just getting people to react to a normal situation and change etc. is quite difficult, and we take little baby steps to make things better. It'll be enough if the game even works once it gets very strange in certain magic universes, ha ha ha.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Speaking of inconsistencies, Tarn, i killed a bronze collosus , when i told the lady she said it was inevitable, but then i asked her what she thought of me and she said i was suddenly a legendary hero. Any plans to improve the responses?
It's just not done most places. As you know, "It was inevitable" is everywhere, and it just indicates something they don't send through any kind of thought routine most of the time. I have no idea when I'll next work on it.
Quote from: Nopenope
What gameplay role do priests have? Are they like tavern keepers?
Could you do a breakdown of how reputation works in adventure mode (different types, scales, actions required)? The wiki is very unclear.
Who gets an abstract 'account' in worldgen? Is it specific to sites, buildings, histfigs?
If I understand well, sabotage in worldgen is abstractly harming someone's 'account', and embezzling is transferring from one account to another. How does that manifest in fort mode? Does the fort also have an account?
What kind of hideouts do villains have? I read something about an abandoned monastery in the devlogs but are there other types of sites (apart from the ones that are inherent to histfigs like necro towers ordemon spires)
Do bandits have specific forts now or do they stay in camps?
How do the worldgen relationship variables such as loyalty, fear, trust etc. interplay with fort mode relationships and emotions? With adventurer reputation?
Sorry if I missed it, but are adventurers' ability to conduct their own plots (e.g. to steal artifacts) still on the table? What about fortress counter-espionage, will that entail stuff like assassinating histfigs offsite?
Do mercenary forts send visitors to your fort? In fact, what do they actually do post-wg? What about monasteries?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8061539#msg8061539
We still need to finish the tasks, but they should be different from tavern keepers and actually be beneficial in terms of stress reduction. Unless we make them talk shit about other groups in their sermons like w.g. priests do. That would be uncharitable of them.
Rep: in the currently released version, there are 32 sorts, with corresponding utterances, but they aren't equal or even necessarily numeric. It's all handled dynamically based on incident/rumor/entity-membership knowledge, so it can be slippery to pin things down, especially in the cases where somebody has died, since people can go a few levels deep to ascertain what they think about that (and still too often end up with nothing.) Once events/etc. go stale, a simple numeric reputation is captured for those events, and that lives inside entities and historical figures that are thinking about a given person (some events are entity level, some hf level, some both.) The utterances are shifted in ranges 1-24, 25-49, 50-74, 75-99, 100+, oftentimes, so many reputations have five verbal levels. So for example, you get 25 hero points for reuniting two people if the thinker has a positive feeling about either of them, or a positive entity affiliation with either - you get 100 hero points from either of the reunited people regardless of affiliation. Whereas an entity itself gives you a hero rep for reuniting people with positions, and that is felt by all members -- this should arguably be extended to anybody with membership, but if there's a reason I didn't do that it is currently lost to time. And so on. We do have the conversation people try to give the top reason they feel you have a rep of a given kind, but we can surely do more.
Entities and historical figures currently. It is very abstract and not stored in a site/building location at all.
We don't embezzle in fort mode yet - we just have them steal stuff so that it actually matters. Not sure we'll do more for this time.
Hideouts: there are a few new ones like the monasteries, (return of) castles, and merc/bandit forts. There are also the city towers (and city houses, but those look the same as they did before.) The necro towers are revamped. Don't remember if there were others.
Yeah, large-enough bandit groups have forts.
Ha ha, the new variables are just a mess of new roll modifiers etc. with some new utterances, changed upon certain actions. It mostly comes in during the traitor conversion (which is a giant mess of equations, but I've added a lot of tracing for history event/evidence purposes for once, so you can see some of it) and interrogation currently, so it's not a broad thing. If it works out well, it'll spread out and become more integrated.
Adv villains are on the table, and also one of the things that might have to be put off, depending on time. This month will determine a lot of things. The Steam clock is ticking (in an actual deadline-like way to a meaningful extent), so we must get moving - it has been more than a year and I haven't started real coding there yet, since we've been winding up this release in typical fashion. But we'll return to the big ticket items we miss before leaving again for the Big Wait.
We haven't yet integrated full mercenary companies or monasteries in fort mode. Mercs can be individually hired post w.g. for plots, but the big civs don't engage with companies for their wars yet. This is one of the possible guild/temple/etc.-like additions for fort mode, and we'll see what we get! It would be fairly easy to get a villain or civ to hire a merc company to attack your fort, for instance, the way things are now, but it might be for later.
Quote from: JesterHell696
1. What skills if any have already been slated for addition to adventure mode?
2. One of the most common maps made in any game are real world ones, Europe, North America, Africa etc and given that it is already possible to use advanced world gen to create and save "static" maps have you given any though to including some real world height maps in the Steam Release or do you think that is something for modders?
3. With the rise of organisations and the return of guilds I wondering if there are any plans for thing like the Assassin Guild, Thieves Guild or even a generic Adventurers Guild?
4. If these are not planned would they be mod-able?
5. How do you view Nobility and noble politics occurring? do Noble families act like organisations plotting and planning against one another or are they more like loose affiliations with no real goal?
6. With all the changes to adventure mode thanks to the addition of the party system I was wondering if it was now possible to choose what god you worship and how faithful you are?
7. What about choosing your adventurers description? as it is I (F) full random until I get large body for the added attack force.
8. With the addition of multiple lovers are mundane plots of petty grudges or jilted lovers seeking revenge on their own a thing? like hiring their own assassin and paying for it with a family heirloom with no overarching villain plot or corruption being needed?
9. I was also wondering are fighting pits and arenas planned? Arenas seem like one of the easiest ways to add a adventure mode "career" path.
10. With the addition of adventure mode parties is adventure mode receiving an "embark" screen where we can actually equip our adventurers before embarking on adventure?
11. If we are getting an adventure mode embark screen will we also be able to set the points available in advanced world gen like we can with fortress embarks?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8061602#msg8061602
1. For next time, some of the speaking skills are used now, and there's the new intrigue skill which can come up in interrogation. At the same time, I allowed the taking of any civ skill, for the new character sheet background purposes. They are not used yet.
2. That seems more like a mod thing, since we don't have any close real-world analogues, unlike a game like, say, Civ.
3-4. The new military orders fill some of these roles now. We haven't added them to fort mode yet.
5. In some technical way, this happens a bit now with villains plotting coups in certain civs of which they are a part, but they should be more "aware" of it, and their broader affilitiations for it to carry over. But I think that'll keep some intentionality in it. But as for whether they are loose or bonded seems like it should depend on the value set as much as anything.
6,8,10-11. As Shonai_Dweller confirmed, yeah.
7. Nah, this is still elusive for annoying technical reasons to do with how 'genes' are stored and tied to descriptions, but if we had a touch of time we'd just blow that up and let the mismatched kids happen at this point, since it would be cool to let you set it.
9. Yeah, we've wanted them for years. Just never seem to get there.
Quote from: LordBaal
Are you gonna tackle apprenticeship with this update? What about making workshops an area just like guildhalls?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8061604#msg8061604
Yeah, workshops too big to bite off for now. Apprenticeships too, ha ha.
Post by: clinodev on December 01, 2019, 10:42:22 pm
I see a lot of excitement in the broader community about religion and guild changes! I'm definitely looking forward to them myself; I've been joking that you're unknowingly implementing my personal play style and role play as core mechanics, :D
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 01, 2019, 11:15:25 pm
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 02, 2019, 03:02:09 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 02, 2019, 03:40:43 am
Thanks for the answers Toady and Shonai.All I do is dig up answers Toady's already given. :)
Post by: therahedwig on December 02, 2019, 02:28:09 pm
Good luck with getting done what you want to have done this month! I myself am neutral towards adventure mode villains, but that's also because I just suck at role playing evil, but I can totally understand you'd want to have players to be able to push as well as pull in the same release.
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 02, 2019, 03:08:26 pm
All I do is dig up answers Toady's already given. :)
It still helps both Toady, myself and others so it fits.
Post by: sly_urist on December 02, 2019, 03:47:46 pm
I am currently making my own tileset for the game. With the upcoming graphical release, are we going to be able to finally have gendered tiles? If so, will we be able to have male and female tiles for each profession? Secondly, if this is happening, will you be adding trans gendered to dwarfs to the game that use tiles from the opposing gender (or even allow a third androgynous gender)?
Also, are we going to be allowed to now have ghost and zombie tiles for specific professions? I.e. a tile for a male miner zombie and a different tile for a female farmer ghost?
Lastly, will we be able to have custom tiles for forgotten beast\titan\secret-fun-thing subtypes (such as separate tiles for Sauropod and Spider beasts), and will we be able to assign tiles (or at least colors) for material types like a beast made from mucus or gabbro?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 02, 2019, 04:17:21 pm
Hey there! Long time player and forum lurker, I've had a couple of questions on my mind for a few months related to the graphics release and I guess I've felt intimidated in asking, but here I go:The guys making the new tileset for the paid releases have their own thread here:
I am currently making my own tileset for the game. With the upcoming graphical release, are we going to be able to finally have gendered tiles? If so, will we be able to have male and female tiles for each profession? Secondly, if this is happening, will you be adding trans gendered to dwarfs to the game that use tiles from the opposing gender (or even allow a third androgynous gender)?
Also, are we going to be allowed to now have ghost and zombie tiles for specific professions? I.e. a tile for a male miner zombie and a different tile for a female farmer ghost?
Lastly, will we be able to have custom tiles for forgotten beast\titan\secret-fun-thing subtypes (such as separate tiles for Sauropod and Spider beasts), and will we be able to assign tiles (or at least colors) for material types like a beast made from mucus or gabbro?
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0
And they work with Toady (no idea how closely) so they know the kind of graphics enhancements he's planning. You might get more info quicker from them rather than here where there's another 30 days until the answer.
Post by: Death Dragon on December 03, 2019, 03:21:53 pm
I am currently making my own tileset for the game. With the upcoming graphical release, are we going to be able to finally have gendered tiles? If so, will we be able to have male and female tiles for each profession? Secondly, if this is happening, will you be adding trans gendered to dwarfs to the game that use tiles from the opposing gender (or even allow a third androgynous gender)?Nothing has been set in stone yet, but it's looking like there is a possibility that civilised creature sprites will be dynamically created based on their physical appearance (hair style, colours, etc) and the stuff that they are actually wearing.
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 03, 2019, 06:52:07 pm
There has been a lot of talk about player villain plots but I was wondering about player mercenaries, can the player join a mercenary company and go to battle earning some of the "Honors" that the company may have?
For next time, some of the speaking skills are used now,
After rereading the dev logs I can see that intimidation seems confirmed but can you tell us what other speaking skills are already slated for next release?
there's the new intrigue skill which can come up in interrogation.
While rereading the dev logs I saw that you added an "intrigue" tab, is this what the intrigue skill governs? and if yes in what way?
Also given that we will presumably be able to use judge intent to tell how characters are feeling I must ask, is it finally possible to see the fear in your enemies eyes while they beg for their lives right before they die? Or to put it another way if is start talking to someone I'm fighting will it tell me how afraid/confident they are feeling without utterances?
At the same time, I allowed the taking of any civ skill, for the new character sheet background purposes. They are not used yet.
I saw that in the dev log where you mentioned enabling civ skill picks during character creation you mentioned wider skill use in adventure mode but said "not yet".
My question is what do you mean by "not yet"? more specifically by "not yet" do you mean not before Steam release (my hope) or not before the Big Wait/Myth Arc (my fear).
Edit 1: Question Color
Edit 2: Question Clarification.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 03, 2019, 07:08:18 pm
"Not yet" presumably means you can pick brewing skill (for example) for your player character, but there's no opportunity in Adventurer to actually use it yet.At the same time, I allowed the taking of any civ skill, for the new character sheet background purposes. They are not used yet.
I saw that in the dev log where you mentioned enabling civ skill picks during character creation you mentioned wider skill use in adventure mode but said "not yet".
My question is what do you mean by "not yet"?
Specifically do you mean not before Steam release (my hope) or not before the Big Wait/Myth Arc (my fear).
Edit: Question Color
Handy for mods where you can, I expect. Wouldn't expect any more major changes in Adventurer unless Steam release goes speedily and Toady suddenly decides to add a bunch of bonus crafting opportunities.
No great loss if he doesn't, there are already mods which add these functions.
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 04, 2019, 06:42:55 am
"Not yet" presumably means you can pick brewing skill (for example) for your player character, but there's no opportunity in Adventurer to actually use it yet.
Handy for mods where you can, I expect. Wouldn't expect any more major changes in Adventurer unless Steam release goes speedily and Toady suddenly decides to add a bunch of bonus crafting opportunities.
No great loss if he doesn't, there are already mods which add these functions.
Yeah I understood that bit but was wondering about when Toady plans to expanded upon adventure mode skills and makes these background skill choices usable and the line I'm thinking of is about doing just that.
Quote from: Dev_Log
07/17/2019 - Toady One - I started with some character sheet issues this time around. To keep up with some promises from old Future of the Fortresses for the new adventurers, I allowed the purchase of item quality in chargen, and the selection of religion, including the organized ones, depending on what town you start in and its history. I also changed the 'hearthperson or not' choice to allow for a variety of regular professional backgrounds, which mostly don't do anything in adv mode yet, but they give free skills which'll allow you to have some useful skills if you decide to retire in or move to a fort. At some point we'll get to wider skill use in adventure mode, but not yet!
I was wondering if "not yet" meant not before steam release or not before the big wait.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 04, 2019, 07:01:28 am
We'll see. I imagine it's not likely to be part of the Villains release. Plans for Adventurer have been laid out fairly clearly and some parts may even be cut for time. Adding crafting and such wasn't in the initial plan."Not yet" presumably means you can pick brewing skill (for example) for your player character, but there's no opportunity in Adventurer to actually use it yet.
Handy for mods where you can, I expect. Wouldn't expect any more major changes in Adventurer unless Steam release goes speedily and Toady suddenly decides to add a bunch of bonus crafting opportunities.
No great loss if he doesn't, there are already mods which add these functions.
Yeah I understood that bit but was wondering about when Toady plans to expanded upon adventure mode skills and makes these background skill choices usable and the line I'm thinking of is about doing just that.Quote from: Dev_Log07/17/2019 - Toady One - I started with some character sheet issues this time around. To keep up with some promises from old Future of the Fortresses for the new adventurers, I allowed the purchase of item quality in chargen, and the selection of religion, including the organized ones, depending on what town you start in and its history. I also changed the 'hearthperson or not' choice to allow for a variety of regular professional backgrounds, which mostly don't do anything in adv mode yet, but they give free skills which'll allow you to have some useful skills if you decide to retire in or move to a fort. At some point we'll get to wider skill use in adventure mode, but not yet!
I was wondering if "not yet" meant not before steam release or not before the big wait.
The important thing is he seems to have added the skills for selection during character creation. That's a big bonus for those mods which add Adventurer skills.
Post by: therahedwig on December 04, 2019, 07:53:18 am
But I suspect the main problem is tools. Woodworking and bonecarving right now uses any sharp tool, writing requires quires/scrolls, performances only require skills and knowledge, but I guess something like leather and clothmaking requires needles and scissors... But I guess so do sutures... Ah well, let's wait for the answer :)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 04, 2019, 08:08:21 am
Well, the 'adventure mode medical improvements' suggests adventurers will at the least be able to understand how bandages work before the myth dev cycle.Yeah, tools. The adventurer sites update just abouts got away with that with axes and sharp knives to give you the bare minimum needed. But I imagine the rest is being put off until a good go at making it all realistic can be made. That and having the NPC's of the world use their tools and workshops too.
But I suspect the main problem is tools. Woodworking and bonecarving right now uses any sharp tool, writing requires quires/scrolls, performances only require skills and knowledge, but I guess something like leather and clothmaking requires needles and scissors... But I guess so do sutures... Ah well, let's wait for the answer :)
Hopefully get the medical stuff at least before the Big Wait.
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 04, 2019, 10:20:43 am
Well, the 'adventure mode medical improvements' suggests adventurers will at the least be able to understand how bandages work before the myth dev cycle.
But I suspect the main problem is tools. Woodworking and bonecarving right now uses any sharp tool, writing requires quires/scrolls, performances only require skills and knowledge, but I guess something like leather and clothmaking requires needles and scissors... But I guess so do sutures... Ah well, let's wait for the answer :)
Woodowrking actually uses a carpenters workshop in adventure mode right now aswell. You have to {b}uild it before you can do carpentery. I imagine thats where the "tools" are abstracted away. So he could do similar things for the other skills.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 04, 2019, 04:37:23 pm
Ah, sorry, haven't done that in a while. Was thinking the workshop still needed a tool in hand to use.Well, the 'adventure mode medical improvements' suggests adventurers will at the least be able to understand how bandages work before the myth dev cycle.
But I suspect the main problem is tools. Woodworking and bonecarving right now uses any sharp tool, writing requires quires/scrolls, performances only require skills and knowledge, but I guess something like leather and clothmaking requires needles and scissors... But I guess so do sutures... Ah well, let's wait for the answer :)
Woodowrking actually uses a carpenters workshop in adventure mode right now aswell. You have to {b}uild it before you can do carpentery. I imagine thats where the "tools" are abstracted away. So he could do similar things for the other skills.
If it's simple to add new workshops then we might see some more. Although with plans to scrap workshops, it would probably be low priority compared to everything else (considering the current plans are already on the verge of being cut).
Can you add available workshops for adventurers through basic raw modding?
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 04, 2019, 07:04:06 pm
Ah, sorry, haven't done that in a while. Was thinking the workshop still needed a tool in hand to use.Well, the 'adventure mode medical improvements' suggests adventurers will at the least be able to understand how bandages work before the myth dev cycle.
But I suspect the main problem is tools. Woodworking and bonecarving right now uses any sharp tool, writing requires quires/scrolls, performances only require skills and knowledge, but I guess something like leather and clothmaking requires needles and scissors... But I guess so do sutures... Ah well, let's wait for the answer :)
Woodowrking actually uses a carpenters workshop in adventure mode right now aswell. You have to {b}uild it before you can do carpentery. I imagine thats where the "tools" are abstracted away. So he could do similar things for the other skills.
If it's simple to add new workshops then we might see some more. Although with plans to scrap workshops, it would probably be low priority compared to everything else (considering the current plans are already on the verge of being cut).
Can you add available workshops for adventurers through basic raw modding?
Maybe i should explain better, it requires the workshop and something sharp thats why i said "aswell", but you cant do it with just the sharp tool. You need the workshop aswell.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 04, 2019, 08:52:06 pm
Yes, so that's an indication of the extra level of detail Toady presumably wants to see throughout Adventurer over fortress mode. It's not just a matter of switching on new workshops.Ah, sorry, haven't done that in a while. Was thinking the workshop still needed a tool in hand to use.Well, the 'adventure mode medical improvements' suggests adventurers will at the least be able to understand how bandages work before the myth dev cycle.
But I suspect the main problem is tools. Woodworking and bonecarving right now uses any sharp tool, writing requires quires/scrolls, performances only require skills and knowledge, but I guess something like leather and clothmaking requires needles and scissors... But I guess so do sutures... Ah well, let's wait for the answer :)
Woodowrking actually uses a carpenters workshop in adventure mode right now aswell. You have to {b}uild it before you can do carpentery. I imagine thats where the "tools" are abstracted away. So he could do similar things for the other skills.
If it's simple to add new workshops then we might see some more. Although with plans to scrap workshops, it would probably be low priority compared to everything else (considering the current plans are already on the verge of being cut).
Can you add available workshops for adventurers through basic raw modding?
Maybe i should explain better, it requires the workshop and something sharp thats why i said "aswell", but you cant do it with just the sharp tool. You need the workshop aswell.
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 04, 2019, 10:37:44 pm
Yes, so that's an indication of the extra level of detail Toady presumably wants to see throughout Adventurer over fortress mode. It's not just a matter of switching on new workshops.Ah, sorry, haven't done that in a while. Was thinking the workshop still needed a tool in hand to use.Well, the 'adventure mode medical improvements' suggests adventurers will at the least be able to understand how bandages work before the myth dev cycle.
But I suspect the main problem is tools. Woodworking and bonecarving right now uses any sharp tool, writing requires quires/scrolls, performances only require skills and knowledge, but I guess something like leather and clothmaking requires needles and scissors... But I guess so do sutures... Ah well, let's wait for the answer :)
Woodowrking actually uses a carpenters workshop in adventure mode right now aswell. You have to {b}uild it before you can do carpentery. I imagine thats where the "tools" are abstracted away. So he could do similar things for the other skills.
If it's simple to add new workshops then we might see some more. Although with plans to scrap workshops, it would probably be low priority compared to everything else (considering the current plans are already on the verge of being cut).
Can you add available workshops for adventurers through basic raw modding?
Maybe i should explain better, it requires the workshop and something sharp thats why i said "aswell", but you cant do it with just the sharp tool. You need the workshop aswell.
Hmm, i suppose so. Even if it is just one extra thing.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 06, 2019, 01:30:52 am
If I accidentally kill a visitor and put his artifact on a pedestal, or even just in a stockpile, does the game know it's now mine and start generating suspicious activity reports for it?
Are the justice system updates going to make it slightly less impossible to track down and capture a visitor vampire?
(Not actually experienced this myself, so someone else might chime in with what the specific issue is there and how updating the justice system might account for it).
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 06, 2019, 05:57:57 am
But is there any kind of secure 'duress' of dwarves/other when they're brought to the sheriff's or will say interrogating a P.O.W cage caught goblin for rumors about prisoners, tributed artifacts and further information suddenly lead to them breaking free and starting a slaughter depending that the sheriff ability to hold them still?
Keeping in mind this is a bridge we've already come to pass with the dangerous animal hauling job being relegated to using cage transferral now: If prisoners are not safe or trustworthy enough to bring into the office, can they be escorted to a cage inside the law enforcement office?
Sorry if my questions are relatively similar and related, it just there's a discrepency that a dangerous vampire might end up being apprehended peacefully, brought to office, accused and unmasked then go immediately hostile like they do in adventure mode and there wouldnt be any sort of way to secure them from a outburst (like having their hands tied) unless i already exploited disorientation to put dwarves inside a cage trap (regarding question #2)
Post by: DG on December 06, 2019, 10:03:02 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 06, 2019, 11:20:31 am
Post by: therahedwig on December 06, 2019, 02:22:27 pm
The real question is whether being captured and interrogated will make it in ;)
Edit: while I am posting anyway.
I've been mucking about with books. I have noticed with certain book forms, like the biographical dictionary and the genealogy, that my adventurer just wrote an essay. Is that because these forms are not properly implemented yet, or is it because my adventurer just knows too little about the world? Because star charts are also not really implemented, but they do give a chart text instead of an essay.
Post by: Flying Teasets on December 08, 2019, 12:26:46 am
Quote from: squamous2. My memory might be betraying me here but was it mentioned that caravans would spawn in the world now? Not to like actually serve as an economy yet but just travel between towns as a flavor thing. Could I rob them?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058135#msg8058135
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058148#msg8058148
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058157#msg8058157
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058162#msg8058162
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058170#msg8058170
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8058175#msg8058175
2. No caravans for the next release. I'm not sure what that might have been.
Here it is:
Quote
10/16/2018 Toady One As promised... a bit more toying around with villain-tangential world generation. With the Big Wait slowly approaching, there's a sense of wanting to put in place some interesting new broad dynamics, and that's causing this slight wander through feature land, I think, but we will get back to the villains-and-release before too much longer.
This time, we added traveling merchants and companies piggy-backing on the more abstract industry/trade sim that already exists, so you'll get a small window into that (which has been almost entirely invisible, but there, for years.) At their peak, the companies will form multiple trade outposts in other civs along the trade routes to facilitate more cross-civ link formation. Going to do the same thing with religion as well, so everything isn't just isolated market-site temples, but more connected setups, sometimes with a larger organization that can also facilitate link formation, across civs if I can manage it.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2019, 02:06:31 am
As robbable as anyone else in he game I expect.
Post by: therahedwig on December 08, 2019, 03:08:41 pm
You can already see some effects of it when you go to a market in adventure mode, the callers will yell where their products came from, and they're able to do that because of the existing sim. According to previous fotfs there are virtual caravans going around, but they aren't the ones you see in fort mode, which live in a separate world from the former. And now the trade companies are sitting on top of those virtual caravans, making friends in foreign lands while they're at it.
Post by: falcc on December 13, 2019, 10:37:27 am
2) What kind of value changes result from thoughts related to imprisonment? Can someone released early or who sees their blackmailer jailed start to value the law and stop being villainous?
3) You mentioned that in world generation you've seen family members completely lose trust in their villainous kin. Are there any interactions family and friends can have with villainous people that sways them from committing further villainy once their current intrigues are thwarted?
4) Can you pull up a gremlin on charges for their lever crimes and send out a squad of dwarves to non-lethally nab the little buggers in the caverns locally? Can you integrate said little buggers from jail instead of cages if you're simultaneously training them?
5) How strong is the influence of law values on decision making when it comes to schemes? How strong is the influence of the trust value on letting somebody convince you that actually laws are arbitrary and worth breaking with schemes?
Post by: BlevRuz on December 13, 2019, 12:26:14 pm
Post by: therahedwig on December 13, 2019, 01:37:17 pm
Are there any plans for civilisation/era-specific architecture?Yes, it has been brought up several times, and there is even some of it already in the game(towns right now work in such a way so that if a human hamlet gets taken over by the elves and later the goblins, you get structures from all three civ-types in that town). From the last fotf there was comment from Toady that he was unsure when he would get into properly handling that type of stuff, at the very least the next section that needs to be done is the myth and magic map rewrite (because that should simplify multi-level stuff like the dwarf forts).
That said, this has always been about civ-specific structures, never about era specific, so I guess that part is still unknown :p
Post by: BlevRuz on December 13, 2019, 01:48:05 pm
Thanks! Hadn't looked hard enough, haha. I've yet to stumble over any such mixed town, too.Are there any plans for civilisation/era-specific architecture?Yes, it has been brought up several times, and there is even some of it already in the game(towns right now work in such a way so that if a human hamlet gets taken over by the elves and later the goblins, you get structures from all three civ-types in that town). From the last fotf there was comment from Toady that he was unsure when he would get into properly handling that type of stuff, at the very least the next section that needs to be done is the myth and magic map rewrite (because that should simplify multi-level stuff like the dwarf forts).
That said, this has always been about civ-specific structures, never about era specific, so I guess that part is still unknown :p
Something like specific architectural styles being defined and used instead of civ-wide standard buildings could be really interesting, but I don't know how hard it could be to put in practice. Down the line, perhaps! Enough on the plate as is, I suppose.
Post by: Inarius on December 20, 2019, 04:59:54 am
Will AI agents try to re-mount if they fall from their mount ? I mean, is a bandit aware of the fact that he is on something, and that, if he falls from his mount, he can ride it again ?
Second question : do you plan to add the mounting part in Arena too ?
I'd really like to test many things with mounting.
Post by: Death Dragon on December 20, 2019, 08:45:29 am
Do you still prefer this development structure or would it be better for the game to go through it backwards and start development of new features in adv/fort mode?
Post by: therahedwig on December 20, 2019, 11:00:50 am
Hm, as much as I sometimes feel the same, I think the current way of development is the most efficient: all fortmode and adventure mode interaction is intended to work for histfigs as well, because you are essentially controlling histfigs. So, for villains to be the most fun you will need to do worldgen work first and do it properly so that people who don't necessarily want to play villains can enjoy them them just as much as people who are looking forward to playing villains. And I suspect also that the vast majority of the worldgen work is design and testing of systems. Considering we've had bugs like the candy spires, as well as the mysterious nemesis bug, it doesn't seem all that strange to debug a lot here. And the design part as well, there's a reason DF clones get made so easily, and it isn't just because they're doing a shallow implementation of what df is, it is also because they have an example of how it could work. And especially in the case of villainy, implementing them game-side first just gives you a ton of actors that don't know what to do with your directions.
I mean, I do agree it is a bit annoying. There's very little challenge to running a successful tavern(outside of bugs), a performer adventurer will mostly be able to go between towns and get rep, but skill growth is pretty slow and there's no reason to increase your skill because the festivals and competitions don't exist. Stealing artifacts is... having questers run after you is sorta unnerving, but I never get attacked or really accosted by them, and the actual stealing itself is also rather trivial.
On the other hand, setting up a good library requires a surprising amount of careful decision making, and if bugs are fixed, having all the new linkages stuff will mean taverns+temples will be a lot more interesting next release(though, still not terribly hard to have a popular tavern). Raiding is sort of fun when it doesn't completely corrupt your game, though it is questionable why any mature fort would raid for artifacts given how often moods occur, so a lot of artifact related stuff isn't seen right now.
- Do horses need to graze in adv mode? I looked around, but couldn't see anything regarding it. Horses ignoring you to graze is a pretty universal horseback-riding experience.
- How are you planning on tackling the steam release? Just one big monthslong dev cycle, or are you going to break it up a little so you can fold it into the bugfix cycles and have binaries for M&M to experiment with?
- Will the new romance stuff also be delayed for fort mode to the post-steam releases?
- Do you think the army stuff will take as long as the villains release has? I mean, sure the villains release got delayed by all the linking stuff that cropped up, but as far as I know it is also a pretty ambitious system for a video game. Will the army stuff require a lot of worldgen work, or is it mostly interaction and UI side?
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 20, 2019, 12:32:18 pm
- My understanding was that the romance modifications were done a year ago and haven't been released simply because there haven't been any releases since. Thus, I expect it to be included in the Villain release that release turned into.
- The Villains arc is a short one, in DF terms, at a bit over 1½ year (assuming its FIRST release happens within the next two months or so, and bug fix releases are kept to an absolute minimum [but hopefully not below that, this time]). I wouldn't expect a new arc to be shorter than a year, in particular if the development model is modified to support the latest release with fixes of important bugs and minor new features in parallel with new development to show the game isn't abandoned. Also note that Toady isn't one of the exceedingly rare SW developers who makes an accurate plan and sticks to it, but rather starts with an overfull table of features knowing some will have to be cut, an optimistic schedule, and pursuit of tangents, with the schedule the first thing to be adjusted when the plan didn't hold.
Post by: therahedwig on December 20, 2019, 03:55:50 pm
- As far as I understand it, there's going to be internal closed beta testing of the Premium release, which implies the work being split up to some extent, but to those outside of the beta it's a single unbroken run as usual, possibly with a little fewer new bugs than usual, although the rapidly diminishing time remaining until it has to be released will run counter to that.
Quote
- My understanding was that the romance modifications were done a year ago and haven't been released simply because there haven't been any releases since. Thus, I expect it to be included in the Villain release that release turned into.I was reffering to romance in dwarf mode.
Quote
- The Villains arc is a short one, in DF terms, at a bit over 1½ year (assuming its FIRST release happens within the next two months or so, and bug fix releases are kept to an absolute minimum [but hopefully not below that, this time]). I wouldn't expect a new arc to be shorter than a year, in particular if the development model is modified to support the latest release with fixes of important bugs and minor new features in parallel with new development to show the game isn't abandoned. Also note that Toady isn't one of the exceedingly rare SW developers who makes an accurate plan and sticks to it, but rather starts with an overfull table of features knowing some will have to be cut, an optimistic schedule, and pursuit of tangents, with the schedule the first thing to be adjusted when the plan didn't hold.Erm... Patrick, I have been playing this game since slightly before the 0.31.01 release... that's... 2009. There has been slight variations to the arc rhythm. For example, the animal drive was a series of bugfix releases that included a bunch of new animals each release, as well as associated nestboxes and beekeeping and clay. The minecart release also took about a month or two in total. What these releases have in common is that they required very little worldgen work. The villains release is still a relatively long DF devcycle. The longest has been 2~ years, which was the world activation release if I recall correctly. This one, also required a lot of worldgen work. Therefore, my conclusion of 10 years of observing the development, is that worldgen work is very intensive (and probably this has good reasons, I already laid out what my speculations here are). Ergo, I am asking how much is suspected to be in terms of worldgen work, because my experience is that once that foundation is laid, development goes pretty quickly.
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 20, 2019, 05:06:02 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 20, 2019, 06:28:26 pm
What's "romance", unless it's the multiple lovers/lover(s) beside a spouse?Yes, that's the only "New romance stuff" going on. That and villains taking advantage of the new grudges / passions of jealous husbands and jilted lovers which Toady already mentioned in the devlog as happening in fortress mode. There's no "new fortress romance" stuff, whatever that might theoretically consist of (mind boggles). The only missing "romance" stuff is for the poor old Adventurer who won't be getting any loving for several years yet.
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They go about the typical business of these visitors, and any dwarves they encounter are subject to attempts to sway their loyalties, using the techniques from world generation (flattery, intimidation, promise of revenge against a grudge, promise of immortality, etc.)
"Army stuff" going strictly by the devlog is mainly fortress mode Improved Sieges. Although management of armies in off-site holdings is also there. Actual armies already move about and fight each each other in worldgen, so probably not much to add as far as worldgen goes.
But....pre Big-Wait rabbit hole combined with adding the stuff from Villains which didn't make it could be pretty long.
And would actually be a very welcome thing. This whole, "I'm going to cut the most ambitious development arc in years due to pressure from business people" is just depressing.
Post by: therahedwig on December 20, 2019, 07:22:53 pm
Quote from: Devlog 10/24/2019
At some point early on, perhaps before traitors, we'll also have to bring the fort in line with the new relationship model. This will expand what grudges and friendships mean, and it will also allow the new w.g. features like divorce and multiple lovers to happen in fort mode.This is what I am talking about, you guys never saw it? (I mean, it's a long devlog)
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This whole, "I'm going to cut the most ambitious development arc in years due to pressure from business people" is just depressing.Where are people getting this from? Devcycles have been cut before because they were too long? I am pretty sure it's just a self-driven sense of deadline?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 20, 2019, 07:35:16 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 20, 2019, 08:29:28 pm
And a couple of devlogs ago, as I quoted, he said villains were working in Dwarf mode by offering the promise of revenge against a grudge. That wouldn't work if the new relationships weren't working. It's the point of doing it.Quote from: Devlog 10/24/2019At some point early on, perhaps before traitors, we'll also have to bring the fort in line with the new relationship model. This will expand what grudges and friendships mean, and it will also allow the new w.g. features like divorce and multiple lovers to happen in fort mode.This is what I am talking about, you guys never saw it? (I mean, it's a long devlog)QuoteThis whole, "I'm going to cut the most ambitious development arc in years due to pressure from business people" is just depressing.Where are people getting this from? Devcycles have been cut before because they were too long? I am pretty sure it's just a self-driven sense of deadline?
And in yesterday's blog he quoted "obligations" and the need to get on with Steam and touch base with the artists, etc. as the reason for cutting stuff.
I mean, that's fine, he usually cuts stuff for his own time limits. But this is the first time he's quoted actual outside pressure as the reason. Meh, no need to read too deeply into that though.
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The Steam work has been put off for a long while, and we have obligations to meet there, and artists and others to coordinate with, so some bits may have to be placed with the post-Steam army work.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 20, 2019, 08:58:02 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 21, 2019, 10:27:37 am
Indeed. Even months before the Steam announcement, Toady was already expressing frustration at the degree to which he was dragging this cycle out. Don't think Kitfox has much (if anything) to do with it.
Id think the players are too, it has lead to some pretty important issues being unaddressed for a few versions. What is it, like a year and a half, little more since dwarves were completely oblivious (seperate issue in itself) to anything except massive mood infatuation but not much mechanical relationship growth to being haunted wrecks. (which fairly enough was unforseeable as a future problem at the time and was meant to be a effective fix to the issue)
Im not expecting a silver bullet by the next version as much as a developed assurance but its helpful to see a horizon eventually even if we have to wait for the extended steam release which going to a good cause kind of supplants the feeling that if it had not been the case we'd have the update in full and maybe a extra bit of flair presented to us already.
Vaguely seperate question for Toady: Since elves operate in their own religious system compared to polytheism with the Druid holding higher office than the Queen, they are obviously different than all the other races for the next version who mostly adhere to polytheism (and goblin demonic monotheism, but until that's fixed: atheism). Besides establishments for shrines will there be any kind of barebones recognition of druidism from a playable fortress's perspective should a player switch the religious system in the raws and desire to pray to the natural spirit of the mountains?
Its something i might probe into when the version with priests eventually rolls out, but i imagine they're probably far away from acolytes doing very important nature stuff (purportedly via the mass recreational consumption of hemp plants grown locally) in that one day, a fortress priest/druid might inherit a prominent nationally important noble role via mass support or private selection of successors.
Post by: squamous on December 23, 2019, 02:42:10 pm
1. In a previous update you mentioned that animal people were some of the last holdouts to a necromancer's reign of terror. Are animal men going to receive any significant behavioral changes in the next update?
2. If randomly generated necromancers can create special undead, could we create our own necromancer types which could create unique types of undead? Would it be possible to start an adventure mode playthrough as an undead servant of a necromancer?
3. Could reanimating biome regions create special undead?
4. How exactly does a faction gauge the strength of someone they want to attack? You've mentioned before that civs will do this but what factors are at play here? Population, what metals they use, and what pets they have come to mind.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 23, 2019, 05:27:42 pm
1. Necromancers (and demons) will create new kinds of beings in the next update, merging prisoners with the local wildlife. I guess this is kind of related to that. They can escape and later join civilisations just like animal people do now.
1. In a previous update you mentioned that animal people were some of the last holdouts to a necromancer's reign of terror. Are animal men going to receive any significant behavioral changes in the next update?
2. If randomly generated necromancers can create special undead, could we create our own necromancer types which could create unique types of undead? Would it be possible to start an adventure mode playthrough as an undead servant of a necromancer?
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certain necromancers and certain demons can also magically experiment on or otherwise corruptly transform the citizens and livestock of cities that they capture. This leads to a variety of humanoids and quadrupeds and others (like little failed experiment winged blobs), some of which can escape into the wilderness and perhaps even rarely reintegrate into society (and thereby possibly become playable in adv mode and available as fort travelers and migrants.) Collections of citizens can also be amalgamated into monstrous giants.
Post by: therahedwig on December 23, 2019, 06:24:20 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 23, 2019, 06:45:42 pm
He's talking about the world-take-over devlog, where a necromancer took over a small world, and the last vestiges of non-undeadness was a village of animal people. I personally figured they were part of a elven civ before all the elves went, but I guess the question is still valid.Oh, that. Yeah, a quick look at one of my worlds reveals any number of villages made up mainly of a few animal people. It's not that rare. Doubt Toady's going back to worldgen for this upcoming release. It's already overdue.
Post by: voliol on December 23, 2019, 07:00:03 pm
2. If randomly generated necromancers can create special undead, could we create our own necromancer types which could create unique types of undead? Would it be possible to start an adventure mode playthrough as an undead servant of a necromancer?
I think all intelligent undead might be histfigs due to their being agents (position-holders?) within the necromancer crime network, and being individually raised by the necromancer, and you can't play existing histfigs. I imagine there being some bug in the first version though, where you are able to play as one of their kind due to there being a big enough population of intelligent undead infiltrators within a given civ.
The failed experiments should be playable in adventurer mode, if they escape the necromancer and then rejoin civilization.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 24, 2019, 08:53:27 am
Oh, that. Yeah, a quick look at one of my worlds reveals any number of villages made up mainly of a few animal people. It's not that rare. Doubt Toady's going back to worldgen for this upcoming release. It's already overdue.
A keen memory is that Hyena-Men v0.34'ish used to have their own little antagonistic routines to stealing livestock and if you embarked near enough to them, you'd see (my memory failing me here a bit) their tents and a little camp fire. They used to harrass my sheep all the while, killing and dragging the corpse off the map when i was starting out playing the game, and while its nice to have them (animalpeople ) included generally, i do long for those days again.
Animal people like flypeople (or anything else really) dominate through numbers even if they don't reproduce so for a lack of people its not suprising if all the animalpeople aren't nominated for military service (which is something i've been trying to get around), its still essentially a human settlement though staffed by animalpeople. So i dont think there's very much to read into that statement in reality.
Edit - No drastic change in the entity will probably occur outside of the Law Arc for recognising the site now dominated by Owl men for instance as a 'Owl Man Hamlet' with values and ethics dictated by the inhabitants i mean, compared to caretaker populations.
Post by: falcc on December 26, 2019, 11:31:35 pm
6. To what extent does your shield protect your mount?
It'd be cool to ride at a fire breathing dragon, deflecting its fearsome breath, preparing to plunge a spear into its beastly heart. It'd be slightly less cool to then have all the fat boil off your horse.
Post by: DG on December 27, 2019, 12:01:05 am
If it was a magic anti-dragon plank of pine I'd have no objections.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 27, 2019, 02:01:47 am
Woops, thought of one moreYeah, careful of that one.
6. To what extent does your shield protect your mount?
It'd be cool to ride at a fire breathing dragon, deflecting its fearsome breath, preparing to plunge a spear into its beastly heart. It'd be slightly less cool to then have all the fat boil off your horse.
Toady thinks of answer...hmm..twiddles with numbers...Not at all! And it won't do much for you against dragonfire any more either.
Hopefully looked at in Better Sieges. Could do with that pre-Big Wait time to tweak some battle logic along with the other stuff.
Post by: therahedwig on December 29, 2019, 12:05:00 pm
- What determines whether a scholar will actually discover a topic at the end of their research? A coinflip?
- Why can bookbindings and codices not be decorated while scroll rollers can? Is it because the notion of a covering for the codex is missing?
- For many of the non-manual books, guides, chronicles, encyclopedias. I expected them to actually teach adventurers about the content(s), but reading them doesn't seem to do anything. Is this related to the rumour/knowledge split? Do these books do anything on the purest of mechanical levels, or is it mostly unimplemented?
EDIT: I just remembered this, it might be useful: Intel's profiller, VTune, used to have a license cost of 1K a year for use on windows, but nowadays is free there too(in addition to being free to use on Linux and Mac, proly because intel's trying to make up for the spectre/meltdown bugs). I figured you guys would find a use for that :)
Post by: Beag on December 29, 2019, 08:17:25 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 29, 2019, 09:16:52 pm
If an artifact gets stolen in an area a player adventurer is in, is it possible the player adventurer will be interrogated if they are suspected of stealing it? If so how will responding to an interrogation as a player adventurer work?I don't think the justice system has been introduced to Adventurer yet (partly due to the problems of having fun while being in a cage). Right now, if people see you with their artifact they'll demand you put it back. Probably hasn't changed from that.
With parties as default now though, rescuing members from prisons and cages should be doable. Still, being interrogated by an NPC is quite a different system to interrogating an NPC.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 30, 2019, 03:11:41 am
--edit
Oh I see, it's a new scrumptious looking pic each time you click the link. The horror...the horror...
Post by: Inarius on December 30, 2019, 04:15:08 am
That's something
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 30, 2019, 05:59:55 am
Do I get a prize?
Post by: Inarius on December 30, 2019, 06:55:49 am
Post by: voliol on December 30, 2019, 07:27:40 am
Post by: Eric Blank on December 30, 2019, 10:29:51 am
Toady, did you remove the body reset from transformations, then?
Can this effect be turned around to remove tissues from limbs, like in the old Armok game?
Post by: therahedwig on December 30, 2019, 10:37:01 am
Post by: Eric Blank on December 30, 2019, 10:43:14 am
If this is used in dice rolls, and body transformations are too, then there would be two ways to regain lost limbs
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 30, 2019, 04:56:33 pm
Will making adventure mode a "fun game" still be a priority after the steam release given that the new players will likely focus on fort mode? Ive been worried about this. As I absolutely love adventure mode and i can see a ton of potential and love it even now given the ludicrous variety of roles the player can fill and the reactive world sim.
Post by: clinodev on December 30, 2019, 06:42:02 pm
Do you really mean to finalize "Classic" in January, given the previously stated desire to sort out raid crashes and stress/memory issues on top of all the unknown new issues likely to arise from 18 months of pretty amazing and jam-packed development since the last release? Yes, you wrote "After any fires are put out," and I know there's some. . . tension. . . here on the forum between the "Hey, maybe some bug fixes?" and "No, no fix, only feature!" camps, but if there's ever been a time to square some things away before starting a major development cycle, perhaps it's now? Even the biggest "Feature" pushers eventually admitted some stress changes might have been nice by October 2018.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 30, 2019, 07:41:44 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 30, 2019, 09:04:03 pm
To add to Untrustedlife,While weird rumours might fly about, I'm pretty sure the "please don't fix bugs" people are a figment of your imagination. There are certainly a fair few people who will point out how things have always worked in the past with bugs fixed before release followed by "putting the fires out" which tends to last a couple of months after release. But that's not the same thing.
Do you really mean to finalize "Classic" in January, given the previously stated desire to sort out raid crashes and stress/memory issues on top of all the unknown new issues likely to arise from 18 months of pretty amazing and jam-packed development since the last release? Yes, you wrote "After any fires are put out," and I know there's some. . . tension. . . here on the forum between the "Hey, maybe some bug fixes?" and "No, no fix, only feature!" camps, but if there's ever been a time to square some things away before starting a major development cycle, perhaps it's now? Even the biggest "Feature" pushers eventually admitted some stress changes might have been nice by October 2018.
Now, that's not the right way to approach the Steam release perhaps, but this isn't that.
Post by: JesterHell696 on December 30, 2019, 11:52:40 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 31, 2019, 06:02:12 am
It can be noted that one of the quality measures for a game is how buggy it is perceived by the paying customer, and I believe DF is in a rather poor position for this arena, which ought to mean fixing bugs that confuse newbies ought to be a priority (together with all the other priority work) for the Premium arc. I'm still hoping Toady will start development of the next (Premium) version in parallel with support for the current (Villains) version to prepare for the mayhem that will ensue when the Premium release hits the stores. If that happens, many of the bug fixes made in preparation for the Premium release ought to appear in Villains arc bugfix releases during the development.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on December 31, 2019, 08:05:05 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 31, 2019, 08:31:51 am
It would probably make sense, and could be interpreted to be the plan here (catching up with the artists), to get working on the graphical updates so as to have it in place for Meph and Mayday as soon as possible to finish the tileset stuff while Toady works on the rest, including bugfixing. Since afaik a lot of the graphical update was still to be decided until Toady gets working on it and figures out what's feasibly doable.ONLY if Toady starts supporting the current release in parallel with the next one: It would be a very bad move to fix the game breaking bugs identified within three or so weeks of the Villains release to catch the last Villains bug fix release and then have all the others (including game breaking ones: it took several months for the community to identify the raid equipment crash bug) wait until the Premium release is done (which is the result of immediately jumping onto "graphics" changes and then back to bugs in that code base only, as the "graphics" changes can't be released in a Villains bug fix, since it presumably will break a number of existing "graphics" sets).
Post by: clinodev on December 31, 2019, 09:36:53 am
Some Bay12 forum folks seem to feel obligated to post a counter-reply to every suggestion that there might be problems, so by pure number of comments on Bay 12 posts, we may well be out-numbered, but it's mostly the same names who were loudly asserting stress was just fine in the Summer of 2018, and that we definitely didn't need any bug fixes before moving on to new features, no matter what some players were reporting. The comments are still there, of course, no need to trust my
I'm often struck by how many people have stopped playing because of the bugs, yet still actively follow development. They comment in the reddit posts where I link the official forum threads of note, like FotF, Dev Logs, Bay 12 Reports, etc. (I likewise link the Steam Community Updates here on Bay 12 so forum folks who aren't active on Steam don't miss, for instance, the January release date!) That seems like a sign of the strength and greatness of the game to me, and the greater and wider the participation in the community we can foster, the better and stronger the community will be, in my opinion. I look forward to being able to honestly encourage them that the game is in a good playable state, and they should play again!
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on December 31, 2019, 10:08:19 am
ONLY if Toady starts supporting the current release in parallel with the next one: It would be a very bad move to fix the game breaking bugs identified within three or so weeks of the Villains release to catch the last Villains bug fix release and then have all the others (including game breaking ones: it took several months for the community to identify the raid equipment crash bug) wait until the Premium release is done (which is the result of immediately jumping onto "graphics" changes and then back to bugs in that code base only, as the "graphics" changes can't be released in a Villains bug fix, since it presumably will break a number of existing "graphics" sets).
Wasn't there some talk about doing parallel work like that for bugs in some AMA or another? But yeah, hopefully crash bugs and other game-breakers will be included in the "fires being put out", my main point was that getting to the steam stuff sooner makes sense on a lot of levels. Then again I'm in the camp clinodev just mentioned, I haven't played for quite a few years and only know some bits of what big new bugs are floating about so my opinion only goes so far. Wasn't really the bugs that made me stop playing (tho some of them surely contributed), more that I'm in it for the "final" version so I don't mind waiting a few years/decades to play a more feature complete version of the best game ever and just enjoy the dev updates in the meantime.
Post by: therahedwig on December 31, 2019, 10:31:43 am
The thing is that the newer folk in this case are coming in with clichés that, well, you can't expect them to realize that they're clichés. At the same time, I am not sure if we should expect of older folk to become therapists to these people. Even this issue is itself a cliché, I see it happen in the communities of open source projects and other still-in-development games all the time, and I don't know a good solution. All I can say is that seeing it as a feature vs bugs people thing might be a misdiagnosis :)
The premium release seems to really make people anxious in any case. I guess everyone is super scared to see it have a super terrible review score? I am not too worried, but that's mostly because DF has some advantages that most indie-fails don't have, the most important one being that it has a huge community around it. This may seem insignificant, but that's really super important, equally if not more important to being accessible or having few bugs :)
Post by: Toady One on January 01, 2020, 03:05:47 am
Quote from: sly_urist
I am currently making my own tileset for the game. With the upcoming graphical release, are we going to be able to finally have gendered tiles? If so, will we be able to have male and female tiles for each profession? Secondly, if this is happening, will you be adding trans gendered to dwarfs to the game that use tiles from the opposing gender (or even allow a third androgynous gender)?
Also, are we going to be allowed to now have ghost and zombie tiles for specific professions? I.e. a tile for a male miner zombie and a different tile for a female farmer ghost?
Lastly, will we be able to have custom tiles for forgotten beast\titan\secret-fun-thing subtypes (such as separate tiles for Sauropod and Spider beasts), and will we be able to assign tiles (or at least colors) for material types like a beast made from mucus or gabbro?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8061916#msg8061916
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8062302#msg8062302
Yeah, the thread Shonai_Dweller linked is as good a source of information as we have currently, and I don't want to announce any final decisions until I have more code in place and see how it performs etc. But we're hoping to have a lot of additional options that should cover most or all of your cases. But for stuff like procedural beasts, we really need to see it in action and also see how much art we'll need, and I'm sure there'll be a lot of hole-plugging there as we see odd things happening, ha ha.
Quote from: JesterHell696
After reading Toady's and Shonai's replies I went back and reread some dev logs to rejig my memory, this in-turn inspired more questions.
There has been a lot of talk about player villain plots but I was wondering about player mercenaries, can the player join a mercenary company and go to battle earning some of the "Honors" that the company may have?For next time, some of the speaking skills are used now,
After rereading the dev logs I can see that intimidation seems confirmed but can you tell us what other speaking skills are already slated for next release?there's the new intrigue skill which can come up in interrogation.
While rereading the dev logs I saw that you added an "intrigue" tab, is this what the intrigue skill governs? and if yes in what way?
Also given that we will presumably be able to use judge intent to tell how characters are feeling I must ask, is it finally possible to see the fear in your enemies eyes while they beg for their lives right before they die? Or to put it another way if is start talking to someone I'm fighting will it tell me how afraid/confident they are feeling without utterances?At the same time, I allowed the taking of any civ skill, for the new character sheet background purposes. They are not used yet.
I saw that in the dev log where you mentioned enabling civ skill picks during character creation you mentioned wider skill use in adventure mode but said "not yet".
My question is what do you mean by "not yet"? more specifically by "not yet" do you mean not before Steam release (my hope) or not before the Big Wait/Myth Arc (my fear).
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8062380#msg8062380
JesterHell696 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8062593#msg8062593
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8062598#msg8062598
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8062606#msg8062606
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8062609#msg8062609
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8062659#msg8062659
and more
Adv mercs: That was a hope, but I think it'll have to wait a bit now.
Speaking skills+Seeing fear: Persuade, intimidate and flatter come up the most currently, where judge intent and intrigue offer modifiers. Though we switched to dwarf mode before this jelled - it's still on the list of things to clean up in January, even if quite a bit is being delayed surrounding it.
Intrigue tab: The intrigue tab (in Q) is for seeing the org charts and also all of the actors and plots you've discovered, rather than anything to do with the skill directly.
When are adv civ skills: Yeah, I think therahedwig's observation that between Steam and the Big Wait we have adv mode medical, and that adv mode medical may include some civ skill improvements generally, is about as much as we've decided. But Shonai_Dweller's correct about tools being a main blocker. It could be proper to just forego the tools and get *something* in. We waffle on that, and whether or not the more abstract workshops should be involved (as Untrustedlife notes for carpentry.)
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Right now books are kind of artifacts, and they have a tendancy to be stolen by visitors (or they just, um, forgot to put them down or something...). Are these going to be generating reports?
If I accidentally kill a visitor and put his artifact on a pedestal, or even just in a stockpile, does the game know it's now mine and start generating suspicious activity reports for it?
Are the justice system updates going to make it slightly less impossible to track down and capture a visitor vampire?
(Not actually experienced this myself, so someone else might chime in with what the specific issue is there and how updating the justice system might account for it).
The suspicious activity reports are only triggered in the context of heists currently for performance/mem reasons (not that it's a lot, but it would be a contributing factor to trouble) -- even kobolds don't trigger the same level of detail, though I hope to get to that point in the future. So the books shouldn't cause problems unless a villain wants one.
Visitor vampies: Yeah, it'll help some, because the new system can track off-site and non-fort people now, so you can at least have an ongoing record of witness reports, and the ability to arrest them.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
But is there any kind of secure 'duress' of dwarves/other when they're brought to the sheriff's or will say interrogating a P.O.W cage caught goblin for rumors about prisoners, tributed artifacts and further information suddenly lead to them breaking free and starting a slaughter depending that the sheriff ability to hold them still?
Keeping in mind this is a bridge we've already come to pass with the dangerous animal hauling job being relegated to using cage transferral now: If prisoners are not safe or trustworthy enough to bring into the office, can they be escorted to a cage inside the law enforcement office?
Sorry if my questions are relatively similar and related, it just there's a discrepency that a dangerous vampire might end up being apprehended peacefully, brought to office, accused and unmasked then go immediately hostile like they do in adventure mode and there wouldnt be any sort of way to secure them from a outburst (like having their hands tied) unless i already exploited disorientation to put dwarves inside a cage trap (regarding question #2)
I didn't change that at all. I agree it is sometimes troubling, though at least you can interrogate an existing prisoner at a chain or cage if you don't want to bring them to an office, as I recall.
Quote from: DG
Is it something like a pause-and-zoom announcement when citizens notice a missing artifact or is it a passive report that waits to be noticed?
There is a big box announcement with a location, yeah -- it shouldn't be so common as to be annoying. It only it once for each escalation through witness report types, if the witness reports escalate in order (e.g. 'artifact missing!' -> 'artifact seen stolen!' -> 'artifact seen handed off!').
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Will we finally be seeing a bit of justice in adventure mode in this release or is that still a ways off? Like could the lord of a village the adventurer angered send an actual assassin after you? Or is that all limited to villains, what if the lord is secretly a villain? Right now sometimes hearthpeople will attack you and follow you around in the village if you anger them in the current version/they run into you on patrol, but that isnt much and it may be only limited to cases where you actually attack the meadhall (though im not sure).
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8063498#msg8063498
We're not quite there yet - as therahedwig notes, we have many of the tools now, and that was part of the point of doing all this, but it'll have to wait a bit now.
Quote
Quote from: therahedwigI've been mucking about with books. I have noticed with certain book forms, like the biographical dictionary and the genealogy, that my adventurer just wrote an essay. Is that because these forms are not properly implemented yet, or is it because my adventurer just knows too little about the world? Because star charts are also not really implemented, but they do give a chart text instead of an essay.Quote from: therahedwig- What determines whether a scholar will actually discover a topic at the end of their research? A coinflip?
- Why can bookbindings and codices not be decorated while scroll rollers can? Is it because the notion of a covering for the codex is missing?
- For many of the non-manual books, guides, chronicles, encyclopedias. I expected them to actually teach adventurers about the content(s), but reading them doesn't seem to do anything. Is this related to the rumour/knowledge split? Do these books do anything on the purest of mechanical levels, or is it mostly unimplemented?
Yeah, I just haven't gotten to the proper level of detail myself. As I recollect, I left some notes behind but didn't flesh it out before release, as often happens. The lack of info wasn't about the adventurer knowledge, but the basic implementation. This is also why they don't teach anything.
Hmm, I have no idea about the binding/codex decorations vs. scroll rollers, and it's not something I can check quickly. I'll have to make a note.
Let's see, fort scholars... they do activity cycles, the length of which is 1-2 days (whether they are pondering or discussing etc.) Once they get through 50 cycles, it rolls 0-50 vs. the number of completed cycles minus 50 to see if they get "breakthrough credit." So at 51, they have a 2% chance, and at 100, they have a 100% chance. Then, it resets the cycle number to zero and gives them breakthrough credit, based on a skill roll plus 100 (for discuss, the other researchers contribute half of their summed skill rolls.) Based on the difficulty (1-4) of the topic, total lifetime breakthrough credit is then assigned a number of 50-sided dice. An easy topic is dice=credit/2500, then /5000, then /10000, then /20000 for level 4 topics. The number of dice cannot exceed 10. Then roll these dice -- if you get a 50 on any of them, discovery! This is a bit archaic, and I'm not suggesting it works particularly well. But that is how it works. Also: if they fail to get the breakthrough after the 50-sided rolls, they have a 2% chance of switching topics, or if their credit exceeds 100000, they always switch topics (though they keep the credit, so returning to the topic later gives them a decent chance at breakthrough.)
Quote from: falcc
1) To what extent will your dwarves interact with prisoners as of this coming release? Will it be possible for the dwarf carrying water to prisoners to become friends with them, try to release them, petition for their release, or be blackmailed by them?
2) What kind of value changes result from thoughts related to imprisonment? Can someone released early or who sees their blackmailer jailed start to value the law and stop being villainous?
3) You mentioned that in world generation you've seen family members completely lose trust in their villainous kin. Are there any interactions family and friends can have with villainous people that sways them from committing further villainy once their current intrigues are thwarted?
4) Can you pull up a gremlin on charges for their lever crimes and send out a squad of dwarves to non-lethally nab the little buggers in the caverns locally? Can you integrate said little buggers from jail instead of cages if you're simultaneously training them?
5) How strong is the influence of law values on decision making when it comes to schemes? How strong is the influence of the trust value on letting somebody convince you that actually laws are arbitrary and worth breaking with schemes?
1. They probably chat with them, yeah, but they don't advocate for them or do anything meaningful.
2. They do a lot of relevant value changes, but it's still very random which one they pick. It doesn't try to find further meaning beyond the event type.
3. Corrupt relations are not currently salvageable, sadly.
4. Ha ha, nope. We haven't merged in any of the ancient code.
5. Gah, it's something like... ten points, at the highest. In an equation with many many factors, where points have arbitrary meaning. Part of the idea behind the adv mode work was to get some verbal feedback for balancing that stuff out in a way that can be expressed, but we didn't get to that, so it's still a very rough equation. We have the historical feedback, but that just gives the most important factor. But hmm, high trust vs. high law probably cancel out evenly, so it'd go back to skill/personality.
Quote from: BlevRuz
Are there any plans for civilisation/era-specific architecture?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8066153#msg8066153
BlevRuz (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8066157#msg8066157
Yeah, I don't have specific plans, but I have some more reading material, and eventually we'll put something together.
Quote from: Inarius
Will AI agents try to re-mount if they fall from their mount ? I mean, is a bandit aware of the fact that he is on something, and that, if he falls from his mount, he can ride it again ?
Second question : do you plan to add the mounting part in Arena too ?
I'd really like to test many things with mounting.
The only people that re-mount are your companions that have mounts -- they always try to mimic your state, which is a bit silly at times, if you don't have a mount, but it is better than nothing. We'll have to do more later.
Arena: you can already set basic mount relationships in the current version, and in the new version, you can also set a creature to be tame/mountable so you can mount/remount it if you are controlling a character, but the AI doesn't understand remounting.
Quote from: Death Dragon
It seems to me that the "worldgen -> post-worldgen -> adventure mode -> fort mode" development process causes most of the new features to just be applied to the game's history generation, because by the time the actual gameplay parts of the development cycle are reached, there isn't much development time left.
Do you still prefer this development structure or would it be better for the game to go through it backwards and start development of new features in adv/fort mode?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068325#msg8068325
Yeah, I agree that it's a bit frustrating, though I do think it works out for the best a lot of times, to test things out and then get them in place. This particular time though, we're uniquely hitting a deadline in a way that is not only a first but hopefully also won't be as much of an issue in the future. So the process has specifically worked out very poorly this time, partially because we were already underway before a Steam deal was even being contemplated, and partially because I didn't think through the date ramifications carefully afterward (I might have delayed more earlier, to get to more fort/adv stuff.) But whatever pain there is this time should help me organize better for next time, and hopefully we'll have more fort/adv stuff and fewer multiple-feature delays for future releases.
Quote from: therahedwig
- Do horses need to graze in adv mode? I looked around, but couldn't see anything regarding it. Horses ignoring you to graze is a pretty universal horseback-riding experience.
- How are you planning on tackling the steam release? Just one big monthslong dev cycle, or are you going to break it up a little so you can fold it into the bugfix cycles and have binaries for M&M to experiment with?
- Will the new romance stuff also be delayed for fort mode to the post-steam releases?
- Do you think the army stuff will take as long as the villains release has? I mean, sure the villains release got delayed by all the linking stuff that cropped up, but as far as I know it is also a pretty ambitious system for a video game. Will the army stuff require a lot of worldgen work, or is it mostly interaction and UI side?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068350#msg8068350
therahedwig (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068435#msg8068435
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068457#msg8068457
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068482#msg8068482
therahedwig (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068510#msg8068510
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068514#msg8068514
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068530#msg8068530
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068539#msg8068539
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8068720#msg8068720
Grazing: Hmm, they don't appear to -- at least the grazing behavior is over in the fort mode idle side currently.
Steam cycle: On the graphical side, it has to be one big cycle - the Steam release is an event of sorts. M&M are developing with us now, so I'm sure they'll have test stuff to play with to make their art iteration easier. We're also hoping to start the stabilizing branching, experimentally, before the Steam release -- so if there's some nasty bug in the villains release that takes time to show, I can release a patch for it while keeping the Steam release on track.
Romance: Dwarf mode got multiple lovers, breakups, divorces, and additional friendship/grudge categories. Didn't do jealous obsessions there yet. Didn't dive into trust/loyalty distinctions since there wasn't much to work with yet, until we get a little further into how traitors work etc., or some other approach that uses them.
Army timing: The villains stuff was pretty intricate. I think the army changes will probably be more straightforward. Though we have ways of complicating things. Also, it's possible the army stuff can be broken into a series of shorter releases. The way the villain stuff worked, we didn't do that (though we should have, probably). The Steam release will also be out at this time, so I probably shouldn't make any assertions about how the releases will be structured specifically, until we get a feel for how that works. But the only time we're really planning to disappear for a bit is the Big Wait, and that'll still have stabilization releases on the 'stable' branch, however we set that up.
Delays/deadlines: Regarding comments about the deadline/delays, this is not pressure coming from Kitfox or the artists. We just have to start -- I've been sitting on the contract more than a year! That's my fault. We should have a better system in place once we're releasing on Steam + Classic in a more understood fashion. I just estimated poorly or flat-out didn't think some of the date matters through. But we'll get back to the delayed features along with the army stuff before the Big Wait, when we have some more control over the timing, and a parallel pipeline for stabilizing bugs etc. in place.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Since elves operate in their own religious system compared to polytheism with the Druid holding higher office than the Queen, they are obviously different than all the other races for the next version who mostly adhere to polytheism (and goblin demonic monotheism, but until that's fixed: atheism). Besides establishments for shrines will there be any kind of barebones recognition of druidism from a playable fortress's perspective should a player switch the religious system in the raws and desire to pray to the natural spirit of the mountains?
Its something i might probe into when the version with priests eventually rolls out, but i imagine they're probably far away from acolytes doing very important nature stuff (purportedly via the mass recreational consumption of hemp plants grown locally) in that one day, a fortress priest/druid might inherit a prominent nationally important noble role via mass support or private selection of successors.
From the player fortress, I don't think it'll be meaningful, no. They don't create wandering priests with variations of their religion, so just through absence I guess. The elf system continues to be undernourished.
Quote from: squamous
1. In a previous update you mentioned that animal people were some of the last holdouts to a necromancer's reign of terror. Are animal men going to receive any significant behavioral changes in the next update?
2. If randomly generated necromancers can create special undead, could we create our own necromancer types which could create unique types of undead? Would it be possible to start an adventure mode playthrough as an undead servant of a necromancer?
3. Could reanimating biome regions create special undead?
4. How exactly does a faction gauge the strength of someone they want to attack? You've mentioned before that civs will do this but what factors are at play here? Population, what metals they use, and what pets they have come to mind.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8069436#msg8069436
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8069466#msg8069466
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8069468#msg8069468
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8069472#msg8069472
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8069596#msg8069596
1. Yeah, nothing changed for them. That was just a group of heroic critters at an elf site, I think.
2. The tags for 'experimenter' etc. are available for modders, though it doesn't offer additional control over what sorts of critters are made. The resurrection ability lets you customize the syndrome though, so that should be moddable in more specific fashion. You can adventure as an experimental humanoid if they escaped and made it to a town - we still don't allow 'evil' civ adventurer starts, though there aren't too many obstacles to that.
3. They don't currently, in vanilla, and they can't do experiments... I have no idea if the resurrection effect works. Probably not?
4. Yeah, there's a whole numeric strength calculation that takes equipment, pops, pets, etc. into consideration, the same calcs that are used in the actual abstract squad battles, though it won't be very accurate to how things work out when they meet in local play on the tile grid.
Quote from: falcc
6. To what extent does your shield protect your mount?
It'd be cool to ride at a fire breathing dragon, deflecting its fearsome breath, preparing to plunge a spear into its beastly heart. It'd be slightly less cool to then have all the fat boil off your horse.
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8070420#msg8070420
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8070438#msg8070438
It doesn't do anything, as I recollect, for attacks. It's the same as it has always been for siege riders, and I don't think their shields did anything. Though for flows... does the shield prevent the flow from entering the square? Then it would work.
Quote from: Beag
If an artifact gets stolen in an area a player adventurer is in, is it possible the player adventurer will be interrogated if they are suspected of stealing it? If so how will responding to an interrogation as a player adventurer work?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8071312#msg8071312
Yeah, as Shonai_Dweller says, we haven't done anything with this yet.
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Quote from: voliolWhat is this ”limb regrowth effect” from the latest devlog? Some new magic effect, or something old like healing due to transformation? Am I right in assuming the latter parts meant this effect (whether new or old) will be moddable in the upcoming version?Quote from: Eric BlankToady, did you remove the body reset from transformations, then?
Can this effect be turned around to remove tissues from limbs, like in the old Armok game?
Eric Blank (op2): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8071459#msg8071459
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8071467#msg8071467
Eric Blank (op2): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8071468#msg8071468
Ah, it's the shrine thing, yeah, sorry. There are about... ten, twelve new healing effects available as part of syndromes, for all of the bad stuff. Not just open wounds, missing limbs, and bleeding, but for nerves, infection, swelling, dizziness, etc. -- though there isn't one for actually "curing" poison itself, just symptoms, and the shrine healing syndrome lasts only a short while, so it wouldn't help for long. We still need an effect that removes existing syndromes by class/token/etc.
I have a note for fixing the body transformations (by storing wound states, since transferring them is too hard for now), and thought I was going to get there, but now it is in the delay pile.
Tissue removal: Ha ha, I didn't add a new effect, but syndromes like rot can already target tissue layers, so you can make a skin rotting spell now if you want. But I don't remember if that can get you all the way to the 'missing' state, or just a very disgusting one.
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Quote from: UntrustedlifeSo the release will be in january according to the steam update, does this mean you didnt get everything you wanted for this release done, how much did you get done, can you give us a rundown on how close you came to that? How happy are you with it? (I like the good old Tarn Adams rambling)
Will making adventure mode a "fun game" still be a priority after the steam release given that the new players will likely focus on fort mode? Ive been worried about this. As I absolutely love adventure mode and i can see a ton of potential and love it even now given the ludicrous variety of roles the player can fill and the reactive world sim.Quote from: clinodevDo you really mean to finalize "Classic" in January, given the previously stated desire to sort out raid crashes and stress/memory issues on top of all the unknown new issues likely to arise from 18 months of pretty amazing and jam-packed development since the last release? Yes, you wrote "After any fires are put out," and I know there's some. . . tension. . . here on the forum between the "Hey, maybe some bug fixes?" and "No, no fix, only feature!" camps, but if there's ever been a time to square some things away before starting a major development cycle, perhaps it's now? Even the biggest "Feature" pushers eventually admitted some stress changes might have been nice by October 2018.
Feature delays/Steam/bug scheduling: I'm writing this FotF before the Jan 1 dev log, but the anticipation is that the answers to your questions will be there, to the extent they weren't already addressed above in some of the other Steam cycle questions (e.g. existence of stabilization branch etc.)
Potential fort mode focus: Along with all the fort stuff post Steam, adv mode medical, adv army stuff, delayed villainous stuff and all that are still the plan. I'm not sure what sorts of change-ups will be in store after the Steam release, but we've always been making the game we wanted to make, more or less, and we're going to keep doing that. RPGs don't do *badly* on Steam as far as I know.
Quote from: JesterHell696
Can characters that got cursed by being bitten by a werecritter be cured by praying to a/the (right) god?
No syndrome cures of any kind so far, sadly.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 01, 2020, 03:52:00 am
Post by: clinodev on January 01, 2020, 03:59:45 am
When I posted them on the Discord distribution thingy, Victoria immediately replied: "Omg Tarn haha take a break" ;D
Additionally, thanks for a really great and complete Dev Log this month! Many, many more people read that and I think it's going to ease a lot of people's questions and anxieties.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 01, 2020, 05:17:03 am
I didn't change that at all. I agree it is sometimes troubling, though at least you can interrogate an existing prisoner at a chain or cage if you don't want to bring them to an office, as I recall.Quote1. They probably chat with them, yeah, but they don't advocate for them or do anything meaningful.
Very interesting, having a goblin inside someone's room as a decoration or in the 'zoo' (or any other kind of person) should in theory let them flex their social skills for practice on a live participant who can't run away.
Might still expect a issue report though like "Room covered in spit, dont know why" from angry goblins who don't like the social interaction. I think i might take the pacifist route out, let dwarves work their social skills on a goblin then gently pit them in a isolated shut off area soon as their heads are full of dwarf philosophy, friendships and bunkum and see how far they get as they run for their lives off the map.
*EDIT - Other possible issue reports like 'Dwarf does not sleep due to unknown noise disturbance' of a goblin shouting all the while from the chain at the opposite side of the room.
Post by: Eric Blank on January 01, 2020, 02:46:02 pm
Post by: therahedwig on January 01, 2020, 06:45:08 pm
Post by: JesterHell696 on January 01, 2020, 10:34:01 pm
Post by: Witty on January 02, 2020, 12:11:00 am
Post by: Knight Otu on January 02, 2020, 06:48:56 am
Post by: darkhog on January 04, 2020, 07:51:39 am
Also, more importantly, what are some optimizations you can do in game's coding so FPS death, if not becoming a thing of the past, can be way less common? Note that I mean performance issues during game play, not anything related to world/history generation (for that I'm a patient person and can let it generate over night).
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 04, 2020, 09:10:42 am
There is no silver bullet for FPS death, or it would have been fired off a long time ago. It's a matter of tweaking things in a lot of places, basically, which is an ongoing job I think Toady performs behind the scenes. The battle basically manages to keep the rate at which the FPS death happens to remain about the same as DF becomes larger and more complex, but is unlikely to cure it.
Post by: Luckyowl on January 05, 2020, 10:07:06 am
Post by: therahedwig on January 05, 2020, 12:33:00 pm
not sure if anyone asked this, but is there a way you can make the rate, and reload time on range weapons a token so we can edit and customize different type of weapons?
Given that there was a suggestion thread for it a few months back, probably not :D
btw, questions to toady should be marked (lime)green, so he can identify them as questions directly to him swiftly :)
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 05, 2020, 04:35:59 pm
Not originally by me, just found those lying around and thought you could shed some light. That being so:
1. Do abstract entity populations have any impact on historical figure genetic profiles, or is it limited to the historical figures?
2. Do genes besides colour have dominance or recessiveness?
3. Are personality goals limited to one per creature?
(...Yeah, not entirely relevant, I know. But a lone copyeditor like myself just occasionally runs into something they can't quite seem to verify or fact-check on their own, really.)
Post by: Eschar on January 05, 2020, 11:50:31 pm
[/color]
Post by: Egan_BW on January 06, 2020, 12:11:24 am
[color=limegreen]
Post by: voliol on January 06, 2020, 04:37:53 am
not sure if anyone asked this, but is there a way you can make the rate, and reload time on range weapons a token so we can edit and customize different type of weapons?
Given that there was a suggestion thread for it a few months back, probably not :D
btw, questions to toady should be marked (lime)green, so he can identify them as questions directly to him swiftly :)
It would be interesting to know some of the technical details as to why (not) though.
I marked your comment lime green Luckyowl, in case you don’t frequent this thread.
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 06, 2020, 05:12:27 am
You don't need the closing tag; it's broken because there's an extraneous space in the tag. It should look like this:
[color=limegreen]
Thanks to the both of you, but...
You know how some people would knot strings round their fingers by way of reminders for whatever? The mistake was deliberate in that sense.
Post by: Eschar on January 06, 2020, 10:07:17 am
You don't need the closing tag; it's broken because there's an extraneous space in the tag. It should look like this:
[color=limegreen]
Thanks to the both of you, but...
You know how some people would knot strings round their fingers by way of reminders for whatever? The mistake was deliberate in that sense.
I'm not sure I understand you here,
Post by: therahedwig on January 06, 2020, 11:29:31 am
I'm not sure I understand you here,Silverwing deliberately mangled the bbcode so that they'd remember to get back to it later when they felt confident with their question. It's the first time I have seen this way of handling it myself.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 07, 2020, 11:50:12 am
I was fascinated by the Wizard as id looked into gathering little tidbits for archaic RAW research, i doubt anything is left in place from the 2d version to use but your description but its very interesting to learn it was attached to a event like that. I would ask a question if i could think of one but it seems a bit arbitary according to its age and the way magic will change for the 'Big Wait' with the wizard tower and starting scenario fluff thrown in too.
Just to confirm, you're not going crazy and the RAW's are there in the string-dump and regular RAW files, but i think it might not have properly been realised/added given there's no recollection of elves causing Treants springing up on the wiki (and related) which is pretty heavily transcribed from forum information. Least not in recent memory.
- Arrows particularly list their non-existant elf variants within fortress mode's stockpile listings, but i've never seen them in either mode up to current personally
Code: ("treants body plan") [Select]
[BODYGLOSS:CLAW_HAND:TRUNK:BRANCH_ARM:LEG_STUMP:ROOTS_FOOT]Pity, they seemed to be really cool with a lot of thought put into them too. While the thought is still hot in our minds
Would you consider the concept of treant redemption towards your dwarves retired? Considering the small scope of summonable critters that may be manifested in the upcoming villian update & the big wait itself
Post by: therahedwig on January 07, 2020, 12:50:38 pm
Quote
Arrows particularly list their non-existant elf variants within fortress mode's stockpile listings, but i've never seen them in either mode up to current personallyI have arrows and bows that I got from the elves in my current fort... noone knows how to use them, because, you know, exotic weapons, but I do have them. It's those things turning into spiked balls that isn't there right now...
I wouldn't be surprised if the treants are just waiting for myth and magic to make the elves marginally more interesting.
Are werebeasts also among the teleporting (mega)beasts, or do they actually path the world like visitors do?
EDIT: just to save everyone else's time, this was the previous quote on it:
Quote
migrants teleport, diplomats/liaisons teleport, merchant caravans coming to the fort teleport - the oldest calendar events. Are those the only ones left? All of the 'heroic' and religious and scholarly professions move as armies do (to the fort and otherwise), as do siegers/thieves now. Ah, beast attacks (mega/forgotten/etc.) are still world map teleporters -- mainly because the FBs live underground and underground travel is still annoying.
Post by: Pillbo on January 07, 2020, 03:25:47 pm
Post by: therahedwig on January 07, 2020, 03:40:31 pm
The thing about these things is that each requires OS specific knowledge, which is one of the reasons cross platform applications are not necessarily ubiquitous.
Post by: Pillbo on January 07, 2020, 03:48:45 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 10, 2020, 06:14:26 am
Given the way that adventuring can reveal map features to your dwarves by expanding non-settlement knowledge of the world for the fortress mode world map, can we extract information about places from interrogated prisoners or is it restricted to related rumors only leading you to unmarked areas and tidbits of info about persons?
The kind of clauses we already have about invisible caves being un-raidable without a rumor leading players there apply for instance (without having the config off and seeing caves all the time), and the existing state of slabs and their guardians having loose oddly broadly known map co-ordinates.
Post by: clinodev on January 12, 2020, 03:19:53 am
As far as the graphical release is concerned, you've mentioned that initially there will be no Mac version. Does that mean the Mac version will be put on semi-permanent hold, or will there be an effort to hit the three OS versions in some subsequent release pre-Big Wait?
From the reddit AMA, my impression is that he very much wants MacOS and Linux versions, but can't commit until the (development) Windows version is finished so he can actually test his procedures. This is in effect the current situation incidentally, he makes the Windows version and does what he can for MacOS and Linux afterwards, he's just so far been successful, even if it took a little longer like with the Linux version a few years ago.
Quote
TarnAdams
[The Great Toad himself[F,S] 138 points 10 months ago
We haven't 100% committed on this one for Day 1 just because the current build set up is sooooo bad, for both Mac and Linux. I can't even play it through my virtual machine (the window is too small), and my Mac Mini is 10 years old, and I need to make sure I can get Mac working as the OS updates (we've had trouble on newer OSX). We'll keep people posted on this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/b147yh/im_tarn_aka_toady_one_dwarf_fortress_is_coming_to/eij5hh5/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/b147yh/im_tarn_aka_toady_one_dwarf_fortress_is_coming_to/eij5hh5/)
Hopefully better build environments come around before then.
Post by: Schmaven on January 15, 2020, 06:23:37 am
Since Steam isn't too keen on version numbers that start with a zero, do you think they'd accept just moving the first decimal point 2 digits to the right but otherwise keep the same version system? So version 0.44.12 would become 44.12 etc. I know eventually Dwarf Fortress will drift away from the list of features that helps determine this number, but it's really cool to have some rough percentage of included features so prominently visible like it has been.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 15, 2020, 07:04:35 am
+1.
Since Steam isn't too keen on version numbers that start with a zero, do you think they'd accept just moving the first decimal point 2 digits to the right but otherwise keep the same version system? So version 0.44.12 would become 44.12 etc. I know eventually Dwarf Fortress will drift away from the list of features that helps determine this number, but it's really cool to have some rough percentage of included features so prominently visible like it has been.
Was just thinking this today. Seems a good solution to Steam's awkward rules.
Post by: clinodev on January 15, 2020, 07:33:29 am
+1.
Since Steam isn't too keen on version numbers that start with a zero, do you think they'd accept just moving the first decimal point 2 digits to the right but otherwise keep the same version system? So version 0.44.12 would become 44.12 etc. I know eventually Dwarf Fortress will drift away from the list of features that helps determine this number, but it's really cool to have some rough percentage of included features so prominently visible like it has been.
Was just thinking this today. Seems a good solution to Steam's awkward rules.
A solution like this also eliminates most of the issue of having different names and numbers for the paid and free versions, in relation to community efforts like the wiki.
On the subreddit we fairly regularly hear from new players who can only find the "clearly outdated" DF2014 version of the wiki as it is (and yes I'm aware the wiki folk have their logical reasons.) I can only imagine the confusion a version "1.03a" next to a "0.48.03", for instance, would cause. Perhaps dropping the preliminary "0." on both would be ideal, v48.03 for everyone!
Post by: LordBaal on January 15, 2020, 04:11:58 pm
Of course this would bring about the end of the world but imagine the profits.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 15, 2020, 04:37:17 pm
Since there'll still only be one bug tracker they would just update the numbering for both versions. Won't be the first time the numbering system has been updated.+1.
Since Steam isn't too keen on version numbers that start with a zero, do you think they'd accept just moving the first decimal point 2 digits to the right but otherwise keep the same version system? So version 0.44.12 would become 44.12 etc. I know eventually Dwarf Fortress will drift away from the list of features that helps determine this number, but it's really cool to have some rough percentage of included features so prominently visible like it has been.
Was just thinking this today. Seems a good solution to Steam's awkward rules.
A solution like this also eliminates most of the issue of having different names and numbers for the paid and free versions, in relation to community efforts like the wiki.
On the subreddit we fairly regularly hear from new players who can only find the "clearly outdated" DF2014 version of the wiki as it is (and yes I'm aware the wiki folk have their logical reasons.) I can only imagine the confusion a version "1.03a" next to a "0.48.03", for instance, would cause. Perhaps dropping the preliminary "0." on both would be ideal, v48.03 for everyone!
As for "Df2014". Well, yeah, confusing as it is, that's for someone else to figure out.
Post by: voliol on January 15, 2020, 04:57:24 pm
At least DF2014 superficially matches 0.4x.xx. I can’t see that happening next time, unless 0.5x.01 releases in 2025.Since there'll still only be one bug tracker they would just update the numbering for both versions. Won't be the first time the numbering system has been updated.+1.
Since Steam isn't too keen on version numbers that start with a zero, do you think they'd accept just moving the first decimal point 2 digits to the right but otherwise keep the same version system? So version 0.44.12 would become 44.12 etc. I know eventually Dwarf Fortress will drift away from the list of features that helps determine this number, but it's really cool to have some rough percentage of included features so prominently visible like it has been.
Was just thinking this today. Seems a good solution to Steam's awkward rules.
A solution like this also eliminates most of the issue of having different names and numbers for the paid and free versions, in relation to community efforts like the wiki.
On the subreddit we fairly regularly hear from new players who can only find the "clearly outdated" DF2014 version of the wiki as it is (and yes I'm aware the wiki folk have their logical reasons.) I can only imagine the confusion a version "1.03a" next to a "0.48.03", for instance, would cause. Perhaps dropping the preliminary "0." on both would be ideal, v48.03 for everyone!
As for "Df2014". Well, yeah, confusing as it is, that's for someone else to figure out.
Post by: Bumber on January 16, 2020, 12:24:57 am
Or Papa Gabe can dump a couple million dollars on Toady to hire a elite team of programers to push DF up to version 1.0 in a matter of weeks/months.
Of course this would bring about the end of the world but imagine the profits.
You're forgetting to convert to Valve Time. It could end up with a release date of Soon™.
Post by: JesterHell696 on January 16, 2020, 02:40:52 am
Or Papa Gabe can dump a couple million dollars on Toady to hire a elite team of programers to push DF up to version 1.0 in a matter of weeks/months.
Of course this would bring about the end of the world but imagine the profits.
You're forgetting to convert to Valve Time. It could end up with a release date of Soon™.
It could be released alongside Half-Life 3.
Post by: VineFynn on January 17, 2020, 07:06:07 pm
What does this translate into gameplay-wise? Can a sufficiently good/strong identity break free from a sufficiently weak necromancer?
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 18, 2020, 07:33:57 am
"(Undead lieutenants) are under the control of the necromancer, but can retain much of their old identity."
What does this translate into gameplay-wise? Can a sufficiently good/strong identity break free from a sufficiently weak necromancer?
No, they're bound to their master by the dark art of necromancy, the personaity is just a distinction flair as they're still 'in pocket' as you might say. Toady's forward delayed goals are to have the player find their true name, likely by scribbing up slabs quickly in order to put them to rest.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 18, 2020, 09:06:09 am
Devblog features an example of one who was made prisoner, then went on to lead a life as a farmer. They can do that because they don't look dead and can use general skills unlike zombies. Probably retain some skills from when they were alive too."(Undead lieutenants) are under the control of the necromancer, but can retain much of their old identity."
What does this translate into gameplay-wise? Can a sufficiently good/strong identity break free from a sufficiently weak necromancer?
No, they're bound to their master by the dark art of necromancy, the personaity is just a distinction flair as they're still 'in pocket' as you might say. Toady's forward delayed goals are to have the player find their true name, likely by scribbing up slabs quickly in order to put them to rest.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 18, 2020, 03:41:09 pm
Devblog features an example of one who was made prisoner, then went on to lead a life as a farmer. They can do that because they don't look dead and can use general skills unlike zombies. Probably retain some skills from when they were alive too."(Undead lieutenants) are under the control of the necromancer, but can retain much of their old identity."
What does this translate into gameplay-wise? Can a sufficiently good/strong identity break free from a sufficiently weak necromancer?
No, they're bound to their master by the dark art of necromancy, the personaity is just a distinction flair as they're still 'in pocket' as you might say. Toady's forward delayed goals are to have the player find their true name, likely by scribbing up slabs quickly in order to put them to rest.
I was dispelling the "Can a sufficiently good/strong identity break free from a sufficiently weak necromancer?" bit mainly, yeah. Without a necromancer they'll go about maybe pretending to live and get swept up into settlement code for jobs it seems but they still hate all living things.
Necromancy's control over the dead is absolute, least until the Magic Arc when the different implementations of magic might mean that a sub-adequate caster, or faulty for whatever reason casting wand might raise the dead, but you'll have no control over their actions directed towards you and everyone else in part of a misfire.
Post by: VineFynn on January 19, 2020, 01:25:57 am
Devblog features an example of one who was made prisoner, then went on to lead a life as a farmer. They can do that because they don't look dead and can use general skills unlike zombies. Probably retain some skills from when they were alive too."(Undead lieutenants) are under the control of the necromancer, but can retain much of their old identity."
What does this translate into gameplay-wise? Can a sufficiently good/strong identity break free from a sufficiently weak necromancer?
No, they're bound to their master by the dark art of necromancy, the personaity is just a distinction flair as they're still 'in pocket' as you might say. Toady's forward delayed goals are to have the player find their true name, likely by scribbing up slabs quickly in order to put them to rest.
Thanks, sounds like exactly what I've come to expect from DF lol
Post by: Criperum on January 20, 2020, 06:38:06 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 20, 2020, 09:25:55 am
Are friendship and grudges depend on personal traits or they are totally random? Like dwarves with opposing personal values are more possible to become rivals than those who have similar.
In the past it was like this, dwarves who grudged each other took grim satisfaction when the other died and disliked speaking to them based to gaining negative score upticks in each of their relationships, humorless dwarves also found other comedians grating and annoying until they eventually became grudged, even if it wasn't reciprocated.
Its sort of telling that the fix to relationships would be more needed than ever, because its actually a big crutch of DF's gameplay for having the relationships in the fortress via turtling spiral out of control when too many dwarves are put in too much of enclosed space leading to Boatmurdered level disasters on occasion.
Post by: Eric Blank on January 20, 2020, 10:35:48 am
Most random npc residents dont even care about invaders conquering their site enough to participate in an insurrection now, in adventure mode at least. How if at all has that changed?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 20, 2020, 04:41:19 pm
Probably already been asked/answered but when you return to it later, do you intend to add angry mobs to go after corrupt officials? Will we then be able to tell people about the corruption and incite them to do something about it?Insurrection and eventual take over of the fortress was put of until after Steam, so possibly nothing at all.
Most random npc residents dont even care about invaders conquering their site enough to participate in an insurrection now, in adventure mode at least. How if at all has that changed?
Post by: VineFynn on January 21, 2020, 05:33:08 am
Are friendship and grudges depend on personal traits or they are totally random? Like dwarves with opposing personal values are more possible to become rivals than those who have similar.
In the past it was like this, dwarves who grudged each other took grim satisfaction when the other died and disliked speaking to them based to gaining negative score upticks in each of their relationships, humorless dwarves also found other comedians grating and annoying until they eventually became grudged, even if it wasn't reciprocated.
Its sort of telling that the fix to relationships would be more needed than ever, because its actually a big crutch of DF's gameplay for having the relationships in the fortress via turtling spiral out of control when too many dwarves are put in too much of enclosed space leading to Boatmurdered level disasters on occasion.
Perhaps dwarves need a "willingness to tolerate other people's nonsense" variable too lol
Post by: Egan_BW on January 21, 2020, 05:34:23 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 21, 2020, 07:26:56 am
That's just the Tolerance facet, right?
Its not racially present if i remember correctly, only goblins have it (positive amounts of it). Here's the wiki for it (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Personality_trait#TOLERANT) but im quite sure the alignment of Dwarven values doesnt raise it up, it doesnt do anything particular either unless Toady would like to wade in and tell us something about it.
Unlike v0.34.11 most of them dont carry a effect, or have been removed and shifted around like liberalism (Rebelliousness) (http://liberalism (Rebelliousness)) in response to attitudes to nobles. Its really unsure on whether to say the new screens introduced with the 44 tavern release were really finished in retrospect but the next version should hopefully polish things up.
Not to derail, but while on the topic, amongst their number is
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 21, 2020, 11:35:54 am
Probably already been asked/answered but when you return to it later, do you intend to add angry mobs to go after corrupt officials? Will we then be able to tell people about the corruption and incite them to do something about it?Insurrection and eventual take over of the fortress was put of until after Steam, so possibly nothing at all.
Most random npc residents dont even care about invaders conquering their site enough to participate in an insurrection now, in adventure mode at least. How if at all has that changed?
In reference to inssurrections they were talking about the current world activity insurrections, which have not been changed and still function the same. Not fort mode.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 23, 2020, 01:36:53 am
Post by: therahedwig on January 24, 2020, 12:09:18 pm
That doesn't seem like it would be a df generated name, wait is it... karmo... oh!
Anyhow, hype. Especially really nice to see this last bit of exposition-mechanics being squeezed in, given how much worldgen work there has been.
Post by: Criperum on January 24, 2020, 05:37:15 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 24, 2020, 05:39:53 pm
Not sure if it was asked before but what will be the copyrights for game soundtracks? I'm asking because when the game is on Steam I'll start making a series of tutorials as i did before and i used DF soundtrack as background music for it. Will i be able to do it or youtube can potentially ban me for it?As long as you are playing dwaf fortress, and as you are playing the game's music is playing, you should be fine. The issue comes when using it in unrelated videos.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 24, 2020, 05:42:14 pm
Not sure if it was asked before but what will be the copyrights for game soundtracks? I'm asking because when the game is on Steam I'll start making a series of tutorials as i did before and i used DF soundtrack as background music for it. Will i be able to do it or youtube can potentially ban me for it?Maybe better directing this to someone at Kitfox. Doubt they read fotf and won't reply here anyway.
Does YouTube ban video game videos that use that videogame"s music? Wow.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 24, 2020, 09:02:47 pm
Not sure if it was asked before but what will be the copyrights for game soundtracks? I'm asking because when the game is on Steam I'll start making a series of tutorials as i did before and i used DF soundtrack as background music for it. Will i be able to do it or youtube can potentially ban me for it?Maybe better directing this to someone at Kitfox. Doubt they read fotf and won't reply here anyway.
Does YouTube ban video game videos that use that videogame"s music? Wow.
No , generally youtube doesn't do that.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 24, 2020, 10:30:48 pm
Quote
Amusingly, instead of mentioning Omrak, a bug at first gave the report as the top villain having "played for sympathy using a shared belief in an unidentified creature"Leave it to Dwarf Fortress to produce an accidental allusion to the New Testament.
Post by: FAA on January 25, 2020, 07:47:43 pm
EDIT: Why won’t DF use mapgen system similar to the one in Cataclysm: DDA? It’s very simple and results in hundreds of structure types, each much more believable than anything DF offers atm.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 25, 2020, 08:35:02 pm
Does the economy update for the next version mean that items in the game world will finally be made of metals that make sense? As in, mostly of iron/steel and not platinum or gold all the time?Lime green for questions to Toady
EDIT: Why won’t DF use mapgen system similar to the one in Cataclysm: DDA? It’s very simple and results in hundreds of structure types, each much more believable than anything DF offers atm.
On structures you really need to be more exact. What about structures should be better? What isn't realistic? Doubt Toady's going to go play CDDA and study their code just to answer your question.
(Of course, if you're going to write a lot, it's better off in the Suggestions forum).
And there isn't an "Economy update" in the next version (besides some abstract accounts for bribery and weapon upgrades). So, it'll work as it's always done probably.
Post by: FAA on January 26, 2020, 06:43:23 am
Does the economy update for the next version mean that items in the game world will finally be made of metals that make sense? As in, mostly of iron/steel and not platinum or gold all the time?Lime green for questions to Toady
EDIT: Why won’t DF use mapgen system similar to the one in Cataclysm: DDA? It’s very simple and results in hundreds of structure types, each much more believable than anything DF offers atm.
On structures you really need to be more exact. What about structures should be better? What isn't realistic? Doubt Toady's going to go play CDDA and study their code just to answer your question.
(Of course, if you're going to write a lot, it's better off in the Suggestions forum).
And there isn't an "Economy update" in the next version (besides some abstract accounts for bribery and weapon upgrades). So, it'll work as it's always done probably.
Sorry for a bit of OT. I’ll clarify what I meant.
Cataclysm uses a simple jsonised code that allows them to tie a tile to a letter and quickly write structures. They have groups of items that each structure can spawn as well so a house will spawn a different set than a police station, a restaurant or one of about 80 types of shops. And there will be a lot of plausible variation in all of them.
The great thing is that every building you enter feels like it could be real - clothes and pillows in the bedroom, alcohol and food in the fridge, medicine in the bathrooms and clothes in the drawers. Shops have display racks, police stations have lockers, and loot always makes sense. Structures in DF are way too random and don’t make nearly as much sense, it ruins the feeling of a real world.
Reddit widely regards Cataclysm DDA as one of the best, if not THE best roguelike currently available. It would make sense to at least see how they do stuff. They have a much larger team of volunteer developers so they can add stuff much faster than DF, but still, could be a source of inspiration. The experimental version which is the version to play has progressed immensely throughout 2019. More than any other roguelike I know.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 26, 2020, 06:48:30 am
Is that a question?Does the economy update for the next version mean that items in the game world will finally be made of metals that make sense? As in, mostly of iron/steel and not platinum or gold all the time?Lime green for questions to Toady
EDIT: Why won’t DF use mapgen system similar to the one in Cataclysm: DDA? It’s very simple and results in hundreds of structure types, each much more believable than anything DF offers atm.
On structures you really need to be more exact. What about structures should be better? What isn't realistic? Doubt Toady's going to go play CDDA and study their code just to answer your question.
(Of course, if you're going to write a lot, it's better off in the Suggestions forum).
And there isn't an "Economy update" in the next version (besides some abstract accounts for bribery and weapon upgrades). So, it'll work as it's always done probably.
Cataclysm uses a simple jsonised code that allows them to tie a tile to a letter and quickly write structures. They have groups of items that each structure can spawn as well so a house will spawn a different set than a police station, a restaurant or one of about 80 types of shops. And there will be a lot of plausible variation in all of them.
The great thing is that every building you enter feels like it could be real - clothes and pillows in the bedroom, alcohol and food in the fridge, medicine in the bathrooms and clothes in the drawers. Shops have display racks, police stations have lockers, and loot always makes sense. Structures in DF are way too random and don’t make nearly as much sense, it ruins the feeling of a real world.
Ah well, whatever...
Post by: voliol on January 26, 2020, 06:57:08 am
Does the economy update for the next version mean that items in the game world will finally be made of metals that make sense? As in, mostly of iron/steel and not platinum or gold all the time?
EDIT: Why won’t DF use mapgen system similar to the one in Cataclysm: DDA? It’s very simple and results in hundreds of structure types, each much more believable than anything DF offers atm.
Dwarf Fortress is getting a map rewrite due The Big Wait, in some year or two. I don't know much smaller structures will be touched upon then, but taking a look at other code for inspiration is a sound idea. From what I've played of CDDA that game also has really nice-looking generated structures, so it feels like a good contender for code to be looked at.
Also, we should remember that CDDA is a younger game than Dwarf Fortress, so Toady couldn't use it as a reference when originally writing the DF structure code. I'm not sure exactly how the CDDA code works, but even simple ideas can be exceedingly difficult to come up with.
Post by: FAA on January 26, 2020, 08:19:09 am
Post by: LordBaal on January 26, 2020, 08:47:19 am
Post by: FAA on January 26, 2020, 09:14:44 am
Does the economy update for the next version mean that items in the game world will finally be made of metals that make sense? As in, mostly of iron/steel and not platinum or gold all the time?Lime green for questions to Toady
EDIT: Why won’t DF use mapgen system similar to the one in Cataclysm: DDA? It’s very simple and results in hundreds of structure types, each much more believable than anything DF offers atm.
On structures you really need to be more exact. What about structures should be better? What isn't realistic? Doubt Toady's going to go play CDDA and study their code just to answer your question.
(Of course, if you're going to write a lot, it's better off in the Suggestions forum).
And there isn't an "Economy update" in the next version (besides some abstract accounts for bribery and weapon upgrades). So, it'll work as it's always done probably.
I based it on this excerpt from the “development” page:
World economy
Supply/demand based on current available entity resources etc.
Expand on trade/tribute relationships formed in world generation
They’re listed as “Partially done”. I also remember reading somewhere that this update will include some economy changes.
EDIT: I remember reading somewhere that sites were supposed to use materials available to them. I think I read it in Steam updates but I’m not sure.
Post by: therahedwig on January 26, 2020, 10:00:51 am
Mind, items of platinum and gold are a lot rarer in adventure mode than it might seem from your average caravan load-out. Most of the stuff that is truly pulled from the aether has DF's weird materials going on (forgotten beast parchment scrolls, divine metals, barrels of blood...), but once you go into the towns things normalize a little (because the town's generation of stuff has a bit more detailed economy and resource structures behind it).
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 26, 2020, 11:00:01 am
Quote
Toady's Trade map from 12/13/2018 devlog, though its mainly used to denote the colors in where religions are rather than particular trade or locations. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/religion_trade_map.png)Quote from: Toady1(10/23/2018) This week involved a lot of bug-fixing from last week, so there's not as much concrete progress to report. For instance, a human trading company called the Present Hall was wildly successful trading various leathers and bones for crafting, and eventually had enough clout to open a branch warehouse inside a dwarf fortress for the first time. Can't resist that draltha leather. This turned out to be a strategic error, as two short years later, a forgotten beast obliterated the fortress, the warehouse, and killed everyone inside. So, what's the correct response? Close the destroyed branch? No, no, you stimulate the (non-existent) economy by hiring local. Forgotten beast, you're the new (ruined) warehouse administrator, congratulations! Those sorts of fixes were straightforward, but more time was burned with screwed-up resource lists, naming problems and some stability issues.
At some point with possibly more post-fix refinement (or sooner if someone sets up a novel way with modifications), the very real threat of Goblins or Humans getting aquisition of secret alloy metals like steel by some manner will become a reality on forts who have been running for a little while.
Post by: Ekaton on January 26, 2020, 08:24:14 pm
One thing other than mapgen would be the very clear set of traits for each item. Items have capabilities valued in points to determine how good they are for, e.g. bolt turning, butchering, lifting, hammering or heating food. The way you craft with various tools and how you can use different items like honey instead of sugar or lumps of steel instead of chunks, makes it absolutely amazing. I really wish we could see something like that in DF. You need an axe to cut a tree, a woodsaw or a saw or even an axe but it will take time to cut the trumk into planks, hammer and nails or ropes to build a wall. It’s insanely satisfying and immersive.
The question, I suppose is: can something like that be done in DF, within the constrains of its engine? The way it works in CDDA is wonderful and insanely easy and fast to code. If the simplicity can be replicated, it could make development faster and smoother.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 26, 2020, 09:42:47 pm
Hope I’m not getting too much off topic, but Cataclysm is definitely a great source of inspiration. It has a great mapgen and an incredibly in-depth crafting system. Both are very easy to code. I added some NPCs, items and places with almost no knowledge in the field of programming. It’s insanely easy.Again, you can't and won't ever be able to code anything in Dwarf Fortress. It's not an Open Source game.
One thing other than mapgen would be the very clear set of traits for each item. Items have capabilities valued in points to determine how good they are for, e.g. bolt turning, butchering, lifting, hammering or heating food. The way you craft with various tools and how you can use different items like honey instead of sugar or lumps of steel instead of chunks, makes it absolutely amazing. I really wish we could see something like that in DF. You need an axe to cut a tree, a woodsaw or a saw or even an axe but it will take time to cut the trumk into planks, hammer and nails or ropes to build a wall. It’s insanely satisfying and immersive.
The question, I suppose is: can something like that be done in DF, within the constrains of its engine? The way it works in CDDA is wonderful and insanely easy and fast to code. If the simplicity can be replicated, it could make development faster and smoother.
So without knowing how fast and smooth Toady's current building procedures are we can't know that rewriting the code so it works the same as CDDA will help him at all.
He seemingly added castles, monasteries and bandit forts in a week so it doesn't seem that it's causing him many problems right now.
Devlog:
8/01 "now we can start on maps".
8/07 "The map work is complete. I finished bandit and mercenary forts, merchant company counting houses, guildhalls, monasteries, and improved necromancer towers."
--
Now, for modding options, it would be worth hearing about what may be possible later. Although site and building design will likely be part of the fixed world editor and that's coming after the map & site rewrite, so it may not be clear yet what will be possible.
Post by: kitfoxgames on January 27, 2020, 10:09:41 am
Not sure if it was asked before but what will be the copyrights for game soundtracks? I'm asking because when the game is on Steam I'll start making a series of tutorials as i did before and i used DF soundtrack as background music for it. Will i be able to do it or youtube can potentially ban me for it?
Yeah, that should be fine! :) Preferably you'd give credits in the description for the soundtrack, but Youtube shouldn't ding you for it or anything, especially if it's DF-based.
Post by: FAA on January 27, 2020, 04:41:49 pm
Post by: FAA on January 27, 2020, 04:43:57 pm
Hope I’m not getting too much off topic, but Cataclysm is definitely a great source of inspiration. It has a great mapgen and an incredibly in-depth crafting system. Both are very easy to code. I added some NPCs, items and places with almost no knowledge in the field of programming. It’s insanely easy.Again, you can't and won't ever be able to code anything in Dwarf Fortress. It's not an Open Source game.
One thing other than mapgen would be the very clear set of traits for each item. Items have capabilities valued in points to determine how good they are for, e.g. bolt turning, butchering, lifting, hammering or heating food. The way you craft with various tools and how you can use different items like honey instead of sugar or lumps of steel instead of chunks, makes it absolutely amazing. I really wish we could see something like that in DF. You need an axe to cut a tree, a woodsaw or a saw or even an axe but it will take time to cut the trumk into planks, hammer and nails or ropes to build a wall. It’s insanely satisfying and immersive.
The question, I suppose is: can something like that be done in DF, within the constrains of its engine? The way it works in CDDA is wonderful and insanely easy and fast to code. If the simplicity can be replicated, it could make development faster and smoother.
So without knowing how fast and smooth Toady's current building procedures are we can't know that rewriting the code so it works the same as CDDA will help him at all.
He seemingly added castles, monasteries and bandit forts in a week so it doesn't seem that it's causing him many problems right now.
Devlog:
8/01 "now we can start on maps".
8/07 "The map work is complete. I finished bandit and mercenary forts, merchant company counting houses, guildhalls, monasteries, and improved necromancer towers."
--
Now, for modding options, it would be worth hearing about what may be possible later. Although site and building design will likely be part of the fixed world editor and that's coming after the map & site rewrite, so it may not be clear yet what will be possible.
I’ve started adventure mode today and most buildings are just walls, lacking furniture entirely. That’s probably one of the weakest points - there are structures but none of them are believable. The world is really shallow. Adding new structures doesn’t matter if they’re so shallow. I suggested following Cataclysm because, compared to DF, ALL structures have appropriate furniture, and there are hundreds of them.
Post by: voliol on January 27, 2020, 05:24:56 pm
Also, nice seeing an official @kitfoxgames account here on the forum. Welcome!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 27, 2020, 05:27:07 pm
Post by: Pillbo on January 27, 2020, 07:42:23 pm
Assuming they actually say things, does what they say depend on what their knowledge/opinions are of each other? Is this different from when they are specifically Socializing?
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 27, 2020, 07:56:33 pm
When dwarves talking to each other is working what does that look like in the game? For example when walking past each other in a hall, is it sort of 'Unit1 greets Unit2', 'Unit2 insults Unit1' then they both continue on? Or is it more in depth like 'Unit1 mentions event/histfig/item to Unit2', 'Unit2 responds directly to mentioned thing', 'Unit1 says "it was inevitable"'?
Assuming they actually say things, does what they say depend on what their knowledge/opinions are of each other? Is this different from when they are specifically Socializing?
If you play adventure mode you could see it. Its very in depth, they even do small talk about the weather. (And yes all the same conversations happen in fort mode as in adventure mode, or rumors wouldn't spread the way they do)
Post by: clinodev on January 27, 2020, 08:13:27 pm
Will food spoilage make it to the game?
Many foods have spoiled and otherwise degraded without special stockpiles and attention to vermin for many years, did you have something more specific in mind?
clipped
Yeah, that should be fine! :) Preferably you'd give credits in the description for the soundtrack, but Youtube shouldn't ding you for it or anything, especially if it's DF-based.
Welcome kitfoxgames! (Hi Victoria!)
Post by: DG on January 28, 2020, 01:17:02 am
Will food spoilage make it to the game?
Yep.
Quote from: Flying TeasetsWill rock salt ever become an edible item?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933281#msg7933281
Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7933335#msg7933335
This has been on the table with, say, food preservation before, and recipes and all that. So there are few angles and we'll get there when that stuff comes back into view, whenever that might be.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937883#msg7937883 from 2016
Quote
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
Is food not rotting in stockpiles just a temporary feature? I've always thought that it was just a temporary placeholder until food preservation is expanded (with smoking and salting, for example), but I'm not so sure now because I didn't see anything in the dev notes.
We have some notes about food preservation, but it's not planned out. Would probably help the farm situation as much as anything.
Post by: George_Chickens on January 29, 2020, 08:12:20 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 29, 2020, 08:54:16 am
Is there a plan for adding in further integration of plots and intrigues to adventure mode? Can we expect more plot-related goodness before the Steam release?After Steam release according to the devlog.
Post by: iceball3 on January 29, 2020, 09:07:30 am
It would definitely be interesting if we were able to intercept a criminal network operating out of our fortress, and decide against dismantling them, instead directly negotiating terms with them and/or sponsoring certain operations if we deem their goals or needs useful.
Post by: ZM5 on January 29, 2020, 10:20:33 am
They also seem to poof out of existence when they walk too far away from the summoner, is there a way to prevent that?
Also, what arguments does IE_ITEM_QUALITY in the shrine effects interaction take besides ARTIFACT? Same question in regards to IE_ADD_WEATHER besides THICK_FOG.
Thanks for the update! I'd be a tad disappointed if there isnt a way to summon specific creatures yet, but the new healing tokens, item summoning, edged ranged interaction attacks and the propel abilities definitely open up a lot of exciting possibilities!
Post by: Inarius on January 29, 2020, 10:45:01 am
It's out !
Post by: LordBaal on January 29, 2020, 10:52:07 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 29, 2020, 02:02:24 pm
Instead of just deciding based on presence or absence of tags?
The below doesn't work: It doenst error out but it doesn't avoid spawning mammals.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If not (or even if so) what are the limitations? Can it use any token or just certain tokens, etc?
Post by: voliol on January 29, 2020, 03:38:48 pm
Post by: Teneb on January 29, 2020, 03:48:31 pm
What does "all creatures w/ spit + animal people variation get it" (line 24) in the new file changes file mean? Is it describing which creatures get the pet interaction?yeah
Post by: Pillbo on January 29, 2020, 03:56:19 pm
When dwarves talking to each other is working what does that look like in the game?If you play adventure mode you could see it. Its very in depth, they even do small talk about the weather. (And yes all the same conversations happen in fort mode as in adventure mode, or rumors wouldn't spread the way they do)
Those adv mode conversations were more or less the inspiration for the question. I guess another way of asking my question would be: is the way people talk in adventure mode the exact same way they talk in fort mode? Since I've not seen any way to record or observe that these conversations are happening in fort mode I didn't know if they happen the same way or in some a simplified/abstracted way. What are the future plans for how the player will be able to interact with or observe talking in fort mode?
Post by: therahedwig on January 29, 2020, 05:12:32 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 29, 2020, 05:23:19 pm
The reason they are the same is because tarn doesn't like having systems work differently in one mode or the other as that has in the past caused alot of problems (and still does, fire spreading etc. the difference between worldgen and actual play making "fast-forwarding" impossible etc) , so you can expect most new features to work the same in both modes as of a few versions ago.
Post by: Beag on January 29, 2020, 06:45:52 pm
2. Are there any special things our adventurers can do with the new array of possible starting items such as extracts and tools?
3. I played an escaped experiment and went to a necromancer tower, the necromancers and experiments were fine with me but the corrupted ones killed me, is this working as you intended?
4. Will you be releasing small patches for this update in the coming days as bug reports come in?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 29, 2020, 06:54:23 pm
1. Do any of the profession background skills our adventurer can now possess have any means of using them/training them?
2. Are there any special things our adventurers can do with the new array of possible starting items such as extracts and tools?
3. I played an escaped experiment and went to a necromancer tower, the necromancers and experiments were fine with me but the corrupted ones killed me, is this working as you intended?
4. Will you be releasing small patches for this update in the coming days as bug reports come in?
4. Definitely. Toady has confirmed that there will be a short period of bugfixing before he embarks on the Steam work.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 29, 2020, 07:09:28 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 01:32:52 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 30, 2020, 02:29:10 am
It seems to me that a large amount of the "lag" in heavily populated sites (eg human cities when next to a marketplace or highly populated tavern/whatever building) in vanilla dwarf fortress comes from the conversations happening that you dont actually see until they are close enough to hear. Have you ever considered reducing the amount of off screen conversation to speed up traversing these places?Are you sure it's specifically the conversations causing lag and not just the way it's trying to update the movement of several hundred off-screen people/horses/beak-dogs at once.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 30, 2020, 02:32:41 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 30, 2020, 03:46:16 am
Are you going to wait until Premium DF is done and released before getting back to any of the Villains features, or is it enough to set up the graphics framework to allow the artists to test and improve their work before looking at some of the postponed features?Given the amount of work that would be desirable for the Premium release, as well as how I interpret what Toady has said earlier, I'd expect the "only" parallel work to be bug fixes.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 30, 2020, 04:45:24 am
Yes, I interpreted it that way. Then read some statements again and thought too much about it. And now it's the end of the month, so....Are you going to wait until Premium DF is done and released before getting back to any of the Villains features, or is it enough to set up the graphics framework to allow the artists to test and improve their work before looking at some of the postponed features?Given the amount of work that would be desirable for the Premium release, as well as how I interpret what Toady has said earlier, I'd expect the "only" parallel work to be bug fixes.
Post by: pikachu17 on January 30, 2020, 08:17:44 am
When does a medium blessing happen?
Why can SUMMON_UNIT be limited by flags, but seemingly not by creature classes?
Can interactions change the weather to something other than HEAVY_FOG?
Is there any way for a modder to make the create item and upgrade item interactions work as a creature action?
What do SKILL_ROLL_RANGE, SKILL_IP, and ATTRIBUTE_IP do?
Also, has anyone put onto the bug tracker where if you make a creature have the HEALING_BLESSING interaction, when they heal someone, they won't appear healed on a 'l'ook or 'v'iew, but will be healed, and on the 'h'ealth screen will show the the various tissues healed but nothing about them? I have no real idea how to use the bug tracker.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 09:04:54 am
It seems to me that a large amount of the "lag" in heavily populated sites (eg human cities when next to a marketplace or highly populated tavern/whatever building) in vanilla dwarf fortress comes from the conversations happening that you dont actually see until they are close enough to hear. Have you ever considered reducing the amount of off screen conversation to speed up traversing these places?Are you sure it's specifically the conversations causing lag and not just the way it's trying to update the movement of several hundred off-screen people/horses/beak-dogs at once.
Im extremely sure it’s conversations.
Post by: iceball3 on January 30, 2020, 09:19:47 am
Did you test for sure?It seems to me that a large amount of the "lag" in heavily populated sites (eg human cities when next to a marketplace or highly populated tavern/whatever building) in vanilla dwarf fortress comes from the conversations happening that you dont actually see until they are close enough to hear. Have you ever considered reducing the amount of off screen conversation to speed up traversing these places?Are you sure it's specifically the conversations causing lag and not just the way it's trying to update the movement of several hundred off-screen people/horses/beak-dogs at once.
Im extremely sure it’s conversations.
My best guess for a test would be modding in a race that is not capable of speech that occupy large areas like that, and seeing how performance changes.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 09:33:19 am
Did you test for sure?It seems to me that a large amount of the "lag" in heavily populated sites (eg human cities when next to a marketplace or highly populated tavern/whatever building) in vanilla dwarf fortress comes from the conversations happening that you dont actually see until they are close enough to hear. Have you ever considered reducing the amount of off screen conversation to speed up traversing these places?Are you sure it's specifically the conversations causing lag and not just the way it's trying to update the movement of several hundred off-screen people/horses/beak-dogs at once.
Im extremely sure it’s conversations.
My best guess for a test would be modding in a race that is not capable of speech that occupy large areas like that, and seeing how performance changes.
Having a species that can’t talk make a civ doesn’t work all that well as far as I know so I haven’t tried that. But you can see it in the new version easily enough. Necromancer towers filled with experiments that can talk are much slower. And you can see the exclamation points slowly pop up everywhere and when they stop you can walk. But it’s not just those. Like I said it happens wherever isn’t offloaded even if it’s not on screen. And people really don’t walk much they mostly just stand there talking.
Post by: nogoodnames on January 30, 2020, 10:31:11 am
Did you test for sure?It seems to me that a large amount of the "lag" in heavily populated sites (eg human cities when next to a marketplace or highly populated tavern/whatever building) in vanilla dwarf fortress comes from the conversations happening that you dont actually see until they are close enough to hear. Have you ever considered reducing the amount of off screen conversation to speed up traversing these places?Are you sure it's specifically the conversations causing lag and not just the way it's trying to update the movement of several hundred off-screen people/horses/beak-dogs at once.
Im extremely sure it’s conversations.
My best guess for a test would be modding in a race that is not capable of speech that occupy large areas like that, and seeing how performance changes.
Having a species that can’t talk make a civ doesn’t work all that well as far as I know so I haven’t tried that. But you can see it in the new version easily enough. Necromancer towers filled with experiments that can talk are much slower. And you can see the exclamation points slowly pop up everywhere and when they stop you can walk. But it’s not just those. Like I said it happens wherever isn’t offloaded even if it’s not on screen. And people really don’t walk much they mostly just stand there talking.
Just tested this now. Spawned an adventurer in a large city and walked around, then saved and changed the raws to stop everyone from speaking. Disabling speech actually cut the FPS in half. While they were speaking I was getting 25-35 FPS but when they were mute it was 12-15. I suspect it's because, like you said, they're normally talking instead of moving around. Without any conversations going on, all they have to do is try to path everywhere.
As for the towers, it's probably just that there are more units loaded in. Or maybe the intelligent undead try to move around more often.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 10:36:38 am
Did you test for sure?It seems to me that a large amount of the "lag" in heavily populated sites (eg human cities when next to a marketplace or highly populated tavern/whatever building) in vanilla dwarf fortress comes from the conversations happening that you dont actually see until they are close enough to hear. Have you ever considered reducing the amount of off screen conversation to speed up traversing these places?Are you sure it's specifically the conversations causing lag and not just the way it's trying to update the movement of several hundred off-screen people/horses/beak-dogs at once.
Im extremely sure it’s conversations.
My best guess for a test would be modding in a race that is not capable of speech that occupy large areas like that, and seeing how performance changes.
Having a species that can’t talk make a civ doesn’t work all that well as far as I know so I haven’t tried that. But you can see it in the new version easily enough. Necromancer towers filled with experiments that can talk are much slower. And you can see the exclamation points slowly pop up everywhere and when they stop you can walk. But it’s not just those. Like I said it happens wherever isn’t offloaded even if it’s not on screen. And people really don’t walk much they mostly just stand there talking.
Just tested this now. Spawned an adventurer in a large city and walked around, then saved and changed the raws to stop everyone from speaking. Disabling speech actually cut the FPS in half. While they were speaking I was getting 25-35 FPS but when they were mute it was 12-15. I suspect it's because, like you said, they're normally talking instead of moving around. Without any conversations going on, all they have to do is try to path everywhere.
As for the towers, it's probably just that there are more units loaded in. Or maybe the intelligent undead try to move around more often.
Ill have to test this myself. I have a hard time believing that disabling an action they do all the time would lower fps. Unless theres something else going on. Them moving when not talking and only doing one or the other seems like a strange thing that should probably be a bug. What if you disable it while outside the city then enter the city. It could be causing issues to suddenly disable it while in a city.
Post by: nogoodnames on January 30, 2020, 10:58:05 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 30, 2020, 11:06:57 am
Maybe we could take this over to a scientific thread on DF general to save a derail, but are you sure you're not mistaking conversations versus noise (of the sort that can wake dwarves sleeping close to heavily populated rooms with horns, drums singing and dancing) itself?
Post by: Beag on January 30, 2020, 11:47:47 am
Post by: ZM5 on January 30, 2020, 11:49:43 am
Also they wouldnt attack you now unless you're in the correct evil biome - they've been relegated to them instead (only 10% of evil biomes I think have bogeys).
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 11:56:18 am
Bogeymen dont attack anything with [NOFEAR].
Also they wouldnt attack you now unless you're in the correct evil biome - they've been relegated to them instead (only 10% of evil biomes I think have bogeys).
Or evil regions spreading out from a demon with the darkness/nightmare spheres. The contents of evil biomes are now also determined by spheres of their creators.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 01:56:01 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 30, 2020, 03:18:27 pm
Post by: Seagoon on January 30, 2020, 03:46:25 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 03:51:22 pm
Just curious: why are failed experiments represented by the letter "H" in-game as opposed to the "Ñ/ñ" tile used for other night creatures?
That color of Ñ is planned to be used by another type of night creature. https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Night_creature
They are planned for weird sutured together things like frankenstein.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 30, 2020, 04:01:54 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 04:28:29 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 30, 2020, 04:42:02 pm
I noticed you have been doing different updates on steam versus on your own devlog lately? (eg today(1/30/2020) you talked about the new bugs on steam but didn't do a dev log on your website about it and you have done this a couple times now) Any plans to change it so you post the same thing in both or will i have to continue checking both from now on to get all the latest dev news?I would much rather Toady posts the latest information whenever he posts something. Not mentioning things that he's done just because he hadn't done them when he posted somewhere several days ago just seems counterproductive. It's a single click away. Not to mention that everything he's saying over there is known by everyone over here.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 05:57:11 pm
I noticed you have been doing different updates on steam versus on your own devlog lately? (eg today(1/30/2020) you talked about the new bugs on steam but didn't do a dev log on your website about it and you have done this a couple times now) Any plans to change it so you post the same thing in both or will i have to continue checking both from now on to get all the latest dev news?I would much rather Toady posts the latest information whenever he posts something. Not mentioning things that he's done just because he hadn't done them when he posted somewhere several days ago just seems counterproductive. It's a single click away. Not to mention that everything he's saying over there is known by everyone over here.
Not sure you understand what im saying, he does dev logs on steam and on his website, sometimes he only does them on steam or on the website. It would be nice if he just posted in both places when he does one of those devlogs. Its not necessary and he can do whatever he wants, i'm just curious if hes gonna standardize it or not. I for one, post devlogs for my own games in all places they need to be posted (patreon, my discord etc), so i'm curious if hes gonna do something like that, it would be nice because sometimes people miss it when he posts it in only one place (in the case of steam i have missed a couple of devlogs)
Post by: clinodev on January 30, 2020, 06:03:56 pm
The best I can offer you though is that I do have a thread here on the forum where I post the Steam updates soon after they are uploaded, which you can subscribe to, and of course I always link them on the subreddit.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg7983341#msg7983341
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 30, 2020, 06:09:06 pm
I'm sympathetic to your question myself. It's far from the first time the Steam update has gotten unique info, however trivial.
The best I can offer you though is that I do have a thread here on the forum where I post the Steam updates soon after they are uploaded, which you can subscribe to, and of course I always link them on the subreddit.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg7983341#msg7983341
I appreciate that by the way! I found that thread a couple days ago. Its just a bit odd that this is how things work right now. It would be even better if he also posted it on patreon in addition to doing the same on steam and on his devlog, i have supported bay12 on there for a long time. Then everything would be nice and equal and no one would feel left out just because they, for example find steam's forums toxic.
Post by: Max™ on January 30, 2020, 06:29:55 pm
Post by: zakarum on January 30, 2020, 06:35:22 pm
Can dwarves change/adopt religion? Do sermons make dwarves more inclined to a different religion? Can dwarves lose faith in a god?
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 30, 2020, 07:05:53 pm
This was probably answered before so if anyone has a previous answer by Toady I'd be more than happy to hear it.At least world gen allows for new religions to spring up and recruit followers, which implies those characters can at least adopt religions, and megabeasts have attracted worshipers for a long time.
Can dwarves change/adopt religion? Do sermons make dwarves more inclined to a different religion? Can dwarves lose faith in a god?
A post by Toady the other day said you could hold sermons as an adventurer, but that it was rather pointless (which implies that part doesn't do anything useful).
I've gotten the impression religion isn't that powerful in fortress mode yet (lack of time, as usual), but obviously, Toady is the one who knows what the state is.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 30, 2020, 09:02:27 pm
I'm amused by the way that some of the demon lords of hell have, after being unleashed and executing everyone in sight, adopted Dwarven religions.This was probably answered before so if anyone has a previous answer by Toady I'd be more than happy to hear it.At least world gen allows for new religions to spring up and recruit followers, which implies those characters can at least adopt religions, and megabeasts have attracted worshipers for a long time.
Can dwarves change/adopt religion? Do sermons make dwarves more inclined to a different religion? Can dwarves lose faith in a god?
Worldgen relationships question:
Lovers get married, but do childhood friends ever later become lovers? That seems like it should be a thing on occasion.
Post by: Beag on January 31, 2020, 12:04:53 am
Post by: Bumber on January 31, 2020, 01:38:31 am
Probably the last question from me for this month- When I was playing an escaped necromancer experiment I traveled around for a few days and didn't get hungry thirsty or tired, do escaped necromancer experiments not need to eat, drink or sleep?
Well, necromancers don't, so I would assume the same thing applies.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2020, 02:53:35 am
Necromancers have mastered the secrets of life and death and are now immortal, crazy, book writing, lich type things.Probably the last question from me for this month- When I was playing an escaped necromancer experiment I traveled around for a few days and didn't get hungry thirsty or tired, do escaped necromancer experiments not need to eat, drink or sleep?
Well, necromancers don't, so I would assume the same thing applies.
Failed experiments are poor folk who got turned into ugly beasts. Why would one equal the other?
Post by: voliol on January 31, 2020, 03:00:18 am
This was probably answered before so if anyone has a previous answer by Toady I'd be more than happy to hear it.At least world gen allows for new religions to spring up and recruit followers, which implies those characters can at least adopt religions, and megabeasts have attracted worshipers for a long time.
Can dwarves change/adopt religion? Do sermons make dwarves more inclined to a different religion? Can dwarves lose faith in a god?
A post by Toady the other day said you could hold sermons as an adventurer, but that it was rather pointless (which implies that part doesn't do anything useful).
I've gotten the impression religion isn't that powerful in fortress mode yet (lack of time, as usual), but obviously, Toady is the one who knows what the state is.
Preaching doesn't seem to do much, no, except for attracting criticism (both positive and negative) from the audience.
If you ask them about the event afterwards they can say "it was according to my faith" if they are a fellow believer. Otherwise they mostly say "it was boring", even if they seemingly enjoyed your sermon while you were doing it, claiming "This preacher is good/promising/great.".
After greeting a person who (recently?) listened to you preach they end their greeting you with "Do you have wisdom to share, preacher?".
Post by: Atomic Chicken on January 31, 2020, 03:24:32 am
Post by: clinodev on January 31, 2020, 06:24:03 am
I do have two common questions:
Are altars and dice meant to be adventure only, or for both modes? In fortress mode they can be bought at embark, made in the craftdwarf's workshop, and found in reclaimed worldgen forts, but altars at least cannot be built in fortress mode.
Are dwarf necromancers intended to openly arrive as regular migrants in fort mode? I've watched two very funny streams with multiple necromancer migrants, but they didn't end well.
Post by: voliol on January 31, 2020, 07:07:01 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2020, 07:16:52 am
What are the requirements for a non-player fortress/civ breaching the underworld? It has been observed to happen multiple times in the same fortress (link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175434.msg8082964#msg8082964)), but could this happen to the previously emerged demon civ, without any intermediate take-over?I'm looking at a world with 20 Circus breache (some at the same site). Two of those were caused by goblin civs (goblin civs that were both created by Dwarf circus breaches). They're different civs so kill each other and take over as you'd expect.
Post by: Bumber on January 31, 2020, 10:31:08 am
Necromancers have mastered the secrets of life and death and are now immortal, crazy, book writing, lich type things.Probably the last question from me for this month- When I was playing an escaped necromancer experiment I traveled around for a few days and didn't get hungry thirsty or tired, do escaped necromancer experiments not need to eat, drink or sleep?
Well, necromancers don't, so I would assume the same thing applies.
Failed experiments are poor folk who got turned into ugly beasts. Why would one equal the other?
Because they're made by necromancers?
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 31, 2020, 10:31:44 am
How free-willed are the current intelligent undead? (I remember a long time ago you said one of the big essential things about them is that they could, in fact run off and start a farm, or bandit group etc)
Will we ever see any night creatures akin to a Ring Wraith? Eg a night creature or monstrous magical thing associated with certain artifacts who hunt the current user of it.
Why do the new ghouls and intelligent undead have [SYN_CONCENTRATION_ADDED:1000:0]
What does the [EXPERIMENT_ONLY]interaction token which always appears alongside [I_SOURCE:EXPERIMENT] do? You would think [I_SOURCE:EXPERIMENT] would be all thats needed here. So [EXPERIMENT_ONLY] must do something special.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 31, 2020, 10:33:28 am
Necromancers have mastered the secrets of life and death and are now immortal, crazy, book writing, lich type things.Probably the last question from me for this month- When I was playing an escaped necromancer experiment I traveled around for a few days and didn't get hungry thirsty or tired, do escaped necromancer experiments not need to eat, drink or sleep?
Well, necromancers don't, so I would assume the same thing applies.
Failed experiments are poor folk who got turned into ugly beasts. Why would one equal the other?
Because they're made by necromancers?
I don't think that's really how logic works. If a necromancer wanted and toady had implemented it a necromancer could totally create something that isnt undead even though it wouldnt be very thematic since they are associated with dead things. But its doable in any case. Theres no specific limitation there. Someone would have to confirm that no_sleep and no_eat etc. are tokens on these things, but it seems like it makes sense, experiments are technically undead right do they not have the NOT_LIVING tag? But they could in fact still have to eat and such toady would def have to answer that or someone would need to do some raw checking.
For example , they could totally be able to die of old age, we wouldn't know until we look at the raws. Being made by a certain night creature does not automagically give you the tokens of that night creature. Its easy to add interactions that dont do anything like that.
Post by: Pillbo on January 31, 2020, 11:45:12 am
You can enable conversations to show up in the announcements via the announcement.txt file, they're virtually the same as the adventure mode convos. (With the exception that dorfs can actually make friends this way, and I am not sure if adv. npcs actually make friends if you leave them alone long enough. They didn't in .44 at the least.)
Oh cool, I never knew you could do that, thanks for the info.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 31, 2020, 12:35:33 pm
Necromancers have mastered the secrets of life and death and are now immortal, crazy, book writing, lich type things.Probably the last question from me for this month- When I was playing an escaped necromancer experiment I traveled around for a few days and didn't get hungry thirsty or tired, do escaped necromancer experiments not need to eat, drink or sleep?
Well, necromancers don't, so I would assume the same thing applies.
Failed experiments are poor folk who got turned into ugly beasts. Why would one equal the other?
Because they're made by necromancers?
I don't think that's really how logic works. If a necromancer wanted and toady had implemented it a necromancer could totally create something that isnt undead even though it wouldnt be very thematic since they are associated with dead things. But its doable in any case. Theres no specific limitation there. Someone would have to confirm that no_sleep and no_eat etc. are tokens on these things, but it seems like it makes sense, experiments are technically undead right do they not have the NOT_LIVING tag? But they could in fact still have to eat and such toady would def have to answer that or someone would need to do some raw checking.
For example , they could totally be able to die of old age, we wouldn't know until we look at the raws. Being made by a certain night creature does not automagically give you the tokens of that night creature. Its easy to add interactions that dont do anything like that.
Even if it's not a logical requirement that things made by necromancers don't have the needs of living organisms, it still makes sense that it would be one of the first things a necromancer would remove assuming they have the ability IMO. After all, what's more efficient than a servant that never needs to eat, drink, or sleep?
At the same time though, it probably doesn't make sense that every last one of them would have this trait if they are indeed failed experiments.
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 31, 2020, 12:59:41 pm
Necromancers have mastered the secrets of life and death and are now immortal, crazy, book writing, lich type things.Probably the last question from me for this month- When I was playing an escaped necromancer experiment I traveled around for a few days and didn't get hungry thirsty or tired, do escaped necromancer experiments not need to eat, drink or sleep?
Well, necromancers don't, so I would assume the same thing applies.
Failed experiments are poor folk who got turned into ugly beasts. Why would one equal the other?
Because they're made by necromancers?
I don't think that's really how logic works. If a necromancer wanted and toady had implemented it a necromancer could totally create something that isnt undead even though it wouldnt be very thematic since they are associated with dead things. But its doable in any case. Theres no specific limitation there. Someone would have to confirm that no_sleep and no_eat etc. are tokens on these things, but it seems like it makes sense, experiments are technically undead right do they not have the NOT_LIVING tag? But they could in fact still have to eat and such toady would def have to answer that or someone would need to do some raw checking.
For example , they could totally be able to die of old age, we wouldn't know until we look at the raws. Being made by a certain night creature does not automagically give you the tokens of that night creature. Its easy to add interactions that dont do anything like that.
Even if it's not a logical requirement that things made by necromancers don't have the needs of living organisms, it still makes sense that it would be one of the first things a necromancer would remove assuming they have the ability IMO. After all, what's more efficient than a servant that never needs to eat, drink, or sleep?
At the same time though, it probably doesn't make sense that every last one of them would have this trait if they are indeed failed experiments.
Someone just posted some extracted raws on the modding forum,
looks liek expermiments do have [NO_DRINK] [NO_EAT] but do not have [NOT_LIVING], they also do not have [NO_AGING] and lack a maxage so they dont die of old age.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175437.75
Post by: FAA on January 31, 2020, 02:02:19 pm
Post by: therahedwig on January 31, 2020, 02:32:25 pm
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 31, 2020, 02:37:43 pm
I am not sure if dwarven hillocks always have tavern keepers. You need to make sure to find a drinking mound, at the least. And proper taverns with sleeping places and such are typically only in the big sites (towns/big forest retreats/mountain fortresses/dark forts).
They definitely didnt have tavern keepers in the previous version and drinking mounds didnt even have alcohol.
Post by: Beag on January 31, 2020, 06:15:26 pm
Post by: Rubik on January 31, 2020, 06:16:23 pm
The new necromancers are capable of corrupting an entire pocket-sized world so it should be possible
Post by: FAA on January 31, 2020, 06:20:40 pm
I am not sure if dwarven hillocks always have tavern keepers. You need to make sure to find a drinking mound, at the least. And proper taverns with sleeping places and such are typically only in the big sites (towns/big forest retreats/mountain fortresses/dark forts).
They definitely didnt have tavern keepers in the previous version and drinking mounds didnt even have alcohol.
I’m always attempting to play the adventure mode with each new release and I’m always utterly confused and eventually turned off completely. Truly hope that buildings will soon stop being empty husks with no furniture and become a living, plausible environment. The shallowness of sites is in such a terrible contrast with the absolutely great world gen, and unfortunately much more visible to the player. :/
Post by: Beag on January 31, 2020, 06:49:51 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 31, 2020, 07:10:16 pm
I am not sure if dwarven hillocks always have tavern keepers. You need to make sure to find a drinking mound, at the least. And proper taverns with sleeping places and such are typically only in the big sites (towns/big forest retreats/mountain fortresses/dark forts).
They definitely didnt have tavern keepers in the previous version and drinking mounds didnt even have alcohol.
I’m always attempting to play the adventure mode with each new release and I’m always utterly confused and eventually turned off completely. Truly hope that buildings will soon stop being empty husks with no furniture and become a living, plausible environment. The shallowness of sites is in such a terrible contrast with the absolutely great world gen, and unfortunately much more visible to the player. :/
Some buildings do have furniture (particularly in human towns), but it's still not arranged in a terribly realistic or aesthetically-pleasing manner. It sucks, I agree, but unfortunately the situation is a bit complicated at the moment. In game development terms there's a rather fine balance to strike between functionality and aesthetics, and Toady generally prefers to lean towards the former. He does acknowledge that the architecture is currently a bit lacklustre though and plans on getting around to a rewrite at some point (perhaps around the time he does maps?)
Post by: janxious on January 31, 2020, 10:25:59 pm
Given you've very recently changed the screen for temples, can you please add two pieces of information to it? Specifically:
- What are the god's spheres?
- How many worshippers of the god are in the fort?
Post by: JesterHell696 on January 31, 2020, 10:54:06 pm
Given that you're going to be selling DF Premium commercially on Steam and have a professional publisher I feel the need to ask, have you or Kitfox given any thought to how you will implement adventure mode romance, relationships and reproduction?
I'm asking this because one of the things I've seen either added in the based game of damn near every RPG or game with RPG-ish elements is the romance options/companions, Mass effect, Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, The Elder Scrolls, Fable, Stardew Valley, Divinity: Original Sin, Crusader Kings 2, The Guild, The Sims 1-4 etc.
I just can't help but feel that there is going to be a clamouring for that option once DF goes mainSteam.
For the record my vote is for the Sims style "Woohoo" but only because I know the very real risks with anything more.... detailed...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 31, 2020, 11:40:21 pm
Loving the new release and looking forward to the Steam release.Probably in exactly the same way as Fortress Mode (as far as the sex part goes anyway). That is, invisibly. Easily managed while passing time while in the company of a spouse/lover in Adventurer or while retired.
Given that you're going to be selling DF Premium commercially on Steam and have a professional publisher I feel the need to ask, have you or Kitfox given any thought to how you will implement adventure mode romance, relationships and reproduction?
I'm asking this because one of the things I've seen either added in the based game of damn near every RPG or game with RPG-ish elements is the romance options/companions, Mass effect, Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, The Elder Scrolls, Fable, Stardew Valley, Divinity: Original Sin, Crusader Kings 2, The Guild, The Sims 1-4 etc.
I just can't help but feel that there is going to be a clamouring for that option once DF goes mainSteam.
For the record my vote is for the Sims style "Woohoo" but only because I know the very real risks with anything more.... detailed...
As for actual romance and such, Toady has threatened bad poetry recitals and there are pages of suggestions over in the suggestions forum on procgen cultural courting rituals.
While it's in the dev notes, it's all so far in the future that it's not likely to have been considered in such great detail yet.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 31, 2020, 11:43:42 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 01, 2020, 01:25:45 am
And will experiments get variations (skin, hair colour, eyes, etc). It's kind of sad to see their completely blank "Appearance" tab. Even gorlaks get a brief eye/skin description there.
Post by: Toady One on February 01, 2020, 04:06:03 am
Quote from: Witty
You mentioned on Dwarf Fortress Roundtable podcast that you and Zach had a multi-day Transport Tycoon session. Could you elaborate a bit on that? I'm curious as to how you got that started and what the ultimate end result was.
As I recall, it took some 36 hours just to advance from the early 1900s or whenever it started, to 2020 or 2050 or whenever it is set to end, at least if you are messing around in menus or whatever when dead tired. We got hooked on it pretty bad, just upgrading our buses and etc., nothing special. But school was on, and we had interleaved schedules pretty much, so at the apartment where we were living at the time, we could always have someone running the game, and it turned into a very long stretch without sleep. We just played through to the end, and I don't recall anything particularly special about the outcome or anything... we aren't very good at games.
Quote from: darkhog
With the graphics mode for the steam version, will you make changing tilesets easier so you won't have to basically update all the save games as well so they use correct tiles?
Also, more importantly, what are some optimizations you can do in game's coding so FPS death, if not becoming a thing of the past, can be way less common? Note that I mean performance issues during game play, not anything related to world/history generation (for that I'm a patient person and can let it generate over night).
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8072770#msg8072770
I don't have anything to add to PatrikLundell's post, other than to say that we'll need to rework how mods are bundled in general, along with the graphics.
Quote from: Silverwing235
Not originally by me, just found those lying around and thought you could shed some light. That being so:
1. Do abstract entity populations have any impact on historical figure genetic profiles, or is it limited to the historical figures?
2. Do genes besides colour have dominance or recessiveness?
3. Are personality goals limited to one per creature?
(...Yeah, not entirely relevant, I know. But a lone copyeditor like myself just occasionally runs into something they can't quite seem to verify or fact-check on their own, really.)
1. Yeah, there are subpopulations with additional data, which is the reason e.g. eyes and skin are sometimes locked into a subset in certain areas.
2. It's very uninteresting as I recall. The least interesting it could be.
3. Not technically, but effectively I think it only ever chooses one. That whole system needs to be changed into something more satisfying than just a single top-level dream, I think, though I should probably hold off on that, ha ha ha.
Quote from: Luckyowl
not sure if anyone asked this, but is there a way you can make the rate, and reload time on range weapons a token so we can edit and customize different type of weapons?
It's a combat addition and we'd always been hoping to do a large push on that. It hasn't happened, and it has been a long time. I'm not sure when it'll come up. Next possibility is with the army stuff after Steam/itch.
Quote from: therahedwig
Are werebeasts also among the teleporting (mega)beasts, or do they actually path the world like visitors do?
Yeah, they work like megabeasts, without an army, at least on the way in. They may have to find their way back to their cave/wherever on foot. I'm not sure how this'll work with them in the future in particular - I doubt they'd last the journey transformed since it usually takes a few days. They should probably be rethought generally, though having them come as regular migrants when not transformed is quite cruel.
Quote from: Pillbo
As far as the graphical release is concerned, you've mentioned that initially there will be no Mac version. Does that mean the Mac version will be put on semi-permanent hold, or will there be an effort to hit the three OS versions in some subsequent release pre-Big Wait?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8073665#msg8073665
Pillbo (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8073670#msg8073670
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8075089#msg8075089
In terms of the Steam release, yeah, I do not personally have the experience to sell a Mac or Linux product. If I can't easily get the build working, and I can't marshal the expertise in whatever way, then it won't come to those platforms, whether that's eventually paying somebody to help or however it'll work. I can't afford it now and don't feel comfortable asking for volunteers in this context, and I doubt my ability to put together a 'properly bundled' OSX app that works on whatever version is the latest and to keep it working through future deprecations. Additionally, I haven't been closely following where the current notarization issues are at, and that might be prohibitive as a separate matter, depending on exactly what's going on. I know some of my peers decided to leave the platform, but their situation might be different. Others have struggled through it. I'm all for getting it worked out, but it'd need to be a solution that sticks and which I can maintain more reliably.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Given the way that adventuring can reveal map features to your dwarves by expanding non-settlement knowledge of the world for the fortress mode world map, can we extract information about places from interrogated prisoners or is it restricted to related rumors only leading you to unmarked areas and tidbits of info about persons?
The kind of clauses we already have about invisible caves being un-raidable without a rumor leading players there apply for instance (without having the config off and seeing caves all the time), and the existing state of slabs and their guardians having loose oddly broadly known map co-ordinates.
Interrogation doesn't do anything like that currently. It should do more.
Quote from: Schmaven
Since Steam isn't too keen on version numbers that start with a zero, do you think they'd accept just moving the first decimal point 2 digits to the right but otherwise keep the same version system? So version 0.44.12 would become 44.12 etc. I know eventually Dwarf Fortress will drift away from the list of features that helps determine this number, but it's really cool to have some rough percentage of included features so prominently visible like it has been.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8076243#msg8076243
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8076246#msg8076246
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8076400#msg8076400
Yeah, that sounds pretty good. It would be a silly thing to complain about, if it comes up, given the scope we're dealing with, but if nobody ends up having a problem with the shift that works for me.
Quote from: VineFynn
"(Undead lieutenants) are under the control of the necromancer, but can retain much of their old identity."
What does this translate into gameplay-wise? Can a sufficiently good/strong identity break free from a sufficiently weak necromancer?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8077287#msg8077287
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8077310#msg8077310
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8077433#msg8077433
VineFynn(op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8077569#msg8077569
Quote from: Criperum
Are friendship and grudges depend on personal traits or they are totally random? Like dwarves with opposing personal values are more possible to become rivals than those who have similar.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078037#msg8078037
Yeah, there are some checks, especially as the relationships become romantic or turn to marriage. It also uses trait changes as a factor in divorces... which might put rain as a cause of divorces until any necessary things are smoothed about.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Probably already been asked/answered but when you return to it later, do you intend to add angry mobs to go after corrupt officials? Will we then be able to tell people about the corruption and incite them to do something about it?
Most random npc residents dont even care about invaders conquering their site enough to participate in an insurrection now, in adventure mode at least. How if at all has that changed?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078261#msg8078261
VineFynn: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078451#msg8078451
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078452#msg8078452
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078474#msg8078474
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078540#msg8078540
Yeah, the adv mode insurrection mechanic has been heavily undernourished, and nothing has changed currently. Investigations were going to involve some sort of interaction with non-corrupt officials, if only to provide some muscle to help you out, but it would also make sense to tie in insurrection stuff, especially in cases when there are few non-corrupt people left. I will note to keep the poor ignored insurrections in mind.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, in the world outside the fortress, religious leaders are causing strife, riots, vandalism and all sorts of bad stuff. But in-fortress listening to a sermon you disagree with is a "mild inconvenience". It's a bit contradictory. I assume this is a temporary compromise until stress is working well enough to add more bad stuff and in-fortress strife?
Or just temporary because we ran out of time, yeah. Guilds and religions aren't supposed to be all good, beyond the issue of having to build a room for them.
Quote from: Criperum
Not sure if it was asked before but what will be the copyrights for game soundtracks? I'm asking because when the game is on Steam I'll start making a series of tutorials as i did before and i used DF soundtrack as background music for it. Will i be able to do it or youtube can potentially ban me for it?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8079950#msg8079950
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8079951#msg8079951
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8080016#msg8080016
kitfoxgames: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8081029#msg8081029
Yeah, I don't think they do auto-takedowns on this score, though I defer to Kitfox on any particulars when it comes to the new soundtrack.
Quote
Quote from: FAADoes the economy update for the next version mean that items in the game world will finally be made of metals that make sense? As in, mostly of iron/steel and not platinum or gold all the time?
EDIT: Why won’t DF use mapgen system similar to the one in Cataclysm: DDA? It’s very simple and results in hundreds of structure types, each much more believable than anything DF offers atm.Quote from: EkatonThe question, I suppose is: can something like that be done in DF, within the constrains of its engine? The way it works in CDDA is wonderful and insanely easy and fast to code. If the simplicity can be replicated, it could make development faster and smoother.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8080409#msg8080409
FAA (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8080506#msg8080506
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8080511#msg8080511
etc.
As Shonai_Dweller mentioned, there wasn't an economy update outside of some villain/building ownership tweaks.
I have no idea what system we're going to end up using. Certainly with the map rewrite and the possibility of map editors, something is going to be different and it's going to have to be editable in some way that doesn't involve C code, but we also have a ton of interlinked constraints from the overlying map/site/civ/histfig data, even to reproduce such maps as we have now, and that'll lead to some genuine complications. I'm still at the stage of listing all of what I need to support (keeping in mind the magic/etc. stuff also has to work.)
Quote from: FAA
Will food spoilage make it to the game?
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8081370#msg8081370
Quote from: Pillbo
When dwarves talking to each other is working what does that look like in the game? For example when walking past each other in a hall, is it sort of 'Unit1 greets Unit2', 'Unit2 insults Unit1' then they both continue on? Or is it more in depth like 'Unit1 mentions event/histfig/item to Unit2', 'Unit2 responds directly to mentioned thing', 'Unit1 says "it was inevitable"'?
Assuming they actually say things, does what they say depend on what their knowledge/opinions are of each other? Is this different from when they are specifically Socializing?
...
is the way people talk in adventure mode the exact same way they talk in fort mode? Since I've not seen any way to record or observe that these conversations are happening in fort mode I didn't know if they happen the same way or in some a simplified/abstracted way. What are the future plans for how the player will be able to interact with or observe talking in fort mode?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8081272#msg8081272
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8081276#msg8081276
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082302#msg8082302
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082310#msg8082310
Mostly, it isn't (or at least, shouldn't be, would be interested to see what therahedwig's dwarves got up to, if it involved events and places.) The adv mode conversation stuff is too resource intensive - especially when they need to pull a fact about the world, or say some random historical event about some historical figure. It's not easy to pull that data quickly in some cases, especially in the context of dozens of dwarves running around in real time. But the stuff you see in combat logs etc. is all using the same code. I'm not sure we'll ever be able to get at the full adv mode conversations (as those improve), it's just too much data being pushed around. But there might be some chances outside of combat where the system can work, especially if you are observing a debate or something (or controlling one of the participants, as in the current trade/diplo stuff.) If fort and adv diplomacy eventually converged on using the same conversation system, for example, that would be good, even if it is in a paused mode in the fort.
Quote from: George_Chickens
Is there a plan for adding in further integration of plots and intrigues to adventure mode? Can we expect more plot-related goodness before the Steam release?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082002#msg8082002
Yeah, the whole feature delay log ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2020-01-01 ) means after Steam, but before we go off and do the map rewrite/myth/magic stuff.
Quote from: iceball3
Will villain/plotting networks eventually seek non-adversarial means of acquiring certain goals? For example, providing certain services to acquire assets, working together with ideological or political allies to accomplish a mutually desired goal, or exchanging proprietary information or craft knowledge as a service?
It would definitely be interesting if we were able to intercept a criminal network operating out of our fortress, and decide against dismantling them, instead directly negotiating terms with them and/or sponsoring certain operations if we deem their goals or needs useful.
Yeah, part of the idea here was just to set up means for individuals to do things through intermediaries, for any reason. Hopefully it'll spread out into other parts of the game, whether it even resembles a 'plot' when it gets there. Similarly, we made a lot of use of 'agreements' here, which started as trade stuff and then turned into the basis for adventuring companions and guides, and then villains. Things have a way of percolating around. (For all I know, a retired adventurer will 'confess' to being a companion under interrogation, though possibly I put a check in for that.)
Quote
Quote from: ZM5In regards to the new summoning interaction, is there a token for summoning a specific creature (or creatures with a specific creature class) or is it only random and token-based for now? Similarly for the summoning area - Teneb noticed that with the random location parameter the summoned creatures tend to fall from the sky and occasionally take damage as a result.
They also seem to poof out of existence when they walk too far away from the summoner, is there a way to prevent that?
Also, what arguments does IE_ITEM_QUALITY in the shrine effects interaction take besides ARTIFACT? Same question in regards to IE_ADD_WEATHER besides THICK_FOG.
Thanks for the update! I'd be a tad disappointed if there isnt a way to summon specific creatures yet, but the new healing tokens, item summoning, edged ranged interaction attacks and the propel abilities definitely open up a lot of exciting possibilities!Quote from: UntrustedlifeAnyway to add summon interactions for specific creatures? IE by defining a new CREATURE_CLASS ?
Instead of just deciding based on presence or absence of tags?
The below doesn't work: It doenst error out but it doesn't avoid spawning mammals.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If not (or even if so) what are the limitations? Can it use any token or just certain tokens, etc?Quote from: pikachu17Why did you not list in the file changes txt file the new tokens in the interaction examples folder? You didn't list the unhardcodeening of DEMON, UNIQUE_DEMON, or FEATURE_BEAST either.
When does a medium blessing happen?
Why can SUMMON_UNIT be limited by flags, but seemingly not by creature classes?
Can interactions change the weather to something other than HEAVY_FOG?
Is there any way for a modder to make the create item and upgrade item interactions work as a creature action?
What do SKILL_ROLL_RANGE, SKILL_IP, and ATTRIBUTE_IP do?
Also, has anyone put onto the bug tracker where if you make a creature have the HEALING_BLESSING interaction, when they heal someone, they won't appear healed on a 'l'ook or 'v'iew, but will be healed, and on the 'h'ealth screen will show the the various tissues healed but nothing about them? I have no real idea how to use the bug tracker.
For summons, for specific creatures, according to this code you should be able to send in "[CREATURE:<creature token>:<caste token>]". Using "ALL" or "ANY" or "DEFAULT" for the caste token lets all of the castes in. But you can't currently use this tag more than once per effect. So you can do something at least, though it can be improved. And there is not class support currently. The flags usually refer to the creature/caste tokens that don't have arguments, and it supports about 180 of those for castes, which should be most of them, but doesn't include anything complicated that involves a number or string (like a class.)
If you don't set IE_TIME_RANGE, do they not disappear? The default is that they don't have a summon time. That doesn't make them historical though, so they will likely disappear if offloaded. Using the pet tag IE_MAKE_PET_IF_POSSIBLE may make them historical and more permanent (if no time range is set.)
For the summoning, if the distance is set (e.g. 5 in the example), it does a flood out from the summoner. Could the summoner fly? That might explain why they were in the air.
IE_ITEM_QUALITY can take a number from 0 to 5, aside from ARTIFACT. There is a bug because you should also be able to send in a range like 2:3 and can't, but that should be fixed for next time.
Weather: Can use IE_ADD_WEATHER, IE_REMOVE_WEATHER. Tags are FRONT_WARM, FRONT_COLD, FRONT_OCCLUDED, CUMULUS_MED, CUMULUS_MULTI, CUMULUS_NIMBUS, CIRRUS, STRATUS_ALTO, STRATUS_PROPER, STRATUS_NIMBUS, FOG_MIST, FOG_NORMAL and FOG_THICK. It doesn't control temperature so it can't be used to choose between rain and snow, which of course would be more reasonable - but regional temperature is trickier to change.
Missing file notes: Oversight. Also forgot the new init.txt stuff. Happens every major release, pretty much, and for stuff like unhardcodeening, there's just no easy way to check for it if I don't write it down when I do it, which is not always easy to remember in the moment. The init thing I should have caught, but I wasn't thinking of 'init.txt' as a 'file' at the time, which is silly.
Medium blessings happen on some set of the faces, as with the rest, but these bigger blessings and curses are on fewer faces, and if a die has e.g. four faces, it might only place minor stuff on there. There are no major blessings or curses on the dice - this is more the vampire level stuff, though I suppose some of the artifact and pet and healing blessings do feel pretty major despite being medium. Just wanted symmetry with the no major curses (and of course the dice are goofily overpowered as it stands.)
Dunno what happens if a creature gets an item interaction as a CAN_DO_INTERACTION type thing.
I don't have a better technical writeup of SKILL_ROLL_RANGE etc. than the one provided. Those are about how skill is applied to the job products, and how the skill is changed when the given job/reaction is performed. IP refers to improvement points, or the speed at which the skill/att is increased per job.
Quote from: voliol
What does "all creatures w/ spit + animal people variation get it" (line 24) in the new file changes file mean? Is it describing which creatures get the pet interaction?
Teneb: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082257#msg8082257
Post by: Toady One on February 01, 2020, 04:06:14 am
Quote from: Beag
1. Do any of the profession background skills our adventurer can now possess have any means of using them/training them?
2. Are there any special things our adventurers can do with the new array of possible starting items such as extracts and tools?
3. I played an escaped experiment and went to a necromancer tower, the necromancers and experiments were fine with me but the corrupted ones killed me, is this working as you intended?
4. Will you be releasing small patches for this update in the coming days as bug reports come in?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082360#msg8082360
1. Not outside of the existing reactions from earlier versions.
2. Nothing new was added here, as far as I can recall.
3. No, I think they are generally too friendly -- zombies should leave you alone, since you are a night creature. But anything belonging to the necromancer's group and which is intelligent should theoretically have a problem with you hanging out there without an id check (which would be impossible to satisfy currently due to a bug, see below.)
4. There will be some patches for the crashes and other new crap and some old crap, but we also have to switch gears to graphics stuff in a timely fashion. But we'll be doing some parallel bug fix releases as that process goes. I do not know how frequent those will be, but since I need to fix bad stuff (new and old) before the Steam/itch release anyway, there aren't any significant obstacles other than just keeping the graphics stuff rolling (our current problem.)
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Looks like evil regions spread pretty quickly in worldgen, does this mean maybe we can see them change in game?
Nope. There just isn't the same mass use of the raising power currently in general post-battle situations, and so I didn't implement the change, though some of the disasters that happen in fort body stockpiles would definitely qualify (but don't, yet.)
Quote from: Untrustedlife
It seems to me that a large amount of the "lag" in heavily populated sites (eg human cities when next to a marketplace or highly populated tavern/whatever building) in vanilla dwarf fortress comes from the conversations happening that you dont actually see until they are close enough to hear. Have you ever considered reducing the amount of off screen conversation to speed up traversing these places?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082531#msg8082531
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082817#msg8082817
iceball3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082822#msg8082822
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082827#msg8082827
nogoodnames: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082850#msg8082850
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082853#msg8082853
etc.
I don't have anything to add (see conversation). It's often complicated and while there are still some simple changes that come up, sometimes it's an interrelated mess, yeah. Certainly the general mess of their conversations needs to be cleaned up, even if it isn't an FPS issue. (and it may be, see dwarf chat response)
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are you going to wait until Premium DF is done and released before getting back to any of the Villains features, or is it enough to set up the graphics framework to allow the artists to test and improve their work before looking at some of the postponed features?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082569#msg8082569
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082624#msg8082624
The delayed features will indeed have to wait through the entire delay period, until after Steam. It isn't just the time spent implementing them, but in working on new villain features, the introduction of even more bugs would be an additional drag. Doing parallel bug fixes, on the other hand, is all good no matter the release.
Quote from: Beag
I've noticed that when I played as an escaped experiment boogey men didn't attack me when I was alone at night, is this intended?
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082895#msg8082895
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082901#msg8082901
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Any particular reason why we get the "you must leave this site before you can rest" (or whatever message it is) when we try to rest in friendly human forts?
If you don't have a rep, it may be a war state, which seem to happen to the mercenaries and bandits (not sure what sort of fort it was.) It should definitely be more clear about what's going on, even if it isn't a bug (not sure.) It could also be a mess of what's going on with friendly necros etc., like the fort wasn't supposed to be friendly (for whatever reason), but was. I'll try to get this cleaned up.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Just curious: why are failed experiments represented by the letter "H" in-game as opposed to the "Ñ/ñ" tile used for other night creatures?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083008#msg8083008
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083013#msg8083013
There should be a variety of letters. I think it uses H for at-least-as-large-as-people humanoids? This is of course confusing, and the whole reason we went with U instead of H for humans was to have less confusion. But we are just out of letters now, and Ñ is also confusing because there are many different kinds of experiments in a given tower oftentimes, and they need to be distinguishable (as often as possible.) The real night creature haunting DF may be the pigeonhole principle...
Quote from: Seagoon
Seem to have a problem trying to ask for quests/report them to my characters superiors, the option is just not in the list. There is a 'hidden' option where the character says they are confused, but other than the usual options thats about it. What am i missing/doing wrong?
I'm not sure you're missing anything. Bugs with this sort of thing are quite possible. You'll likely get faster replies in gameplay questions if you don't think it's a bug, and on the bug tracker I can keep track of problems better than in here.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
I noticed you have been doing different updates on steam versus on your own devlog lately? (eg today(1/30/2020) you talked about the new bugs on steam but didn't do a dev log on your website about it and you have done this a couple times now) Any plans to change it so you post the same thing in both or will i have to continue checking both from now on to get all the latest dev news?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083038#msg8083038
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083072#msg8083072
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083075#msg8083075
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083078#msg8083078
As it stands, the Steam News stuff is on a two week schedule. Every other Thursday. (this was not true at the year change, as with many things) If something's going on at that time, I'll write it there, where the dev logs are on their normal try-for-a-week schedule. Since I'd been doing dev logs in a vaguely Wednesdayish way for a time, Steam didn't usually have much new stuff, but when stuff gets staggered (due to release, etc.), sometimes something comes up over on Steam first, and maybe I don't have a natural way to say it on the dev log or just don't remember. There's is the thing also where if I just devlogged about something on Wednesday, it feels very normal to expand a bit on my previous thoughts when writing the Steam news, or add some detail I remember. I don't have a plan to strictly monitor this process, but I can mostly continue to try to keep the dev log comprehensive. The Steam news cycle may change of course when we pivot over there - it won't be possible to settle that until we see how things proceed.
Quote from: zakarum
Can dwarves change/adopt religion? Do sermons make dwarves more inclined to a different religion? Can dwarves lose faith in a god?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083117#msg8083117
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083280#msg8083280
We didn't get to anything interesting beyond what was logged, sadly. As PatrikLundell says, worldgen has more stuff. But that is the sort of thing we are hoping to have throughout the modes, and we're a step closer now, anyway. As voliol notes, adv mode isn't particularly interesting either.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Worldgen relationships question:
Lovers get married, but do childhood friends ever later become lovers? That seems like it should be a thing on occasion.
Hmm, I don't think there's a block on it, but the odd part is that I don't think it increases the chances. It'd kinda need an extra pass/chance thing - getting people paired off in w.g. at all is involved and necessarily a bulk operation, given the variables involved, and it's hard to change the main loop there, but just adding in a periodic extra check would be pretty cheap among personal friendship-style relationships.
Quote from: Beag
When I was playing an escaped necromancer experiment I traveled around for a few days and didn't get hungry thirsty or tired, do escaped necromancer experiments not need to eat, drink or sleep?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083258#msg8083258
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083278#msg8083278
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083465#msg8083465
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083468#msg8083468
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083504#msg8083504
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083515#msg8083515
The entire reason is that they would starve to death in world gen without farms or livestock. It's similar to the goblins, but even worse, since they are actively trying to kill everything. It would be somewhat amusing if they started farming failed experiment horned maggots for meat or something, at which point the necromancer would really be more like some kind of scifi terraformer making the planet into an alien world.
Quote from: Atomic Chicken
How does the new RANDOM_NEARBY_LOCATION interaction token argument work? That is to say, what checks are performed to determine whether a particular tile is a valid spawn point? Are creature characteristics (such as the ability to fly) taken into account with regards to summoning interactions using this? What happens if such an interaction were to be performed by a flying creature surrounded by nothing but open space when the unit being summoned is not a flier?
It is a little wonky now because it does a pathing flood out from the summoner. And this causes exactly the issue you describe.
Quote from: clinodev
Are altars and dice meant to be adventure only, or for both modes? In fortress mode they can be bought at embark, made in the craftdwarf's workshop, and found in reclaimed worldgen forts, but altars at least cannot be built in fortress mode.
Are dwarf necromancers intended to openly arrive as regular migrants in fort mode? I've watched two very funny streams with multiple necromancer migrants, but they didn't end well.
They are adventure mode things mainly, the active parts, but I wanted the furniture available for placement in fort mode to get that side of things started (even if dice rolling would be way too disruptive there for now.) Looks like the placement bit is not done then, and that's a bug.
No, the necromancer migrants coming openly is definitely a bug, ha ha ha.
Quote from: voliol
What are the requirements for a non-player fortress/civ breaching the underworld? It has been observed to happen multiple times in the same fortress (link), but could this happen to the previously emerged demon civ, without any intermediate take-over?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083376#msg8083376
Yes, it is a bit ridiculous right now. I mean, technically mining gobs should be able to do it too, but they should know better, one would expect! Or do the spire thing like the original demons. This recursive-style demon dig is just odd.
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Gotta get a couple more in before the opportunity closes:
How free-willed are the current intelligent undead? (I remember a long time ago you said one of the big essential things about them is that they could, in fact run off and start a farm, or bandit group etc)
Will we ever see any night creatures akin to a Ring Wraith? Eg a night creature or monstrous magical thing associated with certain artifacts who hunt the current user of it.
Why do the new ghouls and intelligent undead have [SYN_CONCENTRATION_ADDED:1000:0]
What does the [EXPERIMENT_ONLY]interaction token which always appears alongside [I_SOURCE:EXPERIMENT] do? You would think [I_SOURCE:EXPERIMENT] would be all thats needed here. So [EXPERIMENT_ONLY] must do something special.
The intelligent undead just have an entity link, which (for the living and the dead), causes them to act against their own self interest quite a bit and be loyal to the civ, absent outside forces (like some of the new villain stuff.) If the intelligent undead break out of that (after the tower is attacked, etc.), then they are free. We'll likely opt for other system possibilities later when magic can back it up.
Artifact etc. magical stuff is all on the giant table for the magic release, but no idea what we'll support on the first go.
The SYN_CONCENTRATION_ADDED tag was a precaution after I had one bug with effects not fully manifesting due to low levels. It may not be necessary, but I decided to give everybody a full dose of the juice until I could get a closer look at it.
EXPERIMENT_ONLY: Rather than just a source, it should probably be mixed with USAGE_HINTS somehow, but it has to be starker in stopping it from being used outside the experiment context. It's just a cludge for the mix there since I didn't have time to do better. It stops the use in play and also encourages the usage specifically to create experimental population. Theoretically, though I didn't check this, if you have an invader in w.g. that does experiments, they should apply any modded effect that has EXPERIMENT_ONLY and an ADD_SYNDROME effect, no matter what it is, to make whatever kind of army (though these armies will probably be treated as less than intelligent/soulless in some contexts since they are expected to be zombieish.) An "invader that does experiments" here is a UNIQUE_DEMON with deformity or chaos (and the demonic experiments param is set) or anybody with NIGHT_CREATURE_EXPERIMENTER, who also knows a relevant interaction. I'm less sure about the demons -- they can know lots of secrets since they get them for free through spheres, but I don't know how easy it is to link one of these ghoul-type interactions to them. Doing it as a deformity or chaos I_SOURCE:SECRET/IS_SPHERE may work.
Quote from: FAA
I don't know how often this persists, but in most worlds I generated in 0.47, other races replaced primary races that built those structures. Most hillocks, for example, are full of goblins, to the point where in my last world, most of them had no dwarves at all, which seems to have caused the problem with no innkeepers spawning in them. Do you plan to introduce harsher restrictions on race immigration? Perhaps xenophilia-xenophobia could be a good civ value as well.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083568#msg8083568
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083569#msg8083569
FAA (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083691#msg8083691
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083725#msg8083725
The goblins are especially bad now with all the too-deep digging, though I agree they should at least refer more to why the demographics are the way they are in a nominally dwarfy site. I am happy with the mingling over time though, as a basic matter, and don't want to replicate the stark divides often found. Agree even existing facet/value information could play a role in this.
Quote from: Beag
I played as a necromancer in the new update and raised a pale stalker, the pale stalker then killed me, is this a bug? If not how do I get my undead lieutenants to obey me?
Ha ha, it does not give them an entity link or anything for you in post w.g. currently. It would probably be nice of me to make it consistent at least.
Quote from: Rubik
I wonder if there's a new age name for a world with only necromancers and their undead slaves alive
The new necromancers are capable of corrupting an entire pocket-sized world so it should be possible
It's in the notes but I had to delay it along with all the rest. It is something that definitely suggests itself when you see your first fully undead world, and there should be intermediate names as well probably.
Quote from: Beag
Are player adventurers able to assume identities from necromancer groups? I have been on a quest to find the creator of a created race as that race but when I assume an identity I can't pick the group that the necromancer belongs to.
Hmm, it appears to use top-level civs, which they aren't, or the 'discovered' flag... however that works. That part seems a bit antiquated, sadly, and necromancers had to use site entities over site entities to manage their conquests to avoid a whole host of pre-entity-framework-rewrite problems (so they aren't civs.) This may be manageable in this context though, but I'd need to tweak it.
Quote from: janxious
Given you've very recently changed the screen for temples, can you please add two pieces of information to it? Specifically:
What are the god's spheres?
How many worshippers of the god are in the fort?
I can get that information from the new location menu but not from the established location menu and it drives me crazy.
That makes sense, yeah, I wanted that myself in testing. Don't recall if I left a note, but that's easily remedied.
Quote from: JesterHell696
Given that you're going to be selling DF Premium commercially on Steam and have a professional publisher I feel the need to ask, have you or Kitfox given any thought to how you will implement adventure mode romance, relationships and reproduction?
I'm asking this because one of the things I've seen either added in the based game of damn near every RPG or game with RPG-ish elements is the romance options/companions, Mass effect, Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, The Elder Scrolls, Fable, Stardew Valley, Divinity: Original Sin, Crusader Kings 2, The Guild, The Sims 1-4 etc.
I just can't help but feel that there is going to be a clamouring for that option once DF goes mainSteam.
For the record my vote is for the Sims style "Woohoo" but only because I know the very real risks with anything more.... detailed...
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083829#msg8083829
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083830#msg8083830
Yeah, the replies there are about all we have, just the current dev notes. If things like hugging and so forth join, uh, pet animal and spit in the interaction list, that wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it would get incredibly far beyond that in terms of those options in local play. Having a short 'wait screen' style bar pass for the rest is fine, probably. Though, yeah, we haven't made specific plans or had Kitfox conversations about this.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are you not showing the night-creature descriptions in Adventurer character creation on purpose ('cos, "doh I'm a useless blob" is Fun), or is it something you haven't gotten around to doing yet?
And will experiments get variations (skin, hair colour, eyes, etc). It's kind of sad to see their completely blank "Appearance" tab. Even gorlaks get a brief eye/skin description there.
Ha ha, that was again one of those things where during testing, I played an experiment, curious as to what sort it was, and then when I got to the blank page, I said to myself "ah, that sucks" and went to look at my description after I started, and noted down that chargen should have at least the basic description available. But I didn't get there!
Yeah, I forget the frills oftentimes with the generated critters, and there are a few annoying complications to hooking them up (keeping track of whether they have skin or scales or eyes or whatever and which tokens, etc., which is already done for basic tissues and attacks, but just a little irritating to manage.) We'll get there at some point, especially now that generated creatures are way more apparent than they were before.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 01, 2020, 04:23:54 am
Post by: clinodev on February 01, 2020, 04:35:45 am
Post by: ZM5 on February 01, 2020, 05:05:57 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 01, 2020, 05:06:33 am
It's been nice to see here and over at Reddit for the past couple of days that despite being still ver .01, a lot of people are managing to play and enjoy all the new weird and wonderful features, especially in Adventurer.
Post by: ZM5 on February 01, 2020, 07:54:43 am
EDIT: Before I forget - whats the token that marks a creature as a necromancer experiment? I don't think I've seen it in extracted raws yet.
Post by: Molay on February 01, 2020, 08:10:22 am
for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.
Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy, unless they're being attacked in melee.
Post by: Knight Otu on February 01, 2020, 08:42:50 am
Post by: Bumber on February 01, 2020, 10:22:02 am
for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.
Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy, unless they're being attacked in melee.
Probably won't happen until the Army dev arc. I suppose it could be fixed during Steam release if it causes a big enough problem for newbs.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 01, 2020, 02:19:34 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on February 01, 2020, 10:46:42 pm
Post by: Warlord255 on February 01, 2020, 11:15:54 pm
Summoning and conjuration are insane godsends, but will we see any adjustments before the Big Wait?
Three come to mind for items:
First, temporary item summons to prevent potential clutter. The tag exists for creature summons but not items. This could be a problem for fort mode if you have something that, say, conjures a vast surplus of swords.
Second, equipping items. Behavior tests so far have units failing to grab/grasp/wear conjured weapons and equipment. I surmise this was never meant to be given to non-players, but it could be handy.
Third, summoning items in random/target locations, as with unit summons, doesn't seem to work. They can only be spawned on top of existing units, which has led to only one warfare application so far - conjuring water and lava on top of a creature simultaneously to "obsidianize" them. With point-and-shoot targeting we might see more peaceful uses, like wall building... or some Cask of Amontillado business.
Forgive this servant of modding for his hubris! Do as thou wilt, o master of the Great Work!
Post by: Schmaven on February 02, 2020, 12:18:03 am
for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.
Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy, unless they're being attacked in melee.
I've noticed that when well trained (legendary in most categories), they tend to work as expected. My marksdwarves will stand a few tiles back in an open field and just shoot as the melee squad keeps the target at bay. And my lone marksdwarves will shoot, run away, shoot, and repeat until they are forced into melee.
How trained are your marksdwarves?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 02, 2020, 12:41:34 am
The problem comes when they run out of bolts.
for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.
Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy, unless they're being attacked in melee.
I've noticed that when well trained (legendary in most categories), they tend to work as expected. My marksdwarves will stand a few tiles back in an open field and just shoot as the melee squad keeps the target at bay. And my lone marksdwarves will shoot, run away, shoot, and repeat until they are forced into melee.
How trained are your marksdwarves?
Instead of hanging back and letting the guys with melee weapons finish the job, or going to get more bolts, if there's a clear path they'll charge and try to do it themselves using their crossbows as clubs (fairly ineffectively).
Something for the army arc though when tactics, formations and such are looked at. We might see something with the Improved Sieges improvements coming after Steam, but the main focus is slightly different there.
Post by: Lemunde on February 02, 2020, 01:21:33 am
Post by: JesterHell696 on February 02, 2020, 02:13:29 am
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083829#msg8083829
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083830#msg8083830
Yeah, the replies there are about all we have, just the current dev notes. If things like hugging and so forth join, uh, pet animal and spit in the interaction list, that wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it would get incredibly far beyond that in terms of those options in local play. Having a short 'wait screen' style bar pass for the rest is fine, probably. Though, yeah, we haven't made specific plans or had Kitfox conversations about this.
Thanks for the answers, as always it is much appreciated. :)
The thought process that lead to this was reading Shonai's question about childhood friends becoming lovers.
- I read Shonai's question about childhood friends becoming lovers.
- I wondered if the same was true for battlefield friends.
- Adventurers party are a type of battle brothers/sisters which should lead to the same type of friendships forming.
- Not being able to form such friendships in adventure mode is a noticeable discrepancy.
- If childhood friendships and battlefield friendships result in increased chanced of becoming lovers then adventurer party friendships should too.
- How do Toady and Kitfox think the issues around adventure mode romance should be handled.
So I did what I've always done and jumps start to the end and forgot about the in-between stuff, I actually wanted to ask about battlefield friendships effect on romance/lovers and their place in adventure mode but got distracted and forgot. :-[
I guess I'll just ask now for next month ;)
So I forgot some questions I had, I'll ask them now for next month, if they get answered in the mean time no biggie.
-Edit- removed redundant question -Edit-
Do you think Battlefield friendships fit adventure mode party dynamics or is the relationship between the members of a long term adventurer party its own unique thing?
I personally haven't found a case in legends yet but do people seek revenge on the behalf of family, friends and lovers or do they only avenge themselves?
-Edit- removed answered question -Edit-
-Edit- Removed leading question -Edit-
I let my mind runaway again. :P
Probably in exactly the same way as Fortress Mode (as far as the sex part goes anyway). That is, invisibly. Easily managed while passing time while in the company of a spouse/lover in Adventurer or while retired.
As for actual romance and such, Toady has threatened bad poetry recitals and there are pages of suggestions over in the suggestions forum on procgen cultural courting rituals.
While it's in the dev notes, it's all so far in the future that it's not likely to have been considered in such great detail yet.
There are multiple ways to implement romance and reproduction, off screen/loading bar/wait screen, a dance style performance "you make love to Urist mcLover", I while I didn't really think that a play by play sex mini game was in the cards but it is technically a possibility, Steam does allow pornographic games in their store now so its not a issue there.
I remember reading a suggestion discussion on adventure mode romance/sex and it quickly became a debate about how much abstraction was acceptable and the risks of adding too much detail, mostly because of He who must not be named and how any addition to romance, like hand holding, hugging or kissing would make his inevitable return easier.
I just wondered where Toady stands, do you not have any of these options because of the risk? do you mitigate those risks by cutting some options but leaving a romantic "wasteland" with few mostly "sterile" options or do you just say "fuck it" and go balls deep into the controversy for those click baity news articles because there's "no such thing as bad publicity".
This is why I included Kitfox in the question, as a publisher they'll have a much better understanding of how much detail Toady can put into DF before it becomes a untenable risk to the product, It seems like the direction Toady is leaning is "off screen/loading bar" which is perfectly understandable given the sensitivity of the subject and the risks of getting it wrong in the court of public opinion.
I guess that while I accept that this is how it works I do find it weird that gouging people eyes out, disembowelling them and systematically breaking all their limbs is acceptable but Sex isn't, so I wondered if, given that DF is moving to be more commercial product with a professional publisher, there had been consideration given to this issue.
How do you best handle the implementation of romance and reproduction without burning DF to the ground while still allowing enough options to make romance a fun and engaging enough activity for adventure mode players to actually use? seem like walking a tightrope. ???
Yes, by the time adventure mode romance is implemented it's likely to be against a backdrop of full myth, magic, and law frameworks.
Given that Toady quoted you as well as Shonai I'm guessing he also sees it as a long ways off, which is fair and up until he announced steam I would have agreed without question, but now that Steam is getting "DF premium" version I just can't help but wonder how releasing on steam and getting an influx of new players will effect those priorities, I can see a subset of new players clamouring for friendships and romance options/companions as it is something that has become kind of standard for RPGs, hence my short list of games with romance options.
But FotF isn't really the place to discuss this in depth and I'm not going to be the guy that Necros a sex thread, I'll leave that job to the more sexually adventurous of us. :P
I'll see myself out.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 02, 2020, 02:36:48 am
He also already answered the question about friends becoming lovers.
And Adventurers don't have romance yet. And won't until it's implemented far in the future. Many, many things happen in Worldgen that don't happen in game yet.They all need to make it into the game at some point, romance isn't somehow special that way.
Post by: Silverwing235 on February 02, 2020, 03:09:16 am
(snip)First time I've had to do this for somebody else, your text does however need proper colouring, so the eyes of the One Toad may discern queries from the usual babble around those parts. (Just color=limegreen in square brackets, then close as usual.)
Summoning and conjuration are insane godsends, but will we see any adjustments before the Big Wait?
Three come to mind for items:
First, temporary item summons to prevent potential clutter. The tag exists for creature summons but not items. This could be a problem for fort mode if you have something that, say, conjures a vast surplus of swords.
Second, equipping items. Behavior tests so far have units failing to grab/grasp/wear conjured weapons and equipment. I surmise this was never meant to be given to non-players, but it could be handy.
Third, summoning items in random/target locations, as with unit summons, doesn't seem to work. They can only be spawned on top of existing units, which has led to only one warfare application so far - conjuring water and lava on top of a creature simultaneously to "obsidianize" them. With point-and-shoot targeting we might see more peaceful uses, like wall building... or some Cask of Amontillado business.
(/snip)
Post by: JesterHell696 on February 02, 2020, 03:25:55 am
Hi. I answered based on the times Toady has discussed the matter (podcast, maybe dftalk, fotf, etc). And, as Toady said, that's all there is, random speculation.
Hence my asking in FotF if there been any more on the sensitive subject since DF is at least, in part going commercial.
He also already answered the question about friends becoming lovers.
I looked it over again, I thought the response was just about childhood friendships, must have missed it being a general "friendship-style relationships" in my rush to get the answer to my question, I'll edit that out.
And Adventurers don't have romance yet. And won't until it's implemented far in the future. Many, many things happen in Worldgen that don't happen in game yet.They all need to make it into the game at some point, romance isn't somehow special that way.
There is lot that still needs to go in, but I'm pretty sure something was said about how now thanks to the Steam release things are more open to being shuffled around as necessary, depending upon how the Steam release goes and what the major concerns of the new player turn out to be.
Personally I can see the noticeable discrepancy of no adventure mode relationships when they exist in both world gen and fortress mode being brought up, how important it ends up being is questionable but I personally can't rule it out altogether from the post-Steam pre-Magic work, much like making more of the skills usable in adventure mode, some people are not going to want to wait until after a multi-year development arc for their adventurer to finally be able to have a family.
Personally I want skills like farming, animal training, brewing, cooking etc in adventure mode more then relationships but its impossible to know what the masses want until they get here, so I'm speculating and thinking, if relationships becomes a major demand, what is the plan? because unlike most skills there are some rather dangerous landmines with the relationship implementation question.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 02, 2020, 04:13:03 am
:
Mage beast and semi-mega beast reproduce during world gen, how do they go about their reproduction? do giants form relationships Off screen/invisibly or is it just mindless mating/reproduction?
Since some animals do form pair bonds for life would it make sense for at least some Mega beasts and Semi-Mega beast to form relationships and track family members so they can seek revenge or render assistance to each other or are they intended to not have such motivations?
:
All current mega beasts are of animal intelligence, and so, presumably, breed the same way as animals, i.e. viable male impregnates viable female when opportunity arises. It's worked with the few cases I've had opportunity to try with captured pairs.
Intelligent semi mega beasts presumably use the same breeding model as other "wild" intelligent creatures (such as troglodytes), i.e. the animal breeding model. This can be seen when a group camps in a cavern. I don't know if anyone has tried to set up any breeding programs for intelligent semi mega beasts, though, but it has probably been done.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 02, 2020, 05:49:26 am
:Intelligent semi mega beasts presumably use the same breeding model as other "wild" intelligent creatures (such as troglodytes), i.e. the animal breeding model. This can be seen when a group camps in a cavern. I don't know if anyone has tried to set up any breeding programs for intelligent semi mega beasts, though, but it has probably been done.
Mage beast and semi-mega beast reproduce during world gen, how do they go about their reproduction? do giants form relationships Off screen/invisibly or is it just mindless mating/reproduction?
Since some animals do form pair bonds for life would it make sense for at least some Mega beasts and Semi-Mega beast to form relationships and track family members so they can seek revenge or render assistance to each other or are they intended to not have such motivations?
:
Fully intelligent megabeasts or otherwise for 44.12 rely on marriage rules and it happens offscreen in w.g, only slow learners like 'Giants' rely on animal-level mating given the practices you can partake in to breed troglodytes and trolls by breeding them on a chain or in cages near compatible mates. Though its fully possible now on 47.01 that cyclopian family groups could be introduced to one another in fortress mode through controlled introduction to one another on a chain in the hopes of them becoming lovers, though its not much of a existance.
The purposes for breeding cyclopses would be a difficult lengthy process, that isn't nearly as productive as breeding trolls (putting in pits, slow down siegers, long lifespan for cage exhibits) for albiet a cyclops has much more potential (once a few years has elapsed) to be used as defensive failguard or guardian of a pit. Taking into account megabeast caps too.
- The civilized concept of marriage not being applicable to megabeasts and uncivilized creatures and thinking about life-bond/relationship status of a mate -monogomy is a nice thought but probably warrants a suggestion thread instead
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 02, 2020, 08:20:49 am
Post by: FAA on February 02, 2020, 09:50:13 am
Post by: Bumber on February 02, 2020, 11:00:48 am
Item materials - as there are seemingly no restrictions on item materials, the game creates immersion-breaking gold, silver or tetrahedrite barrels in taverns, and every table/chair is made of different material. Even kobold forts have golden tables, even though there is no other loot to speak of - they lack weapons and are semi-naked. Do you plan to restrict materials used for things like chairs or tables to materials that are appropriate, and make them more uniform?
The answer to such questions is usually "Yes, at some point in the future."
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 02, 2020, 03:58:12 pm
Item materials - as there are seemingly no restrictions on item materials, the game creates immersion-breaking gold, silver or tetrahedrite barrels in taverns, and every table/chair is made of different material. Even kobold forts have golden tables, even though there is no other loot to speak of - they lack weapons and are semi-naked. Do you plan to restrict materials used for things like chairs or tables to materials that are appropriate, and make them more uniform?Hi. You've now asked the same question with variations 3 times. Why don't sites have realistic furniture/materials?
Rather than asking repeatedly here, how about making a Suggestion? How do you think we can apply balance to a game in which a huge variety of resources are available (to make the site management part of the game any fun at all) with "realism". Take a search there first of course, you'll find many detailed threads on resources and the economy for when it's introduced far in the future.
That is if "Realistic Fantasy" is a goal at all? If dwarves are pulling more tetrahedrite out of the ground than they know what to do with, why would you not make a table out of it? One player site seems to be able to pull out enough material to decorate every surrounding dwarf, elf, human and kobold site. And there are hundreds of dwarf fortresses operating throughout the world.
--edit
Kobolds live in caves which are generally full of loot. Your kobolds probably took over an empty fort (they don't build forts themselves) which already had a golden table.
Post by: Bumber on February 02, 2020, 04:41:58 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 02, 2020, 04:48:53 pm
I don't have a "version of the question". I could dig out and quote the other questions he posted on the topic, but that might make me seem a bit more stalkerish than I already do. :)Hi. You've now asked the same question with variations 3 times. Why don't sites have realistic furniture/materials?
Your version of the question is overly vague. The original gives 3 examples: Tetrahedrite and other ores are stone, which make large pots in DF, not barrels. The material selection for furniture is hodge-podge (more an aesthetics issue than realism.) Kobolds don't have access to masonry (but as you mentioned, the prior owners of the fort built the furniture.)
Post by: Bumber on February 02, 2020, 04:59:21 pm
I don't have a "version of the question". I could dig out and quote the other questions he posted on the topic, but that might make me seem a bit more stalkerish than I already do. :)I hadn't noticed he was the one who posted before, which Toady already answered. Thought you were talking just about the most recent post.
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 02, 2020, 11:25:59 pm
Any plans to make mummies build different looking towers?
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/555404726817259580/673741713004560396/unknown.png)
Post by: pikachu17 on February 03, 2020, 09:42:33 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 03, 2020, 09:49:07 am
Why don't statues in temples seem to curse me when I topple them anymore? Have you removed that for some reasom?
They only do so according to whether you worship the god or not, i can't remember the specific place but im very sure toady mentioned it in the fotf or devlog at some point. You can alternatively just poke holes in a vampire and lap up the blood yourself to quickly gain access to un-death.
Post by: therahedwig on February 03, 2020, 10:28:31 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 03, 2020, 10:30:47 am
Yes, it was nerfed to avoid nonsense with religious persecution (02/06/2019).
It also by consequence creates a lot more localised night creatures amongst sites where gods are prevelant, so there will be a few historical vampires and were's stalking around particular towns, forts and cities.
Post by: IncompetentFortressMaker on February 03, 2020, 08:26:16 pm
Post by: Fatace on February 03, 2020, 09:54:41 pm
Will we get a more better representation on how the Dark Fortress Civs Position system works? Modding wise, it seems to have become close to being unplayable as an idea for a "All Civs playable" type mods. With either Custom Offical positions, or newly created ones, causing crashes half the time, or every time. It seems that the new custom positions act like divine metals... They are either made during world gen or not.. and if they are, they seem to stop certain responsibilities being used with player custom positions, causing a further crash.
Will this be looked into with a better way of managing these positions for modders?
Post by: JesterHell696 on February 04, 2020, 08:40:54 am
All current mega beasts are of animal intelligence, and so, presumably, breed the same way as animals, i.e. viable male impregnates viable female when opportunity arises. It's worked with the few cases I've had opportunity to try with captured pairs.
Intelligent semi mega beasts presumably use the same breeding model as other "wild" intelligent creatures (such as troglodytes), i.e. the animal breeding model. This can be seen when a group camps in a cavern. I don't know if anyone has tried to set up any breeding programs for intelligent semi mega beasts, though, but it has probably been done.
I figured as that is what my observations seemed to suggest but didn't want to presume, it is disappointing that they truly are nothing more then big animals, but not unexpected, most fantasy settings I know treat at least dragons as intelligent if not giants and ettins. :(
Fully intelligent megabeasts or otherwise for 44.12 rely on marriage rules and it happens offscreen in w.g, only slow learners like 'Giants' rely on animal-level mating given the practices you can partake in to breed troglodytes and trolls by breeding them on a chain or in cages near compatible mates. Though its fully possible now on 47.01 that cyclopian family groups could be introduced to one another in fortress mode through controlled introduction to one another on a chain in the hopes of them becoming lovers, though its not much of a existance.
This answers my question, the intelligent ones do get treated like Civilised races its just hidden, this changes the question to why isn't this shown in legends in the same manner as civilised races? ???
The purposes for breeding cyclopses would be a difficult lengthy process, that isn't nearly as productive as breeding trolls (putting in pits, slow down siegers, long lifespan for cage exhibits) for albiet a cyclops has much more potential (once a few years has elapsed) to be used as defensive failguard or guardian of a pit. Taking into account megabeast caps too.
- The civilized concept of marriage not being applicable to megabeasts and uncivilized creatures and thinking about life-bond/relationship status of a mate -monogomy is a nice thought but probably warrants a suggestion thread instead
Its wasn't really a suggestion in my mind, you've got more of a suggestion then I do as I have no interest in capturing or breeding Mega or Semi-Mega Beasts, I personally prefer adventure mode, I'm really looking forward to a more complete adventure mode as I would prefer to play fortress mode in adventure mode with my character as the expedition leader/overseer and the other six of the starting seven can just be my party members, just requires the rest of the skills to be made functional in adventure mode. :P
But I digress so back to the subject at hand, I just thought about how there are no details about them breeding only that they do and I wondered the hows and whys of it being like that, I mean they can breed and the semi-megas can talk and many animals can form family groups or life long pair bonds even tho they are "just" animals so it makes a kind of logical sense for the Historical figure Mega and Semi-Mega Beasts to have them, or at least be more detail then as just big hist fig animals, If a magpie can hold a grudge why not a Roc? if Elephants can grieve their dead family/herd members why not Giants? ???
I thought my question was less of a "I think you should add this" and more of a "I wonder why you didn't add this?" it is why my question was worded as "would it make sense" and if "they(*'re) intended to not have such motivations?", but I can see how its can be taken as a leading question with suggestive undertones :-[, I'll remove it. :)
At this rate none of my questions will last the month. :D
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 04, 2020, 12:10:29 pm
Post by: Knight Otu on February 04, 2020, 12:22:38 pm
It really is weird. Other site types can happily combine variable positions and raw positions from my testing, but dark fortresses can't. That's in addition to the CHAT_WORTHY crash (and I think the other one was two or more LAW_MAKING positions).
Will we get a more better representation on how the Dark Fortress Civs Position system works? Modding wise, it seems to have become close to being unplayable as an idea for a "All Civs playable" type mods.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 04, 2020, 12:27:15 pm
Rocs can probably hold grudges... We're just not able to see the thoughts of animals and non fortress members, but they do exist and can be viewed using DFHack scripts. Animal thoughts are usually fairly simple, though, but they do exist.
These kind of interactions were deliberately fixed in multiple issue reports (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10366) already so aren't probably high priority to address as features. A parallel system of animals forming bonds we couldnt see may be confusing unless there were some sort of way to crack open the psychology of your pets.
It really is weird. Other site types can happily combine variable positions and raw positions from my testing, but dark fortresses can't. That's in addition to the CHAT_WORTHY crash (and I think the other one was two or more LAW_MAKING positions).
Will we get a more better representation on how the Dark Fortress Civs Position system works? Modding wise, it seems to have become close to being unplayable as an idea for a "All Civs playable" type mods.
'Risen' fortresses overtook by the underworld clowns are officially listed as 'Goblins' in the embark neighbour screen, rather than seperate so its most likely a conflict of identity where the risen fortresses must be generated with identical to goblin default raws, or be forced into only rising with no pre-made unique-demon towers (as other modders have shown recently by setting their sites to 0 and only having goblins emerge later with their clown masters in the genesis of their civ)
Im still checking it out, but even with the revised method of making goblins only emerge later in deep events, any infringement upon custom positions with CUSTOM_LAW_GIVER used in variable_positions: or attempting to overlap a existing one (which could be done safely in previous 44.12) immediately recieves a crash upon world generation to abort with no errorlog.
Post by: Fatace on February 04, 2020, 04:56:26 pm
Quote
'Risen' fortresses overtook by the underworld clowns are officially listed as 'Goblins' in the embark neighbour screen, rather than seperate so its most likely a conflict of identity where the risen fortresses must be generated with identical to goblin default raws, or be forced into only rising with no pre-made unique-demon towers (as other modders have shown recently by setting their sites to 0 and only having goblins emerge later with their clown masters in the genesis of their civ)
Im still checking it out, but even with the revised method of making goblins only emerge later in deep events, any infringement upon custom positions with CUSTOM_LAW_GIVER used in variable_positions: or attempting to overlap a existing one (which could be done safely in previous 44.12) immediately recieves a crash upon world generation to abort with no errorlog.
Yeah we are aware, we have gone through it all in the Modded Forums.
Post by: Doorkeeper on February 05, 2020, 12:48:12 am
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: PlumpHelmetManJust curious: why are failed experiments represented by the letter "H" in-game as opposed to the "Ñ/ñ" tile used for other night creatures?
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083008#msg8083008
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083013#msg8083013
There should be a variety of letters. I think it uses H for at-least-as-large-as-people humanoids? This is of course confusing, and the whole reason we went with U instead of H for humans was to have less confusion. But we are just out of letters now, and Ñ is also confusing because there are many different kinds of experiments in a given tower oftentimes, and they need to be distinguishable (as often as possible.) The real night creature haunting DF may be the pigeonhole principle...
@PHM: the letter H represents the h in humanoid, and this applies for other possible experiments: Q for quadrupeds, H again for hexapods, b for the failed blobs, etc.; same rule as titan or FB symbols. Capitalization indicates size. For the colors: red for individual citizens, green for others (livestock, multitudes/"amalgamations", & any failed).
Post by: Flying Teasets on February 05, 2020, 10:31:45 am
I'm guessing FIRE_SAFETY nobles will be more building inspector than firefighter; am I correct?
What will the MAINTAIN_ROADS/SEWERS/TUNNELS/BRIDGES nobles do? Just maintenance or travel network planning?
Will adding any of the new tokens to SITE and AS_NEEDED positions be a bad idea?
Post by: therahedwig on February 05, 2020, 11:02:46 am
Edit: it seems https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3791 already covers most of these, so I guess that's answered somehow...
Post by: pikachu17 on February 05, 2020, 10:05:40 pm
Post by: boxxu on February 06, 2020, 04:06:41 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 06, 2020, 05:12:06 am
I've been generating a lot of worlds in the new version, and I've been noticing that Dwarven civilizations are having a really hard time at sticking around,especially in longer histories. The new digging too deep and greedily events, Powerful necromancers and other civs having infinite lifespans seems to be really taking a toll. Are there any plans to buff dwarfs during world gen? Perhaps unique dwarven events that are positive?
Dwarves are getting pulled into a lot of wars via the alliance system and subsquent beatdowns vs big-bads meaning that artifacts are being deployed (and occasionally lost) in world-generation battles* , even if there is rarely a peacetime long enough for their religious dispora to seed artifacts across the world and a large casualty rate making pockets of hillocks rather than kingdom's of Dwarves.
- More of a question of when these events get rebalanced we should hopefully see the world as a bit more dynamic, or momentarily finding ways to prohibit dug-deep events from happening altogether in the current version by some modding means.
*(i have a 200 dwarves to 20 clown casualty rate battle on one of my generated worlds where two artifacts were used in a detailed post over on the 47.01 announcement thread)
Post by: Knight Otu on February 06, 2020, 05:30:17 am
Is there a way to make summoning not summon or only summon creatures of a specific creature class? If not, why not?
Per the last set of answers:
For summons, for specific creatures, according to this code you should be able to send in "[CREATURE:<creature token>:<caste token>]". Using "ALL" or "ANY" or "DEFAULT" for the caste token lets all of the castes in. But you can't currently use this tag more than once per effect. So you can do something at least, though it can be improved. And there is not class support currently. The flags usually refer to the creature/caste tokens that don't have arguments, and it supports about 180 of those for castes, which should be most of them, but doesn't include anything complicated that involves a number or string (like a class.)
I would guess that either Toady didn't add it yet because he didn't need it for the summoning interactions he wanted, or because it would take more time than he was willing to spend when he was already feeling crunched for time.
Post by: AliceRed on February 06, 2020, 10:01:28 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 06, 2020, 10:16:33 am
The new necromancer minions with magic abilities had me wondering - do you think in the future you might add a more magical alternative to the FBs, with crazier/more unnatural appearances like [SNIP]
Likewise, do you think depending on how magic is generated per world, that Demons could become even more of a threat - like, say, the classic wall strategies becoming useless due to Demons sometimes having the ability to teleport or become intangible? Just this small taste of magic is making me so giddy for the future!
Specifics outside of a broad range will probably warrant a 'Probably' or 'Hadnt thought about it' response from Toady. With the Magic arc there will be a wider variety of creatures humanoid and otherwise (with some generated examples) with the extent of magic powers (and how that originates & manifests). Players can also already add in pseudomagic interactions (dragons interact to breathe fire, there's also a nifty illusionist trick someone developed on modding forum), but adding them to FB's might be a specific question that can be greenied by itself or took to suggestions forum.
Devlog and previous FotF replies are also good places to source what Toady thinks the projective outlook of the Magic arc (quite a way away, ever stretching further)
Demons themselves are said to be subject to more controls in the future as to the conditions where they spawn and how the spawn, including certain conditions making them finite or least partially immortal (such as reincarnating back in the underworld or plane) but that'll probably run alongside what Toady's expressed plans on sliders & creation myths.
- More demons with more power to them when the world combines the right factors definitely sounds threatening, while on another generation they might be semi-mortal and a bit more scaled back for whichever given in-world generated reason, such as being punished or starved of empowerment
Post by: AliceRed on February 06, 2020, 11:22:40 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 06, 2020, 11:42:55 am
Post by: Untrustedlife on February 06, 2020, 11:43:37 am
Interesting, interesting! I almost wonder if, in some worlds, demons would end up closer to spirits or ghosts like some portrayals rather than tangible entities.Meant to quote you above ^
If you havent i HIGHLY recommend it.
Post by: pikachu17 on February 06, 2020, 02:02:56 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 06, 2020, 03:41:13 pm
Is USAGE_HINT:MAJOR_BLESSING a thing, and if so, where can you find it?
DF folder => Raw => Interaction Examples
If you have any more technical questions relating to files, or general gameplay stuff, DF Gameplay Questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=7.0) or DF modding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=13.0) is a really great place to look for answers.
Most of the time, the questions Toady is best at is to do with devleopment & stuff players and forum-ite lurkers can't see behind the scenes like hidden descriptions or tokens without digging purposefully in string-dumps. Major blessing themselves happen whilst using divination dice with the [TOOL_USE:DIVINATION] tool token (and the faces to activate based on outcome, i suppose you could make a book that divinates you every time you read it by comparison)
Post by: Putnam on February 07, 2020, 06:52:07 am
Post by: pikachu17 on February 07, 2020, 09:38:16 am
Post by: Knight Otu on February 07, 2020, 10:05:20 am
Is USAGE_HINT:MAJOR_BLESSING a thing, and if so, how can you make one happen to your adventurer?Based on my findings, major_blessing is not a thing at all currently - and there really wouldn't be a mechanic for them to be granted, at the moment.
Post by: Inarius on February 07, 2020, 10:12:18 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 07, 2020, 09:23:04 pm
Now that people can open the circus, will wee see adamantine artifacts during w.g ?No. At least not in the many, many worlds I've made since 47.01 hit.
Post by: iceball3 on February 08, 2020, 03:10:57 am
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/533275832735498243/675614082174418945/unknown.png)
Will you still be using these particular symbols once magical items are properly introduced?
I mainly ask because this line has been in the manual for a very long time now, i think, and it would be super easy for anyone to forget! I was a little surprised in retrospect that books with strictly-magical secrets don't get those symbols yet, as they currently are.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 08, 2020, 04:22:10 am
I just checked out the ingame manual again for once in a long while, and just noticed again the cool symbols you've got set and unused for magical items.
[snip]
I mainly ask because this line has been in the manual for a very long time now, i think, and it would be super easy for anyone to forget! I was a little surprised in retrospect that books with strictly-magical secrets don't get those symbols yet, as they currently are.
Well i imagine that Toady will have to make a bunch of other UI & AI responses to discriminate, there's also the distinction over whether a object is inheirently magical for a given reason (the sword was made this way), imbued with a magical improvement, or could be mundane with a magical property (like divination dice) that might need a whole new set of symbol configurations.
Putting your sword that catches fire when picked up in the middle of the stockpile of wooden swords (without stockpile settings) by accident for instance being a likely nessecity as to why its unused.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 08, 2020, 07:19:04 am
Post by: Inarius on February 08, 2020, 12:03:17 pm
Post by: IndigoFenix on February 08, 2020, 01:48:05 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on February 08, 2020, 09:05:05 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 08, 2020, 09:38:04 pm
@Shonai_Dweller : i noticed too ! Hence the "will" !Yeah, but *will* can mean between now and 2050 in the current development schedule. So, "yeah, probably, no specific timeline" will be the only possible answer.
Toady mentioned not having gone into the subtleties of "what is adamantine" this time when it comes to circus breakthroughs, so I imagine nothing has changed yet.
I imagine stuff like if worldgen dwarves are allowed to make stuff from candy, then surely goblins unleashed through a big layer of candy will have access to it too. And should they know how to use it? And should they plot to kidnap and enslave dwarves who do? Will that be too much Fun to be attacked by a demon lead wave of candy-clad gobbos? And how about those humans who move into abandoned candy mines? And Kobolds? Lots to think about, hopefully see something, but not unexpected if we don't just yet.
Post by: therahedwig on February 09, 2020, 03:22:48 pm
Post by: Inarius on February 09, 2020, 04:33:25 pm
Post by: AliceRed on February 09, 2020, 04:39:01 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 09, 2020, 06:59:24 pm
@Shonai_Dweller : i noticed too ! Hence the "will" !I imagine stuff like if worldgen dwarves are allowed to make stuff from candy, then surely goblins unleashed through a big layer of candy will have access to it too. And should they know how to use it? And should they plot to kidnap and enslave dwarves who do? Will that be too much Fun to be attacked by a demon lead wave of candy-clad gobbos? And how about those humans who move into abandoned candy mines? And Kobolds? Lots to think about, hopefully see something, but not unexpected if we don't just yet.
Risking sounding boring and mundane, i might pipe up with the trivia that typically this kind of (scurry for newly discovered resource through the disaster, or disaster waiting to happen) can be typified for any kind of material carrying [DEEP_SPECIAL] as much as you might say that a certain amount of espionage, kidnappings, plots, post-siege looting or co-operation can mean that other [SECRET] tokened metals and inorganics like steel can end up elsewhere. ((detailed somewhere on the devleopment plan that is in more detail than mentioned))
I remember far back Toady talking about knowledge systems near the beggining of when he was working upon libraries, and that scholars would embark upon putting their new contraptions of which there were only a set number of discoveries that could be made in the world into use in fortress mode as well as guarding knowledge they had obtained already, things being lost and taken by force accounted for. Discoveries do happen as momentous events hailing the writing of a new book, like subjects on toxicology for medicine, but they have no mechanical meaning other than being good reading.
- So to pipe up about some mentioned examples there's no feudal-cyberpunk gear-operated prosthetics (sourced from one of threetoe's stories, i believe short of the arm, migration, plots & religion has already delivered us there) or astrology tracking machines just yet. (i forget but its a named discovery subject)
Post by: Atkana on February 10, 2020, 04:20:26 am
Post by: feelotraveller on February 13, 2020, 08:14:55 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 13, 2020, 08:22:12 pm
Will the poor ability of dwarfs in making friends be tweaked before moving onto the Steam release?Work is going to happen in parallel. There are lots of issues which need to be fixed as part of Steam development arc. This, most likely being one of them. So....no....and yes, depending on what you mean.
Are we likely to see an interim release with fixes for stress/friendship and so on during Steam development, or are we going to have to wait until everything is done?
Post by: feelotraveller on February 13, 2020, 08:32:21 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 13, 2020, 08:44:20 pm
What I mean is if this issue will be addressed before moving on to work on the Steam release. I guess I left out the 'to work' but generally that would be understood as implied, if I had meant the release of the Steam version I would have said something like before releasing on Steam.Yes, and besides these crash bug quick fixes, Steam development is imminent (and will have started by the time fotf rolls around). But, this time, that doesn't actually matter as he's doing fixes in parallel.
Post by: feelotraveller on February 13, 2020, 09:02:22 pm
I'm asking specifically because this next couple of weeks is the window where it might get addressed before being swamped in the morass of the Steam related stuff. At that point stuff will naturally be driven by the other people working on that project who have other concerns that are unrelated to the friendship issues.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 13, 2020, 09:13:22 pm
Pretty sure Toady will read these messages before then, but happy to hear what ended up happening.Fixing up the game (somewhat) and addressing (some) long-time issues is Steam related stuff. Let's not forget that, it's not just a "let's add graphics" arc.
I'm asking specifically because this next couple of weeks is the window where it might get addressed before being swamped in the morass of the Steam related stuff. At that point stuff will naturally be driven by the other people working on that project who have other concerns that are unrelated to the friendship issues.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 14, 2020, 04:20:01 am
- Fix serious bugs (now).
- Get graphics going to avoid the artists getting health issues with their thumb joints from excessive twiddling.
- Make bug fixes for the current arc in parallel with doing Premium improvements of two kinds:
- a. Things that have to wait for Premium, such as the rest of graphics, and probably the UI overhaul with its associated rework of some things the UI presents (stockpiles, military, etc. are candidates). I wouldn't mind it being doled out piecemeal, allowing for feedback, but it might be hard to untangle the pieces from each other. You don't really want to reassign keys for the same functions multiple times, but you'd have to do that if you've updated one part, but not the one that would "donate" its key binding to the new one.
- b. Things that can be done piecemeal and released into the current arc. Needs balancing essentially has to be in this group, as it will probably have to be tweaked several times, requiring feedback to inform the adjustments of the next iteration.
Post by: feelotraveller on February 14, 2020, 08:26:05 pm
I wanted to know if a specific issue would be looked at before then. It is semi-traditional for Toady to make a few bug-fixes/adjustments not immediately related to the current release towards the end of a release cycle. And it seems that period is going to be shorter this time and indeed is already quickly passing us by.
I am very happy to see some work on the raid equipment list crash bug noted in the devlog. Needs have recently been asked about by Immortal-D on the previous page, and although the friendship stuff is arguably less important than those - I think so, at least - it seems like it could be quicker and less complicated to address. And we have been waiting years... the last 'window' where it might have been looked at was close to 2 years ago... If I was in a negative frame of mind I could think it would drop off the end of the list under the pressure of the steam release and still be problematic in a couple of decades. Mentioning it (again...) makes that a little less likely to happen.
Post by: DG on February 15, 2020, 02:28:40 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 15, 2020, 03:15:03 am
- Work 1-3 years
- Release the first of the arc
- frantic bug fixing
- less frantic bug fixing mixed with tweaking and some new stuff
- Repeat the previous point for something like ½-1½ year.
- Work 1-3 years (at which point any bug fixing is dropped: the development strategy could handle only a single active branch).
This is in the process of changing into parallel development where the current arc can be supported while the next one is developed. As far as I understand we're actually still in the frantic bug fixing period of the Villains arc, and I don't think Toady has any time over for actually starting on the Premium stuff just yet (a recent post indicated that was intended to start before the end of the month). As far as I understand, nothing non critical for the Villains arc will be done before the Premium arc graphics has been done (some of the bugs fixed aren't "critical", but they're part of the tail bug fixing, rather than tweaking/additions, etc.).
In essence, the tail of the Villains arc will be overlapped with the initial development phase of the Premium arc (while some of it is postponed to be merged into the tail of the Premium arc).
There's a lot of stuff that will remain on the table when the time's up for the Premium initial release. Some of it will probably be done in the tail, and some will probably be put off for another decade. I'd say needs and relations are sufficiently important to have to be addressed before the initial Premium release, although I wouldn't be surprised if it requires more tweaking along the way. Where the pressure resulting from the initial Premium release will lead remains to be seen, though.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 15, 2020, 02:56:16 pm
I ask just on account it threw me how often ruins are left behind rather than refilled up by experiments, though i imagine the villian themselves might be more single-minded about the end-goal to worry about the needs of the people they've made.
Post by: Miuramir on February 17, 2020, 02:19:59 pm
I remember far back Toady talking about knowledge systems near the beggining of when he was working upon libraries, and that scholars would embark upon putting their new contraptions of which there were only a set number of discoveries that could be made in the world into use in fortress mode as well as guarding knowledge they had obtained already, things being lost and taken by force accounted for. Discoveries do happen as momentous events hailing the writing of a new book, like subjects on toxicology for medicine, but they have no mechanical meaning other than being good reading.
- So to pipe up about some mentioned examples there's no feudal-cyberpunk gear-operated prosthetics (sourced from one of threetoe's stories, i believe short of the arm, migration, plots & religion has already delivered us there) or astrology tracking machines just yet. (i forget but its a named discovery subject)
One of the things that we may need in the Magic arc era is some idea of directed research. With procedurally-generated world origins, pantheons, and magic systems, the relative value and interest of various sorts of research will vary widely.
For example, the relative value of something like astronomy would be very different in a world where all magic is governed by the dance of the seven moons (the ascended seven dwarf-fathers), vs. a world vaguely like our own ("fixed" stars and a few distant planet-specks), vs. a world swimming through space on the stomach of a giant otter, vs. a world inside the core of a globular cluster where each star is a god, and they visibly move about over just a few days. In some settings, fairly esoteric (by our historical mundane standards) research may be essential to even have a civilization; it's fairly easy to come up with a whole set of worlds where advanced ritual knowledge would be a prerequisite for agriculture and/or cities existing.
Of course, there will typically need to be some random elements; even if everyone in "the establishment" is focusing on the stars, some bookkeeper tallying invention reports writes "On the Theory of Special Relatives" and leaps Dwarven social science ahead unexpectedly.
Post by: Nopenope on February 18, 2020, 04:15:49 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 18, 2020, 04:17:35 am
Could you clarify whether there are going to be intermittent bugfix releases during the Big Wait (or even the Steam Wait)?Yes. Big Wait periodic bug fix releases for major crashes was confirmed a long time ago before Steam was ever a thing.
(And Steam Wait intermittent bug fixes are confirmed in devblog latest release, top of the page).
Post by: sly on February 18, 2020, 02:02:25 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 18, 2020, 04:56:36 pm
apologies if this has been asked before, but are we ever going to see the option to generate more history *after* a game has been played in a world? for example, if I have a fortress that makes a really valuable artifact or wages some war, I would want to see how it impacts the world on a larger scale, over the years.Last mention of this was that it's really, really hard to pack everything back together into a state that you can restart worldgen at the kind of speed initial worldgen runs at. But not impossible and is something Toady wants to try one day. Don't expect anything soon though.
(Actual time passes in real-time of course though, the world is generating history as you play. So you can play fortresses and adventurers for many years and then go check how the world is doing in Legends).
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 18, 2020, 05:00:55 pm
apologies if this has been asked before, but are we ever going to see the option to generate more history *after* a game has been played in a world? for example, if I have a fortress that makes a really valuable artifact or wages some war, I would want to see how it impacts the world on a larger scale, over the years.It's a topic that's brought up regularly...
The big technical problem is that world gen, including history, uses simplified logic, and it's very hard to put the game back into that box once it's been opened without cutting away a lot of information that's been generated but doesn't match that format (or convert part of it to its corresponding simplified form, for that matter).
It is possible to run the world in its game play format without having any active part in it: this is what happens during the 2 week embark period, but as you may have noticed, it takes a lot longer than world gen does, so while it's possible to extend the period (I believe it's been done with DFHack manually, but not as a tool, by changing the end date), you'd have to let the game run in the background for days to get anywhere.
Shonai_Dweller answered while I wrote my post, so there's a significant overlap.
Post by: rian ashes on February 19, 2020, 01:07:43 pm
I have a question about Steam release.
As you, maybe, know, russian comminuty managed to localise Dwarf Fortress into russian languge.
May be you can inpliment other localisations as official? DF is great, but some time it's too hard to understand it, if you don't know English.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 19, 2020, 04:26:57 pm
Hello, Toady!Lime green text for questions to Toady.
I have a question about Steam release.
As you, maybe, know, russian comminuty managed to localise Dwarf Fortress into russian languge.
May be you can inpliment other localisations as official? DF is great, but some time it's too hard to understand it, if you don't know English.
Does it handle procedurally generated text perfectly? Does any game? That's not easy. Menus and other set text are easy enough but procedural text forming routines would need to be written from scratch.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 20, 2020, 02:55:11 am
Post by: IndigoFenix on February 20, 2020, 05:17:25 am
Post by: TheFlame52 on February 20, 2020, 05:18:00 pm
How do the new alliances work in worldgen? Leader personalities? Ethics? Civ values? The old factions of snatcher civ vs. thief civ vs. civ with both vs. civ with neither? Evil races vs. non-evil races?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 20, 2020, 05:21:36 pm
Does beekeeping make more trees and plants grow in your fortress, because of pollination? If not, then why do the deserts around fortresses bloom vigorously?Alliances:
How do the new alliances work in worldgen? Leader personalities? Ethics? Civ values? The old factions of snatcher civ vs. thief civ vs. civ with both vs. civ with neither? Evil races vs. non-evil races?
Everybody Vs KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED (gobbos, necros in vanilla). Fairly sure the reverse isn't true though (so no goblin civilizations joining forces).
Bees:
Pretty sure this happens regardless of beekeeping. As to why... ::)
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 21, 2020, 05:08:47 am
If the answer is yes, I guess it would give some people who are opposed to that a chance to speak up against it and explain why...
I've found the size to be very restrictive when making DFHack scripts with a UI (which isn't a good argument for increasing the size in itself), and assume that would apply to Toady and Threetoe as well (which obviously would be relevant).
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 21, 2020, 05:29:37 am
Alliances:
Everybody Vs KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED (gobbos, necros in vanilla). Fairly sure the reverse isn't true though (so no goblin civilizations joining forces).
Id lean towards its bugged that they can't ally with same-entity civs, all the elves, dwarves and humans at a time are allied through top leader positions rather than site-to-site, or maybe just clowns dont like working with each other so never extend a hand out to join forces when there is plainly a threat from necromancers or a big-ball of elves/dwarves/humans threatening to wipe them out.
- Its sad, because it'd actually lead to much bigger siege forces sooner, though its also quite weird how alliances work at the minute because they pull dwarves into wars all over the place and sometimes elves attack human allies a lot/vice versa and neither party (or dwarves grudgingly picking sides) seems able to say that the alliance is really not worth their time anymore.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 21, 2020, 05:36:05 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 21, 2020, 05:53:56 am
Kill_neutral:required implies they kill members of other goblin civs, being neutral, so wouldn't make alliances. Nothing Toady ever said about alliances implied that goblin civs were meant to gang up with other goblin civs or necros against the threat of Elvish invasion. So, not bugged, just kind of a limited system right now.
In modded conditions with said addition of races also friendly to KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED in seperate entities i've observed them to have alliances this way, but your point is still a perfectly valid explanation. Necros don't even have any openly defined code either to really comment on whether them allying/rivalling their apprentices, immortality promised upstarts/slab-readers would take anything further beyond personal leader relationships would constitute them allying with other forces, like mummies for instance.
Post by: iceball3 on February 22, 2020, 08:05:01 am
Considering the profession skill "geographer", will access to map data (except for legends) be transitioned from "basic UI function" to "item based, and dependent on available/memorized maps", or will geography only have abstract implications ingame (such as enabling site/civ level capabilities for entities in a "not involving and thusly not lowering player map UI access." sort of way?
For the various profession skills, IE chemist, mathematician, etc, are there considerations for targeting the whole bodies of knowledge in a larger update arc, or is the plan to give them functions going to be "as we go along" for the most part?
Will magic discovery, research, acquisition, et cetera utilize the topics and skills system, or will magic and it's knowledge be largely segregated from worldly knowledge and study as of the myth-magic arc plans, or will any considerations surrounding that come much later?
Apologies if I've asked one of these questions before in some measure, i do remember being interested in it all some few years ago.
Post by: therahedwig on February 24, 2020, 06:32:54 am
I mean, the dev page does mention maps for adventurers, and what is a boats arc without treasure maps, and I guess that much like with books there should be a proper industry for creating these maps, but there hasn't been anything said about it. Similarly, the various magic types mentioned do have types that interrelate with the mundane topics, like astronomy (planets), chemistry(potions), mathematics(ritual diagrams), etc, but there hasn't been much said about it either.
Post by: Silverwing235 on February 24, 2020, 07:12:37 am
Nah, I've been wondering about these kinds of things too, but all that was said was that at some point in the future topics would actually affect the capabilities of a civ.
I mean, the dev page does mention maps for adventurers, and what is a boats arc without treasure maps, and I guess that much like with books there should be a proper industry for creating these maps, but there hasn't been anything said about it. Similarly, the various magic types mentioned do have types that interrelate with the mundane topics, like astronomy (planets), alchemy(potions), mathematics(ritual diagrams), etc, but there hasn't been much said about it either.
FTFY.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 24, 2020, 07:21:19 am
Given the kind of workloads you experience during your Arc workloads (and interim projects like getting army arc prepped before steam release) is it likely if you're looking at fortifications, you'll be putting some time aside to make sure other constructions are also coherent?
Special mention to glass aquariums which can't hold large roaming fish like caught whales & sharks that's been on the bug tracker for ages (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1590). Though water projects have been a erm... controversial; fishing for whales using cage traps & using pit zones to artificially air-drown and beach them is very profitable for dwarf fortresses who can engineer it and miscallenously very visually appealing and accomplishing to hold exotic sea creatures for dwarves to gawk at as trophies within aquariums, or deployed to moats & ponds in defence.
- Just to put to the side, i have historically checked this issue through closed testing conditions before and aquariums are the only type of cage tame underswim and amphibious animals can be assigned to, to dispel the notion they are for vermin only (which works correctly).
Post by: Strik3r on February 24, 2020, 04:03:33 pm
First that.
The new relationship stuff added in .47(divorces, affairs, etc.) are influenced by personality/civ values right? If so, what personality/civ values significantly affect that stuff happening or not happening? Also i assume that the ORIENTATION token is taken into account, so for example if an intelligent creature has it with values such as 0:0:1, the creature can never have an affair, since the creature would have no interest in a non-committed relationship?
Now for the steam stuff (i feel like this stuff probably has been answered before):
Since i presume you want to have Steam Workshop integration, does that mean we'll be getting something like mod-loading from folders? Since i can't imagine Workshop would work well with the current mod installation method of "Drop stuff into the raw/objects folder and hope it works".
In terms of the graphics stuff, can you give a rough outline of what new graphical features tileset authors can expect from the version coinciding with the Steam release?
Post by: ZM5 on February 25, 2020, 09:08:54 am
Got a question myself - what defines a creature as an experiment? By that I mean, the mutants created from the "horrible experiments" event type, with names like "Hand of Dastot" or "Eye of Urist". I've noticed [NIGHT_CREATURE_NIGHTMARE] is a token, but I didn't see something like [NIGHT_CREATURE_EXPERIMENT] or [NIGHT_CREATURE_MUTANT].
Post by: jecowa on February 25, 2020, 11:45:00 pm
Post by: IndigoFenix on February 26, 2020, 02:11:53 am
The orientation token doesn't seem to affect affairs and the like from what I've seen in my worlds - got most civilized creatures set to be only interested in commited relationships, yet I still see people becoming lovers with someone while already married to someone else.
Did you try modifying LUST_PROPENSITY? Just a guess.
Post by: squamous on February 26, 2020, 04:11:06 am
1. Is it possible to create a custom experimental creature using non-procedurally generated interactions? The living night-creature type, not the ghoul type. I've looked into the raw examples but unless it's BOGEYMAN_POLYMORPH and I just don't understand how it works I'm not sure how I'd go about doing that.
2. How exactly is fear calculated? I've been running around in adventure mode and it seems that even hearthpeople and mercenaries will run away from larger monsters even if they're something my party could defeat? I guess it's not that important given I can control them manually now but I'm curious what factors go into threat assessment if there's any besides size and the discipline skill.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 26, 2020, 05:35:13 am
The new aquifers are still confusing. The pre embark info displays Light (new trickle ones), Heavy (old, open pipe ones), and the odd "Varied" description, which, if I understand it correctly doesn't exist as an actual discreet aquifer variant. I've seen increasing the embark rectangle from one to two tiles covering one Light and one Heavy tile has resulted in "Varied", which makes sense, but there's also areas where single tile embarks are displayed as "Varied", which I guess could result from one Light layer and one Heavy layer, or from two biomes being present on the same single tile embark, with different kinds of aquifers on each part.
1. What is DF's definition of a "Varied" aquifer?
2. How does DF determine what type of aquifer(s) a tile will have (of interest to tool makers and world designers)?
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 26, 2020, 07:51:30 am
The orientation token doesn't seem to affect affairs and the like from what I've seen in my worlds - got most civilized creatures set to be only interested in commited relationships, yet I still see people becoming lovers with someone while already married to someone else.
Did you try modifying LUST_PROPENSITY? Just a guess.
Id say a mix of love and lust propensity, I have a dwarf who drifts between relationships through their job as a Tavern keeper and copious amounts of alcohol being in contact with very open and very drunk dwarves a lot. Though for the more conservative players its a pity there's no additional controls on a creature or entity level to encourage/discourage relationship couplings.
Post by: ZM5 on February 26, 2020, 09:00:12 am
I still have to try the lust/love propensity edits out a bit more.The orientation token doesn't seem to affect affairs and the like from what I've seen in my worlds - got most civilized creatures set to be only interested in commited relationships, yet I still see people becoming lovers with someone while already married to someone else.
Did you try modifying LUST_PROPENSITY? Just a guess.
Id say a mix of love and lust propensity, I have a dwarf who drifts between relationships through their job as a Tavern keeper and copious amounts of alcohol being in contact with very open and very drunk dwarves a lot. Though for the more conservative players its a pity there's no additional controls on a creature or entity level to encourage/discourage relationship couplings.
Eh, despite being fairly conservative myself I don't have much of an issue with cheating and the like being depicted since its just one of those bad things that happens regardless - my issue in this regard is with modded races that are known for being loyal still cheating, divorcing and having children out of wedlock at the same rates as races that don't care much for loyalty or love (I admittedly still don't entirely understand why loyalty is only a civ value, rather than also being a personality trait, but I digress) - comes across as jarring, to say the least.
Post by: feelotraveller on February 26, 2020, 12:32:45 pm
Post by: Beag on February 28, 2020, 03:04:47 pm
1. Will scars appear on creatures graphically and if so in the proper places? On a similar note will dismembered creature's sprites properly represent their lack of certain limbs?
2. With the main races at least(dwarves, humans, goblins and elves) there is a lot of physical description detail generated- how much of that will be represented on the sprite?
3. When it comes to generated races like escaped necromancer experiments will each generated combination have it's own sprite or will you generalize a sprite for escaped necromancer experiments in general?
4. When the myth and magic update finally comes around will magical corruption be represented on a creature's sprite? If so how detailed would the visual representation of the progression of this corruption be(referencing an old threetoe's story the dwarf who was cursed by elves slowly turned into a tree person starting with her hair)?
Post by: FrankVill on February 28, 2020, 03:26:16 pm
1) How does DF interpret the species "eagle man"?
2) At the time of having children, would they lay eggs or become pregnant?
3) Could there be different combinations (60% human, 40% eagle) for each created world? (I have mentioned the eagle man so far only as an example).
4) Are mythological creatures (such as dragons, forgotten beasts ...) somehow included in the animal hierarchy?
Post by: Bumber on February 28, 2020, 03:57:42 pm
1) How does DF interpret the species "eagle man"?
2) At the time of having children, would they lay eggs or become pregnant?
1) A humanoid body covered in feathers with an eagle's head, 2 arms, 2 legs (with talons on the feet,) and 2 wings.
2) They lay eggs.
Post by: Strik3r on February 28, 2020, 04:14:20 pm
Whereas, within the animal kingdom, a dwarf is a mammal and a bird is an oviparous being ...
1) How does DF interpret the species "eagle man"?
2) At the time of having children, would they lay eggs or become pregnant?
3) Could there be different combinations (60% human, 40% eagle) for each created world? (I have mentioned the eagle man so far only as an example).
4) Are mythological creatures (such as dragons, forgotten beasts ...) somehow included in the animal hierarchy?
1,2,3 :Animalmen aren't really hybrids between an animal and a human but rather anthropomorphized(wow that's a mouthful, huh?) animals. so all the biological characteristics that apply to their mundane counterparts also apply to the animalmen variants, in addition to being "intelligent" and "humanoid".
Post by: iceball3 on February 28, 2020, 08:19:09 pm
Code: [Select]
[SHEAR_YIELD:600000] used cotton
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:600000] used cottonDo you remember where you sourced these numbers? The only other materials defined in the raws that match these characteristics at first pale are things like steel and adamantine, and plant thread has precipitously low attributes in every other characteristic.Is it a typo in the form of an extra 0, perhaps? I can imagine it might be due to the fact that every [SOFT] armor present in the game also has [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD] attached, which reduces both the values to a much more sane (if a bit meager) cap, which lends me to believe that those values were the intended ones for cloth materials.
I've mainly been mulling over this because I've had a hard time finding good sources concerning fabric resistance on the internet myself, and I've been trying to make a neat little mod to add in "gambesons" as armor types, but noticed that they were seriously over performing against all edged weapons if they were allowed to use the thread templates' default values.
Post by: voliol on February 29, 2020, 04:48:14 pm
4) Are mythological creatures (such as dragons, forgotten beasts ...) somehow included in the animal hierarchy?
Good question. Current Dwarf Fortress doesn’t really have any notion of what an animal is; it does have the [MUNDANE] creature token marking RL creatures, but it only affects the age name. By that merit dragons etc. are not animals, and humans are.
Looking forwards though, some implementation of it is clearly planned. After all, the mythgen demos had ”the animals” as an existing actor, distinct from primordial forces and the intelligent races. Considering the supposed variability of the mythgen system it would be nice seeing some worlds where certain ”mythological beings” e.g. dragons were considered a subcategory of animals. I don’t think they would always be, though.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 29, 2020, 05:00:09 pm
4) Are mythological creatures (such as dragons, forgotten beasts ...) somehow included in the animal hierarchy?
Good question. Current Dwarf Fortress doesn’t really have any notion of what an animal is; it does have the [MUNDANE] creature token marking RL creatures, but it only affects the age name. By that merit dragons etc. are not animals, and humans are.
Looking forwards though, some implementation of it is clearly planned. After all, the mythgen demos had ”the animals” as an existing actor, distinct from primordial forces and the intelligent races. Considering the supposed variability of the mythgen system it would be nice seeing some worlds where certain ”mythological beings” e.g. dragons were considered a subcategory of animals. I don’t think they would always be, though.
Dragons are also [FANCIFUL] along with a handful of other creatures, in which without present examples to speak about or never existing in history they're known and distinct. The way the Mythological generator could possibly generate these can feasibly be different to mundane creatures with special mentions like a god taking careful attention in making them, or bronze collossi (not a animal but a animated being) being discarded nails used to forge the world granted life, or forgotten weapons of war for a heavenly battle in a alternative but still credible genesis story.
Stretch of your imagination kind of stuff alongside the kind of scenarios Toady might add.
- Dragons particularly are subject to Toady's interests about adding subspecies with different abilities/looks/personalities to properly emulate fantasy conventions, with a bit of random generation or prefixture
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 01, 2020, 05:00:27 am
"If your dispatched Militia dwarves from fortress mode are searching for artifacts in a non-hostile way asking for directions & locations town to town like a adventuring group, and are eventually privy to the known location of it, is it currently implemented into the game to have them use their own intrigue/schemer skill (and related social skills) to corrupt a local into giving it to them without a fight?"
Without the dungeon keeper doing much to actually train schemer skill its one of those things you can get at embark but not do very much with. I had actually entertained retiring criminally/villanous adventuerers on my site to fufill the role if one of the starting seven eventually shuffled the mortal coil with their skillset or set off on a endless quest never to be seen again; in order to keep my fortress well connected.
Post by: Prismatic on March 01, 2020, 11:37:34 am
Post by: Toady One on March 02, 2020, 01:10:09 am
Quote
Quote from: ZM5Hate to ask another question so soon after the last one, but is there a token for summoning a creature onto a specific tile rather than randomly? Been trying with CONTEXT_LOCATION and CONTEXT_CREATURE_OR_LOCATION but it always seems to pop the summon onto the caster's tile - not sure if I'm setting things up correctly or if thats a current limitation.
EDIT: Before I forget - whats the token that marks a creature as a necromancer experiment? I don't think I've seen it in extracted raws yet.Quote from: pikachu17I_EFFECT:CREATE_ITEM can't be used on CONTEXT_LOCATION, just CONTEXT_CREATURE, and even on creatures, it only creates the item at their feet, not in their hands. Is there a reason for this beyond you just didn't around to doing it?Quote from: ZM5Got a question myself - what defines a creature as an experiment? By that I mean, the mutants created from the "horrible experiments" event type, with names like "Hand of Dastot" or "Eye of Urist". I've noticed [NIGHT_CREATURE_NIGHTMARE] is a token, but I didn't see something like [NIGHT_CREATURE_EXPERIMENT] or [NIGHT_CREATURE_MUTANT].
Targeting is in a dire state and will have to wait for the magic release to be more than a taped-together mess. Experiments just use NIGHT_CREATURE, as a way of keeping them alive but still immune to mindless undead attack and hopefully further experiment if I remembered that part.
Quote from: Molay
for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.
Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy, unless they're being attacked in melee.
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083982#msg8083982
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8084307#msg8084307
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8084311#msg8084311
Yeah, we're mostly not going to get a chance to get to any of this before the army/siege changes at the earliest. There is some small chance of the most annoying parts making the Steam/itch tweak list, but that is a very large plate.
Quote from: Warlord255
Summoning and conjuration are insane godsends, but will we see any adjustments before the Big Wait?
We might see something, but most of the magic stuff will indeed have to wait for the magic release. I can't easily change the targeting system, as mentioned above, for instance. But easier stuff like e.g. adding classes to creature summons is possible.
Quote from: JesterHell696
Do you think Battlefield friendships fit adventure mode party dynamics or is the relationship between the members of a long term adventurer party its own unique thing?
I personally haven't found a case in legends yet but do people seek revenge on the behalf of family, friends and lovers or do they only avenge themselves?
I think for certain parties, it would make sense to further specify the party dynamic that way. Obviously for things like a traveling musician group it might be less common. As with the rep stuff in general, giving the relationship multiple variables is good.
I don't think you'll see that in legends mode - without some difficult extra work, it'll be hard on the CPU to have them graph crawling too much. They do in some limited ways, but I don't think it comes up in the legends plot. Once you are out in play with fewer thoughts being had, they can suddenly think out a few steps (hence some of the weird cascade issues.)
Quote from: FAA
Item materials - as there are seemingly no restrictions on item materials, the game creates immersion-breaking gold, silver or tetrahedrite barrels in taverns, and every table/chair is made of different material. Even kobold forts have golden tables, even though there is no other loot to speak of - they lack weapons and are semi-naked. Do you plan to restrict materials used for things like chairs or tables to materials that are appropriate, and make them more uniform?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8084489#msg8084489
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8084588#msg8084588
Quote from: Untrustedlife
The new necromancer towers are awesome looking.Thank you.
Any plans to make mummies build different looking towers?
They live in the tombs built by the parent civ, and I'm not sure in general when we'll get to an architecture rewrite, other than that being part of what the map rewrite is supposed to support more easily.
Quote from: pikachu17
Why don't statues in temples seem to curse me when I topple them anymore? Have you removed that for some reasom?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8084901#msg8084901
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8084913#msg8084913
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8084914#msg8084914
Quote from: IncompetentFortressMaker
I've noticed that, at least on my end, "yawn" and "baby" are both the same word in Dwarven: åm. Is this intended?
Ha ha, I don't recall setting it up that way. That word generator I used has a collision detector as well, so additional, it is kind of baffling!
Quote from: Fatace
Will we get a more better representation on how the Dark Fortress Civs Position system works? Modding wise, it seems to have become close to being unplayable as an idea for a "All Civs playable" type mods. With either Custom Offical positions, or newly created ones, causing crashes half the time, or every time. It seems that the new custom positions act like divine metals... They are either made during world gen or not.. and if they are, they seem to stop certain responsibilities being used with player custom positions, causing a further crash.
Will this be looked into with a better way of managing these positions for modders?
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8085543#msg8085543
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8085551#msg8085551
Fatace (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8085669#msg8085669
Ah, weirdness related to true-name demon vaults (whether you had them or not.) And chat-worthy filled the positions in prehistory, causing the issue during the check. I'll have to roll it out with the first parallel fix patch.
Quote from: Flying Teasets
I'm guessing FIRE_SAFETY nobles will be more building inspector than firefighter; am I correct?
Will adding any of the new tokens to SITE and AS_NEEDED positions be a bad idea?
Yeah, that's right. I don't think there will be problems if you add them to mods, but I'm also not sure if the game checks for redundancies in these cases... it does in others, so I hope so.
Quote from: pikachu17
Is there a way to make summoning not summon or only summon creatures of a specific creature class? If not, why not?
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8086568#msg8086568
Quote from: boxxu
I've been generating a lot of worlds in the new version, and I've been noticing that Dwarven civilizations are having a really hard time at sticking around,especially in longer histories. The new digging too deep and greedily events, Powerful necromancers and other civs having infinite lifespans seems to be really taking a toll. Are there any plans to buff dwarfs during world gen? Perhaps unique dwarven events that are positive?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8086557#msg8086557
I think that catastrophes were reduced significantly since this question was asked, which hopefully helps a bit. Necromancers are hard on everybody, and probably eventually 'win' every world in which they exist in the fullness of time. That'll require a supernatural fix most likely - even if the first failed necromancer causes a huge cultural change making it harder for them to rise (doesn't yet), they'll still eventually win.
Quote from: AliceRed
The new necromancer minions with magic abilities had me wondering - do you think in the future you might add a more magical alternative to the FBs, with crazier/more unnatural appearances like, say, a wheel covered in eyes like some accounts of biblical angels, with more magic based instead of biology based powers? Likewise, do you think depending on how magic is generated per world, that Demons could become even more of a threat - like, say, the classic wall strategies becoming useless due to Demons sometimes having the ability to teleport or become intangible? Just this small taste of magic is making me so giddy for the future!
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8086671#msg8086671
We started from animals since it is easier to handle both technical body definitions and to have people's imagination piggyback on real-world animals, but we're hoping to go beyond this. And yeah, I think magic will lead to new terrors, ha ha. Although, really, we're likely get to some antidote to walls before we even start magic, with the improved sieges.
Quote from: pikachu17
Is USAGE_HINT:MAJOR_BLESSING a thing, and if so, how can you make one happen to your adventurer?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8086805#msg8086805
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8087134#msg8087134
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8087208#msg8087208
Ha ha, MAJOR_CURSE occurs 13 times in the code, and was the first usage hint added. MAJOR_BLESSING does not occur. Poor dwarves.
Quote from: Inarius
Now that people can open the circus, will wee see adamantine artifacts during w.g ?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8087521#msg8087521
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8087802#msg8087802
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8088068#msg8088068
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8088472#msg8088472
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8088527#msg8088527
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8092545#msg8092545
It's certainly more reasonable now to give them a little adamantine as a treat before hitting them with the end of civilization, but people are correct that I did not get there. Dwarves are the only entity with strand extractor, so I wouldn't worry about the goblins getting it on a first pass, though the musings in the comments are all valid. With our current situation, it's hard to say that we'll get there rather than to the overall splorting of everything with varied adamantine and non-adamantine myths. We're not tied to the idea of keeping it, but a traditional setting should also be easy to concoct - even in that situation, adamantine would likely have different setups, and likely be more interesting all around as a top candidate for magical properties. And that would get us naturally to the comments aligning with scholar dwarves and a thousand years of adamantine forge-labs and so forth. Or dwarves just holding it and meditating or something. Hopefully the computer is properly respectful.
Quote from: iceball3
I just checked out the ingame manual again for once in a long while, and just noticed again the cool symbols you've got set and unused for magical items.
Will you still be using these particular symbols once magical items are properly introduced?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8087682#msg8087682
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8087717#msg8087717
Ha ha, yeah, we're going to be pretty far gone into graphics world by that point, so it's impossible to say what item modifiers will end up being. It was cool when we had it! There was a brief moment in DF history where armor had hair, swords whistled and elf arrows exploded wooden spikes inside of people. Someday we'll get back there. It's scheduled!
Quote from: IndigoFenix
The new interaction options offer up many fun possibilities for magical secrets and modding in "high fantasy" worlds, but as far as I can tell, they still seem to be heavily tied to necromancer towers. I've tried adding teachable, researchable secrets that can be bestowed with minor/medium blessings in the hope that this would result in creatures being taught the secrets during worldgen and then spread them around by writing books or taking apprentices, but this doesn't seem to work; in the rare instance that someone acquires a non-necromancy secret from a slab, they rarely if ever write books or take apprentices, so the secret dies with them. Is there any way of "seeding" the world with modded secrets in such a way that they will be spread around reliably in worldgen, without making them variants of necromancy? And if not, are there any plans of making one before the next Big Wait?
I'm not sure - the one angle I can think of is creatures with spheres. They should get the secret, but I'm not sure how you can sufficiently civilize them other than them being demons, and people don't seem to seek out death demons to be necromantic masters for some reason. So it might not work. No plans before the Big Wait. The Big Wait is magic.
Quote
Quote from: Immortal-DLittle while back, ThreeToe posted *We need your help with game ending stress*. Has the feedback there been helpful at all? Have you been able to investigate, if not actually work on, the root problems in the code of Dwarven psyche?Quote from: feelotravellerWill the poor ability of dwarfs in making friends be tweaked before moving onto the Steam release?Quote from: Shonai_DwellerAre we likely to see an interim release with fixes for stress/friendship and so on during Steam development, or are we going to have to wait until everything is done?
Yeah, the thread has been great. We have about twenty angles to work with there, and some of them are straightforward enough that they should come up in the parallel releases rather than with the Steam/itch release. I haven't run any numeric tests yet, so I'm not going to pin it on anything, but between siege bodies and rain and food and cave adaptation etc. there is a lot to check and change. The needs discourse is fascinating since it doesn't seem(?) to be a numeric stress problem, but it is a presentation problem, so we'll still need to address it. The changes made to friendship forming and vulnerable dwarves in the recent 47s is just the start.
Quote from: therahedwig
Looking through legends, I see a lot of histfigs failing at getting assets and eventually succeeding. How do histfigs gain the relevant skills in worldgen? Is it abstracted by them just gaining a lot more experience for each relevant action they take compared to the equivalent an adventurer or dwarf would need to do? Or do histfigs actually have to indicate they're practicing this skill?
I don't understand 'indicate' here. Do you mean the exact die rolls and bonuses and such? That part depends on the roll. For the intrigue stuff, if I recall, some of the actions could be done in parallel and some couldn't. The interrogations for instance, work very differently, while the asset gaining is very similar. It definitely isn't all piped through the same function - the situations are just too different to do that cleanly, as the historical figures don't have bodies or minds in the same way as loaded on-screen critters do.
Quote from: AliceRed
I noticed while obsessively pouring over your old Mythgen pictures that there's a few "secret" and "destroyed" cities as separate pips on the mythgen. If it's not too much of a problem, do you think you could explain how you envision these pips ideally manifesting via worldgen - could we say, find the lost ruins of an ancient mythgen era civilization, or could the hidden cities lead to hidden underground or jungle-bound societies? I'm curious how you envision such things!
Yeah, exactly. We haven't planned it through in detail at this point, so I don't have much to add, but broadly speaking, a site could be destroyed, but findable (not unlike current ruins, but more mythic and sometimes more hidden), or it can be alive but separated and require exploration or one of the new forms of travel/magic to locate, and would likely be closely related to whatever its mythologically circumstances are. As the world generator moves from myths to location-based year-by-year history, it would need to decide which places need locations and which can still be mushy. So some ruins might be uncovered historically, and others might still be waiting. Presumably uncovering the wrong ruin could lead to additional ruins being formed. The still-living secret cities are probably more interesting here - are they in stasis or not? If they move beyond their mythical state, there would ideally be some surfaced history for that. It wouldn't surprise me though, running with the releases theme of change, if a hidden city could return somehow in the middle of history and change its course in whatever way. Not that we know what we are getting to first, ha ha ha.
Quote from: Atkana
Will SUMMON_UNIT interaction effects be getting special support for applying syndromes to the summoned creatures, like how the ANIMATE effect has? The new feature is really cool for modding, but the lack of that limits its potential
By the time we get through to the magic changes, I'm not sure if it'll work the same way in general - improvements to targeting could allow, for instance, the summoned unit to be a new target and then the syndrome or anything else could be applied without it having to be a specific element of the unit effect.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Since necromancers/mummies are active conquerers with their own living ensemble of people-things whether they're intentional or failed, have you effectively surpassed your old development log targets around 'haunted hamlet' type abodes populated by peoples of some description or are they still on hold for a better time to address?
I ask just on account it threw me how often ruins are left behind rather than refilled up by experiments, though i imagine the villian themselves might be more single-minded about the end-goal to worry about the needs of the people they've made.
Ah, we definitely haven't gotten there yet. A more folk tale/horror movie aspect is what we are going for there, rather than world-conquering armies of the dead. Yeah, the necros are definitely very sloppy about site maintenance and don't really care about holding any gains they've made. They'd be better if they sometimes focused on their new sites and appropriately creepified them on an ongoing basis.
Quote from: Nopenope
Could you clarify whether there are going to be intermittent bugfix releases during the Big Wait (or even the Steam Wait)?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8092789#msg8092789
Quote from: sly
are we ever going to see the option to generate more history *after* a game has been played in a world?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8093052#msg8093052
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8093055#msg8093055
Post by: Toady One on March 02, 2020, 01:10:26 am
Quote from: rian ashes
I have a question about Steam release.
As you, maybe, know, russian comminuty managed to localise Dwarf Fortress into russian languge.
May be you can inpliment other localisations as official? DF is great, but some time it's too hard to understand it, if you don't know English.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8093536#msg8093536
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8093826#msg8093826
IndigoFenix: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8093875#msg8093875
It's not possible for me to do in our current situation, and not having open source makes it hard for anybody to do well (I haven't seen and wouldn't understand the Russian translation, so I'm not sure how well it works.) It's something that would definitely be cool if we could ever figure out a way to do it. I've never localized a project, so have no idea what any of the standards are -- certainly menus are doable in some sense, though I wouldn't personally know how to get the right glyphs mapped onto the screen or what the right format is there. Our fonts have never worked well, but even without that, manually setting up the right unicode subsets maybe. As people point out, the procedural aspect is the hardest part, and likely can't be done perfectly while retaining the data structures since grammar works differently for everybody. Probably couldn't get that right enough for the official Steam/itch version, but maybe leaving out the procedure stuff would be satisfactory for people that just want to try.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Does beekeeping make more trees and plants grow in your fortress, because of pollination? If not, then why do the deserts around fortresses bloom vigorously?
How do the new alliances work in worldgen? Leader personalities? Ethics? Civ values? The old factions of snatcher civ vs. thief civ vs. civ with both vs. civ with neither? Evil races vs. non-evil races?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8094195#msg8094195
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8094409#msg8094409
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8094411#msg8094411
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8094418#msg8094418
Nothing happens with the beekeeping. If the plants look different near a fort, it's likely just because time has been passing there and the local tiles have gotten out of whack with the rest of the world.
There wasn't much time to do anything interesting with alliances. I think the comments have everything relevant.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Suggestiony: Have you considered increasing the minimum DF screen size (or possibly a "recommended" one, with a minimum one still functioning, but being awkward) for the Premium version in order to get more room for commands (and possibly info/labels) as part of the UI rework?
If the answer is yes, I guess it would give some people who are opposed to that a chance to speak up against it and explain why...
I've found the size to be very restrictive when making DFHack scripts with a UI (which isn't a good argument for increasing the size in itself), and assume that would apply to Toady and Threetoe as well (which obviously would be relevant).
Ah, for the new version we are definitely not going with the traditional 80x25 ha ha ha. People seem to like fullscreen games, and almost all the Steam games I've played default that way without even asking (options of course), but no decisions have been made. But given the 32x32 size of the tiles, 80x25 probably is both too large and too small, depending on monitor. It'll likely have to be dynamic. And the interface will have a different resolution than the play area (if it ends up with a tile grid at all), further complicating matters.
Quote from: iceball3
Considering the profession skill "geographer", will access to map data (except for legends) be transitioned from "basic UI function" to "item based, and dependent on available/memorized maps", or will geography only have abstract implications ingame (such as enabling site/civ level capabilities for entities in a "not involving and thusly not lowering player map UI access." sort of way?
For the various profession skills, IE chemist, mathematician, etc, are there considerations for targeting the whole bodies of knowledge in a larger update arc, or is the plan to give them functions going to be "as we go along" for the most part?
Will magic discovery, research, acquisition, et cetera utilize the topics and skills system, or will magic and it's knowledge be largely segregated from worldly knowledge and study as of the myth-magic arc plans, or will any considerations surrounding that come much later?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8095885#msg8095885
Yeah, it's just too far away for us to have concrete plans. The potential is obviously there for all sorts of things, which is part of why all that stuff is in there. We don't have any arcs planned past the Big Wait and the following laws/embark/etc. arc (which needs a better name.) So hard to say whether it'll be piece meal or part of a larger push.
The magic angle has been on my mind a bit, regarding the existing scholar stuff, but I don't know yet whether we'll really try to pull some of the existing stuff in. It's definitely doable. Even the mathematical discoveries could lead to correspondending advances in magic, without a huge burden in real-world research. Dusting off my chemistry is more of a burden, ha ha.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Given the kind of workloads you experience during your Arc workloads (and interim projects like getting army arc prepped before steam release) is it likely if you're looking at fortifications, you'll be putting some time aside to make sure other constructions are also coherent?
Special mention to glass aquariums which can't hold large roaming fish like caught whales & sharks that's been on the bug tracker for ages. Though water projects have been a erm... controversial; fishing for whales using cage traps & using pit zones to artificially air-drown and beach them is very profitable for dwarf fortresses who can engineer it and miscallenously very visually appealing and accomplishing to hold exotic sea creatures for dwarves to gawk at as trophies within aquariums, or deployed to moats & ponds in defence.
We're going to do what we can, in the time we have. Both of those things are mushy, so it's really hard to say. People falling to their deaths are worse than dead fish, but dead fish are also bad. The categories don't really overlap though.
Quote from: Strik3r
With the Steam release on the way i've got some questions regarding the modding capabilities and also that one question i missed getting into the last FotF.
First that.
The new relationship stuff added in .47(divorces, affairs, etc.) are influenced by personality/civ values right? If so, what personality/civ values significantly affect that stuff happening or not happening? Also i assume that the ORIENTATION token is taken into account, so for example if an intelligent creature has it with values such as 0:0:1, the creature can never have an affair, since the creature would have no interest in a non-committed relationship?
Now for the steam stuff (i feel like this stuff probably has been answered before):
Since i presume you want to have Steam Workshop integration, does that mean we'll be getting something like mod-loading from folders? Since i can't imagine Workshop would work well with the current mod installation method of "Drop stuff into the raw/objects folder and hope it works".
In terms of the graphics stuff, can you give a rough outline of what new graphical features tileset authors can expect from the version coinciding with the Steam release?
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8096377#msg8096377
Sure, it does an orientation check, in terms of whether a pairing is desired. Should anyway! This doesn't increase pairing frequency aside from the existence of matches. Lust propensity does all of that. For the rest, I think it just checks everything to see how closely aligned they are, and significant personality changes can disrupt a pairing which is working. But I don't think there are facets that affect it otherwise. Ah, gregarious does, in a sense, since that affects the chance that people chat at all.
Mod-loaded: Something, yeah. I need to look at their specs, as that'll determine a lot. But the current situation where mods ride along with saves will almost certainly not be feasible.
Rough outline of graphical features: Nope! I really need to get some code up first and see what initial walls we hit. We want to have a ton of new stuff, but if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, on a case-by-case basis. Can't really predict how it'll shake out for a given feature sometimes.
Quote from: jecowa
Rumor is that the first ARM MacBook is coming out first half of 2021. Do you think ARM Macs will ever get builds of Dwarf Fortress?
We haven't done anything up to this point - maintaining our current ports, such as we have, has obviously been about as much as we can do. I'm not sure what the future holds in terms of circumstances being more favorable. I certainly don't have the time or expertise to manage it myself, but there could be options. And choosing between other ports or managing basic localizations, say, would be something that needs to be thought about, if we have more resources. But who knows what'll happen.
Quote from: squamous
1. Is it possible to create a custom experimental creature using non-procedurally generated interactions? The living night-creature type, not the ghoul type. I've looked into the raw examples but unless it's BOGEYMAN_POLYMORPH and I just don't understand how it works I'm not sure how I'd go about doing that.
2. How exactly is fear calculated? I've been running around in adventure mode and it seems that even hearthpeople and mercenaries will run away from larger monsters even if they're something my party could defeat? I guess it's not that important given I can control them manually now but I'm curious what factors go into threat assessment if there's any besides size and the discipline skill.
1. NIGHT_CREATURE is a tag now that should hopefully work without being too strange.
2. Yeah, you are definitely noticing a defect. Everybody relevant in a fight feels terror (ie, not a ghost, not berserk, etc.), but the amount of terror is moderated by fearlessness and by the opposed strength of the sides. But the strength calculation isn't great, and larger beings do get a bit of an advantage there. It looks like the equipment/skill calc here is especially bad or even not happening at all - even the off-screen fights during raids do better equipment checks (which is good in a way, since it actually impacts the outcome there.) Should certainly be improved to better account for party equipment/skill/rep, and enemy equipment/rep at least, if not skill once you test it.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
The new aquifers are still confusing. The pre embark info displays Light (new trickle ones), Heavy (old, open pipe ones), and the odd "Varied" description, which, if I understand it correctly doesn't exist as an actual discreet aquifer variant. I've seen increasing the embark rectangle from one to two tiles covering one Light and one Heavy tile has resulted in "Varied", which makes sense, but there's also areas where single tile embarks are displayed as "Varied", which I guess could result from one Light layer and one Heavy layer, or from two biomes being present on the same single tile embark, with different kinds of aquifers on each part.
1. What is DF's definition of a "Varied" aquifer?
2. How does DF determine what type of aquifer(s) a tile will have (of interest to tool makers and world designers)?
1. It means both the conditions for a heavy and light aquifer are met at different subtiles in the selected area.
2. The reason this has led to so many inconsistencies and hidden aquifers and etc. is that the soil depth is something of a mess, since they peel off by elevation level, but it is tricky to get the exact elevation level needed for the display. But regardless of all that, the important new part is that the heavy aquifers occur when drainage%20 is 7. That's odd, but we didn't have an additional field to add and it makes it feel random enough and nominally gives us our 5% figure in enough of the different drainage biomes. Perhaps not the sort of thing to survive the map rewrite, ha ha.
Quote from: Beag
With the switch to graphics coming up in the steam release I have some questions regarding the graphical representation of creatures:
1. Will scars appear on creatures graphically and if so in the proper places? On a similar note will dismembered creature's sprites properly represent their lack of certain limbs?
2. With the main races at least(dwarves, humans, goblins and elves) there is a lot of physical description detail generated- how much of that will be represented on the sprite?
3. When it comes to generated races like escaped necromancer experiments will each generated combination have it's own sprite or will you generalize a sprite for escaped necromancer experiments in general?
4. When the myth and magic update finally comes around will magical corruption be represented on a creature's sprite? If so how detailed would the visual representation of the progression of this corruption be(referencing an old threetoe's story the dwarf who was cursed by elves slowly turned into a tree person starting with her hair)?
1. Not currently planned, no, especially the scars. It's feasible, but we have to prioritize other things first. We did pixelwise scars on 64x64 faces in a platoon vs. robots game twenty years ago, so hopefully we can arrive there someday.
2. I'm not prepared to commit currently. The artists have drawn a ton of cool variations involving skin and hair and clothes etc., but we still need to get it coded and tested.
3. A mixture most likely to start. It depends on how well the dwarf pictures go, in part, since they are also made from pieces.
4. No idea yet. Zombies are a form of magical corruption, in the sense of being a creature with a syndrome, and there are varying ways of representing that which take more and more resources.
Quote from: FrankVill
Whereas, within the animal kingdom, a dwarf is a mammal and a bird is an oviparous being ...
1) How does DF interpret the species "eagle man"?
2) At the time of having children, would they lay eggs or become pregnant?
3) Could there be different combinations (60% human, 40% eagle) for each created world? (I have mentioned the eagle man so far only as an example).
4) Are mythological creatures (such as dragons, forgotten beasts ...) somehow included in the animal hierarchy?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8097965#msg8097965
Strik3r: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8097980#msg8097980
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8098473#msg8098473
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8098478#msg8098478
Ah, yeah, the descriptions leave a lot to be desired. I know some people think the animal people are all forms of minotaur, with completely human bodies, since the descriptions read that way sometimes. But they are mostly like the animal they come from, just more human-shaped and more thinkery. So an eagle person would definitely still be avian, and lay eggs, and (hopefully) the object files reflect this. As for what's possible later, this depends on what happens, for instance, with the "centaur problem", where we'd like to take bits and pieces of different creature definitions and mix and match and blend them. The more successful we are with this, the more fucked up the future becomes, in a wholesome way.
Re: mythical beasts, as people point out, they are intentionally removed from the mundane currently, and with their odd properties, they don't really fit into any e.g. evolutionary framework. At the same time, they do have flesh that works in a fleshy way, oftentimes, so even if they don't fit in a hierarchy, a dragon could be considered reptile-adjacent in some sense, and whatever metaphysical or mundane effects take those things into consideration might work out. For instance, a spell that required 'scales' would work with dragon scales, although really it should probably consider itself very lucky to have them and would be justified in overloading in some sense. Hopefully that sort of thing will happen, somehow.
Quote from: iceball3
I've been plumbing the depths of the material templates definitions and found these tokens in THREAD_PLANT_TEMPLATE: [/color]Code: [Select][SHEAR_YIELD:600000] used cottonDo you remember where you sourced these numbers? The only other materials defined in the raws that match these characteristics at first pale are things like steel and adamantine, and plant thread has precipitously low attributes in every other characteristic.
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:600000] used cotton
Is it a typo in the form of an extra 0, perhaps? I can imagine it might be due to the fact that every [SOFT] armor present in the game also has [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD] attached, which reduces both the values to a much more sane (if a bit meager) cap, which lends me to believe that those values were the intended ones for cloth materials.
I've mainly been mulling over this because I've had a hard time finding good sources concerning fabric resistance on the internet myself, and I've been trying to make a neat little mod to add in "gambesons" as armor types, but noticed that they were seriously over performing against all edged weapons if they were allowed to use the thread templates' default values.
I do not have the slightest idea where they are from. There is a ton of information online, and it's quite possible I just copied it out of a table without thinking very hard about it, and possibly screwed up a conversion if I had to make one. There was a ton of haphazard data entry on the initial pass there. Certainly up for using better number from reputable data sets. May also have to do some additional worrying about what woven means -- it has been a problem overall with the combat system. A single cotten thread, and cloth woven in any number of ways, might be significantly different, even accounting for size? I'm not an materials engineer, like at all.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
"If your dispatched Militia dwarves from fortress mode are searching for artifacts in a non-hostile way asking for directions & locations town to town like a adventuring group, and are eventually privy to the known location of it, is it currently implemented into the game to have them use their own intrigue/schemer skill (and related social skills) to corrupt a local into giving it to them without a fight?"
Without the dungeon keeper doing much to actually train schemer skill its one of those things you can get at embark but not do very much with. I had actually entertained retiring criminally/villanous adventuerers on my site to fufill the role if one of the starting seven eventually shuffled the mortal coil with their skillset or set off on a endless quest never to be seen again; in order to keep my fortress well connected.
They don't have a way to enact their own "infiltrate society" subgoal from their "recover artifact" army goal. It's not far off, which is why we were poised to get there, but it'll have to wait until after Steam/itch now.
Quote from: Prismatic
Do you think you could provide a full list of valid creature and caste flags for use with the new summoning interaction tokens ([IE_FORBIDDEN_CREATURE_FLAG], [IE_FORBIDDEN_CREATURE_CASTE_FLAG], etc)? It looks like a number of them (SMALL_RACE, etc) do not correspond to the typical creature tokens documented on the wiki.
Creature (notably, MUNDANE and HAS_ANY_CAN_SWIM are missing due to a bug):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Caste:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: clinodev on March 02, 2020, 03:51:39 am
Definitely looking forward to parallel release stress and other bug fixes!
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 02, 2020, 04:06:05 am
Cheers as always for the answers!Yes id noticed some movement on the bug tracker before i logged on this morning.
Definitely looking forward to parallel release stress and other bug fixes!
Post by: JesterHell696 on March 02, 2020, 09:05:52 am
Post by: iceball3 on March 02, 2020, 03:05:21 pm
The answer about the plant-fiber material stats is extremely helpful, knowing that it's kind of "lost to time" makes things such as suggestions involving material values a bit more easier to dip into. Might start a suggestion discussion thread about it once i've wrapped my head around all the material definitions and combat physics.
Post by: Immortal-D on March 02, 2020, 06:44:30 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 02, 2020, 07:12:04 pm
Excellent as always. Something that's been on my mind for a while now; Can you say how difficult it would be to add new world sizes? I find 'Small' (65x65) is too small to support a high number of civs & interesting events, while Medium (129x129) gets super laggy after a mere ~200 years. Maybe a 90x or 95x?Can't you define these as you like in Advanced worldgen?
Post by: ArmokGoB on March 02, 2020, 08:12:03 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 02, 2020, 10:00:12 pm
How long do you think it would take to remake the current build (at the time of answering) of DF from scratch if you knew everything you know now?To replicate or to make a more streamlined, modern, multi-cored DF monster that fixes every bit of code Toady ever planned to fix? There's quite a difference, and I doubt there's much point in doing the former. Whereas the latter is "how long does it take to make a game?". A near-impossible question. I mean, Toady knows what he knows now because he's spent the past 20 years making Dwarf Fortress and interacting with fans about it.
Post by: DG on March 03, 2020, 12:22:55 am
Excellent as always. Something that's been on my mind for a while now; Can you say how difficult it would be to add new world sizes? I find 'Small' (65x65) is too small to support a high number of civs & interesting events, while Medium (129x129) gets super laggy after a mere ~200 years. Maybe a 90x or 95x?Can't you define these as you like in Advanced worldgen?
You can choose a mixture of the following dimensions on either axis:
17 -> 33 -> 65 -> 129 -> 257
Imm wants more options between those numbers but I'm not sure if he's tried something like 65x129 (which is almost the exact number of tiles as the 95x suggestion) to address his specific problem. I assume more dimension options will wait for the map rewrite. Even if it isn't strictly related it doesn't seem to me like the type of thing you'd make time for outside of that arc.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2020, 01:56:01 am
Is there anything especially technically difficult about it? Or is it something the UI revamp could just throw in?Excellent as always. Something that's been on my mind for a while now; Can you say how difficult it would be to add new world sizes? I find 'Small' (65x65) is too small to support a high number of civs & interesting events, while Medium (129x129) gets super laggy after a mere ~200 years. Maybe a 90x or 95x?Can't you define these as you like in Advanced worldgen?
You can choose a mixture of the following dimensions on either axis:
17 -> 33 -> 65 -> 129 -> 257
Imm wants more options between those numbers but I'm not sure if he's tried something like 65x129 (which is almost the exact number of tiles as the 95x suggestion) to address his specific problem. I assume more dimension options will wait for the map rewrite. Even if it isn't strictly related it doesn't seem to me like the type of thing you'd make time for outside of that arc.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 03, 2020, 02:31:40 am
The temperature calculations seem to be based on a world size of 2**x + 1 for the latitudes, and probably would break a little. While those calculations are a poor fit with the real world (real world poles do not have a zero temperature variation between summer and winter), reworking them probably takes some effort.Is there anything especially technically difficult about it? Or is it something the UI revamp could just throw in?Excellent as always. Something that's been on my mind for a while now; Can you say how difficult it would be to add new world sizes? I find 'Small' (65x65) is too small to support a high number of civs & interesting events, while Medium (129x129) gets super laggy after a mere ~200 years. Maybe a 90x or 95x?Can't you define these as you like in Advanced worldgen?
You can choose a mixture of the following dimensions on either axis:
17 -> 33 -> 65 -> 129 -> 257
Imm wants more options between those numbers but I'm not sure if he's tried something like 65x129 (which is almost the exact number of tiles as the 95x suggestion) to address his specific problem. I assume more dimension options will wait for the map rewrite. Even if it isn't strictly related it doesn't seem to me like the type of thing you'd make time for outside of that arc.
The tropicality calculations used for temperate/tropical biome determination are also based on the standard formula dimensions, plus some other factors.
Thus, there are some dependencies at least in the Y/latitude dimension.
As indicated by DG, having different numbers on the latitude and longitude works well. Personally I go for 33 * 129, because 129 is the smallest standard size that allows for the elusive dry broadleaf biome, and 33 to keep the world size under control.
Post by: Scruiser on March 03, 2020, 11:17:57 am
I'm not sure - the one angle I can think of is creatures with spheres. They should get the secret
I don’t think this is actually true. Modding secrets and various megabeasts, demons, and other creatures with spheres and power and supernatural tags, they don’t actually ever write down or teach or use as bribes their secret knowledge or even ever seem to use their secrets to do anything, so I don’t think they get the secret knowledge at all. Should this go in the bug tracker? It might be a moot point, since the magic system will get reworked anyway after the steam premium release...
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on March 03, 2020, 01:33:03 pm
Post by: Bumber on March 03, 2020, 01:38:13 pm
Will you ever fix morale system in adventure mode, [...]Yes. Bugs will be fixed eventually.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on March 03, 2020, 01:42:35 pm
Yes. Bugs will be fixed eventually.
There are 6 years already passed since 0.40 release with this morale system as single major bug in adventure mode.
Not to complain. I'm just asking will this mode will ever become playable again or remain casual and bugged as now)))
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2020, 04:53:18 pm
Will you ever fix morale system in adventure mode, which currently forces most of NPC, including military and nobility, to run around aggressor and not respond the player's aggression with weapon? Honestly, it makes almost impossible to fight someone in versions after 0.34. You can just start the game as peasant and come to the capital, trying to hit with bronze knife High lady-vampire with over 9000 victims and she with her dozens of retinue and military guards will just try to run from the player, leaving her throne and treasures to single psycho... Not to mention poor peaceful bandits, of course.A couple of posts above yours, Toady said the fear system should be fixed.
Quote
2. Yeah, you are definitely noticing a defect. Everybody relevant in a fight feels terror (ie, not a ghost, not berserk, etc.), but the amount of terror is moderated by fearlessness and by the opposed strength of the sides. But the strength calculation isn't great, and larger beings do get a bit of an advantage there. It looks like the equipment/skill calc here is especially bad or even not happening at all - even the off-screen fights during raids do better equipment checks (which is good in a way, since it actually impacts the outcome there.) Should certainly be improved to better account for party equipment/skill/rep, and enemy equipment/rep at least, if not skill once you test it.
Post by: Knight Otu on March 03, 2020, 05:44:57 pm
Post by: Enemy post on March 04, 2020, 11:52:31 am
Post by: Ziusudra on March 04, 2020, 04:14:29 pm
Are cave crocodiles based on the "sewer alligator" urban legends?Or real cave crocodiles (http://www.abanda-expedition.org/orange-cave-dwelling-crocodile-012.html)?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 04, 2020, 05:02:09 pm
I assume there's a chance that Premium development is going to include big changes that will, for the first time, make even non-graphical tilesets no longer "plug-and-play" with the new release. Are you going to be releasing anything (whether a set of guidelines or a test version when the game is ready and started beta testing) for people who make such tilesets to get started on updating their sets, or am I going to have to switch to Curses if I want to play on day 1?
Yeah, I mean I'll buy the premium version anyway so will play the graphics version too of course, but I imagine I'll want to turn them off fairly soon. (At least in fortress mode anyway. Excited for non-crashing graphical Adventurer).
Post by: Immortal-D on March 05, 2020, 10:29:33 am
Oddly, no you can not. If you enter a size outside the default parameters, it defaults to the closest one.Excellent as always. Something that's been on my mind for a while now; Can you say how difficult it would be to add new world sizes? I find 'Small' (65x65) is too small to support a high number of civs & interesting events, while Medium (129x129) gets super laggy after a mere ~200 years. Maybe a 90x or 95x?Can't you define these as you like in Advanced worldgen?
Edit: Was not aware you could mix the sizes of each axis. Seems like a good workaround at least.
Post by: alessar on March 06, 2020, 06:26:44 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 06, 2020, 06:51:36 am
Hi guys! A question about necromancy, I have a world without towers (and Necromancer I suppose). Could that arise during fortress/adventure normal games in years?Coloured that for you.
(At a guess, I'd say it's possible if you actually have a necromancer as it might be as simple as founding a regular site. Without them, hard to say).
Post by: Pillbo on March 06, 2020, 09:44:06 pm
Are cave crocodiles based on the "sewer alligator" urban legends?Or real cave crocodiles (http://www.abanda-expedition.org/orange-cave-dwelling-crocodile-012.html)?
Cool link, containing an interesting typo:
Quote
They look very close to the Dward Crocodile, (Osteolaemus tetraspis), however, they differ by several points.
Osteolaemus tetraspis's correct name is the Dwarf Crocodile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_crocodile). So real cave crocodiles are descendants of the dwarves...
Post by: wlerin on March 07, 2020, 12:25:33 am
Those are neat, but their discovery post-dates the existence of cave crocodiles in DF by a few years.Are cave crocodiles based on the "sewer alligator" urban legends?Or real cave crocodiles (http://www.abanda-expedition.org/orange-cave-dwelling-crocodile-012.html)?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 07, 2020, 12:37:07 am
Because Dwarf Fortress really happened...Those are neat, but their discovery post-dates the existence of cave crocodiles in DF by a few years.Are cave crocodiles based on the "sewer alligator" urban legends?Or real cave crocodiles (http://www.abanda-expedition.org/orange-cave-dwelling-crocodile-012.html)?
--edit
Oh, you mean as a reason Toady couldn't have used them as inspiration. Well, yes, DF cave crocs are massive.
Post by: jecowa on March 07, 2020, 03:52:49 pm
Post by: Pancakes on March 07, 2020, 06:08:37 pm
Post by: Randomizer on March 08, 2020, 09:43:00 am
Post by: DogsRNice on March 08, 2020, 03:39:11 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 08, 2020, 05:24:56 pm
How often do you take suggestions from the suggestions section into consideration?Depends on what you mean by "take into consideration".
- All suggestions are read.
- I assume interesting/good ones can result in notes being taken.
- I'd also assume suggestions relating to things that are to be addressed in a non trivial way are revisited.
- I wouldn't be surprised if reasonably simple ones might become candidates for parallel updates during the Big Wait and onward when the easy things planned and reasonably easy bug fixing has been done, but it will be some time before we get there.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 08, 2020, 05:46:38 pm
And (in case it's not obvious) there's no guarantee Toady will implement anything if it doesn't fit with his vision of the game.How often do you take suggestions from the suggestions section into consideration?Depends on what you mean by "take into consideration".
- All suggestions are read.
- I assume interesting/good ones can result in notes being taken.
- I'd also assume suggestions relating to things that are to be addressed in a non trivial way are revisited.
- I wouldn't be surprised if reasonably simple ones might become candidates for parallel updates during the Big Wait and onward when the easy things planned and reasonably easy bug fixing has been done, but it will be some time before we get there.
How will images for procedural creatures be handled in the steam version? The image would have to be assembled from different body parts of varying sizes. Will we have just a generic procedural creature image?In this thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0
the tileset creators for the premium release have been discussing putting together different body parts to create the procedurally generated creatures. But last time it was mentioned, Toady hadn't started work on the new graphics functionality so exactly what was possible was unclear.
Hopefully we'll hear more by the end of the month if enough progress has been made.
Post by: Putnam on March 09, 2020, 02:35:19 am
Those are neat, but their discovery post-dates the existence of cave crocodiles in DF by a few years.Are cave crocodiles based on the "sewer alligator" urban legends?Or real cave crocodiles (http://www.abanda-expedition.org/orange-cave-dwelling-crocodile-012.html)?
...You know animals exist before they're discovered, yeah? They lived before 1400.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 09, 2020, 03:55:36 am
I believe the statement was referring back to "did Toady base cave crocodiles on giant sewer alligators" to which the counter was "how about actual cave crocodiles?" to which this answer states that Dwarf Fortress predates the discovery of cave crocodiles (in 2008), therefore no.Those are neat, but their discovery post-dates the existence of cave crocodiles in DF by a few years.Are cave crocodiles based on the "sewer alligator" urban legends?Or real cave crocodiles (http://www.abanda-expedition.org/orange-cave-dwelling-crocodile-012.html)?
...You know animals exist before they're discovered, yeah? They lived before 1400.
Yeah, confused me too...
Post by: MrWiggles on March 09, 2020, 11:49:08 pm
How will images for procedural creatures be handled in the steam version? The image would have to be assembled from different body parts of varying sizes. Will we have just a generic procedural creature image?This would probably be better answer on the Kitfox Discord server, since they're the one mainly handling the Steam side of things.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 10, 2020, 01:27:06 am
Toady and only Toady is doing the coding (unless he gave up and called in help already). Kitfox are just publishing and paying the artists.How will images for procedural creatures be handled in the steam version? The image would have to be assembled from different body parts of varying sizes. Will we have just a generic procedural creature image?This would probably be better answer on the Kitfox Discord server, since they're the one mainly handling the Steam side of things.
(Question mistakenly says "in the Steam version", but it means "once the new graphics functionality the game is getting has been added".)
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 10, 2020, 02:25:18 am
Premium isn't Steam, but:Toady and only Toady is doing the coding (unless he gave up and called in help already). Kitfox are just publishing and paying the artists.How will images for procedural creatures be handled in the steam version? The image would have to be assembled from different body parts of varying sizes. Will we have just a generic procedural creature image?This would probably be better answer on the Kitfox Discord server, since they're the one mainly handling the Steam side of things.
(Question mistakenly says "in the Steam version", but it means "once the new graphics functionality the game is getting has been added".)
- Commercial Premium: Premium with official graphics pack and some minor things. Planned to be available via Steam and Itch.io.
- Standard Premium: The same functional code as the Commercial version, but without the extras.
- Steam Premium: Commercial Premium via Steam. Same DF functionality as Commercial, but with Steam specific things (might be workshop, trading cards, achievements).
- Itch.io Premium: I don't know if that will exist, but expect it will, in which case it would be Commercial plus vendor specifics (might be workshop, trading cards, achievements, but presumably not compatible with the Steam implementations, as I'd expect Steam to make compatibility as difficult as possible for commercial reasons).
Post by: clinodev on March 10, 2020, 03:11:49 am
[...]
- Itch.io Premium: I don't know if that will exist, but expect it will, in which case it would be Commercial plus vendor specifics (might be workshop, trading cards, achievements, but presumably not compatible with the Steam implementations, as I'd expect Steam to make compatibility as difficult as possible for commercial reasons).
If you buy the game on itch.io, it's "Premium Dwarf Fortress" as with Steam, and to cover the lack of Steam Workshop access, they give you a Steam key as well.
Screenshot:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For the sort of hardcore Grandmaster Waxworkers and Cheesemakers who read FotF replies in full, though, it's worth noting Toady gets more money from itch, but the free Steam key is different than a normal Steam key for reviews and promotion within Steam.
[Edit: Cheers to Bumber who fixed my link!]
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 10, 2020, 03:44:47 am
Yes, regardless, how graphical body parts are put together to form procgen beasts is entirely Toady, not Kitfox. Because the game is the game regardless of where it is or what it's called.Premium isn't Steam, but:Toady and only Toady is doing the coding (unless he gave up and called in help already). Kitfox are just publishing and paying the artists.How will images for procedural creatures be handled in the steam version? The image would have to be assembled from different body parts of varying sizes. Will we have just a generic procedural creature image?This would probably be better answer on the Kitfox Discord server, since they're the one mainly handling the Steam side of things.
(Question mistakenly says "in the Steam version", but it means "once the new graphics functionality the game is getting has been added".)
- Commercial Premium: Premium with official graphics pack and some minor things. Planned to be available via Steam and Itch.io.
- Standard Premium: The same functional code as the Commercial version, but without the extras.
- Steam Premium: Commercial Premium via Steam. Same DF functionality as Commercial, but with Steam specific things (might be workshop, trading cards, achievements).
- Itch.io Premium: I don't know if that will exist, but expect it will, in which case it would be Commercial plus vendor specifics (might be workshop, trading cards, achievements, but presumably not compatible with the Steam implementations, as I'd expect Steam to make compatibility as difficult as possible for commercial reasons).
Post by: Putnam on March 10, 2020, 11:19:43 pm
- Standard Premium: The same functional code as the Commercial version, but without the extras.
Is that right? Releases on the site are gonna be like this, is classic gonna be done in parallel?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 10, 2020, 11:24:34 pm
It's the same game, so why not?- Standard Premium: The same functional code as the Commercial version, but without the extras.
Is that right? Releases on the site are gonna be like this, is classic gonna be done in parallel?
Steam gets you access to a tileset, music and workshop not some other game.
Having said that, that's not been confirmed yet. Other games with similar publishing patterns (Unreal World for example) release on Steam slightly earlier despite being the same product.
Would seem to make more sense not to do that for DF (at least after the initial Steam release) as players, generally ones on this forum, are the ones coming up with bug reports, but who knows. Perhaps Steam's beta version options are enough to keep things running smoothly).
Post by: MrWiggles on March 11, 2020, 02:19:20 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My bad, I mis quoated.
I meant this one:
Has there been any talk about steam trading cards, custom chat emoticons, or profile backgrounds (https://steamcommunity.com/tradingcards/) being available for the steam release?Which swould probably be better asked on the Kitfox Discord, because they're handling the steam release.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 11, 2020, 02:25:54 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 11, 2020, 02:31:59 am
How long have the development notes been updated with Steam stuff? Maybe just haven't been paying enough attention lately...
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 11, 2020, 02:57:08 am
Sorry, "Standard Premium" should have been called "Classic Premium", where Premium is the next major release, and the "prefix" is the way it's distributed.- Standard Premium: The same functional code as the Commercial version, but without the extras.
Is that right? Releases on the site are gonna be like this, is classic gonna be done in parallel?
Post by: clinodev on March 11, 2020, 04:39:46 am
'Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My bad, I mis quoated.
I meant this one:Has there been any talk about steam trading cards, custom chat emoticons, or profile backgrounds (https://steamcommunity.com/tradingcards/) being available for the steam release?Which swould probably be better asked on the Kitfox Discord, because they're handling the steam release.
I assure you it wouldn't be. The answer would be "We'll have to see what Tarn wants to do!" based on that being their answer for the last year for things like this. Toady's already spoken on cards in the past, it's just been a year ago in the AMAs before he was giving starting Premium any serious thought (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/b147yh/im_tarn_aka_toady_one_dwarf_fortress_is_coming_to/eiju8ul/) and the other portions of the question are entirely new. Kitfox is almost completely in a supporting role to do what they can to make things easier for Toady at this stage. Kitfox might well be the ones who get art made for them, (although I'd personally be totally down with crayon reward style trading cards,) but it'll be his decision, so he's the one to ask.
Example trading card suggestion:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Skullsploder on March 11, 2020, 04:53:53 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 11, 2020, 04:59:27 am
Sorry if this has been asked before but are you planning to remove the restriction that dwarves need orthogonal access to construction sites in order to build there? They can already build diagonally, so it seems weird to require that they be able to stand orthogonally.But does it make sense to build a wall through a diagonal gap with no other access?
Yes, it's not consistent, but making things consistent and removing the diagonal wall-building restriction is not the same thing.
Post by: Bumber on March 11, 2020, 05:20:24 am
But does it make sense to build a wall through a diagonal gap with no other access?If you can walk through diagonal gaps, then yes.
Post by: kaijyuu on March 11, 2020, 06:00:49 am
Post by: madpathmoth on March 11, 2020, 07:43:43 am
This is very very misleading for how dangerous they are. Someone thinking a "giant cougar" is the size of a bear (when it's more than three times the size) won't be able to fight it appropriately. Literally anyone who doesn't assume a ruther's "huge" is fifty times the size of a dwarf, easily bigger than your entire militia, instead of the mere four or five times the size of a dwarf (like a bear's "huge") is not going to understand what's going on when they are getting destroyed by one they provoked, that is simultaneously small enough to chase dwarves through narrow tunnels but SO MASSIVE it can't be stopped by bridges.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 11, 2020, 08:28:33 am
(It's not really graphics related. The graphics won't ever be able to show you that a demon is several times larger than Giant elephant).
Post by: madpathmoth on March 11, 2020, 08:42:35 am
(It's not really graphics related. The graphics won't ever be able to show you that a demon is several times larger than Giant elephant).
I know currently it can't, but never? Has Tarn said he's never going to implement characters taking up more than one tile?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 11, 2020, 08:45:18 am
Ok, sorry, not "never". But certainly not in time for the Steam release. User friendly text to make the game easier to grasp is a much more feasible upgrade for at least the next decade or so.(It's not really graphics related. The graphics won't ever be able to show you that a demon is several times larger than Giant elephant).
I know currently it can't, but never? Has Tarn said he's never going to implement characters taking up more than one tile?
Post by: madpathmoth on March 11, 2020, 08:53:10 am
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 11, 2020, 10:12:44 am
Ah, thank you. That answers my question; "if ever, not any time soon" is acceptable.
It's talked about here and there in the old DFtalks (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_talk.html), things like climbing a giant to be able to reach and attack it's head and such. So it's planned, but it's quite a large undertaking and not likely to happen for quite a few years (probably some time after boats are added since they will be multi-tile moving things that'll most likely need a lot of the same systems to work as far as pathfinding etc goes, which'll supposedly be before or after the economy gets re-added).
Also, there'll be different sized creature graphics to some extent with the steam release, though not much more than letting some things stretch into adjacent tiles or slightly more for the largest of creatures (example (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8044134#msg8044134)).
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 11, 2020, 02:00:11 pm
- Smaller than a dwarf
- About dwarf sized
- Larger than a dwarf
- Oversize
where the last ones extend a few pixels into adjacent tiles. That will probably remain until multi tile creatures are tackled, as mentioned.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 12, 2020, 02:20:24 am
The latest dev log (03/11/2020) is probably rather cryptic for those who haven't seen your lastest FotF replies (or possibly info in channels I haven't seen).
If I understand it correctly, you're aiming at having menus and other text one size (or more than one?) and game tiles another, to allow for the larger tiles that are in development without blowing up the size of the text. I guess it might also allow for graphics to be zoomed without affecting text?
Post by: IndigoFenix on March 12, 2020, 03:38:52 am
Any chance of giving an explanation of each of the personality traits and values, both in gameplay and how they impact the unfolding of events in worldgen?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 12, 2020, 03:46:00 am
Double post, but a different issue:I think it was a bit cryptic for anyone except maybe the artists (and whoever else witnessed whatever happened today).
The latest dev log (03/11/2020) is probably rather cryptic for those who haven't seen your lastest FotF replies (or possibly info in channels I haven't seen).
If I understand it correctly, you're aiming at having menus and other text one size (or more than one?) and game tiles another, to allow for the larger tiles that are in development without blowing up the size of the text. I guess it might also allow for graphics to be zoomed without affecting text?
Looking forward to the "layman's explanation" Steam devblog update.
Post by: Schmaven on March 12, 2020, 05:03:20 am
The latest dev log (03/11/2020) is probably rather cryptic for those who haven't seen your lastest FotF replies (or possibly info in channels I haven't seen).
If I understand it correctly, you're aiming at having menus and other text one size (or more than one?) and game tiles another, to allow for the larger tiles that are in development without blowing up the size of the text. I guess it might also allow for graphics to be zoomed without affecting text?
Based on the "Steam DF tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions" thread, one reason for different size tiles is to better show the world map. I haven't heard of much discussion around menu changes yet. The impression I got was that there would be another tweaking / bug fixing pass once the artists have more to work with before the menus / UI gets more focus.
We are currently discussing the worldmap. Since 32x32 is a bit large, the idea is to use 16x16 tiles for it, to show more map at a time.
Post by: voliol on March 12, 2020, 05:35:23 am
The latest dev log (03/11/2020) is probably rather cryptic for those who haven't seen your lastest FotF replies (or possibly info in channels I haven't seen).
If I understand it correctly, you're aiming at having menus and other text one size (or more than one?) and game tiles another, to allow for the larger tiles that are in development without blowing up the size of the text. I guess it might also allow for graphics to be zoomed without affecting text?
Based on the "Steam DF tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions" thread, one reason for different size tiles is to better show the world map. I haven't heard of much discussion around menu changes yet. The impression I got was that there would be another tweaking / bug fixing pass once the artists have more to work with before the menus / UI gets more focus.We are currently discussing the worldmap. Since 32x32 is a bit large, the idea is to use 16x16 tiles for it, to show more map at a time.
Indeed, Meph confirmed this on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/fhctjp/devlog_11_march_2020_the_basic_support_for/):
Quote from: Meph248
Differently sized grids: The game is set up in a grid of tiles. Those determine the sprite size. 32x32 for the ingame world right now; while the UI (text) and the worldmap use smaller sprites.
Identifiers: Toady wants to add a little utility that makes it easier to identify what a tile is showing. Many items in the game don't really have nice IDs. For example when I was working with TWBT, trying to figure how to assign a sprite to a bookcase, the ID was "B:UNK_V42_2:Bookcase::"
Post by: JoshBrickstien on March 12, 2020, 02:52:34 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 12, 2020, 09:34:48 pm
https://literate-gamer.zencast.website/episodes/172
You mention that you may need to dial back zombie invasions because vanilla worlds invariably die 600 years in. That's fair enough I think.
But are you able to make that moddable at all? Like a slider of zombie aggression or something? I ask because I'm having the opposite issue in my own modded worlds and I think it's mostly a result of having a whole load of anti-zombie civs (pretty much everyone except goblins), some of which are way too powerful. I fear that necromancers who don't try as hard won't ever get a chance to build a decent patch of evil, let alone take over the world.
Sure, that's pretty much entirely my problem and I should balance everything else to give the necros more of a fighting chance, but was just wondering what potential options you might add are.
Post by: darkhog on March 14, 2020, 07:32:30 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 14, 2020, 09:41:18 am
What tileset stuff will be possible in premium version, in comparison to what community can offer (TWBT, DFHack)? Would appreciate a table if you know at this point. If not, save this question for a future post.It's the same game. Graphics functionality is being added. The only difference between paying and not is that you get a tileset which takes advantage of that functionality from day 1 (and music, Steam workshop, etc). Everyone will be able to work with the new graphics functionality for whatever they want to do.
Post by: voliol on March 14, 2020, 10:24:18 am
What tileset stuff will be possible in premium version, in comparison to what community can offer (TWBT, DFHack)? Would appreciate a table if you know at this point. If not, save this question for a future post.It's the same game. Graphics functionality is being added. The only difference between paying and not is that you get a tileset which takes advantage of that functionality from day 1 (and music, Steam workshop, etc). Everyone will be able to work with the new graphics functionality for whatever they want to do.
The question could as well be "What isn't currently possible using TWBT, but will be supported in vanilla when the premium release comes out?".
I'm not too well-versed in TWBT, but overlapping objects/creatures, "paper-doll" creature sprites, direction-based ramp-graphics, and sprites larger than the tile they occupy, I believe are all not supported by TWBT/new as of the premium release. I think all the ones I mentioned are confirmed, but there might be others that are up in the air until Toady gets to them coding-wise to see whether they're plausible.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 14, 2020, 10:48:10 am
A picqued bit i noticed, is that child-care got a unexpected special mention or rather the erm, lack of non-motherly child care/maternal instincts to direct the babies away from throwing them into spartan like dog-pit regimes until they grow to adulthood tooth & nail or try to deliberately/'accidentally' commit infanticide around large areas with spikes.
With kidnapping plots, people retrieval missions and insinuated possible places to drop off your babies like the kobold egg lair, will this likely create a kind of sub-focus target for villianous behaviours? Stealing someone's child to exort their parents later etc.
There's that i understand a considerable wealth of community suggestions made out of interest on the topic. Besides some likely faults when it comes to pass like does the dwarf carry away eggs, drag behind itself non-baby like larvae grub, or carry a baby that is 10x the dwarf's current size like a elephant-person? But those are mostly abtract things.
Post by: therahedwig on March 14, 2020, 11:25:45 am
Quote
Stealing someone's child to exort their parents later etc.This already has a little basis in the legends, histfigs can request ransom for a kidnapped figure. It's not quite blackmail, but it's there...
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 14, 2020, 11:55:18 am
Post by: gregdaweson7 on March 14, 2020, 08:05:46 pm
Will there ever be any big repercussions for killing off nobles, like investigation or punishment by the player civ.
Will there ever be any use for ruler type nobles like the barron? a political system? Things like embargos, tariffs, military aid and treaties with stipulations other than the elve's tree quotas.
Currently, there isn't much of a reason to keep many of the nobles around and I just want to know if there will be in the future.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 14, 2020, 08:59:30 pm
Sorry if I'm doing this wrong, it's my first post.The big development arc planned after Mythgen is on society, politics, your fortress' (and other site's) purpose in the world. It'll be addressed then. Although that's still several years off yet, so specifically what will be addressed is probably not yet clear
Will there ever be any big repercussions for killing off nobles, like investigation or punishment by the player civ.
Will there ever be any use for ruler type nobles like the barron? a political system? Things like embargos, tariffs, military aid and treaties with stipulations other than the elve's tree quotas.
Currently, there isn't much of a reason to keep many of the nobles around and I just want to know if there will be in the future.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 15, 2020, 02:50:21 am
If you drain water into the underworld and make mud, cave moss grows in it. You can also grow crops too. However, trees and plants will never grow, even if you mod them to give them the same layer tokens as demons. How come? Is this just an edge case you never expected, or is it intended?You may have noted that while breaching caverns allows the plants to spread to muddy/soil in your fortress, they never spread to other caverns, i.e. caverns are locked to support only the plants "native" to them in the wild. If you look at the underworld, you'll note that it does not have any mud, and so does not provide any support for native plant life. The first part is a technical quirk of DF, while the second is a logical argument which may or may not match Toady's thoughts.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 15, 2020, 03:42:45 am
Sorry if I'm doing this wrong, it's my first post.
Will there ever be any big repercussions for killing off nobles, like investigation or punishment by the player civ.
Will there ever be any use for ruler type nobles like the barron? a political system? Things like embargos, tariffs, military aid and treaties with stipulations other than the elve's tree quotas.
Currently, there isn't much of a reason to keep many of the nobles around and I just want to know if there will be in the future.
Some of these are easy enough to address that political matters outside your fortress are pretty much only to do with 'relation hits' if there is a witness or absence of them coming back. Its not the best, barons of your own are meant to do more regarding hill-dwarves and a few bugs like the low frequency of hillocks settling near you & other economic sites like pits, hamlets & tree-retreats settling near you in large numbers that 0% respect the barons authority to turn over their land or workers kind of make the system further redundant.
Later in the game site leaders (your landowner noble, mayor or expedition leader depending on settlement status) can hold meetings & recieve diplomats to sort out tree quotas, peace deals petitions & trade agreements, so i can't really know if your personal experience of playing is that progressed or if your question is 'more of that kind of stuff'.
- Toady has previously expressed he isn't thrilled with the archaic state of outpost -> metropolis system, and hopes to address the 'direction' of each fort founded by fort-scenarios so you could alternatively start as a temple with a subset of buildings etc & pilgrim monks then progress to the end tier and be respected as such in the world. Or a prison colony, etc etc, a lot of it was discussed in the latter half of the literate-gamer podcast
More into it may be seen in the 'Law Arc' which will a expansion upon the politics of the world and requires some consistuent parts for least after 'The Big-Wait' to go ahead before some basic stuff Toady might be able to pull off before then into magic & the map re-write to overhaul the old world-generation & map code.
- Notable mentioned examples on the podcast which he has discussed before, include visualisers for offsite activities as per Army Arc for peace + war so you can helplessly watch your diplomats insult elves then be siezed by guards & addressing the gameplay loop to make invaders locked outside way-out-of-the-way have more disruptive behaviours. etc.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 17, 2020, 07:01:50 pm
How are you planning to tackle the necromancer visitors bug? Just removing them altogether or by fixing the game-breaking parts of their behaviour and still allowing them to visit? (Secretly or otherwise, not sure if their openness is a separate bug).
Post by: clinodev on March 17, 2020, 08:03:33 pm
I know you've said in the past that it's a bug,
[...]
However, all that said, it's a whole lot of fun. Are you really going to remove it "because it's a bug" and rely on players creating necromancers the old fashioned way with adventurers and books planted in the library? Because it seems it just needs a small amount of brushing up to be a usable feature.
Off the top of my head, rarer necromancer visitors, the dangerous loyalty issue of invaders and animals and maybe have necromancers take away the undead who haven't petitioned to join the fortress (they do that) when they leave and you could call it done (at least until Mythgen rewrite of course).
Much like stress problems, necromancer visitors are less "interesting" for those of us who play vanilla games with unmodded dwarves. Necromancers and intelligent undead taking over forts and then turning on the fortress as a result of a tavern scuffle is a regular topic of concern.
Perhaps you could just make a necromancer mod and offer it to those who are interested, rather than petitioning to keep game breaking bugs?
Regardless, I think perhaps you meant to post this in Suggestions. It's clearly not a FotF question, as you admit in the first line you already know it's been answered.
Post by: JesterHell696 on March 17, 2020, 08:47:30 pm
Much like stress problems, necromancer visitors are less "interesting" for those of us who play vanilla games with unmodded dwarves. Necromancers and intelligent undead taking over forts and then turning on the fortress as a result of a tavern scuffle is a regular topic of concern.
Perhaps you could just make a necromancer mod and offer it to those who are interested, rather than petitioning to keep game breaking bugs?
Regardless, I think perhaps you meant to post this in Suggestions. It's clearly not a FotF question, as you admit in the first line you already know it's been answered.
I see Shonai's question as questioning whether its really is a game breaking bug or if it might possibly be an unintended feature, it could definitely use tuning but making it impossible for necromancers to visit at all could be seen as an over correction, DF is a fantasy world simulator and outright forbidding necromancers from being able to visit at all seems like an arcade/gamey thing that I personally dislike.
IMHO the reason DF is great is because its take a simulationist approach not an gamist based one, but I think that Arma is a better FPS then CoD or Battlefield so I'm biased.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 17, 2020, 08:57:47 pm
Post by: DG on March 17, 2020, 09:01:38 pm
I think perhaps you meant to post this in Suggestions.
This. There's no point steering newbies in the right direction if regulars ignore the Suggestions forum. It seems that a reply from Toady, even a vague and non-committal one, is just too seductive an affirmation.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 17, 2020, 09:10:11 pm
Post by: DG on March 17, 2020, 09:17:29 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 17, 2020, 10:33:40 pm
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on March 18, 2020, 12:51:09 am
Edited to remove background details which might be confused for suggestions.
How are you planning to tackle the necromancer visitors bug? Just removing them altogether or by fixing the game-breaking parts of their behaviour and still allowing them to visit? (Secretly or otherwise, not sure if their openness is a separate bug).
I for one think necromancers visiting secretly would be pretty cool, to share my opinion on such a thing. Could perhaps work them to covertly steal bodies from fortress tombs and crypts in the future, or something similar.
Post by: Eric Blank on March 18, 2020, 10:57:05 pm
Edited to remove background details which might be confused for suggestions.
How are you planning to tackle the necromancer visitors bug? Just removing them altogether or by fixing the game-breaking parts of their behaviour and still allowing them to visit? (Secretly or otherwise, not sure if their openness is a separate bug).
I for one think necromancers visiting secretly would be pretty cool, to share my opinion on such a thing. Could perhaps work them to covertly steal bodies from fortress tombs and crypts in the future, or something similar.
Now that sounds like a good idea
Post by: mwanafalsafa on March 19, 2020, 02:39:17 pm
Are pathogens (apart from werebeasts) part of the roadmap? Have they ever been considered?
Seems highly interesting both mechanically and thematically. Pathogens could mutate randomly, altering a variety of straightforward statistics, e.g. what species they effect and how severely, mechanisms of spread (e.g. blood, prepared meals, shared mugs/goblets, close contact [e.g. having a conversation, meeting, dance, training, etc.], etc.), symptoms (e.g. personality/behavior changes, physical injuries, even beneficial traits, etc.).
Granted, this would be another thing that could just wipe out entire species/civilizations in world gen, making for somewhat less interesting worlds to play in. Though, containing a viral outbreak within your fort could provide a pretty darn interesting challenge in Fortress Mode.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 19, 2020, 06:05:39 pm
Current events have got me thinking...Disease and plague are mentioned in the Dev notes a few times yes. Especially in the larger version with the far off plans.
Are pathogens (apart from werebeasts) part of the roadmap? Have they ever been considered?
Seems highly interesting both mechanically and thematically. Pathogens could mutate randomly, altering a variety of straightforward statistics, e.g. what species they effect and how severely, mechanisms of spread (e.g. blood, prepared meals, shared mugs/goblets, close contact [e.g. having a conversation, meeting, dance, training, etc.], etc.), symptoms (e.g. personality/behavior changes, physical injuries, even beneficial traits, etc.).
Granted, this would be another thing that could just wipe out entire species/civilizations in world gen, making for somewhat less interesting worlds to play in. Though, containing a viral outbreak within your fort could provide a pretty darn interesting challenge in Fortress Mode.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
Although gods smiting the land with plagues would be a fairly reasonable thing for Mythgen, I guess along with the natural disasters previously mentioned.
Post by: mightymushroom on March 20, 2020, 12:08:34 pm
YES!!
Square map tiles and rectangular text is just what I've always wanted! Thank you, thank you!
I wonder whether some of the more "modern" interface suggestions à la Rimworld might work better or be more scalable with TrueType fonts and no tiles at all, but this is such a big step that I'm not even a little disappointed.
Post by: FrankVill on March 21, 2020, 06:39:34 am
Post by: Salmeuk on March 21, 2020, 10:26:15 pm
Are there any plans for expanding the animation of tiles? Similar to water flowing downstream or waves crashing on the beach in the current versions.
Post by: thvaz on March 22, 2020, 05:24:30 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on March 24, 2020, 08:43:08 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 24, 2020, 09:09:28 am
Can you say if fixing Bins will make it in before Steam? The bugs related to Bins have been around for a while now; Is the issue complicated, or just never got to it?There's a lot of reports on bins on the tracker from various versions so it's probably best to be clear what's current. What issues in particular?
In my fortresses, ammo issues are noticeable. I find it gets permanently stuck most of the time when I try out an ammo pile with bins for a change. That I'd always recommend to keep out of bins.
Other than that, regular day to day bin usage isn't causing any other noticeable issues for me (again I stress, in my fortresses, I'm sure I play differently to others).
I think it's worth clarifying, because even now you see people on forums complain that dwarves will haul an entire bin of goods to where they need the one thing in it and then haul it all back again, which I think is some kind of urban myth.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 24, 2020, 10:54:29 am
:Not quite a myth, as it happened in DF history. Somewhere back in 0.40.X I had a block stockpile in the caverns taking from another block stockpile close to the mason. I then had a worker take a block out of a bin to build the protecting wall, and a hauler came along to pick up the bin to top it up, chased by one or two workers who wanted to get their blocks out of that bin (which results in a funny picture in my head). I believe it happened more than once. However, it was fixed, probably though the jobs rewrite.
I think it's worth clarifying, because even now you see people on forums complain that dwarves will haul an entire bin of goods to where they need the one thing in it and then haul it all back again, which I think is some kind of urban myth.
Also, I suspect people using the manager suffer less from bin locking than those using repeating workshop orders, as the former case just results in a failure message, while the latter also kills the repeat order.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 24, 2020, 04:34:48 pm
Exactly, there's a lot of, I had a bug 10 years ago, it was fixed 8 years ago, Broken Game! Going on.:Not quite a myth, as it happened in DF history. Somewhere back in 0.40.X I had a block stockpile in the caverns taking from another block stockpile close to the mason. I then had a worker take a block out of a bin to build the protecting wall, and a hauler came along to pick up the bin to top it up, chased by one or two workers who wanted to get their blocks out of that bin (which results in a funny picture in my head). I believe it happened more than once. However, it was fixed, probably though the jobs rewrite.
I think it's worth clarifying, because even now you see people on forums complain that dwarves will haul an entire bin of goods to where they need the one thing in it and then haul it all back again, which I think is some kind of urban myth.
Also, I suspect people using the manager suffer less from bin locking than those using repeating workshop orders, as the former case just results in a failure message, while the latter also kills the repeat order.
And, yeah, I play with the manager so perhaps don't notice some things. But I think I'd still notice if something was just not happening at all.
But, sorry, not one to discuss in-depth here, but perhaps might need to be looked into and discussed somewhere if it's unclear what's actually a 47.04 bug.
Post by: feelotraveller on March 25, 2020, 09:40:39 pm
Can you say if fixing Bins will make it in before Steam? The bugs related to Bins have been around for a while now; Is the issue complicated, or just never got to it?
In short: No, yes and yes.
To clarify: bin behaviour/mechanism has been revised multiple times and the current version is the best we have ever had; but there is something fundamentally broken about how containers are set up that has never been addressed and will not be before at least the map rewrite.
Personally I have zero issues with bins because after long and frustrating experience my forts don't use them at all. Mind you I use quantum stockpiles liberally and put up with each piece of worn-out clothing being individually hauled to the depot for disposal. Shrug.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 26, 2020, 03:01:49 am
Toady will give a proper answer at the end of the month. However, it seems like bin fixing would be a candidate for newbie friendliness adjustments (competing with far too many others). As feelotraveller pointed out, there have been multiple attempts to address the issue, each resulting in new undesired behaviors while fixing old ones, with each iteration a little bit better than the previous one.Can you say if fixing Bins will make it in before Steam? The bugs related to Bins have been around for a while now; Is the issue complicated, or just never got to it?
In short: No, yes and yes.
To clarify: bin behaviour/mechanism has been revised multiple times and the current version is the best we have ever had; but there is something fundamentally broken about how containers are set up that has never been addressed and will not be before at least the map rewrite.
Personally I have zero issues with bins because after long and frustrating experience my forts don't use them at all. Mind you I use quantum stockpiles liberally and put up with each piece of worn-out clothing being individually hauled to the depot for disposal. Shrug.
I use quantum stockpiles and have bins only for garbage disposal via the trade depot, and don't care that a number of bins won't be hauled to the depot every time, as they can just wait for the next caravan. With individual hauling the dorfs consistently fail to bring all the garbage to the trade depot before the caravan leaves, so I had to sell what's been brought there when the "about to leave" warning arrives.
Post by: Beag on March 27, 2020, 01:10:22 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 27, 2020, 02:51:08 pm
- Finishing Premium (both bug fixes and stuff that didn't make it, possibly in addition to things that may currently be planned to wait until then, as well as possible usability things that becomes pressing)
- Finishing Villains (or at least implementing the things that had to be postponed: there's always more that's possible to add...)
- Improved sieges, which may include some militia improvements (would be useful to have some tactics available when you can no longer rely on static geometry [i.e. hide behind corners] to counter the invaders in a somewhat organized fashion, for instance).
Post by: kontako on March 28, 2020, 11:42:18 pm
I've been a bit out of the loop so I was wondering if anyone could tell me:
Is there any consideration regarding having multiple z-levels rendered at once in the new graphical version (e.g. being able to view an entire mountain-side)
This is something I'd be excited to see.
Also:
Is the future map re-write planned to change how things are brought up and drawn on the screen during play, how the world map and structures are generated, or allow the player to expand the playable area. Perhaps somewhere between the three?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 28, 2020, 11:45:34 pm
G'day all,Yes. Everything TWBT can do is being attempted. You can follow work on this thread by the artists:
I've been a bit out of the loop so I was wondering if anyone could tell me:
Is there any consideration regarding having multiple z-levels rendered at once in the new graphical version (e.g. being able to view an entire mountain-side)
This is something I'd be excited to see.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0
This interview from a week or two back (which wasn't linked to in the devblog for some reason) goes into both Steam release and future work in a fair amount of detail and is well worth listening to.
https://literate-gamer.zencast.website/episodes/172
Post by: kontako on March 29, 2020, 02:01:36 am
G'day all,Yes. Everything TWBT can do is being attempted. You can follow work on this thread by the artists:
I've been a bit out of the loop so I was wondering if anyone could tell me:
Is there any consideration regarding having multiple z-levels rendered at once in the new graphical version (e.g. being able to view an entire mountain-side)
This is something I'd be excited to see.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0
This interview from a week or two back (which wasn't linked to in the devblog for some reason) goes into both Steam release and future work in a fair amount of detail and is well worth listening to.
https://literate-gamer.zencast.website/episodes/172
Thanks for that!
Post by: clinodev on March 31, 2020, 03:16:08 am
One thing that's come to mind is that this is probably the ideal time to consider any changes you might want to make to the mechanics behind workshops.
With the concurrent consideration being given to new players, I'm especially curious if you're thinking of regularizing the blocking tiles in magma workshops (or just making all their floors blocking,) and changing the dwarf killing workshops with their solid sides of impassable tiles (the Jeweler's workshop, its lesser partner the Bowyer's workshop, and any I might never have noticed)?
"Why won't they cut gems and why won't they haul my old jeweler's corpse?" is a constantly recurring new player question, and I can't imagine there was ever any reason for either solid wall, since neither interacts with machinery or liquids. Really the whole concept outside of pumps, machinery, magma workshops, etc., seems strangely freedom limiting, especially in light of the long term "workshop zone" plan.
Post by: therahedwig on March 31, 2020, 03:41:11 am
Post by: Pillbo on March 31, 2020, 12:52:51 pm
2. Maybe I've missed it but at this point does it seem like Premium is going to be a save-breaking update?
3. You're close to the US epicenter of the virus. How are things where you're living? Are you and your family ok?
Post by: ZM5 on March 31, 2020, 02:14:42 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 31, 2020, 03:40:59 pm
1. I was just curious, how you are feeling personally about all the changes for the Premium releases?1. Yes. There will be lots of candidates that won't make it in. There always are with open ended tasks.
:
Is there anything you're hoping to get in that you're not sure will make it?
2. Maybe I've missed it but at this point does it seem like Premium is going to be a save-breaking update?
:
2. It's not intended to be. Many keyboard key assignments will be new, of course, so the players will have to adapt. If stockpile reorganization makes it, I'd expect some quirky current "pure" stockpiles to end up being custom ones (Clothes/Armor ones, for instance, becoming Clothes stockpiles also accepting Armor, and Armor stockpiles also accepting Clothes). Some things may end up becoming available in new worlds only, as usual. Myth & Magic is the release intended to package as many compatibility breakers as possible into a single mega smasher.
Don't know if this has been asked already, but what do the "improved sieges" plan imply? Digging invaders? Tweaks to AI?Both have been mentioned in the past. E.g. avoiding routes where many casualties have been taken on the AI improvement side (hm, learning to zig-zag around the places where traps tend to be on caravan approaches. Scary!). They already know how to avoid traps reported to them by spies, but currently get caught again and again in the same traps that haven't been reported, even if their own troops have seen buddies getting the trap treatment.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2020, 03:58:49 pm
Don't know if this has been asked already, but what do the "improved sieges" plan imply? Digging invaders? Tweaks to AI?Take a listen to this interview from a couple of weeks ago (which isn't linked on the devlog for some reason). Tarn goes into some detail about the aim of Improved Sieges and the kind of features we might expect. It sounds lots of fun.
https://literate-gamer.zencast.website/episodes/172
Post by: Pillbo on March 31, 2020, 07:16:04 pm
1. I was just curious, how you are feeling personally about all the changes for the Premium releases?1. Yes. There will be lots of candidates that won't make it in. There always are with open ended tasks.
:
Is there anything you're hoping to get in that you're not sure will make it?
We all know there are things that won't be finished. I'm fishing for him to reveal specifics things he wants to accomplish or thinks aren't going to work out.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2020, 07:25:43 pm
Take a listen to this interview from a couple of weeks ago (which isn't linked on the devlog for some reason). Tarn goes into a lot of detail about what he hopes to include in the Steam release and the kind of features we might expect. It sounds interesting.1. I was just curious, how you are feeling personally about all the changes for the Premium releases?1. Yes. There will be lots of candidates that won't make it in. There always are with open ended tasks.
:
Is there anything you're hoping to get in that you're not sure will make it?
We all know there are things that won't be finished. I'm fishing for him to reveal specifics things he wants to accomplish or thinks aren't going to work out.
https://literate-gamer.zencast.website/episodes/172
(Unless technical issues occur, everything planned is what's going in the release. The most "open ended" feature is the tutorial, which I imagine only needs to cover a bare minimum at the time of release).
Post by: falcc on March 31, 2020, 08:43:07 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 31, 2020, 10:15:07 pm
How much damage do you envision characters/players being able to inflict on themselves, either for post-steam adventure mode vampire spreading or during the magic release? Will we ever see suicide sphere demons instructing their supporters to die in order to re-raise them? How about self-flagellation or scarification for different religions?Toady's mentioned applying the force effects in reverse before. Shatter all the bones in your hand by punching the bronze colossus. Ha ha.
Does that count?
Post by: MrWiggles on April 01, 2020, 01:26:02 am
Post by: therahedwig on April 01, 2020, 04:24:31 am
Post by: clinodev on April 01, 2020, 04:37:45 am
In DF, of course, a lot of people would probably be thrilled with just the possibility of saying, "You speardwarves, wait here for the goblins to run through the traps, and let them trickle through into the full squad one by one! You marksdwarves, stand over there and shoot, but don't charge!" and not having to force it with architecture.
Post by: therahedwig on April 01, 2020, 04:50:07 am
Post by: Toady One on April 01, 2020, 02:49:16 pm
Quote from: Immortal-D
Can you say how difficult it would be to add new world sizes? I find 'Small' (65x65) is too small to support a high number of civs & interesting events, while Medium (129x129) gets super laggy after a mere ~200 years. Maybe a 90x or 95x?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099565#msg8099565
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099684#msg8099684
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099699#msg8099699
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099709#msg8099709
For lag specifically, the size doesn't have much impact by itself, as you say - the historical figure and site cap will have a lot more of an effect, and you should be able to lower those in the parameters in order to make the 129x129 more tolerable. However, yeah, I understand that getting the right density look you are seeking would make a 90x90 ideal. So, the issue is as mentioned in the comments, when I've looked at this in the past, there are a few places that depend on the map having dimensions in the formation 2^x + 1. This isn't hyper-crucial, just a convenience, but there are enough occurrences of this that it has been too difficult to change on a lark. It'd have to be a project, so it works best with the map rewrite, which'll see world maps changed beyond this.
Quote from: ArmokGoB
How long do you think it would take to remake the current build (at the time of answering) of DF from scratch if you knew everything you know now?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099636#msg8099636
Yeah, it does depend a bit on the spirit of the question, and what sort of resources etc. But naively, hmm, I dunno. I wouldn't remember all the features at this point, but forgetting that... seven, eight years? But more maybe. A lot of the work has been revision, and that would shave off years of time (from 16-18 depending on how you are counting), but there are things like the art/instrument/etc. generators that were made one time and haven't really been revised since, and redoing those from scratch would take about the same amount of time, minus a little bit of thinking. And there's a ton of stuff like that, and it adds up. But if you use the old game as reference, or etc., it probably gets a bit faster, and a well-organized group of people dedicated to cloning might shave some more time off, depending on what they have as reference.
Quote from: Scruiser
Quote from: meI'm not sure - the one angle I can think of is creatures with spheres. They should get the secretI don’t think this is actually true. Modding secrets and various megabeasts, demons, and other creatures with spheres and power and supernatural tags, they don’t actually ever write down or teach or use as bribes their secret knowledge or even ever seem to use their secrets to do anything, so I don’t think they get the secret knowledge at all. Should this go in the bug tracker? It might be a moot point, since the magic system will get reworked anyway after the steam premium release...
Even if they get it (which still seems possible, since it just goes through the list by sphere, and there's nothing special about the generated secrets here as far as I know), they might not be placed in the proper instructor/etc. lists, so there are a few ways it could go wrong. But yeah, it's probably not a huge priority, especially since changing it uncarefully will probably cause a demon-led necromancer explosion that kills the world.
Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru
Will you ever fix morale system in adventure mode, which currently forces most of NPC, including military and nobility, to run around aggressor and not respond the player's aggression with weapon? Honestly, it makes almost impossible to fight someone in versions after 0.34. You can just start the game as peasant and come to the capital, trying to hit with bronze knife High lady-vampire with over 9000 victims and she with her dozens of retinue and military guards will just try to run from the player, leaving her throne and treasures to single psycho... Not to mention poor peaceful bandits, of course.
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099966#msg8099966
High_priest_of_Ru (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099968#msg8099968
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8100080#msg8100080
Quote from: Enemy post
Are cave crocodiles based on the "sewer alligator" urban legends?
As I recollect, they came about because of how the old 2D version worked, with the underground river that you hit, with its seasonal floods and farming. That had a Nileish vibe for us, and the cave crocodile is a natural result. If we even thought that much. You've seen some of the things we put underground.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I don't play with graphics usually, but I always swap the curses tileset for a more pleasing to my eye ASCII-ish set (Taffer set usually) and a pleasant colour scheme that suits my monitor better than vanilla.
I assume there's a chance that Premium development is going to include big changes that will, for the first time, make even non-graphical tilesets no longer "plug-and-play" with the new release. Are you going to be releasing anything (whether a set of guidelines or a test version when the game is ready and started beta testing) for people who make such tilesets to get started on updating their sets, or am I going to have to switch to Curses if I want to play on day 1?
Yeah, I mean I'll buy the premium version anyway so will play the graphics version too of course, but I imagine I'll want to turn them off fairly soon. (At least in fortress mode anyway. Excited for non-crashing graphical Adventurer).
I'm not sure at this point what the roll-out later on looks like, and it'll still be some time I expect before we turn our attention away from basic graphics conversion to the broader picture. There was some talk about getting some mods up prior to release, possibly, though I'm really not sure what will be feasible. I don't know that non-graphical tilesets will be broken, though -- the Classic DF ASCII set will still work, and it's still set up the same way. But yeah, if something happens with fonts and the format of the vanilla ASCII has to be updated, that info can certainly be released publicly beforehand, which is more difficult to manage with the graphical set.
Quote from: alessar
Hi guys! A question about necromancy, I have a world without towers (and Necromancer I suppose). Could that arise during fortress/adventure normal games in years?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8101660#msg8101660
I wouldn't expect anything interesting to happen over years of play in that save, if there are no towers or necromancers. We don't have new slabs being created by the gods post world gen still.
Quote from: Pancakes
Has there been any talk about steam trading cards, custom chat emoticons, or profile backgrounds being available for the steam release?
The trading cards came up, and I vaguely recall that part at least was part of what Steam wanted. And I recall them having some other requirements about images and things. So I'd expect to see some of this, but I'm not sure about specifically what we'll have, since we'll likely be doing this part later on in the process.
Quote from: Randomizer
How will images for procedural creatures be handled in the steam version? The image would have to be assembled from different body parts of varying sizes. Will we have just a generic procedural creature image?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103037#msg8103037
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103638#msg8103638
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103661#msg8103661
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103679#msg8103679
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103700#msg8103700
etc.
We're still in the early stages on this. We'd like to try the fancier stuff, and have some test images - since our test dwarf worked using assembly, it seems promising. But we're not able to commit to anything we haven't shown yet, since unknown issues could crop up.
Quote from: DogsRNice
How often do you take suggestions from the suggestions section into consideration?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103021#msg8103021
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103037#msg8103037
The comments here cover it - we read them, take notes on the general implied issues as well as any specifics that seem promising, and then revisit them before the big pushes. For smaller stuff, we have a different file and address those oftentimes along with bugs. We're in a weird time now with the Steam shift, so we didn't get to much, but the next Steam/Classic release should see various changes that will have taken a lot of the suggestions into consideration, both from the forum and the two more recent threads on new players and stress. Some of that may happen in the parallel bug-fix releases as well, though I need to be careful due to the potential interface changes.
Quote from: Skullsploder
Sorry if this has been asked before but are you planning to remove the restriction that dwarves need orthogonal access to construction sites in order to build there? They can already build diagonally, so it seems weird to require that they be able to stand orthogonally.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104251#msg8104251
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104260#msg8104260
kaijyuu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104282#msg8104282
It has been many years since I looked at this, though I suspect kaijyuu's comment about cave-ins is a reason. The diagonal issue with the grid have always been unsatisfying, and I'm not sure if a diagonal cave-in support change would open a whole new can of worms.
Quote from: madpathmoth
Alongside the graphics upgrade, will the Steam/Itch release include the relative size of creatures being visually displayed?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104369#msg8104369
madpathmoth (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104382#msg8104382
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104386#msg8104386
madpathmoth (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104392#msg8104392
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104422#msg8104422
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104514#msg8104514
Just on the visual side, we're currently look at 96px and 64px tall as a limit. This is enough to make a dragon or colossus imposing and obviously different from a dwarf, but not enough to tease apart differences between all creatures while respecting readability/etc. of the pictures. It's true that this isn't strictly enough, and that some sort of additional information would help, but I don't think we'll be doing it with the tiles.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
The latest dev log (03/11/2020) is probably rather cryptic for those who haven't seen your lastest FotF replies (or possibly info in channels I haven't seen).
If I understand it correctly, you're aiming at having menus and other text one size (or more than one?) and game tiles another, to allow for the larger tiles that are in development without blowing up the size of the text. I guess it might also allow for graphics to be zoomed without affecting text?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104839#msg8104839
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104862#msg8104862
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104866#msg8104866
Yeah, that's right, though I'm not strictly sure what sort of zooming stuff we'll have using the new tiles. But they are completely decoupled from the text now. Hopefully the dev logs after this were more useful!
Quote from: IndigoFenix
Kind of a big request, but it's been bothering me for a long time, and pretty much all of my attempts at science (particularly worldgen-related science) have turned up fruitless. You did mention a few in your last reply, but a full explanation would be really handy.
Any chance of giving an explanation of each of the personality traits and values, both in gameplay and how they impact the unfolding of events in worldgen?
Ahh... that's a bit beyond what I can easily do in here, as doing the searches, interpretation and transcription for 80+ elements would easily take a day or more. As usual, there'll likely be a few surprising ones that aren't well-known by the community, but also they'll be way underutilized compared to what players often think in many cases, because most of the decision-making just isn't that complicated currently.
Quote from: JoshBrickstien
Will the premium release allow entities to appear to move smoothly between tiles?
I can't commit to that now or even say that it is likely. We're thinking about it, and there are various issues, but it is possible.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Just listened to your interview on Literate Gamer. Very interesting.
https://literate-gamer.zencast.website/episodes/172
You mention that you may need to dial back zombie invasions because vanilla worlds invariably die 600 years in. That's fair enough I think.
But are you able to make that moddable at all? Like a slider of zombie aggression or something? I ask because I'm having the opposite issue in my own modded worlds and I think it's mostly a result of having a whole load of anti-zombie civs (pretty much everyone except goblins), some of which are way too powerful. I fear that necromancers who don't try as hard won't ever get a chance to build a decent patch of evil, let alone take over the world.
Sure, that's pretty much entirely my problem and I should balance everything else to give the necros more of a fighting chance, but was just wondering what potential options you might add are.
I don't have a concrete plan yet, so I don't know what the levers are going to be. I can make a note to keep this in mind.
Quote from: darkhog
What tileset stuff will be possible in premium version, in comparison to what community can offer (TWBT, DFHack)? Would appreciate a table if you know at this point. If not, save this question for a future post.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106150#msg8106150
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106168#msg8106168
It's a bit early for a table, but I also don't have a list of TWBT/DFHack features you have in mind. We're just going to be showing graphical features as they are confirmed, so I won't be able to outpace the dev logs in terms of reveals in any case.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
A picqued bit i noticed, is that child-care got a unexpected special mention or rather the erm, lack of non-motherly child care/maternal instincts to direct the babies away from throwing them into spartan like dog-pit regimes until they grow to adulthood tooth & nail or try to deliberately/'accidentally' commit infanticide around large areas with spikes.
With kidnapping plots, people retrieval missions and insinuated possible places to drop off your babies like the kobold egg lair, will this likely create a kind of sub-focus target for villianous behaviours? Stealing someone's child to exort their parents later etc.
There's that i understand a considerable wealth of community suggestions made out of interest on the topic. Besides some likely faults when it comes to pass like does the dwarf carry away eggs, drag behind itself non-baby like larvae grub, or carry a baby that is 10x the dwarf's current size like a elephant-person? But those are mostly abtract things.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106193#msg8106193
Yeah, as therahedwig mentioned, we were already leaning this way, and just didn't get through with our fortress implementation of plots. The plan is to pick that work back up when the Steam dust settles and we are doing the premagic army stuff.
Quote from: TheFlame52
If you drain water into the underworld and make mud, cave moss grows in it. You can also grow crops too. However, trees and plants will never grow, even if you mod them to give them the same layer tokens as demons. How come? Is this just an edge case you never expected, or is it intended?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106562#msg8106562
Yeah, it is using a function that checks the established populations for trees, which are set up when you embark. That layer of population code is ancient and weird, sadly, and doesn't adapt to anything at all once the fort starts, aside from tracking some numbers for animals. Not sure all of what I'll get to with the map rewrite.
Quote from: gregdaweson7
Will there ever be any big repercussions for killing off nobles, like investigation or punishment by the player civ.
Will there ever be any use for ruler type nobles like the barron? a political system? Things like embargos, tariffs, military aid and treaties with stipulations other than the elve's tree quotas.
Currently, there isn't much of a reason to keep many of the nobles around and I just want to know if there will be in the future.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106413#msg8106413
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106585#msg8106585
The comments more or less address it, but yeah, it's a way off in the development notes, but more extensive and proper use of political positions, perhaps even to the point of usefulness, is in there. Currently as a post-magic thing when we restructure societies.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
How are you planning to tackle the necromancer visitors bug? Just removing them altogether or by fixing the game-breaking parts of their behaviour and still allowing them to visit? (Secretly or otherwise, not sure if their openness is a separate bug).
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8108213#msg8108213
JesterHell696: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8108226#msg8108226
EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8108309#msg8108309
The sheer volume of necromancer and undead lt visitors is purely unintended. Correcting that would be a start -- given the way they are chased off in world gen, they should not be open visitors. People have never responded consistently to night creatures, but they aren't meant to be cheerfully accepted, aside from the new humanoid experiments, who have a plausible story of woe. Of course having new types of infiltration etc. would be fun. If it's like world gen, they should even be able to be migrants, staying in your fort until they are discovered over aging issues, though the w.g. ones do tend to run off in to the wilds much earlier than vampires do. I don't have a problem with any of this as long as it doesn't get too far out of hand.
Quote from: Salmeuk
Are there any plans for expanding the animation of tiles? Similar to water flowing downstream or waves crashing on the beach in the current versions.
We have a few tests tiles here and there, but as with other (relatively) ambitious features we'll have to see how it turns out, and we won't be able to commit until we actually post stuff on the dev log, case-by-case.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Can you say if fixing Bins will make it in before Steam? The bugs related to Bins have been around for a while now; Is the issue complicated, or just never got to it?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8112284#msg8112284
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8112328#msg8112328
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8112537#msg8112537
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8113373#msg8113373
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8113475#msg8113475
For the bin issues that are left, it is probably halfway between being complicated and just being part of the list. Ongoing bin/storage issues are on our list(s) of things to look at again before the Steam/itch release.
Quote from: Beag
What update arc will you be working on after the steam release? Will it finally be the myth and magic arc or something else?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8114448#msg8114448
PatrikLundell's breakdown is correct. There are a few things to do, and then it'll be time. But it'll take some months post-Steam/itch before that begins certainly.
Quote from: kontako
G'day all,
I've been a bit out of the loop so I was wondering if anyone could tell me:
Is there any consideration regarding having multiple z-levels rendered at once in the new graphical version (e.g. being able to view an entire mountain-side)
This is something I'd be excited to see.
Also:
Is the future map re-write planned to change how things are brought up and drawn on the screen during play, how the world map and structures are generated, or allow the player to expand the playable area. Perhaps somewhere between the three?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8115335#msg8115335
kontako (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8115361#msg8115361
Quote from: clinodev
It's been great following the recent progress of your work with Mayday and Meph! Thanks to all three of you for the recent pictures!
One thing that's come to mind is that this is probably the ideal time to consider any changes you might want to make to the mechanics behind workshops.
With the concurrent consideration being given to new players, I'm especially curious if you're thinking of regularizing the blocking tiles in magma workshops (or just making all their floors blocking,) and changing the dwarf killing workshops with their solid sides of impassable tiles (the Jeweler's workshop, its lesser partner the Bowyer's workshop, and any I might never have noticed)?
"Why won't they cut gems and why won't they haul my old jeweler's corpse?" is a constantly recurring new player question, and I can't imagine there was ever any reason for either solid wall, since neither interacts with machinery or liquids. Really the whole concept outside of pumps, machinery, magma workshops, etc., seems strangely freedom limiting, especially in light of the long term "workshop zone" plan.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116480#msg8116480
Yeah, the bench blockage is somewhat silly and doesn't serve much of a purpose. We've got the workshop images with their benches in the right spots, in any case, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to loosen that part up. It would be nice if they'd still try to walk around tables (and benches etc.), but that's a lesser priority I suppose.
Quote from: Pillbo
1. I was just curious, how you are feeling personally about all the changes for the Premium releases? Is it nice to get into all this stuff that has been neglected for years or does it feel like a distraction from what you'd rather be doing? Are you needing to learn a bunch of new stuff to accomplish this? Is there anything you're hoping to get in that you're not sure will make it?
2. Maybe I've missed it but at this point does it seem like Premium is going to be a save-breaking update?
3. You're close to the US epicenter of the virus. How are things where you're living? Are you and your family ok?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116760#msg8116760
Pillbo: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116870#msg8116870
1. It's been fun to see everything come together, and I'm enjoying the change of pace. Of course, my ultimate preference was being off and doing magic stuff and the sort of thing I'd been doing up until now, but this is good.
2. Yeah, who knows on the saves, in the end, but right now they are fine. We'd like to keep them intact, though we haven't hit the hard parts yet, when we by necessity must restructure how saves interact with mods and graphics.
3. We are okay so far. We've been staying inside since before the state-wide order came down, but there's always a risk getting groceries etc., and the US has hardly seen the worst of it yet. There's inadequate testing, but we suspect a few relatives had it so far (and recovered), and I just learned a few friends are also sick. People in the part of Washington where I'm at are taking things at least semi-seriously overall, so hopefully our curve etc. will be as alright as possible at this point.
Quote from: ZM5
Don't know if this has been asked already, but what do the "improved sieges" plan imply? Digging invaders? Tweaks to AI?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116760#msg8116760
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116769#msg8116769
https://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html in the Improved Sieges section, while ancient, is still pretty up to date, and includes those things. But yeah, the recent podcast and both comments included here about cover it. Would like them to be at least slightly clever and dangerous even for people that have been playing a while and who want that kind of experience.
Post by: clinodev on April 01, 2020, 06:09:07 pm
Post by: Doorkeeper on April 02, 2020, 02:59:53 am
Post by: Egan_BW on April 02, 2020, 04:41:24 am
Post by: Enemy post on April 02, 2020, 11:06:23 am
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 03, 2020, 01:47:16 pm
Post by: voliol on April 03, 2020, 03:29:52 pm
Dwarf Fortress trading cards would be sick. I would play the shit out of that.
Steam trading cards aren’t really that kind of trading cards, they’re just a collectible... thing. Iirc someone actually made DF playing cards some years ago, I remember there being a reddit post about it.
Post by: Inarius on April 03, 2020, 05:25:13 pm
eventually.
Post by: Eschar on April 05, 2020, 12:33:47 pm
playing games ingame is something which will be someday in DF.
eventually.
It was in Dragslay, wasn't it? Poker, at least?
Post by: therahedwig on April 07, 2020, 06:16:04 am
Like, I know it has to do with the master of a villain, but I am wondering why it is saying 'unidentified creature', I don't have culling of histfigs, so I am wondering, is this a bug or just me not understanding game mechanics?
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 07, 2020, 07:17:45 am
What does it mean when a villain confesses to following a plot under the influence of an unidentified creature?It's when the one(s) you're interrogating confess to their own involvement(s), but do not reveal who their master is. DF knows fully well who the master is, but it ain't telling you, at least not unless you get a better interrogator...
Like, I know it has to do with the master of a villain, but I am wondering why it is saying 'unidentified creature', I don't have culling of histfigs, so I am wondering, is this a bug or just me not understanding game mechanics?
You know there is a master somewhere, so the relations will need a placeholder for that position, and that's "unknown creature" until you manage to identify the master. Seems to be a fairly decent emulation of how real world criminals can admit to their involvement, but refuse to incriminate their buddies or their boss (especially when doing so can have a negative effect of one's life expectancy).
Post by: therahedwig on April 07, 2020, 07:19:45 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 07, 2020, 11:05:55 am
It's really just a matter of learning to understand what DF means with the various outcomes.
Post by: Lenin0Grib on April 08, 2020, 07:21:00 am
Sorry if incorrect topic.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 08, 2020, 07:32:10 am
Will be possible in steam version build dirt,glay,sand construction(fully terraforming)? I mean make hill from dirt or sand or rock and it not be constuction like stone wall or wood ramp.The forum convention is to mark questions to Toady with (lime) green to help him find them among the chatter when answering questions.
Sorry if incorrect topic.
Digging out and moving earth to make land fills etc. is not planned for the Premium release. The functionality for sand and clay deposits to gradually be mined out and movement of earth to change the landscape, as well as liquids other than magma and water is in the far future, but there's no reason to believe the commercial version will not present when that is done.
Post by: feelotraveller on April 08, 2020, 04:56:39 pm
Will be possible in steam version build dirt,glay,sand construction(fully terraforming)? I mean make hill from dirt or sand or rock and it not be constuction like stone wall or wood ramp.
Sorry if incorrect topic.
I think the only options for doing this currently are Obsidian Casting (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Obsidian_farming) and, given the right climate, Ice Casting (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Ice#Casting_ice).
Pretty sure there won't be any changes in this regard for the steam release. In the distant future, if it does change, it would likely take place during the map rewrite - but that's years away, at best, and not a change that I remember ever being discussed. (It might be useful to post about it in the suggestions forum?)
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 09, 2020, 03:12:56 am
Moving soil to build up mounds and fill up holes makes sense, while solid rock, glass, metal, etc. would either require magic or some extension of the obsidian casting method. In principle it should be possible to fill out a volume with shattered rock, but the current DF abstraction of rock "boulders" clashes with the real world pile of chunks of varying sizes, which might require a change of the DF implementation that might not be good for the normal game play situations.
Post by: MalroktheIII on April 10, 2020, 11:38:42 pm
1 Will we actually be able to domesticate animals on a civilization wide level?
2 If we can, will enemy exotic mounts and war animals be more common?
3 Will our dwarves be able to use mounts?
4 Going a bit further ahead, will magical procgen tamable animals and mounts exist with the magic update?
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 11, 2020, 01:44:06 am
I don’t know how relevant these are to the army update (or how many times these have been asked), but:1. I see no connection to planned activities here. It's logical as a long term goal, though.
1 Will we actually be able to domesticate animals on a civilization wide level?
2 If we can, will enemy exotic mounts and war animals be more common?
3 Will our dwarves be able to use mounts?
4 Going a bit further ahead, will magical procgen tamable animals and mounts exist with the magic update?
4. Logically yes, if you use the liberal interpretation of "with the magic update" to mean "enabled by the Myth & Magic work". It's highly unlikely this would make it in the competition for features in the first Myth & Magic release arc, though.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 11, 2020, 02:34:26 am
I don’t know how relevant these are to the army update (or how many times these have been asked), but:3. While mounted combat is already in Fortress Mode (I was attacked by horse-mounted dwarves just recently), actual management of a player's Fortress Mode cavalry would be a pretty big upgrade as it implies stables, training areas, new tactics and AI (get on horse, charge, attack, get off horse lead horse to stable - it's much easier for invaders who already start mounted).
1 Will we actually be able to domesticate animals on a civilization wide level?
2 If we can, will enemy exotic mounts and war animals be more common?
3 Will our dwarves be able to use mounts?
4 Going a bit further ahead, will magical procgen tamable animals and mounts exist with the magic update?
So, there is time scheduled after Steam for better sieges, but I expect it mostly be focussed on better enemy AI (and perhaps some improvement to crossbow dorf life expectancy if we're lucky).
Post by: therahedwig on April 11, 2020, 05:36:45 am
The army stuff is sure going to change the way people play. Not just the potential digging, but also the standing armies. Not to mention actually doing stuff with the mercenary companies... And all that just to keep things interesting... Though the villains stuff really does need polishing.
- Right now infiltrators have a very easy time flipping dwarves. In legends mode I often see that friends try to prevent position holders from becoming corrupt. Do you think the easy flipping is because dwarves are really bad at making friends still, or is it because of missing features?
- Will the digging invaders (if they get in) be on all armies like climbing is?
- Given the map rewrite is going to lead to various bits of DF understanding 3d better, do you think flier pathing is also going to improve?
Post by: voliol on April 11, 2020, 05:48:48 am
I don’t know how relevant these are to the army update (or how many times these have been asked), but:
1 Will we actually be able to domesticate animals on a civilization wide level?
2 If we can, will enemy exotic mounts and war animals be more common?
3 Will our dwarves be able to use mounts?
4 Going a bit further ahead, will magical procgen tamable animals and mounts exist with the magic update?
I imagine exactly what will be included in the army arc has not been decided upon yet, though the development page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) has some outlines. At some point these kinds of questions are better fit for the suggestions forum.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 11, 2020, 05:50:33 am
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on April 12, 2020, 07:48:47 pm
Quote from: DF talk 10 transcript
Capntastic: Do you have chickens now man?
Toady: Yeah. Chickens. And enlarged chickens. I guess it's kind of obligatory that we put giant chickens in the game, we have some other giant animals, you can have giant chickens. We need a Night of the Lepus or whatever the rabbit movie with giant rabbits ... giant chickens. And we'll have giant pigs.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 12, 2020, 07:52:48 pm
Is there a reason for the absence (if the DF wiki is to be believed) of giant and animal people versions of the domestic creatures (chickens, ducks, goats, geese, etc.)? And if so, is that reason one of design (so they won't be added later), or of convenience (there was some difficulty, but they will be added at some (presumably unspecified) later date)? I know it's a bit of a silly question, but I was listening to old DF talks and in episode 10, you talk about the addition of chickens and how there must be giant chickens as well at that point.Domestic animals currently don't have biomes, so they don't appear in the wild, so giant and animal person versions wouldn't appear even if they were in the game.Quote from: DF talk 10 transcriptCapntastic: Do you have chickens now man?
Toady: Yeah. Chickens. And enlarged chickens. I guess it's kind of obligatory that we put giant chickens in the game, we have some other giant animals, you can have giant chickens. We need a Night of the Lepus or whatever the rabbit movie with giant rabbits ... giant chickens. And we'll have giant pigs.
Because what biome is "domestic chicken" after all?
Hopefully will be a thing someday.
(There are, sadly, no giant chickens in the raws currently).
Post by: Bumber on April 12, 2020, 08:56:15 pm
Because what biome is "domestic chicken" after all?
Maybe plains, if we assume they escaped from a human settlement.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 12, 2020, 08:58:00 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 12, 2020, 09:17:13 pm
Humans settle in mountains, jungles, swamps and deserts too.Because what biome is "domestic chicken" after all?
Maybe plains, if we assume they escaped from a human settlement.
Much better to add a mechanic to have them adopt their local biome and start breeding wildly after escaping than set a fixed biome. Which is probably why it hasn't been done yet. It's not as simple as polar bear=someplace cold.
Post by: feelotraveller on April 12, 2020, 11:51:25 pm
Is there a reason for the absence (if the DF wiki is to be believed) of giant and animal people versions of the domestic creatures (chickens, ducks, goats, geese, etc.)? And if so, is that reason one of design (so they won't be added later), or of convenience (there was some difficulty, but they will be added at some (presumably unspecified) later date)? I know it's a bit of a silly question, but I was listening to old DF talks and in episode 10, you talk about the addition of chickens and how there must be giant chickens as well at that point.Domestic animals currently don't have biomes, so they don't appear in the wild, so giant and animal person versions wouldn't appear even if they were in the game.Quote from: DF talk 10 transcriptCapntastic: Do you have chickens now man?
Toady: Yeah. Chickens. And enlarged chickens. I guess it's kind of obligatory that we put giant chickens in the game, we have some other giant animals, you can have giant chickens. We need a Night of the Lepus or whatever the rabbit movie with giant rabbits ... giant chickens. And we'll have giant pigs.
Because what biome is "domestic chicken" after all?
Hopefully will be a thing someday.
(There are, sadly, no giant chickens in the raws currently).
It is false that domestic animals sui generis don't have biomes. From the wiki page on turkeys:
"Turkeys are a species of domesticated creature who can be brought on embark or found in the wild, inhabiting temperate wetlands."
And this is experience I have had in the game, having encountered several domestic animals in their wild versions.
I'm surprised you have never seen this!
Whatever the answer is to the question, it is not this...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 13, 2020, 12:29:24 am
What is cat's biome? It doesn't have one. Open up the raws, read for yourself. How many wild cats have you encountered, none, right?Is there a reason for the absence (if the DF wiki is to be believed) of giant and animal people versions of the domestic creatures (chickens, ducks, goats, geese, etc.)? And if so, is that reason one of design (so they won't be added later), or of convenience (there was some difficulty, but they will be added at some (presumably unspecified) later date)? I know it's a bit of a silly question, but I was listening to old DF talks and in episode 10, you talk about the addition of chickens and how there must be giant chickens as well at that point.Domestic animals currently don't have biomes, so they don't appear in the wild, so giant and animal person versions wouldn't appear even if they were in the game.Quote from: DF talk 10 transcriptCapntastic: Do you have chickens now man?
Toady: Yeah. Chickens. And enlarged chickens. I guess it's kind of obligatory that we put giant chickens in the game, we have some other giant animals, you can have giant chickens. We need a Night of the Lepus or whatever the rabbit movie with giant rabbits ... giant chickens. And we'll have giant pigs.
Because what biome is "domestic chicken" after all?
Hopefully will be a thing someday.
(There are, sadly, no giant chickens in the raws currently).
It is false that domestic animals sui generis don't have biomes. From the wiki page on turkeys:
"Turkeys are a species of domesticated creature who can be brought on embark or found in the wild, inhabiting temperate wetlands."
And this is experience I have had in the game, having encountered several domestic animals in their wild versions.
I'm surprised you have never seen this!
Whatever the answer is to the question, it is not this...
Turkey, peafowl and rabbit are the only animals in creature_domestic with biomes.
So, yes, for consistency, giant turkeys and bunny girls should be roaming the countryside and would be able to if they were added.
Post by: feelotraveller on April 13, 2020, 01:11:38 am
What is cat's biome? It doesn't have one. Open up the raws, read for yourself. How many wild cats have you encountered, none, right?Is there a reason for the absence (if the DF wiki is to be believed) of giant and animal people versions of the domestic creatures (chickens, ducks, goats, geese, etc.)? And if so, is that reason one of design (so they won't be added later), or of convenience (there was some difficulty, but they will be added at some (presumably unspecified) later date)? I know it's a bit of a silly question, but I was listening to old DF talks and in episode 10, you talk about the addition of chickens and how there must be giant chickens as well at that point.Domestic animals currently don't have biomes, so they don't appear in the wild, so giant and animal person versions wouldn't appear even if they were in the game.Quote from: DF talk 10 transcriptCapntastic: Do you have chickens now man?
Toady: Yeah. Chickens. And enlarged chickens. I guess it's kind of obligatory that we put giant chickens in the game, we have some other giant animals, you can have giant chickens. We need a Night of the Lepus or whatever the rabbit movie with giant rabbits ... giant chickens. And we'll have giant pigs.
Because what biome is "domestic chicken" after all?
Hopefully will be a thing someday.
(There are, sadly, no giant chickens in the raws currently).
It is false that domestic animals sui generis don't have biomes. From the wiki page on turkeys:
"Turkeys are a species of domesticated creature who can be brought on embark or found in the wild, inhabiting temperate wetlands."
And this is experience I have had in the game, having encountered several domestic animals in their wild versions.
I'm surprised you have never seen this!
Whatever the answer is to the question, it is not this...
Turkey, peafowl and rabbit are the only animals in creature_domestic with biomes.
So, yes, for consistency, giant turkeys and bunny girls should be roaming the countryside and would be able to if they were added.
Wrong again. Seen ducks in the wild (in game). And the wiki confirms it. Also seen many others like water buffalos, yaks, (one of) alpacas/lamas - always mix them up , and so on.
That a few domestic creatures lack a biome is frankly irrelevant here since I didn't say all domestic creatures have biomes but merely that the reason for the non-appearance of giant and animal people versions of the domestic creatures was not because of a lack of biome. (Happy to be corrected if anyone has seen giant turkeys or duck-men in game. ;) )
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on April 13, 2020, 05:10:21 am
Anyway, if it still is the case that some of them not occurring in the wild would be the reason for them not having giant/animal people varieties, then I guess my question could become, will they appear in the wild later (and then be given those varieties)? And of course, for those that do already appear in the wild, my original question could hold.
Post by: Schmaven on April 13, 2020, 12:49:55 pm
Post by: King Zultan on April 14, 2020, 04:02:05 am
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on April 17, 2020, 08:43:58 am
Cats in the wild might risk a serious catsplosion in world gen which could be problematic. I'm not sure how huge populations of off site critters are handled. But embarking on such an epicenter of cats would surely be an issue.Well, presumably this could be balanced a bit better than it was in the past. Also, the issue with catsplosions in the fort I think is that they are people's pets and so cannot be slaughtered without upsetting a lot of dwarves, but wild cats shouldn't be people's pets anyway, so I don't think they should be more of a problem than other types of wildlife.
Post by: Uthimienure on April 17, 2020, 12:14:22 pm
Post by: AnarchCassius on April 17, 2020, 02:05:51 pm
Cats in the wild might risk a serious catsplosion in world gen which could be problematic. I'm not sure how huge populations of off site critters are handled. But embarking on such an epicenter of cats would surely be an issue.
Not exactly. I've made dozens of worlds in the past few days to test creature distribution and aside from the handful who get tamed, join civilizations or become historic monsters there seems to be absolutely no changes in the overall populations of non-civilized species during worldgen. Numbers are the same range at 5 years and 250 years, which is notably not the case for civilized species.
Now once the game starts they do seem to change during off-site stuff and the worldgen could change with the new world generator (and it would be nice if it did), but as is, during worldgen at least, this wouldn't be an issue.
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on April 18, 2020, 05:40:19 am
Post by: King Mir on April 18, 2020, 03:50:53 pm
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 21, 2020, 10:06:54 pm
Post by: MCipher on April 21, 2020, 10:13:56 pm
What are the chances that there will be features pertaining to the end of the world in the Myth release? For instance, say the creation myth foretells of a time when a legendary monster consumes the world, or in a world that’s an un-hatched cosmic egg, a certain condition causes the egg to hatch, ending the world as we know it? And, as an extension of this question, would this post-end world be playable, a la FF6, or would it force the world into a ‘legends-only’ situation?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 21, 2020, 10:29:23 pm
Can we expect sentient wild populations (like animal-people and satyrs) to be more fleshed-out later in the development cycle?Not at all in this development cycle.
Later though, yes. Vague predictions of origins being fleshed out during Mythgen and perhaps more interesting societies in the society arc after that have been made.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 21, 2020, 10:33:30 pm
This is my first time posting to FotF, so sorry if I mess something up, eheh...(Based on previous fotf replies as I recall them, not copy/paste):
What are the chances that there will be features pertaining to the end of the world in the Myth release? For instance, say the creation myth foretells of a time when a legendary monster consumes the world, or in a world that’s an un-hatched cosmic egg, a certain condition causes the egg to hatch, ending the world as we know it? And, as an extension of this question, would this post-end world be playable, a la FF6, or would it force the world into a ‘legends-only’ situation?
Yes, world ending, or close enough apocalyptic events become possible with the map rewrite and so may be seen early in the Mythgen cycle. Prophets will also be used to predict oncoming disasters rather than just spouting random stuff like they do now.
The creation myth itself probably won't foretell anything though. It's called "Myth"gen, but it mainly deals with generating the actual creation of the world and all it's beings along with linking them logically to magic systems. So all stuff which happens before history generation (as we know it now) starts.
One interesting goal of Mythgen is for the player (and the world's villains) to effect actual change to the world. So even if a god is planning to hurl a fiery mountain at the land in the summer of 256 the player can manage to stop that from happening.
Post by: TheSteppeWolf on April 22, 2020, 04:14:19 am
How long is the development expected to last, and will it continue developing once it reaches full version?
Post by: therahedwig on April 22, 2020, 04:18:55 am
Post by: Egan_BW on April 22, 2020, 04:21:50 am
Post by: TheSteppeWolf on April 22, 2020, 04:26:26 am
I believe the plan is for Toady to keep working on DF until he dies.And what happens after? Would development stop or will someone inherit?
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 22, 2020, 04:28:20 am
I think it's been said somewhere that the code will be open-sourced if he peacefully passes away. Not sure where though...I believe the plan is for Toady to keep working on DF until he dies.And what happens after? Would development stop or will someone inherit?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 22, 2020, 04:39:35 am
Steam probably out 1Q 2021
Rest of 2021 to clean up Steam and finish off villains and improved Sieges (assuming improved Sieges isn't an 18 month rabbit hole in itself).
Big Wait, Myth Gen releases 2-3 years for the first, clean up, probably one or two more, so another a couple of years.
Law & Politics arc (starting scenarios). Same as Mythgen.
Moving Fortress Parts. Same again.
That's a good 15 years of work.
Oh gotta focus on the Economy at some point too. A whole new arc? Probably...
You get the idea.
Post by: voliol on April 22, 2020, 05:05:49 am
I think just about all of us use stairwells. And our dwarfs happily push wheelbarrows up and down them. I've tried this in real life and it's not quite as easy as it is for the dwarfs! Any plan to encourage the use of ramps by making stairs very difficult for wheelbarrows?”Questions” of this kind belong in the Suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) sub-forum ;)
Post by: LordBaal on April 22, 2020, 08:31:25 am
I believe the plan is for Toady to keep working on DF until he dies.He'll never die, He is the Toad Emperor of Dwarfkind.
Post by: Inarius on April 23, 2020, 01:43:58 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 23, 2020, 02:32:51 am
Post by: Egan_BW on April 23, 2020, 02:36:13 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 23, 2020, 04:23:28 am
Am I the only one who's not very excited for the Steam version? I mean I'll buy it just to support Toady more, but I'm so used to ASCII and the cruddy interface that I don't want to learn it again.No need to learn graphics. Just play with an ascii tileset as you've always done. One which comes with the game, another one, whatever you like. That's kind of the point of having a customizable game.
Now the interface, yeah, will have to wait and see what's going to happen there. Not sure if retro-fitting the old version will be an option.
Post by: kaijyuu on April 23, 2020, 04:42:44 am
Post by: therahedwig on April 23, 2020, 04:49:08 am
I mean, there's no indication that these will be tackled, but they're pretty obvious candidates, so my hopes are high.
Steam tends to get in more revenue on the basis that it is has a much better payment system if you're not an American, so I wouldn't worry too hard where you buy.
EDIT: oh, I am somewhat excited for next week now. A good pixel art world map is always a boon, and the DF worldmap tends to get the short end of the stick in most graphic packs for obvious reasons.
Post by: Inarius on April 24, 2020, 04:39:27 am
Quote
Similarly for the v, t, and l buttons in fort mode.
Yeah, i agree. I think i'll play in ASCII mode because i'm used to it, and somehow like it this way. But the interface ....well, i think i'd really like a better military screen, and a better definition especially between v/t/l and "i/p" zoning, too, as well as the building options (which one is "w" which one is not), and some things like that.
A lot can be done.
In Arena mode, you can select your world. But i don't think it changes anything. Why is this option existing ?
Another question (i hope it's not too suggestive), in Arena, too, we can create every type of creatures except the FB/Titans. I know it can be done otherwise by tweaking some options, but is it the way you wanted it, do you plan to change this ?
Post by: therahedwig on April 24, 2020, 05:19:47 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 24, 2020, 05:21:01 am
Huh, I always thought that the different saves selected meant you could actually get results from the different raws in the save files, and for example access the generated raws as well. It doesn't do that?Pretty sure it does.
Post by: Inarius on April 24, 2020, 03:58:43 pm
Post by: Ziusudra on April 24, 2020, 04:35:28 pm
Post by: Schmaven on April 24, 2020, 04:48:39 pm
I'm not sure I understand what you mean ?
I took it to mean you could mess with the raws for some entities differently in various generated worlds. Then in the arena, you could select which world, and by extension, which custom changes you want to test in the arena.
Post by: Inarius on April 24, 2020, 04:53:22 pm
That's why i said "by tweaking" in the second question.
"Mess with the raws" isn't in my opinion something a player should do by default. Without doing this i don't know what is the difference. At one point i thought i understood that, some day, you would call some histfig in Arena, but unsure of this.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 24, 2020, 07:32:00 pm
Ok. It was what i understood, then. Thanks.You are mistaken. The raws are written in plain English specifically for players with no coding experience to be able to mess with as much as they like. For the most part it's more of an advanced options menu for tweaking the simulation.
That's why i said "by tweaking" in the second question.
"Mess with the raws" isn't in my opinion something a player should do by default.
"Object testing arena" is for testing your objects. It's specifically a mode for modders to test their mods.
The way to think of it is like this: Toady made a tool so that he could test his combat systems without having to start a new world every time. It's pretty functional as it is, so he decided to let players use it too.
It's not there to confuse you, just as it's never likely to be made more "user friendly". It's just a tool he thought players would like to play with, and most do.
Post by: Inarius on April 25, 2020, 08:55:02 am
Quote
it's never likely to be made more "user friendly"Well i wouldn't be too sure of this. Especially the "never/aways" part, which, in DF, in not so definitive.
But, well, thanks for the information. We'll see !
Post by: LordBaal on April 25, 2020, 09:29:19 am
Post by: squamous on April 26, 2020, 10:49:59 pm
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
2. In the past, there was talk about implementing adventurers commanding armies and a general military update prior to the Big Wait but probably after the last of the villains stuff and the steam release. Is that on the table and if so what sort of features can we expect, if any? I for one am interested in the idea of the world as a whole having more cohesion in its military shenanigans. Being able to play a simple hunter in a city as two NPC generals fight over it seems like it'd be a great survival adventure.
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 26, 2020, 11:43:34 pm
The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
Post by: squamous on April 27, 2020, 01:13:29 am
The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 27, 2020, 01:26:09 am
As far as I understand the current plan is to assemble generated creatures from sprite parts. If the discussion about backward joints in the graphics implementation thread is any indication, they're prepared to let the graphics fail to represent some things correctly due to practical reasons, rather than restrict the set of variations generated.The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.
The slowdown of development has largely been handled by offloading the graphics production work to dedicated artists (but there's still need for Toady to both code the underlying functionality and to discuss with the artists and make decisions, so there's still a cost, but a much lower one).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 27, 2020, 01:35:13 am
2D is easier than 3D (no need to animate weird wrestling moves or simulate curly arm hair on 2D pixel art sprites, etc). Especially when you have dedicated artists being paid to do the work for you. Now is not the same as then.The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.
Post by: voliol on April 27, 2020, 05:06:12 am
Hopefully the system he writes now is robust enough that it won't need to be expanded much during the Big Wait, i.e. when new procedural creatures are next added. We'll see.Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 27, 2020, 06:15:51 am
Seems that if the system being made now can manage Night Trolls, Bogeymen, Forgotten Beasts, Titans, Experiments and Nightmares it should be able to manage any of the Mythgen proc gen critters.Hopefully the system he writes now is robust enough that it won't need to be expanded much during the Big Wait, i.e. when new procedural creatures are next added. We'll see.Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
Next difficult step will be "the centaur problem". How to merge creature A and creature B no matter what the creature. Hard enough in text and body-part raws, pixel art construction will be a real challenge (assuming that's something Toady wants to even think about trying).
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 27, 2020, 07:43:06 am
As far as I've heard, Toady has definitely thought about tackling the centaur problem, and I think he want's to solve it (while acknowledging that it won't be trivial). I think "when" is a more relevant question than "if" (and "now" would be a very poor answer...).Seems that if the system being made now can manage Night Trolls, Bogeymen, Forgotten Beasts, Titans, Experiments and Nightmares it should be able to manage any of the Mythgen proc gen critters.Hopefully the system he writes now is robust enough that it won't need to be expanded much during the Big Wait, i.e. when new procedural creatures are next added. We'll see.Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
Next difficult step will be "the centaur problem". How to merge creature A and creature B no matter what the creature. Hard enough in text and body-part raws, pixel art construction will be a real challenge (assuming that's something Toady wants to even think about trying).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 27, 2020, 08:01:37 am
Since post Mythgen (which we were talking about) is up to a decade away, I doubt anyone was thinking "now". :)As far as I've heard, Toady has definitely thought about tackling the centaur problem, and I think he want's to solve it (while acknowledging that it won't be trivial). I think "when" is a more relevant question than "if" (and "now" would be a very poor answer...).Seems that if the system being made now can manage Night Trolls, Bogeymen, Forgotten Beasts, Titans, Experiments and Nightmares it should be able to manage any of the Mythgen proc gen critters.Hopefully the system he writes now is robust enough that it won't need to be expanded much during the Big Wait, i.e. when new procedural creatures are next added. We'll see.Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
Next difficult step will be "the centaur problem". How to merge creature A and creature B no matter what the creature. Hard enough in text and body-part raws, pixel art construction will be a real challenge (assuming that's something Toady wants to even think about trying).
Post by: feelotraveller on April 27, 2020, 02:18:11 pm
The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.
There's been talk of 'parallel development' but we're yet to see what that amounts to. Perhaps a bit early to tell but as yet no mention of a single bug fix or any iteration of the unfinished bits of the villians arch.
Let's wait and see... :(
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 27, 2020, 04:11:32 pm
Villains isn't restarting until after Steam. "Parallel development" just refers to getting out bug fixes every so often during long development phases (like this one). But Toady already said that the first of those releases isn't coming until the graphics part of this development is done.The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.
There's been talk of 'parallel development' but we're yet to see what that amounts to. Perhaps a bit early to tell but as yet no mention of a single bug fix or any iteration of the unfinished bits of the villians arch.
Let's wait and see... :(
Post by: Beag on April 27, 2020, 07:22:58 pm
2. Currently the divination dice generate as practices of certain religions, eventually will our player adventurers be able to see the practices of their religion that they know about in the Q(info) screen?
3. Since in the steam release objects are now going to represented graphically how will statues and figurines be handled? Statues and figurines of certain things seem simple enough but what about ones depicting complicated scenes like historical events?
4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 27, 2020, 08:52:57 pm
4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?4. Which animation do you mean? Windmills are animated in vanilla currently.
Post by: Bumber on April 27, 2020, 11:41:34 pm
Dancing is currently represented as a status icon (♫). An example of an animation that's been added for premium release is gems sparkling.4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?4. Which animation do you mean? Windmills are animated in vanilla currently.
A dancing animation would have to be the sprite just jittering around a bit. Any moving of arms and legs wouldn't be feasible given the large number of creature sprites.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 28, 2020, 12:23:33 am
Which official screenshot had sparkling gems?Dancing is currently represented as a status icon (♫). An example of an animation that's been added for premium release is gems sparkling.4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?4. Which animation do you mean? Windmills are animated in vanilla currently.
A dancing animation would have to be the sprite just jittering around a bit. Any moving of arms and legs wouldn't be feasible given the large number of creature sprites.
All I've seen are Meph's draft ideas (and pages of people complaining about it). Pretty sure nothing has been said officially about adding extra animation yet.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 28, 2020, 04:33:44 am
My understanding (or is it wishful thinking?) was that "Parallel development" would be slightly more than bug fixes, and include minor tweaks and implementations. After the Premium release has switched over into the Big Wait, that would serve as "See, we're still here" indications. Once the initial graphics phase is done, I hope it will be a bit more that it will be later, as adjustments to the Stress system in particular would benefit from field testing to get several adjustment passes in, and there may be other adjustments that don't interact heavily with the UI overhaul (or that may be tackled before the overhaul starts) that could be candidates for release and general testing.Villains isn't restarting until after Steam. "Parallel development" just refers to getting out bug fixes every so often during long development phases (like this one). But Toady already said that the first of those releases isn't coming until the graphics part of this development is done.The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.
There's been talk of 'parallel development' but we're yet to see what that amounts to. Perhaps a bit early to tell but as yet no mention of a single bug fix or any iteration of the unfinished bits of the villians arch.
Let's wait and see... :(
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 28, 2020, 05:53:46 am
Although in this phase's case it includes fixes to the stress system, which may include potentially new minor features.
Post by: feelotraveller on April 29, 2020, 02:46:16 am
Maybe. But it was only promised as a way of avoiding fatal crash bugs lingering for several years. Nothing else.
What, like the raid equipment crash/savegame corruption bug? 2 years, another arc abandoned halfway through, and still going strong. But no time to deal with that now. And that was during a period of 'normal' development, i.e., not held up by graphics getting in the way of other game development.
I think it is fair enough to be concerned since the steam work crosses one of the core features of df development, the focus on gameplay in lieu of funky visual stuff. For some of us that was part of the attraction of df and what drew us here in the first place.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 29, 2020, 03:19:26 am
Yes. Bug fixes. Dunno what else you want to know. I'm just telling what it is this development arc is promised to contain. You believe whatever you like.Maybe. But it was only promised as a way of avoiding fatal crash bugs lingering for several years. Nothing else.
What, like the raid equipment crash/savegame corruption bug? 2 years, another arc abandoned halfway through, and still going strong. But no time to deal with that now. And that was during a period of 'normal' development, i.e., not held up by graphics getting in the way of other game development.
I think it is fair enough to be concerned since the steam work crosses one of the core features of df development, the focus on gameplay in lieu of funky visual stuff. For some of us that was part of the attraction of df and what drew us here in the first place.
Post by: feelotraveller on April 29, 2020, 03:51:29 am
What I am interested in is hearing Toady's thoughts on this question (my bolding in the below).
Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.
Particularly since as the game iterates and adds new stuff, or redoes it (a la mythgen or map rewrite) this will be an ongoing effort and not just a one and done.
Post by: Bumber on April 29, 2020, 01:05:54 pm
What I am interested in is hearing Toady's thoughts on this question (my bolding in the below).Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.
Particularly since as the game iterates and adds new stuff, or redoes it (a la mythgen or map rewrite) this will be an ongoing effort and not just a one and done.
The plan is that he has artists to do the sprites for him.
Post by: therahedwig on April 30, 2020, 07:45:33 am
Post by: Dorfthefort123 on April 30, 2020, 09:17:19 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 30, 2020, 04:01:25 pm
Will Events that depict battles in carvings be biased at all? Like a leader that died pathetically to a Beak dog. Will be told to have died to a Beak dog protecting his friends from the evil demon lord?Lime green text if that's a question for Toady.
And it's more of post for the suggestions board really.
--Oh, your text is kind of green. Maybe a bit greener would be better. Didn't notice at first.
Post by: feelotraveller on April 30, 2020, 06:18:31 pm
I'd been joking before that in the worst case scenario meph and mayday are a little slow and toady has more time to spent on fixing bugs and polishing... Oh the horror. ;)
So that's what he is doing at the moment!
(Or maybe if meph and mayday are a little slow he'll call whatever the current arc is 'good' and move on to the long awaited - but only just thought of - Procgen Beard Arc. I hope so. :-*)
Post by: Toady One on May 02, 2020, 12:15:21 am
Quote from: therahedwig
What does it mean when a villain confesses to following a plot under the influence of an unidentified creature?
Like, I know it has to do with the master of a villain, but I am wondering why it is saying 'unidentified creature', I don't have culling of histfigs, so I am wondering, is this a bug or just me not understanding game mechanics?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8120819#msg8120819
therahedwig (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8120820#msg8120820
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8120893#msg8120893
It doesn't use skill for that bit yet, as I recollect. It says unidentified creature sometimes because the interrogation subject simply doesn't know. This can happen if they've been handled - they can give up the identity they know for the handler but not the master, and there might be other situations. Of course, it could also be bugged, but I saw it a few times during testing where it made sense, though it could certainly be phrased in a less confusing fashion even then.
Quote from: Lenin0Grib
Will be possible in steam version build dirt,glay,sand construction(fully terraforming)? I mean make hill from dirt or sand or rock and it not be constuction like stone wall or wood ramp.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8121417#msg8121417
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8121670#msg8121670
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8121903#msg8121903
No plans for this for the steam/itch version at this point. It does make sense to be able to pile dirt, to some extent at least, but it doesn't even leave a trace when you dig right now, so there'd need to be other changes.
Quote from: MalroktheIII
1 Will we actually be able to domesticate animals on a civilization wide level?
2 If we can, will enemy exotic mounts and war animals be more common?
3 Will our dwarves be able to use mounts?
4 Going a bit further ahead, will magical procgen tamable animals and mounts exist with the magic update?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123146#msg8123146
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123172#msg8123172
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123220#msg8123220
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123226#msg8123226
I think the responses cover everything. We'd planned to do #1, but it was difficult and requires some heavy work on the underlying structures. Hard to say what'll be in on the first magic update; certainly magical critters are important generally. And dwarves w/ mounts would be some work, yeah, and we'd leaned against it somewhat early on, for whatever reason, but media properties have them ride goats or pigs now, and they've been 'resplendent on their war donkeys' in several ThreeToe rewards.
Quote from: therahedwig
- Right now infiltrators have a very easy time flipping dwarves. In legends mode I often see that friends try to prevent position holders from becoming corrupt. Do you think the easy flipping is because dwarves are really bad at making friends still, or is it because of missing features?
- Will the digging invaders (if they get in) be on all armies like climbing is?
- Given the map rewrite is going to lead to various bits of DF understanding 3d better, do you think flier pathing is also going to improve?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123227#msg8123227
The friends/access/etc. stuff was all put off. Villains have an easier time in post w.g. currently because the defensive networks don't function.
Hard to say exactly where digging will go, but yeah, I imagine sometimes they won't be able to dig through solid stone. That should be fine, especially if we go through with some of the adjacent additions like them messing with your surface in various ways if you wall yourself up.
Not sure about flier pathing - it's a buffer/FPS problem that I don't think the map rewrite fundamentally helps with. We have the connected component calculation for walkers because most regular creatures are walkers. Getting away from that entirely is difficult (we do it now locally in combat/escape situations which is why climbers etc. work, but that doesn't work globally), and doing multiple connected component types is slow/memheavy.
Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
Is there a reason for the absence (if the DF wiki is to be believed) of giant and animal people versions of the domestic creatures (chickens, ducks, goats, geese, etc.)? And if so, is that reason one of design (so they won't be added later), or of convenience (there was some difficulty, but they will be added at some (presumably unspecified) later date)? I know it's a bit of a silly question, but I was listening to old DF talks and in episode 10, you talk about the addition of chickens and how there must be giant chickens as well at that point.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124138#msg8124138
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124165#msg8124165
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124167#msg8124167
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124178#msg8124178
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124267#msg8124267
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124278#msg8124278
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124291#msg8124291
Whatsifsowhatsit (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124352#msg8124352
Oversight in some cases, lack of biome in others (depending on wherever you think they come from.) Since animal people origins are part of the myth generator prototype already, it's possible the origin question may determine how it is supposed to work - it would be possible to figure out how to apply the animal person variation at later stages of the game, provided the raw file in question was tagged/known to be compatible. Then we can do it case by case with some extra work, and get giant person-person bugs along the way.
Quote from: Uthimienure
I think just about all of us use stairwells. And our dwarfs happily push wheelbarrows up and down them. I've tried this in real life and it's not quite as easy as it is for the dwarfs! Any plan to encourage the use of ramps by making stairs very difficult for wheelbarrows?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129427#msg8129427
This came up at the time. Not sure if it was an issue with setting up the pathing costs or something else, but it didn't happen.
Quote from: Iä! RIAKTOR!
What exotic pets may be pack animals? Why they don't in current version?
It uses the PACK_ANIMAL tag. I'm not sure which ones have it - probably not (m)any of them, since it doesn't come up much and I overlooked it. But theoretically I should add the tag to more of them so e.g. the elves can use them to trade.
Quote from: King Mir
Where will the signs be for non-rectangle stockpiles? Will discontinuous stockpiles have more than one sign? Will stockpiles with sections removed still have a fence around the new perimeter? Will adjacent stockpiles have zero, one, or two fences between them? How will it look if I checker my stockpiles? (this is useful to get around the wheelbarrow limit for rock stockpiles).
We're still trying different things for disconnected piles. Some of the tree/water boundary fences look silly, but others don't. Sign will probably be on the top left, though I don't recall if it hits top or left first if the pile is an odd shape. Right now the simple thing for adjacent stockpiles was two fences, since it goes tile by tile. That might change.
Quote from: MaxTheFox
Can we expect sentient wild populations (like animal-people and satyrs) to be more fleshed-out later in the development cycle?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129341#msg8129341
Yeah, I expect the myth release will force at least some change here, since they'll be given their origins and more of a situation. But also yeah, the entity rewrites will also be needed to really get it properly managed.
Quote from: MCipher
What are the chances that there will be features pertaining to the end of the world in the Myth release? For instance, say the creation myth foretells of a time when a legendary monster consumes the world, or in a world that’s an un-hatched cosmic egg, a certain condition causes the egg to hatch, ending the world as we know it? And, as an extension of this question, would this post-end world be playable, a la FF6, or would it force the world into a ‘legends-only’ situation?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129342#msg8129342
Yeah, it's part of the deal. It's not really the end of the world if you can play afterward, depending on what you mean, but both types may be available. Like the demon timer we got rid of, it could be that an actual world end is just too annoying for players, but the current plan is to go ahead and just put a bow on the world if it actually comes to nothing. Certainly there should be sufficient warning etc. so the game doesn't just essentially boot you to desktop for no apparent reason. On the other hand, if the world just comes to a fiery ruin with a few people left, then you should be able to play one.
Quote from: TheSteppeWolf
How long is the development expected to last, and will it continue developing once it reaches full version?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129421#msg8129421
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129423#msg8129423
TheSteppeWolf (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129424#msg8129424
MaxTheFox: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129425#msg8129425
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129426#msg8129426
I think the replies cover it well enough. Just going to keep working.
Quote from: Inarius
In Arena mode, you can select your world. But i don't think it changes anything. Why is this option existing ?
Another question (i hope it's not too suggestive), in Arena, too, we can create every type of creatures except the FB/Titans. I know it can be done otherwise by tweaking some options, but is it the way you wanted it, do you plan to change this ?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130542#msg8130542
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130543#msg8130543
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130799#msg8130799
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130830#msg8130830
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130833#msg8130833
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130899#msg8130899
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8131114#msg8131114
LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8131132#msg8131132
Each save up to this point has held its own raw files, and sometimes people use different mods and so forth - we weren't sure where that was going to go way back when, so we let you pick ones you use in the arena. But it's mostly pointless, the way it works now.
Similarly, way back when, FBs were supposed to be kind of a surprise! So you can't make them in the arena. Same reason for the [ARENA_RESTRICTED] tag on the 'new' subterranean creatures, which are only X number of years old now. The game is slowly becoming whatever it is, and once there are editors and all of whatever, that'll seem like a strange priority indeed, even broken. But it made enough sense back whenever.
Quote from: Ziusudra
With the UI update has any consideration been given to limiting the line length of text? Perhaps with an init.txt option?
What is the context here? Before, aside from the many screens stuck at 80 because they weren't updated, everything was on the same grid and so it doesn't seem to matter much. Or are you talking about making it less than the width of the grid for some reason? I don't know yet what's going to happen more broadly yet.
Quote from: squamous
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?
2. In the past, there was talk about implementing adventurers commanding armies and a general military update prior to the Big Wait but probably after the last of the villains stuff and the steam release. Is that on the table and if so what sort of features can we expect, if any? I for one am interested in the idea of the world as a whole having more cohesion in its military shenanigans. Being able to play a simple hunter in a city as two NPC generals fight over it seems like it'd be a great survival adventure.
MaxTheFox: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8131990#msg8131990
squamous (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132009#msg8132009
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132013#msg8132013
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132016#msg8132016
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132082#msg8132082
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132104#msg8132104
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132136#msg8132136
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132142#msg8132142
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132333#msg8132333
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132382#msg8132382
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132691#msg8132691
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132706#msg8132706
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133152#msg8133152
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133161#msg8133161
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133167#msg8133167
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133310#msg8133310
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133649#msg8133649
We didn't change night trolls when we did the graphics for them - certain details are simply not depicted. I'm not sure any future additions will need to be limited. Certainly it's more work and there needs to be more coordination.
The dev page has our plans for armies to the extent we've mentioned them, pretty much. It's still the plan. Steam/itch -> finish villains/armies/adv-medical/etc. -> myth/magic/map rewrite.
Quote from: Beag
1. Since you will be adding a tutorial to fortress mode to help new players in the steam release will adventure mode also be getting a tutorial?
2. Currently the divination dice generate as practices of certain religions, eventually will our player adventurers be able to see the practices of their religion that they know about in the Q(info) screen?
3. Since in the steam release objects are now going to represented graphically how will statues and figurines be handled? Statues and figurines of certain things seem simple enough but what about ones depicting complicated scenes like historical events?
4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132552#msg8132552
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132606#msg8132606
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132626#msg8132626
1. It's too early to commit to any specifics on this, since there are a few stages beforehand that will determine where it goes.
2. It's reasonable to add more information there, but it all takes time. Not sure what will be next.
3. We have one tile for each now, could end up with a few more. We likely won't try to depict the exact scenes right now.
4. We haven't planned to do more than they currently do. As Bumber states, there are a lot of creatures, and animating all their dances isn't feasible.
Quote from: Dorfthefort123
Will Events that depict battles in carvings be biased at all? Like a leader that died pathetically to a Beak dog. Will be told to have died to a Beak dog protecting his friends from the evil demon lord?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133817#msg8133817
Yeah, it's a reasonable suggestion. We're just getting started with what little dishonesties and mistakes our villains and spies can manage, and expanding out from that, it's always tricky storing that extra layer of information.
Post by: Ziusudra on May 02, 2020, 12:35:44 am
Yes, less than the width. With widescreen being the default and ever increasing resolutions the game can have lines of text that are a few times longer than is comfortable to read. Even the default of 80 is difficult when there is a lot of it. And the current zoom functionality doesn't adjust on the fly at all well.Quote from: ZiusudraWith the UI update has any consideration been given to limiting the line length of text? Perhaps with an init.txt option?
What is the context here? Before, aside from the many screens stuck at 80 because they weren't updated, everything was on the same grid and so it doesn't seem to matter much. Or are you talking about making it less than the width of the grid for some reason? I don't know yet what's going to happen more broadly yet.
Post by: LordBaal on May 02, 2020, 06:41:48 am
Post by: therahedwig on May 02, 2020, 06:43:23 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 02, 2020, 07:32:03 am
Thanks for the answers! Ah, if there's no real defence system for villains at all, I do feel a little better about not having the tavern open...The problem with not having the tavern open is that the Outpost Liaison then hangs around the embark wagon to be slaughtered by the next siege (or just picking a losing fight with local wildlife, which happened to me, and the bugger was queen as well, so I immediately got saddled with a monarch). At least official civ members ought to be allowed in the tavern regardless of settings.
Post by: therahedwig on May 02, 2020, 10:31:38 am
The other thing that makes not having a tavern open annoying is when inexplicably all your migrants have skill with an instrument you can't make or trade for :D
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 02, 2020, 11:06:53 am
Really? Mine just mills around the nobles' quarters. But I wouldn't say no to more granularity in visitor settings, we might need to take that to the suggestion forums, though :)I could have had bad luck so the trade liaison happened to catch the expedition leader outside and then remained there. The expedition leaders generally don't get offices in my fortresses as they're not required.
The other thing that makes not having a tavern open annoying is when inexplicably all your migrants have skill with an instrument you can't make or trade for :D
Post by: ror6ax on May 02, 2020, 03:30:13 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 02, 2020, 04:18:40 pm
How is UX design been going?If you intended the question for Toady you should attract his attention by marking it in (lime) green.
Otherwise, he's still busy with the graphics, and so hasn't started on the UI side yet, although I've seen no reports on what conclusions Threetoe has drawn. I'd guess they've made a huge list of work candidates, though.
Post by: Su on May 02, 2020, 08:23:31 pm
Procgen Beard Arc
that's already in, isn't it? =]
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 03, 2020, 03:06:20 am
No. It doesn't specify the type of braiding used, the color of beads and cord (nor their placement), or the types and materials of the various tools used to cut and groom the beards :PProcgen Beard Arc
that's already in, isn't it? =]
Post by: LordBaal on May 03, 2020, 08:18:16 am
The problem with not having the tavern open is that the Outpost Liaison then hangs around the embark wagon to be slaughtered by the next siege...What kind of men doesn't disband the wagon to make a distillery right away?!
For Toady, so far regarding the steam version, have you been forced or for practicality sake's have to make a compromise in the dwarf fortress development, feature wise I mean?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 03, 2020, 08:45:09 am
Officially Kitfox gave him complete control. The 30-40 year timeline hasn't changed (but UI improvements and graphics and stuff were brought forwards).The problem with not having the tavern open is that the Outpost Liaison then hangs around the embark wagon to be slaughtered by the next siege...What kind of men doesn't disband the wagon to make a distillery right away?!
For Toady, so far regarding the steam version, have you been forced or for practicality sake's have to make a compromise in the dwarf fortress development, feature wise I mean?
Unofficially, well, who knows, not likely to just announce it here though, is he?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 03, 2020, 05:26:02 pm
Wyy bother disassembling the wagon when a tree will have been felled by the time the wagon has been pulled apart? It's just wasted effort better spent elsewhere (e.g. collecting plants that can then be brewed in a still made from tree wood), unless you've got a treeless embark. Eventually the gobbo invaders (or necro experiments) will free the wagon logs, though.The problem with not having the tavern open is that the Outpost Liaison then hangs around the embark wagon to be slaughtered by the next siege...What kind of men doesn't disband the wagon to make a distillery right away?!
:
Post by: Doorkeeper on May 07, 2020, 07:40:09 pm
In the world pics, I can see sites that are normally hidden initially by default (lairs, vaults, labyrinths, etc.). Presumably you did not travel to all of them in adv mode and just used a setting to unhid them all, in order to showcase their sprites. Is this setting a feature that we can expect to utilize in the next release?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 07, 2020, 08:14:23 pm
Really cool graphics of the world map in the latest devlog. The swirling, blending evil ocean on the far west coast caught my eye. Thanks to all the artists and contributors.I only see caves which are a standard Advanced Worldgen option to make visible. Are there vaults and labyrinths visible on this map?
In the world pics, I can see sites that are normally hidden initially by default (lairs, vaults, labyrinths, etc.). Presumably you did not travel to all of them in adv mode and just used a setting to unhid them all, in order to showcase their sprites. Is this setting a feature that we can expect to utilize in the next release?
--edit
Thought I spotted a cave bit can't see it any more. The thing is the desert is presumably a tomb, not a vault, right?
--edit
Ah, it's a shrine according to wiki map legend.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Map_legend
-editedit
Ok, spotted the labyrinth, sorry.
Post by: Doorkeeper on May 07, 2020, 09:15:18 pm
edit:
Post by: Lemunde on May 11, 2020, 08:45:09 pm
Post by: Su on May 12, 2020, 05:30:46 am
previous mentions of golden salve in this thread were in the context of it being a magical item.
Post by: voliol on May 12, 2020, 07:09:41 am
I think I brought this up as a suggestion a while back but seeing as you're working on graphical stuff now, are there any plans for adding icons for items and creatures in menu screens next to their names to better differentiate them from each other?
Toady reads all the suggestions on the suggestions sub-forum (at least the top posts). While getting response is tempting, it would be preferable if direct suggestions like this do not clog up FotF, especially when the expected answer is ”perhaps”. :)
Either way you suggestion is a GUI feature, and currently Toady should be working on pre-GUI graphics support; they* haven’t gotten to it yet and I doubt any final decisions have been made.
*Toady and Threetoe, the latter of whom has supposedly been researching the GUI redesign for some while.
Post by: evil_pigeon on May 16, 2020, 09:15:43 am
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on May 16, 2020, 10:23:56 am
Are there any plans on how other factions or elements can change biomes like the towers now can? Like elves expanding forests?
The magical parts of it I know have been touched on a bit at least, Threetoe's story "Forest Befouled (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_forest_befouled.html)" and the follow-up answer in DFtalk comes to mind if that's of interest, though it's from a while back so I'm sure plans have been refined since as the magic arc draws closer (such as how good/evil regions are stated to be expanded/changing into sphere-based ones).
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_16_transcript.html
Rainseeker: Question here from Gorobay, he asks: 'If befoulment, as in Threetoe's story Forest Befouled, will be an interaction?'
Toady: Well that was a pretty messed up story if I remember that ending there, where the poor ... there were various dead things ... Yeah, so it kind of leads to the main overall question, like 'Where did these evil regions come from?' Some of them probably started out that way, but ... they obviously have to arise during play, I think, because that would be very interesting if you've got some kind of evil thing sweeping over the landscape or some horrifying event that happened that caused a whole place to turn corrupted in some way. So there are various ways to consider it and if he means would befoulment be an interaction in the sense of interactions ... he must be talking about interactions as we've been talking about them, as in a kind of magical effect that changes the world, and I think that's the best way to do it, because it's either that or it's some kind of scripted thing that says 'This region became evil' which is kind of how they're made now right at the beginning of the world; it just picks some regions and makes some evil.
But if it has internal consistency to it then it can lead to all sorts of interesting things as ... you know, it's kind of how we've strived to make all of our mechanics so that they all lock together, so if there's an interaction somehow, like if you take the evil thing example, that some horrifying thing happens - I mean there would have to be some kind of like 'How horrible is this event?' meter; in that story I don't remember quite what it was but it was bad, what happened in the water, there was something very bad that happened in the water in that story, that you are welcome to read - and that would count as ... The game should be able to recognize - especially if its matters of life and death, it's the easiest thing to recognize - 'Something bad just happened to a bunch of innocent critters' and that means that the interaction ... what I was getting at is that the interaction, then, there could be a regional interaction that has a trigger of something happening - there might have to be other conditions because you don't want it to happen necessarily all the time - but if something horrifying happens, whether or not it's a specific sacrifice or just some bad event, then what it could do is call down the effect with the target being the region, and the effect would be some kind of evilification procedure. Then that would go ahead and happen and what that would do would be to put evil regions on the same footing as cursed individuals, meaning that there would be a rhyme and reason now to what's happening, and I think that's definitely how it's going to go when we finally do answer the question about where all these evil regions came from; there are going to be procedures by which they're generated.
I think ... it's not just that, right? There could be ones that still are starting as evil regions because I think that's also a traditional way of doing things; 'This place is bad, it's always been bad, and no one asks why' and there is no why, right, there's just a bad area, but it's more interesting when there's a story behind it so generally I think that's how it'll actually go. We've already got some regional effects that are the region acting on people in the region, like something that ... you could make an evil region that gives you blisters or make an evil region that curses you for the rest of your life so that you can never perform a skill roll again, which is bad news, so you wouldn't go there. But the regions ... it isn't in now, but the region could just as easily be a target for that kind of thing, it's just the sort of thing that needs the will to push through the couple or three days it takes to do it, and that's it. Hopefully that answers the question ...
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 16, 2020, 11:37:30 am
Are there any plans on how other factions or elements can change biomes like the towers now can? Like elves expanding forests?Civs have been able to reduce savagery to eventually enable settlement for a very long time, so one additional case is already present.
Myth & Magic will (gradually) introduce all kinds of effects, and as spheres replace the cruder evilness/savagery scales they ought to have their own effects (not all as spreading biome affecting influences: some might affect critters [creativity, for instance] or act through other avenues). A water sphere effect could for instance increase the rainfall and introduce/strengthen aquifers, lakes, and ponds, with the first eventually resulting in a biome change (and new/expanded lakes would as well). Sources of sphere effects have been discussed in the past, including one time major rituals, ongoing magic/religions activities, artifacts, critters (like some of the current demons, but with a broader range of spheres, and not necessarily inherently evil), divine (or other god level power creature) intervention, geographical features (the famed cosmic egg shell could definitely spread some sphere effect(s)).
Note that some of the specifics mentioned here are my own speculations on what effects might be: Toady may have other ideas, and what eventually gets implemented (and when) is yet another thing.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 17, 2020, 05:52:56 pm
World history can take a long time to generate. Which is fine, I like my highly detailed histories and characters and know how to cut things down and speed things up if I really wanted to. Are there any different, faster ways of achieving this that you've thought of, or have actually experimented with in side projects that could output the same amount of detail with the same amount of functionality (ability to easily export to other viewers, etc)? That's just a hypothetical tech question of course.
Come Mythgen, you maybe said once (I may have dreamt it) that it'd be good to be able to browse the Mythgen output during history worldgen. To be able to do anything with the game during the latter stages of history generation would be very cool, technically what possible ways are there to go about doing this?
Post by: eightball8776 on May 19, 2020, 02:16:16 pm
2. Will some worlds have deities be historical figures that exist within the world as opposed to how the are now and if that is possible, will it be possible to encounter and fight them in fortress or adventurer mode?
3. Is becoming a deity in adventurer mode a possibility?
Post by: Su on May 19, 2020, 02:53:27 pm
3. Is becoming a deity in adventurer mode a possibility?
you can only impersonate in the current version. seems like the sort of thing you'd expect to make it in to the magic release though.
Post by: voliol on May 19, 2020, 03:31:27 pm
1. Are there plans as part of the magic update for deities to interact with the world beyond the currently present demon bindings and curses?
2. Will some worlds have deities be historical figures that exist within the world as opposed to how the are now and if that is possible, will it be possible to encounter and fight them in fortress or adventurer mode?
3. Is becoming a deity in adventurer mode a possibility?
Yes, yes and yes, all three of these are planned for the myths&magics arc. Lots of other features are too, though, and not all will make it through to the first release. We’ll see what happens, it’s a few years into the future so I imagine it’s still up in the air even for the brothers Adams.
Post by: Toady One on June 01, 2020, 06:14:50 pm
Quote from: Ziusudra
Quote from: Toady OneYes, less than the width. With widescreen being the default and ever increasing resolutions the game can have lines of text that are a few times longer than is comfortable to read. Even the default of 80 is difficult when there is a lot of it. And the current zoom functionality doesn't adjust on the fly at all well.Quote from: ZiusudraWith the UI update has any consideration been given to limiting the line length of text? Perhaps with an init.txt option?
What is the context here? Before, aside from the many screens stuck at 80 because they weren't updated, everything was on the same grid and so it doesn't seem to matter much. Or are you talking about making it less than the width of the grid for some reason? I don't know yet what's going to happen more broadly yet.
Ah, yeah, this should be feasible.
Quote from: LordBaal
For Toady, so far regarding the steam version, have you been forced or for practicality sake's have to make a compromise in the dwarf fortress development, feature wise I mean?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8134881#msg8134881
Obviously there is a different workflow now, but we haven't started a new feature arc yet and I'm not sure how much slower that'll be generally, if at all. We haven't cut or changed anything up to this point, aside from now working on artwork rather than villains/army stuff. I've stated many times in the past that I chose ASCII originally to make sure development was moving smoothly, and that was certainly correct for somebody without artists. I've also stated that I'm not much of a manager, and that bringing on artists would be difficult for me, but here we are! So hopefully things work out.
I should reiterate, not because of this discussion, but because of a few others floating around, that this decision was not taken lightly. Being able to access healthcare, even with a slowed development process, will be better for DF development overall.
Similarly, if you mean 'forced' in terms of the publisher relationship, and again speaking in the context of broader discussions, literally the only hard power they have is over artwork and music, in terms of what they pay for. That was the deal, and we haven't experienced any problems there -- I think it was probably a bit more work volume than they expected (in terms of gibbons alone, who could have anticipated, ha ha), but the response has been positive, so that's been cool. Certainly there is a power dynamic in terms of everything going smoothly and getting stuff up on the platforms, etc., but there haven't been problems there either. The pace has been fine - everybody's happy currently. A year from now, people will likely want the ship to have sailed, and that's true of us too! Any changes caused by that will just be in terms of the first-release scope of UI/art etc. stuff that we get done to get the game up and running. We want to make as many accessibility/art/etc. changes as we can, and that work can go on forever - so it'll have to stop at some point, just practically speaking. Then we'll release and keep working. Beyond that, I'm not sure what the dynamic will be.
Quote from: Doorkeeper
In the world pics, I can see sites that are normally hidden initially by default (lairs, vaults, labyrinths, etc.). Presumably you did not travel to all of them in adv mode and just used a setting to unhid them all, in order to showcase their sprites. Is this setting a feature that we can expect to utilize in the next release?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8136974#msg8136974
Doorkeeper (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8136982#msg8136982
Ah, that was just me in debug mode, yeah. It isn't something that has been added as an official feature, though that would be a reasonable enough thing, for the campaign makers and cartographers and such especially.
Quote from: Lemunde
I think I brought this up as a suggestion a while back but seeing as you're working on graphical stuff now, are there any plans for adding icons for items and creatures in menu screens next to their names to better differentiate them from each other?
Yeah, that has come up, and we're hoping to do some things along those lines. We won't know specifically what we're up for until the restructuring process is further along.
Quote from: Su
i know golden salve is currently useless as anything other than a trade good [and considering that crafts are much easier to make, one might say it's useless even for that], but does it have anything planned? based on the name i'm guessing it'd be part of the healthcare industry.
previous mentions of golden salve in this thread were in the context of it being a magical item.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8139011#msg8139011
Like any possible final form of the purring maggot, the golden salve is a perpetual loose end. Dunno how it'll change. Health-wise, the new divination healing effects have certain opened up some possibilities, but the doctors would still need to understand it.
Quote from: evil_pigeon
Are there any plans on how other factions or elements can change biomes like the towers now can? Like elves expanding forests?
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8140983#msg8140983
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8141018#msg8141018
I don't have much to add to the replies. The myth/magic/map-rewrite stuff is going to open all the doors there, and with the theme of change being central to that process, I expect a lot of additions in particular here.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
World history can take a long time to generate. Which is fine, I like my highly detailed histories and characters and know how to cut things down and speed things up if I really wanted to. Are there any different, faster ways of achieving this that you've thought of, or have actually experimented with in side projects that could output the same amount of detail with the same amount of functionality (ability to easily export to other viewers, etc)? That's just a hypothetical tech question of course.
Come Mythgen, you maybe said once (I may have dreamt it) that it'd be good to be able to browse the Mythgen output during history worldgen. To be able to do anything with the game during the latter stages of history generation would be very cool, technically what possible ways are there to go about doing this?
The output detail comes from the process, so I'm not sure if this is just an optimization question? I don't have any special way to make the same amount of detail appear any faster. I'm sure there are a billion different ways to construct a history generation process, and I'm sure some of those would be faster, but I don't have any specific sweeping ideas there that I haven't implemented already, or which haven't been grouped in with say the map rewrite or the entity rewrite - certain parts of those will probably end up being faster, but there'll also be a corresponding increase in the level of detail which makes it a wash.
Mythgen and history are conceived of as happening in strict sequence currently, yeah, so we were hoping some elements of mythgen could be at least displayed during worldgen, to pass the time if anything, and making it interactive somehow would be preferable. Naturally if we want you to be able to go through some sort of baby legends mode while worldgen is still chugging away as fast as possible, we'd have to do some work to make the interface responsive - this is either thread territory, or it requires at least a more broken up set of calls (it does a year at a time now before reading commands, as I'm sure you've all noticed.) It's all on the table.
I'm not sure if you meant anything beyond this - there are more extreme ideas about altering worldgen mid-process, but that's more of a mode question. We still don't have any good "put the cat back in the bag" ideas about restarting worldgen, but while worldgen is active the first time, sky's the limit, really, in terms of pausing it and messing around, or whatever else. But we haven't settled on anything, other than getting some broader myth info out to people during history generation.
Quote from: eightball8776
1. Are there plans as part of the magic update for deities to interact with the world beyond the currently present demon bindings and curses?
2. Will some worlds have deities be historical figures that exist within the world as opposed to how the are now and if that is possible, will it be possible to encounter and fight them in fortress or adventurer mode?
3. Is becoming a deity in adventurer mode a possibility?
Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8142571#msg8142571
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8142594#msg8142594
Not much to add again here - all there have been considered and are likely in some way, even early on, but we also have nailed anything down.
Post by: clinodev on June 01, 2020, 07:07:16 pm
Strange how few questions you've gotten the last two months.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 01, 2020, 07:50:36 pm
Thanks as always for the replies!There's a whole separate official thread dedicated to the current graphics development so not much to ask here really.
Strange how few questions you've gotten the last two months.
Post by: LordBaal on June 02, 2020, 04:43:52 am
Post by: FAA on June 02, 2020, 07:33:46 am
Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.
I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.
EDIT: I'm not a programmer, but I can make several realistic-looking locations for Cataclysm in a single day. I think that something like that, perhaps using JSON like Cataclysm, might make things easier and faster for Toady.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 02, 2020, 09:22:47 am
Is there a chance that we will see some changes to town and building generation sometime in the next update/s? The world of DF is truly massive, but towns, fortresses etc. completely lack any flavour - taverns, for example, are just some simple furniture, sometimes a bartender, some drunks, they never feel realistic or alive, and they're always too similar. This makes the adv mode rather unappealing.(Lime green, the recommended color, is easier on the eyes than the green you used, but it will still work as a Toady attractor).
Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.
I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.
Not in the near future. The Myth & Magic arc (after the Big Wait, some 5 years or so from now) will be forced to rework human settlements to allow for the human race to be playable in fully mundane worlds. The map rewrite taking place during the Big Wait will probably introduce changes that invalidates some of the current logic for settlements anyway (at least it will allow for new things that don't exist and thus aren't generated generated currently), so they will probably have to be reworked for that reason alone, at least to some extent.
However, extensive work on one piece of the game (in this case site generation) by necessity has to come at the expense of work on any of the other urgent changes to the game when the game is a single programmer project. That said, Toady is known to spiral away on tangents and spend a fair bit of effort on seemingly minor details, but he probably won't know if that will be the case until it happens.
It can be noted that the necro towers and kobold caves were reworked as part of 0.47.01 because they had to be to handle the contents in that release, but also that Toady was shorter of time than usual due to the Premium release obligations, and those obligations are not getting less pressing when there's less time left.
Post by: UselessMcMiner on June 02, 2020, 10:10:02 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 02, 2020, 11:11:49 am
In adventure mode, will it ever be possible for Lovers to become pregnant instead of having to get married? Also when will it be possible for your dwarves to have things like extramarital affairs?Part of the Villains update was to allow for cheating on the spouse, as well as having multiple lovers (and remarry, after an divorce, which was introduced as well, or the death of the spouse). In adventure mode adventurers can't get pregnant (or impregnate) because they're currently of a particular adventurer asexual kind. This will presumably be addressed at some time in the post Myth & Magic future, and there's no reason to assume the current looser restrictions won't apply to adventurers at that time (although there will also be a Law & Customs arc that may well include various legal restrictions and repercussions on marriage and extra maritial sex, varying with different cultures, probably ranging from "personal matter" to mandatory "death to any who deviate from the specified path" [possibly with the standard range of exceptions for the upper echelons when it comes to enforcement]).
Post by: UselessMcMiner on June 02, 2020, 01:08:06 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on June 02, 2020, 01:15:01 pm
Post by: Doorkeeper on June 03, 2020, 01:16:14 am
Is there a chance that we will see some changes to town and building generation sometime in the next update/s? The world of DF is truly massive, but towns, fortresses etc. completely lack any flavour - taverns, for example, are just some simple furniture, sometimes a bartender, some drunks, they never feel realistic or alive, and they're always too similar. This makes the adv mode rather unappealing.(Lime green, the recommended color, is easier on the eyes than the green you used, but it will still work as a Toady attractor).
Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.
I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.
Not in the near future. The Myth & Magic arc (after the Big Wait, some 5 years or so from now) will be forced to rework human settlements to allow for the human race to be playable in fully mundane worlds. The map rewrite taking place during the Big Wait will probably introduce changes that invalidates some of the current logic for settlements anyway (at least it will allow for new things that don't exist and thus aren't generated generated currently), so they will probably have to be reworked for that reason alone, at least to some extent.
However, extensive work on one piece of the game (in this case site generation) by necessity has to come at the expense of work on any of the other urgent changes to the game when the game is a single programmer project. That said, Toady is known to spiral away on tangents and spend a fair bit of effort on seemingly minor details, but he probably won't know if that will be the case until it happens.
It can be noted that the necro towers and kobold caves were reworked as part of 0.47.01 because they had to be to handle the contents in that release, but also that Toady was shorter of time than usual due to the Premium release obligations, and those obligations are not getting less pressing when there's less time left.
Most site/structure changes seem to happen when they're required to by other features focal to the dev arc, like kobold caves (for artifacts) and barrows in neco sites that are meant to house the experiment critters. Obviously this isn't always the case; the new necro tower generation didn't require to change as far as I know, aside from making them look more distinct and sinister I guess. Then again, it probably wouldn't have been changed if necromancers weren't one of the major focuses of the villains update.
As for the town & building gen on the level of detail that FAA described (w/ CDDA as a model): the first entry on the old roadmap/long-term goals (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html) (bustling town arc) more or less addresses this. But based on this info, I'd reckon that major work on this would not begin until post-magic, when the development shifts focus on laws/property/customs features and later the economy. Town NPCs are planned to engage in more daily scheduled activities beyond strolling and going to the well, such as doing labor-related jobs. This means interacting (or at the very least, be in the presence of) workshops and items related to their professions, which in turn will require more differentiated buildings and more well-planned layouts. Further details like furnishing and decoration will probably tie into culture, customs, etc.
CDDA owes to its post-apocalyptic setting that facilities and stations are meant to be (mostly) abandoned/static.
Post by: Ekaton on June 03, 2020, 05:19:00 am
Thanks for the answer Toady. And thanks Toady and ThreeToe.Is there a chance that we will see some changes to town and building generation sometime in the next update/s? The world of DF is truly massive, but towns, fortresses etc. completely lack any flavour - taverns, for example, are just some simple furniture, sometimes a bartender, some drunks, they never feel realistic or alive, and they're always too similar. This makes the adv mode rather unappealing.(Lime green, the recommended color, is easier on the eyes than the green you used, but it will still work as a Toady attractor).
Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.
I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.
Not in the near future. The Myth & Magic arc (after the Big Wait, some 5 years or so from now) will be forced to rework human settlements to allow for the human race to be playable in fully mundane worlds. The map rewrite taking place during the Big Wait will probably introduce changes that invalidates some of the current logic for settlements anyway (at least it will allow for new things that don't exist and thus aren't generated generated currently), so they will probably have to be reworked for that reason alone, at least to some extent.
However, extensive work on one piece of the game (in this case site generation) by necessity has to come at the expense of work on any of the other urgent changes to the game when the game is a single programmer project. That said, Toady is known to spiral away on tangents and spend a fair bit of effort on seemingly minor details, but he probably won't know if that will be the case until it happens.
It can be noted that the necro towers and kobold caves were reworked as part of 0.47.01 because they had to be to handle the contents in that release, but also that Toady was shorter of time than usual due to the Premium release obligations, and those obligations are not getting less pressing when there's less time left.
Most site/structure changes seem to happen when they're required to by other features focal to the dev arc, like kobold caves (for artifacts) and barrows in neco sites that are meant to house the experiment critters. Obviously this isn't always the case; the new necro tower generation didn't require to change as far as I know, aside from making them look more distinct and sinister I guess. Then again, it probably wouldn't have been changed if necromancers weren't one of the major focuses of the villains update.
As for the town & building gen on the level of detail that FAA described (w/ CDDA as a model): the first entry on the old roadmap/long-term goals (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html) (bustling town arc) more or less addresses this. But based on this info, I'd reckon that major work on this would not begin until post-magic, when the development shifts focus on laws/property/customs features and later the economy. Town NPCs are planned to engage in more daily scheduled activities beyond strolling and going to the well, such as doing labor-related jobs. This means interacting (or at the very least, be in the presence of) workshops and items related to their professions, which in turn will require more differentiated buildings and more well-planned layouts. Further details like furnishing and decoration will probably tie into culture, customs, etc.
CDDA owes to its post-apocalyptic setting that facilities and stations are meant to be (mostly) abandoned/static.
Different games do different things right, but when it comes to roguelikes, Cataclysm has the most detailed world. Particularly so, as it’s very easy to add new stuff to it.
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/40696
This is just one example. A single person added 42 kinds of basements, making houses much more fun. He was able to do so because the world gen system that builds individual houses after determining the overall layout of structures and spawns roads, is easy to define. That’s it, I think that doing something similar with world gen migt benefit the game, making it easier to make more believeable buildings, and significantly shortening the time needed to do so.
But that’s leading to some OP, anyway, good question there.
Post by: FAA on June 03, 2020, 05:29:15 am
Post by: Putnam on June 03, 2020, 07:43:49 am
Different games do different things right, but when it comes to roguelikes, Cataclysm has the most detailed world. Particularly so, as it’s very easy to add new stuff to it.
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/40696
This is just one example. A single person added 42 kinds of basements, making houses much more fun. He was able to do so because the world gen system that builds individual houses after determining the overall layout of structures and spawns roads, is easy to define. That’s it, I think that doing something similar with world gen migt benefit the game, making it easier to make more believeable buildings, and significantly shortening the time needed to do so.
But that’s leading to some OP, anyway, good question there.
Dwarf Fortress already does this, and doesn't generate maps at that granularity until you actually visit them physically in adventure mode or embark on top of them in dwarf mode.
Post by: Immortal-D on June 05, 2020, 07:33:58 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 05, 2020, 07:49:25 am
Has working on the Steam UI caused you to work on or otherwise revisit aspects of the game that you hadn't planned on getting to at this stage of development?Work on the UI hasn't started yet.
Well, it might have done by the end of the month I guess...
Post by: voliol on June 05, 2020, 09:45:16 am
Edit: thanks, PatrikLundell
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 05, 2020, 11:23:25 am
The "actual" work may not have started yet, but ThreeToe has thought about it and the might have run a few side projects, so I think the question may still get a useful answer even if the main development activity hasn't reached the UI by the end of the month.Has working on the Steam UI caused you to work on or otherwise revisit aspects of the game that you hadn't planned on getting to at this stage of development?Work on the UI hasn't started yet.
Well, it might have done by the end of the month I guess...
Any new insights on the new graphics architecture (e.g. separating the graphics from the sames)? Are you implementing in in parallel to the general graphics-rewrite, or has that part of the project yet to be started?I think you may want to revise that question. I, at least, fail to understand it, and I assume you want to be sure Toady understands what you mean when it's time to answer it. Hm, ah "sames" should be "saves" (I was barking up the multi thread tree).
When you're at it "in in" should probably be "it in".
Post by: bool1989 on June 05, 2020, 01:17:35 pm
In my experiance, the game crashes on a regular basis. During ragular playtime, I can expect the game to crash 3 or 4 times, if it wasn't for DF hack quicksave, and LNP seasonal saves, i would have lost my progress every single time.
Please, stop whatever features you're working on now and focus on improving the games stability, you don't have to change the game itself, just make it more stable. Please.
Post by: Inarius on June 05, 2020, 04:53:18 pm
if you want to ask something to Toady you should use the lime green color, or any green actually, like this
You can edit your text and change the paragraph if you want.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 05, 2020, 04:57:08 pm
Toady, have you given anything thought at all about knucking down and working on fixing bugs and improving the games stability?The convention is to use (lime) green for questions to Toady so he can locate them while answering (you can update your post to add color).
In my experiance, the game crashes on a regular basis. During ragular playtime, I can expect the game to crash 3 or 4 times, if it wasn't for DF hack quicksave, and LNP seasonal saves, i would have lost my progress every single time.
Please, stop whatever features you're working on now and focus on improving the games stability, you don't have to change the game itself, just make it more stable. Please.
Stop everything and work on stability isn't an option at the moment. The Premium release has to happen, and there are probably contractual obligations tied to it (including when it has to be released, which Toady has said he wants to do before the end of the year).
I sympathize with you, and would like the stability to be improved as well, but a crucial point is to find the causes of the crashes, and that, typically, requires saves uploaded and linked to on the bug tracker, and those saves would need to reliably show the crashes (rather than the typical situation of crashing often, but with no visible cause, with the same save sometimes crashing almost immediately, and sometimes running for a season without issues).
Crash bugs are the highest priority bugs to fix, but they have to be found first, and often a crashing save isn't sufficient, as it just shows that some structure has been corrupted, with no sign of what caused it (like the raid equipment corruption bug: the symptoms are well known, but the causes are not. Toady has tried to fix it, but since it's still happening there are more causes than the one(s) he dealt with). The time after the Premium release and its inevitable bug fix releases will be a critical time for stability, though.
Post by: Broms on June 05, 2020, 06:00:55 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 05, 2020, 07:12:23 pm
Bug fix up is part of Steam development. The three or four known crash bugs (equipment/raiding, item search in manager, refusing artifacts) are likely the main candidates to be addressed at this point.Toady, have you given anything thought at all about knucking down and working on fixing bugs and improving the games stability?The convention is to use (lime) green for questions to Toady so he can locate them while answering (you can update your post to add color).
In my experiance, the game crashes on a regular basis. During ragular playtime, I can expect the game to crash 3 or 4 times, if it wasn't for DF hack quicksave, and LNP seasonal saves, i would have lost my progress every single time.
Please, stop whatever features you're working on now and focus on improving the games stability, you don't have to change the game itself, just make it more stable. Please.
Stop everything and work on stability isn't an option at the moment. The Premium release has to happen, and there are probably contractual obligations tied to it (including when it has to be released, which Toady has said he wants to do before the end of the year).
I sympathize with you, and would like the stability to be improved as well, but a crucial point is to find the causes of the crashes, and that, typically, requires saves uploaded and linked to on the bug tracker, and those saves would need to reliably show the crashes (rather than the typical situation of crashing often, but with no visible cause, with the same save sometimes crashing almost immediately, and sometimes running for a season without issues).
Crash bugs are the highest priority bugs to fix, but they have to be found first, and often a crashing save isn't sufficient, as it just shows that some structure has been corrupted, with no sign of what caused it (like the raid equipment corruption bug: the symptoms are well known, but the causes are not. Toady has tried to fix it, but since it's still happening there are more causes than the one(s) he dealt with). The time after the Premium release and its inevitable bug fix releases will be a critical time for stability, though.
Generally "it crashes every two minutes" reports are caused by either already corrupted saves continuing to be used (equipment/raiding) or using crashy third party memory hacks (which the questioner says they are doing).
Take a listen to this recent interview. It covers everything going into the Steam release. (Not likely to be out this year by the way.)
https://literate-gamer.zencast.website/episodes/172
Post by: Sarmatian123 on June 06, 2020, 12:49:00 am
Toady, have you given anything thought at all about knucking down and working on fixing bugs and improving the games stability?
In my experience, the game crashes on a regular basis. During regular playtime, I can expect the game to crash 3 or 4 times, if it wasn't for DF hack quicksave, and LNP seasonal saves, i would have lost my progress every single time.
Please, stop whatever features you're working on now and focus on improving the games stability, you don't have to change the game itself, just make it more stable. Please.
As, I read Toady's earlier declarations from before Steam, in previous releases of "Future of the Fortress", that there will be a time before magic release, when Toady will take care of some bugs and missing features. However from Steam change, some bugs, features or game balancing will be fixed by Toady on monthly basis, so Steam paying customers will be placated. Toady is just discovering need for version maintenance. It will be probably manual like on Hithub, rather then automatic like on Jenkins server. So do not expect Toady to give you an answer to this particular issue, your question is actually about.
Toady did not prommis to fix play-ability of Adventure Mode or its auto-spawn issues and all bugs crushing it to desktop (0 weight squirrel crush bug, trading foreign items and then revisiting crush bug, repetitious animal spawns in same location lag/crash bug, trolls and so on overflow in Dark Tower immense lag and so on and so on).
Toady did not prommis to fix auto-conversion for old saves, so generated worlds will be missing all new features, which can be solutions to some old bugs.
Post by: Kobold6 on June 11, 2020, 10:58:30 pm
Post by: ArrowheadArcher on June 15, 2020, 12:55:05 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 15, 2020, 01:20:04 am
Tody One, I'm a modder. I use mostly real-world values in my mods for weapons, creatures sizes, etc. It would be quite helpful if we could get more info on the units used in DF, along with features that allow for us to see it, much like how DFHack does. I know that SIZE, BODYSIZE, and contact area and penetration depth in ATTACK is cm3, temp, and weight in Urists (1 U degree is equal to 102 degrees Fahrenheit and 1 U is equal 1 Kg)[1], but I don't know about SHOOT_FORCE, SHOOT_MAXVEL, and *_STRAIN_AT_YIELD. It would be really nice to see if these have some kind of unit or other equivalents.No, 10000 Urists = 0 Celsius = 32 Fahrenheit = Water freezing.
Post by: Mort Stroodle on June 15, 2020, 02:50:59 pm
Post by: Buttery_Mess on June 16, 2020, 06:01:18 am
Now that we can actually see which way slopes point, can we order dwarves to carve out specifically oriented ramps?
Does it look cool when fluids dribble down slopes or does it sort of ignore them?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 16, 2020, 06:42:00 am
With the graphical improvements coming being applied to the current version (or something like it), will the map updates coming with the developments that precursor the myth and magic release require new artwork and/or render old artwork obsolete?Probably yes.
As an example magical areas, land made of giant eggs and far out mushy things have been mentioned. Maybe floating islands will require some new graphics too? All the new procgen critters of course.
And workshop zones will likely make the workshops obsolete (presumably elements of them can be reused).
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 16, 2020, 07:05:42 am
Machinery, when that comes, will require new art, starting scenarios will probably add new details, and so on.
Also note that what we've seen is still early, and the artists will probably iterate on many things for a fair while, so while an improved peacock (random example, with no relation to the quality of the current image) would make the current one "obsolete", it would still essentially be "the peacock" image.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on June 16, 2020, 11:37:19 am
Post by: Eric Blank on June 16, 2020, 03:45:57 pm
####
####### #
### #######
########
### ###########
########### #
#######
###
Where the # is the pixels of the veiny intrusion and the blank space is the bedrock it's intruding into, complete with a couple pixels of the bedrock engulfed in the intrusion, which happens often.
This would also look good around the edges of adamantine veins!
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 21, 2020, 11:32:15 am
A few reasonably near time technical questions that may not have been decided on yet:
As far as I understand, the CP437 character set is going to be replaced with a wider set.
1A. Is the set going to be the same for actual text as for character graphics?
1B. Is the set going to be fixed size (e.g. 16 bit), or variable size (e.g. Unicode)?
1C. If the set(s) has been decided on, can you tell us what it is?
I have gotten the impression that the current set of 15 colors is going to be replaced by a wider set(s).
2A. I've seen indications that named colors will be usable, would that be in addition to RGB or instead of RGB?
2B. If both versions are supported, will you be able to use one or the other at will, or will each color usage situation have a fixed definition (or some being fixed and some variable)?
2C. Assuming named colors can be used, would they be fixed or defined in a RAW file where the users can add additional ones for use in RAWs?
Post by: MalroktheIII on June 22, 2020, 12:08:26 am
1:When you change world gen for the myth arc, what specific geographic features are you hoping for (either in general, or in particular)
2: With said new world gen, do you have any thoughts on how will biomes work? If you are planning a change on that front, what?
3: How long until you have working evolution (joke question, but still)
Bonus question: 1&2, but with alternate planes.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 22, 2020, 02:28:20 am
Time for my newest round of stupid, far off, likely already asked, questions for you!Alternate planes, flying islands, sphere based areas replacing generic Good and Bad biomes. Better rock.
1:When you change world gen for the myth arc, what specific geographic features are you hoping for (either in general, or in particular)
2: With said new world gen, do you have any thoughts on how will biomes work? If you are planning a change on that front, what?
3: How long until you have working evolution (joke question, but still)
Bonus question: 1&2, but with alternate planes.
Yeah, it's been mentioned before, but would take a while to drag out everything again from the depths of fotf, so may as well get a new answer.
(Planes discussed with enthusiasm in the Q&A talk thing he did the other day, perhaps as part of the after chat, I forget):
Interview:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/655224456
Starts at about 9:46
After talk:
https://youtu.be/kEtAaGvXO6M
Post by: Wieniawa on June 22, 2020, 06:35:55 pm
1) Is it likely that the game will move to an open development with volunteers working on particular parts of the game, like how it currently has external artists for the Steam version? Current development is very slow, I imagine it must be very hard, perhaps that would help?
2) Any chance that the adventure mode will become more like The Sims soon? I cannot think of any roguelikes where you can just live a life in a fantasy world. I’m not interested in combat at all, but would like to play as a craftsman, have a family, build a house, that sort of things. But above all I would love to live in a dynamic, realistic world. Is that, at least partly, the focus?
Post by: Bumber on June 22, 2020, 07:20:32 pm
1) Is it likely that the game will move to an open development with volunteers working on particular parts of the game, like how it currently has external artists for the Steam version? Current development is very slow, I imagine it must be very hard, perhaps that would help?
For anything relating to DF's code, Toady's answer is "absolutely not".
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 22, 2020, 09:55:35 pm
See the talk I linked just above (after talk part) to watch Toady tackle that question again (including info on what bits he might actually open source). More of a "players want to play with this stuff" than a "I need help" thing though. Pretty sure he doesn't feel like he needs any help.1) Is it likely that the game will move to an open development with volunteers working on particular parts of the game, like how it currently has external artists for the Steam version? Current development is very slow, I imagine it must be very hard, perhaps that would help?
For anything relating to DF's code, Toady's answer is "absolutely not".
--edit
Or was it the main talk? I forget. Watch it all! Then post questions on anything he didn't cover. :)
Post by: Luckyowl on June 22, 2020, 10:37:06 pm
And also will you be able to implement it in 47.05? Doesn't feel all that difficult since the information of these groups symbols are already in the game, all it need is to be reveal Or will it destroy the whole code if you do?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 22, 2020, 11:08:24 pm
hi, I just have small suggestion. I am not sure if someone suggested this before, but it would be nice if we could get a description of a civs and groups flags when we open up their history in legends mode. I hate having to hunt them down and what's worst is not being able to see other groups symbols that aren't civs like bandits, criminals organizations, guilds, merchants, mercenaries, and sects.Suggestions in suggestions forum.
And also will you be able to implement it in 47.05? Doesn't feel all that difficult since the information of these groups symbols are already in the game, all it need is to be reveal Or will it destroy the whole code if you do?
Also, check the several thousand other suggestions there which probably wouldn't take much time to put into 47.05 if Toady were to only pick one of them. Not sure being able to see a flag would be considered a priority over, say, stress issues.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 23, 2020, 03:48:08 am
Prompted by a recent interview somebody linked to (thanks!), where world gen branching was mentioned: Have you considered getting someone to help you with running a number of profiler and analysis tools over DF, in particular world gen, to track down uninitialized variables and other potential issues the tools may find?
Another grunt task that might be given to others would be crash replication, where the assistant would perform the repeat job of trying to get the crashes to show up, and then hand over the computer with the debugger at the crash location to you. That might not be very suitable at the moment, though, given that it would probably have to be done at your place. It may also require a fair number of computers for parallel crash generation attempts.
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on June 24, 2020, 09:37:06 am
Post by: Beag on June 27, 2020, 06:37:25 pm
2. Will we ever be able to start out as members of goblin or necromancer civilizations before the magic release when such things become irrelevant?
3. Sometime in the far future will our adventurers be able to further manage the hamlets they create? Maybe being able to appoint things like administrators or law makers or any position beyond hearth person?
4. For me at least adventure mode tends to crash after spending time in large cities when I try to save the game causing me to loose progress. To minimize lost progress will adventure mode ever get an auto save feature that periodically drops down a save of the game?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 28, 2020, 07:42:33 am
1. In the steam release will items in our inventory in adventure mode have their tile symbol next to them so we can get a cursory idea of what they look like without having to examine them?1. This is a suggestion for the Suggestions thread.
2. Will we ever be able to start out as members of goblin or necromancer civilizations before the magic release when such things become irrelevant?
3. Sometime in the far future will our adventurers be able to further manage the hamlets they create? Maybe being able to appoint things like administrators or law makers or any position beyond hearth person?
4. For me at least adventure mode tends to crash after spending time in large cities when I try to save the game causing me to loose progress. To minimize lost progress will adventure mode ever get an auto save feature that periodically drops down a save of the game?
2. Necros create site governments, not civs, which probably makes it tricky to start as a necro site member.
3. While rather suggestiony as well, the gradual blending of adventure mode (growing from single to party so far, plus some professions) indicates the trend might continue, although the different time scales will cause issues at some point. On the other end of the spectrum we have desires for players to control civs, or at least a somewhat autonomous civ section, not just a single site (e.g. to engage in conquest that actually makes use of the conquered sites). Starting Scenarios will add variations to the fortress game play, but if adventure mode is going to get some time as well, site management would be a logical candidate.
4. Auto saving as a means to protect against crashing while saving is asking for save corruption when the crash happens in the middle of the save (not that common with DF, but still). Also, this is a suggestion, not really a FotF question. Providing saves with bug reports that can reliably replicate crashes is the best way to help eliminate crashes, which is better than trying to invent means to reduce their impact.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2020, 08:28:29 am
Post by: ror6ax on June 29, 2020, 04:55:32 am
1.Can you briefly speak about how the UX work is going to be organised, what will be general direction/inspirations of the design etc.
2.The http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0 thread to discuss graphics is absolutely awesome, could we get same thing for UX yay/nay type of feedback and ideation?
3.Are there any sounds/music to preview yet?
Post by: clinodev on June 29, 2020, 05:36:35 am
3.Are there any sounds/music to preview yet?
We have the one track, "Fall", on the composer's website (https://www.dabuaudio.com), but you've probably heard it on the
Post by: Putnam on June 29, 2020, 08:07:57 am
Hi there!
2.The http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0 thread to discuss graphics is absolutely awesome, could we get same thing for UX yay/nay type of feedback and ideation?
Right here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174947.0)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 29, 2020, 09:34:27 pm
That's just a thread for people to brainstorm everything that's wrong with the current system and throw about ideas on improvements. It's not a discussion on the ongoing development the new UI. (Which hasn't started yet, but yeah, it would be good to have thoughts on the updatesin one official thread when they start coming in).Hi there!
2.The http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0 thread to discuss graphics is absolutely awesome, could we get same thing for UX yay/nay type of feedback and ideation?
Right here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174947.0)
Post by: Putnam on June 30, 2020, 06:59:19 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 30, 2020, 07:30:56 am
Not UI, UX. "User eXperience". That's absolutely what that thread is about.Oh, OK. Then, yeah, I guess that's the thread. Not sure what the relation with the graphics feedback thread is though...
Post by: Mort Stroodle on June 30, 2020, 04:55:19 pm
In-universe, are intelligent undead supposed to look like regular people? They're treated like normal citizens in worldgen, but is that because nobody actually knows they're undead? Vampires and necromancers look pretty much normal, so they can hide among the populace (until someone notices that they've been 37 years old for the past 500 years). Are intelligent undead in a similar situation?
This gets weirder when some of these guys can be like, eternally bleeding from a massive gaping wound in their throat, but many intelligent undead are unwounded.
Where do Gorlaks learn their useful advise and practice their stimulating conversation? The little guys seem to be just wandering around the caves solo, foraging for mushrooms or whatever. Is there some kind of secret Gorlak society they don't want us to know about??
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 30, 2020, 05:15:45 pm
Where do Gorlaks learn their useful advise and practice their stimulating conversation? The little guys seem to be just wandering around the caves solo, foraging for mushrooms or whatever. Is there some kind of secret Gorlak society they don't want us to know about??The underground is full of deep dwarves. They don't exist yet, but theoretically they do. Gorlaks probably talk to them. Maybe even help them out in the mushroom farms.
Otherwise, it's magical fantasy. Don't worry about it.
Post by: clinodev on June 30, 2020, 06:37:10 pm
Now that we're a bit closer to that work, could we get a status update? It's my go-to quote for reassuring people that you don't intend for reasonably well-run fortresses to collapse into tantrum spirals from dwarves being being in a state of constant internal rage after rained on when entering the map as migrants, etc.Quote from: clinodevWhen you work on the greatly anticipated stress, needs, and happiness changes, will you focus more on fixing the little bugs that made your original plan not work, or more on modifying the algorithm to run stress towards "okay" rather than either ecstatic or misery until well-run, safe fortresses stop breaking around the 5-6 year mark (without extreme micromanagement?) Likely some of each, but have you decided a focus?
Note I'm not asking if it'll be fixed, as that's been well-covered, but it would be neat to see the original plan implemented! There was a moment around August when I was actually somewhat excited the needs bugs might encourage the fixing of long-standing but trivial bugs, like allowing dwarves to: enjoy well-made meals, rather than only (secretly) craving Zebra hearts or polar bear brains; seek out their specifically needed temple; seek out friendships and relationships; grab desired high-value clothes and trinkets from stockpiles, etc.
That might even be mostly the same thing, depending on how much the long-term stress problems depend on broken needs vs. e.g. broken memories. A lot of the notes I've taken down are about several issues with socializing, meal thoughts, etc. I haven't jumped into it yet, which makes it hard to answer your question completely. Issues with long-term memories inside stress-prone dwarves, that kind of thing; I haven't gotten up to speed on all of it yet, and won't until the work begins. I have some threads marked down to look at when the time comes. Ideally, a really poorly run fortress will break over the needs issues, while even an 'okay' fortress won't completely fall apart over the background stressors.
Post by: Bumber on June 30, 2020, 09:13:20 pm
You've mentioned that you don't like how easy it is to feed your dwarves. Do you have any ideas for what sorts of changes you'd like to make to farming/meat production? Is this a mechanic you want to work on before the magic update, or is this something that's further down the road?Tracking soil nutrients is one of the development goals. It's definitely not going to be in before the magic update.
In-universe, are intelligent undead supposed to look like regular people? They're treated like normal citizens in worldgen, but is that because nobody actually knows they're undead? Vampires and necromancers look pretty much normal, so they can hide among the populace (until someone notices that they've been 37 years old for the past 500 years). Are intelligent undead in a similar situation?
Edit: It's not in the dev log. Must've been an earlier FotF.
Edit: Couldn't find it searching FotF either.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 30, 2020, 09:41:43 pm
Seems to be back up today. Along with DFFD and the bug tracker.You've mentioned that you don't like how easy it is to feed your dwarves. Do you have any ideas for what sorts of changes you'd like to make to farming/meat production? Is this a mechanic you want to work on before the magic update, or is this something that's further down the road?Tracking soil nutrients is one of the development goals. It's definitely not going to be in before the magic update.In-universe, are intelligent undead supposed to look like regular people? They're treated like normal citizens in worldgen, but is that because nobody actually knows they're undead? Vampires and necromancers look pretty much normal, so they can hide among the populace (until someone notices that they've been 37 years old for the past 500 years). Are intelligent undead in a similar situation?The main Bay12 page containing the dev log is down right now, but I think there's something there about them looking like regular people.
For me anyway.
--edit
And back down again. That didn't last long...
--
And up again...starting to feel sick.
Post by: Toady One on July 02, 2020, 04:56:49 pm
Quote from: FAA
Is there a chance that we will see some changes to town and building generation sometime in the next update/s? The world of DF is truly massive, but towns, fortresses etc. completely lack any flavour - taverns, for example, are just some simple furniture, sometimes a bartender, some drunks, they never feel realistic or alive, and they're always too similar. This makes the adv mode rather unappealing.
Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.
I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.
EDIT: I'm not a programmer, but I can make several realistic-looking locations for Cataclysm in a single day. I think that something like that, perhaps using JSON like Cataclysm, might make things easier and faster for Toady.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8148322#msg8148322
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8148694#msg8148694
Ekaton: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8148749#msg8148749
FAA (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8148756#msg8148756
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8148794#msg8148794
I don't have anything additional to add to my reply from when you asked about CDDA some months back. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083871#msg8083871)
Quote from: UselessMcMiner
In fortress mode, will it ever be possible for Lovers to become pregnant instead of having to get married? So can your dwarves get divorced or cheat on each other in fort mode? I know dwarves can take multiple lovers but that might be a bug or something
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8148435#msg8148435
Yeah, as EGAN_BW says, some of those things can theoretically happen now. Divorce should be possible, and multiple lovers (probably) isn't a bug. But looks like I didn't get the world gen pregnancy change over to fort mode pregnancies, hmm. Have made a note.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Has working on the Steam UI caused you to work on or otherwise revisit aspects of the game that you hadn't planned on getting to at this stage of development?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8149866#msg8149866
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8149971#msg8149971
Yeah, depending on what you mean by UI, we haven't really gotten to the big chunks (like VPL or whatever, though that would be in the 'planned' category), but even doing the graphical work I found I had to repair some broken issues with heavy branches and consider grass growth patterns and brook flow code. Stuff that'll make the ASCII version better as well (heavy branch growth in particular was totally broken.) I expect that'll just keep happening.
Quote from: voliol
Any new insights on the new graphics architecture (e.g. separating the graphics from the saves)? Are you implementing it in parallel to the general graphics-rewrite, or has that part of the project yet to be started?
Haven't done it yet, since it feels more related to the restructuring of the mods. For now everything just lives in the raw/graphics folder as before, but that'll change once we figure mods vs. saves out.
Quote from: bool1989
Toady, have you given anything thought at all about knucking down and working on fixing bugs and improving the games stability?
In my experiance, the game crashes on a regular basis. During ragular playtime, I can expect the game to crash 3 or 4 times, if it wasn't for DF hack quicksave, and LNP seasonal saves, i would have lost my progress every single time.
Please, stop whatever features you're working on now and focus on improving the games stability, you don't have to change the game itself, just make it more stable. Please.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8150103#msg8150103
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8150156#msg8150156
Sarmation123: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8150218#msg8150218
I don't have much to add to the replies. I'm working on the stuff I have to work on. We're hoping to do at least one stability release before the Steam version even comes out, but I've been having difficulty scheduling that because of the ongoing art work, which must move forward, plus 2020's multiple real-world disasters which have also constrained work somewhat.
Quote from: Broms
Are there any plans to expand the 'd'etail function to some of the older hard coded reactions like prepare meal, mill plant, mill seeds, or dye cloth? It would go a long way in terms of user experience and would save a lot of linked stock pile hassle.
We didn't specifically have plans for this, though it's a reasonable idea.
Quote from: Kobold6
Toady One, I see you talking about a lot of work with doing identifiers-- I wonder how systematic it is that you're doing the actual job. I expect the job to be rather systematically compling a list of relevant tiles and then linking up identifiers to tile maps, possibly with identifier text files for the images. Can you speak a little about what sort of job you're doing that requires so much work with what I (probably mistakenly) imagine to be manual identifiers?
Yeah, since we're going to allow graphics to be modded as before, everything needs a name out in the text files. There are over a thousand now and growing (considering how many there are just for the brook animations and the trees and ramps, it didn't take long for the numbers to climb -- a lot of the identifiers accept a number or two, as with other numeric raw text fields.) Each of those needs to be linked into the code, and this process isn't just an "add identifiers" process, but a "make the graphics work" process, which requires different systems etc. depending on the stuff (ie layering shadows on dwarf feet vs. advancing multilayer brook animations.) It's not a simple conversion, but we should have most of the graphics we need on the other side.
Quote from: ArrowheadArcher
Tody One, I'm a modder. I use mostly real-world values in my mods for weapons, creatures sizes, etc. It would be quite helpful if we could get more info on the units used in DF, along with features that allow for us to see it, much like how DFHack does. I know that SIZE, BODYSIZE, and contact area and penetration depth in ATTACK is cm3, temp, and weight in Urists (1 U degree is equal to 102 degrees Fahrenheit and 1 U is equal 1 Kg)[1], but I don't know about SHOOT_FORCE, SHOOT_MAXVEL, and *_STRAIN_AT_YIELD. It would be really nice to see if these have some kind of unit or other equivalents.
PatrickLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8154569#msg8154569
The strain/elasticity is 1000 * the percentage change in shape when the yield strength is reached. The force/velocity variables for those projectiles all predate the physics rewrite for minecarts, so they don't have a standard unit in mind. It divides the force by the projectile mass to get a velocity, and caps it with maxvel. This velocity is transferred over to the melee attack system when it comes up with the attack momentum (though there's a mess of other stuff that happens at that point.) It's not based on any SI unit currently as far as I remember, and the speed the arrow flies across the map does not use the velocity (they fly at the maximum frame speed, but don't skip squares.)
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With the graphical improvements coming being applied to the current version (or something like it), will the map updates coming with the developments that precursor the myth and magic release require new artwork and/or render old artwork obsolete?
Now that we can actually see which way slopes point, can we order dwarves to carve out specifically oriented ramps?
Does it look cool when fluids dribble down slopes or does it sort of ignore them?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8155002#msg8155002
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8155012#msg8155012
Buttery_Mess (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8155103#msg8155103
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8155170#msg8155170
Oh, yeah, regarding your clarification about geology etc., it's definite that we'll need more images as we go. What we're doing now with the artists is really just part of the new normal of DF on into the future, and how that works when we switch back to a "new features" mode remains to be seen!
I haven't changed the ramp jobs at all, though yeah, theoretically, now that they aren't all ASCII triangles, there'd be some cause to do that in the future.
We still just have test images of water at the 1-6 out of 7 levels, and there are various issues on the table there. Having it partially obscure creatures vs. how it dribbles down ramps are one example where they don't play nice and would need extra work, as I recall.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
A few reasonably near time technical questions that may not have been decided on yet:
As far as I understand, the CP437 character set is going to be replaced with a wider set.
1A. Is the set going to be the same for actual text as for character graphics?
1B. Is the set going to be fixed size (e.g. 16 bit), or variable size (e.g. Unicode)?
1C. If the set(s) has been decided on, can you tell us what it is?
I have gotten the impression that the current set of 15 colors is going to be replaced by a wider set(s).
2A. I've seen indications that named colors will be usable, would that be in addition to RGB or instead of RGB?
2B. If both versions are supported, will you be able to use one or the other at will, or will each color usage situation have a fixed definition (or some being fixed and some variable)?
2C. Assuming named colors can be used, would they be fixed or defined in a RAW file where the users can add additional ones for use in RAWs?
We haven't decided if we're going to use a wider set -- we're juuust starting to experiment with our first text-bearing buttons, and we'll see what comes out of that. The graphical tiles and the interface tiles are completely decoupled now, so the only relationships between their sizes are just based on what makes a nice button with an animal/item picture next to it, etc. I'm just using the old 8x12 font now. Dunno if we'll end up somewhere else, either in terms of fixed size or fixed width or anything else, though we've had trouble supporting ttf in the past and I'm not sure what issues there are implementing unicode. It's not as crucial as some of the absolutely horrible stuff about the UI, as long as it is legible.
The wider color ranges are used in recoloring the graphical tile set (weapon materials, gems, etc.), and those colors are already defined in a raw file (descriptor_color_standard.txt), but I haven't done anything with text yet. DF text has always been printed using 24 bit color, and it just artificially narrowed the range. So it would just take a few minutes to get it to print in any RGB color, as a technical matter, but it's a matter of where that is used. Certainly there are lots of places where it would make sense.
Having done nothing with it makes it difficult to comment on usage. The descriptor raw file is more for in-game stuff though, so for some UI text unrelated to game objects, something more along the lines of data/init/colors.txt would be appropriate. But if the text is, say, of an in-game material and we want it to be the same color as that material (possibly brightened if it is too dark), then that would still use a raw color definition.
I may be missing the case you are concerned about.
Quote from: MalroktheIII
Time for my newest round of stupid, far off, likely already asked, questions for you!
1:When you change world gen for the myth arc, what specific geographic features are you hoping for (either in general, or in particular)
2: With said new world gen, do you have any thoughts on how will biomes work? If you are planning a change on that front, what?
3: How long until you have working evolution (joke question, but still)
Bonus question: 1&2, but with alternate planes.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8157663#msg8157663
The first step with the map rewrite is to create a structure which will support what we want to do, whether that's with planes or real world land/waterforms, etc. In no particular order, one list we have is different distant/time scales, a general framework for world spanning features like rivers that will allow world trees or ley lines or tortoises or whatever), world edges, connectors like rainbow bridges/multiplanar rivers, multiple view ports, boats and moving map segments/shifting mazes, shadow/veil concepts, recursive/fractal/'levels of reality'/micro-macrocosm concepts, non-rectangular world shapes (giant pillar, tubes, giant pit, etc., though we likely won't attempt traditional spheres, as wrapping abilities are limited by the grid), better geological layers/intrusions/cliffs/eroded features, support for linkages between rivers/caves entrances/etc., support for small sites (logging camps, crossroad inns, etc.), support for nomadic groups sites (the current tents the armies use are horrible), ability to support world-spanning settlements, portals (various), faerie-type border zones, infinite worlds (not that there's memory for that, but the ability to reshift focus), liquid/air/etc. based worlds, auras/fields/mists/wtvr and restructure good/evil-type sphere links, compatability with astronomical or larger universe concepts, support for regional/world natural disasters and resulting map changes (and map repair like forest regrowth), places in the clouds, underground oceans and other improved underground linkages/structure/features, consider support for broader liquid/material types in terrain, large vortices/whirlwinds/etc., z-level buildings/doors/etc., merging/mixing planes, teleporting sites, illusions of various kinds (non-tactile, tactile but impermanent in some way.)
No way we're getting to all or even most of that on the first pass! But we're hoping to create a backbone that support it all. I also have a few other lists around that are mostly in that one up there, but I doubt that's everything.
Biomes relate to a lot of that, how they are contained or how they can change and bleed together, and what sort of ecological simming we can get away with. Ultimately we'll still need to have rainfall, temperature, drainage, present species, and that sort of thing, and the existing classifications aren't bad there.
Quote from: Wieniawa
Two questions:
1) Is it likely that the game will move to an open development with volunteers working on particular parts of the game, like how it currently has external artists for the Steam version? Current development is very slow, I imagine it must be very hard, perhaps that would help?
2) Any chance that the adventure mode will become more like The Sims soon? I cannot think of any roguelikes where you can just live a life in a fantasy world. I’m not interested in combat at all, but would like to play as a craftsman, have a family, build a house, that sort of things. But above all I would love to live in a dynamic, realistic world. Is that, at least partly, the focus?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8157956#msg8157956
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8158003#msg8158003
1) Yeah, this is not likely to happen or help, though, yeah, we'd also been considering what sort of partial releases we could make if we are in a position to do so.
2) Soon? Nope! But things along those lines are on the dev page at https://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html , where we have succeeded in not working on them very much. So it wouldn't be fair to say that's the focus as we haven't made significant progress. But it's something we'd like to improve.
Quote from: Luckyowl
hi, I just have small suggestion. I am not sure if someone suggested this before, but it would be nice if we could get a description of a civs and groups flags when we open up their history in legends mode. I hate having to hunt them down and what's worst is not being able to see other groups symbols that aren't civs like bandits, criminals organizations, guilds, merchants, mercenaries, and sects.
And also will you be able to implement it in 47.05? Doesn't feel all that difficult since the information of these groups symbols are already in the game, all it need is to be reveal Or will it destroy the whole code if you do?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8158033#msg8158033
Yeah, please use the suggestion forums! It is difficult for me to keep track of suggestions that are placed here. It's true that it wouldn't be a hard addition, but the list of those already requested is also many, many pages long, and we do them when we can.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Prompted by a recent interview somebody linked to (thanks!), where world gen branching was mentioned: Have you considered getting someone to help you with running a number of profiler and analysis tools over DF, in particular world gen, to track down uninitialized variables and other potential issues the tools may find?
Another grunt task that might be given to others would be crash replication, where the assistant would perform the repeat job of trying to get the crashes to show up, and then hand over the computer with the debugger at the crash location to you. That might not be very suitable at the moment, though, given that it would probably have to be done at your place. It may also require a fair number of computers for parallel crash generation attempts.
I do not have a person I trust to do this, same as ever. MSVC now has static analysis tools, and I found a few zingers with those last year (or the year before, don't remember.) But they don't find everything, especially in instances where two consecutive world generations cause the problem to come up (so it isn't strictly about the initial initialization.)
Quote from: Iä! RIAKTOR!
What spheres can change surroundings into evil? What effect have each of this spheres?
I think we just have blight, death, disease, deformity and nightmares. The first three kill vegetation, while the others sometimes do. The last two get "evil plants" and "evil animals" sometimes. Nightmares get bogeymen.
Quote from: Beag
1. In the steam release will items in our inventory in adventure mode have their tile symbol next to them so we can get a cursory idea of what they look like without having to examine them?
2. Will we ever be able to start out as members of goblin or necromancer civilizations before the magic release when such things become irrelevant?
3. Sometime in the far future will our adventurers be able to further manage the hamlets they create? Maybe being able to appoint things like administrators or law makers or any position beyond hearth person?
4. For me at least adventure mode tends to crash after spending time in large cities when I try to save the game causing me to loose progress. To minimize lost progress will adventure mode ever get an auto save feature that periodically drops down a save of the game?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8160302#msg8160302
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8160317#msg8160317
1. Messed around with animals displayed on the embark screen most recently, so that's the current way things are headed, with some support now. But I don't want to promise any particular screen/feature early.
2. It is kind of taped together, as PatrikLundell replied. So I'm not sure we'll see that early.
3. There are a lot of angles here, some of them fresh from the villain release, and some of them languishing in the notes for over a decade. So, yeah, it's sort of a far future goal, with some improvements coming in earlier as we add the ability to do more and more with e.g. semi-autonomous party members etc.
4. Ha, yeah, sounds like the crash fix first here is more important. But some sort of autosave at some point would also make sense.
Quote from: ror6ax
1.Can you briefly speak about how the UX work is going to be organised, what will be general direction/inspirations of the design etc.
2.The http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0 thread to discuss graphics is absolutely awesome, could we get same thing for UX yay/nay type of feedback and ideation?
3.Are there any sounds/music to preview yet?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8160678#msg8160678
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8160719#msg8160719
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8161037#msg8161037
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8161148#msg8161148
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8161158#msg8161158
Thanks for the music link, clinodev!
And yeah, the thread Putnam linked is what we have, to collect issues, and I'm not sure what else we'll be doing after we begin. Many of our larger ideas about UX are still some time off, if we get time to do them at all, where others hardly rise to the level of having a UX philosophy and are based more on feedback and being bludgeoned by horror. For instance, the entire player experience before getting to start fort mode is just baffling and terrible, and we're redoing it all, but that's being guided more or less by input over the years, and stuff that was clear but we never got to: repairing inconsistent key bindings, having a mouse option for everything, reducing some of the detours off to completely different screens, fronting important information and putting less necessary information farther away (embark screen has various weird priorities), otherwise changing the format of some confusing interactions (e.g. F1F2F3F4F5 as some kind of biome viewing interface), not dropping the player back to the title screen halfway through the process, not guiding the player toward an unannounced initial multi-hour world generation experience by default, and so on.
Once we are safely into fort mode, there are another set of straightforward complaints waiting for us -- digging not being plainly obvious as an option, k/v/q/t being four modes instead of one way of interacting more generally, vpl stuff should we get there, inconsistent keys (again), and several more pages of similar. By the time we work through as much of that as time allows, UX will be much improved, though we won't be to the point where we are doing what dedicated UX professionals do. I hesitate to use the acronym at all.
Quote from: Mort Stroodle
You've mentioned that you don't like how easy it is to feed your dwarves. Do you have any ideas for what sorts of changes you'd like to make to farming/meat production? Is this a mechanic you want to work on before the magic update, or is this something that's further down the road?
In-universe, are intelligent undead supposed to look like regular people? They're treated like normal citizens in worldgen, but is that because nobody actually knows they're undead? Vampires and necromancers look pretty much normal, so they can hide among the populace (until someone notices that they've been 37 years old for the past 500 years). Are intelligent undead in a similar situation?
This gets weirder when some of these guys can be like, eternally bleeding from a massive gaping wound in their throat, but many intelligent undead are unwounded.
Where do Gorlaks learn their useful advise and practice their stimulating conversation? The little guys seem to be just wandering around the caves solo, foraging for mushrooms or whatever. Is there some kind of secret Gorlak society they don't want us to know about??
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8161391#msg8161391
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8161458#msg8161458
Farming: I don't think we'll be getting to it before the map rewrite. We'd gone as far as floating NPK value stuff for soil, yeah, many years back (and though we generally say that our mom is a nurse and our dad worked in water treatment, as possible explanations for inspirations/formative aspects of the game, we could also say that our mom is an 8-hr-a-day gardener and our dad is a trained botanist, since that's also true, though it's only partially reflected in what we've focused on.) As I recall a long farming thread took off over in suggestions, and a lot of that is in line with where we'd take things (though I'm not sure as I recollect if I'd handle information the same way), but we haven't gotten around to systematizing plans there.
The game has not been remarkably consistent in how it treats obvious supernatural or monstrous things, like raising the dead right in front of people and so forth. There's just a lot that isn't done. It isn't entirely settled what they look like, though there's some bits implicit in the naming, because I didn't add in appearance changes - so currently, I suppose they do not either look rotted or have changes in appearance, assuming the resurrection interaction effect brings all of the tissues back to skeletons (I think it does?) I think, future-canonically-for-as-long-as-that-lasts, they are supposed to be both scary and undead looking - as you say, vampires already cover the normal looking case, and the names also suggest changes. I'm not sure, in the same sense, whether necromancers should physically change. Both are probably appropriate (and ultimately, intelligent undead that are properly normal looking is also appropriate, though the names would need to accommodate this. And the community behaviors of course.) Mummies are also a case like intelligent undead, since they both use the resurrect effect.
We just never did justice to the underground/animal people civilizations/societies/etc., after their height during the 2D days when they rode bats and flew in patterns and organized themselves a bit. Gorlaks never even got that much, since they came later. But I don't think gorlaks are meant to live in societies of any density, or societies at all. But they are supposed to chat and guide and advise, based on their cavern wanderings and social nature as it relates to others gathered underground. Dunno that we'd ever even imagined two gorlaks meeting, though of course that happens now in performance troupes and taverns and so forth. I don't think they are really ultimately meant to petition for residency either, for any permanent period, though of course that can happen now. We probably also vaguely lean toward having them at depth 2:3 instead of 1:3. They are not supposed to be running around outdoors, and the game isn't great at this either.
Quote from: clinodev
Now that we're a bit closer to that work, could we get a status update? It's my go-to quote for reassuring people that you don't intend for reasonably well-run fortresses to collapse into tantrum spirals from dwarves being being in a state of constant internal rage after rained on when entering the map as migrants, etc.Quote from: clinodevWhen you work on the greatly anticipated stress, needs, and happiness changes, will you focus more on fixing the little bugs that made your original plan not work, or more on modifying the algorithm to run stress towards "okay" rather than either ecstatic or misery until well-run, safe fortresses stop breaking around the 5-6 year mark (without extreme micromanagement?) Likely some of each, but have you decided a focus?
Note I'm not asking if it'll be fixed, as that's been well-covered, but it would be neat to see the original plan implemented! There was a moment around August when I was actually somewhat excited the needs bugs might encourage the fixing of long-standing but trivial bugs, like allowing dwarves to: enjoy well-made meals, rather than only (secretly) craving Zebra hearts or polar bear brains; seek out their specifically needed temple; seek out friendships and relationships; grab desired high-value clothes and trinkets from stockpiles, etc.
That might even be mostly the same thing, depending on how much the long-term stress problems depend on broken needs vs. e.g. broken memories. A lot of the notes I've taken down are about several issues with socializing, meal thoughts, etc. I haven't jumped into it yet, which makes it hard to answer your question completely. Issues with long-term memories inside stress-prone dwarves, that kind of thing; I haven't gotten up to speed on all of it yet, and won't until the work begins. I have some threads marked down to look at when the time comes. Ideally, a really poorly run fortress will break over the needs issues, while even an 'okay' fortress won't completely fall apart over the background stressors.
Since then, we created the stress feedback thread, read the comments, and have collected a bunch of notes. We're planning on addressing a portion of the list for the Steam release (or before, with one of the patches, however that ends up working out), and hopefully we'll land somewhere more pleasant while not falling back to the permanent euphoria days. I don't have a definite list, since the work will be coupled with some numeric investigation - as I recall, players running experiments found that unmet needs weren't actually a stressor, just more of an annoying blaring siren which doesn't actually cause much stress (which needs to be looked at for that reason), and I need to see how the numbers are actually shaking out on the famous rain rememberance example vs. the body hauling work vs. cave adaptation nausea vs. etc. Then there are the more positive ideas along the lines of people comforting each other more and having some more fort-wide happy thoughts when the player does things like win sieges. We still want poorly run forts to have trouble, but forts that are run well should have more isolated/fixable problems, and those should be explained well and feel satisfying.
Post by: clinodev on July 02, 2020, 05:15:09 pm
Post by: ror6ax on July 03, 2020, 02:53:35 am
Quote
k/v/q/t being four modes instead of one way of interacting more generally
YAAAASSSSSSS
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 03, 2020, 03:34:27 am
I didn't have any concerns with my technical questions: they were purely technical. I guess a full decoupling of text from graphics means there's no pressure to change the text character set, as the characters displayed as "graphics" in character mode no longer have to be in the text set.
As long as it doesn't result in e.g. k/k-v/k-q/k-t, i.e. interact key (here loo'k') followed by another key to select the interaction sub mode if not the default one, as that would be worse than the current system (especially if it would force you to go through a list before selecting the sub mode, e.g. when a dorf is standing on a cluttered workshop with dropped items on top of the workshop and the clutter inside).Quotek/v/q/t being four modes instead of one way of interacting more generally
YAAAASSSSSSS
Post by: ror6ax on July 03, 2020, 08:09:38 am
Quote
As long as it doesn't result in e.g. k/k-v/k-q/k-t, i.e. interact key (here loo'k') followed by another key
Dear Armok, no. One "interact" key or left mouse click, that knows what to do depending on the type of the object. I don't know for the life of me, why it wasn't like that from the beginning.
Look makes most sense to be a mouse hover event. So far we only have one text field to put look information in, but it could be a popup window in graphical mode and there you can put anything and everything about an object or a dwarf.
Post by: AliceRed on July 03, 2020, 09:36:33 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 03, 2020, 11:14:11 am
The problem is "knows what to do depending on the type of object" as in my example. I'll leave it at that to allow the thread to go back on track.QuoteAs long as it doesn't result in e.g. k/k-v/k-q/k-t, i.e. interact key (here loo'k') followed by another key
Dear Armok, no. One "interact" key or left mouse click, that knows what to do depending on the type of the object. I don't know for the life of me, why it wasn't like that from the beginning.
Look makes most sense to be a mouse hover event. So far we only have one text field to put look information in, but it could be a popup window in graphical mode and there you can put anything and everything about an object or a dwarf.
Post by: Borzoi on July 04, 2020, 11:13:13 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 04, 2020, 11:14:57 pm
I imagine this was already asked before, and answered in turn, but what's the possibility of expanding the range of text characters that can be used to represent a tile? I'm not really sure of the technicalities of how that works, so I imagine there might be a practical restriction on it.Lime green text if that's a question you want Toady to answer.
From a couple of days ago was this, if that's what you're asking:
Quote
Quote from: PatrikLundell
A few reasonably near time technical questions that may not have been decided on yet:
As far as I understand, the CP437 character set is going to be replaced with a wider set.
1A. Is the set going to be the same for actual text as for character graphics?
1B. Is the set going to be fixed size (e.g. 16 bit), or variable size (e.g. Unicode)?
1C. If the set(s) has been decided on, can you tell us what it is?
I have gotten the impression that the current set of 15 colors is going to be replaced by a wider set(s).
2A. I've seen indications that named colors will be usable, would that be in addition to RGB or instead of RGB?
2B. If both versions are supported, will you be able to use one or the other at will, or will each color usage situation have a fixed definition (or some being fixed and some variable)?
2C. Assuming named colors can be used, would they be fixed or defined in a RAW file where the users can add additional ones for use in RAWs?
Toady:
We haven't decided if we're going to use a wider set -- we're juuust starting to experiment with our first text-bearing buttons, and we'll see what comes out of that. The graphical tiles and the interface tiles are completely decoupled now, so the only relationships between their sizes are just based on what makes a nice button with an animal/item picture next to it, etc. I'm just using the old 8x12 font now. Dunno if we'll end up somewhere else, either in terms of fixed size or fixed width or anything else, though we've had trouble supporting ttf in the past and I'm not sure what issues there are implementing unicode. It's not as crucial as some of the absolutely horrible stuff about the UI, as long as it is legible.
The wider color ranges are used in recoloring the graphical tile set (weapon materials, gems, etc.), and those colors are already defined in a raw file (descriptor_color_standard.txt), but I haven't done anything with text yet. DF text has always been printed using 24 bit color, and it just artificially narrowed the range. So it would just take a few minutes to get it to print in any RGB color, as a technical matter, but it's a matter of where that is used. Certainly there are lots of places where it would make sense.
Having done nothing with it makes it difficult to comment on usage. The descriptor raw file is more for in-game stuff though, so for some UI text unrelated to game objects, something more along the lines of data/init/colors.txt would be appropriate. But if the text is, say, of an in-game material and we want it to be the same color as that material (possibly brightened if it is too dark), then that would still use a raw color definition.
Post by: Borzoi on July 05, 2020, 01:58:31 am
Post by: Mort Stroodle on July 06, 2020, 09:58:01 pm
This whole concept is extremely interesting to me, characters like Spock and Data in Star Trek always get me thinking hard about what exactly it is that motivates people, and how much of the human experience is directed by emotion.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 06, 2020, 10:13:20 pm
We can now raise our citizens as intelligent undead, who retain all their conversational skills and personality traits, and act with wills of their own, yet have zero emotions. Emotion and motivation are closely tied, and trying to untangle them gets messy. For me it's hard to really comprehend what it would even mean for someone to lack all emotions. To my understanding, even people with Alexithymia don't outright lack all emotions, much of it is a more complicated inability to understand their own emotions. So with intelligent undead, who have no emotion yet behave in many ways like regular members of the fort... is it all an act? Are they just "pretending" to be the person they once were? Are they operating entirely on habit? What are your thoughts on the philosophical implications of having motivated people with zero emotions at all?I imagine any thinking has been put off until after Mythgen when the exact nature of master-zombie relationships and how much free will that implies has been developed.
This whole concept is extremely interesting to me, characters like Spock and Data in Star Trek always get me thinking hard about what exactly it is that motivates people, and how much of the human experience is directed by emotion.
Post by: Wieniawa on July 07, 2020, 10:45:24 am
2. If Steam version is going to expand upon overground farming, can we expect NPC farms?
3. Also re farming, can we expect to be able to dig stones from the ground and fill holes with dirt? So far when you’re farming above ground you end up with a lot of holes in the middle of the farm, if you happen to have stone tiles in the middle.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 07, 2020, 12:29:04 pm
1. On some Steam version screenshots, some creatures seem to be multi-tile. Can we expect multi-tile creatures then?1. The only multi tile "creature" in DF for the time being is the wagon. The creatures you've seen are probably the oversize ones, i.e. ones that are allowed to poke into neighboring tiles a little bit, but game wise they still occupy a single tile and have no problems moving through single tile spaces. Multi tile creatures have been mentioned in the past, but there are a number of problems with their implementation, so any attempt at those will be beyond the Myth & Magic arc (The boats and complex equipment work might possibly look at multi tile creatures, as boats will be multi tile, but that will remain to be seen).
2. If Steam version is going to expand upon overground farming, can we expect NPC farms?
3. Also re farming, can we expect to be able to dig stones from the ground and fill holes with dirt? So far when you’re farming above ground you end up with a lot of holes in the middle of the farm, if you happen to have stone tiles in the middle.
2. No major features are intended to be implemented for the Premium release. The time is already too short for bug fixes, stress, UI improvements (which will probably include some minor functionality changes), and graphics.
3. No. This is related to the issue of moving material around in smaller chunks that whole tiles, and probably require support that the Map Rewrite (part of the Myth & Magic release groundwork) might introduce. Such a change ought to make sand and clay deposits deplete rather than being unlimited, and the logic required for that ought to be reasonably easily adapted to soil shuffling as well. (The stones can be worked around by muddying the rocky patches, or you can channel away the whole first soil layer over the farming area to get uniform farming areas using the current DF version).
Post by: Wieniawa on July 07, 2020, 01:06:57 pm
I'm really late but the comparisons to CDDA are kind of shallow IMO, cataclysm's buidlings are pre-built chunks (just randomly populated with items and mobs) and adding them kind of goes contrary to this game's goals of having everything be generated, which is far off but is the goal.
To be fair, real-life buildings follow certain patterns so this would probably be the best way to do it. Create prefabs for the game to use, sets of furniture/items that match occupant’s civilisation, profession, wealth etc. and voila, a realistic world.
Post by: Liamar on July 08, 2020, 02:16:02 pm
2. Will we ever have fences to keep livestock separated without a full wall?
3. Will we have dog breeds at some point? General domesticated breeds, selective breeding, explicit (dif name, sprite) or just trait-based? Sentient breeds, half-breeds?
4. Will fort mode ever receive a more real time clock with day-night cycle?
Post by: Bumber on July 08, 2020, 10:35:09 pm
1. Will animal training ever extend to herding?
2. Will we ever have fences to keep livestock separated without a full wall?
3. Will we have dog breeds at some point? General domesticated breeds, selective breeding, explicit (dif name, sprite) or just trait-based? Sentient breeds, half-breeds?
4. Will fort mode ever receive a more real time clock with day-night cycle?
These are more like suggestions, and should be put here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) if they haven't been suggested already. (I'm pretty sure #2 and #4 already have been.)
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 09, 2020, 02:51:12 am
:4. Most probably not. Fortress mode uses an accelerated time where dorfs walk at 1/72 the speed of adventure mode, drinks twice a month, etc. While it certainly would be possible to change from accelerated time to real time (or a lesser acceleration), the result would be that any kind of fortress scale project would take forever to accomplish. Do you really want a DF year to take 3 real world years (assuming you spend 8 hours a day, every day, with no pausing [although a DF year is slightly shorter than a real world one])? A fortress day/might cycle at the current time scale would just add an annoying color scheme change cycle at a fairly high rate.
4. Will fort mode ever receive a more real time clock with day-night cycle?
Post by: BrythonLexi on July 09, 2020, 03:49:28 pm
EDIT: It appears attributes do not change, but for some reason, personality does? This is bizzare. Maybe it's just Dwarf Therapist preferring high skills and not actually a game hard-coded thing.
Edit of edit: I was mistaken in my findings; it was a misinterpretation of the data Dwarf Therapist gave out.
Post by: Mort Stroodle on July 09, 2020, 09:40:24 pm
Post by: AliceRed on July 10, 2020, 02:38:26 pm
I'm really late but the comparisons to CDDA are kind of shallow IMO, cataclysm's buidlings are pre-built chunks (just randomly populated with items and mobs) and adding them kind of goes contrary to this game's goals of having everything be generated, which is far off but is the goal.
To be fair, real-life buildings follow certain patterns so this would probably be the best way to do it. Create prefabs for the game to use, sets of furniture/items that match occupant’s civilisation, profession, wealth etc. and voila, a realistic world.
Except that Toady markedly has mentioned many times he isn't lookign to create a "realistic" world, just create a complete random fantasy world generator. He outright mentioned in the big Myth and Magic plans interview he'd like the way the world and culture is built to differ every game and depend on elements of the setting itself - like in a world where teleportation magic is easy, it being integrated into society more than say roads are. Combine this with his plans to eventually make it so that you can have every single race and creature in the game be procedurally generated if you like, and pre-built building chunks would feel shallow and artificial, which to me goes against the point of this project. I believe he's even mentioned plans to completely overhaul the way the entire game world is generated to better suit his goals in this regard, with a total map rework being the first step in the big wait.
What's more likely is that he'll try and make it so buildings generate schematics procedurally, especially as he answered one of my questions a while back about desiring other planes which are just endless buildings/dungeons like some depictions of hell are.
Post by: Pillbo on July 10, 2020, 07:19:22 pm
I'm really late but the comparisons to CDDA are kind of shallow IMO, cataclysm's buidlings are pre-built chunks (just randomly populated with items and mobs) and adding them kind of goes contrary to this game's goals of having everything be generated, which is far off but is the goal.
To be fair, real-life buildings follow certain patterns so this would probably be the best way to do it. Create prefabs for the game to use, sets of furniture/items that match occupant’s civilisation, profession, wealth etc. and voila, a realistic world.
Except that Toady markedly has mentioned many times he isn't lookign to create a "realistic" world, just create a complete random fantasy world generator. He outright mentioned in the big Myth and Magic plans interview he'd like the way the world and culture is built to differ every game and depend on elements of the setting itself - like in a world where teleportation magic is easy, it being integrated into society more than say roads are. Combine this with his plans to eventually make it so that you can have every single race and creature in the game be procedurally generated if you like, and pre-built building chunks would feel shallow and artificial, which to me goes against the point of this project. I believe he's even mentioned plans to completely overhaul the way the entire game world is generated to better suit his goals in this regard, with a total map rework being the first step in the big wait.
What's more likely is that he'll try and make it so buildings generate schematics procedurally, especially as he answered one of my questions a while back about desiring other planes which are just endless buildings/dungeons like some depictions of hell are.
I don't really see the difference. Right now procedurally generated things in the game are made from pre-made chunks and we're all happy. You take a body type, a material, some different biological features are added or removed, and sometimes a special attack, put it together and you get an enormous hairy slug made of filth with wings and two skinny tails, it squirms and fidgets, beware it's fire breath. That doesn't feel shallow or artificial just because I know slugs, filth, hair, wings, tails, fire breath, squirming are per-defined somewhere in the raws.
You can still generate schematics that mix and match different real and fantasy features of a buildings (materials, entrances, furniture, decorations, room layouts, size, tools, populating creatures, etc) from pre-defined chunks, put em together and generate a building. Sounds pretty similar to what people are saying CDDA does.
Post by: AliceRed on July 11, 2020, 02:42:13 am
I would be pretty annoyed if i set the "randomness" slider all the way to the side only to see the same buildings dwarves, elves, and other vanilla fantasy cultures use rather than something new and fitting of the different alien creatures such a world would create. If you read the far off dev plans and Toady's interviews re: magic, I find it strongly likely things will only get more complicated with time, not less so.
Post by: KristoffPL on July 12, 2020, 09:35:56 am
Post by: Pillbo on July 12, 2020, 04:29:20 pm
CDDA doesn't really do that though - as somebody who dearly loves and plays the game regularly, I can recognize when buildings repeat over and over. The only differences are item placement, mob population, and if windows are broken or not. Furniture, layout, etc. etc. are all completely pre-built, and sometimes even item placement is deterministic based off the building chunk loaded (such as there often being a region map at the top of radio towers).
I would be pretty annoyed if i set the "randomness" slider all the way to the side only to see the same buildings dwarves, elves, and other vanilla fantasy cultures use rather than something new and fitting of the different alien creatures such a world would create. If you read the far off dev plans and Toady's interviews re: magic, I find it strongly likely things will only get more complicated with time, not less so.
It still sounds to me like we're mostly talking about the degrees of pre-built. CDDA (again, just how it seems from these comments) uses floor plans + random items + random creatures + random damage. If that was dozens-hundreds of variables that accounted for culture, biology, geology, environment, history and available resources would they all still feel the same? Is the system flawed or is it used differently for different game's needs?
Generally speaking, a way for people to create their own building designs (like raw-files for creatures) for their worlds to use is probably a good thing, especially since magic, customs, and economy stuff is all so far away. It doesn't mean it would need to replace a better procgen building system to come. Even after all those updates people would still want to design the buildings of their worlds for themed mods and whatnot.
Made me think of a question:
When the 'randomness' slider is in effect for worlds, will that change the composition of Forgotten Beast & other procgen creatures? As in- would a low random world severely limit body plan & materials, or a high random world incorporate even more potential body plans.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 12, 2020, 04:45:38 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on July 12, 2020, 04:50:59 pm
Post by: Ggobs on July 14, 2020, 05:55:04 pm
Post by: LordBaal on July 14, 2020, 06:03:17 pm
Post by: AliceRed on July 14, 2020, 07:42:22 pm
Mostly what's been described so far is a "fantasy" slider. All the way up and everything is procedurally generated. Half-way (default) for Tolkien inspired fantasy plus some proc gen beasts, as we have now. And all the way down for no fantasy at all (human worlds).
Toady mentioned three sliders - fantasy, randomness and something akin to bleakness. Fantasy determines how much magic is in the world, randomness determines how much like traditional fantasy with predictable things like Dwarves and Elves it is, and the third one handles how grim and horrifying the setting is. You can see the early roots of the randomness slider just in the Mythgen snippets he showed years back - it presented completely abnormal and unusual races such as a race of magical lizard-people. The randomness slider will essentially affect how much the world is just like "normal" DF these days or it's something completely different.
On the topic of buildings, I would still prefer a framework for buildings to be genuinely generated and unique rather than drawing from simple templates, but I suppose it's better to ask Toady himself.
Do you think that the map rework or any future updates or changes will introduce a more dynamic and individualized way of generating buildings?
Post by: Bumber on July 14, 2020, 08:09:50 pm
Toady mentioned three sliders - fantasy, randomness and something akin to bleakness.
Violence? IIRC, he mentioned worlds where nobody could get injured.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 14, 2020, 08:33:31 pm
Yeah, no death at all to totally bleak and horrific. The "violence slider". I'm sure they'll all get better names in time when it's clear what they'll effect.Toady mentioned three sliders - fantasy, randomness and something akin to bleakness.
Violence? IIRC, he mentioned worlds where nobody could get injured.
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on July 15, 2020, 06:05:50 am
In what old DF version if goblins steal elven, human and dwarven children, they build dwarven, human and elven buildings in dark pits and dark fortress?I'm really late but the comparisons to CDDA are kind of shallow IMO, cataclysm's buidlings are pre-built chunks (just randomly populated with items and mobs) and adding them kind of goes contrary to this game's goals of having everything be generated, which is far off but is the goal.
To be fair, real-life buildings follow certain patterns so this would probably be the best way to do it. Create prefabs for the game to use, sets of furniture/items that match occupant’s civilisation, profession, wealth etc. and voila, a realistic world.
Except that Toady markedly has mentioned many times he isn't lookign to create a "realistic" world, just create a complete random fantasy world generator. He outright mentioned in the big Myth and Magic plans interview he'd like the way the world and culture is built to differ every game and depend on elements of the setting itself - like in a world where teleportation magic is easy, it being integrated into society more than say roads are. Combine this with his plans to eventually make it so that you can have every single race and creature in the game be procedurally generated if you like, and pre-built building chunks would feel shallow and artificial, which to me goes against the point of this project. I believe he's even mentioned plans to completely overhaul the way the entire game world is generated to better suit his goals in this regard, with a total map rework being the first step in the big wait.
What's more likely is that he'll try and make it so buildings generate schematics procedurally, especially as he answered one of my questions a while back about desiring other planes which are just endless buildings/dungeons like some depictions of hell are.
I don't really see the difference. Right now procedurally generated things in the game are made from pre-made chunks and we're all happy. You take a body type, a material, some different biological features are added or removed, and sometimes a special attack, put it together and you get an enormous hairy slug made of filth with wings and two skinny tails, it squirms and fidgets, beware it's fire breath. That doesn't feel shallow or artificial just because I know slugs, filth, hair, wings, tails, fire breath, squirming are per-defined somewhere in the raws.
You can still generate schematics that mix and match different real and fantasy features of a buildings (materials, entrances, furniture, decorations, room layouts, size, tools, populating creatures, etc) from pre-defined chunks, put em together and generate a building. Sounds pretty similar to what people are saying CDDA does.
Post by: Pillbo on July 18, 2020, 12:23:54 pm
I know this type of thing is hard to predict, but a question about the Myth/Magic/Map Rewrite. Assuming the (hopefully) extreme estimates are correct it could be 4+ years for the whole update. What I was wondering about is how modular that map rewrite code itself will be. I know the myth/magic stuff can't work without the map rewrite, but could the current game work with the map rewrite? If the rewrite doesn't break the game would there be any benefit to releasing that part to break up the Long Wait?
Post by: voliol on July 18, 2020, 12:27:37 pm
I know this type of thing is hard to predict, but a question about the Myth/Magic/Map Rewrite. Assuming the (hopefully) extreme estimates are correct it could be 4+ years for the whole update. What I was wondering about is how modular that map rewrite code itself will be. I know the myth/magic stuff can't work without the map rewrite, but could the current game work with the map rewrite? If the rewrite doesn't break the game would there be any benefit to releasing that part to break up the Long Wait?
I think that's the plan. A release with just the map rewrite would be kind of anticlimactic so part of the Myth&Magic release will come with it, and the rest of it will be packed in subsequent post-Big Wait releases.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 18, 2020, 06:07:32 pm
The map rewrite will break things in many ways (which is a major reason for why it hasn't been done earlier), so saves will not be backwards compatible. I've asked earlier in the FotF about a midpoint release where the map rewrite was done and the game stitched back together with mostly the current functionality, and Toady didn't see any point in doing that (my points would be to get something new to play with, plus getting some testing, but that was before the Premium release decision, which probably will result in Toady providing updates for the latest released version from time to time, rather than nothing for 3-7 years). I suspect Toady hasn't changed his mind since.
I know this type of thing is hard to predict, but a question about the Myth/Magic/Map Rewrite. Assuming the (hopefully) extreme estimates are correct it could be 4+ years for the whole update. What I was wondering about is how modular that map rewrite code itself will be. I know the myth/magic stuff can't work without the map rewrite, but could the current game work with the map rewrite? If the rewrite doesn't break the game would there be any benefit to releasing that part to break up the Long Wait?
Post by: squamous on July 19, 2020, 04:50:44 pm
1. Will the military update allow non-party adventure mode NPCs or fortress dwarves to ride mounts around? Would larger ones be able to have howdahs or an equivalent to support multiple riders? Mostly thinking of elephants here but maybe the amount of passengers could scale according to size, I dunno how it would work.
2. In the previous FOTF you outlined how in the far future different dimensions would work. How much could modders customize these other dimensions? For example, could I make a scifi mod where I make a different "dimension" to represent different planets and moons in the solar system (taking into account stone/minerals, flora and fauna, etc), and create civilizations for each? Or at least create civilizations in the dimensions that are added? Obviously that'd take a lot of processing power but I'm just speaking hypothetically.
3. What sort of raw data currently inaccessible to modders do you think will become available in the near future? Just off the top of my head, there's water, the weather descriptors, the color of the sky, stuff like that.
4. What exactly is the difference between armor levels 2 and 3 in regards to how entities decide use it? I know both correspond to melee units, representing chain and plate armor respectively (with the exception of soldiers of a civilization, which can get level 2 or 3 chest and head gear), but I can't find much information one what causes a civilization or NPC to decide to/be able to equip one or the other.
5. In adventure mode I have seen NPCs in taverns wearing armor made from multiple materials that were exclusive to a single civilization. So it was wearing armor made from metal exclusive to Civ A, and also another piece made with metal exclusive to Civ B. I'm curious how that works. Do NPCs loot equipment or gain access to materials from particular civs by spending some time with them?
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 19, 2020, 05:34:52 pm
1. If Toady intends to try to support it he typically won't say it because of the backlash from people when "promised" things failed to make it it. I can't see multiple riders being a thing within the current scope, as it would probably mess around with things too much.
1. Will the military update allow non-party adventure mode NPCs or fortress dwarves to ride mounts around? Would larger ones be able to have howdahs or an equivalent to support multiple riders? Mostly thinking of elephants here but maybe the amount of passengers could scale according to size, I dunno how it would work.
2. In the previous FOTF you outlined how in the far future different dimensions would work. How much could modders customize these other dimensions? For example, could I make a scifi mod where I make a different "dimension" to represent different planets and moons in the solar system (taking into account stone/minerals, flora and fauna, etc), and create civilizations for each? Obviously that'd take a lot of processing power but I'm just speaking hypothetically.
3. What sort of things currently inaccessible to modders do you think will become available in the near future? Just off the top of my head, there's water, the weather descriptors, the color of the sky, stuff like that.
2. As far as I understand earlier answers the other dimensions effectively have to be a lot smaller than the current world (whether they are in total or just the parts you can reach doesn't matter too much), because of the resource explosion resulting from each dimension being a full world in itself (generating 10 histories, etc. with a significant risk of exceeding the physical memory, making thing slower, etc.).
3. "The near future" in my view is, at most, the time before the start of the big wait, but "the color of the sky" part seems to indicate the (first) Myth & Magic arc. It's probably a good idea to update the question to make it a bit more precise.
Post by: squamous on July 20, 2020, 05:50:38 am
1. If Toady intends to try to support it he typically won't say it because of the backlash from people when "promised" things failed to make it it. I can't see multiple riders being a thing within the current scope, as it would probably mess around with things too much.
1. Will the military update allow non-party adventure mode NPCs or fortress dwarves to ride mounts around? Would larger ones be able to have howdahs or an equivalent to support multiple riders? Mostly thinking of elephants here but maybe the amount of passengers could scale according to size, I dunno how it would work.
2. In the previous FOTF you outlined how in the far future different dimensions would work. How much could modders customize these other dimensions? For example, could I make a scifi mod where I make a different "dimension" to represent different planets and moons in the solar system (taking into account stone/minerals, flora and fauna, etc), and create civilizations for each? Obviously that'd take a lot of processing power but I'm just speaking hypothetically.
3. What sort of things currently inaccessible to modders do you think will become available in the near future? Just off the top of my head, there's water, the weather descriptors, the color of the sky, stuff like that.
2. As far as I understand earlier answers the other dimensions effectively have to be a lot smaller than the current world (whether they are in total or just the parts you can reach doesn't matter too much), because of the resource explosion resulting from each dimension being a full world in itself (generating 10 histories, etc. with a significant risk of exceeding the physical memory, making thing slower, etc.).
3. "The near future" in my view is, at most, the time before the start of the big wait, but "the color of the sky" part seems to indicate the (first) Myth & Magic arc. It's probably a good idea to update the question to make it a bit more precise.
Regarding question 2, I suppose my main question would be can I make civilizations in other dimensions? That's what I'm most curious about.
Post by: voliol on July 20, 2020, 06:21:56 am
-snip-
2. Physical memory issues should be null on the 64-bit version.
-snip-
As I recall, one of Threetoe's stories had goblins living in the underworld, so the answer should be yes.
Post by: therahedwig on July 20, 2020, 08:14:43 am
But... you could have worlds that consist of two even-sized dimensions. And I thought the description in dftalk of worlds that kinda expand as you poke around in them was also pretty cool :p
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 21, 2020, 02:08:01 am
While other dimensions may have civs in them, that doesn't have to mean that those civs have a fully fleshed out history and a complete set of habitations in a world. Alien civs can be reduced to something akin to a site government for the purpose of interacting with inhabitants of the "main" dimension, and the presence of such civs does not automatically mean they'd be playable in either fortress or adventure mode (in the latter case I can imagine a "visitor" from the other dimension playing in the main one, but it might be a fair bit of work to make it possible to play on the other side).
Post by: voliol on July 21, 2020, 10:13:56 am
Now now, to be fair, the physical memory issues would be on the user end, and as not everyone understands what ram/working memory
Apparently including those people include me, as I totally confused the two concepts. Nevermind me, then.
Post by: Bumber on July 26, 2020, 10:36:24 pm
The thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176070.0
Demo video: https://youtu.be/477ioY1CXa8?t=77
Post by: Prismatic on July 27, 2020, 09:46:23 am
Code: [Select]
[CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED]On a similar note, the wiki (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Syndrome#Counter_Triggers) details 8 counters for use with the COUNTER_TRIGGER effect, but does not reference a source for this information. As such, are there any other counters available besides those included in the following list?
Spoiler: counters (click to show/hide)
Post by: Eschar on July 27, 2020, 08:14:15 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 28, 2020, 12:20:05 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 28, 2020, 02:24:14 am
"Partied out"?If that terse question asks what the term means, I would assume it is a count down during a period from the last party during which the character has no need to attend another. Since parties were removed/disabled in the needs rewrite I assume it currently does nothing.
Post by: Dragonslayerelf on July 28, 2020, 07:31:13 am
I've been wanting to play a fortress thats kinda like Dorwinion and has a dichotomy between two different species of sentient people working in harmony, but I'm wondering if mechanically that's something that's going to be in the works.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 28, 2020, 09:45:22 am
Are there any plans for non-dwarven (or fort race) migrants that exist in your civ and mixed civs?Take a look at Legends (or use a util like Legends Viewer) all civs are mixed already. Elf civ dwarves, goblin civ humans, dwarf civ goblins and all the civilized animal people and escaped necromancer experiments living in each of the main civs.
I've been wanting to play a fortress thats kinda like Dorwinion and has a dichotomy between two different species of sentient people working in harmony, but I'm wondering if mechanically that's something that's going to be in the works.
Migrants themselves, yes, seem to be hardcoded to being dwarves (or whatever your main race is). But you can make non-dwarf visitors into citizens already so mechanically everything is in place. Just needs switching on.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 28, 2020, 10:54:52 am
Migrants themselves, yes, seem to be hardcoded to being dwarves (or whatever your main race is). But you can make non-dwarf visitors into citizens already so mechanically everything is in place. Just needs switching on.
Bringing in members other than your race might slightly undermine future dwarf hold activities. Topical dwarven subjects like artifacts (if nobody produces them, there are no internal familial disputes or explicit reprecussions) and guilds (dwarves usually live enough to be masters or legendary leading to big guilds, while a human will be lucky to be a expert and not die of old age or in a war)
There's also plenty of sources of non-migrant joiners that don't exactly work. Like economic links offering no requests, and patricklundell will vouch for the many issues currently with the only non-fortress tamable & joinable creature of the gremlin in vanilla DF (and the pseudo-modded situation of whether semi-intelligent/tame full intelligent is purely defined as slavery)
Visitors for instance are notoriously hard to breed, ontop of the fact that they won't divorce if their partner is not present in the fortress, which you'd think would come naturally if you've moved a significant measure of distance apart to apply for citizenship but not extended visa to your family.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 28, 2020, 02:03:29 pm
Are there any plans for non-dwarven (or fort race) migrants that exist in your civ and mixed civs?As mentioned by others, you can bring in other races by accepting petitions from visiting scholars and performers, and with luck you may be able to get enough breeding pairs to get a generic base for one or more other races. The luck factor is important, though, because it seems the set of visitors available to your fortress gets determined at the embark, and they're not replaced when they die of old age and foolishly trying to enter the fortress when there's a full necro siege ongoing.
I've been wanting to play a fortress thats kinda like Dorwinion and has a dichotomy between two different species of sentient people working in harmony, but I'm wondering if mechanically that's something that's going to be in the works.
Successful breeding of other races more or less requires that you check the visitors (using Legends Mode info) for spouses that might migrate to the fortress as well, or, for the bachelors, that they're actually willing to commit to hetero marriages (using DFHack, as most won't). Avoid mercs and monster slayers, as they'll never become citizens, and definitely stay away from the bugged performance troupes (which is where most/all elves and goblins are found).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 28, 2020, 04:22:10 pm
I guess it'll make more sense once we see the screenshots later.
Post by: DG on July 29, 2020, 01:45:38 am
Post by: Buttery_Mess on July 29, 2020, 09:59:33 am
I have to say that not having to pause the game to make any changes when things are running slow sounds like a great feature, I think I spend more time paused than running in older forts.
Post by: Su on July 29, 2020, 11:55:58 am
min/max FPS
setting a minimum framerate wouldn't really do anything, though. if the game needs more time to compute everything going on, well, it's going to take that time. it can't skip things.
Post by: Uthimienure on July 29, 2020, 12:37:36 pm
We currently have this:
Alt = and Alt - adjust the maximum FPS while playing.
Or you can change the keys to whatever you like while playing by ESC, Key Bindings, General, Increase FPS Limit (or Decrease...)
Post by: Beag on July 29, 2020, 06:05:17 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 29, 2020, 06:19:28 pm
In one of the recent dwarf fortress talks you mentioned a spell where the user sacrifices a bit of their flesh to bruise their target. Seeing a spell no one in their right mind would use made me wonder; in addition to the other myth generation configuration settings would how balanced magic is be another possible setting we could configure when generating the myth for a world? Like at one end is very underpowered the the other end is very over powered?Would that even be possible? The magic in the vanilla game right now is nowhere near balanced. Necromancers can make nightmare beasts, intelligent magical lieutenants and go on zombie horde rampages while other civs....can't. Is Mythgen really going to be able to judge how "Balanced" all it's systems are while generating them? Do we even want it to?
Not much magic vs lots of magic is about the best we can expect probably.
Post by: Eric Blank on July 29, 2020, 06:53:02 pm
Spoiler: big quote stack (click to show/hide)
Whether or not it's possible to make will depend on whether Toady applies a numerical value to effects and costs, possibly through their syndromes severity and duration. It would then allow him to adjust the base values of those and make the power slider apply a variable modifier to determine how much stronger/weaker the severity and duration of effects are compared their costs.
So I bet toady could do it, but he'll have to make that an intended feature. They'd of course need to be tested and adjusted
Post by: DG on July 30, 2020, 06:39:45 am
Seeing a spell no one in their right mind would use
A do-damage-to-something-but-more-to-yourself attack has applications depending on the situation and how desperate you are. A little imagination is all you need to think of a situation where you'd be willing to knock someone out for the price of losing an arm if there's no other way for you to manage it and you feel that you really really need to get it done. Even something as weak as bruising for the price of flesh could have use, but it's situational usefulness depends a lot on what sort of flesh you're sacrificing and whether you can grow it back. Would you lose your earlobe to bruise your opponent's eye if you've decided that you can't beat them in a fair fight? Maybe. If it's a fight to the death, then probably.
Post by: pikachu17 on July 30, 2020, 05:37:35 pm
It seems like something you've already completed that doesn't seem to have much reason to not let people use, and it seems pretty cool and fun.
Post by: Ziusudra on July 30, 2020, 05:48:57 pm
Is the public going to get access to the Myth Generator at some point? If not, why?I'm pretty sure that what he's using in the talk is a stand alone program that doesn't work with any version of DF.
It seems like something you've already completed that doesn't seem to have much reason to not let people use.
Does it only work for the dev version of df or something?
Post by: pikachu17 on July 30, 2020, 05:51:19 pm
So why isn't it released? It sounds pretty fun and it seems usable.Is the public going to get access to the Myth Generator at some point? If not, why?I'm pretty sure that what he's using in the talk is a stand alone program that doesn't work with any version of DF.
It seems like something you've already completed that doesn't seem to have much reason to not let people use.
Does it only work for the dev version of df or something?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 30, 2020, 05:55:07 pm
Because it would raise possibly false expectations for the final product.So why isn't it released? It sounds pretty fun and it seems usable.Is the public going to get access to the Myth Generator at some point? If not, why?I'm pretty sure that what he's using in the talk is a stand alone program that doesn't work with any version of DF.
It seems like something you've already completed that doesn't seem to have much reason to not let people use.
Does it only work for the dev version of df or something?
The Mythgen prototype works on imagination. The actual envisaged product has Mythgen define how DF worlds actually work. The lore of your world from environments, magic, races, innate powers, random weirdness, HFS, everything. There will be a gap, and that won't be known until programming starts.
("False expectations" is from a previous fotf somewhere).
Edit:
Quote from: KittyTacWould you consider releasing a version of your standalone myth generator prototype, like you showed off at GDC? I imagine that people would appreciate something to check out during the Big Wait.
I'd prefer not to do this. I think it both has the bar too high in some places (effect lists, at least for release one, probably) and too low in others (most everything else.) It's not reflective enough of what I want to do, and I don't want expectations to coalesce around it overmuch.
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2020, 04:11:06 pm
Quote from: Mort Stroodle
So with intelligent undead, who have no emotion yet behave in many ways like regular members of the fort... is it all an act? Are they just "pretending" to be the person they once were? Are they operating entirely on habit? What are your thoughts on the philosophical implications of having motivated people with zero emotions at all?
This whole concept is extremely interesting to me, characters like Spock and Data in Star Trek always get me thinking hard about what exactly it is that motivates people, and how much of the human experience is directed by emotion.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8163868#msg8163868
Yeah, it's true we haven't thought much about the undead particulars, because the nature of things isn't at all established. Emotions as they stand in DF are separated from thoughts, and are all reactive to them, and that's not very accurate. The last thing I read put calm/agitated + positive/negative affects as the base and everything else as being entirely socially malleable (early on), including fear responses, and that would change a lot of things - so the rules depend on where the models end up going vs. how much we continue to adhere to a more traditional model for the sake of narrative. But yeah, part of what Shonai_Dweller was referring to is the idea that the myth setup is going to define what, in a given universe, mind/soul/body/emotion/thought means, and undeath modes should end up more controlled by that. There's a series of implicit rewrites here, and avoiding a lot of work up front will also be a consideration. So who knows ha ha.
Quote from: Wieniawa
1. On some Steam version screenshots, some creatures seem to be multi-tile. Can we expect multi-tile creatures then?
2. If Steam version is going to expand upon overground farming, can we expect NPC farms?
3. Also re farming, can we expect to be able to dig stones from the ground and fill holes with dirt? So far when you’re farming above ground you end up with a lot of holes in the middle of the farm, if you happen to have stone tiles in the middle.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8164160#msg8164160
I don't have anything to add to PatrikLundell's reply. Won't be a lot of time for new features, and those we do get will be specifically related to the heavier usability issues.
Quote from: Liamar
1. Will animal training ever extend to herding?
2. Will we ever have fences to keep livestock separated without a full wall?
3. Will we have dog breeds at some point? General domesticated breeds, selective breeding, explicit (dif name, sprite) or just trait-based? Sentient breeds, half-breeds?
4. Will fort mode ever receive a more real time clock with day-night cycle?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8164758#msg8164758
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8164826#msg8164826
1/2. Herding is a bit of specialized tech work (I imagine, having never done it), but I'm all for happy dogs with jobs. All for fences, but not sure when that'll happen, for both of these.
3. The work we did on gene pools etc. was aiming toward dog breeds, and in fact there's a breed object in the game that tracks genetic profiles, it just doesn't set it aside visually for the player in the ways you suggest, and it doesn't make new ones - at some point we hope to get further there. I'm not sure what it'll end up focusing on at first.
PatrikLundell's reply on #4 covers it.
Quote from: Mort Stroodle
I know dwarf appearance varies by civ, but does it also vary by sex? Could a particular civ have, say, shaved heads being in fashion for women while braided hair is all the rage for men?
There's nothing like that currently. I think it'll still vary e.g. eye color if only one of the castes has eyes, but I'm not even sure about that.
Quote from: KristoffPL
With new music coming to the Steam/itch.io release, will the 2 tracks already present in the current version of the game be remastered (re-recorded), removed from the game completely or left as is? I feel like a lot of people associate those particular tunes with Dwarf Fortress (myself included) and it would be a nice to be able to hear them in the new version of the game in some form
I don't feel comfortable re-recording them; the title music wasn't even composed, just played on the spot, and I've long since lost the main song, though I know people have written tab down for it. We'd considered, for instance, playing the existing tracks in Legends mode and some other spots. Due to the sound quality, they wouldn't fit in with the regular rotation as a default. But it is possible they will find homes.
Quote from: Pillbo
When the 'randomness' slider is in effect for worlds, will that change the composition of Forgotten Beast & other procgen creatures? As in- would a low random world severely limit body plan & materials, or a high random world incorporate even more potential body plans.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8166251#msg8166251
We haven't gotten very far into this, but that's come up the few times we've come up with examples or set up the mythgen stuff - we restricted ourselves to humanoids at the midrange settings, and then brought on the blobs and quadrupeds and others when it is cranked all the way up. I expect that'll be how it works, for civilization races. Forgotten beasts are a different kind of example, since their relative rarity and (usual) distance from civilized areas makes them able to adopt stranger forms at lower settings (including the default, where blobs and others seem just fine.) Now, that doesn't mean that the rare critters can't be even odder at high settings -- energy beings, dual-planar beings, half-invisible beings, other oddities. That also leaves room at whatever the top levels are for civilized beings to also be that odd. We'll have to see how it all gets teased apart and then also matched up with what's ultimately playable. Even civilized blobs and quadrupeds introduce the need for certain AI changes, as modders have discovered (esp. w/ fliers, etc.), and weirder beings might just not be feasible for civilized play on the first pass.
Quote from: Ggobs
I'm curious why monthly donations end in odd cents. I'm thinking exchange rates from foreign currencies?
LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8167088#msg8167088
Yeah, the fees from Paypal can make them odd. The exchange rate on Paypal can make them odd. The Patreon cut/fees can make them odd. Also, some people give odd numbers as well. 13.37 is popular as you can imagine, and back when it was showing cents on the end of the Patreon number, somebody would very very often (like every few days, different person every time) change their amount so that the displayed total ended in 69 cents. It wouldn't surprise me if the only reason Patreon removed the cents from the display was to curtail this practice, ha ha. Changing the whole dollar amount to end in 69 is a heavier proposition.
Quote from: AliceRed
Do you think that the map rework or any future updates or changes will introduce a more dynamic and individualized way of generating buildings?
Reading through the comments that came before this question, the issue seemed to be the use of various prefabs vs. something more involved, perhaps using parameters in various algorithms and placing various metastructures over how they operate. I'm not sure where we'll end up at this point. We've mainly just experimented with bare-minimum algorithms, metadata, and parameters to this point, to finish whatever task was at hand, without giving much variability to a given creature/site/building, and it's quite a bit of work maintaining even those, compared to lists of text grids.
Overall, before we even get to buildings, we're committing to a higher level of variety when we get to the rewrites, and we'll see if some of that works in terms of defining processes for built structures. Algorithms and parameters are preferable in that they let us hook up cultural/usage/change-over-time/etc. data over larger spaces more organically, but they are harder to maintain and harder to vary/control. Both approaches can be used, but up to this point we've been stopped from using a large corpus of text map data in part because overarching changes tend to obliterate such files entirely (which makes them hard to maintain too, I guess, in that sense. We have a lot of masters here, in terms of civ data, history, 3D landforms, and other issues, which can't be overlooked.) If both things are more modular, which is part of what we'll be messing with, it'd all be a little more future proof, though modularity also sterilizes things. It'll be fun, anyway.
Quote from: Pillbo
I know this type of thing is hard to predict, but a question about the Myth/Magic/Map Rewrite. Assuming the (hopefully) extreme estimates are correct it could be 4+ years for the whole update. What I was wondering about is how modular that map rewrite code itself will be. I know the myth/magic stuff can't work without the map rewrite, but could the current game work with the map rewrite? If the rewrite doesn't break the game would there be any benefit to releasing that part to break up the Long Wait?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8168410#msg8168410
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8168512#msg8168512
Yeah, I haven't particularly changed my mind on bundling some stuff in with the map rewrite. I don't see a benefit to putting it up if it doesn't bring something new with it; I'm not even sure why players want it if it adds nothing by itself. PatrikLundell's mention of testing is something at least, but weighing that against it being a ~year-long dud still leaves the addition of other features attractive to me. That said, the intervening Steam release could also have an effect on how the Big Wait goes down (I have no idea what, but it seems possible. The proposed fixer-upper branches are one part of it, but the sense of releases may change in whatever unknown way over that time.)
Quote from: squamous
1. Will the military update allow non-party adventure mode NPCs or fortress dwarves to ride mounts around? Would larger ones be able to have howdahs or an equivalent to support multiple riders? Mostly thinking of elephants here but maybe the amount of passengers could scale according to size, I dunno how it would work.
2. In the previous FOTF you outlined how in the far future different dimensions would work. How much could modders customize these other dimensions? For example, could I make a scifi mod where I make a different "dimension" to represent different planets and moons in the solar system (taking into account stone/minerals, flora and fauna, etc), and create civilizations for each? Or at least create civilizations in the dimensions that are added? Obviously that'd take a lot of processing power but I'm just speaking hypothetically.
3. What sort of raw data currently inaccessible to modders do you think will become available in the near future? Just off the top of my head, there's water, the weather descriptors, the color of the sky, stuff like that.
4. What exactly is the difference between armor levels 2 and 3 in regards to how entities decide use it? I know both correspond to melee units, representing chain and plate armor respectively (with the exception of soldiers of a civilization, which can get level 2 or 3 chest and head gear), but I can't find much information one what causes a civilization or NPC to decide to/be able to equip one or the other.
5. In adventure mode I have seen NPCs in taverns wearing armor made from multiple materials that were exclusive to a single civilization. So it was wearing armor made from metal exclusive to Civ A, and also another piece made with metal exclusive to Civ B. I'm curious how that works. Do NPCs loot equipment or gain access to materials from particular civs by spending some time with them?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8168904#msg8168904
squamous (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8169074#msg8169074
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8169081#msg8169081
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8169112#msg8169112
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8169410#msg8169410
1. Yeah, no idea if that's where we are headed with the military stuff that happens post-Steam at this point, in terms of random additions that surround the core stuff - mounted dwarves is never at the very top of any list.
2. However the generator can relate the planes, however that's modularly cut up, should be available to modders. I don't currently know if that'll include things like x/y/z coordinates; it very well could, but I wouldn't commit to it. For civs, there's the two-mode model that has come up a few times: time/civs/space as they occur in myth, and time/civs/space as they occur in current worldgen. In the examples I've spoken about, the civ action in other planes always happened in mythgen, and then was essentially relegated to "hidden/lost/destroyed" by the time regular worldgen started.
However, some of the setups we've considered as core mythgen scenarios don't work this way. For instance, having two 129x65 worlds that are paired to each other in whatever way takes about as many resources as running history on a single 129x129 world - they can share the cap or have two smaller caps or however. Then we'd have full rich histories in two worlds, and they can be intermingled by portal travel or divine intervention or whatever. For the infinite planes etc., we'd have to be much more careful, but it'd still be possible to have crucial places (travel/plane hubs, divine seats, capitals, etc.) have complete rich parallel histories, lessened only by the way that extraplanar things that touch them seem to disappear more or have less of a defined-yet-sprawling character (compared to worldgen farmland/etc.) We should be able to get a long way like this though, in some senses as far as a lot of the works set in such multiverses which also focus almost entirely on the important bits.
In other mushier infinite setups, there might be nothing historical at all away from the core play zone, if there is even one of those.
3. In the near-term, before the rewrite? Nothing particular comes to mind, though the Steam release itself is going to open up quite a bit of modding possibility (in Classic as well), just more on the interface/display side of inaccessible stuff. After the rewrite, much more, but I'm not sure what - the generation parameters and whatever editors we get first will drive that.
4. It gets convoluted, so I'm not sure how this plays out now, but it looks like it chooses half the possible level 3s to be part of the uniform for invading soldiers, so that they have a mix of 2s and 3s. Do humans, say, when they come to invade, wear the level 3 sections with any consistency, in a given civilization? The code is so old and goes on such a walk now it'd be easier to just check an army to see if that happens. It doesn't look like it's used anywhere else at this point.
5. Hmm, they don't do specific looting aside from artifacts. And when it generates inventory items, it appears to use just one civilization. There's a lot of code here, so it's not clear immediately if there's another path where it might use more than one. It's also possible the civilizations themselves are picking up the materials through other means, though if they don't use the material elsewhere that's less likely.
Quote from: Prismatic
Hi Toady, I've got a modding question which I haven't been able to find an answer to. What purpose does "REQUIRED" serve in the COUNTER_TRIGGER syndrome effect, and are there any other arguments which can be used in its place? For instance, the example vampire interaction contains the following line:Code: [Select][CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED]On a similar note, the wiki details 8 counters for use with the COUNTER_TRIGGER effect, but does not reference a source for this information. As such, are there any other counters available besides those included in the following list?Spoiler: counters (click to show/hide)
It looks like REQUIRED means that the effect can't proceed if the counter exists but does not lie within the range provided. This looks like it is meant to catch some obscure case where you can have more than one of the same counter, but I'm not even sure what that situation was. It doesn't seem possible now. With COUNTER_TRIGGER, it always checks to see that the counter exists and is in the range provided, so it's redundant now, possibly.
Those are the only counters available. The game has various others, but there's no interface for them. They mostly relate to things like individual military training timing, animal training timing, hospital usage, etc.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
As Steam moves on to Villains and "stuff to do before the Big Wait" do you think you'll have another shot at cleaning up fortress unretirement? Or are the various bugs ("hostile" visitors who aren't, visitor number explosions, etc) caused by underlying issues that need save-breaking rewrites?
The issues I've seen there don't seem to be related to save issues, although sometimes that hides under the surface. Certainly as fair to take a look at as any of the serious old bugs.
Quote from: Dragonslayerelf
Are there any plans for non-dwarven (or fort race) migrants that exist in your civ and mixed civs?
I've been wanting to play a fortress thats kinda like Dorwinion and has a dichotomy between two different species of sentient people working in harmony, but I'm wondering if mechanically that's something that's going to be in the works.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8171854#msg8171854
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8171872#msg8171872
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8171920#msg8171920
People mentioned the ways you can get some small number of other creatures in the fort. We've been slowly working up to more integration - the main issue remains stuff like clothing, which isn't very satisfying with the permanent residents, I think. Having a default fort be 50/50 (if the civ is) needs more work on that kind of mixed production to be a more regular situation.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerAre the icons sliders and other graphical parts of the interface that you're adding locked to the official tileset? I'm just wondering how the new interface will work for anyone who doesn't buy the Steam version. Or indeed in Steam's curses tileset, is that Curses plus graphical icons? Different icons to match the ASCII style? Presumably all the new rectangle drawing tools and such will be fully functional?Quote from: DGAre all new UI elements and any changes to current ones supporting keyboard only input?
They are locked, insofar as everything else is - it's set up currently as the creature graphics have been, where you link up images with text files and so forth, and the fancy image sets aren't going to be in DF Classic (which is likely what the Steam curses version will be, same as the free one.) That does leave us the question of what DF Classic is, when we've been aiming for "no graphics but as many of the interface improvements as possible." We'll very soon reach a point where the changes will require some sort of substitute. Whether those are literal text buttons (with line outlines and ASCII symbols inside), or something else, is yet to be seen. The way the interface currently works where it still respects the old grid somewhat (rather than the new graphical layer, which doesn't respect the old grid, other than being a grid at all) makes it much easier to handle ASCII parallel work on an ongoing basis.
Yeah, the continuing plan, which seems feasible thus far, is to maintain keyboard alternatives everywhere. There are some questions here and there about how some nested widget might work, if various little tick boxes end up being convenient, and so forth, but having quick key/sequence methods is important.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
You mentioned in the dev blog that we're now able to set designations during unpaused play. Does that accompany some control over the play speed during play? Everything happens awfully quickly at 100FPS and awfully slowly at 5 FPS, will we have some ability to set min/max FPS during play?
I have to say that not having to pause the game to make any changes when things are running slow sounds like a great feature, I think I spend more time paused than running in older forts.
Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172217#msg8172217
Uthimienure: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172237#msg8172237
We haven't added any speed controls yet, and as Su writes, all we can do is make things go slower. 100FPS does have them zipping around a bit, and it feels slightly more uncontrolled now that the tiles are larger, so we may end up with a half speed option for people that want one. And of course, pausing is still an option.
Quote from: Beag
In one of the recent dwarf fortress talks you mentioned a spell where the user sacrifices a bit of their flesh to bruise their target. Seeing a spell no one in their right mind would use made me wonder; in addition to the other myth generation configuration settings would how balanced magic is be another possible setting we could configure when generating the myth for a world? Like at one end is very underpowered the the other end is very over powered?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172337#msg8172337
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172364#msg8172364
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172477#msg8172477
Yeah, I agree that being able to balance all the world's magic would be quite tricky. Point values are already in the prototype, and it balance costs somewhat around these (I didn't spend a lot of time on it there!), and that helps. But even simple synergies and other 'exploits' people are quite good at finding would be trickier to find and attach values to. But the general sense of power is much easier to deal with (even if that also slips up sometimes) and will assuredly have settings. In the prototype, we did these on a sphere-wise basis, attaching weights to different effects to shift the types of magic. That worked okay and can be built upon.
Quote from: pikachu17
Is the public going to get access to the Myth Generator program at some point? If not, why?
It seems like something you've already completed that doesn't seem to have much reason to not let people use, and it seems pretty cool and fun.
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172723#msg8172723
pikachu17 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172726#msg8172726
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172730#msg8172730
I don't have anything to add the quote Shonai_Dweller found. It would/could create problems down the road.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 01, 2020, 05:05:42 pm
I was a bit late to help with the limequestion replies.
Edit - removed this bit, i had senior moment and forgot how brackets worked.
Quote from: squamous4. What exactly is the difference between armor levels 2 and 3 in regards to how entities decide use it? I know both correspond to melee units, representing chain and plate armor respectively (with the exception of soldiers of a civilization, which can get level 2 or 3 chest and head gear), but I can't find much information one what causes a civilization or NPC to decide to/be able to equip one or the other.4. It gets convoluted, so I'm not sure how this plays out now, but it looks like it chooses half the possible level 3s to be part of the uniform for invading soldiers, so that they have a mix of 2s and 3s. Do humans, say, when they come to invade, wear the level 3 sections with any consistency, in a given civilization? The code is so old and goes on such a walk now it'd be easier to just check an army to see if that happens. It doesn't look like it's used anywhere else at this point.
5. In adventure mode I have seen NPCs in taverns wearing armor made from multiple materials that were exclusive to a single civilization. So it was wearing armor made from metal exclusive to Civ A, and also another piece made with metal exclusive to Civ B. I'm curious how that works. Do NPCs loot equipment or gain access to materials from particular civs by spending some time with them?
5. Hmm, they don't do specific looting aside from artifacts. And when it generates inventory items, it appears to use just one civilization. There's a lot of code here, so it's not clear immediately if there's another path where it might use more than one. It's also possible the civilizations themselves are picking up the materials through other means, though if they don't use the material elsewhere that's less likely.
Captain positions which make the mass infantry of sieges are actually very lowly ranked, hence recieve the worst equipment and training which might influence how effective the armor chosen is, in adventure mode there are no restrictions and other world-entities like recent mercenaries from odd bits of equipment out of what finance they have.
A) This means that often quality of materials siegers wear is not on par with adventure mode hearthguards, account exempt entities etc. You'll virtually never see leaders and important people in armor but they do wear often masterwork clothing.
B) Cycles of production may simply not keep up with demand, however through limited supply there may be odd amounts if everyone rushes to grab it of a certain grade.
The significant difference between hardcoded recruit grunts (which you can prove by pruning them to specific races, which solves all animal recruits & restricts all experiments) is most easily seen when you instigate a war against other dwarf civs and they'll still opt to send soldiers in the bare minimum of copper and some silver, despite the high amount of protection steel offers.
Post by: voliol on August 01, 2020, 05:20:01 pm
Quote from: Mort StroodleI know dwarf appearance varies by civ, but does it also vary by sex? Could a particular civ have, say, shaved heads being in fashion for women while braided hair is all the rage for men?
There's nothing like that currently. I think it'll still vary e.g. eye color if only one of the castes has eyes, but I'm not even sure about that.
I should probably interject that moustaches and facial hair are a hard-coded masculine facial feature, its not very... free to utilize but its there.
"hard-coded" = one set of square brackets in the raws away from being not the case :P
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 01, 2020, 06:34:39 pm
I should probably interject that moustaches and facial hair are a hard-coded masculine facial feature, its not very... free to utilize but its there.
"hard-coded" = one set of square brackets in the raws away from being not the case :P
Yeah oops, i had to do a double take, i've been out of the modding scene for a little while and accrued rust. :o
Post by: Uthimienure on August 01, 2020, 07:48:15 pm
Post by: clinodev on August 01, 2020, 08:32:48 pm
Regarding different dimensions, does any of your inspiration come from Michael Moorcock's books, particularly The Knight, Queen, & King of the Swords trilogy and the Chronicles of Corum? He uses the term "planes" rather than "dimensions", and many (if not most) of his other works use his concept of the multiverse of planes. His books have been favorites for me since the 80's. Yes, I deliberately didn't mention the Elric series because everyone must have read some of those.
I'm curious as well, but it's worth noting he's mentioned the influence of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons before (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27983.15), and the original Deities and Demigods book not only drew heavily conceptually from Moorcock's work, but included (authorized, probably, (https://www.multiverse.org/forum/q-a/q-a-%E2%97%A6-questions-for-mike-news/the-q-a-archives/elric-of-melnibon%C3%A9-archive/1994-elric-elric-elric)) material directly referencing Michael Moorcock’s Elric of Melnibone, and HP Lovecraft’s Cthulhu Mythos, so it could be second hand influence. They are fantastic books, of course. Highly recommended. I'm sure there are fantasy series with "multiverses" that don't follow Moorcock's schema, but it's certainly been the standard for nearly half a century, and nearly as influential as Tolkien, for half the credit.
Source: Had the first print book as a child, and also https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/04/dd-retro-that-time-elric-of-melnibone-was-in-a-dd-book.html
Post by: Buttery_Mess on August 01, 2020, 11:38:03 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 01, 2020, 11:42:31 pm
Would it be possible to include "infinite" procedurally generated planes? DF currently generates maps of a fixed size. Because DF procedurally generates history, it has to be confined to a finite area. But could DF grant players access to planes where no history occurs, just infinite pseudo-random wilderneness? Or what about an infinite plane where civilisation is just confined to the "middle"?From Toady (about six posts above this one...)
Quote
For the infinite planes etc., we'd have to be much more careful, but it'd still be possible to have crucial places (travel/plane hubs, divine seats, capitals, etc.) have complete rich parallel histories, lessened only by the way that extraplanar things that touch them seem to disappear more or have less of a defined-yet-sprawling character (compared to worldgen farmland/etc.) We should be able to get a long way like this though, in some senses as far as a lot of the works set in such multiverses which also focus almost entirely on the important bits.
In other mushier infinite setups, there might be nothing historical at all away from the core play zone, if there is even one of those.
Post by: Spriggans on August 03, 2020, 02:11:53 am
1. At this point, will we still be able to mod in new items/workshops by simply editing the raws ?
2. Will this require a sprite/texture for the modded items/buildings or could we just give it an ASCII tile like today ?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 03, 2020, 03:07:44 am
Eventually, every items/buildings in the game will be textured, and not ASCII-ed.No, DF will allow for different tile sets, one of which is character based (the only one in Classic, the alternative one in Premium), however, I assume the separation of raws from tile sets means each "thing" will have to have some kind of identifier in the raws that has to be matched in the tile set(s) the mod supports. I assume you can specify a pre existing tile depicting one of the ASCII characters, one of the pre existing CP437 non ASCII characters, or a new one you come up with based on a character not present in CP437.
1. At this point, will we still be able to mod in new items/workshops by simply editing the raws ?
2. Will this require a sprite/texture for the modded items/buildings or could we just give it an ASCII tile like today ?
Thus, I assume it will use some default "tile missing" tile if the tile set used doesn't have a tile defined (and probably some error message), but the separation of text from tiles means all tile sets are just tiles to be loaded, with the image on those tiles being completely irrelevant to the code. However, I would expect Toady to try to make it easy to make tile set mods, in particular making it easy to reuse existing tile (e.g. the "S" tile for your modded in Spriggan creature, for instance).
Post by: ArrowheadArcher on August 03, 2020, 12:31:47 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 03, 2020, 12:47:09 pm
Can personality be tied to political beliefs? In the next version, will there be political beliefs and non-theism/anti-theism that will also develop much like personality?
I don't believe interests in devloping it like that way were discussed, but leaders already hold a significant amount of sway on how civs operate, for instance if a rival with a strong interest in religion and a few other mechanical gears like the villian intrigue encounter a rival sphere church they can use their influence to inter-site harrass its followers; to even start a holy war of the fire-worshipping nation upon the water worshipping one as they conflict.
Its much the way, a local family can maybe plot against a source of conflict such as a artifact claim, a count can get a number of actors and networks, while a king can mobilize the kingdom towards his goals, and often many villians are interested in climbing the ladder. Power obsessed and villiany-minded goblins overtaking leadership of human settlements and warping their behaviour with their views is not uncommon.
Spoiler: "spoilery stuff related to HFS" (click to show/hide)
Also limegreen if a question please.
Post by: voliol on August 03, 2020, 12:50:01 pm
Can personality be tied to political beliefs? In the next version, will there be political beliefs and non-theism/anti-theism that will also develop much like personality?
Use lime green text when asking Toady questions, otherwise he won't see them. I've heard no indication of a politics rework coming soon, so no, not in the next version, neither if you mean "the Premium release" nor if you mean "the post-Premium pre-Big Wait release".
Post by: ArrowheadArcher on August 03, 2020, 05:22:24 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 04, 2020, 01:05:56 am
Will the position tokens, currently unused in dwarf civs and only found on human gen civs, be expanded upon in later versions? Some suggestions might be an advisor (ADVISE_LEADERS) for leaders higher than expedition leader, a raid leader (ATTACK_ENEMIES) noble, a dedicated master architect (CONSTRUCTION_PERMITS) noble, and a return of the arsenal dwarf (EQUIPMENT_MANIFESTS and UPGRADE_SQUAD_EQUIPMENT, this might be rolled into militia commander instead).Suggestions belong in the suggestions sub forum http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 04, 2020, 07:31:09 am
snipSuggestions belong in the suggestions sub forum http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Yeah ditto suggestions into suggestion forum pretty please @ArrowheadArcher. But its strange i was just thinking about the arsenal dwarf, in regards to past replies on equipment mismanagement by wg entities, the code isn't technically defunct either (still a valid position responsibility, effect it has is neglible in fort mode from testing unless it does stuff in w.g) but its still one of those longstanding obsolete things.
There's never a 100% gurantee some of this side-stuff like the recently added 'advisor' roles will get more fleshing out or delayed villian stuff unfurled to its full length, but the steam release is making good progress as is from what it appears.
Post by: Thisaccountis42 on August 04, 2020, 04:34:25 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 04, 2020, 05:00:29 pm
Could future updates see specific dishes or cuisines associated with certain civs and/or sites?Yes, this is planned and in the devnotes. It was almost part of the taverns update but was cut for time, likely not to be attempted again until the economy is done to make it worthwhile.
Post by: therahedwig on August 05, 2020, 05:27:23 am
Especially given worldgen does have gambling and there's the divination dice already.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 05, 2020, 06:34:26 am
I actually went back and looked, and I don't see any mention of economy regarding tavern games and recipes. Rather that these things require generators, and that there's no official place in the roadmap where they'd go. So for all we know it might be M&M release 2.3 ;) (which isn't too weird an idea either, most of the mentioned myth gen magic systems seem to use materials, so I am assuming we'll see magic potions before too long)They were part of the taverns update:
Especially given worldgen does have gambling and there's the divination dice already.
Quote
Set prices/activitiesThe generators weren't made and they've now been put off. Most likely (fotf answer somewhere) until the economy makes them more worthwhile.
Recipes/drink quality
Games
Dwarves can gamble with outsiders
Ability to play games directly if a dwarf is involved
--edit
Fotf quote:
(Mostly other people start talking about the economy in fotf answers, but closest from Toady was this, which mainly covers games/gambling. Unless there was something later).
Quote
So, yeah, we had planned to break the tavern stuff up and get two reasonably short releases in. Then we did the normal thing and this release ended up not quite as short, and then we started feeling a little uncomfortable continuing on in the same vein for too long. And getting a bit over-excited about the myth stuff as we played around with the generator side project. Coupled with the gambling vs economy+justice problem, we are leaning toward the artifact release now after this. I still really like the random games and recipe ideas though. They may find side generators of their own lighting a fire under them before long.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 05, 2020, 07:17:57 am
1. Criminal behaviour such as embezzling suggests w.g civ/off-site dwarves end up earning a wage, same as devlog comments on wealthy patrons buying buildings. Are there any other implicit w.g things that dwarves spend their money on?
2. Is there any particular ordering of precedence to w.g payment for civ/non-fort-site positions or is it handled in some hardcoded way?
3. If poverty is a issue for a large majority of roles regarding the site-level army in supplimenting its equipment, do you think that it would impact responsibilities like [RESPONSIBILITY:UPGRADE_SQUAD_EQUIPMENT] (from the arsenal-dwarf, still a valid token to use but doesn't really do anything) capability to function without first procuring more money not spent elsewhere into funding better equipment?
I mainly say this because im in the middle of writing a suggestion thread as i speak; about the economics of how compared to mercenaries and rich folk operate in the mini-economy and some suggestions on how to budget armies a little bit more so that sieges can differ in quality between different civs at different levels of wealth. It'd be nice to have some informative quotes by the next time the FotF rolls around.
Its novel to think that humans while being the most merchantile grop with the highest respect for commerce, propensity to build merchant companies, (and some guilds to refine goods) are often fielding the worst armies quality wise in mass deployment of copper equipment, because the person in charge of the squads is a low paid and ranking member of their society with enormous gambling debts.
Post by: Uthimienure on August 05, 2020, 11:05:37 am
Example: "L" screen, then set an F-key to follow an artifact, then using that F-key centers the screen on the artifact, so far, so good. After this is when it can get frustrating because the cursor isn't located on the artifact, and if the map edge is nearby it can take a lot of searching to find using "t". Sometimes I've even given up!
EDIT: Nevermind, simply zoom in closely and then it's much easier. Duh!
Post by: ror6ax on August 07, 2020, 04:50:33 am
Will adventure mode get graphical paper-doll equipment screen?
Will there be daytime/nighttime change in DF? At least purely cosmetically it would be nice IMO.
Can we have animation for wind swaying the trees lightly? Pretty please :)
Will there be animations for moving objects, destroying objects, dorf attacks, fire, waterfalls etc?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 07, 2020, 04:55:16 am
Day and night (in Fortress Mode), No. Answered last month (or the month before). Would just be annoying flashing through day and night cycles every couple of seconds unless the timescale (and therefore the entire gameplay of Fortress mode) changed drastically.
Will adventure mode get graphical paper-doll equipment screen?
Will there be daytime/nighttime change in DF? At least purely cosmetically it would be nice IMO.
Can we have animation for wind swaying the trees lightly? Pretty please :)
Will there be animations for moving objects, destroying objects, dorf attacks, fire, waterfalls etc?
Adventurer of course, already has it.
Post by: Gadersd on August 07, 2020, 09:56:48 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 07, 2020, 11:14:12 am
Do you have any interest in adding evolutionary capabilities to the game? I think having physical features naturally adapt to each environment would add a lot of interesting variety to the game. Maybe even aspects of personality and mind can be tied to genetics in the game? Regarding the time scales, I have made a few simulations of my own and evolution can happen very fast in some circumstances. Wars and environment changes can spur rapid change in the gene distribution. This may be out of scope for what you have in mind for DF, but I think it could lead to interesting cases, such as magically inclined or magically resistant populations.
Genetics are in the game, but they aren't very well fleshed out. For instance it was definitely poked around that it might have been possible to either cheat or by complete internal game fluke, have a dwarf (from the mother's race) inherit the bright hair hues of a goblin parent, which lead to some speculation about dwarves with player desirable bright pink beards, but the most likely result is that it'd not work, crash to desktop or create some sort of freaky null child.
- Most inherient traits are racial on creature.txt, but express themselves differently in individuals, even the most altruistic goblin still might have a roaring temper simply by the way they were born, so i can't really say anything about mind traits in current context. Creatures also follow their ethical & moral code defined in civ's pretty dilligently too, a homogenized goblin in the dwarf civ with a big beard and head full of dwarf bunk of law, order etc, is still a bit of a psychotic short fuse.
Something emergent like elves suddenly isolated and under shaping of dark forces becoming orcs (which is a device of Tolkien) or even the radical transformation of necromancer-experiments is a example of forced evolution. The people affected by it just live with it, when the site government falls apart for whatever reason they're thrown out into the world free to follow their wishes, they aren't night creatures but its easy to draw a association, a bit like when you judge a goblin in a tavern is automatically a spy.
Post by: LordBaal on August 07, 2020, 11:54:03 am
Also, Toady, would you aprove of us trying to use necromancy in that case to bring you back? I mean, what could go wrong? .
Post by: Bumber on August 07, 2020, 12:55:07 pm
I have a question regarding the code. In the past the idea was to have the code delivered to the NY Museum of Arts in the case of Toady passing. First, I dont know if that actuallt meant the code would be made public or only parts of it as some display of sorts. Second, is that still the plan? Or now the code wont be released ever to anyone?
Also, Toady, would you aprove of us trying to use necromancy in that case to bring you back? I mean, what could go wrong? .
Last I heard, the plan was to release the source to everyone as long as Toady dies of natural causes.
Post by: Putnam on August 09, 2020, 03:37:02 pm
1. At this point, will we still be able to mod in new items/workshops by simply editing the raws ?
already can, this is not liable to change
Can personality be tied to political beliefs? In the next version, will there be political beliefs and non-theism/anti-theism that will also develop much like personality?
there already are political beliefs, in a gigantic block in the center of all personality screens, with more "deviant" political beliefs for their civilization highlighted in cyan
Post by: MrWiggles on August 09, 2020, 08:51:38 pm
To add to this. This was decided really early on by the community in part. There wont be a day/night cycle in Fort mode because players valued having some dorfs always active over period of time where there were no dorfs active.
Will there be daytime/nighttime change in DF? At least purely cosmetically it would be nice IMO.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 09, 2020, 09:23:03 pm
Well, if Toady really wanted it, this could be overcome. I imagine dwarves without a need for sunlight would adapt well to shift work. But, yeah, it's a massive change to the whole of Fortress Mode which most likely isn't worth it until the simulation demands perfect synchronisation between Adventurer and Fortress (and whatever other modes there are in that far, far away scenario).To add to this. This was decided really early on by the community in part. There wont be a day/night cycle in Fort mode because players valued having some dorfs always active over period of time where there were no dorfs active.
Will there be daytime/nighttime change in DF? At least purely cosmetically it would be nice IMO.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on August 10, 2020, 06:13:06 am
Post by: clinodev on August 10, 2020, 06:48:13 am
Will 24-bit colors for text display mentioned in the 08/08/2020 dev post also be in the classic game?
What we've been told is that the tileset, sound pack and music, Steam Workshop integration, and apparently some UI frame art, are Premium exclusive, but everything else including the code hooks and information required to add your own tileset, sound pack, and music with new features will be available to Classic users. Steam Workshop integration can't be shared (because of how Steam works,) which is why a Steam key comes with an itch.io purchase to ensure feature parity.
Not only does this provide most benefits to the community at large, but it keeps the code as close as possible between the versions, which keeps things simple for development. I suspect, in practice, he'll update classic and then add the Premium stuff to it for the Premium build.
Meph teased in the first Kitfox Discord AMA, (I believe, it might have been the reddit AMA the next day, it was a busy week for me,) that he'll have a free tileset available at launch.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 10, 2020, 06:51:00 am
Well, if Toady really wanted it, this could be overcome. I imagine dwarves without a need for sunlight would adapt well to shift work. But, yeah, it's a massive change to the whole of Fortress Mode which most likely isn't worth it until the simulation demands perfect synchronisation between Adventurer and Fortress (and whatever other modes there are in that far, far away scenario).
Also that if its too regular or irregular, creatures & sentient beings will probably end up sleeping or being active during particular periods because they already have rules on whether they rise during the day, dusk, morning, evening or night defined in tokens. Though everything else took into account too, like were-beasts having definite windows to be active, what time people should sleep, and the presence of things like bogeymen or creatures that dissapate in daylight.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 10, 2020, 07:20:53 am
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it'd be a fun game. It's just not the game people enjoy playing right now. So not something to approach lightly. Maybe the result of another Big Wait in the far future which changes so much that a Fortress Mode gameplay rewrite is a minor detail and has the assurance that we always have a "stable" version of the previous version to fall back on.Well, if Toady really wanted it, this could be overcome. I imagine dwarves without a need for sunlight would adapt well to shift work. But, yeah, it's a massive change to the whole of Fortress Mode which most likely isn't worth it until the simulation demands perfect synchronisation between Adventurer and Fortress (and whatever other modes there are in that far, far away scenario).
Also that if its too regular or irregular, creatures & sentient beings will probably end up sleeping or being active during particular periods because they already have rules on whether they rise during the day, dusk, morning, evening or night defined in tokens. Though everything else took into account too, like were-beasts having definite windows to be active, what time people should sleep, and the presence of things like bogeymen or creatures that dissapate in daylight.
Post by: Bumber on August 10, 2020, 12:32:33 pm
Will there be daytime/nighttime change in DF? At least purely cosmetically it would be nice IMO.
Even if it was just cosmetic, something would have to be done about lighting the underground. It wouldn't make sense to have it change with the surface, and perpetual nighttime underground isn't satisfying either.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 10, 2020, 12:42:13 pm
Yes, changing the time progression of Fortress to 1/72 of the current rate would result in something rather different. However, expanding Adventure Mode with options that allows you to manage a fortress might well be fun in its own way (and at the other end of the scale we have the Civ management level that could either be an optional extension to Fortress Mode, or its own mode where you don't control any site in detail).Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it'd be a fun game. It's just not the game people enjoy playing right now. So not something to approach lightly. Maybe the result of another Big Wait in the far future which changes so much that a Fortress Mode gameplay rewrite is a minor detail and has the assurance that we always have a "stable" version of the previous version to fall back on.Well, if Toady really wanted it, this could be overcome. I imagine dwarves without a need for sunlight would adapt well to shift work. But, yeah, it's a massive change to the whole of Fortress Mode which most likely isn't worth it until the simulation demands perfect synchronisation between Adventurer and Fortress (and whatever other modes there are in that far, far away scenario).
Also that if its too regular or irregular, creatures & sentient beings will probably end up sleeping or being active during particular periods because they already have rules on whether they rise during the day, dusk, morning, evening or night defined in tokens. Though everything else took into account too, like were-beasts having definite windows to be active, what time people should sleep, and the presence of things like bogeymen or creatures that dissapate in daylight.
The rate is a too slow to act as a stroboscope, but fast enough to be really annoying, so it it's introduced, I hope it can be disabled with an option (or, better, enabled by those who want it). Underground would presumably have its own perpetual twilight level from abstract light sources.Will there be daytime/nighttime change in DF? At least purely cosmetically it would be nice IMO.
Even if it was just cosmetic, something would have to be done about lighting the underground. It wouldn't make sense to have it change with the surface, and perpetual nighttime underground isn't satisfying either.
Post by: Bumber on August 10, 2020, 12:50:19 pm
The rate is a too slow to act as a stroboscope, but fast enough to be really annoying, so it it's introduced, I hope it can be disabled with an option (or, better, enabled by those who want it). Underground would presumably have its own perpetual twilight level from abstract light sources.
You could have nighttime last a week or so instead.
Don't tint the underground light, though. Need the silver to look silver.
Post by: Egan_BW on August 10, 2020, 12:50:49 pm
Post by: Bumber on August 10, 2020, 02:16:29 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 10, 2020, 04:03:16 pm
Is it true that long term memories can't be replaced by short term memories of equal strength? This Reddit thread seems to think it's the cause of major stress issues. (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/hjt112/i_think_ive_figured_out_the_stress_spiral_thoughts/)
If such a thing was rectified then least there will be a natural circular loop around losing things like spouses, pets, children, masterwork objects, (things that can be replaced given patience) and increase the urgency to rectify big heavy blows to dwarf egos like losing their artifacts or suffering significant irreperable body-trauma, outside `trickle trickle` stress problems or highly stressful enviroments, solved by simple sedentary retirement.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 11, 2020, 08:53:12 am
Considering that when you subjugate goblins after much back and forth raiding & bashing up they don't really keep their promises at all to send you their agreed continous tribute, will you expect a further implementation of sending actors to these sites to do intrigue can help reinforce them doing 'what you want them to do' implicitly the game guessing for you on circumstance, or will there be details?
Whether the animosity felt by goblins or their lack of ethic respect for oaths had anything to do with a wrapped up finished war with the tribute getting hot again, im not entirely sure. But im hopeful that it might least be remedial to the problems currently experienced where other civs pass you off with a wink, rush your baron early with population or just terminate their agreements flippantly (besides elves, those sticklers always expect you to do what they want with quotas *sigh*).
I think, i had a save where i had enough population for a duke within the Autumnal season of the first year, with the liason simply by measure of elves & goblins wildly economic settling near me with message spam, and when they were inaugerated all of the sites just turned their noses up and feigned that they didn't know us by not allowing us to expel there or request anybody.
Sounds like a geniune reason for dwarves to get riled up for sure, it might just be a undiagnosed broach of oath-making & breaking against the dwarven civilization i could put onto the Mantis Tracker.
Post by: Immortal-D on August 13, 2020, 05:33:16 pm
Edit: Do you have any new info regarding the Game Ending Stress thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174931.0)?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 13, 2020, 05:42:16 pm
Regarding the recent UI update posted for Steam; Can you yet say how much of an overhaul the Labors menu will receive? Will there be functional changes beyond graphics & mouse scrolling? i.e. the abilities of Dwarf Therapist utility to mass-apply labors and create custom 'professions' (a saved grouping of labors).In a couple of recent interviews (and one of the Dftalks maybe) he said he would prefer something closer to auto-labor to help with labor settings. But that providing options for people who prefer spreadsheet micromanagement is important too). Seemed like this was all part of the updates for Steam.
Edit: Do you have any new info regarding the Game Ending Stress thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174931.0)?
Guess we might know more by the end of the month though.
(Hope spreadsheet micromanagement hell never becomes the standard interface personally...)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 14, 2020, 01:36:48 am
But I think I'll go with...
The top tab on the embark screen says "Dwarves". Is that a procedurally generated word that changes automatically in modded games? Or if not, can it be changed by modders?
(I understand the colors and things are likely moddable, but a lot of text in the current version is hard-coded, would be nice not to have more of it).
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 14, 2020, 07:32:41 am
So much to say about the new UI!If the name doesn't reflect what's in the entity raw then it would likely be an oversight, but I guess it doesn't hurt much to use some forum space for a reminder (especially since prototypes cobbled together have a tendency not to be replaced with "proper" implementations in the SW industry).
But I think I'll go with...
The top tab on the embark screen says "Dwarves". Is that a procedurally generated word that changes automatically in modded games? Or if not, can it be changed by modders?
(I understand the colors and things are likely moddable, but a lot of text in the current version is hard-coded, would be nice not to have more of it).
Post by: Yakefa on August 17, 2020, 10:03:27 am
I'm not a modder myself but I'm curious about modding possibilities. Anyone knows if the Toady is planning to make more of the hardcoded data accessible to modders for the steam version?
Basically giving full control to modders :)
Post by: voliol on August 17, 2020, 10:48:44 am
Hello,
I'm not a modder myself but I'm curious about modding possibilities. Anyone knows if the Toady is planning to make more of the hardcoded data accessible to modders for the steam version?
Basically giving full control to modders :)
Use lime green text for questions to Toady. I marked it for you here in case you miss this message.
Post by: LordBaal on August 17, 2020, 11:08:03 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 17, 2020, 11:49:11 am
The tile set/text separation will result in raw changes that allow tile sets to be selected independently of saves, so that's some raw changes that support modders, but it's more of a side effect.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 17, 2020, 12:04:43 pm
Hello,
I'm not a modder myself but I'm curious about modding possibilities. Anyone knows if the Toady is planning to make more of the hardcoded data accessible to modders for the steam version?
Basically giving full control to modders :)
Quite a significant number of the boolean flags for this and that end up being mapped out and twiddled with via the DFhack github project and this is the foundational basis for a lot of DFhack scripts and community bit-patches that have emerged over the years, its really as close as anybody would get to anything that is not the RAWS without being either of the Adams brothers themselves.
Post by: LordBaal on August 17, 2020, 01:24:22 pm
As LordBaal said, the long term goal is to make as much as possible available through raws. As also mentioned, there's been no indication that the Premium release will make a push at that effort (and I don't think it should: there are so many more urgent things that are actually in the Premium release's scope that will have to be cut due to time constraints).Im wondering, we will be able ti turn things like stairs and ramps directions.
The tile set/text separation will result in raw changes that allow tile sets to be selected independently of saves, so that's some raw changes that support modders, but it's more of a side effect.
I mean the graphics. Currently the ramps and stairs are represented by a single title each, so i.e. in graphic packages you have to decide if up stairs and down stairs go to the left or the rigth. The ramps currently are represented in the vertical direcction.
Its only a cosmetic and useless issue.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 18, 2020, 12:38:46 am
Im wondering, we will be able ti turn things like stairs and ramps directions.I fail to understand the question, so Toady might struggle as well. Is it a suggestion to add the ability to modify stairs from one version to another as direct commands rather than using the current alternatives? The subject of changing ramp directions does not make sense to me, since ramps always are on the lower level going up, with the indication on the level above just being an indication that there's a ramp below (rather than just showing the open space that's actually there), and ramps are magical in that they automatically morph to allow you to climb up in any direction in which the ramp is supported by a wall (although you still have to supply a flat space on the level above to step to for the ramp to work).
Post by: LordBaal on August 18, 2020, 10:13:24 am
Its only a cosmetic and useless issue.
Post by: voliol on August 18, 2020, 10:36:28 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 19, 2020, 04:37:01 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on August 19, 2020, 04:49:19 pm
I bet all the other stuff like megabeasts and Sasquatches and blizzard men end up disappearing at the lowest settings too.
Maybe things will receive a raw tag with min/max values they show up in, like [FANTASY_SCALE:25:75], on a worldgen scale from 0 to 100, where 50 is default and like DF is now. That would let us control where our modded additions show up too.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 19, 2020, 05:03:52 pm
The stuff you were talking about in the second-to-last DF talk about imaginary magic systems in mundane worlds got me thinking: will humans in such settings sometimes still believe that the vanilla DF fantasy races like dwarves, elves, goblins, and the like exist in their particular world? It's not like various human cultures haven't believed in these creatures in the past, so it would make sense.Would be the same as the way dwarves believe in griffons, centaurs and chimeras now
Post by: Yakefa on August 20, 2020, 06:32:12 pm
Quite a significant number of the boolean flags for this and that end up being mapped out and twiddled with via the DFhack github project and this is the foundational basis for a lot of DFhack scripts and community bit-patches that have emerged over the years, its really as close as anybody would get to anything that is not the RAWS without being either of the Adams brothers themselves.
Are you saying that almost anything could be modded through DFHack?
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 20, 2020, 08:00:30 pm
Quite a significant number of the boolean flags for this and that end up being mapped out and twiddled with via the DFhack github project and this is the foundational basis for a lot of DFhack scripts and community bit-patches that have emerged over the years, its really as close as anybody would get to anything that is not the RAWS without being either of the Adams brothers themselves.
Are you saying that almost anything could be modded through DFHack?
With a bit of help from rumrusher going over renewing some old scripts to make them worthy to use in 47.04, i do have a little bit of mounted rider functionality when i can corral dwarves and animals in the right places that im still fine tuning how best to approach with the janky method of rider being glued onto mount in fortress mode. I've yet to make a settled fortress on it, so in basic yeah, so long as there's enough code structures left over to properly manipulate you can puppeteer virtually anything you want.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 21, 2020, 04:28:03 pm
The reason for the question is the realization that things are reworked significantly, so the current UI can't be retained as is, and it seems to be a duplication of effort to make two different versions of the UI, in particular if a character set oriented version would try to emulate widgets using characters (or something looking like characters).
Edit: To clarify, I'm thinking of things like sliders, that do not naturally translate into tiles, rather than cases where the character tile set can easily be used instead of image/icon tiles.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 21, 2020, 05:44:23 pm
What's the current approach regarding the UI for the Classic/character tile set Premium version of DF?For reference this was the situation a month ago:
The reason for the question is the realization that things are reworked significantly, so the current UI can't be retained as is, and it seems to be a duplication of effort to make two different versions of the UI, in particular if a character set oriented version would try to emulate widgets using characters (or something looking like characters).
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are the icons sliders and other graphical parts of the interface that you're adding locked to the official tileset? I'm just wondering how the new interface will work for anyone who doesn't buy the Steam version. Or indeed in Steam's curses tileset, is that Curses plus graphical icons? Different icons to match the ASCII style? Presumably all the new rectangle drawing tools and such will be fully functional?
Quote from: DG
Are all new UI elements and any changes to current ones supporting keyboard only input?
Toadyone:
They are locked, insofar as everything else is - it's set up currently as the creature graphics have been, where you link up images with text files and so forth, and the fancy image sets aren't going to be in DF Classic (which is likely what the Steam curses version will be, same as the free one.) That does leave us the question of what DF Classic is, when we've been aiming for "no graphics but as many of the interface improvements as possible." We'll very soon reach a point where the changes will require some sort of substitute. Whether those are literal text buttons (with line outlines and ASCII symbols inside), or something else, is yet to be seen. The way the interface currently works where it still respects the old grid somewhat (rather than the new graphical layer, which doesn't respect the old grid, other than being a grid at all) makes it much easier to handle ASCII parallel work on an ongoing basis.
Yeah, the continuing plan, which seems feasible thus far, is to maintain keyboard alternatives everywhere. There are some questions here and there about how some nested widget might work, if various little tick boxes end up being convenient, and so forth, but having quick key/sequence methods is important.
Post by: Putnam on August 21, 2020, 07:28:23 pm
Quite a significant number of the boolean flags for this and that end up being mapped out and twiddled with via the DFhack github project and this is the foundational basis for a lot of DFhack scripts and community bit-patches that have emerged over the years, its really as close as anybody would get to anything that is not the RAWS without being either of the Adams brothers themselves.
Are you saying that almost anything could be modded through DFHack?
Yes.
Post by: ArrowheadArcher on August 21, 2020, 11:02:12 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 22, 2020, 01:49:38 am
I've updated my question post in an attempt to clarify the question.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 22, 2020, 01:56:15 am
Will there be an expansion on medical simulation in Fortress Mode? Will there also be disease simulation, dentistry, and hygiene (haircare and skincare) in the game at some point?
Id check the list through the development goals page (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), seperate to the development log which talks about nearer term progress.
If you have any particular suggestions to talk about in detail, you can share them in the suggestions subforum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0), because often reaching out on a topic that isn't particularly related to upcoming arcs without a suitable reason tends to yield polite`I dont know, havent thought about it` type responses from Toady or refer directly to community responses as a reply.
Post by: Schmaven on August 22, 2020, 07:39:24 am
Personally, I think the scroll bars are totally fine.
Post by: therahedwig on August 22, 2020, 09:24:08 am
I have to admit I am pleasantly surprised to hear we're apparantly getting something a little simcity like for the main fort mode UI. I wasn't sure if the game could handle that at all :D
Do you think the 'text' terminal rendering mode for DF will survive all these upgrades? I know we're keeping an old-style ascii graphics pack, but all the changes made to different grid sizes sound like terminal-text wouldn't be compatible anymore.
Post by: clinodev on August 22, 2020, 05:35:44 pm
What's the current approach regarding the UI for the Classic/character tile set Premium version of DF?
The reason for the question is the realization that things are reworked significantly, so the current UI can't be retained as is, and it seems to be a duplication of effort to make two different versions of the UI, in particular if a character set oriented version would try to emulate widgets using characters (or something looking like characters).
Edit: To clarify, I'm thinking of things like sliders, that do not naturally translate into tiles, rather than cases where the character tile set can easily be used instead of image/icon tiles.
I really hope this gets a thoughtful and thorough answer.
I don't have any real preferences about sliders verses whatever, but I think it's very important the default "ascii" and Premium controls look enough the same that any new player can view a tutorial using either, for instance, and immediately understand one is just a fancier or prettier version of the other.
In my opinion, (not to project too much on PatrikLundell's question,) it would be best to keep the control surfaces exactly the same between Premium Tiles/Premium "ascii"/Classic "ascii." Even from the development side, it would seem better to plan so that making a change or fixing a bug in a control panel doesn't require commissioning two or more sets of art.
It's on a short list of things that I genuinely worry could "split the community," (and I spend a lot of time reassuring people that Premium isn't going to split the community,) along with retaining traditional "muscle memory" key commands, which seems like it should be possible with the
Post by: squamous on August 22, 2020, 11:06:18 pm
1. What exactly is required for a bandit/mercenary fort to spawn in the world. I am currently working on a project in which the only civ type is the fortress site-type and the only biomes are tundra and mountains. The civ has BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS, but the forts themselves do not appear. Are there other requirements I don't know about? [answered I guess]
2. When the eventual military update rolls around, will there be more diversity in unit types? By which I mean more combinations of armor (ranged units in heavy plate armor for example) or the use of sidearms/multiple weapons, like a pikeman or bowman who carries a shortsword and uses it when the enemy comes close, or a berserker-type of fighter who uses two one-handed weapons.
3. Is there any way to prevent forgotten beasts from spawning without setting cavern layers to 0?
Post by: Atomic Chicken on August 23, 2020, 08:22:03 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 23, 2020, 11:09:58 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 23, 2020, 06:36:02 pm
1. What exactly is required for a bandit/mercenary fort to spawn in the world. I am currently working on a project in which the only civ type is the fortress site-type and the only biomes are tundra and mountains. The civ has BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS, but the forts themselves do not appear. Are there other requirements I don't know about?
I think i've answered this seperately for you outside of the forums on discord, but if there are bandits present with bandity (percentage of entity) and/or religious foundations (of which i think need to be organized religions, but im not sure) they'll occupy them, and simply clearing banditry from entity.txt (because bandit forts create endless loops of sieging, losing, then continuing wars (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11265)), only mercenaries occupy them from that point on of which seem to be mostly human denominations unless they're conquered at a later date (confirming its a problem with bandits, not the site type under siege).
Re-reading some wiki articles, I would say that counting houses established to buy properties may also determine the actual accessibility to founding the site by a group or persons amassing enough wealth to build it but you'd have to see the group association in the site's history to do any cross analysis of that. Necromancers tend to buy bandit forts simply because they live long and scheme enough to use counting houses with frequency, but they're no stranger to bandit societies anyway.
There's even a report of a necromancers property purchasing a castle no doubt under a guise. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177115.0)
2. When the eventual military update rolls around, will there be more diversity in unit types? By which I mean more combinations of armor (ranged units in heavy plate armor for example) or the use of sidearms/multiple weapons, like a pikeman or bowman who carries a shortsword and uses it when the enemy comes close, or a berserker-type of fighter who uses two one-handed weapons.
Weapon-users are already varied as to whatever preferred weapon that they've trained in and the civ has accessibility in their skill to use, to fufill what you're asking would need a some re-tooling of the military screen and how dwarves equip and order their accessories (given in fortress mode if both weapons are light enough from training you can clumsily carry both a crossbow & a hammer at the same time).
Its worth mentioning also your distinctive warrior types would mean a radical change to [POSITION:CAPTAIN] if not done on a entity token level which currently solely selects non historical individuals for civs to throw at each other and you the player for army-controllers; if you throw down some relevant suggestions in the subforum, Toady might take notice.
- But i would be hopeful for more in the way of soldiers of higher standing rank like generals and rulers themselves arriving like they used to as a more significant threat and better grades of equipment, since especially necromancers or (now enabled villian) mummies will never personally arrive anymore. Something has bottlenecked [POSITION:CAPTAIN] to work as a sole hardcoded position tag, and no other military goals or strategy historical people will be in attendance for real-time fortress mode sieges.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 23, 2020, 06:46:57 pm
Since the positions are hardcoded at present, for the upcoming (past steam release in mind) Military Arc, would you be releasing any of the structures related to the military positions (like elf rangers, human warriors, generic captains etc) to the modding community or would you be expecting to flush them out and put in a new system/set of positions in typical DF style?
It's kind of frustrating that these old positions with [ATTACK_ENEMIES] and [PATROL_TERRITORY] do not have any perjunctive use at all but carry everything related to sieges in their mysterious ways, but i hope im not overstepping too much asking about it; after the modding community got a significant boost in 47. with forgotten beasts and our special friends the clowns's special tokens being brought to the forefront was greatly appreciated.
Post by: neutrino431 on August 27, 2020, 12:59:21 pm
Post by: voliol on August 27, 2020, 01:07:28 pm
This has probably already been asked, but will we be able to transfer saves from the current version to Steam and vice versa?Lime Green text for Toady ;)
Post by: clinodev on August 27, 2020, 05:24:18 pm
This has probably already been asked, but will we be able to transfer saves from the current version to Steam and vice versa?
The convention here is to mark questions to Toady in lime green. I'll do it for you here:
This has probably already been asked, but will we be able to transfer saves from the current version to Steam and vice versa?
I believe the last answer to this was that he didn't know. He's done an amazing job keeping compatibility in the past, but he's talking about some substantial changes in how tilesets are stored, for instance, so I won't be surprised either way.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 28, 2020, 01:23:51 am
This has probably already been asked, but will we be able to transfer saves from the current version to Steam and vice versa?Building on clinodev's answer:
Forwards compatibility is up in the air, as clinodev said. DF does not support transfer from a newer version to an older one.
However, if your question is whether the Premium version will be compatible with the Classic version of the same release, the answer is yes. That's an explicit goal, allowing e.g. generation fortresses to be shared between users using a mixture of Premium and Classic, as well as allowing forumites examining bugged saves to do so regardless of which variant the save was generated with.
Post by: Rose on August 28, 2020, 02:17:49 am
Post by: Su on August 28, 2020, 03:34:04 pm
Toady has said that the only difference between the Steam EXE and the classic EXE will be steam integration, nothing else.the current devpost (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/#2020-08-28) would appear to indicate this is no longer strictly the case.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 28, 2020, 03:50:47 pm
You mean the guts? That's just a difference between using a graphics set and using an ascii-like set. Both of which are options in the Steam version. Both of which will be options in Classic (once modders have made their own sets).Toady has said that the only difference between the Steam EXE and the classic EXE will be steam integration, nothing else.the current devpost (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/#2020-08-28) would appear to indicate this is no longer strictly the case.
Post by: Beag on August 29, 2020, 10:29:54 am
2. Will the fast travel screen in adventure mode also have a graphical mini map version?
Post by: Egan_BW on August 29, 2020, 10:45:38 am
Post by: Uthimienure on August 29, 2020, 11:34:50 am
Post by: Bumber on August 29, 2020, 03:37:13 pm
IIRC, you can currently smash trailing guts with a drawbridge. Would they disappear in tileset mode if you smashed them in ASCII mode?
Post by: Beag on August 29, 2020, 06:48:29 pm
Post by: ror6ax on August 30, 2020, 05:12:14 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 30, 2020, 07:44:11 am
How many more things need to be done before dwarf fortress can be released on steam?A lot more than there's time for. As far as I understand, there's a contractual obligation to release it before a deadline (approaching fast, at a rate of one day per day), with Toady having made the unusual move of mentioning a release before the end of the year, and a huge table filled with stuff that ought to be done. The result will be the usual for DF (and SW in general): as the time runs out things will have to be cut at an accelerating pace.
Things to do:
- Tile sets and support for it (multiple grids, etc.). The initial phase is done, but the artists will have their hands full, and I'd expect Toady to have to make adjustments as issues are encountered (and display of clothing hasn't been shown, so it may or may not be in progress).
- UI revamp (current main focus).
- UI issues to make things more logical, with ties to the top layer of underlying functionality (key remapping, mouse support, plus underlying stuff where stockpiles and the army screen has been mentioned, but there is a large queue of candidates behind these two).
- Newbie friendliness efforts.
- Tutorial
- Bug fixes (crash bugs, such as the elusive equipment corruption that keeps popping up every time it's been addressed, and less serious but equally newbie killing ones).
- Stress and needs balancing.
- Closed beta play testing.
- Vendor platform integration (not sure if Steam is the only one, or if Itch.io has some things as well).
- Other things that need to go in as well...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 30, 2020, 04:27:51 pm
Post by: Oreos on August 31, 2020, 12:52:55 am
1.Could it be possible to "Destroy" an entire Plane?
2.Will Gods have a chance being able to physically enter and interact/alter a plane, as a Living God/Avatar. Or Potentially Create a Entirely New Plane?
3. Is there a Chance of a Plane where Gods Reside? such as Mt. Olympus in Greek Mythology. Where Gods will Exist as Physical Beings and interact with each other? Potentially effecting the Mortal Plane?
4.If So Will Gods have a chance being able to physically enter and interact/alter a plane, as a Living God/Avatar. Or Potentially Create a Entirely New Plane?
5.will it be possible for a Mortal Creature to Ascend to Divinity?
Post by: voliol on August 31, 2020, 01:15:14 am
Hey Toady I've seen some mentions of alternative "Planes/Universes" in the questions and I had a couple questions about them too, along with Gods, Divinity, and Magic.
1.Could it be possible to "Destroy" an entire Plane?
2.Will Gods have a chance being able to physically enter and interact/alter a plane, as a Living God/Avatar. Or Potentially Create a Entirely New Plane?
3. Is there a Chance of a Plane where Gods Reside? such as Mt. Olympus in Greek Mythology. Where Gods will Exist as Physical Beings and interact with each other? Potentially effecting the Mortal Plane?
4.If So Will Gods have a chance being able to physically enter and interact/alter a plane, as a Living God/Avatar. Or Potentially Create a Entirely New Plane?
5.will it be possible for a Mortal Creature to Ascend to Divinity?
Considering how troperiffic all of these are, I have a hard time imagining they won’t get implemented sooner or later. Actually, 5 is basically confirmed through a Threetoe Story (ctrl-f for ”monk”) (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_tales_foretold.html), and I’m sure there are mentions of the other ones floating around. ”Sooner or later” is the phrasing though, as they ought to be far off enough that the timeframes get really foggy.
(2 and 4 are copies of each other, by the way)
Post by: MrWiggles on August 31, 2020, 04:31:32 am
Hey Toady I've seen some mentions of alternative "Planes/Universes" in the questions and I had a couple questions about them too, along with Gods, Divinity, and Magic.Since the magic arc isnt the current focus. The answer to these question, is 'That sounds cool. Maybe, we'll see. I dont know yet.'
1.Could it be possible to "Destroy" an entire Plane?
2.Will Gods have a chance being able to physically enter and interact/alter a plane, as a Living God/Avatar. Or Potentially Create a Entirely New Plane?
3. Is there a Chance of a Plane where Gods Reside? such as Mt. Olympus in Greek Mythology. Where Gods will Exist as Physical Beings and interact with each other? Potentially effecting the Mortal Plane?
4.If So Will Gods have a chance being able to physically enter and interact/alter a plane, as a Living God/Avatar. Or Potentially Create a Entirely New Plane?
5.will it be possible for a Mortal Creature to Ascend to Divinity?
Post by: Toady One on September 01, 2020, 05:04:05 pm
Quote from: Uthimienure
Regarding different dimensions, does any of your inspiration come from Michael Moorcock's books, particularly The Knight, Queen, & King of the Swords trilogy and the Chronicles of Corum? He uses the term "planes" rather than "dimensions", and many (if not most) of his other works use his concept of the multiverse of planes. His books have been favorites for me since the 80's. Yes, I deliberately didn't mention the Elric series because everyone must have read some of those.
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8173504#msg8173504
I haven't read any of those (not Elric either), but as clinodev says, ideas are laundered through the things we do have experience with, so whatever plausible inspiration can be traced is fair for sure.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Would it be possible to include "infinite" procedurally generated planes? DF currently generates maps of a fixed size. Because DF procedurally generates history, it has to be confined to a finite area. But could DF grant players access to planes where no history occurs, just infinite pseudo-random wilderneness? Or what about an infinite plane where civilisation is just confined to the "middle"?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8173536#msg8173536
Yeah, Shonai_Dweller's quote about covers it. Certainly possible, though as you indicate, there does need to be some kind of reasonable restriction on what sort of civilization/history such places have.
Quote from: Spriggans
Eventually, every items/buildings in the game will be textured, and not ASCII-ed.
1. At this point, will we still be able to mod in new items/workshops by simply editing the raws ?
2. Will this require a sprite/texture for the modded items/buildings or could we just give it an ASCII tile like today ?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8173924#msg8173924
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176554#msg8176554
The comments about describe it. You can still add stuff as usual, but of course if you have graphics on you also need to assign them a picture if you want them to have a picture, either using an existing one or one you draw. Currently, in the particular case where you are trying to make, say, a mod adding a workshop for the graphical version, it will just have a bunch of cyan boxes for the graphics if you don't assign any - it doesn't try to display ASCII in place of the graphics (due to the tile sizes etc.) Remains to be seen whether we do anything additional with that, in terms of default graphics, such as a "default 3x3 workshop" that it uses as a placeholder.
Quote from: ArrowheadArcher
Can personality be tied to political beliefs? In the next version, will there be political beliefs and non-theism/anti-theism that will also develop much like personality?
Will the position tokens, currently unused in dwarf civs and only found on human gen civs, be expanded upon in later versions? Some suggestions might be an advisor (ADVISE_LEADERS) for leaders higher than expedition leader, a raid leader (ATTACK_ENEMIES) noble, a dedicated master architect (CONSTRUCTION_PERMITS) noble, and a return of the arsenal dwarf (EQUIPMENT_MANIFESTS and UPGRADE_SQUAD_EQUIPMENT, this might be rolled into militia commander instead).
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8174089#msg8174089
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8174091#msg8174091
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8174272#msg8174272
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8174356#msg8174356
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176554#msg8176554
As noted, there are already "values" and "ethics", such as they are in the game, which would count as political beliefs in some sense - there are also the various affiliations. There aren't specific philosophies, exactly, so certain types of politics aren't nailed down. Dunno how much we'll get to on the next likely pass, which is the restructuring of civ definitions for the embark scenario push (after magic.) Personality and politics are separated now - it gives some lip service to this in the personality paragraph (conflicted by the differences, etc.), and I suppose it would make sense to have some alignment of personality/values there more often than not (in terms of what people 'gravitate' to, or whatever), though I wouldn't want to make it too strict.
Yeah, those tokens were thrown in quickly to get some intermediate nobles, in order to stop some of the villainous stuff from being ridiculous, though we didn't get too far into access restrictions before we had to change gears. They'll presumably find more use when we get to the relevant portions of the game, though as you noted, some of them may already make sense in fort mode, and I'm not sure when we'll take our next look at extended the bureaucracy there (it'll certainly come up with the embark scenario stuff, just not sure if it'll happen at all before.)
Quote from: Thisaccountis42
Could future updates see specific dishes or cuisines associated with certain civs and/or sites?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8174527#msg8174527
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8174671#msg8174671
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8174673#msg8174673
Yeah, this was planned and delayed as the comments say.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
1. Criminal behaviour such as embezzling suggests w.g civ/off-site dwarves end up earning a wage, same as devlog comments on wealthy patrons buying buildings. Are there any other implicit w.g things that dwarves spend their money on?
2. Is there any particular ordering of precedence to w.g payment for civ/non-fort-site positions or is it handled in some hardcoded way?
3. If poverty is a issue for a large majority of roles regarding the site-level army in supplimenting its equipment, do you think that it would impact responsibilities like [RESPONSIBILITY:UPGRADE_SQUAD_EQUIPMENT] (from the arsenal-dwarf, still a valid token to use but doesn't really do anything) capability to function without first procuring more money not spent elsewhere into funding better equipment?
I mainly say this because im in the middle of writing a suggestion thread as i speak; about the economics of how compared to mercenaries and rich folk operate in the mini-economy and some suggestions on how to budget armies a little bit more so that sieges can differ in quality between different civs at different levels of wealth. It'd be nice to have some informative quotes by the next time the FotF rolls around.
Its novel to think that humans while being the most merchantile grop with the highest respect for commerce, propensity to build merchant companies, (and some guilds to refine goods) are often fielding the worst armies quality wise in mass deployment of copper equipment, because the person in charge of the squads is a low paid and ranking member of their society with enormous gambling debts.
Mostly people aren't paid for regular w.g. jobs. The wealthy people that aren't explicit villains generally come out of the trading companies, where they can make and lose money from their "account" on each venture (these are reported as events.) We just did the bare minimum necessary here, or somewhere below it. Site armies aren't linked into an economy at all. There's just nothing to work with here currently. Theoretically speaking, the equipment stockpiles on site would be where the equipment comes from at first - that only requires "account" insofar as civs and sites trade on that number currently, and if they can't produce or trade for equipment, they wouldn't have it. Of course, whenever we get around to linking site/civ armies to site stockpiles, we'd need to work on the economy a bit, so the current state isn't really informative at all.
Quote from: ror6ax
Will adventure mode get graphical paper-doll equipment screen?
Will there be daytime/nighttime change in DF? At least purely cosmetically it would be nice IMO.
Can we have animation for wind swaying the trees lightly? Pretty please :)
Will there be animations for moving objects, destroying objects, dorf attacks, fire, waterfalls etc?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8175484#msg8175484
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176645#msg8176645
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176658#msg8176658
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176777#msg8176777
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176782#msg8176782
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176864#msg8176864
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176872#msg8176872
etc.
Not of any size, as that's a lot of extra work we can't easily put in for now. But the critters themselves in both modes will likely have some paper doll aspects.
The day-night issue is covered by the comments pretty much. There are a lot of issues and it's not planned.
The streams raised the animation bar considerably for us, but I'm not sure any thing else will be coming to meet them any time soon. Still lots of basic stuff left to do!
Mostly not, especially at first, I expect. They'd add a lot to the game of course, but we're operating under considerable limitations for the first release, and just getting all of the basics done will be good.
Quote from: Gadersd
Do you have any interest in adding evolutionary capabilities to the game? I think having physical features naturally adapt to each environment would add a lot of interesting variety to the game. Maybe even aspects of personality and mind can be tied to genetics in the game? Regarding the time scales, I have made a few simulations of my own and evolution can happen very fast in some circumstances. Wars and environment changes can spur rapid change in the gene distribution. This may be out of scope for what you have in mind for DF, but I think it could lead to interesting cases, such as magically inclined or magically resistant populations.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8175604#msg8175604
Not a focus on the time scales we're working with for sure, and it would seem kind of tacked on in most circumstances we can pull off. If we do make the model more complicated/less buggy/whatever the current issue is with stats as in the recent thread/etc., we could arrive at dog breeds and things, which is where we were aimed partially initially, as I vaguely recall. But other lasting change and adaptation is likely to come more of necro experiments etc. etc., as currently. I don't think we could reasonably do a model that sufficiently like, slowly changes moth colors if magic pollution makes everything purple, or whatever, that wouldn't be better done just as a more explicit non-model effect (processor etc.-wise). But it's hard to say in the end where any population dynamics or ecology will lead us - even simple tweaks to the existing breed structures involving drift/mutation on a pop scale would get us evolution by definition (if the dynamics give us selection based on whatever drifts, which is harder), it just wouldn't be any good. Definitely the sort of thing that would happen on a lark rather than an explicit feature arc.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
With features like beard color being more visible by the promotional content for the steam release, do you think that there would ever be such popularity for a feature or increased requests for ways to aesthetically alter dwarf's beards or other body aspects through in-game means (bleaching beards, barbering & dying, tattoos, bodypaint, yikes deliberately cutting off hair as punishment etc.)
Something emergent like elves suddenly isolated and under shaping of dark forces becoming orcs (which is a device of Tolkien) or even the radical transformation of necromancer-experiments is a example of forced evolution. The people affected by it just live with it, when the site government falls apart for whatever reason they're thrown out into the world free to follow their wishes, they aren't night creatures but its easy to draw a association, a bit like when you judge a goblin in a tavern is automatically a spy.
I don't have an opinion of what would be popular here, but certainly a lot of that was kicking around the dev notes etc. (tattoos/paint/shaving have come up anyway), and the hair would very likely be reflected with whatever we have on the first Steam release (not that we are doing shaving soon.) Overall, it wouldn't surprise me if more people want things they can see. I don't know that it connects immediately to the more extreme stuff, though of course we'll have to reflect e.g. experiments in the initial release already.
Quote from: LordBaal
I have a question regarding the code. In the past the idea was to have the code delivered to the NY Museum of Arts in the case of Toady passing. First, I dont know if that actuallt meant the code would be made public or only parts of it as some display of sorts. Second, is that still the plan? Or now the code wont be released ever to anyone?
Also, Toady, would you aprove of us trying to use necromancy in that case to bring you back? I mean, what could go wrong? .
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8175652#msg8175652
Yeah, nothing has changed. I mean, except the chance of the passing, now that we are living in additional hells.
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Will 24-bit colors for text display mentioned in the 08/08/2020 dev post also be in the classic game?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176775#msg8176775
Technically, yeah, though it doesn't mean much yet. The game still uses the same colors in all of the text everywhere -- it's not like I updated those (~8000) calls to have a new color scheme everywhere. But we now have the freedom to do more, and more can happen, over in classic as well.
Quote from: Bumber
Is it true that long term memories can't be replaced by short term memories of equal strength? This Reddit thread seems to think it's the cause of major stress issues. (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/hjt112/i_think_ive_figured_out_the_stress_spiral_thoughts/)
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8176941#msg8176941
That doesn't appear to be how it works (not that there aren't bugs or issues, etc., so the following might not be how it actually works either.) The eight "long term" memory slots are a fairly short-term holding pen in the end, depending on how much happens to the dwarf - it appears they can get overwritten even by weaker short term memories that promote (which can happen after lasting a year in short term.) However, while they are in these eight slots, any long term memory that resurfaces (in the emotions paragraph) has a 1/3 chance at that time of being converted to a core memory, which is when the personalities change. There's no limit on how many core memories can be stored (within reason) and they don't get overwritten. The only time a long term memory can block itself from being overwritten by a short-term memory is if they are exactly the same type of circumstance, then the strong one wins. Core memories don't resurface as often, and aren't as intense.
For short term memories against themselves, the system is to take an empty slot first, otherwise if you find one with the same grouping you replace it if you are stronger (or equal strength 1/3rd of the time), otherwise if nothing matches, you simply overwrite the weakest (even if you are weaker than it!) So for them it's kind of the opposite, really - a dwarf with a lot of varied circumstances will overwrite strong memories with weaker ones before they get a chance to promote to long term. If anything is causing issues like rain-memory-prevalence it'd be something like this, because it is based more on frequency than strength.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Considering that when you subjugate goblins after much back and forth raiding & bashing up they don't really keep their promises at all to send you their agreed continous tribute, will you expect a further implementation of sending actors to these sites to do intrigue can help reinforce them doing 'what you want them to do' implicitly the game guessing for you on circumstance, or will there be details?
If it's just something broken, that's a separate matter - there's nothing fancy going on with tribute. Improved diplomacy is a whole topic - as we've mentioned a few times now, the previous work on villains and 'c' squads has pointed toward more and more diplomacy improvements.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Regarding the recent UI update posted for Steam; Can you yet say how much of an overhaul the Labors menu will receive? Will there be functional changes beyond graphics & mouse scrolling? i.e. the abilities of Dwarf Therapist utility to mass-apply labors and create custom 'professions' (a saved grouping of labors).
Edit: Do you have any new info regarding the Game Ending Stress thread?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8178074#msg8178074
We haven't started work on any of this yet (neither the labors nor the stress), so I don't have a lot to add. As Shonai_Dweller writes, we are leaning toward an automated default approach, so that the jobs get done and people don't have to micromanage or be confused about unfinished jobs, but that we may still have something under the hood for people to play with that want more control -- no idea what that looks like. I don't like the spreadsheet approach at all, but I'm not sure there's a better way to handle the micro-side of it, since that's exactly what is stored and what is going on. In some ideal universe, micromanaging simply wouldn't be desired by anybody, because whatever other system is working that well, but attaining that seems difficult.
Have taken a lot of notes on both the stress and noobs threads, but don't know what we'll get to yet (aside from certain UI stuff which addresses new player issues already.) Obviously some of it will be pretty high priority when we get to that stage, but e.g. changes to dwarf behavior come after graphics and UI.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
The top tab on the embark screen says "Dwarves". Is that a procedurally generated word that changes automatically in modded games? Or if not, can it be changed by modders?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8178293#msg8178293
Yeah, it changes automatically like other instances of dwarves. If the name of the modded creature is longer than the tab, it says "Citizens" instead.
Quote from: Yakefa
Hello,
I'm not a modder myself but I'm curious about modding possibilities. Anyone knows if the Toady is planning to make more of the hardcoded data accessible to modders for the steam version?
Basically giving full control to modders
LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8179450#msg8179450
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8179464#msg8179464
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8179467#msg8179467
Comments address this one pretty much. We're not doing a particular push here (the basic capabilities of the release are more important), and enterprising modders can do (and have done) pretty much anything already -- but it is good to make that easier, and more stuff will make it out to txt files etc. over time.
Quote from: LordBaal
Im wondering, we will be able ti turn things like stairs and ramps directions.
I mean the graphics. Currently the ramps and stairs are represented by a single title each, so i.e. in graphic packages you have to decide if up stairs and down stairs go to the left or the rigth. The ramps currently are represented in the vertical direcction.
Its only a cosmetic and useless issue.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8179749#msg8179749
LordBaal (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8179855#msg8179855
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8179862#msg8179862
Haven't done anything in particular with that. Seems reasonable enough now that we have the capability to show different stuff - I imagine there are various avenues here, with all sorts of tiles.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
The stuff you were talking about in the second-to-last DF talk about imaginary magic systems in mundane worlds got me thinking: will humans in such settings sometimes still believe that the vanilla DF fantasy races like dwarves, elves, goblins, and the like exist in their particular world? It's not like various human cultures haven't believed in these creatures in the past, so it would make sense.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8180421#msg8180421
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8180430#msg8180430
Yeah, the comments are correct - down to the FANTASY_SCALE idea, which exists as a slider rating in the current myth generator. Likely that'll become more complicated, as usual, but that's the basic idea. And yeah, there could still be mythical elves and things that people believe in. I suppose there might also naturally lead to situations where the humans believe in mythical beings but the settings don't remain low and then the beings can come into existence, variously. (Obviously if the player says "I want low settings!" they'll remain low, but there could be variability at higher settings as well.)
Quote from: PatrikLundell
What's the current approach regarding the UI for the Classic/character tile set Premium version of DF?
The reason for the question is the realization that things are reworked significantly, so the current UI can't be retained as is, and it seems to be a duplication of effort to make two different versions of the UI, in particular if a character set oriented version would try to emulate widgets using characters (or something looking like characters).
Edit: To clarify, I'm thinking of things like sliders, that do not naturally translate into tiles, rather than cases where the character tile set can easily be used instead of image/icon tiles.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8181347#msg8181347
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8181442#msg8181442
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8181721#msg8181721
I still haven't had to jump into this yet - until the main interface and a few other windows solidify, I don't want to code up ASCII equivalents that might just get dropped. But as the new graphical UI continues to come together, yeah, we'll have a few specific obstacles in terms of pixel graphics (sliders/scrollers/etc.) If their display snaps to the grid, that's probably mostly okay, though we'll have to try some examples to see if it really works. But yeah, as clinodev mentioned, there are some compelling reasons to just go ahead and try matching ASCII widgets and see how it goes.
To accommodate this and continued parallel Classic-Premium development, the entire non-play-area graphical UI interface is compatible with the old-style font-grid layer, so it's not actually as impossible a job as it might sound, mostly -- grid alignment is baked into everything already, with a few pixel offsets when necessary (for stuff like item and creature tiles in lists, which won't impact ASCII conversion.) But the core issue of whether ASCII lines/etc. look passable enough as widgets to be usable is open until we attempt a screen. If we're lucky, it'll come out looking like one of the current-gen ASCII roguelikes, with nice little clickable bits and menu division and such. If not, we'll have to formulate and implement a plan B.
The grid adherence does mean if some other texture size than 32x32 is used and/or some other font than 8x12, certain bits of the interface have to adjust to get the hybrid lists to work, and edges and stuff will need to be adapted by modder/etc., but it isn't a huge amount of necessary artwork so far. A lot of the work is in the code - some parts are still to-do there, getting arbitrary textures and font sizes to work together, but nothing looks too hairy.
Quote from: ArrowheadArcher
Will there be an expansion on medical simulation in Fortress Mode? Will there also be disease simulation, dentistry, and hygiene (haircare and skincare) in the game at some point?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8181444#msg8181444
Yeah, some of this is on to-do, and a lot is also implied by the current medical scholarship system as well (which doesn't interact with the hospital stuff at all, sadly.) Hopefully we can get to some as we go. The (relatively) upcoming adv mode medical stuff probably won't introducing a lot of new systems, as opposed to just bringing modes more into line.
Quote from: Schmaven
I heard there was some criticism of the scroll bars in the embark loadout screen. Have you considered having multiple pages to tab through rather than scroll bars? Already, there are category tabs at the top, so my concern with pages replacing scroll bars would be just too many tabs.
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8181527#msg8181527
Yeah, there are already a ton of category item tabs on the embark screen (and there are so many they have a scroll bar!) - at least those tabs make sense because they have some context attached to them. For random paging, scroll bars seem much, much more the industry standard than having page tabs, and page tabs are also much more limited in use I think since you just can't fit as many as you can fit with a scroll bar. Although I may be misunderstanding what is meant by tabbing pages -- if the page tabs don't have any graphical buttons, then going through 20+ pages with the tab key is a nightmare analogous to a lot of the existing DF UI problems people complain about, just an invisible scroll bar without a scroller to grab or the ability to partial-page. Hmm, I'm not sure what the criticism was in particular, so I don't want to be too negative. But I don't have that information.
Quote from: therahedwig
Do you think the 'text' terminal rendering mode for DF will survive all these upgrades? I know we're keeping an old-style ascii graphics pack, but all the changes made to different grid sizes sound like terminal-text wouldn't be compatible anymore.
We still have the main grid, and the text still lives there. Most of the interface does too, in some sense or another (a lot of elements are font-compatible in size, since they have to play nice with the text.) The graphical view and maps live in separately gridded/etc. windows, which don't exist in the current Classic version. So at the end of the process, we're still hoping to just have the one classic grid sitting there if graphics are turned completely off. Lots of hurdles to get by yet, as usual.
Quote from: squamous
1. What exactly is required for a bandit/mercenary fort to spawn in the world. I am currently working on a project in which the only civ type is the fortress site-type and the only biomes are tundra and mountains. The civ has BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS, but the forts themselves do not appear. Are there other requirements I don't know about? [answered I guess]
2. When the eventual military update rolls around, will there be more diversity in unit types? By which I mean more combinations of armor (ranged units in heavy plate armor for example) or the use of sidearms/multiple weapons, like a pikeman or bowman who carries a shortsword and uses it when the enemy comes close, or a berserker-type of fighter who uses two one-handed weapons.
3. Is there any way to prevent forgotten beasts from spawning without setting cavern layers to 0?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8182254#msg8182254
1. Military groups like merc companies build one when they have 50 members and a sufficient account. Bandits also need 50 people, but they don't use accounts. They can't build them near to other sites, on water, or in sand deserts, but mountain edges and tundra should be fine.
2. It'll need to understand a bit more about equipment divisions, yeah, though some of that specifically depends more on individual rewrites we might not get to (people switching weapons, etc.)
3. It's linked to the layers right now, yeah.
Quote from: Atomic Chicken
The Dwarf Fortress Wiki article on 'Time' indicates that time advances 72 times faster per tick in Fortress Mode relative to Adventurer Mode, which is something I've seen repeated as a fact in a plethora of forum posts over the years. However, when attempting to corroborate this using DFHack, I observed that the presumed fortress-mode-tick counter increases by 1 for every 144 increase in the presumed adventurer-mode-tick counter, and the counter from which the calendar date appears to be derived in both modes increments by 1 when these increase by 10 and 1440 respectively. To me, this implies that the time difference between the two modes is in fact double the value stated above. Is this actually the case, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8182008#msg8182008
The current number is 144, yeah, and half-seconds, as I recollect the conversions. It used to be 72, but that changed some years back, when travel times didn't have enough granularity for the sprinting etc., perhaps (I don't recall the year or situation exactly - we were also having issues with travel mode travel time granularity.) Certainly understandable that 72 is still assumed, since there wasn't more than a simple statement about this at the time (if that, whenever it was), and I likely got it wrong afterward a few times.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Since the positions are hardcoded at present, for the upcoming (past steam release in mind) Military Arc, would you be releasing any of the structures related to the military positions (like elf rangers, human warriors, generic captains etc) to the modding community or would you be expecting to flush them out and put in a new system/set of positions in typical DF style?
It's kind of frustrating that these old positions with [ATTACK_ENEMIES] and [PATROL_TERRITORY] do not have any perjunctive use at all but carry everything related to sieges in their mysterious ways, but i hope im not overstepping too much asking about it; after the modding community got a significant boost in 47. with forgotten beasts and our special friends the clowns's special tokens being brought to the forefront was greatly appreciated.
It depends on which bits you mean. A lot of the military isn't hardcoded (though the structures there such as squads/militia captains/etc. work more in fort mode), but the generic procedural bits are, and like the forgotten beasts, it's not simple to get the procedural bits out. There's a lot that needs to be integrated and thought about, and I'm not sure how it'll end up. The game has never understood civ/site armies very well at all - it just gathers people up and smacks them together, whereas the forts and even the bandits have more structure to them, whereas the mercenaries etc. have structure as well but it's very procedural. On the other hand, a lot of the merc stuff like honors (titles/ranks/etc.) are rawable.
Quote from: neutrino431
This has probably already been asked, but will we be able to transfer saves from the current version to Steam and vice versa?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8183839#msg8183839
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8183968#msg8183968
There'd definitely need to be some work done once we change the save structure to decouple graphical tile sets from saves (as the old system of bundling them is completely unfeasible now), but they might still work after that. They still work currently.
Quote from: Beag
1. Will the graphical equipment and goods selection screen also be used when selecting our starting gear in adventure mode in addition to being used in fortress mode?
2. Will the fast travel screen in adventure mode also have a graphical mini map version?
1. Haven't gotten there yet, but that's where it seems to be headed!
2. I haven't thought about a pixel minimap there specifically. In some sense, it might not be incredibly useful, if a screen is ~1900 px wide, then you'd be more than a hundred tiles wide already (map tiles are 16x16), and our currently pixel minimap in fort mode is just 192x192 (obviously it would help a bit more vertically.) But I'm open to different looks there.
Quote from: Egan_BW
For the steam/itch release, will there be support for playing different music depending on the situation? Like changing song during a siege, breaching HFS, traveling, exploring, combat in adventure mode?
We have a song recorded already for one such thing, so there'll be something like that, though I don't know if we'll go beyond whatever triggers we actually implement as we go.
Quote from: Uthimienure
Will you post a cute picture of Scamps?
Scamps (https://bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/box_scamps.jpg)
Quote from: Bumber
How does the differences in trailing gut behaviour between tileset and ASCII modes affect save compatibility?
IIRC, you can currently smash trailing guts with a drawbridge. Would they disappear in tileset mode if you smashed them in ASCII mode?
There is no difference in the saves from the guts. It just doesn't display the second tile. Currently, there isn't a lot you can do mechanically with the second tile (we had various ideas that didn't go in), so it isn't a big deal. Couldn't find anything in the drawbridge smashing function that referred to guts either.
Quote from: Beag
How many more things need to be done before dwarf fortress can be released on steam?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8184644#msg8184644
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8184747#msg8184747
Addressing the remarks there, there is a deadline (it isn't this year, and I don't want to get into it specifically since it's not the same as a release date. We do not have a release date.) 2020 has been complicated, obviously, and could get arbitrarily more complicated - I'm sure there's a certain amount of flexibility possible. However, that isn't the way to operate - going to work, going to get things done. PatrikLundell is correct that there's a whole giant list of things we need to do and a whole list of things that we want to do, and there's no way we're getting to everything. Fortunately, the Steam release is in some senses just another DF release (one which we'd like to be as good as possible, of course), and we can keep working afterward, as usual.
But yeah, there's a ton left to do. I don't want to commit to implementations or even overmuch to what's in and out, so I'm not going to provide a detailed to-do list. As PatrikLundell says, we may have to cut things off our desired list for the first release, but as we proceed that'll hopefully just be stuff we haven't even mentioned, much less promised.
Quote from: ror6ax
Will there be a new font for Steam version of the game? I find the existing one not blending well with the UI.
Dunno yet. I agree the MS-DOS look of it doesn't hold up so well in the absence of surrounding ASCII glyphs, but we're currently trying not to create additional problems for ourselves, which would happen if we tried to do anything fancy with it.
Quote from: Oreos
Hey Toady I've seen some mentions of alternative "Planes/Universes" in the questions and I had a couple questions about them too, along with Gods, Divinity, and Magic.
1.Could it be possible to "Destroy" an entire Plane?
2.Will Gods have a chance being able to physically enter and interact/alter a plane, as a Living God/Avatar. Or Potentially Create a Entirely New Plane?
3. Is there a Chance of a Plane where Gods Reside? such as Mt. Olympus in Greek Mythology. Where Gods will Exist as Physical Beings and interact with each other? Potentially effecting the Mortal Plane?
4.If So Will Gods have a chance being able to physically enter and interact/alter a plane, as a Living God/Avatar. Or Potentially Create a Entirely New Plane?
5.will it be possible for a Mortal Creature to Ascend to Divinity?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8184867#msg8184867
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8184904#msg8184904
Yeah, as the comments noted, we don't have a feature set nailed down. Some things are more likely than others for a first pass - having places where deities reside is almost assured, whereas the destruction of an entire plane is more likely the earlier in time you go. We'd like to have change on that scale, of course, but whether or not the first pass handles it is an open question. State changes (mortal -> divine, etc.) are part of the creature writeups in the myth prototype already, in some sense, mostly through meditating or dying, that sort of thing, and I'm sure that'll expand out as it goes. But yeah, certainly these are the kinds of things we're aiming at.
Post by: clinodev on September 02, 2020, 01:41:34 am
There's quite a lot to take in in this one!
Post by: Rubik on September 02, 2020, 01:59:53 am
Post by: Urist McSadist on September 02, 2020, 11:36:10 am
Post by: ror6ax on September 03, 2020, 08:40:44 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 03, 2020, 08:46:06 am
What are your plans on fixing game's performance in the long run? It's hardly possible to play with 50 dwarves, if we add procgen magic and planes to it - it would be even slower?I play with regularly with 150 + visitors and don't have a particularly powerful machine. Check all the known bugs that cause sudden drops in fps (like pets trying to path through locked doors). Fixing these would be a nice start even before looking at any more complex optimisations.
You'll note that the game is now running faster than it did in 2014 despite all the additions that have been put in since that release. Most FPS death occurs because the actual fortress you're running gets too big/cluttered, etc, not because events in the outside world are occuring.
Post by: Ziusudra on September 03, 2020, 03:40:44 pm
What are your plans on fixing game's performance in the long run? It's hardly possible to play with 50 dwarves, if we add procgen magic and planes to it - it would be even slower?Here's someone who has managed 2000+ : https://dffd.bay12games.com/who.php?id=1895
Also, we use lime green text for actual FotF questions.
Post by: Eric Blank on September 03, 2020, 04:55:01 pm
What are your plans on fixing game's performance in the long run? It's hardly possible to play with 50 dwarves, if we add procgen magic and planes to it - it would be even slower?
In the long run, the plan iirc is to finish the desired additions, replace existing systems where necessary (creature pathing, one of the biggest causes of fps loss, was mentioned as a candidate for complete replacement with a less buggy, more optimized model, but Toady isn't/wasn't ready to do that just yet), then optimize the completed systems. In the short term there have been lots of fixes to existing bugs causing fps loss that have been brought to his attention, some features that regularly cause fps loss like temperature calculations, invaders (forgotten beasts made of fire...), Limit the number of visitors/sieging forces, and the number of dwarves, all of which can be disabled in the D_init.txt file and others can be controlled directly or indirectly by the player (as noted above with pets and locked doors, though that bug is also on the bug tracker iirc.) You can avoid sites with flowing water, remember to always build a drawbridge or floodgates to stop water/lava flows and pump stacks you create.
There are also several mods that get rid of everything "extraneous" like limiting the number of types of clothes/armor etc.
The optimizations not god-tier like HL2 where individual rooms were cut from memory as you moved through levels so the only things being calculated were those directly in front of you, but it's sure as hell better than ARK: Survival Evolved. That game makes my computer cry.
Post by: Gtyx1 on September 07, 2020, 12:06:54 pm
2. In adventure mode, the zones menu brings up a 'craft guildhall' option, does this have any purpose in adventure mode?
3.
a. Are there plans to make the other main races become Outsider controllable, and if so, will Outsiders be able to create groups to claim their camps?
b. And are there plans for giving String names to items and groups
4. I read that apparently there are plans to add the ability to romance ncps and play as an heir in adventure mode, how would this be implemented especially with the slowing of time in adventure mode?
5. Are there plans to have tavern games? And If so, would these games like chess or tic tac toe (by different in-game names of course) open up a new interface to have the player directly compete with an A.I, or would it be like how performances are done where a moment passes and its completed?
Post by: ror6ax on September 08, 2020, 09:49:01 am
Post by: Pancakes on September 09, 2020, 03:48:19 am
Post by: ror6ax on September 10, 2020, 08:44:47 am
What do you think of it's UI?
Have you seen new UI being developed - https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/ho140h/ui_design_of_the_game_caves_of_qud_finished/ ?
Any thoughts on this top-bottom approach vs DF's apparently opposite approach - from details to the wide picture.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 10, 2020, 08:55:33 am
Following Df talk with Brian Bucklew - have you played Caves of Qud?Yes, Toady's mentioned playing Caves of Qud many times before.
What do you think of it's UI?
Have you seen new UI being developed - https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/ho140h/ui_design_of_the_game_caves_of_qud_finished/ ?
Any thoughts on this top-bottom approach vs DF's apparently opposite approach - from details to the wide picture.
Interested in what you mean, can you give an example? I don't think we've seen much of Toady's thoughts on the actual design process. Devlogs have been incredibly dull for this dev arc, only updating when there's pretty pictures to show (probably reflects what Toady says about not enjoying the process). However he started from a point of view making the overall experience better for a player starting up the game and the steps they go through to get into the game. Although little has been mentioned on how that actually works yet. Not sure if that's what you mean by "details".
Post by: ror6ax on September 10, 2020, 03:44:04 pm
Following Df talk with Brian Bucklew - have you played Caves of Qud?Yes, Toady's mentioned playing Caves of Qud many times before.
What do you think of it's UI?
Have you seen new UI being developed - https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/ho140h/ui_design_of_the_game_caves_of_qud_finished/ ?
Any thoughts on this top-bottom approach vs DF's apparently opposite approach - from details to the wide picture.
Interested in what you mean, can you give an example? I don't think we've seen much of Toady's thoughts on the actual design process. Devlogs have been incredibly dull for this dev arc, only updating when there's pretty pictures to show (probably reflects what Toady says about not enjoying the process). However he started from a point of view making the overall experience better for a player starting up the game and the steps they go through to get into the game. Although little has been mentioned on how that actually works yet. Not sure if that's what you mean by "details".
I've just seen the most recent email update - 'Activity Zones & The Sanctum of Lunch' and it's a good example of what I mean. Activity zones are exactly like they used to be, just with a new skin on them. New UI of Caves of Qud actually changed the way you interact with the game. It all started from a mockup of an entire game being finished (seen in the link) and now devs are implementing it.
From what I can observe, DF premium is being done in an opposite way - atomic chunks of game like one menu or one mode(zone mode) are being re-made in graphical mode but absolutely identical in terms of UX.
We won't get the "zones, designations and stockpiles are the same thing but with different controls" problem fixed, we'll just have it manifest slightly less because of mouse control. To fix this problem you'd have to make a generic "zone" UI which would somehow have all 3 types represented in it, which does not seem to be happening. Military screen won't be any better if we add icons to it - you'd still need to make 25 different actions to get military going and one mistake will undo all your progress. Only a UX change would mitigate military screen.
Similar with icons - as much as I like art we're seeing, we can't really tell if it's going to mix well until we see it all on the screen together. It may end up being lots of beautiful items forming a complete epilepsy inducing mess - or bleak unreadable mess - or cartoony mess.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 10, 2020, 04:34:11 pm
Perhaps the weird devlogs are something to do with with what Toady mentioned about Kitfox wanting to announce certain milestones at specific times so he can't just chat freely like he used to. How far in advance was the new Qud design philosophy announced and explained in detail?
Don't expect them to rewrite the game from scratch though. That would be suicide to try right before releasing on Steam.
Post by: ror6ax on September 10, 2020, 04:45:05 pm
Probably a limitation of implementing a new UI for a completed game, compared with one which has several decades of development left. As I said, there's been very little actual information on development in the devlogs so we really have no idea of anything they're doing besides adding a tileset (which you don't need to use and most people will likely replace with the tileset of their choice just like we've always done).
Perhaps the weird devlogs are something to do with with what Toady mentioned about Kitfox wanting to announce certain milestones at specific times so he can't just chat freely like he used to. How far in advance was the new Qud design philosophy announced and explained in detail?
Don't expect them to rewrite the game from scratch though. That would be suicide to try right before releasing on Steam.
As long as military screen gets a tad better, I'm ok with anything including ASCII mode. Just curious as to how DF is being developed.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 10, 2020, 04:57:04 pm
1. Brand new "skin" to go with the Premium tile set (with the intention to get the corresponding functionality for Classic and Premium with the character tile set). This part is basically "just" a skin over all of the UI screens, with re-scaling, different widgets (e.g. sliders), mouse support, etc. on top of the same functionality. This is a lot of work, even without touching the underlying functionality.
2. UI (or UX?) improvements where hard to understand/confusing/bad/... functionality is modified to work better. This would, presumably, be integrated into the work when 1. hits those particular parts, but it makes sense to start to iron out the "purely cosmetic" principles before tackling the combination of presentation and functionality. The military screens and stockpiles have been mentioned as candidates for underlying functionality rework. As with everything DF, we can expect that the list of candidates is significantly longer than the amount of time available for work on them, so most of it will probably get cut. Also note that 1. has to be done for every single screen in DF as you can't cut any screen (you can work faster and sloppier, but that's about it).
Overhaul everything? Sure. Just allocate the next 5 years to that effort (and Toady may well tire and give up on DF before that, given that he seems to find the task about as stimulating as I would).
Post by: ror6ax on September 10, 2020, 05:21:01 pm
Sure. Just allocate the next 5 years to that effortThere's no need to be sarcastic. I was asking a question in good faith with only the best intensions.
UX is a part of the game, important one at that. Some games have 3 if statements for logic + good UI and as a consequence are enjoyed by millions.
DF can simulate psychology of necromancer search for life purpose in perfect detail, but if a user can't pick items to encrust they won't be bothered to stay long enough to witness all the greatness the game has to offer. What's the point of crafting weapons if you can't reliably make dwarfs get to use said weapons?
Treating UX as an irritating chore is self-defeating behaviour that is very popular among professional developers. I know because I see it happen every day. It's also been proven (long ago) an anti-pattern that needs to be fixed in the entire industry.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 11, 2020, 04:02:37 am
There are some reasons why many professional programmers find UX a chore:
- It's something they're not good at, and know they aren't, and it doesn't feel good to do a mediocre job and know you can't do better.
- It's something everyone and their cat can have (widely conflicting) opinions of, and they tend to voice those opinions loudly and with certainty (we've seen a bit of that in the tile set thread). Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
- It can be an actual chore, in that you have to do essentially the same thing over and over again, and if any improvement is made, you'll have to go back and retrofit that into all the work made previously.
- The qualities needed to be a good programmer are completely different from the qualities needed to make a good UX (just like the qualities needed to be a good plumber are completely different from those required to take care of the bookkeeping). This is basically the first point reiterated.
In the ideal world you'd have UX specialists working together with programmers to produce the UX.
Edit:
Just to prove that anyone can have UX opinions, I'll add a comment on the cross posted zone images:
I find that a clear indication of what items tool tips refer to are missing in the images. A little gem at the slider indicating the position is a bit weak, and it ought to be an line/item selection indication as well (e.g. through a different color).
Post by: therahedwig on September 11, 2020, 06:45:21 am
On top of that, from the talks, it seems DF is going to have a responsive UI, which is something that the majority of games aren't doing (though, that might also be that unity doesn't do responsive UI well? Not sure).
Like I said, I am pleasantly surprised DF is going to become more simcity like in it's UI, because with my experience of UI stuff getting to this point is already really hard.
Furthermore, the zones stuff you are talking about isn't just interface, but it is also something that directly influences how the AI works with these elements. So it would require another rewrite on top of the functioning UI framework being build. EDIT: and, come to think of it, will destroy backwards compatibility.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 11, 2020, 07:27:15 am
Post by: Bumber on September 11, 2020, 11:45:43 am
From what I can observe, DF premium is being done in an opposite way - atomic chunks of game like one menu or one mode(zone mode) are being re-made in graphical mode but absolutely identical in terms of UX.
There's this part of the 08/21/2020 devlog:
Quote
There's currently a supply/population readout at the top, and you can access the stocks screen directly from there - stocks are not a screen anymore, but a large window that comes down, with visual contents more or less like the embark item above. Instead of adding and subtracting as in embark, buttons for recenter/view/forbid/dump/melt/hide options are available, both for groups and individual items. And it has text filtering now!
We're hoping to continue to bring screens hidden in the depths out to the main screen as possible (the Stocks used to be found at 'z' and then some tabs over), allowing you to remain more present in the main play area as in most modern strategy games. I think the world map ('c') will probably still be its own screen, due to the world map display, but we'll see about the rest!
Post by: TrevorBOB9 on September 11, 2020, 12:13:13 pm
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?
2. I don’t know how you feel about slightly personal questions, but is there any particular significance behind the name “Tarn”? I’ve never heard of it anywhere else.
Post by: Bumber on September 11, 2020, 01:54:32 pm
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?
I very much doubt it, given the expected development time of DF versus the period Nintendo, et al, support their consoles.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 11, 2020, 05:49:55 pm
Hey TarnTarn is going to be busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. Not Kitfox. So not very likely at all.
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?
(Tarn. Norse origins. Because Toady is a Viking. Maybe).
Post by: clinodev on September 12, 2020, 04:57:42 am
Hey Tarn
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?
From what we've been told, Kitfox isn't touching the code at all, now or later. The closest they come is I gather they're handling the contracts of the artists, who have had a lot of input recently just due to being DF fans with ready access. I imagine Tanya X. Short and Tarn talk shop as well, as friends and leaders in academic procedural game design. They're just publishing it, handling things Tarn doesn't want to handle, not buying it and handing it over to another studio.
I wrote and erased a big thing on why you don't want to run DF on your Switch or most (any?) other console, but this isn't really the place for it. Instead let me encourage you to look into one of the in-browser terminal emulators like ArmokWebServices or DFPlex. They probably will do what you want, DF on a small portable device, and do much better by running DF itself on an inexpensive remote server instance. Likewise there's a iOS app on the Apple store which does a similar thing, very well, as I understand it.
Post by: voliol on September 12, 2020, 07:45:33 am
While babynamescube (https://www.babynamescube.com/tarn-name-meaning) and themeaningofthename (https://www.babynamescube.com/tarn-name-meaning) claims that origin of the name, the Norwegian statistics bureau says there are 0 Tarns in Norway (you can search for names on their site (https://www.ssb.no/navn#renderAjaxBanner)). Isn't the true origin just the noun "tarn" meaning "pond, small lake"?Hey TarnTarn is going to be busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. Not Kitfox. So not very likely at all.
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?
(Tarn. Norse origins. Because Toady is a Viking. Maybe).
(There are also 0 people with the first name Tjern/Tjörn, which is Norwegian for "tarn", so I doubt the origin of the name is Norwegian immigrants changing their names by direct translation. It technically could still be Norwegian somehow, but my bet is on some conjuring of information along the line, and then sites copying another without facts-checking.)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 12, 2020, 08:34:57 am
"Lake" is a fairly reasonable name. Craig after all, just means "Rock". But yeah, seems to be rare.While babynamescube (https://www.babynamescube.com/tarn-name-meaning) and themeaningofthename (https://www.babynamescube.com/tarn-name-meaning) claims that origin of the name, the Norwegian statistics bureau says there are 0 Tarns in Norway (you can search for names on their site (https://www.ssb.no/navn#renderAjaxBanner)). Isn't the true origin just the noun "tarn" meaning "pond, small lake"?Hey TarnTarn is going to be busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. Not Kitfox. So not very likely at all.
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?
(Tarn. Norse origins. Because Toady is a Viking. Maybe).
(There are also 0 people with the first name Tjern/Tjörn, which is Norwegian for "tarn", so I doubt the origin of the name is Norwegian immigrants changing their names by direct translation. It technically could still be Norwegian somehow, but my bet is on some conjuring of information along the line, and then sites copying another without facts-checking.)
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on September 12, 2020, 08:39:54 am
While babynamescube (https://www.babynamescube.com/tarn-name-meaning) and themeaningofthename (https://www.babynamescube.com/tarn-name-meaning) claims that origin of the name, the Norwegian statistics bureau says there are 0 Tarns in Norway (you can search for names on their site (https://www.ssb.no/navn#renderAjaxBanner)). Isn't the true origin just the noun "tarn" meaning "pond, small lake"?
(There are also 0 people with the first name Tjern/Tjörn, which is Norwegian for "tarn", so I doubt the origin of the name is Norwegian immigrants changing their names by direct translation. It technically could still be Norwegian somehow, but my bet is on some conjuring of information along the line, and then sites copying another without facts-checking.)
Could possibly be a nickname turned name from Tor-Arne or Thorarinn, but yeah, could just as well just be made up from the word tarn.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 12, 2020, 08:46:20 am
Also a submarine (nearly):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Tijgerhaai_(P336)
Post by: falcc on September 15, 2020, 10:29:49 pm
If you only travel by night, sneak well, swim through sewers to avoid leaving tracks, and stay out of sight the entire time can you keep the artifacts you steal from generating rumors of their actual location indefinitely? If you manage to keep the rumors down this way could you still return the item for positive reputation or does there need to be intervening rumors about it being taken?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 15, 2020, 10:51:42 pm
Someone other than Toady probably already knows this one.You can always just take on a secret identity to steal the artifact. Then return it as yourself. So long as no-one saw you, you should be OK.
If you only travel by night, sneak well, swim through sewers to avoid leaving tracks, and stay out of sight the entire time can you keep the artifacts you steal from generating rumors of their actual location indefinitely? If you manage to keep the rumors down this way could you still return the item for positive reputation or does there need to be intervening rumors about it being taken?
But still, some more technical info on how rumours travel would surely be interesting.
Post by: Cruxador on September 18, 2020, 11:16:19 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 19, 2020, 02:51:02 am
All that's been said so far indicates that the key binding functionality would be identical between the Premium and the Classic version, so if one version requires a mouse equivalent the other one does as well (it can be noted that a key binding widget should work identically in Tile Set as well as Character mode, with only the tiles used for potential decoration of the widget differing).
Post by: txtsd on September 19, 2020, 09:52:19 pm
Quote
Quote from: nenjin on October 25, 2017 at 08:03:05 am
The last few years browsers have started more aggressively notifying you when the connection is insecure.
I spend a lot of time on these forums and I know others do as well. Is there anyway we could get the forum running on HTTPS? I think it'd make a lot of us feel safer browsing on the forums.
Thanks!
Yeah, we've been looking at that, but it's a mess. Once the next release is up and stabilized, we might take some time with it, since it'll be a long process -- we also have to upgrade other aspects of the server to get the next SMF patch to work.
According to people that have looked at what's being sent back and forth, I'd recommend making sure you don't use your username/password combination elsewhere if you are using the forum on coffee shop wifi or something.
Looks like a forum update was queued but forgotten about, will you be getting around to this soon?
EDIT: I'm primarily interested in getting us up on https.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 21, 2020, 06:57:18 am
Although, I guess it's nowhere on Bay12 site either, so maybe that means nothing...
Post by: Buttery_Mess on September 21, 2020, 08:51:15 am
Currently certain screens, like the military screen, do not scale with increased window size. Will all screens be fully scaleable in the Steam release, and therefore, will all screens be fully scaleable in the legacy release?
Several screens currently lock important information away from the player. For exaple, when a liason springs the barony nomination on you, there's no way to browse dwarf personalities and such like before leaving the nomination screen. You get a similar situation on the trade good requests screen. Will these screens be rethought for the next release? Either as a pop-up, a returnable-to prompt, nested unit screen menu or nested stock screen menu? I ask because it seems like at this point, you'll be forced to rethink just to make it graphical.
There are some elements of the UI that don't seem to be working as intended. For example, I noted that it's not possible to select generic leather as a material for shields or shell as a material for leggings on the military>uniform screen (or if it is there, it's rather hard to find.) I suppose my question is, are you planning on redesigning the interface as you tart it up in order to wring out all the quirks and bugs, or just tart it up, or tart it up and fix quirks and bugs, but not going so far as a complete redesign?
I have seen that you've already added nice features to the embark screen. I wondered if the trade menu was going to get similar treatment? I was buying gemstones earlier and this involved several minutes of hitting down, enter, down, enter... it made me think, can we expect to see general GUI features like being able to drag a box around multiple items, holding control to add items to a list on top of that, and so on?
I get the feeling that every screen and menu function in DF was scratch-coded from the bottom up every time a new feature was added to the game. Are you going back and replacing each unique menu with something more like a generic abstract interface now? Do you think this will make it easier to add new features in the future?
TrevorBOB9 asked about releases for other platforms. I remembered that Steam support for Linux is pretty good. Is the Steam release going to be Linux compatible? Have you thought about an android release- with the GUI improvements, this seems more reasonable.
I believe you've stated in the podcasts that you're not particularly enjoying UI work, is that true? What of it is the most rewarding aspect to you, and what's the least rewarding?
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 21, 2020, 11:25:50 am
Post by: falcc on September 21, 2020, 03:38:23 pm
Toady, do you have any loose plans for what the new adventure mode UI is going to be like, prior to the post-steam rewrites? For example:
1) Are you getting rid of the letter-based inventory?
2) Will interact with items, inventory, wear, drink/eat, etc stay in different menus or will there be all kinds of since-invented clicking interactions? If the latter what do you think you'll do with all those spare keyboard keys?
3) Will there still be roughly the same number of button presses for directed combat since the easy mode of just arrow buttoning towards an enemy is already implemented?
4) Will there be any changes to conversation filtering?
5) Any chance of a little speech bubble next to a sprite when a creature is talking?
Thanks for the answers as always. I'm SO excited to get this game on a whole new platform.
Post by: Mim on September 21, 2020, 04:13:27 pm
On the Wiki, there are listed some physical equations behind penetration of layers and how that interacts with tissue damage and armor in combat; I have been told these are from DF2012. The relevant equations are under https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Weapon#Combat_formulae (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Weapon#Combat_formulae) as:
1. M = Skill * Size * Str * Vel / (10^6 * (1 + i_Size/(w_density*w_size))
2. M >= (aSY/wSY + (A+1)*aSF/wSF) * (10 + 2*a_quality) / (Sha * w_quality)
3. 2 * w_size * wIY > A * a_density
4. M >= (2*aIF - aIY) * (2 + 0.4*a_quality) * A
Anyways, I am a physics nerd, and I would like to ask you what the true (and new) equations are and how they are used, so we can post them on the wiki and also marvel at your genius. We could use DFHack to figure it out instead of bugging you, but we might get the equations wrong (as, from what I can tell, at least one of the equations on the Wiki mixes units in rather horrifying ways).
Thank you,
Mîm the Petty-dwarf
Post by: Bumber on September 21, 2020, 11:37:34 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 22, 2020, 12:15:26 pm
Also, a minor question but what is the conceptual distinction between lower left, lower center, and lower right UI buttons? How might other things not yet represented be incorporated as UI work continues? Seems roughly like designations, various types of area that aren't designations, and then the escape menu and map? But that leaves a handful of things that you could get in one keypress that don't yet have a clickable button, notably everything to do with military (which I know is a much bigger topic).
Toady has earlier answered that the Character version of screens won't be considered in any detail until the principles have been worked out (if a widget turns out not to be that great, it's a waste to make a Character version of it as well). It's also been mentioned that key bindings will be thrown up in the air and reworked as part of the UI rework, so the particular key a function is bound to may very well change, but since key bindings are just that, displaying the key currently bound would reflect whatever the key is currently bound to. The optimistic interpretation is that key bindings won't be included in screens until the actual functionality has been decided upon, while the pessimistic one is that it will be put off until after the last minute, and won't make it in, as Toady's key support wordings have been less than reassuring.He mentioned that the keyboard support will still be there in the latest video, which is positive, at least, and I believe it's been said before too. Just nothing about any enhancements or changes to it. Even if it's last minute, I don't think representing key bindings would be cut altogether since it's not really that hard to do, just takes implementing it in each place. But even in terms of layout issues, they're planning full tooltip support and would be pretty easy to just stick a little text call into the tooltip.
All that's been said so far indicates that the key binding functionality would be identical between the Premium and the Classic version, so if one version requires a mouse equivalent the other one does as well (it can be noted that a key binding widget should work identically in Tile Set as well as Character mode, with only the tiles used for potential decoration of the widget differing).
Post by: voliol on September 22, 2020, 02:52:47 pm
Post by: ror6ax on September 23, 2020, 03:13:26 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 23, 2020, 03:23:38 am
What are you discussing? New video? Stress meters? Did I miss some new UI reveal?Was on Steam update.
Dev blog here is sadly now updated only occasionally. It'll get here eventually I expect.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.90
Post by: Cruxador on September 23, 2020, 03:59:51 pm
The rate of updates is within the range that it has been historically. Toady just doesn't make a special devlog for the marketing stuff that's made with the advisement of Kitfox, but just includes it in whatever dev log comes next.What are you discussing? New video? Stress meters? Did I miss some new UI reveal?Was on Steam update.
Dev blog here is sadly now updated only occasionally. It'll get here eventually I expect.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.90
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 23, 2020, 04:23:54 pm
Yeah, it's about was it has been for a very slow month. Down from once a week to one this month so far (and a Dftalk announcement). Of course, usually in a slow month it's slow because there hasn't been anything to write about. Which as you can see on Steam, isn't the case.The rate of updates is within the range that it has been historically. Toady just doesn't make a special devlog for the marketing stuff that's made with the advisement of Kitfox, but just includes it in whatever dev log comes next.What are you discussing? New video? Stress meters? Did I miss some new UI reveal?Was on Steam update.
Dev blog here is sadly now updated only occasionally. It'll get here eventually I expect.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.90
So people are commenting on updates, and others who don't see this because it's hidden in some other forum are getting confused. Ah well, the info's all out there somewhere, just gotta hunt for it. I guess that's always been the case.
Post by: Eric Blank on September 23, 2020, 04:30:34 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on September 23, 2020, 11:45:56 pm
I tried to watch the video last night but I've run out of data on my phone plan and have no other internet access, so the connection timed out because I'm getting like 0.5kb/s. Would someone be kind enough to post a transcript or summary of what was covered?UI Shit is happening! Mouse Control for lots of items! Not for everything. Hud elements to make it easier to see how happy your fort is!
Post by: jburtson on September 28, 2020, 05:58:26 pm
This is my first time on the forum but I had a few questions.
1. Will there be new types of generated playable races that come with the magic update?
2. Going forward, will Kitfox remain in the picture in order to create new artwork as new creatures/tiles may be added?
3. I'm excited about the prospect of in the post-magic update, trying to delve into worlds with a lot of magic and make sense of it all. But I'm wondering if given all the possible strange beings, realms, and magic systems, how much would the core gameplay of dwarf fortress still be usable? Would it be common for fortresses to be basically unplayably difficult, embarrassingly easy, or just there be fewer relevant gameplay features given the presence of non-dwarves? I guess what I'm trying to say is, are the more magical generated worlds going to be free to be game-breakingly strange, or will there be focus on making a game loop resistant to some of the wild aspects coming with the magic release?
Thanks for everything Toady and Kitfox! Very excited for the future of Dwarf Fortress!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 28, 2020, 06:12:30 pm
Hey Tarn,
This is my first time on the forum but I had a few questions.
1. Will there be new types of generated playable races that come with the magic update?
1) Yes, if you haven't seen it, take a look at the intro of the Mythgen prototype Tarn did a few years ago:
https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI
Notably, there will be "sliders" to determine the level of "fantasy" of your world, from completely mundane worlds with only humans, to total fantasy with completely procedurally generated races replacing everything (and steps in between of course, and all moddable so you might produce a "mundane" world with only dwarves, for example).
Might see more in the way of procgen creatures like the Experiments too, to add to Adventurer playable races, hopefully.
Post by: MrWiggles on September 29, 2020, 01:12:17 am
Welcome to the Forum! Hope you stay around!
3. I'm excited about the prospect of in the post-magic update, trying to delve into worlds with a lot of magic and make sense of it all. But I'm wondering if given all the possible strange beings, realms, and magic systems, how much would the core gameplay of dwarf fortress still be usable? Would it be common for fortresses to be basically unplayably difficult, embarrassingly easy, or just there be fewer relevant gameplay features given the presence of non-dwarves? I guess what I'm trying to say is, are the more magical generated worlds going to be free to be game-breakingly strange, or will there be focus on making a game loop resistant to some of the wild aspects coming with the magic release?
Thanks for everything Toady and Kitfox! Very excited for the future of Dwarf Fortress!
So a tip for asking question, is that anything that isnt being actively working on, wont get any substantive answers.
It often gets answer, 'Yes, maybe. Sounds good.' You'll more often get answers to questions to whats being worked on now or questions about a revent interview or event he did.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 29, 2020, 02:45:54 am
:
2. Going forward, will Kitfox remain in the picture in order to create new artwork as new creatures/tiles may be added?
:
That's part of Kitfox' publisher role in this case, so yes, when new stuff that needs to be displayed is added they'd have to facilitate the production of the new stuff. If, for whatever reason, the publisher role is taken by someone else a number of years down the line, it's reasonable to assume that publisher's duties would include the artist negotiations required. Note that the current indications are that the artists will continue to refine the current (i.e. Premium) set of tiles for at least some time after the Premium release. However, the Myth & Magic release won't happen until after the Big Wait, so we don't know if the current artists will be available at that time.
Post by: voliol on September 29, 2020, 04:43:58 am
1. At the top of the devlog pages of past years, e.g. http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2017.html, why "Development in 2015 (RSS Feed)"?
2. Could you set up redirects between "http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#year-date" and "http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_year.html#year-date" for applicable years/dates? Lots of "old" links (2015-2019 I believe) were broken by the remodeling, and it by the look of it all links to 2020-logs i.e. "http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2020-date" will break at the end of the year as well.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on September 29, 2020, 10:11:32 am
I vaguely remember the idea of introducing larger machinery to fort mode being discussed before, possibly going as far as having moving forts. Would the map rewrite make such things possible? I remember the idea being floated of being able to view squads going off map on missions in a little window. Is that possibility a planned feature for the map rewrite? Would that also make ships that come and go a possibility, or will that have to wait until trade and industry?
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 29, 2020, 11:13:34 am
The map rewrite will be done to provide a framework in which large machinery would fit, but won't implement it at that time. The multiple windows will be enabled by the map rewrite, but isn't expected to be in the first M&M release (one way portals only), but it's intended to support additional moving windows when those get implemented (although it wouldn't be surprising if static additional windows would appear before moving ones).
Post by: Beag on September 29, 2020, 06:12:47 pm
2. Sometime in the next few months can we see some screenshots of animal people and escaped necromancer experiments?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 29, 2020, 06:57:11 pm
1. How will naked creatures be handled in the steam release?(I have unfortunately run into some naked people in taverns)Some necromancer experiments have already been posted in the official thread on the tileset. (Or perhaps it was only night-trolls, I forget)?
2. Sometime in the next few months can we see some screenshots of animal people and escaped necromancer experiments?
Naked dwarves have also been mentioned there. Was quite a while ago so things may have changed, but the feeling was then that naked dwarves won't be naked (so much for visuals which give you instant information on what you need to know - nakedness will stress out dwarves badly after a while).
Tileset/general Steam visuals official thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.0
Post by: Lenin0Grib on September 30, 2020, 08:14:07 pm
Can you talk please how tiles works in steam version now? I mean render and data structure. In each Z layer it have now many tile layers or some other trick?
And if it possible make in future make open data file for community localisation in other lenguages?
Thank you.
Sorry for my english
Post by: delphonso on October 01, 2020, 02:02:13 am
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=28.0
Meph's threads go into some amount of detail on how it will work. Not sure if it's what you're looking for, though.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 01, 2020, 03:10:37 am
:
And if it possible make in future make open data file for community localisation in other lenguages?
:
Translation has been covered in the past. There are at least two problems:
- Text isn't located in any one location, but is spread out in many locations (including the raw files).
- Sentences are built, not looked up. This means that they're compiled from parts stored in many places, modified by the rules of the English language (e.g. "a" vs "an", and that isn't working perfectly either), with the words placed in the location in the sentences they'd be placed in when using English.
Replacing the text generation with something that's a replaceable module and restructure the raws to support all the various info arbitrary languages might need is a task that's going to have a very low priority when compared to everything that needs to be done (some of it urgently), so it's very unlikely to happen, and would probably require Toady to have a strange mood.
Post by: Toady One on October 01, 2020, 06:00:21 am
Quote from: Urist McSadist
Are powers unique to the individual on the table for the magic update?
There are various things on the admittedly vast table related to this. The least interesting and most likely is deity powers that aren't shared by others in the universe. There've also been ideas kicked around about inflecting powers on traits and so forth, and there are also various 'signature' type ideas. Just all sorts of things, but I have no idea what'll actually make it in initially here vs. what you had in mind.
Quote from: Gtyx1
1. Is any more adventure mode crafting coming in the near future, Such as wood and stone weapons crafting, cooking or clothes crafting?
2. In adventure mode, the zones menu brings up a 'craft guildhall' option, does this have any purpose in adventure mode?
3.
a. Are there plans to make the other main races become Outsider controllable, and if so, will Outsiders be able to create groups to claim their camps?
b. And are there plans for giving String names to items and groups
4. I read that apparently there are plans to add the ability to romance ncps and play as an heir in adventure mode, how would this be implemented especially with the slowing of time in adventure mode?
5. Are there plans to have tavern games? And If so, would these games like chess or tic tac toe (by different in-game names of course) open up a new interface to have the player directly compete with an A.I, or would it be like how performances are done where a moment passes and its completed?
1. The near future is the Steam/itch release, and we aren't going to do anything with that there. After that, the first chance for anything to happen is with whatever comes out of adventure mode medical. Then I'm not sure.
2. No, they don't do anything yet, not even the NPC ones really, aside from being a place for the NPC guild members to stand around in.
3. I don't have particular plans here - I expect this will be blown apart by the myth stuff before I change it again, though some tweaks may happen beforehand.
4. The ability to pass larger chunks of time in adventure mode has been waiting in the wings for a while, and has almost happened a few times. Even without those changes, it's certainly possible to play a fort and then revisit an adventure mode character when they are at a stage where e.g. their children are older, etc. But we're hoping to get some method of passing some months comfortably in adventure mode - hopefully something faster than the calendar, though that would necessitate abstractions, which is a small-to-medium nightmare.
5. Yeah, procedurally generated tavern games was a near-miss from some years ago, and we are hoping of course to get to that at some point. There were various plans of how that might play out in either mode, but they would be playable, yeah, and optionally playable in fort mode, perhaps. The latter is a difficult question of dwarven autonomy vs. letting fort-mode players try them out -- perhaps if the game is official in some way, ha ha.
Quote
Quote from: ror6axWhat changes to adventure mode are planned for Steam release?Quote from: falccToady, do you have any loose plans for what the new adventure mode UI is going to be like, prior to the post-steam rewrites? For example:
1) Are you getting rid of the letter-based inventory?
2) Will interact with items, inventory, wear, drink/eat, etc stay in different menus or will there be all kinds of since-invented clicking interactions? If the latter what do you think you'll do with all those spare keyboard keys?
3) Will there still be roughly the same number of button presses for directed combat since the easy mode of just arrow buttoning towards an enemy is already implemented?
4) Will there be any changes to conversation filtering?
5) Any chance of a little speech bubble next to a sprite when a creature is talking?
We haven't had to make the tough decisions yet -- it's a huge question for traditional roguelike feel, maintaining letters and so forth, or just going fully over to a new system, in a situation where we can't do everything as options right now. There's been a move against action-first inventory systems for a while now, and it's certainly more awkward with the mouse to have a ton of action buttons when you can just open up an item menu and get to everything that way after clicking an item. If we do end up with some free keys, we might need to do something like dump the whole qweasdzxc key cluster over to movement for people that hate moving with the mouse but still associate wasd with anything to do with movement, but I haven't refreshed my memory on the modern numpad-free examples w/ diagonal movement yet. And I'm not sure which way we'll go.
Yeah, I don't know how to reduce the number of actions below one without having an automated fight button. Pressing toward somebody is pretty efficient, and adding clicking to that is still one action. The detailed combat action menu will likely be easier to manage.
It seems likely that conversations will change, yeah, though there's something inherently messy and complicated with how it is under the hood, so it might not be too much of a change at first.
Speech bubbles: we're experimenting with a look like this for some of the fort-mode creature statuses (instead of flashing icons on them), so it might be well within the realm of what we end up with.
Quote from: Pancakes
Has there been any graphic work done to the intro cinematic? Are there any changes planned for the intro cinematic, either for this release or long term?
We haven't done anything with it, and I'm not sure if we'll keep some form of it for the graphics version or not. It no longer fits, exactly, but we haven't made a decision.
Quote from: ror6ax
Following Df talk with Brian Bucklew - have you played Caves of Qud?
What do you think of it's UI?
Have you seen new UI being developed - https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/ho140h/ui_design_of_the_game_caves_of_qud_finished/ ?
Any thoughts on this top-bottom approach vs DF's apparently opposite approach - from details to the wide picture.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8188732#msg8188732
ror6ax (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8188831#msg8188831
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8188861#msg8188861
ror6ax (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8188868#msg8188868
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8188875#msg8188875
ror6ax (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8188879#msg8188879
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189053#msg8189053
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189108#msg8189108
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189118#msg8189118
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189203#msg8189203
I haven't played since the UI changed, so I don't have any experience with it. I don't know any details of the arrangement there, but it looks like they had a dedicated UI person design that for them, which is cool. We don't have the ability to do a huge structural redesign here - especially regarding specific comments about rooms/zones, just in terms of new bugs alone it would put us way outside what's feasible. We are trying to touch the guts of the game only when necessary - there are places we've mentioned like the labor list where it'll be worth it to take a look since player confusion there outweighs new problems that might arise, but stuff like rooms and zones aren't terrible-terrible, compared to that, just a little odd, and we have to live with what we have for now.
Quote
Quote from: TrevorBOB91. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?
2. I don’t know how you feel about slightly personal questions, but is there any particular significance behind the name “Tarn”? I’ve never heard of it anywhere else.Quote from: Buttery_Mess-TrevorBOB9 asked about releases for other platforms. I remembered that Steam support for Linux is pretty good. Is the Steam release going to be Linux compatible? Have you thought about an android release- with the GUI improvements, this seems more reasonable.
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189247#msg8189247
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189315#msg8189315
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189430#msg8189430
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189460#msg8189460
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189468#msg8189468
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189469#msg8189469
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8189472#msg8189472
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8192358#msg8192358
1. Yeah, as stated in the responses, Kitfox isn't currently doing any coding work. Doing ports has been impossible for me without help, even the ones that we have up currently. I have no idea if what we've done to this point makes the game any more feasible for consoles, but it would have to be somebody aside from me doing it, and I'm not sure there's an arrangement there that would work or not, if everything else lines up. I know too little about it. Same goes for mobile stuff, if it is/becomes feasible.
The current Linux/Mac versions are not sellable (this is my fault, not the porting volunteers, obviously, since in the one case I never made a proper Mac bundle, and in the other, I never figured out how to do libraries/symlinks/wtvr in a wholesome way, and both these things are well beyond me), so we need to work through that before we can release on those platforms - this seems more feasible in the near-term than the rest, but it is not done yet. That'll likely be a whole discussion with Kitfox, whether it works in the existing partially-open-source framework or something new.
2. It's just the lake version, yeah. Like being named River, etc. My parents found it in the dictionary, so it's just the English word, which has Norse roots. Though I'm some portion Norwegian (to the point of lutefisk being a family tradition, as many of you have witnessed), it was just a dictionary grab, ha ha.
Quote from: falcc
If you only travel by night, sneak well, swim through sewers to avoid leaving tracks, and stay out of sight the entire time can you keep the artifacts you steal from generating rumors of their actual location indefinitely? If you manage to keep the rumors down this way could you still return the item for positive reputation or does there need to be intervening rumors about it being taken?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8190535#msg8190535
If nobody sees you holding it, and nobody saw you pick it up, it doesn't change their rumor state for the artifact, as far as I can tell searching through. Being seen picking up the artifact initially is what creates a thief reputation (or refusing to give it up when seen), and being seen afterward should only generate a "hey, give us that" encounter interaction, at which point you can choose to get a treasure hunter or thief rep based on what you decide (presuming that all works.) So yeah, they don't try to interrogate you to create a chain of custody for the item, to get your story on why you are holding it, which they should be interested in. It would certainly fit in with the sort of villain stuff we were working on, but even simple logic puzzles will be beyond them. It would be ideal to be able to catch players in lies, like, ever, but I dunno what if anything we'll be able to attain there when we loop back around to finishing adv villain/investigation stuff.
Quote from: Cruxador
In the recent images, the UI for zones doesn't represent hotkeys. Is this a decision that was made for aesthetic reasons, are details of the keyboard controls being reconsidered (and meaning that hotkey representation could change a lot), or is it just not there currently for another reason? Are there any particular thoughts about how keyboard usability will change in the steam/itch version? Most everything I've seen is about the new UI stuff, but personally this is one of the screens where I haven't memorized them and find it handy to have them listed. I'm sure there will also be plenty of new players who don't know that stuff but would rather use keyboard either for general efficiency or accessibility (mouse requires far greater manual abilities), so making that stuff easy to see is handy.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8191575#msg8191575
Cruxador (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8192739#msg8192739
Yeah, we are leaning toward tooltips having info on hotkeys currently, as that seems to be standard practice these days, rather than showing the bindings everywhere all the time. I don't think the bindings to e.g. choose zone types are going to change a lot/at all, necessarily, but map cursor navigation will have to be different, the big issue being that we have to stop pretending computers have numpads anymore, and I'm not sure where on the screen to sell that as an alternative to the mouse, since it isn't really standard at all.
Quote from: txtsd
Looks like a forum update was queued but forgotten about, will you be getting around to this soon?
EDIT: I'm primarily interested in getting us up on https.
Hmm, yeah, time has become less rather than more since I wrote the remark you quoted, when we delayed the last release and moved on to the Steam stuff. I didn't take the chance I may have had in 2018, and now it'll be difficult to do anything before the graphics release happens, since I'll possibly have to move the whole site somewhere new.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Just wondering as I don't see it on the Steam page anywhere, are you dropping the whole "Slaves to Armok, God of Blood" subtitle thing for Steam release?
Of course Dwarf Fortress is more the second subtitle, and Slaves to Armok is the title and God of Blood is the subtitle and Chapter 2 is the second title. We may end up simplifying it to stop some headaches down the road.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Currently certain screens, like the military screen, do not scale with increased window size. Will all screens be fully scaleable in the Steam release, and therefore, will all screens be fully scaleable in the legacy release?
Several screens currently lock important information away from the player. For exaple, when a liason springs the barony nomination on you, there's no way to browse dwarf personalities and such like before leaving the nomination screen. You get a similar situation on the trade good requests screen. Will these screens be rethought for the next release? Either as a pop-up, a returnable-to prompt, nested unit screen menu or nested stock screen menu? I ask because it seems like at this point, you'll be forced to rethink just to make it graphical.
There are some elements of the UI that don't seem to be working as intended. For example, I noted that it's not possible to select generic leather as a material for shields or shell as a material for leggings on the military>uniform screen (or if it is there, it's rather hard to find.) I suppose my question is, are you planning on redesigning the interface as you tart it up in order to wring out all the quirks and bugs, or just tart it up, or tart it up and fix quirks and bugs, but not going so far as a complete redesign?
I have seen that you've already added nice features to the embark screen. I wondered if the trade menu was going to get similar treatment? I was buying gemstones earlier and this involved several minutes of hitting down, enter, down, enter... it made me think, can we expect to see general GUI features like being able to drag a box around multiple items, holding control to add items to a list on top of that, and so on?
I get the feeling that every screen and menu function in DF was scratch-coded from the bottom up every time a new feature was added to the game. Are you going back and replacing each unique menu with something more like a generic abstract interface now? Do you think this will make it easier to add new features in the future?
TrevorBOB9 asked about releases for other platforms. I remembered that Steam support for Linux is pretty good. Is the Steam release going to be Linux compatible? Have you thought about an android release- with the GUI improvements, this seems more reasonable.
I believe you've stated in the podcasts that you're not particularly enjoying UI work, is that true? What of it is the most rewarding aspect to you, and what's the least rewarding?
The intention is to scale all the windows, yeah, and to have as few full-screens as possible when things work along with the main display instead. So far we've managed this. Seems like the 'c' screen is the only one sure to be its own screen so far (due to the map, though we could probably work through that as well). And yeah, the Classic release gets all of the sizing changes as well.
Screen rethinks: Some of this has been happening as we go, as you've seen with zone/stockpile repaints and the lift on size restrictions, the addition of new filters, and other stuff like that. It'll continue along like this, though I'm not sure what we'll specifically end up with for the meeting conversation bits yet -- it certainly doesn't need to be its own giant interrupting-pausing screen, though that would necessitate a small logic change over in meeting land allowing them to wait a bit for you, like a petition, which is fine.
Screen quirks/bugs: Some existing quirks will piggyback along through existing list initializers etc., but we've been cleaning things up as we go as well, since sometimes it is just staring at you when you draw a list/etc. up. But I'm not going to be able to systematically move over quirk-fixer suggestions and all of the bug tracker issues. There's just too much at every step.
Trade menu: I'd expect the trade menu to end up as good as the new embark screen, sure. I'm not sure we'll end up with rectangle drags and any specifics there. Of course, not getting to specific features in the first release doesn't rule it out for later - we have a lot to do now, and there'll continue to be a lot to do. More than before, this'll be a category of thing that gets worked on as we go, and upcoming features shouldn't start out looking terrible on their first passes either.
Good programming practices: It's not within my ability to do more than what I'm doing, which involves a lot of wholesome reuse but not, like, a proper API or anything.
UI enjoyment: It's awesome to see things come to life! And it is fun to, for instance, dig and draw zones and so forth. My least favorite bit is all the data entry and structuring along those lines, and tuning input issues, like if a click or scroll or wtvr isn't working quite right or whatever. With the overall design and practice of doing the UI, I'm not quite in my comfort zone. It helps to have played and thought about and worked on games for many years, of course, and I think things are going okay, but it's not my area of expertise so it's not as satisfying as working on the guts of the game.
Quote from: Mim
On the Wiki, there are listed some physical equations behind penetration of layers and how that interacts with tissue damage and armor in combat; I have been told these are from DF2012. The relevant equations are under https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Weapon#Combat_formulae as:
1. M = Skill * Size * Str * Vel / (10^6 * (1 + i_Size/(w_density*w_size))
2. M >= (aSY/wSY + (A+1)*aSF/wSF) * (10 + 2*a_quality) / (Sha * w_quality)
3. 2 * w_size * wIY > A * a_density
4. M >= (2*aIF - aIY) * (2 + 0.4*a_quality) * A
Anyways, I am a physics nerd, and I would like to ask you what the true (and new) equations are and how they are used, so we can post them on the wiki and also marvel at your genius. We could use DFHack to figure it out instead of bugging you, but we might get the equations wrong (as, from what I can tell, at least one of the equations on the Wiki mixes units in rather horrifying ways).
It's pages of mess now, so it's not easy to share simple equations, and I can't really process where those came from without doing a ton of work - ever since the combat move/attack split, where actions got smeared out over time, lots of variables of spread out over structures in time, so the attack has a velocity, and it does a standard p=mv when it hits and passes that into the impact sim, but since the initial v has to be calculated against strength/skill vs item mass etc. etc, frames before the impact happens, it may work out that way shown there for all I can tell -- though there are several v modifiers like hit roll (which encompasses skill) and rage and all that, so I'm pretty sure those are simplified, anyway. For instance, v is multiplied at the end by min(2000,500+hitroll*20)/1000, so a legendary roll can double incoming velocity, while an atrocious roll can halve velocity once everything else is accounted for, which isn't quite the 1x-2x range they have as a multiplier on the wiki. I'm not sure what exe diving etc. these are based on.
I wouldn't expect any of the units to work out, especially since some of it just isn't yet expressed meaningfully that way (e.g. attributes and edge and mail flex and body shapes and holes) so I iterated some dubious balance cludges. For instance, the velocity is modified by average_size/(weapon_mass+actual_size/100), but this is just to create a range of modifiers for differently sized creatures vs. different item sizes, since giants/humans/kobolds holding lead furniture/swords/daggers have to be variously satisfying and size rules everything, and we don't have a model for cross-sectional area of muscles or anything like that yet to govern large vs. small creatures. So it's just a range of bonuses -- 100 being default velocity for a creature unencumbered by their wield and otherwise unremarkable, down to a clamp at 1 if the wield's mass overwhelms the attacker (but the late post clamp modifier means a legendary swing can get that lead furniture up to 2!) And because there are lots of additional lines upon impact, I may be missing some important modifiers. When it multiplies by the item mass on impact to get the momentum, maybe you get it refactored to your original equation. So it feels more like:
v = ~hitroll * ~str * ~other_modifiers etc. * (average_creature_size / (item_mass + creature_size/100))
then frames later
p = item_mass * v
though it ends up with something like the p from the wiki if you stuff item_mass into the parenthetical expression and divide it out. We don't pretend v has an expression as m/s, since the creature bodies aren't really amenable to that now, but in the end it's supposed to be compatible with the speed of projectiles (though we don't account for the arm/etc. continue to push through after impact, which should be an important factor), not that the speeds of projectiles are likely any better, but at least there's some hope for them down the road.
And I'm out of time to look at 2-4, ha ha.
Quote from: Bumber
Can you describe where the data to populate the military equipment screen lists comes from? We can tell when the UI list is corrupted, but we need to know where the data is stored to potentially repair it with DFHack.
I'm not sure what people have been calling things, so it's hard to describe. When you go to choose a specific item, there are several lists sitting around from back in the arsenal dwarf days - that's an array of item ptr vectors with size item_type_number (ie, a vector of weapons, a vector of helms, etc.). That's sitting up in the global fort information structure (legacily called 'plotinfo' but I dunno what you all call it -- it has your civ id and the number of reserved bins, tons of fort-type info, along with these item array-vectors which live in a member structure that has equipment data), and there are three arrays like this, one for 'unmanifested' items, one for 'unassigned' items, and one for 'assigned' items.
Those lists themselves seem to get corrupted, though I've never caught the raid bug actually happening, so it's hard to tell what the starting point is, just that the military UI stuff is a symptom and not a cause (though military equipment assignment could very well be the cause somewhere in the giant mess of assignment code. I've pored over the part where raid stuff is offloaded more than once and couldn't find anything, so I suspect it's something bad about the military screen/equipping logic and how that interacts with a later raid offload, but I could be wrong there.) But yeah, as a bandaid, those lists could probably be cleared and reassembled from the existing fort items. There's also the specific items assigned to the equipment slot in the squad position, which are stored by id number so less likely to be the initial problem, though corruption could piggy back in there in the form of invalid (slab etc.) id numbers, and so it might ultimately be quite a task to fully rescue saves here.
Quote from: Cruxador
Regarding the UI in the new video, categorically, it looks great. Not sure the three types of food would be what I'd have put on the top bar but considering how much spare space there is, seems reasonable until the caravan arc comes to fuller fruition and other forms of wealth become available. What's the nature of the considerations for what types of resource are likely to be valuable to the player, and what resources or other elements have priority in the new UI? To what degree is it customizable, or (more likely) to what degree are possibilities of customizable UI being discussed? It would be cool if it were configurable so if, for example, you were working on a megaproject you could have stone (or even specific types of stone) on the bar.
Also, a minor question but what is the conceptual distinction between lower left, lower center, and lower right UI buttons? How might other things not yet represented be incorporated as UI work continues? Seems roughly like designations, various types of area that aren't designations, and then the escape menu and map? But that leaves a handful of things that you could get in one keypress that don't yet have a clickable button, notably everything to do with military (which I know is a much bigger topic).
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8192795#msg8192795
Ah, yeah, the top bar we were just fiddling around with the 'z' screen info and seeing what it would look like up there. We're probably going to end up with additional health/hunger/etc. info there, in addition to some of the resources, since it all fits, especially if we go to icons+tooltips. We've discussed making it customizable once we try some more options, but that's secondary to having something decent as a default. But yeah, any priorities we pick aren't going to be a match for certain forts, so hopefully we can get all the way there. The considerations for the initial defaults are mainly about preventing fort death and work blockages, etc., to the extent we can.
Yeah, the early idea while we're just sorting through stuff is that tile-level stuff is on the lower left, stuff related to buildings and activities and jobs that take structure space are on the middle, and status/management/etc. is on the lower right (most of those like the military don't have icons/buttons as placeholders yet) -- though we already have a future mockup that distinguishes stuff that pauses the screen, and places it on the right below the map instead. It's easy to move buttons around, so I wouldn't put too much on the exact current placements. There are a lot of potential options still to be placed up at the top level - each one we get up there comfortably saves a lot of digging around and potential confusion. We haven't yet settled on whether we'll end up with many text-based buttons yet (like the current "Stocks" button which may come off the top bar), or just icons. I have mixed feelings about the mockups we've tried that have buttons with text - it makes it more clear what the option is, but they takes more space and is more static/spreadsheet-feeling, or some adjective I don't have a handle on.
Quote from: jburtson
1. Will there be new types of generated playable races that come with the magic update?
2. Going forward, will Kitfox remain in the picture in order to create new artwork as new creatures/tiles may be added?
3. I'm excited about the prospect of in the post-magic update, trying to delve into worlds with a lot of magic and make sense of it all. But I'm wondering if given all the possible strange beings, realms, and magic systems, how much would the core gameplay of dwarf fortress still be usable? Would it be common for fortresses to be basically unplayably difficult, embarrassingly easy, or just there be fewer relevant gameplay features given the presence of non-dwarves? I guess what I'm trying to say is, are the more magical generated worlds going to be free to be game-breakingly strange, or will there be focus on making a game loop resistant to some of the wild aspects coming with the magic release?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8194754#msg8194754
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8194822#msg8194822
1. Yeah, as reported in the comments, new playable critters are definitely a part of the magic release, especially when you crank the settings up for it. There might not even be dwarves (or humans) in such places.
2. Yeah, we'll obviously need some additional art for e.g. magic etc. and Mike and Meph are working through the power of Kitfox, because one of the main points of the whole arrangement was that I have no idea how to do the paperwork, so Kitfox will still be in the picture as we go forward. (of course I also speak and work with the artists directly.)
3. We'd like to enforce whatever verisimulitude we can, and the hope is that "places people have chosen to live and work for a period of time" still remain a kind of relevant thing. Even in generated settings with e.g. free teleport, this seems possible, if people want to remain social or have infrastructure needs. But yeah, it's quite possible when the settings are cranked to heavy degrees that things may end up very far afield. This is also exciting to me. But we'll see if it was a terrible idea, ha ha. We have some vaguely conflicting notions about allowing magical consequences to go their way vs. balancing things out -- stuff like powerful enemies with a pass-wall/teleport ability in the context of a/the fort need to be considered one way or another. Ideally, this involves both pushback against these forces throughout worldgen and in the tools available, or the result that forts aren't really forts so much, rather than hidden sanctuaries -- there's this way that magical effects and cultural developments go together that we're hoping to explore and systematize in whatever way we can. But we have plenty of escape hatches if we don't pull certain parts of it off initially.
Quote from: voliol
1. At the top of the devlog pages of past years, e.g. http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2017.html, why "Development in 2015 (RSS Feed)"?
2. Could you set up redirects between "http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#year-date" and "http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_year.html#year-date" for applicable years/dates? Lots of "old" links (2015-2019 I believe) were broken by the remodeling, and it by the look of it all links to 2020-logs i.e. "http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2020-date" will break at the end of the year as well.
1. Just forgot to update the text.
2. I have no idea how to set up redirects (any we currently have were done by other people.) I had to break up the page because the bandwidth gets to be too much when years of dev log are on the main page, but the structure is not good, yeah.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
I vaguely remember the idea of introducing larger machinery to fort mode being discussed before, possibly going as far as having moving forts. Would the map rewrite make such things possible? I remember the idea being floated of being able to view squads going off map on missions in a little window. Is that possibility a planned feature for the map rewrite? Would that also make ships that come and go a possibility, or will that have to wait until trade and industry?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8194931#msg8194931
Yeah, PatrikLundell is correct - the map rewrite enables these things, and then we'll see what we get, with most coming later. If the map window support turns out to work smoothly, we may get some initial examples of those, and some initial examples of moving terrain the same way.
Quote from: Beag
1. How will naked creatures be handled in the steam release?(I have unfortunately run into some naked people in taverns)
2. Sometime in the next few months can we see some screenshots of animal people and escaped necromancer experiments?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195047#msg8195047
1. This is subject to change, but we're in the middle of our first real pass on dwarves, and currently they have muted skimpy undergarments when they have no clothes, whereas the clothing itself is more apparent if they actually have some. This of course puts us at a disadvantage when it comes to thongs -- right now I don't think the bethonged are displayed differently from the naked. There's of course a whole other set of concerns with profession colors vs. dyes vs. naked dwarves, etc. etc. and we're just going to end up with some options there and try to go with some sensible default, though I know opinions are really varied here.
2. When things are ready, we'll show them -- we have some initial animal people almost ready, but have some work to do on held items that is being done along with the first dwarf pass. Yeah, it was night trolls before. The other procedural critters are still underway.
Quote from: Lenin0Grib
Can you talk please how tiles works in steam version now? I mean render and data structure. In each Z layer it have now many tile layers or some other trick?
And if it possible make in future make open data file for community localisation in other lenguages?
delphonso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195484#msg8195484
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195501#msg8195501
Yeah, I'm not sure what you mean exactly -- hopefully Meph's thread linked in the comment there helps. There are many tile layers printed in each cell for sure now, yeah. The background grass/etc., then maybe another bit there, then lots of edging potentially (from neighboring grass etc.), then a building layer, an item, vermin, creatures, another building layer, *another* building layer, and an interface layer. And likely others with fluids/trees/shadows etc. I missed. Things like ramps are often baked into single tiles from several images out in the art files. Dwarves and procedural creatures and a few others are baked from many images, but then displayed as a single tile layer.
Yeah, I have no idea how to localize fully it without having somebody for each language come on to the project or something, since there's so much in code, which we don't have the ability to do. There may be some partial solutions. All the new tooltips for example would be fine just sitting out in a file. I'm not sure if that and some other steps are enough to be useful.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 01, 2020, 08:12:21 am
Have you heard of GNU Gettext. From what I can tell it's included in the GNU standard C library and provides a mechanism whereby the developer (primarily by using functions that are basically extended versions of printf, sprintf, et.al.) adds support for internationalization, and then the actual work of translation can be done by someone else* (with translation packs also being able to be distributed separately).
*technically, if the developer has added support for internationalization properly, the translators don't have to coordinate with the developer (or even let the developer know what they are doing). This leads to the possibility of community supported translation in which someone in the forums just up and decides to start a translation. From this point translations essentially become another form of modding (and could possibly have their own sub-forum under "DF Modding").
Anyways, that's my understanding from skimming through the Gettext section of the Glibc info file. I could, of course, be wrong about some/all of the above.
Post by: DG on October 01, 2020, 08:43:22 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 01, 2020, 09:07:49 am
As far as I can see, the description of where (buggy) equipment is drawn from is called df.global.ui.equipment in DFHack. With a bit of luck this info will allow the DFHack community to apply a band aid when damage is detected, and maybe even allow the detection of when corruption happens (which I would assume would help in finding the various causes of it).
Edit: My first identification was wrong.
Post by: ror6ax on October 01, 2020, 09:19:49 am
Post by: Egan_BW on October 01, 2020, 09:30:16 am
Post by: Uthimienure on October 01, 2020, 10:28:39 am
You know you're old when the idea of updates to the status quo make you anxious. I'll stay positive and hope the things I like about the current ui are retained somewhere. I had no idea numpads were disappearing.Disappearing from computers, or from the game?
I doubt Toady would leave numpad users stranded.
But if the mouse becomes *required*, I will vomit.
Post by: voliol on October 01, 2020, 10:35:40 am
You know you're old when the idea of updates to the status quo make you anxious. I'll stay positive and hope the things I like about the current ui are retained somewhere. I had no idea numpads were disappearing.They are, at least on laptops. When I bought a new laptop earlier this year only one model within my price range had one... ultimately the one I bought too, but it is very wide due to the numpad so I can see why people chose to buy others, without numpads. Those attachable USB-numpads do exist as a separate purchase for that reason, but the fact that they are separate still means most people won't own one.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 01, 2020, 11:45:49 am
Note that while using icons allow you to cram more of them into a line/column than text would allow, it also allows you to violate the 7+/-2 rule of number of items people can keep track of.
Also, icons without any other explanation than mouse over tool tips are really bad for newbies, as the UI just presents a lot of incomprehensible icons that you'll have to gradually connect to the functionality you don't yet know anything about, so in addition to try to learn the functionality, you also have to learn which icon it's represented by, meaning the beginning will require a lot of mouse overing.
Then try to implement this in Classic: Just the key bindings displayed, but you'd need to activate the tool tips to find out what every single binding actually does.
Just as a thought experiment, think of the embark screen with only creature/item icons and no description of what the icons represent, just tool tips. An extreme case, but it should illustrate the problem.
Summary: Use additional text to indicate what icons/key bindings do and have tool tips provide an expansion of that, not a replacement.
Post by: Mim on October 01, 2020, 10:40:58 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 01, 2020, 11:03:48 pm
Concerning internationalization:The issue isn't translation.
Have you heard of GNU Gettext. From what I can tell it's included in the GNU standard C library and provides a mechanism whereby the developer (primarily by using functions that are basically extended versions of printf, sprintf, et.al.) adds support for internationalization, and then the actual work of translation can be done by someone else* (with translation packs also being able to be distributed separately).
*technically, if the developer has added support for internationalization properly, the translators don't have to coordinate with the developer (or even let the developer know what they are doing). This leads to the possibility of community supported translation in which someone in the forums just up and decides to start a translation. From this point translations essentially become another form of modding (and could possibly have their own sub-forum under "DF Modding").
Anyways, that's my understanding from skimming through the Gettext section of the Glibc info file. I could, of course, be wrong about some/all of the above.
It's procedurally generated text. Which means it needs to be coded, not translated. It literally uses the grammar rules of English to produce text. To make the game do something else requires new code, and the game isn't Open Source, so that's not happening.
As Toady said, the tooltips and fixed text can all be open. Which is nice. But that won't help you Localize the game.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 02, 2020, 02:10:18 am
Concerning internationalization:The issue isn't translation.
Have you heard of GNU Gettext. From what I can tell it's included in the GNU standard C library and provides a mechanism whereby the developer (primarily by using functions that are basically extended versions of printf, sprintf, et.al.) adds support for internationalization, and then the actual work of translation can be done by someone else* (with translation packs also being able to be distributed separately).
*technically, if the developer has added support for internationalization properly, the translators don't have to coordinate with the developer (or even let the developer know what they are doing). This leads to the possibility of community supported translation in which someone in the forums just up and decides to start a translation. From this point translations essentially become another form of modding (and could possibly have their own sub-forum under "DF Modding").
Anyways, that's my understanding from skimming through the Gettext section of the Glibc info file. I could, of course, be wrong about some/all of the above.
It's procedurally generated text. Which means it needs to be coded, not translated. It literally uses the grammar rules of English to produce text. To make the game do something else requires new code, and the game isn't Open Source, so that's not happening.
As Toady said, the tooltips and fixed text can all be open. Which is nice. But that won't help you Localize the game.
Looking at the matter again, wikipedia says that GNU gettext isn't the only implementation of gettext. So perhaps he could find an implementation to his liking. Also, there are other tools available (I suggested gettext because it was available on a wide range of systems).
As for the procedurally generated text, it depends on how it's coded.
If he uses printf (, or sprintf) with %s's for "fill-in-the-blank", e.g. something like:
std::cout << sprintf("%s, %s, cancels mood: Insane.\n", getName(dwarfId), getProfession(dwarfID));
then it could work.
If, on the other hand, he does it by just concatenating strings together one-by-one then it probably wouldn't work.
Edit:
He's, also, already linking the linux version to glibc, which (like gettext's libintl and libasprintf -the only gettext libraries he'd actually need to link to- ) is under the LGPL.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 02, 2020, 03:02:20 am
Worldgen produces a mountain range called "The Mountains of Slaying". OK so fans using whatever system you're talking about quickly translate mountains and slaying in the word lists. But:
1) We need the code to tell the program to drop "the".
2 We need the code to tell the program to swap mountains and slaying into "slaying mountains".
3) We need the code to drop "of" in some cases, but not always.
None of that is "fan inputted translation". It's code that tells the game to obey the grammatical rules of Japanese (in my example, the very easiest ones). That code isn't in the game. That code won't be added by fans to the game.
Not saying it's impossible, but it requires Toady to write an engine in which fans can input their own languages' grammatical rules in addition to words. And, well, quick glance of Google Translate shows that they can't do it properly yet so expecting Toady and some Dwarf Fortress fans to whip up something in their "spare time" is pretty optimistic.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 02, 2020, 03:12:29 am
If key bindings are not going to be displayed by the UI except through tool tips, I'd suggest an in game toggle that switches between using icons and key bindings, If the default character tile set is used, it would do nothing (probably greyed out).
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 02, 2020, 03:55:14 am
Let's take an example, say, Japanese.
Worldgen produces a mountain range called "The Mountains of Slaying". OK so fans using whatever system you're talking about quickly translate mountains and slaying in the word lists. But:
1) We need the code to tell the program to drop "the".
2 We need the code to tell the program to swap mountains and slaying into "slaying mountains".
3) We need the code to drop "of" in some cases, but not always.
None of that is "fan inputted translation". It's code that tells the game to obey the grammatical rules of Japanese (in my example, the very easiest ones). That code isn't in the game. That code won't be added by fans to the game.
Not saying it's impossible, but it requires Toady to write an engine in which fans can input their own languages' grammatical rules in addition to words. And, well, quick glance of Google Translate shows that they can't do it properly yet so expecting Toady and some Dwarf Fortress fans to whip up something in their "spare time" is pretty optimistic.
Gettext works similar to printf. The main difference is the difference is that while,
printf("The %s of %s\n", "Mountains", "Slaying");
prints:
The Mountains of Slaying
gettext("The %1$s of %2$s\n", "Mountains", "Slaying");
will (depending on system settings) look for "The %1$s of %2$s\n" in a message catalog and replace it with a suitable translation.
For example, the message catalog could contain the following two lines:
msgid "The %1$s of %2$s\n"
msgid "%2$sの%1$s\n"
gettext would simply replace the first line with the second resulting in:
SlayingのMountains
As you can see, gettext is definitally capable of doing things like "dropping the 'the'" and rearranging words. There's also the ngettext function that deals with plurals.
This also demonstrates one potential drawback:
It would only translate strings that were included directly into the game (i.e. in the source code). Something else would need to be done for strings that are sourced from the raws. I would suggest creating a new type of raw entry that would contain a translation of (one or more) string(s) from elsewhere in the raws.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 02, 2020, 04:21:05 am
Post by: voliol on October 02, 2020, 07:38:00 am
Still not seeing the "translators simply enter the translation" easy localization system. Just some code you've made. You expect translators to enter code for every variation on a sentence that could be generated?The "message catalog" A_Curious_Cat is talking about is something akin to a raw file. People already edit those, and they're not really "code" per-say.
It would also greatly surprise me if Dwarf Fortress generated sentenced according to English grammar, as that would be a pain to code compared to using a bunch of templates, that Tarn (being a grammatically superior human being) can manually "generate" in grammatically correct English. One such template would be "The %1$s %2$s the %3$s in the %4$s %5$s[1]!" that, along with its siblings
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Having written all that, I realize the problem lies in whatever words fill the templates, as some languages will be expecting versions of the word that simply isn't available, say an object/subject distinction for the noun "you", or for a raw creature, and this isn't really something you can go by by just rearranging words or changing what's in between them. Or another case form, or a definite form (instead of "the") etc. etc. I was going to bring up some examples of successful fan translations into English (i.e. Mother III), but English is a inflection-light language, which makes it a very friendly language to translate into using templates. Doing the reverse, translating from the syntax-heavy/inflection-light English into a more inflection-heavy language (say, German, Japanese is surprisingly inflection-light regarding the critical nouns and pronouns) ought to be way harder. You might be right after all.
[1] %5$ is whatever comes after the main attack, be it blocking, bones bruising or lightly tapping the target. As it is a subordinate clause, and afaik all languages have them, it can be dealt with separately (using similar templates) and then pasted into the final string.
Post by: squamous on October 02, 2020, 06:10:10 pm
Post by: Lenin0Grib on October 03, 2020, 12:09:19 am
In Russian community we have translation of dwarf fortress in russian. But how I understand it was very difficult for translate(mean hack code for translate). It not grammary correct, but it help easy for understand many texts in game. And if it will be possible to translate not harcode blocks of text like mode. For exmaple
names
Urist = Урист
Likot = Ликот
Ubendeb = Убендеб
Hide dead come ! = Прячьтесь, мертвые идут!
end ect.
(https://www.dfwk.ru/images/3/35/Tfn6TDVX.png)
So it no so imposible like you think. Yes it not correct grammaticly, but it possible.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 03, 2020, 12:21:41 am
Regarding something like the semi-procedural dragon-generating system that's been discussed as a potential thing that could happen in the future, will that be available in the raws for modders?The intention is to have, as far as possible, everything like this in the raws eventually.
Of course, "eventually" could be decades from now, so probably "Maybe, sounds good" is the best answer you can hope for right now.
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on October 03, 2020, 12:51:23 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on October 03, 2020, 12:54:18 pm
Post by: Criperum on October 03, 2020, 02:16:57 pm
Thanks Toady for answer.If it's grammatically incorrect then it's not localized properly. Also you've chosen quite simple examples. How about the fact that to make the word localized properly in russian you need to know the gender of this word. Also all adjectives related to this word has to know the gender and some verbs also. And i'm not talking about cases. And other languages hvave completely different issues that also has to be handled. That's why it is low priority. After all we have google translate that uses huge amount of resources and smart people to work and still the result is desired to be much better.
In Russian community we have translation of dwarf fortress in russian. But how I understand it was very difficult for translate(mean hack code for translate). It not grammary correct, but it help easy for understand many texts in game. And if it will be possible to translate not harcode blocks of text like mode. For exmaple
names
Urist = Урист
Likot = Ликот
Ubendeb = Убендеб
Hide dead come ! = Прячьтесь, мертвые идут!
end ect.
(https://www.dfwk.ru/images/3/35/Tfn6TDVX.png)
So it no so imposible like you think. Yes it not correct grammaticly, but it possible.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 04, 2020, 03:30:45 am
When will be update 47.05?That's a question that won't get an answer. DF releases are made when they're done.
There are essentially two possible scenarios:
1. There won't be any more 0.47.X releases. Instead the next release will be the Premium one, which probably would be called 0.48.01 (or 48.01), as it contains major UI differences compared to the current release, and thus really need a higher major number, even if the contents according to the naming rules still only really qualify it for the 0.47.X. Toady has done the unusual thing to say that he aims for that to happen before the end of the year.
2. Toady tests out the parallel development process and produces 0.47.05 to get some wider feedback on stress adjustments, possibly with some needs tweaks as well. If that happens it probably couldn't be later than the beginning of December in order to get and process feedback into the Premium release. It would have to happen earlier than that if the process should allow for another iteration.
Post by: clinodev on October 04, 2020, 06:55:27 am
When will be update 47.05?That's a question that won't get an answer. DF releases are made when they're done.
There are essentially two possible scenarios:
1. There won't be any more 0.47.X releases. Instead the next release will be the Premium one, which probably would be called 0.48.01 (or 48.01), as it contains major UI differences compared to the current release, and thus really need a higher major number, even if the contents according to the naming rules still only really qualify it for the 0.47.X. Toady has done the unusual thing to say that he aims for that to happen before the end of the year.
2. Toady tests out the parallel development process and produces 0.47.05 to get some wider feedback on stress adjustments, possibly with some needs tweaks as well. If that happens it probably couldn't be later than the beginning of December in order to get and process feedback into the Premium release. It would have to happen earlier than that if the process should allow for another iteration.
Tanya X. Short of Kitfox recently confirmed that "the next major "update" is indeed the first Steam release." (https://steamcommunity.com/app/975370/discussions/0/2943622078764799353/), if that's any help. I admit I'm hoping for something more like your #2. I know from recent interviews that Tarn is fully cognizant that the need to provide a functional game is higher than ever, and I'm hopeful all parties realize that if the outcry for stress changes has died off, it's primarily because many players have quit playing for now in hopes of a refined Premium release.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 04, 2020, 08:25:37 am
The reason for the posting about stress has died down could also be caused both by people having said what they have to say and gotten tired of repeating the same thing over and over, as well as Threetoe's thread being a very clear indication that they intend to address the issue before the Premium release.
Post by: ror6ax on October 05, 2020, 03:26:46 am
Quote
Toady has done the unusual thing to say that he aims for that to happen before the end of the year.
Wait, did he really say this? I was mentally preparing for next year's summer...
Post by: Bumber on October 05, 2020, 03:45:51 am
QuoteToady has done the unusual thing to say that he aims for that to happen before the end of the year.
Wait, did he really say this? I was mentally preparing for next year's summer...
You have to convert that from Bay12 time, so I'm sure you're not far off.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 05, 2020, 03:46:37 am
What Steam? No. He said "there's a deadline to finish the work, and it's not this year". So it's next year, or later. And then he said how important it is to keep to deadlines. Followed by Tanya at Kitfox making hasty statements during Pax, that she's not pressuring Tarn at all and they can be flexible. So...a while yet. Hopefully see a stress tweak before the end of the year though.QuoteToady has done the unusual thing to say that he aims for that to happen before the end of the year.
Wait, did he really say this? I was mentally preparing for next year's summer...
Toady (Sep 1st Fotf):
Quote
...there is a deadline (it isn't this year, and I don't want to get into it specifically since it's not the same as a release date. We do not have a release date.)
Post by: ror6ax on October 05, 2020, 04:00:14 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 05, 2020, 04:20:40 am
Yeah that is what I remember, hence my surprise at aiming to do *anything* before *any date*.Funnily enough, that was a reply to PatrikLundell's own question as I recall...
Post by: clinodev on October 05, 2020, 06:48:24 am
A #2 wouldn't be a major release, so it wouldn't contradict Tanya's statement.
I took her statement as a reply to my comment: "There was a hint early in the year they might do another Standard release before Premium is released, but who knows." which is quoted in the reply she directly answers. Definitely a matter of interpretation.
Quote
The reason for the posting about stress has died down could also be caused both by people having said what they have to say and gotten tired of repeating the same thing over and over, as well as Threetoe's thread being a very clear indication that they intend to address the issue before the Premium release.
That's a perfectly reasonable supposition from the point of view of the Bay 12 Forums, where people who are waiting for stress fixes are likely to peek in occasionally at the most recent Dev Log, see there's been no release, and and go about their lives for another month. Redditors, however, use reddit for other things, and because we post all the official news, are likely to see something come across their feed while looking at cat pics or whatever. "I've played for years but can't handle stress, so I'm waiting for Premium," is a comment I see about as often as "I want to learn, but I'm waiting for the Steam release," which is to say, both unfortunately very frequently.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on October 05, 2020, 07:37:41 am
"I've played for years but can't handle stress, so I'm waiting for Premium," is a comment I see about as often as "I want to learn, but I'm waiting for the Steam release," which is to say, both unfortunately very frequently.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why would there be anything wrong with those comments?
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 05, 2020, 07:55:09 am
I'm not sure where I saw/heard Toady saying he definitely wanted DF Premium out this year, but it was probably one of the interviews (and I only know about ones linked from this forum, either linked by Toady or someone else).
I'm hoping for #2, but I definitely consider it the least likely alternative, in particular as it's something that can be cut without an immediate visible impact ("just" worse balance at release).
There's nothing wrong in those comments, as they're valid sentiments from players. The thing that's wrong/bad is that there's a very valid cause for them: The stress (in)balance is an issue, and it won't go away by itself, but has to be addressed, either sooner or too late (if the Premium release doesn't address it it's going to hurt DF badly. There's only one chance for a first impression, and patch releases can do provide some limited damage control). The comment was made to counter a comment by someone that the number of complaints about the balance has (or may seem to have) diminished over time."I've played for years but can't handle stress, so I'm waiting for Premium," is a comment I see about as often as "I want to learn, but I'm waiting for the Steam release," which is to say, both unfortunately very frequently.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why would there be anything wrong with those comments?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 05, 2020, 04:22:58 pm
Quote
I'm not sure where I saw/heard Toady saying he definitely wanted DF Premium out this year, but it was probably one of the interviews (and I only know about ones linked from this forum, either linked by Toady or someone else).Toady gave a very clear answer (as far as he was able) when we brought it up in Future of the Fortress last month. Which he then confirmed again at Pax. Steam is not due out this year.
Post by: Su on October 06, 2020, 06:54:43 am
apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere.
Post by: DG on October 06, 2020, 07:19:23 am
in every demonstration i've seen of the new guis, all the interactions have been made with the mouse. currently, i play with the mouse completely disabled via the init files - will the new graphical interfaces [which are looking very very pretty, by the way!] be usable with just my keyboard?
apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere.
Yeah, I had the same concerns and asked about it not too far back.
QuoteQuote from: Shonai_DwellerAre the icons sliders and other graphical parts of the interface that you're adding locked to the official tileset? I'm just wondering how the new interface will work for anyone who doesn't buy the Steam version. Or indeed in Steam's curses tileset, is that Curses plus graphical icons? Different icons to match the ASCII style? Presumably all the new rectangle drawing tools and such will be fully functional?Quote from: DGAre all new UI elements and any changes to current ones supporting keyboard only input?
They are locked, insofar as everything else is - it's set up currently as the creature graphics have been, where you link up images with text files and so forth, and the fancy image sets aren't going to be in DF Classic (which is likely what the Steam curses version will be, same as the free one.) That does leave us the question of what DF Classic is, when we've been aiming for "no graphics but as many of the interface improvements as possible." We'll very soon reach a point where the changes will require some sort of substitute. Whether those are literal text buttons (with line outlines and ASCII symbols inside), or something else, is yet to be seen. The way the interface currently works where it still respects the old grid somewhat (rather than the new graphical layer, which doesn't respect the old grid, other than being a grid at all) makes it much easier to handle ASCII parallel work on an ongoing basis.
Yeah, the continuing plan, which seems feasible thus far, is to maintain keyboard alternatives everywhere. There are some questions here and there about how some nested widget might work, if various little tick boxes end up being convenient, and so forth, but having quick key/sequence methods is important.
Post by: Lemming Dwarf on October 10, 2020, 06:58:19 am
Since the UI is getting a touch up (and by extension the menu) are you planning on moving settings currently found in init.txt and d_init.txt into a "settings" menu so they can be tweaked in-game(if changes to the settings in-game is even possible)?
Next up I have a suggestion (apologies as it is not really an educated one and more just me spitballing after reading the recent post)
have you considered re-scaling and repositioning clothing (and whatever other overlays) based on the animals persons size?
Thanks for your time!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 10, 2020, 07:15:10 am
Sorry in advance if this question has already been asked.Toady mentioned needing to do a settings menu in DFTalk yesterday. Take a listen!
Since the UI is getting a touch up (and by extension the menu) are you planning on moving settings currently found in init.txt and d_init.txt into a "settings" menu so they can be tweaked in-game(if changes to the settings in-game is even possible)?
Next up I have a suggestion (apologies as it is not really an educated one and more just me spitballing after reading the recent post)
have you considered re-scaling and repositioning clothing (and whatever other overlays) based on the animals persons size?
Thanks for your time!
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf//index.php?topic=177366.0
Post by: Schmaven on October 13, 2020, 06:38:18 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 13, 2020, 06:56:51 pm
Will the Itch.io/Steam version of Dwarf Fortress include a way for players to see individual dwarves' stress levels? The happiness counter that is a part of DFHack is incredibly useful to see fortress wide how the stress situation is. So I am very happy to see that in the Autumn Dev Update video :) I find it also very helpful to be able to see not just how many dwarves are unhappy, but which ones are at what level of unhappiness so I can spoil them with extra furniture made from their favorite stone, arrange a stockpile in their room of their favorite food and drink, misting them with waterfalls, etc., and cheer them up back from the precipice of insanity.Probably better as a suggestion. But, I guess most things are when asking about the UI as we don't know much about it.
Would hate this personally unless it were solely part of some debug mode. I can see why some people might want it as the current stress system requires very early action so every digit counts, but would much rather see the stress system fixed instead. To have to monitor numbers like some spacecraft simulator just kills the atmosphere for me.
Post by: Schmaven on October 14, 2020, 02:49:53 am
Post by: voliol on October 14, 2020, 05:09:29 am
Not numbers, just the same 7 smiley / frowny face types from the UI but for each dwarf. That would be my suggestion, but I'm more curious as to if the individual stress condition of the dwarves is accounted for. I suppose it does border on suggestion territory.
So a big spreadsheet/list of smilies, akin to what the health screen is to wound descriptions? That comparison having been made, it would be strange if the mental health/stress screen doesn’t require some sort of ”noble” when the physical health screen does. The already designated consolers (expedition leaders/priests I believe?) perhaps?
Post by: Schmaven on October 14, 2020, 07:19:23 am
Post by: falcc on October 15, 2020, 10:39:21 pm
2) If you make enough sweet, sweet, steam money will you keep the graphics artists working on to expand the graphics that make it into the steam release? For example making more complicated animal people images, more available parts for generated creatures, or making cool effects for magic?
3) You talked about improving military commands in the near future, as well as enemy armies doing things like building humiliating statues at your fort. Do you have any plans for armies to show up only planning to capture the single well-armed squad you send out to face them? How about having night trolls showing up to fulfill their kidnapping desires?
Post by: madpathmoth on October 15, 2020, 11:04:31 pm
Post by: ror6ax on October 18, 2020, 09:07:13 am
Post by: voliol on October 18, 2020, 10:05:34 am
So far, there's only one type of attack and it is only per one creature, AFAIK. Caves of Qud has swipes, jabs, hook-and-grabs, dismembering, bloodletting etc. Shooting enemies with crossbows also may have variations - pinning, blinding, kicking back, suppressing return fire, etc. Would something like this be present in DF? Would you make such "abilities" tied to level of weapon mastery or would it be some other skill tree of sorts?
Dwarf Fortress has blunt attacks, sharp attacks, projectile attacks, grabs, throws, choking, gouging, shaking enemies by your teeth, and firebreathing, at the very least. Most of these can also have various properties and creatures can definitely use more that one type.
This will be expanded upon sometime, though, according to the development page (http://):
Quote
- Combat flow
- Notion of stance/guard, with varying bonuses/penalties
- Ability to jump up on and ride opponents if they are large enough (can happen to you too of course)
- Not being able to hit a giant in the head, hitting a dragon in the head as a reaction when it attempts to bite
- Notion of overall wrestling position (who is on top of or controlling whom, etc.)
- Combat styles
- Combat styles involving weapons or natural attacks with associated stances and moves
- Ability to learn moves, etc. from others with whom you have a high enough reputation
- Certain moves may only be available as specific counters, while others might just be regular attacks
- Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled
Post by: madpathmoth on October 18, 2020, 10:06:47 am
So far, there's only one type of attack and it is only per one creature, AFAIK.
That's not accurate. Even an untrained dwarf can make light, normal, heavy, wild, or precise attacks with their fists, nails, and teeth. There's also wresting, which has pinches, joint locks and strangleholds. Weapons usually have multiple types of attack options, and things like blinding, dismemberment, and bleeding are all direct repercussions of damage. If you want to make something bleed, you don't need a special attack for it. Aim for a part that bleeds; use a weapon that cuts and swing hard at a spot not well armored.
Post by: ror6ax on October 19, 2020, 06:05:56 am
Post by: delphonso on October 19, 2020, 07:29:26 am
Wow. I've attempted playing adventurer a couple of times but I was not aware of any of this. I thought combat is simply "arrowing" into an enemy.
press 'shift+a' to open the attack menu - tons of options. Your statement is valuable, though - as you're certainly not the only person who missed the very complex combat system in DF. Hopefully the new UI will highlight this stuff easier.
Post by: Bumber on October 19, 2020, 02:45:47 pm
Wow. I've attempted playing adventurer a couple of times but I was not aware of any of this. I thought combat is simply "arrowing" into an enemy.
press 'a' to open the attack menu - tons of options. Your statement is valuable, though - as you're certainly not the only person who missed the very complex combat system in DF. Hopefully the new UI will highlight this stuff easier.
It's Shift+A by default.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 19, 2020, 03:01:05 pm
Post by: delphonso on October 19, 2020, 05:49:51 pm
It's Shift+A by default.
Good catch - edited my post.
Post by: ror6ax on October 20, 2020, 06:52:12 am
Post by: LordBaal on October 20, 2020, 07:03:36 am
Adventure mode feels like a broken game - and this is coming from a fan of "walking simulators"!Shhhhhhs kid! Don't conjure terrible, dark and ancient forces upon youself!
Post by: ror6ax on October 20, 2020, 07:55:07 am
Post by: Schmaven on October 20, 2020, 09:05:43 am
Adventure mode feels like a broken game - and this is coming from a fan of "walking simulators"!
It feels about 53% or so incomplete to me.
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on October 20, 2020, 09:40:07 am
Post by: Eric Blank on October 20, 2020, 10:33:49 am
Post by: Rose on October 22, 2020, 10:34:50 am
I want true multicultural forts.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 23, 2020, 03:04:22 am
One way would be to have it open a sub menu where you select the size(s) you want, with quick options for dwarves and current fort resident races (preferably including members currently out on a raid), that can then be further modified to e.g. add the humans you plan/hope to get, as well as inversions (so you can set up stockpiles for the junk you want to get rid of).
Post by: Buttery_Mess on October 30, 2020, 06:21:30 am
Sorry if this comes across suggesty, I was just wondering if it might be in the cards.
Post by: eightball8776 on October 30, 2020, 10:43:39 am
2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on October 30, 2020, 11:00:50 am
1. With all of the creation myth features being planned, are apocalypses and the end of the world something you have considered adding? If so, how do you envision them working? Would they just end the game or would they be something you can play during or even after?
2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?
If you want some info on some of their thoughts on apocalyptic events I recommend Threetoes Tales Foretold stories, specifically the first one (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_tales_foretold.html), as it tells of a world having suffered 2 apocalyptic events which majorly changed how magic and the divine worked, and a creature looking to bring on a third so as to make himself the sole god (if I remember correctly). The analysis at the end gives a nice mechanical summary as well:
Quote
One of the aspects of this universe that we wanted to emphasize was the passage between the ages, which is more prominent here than in the last story involving magic (see that story's analysis for more on magic systems and metaphysics, as well as the dev page). There aren't always discrete boundaries -- much like the current DF, the world's balance can change slowly as magical creatures are killed, for example, or as rifts are shut in a multiple-rift/portal apocalypse scenario. Those apocalypse scenarios themselves, on the other hand, set a clear era boundary. The Tales Foretold setting had eight named periods involving two apocalyptic events, and several gradual changes. Sometimes the gradual changes don't involve the fading of magical forces, but rather their growth/flowering through a period of research and stability to the point where the name of the era justifiably changes. The Golden Age and Dulchari period of the Tales Foretold setting worked this way.
We'll save some of the details for a future story, but another aspect of this universe to emphasize is the interconnected mechanics like soul cradles, lines of fate, and material transmutation (in DF, this configuration would be a generated part of one universe). Magical research in the Tales Foretold system involved understanding these building blocks, and then merging them together in new ways. The access to new worlds caused by the first Nightmare Apocalypse allowed additional forms of magic to be incorporated into existing native systems, leading to the more complicated magic used by the Dulchari wizards. When Cenaster separated the world from other planes, certain forms of magic ceased to work, and it also changed the mechanics of the afterlife. In Dwarf Fortress, systematizing the way the basic metaphysical aspects of the world work will cause these effects to happen as consequences of these sorts of disasters, and ideally they'd also be able to adapt to player-led changes in the structure of the universe.
Edit: I think biomes changing through magic comes up in a few of the stories as well, can't remember the name atm, but there's one for example where iirc an exiled elf returns to the forest and desecrates the magical lake where the forest spirit lives, shifting the biome into an evil one.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 30, 2020, 11:19:10 am
1.Definitely.
:
2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?
The current spread of evil from certain kinds of demons and from necromancers is implemented as a hack in the current system, but sphere contests should shift boundaries, and events should allow new sphere influences to appear and disappear (and probably move as well).
The map rewrite should support these more fluid borders. An issue that has been brought up is what should happen with the flora and fauna on a change of an important influence. Fish dying off as the water disappear is easy, but if an ocean is created at the center of a continent, how would it be populated (magic is one way, of course, and we have real world natural experiments such as e.g. Surtsey)? It is, of course, possible to just say "biome X with properties A, B, and C just appeared. Roll up a random set of flora and fauna matching these parameters, i.e. essentially what current world gen does.
Post by: voliol on October 30, 2020, 12:45:28 pm
2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?
Quote from: MalroktheIIITime for my newest round of stupid, far off, likely already asked, questions for you!Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8157663#msg8157663
1:When you change world gen for the myth arc, what specific geographic features are you hoping for (either in general, or in particular)
2: With said new world gen, do you have any thoughts on how will biomes work? If you are planning a change on that front, what?
3: How long until you have working evolution (joke question, but still)
Bonus question: 1&2, but with alternate planes.
The first step with the map rewrite is to create a structure which will support what we want to do, whether that's with planes or real world land/waterforms, etc. In no particular order, one list we have is different distant/time scales, a general framework for world spanning features like rivers that will allow world trees or ley lines or tortoises or whatever), world edges, connectors like rainbow bridges/multiplanar rivers, multiple view ports, boats and moving map segments/shifting mazes, shadow/veil concepts, recursive/fractal/'levels of reality'/micro-macrocosm concepts, non-rectangular world shapes (giant pillar, tubes, giant pit, etc., though we likely won't attempt traditional spheres, as wrapping abilities are limited by the grid), better geological layers/intrusions/cliffs/eroded features, support for linkages between rivers/caves entrances/etc., support for small sites (logging camps, crossroad inns, etc.), support for nomadic groups sites (the current tents the armies use are horrible), ability to support world-spanning settlements, portals (various), faerie-type border zones, infinite worlds (not that there's memory for that, but the ability to reshift focus), liquid/air/etc. based worlds, auras/fields/mists/wtvr and restructure good/evil-type sphere links, compatability with astronomical or larger universe concepts, support for regional/world natural disasters and resulting map changes (and map repair like forest regrowth), places in the clouds, underground oceans and other improved underground linkages/structure/features, consider support for broader liquid/material types in terrain, large vortices/whirlwinds/etc., z-level buildings/doors/etc., merging/mixing planes, teleporting sites, illusions of various kinds (non-tactile, tactile but impermanent in some way.)
No way we're getting to all or even most of that on the first pass! But we're hoping to create a backbone that support it all. I also have a few other lists around that are mostly in that one up there, but I doubt that's everything.
Biomes relate to a lot of that, how they are contained or how they can change and bleed together, and what sort of ecological simming we can get away with. Ultimately we'll still need to have rainfall, temperature, drainage, present species, and that sort of thing, and the existing classifications aren't bad there.
The bolded parts are the most relevant to your question, but as questions about the map rewrite are common, I figured putting the entire quote here wouldn't hurt. Basically, yes, or at least there will be further support to make it easy-ish to add later. As there is already a decent system for biomes, and that evil levels can already be changed, I'd be surprised if Toady taking another look at it won't lead to some improvements.
Post by: Schmaven on October 30, 2020, 04:58:26 pm
"This pile has been set to accept only bronze armor, for example. Not just that, but it'll only accept bronze armor which can be worn by dwarves. If the armor with the X at the top is turned on, it would also accept bronze armor for humans, which might show up in an invasion. This allows you to separate out junk, for example, so you can melt it down more easily. Note also that you can rule objects in and out by type, by quality, and so on."
I like the idea of being able to separate out junk for easier melting / trading away. Worn clothing also tends to accumulate fairly quickly.
What other criteria might be available to sort items by in stockpiles?
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 31, 2020, 03:17:42 am
From the bottom of the October 22nd steam update: https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/975370?emclan=103582791464215078&emgid=2930114451182913855 (https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/975370?emclan=103582791464215078&emgid=2930114451182913855),Well, yes, my interpretation of that is that that image allowed you to sort according to dwarf size armor and non dwarf size armor, with humans just being an example. With that interpretation, the non dwarf size armor setting would also receive the useless troll sized and ogre sized junk. Hence the need for more granularity.
"This pile has been set to accept only bronze armor, for example. Not just that, but it'll only accept bronze armor which can be worn by dwarves. If the armor with the X at the top is turned on, it would also accept bronze armor for humans, which might show up in an invasion. This allows you to separate out junk, for example, so you can melt it down more easily. Note also that you can rule objects in and out by type, by quality, and so on."
I like the idea of being able to separate out junk for easier melting / trading away. Worn clothing also tends to accumulate fairly quickly.
What other criteria might be available to sort items by in stockpiles?
Post by: LordBaal on October 31, 2020, 08:28:04 am
This got me thinking, once economy is started again, a single trade depot would work? What about having several "depots" at once, each dedicated to specific goods or trade partners, different sizes and whatnot. Or having a single huge market area for everyone, external an internal traders?
Sorry if it derived towards a suggestion, the main question is still adecuate I think.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 31, 2020, 11:54:08 am
Does are any plans of making trade depots an "area" like worshops in the future?DF currently has trouble with multiple trade depots (although that can very well have been fixed before that far off future event). Dedications to trade goods makes sense only if caravans are dedicated, although market places could be dedicated while caravans still visited the depot. However, I don't know what use a market place would be of in a fortress, unless dorf actually earn money (in whatever form) and have to spend it to get things (unless it's a fortress assigned military uniform, or tool). Multiple markets seem to be a recipe for wasting a lot of space, though.
This got me thinking, once economy is started again, a single trade depot would work? What about having several "depots" at once, each dedicated to specific goods or trade partners, different sizes and whatnot. Or having a single huge market area for everyone, external an internal traders?
Sorry if it derived towards a suggestion, the main question is still adecuate I think.
It can be noted that the trade depot as zone is incompatible with the current stockpile system, as all the junk brought in by caravans would need an enormous amount of space to be placed according to the stockpile rules of one stack/container per tile, so doing away with the magical quantum stockpiling trade depot would open up a number of issues.
Post by: LordBaal on October 31, 2020, 01:06:24 pm
Even in an scenario were you have but soldiers like a strictly military outpost they would probably need payment and spend some of it on a local tavern or a nearby place outside your map whenever on a leave (if such thing is implemented)?
In a civil or mixed fortress it would necessarily need either market (be it zones were the sellers erect selling stands or dedicated workshops), trade depots or perhaps buying directly from stockpiles or producing workshops. While differentiation on the "government" and private industry, if such thing as private industry is implemented is due for the tax part. At any rate this is devolving much from the original spirit of my question. Since workshops are to be "zonified" in the nebulous future, I wonder if this would be done for trade depots too.
Post by: Beag on October 31, 2020, 07:17:20 pm
Post by: Toady One on November 01, 2020, 04:38:54 pm
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Concerning internationalization:
Have you heard of GNU Gettext. From what I can tell it's included in the GNU standard C library and provides a mechanism whereby the developer (primarily by using functions that are basically extended versions of printf, sprintf, et.al.) adds support for internationalization, and then the actual work of translation can be done by someone else* (with translation packs also being able to be distributed separately).
*technically, if the developer has added support for internationalization properly, the translators don't have to coordinate with the developer (or even let the developer know what they are doing). This leads to the possibility of community supported translation in which someone in the forums just up and decides to start a translation. From this point translations essentially become another form of modding (and could possibly have their own sub-forum under "DF Modding").
Anyways, that's my understanding from skimming through the Gettext section of the Glibc info file. I could, of course, be wrong about some/all of the above.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195817#msg8195817
A_Curious_Cat (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195867#msg8195867
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195887#msg8195887
A_Curious_Cat (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195906#msg8195906
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195913#msg8195913
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8195952#msg8195952
Yeah, it's just not set up that way. Pieces of strings get built up in a variety of ways all over the place. So far it seems like the only way we can get localization done is to bring people on board and figure out what sort of coding would need to happen.
Quote from: squamous
Regarding something like the semi-procedural dragon-generating system that's been discussed as a potential thing that could happen in the future, will that be available in the raws for modders?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8196344#msg8196344
Yeah, when we've brought that up as a potential idea, the purpose was two-fold. (1) having the ability for procgen creatures to follow tighter rails so that the result would in this case always be draconic in some sense, (2) not hide anything in code at all. Dragons are out in the raw files, and the plan was to add to that definition (and through the use of various helper raw definitions as usual), rather than lean directly on any of the non-txt forgotten beast etc. code. This of course makes it less flexible and more difficult, and as we see, it hasn't happened. But that's still the plan. The myth/magic release is almost certainly going to have something to say about dragons, and lots to say about procedural creatures, and lots of new moddability, and the thing that's still unclear is whether exactly this thing happens, or something else. All of the centaur/chimera problems are related, and presumably some framework change can scoop up a lot of this in one go.
Quote from: Iä! RIAKTOR!
When will be update 47.05?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8196489#msg8196489
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8196672#msg8196672
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8196704#msg8196704
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8196732#msg8196732
etc. (lots more posts about release date/contracts/branches)
Yeah, since the release window for the Premium release is indeed not this year or even early next year (as people have noted, lots of screens, lots to do, Steam Workshop etc.), I still have a hope to do a fixer-upper release for the currently released 47.04, because the main issues are going to need to be patched up before the Premium release anyway, whether that's new bugs or stress issues or longstanding bugs or what have you. The complication has been that I need to be working on the Premium release full-time, as the work with the artists is collaborative and I am often the blocker, needing to code their stuff up, and it's hard to take a whole big chunk of time away from that.
Quote from: Su
in every demonstration i've seen of the new guis, all the interactions have been made with the mouse. currently, i play with the mouse completely disabled via the init files - will the new graphical interfaces [which are looking very very pretty, by the way!] be usable with just my keyboard?
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8197475#msg8197475
Yeah, the situation remains unchanged from my reply to DG. The plan is to support a non-mouse approach. There are some complications to this, but it seems feasible given that DF has managed it (in whatever inglorious fashion) to this point. Seems likely we'll just need to support multiple interface setups now, for the numpadless WASD people, to the mouseless-by-choice. As we mentioned previously, the new look of the menus/etc. in Classic will need to be aligned with whatever's going on in Premium, since I can't maintain two entirely separate interfaces, but that can be made keyboard compatible. I still have all the old cursor code, etc., and that may just have to be something that's turned on in an option, especially for dragging out rectangles and so forth where it doesn't align with the new paradigm very well.
Quote from: Lemming Dwarf
Since the UI is getting a touch up (and by extension the menu) are you planning on moving settings currently found in init.txt and d_init.txt into a "settings" menu so they can be tweaked in-game(if changes to the settings in-game is even possible)?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8198940#msg8198940
Yeah, a lot of them are easy to move over to a new menu without issues, especially d_init stuff. A few init.txt things might require a restart or killing and bringing the window back or whatever, and I'll see what I can do there. We already have the fullscreen button so imagine most of it is doable.
Quote from: Schmaven
Will the Itch.io/Steam version of Dwarf Fortress include a way for players to see individual dwarves' stress levels? The happiness counter that is a part of DFHack is incredibly useful to see fortress wide how the stress situation is. So I am very happy to see that in the Autumn Dev Update video :) I find it also very helpful to be able to see not just how many dwarves are unhappy, but which ones are at what level of unhappiness so I can spoil them with extra furniture made from their favorite stone, arrange a stockpile in their room of their favorite food and drink, misting them with waterfalls, etc., and cheer them up back from the precipice of insanity.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8200418#msg8200418
Schmaven (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8200486#msg8200486
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8200510#msg8200510
Schmaven (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8200531#msg8200531
Yeah, we'd been considering how to do this - the information at the level of the smiley faces is already available in the individual v-p-z paragraphs, and aggregating that somewhere seems like a nice way to remove some player busywork. Whether that's some manager-enabled popup or whatever, like the health stuff, remains to be seen. Seems likely it would turn out that way given how everything else currently works, and it doesn't seem like an unfair or weird amount of information given how thorough the doctors are and how much v-p-z already exposes, though it would perhaps be a little odd if the game aggregated, like, favorite stones by count or something, as if a very specific census/survey had been conducted.
Quote from: falcc
1) Relating to a question in the recent DF talk but maybe less severe: Will there be any way to let Goblins or other non-undead non-drinkers enjoy some food and booze just to sate their intemperance while they live at the fort?
2) If you make enough sweet, sweet, steam money will you keep the graphics artists working on to expand the graphics that make it into the steam release? For example making more complicated animal people images, more available parts for generated creatures, or making cool effects for magic?
3) You talked about improving military commands in the near future, as well as enemy armies doing things like building humiliating statues at your fort. Do you have any plans for armies to show up only planning to capture the single well-armed squad you send out to face them? How about having night trolls showing up to fulfill their kidnapping desires?
1) Yeah, visitors don't technically get hungry or thirsty if I remember, though they have some notion of needs. I'm far enough away from the first release there that I don't remember who gets served drinks or if the tavern keeper does anything properly. It was part of the original plan back when we were going to do recipes to make all of them into food critics basically, since the tavern has a reputation attached to it and they do go off and tell people about it. I suppose we may have to wait that long, especially for food stuff, getting back the proc recipe stuff. No idea when that happens.
2) There will need to be art for all of the new stuff for sure, and it seems inevitable that the old stuff will receive improvements as well, and certainly we'd love to keep the artists on for as long as they are available. It remains to be seen what the workflow looks like as we move over to a new features mode.
3) Ha ha, I hadn't thought about specific revenges like that. Certainly the troll thing has come up before - we didn't want to do that before you could launch a rescue mission, but now that we have the 'c' screen and rescue missions, I suppose it's only a matter of time.
Quote from: madpathmoth
I have a small question. Will part of the future military/armies update also include things like rebalancing bows and crossbows? Fixing how slow they are, fixing how dwarves will run up and start smashing enemies with their crossbows unless they have no direct path to them, and other such quirks. Okay, two questions. Would this also include making Throwing less ridiculous?
Combat stuff is on the table for the siege improvements especially, where we'll be seeing the most changes to local (rather than on-map) fighting, but that's a pretty broad category. So we haven't committed to ranged weapon/projectile changes particularly. We'll have to see what we settle on when we actually get a chance to come around and prepare a more detailed list of army/siege features, but I don't expect to get a chance to look at them until the graphical release is much further along and we figure out how the villains-army stuff is going to be ordered (now that the villain release has been broken in half, it may make more sense to interleave it with the army stuff, or it may still make sense to do all the delayed villains stuff first, depending on what gets us faster development.)
Quote from: ror6ax
So far, there's only one type of attack and it is only per one creature, AFAIK. Caves of Qud has swipes, jabs, hook-and-grabs, dismembering, bloodletting etc. Shooting enemies with crossbows also may have variations - pinning, blinding, kicking back, suppressing return fire, etc. Would something like this be present in DF? Would you make such "abilities" tied to level of weapon mastery or would it be some other skill tree of sorts?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8201866#msg8201866
madpathmoth: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8201867#msg8201867
ror6ax (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8202179#msg8202179
delphonso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8202195#msg8202195
etc.
So yeah, as people mentioned in the replies, we did have quite a bit already hidden in the attack menu, which answered the question for the most part. Also, our overall plan was to do the martial arts/combat styles stuff which had kind of a proto version in the original Armok, and that would in some sense be like a skill tree, though properly mushy and complicated in the DF fashion. When we see that is anybody's guess - in one alternate future, we see parts of it with the upcoming army stuff, on a lark, and in another possible future, it happens well after the myth/magic/culture/embark/boats/economy stuff.
Quote from: Iä! RIAKTOR!
Will next release contains more about night creatures?
Nope, aside from whatever fixes we need for tavern necromancers etc. We just added quite a bit to them, so we'll need to focus elsewhere for a time. Not that they don't keep drawing us back, but we must be disciplined, ha ha.
Quote
Quote from: RoseHow will the stockpile size selector work when you have multiple sized people in your fortress?
I want true multicultural forts.Quote from: Schmaven"This pile has been set to accept only bronze armor, for example. Not just that, but it'll only accept bronze armor which can be worn by dwarves. If the armor with the X at the top is turned on, it would also accept bronze armor for humans, which might show up in an invasion. This allows you to separate out junk, for example, so you can melt it down more easily. Note also that you can rule objects in and out by type, by quality, and so on."
I like the idea of being able to separate out junk for easier melting / trading away. Worn clothing also tends to accumulate fairly quickly.
What other criteria might be available to sort items by in stockpiles?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8203697#msg8203697
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206145#msg8206145
It's the same as it was up to this point. I've just taken the existing stockpile interface and made it filterable and alphabetized it. So the usable/unusable option is just the same one as before, and it always points to the critter attached to your civilization. Expanding forts/civs out to truly support multiple creature types is a bigger project than I can take on now.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Do you have any plans to take s second pass at trees and tree growth? It occurs to me that DF vanilla elves are supposed to have tree shaping magic, so M&M would be an opportunity to look at plants. I'm not saying the way trees grow is bad- it's a world of improvement over the prior 1 tile trees- but the way they burst out of the ground suddenly fully formed, and die in a puff of logs, could use a little more granularity, and it would be nice if dwarves could plant trees or suppress tree growth. Would the map rewrite help with this, for instance, making it possible to rotate felled trees through a horizontal dimension, or to render arbitrarily large or ambulatory trees (like a World Tree or Treant?)
Sorry if this comes across suggesty, I was just wondering if it might be in the cards.
It's possible - certainly world trees and such are on the radar and already exist in the myth prototype, so could very well be in the first myth/magic/map release. The other stuff, I'm not so sure - at some point in the distant pass, I wanted to have fallen trees be multitile, but that opens up a variety of issues that don't feel super important to tackle now. It seems very hard to do, because multitile grid issues are always a nightmare (turning etc.), but it would be funny to have flumes at some point. But rounding corners seems hard to get right.
It's also not too terrible for the saplings to then become a blocking tile - that has to happen at some point, and it'll always be a little jarring. Even if saplings first became non-blocking multitile objects, say, there would still be an instant where they become thick, and that's just going to be jarring. Although during the art work on trees it's already come up at least once, ha ha, since it is quite a leap right now - if I remember, we even have a few extra sapling pictures prepared which may go in, though that might not get us to multitile saplings.
Quote from: eightball8776
1. With all of the creation myth features being planned, are apocalypses and the end of the world something you have considered adding? If so, how do you envision them working? Would they just end the game or would they be something you can play during or even after?
2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8205958#msg8205958
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8205962#msg8205962
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8205984#msg8205984
I think the three responses linked here cover everything We already have rains of goblin blood, so maybe you'd just be watching the unusual weather reports at first. But in general, we'd be empowered by whatever old/new regional etc. magic effects we have to just have things go downhill, and we'd also have access to creatures and deities and all manner of things. They could have a schedule of horrors, be preventable, or whatever. I think it would definitely err on the side of non-instantaneous death. Playable apocalypses are more fun, certainly. But there may be room for a kind of "we are living in the last year of the world" vibe where nothing technically changes but everybody knows this is it, and then the world just sort of vanishes, but the period beforehand is the playable apocalypse of sorts, even without any ongoing changes, since the known future vanishment would reframe all that exists in the new terms. Seems like there might need to be player buy-in on this though, either at worldgen or through player triggering/abject failure to prevent.
And biome changes are straightforward in the sense of changing the rainfall/etc. values, but difficult in terms of the effects on plant and animal life and industry, etc., so we're hoping to ease that along in any way we can, but mostly it involves putting in some work on the regional boundaries or in places where, say, a desert suddenly replaces a forest. But regional change is a key feature and will be in on the first pass.
Quote from: LordBaal
Does are any plans of making trade depots an "area" like worshops in the future?
This got me thinking, once economy is started again, a single trade depot would work? What about having several "depots" at once, each dedicated to specific goods or trade partners, different sizes and whatnot. Or having a single huge market area for everyone, external an internal traders?
Sorry if it derived towards a suggestion, the main question is still adecuate I think.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206295#msg8206295
LordBaal (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206323#msg8206323
We hadn't settled on specifics, but way back with the caravan arc, our plan was to move over to something more like a traditional fair cycle. Since merchants get trapped in the fort time bubble and stay for a whole season, that approach made more sense. This would involve you setting up a whole fairgrounds type area (though a more dwarven variant of course, and quite likely underground), and various merchants could show up and there'd be a number of new buildings/zones to support this. This area could also double as a market for all of your attached settlements at other times of year. And yeah, some of the other ideas about trade included specific arrangements and so forth, in which case you'd just need to be able to receive and deliver prearranged goods, whether that involves a stockpile or something like the old depot.
So, yeah, overall the weird 5x5 depot building is one of the ones that stuck around the longest as we've aborted various attempts at redoing aspects of the economy, and hopefully we'll see it turn into something better when we hit the next viable change point.
Quote from: Beag
About what percent of creatures do you have sprites for so far?
As I recollect, we need the giant variants (these are underway), and we also need to finish the other major layered ones like dwarves (so humans, elves, goblins, kobolds.) We also have to do all of the procedural ones aside from night trolls (which are done.) But all of the regular/fantasy critters are done, and we have every animal person as well, though those may be tweaked for equipment etc. purposes.
Post by: clinodev on November 01, 2020, 07:17:17 pm
I'm very hopeful for additional pre-Premium releases! Work on stress and longstanding bugs is work on Premium, in my opinion, and better done early and somewhat at leisure than late and rushed.
Post by: Nilsolm on November 02, 2020, 04:38:35 am
1. You mentioned in the previous reply that some long-standing bugs are planned to be fixed for the Premium update. Do you have some vague idea what bugs can be addressed here in time? Bins, military finickiness, civil wars?
2. I haven't heard much about planned changes to the legends mode interface yet. Any concrete plans here? Better navigation, search, maybe event filtering?
3. Related, but probably more of a long-term thing: Would it be possible to make legends mode accessible from other game modes? Because I feel like that's where most of the game's true depth is, but that depth isn't really visible when playing adventure or fortress mode. Alternatively, have you thought about using the UI revamp to expose more legends info where that would make sense, for instance on artefacts' or visitors' history?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 02, 2020, 04:57:57 am
Some questions:2) Hyperlinks were mentioned in a recent interview (Dftalk, maybe?). Like the interface from the Mythgen demo.
1. You mentioned in the previous reply that some long-standing bugs are planned to be fixed for the Premium update. Do you have some vague idea what bugs can be addressed here in time? Bins, military finickiness, civil wars?
2. I haven't heard much about planned changes to the legends mode interface yet. Any concrete plans here? Better navigation, search, maybe event filtering?
3. Related, but probably more of a long-term thing: Would it be possible to make legends mode accessible from other game modes? Because I feel like that's where most of the game's true depth is, but that depth isn't really visible when playing adventure or fortress mode. Alternatively, have you thought about using the UI revamp to expose more legends info, for instance on artefacts' or visitors' history?
Post by: voliol on November 02, 2020, 05:23:43 am
Some questions:2) Hyperlinks were mentioned in a recent interview (Dftalk, maybe?). Like the interface from the Mythgen demo.
1. You mentioned in the previous reply that some long-standing bugs are planned to be fixed for the Premium update. Do you have some vague idea what bugs can be addressed here in time? Bins, military finickiness, civil wars?
2. I haven't heard much about planned changes to the legends mode interface yet. Any concrete plans here? Better navigation, search, maybe event filtering?
3. Related, but probably more of a long-term thing: Would it be possible to make legends mode accessible from other game modes? Because I feel like that's where most of the game's true depth is, but that depth isn't really visible when playing adventure or fortress mode. Alternatively, have you thought about using the UI revamp to expose more legends info, for instance on artefacts' or visitors' history?
It was mentioned briefly in DF Talk #23 (https://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_23_transcript.html) (around 57 minutes in):
Quote
[talking about information overload]Then they go into information handling in adventure mode and don't mention legends again. The conversation is interesting, but doesn't really answer 3).
Toady: Yeah, and that's another question about Steam players and stuff, it is just a giant brick, right, of text; should we enter like the age of the tab, the age of highlighting certain more important information?
Capntastic: Hyperlinks.
Toady: Hyperlinks in Legends mode especially, that's well on the table. Wouldn't it be great, to click on somebody's name in Adventure mode, instead of having to write it down on a scrap of paper, as I have done many times.
Post by: acastells on November 02, 2020, 05:46:54 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 02, 2020, 06:00:34 am
In the fortress mode it has been considered that we can generate waste that we have to channel through a sewer system?There are long discussions in Suggestions regarding it, yes. Toady reads the Suggestions threads but hasn't yet indicated a big "waste arc" yet. Would be good though.
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on November 02, 2020, 06:04:37 am
Some questions:
1. You mentioned in the previous reply that some long-standing bugs are planned to be fixed for the Premium update. Do you have some vague idea what bugs can be addressed here in time? Bins, military finickiness, civil wars?
2. I haven't heard much about planned changes to the legends mode interface yet. Any concrete plans here? Better navigation, search, maybe event filtering?
3. Related, but probably more of a long-term thing: Would it be possible to make legends mode accessible from other game modes? Because I feel like that's where most of the game's true depth is, but that depth isn't really visible when playing adventure or fortress mode. Alternatively, have you thought about using the UI revamp to expose more legends info, for instance on artefacts' or visitors' history?
There's this answer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004239;topicseen#msg8004239) from a while back regarding certain parts of legends mode remaining secret that gives somewhat of an answer to number 3:
Quote from: ToadyOne
There was that distant time when legends mode was going to be about the information you've uncovered in all of your games, but it's really moved away from that - and the volume of information is so large now (and mostly uninteresting by itself) that that seems fine. However, when we get to the origin of the world and the big ticket secrets, that seems like something we'll definitely be doing again. For all of the other little secrets, yeah, I dunno. There's a lot of stuff you kind of shouldn't know now, concerning plots and so forth, but legends mode doesn't read well without them. It might be something more like letting you look at a sort of legends mode from the other modes, with only the things you should know, which I think was always in the cards but has some difficulties in terms of information tracking.
Post by: Nilsolm on November 02, 2020, 08:06:28 am
There's this answer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004239;topicseen#msg8004239) from a while back regarding certain parts of legends mode remaining secret that gives somewhat of an answer to number 3:Quote from: ToadyOneThere was that distant time when legends mode was going to be about the information you've uncovered in all of your games, but it's really moved away from that - and the volume of information is so large now (and mostly uninteresting by itself) that that seems fine. However, when we get to the origin of the world and the big ticket secrets, that seems like something we'll definitely be doing again. For all of the other little secrets, yeah, I dunno. There's a lot of stuff you kind of shouldn't know now, concerning plots and so forth, but legends mode doesn't read well without them. It might be something more like letting you look at a sort of legends mode from the other modes, with only the things you should know, which I think was always in the cards but has some difficulties in terms of information tracking.
Ah, I remember that answer now. I am aware that most legends information would be either uninteresting (endless participation in battles, for instance) or reveal too much (plots, secret identities, etc.). But I believe there might be some cases in which it would make sense to display a bit more info on the UI which is why I was asking. That's also why I mentioned visitors, because at the moment, the only thing you can find out about them is why they came to the fort, but you can't even find out where they came from without having to sift through the legends.
e.: changed the question a bit to make it clearer what I meant.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 02, 2020, 11:29:39 am
Some questions:I'm sure Toady has some ideas, but I wouldn't expect him to go into details, as he tends to not to want to appear to promise something, as that tends to result in complaints when someone's pet bug turned out to be too hard to fix, or wouldn't make it in time wise.
1. You mentioned in the previous reply that some long-standing bugs are planned to be fixed for the Premium update. Do you have some vague idea what bugs can be addressed here in time? Bins, military finickiness, civil wars?
:
Crash bugs are always high on the agenda, though, so we can be reasonably sure another attempt will be made to deal with equipment corruption. I'd suggest zero size creatures and were births to be two other candidates in that category. Expect to know what made it when there are release notes to look at.
Post by: mwanafalsafa on November 02, 2020, 03:52:44 pm
In the Steam version, to what extent will we be able to implement our own graphics not only for the 'in-game' tiles but also for the new UI menus and other elements? Basically, I'd like to be able to play with ASCII tileset/graphics and my own custom UI elements to match the ASCII look and feel. Can this be a thing?
Post by: ror6ax on November 02, 2020, 04:13:58 pm
Post by: MalroktheIII on November 03, 2020, 02:47:47 am
1:With the siege rework, will necromancers (and similar night creatures) be affected, as far as tactics go?
2:Will the personality and/or emotional state, in addition of a commanding officer affect tactics (or even lead to mistakes on the sieging armies part)?
3:Will army morale or, possibly general army mood (eg: the general mood of the sieging army is vengeful, after you assassinated their commanding officer with a balista) be a thing? (Or if it is, will it be a more significant factor?
3b:If morale/mood is a thing, how deep would it go (whole army, squads, all of a certain race or religion in an army, etc)
4:Are/Will actual officers which can lead an army/part of an army be a thing?
5:Will importance be given to certain groups an an army, with certain groups being treated as expendable (eg: mindless undead, trolls, less skilled squads), with others being granted specialized tasks, like flanking while some of the expendable keeps the fort busy, or going in to take prisoners and loot (and then maybe running off) (Perhaps the officers backstory (race, personality, current civ, previous civs, religious affiliation, orders, likes/dislikes, current mood) might effect it
6:Will enemies attempt to take and hold (and maybe even fortify) sections of fort, if they feel that going further in (without time to dig) means death (eg: you have a trap hall between your forges and farms, and they only have the forges), perhaps using/looting the sections they took, only destroying it (after taking all the valuables they can steal) if they are about to be driven out.
7:I saw something about conquerors adding new (and possibly humiliating) things to the forts they take. What other things besides that would they add? What does it entail?
8: Will (especially if you abandon the fort during a siege) any prisoners/ slaves be taken from your populations.
9:Will there be any direct/special behaviors for certain armies eg: elves/goblins eating corpses, or necromancers taking time to raise the dead between attack waves, or humans making actual camps which they rest in between waves (like, actual constructions, as opposed to them sitting in a corner or something) or dwarves digging down and releasing the hfs?(joke, don’t make dwarves so that please)
10:Will invading enemies have new goals besides conquering the fortress (or, maybe having secondary goals to fall back on if they fail to conquer the fort)
Feel free to ignore the examples here, these would probably do better in suggestions.
Some examples would be stealing/recovering(if the fort stole it) an artifact, freeing prisoners (cage traps), secretly subverting defenses (secret tunnels), acting as a vanguard for a larger force (Lay enough infrastructure down and soften the fort enough do that the incoming force can crush it),Doing a certain amount of damage/killings/kidnappings (either as retribution, a culling, a demand for tribute, or, if used alternately, a draft/tithe), killing/kidnapping a king/militia captain/ other position holder, killing/kidnapping a non-position holder, a cleansing (killing vampires, werecreatures, and necromancers specifically), ethnic cleansing (kill elves only (like those tavern dancers)), looting as much as possible, taking slaves/prisoners, or a scouting mission (probe defenses).
10a:If you would add extra goals, would some of them be tied to the villain system (assuming you add the left out features at some point), eg: a spy telling the anti necromancer alliance that you specifically harbor necromancers(which might be false), causing for them to send a force to slay the existential threat, or a spy making a secret tunnel for the goblins, or a villain dwarf becoming king by convincing the goblin spy to send information such that the next siege is out to specifically kidnap/kill the king.
Post by: MrWiggles on November 04, 2020, 11:17:21 am
I am sure this is far too many questions. Feel free to ignore as many of them as you want. The examples I give are merely to illustrate my points, they are not direct suggestions.Welcome to the Forum. Hope you stick around! Toady isnt currently working on Seiges right now. So you may want to save these questions when they are. As you're not likely to get any substantive answer, beyond, "we'll see", "sounds goods", or "i dont know".
1:With the siege rework, will necromancers (and similar night creatures) be affected, as far as tactics go?
2:Will the personality and/or emotional state, in addition of a commanding officer affect tactics (or even lead to mistakes on the sieging armies part)?
3:Will army morale or, possibly general army mood (eg: the general mood of the sieging army is vengeful, after you assassinated their commanding officer with a balista) be a thing? (Or if it is, will it be a more significant factor?
3b:If morale/mood is a thing, how deep would it go (whole army, squads, all of a certain race or religion in an army, etc)
4:Are/Will actual officers which can lead an army/part of an army be a thing?
5:Will importance be given to certain groups an an army, with certain groups being treated as expendable (eg: mindless undead, trolls, less skilled squads), with others being granted specialized tasks, like flanking while some of the expendable keeps the fort busy, or going in to take prisoners and loot (and then maybe running off) (Perhaps the officers backstory (race, personality, current civ, previous civs, religious affiliation, orders, likes/dislikes, current mood) might effect it
6:Will enemies attempt to take and hold (and maybe even fortify) sections of fort, if they feel that going further in (without time to dig) means death (eg: you have a trap hall between your forges and farms, and they only have the forges), perhaps using/looting the sections they took, only destroying it (after taking all the valuables they can steal) if they are about to be driven out.
7:I saw something about conquerors adding new (and possibly humiliating) things to the forts they take. What other things besides that would they add? What does it entail?
8: Will (especially if you abandon the fort during a siege) any prisoners/ slaves be taken from your populations.
9:Will there be any direct/special behaviors for certain armies eg: elves/goblins eating corpses, or necromancers taking time to raise the dead between attack waves, or humans making actual camps which they rest in between waves (like, actual constructions, as opposed to them sitting in a corner or something) or dwarves digging down and releasing the hfs?(joke, don’t make dwarves so that please)
10:Will invading enemies have new goals besides conquering the fortress (or, maybe having secondary goals to fall back on if they fail to conquer the fort)
Feel free to ignore the examples here, these would probably do better in suggestions.
Some examples would be stealing/recovering(if the fort stole it) an artifact, freeing prisoners (cage traps), secretly subverting defenses (secret tunnels), acting as a vanguard for a larger force (Lay enough infrastructure down and soften the fort enough do that the incoming force can crush it),Doing a certain amount of damage/killings/kidnappings (either as retribution, a culling, a demand for tribute, or, if used alternately, a draft/tithe), killing/kidnapping a king/militia captain/ other position holder, killing/kidnapping a non-position holder, a cleansing (killing vampires, werecreatures, and necromancers specifically), ethnic cleansing (kill elves only (like those tavern dancers)), looting as much as possible, taking slaves/prisoners, or a scouting mission (probe defenses).
10a:If you would add extra goals, would some of them be tied to the villain system (assuming you add the left out features at some point), eg: a spy telling the anti necromancer alliance that you specifically harbor necromancers(which might be false), causing for them to send a force to slay the existential threat, or a spy making a secret tunnel for the goblins, or a villain dwarf becoming king by convincing the goblin spy to send information such that the next siege is out to specifically kidnap/kill the king.
Post by: ror6ax on November 05, 2020, 02:01:10 pm
*orignially wanted to post this to the Steam tileset feedback but it seems to be out of scope for just tileset changes*
I wanted to bring up (lack of) shadows of the mountains.
Slopes have their individual shadows - on the last email update images the "sun" seems to be in the "north". If there is a shadow at all - it's not midday, hence it would naturally follow that a mountain of z levels above would have a multiplying, overlapping shadow that extends on the grass that's below it on the screen.
Seeing that change over time would also be insanely beneficial for immersion.
Post by: Immortal-D on November 07, 2020, 08:55:30 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 07, 2020, 11:40:41 pm
Regarding Steam: Given DF's extreme long-term development roadmap, are you planning to release the game labeled as Early Access? Also, will Steam have its' own bug reporting, or will you redirect Steam players to Mantis?Last word was that he didn't want to do early access, as that would imply there was a complete game on the way sometime soon before Steam goes bankrupt in 30 years time. Will likely be up to Steam in the end though. Unreal World isn't Early Access and that a very similar model with a similar "might take two or three more lifetimes to finish everything" development plan.
Steam gives you access to a tileset and music tracks. It's the same game otherwise. Two bug trackers would be meaningless.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 08, 2020, 03:34:06 am
DF is similar to UrW in the sense that both are eternity projects, but extremely dissimilar in that UrW is focused on keeping the game playable and as bug free as humanly possible, while DF is a "you're along for the ride" project where adding stuff is much more important than balance, playability, and bugs. The commercial launch of DF may well result in the project being pushed to give a higher weight to playability and bug fixing than what's been the case in the past, but it's extremely unlikely that it will come anywhere close to the UrW development model (and I'm not sure that would be good for either DF or Toady anyway).Regarding Steam: Given DF's extreme long-term development roadmap, are you planning to release the game labeled as Early Access? Also, will Steam have its' own bug reporting, or will you redirect Steam players to Mantis?Last word was that he didn't want to do early access, as that would imply there was a complete game on the way sometime soon before Steam goes bankrupt in 30 years time. Will likely be up to Steam in the end though. Unreal World isn't Early Access and that a very similar model with a similar "might take two or three more lifetimes to finish everything" development plan.
Steam gives you access to a tileset and music tracks. It's the same game otherwise. Two bug trackers would be meaningless.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 08, 2020, 04:55:19 am
So you think Steam will force an Early Access label on Dwarf Fortress because it has bugs?DF is similar to UrW in the sense that both are eternity projects, but extremely dissimilar in that UrW is focused on keeping the game playable and as bug free as humanly possible, while DF is a "you're along for the ride" project where adding stuff is much more important than balance, playability, and bugs. The commercial launch of DF may well result in the project being pushed to give a higher weight to playability and bug fixing than what's been the case in the past, but it's extremely unlikely that it will come anywhere close to the UrW development model (and I'm not sure that would be good for either DF or Toady anyway).Regarding Steam: Given DF's extreme long-term development roadmap, are you planning to release the game labeled as Early Access? Also, will Steam have its' own bug reporting, or will you redirect Steam players to Mantis?Last word was that he didn't want to do early access, as that would imply there was a complete game on the way sometime soon before Steam goes bankrupt in 30 years time. Will likely be up to Steam in the end though. Unreal World isn't Early Access and that a very similar model with a similar "might take two or three more lifetimes to finish everything" development plan.
Steam gives you access to a tileset and music tracks. It's the same game otherwise. Two bug trackers would be meaningless.
Post by: FrankVill on November 08, 2020, 07:51:59 am
My question:
How much of done graphic work could be represented in adventure mode in this moment? How differents are both modes respect to tiles or interfaces implementation? Could it mean double task?
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 08, 2020, 08:00:18 am
:No. I've made the mistake of donating to Steam in the hope of being granted a license to play a game (which was granted, as expected), only to find it ended abruptly (as in: the story arc didn't have any continuation, with the sandbox part still active) well before an expected halfway point. A number of years later it's supposedly finished. Thus, I doubt Steam cares much, and so my totally uneducated guess is that they won't force the label on DF.
So you think Steam will force an Early Access label on Dwarf Fortress because it has bugs?
My point was that the comparison between UrW and DF isn't a fair one. The former is a polished game in perpetual development, while the latter is riddled with bugs and half finished features similar to what you'd expect in Early Access (at least for the cases where it isn't more like early alpha), with no indication that the situation would change drastically before nearing completion. I still believe DF should use the Early Access tag, as it would better describe the game's state and future (in the absence of a Perpetual Development indication that still would need to be qualified).
Post by: voliol on November 08, 2020, 09:52:45 am
:No. I've made the mistake of donating to Steam in the hope of being granted a license to play a game (which was granted, as expected), only to find it ended abruptly (as in: the story arc didn't have any continuation, with the sandbox part still active) well before an expected halfway point. A number of years later it's supposedly finished. Thus, I doubt Steam cares much, and so my totally uneducated guess is that they won't force the label on DF.
So you think Steam will force an Early Access label on Dwarf Fortress because it has bugs?
My point was that the comparison between UrW and DF isn't a fair one. The former is a polished game in perpetual development, while the latter is riddled with bugs and half finished features similar to what you'd expect in Early Access (at least for the cases where it isn't more like early alpha), with no indication that the situation would change drastically before nearing completion. I still believe DF should use the Early Access tag, as it would better describe the game's state and future (in the absence of a Perpetual Development indication that still would need to be qualified).
At the same time, normally an game being unfinished (deserving of the early access label) means it is not yet ”a full game”, lacking in features and content. Dwarf Fortress is still in-development, but fortress mode is definitely (and has been for a while) ”a full game”. From that point of view, labeling it early access would be strongly misleading.
In conclusion, the true nature of Dwarf Fortress is a blur. But - a choice must be made if the game is to be sold on Steam. Having it not be early access is the obvious choice, as otherwise possible buyers will needlessly wait for the ”actual release” which won’t arrive in decades.
Nowadays graphic work and Interface design for Steam version is focused in Fortress mode. I remember having read once that is not the same making tiles for Fortress mode than Adventure mode due some diferences betwen both ones. It's possible that I can be in a mistake, for that reason I decided not colour my question in green lime until somebody could say me if I was wrong or not.
My question:
How much of done graphic work could be represented in adventure mode in this moment? How differents are both modes respect to tiles or interfaces implementation? Could it mean double task?
Even if the answer is known by some fringe of the community, there’s nothing wrong with asking a question directly to Tarn. If it is answered in this thread before the end of the month, he’ll link to the answers and say ”yeah what they said” in the FotF reply, and that way others that didn’t know it and who don’t comb this thread still get to know the answer.
Post by: ror6ax on November 09, 2020, 05:50:30 am
It undergoes UI redesign just as Df does, it has releases that break stuff and screw the balance just as Df does, but it does appear in Steam as early access game and is rated Overwhelmingly positive.
Post by: voliol on November 09, 2020, 06:49:08 am
In the end, I'm an amateur at best when it comes to sales decisions, so I'll just trust Kitfox' (and Tarn+Zach) on this, which currently seems to be to release DF as a full game.
Post by: FrankVill on November 09, 2020, 07:45:00 am
Nowadays graphic work and Interface design for Steam version is focused in Fortress mode. I remember having read once that is not the same making tiles for Fortress mode than Adventure mode due some diferences betwen both ones. It's possible that I can be in a mistake, for that reason I decided not colour my question in green lime until somebody could say me if I was wrong or not.
My question:
How much of done graphic work could be represented in adventure mode in this moment? How differents are both modes respect to tiles or interfaces implementation? Could it mean double task?
Even if the answer is known by some fringe of the community, there’s nothing wrong with asking a question directly to Tarn. If it is answered in this thread before the end of the month, he’ll link to the answers and say ”yeah what they said” in the FotF reply, and that way others that didn’t know it and who don’t comb this thread still get to know the answer.
You are right. I'll change colour, thanks.
Post by: mosshadow on November 10, 2020, 03:01:53 pm
Does anyone know if this question has been asked in an older version of this thread?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 10, 2020, 04:05:21 pm
I want to ask this question, but I have a feeling its already been asked before though I can't find it in a search of the thread. Has anyone asked Toady if Werebeasts/Vampires will change their personality after being cursed in response to their nature in future versions. Because as I understand it, they continue on acting as normal until they need to feed or the fullmoon strikes. Also other dwarfs cannot remember a specific dwarf being the werebeast even if it slaughters people in front of them after transforming.Don't recall it so you may as well ask. Although it's more of a suggestion than a question about upcoming plans. Nothing's planned specifically for werebeasts in the near future (although Mythgen when we eventually get there will likely get them looked at again).
Does anyone know if this question has been asked in an older version of this thread?
Post by: ror6ax on November 12, 2020, 07:37:07 am
2. Since the beta is not in the cards, could we get the next best thing - more screenshots of your test runs? I'm waiting Thursdays like a madman only to have few tiny cropped images to look at.
Post by: MC on November 12, 2020, 07:44:41 am
Post by: Mim on November 12, 2020, 08:54:33 am
2. M >= (aSY/wSY + (A+1)*aSF/wSF) * (10 + 2*a_quality) / (Sha * w_quality)
Where does this equation come from? I went on a wild goose choose through the Internet to try and figure this one out, but to no avail. On the plus side, I learned a lot about fracture mechanics.
Here is the link to my original question, also: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8192435#msg8192435
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 12, 2020, 11:48:49 am
1. Have you considered opening an official DF swag shop? It would surely put a few coins in the piggybank...Well, your promise promises a gross income from such a shop, but unless you can make a production on demand deal with no minimum volumes or deal setup costs, Toady is going to have to take a risk by putting money into making deals and getting stock, so there's no guaranteed positive economic outcome.
:
In addition to that, Toady doesn't seem to be the type that enjoys contractual and financial negotiations left, right, and center, and, finally, any time spent on managing a shop is time not spent on DF. If management could be offloaded to a trusted third party you'd be down to just the financial risk.
Post by: ror6ax on November 12, 2020, 02:06:00 pm
Post by: Ketsa on November 12, 2020, 02:37:19 pm
I'm not convinced with what I saw.
missing depth and perspective, colors looks washed, total lack of character.
Post by: voliol on November 12, 2020, 03:35:13 pm
Will this new tileset be easily modable ?
I'm not convinced with what I saw.
missing depth and perspective, colors looks washed, total lack of character.
Yes. Afaik many of the existing graphics sets (at least those using TWBT) will be updated to match Premium as well, so soonish after the release there will be alternatives to the vanilla graphics.
Multi-level view will be supported, but if you want anything with yet more "depth and perspective" than the top-down view of the vanilla graphics, you'll have to use third-party visualizers like Stonesense or Armok Vision.
Post by: Schmaven on November 12, 2020, 03:59:34 pm
Will this new tileset be easily modable ?
I'm not convinced with what I saw.
missing depth and perspective, colors looks washed, total lack of character.
Yes. Afaik many of the existing graphics sets (at least those using TWBT) will be updated to match Premium as well, so soonish after the release there will be alternatives to the vanilla graphics.
If you want anything other than a slice-by-slice 2D view though, for more "depth and perspective", you'll have to use third-party visualizers like Stonesense or Armok Vision.
Do you mean multi-level view is no longer going to be supported?
Post by: LordBaal on November 12, 2020, 04:02:06 pm
Post by: clinodev on November 12, 2020, 04:24:01 pm
1. Have you considered opening an official DF swag shop? It would surely put a few coins in the piggybank...
Toady's talked about not wanting to deal with this in the past, and when asked, Kitfox has also seemed disinterested, at this time at least.
I think it's unfortunate, because looking at the number of stolen art tshirt scammers alone we remove on /r/dwarffortress, and the enthusiastic upvoting we see for them, there are certainly many people convinced there's money there.
Do you mean multi-level view is no longer going to be supported?[snip][snip]
missing depth and perspective, colors looks washed, total lack of character.
If you want anything other than a slice-by-slice 2D view though, for more "depth and perspective", you'll have to use third-party visualizers like Stonesense or Armok Vision.
They've made major design choices based on multilevel view being in the game, and Meph's commented relatively recently on the implementation (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/ixqj7n/dwarf_fortress_steam_autumn_dev_update_gameplay/g6a7f8g/) of it, so I'm fairly certain it's still going to be supported. I don't think they've announced any graphics features that will be exclusive to Premium except the art itself.
Post by: voliol on November 12, 2020, 04:31:44 pm
Will this new tileset be easily modable ?
I'm not convinced with what I saw.
missing depth and perspective, colors looks washed, total lack of character.
Yes. Afaik many of the existing graphics sets (at least those using TWBT) will be updated to match Premium as well, so soonish after the release there will be alternatives to the vanilla graphics.
If you want anything other than a slice-by-slice 2D view though, for more "depth and perspective", you'll have to use third-party visualizers like Stonesense or Armok Vision.
Do you mean multi-level view is no longer going to be supported?
That was poorly worded. No, it will be supported, now natively (pretty sure multi-level view before/currently was/is a DFhack feature?).
Spoiler: Here's a screenshot taken from the Steam storepage: (click to show/hide)
Post by: LordBaal on November 12, 2020, 05:34:50 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on November 12, 2020, 06:14:56 pm
Post by: Rose on November 12, 2020, 07:19:41 pm
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on November 15, 2020, 02:54:00 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 15, 2020, 04:04:56 am
Why RAISED_GHOST interactions are currently removed from the game?Too many bugs.
(That's if it's related to raising intelligent ghost lieutenants. Toady mentions it in the devblog somewhere).
Post by: Putnam on November 16, 2020, 12:21:41 am
2. M >= (aSY/wSY + (A+1)*aSF/wSF) * (10 + 2*a_quality) / (Sha * w_quality)
You do the dimensional analysis on it and find that it's basically just unitless nonsense creating a "good-enough" value that allows for all of quality, material and sharpness to matter. The left-hand side is in units of MLT-1 and the right-hand side is, as far as I can tell, dimensionless; obviously aSY/wSY and aSF/wSF are dimensionless, but sharpness, too, is dimensionless, being relative to a given value, and contact area is... well, maybe unitless, it could also be united, in which case you've got MLT-1 = L2, which, no it ain't.
Post by: ror6ax on November 17, 2020, 03:36:05 pm
Post by: voliol on November 17, 2020, 04:56:16 pm
Will there be a fix of famously useless professions / workshop entries before Steam release? As far as I am aware it's only a matter of adding some entries in raw files so it should be really easy compared to all the bug-fixing.Which are these? The alchemist profession? The liquid fire a mog hopper juice reactions? Asking out of curiosity, and as a clearer question will lead to a clearer answer as well.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 17, 2020, 05:15:18 pm
Will there be a fix of famously useless professions / workshop entries before Steam release? As far as I am aware it's only a matter of adding some entries in raw files so it should be really easy compared to all the bug-fixing.Everything is really easy compared to hard things. Problem is there are thousands and thousands of them and some things (like making a UI) have to be prioritized over....whatever you're asking for here. Probably ought to clarify. Things that are "famous" to a niche portion of forum people likely aren't known through subtle hints to anyone else, including the people who make the game.
Post by: MC on November 17, 2020, 06:07:34 pm
Honestly I'd rate the fact that migrants can waste their lives learning terrible skills that make even stuff like beekeeping seem good in comparison is probably more subtly impactful to the game's experience than a lot of stuff people complain about, and I'm sure that more players have started cursing and been frustrated at waves of legendary cheesemakers than the wagon despawning bug, or raid based crashing, or the age of goblins or any of bugs that seem bigger on the surface.
Its also probably not good for getting new players in if they see skills like animal caretaking and try to figure out what it does, not knowing that the answer is "pretty much nothing".
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 17, 2020, 10:02:08 pm
Step 6 of tutorial, Migrant Wave, "profession=highest skill, not an actual job the dwarf needs to do. Set them to work doing whatever you need".
That's quite a bit quicker than spending years on completing the professions arc before release, isn't it?
Post by: Su on November 18, 2020, 02:56:25 am
also, don't take this as a complaint or anything, i'm just curious - how often do you update the development page?
Post by: Silverwing235 on November 18, 2020, 05:44:19 am
I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive at their fort to know how useless that skill is.
Honestly I'd rate the fact that migrants can waste their lives learning terrible skills that make even stuff like beekeeping seem good in comparison is probably more subtly impactful to the game's experience than a lot of stuff people complain about, and I'm sure that more players have started cursing and been frustrated at waves of legendary cheesemakers than the wagon despawning bug, or raid based crashing, or the age of goblins or any of bugs that seem bigger on the surface.
Its also probably not good for getting new players in if they see skills like animal caretaking and try to figure out what it does, not knowing that the answer is "pretty much nothing".
Yeah, don't mind me...FTFY?
Post by: ror6ax on November 18, 2020, 08:43:53 am
I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.
Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.
On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.
Post by: ror6ax on November 18, 2020, 09:50:54 am
Post by: voliol on November 18, 2020, 10:09:15 am
Can we have a separate thread for Steam achievement ideas?http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175041 It already exists. ;)
These are reading more and more like suggestions. Put them over in the suggestions forum for better handling (especially if you have more).I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.
On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.
Post by: Silverwing235 on November 18, 2020, 02:04:52 pm
Can we have a separate thread for Steam achievement ideas?http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175041 It already exists. ;)These are reading more and more like suggestions. Put them over in the suggestions forum for better handling (especially if you have more).I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.
On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.
My apologies to all, then, for trying to help - it just seems to be what happens when you try to include proper context to the original question, hence the limegreening on my part.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 18, 2020, 04:16:01 pm
Your original question then was, "Will you expand the workshop extracts system for Steam release (as it seems incomplete)"?Can we have a separate thread for Steam achievement ideas?http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175041 It already exists. ;)These are reading more and more like suggestions. Put them over in the suggestions forum for better handling (especially if you have more).I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.
On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.
My apologies to all, then, for trying to help - it just seems to be what happens when you try to include proper context to the original question, hence the limegreening on my part.
Likely no. Toady's previously answered that the focus of this release is not to add new content unless absolutely necessary (to fit with the new UI, replace the hated labour system, etc). The more new stuff is added, the more likely it is to break everything else. Better he spends the bug fixing phase fixing UI bugs than something he's accidentally broken elsewhere (often happens in as complex a simulation as this that things which seem unrelated all effect one another and break down terribly).
Post by: ror6ax on November 18, 2020, 05:13:04 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 18, 2020, 05:27:15 pm
Just curious, is there an integration test suite or every release gets manually playtested for not introducing bugs?Playtested by whom? Scamps?
I don't mean crash bugs (Toady has a set of tools for testing his new features, yes). I mean "adding mugs to the game causes cats to die of alcohol poisoning" bugs. How would an automated system ever know to look for that. Which leaves you with letting Zach and Scamps test the game, or thousands of players. And previously he tried the "closed set of playtesters" thing and bugs were found by the thousands of players anyway. Delay with zero result.
(Steam release will apparently get some closed playtesting anyhow - we'll see how effective that is...).
Post by: ror6ax on November 18, 2020, 05:52:36 pm
Just curious, is there an integration test suite or every release gets manually playtested for not introducing bugs?Playtested by whom? Scamps?
I'm starting to feel like I'm upsetting people by asking questions to what is supposed to be a AMA thread.
Post by: voliol on November 18, 2020, 06:51:57 pm
I'm starting to feel like I'm upsetting people by asking questions to what is supposed to be a AMA thread.
Specifically, this is a thread "to discuss current developments". The reason I suggested moving the question is that Toady requests it in the top post of this thread, and that the suggestions forum is a better, well, forum for suggestions, both for discussion and future readability.
It was also the addition of another "suggestion-question" that prompted my reply, the clarification of the first question was perfectly fine.
That said, I'm pretty sure all the regulars of this thread has put forth questions blurring the suggestion line, the temptation is simply too sweet to not. Or at least I have, so I am not the one to find faults in others. Sorry for coming off as upset. :/
(psst: for a "truer" AMA, with light suggestions and bug questions allowed, DF Talk is what you seek (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=44597.0))
Post by: Nilsolm on November 19, 2020, 03:38:26 am
Post by: voliol on November 19, 2020, 05:33:32 am
What are the current plans for alchemy? Any chance for some of them to get implemented during the myths & magic arc?
There is a chance, answers to similar questions have implied it's still undecided what will go into the first release, but alchemy is a candidate. I've bolded the most relevant parts for you.
Quote from: FotF reply May/June 2018
Quote from: Beag1. In terms of magical crafting in the first pass of the myth and magic update will there be forms of magic crafting that require stationary work areas such as an alchemy lab or run scribing table? If so would an adventurer in those worlds be able to participate in magic crafting if they found one of those work areas or would such crafting be fortress mode only?PatrikLundell said "It's probably too early to say what will and what will not appear in the *first* Myth & Magic arc," and I'd like to emphasize that; for many questions, I'm just not going to be able to provide a timeline, though we've committed to certain bits or themes for the first pass.
[...]
1. On the one hand, adventurers can't use most workshops and the most industrialized magic forms might end up falling into this pattern. However, on the other, we'd be pretty invested in having adventurer involvement throughout here.
[...]
Quote from: FotF reply June/July 2018
Quote from: JesterHell696Do you think dynamic combination of magic will be possible with magic, an example being mixing water and fire magic on the fly to create steam or fire and earth to create magma or would such combinations need to be predefined?Something needs to be defined somewhere; what the atoms are is up to the system. If we rely on chemistry etc. out in the typical game mechanics, we'll have the things we current have (magma and water produces steam and obsidian etc), plus anything that is explicitly added. If the system uses predefined conceptual nodes, like the spheres, then they can hop around the friend/parent/child/opposition relationships they have, and spell effects might be related to that. So, as a potential example, a light effect might miscast into a (generated) sun effect, which could be very bad -- I'm not sure what we'll have in this first pass, but this is the sort of thing that should be natural for it to do, as sphere-effect coverage grows. There's also a cross-over zone with stuff like the "sphere" regions; if a region is interacted with and its attached symbols change, then its properties might shift dynamically.
We don't currently have a (possibly generated?) sphere/concept math, like <sphere:earth> + <sphere:water> =e.g.= <sphere:muck>, but this sort of thing is possible and might come in with alchemy. There are various ways this can be done, and we've toyed around with a few of them in side projects. Not all ~120 spheres need to be represented; it could pick, say, 8 sufficiently "far apart" spheres at random, and then use whatever mixing system and generic sphere-effect generators to handle situations, with coverage and possibilities being increased as we add effects and conceptual linkages.
My anticipation now is that we'll have some of this to start, a few classes of generated system with this kind of behavior, and then it will improve and broaden over time.
Quote from: FotF reply September/October 2018
Quote from: Renarin21[...][...]
9. Will certain symbols become recurring and socially relevant? (ex: in various ancient real-life cultures, horns are considered a sign of power, and some speculate that crowns symbolically replicate them)
[...]
9. We have entity symbols now, they just aren't done well and don't feed into a larger symbolism. Magic symbolism will probably come in before cultural symbolism, just because of the release order and the likelihood that e.g. any form of 'alchemy' or 'potion-making' will require that sort of thing.
[...]
Post by: Nilsolm on November 20, 2020, 04:28:48 am
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on November 22, 2020, 05:36:06 am
Post by: delphonso on November 22, 2020, 05:38:46 am
I know big part of comminity that like to play with funny bugs, like catsplosion. Why you don't release 'unstable' version of Villains update with buggy ghosts?
I think most of us enjoy bugs only in so far as they are funny. Babies playing horsie to death was hilarious, but also made fortress mode pretty terrible. Catsplosion is a fun story but was also FPS death for a lot of forts.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 22, 2020, 05:42:39 am
I know big part of comminity that like to play with funny bugs, like catsplosion. Why you don't release 'unstable' version of Villains update with buggy ghosts?Current version of the game has buggy ghosts. That's why he couldn't make the intelligent undead versions. As fun as it all is, no-one makes bugs on purpose.
Post by: Eric Blank on November 22, 2020, 05:54:39 am
Post by: Ekaton on November 23, 2020, 01:48:25 am
Post by: green_meklar on November 23, 2020, 02:57:30 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 23, 2020, 04:17:27 am
Post by: Eric Blank on November 23, 2020, 03:30:17 pm
Post by: Su on November 25, 2020, 06:15:07 am
Regarding the myth/magic content, will the AI respond preemptively to foreknown world events? For instance, if a given region is going to shift to become a demonic hellscape when the planets align, and the date (and implications) of this alignment are common knowledge in that world, one would expect nearby civilizations to evacuate the area as the date approaches; if an immortal being's lover is cursed to sleep for 700 years, then as the curse nears its end that being might choose to return to the tomb where their lover sleeps in order to meet them when they awaken; and so on for a variety of other prophecies, curses and such where important magical events or changes in the world are knowable in advance. Is this sort of preemptive action on the part of ingame beings or civilizations planned for the myth/magic content, or even feasible to implement?
the immortal lovers one i would hope to see, but it's a quite common thing in fiction and myth for there to be widespread denial regarding apocalyptic events. think majora's mask with everyone refusing to leave despite the moon being *right there*, or lot and his family being the only ones to leave sodom.
in fact, it turns out this even happens in real life too - look at the awful response by our governments to the climate crisis, or the pandemic for a more immediate example: continual denial and then downplaying when it gets too big a problem to ignore.
Post by: voliol on November 25, 2020, 07:13:52 am
Regarding the myth/magic content, will the AI respond preemptively to foreknown world events? For instance, if a given region is going to shift to become a demonic hellscape when the planets align, and the date (and implications) of this alignment are common knowledge in that world, one would expect nearby civilizations to evacuate the area as the date approaches; if an immortal being's lover is cursed to sleep for 700 years, then as the curse nears its end that being might choose to return to the tomb where their lover sleeps in order to meet them when they awaken; and so on for a variety of other prophecies, curses and such where important magical events or changes in the world are knowable in advance. Is this sort of preemptive action on the part of ingame beings or civilizations planned for the myth/magic content, or even feasible to implement?
On that topic, how much does the AI currently care about future events? I know we have refugees, but those evacuate after the site is attacked, afaik.
The new (villainous) agents make up plans and conspiracies of their own, but how appropriately do they react to other actor’s plans if they know about them, especially ones they cannot stop? Like if a quester leaked their plan to steal an artifact from a dragon, could rival questers/quest-givers cancel their plans to do the same, instead opting for an ambush?
Post by: Silverwing235 on November 25, 2020, 07:52:09 am
Regarding the myth/magic content, will the AI respond preemptively to foreknown world events? For instance, if a given region is going to shift to become a demonic hellscape when the planets align, and the date (and implications) of this alignment are common knowledge in that world, one would expect nearby civilizations to evacuate the area as the date approaches; if an immortal being's lover is cursed to sleep for 700 years, then as the curse nears its end that being might choose to return to the tomb where their lover sleeps in order to meet them when they awaken; and so on for a variety of other prophecies, curses and such where important magical events or changes in the world are knowable in advance. Is this sort of preemptive action on the part of ingame beings or civilizations planned for the myth/magic content, or even feasible to implement?
On that topic, how much does the AI currently care about future events? I know we have refugees, but those evacuate after the site is attacked, afaik.
The new (villainous) agents make up plans and conspiracies of their own, but how appropriately do they react to other actor’s plans if they know about them, especially ones they cannot stop? Like if a quester leaked their plan to steal an artifact from a dragon, could rival questers/quest-givers cancel their plans to do the same, instead opting for an ambush?
I put in some boldface to indicate what looks to be a screwup, if you wouldn't mind...
Post by: Buttery_Mess on November 26, 2020, 08:36:40 am
Post by: voliol on November 26, 2020, 08:56:12 am
Quote from: FotF answer October 2020
The current Linux/Mac versions are not sellable (this is my fault, not the porting volunteers, obviously, since in the one case I never made a proper Mac bundle, and in the other, I never figured out how to do libraries/symlinks/wtvr in a wholesome way, and both these things are well beyond me), so we need to work through that before we can release on those platforms - this seems more feasible in the near-term than the rest, but it is not done yet. That'll likely be a whole discussion with Kitfox, whether it works in the existing partially-open-source framework or something new.
Post by: clinodev on November 26, 2020, 09:10:41 am
I'm sure this has been asked already, but is there going to be a linux version of the Steam release available?
voliol gave the official answer while I was typing, but I'll hit send anyway :D
It in fact has been asked several times in various places. My interpretation of the answers is that he'd like to do commercial versions for all three current OSs, but will only do them if he can guarantee the quality standard he insists on for the Windows version. It sounds like he won't know for sure whether that will be possible with either linux or MacOS until late in the release process.
Purely my semi-educated guess here, but I bet he finds doing a version with Steam supported-ish SteamOS/Debian is relatively simple, and failing that, you'll probably be able to work out a Proton or WINE-type solution pretty easily for yourself. As for MacOS, oh boy.
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on November 27, 2020, 09:54:56 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 28, 2020, 01:47:06 am
Post by: eightball8776 on November 30, 2020, 10:24:03 am
3. Lastly, the game has the capability to theoretically generate thousand year histories or even longer. However, it usually takes an extremely long time to generate them; even on the best computers out there. Do you see any way of speeding up the process of creating large histories and if so, it is in the cards?
Post by: Silverwing235 on November 30, 2020, 11:07:26 am
1. Apart from using magic, are their other ways that civilizations or other factions could treat magic. Like instead of accepting it and actively using it, could they be more bent on something like eradicating it?
You may want to rewrite or clarify this one - devlog says yes.
Quote from: devlog
* Removing or reawakening magic in the world
Post by: Beag on November 30, 2020, 03:18:33 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on November 30, 2020, 08:18:34 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on November 30, 2020, 09:08:18 pm
Is there any possibility that the limit on zone sizes might also be lifted?
Post by: clinodev on November 30, 2020, 11:45:19 pm
I’ve heard that the next version is going to remove the 31x31 limit on stockpile sizes.
Is there any possibility that the limit on zone sizes might also be lifted?
Mmm. Paint all the things, including rooms in the z dimension, so dwarves will finally appreciate lovely 5 story Romanesque dining halls. 8)
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 01, 2020, 01:16:10 pm
I'm sure this has been asked already, but is there going to be a linux version of the Steam release available?
Fixed so Toady One can see it.
Post by: Toady One on December 01, 2020, 09:58:50 pm
Quote from: Nilsolm
1. You mentioned in the previous reply that some long-standing bugs are planned to be fixed for the Premium update. Do you have some vague idea what bugs can be addressed here in time? Bins, military finickiness, civil wars?
2. I haven't heard much about planned changes to the legends mode interface yet. Any concrete plans here? Better navigation, search, maybe event filtering?
3. Related, but probably more of a long-term thing: Would it be possible to make legends mode accessible from other game modes? Because I feel like that's where most of the game's true depth is, but that depth isn't really visible when playing adventure or fortress mode. Alternatively, have you thought about using the UI revamp to expose more legends info where that would make sense, for instance on artefacts' or visitors' history?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206716#msg8206716
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206719#msg8206719
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206728#msg8206728
Nilsolm (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206753#msg8206753
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206796#msg8206796
1. Yeah, PatrikLundell's response is more or less where I am at here. I don't expect to have much to say until I get started and make some actual progress, though I'll be able to mention fixes as they come up, rather than waiting until the release - though in the case of a 0.47.05 release before the Steam stuff, maybe it'll just pop up.
2. Hyperlinks are all we've really decided on. Some filtering is possible, but I can't filter on the complete text (there is way too much of it that needs to be generated.) But cross-referencing, say, one historical figure's mentions within another's would be doable.
3. Manveru Taurënér's response applies here - artifacts and visitors are two of the most plot-linked things there are, so we'd have to be very careful. It'd certainly be reasonable to know anything that carried a person or object's reputation to your fort entity/citizens, and we do have some tools to get at those events specifically.
Quote from: mwanafalsafa
In the Steam version, to what extent will we be able to implement our own graphics not only for the 'in-game' tiles but also for the new UI menus and other elements? Basically, I'd like to be able to play with ASCII tileset/graphics and my own custom UI elements to match the ASCII look and feel. Can this be a thing?
I haven't set up any sort of scripting language stuff, if that's what you mean. But all of the tiles used by the UI are moddable.
Quote from: MalroktheIII
1:With the siege rework, will necromancers (and similar night creatures) be affected, as far as tactics go?
2:Will the personality and/or emotional state, in addition of a commanding officer affect tactics (or even lead to mistakes on the sieging armies part)?
3:Will army morale or, possibly general army mood (eg: the general mood of the sieging army is vengeful, after you assassinated their commanding officer with a balista) be a thing? (Or if it is, will it be a more significant factor?
3b:If morale/mood is a thing, how deep would it go (whole army, squads, all of a certain race or religion in an army, etc)
4:Are/Will actual officers which can lead an army/part of an army be a thing?
5:Will importance be given to certain groups an an army, with certain groups being treated as expendable (eg: mindless undead, trolls, less skilled squads), with others being granted specialized tasks, like flanking while some of the expendable keeps the fort busy, or going in to take prisoners and loot (and then maybe running off) (Perhaps the officers backstory (race, personality, current civ, previous civs, religious affiliation, orders, likes/dislikes, current mood) might effect it
6:Will enemies attempt to take and hold (and maybe even fortify) sections of fort, if they feel that going further in (without time to dig) means death (eg: you have a trap hall between your forges and farms, and they only have the forges), perhaps using/looting the sections they took, only destroying it (after taking all the valuables they can steal) if they are about to be driven out.
7:I saw something about conquerors adding new (and possibly humiliating) things to the forts they take. What other things besides that would they add? What does it entail?
8: Will (especially if you abandon the fort during a siege) any prisoners/ slaves be taken from your populations.
9:Will there be any direct/special behaviors for certain armies eg: elves/goblins eating corpses, or necromancers taking time to raise the dead between attack waves, or humans making actual camps which they rest in between waves (like, actual constructions, as opposed to them sitting in a corner or something) or dwarves digging down and releasing the hfs?(joke, don’t make dwarves so that please)
10:Will invading enemies have new goals besides conquering the fortress (or, maybe having secondary goals to fall back on if they fail to conquer the fort)
Feel free to ignore the examples here, these would probably do better in suggestions.
Some examples would be stealing/recovering(if the fort stole it) an artifact, freeing prisoners (cage traps), secretly subverting defenses (secret tunnels), acting as a vanguard for a larger force (Lay enough infrastructure down and soften the fort enough do that the incoming force can crush it),Doing a certain amount of damage/killings/kidnappings (either as retribution, a culling, a demand for tribute, or, if used alternately, a draft/tithe), killing/kidnapping a king/militia captain/ other position holder, killing/kidnapping a non-position holder, a cleansing (killing vampires, werecreatures, and necromancers specifically), ethnic cleansing (kill elves only (like those tavern dancers)), looting as much as possible, taking slaves/prisoners, or a scouting mission (probe defenses).
10a:If you would add extra goals, would some of them be tied to the villain system (assuming you add the left out features at some point), eg: a spy telling the anti necromancer alliance that you specifically harbor necromancers(which might be false), causing for them to send a force to slay the existential threat, or a spy making a secret tunnel for the goblins, or a villain dwarf becoming king by convincing the goblin spy to send information such that the next siege is out to specifically kidnap/kill the king.
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8207592#msg8207592
Certainly lengthy suggestions especially should go over to the suggestions forum where they can be read and discussed. Here I'm just going to be able to say that I'm not sure exactly what's going to happen in the post-Steam army update. Stuff like #1/#2 are equally likely in their way.
Oddly, #3b is easier the more drilled down you go, since we already have some individual thoughts for people (though only a few of them affect battles, and not much from what I remember, especially in sieges) - we don't have a lot of civ vs. civ thinking that influences individuals outside of "fight!", though there's a bit of it outside of invasions.
Army structure has been strange - we've added some of it, vaguely, with squads and lieutenants, but there's no real hierarchy and it doesn't really happen at all with enemies in sieges.
No idea how far we'll get with specific tactics. We have a few random things listed on the dev page, including some tools and adaptation, but in practice if any of those prove to be too complicated/esoteric (e.g. grappling hooks) we'll pivot to some different stuff.
Quote from: ror6ax
I wanted to bring up (lack of) shadows of the mountains.
Slopes have their individual shadows - on the last email update images the "sun" seems to be in the "north". If there is a shadow at all - it's not midday, hence it would naturally follow that a mountain of z levels above would have a multiplying, overlapping shadow that extends on the grass that's below it on the screen.
Seeing that change over time would also be insanely beneficial for immersion.
As I recollect, we set up the ramp shadows the way they are because they read better that way, and it was difficult enough to get them to feel like ramps at all. We're not planning to have them move or anything.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Regarding Steam: Given DF's extreme long-term development roadmap, are you planning to release the game labeled as Early Access? Also, will Steam have its' own bug reporting, or will you redirect Steam players to Mantis?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8209293#msg8209293
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8209315#msg8209315
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8209319#msg8209319
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8209347#msg8209347
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8209382#msg8209382
ror6ax: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8209664#msg8209664
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8209685#msg8209685
We figured that if we go Early Access, it'll just be Early Access forever. The other way's not perfect either. But just doing a standard release is the current idea.
I'm not sure what the bug reporting vibe is on Steam generally - I see a lot of stuff in forums there, as I recollect, whether there's a tracker or not, and I imagine we'll have our work cut out for us, like in the old days here on the forum when it was also the bug tracker, but with more people.
Quote from: FrankVill
How much of done graphic work could be represented in adventure mode in this moment? How differents are both modes respect to tiles or interfaces implementation? Could it mean double task?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8209382#msg8209382
We had that news item a bit ago with the black bear pet in adventure mode - that was all using the current tiles. For the in-game play area, aside from a few things we have to figure out interface-wise like tracks and sound markers, etc., it all pretty much works. There are lots of menus and the travel/log stuff that'll need their own work. It's quite a bit, but it's not double the work for sure.
Quote from: ror6ax
1. Have you considered opening an official DF swag shop? It would surely put a few coins in the piggybank...
2. Since the beta is not in the cards, could we get the next best thing - more screenshots of your test runs? I'm waiting Thursdays like a madman only to have few tiny cropped images to look at.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8211132#msg8211132
ror6ax (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8211160#msg8211160
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8211237#msg8211237
1. Nothing new and concrete has come up as I recall, just a bunch of odd ideas floating around. We're still trying to wind down the story/crayon stuff.
2. There's not much to see that isn't covered in the smaller shots. But now that we have dwarves and the beginnings of the top-level menus/buttons, we've been cropping less, though crops still seem good, because they focus in on the new art, which is the point.
Quote from: Mim
2. M >= (aSY/wSY + (A+1)*aSF/wSF) * (10 + 2*a_quality) / (Sha * w_quality)
Where does this equation come from? I went on a wild goose choose through the Internet to try and figure this one out, but to no avail. On the plus side, I learned a lot about fracture mechanics.
Here is the link to my original question, also: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8192435#msg8192435
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8212462#msg8212462
Like last time, the equation isn't from a source and doesn't actually appear in the code in that form. I'm presuming it's roughly aligned with the code based on whatever, but like last time, probably not 100% accurate. In the code there are four separate if clauses that lead to different adjustment factors (there are x10 and x5 thrown in here and there just for feel in tests), and they may or may not add up to the expression on the right, more or less, and those bits separately determine how much the effective momentum is changed in the case of a yield/fracture/break (this isn't just a flat 5% figure as stated in the wiki, but depends on the relative material values) as the calculation moves on to the next armor/tissue layer.
As Putnam says, we have quality and sharpness, which have no units, and we have to fiddle around to get them more or less respected when deciding if an edged weapon penetrates a given layer or if it starts being treated as a blunt weapon from then on, so none of these can really be satisfying without a lot more specification of what those values mean/affect.
Quote
Quote from: Iä! RIAKTOR!Why RAISED_GHOST interactions are currently removed from the game?Quote from: Iä! RIAKTOR!I know big part of comminity that like to play with funny bugs, like catsplosion. Why you don't release 'unstable' version of Villains update with buggy ghosts?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8212084#msg8212084
delphonso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8215142#msg8215142
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8215145#msg8215145
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8215150#msg8215150
Yeah, these weren't fun bugs. It doesn't run properly/at all, as I recall, and probably causes some insidious corruption as well.
Quote from: ror6ax
Will there be a fix of famously useless professions / workshop entries before Steam release? As far as I am aware it's only a matter of adding some entries in raw files so it should be really easy compared to all the bug-fixing.
-
Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.
On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213280#msg8213280
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213286#msg8213286
MC: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213307#msg8213307
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213393#msg8213393
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213594#msg8213594
I don't have anything to add to the comments really. It's reasonable, somewhat annoying if unchanged, but there's lots to do.
Quote from: Su
regarding your latest blog post - will the "v-q-t-k look-and-do-stuff command set" be unified into one keyboard command? it's always tripped me up that they all do slightly different subsets of what feels like should be the same thing.
also, don't take this as a complaint or anything, i'm just curious - how often do you update the development page?
As usual, we're going mouse first on this one, and what we're ending up with is, yeah, something entirely different, where we are trying to have one main window per type (so building items and building queue would not be completely different, and more of the creature stuff should be pulled together.) The keyboard stuff will follow this direction, and so at the minimum, I really doubt the t/q distinction is going to survive. We'll have to see how the rest of the navigation works once it is working at all.
Dev page: It's just awaiting its time for regular development to resume. I haven't integrated it with the shift to Steam stuff, which somehow seemed like a relatively small detour in the grand scheme of things.
Quote from: ror6ax
Can we have a separate thread for Steam achievement ideas?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213594#msg8213594
Quote from: ror6ax
Just curious, is there an integration test suite or every release gets manually playtested for not introducing bugs?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213738#msg8213738
ror6ax (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213744#msg8213744
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213764#msg8213764
Yeah, there's nothing more than what we can manage ourselves. There are things I look for, and some tests I run. These catch plenty of problems, but it's not going to catch everything, especially with all-new stuff that doesn't have checks built up. As mentioned in the replies, we're thinking of doing a slower roll-out for the Steam stuff, mainly because there are likely to be some technical issues that affect pretty broad swaths of people that we can probably patch up on the way through.
Quote from: Nilsolm
What are the current plans for alchemy? Any chance for some of them to get implemented during the myths & magic arc?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8213929#msg8213929
Nilsolm (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8214308#msg8214308
Not a lot has changed since those snippets, of course, but on the question of procedural recipes, yeah, we've already thrown some into the prototype and it's part of the plan, for whatever magic type uses stuff, pretty much.
Quote from: Ekaton
Would you consider using professional impact analysis for different types of weapons to adjust the way armour and shield works in DF? A good example of a decent analysis of how shields work against arrows can be found here: https://youtu.be/y6IlEUm_Eo4 This channel has quite a lot of different tests, using different weapons and types of armour. I thought it might be useful.
I take suggestions over in the suggestions forum, and I'd certainly consider stuff like this, though it's difficult to sit down and watch a lot of videos as I go through there, even in the 10 minute range.
Quote
Quote from: green_meklarRegarding the myth/magic content, will the AI respond preemptively to foreknown world events? For instance, if a given region is going to shift to become a demonic hellscape when the planets align, and the date (and implications) of this alignment are common knowledge in that world, one would expect nearby civilizations to evacuate the area as the date approaches; if an immortal being's lover is cursed to sleep for 700 years, then as the curse nears its end that being might choose to return to the tomb where their lover sleeps in order to meet them when they awaken; and so on for a variety of other prophecies, curses and such where important magical events or changes in the world are knowable in advance. Is this sort of preemptive action on the part of ingame beings or civilizations planned for the myth/magic content, or even feasible to implement?Quote from: voliolOn that topic, how much does the AI currently care about future events? I know we have refugees, but those evacuate after the site is attacked, afaik.
The new (villainous) agents make up plans and conspiracies of their own, but how appropriately do they react to other actor’s plans if they know about them, especially ones they cannot stop? Like if a quester leaked their plan to steal an artifact from a dragon, could rival questers/quest-givers cancel their plans to do the same, instead opting for an ambush?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8215522#msg8215522
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8215732#msg8215732
Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8216560#msg8216560
It's certainly feasible - Eric Blank pointed out the invasion/refugee example, and I think in the rumor case they can actually leave a week in advance (not that the army's march normally takes a week.) This highlights the main issue, that things are all really specific and have to be planned for one by one, unless you set up a framework, and then the framework often becomes a problem for a variety of reasons. I've thought about prophecies a bit, but haven't given any broader prediction framework much thought so far.
It's the same for voliol's larger question - there are places here and there where some thing is considered, or some knowledge is used, but it's nowhere like a complete system. Every little reaction needs to be added one at a time - that's not strictly true, if you have some sort of decision framework, which is kind of what the reputations end up being, but that's hopelessly vague when it comes to plots vs. plots etc. It'll improve a bit over time, but I doubt we'll make any amazing strides here.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
I'm sure this has been asked already, but is there going to be a linux version of the Steam release available?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8217128#msg8217128
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8217133#msg8217133
Nothing to add to those replies yet.
Quote from: Iä! RIAKTOR!
Will you add tobacco into next Villains updates? This shall be great!
It wasn't part of the plan!
Quote from: MaxTheFox
What do you think about adding discrimination between species? I don't mean within species as that might hit a bit close to home, so to speak... but certain races (species) just not trusting members of each other due to past events is common in fantasy works and the game would feel a bit incomplete without that.
I'd been kind of leaning away from it in theory, but in practice, there's obviously some dwarf-elf tension in the existing diplomacy text, and the ethics stuff does do it indirectly (though at the entity level and creature types aren't bound to entities in history), and we have all the new religious discrimination stuff, including group-level memory of past events, so I'm not sure where it'll loop back around to at this point. But I'd need a stronger reason to directly reproduce a racial discrimination model, in the same way we haven't recreated gender discrimination etc.
Quote from: eightball8776
1. Apart from using magic, are their other ways that civilizations or other factions could treat magic. Like instead of accepting it and actively using it, could they be more bent on something like eradicating it?
2. With all of the changes you have mentioned are planned for the Myth & Magic update, it seems to me that the current age system in world gen will be rather outdated. How will it change as you start to add myth features to the game? Will there be more set ages the world can pass through or are you planning on adding a way to randomly generate new ages?
3. Lastly, the game has the capability to theoretically generate thousand year histories or even longer. However, it usually takes an extremely long time to generate them; even on the best computers out there. Do you see any way of speeding up the process of creating large histories and if so, it is in the cards?
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8218668#msg8218668
1. We're hoping so, yeah! Understanding "views on magic" is one of the goals for personal/entity behavior. Partially because it's so bad with necromancy right now ha ha.
2. Yeah, it'll blow up immediately. I'm not sure what replaces it - the myth generator itself has something to say about it, given how there'll be some larger structures over everything (whether we're talking about cycles or the apocalypse or wtvr). However, the old "fading" age system does encapsulate the kind of default "lots of stuff is going to die" model that comes for free with a violent game, so I imagine it'll linger in some way. But the main thing will be respecting the myths and what they say about the world(s), insofar as people understand them, possibly - that is, I'm not sure we won't end up with a distinction between objective ages and civ-based ages (assuming objective ends up meaning anything here.)
3. The main way to speed it up is to make it do less, at this point. That's kind of what the myth generator is, in some way. But if you want a 3000 year history with an equal granularity to what we have now, it has to come from somewhere. There are lots of optimizations to do there, but no silver bullets left as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Beag
I remember you said animal people may not gain the same sprite treatment as other races, does this mean if we play animal person adventurers our equipment will not be visible on their sprites?
We haven't cut their bodies into pieces, but we've actually maintained a uniform body size for equipment reasons, as I recollect, even though e.g. elephant people should be much larger than beetle people, say. So it's still left as a possibility.
Quote from: TheFlame52
How exactly does (L)ooking for vermin work in adventure mode? Does it draw from creature populations from that area? What kind of vermin can one find using it? Is it even possible to get a (wild) pet fairy by looking?
It checks the local population for a local "soil" type vermin. So it shouldn't pull up fairies, though you should be able to 'g'et any wild fairy flitting about that you stand near, I think. The assumption is that your search is poking about in the grass/dirt, rather than looking around in the air. If there's a colony nearby, it also biases the search toward finding an individual member of that creature type (like ants or bees.)
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
I’ve heard that the next version is going to remove the 31x31 limit on stockpile sizes.
Is there any possibility that the limit on zone sizes might also be lifted?
Yeah, I think that happened when I updated the interface there.
Post by: clinodev on December 01, 2020, 10:50:49 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on December 02, 2020, 04:30:02 am
Post by: Showbiz on December 02, 2020, 04:43:57 am
2. Will it be visually perceptible if a creature is hurt or will it be shown what body parts are injured/missing?
Post by: LordL on December 02, 2020, 06:30:25 am
1)What are the bounds between creation myth and actual world history? Will there be a strict bound where the world "has been created" and the year 1 begins? Will we be able to affect it for example by playing adventure mode while gods do their active job?
2)I've heard that creation myth will do explanations for the afterlife. How will afterlife be incorporated into the game? Is it gonna track what happens to historical figures in their afterlife? Maybe they even do some celestial carrier and then will be able to interact with gods? Or maybe going to hell and be able to become demons somehow?
3)If things from previous really happen in some form, how will it affect the adventure mode? Does this mean that death of your adventurer is no longer a gameover?
Post by: clinodev on December 02, 2020, 06:57:19 am
1. Any chance we get a GOG release?
This has been addressed elsewhere by Kitfox Games, who have been engaged to handle these sorts of details.
They said basically that they weren't opposed to the idea, but already had extensive connections with itch.io and Steam, but none with GOG.
I like GOG myself, as I'm a fan of retro games they often sell for cheap, but I don't really care where I buy DF. Is there any particular reason you have for wanting to buy it from GOG that I could pass on to Kitfox?
Post by: Silverwing235 on December 02, 2020, 08:45:35 am
1)What are the bounds between creation myth and actual world history? Will there be a strict bound where the world "has been created" and the year 1 begins? Will we be able to affect it for example by playing adventure mode while gods do their active job?
2)I've heard that creation myth will do explanations for the afterlife. How will afterlife be incorporated into the game? Is it gonna track what happens to historical figures in their afterlife? Maybe they even do some celestial carrier and then will be able to interact with gods? Or maybe going to hell and be able to become demons somehow?
3)If things from previous really happen in some form, how will it affect the adventure mode? Does this mean that death of your adventurer is no longer a gameover?
Applying a much-needed fix. Entry #2 is kind of jumping the gun, by the way, which means there's nothing to speak of just yet.
Post by: LordL on December 02, 2020, 08:55:46 am
2. Will it be visually perceptible if a creature is hurt or will it be shown what body parts are injured/missing?We have already seen footages of guts so yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LaVZn2QKuA&list=PLcOt9GXNrkgiejOzLVHGU8ra8VwAv0Knw&index=3&ab_channel=Blind
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 02, 2020, 09:01:20 am
1. I'd expect it to be the same as it is currently, i.e. Myth world creation plays out, then year 1 happens and history starts. However, the myth stuff doesn't end, as whatever it created still exists and can influence the world. A hypothetical example would be a prophecy generated during myth gen that then gets fulfilled during history, and another might be that a godlike myth generated entity severs connections to a magic realm or opens a connection to another.
1)What are the bounds between creation myth and actual world history? Will there be a strict bound where the world "has been created" and the year 1 begins? Will we be able to affect it for example by playing adventure mode while gods do their active job?
2)I've heard that creation myth will do explanations for the afterlife. How will afterlife be incorporated into the game? Is it gonna track what happens to historical figures in their afterlife? Maybe they even do some celestial carrier and then will be able to interact with gods? Or maybe going to hell and be able to become demons somehow?
3)If things from previous really happen in some form, how will it affect the adventure mode? Does this mean that death of your adventurer is no longer a gameover?
2/3. It most likely won't be any implementation in the first Myth & Magic release (and possibly not in the first arc either). When implemented, its effects would depend on what the afterlife is like. If your soul gets sent to heaven/hell I can imagine a (late) implementation of continued play in those places, while reincarnation might offer you the option to be reincarnated upon death, starting as a new character but with more or less knowledge intact. It all depends on what those afterlives look like. In a fully mundane world the afterlife is just a myth, so death is the end of it.
If there is play in the afterlife, it's not unreasonable to allow an adventurer to try to claw himself back to the world of the living, either in the afterlife form or somehow regaining the previous form or a similar one (i.e. become e.g. a dwarf again). It wouldn't be unreasonable to allow for an Orpheus trip to the afterlife either.
Post by: FrankVill on December 02, 2020, 04:22:52 pm
At the level of physical appearance, dwarves and elves clearly differ from each other, but at a psychological level there are no elements that allow me to differentiate them (perhaps I have overlooked some detail that may currently be present).
Looking to the future:
- How do you consider differentiating the personalities between two or several races / species to the point that they may have some incompatibilities between them? For example, that a race thinks in a certain way due to its genetics.
- Or, on the contrary, do you think it is better to have a common psychological framework for each intelligent creature and let external elements (culture, religion, professions, civilizations...) shape and define the psychology of each one?
Post by: MalroktheIII on December 02, 2020, 04:51:13 pm
2:Secondarily, in the magic arc, how much could dead dwarves effect fort mode? Right now we have ghosts, but how much bigger is it going to get on that front?
3:Thirdly in them magic arc, (Someone's probably asked this, but I'll ask anyway): what level of magic would you be able to pull off in fort mode without "special preparation" (eg: use of dump piles or pitting or something, as opposed to just setting a dwarf to a task)
4:I know that we'll probably eventually be able to play as other races, once you flesh them out enough, so, once you can, if you get conquered by an enemy force, would you have the option to play them controlling the fortress? (or alternatively, just as your conquered dwarves, but oppressed)
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 02, 2020, 04:54:31 pm
In fortress mode, I can see a meticulous and detailed description of the physical appearance and psychological state of each of my dwarves. They are all unique in terms of their way of being, preferences, memories, etc ... The same can also be observed in residents of different races, such as an elf who lives in my fortress.The currently chosen path is to have the civ define its members, which is why "goblin" invasions can consist of mostly non goblins, and visiting goblins don't generally have the "murder: private matter" ethics, because they tend to come from non goblin civs (the exception is the performance troupes, where its members [and not restricted to goblin ones] can be members of a goblin civ as well, and then act as spies).
At the level of physical appearance, dwarves and elves clearly differ from each other, but at a psychological level there are no elements that allow me to differentiate them (perhaps I have overlooked some detail that may currently be present).
Looking to the future:
- How do you consider differentiating the personalities between two or several races / species to the point that they may have some incompatibilities between them? For example, that a race thinks in a certain way due to its genetics.
- Or, on the contrary, do you think it is better to have a common psychological framework for each intelligent creature and let external elements (culture, religion, professions, civilizations...) shape and define the psychology of each one?
If, in a post Myth & Magic world, you'd have widely different species it might be possible to have divides too large to cross, e.g. a fully carnivorous species (i.e. one that can't process vegetable matter as food at all) that considers everything but members of its own species as prey, or hive mind species whose thought processes are too different from everyone else for them to integrate into other societies. However, if we're on the level of races (using the old definition of "species" as too far separated to produce fertile offspring), then the current DF races would probably be races, i.e. sub divisions among a single species once inter racial offspring has been handled, and in that situation there would probably be too little difference between them to have genetic racial mental incompatibilities.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 03, 2020, 03:05:06 am
1: With the magic arc, how disgustingly powerful do you expect super soldier programs to get? Are there going to be any restrictions or drawbacks that prevent or dissuade players from giving their dwarves most/every power/curse that is generated in their world? If so, have you thought of any yet?Hopefully some interesting answers to come, but the main thing to remember is that it won't be the same every time. Mythgen cooks up procedurally generated connections and meaning for innate and learned magic powers with some pushes in certain directions for different races probably.
2:Secondarily, in the magic arc, how much could dead dwarves effect fort mode? Right now we have ghosts, but how much bigger is it going to get on that front?
3:Thirdly in them magic arc, (Someone's probably asked this, but I'll ask anyway): what level of magic would you be able to pull off in fort mode without "special preparation" (eg: use of dump piles or pitting or something, as opposed to just setting a dwarf to a task)
4:I know that we'll probably eventually be able to play as other races, once you flesh them out enough, so, once you can, if you get conquered by an enemy force, would you have the option to play them controlling the fortress? (or alternatively, just as your conquered dwarves, but oppressed)
So in one world, Dwarves have the innate ability to lob magma balls. How fun. And in another dwarves have the arcane knowledge of how to change a bucket of water into a bucket of booze by gathering runes from the four corners of the earth (at the cost of only half of their blood). Great...
Post by: voliol on December 03, 2020, 03:59:55 am
1: With the magic arc, how disgustingly powerful do you expect super soldier programs to get? Are there going to be any restrictions or drawbacks that prevent or dissuade players from giving their dwarves most/every power/curse that is generated in their world? If so, have you thought of any yet?
2:Secondarily, in the magic arc, how much could dead dwarves effect fort mode? Right now we have ghosts, but how much bigger is it going to get on that front?
3:Thirdly in them magic arc, (Someone's probably asked this, but I'll ask anyway): what level of magic would you be able to pull off in fort mode without "special preparation" (eg: use of dump piles or pitting or something, as opposed to just setting a dwarf to a task)
4:I know that we'll probably eventually be able to play as other races, once you flesh them out enough, so, once you can, if you get conquered by an enemy force, would you have the option to play them controlling the fortress? (or alternatively, just as your conquered dwarves, but oppressed)
Hopefully some interesting answers to come, but the main thing to remember is that it won't be the same every time. Mythgen cooks up procedurally generated connections and meaning for innate and learned magic powers with some pushes in certain directions for different races probably.
So in one world, Dwarves have the innate ability to lob magma balls. How fun. And in another dwarves have the arcane knowledge of how to change a bucket of water into a bucket of booze by gathering runes from the four corners of the earth (at the cost of only half of their blood). Great...
There’s also the notion of having pre-worldgen sliders to customize the myth aspects of your world. So you may set your world to be a hotpot of magic with hexagonal beings of pure light running about, or totally mundane with all the myths and magic being fictional, lacking even dwarves. Or something inbetweeen.
The exact sliders aren’t decided though, and I doubt they will before work on mythgen begins.
On 1:
Quote from: DFTalk 24
Rainseeker: Right. So, theoretically, you could have a magic system where it's completely overpowered and you could cause flowers to sprout from everyone's eyeballs and then win.Courtesy to JCsuper for the transcription, you can read it here: https://pastebin.com/knW3gzmw
Toady One: Yeah, well, there's no winning because the other people that can do that can do that too, right? I think the idea about balance, in this case, we have to be careful with, because a fantasy universe is inherently unbalanced by its fantasy elements. And that's the whole point, right?[...]
Post by: LordL on December 03, 2020, 12:46:34 pm
I think that, since there are a lot of mythical concepts of afterlife out there, afterlife is gonna work differently in different worlds. Maybe we will be able to choose the general concepts like reincarnation, going to either heaven and hell, etc in the world settings[color=lime_green]1. I'd expect it to be the same as it is currently, i.e. Myth world creation plays out, then year 1 happens and history starts. However, the myth stuff doesn't end, as whatever it created still exists and can influence the world. A hypothetical example would be a prophecy generated during myth gen that then gets fulfilled during history, and another might be that a godlike myth generated entity severs connections to a magic realm or opens a connection to another.
1)What are the bounds between creation myth and actual world history? Will there be a strict bound where the world "has been created" and the year 1 begins? Will we be able to affect it for example by playing adventure mode while gods do their active job?
2)I've heard that creation myth will do explanations for the afterlife. How will afterlife be incorporated into the game? Is it gonna track what happens to historical figures in their afterlife? Maybe they even do some celestial carrier and then will be able to interact with gods? Or maybe going to hell and be able to become demons somehow?
3)If things from previous really happen in some form, how will it affect the adventure mode? Does this mean that death of your adventurer is no longer a gameover?
[/color]
2/3. It most likely won't be any implementation in the first Myth & Magic release (and possibly not in the first arc either). When implemented, its effects would depend on what the afterlife is like. If your soul gets sent to heaven/hell I can imagine a (late) implementation of continued play in those places, while reincarnation might offer you the option to be reincarnated upon death, starting as a new character but with more or less knowledge intact. It all depends on what those afterlives look like. In a fully mundane world the afterlife is just a myth, so death is the end of it.
If there is play in the afterlife, it's not unreasonable to allow an adventurer to try to claw himself back to the world of the living, either in the afterlife form or somehow regaining the previous form or a similar one (i.e. become e.g. a dwarf again). It wouldn't be unreasonable to allow for an Orpheus trip to the afterlife either.
Post by: eerr on December 03, 2020, 09:19:07 pm
What do the evil villains do in their off-time?
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 04, 2020, 05:02:48 am
Based on necro tower spoils, necros seem to spend a lot of time writing books. Many, but certainly not all, on the secret of life and death.
What do the evil villains do in their off-time?
Some necros obviously spend time performing hideous experiments, which may or may not be considered off time activities.
One might also assume "regular" villains to occasionally go to taverns to actually socialize, drink, and terrorize the other patrons with karaoke (the last with or without evil intent).
Post by: Murr2 on December 04, 2020, 12:20:32 pm
Post by: voliol on December 04, 2020, 12:55:44 pm
Probably been asked before but will magic be able to use components? so the 50 barrels of dragonfly blood that the traders keep trying to pawn off on me will have some real (non Armok-related, of course) use?Yes. Not sure which materials/items will be up for picks though. I think all the materials in the mythgen demos we’ve seen were procedurally generated, but those demos are far from representative of the final product.
Post by: Murr2 on December 04, 2020, 01:15:49 pm
Post by: mgsicko on December 07, 2020, 03:28:13 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 07, 2020, 06:25:40 am
how much are we, as players, going to be able to influence myth gen? will it have its own section in advanced world generation to determine things? E.g if i really want a world which is bound to fall during an apocalypse, is that something i will be able to generate on purpose?The prototype Toady demonstrated was all controllable by text raws so seems like it's to be developed that way, yes. Plus a fixed world editor is to be part of one of the releases in the arc, so you'll have full control over what Mythgen pulls up (amongst other things). Of course, issues might crop up, changing any of this once the work begins in a couple of years.
Post by: Showbiz on December 08, 2020, 05:55:50 am
I buy my games preferably on GOG because I like em DRM free. There is no guarantee what happends to my library if steam goes bankrupt or will be bought by somebody else. Unlikely but possible.1. Any chance we get a GOG release?
This has been addressed elsewhere by Kitfox Games, who have been engaged to handle these sorts of details.
They said basically that they weren't opposed to the idea, but already had extensive connections with itch.io and Steam, but none with GOG.
I like GOG myself, as I'm a fan of retro games they often sell for cheap, but I don't really care where I buy DF. Is there any particular reason you have for wanting to buy it from GOG that I could pass on to Kitfox?
2. Will it be visually perceptible if a creature is hurt or will it be shown what body parts are injured/missing?We have already seen footages of guts so yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LaVZn2QKuA&list=PLcOt9GXNrkgiejOzLVHGU8ra8VwAv0Knw&index=3&ab_channel=Blind
Thank you!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2020, 06:38:22 am
Game will still be free at Bay12Games when that happens.I buy my games preferably on GOG because I like em DRM free. There is no guarantee what happends to my library if steam goes bankrupt or will be bought by somebody else. Unlikely but possible.1. Any chance we get a GOG release?
This has been addressed elsewhere by Kitfox Games, who have been engaged to handle these sorts of details.
They said basically that they weren't opposed to the idea, but already had extensive connections with itch.io and Steam, but none with GOG.
I like GOG myself, as I'm a fan of retro games they often sell for cheap, but I don't really care where I buy DF. Is there any particular reason you have for wanting to buy it from GOG that I could pass on to Kitfox?2. Will it be visually perceptible if a creature is hurt or will it be shown what body parts are injured/missing?We have already seen footages of guts so yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LaVZn2QKuA&list=PLcOt9GXNrkgiejOzLVHGU8ra8VwAv0Knw&index=3&ab_channel=Blind
Thank you!
And likely approaching 70% complete by then. :)
Post by: Egan_BW on December 08, 2020, 06:44:38 am
I buy my games preferably on GOG because I like em DRM free. There is no guarantee what happends to my library if steam goes bankrupt or will be bought by somebody else. Unlikely but possible.
Buy from Itch then. They're DRM free, same as GOG.
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 08, 2020, 10:20:56 am
No.Game will still be free at Bay12Games when that happens.I buy my games preferably on GOG because I like em DRM free. There is no guarantee what happends to my library if steam goes bankrupt or will be bought by somebody else. Unlikely but possible.1. Any chance we get a GOG release?
This has been addressed elsewhere by Kitfox Games, who have been engaged to handle these sorts of details.
They said basically that they weren't opposed to the idea, but already had extensive connections with itch.io and Steam, but none with GOG.
I like GOG myself, as I'm a fan of retro games they often sell for cheap, but I don't really care where I buy DF. Is there any particular reason you have for wanting to buy it from GOG that I could pass on to Kitfox?2. Will it be visually perceptible if a creature is hurt or will it be shown what body parts are injured/missing?We have already seen footages of guts so yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LaVZn2QKuA&list=PLcOt9GXNrkgiejOzLVHGU8ra8VwAv0Knw&index=3&ab_channel=Blind
Thank you!
And likely approaching 70% complete by then. :)
The Premium version contents would probably not become available on Bay12Games just because the (currently) biggest outlet folds, and there's no reasonable data available to predict when any particular supply model obsolescence or company practice may result in a decision to take the money and run (but Steam and it's Epic clone wannabe have given themselves the rights to do so whenever they feel like it in their EULAs, no questions answered).
However, it seems Itch.io doesn't reserve themselves the right to remove the game from your hard disk (I haven't read their EULA carefully, though).
Post by: Rose on December 08, 2020, 11:05:47 am
Post by: LordL on December 08, 2020, 04:35:34 pm
version
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2020, 05:01:01 pm
Will myth generator make "Adam and Eve" for each civ (or maybe even each species)? That would be very logical. It's strange to see some historical figures born on like year -80 in currentWritten history begins in year 0. Why is it strange that people exist before written history begins?
version
Besides, it's a fantasy game myth generator. Dwarves created from clay, elves created when the clay mates with the moledog of Elestior, etc. Read some fantasy to see how "logical" it tends to be.
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 08, 2020, 05:56:44 pm
Or just read any real world creation myth (like the one about Adam's second wife Eve)...Will myth generator make "Adam and Eve" for each civ (or maybe even each species)? That would be very logical. It's strange to see some historical figures born on like year -80 in currentWritten history begins in year 0. Why is it strange that people exist before written history begins?
version
Besides, it's a fantasy game myth generator. Dwarves created from clay, elves created when the clay mates with the moledog of Elestior, etc. Read some fantasy to see how "logical" it tends to be.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 08, 2020, 09:28:56 pm
Post by: LordL on December 09, 2020, 02:10:19 am
Well anyway it would be good to do something with people being born before year 0. Right now there is just no real explaination.Will myth generator make "Adam and Eve" for each civ (or maybe even each species)? That would be very logical. It's strange to see some historical figures born on like year -80 in currentWritten history begins in year 0. Why is it strange that people exist before written history begins?
version
Besides, it's a fantasy game myth generator. Dwarves created from clay, elves created when the clay mates with the moledog of Elestior, etc. Read some fantasy to see how "logical" it tends to be.
Post by: voliol on December 09, 2020, 02:26:48 am
E.g. the abrahamitic religions have it twice for the humans, and once for the animals, and norse myth also has it twice for the humans. And then there’s the entire deal with (un-)coupled earth and sky beings, often leading to the birth of all gods from a singular source.
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 09, 2020, 04:37:14 am
Lots of people were born before year 0 in the real world, regardless of which of the historically used year counting systems you look at. You really have three phases in the DF chronology:Well anyway it would be good to do something with people being born before year 0. Right now there is just no real explaination.Will myth generator make "Adam and Eve" for each civ (or maybe even each species)? That would be very logical. It's strange to see some historical figures born on like year -80 in currentWritten history begins in year 0. Why is it strange that people exist before written history begins?
version
Besides, it's a fantasy game myth generator. Dwarves created from clay, elves created when the clay mates with the moledog of Elestior, etc. Read some fantasy to see how "logical" it tends to be.
- Myth, which in itself may contain several different stages
- Pre history, which bridges myth and history, for a period of uncertain length before recorded history takes place.
- History, where DF accounts for deeds and events in an orderly fashion.
The characters born before the start of history where thus born during pre history (unless they were directly generated during Myth, of course).
I wouldn't be surprised if Toady would have the ambition to expand pre history eventually, to have a period of broad brush strokes but with limited detail and a limited number of hist figs.
Post by: LordL on December 09, 2020, 06:26:02 am
Lots of people were born before year 0 in the real world, regardless of which of the historically used year counting systems you look at.Well anyway it would be good to do something with people being born before year 0. Right now there is just no real explaination.Will myth generator make "Adam and Eve" for each civ (or maybe even each species)? That would be very logical. It's strange to see some historical figures born on like year -80 in currentWritten history begins in year 0. Why is it strange that people exist before written history begins?
version
Besides, it's a fantasy game myth generator. Dwarves created from clay, elves created when the clay mates with the moledog of Elestior, etc. Read some fantasy to see how "logical" it tends to be.
In the real world year 0 is not the beginning of the Universe. In current version of DF it is.
Post by: Putnam on December 09, 2020, 04:36:55 pm
I buy my games preferably on GOG because I like em DRM free. There is no guarantee what happends to my library if steam goes bankrupt or will be bought by somebody else. Unlikely but possible.
Buy from Itch then. They're DRM free, same as GOG.
And there is no guarantee that the steam version won't be.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 09, 2020, 06:28:16 pm
No. It isn't. When do you think all that erosion is taking place during map generation? Hence people being born in the year -80.Lots of people were born before year 0 in the real world, regardless of which of the historically used year counting systems you look at.Well anyway it would be good to do something with people being born before year 0. Right now there is just no real explaination.Will myth generator make "Adam and Eve" for each civ (or maybe even each species)? That would be very logical. It's strange to see some historical figures born on like year -80 in currentWritten history begins in year 0. Why is it strange that people exist before written history begins?
version
Besides, it's a fantasy game myth generator. Dwarves created from clay, elves created when the clay mates with the moledog of Elestior, etc. Read some fantasy to see how "logical" it tends to be.
In the real world year 0 is not the beginning of the Universe. In current version of DF it is.
"A time before time" is just pre-history.
The beginning of the universe isn't simulated yet, it just happened in some abstracted past. Mythgen will generate that. And since Mythgen will generate the races, there's no need to ask "where did the first dwarf come from".
Will be interesting to see if there's a period between Mythgen and "year 0".
Post by: VineFynn on December 10, 2020, 04:14:15 am
Post by: voliol on December 10, 2020, 04:31:29 am
This has probably been asked before, but will the existence of the Steam build and the accompanying graphics indefinitely add overhead to development, since it needs to be updated?Welcome to the forum, VineFynn! In this thread we use lime green text when asking questions to Toady, as it's easier for him to filter them out that way.
I've already marked yours, for convenience' sake, but you can also do it yourself by using
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]whatever text[/color] and it'll turn out like whatever text.More color codes here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164890.0
And here's a welcome thread for the whole forum, if you wish to stay: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177499.0
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 10, 2020, 05:29:22 am
This has probably been asked before, but will the existence of the Steam build and the accompanying graphics indefinitely add overhead to development, since it needs to be updated?I imagine it's not too much to add for regular development. New stuff that needs to be visualised doesn't get added very often. Mythgen will produce some new critters and scenery maybe, but what's an extra 3 months on top of a multi-year Big Wait. Besides Toady doesn't make the graphics himself so possibly no extra time needed at all.
After all, he'll be developing new stuff with the understanding that official graphics are going to be made for it, rather than trying to retrofit and add catch-up code like he is now.
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 10, 2020, 05:48:12 am
This has probably been asked before, but will the existence of the Steam build and the accompanying graphics indefinitely add overhead to development, since it needs to be updated?As Shonai_Dweller said, the overhead will most likely be limited. Integral support for tile sets means that whatever has to be done to support that will have to be done for new tiles (and there will probably be a fair number of new tiles resulting from Myth & Magic given that there will be new terrain as well as effects, but "a fair number" will most likely be something in the 1-10% range of the current number of tiles). In addition to the code support, there will have to be coordination with the artists, so an official tile set will have some additional overhead above the effort of just supporting tile sets (but I hope reviewing tiles and discussing them with the artists is at least somewhat enjoyable to Toady, rather than just a necessary evil chore).
I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that Steam would be a larger burden over time than tile set support, though (Steam Workshop, achievements, changes to the requirements over time).
It can also be mentioned that as DF grows the effort of integrating new elements into a growing and increasingly complex framework will continue to increase. In that perspective, a better tile set support is just another element in the growth process.
Post by: VineFynn on December 10, 2020, 05:38:21 pm
This has probably been asked before, but will the existence of the Steam build and the accompanying graphics indefinitely add overhead to development, since it needs to be updated?Welcome to the forum, VineFynn! In this thread we use lime green text when asking questions to Toady, as it's easier for him to filter them out that way.
I've already marked yours, for convenience' sake, but you can also do it yourself by usingCode: [Select][color=limegreen]whatever text[/color]and it'll turn out like whatever text.
More color codes here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164890.0
And here's a welcome thread for the whole forum, if you wish to stay: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177499.0
I appreciate the welcome, but I'm not new here, I just forgot the lime :P
Post by: VineFynn on December 10, 2020, 05:40:06 pm
This has probably been asked before, but will the existence of the Steam build and the accompanying graphics indefinitely add overhead to development, since it needs to be updated?As Shonai_Dweller said, the overhead will most likely be limited. Integral support for tile sets means that whatever has to be done to support that will have to be done for new tiles (and there will probably be a fair number of new tiles resulting from Myth & Magic given that there will be new terrain as well as effects, but "a fair number" will most likely be something in the 1-10% range of the current number of tiles). In addition to the code support, there will have to be coordination with the artists, so an official tile set will have some additional overhead above the effort of just supporting tile sets (but I hope reviewing tiles and discussing them with the artists is at least somewhat enjoyable to Toady, rather than just a necessary evil chore).
I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that Steam would be a larger burden over time than tile set support, though (Steam Workshop, achievements, changes to the requirements over time).
It can also be mentioned that as DF grows the effort of integrating new elements into a growing and increasingly complex framework will continue to increase. In that perspective, a better tile set support is just another element in the growth process.
Makes sense. Thanks both.This has probably been asked before, but will the existence of the Steam build and the accompanying graphics indefinitely add overhead to development, since it needs to be updated?I imagine it's not too much to add for regular development. New stuff that needs to be visualised doesn't get added very often. Mythgen will produce some new critters and scenery maybe, but what's an extra 3 months on top of a multi-year Big Wait. Besides Toady doesn't make the graphics himself so possibly no extra time needed at all.
After all, he'll be developing new stuff with the understanding that official graphics are going to be made for it, rather than trying to retrofit and add catch-up code like he is now.
Post by: NordicNooob on December 10, 2020, 10:49:13 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 10, 2020, 10:51:18 pm
No way this hasn't come up some time before given the abundance of other formulas, but what exactly determines a successful dodge/block/parry? Is it skill vs skill alongside whatever debuffs a creature might have plus their attributes, and then that's it? Does size play a factor?Lime green for questions to Toady (assuming no-one else answers in the next few weeks).
Post by: LilyInTheWater on December 11, 2020, 05:01:00 pm
Will there be a slider for us to determine if magic items exist or not and if so can we determine how powerful they are and how common they are?
For example can I make the following scenario happen?:
Urist Weavercave is weaver and a former wizard. He keeps an enchanted ring on him that he found in a random stockpile. Many rings with the same spell litter the fortress as it is a cheap (Only costs a little bit of stamina on the caster's part), but still price-raising enchantment. Goes out into the caves to collect webs. Runs into a giant cave spider, he snaps his fingers and knocks the thing back. The giant cave spider smacks a wall and Urist goes about the rest of his day.
Generally I'm wondering if it's possible to build a fortress economy based off of selling magic items if the created magic system allows it? I like the idea of running a magic fortress and creating the most obnoxiously powerful magic items I can create for fun
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 11, 2020, 05:34:32 pm
I have a billion questions (A whole google doc of them) but I don't wanna overwhelm Toady so I'll trickle my questions out. (Also I'm not sure if you're allowed more than one question per post)Feel free to post as many questions as you like. People post huge lists sometimes. Although try to stay clear of "suggestions", keep them in the suggestions forum (not a rule for rules sake, if your suggestion is good it may well be taken up, but it won't be remembered here. Suggestions forum is proactively checked by Toady/Threetoe).
Will there be a slider for us to determine if magic items exist or not and if so can we determine how powerful they are and how common they are?
For example can I make the following scenario happen?:
Urist Weavercave is weaver and a former wizard. He keeps an enchanted ring on him that he found in a random stockpile. Many rings with the same spell litter the fortress as it is a cheap (Only costs a little bit of stamina on the caster's part), but still price-raising enchantment. Goes out into the caves to collect webs. Runs into a giant cave spider, he snaps his fingers and knocks the thing back. The giant cave spider smacks a wall and Urist goes about the rest of his day.
Generally I'm wondering if it's possible to build a fortress economy based off of selling magic items if the created magic system allows it? I like the idea of running a magic fortress and creating the most obnoxiously powerful magic items I can create for fun
Also, for many things which haven't started development yet, just be aware that the answer may be limited to "sure, we'd like to try that, no clear plans yet".
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 11, 2020, 05:49:52 pm
For the scenario, there will be some kind of sliders controlling abundance and power of magic (although the exact set of sliders haven't been decided on). There will also be various RAW file mechanisms for controlling aspects of the world, and as far as I understand that would be usable to determine the spheres of magic present and I would guess also whether the kinds of magic (magic items, rituals, ...). Thus, your scenario doesn't seem impossible.
Once magic is in but before the economy gets overhauled, it would probably be possible to run a fortress based on selling magic items. Once economy gets back in, there'd probably be some kind of supply and demand involved, so if everyone can make magic items easily, they wouldn't sell for much. If, however, your fortress somehow was the center of magic development and most people didn't know anything about magic, you'd probably be able to churn out easy to make magic items for a pretty profit.
All of that is speculation based on what's been said, though, and magic development is quite some way off yet.
(And, Shonai_Dweller, I think some word incorrection SW has attacked your "Threetoe").
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 11, 2020, 07:43:28 pm
(And, Shonai_Dweller, I think some word incorrection SW has attacked your "Threetoe").Fatal combination of autocorrect, typing on a phone and deteriorating eyesight...
Post by: Gtyx1 on December 16, 2020, 09:18:50 am
This question isn't as consequential, but can you eat vermin if your adventurer is hungry enough?
Post by: Bumber on December 16, 2020, 09:44:31 am
This question isn't as consequential, but can you eat vermin if your adventurer is hungry enough?
Couldn't you test that yourself?
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 18, 2020, 09:25:34 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 18, 2020, 06:42:50 pm
Does bring up the point that, renaming Dwarf Fortress to Dwarf Fortress Classic is incredibly confusing if it really is the same game. Naming the Steam version "Dwarf Fortress Premium" (comes with extra baubles like a tileset and music tracks) would be far more honest.
But, meh, gotta leave marketing to marketing people if you want to make money, I guess.
Post by: clinodev on December 18, 2020, 09:15:07 pm
As for the Premium/Classic language in general, I agree that despite much effort on the part of many of us, it hasn't penetrated the overall community very well after all this time, and is a considerable cause of confusion so far. I would echo Shonai_Dweller's suggestion here that Dwarf Fortress/Premium Dwarf Fortress makes more sense to me.
Post by: clinodev on December 22, 2020, 02:55:02 am
Did you fix the various bugs with dwarven cheese/milk, or just force them on the embark list?
According to the wiki, purring maggots don't appear on cavern level one anymore (with multiple other bugs listed in the report), (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1449) which is the basic reason caravans and the embark menu don't show dwarven cheese/milk since 40d. Additionally, "Tamed purring maggots can't be milked. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3670)", and "After being milked, purring maggots are left inside the workshop as an item. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3668)"
This is, of course, almost embarrassingly trivial, but as someone who came to the game in the post-40d era (I've only played half a decade) since you're looking at it at all, it would be neat for such a storied thing as making dwarven cheese were to generally return to the game. Considering the relative obscurity of "animal traps" these days, there not being any practical reason to use them at all for many years, I wonder if the simplest fix might be to remove the current vermin purring maggots and make a new purring maggot small common milkable "non-vermin" cavern 1-3 creatures. Any "vermin related" bugs could be swept away with a couple of RAW changes, and perhaps purring maggot herding will become commonplace throughout the depths!.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 22, 2020, 02:09:18 pm
Any "vermin related" bugs could be swept away with a couple of RAW changes, and perhaps purring maggot herding will become commonplace throughout the depths!.
Keeping in mind any vermin to hand can be selected for this role and even made to be embarkable wholesale with common domestic or [ANIMAL] (it wont be contained), but the bug manifests itself in ways in that even if the vermin you had direct domesticated access to were nearby, you still couldnt import any cheese from it, even if the reaction was laid upon it to milk dwarven cheese in its place im quite certain.
So thats' a whole bunch of fields excluded from vermin products which have been potentially fixed, which is usually pretty... over the top given how much the embark screen loves to collect other things of impossible size for man-handling like animal-tears & bee poison. Even as to be as silly to think that dwarves would spend time trying to extract the carmine (conchineal) out of tiny vermin insects like acorn fly eyes. (the red mush whenever one gets crushed, fly blood is actually transparent)
But historically its something people did for profit, and is more believable at least than having them eat a acorn fly's brain-offal (which is a real over-scrupulous thing in the embark screen), then say that it was a suitable meal to sustain a dwarf for its weekly meal.
______________________________
Seperate to this, this means that bird feathers could be a real commodity now providing all the code is thorough with how dwarves collect things. All that's required is the tail-end of personal player modding to interpret it with pseudo feather gems and the like.
Post by: Immortal-D on December 26, 2020, 09:11:00 am
Post by: Pillbo on December 26, 2020, 02:21:08 pm
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on December 31, 2020, 12:08:47 am
I remember you saying that adding the ability to give custom names to Adventurer Camps was doable, so could this also apply to entire regions as well?This is presently possible through DFHack or save-editing; regions use the same naming system as just about everything else. A name in DF is either indexical, such that it uses words defined in the raws, or a normal string, such that it can be anything. By default, regions' names are indexical, but the game supports them being strings.
I imagine Toady will add this ability as part of the world-editor; it doesn't seem like something an adventurer would be able to do.
Post by: Beag on December 31, 2020, 07:21:42 pm
2. Will procedurally generated humanoids like escaped necromancer experiments have their equipment show up on their sprites?
3. Will there be any attempt made before the big wait to make necromancers less world ending? Maybe either less powerful or friendly enough to have joinable civs of experiments.
4. In the myth and magic update will generated experiments such as what the necromancers currently do be playable in game as a magic user adventerer, to clarify will we be able to experiment on people?
5. Also in the myth and magic update will it be possible for our adventurers to be captured and experimented on potentially changing their race?
Post by: voliol on December 31, 2020, 07:51:30 pm
1. After the steam release, what if anything is left before the big wait for the myth and magic update?
2. Will procedurally generated humanoids like escaped necromancer experiments have their equipment show up on their sprites?
3. Will there be any attempt made before the big wait to make necromancers less world ending? Maybe either less powerful or friendly enough to have joinable civs of experiments.
4. In the myth and magic update will generated experiments such as what the necromancers currently do be playable in game as a magic user adventerer, to clarify will we be able to experiment on people?
5. Also in the myth and magic update will it be possible for our adventurers to be captured and experimented on potentially changing their race?
1. There are things left, from the unfinished villains release. Then there's room for some other candidates, like army changes and adventurer mode medical stuff, before the Big Wait. (see "Pre-Magic Improvement Candidates" (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html))
5. Myths & magic will aim to integrate worldgen and mythgen magic into actual play. It'd be highly surprising if the current experimenting was somehow botched. Being "sacrificed as vessel for demons" is listed as a specific goal on the devpage, and it seems to me like it'd be somewhat similar, also being a non-consentual transformation caused by wizards.
Post by: clinodev on December 31, 2020, 10:39:41 pm
Will undead sieges, which can come even before the first migration wave, (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Necromancer#Fortress_mode) get user-definable triggers to avoid early attacks?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 31, 2020, 10:54:59 pm
In the spirit of early werebeast attacks being a surprise to the dev team after many years:Towers are indicated on the embark map. No need to change anything there. Embark with undead risk, embark without undead risk.
Will undead sieges, which can come even before the first migration wave, (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Necromancer#Fortress_mode) get user-definable triggers to avoid early attacks?
Post by: Beag on December 31, 2020, 11:52:11 pm
2. Pre the the myth and magic update would holding this position actually do anything besides giving the player adventurer a prestigious title? Could they command the city's local soldiers or hold some other form of power?
3. How would the player adventurer go about go about acquiring this title through reputation? And like wise how could they go about acquiring it through intrigue?
Post by: clinodev on January 01, 2021, 12:21:39 am
In the spirit of early werebeast attacks being a surprise to the dev team after many years:Towers are indicated on the embark map. No need to change anything there. Embark with undead risk, embark without undead risk.
Will undead sieges, which can come even before the first migration wave, (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Necromancer#Fortress_mode) get user-definable triggers to avoid early attacks?
Yes, and sophisticated players could turn off werebeast curses in advanced worldgen for years before the recent changes.
Likewise, you can certainly go through and comment "You're doing it wrong!" on all of negative reviews from people who will inevitably embark their first time between 4 towers, or Tarn could rationalize it a little bit as was done with werebeasts.
It seems likely to me that the latter option would be more effective.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 01, 2021, 02:45:05 am
I'm not talking about advanced worldgen. I'm talking about the opening screen. The one which every single player is presented with where they choose where to embark. You choose an evil region for evil things, you choose goblins for sieges. Make this screen better for new people, yes. More obvious what the info means, yes, give an explanation yes. Add a tutorial yes. But this is not a hidden feature. It's right there in front of you. Do you want undead sieges yes/no?In the spirit of early werebeast attacks being a surprise to the dev team after many years:Towers are indicated on the embark map. No need to change anything there. Embark with undead risk, embark without undead risk.
Will undead sieges, which can come even before the first migration wave, (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Necromancer#Fortress_mode) get user-definable triggers to avoid early attacks?
Yes, and sophisticated players could turn off werebeast curses in advanced worldgen for years before the recent changes.
Likewise, you can certainly go through and comment "You're doing it wrong!" on all of negative reviews from people who will inevitably embark their first time between 4 towers, or Tarn could rationalize it a little bit as was done with werebeasts.
It seems likely to me that the latter option would be more effective.
How many people do you seriously think would rage quit, screaming "impossible obtuse game" when they receive an undead siege after choosing to have undead sieges?
But, sure, options are good. Mainly for more advanced players who want to mix up their games though, as it's not something which makes the game more accessible for new people.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 01, 2021, 06:01:14 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 01, 2021, 08:20:07 am
In the spirit of early werebeast attacks being a surprise to the dev team after many years:Towers are indicated on the embark map. No need to change anything there. Embark with undead risk, embark without undead risk.
Will undead sieges, which can come even before the first migration wave, (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Necromancer#Fortress_mode) get user-definable triggers to avoid early attacks?
Yes, and sophisticated players could turn off werebeast curses in advanced worldgen for years before the recent changes.
Likewise, you can certainly go through and comment "You're doing it wrong!" on all of negative reviews from people who will inevitably embark their first time between 4 towers, or Tarn could rationalize it a little bit as was done with werebeasts.
It seems likely to me that the latter option would be more effective.
Reading about it, i personally still like the idea of the 2d fort's version of the nightmare warning precluding a necromancer tower taking a interest in you, even if the forcing over a dwarf as a apprentice or pay the consequences part isn't really too suitable anymore narratively when we have things like prophets that are meant to build up crackpot fake prophesies alongside true ones that haven't landed in fortress mode yet.
The coding part of the steam release is what im looking forward to, and wondering what retrospective balancing (more than core hard features) might be put in. A use finally for die & altars in fort mode is on my new-years wishlist.
Post by: Urist McSadist on January 01, 2021, 10:25:28 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 01, 2021, 12:48:44 pm
To what extent are powers going to get used in world gen after the magic update?I don't understand exactly what you mean by "powers", so you may want to clarify that if you can before Toady has recovered from the yearly lutefisk overdose and is ready to answer this FotF...
Do you mean the spheres generated during the myth part of world gen, the gods (or whatever powerful at least somewhat sentient forces at play), or something else? A fully mundane world would presumably be shaped by fully mundane forces (or spheres) in a process not involving any supernatural entities.
Post by: Bumber on January 01, 2021, 06:14:15 pm
In the spirit of early werebeast attacks being a surprise to the dev team after many years:Towers are indicated on the embark map. No need to change anything there. Embark with undead risk, embark without undead risk.
Will undead sieges, which can come even before the first migration wave, (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Necromancer#Fortress_mode) get user-definable triggers to avoid early attacks?
Do they still come only from towers? Necromancers conquer other sites now.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 01, 2021, 06:39:31 pm
Is this a sneaky hint that elephants or humans will recieve a RAW change in the next version respective to each other, or is this a subtle bit of editing to appeal more interesting for the devlog?
Do they still come only from towers? Necromancers conquer other sites now.
To borrow a word from another game (total warhammer) "Order-Tide" is pretty strong in terms that many threats, goblins included don't often actually get off the ground once the necromancer starts to mobilize and attack targets to draw attention to itself, and my personal favorite subject, sympathetic antagonists occasionally whimsying with goblins as well as dubious humans time to time balances it out with some good modification input, but vanilla coalitions tend to stomp hard.
Most alliances will also fall apart due to disagreement, elves are particularly fickle alliance members because they and humans oft take offense at each other and the dwarves ultimately end up cleaning up the mess however which way their alliegance falls without much of a personal vested interest.
In short, i doubt it has very much to do with it because such necromancer pillagings are rare and often quite explosively noticable events, and all of my early necro-sieges have occured purely through adjacency to towers and their armies clumsily scouting my site.
Post by: Toady One on January 02, 2021, 12:38:36 am
Quote from: Showbiz
1. Any chance we get a GOG release?
2. Will it be visually perceptible if a creature is hurt or will it be shown what body parts are injured/missing?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219380#msg8219380
LordL: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219397#msg8219397
Showbiz (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221387#msg8221387
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221397#msg8221397
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221400#msg8221400
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221443#msg8221443
Rose: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221450#msg8221450
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221837#msg8221837
1. Yeah, as the commenters say, we're going with itch for our DRM-free option, so that should be covered anyway. No idea how/if we'll expand to other places aside from Steam/itch after the launch. I'm not sure how Steam links up their launcher with the DF files I upload - those also just sit in a folder the way it currently works (though you only see that if you open it up yourself.) I'm not sure how they modify stuff.
2. We don't have all the animals chopped up into little pieces, so we won't be removing their limbs etc. Dwarves and the other main civ creatures built from layers are a different story - I haven't done it yet, but it would be pretty straightforward. In the future we might do more creatures, but not for the first Steam release.
Quote from: LordL
1)What are the bounds between creation myth and actual world history? Will there be a strict bound where the world "has been created" and the year 1 begins? Will we be able to affect it for example by playing adventure mode while gods do their active job?
2)I've heard that creation myth will do explanations for the afterlife. How will afterlife be incorporated into the game? Is it gonna track what happens to historical figures in their afterlife? Maybe they even do some celestial carrier and then will be able to interact with gods? Or maybe going to hell and be able to become demons somehow?
3)If things from previous really happen in some form, how will it affect the adventure mode? Does this mean that death of your adventurer is no longer a gameover?
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219396#msg8219396
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219400#msg8219400
LordL (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219883#msg8219883
1) The boundary is about the fineness and consistency of events in time and space. When there are enough little agents running around, and scheduling starts to become an issue, we need to switch to something like the current history generation. But it's possible that could end up sort of smeared out - we haven't had to negotiate this at all yet, and what it really means for the civilized creatures to be created and act in the early myths, and how that transitions to settlements. It could somehow end up having a significant in-between period where different mechanics kick in, maybe even in different orders depending on how mythgen goes. But those ages won't be playable until everything has kicked in. You'll be able to play in very active times, but being able to play when the world hasn't precisely formed wouldn't be a first release thing - as our ability to change the map etc. comes in, we can start playing around with games that feel like earlier and earlier starts (whether that's how it is actually realized or not.)
2+3) It's all on the table. We had been planning earlier to do a playable afterlife even before the myth/magic release was a thing, where you suddenly appear when you die and could interact with others that have died - we thought it'd be funny to make it kind of disorienting, like puff, here we are in the fields again, though that has to be balanced with being able to see and understand how you died. Now the whole afterlife idea will end up being even more integrated, though we can't make too much happen there, in most settings, since the living are more important generally for the CPU cycles and memory.
Quote from: FrankVill
In fortress mode, I can see a meticulous and detailed description of the physical appearance and psychological state of each of my dwarves. They are all unique in terms of their way of being, preferences, memories, etc ... The same can also be observed in residents of different races, such as an elf who lives in my fortress.
At the level of physical appearance, dwarves and elves clearly differ from each other, but at a psychological level there are no elements that allow me to differentiate them (perhaps I have overlooked some detail that may currently be present).
Looking to the future:
- How do you consider differentiating the personalities between two or several races / species to the point that they may have some incompatibilities between them? For example, that a race thinks in a certain way due to its genetics.
- Or, on the contrary, do you think it is better to have a common psychological framework for each intelligent creature and let external elements (culture, religion, professions, civilizations...) shape and define the psychology of each one?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219578#msg8219578
There are some biases in the raw files, and for the goblins, the lack of altruism I think does count as reasonably stark species difference, since they can't break 50%, though for two individuals you couldn't pick the goblin out every time. For the elves, despite how it works now, we never really decided whether the cannibalism bit was entirely cultural. With dwarves though, we've intentionally made them a bit closer to humans than they might normally be on the theory that it helps story formation somewhat. I'm not sure if we'll ever change that part in the default setup, though the myth release is likely to make more variability possible or even commonplace.
There's some tension here, as I think came up in DND and various other places, involving racism and roleplaying and etc. It's safest to completely homogenize the minds, not to vary them at all in a way linked to creature type, but our current thinking is that we can allow some variability, including stuff that's more stark than what we're doing now.
Quote from: MalroktheIII
1: With the magic arc, how disgustingly powerful do you expect super soldier programs to get? Are there going to be any restrictions or drawbacks that prevent or dissuade players from giving their dwarves most/every power/curse that is generated in their world? If so, have you thought of any yet?
2:Secondarily, in the magic arc, how much could dead dwarves effect fort mode? Right now we have ghosts, but how much bigger is it going to get on that front?
3:Thirdly in them magic arc, (Someone's probably asked this, but I'll ask anyway): what level of magic would you be able to pull off in fort mode without "special preparation" (eg: use of dump piles or pitting or something, as opposed to just setting a dwarf to a task)
4:I know that we'll probably eventually be able to play as other races, once you flesh them out enough, so, once you can, if you get conquered by an enemy force, would you have the option to play them controlling the fortress? (or alternatively, just as your conquered dwarves, but oppressed)
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219714#msg8219714
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219722#msg8219722
1: Mostly it just involves costs and side effects now. We haven't set up more global punishments for overuse of powers/favors/etc., but there's certainly a lot of literature there to draw from. As Shonai_Dweller and voliol replied, how powerful the dwarves can get will depend on the parameters and procgen as much as anything, and this'll often create counterbalances out in the world.
2: As usual, it's hard to say what comes in on the first pass, but there's certainly room to move there. Entire forms of magic based on ghosts/ancestors/etc. are possible. We were going to use ghosts w/ the undead lieutenants, and the aborted attempt proved that there are various issues to work through there, but it's a direction we wanted to go.
3: This'll be totally dependent on the universe it cooks up, and what things we get to on the first pass. It'll certainly be varied. Having all the stuff that's already in fort mode will allow us to try a bunch of systems out.
4: We'd entertained being able to play the occupied dwarves, yeah, and perhaps organizing a resistance - once you can play more than dwarves, then there's more potential for sure, although we haven't considered that particular flip I think.
Quote from: eerr
What do the evil villains do in their off-time?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8220099#msg8220099
I mean, most people don't do anything right now. They just sit in their spots. But the stuff that other people can do, the villains can do too, like visiting taverns, or (in world gen) running trade companies and being mercenaries and doing religious stuff etc.
Quote from: Murr2
Probably been asked before but will magic be able to use components? so the 50 barrels of dragonfly blood that the traders keep trying to pawn off on me will have some real (non Armok-related, of course) use?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8220210#msg8220210
Murr2 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8220218#msg8220218
To respond to the comments, we're certainly hoping to incorporate non-procedural objects. The main question we had here was how to do symbolism/etc., linking them to the myths and stuff, and not knowing yet how weird that'll play when it bumps up against real-world ideas about what materials/animals/plants/etc. represent. We can strengthen our own procedural symbolism using the myths, etc., but we'll have to mindful of the feel.
Quote from: mgsicko
how much are we, as players, going to be able to influence myth gen? will it have its own section in advanced world generation to determine things? E.g if i really want a world which is bound to fall during an apocalypse, is that something i will be able to generate on purpose?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221066#msg8221066
Yeah, Shonai_Dweller covered it - it's meant to be highly customizable, and that's how the current prototype works.
Quote from: LordL
Will myth generator make "Adam and Eve" for each civ (or maybe even each species)? That would be very logical. It's strange to see some historical figures born on like year -80 in current version
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221544#msg8221544
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221572#msg8221572
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221634#msg8221634
LordL (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221674#msg8221674
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221676#msg8221676
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221701#msg8221701
LordL (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221709#msg8221709
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221885#msg8221885
The current setup just comes from the initial collection of people made. There are about 200 of each (if I remember) and they can be various ages (and most are abstract at first anyway.) I don't have any problems with this (it could create 2 people, or a whole civ - once gods are involved, it doesn't matter), but it's likely to become more varied as we go. Any place it shows a negative year is an eyesore and I did adjust for that in places (time before time, 'has the appearance of' that kind of thing.)
Quote from: VineFynn
This has probably been asked before, but will the existence of the Steam build and the accompanying graphics indefinitely add overhead to development, since it needs to be updated?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8221996#msg8221996
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8222002#msg8222002
VineFynn (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8222184#msg8222184
I think the comments are more or less correct in how it'll play out. The graphics stuff seems like it can mostly be done concurrently, especially in longer releases. The overall question of what having a Steam community and all of that is going to be like is less clear! This is certainly a large change, and there'll be adjustments of various kinds that last various amounts of time. We'll also get better at dealing with it.
Quote from: NordicNooob
No way this hasn't come up some time before given the abundance of other formulas, but what exactly determines a successful dodge/block/parry? Is it skill vs skill alongside whatever debuffs a creature might have plus their attributes, and then that's it? Does size play a factor?
No, size isn't included for those, which is a little odd of course. It has gotten complicated in terms of wound status and additional situational awareness rolls and that sort of thing, but it's still essentially in the old Dragslay system of using opposed modified skill rolls. I'm not opposed to trying out some changes that incorporate size, but it'll make e.g. shields far far less useful in those situations. Which might be a good thing, but it'll certainly be a surprised to be suddenly squashed where you were getting a % invincibility before.
Quote from: LilyInTheWater
Will there be a slider for us to determine if magic items exist or not and if so can we determine how powerful they are and how common they are?
For example can I make the following scenario happen?:
Urist Weavercave is weaver and a former wizard. He keeps an enchanted ring on him that he found in a random stockpile. Many rings with the same spell litter the fortress as it is a cheap (Only costs a little bit of stamina on the caster's part), but still price-raising enchantment. Goes out into the caves to collect webs. Runs into a giant cave spider, he snaps his fingers and knocks the thing back. The giant cave spider smacks a wall and Urist goes about the rest of his day.
Generally I'm wondering if it's possible to build a fortress economy based off of selling magic items if the created magic system allows it? I like the idea of running a magic fortress and creating the most obnoxiously powerful magic items I can create for fun
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8222475#msg8222475
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8222481#msg8222481
Yeah, I think PatrikLundell's estimation here is correct - that's the sort of thing that'll happen, even on the first release, and you'd be able to set parameters that determine whether stuff like the fingersnap spell (related to the ring or not) or common enchantables exist.
Quote from: Gtyx1
I remember you saying that adding the ability to give custom names to Adventurer Camps was doable, so could this also apply to entire regions as well?
This question isn't as consequential, but can you eat vermin if your adventurer is hungry enough?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8223879#msg8223879
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8229338#msg8229338
Urlance addressed the first question - the naming system is consistent with the rest, but it would have to be added of course, and there'd need to be some context for it.
I don't recall how eating works - my vague recollection is that the "no, that's disgusting"-type message is mostly removed as a barrier if you are a starving, but that might not be the case.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
In the latest Kitfox video (made available to this forum thanks to clinodev), you said (and Fiona repeated in writing) that the interface was different compared to Classic. I hope you really meant different compared to the current version, rather than the Premium version of the Premium release would have a new UI logic while the Classic version of the Premium release would retain the current UI (not only would it be a pain to maintain two gradually diverging UIs, but it would also result in a disincentive to shift from the Premium release Classic version to the Premium release Premium version if it comes a the cost of learning a new UI [if anything, forcing the current Classic version users to relearn the UI would lower the threshold for also moving to the Premium version for current players]).
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8224627#msg8224627
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8224649#msg8224649
Ah, yeah, I sloppily say Classic sometimes when talking about what will be the old version that doesn't have a name at all, when comparing new features I'm adding. The Classic version (which is the new version with ASCII graphics) will have the new features as I've described in previous posts in here. Still, we'd like to stick with the terminology rather than trying something else.
Quote from: clinodev
In the 21 December 2020 DevLog, you write in part: " Dwarven cheese/milk are properly available at embark (came up in art testing, as all of the cheeses have different pictures and dwarven cheese was being elusive.)"
Did you fix the various bugs with dwarven cheese/milk, or just force them on the embark list?
According to the wiki, purring maggots don't appear on cavern level one anymore (with multiple other bugs listed in the report), which is the basic reason caravans and the embark menu don't show dwarven cheese/milk since 40d. Additionally, "Tamed purring maggots can't be milked.", and "After being milked, purring maggots are left inside the workshop as an item."
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8225897#msg8225897
I changed how materials are selected by sites in world gen that can access the deeper levels, so the purring maggots and others are used properly in world gen and embark, and in trade. I haven't addressed fort issues.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Has your recent work on the Stockpile interface caused you examine the myriad bugs involving Bins? Can you say if it would be easier to effectively write a new Bin on top of existing code instead of trying to retro-fix the existing Bin?
I haven't changed anything yet. Fixes are almost always easier than rewriting things from scratch.
Quote from: Pillbo
I've heard you say in a couple interviews that the difference between a cow and an alligator in DF is pretty negligible. So I was wondering, in your opinion, what needs to be done to fix this? You are clearly thinking about it, so when do you think you'll make those changes?
I have no idea when I'll take a look at it. They are different in terms of the predator flag, and the gait data, which is something, but the bite strength and the overall behavior/temperament need to be addressed. Stuff like proportion of body parts isn't crucial, but it would also be nice since it would impact wounds and also butchery results. But mostly it's the combat damage and, say, the difference between how alligators and cheetahs should act, despite both being tagged as predators.
Quote from: Beag
1. After the steam release, what if anything is left before the big wait for the myth and magic update?
2. Will procedurally generated humanoids like escaped necromancer experiments have their equipment show up on their sprites?
3. Will there be any attempt made before the big wait to make necromancers less world ending? Maybe either less powerful or friendly enough to have joinable civs of experiments.
4. In the myth and magic update will generated experiments such as what the necromancers currently do be playable in game as a magic user adventerer, to clarify will we be able to experiment on people?
5. Also in the myth and magic update will it be possible for our adventurers to be captured and experimented on potentially changing their race?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8229866#msg8229866
1. voliol covered this.
2. I don't think we've entirely settled this yet - they have one or two sets of bodies, so it's within the realm of possibility, the same way it is for animal people.
3. It's possible. It's pretty annoying the way it almost always ends up now.
4. I couldn't tell if this was two different questions. The escaped experiments are currently playable, and I'm not sure why there would be any restrictions on them (other than any that make sense based on their experiment status.) As for whether you'll be able to perform experiments (that is, being able to do what necromancers already do in worldgen), I'm not sure generally how we are going to approach player-led research (or bad behavior.) The options will expand, and that stuff is there, but the logistics for it are potentially more involved than what we already have for dwarf jobs, so it might not be in first.
5. We haven't brought the new necromancer stuff up into play, and we haven't done it with the night trolls either. I'm not sure how that'll play out - capturing adventurers in general brings up a lot of pacing issues that need to be sorted out, before we even get to the darker stuff.
Quote from: clinodev
In the spirit of early werebeast attacks being a surprise to the dev team after many years:
Will undead sieges, which can come even before the first migration wave, get user-definable triggers to avoid early attacks?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8229927#msg8229927
clinodev (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8229960#msg8229960
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8229988#msg8229988
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8230040#msg8230040
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8230072#msg8230072
Customization is nice, and certainly a warning window would be friendly. And super-early attacks are a little silly unless the area is really infested - the triggers are supposed to approximate the likelihood of being found based on the activity in the fort, and that should still apply to necros to some extent, especially if they're just hanging out with seven zombies and don't have any roving hordes or lieutenants scouting. Ultimately we'd like to improve how discovery works, etc.
Quote from: Beag
1.One of the pre myth and magic adventure mode candidates: gaining a civ level position through reputation or intrigue- is marked as partially done. Has it been added to the game to some extent? I know there is a bug/exploit to have rulers inexplicably give you their title if you hang on the make make demands menu.
2. Pre the the myth and magic update would holding this position actually do anything besides giving the player adventurer a prestigious title? Could they command the city's local soldiers or hold some other form of power?
3. How would the player adventurer go about go about acquiring this title through reputation? And like wise how could they go about acquiring it through intrigue?
1. There's nothing like that intentionally in adventure mode that I recall. Villains do the plot in world gen, including co-conspirators and some other bells and whistles, and it might be that framework that made it a partial. There's nothing at all for rep I think.
2. The use of these positions is on the table for the post-Steam/pre-magic army stuff.
3. Bragging and asking would be the most straightforward way. The intrigue methods involve blackmail or using planted subordinates to replace position holders (this is abstracted in world gen) - since the adventurer-as-villains stuff is up for being done before or along with the army stuff, you'll have these tools at your disposal.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
To what extent are powers going to get used in world gen after the magic update?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8230146#msg8230146
e.g. Necromancers use powers in world gen now, and I'd expect that trend to continue, though it requires various special cases and some don't get used. Since situations are abstracted to various degrees, it'll be easier with some powers than others.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
I was searching over the raws when i made a abrupt realization that there's a elephant in the room, regarding that humans have [USE_NON_EXOTIC_PET_RACE] that freezes them out from using them. But appear in the steamrelease-teaser-screenshots gallery of a apparently natural human siege.
Is this a sneaky hint that elephants or humans will recieve a RAW change in the next version respective to each other, or is this a subtle bit of editing to appeal more interesting for the devlog?
I didn't change anything directly here, and I didn't edit anything for the dev log. When I was testing, I ran the attack code so I could get some humans, and there were elephants, which was a bonus since we wanted to show their tile at some point. Does PET or TRAINABLE put them in the regular non-exotic pool for 'monster' races? Elephants have MOUNT_EXOTIC, but these weren't mounted - they came in the troll way, a whole bunch of them. The lone elephant there was the result of a bug (making it the leader of the whole army), but it was followed by about 20 more that I figured were legitimate 'monster' units. Or could a general have tamed them in world gen? I'm not sure, ha ha.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 02, 2021, 04:11:56 am
Quote from: ToadyOne
I didn't change anything directly here, and I didn't edit anything for the dev log. When I was testing, I ran the attack code so I could get some humans, and there were elephants, which was a bonus since we wanted to show their tile at some point. Does PET or TRAINABLE put them in the regular non-exotic pool for 'monster' races? Elephants have MOUNT_EXOTIC, but these weren't mounted - they came in the troll way, a whole bunch of them. The lone elephant there was the result of a bug (making it the leader of the whole army), but it was followed by about 20 more that I figured were legitimate 'monster' units. Or could a general have tamed them in world gen? I'm not sure, ha ha.
Filtering, the [POSITION:CAPTAIN] noble or overlapping any variable position of creatures outside the defined scope fixes this kind of thing, as that's mainly the w.g nonhistorical and no-equipment fodder the AI throws virtually unlimited amounts at you for. If it was a inaccessible class of creature and that the civ couldn't fufill to find that creature (sentient or otherwise) inside itself it'd omit them entirely and as i remember it working the once after i made a faulty RAW definition, sending out site militia's making historical site population trickle down after being unable to reach its reliable captains.
Example made for humans being similar to the dwarven template under the mountain civ, with the creature clause.
Spoiler: "Captain code enclosed" (click to show/hide)
From what you say, that elephant is just controlling the smallest branch of the army onto your site technically underneath the lieutenant/general hierarchy, and animals have been noted, as per bug report ( #6708: Human civilization's soldier is an Alligator Recruit. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6708) ) as recruits themselves so maybe the elephant brought its own squad by chance?
A additional note, that creature-feature monster squads vanish from goblins (trolls in armor etc) if this is also filled out with trolls appearing in the correct capacity.
The elephants being tamed for their [MOUNT_EXOTIC] is quite likely the result of a general going out of their way to travel the wilds for animals now that i think about it since [USE_NON_EXOTIC_PET_RACE] and elephant [PET] is compatible on the surface while [MOUNT_EXOTIC] is not, i was just wondering if there was more to it personally but this is a satisfiable result.
Post by: Ziusudra on January 02, 2021, 01:55:34 pm
I don't recall how eating works - my vague recollection is that the "no, that's disgusting"-type message is mostly removed as a barrier if you are a starving, but that might not be the case.Your recollection is correct. Of course, once you do eat the vermin, you'll no longer be starving. So it's not like you can fill up on them.
Post by: Libertine Angel on January 02, 2021, 02:31:03 pm
Yeah I think intrinsic species traits would be sketchy, I don't see any reason why background alone wouldn't be enough (for one thing it gives us the chance to have our own Carrot Ironfoundersson types) and giving any group an "inherent nature" is a rather bioessentialist view.Quote from: FrankVillIn fortress mode, I can see a meticulous and detailed description of the physical appearance and psychological state of each of my dwarves. They are all unique in terms of their way of being, preferences, memories, etc ... The same can also be observed in residents of different races, such as an elf who lives in my fortress.
At the level of physical appearance, dwarves and elves clearly differ from each other, but at a psychological level there are no elements that allow me to differentiate them (perhaps I have overlooked some detail that may currently be present).
Looking to the future:
- How do you consider differentiating the personalities between two or several races / species to the point that they may have some incompatibilities between them? For example, that a race thinks in a certain way due to its genetics.
- Or, on the contrary, do you think it is better to have a common psychological framework for each intelligent creature and let external elements (culture, religion, professions, civilizations...) shape and define the psychology of each one?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219578#msg8219578
There are some biases in the raw files, and for the goblins, the lack of altruism I think does count as reasonably stark species difference, since they can't break 50%, though for two individuals you couldn't pick the goblin out every time. For the elves, despite how it works now, we never really decided whether the cannibalism bit was entirely cultural. With dwarves though, we've intentionally made them a bit closer to humans than they might normally be on the theory that it helps story formation somewhat. I'm not sure if we'll ever change that part in the default setup, though the myth release is likely to make more variability possible or even commonplace.
There's some tension here, as I think came up in DND and various other places, involving racism and roleplaying and etc. It's safest to completely homogenize the minds, not to vary them at all in a way linked to creature type, but our current thinking is that we can allow some variability, including stuff that's more stark than what we're doing now.
Post by: ZM5 on January 04, 2021, 02:47:56 am
It's just a normal fantasy thing in regards to innate traits, I don't see why it's "sketchy" or why it should be removed or changed. Even dwarves have a similar thing going on where they're more greedy on average and slightly less prone to stress, amongst other traits - I don't think anyone really sees that as an issue.Yeah I think intrinsic species traits would be sketchy, I don't see any reason why background alone wouldn't be enough (for one thing it gives us the chance to have our own Carrot Ironfoundersson types) and giving any group an "inherent nature" is a rather bioessentialist view.Quote from: FrankVillIn fortress mode, I can see a meticulous and detailed description of the physical appearance and psychological state of each of my dwarves. They are all unique in terms of their way of being, preferences, memories, etc ... The same can also be observed in residents of different races, such as an elf who lives in my fortress.
At the level of physical appearance, dwarves and elves clearly differ from each other, but at a psychological level there are no elements that allow me to differentiate them (perhaps I have overlooked some detail that may currently be present).
Looking to the future:
- How do you consider differentiating the personalities between two or several races / species to the point that they may have some incompatibilities between them? For example, that a race thinks in a certain way due to its genetics.
- Or, on the contrary, do you think it is better to have a common psychological framework for each intelligent creature and let external elements (culture, religion, professions, civilizations...) shape and define the psychology of each one?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219578#msg8219578
There are some biases in the raw files, and for the goblins, the lack of altruism I think does count as reasonably stark species difference, since they can't break 50%, though for two individuals you couldn't pick the goblin out every time. For the elves, despite how it works now, we never really decided whether the cannibalism bit was entirely cultural. With dwarves though, we've intentionally made them a bit closer to humans than they might normally be on the theory that it helps story formation somewhat. I'm not sure if we'll ever change that part in the default setup, though the myth release is likely to make more variability possible or even commonplace.
There's some tension here, as I think came up in DND and various other places, involving racism and roleplaying and etc. It's safest to completely homogenize the minds, not to vary them at all in a way linked to creature type, but our current thinking is that we can allow some variability, including stuff that's more stark than what we're doing now.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 04, 2021, 05:53:38 am
Post by: recon1o6 on January 04, 2021, 06:11:49 am
Thanks for the replies Toady, but id be sure to answer your question for a change based on what i know of the subject topic with this new info.Quote from: ToadyOneI didn't change anything directly here, and I didn't edit anything for the dev log. When I was testing, I ran the attack code so I could get some humans, and there were elephants, which was a bonus since we wanted to show their tile at some point. Does PET or TRAINABLE put them in the regular non-exotic pool for 'monster' races? Elephants have MOUNT_EXOTIC, but these weren't mounted - they came in the troll way, a whole bunch of them. The lone elephant there was the result of a bug (making it the leader of the whole army), but it was followed by about 20 more that I figured were legitimate 'monster' units. Or could a general have tamed them in world gen? I'm not sure, ha ha.
Filtering, the [POSITION:CAPTAIN] noble or overlapping any variable position of creatures outside the defined scope fixes this kind of thing, as that's mainly the w.g nonhistorical and no-equipment fodder the AI throws virtually unlimited amounts at you for. If it was a inaccessible class of creature and that the civ couldn't fufill to find that creature (sentient or otherwise) inside itself it'd omit them entirely and as i remember it working the once after i made a faulty RAW definition, sending out site militia's making historical site population trickle down after being unable to reach its reliable captains.
Example made for humans being similar to the dwarven template under the mountain civ, with the creature clause.Spoiler: "Captain code enclosed" (click to show/hide)
From what you say, that elephant is just controlling the smallest branch of the army onto your site technically underneath the lieutenant/general hierarchy, and animals have been noted, as per bug report ( #6708: Human civilization's soldier is an Alligator Recruit. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6708) ) as recruits themselves so maybe the elephant brought its own squad by chance?
A additional note, that creature-feature monster squads vanish from goblins (trolls in armor etc) if this is also filled out with trolls appearing in the correct capacity.
The elephants being tamed for their [MOUNT_EXOTIC] is quite likely the result of a general going out of their way to travel the wilds for animals now that i think about it since [USE_NON_EXOTIC_PET_RACE] and elephant [PET] is compatible on the surface while [MOUNT_EXOTIC] is not, i was just wondering if there was more to it personally but this is a satisfiable result.
this is terrifying, elephants having squads behind them, now imagine if that got scaled up to say, tamed roc's if monster units can suddenly be generated on the map
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 04, 2021, 07:54:13 am
this is terrifying, elephants having squads behind them, now imagine if that got scaled up to say, tamed roc's if monster units can suddenly be generated on the map
Well its actually mostly the case when beak-dogs make a appearance in sieges on their own with their little historical named titles rather than mounts or warbeasts (they dont have the capability to do so in native raws without editing), so this has been trapsed around for a number of years now. So much goblinite wasted on improper goblin recruitment; tut, tut.
Post by: Libertine Angel on January 05, 2021, 01:54:59 pm
It's just a normal fantasy thing in regards to innate traits, I don't see why it's "sketchy" or why it should be removed or changed. Even dwarves have a similar thing going on where they're more greedy on average and slightly less prone to stress, amongst other traits - I don't think anyone really sees that as an issue.Yeah I think intrinsic species traits would be sketchy, I don't see any reason why background alone wouldn't be enough (for one thing it gives us the chance to have our own Carrot Ironfoundersson types) and giving any group an "inherent nature" is a rather bioessentialist view.Quote from: FrankVillIn fortress mode, I can see a meticulous and detailed description of the physical appearance and psychological state of each of my dwarves. They are all unique in terms of their way of being, preferences, memories, etc ... The same can also be observed in residents of different races, such as an elf who lives in my fortress.
At the level of physical appearance, dwarves and elves clearly differ from each other, but at a psychological level there are no elements that allow me to differentiate them (perhaps I have overlooked some detail that may currently be present).
Looking to the future:
- How do you consider differentiating the personalities between two or several races / species to the point that they may have some incompatibilities between them? For example, that a race thinks in a certain way due to its genetics.
- Or, on the contrary, do you think it is better to have a common psychological framework for each intelligent creature and let external elements (culture, religion, professions, civilizations...) shape and define the psychology of each one?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8219578#msg8219578
There are some biases in the raw files, and for the goblins, the lack of altruism I think does count as reasonably stark species difference, since they can't break 50%, though for two individuals you couldn't pick the goblin out every time. For the elves, despite how it works now, we never really decided whether the cannibalism bit was entirely cultural. With dwarves though, we've intentionally made them a bit closer to humans than they might normally be on the theory that it helps story formation somewhat. I'm not sure if we'll ever change that part in the default setup, though the myth release is likely to make more variability possible or even commonplace.
There's some tension here, as I think came up in DND and various other places, involving racism and roleplaying and etc. It's safest to completely homogenize the minds, not to vary them at all in a way linked to creature type, but our current thinking is that we can allow some variability, including stuff that's more stark than what we're doing now.
If we kept things just because they were normal nothing would ever improve, a while ago there was actually a big discussion about the latest D&D edition where plenty of people saw the issue, because "this race has inherently bad traits" is a concept that's led to a lot of awful things in the world, is a kind of lazy way to develop personalities and is arbitrarily limiting. Even Tolkien regretted making orcs predisposed to evil in his later writings.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 05, 2021, 04:10:58 pm
It does have to be approached mindfully, but "truly alien beings" are some of my favorite things in fiction.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 05, 2021, 04:57:50 pm
I feel like it would be appropriate to give radically different personalities to creatures which clearly aren't just reskinned humans. Dwarves, elves, and goblins could plausibly be seen as being different races of human, or closely related species. But animal people or demons or whatever kind of generated sapient we wind up getting could think drastically differently from humans. IMO it would be a wasted opportunity if solitary carnivore cat people had exactly the same outlook as humans, and demons aren't really even animals, so it would be expected for them to have different priorities from anything living.But would a solitaire carnivore cat creature who was born and raised in a human town really have a completely different personality and outlook on life than the humans around him?
It does have to be approached mindfully, but "truly alien beings" are some of my favorite things in fiction.
And would a human raised by a (nearly) solitaire carnivore cat creature have the same personality as those in the town?
The system needs to be flexible enough to deal with those cases. Assigning a "cat creature" personality in a world as complex as a typical Dwarf Fortress world seems way too simple.
Post by: Rose on January 05, 2021, 05:36:44 pm
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 05, 2021, 06:20:12 pm
If we kept things just because they were normal nothing would ever improve, a while ago there was actually a big discussion about the latest D&D edition where plenty of people saw the issue, because "this race has inherently bad traits" is a concept that's led to a lot of awful things in the world, is a kind of lazy way to develop personalities and is arbitrarily limiting.I think that the sort of person who looks at something like DF's goblins and analogizes them with a real ethnic group is probably quite prejudiced to begin with. Assuming that the existence of monstrous humanoids in a fantasy world is tantamount to racists caricaturing other people as monsters strikes me as ceding ground to bigots. Of course, optics are a legitimate concern, but I resent the notion that DF, as it exists, might be inculcating hatred in its players.
That said, the obvious out with goblins is to make their evil a result of their demon master's corrupting influence, such that those who spend prolonged amounts of time out its reach become more benign.
Even Tolkien regretted making orcs predisposed to evil in his later writings.Wasn't this because of the theological implications? An innately evil race would seem to lack the opportunity for salvation, for one. Dwarf Fortress, however, is not made with an eye towards conforming with Christian beliefs.
At any rate, it's unpleasingly simplistic from a literary perspective, though I'm not sure how much that concern applies to this game.
I would expect the human-raised cat-creature to be culturally human, but still to have feline inclinations, and vice-versa. This is consistent with how the game works at present, with civilization-raws defining cultural values and creature-raws defining personality parameters. Having a uniform felinid-personality would obviously be silly, but DF is at no risk of being that simplistic.I feel like it would be appropriate to give radically different personalities to creatures which clearly aren't just reskinned humans. Dwarves, elves, and goblins could plausibly be seen as being different races of human, or closely related species. But animal people or demons or whatever kind of generated sapient we wind up getting could think drastically differently from humans. IMO it would be a wasted opportunity if solitary carnivore cat people had exactly the same outlook as humans, and demons aren't really even animals, so it would be expected for them to have different priorities from anything living.But would a solitaire carnivore cat creature who was born and raised in a human town really have a completely different personality and outlook on life than the humans around him?
It does have to be approached mindfully, but "truly alien beings" are some of my favorite things in fiction.
And would a human raised by a (nearly) solitaire carnivore cat creature have the same personality as those in the town?
The system needs to be flexible enough to deal with those cases. Assigning a "cat creature" personality in a world as complex as a typical Dwarf Fortress world seems way too simple.
I feel like it would be appropriate to give radically different personalities to creatures which clearly aren't just reskinned humans. Dwarves, elves, and goblins could plausibly be seen as being different races of human, or closely related species.Right, and once interbreeding is introduced (as I believe is planned) they will be, in effect, members of the same species.
Post by: LordBaal on January 06, 2021, 06:23:42 am
Fantastic racism makes for some interesting plots and argumental lines. To draw paralels or connections to real life racism? No, please no. Racism in real life is stupid and one of the main reasons lots of people suffer.
Post by: Hartsteen on January 06, 2021, 08:13:46 am
Will unprepared food get bad after some time in stock?
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 06, 2021, 09:47:22 am
Ohh please... how anyone could see DF goblins and think that is a jab of any real life human ethnicity or group? Whoever does that must have a real problem. I would apreciate if you do not pollute this thread/forum/game with any of that crap.
Fantastic racism makes for some interesting plots and argumental lines. To draw paralels or connections to real life racism? No, please no. Racism in real life is stupid and one of the main reasons lots of people suffer.
Agreed.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 06, 2021, 12:22:18 pm
Besides, they have their uses in their own unique ways. Throwing back to the primary example of goblin cruelty, it appeals to so many base desires that its easy enough to stack with the correct kind of stimulus and doing activities that dwarves would usually never enjoy as a refreshing break from the predictable nature of dwarves you can build around. You never know when you need a torturer around (though not presently with the half complete state of espionage and how little jail content we have) who's not going to become haggard or sombre, but rather sings and dances at the prospect of coming into work being important to the fort's security & their own mental wellbeing.
Post by: LordBaal on January 06, 2021, 01:28:06 pm
What should be avoided by anyone is seeing a fantasy race, specially a generic one like goblins and think/say/write: "It's offensive to X group of real life people", without any kind of support beyond their own predisposition and prejudgment.
Now, evil necromancers do are a jab at most politicians hehehehee
Post by: LilyInTheWater on January 06, 2021, 02:37:47 pm
I feel like it would be appropriate to give radically different personalities to creatures which clearly aren't just reskinned humans. Dwarves, elves, and goblins could plausibly be seen as being different races of human, or closely related species. But animal people or demons or whatever kind of generated sapient we wind up getting could think drastically differently from humans. IMO it would be a wasted opportunity if solitary carnivore cat people had exactly the same outlook as humans, and demons aren't really even animals, so it would be expected for them to have different priorities from anything living.
It does have to be approached mindfully, but "truly alien beings" are some of my favorite things in fiction.
You could just mod in a civ that has weird morality if you want your fix and put in the carnivorous cat people as the race for that. Fairly easily too, there's a lot of flexibility in the raw entity files for morality and values. (I mean this is a game where the elves by default are down with eating killed sapients but will violently slaughter your fort if you chop down too many trees) But you probably already knew that. I made a civ of animal people that treated trespassing and vandalism like it was a personal matter because the concept of private property wasn't a huge deal to them.
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 07, 2021, 01:58:56 pm
There appear to be some issues with dice effects (and the bane for overuse) that I, at least, can't quite make out? Such as:
Quote
Grants the user a week of good luck/bad luck (unknown effect, assumed to be similar-but-opposite to the mummy's curse, or temporary in the case of bad luck)".... Using the same dice under the same deity's blessing more than twice in an uncertain period of time, known to be between 24 hours - 1 week...
Edit: Nearly forgot. Is 'time before time' references in legends any sort of placeholder for mythgen connections coming in, or do my eyes deceive me?
Here in particular, I speak for those who are also drawing a blank on whatever a 'fixed world' might be, some kind of post-worldgen thing?
Quote from: devlog
Editors for fixed worlds
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 07, 2021, 05:48:39 pm
While broken grammar is annoying, there are far more serious issues piled on the overly full table of things to do before the Premium release, so the only reason text generation would be reworked is if it somehow had to be reworked for technical reasons to work with enhanced UI functionality (hyperlinks have been mentioned as a candidate for Legends Mode), but I'm hard pressed to think of why grammatical incorrectness would be linked to something requiring rework on technical grounds.
Minor grammatical issues are more likely to be (low priority) candidates for periodic minor releases during the Big Wait.
Toady/Threetoe aren't maintaining the wiki: it's a community issue, so you're better of asking your question directly rather than beat around the bush (and once you've received the answer, you could update the wiki page yourself). Note that you can update your post rather than create a new one.
Post by: ArrowheadArcher on January 07, 2021, 06:25:53 pm
You can make any race as evil, good natured or mixmatch of it. Whole races universally evil or otherwise. You can also have fantastic racism between them as plot devices like the dwarves and elves and so on as (sadly) a parallelism of real world. Specially when some, most of all of that racism is found out to be baseless as the plot advances in the case of books and such.
What should be avoided by anyone is seeing a fantasy race, specially a generic one like goblins and think/say/write: "It's offensive to X group of real life people", without any kind of support beyond their own predisposition and prejudgment.
Now, evil necromancers do are a jab at most politicians hehehehee
I think there just needs to be more ethics tags related to nationality and other social issues such as women's ability to participate in a civ for instance. I know there's a workaround for this in modding, but modders are lazy so having thoses types tags would help. It also add to simlution that's going on as well. More soical simultion is all ways welcome.
Post by: LilyInTheWater on January 08, 2021, 01:02:24 am
I think there just needs to be more ethics tags related to nationality and other social issues such as women's ability to participate in a civ for instance. I know there's a workaround for this in modding, but modders are lazy so having thoses types tags would help. It also add to simlution that's going on as well. More soical simultion is all ways welcome.
I personally feel that would cause a lot of unnecessary fights in the community and I don't think it would be particularly useful addition to begin with. I like dwarf fortress a lot because it doesn't have stuff like misogyny be a thing in it. The closest the game gets to having gender roles is when the female dwarves have to carry their baby around for a year and I feel that's more of a convenience thing, and I personally would prefer it stay that way. I suppose it would be optional if it could be edited in the raws and thus easily taken out by most players, but see my first point. Simulation and realism are only useful for as long as they are fun--if they are hampering the fun, they shouldn't be that way. That's how I feel in my opinion.
Also this isn't the place for suggestions. Go to the suggestion forums for that.
Let's have a topic change before it blows up.
Does the "myth" part of the magic and myths update only include creation myths, or will there be other tales involving the gods as well in the initial worldgen process? Things like that one myth where Amaterasu hid a cave after Susanoo threw a flayed horse at her so the gods had to convene to try to get her out of the cave, for example.
also
Will there be a way to easily understand how a world's magic system works upon worldgen? Obviously there's room for discovery in gameplay, but it wouldn't hurt if there was at least a rough summary of how each world's magic system is set up on worldgen, unless the creation myth is supposed to explain the magic system as well.
I don't believe these are suggestions, just stuff I was wondering.
Edited the post to clarify my question!
Post by: Dr Disposable on January 08, 2021, 01:35:06 pm
And what are going to happen to cave dragons?
Post by: Bumber on January 08, 2021, 01:46:41 pm
Edit: Nearly forgot. Is 'time before time' references in legends any sort of placeholder for mythgen connections coming in, or do my eyes deceive me?
It's just anything from before year 0 in world gen.
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 10, 2021, 07:36:07 am
I was wondering about dragon generation, would dragons be different world to world which I presume is the case, or would there be several dragon types like how there are cave dragons and regular dragons.fixed your colouring, lime green is pretty much necessary for questions to Toady - some sort of eyesight issue, IIRC, not exactly colour blindness so much as... it's uncertain quite what.
And what are going to happen to cave dragons?
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 10, 2021, 08:11:38 am
Thus, it's a way to speed up the monthly answering process (and the sooner that's taken care of, the more time he can spend on "real" DF work).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 10, 2021, 09:34:40 am
The coloring is not an eye issue as such, but a practical one: coloring the questions allows Toady to quickly find them among the chaff of other posts (like this one). If you look at his answers, you find that he's got no problem reading and linking to those other posts when they contain relevant info.Also, the green, as opposed to lime green is really hard to read on some monitors, so lime green is preferred. That said, Toady's never complained about green posts and answers them whenever they crop up.
Thus, it's a way to speed up the monthly answering process (and the sooner that's taken care of, the more time he can spend on "real" DF work).
Post by: ror6ax on January 10, 2021, 01:57:36 pm
Post by: LilyInTheWater on January 10, 2021, 02:25:29 pm
Edit: Nearly forgot. Is 'time before time' references in legends any sort of placeholder for mythgen connections coming in, or do my eyes deceive me?
Here in particular, I speak for those who are also drawing a blank on whatever a 'fixed world' might be, some kind of post-worldgen thing?Quote from: devlogEditors for fixed worlds
"First of their kind" creatures who come into being with a specific age have their actual birthdate as like the year -35. I would assume there is an actual timeline that takes place in the "Time before time" during worldgen, it's just not displayed in the game because it would be weird to see stuff like "in the year -455 x god broke up with y god and in -318 y god lost a finger and z mystical force sprang from it."
Post by: Aid on January 10, 2021, 04:37:32 pm
Post by: DG on January 10, 2021, 07:25:00 pm
Has generative/adaptive music in DF been suggested before?
Yes. Here are just a couple that have procedural and music in the title.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159551.msg7102711#msg7102711
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149508.msg6111038#msg6111038
Although, I assume you mean "how hard do you think it would be to implement and if you do hypothetically intend to, what sort of priority is it compared to things already in the pipeline?" which you wont find an answer for in the suggestion threads.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 10, 2021, 08:05:51 pm
Have you changed the myth generator in any way from the moment you introduced it to GDC?Toady might well have tinkered with the prototype since the presentation, but bear in mind that he has not yet begun work on the Myth Arc, which is expected to last well over a year (easily over two, in my view). The final product will surely differ in various ways from what was shown at GDC, but I don't think you'll glean much of interest on the topic at present. Actually integrating it with the game is a bridge that Toady has yet to cross.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 11, 2021, 02:01:31 am
Has generative/adaptive music in DF been suggested before?
Yes. Here are just a couple that have procedural and music in the title.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159551.msg7102711#msg7102711
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149508.msg6111038#msg6111038
Although, I assume you mean "how hard do you think it would be to implement and if you do hypothetically intend to, what sort of priority is it compared to things already in the pipeline?" which you wont find an answer for in the suggestion threads.
If you have a musical major or least a very good RAW modding copy-sheet, you can also write your own for static instruments the game will simply improvise cultural music styles around instead even as a full replacement. So procedural instruments isn't always 100% a nessecity. Infact there's a 50 part huge value-monster constructable steel pipe organ down in the modding section right now, which is the most complete instrument i've seen thus far though it'd be nearly impossible to buy from a caravan, very heavy, and difficult to construct by a nessecity of steel.
A more moderate example of a flute can be simply whittled out of a inexpensive piece of wood for instance with a input reaction recipie but needs fields put in for its sounds for types of composure.
Post by: Murr2 on January 25, 2021, 04:19:19 pm
Post by: voliol on January 25, 2021, 04:38:44 pm
Will we have a multicore version for the steam release?No, DF will not be multithreaded beyond the graphics using a separate thread. It has been discussed many times, and making DF multithreaded is an immense effort for relatively negligible benefits.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 26, 2021, 12:27:34 am
Will we have a multicore version for the steam release?Voliol's right, but even if DF were to go multicore, it wouldn't be Steam-exclusive. Toady has expressed a desire not to keep essential features out of the classic version.
Post by: Ziusudra on January 26, 2021, 01:29:23 am
Voliol's right, but even if DF were to go multicore, it wouldn't be Steam-exclusive. Toady has expressed a desire not to keep essential features out of the classic version.I think it's as much a desire to not have to maintain two code bases.
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on January 26, 2021, 01:50:10 am
I think it's as much a desire to not have to maintain two code bases.Most certainly; that'd be a right pain. Regardless, I don't want anyone getting the impression that the Classic Edition is a less complete version of the game.
Post by: Urist McSadist on January 26, 2021, 04:24:45 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 26, 2021, 02:53:33 pm
In my years of playing the game I've never seen a successful kobold thief. Are there any plans to buff ambushers before the big wait?Unless you can somehow squeeze it into "better military", the answer is most likely no, and I think the odds for getting that into military to any significant extent is quite limited (they might benefit from something general, but that's probably about it).
I think I've see a kobold make off with something not yet cleaned off from the battlefield once, though, but I'm not sure (I've certainly have had animals do that).
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 27, 2021, 11:16:30 pm
In my years of playing the game I've never seen a successful kobold thief. Are there any plans to buff ambushers before the big wait?
Huh?! Did the Goblins run out of dwarven, elven, and human children, so they’re snatching kobolds now?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 27, 2021, 11:21:39 pm
Goblins have snatchers. Kobolds have thieves.In my years of playing the game I've never seen a successful kobold thief. Are there any plans to buff ambushers before the big wait?
Huh?! Did the Goblins run out of dwarven, elven, and human children, so they’re snatching kobolds now?
Not sure where the confusion is...
Post by: Prismatic on January 28, 2021, 04:20:14 am
2) What is the cut-off at which a gait is considered to be fast with regard to the [IE_HAVE_FAST_EFFORTLESS_GAIT_SPEED] and [IE_ALL_SLOW_EFFORTLESS_GAIT_SPEED] tokens?
Post by: Knight Otu on January 28, 2021, 07:51:28 am
1) What exactly does the [IS_SECRET:MUNDANE_RESEARCH_POSSIBLE] interaction token do? The wiki simply states that "the secret can be researched by mundane means", which isn't particularly enlightening.I can't find any quotes at the moment, but my understanding is that the token doesn't actually do anything quite yet, perhaps luckily for the worlds that already have some necromancer problems. I recall it being called a "for the future" addition, essentially.
Post by: Putnam on January 28, 2021, 04:48:06 pm
In my years of playing the game I've never seen a successful kobold thief. Are there any plans to buff ambushers before the big wait?
Well, yeah, if they were successful you didn't see them!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 28, 2021, 05:22:48 pm
Don't they generate a "kobold has stolen some stuff" message when they reach the map edge?In my years of playing the game I've never seen a successful kobold thief. Are there any plans to buff ambushers before the big wait?
Well, yeah, if they were successful you didn't see them!
Post by: Beag on January 28, 2021, 07:03:11 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 28, 2021, 10:33:35 pm
Will there be an updated look screen for when our adventurers look at a creature in the steam release similar to what was shown to be upcoming for fortress mode?
Huh? If your talking about the one in the update on the devlog, that’s for the Steam release.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 29, 2021, 04:19:57 am
You misunderstood the question: Available in Adventure Mode as well as Fortress Mode in the Premium release.Will there be an updated look screen for when our adventurers look at a creature in the steam release similar to what was shown to be upcoming for fortress mode?
Huh? If your talking about the one in the update on the devlog, that’s for the Steam release.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 29, 2021, 08:16:04 am
You misunderstood the question: Available in Adventure Mode as well as Fortress Mode in the Premium release.Will there be an updated look screen for when our adventurers look at a creature in the steam release similar to what was shown to be upcoming for fortress mode?
Huh? If your talking about the one in the update on the devlog, that’s for the Steam release.
Oh. I guess that’s what happens when you post while half asleep then. Looks like I’ll be looking forward to the answer too.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 30, 2021, 08:08:08 am
A couple of questions regarding the latest release:
- The release note said meal value affects meal satisfaction. Does meal quality factor in beyond its value enhancement factor?
- Does the new meal satisfaction logic affect meal selection so dorfs now first look for favored ingredients and then value, or does the previous logic remain, i.e. favored ingredients and then closest (with satisfaction due to value being down to luck/stockpile design)?
Post by: ZM5 on February 01, 2021, 01:17:14 pm
Post by: Toady One on February 01, 2021, 06:34:40 pm
Quote from: Harsteen
Will recipes be procedural generated to produce recognisable dishes with interesting ingrediences (outside "normal " dishes like "roasted xxx")?
Will unprepared food get bad after some time in stock?
Procedural recipes were the plan back when we first added taverns. That and the procedural games for people to play. But we didn't get there at the time, so now it's back in the general list of things to be done.
Food preservation is also one of those general list things. So, no idea when we'll get to that sort of thing. But it would be neat if the various processes were there to be done.
Quote from: Silverwing235
There appear to be some issues with dice effects (and the bane for overuse) that I, at least, can't quite make out? Such as:QuoteGrants the user a week of good luck/bad luck (unknown effect, assumed to be similar-but-opposite to the mummy's curse, or temporary in the case of bad luck)".... Using the same dice under the same deity's blessing more than twice in an uncertain period of time, known to be between 24 hours - 1 week...
Edit: Nearly forgot. Is 'time before time' references in legends any sort of placeholder for mythgen connections coming in, or do my eyes deceive me?
Here in particular, I speak for those who are also drawing a blank on whatever a 'fixed world' might be, some kind of post-worldgen thing?Quote from: devlogEditors for fixed worlds
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8233069#msg8233069
LilyInTheWater: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8234044#msg8234044
The luck thing is like the mummy curse, yeah. And the multiple rolls one should be self-explanatory if you do it multiple times within a week, unless that's not working.
There aren't any negative years in any meaningful way - the ones you see from ages are just generated, and the others come from a simple 'prehistory' routine that generates the demons and so forth, and any event that happens there gets "time before" time treatment.
Quote from: LilyInTheWater
Does the "myth" part of the magic and myths update only include creation myths, or will there be other tales involving the gods as well in the initial worldgen process? Things like that one myth where Amaterasu hid a cave after Susanoo threw a flayed horse at her so the gods had to convene to try to get her out of the cave, for example.
also
Will there be a way to easily understand how a world's magic system works upon worldgen? Obviously there's room for discovery in gameplay, but it wouldn't hurt if there was at least a rough summary of how each world's magic system is set up on worldgen, unless the creation myth is supposed to explain the magic system as well.
We haven't gotten into that so far, but yeah, we have some notes along those lines, though it's mostly still to determine some property of the world or another. But as you get closer to the recorded history portion, and the gods are still around, then the actions won't need to have those world-altering effects so much. It's all part of that messy line between the old-style world gen and this new earlier-than-history portion, and hopefully it'll feel like various of the real-world myths floating around sometimes.
The myths are supposed to create and thereby explain what's going on, but it might be vague or unclear. But we're not sure at this point how exposition will work. If there's magical research and discovery, this implies that there are things you don't know in advance, but broadly speaking we want to introduce people to the world that has been made to allow them to have a settlement or roleplay in it without feeling like they are completely outside of it at first. Part of that can happen in world gen, when it shows the myths (or a myth) and gives some background, part of it can happen when choosing a game start, and so on.
Quote from: Dr Disposable
I was wondering about dragon generation, would dragons be different world to world which I presume is the case, or would there be several dragon types like how there are cave dragons and regular dragons.
And what are going to happen to cave dragons?
It isn't entirely clear how this'll play out, but since this'll come in at the earliest with all the myth world specifiers, it'd just fit in right there, as an ability to use a text file 'dragon category' to generate some types, or the ability to use premade creatures, or mods of either kind. I'm not sure if either of the vanilla creatures will make it - they are pretty underspecified and uninteresting, so using a creator of classes of dragon to make both species and unique creatures (as we do with demons in a hard-coded fashion) will be better. It's quite possible though that any given world might just have one 'dragon' made in this way.
Quote from: ror6ax
Has generative/adaptive music in DF been suggested before?
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8234132#msg8234132
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8234191#msg8234191
Assuming you mean actually making the music in some listenable format rather than the current musical form generator, then, yeah, it has been suggested, and it's also a whole field that I'm not quite qualified to enter, which is why I did things the way I did. I have enough of a musical background that it'd be fun to mess around with, but I don't think any result I could produce would justify the time.
Quote from: Aid
Hello Tarn how are Zack and his health?Have you changed the myth generator in any way from the moment you introduced it to GDC?
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8234140#msg8234140
He's doing well! Yeah, as Urlance says, I haven't anything done meaningful with it. It's at the point where it would be better to work it into the main game than develop it in parallel.
Quote from: Murr2
Will we have a multicore version for the steam release?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8240303#msg8240303
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8240469#msg8240469
It's not going to be any more multithreaded than it is now, with the graphics on a separate thread.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
In my years of playing the game I've never seen a successful kobold thief. Are there any plans to buff ambushers before the big wait?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8240691#msg8240691
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8241535#msg8241535
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8241561#msg8241561
I'm not sure if anything will change with them with the army stuff. It's not going to be the focus, but there could be some changes to ambushes along with the siege changes.
Quote from: Prismatic
1) What exactly does the [IS_SECRET:MUNDANE_RESEARCH_POSSIBLE] interaction token do? The wiki simply states that "the secret can be researched by mundane means", which isn't particularly enlightening.
2) What is the cut-off at which a gait is considered to be fast with regard to the [IE_HAVE_FAST_EFFORTLESS_GAIT_SPEED] and [IE_ALL_SLOW_EFFORTLESS_GAIT_SPEED] tokens?
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8241393#msg8241393
1) It doesn't do anything. If I recollect, it predates all the talk about big waits and myth/magic stuff, and we were going to do something more simple with it. Now it may just end up being replaced by whatever comes next there.
2) Both of these take a number - so like [IE_HAVE_FAST_EFFORTLESS_GAIT_SPEED:1000]. Then it would check if you have one in that range (speed less than or equal to 1000, since lower is faster.) And for ALL_SLOW, it checks if all of the gaits are a greater or equal number than the one you give it. In the shrine curse, it uses the first one to make sure it doesn't pick an animal that is too slow to play.
Quote from: Beag
Will there be an updated look screen for when our adventurers look at a creature in the steam release similar to what was shown to be upcoming for fortress mode?
It's going to be updated in some way! It might not use the same style sheet just because things like thoughts and other information displayed there aren't normally available in adv mode.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
- The release note said meal value affects meal satisfaction. Does meal quality factor in beyond its value enhancement factor?
- Does the new meal satisfaction logic affect meal selection so dorfs now first look for favored ingredients and then value, or does the previous logic remain, i.e. favored ingredients and then closest (with satisfaction due to value being down to luck/stockpile design)?
The emotion type and strength of the emotion is affected by the value which is affected by the quality. I'm not sure what else the quality would do dirshouldectly in this context - if we did make some change that impacted the emotion directly from quality, it should probably also just increase value. Not that we've done a great job with that concept overall.
I updated the meal selection logic to account for the new system - value is included in the process. That is certainly one of those things I might've overlooked, but this time I remembered, ha ha.
Quote from: ZM5
With the second pass of the villains update, will we see NPCs like bandit leaders or notable mercs/wanderers also utilize mounts and pets? It feels kinda strange that only the player really uses either in adventure mode right now.
More than the villains part, the concurrent army update might see things along those lines. Certainly far more people should be riding horses and critters when available than we're seeing now.
Post by: clinodev on February 02, 2021, 02:41:00 am
Traffic is already noticeably up on the subreddit with 47.05! It's so nice to see people getting excited about playing again!
Post by: Alu on February 02, 2021, 03:01:32 am
Is there a plan for the interface to provide some sort of farm management overview to see or control individual seed reserves and material flow into produce which does or does not drop seeds?
Post by: Dankrou on February 02, 2021, 06:23:03 am
Will the "police" system be reviewed?
The situation: the guard notices a thief who steals an artifact does not prevent the crime but runs past the criminal because he needs to first report this to the sheriff.
Will it be possible to add to the guards the ability to prevent a crime based on the situation, and then only report it to the sheriff?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 02, 2021, 08:13:33 am
Hello! I apologize in advance if I did not formulate my question well in English.Villains update (which is all of that) was paused before most of it was complete to work on Steam. Work resumes after Steam release is fairly stable.
Will the "police" system be reviewed?
The situation: the guard notices a thief who steals an artifact does not prevent the crime but runs past the criminal because he needs to first report this to the sheriff.
Will it be possible to add to the guards the ability to prevent a crime based on the situation, and then only report it to the sheriff?
Post by: Dankrou on February 02, 2021, 08:38:56 am
Villains update (which is all of that) was paused before most of it was complete to work on Steam. Work resumes after Steam release is fairly stable.Got it, thanks for the answer.
Post by: recon1o6 on February 03, 2021, 09:02:10 am
Are there any plans for an in game glossary or recipe tree? Eg Iron is made of 3 different ores: hematite, lignite and magnetite. Combine with flux stone to make pig iron
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 03, 2021, 11:36:19 am
With the UI updates, are there any plans to have skills consolidated eg metalsmith and metal crafter, fish cleaner/dissectorThese are really suggestions thinly disguised as questions.
Are there any plans for an in game glossary or recipe tree? Eg Iron is made of 3 different ores: hematite, lignite and magnetite. Combine with flux stone to make pig iron
1. Hasn't come up as any of the larger stumbling blocks for players, so bigger fish will probably be tackled in the game play improvements made in conjunction with/after the UI overhaul.
2. These aren't static, but built up from raw definitions, so any in-game description will have to derive its contents from the raw contents. That's not particularly hard, though.
Post by: chinesecosmo on February 03, 2021, 06:10:39 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 03, 2021, 07:24:36 pm
Have any discussions been had about future Steam releases/add-ons/DLC? Things like new music or art packs. Presumably you wouldn’t want to lock any gameplay behind another paywall, but do you envision the $20 Steam version as being the only DF-thing someone would be able to buy?Good question. Much as we all hate DLC, if the new music is popular, I could see official music packs being added. Someone's gotta pay the musicians presumably.
Now, if someone really clever came up with a program that would replicate the procedural music being played in the tavern in realtime I'd pay for that.
Post by: chinesecosmo on February 03, 2021, 09:25:39 pm
Good question. Much as we all hate DLC, if the new music is popular, I could see official music packs being added. Someone's gotta pay the musicians presumably.
Now, if someone really clever came up with a program that would replicate the procedural music being played in the tavern in realtime I'd pay for that.
I saw that Tarn mentioned on Feb 01 that he can't justify the time it would take but surely after he makes his first $10 million he can pay someone else to take the time for him. :P
It would be rad (https://soundcloud.com/musicmastermsh/sets/songs-of-zavazsil)
But yeah, I mean even things like regional variants of armors & things. Or 100s of new statues to better depict the subject matter as described by the flavor text. It's hard to reconcile my distaste for the Paradox model of DLC and my wish to support development until the game hits 1.0, but I'm curious if any discussion re: long-term monetization has been had.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 03, 2021, 11:41:05 pm
Probably more something Kitfox might consider investing in if DF turns out to be a good source of income for them.
Good question. Much as we all hate DLC, if the new music is popular, I could see official music packs being added. Someone's gotta pay the musicians presumably.
Now, if someone really clever came up with a program that would replicate the procedural music being played in the tavern in realtime I'd pay for that.
I saw that Tarn mentioned on Feb 01 that he can't justify the time it would take but surely after he makes his first $10 million he can pay someone else to take the time for him. :P
It would be rad (https://soundcloud.com/musicmastermsh/sets/songs-of-zavazsil)
Although, the long-term result might be people only making and maintaining our favourite utils if they're getting paid, so perhaps we don't want to go there.
Post by: squamous on February 04, 2021, 07:31:49 am
2. Also regarding the army update, will it be possible to see stuff like cities being overrun by soldier and stumbling into battles?
3. A lot of demon stuff seems to be tied to the existence of procedurally generated demons (ie custom demons won't spawn unless they're enabled etc). Are there any tags or adv worldgen edits I could make to negate this?
4. Will future releases let us create custom modded night creature experiments?
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 04, 2021, 07:49:16 am
Regarding the previously mentioned upcoming army update, will there be anything like joining another party rather than leading one yourself? It's a bit difficult to describe, but like, you could say enlist with an army for a time in adventure mode and your character will be dragged along the overlord in whatever direction the army goes, participating in battles and sieges and all that.Doesn't look like something that's in the scope of an army improvement push.
Rather, it's adventure mode expansion into the rather difficult territory of limited player agency, such as e.g. being possessed, under a compulsion, or being imprisoned. In addition to that, the world armies would have to be made to act in a non abstract manner, at least when an adventurer is with them (not only the actual battles that adventurers may happen upon, but also planning, recon, sabotage, marching, training,...).
Post by: AudiRgr8 on February 05, 2021, 02:50:28 pm
Will animals that die from old age ever be butcherable / if not, will an animal trainer be able to notify you when they are nearing their natural lifespan?
Will swords and weapons be able to be encrusted with gems?
And lastly,
Will there ever be an option to migrate a fortress? As in taking some of your current dwarves, supplies and animals and building some wagons and starting a new fortress, either abandoning or retiring the other one?
This game has been a massive influence on my life for nearly a decade so wanted to say thank you to both Tarn and Zach for continuing to work on this masterwork. :)
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 05, 2021, 05:08:11 pm
I seems to me that setting out anew with an experienced crew would be a strong candidate for a starting scenario, and so among the ones that may be considered when that arc is started.
Post by: Hartsteen on February 06, 2021, 04:22:29 am
dirshouldectly
As a non-native speaker I really pondered about that for quite a time... :D
Post by: Bumber on February 06, 2021, 11:55:38 am
dirshouldectly
As a non-native speaker I really pondered about that for quite a time... :D
Looks like "should" got accidentally dragged-and-dropped into "directly".
It's a verannoyingy browser feature, IMO.
Post by: FrankVill on February 07, 2021, 08:42:27 am
Just looking at the workshops, there are three possible situations:
1- you have to choose a task in a workshop to build an object (a bed).
2 - you have to synchronize some workshops with different raw materials / tasks to get an object (soap)
3 - in Fishery it is not necessary to order any tasks, if there is a fish, the dwarf fisherman will do the task alone.
I understand that if everything were automated the Fortress mode could become contemplative and possibly boring, but if you have to be attentive to every step or detail the experience could become tedious and overwhelming. For that reason it is important to strike a balance and I suppose this question will often be a headache when designing DF.
My question is:
- Looking into the distant future, what role will task automation play or how far do you hope it can go?
- If the player does not have to worry about certain routine things, what do you hope he can get his attention to during the game?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 07, 2021, 04:59:23 pm
Recently, I was thinking about automation in Fortress mode.Don't forget that (no matter how much some people hate it because they're used to Dfhack versions) we have automation already:
Just looking at the workshops, there are three possible situations:
1- you have to choose a task in a workshop to build an object (a bed).
2 - you have to synchronize some workshops with different raw materials / tasks to get an object (soap)
3 - in Fishery it is not necessary to order any tasks, if there is a fish, the dwarf fisherman will do the task alone.
I understand that if everything were automated the Fortress mode could become contemplative and possibly boring, but if you have to be attentive to every step or detail the experience could become tedious and overwhelming. For that reason it is important to strike a balance and I suppose this question will often be a headache when designing DF.
My question is:
- Looking into the distant future, what role will task automation play or how far do you hope it can go?
- If the player does not have to worry about certain routine things, what do you hope he can get his attention to during the game?
4. You use the manager to simply order tasks to be carried out when resources are available and let the dwarves worry about what workshop to use (with fine tuning in workshop Profiles).
Post by: Ariosto on February 07, 2021, 08:42:57 pm
I'm wondering if there was ever a conceptual idea to establish some sort of volunteer based team whose aim was to track down and find solutions for the backlog of bugs that has built up over time. Now I realize that The Toady One doesn't necessarily need or want help, but I am seeing this from a less then direct angle. The plan would be for a group of volunteers who are familiar with at least parts of the game's code to try and pinpoint what is causing certain bugs, attempt to solve it, and then provide a report detailing what was changed and where in the code. Other volunteers, ideally the more experienced, would go over the report and try to determine if said solution is "safe" and would not cause errors elsewhere in the game, and should they feel confident in a solution they'd publish it. Toady himself could then choose whether or not to act on it, I definitely will not rule out cases where a found solution to a bug might cause problems in later versions and so may be found undesirable, but DF players would also have a choice to act on it.
Mind something like this could already exist in some form and I'm just not aware or failing to recognize them.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 07, 2021, 10:59:05 pm
Bit late to ask this but....The code isn't open, so no.
I'm wondering if there was ever a conceptual idea to establish some sort of volunteer based team whose aim was to track down and find solutions for the backlog of bugs that has built up over time. Now I realize that The Toady One doesn't necessarily need or want help, but I am seeing this from a less then direct angle. The plan would be for a group of volunteers who are familiar with at least parts of the game's code to try and pinpoint what is causing certain bugs, attempt to solve it, and then provide a report detailing what was changed and where in the code. Other volunteers, ideally the more experienced, would go over the report and try to determine if said solution is "safe" and would not cause errors elsewhere in the game, and should they feel confident in a solution they'd publish it. Toady himself could then choose whether or not to act on it, I definitely will not rule out cases where a found solution to a bug might cause problems in later versions and so may be found undesirable, but DF players would also have a choice to act on it.
Mind something like this could already exist in some form and I'm just not aware or failing to recognize them.
Bug tracker is run by volunteers, some of whom can hack their way in with Dfhack, etc to suggest solutions. But only Toady has the code.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 08, 2021, 04:08:42 am
Post by: ror6ax on February 08, 2021, 05:54:57 am
What I mean here is external piece of code that runs some scenarios and compares if their output is as expected.
That would eliminate the need to extensively play-test all new versions of the game to validate every single action.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 08, 2021, 07:40:24 am
Inspired by Ariosto's question - has an idea of test suite been raised?Toady has debugging tools he's mentioned.
What I mean here is external piece of code that runs some scenarios and compares if their output is as expected.
That would eliminate the need to extensively play-test all new versions of the game to validate every single action.
Would spending the time to develop himself a test suite be of some benefit compared to the tests he already carries out?
Post by: Ariosto on February 09, 2021, 01:45:07 pm
The code isn't open, so no.
Bug tracker is run by volunteers, some of whom can hack their way in with Dfhack, etc to suggest solutions. But only Toady has the code.
Adding to Shonai_Dweller's response: While the source code isn't available, people investigating bugs can identify the cause with an impressive accuracy at times. The werecreature birth bug fixed in the latest release is an example of that. Finding the cause of a problem is often the most time consuming part of fixing bugs.I'm not surprised, even if I have to admit that I was thinking in terms of the game code available (i.e. the downloaded files) rather than the game code proper. I wasn't aware that the Bug Tracker was run by volunteers though, but I suppose I never gave it a hard glance in the past beyond seeing if certain bugs were logged or solved.
Toady has debugging tools he's mentioned.It would be dependent on the amount of time it would take to set up and whether it could be done in a manner that would satisfy Toady's privacy when it came to the DF code, but it would provide an extensive supply of manhours and computing power with which he could use to order tests. The caveat of course as you note is the amount of time it would take to set up the test suite, and honestly I'm not sure how long it would take; in the long-term it would always pay back, but the short-term cost I can't gauge.
Would spending the time to develop himself a test suite be of some benefit compared to the tests he already carries out?
Post by: FrankVill on February 10, 2021, 01:02:18 pm
Recently, I was thinking about automation in Fortress mode.Don't forget that (no matter how much some people hate it because they're used to Dfhack versions) we have automation already:
Just looking at the workshops, there are three possible situations:
1- you have to choose a task in a workshop to build an object (a bed).
2 - you have to synchronize some workshops with different raw materials / tasks to get an object (soap)
3 - in Fishery it is not necessary to order any tasks, if there is a fish, the dwarf fisherman will do the task alone.
I understand that if everything were automated the Fortress mode could become contemplative and possibly boring, but if you have to be attentive to every step or detail the experience could become tedious and overwhelming. For that reason it is important to strike a balance and I suppose this question will often be a headache when designing DF.
My question is:
- Looking into the distant future, what role will task automation play or how far do you hope it can go?
- If the player does not have to worry about certain routine things, what do you hope he can get his attention to during the game?
4. You use the manager to simply order tasks to be carried out when resources are available and let the dwarves worry about what workshop to use (with fine tuning in workshop Profiles).
Yes, you're right :)
In fact, I enjoy using it. Although it is necessary to have some experience and a little knowledge in this game beforehand for that. When I started playing I was scared of the manager's menu, I only started playing with him two years later.
I asked my question because some workshops caught my attention (tanner's shop or fishery) because in those cases dwarfs don't need to receive any task from me or the manager.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on February 11, 2021, 03:57:46 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 11, 2021, 05:19:58 pm
Is "bogeymen" pronounced /bʊ.gi,mɛn/ or /bəu.gi.mɛn/?Boo pronunciation is spelt "Boogyman". So not that.
Post by: Ziusudra on February 11, 2021, 05:33:53 pm
As if we spell things (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bogeyman) like they sound in this language or anything is ever that simple.Is "bogeymen" pronounced /bʊ.gi,mɛn/ or /bəu.gi.mɛn/?Boo pronunciation is spelt "Boogyman". So not that.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 11, 2021, 05:41:37 pm
Really?As if we spell things (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bogeyman) like they sound in this language or anything is ever that simple.Is "bogeymen" pronounced /bʊ.gi,mɛn/ or /bəu.gi.mɛn/?Boo pronunciation is spelt "Boogyman". So not that.
Ok. Google failed me then. Why even have a word "Boogyman" if you're going to pronounce Bogeyman the same way. Ha ha.
Raymond Briggs fans pronounce it Bow (as in Bow-tie).
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 11, 2021, 05:45:45 pm
The logic of English spelling: How do you pronounce "ghoti"?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: voliol on February 11, 2021, 07:16:52 pm
Is "bogeymen" pronounced /bʊ.gi,mɛn/ or /bəu.gi.mɛn/?
Wikipedia has /bəʊɡimæn/ and /boʊɡimæn/ listed, but I’d imagine there are further dialectal variants.
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 11, 2021, 07:50:26 pm
* In terms of baby mismanagement, would mothers in the military be programmed with better baby handling UI (putting them down for one), or are prospective parents (dads and mothers all) going to pick up any incidental babies on the battlefield and start using them as improv shields. (yeah that'll sort their stress-balance out all-right) like they roughhandle their own offspring.
* And how do you expect to handle some of the odder fringe cases of babies left behind from experiments or semi-intelligents (sieging and wild trolls comes to mind killed in the midst of combat) who don't really fit into the category of being socially presentable unless you have some weird hands-off goblin creche thing going on to encourage it.
I can imagine goblins might even feel a small fuzzy feeling welling inside about becoming the private parental guardian of some child they have snatched from the field of battle or out theiving, each warrior grabbing every youngling they can in arm before trying to scarper or toasting their victory over a fortress, but probably loathe actually looking after them communally.
That and the dwarf couple with a awkward adoptive troll son, who whilst very groomed and much loved is undoubtedly still a troll in a tunic.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on February 11, 2021, 09:32:01 pm
The logic of English spelling: How do you pronounce "ghoti"?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
No, you can't spell fish "ghoti" and have it be consistent with english spelling. However, you can spell it "pfysche", which is still pretty ridiculous.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 11, 2021, 09:40:07 pm
It's the word ghoti (made up word, but still a classic example) being pronounced in the same way as you would pronounce fish. No-one's spelling any existing words differently.The logic of English spelling: How do you pronounce "ghoti"?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
No, you can't spell fish "ghoti" and have it be consistent with english spelling. However, you can spell it "pfysche", which is still pretty ridiculous.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti
Post by: Nilsolm on February 12, 2021, 05:54:40 am
Is there something like an official pronunciation guide for the languages in the game? I've always wondered how all those dwarven vowels are supposed to be pronounced.
Post by: Bumber on February 12, 2021, 04:28:35 pm
It's the word ghoti (made up word, but still a classic example) being pronounced in the same way as you would pronounce fish. No-one's spelling any existing words differently.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti
It's not a word consistent with English logic, though. Placement of letters is important.
Post by: voliol on February 12, 2021, 06:17:36 pm
Speaking of pronunciation:
Is there something like an official pronunciation guide for the languages in the game? I've always wondered how all those dwarven vowels are supposed to be pronounced.
My guess, from knowing the languages were thrown together relatively quickly as a placeholder for eventual procgen languages, is that the letters for each language were chosen on gut feeling, with the available codepage having lots of diacritics to spice up the orthography. It's only speculation though, Toady will have to (de)confirm it.
That said, you're not the first person to wonder about it, as some forumgoers went out of their way to codify the Dwarven language (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.0) a couple of years ago. Personally I favor Loam's comments (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.msg7941045#msg7941045) on phonology (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.msg7996111#msg7996111).
Post by: Nilsolm on February 13, 2021, 05:38:10 am
My guess, from knowing the languages were thrown together relatively quickly as a placeholder for eventual procgen languages, is that the letters for each language were chosen on gut feeling, with the available codepage having lots of diacritics to spice up the orthography. It's only speculation though, Toady will have to (de)confirm it.
That said, you're not the first person to wonder about it, as some forumgoers went out of their way to codify the Dwarven language (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.0) a couple of years ago. Personally I favor Loam's comments (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.msg7941045#msg7941045) on phonology (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.msg7996111#msg7996111).
Thanks, that thread looks interesting! I'll look at it more closely when I find the time.
Post by: Uthimienure on February 13, 2021, 10:22:10 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on February 13, 2021, 02:43:10 pm
Why can't we make wooden training maces & warhammers?
[TRAINING] token in weapons.txt creates wood training variants of them default in carpenter workshops & for elves to use in war if they also have the corresponding weapon tokens but i guess if you want to ask Toady, it might by insightful to see why its left off game development-wise. The only other thing i'll say that [USE_WOOD_WEAPONS] leaves off that they can't use exotic wood they produce the logs for by reactions & such, but only by renewable wood resources.
Like glumprong/silver barb for goblins, they're able to colonize the right spots and even utilize with tokens, but because the trees are infertile with no seeds, and barbs don't have a suitable cookable/industrial component they never incorporate it into their decorations, shields or clothing. Hopefully it'll get noticed and scooped up for the premium DF releases along with the maggot cheese if the fields are expanded.
Post by: Sver on February 14, 2021, 10:26:56 am
Post by: Buttery_Mess on February 16, 2021, 01:11:57 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 16, 2021, 04:45:39 pm
With the map rewrite, coupled with the Myth & Magic release, will there be a possibility of solid clouds that we can walk around on- that will float over the scenery beneath?Kind of a suggestion.
Floating castles have been mentioned, so likely quite possible to do clouds.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 16, 2021, 05:49:36 pm
Flying ("solid") clouds, islands, castles, cosmic shards (or something like that) should be enabled by the map rewrite. The time at which any of these will be introduced won't be known until it happens, though. However, placing it above another piece of terrain (as opposed to just have it as it's own kind of "island" from which you can fall to a certain death) probably requires more work than just "another dimension".With the map rewrite, coupled with the Myth & Magic release, will there be a possibility of solid clouds that we can walk around on- that will float over the scenery beneath?Kind of a suggestion.
Floating castles have been mentioned, so likely quite possible to do clouds.
Post by: Hellrazor on February 23, 2021, 04:23:26 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 23, 2021, 05:01:12 pm
Are there any plans to add off-site (wildlife) hunting missions?Nothing has been mentioned so it almost certainly shouldn't happen before Myth & Magic. I would assume that to be some generalization of the army logic, in which case it would fit in with things like geological surveys, natural resource inventory, magical effect loci localization, threat scout missions, etc. However, with the current abundance of food hunting expeditions would be somewhat pointless, so it probably wouldn't happen before a revamp of agriculture.
Post by: Broms on February 24, 2021, 06:38:54 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 25, 2021, 03:24:40 am
Any plans to allow the creation/filling of a wagon and sending it to trade off-site?A return of the economy and trade is in the future somewhere after Myth & Magic. It's not unreasonable that trade "armies" could be introduced after that. It's probably better to make this suggestion in the suggestion forum, though, as Toady won't look back to this thread at that time, but he does look at the suggestions.
Post by: clinodev on February 27, 2021, 05:52:07 am
Quote
Graphics: 1GB of VRAM: Intel HD 3000 GPU / AMD HD 5450 / Nvidia 9400 GT
which I'll note are all 10-12 year old.
Now that you have a lot of work into the new graphics, and your multilevel view and so on, does that still seem like a reasonable requirement for Premium, or is it likely to be revised up?
I suspect it's probably not far off, but they're old enough graphics solutions that it might have been the default text filled in on the store form or something. :D
(I've been asked about this a few times recently, which I take as a compliment for you and the artists.)
Post by: FrankVill on February 27, 2021, 01:01:44 pm
In order to make Adventure Mode a little more newbie friendly to the Premium version, what do you have in mind about the user interface?
Post by: Beag on February 28, 2021, 11:55:36 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 28, 2021, 04:13:59 pm
The recent interviews have made me wonder: in the myth and magic update will possible generated playable races include hybrids similar to centaurs? For example a human upper half and a tiger lower half?Generated playable races were demonstrated in the Mythgen prototype. Then it's just a matter of whether the Centaur Problem itself gets addressed with a nice generator at that time. Seems like it would be a lot of fun to have both generated from scratch races and "combined raws" races in our worlds.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 28, 2021, 05:20:08 pm
The recent interviews have made me wonder: in the myth and magic update will possible generated playable races include hybrids similar to centaurs? For example a human upper half and a tiger lower half?Unless Toady solves the Centaur Problem in a side project it's unlikely it would be tackled in the shock full context of the first Myth & Magic arc. It's not critical to either Myth or Magic, and probably not a core pillar for future functionality (like the map rewrite is).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 28, 2021, 05:27:29 pm
You don't see the link between "generating new races" (Mythgen core feature) and "generating new races (from existing raws)" (Centaur Problem)? Seems a perfectly natural time to approach the problem. When else would you do it? Culture & Society rewrite? Boats?The recent interviews have made me wonder: in the myth and magic update will possible generated playable races include hybrids similar to centaurs? For example a human upper half and a tiger lower half?Unless Toady solves the Centaur Problem in a side project it's unlikely it would be tackled in the shock full context of the first Myth & Magic arc. It's not critical to either Myth or Magic, and probably not a core pillar for future functionality (like the map rewrite is).
Post by: voliol on February 28, 2021, 09:35:47 pm
Myth & Magic will likely come as multiple (waves of) releases, PatrikLundell probably means it won't come in the first of those, the one which will partially be focused on the map rewrite. And features that fit well within an update thematically have been skipped/suspended before, such as tavern games and recipes for the tavern release. Another example are the various 0.47 night creatures that didn't make it in when vampires and werebeasts did, but were unexpectedly added through a tangent for the villains release.You don't see the link between "generating new races" (Mythgen core feature) and "generating new races (from existing raws)" (Centaur Problem)? Seems a perfectly natural time to approach the problem. When else would you do it? Culture & Society rewrite? Boats?The recent interviews have made me wonder: in the myth and magic update will possible generated playable races include hybrids similar to centaurs? For example a human upper half and a tiger lower half?Unless Toady solves the Centaur Problem in a side project it's unlikely it would be tackled in the shock full context of the first Myth & Magic arc. It's not critical to either Myth or Magic, and probably not a core pillar for future functionality (like the map rewrite is).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 28, 2021, 09:59:24 pm
He said "arc", but OK, maybe my mistake. We all know Mythgen is likely to be multiple releases. Mythgen without a Myth Generator and nothing but a map rewrite which doesn't do anything would seem like a bit of an anticlimax.Myth & Magic will likely come as multiple (waves of) releases, PatrikLundell probably means it won't come in the first of those, the one which will partially be focused on the map rewrite. And features that fit well within an update thematically have been skipped/suspended before, such as tavern games and recipes for the tavern release. Another example are the various 0.47 night creatures that didn't make it in when vampires and werebeasts did, but were unexpectedly added through a tangent for the villains release.You don't see the link between "generating new races" (Mythgen core feature) and "generating new races (from existing raws)" (Centaur Problem)? Seems a perfectly natural time to approach the problem. When else would you do it? Culture & Society rewrite? Boats?The recent interviews have made me wonder: in the myth and magic update will possible generated playable races include hybrids similar to centaurs? For example a human upper half and a tiger lower half?Unless Toady solves the Centaur Problem in a side project it's unlikely it would be tackled in the shock full context of the first Myth & Magic arc. It's not critical to either Myth or Magic, and probably not a core pillar for future functionality (like the map rewrite is).
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 01, 2021, 02:54:03 am
However, Toady will provide us with his current view on the Centaur Problem issue in the very near future.
Post by: Nopenope on March 01, 2021, 05:37:43 am
Right now when I want to search something and I make a typo or something and search something again, the forum tells me to wait 5 seconds, except I often estimate badly and wait for only 3 seconds or something, so I get the error message and have to wait 5 more seconds, and so on. Also, the 'display more relevant results' option is useless and should not be the default (it should be 'most recent results' instead). Could you please fix it?
During the 'finish the villains release' period, will player fortresses be able to weave nefarious plots of their own? I guess raids sort of count but I was more thinking of assassinations, hostage taking, and generally more complex endeavors involving handlers and sleepers on foreign sites, just like foreign entities do with your fortress.
Now that literally every single character in the world can mount stuff except for citizens in fortress mode, what are the remaining technical hurdles?
Could you explain the detailed mechanics of how insurrections and claims work? The wiki is really lacking.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 01, 2021, 06:09:57 am
Quote
During the 'finish the villains release' period, will player fortresses be able to weave nefarious plots of their own? I guess raids sort of count but I was more thinking of assassinationsNot quite the same, but Player Adventurers will be able to be villains, with plots, networks, assassinations and so on, along with the current ability to build an underground hideout.
Post by: Toady One on March 01, 2021, 07:33:41 am
Quote from: Alu
Is there a plan for the interface to provide some sort of farm management overview to see or control individual seed reserves and material flow into produce which does or does not drop seeds?
I'm still working through the special buildings, so we should see soon! The seed use restrictions from the old 'z' screen certainly don't seem to be enough to keep seeds on hand.
Quote from: Dankrou
Will the "police" system be reviewed?
The situation: the guard notices a thief who steals an artifact does not prevent the crime but runs past the criminal because he needs to first report this to the sheriff.
Will it be possible to add to the guards the ability to prevent a crime based on the situation, and then only report it to the sheriff?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8243481#msg8243481
Dankrou (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8243493#msg8243493
Quote from: recon1o6
With the UI updates, are there any plans to have skills consolidated eg metalsmith and metal crafter, fish cleaner/dissector
Are there any plans for an in game glossary or recipe tree? Eg Iron is made of 3 different ores: hematite, lignite and magnetite. Combine with flux stone to make pig iron
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8243981#msg8243981
Yeah, I imagine PatrikLundell's correct, in that certainly some of the skills are underused, but they might still be with us by Premium time.
You see the glossary information scattered around a bit, hidden in portions of the 'z' screen and so forth, but it could afford to be a lot better. It's still not decided exactly which direction the tutorialization will go, but certainly that kind of information should be available.
Quote from: chinesecosmo
Have any discussions been had about future Steam releases/add-ons/DLC? Things like new music or art packs. Presumably you wouldn’t want to lock any gameplay behind another paywall, but do you envision the $20 Steam version as being the only DF-thing someone would be able to buy?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8244100#msg8244100
chinesecosmo (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8244134#msg8244134
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8244161#msg8244161
Yeah, I think the only discussion we've had at this point is about the music - it's a reasonable thing to want from the musician's perspective and we're all for it if they decide they want a separate sale item for that. I don't recall if a decision there has been finalized.
Quote from: squamous
1. Regarding the previously mentioned upcoming army update, will there be anything like joining another party rather than leading one yourself? It's a bit difficult to describe, but like, you could say enlist with an army for a time in adventure mode and your character will be dragged along the overlord in whatever direction the army goes, participating in battles and sieges and all that.
2. Also regarding the army update, will it be possible to see stuff like cities being overrun by soldier and stumbling into battles?
3. A lot of demon stuff seems to be tied to the existence of procedurally generated demons (ie custom demons won't spawn unless they're enabled etc). Are there any tags or adv worldgen edits I could make to negate this?
4. Will future releases let us create custom modded night creature experiments?
1. PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8244292#msg8244292
Yeah, that's the exact issue - when you are a subordinate character that isn't in a fairly free-roaming role like an agent, there's potentially a lot of waiting around and fruitless busywork. Theoretically this can be managed, but since we don't want to bring the game away from a simulator and introduce drama mechanically (as we do with the current dwarf mode sieges, which aren't ideal at all), it's a harder problem. If the player does end up as some kind of lieutenant in the army mode, it might be to expand hearthpersonesque responsibilities to have some more structure perhaps, or to be involved freely in some larger goal where you can draw some more people -- or as you say, as part of a single march and engagement. As long as you don't end up on guard duty for months at some peaceful location it should be kind of okay.
2. When we added the armies splitting into ~10 groups and rampaging around the cities on the travel map, there was the question at the time of doing just as you say, and it was put on the back burner since we couldn't raze the tile-resolution buildings properly. That's still true. I'm not sure at this point how that'll be managed or when. It would be sensible for it to be an option even for the player where it makes sense, but we need some mechanical stuff.
3. For the spire-creating demons, looking at how it works, having UNIQUE_DEMON and CAN_LEARN/INTELLIGENT on them should put them in the candidate pool, without them needing to be procedural and even with the proc demons set to zero, but you can't turn off the spire process for generated/raw creatures with those tags (UNIQUE_DEMON is overloaded in that sense.) I may be misunderstanding the question. Do the custom spire demons not appear in world gen if proc demons are turned off (Bottom Layer needs to be turned on, since the spire connects)? Or do you mean after digging?
4. What piece did you have in mind? That when an experimenter runs an experiment, it might have a pre-determined outcome based on some tags/raw text linked to the experimenter type or otherwise? Right now it's all linked to the procedural system, but having another way to get there would be reasonable. This probably fits in cleanly with myth/magic concepts of corruption etc., and ways of converting people magically with various outcomes that are either random or not.
Quote from: AudiRgr8
Will animals that die from old age ever be butcherable / if not, will an animal trainer be able to notify you when they are nearing their natural lifespan?
Will swords and weapons be able to be encrusted with gems?
And lastly,
Will there ever be an option to migrate a fortress? As in taking some of your current dwarves, supplies and animals and building some wagons and starting a new fortress, either abandoning or retiring the other one?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8244983#msg8244983
We haven't changed anything about these yet. They all seem reasonable enough to me, but it's hard to say when I can get to changes in directions that don't fit some current plan, as usual. PatrikLundell's right that the ability to interact with old forts in some way seems to fit in with the embark scenario stuff.
Quote from: FrankVill
Recently, I was thinking about automation in Fortress mode.
Just looking at the workshops, there are three possible situations:
1- you have to choose a task in a workshop to build an object (a bed).
2 - you have to synchronize some workshops with different raw materials / tasks to get an object (soap)
3 - in Fishery it is not necessary to order any tasks, if there is a fish, the dwarf fisherman will do the task alone.
I understand that if everything were automated the Fortress mode could become contemplative and possibly boring, but if you have to be attentive to every step or detail the experience could become tedious and overwhelming. For that reason it is important to strike a balance and I suppose this question will often be a headache when designing DF.
My question is:
- Looking into the distant future, what role will task automation play or how far do you hope it can go?
- If the player does not have to worry about certain routine things, what do you hope he can get his attention to during the game?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8245732#msg8245732
FrankVill (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8246891#msg8246891
Yeah, the responses mention the manager, so ignoring that and looking more broadly, it does seem like ideally you'd want to be able to look at the player's goals, or responses to challenges and choices they face, and have the game be able to respond to their resource/labor priorities. This is difficult in various ways of course, but having the dwarves be able to reason about supply chains, even retool workshops (after they get broken up into furniture-and-zones), or whatever, in response to broader goals might be neat if it isn't a total disaster (and the player opts in to that level of autonomy?). The 'autolabor' style profession stuff is kind of like this - I haven't done it yet, and I imagine it takes serious tweaking to get it right, and the player might still want to interact with it, but overall one could make a program that plays dwarf fortress well enough to have a thriving fort, and in that way it's possible to consider all other aspects of the fort as automate-able, especially when it comes to basic needs and so forth. Of course, players working with supply chains directly can be fun, but we're assuming for the question that it isn't the focus, that we have a player who isn't playing it for logistical challenges (a playstyle that should still exist when there's some more automation, it would just be more engaging with more interesting logistics.)
So what does that leave? Assume the basic industry of the entire fortress is completely automated etc. Certain kinds of issues don't come up, and player engagement is reduced. There's still, theoretically and in this future, a lot left! The outside world is one - sieges/diplomacy/trade, villains/vampires/etc., or finding a way to avert the end of the world should worldgen hand you one. The underground is another. The player can design their fort, and with the map rewrite, we intend the underground to be more varied and interesting, and this should lead to player conundrums and stakes and choice and risk and all that sort of thing, as they go about dwarfifying the space. There's the social side of the fort - the automator can reply to basic needs here, but you might still have to make decisions about limited resources. How do you resolve individual and subgroup disputes? (assuming here we are a little further along, as you said, the 'distant future', so that we have a richer selection of these, touching all of the aspects of dwarven society)
In our theoretical we-are-good-at-automating model, dealing with all of this could be automated as well, assuming the automator has player goals or default settings to make choices, but if the player likes some aspect of the game, they could engage with that aspect (e.g. change the default setting to their 'goal' on an ongoing basis, which is a fancy way of pressing a button I guess, ha ha.) Tying all this together, there will be threads running through the ongoing story of the world that the player can now engage with as they choose, and the theoretically-automated aspects they aren't interested in respond to their decisions to help them realize their story goals. Arguably, the story side is strengthened because the increased dwarven autonomy has increased their characterization a bit, especially if there's enough give in the automation for it to have personality links/etc., beyond responding to player input. The game already does this in its small way; dwarves do lots of things on their own already.
Player attention-wise, I think we'd be in good shape if we had all of this - at that point, if the player doesn't want to engage with any aspect of the game, it's probably not the game for them.
(reiterating that I don't think I'm going to attain this level of automation, but we do hope to improve the vanilla game, even a bit with e.g. labor, as mentioned, before the Premium release, and can consider looking at any aspect of the game that's broadly considered drudgery.)
Quote
Quote from: AriostoI'm wondering if there was ever a conceptual idea to establish some sort of volunteer based team whose aim was to track down and find solutions for the backlog of bugs that has built up over time. Now I realize that The Toady One doesn't necessarily need or want help, but I am seeing this from a less then direct angle. The plan would be for a group of volunteers who are familiar with at least parts of the game's code to try and pinpoint what is causing certain bugs, attempt to solve it, and then provide a report detailing what was changed and where in the code. Other volunteers, ideally the more experienced, would go over the report and try to determine if said solution is "safe" and would not cause errors elsewhere in the game, and should they feel confident in a solution they'd publish it. Toady himself could then choose whether or not to act on it, I definitely will not rule out cases where a found solution to a bug might cause problems in later versions and so may be found undesirable, but DF players would also have a choice to act on it.
Mind something like this could already exist in some form and I'm just not aware or failing to recognize them.Quote from: ror6axInspired by Ariosto's question - has an idea of test suite been raised?
What I mean here is external piece of code that runs some scenarios and compares if their output is as expected.
That would eliminate the need to extensively play-test all new versions of the game to validate every single action.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8245855#msg8245855
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8245912#msg8245912
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8245951#msg8245951
Ariosto: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8246520#msg8246520
Yeah, I'm very impressed and grateful for the volunteer efforts that have already taken place. It's certainly gone beyond what I thought possible without having the source. Naturally, people would spot more if they had the source. But that isn't the only consideration, of course. The process is certainly going to change with whatever happens after the Premium release, but it's too early to say how that'll play out until we see what that even means.
As far as I can tell, setting up unit testing etc. requires a person that maintains the unit tests. With just me, it's just another part that can break, if it's really comprehensive. I do a lot of tests, and it's never enough, as we all know, but I do catch a lot before it goes out the door. I'm just not sure that setting up more of a framework on my own would solve problems or create them, especially since I'm not a trained QA/dev tools person.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
Is "bogeymen" pronounced /b?.gi,m?n/ or /b?u.gi.m?n/?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8247369#msg8247369
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8247374#msg8247374
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8247379#msg8247379
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8247431#msg8247431
Ha ha, Zach and I say it almost like the u before the 'butter' alveolar tap, but not quite, like 'bug' all squished. No close back rounded vowel stuff like boooogieman, but if I were talking about "The Bogeyman" who is coming to get you, I'd say it more that way (though possibly spell it boogie or something.) But the DF creatures have almost their own pronunciation for us now, and mostly we sing a song 'bogeymen(x6) duh-nuh-nuh-nuh'. B'guhmin, stress on first bit, but last vowel is the only one that is hummable and survives.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
* In terms of baby mismanagement, would mothers in the military be programmed with better baby handling UI (putting them down for one), or are prospective parents (dads and mothers all) going to pick up any incidental babies on the battlefield and start using them as improv shields. (yeah that'll sort their stress-balance out all-right) like they roughhandle their own offspring.
* And how do you expect to handle some of the odder fringe cases of babies left behind from experiments or semi-intelligents (sieging and wild trolls comes to mind killed in the midst of combat) who don't really fit into the category of being socially presentable unless you have some weird hands-off goblin creche thing going on to encourage it.
The pick-up code has high priority, but the adoption code can be slightly lower, to avoid situations like that during disasters. Maybe it would be proper for all babies to be scooped up rapidly, but the distraction does seem like it might lead to a higher rate of loss in any military engagement where a baby is involved (um, yeah.) Although I don't recall if baby retrieval is higher than combat now or not.
Goblins integrate into the towns currently, as do escaped experiments, so I don't see why those babies wouldn't be adopted normally. It might be tricky if their parents are around - I don't recall, for the siege babies, whether the gobs/etc. pick them up? Or do the sieging parents just dump them and then e.g. run away? If their parents are alive but elsewhere, there might need to be an additional practical adoption measure. The parent detection code might also get confused if somebody is brought back to life, though the way things work now, I don't think there'd be a baby in those cases, maybe, since they are all w.g.? But it's still an issue.
Quote from: Nilsolm
Is there something like an official pronunciation guide for the languages in the game? I've always wondered how all those dwarven vowels are supposed to be pronounced.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8247827#msg8247827
Nilsolm (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8248032#msg8248032
Yeah, voliol is correct. We just had the ascii tiles to work with and didn't try to attach a particular sound to them for any of the languages yet.
Quote from: Uthimienure
Why can't we make wooden training maces & warhammers?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8248200#msg8248200
If I recollect, the reasoning at the time was that they take the edges off, which was a source of death/maiming in training. I don't remember if material weight/combat effects came before or after? Do mace dwarves spar with regular maces or do they not spar at all? Are there injuries with the real maces if so? In terms of real-world stuff, I'm not really aware of what distinctions were made or how much training weapons were ever used, for any weapon type. Just solving the bleeding problem at the time, but open for additions and changes.
Quote from: Sver
Does the new UI and/or tutorial promts for Premium DF imply there's going to be a makeover of some raw files, such as reaction raws? Or will the UI/tutorial simply interpret the old raws in a new way in that regard?
We don't have any plans to change how the existing raws work, at least beyond some bug-fixes we made to trees and so forth. However, there might be some additional text options added before the end, to fill tooltips and stuff like that. But mechanically, stuff like reactions will work they way they did before, whether we need some new text fields or not.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With the map rewrite, coupled with the Myth & Magic release, will there be a possibility of solid clouds that we can walk around on- that will float over the scenery beneath?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8249281#msg8249281
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8249318#msg8249318
Yeah, we're hoping to support that kind of thing. The verticality, the lack-of-caveins, and the procedural material aspect. And I suppose we always have to ask what happens if you whack it with a pick.
Quote
Quote from: HellrazorAre there any plans to add off-site (wildlife) hunting missions?Quote from: BromsAny plans to allow the creation/filling of a wagon and sending it to trade off-site?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8251979#msg8251979
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8252562#msg8252562
Yeah, PatrikLundell has this one - we're hoping to do more with this and have only gotten to do a little bit with the off-site system so far.
Quote from: clinodev
Currently on the Steam store page, you have listed as a requirement:QuoteGraphics: 1GB of VRAM: Intel HD 3000 GPU / AMD HD 5450 / Nvidia 9400 GT
which I'll note are all 10-12 year old.
Now that you have a lot of work into the new graphics, and your multilevel view and so on, does that still seem like a reasonable requirement for Premium, or is it likely to be revised up?
I suspect it's probably not far off, but they're old enough graphics solutions that it might have been the default text filled in on the store form or something. :D
(I've been asked about this a few times recently, which I take as a compliment for you and the artists.)
Ha ha ha, I don't recall writing those, but I vaguely remember the discussion, and I imagine what happened is, yeah, either autofill or that one of us just pasted some near-seeming requirements and it sort of creates a family tree of these between projects that gets outdated as it goes along, ha ha. I don't even know the names of any graphics cards these days. All of the art so far is 10MB in png format - I don't know how to check the exact compression without going into the code and summing it, which I'm not doing right now, but checking quickly from a few of the files, it ranges from 5-1 to 20-1. So we're maybe loading 100MB now, plus some more room for the procedural stuff. There are tens of thousands of 32x32x4 textures, but 10000 32x32x4 textures is only 40MB it turns out, ha ha. (modulo any storage buffering stuff that may be going on, extra padding is often added internally for speed as I recollect)
So if you're talking about the 1GB part (where maybe the OpenGL stuff used by SDL goes, but I'm not actually sure it ends up there or regular RAM), we're not close yet and with the amount of art remaining, I don't anticipate approaching that. If people add all sorts of graphical mods with zillions of creatures etc., we'll have to see what the strains end up being - at some point, some level of mods causes most games to have issues, at least in my limited experience playing with them.
Quote from: FrankVill
Today some modern roguelikes are starting to simplify the user interface. For example, Caves of Qud uses the Space key to perform any action on an element that is close to you, Cataclysm DDA uses Enter to concentrate, classify and order all the actions that your character could do at a given moment (they are still not easy to play for those who are not experts in this genre, ha ha).
In order to make Adventure Mode a little more newbie friendly to the Premium version, what do you have in mind about the user interface?
We're still months out from starting it, so we haven't decided on much there yet. I still have to refamiliarize myself with the mouse side of roguelikes to see what practices have developed (naturally the keyboard can still be involved here, though I'm not sure how the WASD is resolved when diagonal movement is so important.) We've had small odd half-versions of the things you describe, hidden in the ever-growing 'g' and 'h' lists, for example, and it would make sense to do something more surfaced and friendly with that, though a giant list doesn't seem fast to use or super-friendly - it does show all the possibilities at least.
Quote from: Beag
The recent interviews have made me wonder: in the myth and magic update will possible generated playable races include hybrids similar to centaurs? For example a human upper half and a tiger lower half?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8253931#msg8253931
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8253953#msg8253953
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8253955#msg8253955
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254021#msg8254021
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254026#msg8254026
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254084#msg8254084
Yeah, as the responses show, it's mostly a matter of timing and the Centaur Problem. There are various issues that need to be addressed, and it'll depend on the flow of the work the release in the arc at which I attempt to tackle it, more than it would for something like the map rewrite, or the myth generator, which go in first because they have to be in for the whole enterprise to function.
Quote from: NopeNope
I remember there was Talk of the possibility of creating a new game mode, the so-called 'deity mode', fleshed out from debugging tools. If I remember correctly the limiting factor was the fact that all a player-deity could do is curse random people and affect some rolls or something. Are you still optimistic on that front? Assuming divine overreach gets a revamping e.g. during the myth release, could deity mode be a possible byproduct, however rudimentary?
Right now when I want to search something and I make a typo or something and search something again, the forum tells me to wait 5 seconds, except I often estimate badly and wait for only 3 seconds or something, so I get the error message and have to wait 5 more seconds, and so on. Also, the 'display more relevant results' option is useless and should not be the default (it should be 'most recent results' instead). Could you please fix it?
During the 'finish the villains release' period, will player fortresses be able to weave nefarious plots of their own? I guess raids sort of count but I was more thinking of assassinations, hostage taking, and generally more complex endeavors involving handlers and sleepers on foreign sites, just like foreign entities do with your fortress.
Now that literally every single character in the world can mount stuff except for citizens in fortress mode, what are the remaining technical hurdles?
Could you explain the detailed mechanics of how insurrections and claims work? The wiki is really lacking.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254129#msg8254129
Yeah, deity mode still works, in some form or another. People don't do much just standing around - they don't bustle yet like they do in fort mode, so there's something reactive missing from it though as things currently are in the sites.
I assume the delay is in there for incidental bot reasons or something?
The 'c' screen ability to send people out, and the way the plots are stored, makes this mostly a matter of finishing the post w.g. implementations of these plots and then adding the interface for it. Mechanically it should work the same way, so it has been on the table, similar to the adv mode stuff.
I imagine for fort mode there'd be some irritations getting the two to be in the same place, but it's not much different from pets or animal jobs there. If fliers are involved, there could be additional issues.
Claims aren't really worth explaining, since they don't do anything. The information about insurrections isn't surfaced very well, and it's not really fleshed out against some of the stuff that came later. It polls all of the cultures at a given site randomly about once a day (if you aren't in dwarf mode, since it's a bit involved -- we've just turned them off for towns etc. while you are in dwarf mode, until they work better), and checks if they are happy with their rulers. Their baseline opinion right now requires them to have been conquered, or to have harsh laws in place (e.g. vampire rulers), or for the ruler to be cruel personality-wise (this was before we had anything like the religious purges to put that into practice.) Then it checks the size of the occupying force vs. the population and runs through all the rumors to see if there have been zoomed-in combats with the occupiers and how many have occupiers have died (this includes the adventurer, and unless something odd happens, it'll be the only source. Each conflict and death reduces the perceived % by 1. So in a large city with a small occupying force, one fight is enough.) Once one local culture feels ready to go, then all the cultures that feel that way will join an active insurrection (they'll generally flip the same way if they don't belong to the occupying group.) These are abstract events that run for just a few in-game hours, and they are resolved pretty abstractly based on the pop numbers (this was before any of the post w.g. group combat if I recollect.) That determines the outcome and possibly the removal of the occupiers. But it's all very mushy now, and to the extent it works at all it suffers especially in that you can't even see the active insurrection.
Post by: mightymushroom on March 01, 2021, 08:00:55 am
Quote from: Buttery_MessWith the map rewrite, coupled with the Myth & Magic release, will there be a possibility of solid clouds that we can walk around on- that will float over the scenery beneath?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8249281#msg8249281
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8249318#msg8249318
Yeah, we're hoping to support that kind of thing. The verticality, the lack-of-caveins, and the procedural material aspect. And I suppose we always have to ask what happens if you whack it with a pick.
Ohmigosh, I never thought about what happens if you whack it with a pick... :o
Floating castles built with blocks of clouds... airborne ships once moving pieces get implemented...
Stirke the Sky!
Post by: clinodev on March 01, 2021, 08:08:11 am
I will let folks know where to find your graphics card info here, and repeat my guess it'll still run just fine on cheap intel integrated graphics.
Post by: Uthimienure on March 01, 2021, 09:29:23 am
Quote from: UthimienureWhy can't we make wooden training maces & warhammers?If I recollect, the reasoning at the time was that they take the edges off, which was a source of death/maiming in training. I don't remember if material weight/combat effects came before or after? Do mace dwarves spar with regular maces or do they not spar at all? Are there injuries with the real maces if so? In terms of real-world stuff, I'm not really aware of what distinctions were made or how much training weapons were ever used, for any weapon type. Just solving the bleeding problem at the time, but open for additions and changes.
Sparring is very safe with any weapon, as far as I've observed. Looking back, I should have also given the reason why I asked my question, because we approached it from two completely different angles. I wasn't concerned with sparring, but rather if we hadn't yet found metal to make the real weapons, but still wanted to train dwarfs in those weapon skills.
In the meantime, I can try the [TRAINING] token in weapons.txt as suggested by FantasticDorf
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 01, 2021, 02:43:48 pm
In the meantime, I can try the [TRAINING] token in weapons.txt as suggested by FantasticDorf[/color]
It may be worth stepping in to clarify that [TRAINING] creates a wooden training duplicate rather than simply makes the weapon safe, so its likely not a rememdy to what you are after. Wood with the consistency of metal (lumbar pole log?) would be more realistic, just dont let any elves get any.
Quote from: Toady1 FotF reply
I imagine for fort mode there'd be some irritations getting the two to be in the same place, but it's not much different from pets or animal jobs there. If fliers are involved, there could be additional issues.
To clarify, NOT a question, just a post highlighted for Toady's potential interest
There has been some minor dfhack scripts that have been able to replicate mounted behavior, its as difficult a process as you can imagine by forcing both the rider & the mount by pure chance but it does work in a odd marriage of glueing a dwarf to the back of any animal. Though in action the rider skill can't activate so when idle, but when doing a job the animal will run at forced full speed like a citizen does to fufill a task, handling, carrying all sorts until the animal is exhausted.
It has some caveats but for a while it does enable flight though a job or combat path is normally land-bound and its more idling, and you force dismount by assigning to a pasture, which when the mount grabbed the rider disembarks ready to reset at the close-quarters mounting setup.
Suggestiony territory ahead
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: DogsRNice on March 01, 2021, 04:39:51 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 01, 2021, 04:49:45 pm
Will there ever be different reactions to certain events and things based on personality quirks? for example most dwarves are horrified by ghosts but some might be fascinated/excited by them and react accordingly or dwarves having phobias of things such as types of verminMaybe ghosts is the exception, but most events do give different reactions based on personality. It's more noticeable if you mod dwarves to have more extreme ranges of personality of course.
And dwarves have phobias, I think any vermin are possible sources, it's in their descriptions. Leads to their "friends" drawing pictures of them screaming while surrounded by spiders and so on...
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 02, 2021, 04:10:00 am
Will there ever be different reactions to certain events and things based on personality quirks? for example most dwarves are horrified by ghosts but some might be fascinated/excited by them and react accordingly or dwarves having phobias of things such as types of verminYes. Ever has already happened...
As Shonai_Dweller said, dwarves "absolutely detest" various things, leading to negative thoughts when confronting them. One dorf may absolutely detest vermin X, while another one like them because of their <insert fascinating aspect here>.
I believe there have been reports of extreme cases where events that are negative to the vast majority of dorfs is positive for a quirky individual.
A less extreme case is that dwarven baseline personality dislikes bad weather, but some like the outdoors and grumble only mildly at inclement weather.
So, the systems are there, but there's always room for expansion (once there's again time for something that's not strictly necessary).
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 02, 2021, 04:37:18 am
Will there ever be different reactions to certain events and things based on personality quirks? for example most dwarves are horrified by ghosts but some might be fascinated/excited by them and react accordingly or dwarves having phobias of things such as types of vermin
I believe there have been reports of extreme cases where events that are negative to the vast majority of dorfs is positive for a quirky individual.
A less extreme case is that dwarven baseline personality dislikes bad weather, but some like the outdoors and grumble only mildly at inclement weather.
So, the systems are there, but there's always room for expansion (once there's again time for something that's not strictly necessary).
In 47.05 for instance if you want a example the old tragedy system was brought back with outdoor effects included to help make things manageable so who knows what the future holds. Things from the angle of nightmares etc like the old walking necromancer army warnings or even abberative dreams dwarves are experiencing of their minds overclocking while they're asleep have only been "mostly" removed.
A famous example of this can be found amongst the Bravemule DF comic which you can find online, based on a much older game build which the mason has recurrant nightmares about horses and as such reflects it in their work producing masterwork statues to go around the settlement. This is a little more than a narrative given than the author, as the given reason in creating the artworks was deliberately as a result of said nightmares in the description of the statues made by their real in-game counterparts.
Phobias are still in effect, but it got significantly diluted I think. More often than not the only active phobias you will find from dwarves idling tend to be the grounder ones emitted by domestic farm animals which animals like geese helpfully scoop up for you and chow down to keep the area clean, or cats/hawks go out of their way to kill.
Statues and glass terrariums with some examples do conversely (not) help i think when made in the style of the subject. If you had to pass the gross terrarium full of hamsters scenic hallway checkpoint every day then enter the hamster- statue gallery slash(/) dining hall, it'd be a alientating experience but might make some interesting personality shifts.
Post by: Alu on March 02, 2021, 07:57:19 am
Quote from: UthimienureWhy can't we make wooden training maces & warhammers?If I recollect, the reasoning at the time was that they take the edges off, which was a source of death/maiming in training. I don't remember if material weight/combat effects came before or after? Do mace dwarves spar with regular maces or do they not spar at all? Are there injuries with the real maces if so? In terms of real-world stuff, I'm not really aware of what distinctions were made or how much training weapons were ever used, for any weapon type. Just solving the bleeding problem at the time, but open for additions and changes.
Sparring is very safe with any weapon, as far as I've observed. Looking back, I should have also given the reason why I asked my question, because we approached it from two completely different angles. I wasn't concerned with sparring, but rather if we hadn't yet found metal to make the real weapons, but still wanted to train dwarfs in those weapon skills.
In the meantime, I can try the [TRAINING] token in weapons.txt as suggested by FantasticDorf
Several questions sprung up to me out of this
1. Would feather tree wood be light enough to only bruise as a blunt weapon?
2. How is impact damage currently calculated for blunt weapons, especially in regards to armor penetration(which is quite high for blunt if I remember correctly)?
3. Have you considered having (higher tier?) tools made of more than one material, like a wooden axe handle + leather grip + metal head, possibly even customizable?
4. Is there a plan for varying wood value?
Where i'm going with this - if you combine density values with the Janka hardness test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test) chart, one could derive the durability(if needed) and impact damage of the final product.
If someone gets their hand on Featherwood, it should allow relatively safe blunt training weapons. I roughly calculated a Featherwood 83cm baseball bat to be about 115g. No idea if featherwood is soft or hard tough, still different if you're hit with a sponge bat or an aluminium bat of the same weight.
In case thats useful- I've found an extensive table of a doors-manufacturer listing species, type/color, density, texture and scarcity/value (https://www.forza-doors.com/performance-guides/general-guidance/timber-density-chart.aspx) if you're interested in making angering elves more profitable.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 02, 2021, 12:34:58 pm
:1. Yes. It's long been recommended to equip the hammerer with a feather wood crossbow to reduce the injuries caused by beatings.
1. Would feather tree wood be light enough to only bruise as a blunt weapon?
:
The wood properties were derived from various real world sources (not for fantasy wood, of course) and compiled into the current raws a fair number of years ago. If you want to check the raws out and compare them to your sources you can do so and post a Suggestion in the Suggestions sub forum listing the changes you'd like to see and the rationale for those changes.
Toady revisits suggestions from time to time, but anything posted in this thread will sink into oblivion, i.e. this thread will not be used as a source of suggestions.
Post by: ArrowheadArcher on March 02, 2021, 01:07:08 pm
Post by: FrankVill on March 02, 2021, 03:38:38 pm
I did not expect such an extensive and wonderful answer. It blows the imagination about the future.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 02, 2021, 05:54:41 pm
Given that some form(s) of magic essentially would be magical alchemy, it would seem reasonable that "real world" alchemy (a.k.a. chemistry) would make it into the game, although it remains to be seen when (I'd guess a fairly bare bones magical alchemy system would make it into the first Myth & Magic arc).
:
Is alchemy coming back?
Post by: DogsRNice on March 02, 2021, 10:26:00 pm
Will there ever be different reactions to certain events and things based on personality quirks? for example most dwarves are horrified by ghosts but some might be fascinated/excited by them and react accordingly or dwarves having phobias of things such as types of verminMaybe ghosts is the exception, but most events do give different reactions based on personality. It's more noticeable if you mod dwarves to have more extreme ranges of personality of course.
And dwarves have phobias, I think any vermin are possible sources, it's in their descriptions. Leads to their "friends" drawing pictures of them screaming while surrounded by spiders and so on...
probably should have mentioned the hateable stuff part in my post
i meant more of a fear like id definitely not make art of my phobias personally
Post by: Libertine Angel on March 03, 2021, 05:51:59 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2021, 06:19:13 pm
Will statues in the graphics release have a backup placeholder appearance, or does their content being shown visually mean the "statue of a ." bug will be getting more serious investigation prior to release?Lots of bugs will be looked at before Steam release. It's part of this arc's development plan. And if a statue relating to a farmer's guild doesn't display because of this bug, it'll likely be fixed sooner because it'll be discovered naturally when testing art/statues.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2021, 06:20:51 pm
Neither do dwarves. People who don't like them make fun of them by depicting them surrounded by their feared vermin type.Will there ever be different reactions to certain events and things based on personality quirks? for example most dwarves are horrified by ghosts but some might be fascinated/excited by them and react accordingly or dwarves having phobias of things such as types of verminMaybe ghosts is the exception, but most events do give different reactions based on personality. It's more noticeable if you mod dwarves to have more extreme ranges of personality of course.
And dwarves have phobias, I think any vermin are possible sources, it's in their descriptions. Leads to their "friends" drawing pictures of them screaming while surrounded by spiders and so on...
probably should have mentioned the hateable stuff part in my post
i meant more of a fear like id definitely not make art of my phobias personally
Post by: falcc on March 04, 2021, 10:32:54 am
1. How do pebbles as terrain work?
2. Is there a way planned to reduce boulders to pebbly terrain, or was that just speculating about what you would need to do if there was a realistic amount of stone?
3. Are there any plans to introduce throwing combat into fortress mode or would our military love throwing their clothes too much for it to be sustainable?
4. Is there any chance of brave civilians tossing pebbles at an invading force, or a hated noble?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 04, 2021, 11:48:17 am
You spoke a little about pebbles in the recent DF Talk.1. Currently it's essentially just a description.
1. How do pebbles as terrain work?
2. Is there a way planned to reduce boulders to pebbly terrain, or was that just speculating about what you would need to do if there was a realistic amount of stone?
3. Are there any plans to introduce throwing combat into fortress mode or would our military love throwing their clothes too much for it to be sustainable?
4. Is there any chance of brave civilians tossing pebbles at an invading force, or a hated noble?
2. There have been talk about partially dug out terrain, such that clay and sand deposits run out. When/if that's implemented you'd be able to do landscaping by moving soil a bucketful at a time (to e.g. prepare for farming on a rock floor, or level out the terrain). At a guess you'd get 999/1000 or something sand in a tile after taking a bag, while filling a mine cart with rocky debris would make a larger dent in a pile of broken rock (if that's implemented: might be too tedious).
3. I would be less worried about thrown clothing than thrown weapons (that are not intended to be thrown. Possible scenario: The marksdwarves empty their quivers of bolts, throw their crossbows, and THEN perform a suicide charge with their fists (in the second iteration. In the first one they'd start by throwing the crossbow)... Throwing items would require a new logic that let the dorfs evaluate whether the item they wield or otherwise have at hand would be any good for throwing, and then weigh throwing items against bashing the enemies with them, based on both whether there is a supply of additional suitable items, and whether they actually intend to enter melee or run away after throwing the items (and attacking from range and then run away would be a new behavior).
4. If I wanted to hurt someone I wouldn't throw a pebble or a fistful of pebbles, but a fist size or so stone. When it comes to invaders, throwing rocks would be a new combat behavior (essentially 3), while attacking hated public figures with the intent of actually causing an injury or just show disdain would require new logic for the dorfs to get them to have such a behavior in their repertoire (and probably some interesting [more or less lethal] food fights in the tavern while the parameters are tweaked).
Post by: Rekov on March 05, 2021, 03:13:46 pm
The graphical version opens a lot of possibilities up for DF, and I worry that the classical version might hold some of those back. Do you have thoughts about balancing potential new mechanics vs. backwards compatibility?
Post by: clinodev on March 09, 2021, 02:51:07 am
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?" --From /u/bbkilmister on reddit, excellent question!
Post by: Lysabild on March 09, 2021, 04:45:10 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 09, 2021, 05:15:45 am
Will the workshops get the same treatment as rooms now or later? So instead of putting down a 3x3 'forge' you put down an anvil and whatever else it wants, letting you customize rooms much more while building.Would be great to see, but I think that's a much bigger rewrite. I mean, a bedroom is a bedroom regardless of how you draw it. A 10x10 room which is now a designated "carpenter's zone" is a whole paradigm shift. Multiple workers, assistants, tools, what do you do with the space if you can designate a 5 z-level ultra-sized butchers workshop?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 09, 2021, 05:38:09 am
Yes, I agree that changing workshops into work zones is a fairly substantial change, and I doubt it would be possible to be done in a save compatible manner (at least with a reasonable effort). Changing rooms from being designated from a furniture to having that same furniture being placed in a zone still plays with the same components.Will the workshops get the same treatment as rooms now or later? So instead of putting down a 3x3 'forge' you put down an anvil and whatever else it wants, letting you customize rooms much more while building.Would be great to see, but I think that's a much bigger rewrite. I mean, a bedroom is a bedroom regardless of how you draw it. A 10x10 room which is now a designated "carpenter's zone" is a whole paradigm shift. Multiple workers, assistants, tools, what do you do with the space if you can designate a 5 z-level ultra-sized butchers workshop?
Changing a smithy from a building that requires an anvil to be built into a zone that requires one anvil per parallel anvil using job, plus additional tools, some of which are required for some tasks, and some for others reworks the not only the requirements for what you need for which jobs (which would have to be defined, probably requiring a rework of how reactions are defined and work), but also the order giving structure that probably shouldn't be a strict queue anymore, but you still want to be able to have some kind of control over what's done and in which order (there's no logical reason for the current loom to either host the job of collecting webs or processing webs, for instance: it's a consequence of how workshop orders are processed).
Post by: Schmaven on March 09, 2021, 06:17:41 am
Post by: Lysabild on March 09, 2021, 06:22:03 am
Would be great to see, but I think that's a much bigger rewrite. I mean, a bedroom is a bedroom regardless of how you draw it. A 10x10 room which is now a designated "carpenter's zone" is a whole paradigm shift. Multiple workers, assistants, tools, what do you do with the space if you can designate a 5 z-level ultra-sized butchers workshop?
Of course, but it'd also really tidy up the whole building menu and unify two otherwise kind of clashing ideas, so I thought I'd ask if it was in the cards for now or later, since the motivation for the change was motivated by new players ability to grabble with it.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 09, 2021, 06:34:52 am
It's in the cards for later. Has been mentioned a few times previously.Would be great to see, but I think that's a much bigger rewrite. I mean, a bedroom is a bedroom regardless of how you draw it. A 10x10 room which is now a designated "carpenter's zone" is a whole paradigm shift. Multiple workers, assistants, tools, what do you do with the space if you can designate a 5 z-level ultra-sized butchers workshop?
Of course, but it'd also really tidy up the whole building menu and unify two otherwise kind of clashing ideas, so I thought I'd ask if it was in the cards for now or later, since the motivation for the change was motivated by new players ability to grabble with it.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 09, 2021, 01:31:18 pm
Fingers crossed for stashing away stuff in bedrooms and armories, with less juggling of item ownership of having it loose in a pile or stack of bins.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 09, 2021, 03:05:11 pm
Chests and bags (I assume: I've never used them as constructed items) work for storing private items currently (and work horribly when shared between overlapping bedrooms and dorms [again assumed as I haven't even tried them there]), so storage of stuff there is not really a problem. Storage of squad equipment in barracks would be neat, especially if you don't have to disconnect the squads from the barracks when the militia is off duty to get them to engage in R&R (or civilian tasks) rather than individual training.
Post by: Immortal-D on March 09, 2021, 05:13:32 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 09, 2021, 06:36:54 pm
The tile set thread recently showed weapon rack and armor stand tiles, so it's rather unlikely they'll be removed. It certainly makes sense to fix these objects so they work as most everyone would expect, so it's probably more a matter of "when" than "if".
Chests and bags (I assume: I've never used them as constructed items) work for storing private items currently (and work horribly when shared between overlapping bedrooms and dorms [again assumed as I haven't even tried them there]), so storage of stuff there is not really a problem. Storage of squad equipment in barracks would be neat, especially if you don't have to disconnect the squads from the barracks when the militia is off duty to get them to engage in R&R (or civilian tasks) rather than individual training.
(Yeah bags work just fine, normally if i have a valid cloth & dye industry i replace most of my boxes with high value bags en-mass outright)
Im calling back to a time before they got bugged up and stopped working, but id still remain optimistic that the expansive use of personal rooms could help make things perhaps slightly better or just how they used to be purportedly working fine when the game was 2d and freshly becoming 3d. Little quirky things like ration & arrow storing in boxes for future use.
Much in a similar vein to my previous question: "Where would a dwarf who's made a particular attachment to a object or a preference (oft a slayer artifact with its own rules) want to store their objects out of duty?" i've had buggy arrow hoarders before, but with fluidform there could be a more expansive choice of objects for them to interact with.
I know for certain that with a bit of clever engineering and room design, i could least make personal bathroom basins (a grille over water) per dwarf-home with the new zoning tools easier for more complex room design shapes, not to mention also save a significant amount of space with in-room corner offices.
Regarding 'Bedroom Zones' in the March 8 update; Could this mechanic theoretically be applied to critters? Specifically, a 'Nest Box Zone' for the purpose of allowing underwater nest boxes to work, so we can finally breed the mythical Sea Serpent.
Nest boxes were never zones to start with so i dont initially think such a thing would be likely addressed and your question kind of rings out as a well meaning suggestion for it, zoos are though somewhat related to animals if you don't compound it strictly with a "statue garden" as "decorative" which umberellas museums and slab memorial halls currently for being variations of the same zone.
Any kind of desperately required change can probably happen through free-form pastures and animal training zones (if the animal laying in question is easily distracted being called for training) but clocking in better egglayers / expansive and attentive dwarf animal-caretakers would still be a nice touch. About aquatics it'd be nicer if it could all get swept up and fixed on the map re-write if water is made to be less pathing obtusive in which serpents would probably have 0 problem pathing to and using the nestbox, if you're going to bother to change some of the properties of water, you ought to properly address all large water habitats right?
- Thinking of it, would dwarves just come to a empty zone and observe any animals around if there were no cages/restraints to enforce looking at animals or would they be bored and shuffle off to look at a statue or something, it makes some interesting ideas for petting zoos or observation areas around pits and ponds if that's the case.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 10, 2021, 04:35:19 am
Regarding 'Bedroom Zones' in the March 8 update; Could this mechanic theoretically be applied to critters? Specifically, a 'Nest Box Zone' for the purpose of allowing underwater nest boxes to work, so we can finally breed the mythical Sea Serpent.You may, in fact, argue that the relationship between nest boxes and animal zones already is at the place where DF is heading, i.e. zones where you place appropriate furniture for use within it. The working of submerged nest boxes is a completely different issue that has nothing to do with zones as such.
Post by: Silverwing235 on March 11, 2021, 09:14:27 am
According to legends mode, kobolds may construct a market and a dungeon in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structures resembling such in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.
...which do you think it is? Thanks, anyway.
edit: formatting for extra clarity
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on March 11, 2021, 02:19:20 pm
Regarding kobolds and certain of their currently bizarre impulses - bizarre for a "context-based sublanguage",that is, to give a summary:I think it's an unfinished feature, rather than an error; the structures exist abstractly, but the game has no routines for generating them in kobold caves. In a similar vein, I have never been able to locate the taverns that supposedly reside in dark fortresses. A kobolds' library, now, would be incongruent, but think they might reasonably have markets or dungeons.
According to legends mode, kobolds may construct a market and a dungeon in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structures resembling such in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.
...which do you think it is? Thanks, anyway.
edit: formatting for extra clarity
Post by: xaritscin on March 13, 2021, 12:10:06 pm
-adding government types for civilizations instead of static feudal templates based on race. so we could have stuff like Dwarven Merchant Republics, Elven Theocracies, or Tribal Human civilizations.
-those government archetypes would have base mechanics but many of its rules could be procedurally generated, so for example, Civilization A could be your current fort's home civilization and they are a Theocracy ruled by a female and a set of arch bishops which are taken as consorts to the holy ruler, this is due to their god head being a deity with spheres of Fertility, Womanhood or stuff like that. while Civilization B is a Human Merchant Republic ruled by a group of barons, each one of different races because their culture has spheres regarding diversity and diplomacy or some stuff like that.
-Fortress mode not being limited to just Dwarven civilizations but instead being able to select from the current, living civilizations instead. (different race fortresses can be done with modding but i mean changing the fortress mode selection to make players able to create settlements different than a Fortress by basing the system on civilizations instead of race).
-Tribal races can form villages in the map, they are very basic sites with huts and other important buildings like worship circles or wells.
-Tribal civilizations can form in the world if a tribe or group of them occupies a territory of certain size
-Nomadic civilizations could exist with single static sites as trading/diplomatic/pilgrimae centers while the rest of the race moves around their territories. (could work like constantly marching armies or groups of traders)
-Tribal and Nomadic civilizations may raid or occupy other civilizations
-Faith, Wealth, Prestige, Holding Size, Culture, Government Type and Knowledge are now used to calculate diplomatic relations and the chance of certain events happening on fortress mode. so for example Fortress A has a huge library with a substantial amount of settlers writing and copying books from all over the world, this fortress doesnt do much outside of that so its wealth, faith and prestige may be below average but certain factions like Necromancers may be interested on raiding the site for knowledge, meanwhile Fortress B is built from a Merchant Republic and as such its citizens are very keen on making a profit so its a highly sought target from raiding based cultures both feudal, tribal or nomadic.
-Megabeast attacks could be out of this equation and instead be random happenings due to close proximity to their lairs (no more Titans crossing continent and a half to destroy your fort....)
-Evil civilization rulers may raid other civilizations based on their spheres. like raiding nearby Merchant Republics for wealth or nearby settlements from other civilizations for slaves
-Good biome civilizations may exist too, with the same kind of interactions as Evil ones based on their leader's cultural spheres. (perhaps a SPOILER related entity controls this civilization or they are usually led by a religious figure instead)
-Adventurers can form civilizations if they control a sizeable amount of sites. (would probably be like declaring the title and then retiring your adventurer, with that civilization appearing on the list when making a new fortress, or playing the main site directly)
-different types of Casus Belli may exist for limiting civilization attacks on each other. theocracies may declare holy wars to reclaim a site, nobles or rules may fabricate claims on nearby settlements. tribal/nomadic/evil civilizations may declare invasions and so on
-Economy focused civilizations may form trade routes on their territory and with other civilizations creating a path of wealth along the map. their capital settlements being the main nodes along the routes.
-Dead civilizations may be forgotten overtime, only their ruins and artifacts stating in the game but characters in the world wouldnt be able to trace their origin (they would basically be erased from the civilization records and legends after a while, their sites, historical figures and artifacts being marked as hailing from a "mysterious civilization" or something like that)
-sailing update could add merchant fleets, which move around wealth between trading ports
-Civilizations may create colonies on distant unexplored territories via sailing (once implemented).
-Colonies may have different ruling systems based on their parent civilization, unrest or lack of development may force them to rebel an declare independent civilizations.
there's a lot more but i think the list is getting too long. just wanted to get the most essential stuff in.
Post by: Silverwing235 on March 13, 2021, 12:33:14 pm
Do you think we could expand further on the government and site control mechanics? I know DF is more of a world simulation than a strategy game and that we already have stuff like holdings, tribute and occupying sites mechanics, but after playing Crusader Kings for a while it seems there's a lot of mechanics that could be implemented to further flesh out both Adventure and Fortress gameplay:
-adding government types for civilizations instead of static feudal templates based on race. so we could have stuff like Dwarven Merchant Republics, Elven Theocracies, or Tribal Human civilizations.
-those government archetypes would have base mechanics but many of its rules could be procedurally generated, so for example, Civilization A could be your current fort's home civilization and they are a Theocracy ruled by a female and a set of arch bishops which are taken as consorts to the holy ruler, this is due to their god head being a deity with spheres of Fertility, Womanhood or stuff like that. while Civilization B is a Human Merchant Republic ruled by a group of barons, each one of different races because their culture has spheres regarding diversity and diplomacy or some stuff like that.
-Fortress mode not being limited to just Dwarven civilizations but instead being able to select from the current, living civilizations instead. (different race fortresses can be done with modding but i mean changing the fortress mode selection to make players able to create settlements different than a Fortress by basing the system on civilizations instead of race).
-Tribal races can form villages in the map, they are very basic sites with huts and other important buildings like worship circles or wells.
-Tribal civilizations can form in the world if a tribe or group of them occupies a territory of certain size
-Nomadic civilizations could exist with single static sites as trading/diplomatic/pilgrimae centers while the rest of the race moves around their territories. (could work like constantly marching armies or groups of traders)
-Tribal and Nomadic civilizations may raid or occupy other civilizations
-Faith, Wealth, Prestige, Holding Size, Culture, Government Type and Knowledge are now used to calculate diplomatic relations and the chance of certain events happening on fortress mode. so for example Fortress A has a huge library with a substantial amount of settlers writing and copying books from all over the world, this fortress doesnt do much outside of that so its wealth, faith and prestige may be below average but certain factions like Necromancers may be interested on raiding the site for knowledge, meanwhile Fortress B is built from a Merchant Republic and as such its citizens are very keen on making a profit so its a highly sought target from raiding based cultures both feudal, tribal or nomadic.
-Megabeast attacks could be out of this equation and instead be random happenings due to close proximity to their lairs (no more Titans crossing continent and a half to destroy your fort....)
-Evil civilization rulers may raid other civilizations based on their spheres. like raiding nearby Merchant Republics for wealth or nearby settlements from other civilizations for slaves
-Good biome civilizations may exist too, with the same kind of interactions as Evil ones based on their leader's cultural spheres. (perhaps a SPOILER related entity controls this civilization or they are usually led by a religious figure instead)
-Adventurers can form civilizations if they control a sizeable amount of sites. (would probably be like declaring the title and then retiring your adventurer, with that civilization appearing on the list when making a new fortress, or playing the main site directly)
-different types of Casus Belli may exist for limiting civilization attacks on each other. theocracies may declare holy wars to reclaim a site, nobles or rules may fabricate claims on nearby settlements. tribal/nomadic/evil civilizations may declare invasions and so on
-Economy focused civilizations may form trade routes on their territory and with other civilizations creating a path of wealth along the map. their capital settlements being the main nodes along the routes.
-Dead civilizations may be forgotten overtime, only their ruins and artifacts stating in the game but characters in the world wouldnt be able to trace their origin (they would basically be erased from the civilization records and legends after a while, their sites, historical figures and artifacts being marked as hailing from a "mysterious civilization" or something like that)
-sailing update could add merchant fleets, which move around wealth between trading ports
-Civilizations may create colonies on distant unexplored territories via sailing (once implemented).
-Colonies may have different ruling systems based on their parent civilization, unrest or lack of development may force them to rebel an declare independent civilizations.
there's a lot more but i think the list is getting too long. just wanted to get the most essential stuff in.
Oh dear, pardon me, but this sounds like a bunch of... somethings that should be going here instead, i.e. suggestions: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0))
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 13, 2021, 01:58:01 pm
:As Silverwing235 said, these aren't really questions but rather suggestions.
-Fortress mode not being limited to just Dwarven civilizations but instead being able to select from the current, living civilizations instead. (different race fortresses can be done with modding but i mean changing the fortress mode selection to make players able to create settlements different than a Fortress by basing the system on civilizations instead of race).
-Tribal races can form villages in the map, they are very basic sites with huts and other important buildings like worship circles or wells.
-Tribal civilizations can form in the world if a tribe or group of them occupies a territory of certain size
-Nomadic civilizations could exist with single static sites as trading/diplomatic/pilgrimae centers while the rest of the race moves around their territories. (could work like constantly marching armies or groups of traders)
:
-Evil civilization rulers may raid other civilizations based on their spheres. like raiding nearby Merchant Republics for wealth or nearby settlements from other civilizations for slaves
-Good biome civilizations may exist too, with the same kind of interactions as Evil ones based on their leader's cultural spheres. (perhaps a SPOILER related entity controls this civilization or they are usually led by a religious figure instead)
:
-Civilizations may create colonies on distant unexplored territories via sailing (once implemented).
:
[/color]
- Fortress mode races: Myth & Magic will eventually allow for procedurally generated races (with a slider setting allowing for more or less the current situation). Part of that work will probably include the work needed to play any of the generated races. The problem currently is that you sort of can play other races by adding the proper token to the entity defaults raw file, but they essentially play like dwarves, typically with additional restrictions, but without the special features the race should have (such as enslaved trees forced to grow as their masters orders them to). There's a fair bit of work to make races actually playable with their own styles.
The fantasy slider will include a fully mundane one, which means there would only be humans in the world, and for that to work in Fortress Mode, humans have to be playable, so there's a definite starting requirement for that as a second race (although I'd expect Toady to go directly to make non dwarves playable, rather than just add humans).
- Tribal races are intended, but just hasn't materialized yet. The underground races are a sort of failed first attempt. Nomadic, static, and expanding are sort of expansions on that base.
- When civs get tied to spheres they should gradually get implemented to align more and more along the sphere lines, but I'd expect many worlds, probably most, to have civs that are only weakly tied to spheres (a fully non magic world would obviously not have any inherent sphere influence, but it's of course possible for civs to adhere more or less nominally to ideals, such as might, martial prowess, kindness etc.).
- Spheres will replace good/evil, although many spheres may be considered predominantly good or evil. This also means "good" and "evil" civs will become more complicated (although there will probably almost always be bad guys, as you usually want someone to serve as opponents).
- Once (air) ships are implemented using them to expand civs to other land masses should be a natural usage of the ability. There may be complications in implementing it, though, as you'd logically need a suitable location to sail from (i.e. a coastal or major river site). There may also be technical limitations, such as the inability to navigate far from land (it took humanity a lot of time to become able to not hug the coastline [maybe an opportunity to actually make use of some scientific progress in the game]), and you may also add sea monsters, divine mandates, and non cooperative spheres as obstacles that aren't present in the real world.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 13, 2021, 08:10:03 pm
Also, are you planning sound effects for Steam release too?
Post by: vlademir1 on March 14, 2021, 11:01:25 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 15, 2021, 03:35:31 am
With the zone style rooms, will we now be able to assign multiple individuals to a single room (as some other zone designations allow) or will it remain as it currently is with either just a single owner or else no particular owner?If you'd be able to explicitly assign multiple dorfs to the same room (the current system automatically assigns the spouse to the same room), there would need to be a warning about usage of storage furniture until such a time such furniture can either be shared or assigned to individuals (the latter being a worse alternative).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 15, 2021, 04:17:54 am
What actual in-game cases are people wanting to assign multiple people to a bedroom, besides enforced honeymoon suites (shouldn't be a vanilla thing in my opinion) of course, where a dormitory wouldn't suffice?With the zone style rooms, will we now be able to assign multiple individuals to a single room (as some other zone designations allow) or will it remain as it currently is with either just a single owner or else no particular owner?If you'd be able to explicitly assign multiple dorfs to the same room (the current system automatically assigns the spouse to the same room), there would need to be a warning about usage of storage furniture until such a time such furniture can either be shared or assigned to individuals (the latter being a worse alternative).
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 15, 2021, 08:41:22 am
Post by: kontako on March 18, 2021, 06:59:07 am
Do you intend the new room designating to trial the 'decentralised' workshop system you once spoke of, in which the function of a zone is determined by the tools/furnature present?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 18, 2021, 07:47:39 am
I'd be rather surprised if it happened before Myth & Magic, as reorganizing all workshops likely would be a substantial task.
Do you intend the new room designating to trial the 'decentralised' workshop system you once spoke of, in which the function of a zone is determined by the tools/furnature present?
Personally I'd find it backwards to first set up a neutered zone, guess what e.g. a blacksmith would need, make and place the furniture/tools guessed at, and then, possibly, finally be able to access info about what the rest of the equipment required is. It's really a messy information accessibility issue. Of course, you could make a neutered zone and that would give you access to info about what workshops you can turn it into, and then onto info about what the mandatory and optional equipment is for each particular workshop functionality, but it would still be awkward. Setting up a zone and then select that it should become a blacksmith and a brewery would allow you to provide status info for the functionalities to show you what you lack, including if the zone is too small for the minimum functionality of at least one workshop, as well as if it's too small for the full functionality of any of them (taking what's already in the zone into consideration). "Full functionality" would mean the ability to perform all tasks, as there's likely no reasonable upper limit to the number of parallel tasks of a particular kind a zone could support (just add more anvils to support the tasks that require access to anvils).
Work zones that won't be restricted by a strict job queue will also pose challenges to the job flow control. You don't want one type of job to monopolize the resources, e.g. because it's the least resource intensive, so it will always grab e.g. the anvil when it becomes available, while the other jobs that also require additional workshop resources have to wait for all of them to become available at the same time. You (or at least I) also want to have some control over what the workshop produces, rather than placing 5 jobs with the Manager only to find that the first two years get spent on producing left socks, moving to the right ones only when all the 100 left socks had been produced (and then back to left socks as those start to get worn [yes, I know socks are produced as pairs, so this is an exaggeration]). This as opposed to producing one set of clothing at a time.
Post by: alan8325 on March 18, 2021, 06:25:24 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 19, 2021, 03:18:45 am
Can we expect the undead and non-biological monsters (eg titans made of stone) after the Myth&Magic release to have greater complexity of their "mechanics" on par with living things? What I mean by this is living things currently have blood amounts, pain, fear, muscles, ligaments, guts etc. all effecting combat and abilities while animated dead and non-biological monsters have none of that and are relatively simplified mechanics-wise. I suppose after myth&magic there will be some kind of functional magic that stands in for functional blood and muscles, like "pulling 5% of the aura from the nearest piece of underworld slade" or whatever?Changing the non living (and non reanimated) monsters won't happen automatically as a result of Myth & Magic, but would require its own development task. With Myth & Magic the non living monsters can be explained away as being powered by a magic source inside them (node or whatever, that just dissipates when the critter is destroyed: later development might allow harvest of that whatever, but that's later development), while leaving their functionality unchanged (until the time to flesh out the system arrives).
Post by: alan8325 on March 19, 2021, 01:48:02 pm
I was under the impression that the Myth & Magic arc *is* to flesh out that kind of functionality. Though I suppose if the arc is slit up into multiple pushes, which Toady has said it will be, it makes sense to place that kind of work in the second or subsequent one while the first push is geared towards the generation of the spheres that explain the existence of the undead or whatever. Thanks for the reply.Can we expect the undead and non-biological monsters (eg titans made of stone) after the Myth&Magic release to have greater complexity of their "mechanics" on par with living things? What I mean by this is living things currently have blood amounts, pain, fear, muscles, ligaments, guts etc. all effecting combat and abilities while animated dead and non-biological monsters have none of that and are relatively simplified mechanics-wise. I suppose after myth&magic there will be some kind of functional magic that stands in for functional blood and muscles, like "pulling 5% of the aura from the nearest piece of underworld slade" or whatever?Changing the non living (and non reanimated) monsters won't happen automatically as a result of Myth & Magic, but would require its own development task. With Myth & Magic the non living monsters can be explained away as being powered by a magic source inside them (node or whatever, that just dissipates when the critter is destroyed: later development might allow harvest of that whatever, but that's later development), while leaving their functionality unchanged (until the time to flesh out the system arrives).
Post by: MrWiggles on March 19, 2021, 06:32:11 pm
Can we expect the undead and non-biological monsters (eg titans made of stone) after the Myth&Magic release to have greater complexity of their "mechanics" on par with living things? What I mean by this is living things currently have blood amounts, pain, fear, muscles, ligaments, guts etc. all effecting combat and abilities while animated dead and non-biological monsters have none of that and are relatively simplified mechanics-wise. I suppose after myth&magic there will be some kind of functional magic that stands in for functional blood and muscles, like "pulling 5% of the aura from the nearest piece of underworld slade" or whatever?Welcome to the forum! I hope you stick around!
So Toady-One doesnt really tend to answer questions outside of what he and his brother are currently working on. You'll often get, 'Sounds good.' and 'We'll see.'
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 20, 2021, 02:12:32 am
Related (kind-of) to flood-fill assigning of tombs, has something been added for regular coffins too? Enabling every one of those for burial (or, most likely forgetting to until miasma is filling up your tavern) is kind of annoying.
Flood-fill bedrooms - if we're setting a bunch of bedrooms for the tavern, will we still have to go back to set the location one at a time, or can this also be mass-selected?
Wouldn't it be nice if dorfs claimed a bedroom then went to fetch whatever furniture they need for it, bed, cabinet and whatever.
This last bit not in lime green of course. Just musing....
Post by: Buttery_Mess on March 20, 2021, 11:20:26 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 20, 2021, 11:40:18 am
The most serious problem is that your (at least mine) chronic bag shortage would be epidemic as all the bags get used as "chests" as soon as they're manufactured (unless seed storage gets to them first).
A heads up for Toady (not colored as it's a read once that doesn't require any answer): A potential problem with bedroom zones: If dorfs claim bedrooms based on the existence of free bedroom zones, you may get issues with dorfs sleeping on the floor rather than in free beds in the dorm when you've dug out space for bedrooms and prepared zones for them, but don't have enough beds yet (or they haven't been installed). Dorfs probably shouldn't claim bedrooms until they have beds in them, or at least not try to use them for sleeping until there's are beds in them if there are available dorm beds (the latter is better, as clothing can still be stored in a bed less room, but it might be a harder condition to code).
I'm not sure if it's been asked yet, but are we likely to see workshops zonified in the same way bedrooms and the like are? Will it require creating certain tools instead of making most workshops out of just one material? I'm thinking of the way forges and dye workshops are built, requiring an anvil or barrel.Yes, it's the direction Toady is heading in. However, probably won't happen before Myth & Magic. See my previous attempt to answer this a few posts up (kontako asked basically the same question).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 20, 2021, 06:41:37 pm
If dorfs were free to claim furniture....As an option I mean.
Also, re-reading the devblog, it seems like flood fill will be detecting the furniture and making rooms based on them (like the manual system now). So no sleeping in the floor. Maybe. Hmmm.
March 8th: "Furniture based rooms are not going to survive"
March 19th: "...it uses a flood routine from each potential piece of furniture"
So, which is it? Are bedrooms linked to beds now or not? Can we make a bedroom without a bed by just drawing a zone and calling it a bedroom? And can flood fill designate a hundred enclosed rooms as "bedrooms" if they don't contain beds? Or will that just not work?
Also does flood-fill automatically know what kind of room I want based on it's furniture? Or do we have to choose "bedroom--flood fill", then "office-flood-fill", etc. So if I have 10 bedrooms and a manager's office (with furniture) can I drag a zone and it'll know to make an office from the chair and bedrooms from the beds.
And if it is automatic, what if I have a room with a table, a chair and a statue, will it know this is a pleasant dining room or might it be confused and call it a statue garden or an office?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 21, 2021, 03:32:07 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 21, 2021, 04:06:25 am
A chair and a table can equally well be used as an office or a dining room, and both pieces of furniture would be required for the room to be functional in a real setting, so there is no way to automatically deduce what the room is intended for. You could, of course, add logic to try to set the room to the type matching the furniture in the center, but that's defeated both by rooms that have even tile dimensions (so there are 4 tiles equally close to the center) and by the practice I have (I may or may not be alone) of placing non masterwork furniture offset from the location I will eventually place masterwork replacements in. That way I can place the new furniture first and remove the inferior one afterwards, without interrupting the room's functionality.Yes, hence my question. Are furniture designated rooms gone (March 8th statement) or not (Implied in March 19th statement)?
Post by: kontako on March 23, 2021, 06:27:18 am
Tents already pop up in refugee camps, will the reworked sieges make use of them as well?
Likewise, will a sieging army make use of artillery as we know it, or will artillery be reworked?
I like to imagine sieging armies set up camps and patrols, raiding your surrounding settlements to coax you out, and for artillery fire to follow an arc, followed by area-of-effect/structure damage.
Unrelated to above, can all historical events which occur in world generation also occur in the world (whether on or off-screen) during fortress mode?
Post by: LordBaal on March 23, 2021, 06:38:24 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 23, 2021, 07:33:05 am
I wouldn't expect improved sieges to introduce improved siege weapons, as those are very strong candidates for rework during boats/movable equipment/traps work, and so would be scrapped and reworked at that time.
Tents already pop up in refugee camps, will the reworked sieges make use of them as well?
Likewise, will a sieging army make use of artillery as we know it, or will artillery be reworked?
I like to imagine sieging armies set up camps and patrols, raiding your surrounding settlements to coax you out, and for artillery fire to follow an arc, followed by area-of-effect/structure damage.
:
I don't see how attacks on holdings you can't really interact with (or defend) by auxiliary armies to the one besieging you would be affected by you breaking the siege (and while you're under siege you probably won't get any reports about it either, because of the siege blocking info from reaching the fortress). In order for such attacks to be meaningful for a fortress you'd need means to intercept such armies and send armies to defend settlements that you somehow got spy/scout reports about being targeted (although I don't see how you'd be able to get there before the enemy: your troops would probably just about be able to partially leave the embark during the time it takes the enemy to march from their staging point to the target).
Why would enemies that don't eat or sleep use camps, and what would patrols achieve? Patrols would have a purpose if the sieger doesn't know things instantly, i.e. if scouts/patrols would have to report the opening/closing of avenues of entries, defender patrols being sent out, etc. to their on scene command and it would then send orders back to react to what's reported. That would make the whole affair very sluggish.
Is the area rework contemplating or serving as a base for the planned workshop rework into areas?At the very least I'd expect it to serve as tests of some principles that may be of use. Lessons learned might then be applied both to workshops and the zones implemented now (and the ones existing in the current version).
Post by: kontako on March 23, 2021, 07:24:16 pm
I wouldn't expect improved sieges to introduce improved siege weapons, as those are very strong candidates for rework during boats/movable equipment/traps work, and so would be scrapped and reworked at that time.
I thought much the same, though I wasn't sure how else 'improved' sieges would work in the next release, other than invaders just digging through everything.
Why would enemies that don't eat or sleep use camps, and what would patrols achieve? Patrols would have a purpose if the sieger doesn't know things instantly, i.e. if scouts/patrols would have to report the opening/closing of avenues of entries, defender patrols being sent out, etc. to their on scene command and it would then send orders back to react to what's reported. That would make the whole affair very sluggish.
Currently they just stand out in the fields, for months at a time, braving the wind, rain and snow... It seems much stranger to me than forming camps.
Why? It serves as a fortified position to organise the siege, collect and store resources to construct siege weapons, and serves as a counter-objective for the player to attack with their own siege weapons and defences.
I like to imagine goblins shouting at eachother around a table prior to every assault, or the lone necromancer menacingly watching from afar on a throne in the only tent.
Sieges are supposed take a long time, in that case I don't see sluggish as bad.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on March 23, 2021, 10:22:47 pm
I wouldn't expect improved sieges to introduce improved siege weapons, as those are very strong candidates for rework during boats/movable equipment/traps work, and so would be scrapped and reworked at that time.
I thought much the same, though I wasn't sure how else 'improved' sieges would work in the next release, other than invaders just digging through everything.Why would enemies that don't eat or sleep use camps, and what would patrols achieve? Patrols would have a purpose if the sieger doesn't know things instantly, i.e. if scouts/patrols would have to report the opening/closing of avenues of entries, defender patrols being sent out, etc. to their on scene command and it would then send orders back to react to what's reported. That would make the whole affair very sluggish.
Currently they just stand out in the fields, for months at a time, braving the wind, rain and snow... It seems much stranger to me than forming camps.
Why? It serves as a fortified position to organise the siege, collect and store resources to construct siege weapons, and serves as a counter-objective for the player to attack with their own siege weapons and defences.
I like to imagine goblins shouting at eachother around a table prior to every assault, or the lone necromancer menacingly watching from afar on a throne in the only tent.
Sieges are supposed take a long time, in that case I don't see sluggish as bad.
The longest siege in history was the Siege of Ceuta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieges_of_Ceuta_(1694%E2%80%931727)) which lasted from 1694-1727. That’s 33 years!
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 24, 2021, 02:41:05 am
As it currently stands, I send attackers to one entrance until the traps are filled (or, if I'd used militia, the kill zone was sufficiently populated), block that entrance, and open another, while "processing" the first one. However, if observations had to be made and reported, the closing of the first entrance wouldn't stop enemies rushing for it until after a couple of days, and similarly, it would take additional time before scouts would report the second entrance being open and enemies starting to move towards it. It already takes a couple of days for enemies to cross the embark to attack from the other side, and adding additional time to that just makes things more boring, possibly to the point where I'd just take out a first wave to get some goblinite, but then just wait it out if it doesn't seem possible to wear them down before they give up and leave anyway (it's a bit tricky to try to juggle the current mega project while also dealing with a siege: the siege typically tends to demand the full attention both of me and of the dorfs [all hands on deck]).
Current siege weapons are essentially useless for trying to hit a random target on the embark, given the restrictions currently in place, so a camp wouldn't really make a viable target.
If you could control squads I could definitely see them being useful if the enemy was under a fog of war restriction so you could raid the enemy (that typically outnumber your forces significantly), but on the other hand it would be odd if you had a complete overview of the map and the enemy didn't.
I guess we'll see more about where Improved Sieges will head when Toady starts to work on it.
Post by: Toady One on March 27, 2021, 02:43:19 am
Post by: LordBaal on March 27, 2021, 07:48:20 am
Post by: squamous on March 27, 2021, 11:16:18 pm
Quote from: squamous3. A lot of demon stuff seems to be tied to the existence of procedurally generated demons (ie custom demons won't spawn unless they're enabled etc). Are there any tags or adv worldgen edits I could make to negate this?
3. For the spire-creating demons, looking at how it works, having UNIQUE_DEMON and CAN_LEARN/INTELLIGENT on them should put them in the candidate pool, without them needing to be procedural and even with the proc demons set to zero, but you can't turn off the spire process for generated/raw creatures with those tags (UNIQUE_DEMON is overloaded in that sense.) I may be misunderstanding the question. Do the custom spire demons not appear in world gen if proc demons are turned off (Bottom Layer needs to be turned on, since the spire connects)? Or do you mean after digging?
1. Should probably have clarified there, I did mean that I was having trouble making custom demons spawn in the world at all when setting procgen demons to 0 and thought it might just be some raw stuff I got wrong but I guess it might be a bug instead.
unrelatedly
2. What sort of activities will adventurers be able to do in the military update? I assume commanding armies, but how will that work? Will site leaders give us troops and tell us to go and attack a certain spot or something?
3. In the far future do you think it would be possible to have self-propelled siege engines, or mod them in? Like landships or something.
4. What does UNDEAD_CANDIDATE (the entity token) do? The wiki entry seems unsure.
5. What factors cause a dirt road to evolve into a higher-tier road in worldgen?
Post by: SheerSharkAttack on March 28, 2021, 09:23:27 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 28, 2021, 05:05:42 pm
when can we expect more procedurally generated culture like what we have for music, particularly art styles for images and patterns for decorations?Next big arc after Mythgen releases, "Starting Scenarios", is due to take on society, culture and politics in detail.
Doesn't mean something won't come up sooner, but that's the general timeline.
Post by: kontako on March 29, 2021, 06:42:10 am
Well, currently sieges last for one season or one year, unless broken before that (with some odd exceptions that are probably bugs).
As it currently stands, I send attackers to one entrance until the traps are filled (or, if I'd used militia, the kill zone was sufficiently populated), block that entrance, and open another, while "processing" the first one. However, if observations had to be made and reported, the closing of the first entrance wouldn't stop enemies rushing for it until after a couple of days, and similarly, it would take additional time before scouts would report the second entrance being open and enemies starting to move towards it. It already takes a couple of days for enemies to cross the embark to attack from the other side, and adding additional time to that just makes things more boring, possibly to the point where I'd just take out a first wave to get some goblinite, but then just wait it out if it doesn't seem possible to wear them down before they give up and leave anyway (it's a bit tricky to try to juggle the current mega project while also dealing with a siege: the siege typically tends to demand the full attention both of me and of the dorfs [all hands on deck]).
Current siege weapons are essentially useless for trying to hit a random target on the embark, given the restrictions currently in place, so a camp wouldn't really make a viable target.
If you could control squads I could definitely see them being useful if the enemy was under a fog of war restriction so you could raid the enemy (that typically outnumber your forces significantly), but on the other hand it would be odd if you had a complete overview of the map and the enemy didn't.
I guess we'll see more about where Improved Sieges will head when Toady starts to work on it.
Those are fair points about the limits of the timescale and line of sight. I imagine it could be avoided if sieging armies just assumed they'd need to prepare some sort of breach weapon, and attack and fallback in waves where necessary.
I reckoned that with the mention of some attention to sieges we may hear about some quick changes to current siege weapons (such as projectiles following a parabola through the z-axis, and causing area-of-effect damage on impact to enable breaches), and thought the camps offered a cool counter objective.
Now that I think about it, it might not be worth it for Toady to spend time there if he intends to address it again at a later date.
I did a brief search, though I may have missed it:
Has anything been revealed on how the manager page will be reworked?
Post by: Urist McSadist on March 31, 2021, 04:59:50 pm
Post by: Beag on March 31, 2021, 05:04:48 pm
Post by: Toady One on April 01, 2021, 08:28:49 pm
Quote from: DogsRNice
Will there ever be different reactions to certain events and things based on personality quirks? for example most dwarves are horrified by ghosts but some might be fascinated/excited by them and react accordingly or dwarves having phobias of things such as types of vermin
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254316#msg8254316
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254529#msg8254529
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254539#msg8254539
DogsRNice (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254869#msg8254869
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8255334#msg8255334
As people pointed out, there are many things in there already, through e.g. the needs (determined mostly by personality differences) which control several behaviors, and the emotional reactions. It isn't very satisfying though in lots of places, I agree. Stuff like getting out of jail has something like 20 different emotional reactions possible, both positive and negative, with more nuance beyond that, but it doesn't lead to specific action - which is of course a lot of extra implementation time. So it's just the kind of thing that'll slowly continue to grow.
Quote from: Alu
1. Would feather tree wood be light enough to only bruise as a blunt weapon?
2. How is impact damage currently calculated for blunt weapons, especially in regards to armor penetration(which is quite high for blunt if I remember correctly)?
3. Have you considered having (higher tier?) tools made of more than one material, like a wooden axe handle + leather grip + metal head, possibly even customizable?
4. Is there a plan for varying wood value?
1/3/4. PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254659#msg8254659
Don't have much to add here - we wanted to do multimaterial items certainly, but that adds a rewrite burden throughout the entire project (unless it's just decorations, which are more cosmetic and not ideal for doing actual mechanical changes), so it's tricky to get it started.
2. One of the big things is the deflection roll, which comes from the armor use skill and the craft quality, and the squareness of the strike. If deflect's really high it can change effective yield by two times when it decides how to compare it to the momentum. Overall though, the yield properties on the impact don't affect the momentum very much - it takes off some percentage of the lowest yield value, and that's all physics-free since we don't have nearly enough information about shape/etc. to figure out what would actually happen. Yield/deflect are essentially some form of "dam reduction" at that point.
Quote from: ArrowheadArcher
Will army formations be in the game? Will it be like or use dancing? Is alchemy coming back?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8254792#msg8254792
We'll probably see some form of army formations with the military stuff that comes after Steam but before myth/magic. That might not include local squad formations, or it may if it flops out of army formations. There's a lot of room/directions there and we won't get to everything. I don't know that local formations'll involve the 'activity event' code like dancing, but the way there are designated squares for each individual certainly seems like some part of the proper method.
As PatrikLundell replies, alchemy is all just a lump with magic stuff, in that sense. For the regular chem stuff, it just comes in with industries very very slowly. I'm not sure when/if we'll get to proper chemistry. There are lots of specifics, and it seems too difficult to hit a satisfying number of the combinations even with the crap we currently have lying around. When we did the knowledge bits for the libraries, we considered various stuff we could add, but I'm not personally qualified to handle the "what if you put quicklime and oil of vitriol together?" questions. Like, if it just makes particular salts as usual/etc., or something weird happens because of the exact elements/molecules (as I imagine is often the case), for all the possibilities and third compounds you can throw in there, and heat, and whatever else. That sort of thing. Ultimately I think that'd be fun through, especially with industry links etc.
Quote from: Libertine Angel
Will statues in the graphics release have a backup placeholder appearance, or does their content being shown visually mean the "statue of a ." bug will be getting more serious investigation prior to release?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8255331#msg8255331
I think it makes the issue a little worse, yeah. But they'll also have an appearance when it screws up (right now they do, but it's just an empty pedestal, which is appropriate enough.)
Quote from: falcc
1. How do pebbles as terrain work?
2. Is there a way planned to reduce boulders to pebbly terrain, or was that just speculating about what you would need to do if there was a realistic amount of stone?
3. Are there any plans to introduce throwing combat into fortress mode or would our military love throwing their clothes too much for it to be sustainable?
4. Is there any chance of brave civilians tossing pebbles at an invading force, or a hated noble?
1/2: PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8255708#msg8255708
3/4: I don't have any particular plans here. There are several better ways the civilians could react to certain situations, certainly, but I'm not sure it'll be worth the fuss any time soon. Having them throw stones from the ground which disappear afterward is a lot easier than managing a new set of military equipment anyway. The military equipment will have to get more versatile eventually, but I don't think I'll have to manage that for the military changes before magic, and it would be a lot of work.
Quote from: Rekov
Do you anticipate potential problems where a mechanic could be easily implemented and rendered in the graphical version of dwarf fortress, but would be difficult to convey in the classic version? An example of this might be narrow barriers that are placed and drawn on the borders between tiles, rather than in the tiles themselves. Partitions for rooms, or fences for pastures, etc.
The graphical version opens a lot of possibilities up for DF, and I worry that the classical version might hold some of those back. Do you have thoughts about balancing potential new mechanics vs. backwards compatibility?
Since we've been doing grid-based stuff for so long, I don't expect we'll be rushing off in these directions. There's so much to do that doesn't require fundamental changes.
On the other hand, there are certainly already conveniences that have cropped up, like being able to label stockpiles in the map area and so forth, that only happen currently in the graphical version, partially up above the stockpile tiles.
The classic version certainly stops us from doing certain things. I'm not sure what the border cases look like yet, or which cases are the most tempting. It is dangerous to get into territory where things are implemented one way in one version, and one way in another, say, when it comes to stuff like the fences you mentioned.
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Quote from: clinodevWith the new bedroom zones discussed in the March 8th DevLog, will we still be in a situation of having to draw hundreds of individual bedrooms? I can imagine a situation where the game knows to flood fill out from individual rooms defined by doors and walls, or perhaps beds, within the zone, treating them as individual bedrooms but vastly simplifying player layout.
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?" --From /u/bbkilmister on reddit, excellent question!Quote from: Shonai_DwellerMarch 8th: "Furniture based rooms are not going to survive"
March 19th: "...it uses a flood routine from each potential piece of furniture"
So, which is it? Are bedrooms linked to beds now or not? Can we make a bedroom without a bed by just drawing a zone and calling it a bedroom? And can flood fill designate a hundred enclosed rooms as "bedrooms" if they don't contain beds? Or will that just not work?
Also does flood-fill automatically know what kind of room I want based on it's furniture? Or do we have to choose "bedroom--flood fill", then "office-flood-fill", etc. So if I have 10 bedrooms and a manager's office (with furniture) can I drag a zone and it'll know to make an office from the chair and bedrooms from the beds.
And if it is automatic, what if I have a room with a table, a chair and a statue, will it know this is a pleasant dining room or might it be confused and call it a statue garden or an office?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8261443#msg8261443
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8261447#msg8261447
I guess we already handled the first question with the dev log that came later. You can create multiple rooms now.
Specifically, you can use both methods - you can paint an individual bedroom without a bed at all. However, when you are using the multizone tool (which is the default currently), the game needs to understand what you are doing. It uses beds to do that. Theoretically we could try to just detect any enclosed area and turn them all into bedrooms, but there are enough weird cases there, I think that using beds is just safer and covers the main case (and you have the individual painter for the rest.) It does not try to autodetect because there are too many ambiguous cases (especially between offices and dining halls), so you select your type first. "Bedroom", "Office", etc. If your zone type is one of the multizone compatible types (currently: bedroom, office, dining hall, tomb), you are in multizone mode, otherwise you start off painting. That's probably a bit confusing - we have some onscreen instructions at least.
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Quote from: LysabildWill the workshops get the same treatment as rooms now or later? So instead of putting down a 3x3 'forge' you put down an anvil and whatever else it wants, letting you customize rooms much more while building.Quote from: kontakoDo you intend the new room designating to trial the 'decentralised' workshop system you once spoke of, in which the function of a zone is determined by the tools/furnature present?Quote from: Buttery_MessI'm not sure if it's been asked yet, but are we likely to see workshops zonified in the same way bedrooms and the like are? Will it require creating certain tools instead of making most workshops out of just one material? I'm thinking of the way forges and dye workshops are built, requiring an anvil or barrel.Quote from: LordBaalIs the area rework contemplating or serving as a base for the planned workshop rework into areas?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8257609#msg8257609
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8257615#msg8257615
Lysabild (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8257622#msg8257622
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8257623#msg8257623
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8260522#msg8260522
PatrikLundell's replies go into several specific concerns with how it's implemented, but broadly speaking, getting the zones and activities/'ownership' of dwarves more sync'd up and less involved with particular furniture items was a step in that direction we were making, yeah. But it's not going to happen before the Steam release.
We're already running into those issues, incidentally, with the idea of 'zoo' 'sculpture garden' 'memorial hall' 'meeting hall', which all fit under meeting area now but get a small shoutout based on the furniture you have placed in the room. Whether you should be able to have specific activities or some way to more directly assert a type without worrying about furniture percentages is open. Right now it doesn't make a difference so it's just some extra wording.
Quote from: Schmaven
With the new way that rooms are designated, will it still be possible to have overlapping room designations - such as a shared office / dining room?
You can make two zones with the same shape - we had to remove multitype single zones for a variety of underlying code reasons, though we should still be able to overcome that and make single multifunctional living rooms for individuals, and other multiuse zones in the future as needed. We haven't reassessed sharing penalties yet, but having the whole thing happen under zones now should make that a little easier.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
With barracks and archery ranges being within the room zone changes (barracks not explicitly said), will the function of armor and weapon stands as a place for storage be planned to be somewhat salvaged or rebuilt from the ground up?
Fingers crossed for stashing away stuff in bedrooms and armories, with less juggling of item ownership of having it loose in a pile or stack of bins.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8257721#msg8257721
We have a decorative rack/stand setup as the default now. If the storage code can't be cleaned up, that's how it'll release as well. I'm not sure if we'll be able to tackle that or not.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Where would a dwarf who's made a particular attachment to a object or a preference (oft a slayer artifact with its own rules) want to store their objects out of duty?
I'm not sure where this is at currently. I presume you mean when they are out of uniform? I'm not actually sure if they just throw it in a stockpile or what. Haven't tried to handle rack/stand code yet.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Regarding 'Bedroom Zones' in the March 8 update; Could this mechanic theoretically be applied to critters? Specifically, a 'Nest Box Zone' for the purpose of allowing underwater nest boxes to work, so we can finally breed the mythical Sea Serpent.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8257788#msg8257788
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8257918#msg8257918
Yeah, have to agree with the reply that this isn't really zone related, since the aboveground ones don't use zones anyway. Is this like flier pathing not working right? I imagine the nest boxes get zeroed-out pathwise when you flood the area where you placed them (assume that's how you'd try to do it.) Those problems are all difficult to solve. But yeah, at least a zone would localize the problem so the CPU doesn't totally die. The animals would still need to get to the zone though. At least that's a little easier with water than something like a pillar w/ eyrie for fliers, but it's a similar pathing problem over long distances, where we don't have component information and so can't initiate the path without potentially flood-filling the entire map (except the part they want, if it's blocked off, which they can't tell in advance.)
Quote from: Silverwing235
Regarding kobolds and certain of their currently bizarre impulses - bizarre for a "context-based sublanguage",that is, to give a summary:
According to legends mode, kobolds may construct a market and a dungeon in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structures resembling such in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.
...which do you think it is? Thanks, anyway.
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8258379#msg8258379
Yeah, Urlance is correct there - we just haven't supported everything on the monster maps. I think the code cuts them off from libraries? I hope so... there's a further complication that the 'market' flag is overloaded now to signify important sites. I'm not sure what motivated them to build a dungeon though, ha ha.
Quote from: xaritscin
Do you think we could expand further on the government and site control mechanics? I know DF is more of a world simulation than a strategy game and that we already have stuff like holdings, tribute and occupying sites mechanics, but after playing Crusader Kings for a while it seems there's a lot of mechanics that could be implemented to further flesh out both Adventure and Fortress gameplay:
<various government ideas>
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8258972#msg8258972
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8258986#msg8258986
Yeah, I'm not able to reply to larger lists that belong over in the suggestions area, but generally, yeah, that's probably the main point of the release cycle after myth/magic, allowing alternative forms of societal organization. That won't get us everything of course, since some of your list items relied on e.g. the economy or boats working as well (and these come right after in the current release order - as far as we've laid them out it goes villains/military/steamcleanup -> myth/magic -> entity/law/etc. rewrite/embark setup -> then the boats and economic stuff in some order.)
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I'm impressed by how customisable the graphics are going to be. Are you thinking of trying something similar for the music? While vanilla may only have seasonal and maybe "siege" music, for modders being able to assign a unique soundtrack for each invading force/megabeast attack would be great.
Also, are you planning sound effects for Steam release too?
Yeah, it'll probably end up at least being a little more flexible that what vanilla actually provides media for. There are so many ways to cut it though I don't want to promise any particular direction yet.
We have 10 'stingers' prepared currently, for important events (megabeasts, siege, ambush, marriages, births, strange mood, artifact created, cavern found, endgame stuff.) That's pretty sparse and might be a little weird - our current plan is to test that out and see if there's some reasonable expansion that can/should be done for the first release in a consistent way we can manage and grow from. I'm not sure if that'll include any workshop/river/etc. ambience, etc.
Quote from: vlademir1
With the zone style rooms, will we now be able to assign multiple individuals to a single room (as some other zone designations allow) or will it remain as it currently is with either just a single owner or else no particular owner?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8259462#msg8259462
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8259467#msg8259467
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8259495#msg8259495
You mean other zone designation like pastures? The cage rooms also work that way, without being zones -- sadly, it's more a distinction of animals rather than the ownership code, so it isn't so easy to apply to the bedroom-style situations. Regarding the replies, hopefully the friendship etc. rates have increased somewhat with the patchup release earlier this year. That 'longterm acquaintance' issue really was blocking almost everything before it even had a chance. But there could certainly still be issues.
Quote from: alan8325
Can we expect the undead and non-biological monsters (eg titans made of stone) after the Myth&Magic release to have greater complexity of their "mechanics" on par with living things? What I mean by this is living things currently have blood amounts, pain, fear, muscles, ligaments, guts etc. all effecting combat and abilities while animated dead and non-biological monsters have none of that and are relatively simplified mechanics-wise. I suppose after myth&magic there will be some kind of functional magic that stands in for functional blood and muscles, like "pulling 5% of the aura from the nearest piece of underworld slade" or whatever?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8260765#msg8260765
alan8325 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8260903#msg8260903
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8260999#msg8260999
Looking at the replies, I mean, I definitely hope there'll be a little bit of something here even early on. Why things work the way they do, how they came about, what practical use they may have, side effects, how resilient they are when this or that happens, and whatever else; we want that for everything, and hopefully we'll get it for a few things on the first try. After a lot of work on tissues and things, our real world critters do have quite an advantage starting out, in terms of complexity, and that has the advantage of not requiring as much tutorialization/exposition. For magical systems, of course, part of the charm is not having to explain every little thing that the game might understand about them, without dedicated study etc., but it remains to be seen, as part of a game, how satisfying that really is. Like, if a golem is 'bleeding to death' because you've severed its connection to some cosmic energy force, it could either throw jargon at you or vaguely describe what's going on - both of these have their problems. You shouldn't know the jargon if you don't understand it in-character (and this is true of all the organ/ligament stuff as well), but a vague reaction is more prone to ambiguity/frustration. I lean toward the latter but it won't be easy to stick the landing I think.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Archery range updates sound excellent! Can these ranges be set over multiple z-levels, or was your wooden platform at the same level as the distant cliff targets?
Related (kind-of) to flood-fill assigning of tombs, has something been added for regular coffins too? Enabling every one of those for burial (or, most likely forgetting to until miasma is filling up your tavern) is kind of annoying.
Flood-fill bedrooms - if we're setting a bunch of bedrooms for the tavern, will we still have to go back to set the location one at a time, or can this also be mass-selected?
Always the same z level! Any fundamental change to the 'building' concept is going to have to wait until the map rewrite. When we roll around to squad orders reworks (prior the first steam release), we might end up with some stuff that lets your ranged dwarves be more effective over Z levels, however (without them bashing people with their crossbows when empty.)
I was considering adding a 'catacomb' style zone that works like a dormitory for the dead. Have to tweak coffin 'ownership' a bit to make it work. (I don't remember if it technically counts as catacombs if the bodies aren't in the open rather than enclosed in individual caskets. We'd still be using individual caskets here, just no doors.)
We haven't done the mass location setter yet, but right after you do the rectangle, it says something like "5 bedrooms created." And then you have the option to "Done" or "Undo". We were thinking of doing option setting abilities there to avoid the one-by-one problem. Haven't done it yet!
Quote from: kontako
Tents already pop up in refugee camps, will the reworked sieges make use of them as well?
Likewise, will a sieging army make use of artillery as we know it, or will artillery be reworked?
I like to imagine sieging armies set up camps and patrols, raiding your surrounding settlements to coax you out, and for artillery fire to follow an arc, followed by area-of-effect/structure damage.
Unrelated to above, can all historical events which occur in world generation also occur in the world (whether on or off-screen) during fortress mode?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8262204#msg8262204
kontako (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8262327#msg8262327
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8262357#msg8262357
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8262403#msg8262403
kontako (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8264393#msg8264393
Tents are such a strange outlier right now, just sort of slowly filling the world as armies and refugees camp, I'm not sure how that's going to be formalized. It would be cool if they camped out on the map. We did have a few ideas of them messing with in various ways that involved building rather than just digging.
But really changing siege weapons is a bit far, as explored in the replies there, with the larger change kind of looming. That doesn't mean they won't be touched though. Certain easy changes might be worth it, especially if they actually add to the challenge. If people are just lobbing rocks at a mountain it might not be worth it, although even that is potentially amusing.
It is too bad about the loaded area being so tight, and the strict boundary between loaded and unloaded unit combats -- one of the things also potentially addressed by the map rewrite since additional surface cameras aren't all that expensive if the pathfinding is kept to squad rather than work activities out on dynamically loaded perimeters. There will be a bit of tension here with the first military release in terms of stuff that's better served later, and stuff that works in two stages. Hopefully we can find two stage solutions for a lot of things that don't waste much time at all.
Regarding historical events, no not at all! The world activation pushes are related to this. We're missing most megabeast/troll stuff, lots of religious stuff, god/demon stuff (though we finally got some curses in), the villains stuff we delayed, all of the stuff relating to guilds/mercs that grew out of that as well, and there's the non-historical worldgen industries that also perform on a weekly schedule all through worldgen, and I'm sure a lot more besides. We're slowly trying to draw them into parity. Hopefully it isn't just getting worse. It's so much easier to add to w.g., of course. Part of the flexibility given by the map rewrite is to try to allow as prehistorical as possible events to happen, since we'll be getting more of that, and then hopefully we can continue to carry through. In the ideal world, our w.g. -> off-screen -> adv mode -> dwf mode process (within one release) would pan out, but in practice it's very hard; it might have worked with the villains stuff, but the steam stuff became unavoidable.
Quote from: squamous
What sort of activities will adventurers be able to do in the military update? I assume commanding armies, but how will that work? Will site leaders give us troops and tell us to go and attack a certain spot or something?
In the far future do you think it would be possible to have self-propelled siege engines, or mod them in? Like landships or something.
What does UNDEAD_CANDIDATE (the entity token) do? The wiki entry seems unsure.
What factors cause a dirt road to evolve into a higher-tier road in worldgen?
Ha ha, command'll have to work something like that, yeah. We don't have equipment laying around anywhere yet, so we'll either need that or we'll need to pop everything to travel mode to do any kind of actual mustering. The 'army improvements' section mentions one of the big things we were aiming at generally, which is having lines and multiple groups and so forth, in some fashion (our numbers are a bit small usually), and we'll have the companion/villain type command structures available to let you order subordinates and some subgroup of your army. It's not at all settled though. It's also hard to say where we're going to take the sieges of non-dwarven sites, since it has uncomfortable intersections with map changes we can't tackle fully yet.
Self-propelled engines: Moving fortress sections + boats kind of covers this yeah - siege towers, that sort of thing. Actually self-propulsion is a different matter, though our machines are so broken with perpeptual motion etc. that I'm sure it'll be doable.
UNDEAD_CANDIDATE: Let's see... 47.05 does nothing... 44.12 does nothing... 40.24 does nothing... 34.11 does nothing... so that's a pretty old tag, ha ha. My only guess is that it relates to those outdoor pyramids with the zombies on them (it's only on the human civ, which made me think of those, don't remember if those were gone by 34.11 though)? Maybe even the zombies that came after the wizard, where you had to send off a dwarf to avert the invasion, which wasn't even in a release as I recall? But yeah, nothing now!
Road evolution: looks like connecting 2+ cities of population 1000+ that are within a few market links of each other.
Quote from: SheerSharkAttack
when can we expect more procedurally generated culture like what we have for music, particularly art styles for images and patterns for decorations?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8264196#msg8264196
Yeah, Shonai_Dweller gave one of the first major places where something might slip in there. We aren't sure when we're doing anything more with the visual arts, from engraving to painting to architecture. On the other hand, sculptures and engravings have been somewhat procedural long before the music/poetry/dance existed, through the specific images, but we do need some broader structure like we have with the newer stuff.
Quote from: kontako
Has anything been revealed on how the manager page will be reworked?
Nope! It's coming sooner than it was before though, ha ha. All the labor stuff too, and whatever happens with workshop profiles. Those'll be done together I think, and aside from leaning toward more automated AI as a default, I'm not sure what we'll get. I need to finish up farms, the trade depot/trade, and the lever stuff first.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
In the magic update are there going to be procedural workshops or something similar, for doing magical stuff, like creating golems?
It's in the cards. New procedural industries and resources generally, and magical creatures. But as usual, we have no idea what's in and what's out for the first pass.
Quote from: Beag
Given the new graphical requirements for creatures due to the steam release do you foresee the myth and magic update taking slightly longer due to needing to be able to graphically represent large quantities of randomly generated creatures?
Not necessarily - so far, the artists have been able to work on things while I work on things. We have to organize, but there's also a lot of room for parallel effort. The better we organize, the more parallel it can be. I'm also new at this part, ha ha. So I'm sure I'll introduce some inefficiencies into the process. But it will be okay. And even before the myth/magic stuff, we have to tackle forgotten beasts/experiments/etc., so we'll have some practice.
Post by: clinodev on April 01, 2021, 09:48:38 pm
I'll go ahead and throw the one you missed about z-levels back in the mix:
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"
--From /u/bbkilmister on reddit, excellent question!
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 02, 2021, 02:30:16 am
Thanks as always for the answers!The question was answered, although that particular variation of the question wasn't quoted:
I'll go ahead and throw the one you missed about z-levels back in the mix:
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"
--From /u/bbkilmister on reddit, excellent question!
":
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Archery range updates sound excellent! Can these ranges be set over multiple z-levels, or was your wooden platform at the same level as the distant cliff targets?
Related (kind-of) to flood-fill assigning of tombs, has something been added for regular coffins too? Enabling every one of those for burial (or, most likely forgetting to until miasma is filling up your tavern) is kind of annoying.
Flood-fill bedrooms - if we're setting a bunch of bedrooms for the tavern, will we still have to go back to set the location one at a time, or can this also be mass-selected?
Always the same z level! Any fundamental change to the 'building' concept is going to have to wait until the map rewrite.
:
"
Post by: clinodev on April 02, 2021, 03:23:52 am
Thanks as always for the answers!The question was answered, although that particular variation of the question wasn't quoted:
I'll go ahead and throw the one you missed about z-levels back in the mix:
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"
--From /u/bbkilmister on reddit, excellent question!
[snip]
"
Always the same z level! Any fundamental change to the 'building' concept is going to have to wait until the map rewrite.
:
"
That makes sense, but while it's reasonably likely the answer will be the same, Shonai's question about z levels was specifically about archery ranges, a type of building with the very odd requirements to be same z-level and walkable to work, and we'd been told they no longer needed to be walkable. Bedrooms are neither buildings nor have those other requirements exactly.
The answer likewise referred directly to "the 'building' concept", so I'll hope against hope for another month. It wouldn't be terribly shocking to find bedrooms and other types of rooms becoming more like locations and allowing wholly disconnected areas, or just simple multi-z level selection so that even if dwarves won't look up at the 4 stories of engraved walls in the King's Great Hall, they'll at least appreciate its absolutely stunning value. :)
You're probably right about the eventual answer, though.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 02, 2021, 08:52:40 pm
Will it be possible to play the older versions of DF to be available to play on Steam and itch? I understand that remaking them on the same scale the current version is being updated, but making them available to play as they are available now on bay12?What do you hope to achieve playing in Steam that you can't do by just downloading and playing the games from Bay12?
Obviously the graphics, Workshop, the music and achievements won't work. It won't play in a "cloud" somewhere because saving the game won't work (as that's being changed for the Steam release), so it'll be identical to downloading and playing the game at the moment from Bay12 but downloading it from Steam instead. And likely costing Kitfox money to do so (not sure of the particulars of having Steam host free games)
A link to Bay12Games in the Steam game description would work just as well.
Post by: Mr Crabman on April 03, 2021, 10:37:22 am
Post by: clinodev on April 03, 2021, 08:03:10 pm
If you have an idea at this early stage, roughly speaking, how will the steam workshop handle mods and their compatibility/conflicts? That is, different mods making changes to the same raw files or objects?
I'm excited to see how this goes. Hopefully tilesets won't touch the raws anymore, at least. I know there have been a couple different mod merging projects to reconcile multiple mods, and mods with tilesets, but my impression is they've not solved the problem.
Post by: Mr Crabman on April 08, 2021, 02:15:29 am
If you have an idea at this early stage, roughly speaking, how will the steam workshop handle mods and their compatibility/conflicts? That is, different mods making changes to the same raw files or objects?
I'm excited to see how this goes. Hopefully tilesets won't touch the raws anymore, at least. I know there have been a couple different mod merging projects to reconcile multiple mods, and mods with tilesets, but my impression is they've not solved the problem.
Incidentally, I have another related question along these lines.
Are the graphics raws (ie `[OBJECT:GRAPHICS]`) likely to change much/be made obsolete (compared to now) when the Steam release comes out?
And in general I guess, what sort of changes can we expect to happen in the raw files for the Steam release (and also the accompanying Classic version update)?
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 08, 2021, 03:01:58 am
The Premium release will see a separation of tile sets from raws (to e.g. allow a Premium version player to share a save with a Classic version player regardless of whether the Premium player uses the Premium tile set unavailable to the Classic version). This means the raw information will be reorganized. Also, the new tile set functionality introduced by the Premium release will have to get raw representations, some of which may well replace some that exists now. Thus, migrating an existing tile set to work with the Premium release is probably a fair bit of work, mostly because the raw info has to be moved to fit into the decoupled organization (plus an optional amount of work to support the new functionality, if desired: you can spend more work than what Meph + Mayday does for the official Premium version tile set to support what's possible but they simply don't have time to support [now]).If you have an idea at this early stage, roughly speaking, how will the steam workshop handle mods and their compatibility/conflicts? That is, different mods making changes to the same raw files or objects?
I'm excited to see how this goes. Hopefully tilesets won't touch the raws anymore, at least. I know there have been a couple different mod merging projects to reconcile multiple mods, and mods with tilesets, but my impression is they've not solved the problem.
Incidentally, I have another related question along these lines.
Are the graphics raws (ie `[OBJECT:GRAPHICS]`) likely to change much/be made obsolete (compared to now) when the Steam release comes out?
:
Post by: clinodev on April 08, 2021, 04:29:21 am
If you have an idea at this early stage, roughly speaking, how will the steam workshop handle mods and their compatibility/conflicts? That is, different mods making changes to the same raw files or objects?
I'm excited to see how this goes. Hopefully tilesets won't touch the raws anymore, at least. I know there have been a couple different mod merging projects to reconcile multiple mods, and mods with tilesets, but my impression is they've not solved the problem.
Incidentally, I have another related question along these lines.
Are the graphics raws (ie `[OBJECT:GRAPHICS]`) likely to change much/be made obsolete (compared to now) when the Steam release comes out?
And in general I guess, what sort of changes can we expect to happen in the raw files for the Steam release (and also the accompanying Classic version update)?
In addition to PatrikLundell's excellent answer, Meph has opened a thread on how to prepare to make and convert Premium/Classic era tilesets you might be interested in. You may also get quicker answers there: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178199.0
Post by: Relative_Programming on April 09, 2021, 02:14:20 am
will there be smooth scrolling of the view of the current area in the Steam version?
Thanks for making such a great game :D
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 09, 2021, 03:30:05 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on April 09, 2021, 05:32:09 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The stocks and play/pause buttons are up in the top right, and most of the main options are along the bottom (in the left, middle, and right of the screen on the bottom), and when an option is selected, they bring up a box high up on the left; it's mostly okay in these pictures because the windows are smaller, but in larger windows/screens (like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5x_ZCo2B2k&list=PLAcQJt6sSXKBnycjCT2Hprq1bIgnM1vPp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5x_ZCo2B2k&list=PLAcQJt6sSXKBnycjCT2Hprq1bIgnM1vPp)) the buttons are proportionally much smaller and further apart, making for quite a distance for mouse travel between different options (and even different steps of the same options).
I know the keyboard shortcuts will still exist, but still.
Also, if on a higher elevation layer, can creatures below be seen on the terrain?
Post by: Inarius on April 17, 2021, 04:26:06 am
Post by: Uthimienure on April 17, 2021, 10:21:52 am
Will there be a way to change the positions and/or sizes of some UI elements (buttons, menus etc), either as an ingame option/setting, or via modding? I ask because in so far, I'm a bit worried about how far spread out various UI elements are: ...I second this question/worry, and truly hope we can play entirely without the mouse!
Happy birthday, Tarn!
Post by: squamous on April 17, 2021, 09:52:28 pm
2. Besides being able to create reanimated minions, what are the factors which influence an NPC to build a necromancer tower? I'm trying to create a situation where a creature spreads the necromancy syndrome via a werebeast bite, but the victims never seem to build towers. Is it a matter of having the syndrome alter their personalities so they want to build towers, or something more complex? I know the only people who get slabs in the first place desire immortality, so that might have something to do with it.
3. How will the steam modding workshop function after the steam release? Are there any plans to use it or will mods just remain on the normal uploading websites?
4. Are there any pre-Big Wait changes to the armor and weapon raws planned?
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 18, 2021, 02:25:48 am
:2: Villains can offer immortality as an incentive to work for them (both vampirism and necromancy), and presumably those who accept that offer also desire immortality. Thus, it's likely the immortality drive is a factor behind a desire to build towers (although I could make a case for e.g. knowledge seeking to be another driving factor if you'd acquired it through other means, such as reading a book with the secret).
2. Besides being able to create reanimated minions, what are the factors which influence an NPC to build a necromancer tower? I'm trying to create a situation where a creature spreads the necromancy syndrome via a werebeast bite, but the victims never seem to build towers. Is it a matter of having the syndrome alter their personalities so they want to build towers, or something more complex? I know the only people who get slabs in the first place desire immortality, so that might have something to do with it.
3. How will the steam modding workshop function after the steam release? Are there any plans to use it or will mods just remain on the normal uploading websites?
3: Steam Workshop support has been mentioned in the past, indicating it will be supported. It would be illogical to remove mods from Bay12 before the Classic version is abandoned (which isn't planned).
Post by: Spriggans on April 29, 2021, 07:47:18 am
I just watched the Spring update video, and it reminded me of this question I had for a while :
1. Will the graphical release have keyboard shortcuts ? Asking because it seems slower to use the mouse in certain situations...
2. Will the game have full keyboard-only support, or will you must use the mouse at some points ?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 29, 2021, 08:49:30 am
I'm not sure if it's been replied before. It is likely, but I'll take the chance.Previously the answer has been yes, the game will be controllable on the keyboard. Don't think anything's changed.
I just watched the Spring update video, and it reminded me of this question I had for a while :
1. Will the graphical release have keyboard shortcuts ? Asking because it seems slower to use the mouse in certain situations...
2. Will the game have full keyboard-only support, or will you must use the mouse at some points ?
Although some people seem to expect the old keybindings to remain. Don't think that's very likely. New interface, new keys to learn probably.
Post by: Mr Crabman on April 29, 2021, 08:49:48 am
I'm not sure if it's been replied before. It is likely, but I'll take the chance.
I just watched the Spring update video, and it reminded me of this question I had for a while :
1. Will the graphical release have keyboard shortcuts ? Asking because it seems slower to use the mouse in certain situations...
2. Will the game have full keyboard-only support, or will you must use the mouse at some points ?
Yes, keyboard-only will be supported:
Quote from: Suin every demonstration i've seen of the new guis, all the interactions have been made with the mouse. currently, i play with the mouse completely disabled via the init files - will the new graphical interfaces [which are looking very very pretty, by the way!] be usable with just my keyboard?
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8197475#msg8197475 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8197475#msg8197475)
Yeah, the situation remains unchanged from my reply to DG. The plan is to support a non-mouse approach. There are some complications to this, but it seems feasible given that DF has managed it (in whatever inglorious fashion) to this point. Seems likely we'll just need to support multiple interface setups now, for the numpadless WASD people, to the mouseless-by-choice. As we mentioned previously, the new look of the menus/etc. in Classic will need to be aligned with whatever's going on in Premium, since I can't maintain two entirely separate interfaces, but that can be made keyboard compatible. I still have all the old cursor code, etc., and that may just have to be something that's turned on in an option, especially for dragging out rectangles and so forth where it doesn't align with the new paradigm very well.
Post by: falcc on April 29, 2021, 11:04:01 am
Post by: Rose on April 29, 2021, 12:18:21 pm
Will universal beards for dwarves ever qualify as an INIT setting? If so, what category of work do you think it would fall under? It's not hard to mod in, but is it a tonal slider kind of thing? Something that's more suitable for the cultural updates when there's generated genders to go around? If it's never in the INIT is there any intention to direct Steam users who really expect one experience or the other from Dwarves to the file where you already tutorialize it?
Universal bears can already be very easily be modded in. The raw files are no more difficult to mod than the init file.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on April 29, 2021, 12:58:39 pm
Will universal beards for dwarves ever qualify as an INIT setting? If so, what category of work do you think it would fall under? It's not hard to mod in, but is it a tonal slider kind of thing? Something that's more suitable for the cultural updates when there's generated genders to go around? If it's never in the INIT is there any intention to direct Steam users who really expect one experience or the other from Dwarves to the file where you already tutorialize it?
Universal bears can already be very easily be modded in. The raw files are no more difficult to mod than the init file.
But, why would you want to replace the different types of bears in the game with a single type of “universal bear”?
I think it’s nice that the game has different types of bears. I mean, besides the size differences, there’s the fact that pandas have a different diet from other bears. That, at least, should be reason not to replace them with a single “universal” type.
Post by: clinodev on April 29, 2021, 04:18:50 pm
Will universal beards for dwarves ever qualify as an INIT setting? If so, what category of work do you think it would fall under? It's not hard to mod in, but is it a tonal slider kind of thing? Something that's more suitable for the cultural updates when there's generated genders to go around? If it's never in the INIT is there any intention to direct Steam users who really expect one experience or the other from Dwarves to the file where you already tutorialize it?
I'm not sure making this an init setting would make sense. Dwarf Fortress does not take place in the Third Age of Middle Earth, or the Forgotten Realms of D&D, (and female dwarves in D&D don't have beards anymore either anyway.) Female dwarves are beardless, elves are vicious, insulting cannibals, and so on. I think new players are unlikely to have any sort of universal expectations one way or another, really. One throwaway line in a film with no examples a cultural phenomenon does not make. Incidentally, even Tolkien probably meant this as a joke, it seems. His friend C. S. Lewis' (ultimately villainous) dwarves had sprung up from the stone fully formed, all male and bearded, which given some are described as the descendants of others, seemed a bit off to Tolkien. Converting it into a cultural misunderstanding was an amusing solution.
Unless and until Tarn and Zach start making changes to the stock setting, bearded female dwarves are a mod, of which there are certain to be dozens if not hundreds on the Steam Workshop for players to choose from.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 29, 2021, 05:16:12 pm
Many fans of specific fantasy worlds cry at the thought of a beardless female dwarf and will want to mod one in. Therefore Tarn gives instructions on how to do so (along with many other modding guidelines) in the dwarf raws.
Post by: voliol on April 30, 2021, 05:14:38 am
Post by: Bumber on April 30, 2021, 05:29:49 am
Female dwarves are beardless, elves are vicious, insulting cannibals, and so on.
I think beards for female dwarves exists commented-out in the raws, FWIW.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 30, 2021, 08:39:15 am
The dwarf raws are full of comments teaching how to mod a creature yes, including an example of adding beards for female dwarves if you want (since it's a popular mod).Female dwarves are beardless, elves are vicious, insulting cannibals, and so on.
I think beards for female dwarves exists commented-out in the raws, FWIW.
Post by: falcc on April 30, 2021, 11:28:12 am
A lot of trans folks I know who are looking forward to the more accessible UI. Toady has already always done a great job at making the game accessible thematically for us and the plans he's described for the future have always been more progressive than I've expected. So how difficult is it meant to be, in the long term, for a complete newbie to know how to change this? Unless you're on the Kitfox design team I'm not sure anyone but Tarn is really qualified to describe his feelings on the matter.
Post by: Mr Crabman on April 30, 2021, 03:03:28 pm
By this I mean, wagons are 3x3 at all times and cannot change their shape/footprint at all, only rotate (so they're "stiff"), and if they were 2x3 instead presumably they would still be able to rotate, but only still be 2x3 rectangles (ie they don't have limbs that can move separate from the body, and they are basically just boxes shape-wise).
So basically, would other creatures also be "stiff" and non-complex like wagons, and if not, do you expect this do be a problem for the premium version? As an example I can almost imagine a long snakelike creature that can move diagonally (because it's not stiff), but this would be quite disjointed looking in a tileset (though ultimately it would be a worth it even if it looks a bit strange).
2: Maybe a silly question and I expect the answer is yes, but would multi-tile creatures be viewed from the top down (like wagons in the Premium tileset) as opposed to a side profile (like the large creatures are currently)?
3: How big would be big enough to justify a creature being multi-tile?
4: I know smoothly moving creatures between tiles instead of blinking from tile to tile won't be happening on the release of Premium (from what you said before), but is it on the table for being added later at some point?
5: Has the situation with Linux support for the Steam version changed since last time you were asked?
6: When the siege update comes, will siegers have to have a supply line/eat food brought from the outside or with them?
7: Will the likes of clowns and other procedurally generated creatures have some of their generation logic exposed to the raws one day (eg, adding new body types/parts and abilities/interactions that can be had and the like)?
8: You've said you're considering Steam achievements for encouraging players to try new things they might not otherwise ("start a honey industry" for example), but what are your thoughts on achievements for challenges to undertake, like "live on an embark for X years without doing X", or events like "encounter your first X"?
9: To what extent will magic generation be controllable? You've mentioned for example having no deities, or having a slider for "how magical" a world is overall, but how far/specific would this control go? I guess this ties in to question 6 a bit as well.
10: Other than the "stingers" for announcements you mentioned elsewhere, how much new music will be in the Premium release?
Post by: Beag on April 30, 2021, 05:15:29 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 01, 2021, 09:04:14 am
Raws inserting init options is an interesting suggestion to put forward, especially as init files will be moved to become in-game settings (iirc). I'm sure some modders/players would appreciate little toggles/sliders for e.g. custom entity invasion caps. If it the Steam Workshop implementation turns out simple enough this might be overkill though.
Things like Mephs launcher in effectuality carries this out in a way that a steam-launcher may be able to understand because of the breadth of modding that is taking place, (not that I could understand it personally, it pulls on strings a lot in a way i think most modders without a background in ui or code couldnt replicate too well)
Some sort of middle territory for cool stuff like "Disasters On/Off" is already boolean to whether RAW is commented out or enabled on which entity is a singular example that the Masterwork Launcher uses to distinguish race count and variety parameters (given through the obscenely aggressive obstacle nonplayable only races you can load in for yourself as opponents), preloaded player civilizations (dwarf/kobold camp/orcfort/humanfort) and whether additional aesthetic buildings (meph torches) & ascii/graphicspacks are loaded. It could be the future for the modding scene but whether it'll be integral would have to be down to the considerations of Toady, but a lot of of it is already on the Worldgeneration Advanced settings for modifying the starting world with overarching probably should be init things like necromancers, whether villians can commit experiments and have lieutenants etc.
It might be down a similar road as the eventual city planning RAW rework on the distant horizon if we view immediate-term advances and progress with future goals. Asking big questions like in a high realism slider, can you acceptably just remove religion from the game along with all church buildings to be inoffensive (from a pragmatic sense) to persons sense (or lack of) of faith?
*^ above in my post isn't a question directed at toady, just a hypothetical statement.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 01, 2021, 09:09:39 am
Since you've mentioned there'd be more updates after the steam release but before the myth and magic arc is there any chance any of those updates could add ways for player adventurers to acquire combat magic similar to what sentient undead can use to help tide us over for the big wait?
Everything is moddable, there's already ways to turn yourself into supernatural entities or put yourself in the correct places to recieve the powerful combat abilities (reading custom spells, turning yourself into a class of creature who can access them, good old fashioned necromancy) you can twist the question into parameters wherein more of those supernatural elements are in the game (which really probably if Toady crossed the Rubicon would need to develop the slider, wg, or init controls to settle the "more magic bad" versus "more magic good crowd")
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2021, 04:40:28 pm
Quote from: /u/bbkilmister on reddit via clinodev
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265634#msg8265634
clinodev (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265645#msg8265645
Ha ha, sadly, no, I was talking about buildings generally that currently operate on one z level. The z-location variable is all over the place, so even rewriting, say, the bedrooms as locations still involves a lot of rewrites everywhere to get them to work.
Quote from: vcd14
Will it be possible to play the older versions of DF to be available to play on Steam and itch? I understand that remaking them on the same scale the current version is being updated, but making them available to play as they are available now on bay12?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265937#msg8265937
Yeah, I dunno - I don't think the hosting becomes an issue, since they'll be letting us host the new Classic version up there as a free branch, so having the old ones as playable selectable branches might be technically possible. But the support issues might be too much, since we shouldn't be doing support for them, and it's potentially confusing.
Quote
Quote from: Mr_CrabmanIf you have an idea at this early stage, roughly speaking, how will the steam workshop handle mods and their compatibility/conflicts? That is, different mods making changes to the same raw files or objects?
Are the graphics raws (ie `[OBJECT:GRAPHICS]`) likely to change much/be made obsolete (compared to now) when the Steam release comes out?
And in general I guess, what sort of changes can we expect to happen in the raw files for the Steam release (and also the accompanying Classic version update)?Quote from: squamous3. How will the steam modding workshop function after the steam release? Are there any plans to use it or will mods just remain on the normal uploading websites?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8266351#msg8266351
Mr_Crabman (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8267617#msg8267617
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8267625#msg8267625
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8267647#msg8267647
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8271032#msg8271032
I haven't redone the raw loading yet. I'm going to try to do at least something there with compatibility, and we're going to use steam workshop. I know that all can get complicated with load orders and all that, so it might just have to reject mods that try to create the same objects, although I might be able to check if the text is identical for a given loaded object and then just pass it over the second time and accept the rest of the mod. But I don't think I can meaningfully do anything like merges on a single object, since so much can break with that.
Yeah, we'll likely continue to have some information in Meph's thread about the format changes. The regular creature stuff still looks about the same, I think, there's just a ton of new stuff you can do.
There have been some other non-graphical raw changes, but it's really not something that comes up a lot in the Steam process. I fixed some bugs with the tree branching that became clearer when they were made graphical, for instance, and recently added colors for all the alcohol materials (since it's the actual verbal/object color, it goes in the raws and not the graphics.)
Quote
Quote from: Relative_Programmingwill there be smooth scrolling of the view of the current area in the Steam version?Quote from: Mr_Crabman4: I know smoothly moving creatures between tiles instead of blinking from tile to tile won't be happening on the release of Premium (from what you said before), but is it on the table for being added later at some point?
There are some technical difficulties with the custom engine here, so what's normally pretty trivial is a whole thing in our setup. I'm not sure where it'll land currently. I don't think I can switch engines before the first steam release - afterward it looks like we might have more resources for such an overhaul perhaps. But we could still get to smooth scrolling and smooth movement before then. They have related but different issues, so we could also get one and not the other.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
Will there be a way to change the positions and/or sizes of some UI elements (buttons, menus etc), either as an ingame option/setting, or via modding?
Uthimienure: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8270818#msg8270818
It wouldn't be too hard to set it up to load that way (all of the elements have single anchor points currently, and the interface reacts pretty well to changes in terms of adapting to changes as long as the overall composition doesn't change), but I'm a little worried that it won't like completely new placements, the way it defines relative to the boundaries of the working area at times (where the working area is either all of or just the center of the screen, mainly for ultrawide monitors.) Mods would have to be careful about overlaps. Additionally, there are equations on some of the screens to manage window resizes, where certain interface elements are moved or borders dropped to support smaller and smaller window sizes, within reason, and that sort of behavior is a little harder to put in a moddable format.
But it all seems sort of possible, and I don't think I've written myself into a corner badly.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
Also, if on a higher elevation layer, can creatures below be seen on the terrain?
We haven't done it yet, but it should be free when I code it in. Just left it on the to-do list way back then for whatever reason. Items/buildings/everything else too.
Quote from: squamous
1. What are the factors that cause bandit camps to spawn besides the banditry percentage token in the entity file? I've genned a world that's all mountains/tundra and no water at all, which seems to have prevented them from being constructed. I'm wondering if there's something I could tweak to alter this.
2. Besides being able to create reanimated minions, what are the factors which influence an NPC to build a necromancer tower? I'm trying to create a situation where a creature spreads the necromancy syndrome via a werebeast bite, but the victims never seem to build towers. Is it a matter of having the syndrome alter their personalities so they want to build towers, or something more complex? I know the only people who get slabs in the first place desire immortality, so that might have something to do with it.
4. Are there any pre-Big Wait changes to the armor and weapon raws planned?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8271032#msg8271032
1. The camps are created at the end of world gen from the wandering bandit groups that haven't built forts or found other places to to live. They pick a random walkable square in the region they are wandering in and it needs to be within 10 tiles of the site they are targeting. For the wandering group creation, they need the banditry percentage and a town with a population of 50 with a single cultural population of at least 12 to draw from. Then they require an inhabitated target site. It looks like it does force this to be a 'city' type currently (that is a human-style market town, though it doesn't need to be humans specifically if there are civs modded to have that site type). So maybe that's the issue? The tundra or mountain border should be fine themselves, but of course in vanilla that will stop cities from showing up. No idea why I have the city type requirement - it might have made sense a decade ago but is probably bad now.
2. Yeah, they require an animated zombie workforce to build it right now, so only animators will do it. They also need to be in a wandering group. These rarely come about from refugee groups or disbanded mercenary groups, but the main ways are through banditry or through the typical necromancer path. The necromancer path comes about from having the intrigue plot 'undead animator world conquest', ha ha ha... this plot should be given to any animator that has a dream of ruling the world. The necromancers get a huge boost to anxiety and distrust, which causes them to have that dream more often (this is sort of a hack, as I recollect, since there aren't a ton of other examples like this.) If the werebeast bite gives them the typical syndrome, they should be put in that category, but maybe something is slipping up - it does reevaluate the goals of everybody in worldgen that receives a 'change personality' effect. I'm not sure where else it might be screwing up.
4. We don't have specific plans for the more granular 'combat arc' style stuff, but expect that some things will happen there.
Quote from: Spriggans
1. Will the graphical release have keyboard shortcuts ? Asking because it seems slower to use the mouse in certain situations...
2. Will the game have full keyboard-only support, or will you must use the mouse at some points ?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274566#msg8274566
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274568#msg8274568
1/2. Yeah, that's the plan. But moving cursors around for designations, for instance, is unavoidably going to involve lots of presses. So if the mouse is at all usable for a given player, it'll often be the way to go.
Quote from: falcc
Will universal beards for dwarves ever qualify as an INIT setting? If so, what category of work do you think it would fall under? It's not hard to mod in, but is it a tonal slider kind of thing? Something that's more suitable for the cultural updates when there's generated genders to go around? If it's never in the INIT is there any intention to direct Steam users who really expect one experience or the other from Dwarves to the file where you already tutorialize it?
Rose: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274620#msg8274620
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274631#msg8274631
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274694#msg8274694
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274710#msg8274710
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274859#msg8274859
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274864#msg8274864
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274888#msg8274888
falcc (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274913#msg8274913
I imagine when we approach gender next time it's just going to be a much broader rethink, and I'm not sure the old tutorialization is going to be a thing anymore, but dwarf settings could very well look that way over in editor/mythgen specs. It's also harder to get at/think about the text raws for Steam players since they download the games but won't then select open file location and then read through the text files, so we likely won't be going that way when we get to universe gen/slider stuff, and have more UI-based options instead, along the lines of how we've talked about the myth/editor specs generally. I had wanted to get to a first overhaul before the myth/editor changes, since we were like "Yeah!" 25 months ago, but I'm still stuck over in Steam update land so who knows.
Over at Steam Workshop, where people are working on the txt files and putting stuff up for download, or over on the wiki, I expect we'll continue to see people working with txt files of course. And whatever gender options we get in the new format will have mods that spring up. Modding education generally is something we don't tend to focus on since people take it up on the forum and wiki way way beyond what we could do - the comments we made in the raws were helpful to get some people started, but especially once Steam hides the files by default it'll have to be somewhere else most likely. There's the forum and wiki, and Steam also hosts guides I think.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1: How do you expect multi tile creatures (when they become a thing in however many years) to work?
By this I mean, wagons are 3x3 at all times and cannot change their shape/footprint at all, only rotate (so they're "stiff"), and if they were 2x3 instead presumably they would still be able to rotate, but only still be 2x3 rectangles (ie they don't have limbs that can move separate from the body, and they are basically just boxes shape-wise).
So basically, would other creatures also be "stiff" and non-complex like wagons, and if not, do you expect this do be a problem for the premium version? As an example I can almost imagine a long snakelike creature that can move diagonally (because it's not stiff), but this would be quite disjointed looking in a tileset (though ultimately it would be a worth it even if it looks a bit strange).
2: Maybe a silly question and I expect the answer is yes, but would multi-tile creatures be viewed from the top down (like wagons in the Premium tileset) as opposed to a side profile (like the large creatures are currently)?
3: How big would be big enough to justify a creature being multi-tile?
5: Has the situation with Linux support for the Steam version changed since last time you were asked?
6: When the siege update comes, will siegers have to have a supply line/eat food brought from the outside or with them?
7: Will the likes of clowns and other procedurally generated creatures have some of their generation logic exposed to the raws one day (eg, adding new body types/parts and abilities/interactions that can be had and the like)?
8: You've said you're considering Steam achievements for encouraging players to try new things they might not otherwise ("start a honey industry" for example), but what are your thoughts on achievements for challenges to undertake, like "live on an embark for X years without doing X", or events like "encounter your first X"?
9: To what extent will magic generation be controllable? You've mentioned for example having no deities, or having a slider for "how magical" a world is overall, but how far/specific would this control go? I guess this ties in to question 6 a bit as well.
10: Other than the "stingers" for announcements you mentioned elsewhere, how much new music will be in the Premium release?
1: I've tried a few things back with ASCII, and none of it has been super satisfying. The boxes are relatively easy but sort of silly, and the stuff with articulated limbs starts to get way over into 3D modeling keyframe animation land and just feels ridiculous. Specifically on the tileset-diagonal issue, since our creatures can overgrow their individual tiles up to a 3x2 already, we can to some extent hide diagonal edge issues. Even the spheres sometimes used in tile games for snaky creatures look okay (kinda like Centipede.)
But in the new graphical environment, who knows! I haven't thought about it yet. The boxy approach of course doesn't look nearly as bad if you can just draw a giant whatever, though it doesn't add new mechanics like limbs do.
2: No reason why it would have to be top down, I think, though it is a bit ambiguous with the new oversized 3x2 (but single tile) creatures.
3: Technically any creature that gets out of the 2m by 2m cooould be multitile, but that would just be too much. And of course, using that measurement, once you get to the really big creatures, you pop up to 10 or more tile creatures really easily. So not easy to answer. Games without grids just have the advantage here.
5: The linux/mac situation is the same as ever.
6: Supply lines are important, but I imagine we won't be focusing on that side without the economy/resource tracking stuff to back it up.
7: That was eventually the plan, though it seems destined to be a mythgen/editor sort of thing.
8: Challenges seem reasonable, I think, though maybe it leads to a sort of sameiness of stories a little? Maybe that effect isn't so bad. Anything we come up with wouldn't compare to the challenges people eventually set for themselves, but maybe there's some set of challenges that would make sense.
9: The prototype lets you set some parameters by sphere (fire etc.), and I imagine it'll just continue to get more complicated.
10: We've got seasons and a death spiral song so far.
Quote from: Beag
Since you've mentioned there'd be more updates after the steam release but before the myth and magic arc is there any chance any of those updates could add ways for player adventurers to acquire combat magic similar to what sentient undead can use to help tide us over for the big wait?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8275178#msg8275178
Ha ha, similar tide-over additions have come up - it's really up to us to try to restrain ourselves as much as possible, and then when we fail to do so, hopefully the results will be fun.
Post by: clinodev on May 01, 2021, 05:45:05 pm
Quote from: /u/bbkilmister on reddit via clinodev"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265634#msg8265634
clinodev (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265645#msg8265645
Ha ha, sadly, no, I was talking about buildings generally that currently operate on one z level. The z-location variable is all over the place, so even rewriting, say, the bedrooms as locations still involves a lot of rewrites everywhere to get them to work.
Alas! This is one of the things I really hope to see in the "Underground Rewrite!"
Me: "Look up, Urist! Seven z level vaulted ceilings! Engravings all around the center dome! It's glorious, you clod, look up!"
(https://pixnio.com/free-images/2017/05/31/2017-05-31-16-20-36-900x600.jpg)
Urist: "I admired a fine seat recently."
Thanks as always for all the answers, and I hope your moving is going smoothly!
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 01, 2021, 06:58:02 pm
Quote from: /u/bbkilmister on reddit via clinodev"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265634#msg8265634
clinodev (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265645#msg8265645
Ha ha, sadly, no, I was talking about buildings generally that currently operate on one z level. The z-location variable is all over the place, so even rewriting, say, the bedrooms as locations still involves a lot of rewrites everywhere to get them to work.
Alas! This is one of the things I really hope to see in the "Underground Rewrite!"
I dont know whether im just unimaginitive but i thought the first thing a person would probably go to would be bunk-beds to save horizontal space but maybe that's just me. Some sort of ascending ramped barracks with 2 beds on each level for compactness in a continous room or stairs directly next to each sleeping area.
Post by: TranquilRiverGiant on May 02, 2021, 01:39:26 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 02, 2021, 02:32:49 am
I know that all can get complicated with load orders and all that, so it might just have to reject mods that try to create the same objects, although I might be able to check if the text is identical for a given loaded object and then just pass it over the second time and accept the rest of the mod.
What do you think of a "Minecraft resource pack"-like solution of having a menu where the player can define the load order of mods themselves, such that if a mod tries to create the same object as another mod, whatever mod is on the top of the load order would override the first version of the object? The same could go for mods trying to overwrite the same vanilla object (assuming merging objects can't be done).
Post by: Buttery_Mess on May 02, 2021, 06:02:41 pm
Quote
children will have menial tasks to perform and keep the fortress running smoothly, what does he mean by this? Children will help to do simple tasks, like hauling? Does this mean they'll have a limited labour menu? Now that you've taken a look at child labour, does that mean that they'll be able to, for instance, attend educational courses at guildhalls, or something, as well?
Post by: clinodev on May 02, 2021, 08:09:25 pm
ThreeToe says,Quotechildren will have menial tasks to perform and keep the fortress running smoothlywhat does he mean by this? Children will help to do simple tasks, like hauling? Does this mean they'll have a limited labour menu? Now that you've taken a look at child labour, does that mean that they'll be able to, for instance, attend educational courses at guildhalls, or something, as well?
Place a toy stockpile in one of your guildhalls and open it up to outsiders, and you may be pleasantly surprised at the results!
You might want to revise your color codes. Just add the color tag a second time before the comma after the ThreeToe quote.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 03, 2021, 02:57:24 am
Edit: After reading ThreeToe's post in the May'21 report (which is what Buttery_Mess actually quoted, but my addled brain interpreted as being by ToadyOne), it seems clear kids will work more than they currently do. Hauling is a menial task, and so ought to qualify (if the things aren't too heavy, but I doubt DF will go that deep into the simulation, and dorfs just haul slower when things are heavy anyway. All those seeds, though...). Cleaning is another task that kids could logically do (I don't know if they will, of course). Since kids harvest, they might be entrusted to sow as well (should be OK with the current system, but when agriculture is overhauled to actually be a challenge you may want to have skilled dorfs sow and tend to the plants).
Post by: Putnam on May 05, 2021, 05:51:35 am
I know that all can get complicated with load orders and all that, so it might just have to reject mods that try to create the same objects, although I might be able to check if the text is identical for a given loaded object and then just pass it over the second time and accept the rest of the mod.
What do you think of a "Minecraft resource pack"-like solution of having a menu where the player can define the load order of mods themselves, such that if a mod tries to create the same object as another mod, whatever mod is on the top of the load order would override the first version of the object? The same could go for mods trying to overwrite the same vanilla object (assuming merging objects can't be done).
Or Morrowind-like, yeah. A third-party tool like Wrye Bash to be run after everything that merges all the various mods' permitted reactions or whatever isn't ideal but would be doable if mods could be folder'd up at the bare minimum, and would go a long way.
Post by: leastannoyingman on May 11, 2021, 11:38:16 am
- With the myth/magic update, is there anything planned regarding evolution or corruption of different races and species (sentient and non-sentient)? This could include either initial mythical origins, "natural" evolution and mutations, hybrid species, or unnatural/magical forces and experiments.
A famous LotR example would be how a deity corrupted Elves in order to create Orcs, or how a spirit/wizard bred Orcs to create a new breed of Uruk-hai.
The lore in the Warcraft universe also has interesting examples - Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes all descend from Titan-forged creations made from stone and metal. However, these Titan-forged armies were afflicted by the Curse of Flesh, which was cast by the lovecraftian Old Gods who had previously been occupying the planet. Some of the now-fleshy Vrykul (Human ancestors) suddenly devolved further and shrunk from muscular 10ft+ to average human proportions, and those shrunken human babies were either exterminated or banished to another continent, where they started their own civilizations. Many of the banished Humans preserved some myths, deities, and names from their Vrykul ancestors and homeland.
Elves in Warcraft gradually evolved when their Troll ancestors settled near the Well of Eternity (the primal magic source which later exploded), which made them wise, graceful, immortal, and kickstarted the first advanced and magical civilization (which exploded along with the Well). There's also countless examples of "corrupted" races making trades with cosmic forces and entities for great powers (or to keep their previous powers), but gradually becoming addicted, vulnerable, or deformed.
This gets covered here and in many other Warcraft lore summaries on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmhO1LldIQw
What's interesting is when many of these earlier/later races and civilizations continue to persist in the world and encounter each another, or form new hybrids. Sadly, I could hardly imagine how complex such branching would be to plan and implement.
- Studying and accessing magic sources, or swearing allegiance to cosmic entities (or their servants) in order to magically summon/teleport creatures from other planes of existence would be badass. This includes either summoning actively in battle, or by constructing large structures/portals in order to summon/transport large amounts of such creatures, or even avatars of the cosmic entities. Of course, tapping into these forces would have huge costs or drawbacks, etc...
Post by: voliol on May 11, 2021, 01:12:19 pm
1. With the myth/magic update, is there anything planned regarding evolution or corruption of different races and species (sentient and non-sentient)? This could include either initial mythical origins, "natural" evolution and mutations, hybrid species, or unnatural/magical forces and experiments.
[...]
Yes. It's been mentioned a few times, and also shown in the demo versions of Myth generator. DF Talk #24 had a mention of it:
Quote from: Toady One
[...] [The abridged version of dwarven myth] doesn't cover kobolds at all, right. Unless dwarves were made from kobolds, which can happen.And if you open the spoiler below there's a myth demo screenshot showing goblins being cursed forms of dwarves (from this interview (https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortress-creator-on-how-hes-42-towards-simulating-existence/2/)).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Regarding corruptions, you could consider the current experiment night creatures (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Experiment) to be an early go at that.
Quote
2. Studying and accessing magic sources, or swearing allegiance to cosmic entities (or their servants) in order to magically summon/teleport creatures from other planes of existence would be badass. This includes either summoning actively in battle, or by constructing large structures/portals in order to summon/transport large amounts of such creatures, or even avatars of the cosmic entities. Of course, tapping into these forces would have huge costs or drawbacks, etc...
Absolutely, though there are always questions of which features are making it in first, and when. For more insight, I recommend reading some of Threetoe's stories (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_story.html), as the concepts that form DF are more or less shaped in them. Warriors of the Dead (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_warriors_dead.html) or Moclem (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_moclem.html) are probably the most relevant to your question about summons, though for a lengthier read involving most aspects of magic I can't help but recommend Cado's Magical Journey (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_journey.html).
And, finally, DF talk #24 (audio (https://www.bay12games.com/media/Dwarf_Fortress_Talk_24.mp3), transcript (https://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_24_transcript.html)) is an 1-hour podcast touching on most aspects of the upcoming DF myth generation.
Post by: leastannoyingman on May 11, 2021, 06:58:15 pm
loads of stuffThanks bro. The DF Talk about myth generation blew me away.
The sphere magic suggestion thread in your signature is also really cool, and should definitely be a part of the future system:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173189.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173189.0)
It made me think about another idea - customizably linking spheres to create new groupings. This would offer more control over primal forces and their respective deities, realms, worldly manifestations, creatures, schools of magic, religions, and their followers' motivations. Connecting these groupings to particular DF personality traits would also offer additional control.
Here's yet another Warcraft example overlaid on the DF spheres:
(https://i.imgur.com/48abfJt.jpg)
For example, If I want to group some spheres to match the Warcraft order of "Light", I'd connect Light, Fire, Healing, Justice, Valor, Courage, Duty, Discipline, Loyalty, Oaths, Charity, Generosity, etc. If I want a touch of zealotry, I could add Torture.
The opposing grouping of Shadow would include Darkness, Night, Nightmares, Trickery, Lies, Jealousy, Misery, Torture, Revenge, Theft, Lust, Depravity, Rumors, Thralldom, Caverns (and the Forgotten Beasts inside of them, presumably), etc. As the vast majority of spheres within the Light and Shadow groupings would oppose each other, so would the forces, deities, magics, and individual followers of the groupings. The individual followers would also oppose each other because their respective groupings' associated custom personality traits would also often clash.
It would make sense for these custom groupings/linkages to function on some additional level above the spheres, which would allow for overlap between different groupings - such as two custom groupings sharing the same sphere. Also, being able to select one or a few certain spheres as the absolute most important within the grouping - for example, with Light it could be: Light, Sacrifice, Justice, Valor. Same goes for one or a few key personality traits that followers would possess or aspire towards.
The followers of the Light grouping/deities would use fiery, light-based attacks and healing spells. They'd be associated with DF personality traits such as LAW, LOYALTY, FAIRNESS, SELF_CONTROL, SACRIFICE, PERSEVERANCE, HARMONY, TRUTH, Low CUNNING, and they'd worship and follow the spheres associated with Light.
The followers of the Shadow grouping/deities would use magical attacks based on darkness, madness, Forgotten Beasts, and abusing people's worst personality traits. They'd often have DF personality traits such as POWER, CUNNING, Low MERRIMENT, Low SACRIFICE, Low SELF_CONTROL, Low FAIRNESS, Low TRUTH, Low FAMILY, Low LOYALTY, Low FRIENDSHIP, and they'd worship and follow the spheres associated with Shadow.
What might potentially get confusing is if two opposing spheres are put under the same grouping. For example: a grouping that includes both Death and Healing, or both Revenge and Forgiveness. Would a user of both magics have them contradict each other, or would they complement and strengthen each other?
I could go on, but suffice it to say that such additional control would be incredible, and I think it would make a lot of sense for organizing sphere magic.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 15, 2021, 02:13:23 am
Post by: clinodev on May 15, 2021, 02:47:21 am
It looks like this has wandered off to Suggestions territory (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Toady answers questions here, but he's said many times that if you want him to remember an idea when it comes to putting something in the game, it needs to go in Suggestions.
Most of us are guilty of this from time to time, alas.
Post by: ror6ax on May 17, 2021, 10:01:34 am
Same question as above, but animated textures(tree leaves/grass/snow). Seems easy, would look great, mostly a job for artists - what gives?
You mentioned switching engines? Could you elaborate? Do you plan to switch to something like Unity eventually?
Post by: voliol on May 17, 2021, 11:19:05 am
Post by: TheFlame52 on May 17, 2021, 07:18:26 pm
In one of the most recent DF talks (either 27 or 28) it was also mentioned that dwarven cheese will get a little animation, so we are getting more if it with Premium.I don't think I want to eat animated cheese.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on May 17, 2021, 09:05:04 pm
In one of the most recent DF talks (either 27 or 28) it was also mentioned that dwarven cheese will get a little animation, so we are getting more if it with Premium.I don't think I want to eat animated cheese.
Why not? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_martzu)
Post by: DwarfStar on May 18, 2021, 11:17:10 am
In one of the most recent DF talks (either 27 or 28) it was also mentioned that dwarven cheese will get a little animation, so we are getting more if it with Premium.I don't think I want to eat animated cheese.
Is the new update going to feature cheddarmancers? I guess an animated cheese would automatically hate all lactose-free beings?
Post by: Nordlicht on May 19, 2021, 01:56:10 pm
In one of the most recent DF talks (either 27 or 28) it was also mentioned that dwarven cheese will get a little animation, so we are getting more if it with Premium.I don't think I want to eat animated cheese.
Why not? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_martzu)
Quote
Because the larvae in the cheese can launch themselves for distances up to 15 centimetres (6 in) when disturbed,[4][11] diners hold their hands above the sandwich to prevent the maggots from leaping.
Dwarven Cheese Artillery incoming
Imagine Maggots launching themselves out of someones mouth when they speak with you.
DF needs self-launching maggots now.
Post by: Mobbstar on May 20, 2021, 02:35:31 am
DF needs self-launching maggots now.
Cap Hopper: A tiny amphibian with a long prehensile tail.
Depending on your definition of maggot (there is no taxonomic definition) cap hoppers may be self-launching maggots. They sure like to jump all over my cavern-pasture stockpiles.
Anyways, back on topic: The Premium graphics currently show tiles from Z-levels below the current one (if no obstacles occlude them of course).
1) Will the Classic graphics also do this?
2) Will (clear) glass become transparent?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 20, 2021, 03:00:14 am
(I'd definitely say a maggot should be an invertebrate, and would say they shouldn't have any limbs either)
1. You can't really do that with characters, although since they're actually sprites it still ought to be possible to apply some kind of fading effect, but it would likely look rather odd (and would result in an abandonment of the current Classic character tiles in that it would break the restrictions on them, like the limited set of colors that can apply to the character and background independently; I'm not sure a wider color palette would be an issue [but ask current fans of the character tile set first]).
2. Unlikely, as that would mean a change to the mechanics.
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 20, 2021, 05:13:45 am
2) Will (clear) glass become transparent?From what I've seen with glass bridge previews shown by Meph, I'd say yes. This probably won't have a mechanical difference though, just visual.
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 20, 2021, 07:22:09 am
If that is so, then either the mechanics ought to follow suit or the rendering changed to match the implementation. It's not good when the visuals imply something that isn't actually working that way in the game. A real life bridge made out of glass would (if it wouldn't shatter) probably let a little light through, but smear it out completely so no shapes were seen. If nothing else, it would quickly be scratched.2) Will (clear) glass become transparent?From what I've seen with glass bridge previews shown by Meph, I'd say yes. This probably won't have a mechanical difference though, just visual.
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 20, 2021, 08:05:36 am
If that is so, then either the mechanics ought to follow suit or the rendering changed to match the implementation. It's not good when the visuals imply something that isn't actually working that way in the game. A real life bridge made out of glass would (if it wouldn't shatter) probably let a little light through, but smear it out completely so no shapes were seen. If nothing else, it would quickly be scratched.2) Will (clear) glass become transparent?From what I've seen with glass bridge previews shown by Meph, I'd say yes. This probably won't have a mechanical difference though, just visual.
I mean, it's not *very* transparent:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Immortal-D on May 20, 2021, 11:10:22 am
Post by: DwarfStar on May 22, 2021, 02:35:39 pm
On the Steam build; the preview of the Trade Depot & Wagons / Pack Animals was nice, but gave me the feeling of being too much detail that most players will overlook. For the sake of your own time and mental energy, has there been any instances where you decided that a certain feature (graphics or UI) would be nice, but ultimately not worth the effort?
The business of game development is, at its heart, a never ending series of prioritization decisions. I promise that for every idea that is implemented, there are a million and one ways that were considered that were deemed less optimal from an engineering time to fun ratio perspective. I would guess that driving their schedule is a list of user interfaces that sorely need to be renovated, and recently the trade depots' turn came up, and what we see is their best effort to modernize that tired old two-column text display.
If it does seem perhaps a bit fancier than we would have expected, that might mean we are starting to see the fruits of core engineering improvements, like displaying assortments of items. That code may be reusable for stockpiles or workshops, for instance.
Post by: squamous on May 22, 2021, 03:35:06 pm
I think it was mentioned at some point that vampires would be getting a look-over/improvement in the near future? Are there any particular ideas being considered and would they be moddable?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 22, 2021, 05:45:12 pm
Not for Steam Release, which is pretty much all that's going on for the "near future" (a year or so). Likely will see some general improvements (along with everyone else) in how they act as Villains is completed after Steam.
I think it was mentioned at some point that vampires would be getting a look-over/improvement in the near future? Are there any particular ideas being considered and would they be moddable?
Post by: voliol on May 23, 2021, 01:38:18 am
I think it was mentioned at some point that vampires would be getting a look-over/improvement in the near future? Are there any particular ideas being considered and would they be moddable?”Near future” improvements for vampires could mean either the villains or the myth&magic arc, both after the Premium release. It depends on when you’ve heard it. Myth&magic has been promised some modding support, though no one knows the full extent of it yet (of course).
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 23, 2021, 09:58:42 am
2. You've mentioned having dragons (and other megabeasts) be randomly generated not just in abilities, but also physical traits/appearance, but with constraints so they are still reasonably called "dragons"; do you have plans to set something up like this for the other, non-megabeast fantasy creatures as well, including dwarves and elves? That is, their appearance, physical traits and culture/default entities.
3. Speaking of entities, will entities be more varied (and random) in the future? It's slightly odd that all members of a species have the same cultural ethics and societal structure, except when they are subsumed into a civilization of another primary species.
4. At some point, will siegers/other creatures no longer have omniscience about which way to go into a fortress and actually potentially even wander into dead ends if someone say, builds a maze?
5. Will hydras eventually regrow destroyed/severed heads?
6. Will there eventually be more motivations for necromancy than obsession with one's own mortality? I'd imagine there are more reasons someone might seek to become a necromancer.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman7: Will the likes of clowns and other procedurally generated creatures have some of their generation logic exposed to the raws one day (eg, adding new body types/parts and abilities/interactions that can be had and the like)?7: That was eventually the plan, though it seems destined to be a mythgen/editor sort of thing.
7. Do you mean it used to be the plan to expose them to the raws, but they won't be anymore? Would this be more restrictive than the original plan? I'm afraid I'm not clearly understanding this response/what is meant by "mythgen/editor".
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 23, 2021, 11:38:31 am
:The "realism" slider concept demands that the sapient races are generated with ordinary world humans at the extreme mundane end and weird thingies at the other one, with "normal" fantasy races corresponding to the current one somewhere in between. Part of that would be to to generate their entities/traits/appearances with more variations at the entity level at the very least.
2. You've mentioned having dragons (and other megabeasts) be randomly generated not just in abilities, but also physical traits/appearance, but with constraints so they are still reasonably called "dragons"; do you have plans to set something up like this for the other, non-megabeast fantasy creatures as well, including dwarves and elves? That is, their appearance, physical traits and culture/default entities.
3. Speaking of entities, will entities be more varied (and random) in the future? It's slightly odd that all members of a species have the same cultural ethics and societal structure, except when they are subsumed into a civilization of another primary species.
:
I would also guess that since entities will be generated, there's no reason to generate multiple civilizations out of one "entity per race" sets when a generator can produce one entity per civ to introduce some variability even when multiple civs start from the same race. There may well be cases where myth/(pre)history results in a single entity splitting, resulting in two civs, but it wouldn't be an odd development if that caused a new entity to be generated out of the original one, or two (or more) new ones forming from the old one, leaving it behind.
6. Will there eventually be more motivations for necromancy than obsession with one's own mortality? I'd imagine there are more reasons someone might seek to become a necromancer.I don't think Dr Frankenstein was obsessed with his own mortality, so I think the answer to 6 is a clear "Yes", with a much less clear "When".
:
7. Do you mean it used to be the plan to expose them to the raws, but they won't be anymore? Would this be more restrictive than the original plan? I'm afraid I'm not clearly understanding this response/what is meant by "mythgen/editor".
My interpretation of that is that it was the plan to expose the raws, and that time has now been pushed to/through Myth&Magic. The current plan, as I interpret it, is to let Myth&Magic generate the raws, and those raws eventually should be possible to supply manually "from the side" into the editor side of mythgen. There's no guarantee the editor side will contain that functionality on the first Myth&Magic iteration, though.
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 23, 2021, 02:45:27 pm
My interpretation of that is that it was the plan to expose the raws, and that time has now been pushed to/through Myth&Magic. The current plan, as I interpret it, is to let Myth&Magic generate the raws, and those raws eventually should be possible to supply manually "from the side" into the editor side of mythgen. There's no guarantee the editor side will contain that functionality on the first Myth&Magic iteration, though.
Forgive me, but I'm not sure what you mean about the current plan. If Myth&Magic generates the raws, doesn't that mean those raws are an output, and not a thing that can be given as an input in an editor?
My original question was basically whether it would be possible to specify that one wants to let the "titan generator" use XYZ new modded body plans/parts, materials or interactions when it creates titans (and for other procgen creatures).
Post by: Schmaven on May 23, 2021, 04:20:05 pm
Forgive me, but I'm not sure what you mean about the current plan. If Myth&Magic generates the raws, doesn't that mean those raws are an output, and not a thing that can be given as an input in an editor
I had that same question; I could see it working that way if it were a 2-step process:
1) Raws are generated / adjusted based on sliders.
2) World is generated using raws as usual.
In that case, one would still be able to edit the raws before actual world gen starts.
Post by: Afghani84 on May 23, 2021, 04:37:08 pm
Post by: voliol on May 23, 2021, 05:02:36 pm
My interpretation of that is that it was the plan to expose the raws, and that time has now been pushed to/through Myth&Magic. The current plan, as I interpret it, is to let Myth&Magic generate the raws, and those raws eventually should be possible to supply manually "from the side" into the editor side of mythgen. There's no guarantee the editor side will contain that functionality on the first Myth&Magic iteration, though.
Forgive me, but I'm not sure what you mean about the current plan. If Myth&Magic generates the raws, doesn't that mean those raws are an output, and not a thing that can be given as an input in an editor?
My original question was basically whether it would be possible to specify that one wants to let the "titan generator" use XYZ new modded body plans/parts, materials or interactions when it creates titans (and for other procgen creatures).
In DF Talk #28 (http://www.bay12games.com/media/Dwarf_Fortress_Talk_28.mp3) they talk a bit about this, starting at 33:38, or more exactly about the modding/raws at 36:36.
Quote
Fikilili asks "You've mentioned that you're thinking of implementing a dragon randomizer in the game, that would generate different types of dragons, and I wondered how it would work. [etc.]"
The short answer to your question is yes. The talk gives a little lengthier answer taking dragons as an example, but segues into one about Pokémon breeding and Ultima Online chicken fights after a while. I doubt the details have been worked out yet.
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 24, 2021, 03:21:59 am
The short answer to your question is yes. The talk gives a little lengthier answer taking dragons as an example, but segues into one about Pokémon breeding and Ultima Online chicken fights after a while. I doubt the details have been worked out yet.
Ah, that's good to hear.
---
1. Will the map rewrite bring us liquid tiles other than water and magma? Rivers of blood would fit right into some more evil biomes, and a moat of honey would be interesting (exhausting siegers with the sheer viscosity of it).
2. Will the map rewrite also be where water no longer freezes instantly?
3. At some point will tiles other than water be affected by temperature? For example, dragonfire being able to actually melt stone walls, or constructions (and other terrain tiles) being able to catch fire and burn when appropriate in contact with magma or fire (ie no more wooden walls to block off magma).
4. Will shields eventually no longer be immune to dragonfire when blocking it? (and presumably other attacks that the material shouldn't be able to withstand).
5. Will werebeasts/other transformations always regenerate the body fully on transforming? There's something to be said thematically about wounds carrying over between forms (I presume this is a technical challenge, especially where body parts don't match up 1-1).
6a. What are your thoughts/ideas about magic related to fate/prophecy/destiny both in worldgen and in play? As in, its technical feasibility and how it could work.
6b. Same question as 6a, but for magic relating to time travel/manipulation? Like stopping time or slowing it down (which I guess is the same as speeding the user up sufficiently technically), or slowing down/freezing the time of specific objects or creatures, and traveling to the future and the past?
7. This might end up being related to the previous 2 questions funny enough, but are there any kinds of magic that you would have liked to have eventually, but which you consider just too impossible/impractical computationally to ever do?
-----
8:
I've got a long question here (well, more a short question, and a lot of explaining what I am asking about); how does the magic generation work/how does it apply constraints at different levels?
By this I mean, some magic may have certain costs, or certain effects it can have, and ways to be learned, sources it can be accessed from, methods by which it can be cast, ranges it can affect, whether it persists or requires constant maintenance, and all kinds of other limitation/ability/way it works.
But some aspects/constraints in a given magic system often can vary between individuals, or bloodlines, or species, or sources (gods, natural forces etc), and other aspects within those same groupings may remain the same, as constant rules and/or themes (and these aspects can naturally "nest" as you go deeper), and these constraints all help to give the magic system a unique "flavor", as well as cement it around some consistent themes.
For example:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So my question is, how is it planned to work for DF, roughly speaking? What's the system whereby constraints are imposed during worldgen (other than spheres), sometimes at different stages/steps, and how would it decide what scopes to place the constraints at? To be clear, I'm not talking about a myth&magic editor, or even modding or advanced configuration here (because clearly you could force certain constraints manually this way), but the vanilla generator, with configuration being limited to the basic worldgen screen and whatever simple options that has.
I ask because from what I've seen with the mythgen stuff talked about elsewhere, it feels like the only global constraints any world would have, would be magical spheres, and other than that, a lot of it looks just random for each interaction with a given species by a given god/primordial creative force, which seems like it would end up with a bit of a kitchen sink of magic in every single world, rather than allowing it to be possible all magic center among some limited themes/restrictions like most magic systems (themes other than spheres of the actual spells being cast that is); I am probably mistaken though, which is why I ask.
Post by: Silverwing235 on May 24, 2021, 04:38:16 am
Are there any plans to revisit the issues with military equipment for the steam release, e.g. woodcutters and miners not being able to use their work tools as weapons? Any other changes planned regarding squads and military interactions?(fixing colour mistake, ignore)
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 24, 2021, 05:02:24 am
Yes, the mythgen process would generate raws that thus would be output from the process. However, at some point (possible the first iteration) those raws would become "actual" raws, i.e. files containing the descriptions for how to generate the creatures. When the editor support gets implemented it would probably allow you to define bounds within which it would be allowed to generate creatures (e.g. only humanoid body plans, etc.), as well as the actual raw templates.
The short answer to your question is yes. The talk gives a little lengthier answer taking dragons as an example, but segues into one about Pokémon breeding and Ultima Online chicken fights after a while. I doubt the details have been worked out yet.
Ah, that's good to hear.
---
1. Will the map rewrite bring us liquid tiles other than water and magma? Rivers of blood would fit right into some more evil biomes, and a moat of honey would be interesting (exhausting siegers with the sheer viscosity of it).
2. Will the map rewrite also be where water no longer freezes instantly?
3. At some point will tiles other than water be affected by temperature? For example, dragonfire being able to actually melt stone walls, or constructions (and other terrain tiles) being able to catch fire and burn when appropriate in contact with magma or fire (ie no more wooden walls to block off magma).
4. Will shields eventually no longer be immune to dragonfire when blocking it? (and presumably other attacks that the material shouldn't be able to withstand).
5. Will werebeasts/other transformations always regenerate the body fully on transforming? There's something to be said thematically about wounds carrying over between forms (I presume this is a technical challenge, especially where body parts don't match up 1-1).
6a. What are your thoughts/ideas about magic related to fate/prophecy/destiny both in worldgen and in play? As in, its technical feasibility and how it could work.
6b. Same question as 6a, but for magic relating to time travel/manipulation? Like stopping time or slowing it down (which I guess is the same as speeding the user up sufficiently technically), or slowing down/freezing the time of specific objects or creatures, and traveling to the future and the past?
7. This might end up being related to the previous 2 questions funny enough, but are there any kinds of magic that you would have liked to have eventually, but which you consider just too impossible/impractical computationally to ever do?
-----
8:
I've got a long question here (well, more a short question, and a lot of explaining what I am asking about); how does the magic generation work/how does it apply constraints at different levels?
By this I mean, some magic may have certain costs, or certain effects it can have, and ways to be learned, sources it can be accessed from, methods by which it can be cast, ranges it can affect, whether it persists or requires constant maintenance, and all kinds of other limitation/ability/way it works.
But some aspects/constraints in a given magic system often can vary between individuals, or bloodlines, or species, or sources (gods, natural forces etc), and other aspects within those same groupings may remain the same, as constant rules and/or themes (and these aspects can naturally "nest" as you go deeper), and these constraints all help to give the magic system a unique "flavor", as well as cement it around some consistent themes.
For example:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So my question is, how is it planned to work for DF, roughly speaking? What's the system whereby constraints are imposed during worldgen (other than spheres), sometimes at different stages/steps, and how would it decide what scopes to place the constraints at? To be clear, I'm not talking about a myth&magic editor, or even modding or advanced configuration here (because clearly you could force certain constraints manually this way), but the vanilla generator, with configuration being limited to the basic worldgen screen and whatever simple options that has.
I ask because from what I've seen with the mythgen stuff talked about elsewhere, it feels like the only global constraints any world would have, would be magical spheres, and other than that, a lot of it looks just random for each interaction with a given species by a given god/primordial creative force, which seems like it would end up with a bit of a kitchen sink of magic in every single world, rather than allowing it to be possible all magic center among some limited themes/restrictions like most magic systems (themes other than spheres of the actual spells being cast that is); I am probably mistaken though, which is why I ask.
1. I'd expect the rewrite to allow for additional fluids, because that's something that affects the structures. Whether any additional liquids will be present at the first iteration is a different issue.
5. It's really a technical problem to transform wounds on and through polymorphing, and there are reasons to assume Toady wants to be able to carry wounds through for some transformations, while weres probably should continue to heal fully (at least in some worlds).
6a. The subject has been mentioned in talks. It's tricky, but feasible in principle at least to some extent. Scheduled events are possible, for instance, including allowing for influence to stop them from happening/assisting them into happening. Fate/destiny may be trickier, especially if it would require the universe to turn upside down to prevent the destined person from dying to allow for the destiny to be fulfilled, but it ought to be possible to assist some fates (destined to fall in battle -> greatly increased risk to die when engaged in battle; possibly generate a coup/mutiny against someone hiding from such a destiny), while hard to engineer others (Oidipus, for instance).
6b. Time travel beyond passive witnessing of past event would be a mess. Time speed manipulation is probably more of an issue of whether the results would be interesting and worth the effort required (all timers would somehow have to be set to a different rate, for instance).
8. My understanding is that mythgen would generate the constraints for the magic systems as part of the process such that each system gets a common set of underlying principles/rules. However, there may be more than one magic system in the same world, so you might have bloodline magic, trained magic, species magic, and "divine" magic in the same world but with different constraints for each set (and there's nothing to stop e.g. two bloodlines to appear within the same world with different constraints, or have multiple panthea with different sets of rules for "divine" magic).
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 25, 2021, 01:02:36 pm
6b. Time travel beyond passive witnessing of past event would be a mess. Time speed manipulation is probably more of an issue of whether the results would be interesting and worth the effort required (all timers would somehow have to be set to a different rate, for instance).
8. My understanding is that mythgen would generate the constraints for the magic systems as part of the process such that each system gets a common set of underlying principles/rules. However, there may be more than one magic system in the same world, so you might have bloodline magic, trained magic, species magic, and "divine" magic in the same world but with different constraints for each set (and there's nothing to stop e.g. two bloodlines to appear within the same world with different constraints, or have multiple panthea with different sets of rules for "divine" magic).
6b:
Perhaps, but I don't think it's so impossible. In worldgen and the unloaded world I feel like it could work similarly to destiny/fate, where some creature or object appears out of "a time portal" or whatever (with some made up memories/personality), and then history gen conspires to make sure that this creature is born (or object is made) and lives up until they "go back to the past" in the state they appeared in.
It probably wouldn't be possible for the player to do though, unless... Toady has said that in some magic update (not first pass), there would be 2-way travel between dimensions/planes, so maybe certain moments of the past could be frozen as a "dimension" code-wise and allowed to be visited? For sure this would mean time travel cannot just be a causal spell probably, and there would have to be specific points you're "allowed" to travel to, since the game would need to save a snapshot of the world to return to that point.
As for future travel, that would be functionally similar to what Toady has said about "resuming worldgen", or whatever that waiting period is after embarking where a week or so passes on the calendar, just on a longer scale.
Time speed manipulation... Yeah, it's a matter of being worth it I guess (though "interesting results", IMO is a given), but I'm curious what the challenges are and if it's being considered. One challenge for sure is that NPC's speeding up time for themselves (or stopping it for the world) would require solving "letting creatures move multiple tiles in 1 tick", and "let them do many more actions in 1 tick". By comparison, slowing down the clocks of other things/the world strikes me as much easier to solve in comparison (and since an adventure-mode player speeding themselves up would manifest as everything else slowing down, that would be easier to implement than letting NPC's do it).
8. I see; I hope then that mythgen is able to frequently make worlds with global constraints across all magic, because the mythgen demos I've seen don't give that impression to me (even within a single magic system of a single species there looks to be little in common between effects and costs, sometimes being a single word and other times requiring flesh).
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 25, 2021, 04:34:52 pm
8. My understanding is that costs should be somewhat consistent within each system (but not necessarily worth it), rather than wildly different between different spells within the same system. When it comes to across systems consistency that ought to fall under one or more of the magic sliders.
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 26, 2021, 02:19:48 am
Travel to the future is trivial; it's the returning that causes a mess (I believe I've heard of an AD&D pact with an arch demon that had the wisher ask for the death of someone, which the demon fulfilled by time stopping the wisher until the "victim" had died...).
Oh right, I had mistakenly been thinking the problem was knowing what state the past was in so it could be returned to, but you're talking about the grandfather paradox, and possibly also the distinct, but related problem that "you didn't record every single action the player ever commanded, so the very act of going back in time and then going back means everything will be completely different because the fort/adventurers will all be running on AI, and also the past version of the adventurer will act like an NPC if you meet them".
That's actually a pretty big issue, you're right, and the latter is an issue even for passive viewing of the past (because say you observe your own forts past; you'd have to ensure all the same designations/commands are given to the dwarves, and that all RNG/dwarf behavior happens exactly the same); though I still stand by it not being a problem for NPC's because you can just "invent" people from the future and then use the same tricks for destiny/fate to force their later birth/going to the past, but for players going back I suppose the only way around that would be to not bother trying to preserve "the way history originally went" at all and basically just wipe out all player forts and adventurers histories in that world and chalk it up to the butterfly effect or some other cosmic consequence of going back in time.
And you'd have to just not care about the grandfather paradox, perhaps by saying "you actually traveled to an alternate reality, so your "original" history still has your grandfather in it", or sort of half-acknowledge it so that if you mess up your ancestry/act of going back, you turn into a sort of "time ghoul" for lack of a better word, half-existent, maybe with your characters memories being lost as a result.
Or maybe this is just trying way too hard to make an impractical idea work....
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 26, 2021, 07:45:19 am
Wouldn't it be nice to have more than 4 season music and perhaps sounds for workshops(hammers/wood saw etc)? As far as I understand it will require very simple coding (play sound.mp3 on loop when tile X is within N distance from center of the screen) but would add to perceived 'polish' of the game.
You mentioned switching engines? Could you elaborate? Do you plan to switch to something like Unity eventually?
I think for release at least, 4 seasons music is enough, and if there were to be more music, it probably shouldn't just be random variations of season music (like autumn track 1, autumn track 2 etc), it should be tied to some aspect of the area you're in, or what's currently going on.
For example, music that plays in evil areas, or in good areas, or music for adventure mode that is seasonal, but plays only when exploring the wilderness/uninhabited areas so you'd have "season music" and "season music in forts/settlements/inhabited places" (and maybe different variations for different settlements; goblin pits and elven forests seem like they would have a different vibe to dwarven forts and hillocks). Maybe also music for invasions/sieges and unleashed clowns, or megabeast attacks, and I'm sure I could come up with a variety of others. You could have many variations of music by using overlapping tracks, as done in some other games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlHJW_kShVQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaBJ2C7Am6E
For sound effects and ambience, localized workshops might be alright (if there are too many at a time I could see it getting noisy/cluttered, so this might need to be tested).
Not 100% sure about the engines, but I'm certain he's just talking about the graphics engine/renderer; he definitely isn't switching to Unity.
On the topic of audio though, for the longterm, what do you think in terms of expansion of music and sound effects and ambience? Would you aim towards eventually having something with as much extensive variety as SoundSense for example?
Post by: Gtyx1 on May 31, 2021, 02:19:16 am
2. will the guildhall zone option in adventure mode allow for training idle followers within the designated zone? and if so could those followers form a guild?
3. How do Adventurer camps interact with the world? are they recognized as actual settlements that people migrate to and such, or are they nonexistent entities in the eyes of the factions of the world?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 31, 2021, 03:03:45 am
1. Are there plans to have the stone materials be tweaked to make them less inferior to say, bones? (in terms of sharpness and whatnot at least)I suggest you move this suggestion to the suggestion sub forum, adding the reasons you think things should be changed and how they should be changed. The questions in this thread are essentially left to sink into oblivion once they've been answered (i.e. Toady won't go back to this thread to look for things), while he does look a the suggestions, in particular when reworking related functionality.
:
Post by: Vincie on May 31, 2021, 03:09:56 pm
how does armour size scaling function exactly? what's the exact min and max equip size for dorfs, as the wiki states 52.500 (emu men armor) still should be wearable, but actually isn't and has the prefix "small" once you craft it. when you craft armor in fort mode which defaults to dwarven size, what actual size is the armour? exactly 60.000 for adults? do you get negative combat rolls or something like that for wearing armour that's from another creature but lacks the prefix 'small' or 'large', meaning you can equip it normally? on the other hand apart from the weight itself, are there maybe other beneficial factors, like hyena man armour beeing slightly larger? the stats like coverage are still the same tho.
i included questions from other ppl aswel as I made a post on reddit prior
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/nnvr26/armor_for_wolf_men_fits_dorfs_and_weighs_a_bit/
and here
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178577.0
thx toady
Post by: clinodev on May 31, 2021, 04:14:07 pm
If so, how far along is it?
Post by: Urist McSadist on May 31, 2021, 04:17:59 pm
Post by: Beag on May 31, 2021, 05:45:35 pm
2. What is one interesting graphical challenge you or your team has encountered recently in preparing the steam release of dwarf fortress?
Post by: voliol on May 31, 2021, 05:58:29 pm
Exactly what is on the table in terms of siege improvements until the magic update?
1. What sort of content is on the table for the interlude between the steam release and the myth and magic big wait?Some candidates are listed at the top of this page (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html). I don't think it's been disclosed exactly what is making it in or not, if it's even been decided.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 01, 2021, 02:29:18 am
As far as I understand, the development process consists of bringing up all the possible candidates for a development phase and then cut the ones that won't make it either after some further thought (too much work to be worth it/requires too much work in unrelated areas/...), or during development (out of time/didn't work out/too many problems and not time to deal with them/...).Exactly what is on the table in terms of siege improvements until the magic update?1. What sort of content is on the table for the interlude between the steam release and the myth and magic big wait?Some candidates are listed at the top of this page (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html). I don't think it's been disclosed exactly what is making it in or not, if it's even been decided.
That's also a reason for not presenting candidates beforehand, as some people will inevitably consider their pet candidates to have been "promised" (despite it's being clearly described as candidates) and then feel cheated when they didn't make the cut. I too will be disappointed when a hoped for thing doesn't make it, but won't blame Toady (too much) for "making the wrong choice"...
Post by: Mr Crabman on June 01, 2021, 03:41:00 pm
2. Is it planned for workshop jobs/the searchable list of jobs to have icons representing the item type to be made/job to be completed beside them? I saw it's absent from the news screenshots, but I assume this could be chalked up to it just not being implemented yet, but just wanted to be sure.
Post by: Toady One on June 01, 2021, 09:44:01 pm
Quote from: TranquilRiverGiant
Currently in adventure mode, in large towns it's not uncommon to find characters murdered in the streets from random fights (especially if there are a lot of goblins). Will these events be considered crimes when the villains release is completed, and will it be possible for adventurers to "get to the bottom of it"?
It's not the focus, but the structures all overlap, so you might be able to figure some stuff out about random incidents you observe or bodies you find. Some of those fights are still bugs or bug-adjacent though, I assume, and I'm not sure what we'll end up with there.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
What do you think of a "Minecraft resource pack"-like solution of having a menu where the player can define the load order of mods themselves, such that if a mod tries to create the same object as another mod, whatever mod is on the top of the load order would override the first version of the object? The same could go for mods trying to overwrite the same vanilla object (assuming merging objects can't be done).
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8276419#msg8276419
Having a settable load order is a reasonable thing, and I expect, yeah, people will want mods-of-mods to work that way. I'm sure I'll have to make some adjustments as we go, especially since I don't have time to do anything really complicated on the first pass. And I haven't gotten a chance to look at workshop integration yet, so I can't speculate on what we'll end up with meaningfully in any detail.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Children will help to do simple tasks, like hauling? Does this mean they'll have a limited labour menu? Now that you've taken a look at child labour, does that mean that they'll be able to, for instance, attend educational courses at guildhalls, or something, as well?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8275731#msg8275731
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8275800#msg8275800
Yeah, stuff like hauling and cleaning, perhaps helping with food and water. We won't have time to do apprenticeship stuff, but we're leading into that as well - that'll also be related to the workshop profile overhaul that still needs doing. There won't be a lot interesting about this for the initial pass, but the mechanical distance between where we are and apprentices also won't be that far - there's some sense currently that because of the new labor behavior, tying individuals to workshops is a bit more important, which kind of naturally leads in to personalization of shops/apprentices/etc., though we have to be mindful of future workshop zones etc. during all this too, ha ha.
Quote from: leastannoyingman
With the myth/magic update, is there anything planned regarding evolution or corruption of different races and species (sentient and non-sentient)? This could include either initial mythical origins, "natural" evolution and mutations, hybrid species, or unnatural/magical forces and experiments.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8278301#msg8278301
Just a note on your later custom groupings post ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8278407#msg8278407 ) - since this already happens with deities (when they cover more than one sphere), I imagine this'll all come for free from the editor/param side.
Quote
Quote from: ror6axWouldn't it be nice to have more than 4 season music and perhaps sounds for workshops(hammers/wood saw etc)? As far as I understand it will require very simple coding (play sound.mp3 on loop when tile X is within N distance from center of the screen) but would add to perceived 'polish' of the game.
Same question as above, but animated textures(tree leaves/grass/snow). Seems easy, would look great, mostly a job for artists - what gives?
You mentioned switching engines? Could you elaborate? Do you plan to switch to something like Unity eventually?Quote from: Mr_CrabmanOn the topic of audio though, for the longterm, what do you think in terms of expansion of music and sound effects and ambience? Would you aim towards eventually having something with as much extensive variety as SoundSense for example?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8279989#msg8279989
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8282592#msg8282592
For the first two questions, music/sound and graphics, yeah, coding is generally not the barrier, at least with the kind of thing we are doing. But the assets have to come from somewhere. There are several professions involved here, and that takes money, time, and organization. We are doing what we know how to do with what we have.
The simple switch up to SDL2 makes the most sense first. We can't switch to anything like Unity in the time frame we are in, though eventually some switch to something is going to make sense compared to what I can do in a custom engine. It's just less and less practical to try to keep up with things on your own, especially if it's not something you're interested in (that is, programming for OSs/graphics is neat, but I prefer working on DF.)
In the longterm, though, yeah, I'd like to have it all - if we obtain the resources to produce it, integration won't be super difficult, though you eventually have to start worrying about channel limits/priorities/pools etc., or at least you did a decade ago when I last fiddled with numerous concurrent sounds in FMOD.
Quote from: Mobbstar
The Premium graphics currently show tiles from Z-levels below the current one (if no obstacles occlude them of course).
1) Will the Classic graphics also do this?
2) Will (clear) glass become transparent?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8280733#msg8280733
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8280760#msg8280760
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8280785#msg8280785
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8280791#msg8280791
1) Classic is one tile-per-tile in the old way, and it still uses the old colors so layering wouldn't really work. This doesn't mean of course that people couldn't leverage the new features to set up whatever balance between tiles and graphics they want as mods spring up.
2) As the Mr_Crabman noted, it's translucent now.
Quote from: Immortal-D
On the Steam build; the preview of the Trade Depot & Wagons / Pack Animals was nice, but gave me the feeling of being too much detail that most players will overlook. For the sake of your own time and mental energy, has there been any instances where you decided that a certain feature (graphics or UI) would be nice, but ultimately not worth the effort?
DwarfStar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281536#msg8281536
Ha ha, yeah, as DwarfStar says, everything you've seen has been impacted by this, and generally represents some balance between getting stuff done and showing some detail. The recent bridges, for instance, could show the type of stone/block, or the different colors of glass, or have multistage raising animations. They don't right now, because it would be more work and we need to move on. And etc.
Quote from: squamous
I think it was mentioned at some point that vampires would be getting a look-over/improvement in the near future? Are there any particular ideas being considered and would they be moddable?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281584#msg8281584
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281666#msg8281666
Nothing to add to the replies here - nothing before Steam, villain-related stuff for villains, then whatever happens in myth/magic, which isn't specifically known for them.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1. Can we expect to see new spheres for the myth and magic release?
2. You've mentioned having dragons (and other megabeasts) be randomly generated not just in abilities, but also physical traits/appearance, but with constraints so they are still reasonably called "dragons"; do you have plans to set something up like this for the other, non-megabeast fantasy creatures as well, including dwarves and elves? That is, their appearance, physical traits and culture/default entities.
3. Speaking of entities, will entities be more varied (and random) in the future? It's slightly odd that all members of a species have the same cultural ethics and societal structure, except when they are subsumed into a civilization of another primary species.
4. At some point, will siegers/other creatures no longer have omniscience about which way to go into a fortress and actually potentially even wander into dead ends if someone say, builds a maze?
5. Will hydras eventually regrow destroyed/severed heads?
6. Will there eventually be more motivations for necromancy than obsession with one's own mortality? I'd imagine there are more reasons someone might seek to become a necromancer.
7. Do you mean it used to be the plan to expose [monster generation logic] to the raws, but they won't be anymore? Would this be more restrictive than the original plan? I'm afraid I'm not clearly understanding this response/what is meant by "mythgen/editor".
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281795#msg8281795
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281835#msg8281835
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281870#msg8281870
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281887#msg8281887
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281994#msg8281994
1. There are some concepts we're missing, for sure, and we may find ourselves missing them as we go. I ultimately want to focus on sphere combinations/etc. that are procedural, using what we have to build more interesting intermediate structures that differs from universe to universe, since there's a sense in which the spheres get samey no matter how you handle them, but since most of them relate to fairly basic ideas, that's also kind of unavoidable. Also, a plane that has, say, some light/astro state that isn't day or night or dusk or dawn, but something else, based on its unique situation, could perhaps have some sort of basic-level but still procedural sphere, and you can go from there for the other sorts of concepts. Which is to say, we could end up anywhere, ha ha. But of course even getting some basic stuff in for the already-existing spheres will take us a long way.
2. I don't have specific plans here, but it might be a natural progression - the dragon concept was the test case, but once the syntax is in, it wouldn't be tied to dragons at all.
3. Yeah, that's one of the major points of the embark scenario/entity rewrite/law/etc. release to follow the myth stuff. They can currently vary in certain ways, but not others, and we'd like to get it all to a variable state, even within one civilization over time etc.
4. To some extent we're going to try this, or something related to it, in terms of thinking about death heavy-areas at the very least. Taking away omniscience means storing knowledge though, in some form, and for maps this gets expensive and/or slow, rapidly.
5. It's a common enough feature for them so I expect something like that will happen. All of the healing-type effects from shrines were added fairly quickly, so I didn't really consider how they might be used on existing creatures etc. They might take some tweaks, but maybe we already have enough. Not for the "two heads replace one" thing you sometimes get though. That's a bit harder!
6. It'll all be blown wide open once necromancy isn't the only one we have, and that's the next time we're taking a look at it most likely.
7. voliol's correct that the details haven't been worked out. Broadly, if we don't switch over to a full scripting language, there's definitely some kind of restriction on what can be exposed (the FB generators aren't super complicated, but parts of them rely on code), and I'm not sure we'll be able to make that jump. However, many things that the generator uses, especially interesting parts like the body bases and how they are interacted with, should all be out in text files. There's no reason to have more than a hundred little animal body descriptors hard-coded, and pulling those out also has implications for centaur generators and everything else. So much so, that it starts to get messy, and the details haven't been worked out, ha ha. In any case, I expect the combination of parameters and editors available should more than compensate for certain facets of the process still being wound up in code. A lot is going to come out to text, and be integrated far more intricately than we were initially imagining.
Quote from: Afghani84
Are there any plans to revisit the issues with military equipment for the steam release, e.g. woodcutters and miners not being able to use their work tools as weapons? Any other changes planned regarding squads and military interactions?
We haven't gotten started on this yet, but it's coming up soon since both the labor rewrites and military stuff are looming. And I'll probably have to rewrite the entire tool/weapon assigner to get rid of the raid bug. Because of that, I can't speculate as to where it'll end up yet. I'm pretty sure civilian equipment is just going to have to be handled differently altogether.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1. Will the map rewrite bring us liquid tiles other than water and magma? Rivers of blood would fit right into some more evil biomes, and a moat of honey would be interesting (exhausting siegers with the sheer viscosity of it).
2. Will the map rewrite also be where water no longer freezes instantly?
3. At some point will tiles other than water be affected by temperature? For example, dragonfire being able to actually melt stone walls, or constructions (and other terrain tiles) being able to catch fire and burn when appropriate in contact with magma or fire (ie no more wooden walls to block off magma).
4. Will shields eventually no longer be immune to dragonfire when blocking it? (and presumably other attacks that the material shouldn't be able to withstand).
5. Will werebeasts/other transformations always regenerate the body fully on transforming? There's something to be said thematically about wounds carrying over between forms (I presume this is a technical challenge, especially where body parts don't match up 1-1).
6a. What are your thoughts/ideas about magic related to fate/prophecy/destiny both in worldgen and in play? As in, its technical feasibility and how it could work.
6b. Same question as 6a, but for magic relating to time travel/manipulation? Like stopping time or slowing it down (which I guess is the same as speeding the user up sufficiently technically), or slowing down/freezing the time of specific objects or creatures, and traveling to the future and the past?
7. This might end up being related to the previous 2 questions funny enough, but are there any kinds of magic that you would have liked to have eventually, but which you consider just too impossible/impractical computationally to ever do?
-----
8:
I've got a long question here (well, more a short question, and a lot of explaining what I am asking about); how does the magic generation work/how does it apply constraints at different levels?
By this I mean, some magic may have certain costs, or certain effects it can have, and ways to be learned, sources it can be accessed from, methods by which it can be cast, ranges it can affect, whether it persists or requires constant maintenance, and all kinds of other limitation/ability/way it works.
But some aspects/constraints in a given magic system often can vary between individuals, or bloodlines, or species, or sources (gods, natural forces etc), and other aspects within those same groupings may remain the same, as constant rules and/or themes (and these aspects can naturally "nest" as you go deeper), and these constraints all help to give the magic system a unique "flavor", as well as cement it around some consistent themes.
So my question is, how is it planned to work for DF, roughly speaking? What's the system whereby constraints are imposed during worldgen (other than spheres), sometimes at different stages/steps, and how would it decide what scopes to place the constraints at? To be clear, I'm not talking about a myth&magic editor, or even modding or advanced configuration here (because clearly you could force certain constraints manually this way), but the vanilla generator, with configuration being limited to the basic worldgen screen and whatever simple options that has.
I ask because from what I've seen with the mythgen stuff talked about elsewhere, it feels like the only global constraints any world would have, would be magical spheres, and other than that, a lot of it looks just random for each interaction with a given species by a given god/primordial creative force, which seems like it would end up with a bit of a kitchen sink of magic in every single world, rather than allowing it to be possible all magic center among some limited themes/restrictions like most magic systems (themes other than spheres of the actual spells being cast that is); I am probably mistaken though, which is why I ask.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8281994#msg8281994
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8282373#msg8282373
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8282435#msg8282435
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8282540#msg8282540
1. Yeah, as PatrikLundell says, doing the framework here is a priority candidate, because it changes underlying stuff quite a bit. But hard to say what we'll end up with. Allowing any material to be supported all over the map requires quite a bit of data, which is fine for spatter/walls, but with flows it can get out of control rapidly, so we'll need to be careful.
2. This is unclear - it's not as involved as adding other liquid types, so getting the structures right early isn't as crucial. It can probably mostly be handled with existing stuff.
3. I don't even remember the reason we didn't do this originally. I'm not sure if it made fire demons and dragons too cave-in prone, or if there was some other issue. Maybe it was glaciers? It should certainly be done at some point.
4. It'll probably stay the same until we add some other ways to defeat them, or maybe we are at that point. Dragonfire temperature is totally ridiculous of course currently - I'm not sure what it should actually do, like plasma the air and destroy the whole screen or something. Certainly not safe for wooden shields.
5. Yeah, the body part/tissue layer match is the main issue, relating to a lot of our other body problems (centaurs, half-dwarves, etc.)
6a/6b. I think PatrikLundell covered these well enough.
7. It's all like that pretty much, ha ha. The time stuff is hard to even start, but having giant sloshing or manipulated fluids, or a proper embedded thought/persuasion spell, or context-aware luck spells, or really anything that isn't a crisp little effect. We can just get things up to a certain point, and the simulation is going to carry it to some interesting places, but there'll be a lot more we just can't do.
8. Regarding the current prototype, we just haven't done a lot with this yet, and we didn't spend very much time on it at all, since we aren't actually working on it yet. It isn't close to what we expect to have by the first myth/magic release, but more to demonstrate what the overall idea is, and to give us a feel for what sorts of problems we'll be facing early on.
There is a touch of what we were hoping to have come up, with the primordial creation bits - these are already more restricted than "our creator deity gave us powers in some spheres accessed through <random method dump>", and sometimes the wands and books made from them would require a whole quest (and sometimes not), and feels the most like your example when it has statements like "all magic in the world is X". And the more stuff you add like that, the more you can restrict/connect/change, and the more parameters you can then add, so that sliders etc. start to feel more and more meaningful.
"Sliders" here are all of the parameters you might mean by "global constraints" in your question, and when we say things like "low magic universe" there'll need to be a ton of code to enforce what that actually means (and, as currently with map gen, a lot of extra parameters controlled by more general default sliders/settings/categories.) Low magic might mean that all creature-innate magic for the main standard playables is turned off, or heavily restricted in a way that balances with other available forms, so that the game can be confident that there isn't lots of magic being done all the time. There's just going to be a growing parameter set and lots of bookkeeping I expect, but it feels like it'll come together.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
Do you worry that some things that are currently regarded as spoilers/secrets may be spoiled for new players by the myth generator/viewer?
I don't have quite the same view about the endgame as part of the community has and don't really use terms like clowns and circuses. It doesn't seem like much of a spoiler because it's reasonably similar to one of the biggest media franchises ever. Still, we wanted to have a sense of discovery available when engaging with the myths, so some of the default/common paths through might obscure some things, including some of the deeper secrets that might count as generated twists etc. Other people will just want full data dumps to read through.
Quote from: Gtyx1
1. Are there plans to have the stone materials be tweaked to make them less inferior to say, bones? (in terms of sharpness and whatnot at least)
2. will the guildhall zone option in adventure mode allow for training idle followers within the designated zone? and if so could those followers form a guild?
3. How do Adventurer camps interact with the world? are they recognized as actual settlements that people migrate to and such, or are they nonexistent entities in the eyes of the factions of the world?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8283925#msg8283925
1. It should depend on the stone, I imagine! I'd certainly be up for updating/incorporating those values, but I don't have time to source stuff. Obsidian of course is its own nasty thing and will remain sharp, to honor my two inch Oregon High Desert scar.
2. I didn't do anything at all with this, and I'm not sure when I'll return to it for adv mode. It would be cool to work on peaceful stuff again over there sometime.
3. They don't have one of the traditional types (city, mountain halls, forest retreat, etc.) so they aren't viewed as settlements. Certainly at some point we're hoping to expand what you can make and how it is understood.
Quote from: Vincie
wolf men armor fits dwarves and weighs a bit less, cougar/hyenna man sized armor fits dwarves and humans alike and weighs a bit more. wolf men have adult size 55k, dwarves 60k and cougar/hyenna men 65k. in a previous question thread you wrote the rule seems to be like 6/7, creature size 7/8.my question
how does armour size scaling function exactly? what's the exact min and max equip size for dorfs, as the wiki states 52.500 (emu men armor) still should be wearable, but actually isn't and has the prefix "small" once you craft it. when you craft armor in fort mode which defaults to dwarven size, what actual size is the armour? exactly 60.000 for adults? do you get negative combat rolls or something like that for wearing armour that's from another creature but lacks the prefix 'small' or 'large', meaning you can equip it normally? on the other hand apart from the weight itself, are there maybe other beneficial factors, like hyena man armour beeing slightly larger? the stats like coverage are still the same tho.
Yeah, the armor will be a bit thicker and also heavier, which contributes to potential clunkiness vs. armor skill, though the thickness calc is a bit weird so I wouldn't count on it helping particularly.
The formula for armor volume looks like it uses the coverage and layer size as percentages, and multiplies those by... some grid built from the number of up steps and down steps, computed in each caste... how is the grid built... okay, take the relsize of the upper body body part, times the total size of the creature, divided by the total of all the relsizes. So, the percentage of the creature that is upper body, basically. That is the basic number. Then, depending on how many up or down steps you take, add 25%. So if you have 2 down steps and 1 up step, it would be 175% of the basic number. (Notably, it doesn't try to look at limbs or lower bodies or legs or whatever - it just adds a fixed percentage.) It works similarly for pants, boots, and grasps with their up/down steps. The head just uses the basic number (and for all these other items, the basic number is relatively to the head/lower body etc. part - if you have differently sized grasps, or differently sized heads, I think it just uses the last one.)
At a glance, this is of course pretty ridiculous with the layer size values we have - a shirt has layer size 10, so the shirt is 10% the volume of the upper body (plus 75% for the max ubstep), so 17% the volume. That is very very bulky, and aligns with some bug reports I remember.
I didn't run any tests here, so I could be missing all kinds of things.
For small/large, the formula I see is
wearer creature size <= item creature size * 6/7 means the item is too large
and
wearer creature size >= item creature size * 8/7 means the item is too small
because there's an = sign in there, that means 52500 is right at the too-small cutoff and cannot be worn.
Quote from: clinodev
Are you and ThreeToe continuing the Premium fortress you've been showing in the Steam Community Updates?
If so, how far along is it?
Unfortunately he's been struck by the same issue that hits me regularly, that you just have to constantly restart as development continues. For instance, until I redo the mod/graphics setup so that the graphics aren't in save folders anymore, he needs to start a new fort whenever the graphics are updated, which is all the time.
Quote
Quote from: Urist McSadistExactly what is on the table in terms of siege improvements until the magic update?Quote from: Beag1. What sort of content is on the table for the interlude between the steam release and the myth and magic big wait?
2. What is one interesting graphical challenge you or your team has encountered recently in preparing the steam release of dwarf fortress?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8284059#msg8284059
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8284155#msg8284155
For the table questions, I've given all the siege information there is currently over at the dev page voliol linked to. There are also things in the overall siege category that are definitely not happening, like moving fortress sections or multistory siege engines, or anything else that relates to map-rewrite stuff. Then for the broader table question, we have finishing the villain release, siege improvements, getting the adventurer armied up in some way, adv mode medical stuff, and doing some more with the fort and commanding larger armies. Likely some other things will happen as well in this process. And all of that will have to respect our new itchy steamy reality, whatever that means - if that means more bugfix releases, or certain graphical additions as we go, it's difficult to guess from this distance.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1. Quite a few functions/screens in the Premium release have had some pretty significant changes, like with "zone bedrooms/other rooms", and also the announced plans to consolidate all the "look" functions into 1 menu, and being able to send items to the trade depo from the items themselves; what are some other screens and functions you expect to also have significant improvements like that? As opposed to say, workshops, which do have some improvements (like seeing what is located there at the same time as the jobs, searching the list of job types, and mouse controls, and obviously all the polish/readability), but otherwise look relatively similar to before in functionality.
2. Is it planned for workshop jobs/the searchable list of jobs to have icons representing the item type to be made/job to be completed beside them? I saw it's absent from the news screenshots, but I assume this could be chalked up to it just not being implemented yet, but just wanted to be sure.
1. There's no way the military screen is staying in its current form, ha ha ha.
2. I'm not sure what we'll end up with there. Unlike the item/creature lists etc., a tile isn't immediately linkable to every job, because they don't all have one clear output item, so it's a whole task sorting it out, and there are a lot of them. Fortunately, most of them are related to a single item.
Post by: Inarius on June 02, 2021, 02:30:33 am
A question for next month !
Do you feel concerned/worried by the collapse in forum's activity ? (activity divided by 3 - 6 in 7 years depending on what you are looking at)
At the same time donations have never been this high but I wonder if this means that Dwarf fortress isn't a game everybody loves but nobody plays anymore. Or is it because forum aren't used anymore replaced by - for instance- Reddit ?
Post by: voliol on June 02, 2021, 02:55:55 am
A question for next month !
Do you feel concerned/worried by the collapse in forum's activity ? (activity divided by 3 - 6 in 7 years depending on what you are looking at)
At the same time donations have never been this high but I wonder if this means that Dwarf fortress isn't a game everybody loves but nobody plays anymore. Or is it because forum aren't used anymore replaced by - for instance- Reddit ?
The usage of traditional forums as a whole is dwindling. It’s the passage of time, and new attractive options like reddit and more recently discord groups appearing. The latter are especially tricky, as there is no clearcut way of counting them, or measuring how popular they are.
Has the DF downloads decreased? Otherwise I wouldn’t worry people aren’t playing the game.
Post by: Inarius on June 02, 2021, 04:51:19 am
Even the new version, as it will be on Steam and not only on bay12games, will change everything so it will hard to have an idea of "real" activity...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 02, 2021, 05:43:49 am
And by what measurements are you seeing dwindling activity? Reddit seems popular, don't think they're losing activity. And people actually talk regularly on the Discord which is kind of mind boggling to old folk like me, but reassuring.
Post by: Vincie on June 02, 2021, 09:09:14 am
Post by: BlueManedHawk on June 02, 2021, 03:53:59 pm
Is it true that the leftwards and rightwards triangle will be used as delimiters for magical items?
Post by: clinodev on June 03, 2021, 05:47:32 am
Thanks Toady !
A question for next month !
Do you feel concerned/worried by the collapse in forum's activity ? (activity divided by 3 - 6 in 7 years depending on what you are looking at)
At the same time donations have never been this high but I wonder if this means that Dwarf fortress isn't a game everybody loves but nobody plays anymore. Or is it because forum aren't used anymore replaced by - for instance- Reddit ?
It's probably not as bad as you think. I do regularly encourage people on other community platforms to make B12Forum accounts, simply because there's much here not found elsewhere, FotF and Toady One principally. It's worth noting this is a recurrent question that Toady's sort of shrugged at in the past.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7924238#msg7924238
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7924274#msg7924274
I don't have any Bay 12 Forum numbers you don't, but I do have some info for some other forums.
The subreddit is currently sitting at ~116k subscribers, and gaining ~50 a day. Subscribers are people who have made accounts and actively chose to add /r/dwarffortress to their list of monitored subreddits, and most reddit users never make accounts. We're seeing ~6k unique viewers per day, viewing ~25k pages. Since I can share it, here's the raw data: https://imgur.com/a/n5k3Boo
A little over 51k people have viewed the Steam Community Update from 2 weeks ago, and the one from today is doing well. Engagement numbers on Steam, ignoring the announcement period, have generally trended up. (Thanks to Kitfox Tanya and Alexandra for permission to share for that info!)
I suspect just as the last time, we discover DF is more popular than ever, more people are in the wider community, and for a decade people have been coming into the community through where they find it, this forum, reddit, Discord, or what have you. There are even some pretty active Facebook groups!
As for people playing, I have the distinct impression more people are actively playing 47.05 than any release since 2018. Stress was really rough for a lot of people, especially more casual and newer ones. Whether it's perfect now I can't say, but it errs towards being a playable game for more people if it does. On the subreddit and the Kitfox Discord, we're seeing a lot of new players in the last months.
[Updated with Steam info.]
Post by: Afghani84 on June 03, 2021, 06:36:22 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 04, 2021, 02:42:06 am
Are there any plans regarding simple terraforming, i.e. filling up single tiles with dirt or being able to rebuild ramps? If so, do you have an idea where it fits in the timeline?There are plans to make sand and clay deposits run out, and thoughts about moving soil for agriculture. Landscaping would be a fairly natural extension of that (basically, each tile would probably consist of X/Y of a substance, so you could remove it over time, and and that logic ought to allow for removal to be replaced by refilling [with the added complication that would result from mixed substances, possibly a new substance in the form of "mixed soil, or something]).
Since this would require data structure support on the tile level, the groundwork ought to be laid in the map rewrite part of the first Myth & Magic release (which doesn't necessarily mean usage of those new data structures would be in at that time).
Post by: Inarius on June 04, 2021, 02:46:01 am
Post by: GumNut on June 04, 2021, 07:40:34 am
Post by: leastannoyingman on June 04, 2021, 10:42:34 am
Quote from: leastannoyingmanWith the myth/magic update, is there anything planned regarding evolution or corruption of different races and species (sentient and non-sentient)? This could include either initial mythical origins, "natural" evolution and mutations, hybrid species, or unnatural/magical forces and experiments.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8278301#msg8278301
Just a note on your later custom groupings post ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8278407#msg8278407 ) - since this already happens with deities (when they cover more than one sphere), I imagine this'll all come for free from the editor/param side.
Bless you, Toadius Unus.
By "this'll all come for free" I'm assuming you mean that different overlapping forces on spheres would work, since deities can already overlap on spheres. I assume the other parts of the post (regarding how forces, deities, followers of opposing spheres would actually clash with each other) might not be exactly planned out yet, so I'll be waiting to see until the Myth & Magic update takes shape.
Another insane proposition would be if the system is built to allow linking magical forces to various unusual things, even if it's hacky and clumsy to activate - like editing raw files to connect magics to certain physical attributes, etc.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 04, 2021, 11:41:45 am
Thus, what's available to specify with the fully developed myth editor ought to be what the systems used by the myth generator supports, which depends on what Toady and ThreeToe have both thought out and implemented ("thought out" doesn't necessarily mean they're original thoughts, but even if well used tropes are used, they still have to be turned into a logic system for the game).
Post by: leastannoyingman on June 04, 2021, 01:01:53 pm
I don't see the tying of magic to properties as being insane, at least not reasonably static ones.
Oh, all the game's features are insane to me anyway.
The stuff about the myth generator and myth editor makes sense, thanks. Let's hope it'll have solid footing that could let you get really weird with it - like making magic powers depend on beard length, or something.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 05, 2021, 04:37:22 am
I doubt highly variable aspects would be included, but regardless, I'd be wary of suggesting that particular version unless you fancy being the target of a witch hunt organized by the political correctness mafia (whose ability to detect any trace of incorrect discrimination is honed to perfection).I don't see the tying of magic to properties as being insane, at least not reasonably static ones.
Oh, all the game's features are insane to me anyway.
The stuff about the myth generator and myth editor makes sense, thanks. Let's hope it'll have solid footing that could let you get really weird with it - like making magic powers depend on beard length, or something.
Post by: ror6ax on June 07, 2021, 05:22:45 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 07, 2021, 07:36:23 am
Aside from being technically ambitious task, have you considered what gameplay purpose will Myth and Magic serve? As a player, would it make a considerable difference for me to play a procgen race with procgen magic system as opposed to playing the hardcoded one?If that's a question to Toady you should mark it in lime green so he finds it when going through the questions at the beginning of the next month (separating questions from chaff like this post).
If it's a question to the forum at large, my answer is that it will serve the same kind of purpose as we currently have with regards to embarking in different biomes, with different geo biomes, and different neighbors, i.e. things that vary and you need to adapt to, keeping the experience fresh longer. That could have been achieved without any actual myth generation process, i.e. just mix things with a similar logic, but that won't generate any interesting backdrop (for player), nor does it seem to be particularly interesting to Toady. Also note that deities (and other creatures more powerful than the races) provide an additional layer, where one world may just be a battleground for deities with sapients as disposable pawn, while others may have different kinds of interactions (cooperative, "stealth" conflict, etc.). Again, it provides for additional challenges to overcome.
Post by: voliol on June 07, 2021, 01:43:16 pm
Post by: squamous on June 07, 2021, 03:40:01 pm
1. Even if multistory siege weapons are off the table, what sort of siege machines might be available, and how moddable will that whole system be? Will it be possible to create entirely custom siege weapons/ammunition for example? Would that extend to wagons?
2. Will the steam version of the game have an option to play the game in ascii, or will it be required to use the graphics pack?
3. Some mods come with the actual game's .exe for ease of installation, effectively functioning as an "independent" game you can install like the default one, how would mods like that function on the steam workshop if at all?
4. Will container items like backpacks and quivers become moddable before or after the Big Wait?
5. Will stuff like armor and weapons eventually become as granular as instruments? Maybe not in the near future, but at some point?
6. I believe it was discussed before that "normal" DF wouldn't feature technology past a certain level, but what sort of anachronisms do you think might be added as potential tools for NPCs to discover/develop?
7. What traits influence the odds of an NPC becoming an "adventurer" ie warrior/mercenary/monster slayer in worldgen? Violence and excitement-seeking maybe, but is there anything else?
Post by: Bumber on June 07, 2021, 04:42:10 pm
2. Will the steam version of the game have an option to play the game in ascii, or will it be required to use the graphics pack?
IIRC, it's been said that the Steam version will come with an ASCII option.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 07, 2021, 04:58:31 pm
1. Multi tile vehicles are off the table. Wagons are, technically, weird "animals" in the game, and that's something Toady want to get rid of.
1. Even if multistory siege weapons are off the table, what sort of siege machines might be available, and how moddable will that whole system be? Will it be possible to create entirely custom siege weapons/ammunition for example? Would that extend to wagons?
2. Will the steam version of the game have an option to play the game in ascii, or will it be required to use the graphics pack?
3. Some mods come with the actual game's .exe for ease of installation, effectively functioning as an "independent" game you can install like the normal one, how would mods like that function on the steam workshop if at all?
4. Will container items like backpacks and quivers become moddable before or after the Big Wait?
2. As Bumber said, the character tile set will be provided with both the Premium and Classic version, although I believe the Premium version will default to the MephDay set, so the player would have to switch the set if the character one is preferred.
Post by: George_Chickens on June 07, 2021, 06:54:13 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 07, 2021, 07:23:34 pm
Regarding development, is there an order of things planned before the Big Waittm? Can we expect adventure mode intrigues to be expanded and finished before the Big Waittm?Current plan (subject to change) is:
Steam and whatever bug fixes/cleaning is required there.
Villains (everything which isn't finished yet in Villains - lots).
Improved sieges & armies (+ Adventurer medical stuff)
- from the development pages.
Big Wait.
So quite a while to go before we get to Wait.
Post by: clinodev on June 08, 2021, 06:07:36 am
2. Will the steam version of the game have an option to play the game in ascii, or will it be required to use the graphics pack?
IIRC, it's been said that the Steam version will come with an ASCII option.
I honestly can't remember if it was Bay 12 or Kitfox at this point, because it was one of the big questions right away with the AMAs, but it was explained to me that it's against Steam's store TOS to offer special features elsewhere that aren't available through Steam. This is apparently why Kickstarters that give away bonus DLC content, etc., are so careful to end Kickstarter sales before their Steam store opens. In our case, it means "Classic tileset" will definitely be on Steam from the publisher, or nowhere.
Tarn's talked about the "Classic tileset" being available as an available open beta version, a sort of single tileset pre-install Pack, (like the ones we do on DFFD to get people testing new versions and utilities) (https://dffd.bay12games.com/who.php?id=7483) but I suspect that's outdated by now. It's my sincere hope that we'll end up with a tileset menu within the main game, and both "official" tilesets included with the basic install, with others easily added from the Steam Workshop. I imagine folks who regularly read the FotF are generally just fine installing their own tilesets, but it'd be great if it "just worked" for everyone with a click. If Workshop integration works at all, there's no sense in "Classic" being the hardest to install tileset, requiring delving into Steam menus.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 08, 2021, 11:21:15 am
One of the changes in the Premium release is the decoupling of the tile set from the raw files with the aim being that you'd select which tile set to use with the game at any time (possibly requiring a restart), allowing saves to be shared between people who use different tile sets while allowing each of them to use their favorite (as well as not raising a barrier between Premium version users using the MephDay set and everyone else).
If there won't be an integrated tile set selection in the game, it would probably be a text file editing action (that tools can put a shell on top of): it doesn't make any sense at all to require some Steam specific guff both because the Premium version currently is being scheduled for availability through Itch.io as well, and because the Classic version will still need to support non official tile sets.
Post by: Immortal-D on June 11, 2021, 05:15:33 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 12, 2021, 02:30:43 am
Just wondering if you've given any thought to what a tutorial might look like for Steam. Any notes or simply 'thinking out loud' ideas?There definitely have been thoughts, as Toady has mentioned it several times, and given how Toady and Threetoe seem to operate, there are probably lots of notes with more or less thought out ideas, and possibly even some side projects. Whether they're ready to share any of those initial thoughts is a different issue (weighing cost/benefit of discussions [takes time, but may provide useful suggestions], as well as some people treating lists of candidates as promises [at least when it comes to their favorite items]).
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 12, 2021, 02:37:48 am
https://www.pcgamer.com/tutorials-and-mouse-support-could-make-dwarf-fortress-on-steam-vastly-easier-to-play/
Post by: hamurlik on June 13, 2021, 04:00:48 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 13, 2021, 04:09:34 am
Do you have any way to protect the steam version of dwarf fortress from piracy? I assume that virtually all the game files from the normal, ascii version, stay on the steam version, but with new ui and tileset files; creative modders could try to integrate the stuff from steam version into the ascii version for free using someone else's copy of the game; does the steam version require steam to play, or you can just copy the files from your steam copy to share with other people, like with older games released on steam, where steam is just the "bootloader"?The tileset and music are the only locked items. Everything else is the same as the free version. Just a matter of flagging tilesets which use assets from premium and either blocking them or moderating forums like this one to prevent them being shared for free.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 13, 2021, 08:01:11 am
The UI could be somewhat protected if the associated code isn't included in the Classic version, but, again, crackers can probably devise cracks to patch the code with the functionality taken from the Premium version into a Classic "host" fairly quickly.
The greatest "protection" is probably the convenience of a product that works out of the box without having to resort to shady suppliers of patchers without any guarantee that those are free from piggybacking "extra" code.
Post by: Rafal99 on June 18, 2021, 12:44:03 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on June 18, 2021, 08:27:39 am
2. Will it be possible to engrave each side of a wall separately?
3. There are plans for siegers (presumably ones armed with mining tools) to be able to dig through tiles, but will some strong and/or big creatures/monsters be able to dig through tiles and smash through constructions without the use of tools?
4. What sort of limits if any (other than the obvious "no digging through adamantine/slade"), do you imagine instituting for digging siegers (or monsters) for balance purposes?
5. Different places in the real world have different durations of seasons (and in the southern hemisphere they are in reverse order), and AFAIK some places don't experience the familiar 4 seasons but instead have a different set, is this something that is planned eventually? Similar question goes for durations of day and night depending on location.
6. Speaking of seasons (and day/night cycles), does the "list of things to have in the game one day" include more bizarre/random/high magic worlds taking into account different astronomy (amount of suns etc), and maybe even some "magic cycles" that happen alongside (or sometimes replace) natural cycles like seasons and day/night, with their own effects?
7. You've said something about playing as procgen races in fort mode even in the first myth&magic update, provided they tick off a certain number of fort mode necessities (including digging), as some features aren't where they need to be yet (such as above-ground constructions for non-digging civilizations). Other than the digging, are there any other requirements you can think of off the top of your head, or is it pretty much just digging?
8. Right now creatures like hydras and ettins have 1 mind for all heads, and I think you've said you plan to support 1 mind per head, but would that apply to all kinds of multi-headed creature, or would some species and/or creatures have it one way and others the other way?
9a. Are "animated statues and figurines" planned? That is, magic that turns an arbitrary statue/figurine into a bronze-colossus-like creature made of "whatever the statue/figurine was made of", with the anatomy/body shape of the thing the statue is depicting, at the appropriate size of the statue/figurines representation of that thing. The dev notes mention automatons, but I'm not sure if that's quite the same thing (magic automatons are usually custom built to be automatons and aren't fully solid).
9b. A similar question goes for art/engravings (like an engraving of a troll just coming off of the wall, leaving the wall bare).
10. Will bronze colossi ever turn into statues of themselves upon death instead of the statue having a random subject, or is there some other plan in mind for them?
11. How do you think mind reading and/or short-term clairvoyance by reading intentions would work (assuming it's planned)? Wondering particularly about your thoughts on NPC's trying to read the mind/intentions of a player's adventurer.
12. Is it planned for creatures to be able to be eaten or swallowed whole by much larger ones? Like a dwarf being eaten by a dragon or other large enough beast, and maybe being rescuable if you get them out before they suffocate or get digested.
13. What about creatures fighting differently depending on the size and position of their opponent (kind of related to the above question I guess)? By this I mean something like a bronze colossus happily punching, wrestling and headbutting other massive beasts, but preferring to stomp on or kick puny dwarves, unless the dwarves are on a ledge or something and therefore easier to reach with the arms.
14. Regarding creature sizes, will it always be the case that their size is modeled only with volume? Apart from when they're real life creatures or just assumed to be of human proportions, it's often ambiguous whether something is meant to be tall and skinny, or wide and bulky, or really long.
15. The images shown for Steam with the new trade depo seem to imply that wagons no longer overlap with the depo, how does that work now? Will more space be necessary to have a functioning trade depo?
16. Many screens will now apparently no longer pause the game when brought up; will it be possible to set in a menu to pause automatically when opening these?
17. What are all the screens/interfaces/functionality that still remain to be completed for Fortress mode in the Premium update?
18. If the Steam release does well enough to accommodate it, would you consider hiring someone more experienced with optimization to help with that during the map rewrite? Or maybe bringing on volunteers (under NDA of course).
19. With the big map rewrite coming up, is threading or even GPU acceleration (like OpenCL, or whatever its successor is) that something you might try to implement in there, or at least architect the new code with potential for it in mind (so if you decide in the future that it's necessary, it wouldn't require another big rewrite)? Especially if you have help from someone more knowledgeable about threading (and GPU acceleration). In particular, I'm asking about pathfinding, temperatures, and liquid flow, as while I may be mistaken, "map rewrite" sounds like it involves rewriting those to an extent, and they happen to be some of the biggest FPS users.
Post by: clinodev on June 18, 2021, 08:49:58 am
17. Which screens/interfaces/functionality still remain to be completed for Fortress mode in the Premium update?
I'll try to come back in after work and try to answer some of these, but I'd just like to point out that Mr_Crabman has been sharing a great list along those lines (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/nyx3lt/steamdf_wip_34_walls_this_time_improved_thanks_to/h1qkyq7/) on various forums, and it'd probably be easiest just to add on to or comment upon it.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 18, 2021, 09:22:28 am
1. It's possible now using DFHack, and I don't expect the corresponding functionality to go away just because of a rewrite. Logic to flip the flag is really a separate issue that would be implemented when there's a perceived need for it.
2. It's been requested, and I think it's under consideration. Nothing is certain until it's been implemented, though.
:
5. Worlds that don't correspond to Earth's astronomical and/or "magical" environment would need adjustments. That's partially a different question than the one whether the Earth analogy should be improved (the temperature variation over the year is rather strange, for instance).
6. Bizarre worlds should be internally consistent. It's entirely possible magic world differently during the day than during the night, or during different seasons/sphere influence phases etc.
7. Digging is more or less required because that's how you get stone and metal, so it's the first of the requirements along that chain. That doesn't mean other requirements can't exist as well.
:
11. Reading the mind of the player is essentially impossible. I'd expect there would have to be some fudge to block it except in very specific situations (type quest to murder ruler and being interrogated by mage on guard before being let through, but nothing if there's no externally "visible" reason). However, even that becomes rather weird. It would also require the NPCs to have sufficiently much of a mind that there's something to read.
:
18. If it made obscenely well Toady may feel a pressure to bring in external help. However, the main reason for not bringing in external resources is that it would turn him into a manager rather than someone who does what he really wants to do. Obviously, the artist interaction serves as the dipping of a toe into the water, but it's still a completely different matter to bring in help to make a nice surface compared to have someone else messing around in the guts. I believe there are parts of the code Toady doesn't understand precisely because someone else was brought in to do them in the past.
19. It can also be noted that multiple threads don't speed things up if the calculations are bound by the rate at which data can be brought in from memory, and I believe there are indications DF is memory bound rather than CPU bound.
Map rewrite is about reorganizing the map data to allow for new info that doesn't fit in the current structure, as well as allowing for partitioning of is such that you only need to load data that's needed (examples of that are to load the surface but not the underlying geological layers in adventure mode most of the time, as well as having multiple locations loaded concurrently [portal functionality]). It should also support movement of geography (constructed and "natural", such as flying islands [as well as portals to such moving locations]). As far as I understand, pathfinding, etc. have to be adjusted to work with the new organization of the data, but that doesn't mean the logic they use would have to be changed: changes to the logic would be driven by ways to do it in a better way, and if map reorganization can present the data in a more efficient way it would help, of course. Pathfinding probably would need to "understand" things like portals, "moving terrain" (such as elevators), and minecart routes (for personnel transport) eventually, though, which means the map rewrite should take such things into account to allow for it.
Post by: voliol on June 18, 2021, 09:42:45 am
13. What about creatures fighting differently depending on the size and position of their opponent (kind of related to the above question I guess)? By this I mean something like a bronze colossus happily punching, wrestling and headbutting other massive beasts, but preferring to stomp on or kick puny dwarves, unless the dwarves are on a ledge or something and therefore easier to reach with the arms.
Quote from: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html, Combat flow
- Ability to jump up on and ride opponents if they are large enough (can happen to you too of course)
- Not being able to hit a giant in the head, hitting a dragon in the head as a reaction when it attempts to bite
Post by: Mr Crabman on June 18, 2021, 11:16:40 am
It can also be noted that multiple threads don't speed things up if the calculations are bound by the rate at which data can be brought in from memory, and I believe there are indications DF is memory bound rather than CPU bound.
Maybe so, though I've heard some mention of people measuring cache misses with external software and there not really being a whole lot many from DF, and I myself have noticed the core running DF is often at 100% (as have others), so it's CPU bound at least some of the time, to some extent. Incidentally, threading also means a bit more cache memory anyway, since L1 and L2 are locked to individual cores (so you get more slightly more fast memory to work with), and so you can work on expensive calculations with smaller amounts of data, while other threads are waiting for their large amounts of data to come in.
And while I'm no expert on the matter, it seems like if you could keep as much data in the VRAM as possible (minimizing the transfer back and forth between it and the regular RAM), then that may free up more cache and memory bandwidth for other calculations in the CPU at the same time (aside from the insane parallel power of the GPU of course).
Post by: DwarfStar on June 18, 2021, 02:37:58 pm
As far as VRAM goes, DF probably only uses graphics hardware for the obvious purpose of rendering. So the only data needed in VRAM is the sprites and some buffers telling where to draw them, what color and blending mode. It’s possible to offload game logic processes onto graphics hardware, but that requires even more deep rewrites than I mentioned above. Even then, getting the data on and off of VRAM is a hassle. There’d usually be no reason to put game logic data in VRAM unless you were processing it there.
Post by: Mr Crabman on June 18, 2021, 05:00:05 pm
As far as VRAM goes, DF probably only uses graphics hardware for the obvious purpose of rendering. So the only data needed in VRAM is the sprites and some buffers telling where to draw them, what color and blending mode. It’s possible to offload game logic processes onto graphics hardware, but that requires even more deep rewrites than I mentioned above. Even then, getting the data on and off of VRAM is a hassle. There’d usually be no reason to put game logic data in VRAM unless you were processing it there.
Given that the Steam page lists a simple GPU requirement, I think even if it doesn't now (not sure if it's just another thread, or actual GPU use), it will indeed use it for rendering soon.
Yes, certainly just keeping the game data in VRAM would be pointless (detrimental even), but my idea was indeed to process the data there; the kind of processing that GPU's are well suited to, like temperatures, fluid flow, and also according to some people, pathfinding?
Might be worth mentioning the processing order of the game loop right now, which Toady revealed in an interview 2 years ago (https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/343859/QA_Dissecting_the_development_of_Dwarf_Fortress_with_creator_Tarn_Adams.php (https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/343859/QA_Dissecting_the_development_of_Dwarf_Fortress_with_creator_Tarn_Adams.php)), as it probably has implications/hints for what data each part of the processing logic is assuming is already done:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: DwarfStar on June 18, 2021, 08:48:39 pm
The main thing it does to me is to underscore what a huge amount of work it would be to multithread DF. Each of those subsystems would have to be significantly revised. The data structures would need to be able to absorb new calculations at any time, possibly while another system is querying it. Which by the way would slow the whole thing down on single processor systems. Using the GPU is even harder because you have to translate the code to shader language and figure out how to get good throughout, something the CPU kind of takes care of for you. Oh, and then you get bugs that only affect some graphics cards. When you’re done, it’s just the one system that’s now optimized…so one out of about a dozen listed in that article.
Granted, if you really liked to do huge fluid projects, just having the fluid sim super optimized might seem worth the effort. But lots of people would have different priorities.
Post by: Schmaven on June 18, 2021, 11:43:28 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 19, 2021, 03:20:24 am
I just remembered there was a blind DF player on the forum a couple of years back. How will the change to tiles for the character set affect the ability to translate the display into sound? Has any thought gone into that, and, if so, has any support been thought of?
Post by: Bumber on June 21, 2021, 01:36:04 am
It looks like it checks if ((x / 48) * 48) < 0 || ((x / 48) * 48) >= map_size_in_x_tiles. (It might also be (x - x%48) in your code.)
This check will succeed for values of x as low as -47. Same for the y check. The checks should probably be using the regular x and y coordinates.
There's a check inside a loop that will reject any index that would be outside of the array of a tree struct, though an incorrect result (instead of NULL) could be returned if the value ((tree_dim_x / 2) - plant_x%48) + x%48) is somehow >= 0 and < tree_dim_x for a tree. This is all dependent on a negative value somehow being passed to the function, of course.
Post by: voliol on June 21, 2021, 03:09:46 am
Blind people probably don’t have much of an interest in fancy tiles, so I imagine they will opt out and continue playing in ascii mode. It has me wondering though, do you know if they used TEXT/console mode or the standard 2D printing mode? The latter is technically tile-based already so a program capable of reading it should be expandable to include fancier tiles (though I imagine the layering would complicate things), while TEXT mode might be endangered if DF doesn’t make it natively to Linux and Mac post-Premium.
I just remembered there was a blind DF player on the forum a couple of years back. How will the change to tiles for the character set affect the ability to translate the display into sound? Has any thought gone into that, and, if so, has any support been thought of?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 21, 2021, 06:56:27 am
It might also be possible to link tiles to the characters they depict (and I'd guess Unicode or something similar would be required as soon as Toady starts to make use of the freedom from the CP437 cramped restrictions and introduce new tiles), and then use a DFHack Lua script to get the tile, then the translation, and feed that to the audio generation SW (somehow).
Post by: Mr Crabman on June 21, 2021, 02:49:45 pm
If so, what extent would this be going to/how far indepth would this be? Like, evolving/splitting over time between cultures, partial merging via loanwords or 2 cultures being in close proximity all the time, creatures not understanding some languages but "translators" or well-traveled ones being multi-lingual?
And for the contents of the languages themselves, would generating them involve low level details to make them seem natural/not generated, like this?:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just wondering how far this would go (if this stuff isn't planned already I'll definitely post a suggestion for it, along with some links to good sources people use for making conlangs).
The main thing it does to me is to underscore what a huge amount of work it would be to multithread DF. Each of those subsystems would have to be significantly revised.
Well, I may be mistaken, but I don't think all of them would need substantial revision (as most of the problem comes from a select few systems), and quite a few of them ARE being revised anyway in the big map rewrite, and others are slated to be revised later, so even if it's not done right away, if each system being rewritten is written with the potential of threading later in mind (so that it doesn't require a big rewrite when the time comes) that could be done at some point, assuming that doesn't sacrifice performance in the meantime, which I'm not sure it would.
Which by the way would slow the whole thing down on single processor systems.
Does anyone even use single processor systems anymore, and whatever tiny fraction does, how many will keep doing so as technology marches on and CPU's get more cores?
Using the GPU is even harder because you have to translate the code to shader language and figure out how to get good throughout, something the CPU kind of takes care of for you. Oh, and then you get bugs that only affect some graphics cards.
I agree, the GPU is a big step up in difficulty, which is why it would probably be best to get help with that if it was to be done at all.
When you’re done, it’s just the one system that’s now optimized…so one out of about a dozen listed in that article.
Sure, but only a handful of them really need optimizing, as a lot of performance issues seem to stem from a few bottlenecks; these "big ticket items" at the moment (maybe future updates will bring in new "big problems"), in no particular order of importance, are pathfinding, temperatures, fluid flow (in the forts that make use of fluids or have rivers/waterfalls), and whatever the problem is with the item vector (which I've heard is partially about temperature checks on each item).
Post by: voliol on June 21, 2021, 03:44:20 pm
Quote from: FotF May/June 2018
Quote[...]Will language be expanded on like music and such. Being randomly generated and having to be taught/learned? It be interesting to see if one language rises to the top of the heap to become that worlds version of 'common' Or if the myth/history generate makes a single world language that was created by a god for the people to use. Also maybe species with langagues that can't be spoken or understood by others do some some biological reasion.[...]Yeah. I'm not sure *when*, but I'm looking forward to it and it's an earlier non-DF interest of mine.
Quote from: FotF November 2018
We're hoping to do a lot with language at some point, but it's always ended up being a lower priority compared to other features. The notes are pretty extensive at this point, but that's meaningless if we don't work on it.
Quote from: FotF September 2019
QuoteHave you seen the "Dwaven Language Codifier" here ? And if yes, what are your thoughts about it ?Yeah, I've seen it! I think it's a cool project.
(http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.0)
Since some of the analysis applies to all the languages (since they are underspecified but have a lot of similar characteristics), it's important to note that we're going to end up having to blow a lot of stuff up with procgen, if we can get it to work. Though I've been wanting to do that for years and haven't had time. And as with the myth stuff vs. the creature types etc., I really don't know precisely what 'default' is going to mean, or what sorts of vanilla language notions will remain intact. Presumably, with the editor examples etc., there might even be a more and more fixed version of things.
Post by: AliceRed on June 22, 2021, 12:01:16 am
Post by: Gtyx1 on June 23, 2021, 03:10:03 am
2. Regarding custom made companions:
A. Are companions created from the starting screen considered a separate faction or something? Im wondering because they're loyal to you specifically and will even turn on other companions if you attack them.
B. Also what do the "Respects you" "Highly Loyal" and "Loves You" traits do to your companions and how they act?
3. How wide is the scope of pets that can be spawned by divination dice? Because I've had pets spawn that weren't even Tameable creatures. Is it any creatures with the Large creature tag? Could i theoretically roll until i get a Night Creature or Angel as a pet?
Post by: leastannoyingman on June 23, 2021, 05:50:14 am
Relevant thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/o4ob7q/ive_done_it_again_i_forgot_to_turn_autosaves_on/
Post by: Mr Crabman on June 23, 2021, 06:41:18 am
Would these actually work in these cases (and if so, what do they do?), or is it just a matter of them being ignored by the token parser? Another way of asking I guess, is which of these "special" creature effect syndrome tokens actually make use of `ABRUPT`, `PEAK`, and `SIZE_DILUTES` (and for that matter, `SEV`)?: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Syndrome#Special_Effects
2. How would you handle the possibility/risk of making Steam achievements that later become obsolete or nonsensical/impossible to achieve due to design/mechanical changes in updates?
3. Do you think that, if the Bay12 forums become very saturated with new players, it may become a problem to continue FotF as you do now, and to handle reading the Suggestions forum? If so, what solutions would you have in mind? (for example, for suggestions might you make more subforums for different types of suggestion?)
4. Why are there only mammal and reptile werebeasts? Was this a design decision, or just about not having time or interest to manually hardcode loads of bird and insect werebeasts and instead waiting for them to be generatable?
5. How do you manage doing bugfix updates/patches for current versions, while still working on large changes that are not ready to be released to the public (that is, getting the bugfixes/patches in both the release, and in the unreleased version)? I only ask because I wonder how that's possible to practically manage without using a version control system or branches (assuming that hasn't changed).
6. Related to the last thing, how do you keep track of what changes you have made to the codebase and to features?
Have you considered enabling autosave and backups by default on the Steam version?
My guess would be that he'll enable autosave just because of the user friendliness of it (to avoid what happened in that thread), but probably not automatic backups, so as to encourage taking things as they come without rolling back whenever things start to go south (and also because they'd suck up the hard-drive space, which isn't what you want the default settings to do).
Post by: leastannoyingman on June 23, 2021, 06:48:52 am
and also because they'd suck up the hard-drive space, which isn't what you want the default settings to doAn option to automatically delete old backups would come in handy then.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 24, 2021, 07:48:55 am
2. How would you handle the possibility/risk of making Steam achievements that later become obsolete or nonsensical/impossible to achieve due to design/mechanical changes in updates?
Maybe they'd just be meta-achievements than anything in game consequetial or over-intrusive.
Complete the tutorial, embark for the first time, play for 1000 hours probably.
4. Why are there only mammal and reptile werebeasts? Was this a design decision, or just about not having time or interest to manually hardcode loads of bird and insect werebeasts and instead waiting for them to be generatable?
Probably for ease of handling additional limbs (which Toady wants to approach more into the Magic or future arcs, in dealing with mutative effects, growing a extra arm and such due to magical exposure etc.) that make avian or spindly invertibrate creatures hard to pull off without keeping a human profile (and no great increase to size), as well as the additional abilities they could hold.
A moat might tide off a were-zebra (maybe not were-hippopotamus) but a were-octopus would probably building destroy all your aquatic floodgates into your fort as a 8 armed menace, GCS web throwers are hard enough, as are flying enemies difficult to deal with. At least having additional tags would probably mean they would be a rarer caste, which casts shadows over creatures such as minotaurs not being a challenge by comparison.
5. How do you manage doing bugfix updates/patches for current versions, while still working on large changes that are not ready to be released to the public (that is, getting the bugfixes/patches in both the release, and in the unreleased version)? I only ask because I wonder how that's possible to practically manage without using a version control system or branches (assuming that hasn't changed).
6. Related to the last thing, how do you keep track of what changes you have made to the codebase and to features?
Last i remember on a similar set of questions, the Tarn brothers have private note-lists of suggestions to draw upon at a later date and also the public development log. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) I dont think its a excel spreadsheet or anything a technical as that.
I couldnt possibly speculate on that, DF can already be translated into github files (infact quite a lot of it being retrieved is central to the DFhack project), but maybe there's a alternative arrangement in place.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 24, 2021, 09:17:58 pm
Post by: Putnam on June 24, 2021, 10:40:51 pm
Given that adventurers are asexual, shouldn’t unicorns be friendly towards them?
1. adventurers aren't asexual, they explicitly have a special orientation flag set that AFAIK says "I don't have an orientation", which no other units/hist figs do
2. the weird unicorn virgin stuff isn't in the game, so this is kinda a suggestion anyway
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 25, 2021, 01:49:26 am
Other universes/memes have no relevance to DF. Even if some of it does come across in fan works.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 25, 2021, 05:28:41 am
Given that adventurers are asexual, shouldn’t unicorns be friendly towards them?
Like others have said, there's no recognition of IRL mythos explicitly, nor does the unicorn horn have magic properties (animal sacredness and special parts are things put aside for future arcs) it just hurts a lot to be gored by one, and makes very high quality materials out of its cadaver & bones.
If you want adventurer immunity to unicorns and any other sort of natural creature (not counting many kinds of underground or supernatural life), you can just swear fealty to a elven nation's hearth, and it'll render you immune as a member of their civ encompassing their natural animal protection.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 28, 2021, 06:22:24 am
Is it intentional that elven visitors almost exclusively are members of performance troupes (or villains)? Is it something in elven culture that causes its members to join troupes rather than strike out on their own (and thus sometimes be available for recruitment, as performance troupe recruitment is bugged)?
Edit: In response to Shonai_Dweller's post below: The bug report is https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11001, although the actual question is about why elves are almost exclusive to performance troupes. The fact that they're bugged was added as context for why I even care. I expect bugs to be fixed when they get fixed, not when Toady gets bugged about them.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2021, 09:07:54 am
Please link to bugs on the tracker. Nothing more annoying than saying "Hey, Toady, when are you going to fix that bug? You know, the one with elves!" As though he'll have any idea what you're talking about.
Is it intentional that elven visitors almost exclusively are members of performance troupes (or villains)? Is it something in elven culture that causes its members to join troupes rather than strike out on their own (and thus sometimes be available for recruitment, as performance troupe recruitment is bugged)?
Post by: recon1o6 on June 28, 2021, 01:51:11 pm
This actually came up in smallhands recently over in community fort. For story reasons I was trying to dispose of a slab. I ended up having to dig a room and drop the room into magma to throw the slab into it and even then its not gone, only "hidden" until reclaim/adventure mode
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 28, 2021, 03:01:03 pm
Will we ever be able to destroy artifacts? This could be useful for some more world events eg destroying a holy relic will cause the adventurer or fortress to be excommunicated, destroying a demon slab could banish them or make the goblins turn on their ruler, a slab with life and death being broken could cause those who read from it to die from a curse/lose their undead
This actually came up in smallhands recently over in community fort. For story reasons I was trying to dispose of a slab. I ended up having to dig a room and drop the room into magma to throw the slab into it and even then its not gone, only "hidden" until reclaim/adventure mode
Lime-green questions as always please, try not to veer too much into suggestions but i do think there have been some artifact-destruction centric narratives in Threetoes bay12 stories, and also there's obviously artifacts that aren't actually artifact quality, like books & slayer-weapons.
Eventually the question might shift from "artifact quality indestructability" to "items of interest". Thus far the only way to remove a artifact is to chuck it down a bottomless chasm if i remember correctly or let it be stolen/steal it yourself to hide it somewhere else like in the wilderness thanks to keas.
Post by: voliol on June 28, 2021, 03:10:04 pm
Will we ever be able to destroy artifacts? This could be useful for some more world events eg destroying a holy relic will cause the adventurer or fortress to be excommunicated, destroying a demon slab could banish them or make the goblins turn on their ruler, a slab with life and death being broken could cause those who read from it to die from a curse/lose their undeadConsidering how influential the Lord of the Rings is to the fantasy genre in general, and to a game called Dwarf Fortress especially, I have a hard time seeing its premise would not be reproducible in some future version of the game. Also, many non-mood artifacts found in the game (holy relics, named weapons, original books) are destructible already.
Post by: Pillbo on June 28, 2021, 05:43:38 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 29, 2021, 02:07:51 am
Will we ever be able to destroy artifacts? This could be useful for some more world events eg destroying a holy relic will cause the adventurer or fortress to be excommunicated, destroying a demon slab could banish them or make the goblins turn on their ruler, a slab with life and death being broken could cause those who read from it to die from a curse/lose their undeadI thought both atom smashing and SMR annihilation destroyed artifacts?
:
As others have mentioned, magic means to destroy magic items would make sense post Myth & Magic.
Post by: Bumber on June 29, 2021, 06:43:30 am
I thought both atom smashing and SMR annihilation destroyed artifacts?
Pretty sure they reappear in a random spot if you retire and unretire/visit the site.
Post by: recon1o6 on June 29, 2021, 11:41:55 am
Will we ever be able to destroy artifacts? This could be useful for some more world events eg destroying a holy relic will cause the adventurer or fortress to be excommunicated, destroying a demon slab could banish them or make the goblins turn on their ruler, a slab with life and death being broken could cause those who read from it to die from a curse/lose their undeadI thought both atom smashing and SMR annihilation destroyed artifacts?
:
As others have mentioned, magic means to destroy magic items would make sense post Myth & Magic.
Nope, they get a hidden flag that makes them respawn when reclaiming/unretire+retire/adventure mode
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2021, 09:59:59 am
What exactly is a WORSHIP_HF token? i noticed it appear in speech raws dialogue for temples when describing the inhouse patron god of a temple when being accepted into it (though i've never actually played a temple induction myself, usually there's nobody around to talk to, to take a quest from) and a few select interesting nuggets about it being connected to demon-leaders/diplomats/trade-liason foolery when used for position-code mainly based on past versions and a little bit of present version tinkering.
I mean what i *think* i've got from my results so far is that its meant to be any sort of dedicated role for gods/pretenders, but its hard to tell because only the vaguest fringes of it is editable from entity_default on a dark-fortress which has the criteria of a living physical "pretender".
Post by: Putnam on June 30, 2021, 07:53:25 pm
Post by: Mr Crabman on July 01, 2021, 02:35:01 am
2. How many args can be given/used in `APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION`? `BODY_DETAIL_PLANS` only take a maximum of 5 it seems, so I was wondering if these also have a hardcoded limit (I can tell it's at least 6, but might be more).
3. Also, about the special `|` character being used to separate arguments in `APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION` so that one `!ARG` can represent multiple arguments, can there be more than 2 arguments in this way, and if so, is there a maximum or is it arbitrary? Such as `5|0|8`?
4. How does `CTAG` and it's conditional behavior on a single token interact with the above `|` behavior? Can it only work if `!ARG1` is not actually multiple arguments, or would it just pick the first one out of the bunch?
5. About `BODY_DETAIL_PLAN` objects and giving "coverage" for some relations, I've also seen coverages given for positions, and sometimes I see coverages given and other times I don't (even for relations like `BELOW`); which relations/positions actually require a coverage value, and do any take it optionally? What's the situation there with layer coverages?
6. In the `BODY_DETAIL_PLAN` token `BP_LAYERS`, apparently you can only define 5 "ARG" tokens (ie up to `ARG5`), but you can also mix in specific tissues like so:
Code: [Select]
[BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:HORN:ARG4:2:HORN:2]My question is, can you add more than 5 tissues using `BP_LAYERS`, if in addition to the `ARG1`-`ARG5` tissues, you also add in other specific tissues? Or is it hardcoded to 5 tissues maximum even then? Like, would something like this be possible?:
Code: [Select]
[BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:HORN:ARG5:2:HEART:2:ARG4:2:EYE:2:ARG3:2:HORN:2:ARG2:2:ARG1:2]7. About the "thickness" of each tissue (the number given after each tissue argument); is this relative or absolute, and how high can it go? I get the impression from the numbers that it's a percentage (ie a percentage of how much that tissue takes up of that body part), but I'm unsure, because it doesn't always add up to 100:
Code: [Select]
[BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:TUSK:IVORY:100]
[BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:NOSE:ARG5:4:ARG1:1]8. Can you define the same tissue more than one time in a single `BP_LAYERS`? Like this:
Code: [Select]
[BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:HORN:ARG4:2:HORN:2:ARG4]9. In the `TISSUE_LAYER` token in some creature tokens, you see the likes of:
Code: [Select]
[TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:HAIR:NORMAL]]What is the "NORMAL"? Usually in that place there's a position or relation token, but I have no idea what to make of this one/what it means.
Post by: Toady One on July 01, 2021, 07:05:42 pm
Quote from: Inarius
Do you feel concerned/worried by the collapse in forum's activity ? (activity divided by 3 - 6 in 7 years depending on what you are looking at)
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8284523#msg8284523
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8284539#msg8284539
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8284545#msg8284545
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8284815#msg8284815
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8285142#msg8285142
Yeah, not particular worried, for the reasons mentioned, and the game itself is still being played, ha ha, as far as I can tell.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
Is it true that the leftwards and rightwards triangle will be used as delimiters for magical items?
It used to be that way, in the few effects we had on artifacts before the initial release. The next introduction of magic will be more complicated, and the symbols might end up getting that way too, but it seems fine to do it the old way if it's sufficient.
Quote from: Afghani84
Are there any plans regarding simple terraforming, i.e. filling up single tiles with dirt or being able to rebuild ramps? If so, do you have an idea where it fits in the timeline?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8285141#msg8285141
PatrikLundell's answer about covers it!
Quote from: GumNut
Are the changes for steam release fully compatible with macros? Are there any future plans for the macro feature or is it considered finished?
I haven't changed how it works, and I don't currently expect any issues, once we have keyboard support back up in places. The notion of cursors feels a bit odd - most people won't want to see them most places, and I'm not sure if that'll be enabled through some option or what yet, but once it is, it should be compatible with macros. I haven't planned new stuff for it at this point.
Quote from: ror6ax
Aside from being technically ambitious task, have you considered what gameplay purpose will Myth and Magic serve? As a player, would it make a considerable difference for me to play a procgen race with procgen magic system as opposed to playing the hardcoded one?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8285853#msg8285853
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8285934#msg8285934
I suppose it depends on what you mean by gameplay? I mean, I think for most definitions there'll be a considerable difference, especially since the hardcoded dwarves don't have any magic at all currently, nor do their gods do anything besides cursing vandals (in fort mode), nor do what little myths they have mean anything at all. So strictly mechanically speaking, the shape of the game challenges and approaches should be pretty different from world to world. If we allow emergent narrative and player story formation under the umbrella of gameplay, then I think it's even more clear. If by hardcoded, you're talking about a version that includes myths and magic of some expanded form, then it depends on how complicated the hardcoded stuff is, but it sort of loops back around to the same thing.
Quote from: squamous
1. Even if multistory siege weapons are off the table, what sort of siege machines might be available, and how moddable will that whole system be? Will it be possible to create entirely custom siege weapons/ammunition for example? Would that extend to wagons?
2. Will the steam version of the game have an option to play the game in ascii, or will it be required to use the graphics pack?
3. Some mods come with the actual game's .exe for ease of installation, effectively functioning as an "independent" game you can install like the default one, how would mods like that function on the steam workshop if at all?
4. Will container items like backpacks and quivers become moddable before or after the Big Wait?
5. Will stuff like armor and weapons eventually become as granular as instruments? Maybe not in the near future, but at some point?
6. I believe it was discussed before that "normal" DF wouldn't feature technology past a certain level, but what sort of anachronisms do you think might be added as potential tools for NPCs to discover/develop?
7. What traits influence the odds of an NPC becoming an "adventurer" ie warrior/mercenary/monster slayer in worldgen? Violence and excitement-seeking maybe, but is there anything else?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8285979#msg8285979
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8285983#msg8285983
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8286091#msg8286091
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8286119#msg8286119
1. For the army release? I'm not sure that'll be the focus in the end, since they are pretty useless against the fort, and the whole moving fortress/trap improvement thing is more of a map topic. First we'll need to make the attacking armies more effective before giving new ways to kill them ha ha. But we'll see. When I'm actually working on making attacking armies more effective, a few extra things might happen.
2. There'll be a Classic branch, I think, at the minimum - this separation may be required by Steam due to how the Classic game will be distributed on Bay 12, though I'm not sure on the particulars. Doing a switch on-the-fly in the default game would also be cool, and doesn't feel super hard, but it's an extra step. It does just tie into all the mod support stuff though.
3. I have no idea how that sort of thing works on workshop, or what workshop is capable of in terms of overwriting/changing files. But yeah, if I'm limited to a mod folder they'll have to operate through Classic or through some sort of local files fiddling.
4. It hasn't been on my radar!
5. That was the plan, yeah, for most items, to have components based on material and functional differences. No idea how that's going to go timelinewise.
6. It's a cutoff, so there weren't really plans for anachronisms except by accident. However, magic does tend to give rise to analogues to future stuff, when we think to support it, and I imagine that'll grow slowly with the various effects.
7. I think in world gen, this might predate them having full personalities, some of them -- we can only track those for a portion of the historical figures for data reasons. If they are an unimportant mercenary and survive worldgen to get a fully realized character for play, it puts their personality on based on that. Spies and merchants get curiosity bonuses, while hunters get excitement bonuses, and monster hunters/snatcher/thieves/mercenaries get both. I think the reason for that odd choice of facets was related to getting them to join you as a player adventurer.
Quote from: George_Chickens
Regarding development, is there an order of things planned before the Big Waittm? Can we expect adventure mode intrigues to be expanded and finished before the Big Waittm?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8286008#msg8286008
Yeah, Shonai_Dweller's correct, and the villain section mentioned in their reply includes the adventure mode intrigue stuff.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Just wondering if you've given any thought to what a tutorial might look like for Steam. Any notes or simply 'thinking out loud' ideas?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8287074#msg8287074
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8287076#msg8287076
Yeah, it hasn't changed much since the link in Shonai_Dweller's reply, since it makes sense to have the UI more or less in place before trying to tutorialize it, but we have been leaning more toward in game guides/tutorialish goals that work for a regular fort rather than strict separate tutorial maps. So if you want them, it can have a few basic tips about getting mining and bedrooms and things started, and then a few more that pop up if the fort is getting booze-deficient, or if you've mined your first gems, and so on. I remember reading a post-mortem for Stellaris along these lines that made some sense to me there. But it's hard to do! The context sensitive detection stuff can get really messy. But it's better than having a separate tutorial scenario that falls apart because there are too many moving parts, or which doesn't connect to a playable world even if the player has gotten attached to the fort.
Quote from: hamurlik
Do you have any way to protect the steam version of dwarf fortress from piracy? I assume that virtually all the game files from the normal, ascii version, stay on the steam version, but with new ui and tileset files; creative modders could try to integrate the stuff from steam version into the ascii version for free using someone else's copy of the game; does the steam version require steam to play, or you can just copy the files from your steam copy to share with other people, like with older games released on steam, where steam is just the "bootloader"?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8287241#msg8287241
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8287291#msg8287291
Yeah, we aren't going to try anything draconian, since it all gets cracked anyway. People like having games on Steam, and that's probably enough to keep us going.
Quote from: Rafal99
Toady, any plans for sorting options in the new Trade Screen? Especially sorting by item value could be very useful.
I just added a little sort button that I used in the new version of the units screen, which should be up on the Steam news around the time this gets posted - so there's some hope of that getting back around to places.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1. Will the map rewrite make it possible for tiles to stop being considered "on the surface/outdoors" forever if exposed once to the sky?
2. Will it be possible to engrave each side of a wall separately?
3. There are plans for siegers (presumably ones armed with mining tools) to be able to dig through tiles, but will some strong and/or big creatures/monsters be able to dig through tiles and smash through constructions without the use of tools?
4. What sort of limits if any (other than the obvious "no digging through adamantine/slade"), do you imagine instituting for digging siegers (or monsters) for balance purposes?
5. Different places in the real world have different durations of seasons (and in the southern hemisphere they are in reverse order), and AFAIK some places don't experience the familiar 4 seasons but instead have a different set, is this something that is planned eventually? Similar question goes for durations of day and night depending on location.
6. Speaking of seasons (and day/night cycles), does the "list of things to have in the game one day" include more bizarre/random/high magic worlds taking into account different astronomy (amount of suns etc), and maybe even some "magic cycles" that happen alongside (or sometimes replace) natural cycles like seasons and day/night, with their own effects?
7. You've said something about playing as procgen races in fort mode even in the first myth&magic update, provided they tick off a certain number of fort mode necessities (including digging), as some features aren't where they need to be yet (such as above-ground constructions for non-digging civilizations). Other than the digging, are there any other requirements you can think of off the top of your head, or is it pretty much just digging?
8. Right now creatures like hydras and ettins have 1 mind for all heads, and I think you've said you plan to support 1 mind per head, but would that apply to all kinds of multi-headed creature, or would some species and/or creatures have it one way and others the other way?
9a. Are "animated statues and figurines" planned? That is, magic that turns an arbitrary statue/figurine into a bronze-colossus-like creature made of "whatever the statue/figurine was made of", with the anatomy/body shape of the thing the statue is depicting, at the appropriate size of the statue/figurines representation of that thing. The dev notes mention automatons, but I'm not sure if that's quite the same thing (magic automatons are usually custom built to be automatons and aren't fully solid).
9b. A similar question goes for art/engravings (like an engraving of a troll just coming off of the wall, leaving the wall bare).
10. Will bronze colossi ever turn into statues of themselves upon death instead of the statue having a random subject, or is there some other plan in mind for them?
11. How do you think mind reading and/or short-term clairvoyance by reading intentions would work (assuming it's planned)? Wondering particularly about your thoughts on NPC's trying to read the mind/intentions of a player's adventurer.
12. Is it planned for creatures to be able to be eaten or swallowed whole by much larger ones? Like a dwarf being eaten by a dragon or other large enough beast, and maybe being rescuable if you get them out before they suffocate or get digested.
13. What about creatures fighting differently depending on the size and position of their opponent (kind of related to the above question I guess)? By this I mean something like a bronze colossus happily punching, wrestling and headbutting other massive beasts, but preferring to stomp on or kick puny dwarves, unless the dwarves are on a ledge or something and therefore easier to reach with the arms.
14. Regarding creature sizes, will it always be the case that their size is modeled only with volume? Apart from when they're real life creatures or just assumed to be of human proportions, it's often ambiguous whether something is meant to be tall and skinny, or wide and bulky, or really long.
15. The images shown for Steam with the new trade depo seem to imply that wagons no longer overlap with the depo, how does that work now? Will more space be necessary to have a functioning trade depo?
16. Many screens will now apparently no longer pause the game when brought up; will it be possible to set in a menu to pause automatically when opening these?
17. Which screens/interfaces/functionality still remain to be completed for Fortress mode in the Premium update?
18. If the Steam release does well enough to accommodate it, would you consider hiring someone more experienced with optimization to help with that during the map rewrite? Or maybe bringing on volunteers (under NDA of course).
19. With the big map rewrite coming up, is threading or even GPU acceleration (like OpenCL, or whatever its successor is) that something you might try to implement in there, or at least architect the new code with potential for it in mind (so if you decide in the future that it's necessary, it wouldn't require another big rewrite)? Especially if you have help from someone more knowledgeable about threading (and GPU acceleration). In particular, I'm asking about pathfinding, temperatures, and liquid flow, as while I may be mistaken, "map rewrite" sounds like it involves rewriting those to an extent, and they happen to be some of the biggest FPS users.
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8288408#msg8288408
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8288415#msg8288415
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8288418#msg8288418
Mr_Crabman (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8288437#msg8288437
DwarfStar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8288484#msg8288484
Mr_Crabman (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8288514#msg8288514
DwarfStar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8288549#msg8288549
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8288573#msg8288573
19 questions (actually 36 or something counting the other posts and subparts etc.) is a lot! Please try to narrow to your favorites. You've asked about as much as everybody else combined this month.
The replies covered 1, 2, 13, 18, 19, closely enough anyway.
3. It's possible. Big creatures are sometimes the least interesting attacks because they just end up milling around.
4. It's not clear yet, but they should likely be slower and not omniscient -- it would be cool if they could dig in an informed fashion, but without knowing where everything is.
5. We already have this nominally with the wet/dry season, etc. Though it isn't really respected that well, or interesting.
6. Yep.
7. There are things like not setting everything on fire and etc. that'll probably cause issues until the game understands which materials and environments people would prefer to live in. Short life spans may also be bad, or weird ways of coming into the world.
8. Could certainly support both ways. Some argue with themselves more than others traditionally I think.
9a. It has come up! To have a creature be the same shape as another but use different materials takes a bit of doing, but that's just the kind of thing we're hoping to support more generally, for different situations.
9b. There are lots of variations on the theme of course. I don't recall if this specifically has come up, but it's well into suggestions territory at that point!
10. It just hasn't been super important - the size/shape is all wrong of course, but linking up stuff like that in the txt files is a pain, especially in isolation.
11. Ha ha, yeah, reading the player's mind is quite difficult! Stuff can be managed through either really short-term stuff like combat action prediction, or by giving abstract minuses to conversations/lie attempts etc. They could also dip into goals you've given your subordinates, and other information like that which you'd have to know, though of course that can get complicated.
12. Have considered this because it is in NetHack ha ha. We also had it for a monster in Dragslay if I recollect, but it was easier there. Guess it'd be a new form of inventory or wrestling, though we just haven't gotten into it.
14. It would be nice, but it's tricky, and of dubious value, until it's not, which has come up a few times as I recollect.
15. They don't need more space in a sense because you've always had to have a route for wagons to roll up to the depot. But you can't have a drawbridge right there next to it now.
16. That's a reasonable suggestion.
17. I think your list pretty much covers it! The spritework item there covers a lot of course. I also need to do some more item/unit/building view tab work as the information hub comes together - most of the unit sheet tabs are empty right now because we haven't done the relevant sections of the info hub.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
I just remembered there was a blind DF player on the forum a couple of years back. How will the change to tiles for the character set affect the ability to translate the display into sound? Has any thought gone into that, and, if so, has any support been thought of?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8289033#msg8289033
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8289070#msg8289070
While the addition of graphical tiles has accessibility benefits for a lot of people, I don't think it would help the player in question. Tiles are more complicated than CP437 characters of course. Classic should operate on a single grid, in any case, so there's still some hope of having that be readable.
Quote from: Bumber
I've been looking through the disassembly of a function that returns a plant at an x, y, z coordinate. (Looks like it's called by tree chopping and rendering code, among others.)
It looks like it checks if ((x / 48) * 48) < 0 || ((x / 48) * 48) >= map_size_in_x_tiles. (It might also be (x - x%48) in your code.)
This check will succeed for values of x as low as -47. Same for the y check. The checks should probably be using the regular x and y coordinates.
There's a check inside a loop that will reject any index that would be outside of the array of a tree struct, though an incorrect result (instead of NULL) could be returned if the value ((tree_dim_x / 2) - plant_x%48) + x%48) is somehow >= 0 and < tree_dim_x for a tree. This is all dependent on a negative value somehow being passed to the function, of course.
I think I found the one. Generally it won't get negative values since it's being fed tile coordinates, though it would be wiser to not assume that, yeah.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
Do you have any plans to do something like procedurally generated languages/conlangs?
If so, what extent would this be going to/how far indepth would this be? Like, evolving/splitting over time between cultures, partial merging via loanwords or 2 cultures being in close proximity all the time, creatures not understanding some languages but "translators" or well-traveled ones being multi-lingual?
And for the contents of the languages themselves, would generating them involve low level details to make them seem natural/not generated, like this?:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just wondering how far this would go (if this stuff isn't planned already I'll definitely post a suggestion for it, along with some links to good sources people use for making conlangs).
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8289168#msg8289168
I studied linguistics for a few years in college and have at least one conlang book I remember. It's always been on the radar, before DF was even a thing, and I've wanted to go as deep as I can, as usual, ha ha. But it has never felt like the right time. Along with the procedural games and a few other things, where there has been a lot of prep but little actual movement. But hopefully one day it'll come along.
Quote from: AliceRed
You've mentioned plans for the siege rework before the big wait including ways for invaders to get through walls, like digging or breaking them down. Are there similar plans to make monsters like Giants or FBs have similar capability?
I've always wanted to make them more troublesome, though they do have a lot more gravity with the myth/magic stuff than normal sieges do. But fun things may happen. It is possible. Generally, the large monsters should be able to do larger things. Just squishing entire bodies, or even groups of dwarves all at once. Squish.
Quote from: Gtyx1
1. Might be a Dumb question, but are pebbles only able to be formed from the specific materials listed in the stone layers or can pebbles be of any material so long as its stone? (I.E native copper, cinnabar, pyrite)
2. Regarding custom made companions:
A. Are companions created from the starting screen considered a separate faction or something? Im wondering because they're loyal to you specifically and will even turn on other companions if you attack them.
B. Also what do the "Respects you" "Highly Loyal" and "Loves You" traits do to your companions and how they act?
3. How wide is the scope of pets that can be spawned by divination dice? Because I've had pets spawn that weren't even Tameable creatures. Is it any creatures with the Large creature tag? Could i theoretically roll until i get a Night Creature or Angel as a pet?
1. Looks like they can be placed on any surface randomly as it's making the local tile map, from the top layer rock.
2A/B. They don't get a named faction, but everybody gets comrade links with everybody else, and maxed love/loyalty/respect/trust. At some point, it'll be fun to support more complicated dynamics in the initial group perhaps. There's also an explicit companion agreement that is formed with the reason "for adventure". I'm not sure between all of this what's governing the behavior in combat. Lots of the love/loyalty/etc. stuff is half-baked because it was part of the villain release which we had to delay.
3. Large predator, natural animal. Just in case, small creatures are forbidden. Also forbidden: cannot breathe air, immobile land, can learn, megabeast, semimegabeast, titan, demon, unique demon, supernatural.
Quote from: leastannoyingman
Have you considered enabling autosave and backups by default on the Steam version?
Relevant thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/o4ob7q/ive_done_it_again_i_forgot_to_turn_autosaves_on/
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8289586#msg8289586
leastannoyingman (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8289588#msg8289588
I'm not sure. Autosave doesn't feel super user friendly currently, because the save times and save sizes can get pretty extreme, especially for larger older worlds, and that's not something I can easily combat other than to encourage people to make smaller shorter worlds.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1. For various syndrome tokens, I see in a lot of mods people create, that arguments/tags like `ABRUPT` and `PEAK`, and even `SIZE_DILUTES` are used, even in places where it doesn't appear to make intuitive sense, like `CE_ADD_TAG` for example, since it doesn't seem possible for the intensity of something like that to vary over time (and therefore to have a "peak", or to start "abruptly", or be "diluted by size").
Would these actually work in these cases (and if so, what do they do?), or is it just a matter of them being ignored by the token parser? Another way of asking I guess, is which of these "special" creature effect syndrome tokens actually make use of `ABRUPT`, `PEAK`, and `SIZE_DILUTES` (and for that matter, `SEV`)?: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Syndrome#Special_Effects
2. How would you handle the possibility/risk of making Steam achievements that later become obsolete or nonsensical/impossible to achieve due to design/mechanical changes in updates?
3. Do you think that, if the Bay12 forums become very saturated with new players, it may become a problem to continue FotF as you do now, and to handle reading the Suggestions forum? If so, what solutions would you have in mind? (for example, for suggestions might you make more subforums for different types of suggestion?)
4. Why are there only mammal and reptile werebeasts? Was this a design decision, or just about not having time or interest to manually hardcode loads of bird and insect werebeasts and instead waiting for them to be generatable?
5. How do you manage doing bugfix updates/patches for current versions, while still working on large changes that are not ready to be released to the public (that is, getting the bugfixes/patches in both the release, and in the unreleased version)? I only ask because I wonder how that's possible to practically manage without using a version control system or branches (assuming that hasn't changed).
6. Related to the last thing, how do you keep track of what changes you have made to the codebase and to features?
7. What happens when the raw parser encounters a "creature level" token (like `BIOME` or `MEGABEAST`) inside a `CASTE` or `SELECT_CASTE`? Does it return back to parsing at the creature level and "cancel" the parsing of that caste? Or does it just ignore that token and keep moving on like it wasn't there? Or does it parse that token at the creature level and then immediately return back to the original caste?
What is it that happens? I don't seem to be seeing any errorlogs or crashes when I test this, so I'm guessing it has some kind of "graceful" solution other than crashing, but I'd like to know what it is, as I'm working with someone else on a language server for raw files (error underlining, autocomplete etc etc), and need to know what to do when these tokens when they are entered (like if they should be marked with a code warning for instance).
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8289839#msg8289839
1. They are just ignored when they don't come up. The level is used by pain, swelling, bleeding, bruising, close wounds, heal tissue, blister, numbness, paralysis, fever, nausea, unconsciousness, necrosis, impair function, drowsiness, dizziness, feel emotion, and erratic behavior, as well as the "reduce" effect associated to some of the ones in that list. Whether the level matters in some of these is probably a question, but it'll take too long to check now.
2. I'm not sure what their policy is. I'm assuming it has happened with other games. If the game has changed that much, I don't have a problem marking something as obsolete or deleting it, depending on how Steam works, but it's more up to them.
3. I'm sure it'll be an issue! If we get like a thousand new people, I'm not even sure the forum itself will still function. There are going to be some growing pains if things go well. Once we emerge from the dust cloud, we may very well have to moderate how questions are selected, or diversify the process so we can cover questions that are both popular while keeping some of the other sorts which can end up being more informative. If we do end up at a point where there are too many suggestions to read, subdivisions won't help that much I expect. It would have to be delegated somehow, which isn't ideal, but if there's that much there, it's unavoidable.
4. It was a design decision, and I expect the sort of thing that'll be impacted by whatever weirdness/deviation-from-genre-norms settings we end up with.
5. None of the changes were that extreme, and none of the code really touched the other code, so it wasn't too tricky. Certainly if it were any more complicated, it's getting into version control territory, and I'll probably have to get into that once we start maintaining the stable branch during the Big Wait.
6. It doesn't come up that often. I just have backups that I might have to look at once a year or less, which has been sufficient.
7. You should be getting a Caste Selection Fails error if you feed gibberish into SELECT_CASTE. If you feed any string into CASTE it'll just make a new caste with that token.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Given that adventurers are asexual, shouldn’t unicorns be friendly towards them?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8289997#msg8289997
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8290044#msg8290044
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8290063#msg8290063
Ha ha, not much to add to the replies, though possibly this was a NetHack joke as well. It has been too long since I've played. Not sure which sort of unicorns we'll get, but we do plan for adventurers to get a bit more involved later.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Is it intentional that elven visitors almost exclusively are members of performance troupes (or villains)? Is it something in elven culture that causes its members to join troupes rather than strike out on their own (and thus sometimes be available for recruitment, as performance troupe recruitment is bugged)?
Edit: In response to Shonai_Dweller's post below: The bug report is https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11001, although the actual question is about why elves are almost exclusive to performance troupes. The fact that they're bugged was added as context for why I even care. I expect bugs to be fixed when they get fixed, not when Toady gets bugged about them.
Elves have WANDERER and SCOUT, where dwarves/humans have WANDER, BEAST_HUNTER, SCOUT, and MERCENARY. That impacts the overall frequencies - the artists get selected from the same pool as heroes/snatchers/merchants/etc. when it is looking for those sorts of people.
Quote from: recon1o6
Will we ever be able to destroy artifacts? This could be useful for some more world events eg destroying a holy relic will cause the adventurer or fortress to be excommunicated, destroying a demon slab could banish them or make the goblins turn on their ruler, a slab with life and death being broken could cause those who read from it to die from a curse/lose their undead
This actually came up in smallhands recently over in community fort. For story reasons I was trying to dispose of a slab. I ended up having to dig a room and drop the room into magma to throw the slab into it and even then its not gone, only "hidden" until reclaim/adventure mode
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8291152#msg8291152
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8291161#msg8291161
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8291262#msg8291262
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8291300#msg8291300
recon1o6 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8291381#msg8291381
The weird permanence of artifacts is an ancient property of the game dating back to when we thought adventure mode was going to be about finding objects and making a high score list. It'll probably just get scrapped entirely at some point (respecting whatever weird magical permanence may come up in-universe.)
Quote from: Pillbo
How are you and Zach holding up to the heatwave? I hope you and all the pets are ok.
We made it! It wasn't fun though, ha ha ha.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
What exactly is a WORSHIP_HF token? i noticed it appear in speech raws dialogue for temples when describing the inhouse patron god of a temple when being accepted into it (though i've never actually played a temple induction myself, usually there's nobody around to talk to, to take a quest from) and a few select interesting nuggets about it being connected to demon-leaders/diplomats/trade-liason foolery when used for position-code mainly based on past versions and a little bit of present version tinkering.
I mean what i *think* i've got from my results so far is that its meant to be any sort of dedicated role for gods/pretenders, but its hard to tell because only the vaguest fringes of it is editable from entity_default on a dark-fortress which has the criteria of a living physical "pretender".
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8291751#msg8291751
I only see it in reference to the speech stuff, where it just pulls a random worship target of an entity. I'm not sure where it comes up in position code, since it's not an easy search.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1. How do `APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION` args work? Like, can they be of any type? (I ask because the vanilla raws only seem to use integers, and I've not seen any mods bucking this trend).
2. How many args can be given/used in `APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION`? `BODY_DETAIL_PLANS` only take a maximum of 5 it seems, so I was wondering if these also have a hardcoded limit (I can tell it's at least 6, but might be more).
3. Also, about the special `|` character being used to separate arguments in `APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION` so that one `!ARG` can represent multiple arguments, can there be more than 2 arguments in this way, and if so, is there a maximum or is it arbitrary? Such as `5|0|8`?
4. How does `CTAG` and it's conditional behavior on a single token interact with the above `|` behavior? Can it only work if `!ARG1` is not actually multiple arguments, or would it just pick the first one out of the bunch?
5. About `BODY_DETAIL_PLAN` objects and giving "coverage" for some relations, I've also seen coverages given for positions, and sometimes I see coverages given and other times I don't (even for relations like `BELOW`); which relations/positions actually require a coverage value, and do any take it optionally? What's the situation there with layer coverages?
6. In the `BODY_DETAIL_PLAN` token `BP_LAYERS`, apparently you can only define 5 "ARG" tokens (ie up to `ARG5`), but you can also mix in specific tissues like so:Code: [Select][BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:HORN:ARG4:2:HORN:2]
My question is, can you add more than 5 tissues using `BP_LAYERS`, if in addition to the `ARG1`-`ARG5` tissues, you also add in other specific tissues? Or is it hardcoded to 5 tissues maximum even then? Like, would something like this be possible?:Code: [Select][BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:HORN:ARG5:2:HEART:2:ARG4:2:EYE:2:ARG3:2:HORN:2:ARG2:2:ARG1:2]
7. About the "thickness" of each tissue (the number given after each tissue argument); is this relative or absolute, and how high can it go? I get the impression from the numbers that it's a percentage (ie a percentage of how much that tissue takes up of that body part), but I'm unsure, because it doesn't always add up to 100:Code: [Select][BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:TUSK:IVORY:100]
[BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:NOSE:ARG5:4:ARG1:1]
8. Can you define the same tissue more than one time in a single `BP_LAYERS`? Like this:Code: [Select][BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:HORN:ARG4:2:HORN:2:ARG4]
9. In the `TISSUE_LAYER` token in some creature tokens, you see the likes of:Code: [Select][TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:HAIR:NORMAL]]
What is the "NORMAL"? Usually in that place there's a position or relation token, but I have no idea what to make of this one/what it means.
1. It looks like it's just doing string find-replaces, and the arguments are stored as strings, so anything should work, but I have no idea how that may go wrong.
2. Yeah, I only implemented ARG1 through ARG5 because I was being lazy or rushed way back whenever, but the loader of arguments can keep pulling them in.
3/4. Looks like it loops through the entire argument string and converts them all. This conversion happens very early, before the arguments are sent into the variation. So I'm assuming CTAG comparisons won't work if they have |, since the argument will have : by the time it checks.
5. There's a lot going on there and some examples would help me check more quickly.
6. Looks like it'll loop through 1000 times, or until there's nothing left to grab.
7. It's called relative tissue thickness in the code. It probably computes a sum, but I can't quickly check beyond the txt parser.
8. It doesn't check against it. I'm not sure if anything bad happens.
9. Normal just skips the same was as none does. Could be an old compatibility thing? No idea.
Post by: Putnam on July 01, 2021, 07:55:26 pm
1. How do `APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION` args work? Like, can they be of any type? (I ask because the vanilla raws only seem to use integers, and I've not seen any mods bucking this trend).
For reference, Fantastic uses string arguments for its "WANDERER" creature variation, which makes the creature it's applied to a local population a la animal people, with the options including what biome they live in.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 02, 2021, 12:03:36 am
It's a useful indicator for some people playing in very specific ways but seems a bit too frightening for what it's actually showing (a perfectly healthy fortress).
And yeeaahhh, suggestion maybe. But would like to hear Toady's reasoning on why this is important for people to know all of the time.
Post by: clinodev on July 02, 2021, 02:09:30 am
Does the current version of the game really need IDLERS up front in bold fooling new players into thinking this is somehow a bad thing? Giving dwarves time off to enjoy themselves is an increasingly important part of Fortress life and I've seen new players post in panic that whatever they do the fortress is full of "Idlers".
It's a useful indicator for some people playing in very specific ways but seems a bit too frightening for what it's actually showing (a perfectly healthy fortress).
Yeah, that's a really good question. The idea that dwarves have to be kept "first year busy" forever is definitely one of the community meta elements I find myself fighting against a lot. It not only keeps dwarves from meeting their needs, making friends, finding partners, and so on, but contributes heavily to the sort of overproduction, mass hauling, and over-pathing that gives so many people the idea the game is quickly unplayable for FPS reasons, despite evidence to the contrary, like BlindiRL's Longdeath (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fYZGFIgWQg), streamed most days at playable speeds at ~250 years.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 02, 2021, 02:55:57 am
:Quote from: PatrikLundellIs it intentional that elven visitors almost exclusively are members of performance troupes (or villains)? Is it something in elven culture that causes its members to join troupes rather than strike out on their own (and thus sometimes be available for recruitment, as performance troupe recruitment is bugged)?
Edit: In response to Shonai_Dweller's post below: The bug report is https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11001, although the actual question is about why elves are almost exclusive to performance troupes. The fact that they're bugged was added as context for why I even care. I expect bugs to be fixed when they get fixed, not when Toady gets bugged about them.
Elves have WANDERER and SCOUT, where dwarves/humans have WANDER, BEAST_HUNTER, SCOUT, and MERCENARY. That impacts the overall frequencies - the artists get selected from the same pool as heroes/snatchers/merchants/etc. when it is looking for those sorts of people.
:
I'm having trouble understanding the answer...
Does this mean that the MERCENARY tag opens up another pool for military mercenaries/traveling artists/artists seeking employment (as individuals rather than troupes)/(potentially as traveling/job seeking scientists)?
Otherwise I don't see how the artists that do travel all end up in troupes rather than as individuals.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 02, 2021, 10:18:08 am
I'm having trouble understanding the answer...
Does this mean that the MERCENARY tag opens up another pool for military mercenaries/traveling artists/artists seeking employment (as individuals rather than troupes)/(potentially as traveling/job seeking scientists)?
Otherwise I don't see how the artists that do travel all end up in troupes rather than as individuals.
I do believe that elves have a good amount of inclination towards artistic pursuits already, as i've noticed with higher amounts of mercenaries where [MERCENARY] is enabled for that pool of adventurer labor in particularly honor-and martial prowess driven societies (if you want a easy example, orcs from snagglepagus's modifications or sets of mostly humans and dwarves)
Individuals choose whatever they are leaning closest to out of the options of adventurer tokens like toady's elaborated from the same pool of "netural candidates" (also explains why my modded goblins with adventurer types have so few snatchers, this is helpful knowlege, thanks Toady!) and can't spontanously choose any profession if its not on the entity file's definition. Scholars for instance always value knowledge strongly, even if its uncommon in their home-civ to hold that interest.
If you want elves to diversify, you'll have to try and identify their motivation and create a bigger field of potential interests or just cancel elf bards out by editing it off file for the time being.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 02, 2021, 11:29:08 am
I don't have any clue as to what causes an artist to elect to join a performance troupe versus striking out on their own, unless a MERCENARY tag match means "seek work/visit alone", while artists that don't match that tag join troupes/mercenary companies. Humans seem to be split between the two avenues of artistic expression, while elves seem stuck on only one (on the other hand, almost all human mercs get locked up in merc companies and thus lost to fortresses to the lament of some players, while the remainder tend to start as questers and sometimes switch over to mercs, but rather few of those are seen).
Post by: Toady One on July 03, 2021, 07:04:29 pm
Post by: squamous on July 03, 2021, 08:26:22 pm
1. Will the medical update implement simple prosthetics like peg legs or something like Götz von Berlichingen's iron hand?
2. What are the variables needed to implement demons taking over a civ besides MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS? That is, if one wanted to make a custom civilization be taken over by custom demons and their custom minions, what tags would be required for all of that stuff to work?
3. Are there any plans to make vault dwelling angels moddable like demons are?
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on July 03, 2021, 08:52:35 pm
1. Will the medical update implement simple prosthetics like peg legs or something like Götz von Berlichingen's iron hand?
2. What are the variables needed to implement demons taking over a civ besides MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS? That is, if one wanted to make a custom civilization be taken over by custom demons and their custom minions, what tags would be required for all of that stuff to work?
If I may expand on the second question:
Is the ability for the underworld disaster civs to spawn tied at all to MAX_STARTING_CIV_NUMBER? For example, if one wanted to prevent the initial placement of goblin/custom evil civs but allow them to spawn after civ placement.
There probably is an obvious answer lurking around here somewhere, but I already looked and searched a bit and might have missed it. :-[
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 04, 2021, 12:33:38 am
Post by: EternalCaveDragon on July 04, 2021, 12:37:58 am
Starting with zero goblin civs (set in max starting civs) works. A new gobbo civ will be formed when someone opens up the circus.
Duly noted. Thank you. :D
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 04, 2021, 02:14:16 am
Ah, sorry, I was just replying as to why a higher percentage of elves are artists, without addressing the troupe vs. individual question by itself. My mistake! It's possible the higher proportion of artists leads to more troupes just because there's more artists around. I don't think there are particular personality effects here, but I can check for next time.Thanks Toady. I'm looking forward to it.
Related bonus question: Is there some similar logic to determine whether mercs go into merc bands, set out alone, or become quest seekers (often in groups)? Some people like hiring mercs, so it would be useful to know if there's a way to influence the ratios between them.
Post by: Urist McSadist on July 04, 2021, 04:40:17 am
Post by: Nilsolm on July 12, 2021, 07:56:22 am
1. In v.47.05, there were changes to the balance of migrants professions according to the changelog. Can you give an outline of what exactly was changed?
2. More generally, what determines the kind of migrants you get? I know it's supposed to be based on the availability of professions/skills at the player's fort and histfigs would be prioritised if possible. But can other factors have an indirect influence, like the age of the world or what little economy is simulated currently?
3. Under what circumstances do histfigs switch to another civilisation? I've noticed that nearly all of these animal caretakers and herbalists are former citizens of elven sites. I presume the reason there are so many of them is because they run over to the player's civ and then show up in migrant waves, but I am not really sure what causes them to do so.
Post by: clinodev on July 12, 2021, 08:39:25 am
1. In v.47.05, there were changes to the balance of migrants professions according to the changelog. Can you give an outline of what exactly was changed?
I await the reply along with you, but that part I can speak to. I was asked to provide some common complaints from newer players and redditors generally with 47.04, and your concerns about professions were on my list. The changes were intended to fix the excessive imbalance of herbalists and animal caretakers in previous versions. It does not appear to have worked out, alas (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177989.msg8262024#msg8262024).
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 12, 2021, 10:22:00 am
There's no actual developer list of each dwarf's potential stat growth, but i guess its one of those recurring complaints when a dwarf at normal amounts plus is 140% efficient at doing a thing (minus in game circumstance, focused, unfocused, stunned, bad stats) without any input that you might expect to find in d_init to no luck.
Post by: ArrowheadArcher on July 14, 2021, 11:44:41 pm
Post by: Rose on July 15, 2021, 01:10:55 am
When are weather systems, basic ones, coming?
The game does, in fact, have a rather in-depth weather simulation that you never see.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 15, 2021, 03:01:44 am
When are weather systems, basic ones, coming?
The game does, in fact, have a rather in-depth weather simulation that you never see.
Well, most of the conditions are visible from arena mode which has a fully fluid control panel for setting it up however you like, though the most obvious form in previous versions is the inclusion of "Evil Rain" that especially culminates in one place but can barrage through the weather simulation longer distances away from its origin point.
The flow of how other much more mundane weather reaches you is actually affected by these though like snowstorms in the desert you might not initially realise it at first isn't attached to biome with factors like temperature twiddling the likelyhood of these a little, but the overall feel of the passage of time and world mechanics is more prevalent in adventure mode rather than eternally lit fortress mode anyway if you fancied yourself a cloud watcher.
Still wish there was more excuse to coat things in ground fog (that doesnt do something horrible like evil-fog variants) so that kobolds and snatchers could stand half a chance of getting into your fort when the map sight conditions are poor, choosing a moment to strike.
Post by: ArrowheadArcher on July 15, 2021, 08:44:29 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 16, 2021, 05:31:46 am
I think what I mean is more stuff like lightning storms, hurricanes, tornados. More dynamic weather systems in general for the player to face. Even randomly erupting volcanoes for volcano biomes would be interesting. Biomes don't feel alive, they feel rather static, with only animal populations changing/going extinct. Even simple stuff like changing temperature over years, cloudy weather which can affect said temperature, and player actions like cutting down forests could raise temperatures. An ecology update would be amazing for DF if the time comes.
And yes, its more over that way of direction too of the ideas subforum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) to elaborate if you want to on advanced weather. Because a likely Toady response would be "sounds cool, but havent thought about it recently" if affronted with things way over upcoming arc's or development.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on July 17, 2021, 07:21:46 am
Will there be a niche for relatively "mundane", human-only worlds which still have a certain amount of magic and unusual creatures here and there (something like Song of Ice and Fire/GoT), or does the presence of magic automatically imply nonhuman civs by extension?
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 17, 2021, 11:58:57 am
So about the Myth & Magic arc and what I understand about the cutoff between mundane and magical worlds...It would be odd if that wouldn't be a possibility. The magic sliders shouldn't be directly tied to the weirdness ones, so it ought to also be possible to play as slimes (or whatever, including elves) in an otherwise non magical world where the gods are not real.
Will there be a niche for relatively "mundane", human-only worlds which still have a certain amount of magic and unusual creatures here and there (something like Song of Ice and Fire/GoT), or does the presence of magic automatically imply nonhuman civs by extension?
Post by: Bumber on July 17, 2021, 08:22:35 pm
The algorithm for removing trees always puts a down-ramp over an up-ramp, even if that up-ramp is part of the tree to be removed. It should either ignore the type of up-ramp used by shroom trees, or ignore one that's part of the same tree (if it's possible for trees to overlap in such a way.)
Post by: leastannoyingman on July 18, 2021, 12:18:23 pm
DF includes two weird factor of 10 discrepancies that cancel out. Everything is ten times as small as it should be (except weapons and a few others), but everything is ten times as dense as it should be (again except weapons), so upon first inspection it's all fine. But this makes cloth denser than real-world lead, and seeds deadlier than real-world bullets (known bug (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/print_bug_page.php?bug_id=5945)). To fix this, you would reverse the changes: multiply the size of almost everything by 10 and remove the hidden factor of 10 multiplier on density when calculating weight.
TL;DR: Will everything be made bigger and less dense, and why is it like this in the first place?
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 21, 2021, 06:16:05 am
I don't have any clue as to what causes an artist to elect to join a performance troupe versus striking out on their own, unless a MERCENARY tag match means "seek work/visit alone", while artists that don't match that tag join troupes/mercenary companies. Humans seem to be split between the two avenues of artistic expression, while elves seem stuck on only one (on the other hand, almost all human mercs get locked up in merc companies and thus lost to fortresses to the lament of some players, while the remainder tend to start as questers and sometimes switch over to mercs, but rather few of those are seen).
Some side context from reading up on troupes some more is that apparently elves will confess to being members of troupes as their personal scheme-association when investigated while innocent of any schemes to steal or corrupt anyone. Ill write up a issue report if i see it myself next time im in-game with a functioning counter-intelligence, but right now getting the crimes to happen with pretty chill dwarves to access the screen is difficult.
Troupes would be then peer-pressuring others (they dont have much issue convincing your dwarves to revolt en-masse, other elves would be cakewalk) in the adventuerer pool into joining them and coming to your fort in a pseudo scheme-plot to... annoy your dwarves with poetry, rooty-tooty flutes and energetic dance routines.
What labor a race does is normally full attributed to weight on skill grind & personality stats (which i contributed to my answer on the labor survey, races are far too perfected to fit roles it hurts roleplay of someone being bad at their job in w.g), so i think its probably a mixture of my previous answer of attributes with this intrigue grouping bug too.
Post by: kontako on July 23, 2021, 06:13:05 am
Is it possible to breed mega-beasts, supposing there was a viable pair?
In a fort I once had, I captured a giant and was hoping to build an army if I ever captured a giantess.
I ask as in the same fortress I had then captured a pair of cave trolls hoping to do the same, though they never took.
I can see the obscenity in attempting to breed sapient humanoids, though to my understanding, the goblins treat trolls much like this.
I often inadvertently produce little troglodyte-lings in my prisons and was wondering if there was anything that prevented it in other cases.
Whilst writing the above, I had thought of another question:
Do humanoid creatures (such as ogres, giants, and animal people) belong to a civilization, and therefore perhaps have 'cultures' or are they considered wildlife?
If they do, can they become things like heroes, warriors or musicians during world-gen?
My questions have been answered!
Post by: kontako on July 23, 2021, 06:16:25 am
:Intelligent semi mega beasts presumably use the same breeding model as other "wild" intelligent creatures (such as troglodytes), i.e. the animal breeding model. This can be seen when a group camps in a cavern. I don't know if anyone has tried to set up any breeding programs for intelligent semi mega beasts, though, but it has probably been done.
Mage beast and semi-mega beast reproduce during world gen, how do they go about their reproduction? do giants form relationships Off screen/invisibly or is it just mindless mating/reproduction?
Since some animals do form pair bonds for life would it make sense for at least some Mega beasts and Semi-Mega beast to form relationships and track family members so they can seek revenge or render assistance to each other or are they intended to not have such motivations?
:
Fully intelligent megabeasts or otherwise for 44.12 rely on marriage rules and it happens offscreen in w.g, only slow learners like 'Giants' rely on animal-level mating given the practices you can partake in to breed troglodytes and trolls by breeding them on a chain or in cages near compatible mates. Though its fully possible now on 47.01 that cyclopian family groups could be introduced to one another in fortress mode through controlled introduction to one another on a chain in the hopes of them becoming lovers, though its not much of a existance.
The purposes for breeding cyclopses would be a difficult lengthy process, that isn't nearly as productive as breeding trolls (putting in pits, slow down siegers, long lifespan for cage exhibits) for albiet a cyclops has much more potential (once a few years has elapsed) to be used as defensive failguard or guardian of a pit. Taking into account megabeast caps too.
- The civilized concept of marriage not being applicable to megabeasts and uncivilized creatures and thinking about life-bond/relationship status of a mate -monogomy is a nice thought but probably warrants a suggestion thread instead
Would you believe I only had to go back a bit to answer my question, who would've known...
I wonder why my trolls never bred.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 23, 2021, 07:10:08 am
Quote from: kontako
Do humanoid creatures (such as ogres, giants, and animal people) belong to a civilization, and therefore perhaps have 'cultures' or are they considered wildlife?
If they do, can they become things like heroes, warriors or musicians during world-gen?
Answer you may be looking for is [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] which was a token introduced with 44. tavern arc responsible for creating the populations of animalpeople, gorlaks, mushroom men and other weird noncivilized oddities. [OUTSIDE_CONTROLLABLE] creates a single adventurer instance of that animal (any animal) not affilliated to any entity, but [MEGABEAST] and [SEMI_MEGABEAST] always draw hostility because they themselves are very hostile.
On the whole, how megabeasts operate can still change in future arcs, Toady still has eyes on dragon subspecies in development goals and re-expanding ([POWER] to let MB's take over civs been functionally disabled for a time) & how they interact with entities (they can still draw abstract religion-sphere worship, though there's no reprecussions when you kill a particular cults "god", animal sacredness is a goal too) (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
As for cultures, no, Giants might live in the same "lair" because they're members of a family in a sense, or other creatures inside a "mound" (a night troll earth hut with a few civilized knick-nacks and their loot) but it is no way a cohesive society, it has no entity or structure it's just a common place owned by them. Alternative societies to the settlement tokens and other outlying little social groups may be explored closer to the law arc & scenario's, mentioning in the last FotF nomadic groups of animalpeople etc. Which sounds closer to what you might visualize in your head for ambient [SEMI_INTELLIGENT] wildlife like said troggs and trolls. Far off, after the big wait, 5+ years kind of deal.
Would you believe I only had to go back a bit to answer my question, who would've known...
My stance on the matter is much the same now as it was then for 47.05, gremlins however as the only intentional "intelligent" pet, are still buggy to-date and very hard to integrate into your fort and keep tame, @PatrickLundell particularly has a axe to grind, having captured and trained them before trying to keep to strictly vanilla gameplay.
Though i know its not worth the bother really for all the modding, 3rd party tooling and waiting to make the game feature viable without homebrewing your own underlings, which isnt really as satisfying as knowing the potential reward that can be gotten from the effort of a gremlin trap.
Toady, with the new screens discerning animals & civilians much clearer will a gremlin's UI as a intelligent-feature-creature finally be cleaned to a usable standard to try and fit in with the rest of the dwarves?)
I doubt any improvement with the steam df graphical would be mega-amazing drastic in a rework on release in this area, but anything that is a bit clearer helps, as well as seeing the said gremlins happyness passively in civilian counts if that can be correlated to how likely they are to go and petition for full labors.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 23, 2021, 07:43:04 am
Your questions are inconsistent:
- Giants (of various kinds) are not megabeasts, but semi-megabeasts. They're intelligent (at least one is only semi-intelligent, like trolls and troglodytes), and so are subject to the intelligence/civilization issued discussed.
- None of the megabeasts are intelligent, and they can be bred (with the exception for the non organic bronze colossus, of course) as far as I understand. However, they're born adult, and so cannot be fully tamed. In addition to that they're also bugged so they automatically go hostile against active military units (your own as well as merchant guards). Toady did something to deal with a loyalty cascade in the latest release, but as far as I understand that doesn't remove the underlying problem.
Regarding conversion of intelligent "wildlife" to become citizens (currently gremlins only in vanilla): I don't see that fixing this rather niche functionality would be more important than a lot of other bug fixing candidates. If the job allocation logic/UI is changed enough and it's a trivial thing to do, allowing DF to allocate jobs to gremlin citizens might be thrown in as a bonus, but an overhaul of the whole complex probably won't happen until "wild" civilizations on the tribal/extended family group level are dealt with, which probably would be Starting Scenarios at the earliest.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 23, 2021, 08:34:51 am
@kontako: - None of the megabeasts are intelligent, and they can be bred (with the exception for the non organic bronze colossus, of course) as far as I understand. However, they're born adult, and so cannot be fully tamed.
Rocs aren't born as adults, letting the fledglings be fully tamed (and trainable) unlike dragons which need maintenance to upkeep their tamed status from their hatchling-adult forms.
Also Cyclops's & Minotaurs get a free get out-of-jail card with animal offscreen breeding like said before for their full-intelligent status, but their occupation as a megabeast definitely takes up their time squashing towns to be busy doing anything else, other non megabeast full intelligents can breed offscreen in wild counts too just fine to keep the regional numbers of animalpeople/underground people/other stable.
Funnily enough, i feel some of these questions might have been spurred by a recent kruggsmash video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN1Z-dSABuM) in modded settings and the renewed interest around this bug-report on what happens when babies drop not belonging to your fort. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11490)
Spoiler: "relevant vid spoilers - TLDW" (click to show/hide)
Post by: kontako on July 23, 2021, 08:51:56 am
Answer you may be looking for is [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES]
I think that may answer my second question.
...gremlins however as the only intentional "intelligent" pet...
At the time, I was satisfied with attempting to keep them on-site as a hostile force. Army was more a euphemism for attempting to weaponise them.
@kontako:
Your questions are inconsistent:
Other than the omission of 'semi', I don't particularly note an inconsistency
Funnily enough, i feel some of these questions might have been spurred by a recent kruggsmash video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN1Z-dSABuM) in modded settings and the renewed interest around this bug-report on what happens when babies drop not belonging to your fort. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11490)Spoiler: "relevant vid spoilers - TLDW" (click to show/hide)
It's the first I've seen either of these, there must be a real bad case of Baader-Meinhof syndrome going around because it seems as if the answer to that question is everywhere.
The attempt I mentioned was almost a year ago now, though I've been putting off asking about it as I thought it was a particularly strange question
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 23, 2021, 11:30:20 am
:The omission of the semi turns out to be rather important as none of the megabeasts are intelligent, while all of the semi-megabeasts are (I don't think there's any unintelligent semi-megabeast, anyway). This means the distinction becomes important as the intelligence (or lack thereof) is implied by the description.@kontako:
Your questions are inconsistent:
Other than the omission of 'semi', I don't particularly note an inconsistency
:
Post by: Bumber on July 27, 2021, 05:50:37 am
The value is typically around 1 for the created logs, but I'm not sure what the equation or random number range used is. Falling webs get a value of 0, whereas fired bolts can have a value in the 100's.
Post by: Putnam on July 27, 2021, 08:38:12 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 27, 2021, 10:52:41 am
How is the hit rating (not sure what you call it) calculated for logs that fall after a tree is cut?
Mmm the gravity movement per z layers? Measured in G's, i dont know enough about it really to speak confidently on the matter. Here's the wiki link if it helps you (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Gravity), but aboveground tree logs split apart and fall within ticks away from a single trunk least according to the spread of the branches if i have that right (or slightly offcourse falling from the trunk)
Dwarf falls onto dwarf: transfers force, item falls onto dwarf, cracks skull.
Drop anvils or parabolically shoot things out of minecart, higher angles equals more force but speed is already pretty good, cyclops & giant throwing is generally inconsequential without being literally chucked into the ocean or off a mountain building up g's to crash into a stone floor for anything some adequate armor can't soak up (unless it tears your joints twisting in response to the force.)
Post by: alan8325 on July 27, 2021, 01:32:52 pm
1. If the siege improvements include some kind of digging ability for invaders, could we expect material properties to play a role in ability to dig a tile? For example could iron blocks block the digging or make it very slow (like several fort mode days per block)?
2. Will the Tactician trait provide benefits to on-map dwarves after the siege improvements?
3. Will we see any basic formations for on-map dwarves in the siege improvements?
Post by: Mr Crabman on July 28, 2021, 01:43:45 pm
What sort of changes if any do you have planned for combat logs for the Premium release?
2. Yeah, I only implemented ARG1 through ARG5 because I was being lazy or rushed way back whenever, but the loader of arguments can keep pulling them in.
5. There's a lot going on there and some examples would help me check more quickly.
2. So to clarify (I may be failing in reading comprehension here), would it be possible for us users to define ARG6 and !ARG7 and beyond in our arguments (and pass in those arguments into the body detail plans and creature variations)?
I'm not sure whether by "only implemented ARG1 through ARG5" you're just referring to your own use of them in the files, or if it's that putting in the !ARG7 (in creature variations) and ARG6 (in body detail plans) just won't work (and that the creature can pass in more args, but they get ignored).
5. So this is what I was talking about:
Code: [Select]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:RIB_FALSE:AROUND:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:15]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:RIB_FLOATING:AROUND:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:15]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:RHB:BELOW:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_LOWER:33]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:LHB:BELOW:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_LOWER:33]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:ABOVE:BY_CATEGORY:NOSE]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:THROAT:IN_FRONT:BY_CATEGORY:NECK]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:RCB:ABOVE:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_UPPER:33]In some cases there is a number given on the end, representing the coverage (according to the wiki), and in other cases there isn't, so I was wondering what difference this would make; like, do some relations require a coverage while others do not accept one, or is it mandatory for some but optional for others, or is the coverage optional in all cases (with some fallback "default" when no coverage is given)?
Post by: Bumber on July 28, 2021, 01:53:01 pm
Like, the accuracy?
Not sure. Could have something to do with impact force. It's this value (https://github.com/DFHack/df-structures/blob/253dfb374cca068843809022dc27605b1b8d99e3/df.projectile.xml#L49) in the projectile struct.
Post by: Su on July 30, 2021, 12:18:53 am
none of the new screens you've shown so far have had keyboard controls displayed. in fact, they look completely unusable with a keyboard to me. they're pretty, to be sure, but if there's no way for me to tell what keyboard keys to press, i'm not going to be able to play anymore. i don't have anywhere near the kind of memory needed to remember so many controls.
are you planing on making a second pass to add keyboard hints, or am i shit out of luck?
Post by: Spriggans on July 30, 2021, 08:16:57 am
I heard him meow on the last youtube video, I was wondering how our beloved cat goes :)
Post by: DwarfStar on July 30, 2021, 10:54:15 am
none of the new screens you've shown so far have had keyboard controls displayed. in fact, they look completely unusable with a keyboard to me.
I am hope/guessing that the plan is, when you press Tab, a keyboard hint sheet will slide out of the right side of each window. I know these same screens are supposed to also work in classic (which is why they're still on a grid) so I think it's guaranteed that keyboard-only control will still be possible.
Post by: clinodev on July 30, 2021, 02:27:45 pm
We still see crayon art trickling out! (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/ou9igx/my_recent_original_tarn_and_zach_drawing/?depth=10)
How many crayon rewards are left, and how long do you estimate before you're finished?
I know it's been answered that the text colors will be user settable. As the colors do not appear to have subsequently changed in Steam Community Updates, the following questions have arisen:
Are you in fact trolling us with the continued dark blue text on dark background?
Is that dark blue your favorite color?
Post by: Nilsolm on July 30, 2021, 05:15:43 pm
Post by: Gtyx1 on July 31, 2021, 11:55:17 pm
Are there any plans to have a technology slider or anything? Like on one hand you have stone age, then on the other side you have machine guns and modern clothing
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on August 01, 2021, 12:09:10 am
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2021, 06:21:44 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Does the current version of the game really need IDLERS up front in bold fooling new players into thinking this is somehow a bad thing? Giving dwarves time off to enjoy themselves is an increasingly important part of Fortress life and I've seen new players post in panic that whatever they do the fortress is full of "Idlers".
It's a useful indicator for some people playing in very specific ways but seems a bit too frightening for what it's actually showing (a perfectly healthy fortress).
And yeeaahhh, suggestion maybe. But would like to hear Toady's reasoning on why this is important for people to know all of the time.
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8292131#msg8292131
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8292136#msg8292136
I agree it's probably out of date.
Quote
Quote from: PatrikLundellDoes this mean that the MERCENARY tag opens up another pool for military mercenaries/traveling artists/artists seeking employment (as individuals rather than troupes)/(potentially as traveling/job seeking scientists)?
Otherwise I don't see how the artists that do travel all end up in troupes rather than as individuals.Quote from: meAh, sorry, I was just replying as to why a higher percentage of elves are artists, without addressing the troupe vs. individual question by itself. My mistake! It's possible the higher proportion of artists leads to more troupes just because there's more artists around. I don't think there are particular personality effects here, but I can check for next time.Quote from: PatrikLundellRelated bonus question: Is there some similar logic to determine whether mercs go into merc bands, set out alone, or become quest seekers (often in groups)? Some people like hiring mercs, so it would be useful to know if there's a way to influence the ratios between them.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8292175#msg8292175
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8292201#msg8292201
For each side, merc groups are founded and added to among the side's mercenaries after a battle. It looks like people that have a very low value of commerce, or people that have a very low gregarious number, will not join a group. People that have just low values here (rather than very low), or who don't value martial prowess, will not become founders. So if you just make everybody loners, or set the parent civilization commerce value low, you can probably control the percentages. Setting the commerce value low will probably shut down independent merchant companies as well, though those don't do much yet so it's probably fine.
I couldn't find any similar restrictions on performance troupes, though they'd make sense of course. That's further complicated by master/apprentice stuff I didn't have time to check, but I expect all the same that they are harder to control.
Quote
Quote from: squamous1. Will the medical update implement simple prosthetics like peg legs or something like Götz von Berlichingen's iron hand?
2. What are the variables needed to implement demons taking over a civ besides MINING_UNDERWORLD_DISASTERS? That is, if one wanted to make a custom civilization be taken over by custom demons and their custom minions, what tags would be required for all of that stuff to work?
3. Are there any plans to make vault dwelling angels moddable like demons are?Quote from: EternalCaveDragonIs the ability for the underworld disaster civs to spawn tied at all to MAX_STARTING_CIV_NUMBER? For example, if one wanted to prevent the initial placement of goblin/custom evil civs but allow them to spawn after civ placement.
There probably is an obvious answer lurking around here somewhere, but I already looked and searched a bit and might have missed it.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8292586#msg8292586
EternalCaveDragon (op2): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8292589#msg8292589
1. We don't really have a notion of grasp strength to make it interesting, so I'm not sure we'll be doing so much. Ultimately though, slapping items on to creatures in new ways can end up interesting. We'll probably need to be held back from making experiments more frightful, since we tend to get sucked into that kind of thing.
2. For the underworld disaster, you need an underworld layer and an entitydef where a creature in the def has EVIL (goblins for example.) I don't see any other requirements for the base event. If you additionally want a demon to come up with them, you need a creature in the raws or generated with UNIQUE_DEMON that has CAN_LEARN or INTELLIGENT. For EternalCaveDragon's question, it doesn't look like it is tied to the max starting number, though you'd have to stop your EVIL creature entity from spawning at start through other means.
3. Certainly not before the whole thing gets blown up by mythgen.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
Are there any plans to add more depth to offscreen battles in the near future? Maybe take powers besides necromancy into account?
I don't anticipate it'll focus on powers so much, but we're going to do a lot of army stuff during the pre-magic work, after the graphics release, and offscreen battles figure into that. When we were thinking about doing this way back when, it involved formation on that mid-level maps and otherwise smearing battles out over time and space, rather than just working on the report/actions of a single localized battle. But we'll see where it goes.
Quote from: Nilsolm
I've been trying to work out what may be causing the migrants profession weirdness; specifically animal caretakers and herbalists being overrepresented in migrant waves, which is an issue I've been running into a lot since the last update. I have some questions regarding that:
1. In v.47.05, there were changes to the balance of migrants professions according to the changelog. Can you give an outline of what exactly was changed?
2. More generally, what determines the kind of migrants you get? I know it's supposed to be based on the availability of professions/skills at the player's fort and histfigs would be prioritised if possible. But can other factors have an indirect influence, like the age of the world or what little economy is simulated currently?
3. Under what circumstances do histfigs switch to another civilisation? I've noticed that nearly all of these animal caretakers and herbalists are former citizens of elven sites. I presume the reason there are so many of them is because they run over to the player's civ and then show up in migrant waves, but I am not really sure what causes them to do so.
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8295160#msg8295160
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8295184#msg8295184
1. I mainly removed most of the stuff based on job number completed. Now it just goes for a more even mix. Since people aren't doing tons of caretaking and herbalist jobs, this ultimate doesn't impact this issue I think. I couldn't get it to reproduce.
2. Anything that changes the composition of histfigs would have an impact, since it draws from that pool. Are these worlds dominated by elves? I haven't been able to reproduce these caretaker/herbalist migrant waves. I suppose there could be some weird situation like the children of artists creating a bias, if there are more elven artists and thus a draw from the performance troupes?
3. They can migrate or be conquered. But they don't have a particular bias toward going to elf civs.
Quote from: ArrowheadArcher
When are weather systems, basic ones, coming?
Rose: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8296035#msg8296035
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8296049#msg8296049
ArrowheadArcher (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8296259#msg8296259
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8296327#msg8296327
There's no timeline for addition stuff here. We've had things in the notes of course, and more interesting effects would be fun. At this point, some of them are on the vast magic table, but most things on that table won't be done the first pass through. After that I have no idea when I'd next look at it. Boats maybe.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
So about the Myth & Magic arc and what I understand about the cutoff between mundane and magical worlds...
Will there be a niche for relatively "mundane", human-only worlds which still have a certain amount of magic and unusual creatures here and there (something like Song of Ice and Fire/GoT), or does the presence of magic automatically imply nonhuman civs by extension?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8296665#msg8296665
Yeah, PatrikLundell's covered it more or less. There'll be a variety of options, and low magic human settings are pretty popular.
Quote from: Bumber
I think I found the cause of the floating down-ramps after shroom trees are cut down bug.
The algorithm for removing trees always puts a down-ramp over an up-ramp, even if that up-ramp is part of the tree to be removed. It should either ignore the type of up-ramp used by shroom trees, or ignore one that's part of the same tree (if it's possible for trees to overlap in such a way.)
If I recollect, I think I caught this when I was doing underground mushroom graphics, but I'll note it down for another check. Thanks!
Quote from: leastannoyingman
This is something discovered by WindComeCalling and submitted as a bug:
DF includes two weird factor of 10 discrepancies that cancel out. Everything is ten times as small as it should be (except weapons and a few others), but everything is ten times as dense as it should be (again except weapons), so upon first inspection it's all fine. But this makes cloth denser than real-world lead, and seeds deadlier than real-world bullets (known bug). To fix this, you would reverse the changes: multiply the size of almost everything by 10 and remove the hidden factor of 10 multiplier on density when calculating weight.
TL;DR: Will everything be made bigger and less dense, and why is it like this in the first place?
Volumes are not in 1 cm^3 units in memory, only in the raw files. A creature that is 70000 for instance, like a human, in the raws, is 7000 in memory. This is intentional, since it avoided some multiplication blowouts. It divides them down when it loads them. The memory volume unit is 10cm^3. Now, there are almost certainly a ton of weird values, especially for items, and bugs, but finding them has to start from there. The densities are stored in mg/cm^3, and masses are stored in (kg,mg) pairs, so it uses a factor of 10 to get the volumes back to 1cm^3 when doing that calc. There may be various bugs/problems here too, but the 10 factors up and down are intended in principle, to avoid rollover in some older equations where I didn't use any 64 bit variables.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Toady, with the new screens discerning animals & civilians much clearer will a gremlin's UI as a intelligent-feature-creature finally be cleaned to a usable standard to try and fit in with the rest of the dwarves?)
I doubt any improvement with the steam df graphical would be mega-amazing drastic in a rework on release in this area, but anything that is a bit clearer helps, as well as seeing the said gremlins happyness passively in civilian counts if that can be correlated to how likely they are to go and petition for full labors.
Hmm, I doubt this'll be a high priority sadly. I kind of painted myself into a corner since gremlins are supposed to be able to be pets, so that they can pull levers and cause trouble even more maliciously, rather than being proper civ members, even though they are intelligent. And the game just doesn't support that very well.
Quote from: Bumber
How is the hit rating (not sure what you call it) calculated for logs that fall after a tree is cut? (Edit: It's a value in the projectile struct.)
The value is typically around 1 for the created logs, but I'm not sure what the equation or random number range used is. Falling webs get a value of 0, whereas fired bolts can have a value in the 100's.
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8299585#msg8299585
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8299606#msg8299606
Bumber (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8299887#msg8299887
It's just a roll from 0 to 10 it looks like.
Quote from: alan8325
1. If the siege improvements include some kind of digging ability for invaders, could we expect material properties to play a role in ability to dig a tile? For example could iron blocks block the digging or make it very slow (like several fort mode days per block)?
2. Will the Tactician trait provide benefits to on-map dwarves after the siege improvements?
3. Will we see any basic formations for on-map dwarves in the siege improvements?
1. It'll probably start mattering yeah. I vaguely recollect it taking it into account with door breakage. I'm not sure the same stuff will apply though.
2/3. Dunno! We had passed this up several years ago when I was working on army stuff, and I'm not sure if it will be revisited with the army stuff, or if everything else is going to end up being higher priority still. Formations are certainly up for consideration again.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
How accurate is this page: https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html, as far as planned features goes? Presumably plenty of what's planned isn't listed there, and it isn't accurate about which things are already completed, or what order you're prioritizing what remains; but would some/many of the plans there be scrapped? (even if you don't know the specifics because it's too long to actually check).
What sort of changes if any do you have planned for combat logs for the Premium release?Quote from: Toady One2. Yeah, I only implemented ARG1 through ARG5 because I was being lazy or rushed way back whenever, but the loader of arguments can keep pulling them in.
5. There's a lot going on there and some examples would help me check more quickly.
2. So to clarify (I may be failing in reading comprehension here), would it be possible for us users to define ARG6 and !ARG7 and beyond in our arguments (and pass in those arguments into the body detail plans and creature variations)?
I'm not sure whether by "only implemented ARG1 through ARG5" you're just referring to your own use of them in the files, or if it's that putting in the !ARG7 (in creature variations) and ARG6 (in body detail plans) just won't work (and that the creature can pass in more args, but they get ignored).
5. So this is what I was talking about:Code: [Select][BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:RIB_FALSE:AROUND:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:15]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:RIB_FLOATING:AROUND:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:15]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:RHB:BELOW:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_LOWER:33]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:LHB:BELOW:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_LOWER:33]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:ABOVE:BY_CATEGORY:NOSE]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:THROAT:IN_FRONT:BY_CATEGORY:NECK]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:RCB:ABOVE:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_UPPER:33]
In some cases there is a number given on the end, representing the coverage (according to the wiki), and in other cases there isn't, so I was wondering what difference this would make; like, do some relations require a coverage while others do not accept one, or is it mandatory for some but optional for others, or is the coverage optional in all cases (with some fallback "default" when no coverage is given)?
2. I don't think the others work after you load them.
5. Are there any without the number in BP_RELATION? It should log an error if you leave it off. I didn't find any in b_detail_plan_default.txt. It looks like the number is used by SURROUNDED_BY/AROUND to build the organ pathway for wounds.
Quote from: Su
hi toady. i know you've already said that there will be keyboard support, but i'm worried. one of the best things about df classic is that - with very few exceptions - all of the relevant controls are always displayed on screen. i don't have to remember what exact key to press to be able to designate dig tiles, for example, because it's all shown right there in the side panel. it might be clunky in places, and i still have to remember which submenu things are in, but i never have to be confused about which key to press.
none of the new screens you've shown so far have had keyboard controls displayed. in fact, they look completely unusable with a keyboard to me. they're pretty, to be sure, but if there's no way for me to tell what keyboard keys to press, i'm not going to be able to play anymore. i don't have anywhere near the kind of memory needed to remember so many controls.
are you planing on making a second pass to add keyboard hints, or am i shit out of luck?
DwarfStar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8300404#msg8300404
We've been working on getting the minimum mouse-centered version ready up to this point, so there isn't any keyboard stuff to show at all. There's definitely going to be a second pass on keyboard stuff which'll also be the pass I imagine where we make all those DF Classic decisions about what glyphs to display for buttons and that kind of thing, since classic is also going to have the same level of mouse support. We can't have a large pane that shows all the commands by default, but commands have to be somewhere. I'm not sure if it'll be a popout the way DwarfStar suggests, or something else. There's plenty of room around the edges though, as things currently stand -- I'm sure some of that'll end up being taken up by some new options as we progress, but those spaces will likely end up customizable anyway.
So yeah, I understand why there's concern, since we have nothing to show and some of the screens are pretty busy with mouse stuff, but it should be okay in the end.
Quote from: Spriggans
How is Scamps going ?
I heard him meow on the last youtube video, I was wondering how our beloved cat goes
He is doing well! He's entirely adjusted to the new place. Some of the moving material included a cardboard square, which you can see him sitting in I think in the last steam news video.
Quote from: clinodev
We still see crayon art trickling out!
How many crayon rewards are left, and how long do you estimate before you're finished?
I know it's been answered that the text colors will be user settable. As the colors do not appear to have subsequently changed in Steam Community Updates, the following questions have arisen:
Are you in fact trolling us with the continued dark blue text on dark background?
Is that dark blue your favorite color?
We've drawn all but five, and we've sent all but 50 or so. We should be mailing those out within a week a too. There were around 450-500 of them, and lockdown arrived right when we started, so it has been a journey, but it's almost done!
The text colors are settable in colors.txt in the currently released version. I'm not sure if we'll deviate from that much, though it probably makes sense to have at the minimum one set of colors used for the graphical version and one used for classic. I have a full RGB color setter now, which I use in active tabs to get a nicer brown color, but a lot of the regular text may still be in 16 colors - for the graphical version, the long-term goal would be to move away from this, while it does still seem to fit the aesthetic of Classic. Though we'd of course been talking about expanded the color palette even in Classic because we've been out of combinations for a long while. I'm not sure what course we'll ultimately take there, since Classic could now very easily expand to e.g. a second tile sheet as we'd sometimes talked about in here and elsewhere. The work is all done now to do whatever we want there, though there are other considerations as well, such as print modes and terminal displays and what not that the original ASCII glyphs/colors work with. I dunno. Ultimately it'll be good to have all these options now though.
Presumably an artist should be selecting the colors. I could certainly make the blue brighter myself, but I'd probably pick a blue that isn't very good - it also has to play nice with the existing light blue and the cyans and magentas. But there are lots of hues to go around.
Quote from: Nilsolm
How do dwarves currently decide which meeting area they go to when they're idling? Do they just go to the nearest one they can find or are there some other factors at play?
They check their needs first, and go with a match there. After that, they should respect their burrows and the citizens-allowed flag if applicable, but otherwise they choose randomly. There's some other stuff for guests.
Quote from: Gtyx1
Why don't Outsiders have access to any clothing or Leather armor on the starting page? They can get chain mail and what not but why no clothing or leather?
Are there any plans to have a technology slider or anything? Like on one hand you have stone age, then on the other side you have machine guns and modern clothing
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8300807#msg8300807
Those materials are tied to plants and animals, so they need to be drawn from specific regions. As things got more complicated, the outsider fell behind.
The tech thing ties into the scholar stuff, where the main issue is that the knowledge there covers stuff that's generally not in the game. Once the knowledge forest covers stuff that happens in the game, and gets linked to it, there will be different techs/ages/etc. naturally, though it'll also open up a whole nest of problems.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 02, 2021, 02:36:54 am
:They don't respect burrows properly. If you burrow someone in their nuptial encouragement suite while they happen to be passing through the tavern (or temple, etc.) they'll most likely start socializing in the tavern rather than going to the suite to socialize (in a zone set up there). Presumably the burrow check is performed only of there's a need to make a path to the destination checked.Quote from: NilsolmHow do dwarves currently decide which meeting area they go to when they're idling? Do they just go to the nearest one they can find or are there some other factors at play?
They check their needs first, and go with a match there. After that, they should respect their burrows and the citizens-allowed flag if applicable, but otherwise they choose randomly. There's some other stuff for guests.
:
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 02, 2021, 05:29:06 am
:They don't respect burrows properly. If you burrow someone in their nuptial encouragement suite while they happen to be passing through the tavern (or temple, etc.) they'll most likely start socializing in the tavern rather than going to the suite to socialize (in a zone set up there). Presumably the burrow check is performed only of there's a need to make a path to the destination checked.Quote from: NilsolmHow do dwarves currently decide which meeting area they go to when they're idling? Do they just go to the nearest one they can find or are there some other factors at play?
They check their needs first, and go with a match there. After that, they should respect their burrows and the citizens-allowed flag if applicable, but otherwise they choose randomly. There's some other stuff for guests.
:
Had a extreme case here in this mantis report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10964), where summoning to burrows made them drag their activity way out of the zone without any pause to what they were doing.
Starting with zero goblin civs (set in max starting civs) works. A new gobbo civ will be formed when someone opens up the circus.
Also when there are 0 demons in the w.g configuration and just 'goblins' the entire site-type for dark fortress can become inactive in this way without changing starts, and you can play roulette in choosing a demon-leaderless custom circus-event civ for your full mines of moria experience.
It may be the case that [UNIQUE_DEMON] needs a SOURCE_HFID input to actually connect them to the civ, or other means as random w.g demons (the ones we've always had) always 100% step over player defined ones with hardcoded master positions linking them to the spire raising behaviour at the start, so Toady's advice doesnt actually work in practice and no custom Balrog just yet.
Post by: Mobbstar on August 02, 2021, 06:36:40 am
Anything that changes the composition of histfigs would have an impact, since it draws from that pool. Are these worlds dominated by elves? I haven't been able to reproduce these caretaker/herbalist migrant waves. I suppose there could be some weird situation like the children of artists creating a bias, if there are more elven artists and thus a draw from the performance troupes?
I have a world (47.4) which had this, so out of curiosity i went back to check for elven meddling. No relation to performance troupes or artists, but sure enough, there are two forest retreats with many dwarves in it (each >200 dwarves, out of each ~1000 residents) and all the herbalist and animal caretaker migrants lived there at some point. The elven civilisation is big and had an alliance with the dwarven civ throughout worldgen, but for some reason war broke out during Fort mode.
So, the migrant skill problems are seemingly caused by dwarves living in elven civs in general.
Are dwarves from other civs meant to join player fortresses? They just show up there and quietly declare themselves members of a different nation? Are they alliance visa, or war refugees?
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 02, 2021, 06:47:38 am
Anything that changes the composition of histfigs would have an impact, since it draws from that pool. Are these worlds dominated by elves? I haven't been able to reproduce these caretaker/herbalist migrant waves. I suppose there could be some weird situation like the children of artists creating a bias, if there are more elven artists and thus a draw from the performance troupes?
I have a world (47.4) which had this, so out of curiosity i went back to check for elven meddling. No relation to performance troupes or artists, but sure enough, there are two forest retreats with many dwarves in it (each >200 dwarves, out of each ~1000 residents) and all the herbalist and animal caretaker migrants lived there at some point. The elven civilisation is big and had an alliance with the dwarven civ throughout worldgen, but for some reason war broke out during Fort mode.
So, the migrant skill problems are seemingly caused by dwarves living in elven civs in general.
Are dwarves from other civs meant to join player fortresses? They just show up there and quietly declare themselves members of a different nation? Are they alliance visa, or war refugees?
Apprenticeships let them skip over the borders, perhaps its a back and forth link that elves dominate the guild by being more naturally inclined to do it with unlimited lifespans, and so dwarves with any sort of inclination due to loving craft-guilds for upholding their tradition & craftmanship seek them out, do their time working under their tuition and return with the heads full of elf nonsense.
Post by: Nilsolm on August 02, 2021, 08:03:21 am
I have a world (47.4) which had this, so out of curiosity i went back to check for elven meddling. No relation to performance troupes or artists, but sure enough, there are two forest retreats with many dwarves in it (each >200 dwarves, out of each ~1000 residents) and all the herbalist and animal caretaker migrants lived there at some point. The elven civilisation is big and had an alliance with the dwarven civ throughout worldgen, but for some reason war broke out during Fort mode.
So, the migrant skill problems are seemingly caused by dwarves living in elven civs in general.
Are dwarves from other civs meant to join player fortresses? They just show up there and quietly declare themselves members of a different nation? Are they alliance visa, or war refugees?
Now that you mention it, I recall at least two instances where the flood of herbalists and caretakers started after war broke out with the elves.
One other thing I'm wondering about is why we always get those two professions. Unless I'm misunderstanding the raws, there are more than just two career paths in an elven village, but I've never seen clothiers or woodcrafters arriving from the elves. Maybe it has something to do with guilds as FantasticDorf says, since I don't recall this issue happening before 47.01.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 04, 2021, 02:19:12 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorfToady, with the new screens discerning animals & civilians much clearer will a gremlin's UI as a intelligent-feature-creature finally be cleaned to a usable standard to try and fit in with the rest of the dwarves?)
I doubt any improvement with the steam df graphical would be mega-amazing drastic in a rework on release in this area, but anything that is a bit clearer helps, as well as seeing the said gremlins happyness passively in civilian counts if that can be correlated to how likely they are to go and petition for full labors.
Hmm, I doubt this'll be a high priority sadly. I kind of painted myself into a corner since gremlins are supposed to be able to be pets, so that they can pull levers and cause trouble even more maliciously, rather than being proper civ members, even though they are intelligent. And the game just doesn't support that very well.
The game does however allow children of pets, if they were born intelligent, to be assigned labors, rooms, squads, noble positions etc, and includes them under the cirizens tab. I know because I've used unintelligent pets in a rare caste to give birth to a frequent caste of intelligent children to pump up my citizen count artificially. Is it possible to enable these things on all pets that are intelligent? The game seems to already recognize them if they're born into your fort, but not tamed on site or bought from a caravan. Gremlins and trolls brought on embark (by civs that allow them) and pets that gain intelligence through a syndrome automatically self-assign labors they're skilled in and hauling/cleaning/construction labors, but the UI elements to assign labors yourself never appear unless they're born into the fort and intelligent from birth, making them a citizen that carries the (TAME) flag around their whole life. So from personal experience it looks like a UI element not getting turned on/off rather than additional issues.
Also, I've never seen gremlins do their mischievous thing once tamed. Whether brought on embark, bought from a caravan, or caught and tamed on-site, they either do their default labors, or hang out in meeting halls. I suspect that something is broken there.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 04, 2021, 03:40:56 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorfToady, with the new screens discerning animals & civilians much clearer will a gremlin's UI as a intelligent-feature-creature finally be cleaned to a usable standard to try and fit in with the rest of the dwarves?)
I doubt any improvement with the steam df graphical would be mega-amazing drastic in a rework on release in this area, but anything that is a bit clearer helps, as well as seeing the said gremlins happyness passively in civilian counts if that can be correlated to how likely they are to go and petition for full labors.
Hmm, I doubt this'll be a high priority sadly. I kind of painted myself into a corner since gremlins are supposed to be able to be pets, so that they can pull levers and cause trouble even more maliciously, rather than being proper civ members, even though they are intelligent. And the game just doesn't support that very well.
The game does however allow children of pets, if they were born intelligent, to be assigned labors, rooms, squads, noble positions etc, and includes them under the cirizens tab. I know because I've used unintelligent pets in a rare caste to give birth to a frequent caste of intelligent children to pump up my citizen count artificially. Is it possible to enable these things on all pets that are intelligent? The game seems to already recognize them if they're born into your fort, but not tamed on site or bought from a caravan. Gremlins and trolls brought on embark (by civs that allow them) and pets that gain intelligence through a syndrome automatically self-assign labors they're skilled in and hauling/cleaning/construction labors, but the UI elements to assign labors yourself never appear unless they're born into the fort and intelligent from birth, making them a citizen that carries the (TAME) flag around their whole life. So from personal experience it looks like a UI element not getting turned on/off rather than additional issues.
Thats a lot of green. If you dont mind ill take this apart piece by piece.
I know because I've used unintelligent pets in a rare caste to give birth to a frequent caste of intelligent children to pump up my citizen count artificially.
Is it possible to enable these things on all pets that are intelligent? The game seems to already recognize them if they're born into your fort, but not tamed on site or bought from a caravan.
Its convenient for sure if you try to make a multi-creature civilization by using a not full intelligent caste which can be imported (or even the genesis of the entire race for being no_gender asexuals to step around the historical culling rules), like "immigrants" of humans or other races.
On a side note, there are DFhack scripts like earthling mod's script which can offer something to both of your replies via the smartpets.lua (releases labor controls) and *cough*[enlavement_earthling.lua]*cough* that tries to draw in long-requested mechanics on breaking in creatures by measuring the amount of time they resist on a restraint to their level of willpower attribute, although Id say what you want to use it for would probably be best exercised in editing your script until the parameters feel comfortable for you.
(The scripts are meant to be used together, as when the conversion occurs, it fills in a histfig file for that unit, which is identical to being born on site matrilineally by historical parents, but smartpets.lua refreshes often enough to pick up on creatures from other sources.)
Also, I've never seen gremlins do their mischievous thing once tamed. Whether brought on embark, bought from a caravan, or caught and tamed on-site, they either do their default labors, or hang out in meeting halls. I suspect that something is broken there.
Dwarves are well behaved (most of the time, Quietust recently debunked beserk dwarves pulling levers), i don't think there is a need to create mischeif that could stipulate that behaviour if its set entirely at the animal-level. Though that would be a very interesting and rare personality need to see!
Post by: Eric Blank on August 04, 2021, 04:53:38 pm
Intelligent pets are a weird subject. I've used a few variations of it for Spellcrafts as workarounds for not employing dfhack (I don't want the mod to have additional dependencies) like unintelligent pets giving birth to intelligent ones in lieu of summoning mechanics (which we now have!), and familiars, which are born unintelligent and use an interaction on themselves granting themselves intelligence. I did that to make them a companion for wizards, but they also as a bonus haul and collect eggs and build walls, which I didn't expect. Gremlins will on embark bring a crossbow and start hunting, sometimes they arrive with other labors, like the ones brought by caravans often have professions which they'll perform.
I haven't used dfhack much recently, I've been focused on the expanded interaction mechanics, which have become very powerful indeed.
But like I said, labors and such appear to be fully functional for intelligent pets, except the UI element allowing you to assign them never shows up, unless they were born on-site, which appears to make them full fledged citizens.
Do those scripts grant them citizenship in the faction or tick that is_dward flag or what? I know there's another script that switches visitors and invaders faction membership so they join your fort too.
Post by: Doorkeeper on August 04, 2021, 11:59:16 pm
Quote from: Silverwing235Regarding kobolds and certain of their currently bizarre impulses - bizarre for a "context-based sublanguage",that is, to give a summary:
According to legends mode, kobolds may construct a market and a dungeon in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structures resembling such in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.
...which do you think it is? Thanks, anyway.
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8258379#msg8258379
Yeah, Urlance is correct there - we just haven't supported everything on the monster maps. I think the code cuts them off from libraries? I hope so... there's a further complication that the 'market' flag is overloaded now to signify important sites. I'm not sure what motivated them to build a dungeon though, ha ha.
The summary is from the wiki, on the article about kobold caves. I added this information back when I first noticed them in legends (see screenshots) and was confused by it...initially believed them to be a hidden feature. I think I understand why they occur now: certain site types don't support certain structures. Certain entity flags generate them anyway (or rather, in this case, no flags that prohibit kobolds from making trade links exist?). These structures technically exist, but don't physically appear on map. (Though associated occupations still spawn; I recall long ago encountering a goblin tavern keeper running amok in a dark fortress. As mentioned by Urlance, goblin taverns are another "legends-only" structure.)
However, the dungeon bit was added in later by another editor. I personally have never seen kobolds construct dungeons, and I have experimented this for quite a bit.. so I will chalk it up as player error or misinterpretation. Kobold dungeons do not exist.
Spoiler: legends screenshots (click to show/hide)
I've since removed that bit from the wiki—removed the whole segment. It's an unintended glitch with no noticeable effect on gameplay, and really easy to miss. Not worth mentioning on the article. Belongs on the tracker, maybe.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 05, 2021, 06:57:57 am
Do those scripts grant them citizenship in the faction or tick that is_dward flag or what? I know there's another script that switches visitors and invaders faction membership so they join your fort too.
It incorporates bits of that when dealing with prisoners on a chain but when dealing with creatures caught from the wilderness it runs some checks and ultimately determines whether they have a false value under trying to retrieve a 'Nemesis' (and other stuff to rule out improper creatures) and edit the field using DFhacks -createunit scripts. I assume visitors who apply for citizenship already have nemesis histfig files other than the odd "Tame Goblin" you sometimes see reported.
Which you might remember being part of a bug Toady tried fixing a long time ago (0.31.03 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1371) to 44.07 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10649)) which improper allocation and loss of Nemesis data fields on full-citizens caused crashes but apparently regenerates in 44.06'ish. Presumably all animals besides civ intelligents are shut off or else this kind of crash would be more open to happening and puts them to the side as non historical until they use tags like local pops becoming adventurers.
Quote
- And indeed reportedly on that mod-script, when you put a semi-intelligent in charge of a squad it will crash, because it contradicts that semi-intelligents can't lead squads in fortress mode, which must be a hard-code defined thing
On the topic, if animals as mounts and companions were to expect more scope for fortress mode and w.g as a whole (ei army arc dedicated cavalry), would the current distinction of non-histfig animals logic end up being changed eventually to create historical and non-historical populations?
EI - The named horses and animals are found in the stables but all the strays still linger around with a more even distribution on w.g of how animals are represented / dwarves bonding with their mounts or giant ridable housecats choose who can ride on their backs.
Post by: Quizumba on August 05, 2021, 07:15:30 am
Thanks in advance and I wish you all shiny cut gems our dwarfs can find.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 05, 2021, 07:37:51 am
Oh Toady the greatest of toads, There is by any chance add a FORCE dig option (explanation dig even if there is damp location) for our tiny dwarfs? sometimes I want to dig through an aquifer location without having to remake the tile to dig again.
Thanks in advance and I wish you all shiny cut gems our dwarfs can find.
Questions in lime green please. By "Change Color" in the top right of the edit box or [.color=limegreen] with a [./color] (minus .) surrounding text.
Post by: Uthimienure on August 05, 2021, 10:18:11 am
(Sorry, but for some reason I couldn't log in to the Bug Tracker to search for this.)
Post by: Egan_BW on August 05, 2021, 11:42:00 am
Questions in lime green please. By "Change Color" in the top right of the edit box or [.color=limegreen] with a [./color] (minus .) surrounding text.
BTW if you want to give examples of bbcode, you can use the [nobbc] tag to show exactly what needs to be typed into the message. :)
[color=limegreen][/color]
☝
Post by: Bumber on August 05, 2021, 12:25:54 pm
Oh Toady the greatest of toads, There is by any chance add a FORCE dig option (explanation dig even if there is damp location) for our tiny dwarfs? sometimes I want to dig through an aquifer location without having to remake the tile to dig again.
Thanks in advance and I wish you all shiny cut gems our dwarfs can find.
This is really a suggestion rather than a question. I know for certain this idea has already been suggested in the appropriate forum section, so it'll happen when it happens.
Post by: Uthimienure on August 10, 2021, 11:04:34 am
I can picture myself turning it off briefly as a way to confirm what I'm seeing, especially with ramps/slopes (fairly often until getting the hang of the new graphics).
Post by: clinodev on August 10, 2021, 04:46:03 pm
Will the new multi-z-layer display be toggleable? Can we turn it off and see just one z-level at a time?
I can picture myself turning it off briefly as a way to confirm what I'm seeing, especially with ramps/slopes (fairly often until getting the hang of the new graphics).
Meph has said elsewhere (reddit, a while ago) that while there were no settings at that time, it was intended that the user would be able to set the additional depth shown over a range, including zero.
While the current TWBT implementation is neat sometimes, it's not universally popular, so this was very good news. I keep it off myself, to aid in building floor spans across crevices, etc. It's neat on the surface, but underground, especially in forts with multi-z structures, it can be very confusing.
Post by: Uthimienure on August 11, 2021, 07:14:47 am
...snip...Agreed. When I first tried TWBT it was "wow" and then the confusion was a problem along with crashes and so I play without TWBT or graphics and find it's the best way for me. No eye-candy to distract me from the pure beauty of the game itself.
While the current TWBT implementation is neat sometimes, it's not universally popular, so this was very good news. I keep it off myself, to aid in building floor spans across crevices, etc. It's neat on the surface, but underground, especially in forts with multi-z structures, it can be very confusing.
Post by: voliol on August 11, 2021, 06:12:19 pm
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 12, 2021, 02:33:33 am
The ”before posting a suggestion” guidelines on the suggestions board (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) link to the old outdated consolidated development page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html), which feels suboptimal. I’m not sure if there is a better place for this, so I’m posting this here to make sure Toady sees it.
On this note, is that old development page accurate in that while it's probably incomplete and not in the planned order, everything on it is still planned to be done eventually, or would some features have been scrapped?
Post by: Urist McSadist on August 12, 2021, 05:39:48 am
2.Sorry if this is too much of a suggestion, but it's kind of a bummer how colosseums and skulls on pedestals do nothing but give your people trauma (especially when playing a modded race like goblins). Are there any plans to change that in the near future, maybe taking certain traits like cruelty into account?
3.Are we going to see Adventure mode ai improvements before the big wait? It's pretty silly how I can murder innocent villagers one by one and all they do is cry and spit on me.
4.I remember you mentioned adoption being added in the near future. Is this going to allow gay/asexual figures to get heirs?
5.Dungeon Masters don't do much right now. What exactly are they planned to do once the villain update is over?
6.Are we going to see more flexible magic system? IE systems that let you create your own spells?
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 12, 2021, 06:47:21 am
1.When are we going to actually see festivals during gameplay?
Patience :). About festival content, toady's already given a reply about festivals in the last FotF which would help you out.
Quote from: ToadyOne
Quote from: Eric Blank1)You mentioned gambling problems. What are dwarves actually gambling on? Can they gamble on the outcomes of WG festivities/tournaments? Or is it just abstract board/card games for now?1) He he he, unspecified. Given what we have, it's most likely those festival competitions, yeah. I may add some flavor specifics yet, if I get a chance to revisit before release.
Celebrations, gambling, random generated food and the like were all kind of queued for the tavern arc (another unresolved arc), as when it happens post the steam arc or beyond which importantly has to happen for financial reasons and after-calibration of making the steam ver stable.
2.Sorry if this is too much of a suggestion, but it's kind of a bummer how colosseums and skulls on pedestals do nothing but give your people trauma (especially when playing a modded race like goblins). Are there any plans to change that in the near future, maybe taking certain traits like cruelty into account?
It is a suggestion, but i do sympathise with you on this, i can't even memorialized the inorganic severed arm of a forgotten beast which really should have been a mighty trophy given the lives that were lost trying to claim it without dwarves feeling quite squeamish. But the relief is that in the current DF version dwarves can become much more nulled, so having a bit of fear with the odd morbid decoration around the fortress can help you prepare them for the very very scary things like mounds of bodies without breaking their minds by throwing them in at the deep end.
That's my way of looking at it anyway, toughening up your goblins to it with terror 101 would be recommended for any other grisly work they do.
3.Are we going to see Adventure mode ai improvements before the big wait? It's pretty silly how I can murder innocent villagers one by one and all they do is cry and spit on me.
Even if Toady recognizes it is silly (like monster hunters) im not sure he's actually spoken about topics like that recently, the reputation system is a bit of a fudge in when it works and doesnt like people running up to you and calling your a murderer for killing a giant they asked you to in a quest, but if there's a change to behaviour it'll probably happen as a rework. That's probably leaping to around the time of the Law arc after the army & big wait ((magic arc and map-rewrite)) so that entities are capable of understanding shifting entity politics and other subjects, so very very far away.
45.Dungeon Masters don't do much right now. What exactly are they planned to do once the villain update is over?They have the intrigue tokens and handle animals, i dont know what the latter animal handling might do in the future (in the 2d past, dungeon masters were the only people responsible for taming exotics) and as up to of recently they're your spymasters.
A interesting thing to do is set your spymaster up as a tavern-keeper and they'll probe people while they're all inebriated and loose lipped about what they're really up to (which seems a exploit but only the alcohol is responsible for any misgiving here). I do remember some discussions that they might in the future of the villian arc being revisted and loose ends tied up, be the figureheads who enable instigating the fortresses own plots and counter intelligence using screen we can see but not interact with yet.
6.Are we going to see more flexible magic system? IE systems that let you create your own spells?
Really one for Toady, we only have pre-set and prepared secrets/interactions etc we can use because the game loads this information up at the time, post-gen in game procedural magic forms would be probably not as game intended.
EI - You cast a cloud levitation spell but you've mixed in to make the cloud out of flames, since you're a xth level wizard this turns you into a living sun and you burn everything to a crisp within render distance as you float on by. Its really morrowind fortify intelligence potion to infinity level shenanigans, and out of what we do know about proposed magic arc concepts is that magic will have a consequence most of the time, and extremely powerful magic as a result would probably severely dehabilitate/kill the caster or significantly change something else, like a big disturbance in the magic-force that causes a disaster.
Post by: LordL on August 12, 2021, 11:03:07 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 12, 2021, 11:10:09 am
What if players will have some limited access to legends right during their fortress/adventure runs that will only allow viewing events that are known to the player? This would really bring joy of discovery and some order to the information you know (especially useful in adventure mode)?I believe the past answer for the question about limited knowledge is that it's quite costly to keep track of who knows what and to disseminate knowledge to people properly, so if you ask A about something today they won't know much, but tomorrow, after speaking to B, they know a bit more, but still not everything.
My guess is that the meta info of keeping track of who knows what easily can outweigh the actual information itself, and Legends info can be quite substantial.
Edit: Question raised by the labor changes reported.
I don't understand how "...but the jobs will be done by anybody available, starting with the most talented." can work unless most of the work force is unassigned to any "real" job. In the current system dorfs select posted jobs as they become available for new jobs, unless unoccupied when the job is posted. Without changes to that logic, the talented dorfs will almost always get the next job in a workshop taken by somebody else, unless the current "finished job. Wander away for 10 or so steps before taking a new one" behavior is changed so dorfs now either kick the unskilled out, or grab the next job immediately. Any comments on how this will work?
On the positive potential side, does need satisfaction factor into the job selection process, such that those who desperately want to craft something get a higher priority than the usual riffraff?
Post by: LordL on August 13, 2021, 02:39:07 pm
Well there is already a menu that has a list of events, people, sites, artifacts, etc. that you are aware of but you can only use it to find these things on the world map. I think it would be great to have more information about them immediately available so that these things become actually meaningful and immersive.What if players will have some limited access to legends right during their fortress/adventure runs that will only allow viewing events that are known to the player? This would really bring joy of discovery and some order to the information you know (especially useful in adventure mode)?I believe the past answer for the question about limited knowledge is that it's quite costly to keep track of who knows what and to disseminate knowledge to people properly, so if you ask A about something today they won't know much, but tomorrow, after speaking to B, they know a bit more, but still not everything.
My guess is that the meta info of keeping track of who knows what easily can outweigh the actual information itself, and Legends info can be quite substantial.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 13, 2021, 03:24:32 pm
That's on the fortress level, rather than the individual one, requiring a lot less memory to keep track of the state of the single fortress entity. It can be noted that engravings can reveal a lot of info not otherwise available (again, because knowledge about events isn't tracked).Well there is already a menu that has a list of events, people, sites, artifacts, etc. that you are aware of but you can only use it to find these things on the world map. I think it would be great to have more information about them immediately available so that these things become actually meaningful and immersive.What if players will have some limited access to legends right during their fortress/adventure runs that will only allow viewing events that are known to the player? This would really bring joy of discovery and some order to the information you know (especially useful in adventure mode)?I believe the past answer for the question about limited knowledge is that it's quite costly to keep track of who knows what and to disseminate knowledge to people properly, so if you ask A about something today they won't know much, but tomorrow, after speaking to B, they know a bit more, but still not everything.
My guess is that the meta info of keeping track of who knows what easily can outweigh the actual information itself, and Legends info can be quite substantial.
Post by: tonnot98 on August 15, 2021, 01:41:13 pm
What is the biggest embark size that you expect to be stable by the 1.0.0 release? Do you think it might be greater than the current maximum possible of 16x16?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 15, 2021, 04:07:28 pm
The 1.0.0 release is decades away. It won't be larger than 16*16 before the Myth & Magic arc, and it remains to be seen if the bugs affecting 16*16 will get prioritized before then. The map rewrite included in the first Myth & Magic release ought to lay the groundwork for additional map feature placements and sizes (by avoiding the introduction of restrictions that aren't deemed necessary), but whether anything of that is actually going to be used for embarks probably remains to be seen.
What is the biggest embark size that you expect to be stable by the 1.0.0 release? Do you think it might be greater than the current maximum possible of 16x16?
Post by: Urist mcOverusedJoke on August 15, 2021, 05:10:55 pm
Spoiler: Magic spoilers (click to show/hide)
I don't want to build any unrealistic expectations for myself but the hype train is real.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 15, 2021, 05:54:13 pm
there are goals other than "immortality" that are valid for secrets. Given that they currently do nothing, unlike the Immortality goal, are there any plans to make these functional after/during the Myth and Magic "arc", or are they sort of placeholders for something bigger? Or maybe placeholders for a a kind of "primitive" magic system?
There's probably no reason to hiding it inside a spoiler, its public knowledge that necromancers have a particular life-goal motivation since Toady talked about making it work in the first movements towards the villian system so that necromancers get the apprentices and agents together to expand their schemes/launder money to buy a tower property until they're ready to strike.
- You can make a sedentary custom-necromancer who makes zombies as a hobby and never does anything as modders have found out by inputting necromancer interaction secrets in the wrong order, showing that the behaviour is entirely hardcoded to trigger in a specific set of steps that don't apply to any of the others.
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 19, 2021, 06:29:03 am
For example, penguin men start out like this:
Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:PENGUIN MAN]
[COPY_TAGS_FROM:BIRD_PENGUIN]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:ANIMAL_PERSON]
[GO_TO_TAG:BODY]
[CV_REMOVE_TAG:BODY]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BODY:HUMANOID_NECK:2EYES:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:GIZZARD:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:4FINGERS:4TOES:BEAK:TONGUE:RIBCAGE]
[APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION]Why couldn't [CV_REMOVE_TAG:BODY] and the [CV_ADD_TAG:BODY:...] just be applied immediately one after the other automatically? As far as I can tell, [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:ANIMAL_PERSON] is applied instantly, it's just the manual "inside the creature definition" creature variation tokens that need APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION.
Also, why does CV_ADD_TAG need to exist anyway? If BODY has already been removed, surely it could just be re-added directly as [BODY:...], and the same for every other possible tag that could be added?
Post by: voliol on August 19, 2021, 07:45:49 am
Post by: squamous on August 20, 2021, 03:21:24 pm
1. Are there any plans for larger cities than currently exist? Something like huge metropoli akin to Rome or Constantinople for example, taking up multiple world tiles.
2. Moving fortresses/fortress parts have been mentioned, but are there any plans to eventually add mechanisms for things like airships in addition to sea vessels and the like?
3. I've heard that there are plans for ruined civilizations and such. Are there plans for modders to be able to make ruins of their own, with custom loot/squatters/monsters?
Post by: voliol on August 20, 2021, 03:29:27 pm
2. Moving fortresses/fortress parts have been mentioned, but are there any plans to eventually add mechanisms for things like airships in addition to sea vessels and the like?At least one of Threetoe’s stories has a flying castle in it. I don’t know what the stance on aerodynamics and balloons and the like is, but at least the magic path should be accessible at some point to those who wish to make fortresses and fleets in the sky.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 20, 2021, 05:32:34 pm
Quote
1) Ill quickly say that anecdotally i've set up small taverns to ensure visitation inside hospitals by friends and loved ones, and keeping the alcohol tap flowing for the benefit of longer term residents. Since this would be awkward to overlap with two occupation zones, will there be any degree of revision change of the hospital's "rules" if nessescary to discriminate between public and private hospitals?
2) Is there a expected "flow", prioritizing fortress mode outwards into adventure and worldgen in mind or will each area for medicine affected by this occupation zone and permancy change be respectfully stalled to their appropriate arcs after the big wait?
Though i wonder how many visitors would willingly let your dwarves do surgery on them if they had heard about your inhouse hospital. Its not like they can pay you for your trouble, so im not sure what a player could even possibly get out of it besides their imparted gratitude and that character lives to survive another day. A good deed in high places makes all the difference i suppose.
Post by: FrankVill on August 21, 2021, 07:17:35 am
Post by: Untelligent on August 22, 2021, 09:57:21 am
With the new labour system, is there an easier way to prevent e.g. miners from doing non-mining jobs, than from making every work detail selected-dwarfs-only, and then assigning every dwarf that isn't a miner to every not-mining work detail?
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 25, 2021, 09:37:17 am
Code: [Select]
[CV_CONVERT_TAG]
[CVCT_MASTER:BODY]
[CVCT_TARGET:BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]
[CVCT_REPLACEMENT:HUMANOID_NECK:3FINGERS]In actuality `BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK` are the very first 2 arguments in BODY everywhere this pair is used, and they are beside each other, but in principle, do they have to be directly beside each other to be detected and replaced? Like, would this be detected here?:
Code: [Select]
[BODY:BASIC_2PARTBODY:FRONT_BODY_FLIPPERS:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]Or does it need to be immediately consecutive?
Post by: voliol on August 25, 2021, 10:47:07 am
How does CV_CONVERT_TAG work with target selection? That is, take this example:Code: [Select][CV_CONVERT_TAG]In actuality `BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK` are the very first 2 arguments in BODY everywhere this pair is used, and they are beside each other, but in principle, do they have to be directly beside each other to be detected and replaced? Like, would this be detected here?:
[CVCT_MASTER:BODY]
[CVCT_TARGET:BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]
[CVCT_REPLACEMENT:HUMANOID_NECK:3FINGERS]Code: [Select][BODY:BASIC_2PARTBODY:FRONT_BODY_FLIPPERS:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]Or does it need to be immediately consecutive?
They need to be immediately consecutive, or rather it's a plain text-replace.
So you can do
Code: [Select]
[DESCRIPTION:This is an example creature. It is ATTRIBUTE_STRING. Very, very ATTRIBUTE_STRING]
[CV_CONVERT_TAG]
[CVCT_MASTER:DESCRIPTION]
[CVCT_TARGET:ATTRIBUTE_STRING]
[CVCT_REPLACEMENT:fast]
[APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION]and getCode: [Select]
[DESCRIPTION:This is an example creature. It is fast. Very, very fast.]I don't know the answer to the second one, but there's a lot of modding knowledge floating around the community which is poorly or not written down at all. Asking first in one of the modding threads is always better because it 1. offloads Toady, 2. probably gets you a quicker answer, and 3. brings up the topic in case it is under-researched, and the subsequent !science! can either solve the issue and advance modding, or home in on a less broad question which is quicker for Toady to read through and answer.
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 25, 2021, 11:40:17 am
I don't know the answer to the second one, but there's a lot of modding knowledge floating around the community which is poorly or not written down at all. Asking first in one of the modding threads is always better because it 1. offloads Toady, 2. probably gets you a quicker answer, and 3. brings up the topic in case it is under-researched, and the subsequent !science! can either solve the issue and advance modding, or home in on a less broad question which is quicker for Toady to read through and answer.
Fair enough, this makes sense; I should probably edit that question out then?
Post by: voliol on August 25, 2021, 01:08:14 pm
I don't know the answer to the second one, but there's a lot of modding knowledge floating around the community which is poorly or not written down at all. Asking first in one of the modding threads is always better because it 1. offloads Toady, 2. probably gets you a quicker answer, and 3. brings up the topic in case it is under-researched, and the subsequent !science! can either solve the issue and advance modding, or home in on a less broad question which is quicker for Toady to read through and answer.
Fair enough, this makes sense; I should probably edit that question out then?
Yeah, I would say so.
Post by: Su on August 26, 2021, 10:27:09 pm
does dwarf fortress do anything like this already, or have you considered the technique? we recall there being something in one of the update posts a while back that sounded you were suffering from this problem.
Post by: Mobbstar on August 27, 2021, 03:56:07 am
hi toady! bit of an unusual question today - we've been watching/reading this talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4b--cyXEsM) [from the 2020 virtual Roguelike Celebration] on using hash functions instead of using rand() to randomly decide things, so that rng calls won't be affected by earlier calls. it's very interesting.
does dwarf fortress do anything like this already, or have you considered the technique? we recall there being something in one of the update posts a while back that sounded you were suffering from this problem.
May I enlighten you to srand(), the function that takes an uint to do exactly this? It sets a "seed" for rand() and thereby it will always generate the same sequence of random numbers.
Advanced world parameters already do this! There's a seed for geography, one for history, etc. To my knowledge, there are no seeds used in Fortress or Adventurer mode.
Post by: Su on August 27, 2021, 01:26:10 pm
hi toady! bit of an unusual question today - we've been watching/reading this talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4b--cyXEsM) [from the 2020 virtual Roguelike Celebration] on using hash functions instead of using rand() to randomly decide things, so that rng calls won't be affected by earlier calls. it's very interesting.
does dwarf fortress do anything like this already, or have you considered the technique? we recall there being something in one of the update posts a while back that sounded you were suffering from this problem.
May I enlighten you to srand(), the function that takes an uint to do exactly this? It sets a "seed" for rand() and thereby it will always generate the same sequence of random numbers.
Advanced world parameters already do this! There's a seed for geography, one for history, etc. To my knowledge, there are no seeds used in Fortress or Adventurer mode.
we believe you may have misunderstood - if a call to rand() is placed before another call to rand(), the sequence will be shifted along.
consider the following scenario: a call to the rng to determine, say, the qualities of a religion, and then a call to determine the outcome of a battle. if a new call is inserted between these two, say to implement a new worldgen feature, the sequence will be shifted along - meaning that the outcome of the battle could be completely changed, even if the new feature had nothing to do with the military and happened halfway across the world. hashing avoids this problem.
unless you mean calling srand every single time you make a call to rand() - but at that point you've basically reinvented the hash function.
Post by: DwarfStar on August 27, 2021, 02:05:39 pm
srand, though, is a particularly bad way to explain that concept since it only has a single static/global state. But you could do it if your compiler speaks C++11.
https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/numeric/random
In DF I’d wager they have their own random classes since they’ve been dealing with this issue before those functions. Those could be converted over to the new standard ones, but there’s little benefit to changing.
Post by: lethosor on August 28, 2021, 03:28:08 pm
The simple switch up to SDL2 makes the most sense first.
This is something that could potentially be good for pack/mod/utility maintainers to plan for (including myself), and I haven't been able to turn up another recent reference to this change, so I thought I would ask here just to clarify for those of us who it would affect:
Are you planning to upgrade DF to SDL 2 (or has it happened already)?
Post by: Mr Crabman on September 01, 2021, 08:17:50 am
For the dragon/constrained randomizer, do you have any idea at this stage how descriptions would work? Currently descriptions for most creatures are manually entered into the raws, and for procgen creatures follow a hardcoded format for certain bodily traits and abilities.
But if dragon variations are to be exposed to the raws, presumably just 1 description couldn't cover all possible dragons without being extremely vague, but hardcoded means of generating descriptions seem a bit tricky to pull off in terms of how to neatly describe important features without describing too much, and in a bland manner (ie being too "anatomical/clinical" or repetitive, and lacking in flavor like many of the manual descriptions currently have), especially if the constrained randomizing functionality isn't tied to dragons/is expanded to other creatures.
To an extent this also applies to other procgen stuff planned to be exposed to/manipulable in the raws at a later point in some way, and because of how after myth and magic, a lot more creatures in a world may potentially be randomly generated.
EDIT: Same sort of question also goes for prefstrings.
Also, why is it that only integers seem to be used in the raws for everything? I don't think any numbers use decimal points as far as I can tell.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 01, 2021, 01:37:52 pm
Add to that the mess caused by CPUs using different number of bits for calculations with the resulting non reproducible results across different architectures and you need a compelling reason to abandon the relative stability of integer math.
It doesn't exactly help that high level assembly language (a.k.a. C(++)) doesn't specify the size of its "standard" units, so you either have to roll your own or have the result differ on different architectures.
Post by: Mr Crabman on September 01, 2021, 04:03:39 pm
Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:GIANT_TOAD]
[COPY_TAGS_FROM:TOAD]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:GIANT]
[CV_REMOVE_TAG:CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC]
[APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION]
[GO_TO_END]
[SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
[CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC:100700]
[GO_TO_START]
[NAME:giant toad:giant toads:giant toad]
[CASTE_NAME:giant toad:giant toads:giant toad]
[DESCRIPTION:A huge monster in the shape of a toad.]
[POPULATION_NUMBER:10:20]
[CLUSTER_NUMBER:1:1]
[CREATURE_TILE:'T']
[COLOR:2:0:0]
[PET_EXOTIC]
[PETVALUE:500]
[MOUNT_EXOTIC]
[GO_TO_END]
[PREFSTRING:beauty]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_WALK_CRAWL_GAITS:3512:2634:1756:878:4900:6900] 10 kph
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_CRAWLING_GAITS:9000:8900:8825:8775:9500:9900] 1 kph
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_SWIMMING_GAITS:9000:8900:8825:8775:9500:9900] 1 kphHere you SELECT_CASTE:ALL, and then add one token, and then go back to the stat to add a bunch more tokens, and back to the end again.
But why is this? To my knowledge, the very start of the object is treated as the ALL caste already, so it doesn't seem like it makes a functional difference whether these tokens are at the start of the object, or at the end inside SELECT_CASTE:ALL, and it doesn't seem to serve a clear stylistic purpose either; my only guess is that maybe you look at the end resulting raw object after these commands have been processed, and so you get to see those tokens actually look at the top like with all "normal" creatures.
Post by: Toady One on September 01, 2021, 06:38:32 pm
Quote from: Mobbstar
Are dwarves from other civs meant to join player fortresses? They just show up there and quietly declare themselves members of a different nation? Are they alliance visa, or war refugees?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8301122#msg8301122
Nilsolm: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8301131#msg8301131
So it looks like it pulls historical migrants from the player's civ only, unless they are vampires. But these herbalist etc. migrants that are showing - were they not members of the player's dwarf civ? Were they ever members? It's hard to see how they get on the list it's pulling from if not, but if it's happening it's happening. The intended behavior is to not even have dwarf migrants from other dwarf civs (although like others they'd be allowed as tavern visitors and then get in through petition.)
Quote from: Eric Blank
The game does however allow children of pets, if they were born intelligent, to be assigned labors, rooms, squads, noble positions etc, and includes them under the cirizens tab. I know because I've used unintelligent pets in a rare caste to give birth to a frequent caste of intelligent children to pump up my citizen count artificially. Is it possible to enable these things on all pets that are intelligent? The game seems to already recognize them if they're born into your fort, but not tamed on site or bought from a caravan. Gremlins and trolls brought on embark (by civs that allow them) and pets that gain intelligence through a syndrome automatically self-assign labors they're skilled in and hauling/cleaning/construction labors, but the UI elements to assign labors yourself never appear unless they're born into the fort and intelligent from birth, making them a citizen that carries the (TAME) flag around their whole life. So from personal experience it looks like a UI element not getting turned on/off rather than additional issues.
Also, I've never seen gremlins do their mischievous thing once tamed. Whether brought on embark, bought from a caravan, or caught and tamed on-site, they either do their default labors, or hang out in meeting halls. I suspect that something is broken there.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8301863#msg8301863
Eric Blank (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8301886#msg8301886
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8302004#msg8302004
It's not an easy change sadly - there are a lot of places where the game checks for pet status, or intelligence, and it just sort of assumes those things are exclusive. It'd be a big project I think to disentangle that. The number of bugs and oddities would still be high even if the interface were opened up. It's also not clear what it means to have an intelligent pet ethics-wise here, since dwarves don't do slaves, and the game especially wouldn't understand the syndrome since it uses the creature-type check too often when making certain decisions, especially in older code. Ideally when the syndrome hits, they'd be changed into a friend relationship or something. In relationships that are supposed to be deceptive as with the gremlin's intended behavior, another wrinkle is added.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
On the topic, if animals as mounts and companions were to expect more scope for fortress mode and w.g as a whole (ei army arc dedicated cavalry), would the current distinction of non-histfig animals logic end up being changed eventually to create historical and non-historical populations?
EI - The named horses and animals are found in the stables but all the strays still linger around with a more even distribution on w.g of how animals are represented / dwarves bonding with their mounts or giant ridable housecats choose who can ride on their backs.
It seems that way - it already happens when there are slayer-animals, and they are historical when they are pets in fort mode. I think it'll just naturally follow whatever features we add.
Quote from: Quizumba
There is by any chance add a FORCE dig option (explanation dig even if there is damp location) for our tiny dwarfs? sometimes I want to dig through an aquifer location without having to remake the tile to dig again.
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8302058#msg8302058
This one is reasonably high up on our list of things that need to be handled in some way. It's probably even more annoying now that most of the aquifers can be managed without advanced techniques.
Quote from: Uthimienure
In the "s" Squads screen, using "p" to select individual dwarves for squads #11 and higher never works, while it does work for squads #1-10. Is this on the radar to fix?
Whatever the military/squad menus end up turning into, I think this will stop being an issue just by virtue of the scope of the updates.
Quote from: Uthimienure
Will the new multi-z-layer display be toggleable? Can we turn it off and see just one z-level at a time?
I can picture myself turning it off briefly as a way to confirm what I'm seeing, especially with ramps/slopes (fairly often until getting the hang of the new graphics).
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8303490#msg8303490
Uthimienure (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8303689#msg8303689
Yeah, clinodev (and Meph) answered it here - we're going to have some settings/toggles at some point, and in-game rather than over in d_init or wherever we'd normally hide it.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
is that old development page accurate in that while it's probably incomplete and not in the planned order, everything on it is still planned to be done eventually, or would some features have been scrapped?
Some of it is surely outdated now, and some are no longer priorities which can be reached in the time we have left. But the myth/magic stuff is more ambitious in some ways now I think, and should do a lot of it justice in a general sense, and then on into the society stuff after that.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.When are we going to actually see festivals during gameplay?
2.Sorry if this is too much of a suggestion, but it's kind of a bummer how colosseums and skulls on pedestals do nothing but give your people trauma (especially when playing a modded race like goblins). Are there any plans to change that in the near future, maybe taking certain traits like cruelty into account?
3.Are we going to see Adventure mode ai improvements before the big wait? It's pretty silly how I can murder innocent villagers one by one and all they do is cry and spit on me.
4.I remember you mentioned adoption being added in the near future. Is this going to allow gay/asexual figures to get heirs?
5.Dungeon Masters don't do much right now. What exactly are they planned to do once the villain update is over?
6.Are we going to see more flexible magic system? IE systems that let you create your own spells?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8304002#msg8304002
1. I think FantasticDorf covered this well enough. I never have dates for anything anyway, and it isn't slotted in the shorter term timeline.
2. No plans in the near future! But it is unsatisfying I agree.
3. I don't know what specifically will be addressed, but the adventure investigation/villains/army stuff comes before the big wait, so some things will change!
4. The immediate concern was babies crawling into lava, so that would mean that in fort mode yeah, your monarch could potential adopt and then pass their position on, in situations like that where it wasn't supported before. But I'm not sure if it would happen in worldgen at first, since it's harder to keep track of all the orphans there and get them sorted without potential FPS trouble, but if it happens it'll cover everybody.
5. They have the espionage token, so theoretically they'd be enabling and be responsible for the player's shenanigans. As with the manager, it might not be much beyond that, though when we get into the situation of imperfect knowledge, which we've already got with the fort heist situation, suddenly what the dungeon master knows and doesn't know might be more important. But there's trouble here on the player interface side - if the dungeon master dies, it might be a bit much to delete all of the things you know (driving the player to like, pen and paper.) So, I think it'll take some feeling out as we go.
6. One of the main points of the myth/magic releases was to get at procedural magic systems, and these sorts of things are on the table. We all know the spell maker from the elder scrolls, and there's also systems like Spellcraft where you can change up amounts of reagents to get variable levels either in prep or on the fly, and perhaps most ambitiously, systems from literature/myth where effects/powers are more freeform like "I can create and control water and do whatever with it" - those will be some of the harder things to capture, and create interfaces for, and mechanics for, etc., but we're hoping to not just be bound by the idea of discrete "spells" in the usual way, that sometimes it would function differently.
Quote from: LordL
What if players will have some limited access to legends right during their fortress/adventure runs that will only allow viewing events that are known to the player? This would really bring joy of discovery and some order to the information you know (especially useful in adventure mode)?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8304031#msg8304031
LordL (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8304431#msg8304431
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8304439#msg8304439
The knowledge issue is tricky, as said in the replies, but there's probably some reasonable level that can be shown even in fort mode without spoiling things, just to make use of all the added intricacy worldgen provides. We've been thinking about this again lately since it's a whole thing sitting there that isn't really used. When I do the new legends hyper-links type interface stuff we'll see if something happens in fort mode. Adventure mode is a whole other critter and we haven't done enough work there to say, but it's reasonably that you should know what everybody knows about the bigger issues.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
I don't understand how "...but the jobs will be done by anybody available, starting with the most talented." can work unless most of the work force is unassigned to any "real" job. In the current system dorfs select posted jobs as they become available for new jobs, unless unoccupied when the job is posted. Without changes to that logic, the talented dorfs will almost always get the next job in a workshop taken by somebody else, unless the current "finished job. Wander away for 10 or so steps before taking a new one" behavior is changed so dorfs now either kick the unskilled out, or grab the next job immediately. Any comments on how this will work?
On the positive potential side, does need satisfaction factor into the job selection process, such that those who desperately want to craft something get a higher priority than the usual riffraff?
Without using masters and details, we've found that it does still sort of function - a cluster of dwarves that are already good at the job, from the varied migrant pool, tend to work on them, and get better at them. There is a bit of delay in the job postings that gives the better dwarves a chance to appear - I haven't seen this 10-steps wander behavior screw things up, and it's confusing that they wouldn't be up for the next application since they are also free the next time applications are processed. If that's a known bug, it hasn't impacted the general skill breakdowns much, but I'd still probably wanna take a look at it.
At the same time, assigning workshop masters is really easy and is what we intend for jobs you want done well.
Quote from: tonnot98
What is the biggest embark size that you expect to be stable by the 1.0.0 release? Do you think it might be greater than the current maximum possible of 16x16?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8305013#msg8305013
Of course, it currently gives you a warning for 16x16 and that's not guaranteed to be stable. Even ones smaller than that give you the warning. Part of the idea of the map rewrite is to handle altitudes a little better, and that'll allow us to do the multi-camera battlefield thing, so you can watch a battle in some other part of the map while your fortress is going, even on a large battlefield (because it doesn't load the 100+ z layers below generally. There are a lot of wrinkles there though, and it remains to be seen how fast it'll actually be, and which sizes then are allowed by default. We're not precisely aiming for larger and larger forts though.
Quote from: Urist mcOverusedJoke
there are goals other than "immortality" that are valid for secrets. Given that they currently do nothing, unlike the Immortality goal, are there any plans to make these functional after/during the Myth and Magic "arc", or are they sort of placeholders for something bigger? Or maybe placeholders for a a kind of "primitive" magic system?
I don't want to build any unrealistic expectations for myself but the hype train is real.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8305040#msg8305040
When you say "after/during" the Myth and Magic stuff, during that arc we're hoping for way more than "primitive" magic systems - we're going for full procedural robust magic systems. The "goal" system will hopefully be more integrated with regular personality stuff during this.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
What's the reason for having APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION? I don't see why the likes of CV_REMOVE_TAG, when defined directly in a creature, couldn't just be applied immediately, and then the same for any subsequent CV_ tokens like CV_ADD_TAG and CV_CONVERT_TAG.
For example, penguin men start out like this:Code: [Select][CREATURE:PENGUIN MAN]
[COPY_TAGS_FROM:BIRD_PENGUIN]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:ANIMAL_PERSON]
[GO_TO_TAG:BODY]
[CV_REMOVE_TAG:BODY]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BODY:HUMANOID_NECK:2EYES:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:GIZZARD:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:4FINGERS:4TOES:BEAK:TONGUE:RIBCAGE]
[APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION]
Why couldn't [CV_REMOVE_TAG:BODY] and the [CV_ADD_TAG:BODY:...] just be applied immediately one after the other automatically? As far as I can tell, [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:ANIMAL_PERSON] is applied instantly, it's just the manual "inside the creature definition" creature variation tokens that need APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION.
Also, why does CV_ADD_TAG need to exist anyway? If BODY has already been removed, surely it could just be re-added directly as [BODY:...], and the same for every other possible tag that could be added?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8306138#msg8306138
I'd have to refer to the modders as to if this is useful or if it's redundant. It has probably been around a decade or more since I added it, and I haven't looked at it since, so I just don't remember and it would take long time to get myself back up to speed as to how the 'cursor position' works and all that. Certainly I didn't do things in the most efficient way; if there was a reason at the time things were that way that no longer applies, I don't recall, but that's also possible.
Quote from: squamous
1. Are there any plans for larger cities than currently exist? Something like huge metropoli akin to Rome or Constantinople for example, taking up multiple world tiles.
2. Moving fortresses/fortress parts have been mentioned, but are there any plans to eventually add mechanisms for things like airships in addition to sea vessels and the like?
3. I've heard that there are plans for ruined civilizations and such. Are there plans for modders to be able to make ruins of their own, with custom loot/squatters/monsters?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8306521#msg8306521
1. We've considered it - there'd need to be a little sewing and a little rethinking, but even the current system before the bigger map rewrite could be made to support it. Not that we'll see it before then! And once we get there, we're hoping to have world-sized or even infinite city-planes and that sort of thing, though the larger problem there becomes managing inhabitants (which is something we already do poorly enough, since histfigs are the limiting resource.)
2. It'll all be the same once stuff can move, pretty much. I haven't thought about airships specifically, though. But flying fortresses are likely.
3. Hmm, I'm not sure what this is referring to precisely. The plans I can think of currently for ruins are just to add more mechanisms for live civilizations to become not so live. And that would all be up to the sim - and of course modded civs could also die in whichever ways make sense for them.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Feels odd, but the topic for the addition of a hospital occupation has put me and probably a few other people in a wierd spot, because it makes anything said flex the thin veil of suggestionhood if its all very prematurely formed at this stage. Ill stick my neck out, assuming we don't see a steam-post before the end of the month.
1) Ill quickly say that anecdotally i've set up small taverns to ensure visitation inside hospitals by friends and loved ones, and keeping the alcohol tap flowing for the benefit of longer term residents. Since this would be awkward to overlap with two occupation zones, will there be any degree of revision change of the hospital's "rules" if nessescary to discriminate between public and private hospitals?
2) Is there a expected "flow", prioritizing fortress mode outwards into adventure and worldgen in mind or will each area for medicine affected by this occupation zone and permancy change be respectfully stalled to their appropriate arcs after the big wait?
Though i wonder how many visitors would willingly let your dwarves do surgery on them if they had heard about your inhouse hospital. Its not like they can pay you for your trouble, so im not sure what a player could even possibly get out of it besides their imparted gratitude and that character lives to survive another day. A good deed in high places makes all the difference i suppose.
1) So you're saying before you did this with overlapping hospital and meeting areas? We haven't really changed how that part works, so you could still do it that way. You can also put your hospital beds in a meeting area, which makes for a very lively and probably unsanitary hospital, ha ha. But really it seems the key here, which we don't have time for now, is to just to proper visitation - the whole make-hospitals-a-location thing has made us want to make DF into a hospital sim, but it's probably a good time to not do that.
2) There's a lot crammed in between now and the big wait, and the steam release is only going to cram more in there. But there is now an anticipation of wg/adv hospitals as well. I'm not sure when it'll happen. Not the biggest priority of course, but the game is now out of parity on that location more than the previous ones (not that guildhalls/guilds got much attention.)
Quote from: FrankVill
If hospitals are now a location, does that mean that we will see hospitals in different parts of the world both in adventure mode and in world gen? Or will we have to wait until later for that?
The infrastructure is all there now, but it'll have to wait! We're pretty much trying to point straight toward the release now, and there's a lot left to do.
Quote from: Untelligent
My biggest concern with the new labour system is that it addresses the opposite of my own concerns. The new labour system allows you to easily prevent e.g. non-stonecrafters from doing stonecrafting jobs; I don't mind if low-skill stonecrafters do stonecrafting, but what I really want is for miners to only mine and not do any other jobs.
With the new labour system, is there an easier way to prevent e.g. miners from doing non-mining jobs, than from making every work detail selected-dwarfs-only, and then assigning every dwarf that isn't a miner to every not-mining work detail?
You can set your miners and other work detail people to specialize just like you can with the workshop masters. Then your miners will only mine and not haul or do any other jobs. So currently it's just one click per miner, and they are all arranged nicely at the top of the work detail when they are selected now. You can make specialized haulers the same way, and it also works for doctors and other location occupations you might want to keep on duty.
You can also use custom work details to turn off specific labors entirely, by making e.g. a "stone hauling" work detail and then setting it to "nobody does this", if you want stone to remain in place after you mine without having to fiddle much.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
How does CV_CONVERT_TAG work with target selection? That is, take this example:Code: [Select][CV_CONVERT_TAG]
[CVCT_MASTER:BODY]
[CVCT_TARGET:BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]
[CVCT_REPLACEMENT:HUMANOID_NECK:3FINGERS]
In actuality `BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK` are the very first 2 arguments in BODY everywhere this pair is used, and they are beside each other, but in principle, do they have to be directly beside each other to be detected and replaced? Like, would this be detected here?:Code: [Select][BODY:BASIC_2PARTBODY:FRONT_BODY_FLIPPERS:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]
Or does it need to be immediately consecutive?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8307894#msg8307894
Mr_Crabman (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8307923#msg8307923
Quote from: Su
hi toady! bit of an unusual question today - we've been watching/reading this talk [from the 2020 virtual Roguelike Celebration] on using hash functions instead of using rand() to randomly decide things, so that rng calls won't be affected by earlier calls. it's very interesting.
does dwarf fortress do anything like this already, or have you considered the technique? we recall there being something in one of the update posts a while back that sounded you were suffering from this problem.
Mobbstar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8308505#msg8308505
Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8308602#msg8308602
DwarfStar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8308609#msg8308609
I'm not sure which update post you were talking about, but it is a common problem! I was at that Roguelike talk (well, virtually) and almost immediately tried out the SplitMix stuff. And it's fast and fun! I haven't used the more advanced place-keeping/skipping/parallel abilities of it, but I've used it for our procedural furniture variations and some map variation stuff, and it works really well where our regular twister would be way slower to seed and where I was having trouble seeding more simple RNGs without glaring artifacts popping up. We do use multiple seeds etc. in worldgen with the twister, and put the seeds on a stack sometimes to keep things consistent, and that makes debugging messy sometimes when there are bugs in worldgen consistency. I haven't revisited any of that yet, but there are doubtless lots of places where switching to the new one'll make it cleaner and less prone to errors.
Quote from: lethosor
Are you planning to upgrade DF to SDL 2 (or has it happened already)?
I haven't done it yet, and things are working well enough so far that it hasn't seemed pressing. It's something I'd like to try, because it might speed things up or give me more powers, but if it throws a month-long wrench into the process, right now it doesn't look like I should do that, and I should leave it for a time when I'm not under time pressure (whatever that means, but this is not it.) As more testing happens on more setups, when we are closer to the finish line, that might change.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
What changes if any do you have planned for the likes of combat report logs, and the "block of text describing this creature's current injuries"? For the Steam release that is.
For the dragon/constrained randomizer, do you have any idea at this stage how descriptions would work? Currently descriptions for most creatures are manually entered into the raws, and for procgen creatures follow a hardcoded format for certain bodily traits and abilities.
But if dragon variations are to be exposed to the raws, presumably just 1 description couldn't cover all possible dragons without being extremely vague, but hardcoded means of generating descriptions seem a bit tricky to pull off in terms of how to neatly describe important features without describing too much, and in a bland manner (ie being too "anatomical/clinical" or repetitive, and lacking in flavor like many of the manual descriptions currently have), especially if the constrained randomizing functionality isn't tied to dragons/is expanded to other creatures.
To an extent this also applies to other procgen stuff planned to be exposed to/manipulable in the raws at a later point in some way, and because of how after myth and magic, a lot more creatures in a world may potentially be randomly generated.
EDIT: Same sort of question also goes for prefstrings.
Also, why is it that only integers seem to be used in the raws for everything? I don't think any numbers use decimal points as far as I can tell.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8309829#msg8309829
I'm not sure combat reports are going to change. They need to be integrated with the announcement icons that roll up the left side, and we left some space for that.
Procedural text is always difficult, especially getting it to sound varied and natural while still being accurate. There are various tools and so forth, and other projects people have done (e.g. tracery/markov stuff/GPT# etc.) and I'm not sure which direction we'll end up going. It's not an easy problem and our initial descriptions will be lacking I'm sure.
Yeah, as PatrikLundell mentioned, there are e.g. general speed concerns - I got to prefer fixed-point math when doing triangle u/v coords before e.g. directx existed, on some ancient pre-armok projects, and lean even more that way now. On top of speed trouble, doing file i/o with floating points is also a pain compared to integers. I just try to never use them outside of some necessary local calculations that have no chance of ever being serialized, mainly when I can't escape using e.g. sin/cos or I need a real sqrt and the square won't suffice (e.g. for distance comparisons, comparing dx*dx+dy*dy is faster than also taking sqrt and comparing after.) Raws aren't binary serialization, and I can understand for appearances sake why doing e.g. densities as g/cm^3 would be preferable. But generally I just push up to mg or cc or whatever is close enough to get rid of the '.', so it matches the internal data structures and so I don't have to parse the '.'. And it's good for the raws to visually match the data - here in FotF, we just had that issue with the /10 volume conversion causing some confusion, and it would probably be better to just use those unusual units out in the raws as well rather than converting silently.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
What's the purpose of using GO_TO_START in creature variants? For example:Code: [Select][CREATURE:GIANT_TOAD]
[COPY_TAGS_FROM:TOAD]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:GIANT]
[CV_REMOVE_TAG:CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC]
[APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION]
[GO_TO_END]
[SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
[CHANGE_BODY_SIZE_PERC:100700]
[GO_TO_START]
[NAME:giant toad:giant toads:giant toad]
[CASTE_NAME:giant toad:giant toads:giant toad]
[DESCRIPTION:A huge monster in the shape of a toad.]
[POPULATION_NUMBER:10:20]
[CLUSTER_NUMBER:1:1]
[CREATURE_TILE:'T']
[COLOR:2:0:0]
[PET_EXOTIC]
[PETVALUE:500]
[MOUNT_EXOTIC]
[GO_TO_END]
[PREFSTRING:beauty]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_WALK_CRAWL_GAITS:3512:2634:1756:878:4900:6900] 10 kph
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_CRAWLING_GAITS:9000:8900:8825:8775:9500:9900] 1 kph
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_SWIMMING_GAITS:9000:8900:8825:8775:9500:9900] 1 kph
Here you SELECT_CASTE:ALL, and then add one token, and then go back to the stat to add a bunch more tokens, and back to the end again.
But why is this? To my knowledge, the very start of the object is treated as the ALL caste already, so it doesn't seem like it makes a functional difference whether these tokens are at the start of the object, or at the end inside SELECT_CASTE:ALL, and it doesn't seem to serve a clear stylistic purpose either; my only guess is that maybe you look at the end resulting raw object after these commands have been processed, and so you get to see those tokens actually look at the top like with all "normal" creatures.
It was mostly an aesthetic thing, probably. The name etc. tags are at the top, so I put them at the top. It's also probably good to keep positions as consistent as possible for any future alterations as well, though I probably haven't done an excellent job of that and the need hasn't yet come up after many years.
Post by: clinodev on September 01, 2021, 11:26:46 pm
I'm sure I speak for many when I say I'm looking forward to the community conversation moving forward from concern about labor assignment to terror about the military system!
Post by: Toady One on September 02, 2021, 04:40:54 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on September 05, 2021, 02:07:41 pm
Post by: clinodev on September 05, 2021, 04:53:10 pm
Have you ever considered changing the lycanthrope 'Wereass' to 'Weredonkey'? I know it's technically correct, but thinking ahead to the Steam release, might be best to just nip that in the bud, as it were.
Even worse, "asses" only exist as procedural elements, for were creatures and forgotten beasts. "Wild Donkey" has become acceptable in English for Equus africanus asinus. From private correspondence I know it's an historical accident that domestic donkeys have no wild version in the game, possibly over confussion about whether "wild donkey" was acceptable, and I'm assured it's not an intentional joke.
This is a personal pet peeve of mine, as it happens. I've removed countless "Ha ha wereass! Get it? A! S! S! Like a butt!" posts on the subreddit.
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 05, 2021, 05:37:53 pm
Have you ever considered changing the lycanthrope 'Wereass' to 'Weredonkey'? I know it's technically correct, but thinking ahead to the Steam release, might be best to just nip that in the bud, as it were.
A side note to this, but it appears demons/forgotten beasts made of vomit can also come about - definitely a bit overly 'gross-out humor' for the tone, IMO?
Post by: ZM5 on September 06, 2021, 07:13:17 am
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 06, 2021, 04:37:55 pm
Post by: winggar on September 06, 2021, 04:56:48 pm
Secondly, how are erosion passes handled? I can't think of a way to do it that wouldn't bleed over into nearby chunks.
Finally, how is it decided where lakes and rivers start? I know that they just go downhill after being placed, but I'm not sure where to place these water features in the first place.
Post by: Mr Crabman on September 07, 2021, 12:36:10 am
I'm for the change from "ass" to "donkey", but TBH I don't have a problem with the vomit/filth demons and forgotten beasts.
My thoughts on the whole "ass vs donkey" thing are that it's fine as it is now; it's a suitable, archaic term for them (fitting given that it only applies to werebeasts and ancient creatures/demons), and with the Steam graphics most people won't be mistaking "wereasses" or "ass demons" for.... Something else like they do now once in a while.
Yeah you'll still inevitably have a few new people here and there posting stuff like "hah hah a giant ass twisted into humanoid form" despite the graphics, but I don't think this is a huge deal, and it won't be as common as before anyway.
Hello! I've been working on a game myself that relies strongly on procedural generation, and I have a few technical questions as to how Dwarf Fortress world generation works behind the scenes. First of all, how does each tile decide which biome it's a part of? My game uses a chunk-based system, and I have a voronoi diagram for assigning biomes. A voronoi sample is done for each vertex of the chunk, and if there are any discrepancies then a voronoi sample is done on every tile.
Secondly, how are erosion passes handled? I can't think of a way to do it that wouldn't bleed over into nearby chunks.
Finally, how is it decided where lakes and rivers start? I know that they just go downhill after being placed, but I'm not sure where to place these water features in the first place.
You should post your questions in lime green if they're directed at Toady.
Post by: ZM5 on September 07, 2021, 02:01:52 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 07, 2021, 02:15:05 am
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 07, 2021, 08:36:13 am
(And yes, z=>d has been checked and found working, it's just the char creation Appearance tab that's having this issue.)
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on September 07, 2021, 04:04:52 pm
I'd be fine with the ass-to-donkey change if just for consistency's sake.
Yeah it's really more a consistency issue for me as well (I don't have a huge problem with the juvenile "hehehe ass" jokes, the elimination of those would just be a bonus).
Post by: Rekov on September 07, 2021, 08:52:53 pm
For example, I can mod bone blocks into the game, but I can't add 'Bone' to the 'Blocks: Other Materials' menu in stockpile options, and consequently the bone blocks aren't accepted.
Could stockpiles theoretically be pushed to the raws, or would this require some kind of code that scans all of the reactions to see what can be made of what materials?
Post by: eerr on September 08, 2021, 06:39:11 pm
-http://www.bay12games.com/
-http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
-http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php
Post by: Bumber on September 08, 2021, 07:44:27 pm
Post by: delphonso on September 14, 2021, 05:42:36 pm
Post by: voliol on September 23, 2021, 11:51:13 am
Edit: And a question for ThreeToe: In the desert fort, you locked a door between the fort and the caverns because ”monsters might come”. Knowing building destroyers roam down there, that obviously won’t work in the long run. Was this intentional to lead new players to discover !fun! and antimeasures against it on their own? Or do you simply play more open forts like that?
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 24, 2021, 05:21:24 am
Quote from: DFwiki
No function, presumably a placeholder.
Is it actually a piece of scaffolding left sticking out, or is there more to it?
Post by: Carrolito on September 24, 2021, 02:15:06 pm
I have a doubt, I understand that the videos so far are not going to be the final product, are there any plans to add an option to enable/disable the flicker on dwarves and entities? I feel a little weird to see sprites that don't have the characteristic flicker of the game, especially I feel that the feeling of movement when moving from one frame to another is missing
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on September 27, 2021, 09:19:34 am
Post by: voliol on September 27, 2021, 10:40:57 am
hey, not sure if this has been asked before but will the map rewrite include being able to actually mod in structures? so instead of having to use something like CAVE_DETAILED or CITY in your entity file you'd be able to insert your own raw defined structure.
It doesn't appear in this ramble, which I think is the most complete account of all things the map rewrite should lay the groundwork for gathered in one place:
Quote from: MalroktheIIITime for my newest round of stupid, far off, likely already asked, questions for you!
1:When you change world gen for the myth arc, what specific geographic features are you hoping for (either in general, or in particular)
2: With said new world gen, do you have any thoughts on how will biomes work? If you are planning a change on that front, what?
3: How long until you have working evolution (joke question, but still)
Bonus question: 1&2, but with alternate planes.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8157663#msg8157663
The first step with the map rewrite is to create a structure which will support what we want to do, whether that's with planes or real world land/waterforms, etc. In no particular order, one list we have is different distant/time scales, a general framework for world spanning features like rivers that will allow world trees or ley lines or tortoises or whatever), world edges, connectors like rainbow bridges/multiplanar rivers, multiple view ports, boats and moving map segments/shifting mazes, shadow/veil concepts, recursive/fractal/'levels of reality'/micro-macrocosm concepts, non-rectangular world shapes (giant pillar, tubes, giant pit, etc., though we likely won't attempt traditional spheres, as wrapping abilities are limited by the grid), better geological layers/intrusions/cliffs/eroded features, support for linkages between rivers/caves entrances/etc., support for small sites (logging camps, crossroad inns, etc.), support for nomadic groups sites (the current tents the armies use are horrible), ability to support world-spanning settlements, portals (various), faerie-type border zones, infinite worlds (not that there's memory for that, but the ability to reshift focus), liquid/air/etc. based worlds, auras/fields/mists/wtvr and restructure good/evil-type sphere links, compatability with astronomical or larger universe concepts, support for regional/world natural disasters and resulting map changes (and map repair like forest regrowth), places in the clouds, underground oceans and other improved underground linkages/structure/features, consider support for broader liquid/material types in terrain, large vortices/whirlwinds/etc., z-level buildings/doors/etc., merging/mixing planes, teleporting sites, illusions of various kinds (non-tactile, tactile but impermanent in some way.)
No way we're getting to all or even most of that on the first pass! But we're hoping to create a backbone that support it all. I also have a few other lists around that are mostly in that one up there, but I doubt that's everything.
Biomes relate to a lot of that, how they are contained or how they can change and bleed together, and what sort of ecological simming we can get away with. Ultimately we'll still need to have rainfall, temperature, drainage, present species, and that sort of thing, and the existing classifications aren't bad there.
Though the development page (https://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) has "Editors for fixed worlds - Maps, sites, entities, historical figures, artifacts, myths, etc." as one of its points. As I recall it being mentioned in other places, I think it is rather about hand-crafting sites/structures than the rooms/parts/algorithms they are made of, but who knows. I'm sure most of the modding community would love it if structure generation was moved into the raws.
Post by: ror6ax on September 30, 2021, 07:38:44 am
What are artists working on currently? UI feedback thread has been silent for months.
Will the game have own sound effects or at least support workshop mods to add them? I mean sounds of menu interactions, environment and unit sounds etc.
Gnomoria has a concept of darkness in caves being a source of monsters. That makes room-making more demanding and purposeful. Same with cave-ins - they seem to be rather rare now so I'm not incentified NOT to make a huge-ass 40x40 square rooms everywhere. Have you considered these or perhaps other ways to make fortress design more engaging as a game mechanic?
What is your opinion about the dwarf fortress-lite genre that seems to be blossoming? Do you consider those to be competition to DF?
Have you/Kitfox considered hiring a professional UX designer who would help find optimal solutions to the arguably quite challenging problems DF has to offer?
Post by: Mr Crabman on September 30, 2021, 10:20:28 am
Will the existing menus be polished by artists or what we've seen is the final product?
It's been said that they will be polished/have an "artist pass", it just makes sense to leave that polish to the end once the menus are finalized.
Post by: Mr Crabman on October 01, 2021, 11:43:46 am
Post by: Toady One on October 01, 2021, 04:08:21 pm
Quote
Quote from: Immortal-DHave you ever considered changing the lycanthrope 'Wereass' to 'Weredonkey'? I know it's technically correct, but thinking ahead to the Steam release, might be best to just nip that in the bud, as it were.Quote from: Silverwing235A side note to this, but it appears demons/forgotten beasts made of vomit can also come about - definitely a bit overly 'gross-out humor' for the tone, IMO?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8310619#msg8310619
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8310705#msg8310705
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8310778#msg8310778
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8310863#msg8310863
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8310889#msg8310889
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8311051#msg8311051
Ha ha, yeah, I'll probably change it. I don't mind the vomit as an in-universe thing, but the donkey name would put those creatures in line with the naming convention for the domestic animal (and any future wild donkey if we ever get those.)
Quote from: winggar
Hello! I've been working on a game myself that relies strongly on procedural generation, and I have a few technical questions as to how Dwarf Fortress world generation works behind the scenes. First of all, how does each tile decide which biome it's a part of? My game uses a chunk-based system, and I have a voronoi diagram for assigning biomes. A voronoi sample is done for each vertex of the chunk, and if there are any discrepancies then a voronoi sample is done on every tile.
Secondly, how are erosion passes handled? I can't think of a way to do it that wouldn't bleed over into nearby chunks.
Finally, how is it decided where lakes and rivers start? I know that they just go downhill after being placed, but I'm not sure where to place these water features in the first place.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8310892#msg8310892
Yeah, as PatrikLundell writes, we have several fractal fields and the biome is determined through a formula mainly based on latitude, temp, rainfall, and drainage. Using several separate fields allows some interesting overlap to take place to break up blobs of similar biomes.
There's definitely bleeding over into nearby chunks! We have a finite top-level world map, at most 257x257 in size, so we can store those fields after generating them and do whatever we want to them. Then we generate new fields when we zoom in, using those changed stored values as the edge seeds. Of course you can't change fields as easily once the game starts since it'll spoil fractal generation for maps already made, but this is in world gen so it's okay.
We run several fake river passes to erode the landscape, starting the rivers at the base of the mountain elevation and going to the sea. And there's also some running backwards up from the sea if I recollect since it helped smooth things out. After many, many passes that just change the landscape but don't place water, there's a final pass, with the starting points at the base of the mountains. Since so many erosion passes have been done, there's usually a pretty clear path to the sea at this time, so most of the rivers will succeed in finding ocean and be placed - there's possibly also a backwards process here since it seems to help. I don't recall exactly how the lakes work, but it isn't something complicated like seeing where actual flat spaces or properly erodable places or flow blockages are - it might just expand out from random points, or something not too much more complicated than that, though at some point rainfall in the basin is taken into consideration for the flow levels.
Quote from: Rekov
How complex would it be to restructure stockpiles to accept modded materials?
For example, I can mod bone blocks into the game, but I can't add 'Bone' to the 'Blocks: Other Materials' menu in stockpile options, and consequently the bone blocks aren't accepted.
Could stockpiles theoretically be pushed to the raws, or would this require some kind of code that scans all of the reactions to see what can be made of what materials?
Yeah, either solution is time-consuming, though I'm theoretically for doing something like this at some point. Putting it in the raws is probably the safest thing to do since the first several incarnations of a scanner would likely miss stuff or add them to an inappropriate category at times. The sizers on the various stockpile fields forget where they come from, so save compatibility would be a whole thing and there are probably a few other issues (it can't be a raw-only solution because of the generated creature mats etc.), but it seems solvable and not hopeless anyway.
Quote from: eerr
Have you thought about revamping the three main splash pages for the graphical release?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8311505#msg8311505
Hmm, yeah, I dunno. It would make sense to direct people to the Steam and itch pages more clearly, I think, but the site is definitely also going to remain the home of Classic DF as well as the old DF versions, and it feels historically proper to keep some visuals of that in place.
Quote from: delphonso
On a technical level, would you be willing (or perhaps as part of the steam release) to build DF for ARM architecture? Mostly for Raspberry Pis and other SBCs. No idea how much of a hassle that would be, but the latest RPis are powerful enough to run DF without immediately meeting FPS death.
The Steam release'll have enough trouble keeping the OSs we have, and we're definitely going to jump those hurdles before adding new ones. I'm not sure how much of an extra support burden I'll be able to take on overall.
Quote from: voliol
The new video of Zach playing a desert fort has a ”stoneworker’s workshop” (seemingly) instead of a ”mason’s workshop”. The workshop also includes some tasks that reside in a craftdwarf’s workshop in the currently available versions of DF, such as those for slabs and pedestals but notably not the crafts. Does this mean all those tasks will now be done by a mason (perhaps renamed to ”stoneworker”?) and that only the common crafts such as figurines and rings will stay with the stonecrafter/craftsdwarf’s workshop?
Edit: And a question for ThreeToe: In the desert fort, you locked a door between the fort and the caverns because ”monsters might come”. Knowing building destroyers roam down there, that obviously won’t work in the long run. Was this intentional to lead new players to discover !fun! and antimeasures against it on their own? Or do you simply play more open forts like that?
Yeah, we redid all the stone jobs and names. The whole mason thing has been bothering me for years and years. It's still not perfect, but I like it a lot better now. There are stonecutters, stone carvers, engravers, and masons. Stoneworker is the skill group word (like woodworker or craftsdwarf or farmer), so it made the most sense for the shop. Could almost be called the stone carver's shop, but then the engraving (for slabs) would have to be done over at the crafts, and slabs still felt hefty? I dunno. Could easily change our minds on this again, but at least they aren't masons, ha ha ha. Stonecutters do the fortifications and smoothing, while the engravers still engrave walls and floors. Masons are just used for stone building placement, but we'll likely involve them in stone tile constructions at some point.
Threetoe: I will only tell you this because you are a committed fan asking questions on FotF. So, to tell you the truth, I actually saw a troll wandering down in the caves and was hoping it would wander by the door to break it down.
Quote from: Silverwing235
Just checking regarding the MAGICAL creature-caste token:Quote from: DFwikiNo function, presumably a placeholder.
Is it actually a piece of scaffolding left sticking out, or is there more to it?
Hmm, is seems to do similar stuff to AT_PEACE_WITH_WILDLIFE and VEGETATION, in terms of hostility. In fact, it looks completely interchangeable with AT_PEACE_WITH_WILDLIFE, and the VEGETATION caste flag is also interchangeable with it, except that the VEGETATION flag creatures are also valued in artwork more by civs with the plant sphere. My only guesses are that this relates to the ent-type tree creatures that used to be animated by the elves, which were possibly tagged as MAGICAL and VEGETATION (which would be redundant, so not an excellent guess), or the wizard character that used to come and take a dwarf to avert the ~year 6 undead invasion and which would be nice not to be killed by a lion or something and is definitely MAGICAL.
Quote from: Carrolito
Thanks for all the effort you are doing :D I have never felt so excited about a game!
I have a doubt, I understand that the videos so far are not going to be the final product, are there any plans to add an option to enable/disable the flicker on dwarves and entities? I feel a little weird to see sprites that don't have the characteristic flicker of the game, especially I feel that the feeling of movement when moving from one frame to another is missing
I don't understand this one - is there a characteristic flicker in the ASCII version? To me the happy face symbols are on one tile, and then they are on another tile, and there's no flicker at all related to movement or otherwise, and it works the same way in the Steam version. Whether or not there should be sliding movement in the graphical version is a different question as I understand it. Things I can think of that are like flicker are the flashing legendary dwarves, the /-\|/ animation when there are multiple creatures in a tile, and the status symbols that flash over them, but those things don't relate to movement.
Quote from: GOTOTOTOE
hey, not sure if this has been asked before but will the map rewrite include being able to actually mod in structures? so instead of having to use something like CAVE_DETAILED or CITY in your entity file you'd be able to insert your own raw defined structure.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8315871#msg8315871
It is one of the more complicated things to take out of code, especially if you still want to understand meaningfully what areas actually are, sometimes a few nested layers of meaning/ownership/map links/etc., rather than just creating a space that looks a certain way. We'll see with the editors and things how much progress we make there. Although I don't think my site/dungeon maps are particularly good right now, some of the generation is pretty complex, and touches all sorts of pieces of the game. This would be difficult to capture in a text format, and would require a pretty huge API even for a scripting language to get at all the things queried by the code. But that doesn't mean we can't go further than just having a few tagged types as we do now.
Quote from: ror6ax
Will the existing menus be polished by artists or what we've seen is the final product?
What are artists working on currently? UI feedback thread has been silent for months.
Will the game have own sound effects or at least support workshop mods to add them? I mean sounds of menu interactions, environment and unit sounds etc.
Gnomoria has a concept of darkness in caves being a source of monsters. That makes room-making more demanding and purposeful. Same with cave-ins - they seem to be rather rare now so I'm not incentified NOT to make a huge-ass 40x40 square rooms everywhere. Have you considered these or perhaps other ways to make fortress design more engaging as a game mechanic?
What is your opinion about the dwarf fortress-lite genre that seems to be blossoming? Do you consider those to be competition to DF?
Have you/Kitfox considered hiring a professional UX designer who would help find optimal solutions to the arguably quite challenging problems DF has to offer?
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8316668#msg8316668
Ha ha, there are a lot of fresh placeholders that go in with the menus, produced by myself with paint. Definitely not finalized!
Artists are working a bit on plants, FBs, kobs and such, but we definitely entered an in-between zone since I have so much menu stuff to do. At some point I won't be so far behind and new art posts should pick up again.
Sound plans aren't finalized yet. I'm not sure if we'll be able to release with that much, since it's a production track we just don't have much capacity for currently (though we have some event sounds and will likely end up with some menu sounds at least.) I'm not sure if I'll set up a whole system in advance to support non-vanilla sounds, since we might be able add them later and we'd want to support those sounds properly, which includes me taking cues/software/fmod help from sound fx devs, and it would be best not to have to rip out another system with a bunch of existing mods to do it.
We had some ideas about how to bring cave-ins back, yeah. Lighting has some old thoughts but I'm not sure how or when or if that's ever going to actually come up. Generally, we just don't have a lot of proper function to our locations. When they do have functions, like the dining room currently, suddenly furniture placement and stuff matters. So as we make locations do more and mean more, it should help a lot. But that's a fairly long road.
I mean, if there's something called the dwarf-fortress-lite genre I think that can only be good for us, ha ha, though business/marketing stuff isn't my realm of expertise.
Getting a dedicated UX designer is kind of the same issue with the sound stuff - we have some resources, but not a ton. Obviously it's best to get people like that involved early, but it's just not in the cards. Kitfox can afford the artists and the music, but not a lot of full-time DF people generally. There are ways to get more money, but that's been true for a while now, and we're using the approach we're comfortable with. If the release goes well, adding UX people would be late obviously, but then we'll have some additional options. At the same time, we're slowly expanding the people testing the builds, people with various qualifications, so I'm anticipating a lot of sharp suggestions well before the release, at least, beyond what we're already getting from the community and etc.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
Are there plans to eventually expand on senses, such as echolocation, more indepth/functional hearing, viper-like heat vision etc? Right now the [EXTRAVISION] tag seems like a sort of crude prototype version of echolocation in a way.
EXTRAVISION was a tag that made e.g. undead with rotted eyeballs unbroken, ha ha, though I don't remember the first context of its use. We'll likely continue to just add things as they come up.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 01, 2021, 09:51:57 pm
hey, not sure if this has been asked before but will the map rewrite include being able to actually mod in structures? so instead of having to use something like CAVE_DETAILED or CITY in your entity file you'd be able to insert your own raw defined structure.
I had a suggestion (which could probably use a rewrite) that is intended to work as a framework to allow “raw-guided” procedural generation of buildings and sites. Iirc, I think it was my first post after I joined. It probably needs a rewrite though (I’m mainly putting it off because want to learn more about how the raws work first, but it seems like the thing that would be perfect to put in during the map-rewrite, so I’m afraid I might not have time…).
Post by: Doorkeeper on October 01, 2021, 10:11:41 pm
If you ever add wild asses, including them as "wild donkeys" would work with both the re-naming and the current naming convention (i.e. if you include them as "wild ass", then players will assume that "weredonkey" refers to the domesticated form). Though that may be obvious already. Sorry if that's the case.
Definitely glad that vomit creatures will stay. Weird-material monsters are horrible and cool.
Post by: voliol on October 02, 2021, 03:11:22 am
Post by: delphonso on October 02, 2021, 06:21:19 am
I can't believe wereass is going to get renamed! I'll mod one in, myself, if I have to.
Post by: ror6ax on October 02, 2021, 03:55:59 pm
Post by: Su on October 03, 2021, 07:08:16 am
Thanks Toady. Sad to see that wereasses will be renamed. The reactions from newcomers never gets old. But I understand: it's fundamentally misleading, and there are now commercial and ethical reasons for the name change.
wait, ethical reasons? what ethical reasons?
Post by: LordBaal on October 03, 2021, 11:49:33 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 03, 2021, 12:52:15 pm
When it comes to the actual usage or not of the word "ass" I don't particularly care whether it remains or gets replaced.
Post by: LordBaal on October 03, 2021, 12:56:07 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 03, 2021, 06:28:35 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 04, 2021, 03:55:58 pm
For me it's really exclusively a consistency issue, I'm not especially concerned with abuse of juvenile puns or any potential obscure ethical objections people may have to the word "ass" that I'm unfamiliar with. It quite simply makes no sense (IMO anyway) to have the word "ass" in a game where the domesticated equine sometimes referred to by that name in the real world is only ever called a "donkey". If wild asses ever get around to being implemented as an official creature in vanilla DF, then we can talk about reimplementing wereasses and the like. Until then, as already brought up, there's always mods.Oh, does this mean the were-mammoth must now be deleted? That's too bad. All because some people find words funny.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 04, 2021, 05:13:31 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 04, 2021, 08:43:04 pm
I guess I see your point, didn't actually think of that (not to mention all the other possible procgen creatures corresponding to animals that don't currently exist in vanilla DF). To tell the truth, wherever Toady lands on the issue I'll probably be fine with it. Just felt the need to put my two cents in for some reason, which I'm now regretting. :POh, it's certainly an issue that needs some discussion. Putting aside the ass thing, is there a reason that were-creatures and demons can include extinct and mythical creatures?
I think it adds to their horror, which is nice. But some prefer logical consistency I guess.
(It's an Ass!
A what!?
I..er..like a horse but smaller.
Now you will know why you fear the night!).
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 04, 2021, 08:48:46 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 04, 2021, 08:55:18 pm
Extinct creatures also give immortal monsters from "a time before time" a suitably ancient feel IMO, whereas an ass is still just...an ass.Still extinct. (Or most varieties are anyway).
And definitely "extinct" in the Dwarf Fortress worlds.
Post by: ArmokGoB on October 07, 2021, 09:09:35 am
Post by: Eric Blank on October 08, 2021, 06:00:11 pm
And salamanders. I just remembered there are no salamanders besides olms!
Post by: voliol on October 08, 2021, 06:28:00 pm
Are there any plans to add giant desert scorpions back in?
A long long time ago (2015 :p) we were given a promise:
Quote from: file_changes.txt
will add replacement scorpion laterAlas, the powers of the scorpion are too mighty. Even a mere effigy may gain access to the source of the banished one. Who knows what happens then...
Post by: ror6ax on October 10, 2021, 04:43:10 am
Has there been any thought to visualisation of damage/fight? Once dwarf and the enemy are on adjacent tiles, what will we see/hear?
Post by: delphonso on October 10, 2021, 05:57:50 am
How are big enemies going to be represented visually in Steam version? Will they be multi-tile?
I could be wrong, but I believe this discussion settled on the large creatures' sprites being slightly outside the bounds of their tile, but still only taking a tile. This way it doesn't require a huge rewrite, but conveys size to some degree.
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on October 10, 2021, 12:03:45 pm
Post by: Mr Crabman on October 11, 2021, 01:57:52 pm
2. Obviously this depends on player feedback, but after the initial Steam release (and fixing any major problems that may arise), would there a second (small) UI pass made (and/or enhancement of modding capabilities/framework), or is it just immediately onto resuming the villain stuff?
3. Can you say roughly what sort of priority/frequency future updates to modding/workshop capabilities or UI enhancements (or even graphical, such as smooth movement between tiles for instance) would have after the initial release (and if there is one, the "smaller second pass") in general? Contingent on player feedback of course.
4. What screens/menus remain to be done for fortress mode? With the military stuff hopefully done by the time you read/respond to this, I think it's the civ screen and whatever is left in the "info hub", but what is left in the info hub, and is there anything else outside the info hub and civ screen?
5. Is the info presented in the top bar final? For instance, I think somewhere there was something asked a while back about whether it might mislead players about needing to keep the entire fort fully active at all times by showing the number of idlers, and on wider screens there's quite a bit of unused space (granted, maybe some of it should be reserved for future updates).
I could be wrong, but I believe this discussion settled on the large creatures' sprites being slightly outside the bounds of their tile, but still only taking a tile. This way it doesn't require a huge rewrite, but conveys size to some degree.
You're right (the huge rewrite for true multi-tiles comes in a much, much later update); I think the max size decided on is 2x3 tiles (height/width).
Post by: Literaljoker99 on October 12, 2021, 05:46:30 pm
Quote from: Toady One
I think that Carrolito did mean the /-\| animation, status symbols, et cetera. I assume that "when moving from one frame to another" refers to these things happening over time, rather than in-game movement.Quote from: CarrolitoThanks for all the effort you are doing :D I have never felt so excited about a game!
I have a doubt, I understand that the videos so far are not going to be the final product, are there any plans to add an option to enable/disable the flicker on dwarves and entities? I feel a little weird to see sprites that don't have the characteristic flicker of the game, especially I feel that the feeling of movement when moving from one frame to another is missing
I don't understand this one - is there a characteristic flicker in the ASCII version? To me the happy face symbols are on one tile, and then they are on another tile, and there's no flicker at all related to movement or otherwise, and it works the same way in the Steam version. Whether or not there should be sliding movement in the graphical version is a different question as I understand it. Things I can think of that are like flicker are the flashing legendary dwarves, the /-\|/ animation when there are multiple creatures in a tile, and the status symbols that flash over them, but those things don't relate to movement.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on October 14, 2021, 09:43:27 am
I see there have been changes to workshops, menus, and jobs, and I've seen the graphical representations of these changes, but for most of them I haven't seen corresponding ASCII versions. If I choose to use the ASCII version, will I be able to identify everything immediately or will many things be unfamiliar?
How well does all the information fit into an ASCII screen? How will it look at smaller than 1920x1080 resolution and/or resized windows?
I've seen how lower layers look in the graphical version, will there be similar effects in the ASCII version?
How wed are you to the ANSI colours, will you move to a broader colour palette in the ASCII version at any point?
Are you working in ASCII first and then moving to graphics, or are you working with graphics first and then going back to ASCII?
How do floaty menus work in ASCII? Do they snap to a grid or are they unaligned with the background graphics?
Post by: Mr Crabman on October 14, 2021, 09:59:53 am
I see there have been changes to workshops, menus, and jobs, and I've seen the graphical representations of these changes, but for most of them I haven't seen corresponding ASCII versions. If I choose to use the ASCII version, will I be able to identify everything immediately or will many things be unfamiliar?
I've seen how lower layers look in the graphical version, will there be similar effects in the ASCII version?
Are you working in ASCII first and then moving to graphics, or are you working with graphics first and then going back to ASCII?
The ASCII version will have the same UI changes and layout, it just won't use textures, but ASCII-style stuff. It will be somewhat unfamiliar compared to the current ASCII UI just because of the layout and options, but art-wise it will probably be the same (ie black background etc)
The ASCII version will not show the lower layers by default, though someone could make a similar tileset that does enable lower layers.
He's doing graphics first and then ASCII (also, doing mouse stuff first before keyboard controls).
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 14, 2021, 10:57:53 am
In addition to doing the mouse controls first and adding key bindings to the end, the UI widgets will start with the graphics ones and figuring out how to do it with character tiles will wait until the graphical UI widgets are finalized.
The game will have one grid for text and another one for graphics (and a third one for the overworld map), and I'd expect the grid to be the same regardless of the tile set used (i.e. character, mephday [i.e. Premium version], or third party). The code is intended to be the same between the versions (except for vendor integration things).
Post by: Urist McSadist on October 21, 2021, 04:06:32 am
2.Are there ever going to be procedural weapons?
3.Are cage traps and drawbridges going to get nerfed with the siege improvements?
4.Are guilds and religions going to be expanded upon before the big wait?
5.Are longer weapons like spears ever going to actually have more range?
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 21, 2021, 04:31:27 am
Will mythologies and magic systems be customizable? And if that's the case, will they also be exportable?
I mean unless something changes, it'll probably be the same kind of save export format that goes with a world_bat file you can look into when its not compressed, as well as some influecial RAWS, which are carried along from the moment a world is created.
So implicitly yes? Unless Toady contradicts that statement by announcing a difference to how the save system will work when exchanging peer to peer.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 21, 2021, 08:18:40 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 21, 2021, 11:10:36 am
Procedural weapons have been discussed in the past and they are presumably still on the table for the future. I would assume the music/dance/poetry system set would serve as a starting point, hopefully with the addition that the generated names would contain sufficient indications of what they are that they can be used and assigned without examining each description in detail, memorizing what a glub, grub, and glug are in this world (or write it down in a spreadsheet) and wipe that memory for the next one.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on October 21, 2021, 02:31:43 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on October 21, 2021, 06:25:44 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 22, 2021, 10:12:15 am
On the subject of tackling the more complicated interfaces for Steam, have you had a chance to look at bins & containers in general? i.e. Seeds within bags within barrels within stockpiles.
Seems like a rabbithole, but at current in DF with barrels and bags the interior container is always held opaque so you can dump/forbid the macro-container (barrel) or enter the bag and designate that from the inside of it; unlike the trade screen's way of spreading visible contents so its not easy to understand what exactly you're asking for if its regarding functionality (bugs like items jamming in bins) or UI presentation?
Questions of my own.
1) Would we maybe be seeing some of this equipment screen being designed for military recycled for domestic trinkets (earrings etc) on a dwarf's person in the future?
2) Lastly, with the slots assigned imparticular would they manifest with the BP of the creature using some of the existing cues like hearing token parts required for earrings? (ei, ettins would have two helmet-slots for two independent heads, or if BP was tokened not to, retracting the choice of a slot)
That last bit is a bit suggestiony, but i have faith that it might hopefully eliminate the long standing recessive code artifact that quadruped people (along the lines of centaurs) wear two pairs of pants and shoes over their hooves.
Post by: Bumber on October 27, 2021, 11:59:49 pm
Spoiler: Original question (click to show/hide)
Edit: Actually, it would probably just be easier for you to post what all the reference enums (that link item, unit, etc., structs to other structs) are called.
DFHack calls them:
Code: (general_ref_type enum) [Select]
ARTIFACT = 0
IS_ARTIFACT = 1
NEMESIS = 2
IS_NEMESIS = 3
ITEM = 4
ITEM_TYPE = 5
COINBATCH = 6
MAPSQUARE = 7
ENTITY_ART_IMAGE = 8
CONTAINS_UNIT = 9
CONTAINS_ITEM = 10
CONTAINED_IN_ITEM = 11
PROJECTILE = 12
UNIT = 13
UNIT_MILKEE = 14
UNIT_TRAINEE = 15
UNIT_ITEMOWNER = 16
UNIT_TRADEBRINGER = 17
UNIT_HOLDER = 18
UNIT_WORKER = 19
UNIT_CAGEE = 20
UNIT_BEATEE = 21
UNIT_FOODRECEIVER = 22
UNIT_KIDNAPEE = 23
UNIT_PATIENT = 24
UNIT_INFANT = 25
UNIT_SLAUGHTEREE = 26
UNIT_SHEAREE = 27
UNIT_SUCKEE = 28
UNIT_REPORTEE = 29
BUILDING = 30
BUILDING_CIVZONE_ASSIGNED = 31
BUILDING_TRIGGER = 32
BUILDING_TRIGGERTARGET = 33
BUILDING_CHAIN = 34
BUILDING_CAGED = 35
BUILDING_HOLDER = 36
BUILDING_WELL_TAG = 37
BUILDING_USE_TARGET_1 = 38
BUILDING_USE_TARGET_2 = 39
BUILDING_DESTINATION = 40
BUILDING_NEST_BOX = 41
ENTITY = 42
ENTITY_STOLEN = 43
ENTITY_OFFERED = 44
ENTITY_ITEMOWNER = 45
LOCATION = 46
INTERACTION = 47
ABSTRACT_BUILDING = 48
HISTORICAL_EVENT = 49
SPHERE = 50
SITE = 51
SUBREGION = 52
FEATURE_LAYER = 53
HISTORICAL_FIGURE = 54
ENTITY_POP = 55
CREATURE = 56
UNIT_RIDER = 57
UNIT_CLIMBER = 58
UNIT_GELDEE = 59
KNOWLEDGE_SCHOLAR_FLAG = 60
ACTIVITY_EVENT = 61
VALUE_LEVEL = 62
LANGUAGE = 63
WRITTEN_CONTENT = 64
POETIC_FORM = 65
MUSICAL_FORM = 66
DANCE_FORM = 67
BUILDING_DISPLAY_FURNITURE = 68
UNIT_INTERROGATEE = 69And the other, shorter enum list:
Code: (specific_ref_type enum) [Select]
UNIT = 1
JOB = 2
BUILDING_PARTY = 3
ACTIVITY = 4
ITEM_GENERAL = 5
EFFECT = 6
PETINFO_PET = 7
PETINFO_OWNER = 8
VERMIN_EVENT = 9
VERMIN_ESCAPED_PET = 10
ENTITY = 11
PLOT_INFO = 12
VIEWSCREEN = 13
UNIT_ITEM_WRESTLE = 14
NULL_REF = 15
HIST_FIG = 16
SITE = 17
ARTIFACT = 18
ITEM_IMPROVEMENT = 19
COIN_FRONT = 20
COIN_BACK = 21
DETAIL_EVENT = 22
SUBREGION = 23
FEATURE_LAYER = 24
ART_IMAGE = 25
CREATURE_DEF = 26
ENTITY_ART_IMAGE = 27
ENTITY_POPULATION = 29
BREED = 30
NONE = -1What are the proper terms?If VERMIN_ESCAPED_PET is similar to what you have, then you might want to double-check the code referenced in the original question.
Post by: voliol on October 28, 2021, 04:35:22 am
What is the question here, all of the post? Only the edit is marked in green.
Post by: Bumber on October 28, 2021, 05:36:57 pm
What is the question here, all of the post? Only the edit is marked in green.
Would like to know the proper names of the enum values, for verification. They're just integers in compiled code, so DFHack has them as best guesses based on use. Posting the correct names would be easier and more useful than answering the original (now unmarked and spoilered) question, which involves a specific segment of code.
DFHack's term "VERMIN_ESCAPED_PET" is either overly specific, DFHack's got something out of order, or Toady's code is checking the wrong one for some reason.
Edit: Just added the integer values to my post and noticed "CONTAINS_ITEM" and "VERMIN_ESCAPED_PET" share a value of 10. This might suggest it's an issue in the code, but "UNIT_HOLDER" doesn't have the same problem.
Post by: Mobbstar on October 29, 2021, 04:03:58 am
Do you intend for spheres to become exposed in the Raws? On one hand, they are supposed to be universal concepts that derive their flavour from intersection, and thus wouldn't need any raw mods. On the other hand, some settings could benefit from revamping or adding spheres. (e.g. The Long Night (https://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14134) could split "animals" between "mutants" and "nanites", and add "machine" deities.)
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 29, 2021, 06:22:46 am
It has been mentioned before[1] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8284471#msg8284471) that divine spheres will be customisable to some extend via the Mythgen params/editor. Does it stop there?
Reading off what I think you mean for Toady's reply, probably similarly to exposing FB's generation, parts of it are too embedded in to code (running stringdumps for data you can't re-use for instance) with not a lot of room for tokenization ; which got centralized, you can build your own FB's, Werebeasts, or Clowns and overlap them to replace the randomized ones, but this is still finnicky modding subject.
So when we might get a sphere with some token specification after the map-rewrite, it might be simple enough to document as we can already see with temple designs alternating through spheres related to dieties, dictating the kind of tokens for biome that a non-copy paste fantastical area-map would require (as that is the only thing outside of soil and populations that is static, and a more likely avenue for pursuing your question), then let the sphere run its course into interpreting that information, and really i dont think for a while we'll be able to inference more information behind this.
And the Mythgen uses this random-gen or input information, but it'd probably just work without mythgen as being "just there" with less intermediary details like the HFS, to randomize aspects of it like clown reincarnation/intelligent mortal afterlife stuff.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on October 30, 2021, 02:25:29 pm
Post by: clinodev on October 31, 2021, 05:02:28 am
When there's a Steam Release, is there going to be an advertising campaign? Seeing ads for DF would be a ray of sunshine in the darkest timeline.
I don't know the answer to this, but I can say DF is a publicist's dream indy game. Every single update gets articles somewhere it seems, and has for years before Premium was announced. Sure, a ridiculous number of those articles are bad and filled with incorrect info, (my "favorite types" being "It's only in ascii!" but all the pictures are mixed Phoebus and Ironhand "borrowed" from ancient forum posts, and "It's the best game ever and you shouldn't even try to play, you're too dumb.") It's impossible to be involved in "games" and not see DF on the regular.
Post by: Quietust on November 01, 2021, 12:38:50 pm
For what it's worth, all of the "general_ref" names were taken directly from the class names (which are visible in RTTI), and for the other enum there's a function that's used to load references from savegames and it logs unique error messages for each type (e.g. "Nuked Vermin Reference (Escaped Pet)") and I used those for the names.
What is the question here, all of the post? Only the edit is marked in green.
Would like to know the proper names of the enum values, for verification. They're just integers in compiled code, so DFHack has them as best guesses based on use. Posting the correct names would be easier and more useful than answering the original (now unmarked and spoilered) question, which involves a specific segment of code.
DFHack's term "VERMIN_ESCAPED_PET" is either overly specific, DFHack's got something out of order, or Toady's code is checking the wrong one for some reason.
Edit: Just added the integer values to my post and noticed "CONTAINS_ITEM" and "VERMIN_ESCAPED_PET" share a value of 10. This might suggest it's an issue in the code, but "UNIT_HOLDER" doesn't have the same problem.
Post by: Toady One on November 01, 2021, 06:35:47 pm
Quote from: ArmokGoB
Are there any plans to add giant desert scorpions back in?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8318896#msg8318896
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8318903#msg8318903
Giant bark scorpions live in the desert, though it doesn't seem to satisfy people. I'm not sure which desert species people like.
Quote from: ror6ax
How are big enemies going to be represented visually in Steam version? Will they be multi-tile?
Has there been any thought to visualisation of damage/fight? Once dwarf and the enemy are on adjacent tiles, what will we see/hear?
delphonso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8319349#msg8319349
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8319741#msg8319741
Yeah, Mr_Crabman's correct - the larger creatures are displayed at up to 3x2 tiles, but don't actually occupy tiles any differently.
We have the more graphical blood and upcoming corpses and chunks, and we have some effect animation for strikes on the recipients of attacks yet to test. We can't really animate the attacking creatures themselves easily - there are lots and lots of creatures and we need to finish the procedural ones before we even consider going back and adding any frames. The music/sound question is complicated and we'll have to continue updating as we go on that.
Quote from: GOTOTOTOE
would it be possible to change the layer fog in caverns to a darker purpler hue? the reason light works like this irl is because the sky is blue, but underground this wouldn't be the case, meaning right now the caves feel really outside for something hat's supposedly pretty deep
We're at a few places on this - we like the blue outside, and we want to see if it can be merged with a different color inside, and it's unclear if that's going to work. If it doesn't, we may change it. In either case, either the one or 2+ colors will be editable.
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1. Assuming it's still not clear whether Linux (and Mac) support will be possible on the Steam release, at what point/milestone in development would this be investigated?
2. Obviously this depends on player feedback, but after the initial Steam release (and fixing any major problems that may arise), would there a second (small) UI pass made (and/or enhancement of modding capabilities/framework), or is it just immediately onto resuming the villain stuff?
3. Can you say roughly what sort of priority/frequency future updates to modding/workshop capabilities or UI enhancements (or even graphical, such as smooth movement between tiles for instance) would have after the initial release (and if there is one, the "smaller second pass") in general? Contingent on player feedback of course.
4. What screens/menus remain to be done for fortress mode? With the military stuff hopefully done by the time you read/respond to this, I think it's the civ screen and whatever is left in the "info hub", but what is left in the info hub, and is there anything else outside the info hub and civ screen?
5. Is the info presented in the top bar final? For instance, I think somewhere there was something asked a while back about whether it might mislead players about needing to keep the entire fort fully active at all times by showing the number of idlers, and on wider screens there's quite a bit of unused space (granted, maybe some of it should be reserved for future updates).
1. I think when fort mode and the lead up from the title screen through world generation to embark to the fort is nearing completion, we're going to see where we are at with the other OSs, the classic conversion, Steam workshop, achievements, legends, adventure, and arena. We need to head toward the minimum viable release before we spend any serious time on anything else, and it's hard to have those discussions with all the involved parties until I have more of an idea when I'll be done with the fort stuff. We're much closer now, anyway. Military felt like a big step.
2+3. It's just impossible to say right now. Everything depends on how the release goes.
4. Minecart hauling stuff. Several tabs on the view sheets. Some pressure plate stuff. The civ screen and the info screen tabs (whichever ones we are keeping, they are still in flux as we go - certainly the justice stuff needs to be done.) Diplomacy / petitions. The new notion of alerts. Smaller stuff like hotkeys for recentering, follow cam, and so forth. Any tutorialization we are going to do. The save/load restructuring, including how mods etc. get loaded/etc. And of course there's doing the map part for embark as well, if you count that toward fort mode.
5. No, it's not. Idlers is gone in the latest videos if I recollect. The main idea on the table was just to make it customizable, since people are interested in different things, sometimes at different times in the same fort. We can add this to the list in question #4! Along with settings generally.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
I see there have been changes to workshops, menus, and jobs, and I've seen the graphical representations of these changes, but for most of them I haven't seen corresponding ASCII versions. If I choose to use the ASCII version, will I be able to identify everything immediately or will many things be unfamiliar?
How well does all the information fit into an ASCII screen? How will it look at smaller than 1920x1080 resolution and/or resized windows?
I've seen how lower layers look in the graphical version, will there be similar effects in the ASCII version?
How wed are you to the ANSI colours, will you move to a broader colour palette in the ASCII version at any point?
Are you working in ASCII first and then moving to graphics, or are you working with graphics first and then going back to ASCII?
How do floaty menus work in ASCII? Do they snap to a grid or are they unaligned with the background graphics?
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8320559#msg8320559
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8320570#msg8320570
The replies cover a lot of it (thanks!).
There are lots of menu changes - the new military screen we've been showing for instance, is quite different, and will look basically that way in ASCII.
My dwarf computer is 1366x768, and things work there, and at windows somewhat smaller than that. It's difficult though to preserve things all the way down to 80x25 console sizes (640x300) or even close to that, and there'd need to be an extra push to attain that level of smallness.
The main tie between me and the 16 colors (which even persists in a lot of the graphical text) is just the sheer number of color change calls in the old version. But we're technically decoupled now from both color and glyph count dependencies, as PatrikLundell says. Some of the ASCII issues we had with a white 'g' being a zillion things can be handled now in whatever way we like; the most popular perhaps being the addition of 1-2 extra glyph sheets. For purists, I'm not sure - a Moria-style 'q' for quadruped system might be required and it would still just be totally confusing.
None of the menus are currently 'floaty' in a click-and-drag style, though this is possible at some point. Even then, they'd align with the ASCII grid.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Will mythologies and magic systems be customizable? And if that's the case, will they also be exportable?
2.Are there ever going to be procedural weapons?
3.Are cage traps and drawbridges going to get nerfed with the siege improvements?
4.Are guilds and religions going to be expanded upon before the big wait?
5.Are longer weapons like spears ever going to actually have more range?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8322521#msg8322521
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8322545#msg8322545
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8322584#msg8322584
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8322624#msg8322624
1. The replies cover the first part, and I haven't thought as much about exportability. Certainly if the current xml is any indication, there'd be some form of exporting, and there probably isn't a reason to make it in a format which can't be reincorporated.
2. We have the ones we have now, cordoned off, but yeah, we'd hoped to do it for the main cultures at some point - lots of problems to overcome there, since we can't just throw the player into a deep muck of randomness without them opting in.
3. Should goblins be able to free their friends that get trapped in cages? If they can, should the player be able to lift/drop the cage somehow to keep their prisoner? Should a third goblin go down a hallway where two others have been chopped up by saws? If so, how would they react instead to a maze of traps? How do they deal with an inaccessible fort? It's kind of an arms race thing - the game needs a ton of nerfs, the way things are now, for people that want challenging invasions, but hopefully also we can provide some additional tools. Though our main ideas there involve stuff like moving fortress bits and other complications which seem map-rewrite linked. We'll have to see how it plays out.
4. Probably not very much - things touch upon them in the villains area, for example, so I wouldn't rule it out, but the big entity rewrite is later.
5. It's the plan, yeah, though when the combat update is I'm not sure. We've done reach in side projects and it adds a lot, but it's never seemed to be time for the combat update in DF, as with several other updates. Range/reach is neat both over multiple tiles, but also just for adjacent fighters that have a situation, somewhat like wrestling, when somebody with a dagger might be well within the spear point, to their advantage, or held at the point and almost completely unable to attack, with both fighters attempting to improve their position while/instead of attacking. Another interface nightmare, of course, on top of all the current combat information, especially keeping it consistent when 3+ fighters are involved, but it's good stuff.
Quote from: Immortal-D
On the subject of tackling the more complicated interfaces for Steam, have you had a chance to look at bins & containers in general? i.e. Seeds within bags within barrels within stockpiles.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8322876#msg8322876
I'm not sure what you are asking specifically here, in terms of problems to be addressed. There are new conveniences - from the item sheets, you can zip easily down into containers and then back up to whatever/whoever is holding the object, which wasn't possible before, and barrels (and later bins) graphically show their general contents a bit now.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
1) Would we maybe be seeing some of this equipment screen being designed for military recycled for domestic trinkets (earrings etc) on a dwarf's person in the future?
2) Lastly, with the slots assigned imparticular would they manifest with the BP of the creature using some of the existing cues like hearing token parts required for earrings? (ei, ettins would have two helmet-slots for two independent heads, or if BP was tokened not to, retracting the choice of a slot)
That last bit is a bit suggestiony, but i have faith that it might hopefully eliminate the long standing recessive code artifact that quadruped people (along the lines of centaurs) wear two pairs of pants and shoes over their hooves.
1. We have a list of their worn/etc. items displayed in the items tab. Do you mean specifically stuff they want to pick up but haven't picked up yet? It doesn't seem as pressing.
2. I haven't changed how the assignments work, so any issues with mods/residents are ongoing. The changes I've made are just in how the existing information is displayed (and getting rid of some pointers and doing some other changes to get at the raid issues, again.)
Quote from: Bumber
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8324639#msg8324639
Would like to know the proper names of the enum values, for verification. They're just integers in compiled code, so DFHack has them as best guesses based on use. Posting the correct names would be easier and more useful than answering the original (now unmarked and spoilered) question, which involves a specific segment of code.
DFHack's term "VERMIN_ESCAPED_PET" is either overly specific, DFHack's got something out of order, or Toady's code is checking the wrong one for some reason.
Edit: Just added the integer values to my post and noticed "CONTAINS_ITEM" and "VERMIN_ESCAPED_PET" share a value of 10. This might suggest it's an issue in the code, but "UNIT_HOLDER" doesn't have the same problem.
Quietust: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8325610#msg8325610
Yeah, those are the correct names, as Quietust says. There are two different sets of references, because one of them is older and more pointery and bad but I haven't been able to update all of the uses. When it checks for an item's holder, there are three possibilities: it can be held by an item (GENERAL_REF_CONTAINED_IN_ITEM), it can be held by a unit (GENERAL_REF_UNIT_HOLDER), or it can be a vermin event that holds an item - these generally come from escaped pets that get on the ground, because regular vermin don't have an item generated until you pick them up, though I suppose it is possible now to pick up a vermin event, making it an item, and then drop it, so it's not technically always an escaped pet (or there's probably animal trap route as well)? Assuming the item isn't deleted instantly in that case (which I don't remember.) But that's REFERENCE_VERMIN_ESCAPEDPET, one of the older pointery ones that points to the vermin event as the 'container' of the item, where map coordinates are stored.
Quote from: Mobbstar
It has been mentioned before that divine spheres will be customisable to some extend via the Mythgen params/editor. Does it stop there?
Do you intend for spheres to become exposed in the Raws? On one hand, they are supposed to be universal concepts that derive their flavour from intersection, and thus wouldn't need any raw mods. On the other hand, some settings could benefit from revamping or adding spheres. (e.g. The Long Night could split "animals" between "mutants" and "nanites", and add "machine" deities.)
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8324966#msg8324966
It's sort of similar to custom attributes, which we were also planning, where a world would add some basic new metaphysical creature trait, and then knit it into the procedural systems. Custom spheres are like that - they could be tied to many systems, but they'd lack some of the fundamentalness of the base notions. And this is okay, since it's still a big step! In your example, the ties feel like they are mostly related to raw-defined objects (like machine creatures and items, or however it works), and that's the perfect thing for it. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if over time, our default spheres like "animals" "fish" etc., became custom spheres, while others like "jealousy" or whatever remained base spheres. If we further systematize emotions, actions, etc., even that could change. But we're only going to get to so much, ha ha ha.
So there's some hope for this, overall, to get at things that feel hard-coded, even if it's only 'halfway'. Hopefully it'll be in the ways that matter.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
When there's a Steam Release, is there going to be an advertising campaign? Seeing ads for DF would be a ray of sunshine in the darkest timeline.
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8325367#msg8325367
Ha ha ha, it would be amusing, though I'll generally be trusting Kitfox's judgment on the effectiveness of things per dollar spent etc., which is always changing as the internet/etc. evolves and people ignore some types of things and pay attention to others. We may be doing well enough, since as clinodev says, we've been lucky enough to get attention without pressing too hard for it.
Post by: clinodev on November 02, 2021, 07:07:32 am
>Quote from: Immortal-D
> On the subject of tackling the more complicated interfaces for Steam, have you had a chance to look at bins & containers in general? i.e. Seeds within bags within barrels within stockpiles.
I suspect they're getting st things like the "seed spam" you get when a dwarf grabs the seed barrel and drags it to the dining room to pick up a plump helmet spawn, leading to mass cancellation spam messages from the planter who just knows the barrel is gone. It's solved "easily enough" by making a feeder stockpile that takes seeds from anywhere but has no barrels, and a stockpile with barrels that takes from it, but it's a source of endless confusion for newer players "I know for sure I have seeds, but it says there aren't any!" I have no suggestions for a fix, but it's an ever-present issue for newer players.
>Quote from: FantasticDorf
> 1) Would we maybe be seeing some of this equipment screen being designed for military recycled for domestic trinkets (earrings etc) on a dwarf's person in the future?
I suspect they'd like to see the same sort of code used in the military screen to assign jewelry and possibly clothing, etc., to a particular dwarf. This would be fantastic for filling needs as opposed to the current "make everyone haul trinkets between stockpiles in a loop until they all take something" system, and very nice for playing dress up with priests and nobles.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 02, 2021, 08:23:12 am
Thanks as always for the replies!
>Quote from: Immortal-D
> On the subject of tackling the more complicated interfaces for Steam, have you had a chance to look at bins & containers in general? i.e. Seeds within bags within barrels within stockpiles.
I suspect they're getting st things like the "seed spam" you get when a dwarf grabs the seed barrel and drags it to the dining room to pick up a plump helmet spawn, leading to mass cancellation spam messages from the planter who just knows the barrel is gone. It's solved "easily enough" by making a feeder stockpile that takes seeds from anywhere but has no barrels, and a stockpile with barrels that takes from it, but it's a source of endless confusion for newer players "I know for sure I have seeds, but it says there aren't any!" I have no suggestions for a fix, but it's an ever-present issue for newer players.
Oh, i don't experience this too often but this makes more sense in the relevant context. Normally the way i do it, finished meals are laid out ready for dwarves closest to their public areas, and raw food is moved further away in their little production loops to automate seed retrieval, but dwarves still occasionally if they have a preference for the food, run all the way to the industrial/agriculture area to retrieve raw food and leave seeds out (similarly to dwarves picking up 1 barrel at a time to drink, vs the relatively new use of mutliple goblets over a barrel) so a few bits of raw-food-ingredients for these trouble dwarves are cooked especially to get around it.
>Quote from: FantasticDorf
> 1) Would we maybe be seeing some of this equipment screen being designed for military recycled for domestic trinkets (earrings etc) on a dwarf's person in the future?
I suspect they'd like to see the same sort of code used in the military screen to assign jewelry and possibly clothing, etc., to a particular dwarf. This would be fantastic for filling needs as opposed to the current "make everyone haul trinkets between stockpiles in a loop until they all take something" system, and very nice for playing dress up with priests and nobles.
Close but not quite. I was more interested in seeing UI slots replacing the current lists-for-items as toady says in more accurately pre-reading the requirements of the creature (RPGish inventory slots least how the new military inv screen looks like), as right now you can quite accurately throw anything on them armor level 0 and you're not 100% sure if its nessecary to fit them, like missing underwear which is always picked up as nessecary from invading forces. To the side, mild hope improved logic through the new military-screen could help solve problems like dwarves picking up to wear x5 metal crowns or bracelets, then weighing themselves down to death.
I do like your interpretation of my question better though for forcing the monarch to wear a artifact crown all the time, even though its not technically accurate with my intent. :D I can already force a civilian ideal uniform through the military inventory screen at current to be least conflicting with layers, or equip all leather.
Post by: teh sam on November 02, 2021, 05:05:04 pm
Post by: voliol on November 02, 2021, 05:18:57 pm
How do these other forum members (like Clinodev, PatrikLundell, FantasticDorf and so many others) help answer questions, particularly ones that seem like they would require knowledge of the actual code? Do they just have amazing memories for when you've answered similar questions in the past? How do they know so much?
When I first saw this comment it was red and sparkly, and supposed it was a novel way to direct the question at the people of this thread instead of Toady. Now it probably wasn’t (considering the color changed), but it was intruiging while it lasted.
My secret trick is the ”print” button on the top of the Future of the Fortress thread (and all others as well) which gives you a version of the thread where Ctrl-F is fully applicable.
Post by: delphonso on November 02, 2021, 05:48:16 pm
How do these other forum members (like Clinodev, PatrikLundell, FantasticDorf and so many others) help answer questions, particularly ones that seem like they would require knowledge of the actual code? Do they just have amazing memories for when you've answered similar questions in the past? How do they know so much?
Some people have also spent time digging around the code with the aid of DFHack (and presumably other tools). You can see that in Bumber's previous question.
Post by: clinodev on November 02, 2021, 06:00:22 pm
How do these other forum members (like Clinodev, PatrikLundell, FantasticDorf and so many others) help answer questions, particularly ones that seem like they would require knowledge of the actual code? Do they just have amazing memories for when you've answered similar questions in the past? How do they know so much?
I'm flattered to be listed, but I'm not one to know about deep technical matters. I can fortunately confirm we have several mad geniuses in here who not only read the forum but have been poking, prodding, de-compiling, writing test tools, and coding utilities, often with Tarn's help, for years. I'm continually as impressed as you are with folks like PatrikLundell, FantasticDorf, and too many others to easily name!
For more general, "Toady said," things, I moderate on the /r/dwarffortress subreddit and the Kitfox Discord, so I end up reading and sometimes even answering questions more frequently than most folks, and it sticks after a while. I also do my best to make sure people outside the forum see all the updates from here so I'll often have formatted all the text and chosen clickbaity quotes, leading me to read things several times. I can often remember previous answers well enough to find the actual quotes.
Post by: eerr on November 02, 2021, 07:31:52 pm
A long time ago, you dealt with a specific problem in ansi,
Doors and floodgates were too bright when made out of brightly colored stones.
So bright that people would refuse and dispose of, doors and floodgates made out of said stone, because of the glare.
The colors of many stones were changed to less bright versions of said regolith, while microcline and orthoclase were given a darker secondary color for doors and floodgates. cinnabar was outright made darker in color to reflect real life better, with the new red being acceptable enough for doors/floodgates.
1. Do you have plans to add more colorations of various stones (I'm assuming this would be post-release)?
2. What does this mean for stones that aren't a solid color even from a fair distance, especially puddingstone or gem walls?
(I've looked at the gem walls in the videos and they don't really stand out)
Post by: Immortal-D on November 02, 2021, 08:38:35 pm
Quote from: Immortal-DOn the subject of tackling the more complicated interfaces for Steam, have you had a chance to look at bins & containers in general? i.e. Seeds within bags within barrels within stockpiles.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8322876#msg8322876
I'm not sure what you are asking specifically here, in terms of problems to be addressed. There are new conveniences - from the item sheets, you can zip easily down into containers and then back up to whatever/whoever is holding the object, which wasn't possible before, and barrels (and later bins) graphically show their general contents a bit now.
To clarify for Bins specifically; A Dwarf will claim an item inside the Bin for a task, and the entire contents of the Bin then become inaccessible for the duration. If the Dwarf is interrupted or far away, an entire stack of cloth or bolts becomes unavailable until that retrieval has cleared.
Post by: delphonso on November 02, 2021, 08:46:38 pm
1. Do you have plans to add more colorations of various stones (I'm assuming this would be post-release)?
2. What does this mean for stones that aren't a solid color even from a fair distance, especially puddingstone or gem walls?
(I've looked at the gem walls in the videos and they don't really stand out)
All of these are editable in the raws, and I expect the Steam release will follow the same structure.
Quote
[INORGANIC:PUDDINGSTONE]DISPLAY_COLOR can manage all that, plus your color settings in init. Or am I missing your meaning?
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STONE_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:puddingstone][DISPLAY_COLOR:6:7:0][TILE:233]
[ENVIRONMENT_SPEC:CONGLOMERATE:CLUSTER:100][AQUIFER]
[IS_STONE]
[SOLID_DENSITY:2000]
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 03, 2021, 03:49:03 am
How do these other forum members (like Clinodev, PatrikLundell, FantasticDorf and so many others) help answer questions, particularly ones that seem like they would require knowledge of the actual code? Do they just have amazing memories for when you've answered similar questions in the past? How do they know so much?It's been answered already, but it's a combination of past answers by Toady, getting acquainted with (some) DFHack structures (and, to some extent, participating in mapping them), posts about how things work by people on the forum, own play experience, and programming experience coupled with an idea of how Toady organizes data. All of that filtered through a memory that's far from perfect.
Organized people, like Clinodev, also take and keep notes.
Post by: Spriggans on November 03, 2021, 04:43:04 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 03, 2021, 12:38:32 pm
How do these other forum members (like Clinodev, PatrikLundell, FantasticDorf and so many others) help answer questions, particularly ones that seem like they would require knowledge of the actual code?
Searchbar filters by topic, which takes a lot of strain but not the entirety of it off memory, elsewise too much time on my hands to enjoy browsing the forum and look into things which i often prove my first assumptions wrong.
After the rewriting is complete, will you leave some easter eggs in the game relating the "old" way to play the game ? Like the infamous unfriendly UMKH keys ? Would something happen if you use them ?
I lament that DF has formed my muscle memory hands, which their sprawl all over the keyboard will eventually be obsolete without a 'legacy' preset key-binding option. So i assume broadly no, but with freed up keys, they might be reallocated (which complicates the idea around a legacy keyset without going into weird shift and alt click technicalities). I am also interested to see what a new 'friendly' embark screen UI will be like, if theres any general refinement in the presentation of a embark, since most players outsource to DFhack for the info they actually want, like a geological survey hinging on almost cheating on the content of the soil and ore densities/types.
But i suppose in context, you can say dwarves run around with dousing rods to get the briefest of ideas what lies on embark, or least they know already without calling upon generalized geographical knowledge (abstract from scholarly pursuits, but maybe probably shouldn't be so omniscient about it without good reason)
1. Do you have plans to add more colorations of various stones (I'm assuming this would be post-release)?
2. What does this mean for stones that aren't a solid color even from a fair distance, especially puddingstone or gem walls?
(I've looked at the gem walls in the videos and they don't really stand out)
All of these are editable in the raws, and I expect the Steam release will follow the same structure.
Color can also be gradiented, in its own thing in color.text in the initialization, in order to hue (some graphic mods only really repackage colors), so i assume its part-graphics, and part counselling what complementary and harmonizing colors to apply to make it 'click'. I do hope much though that the fog itself will have a token to influence in the final product so we dont have to work around the basegame color scheme and can just incorporate our own.
Post by: clinodev on November 03, 2021, 05:39:49 pm
I am also interested to see what a new 'friendly' embark screen UI will be like, if theres any general refinement in the presentation of a embark, since most players outsource to DFhack for the info they actually want, like a geological survey hinging on almost cheating on the content of the soil and ore densities/types.
But i suppose in context, you can say dwarves run around with dousing rods to get the briefest of ideas what lies on embark, or least they know already without calling upon generalized geographical knowledge (abstract from scholarly pursuits, but maybe probably shouldn't be so omniscient about it without good reason)
True, DFhack's `prospect` is a bit overly generous with quantities and depths, but really the idea that dwarves would stop at some random location on the strength of "There's some kinds of metals here, somewhere!" as in standard vanilla embarking that's historically strange and unrealistic.
If you surveyed DF players about what metals and minerals they hoped to find in an embark, I suspect iron would head the list, with gold, silver, copper and coal all pretty high up. All of those are commonly found in surface outcrops and placer deposits in streams and rivers. Even in Roman times iron mines were placed more depending on convenient forests to cut for fuel than any difficulty finding the iron, which we know later miners would often locate by walking around after a rain and smelling* the distinctive metallic odor. Once embarked in DF, you'll routinely find one or more of these in stream beds if they're present, or boulders and outcrops, so they're only really hidden when choosing the site. I imagine dwarven caravans and other surface travelers would make notes as they go, and they'd probably be doing the same in the caverns for deep metals. I hope our hearty band of seven would at least check the river banks, and the rocks at their feet!
None of this takes into account any special dwarven relationship with stone or mining!
I'd like to see something more like PatrikLundell's `embark-assistant` (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169634.0) make it into vanilla. It's a more fine-grained version of vanilla site search (https://i.imgur.com/jfORN6o.png), able to check for individual minerals and features (https://i.imgur.com/uOrevFQ.png), without concerning itself overly with the quantity of resources like `prospect`.
* I've lived in a place with enough surface deposits of copper ore that half the valley smelled like wet pennies after a rain, and the stones would be blue or green depending on how wet they were, like great boulder-sized humidity gauges. It was only saved from commercial mining by the fact that it would cost so much to build proper roads through the mountains (and a small side helping of the local people having defended themselves by strength of arms in a not too distant civil war.)
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 03, 2021, 07:16:06 pm
I am also interested to see what a new 'friendly' embark screen UI will be like, if theres any general refinement in the presentation of a embark, since most players outsource to DFhack for the info they actually want, like a geological survey hinging on almost cheating on the content of the soil and ore densities/types.
But i suppose in context, you can say dwarves run around with dousing rods to get the briefest of ideas what lies on embark, or least they know already without calling upon generalized geographical knowledge (abstract from scholarly pursuits, but maybe probably shouldn't be so omniscient about it without good reason)
True, DFhack's `prospect` is a bit overly generous with quantities and depths, but really the idea that dwarves would stop at some random location on the strength of "There's some kinds of metals here, somewhere!" as in standard vanilla embarking that's historically strange and unrealistic.
Id like to think that maybe other races pushed by their values and ethics would tend to lean more on different aspect of quantities, like elves concerning themselves more prominently counting trees, humans with plotted road-lines of how busy the traffic is, contrary to dwarf's mineral obsessions but then id be prancing off into suggestion-land more than likely.
And also interesting information about smelly mineral deposits, learn something new every day.
Quote from: Immortal-DOn the subject of tackling the more complicated interfaces for Steam, have you had a chance to look at bins & containers in general? i.e. Seeds within bags within barrels within stockpiles.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8322876#msg8322876
I'm not sure what you are asking specifically here, in terms of problems to be addressed. There are new conveniences - from the item sheets, you can zip easily down into containers and then back up to whatever/whoever is holding the object, which wasn't possible before, and barrels (and later bins) graphically show their general contents a bit now.
To clarify for Bins specifically; A Dwarf will claim an item inside the Bin for a task, and the entire contents of the Bin then become inaccessible for the duration. If the Dwarf is interrupted or far away, an entire stack of cloth or bolts becomes unavailable until that retrieval has cleared.
Bins have been blighted since forever, that much i can sympathize.
Usually its more than satisfactory do-without and use QSP's without grouping things up into end-node bin-container for its final journey on the trade-wagon or to be destroyed under a bridge or lava. To tack a similar related issue to the one you've described, a single bin can forcefully occupy 20 metal bars, only dispense 1 max at a time to a metalworking shop preventing larger orders, and delay work between jobs from the act of refilling 1 from the greater pool of supply, so is never really even useful for the thing its recommended to other than a transport container/garbage can.
Still coming back to the question, if it pertains exactly to the function of the military, there are other containers like boxes that need addressing (that can be made to store food which rots when it shouldnt), which thus far with developer diaries is uncertain what the outcome for the bin/stockpile/boxes in arrow storage situation is going to be with the new structure of the military inner workings (similar to the metal example, adding and withdrawing is inefficient for loose arrows, except for the mass bulk of transporting/exporting)
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 04, 2021, 05:05:02 am
(Making the Embark Assistant redundant would be the ultimate goal).
Post by: Fikilili on November 04, 2021, 04:35:44 pm
QuoteFikilili asks "You've mentioned that you're thinking of implementing a dragon randomizer in the game, that would generate different types of dragons, and I wondered how it would work. [etc.]"
The short answer to your question is yes. The talk gives a little lengthier answer taking dragons as an example, but segues into one about Pokémon breeding and Ultima Online chicken fights after a while. I doubt the details have been worked out yet.
Wait what? Sorry, I'm very late to the party, but when did Tarn answered my question? It's been a while. I'd love to hear about this Pokémon breeding and Ultima Chicken fight thing... Sounds weird but also extremely interesting.
Post by: Fikilili on November 04, 2021, 04:44:51 pm
QuoteFikilili asks "You've mentioned that you're thinking of implementing a dragon randomizer in the game, that would generate different types of dragons, and I wondered how it would work. [etc.]"
The short answer to your question is yes. The talk gives a little lengthier answer taking dragons as an example, but segues into one about Pokémon breeding and Ultima Online chicken fights after a while. I doubt the details have been worked out yet.
Wait what? Sorry, I'm very late to the party, but when did Tarn answered my question? It's been a while. I'd love to hear about this Pokémon breeding and Ultima Chicken fight thing... Sounds weird but also extremely interesting.
Oh sorry, that's in the most recent DF Talk. Damn, I haven't posted in a long time.
Post by: delphonso on November 04, 2021, 06:23:55 pm
After the rewriting is complete, will you leave some easter eggs in the game relating the "old" way to play the game ? Like the infamous unfriendly UMKH keys ? Would something happen if you use them ?
I was actually wondering about the intro screen. The opening animation is a reference to 2D DF - it is also iconic, and has a special place in our tiny, cold hearts.
Are we going to see a new opening animation?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 04, 2021, 07:24:15 pm
Post by: delphonso on November 04, 2021, 07:27:36 pm
"DF Classic" will be included in the package as an optional feature, so it's not like the old-school intro screen will be rendered totally obsolete.
To clarify, I'm looking forward to a new one - even if it's the same intro but in the new art style.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 04, 2021, 07:39:31 pm
Post by: LordBaal on November 04, 2021, 08:08:19 pm
Post by: Mr Crabman on November 05, 2021, 07:24:18 am
To clarify, I'm looking forward to a new one - even if it's the same intro but in the new art style.
It would be awesome to see a remastered version of the current one; even though its artstyle isn't really the same as the Premium tileset, this is a good example of a brilliantly made remaster I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg1xt26eAdE
It really seems to preserve a similar feeling as the current intro, largely because of the color palette I believe, even though presumably the original intro only used those colors for the ASCII aesthetics (the extreme darkness/black background); in my opinion even a remastered intro should definitely stick to the same color scheme.
Post by: Schmaven on November 05, 2021, 03:43:03 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 05, 2021, 04:18:45 pm
In the z-status screen, other than prepared meals, what else is included in the "Other" category of the Food Stores?
Bonemeal, as it usually is has its own category of powder_misc_creature (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Bone_meal), sort of nessecity given you could embark ontop of a bonegrinding monster lair and then need somewhere to store the "food", but not really useful unless you find somewhere to mod it in yourself, dwarves dont make a concious effort to attempt to eat it themselves.
A alternative would be like saying you could grind up animal-dye (a powdery substance) out of vermin (sea snails and beetles), which there are some mods to do exactly that to give more expansion to the category. IRL this would be like grinding pangolin scales or big-game horns into 'folk-medicine' as like what exists in certain Asian cultures.
Post by: Schmaven on November 05, 2021, 04:37:49 pm
In the z-status screen, other than prepared meals, what else is included in the "Other" category of the Food Stores?
Bonemeal, as it usually is has its own category of powder_misc_creature (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Bone_meal), sort of nessecity given you could embark ontop of a bonegrinding monster lair and then need somewhere to store the "food", but not really useful unless you find somewhere to mod it in yourself, dwarves dont make a concious effort to attempt to eat it themselves.
A alternative would be like saying you could grind up animal-dye (a powdery substance) out of vermin (sea snails and beetles), which there are some mods to do exactly that to give more expansion to the category. IRL this would be like grinding pangolin scales or big-game horns into 'folk-medicine' as like what exists in certain Asian cultures.
So for the more tame embarks, the "Other" category would most likely only be referring to prepared meals then?
Post by: Su on November 07, 2021, 04:57:39 am
[...] the most popular perhaps being the addition of 1-2 extra glyph sheets👀
do you have a shortlist of glyphs to add? will they be based on unicode glyphs, or be entirely custom?
Post by: Criperum on November 08, 2021, 03:52:04 am
1. Do we have to go down to find our squad as it was done in the beginning of video or it's just to show how awesome the fort is?
2. Can we now recruit more then 10 dwarfes in a squad?
Post by: squamous on November 12, 2021, 03:11:21 am
To what extent will we be able to modify the art style? Would it be possible to make something more akin to castlevania sprites with more "realistic" proportions and it simply being a matter of making all the pieces match up, or would artists have to conform to the existing big-headed style for dwarves and such?
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 12, 2021, 03:35:52 am
This, in turn, means that things that get smaller have to be depicted with a lower pixel count, which probably results in some artistic challenges.
I don't know if the clothing/held item tiles are designed as "uni-racial", i.e. end up in the same location regardless of the race using it. I suspect it is, though, which would raise the question whether that would be hard coded or whether ambitious tile set designers could make the placement dependent on race (and, probably, if that is supported, caste).
Post by: Quietust on November 12, 2021, 09:08:31 am
The wiki (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Status) states that it also includes stuff like flour, syrup, and even dyes.In the z-status screen, other than prepared meals, what else is included in the "Other" category of the Food Stores?
Bonemeal, as it usually is has its own category of powder_misc_creature (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Bone_meal), sort of nessecity given you could embark ontop of a bonegrinding monster lair and then need somewhere to store the "food", but not really useful unless you find somewhere to mod it in yourself, dwarves dont make a concious effort to attempt to eat it themselves.
A alternative would be like saying you could grind up animal-dye (a powdery substance) out of vermin (sea snails and beetles), which there are some mods to do exactly that to give more expansion to the category. IRL this would be like grinding pangolin scales or big-game horns into 'folk-medicine' as like what exists in certain Asian cultures.
So for the more tame embarks, the "Other" category would most likely only be referring to prepared meals then?
Looking at my disassembly of 0.47.05, the following items are counted: prepared meals, cheeses, raw (i.e. unprepared) fish, eggs, non-raw-edible plants/growths (since edible ones count as "Plants"), "food-like" globs (e.g. fat/tallow and rock nut paste/cakes), and all plant powders (including dyes).
Post by: Central Speaker Dan on November 13, 2021, 05:42:01 am
I know that, for the steam version of DF, you have enlisted the help of some of the community, including Meph. If the Steam/ItchIO release does well enough, is there any chance that you might contiunue to work with some community members on core developement?
I know that there are a lot of less demanding tasks that could be done by secondary devlopers, such as increasing animal diversity, or creating more detailed bodies for certain types of creature. I'm also aware that the community provides bug-fixes in their mods and mod-packs, thus another task that could potentially be done by a full or part-time emplyee..?
Basically, I'm very excited by the Steam release, and the potential that it's developement has for increasing developement speed and/or quality more generally, even if only in more minor areas of developement.
Post by: Schmaven on November 13, 2021, 05:54:26 am
...
The wiki (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Status) states that it also includes stuff like flour, syrup, and even dyes.
Looking at my disassembly of 0.47.05, the following items are counted: prepared meals, cheeses, raw (i.e. unprepared) fish, eggs, non-raw-edible plants/growths (since edible ones count as "Plants"), "food-like" globs (e.g. fat/tallow and rock nut paste/cakes), and all plant powders (including dyes).
I completely missed that paragraph in my skimming of that wiki page *doh!* Interesting that dyes are included in food stores. But plants to make cloth are also in there, so it's consistent. In the stocks tab, there is category exclusively for prepared meals, so that works for me.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 13, 2021, 07:32:23 am
Based on previous answers, Meph & Mayday will continue to work on "graphics" for quite some time.
When it comes to code Toady has so far been unwilling to outsource work, partially based on past experience (I believe there's some code he do doesn't quite understand), and it's also the issue with time taken up by management (which the graphics work has necessitated a fair bit of).
My guess is that bulk data production, such as e.g. creature definition, would be less of an issue, but there's still the matter of reviewing the results, which takes time from "real" production, and so far I don't think he's received a community work proposal that's been attractive enough to be accepted (at least in the last 5 or so years). It can also be noted that (perceived or real) "ethics" can get rather thorny when unpaid volunteer work is mixed with paid work for commercial products.
Post by: Central Speaker Dan on November 13, 2021, 07:57:03 am
That all makes perfect sense.
I hadn't thought about either the administrative time required to review the results of such work, or the potential volunteer/worker conflict. For the time being I'll assume that the offical response will more-less match yours. Thanks for the quick reply.
Post by: ruiruirui on November 22, 2021, 04:01:05 pm
Can I help with the title set? I would work for free just to help the development process. I'm not that active on the forum but... I'm willing to make anything possible to help
Post by: voliol on November 22, 2021, 04:03:25 pm
Hey Toady One !
Can I help with the title set? I would work for free just to help the development process. I'm not that active on the forum but... I'm willing to make anything possible to help
I think that question is best asked to Kitfox, though by the words used in the recent update they may already be covered.
Post by: clinodev on November 22, 2021, 05:13:33 pm
Hey Toady One !
Can I help with the title set? I would work for free just to help the development process. I'm not that active on the forum but... I'm willing to make anything possible to help
I think that question is best asked to Kitfox, though by the words used in the recent update they may already be covered.
(I passed it on to Kitfox earlier.)
Post by: IndigoFenix on November 26, 2021, 08:52:33 am
We have a pretty elaborate explanation for how ethics impact the chances of two civs going to war, but I haven't been able to find any calculation as far as values or spheres are concerned. Does it just add up the total differences in values? Do similar values reduce the chances of war, as with similar ethics?
Post by: Bumber on November 30, 2021, 06:11:33 pm
If I'm not mistaken, it's a check if the 5th bit of the tile's flags is false. This results in a return if the tile is undesignated or designated for UpDownStair, Ramp, or Upstair. It will proceed with the function if the tile is designated for Dig, Channel, or DownStair.
What's the purpose of this check, and is it working as intended? It seems most likely that it should be a check for a hidden tile.
This one's not technically a question, but I'll point it out:
I noticed in the checks for hidden units (used in avoiding announcements if the player can't see any units involved) that it seems like the check for being on a hidden tile won't occur if the unit is in a cage on the ground. This could potentially result in announcements being displayed that shouldn't if a caravan gets spooked and drops a caged animal while exiting through the caverns (I'll create a bug report if I can confirm that.) There might be more substantial implications in other parts of the code.
Post by: Toady One on December 02, 2021, 01:13:15 am
Quote from: teh sam
How do these other forum members (like Clinodev, PatrikLundell, FantasticDorf and so many others) help answer questions, particularly ones that seem like they would require knowledge of the actual code? Do they just have amazing memories for when you've answered similar questions in the past? How do they know so much?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8325941#msg8325941
delphonso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8325946#msg8325946
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8325948#msg8325948
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326017#msg8326017
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326108#msg8326108
I suppose I should let the answers speak for themselves there. And thanks for helping out!
Quote from: eerr
A long time ago, you dealt with a specific problem in ansi,
Doors and floodgates were too bright when made out of brightly colored stones.
So bright that people would refuse and dispose of, doors and floodgates made out of said stone, because of the glare.
The colors of many stones were changed to less bright versions of said regolith, while microcline and orthoclase were given a darker secondary color for doors and floodgates. cinnabar was outright made darker in color to reflect real life better, with the new red being acceptable enough for doors/floodgates.
1. Do you have plans to add more colorations of various stones (I'm assuming this would be post-release)?
2. What does this mean for stones that aren't a solid color even from a fair distance, especially puddingstone or gem walls?
(I've looked at the gem walls in the videos and they don't really stand out)
delphonso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8325972#msg8325972
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326108#msg8326108
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326170#msg8326170
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326193#msg8326193
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326315#msg8326315
1. We've had some luck with recolors already (e.g. weapons, non-economic minerals, if I recollect), but we haven't widely applied it yet. I imagine we'll eventually get to everything, but it's quite likely that e.g. wooden objects might all be brown to start (rather than some of the other underground colors.) But we may end up with a lot more stone/metal code recolors if we can get the balancing right.
2. We built the gem walls out of a few layers with a code recolor of one layer based on their descriptive color and its txt-linked RGB colors (like the data delphonso posted), which seemed to work pretty well. Some of them seem to pop out okay? Maybe the darker gem colors don't work as well this way. But yeah, the conglomerate etc. type walls that would graphically be multicolored haven't been done any justice yet, and it's harder to address specific materials due to how careful we have to be with map tiles and data in the render (vs items, where recolors are way cheaper), so that might take longer to get to on a future pass - the current map wall recolors/tiles/layers we have fall into a limited set of categories.
Quote
Quote from: SpriggansAfter the rewriting is complete, will you leave some easter eggs in the game relating the "old" way to play the game ? Like the infamous unfriendly UMKH keys ? Would something happen if you use them ?Quote from: delphonsoI was actually wondering about the intro screen. The opening animation is a reference to 2D DF - it is also iconic, and has a special place in our tiny, cold hearts.
Are we going to see a new opening animation?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326108#msg8326108
Ha ha ha, I'm not sure any memory of UMKH is an easter egg. It is too painful. And if I do leave easter eggs, it seems imperative that I don't tell anybody, I think.
Opening: I'm right at that area, the title and such. I'm going to do the save structure first, but these questions will need answering. I don't have the capability to play anything new-fangled in my engine (like, despite working with Kitfox, something like those Boyfriend Dungeon transformation videos are beyond my reach to display ha ha), and I think showing the old animation as it stands might be too confusing for people expecting something not in ASCII, so it has been a thing weighing on me, since I also like my old silly animation. I have no idea what will pop out of the process currently.
Quote from: Schmaven
In the z-status screen, other than prepared meals, what else is included in the "Other" category of the Food Stores?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326726#msg8326726
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8326728#msg8326728
Quietust: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8328618#msg8328618
Schmaven (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8328757#msg8328757
Ha, yeah, I assume Quietust's list is correct, and it's certainly dubiously decided, with dyes and such. I remember I altered this semi-recently (as in a few months) when I was looking at migrant waves again, and they used a similar calculation with some wrong stuff in it. Maybe the same function call... I've forgotten if that fixes it elsewhere... perhaps. I know I've noted it down.
Quote from: Su
(regarding Toady One: "the most popular perhaps being the addition of 1-2 extra glyph sheet")
do you have a shortlist of glyphs to add? will they be based on unicode glyphs, or be entirely custom?
Ha ha ha, I have problems in mind that need to be fixed, but since it has been so far out of reach until now, I didn't think at all about what the glyphs might actually be. Goblins seem hard, since you wouldn't want to introduce a new sheet from some language and be like "you get to be the goblins!" But if they don't have to be goblins, they get to be goats and/or geese, so perhaps something farther afield is warranted. I'd almost certainly use something like a unicode/etc. set of 256 or 512 new ones - if it goes more graphical than that, we have that covered already over in graphics land. Some sort of slight extension keeping the same ASCII-ish principle seems more proper, if the ASCII truly can't bear it... which seems true. That's the general sense, I think, anyway. A 'q'uadruped style rewrite to, say, pull mountain goats away from 'g' just seems like it creates more problems than it solves. But maybe not?
Quote from: Criperum
Regarding the Patrol Route video form Kitfox:
1. Do we have to go down to find our squad as it was done in the beginning of video or it's just to show how awesome the fort is?
2. Can we now recruit more then 10 dwarfes in a squad?
1. Like recenter on the leader, or other members? If I remember, you can recenter on the leader and open their sheet, and then we had a discussion about that should happen when you click on each image, or whether we should try to be more unified with other parts of the game and have a recenter icon, despite our total lack of space in that menu. Currently the images, I think, at least for the leader, but it kinda remains an open question.
2. This is the same as it has always been, in the sense of it being 10 in the raw txt file, but I don't think there's a hard-coded dependence. I don't remember if the old version had specific problems there. I've tried to add a lot more scrolling, though I probably missed cases.
Quote from: squamous
To what extent will we be able to modify the art style? Would it be possible to make something more akin to castlevania sprites with more "realistic" proportions and it simply being a matter of making all the pieces match up, or would artists have to conform to the existing big-headed style for dwarves and such?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8328587#msg8328587
Currently, the body/equipment/clothing tiles are layered without pixel-wise offsets needed to be typed in txt files or being hardcoded. This means that dwarves, goblins, etc. all have their own positioned body/equipment/clothing set images and you can draw whatever you want.
We only have one universal guts picture come to think of it, so there may be a few positions like that which are currently uniform, even between a horse and a person, and if it misses it misses, but overall you can make an entirely different look for the layered civilization creatures if you like. You can also layer non civilized creatures if you want - if you want to show a giant holding a sock, you can, though eventually the time and memory used would get pretty silly in this system, so there are limits. I'm not sure if we'll end up with an offset-enabled system in addition in the more distant future, or if we'll just leave it as is.
Quote from: Central Speaker Dan
I know that, for the steam version of DF, you have enlisted the help of some of the community, including Meph. If the Steam/ItchIO release does well enough, is there any chance that you might contiunue to work with some community members on core developement?
I know that there are a lot of less demanding tasks that could be done by secondary devlopers, such as increasing animal diversity, or creating more detailed bodies for certain types of creature. I'm also aware that the community provides bug-fixes in their mods and mod-packs, thus another task that could potentially be done by a full or part-time emplyee..?
Basically, I'm very excited by the Steam release, and the potential that it's developement has for increasing developement speed and/or quality more generally, even if only in more minor areas of developement.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8328765#msg8328765
Central Speaker Dan (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8328772#msg8328772
Yeah, I don't have much to add to PatrikLundell here. More will certainly be possible if all goes well, but the concerns still apply. I've considered e.g. releasing the code for world generation, but even that could be a whole can of mess when it comes to proper licensing vs. bug fixes people find and all that (not that people aren't already checking the inner workings and reporting bugs.) On the other hand, the original porting and SDL work (which was admittedly a bit more self-contained than worldgen would be) went forward and worked, with licenses from the contributors and a continuing code distribution so everybody could share in their work (you can grab it with the linux version currently).
The other way, bringing people in on the closed-source programming side as employees etc., well, it hasn't felt like an option, for a variety of reasons - some of those reasons may vanish, others may remain, but I haven't ruled anything out entirely.
Quote from: IndigoFenix
How are values and spheres evaluated when determining the relationship between two civilizations?
We have a pretty elaborate explanation for how ethics impact the chances of two civs going to war, but I haven't been able to find any calculation as far as values or spheres are concerned. Does it just add up the total differences in values? Do similar values reduce the chances of war, as with similar ethics?
Lemmeeeessseeeee... for spheres, the leader looks at their own religion (or their own metaphysical makeup if they are e.g. a demon) and their worship strength (for a demon, it uses a number a little higher than 100%), and sets that against the enemy leader's religion or metaphysical makeup. It looks for opposing spheres (in the same sense as they oppose when choosing them for gods), and if there are matches, it applies the penalty. I don't see any positive modifiers immediately.
I'm not sure values were ever involved in the direct comparison calculation, since (I think?) they came later and I didn't get around to adding new calcs or writing the historical sentences etc. Same seems to be true of the thinking about whether the leader wants to have a war generally - several personality facets matter, but their intellectual valuing of peace as an ideal doesn't seem to enter into it. And rather than a statement about the world, this is all down to implementation order, ha ha, since they'll only commemorate war-time stuff if they value power or don't value peace, but it doesn't enter into their actual thinking.
Quote from: Bumber
So, in the announcement code there are several checks for adventure mode. If a position is set for the announcement (x != -30000), the type is not one of CREATURE_SOUND, REGULAR_CONVERSATION, CONFLICT_CONVERSATION, or MECHANISM_SOUND, and the adventurer is not one of the units involved, there's a final check that will cause the function to return without doing the announcement.
If I'm not mistaken, it's a check if the 5th bit of the tile's flags is false. This results in a return if the tile is undesignated or designated for UpDownStair, Ramp, or Upstair. It will proceed with the function if the tile is designated for Dig, Channel, or DownStair.
What's the purpose of this check, and is it working as intended? It seems most likely that it should be a check for a hidden tile.
This one's not technically a question, but I'll point it out:
I noticed in the checks for hidden units (used in avoiding announcements if the player can't see any units involved) that it seems like the check for being on a hidden tile won't occur if the unit is in a cage on the ground. This could potentially result in announcements being displayed that shouldn't if a caravan gets spooked and drops a caged animal while exiting through the caverns (I'll create a bug report if I can confirm that.) There might be more substantial implications in other parts of the code.
In adventure mode, the visible tile flag is the 5th bit. It cohabitates with some of the dwarf mode digging stuff to save room. Since I think the dwarf hidden flag might be if you ever saw it, not if you currently see it, where a new flag was needed.
Re: the hidden check, there's a check right below (in the dwarf mode version) that checks if the unit's location tile is hidden regardless of caged state, and that should prevent the dropped caged unit from firing off any messages themselves, if I found the right part and if that's what you mean, though maybe I'm not getting the situation correctly. There's a check just above for the caged creature specifically being held by a creature, where it returns that creature's state instead. But if the caged creature is on the ground, it should continue on to the hidden tile check - though it only does this check if the creature in question is not player-controlled, so you still get messages in the event a player-controlled creature somehow makes it to hidden territory without revealing it.
Post by: clinodev on December 02, 2021, 06:30:34 am
Post by: Su on December 02, 2021, 09:12:48 pm
you've said in the past that you intend to update the bugtracker when you have time - is there any chance of that happening before the commercial release? it is over a decade[!] out of date now, after all.
in a similar vein: is there any chance of updating the forums to https? http is rather antiquated at this point - my browser complains every time i open the site, lol.
Post by: Uthimienure on December 02, 2021, 11:41:07 pm
Post by: Quietust on December 03, 2021, 07:22:43 pm
I think part of the reason it doesn't use SSL is because most people here have externally-hosted avatar images, and having HTTP images in an HTTPS page tends to result in "mixed content" security warnings. Of course, it also seems to require HTTP URLs for avatars, so that doesn't really help things much...
in a similar vein: is there any chance of updating the forums to https? http is rather antiquated at this point - my browser complains every time i open the site, lol.
Post by: Schmaven on December 03, 2021, 09:52:12 pm
I think part of the reason it doesn't use SSL is because most people here have externally-hosted avatar images, and having HTTP images in an HTTPS page tends to result in "mixed content" security warnings. Of course, it also seems to require HTTP URLs for avatars, so that doesn't really help things much...
in a similar vein: is there any chance of updating the forums to https? http is rather antiquated at this point - my browser complains every time i open the site, lol.
Is there some major risk we're all subject to by this being an HTTP URL instead of an HTTPS URL? I assume it would just be our Bay12 passwords at stake if anything.
Post by: Silverwing235 on December 04, 2021, 03:21:42 pm
The purple miasma certainly gets the point across - don't go here, it's NASTY! But... I'm wondering if you might consider making it transparent? I never thought it was right that we can't even see what's underneath the stench cloud. Then again, it does add a little bit of !FUN! by way of potential surprises.
...Yeah, wrong thread/forum? I think you're looking for here? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173473.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173473.0))
Post by: eerr on December 04, 2021, 05:47:37 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on December 04, 2021, 06:24:12 pm
Post by: delphonso on December 04, 2021, 07:03:11 pm
Post by: voliol on December 05, 2021, 04:44:12 am
Post by: Buttery_Mess on December 09, 2021, 03:51:55 am
The coming week(s) it should also become more apparent whether pre-Premium saves will be transferable to the new versions. That is: Having worked on the save/mod restructuring, does it seem like the Premium release (and corresponding Classic release) will be compatible with old saves? If it comes down to writing some tool that transforms old saves/raws into new ones, has this already been done, is it something you might revisit later, or do you expect the community to figure it out (if possible)?
There are a number of structural changes to the game that makes that extremely unlikely- of the top of my head, at least, the way that labours will be changed to other skills as well as a change to the way stone working workshops work mean that the saves won't be compatible.
Post by: LordBaal on December 09, 2021, 05:07:33 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 09, 2021, 06:11:39 am
Not to be rude or anything. Unless its a extremely low hagging fruit, Toady should not concern with save game retro compatibility for the new version.
I do think there are people out there who play DF on a sparse schedule so that they jump versions with the same fortress for the experience of the update mechanics/bugfixes where possible, so not having access to their raws would mean they have to start over or effectively stall on upgrading versions perhaps regarding the anxiety of a new embark/not being a confident modder and got it prepackaged, and losing some storied history with those dwarves.
It'd be nice if there was a save converter (built-in?) that overrided the raws when transferring from classic to steam as it would also suit Toady's needs for checking saves for bugs (which would possibly be even more difficult, given modders really flex the Raws, being able to tell the game is totally unedited and certified vanilla by just looking at it is a impossible task)
And seperately, a question.
With whatever progress or inclination towards tutorialization you're doing for the steam release, do you think your work there will influence the hastening or later-groundwork implementation of the scenario arc?
Post by: BlueManedHawk on December 11, 2021, 10:35:49 pm
- What's with the weird hardcoded materials like amber, pearl, coral, filth, and the unknown substance?
- What does Dwarf Fortress's commitment to realism mean for, uh, sex-related stuff?
- Once the Myth and Magic update is done, do you think y'all'll focus on smaller things (e.g. fixing bugs, making tweaks, optimizing things, etc.) as the community stays tided over by the update for a while?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 12, 2021, 04:30:34 am
I have a few questions:Commitment? You mean like realistic Hungry Heads, humans who sleep once a month and visitors who don't eat?
- What does Dwarf Fortress's commitment to realism mean for, uh, sex-related stuff?
And where do you think Dwarven babies come from anyhow?
Dwarves fall in love, get married, take on lovers, have bastards, plot against one another due to jealousy. Not sure we need much more. Pop up message every time an on-map creature copulates would be beyond annoying.
Post by: clinodev on December 12, 2021, 05:11:18 am
- What does Dwarf Fortress's commitment to realism mean for, uh, sex-related stuff?
Sort of vaguely connected to this, it was pointed out to me tonight in a Twitch stream that the previous dwarven incest taboo has apparently been broken for years at least in Legends. This might be a thing to sort out for Premium.
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 12, 2021, 05:21:27 am
However, as far as I understand, there's long been an interest among Adventure Mode players to form relations and have families. I can also imagine that some may want to engage in "conquests".
And now a question for Toady:
Have you considered making the graphical side of the Premium/Classic division be purely a tile set one, i.e. have the same UI in both versions/modes and just have the tiles used for the game being different? As far as I can see it would mean less work to make a single UI and less work to maintain a single one.
However, it might give a weird impression to have a "normal" UI paired with character based tiles in the game (and, presumably, the tiles in the UI representing in-game things). There may also be contractual issues making the UI elements unavailable for use in the Classic version.
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 12, 2021, 05:33:51 am
Have you considered making the graphical side of the Premium/Classic division be purely a tile set one, i.e. have the same UI in both versions/modes and just have the tiles used for the game being different? As far as I can see it would mean less work to make a single UI and less work to maintain a single one.
However, it might give a weird impression to have a "normal" UI paired with character based tiles in the game (and, presumably, the tiles in the UI representing in-game things). There may also be contractual issues making the UI elements unavailable for use in the Classic version.
I'm pretty sure this is already the plan?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 12, 2021, 09:34:57 am
Well, I agree the Fortress Mode level is reasonable.Adventurer mode cuts away during boring interludes that the player doesn't need to see (fast travel, chopping down trees, building houses). Sex can very easily be covered in the same way.
However, as far as I understand, there's long been an interest among Adventure Mode players to form relations and have families. I can also imagine that some may want to engage in "conquests".
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 13, 2021, 04:06:26 am
According to my understanding of what Toady has said that is NOT the current plan. Instead, a "character based" UI is intended to be implemented with its own widgets emulating the "graphic" ones, but that this development won't be started until the "graphic" widgets are finalized (or nearly so), in order not to waste time on developing emulations of things that didn't work out.
@Shonai_Dweller:
Yes, I agree the physical sex act can reasonably be handled in that way, but not the path to it. At the absolute minimum for there to be any such activity (in Adventure Mode), there has to be some dialog where interest in the activity is expressed and an agreement is reached (which typically is a longer process than a direct question/direct answer in the real world, as far as I understand). Rape doesn't have to involve any dialog, but it's unlikely that would be included (and I see no reason why it should be, anyway), and even then there would have to be an order to (try to) commit the crime.
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 13, 2021, 05:16:01 am
@Mr_Crabman:
According to my understanding of what Toady has said that is NOT the current plan. Instead, a "character based" UI is intended to be implemented with its own widgets emulating the "graphic" ones, but that this development won't be started until the "graphic" widgets are finalized (or nearly so), in order not to waste time on developing emulations of things that didn't work out.
Oh, I misunderstood your question then; I thought you were asking whether the UI would be the same layout and programmed the same, but using "character-based" graphical tiles instead (as opposed to the classic UI we have now staying).
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 13, 2021, 10:16:11 am
@Shonai_Dweller:
Yes, I agree the physical sex act can reasonably be handled in that way, but not the path to it. At the absolute minimum for there to be any such activity (in Adventure Mode), there has to be some dialog where interest in the activity is expressed and an agreement is reached (which typically is a longer process than a direct question/direct answer in the real world, as far as I understand). Rape doesn't have to involve any dialog, but it's unlikely that would be included (and I see no reason why it should be, anyway), and even then there would have to be an order to (try to) commit the crime.
Another thing to add is that male and female are too oversimplistically represented in terms of male and female luer taper locks (to use a metaphor), if you add a intermediary creature as a marriageable partner, is a nice storybook kind of romance maybe the likes of a attractive mermaid/man as in IRL folklore, but anything the player could add with a uncontrolled MALE/FEMALE can seriously throw a spanner into the works when you have inanimate sponges giving birth to dwarves (when not on highfantasy mythgen i guess) If you dont count subspecies tokenization, for ensuring a adequate fit for your leur-lock. Not even going into the arguement in whether a Human and a Gorlak might have a humpty-dumpty skeletoned baby in genetics as a body-setting nightmare unless its ofc all pre-creature defined.
I definitely think over-activity or abuse will be curtailed if its not just turned off in the game configurations by default, its a liability if you leave it in a state that makes it hard to play in countries that closely observe content. I assume DF has to actually pass a review by the age ratings committee now its on steam with notice if something changes, unless there's a "expanded interactions" dlc, which some other titles use (Most prominent to mind is Total War's blood splatter) to effectively sidestep and keep the ratings accessible.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 13, 2021, 11:43:54 am
The real horror will be the procedurally generated love poetry.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 14, 2021, 06:09:37 pm
You know what? Just make sexual intercourse a dance. You already have the dance mechanic, where parties interested stand in a pattern and pretend to dance. Then commentary could be "you have no idea what you're doing" instead of "you are dancing terribly." And onlookers can tell you "you make my ex look good! Hah!" Just need to invite specific individuals to join you.
Post by: ZM5 on December 15, 2021, 02:55:19 am
The real horror will be the procedurally generated love poetry.I'll one up that. Procedurally generated sex positions. Named after creatures in the world. Granted that might just loop back around to being funny when the game generates something like "the upward dwarf position" or the "the sideways forgotten beast position".
Post by: Mobbstar on December 15, 2021, 03:15:45 am
I may as well ask a thought I had the other day, while thinking about the new style for military patrols: How will notes (as in, tile markers) work with the premium version? Will they be using text symbols, abstract symbols, or actual sprites?
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 16, 2021, 02:32:00 pm
Code: [Select]
[PLANT:MUSHROOM_HELMET_PLUMP]
[NAME:plump helmet][NAME_PLURAL:plump helmets][ADJ:plump helmet]
Every plant needs a structural material so that the game knows how it behaves when it's alive.
Here the material is added to the plant, using a template from the material file.
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STRUCTURAL:STRUCTURAL_PLANT_TEMPLATE]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:2]
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:DRINK_MAT:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:DRINK]
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:SEED_MAT:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:SEED]
Here the material is marked as the structural material (this could be below the edible tags which come next). In general, you can use LOCAL_PLANT_MAT|<token>, PLANT_MAT|<plant>|<token>, CREATURE_MAT|<creature>|<token> or INORGANIC|IRON (though the game might hiccup for a while specifically on plants that aren't structurally plants).
[BASIC_MAT:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:STRUCTURAL]
We also modify it a bit to make the plant edible. Any token material can be used here to modify the material that was created from the template.
[EDIBLE_VERMIN]
[EDIBLE_RAW]
[EDIBLE_COOKED]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:MUSHROOM:MUSHROOM_TEMPLATE]
[EDIBLE_VERMIN]
[EDIBLE_RAW]
[EDIBLE_COOKED]
[PICKED_TILE:6][PICKED_COLOR:5:0:0]
[GROWDUR:300][VALUE:2]
Next we establish an alcohol material in much the same way as the structural material.
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:DRINK:PLANT_ALCOHOL_TEMPLATE]
The material template is just called "alcohol" so we need to give it a proper name.
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:frozen dwarven wine]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:dwarven wine]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling dwarven wine]
We also set a few more numbers to distinguish the alcohol from the template.
[MATERIAL_VALUE:2]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:5:0:0]
[EDIBLE_RAW]
[EDIBLE_COOKED]
[PREFIX:NONE]
[DRINK:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:DRINK]
The seed material and information is established in a similar fashion. Other plants (including trees) add materials in the same way, though trees cannot be used at this time with seeds/thread/drink etc. They just use the TREE tag to obtain a wood material (they also have a structural material for their live form).
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SEED:SEED_TEMPLATE]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:1]
[EDIBLE_VERMIN]
[EDIBLE_COOKED]
[SEED:plump helmet spawn:plump helmet spawn:4:0:1:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:SEED]
[SPRING][SUMMER][AUTUMN][WINTER]
[FREQUENCY:100]
[CLUSTERSIZE:5]
[PREFSTRING:rounded tops]
[WET][DRY]
[BIOME:SUBTERRANEAN_WATER]
[UNDERGROUND_DEPTH:1:3]
[SHRUB_TILE:58]
[DEAD_SHRUB_TILE:58]
[SHRUB_COLOR:5:0:0]
[DEAD_SHRUB_COLOR:0:0:1]
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 17, 2021, 05:28:55 am
I failed to see any world tile border indications in the video. Does that mean you can actually have embarks straddling borders of world tiles?
Regardless, as someone who always enables grids whenever possible in games, I'd suggest the introduction of an option to show world tile and intermediate tile boundaries at least (character mode probably doesn't need a grid at the one tile per tile scale, but I'd still want to know where the world tile boundaries are for the zoomed in mode).
If nothing else, a grid would help answering the inevitable question of players why half of the single biome embark suddenly freezes over while the other half doesn't for a world tile straddling embark (and, conversely, it can be used to deliberately seek out straddling, for various effects).
Post by: BlueManedHawk on December 19, 2021, 05:05:48 pm
- Why are good wetlands blue instead of cyan?
- Is it true that the difference between primordial and circumstantial evil regions is that primordial ones appear as dark red/gray, and circumstantial ones appear as light/dark magenta?
- Are there any plans to have flora or fauna unique to anti-savage regions?
Post by: voliol on December 19, 2021, 06:07:23 pm
- Is it true that the difference between primordial and circumstantial evil regions is that primordial ones appear as dark red/gray, and circumstantial ones appear as light/dark magenta?
I’m not sure what the qualifiers are (if any, they might be random) but magenta evil biomes have been around since long before evil biome spread.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on December 19, 2021, 08:36:13 pm
[M]agenta evil biomes have been around since long before evil biome spread.
Interesting. What about the dark red/gray ones?
Post by: voliol on December 20, 2021, 12:56:46 am
[M]agenta evil biomes have been around since long before evil biome spread.
Interesting. What about the dark red/gray ones?
They have been there since before too (this version of the article is from September 2019 (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Map_legend&oldid=247038), evil biome spread was introduced in 0.47.01, January 2020 (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Release_information/0.47.01)). Since I still can’t tell you the criteria I suppose they could have changed to being based on something new; regardless it is probably faster to try out yourself than waiting for the end of the month.
Post by: Putnam on December 20, 2021, 06:02:26 am
[M]agenta evil biomes have been around since long before evil biome spread.
Interesting. What about the dark red/gray ones?
I'm reasonably sure it's just based on biome.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on December 20, 2021, 06:40:01 pm
They have been there since before too (this version of the article is from September 2019 (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Map_legend&oldid=247038), evil biome spread was introduced in 0.47.01, January 2020 (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Release_information/0.47.01)). Since I still can’t tell you the criteria I suppose they could have changed to being based on something new; regardless it is probably faster to try out yourself than waiting for the end of the month.
I'm reasonably sure it's just based on biome.
Alright then.
Post by: Criperum on December 21, 2021, 07:49:47 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 21, 2021, 10:12:40 am
Currently Demons, boogeymen etc. are bound to evil spheres like darkness, death, horror. And good creatures are biased to Light and Life spheres. Is it possible in the future M&M mechanic to have the opposite? For example light creatures are terrorizing common folks and dark creatures are good and helpful.
It seems likely, especially for light and darkness, since those don't really have any intrinsic moral aspect to them, we just associate dark with evil because [dark = can't see = scary dangerous things], and light banishes that darkness. Darkness could easily be good and helpful, and light could easily be bad (see 90% of all JRPG's, and also Bayonetta).
Some spheres seem like a challenge to make them vary between worlds though; take the spheres "misery" and "torture" for example, how could a being representing those be anything but evil and hostile? Their very association with those spheres implies gaining benefit from/spreading/proliferating misery and pain, which are inherently negative for anyone who experiences them.
It's way easier to twist "good" spheres into being evil though; "happiness" for example, but at the cost of all other values; you could imagine a happiness demon that wants to make everyone into mindless lotus eaters with no concerns about anything that happens around them.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 21, 2021, 01:19:19 pm
Post by: Criperum on December 21, 2021, 06:22:56 pm
How will elevation be shown on the new embark screen? Will it be the same as classic version but changing the whole map?
Post by: Criperum on December 22, 2021, 04:11:55 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 22, 2021, 11:09:13 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 22, 2021, 03:58:47 pm
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 24, 2021, 06:11:15 pm
Quote
Mods store version compatibility information, so saves should be able to update their mods if the authors provide when they release new versions. I've also generally restructured the data and raw folders so that more of the text files are encompassed in the object/mod system.
Do you mean that the mods can store information about compatibility with their own previous versions? Or is "version compatability information" referring to compatibility with different versions of DF?
2. Is there more to come for modding/save changes beyond what's been completed already/covered in this devlog?
EDIT:
3. Oh, speaking of mod version compatibility, assuming it's about save compatibility with previous mod versions, how would a mod author know if their mod is save compatible (trying out their mod updates would probably reveal this, but I have a deeper question kind of)?
As far as I know, currently, lots of changes (particularly adding objects, and basically all ENTITY changes) won't actually work in existing saves (because for instance, new creatures need to be populated at the start of worldgen to actually show up), but won't cause an existing save to break (so someone can update the mod even if they won't get all the benefits), whereas some changes will break existing saves (the only ones I know of are removing objects and changing body parts: https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1271).
So basically, what kind of mod updates other than changing body parts or removing object IDs will break/destabilize a save? (if you expect this answer to change due to more modding/raw changes, you may as well wait until it's finalized to answer this)
Post by: voliol on December 25, 2021, 09:57:47 am
Post by: Eric Blank on December 26, 2021, 05:45:22 pm
Do you yet have a means of handling mod conflicts, for instance if two mods both modify creature_standard.txt? Are you open to suggestions on ways to handle or reduce conflicts? I had a few immediate ideas actually
Post by: Su on December 26, 2021, 09:07:50 pm
Do you yet have a means of handling mod conflicts, for instance if two mods both modify creature_standard.txt? Are you open to suggestions on ways to handle or reduce conflicts? I had a few immediate ideas actually
Quote from: Toady One
When you create a world, you can set a load order from among the mods that are installed on your computer, including the vanilla objects.
one would assume this means that mods can overwrite changes made by another mod earlier in the load order.
we would be very interested to hear your ideas though
Post by: ruiruirui on December 28, 2021, 11:36:09 am
Post by: Urist McSadist on December 29, 2021, 12:21:29 pm
2.Are drawbridges going to get nerfed with the siege improvements? Pretty silly how you can squish a whole army with them right now.
3.Are diseases a planned feature?
4.After the magic update will there be procedural sins?
5.How are necromancer experiments going to look like in the steam version?
6.Will we be able to use the same creation myth for multiple worlds?
Post by: squamous on December 29, 2021, 10:10:11 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 30, 2021, 03:05:14 am
1.Just how customizable are mythologies going to be? Will we be able to make our own from scratch?1. That's the goal (within the limits the mythological mechanics will have, of course).
2.Are drawbridges going to get nerfed with the siege improvements? Pretty silly how you can squish a whole army with them right now.
:
2. Highly unlikely. They'll probably remain unchanged until movable terrain (allowing for "elevators", multi tile traps, etc.) is tackled.
Post by: WraithfulWrath on December 30, 2021, 05:48:09 pm
1.1 If they will interact in the world as you play the game, would there be any variance or nuance as to the level of interaction? Would some Gods alter the weather while others casually delete continents for fun and actively show their presence?
2. In Adventure mode, will the new procedurally generated magic systems require a new complex screen/UI for casting spells? Or will it just be a plain list of spells and a "Press X to Cast!"
Post by: WraithfulWrath on December 30, 2021, 05:50:07 pm
Post by: Su on December 30, 2021, 10:51:18 pm
1.Just how customizable are mythologies going to be? Will we be able to make our own from scratch?1. That's the goal (within the limits the mythological mechanics will have, of course).
2.Are drawbridges going to get nerfed with the siege improvements? Pretty silly how you can squish a whole army with them right now.
:
2. Highly unlikely. They'll probably remain unchanged until movable terrain (allowing for "elevators", multi tile traps, etc.) is tackled.
i imagine this will have much the same answer, but - is there any chance of seige engine projectiles moving to an arc-based trajectory, instead of being "locked" to a single z-level, in the seige improvements? most specifically for the catapult, with the ballistae it's much less obvious that something is funky.
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 31, 2021, 09:50:32 am
Post by: Toady One on January 01, 2022, 06:54:54 pm
Quote from: Su
you've said in the past that you intend to update the bugtracker when you have time - is there any chance of that happening before the commercial release? it is over a decade[!] out of date now, after all.
in a similar vein: is there any chance of updating the forums to https? http is rather antiquated at this point - my browser complains every time i open the site, lol.
Quietust: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8334258#msg8334258
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8334273#msg8334273
Time feels even less available now, but I still wanted to do it before the post-release excitement. We'll see what happens. And yeah, regarding Quietust's comment, I'm not sure it'll help with browser complaints in any case. I'm not actually sure if the forum will demand all avatars be https instead after the change, or if it'll still want http. So all avatars may also vanish as well ha ha.
Quote from: Uthimienure
The purple miasma certainly gets the point across - don't go here, it's NASTY! But... I'm wondering if you might consider making it transparent? I never thought it was right that we can't even see what's underneath the stench cloud. Then again, it does add a little bit of !FUN! by way of potential surprises.
Oh, it's definitely going to be translucent to some degree. We haven't done a lot of the flows (dragonfire, water mist, etc.) yet.
Quote from: eerr
When it is done, will people be able to switch between graphics and ascii? This might be important for community games.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8334452#msg8334452
delphonso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8334464#msg8334464
Yeah, the saves should be compatible between the Premium and Classic versions, and Premium (or Classic people with graphics mods installed) should also be able to switch between them, probably on the fly though I haven't implemented that yet so it's not 100% settled.
Quote from: voliol
The coming week(s) it should also become more apparent whether pre-Premium saves will be transferable to the new versions. That is: Having worked on the save/mod restructuring, does it seem like the Premium release (and corresponding Classic release) will be compatible with old saves? If it comes down to writing some tool that transforms old saves/raws into new ones, has this already been done, is it something you might revisit later, or do you expect the community to figure it out (if possible)?
Buttery_Mess: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8335415#msg8335415
LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8335443#msg8335443
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8335451#msg8335451
It looks like it would be pretty time-consuming at this point. A lot has changed, more than I was expecting when I started. I'm not sure how much time there will be later for this kind of project, but I have the structure of the old saves, so I should be able to be of use to any community project that arises, and maybe we'll be able to get to it.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
With whatever progress or inclination towards tutorialization you're doing for the steam release, do you think your work there will influence the hastening or later-groundwork implementation of the scenario arc?
Some of it might overlap, if there are any concrete goals, though the scenarios in the end mostly have to do with fortress subgroups and the entity rewrite/upgrade, which we're not touching.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
- What's with the weird hardcoded materials like amber, pearl, coral, filth, and the unknown substance?
- What does Dwarf Fortress's commitment to realism mean for, uh, sex-related stuff?
- Once the Myth and Magic update is done, do you think y'all'll focus on smaller things (e.g. fixing bugs, making tweaks, optimizing things, etc.) as the community stays tided over by the update for a while?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336057#msg8336057
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336073#msg8336073
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336076#msg8336076
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336135#msg8336135
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336278#msg8336278
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336333#msg8336333
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336352#msg8336352
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336609#msg8336609
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336704#msg8336704
- We had foreign trade goods, I think, from outside the world map? I'm really having trouble remembering. They had nowhere to live in the raws, since the raws are tied to e.g. geology or reaction products, so they just ended up hard-coded forever. There's no reason at all why they couldn't just be in a file with some special tags as needed, aside from it taking a modest amount of time, the barrier to all things.
- Don't have any particular plans here.
- Myth and Magic being done is pretty far off, so I don't think it'd be productive to speculate about the work flow after that. We try to do some fixing of old issues after major releases, but it never ends up being long enough to really satisfy anybody. On the other hand, before the Myth and Magic release is done, while it is ongoing, we were hoping to really be in the two-branch system, where some small things might be fixed while we continue the work on features, in some different way than we'd been doing to this point.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
Have you considered making the graphical side of the Premium/Classic division be purely a tile set one, i.e. have the same UI in both versions/modes and just have the tiles used for the game being different? As far as I can see it would mean less work to make a single UI and less work to maintain a single one.
However, it might give a weird impression to have a "normal" UI paired with character based tiles in the game (and, presumably, the tiles in the UI representing in-game things). There may also be contractual issues making the UI elements unavailable for use in the Classic version.
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336080#msg8336080
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336278#msg8336278
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8336286#msg8336286
Ah, you mean using the UI portion of the artist-prepared graphics in the Classic version as well? I don't think that's in the cards. So many of the buttons have sprites on them and such it would be jarring, and Classic also has at least a possibility of still living in the terminal/console type grid world, though that'd also be affected by using a few extra sheets as previously discussed. I agree it would save some trouble.
Quote from: Mobbstar
I may as well ask a thought I had the other day, while thinking about the new style for military patrols: How will notes (as in, tile markers) work with the premium version? Will they be using text symbols, abstract symbols, or actual sprites?
We have a few placeholder symbols now, which are 32x32 sprites, but drawn by me, so they are right now "bad abstract symbols". By the end, hopefully they'll be a better range.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
Below is the raws for plump helmets, but what I don't understand is, what is the deal with the MUSHROOM material? It's not used in another token (like the SEED, STRUCTURAL and DRINK materials are). so what's going on with it? This is incidentally, the only place in the raws that MUSHROOM_TEMPLATE is used (not even plump helmet men or dimple cups), making it even more mysterious.
Ha ha, I can't find a code link for it either. I assume the mushrooms the dwarves eat are using the structural material. Looks like it is just an extra material hanging in limbo. I don't know if it was ever used or not.
Quote from: PatrikLundell
I failed to see any world tile border indications in the video. Does that mean you can actually have embarks straddling borders of world tiles?
Regardless, as someone who always enables grids whenever possible in games, I'd suggest the introduction of an option to show world tile and intermediate tile boundaries at least (character mode probably doesn't need a grid at the one tile per tile scale, but I'd still want to know where the world tile boundaries are for the zoomed in mode).
If nothing else, a grid would help answering the inevitable question of players why half of the single biome embark suddenly freezes over while the other half doesn't for a world tile straddling embark (and, conversely, it can be used to deliberately seek out straddling, for various effects).
Yeah, you can embark anywhere now.
Most biome effects don't respect grid boundaries, since there's a lot of bleed across from the fractal corner seeding (though temperature has some straight line effect still I'm assuming), but at least for the placement of the icon on the world map I suppose it would be informative.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
- Why are good wetlands blue instead of cyan?
- Is it true that the difference between primordial and circumstantial evil regions is that primordial ones appear as dark red/gray, and circumstantial ones appear as light/dark magenta?
- Are there any plans to have flora or fauna unique to anti-savage regions?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8337836#msg8337836
BlueManedHawk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8337947#msg8337947
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8338097#msg8338097
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8338161#msg8338161
BlueManedHawk (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8338320#msg8338320
- I don't remember if there was some iteration where it removed an ambiguity with another good biome. If not, then probably because it looks wetter.
- So, in ASCII, for most regions (not oceans apparently), there's a special variable that says whether an evil region is gray-red, or light/dark magenta. It defaults to zero, which is the magenta version, but when the "evilify" region function is called, it is randomized from 0-1. There's also a version of this function used for circumstantially evil areas, and it appears to also set the variable from 0-1. If either of those things aren't working, then the colors would probably all be magenta.
- Anti-savage places are supposed to be places where stuff has been hunted off by civilization (though they also get generated in advance), so it wasn't supposed to have anything special going on. We may see the myth/magic region changes remove this element as it is currently used though, along with good/evil distinctions, replacing it with something that can encompass more properties, including the sorts of things you might be thinking of here.
Quote from: Criperum
Currently Demons, boogeymen etc. are bound to evil spheres like darkness, death, horror. And good creatures are biased to Light and Life spheres. Is it possible in the future M&M mechanic to have the opposite? For example light creatures are terrorizing common folks and dark creatures are good and helpful.
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8338498#msg8338498
I'd expect more variety here, yeah, though as Mr Crabman says, sometimes it can be a stretch for a given sphere to be different than what it seems most likely to be.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
I just got to thinking something: In 0.34.07, mining was changed so that mining out a tile of ordinary stone had a 25% chance of producing a loose stone. At the same time, the yield of the “make rock blocks” reaction was changed to produce four blocks from each stone instead of the one block it had previously produced. Why weren’t other reactions that use ordinary stone (such as reactions for stone furniture or stone crafts) changed to increase their yields?
That was a long time ago, so I'm not sure. Size has never made much sense, though I like one table per stone - crafts are very iffy though. I think the change was just meant to be useful for constructions, though I'm not even sure what state constructions were in back then.
Quote from: Criperum
How will elevation be shown on the new embark screen? Will it be the same as classic version but changing the whole map?
Will the current pathfinding bug be fixed? The one when if you have several digging designations one above another miners run up and down constantly to dig portions of halls instead of just digging one of them and then move to another.
There's a brief flash of it in the video. There's an overlay of symbols you can see, covering the whole map.
I'm not sure which bugs will be fixed at first. We certainly can't get to all of them.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
Are some of the features/capabilities from the likes of community tools such as "Legends Viewer" and "Legends Browser" on the table for the official legends mode for the Steam release?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8338931#msg8338931
There's not a lot of time to do a variety of features, so we may be limited to hyperlinks and tabs.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
1. About what you said in your latest devlog:QuoteMods store version compatibility information, so saves should be able to update their mods if the authors provide when they release new versions. I've also generally restructured the data and raw folders so that more of the text files are encompassed in the object/mod system.
Do you mean that the mods can store information about compatibility with their own previous versions? Or is "version compatability information" referring to compatibility with different versions of DF?
2. Is there more to come for modding/save changes beyond what's been completed already/covered in this devlog?
3. Oh, speaking of mod version compatibility, assuming it's about save compatibility with previous mod versions, how would a mod author know if their mod is save compatible (trying out their mod updates would probably reveal this, but I have a deeper question kind of)?
As far as I know, currently, lots of changes (particularly adding objects, and basically all ENTITY changes) won't actually work in existing saves (because for instance, new creatures need to be populated at the start of worldgen to actually show up), but won't cause an existing save to break (so someone can update the mod even if they won't get all the benefits), whereas some changes will break existing saves (the only ones I know of are removing objects and changing body parts: https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1271).
So basically, what kind of mod updates other than changing body parts or removing object IDs will break/destabilize a save? (if you expect this answer to change due to more modding/raw changes, you may as well wait until it's finalized to answer this)
1. I was referring to their own versions, but they can also reference the versions of other mods, including the vanilla pieces considered as mods.
2. Nothing specifically, but some more could change especially as we cross the Steam Workshop threshold.
3. Same as they do now - I'm not sure what I can do to help aside from the usual release notes. It's an opt-in part of the info file, so they can also just let the old saves try to load, or enforce a new world with every version if they prefer, and the game will try to work it out as best it can, as it does now. I'm sure modders at this point know better than I do which kind of changes are troublesome - I can't think of additional save-breaking examples immediately. The idea was just to let authors indicate that at major version points in their own mods they'd rather have people start a new world than try to keep pulling saves forward if they'd prefer, or to cut down on ongoing issue reports by allowing them to add a cutoff when something comes up.
Quote from: voliol
Considering you're farther along in an adjacent topic, do you know now if Steam Workshop support will be available at the initial release, or whether that's something to fiddle with after?
Last word was that it's quite a bit more complicated to implement than the first impression, but our single-file modding system is simple enough that hopefully we can still get it in initially, or at least give it a shot and see what obstacles come up.
[quote author=Eric Blank
If modifications are done to the vanilla raw/objects folder directly instead of packed into a mod zip file, does the game treat them like theyre vanilla objects, and then additional mods are applied on top of those per the load order?
Do you yet have a means of handling mod conflicts, for instance if two mods both modify creature_standard.txt? Are you open to suggestions on ways to handle or reduce conflicts? I had a few immediate ideas actually
[/quote]
Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8340044#msg8340044
If you alter the base game files directly, the game has no idea this has happened, and treats them as the vanilla objects.
Suggestions threads are always welcome - people have made some regarding mod management already and it's helpful to see what people want here especially since modding is naturally community-oriented.
As Su says, the load order is the new main way of managing conflicts, and also the manual tagging of conflicting mods (which I imagine will mostly just apply to mods in use by a lot of people, since it's a manual process.) It seems difficult to try and tackle any meaningful conflict detection in code. People will just need to be mindful of the mods they are installing, but I'm open to ideas people have, though I won't be able to act on a lot of them initially.
Quote
Quote from: Urist McSadist1.Just how customizable are mythologies going to be? Will we be able to make our own from scratch?
2.Are drawbridges going to get nerfed with the siege improvements? Pretty silly how you can squish a whole army with them right now.
3.Are diseases a planned feature?
4.After the magic update will there be procedural sins?
5.How are necromancer experiments going to look like in the steam version?
6.Will we be able to use the same creation myth for multiple worlds?Quote from: Sui imagine this will have much the same answer, but - is there any chance of seige engine projectiles moving to an arc-based trajectory, instead of being "locked" to a single z-level, in the seige improvements? most specifically for the catapult, with the ballistae it's much less obvious that something is funky.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8340907#msg8340907
PatrikLundell has covered 1/2. Some basic drawbridge change may be possible, since we'll be tackling some things that feel like simple exploits.
3. I suppose 'planned' is a strange word at this point, since so many things have a mention here or there. I'm not sure where they fit in to our existing list of releases, but they are important it feels like, for the proper world vibe, and can also be arbitrarily interesting. And sadly relevant.
4. Ha ha, this is quite possible in fact. It's already implied in the reincarnation and final soul disposition texts of the prototype, though "proper conduct" isn't detailed anywhere yet. The first instance it gets defined though, I don't see how it wouldn't be done so procedurally, to some degree. A lot depends on the kind of conduct we can detect though, so in that way, it might remain lackluster for a bit.
5. We haven't revisited it with the new artists yet, so I have no idea what we'll end up with now.
6. This should be theoretically possible. The missing step I think is a kind of partial export feature that's compatible with the editors. We have the xml export now, and no editors - it seems prudent to keep some kind of compatibility in mind there as we add stuff in.
Catapult arcs: Not 100% sure where the siege engines are going! There's always been this feel that they are tied to the whole moving fortress thing, but that would put them after the siege rewrite (and more with the map rewrite), which also feels weird. Fortunately we have arc projectiles ever since we did minecarts, so this isn't so unimaginable, anyway, though one of the issues has always been that our sky just isn't that high, so arcs run into some immediate trouble. I don't remember what happens when projectiles hit the top of the play area currently, if they just vanish or what, but that would need to be dealt with.
Quote from: squamous
Will the post-steam army update include something like armor for war animals?
It's been on the related lists forever. Who knows what we'll end up with though!
Quote from: Wraithful Wrath
1. How active will Gods be during play in either Adventure or Fortress modes (obviously it would depend on the characteristics and motivations of said Gods), will some Gods actually alter the environment, manifest, or intervene in mortal affairs, or will they remain stagnant/deistic after Myth Generation?
1.1 If they will interact in the world as you play the game, would there be any variance or nuance as to the level of interaction? Would some Gods alter the weather while others casually delete continents for fun and actively show their presence?
2. In Adventure mode, will the new procedurally generated magic systems require a new complex screen/UI for casting spells? Or will it just be a plain list of spells and a "Press X to Cast!"
1/1.1. An arbitrary level of activity is the plan, along the lines of a setting. It's mainly an AI question, which we'll have to tackle anyway for sufficiently powerful wizards. Since powers are somewhat tied to themes/areas of influence/etc., I'd expect a variety of involvement levels, whatever we get to for other users of those powers and perhaps a bit more.
2. Really depends on the generated system! Even as the interactions currently stand, there can be a number of inputs, and I expect that sometimes there'll be nested menus or multistage rituals, and in other systems it might be linked to e.g. the move-to-attack type behavior and they can pop off as fast as a single standard input without any other direction needed at all.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
When will we be able to see an example of the `info.txt` file for mods, and examples of the new raws/modding format?
I'm not sure. It's not done yet, but I don't think it'll be a problem posting one once it feels settled.
Post by: clinodev on January 01, 2022, 08:18:08 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 02, 2022, 05:11:54 am
Regarding character "graphics" with the Premium UI: I would guess someone would convert the character tile set into a "custom" tile set within a few days of the Premium release, so character set players would probably be able to chose which UI to use if they've bought the Premium version.
Cross world map boundary embarks: This is a rather nifty update I'd consider worthy of an explicit mentioning rather than hidden away in the background of a video.
Post by: Mr Crabman on January 02, 2022, 06:41:16 am
There's not a lot of time to do a variety of features, so we may be limited to hyperlinks and tabs.
By tabs, are you referring to:
1. Changing the display structure of individual pages, like say, having "relationships this figure has" be a separate tab to "things this figure has done in their life"?
Or:
2. A browser like situation where one can have multiple pages open at once, like having "Urist McExample" in one tab, "Aban DwarfGuy" in another, "The Kingdom of Monarchy" in another, "The Scroll of Lazy Name Examples" in yet another and so on?
EDIT: well, I guess the news yesterday answered this question (unless #1 is also on the table?).
Post by: Salmeuk on January 02, 2022, 02:58:14 pm
Quote
Yeah, you can embark anywhere now.
(in reference to whether you can embark on world tile borders)
This made my day! I can finally place my fortress EXACTLY where I want to! :]
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 03, 2022, 06:39:24 am
Quote from: DF Wiki 'Quest' article
It is currently unknown what actions are required to complete this quest. Attacking, killing, murdering, robbing, harassing, and arguing with the inhabitants does not seem to work, nor does causing insurrections seem to be the solution.
...my question is, Could you please explain how to do this; it's obviously been causing 'trouble' of its own for quite a while, which I for one am profoundly sick of? Thanks very much, and happy lutefisking, I suppose?
Edit: I had also intended to ask, regarding Kobolds' entity ethics, are those generally (frex):
Quote
[ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:NOT_APPLICABLE]
[ETHIC:LYING:NOT_APPLICABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:NOT_APPLICABLE]
finalised, or not? Because if not...well, there is a certain source of highly probable misinformation floating 'round elsewhere, in regards to the Kobolds' (supposedly, lack of) verbal language based on this premise that I feel needs stamping out. Thanks again.
Post by: voliol on January 03, 2022, 06:55:22 am
Post by: dikbutdagrate on January 04, 2022, 12:17:49 am
Upon further investigation, I was surprised to learn that of the very few insects that received sponsored requests during the animal sponsorship drive, that one particular insect, the damselfly, actually features a four winged body plan, however the game only represents damselflies as having two wings.
Are there any plans to update the game files so as to provide additional wings to creatures who naturally possess four? And do you have any plans at this time for issuing a formal televised & tear-filled apology to the user who requested the damselfly and was evidently shortchanged?
For reference:
(https://cdn.britannica.com/s:1500x700,q:85/14/24014-004-D4BAD59E/parts-adult-damselfly.jpg)
Post by: Mr Crabman on January 04, 2022, 04:01:08 am
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 09, 2022, 08:46:10 pm
Post by: DoomsdayWeapon on January 12, 2022, 08:10:08 am
1. The transition between z-levels and ramps still look a bit jarring to me. Are there any plans to add graphics or add shadows to destinguish levels from each other?
2. Looking at the new workshop design I'm curious: Are they single graphics or are they compositions? So - if I changed the graphics of the Lever, would that also change how the Lever on the Mechanics workshop looks?
3. I have to know: Will bars, grates and glass be see-through, so I could see what's below?
Post by: Uthimienure on January 12, 2022, 09:30:14 pm
I hope so!
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 13, 2022, 07:00:00 am
There’s a bit of a discussion going on in one of the threads in the suggestions forum as to the meaning and origin of the phrase “fey mood” in relation to strange moods. Could you provide any elucidation?
You may want to expand on that yourself - I believe it's been mostly asked and answered? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179415.msg8343301#msg8343301 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179415.msg8343301#msg8343301)
Post by: TranquilRiverGiant on January 14, 2022, 06:26:48 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 14, 2022, 07:12:28 pm
There’s a bit of a discussion going on in one of the threads in the suggestions forum as to the meaning and origin of the phrase “fey mood” in relation to strange moods. Could you provide any elucidation?
You may want to expand on that yourself - I believe it's been mostly asked and answered? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179415.msg8343301#msg8343301 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179415.msg8343301#msg8343301)
Yes, but the answer given in that thread might (or might not) be correct. That’s why I’m asking here.
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 15, 2022, 04:21:37 am
I noticed that dragonflies are incorrectly represented in game as having two wings, as opposed to four. This led me to realize that there is no default body plan for creatures that possess four wings. [BODY:4WINGS] isn't included in the vanilla raws.
Upon further investigation, I was surprised to learn that of the very few insects that received sponsored requests during the animal sponsorship drive, that one particular insect, the damselfly, actually features a four winged body plan, however the game only represents damselflies as having two wings.
Are there any plans to update the game files so as to provide the other two wings to creatures who naturally possess four? For reference:(https://cdn.britannica.com/s:1500x700,q:85/14/24014-004-D4BAD59E/parts-adult-damselfly.jpg)
@Mr Crabman
...Sometimes, as seems to be the case here, people dump their questions and run. So, this is just me properly colouring, fixing, and keeping things on track, since dikbutdagrate didn't seem to bother with that at all.
Post by: El_Stono on January 15, 2022, 03:08:59 pm
Also, are you going to rebalance prices? Wax crafts and mead for instance are very labor intensive and pottery uses a lot of resources, but they are pretty much not worth the hassle compared to stone or metal crafts. Prepared meals on the other hand are an incredibly easy way to get rich. I know that more work not does not always equal a higher price in a real market and perfect balancing of that would be a bit game-y, but honey and wax were very sought-after commodities in medieval times.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 16, 2022, 05:10:13 am
Mashing roles (or professions, if you like) into fewer ones takes away control from those who want it, while only saving (some) players a few role selections when organizing dorfs. If you go the main (Premium release) route and let the game try to organize labor it won't matter at all if roles are specific or mashed into a small number of combination roles since you won't touch it anyway.
Prices will probably remain essentially untouched until the economy arc, which lies beyond Myth&Magic, and probably also Starting Scenarios (and not ruling out other arcs beyond those, and definitely not ruling out tangent arcs). Whether economy, which relies on transport, or moving terrain (which provides boats) that has close ties to the economy comes first seems to be something Toady is deliberating over. Anyway, if no decision is made about the order, there's a fair while before a coin toss is necessary to finally settle on that order.
Post by: El_Stono on January 16, 2022, 02:43:17 pm
Gelders are useful to keep the damnable cats under control (although drawbridges work as an alternative, and females can't be gelded), shearers provide you with wool (which you need for moods, even if you won't bother using it for clothing). I personally won't bother with milking because I'm too lazy to write a script that manages it (and buckets are in short supply for a very long time), but it is useful to provide favorite food ingredients, as well as cheese (although you probably don't need as many cheese makers as you get via migrant waves).Let's say a 'Rancher' profession replaces gelder, shearer and milker. The jobs and the way we use them would stay the same, so if no milking job is started, no dwarf will do it. A dwarf with this skill would be more useful, that's my point. I also think that improving the job organisation is not necessary, especially with the new system. But my example doesn't really matter, I'll just rephrase my question:
Mashing roles (or professions, if you like) into fewer ones takes away control from those who want it, while only saving (some) players a few role selections when organizing dorfs. If you go the main (Premium release) route and let the game try to organize labor it won't matter at all if roles are specific or mashed into a small number of combination roles since you won't touch it anyway.
Are there plans to change professions with the steam release?
Post by: TranquilRiverGiant on January 16, 2022, 04:14:57 pm
Post by: bloop_bleep on January 16, 2022, 10:57:04 pm
There’s a bit of a discussion going on in one of the threads in the suggestions forum as to the meaning and origin of the phrase “fey mood” in relation to strange moods. Could you provide any elucidation?
Fey means having a sense of nebulous otherworldliness, like you might ascribe to a person who suddenly dropped everything and started babbling about some legendary thing they're going to create.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 17, 2022, 12:40:22 am
There’s a bit of a discussion going on in one of the threads in the suggestions forum as to the meaning and origin of the phrase “fey mood” in relation to strange moods. Could you provide any elucidation?
Fey means having a sense of nebulous otherworldliness, like you might ascribe to a person who suddenly dropped everything and started babbling about some legendary thing they're going to create.
Ok… that’s three (3) possible meanings now… 🤔
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 17, 2022, 04:00:18 am
Your "rancher" example shows exactly why mashing things together is bad, as it means you cannot control shearing of animals in parallel with milking animals. Sure, you can hope two dorfs assigned the same "profession" would separate the tasks, but it's out of your control, and they may just as well compete over the same task instead, so to get that wool you need for a strange mood you have to disable the milking job, rather than make sure the dorf you assign to this critical task doesn't have any competing "professions" enabled.
If you want a dorf who's got gelding shearing, and milking enabled, go ahead and assign it, but just because you find that to be a convenient combination doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to have different preferences. I, for one, have gelding assigned to everyone so those damned cats are dealt with promptly when needed without having to fuss about who does it, whether they're on leave, military duty, etc. I believe Dwarf Therapist allows you to define your own job combinations for that kind of personalized ease of use, but that's a third party tool.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on January 20, 2022, 09:31:39 pm
Quote
@Mr Crabman
...Sometimes, as seems to be the case here, people dump their questions and run. So, this is just me properly colouring, fixing, and keeping things on track, since dikbutdagrate didn't seem to bother with that at all.
Fixes were made, and I certainly apologize for both the delay and the annoyance. I'm still new to the forums, and I've ben busy getting acquainted with the other boards. Totally unaware that anyone had replied to my query.
Mr. Toad, question: Why is it that the dwarves in world-gen are able to understand how cold an environment is, but not how hot it is? Meaning, they seem to avoid expanding when surrounded by temperatures of absolute zero, but will continue to expand into areas that are DF's equivalent to 2,556,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit. When I embark in those areas, I get notifications that my dwarf's eyeballs are melting out of their heads, and that my wagon has burst into flames. The rest of the dwarf civ doesn't seem to mind though.
edit: Someone replied to this question, and it is no longer relevant.
Last one: If Dwarf Fortress could be played as a competitive real time strategy game, over LAN against a real human opponent, in which you share the same map, but with fog of war, and the goal being to wipe out all of your opponents dwarves, what would be your strategy for winning your first game? How would you maximize the value of your starting deployment material? And how do you stop the mad man who deploys seven dwarves maxed out in mining and dodge, who is making a break for the circus, in an effort to flip a coin on who ends up losing first once the clowns arrive?
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 21, 2022, 02:51:42 am
The life span of offspring of two races can be determined to be that of either parent or somewhere in between. When one parent is immune to aging the "in between" would have to first realize that the offspring is now aging, and so assign some max value for how old an aging creature can become.
It can also be noted that offspring parameters may not lie within the span of that of the parents. As far as I understand, ligers and tigrons are larger than either parent species, for instance.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on January 21, 2022, 03:15:08 am
Hybrids: That has been discussed many times in the past (for races, not castes, although the standard caste case is very simple and exists in DF: offspring of the male caste and the female caste randomly belong to either parent caste, while same caste creatures won't produce offspring. More complex caste societies again produce offspring that belong to one of the castes, not hybrids). It's a matter of descriptions as well as determining how to determining the characteristics of the offspring for creatures with the same basic body plan (flipping a coin for one or the other as a base for a feature, or interpolate, or a random value in between the two; base of the individuals or their races, or outside the range of either, etc?). The more difficult case is called the Centaur problem here, i.e. how to mash together different body plans into a new creature. Both cases are intended to be addressed at some time in the future, and at least the first problem probably has to be solved during the Myth & Magic arc when procedurally generated races are introduced (not exactly the same, but the logic is probably going to be much the same). Whether the Centaur problem itself will be tackled remains to see (it's also possible to generate weird critters using a number of templates).
The life span of offspring of two races can be determined to be that of either parent or somewhere in between. When one parent is immune to aging the "in between" would have to first realize that the offspring is now aging, and so assign some max value for how old an aging creature can become.
It can also be noted that offspring parameters may not lie within the span of that of the parents. As far as I understand, ligers and tigrons are larger than either parent species, for instance.
Thanks Pat! But I thought the Centaur problem was already solved based on what is already featured in game? The example of the centaur seems like an imaginary problem, one which only exists because it seems like it does. You have men with the head of X, hands, whatever, already in game, and a centaur is no different. Distinguishing a severed centaur hoof from a severed centaur torso is really no different than the distinguishing of the severed, limbs, shells, and parts of anything else for any other creature or entity. What does butchering a severed centaur leg turn into? Centaur bones, centaur meat, centaur hair, and centaur hoof. What does an arm or a hand turn into? Centaur meat and centaur bones, albeit with less hair, less meat, and less hoof. A severed centaur leg doesn't produce horse meat, just as its torso doesn't produce people meat. Else we would expect a number of animal-people to produce different types of meat, which derive from entirely different species, depending on which part of their body we dissect.
In regards to body plan inheritance, one could always just go with the mother, as the default, while inheriting some descriptive tag from the father. Doing hardcoded hybrid body plans for the major civs, and just ignoring the beast races entirely, also seems like it would be an okay starting place.
Post by: Mr Crabman on January 21, 2022, 04:52:46 am
Thanks Pat! But I thought the Centaur problem was already solved, based on what is already featured in game? The example of the centaur seems like an imaginary problem, one which only exists because it seems like it does. You have men with the head of X, hands, whatever, already in game, and a centaur is no different.
It isn't solved already; the existing animal men are all manually defined/hardcoded so to speak (that is, Toady had to manually create raw file entries for each and every animal person), not generated procedurally by the game like "centaurs" are supposed to be (centaurs are just an example really; you could create hardcoded centaurs right now, but that would be missing the point).
Distinguishing a severed centaur hoof from a severed centaur torso is really no different than the distinguishing of the severed, limbs, shells, and parts of anything else for any other creature or entity. What does butchering a severed centaur leg turn into? Centaur bones, centaur meat, centaur hair, and centaur hoof. What does an arm or a hand turn into? Centaur meat and centaur bones, albeit with less hair, less meat, and less hoof. A severed centaur leg doesn't produce horse meat, just as its torso doesn't produce people meat. Else we would expect a number of animal-people to produce different types of meat, which derive from entirely different species, depending on which part of their body we dissect.
They aren't all meant to be individual species; things like "a spell that turns your enemies hands into spiders" also are related to the centaur problem from what I recall, as are curses upon individuals that merge them with other species in general. Sometimes you don't want "Urist McCursedguy meat, Urist McCursedguy ears", you want "dwarf meat, donkey ears".
Post by: voliol on January 21, 2022, 06:13:32 am
Post by: MrWiggles on January 21, 2022, 07:36:02 am
One was awkward. This made them feel bad.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on January 21, 2022, 07:34:33 pm
If I may, I'm redirecting this discussion of the centaur problem to its most recent suggestion thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175335.0). It brings up some answers to the points brought up here, but I'm sure there is still room to improve on the topic over there.
No worries Voliol, the man of crab has spoken and I now grasp the error in my perception of the problem (id est in having a semblance of a clue what in the circus people are talking about.) No further elucidation is needed. This community is the pinnacle of helpful.
Post by: Mr Crabman on January 22, 2022, 03:25:20 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 22, 2022, 09:42:47 pm
Will it be possible to customize the text colors used in various places, and how would this be done? The new cyan text (as seen for example, in the recent new legends mode menu, used for entities/civs) is okay to read in of itself, but I find it really hard to distinguish it from the normal white text around it.
See here (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Color_scheme).
Post by: UselessMcMiner on January 22, 2022, 11:08:30 pm
Post by: Ziusudra on January 23, 2022, 01:35:08 am
Why are wars fought over some issues more than others? For example devouring of bodies, tree or animal killing, and trophies. I've been testing warfare for a while and it seems like certain ethics are more likely to trigger wars than others. The main thing that seems odd to me is slavery, which Im guessing wars arent fought over so that dwarves and humans are not constantly at war. Will this be in place forever or will it be changed eventually?There's this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=22151.msg240207#msg240207), the questions from that being, is it still accurate, and why just those ethics?
Post by: Mr Crabman on January 23, 2022, 09:05:48 am
2. Can you move the cursor/camera around the world during worldgen now? It would be nice to see during worldgen what places there are other than The Mischievous Hill in The Land of Funerals, and to have info about them:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
3. Do the responsiveness changes or history readouts slow down worldgen any significant amount? I wonder if perhaps there is some threading going on here, since in principle it would be a lot easier to put UI (or "legends browsing") on a different thread to worldgen, than it would be to do the usual threading suggestions (which would involve huge rewrites), and it would come with noteworthy other potential benefits (like genning multiple worlds at a time) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178491.msg8276433).
4. How much is left now to be done before release? Here is a list of things that I've heard need doing, do correct me if some of this is mistaken, or add on anything noteworthy I've missed:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
5. I recall it being said that other OS compatibility would be investigated after the worldgen/embarking was done, around the time when modding and legends, adventure, arena and such stuff were looked at; since we're in that midst now, is there any news on the Linux support front?
6. With the new modding system, is there (or will there be) a way to have "settings/options" for mods in the mod loading menu? Currently it's possible to offer different versions of a mod, or to make a mod modular; just distribute a zip file on DFFD with multiple folders (or just files) inside it and tell people which folders or files to copy into the raws depending on the content they want.
But on Steam, the workshop only allows one "version" of each mod to be hosted per mod, so there wouldn't really be a practical way to make mods have parts that can be enabled or disabled (or to have different "versions" of the same objects), because uploading alternate mods to the workshop would get ugly in a hurry (polluting the workshop with many nearly identical mods). That is, unless it's possible for modders to define some options viewable ingame (like labeled checkboxes) that can enable and disable certain objects or groups of objects, or overwrite certain objects with alternative versions (or even enable/disable certain sections/raw tokens in some objects, so as to reduce duplication).
7. Somewhat related to the last question, one thing that seems like it would be useful is for mods adding new content (eg, new creatures), to be able to "support" multiple different tilesets (at least, the big/popular ones that many people would want) rather than just having only one set of sprites. Would there be some way of supporting this other than the somewhat clumsy solution of just posting supplementary mini graphics packs to the workshop? The "options" mentioned in question 6 wouldn't really be suited to this because for save compatibility reasons, options could probably only be set when first creating a world, whereas graphics should be changeable during gameplay.
8. How are mods differentiated from each other for the purposes of listing dependencies? One could imagine 2 mods happening to use the same name, which could lead to confusion when a player is deciding which mod they need to get (especially if they are mutually incompatible).
9. About mod loading order and overwriting; can raw txt files in different mods share the same name and header text (like `creature_ocean`), or would one overwrite the other? Obviously actual object ID's can't be shared and one has to override the other, but filenames/headers seem like they should be able to only have meaning in the context of that individual mod.
10. Have any decisions been made on what's going to happen to the "classic" fort mode music track now that it doesn't fit alongside the new ones? Is there some place for it in the Steam version even if it's not fort (or adventure) mode?
See here (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Color_scheme).
Would that just affect the text though (in the Premium version that is), or would it spill over into other places?
Post by: Inarius on January 24, 2022, 05:08:48 am
steps.
I was wondering, though
You say "The most important event of the last 1000", but how does the world generator "knows" what is "most important" ?
Post by: Eric Blank on January 27, 2022, 02:28:21 pm
As many tabs as I want it is said, but how many tabs until the programme bites it? :D
This is actually a very important question that I'm interested in and wanted to draw your attention to. Maybe you (Toady) should artificially cap it at the point where it becomes unstable, if only to intercept "my game crashed because I opened 5000 tabs in legends mode" complaints.
Post by: voliol on January 28, 2022, 07:59:21 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on January 30, 2022, 06:46:12 am
What image and audio file types will be accepted by DF for the likes of graphics or sound packs? Or has it not changed?
Can individual mods now group files into subfolders within the mod (either for mod option modularity purposes if they apply, or for simple organizational purposes with no functional meaning), or do they still have to be kept all in one folder with no subfolders (ie a "flat" structure of sorts)?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 30, 2022, 02:53:27 pm
Will it be possible for the scrollwheel now do actual scrolling in menus? One thing I noticed while trying to browse legends currently is that you have to use the arrow keys to very slowly scroll up and down, because using the scrollwheel zooms in and out instead, which maybe works for fortress mode, but is pretty uncomfortable when trying to scroll through a long menu (which is what a lot of legends mode screens are).
What image and audio file types will be accepted by DF for the likes of graphics or sound packs? Or has it not changed?
Would it be possible to support tilt-wheels for scrolling side to side? Also, would it be possible to support touchscreen gestures (such as pinch-zoom and two finger scrolling) on systems that have them?
Finally, I’ve noticed that it’s impossible to show the entirety of an embark even at the largest zoom level because part of the embark gets cut off by the black regions on the sides. Would it be possible to change this to allow the full embark to be seen (I’d kind of like to get a screenshot of my full embark, but it’s currently impossible)?
Post by: Mr Crabman on January 30, 2022, 06:03:27 pm
Finally, I’ve noticed that it’s impossible to show the entirety of an embark even at the largest zoom level because part of the embark gets cut off by the black regions on the sides. Would it be possible to change this to allow the full embark to be seen (I’d kind of like to get a screenshot of my full embark, but it’s currently impossible)?
Yeah, I've had this issue as well (the embark is just isolated to the bottom left corner when you zoom out enough, cut off on the top and right sides). Pretty sure this is a bug however, not something that was intentionally programmed (would be interested to hear if it's been fixed in the course of making other changes though).
Post by: Toady One on February 01, 2022, 08:43:12 pm
Quote from: Mr Crabman
By tabs, are you referring to:
1. Changing the display structure of individual pages, like say, having "relationships this figure has" be a separate tab to "things this figure has done in their life"?
Or:
2. A browser like situation where one can have multiple pages open at once, like having "Urist McExample" in one tab, "Aban DwarfGuy" in another, "The Kingdom of Monarchy" in another, "The Scroll of Lazy Name Examples" in yet another and so on?
Yeah, this is just a browser type situation. I haven't reorganized individual pages.
Quote from: Silverwing235
'Cause trouble' quests in adventure mode rear their heads again. Given the decent summary of them we have here, my question is:QuoteIt is currently unknown what actions are required to complete this quest. Attacking, killing, murdering, robbing, harassing, and arguing with the inhabitants does not seem to work, nor does causing insurrections seem to be the solution.
...my question is, Could you please explain how to do this; it's obviously been causing 'trouble' of its own for quite a while, which I for one am profoundly sick of? Thanks very much, and happy lutefisking, I suppose?
Edit: I had also intended to ask, regarding Kobolds' entity ethics, are those generally (frex):Quote[ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:NOT_APPLICABLE]
[ETHIC:LYING:NOT_APPLICABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:NOT_APPLICABLE]
finalised, or not? Because if not...well, there is a certain source of highly probable misinformation floating 'round elsewhere, in regards to the Kobolds' (supposedly, lack of) verbal language based on this premise that I feel needs stamping out. Thanks again.
Theoretically, it takes a conflict incident, in which you participate, where one of the sides gets flagged with the target entity and the side that you are in is not that entity, but has an entity (presumably whatever hearth you are fighting for.) It's sort of a convoluted check through your head for rumors and witness events and etc., so I'm not surprised that it's breaking down, though I'm not sure where. Will definitely need both a tech and exposition pass at some point.
The kobold language is based on the language we speak to our cats with, and they understand it about as well. So we don't intend them to be able to do complicated things verbally, though the boundaries are iffy when it comes to trickery vs. lying etc.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Are there any plans to update the game files so as to provide additional wings to creatures who naturally possess four? And do you have any plans at this time for issuing a formal televised & tear-filled apology to the user who requested the damselfly and was evidently shortchanged?
No specific plans though it would be good if the files were correct. These aren't the only problems as I recollect, and generally we didn't have time to do much with any but the top sponsored animals (mainly bees.)
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
There’s a bit of a discussion going on in one of the threads in the suggestions forum as to the meaning and origin of the phrase “fey mood” in relation to strange moods. Could you provide any elucidation?
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8344188#msg8344188
A_Curious_Cat (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8344536#msg8344536
bloop_bleep: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8344968#msg8344968
A_Curious_Cat (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8344978#msg8344978
I don't have anything new to add; I think the Tolkien sourcing is what I was working from, though I remember it from the Silmarillion more than the Lord of the Rings, I vaguely vaguely recall, though I don't remember if it was Fingolfin running off to Morgoth or something with Feanor earlier.
Quote from: DoomsdayWeapon
1. The transition between z-levels and ramps still look a bit jarring to me. Are there any plans to add graphics or add shadows to destinguish levels from each other?
2. Looking at the new workshop design I'm curious: Are they single graphics or are they compositions? So - if I changed the graphics of the Lever, would that also change how the Lever on the Mechanics workshop looks?
3. I have to know: Will bars, grates and glass be see-through, so I could see what's below?
1. There are wall shadows and ramp shading, though in a jumble of ramps and open spaces at various levels it can still be confusing. I'm not sure what more we'll be able to do graphical, since we can't allow free rotation which is how that confusion is normally tackled. We were pondering just having a more abstract overlay to cut through the confusion that could be turned on.
2. They are separate images.
3. Theoretically this can be done, though it might be too expensive to query the floor material on the display pass. For bars and grates it is easier (you can see through open hatches currently.)
Quote from: Uthimienure
In the steam & classic versions, when a tile contains multiple creatures/items, will they still cycle (or flash) to show their presence as they currently do?
I hope so!
I believe it works the same way (that is, it flips between creatures, not items), though we haven't drawn up a replacement for the /-\|/- effect yet.
Quote from: TranquilRiverGiant
Currently in adventure mode the game performance struggles in human cities: the many characters in the area cause the game to lag, making it hard to play. However there are a lot of cool features in the game located in cities: taverns, catacombs, dungeons. Will the in-city performance be optimized by the steam release?
We haven't started converting adventure mode yet, and I think it's premature to say exactly how much we'll be able to manage before it crosses the point of being good enough for a release. It is a weird creature in a lot of ways, and a lot of things are broken about it (see cause trouble discussion above, for instance.)
Quote from: El_Stono
Are there plans to merge or change the useless and rarely used professions (milker, shearer, etc.)? I know that you said changing them would destroy saves, but I wanted to know if a change like that is likely if old saves won't work in the steam version anyway because of some other changes in the code.
Also, are you going to rebalance prices? Wax crafts and mead for instance are very labor intensive and pottery uses a lot of resources, but they are pretty much not worth the hassle compared to stone or metal crafts. Prepared meals on the other hand are an incredibly easy way to get rich. I know that more work not does not always equal a higher price in a real market and perfect balancing of that would be a bit game-y, but honey and wax were very sought-after commodities in medieval times.
...
Let's say a 'Rancher' profession replaces gelder, shearer and milker. The jobs and the way we use them would stay the same, so if no milking job is started, no dwarf will do it. A dwarf with this skill would be more useful, that's my point. I also think that improving the job organisation is not necessary, especially with the new system. But my example doesn't really matter, I'll just rephrase my question:
Are there plans to change professions with the steam release?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8344812#msg8344812
El_Stono (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8344869#msg8344869
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8345016#msg8345016
We don't have any plans to change the professions, aside from what we did to reorganize the stone ones a bit. You can set up a rancher work detail using the new system with those settings if you like, and then assign dwarves to it. I'm not sure if we need to break it up further, to offer more control, on a per-job basis, though it gets a bit weird with the names and skills and such. I imagine we'll continue to see some updates (as with the stone) over time, but probably not another one before the release.
Quote from: TranquilRiverGiant
Just curious as to why the "Cull unimportant historical figures" option in world gen is so CPU intensive. Is it doing a simple check to see whether dead historical figures have led important lives, and if not flagging them for removal, or is does it attempt to retcon their lives to be a bit more important?
Yeah, it's just a simple check, but events and figures can be very numerous. I'm not sure if there are problems with it on top of that.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Mr. Toad, question: Why is it that the dwarves in world-gen are able to understand how cold an environment is, but not how hot it is? Meaning, they seem to avoid expanding when surrounded by temperatures of absolute zero, but will continue to expand into areas that are DF's equivalent to 2,556,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit. When I embark in those areas, I get notifications that my dwarf's eyeballs are melting out of their heads, and that my wagon has burst into flames. The rest of the dwarf civ doesn't seem to mind though.
Last one: If Dwarf Fortress could be played as a competitive real time strategy game, over LAN against a real human opponent, in which you share the same map, but with fog of war, and the goal being to wipe out all of your opponents dwarves, what would be your strategy for winning your first game? How would you maximize the value of your starting deployment material? And how do you stop the mad man who deploys seven dwarves maxed out in mining and dodge, who is making a break for the circus, in an effort to flip a coin on who ends up losing first once the clowns arrive?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8345849#msg8345849
dikbutdagrate (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8345850#msg8345850
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8345868#msg8345868
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8345884#msg8345884
dikbutdagrate (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8346059#msg8346059
Was this modding the temperatures to extremes? Perhaps the cold check matches up with the biome stuff, so it happens to work out? But they considered ultra-high temperatures to be "tropical" still?
Competitive RTS: Ha ha ha, I'm not good at this game! It seems like it would be tricky to find and stop the enemy dwarves in time with fog of war active on a map of any size, though they would be closest to the demons at first which seems like trouble for them at least, especially since maxed dodge for an embark dwarf isn't all that high.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
Will it be possible to customize the text colors used in various places, and how would this be done? The new cyan text (as seen for example, in the recent new legends mode menu, used for entities/civs) is okay to read in of itself, but I find it really hard to distinguish it from the normal white text around it.
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8346339#msg8346339
Mr Crabman (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8346473#msg8346473
Regarding your question in the replies, in the premium version, I thiiiink changing colors.txt is pretty much restricted to text now? All of the border elements etc. are all in the graphical files, as well as cursors and other interface bits that would otherwise be subject to the 16 colors. So you'll most likely be fine adjusting the colors there.
Quote from: UselessMcMiner
Why are wars fought over some issues more than others? For example devouring of bodies, tree or animal killing, and trophies. I've been testing warfare for a while and it seems like certain ethics are more likely to trigger wars than others. The main thing that seems odd to me is slavery, which Im guessing wars arent fought over so that dwarves and humans are not constantly at war. Will this be in place forever or will it be changed eventually? Also will noble succession ever be "cleaned up" for the intrigue release? With actual pretenders to the throne and such?
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8346409#msg8346409
Huh, yeah, it's only doing half of them, which makes sense enough for stuff like assault or vandalism (though even those would be enough to start a war in the right situation), but it's pretty odd that slavery isn't on the list, given history. I don't recall human/dwarf fights being the reason it's excluded, though a decade out or whatever it's probably hard to figure out.
I'm not sure when I'll get to fix the noble claims - it would be nice to fix it for the intrigue release, but that release is crowded so it's not possible to commit to it.
Quote
Quote from: Mr Crabman1. A recent devlog says the most important event of the last 1000 is shown every second in the "worldgen legend chronicles"; what determines the "importance" of an event?
2. Can you move the cursor/camera around the world during worldgen now? It would be nice to see during worldgen what places there are other than The Mischievous Hill in The Land of Funerals, and to have info about them.
3. Do the responsiveness changes or history readouts slow down worldgen any significant amount? I wonder if perhaps there is some threading going on here, since in principle it would be a lot easier to put UI (or "legends browsing") on a different thread to worldgen, than it would be to do the usual threading suggestions (which would involve huge rewrites), and it would come with noteworthy other potential benefits (like genning multiple worlds at a time).
4. How much is left now to be done before release?
5. I recall it being said that other OS compatibility would be investigated after the worldgen/embarking was done, around the time when modding and legends, adventure, arena and such stuff were looked at; since we're in that midst now, is there any news on the Linux support front?
6. With the new modding system, is there (or will there be) a way to have "settings/options" for mods in the mod loading menu? Currently it's possible to offer different versions of a mod, or to make a mod modular; just distribute a zip file on DFFD with multiple folders (or just files) inside it and tell people which folders or files to copy into the raws depending on the content they want.
But on Steam, the workshop only allows one "version" of each mod to be hosted per mod, so there wouldn't really be a practical way to make mods have parts that can be enabled or disabled (or to have different "versions" of the same objects), because uploading alternate mods to the workshop would get ugly in a hurry (polluting the workshop with many nearly identical mods). That is, unless it's possible for modders to define some options viewable ingame (like labeled checkboxes) that can enable and disable certain objects or groups of objects, or overwrite certain objects with alternative versions (or even enable/disable certain sections/raw tokens in some objects, so as to reduce duplication).
(toad: moved this up from your other question block): Can individual mods now group files into subfolders within the mod (either for mod option modularity purposes if they apply, or for simple organizational purposes with no functional meaning), or do they still have to be kept all in one folder with no subfolders (ie a "flat" structure of sorts)?
7. Somewhat related to the last question, one thing that seems like it would be useful is for mods adding new content (eg, new creatures), to be able to "support" multiple different tilesets (at least, the big/popular ones that many people would want) rather than just having only one set of sprites. Would there be some way of supporting this other than the somewhat clumsy solution of just posting supplementary mini graphics packs to the workshop? The "options" mentioned in question 6 wouldn't really be suited to this because for save compatibility reasons, options could probably only be set when first creating a world, whereas graphics should be changeable during gameplay.
8. How are mods differentiated from each other for the purposes of listing dependencies? One could imagine 2 mods happening to use the same name, which could lead to confusion when a player is deciding which mod they need to get (especially if they are mutually incompatible).
9. About mod loading order and overwriting; can raw txt files in different mods share the same name and header text (like `creature_ocean`), or would one overwrite the other? Obviously actual object ID's can't be shared and one has to override the other, but filenames/headers seem like they should be able to only have meaning in the context of that individual mod.
10. Have any decisions been made on what's going to happen to the "classic" fort mode music track now that it doesn't fit alongside the new ones? Is there some place for it in the Steam version even if it's not fort (or adventure) mode?Quote from: InariusYou say "The most important event of the last 1000", but how does the world generator "knows" what is "most important" ?Quote from: voliolWhat is the not-so-graphical work being done the coming weeks? More Legends mode? Packaging for Steam/itch.io? Classic? Secret?
1. There was the available importance function sitting around, so I just used that - it's the one that decides what shows up in the event lists for each Age in the currently-released version's Legends mode. It preferences rulers, megabeasts, things like that, and you can get a feel for it there; there are too many events etc. for me to scour the data and list them easily here.
2. Yeah. You could always do that when paused or at the end, but now there's hover info too.
3. Nope, doesn't change the speed noticeably. It isn't multithreaded but there are a few timers so that it doesn't, for instance, render too often (as it does in some versions of the rivers countdown, where it can move slower than it needs to.) No surprising new feature gains either.
4/5. Gonna hold off on these (and voliol's question) since part of what we're doing is cooking up a public roadmap to take us to the finish line. I'm not sure when it'll be posted, might be some weeks, but it's one of things we're working on with Kitfox right now.
6. We don't have this currently, but doing something like it would be possible. I know Factorio for instance has mod settings you can do at startup and in-game etc. - but we don't have nice scripted files in a widely adopted format, so it's a bit trickier for us to get at things like that (or to do interface mods/API-style mods generally.) The mod subfolder question is similar. Right now they use the graphics/objects split, and work the same way they do in the currently released version within a given mod folder, but it wouldn't be impossible to add additional structure in a way that doesn't break them later if I don't get to it now. But it isn't going to be as powerful as e.g. Lua, nor can I easily switch to e.g. Lua.
7. I'm not sure I've quite understood this one. Like, if we have big popular set B, and default set A. Then somebody makes a new creature, they'd provide pictures of it in both A and B styles, and you can flip between them? This isn't supported right now, but it seems feasible enough - as a startup setting anyway, or on a per-load basis. Switching graphics sets would have to process a lot of textures and I don't see it as something that would be happening on the fly exactly (the classic version is a special case since it uses a very limited set of characters which can remain in memory.) It is at least the case now that saves don't retain any graphical information, so we shouldn't have compat issues down the line if we do more here (though of course that causes its own problems of needing all of the mods present in compatible versions to load a save.)
8. We use identifiers for dependencies. I'm not sure how to avoid trouble if people use the same identifier, since we don't ourselves control a central hub with links or anything like that - for instance, I don't know how much Workshop helps with that, or enables chains of downloads etc., if the modder provides some kind of workshop id/page, but our own system of dependency tracking has to work independently from Workshop. This makes it less friendly, since we don't have our own mod server. It shouldn't be too long before I finally get a chance to look at Workshop integration and we'll see what more there is to say, and if our own internal system changes to something that can capture both that and elsewise. Integration may mean mods have to have two identifiers for all I know, which'll be fun.
9. Identical filenames should be fine.
10. Haven't decided yet! One of the ideas was legends mode, another was somewhere in the credits. It's way too noisy to put it alongside the professional ones. We'll know more about this when the music is finalized; Kitfox is still working on some stuff there.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Quote from: scriverAs many tabs as I want it is said, but how many tabs until the programme bites it?
This is actually a very important question that I'm interested in and wanted to draw your attention to. Maybe you (Toady) should artificially cap it at the point where it becomes unstable, if only to intercept "my game crashed because I opened 5000 tabs in legends mode" complaints.
It doesn't really choke and die as might happen to a modern browser if you go to several sites with lots of bells and whistles. The tabs are very light weight - just the text and some very small link info. That can be a lot of text, so I imagine if you open many thousands of lengthy entries you'd start to have issues, but you'll have more trouble navigating that many tabs generally I think.
Quote
Quote from: Mr CrabmanWill it be possible for the scrollwheel now do actual scrolling in menus? One thing I noticed while trying to browse legends currently is that you have to use the arrow keys to very slowly scroll up and down, because using the scrollwheel zooms in and out instead, which maybe works for fortress mode, but is pretty uncomfortable when trying to scroll through a long menu (which is what a lot of legends mode screens are).
What image and audio file types will be accepted by DF for the likes of graphics or sound packs? Or has it not changed?Quote from: A_Curious_CatWould it be possible to support tilt-wheels for scrolling side to side? Also, would it be possible to support touchscreen gestures (such as pinch-zoom and two finger scrolling) on systems that have them?
Finally, I’ve noticed that it’s impossible to show the entirety of an embark even at the largest zoom level because part of the embark gets cut off by the black regions on the sides. Would it be possible to change this to allow the full embark to be seen (I’d kind of like to get a screenshot of my full embark, but it’s currently impossible)?
Mr Crabman (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8348351#msg8348351
Scrollwheel being linked to active scrollbars isn't done yet, though it's on the shorter-term to-do - there's some ambiguity so we'll need to decide how/if the cursor needs to be positioned sometimes (it's also competing with changing z levels, so for all the in-play menus it needs to be more tightly controlled), but it should be pretty simple to make universal in the scrollbar input once we figure it out. Although for a really long legends entry, rather than the scroll wheel, I imagine pulling the scrollbar is faster. All the legends mode entries (which don't fit) have scrollbars.
Audio: This hasn't changed. I imagine FMOD is pretty versatile, so I haven't tried to do anything new or fancy yet, and probably won't start until the music comes in from Kitfox.
Tilt-wheels/touchscreen: I don't have those input methods to test. Theoretically whatever SDL supports can be done.
Embark image: I don't think this'll be possible. In the existing version, there is the image export feature which produces what's effectively a screenshot of a z-slice, which you could then resize in any way you like, though maybe not what you wanted? (though we haven't got that done either)
Post by: Doorkeeper on February 02, 2022, 02:10:26 am
Mr. Toad, question: Why is it that the dwarves in world-gen are able to understand how cold an environment is, but not how hot it is? Meaning, they seem to avoid expanding when surrounded by temperatures of absolute zero, but will continue to expand into areas that are DF's equivalent to 2,556,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit. When I embark in those areas, I get notifications that my dwarf's eyeballs are melting out of their heads, and that my wagon has burst into flames. The rest of the dwarf civ doesn't seem to mind though.
Was this modding the temperatures to extremes? Perhaps the cold check matches up with the biome stuff, so it happens to work out? But they considered ultra-high temperatures to be "tropical" still?
@dikbutdagrate: to throw light on what Toady said: dwarves don't settle freezing regions because they lack SETTLEMENT_BIOME for TUNDRA/GLACIER/ANY_LAND. Temperature doesn't factor at all when entities are placing sites during worldgen. Dwarves and other civs will place sites according to biome and not temp, even if the region's temp is above/below the safe limit for dwarves et al.
correction: fortresses can spawn next to a freezing biome if there's an adjacent mountain. They aren't actually settling in the freezing biome, rather the margin of the mountain biome, but it'll be freezing nonetheless.
Post by: clinodev on February 02, 2022, 05:49:52 am
@Silverwing235:
If you haven't seen this, it's well-worth your time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPRxLNo7XQE
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 02, 2022, 07:02:02 am
Thanks as always for the replies!
@Mr Crabman:
If you haven't seen this, it's well-worth your time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPRxLNo7XQE
I have; it's interesting stuff (I love this sort of creativity leading to things few would think of, like a language without permanent meanings of words), but I'm not sure what I said that prompted this?
2. Yeah. You could always do that when paused or at the end, but now there's hover info too.
But can it now be done unpaused? Sorry for asking, it's just that this sentence feels ambiguous.
6. We don't have this currently, but doing something like it would be possible. I know Factorio for instance has mod settings you can do at startup and in-game etc. - but we don't have nice scripted files in a widely adopted format, so it's a bit trickier for us to get at things like that (or to do interface mods/API-style mods generally.)
Do you think it would be feasible to do this before the first release? Even just being able to enable and disable particular raw files (or multiple raw files) from being loaded/read based on labeled checkboxes (maybe also with a descriptive "this will enable X" blurb written by the mod author) being ticked or not would go a long way, basically offering equivalent power to what we have now, and it would solve the potential problem of the workshop (and DFFD probably) being filled with similar but slightly different versions of mods. Being able to enable or disable specific chunks of raw files (marked by special tokens at the start and end of the "chunk") would be even better, but presumably a bit harder to implement.
7. I'm not sure I've quite understood this one. Like, if we have big popular set B, and default set A. Then somebody makes a new creature, they'd provide pictures of it in both A and B styles, and you can flip between them? This isn't supported right now, but it seems feasible enough - as a startup setting anyway, or on a per-load basis. Switching graphics sets would have to process a lot of textures and I don't see it as something that would be happening on the fly exactly (the classic version is a special case since it uses a very limited set of characters which can remain in memory.) It is at least the case now that saves don't retain any graphical information, so we shouldn't have compat issues down the line if we do more here
Yes, this is precisely what I meant, thank you. As for being swappable during gameplay, it would only need to be swappable as often as the actual graphic sets themselves, so if the graphics are set on load, that's good for the mods too (with the maybe impractical ideal being automatic switching, like if mod C specified "use these graphics when A is active, and these when B is active" without needing the player to manually switch C, D and E to use B graphics).
Embark image: I don't think this'll be possible. In the existing version, there is the image export feature which produces what's effectively a screenshot of a z-slice, which you could then resize in any way you like, though maybe not what you wanted? (though we haven't got that done either)
What's the limit for zooming out, and what's the cause of this limit? I worry if it might prevent larger screens from being able to see bigger sections of the embark (leading to them just having "bigger tile squares" instead, which isn't an ideal use of extra screen space).
8. We use identifiers for dependencies. I'm not sure how to avoid trouble if people use the same identifier, since we don't ourselves control a central hub with links or anything like that - for instance, I don't know how much Workshop helps with that, or enables chains of downloads etc., if the modder provides some kind of workshop id/page, but our own system of dependency tracking has to work independently from Workshop. This makes it less friendly, since we don't have our own mod server. It shouldn't be too long before I finally get a chance to look at Workshop integration and we'll see what more there is to say, and if our own internal system changes to something that can capture both that and elsewise. Integration may mean mods have to have two identifiers for all I know, which'll be fun.
Well, here's one idea to maybe take into consideration for dealing with this (I don't know if maybe the Workshop API will invalidate some of this or not): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179270.msg8349154#msg8349154
9. Identical filenames should be fine.
What about the header at the top of the file (which can be different to the filename in principle, though usually it's the same), or was that implied in your response?
Post by: clinodev on February 02, 2022, 07:40:08 am
Thanks as always for the replies!
@Mr Crabman:
If you haven't seen this, it's well-worth your time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPRxLNo7XQE
I have; it's interesting stuff (I love this sort of creativity leading to things few would think of, like a language without permanent meanings of words), but I'm not sure what I said that prompted this?
Ah, you're right, I meant to point it out to Silverwing235! Edited above.
Post by: voliol on February 02, 2022, 07:52:15 am
Post by: OluapPlayer on February 07, 2022, 08:43:22 am
Are gremlins being trainable intentional, or a case of a pet token you forgot to remove? Given they're the only sapients you can train, and trained sapients are buggy at best, I was wondering whether it was an accident or something you actually intend to expand upon later.
Post by: Olim on February 07, 2022, 10:17:02 am
Whellow Today!
Thank you for Dwarf fortress. In a world of forgettable AAA titles, DF stand out as a brilliant ray of maddening sunshine!
color=limegreen]How much can/has DF be/been multithreaded[/color].
As CPUs grow wider and not fast, it seems like headroom for performance for Single Threaded applications has been reached.
DF seems to have a lot of opportunity for threadedness which has not been taken advantage of but this can be hard to perceive. Often threadable tasks are quick and efficient while the non-threadable tasks may be long and slow so the actions which were threaded are completed quickly and wait while the rest of the software completes.
color=limegreen]Are there other milestones which stand in the way or things which need to be stabilized before threading is safe?[/color]
Seems like a brain of your talent could tackle this but I know all development has a punch list and this might be low on it.
Cheers and thanks, a lot, for all the lost productivity! ;-)
Love,
CoreyXolt
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 07, 2022, 01:35:51 pm
@Olim: It seems you've got trouble with your coloring tags. Previewing might allow you to actually see what it results in (I'd start with the leading square brackets).
Multi threading is something that comes up every few months... Firstly, DF appears to primarily be limited by the disk speed, i.e. data access, not the CPU speed, and, secondly, writing multi threaded code from scratch and ensure you don't screw up thing isn't trivial, and refactoring code that hasn't been designed for it would be a giant task for limited gain (and, in some cases negative, when the multi threading overhead costs more than the parallelism provides).
So, the question essentially boils down to: Should Toady spend the next 5 or so years on reshuffling the code to make it parallel for limited gains (and new bugs) and possible breaking of Toady's patience with doing boring stuff (on the back of all the boring UI stuff), or should he get on with actual development?
The standard argument then is to bring in someone else to do the parallelization, but that brings additional issues into the mix, such as changes to the code that might not be obvious to Toady, someone else getting hold of the code (which has caused issues in the past), and the necessity to act as a manager for that person rather than spending that time on the actual code.
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 07, 2022, 03:02:55 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on February 10, 2022, 09:30:44 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on February 15, 2022, 01:40:38 pm
Post by: clinodev on February 15, 2022, 04:08:07 pm
Have you considered allowing players to designate an entire ore/gem vein from an exposed tile instead of using a selection rectangle with sub-settings? I was recently reminded that the former is not a vanilla function (DFHack), and seems like a good quality of life addition for Steam.
If I'm understanding correctly, it actually is a vanilla feature, it came in some years ago with marker mode and taverns, if I recall correctly, but I talk to people who don't know about it all the time!
From the menu, click d then a, and look near the bottom of the menu. You'll see, as you press a repeatedly, that "a: Designating All" will cycle through several other options, including "a: Automining Ore/Gems" which works very much like DFhack's "digv", you can select a single tile of a vein or cluster and it will designate it to be mined out. The main difference is it doesn't "cheat" and reveal the whole vein at once, but discovers each tile as it becomes visible, then designates it. Much more elegant.
Here's the wiki page: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Designations_menu#Designations_modification
(https://i.imgur.com/YWs9EnP.png)
Post by: Salmeuk on February 15, 2022, 05:39:09 pm
Have you considered allowing players to designate an entire ore/gem vein from an exposed tile instead of using a selection rectangle with sub-settings? I was recently reminded that the former is not a vanilla function (DFHack), and seems like a good quality of life addition for Steam.
If I'm understanding correctly, it actually is a vanilla feature, it came in some years ago with marker mode and taverns, if I recall correctly, but I talk to people who don't know about it all the time!
From the menu, click d then a, and look near the bottom of the menu. You'll see, as you press a repeatedly, that "a: Designating All" will cycle through several other options, including "a: Automining Ore/Gems" which works very much like DFhack's "digv", you can select a single tile of a vein or cluster and it will designate it to be mined out. The main difference is it doesn't "cheat" and reveal the whole vein at once, but discovers each tile as it becomes visible, then designates it. Much more elegant.
Here's the wiki page: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Designations_menu#Designations_modification
(https://i.imgur.com/YWs9EnP.png)
I believe Immortal is actually referring to the ability to instantly designate the entire vein. It is a form of soft cheating in that you can map out the eventual path your dwarves will carve, which is veeeery handy, and also saves time in certain situations.
However, to make the feature more fitting in vanilla, you could possibly create some kind of function to determine if the vein tiles are actually exposed, and then only designate those visible portions of the vein.
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 16, 2022, 07:19:13 am
2. Would custom/moddable biomes and dimensions be possible in the future at some point after the map rewrite and mythgen?
That is, for biomes this would ideally enable things like custom ranges of flora/fauna with different predominances.
And for dimensions, would allow stuff like their own set of biomes and geology/material composition and structural generation (probably borrowed from other parts of worldgen, like "this is a cavern-like dimension" or "this place is made of floating rocks in a void" or something; or maybe that would be per-biome or something) and their metaphysical/magical rules (to an extent anyway; leaving some flexibility for mythgen to play with the dimension to varying degrees would be good probably).
In both cases, I mean in advance of worldgen itself for worldgen to work with, not just editing a specific world map post-worldgen with the "map editor" that's been mentioned before.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 17, 2022, 04:15:10 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 18, 2022, 12:47:56 pm
How would mod updates work with the fact that saves don't keep raws anymore? One thing I see that worries me is that neither DFFD nor the Steam Workshop store old uploaded versions of mods (uploading a new version replaces the old one), so if all saves share mods (since they aren't stored inside the save folder anymore), that means updating a mod could irreversibly make all existing saves using it unplayable, and therefore as long as those saves exist, updating mods won't be safe/doable, so it won't be possible to use an updated version in a new save even though it could make use of it (if not for the other existing saves relying on the old version).
Post by: iwantjelly on February 21, 2022, 05:32:10 pm
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 21, 2022, 05:50:29 pm
Ok, if I understand correctly, Adventure Mode isn't sure to ever be released in the steam version ? That would be too bad, it has crazy potential !
Where did you hear adventure mode might not ever come to Steam? It'll definitely be coming eventually, though I think I've heard (unsubstantiated) rumors/guesses that it might be skipped for the first Steam release to get it out sooner, but those rumors will be confirmed or deconfirmed one way or another this Thursday when we get the official steam release roadmap.
Post by: voliol on February 21, 2022, 06:17:32 pm
Post by: iwantjelly on February 22, 2022, 04:17:10 am
Where did you hear adventure mode might not ever come to Steam? It'll definitely be coming eventually, though I think I've heard (unsubstantiated) rumors/guesses that it might be skipped for the first Steam release to get it out sooner, but those rumors will be confirmed or deconfirmed one way or another this Thursday when we get the official steam release roadmap.
Thanks for reassuring me ! This got me worried :
We haven't started converting adventure mode yet, and I think it's premature to say exactly how much we'll be able to manage before it crosses the point of being good enough for a release. It is a weird creature in a lot of ways, and a lot of things are broken about itMy overthinking self overthought these words as "it's so broken we're gonna try but maybe not succeed to cross the point of being good enough for a release", but that's just me then. I'll eagerly wait for the roadmap 8) the hype !
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 22, 2022, 04:35:28 am
For the future by the way, if you're directing a question at Toady you should color it lime green like this.
Post by: voliol on February 22, 2022, 04:49:15 am
Where did you hear adventure mode might not ever come to Steam? It'll definitely be coming eventually, though I think I've heard (unsubstantiated) rumors/guesses that it might be skipped for the first Steam release to get it out sooner, but those rumors will be confirmed or deconfirmed one way or another this Thursday when we get the official steam release roadmap.
Thanks for reassuring me ! This got me worried :We haven't started converting adventure mode yet, and I think it's premature to say exactly how much we'll be able to manage before it crosses the point of being good enough for a release. It is a weird creature in a lot of ways, and a lot of things are broken about itMy overthinking self overthought these words as "it's so broken we're gonna try but maybe not succeed to cross the point of being good enough for a release", but that's just me then. I'll eagerly wait for the roadmap 8) the hype !
Either way what comes for Premium (i.e. the Steam/itch.io) version will be all that Classic (i.e. the free versions once the game is out on Steam/itch.io) will have and then some, due to Steam contracts where they want all features of a game on their platform. So if Premium isn’t getting Adventurer mode then so is no version of Dwarf Fortress, and I just can’t see a third of the game getting put on the chopping block.
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 22, 2022, 02:42:18 pm
But for myth and magic (and maybe even future updates possibly, if you have plans that far ahead), what do you imagine these "top level, non-advanced" sliders for worlds would be? The most obvious ones (and which have been mentioned before) for myth&magic are a "mundane vs fantasy" slider, and a "randomness" slider separate to that maybe (though what a zero-fantasy world with high randomness would even mean?), but there also has been mention of things like world bleakness and such in the past, so I'm curious what you consider worthy of being a "basic" slider for the normal worldgen menu.
2. So you got a new batch of music from the composer apparently... What will it be for?
Post by: voliol on February 23, 2022, 02:12:39 pm
Now, some questions:
1. What menus could not make it over to Classic semi-automatically? Due to what UI elements? The icon buttons?
2. It makes sense to me that Adventure and Legends mode get priority over Steam Workshop support. Is 4. on the roadmap just investigating Workshop, or for implementing it as well if it doesn’t take too long?
3. Have you figured a way to make future menus Classic/Premium-proof, having seen what broke this time? So that you won’t have to do double menus in the future?
Post by: Mobbstar on February 23, 2022, 02:29:43 pm
Does "haven't done anything with Adventure mode and Arena mode yet" mean these modes would be available with the old (0.47) interface? Or unavailable at all?
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 23, 2022, 03:06:46 pm
]Does "haven't done anything with Adventure mode and Arena mode yet" mean these modes would be available with the old (0.47) interface? Or unavailable at all?
I wouldn't be surprised if they worked with the old 0.47 interface; we saw at least once in one of the devlog updates on the Kitfox youtube channel where Tarn accidentally entered an old screen. It seems like even the new background color for menus (as opposed to "ASCII black") is something that has to be done manually, so those mode's menus I suspect are just the same as they are now.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 24, 2022, 03:05:55 am
Whatever you do, DON'T do a "full release" with half of the game missing (Classic, Adventure Mode, Arena, ...). IF you feel a need to get something out there for feedback and whatnot, make an alpha release (a.k.a. "Early Access"), but don't adopt the awful deceitful recent practice of making a "full release" that actually doesn't contain half of the contents. Also, if you do make an alpha release, make a firm promise to actually finish the job before moving on to the "post release" phase, or you'll make it far too easy to push those parts off until never, especially when under pressure from those who don't care about the missing parts. Or you can make the honest decision to drop the cumbersome parts and state that clearly. An honest disappointment is far better than a deceptive promise that won't be kept.
Also note that an alpha release will inundate you with new bug reports of most of the bugs that are currently in the bug tracker as new people encounter them. They will demand that these bugs get fixed yesterday.
If I had had it my way DF would be in perpetual "Early Access", but that would be in its beta stages, not this alpha stage. And it has been decided not to do it that way...
Post by: voliol on February 24, 2022, 03:35:44 am
Edit: Where does tutorialization go in the roadmap? With the tool-tips?
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 24, 2022, 07:31:39 am
Feedback on the Official Announcement of yesterday:
Whatever you do, DON'T do a "full release" with half of the game missing (Classic, Adventure Mode, Arena, ...). IF you feel a need to get something out there for feedback and whatnot, make an alpha release (a.k.a. "Early Access"), but don't adopt the awful deceitful recent practice of making a "full release" that actually doesn't contain half of the contents. Also, if you do make an alpha release, make a firm promise to actually finish the job before moving on to the "post release" phase, or you'll make it far too easy to push those parts off until never, especially when under pressure from those who don't care about the missing parts. Or you can make the honest decision to drop the cumbersome parts and state that clearly. An honest disappointment is far better than a deceptive promise that won't be kept.
Also note that an alpha release will inundate you with new bug reports of most of the bugs that are currently in the bug tracker as new people encounter them. They will demand that these bugs get fixed yesterday.
If I had had it my way DF would be in perpetual "Early Access", but that would be in its beta stages, not this alpha stage. And it has been decided not to do it that way...
Some people have made a very good case for doing Adventure mode before releasing (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/szobaz/steam_community_update_23_february_2022_release/hy857m6/), but IMO Classic could safely be done later after the release, since most people who would play Classic would either not be buying the release anyway, or they would buy anyway even without ASCII just to support Toady.
Maybe just a quick thing thrown together in a week or whatever (no multilevel view or menu differences from the Premium version, perhaps other than swapping the menu graphics for ASCII-like glyphs and color scheme) would be an okay stopgap for the ASCII folks? It wouldn't look nearly as appealing as a "proper" ASCII/Classic menu rework, but could be workable for those few who want the ASCII, while still allowing the game to come out soon without impacting reviews negatively.
Post by: squamous on February 24, 2022, 05:03:01 pm
1. Are there any plans in the near future (post-Steam release) to implement a description tag for things like plants and items?
2. Even if the graphical version of the game is published with only fort mode available, will the classic version of the game exist on steam as a separate branch of the game you could chose to install?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on February 26, 2022, 03:35:17 am
<snip>Quote from: A_Curious_Cat<snip>
Finally, I’ve noticed that it’s impossible to show the entirety of an embark even at the largest zoom level because part of the embark gets cut off by the black regions on the sides. Would it be possible to change this to allow the full embark to be seen (I’d kind of like to get a screenshot of my full embark, but it’s currently impossible)?
<snip>
Embark image: I don't think this'll be possible. In the existing version, there is the image export feature which produces what's effectively a screenshot of a z-slice, which you could then resize in any way you like, though maybe not what you wanted? (though we haven't got that done either)
I use a separate program to capture screenshots.
Here's some gifs to illustrate the problem (I had to downscale one of them because the image-hosting site kept choking on it...):
Spoiler: World Map (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Embark Map (click to show/hide)
Note that, in both gifs, the game is completely zoomed out.
Post by: voliol on February 26, 2022, 04:41:06 am
What are the legalities of releasing the game on Steam without ASCII or Adventure mode? Considering the parity issues mentioned before, and that those parts would exist outside of the Steam version in 0.47.05, are there any risks of 0.47.05 downloads on the Bay 12 site leading to trouble? Or does that mean including a 0.47.05 download as well, somewhere in the Steam setup for Premium?
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 26, 2022, 05:28:32 am
What are the legalities of releasing the game on Steam without ASCII or Adventure mode? Considering the parity issues mentioned before, and that those parts would exist outside of the Steam version in 0.47.05, are there any risks of 0.47.05 downloads on the Bay 12 site leading to trouble? Or does that mean including a 0.47.05 download as well, somewhere in the Steam setup for Premium?
Hmm, this probably can only be answered properly by lawyers (ie Kitfox), so it may be better to ask them (Tarn will likely need to ask them to find out to answer you here anyway, unless he already did ask).
EDIT: I'd guess it's probably okay, and would definitely be okay if this were done: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179594.0
EDIT2: also, someone on Discord suggested just putting the current ASCII version as a Beta branch (not something one would use by accident, so no worries about bad first impressions).
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 26, 2022, 06:35:50 am
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580417881385467914/947091899712405514/unknown.png)
Each of those icons (helmets, magnifying glass, backpack etc) and the "borders" and backgrounds for the text buttons (the ones that say "Add uniform" and "Customize"), and the golden border and greenish-grey background of the menu itself... Are all those things (and the entire rest of the game UI) pulling from a spritesheet, available to be edited by graphics packs? I'm pretty sure myself that they are, but some others are less sure and I don't really have any evidence to tell them otherwise.
EDIT: nevermind; literal seconds after I post this someone found a previous FotF response confirming that they are in fact all moddable haha.
Post by: Mr Crabman on February 27, 2022, 06:04:54 am
2. Do you expect that there would be any kind of automatic version compatibility detection for mods (based on author-provided information of course), or would the nature of the version numbers make it just something the end user has to figure out? Like, if the author says that "3.0" is incompatible with "2.9" saves, would the syntax the author uses for that make it possible for the game to auto-detect that the mod shouldn't be updated to 3.0 for that save?
3. Will it be possible for graphics packs to define a greyscale texture and then have it be filled in with a true color? I ask because this old post by Meph: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178199.msg8255811#msg8255811
Shows that hair colors for example, are bunched into groups, where each defined color has to point to its own specific sprite in a spritemap; so basically, would it be possible in principle to only have one sprite for a given hairstyle, and pull the color for the (greyscale) sprite directly from the defined set of colors? Or does each color always have to be its own sprite?
Post by: BlueManedHawk on February 28, 2022, 05:51:20 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 01, 2022, 02:21:30 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on March 01, 2022, 11:47:37 am
Why does DF use its own special format for raw files instead of an existing format (and particularly, why was the decision made that the format should SCREAM EVERYTHING)?
Additional question along these lines, under what circumstances would you switch to a more traditional format for raw fies? You've mentioned before the idea of switching to a "proper scripting language" in a way that didn't sound like it was totally out of the question, just impractical.
Post by: Toady One on March 01, 2022, 08:02:59 pm
Quote from: Mr Crabman
But can [moving the camera during worldgen] now be done unpaused? Sorry for asking, it's just that this sentence feels ambiguous.
Do you think it would be feasible to do [mod options] before the first release? Even just being able to enable and disable particular raw files (or multiple raw files) from being loaded/read based on labeled checkboxes (maybe also with a descriptive "this will enable X" blurb written by the mod author) being ticked or not would go a long way, basically offering equivalent power to what we have now, and it would solve the potential problem of the workshop (and DFFD probably) being filled with similar but slightly different versions of mods. Being able to enable or disable specific chunks of raw files (marked by special tokens at the start and end of the "chunk") would be even better, but presumably a bit harder to implement.
What's the limit for zooming out, and what's the cause of this limit? I worry if it might prevent larger screens from being able to see bigger sections of the embark (leading to them just having "bigger tile squares" instead, which isn't an ideal use of extra screen space).
[identical filenames:] What about the header at the top of the file (which can be different to the filename in principle, though usually it's the same), or was that implied in your response?
Ah, no, not currently. It would be simple, though I'm a bit worried it'll still lag if somebody is deep in a large world gen. It hasn't been noticeable in the 200s on a large, so maybe it'll be fine. Things tend to get even more intensive though as the number of events etc. goes up.
It's feasible, the first one anyway. I'm not sure how fiddly the chunk one would get, since not everything is set up to be parsed the same way as the creature ones (which offer some of that "do what you want with the raw text" functionality), if I recollect.
Zooming is out, currently, which perhaps ruins the images A_Curious_Cat was trying to make. I didn't know they were animated. This happened early on, since the zooming worked by making copies of the glyphs, and that just doesn't work fast enough now. If we ever get textured quads it'll be pretty easy to bring back since those scale naturally and the grids are all set up to scale, but if I remember we never attained a textured quad/triangle print that we could turn on by default. This is one of the things SDL 2 might give us, since it has more texture support, but I don't know and it's difficult to justify a possibly failed month trying at this point.
Quote from: OluapPlayer
Are gremlins being trainable intentional, or a case of a pet token you forgot to remove? Given they're the only sapients you can train, and trained sapients are buggy at best, I was wondering whether it was an accident or something you actually intend to expand upon later.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8350582#msg8350582
Yeah, this is all kind of half-assed, based on a very old joke/easter egg that gremlins could be 'tamed' after being caught in cage traps but then would still go pull levers, if this ever worked. It should probably all just be turned off at this point and revisited from something more like the villain/impersonation context vampires etc. use, and that wouldn't be a high priority thing.
Quote from: Olim
How much can/has DF be/been multithreaded?
As CPUs grow wider and not fast, it seems like headroom for performance for Single Threaded applications has been reached.
DF seems to have a lot of opportunity for threadedness which has not been taken advantage of but this can be hard to perceive. Often threadable tasks are quick and efficient while the non-threadable tasks may be long and slow so the actions which were threaded are completed quickly and wait while the rest of the software completes.
Are there other milestones which stand in the way or things which need to be stabilized before threading is safe?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8350582#msg8350582
Don't have much to add to what PatrikLundell said. The display code does run on a separate thread (thanks to the people that set that up, not me!), but expanded to other stuff has proved more difficult, despite the help people have provided with e.g. microthreading code examples etc.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
Will the other main civilizations (especially humans) get hairstyles for the Steam release? It looks like only dwarven civs have defined hair styles in the raws it seems, and now that we have graphics, it could be weird or samey looking if everybody ends up with super long ungroomed hair unless they live with dwarves.
It was noticeable yeah, ha ha. There's a note for it, and hopefully that'll be done.
Quote from: TheFlame52
I noticed a while back that night trolls that abduct creatures always transform their new mate exactly 9 months after the kidnapping. Is this because of pregnancy time? Does this mean that giving birth to a night troll's child turns a creature into a night troll? Why does it work the same way for male abductees? If worldgen happens to end during the time between a kidnapping and the transformation, could I travel to the night creature's lair and peer into the data structures to see if the female is pregnant?
It looks like the conversion happens randomly during 2.5% of the weekly updates, and then a child is immediate the next week after conversion. There's no pregnancy.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Have you considered allowing players to designate an entire ore/gem vein from an exposed tile instead of using a selection rectangle with sub-settings? I was recently reminded that the former is not a vanilla function (DFHack), and seems like a good quality of life addition for Steam.
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8352654#msg8352654
Salmuek: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8352666#msg8352666
I don't like the ability to distinguish invisible tiles, if Salmuek's correct that this is what you mean. The vanilla automine feature was meant to cut down on the amount of (at the time) keypresses required to follow a vein, but I understand that the vein might loop back around to ruin some other plan you'd made. I'm not sure how to fix this without omniscience or some fiddly blocking feature related to blueprints.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
1. Why are embark tiles 48x48? It feels like a weird number, neither just an intuitive even number like 100, nor a power of 2 like 32 or 64.
2. Would custom/moddable biomes and dimensions be possible in the future at some point after the map rewrite and mythgen?
That is, for biomes this would ideally enable things like custom ranges of flora/fauna with different predominances.
And for dimensions, would allow stuff like their own set of biomes and geology/material composition and structural generation (probably borrowed from other parts of worldgen, like "this is a cavern-like dimension" or "this place is made of floating rocks in a void" or something; or maybe that would be per-biome or something) and their metaphysical/magical rules (to an extent anyway; leaving some flexibility for mythgen to play with the dimension to varying degrees would be good probably).
In both cases, I mean in advance of worldgen itself for worldgen to work with, not just editing a specific world map post-worldgen with the "map editor" that's been mentioned before.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8353052#msg8353052
1. Yeah, this is a weird ancient number - PatrikLundell may be right, but it's been so long I have no idea. I would have done 32 or 64 these days. There is a #define for it and I can just change it in that one place but... I think the number of bugs that would pop up would be extreme indeed, ha ha. I'm pretty sure even the map rewrite won't be enough to make the change, since it's just too dangerous.
2. Yeah, this is the idea (we've often talked about sphere-oriented regions, and it's kind of grown now into the map rewrite and the idea of editors and how myths will interact with it all to do various interesting stuff.) The editors should go beyond map editing, if that's in question. You should be able to work with more compact definitions that generates myths and worlds and regions, in addition to actually drawing stuff if you want. It remains to be seen how this will evolve though, since it's probably the largest project we've taken on and there is some desire to try to approach it in pieces - it's not clear how much it can be cut up.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
How would mod updates work with the fact that saves don't keep raws anymore? One thing I see that worries me is that neither DFFD nor the Steam Workshop store old uploaded versions of mods (uploading a new version replaces the old one), so if all saves share mods (since they aren't stored inside the save folder anymore), that means updating a mod could irreversibly make all existing saves using it unplayable, and therefore as long as those saves exist, updating mods won't be safe/doable, so it won't be possible to use an updated version in a new save even though it could make use of it (if not for the other existing saves relying on the old version).
Old installed mods should stay around at least - it unzips them into their own folder, which doesn't conflict with other installed versions, and I don't think Steam erases those since it isn't linked to their database. So there's one buffer anyway, though it wouldn't help if you had to reinstall the game or use another computer. Of course keeping the old installed mods also leads to a garbage pileup issue, since mostly you'll just want newer (compatible) mods. Not sure what to do about that yet.
Quote from: iwantjelly
Ok, if I understand correctly, Adventure Mode isn't sure to ever be released in the steam version ? That would be too bad, it has crazy potential !
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8354137#msg8354137
iwantjelly (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8354248#msg8354248
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8354252#msg8354252
The roadmap post http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8354566#msg8354566 is where we are at currently.
Quote from: voliol
How often are you designing/planning/discussing other future stuff during, or when taking pauses from, working on the Premium release? Compared to during a more ”feature-heavy” arc like the villains one. Is it more often as revamping menus is more samey? Or more seldom because of being busy or having planned out what can be already? Or about the same?
The Premium release is taking up basically all of our DF time now.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
1. The number of sliders that can be put into the "main" generation screen is limited for obvious reasons of not being overwhelming; just some basic stuff, and all the masses of complex options get shoved into the advanced worldgen menu.
But for myth and magic (and maybe even future updates possibly, if you have plans that far ahead), what do you imagine these "top level, non-advanced" sliders for worlds would be? The most obvious ones (and which have been mentioned before) for myth&magic are a "mundane vs fantasy" slider, and a "randomness" slider separate to that maybe (though what a zero-fantasy world with high randomness would even mean?), but there also has been mention of things like world bleakness and such in the past, so I'm curious what you consider worthy of being a "basic" slider for the normal worldgen menu.
2. So you got a new batch of music from the composer apparently... What will it be for?
1. This dates back to the first Armok (where it obviously didn't go anywhere), but the idea is to allow people to make a fantasy setting of their choosing. Since the myth stuff has proven so promising, I'm not actually sure how we're going to narrow it down now ha ha. The old three slider idea seems like it doesn't capture everything, but it might not be too overwhelming to just have a few tabs concerning structure, progression/narrative, and atmosphere that you can kind of rabbit-hole down into if you choose to expand certain options. It'll become more clear I think as the raw/generator format settles - I'll more easily have power over some things than others, and it'll make sense to highlight those levers.
2. Legends, more seasonal stuff, caverns, battles... and there's more coming, ha ha. This has been going quite well.
Quote from: voliol
1. What menus could not make it over to Classic semi-automatically? Due to what UI elements? The icon buttons?
2. It makes sense to me that Adventure and Legends mode get priority over Steam Workshop support. Is 4. on the roadmap just investigating Workshop, or for implementing it as well if it doesn’t take too long?
3. Have you figured a way to make future menus Classic/Premium-proof, having seen what broke this time? So that you won’t have to do double menus in the future?
1. Yeah, the icon buttons are the main problem, and every menu we've shown that uses them. Which is almost all of them in one way or another. The buttons are very compact, and if the ASCII+tooltips don't suffice, then we'll need bigger, textier buttons in those cases, which can cascade outward.
2. If it doesn't take too long, then yeah. It's nontrivial, I've been told, but hopefully straightforward - I've never done any internet code before, so if their library/etc. doesn't handle that part, it'll be much more difficult. Once I can get a subscribed mod zip on the disk, we should be in good shape.
3. Some thought and experience will go a long way, ha ha. I think double menus will probably be justified in some future cases, but the restrictions and requirements will be in mind, which should be most of it.
Quote from: Mobbstar
Does "haven't done anything with Adventure mode and Arena mode yet" mean these modes would be available with the old (0.47) interface? Or unavailable at all?
If they don't have graphics and mouse support, they won't be in the Premium release.
Quote from: voliol
Will the weapons made by Ironhand keep the same style, or were the bases as well as the variations we’ve seen made by Meph? If they have changed, may we see them (for mod spriting purposes, as well as curiosity)?
Where does tutorialization go in the roadmap? With the tool-tips?
I am hopefully showing some of these in the dev log presently. They are a bit different, and the coloration method is new.
Yeah, when we do the tool-tips etc. we want to come out of it with that part complete.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
What sort of features for Legends mode were you thinking of for point 5 in the roadmap? I assumed the hyperlinks, tabs and worldgen chronicle were going to be the end of it to be honest, at least until post-release.
The main thing we are missing from the ASCII version is the maps.
Quote
Quote from: squamous1. Are there any plans in the near future (post-Steam release) to implement a description tag for things like plants and items?
2. Even if the graphical version of the game is published with only fort mode available, will the classic version of the game exist on steam as a separate branch of the game you could chose to install?Quote from: voliolWhat are the legalities of releasing the game on Steam without ASCII or Adventure mode? Considering the parity issues mentioned before, and that those parts would exist outside of the Steam version in 0.47.05, are there any risks of 0.47.05 downloads on the Bay 12 site leading to trouble? Or does that mean including a 0.47.05 download as well, somewhere in the Steam setup for Premium?
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8355304#msg8355304
1. It has come up, but never really had a time to be slotted in. There's also tension with procedural stuff and details of how they are used and such. We're not generally going to be a Qudlike game in the sense of having well-written descriptions.
2/voliol. Steam has said they'd be satisfied with branches as I recollect.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
1. How flexible is the versioning for mods? Like, is it just a string that you can put anything in, or does it want 3 numbers separated by dots, or an arbitrary number of dot separated numbers, or what?
2. Do you expect that there would be any kind of automatic version compatibility detection for mods (based on author-provided information of course), or would the nature of the version numbers make it just something the end user has to figure out? Like, if the author says that "3.0" is incompatible with "2.9" saves, would the syntax the author uses for that make it possible for the game to auto-detect that the mod shouldn't be updated to 3.0 for that save?
3. Will it be possible for graphics packs to define a greyscale texture and then have it be filled in with a true color? I ask because this old post by Meph: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178199.msg8255811#msg8255811
Shows that hair colors for example, are bunched into groups, where each defined color has to point to its own specific sprite in a spritemap; so basically, would it be possible in principle to only have one sprite for a given hairstyle, and pull the color for the (greyscale) sprite directly from the defined set of colors? Or does each color always have to be its own sprite?
1+2. The displayed version can be anything. Rather than trying to parse various formats, there's also a simple integer version that isn't visible for the player. It'll be slightly annoying for authors to keep tabs on it separately perhaps, but I wasn't sure of another way to do it that didn't force a standardized version format, which I assumed people wouldn't be happy with. And the main benefit was that automatic version compatibility detection is just a simple check for bigger numbers, against whatever numbers the authors provide.
3. This has changed quite a bit. Rather than grayscale, for many items now, we've implemented palette swaps, so that each color can be selected more artistically. I'm not sure if hair colors will get the same treatment or remain as they are for now, since each implementation takes time, but ideally that would lead to the best looking hair since highlights could be done without being forced into a flat or overlay model as we had been doing previously with e.g. minerals and swords, which led to things looking a little dull or washed out.
Quote
Quote from: BlueManedHawkWhy does DF use its own special format for raw files instead of an existing format (and particularly, why was the decision made that the format should SCREAM EVERYTHING)?Quote from: Mr CrabmanAdditional question along these lines, under what circumstances would you switch to a more traditional format for raw fies? You've mentioned before the idea of switching to a "proper scripting language" in a way that didn't sound like it was totally out of the question, just impractical.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8356159#msg8356159
PatrikLundell is correct in that even though stuff like Python/Lua is from the 90s (as far as I can tell), I hadn't heard of it by the time I started the DF txt files, though it's hard to remember exactly... I think the first game I knew that used Lua was Civ 5, after DF was out and about for years, and as I recollect, this is really when I became aware of standard practices of game scripting languages, though I might be forgetting something. Civ 4 used Python I think, but I wasn't aware of that. Dunno about before that. I remember messing with Age of Empires (1) flat files but don't remember if they had a standard format. In any case, it wasn't on my radar as something really useful until it was too late.
It'd be a huge project to implement. The least problem is the amount of text files to be converted - much harder I expect is all the various code integration, with the added problem of my having zero experience at all here. I don't even know if Lua is the normal decision anymore or if other things have become more accepted.
Post by: Su on March 01, 2022, 10:36:19 pm
I don't even know if Lua is the normal decision anymore or if other things have become more accepted.
not sure if this is quite the right place to ask this, but as a game developer i would be very interested to know what the standard / best practices are when it comes to scripting formats [more specifically static data declaration, as is the case with the df raws] also.
Post by: clinodev on March 01, 2022, 10:39:43 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 02, 2022, 02:37:55 am
The RAW format, in contrast is data only, for which there are things like XML and JSON (with XML having Schemas, i.e. a way to define what the legal format of the data looks like, and thus a way to automatically verify that the data provided actually matches the format, as well as generation of code to parse the data [but you'd still have to "translate" that into the program's internal data representation manually]).
The nutjob who created JSON threw out the baby with the bath water when removing the support for comments in a rage fit over someone "abusing" comments for processing directives, according to the explanation I've heard, so comments are out, unless you disguise them as data...
DFHack defines the DF structures using XML and supports scripts written in Lua (the script most frequently used. There's additional support). I don't know whether those choices would be the same today, however.
Note that none of the above should be seen as recommendations. There may very well be more suitable candidates for both scripting and data definition, but you should use something suitable for your purpose, not something that's widely use for other purposes.
Post by: Mr Crabman on March 02, 2022, 06:09:32 am
Old installed mods should stay around at least - it unzips them into their own folder, which doesn't conflict with other installed versions, and I don't think Steam erases those since it isn't linked to their database. So there's one buffer anyway, though it wouldn't help if you had to reinstall the game or use another computer. Of course keeping the old installed mods also leads to a garbage pileup issue, since mostly you'll just want newer (compatible) mods. Not sure what to do about that yet.
Ah, that's good to hear.
How does the idea of grouping different versions of a single mod inside the same folder sound for helping with this issue? And under the same "slot" in the ingame list, with a list of which versions you have alongside the description stuff (maybe a dropdown menu where the version number is displayed). This would at least somewhat neaten the mod folder and ingame modloader (so the garbage buildup would just be about disc space rather than clutter), unless this is how it already works?
For preventing garbage pileup/disc space problems, a "clean up unused mod versions" button seems like it would do the trick.
2. Legends, more seasonal stuff, caverns, battles... and there's more coming, ha ha. This has been going quite well.
Ah cool; hope the old track won't be neglected though if Legends has something else...
If they don't have graphics and mouse support, they won't be in the Premium release.
Could the current/old versions be enabled through some out-of-the-way config option somewhere, maybe even requiring editing a text file instead of just toggling something in the menu? At least the Object Testing Arena, because it's quite handy for... Object testing. Trying to update mods for the new graphics functionality (or trying to make new mods entirely) for the Premium version would go somewhat slower and more painfully if there is no way to instantly test things on the Premium version, and if the concern is exposing unwitting new players to an unpolished and difficult to use menu, requiring out-of-the-way configuration to access it would solve this.
Post by: Mobbstar on March 02, 2022, 03:41:35 pm
And thanks to Crabman for thinking ahead wrt modding!
Python an Lua are both script languages, which means they can be used to write plugin scripts. I don't think they're particularly good for defining data, though (although Lua is better than C in that regard, which doesn't say much).
Having modded with Lua before, I agree with this. Lua's greatest strength for modding is the ability to re-arrange function calls and shuffle data with little to no knowledge of what other mods may do. This would require DF to be partially rewritten and exposed in Lua.
Some of Lua's shortcoming wrt data are, to quote a friend: no integer type, coercion between strings and numbers, "tables" being one kind of data structure for both sequences and key/value associations (and mixtures of both)
Note that none of the above should be seen as recommendations. There may very well be more suitable candidates for both scripting and data definition, but you should use something suitable for your purpose, not something that's widely use for other purposes.
Add yaml to the list of candidates. Like json and xml, it supports schema.
Post by: Putnam on March 02, 2022, 03:54:32 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 02, 2022, 05:37:05 pm
The nutjob who created JSON threw out the baby with the bath water when removing the support for comments in a rage fit over someone "abusing" comments for processing directives, according to the explanation I've heard, so comments are out, unless you disguise them as data...
I... What?
Post by: voliol on March 03, 2022, 04:27:50 am
The nutjob who created JSON threw out the baby with the bath water when removing the support for comments in a rage fit over someone "abusing" comments for processing directives, according to the explanation I've heard, so comments are out, unless you disguise them as data...
I... What?
Wikipedia refers to this archived Google+ post (https://archive.ph/20150704102718/https://plus.google.com/+DouglasCrockfordEsq/posts/RK8qyGVaGSr) of Douglas Crockford (the guy who made it).
Quote from: Douglas Crockford on April 03, 2012
I removed comments from JSON because I saw people were using them to hold parsing directives, a practice which would have destroyed interoperability. I know that the lack of comments makes some people sad, but it shouldn't.
Suppose you are using JSON to keep configuration files, which you would like to annotate. Go ahead and insert all the comments you like. Then pipe it through JSMin before handing it to your JSON parser.
Post by: Rumrusher on March 03, 2022, 07:16:19 am
-snip-this old joke led to some funny adv builds. Since they were probably one of the fun types of pets to get for a human outsider given one could see how many gremlins could survive any hostile encounter or attempt to train and armed a pack of gremlins with weapons see if they fair better. then there's the making a gremlin performing troupe.Quote from: OluapPlayerAre gremlins being trainable intentional, or a case of a pet token you forgot to remove? Given they're the only sapients you can train, and trained sapients are buggy at best, I was wondering whether it was an accident or something you actually intend to expand upon later.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8350582#msg8350582
Yeah, this is all kind of half-assed, based on a very old joke/easter egg that gremlins could be 'tamed' after being caught in cage traps but then would still go pull levers, if this ever worked. It should probably all just be turned off at this point and revisited from something more like the villain/impersonation context vampires etc. use, and that wouldn't be a high priority thing.
-snip-
Post by: Mr Crabman on March 04, 2022, 02:25:14 pm
Can 2 different files in different mods use the same header? By "header", I mean the first line in the raw file, which apparently, unlike the actual filename, determines the raw loading order; for example:
Code: [Select]
creature_other
[OBJECT:CREATURE]
[CREATURE:FOXSQUIRREL]
Here `creature_other` is the header, and `creature_ocean.txt` has the header `creature_ocean`.
So the question is basically: will 2 different, simultaneously loaded mods be able to use a file that is named `creature_other.txt` and have `creature_other` as its header (and each mod would have different contents in each file), or would this cause one of the files to be ignored or overridden?
Having to be careful about naming the mod identifier itself, and about naming object identifiers (assuming you don't want to overwrite the vanilla [CREATURE:DWARF]) makes sense, but the filenames and headers would be rather convenient to have "isolated" within each mod so that one can just use readable filenames/headers without worrying if someone else has used them.
Post by: neblime on March 06, 2022, 09:00:21 am
Post by: voliol on March 08, 2022, 08:22:58 am
In the interview you mentioned the preference code being ancient, but even if it has been updated to reference any animal material, giant cockatiel teeth is a valid target as long as it doesn't check whether any tissues use the material.
Spoiler: Picture proof; all materials can be seen in the manager screen. (click to show/hide)
Edit: made it a bug report (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11857)
Post by: Mr Crabman on March 12, 2022, 01:48:59 pm
Post by: bieux on March 12, 2022, 07:38:51 pm
Post by: Mr Crabman on March 13, 2022, 01:49:11 pm
Post by: UselessMcMiner on March 13, 2022, 07:57:48 pm
Post by: Symmetry on March 16, 2022, 07:59:33 am
Thank you for the answers, Toady!
And thanks to Crabman for thinking ahead wrt modding!Python an Lua are both script languages, which means they can be used to write plugin scripts. I don't think they're particularly good for defining data, though (although Lua is better than C in that regard, which doesn't say much).
Having modded with Lua before, I agree with this. Lua's greatest strength for modding is the ability to re-arrange function calls and shuffle data with little to no knowledge of what other mods may do. This would require DF to be partially rewritten and exposed in Lua.
Some of Lua's shortcoming wrt data are, to quote a friend: no integer type, coercion between strings and numbers, "tables" being one kind of data structure for both sequences and key/value associations (and mixtures of both)
For what it's worth, lua was originally a data definition language and the scripting was added later.
It's better to think of lua supporting integers up to the max int expressible in the mantissa of a float, rather than it not supporting integers.
I think it's a great data definition language, and the addition fo full scripting allows you to define data with code to generate the data in cases where that makes sense.
The biggest problem with it is memory usage, you have to load the entire script into memory and then execute it to populate the lua tables with the data definition. So it takes ~2x memory it should need to.
naive solutions using other formats can have the same issue but are more easily solved.
This shouldn't be an issue for DF though as the memory requirements are tiny compared to the gigantic map. It can cause problems in some embedded environments though.
Post by: Putnam on March 18, 2022, 12:34:36 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on March 21, 2022, 12:05:37 am
Quote from: Eric BlankIf modifications are done to the vanilla raw/objects folder directly instead of packed into a mod zip file, does the game treat them like theyre vanilla objects, and then additional mods are applied on top of those per the load order?
Do you yet have a means of handling mod conflicts, for instance if two mods both modify creature_standard.txt? Are you open to suggestions on ways to handle or reduce conflicts? I had a few immediate ideas actually
Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8340044#msg8340044
If you alter the base game files directly, the game has no idea this has happened, and treats them as the vanilla objects.
Suggestions threads are always welcome - people have made some regarding mod management already and it's helpful to see what people want here especially since modding is naturally community-oriented.
As Su says, the load order is the new main way of managing conflicts, and also the manual tagging of conflicting mods (which I imagine will mostly just apply to mods in use by a lot of people, since it's a manual process.) It seems difficult to try and tackle any meaningful conflict detection in code. People will just need to be mindful of the mods they are installing, but I'm open to ideas people have, though I won't be able to act on a lot of them initially.
I have finally written out that suggestion, just FYI: here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179661.msg8361023#msg8361023)
Post by: Su on March 26, 2022, 08:33:12 pm
Post by: Buttery_Mess on March 30, 2022, 02:37:43 pm
How does the material blend with the colour palette in engraved images? What I'm thinking of is, if a particular material has a primary colour of black and secondary of green, and another material, primary of black and secondary of green, could you make an attractive chequerboard pattern of circles with the right material?
Do you have any plans for constructed engravings?
Post by: Urist McSadist on March 31, 2022, 02:12:05 am
2.It's pretty annoying how once you retire your fort, half your dwarves leave. Is there any planned fix for that?
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 31, 2022, 07:49:20 pm
Post by: Putnam on April 01, 2022, 03:09:19 pm
As I understand it, engraved floors will now show an image of the thing engraved. How does this work for the more abstract subjects, such as the shapes? Does it show only the first noun if, for example, the description is complex (for instance, "a Dwarf slaying numberless goblins. The dwarf is laughing," would render as a dwarf?) If the image is of a specific historical figure, how does the game 'dress' the image- is it based on what they're currently wearing, or is it based on their occupation? If so, does the game remember their occupation after death? Are generic dwarfs naked?
For the record, the game already does this, if you have an init setting off (and you can also toggle it with d->v). It uses the tile for whatever immediately follows "image of".
Post by: Toady One on April 01, 2022, 04:21:58 pm
Quote from: Mr Crabman
How does the idea of grouping different versions of a single mod inside the same folder sound for helping with this issue? And under the same "slot" in the ingame list, with a list of which versions you have alongside the description stuff (maybe a dropdown menu where the version number is displayed). This would at least somewhat neaten the mod folder and ingame modloader (so the garbage buildup would just be about disc space rather than clutter), unless this is how it already works?
Could the current/old versions be enabled through some out-of-the-way config option somewhere, maybe even requiring editing a text file instead of just toggling something in the menu? At least the Object Testing Arena, because it's quite handy for... Object testing. Trying to update mods for the new graphics functionality (or trying to make new mods entirely) for the Premium version would go somewhat slower and more painfully if there is no way to instantly test things on the Premium version, and if the concern is exposing unwitting new players to an unpolished and difficult to use menu, requiring out-of-the-way configuration to access it would solve this.
Can 2 different files in different mods use the same header? By "header", I mean the first line in the raw file, which apparently, unlike the actual filename, determines the raw loading order; for example:Code: [Select]creature_other
[OBJECT:CREATURE]
[CREATURE:FOXSQUIRREL]
Here `creature_other` is the header, and `creature_ocean.txt` has the header `creature_ocean`.
So the question is basically: will 2 different, simultaneously loaded mods be able to use a file that is named `creature_other.txt` and have `creature_other` as its header (and each mod would have different contents in each file), or would this cause one of the files to be ignored or overridden?
Having to be careful about naming the mod identifier itself, and about naming object identifiers (assuming you don't want to overwrite the vanilla [CREATURE:DWARF]) makes sense, but the filenames and headers would be rather convenient to have "isolated" within each mod so that one can just use readable filenames/headers without worrying if someone else has used them.
The disk space issue was the main issue I was thinking of, but it doesn't nest them currently, just shows the version numbers.
The modes don't function now, and I'm not going to try to cludge them in since it'll take extra time to make the parallel systems work. In arena mode's case that's probably the same amount of time as just doing the necessary arena mode menus.
I'm pretty sure the filenames can overlap between mods, and the header line there too (which should probably just be removed.)
Quote from: neblime
Zach says you're good at guitar now, and you said you've been practicing for years... any chance we can get a secret (patron only? ;)) bonus track for the release of the steam version of something in the same style by you? As much as you disparage your improvisation from way back when it has a mood to it and I think people would love something in a similar style and I hope it would be a pretty low effort project for you.
It doesn't feel low effort, ha ha. Doing an actual track for the OST sitting by the other tracks would require more time/focus than I can justify.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
You've said before there's going to be multiple "passes" of magic update, and the first one isn't going to have all the stuff you have planned, but will lay out the framework for it to be possible. Where do these "extra passes" fit into the timeline? Are they just multiple different releases one after the other (and being released in pieces/passes so that the big wait isn't quite as big), or would they be separated by other update arcs like starting scenarios or economy or boats?
Dunno! Even though it's still a huge release, we're going to try to do the smallest release we can that still has large stuff we need (like the map rewrite.) That'll take long enough and change enough that we'll have to see where it goes from there.
Quote from: bieux
Is there any technical constraint or conceptual reasoning behind beverages not changing in qualiy the same way meals' quality depends on cooking skills? I just noticed how brewers don't get to make masterwork distilations, and I wondered if alcohol quality was ever considered before as a feature.
It has come up but I don't recall what the reason was at the time. That they are used in cooking? That they are more numerous and easily divisible, so it could be a data control thing? I can't think of any strong reason though.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
Is the new palette swap system going to be used for all items and constructions (walls, floors etc) so that the colors are accurate? I heard before that constructions weren't going to be recolored because it wouldn't look great, but with the new recoloring system that answer might have changed.
There were some early technical difficulties with floors, due to edging, but that's kinda-sorta handled, and constructions don't necessarily need or want edging if you want to do, say, mosaic floor patterns that look clean. We haven't drawn these constructions yet.
Quote from: UselessMcMiner
Will there be any changes to how "evil" artefacts get handled? For example the reason why necromancer apocalypses are so common is because after a slab is made, if the new necromancer either doesn't do much with it before perishing (persumably if they dont want to conquer the world/write books forever) and it gets dumped in a random hamlet/town it inevitably leads to the death of all nearby civilization because any random civilized mortal person who wants to become a necromancer can become one just by reading it with no delay. I doubt that anyone other than goblins/maybe weirder human civs would keep a dark slab like that around, especially if they know the potential consequences. Will this ever be changed? If it were would this apply say to artefacts made in fell moods/from goblin's doing murdering. It seems odd that fell mood artefact creators seem to go unpunished by their civilizations as well. Is this intentional?
Yeah, I imagine it'll be changed at some point, though not before the magic stuff generally most likely. It is a bit odd that readers are so enthusiastic.
I remember it was an intentional decision for the fell mood dwarves, and I think that was a combination of it being early in development (so we couldn't easily manage whatever we might want to do to them), and of them being feared/respected because of the artifact though we didn't think too much about it.
Quote from: Su
currently, all overground crops can be planted year-round. will this be changed before the Big Wait?
It isn't a focus of any of the arcs at least. I agree it's weird and not ideal for the game.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
As I understand it, engraved floors will now show an image of the thing engraved. How does this work for the more abstract subjects, such as the shapes? Does it show only the first noun if, for example, the description is complex (for instance, "a Dwarf slaying numberless goblins. The dwarf is laughing," would render as a dwarf?) If the image is of a specific historical figure, how does the game 'dress' the image- is it based on what they're currently wearing, or is it based on their occupation? If so, does the game remember their occupation after death? Are generic dwarfs naked?
How does the material blend with the colour palette in engraved images? What I'm thinking of is, if a particular material has a primary colour of black and secondary of green, and another material, primary of black and secondary of green, could you make an attractive chequerboard pattern of circles with the right material?
Do you have any plans for constructed engravings?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8364173#msg8364173
The engraved floors don't show anything because they haven't been drawn yet, and we'll have to see what happens. It might be too much to redraw all the large creatures to fit in a 32x32 etc. The image selection will work as Putnam describes. Doing entire scenes is too much to attempt, though at some future date some of the most common scenes (multiple dwarves etc.) might be attempted.
I imagine the colors will work the same way they'll work with the palettized floors, once we've drawn those if that's the way we go. That is, one color - vanilla materials have one color as far as I remember so I'm not sure what you mean about primaries and secondaries. Do you mean the ASCII background/foreground colors? It uses the material colors/RGB from the raws now.
I remember we have notes for engraving constructions as being a possibility for this release. Haven't gotten there yet.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Are the starting 7 ever gonna have customizable personalities and traits?
2.It's pretty annoying how once you retire your fort, half your dwarves leave. Is there any planned fix for that?
1. It'd be reasonable, but I'm not sure when. We did that whole adventure mode personality setter and if I remember were vaguely thinking of moving it over, but that wouldn't be possible until it's updated itself.
2. I'm not sure what the context of this question is. A bug (there are various retirement bugs), or the migration? They all join the migrant pool like other historical figures, so you can see them in future forts, so that part is intended.
Quote from: TheFlame52
Are there any plans to have countries have borders? Kinda hard to draw world maps when all the countries are interlaced with each other.
The mess will likely continue, since things are supposed to be messy, though we have a few additional notions we didn't have originally (with the various holdings) that give it a bit more structure sometimes.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 01, 2022, 07:52:56 pm
Post by: voliol on April 02, 2022, 05:47:28 am
Quote from: TheFlame52Are there any plans to have countries have borders? Kinda hard to draw world maps when all the countries are interlaced with each other.
The mess will likely continue, since things are supposed to be messy, though we have a few additional notions we didn't have originally (with the various holdings) that give it a bit more structure sometimes.
Is this part about the map screen in legends, and changes made to it for the upcoming release? Or don’t you think language borders will ever become clear in the game, even after entity/politics/what-have-you rewrites? I don’t know much about medeival geopolitics so I don’t know if fuzzy borders would be historically accurate.
Also, is the knowledge tab planned to eventually hold esoteric magicky knowledge? Or some other knowledge? It feels to me that the info in there wouldn’t be something I look up for an individual dwarf, because I don’t know how to interact with it, but maybe that is because it hasn’t surfaced before so I’ve not gotten used to it.
Post by: Inarius on April 05, 2022, 06:37:06 am
Post by: Su on April 05, 2022, 10:31:25 pm
I would love to have territorial wars, customs, frontier patrols, or fortified frontiers like the roman Limes. I would feel much more alive and real. At least for organised territories (human culture, for instance)
hi, welcome to the forums! if you want toady to read something, you should use lime green text. however, it looks like the suggestions board (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) might be a more apropriate place to post.
Post by: squamous on April 05, 2022, 11:24:55 pm
Is this part about the map screen in legends, and changes made to it for the upcoming release? Or don’t you think language borders will ever become clear in the game, even after entity/politics/what-have-you rewrites? I don’t know much about medeival geopolitics so I don’t know if fuzzy borders would be historically accurate.
I'm not exactly a professional historian but to my knowledge the existence of the Wesphalian nation state with defined borders was for the most part an anomaly prior to the 1600s-ish. The further back you go the more things degenerate into patchwork quilts of individual holdings which stretched everywhere and rarely formed nice, defined borders. Obviously exceptions could exist and some big ones likely do, but for the most part "control" ended outside settlements and beyond sight of the road, a problem which would probably be exacerbated by the existence of village-destroying monsters such as dragons or giants. Though given the depth and variety of simulation which Dwarf Fortress intends to eventually have it may be that due to magic or the way the world is this manner of nation can't really work, so it's difficult to say what constitutes as historically accurate when 20 years from now you might generate a world of floating islands where people pay liters of blood to see the future.
Post by: sanchezman on April 06, 2022, 01:20:19 pm
Post by: Mr Crabman on April 13, 2022, 04:42:53 pm
Post by: Inarius on April 15, 2022, 03:14:02 am
I would love to have territorial wars, customs, frontier patrols, or fortified frontiers like the roman Limes. I would feel much more alive and real. At least for organised territories (human culture, for instance)
hi, welcome to the forums! if you want toady to read something, you should use lime green text. however, it looks like the suggestions board (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) might be a more apropriate place to post.
Well, i have been here for the last 10 years, so don't welcome me. And here i don't want to speak to toady, i'm just reacting. I have asked or answered many times here before. If i wanted to ask Toady a question, at least i would use a "?" . Thanks for the help anyway but i think you are a bit overreacting here :)
Post by: Su on April 15, 2022, 04:01:54 am
I would love to have territorial wars, customs, frontier patrols, or fortified frontiers like the roman Limes. I would feel much more alive and real. At least for organised territories (human culture, for instance)
hi, welcome to the forums! if you want toady to read something, you should use lime green text. however, it looks like the suggestions board (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) might be a more apropriate place to post.
Well, i have been here for the last 10 years, so don't welcome me. And here i don't want to speak to toady, i'm just reacting. I have asked or answered many times here before. If i wanted to ask Toady a question, at least i would use a "?" . Thanks for the help anyway but i think you are a bit overreacting here :)
gosh, terribly sorry! i could have sworn i checked your post history before commenting, but i guess not.
Post by: Inarius on April 15, 2022, 04:20:45 am
May 11, 2012, 07:26:10 am
Well, actually, i'm quite close from the 10th anniversary :)
Don't worry, np. We are all here to wait, after all !
Post by: ror6ax on April 15, 2022, 06:07:23 pm
Post by: BlueManedHawk on April 15, 2022, 06:52:43 pm
Post by: WraithfulWrath on April 17, 2022, 08:03:27 pm
2. Slightly riding off of question one -- Will there be various “Prophecies” or “End times” events for the Proc. Generated Myth? If that concept is planned, will some Prophecies and/or End times actually happen during gameplay (meaning you can actually WATCH the world be destroyed or reformed) or will it just be part of the Myth story?
Post by: Silverwing235 on April 20, 2022, 05:12:48 am
Are there any planned uses for golden salve and liquid fire?
Questions to Toady kind of need to be like this (as opposed to, well, this) for clarity amongst the mess of queries - so, fixing a common screwup.
Post by: falcc on April 23, 2022, 03:29:12 pm
A ) Will there be a chance of a wanderer in the caverns being propositioned to steal something by the local animal people instead of just attacking every time?
B ) Is there any chance that animal people and/or trolls be able to petition release?
C ) What about getting messengers, negotiations, or demands from the elves petitioning for the release of animal people?
I know I've asked about trolls before but you recently talked about being unsure if they could be citizens already so I wondered if you'd changed your mind.
D ) Since changes to sieges and the second villains release are now both coming before The Big Wait will there be more ways of non-lethally incapacitating invaders than just static cages? Or options to leave them unconscious to be dragged off by their retreating army?
E ) If someone's armies get wooped in battle enough do they form a rival attachment to an enemy general? Or is that only for athletic matters? Semi-related do rivals have a bias towards or against kissing one another before/after an athletic competition?
Post by: BlueManedHawk on April 23, 2022, 10:34:18 pm
1. Will there be randomly generated “Chosen One(s)” “Son(s) of God(s)”, "Speakers for God(s)" or “Messiah(s)” in Dwarf Fortress's Myth [and Magic] Update?
I certainly doubt the term "messiah" will be used, but this does sound like it could be cool. I wonder if it would be possible to start adventurer mode games as a "Chosen One".
Post by: FantasticDorf on April 24, 2022, 09:46:08 am
Animal people from in the caverns are listed as possible targets for interrogation. Technically regular animals are too, so this might not be intended behavior. It still got me thinking.
A ) Will there be a chance of a wanderer in the caverns being propositioned to steal something by the local animal people instead of just attacking every time?
B ) Is there any chance that animal people and/or trolls be able to petition release?
~C is snipped~
'Indigenous' populations aren't really slated to have anything arrive for them until the law arc after the big wait and world rewrite into sorting things out for them to where they're nuanced civs/societies, im not sure if the underground is actually counted into that besides "deep dwarves" and what they will eventually turn out to be like.
On one hand, they could just be dwarves utilizing the space freed up by re-write which is a perfectly acceptable niche, on the other they could simply be a more intelligent form of dwarf subspecies as Toady discussions allude to, to be the framework of how player input civilizations can exist at that depth and trade/war without being technologically/moviationally (you stole xyz from our site, or we process reasons and plots like topside civs) or culturally bare bones, its really too early to say.
I know I've asked about trolls before but you recently talked about being unsure if they could be citizens already so I wondered if you'd changed your mind.
Im plenty sympathetic to the plight of semi-intelligent creatures like gremlins or troll 'pets', but persistence in asking about this probably won't pay off until they're overhauled likely alongside animalpeople in a later arc, there are plenty of technical DFhack solutions to try and utilize these creatures but you simply have to have a good grasp of the issues for the moment.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Question of my own: Are expansions to the C screen now you've revamped it in the recent devlog on the table for the future? trying not to skew the question with a suggestion, but practical ones like seeing tunnel connection points between fortresses and any subterrenean FOV your civilization has relevant for travelling.
Post by: Immortal-D on April 26, 2022, 12:31:04 pm
Post by: Mobbstar on April 26, 2022, 01:44:51 pm
Can a trade depot in Premium still accept multiple caravans?
Post by: Immortal-D on April 26, 2022, 07:05:40 pm
A trade depot in 0.47.05 can hold several caravans simultaneously. When the player tries to trade, the UI asks which one to trade with.[1] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179775.0) I don't recall seeing anything about this (admittedly niche) feature in the Premium devlogs and previews.Yes. Gameplay mechanics are the same between versions, and any instance where they are not is a bug.
Can a trade depot in Premium still accept multiple caravans?
Post by: voliol on April 28, 2022, 05:02:38 am
Edit: And apropos of the giant toad/toad man shown, do you have any plans for how to fix that bug of them not appearing in-game? Will the principle of creatures not just "spawning" but having to arrive from off-screen be broken, since ponds never cross the borders of the map?
Post by: Nilsolm on April 30, 2022, 08:35:55 am
Post by: voliol on April 30, 2022, 10:09:06 am
Unless I missed it, we haven't seen any screenshots of the Classic/ASCII version yet. Any chance we can get a preview of what it will look like?
It is one of the last points in the roadmap (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8354566#msg8354566), so I don’t think they have started working on it yet. Maybe they’ve done some small experiments, but I doubt they are representative enough of the final version to show.
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2022, 03:29:22 pm
Quote from: voliol
Is this part about the map screen in legends, and changes made to it for the upcoming release? Or don’t you think language borders will ever become clear in the game, even after entity/politics/what-have-you rewrites? I don’t know much about medeival geopolitics so I don’t know if fuzzy borders would be historically accurate.
Also, is the knowledge tab planned to eventually hold esoteric magicky knowledge? Or some other knowledge? It feels to me that the info in there wouldn’t be something I look up for an individual dwarf, because I don’t know how to interact with it, but maybe that is because it hasn’t surfaced before so I’ve not gotten used to it.
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8365215#msg8365215
squamous: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8365412#msg8365412
Certainly nothing is happening with them in the upcoming release (aside from showing your holdings, allies, enemies, etc.) And yeah, I think mainly I'm against the complete separation that you get in a lot of strategy games. The language and economy are related to but not imposed entirely by the rulers, and the rulers aren't all-or-nothing either. I just want to remain flexible, but I think it's also fair to want to see some clear information, and to be able to make/influence clear changes through your actions.
Quote from: sanchezman
I remember reading once that the Metropolitan Museum of Modern Art set up a preservation system for DF releases. There was some quote about how if all of Bay12 blew up, their curators would have a copy. Does that still exist, and will they get archival access to the premium releases?
I think they just meant that they download every copy that has been released. I haven't spoken to them about the premium releases. I wouldn't have any problem given them a key or whatever they need. I'm not sure what their policy is though.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
The new elven grown wood weapons seem to have leaves on them... Does this mean the graphics raws can differentiate between grown and normal wooden items?
Just weapons so far - I have to be pretty careful with the properties I allow in for each item to keep the texture lookup moving quickly. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to change over to a more general system for this reason, though I haven't completely given up on it.
Quote from: ror6ax
Last year you've made a statement of support to Palestine. It would mean a lot if you condemned russian genocide in Ukraine in similar way.
It's awful what is happening there, and as far as I can tell from reports, targeting of civilians by the Russian military appears to be systematic, which is evil. The reason there isn't a post on the dev log is that although some of our more outlandish TV may make it look contested, it's not a controversial position here. There are Ukrainian flags waving on houses in my neighborhood now, and the votes for Ukraine funding in our government have been near unanimous.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
Are there any planned uses for golden salve and liquid fire?
Nothing specific planned, nope! Now that they're starting to bump up against the myth/magic stuff slightly, it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything special first. I may have mentioned before (I don't recall) that the golden salve at least has a little more hope ever since we added all those beneficial shrine effects. It'd just require the hospital to keep it on hand and the doctors to understand what to do with it.
Quote
Quote from: WraithfulWrath1. Will there be randomly generated “Chosen One(s)” “Son(s) of God(s)”, "Speakers for God(s)" or “Messiah(s)” in Dwarf Fortress's Myth Update? If so, how will they be fit into the wider Creation Story and can they be tied into play or will they be a strictly Legends-only edition?
2. Slightly riding off of question one -- Will there be various “Prophecies” or “End times” events for the Proc. Generated Myth? If that concept is planned, will some Prophecies and/or End times actually happen during gameplay (meaning you can actually WATCH the world be destroyed or reformed) or will it just be part of the Myth story?Quote from: BlueManedHawkI certainly doubt the term "messiah" will be used, but this does sound like it could be cool. I wonder if it would be possible to start adventurer mode games as a "Chosen One".
1. This seems likely, at some point. Making them playable would be almost an RPG genre requirement, though I wouldn't want to have them in every world.
2. The existing prophets have very (very) bad 'procedural' prophecies we were hoping to expand upon. One of the key themes for myth/magic was emphasizing and allowing change, and blowing up the entire world etc. is a good and extreme example. There are lots of practical issues with this of course, the main one being what the player thinks and how it affects their ability to play (that is, taking it away.) So it's just sitting on the idea table currently, eliminating the world variously, in all modes (though it's pretty silly if it happens in legends, since you wouldn't be able to play at all unless the world is reborn - I'm not wholly against this, but it feels like it should be opt-in.) Of course, some apocalypses are partial in the sense that they are just terrible but don't destroy the world utterly, and w.g. could have multiple of these before you start playing.
More generally prophecies are hard because it's hard to get all the elements lined up and to respect them, but something is doable.
Quote from: falcc
Animal people from in the caverns are listed as possible targets for interrogation. Technically regular animals are too, so this might not be intended behavior. It still got me thinking.
A ) Will there be a chance of a wanderer in the caverns being propositioned to steal something by the local animal people instead of just attacking every time?
B ) Is there any chance that animal people and/or trolls be able to petition release?
C ) What about getting messengers, negotiations, or demands from the elves petitioning for the release of animal people?
I know I've asked about trolls before but you recently talked about being unsure if they could be citizens already so I wondered if you'd changed your mind.
D ) Since changes to sieges and the second villains release are now both coming before The Big Wait will there be more ways of non-lethally incapacitating invaders than just static cages? Or options to leave them unconscious to be dragged off by their retreating army?
E ) If someone's armies get wooped in battle enough do they form a rival attachment to an enemy general? Or is that only for athletic matters? Semi-related do rivals have a bias towards or against kissing one another before/after an athletic competition?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8369684#msg8369684
Interrogating animals may be the same silliness that convicting animals is.
A+B+C) This is all reasonable stuff. But yeah, I dunno when it fits or what's gonna happen. The underground animal people in generally used to be a much bigger part of the game, and I'd also like to get regular animal people out of limbo, and that fits somewhere with the map rewrite and the entity rewrite down the line.
D) Some of this is quite possible. I know dealing with captives more robustly and possibly humanely is in the army arc notes, anyway, after various previous discussions here.
E) The rival relationship is completely underutilized since it was (I think) part of the way to expand friend/acquaintance networks to jumpstart the villain stuff, which was then put on hold. Like other w.g. mechanics of this sort, it's hoped that we'll get it into play some day, and we don't even have athletics in play (and that feels very complicated.) But yeah, the term should also apply elsewhere.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Are expansions to the C screen now you've revamped it in the recent devlog on the table for the future? trying not to skew the question with a suggestion, but practical ones like seeing tunnel connection points between fortresses and any subterrenean FOV your civilization has relevant for travelling.
It's there to be expanded as features are expanded, at least. I'm not sure we'll get to tunnel connections at all before the map rewrite since redoing how the underground works is one of the main points of the map rewrite.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Regarding the early game stress fixes you posted about; How will the game handle a migrant who has family on the other side of the world, so he is immediately depressed due to missing family?
If I remember the stress science thread(s), and this part hasn't changed, missing needs in generally don't cause that much trouble stress-wise even though they were blaring alarms in the thoughts - though we still have a list of unmeetable needs we're hoping to look at when we start in on bugs, and now that we have the C screen up, there may be some way to address it. There's that specific thought for w.g. kidnapped people which is a separate matter as well.
Quote from: Mobbstar
A trade depot in 0.47.05 can hold several caravans simultaneously. When the player tries to trade, the UI asks which one to trade with. I don't recall seeing anything about this (admittedly niche) feature in the Premium devlogs and previews.
Can a trade depot in Premium still accept multiple caravans?
Immortal-D: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8370242#msg8370242
Ha ha, it has been a while, so I don't even remember. It would have been in the screen notes but this is exactly the kind of thing that makes up the end of Stage 1 on the roadmap. Lemmesee... doesn't look like it! Just a note to add it on the loop where it selects the active merchant. So yeah, must have been a day where I was just like "not another scrollbar..." and moved on. This was not uncommon. But I'm cleaning it all up now, along with choosing sizes for clothing and various other missing bits.
Quote from: voliol
These new animal people sprites have more variance in their body shapes than I remember from the ones shown earlier, though the two bird-men and insect-men seem to have the same base. Will they have support for showing actual worn clothing/armor where possible (i.e. the body because they all have unique heads and limbs)? Or will the brown tunic be the extent of their graphical wardrobe? Or some in-between where the tunic can be palette-swapped according to profession?
Edit: And apropos of the giant toad/toad man shown, do you have any plans for how to fix that bug of them not appearing in-game? Will the principle of creatures not just "spawning" but having to arrive from off-screen be broken, since ponds never cross the borders of the map?
We're trying to keep the number of body variants manageable for equipment purposes, yeah, though it remains to be seen whether the initial vanilla release will have equipment sets for every one of them.
Ah, I wasn't even aware of the giant toad/toad man problem, so I don't have plans for it. Seems like something that should be fixed though! We haven't done much with behavior of creatures in their environments so pond restrictions don't seem important to maintain for things like toad people.
Quote from: Nilsolm
Unless I missed it, we haven't seen any screenshots of the Classic/ASCII version yet. Any chance we can get a preview of what it will look like?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8370851#msg8370851
voliol has answered this one. It hasn't started yet. The general idea is to keep everything in one interface, which means replacing borders and such with ASCII glyphs, and (the more difficult part) buttons etc. with ASCII equivalents.
Post by: Su on May 01, 2022, 05:01:53 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 01, 2022, 06:02:11 pm
Ah, I wasn't even aware of the giant toad/toad man problem, so I don't have plans for it. Seems like something that should be fixed though! We haven't done much with behavior of creatures in their environments so pond restrictions don't seem important to maintain for things like toad people.
Thanks for the replies Toady!
Yeah, ponds and rivers and lake biomes are a bit weird in their own ways with how little the animals move/populate. I've made a suggestion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179796.0)thread about it directly inspired by the replies here.
in all our time on bay12, we don't think we've ever seen zack post to the main page. what brought that about?
Threetoe has contributed their stories before onto the frontpage so i don't think its too unusual personally, I just assume Toady's just insanely busy at the moment so its better to defer the responsibility.
Post by: Putnam on May 01, 2022, 06:44:40 pm
in all our time on bay12, we don't think we've ever seen zack post to the main page. what brought that about?
It's actually happened a few times, outside the aforementioned stories:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2018.html#2018-12-05
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2017.html#2017-07-13
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2016.html#2016-06-28
Post by: falcc on May 01, 2022, 09:22:00 pm
Post by: Bloodwarrior on May 03, 2022, 04:03:04 pm
1 will prophets have more functions in the myth and magic update depending on who they serve.
2 would it be possible when prophecies come out to proclaim your own.[/glow][/glow][/glow][/glow]
Post by: Siredeturtle on May 03, 2022, 06:59:20 pm
What can we expect from the Army Arc regarding adventure mode?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 04, 2022, 06:58:24 am
im going to put a question in for the next one.
1 will prophets have more functions in the myth and magic update depending on who they serve.
2 would it be possible when prophecies come out to proclaim your own.
Lime green so they're read please @Bloodwarrior.
About #1 Do you mean by the context of interpretation/actions they take to try and follow their gods direction? In the Bible, 'God' regularly intervened with the lives of the Disciples, going where they were directed by 'him' or whisked away abroad to spread Christianity faster and correct notions on his intentions to deviate from the set Abrahamic Judaic view of the faith (which i guess is a bit like travelling inside one DF religious sphere of nature, and ending up with a emphasis on trees on the related childtype on similar but different values).
Or uh, did you have something slightly more cultishly world-doom cataclysmic dramatic in mind?
I think Toady would have difficulty with that question on the first try to be honest, it took me a few re-edits of this post to try and understand it, if you could expand the question with a bit more detail that'd help.
To answer #2 abstractly, (genuine) prophets do technically already work as the middlemen to deliver religion to the non-believers, so when they have a mechanic to actually communicate with gods as actors (which is something im not entirely sure you need myth and magic to do, gods already "talk" with the mortal world through dice) it may be a thing to pursue in adventuremode once villian arc gets more fleshing out.
If you're a good persuader you can already sway people with the power of arguement on mundane topics through talking or writing very well, notably in fortress mode, priests can convert folks inside of temples burrowed there within listening distance when they deliver their sermons, so even if you make it up in adventuremode, you can in theory just choose a diety, and go prophiezing from there town to town with your persuader skill until people knock-on effect believe you. (if something like that ends up being implemented)
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on May 04, 2022, 11:34:30 am
Post by: Eric Blank on May 04, 2022, 01:45:31 pm
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on May 04, 2022, 02:03:26 pm
Toady has said in the past he doesn't want to release it directly because its content and function would inevitably become what people expect the DF mythgen system to be, and he wants freedom to essentially set up the df mythgen system separately, doing things that that generator can't do and otherwise not trying to emulate it
he has already shown it though, has he? i doubt people being able to play around with it themselves would shape the expectations people have of it to a point the gdc talk itself hasn't already
Post by: Bloodwarrior on May 04, 2022, 02:58:08 pm
im going to put a question in for the next one.
1 will prophets have more functions in the myth and magic update depending on who they serve.
2 would it be possible when prophecies come out to proclaim your own.
Lime green so they're read please @Bloodwarrior.
About #1 Do you mean by the context of interpretation/actions they take to try and follow their gods direction? In the Bible, 'God' regularly intervened with the lives of the Disciples, going where they were directed by 'him' or whisked away abroad to spread Christianity faster and correct notions on his intentions to deviate from the set Abrahamic Judaic view of the faith (which i guess is a bit like travelling inside one DF religious sphere of nature, and ending up with a emphasis on trees on the related childtype on similar but different values).
Or uh, did you have something slightly more cultishly world-doom cataclysmic dramatic in mind?
I think Toady would have difficulty with that question on the first try to be honest, it took me a few re-edits of this post to try and understand it, if you could expand the question with a bit more detail that'd help.
To answer #2 abstractly, (genuine) prophets do technically already work as the middlemen to deliver religion to the non-believers, so when they have a mechanic to actually communicate with gods as actors (which is something im not entirely sure you need myth and magic to do, gods already "talk" with the mortal world through dice) it may be a thing to pursue in adventuremode once villian arc gets more fleshing out.
If you're a good persuader you can already sway people with the power of arguement on mundane topics through talking or writing very well, notably in fortress mode, priests can convert folks inside of temples burrowed there within listening distance when they deliver their sermons, so even if you make it up in adventuremode, you can in theory just choose a diety, and go prophiezing from there town to town with your persuader skill until people knock-on effect believe you. (if something like that ends up being implemented)
sorta like actually communicate like give quests like talking to npc do or gods visiting
Post by: Fikilili on May 05, 2022, 07:45:45 am
1. With the arrival of the Steam version and the ever growing list of to-be-added features in the Bay12 Development log, do you still feel like you'll be able to one day complete the game? Don't you feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of work it represents, or do you really think you have the time to polish it/finish it completely before... Well, anything unfortunate happens to you?
2. If you and Threetoe were to leave the game unfinished, who would take the lead and keep its development? Would you leave DF to the community like ID Software did with Doom? Or will someone else keep developing it, albeit, in a different form?
Don't interpret my questions as mean spirited, but this last decade has been chokeful of artists who left us or abandoned their work without finishing it, so the slow but steady development of DF sometimes worries me. Although don't worry, I have faith in the two of you.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on May 06, 2022, 06:10:04 am
Post by: tiresius on May 06, 2022, 05:47:13 pm
Post by: BlueManedHawk on May 07, 2022, 02:26:08 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 07, 2022, 05:40:04 am
What is the "shrouded history" mentioned in the prefstring of kobold bulbs?
Is there a matrix/spreadsheet screen planned that has skills in columns with rows being dwarves? Many city builders based on DF have this type of screen to quickly isolate/find which citizens are the best at things and it would help build initial militaries and finding the best gem setter in the fortress when needed.
Why are fluffy wamblers immune to fevers, despite vermin not getting affected by fevers in the first place?
Lime in all please.
2# closest you have is 3rd party utilities like dwarf therapist that with a bit of tweaking should still work, but i dont recall seeing a chart per-say in the release images. The main thing to follow through on is the general numbers at the top telling you how many are in that mood (which i suppose without arrows now flagging the visibly, maybe the chart would be welcome). DFhack might be able to work with the categories though if smileyfaces are clearly set up with data-flags, as you can make it effectively filtrate on 47.05-r5 latest version to any-such criteria like all male members of your fortress being only shown on the units screen.
#1 & #3, ill be honest i think its one of those things only Toady or Zach can answer in part to "in game worldbuilding lore/logic" :D
Post by: voliol on May 08, 2022, 11:59:51 am
And also, has the title screen been finished?
Post by: Buttery_Mess on May 08, 2022, 10:51:39 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on May 09, 2022, 01:50:22 am
With the map rewrite, will you be taking a stab at improved hydrology? Specifically I'm thinking of tides, oceans that don't freeze solid every night, and perhaps icebergs? Will geysers ever be a feature?
Wanna make your question lime green so Toady knows its directed at him. Oceans that dont freeze solid was definitely one intended feature thats been brought up since literally the inception of the game. Icebergs and geysers Im not sure ive heard about specifically. Tides, who knows, im not sure ive seen a game simulate tidal action before. Waves, sure, we have those now, but the tides rising and falling over the course of the day ive never seen done before
Post by: Buttery_Mess on May 09, 2022, 11:56:16 am
With the map rewrite, will you be taking a stab at improved hydrology? Specifically I'm thinking of tides, oceans that don't freeze solid every night, and perhaps icebergs? Will geysers ever be a feature?
Wanna make your question lime green so Toady knows its directed at him. Oceans that dont freeze solid was definitely one intended feature thats been brought up since literally the inception of the game. Icebergs and geysers Im not sure ive heard about specifically. Tides, who knows, im not sure ive seen a game simulate tidal action before. Waves, sure, we have those now, but the tides rising and falling over the course of the day ive never seen done before
Thanks for the reminder to make it lime green! With the possibility of one or more moons being procedurally generated, it would be interesting to see tides being properly generated as a result.
Post by: Kat on May 15, 2022, 07:32:30 am
Are user-definable clothing items something that might be implemented ?
What I mean by this is... I have a modded beastman race, they have horns. I'd like to be able to create clothing (and/or jewellery) that they could wear on their horns. So, being able to define new bits of clothing with a token like[WORN_ON_BODY_PART:HORN], would be ideal for me.
Post by: voliol on May 18, 2022, 03:09:15 am
For that matter, what about Legends mode? It was also included in point 5 of the roadmap, but as something closer to being finished, with only (?) the maps left to be done. Were those maps among the screens that were done this past month? It would be nice to be able to say ”Fortress and Legends modes, maybe Adventure and ASCII modes” instead of ”Fortress and maybe Legends, Adventure and ASCII modes” when people ask what’s coming in the (initial) Steam release.
Post by: gchristopher on May 18, 2022, 04:35:31 pm
Quote from: Toady One
I've spent the last some days updating tracks and rollers and stops.
Will there be changes to cart/track physics or build possibilities? e.g. Impulse ramps are a bug, but a wonderful one that'd be sad to lose without a replacement. Lots of current cart engineering relies on deep understanding of derailment and checkpoint effects. (Which has both good and bad aspects.) Will anything change mechanically?
Post by: Buttery_Mess on May 19, 2022, 07:36:52 pm
Are starting scenarios/goals incoming in the near or long term?
Does the Steam release include a new intro movie?
Will the Steam release include new music? If so, has the music been made yet?
Will the Steam release include any sound (even if it's just menu clicks or something)? If not, will there be plans to include sounds in the future?
Post by: Mr Crabman on May 20, 2022, 03:57:17 am
1. Have the tutorials been finalised? Do they cover everything?
Are starting scenarios/goals incoming in the near or long term?
Will the Steam release include new music? If so, has the music been made yet?
The tutorials haven't been started yet, there's still a little more to do with the menus.
Starting scenarios are very long term; they come after the myth&magic update.
Yes, the Steam release does have new music, and a decent bit it seems; at first we were told it's one track for every season, plus a "death spiral" track, but more recently Toady said the composer's given him some extra, and that there is more on the way:
Legends, more seasonal stuff, caverns, battles... and there's more coming, ha ha.
Post by: teh sam on May 20, 2022, 09:42:20 pm
Post by: Tachytaenius on May 23, 2022, 09:50:19 am
How is exhaustion from firing a crossbow calculated? I know it uses attributes but what's the exact equation for what gets added to the counter value?
Many thanks for bringing DF into the world and apologies for the minor derailment
Post by: Urist McSadist on May 26, 2022, 07:05:17 am
2.Will cage traps be nerfed before magic?
3.After the magic update, will there be more generic effects? As an example, could there be a spell that turns you into an animal and lets you pick which one?
4.I remember seeing a generated myth where the goblins were a cursed version of the dwarves. How exactly does that work?
Post by: BlueManedHawk on May 26, 2022, 02:32:50 pm
Post by: falcc on May 27, 2022, 09:26:26 am
Post by: voliol on May 27, 2022, 10:23:51 am
What gameplay value does it add to have so many different kinds of stone, wood, vermin, gems, etc. when most of them are, for many practical purposes, exactly the same? How does this help to make the game more fun?
It adds to the flavor, which is arguably separate from pure gameplay, but also contributes to an enjoyable experience. Stuff like setting red tourmalines in the eyes of your volcano god statue, and indigo tourmalines in the one of the night goddess, is fun.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 27, 2022, 10:48:56 am
What gameplay value does it add to have so many different kinds of stone, wood, vermin, gems, etc. when most of them are, for many practical purposes, exactly the same? How does this help to make the game more fun?
It adds to the flavor, which is arguably separate from pure gameplay, but also contributes to an enjoyable experience. Stuff like setting red tourmalines in the eyes of your volcano god statue, and indigo tourmalines in the one of the night goddess, is fun.
There are modifications that set out to streamline things like this though, as with a bit of clever editing you can route the products of animals/people to a generic type (takes technical effort, commonly creature variations or CV's for short) and simplified wood/metals more broadly displayed without really affecting their impact aesthetically, like converting all appletree logs into "hardwood"
Post by: BlueManedHawk on May 27, 2022, 04:39:33 pm
What gameplay value does it add to have so many different kinds of stone, wood, vermin, gems, etc. when most of them are, for many practical purposes, exactly the same? How does this help to make the game more fun?
It adds to the flavor, which is arguably separate from pure gameplay, but also contributes to an enjoyable experience. Stuff like setting red tourmalines in the eyes of your volcano god statue, and indigo tourmalines in the one of the night goddess, is fun.
But that is valuable to gameplay, because color is a significant, albeit minor, change. However, in many cases, there aren't even significant differences like that.
[Snipped from above.]
There are modifications that set out to streamline things like this though, as with a bit of clever editing you can route the products of animals/people to a generic type (takes technical effort, commonly creature variations or CV's for short) and simplified wood/metals more broadly displayed without really affecting their impact aesthetically, like converting all appletree logs into "hardwood"
What are those modifications? Also, surely there must be some stuff that they can't simplify because it's hardcoded, right?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 27, 2022, 06:48:09 pm
[Snipped from above.]
There are modifications that set out to streamline things like this though, as with a bit of clever editing you can route the products of animals/people to a generic type (takes technical effort, commonly creature variations or CV's for short) and simplified wood/metals more broadly displayed without really affecting their impact aesthetically, like converting all appletree logs into "hardwood"
What are those modifications? Also, surely there must be some stuff that they can't simplify because it's hardcoded, right?
Yeah there's stuff that regular modding and RAW token ingenuity has to methodically put together (which is the majority of accessibility to the mentioned systems), but advancements though DFhack are always slightly lifting the roof, such as the ability to tie up scripts to custom tokens rather than execute them seperately are making the modding scene faster in small increments, though its not a popular rollout yet.
Probably unreliably asking for specific sources is going to mean ill have to remember off the top of my head, there was 1 very good comprehensive material mod in the masterwork modification that simplified wood and a few other things (to make up for adding a lot of other stuff) and brolol's dog mod has the example im thinking of for animals, for a 'catch-all' animal being the source of a lot referenced products, (dog meat, dog hide, instead of beagle meat, poodle bones etc) while a script ensures it doesn't end up in the worldgen food-chain.
Post by: voliol on May 28, 2022, 02:29:55 am
Post by: EuchreJack on May 28, 2022, 08:45:44 am
Post by: ZM5 on May 28, 2022, 08:53:30 am
Post by: squamous on May 28, 2022, 03:04:22 pm
Post by: WereDragon on May 30, 2022, 02:19:47 pm
Why do dragons take 1000 years to mature? They don’t typically survive that long in worldgen and actually breeding them in dwarf mode seems… slow. It just seems odd when compared to rocs 20 years to max size.
Are there any plans for minor raw changes before the steam update? Basically stuff like animal men into animal people. For clarity between a porcupine animal men man and a porcupine animal man woman as an example
Post by: clinodev on May 30, 2022, 05:03:57 pm
As you're looking at difficulty options, what changes are planned for necromancers?
Post by: LuuBluum on May 30, 2022, 09:20:52 pm
There's a pretty good current reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/v0vsi1/necromancer_towers_should_be_nerfed/?depth=10) about problems with how necromancers work now.On this specifically, would it be worthwhile to both make having any sort of undead affiliation (necromancer and undead both) more implicitly hostile to living entities, and also for living undead/necromancer-created monsters to better purge their preexisting affiliations to be more implicitly hostile? I definitely noticed in my campaigns way too many flavors of undead something-or-others milling about casually, which doesn't seem quite right.
As you're looking at difficulty options, what changes are planned for necromancers?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on May 31, 2022, 01:55:02 am
Why does the line that says “Forming lakes…” change to “Forming lakes and minerals…”? What is going on there? I’ve searched both the wiki and the forums, but I can’t seem to find an answer.
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 31, 2022, 08:29:56 am
Maybe its too soon to say with the changes to nobles but: Regarding there are 2 types of nobles, [ELECTED] and [LAND_HOLDER] (occasionally a modded instance will mix the two) do [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] & [ELECTED] individuals such as mayors still count towards the caravan changes if you wanted a 'Republic' kind of fortress playstyle or wanted to stall nobles from appearing through conversing with the outpost liason.
Post by: LuuBluum on May 31, 2022, 10:40:38 am
On that same note, do you think there would be enough time to work in seasons for aboveground crops, to keep them on-par with the belowground ones?
Post by: voliol on May 31, 2022, 01:32:36 pm
1. Can you assign non-wearable/non-carryable items to nobles, like furniture, and what happens then? Do they want them in their rooms, or is any deeper functionality left for a more thorough look at nobles at a later point in time (starting scenarios?).
2. Can you assign multiple items to the same position? Like a royal amulet and a royal scepter? Or is the idea that the item is a proof of identity, thereby making multiple items redundant/tricky to deal with?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on May 31, 2022, 02:37:00 pm
Post by: Su on May 31, 2022, 04:04:47 pm
how are keyboard users going to access this information? i'm becoming increasingly worried that keyboard support is going to become a second-class citizen, with controls going unshown and features becoming outright unavailable without the use of a mouse.
on an arguably more positive note - is there an official link to the updated roadmap? it sounds like things are nearing completion.
What, exactly, is meant by “irritation” in the most recent devlog? At first, I read it as “irrigation” but then I noticed it was actually “irritation” and now I’m confused…
i assume this is going to be some measure of how much you've changed the area by digging, chopping down trees, and / or killing wildlife.
Post by: BrythonLexi on May 31, 2022, 08:55:17 pm
What is presented publicly is that generated sites keep track of what they produce every week, such as milking or woodcrafting. I would like to know details of how this affects the world in general, but particularly:
- Items that adventurers are able to see and purchase in market stalls and shops of human towns, and trade depots of dwarven fortresses. Do those, and/or the existence of particular shops in general, get affected by such production?
- Caravans received in Fortress Mode. Are the products of those relevant civs generated spontaneously based on player need, or resource production and availability of the civilization sending merchants?
- Do those weekly production cycles continue post world-generation? For this question, that includes the 2 weeks between embarks/adventures, during Fortress Mode, and during Adventure Mode?
I imagine a "No" answer to mean that the items that exist at the end of world generation are all that will ever exist in Adventure Mode - that clearing a Mead Hall of items, then playing 10 years of a fortress, then returning to that Mead Hall in a new adventurer would still result in an empty Mead Hall.
For some reason, this loop of world generation regarding production and trade is something that has been keeping me thinking. If you wish to provide those details, it would mean a lot to learn how it works behind the hood, and what the consequences are for the rest of the game post-generation.
Post by: Bumber on June 01, 2022, 01:52:40 am
Quote
In adventure mode, the visible tile flag is the 5th bit. It cohabitates with some of the dwarf mode digging stuff to save room. Since I think the dwarf hidden flag might be if you ever saw it, not if you currently see it, where a new flag was needed.
Would you mind sharing what any of the other overlapping flags are?
Post by: Inarius on June 01, 2022, 03:00:21 am
It's been something like years, (maybe 2014 ?) last time you did this.
I personnally like this way, but i wondered if there was a specific reason for this sudden change ?
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 01, 2022, 03:45:32 am
Is there a reason you are going back to giving us twice-a-week instead of once-every-two-weeks news on bay12games dev blog ?
It's been something like years, (maybe 2014 ?) last time you did this.
I personnally like this way, but i wondered if there was a specific reason for this sudden change ?
Steam release is a big event. Im sure they can answer this well enough themselves but there's a lot riding on this so the Tarn brothers are on their A-game to ensure it goes well. The funds crucially will be going towards Zach's surgery if i remember correctly of a melenoma on his nose and ensuring the game's future security.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 01, 2022, 04:02:08 am
What, exactly, is meant by “irritation” in the most recent devlog? At first, I read it as “irrigation” but then I noticed it was actually “irritation” and now I’m confused…
i assume this is going to be some measure of how much you've changed the area by digging, chopping down trees, and / or killing wildlife.
Without trying to overhype it, making secondary forts beneath your first one probably will need to be a quieter affair.
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-25-2016/GiWiJY.gif)
Post by: Inarius on June 01, 2022, 07:17:35 am
Is there a reason you are going back to giving us twice-a-week instead of once-every-two-weeks news on bay12games dev blog ?
It's been something like years, (maybe 2014 ?) last time you did this.
I personnally like this way, but i wondered if there was a specific reason for this sudden change ?
Steam release is a big event. Im sure they can answer this well enough themselves but there's a lot riding on this so the Tarn brothers are on their A-game to ensure it goes well. The funds crucially will be going towards Zach's surgery if i remember correctly of a melenoma on his nose and ensuring the game's future security.
yeah, but Steam release is on the table for quite a long time, and it actually even slowed dev blogs (from 1/Week to 1/2 weeks) so i don't see any link between the two.
I just wondered. After all it's the role of this topic. But maybe there is not real answer, and i'm fine with this, too !
Post by: Eric Blank on June 01, 2022, 12:18:48 pm
Like goblin sieges, can their demands be satisfied?
And on the topic of goblin sieges, does the new artifact demand happen every time or will they give up on making demands and just attack you after a while?
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 01, 2022, 01:40:03 pm
Are animal man tribes going to attack in an ambusher style raids, and if so, what are their objectives? To steal items, kill dwarves, or annihilate our fort?
Question in a similar vein: 1) Will animal-tribe irritables defined by [LAYER_LINKED] have any soft supportive additions to make them more than a enviromental hazard (maybe even playable on the level of a normal civ)?
2)'ly is the irritation global amongst all underground dwellers, or will the player be taking the Ire of a particular group.
Currently [SUBTERREANEAN LINKED] has mixed pro's & cons, (free layer animals, nobody knows who you are, not even yourself since you're not a civ), I can imagine once the update comes in, modders might want to upgrade the tribe people to less primitive forms (and attempt to emulate them). Its definitely appealing, as the only otherwise thematic entrance of underground dwellers currently appears by a disaster, which is workable for modding means but not always optimal.
Post by: Toady One on June 01, 2022, 06:59:29 pm
Quote
Quote from: Suin all our time on bay12, we don't think we've ever seen zack post to the main page. what brought that about?Quote from: InariusIs there a reason you are going back to giving us twice-a-week instead of once-every-two-weeks news on bay12games dev blog ?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371175#msg8371175
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371178#msg8371178
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8378420#msg8378420
Inarius (op2): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8378440#msg8378440
We realized late that since Zach has been playing so intently lately, he can start posting his experiences while I was stuck in menu rewrites I was having trouble posting regularly about. Of course, around that time, my side picked up as well, so now we have a bunch of logs.
Quote from: Bloodwarrior
1 will prophets have more functions in the myth and magic update depending on who they serve.
2 would it be possible when prophecies come out to proclaim your own.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371744#msg8371744
Bloodwarrior (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371842#msg8371842
Ha ha, this is all very possible. Gods are going to be a big part of the update, for worlds that have them (and probably those that don't, though not so magically). The prophecies as they stand are a little strange, since I was using them to test a new language structure, but this is good, since you'll probably end up with something like the image creator to design your prophecy ha ha.
Quote from: Siredeturtle
In the past I remember mentions of adventurer-conquerors and government positions as a possible part of the upcoming Army Arc (the later being possible already with a little dialogue trick, but not very satisfying). After a long time and the current developments in the Steam version, my question is:
What can we expect from the Army Arc regarding adventure mode?
The development page is still current here - we're planning to add an adventure mode portion to the army arc, and the dev page currently has "Gaining civ-level entity positions (e.g. baron) by reputation or intrigue", "Basic command of large armies on travel-scale map", "Giving local combat orders to companions", and "Medical improvements". We haven't hit the details on it yet, and it's going to intersect heavily with the finishing of the villains release part of adventure mode, since you'll be able to command your lieutenants and such there. What I don't really expect is a lot of site administration - the worldgen sites just aren't that interesting since the economy turns off when worldgen ends. Some army raising and such, very likely, but not the actual responsibilities of each position - those will have to come in as their mechanics are intersected in later developments.
Quote from: GOTOTOTOE
in your gdc 2016 talk, you showed off the creation myth generator that seemed to be a generally separate program from dwarf fortress proper (assumably to be reintegrated into df when myths starts development). would you be cool with sharing it for the community to get a taste of myths long before it comes out or would this fall under code being shared? i would personally just like to play around with it since worldbuildings fun but i can definitely see how it conflicts with the "no code sharing" policy.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371829#msg8371829
GOTOTOTOE (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371833#msg8371833
Yeah, don't really have anything to add to Eric Blank's reply here.
Quote from: Fikilili
Not entirely game related, but I've had this question living rent free in my head since the unfortunate and tragic death of Kentaro Miura, who left us with his unfinished magnum opus.
1. With the arrival of the Steam version and the ever growing list of to-be-added features in the Bay12 Development log, do you still feel like you'll be able to one day complete the game? Don't you feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of work it represents, or do you really think you have the time to polish it/finish it completely before... Well, anything unfortunate happens to you?
2. If you and Threetoe were to leave the game unfinished, who would take the lead and keep its development? Would you leave DF to the community like ID Software did with Doom? Or will someone else keep developing it, albeit, in a different form?
Don't interpret my questions as mean spirited, but this last decade has been chokeful of artists who left us or abandoned their work without finishing it, so the slow but steady development of DF sometimes worries me. Although don't worry, I have faith in the two of you.
1. I'm not sure I've ever felt like I'd complete it. Always more to do! But that means it's not really overwhelming either. Polish is the same way - the Steam release will represent a big milestone for DF polish, and who knows what the future holds there as we continue to add things, other than a new minimum bar being set that we have to meet.
2. I have no idea, and it's not really up to us unless we specifically bring people on while the source is closed. There won't be any point making plans about this kind of thing until we see what happens with the Steam release. It's impossible to decide until we know what the situation is.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
What is the "shrouded history" mentioned in the prefstring of kobold bulbs?
Threetoe: "The key word is shrouded."
Quote from: tiresius
Is there a matrix/spreadsheet screen planned that has skills in columns with rows being dwarves? Many city builders based on DF have this type of screen to quickly isolate/find which citizens are the best at things and it would help build initial militaries and finding the best gem setter in the fortress when needed.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8372390#msg8372390
It's not planned currently. The work details and other changes are working well enough for most purposes, and I'm not satisfied with a giant 200x80 spreadsheet as something new players have to interact with. As something players can opt into, it's probably fine, but I won't have time to do anything like that for the first release while so much stuff is outstanding.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
Why are fluffy wamblers immune to fevers, despite vermin not getting affected by fevers in the first place?
Ha ha, I have no idea. Future proofing? Copy-paste oversight? If it isn't just copy-pasted, I do try to keep the critters roughly in line with how we think about them, and I certainly don't want fluffy wamblers to be deathly ill, even if I can't stop people from throwing them at megabeasts.
Quote from: voliol
Last December you answered you did not know what would happen with the ASCII intro animation going forward. Has its future been cleared out by now? If not, where does figuring it out land on the road map, roughly?
And also, has the title screen been finished?
Ha ha, you answered your question pretty much - we haven't finished the title screen, but when we do, it'll be in or out. As usual, many things are just happening to moment they come up, since there's so much to do.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With the map rewrite, will you be taking a stab at improved hydrology? Specifically I'm thinking of tides, oceans that don't freeze solid every night, and perhaps icebergs? Will geysers ever be a feature?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8372673#msg8372673
Buttery_Mess (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8372764#msg8372764
Yeah, Eric Blank is correct - we'd really like to get the freezing stuff fixed, and whatever else we can grab would also be nice. Tides would be cool but it's a hard problem just to have the water move up and down one level smoothly without causing CPU terror, and it's probably just bad all around to try and do it on the fort mode timescale.
Quote from: Kat
I have a question, mostly to do with things that would be beneficial for creating mods, not entirely sure how useful they'd be for normal gameplay though.
Are user-definable clothing items something that might be implemented ?
What I mean by this is... I have a modded beastman race, they have horns. I'd like to be able to create clothing (and/or jewellery) that they could wear on their horns. So, being able to define new bits of clothing with a token like[WORN_ON_BODY_PART:HORN], would be ideal for me.
It would be cool. It's complicated to make things more details though, and the clothing generally feels sort of silly sometimes, because of the amount of calculation that has to go on just to get people to choose their clothing properly. I'd like to do something sometime though. I just noted while playing around the other day that amulets are worn on the head even though we have necks now, and I thought about a simple version of your suggestion, looked at the clothing code and was like, "well, some other time..." We'll have to see.
Quote from: voliol
Are you more decided on the issue of Adventure/ASCII mode making it in the initial Steam/itch.io release, or is that still up in the air?
For that matter, what about Legends mode? It was also included in point 5 of the roadmap, but as something closer to being finished, with only (?) the maps left to be done. Were those maps among the screens that were done this past month? It would be nice to be able to say ”Fortress and Legends modes, maybe Adventure and ASCII modes” instead of ”Fortress and maybe Legends, Adventure and ASCII modes” when people ask what’s coming in the (initial) Steam release.
The maps are still missing, but Legends mode is fit for its primary purpose. You can look at all the main pages and pop between them with the hyperlinks, and the age chronology is there.
Currently we are leaning toward a graphical Fort mode release - the community votes went solidly that way (about 2:1 as I recall), and the money situation is now slightly worrying though probably okay. It seems like a first good fort release then doing followups would be prudent and what people want us to do. As people know, I'm a big adv mode proponent (it's slowly becoming what the original draglay/armok were shooting for), but I don't think doing a series of releases will hurt anything, and fort mode is plenty of game. It's just a little weird to not have it there to start, for Boatmurdered etc. purposes.
The ASCII part is theoretically faster to do, and I haven't discounted it as a possibility yet - but if I get stuck in a morass of graphics-ASCII button conversions that are trickier than I imagined, it won't help our current releaselessness and the possible problems it is causing. It also seems like something we can do after people have a big chunk of game in their hands.
Quote from: gchristopher
Will there be changes to cart/track physics or build possibilities? e.g. Impulse ramps are a bug, but a wonderful one that'd be sad to lose without a replacement. Lots of current cart engineering relies on deep understanding of derailment and checkpoint effects. (Which has both good and bad aspects.) Will anything change mechanically?
Ha ha, I'm somewhat aware of the oddities and have thus far decided to just leave it since it's possible to get there stuck there for a long while. When Roadmap Stage 3 (the focus on bugs) begins, we might address some bits but yeah, I generally don't think we should remove fun/useful bugs if we don't replace them with new systems (e.g. quantum stockpiles.) And adding new systems is more dangerous as we get closer to release.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
1. Have the tutorials been finalised? Do they cover everything?
Are starting scenarios/goals incoming in the near or long term?
Does the Steam release include a new intro movie?
Will the Steam release include new music? If so, has the music been made yet?
Will the Steam release include any sound (even if it's just menu clicks or something)? If not, will there be plans to include sounds in the future?
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8375491#msg8375491
Mr Crabman addressed much of this. Tutorials not finalized - I've added a pile of tooltips, I'm going to do instructional popups, and then we'll see if we feel like we need something more interactive or step by step. Because of the procedural geography of play maps, it's complicated to support in-depth tutorials (we either need a premade map, which has several major issues, or a reactive-to-your-genned-map tutorial, which is probably impossible to safeguard), but if they are needed, we'll have to do something.
Haven't made a new movie. It's beyond my capabilities to embed something graphical there, even if I had the file sitting there.
Music is in progress!
We have some sounds so far, but not many. I'm hoping for more, and shouldn't have an issue supporting them if we get them together.
Quote from: Tachytaenius
Hey, I was told I could ask a specific science question in this thread if all else failed, so...
How is exhaustion from firing a crossbow calculated? I know it uses attributes but what's the exact equation for what gets added to the counter value?
Many thanks for bringing DF into the world and apologies for the minor derailment
Exertion is just 20 points it looks like, and then that interacts with attributes when it actually has effects like falling over. The firing delay is 80 but then it rolls several dice, and if they are less than your skill, it takes off 8 points each. The dice are 0-2,5,7,15,100.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Once bows and crossbows will get proper arcs, will modders have the option to keep the current firing lines for things like guns?
2.Will cage traps be nerfed before magic?
3.After the magic update, will there be more generic effects? As an example, could there be a spell that turns you into an animal and lets you pick which one?
4.I remember seeing a generated myth where the goblins were a cursed version of the dwarves. How exactly does that work?
1. Ha ha, I think there'll continue to be support for magical projectiles, so I think that's the case. And I'm not sure how bows and crossbows are going to work. Arcs there may end up be flirting with various AI/CPU/interface disasters.
2. This is quite possible, since they intersect very heavily with the siege improvement section of the army arc.
3. This also seems quite possible. One of the goals is to have more player control of vaguer effects.
4. In the prototype, certain 'evil' critters or categories are designated as possible curse outcomes, and it's generally for some major offense like rebellion against the gods. I expect post-prototype it will be more complicated.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
What gameplay value does it add to have so many different kinds of stone, wood, vermin, gems, etc. when most of them are, for many practical purposes, exactly the same? How does this help to make the game more fun?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8377424#msg8377424
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8377430#msg8377430
BlueManedHawk (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8377487#msg8377487
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8377506#msg8377506
I like having lots of stuff, and I think it helps with player story creation. I'd like to differentiate stuff more of course, especially the animals, but even without mechanical differentiation, I think it's still positive as long as the interfaces aren't overwhelmed (as they sometimes are.)
Quote from: falcc
When the second villain release is complete, what will the requirements be for a dwarf that dreams of ruling the world to be recognized as their dream having been achieved?
I guess they'd have to rule the world ha ha ha. Does that mean a successful puppet leading every civ? Maybe that's pushing it.
Quote from: voliol
Are the settings ThreeToe talked about in this devlog post the same as the ones in init.txt and d_init.txt, but with some more control over difficulty? Or will those settings have their own (in-game) menu?
It depends. There are three categories currently. World gen parameters (set before making a world), embark difficulty parameters (set on a per-fort basis, with settings persisting on unretire but not reclaim), and during-play settings from the to-be-written settings menu.
The current thinking is that difficulty triggers and such live at the per-fort level. Stuff like popcap, weather, temp, etc. that is more related to FPS/tech concerns will be in the during-play settings. Nothing should require messing with a txt file anymore, though it'll still read from there if you want to mess with it more permanently. If we have time, we'll add profiles you can save/load as well.
There's some question about whether certain difficulty settings like wave caps are more of a difficulty or FPS concern. Right now those live at per-fort, but things may get moved around.
Quote from: EuchreJack
When buying off Goblins with an Artifact, do original books count?
They use the villain rules right now, which cut out books. Hopefully we can have scholarly villans and rulers in the future that emphasize their book collections. Then it would be amusing to try to pass off a copy, especially if you copy it after the siegers arrive and make the demand.
Quote from: ZM5
I can't remember if this has been asked before or not - but in regards to the music, is there gonna be support for situational music changes? I.e megabeast fight or siege in fort mode (maybe different tracks depending on the megabeast or sieging faction, same for adventure mode megabeast/night creature fights), fading out when shifting back to "peace" mode?
There'll be a certain number of triggers, yeah, though I'll probably only have time to add them at first for situations for which the vanilla game has a track. Once we can say more about the music, we'll know how many vanilla triggers there are, but that's all still in progress as everybody is finishing up their respective stuff.
Quote from: squamous
Are there any factors besides ethical differences that impact the size of a civ's armies and/or war frequency? I've been genning a large humans-only world with multiple civs of differing ethics and I've noticed there seems to be a lot less fighting than what the population of civilizations should lead to, and I wonder if there might be any factors that I'm missing.
As for actual fighting, the personality of the leaders matter as I recall (excitement, confidence, ambition, deliberation), and the differences in population. They make a risk roll based on those.
Quote from: WereDragon
Do undead peasants still show up in sieges? If not, why? If so, why dont they outnumber the actual soldiers considering necromancers probably shouldn’t be sending all soldiers when they’re primarily taking hamlets down.
Why do dragons take 1000 years to mature? They don’t typically survive that long in worldgen and actually breeding them in dwarf mode seems… slow. It just seems odd when compared to rocs 20 years to max size.
Are there any plans for minor raw changes before the steam update? Basically stuff like animal men into animal people. For clarity between a porcupine animal men man and a porcupine animal man woman as an example
I haven't changed this. They just hand out weapons to the undead pops, it doesn't remember any of their professions from real life unless they were a historical figure (and I don't recall if it uses that information.) And the necros don't have to source their weapons from anywhere, since we don't have economic data yet.
Long, long ago, I vaguely remember running worldgens 1000 years, though perhaps that era ended before dragons even grew. It's aspirational. And maybe after mythgen we'll get some longer numbers again, even if we can't run them all year by year. Of course, procedural dragons are also in there somewhere, then it won't mean anything.
I'm not sure what all I will get to during Stage 3. Some bugs and issues are more glaring, though I agree with the change, especially since in interviews/logs etc. we always call them animal people and basically never animal men. It is the proper name.
Quote
Quote from: clinodevThere's a pretty good current reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/v0vsi1/necromancer_towers_should_be_nerfed/?depth=10) about problems with how necromancers work now.
As you're looking at difficulty options, what changes are planned for necromancers?Quote from: LuuBluumOn this specifically, would it be worthwhile to both make having any sort of undead affiliation (necromancer and undead both) more implicitly hostile to living entities, and also for living undead/necromancer-created monsters to better purge their preexisting affiliations to be more implicitly hostile? I definitely noticed in my campaigns way too many flavors of undead something-or-others milling about casually, which doesn't seem quite right.
For difficulty we've just adjusted zombies to be more in-line with other siege ramp ups (which were also broken, but not as badly.) But this doesn't address the worldgen situation, or the adventure mode situation, from your thread. I'm not sure the former is a difficulty question exactly, and we aren't addresing adv mode yet. But there could be some more changes with the bug fixes since necros/undead do have various problems. Haven't looked at that closely yet.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
A quick question about world-gen…
Why does the line that says “Forming lakes…” change to “Forming lakes and minerals…”? What is going on there? I’ve searched both the wiki and the forums, but I can’t seem to find an answer.
It finishes the lakes, and then adds the minerals bit when it starts making the minerals ha ha. I guess I ran out of y space or something.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Quick question about the recent devlog
Maybe its too soon to say with the changes to nobles but: Regarding there are 2 types of nobles, [ELECTED] and [LAND_HOLDER] (occasionally a modded instance will mix the two) do [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] & [ELECTED] individuals such as mayors still count towards the caravan changes if you wanted a 'Republic' kind of fortress playstyle or wanted to stall nobles from appearing through conversing with the outpost liason.
The way the dialogue with the liaison works, when you cut off the nobles, you are opting out of ties with your civ, somewhat rebelliously. We haven't made it more complicated. You can mod out the nobles entirely and it should be fine. We'll need to do more complicated diplomacy etc. and really model the relationship to make it better, but we may not have time for that.
Quote from: LuuBluum
Since below-ground farming was changed, will we also see some changes to aboveground farming in a similar vein?
On that same note, do you think there would be enough time to work in seasons for aboveground crops, to keep them on-par with the belowground ones?
Aboveground farming is at least theoretically dangerous or requires the building of a wall, and we figured that was something. Shallow soil farming allowed you safety for no cost.
Ha ha, I have no idea what the seasons should be for all those plants. Probably don't have time for the research and data entry.
Quote from: voliol
I feel there will be/is a lot of questions this month, I hope I’m personally not overdoing it...
1. Can you assign non-wearable/non-carryable items to nobles, like furniture, and what happens then? Do they want them in their rooms, or is any deeper functionality left for a more thorough look at nobles at a later point in time (starting scenarios?).
2. Can you assign multiple items to the same position? Like a royal amulet and a royal scepter? Or is the idea that the item is a proof of identity, thereby making multiple items redundant/tricky to deal with?
1. It only lets you pick a sublist of holdable/wearable items, similar to the villian claim list. The symbolic side of it would only see the items for theft/recovery purposes anyway, so furniture would be wasted there as the code stands. We've just added a wear/hold function on top of that. You can always put furniture in their rooms of course. We haven't incorporated symbols into demands but that's something I can see spreading out into the old furniture demands and such too.
2. Yeah, you can assign as many as you want. They don't use them for identity purposes, but since faking identities is one of the few lies we are supporting/planning to support in the game, having multiple symbols should be fine as we get further into villainy.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
What, exactly, is meant by “irritation” in the most recent devlog? At first, I read it as “irrigation” but then I noticed it was actually “irritation” and now I’m confused…
Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8378287#msg8378287
Yeah, there's an irritation level for every underground feature. That's been true for a long time, but it was only used by forgotten beasts and there other bits there that made it not matter very much. Now it matters more tightly for forgotten beasts and also underground animal people. And there's an aboveground version.
Quote from: Su
the latest devpost says that the Z-screen has been removed and replaced with a tooltip.
how are keyboard users going to access this information? i'm becoming increasingly worried that keyboard support is going to become a second-class citizen, with controls going unshown and features becoming outright unavailable without the use of a mouse.
on an arguably more positive note - is there an official link to the updated roadmap? it sounds like things are nearing completion.
This may be the case. For instance, there are no keyboard cursors right now. People generally wanted 50 keypresses to be replaced by a few mouse clicks, and I don't think there were any general proponents of the keyboard in this case. There are some specific concerns, like with macros and stuff, but those would probably be better replaced by interactive blueprints etc. as in Factorio and etc. I'm all for hotkeys of course, and being able to pull up various information and get things selected quickly with the keyboard, but I've been leaning against replacement cursors and haven't heard a case for them. I've never seen a similar modern game use keyboard cursors, because it requires so many keypresses, something people have hated and mocked about DF for many years. And once we admit the mouse at all, wealth display being a hover etc. isn't a concern (although arguably it works as a hotkey for speed purposes.) But perhaps mouse use is a barrier generally for you - I haven't really heard from the keyboard-only side since they were the only side we'd been supporting to this point.
We haven't been updating a roadmap - it's just that one news post ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8354566#msg8354566 ). And we've only just gotten through the first part, with the big question being whether we first release after Stage 3 or 4 or 5 or 6.
Quote from: BrythonLexi
What is presented publicly is that generated sites keep track of what they produce every week, such as milking or woodcrafting. I would like to know details of how this affects the world in general, but particularly:
- Items that adventurers are able to see and purchase in market stalls and shops of human towns, and trade depots of dwarven fortresses. Do those, and/or the existence of particular shops in general, get affected by such production?
- Caravans received in Fortress Mode. Are the products of those relevant civs generated spontaneously based on player need, or resource production and availability of the civilization sending merchants?
- Do those weekly production cycles continue post world-generation? For this question, that includes the 2 weeks between embarks/adventures, during Fortress Mode, and during Adventure Mode?
I imagine a "No" answer to mean that the items that exist at the end of world generation are all that will ever exist in Adventure Mode - that clearing a Mead Hall of items, then playing 10 years of a fortress, then returning to that Mead Hall in a new adventurer would still result in an empty Mead Hall.
For some reason, this loop of world generation regarding production and trade is something that has been keeping me thinking. If you wish to provide those details, it would mean a lot to learn how it works behind the hood, and what the consequences are for the rest of the game post-generation.
It's a whole huge thing, way too big for what it does, so I can't really go into all of it here. There's a division of labor, lots of migration, the crops are tracked week by week, town expertise is tracked which results in the various shop divisions, and every resource and product is also tracked, including its source. This is why people in the market stalls in adv mode can yell about where the stuff comes from - all of those statements are factual.
As I recall, this includes not just all the purchaseable items in towns, but most of the furniture and food in buildings. If I recall, the dwarf forts only have beds in some of the bedrooms because their bed resource stockpile from worldgen had that many to provide. But of course there are a lot of cut corners too, especially for newer stuff - shrines for instance, with their statues and dice, are all generated rather than pulled from resource piles, and I believe that's also true of all doors.
Caravans are continuously arriving and new stuff isn't made, and it's a lot more stuff than the typical adventurer will grab, so their stuff all has to be generated. The goods do take local materials into consideration.
The weekly cycles stop after world gen. That's basically where I stopped way back during the caravan arc as far as I remember. Got world gen production in as a model for post world gen, but didn't start post world gen. And yeah, if you clear out the categories of objects that come from the worlgen stockpiles, they won't return.
Quote from: Bumber
Several months ago I asked a question about a tile flag check for adventure mode and got a reply:QuoteIn adventure mode, the visible tile flag is the 5th bit. It cohabitates with some of the dwarf mode digging stuff to save room. Since I think the dwarf hidden flag might be if you ever saw it, not if you currently see it, where a new flag was needed.
Would you mind sharing what any of the other overlapping flags are?
Yeah, 4 through 9. 4 is 'lit', 5 is 'visible', 6-8 are that green memory map thing, and 9 is 'original cave', which impacts what name is displayed at the bottom maybe, maybe some placement stuff too though I don't recall.
In dwarf mode, 5-9 are used for designations (digging and smoothing.) 4 is for stockpiles.
Quote
Quote from: Eric Blankso from the 5/30 devlog, if I'm reading it correctly it sounds like there are now settings to explicitly control forgotten beast attacks and what sounds like animal man tribe attacks. Are animal man tribes going to attack in an ambusher style raids, and if so, what are their objectives? To steal items, kill dwarves, or annihilate our fort?
Like goblin sieges, can their demands be satisfied?
And on the topic of goblin sieges, does the new artifact demand happen every time or will they give up on making demands and just attack you after a while?Quote from: FantasticDorfQuestion in a similar vein: 1) Will animal-tribe irritables defined by [LAYER_LINKED] have any soft supportive additions to make them more than a enviromental hazard (maybe even playable on the level of a normal civ)?
2)'ly is the irritation global amongst all underground dwellers, or will the player be taking the Ire of a particular group.
Currently [SUBTERREANEAN LINKED] has mixed pro's & cons, (free layer animals, nobody knows who you are, not even yourself since you're not a civ), I can imagine once the update comes in, modders might want to upgrade the tribe people to less primitive forms (and attempt to emulate them). Its definitely appealing, as the only otherwise thematic entrance of underground dwellers currently appears by a disaster, which is workable for modding means but not always optimal.
Underground animal people want to shoot you with poison darts and stab you and have their mounts and beasts chew you and things. There's no negotiation or theft as it stands. They've always been sort of evil and non-specific compared to the aboveground ones. And we don't have time to do anything complicated with playability or anything.
Irritation is measure for each layer of the fort separately, and I don't think there's more than one civ per layer locally, though I don't recall precisely how they divide space up.
Post by: Rumrusher on June 01, 2022, 11:56:53 pm
Currently we are leaning toward a graphical Fort mode release - the community votes went solidly that way (about 2:1 as I recall), and the money situation is now slightly worrying though probably okay. It seems like a first good fort release then doing followups would be prudent and what people want us to do. As people know, I'm a big adv mode proponent (it's slowly becoming what the original draglay/armok were shooting for), but I don't think doing a series of releases will hurt anything, and fort mode is plenty of game. It's just a little weird to not have it there to start, for Boatmurdered etc. purposes.Glad to see advmode is becoming what armok 1 was suppose to be, though kinda wonder how is the whole mouse changes with fort mode going to relate to adv mode? I know there some mouse control in the adventure mode's item crafting menus in the current build but like is the idea also to do away with keyboard controls also there? or is Adv mode going to have a mouse and keyboard set up like I can see some stuff that could be done with mouse like the painting and drawing designations but only mouse feels like it could lead to a different set of wrist and hand issues than the repeated keystrokes caused. like I'm down for more accessibility options with the mouse but I feel like removing keyboard controls would bring up a different set of accessibility issues.
-snip-
This may be the case. For instance, there are no keyboard cursors right now. People generally wanted 50 keypresses to be replaced by a few mouse clicks, and I don't think there were any general proponents of the keyboard in this case. There are some specific concerns, like with macros and stuff, but those would probably be better replaced by interactive blueprints etc. as in Factorio and etc. I'm all for hotkeys of course, and being able to pull up various information and get things selected quickly with the keyboard, but I've been leaning against replacement cursors and haven't heard a case for them. I've never seen a similar modern game use keyboard cursors, because it requires so many keypresses, something people have hated and mocked about DF for many years. And once we admit the mouse at all, wealth display being a hover etc. isn't a concern (although arguably it works as a hotkey for speed purposes.) But perhaps mouse use is a barrier generally for you - I haven't really heard from the keyboard-only side since they were the only side we'd been supporting to this point.
that all said I'm really glad you added in the means to retire forts to dwarf fortress toady, that open up playing fort mode in several different ways right down to being able to move in non dwarven folks into the fort outside of visitors and guest petitions, and as someone who mostly play adventure mode it pretty much granted me more time to check out that game mode for at least putting in adventurers to defend the place.
Post by: voliol on June 02, 2022, 01:16:28 am
Post by: DG on June 02, 2022, 04:30:25 am
Anyway, it's been ages since I chipped in, and things have stabilized on my end again for the first time in a while, so I've joined the Patreon. It's a shame that things need to get so bad for you before people like me are reminded to do our bit, but that's human nature. I'll buy it on steam, too, to bump up the numbers and hype at the time. The DF dream I had isn't as aligned as it once was, but the dream is still there and I'll wait years more. Once the dust settles on this release and its forced circumstances we'll have a clearer idea of what DF is and where it's going.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 02, 2022, 04:38:44 am
:I've been pestering you about keyboard support for years, and have ceased posting as I saw the keyboard support dropping coming, with halfhearted assurances that it would be kept as signs that it wouldn't, which this confirms, and Mouse Fortress is of no interest to me.Quote from: Suthe latest devpost says that the Z-screen has been removed and replaced with a tooltip.
how are keyboard users going to access this information? i'm becoming increasingly worried that keyboard support is going to become a second-class citizen, with controls going unshown and features becoming outright unavailable without the use of a mouse.
on an arguably more positive note - is there an official link to the updated roadmap? it sounds like things are nearing completion.
This may be the case. For instance, there are no keyboard cursors right now. People generally wanted 50 keypresses to be replaced by a few mouse clicks, and I don't think there were any general proponents of the keyboard in this case. There are some specific concerns, like with macros and stuff, but those would probably be better replaced by interactive blueprints etc. as in Factorio and etc. I'm all for hotkeys of course, and being able to pull up various information and get things selected quickly with the keyboard, but I've been leaning against replacement cursors and haven't heard a case for them. I've never seen a similar modern game use keyboard cursors, because it requires so many keypresses, something people have hated and mocked about DF for many years. And once we admit the mouse at all, wealth display being a hover etc. isn't a concern (although arguably it works as a hotkey for speed purposes.) But perhaps mouse use is a barrier generally for you - I haven't really heard from the keyboard-only side since they were the only side we'd been supporting to this point.
We haven't been updating a roadmap - it's just that one news post ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8354566#msg8354566 ). And we've only just gotten through the first part, with the big question being whether we first release after Stage 3 or 4 or 5 or 6.
:
There are a number of reasons for why keyboard support is important:
- Bulk usage: using a mouse is reasonably easy for newbies to use, provided the icons actually make sense (which is frequently not the case in general). However, keyboard shortcuts are a lot faster for heavy usage, once you've managed to memorize them. Dwarf Fortress was intended to be used for lots of hours.
- Medical 1: Lots of mouse usage (in particular click-hold-scoll menus and the like) put strain on the tendons that can lead to chronic inflammation. A horribly constructed commercial program that required this and didn't have any shortcuts that I had to use for days on end at work got me this problem.
- Medical 2: Some people simply have limited motor control for various reasons, making precision clicking difficult. Blind people can't even see where they're clicking (on the other hand, they probably won't be able to play the graphic DF version anyway, and the character version seems to be going the way of keyboard support)...
- An utterly horrible example of how not to implement a mouse interface is the Advanced World Gen painter: You can't see where the tip of the cursor actually is, have to leave the "map" to select paint parameters from the list, and then try to navigate back to the "map" and try to guess where the tile next to the one you modified previously is (as the "map" feedback to your changes are virtually non existent).
- Making DF into a clone of the clones of DF doesn't seem to be a good way to stand out.
- Keyboard cursors are useful for counting tiles. Try to do that reliably with a mouse... This can be particularly useful for third party tool interactions, but you may have reasons to count tiles to determine whether a location is within the same 16*16 or 48*48 block as something else.
- Designating the digging of a 100 Z level deep spiral staircase with a mouse? No thanks. Intelligent people currently do it with a macro currently. Selecting a "blueprint" from a huge drag-and-drop list 100 times (with different "blueprints" for each level to account for the spiral) is less than appealing, and so is trying to click on the correct tile and then drag-and-drop the correct construction for each tile of that staircase.
Post by: Uthimienure on June 02, 2022, 05:24:25 am
Post by: brewer bob on June 02, 2022, 05:43:15 am
I'll still be buying the Steam version to support the project.
Post by: clinodev on June 02, 2022, 05:48:47 am
Personally, I use mouse/touchpad as much as possible, with DFhack's much extended mouse support, but I'm seeing very real frustration amongmany of the folks who currently teach new players, answer questions, and make amazing game tools. The kind of people who are inevitably going to be teaching this next big wave of players with Premium to play the game -- or perhaps not so inevitably now? People who wait for the Classic release aren't going to be in the legion of eager teachers, alas, especially if Classic lags behind Premium.
Post by: voliol on June 02, 2022, 06:08:30 am
I wonder what could be a sensible solution? ...here is a suggestion thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179929.0).
Post by: scriver on June 02, 2022, 08:38:25 am
I was disappointed by these news. Whenever I play other games that makes me do a lot of stuff like DF does I miss how much more quickly and efficient I get things done in DF because everything is just a few rapid clicks away, and I don't have to manually select everything with my mouse. Even games like Rimworld (which was obviously strongly influenced by DF) where a mostly everything is keybound isn't as fast to navigate as DF is. When I play for example the Rimworld-like (like, really, really obviously based on Rimworld) Going Medieval the thing that bugs me the most is the lack of efficient keyboard shortcuts.
And then there's just the punctiliousness and meticulousitude of the keyboard marker in a tile-based game, the mouse just doesn't compare to how I can just press the → button five times and have the keyboard marker mark five more tiles, whereas with a mouse I have to carefully pay attention to how many squares I'm marking so I don't mistakenly mark too many or press the same tile several times because I mis-sight-evaluated where one tile and and the next one begins.
But more than anything, the thing that makes the DF control scheme as good as it is, is how it utilises both mouse and keyboard control so you get the good of both worlds. And I think the controls with inevitably be poorer for having lost the keyboard half, no matter how much better control it gains in the new mouse additions.
I don't want to be the old guy who gets too emotional over changes, and I'm prone to be too hyperbolic in my tone, so I tried to restrain my tone a little so I don't come off as too emotional. I don't think this is something that would stop be from playing DF, or getting the new version, but I do think this change will make the game less enjoyable for me.
Post by: Su on June 02, 2022, 11:18:01 am
adding mouse support is a worthy goal, but not at the expense of the keyboard.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on June 02, 2022, 01:00:39 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on June 02, 2022, 02:15:13 pm
Where it currently gets wonky is in like the trade/stocks menu and adventure character stats/skills displays, where you have one pair of keybinds to scroll through categories and one set to scroll down the list and another keypress in the adventure stats screen to switch tabs. Those would greatly benefit from mouse scroll bars and intelligently using the page up/ page down and up/down arrow keys to move down the list the player last clicked on, i.e. the category list if I clicked on a category or the specific items in that category if I clicked on that list. The best modern game UIs use both keyboard and mouse controls.
Post by: DG on June 02, 2022, 05:05:44 pm
*even if this whole forum cared it's dwarfed by the potential steam players.
Post by: SammyLiimex on June 03, 2022, 10:44:43 am
Does breaking into the caverns still essentially destroy your FPS? I remember the game losing a ton of FPS back in the day if you broke into them, and it was one of the reasons you didn't want to do that. Has this already been mitigated, and I am so stuck in my old ways that I never realized it? Will the steam release include performances fixes for these sorts of common FPS losses?
Post by: Su on June 03, 2022, 12:38:30 pm
Does breaking into the caverns still essentially destroy your FPS? I remember the game losing a ton of FPS back in the day if you broke into them, and it was one of the reasons you didn't want to do that. Has this already been mitigated, and I am so stuck in my old ways that I never realized it? Will the steam release include performances fixes for these sorts of common FPS losses?
use lime green to get toady's attention if this question is meant for him =]
i i break into the caverns in almost every fort eventually and haven't noticed any significant drop in fps, but that might just be me not paying enough attention.
Post by: Central Speaker Dan on June 03, 2022, 01:16:36 pm
I've played intermittently for many years, but never spent that long on any given fort, so I consider myself more of a casual dwarf fotress player, and a player more generally who prefers mouse over keyboard in most things. Dwarf fortress is not one of those things. I personally suspect that most players were happy with the idea that mouse support was being added to the existing keyboard options, for those who wanted it. I do not believe that anyone in the player base actually wanted to see keyboard support reduced in any way.
EDIT: Also, the Z-screen is an increadibly valuable tool that I use all the time. I hate to hear that it's gone in the Steam version.
On to an actual question:
The information provided about being able to change the difficulty settings (encounter triggers, wealth, etc.) on embark made me curious about two distinct things. The first was the changing of these setting during an active fort without having to go to save files. Even if this required the game to save, quit, relaunch, and reload, this would be a fantastic storytelling tool, one that is already heavily used by many DF storytellers.
My second thought/question extends on from the first... In the future, could we see these variabes being modified dynamically in the game itself?
This is slightly complex to explain the use-cases of, but I'll try to be conciese...
Certain collections of modifiers could be made and defined as 'Periods'. A 'Period of Peace' might start when there are no wars and most factions have good relations. This period would slightly nudge the conflict rate down by modifying the settings approapriately. Similarly, if relations between many factions are bad, but haven't yet resulted in war, a 'Period of Tension' might occur, which raises the likelyhood of certain kinds of hostilities, reduces the elf-enforced tree-cutting limit, theives are more common, etc. Finally, to continue the example, a 'Period of Conflict' might start when a large number of wars break out, or a lot of sites are conquered, increasing the likelyhood of raids, seiges, and other threats, before things eventually settle down again.
This could later be tied into the economics, job assignments and other systems, so that these things also vary, such as having more guards during a 'Period of Tension' and harsher prison sentances, and weapons and armor being in high demand during a 'Period of Conflict', making them more valuable as trade goods.
Obviously, this is a big, long term kind of thing that would need to be strong enough to be noticable, but also not so strong that it derails things too often. Balancing would be a nightmare.
I'm curious if this kind of abstracted mood or relations layer is something that you have considered, or your thoughts on it more generally?
Post by: SammyLiimex on June 03, 2022, 03:43:44 pm
Does breaking into the caverns still essentially destroy your FPS? I remember the game losing a ton of FPS back in the day if you broke into them, and it was one of the reasons you didn't want to do that. Has this already been mitigated, and I am so stuck in my old ways that I never realized it? Will the steam release include performances fixes for these sorts of common FPS losses?
use lime green to get toady's attention if this question is meant for him =]
i i break into the caverns in almost every fort eventually and haven't noticed any significant drop in fps, but that might just be me not paying enough attention.
Thank you, I changed it.
Post by: clinodev on June 04, 2022, 12:09:55 am
On to an actual question:
The information provided about being able to change the difficulty settings (encounter triggers, wealth, etc.) on embark made me curious about two distinct things. The first was the changing of these setting during an active fort without having to go to save files. Even if this required the game to save, quit, relaunch, and reload, this would be a fantastic storytelling tool, one that is already heavily used by many DF storytellers.
From recent private correspondence, many settings that are currently tucked away in text files, and the init settings specifically, are already included in internal menus, and changes made in those menus go into effect immediately, "[j]ust like any modern game pretty much".
This is super cool from a new player support perspective, as we'll be able to suggest people just drop their pop cap in the menu to 30 or 50 to forstall that early rush, and it'll go into effect without saving the fort and reloading, for instance!
Other things still have to be set at worldgen or per fort embark, though, and I don't have all that info.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 04, 2022, 06:57:49 am
More questions about the irritation mechanic: 1) Is it a behaviour attached to a token on a creature (such as all or some giant animals through CV's) or a always present enviromental hazard?
2) And does it apply to the naked wildnerness animalpeople as we know it already? (though i would be suprised if animalpeople aboveground were united into their own civ-group alongside subterrenean people given the extreme variety, much least that'd mean a expansion of the entity file, or some hardcoded function)
I dont want to get the idea that a sudden stampede of irritated rhinos can be misinterpreted as a pseudo-siege, but there is getting a slight perceptive disparity over what 'irritation' means and its participants with your ostrich example of mundane animals as a overall mechanic. But maybe im just overthinking it.
Post by: voliol on June 04, 2022, 07:13:26 am
Im not as perturbed by mouse support, or lack of keyboard support. Ill make my mind up on the systems closer to release on whether they suit me personally, but singularly a concern i will say is that consistent fotressmode game-speed might make mouse scrolling too slow to react to fast paced events such as asformentioned difficulty spikes from combat, werebeasts/(necromancer ghouls) etc without leaning on excessive amounts of pausing to take time to finely analyze what to do next.
[...]
Whether mouse or keyboard is slower at times (I believe it depends on what times, mouse is slower than hotkeys, but faster than a keyboard cursor), this should not pose a problem as long as the player can pause/unpause at any time.
Post by: brewer bob on June 04, 2022, 07:33:13 am
From recent private correspondence, many settings that are currently tucked away in text files, and the init settings specifically, are already included in internal menus, and changes made in those menus go into effect immediately, "[j]ust like any modern game pretty much".
This reminded me of a question I wanted to ask:
With the internal menus for the settings coming, will we still be able to change the settings in d_init.txt, init.txt and other such files? I'm personally more comfortable with editing the settings with a text editor, so I'm curious to know if this option will still be available.
Post by: Pillbo on June 04, 2022, 02:34:39 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 04, 2022, 03:12:30 pm
- Making DF into a clone of the clones of DF doesn't seem to be a good way to stand out.
Without trying to derail or add to the bandwagon any further, game development history suggests there is a substantial risk of this happening for market appeal appropriate to the demographic (the subsequent downfall of kiddy platforming games, and then subsequent fall of COD popularity to the point other franchises try to rehash it in response to battle-arena), much the same way i woudn't relate to Slaves to Armok 1 the or the mutant miner demo super-primitive fortresmode to which even later on 2d forts seems relatively odd.
I'm totally on board with the UI changes Toady. I hope you don't sacrifice improvements or delay development even longer trying to make dual systems because a few people are scared of changes. If the mouse controls are good people will get over it quickly, and I trust Zach when he says things are getting easier.
Though another way of looking at it is, the true dawn of Slaves to Armok 3 as a sequel literally or spiritually is almost upon us, given we probably wont recognise the game after the map-rewrite and future arcs. I've made a thread specifically for talking about this avenue of thought. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179942.0)
Post by: squamous on June 05, 2022, 07:03:22 pm
Post by: Ziusudra on June 05, 2022, 08:27:55 pm
Will both version of the game receive the same updates other than graphics/UI/mouse support stuff?That's the plan:
Quote from: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xwhi1KKp5QD9R4-euZ0JqRB0vHdNPqdBJXjIgp-yYHA/edit
Dwarf Fortress Classic is not changing. It’ll be updated alongside the new premium versions, just without the new art, music, and Steam Workshop support.
Post by: Codyo on June 06, 2022, 04:57:17 am
Whatever comes I hope puts less strain on my mouse hand. If I could at least guide the cursor with my mouse and use the Enter key for painting things. That would be Blessed.
I know this may be a question that's been answered in ancient times, but Toady discussing wanting to provide us with more incentive to break into the cavern layers made me realize I don't think I ever broke into them more than once or twice since they were introduced a million years ago, and I always add extra normal layers to the map before the caverns can spawn.
Does breaking into the caverns still essentially destroy your FPS? I remember the game losing a ton of FPS back in the day if you broke into them, and it was one of the reasons you didn't want to do that. Has this already been mitigated, and I am so stuck in my old ways that I never realized it? Will the steam release include performances fixes for these sorts of common FPS losses?
I'd like to know the answer too for this.
Post by: SammyLiimex on June 06, 2022, 08:45:20 am
I think one of the reasons those games are so easily doable with a mouse is because theyre simpler and smaller. Theres only one Zlevel in those games, so they never had to solve how to dig out a 100 Z level stair well to the magma layer. They never need to compensate for people who draw huge layer sized mining operations where the entire layer is criss-crossing tunnels. They dont need to suddenly construct 50 bedrooms. But they do have compensatory controls to make their own limited options easy. For example, if you build a bedroom in rimworld and have it set up how you want, you can use the copy and paste tool to drop five more right next to it.
Does the premium version have tools like this? For example, if I can designate a bedroom, then copy and paste it a few times, then that will be faster than even the keyboard controls currently are. Once they are dug out, can I then place all the room's furniture I need, then copy and paste those into the other bedrooms? I don't want you to actually just become a clone of other games, but all these other games have these Quality of Life features for a reason.
Post by: Lord Shonus on June 06, 2022, 10:55:34 pm
And if anyone knows where to post something that toady will actually see, please suggest some means of resetting the "don't show this again" checkboxes at, say, world gen. I know I go for months between plays, so if I spend a ton of time on a particular fort, click a few of those checkboxes, drop that fort, and come back to a new one the next year or whatever, I'll have forgotten the now-hidden tutorial stuff by that point.
Post by: Broms on June 08, 2022, 01:08:29 pm
- Allow stockpile priorities (Important/High/Medium/Low, defaults to Medium for example) - similar to Rimworld and other games
- Change Allow stockpiles from both give/take from either linked or any, to allowing individual link/any options for either give or take? Ex: Main storage stockpile is set to take/give from all, and it is linked to give to bar stockpile #1. Workshops and such wouldn't be prohibited from taking from the main storage stockpile without a link to the main stockpile.
I bring up #1 because having a low priority central general stockpile has obvious benefits, allowing you to set up more targeted higher priority stockpiles elsewhere. It would make sense for stockpile links to override priority settings.
If option #1 is not viable, then I bring up #2 because it would be useful to have a central general stockpile, and occasionally link new more targeted stockpile to it somewhere else without limiting everything else from taking from the central general stockpile. At the moment once you've introduced one linked stockpile, you're essentially forced to establish links to every workshop or other stockpile that would have otherwise had access to the central general stockpile, making it an all or nothing choice which can cost someone a lot of time depending on the amount of workshops that might use that central general stockpile.
I think this is an area of opportunity that would benefit from some type of polish for new future users.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on June 08, 2022, 05:14:32 pm
Post by: voliol on June 09, 2022, 12:01:08 pm
Quote from: Putnam
I profiled Dwarf Fortress and found something that was, in long-term worldgen, asymptotically dominating the CPU time spent. I zapped that part of the game's assembly code (this is not advisable) and found that it was causing some specific errors in the errorlog:Code: [Select]MOUNTAIN trying to generate musical form without speech or instrumentsAt this point I just contacted the Toady One to see if he had any insight. He suggested removing all artforms from the raws (to be exact, the entity tokens allowing them to be generated) and, yeah, that caused a speedup. Seems he figured out the rest, nice.
Impoverished Word Selector
PLAINS trying to generate musical form without speech or instruments
Impoverished Word Selector
Impoverished Word Selector
EVIL trying to generate musical form without speech or instruments
Impoverished Word Selector
EVIL trying to generate musical form without speech or instruments
Impoverished Word Selector
MOUNTAIN trying to generate musical form without speech or instruments****
Will the fix have a visible footprint on the in-game cultures? I.e. will there be fewer/more books in a given world, or some properties of the former being rarer/more common?
Post by: Tachytaenius on June 09, 2022, 02:18:38 pm
Post by: Toady One on June 09, 2022, 03:05:47 pm
For hotkeys, I'll have to move some of them, since I can't assume we have a numberpad and wasd has to camp out over on the left side of the keyboard forever, but hotkeys for opening and using menus seems pretty easy to support. We do have to show them to the player somehow. Tooltips are one typical way, and there could be some layer that draws them under buttons as well (I guess some games have done, like, holding 'alt' for this kind of thing.)
For designations, I think the wasd+mouse combination can handle some things that people aren't giving it credit for (long tunnels etc.), and camera keys also work for doing up/down staircases. But we've listened to the feedback here, and a cursor mode is easy to support, since most of the code is sitting around for it and we already have cursor graphics. We just have to make sure new people don't get stuck in there.
For menu navigation, missing the numberpad and our old (sometimes inconsistent and annoying) methods of scrolling put us in a bind in some cases. Focus and button use etc. probably can't be the same between the various menus, because they are quite different from each other. Though I think, as with the Classic display and adventure mode, the main issue here is time. I see the pathway through for Classic/adventure stuff though, so it's easy to commit to doing those in as timely a fashion as possible after launch if that's the way we go. With a few of the menus, I'm not sure how much work it'd take.
We read through all of the comments and take them seriously, even the negative ones - there's no need to be rude or assume the worst. We're going to try to address issues and we think things are going to turn out well, but everything just takes time.
Post by: BrythonLexi on June 09, 2022, 03:12:52 pm
I greatly appreciate you coming out to clarify this. While i'm not keyboard or die, and would be willing to use whatever keyboard schema works, it was disheartening to have the impression of full keyboard going the way of the dodo. I would like to mention as very specific feedback that e+c for going up-and-down, at least to me, feels unusual (though I think it's easier to get used to than Arma's q+z)
Edit/Addition:
Earlier, Clinodev mentioned that this news may affect the numbers of people willing to teach new players the game. I definitely hope that we still get a lot of great teachers regardless - the keyboard is important, but I would be more than happy to help out with teaching, or feedback on tutorials if desired. Been playing for many years now, and I have a pretty solid grasp of it all.
Post by: Oafsalot on June 09, 2022, 03:50:21 pm
Please keep as much of the original shortcuts and key presses as is possible. The core user base know those already and to go full point and click would alter the pace of the game significantly enough to require a rebalance imo.
Post by: WereDragon on June 09, 2022, 04:05:09 pm
How are you holding up given what is probably a lot of stress? Do you worry that the game will not be recieved well? Are you drinking enough water?
Take breaks if you need to tarn, killing yourself to put it out faster wont make it better, we’re all excited but we’re worried about your mental health too.
Post by: Eric Blank on June 09, 2022, 05:36:10 pm
Does this book change imply authors in WG will spend less time reading books, or less time writing books about books? Necromancer towers can often contain books about the writing of a book that details the history of a book, which is a rebuttal of a book, about the author, all by the same author. Could really do with some books on what they think the meaning of life and death is or magical theory something, though that's more for myth and magic update.
With the impoverished word selector, are we looking at additions to the vocabulary and symbols lists again, or a workaround that let's them choose off-topic vocabulary?
And do you/Kitfox have a plan to deal with Steam mods that might contain adult content, like the words you removed some time ago, "nude" mods, cow woman milking, manure etc (you know it's going to happen)
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 10, 2022, 02:34:21 am
As it seems keyboard support is going to be returned, I have a few comments:
- A lot of the current key bindings make little sense. I would suggest trying to assign key bindings with a main emphasis of consistency, with retention of current bindings a secondary priority only used when the primary one doesn't provide a clear direction. Sure, it's going to be confusing to relearn keys, but it's better to have a reasonably consistent set in the long term (and it's easier to learn for new players, which is important). I believe this is in line with what was initially said when starting on the new UI, so it's not really a new suggestion.
- Allowing players to rebind keys would be very useful, especially for people using non US keyboards (as mentioned in a post in the announcement thread).
- Support for key binding sets would be useful, e.g. in the form of a file that can be modified/replaced (that would ideally be modified by in-game rebinding, if that would be supported: file editing is probably sufficient, but it would go against the "modern feel" of the new UI). Third party keybinding files for different keyboards would probably appear fairly quickly (although I would appreciate if DF was shipped with one set for stunted keyboards and one for full keyboards with num pads, but as long as the binding scheme is capable of distinguishing num pad keys from "normal" keyboard keys it ought to be reasonably easy for third parties to make mappings).
- Replacing icons with tiles displaying the key binding both as a toggle and as a temporary reminder when pressing some key would be very useful, in my opinion (but probably shouldn't replace inclusion in tool tips unless they're getting really bloated). There would be a need for some scheme to show modified keys (ctrl-whatever, shift-F* keys, ctrl-shift-alt-whatever, etc.) Color coding might be useful for that, and, possibly, if there is room for it, with some kind of low pixel count indicators for those with various kinds of color blindness issues.
Post by: TheLifeOfRyanB on June 10, 2022, 02:41:31 am
Post by: Stromko on June 10, 2022, 04:08:15 am
Post by: Uthimienure on June 10, 2022, 05:19:41 am
Post by: Pillbo on June 11, 2022, 01:19:22 pm
Is there are reason you're not doing pre-sales to boost your income for the time being?
Thanks for making the elves more dangerous, it's about time they get some respect around here!
Post by: Tachytaenius on June 11, 2022, 04:00:29 pm
edit: answered nvm
Post by: Quietust on June 11, 2022, 06:17:51 pm
How is the sharpness value of an item that gets made calculated? Are artifacts special cases?I can actually answer this one - sharpness ranges from 50% to 100% of the material's [MAX_EDGE] based on the item quality (i.e. 50% for base-quality, 60% for well-crafted, 70% for fine, 80% for superior, 90% for exceptional, 100% for masterwork).
Artifacts are supposed to be as sharp as masterworks, but due to a long-standing bug (reported here (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9549), originally discovered here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=156150.0)) they're actually as dull as base-quality.
Post by: Tachytaenius on June 12, 2022, 02:34:25 am
Do you have any plans for logs themselves to wear out over the centuries, and if so, would that include constructed buildings? Would we have to do dwarven demolition of old surface buildings?
How come there's such a limited selection of creature tags you can put on a syndrome with CE_ADD_TAG?
Have you ever considered adding config options for features like unretiring breaking forts and such?
Post by: brewer bob on June 12, 2022, 10:39:48 am
There was some mentions of the Z-status screen changing earlier, which reminded me of some not so DF related things I've been wanting to ask:
Did you possibly intentionally (or subconsciously) choose the z-key for the status screen because it was used in the Ultima series (Ztats) and, I think, some other old crpgs?
Speaking of Ultima, you've mentioned they've influenced you in world building, so my next question:
Do you have a favorite Ultima game or which one influenced you the most?
(edit. removed my last question)
Post by: SammyLiimex on June 12, 2022, 11:13:33 am
Post by: WereDragon on June 12, 2022, 09:45:41 pm
Will the object testing arena be in the first release?
As an extension, will i be able to make and save presets (grand master axedwarf with all relevant skills and full armor as an example) itd make repeated testing nice, one 5v5 can be misleading
When a dwarf has a crossbow they try to stay back, when they have a melee weapon they tend to rush the enemy, how do they behave when they have both?
What makes crossbows such a bad melee weapon? (gave a steel one to a bronze colossus and they only bruised their victims to death yikes that’s ineffective)
Ive seen dwarves parry arrows, how good are they at it at comparative skill levels when compared to a shield
Post by: Ziusudra on June 12, 2022, 10:28:16 pm
What makes crossbows such a bad melee weapon? (gave a steel one to a bronze colossus and they only bruised their victims to death yikes that’s ineffective)The huge contact area for the blunt attack of a crossbow - 10,000 vs a war hammer at 10 or a mace at 20 - it's no better than hitting them with a light weight stick. The low mass and slow speed don't help any.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 13, 2022, 03:35:59 am
The huge contact area for the blunt attack of a crossbow - 10,000 vs a war hammer at 10 or a mace at 20 - it's no better than hitting them with a light weight stick. The low mass and slow speed don't help any.
Best effect might be maximum velocity launch through a minecart in any given case, as unlike mauls with also a whiffle bat "too big to use" radius, the crossbow is always programmed to shoot when put in a weapon-trap, rather than do a mechanically twirled and fixed speed melee-smack.
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on June 13, 2022, 12:26:17 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 13, 2022, 01:42:36 pm
Will there ever be Randomly generated Martial Arts? Will dwarven children ever play-spar with each other and get combat experience?
I think fighting styles has turned up on the old roadmap at one point, but the randomly generated everything is a bit of a broad leap to spring out of a question not really aimed at the current next development (might be more army arc, which we are gradually drifting towards given the emphasis on combat).
Most real martial arts have a principle in founding, so i assume multiple dwarves could discover and accreddit special fighting moves like how scholars do discoveries but that's just me talking, i dont know what Toady would think of this question.
Post by: Schmaven on June 13, 2022, 05:17:11 pm
Will there ever be Randomly generated Martial Arts? Will dwarven children ever play-spar with each other and get combat experience?
I don't know about future plans, but if you're interested in Dwarven fighting techniques, this thread is great:
Kisat Dur: the Dwarven Martial Art (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.0)
Given the wide array of combat options, I suppose it's in a large part, up to the player to create or follow a particular fighting style.
Post by: voliol on June 14, 2022, 07:37:16 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 14, 2022, 01:00:58 pm
Quote from: question for Toady
Q: Regarding the groundwork of "religious hunting orders", will they avoid forming in the death religion* or will a alternative explanation like ethical legality on necromancy/nightcreatures be introduced to motivate their behaviours?
- Since the main proprietor of give & take for slabs (creating devoted followers who raise & destroy the undead) is the god itself as the source. Seems good for making bodies, but not for a clear view of what the sphere would now represent.
Without trying to be suggestiony, 'Undeath' might be a more apt sphere description for what we have in its place at the moment, as its a perversion of death and the values of burial, mortality & funerary practices.
Post by: Urist McSadist on June 15, 2022, 05:46:30 am
2.What changes to traps can we expect before magic?
3.Will mothers stop bringing their babies to battle in the near future?
4.Do you plan to implement proper civil wars, and if yes, when would that be?
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 15, 2022, 02:04:00 pm
1.Right now necromancers can attack your fort at any time if you are close enough. Is that intentional?
2.What changes to traps can we expect before magic?
3.Will mothers stop bringing their babies to battle in the near future?
4.Do you plan to implement proper civil wars, and if yes, when would that be?
1) to take a guess at Toady's reply, i figure its not but it might be compounded into the "irritation" mechanic in the future or pilled with the additional new-player friendly tweaks. Theres a difference between wandering undead though dispersed from a overfull tower, raised from the ground and actual armies of undead though which are handed weapons from a anamalous source (presumably a lot of looting)
2) I don't think traps are a focus of the next few arcs, but there are moving fortress parts & mechanisms arcs in seperate arcs beyond that, and hopefully the map rewrite can open up design space for more inventive traps, such as having physical cavities in the cieling to drop rocks etc/tracks giant rolling stones. Depends what we get.
3) This issue got highlighted when babies hijacked the raw implementation of mount code to drive their mothers along which took baby-carrying to a new level, i think at the time Toady did say something about nursuries but im not sure if its on schedule for this pass at the graphical arc, there are child-chores (a new feature in the upcoming version) so there's some hope it may end up addressed.
4) I imagine about the Law arc where the framework for entities recieves a rewrite, but lets see what toady says.
Post by: LordL on June 16, 2022, 11:12:38 am
So the question is: have you ever thought of playing as an intelligent magical artifact?
Post by: Silverwing235 on June 17, 2022, 04:09:20 pm
Last, the most important question:
How's Scamps doing? What's he up to?
That, I can explain. Just discovered myself - the junior Linux programmer got lymphoma'd off the team, as unfortunate as it is. (Yeah, I know that "two lines of code, that didn't compile way back when", doesn't exactly a Linux programmer make, but, work with me here? :) )
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on June 17, 2022, 04:17:50 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Greiger on June 17, 2022, 04:51:49 pm
I remember when Threetoe and Toady first told us of Scamps and he was a loved member of the community from day one. He will be missed.
Post by: Su on June 17, 2022, 05:15:46 pm
Post by: brewer bob on June 17, 2022, 05:47:07 pm
Last, the most important question:
How's Scamps doing? What's he up to?
Just discovered myself - the junior Linux programmer got lymphoma'd off the team, as unfortunate as it is.
That's... horrible news. I'm devastated to hear it (and my question seems inappropriate now). :( :'(
My deepest condolences to Toady, ThreeToe and all close ones of Scamps.
Post by: Tawa on June 17, 2022, 06:13:01 pm
Post by: malvado on June 17, 2022, 06:48:36 pm
Oh and if he spawns in one of my games I will "Screenshoot" him.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 17, 2022, 06:57:25 pm
Post by: bolivar on June 17, 2022, 07:12:06 pm
How many sneaker invasions did Scamps repel over the years?
Post by: Talvieno on June 17, 2022, 10:28:33 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 18, 2022, 03:28:39 am
Post by: Inarius on June 18, 2022, 04:10:28 am
Post by: Silverwing235 on June 18, 2022, 04:29:38 am
Have you considered getting another cat? I’d suggest going to an animal shelter. Also, I’d suggest letting the cat choose you, instead of you choosing the cat…
...Definitely too soon, frankly. Bordering on an ill-mannered bit of timing, there - at least, IMO.
Post by: Doorkeeper on June 18, 2022, 09:31:02 am
Post by: BlueManedHawk on June 18, 2022, 02:13:59 pm
Post by: Tachytaenius on June 19, 2022, 07:56:49 am
Post by: Alu on June 19, 2022, 11:04:33 am
like i.e. a contract involving sacrifice of humans or cattle in exchange for peace/protection or something?
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 19, 2022, 03:47:54 pm
In the recent update it said, people tend to worship frequent attackers of the same kind. Is this where it ends, or does/can it go further?
like i.e. a contract involving sacrifice of humans or cattle in exchange for peace/protection or something?
- Limegreen if this is a question please :D
At most, if you created your own custom megabeasts to be able to dispense sphere secrets (maybe the occasional genned forgotten beast OR if HFS are bundled into the change since the only usable vanilla secret sphere is death == necromancy), they'd most likely choose people from their own sect to share it, since its technically a little exhibited mechanic of [SUPERNATURAL] and [POWER] predating ver 44.
Condolences on scamps by the way Toady. Hope you're all ok.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 20, 2022, 01:38:46 am
In the recent update it said, people tend to worship frequent attackers of the same kind. Is this where it ends, or does/can it go further?None of the megabeasts are intelligent, so there is no way to negotiate with them. It attacks were caused by them being hungry, a "sacrifice" in the form or cattle (or captured invaders) could sate their appetite for the time being, but they're currently not driven by hunger (and if you provide animals with easy food you have a decent chance to entice them to return for more anyway).
like i.e. a contract involving sacrifice of humans or cattle in exchange for peace/protection or something?
Things will probably change in/post the Myth&Magic arc, but that's a long way off.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 20, 2022, 02:39:06 am
None of the megabeasts are intelligent, so there is no way to negotiate with them.
Semi-megabeasts likes cyclops's are intelligent, but we don't know if it branches to them through the [POWER] token getting its proper long neglected recognition.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 20, 2022, 07:57:31 am
Post by: Rumrusher on June 21, 2022, 03:34:43 pm
Yes, (some?) semi megabeasts are intelligent (and I think some of them are even fully intelligent), but they're not megabeasts.I think all 4(unless there's another semi-megabeast I'm forgetting) semi-megabeasts are fully intelligent and with persuasion in adv mode you could get them to join a site, even a player's fort (with a bunch of luck depending on how you tackle this task).
so far I think Dragons, Rocs, and maybe the Hydra are exotic pet tamable. Minotaur, Ettins, Cyclops, and Giants can be convinced to join your fort and become part of the community of dwarves+ the other folks you convince to join along the way.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 22, 2022, 02:45:11 am
Post by: SammyLiimex on June 22, 2022, 10:46:16 am
Does this new version address the super annoying issue of all military dwarves losing their assigned rooms every time you send them on a mission?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 23, 2022, 03:51:54 am
Suggestions for the improvement of the Dump functionality:
- Allow dump zones to use stockpile filters so they only receive certain types of items. That would allow you to have more than one zone active at a time and still get items dumped in the intended location.
- Display of the number of items marked for dumping (you can't use the task list, as dumping tasks are added and removed dynamically without regard for how many items actually remain). It would be preferred if there was a grand total as well as the number remaining for each zone (to know when the prisoner stripping is done, for instance).
Suggestion for an improvement of the Corpse stockpile functionality:
Add a setting to allow you to dedicate the stockpile for corpses that can be buried vs. corpses that can't. Invader corpses need to be disposed of, while you want to ensure your citizens aren't dumped into the incinerator/garbage compactor. Optionally a category for corpses that can be buried but won't be raised as ghosts if they aren't.
@SammyLiimex: As far as I understand that's the result of dwarves on assignment being removed from the fortress and re-introduced when they return rather than remain as fortress members while away (like inbound caravan members are in the data structures but not visible until they actually enter the map). Past reports have not indicated the approach has been changed when bugs have been addressed.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 23, 2022, 07:45:39 am
The dump zone is far to valuable to be wasted on dumping garbage, when it's needed for e.g. the stripping of prisoners.
Suggestions for the improvement of the Dump functionality:
- Allow dump zones to use stockpile filters so they only receive certain types of items. That would allow you to have more than one zone active at a time and still get items dumped in the intended location.
In fairness, this is categorically true amongst new and old players alike, i never use dumping zones for actually disposing of rubbish, but rather a direct command to move a object. If the entire thing was distinguished into a "fetch" designation without the forbidding, it'd probably work all the same, but the zone adds the convenience to automating the desired landing place and logic of how it should be set down (thrown down the chute to the caverns or gently laid down in general space)
Im only elaborating on it here like patriklundell is, because it's a mean of use suggestion in the most simplistic sense probably doesnt warrant a thread, not that we'd usually breach suggestions anyway.
@SammyLiimex: As far as I understand that's the result of dwarves on assignment being removed from the fortress and re-introduced when they return rather than remain as fortress members while away (like inbound caravan members are in the data structures but not visible until they actually enter the map). Past reports have not indicated the approach has been changed when bugs have been addressed.
Its still a player inconvenience though, its hard to percieve from our end if its actually nessecary to do, there are other times where the disconnect between the military and the fortress is very apparent, like the schedule breaks in military screen that cause dwarves who unassign from active military service by not having a schedule task that month to switch to becoming citizens, then inundate the details screen with fresh historically carried reports of them being assigned back into the squad when used by the player or signing back in to training according to schedule of that year. (when they never actually left the squad, being on active call to mobilize at all times)
Most bugs like that aren't reported to mantis and live entirely in the public conciousness, either by players being unable to describe or assertain whether the GUI or gameplay is just quirky or broken.
Maybe we'll cross that bridge when the Army arc comes around, with notable goals such as having a army controller bit of logic of our own that isn't attached to the site help retrospectively smooth over the role of the militia as front-maining every hostile action the fortress has to partake in.
Post by: Quietust on June 24, 2022, 09:13:08 am
I'm curious - wasn't the original purpose of Corpse stockpiles (originally Graveyard stockpiles) to only accept buriable corpses while everything else would go to Refuse stockpiles? It looks like that changed at some point, and I'm not sure I understand why.
Suggestion for an improvement of the Corpse stockpile functionality:
Add a setting to allow you to dedicate the stockpile for corpses that can be buried vs. corpses that can't. Invader corpses need to be disposed of, while you want to ensure your citizens aren't dumped into the incinerator/garbage compactor. Optionally a category for corpses that can be buried but won't be raised as ghosts if they aren't.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 24, 2022, 01:11:14 pm
I'm curious - wasn't the original purpose of Corpse stockpiles (originally Graveyard stockpiles) to only accept buriable corpses while everything else would go to Refuse stockpiles? It looks like that changed at some point, and I'm not sure I understand why.
Suggestion for an improvement of the Corpse stockpile functionality:
Add a setting to allow you to dedicate the stockpile for corpses that can be buried vs. corpses that can't. Invader corpses need to be disposed of, while you want to ensure your citizens aren't dumped into the incinerator/garbage compactor. Optionally a category for corpses that can be buried but won't be raised as ghosts if they aren't.
They're filtered by dead_dwarf=true (for graveyard/refuse if false) which keep watch of maintaining intellgent bodies stay out of butchery since the mermaid-bones incident. I do believe the coffins individually have faction checks though, as a citizen or pet body of your fort can have its flags manually turned off in gui-editor (over the whole corpse or just pieces of it) and be interred and exhumed again to be chucked into the butcher-shop at leisure.
So all in all im not sure exactly what patrik is talking about, as its much more mechanically rooted. Finalizing the broken ethics that should release/optimize the control of eating/tropyhizing sentients (thus far only being done by scripting support) would be a nice treat for the buglist though. Maybe they are QSP'ing graveyard victims en-masse and can't partition them effectively when casualties/kills are thick and fast?
- Its relatable, i only have small graveyard rooms for anti-horror reasons and a 100 strong siege which is half the strength of the default 200 settings usually takes me 15 minutes to gather individual chopped off fingers etc, a mass grave that didn't leave pernament FPS-Hog bone-pits of a dump zone would be easier, i could least burrow dwarves to finish the job
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 24, 2022, 02:24:21 pm
Before visitors were introduced, the Corpse stockpile was reserved for dorfs, with everything else being sent to the Refuse stockpile, thus leading to caravans bolting as they approached the refuse stockpile, with dorfs suffering trauma, due to all the corpses of of sapients in the stockpile. That could be worked around by filtering the Corpse setting of the Refuse stockpiles on species, to get sapients into one stockpile and the rest into the regular one (you also had to deal with other Refuse stockpile sub categories, in particular teeth, as half a tooth was all it took for panic to set in.
Current implementation:
Corpses of all sapients are sent to the Corpse stockpile, and there is no sub settings, so troglodytes go there together with invaders and citizens. My suggestion was to allow you to send the "good" ones to one stockpile and the "trash" to another. Also note that corpses of undead of former sapients are treated as refuse, not Corpses.
It's true that only some creatures can be buried, and coffins check for that. However, it's rather difficult to bury the body of a defender when it's already been incinerated together with the bodies of the killed invaders (mine cart taking from the Corpse stockpile and dumping into magma, i.e. basically a quantum stockpile, but without the stocking and piling [I usually use a drawbridge at the bottom of a shaft to eliminate the corpses, but the effect is the same])...
Apart from the mechanics, I'd want those to be buried to be sent to a respectful morgue close to the burial grounds, while dead invaders are sent elsewhere and just disposed of using the method of your choice.
Sapient part crafting:
It's still possible, but you can't butcher the corpses. Instead, you have to have the corpses "butchered" naturally and let the arms/legs decay to release the bones that will then happily be used by dorfs for crafting (and if you don't monitor them they'll grab bones of undead of former sapients from the refuse stockpile if you happen to run out of bone elsewhere). It's even possible to use traps to do the "butchering", and with reanimation you can try repeatedly until the desired bits are severed. It's very inefficient, though, with most attempts failing.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 24, 2022, 05:14:11 pm
Q for Toady: Sorry if its relatively out of left field, but would it be possible within the next version to define megabeast worshipping religions on entity.txt? Or are they entirely by design w.g circumstantial?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 25, 2022, 01:49:16 am
It can be noted that the "old" Corpse stockpile behavior was present in 0.40.24. Visitors were introduced later than that, and that's when it became necessary to deal with non dwarven citizens.
Post by: clinodev on June 26, 2022, 06:14:17 am
Quote
Farm plots aren't as easy to misplace, since there are usually only a few layers where they can logically be set down, but it's nice to have an overview of what's currently growing and ready to harvest.
That struck me at the time as interesting and odd, as I've long been an advocate for bending the embark to dwarven will, and not letting the embark drive fortress design. I've taught the building of small, local, irrigated and sometimes fertilized farm plots where they're most convenient to industry, pigtail and dimple cup plots adjacent to farmers workshops, looms, and clothier's workshops, for instance, and distributed small food plots in the cellars of kitchens, because centralized food production and distribution is one of the bigger causes of pathing in mature forts. I'm on the verge of actually convincing people that they can build fortresses like those in fantasy literature, instead of pancake stack/Foxconn-style dormitory factories with nets on the windows and guards to keep the workers in. Anyway.
This was all just curious, until I remembered that you'd also said in the 30 May 2022 DevLog:
Quote
Also played around with farming to shake up some patterns. Farming in the shallow soil layers far above the caverns is now no longer as viable, and farming in the cavern layers is as rich as usual.
which now has me concerned.
Are the changes to farming depth based, or specifically surface soil and cavern based?
Have there been changes to farming that make irrigated stone plots on arbitrary levels less effective?
Encouraging players to dig a little deeper is lovely, but not at the expense of the Deep Plots that provide for the Dwarven Wine drank by the master smiths working at magma forges just above the lowest levels, when they take their rest.
In this general context, I've also been asked
Will the changes will make actual outdoor plant surface farming less effective?
Post by: eerr on June 26, 2022, 01:43:32 pm
don't get me wrong, goo rain and dust are both deserving of an evil embark.
but I miss the challenge of dealing with all the nasties that came with certain biomes.
Stuff like roaming undead animals and flying hungry heads that scour the earth hunting anything living.
did you remove standard evil areas intentionally?
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 27, 2022, 05:49:04 am
Since 47.05, I have been unable to generate worlds with the classic evil biomes.
don't get me wrong, goo rain and dust are both deserving of an evil embark.
but I miss the challenge of dealing with all the nasties that came with certain biomes.
Stuff like roaming undead animals and flying hungry heads that scour the earth hunting anything living.
did you remove standard evil areas intentionally?
Toady did. It was a nessecary step to tie the spheres and the biomes together for 47.01 so that evil creatures like HFS clowns in their dark-fortresses & necromancers (raising corpses around themselves that spill out and gather at the tower) could spread their related influences.
The most moderate form of 'Classically Evil' embark would probably be with the "Nightmares" sphere residing with the new isolated home of the boogeymen. Underground is untouched however at the moment with evil and good creatures (including hungry heads) being able to appear out of any cavern system and thus far always has been like that regarding that site effects like re-animation travel horizontally all the way down have some noticable flair of impact.
Question for Toady: On the topic; with the changes being made to sustainability away from shallower layers to "more rich" farmland beneath what are your thoughts on the current state of cavern wildlife, and are we likely to see any biome alterations/isolated spheres in the caverns for the next version?
Post by: voliol on June 28, 2022, 08:01:00 am
Since 47.05, I have been unable to generate worlds with the classic evil biomes.
don't get me wrong, goo rain and dust are both deserving of an evil embark.
but I miss the challenge of dealing with all the nasties that came with certain biomes.
Stuff like roaming undead animals and flying hungry heads that scour the earth hunting anything living.
did you remove standard evil areas intentionally?
You might have had bad luck. I've had forts doomed by evil camels since 0.47.05 I'm pretty sure, and the primordial evil biomes not spawned by demons, mummies, or other evil critters I think can be sphere-unaligned.
Edit: I just realized that the worlds were genned in earlier versions, whether I remembered correctly or not. Disregard this.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on June 28, 2022, 11:40:30 am
A dwarf that gets thrown in prison for starting fights will likely only get worse while in prison, no matter how crazy expensive ritzy you make said prison.
Post by: Deno on June 29, 2022, 04:09:14 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 29, 2022, 11:27:19 am
Procedurally generated playable races more or less requires all races to be playable. Humans will have to be playable as completely mundane worlds will have nothing but humans.
Procedural races would probably have procedurally generated technologies, while the current setup would have something similar to what's present today, but playable. Thus, dwarves would probably be the only ones with steel, and be better at mining than everyone else, and so on.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on June 29, 2022, 02:36:11 pm
Procedural races would probably have procedurally generated technologies
I almost drooled on myself while contemplating that statement. Dude, it could be so good. "Procedurally generated technology" - ie. Overly elaborate inventions of arcane artifice, which may possess a macabre nature at times, whose sole function virtually equates to that of a basic rudimentary household technology circa 800 C.E.
Hey Pat,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Actually, my spoiler comment above reminds me, We have pump screws which convert dwarves labor into power for the sole purposes of pumping fluids, but why don't we have a device for converting dwarves labor into power in general, like a treadmill? I wouldn't mind assigning all of my animal dissector migrants to power a fort's machinery, as this would facilitate a use for these dwarves. Perhaps even a giant hamster (tame), if such a thing were possible. Apologies if this is more line with a suggestion, but this has actually confused me for a while.
Post by: Schmaven on June 29, 2022, 02:52:16 pm
Actually, my spoiler comment above reminds me
...
I wouldn't mind assigning all of my animal dissector migrants to power a fort's machinery, as this facilitate a use for these dwarves. Perhaps even a giant hamster (tame), if such a thing were possible. Apologies if this is more line with a suggestion, but this has actually confused me for a while.
I don't see why someone couldn't pretent pumps are treadmills and have those migrants pump water through some water wheels to generate power for the machinery.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on June 29, 2022, 03:13:09 pm
I don't see why someone couldn't pretent pumps are treadmills and have those migrants pump water through some water wheels to generate power for the machinery.
While you could do that, despite it requiring a bit of work in designing, channeling, irrigating, etc. The reason you'd likely want to avoid having to "pretend" it's a treadmill is to avoid having to deal with fluids at all, as this can become a major concern when attempting to maximize, or merely improve, one's frame-rate.
Quick riddle: "This thing all things devours: birds, beasts, trees, flowers; gnaws iron, bites steel; grinds hard stones to meal; slays king, ruins town, and beats high mountain down." The answer is: the frame-rate.
Rivers are easily the best natural power solution short of utilizing
Post by: voliol on June 29, 2022, 04:36:17 pm
If I remember correctly, when talking about the myths&magic update, you mentioned procedurally generated races and worlds that may not include dwarfs. Does that mean that fortress mode will be expanded to make all civilizations playable regardless of what race they are? Are there going to be mechanical or technological differences between different races and civilizations?
They talk about this a bit in DF Talk #25. There will be a pass at different kinds of embarks for different civs in the Embark Scenarios update. However, that comes after Myths&Magic, so to begin with the playable procgen creatures will have to live in dwarfy ways, with e.g. outpost liaisons.
Quote from: Toady One, DF Talk #25
One [stumbling block for playing as non-dwarfs] would be just the overall framing story, like we probably don't want the mountain homes of the humans like sending you a liaison that requests that you uplift a baron, in like the same way and stuff, right? So there'd be certain restructuring and the current thinking on that had been to do that with the Embark Scenarios. To kind of think about why you're there and then that would be more structurable. Of course that would come after the Myth & Magic release, and this is kind of the big point on that is that with the Myth & Magic release you set those weird sliders over to have non dwarf play because you're playing a like three legged mollusk. Then, I mean, human town mode seems attainable when you've know done three legged mollusk mode. Of course three legged mollusk mode comes before the Embark Scenarios in this timeline, so you'd still have some kind of like output liaison scenario probably with your three-legged mollusks. So it's one of these things that we're approaching in this modular fashion.
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 29, 2022, 04:41:05 pm
Post by: clinodev on June 30, 2022, 12:09:49 am
Quote
The game searches the world for an optimal tutorial location - forested, brook, pretty flat, shallow metals, if it can get all this - and plops you down there after a short animation.
While that might be as good as currently released site search* could get a new player, (and wise men might differ, I'd add flux and deep metals at least, and mountain zones with aquifers are guaranteed to contain sedimentary stone, and very likely iron, for instance, while your flatland shallow metals might well be alluvial gold and cassiterite) PatrikLundell's excellent embark-assistant (https://docs.dfhack.org/en/stable/docs/Plugins.html#embark-assistant) plugin has shown that searching for sites with those criteria and iron ore specifically, for example, is scarcely slower than standard searches, and well-worth the effort. We know that real-world classical and medieval humans were quite capable of finding iron and copper ore mining sites (which tend to be "shallow") to the point ore deposits in Roman Italy and Spain were often marked as existing but too far from forests or rivers to be economical, and thus ignored, and in DF they're often shown in outcroppings and river cuts on embark anyway. It seems odd dwarves would ever build a fortress on a site devoid of shallow weapon-grade
*[Edit to add: I set up to do some testing on how often those parameters (forested, brook, pretty flat, shallow metals) produce a good tutorial embark, and was immediately reminded that you can't actually search for "forested" with the vanilla site search, so clearly you've done some expansion, at least for the locked tutorial search. Hopefully this makes my questions redundant, and we're already in for greatly expanded search!]
With all that in mind, are you considering expanding the site selection search for Premium
Expanded search in embark-assistant. (https://imgur.com/a/VCddmwH)
Additionally, have you considered asking the "Do you want to do a tutorial?" question at the beginning of worldgen and locking the default "tutorial" experience to reasonable settings like "small" and "short"? This would go a long way towards discouraging the standard new player impulse to say, "I have a decent computer, let's choose Large and Very Long, heck, all max settings!" which leads to frustratingly long worldgens [Edit: and necromancer death worlds, and so on].
[Edit: Sorry to bang on about this. I know people who have played for years who gave up on finding iron long ago and who have never made steel, and newer players advanced enough to answer some questions in the questions threads who literally buy all their metal goods from merchants because they got bad early embarks and just assume weapons grade metals are rare, and iron anvils only come from the mountainhome. It adds to the false meme of DF being "too hard to play" and restricts their games terribly. Especially in a tutorial start, I hope we can say with confidence: "Okay, now that you're dug a little starting hall, dig around in the top 5 hard stone layers until you find magnetite, hematite, or limonite, (you'll get the "You've struck IRON, the muscles of the mountain!" tutorial message) and dig some out, so we can get you making iron bars for more picks, weapons, armor, and a spare anvil to hide from the keas!"]
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2022, 02:36:21 am
In the 06/06/2022 DevLog, you talk about tutorial site selection.
With all that in mind, are you considering expanding the site selection search for Premium, at least for tutorial embarks? It seems like a low-effort, high return change, and would act as more of a difficulty lever than many other changes. Searching for sedimentary layers would produce a far higher chance of good sites, for instance, than "shallow metals".
You can render with the minutest bit of modding, the whole 'Sedimentary search' redundant unless modders always uphold some innate value about it such as its geologically/biome formatory relevant positioning (beneath oceans and low volcanism drainage if i remember correct) but they can still strip it of anything valuable to "waste your time" as it were. I think that's very unlikely to be implemented over the embark assistant still wrestling to show the raw info from the site in relative real-time from different parameters rather than pre-determined
In-universe explanations may still be on the table though for player usability without merging the embark-assistant tool right in, like pre-established geologic surveys which you pay a small fee of your embark money to have a contracted embark geologist dig a pre-dug hole for you and issue a report. That's kind of what stance a (knowledgeable) player finding out about it would take, just digging, taking (not ingame) notes of what rock types and layers viewed on the way down.
Trying to explain your report in a physical statue/slab/wooden sign slab next to the hole with pictures would be funny, but i think its unlikely.
Post by: clinodev on June 30, 2022, 05:23:03 am
You can render with the minutest bit of modding,
Hopefully most people will play their first tutorial embark in a vanilla world, at least! :)
In-universe explanations may still be on the table though for player usability without merging the embark-assistant tool right in, like pre-established geologic surveys which you pay a small fee of your embark money to have a contracted embark geologist dig a pre-dug hole for you and issue a report[...].
Honestly, in a world where any 12 year old can mine and smelt any ore, and cut any gemstone as well as the most ancient grandmaster in the mountain hall, just not as fast, I figure that dwarves with travel lust and caravaneers have been wandering the surface and the deep ways of the caverns since Armok created the Great Ancestoral Anvil all other anvils are descended from, taking notes on every magnetite mountain outcrop, tetrahedrite river cut, coal seam, and emerald-like gleam in a marble cavern pillar, and storing it in the mountain hall Libraries. When the Mountainhome sends out an expedition to build a fortress to check goblin expansion in the East, they first send word to the scholars who pour over their scrolls and examine their quires to find a location that suits both the security needs of the civilization, but gives the fortress dwarves the best chance to build and to live in comfort with great wealth.
I edited my earlier post some, but I don't think it affects your reply.
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2022, 08:53:55 am
You can render with the minutest bit of modding,
Hopefully most people will play their first tutorial embark in a vanilla world, at least! :)
That's by no means a gurantee, a lot of newer players run straight for the tilesets/supported usersets with LNP, reinforced by the recent DFhack survey posed to Reddit users, where actual big tier modifications typified for ascii aren't that common you can guess for first choice but masterwork mod players (graphical + technical in modding) benchmarks a entire popular generation of DF players with some up 8 to 10 years ago still occasionally popping up in the present, because they'd heard about the steam release & a very low key amount of hype for modding to pick up again afterwards.
Speaking of that Survey, here it is for Toady incase they hadn't seen it.
<Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164123.msg8384845#msg8384845)>
Though DFhack is obviously seperate, what do you think of the filtered polled data in parallel to your current work on the steam release?
Post by: Toady One on July 01, 2022, 02:19:08 am
Quote from: SammyLiimex
Does breaking into the caverns still essentially destroy your FPS? I remember the game losing a ton of FPS back in the day if you broke into them, and it was one of the reasons you didn't want to do that. Has this already been mitigated, and I am so stuck in my old ways that I never realized it? Will the steam release include performances fixes for these sorts of common FPS losses?
We haven't observed this, and I'm not sure what it would be. Something to do with webs and looms?
Quote from: Central Speaker Dan
The information provided about being able to change the difficulty settings (encounter triggers, wealth, etc.) on embark made me curious about two distinct things. The first was the changing of these setting during an active fort without having to go to save files. Even if this required the game to save, quit, relaunch, and reload, this would be a fantastic storytelling tool, one that is already heavily used by many DF storytellers.
My second thought/question extends on from the first... In the future, could we see these variabes being modified dynamically in the game itself?
This is slightly complex to explain the use-cases of, but I'll try to be conciese...
Certain collections of modifiers could be made and defined as 'Periods'. A 'Period of Peace' might start when there are no wars and most factions have good relations. This period would slightly nudge the conflict rate down by modifying the settings approapriately. Similarly, if relations between many factions are bad, but haven't yet resulted in war, a 'Period of Tension' might occur, which raises the likelyhood of certain kinds of hostilities, reduces the elf-enforced tree-cutting limit, theives are more common, etc. Finally, to continue the example, a 'Period of Conflict' might start when a large number of wars break out, or a lot of sites are conquered, increasing the likelyhood of raids, seiges, and other threats, before things eventually settle down again.
This could later be tied into the economics, job assignments and other systems, so that these things also vary, such as having more guards during a 'Period of Tension' and harsher prison sentances, and weapons and armor being in high demand during a 'Period of Conflict', making them more valuable as trade goods.
Obviously, this is a big, long term kind of thing that would need to be strong enough to be noticable, but also not so strong that it derails things too often. Balancing would be a nightmare.
I'm curious if this kind of abstracted mood or relations layer is something that you have considered, or your thoughts on it more generally?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8379318#msg8379318
Yeah, as clinodev says, we'll be able to change a lot of stuff on the fly, and which settings go in at the world level, which at the embark level, and which at the any-time-at-all level comes down to player happiness now rather than anything technical. Right now difficulty is set at embark (including customizing all of the trigger values), but there could be an option to make that available as a settings tab available during play. I imagine some people will wanna be locked in, and others will want to freely change things.
Exceptions include most world options, which are almost entirely in the world gen parameters where it makes sense to have them. Like, once it generates X titans, there's no point in changing that number.
I'm not personally super interested in an abstract later - I'm interested in the simulation giving rise to stories. For instance, one of the goals of the army arc (which we may not attain depending on the political side) is to get rid of the need for siege triggers. However, I'd be willing to support stuff that's (1) easy to write and maintain, and (2) plays nice with the simulation. A stark example of this is the "disable invasions" difficulty option. It's obviously not part of the simulation, but it can easily live alongside the simulation and I don't have to work much to keep it around. So we may see things like this expand our difficulty options as people suggest them. Another caveat - stuff like the periods you describe would fit right in with deity influence etc. etc., so may in fact become part of the simulation if things go that way, on a per-universe basis.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
More questions about the irritation mechanic: 1) Is it a behaviour attached to a token on a creature (such as all or some giant animals through CV's) or a always present enviromental hazard?
2) And does it apply to the naked wildnerness animalpeople as we know it already? (though i would be suprised if animalpeople aboveground were united into their own civ-group alongside subterrenean people given the extreme variety, much least that'd mean a expansion of the entity file, or some hardcoded function)
I dont want to get the idea that a sudden stampede of irritated rhinos can be misinterpreted as a pseudo-siege, but there is getting a slight perceptive disparity over what 'irritation' means and its participants with your ostrich example of mundane animals as a overall mechanic. But maybe im just overthinking it.
1) I think it just applies to any aboveground wilderness population creature.
2) The aboveground animal people don't have entities or anything, and they get hit with it as well.
Quote from: brewer bob
With the internal menus for the settings coming, will we still be able to change the settings in d_init.txt, init.txt and other such files? I'm personally more comfortable with editing the settings with a text editor, so I'm curious to know if this option will still be available.
These types of files should still exist, yeah. I'll have to save the settings changes people make, and that can just be in text. I'm not sure if it'll end up in a separate file, etc.
Quote from: squamous
Will both version of the game receive the same updates other than graphics/UI/mouse support stuff?
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8379671#msg8379671
Once we get Classic ready, yeah, it's all the same code base, so everything that isn't a menu needing adaptation comes for free, and once the number of menus needing adaptation isn't the whole game, I should be able to keep up with that for every release as well. The new vanilla music and art are Premium only of course.
Quote from: SammyLiimex
Does the premium version have tools like this? For example, if I can designate a bedroom, then copy and paste it a few times, then that will be faster than even the keyboard controls currently are. Once they are dug out, can I then place all the room's furniture I need, then copy and paste those into the other bedrooms? I don't want you to actually just become a clone of other games, but all these other games have these Quality of Life features for a reason.
I mentioned blueprints last month as something that's on the table, but we don't have anything like this yet. Building placement definitely needs a bit more help.
Quote from: Broms
Are there any plans for updating stockpile settings to either:
Allow stockpile priorities (Important/High/Medium/Low, defaults to Medium for example) - similar to Rimworld and other games
Change Allow stockpiles from both give/take from either linked or any, to allowing individual link/any options for either give or take? Ex: Main storage stockpile is set to take/give from all, and it is linked to give to bar stockpile #1. Workshops and such wouldn't be prohibited from taking from the main storage stockpile without a link to the main stockpile.
I bring up #1 because having a low priority central general stockpile has obvious benefits, allowing you to set up more targeted higher priority stockpiles elsewhere. It would make sense for stockpile links to override priority settings.
If option #1 is not viable, then I bring up #2 because it would be useful to have a central general stockpile, and occasionally link new more targeted stockpile to it somewhere else without limiting everything else from taking from the central general stockpile. At the moment once you've introduced one linked stockpile, you're essentially forced to establish links to every workshop or other stockpile that would have otherwise had access to the central general stockpile, making it an all or nothing choice which can cost someone a lot of time depending on the amount of workshops that might use that central general stockpile.
I think this is an area of opportunity that would benefit from some type of polish for new future users.
There've been a number of different suggestions about this over the years. I'm worried about CPU load with priorities, where every item in every stockpile would be more potentially restless about its storage, and item storage is already troublesome CPU-wise as is. It feels doable with some kind of under-the-hood management system orchestrating it, making it something other than auto-links everywhere, but that would be a larger project. On the other hand, adding some extra options for how links work vs. workshops taking from piles seems more manageable, unless I'm missing something.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Will it be possible to turn off tooltips?
That's not in there now but would be quick to set up. I'll keep it in mind for the settings stuff I'm about to start.
Quote
Quote from: voliolWhat was the nature of the bug tipped by Putnam?
Will the fix have a visible footprint on the in-game cultures? I.e. will there be fewer/more books in a given world, or some properties of the former being rarer/more common?Quote from: Eric BlankDoes this book change imply authors in WG will spend less time reading books, or less time writing books about books? Necromancer towers can often contain books about the writing of a book that details the history of a book, which is a rebuttal of a book, about the author, all by the same author. Could really do with some books on what they think the meaning of life and death is or magical theory something, though that's more for myth and magic update.
With the impoverished word selector, are we looking at additions to the vocabulary and symbols lists again, or a workaround that let's them choose off-topic vocabulary?
And do you/Kitfox have a plan to deal with Steam mods that might contain adult content, like the words you removed some time ago, "nude" mods, cow woman milking, manure etc (you know it's going to happen)
It was authoring the various books that need historical information about the author. They went over the totality of history too often, and history is always growing. I was troubled at first that it wasn't specifically art-form related, but the world gen times prove that this was the big block. It's possible that the authors no longer attempted books when art was turned off because of the various writing forms and some of their linkages to the other art stuff, but I'm not really sure.
Any changes to books should be unnoticeably subtle, and only for certain authors - authors still go over all of history, but they keep track of where they left off and cache a large number of events they'd like to write about (it was the repeat authors that were the real culprit.) Once an author has been involved in a hundred events, it starts overwriting the cache based on importance, but most authors don't get to that number of events in their lives, so it's just not going to affect anything, or if it does, it would mean that the authors with super eventful lives focus on (lots of) stuff that's important, which is an improvement, but it would really take a lot of events to be noticeable. The zanier books about stuff that isn't important (important to us, anyway) will still be frequent.
The impoverished word selector thing is still there as far as I know, and I don't know what the deal is.
We haven't talked about mod moderation with Kitfox yet. I know Steam has tags for adult content and permits all manner of matter. I'm not sure if they'll want to have a say as well.
Quote from: Tachytaenius
Are blade scabbards planned for the future, and if so, would they be able to go on one's hip/waist? (More realistic (for longer weapons at least) than on upper body.)
I think we mentioned them somewhere in the vastness of notes but I'm not sure when. The current 'strapped' stuff supports the upper body and waterskins get stuffed in pants and such, so there's some precedent floating around for various configurations which might be possible.
Quote from: BrythonLexi
To clarify regarding designations; does this mean that a mouse only or wasd+mouse designation method will be the default, with the traditional keyboard-only approach having a way to be enabled for players who prefer that method?
Something like that, yeah. More generally, when I get to other menus, I'm not sure if there will be one universal way to opt-in to keyboard selectors/etc. that you won't have to invoke over and over, just once. That seems preferable.
Quote from: WereDragon
How are you holding up given what is probably a lot of stress? Do you worry that the game will not be recieved well? Are you drinking enough water?
This question was asked before June got especially bad. Now I dunno. Wasn't a great month, but I'm still here. The game's always been weird but I think it'll be okay. Water every day, possibly enough.
Quote from: Pillbo
Will we be able to click and drag round and rectangular shapes for constructions/designations, à la mspaint?
Is there are reason you're not doing pre-sales to boost your income for the time being?
Haven't added brush shapes yet. I don't know that we'll get to that at first, but it's certain possible to do that kind of thing now.
My second-hand understanding is that pre-sales are only permitted for large companies that Steam knows are capable of paying the pre-sale money back if something unexpected happens, but I don't remember where I heard that. I don't recall ever seeing an indie game with pre-sales, but I might be wrong. Things are fine now, in any case. The community has responded resoundingly and decided to keep us afloat.
Quote from: Tachytaenius
Will cooking plants ever drop seeds?
Do you have any plans for logs themselves to wear out over the centuries, and if so, would that include constructed buildings? Would we have to do dwarven demolition of old surface buildings?
How come there's such a limited selection of creature tags you can put on a syndrome with CE_ADD_TAG?
Have you ever considered adding config options for features like unretiring breaking forts and such?
Cooked seeds: Saving seeds from cooked plants as part of cooking is on the list of things to try to get in, since it can be harmful to new players especially.
Log rot: I don't recall any plans here. We only ever did the moss to show age, but definitely lots more to do.
Tags: They all need to be implemented manually, since weird stuff sometimes needs to be dealt with, so we just do them as they come up.
I'm not sure what you mean by the config option here. Broken forts just sounds like bugs to fix, and retirement certainly has its share, but maybe I'm just not thinking of a way to parse 'breaking forts' correctly.
Quote from: brewer bob
There was some mentions of the Z-status screen changing earlier, which reminded me of some not so DF related things I've been wanting to ask:
Did you possibly intentionally (or subconsciously) choose the z-key for the status screen because it was used in the Ultima series (Ztats) and, I think, some other old crpgs?
Speaking of Ultima, you've mentioned they've influenced you in world building, so my next question:
Do you have a favorite Ultima game or which one influenced you the most?
Yeah, Ztats... I don't remember specifically if that's what we were thinking since it was so long ago, but it seems likely. I was certainly aware and can still visually the command coming up in the little cursor area on the lower right.
Let's see, we played Ultima 3 to 8, the two Underworlds, and the dinosaur one but not the mars one.
My favorite is 4 because it was so different from anything before, but the improvements from 5 to 7 were pretty inspirational in terms of how the world was becoming more interactive, and the first Underworld has a really striking claustrophobic survival atmosphere that I haven't felt recaptured in any game I've played since, though I haven't played a lot of the new survival-style games.
Quote from: SammyLiimex
Is there going to be a more user friendly animal stocks page? I would like to be able to sort them by name, type, etc; but in the current DF version, they are all in a giant list by join date, which is kind of pointless and hard to figure out what you have.
The current Pets/Livestock info menu mostly does this; name sorting works, though the type part is weird/broken now.
Quote from: WereDragon
I was in the object testing arena playing around with melee ranged hybrids and i ran into some issues, but it got me thinking (the issue was there are no quivers in there but anyway)
Will the object testing arena be in the first release?
As an extension, will i be able to make and save presets (grand master axedwarf with all relevant skills and full armor as an example) itd make repeated testing nice, one 5v5 can be misleading
When a dwarf has a crossbow they try to stay back, when they have a melee weapon they tend to rush the enemy, how do they behave when they have both?
What makes crossbows such a bad melee weapon? (gave a steel one to a bronze colossus and they only bruised their victims to death yikes that’s ineffective)
Ive seen dwarves parry arrows, how good are they at it at comparative skill levels when compared to a shield
Arena: It's one of the borderline things for the first release, with Adventure, Classic, etc. I know it's really important to modders, etc., and is presumably a lot quicker to do than, say, all of Adventure mode. But now it's July, and we'll just have to see what happens as we work through everything. I haven't planned any major new features for it.
Crossbow melee weapon (I assume people that replied know more than me about this at this point, after all the testing):
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8381057#msg8381057
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8381102#msg8381102
Parry: The main code I'm finding here is that, for projectiles, the defender's parry roll is halved, and their block roll is doubled.
Quote from: Obsidian Short Sword
Will there ever be Randomly generated Martial Arts? Will dwarven children ever play-spar with each other and get combat experience?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8381188#msg8381188
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8381238#msg8381238
Yeah, we had some specific plans for generated martial arts, and it was even kinda-sorta in Armok 1. But we haven't gotten back around to it in all these years.
If we added child play-sparring, I have no idea how much it should actually count.
Quote from: voliol
Have the artists recovered enough of the art to do a showcase video any time soon? I found those were both very enjoyable and gave a clear image of how the GUI worked in practice.
We're not there yet. They aren't working on any new stuff until the video-needed art is redone, so we'll really be doing videos again as soon as it's possible. There was just an awful lot to replace.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Q: Regarding the groundwork of "religious hunting orders", will they avoid forming in the death religion* or will a alternative explanation like ethical legality on necromancy/nightcreatures be introduced to motivate their behaviours?
Since the main proprietor of give & take for slabs (creating devoted followers who raise & destroy the undead) is the god itself as the source. Seems good for making bodies, but not for a clear view of what the sphere would now represent.
We've tried at times to tie the spheres to justifications, as with the releasing of demons by all sorts of spheres for a variety of reasons. So hopefully we'd be able to provide an actual justification for why things happen when it comes to opposing necromancers in various ways. Obviously there's the practical reason of not wanting the world to be dead, but it's good to go beyond that, even as it relates to intelligent undead becoming poets or whatever and figuring out what is going on with society after all. Maybe some of them will be cool with that.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Right now necromancers can attack your fort at any time if you are close enough. Is that intentional?
2.What changes to traps can we expect before magic?
3.Will mothers stop bringing their babies to battle in the near future?
4.Do you plan to implement proper civil wars, and if yes, when would that be?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8381619#msg8381619
1. Yeah, it's set up like that, though we've changed the sizes and some of the ramp-up formulas now. They don't have a reliable entity definition, so the regular trigger system doesn't apply to them.
2. One idea is that a simple hallway setup shouldn't be able to stop every siege, and we'll keep messing with stuff to accomplish this. I'm not sure if that means leaning more toward AI changes, rather than changes to trap mechanics. The big stuff we wanted to do with traps has to wait for the map rewrite.
3. Probably not, though we've taken into consideration all the various ideas surrounding childcare and hope to get there sometime before the far future.
4. One avenue we'd considered more recently was the coup stuff we have for the villain release. The claimant stuff from before never panned out, and I'm not sure when it'll be revisited. Internal civil war discussion also came up when we were looking at the stress code and miserable forts. But I'm not sure. Over the course of the army stuff, which is happening after the release gets cleaned up and villains get sorted, there will be a lot of new army UI and mechanisms, and things will become tempting from various directions I suspect, especially if the player is given a freer hand to mess about with their own civ.
Quote from: LordL
So the question is: have you ever thought of playing as an intelligent magical artifact?
We have various odd notes, some regarding what sorts of objects generally we'd want to allow. I remember one weird brainstorming triangle averaging between items and creatures and landforms, trying to capture as many possibilities as we can so that the code can remain 'future-proof', but I don't recall specifically if we considered intelligent items as a player option (we'd certainly considered them as a thing.) Waiting at the bottom of a river for 2500 years seems like it would need some kind of speed-up option, anyway.
Quote from: Alu
In the recent update it said, people tend to worship frequent attackers of the same kind. Is this where it ends, or does/can it go further?
like i.e. a contract involving sacrifice of humans or cattle in exchange for peace/protection or something?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8382675#msg8382675
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8382815#msg8382815
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8382821#msg8382821
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8382878#msg8382878
Rumrusher: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8383284#msg8383284
As suggested by the replies, nothing very interesting happens currently on top of what has already been mentioned (initial beliefs, prophets forming a simple religion, which can then spread as usual, etc.) I didn't check for shrines. The abstract religious infrastructure for megabeast religions increases, but I'm not sure it results in shrines, and I'm not sure if the resulting shrines have dice and what would happen if you roll them. Perhaps nothing, though megabeasts do have spheres attached so it might just go with it. We'll have to wait for adv mode to be updated!
Quote from: SammyLiimex
Does this new version address the super annoying issue of all military dwarves losing their assigned rooms every time you send them on a mission?
Not yet. There are a lot of bugs to fix.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
would it be possible within the next version to define megabeast worshipping religions on entity.txt? Or are they entirely by design w.g circumstantial?
It would be a new feature push to do anything formal in the entity files. The w.g. stuff initially happens at the historical figure level, and any religions that are formed later by prophets happen in the usual way (piggy backing off the civ def.)
Quote from: clinodev
Are the changes to farming depth based, or specifically surface soil and cavern based?
Have there been changes to farming that make irrigated stone plots on arbitrary levels less effective?
Encouraging players to dig a little deeper is lovely, but not at the expense of the Deep Plots that provide for the Dwarven Wine drank by the master smiths working at magma forges just above the lowest levels, when they take their rest.
In this general context, I've also been askedby dirty hill dwarves:
Will the changes will make actual outdoor plant surface farming less effective?
Yeah, it requires the actual cavern surface. Have been contemplating ways to allow people to farm elsewhere, while still requiring some undersurface contact. This could involve, say, a soil gathering zone to place/improve a plot elsewhere, or something to do with irrigation. It's not just that we want people to dig a little deeper, we want the caverns to matter at all. Without several changes they might as well just be walled up whenever you find them, which is really not great. Also notable, the underground 'poor soil' farms work, they just aren't as good, and have to be much bigger to function as before.
Outdoor plant farming is unchanged.
Quote from: eerr
don't get me wrong, goo rain and dust are both deserving of an evil embark.
but I miss the challenge of dealing with all the nasties that came with certain biomes.
Stuff like roaming undead animals and flying hungry heads that scour the earth hunting anything living.
did you remove standard evil areas intentionally?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8384735#msg8384735
Yeah, FantasticDorf is correct, though I've already forgotten the details. I don't remember specifically why regular zombies/evil creatures etc. were a casualty of this, or if they exist anywhere outside of demon/necro/mummy influence zones. We moved the nightmare stuff to certain of them, but of course that doesn't really come up in the fort (we could have bogeyman in those regions attack isolated dwarves sometimes and just ignore the day/night part of it if we were cruel I suppose.)
Quote from: FantasticDorf
On the topic; with the changes being made to sustainability away from shallower layers to "more rich" farmland beneath what are your thoughts on the current state of cavern wildlife, and are we likely to see any biome alterations/isolated spheres in the caverns for the next version?
I'm going to save everything like that for the map rewrite/magic release now, I think. Sometimes it's fun to throw in surprises, and we have a few for this upcoming release (on top of the return of more robust underground animal people we've already mentioned), and it may happen again before magic, but it's all ultimately going to be gutted so there shouldn't be too much time spent there.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Are there any plans to improve the state of Dwarven recidivism in game? I see there are changes being made to the current stress system, will any of these improve matters?
A dwarf that gets thrown in prison for starting fights will likely only get worse while in prison, no matter how crazy expensive ritzy you make said prison.
The stress system has changed a lot, and my impression is that situations like this in general can be handled a little better now. But they still won't like being in prison all that much!
Quote from: Deno
If I remember correctly, when talking about the myths&magic update, you mentioned procedurally generated races and worlds that may not include dwarfs. Does that mean that fortress mode will be expanded to make all civilizations playable regardless of what race they are? Are there going to be mechanical or technological differences between different races and civilizations?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8385449#msg8385449
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8385472#msg8385472
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8385504#msg8385504
Yeah, we'd have to make more critters playable for sure, and there'd naturally be differences. At the very beginning, before the first release, things would obviously start all being very dwarf-like, since that's our starting point, and then it's a matter of expanding and restricting to make the differences arise. Anybody's guess how different they feel on the first magic release. I imagine there'll still be quite a bit of residual 'dwarf feel' for the other/procedural start options, with some striking differences, and that they'll then continue to grow apart.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
We have pump screws which convert dwarves labor into power for the sole purposes of pumping fluids, but why don't have a device for converting dwarves labor into power in general, like a treadmill?
Yeah, there was a point some time after screwpumps where animal power was considered, with some kind of treadmill / conan-wheel-for-animals situation of some kind, but we never got to it. I'm not sure when we'll get a chance.
Quote from: clinodev
With all that in mind, are you considering expanding the site selection search for Premium? It seems like a low-effort, high return change, and would act as more of a difficulty lever than many other changes. Searching for sedimentary layers [edit: or really much better, particular metals and minerals] would produce a far higher chance of good sites, for instance, than "shallow metals".
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8385616#msg8385616
clinodev (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8385644#msg8385644
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8385669#msg8385669
So there's a whole chunk of site finder left to do that straddles Stage 2/3. The main thing for us is just making it more responsive, but we can consider other stuff while we are there. I agree shallow metals isn't satisfying at all.
Quote from: clinodev
have you considered asking the "Do you want to do a tutorial?" question at the beginning of worldgen and locking the default "tutorial" experience to reasonable settings like "small" and "short"? This would go a long way towards discouraging the standard new player impulse to say, "I have a decent computer, let's choose Large and Very Long, heck, all max settings!" which leads to frustratingly long worldgens [Edit: and necromancer death worlds, and so on].
I dunno, this feels like a little too much, attaching the tutorial to world generation, though I'm not sure why. Maybe it's not a bad idea overall. I have some warnings on those options, the ones which cause worldgen to take longer than a minute, though yeah I'm sure some people will ignore them.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Though DFhack is obviously seperate, what do you think of the filtered polled data in parallel to your current work on the steam release?
Yeah, Alexandra gave us a related reddit link. There's certainly a lot of relevant information for us. Any point on toil reduction is important of course, and we haven't handled a lot of stuff that's in the survey for the release. The military and labor are notably different now, but farming/nest-boxes/etc. aren't really. Tracks are a little easier to make now, but we still need a track inspector. And so forth! It's a lot of good stuff.
Post by: clinodev on July 01, 2022, 03:54:37 am
Post by: Rumrusher on July 01, 2022, 05:32:51 am
Yeah, FantasticDorf is correct, though I've already forgotten the details. I don't remember specifically why regular zombies/evil creatures etc. were a casualty of this, or if they exist anywhere outside of demon/necro/mummy influence zones. We moved the nightmare stuff to certain of them, but of course that doesn't really come up in the fort (we could have bogeyman in those regions attack isolated dwarves sometimes and just ignore the day/night part of it if we were cruel I suppose.)
having experience the current version bogeymen the only good way this would come up to a fort mode player is if they play adv mode to summon a bunch then use one of the few vanilla ways to keep them around long enough to show up to harass the folks in fort mode(when they switch back to fort mode), though this does lead to the scenario of your dwarven citizens watching one lone (spider or experiment, or resurrected intel undead) adventurer wander to the fort at night spawning a bunch of night critters only to talk to a bunch of them and then die on the spot... or walk under some roof and settle down in the fort while a bunch of the citizens unlucky to be on the nightmare evil biome surface when this mess started now has to deal with a bunch of trapavoid dodgy critters that shapeshift.
so a challenge for anyone willing to set it up for their fort.
do wanna say thanks for keeping bogeymen in the game and the polymorph interaction open the door for some fun testing and experiences with how they function in a fort setting, both as a foe and as a friend.
Post by: brewer bob on July 01, 2022, 06:43:56 am
Post by: voliol on July 01, 2022, 03:03:41 pm
Post by: Doorkeeper on July 02, 2022, 10:28:14 pm
upd: upon further inspection the tiles inside the individual hillock structures are actually made of cavern floors... so it looks like they're just deep farming, technically. not shallow farming as implied by location.
Although as you've mentioned in your most recent response, the hill dwarves could have gathered the "improved" soil from the mountainhome. That's my headcanon for now, at least.
How would that work anyway, if you were to add a soil gathering zone? Since soil is a material and is the same regardless of depth, plus cavern floors are currently just rock overlaid with mud. Would the rock/mud gathered from a cavern have a special flag for plot improvement use?
upd2:
Spoiler: screenshot (click to show/hide)
Post by: clinodev on July 03, 2022, 04:42:26 am
Although as you've mentioned in your most recent response, the hill dwarves could have gathered the "improved" soil from the mountainhome. That's my headcanon for now, at least.
How would that work anyway, if you were to add a soil gathering zone? Since soil is a material and is the same regardless of depth, plus cavern floors are currently just rock overlaid with mud. Would the rock/mud gathered from a cavern have a special flag for plot improvement use?
Perhaps we'll discover pigs and poultry will convert muddied stone into cavern floors. Pigs in particular were iron age cultivator's champions, widely used to clear small plots for horticulture. They'll uproot and "plow" a plot of woodland, clearing tangled briars, digging up rocks, toppling saplings, and small trees, preparing the soil while providing fertilization and soil aeration. Irish small tenants and cottiers were still using the method in the 19th and into the 20th century. They'd finish digging what they reasonably could of potatoes and other edible roots, then turn the pigs into last years plot, and plant the pig's old yard. Poultry will clean up a lot of what pigs miss.
I can imagine dwarves moving livestock from plot to plot like this, and pigs sure do like mushrooms! Perhaps some cavern beasties could be assigned a plowing flag as well, drunians look like they might enjoy a good root while watching for easier food to steal, and I could imagine draltha doing it without really intending to!
It would be a clever way to use animal fertilizer without dealing with fertilizer products.
Another "new farming" question: How does a potash fertilized muddied stone/soil plot compare with cavern plots? How about with potash fertilized cavern plots? Some cleverness with the numbers could make potash fertilization useful for more than specialist early quarry bush cultivation.
(clinodev spent much of his childhood bewailing the fate that put him on a farm, and half of his adulthood kind of wishing he could go back. So it goes.)
Post by: Eric Blank on July 03, 2022, 07:40:31 pm
This is what my family used our sow for, and she was very effective. The chickens help keep the insect pests down but they'll uproot your plants to do it. Pig feces is so good plants will grow in it which the pig ate. She ate a squash and grew her own squash plant and then ate the squash it grew.
Perhaps we'll discover pigs and poultry will convert muddied stone into cavern floors. Pigs in particular were iron age cultivator's champions, widely used to clear small plots for horticulture. They'll uproot and "plow" a plot of woodland, clearing tangled briars, digging up rocks, toppling saplings, and small trees, preparing the soil while providing fertilization and soil aeration. Irish small tenants and cottiers were still using the method in the 19th and into the 20th century. They'd finish digging what they reasonably could of potatoes and other edible roots, then turn the pigs into last years plot, anplant the pig's old yard. Poultry will clean up a lot of what pigs miss.
Post by: scriver on July 04, 2022, 03:36:44 am
Edit: finally we will sneak in the feces feature after all
Post by: Bloodwarrior on July 06, 2022, 01:49:45 pm
2 how quickly is progress going on premium and any time frame for it
3 once magic and myth update comes out in what ways can during gameplay can a deity manifest
Also I’m having trouble changing this to lime green
Post by: voliol on July 06, 2022, 03:57:51 pm
1. When will the development page on the dwarf fortress site be updated.
2 how quickly is progress going on premium and any time frame for it
Also I’m having trouble changing this to lime green
The "[/color]" token has to be on the other side of the text, like a right parenthesis, but I fixed it for you in case you don't frequent this thread.
2. "How quickly" is a tricky wording, but I would say progress is being steadily made. From the Release Roadmap from February (https://steamcommunity.com/games/975370/announcements/detail/3099043827445055733), and various other sources where they seem to be leaning towards an Adventure-mode-less initial release, along with the progress they've shown, I would guess sometime this fall, or at latest early 2023. It is anybody's guess though. Blind has another interview with Tarn later this month (July 14) where I hope the question comes up, so we might know better then.
Post by: Immortal-D on July 08, 2022, 12:29:33 pm
Post by: Waterlimon on July 08, 2022, 12:53:29 pm
Post by: Rose on July 08, 2022, 06:28:11 pm
Will steam version have the option to display water depth as 1-7? Not necessarily numbers but at least different tile image?It does! There's been numerous devlogs showing this off.
Post by: UselessMcMiner on July 08, 2022, 07:02:56 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on July 08, 2022, 08:02:02 pm
Post by: UselessMcMiner on July 08, 2022, 09:03:23 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 09, 2022, 07:15:44 am
Oh, and I've also noticed many bandit forts being continually declared war on by random civilizations, why is this? Is this to cull bandit populations? Because as far as I can tell it doesnt have a major effect on fort populations and instead results in clutter in legends mode with the 1991th pillaging of a random bandit fort being noted.
I usually turn bandits off by setting to 0 on the entity file so more mercs can move in with more world impact (just being hired out is legendsmode contributive for battle etc), but overall bandits are pretty shabby and one more reason i never got as deep into adventuremode because it hampers the scripting side of the roguelike mode, and break the quests they're involved with (some random kobolds for instance in my most major ragequit for adventuremode invalidated the quest by colonizing the town somehow and making it unfufillable to drive the probably outcast refugee bandits away, i never go into adventuremode other than to firstperson goof around really.)
I did have a open mantis report (here (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11667)) that described in detail that the castles are lacking a sort of throne-room so can't be annexed by AI but if you conquer them directly as a fort it become your own direct holdings skipping the administrator step too, so thats my own hypothesis. So yeah, just hope Toady clips the bug while doing the rounds for a smoother experience.
Post by: TheFlame52 on July 09, 2022, 08:41:36 am
I usually turn bandits off by setting to 0 on the entity file so more mercs can move in with more world impact (just being hired out is legendsmode contributive for battle etc), but overall bandits are pretty shabby and one more reason i never got as deep into adventuremode because it hampers the scripting side of the roguelike mode, and break the quests they're involved with (some random kobolds for instance in my most major ragequit for adventuremode invalidated the quest by colonizing the town somehow and making it unfufillable to drive the probably outcast refugee bandits away, i never go into adventuremode other than to firstperson goof around really.)This bug is one of my biggest pet peeves, so I'm glad to hear there's a workaround.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on July 10, 2022, 04:05:33 pm
I'd expect the technology cut-off to remain at about 1400 even if technology is procedural. That would mean electricity is out of the question, but magic opens a completely different can of arcane worms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery
Quote
"The Baghdad Battery is the name given to a set of three artifacts which were found together: a ceramic pot, a tube of copper, and a rod of iron. It was discovered in present-day Khujut Rabu, Iraq, close to the metropolis of Ctesiphon, the capital of the Parthian (150 BC – 223 AD) and Sasanian (224–650 AD) empires, and it is believed to date from either of these periods."
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 11, 2022, 03:00:26 am
Yes, and steam powered toys existed in ancient times as well. However, neither of these were actually applied.I'd expect the technology cut-off to remain at about 1400 even if technology is procedural. That would mean electricity is out of the question, but magic opens a completely different can of arcane worms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_BatteryQuote"The Baghdad Battery is the name given to a set of three artifacts which were found together: a ceramic pot, a tube of copper, and a rod of iron. It was discovered in present-day Khujut Rabu, Iraq, close to the metropolis of Ctesiphon, the capital of the Parthian (150 BC – 223 AD) and Sasanian (224–650 AD) empires, and it is believed to date from either of these periods."
Post by: Fikilili on July 11, 2022, 09:22:26 am
1. You often mention the famous "Map Rewrite" that will happen... Soon-ish? And although with a name as foreboding as that, it must be very important to the game, what exactly is there to rewrite? What will the map rewrite do/change regarding map/world generation? What will it mean for modders?
2. Regarding culture; symbols and colors don't have the same meaning depending on the culture. For example the color black in Europe is attached to death and grieviances, whereas in China, it usually associated with prosperity and good health. Are there any plans to add cultural differences in DF?
3. Regarding Technology; every civilization seem to have access to the same level of technology no matter what age it is or how far in time the game takes in place. This means that even at the dawn of dwarfkind, they already figured out how to make wacky contraptions, but ten thousand years later, goblins still haven't put one and two together and figured out how to make drawbridges. Do you have any plans regarding technology evolving with time?
BTW, Blind, if you're reading this, it's pronounced "FEE-KEE-LEE-LEE"
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 12, 2022, 01:33:50 am
BACK WITH A FRESH BATCH OF QUESTIONS
1. You often mention the famous "Map Rewrite" that will happen... Soon-ish? And although with a name as foreboding as that, it must be very important to the game, what exactly is there to rewrite? What will the map rewrite do/change regarding map/world generation? What will it mean for modders?
2. Regarding culture; symbols and colors don't have the same meaning depending on the culture. For example the color black in Europe is attached to death and grieviances, whereas in China, it usually associated with prosperity and good health. Are there any plans to add cultural differences in DF?
3. Regarding Technology; every civilization seem to have access to the same level of technology no matter what age it is or how far in time the game takes in place. This means that even at the dawn of dwarfkind, they already figured out how to make wacky contraptions, but ten thousand years later, goblins still haven't put one and two together and figured out how to make drawbridges. Do you have any plans regarding technology evolving with time?
BTW, Blind, if you're reading this, it's pronounced "FEE-KEE-LEE-LEE"
Almost got it, just need that 'lime' prefixture on the green /color, and you can fit them all in the same pallete.
1. You often mention the famous "Map Rewrite" that will happen... Soon-ish? And although with a name as foreboding as that, it must be very important to the game, what exactly is there to rewrite? What will the map rewrite do/change regarding map/world generation? What will it mean for modders?
Arcs move slow, Map rewrite begins the roundabout mark of the 'Big Wait' towards the magic arc if you follow development, which is likely to ruin the honeymoon after the initial phases of stabilizing post release and the army arc (if im transcribing what i remember and read correctly, im very tired this morning), but here's to hoping it will be a painless affair that offers plenty of opportunity to play well into 49. or whatever version culminates, in a stable engaging fashion.
Speaking independently as a modder, i look foward to what Toady can manage and if theres any hardcoded junk that can be opened up, like editing biomes directly, sites being more usable to having more locations, more interesting types of sites in general. A very small subset of the community don't exactly moan, but lament some of the prefixtures that always generate certain conditions in worldgen, a atmospheric biome/planetary controller so we can roleplay like its on Mars with no humidity anywhere to make snow in supercold deserts would be nice.
2. Regarding culture; symbols and colors don't have the same meaning depending on the culture. For example the color black in Europe is attached to death and grieviances, whereas in China, it usually associated with prosperity and good health. Are there any plans to add cultural differences in DF?
Its worth mentioning Elves react differently in a minor way to spheres, particularly connected Titans, because the NATURE civilized value makes them interested in trees & great animals, so losing a Titan to a marauding beast-hunter is a very sad event according to references of conversations in adventuremode even amongst dwarves, moreso in elf circles.
So having a value like MORTALITY govern overall response to funuary practices and how they'd wish grim-death upon their enemies may iron out their attitudes and practices but that's just me spinning a hypothetical solution. On colors and connotations im not particularly sure, it might go, overall all the primordial evil and good are red and blue, and eventually if spheres get colors it might look like a technicolor petticoat on presentation.
3. Regarding Technology; every civilization seem to have access to the same level of technology no matter what age it is or how far in time the game takes in place. This means that even at the dawn of dwarfkind, they already figured out how to make wacky contraptions, but ten thousand years later, goblins still haven't put one and two together and figured out how to make drawbridges. Do you have any plans regarding technology evolving with time?
I'd expect the technology cut-off to remain at about 1400 even if technology is procedural. That would mean electricity is out of the question, but magic opens a completely different can of arcane worms.
There aren't as far as i can divine from Toady's archaic replies any plans, but technological progress does pseudo-happen through the frame of "Scholarly" work, there are two relevant but unrealised discoveries for physical objects but aren't yielded in any form. Modding mostly covers the rest when players port to new futuristic, historic or alternative setting, despite teething issues asked before about practical limitations that prevent dwarves talking over computers/mobile flip-phones/fax machines or firing repeating miniguns at each other (most other janky things end up solved).
You'll hit that scholarly technological research limit after a long pondering while, but the most players will probably be manging at the moment is making even more complex fortress systems to utilize the game world, until Toady makes a to-scale recreation of the sparrow light-door from "The Hobbit", by coding in the speed of light (i say figuratively in jest but who knows?). Completely saying nothing like PatrickLundell mentions wisely about magic assisted tech like wands, foppy hats (and imbued artifacts) and eventual work-tools which will have to include a expansive list.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 12, 2022, 03:17:09 am
The purpose of the Map Rewrite is to allow for a number of improvements as well as to allow for new features that currently aren't reasonable to implement. This list is not exhaustive, but may provide an indication of what's it includes:
- Support for the loading of different Z levels separately. This means Adventure Mode wouldn't have to load all the layers of rock below, and would also mean that excursions from a fortress (as trade/war parties, entry into other dimensions/across portals in the same dimension, etc. would be feasible without slowing things down to a crawl. It's more or less necessary to support player activities in multiple areas concurrently.
- Support for multiple maps (such as the normal world and another dimension).
- Support for portals connecting non adjacent parts of the map to each other, both on the same map and to different maps. This can also support maps that wrap around (moving over the edge to the west causes you to enter the east edge of the map, resulting in a cylindrical world, or even wrap around north to south as well as east to west, resulting in a shape that doesn't exist in the real world). It will NOT support spherical worlds, because of the mess caused by trying to turn a sphere into a grid with equally spaced and sized tiles (World maps create enormous distortions close to the poles, which doesn't matter to the real world people as nobody lives there).
- Support for moving "terrain", such as boats and lifts, floating/flying islands, etc.
- Support for sphere influence on terrain/flora/fauna, which probably also supports magic influence over the same things.
- Other support for future expansion. The light/heavy aquifer implementation is a little odd because the data structures have run out of bits to store more properties in. Note that a lot of things the rewrite will support won't actually be implemented until much later, in later arcs. Portals, when they are implemented, will start with one way portals where stuff just appear on the player side, with no access to or view of the other side, for instance.
The Map Rewrite is the first part of the Big Wait, with the second part being the initial implementation of Myth & Magic, which will make use of some of the things permitted by the Map Rewrite. When asked whether the Big Wait could be split up into a Map Rewrite and a Myth & Magic phase a number of years ago, Toady didn't see any point in it. The Premium tangent may change the circumstances, but if it does, it probably won't impact anything until it actually has been experienced (the Premium version decision has already led to the decision to have parallel support/bug fix/minor content development of the released version with the development of the new version, and the longer the Long Wait progresses the more of the new current version content will have to be thrown away and replaced with corresponding content in the next version, resulting in it being implemented twice. At some point it might be considered less work to switch to the Map Rewritten baseline. However, that's purely my speculation).
The Long Wait will be long. An optimistic guess would be 3 years, while pessimistic ones can be considerably longer.
It can be noted that we're still quite a long way from the start of the Long Wait, it's possible it's still further away now than it was when the Premium tangent was embarked on, as there's a lot to be done before it can start (again, the list is probably not complete, and may contain errors as well):
- The Premium release will have to be released (obviously).
- The Premium release bug fixing and immediate problem fixing phase taken care of (this may well take longer than usual, given that the Premium release contains the commercial Premium version, which may require considerably more support and polish than releases have received in the past).
- Implementation of things cut from the release that aren't intended to be cut from the game (Adventure Mode and the Classic versions have been mentioned as candidates for release content cutting of this type).
- Finishing the Villains tangent.
- Improved sieges/army stuff.
- I think there's at least one more point I've forgotten...
Post by: Mr Crabman on July 12, 2022, 09:02:13 am
Note that a lot of things the rewrite will support won't actually be implemented until much later, in later arcs. Portals, when they are implemented, will start with one way portals where stuff just appear on the player side, with no access to or view of the other side, for instance.
I don't see why this would have to be the case; sure, getting both locations loaded at the same time would have to come later because it's a much harder thing, but surely players could be able to send things/people through portals and have it work:
- in fort mode, similar to raids, or things moving off the embark map edge in general. Anything that enters the portal gets turned into abstracted "world map" stuff.
- in adventure mode, similar to quick travel, or teleportation (which similarly seems trivial).
Both seem kind of trivial enough to implement once portals are in, on account of them basically being "step on this tile to do something that can already be done in the game".
They're have to be the "blind" portals that you can't see to the other side with, but two-way movement seems doable enough... As long as the portals are all in the same dimension; if other dimensions aren't coded/playable in the first release of portals, it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to venture into them; but then, it could still be that the stuff that came through in the first place could "return" to whatever state they were in before (whether that in some abstracted form like nonloaded histfigs or "common" populations, or just nonexistence) if they went through.
When asked whether the Big Wait could be split up into a Map Rewrite and a Myth & Magic phase a number of years ago, Toady didn't see any point in it.
I'm surprised he didn't; community-sized bug testing seems to be a good enough reason. Also, presumably the rewrite won't literally produce the exact same structure as now; some of the changes just from the map rewrite itself (like performance improvements from not loading all z-layers, or things like cave rivers, and 3d ore veins) would likely be appreciated by many.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 12, 2022, 12:47:31 pm
Long Wait split: I assume Toady considered re-implementing the old world gen, current races, and some early spheres is too much wasted work when the myth generation is going to replace the world gen to a large extent. Personally I think bug testing and retaining the audience's interest would be worth it, but I don't have insight into Toady's thought processes, nor his knowledge of what he's going to change and how.
Post by: Putnam on July 12, 2022, 01:46:15 pm
Post by: delphonso on July 12, 2022, 05:42:17 pm
I've been wondering about a few nuances to this:
1. Are books and named items treated in the exact same way as other artifacts? (I reckon so, as the game tends to treat them the same way with the 'L' artifacts screen.)
2. Any changes to how 'hidden' is handled, or how artifacts are scrambled after destruction? I've made 2 attempts at destroying books and finding them again and both have failed. I haven't been able to find a proper artifact that was destroyed either. (Ignoring copies of books, which can be destoryed)
Edit: we've started a community fort about this, so we might figure it out on our own. Any info on how artifacts are hidden and discovered again would be interesting. I noticed in the XML dump that lost artifacts are at -100000 z level, which suggests they won't be found by traditional 'wandering around drunkenly' methods.
Also a completely unrelated question:
3. When two sites occupy the same world-tile, the 'c' menu will only show one of those sites and the other is inaccessible to raids/missions unless you send a mission for a person/artifact that might be there. Has this been dealt with in the new and upcoming UI stuff?
Thanks to you and the community for any answers to this!
Post by: clinodev on July 15, 2022, 04:35:24 am
Quote
"I have a few questions related to world generation, which turned out longer than I anticipated. Apologies in advance for being so wordy!
As I understand, the prevailing winds are based on the real-life Polar, Ferrel, and Hadley circulation cells, but are they generated to match the pole(s) of the world? Could there be a world generation option to set prevailing winds to be homogeneous across the whole map? Something like the existing option to set a north pole, south pole, both, or neither, but have options for the wind to come mostly from the north, northeast, east, and so on.
What scale do the temperature settings use in the advanced worldgen options? I've heard that the bug with pole-less worlds having extremely hot ""temperate"" biomes is already a known issue, and I know that the actual temperature is affected by rainfall and elevation, but I'm curious what the scale is supposed to be since it doesn't seem to match the ""degrees Urist"" used elsewhere in-game.
Also related to temperature, any rough idea of when we might get more fine-grained distinctions than ""temperate"" and ""tropical""? Maybe even have yearly minimum and maximum temperature values for each region, and have each plant and animal have its own tolerances? At the very least it would be nice to have ""subtropical"" biomes so that we don't have koalas in subarctic climates.
I love that in this game you can generate a world with a very realistic distance/area scale if you have no poles and set a very narrow temperature range. However, there are a few problems that arise when trying to make it as realistic as possible (so as to avoid questions about the geometry and scale of a whole planet the size of even a large DF world, and for the fun of recreating real-life locations), which is why I asked about the wind directions and temperature issues, and my last question is about the vertical scaling.
While it's possible to realistically recreate real places at a 1:1 scale horizontally (a Large DF world is nearly 395000 metres across and could fit Tasmania), you have to either flatten the real elevation range to fit in into DF's 400 2.8m z-levels, or find an area where any salt water is less than 278m deep and the highest elevation above sea level is 840m, and deal with the awkwardness of having the ""mountain"" biome anywhere that's more than 560m above sea level even if there's no big difference in biome IRL. (For reference, Mount Everest is about 9000m above sea level and Challenger Deep is about 11000m below it, or about 3200 and 4000 z-levels respectively.) So basically what I'm asking here is how doable it would be to have deeper oceans and taller mountains. Having a larger world volume to simulate would be a performance issue, but could the map have the same number of z-levels everywhere and have them offset depending on the elevation of the region or something? Isn't that how it already works?"
It doesn't look nearly so big here!
Post by: Quietust on July 15, 2022, 08:38:53 am
- Support for portals connecting non adjacent parts of the map to each other, both on the same map and to different maps. This can also support maps that wrap around (moving over the edge to the west causes you to enter the east edge of the map, resulting in a cylindrical world, or even wrap around north to south as well as east to west, resulting in a shape that doesn't exist in the real world).Technically, that shape does exist in the real world, at least sort of - it's a torus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus), more commonly recognized as a Donut.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on July 15, 2022, 09:20:04 am
That's true, but i think they may have meant that it's not a real planetary shape.- Support for portals connecting non adjacent parts of the map to each other, both on the same map and to different maps. This can also support maps that wrap around (moving over the edge to the west causes you to enter the east edge of the map, resulting in a cylindrical world, or even wrap around north to south as well as east to west, resulting in a shape that doesn't exist in the real world).Technically, that shape does exist in the real world, at least sort of - it's a torus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus), more commonly recognized as a Donut.
Post by: King Mir on July 15, 2022, 06:03:17 pm
Technically toruses are bigger in the outer diameter than the inner and are curved, which does not happen with north and south being linked like this. A triangle's angles on a torus does not add up to 180 degrees.- Support for portals connecting non adjacent parts of the map to each other, both on the same map and to different maps. This can also support maps that wrap around (moving over the edge to the west causes you to enter the east edge of the map, resulting in a cylindrical world, or even wrap around north to south as well as east to west, resulting in a shape that doesn't exist in the real world).Technically, that shape does exist in the real world, at least sort of - it's a torus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus), more commonly recognized as a Donut.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on July 16, 2022, 05:06:54 pm
Post by: Ziusudra on July 16, 2022, 09:23:28 pm
Which version of C++ is Dwarf Fortress written in?It's been 20 years in the making ... so ... all of them.
Quote from: https://stackoverflow.blog/2021/12/31/700000-lines-of-code-20-years-and-one-developer-how-dwarf-fortress-is-built/
DF is some combination of C and C++, not in some kind of standard obeying way, but sort of a mess that’s accreted over time.
Post by: kontako on July 19, 2022, 06:28:20 am
Has any function for right-clicking been implemented?
Post by: Putnam on July 19, 2022, 03:45:26 pm
Which version of C++ is Dwarf Fortress written in?
C++11 at least, since I seem to recall a comment on the usage of auto.
Which version of C++ is Dwarf Fortress written in?It's been 20 years in the making ... so ... all of them.Quote from: https://stackoverflow.blog/2021/12/31/700000-lines-of-code-20-years-and-one-developer-how-dwarf-fortress-is-built/DF is some combination of C and C++, not in some kind of standard obeying way, but sort of a mess that’s accreted over time.
Certain stuff in C++ just ain't backwards compatible. I've tried updating Cataclysm DDA to C++17 and it's daunting.
Post by: BreadnRoses on July 20, 2022, 05:37:35 pm
There seem to always be "quality of life" mods which come out and I was wondering what the policy would be on if these mods get adopted into the game?
I realize DF is probably a deeply cherished personal project but I also know that the devs have things they'd rather work on.
Has this been given any thought or an answer? Thanks.
Post by: Eric Blank on July 21, 2022, 01:54:54 am
I'm very excited about the Steam release for many reason but one will be the mods.
There seem to always be "quality of life" mods which come out and I was wondering what the policy would be on if these mods get adopted into the game?
I realize DF is probably a deeply cherished personal project but I also know that the devs have things they'd rather work on.
Has this been given any thought or an answer? Thanks.
Questions for Toady in green!
Toady has always been reluctant to incorporate mods directly into DF, for legal/financial reasons, and with DF becoming legally sold as a product on Steam that's going to be even less likely. But, things that are good ideas and "low hanging fruit" tend to get added eventually, just not as they may have appeared in mods.
Post by: voliol on July 21, 2022, 03:02:21 am
From my experience it is mostly mods of the DF Hack kind making it in, like the manager improvements some year ago and now auto-labor in the upcoming release. It has been a while afaik since any content was added to the raws that could already be with the existing tokens. The closest and most recent would be when they got community help to add the remaining wood densities.
Though that said they have different tools for adding stuff, instead of tweaking stress propensity values in the raws they can rework the stress system itself. Or instead of making all aquatic creatures live-birthers they could fix the issue of nest boxes not working underwater (if that is still an issue, it has been sometime according to Modest Mod).
Post by: clinodev on July 21, 2022, 05:56:23 am
They're always really reluctant to "steal" other people's designs (as I've learned trying to push them to wholesale adopt PatrickLundell's embark-assistant) but fortunately often there is only really one good solution to game design issues.
From the screenshots we've seen, it looks like many cool things are coming in, and there will be room for many more cool things to come in from the community through DFhack and the Steam Workshop. The DFhack team have been working hard the last month or so preparing to support Premium, which is very cool!
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 22, 2022, 03:01:17 am
When it comes to the Embark Assistant, its design is based on DF's find function that's then expanded upon based on what various people may want to search for. The ideal state of affairs would be that it was made redundant as DF provided all the functionality in its finder. Thus, I'd be delighted to see all or some of the functionality incorporated in the game.
When on the train of trying to push utilities into the game, tweak_map.lua is a script that acts as an alternative to the built in (and hopelessly useless mouse only driven) World Painter. The key difference is that apart from allowing the user to set PSV values, it also allows the player to specify the biome, at which point it adjusts the affected PSV values to about the middle of the range. In addition to allowing players to select biomes (among the legal ones for the latitude), it also displays the current biome (using letter coding, but tiles would allow that to be done using biome tiles). If there's any logic in the script or ideas in it that would be useful in a brand new World Painter, feel free to use it. Scrapping a utility because it's no longer needed is good indeed.
Post by: kontako on July 22, 2022, 04:06:50 am
Does this colouring carry over to statue and engraving descriptions in fortress mode?
Do functional hyperlinks?
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 22, 2022, 07:50:28 pm
Just the nitpicky one thing i want to pick up on though, question directed at Toady or Threetoe in this instance: If the caravan limit triggers have been altered, will suddenly losing the contents before they leave the map still cause as significant a relationship rift or has the tolerance/mechanics behind trade-relations been changed?
Because forcibly-small caravans running aground to adverse conditions and simple wildlife encounters getting too close seems like perfect-storm noob entanglement that's going to cause players issues; when the home civ attacks and ceases further relations for no apparent reason than the loss of traded capital with the fort fronting the blame (many times also hard to diagnose, and taking scripting than any ingame mechanism to fix). Typically a fortress's starting trust relations close to 0'ish in the first caravan is usually vital to direct diplomacy with any nation they interact with in 47.05 and many preceding versions.
2. Is first contact more formal in the planned new release, or can you still send delegations of unwashed dwarves applying demanding tribute missions to contact traders across the continent? The mentioned already used strategy would probably be more effective in the new build because of how better the UI is for trade/caravan mangement in general.
3. And co-joint question on the same topic as trade: does this open back up the path to the merchant nobility returning to the game in more force than just offmap merchant companies?
Probably just me overthinking it, but i am amused by the idea of a spymaster like noble who writes up little scribble money schemes, pays off legitimate hired goons and handles greater money loanlending (if spymaster ever gets completed to compare that imagined role to)
Ill be honest though, some parts of it left me confused and sometimes a tiny bit worried over change of such a vital part of fortress sustainability as my questions probably infer, but im still hopeful the changes are a safe addition to pass over some gripes and cheesy trade tactics.
Post by: DG on July 22, 2022, 08:10:09 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 23, 2022, 06:58:15 am
I advise caution in any attempt to make nobility more central to the game without significant changes to nobility, which I don't think you have time to make. Nobility is currently not fun or interesting. Players kill them not because they're sadistic but because it's the most direct way to remove an unfun mechanic.
I mean, sometimes its sadism. But generally yes, there's not much worth of attachment to nobles other than to show them off in their little fishtank. I think the inclination to attribute them to more things the release seems to be working towards kind of resolves this but this is a valid point i guess on time restraints to the time nobles actually need.
Post by: Broms on July 24, 2022, 11:35:10 am
Post by: dikbutdagrate on July 24, 2022, 05:05:28 pm
The divine metals are pretty boring as they only feature procedural generation which assigns them a name based on their corresponding deity's sphere. And their material properties are always the same.
Without turning this into a suggestion, I think simple things like random numbers for the material properties, and maybe one or two wacky things from a list would go a long way in generating some good stories out these obscure metals. It's certainly difficult for me to say that I would not thoroughly enjoy laying a war hammer of 'whatchamacallitonium', that has a persistent temperature of something like 672 °F, out in an open field with nothing to guard it. And just having the dwarves sit back and watch the results of kobolds and giant kea birds attempts to sneak off with it.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on July 24, 2022, 07:20:37 pm
Post by: Doorkeeper on July 26, 2022, 11:57:49 am
Hello! I have a bit of a difficulty settings question: is there currently a way to tweak how common visits that petition for mercenary/temple/tavern type are? I ask because I really enjoyed having a squad of humans/goblins/outsiders in the prior version and since when merc companies were added to world gen I haven't seen a single mercenary petition. That is something that would be really cool to have an option of having again some day for roleplaying/etc. Thank you for reading
This has less to do with the difficulty settings than it has to do with world generation. If the world didn't generate a lot of merc companies or if you embarked in an area with fewer mercs, then you won't encounter them very often. Same with other visitor types. But no, in the current release there isn't a direct way to change the rate of mercs visiting or petitioning.
When might we expect some random properties to be assigned to the divine metals? Any chance of we could see a small update for the divine metals prior to far off Myth and Magic update? Perhaps in a not entirely dissimilar manner to the prototype for magical powers that intelligent undead were given.
The divine metals are pretty boring as they only feature procedural generation which assigns them a name based on their corresponding deity's sphere. And their material properties are always the same.
Without turning this into a suggestion, I think simple things like random numbers for the material properties, and maybe one or two wacky things from a list would go a long way in generating some good stories out these obscure metals. It's certainly difficult for me to say that I would not thoroughly enjoy laying a war hammer of 'whatchamacallitonium', that has a persistent temperature of something like 672 °F, out in an open field with nothing to guard it. And just having the dwarves sit back and watch the results of kobolds and giant kea birds attempts to sneak off with it.
Divine materials are only used by angels and divination blessings that gift armor or weapons. They're nonexistent in fort mode, excluding the elf trade mat bug. Given their rarity, they probably won't be revisited until development puts them front-and-center. Divine mats had a chance to be updated when divination was added, and it didn't happen.
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 26, 2022, 02:46:49 pm
Divine materials are only used by angels and divination blessings that gift armor or weapons. They're nonexistent in fort mode, excluding the elf trade mat bug. Given their rarity, they probably won't be revisited until development puts them front-and-center. Divine mats had a chance to be updated when divination was added, and it didn't happen.
Well for that matter it is possible to discover a vault, then confer that information to your fort to raid it (sadly no loot other than a slab and a lot of fighting to be had), or drop your fortress with DFhack ontop of it and clear it out manually that way. Otherwise correct, they're just nice gloss for a unique weapon.
Post by: Rekov on July 26, 2022, 03:44:22 pm
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 26, 2022, 06:19:30 pm
With the steam release's redesign of activity zones, will there be support for activity zones that exist across multiple z-levels? This would be especially useful for outdoor pastures on hillsides, where there isn't enough room on a single z-level to support many animals.
I mean its niche but that's a good example, architectually more z level relevant zones could have room for vertical features like religious frescoes and raised off the floor gargoyle like creepy statues where nobody can topple them. A multizone painter is already on the cards for painting rooms within rooms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265542;topicseen#msg8265542) so you can sub-divide a hospital without painting over each other, or just draw it in abstract without the furniture.
Personally if multi-z zones arrive, observational decks (for observer sport or just a chillout spot) have been suggested for a while now and other expanded room/area functionalities would probably fit in snug.
Post by: Rekov on July 26, 2022, 08:02:28 pm
Post by: Schmaven on July 29, 2022, 07:48:47 pm
Does discovering the caverns have a negative impact on FPS due to cavern critter pathfinding / flowing water etc.? Or do those calculations just happen normally regardless of whether or not the caverns have been revealed?
Post by: Mr Crabman on July 30, 2022, 06:10:16 am
Does discovering the caverns have a negative impact on FPS due to cavern critter pathfinding / flowing water etc.? Or do those calculations just happen normally regardless of whether or not the caverns have been revealed?
I'm pretty sure the calculations happen anyway; one of the things the eventual map rewrite is supposed to do, is enable *not* doing these calculations before they are revealed.
Post by: Urist McSadist on July 30, 2022, 06:41:49 am
1.Do you have any favorite generated myths you're willing to share?
2.How is the economy eventually going to work in our forts?
3.After the Magic update, is hell gonna go away depending on the myth?
4.How far away are we from getting fortress mode mounts?
5.Can we reassign war animals in the steam version?
6.Are we ever going to get the option to surrender to a siege and become part of the enemy civ, and if yes, when could we expect that?
Post by: voliol on July 30, 2022, 07:32:20 am
3.After the Magic update, is hell gonna go away depending on the myth?
The short answer is yes.
The longer answer can be found in DF Talk #25 (https://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_25_transcript.html#25.13):
Quote from: Toady One, DF Talk #25
Yeah, so here are the questions: So we have a question from recon1o6. The question is:The "next question" is this one (https://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_25_transcript.html#25.16), which I'm not putting as quote here as it is both longer and has a more spread out answer, but they basically confirm the current setup should be one possibly myth-result.
When we do add the Myth & Magic release, when we add demons to it, is there going to be a possibility of worlds where the demons are not trapped in the underworld, that they're actually roaming around on the the the outside? Because what we were talking about when we talked about these other races, not just demons and things but angels and forest spirits, and all that, we just kind of talked about them as if they're out there doing their thing, or they're off in some plane somewhere, or they're wherever. And indeed that's the idea. The idea is that there would be a number of situations. It wouldn't always be the underworld exactly as it is with, you know, - spoiler alert! - adamantine spires coming up from a kind of underworld place that's described as being a different place, like the sky is described as different when you go down there and do the weather description, so it is sort of a different place, but it's really just kind of under too - it's the underworld. And it always works a certain way. Yeah. And we're planning on having just different possibilities there. Although in the next question we'll address that.
Post by: Randomizer on July 30, 2022, 08:41:49 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on July 30, 2022, 08:49:25 am
How long will it be before attacking armies will have the ability to dig or otherwise enter a walled off fort?
I don't have a real timeline, but that's supposed to come in the siege/armies update (which according to Toady, may or may not be merged into the villains part 2 update, which may or may not be merged into the Adventure mode update for Premium DF). So maybe 1-3 years?
Post by: Eric Blank on July 30, 2022, 02:47:55 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on July 30, 2022, 10:55:31 pm
Regarding animal people, is there any control on how many show up or how frequently? Some people hate them with a burning passion and don't want them at all, afterall
Lol, yeah. Just delete them from the raws, or change their population number to 0.
Hey T-dog, whats up with this dwarf and soap?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: voliol on July 31, 2022, 08:06:47 am
Regarding animal people, is there any control on how many show up or how frequently? Some people hate them with a burning passion and don't want them at all, afterall
The animal people don't have any special tokens to them that would make them targetable by the game in the way that megabeasts have MEGABEAST, etc.. Doesn't mean Toady couldn't add one, but considering how easy and straightforward the mod is, and installing mods will be easier with Workshop, maybe it isn't worth it.
Post by: Doorkeeper on July 31, 2022, 04:34:56 pm
Hey T-dog, whats up with this dwarf and soap?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://youtu.be/_KUt07R0I0k?t=215
What are his traits? My guess is it has to do with personality. Personality is a primary factor in determining a dwarf's emotions + needs. Maybe bathing is associated with orderliness (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Personality_trait#ORDERLINESS).
Post by: dikbutdagrate on July 31, 2022, 04:47:51 pm
Hey T-dog, whats up with this dwarf and soap?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://youtu.be/_KUt07R0I0k?t=215
What are his traits? My guess is it has to do with personality. Personality is a primary factor in determining a dwarf's emotions + needs. Maybe bathing is associated with orderliness (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Personality_trait#ORDERLINESS).
Lol that clip was awesome.
Uhh... about the dwarf though, he appears to have fought the soap water all the way to the bitter end.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Doorkeeper on July 31, 2022, 05:21:35 pm
Hey T-dog, whats up with this dwarf and soap?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://youtu.be/_KUt07R0I0k?t=215
What are his traits? My guess is it has to do with personality. Personality is a primary factor in determining a dwarf's emotions + needs. Maybe bathing is associated with orderliness (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Personality_trait#ORDERLINESS).
Lol that clip was awesome.
Uhh... about the dwarf though, he appears to have fought the soap water all the way to the bitter end.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
rip
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2022, 05:31:20 am
Quote
Quote from: DoorkeeperHillocks have shallow underground farms. Will the changes to soil farming affect crop yields in hillocks? More generally, does the sim now track whether a site has shallow sub farms or deep sub farms, and does crop production for that site correspond accordingly?
upd: upon further inspection the tiles inside the individual hillock structures are actually made of cavern floors... so it looks like they're just deep farming, technically. not shallow farming as implied by location.
Although as you've mentioned in your most recent response, the hill dwarves could have gathered the "improved" soil from the mountainhome. That's my headcanon for now, at least.
How would that work anyway, if you were to add a soil gathering zone? Since soil is a material and is the same regardless of depth, plus cavern floors are currently just rock overlaid with mud. Would the rock/mud gathered from a cavern have a special flag for plot improvement use?
upd2: haven't noticed this before until now, but i've dug out an indoor surface soil layer in fort mode, and the resulting floor tiles are labeled as cavern floor. Wondering if this was also changed as part of the farming overhaul. "Cavern Floor" just indicates that the tile attribute is subterranean, as far as i can tell (it's not displayed if vegetation is growing on it). But still wondering if the changes you've made affect this label since players could read "Cavern Floor" and confuse shallow soil for the cavern surface. I'm also not sure anymore if this means the hillock farm plots are counted as cavern/deep farming, since I initially assumed they were because the tiles were labeled as cavern floors.Quote from: clinodevAnother "new farming" question: How does a potash fertilized muddied stone/soil plot compare with cavern plots? How about with potash fertilized cavern plots? Some cleverness with the numbers could make potash fertilization useful for more than specialist early quarry bush cultivation.
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8386588#msg8386588
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8386817#msg8386817
Are you talking about world gen production? Everything there works differently from fort mode, and we haven't updated anything. There's no production in other parts of the world after play begins.
Yeah, if we went into this further and added a zone, we'd need to clarify further what deep soil actually means, since it doesn't exist currently except as the grass floor of the underground plants, and as the mud if it happens to be in the right spot. The effect is linked to the natural open cavern layers, so it's not indicated in the floor name but the layers are also kind of hard to miss, at least at first.
Currently, surface is just divided by four. You can also fertilize cavern plots.
Quote from: Bloodwarrior
1. When will the development page on the dwarf fortress site be updated.
2 how quickly is progress going on premium and any time frame for it
3 once magic and myth update comes out in what ways can during gameplay can a deity manifest
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8387665#msg8387665
1. It just hasn't felt like a thing since we are in stasis more or less until we return to the villains release.
2. Things are going well! Still trying for autumn. Between the tutorials, art, keyboard stuff, music, and bugses, we have our hands full, but it doesn't feel like there are any Vague Unknown Chunks left anymore either.
3. Ha ha, who knows! We want the possibility of them being more active and tangible, but that could attach to anything from them having a standard body to them being a weather event or a plane or something, and we'll only hit certain possibilities on the first pass, since there's so much to do. I'd anticipate bodied ones at least.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Regarding the changes to farming (and I suppose subterranean effects in general); Will there be any changes to the way 'light-dark' tiles are calculated? Right now, once a tile is exposed to the surface it becomes permanently 'light', even when covered again, meaning you can neutralize cave adaptation without risk.
I haven't changed this, and I'm not really sure how to do it reliably and quickly. It feels like it would need to investigate the entire area around for suitable materials somehow, to avoid towers or even cottages from becoming subterranean (rather than 'inside'). Just looking at the old subterranean area is insufficient since the player might strip mine for a bit before building their outdoor structures, so it actually needs to understand what's going on somehow.
Quote from: Waterlimon
Will steam version have the option to display water depth as 1-7? Not necessarily numbers but at least different tile image?
Rose: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8388327#msg8388327
Yeah, we have this in two ways currently. The transparency of the depth, and now there's also a button you can press next to the minimap that turns the actual numbers on and off (there's also one to put arrows on ramps.)
Quote from: UselessMcMiner
I've noticed that custom modded bloodsucker races with their own entities perform bloodsucker purges. I dont think this is a bug since it makes sense for other races to purge bloodsuckers but is them doing it to themselves intended?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8388357#msg8388357
Ha ha, Eric Blank is correct that we didn't design the game around this tag being used on entire civs. I imagine there are a variety of problems like this, and as broader civs are introduced, they'll likely work themselves out.
Quote from: UselessMcMiner
Oh, and I've also noticed many bandit forts being continually declared war on by random civilizations, why is this? Is this to cull bandit populations? Because as far as I can tell it doesnt have a major effect on fort populations and instead results in clutter in legends mode with the 1991th pillaging of a random bandit fort being noted.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8388492#msg8388492
TheFlame52: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8388504#msg8388504
No, this isn't intentional, and hopefully it'll be cleaned up at some point. We were going to sort out some fort issues when we transitioned to the adv side of the villains release, since forts were going to be important for parts of that, but then we had to delay the whole thing.
Quote from: Fikilili
1. You often mention the famous "Map Rewrite" that will happen... Soon-ish? And although with a name as foreboding as that, it must be very important to the game, what exactly is there to rewrite? What will the map rewrite do/change regarding map/world generation? What will it mean for modders?
2. Regarding culture; symbols and colors don't have the same meaning depending on the culture. For example the color black in Europe is attached to death and grieviances, whereas in China, it usually associated with prosperity and good health. Are there any plans to add cultural differences in DF?
3. Regarding Technology; every civilization seem to have access to the same level of technology no matter what age it is or how far in time the game takes in place. This means that even at the dawn of dwarfkind, they already figured out how to make wacky contraptions, but ten thousand years later, goblins still haven't put one and two together and figured out how to make drawbridges. Do you have any plans regarding technology evolving with time?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8389432#msg8389432
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8389456#msg8389456
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8389537#msg8389537
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8389577#msg8389577
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8389593#msg8389593
Quietust: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8390698#msg8390698
BlueManedHawk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8390710#msg8390710
King Mir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8390864#msg8390864
1. I think the replies cover this pretty comprehensively and accurately. There are lots of capabilities we want but don't have. The editor side of the myth/magic stuff also means that a lot of the map/sites will be available for modders in new ways as well.
2. On top of stuff mentioned in replies (or I might have missed them), there are also randomized positions in human and goblin societies, and humans have randomized values, but yeah, there's a lot to be done here that just doesn't even exist in the game (so it can't be differentiated either.) The current plan is to address some of this in the entity/scenario/etc. update after the magic stuff.
3. This is similar to the cultural differences, with the somewhat irritating addition that we have all that scholarly stuff that just doesn't intersect with actual game mechanics (except in a few specific and pretty unimportant ways, like the types of books which are available to write). Ultimately the hope is to have those completely tied together (not that all techs need to be invented by scholars in a library, and of course Prometheus-type critters could also teach/gift people stuff), but this of course would have a profound impact on the game and need to approached in some prudent way, since the only initial effect of it would be to take mechanics away from people.
Quote from: delphonso
According to Dwarf Fortress Talk 7, and comments you've made in this thread, artifacts are truly indestructible (if atom smashed, etc, they'll just be "hidden" and scrambled during claim/reclaim or adventurer visits.)
I've been wondering about a few nuances to this:
1. Are books and named items treated in the exact same way as other artifacts? (I reckon so, as the game tends to treat them the same way with the 'L' artifacts screen.)
2. Any changes to how 'hidden' is handled, or how artifacts are scrambled after destruction? I've made 2 attempts at destroying books and finding them again and both have failed. I haven't been able to find a proper artifact that was destroyed either. (Ignoring copies of books, which can be destoryed)
Also a completely unrelated question:
3. When two sites occupy the same world-tile, the 'c' menu will only show one of those sites and the other is inaccessible to raids/missions unless you send a mission for a person/artifact that might be there. Has this been dealt with in the new and upcoming UI stuff?
Thanks to you and the community for any answers to this!
1. There's a flag on them distinguishing "crafted" artifacts from other named objects. This flag came up later, so it isn't applied everywhere, but it does allow me to draw distinctions.
2. Doesn't look like it. It's still using the same placement function for hidden objects and artifacts that it expects in the area but which don't have assigned locations. However, if the item blasting function is called on an artifact, it adds a destruction event, and on top of the hidden flag, the "utterly destroyed or transformed" flag, which should prevent it from coming back - and it looks like it doesn't care if it's crafted or otherwise. Artifacts being indestructible by default appears to be gone. The destroyed flag is also added if the artifact is used in a job to make something, for books/scrolls in a world map library that is destroyed post w.g., or books/scrolls in any building that is destroyed in w.g.
3. Nope! It should be easy to handle with a new popup, but there's never time to do everything. I can aim for doing it by the time the army stuff makes it much more important to get right.
Quote from: Sebastian
I have a few questions related to world generation, which turned out longer than I anticipated. Apologies in advance for being so wordy!
As I understand, the prevailing winds are based on the real-life Polar, Ferrel, and Hadley circulation cells, but are they generated to match the pole(s) of the world? Could there be a world generation option to set prevailing winds to be homogeneous across the whole map? Something like the existing option to set a north pole, south pole, both, or neither, but have options for the wind to come mostly from the north, northeast, east, and so on.
What scale do the temperature settings use in the advanced worldgen options? I've heard that the bug with pole-less worlds having extremely hot ""temperate"" biomes is already a known issue, and I know that the actual temperature is affected by rainfall and elevation, but I'm curious what the scale is supposed to be since it doesn't seem to match the ""degrees Urist"" used elsewhere in-game.
Also related to temperature, any rough idea of when we might get more fine-grained distinctions than ""temperate"" and ""tropical""? Maybe even have yearly minimum and maximum temperature values for each region, and have each plant and animal have its own tolerances? At the very least it would be nice to have ""subtropical"" biomes so that we don't have koalas in subarctic climates.
I love that in this game you can generate a world with a very realistic distance/area scale if you have no poles and set a very narrow temperature range. However, there are a few problems that arise when trying to make it as realistic as possible (so as to avoid questions about the geometry and scale of a whole planet the size of even a large DF world, and for the fun of recreating real-life locations), which is why I asked about the wind directions and temperature issues, and my last question is about the vertical scaling.
While it's possible to realistically recreate real places at a 1:1 scale horizontally (a Large DF world is nearly 395000 metres across and could fit Tasmania), you have to either flatten the real elevation range to fit in into DF's 400 2.8m z-levels, or find an area where any salt water is less than 278m deep and the highest elevation above sea level is 840m, and deal with the awkwardness of having the ""mountain"" biome anywhere that's more than 560m above sea level even if there's no big difference in biome IRL. (For reference, Mount Everest is about 9000m above sea level and Challenger Deep is about 11000m below it, or about 3200 and 4000 z-levels respectively.) So basically what I'm asking here is how doable it would be to have deeper oceans and taller mountains. Having a larger world volume to simulate would be a performance issue, but could the map have the same number of z-levels everywhere and have them offset depending on the elevation of the region or something? Isn't that how it already works?
We don't do anything that interesting with winds, but yeah, the directions alternate over the latitudes and depend on the pole settings, and yeah, a no-pole world is treated like a N+S pole world. The wind direction could be made more complicated, or have additional options, sure, it just hasn't been a priority since nothing really depends on it much right now.
The base world temperature is just an arbitrary scale. The conversion is local temp = world temp * 0.75 + 10000. I have little record of how this came about. I probably started with a 0 to 100 fractal and then adjusted it based on elevation/etc/etc, and then mapped it over to the fahrenheit + 9968 or wtvr scale whenever that came up, with the 0.75 factor added to make it line up better with what I wanted for the biomes. There are some comments in the conversion function about targets I had for freezing and scorching places, anyway.
Adding additional biomes is complicated, since they are used in a lot of places in various ways. We were going to mess with them (leaning toward weird magical ones) with the map stuff, and we'll see if it shakes things up. But I have to be careful about how regional animal populations are created, and it can be slow/expensive to prepare matches with a proliferation of biomes.
It's hard to add more verticality because when there are steep slopes (or places where we would have had cliffs before), it all has to be loaded in memory currently. Part of the map rewrite is getting rid of this requirement - this means that there'd be areas where no sky is loaded (only the underground with no way to get up to sky), and loaded areas where there are effectively bottomless pits. Both of these present problems that need to be overcome. A steep mountain slope or cliffside might have both at once.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
Which version of C++ is Dwarf Fortress written in?
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8391215#msg8391215
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8392031#msg8392031
Yeah, the responses cover it. Mishmash, definitely got some mileage out of auto some time after it arrived.
Quote from: kontako
Has any function for right-clicking been implemented?
Right now right-clicking closes stuff. There are lots of menus opening and closing and it's nice not to have to click Xs or reach for ESC. The only place I've felt tension with this is where I'd sometimes want right click to erase (say, during designations), but the erase mode works well enough for that.
Quote from: BreadnRoses
I'm very excited about the Steam release for many reason but one will be the mods.
There seem to always be "quality of life" mods which come out and I was wondering what the policy would be on if these mods get adopted into the game?
I realize DF is probably a deeply cherished personal project but I also know that the devs have things they'd rather work on.
Has this been given any thought or an answer? Thanks.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8392565#msg8392565
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8392582#msg8392582
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8392609#msg8392609
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8392872#msg8392872
I think the replies more or less cover this question as well. We listen to modders when they have questions etc., have set up some memory addresses etc. for DF Hack etc., and modders try fixes for design problems before we have a chance to get to them. I'm not sure how much things will change - it's not a matter of explicit policy as it is just time and etc., though occasionally there are issues like "spreadsheets vs. no spreadsheets" where we have a different point of view than the community surrounding the mod. We'll certainly continue adding little improvements, however they come about.
Quote from: kontako
Previously when you had shown the hyperlinks, figures and entities were coloured according to their kind.
Does this colouring carry over to statue and engraving descriptions in fortress mode?
Do functional hyperlinks?
Whether or not legends mode is going to be hooked up to fortress mode is an open question! There are the concerns about spoiling vampires and such, which we should probably be a little careful about, but there's nothing really wrong with rewarding investigation either (though it does feel a little easy to just be able to open up your fort's history and see the vampire migrant right there with their identity name given away.) The technical side isn't hard now - the text construction and render code just needs to receive an extra flag to enable everything, and the input would also need to be enabled similarly. So mostly just a question of time, with a pretty comprehensive payoff in this case.
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Just finished reading the spoilerific Zachpost over the main page, I think i got the jist of it. ;D
Just the nitpicky one thing i want to pick up on though, question directed at Toady or Threetoe in this instance: If the caravan limit triggers have been altered, will suddenly losing the contents before they leave the map still cause as significant a relationship rift or has the tolerance/mechanics behind trade-relations been changed?
Because forcibly-small caravans running aground to adverse conditions and simple wildlife encounters getting too close seems like perfect-storm noob entanglement that's going to cause players issues; when the home civ attacks and ceases further relations for no apparent reason than the loss of traded capital with the fort fronting the blame (many times also hard to diagnose, and taking scripting than any ingame mechanism to fix). Typically a fortress's starting trust relations close to 0'ish in the first caravan is usually vital to direct diplomacy with any nation they interact with in 47.05 and many preceding versions.
2. Is first contact more formal in the planned new release, or can you still send delegations of unwashed dwarves applying demanding tribute missions to contact traders across the continent? The mentioned already used strategy would probably be more effective in the new build because of how better the UI is for trade/caravan mangement in general.
3. And co-joint question on the same topic as trade: does this open back up the path to the merchant nobility returning to the game in more force than just offmap merchant companies?
Probably just me overthinking it, but i am amused by the idea of a spymaster like noble who writes up little scribble money schemes, pays off legitimate hired goons and handles greater money loanlending (if spymaster ever gets completed to compare that imagined role to)
Ill be honest though, some parts of it left me confused and sometimes a tiny bit worried over change of such a vital part of fortress sustainability as my questions probably infer, but im still hopeful the changes are a safe addition to pass over some gripes and cheesy trade tactics.
1+2+3. It's still the same more or less for the next release. We aren't able to add a lot of new diplomacy features (the ones I can think of are goblin artifact diplomacy and elves being a little different in savage areas, aside from the wagons and end-game stuff), and the capabilities of the player aren't really different, so it doesn't feel particularly worse.
Quote from: Broms
Hello! I have a bit of a difficulty settings question: is there currently a way to tweak how common visits that petition for mercenary/temple/tavern type are? I ask because I really enjoyed having a squad of humans/goblins/outsiders in the prior version and since when merc companies were added to world gen I haven't seen a single mercenary petition. That is something that would be really cool to have an option of having again some day for roleplaying/etc. Thank you for reading
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8393980#msg8393980
If I recollect, the chance of a solitary mercenary joining a company also depends on how much of a loner they are, and that might also be skewed too much - this could be another thing you tweak, though it'll impact a few other parts of the game (but shouldn't matter for humans etc. too much.) But I haven't added an option to alter more general world generation properties.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
When might we expect some random properties to be assigned to the divine metals? Any chance of we could see a small update for the divine metals prior to far off Myth and Magic update? Perhaps in a not entirely dissimilar manner to the prototype for magical powers that intelligent undead were given.
The divine metals are pretty boring as they only feature procedural generation which assigns them a name based on their corresponding deity's sphere. And their material properties are always the same.
Without turning this into a suggestion, I think simple things like random numbers for the material properties, and maybe one or two wacky things from a list would go a long way in generating some good stories out these obscure metals. It's certainly difficult for me to say that I would not thoroughly enjoy laying a war hammer of 'whatchamacallitonium', that has a persistent temperature of something like 672 °F, out in an open field with nothing to guard it. And just having the dwarves sit back and watch the results of kobolds and giant kea birds attempts to sneak off with it.
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8393980#msg8393980
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8394052#msg8394052
The replies apply to the currently-released version, but divine items make more of an appearance in fort mode in the next release. I haven't changed anything about their properties yet, they just act as treasures and as equipment with properties between steel and adamantine if I remember. Certainly there's now a bit more dev potential in that direction with them around more commonly in play. But I'm not sure what'll happen with so much on the table - the myth/magic update is obviously the place for them to shine.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
How much do you worry about accidentally sacrificing gameplay value when pursuing other goals?
Ha ha, you might have to be more specific. There are a lot of things that need to be balanced. Mostly we'd been sacrificing usability through the years, and now we've switched gears to bring some of that back, but we haven't had to make many mechanical changes for that reason.
Quote from: Rekov
With the steam release's redesign of activity zones, will there be support for activity zones that exist across multiple z-levels? This would be especially useful for outdoor pastures on hillsides, where there isn't enough room on a single z-level to support many animals.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8394113#msg8394113
Rekov (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8394126#msg8394126
It's not coming for general zones for Steam, since it's a bit too complicated to pull the z variable out of zones or to make zones hierarchical. Locations (which FantasticDorf mentioned) like hospitals etc. can have subordinate zones, which makes it come for free. There'll be some solution along these lines, but it'll also need to be respected in the interface, which might look different for the various zones. I don't know immediately that all 3D rectangular solids dragged out should be treated the same, for instance, between pastures and other zone types. But the main obstacle is just the lack of a z range in the zone object, and how much code uses the single z height for them (generally, for all 'buildings', it comes up more than 1400 times it looks like.)
Quote from: Schmaven
I apologize if this isn't an appropriate question for the Future of the Fortress thread, but I've heard conflicting theories over the years and I haven't been able to figure it out in my varied embark attemps. Though I have seen reanimating biomes quickly fill up the caverns with many reanimated trogdolyte and crundle pieces moving about and getting stuck atop giant mushrooms.
Does discovering the caverns have a negative impact on FPS due to cavern critter pathfinding / flowing water etc.? Or do those calculations just happen normally regardless of whether or not the caverns have been revealed?
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395038#msg8395038
Yeah, Mr Crabman's right that the calculation are generally happening, open or not. I couldn't think of anything that would be open-the-caverns-specific + very slow, but after the latest interview, this came up in a conversation, and if I remember another element was possibly creatures trying to path through pet-forbidden doors when you open the caverns. Those doors don't exist anymore, since they caused FPS problems universally.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Do you have any favorite generated myths you're willing to share?
2.How is the economy eventually going to work in our forts?
3.After the Magic update, is hell gonna go away depending on the myth?
4.How far away are we from getting fortress mode mounts?
5.Can we reassign war animals in the steam version?
6.Are we ever going to get the option to surrender to a siege and become part of the enemy civ, and if yes, when could we expect that?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395048#msg8395048
1. I don't really have anything new to share here, and I think overall the prototype just isn't interesting enough that way. It's clear it'll work, but it needs more meat on the bone in a variety of ways; I stopped where I did with it since it needs to be integrated with the main code and that will require reworking it. What you can see in the video and elsewhere I've talked about it is about all the narrative variety you get there. The first actual release with myths will be much better.
2. Hard to say! It looks like by the time you get it, you'll be able to start your fort as an actual working magical temple, possibly with an underground sea where the ships sail out from your subterranean docks, with a society where laws and customs can change. Only then, you'll be able to slap some trinkets on a mule and send a dwarf with it off to a village to make some dwarf bucks (or use the ships, or have god do it or something.) This order is possibly odd, but this is the order we are currently working with. Everything is fine.
3. voliol covered this one. Having an underworld or punishment plane etc. won't be required, but overall that kind of thing should be pretty common.
4+5. I haven't changed anything here that I remember, and I'm not sure when I will.
6. This comes up from time to time, mostly in the context of the scenarios release, which would have the infrastructure needed to make this interesting. For the army release, if anything happened, it would just involve something like humans sticking a site administrator in your site, and I don't there'd be time with all that's on the table to make that interesting. On the other hand, if we do all of the villains plots from w.g. in fort mode, which is the plan, we'll end up with coups and other trouble, so who knows where it'll land - we'd speculated about letting you play through those in some fashion no matter the outcome.
Quote from: Randomizer
How long will it be before attacking armies will have the ability to dig or otherwise enter a walled off fort?
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395056#msg8395056
Mr Crabman is correct about this - the army stuff will address this, and the rough order is steam stuff (pre/post launch) -> finish villains -> army stuff, with any mixing where convenience/speed/betterment suggests it, as Mr Crabman mentions.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Regarding animal people, is there any control on how many show up or how frequently? Some people hate them with a burning passion and don't want them at all, afterall
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395210#msg8395210
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395317#msg8395317
Adding to the replies, depending on the irritation, another possibility is removing [CV_NEW_TAG:LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] from the animal person creature variation.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Hey T-dog, whats up with this dwarf and soap?
(picture of dwarf made miserable by soap)
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395377#msg8395377
No idea. Bliss and contentment should be the only available outcomes for soap baths. Misery should only come from confinement, break-ups/divorce, or hated jobs, for certain personalities.
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 01, 2022, 07:17:58 am
Quote from: DoorkeeperHillocks have shallow underground farms. Will the changes to soil farming affect crop yields in hillocks? More generally, does the sim now track whether a site has shallow sub farms or deep sub farms, and does crop production for that site correspond accordingly?
upd: upon further inspection the tiles inside the individual hillock structures are actually made of cavern floors... so it looks like they're just deep farming, technically. not shallow farming as implied by location.
Although as you've mentioned in your most recent response, the hill dwarves could have gathered the "improved" soil from the mountainhome. That's my headcanon for now, at least.
How would that work anyway, if you were to add a soil gathering zone? Since soil is a material and is the same regardless of depth, plus cavern floors are currently just rock overlaid with mud. Would the rock/mud gathered from a cavern have a special flag for plot improvement use?
upd2: haven't noticed this before until now, but i've dug out an indoor surface soil layer in fort mode, and the resulting floor tiles are labeled as cavern floor. Wondering if this was also changed as part of the farming overhaul. "Cavern Floor" just indicates that the tile attribute is subterranean, as far as i can tell (it's not displayed if vegetation is growing on it). But still wondering if the changes you've made affect this label since players could read "Cavern Floor" and confuse shallow soil for the cavern surface. I'm also not sure anymore if this means the hillock farm plots are counted as cavern/deep farming, since I initially assumed they were because the tiles were labeled as cavern floors.
Are you talking about world gen production? Everything there works differently from fort mode, and we haven't updated anything. There's no production in other parts of the world after play begins.
I think they mean to point out whether [INDOOR_FARMING] etc applies to the perception that hillocks and fortresses have their own fungiculture farms and must potentially have smaller/upscaled yields compared to aboveground farming communities. Although its relevant in the real world that mushrooms can grow with significantly less resources already, if the player was to try and grow corn (imagining for a moment there was no such restriction) it might struggle on the weaker soil and lack of sunlight.
Also too, i do believe you did make also a couple of statements and posts for dwarven-cheese being producible in W.G, so there is technically more things happening than before.
Post by: Doorkeeper on August 01, 2022, 09:46:49 am
You did also mention that you are cutting corners a lot for the newer stuff, so I should have taken that into account before asking, i.e. accurate wg farm production in hillocks is most likely a corner. I can understand why corners are being cut right now, given Premium work + deadline. And I've been incorrectly assuming that fort mode stuff is interconnected w/ world gen, when the two "modes" are very different. I mean, they are interconnected, just not how I first imagined.
Quote from: BrythonLexiWhat is presented publicly is that generated sites keep track of what they produce every week, such as milking or woodcrafting. I would like to know details of how this affects the world in general, but particularly:
- Items that adventurers are able to see and purchase in market stalls and shops of human towns, and trade depots of dwarven fortresses. Do those, and/or the existence of particular shops in general, get affected by such production?
- Caravans received in Fortress Mode. Are the products of those relevant civs generated spontaneously based on player need, or resource production and availability of the civilization sending merchants?
- Do those weekly production cycles continue post world-generation? For this question, that includes the 2 weeks between embarks/adventures, during Fortress Mode, and during Adventure Mode?
I imagine a "No" answer to mean that the items that exist at the end of world generation are all that will ever exist in Adventure Mode - that clearing a Mead Hall of items, then playing 10 years of a fortress, then returning to that Mead Hall in a new adventurer would still result in an empty Mead Hall. ...
It's a whole huge thing, way too big for what it does, so I can't really go into all of it here. There's a division of labor, lots of migration, the crops are tracked week by week, town expertise is tracked which results in the various shop divisions, and every resource and product is also tracked, including its source. This is why people in the market stalls in adv mode can yell about where the stuff comes from - all of those statements are factual.
As I recall, this includes not just all the purchaseable items in towns, but most of the furniture and food in buildings. If I recall, the dwarf forts only have beds in some of the bedrooms because their bed resource stockpile from worldgen had that many to provide. But of course there are a lot of cut corners too, especially for newer stuff - shrines for instance, with their statues and dice, are all generated rather than pulled from resource piles, and I believe that's also true of all doors.
Caravans are continuously arriving and new stuff isn't made, and it's a lot more stuff than the typical adventurer will grab, so their stuff all has to be generated. The goods do take local materials into consideration.
The weekly cycles stop after world gen. That's basically where I stopped way back during the caravan arc as far as I remember. Got world gen production in as a model for post world gen, but didn't start post world gen. And yeah, if you clear out the categories of objects that come from the worlgen stockpiles, they won't return.
Post by: Toady One on August 01, 2022, 03:49:33 pm
Post by: exdeath on August 01, 2022, 08:04:56 pm
According to tv tropes, it would be a duocylinder, a thing thats impossible in 3d.- Support for portals connecting non adjacent parts of the map to each other, both on the same map and to different maps. This can also support maps that wrap around (moving over the edge to the west causes you to enter the east edge of the map, resulting in a cylindrical world, or even wrap around north to south as well as east to west, resulting in a shape that doesn't exist in the real world).Technically, that shape does exist in the real world, at least sort of - it's a torus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus), more commonly recognized as a Donut.
Example of 3d developable surfaces are the oloid and sphericon.
I also heard Cone and cylinder are developable surfaces, but don't know what kind of cylinder and cone.
Post by: Putnam on August 01, 2022, 08:44:15 pm
Post by: voliol on August 02, 2022, 06:13:15 am
Quote from: Toady One
The replies apply to the currently-released version, but divine items make more of an appearance in fort mode in the next release. I haven't changed anything about their properties yet, they just act as treasures and as equipment with properties between steel and adamantine if I remember. Certainly there's now a bit more dev potential in that direction with them around more commonly in playBut now what could this mean? :o
That's not a question for next month, not that I'm sure it would be answered, because it seems like it might be !hidden fun stuff!. I'd much rather speculate, and then witness it in-game. Is it a return of the deep demonic fortresses? Gods upgrading the material of artifact weapons of ardent believers? Angelic raids?
Post by: delphonso on August 02, 2022, 07:25:09 am
Topologically, it's a torus, just one that you can't really put into a 3D space without overlapping or whatever. A mug is also a torus, and all that.
Dwarf Fortress is...mug shaped? It is Armok's will!
Post by: Tachytaenius on August 02, 2022, 10:35:53 am
Had seen "Reserach!" before when setting all 312 (are there more?) topics to known.
EDIT: Setting up a bug report on mantis, I think this is the wrong place most likely. This isn't really FotF stuff, sorry.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 02, 2022, 11:05:31 am
Post by: Paaaad on August 02, 2022, 01:25:22 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 02, 2022, 02:14:34 pm
Something that might, potentially, change things is the Myth & Magic introduction of more playable races, where humans are required for completely mundane worlds, but even that would be a tangential stretch.
Post by: Button on August 02, 2022, 02:45:49 pm
I'd like to be able to schedule some time off :D
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on August 02, 2022, 05:19:39 pm
Thanks for the answers Toady! Interesting that artifacts can be destroyed for good now. The wiki should be updated!Topologically, it's a torus, just one that you can't really put into a 3D space without overlapping or whatever. A mug is also a torus, and all that.
Dwarf Fortress is...mug shaped? It is Armok's will!
The dwarves think it’s an ale mug.
The humans think it’s a coffee mug.
The elves think it’s a mug of hot cocoa…
…And the kobolds think it’s shiny!
Post by: Eric Blank on August 02, 2022, 05:22:32 pm
Something that's bugging me a little: Why are the underground crops the ones effected by the changing seasons while the surface crops- the ones actually exposed to the changing weather and temperature- aren't? The conditions underground are really quite stable- hence wine cellars and root cellars.
Like Patrick said, there used to be underground seasons. In the 2D version, there was always a cave river in the mountain behind the fort, and every spring the river would flood the crops, so the crops available depended on the season. It never got updated when the z-levels got added and the flooding no longer happened, and then cave rivers and chasms got phased out when the current caverns got implemented. But crops still depend on the "seasonal floods" kinda. Which makes sense if the rock is porous enough that a significant amount of surface water drains down into them after every spring thaw. But thats not currently a thing in the game right now.
How much warning do you plan to give before the release of the new version? Will there be an official release date scheduled, or will you just drop it on us like in previous releases?
I'd like to be able to schedule some time off :D
Me too!
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 02, 2022, 06:00:32 pm
Something that's bugging me a little: Why are the underground crops the ones effected by the changing seasons while the surface crops- the ones actually exposed to the changing weather and temperature- aren't? The conditions underground are really quite stable- hence wine cellars and root cellars.
Like Patrick said, there used to be underground seasons. In the 2D version, there was always a cave river in the mountain behind the fort, and every spring the river would flood the crops, so the crops available depended on the season. It never got updated when the z-levels got added and the flooding no longer happened, and then cave rivers and chasms got phased out when the current caverns got implemented. But crops still depend on the "seasonal floods" kinda. Which makes sense if the rock is porous enough that a significant amount of surface water drains down into them after every spring thaw. But thats not currently a thing in the game right now.
If nothing else it just keeps a accurate check of the time for your seasonal cycles wherever you are. Only having 2 seasons underground like "Moist" and "Chilly" would be more difficult for new players to associate, and also to time crops.
Post by: kiiranaux on August 04, 2022, 04:18:19 pm
I know this is technically an emergent gameplay feature rather than a bug, but it's not one that actually enables any fun gameplay (except for roleplaying Zombie Apolcalypse), and it seems you guys have acknowledged that it's a problem. Thanks for reading.
(First time posting in FotF, let me know if I got anything wrong).
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on August 04, 2022, 04:36:42 pm
1: Once a creature is parsed from the raws, How do you represent it in memory(I'm ok with technical details)?
2: On the dev page (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), Automatons were mentioned as a possible feature. When could we reasonably expect their first appearance?
Thanks for the answers in advance!
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 04, 2022, 04:45:42 pm
On the dev page (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), Automatons were mentioned as a possible feature. When could we expect their first appearance?[
Probably myth&magic. That would be the most likely.
Post by: FloofyMomo on August 04, 2022, 11:21:26 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 05, 2022, 01:51:27 am
I was curious:1. The DF structures of DFHack maps most or all of the creature info, so you can find the info there (and you won't have to wait to the end of the month).
1: Once a creature is parsed from the raws, How do you represent it in memory(I'm ok with technical details)?
2: On the dev page (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html), Automatons were mentioned as a possible feature. When could we expect their first appearance(After or before Myth/Magic)?
Thanks for the answers in advance!
2. Like Mr. Crabman, I see Myth & Magic as a prerequisite for automata. They'd most likely require magic, and I doubt Toady would introduce more things that would have to be reworked by Myth & Magic without a very strong reason (and I fail to see that automata would be essential for anything that absolutely has to be introduced before that arc).
Post by: AvolitionBrit on August 05, 2022, 05:31:33 pm
1. Have you ever considered restrictions/segmentation on books in libraries ever and would you possibly consider it in the future, such as restricting individual books and/or a library on a certain topic like astrology in one library and chronicles in another
2. In regards to religions, will it be possible in the future for a player to found them, especially in terms of adventure mode, having a adventurer founding a religious cult, a splinter off from a already exisiting one or becoming leadership and making changes to an existing one.
3. At somepoint in the future will costal erosion be considered as a feature, so overtime the map changes, sea level rises, islands shifting together or breaking off. Sea volcanos forming islands. So sites might end up becoming lost under the ocean or burried in magma. I know its a big feature to implement but has it ever been thought about or considered before. As well as biome changes as the enviroment changes, like the expansion of a desert over time due to desertification or a forest becoming colder over time due to enviromental changes.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 06, 2022, 01:41:36 am
3. Biome changes already exist, although only to a very small extent (savage biomes are tamed over time in world generation due to influence from civilization, and evil can now spread from nodes (necro towers and new demon led goblin civs)). The map rewrite will make it possible to change terrain as well, both gradually as a result of sphere influence changes, and abruptly as the result of a spell. or a divine or natural cataclysmic event. Thus, it has been considered, but it remains to see when and how abrupt changes make their appearance (spheres battling it out is more or less a given, and although the number of sphere influence changing factors will probably be limited initially, the "battle" mechanics will probably have to be in there from the start).
Post by: AvolitionBrit on August 06, 2022, 07:35:40 am
3. Biome changes already exist, although only to a very small extent (savage biomes are tamed over time in world generation due to influence from civilization, and evil can now spread from nodes (necro towers and new demon led goblin civs)). The map rewrite will make it possible to change terrain as well, both gradually as a result of sphere influence changes, and abruptly as the result of a spell. or a divine or natural cataclysmic event. Thus, it has been considered, but it remains to see when and how abrupt changes make their appearance (spheres battling it out is more or less a given, and although the number of sphere influence changing factors will probably be limited initially, the "battle" mechanics will probably have to be in there from the start).
I know those kind of changes exist. I was talking about more natural changes such as temperature, sea levels, disasters, costal erosion and the like
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 06, 2022, 07:55:02 am
I know those kind of changes exist. I was talking about more natural changes such as temperature, sea levels, disasters, costal erosion and the like
At the very least, disasters are planned. Sea levels and temperature probably would be included in some sorts of disaster, but I don't know if it would happen in a gradual, "natural" way.
Post by: Nordlicht on August 06, 2022, 08:04:29 am
3. At somepoint in the future will costal erosion be considered as a feature, so overtime the map changes, sea level rises, islands shifting together or breaking off. Sea volcanos forming islands. So sites might end up becoming lost under the ocean or burried in magma. I know its a big feature to implement but has it ever been thought about or considered before. As well as biome changes as the enviroment changes, like the expansion of a desert over time due to desertification or a forest becoming colder over time due to enviromental changes.
I think this would be great if you put it into the Suggestion Forum. I think climate and island shifts would need different timescales like SimEarth. E.g. Tectonic Simulation instead of Diamond-Square.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 06, 2022, 08:15:52 am
I doubt erosion and "natural" sea level change would come into play, as that's generally happening on larger time scales than that of the game (and tectonic activities are much slower still), so unless the world's rules are different from our world I don't think there would be a point to add them. You could, of course, have some kind of rather chaotic world where things happen randomly or much faster than in the real world, in which case it would make sense to add such changes (but they'd come with a CPU cost, of course).
Post by: AvolitionBrit on August 06, 2022, 08:49:00 am
Post by: memmet on August 07, 2022, 01:50:28 pm
What does "Will the Myth & Magic arc significantly affect the dynamics of personality?" mean? Are you asking whether there will be some rewrite of the personality system?Will there be a personality rewrite? This seems connected to both play modes, the villains and army arcs, as well as my question below. Curious about bay12's thinking on personality.
2. Will creatures' bodies or behaviors ever change over generations? I read that creatures do inherit both appearance and attributes. Does this produce an evolutionary effect currently? Do cultural customs change over time, or will they?
3. A gameplay question: During a conversation in adventure mode, some people have a "Sluggish" attitude toward me. What does that mean?
Thank you for all that you do!
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on August 09, 2022, 02:03:52 am
It says that all towns start out as hamlets and then turn into towns under the right circumstances. What are those circumstances?
Also, it says that, for towns, of of +, *, #, or ☼ is used according to the population. For hamlets, are the distinctions between Æ and æ, and = and ≡ also based on population? If so, what are the required populations?
Also, is the list of population ranges for each level of town in the wiki (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Town) correct? If so, what determines whether a town with (for example) a population of exactly 1000 shows up as a + or a *?
Post by: Doorkeeper on August 10, 2022, 04:48:32 am
I’ve been reading the wiki, and I’ve got a few questions.
It says that all towns start out as hamlets and then turn into towns under the right circumstances. What are those circumstances?
Also, it says that, for towns, of of +, *, #, or ☼ is used according to the population. For hamlets, are the distinctions between Æ and æ, and = and ≡ also based on population? If so, what are the required populations?
Also, is the list of population ranges for each level of town in the wiki (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Town) correct? If so, what determines whether a town with (for example) a population of exactly 1000 shows up as a + or a *?
I wrote "under the right circumstances" at the time b/c I didn't know the cause(s) for a hamlet to gain a market + ascend to (or replaced by) a town. I wish I didn't word it like that b/c it implies there's more than one factor involved. I just didn't wanted to put down "for unverified reasons," I think. Should have just excluded the "why" part. Anyhow, since then I've observed that there can't be another market site within X world tiles. That's the only visual criteria I've seen, idk if there's other factors. I'll revise it to a more simple general statement for now. Link to original (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&oldid=263193) for reference.
For context: in worldgen if you pause at the right time and know where to look, you'll see a hamlet generate in a world tile where a future town will appear in a year or two. When pausing before history starts but after starting sites are placed, you'll notice that the starting human sites are hamlets. If you look at their history in legends, some towns had a mead hall that got replaced w/ a keep. Mead halls/keeps aren't constructed the instant the site gets created + hamlet-to-town conversion happens fast, so town-to-be hamlets usually skip out on the mead hall (i.e. they don't have the chance to build one before they become a town). Historical event type is 'replaced structure'.
Spoiler: mead hall legends screenshot (click to show/hide)
No, hamlet symbols aren't based on pop. It's on the hamlet (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Hamlet) and map legend (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Map_legend#Human_sites) pages, but æ/Æ are hamlets on hills and =/≡ are on grassland (flat) regions. There doesn't appear to be any distinction between æ & Æ or = & ≡; probably just alternate tiles like biomes, grasses, etc.
I ran some tests and the pop. ranges are mostly correct, but the overlaps were most likely a minor slip by the editor. It should be ≤999, 1000-1999, 2000-9999, ≥10000. It's fixed now.
There's a talk page on each wiki page where you can discuss about its contents, including any written info you want to confirm w/ other players. Though admittedly there's more active traffic here than there. There's also the subforum for gameplay questions.
I noticed a lot of gameplay-related questions being asked in the past several months/years. Token behaviors, formulas, exact values, etc. I thought Future of the Fortress was supposed to be about development and the roadmap. Not complaining though. Toady doesn't seem to mind.
Post by: Toboter on August 10, 2022, 08:47:03 am
I recently tried to roleplay a jeweler, but was simply unable to, because of the jeweler's workshop being completely inaccessible.
Are there any plans to make the crafting recipes from fort mode accessible in adventure mode?
Post by: Eric Blank on August 10, 2022, 07:46:59 pm
The good news is, even if you can't use more workshops you can add reactions that don't require a workshop pretty easily.
Post by: Putnam on August 12, 2022, 12:29:47 am
I was curious:
1: Once a creature is parsed from the raws, How do you represent it in memory(I'm ok with technical details)?
https://github.com/DFHack/df-structures/blob/master/df.creature-raws.xml
If you mean the unit, rather than its creature raws,
https://github.com/DFHack/df-structures/blob/master/df.units.xml
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on August 12, 2022, 08:13:24 am
I was curious:
1: Once a creature is parsed from the raws, How do you represent it in memory(I'm ok with technical details)?
https://github.com/DFHack/df-structures/blob/master/df.creature-raws.xml
If you mean the unit, rather than its creature raws,
https://github.com/DFHack/df-structures/blob/master/df.units.xml
Very interesting
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 12, 2022, 10:12:27 am
2. What sort of timeline are you thinking of for the releasing the raws/info for modders to prepare for updating?
3. Last we've heard about the roadmap plans were you decided on doing Adventure mode later, and are unsure about Arena mode; what's your position on the Steam Workshop and Achievements, which were also in an uncertain place?
4. Will the advanced world gen menu be in the initial Steam release?
5. Will the layer-fog color be changed? Blue makes it look like everything is flooded, at least underground.
6. Might something like the dragon randomizer (ie constrained randomness definable in raws, so that random things can be made to match "archetypes") ever exist for plants, materials, entities, interactions/magic, or other things that end up controllable?
7. What's the lore for why necromancers need to breathe, despite conquering all the other bodily needs (eating/drinking/sleeping)?
Post by: Eric Blank on August 12, 2022, 01:13:56 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on August 13, 2022, 01:22:51 am
Will the Myth and Magic arc significantly affect the dynamics of personality?Welcome to the forum.
Will creatures' bodies or behaviors ever change over generations?
/color]
Thank you for the game!
ToadyOne will tend to only answer questions that are directly related what they're currently doing.
When asking questions regarding the future development, he responds with 'Yea that sounds good.' or 'We'll see.'
Post by: voliol on August 13, 2022, 05:15:24 am
Will the Myth and Magic arc significantly affect the dynamics of personality?Welcome to the forum.
Will creatures' bodies or behaviors ever change over generations?
/color]
Thank you for the game!
ToadyOne will tend to only answer questions that are directly related what they're currently doing.
When asking questions regarding the future development, he responds with 'Yea that sounds good.' or 'We'll see.'
I tend to disagree. They seem to have a pretty good idea on what they want to do, at least in the coming few arcs like villains, army additions, and myth & magic. What they don't know, and what leads to "we'll see" type of answers, is which of these planned features will make it in, as once they reach an arc they have to prioritize. See e.g. the answers they've given on the map rewrite.
However, I would still clarify those questions if I were you, memmet. What does "Will the Myth & Magic arc significantly affect the dynamics of personality?" mean? Are you asking whether there will be some rewrite of the personality system? Or whether magic will be able to affect creature's mind, like charming spells and rings that make you evil? The former I do not know, the latter I know they have planned. The same goes for question 2, is it about evolution/mutations/selective breeding, or cursed bloodlines?
Of course, worst thing that could happen if you don't clarify is Toady answering "I don't understand, I'm afraid." and you'll have to ask it again. He also could totally get it.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on August 16, 2022, 05:52:47 am
How back compatible is the new version going to be with the old keyboard shortcuts? My hands remember which buttons to press even if my brain doesn't. Watching Zach's video fills me with confused terror.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 16, 2022, 06:05:27 pm
How does the look menu work now? Is there a quick way of identifying different types of stone to designate for mining, without having to use the look menu? I know what everything is at a glance with the ASCIIs, I'm worried I'll get confused by the artwork when looking for ores, mineral types, and so on.
How back compatible is the new version going to be with the old keyboard shortcuts? My hands remember which buttons to press even if my brain doesn't. Watching Zach's video fills me with confused terror.
1) they're already differenciable by color and tile in the screenshots, it'll probably just take some getting used to.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 17, 2022, 02:00:07 am
It will be unpleasant to relearn, but it should be possible and probably better in the end (although I'm sure there will be cases of using the "old" key for years to come).
Post by: Immortal-D on August 17, 2022, 08:49:01 pm
- Have you considered giving Legends Mode a similar GUI overhaul? (Possibly similar to the popular utility 'Legends Viewer')
- What about being able to use Legends Mode during Fortress Mode?
- Have you (and I suppose KitFox here) considered doing a promotional release several days before launch? Give a pre-release copy to streamers and the like.
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 18, 2022, 04:15:44 am
- What about being able to use Legends Mode during Fortress Mode?
He says it would be technically easy enough, the only problem is immersion issues, like it being too easy to unmask vampires for instance.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on August 18, 2022, 07:13:22 am
- On a related note, why do demons have the same [DIFFICULTY] as forgotten beasts and titans, despite definitely being generally usually pretty harder?
- On a related note to that one, would it be possible for procedurally-generated creatures to have different [DIFFICULTY]s depending on their properties?
Post by: voliol on August 18, 2022, 10:33:49 am
Quote from: The DF Wiki
DIFFICULTY | Increases experience gain during adventure mode. Creatures with a difficulty of 11 or higher are not assigned for quests in adventure mode.
Post by: pamelrabo on August 19, 2022, 02:47:14 pm
I guess you'll addres the most worrying bugs but after that, I mean.
You talk about development in a really casual way, like it's no big deal, but I'm pretty sure there's been a lot of stressful moments and a lot more will come with the release. I love the game, but no game is worth its creators' wellbeing.
If it's not too personal, ¿Have you ever felt you abused yourself pushing a release or hunting a bug? Is it difficult to handle the community's expectations and constant "when when when" questions?
Thanks for your attention and your work.
Post by: Paaaad on August 21, 2022, 11:05:30 pm
Post by: Putnam on August 21, 2022, 11:28:11 pm
With the Steam release in mind;
- Have you considered giving Legends Mode a similar GUI overhaul? (Possibly similar to the popular utility 'Legends Viewer')
Yes, it was shown off in January (https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/975370/view/3108047224245566889)
Post by: Ziusudra on August 21, 2022, 11:34:39 pm
Why is the current default tileset nonsquare? If I remember correctly, there’s a square one in the files too.When the game was first created it was meant to hav exceedingly simple graphics and to that end they decided to emulate old DOS text displays, thus the 16 colors, the CP437 characters, the 80x25 character minimum size, and the 8x12 pixel character font. In 2002 when the game was first released most people were still using 800x600 monitors, with 1024x768 not over-taking that until the next year. The square font is 16 pixels, which at 80 characters requires at least a 1280 wide monitor. Some people still play DF on older computers or devices with various displays, so the defaults need to be small enough to fit those. Edit: well, sort of, the tileset is resized to be small enough to fit the current window size, but that can cause blurring or distortion. (And that also might hav been added by Baughn.) (Also, I think the square font may hav been added by Baughn when he helped update the graphics.)
Anyway, the Premium version will default to the square graphics and loses the various limitations. I would guess the classic version will retain the current defaults, for the sake of those using older computers or smaller displays.
Post by: Doorkeeper on August 22, 2022, 12:28:12 am
- Why are demons only ever given the ampersand as their creature tile, whereas other procedurally-generated creatures like experiments, titans, and forgotten beasts are given random tiles?
...
Probably lack of unique characters. It's better to have a single symbol represent a single type of object anyways. NetHack also uses the ampersand near-exclusively for demons (shared by a handful of demonlike monsters).
As for the other procgen creatures: probably ran out of unique characters. Demons were added before FBs and way before experiments.
The tiles for titans, FBs, etc. aren't entirely random though. It's the first letter of the form/animal of the random creature. Humanoids are 'H', anklyosaurids are 'A', and so on. At the very least, the latin alphabet letters are mostly used to represent creatures, with notable exceptions like 'O' and 'X'.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on August 22, 2022, 08:41:36 am
[…]
The tiles for titans, FBs, etc. aren't entirely random though. It's the first letter of the form/animal of the random creature. Humanoids are 'H', anklyosaurids are 'A', and so on. At the very least, the latin alphabet letters are mostly used to represent creatures, with notable exceptions like 'O' and 'X'.
Oh, i didn't know that! Thanks for telling me.
Post by: myk on August 23, 2022, 08:50:26 am
Post by: voliol on August 23, 2022, 09:32:22 am
I think I remember you saying that ncurses mode is going away. Is that true? If so, is it still necessary to support 80x25 screens? What are the new minimum tile dimensions that you are targeting for the UI? In other words, when you design a new menu/screen/dialog, what can you assume about how much screen space you have to work with?
Remember to mark the questions in lime green if they are meant for Toady. I did it for the above in case you don't visit this thread much.
Edit: Will we be able to read the next part of Tales Foretold in the foreseeable future?
Post by: myk on August 24, 2022, 02:47:00 pm
Quote
Remember to mark the questions in lime green if they are meant for Toady.
Thanks!
Post by: Randomizer on August 25, 2022, 03:47:19 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 26, 2022, 02:17:28 am
There are several reasons for NOT hire on other people:
- Spending ever increasing parts of the time on managing others rather than doing the work that's actually enjoyable. That, in turn, risks killing the interest in the project, and can thus lead to it being abandoned.
- Lack of control and knowledge, i.e. things written by others may not be easily understood. Toady has had bad experiences in the past, with some things written by somebody else not being readily understood (and thus not updated).
- Theft. Again, Toady has had bad experiences in the past when people with access of the code has taken it without permission.
The answer may have changed both as a result of the project going commercial and as a result of experience of having to do management to coordinate and review artist activity.
Post by: clinodev on August 26, 2022, 05:59:40 am
If the release of the game generates enough money, would you be willing to hire additional programmers. This could dramatically increase the speed at which you will be able to move through your update/feature timeline. This would also free you up to do more work on the design end of the game which would benefit everyone.
PatrikLundell's answer is definitely the general vibe, but Toady has been quoted:
Quote
He does see money changing a few things. They might hire someone to help with graphics programming in the future so he can focus on developing Dwarf Fortress’s upcoming features, like a long-gestating magic system. He wants to keep paying the artists to work on the game after the initial Steam release. And if money as a concern really does go away for life, he says, why not release the source code?
PCGamer, 26 March, 2019 (https://www.pcgamer.com/if-dwarf-fortress-sells-millions-on-steam-its-creators-will-give-the-money-away-as-fast-as-possible/)
So it might be closer to the standard "Maybe, we'll see!"
Post by: voliol on August 26, 2022, 07:01:54 am
- Spending ever increasing parts of the time on managing others rather than doing the work that's actually enjoyable. That, in turn, risks killing the interest in the project, and can thus lead to it being abandoned.
- Lack of control and knowledge, i.e. things written by others may not be easily understood. Toady has had bad experiences in the past, with some things written by somebody else not being readily understood (and thus not updated).
Code of others being difficult to understand also piles onto the issue of managing, because Toady's code must also be understood.
Toady has no professional programming education, afaik. This doesn't mean he can't code - we have all seen Dwarf Fortress, a game that runs smoothly for what it is. Rather it means that he (in all likelihood) lacks knowledge on practices for managing a code base used by multiple people. How to best do documentation, class structure, unit testing, version control, and such. Having programmed as a profession for 15+ years, Toady has no doubt developed ways to manage the code that work for him. But these procedures aren't guaranteed to be up-sizable to a team of 2 or more, and even if they can, these won't be industry standard. This means either reworking the procedures, or training the new programmers to use the unorthodox style of the Toad. Or both.
Doesn't mean it can't be worth it though, just that the initial hurdle is higher.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 26, 2022, 07:23:21 am
Obviously it doesn't mean everything has been taken care of, just that he's found a way to handle that part.
If he was going to aim for significant contributions from external parties, the first task would probably be to set up a configuration control structure capable of handling that (as well as dual "active" versions multiplied by different targets [assuming those will return]), while still not being such a pain in the ass that all joy is sucked out of the work.
Whenever you work on pre existing code you have to largely stick to the conventions used, and adapt to that usage. Sure, it can be tempting to rewrite things in a "better" way, but then you should have a valid reason for why that way is better (and "this is what I and my buddies have always been taught and used, while the current implementation is an eyesore" isn't valid, while reduced maintenance costs without sacrificing legibility (for Toady), and significant performance gains (again, while remaining readable) are valid ones).
Post by: WereDragon on August 27, 2022, 03:02:27 pm
Secondly will saves work seamlessly between steam and the free version? For instance if i wanted to port a save from the steam release to the free release to do something on adventure mode, and then port it back after i am done, will that be possible without issue?
Finally, on the topic of adventure mode, will we be able to actually customize our character instead of randomizing it?
Post by: Paaaad on August 27, 2022, 06:56:09 pm
will adventure mode exclusive creatures/items still be graphically ready by the release date? I want to import a fortress that already has divine metal once the steam release happens.
Secondly will saves work seamlessly between steam and the free version? For instance if i wanted to port a save from the steam release to the free release to do something on adventure mode, and then port it back after i am done, will that be possible without issue?
Finally, on the topic of adventure mode, will we be able to actually customize our character instead of randomizing it?
I suspect the first point may be somewhat moot for you once the release drops- wouldn't be surprised if we hit a break in backwards compatibility, given all the changes that have been made. There's the Hospital's transition from Zone to Location just as one thing I can recall offhand.
Post by: clinodev on August 27, 2022, 07:37:53 pm
will adventure mode exclusive creatures/items still be graphically ready by the release date? I want to import a fortress that already has divine metal once the steam release happens.
Secondly will saves work seamlessly between steam and the free version? For instance if i wanted to port a save from the steam release to the free release to do something on adventure mode, and then port it back after i am done, will that be possible without issue?
Finally, on the topic of adventure mode, will we be able to actually customize our character instead of randomizing it?
I suspect the first point may be somewhat moot for you once the release drops- wouldn't be surprised if we hit a break in backwards compatibility, given all the changes that have been made. There's the Hospital's transition from Zone to Location just as one thing I can recall offhand.
I know that at least at one point, Zach was having to restart forts even between internal alphas of Premium, so it's a pretty safe bet backwards compatibility to 0.47.05 isn't going to happen (I'm pretty sure Toady's said so here.)
That said, I suspect iWereDragon is actually asking if divine metals will be in, perhaps in worldgen forts or reclaimed adventurer sites.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 28, 2022, 03:31:02 am
One of the changes made for the Premium RELEASE (as opposed to version) is to separate the tile set from the save, so each participant in a community fort could use their own tile set without impacting anyone else, so while a Premium version user could select between the Classic and the Premium tile set, a Classic version user is restricted to the Classic tile set (and both of them would have access to independent tile sets, although I wouldn't be shocked [but still dismayed] to see that some may be available only through a Premium version vendor's site, and thus unavailable to anyone else, including those having purchased the Premium version from another vendor).
Post by: voliol on August 28, 2022, 04:59:56 am
Also afaik itch.io purchases will come with a Steam key. The reason then to buy it directly from Steam will be... that Steam counts early purchases somhow differently depending on whether they came from a key or not? Something like that.
Post by: clinodev on August 28, 2022, 08:01:17 am
Post by: BlueManedHawk on August 28, 2022, 04:47:17 pm
- we're in the middle of two parts of a release (the Villains release)
- while this has added quite a few things, most of them are graphical/usability improvements that (to me) shouldn't interfere with the gameplay itself
- Myth and Magic is definitely going to be a breaking release, so if this was also a breaking release, that would be two breaking releases in a (relatively) short timespan (compared to the lifetime of DF2014)
Post by: Ziusudra on August 28, 2022, 08:55:21 pm
I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me like it would be really weird to break backwards compatibility with the premium release. After all:Except the save format itself has been changed to separate out mods and graphics - I would think that alone makes backwards compatibility very difficult at best.
- while this has added quite a few things, most of them are graphical/usability improvements that (to me) shouldn't interfere with the gameplay itself
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on August 29, 2022, 09:52:15 am
Post by: BlueManedHawk on August 29, 2022, 05:35:59 pm
I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me like it would be really weird to break backwards compatibility with the premium release. After all:Except the save format itself has been changed to separate out mods and graphics - I would think that alone makes backwards compatibility very difficult at best.
- while this has added quite a few things, most of them are graphical/usability improvements that (to me) shouldn't interfere with the gameplay itself
What's stopping the game from just supporting both formats for a bit? I guess it would lead to a bit more resource usage, but, like, relative to the scope of DF as it is, i doubt it would be that much more. I'm not an expert, though.
Post by: clinodev on August 29, 2022, 07:31:53 pm
What's stopping the game from just supporting both formats for a bit? I guess it would lead to a bit more resource usage, but, like, relative to the scope of DF as it is, i doubt it would be that much more. I'm not an expert, though.
It's mostly the general problem of anything "just taking a couple hours" or "a few days" and there being tens of thousands of us with our own little wish lists.
Relatively few people are going to want to bring a world forward in general, in light of the new release. Zach's hinted at endgame conditions and nobles being different, so it may well be that forts you'd want to bring forward will be stuck because of past decisions anyway. Even now, older forts very often don't get many newer features when brought forward, because they're worldgen things, like you can update a 0.44.12 world to 0.47.05, but you won't suddenly get altars and dice in worldgen temples.
On the up side, it has been done before, and Tarn's said somewhere it should be technically possible. It's likely someone will try their hand at a convertor.
If not, hey, 8 years of backwards compatibility is a fantastic run, and at least we won't have to explain to people that DF:2014 IS the current version of the wiki anymore!!
Post by: TheFlame52 on August 29, 2022, 08:13:40 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 30, 2022, 03:01:09 am
It's probably not impossible, once the new format and its relations to the old format components are known, but it would be a fair bit of work, with significant risk of screwing things up (but if done properly, the converted save shouldn't overwrite the original, making it possible to try again with an updated conversion tool).
It's possible a converter would have to do placeholder conversions of some things and leave a report of things people will have to fix up themselves (modified hospitals might be such a thing), because there is no obvious translation from the old format to the new, or there are things that manually have to be added to flesh out the new format.
I agree that Toady's time most likely is better spent on more urgent things than spending a couple of weeks to add save conversion (that would still have the normal backwards compatibility issues of the past, i.e. new stuff not appearing). Obviously the time it would take is a wild guess on my part, but I very much doubts it could be done in hours, and wouldn't be shocked if it was a month or more.
Hm, yes, I have some things in mind that would just take an hour or two to incorporate (including things already implemented in suggestions, so the time would be spent just moving the stuff over), such as a certain arachnid (which isn't on my priority list). I think there's probably a year or more of "just a few hours" things on peoples' wish lists...
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 30, 2022, 05:19:07 am
If not, hey, 8 years of backwards compatibility is a fantastic run, and at least we won't have to explain to people that DF:2014 IS the current version of the wiki anymore!!
I don't remember who it was (I wanna say voliol?), but there was a good case made on the forum somewhere that the premium release really should bring a wiki namespace update, even if it doesn't break save compatibility.
Post by: voliol on August 30, 2022, 09:25:54 am
If not, hey, 8 years of backwards compatibility is a fantastic run, and at least we won't have to explain to people that DF:2014 IS the current version of the wiki anymore!!
I don't remember who it was (I wanna say voliol?), but there was a good case made on the forum somewhere that the premium release really should bring a wiki namespace update, even if it doesn't break save compatibility.
Yup, here is the thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.0). It speaks for itself, both the original case and the case against in some of the replies. Though I'd like to add that it was written in 2020, when the Premium updates seemed as likely to be "graphics+mouse support+more consistent key-bindings" as "a totally reworked GUI". The endgame changes that clinodev mention, and the old type of rooms being gone compound onto that, so yeah, I really hope the wiki mods/devs are on board. :)
(that is the tricky aspect, that ultimately advocating for a new namespace is advocating for more work on someone else's part :/)
Post by: Criperum on August 31, 2022, 11:08:09 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on August 31, 2022, 11:25:36 am
Since some of them contains dwarven lyrics does it mean that we have this language for the rest of the dev process?
Almost certainly not. Worst case, it can always be a throwback to the original dwarf language from earlier versions, and it's possible (likely even) that the low-randomness settings may have a hardcoded dwarven language much like our current one anyway.
And it's not like these soundtracks are in-universe or anything; if the dwarves all die, the soundtrack keeps singing on.
Post by: Randomizer on August 31, 2022, 11:57:48 am
I am aware you are almost guaranteed to have a least a little candy but presence of the other HFS is rare and reduced to dumb luck.
Post by: Urist McSadist on August 31, 2022, 02:21:24 pm
1.Are we going to see adventure mode ai improvements before magic? Would be nice if there were some consequences for killing the king.
2.Will we get fort mode mounts, and if so how would they be implemented?
Post by: voliol on August 31, 2022, 04:54:14 pm
Post by: Schmaven on August 31, 2022, 09:14:15 pm
The new tracks are lovely! When are we going to be hearing this music? I had been under the assumption that Dabu's four tracks were one for each season, but then where do the rest fit in? Is it like in Simcity where the music advances as your fortress/city grows? "Strike the earth" could be a first-year track, going by it's name, but the others don't give me this vibe.
Not the official soundtrack, but Simon Swerwer has a number of good tracks on his soundcoud if you wanted to hear some of his music: https://soundcloud.com/simonswerwer (https://soundcloud.com/simonswerwer)
Post by: Paaaad on August 31, 2022, 10:15:01 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 01, 2022, 02:24:03 am
An embark of size 3*3 or larger is guaranteed to have at least one spire, although a bug can cause some the spires not to show up in practice when using a reduced number of layers (layer accounting is botched, so a spire that should reach a layer that's been removed won't appear at all, rather than reach the layer that replaces the removed one). It's probably less work to fix the bug than it is to add an embark site search criterion that accounts for the bug...
Given that HFS is procedurally generated, the only way to find the variant themes you happen to be looking for would be to make a DFHack script to search for them, as it would be extremely unlikely Toady would produce a HFS variant matcher as part of a potential site finder update.
Post by: voliol on September 01, 2022, 02:33:08 am
Are Kobolds supposed to be able to come up with and build their own Musical Instruments? Because I just raided and razed a Kobold cave and got two separate kinds- the Tukududolgis and the Jadasraynkus. Definitely look like Kobold names, and they came from one of their caves...
They do have GENERATE_PERCUSSION_INSTRUMENTS in their entity raws so yeah. It's cool though, so thanks for pointing it out! :)
Post by: Randomizer on September 01, 2022, 06:20:06 am
@Randomizer:
An embark of size 3*3 or larger is guaranteed to have at least one spire, although a bug can cause some the spires not to show up in practice when using a reduced number of layers (layer accounting is botched, so a spire that should reach a layer that's been removed won't appear at all, rather than reach the layer that replaces the removed one). It's probably less work to fix the bug than it is to add an embark site search criterion that accounts for the bug...
Given that HFS is procedurally generated, the only way to find the variant themes you happen to be looking for would be to make a DFHack script to search for them, as it would be extremely unlikely Toady would produce a HFS variant matcher as part of a potential site finder update.
predated myself
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Toady One on September 01, 2022, 05:40:16 pm
Quote from: Tachytaenius
I was running a challenge with a no-aging hermit to discover every topic in existence, running a script to tell me how many topics have been discovered based on DFHack's df-structures information, and she's skipped out on "philosophy: propositional logic" and "engineering: models and templates" and gone straight to the "Research!" activity. What could have caused that to happen?
Had seen "Reserach!" before when setting all 312 (are there more?) topics to known.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395729#msg8395729
Huh, yeah, if they haven't gotten into them over a long period of time, maybe those two are (buggily) inaccessible? I guess we'd know if anybody has ever researched them post world gen.
Quote from: Paaaad
Something that's bugging me a little: Why are the underground crops the ones effected by the changing seasons while the surface crops- the ones actually exposed to the changing weather and temperature- aren't? The conditions underground are really quite stable- hence wine cellars and root cellars.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395781#msg8395781
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395815#msg8395815
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395819#msg8395819
Yeah, as the replies say, this was related to how the 2D version worked.
Quote from: Button
How much warning do you plan to give before the release of the new version? Will there be an official release date scheduled, or will you just drop it on us like in previous releases?
Ha ha, there'll have to be some lead time with this one! Many more moving pieces than normal, especially for the initial launch.
Quote from: kiiranaux
Will premium introduce a solution to Necromancer Entropy - the fact that given enough time undead take over the world? I believe Tarn previously mentioned vampire hunters of the Van Helsing ilk, possibly grouping together into some kind of organizations. How are the odds for this looking right now? (This was stated in an interview with Blind, but not his most recent one, or maybe here, or in maybe in some other interview.)
I know this is technically an emergent gameplay feature rather than a bug, but it's not one that actually enables any fun gameplay (except for roleplaying Zombie Apolcalypse), and it seems you guys have acknowledged that it's a problem. Thanks for reading.
Adding new whole features pre-launch is getting tougher, but if it's not handled for premium, it'll be handled as we get back into the game's core development. We do consider it a pretty serious problem, rather than a feature.
Quote from: Obsidian Short Sword
1: Once a creature is parsed from the raws, How do you represent it in memory(I'm ok with technical details)?
2: On the dev page, Automatons were mentioned as a possible feature. When could we reasonably expect their first appearance?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396314#msg8396314
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8398202#msg8398202
Obsidian Short Sword (OP): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8398297#msg8398297
1 was answered by the replies, and I can't really add anything to the xml there!
2 - yeah, myth/magic is a likely candidate, although it's quite chunky as we know, so only some stuff will come in on the first pass. If we're talking about purely mechanical non-magical automatons that are more like a curiosity or wtvr, then I have no idea! Seems dwarfy though.
Quote from: AvolitionBrit
1. Have you ever considered restrictions/segmentation on books in libraries ever and would you possibly consider it in the future, such as restricting individual books and/or a library on a certain topic like astrology in one library and chronicles in another
2. In regards to religions, will it be possible in the future for a player to found them, especially in terms of adventure mode, having a adventurer founding a religious cult, a splinter off from a already exisiting one or becoming leadership and making changes to an existing one.
3. At somepoint in the future will costal erosion be considered as a feature, so overtime the map changes, sea level rises, islands shifting together or breaking off. Sea volcanos forming islands. So sites might end up becoming lost under the ocean or burried in magma. I know its a big feature to implement but has it ever been thought about or considered before. As well as biome changes as the enviroment changes, like the expansion of a desert over time due to desertification or a forest becoming colder over time due to enviromental changes.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396575#msg8396575
AvolitionBrit (OP): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396602#msg8396602
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396603#msg8396603
Nordlicht: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396604#msg8396604
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396607#msg8396607
AvolitionBrit (OP): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396612#msg8396612
1. I hadn't really thought about it, except maybe in terms of managing complaints around necromancy books making the whole fort go sour. It seems like a reasonable and fun thing to do if you have enough books.
2. We have all the pieces we need here, because it happens in world gen, but as with several things world gen, it's just not in play yet. Not sure when the next chance for it to come up is - we'd likely want there to be enough mechanics sitting around for it to be worthwhile, which might not be until we do the entity rewrite and fort start situations.
3. Map change generally is going to be a big part of the myth/magic release. I'm not sure if we'll get to more natural processes at that time though! We're quite mindful of sea erosion in any case, since houses keep falling into Puget Sound out here.
Quote from: memmet
1. Will the Myth and Magic arc significantly affect the dynamics of personality? Will there be a personality rewrite? This seems connected to both play modes, the villains and army arcs, as well as my question below. Curious about bay12's thinking on personality.
2. Will creatures' bodies or behaviors ever change over generations? I read that creatures do inherit both appearance and attributes. Does this produce an evolutionary effect currently? Do cultural customs change over time, or will they?
3. A gameplay question: During a conversation in adventure mode, some people have a "Sluggish" attitude toward me. What does that mean?
1. There's quite a bit there now. It does get changed frequently, but it feels like we'll be focusing on other areas that haven't had nearly as much work.
2. There's not much evolution there now - the models need to be better individually, and there aren't any changes at the population level at all if I remember. Customs and things'll change, but only after we get the framework rewritten. Of course, the religions that come about during world gen count toward changing customs currently, and books currently can change the values of a civilization if I recall. But there should be more.
3. Their agitation level is -75 or less. -25 or less is "inactive". "Sluggish" is probably a bit harsh or loaded.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
I’ve been reading the wiki, and I’ve got a few questions.
It says that all towns start out as hamlets and then turn into towns under the right circumstances. What are those circumstances?
Also, it says that, for towns, of of +, *, #, or ? is used according to the population. For hamlets, are the distinctions between Æ and æ, and = and ? also based on population? If so, what are the required populations?
Also, is the list of population ranges for each level of town in the wiki correct? If so, what determines whether a town with (for example) a population of exactly 1000 shows up as a + or a *?
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8397618#msg8397618
I think Doorkeeper's reply handles this one entirely.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
1. Will the advanced worldgen menu be in the initial Premium release?
2. What sort of timeline are you thinking of for the releasing the raws/info for modders to prepare for updating?
3. Last we've heard about the roadmap plans were you decided on doing Adventure mode later, and are unsure about Arena mode; what's your position on the Steam Workshop and Achievements, which were also in an uncertain place?
4. Will the advanced world gen menu be in the initial Steam release?
5. Will the layer-fog color be changed? Blue makes it look like everything is flooded, at least underground.
6. Might something like the dragon randomizer (ie constrained randomness definable in raws, so that random things can be made to match "archetypes") ever exist for plants, materials, entities, interactions/magic, or other things that end up controllable?
7. What's the lore for why necromancers need to breathe, despite conquering all the other bodily needs (eating/drinking/sleeping)?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8398372#msg8398372
1+4. Yeah, that part is done, pretty much the same as before.
2. There are a few more things I wanna do first, especially as it concerns making small tweaks instead of replacing whole files. But it's pretty much how it is going to be I think.
3. We're still doing these, but I gather it might be after now? Not 100% decided, but I recollect Steam Workshop ended up being more involved than we thought.
5. The issue was the border between subterranean and aboveground looking bad I think, and that being kind of annoying to handle. But it's easy to make it all dark if you wanna change it.
6. Yeah, the dragon randomizer was supposed to be a prototype for being able to do that with everything - now with the editors on as close a horizon as the dragon randomizer, we'll see what comes first, but we're hoping to get to various middle grounds there. Or we may end up in script land? It's hard to say now.
7. So you can choke them to death, maybe... I don't recall the level of thought that went into this. But we didn't imagine them as totally completely dead.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
How does the look menu work now? Is there a quick way of identifying different types of stone to designate for mining, without having to use the look menu? I know what everything is at a glance with the ASCIIs, I'm worried I'll get confused by the artwork when looking for ores, mineral types, and so on.
How back compatible is the new version going to be with the old keyboard shortcuts? My hands remember which buttons to press even if my brain doesn't. Watching Zach's video fills me with confused terror.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8399694#msg8399694
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8399770#msg8399770
Yeah, there are the colors and also a different wall image for ores/gems etc., so hopefully you won't run into trouble here. We're still finalizing the ore image to make it even more clear.
And PatrikLundell's correct that keyboard shortcuts are going to change. This became inevitable with WASD support, and also for general consistency reasons.
Quote from: Immortal-D
With the Steam release in mind;
- Have you considered giving Legends Mode a similar GUI overhaul? (Possibly similar to the popular utility 'Legends Viewer')
- What about being able to use Legends Mode during Fortress Mode?
- Have you (and I suppose KitFox here) considered doing a promotional release several days before launch? Give a pre-release copy to streamers and the like.
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400021#msg8400021
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400924#msg8400924
- Yeah, as Putnam observed, we've changed it quite a bit.
- Mr Crabman's reply covers our thoughts here - pretty simple to implement, maybe/probably will, but it does mess with some things like vampires.
- There is a whole process being decided here, yeah.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
- Why are demons only ever given the ampersand as their creature tile, whereas other procedurally-generated creatures like experiments, titans, and forgotten beasts are given random tiles?
- On a related note, why do demons have the same [DIFFICULTY] as forgotten beasts and titans, despite definitely being generally usually pretty harder?
- On a related note to that one, would it be possible for procedurally-generated creatures to have different [DIFFICULTY]s depending on their properties?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400097#msg8400097
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400935#msg8400935
BlueManedHawk (OP): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8401009#msg8401009
- ampersands are a traditional demon symbol from the roguelike genre.
- I think voliol handled this one - their creature defs aren't much different at the individual level.
- Yeah, it would make sense, especially while there are still ones that break apart in one hit or are otherwise unimpressive, and others have some uniquely nasty poisons and such.
Quote from: pamelrabo
¿will you take some kind of rest, or holidays, when the Steam version is launched?
I guess you'll addres the most worrying bugs but after that, I mean.
You talk about development in a really casual way, like it's no big deal, but I'm pretty sure there's been a lot of stressful moments and a lot more will come with the release. I love the game, but no game is worth its creators' wellbeing.
If it's not too personal, ¿Have you ever felt you abused yourself pushing a release or hunting a bug? Is it difficult to handle the community's expectations and constant "when when when" questions?
I dunno about rest. It hasn't really come up yet, ha ha. Though we have taken in the time to mess around with side projects (not so much since the steam stuff started, since we're on more of a schedule and other people are involved.) It seems like a reasonable thing to do, and I might feel more urgent about it after experiencing whatever the launch is like.
I don't feel too put upon though. As we know, the thing comes out when it comes out, and there's not much changing that, although we could certainly organize things better at times. The community hasn't really ever been bad about this I think? During the last long wait, things were pretty okay as I recall.
Quote from: Paaaad
Why is the current default tileset nonsquare? If I remember correctly, there’s a square one in the files too.
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400928#msg8400928
Ziusudra answered this one. A note: the text is still rectangular in premium, but the game play tiles are square.
Quote from: myk
I think I remember you saying that ncurses mode is going away. Is that true? If so, is it still necessary to support 80x25 screens? What are the new minimum tile dimensions that you are targeting for the UI? In other words, when you design a new menu/screen/dialog, what can you assume about how much screen space you have to work with?
The new GUI has a minimum of 116x46. This is just to make the menus work etc., and even at 116x46 some things are very scrunched. At some future point we might be able to bring back a reduced version to get us back to 80x25, but it feels very difficult to do so without just bringing back all of the things that are almost universal hated about the DF interface.
Quote from: voliol
Will we be able to read the next part of Tales Foretold in the foreseeable future?
Zach's been playtesting. Not sure when he'll have time to write another section.
Quote from: Randomizer
If the release of the game generates enough money, would you be willing to hire additional programmers. This could dramatically increase the speed at which you will be able to move through your update/feature timeline. This would also free you up to do more work on the design end of the game which would benefit everyone.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402018#msg8402018
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402052#msg8402052
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402059#msg8402059
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402060#msg8402060
Ha ha, as clinodev says, the replies here have captured the general vibe, and now that general vibe includes at least some possibilities that aren't all No. I'm not sure if it dramatically increases speed on the core stuff, but it does allow us to keep things cleaner and nicer and broader, most likely, things I normally can't focus on as easily.
Quote from: WereDragon
will adventure mode exclusive creatures/items still be graphically ready by the release date? I want to import a fortress that already has divine metal once the steam release happens.
Secondly will saves work seamlessly between steam and the free version? For instance if i wanted to port a save from the steam release to the free release to do something on adventure mode, and then port it back after i am done, will that be possible without issue?
Finally, on the topic of adventure mode, will we be able to actually customize our character instead of randomizing it?
Paaaad: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402346#msg8402346
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402353#msg8402353
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402403#msg8402403
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402414#msg8402414
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402425#msg8402425
(and so forth, long conversation)
So yeah, old saves aren't compatible, if that was part of the question. The save restructuring is the main reason (no mods/raws in saves), though it became strained when we made some necessary technical changes to trees as well, oddly enough - might have been able to survive one of those, but not both. Saves will be able to move between steam/classic with no issue. However, classic also will not have adventure mode. Adventure mode is going to come out for steam and classic at the same time.
However, the general question here is also complicated because divine metals exist in fort mode now.
I'm not sure what you mean for customization - like the appearance? There's a lot of customization generally. For physical appearance, it was complicated by how the 'genetics' were stored, but if I recollect, we were just going to put a warning that any future adv babies we might add would not look like their parent at all if you take advantage of full customization, if we can't get around the wrinkles. But we haven't done any of that yet.
Quote from: Criperum
Quick question about new soundtracks(more about dwarven language). Since some of them contains dwarven lyrics does it mean that we have this language for the rest of the dev process? I mean there was a forum topic where some baydweller tryed to make dwarven into actual language and as far as I remember he gave up because you said before that languages will be procgenerated too.
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403046#msg8403046
Yeah, it's possibly as Mr Crabman says - the lower randomness settings would gravitate toward our default setting. For instance, if we go with the plan to include a setting with the editor world (which serves as an example of how the formats work etc.), the current in-game language can remain a part of that even as new complications and randomness are added in. When we get to grammar etc., it might be complicated to keep all words exactly as they are, but this isn't a huge issue I think.
Quote from: Randomizer
I was wondering, will the new location finder have a way of showing where candy and clowns are to be found?. That way when you embark you can be sure it is on the game map. There are types of HFS that are not always found on the game map. There may even be new HFS in the big release. I would like a way to guarantee it is all on the game map I choose. A setting in the init files could be used to switch this feature on and off.
I am aware you are almost guaranteed to have a least a little candy but presence of the other HFS is rare and reduced to dumb luck.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403231#msg8403231
Yeah, we used to have more types and it would matter, but now a 3x3 embark is all you need.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Are we going to see adventure mode ai improvements before magic? Would be nice if there were some consequences for killing the king.
2.Will we get fort mode mounts, and if so how would they be implemented?
1. There'll be a lot of changes, though I'm not sure exactly which sorts you mean. But the villain and army stuff are gonna see some alterations for sure.
2. Still not entirely on team mounted dwarves here. Not sure it would need to be implemented much different from the war dogs and such, although generally that could be better.
Quote from: voliol
The new tracks are lovely! When are we going to be hearing this music? I had been under the assumption that Dabu's four tracks were one for each season, but then where do the rest fit in? Is it like in Simcity where the music advances as your fortress/city grows? "Strike the earth" could be a first-year track, going by it's name, but the others don't give me this vibe.
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403188#msg8403188
It's pretty cool! So in terms of where they play during the game, there are different settings for every track. One depends on the caverns being opened, one plays only after the second year, one is a first year track. Strike the Earth plays when you first embark, and then gets mixed in with the others afterward. And so forth; there's a raw format for this so you can change it if you like.
Quote from: Paaaad
Are Kobolds supposed to be able to come up with and build their own Musical Instruments? Because I just raided and razed a Kobold cave and got two separate kinds- the Tukududolgis and the Jadasraynkus. Definitely look like Kobold names, and they came from one of their caves...
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403235#msg8403235
Yeah, ha ha, the entity txt has them into percussion.
Post by: WereDragon on September 01, 2022, 11:46:21 pm
Post by: delphonso on September 02, 2022, 12:53:41 am
What do you mean divine metal in fortress mode? How will we be able to get our hands on it? Will we be able to get different variations?
One way is to raid vaults, which can be accessed either on the map (after visiting in adventure mode), or through seeking out the slab/any artifacts located there.
Post by: ZM5 on September 02, 2022, 04:57:41 am
Post by: voliol on September 02, 2022, 08:04:40 am
In regards to the new mod loading system, how will total conversions be handled?
According to Tarn in a devlog last December (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/#2021-12-24), by simply not loading the vanilla raws.
Quote from: DF devlog, 2021-12-24
[...]I'd imagine not much has changed since then; it's the latest mention of mod structure I could find in the devlogs.
When you create a world, you can set a load order from among the mods that are installed on your computer, including the vanilla objects. The default is just to load the vanilla objects in order, and you don't even see this if you haven't put mods on your system. On the other hand, vanilla objects don't need to be loaded at all, though obviously in that case you'll generally want something to replace them. Hopefully this will allow total object conversions and other large changes without needing to leave the in-game interface.
[...]
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on September 02, 2022, 01:05:31 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on September 02, 2022, 11:13:05 pm
Post by: RockCat on September 05, 2022, 12:11:38 am
Currently the world has a stagnant tech level which i don't find fun... or !!FUN!! after all who wouldn't love to show our elven friends some new super fast flying sticks or funny explosion sticks!
Much love, and I'll surely buy DF on Steam's release!
Post by: Inarius on September 05, 2022, 02:25:14 am
Anyway, don't expect it soon. But it's planned, and Toady has already talked about this, hence the introduction of Research.
Post by: hirsute_offender on September 05, 2022, 02:58:03 am
One thing that I find particularly jarring though, and that may be easily fixed, is how characters and objects on screen just snap to the next tile when moving. It feels very choppy and rough
Would it be possible to make the transition a little smoother, by making the elements slide from one tile to the next?
Thank you
Post by: BlueManedHawk on September 05, 2022, 08:24:18 pm
I watched the demo recorded on Twitch, awesome!
One thing that I find particularly jarring though, and that may be easily fixed, is how characters and objects on screen just snap to the next tile when moving. It feels very choppy and rough
Would it be possible to make the transition a little smoother, by making the elements slide from one tile to the next?
Thank you
I believe this was asked before, and if i remember correctly, the answer was something along the lines of "Maybe later, but objects snapping to the next tile is good enough for the first release.". I don't have a citation for that, though. (Also, the rules of the thread state that questions ought to be written in green for Toady to see them.)
Post by: Doorkeeper on September 05, 2022, 11:54:50 pm
Also, what are "tokens", "flags" and "tags" in your own words? Are the three terms synonymous w/ each other? They are often used interchangeably by mostly everyone here. I ask b/c when you use the terms in your posts, you appear to use tag and flag interchangeably, but usually use token in a different sense.
From what I understand you would not call AMPHIBIOUS or LARGE_PREDATOR tokens, but call them tags (specifically creature tags). In most definitions, a token is an instance of a type of object, right? So DOG is a token, and CREATURE is the type; DOG would be an instance of CREATURE. Or BLUEBERRY is a token of the object type PLANT, SKIN_TEMPLATE is a token of the object type MATERIAL_TEMPLATE (or the object type TISSUE_TEMPLATE, depending on context). FLUX is a token of REACTION_CLASS, ANGER is a token of PERSONALITY, GLACIER is a token of BIOME, etc. But PHYS_ATT_RANGE wouldn't be called a token b/c it isn't an object itself... I hope I didn't contradict myself.
Post by: Mr Crabman on September 06, 2022, 03:23:56 am
Also, what are "tokens", "flags" and "tags" in your own words? Are the three terms synonymous w/ each other? They are often used interchangeably by mostly everyone here. I ask b/c when you use the terms in your posts, you appear to use tag and flag interchangeably, but usually use token in a different sense.
As I understand it, token and tag are synonymous, but "flag" refers to what tokens get turned into and stored as in the actual creatures, and they don't align 1-1.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Interaction_token#Creature_and_Caste_Flags
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 06, 2022, 07:03:31 am
Regarding game dir nomenclature: does "raw" originally stand for "Rules As Written"? Or is the folder called raw in the sense that it contains "raw data"?
The latter, if I recall...the token system, among other things just designates the relevant file contents as human-readable?
Post by: Putnam on September 07, 2022, 11:42:15 pm
From what I understand you would not call AMPHIBIOUS or LARGE_PREDATOR tokens, but call them tags (specifically creature tags). In most definitions, a token is an instance of a type of object, right? So DOG is a token, and CREATURE is the type; DOG would be an instance of CREATURE. Or BLUEBERRY is a token of the object type PLANT, SKIN_TEMPLATE is a token of the object type MATERIAL_TEMPLATE (or the object type TISSUE_TEMPLATE, depending on context). FLUX is a token of REACTION_CLASS, ANGER is a token of PERSONALITY, GLACIER is a token of BIOME, etc. But PHYS_ATT_RANGE wouldn't be called a token b/c it isn't an object itself... I hope I didn't contradict myself.
AMPHIBIOUS and LARGE_PREDATOR are creature tokens. DOG is an ID for a CREATURE object. BLUEBERRY is an ID for a PLANT, etc.
[REACTION_CLASS:FLUX] is a token, as a block. [PERSONALITY:ANGER:0:50:100] is a token. [BIOME:GLACIER] is a token. Tokens can have arguments. "Tag" is synonymous with "token".
Flags are checks that can be done by interactions and syndromes. That's actually about all there is to it.
Post by: Doorkeeper on September 08, 2022, 11:43:40 am
Post by: Paaaad on September 09, 2022, 10:10:09 pm
Post by: Fikilili on September 11, 2022, 08:06:44 am
1. The fantasy landscape has changed a whole lot ever since DF was released. Do you still see the game as a "generic fantasy simulator" or something that has its own sort of twist on the fantasy genre now?
2. Speaking of fantasy, have you been reading/watching/playing anything fantasy related? If so, does your lectures/watchings/playthroughs give you inspiration for future DF content?
3. Sometimes I look at DF's beastiary and wonder why was this or that animal/fantasy creature was added. What exactly qualifies as a good candidate for a new addition to the game's roster of creatures to you?
Post by: Immortal-D on September 11, 2022, 10:04:08 am
Post by: BlackAion on September 11, 2022, 10:01:46 pm
Like will the physical manifestation of say a God Of Nature cause various magical creatures to come existence, magical forests to be made, and increase the number of Megabeasts?
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 12, 2022, 02:13:24 am
@BlackAion: That sounds like one "classic" pantheon configuration that should be possible, probably with frequent twists resulting in more or less unusual sphere combinations. Note that there will probably be other possible combinations, though.
A Nature sphere ought to primarily concern the increase of "Nature", which might involve an increase in vegetation, flora and fauna diversity, suppression of unnatural influence (such as civilization), etc. Magic ought only to come into play if the influence (a god in your case) is ALSO a magic one.
Megabeasts sound like part nature, part savagery, and possibly part magic (savagery may well be an influence that gets replaced by new spheres, though).
Post by: BlackAion on September 12, 2022, 06:18:13 pm
@Immortal-D: Unlikely, as such adjustments aren't critical changes eligible to compete for the ever shrinking remaining development time. Such adjustments would definitely be candidates for contents in regular "current release version" updates once the Big Wait is underway, though (competing with thousands of other such changes).
@BlackAion: That sounds like one "classic" pantheon configuration that should be possible, probably with frequent twists resulting in more or less unusual sphere combinations. Note that there will probably be other possible combinations, though.
A Nature sphere ought to primarily concern the increase of "Nature", which might involve an increase in vegetation, flora and fauna diversity, suppression of unnatural influence (such as civilization), etc. Magic ought only to come into play if the influence (a god in your case) is ALSO a magic one.
Megabeasts sound like part nature, part savagery, and possibly part magic (savagery may well be an influence that gets replaced by new spheres, though).
Thanks for the quick reply but I got to ask, what powers would a God of Love/Lust even have? I am having a hard time figuring out what impacts they would have on the world that is significant but stays PG-13.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 12, 2022, 08:01:54 pm
Have you read Legends recently (or carried out combat)? Heck of a lot going on out there that isn't PG-13.@Immortal-D: Unlikely, as such adjustments aren't critical changes eligible to compete for the ever shrinking remaining development time. Such adjustments would definitely be candidates for contents in regular "current release version" updates once the Big Wait is underway, though (competing with thousands of other such changes).
@BlackAion: That sounds like one "classic" pantheon configuration that should be possible, probably with frequent twists resulting in more or less unusual sphere combinations. Note that there will probably be other possible combinations, though.
A Nature sphere ought to primarily concern the increase of "Nature", which might involve an increase in vegetation, flora and fauna diversity, suppression of unnatural influence (such as civilization), etc. Magic ought only to come into play if the influence (a god in your case) is ALSO a magic one.
Megabeasts sound like part nature, part savagery, and possibly part magic (savagery may well be an influence that gets replaced by new spheres, though).
Thanks for the quick reply but I got to ask, what powers would a God of Love/Lust even have? I am having a hard time figuring out what impacts they would have on the world that is significant but stays PG-13.
Post by: BlackAion on September 12, 2022, 10:12:55 pm
Have you read Legends recently (or carried out combat)? Heck of a lot going on out there that isn't PG-13.@Immortal-D: Unlikely, as such adjustments aren't critical changes eligible to compete for the ever shrinking remaining development time. Such adjustments would definitely be candidates for contents in regular "current release version" updates once the Big Wait is underway, though (competing with thousands of other such changes).
@BlackAion: That sounds like one "classic" pantheon configuration that should be possible, probably with frequent twists resulting in more or less unusual sphere combinations. Note that there will probably be other possible combinations, though.
A Nature sphere ought to primarily concern the increase of "Nature", which might involve an increase in vegetation, flora and fauna diversity, suppression of unnatural influence (such as civilization), etc. Magic ought only to come into play if the influence (a god in your case) is ALSO a magic one.
Megabeasts sound like part nature, part savagery, and possibly part magic (savagery may well be an influence that gets replaced by new spheres, though).
Thanks for the quick reply but I got to ask, what powers would a God of Love/Lust even have? I am having a hard time figuring out what impacts they would have on the world that is significant but stays PG-13.
Many countries and cultures see a difference between blood and gore and exaggerated chests. I know that it's inherently difficult to lewdify this:(https://compote.slate.com/images/a754a1bd-50c0-42cb-a237-10b61315bcbd.jpeg?width=780&height=520&rect=1560x1040&offset=0x0)
But the powers that be dont care. But thats not here nor there, I'm just trying to understand what kinds of powers would a God Of Love/Lust would have and how those powers would impact the world especially if they physically manifested.
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 13, 2022, 01:20:36 am
- Less conflict (Love)
- More marriages and children (Love)
- More lovers (Love and Lust)
- More extra maritial affairs (Lust primarily)
- More master/student associations (Love, without any sexual connotations)
- Fewer murders (Love)
- More murders (of competitors, Lust)
Apart from that (and other things, of course), they'd also serve as opponents to the influence of other spheres. Some might not be head on opposition but rather at lesser angles, if the analogy makes sense. Similarly, they may modify other spheres.
- Love vs Hate
- Love vs Strife
- Love vs War
- Love vs Arrogance
- Love combining with Lust
- Love combining with Passion
- Lust vs Lethargy
- Lust combining with Hate and Strife (separately or combined)
- etc.
Spheres may also affect people's values, so people within a sphere's influence might be nudged toward aligned values. This can also be effected by making scholars within such influences more prone to write books promoting those values and less prone to write ones against them. Effects don't have to be obviously visible in the open to still affect things.
Post by: BlackAion on September 13, 2022, 07:36:37 am
Random guesses about Love and Lust:
- Less conflict (Love)
- More marriages and children (Love)
- More lovers (Love and Lust)
- More extra maritial affairs (Lust primarily)
- More master/student associations (Love, without any sexual connotations)
- Fewer murders (Love)
- More murders (of competitors, Lust)
Apart from that (and other things, of course), they'd also serve as opponents to the influence of other spheres. Some might not be head on opposition but rather at lesser angles, if the analogy makes sense. Similarly, they may modify other spheres.
- Love vs Hate
- Love vs Strife
- Love vs War
- Love vs Arrogance
- Love combining with Lust
- Love combining with Passion
- Lust vs Lethargy
- Lust combining with Hate and Strife (separately or combined)
- etc.
Spheres may also affect people's values, so people within a sphere's influence might be nudged toward aligned values. This can also be effected by making scholars within such influences more prone to write books promoting those values and less prone to write ones against them. Effects don't have to be obviously visible in the open to still affect things.
All of that can be categorized as social unrest or the lack of if even that. While social unrest can be pretty bad for a dwarfhold It still feels bareboned and nowhere near as significant as what a God of Nature could do.
The creation of nymphs and/or succubi could be a power they could have, unique creatures that cause less or more social unrest respectively. One inspires Love while the other inspires Lust. They could also be considered beings with [POWER].
Nymphs could inspire love, art, and music among dwarfholds, increase the experience gained doing any skill, reducing stress in general etc. And they do all of this simply by being in the area. They can strongly promote other spheres of influence as well such as Nature while opposing other spheres like War. They would be dangerous to approach though as there is a chance for a dwarf/human/elf/any creature that isnt a goblin to go blind upon meeting one. The ones who dont run the risk of being trapped by the Nymph as she will wish to express her insatiable "love" onto anyone she meets though she may let them go voluntarily. However, the dwarf may go back to her on their own which would mean one less dwarf to work with. However, they could also become permanently inspired and incapable of getting depressed ever again while also massively boosting all of their skills.
Succubi meanwhile would inspire the same art and music but it would be more depraved and lustful, decrease the experience gained doing any skill, increase stress in general. Additionally, the Succubi's mere presence would eventually permanently cause a shift in a dwarves personality causing them to become extremely unproductive unless they do the tango one or more times a day, slowing fortress building to a standstill. They strongly promote other spheres of influence like War and Hate while opposing others though I think they would promote Nature as well albeit in a wholly different way than Nymphs. Like the Nymph she is also insatiable and will have her way with any dwarf that catches her eye. Unlike the Nymph she wont let them go and they will eventually die. Not because she sucked his soul out or anything but because of exhaustion. Than she'll just keep on taking dwarf that catches her eye until no dwarves are left.
I do think that can both can shapeshift, changing sexes on a dime if they so wish though Succubi may do it more readily than Nymphs.
This is all just what I think a God of Love could create after a good nights rest and not a suggestion. Not sure how all of this could be coded in though.
Post by: voliol on September 13, 2022, 07:56:47 am
-snip-
If it doesn't end with a questionmark then it's not a question and thus rather in suggestion land ;). Here is a thread about sphere-related magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173189.0), if you want to continue the discussion in a place where Toady can dig it up more easily when it becomes relevant.
Post by: BlackAion on September 13, 2022, 10:48:03 am
-snip-
If it doesn't end with a questionmark then it's not a question and thus rather in suggestion land ;). Here is a thread about sphere-related magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173189.0), if you want to continue the discussion in a place where Toady can dig it up more easily when it becomes relevant.
Sorry, I did say it wasn't suggestion but I guess my imagination got the better of me.
Post by: Urist McSadist on September 13, 2022, 01:07:48 pm
1.Will we ever get to see the procedural tavern games?
2.During the Premium gameplay livestream I saw an option called "Economy: Normal/Hard". What does that mean?
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 13, 2022, 05:27:16 pm
1. Unless they've somehow decided they don't want to do them (unlikely), the answer would be that it's in the notes, but not in any short term detailed plans, and so there's no schedule.
Post by: voliol on September 15, 2022, 04:49:17 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 15, 2022, 11:05:52 am
Personally I'd allow embarking anywhere you please, assuming you've selected a suitable scenario (such as a no specific conditions one, but not the "peaceful easy start agricultural settlement" one [made that one up, but I hope the idea gets across]), for the sake of player freedom, as mentioned.
However, that doesn't mean further traffic to such an embark couldn't take account of the difficulties, such as some placed being out of reach of caravans, or only available to well defended ones that are mustered less frequently (and sometimes get through anyway), and with little all the way to no stream of visitors and migrants, at least until you've cleaned up the surroundings to make it safer.
Post by: WereDragon on September 18, 2022, 08:08:55 am
(the UI is the obvious one) but im hoping for some minor new mechanics to address things, i really like the idea of the irritation mechanic for instance. Super interested in what he has to say
Post by: Buttery_Mess on September 19, 2022, 10:38:14 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 20, 2022, 02:12:07 am
Quick question, how many different tiles are there for the same thing? For instance are there three different tiles for an unsmoothed stone floor or is there only one tile (in other words, piece of art work).As far as I understand it varies from tile to tile. I believe there are several variants of beds (from the same material), but "only" one for most creatures. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a defined pattern for how many variants you have for different categories of things.
I believe it was mentioned either in a discussion or by Toady at some point that some people may want to lock down the variants used to create a uniform look (such as all rooms, perhaps in a "set" of rooms, looking exactly the same), but don't know if there was any confirmation of the ability to do so.
Post by: IndigoFenix on September 20, 2022, 12:03:31 pm
Random guesses about Love and Lust:
- Less conflict (Love)
- More marriages and children (Love)
- More lovers (Love and Lust)
- More extra maritial affairs (Lust primarily)
- More master/student associations (Love, without any sexual connotations)
- Fewer murders (Love)
- More murders (of competitors, Lust)
Apart from that (and other things, of course), they'd also serve as opponents to the influence of other spheres. Some might not be head on opposition but rather at lesser angles, if the analogy makes sense. Similarly, they may modify other spheres.
- Love vs Hate
- Love vs Strife
- Love vs War
- Love vs Arrogance
- Love combining with Lust
- Love combining with Passion
- Lust vs Lethargy
- Lust combining with Hate and Strife (separately or combined)
- etc.
Spheres may also affect people's values, so people within a sphere's influence might be nudged toward aligned values. This can also be effected by making scholars within such influences more prone to write books promoting those values and less prone to write ones against them. Effects don't have to be obviously visible in the open to still affect things.
Another interesting sphere, conceptually, is Depravity. According to the sphere relationship data, Lust and Depravity are more closely associated with each other than they are to any other in-game sphere, with Depravity being opposed to Laws.
What I'm thinking is that Depravity is the act of defying socially-acceptable behavior, while Lust is the motivation that causes one to do so. It doesn't have to be exclusively sexual lust; lust can be for money (theft) or violence (murder/assault). So maybe when a creature evaluates whether it will perform an action, its urges are pitted against its values.
A god of Lust could increase the strength of urges, while a god of Depravity could decrease the strength of values.
Orrr Lust could be exclusively sexual, considering that there doesn't seem to be another sphere specifically associated with sex.
Post by: BlackAion on September 24, 2022, 03:17:17 pm
Random guesses about Love and Lust:
- Less conflict (Love)
- More marriages and children (Love)
- More lovers (Love and Lust)
- More extra maritial affairs (Lust primarily)
- More master/student associations (Love, without any sexual connotations)
- Fewer murders (Love)
- More murders (of competitors, Lust)
Apart from that (and other things, of course), they'd also serve as opponents to the influence of other spheres. Some might not be head on opposition but rather at lesser angles, if the analogy makes sense. Similarly, they may modify other spheres.
- Love vs Hate
- Love vs Strife
- Love vs War
- Love vs Arrogance
- Love combining with Lust
- Love combining with Passion
- Lust vs Lethargy
- Lust combining with Hate and Strife (separately or combined)
- etc.
Spheres may also affect people's values, so people within a sphere's influence might be nudged toward aligned values. This can also be effected by making scholars within such influences more prone to write books promoting those values and less prone to write ones against them. Effects don't have to be obviously visible in the open to still affect things.
Another interesting sphere, conceptually, is Depravity. According to the sphere relationship data, Lust and Depravity are more closely associated with each other than they are to any other in-game sphere, with Depravity being opposed to Laws.
What I'm thinking is that Depravity is the act of defying socially-acceptable behavior, while Lust is the motivation that causes one to do so. It doesn't have to be exclusively sexual lust; lust can be for money (theft) or violence (murder/assault). So maybe when a creature evaluates whether it will perform an action, its urges are pitted against its values.
A god of Lust could increase the strength of urges, while a god of Depravity could decrease the strength of values.
Orrr Lust could be exclusively sexual, considering that there doesn't seem to be another sphere specifically associated with sex.
Lust could be non-sexual in nature hence why I thought that it was a sphere that supports other spheres. But everything non-sexual about Lust has been co-opted by other Spheres or by Depravity thus the only thing left would things of the sexual nature.
Post by: WereDragon on September 26, 2022, 02:15:38 pm
Do you foresee any problems with the future of the fortress and similar community centric practices given the presumably enlarged community?
Post by: voliol on September 27, 2022, 03:18:29 am
And if it is, is there some way to do this for objects other than creatures, since the current creature variations only work on those? And is there a way of changing what creature variations have been assigned at an earlier stage, e.g. changing SLUG_MAN to use ANIMAL_PERSON instead of ANIMAL_PERSON_LEGLESS?
Post by: Inarius on September 27, 2022, 07:56:04 am
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on September 28, 2022, 09:51:06 am
Do you know if what you have done for Fortress will help to convert Adventure mode to new UI and graphical mode ? And which part will remain ?
Oh man, I just realized that: once adventure mode is in the steam version, it will put dwarf fortress in competition with Core Keeper. That will be interesting.
I haven't done that much adventure mode*, Can you build walls and the like?
*Other than dying of thirst in a sinister swamp because the ponds were frozen.
Post by: Inarius on September 28, 2022, 10:13:18 am
But my question was more about UI and graphics than in gameplay/content.
Post by: Ziusudra on September 28, 2022, 10:18:55 am
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on September 28, 2022, 12:39:14 pm
Actually, you can build walls and the like in camps, though it is limited to wood that you get from felling trees. See https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Camp#Adventurer_camps and https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Adventurer_mode_gameplay#Woodcutting.2C_building_and_site_management
I bet the elves aren't very happy about that.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on September 28, 2022, 08:23:28 pm
I bet the elves aren't very happy
About what? The coming update?
Post by: Randomizer on September 29, 2022, 04:45:53 pm
Post by: Su on September 29, 2022, 05:30:36 pm
Practicality of playing on a 16-16 map. With all the code updates for the big release as well as future updates, will the game ever be able to be played on a full 16-16 map? It would be a unique challenge making minecarts much more necessary. It is something I would really like to do.
even if it was incredibly well optimised, even with the best hardware on the planet - i don't think it'll ever be possible to run df at that kind of scale, and certainly not with a living world. it's just too big.
a more reasonable hope might be that you can have a few extra tiles - say 4x4 to 5x5 - and a slightly larger world / longer history.
Post by: voliol on September 29, 2022, 05:37:07 pm
Practicality of playing on a 16-16 map. With all the code updates for the big release as well as future updates, will the game ever be able to be played on a full 16-16 map? It would be a unique challenge making minecarts much more necessary. It is something I would really like to do.
even if it was incredibly well optimised, even with the best hardware on the planet - i don't think it'll ever be possible to run df at that kind of scale, and certainly not with a living world. it's just too big.
a more reasonable hope might be that you can have a few extra tiles - say 4x4 to 5x5 - and a slightly larger world / longer history.
I'm thinking it might work if the map rewrite will allow for flatter embarks, where only the surface layers are loaded. Though 16x16 is very large yet.
Post by: Paaaad on September 29, 2022, 06:26:24 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on September 30, 2022, 02:55:15 am
The Dwarf Fortress year consists of 12 equal Months... But there are actually precisely 13 Lunar Cycles in each year. Is there any particular reason why these numbers don't match?Presumably because it's a simplified approximation of how things are on Earth in the real world, where the lunar cycles don't match a year at all, offsetting them from both the months and the year.
Adjusting things such that the lunar cycles actually match a year is nice from a mathematical neatness standpoint, and it also removes the need to calculate them, as a pre calculated table can be used instead, saving on a few CPU cycles.
Practicality of playing on a 16-16 map. With all the code updates for the big release as well as future updates, will the game ever be able to be played on a full 16-16 map? It would be a unique challenge making minecarts much more necessary. It is something I would really like to do.Adding onto the previous responses: Only time will tell how playable it will be. There's also the issue of how low an FPS you consider "playable".
I would expect it to be possible to run it in the sense that it won't crash, assuming you have enough memory (the sum of physical and virtual).
A 16*16 embark, or even larger (assuming the post rewrite sizes remain approximately the same as the current one) might be an interesting test case in a release test suite though, embarking in a minimum size world. Embark, do some standard post embark stuff, and, if the performance is acceptable, do a lot of digging to increase the amount of map loaded. Verify that it doesn't crash and no weird stuff is observed.
Post by: clinodev on September 30, 2022, 05:23:34 pm
Kind of a long question from a user named
They've signed up for a Bay 12 Forum, but hadn't been approved yet when I posted this.
Quote from:
Before the wall of text hits, I wanted to say I am very excited by the artwork you showed today, and I am extremely excited by the statement "The last bit we need to update is the buildings."
Will certain materials be grouped together as the same color for simplicity just like in the f2p Dwarf Fortress game? (i.e. Andesite, Basalt, Chromite, Claystone, Diorite, Gabbro, Graphite, Hornblende, Ilmenite, Jet, Mica, Pyrolusite, Rhyolite, Shale, and Slate all being Dark Gray in appearance.)
If not, will there be a specific color for ever possible construction material?
71 types of wood (including "normal" and "wagon")
12 non-economic stones (Shale, Granite, Gneiss, etc.)
13 economic stones (Marble, Obsidian, etc.)
40 "other" stones (Stones found within deposits of other stones. i.e. "Periclase" veins are sometimes found in Marble layers.)
17 ores (Native metals and minerals like Galena)
25 types of metal (pure and alloys)
3 types of glass (green, clear, crystal)
3 types of ceramic bricks (earthenware, stoneware, and porcelain)
6 bars (Ash, Charcoal, Coke, Pearlash, Potash, and Soap)
190 total colors for constructed materials?
If every material gets its own color, will all 65 types of boulders have different colors to distinguish them from their brick counter parts? (eco, non-eco, and "other" stone)
Will there be variations in the final product beyond just color?
I know that roads made with boulders are given the "rough" modifier, while roads made with cut stone are not. Will that "rough" modifier be applied visually?
Will there be a visual difference between the materials I use in the construction (i.e. Wood, Stone, Ore, and Brick) or will they all follow the same design and just palette swap?
Will objects like wheelbarrows and minecarts also have varying color palettes, or will this super cool feature be limited to construction?
Bonus Round:
Will you finally be implementing Pearls, coral, and Amber into the game?
[Edit: I don't know where I got "Fred" from, their name is Rick, and according to Steam has always been Rick. I can only blame overwork catching up after COVID.]
Post by: Toady One on October 01, 2022, 04:20:02 pm
Quote from: WereDragon
What do you mean divine metal in fortress mode? How will we be able to get our hands on it? Will we be able to get different variations?
delphonso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403485#msg8403485
There's a new way! You can't work the material yourself but you can get items.
Quote from: ZM5
In regards to the new mod loading system, how will total conversions be handled?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403532#msg8403532
Yeah, it hasn't changed since voliol mentioned it. The player has to pop the vanilla stuff out of the load order - you can set your mod's conflicts to explicitly excluding vanilla stuff so the player won't be able to run it with vanilla stuff in there, which should help. But there isn't any kind of meta system where it can also set load orders automatically at this time.
Quote from: RockCat
Is Technological progress planned? As in Tech being researched and developed over time, be it by player's request or organically during worldgen.
Currently the world has a stagnant tech level which i don't find fun... or !!FUN!! after all who wouldn't love to show our elven friends some new super fast flying sticks or funny explosion sticks!
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8404091#msg8404091
Yeah, you can do research in the library currently, but almost none of it matters (it does affect writing types available, maybe something else but maybe not.) We have to be careful just taking things away from people, because in the end, that's the core aspect of a game-style research system - gating stuff/complexity/etc. But we're all for being able to play in different technological eras and for having a longer fort be able to branch across eras. It will just take some care and time.
Quote from: hirsute_offender
Would it be possible to make the transition a little smoother, by making the elements slide from one tile to the next?
BlueManedHawk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8404361#msg8404361
The engine can't handle it currently, and it's something we'd like to explore once we can upgrade to something more practical. But I think another problem is that people can move very fast, and it might look worse if they slide in that case. But we'll try at some point.
Quote from: DoorKeeper
Regarding game dir nomenclature: does "raw" originally stand for "Rules As Written"? Or is the folder called raw in the sense that it contains "raw data"?
Also, what are "tokens", "flags" and "tags" in your own words? Are the three terms synonymous w/ each other? They are often used interchangeably by mostly everyone here. I ask b/c when you use the terms in your posts, you appear to use tag and flag interchangeably, but usually use token in a different sense.
From what I understand you would not call AMPHIBIOUS or LARGE_PREDATOR tokens, but call them tags (specifically creature tags). In most definitions, a token is an instance of a type of object, right? So DOG is a token, and CREATURE is the type; DOG would be an instance of CREATURE. Or BLUEBERRY is a token of the object type PLANT, SKIN_TEMPLATE is a token of the object type MATERIAL_TEMPLATE (or the object type TISSUE_TEMPLATE, depending on context). FLUX is a token of REACTION_CLASS, ANGER is a token of PERSONALITY, GLACIER is a token of BIOME, etc. But PHYS_ATT_RANGE wouldn't be called a token b/c it isn't an object itself... I hope I didn't contradict myself.
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8404473#msg8404473
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8404509#msg8404509
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8404965#msg8404965
Doorkeeper (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8405083#msg8405083
Yeah, I was just thinking of "raw data".
Don't have anything to add to the responses regarding tokens/tags - I just wasn't careful with the words, and don't know the correct terms. I try, and sometimes fail, to reserve flag for specific bits in objects that indicate some property, like the flag that says whether a creature is a ghost or not.
Quote from: Paaaad
Do you have any idea what the new release number will be? Currently, it's 0.47.05. Are we looking at another 0.4x.00 release, or are we going to be hitting or even exceeding the 0.5x.00 milestone?
I still have to calculate it out according to the old system. Tentatively 50. Without the zero in front since Steam may have issues flagging us, and we're certainly not unfinished in the sense of an early access title.
Quote from: Fikilili
1. The fantasy landscape has changed a whole lot ever since DF was released. Do you still see the game as a "generic fantasy simulator" or something that has its own sort of twist on the fantasy genre now?
2. Speaking of fantasy, have you been reading/watching/playing anything fantasy related? If so, does your lectures/watchings/playthroughs give you inspiration for future DF content?
3. Sometimes I look at DF's beastiary and wonder why was this or that animal/fantasy creature was added. What exactly qualifies as a good candidate for a new addition to the game's roster of creatures to you?
1. It's still reasonably generic, but it couldn't avoid developing some of it's own character. Hopefully the magic release will shake that up somewhat. I'd be happier to cover more ground.
2. Been watching the new Lotr show, feels like an obligation to watch dwarfy material ha ha. Read the Southern Reach trilogy and Borne not long ago. Although another Le Carre and all the O'Brian sailing books relate a little more to planned development.
3. Having a funny picture in our little notebook. We've been remiss in doing many special attacks or special behaviors.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Are there any plans to revise the list of critters that can be Tamed and War-Trained before Steam? For example; Grizzly Bear has both, Black Bear has neither. Dragons can be war-trained, but are born Adult and so never fully Tamed in the first place.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8406155#msg8406155
Yeah, it's hard to make a lot more sweeping changes, but certainly having a bit more war training availale would be game-worthy at least. Getting a dragon on nest box is another matter.
Quote
Quote from: BlackAionWill the Myth and Magic Release have gods of all categories (e.g. Gods of War, Sea, Lust etc.) and with all the respective magics that come with those titles?
Like will the physical manifestation of say a God Of Nature cause various magical creatures to come existence, magical forests to be made, and increase the number of Megabeasts?Quote from: BlackAionThanks for the quick reply but I got to ask, what powers would a God of Love/Lust even have? I am having a hard time figuring out what impacts they would have on the world that is significant but stays PG-13.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8406155#msg8406155
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8406419#msg8406419
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8406449#msg8406449
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8406491#msg8406491
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8406559#msg8406559
IndigoFenix: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8409078#msg8409078
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8410965#msg841096
I don't know what kind of coverage we'll get at first, since there are a lot of spheres. But the discussion here is the general idea. We have various ideas jotted down - love/lust etc. gods are common in the myths of the world and the stories associated to them are pretty straightforward sometimes! They could kindle things between characters, etc. Sometimes this causes trouble all by itself. It doesn't always need to be broad world or empire level frequency effects - meddling can be very specific.
Quote from: UristMcSadist
1.Will we ever get to see the procedural tavern games?
2.During the Premium gameplay livestream I saw an option called "Economy: Normal/Hard". What does that mean?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8406662#msg8406662
1. Don't have anything to add to PatrikLundell's reply there. We didn't get to them when we added taverns, and looping back around has traditionally taken time.
2. It sets the triggers for baron etc. to be much higher. It's a little early to really dig in on that, but we're getting started on stuff like that, anyway.
Quote from: voliol
Currently, dwarves can embark at any place in the world (barring mountains, water) regardless of how difficult or dangerous the travel there would be. Will this ever change, or will the dwarves always be able to set up a fort in the middle of an evil biome, for the sake of player freedom?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8407282#msg8407282
In addition to what PatrikLundell said about start scenarios and the difficulty of getting to where you are, another element might be the (optional) journey to the location. This is something we've tossed about for years and years, and adventure mode is only slowly catching up, but it would be cool to have the option to bring your group and their starting goods all the way to where you are going. But I think this would be really rough on new players and also people that just don't want to deal with it, and they should just get to splort wherever. At some midway point, it could sim a few troubles that happen on the way and incorporate them into the start scenario.
Quote from: WereDragon
What kind of changes are planned for adventure mode? By which i mean: what shortcomings do you think it has, and what are your ideas for solving said problems
(the UI is the obvious one) but im hoping for some minor new mechanics to address things, i really like the idea of the irritation mechanic for instance. Super interested in what he has to say
I mean, it's pretty terrible on almost every RPG metric. Some of this is good/different, but a lot of it is not. The villains release adventure mode portion which we delayed was part of the plan to fix it, the army and magic stuff are more. A lot of the upcoming development (the list before Premium came around) is directed at finding the balance between sim and reclaiming some of the more traditional bits in a sim-friendly form.
But if you mean just for the initial reintroduction of adventure mode after launch, we're still working it out. As you say, every menu is going to be redone anyway so we're going to be rethinking them all. In practice, on the dwarf side, a lot of the well-received changes happened kind of suddenly, as we were muddling along, and I expect this will be similar. There's a tension between making small improvements and just doing the villain stuff, since adventure mode could really use some serious improvement and isn't exactly ready to be thrown out to a large audience as an "rpg" in any way. But I think it's also harmful to delay it too long, since it's sitting right there and there are cool parts about it already.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Quick question, how many different tiles are there for the same thing? For instance are there three different tiles for an unsmoothed stone floor or is there only one tile (in other words, piece of art work).
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8408946#msg8408946
Yeah, it's kind of all over the place. For instance, you have five variants for a central blood spatter tile (surrounded by blood on all sides), and four for isolated smaller spatter, but only one for the edges currently. Several of the floors have 4 variants, but many don't. A lot of it is just down to time. Variants are cheap memory-and-code-wise, but while the artists are still finishing up required art we can't have them do a bunch of variants as well. I expect this is something where we'll be increasing the capacity as we go, and also increasing the general sorts of variants (larger 1x2 2x2 tiles etc.) to break up some of the larger repetition patterns.
Quote from: WereDragon
Why are dwarves unable to wield melee and ranged weapons simultaneously (as they are meant to function at least) they can carry both, and will train and fight with their melee weapons just fine, but the second a fight starts or you set them to train their ranged skills, they drop all of their picked up ammunition and get stuck in a loop trying to pick it up again (or ignore it to fight their target and come back) are they just not meant to be able to, or is it a bug.
Do you foresee any problems with the future of the fortress and similar community centric practices given the presumably enlarged community?
It's just not supported, and should be disallowed until it is.
Hard to say! Forum could crash on launch day if a zillion people sign up, but since forums aren't as common these days, there might only be a manageable influx, and more people will end up on reddit and the kitfox discord etc., or stay on the steam forums. I have absolutely no sense of where forum traffic will be on that spectrum, and I can't really think of any steps I should be taking now to mitigate it, though I'm sure there are some. The forum can certainly handle more people than are currently here, though not lots and lots and lots more. Once we got a server upgrade some while back the gateway-type crashes haven't been happening anymore, and I'm not sure it needs another upgrade. We do have some room for more upgrades to handle the influx.
Quote from: voliol
According to the latest blogpost we will be able to "append a few lines to existing entries". If I understand this right it should also be possible to remove or alter most tokens by having these new tokens be creature variation tokens (CV_REMOVE_TAG and CV_CONVERT_TAG). Is this right?
And if it is, is there some way to do this for objects other than creatures, since the current creature variations only work on those? And is there a way of changing what creature variations have been assigned at an earlier stage, e.g. changing SLUG_MAN to use ANIMAL_PERSON instead of ANIMAL_PERSON_LEGLESS?
Yeah, that's correct - I didn't mention creature variations since variations don't yet exist for the other objects. I'd like to generalize the variation concept (or however it goes) but there's just not going to be time on the first pass. The ability to cut should go a long way at least for targeted mods that want to alter and replace non-creature entries. I'm not sure SELECT_X will have much use beyond creatures since appending isn't too too useful on its own, but it'll be there for when the variations arrive.
Variations are applied as they are loaded, so you can't alter existing ones. You'd have to apply an additional variation or delete the slug man and replace it. I'm not sure if we should do several load passes or not - I think that starts to get really messy, but maybe there's some clear solution. Right now there's just the load/meta pass (variations + cut + select + log at equal priority, done in the order encountered), and the actual processing. Ideally people probably want to script the passes as well. Presumably going over to an actual scripting language provides solutions for these problems, at least somewhat.
Quote from: Inarius
Do you know if what you have done for Fortress will help to convert Adventure mode to new UI and graphical mode ? And which part will remain ?
Oh definitely. We have a lot of reusable UI art, and stuff like code for scrollbars etc. is all relevant as well. But there is still a lot of interface that just needs to be tackled
(wrestling, conversations, movement, etc. etc.) and the fort stuff doesn't really inform that at all, aside from building some general experience.
Not sure what you mean by the part and the remaining.
Quote from: Randomizer
Practicality of playing on a 16-16 map. With all the code updates for the big release as well as future updates, will the game ever be able to be played on a full 16-16 map? It would be a unique challenge making minecarts much more necessary. It is something I would really like to do.
Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8412811#msg8412811
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8412814#msg8412814
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8412984#msg8412984
Yeah, that's just really really big, especially if you're also asking for 150 elevation levels with all of the active underground life etc etc.
We were hoping to be able to do flat ones after the map rewrite, so you could combine it with the army stuff to have a more full-scale battle over a large field, possibly on a separate camera while your fort is loaded. Even this might be wishful thinking if there's a lot of pathing, but memory wise, on a perfectly flat map that's only the equivalent of 16 more Z levels in a 4x4 fort or something like that. But qualifying loads based on map flatness is also pretty weird. It's going to be interesting to see what goes in and what doesn't.
Quote from: Paaaad
The Dwarf Fortress year consists of 12 equal Months... But there are actually precisely 13 Lunar Cycles in each year. Is there any particular reason why these numbers don't match?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8412984#msg8412984
Yeah, it's definitely a little weird. I just wanted the seasons to divide evenly, and I didn't want the moon to always be full on the same numeric day, but there are several other ways to do that.
Quote from: Rick
Will certain materials be grouped together as the same color for simplicity just like in the f2p Dwarf Fortress game? (i.e. Andesite, Basalt, Chromite, Claystone, Diorite, Gabbro, Graphite, Hornblende, Ilmenite, Jet, Mica, Pyrolusite, Rhyolite, Shale, and Slate all being Dark Gray in appearance.)
If not, will there be a specific color for ever possible construction material?
71 types of wood (including "normal" and "wagon")
12 non-economic stones (Shale, Granite, Gneiss, etc.)
13 economic stones (Marble, Obsidian, etc.)
40 "other" stones (Stones found within deposits of other stones. i.e. "Periclase" veins are sometimes found in Marble layers.)
17 ores (Native metals and minerals like Galena)
25 types of metal (pure and alloys)
3 types of glass (green, clear, crystal)
3 types of ceramic bricks (earthenware, stoneware, and porcelain)
6 bars (Ash, Charcoal, Coke, Pearlash, Potash, and Soap)
190 total colors for constructed materials?
If every material gets its own color, will all 65 types of boulders have different colors to distinguish them from their brick counter parts? (eco, non-eco, and "other" stone)
Will there be variations in the final product beyond just color?
I know that roads made with boulders are given the "rough" modifier, while roads made with cut stone are not. Will that "rough" modifier be applied visually?
Will there be a visual difference between the materials I use in the construction (i.e. Wood, Stone, Ore, and Brick) or will they all follow the same design and just palette swap?
Will objects like wheelbarrows and minecarts also have varying color palettes, or will this super cool feature be limited to construction?
Bonus Round:
Will you finally be implementing Pearls, coral, and Amber into the game?
It uses the solid state colors from the raws. Each raw color is mapped to a palette. So several stone/wood products look the same, but there's some variety. Boulder and brick workshops etc. of the same material look the same. Some furniture and constructed floors etc. show different tiles entirely between wood/stone/metal/glass, but that's also not universal. Many items (but not all) use the raw color of the material and the associated palette. There are a few variations in products, but it's not common.
There's room to improve this of course, but it takes time to draw, and we haven't supported stuff we haven't drawn generally, since that also takes time.
No plans to add those materials for the release. No idea when anything is happening there.
Post by: voliol on October 02, 2022, 02:21:41 am
The SELECT_X functionality should be important to entity objects, since different mods will want to add PERMITTED_REACTION / PERMITTED_BUILDING to especially the dwarven civilization.
Post by: clinodev on October 02, 2022, 03:43:13 am
Post by: BlackAion on October 02, 2022, 01:53:07 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on October 02, 2022, 05:50:50 pm
Post by: pettyrelic on October 02, 2022, 06:06:40 pm
It's fairly easy to just plug your fortress up and never "lose".
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 02, 2022, 06:20:01 pm
Will the Steam Release see building destroyers taking down constructed walls?This is part of the updated sieges additions that were planned to follow the Villains update before Steam suddenly derailed everything (in a good way, I guess).
It's fairly easy to just plug your fortress up and never "lose".
So no. But should happen before the Big Wait.
Post by: BlackAion on October 03, 2022, 02:51:18 pm
There will probably be secrets and effects related to lust/love/etc spheres etc yeah, but there's not going to be anything even remotely explicit, or even suggestive, because Toady has always insisted on keeping everything PG(13ish,, including all the violence)
Oh yeah but I expect any god to be able to make beings with [POWER] and nymphs/succubi are what a God Of Love/Lust would make. He will probably make
both some kind of weird parasite insectoid or something which Im fine with lol.
Post by: TheFlame52 on October 03, 2022, 06:44:46 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 04, 2022, 12:50:39 am
Why don't hair, nails, and a couple of other tissues that grow back in real life have healing rates? They aren't exactly vital organs, but it sucks losing a dwarf to an infected beard wound that won't heal.
The beard is the dwarf.
Post by: Button on October 05, 2022, 10:03:54 am
In the past I've prioritized processor speed over core count because of Dwarf Fortress, and I'd like to know whether I should continue to do so, lol
Post by: Schmaven on October 05, 2022, 12:41:03 pm
I'm going to be upgrading my PC soon. How is the new version's multithreading/multiple CPU core use looking?
In the past I've prioritized processor speed over core count because of Dwarf Fortress, and I'd like to know whether I should continue to do so, lol
I was under the impression that it would involve a significant amount of work for Dwarf Fortress to be able to take advantage of multithreading/multiple CPU cores, like big wait kind of work. CPU cache size might be relevant to some extent, given that it is what feeds data to the CPU to process, but I'm not sure of a way to check for bottlenecks there if they even exist. RAM speed may also be a factor in fort FPS. Large RAM volumes on the cheap typically involve sacrifices on speed. Lower CAS latency is generally better, all other things being equal, but there are several variables there that all come into play.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 06, 2022, 03:12:40 am
Making DF multi threaded would be a monumental task that may not even provide that much benefit, given that the main bottleneck seems to be memory bandwidth rather than raw CPU speed.
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on October 07, 2022, 10:01:17 am
The main bottleneck seems to be memory bandwidth rather than raw CPU speed.
PatrikLundell is right, The wiki recommends fast ram and a large cache (http://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:System_requirements#CPU).
Reducing memory usage/size would probably be a better optimization, Since more data could fit in the L1 cache(Which is very fast).
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 07, 2022, 11:24:59 am
The main bottleneck seems to be memory bandwidth rather than raw CPU speed.
PatrikLundell is right, The wiki recommends fast ram and a large cache (http://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:System_requirements#CPU).
Reducing memory usage/size would probably be a better optimization, Since more data could fit in the L1 cache(Which is very fast).
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t each core in a multi-core processor have it’s own L1 cache? Currently (with DF being single-threaded), the game only uses the L1 cache on a single core. Would it be possible to split the map into multiple l x m x n 3d segments and have each segment simulated by a separate core, with an additional core handling communications and synchronization between segments (and, of course, an additional core handling graphics)?
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on October 07, 2022, 11:54:37 am
PatrikLundell is right, The wiki recommends fast ram and a large cache (http://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:System_requirements#CPU).
Reducing memory usage/size would probably be a better optimization, Since more data could fit in the L1 cache(Which is very fast).
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t each core in a multi-core processor have it’s own L1 cache? Currently (with DF being single-threaded), the game only uses the L1 cache on a single core. Would it be possible to split the map into multiple l x m x n 3d segments and have each segment simulated by a separate core, with an additional core handling communications and synchronization between segments (and, of course, an additional core handling graphics)?
Sounds like a good system to me, But the overhead of communication might be slower than using the L2/L3 cache that is shared between cores, I think benchmarking will be best. But this is just my opinion, I'm not a hardware guy.
On the topic of multithreading take a look at this(dwarffortress.exe):
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JVtFfLH/Screen-Shot-2022-10-07-at-11-44-31-AM.png)
I am using dfhack though, So it might be different.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 07, 2022, 04:13:31 pm
- Rewriting of the code to support it, which is a lot of work (or, more probably, an enormous amount of work).
- Code supporting multi threading requires data synchronization to ensure the data used is the current data, isn't in the middle of being changed (lots of "interesting" things can happen when half of a structure is new and the other half is old), and apart from the ample opportunity for hard to reproduce bugs, it also adds overhead that cuts into the savings (and can cost more than the time saved).
C(++) is also unsuitable for multi threading, although it's used for a lot of things it's not suited for because a lot of people's only tool is a hammer, so every problem is a nail.
Post by: Fikilili on October 08, 2022, 10:56:07 am
Originally I was gonna ask about boats because you mentionned O'Brian's sailing books, but hey, too early to talk about that.
So given that we'll get the Myth and Magic update after the Steam Release (?), I wanted to ask a few questions regarding that.
Real-Life mythologies, although sometimes chaotic and having varying degrees of consistency depending on the period, have some form of inner-logic. There is a reason for this or that god to be there, or this or that agent of the gods to exist. DF's current handling of the gods is quite ubiquitous at times. Do you plan on actually retooling or entirely reworking the way Myths work so to generate some that are more accurate to the way real mythologies are formed/written?
Post by: voliol on October 08, 2022, 11:45:48 am
Thanks for the replies Tarn! Here is a new batch of question for the next FotF!
Originally I was gonna ask about boats because you mentionned O'Brian's sailing books, but hey, too early to talk about that.
So given that we'll get the Myth and Magic update after the Steam Release (?), I wanted to ask a few questions regarding that.
Real-Life mythologies, although sometimes chaotic and having varying degrees of consistency depending on the period, have some form of inner-logic. There is a reason for this or that god to be there, or this or that agent of the gods to exist. DF's current handling of the gods is quite ubiquitous at times. Do you plan on actually retooling or entirely reworking the way Myths work so to generate some that are more accurate to the way real mythologies are formed/written?
I expect the answer from Toady to be simply "yes", as it is indeed planned to be half of that update. There are some old demos of it (as in showcases, the myth-demo software isn't available to us), and he also talks a bunch about it in the recent DF Talks. #24 I think has the highest concentration.
Post by: Putnam on October 08, 2022, 06:22:45 pm
C(++) is also unsuitable for multi threading, although it's used for a lot of things it's not suited for because a lot of people's only tool is a hammer, so every problem is a nail.
Definitely can't agree here, I've used it for multithreading without much pain in the past, mostly with C++17's execution policies (https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/algorithm#Execution_policies)
Post by: BlueManedHawk on October 09, 2022, 05:22:28 pm
Post by: BlackAion on October 10, 2022, 05:36:58 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 11, 2022, 03:44:44 am
Would it be possible in the Myth and Magic expansion to create sky worlds? Like worlds where the continents are floating and the oceans are an endless sea of clouds? Or worlds where you live on the back of a turtle or worlds where it is literally one big giant tree?In principle the answer is yes. The goal is to allow for these kind of things. However, the first arc certainly won't implement everything, and may only have small entries into these kind of things, and it may even wait until the moving equipment arc to actually be implemented to any extent. Floating islands and cloud worlds are definitely thinks that the map rewrite part is intended to enable, but providing a foundation is not the same as implementing the contents on top of it.
Post by: Fikilili on October 11, 2022, 08:46:14 am
Right. Might as well come up with another question then.Thanks for the replies Tarn! Here is a new batch of question for the next FotF!
Originally I was gonna ask about boats because you mentionned O'Brian's sailing books, but hey, too early to talk about that.
So given that we'll get the Myth and Magic update after the Steam Release (?), I wanted to ask a few questions regarding that.
Real-Life mythologies, although sometimes chaotic and having varying degrees of consistency depending on the period, have some form of inner-logic. There is a reason for this or that god to be there, or this or that agent of the gods to exist. DF's current handling of the gods is quite ubiquitous at times. Do you plan on actually retooling or entirely reworking the way Myths work so to generate some that are more accurate to the way real mythologies are formed/written?
I expect the answer from Toady to be simply "yes", as it is indeed planned to be half of that update. There are some old demos of it (as in showcases, the myth-demo software isn't available to us), and he also talks a bunch about it in the recent DF Talks. #24 I think has the highest concentration.
Post by: Shepanator on October 11, 2022, 11:31:43 am
Thanks and much love
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on October 11, 2022, 01:13:03 pm
Are there plans to add more gameplay features for forts with 'Mountainhome' status, e.g. ability to direct the overall civilisation, declare wars, expand the civ, etc? Or is there any other 'end-game' type content you have been thinking about?
Thanks and much love
Having an optional 4x strategy game would be cool, But this would probably tie in better with Adventure Mode IMO. Becoming king could allow you to manipulate things on a larger scale.
Post by: Bloodwarrior on October 12, 2022, 02:09:49 pm
Post by: voliol on October 12, 2022, 02:21:48 pm
I wonder will the myth and magic update have stuff like people who became saints or siddha and will you be able to become one how do you make this lime green?
Either select the text and use the "Change Color" drop-down menu, or put the color tag/ending tag before the text
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]like this[/color](becomes "like this")
Post by: KittyTac on October 13, 2022, 11:30:38 am
"Civilization mode" would be so cool, worldgen is already kinda like an AI-only 4X game. And think of the possibilities for adventurers like court intrigue to become king or simply staging a coup and then fighting a civil war against the now-dead king's loyalists.Are there plans to add more gameplay features for forts with 'Mountainhome' status, e.g. ability to direct the overall civilisation, declare wars, expand the civ, etc? Or is there any other 'end-game' type content you have been thinking about?
Thanks and much love
Having an optional 4x strategy game would be cool, But this would probably tie in better with Adventure Mode IMO. Becoming king could allow you to manipulate things on a larger scale.
Post by: Tachytaenius on October 14, 2022, 08:01:29 am
Post by: BlackAion on October 14, 2022, 09:43:29 pm
Post by: Putnam on October 14, 2022, 11:17:13 pm
Will the appearance description of any dwarf/human/elf/etc. receive an overhaul as well in preparation for the myth and magic update? The thoughts and preferences of any individual goes in-depth into any particular dwarfs personality but doesnt really describes their build or physique other than saying they are weak or strong. As there been any thoughts in simplifying the personality lore and adding more depth to physique descriptions?
It actually goes into detail, it's just that the extremes are rather rare, so you don't see them that often. But there are a lot of physique descriptors, like, a whole lot. Here's all of them:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: BlackAion on October 14, 2022, 11:32:35 pm
Will the appearance description of any dwarf/human/elf/etc. receive an overhaul as well in preparation for the myth and magic update? The thoughts and preferences of any individual goes in-depth into any particular dwarfs personality but doesnt really describes their build or physique other than saying they are weak or strong. As there been any thoughts in simplifying the personality lore and adding more depth to physique descriptions?
It actually goes into detail, it's just that the extremes are rather rare, so you don't see them that often. But there are a lot of physique descriptors, like, a whole lot. Here's all of them:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yes but each line is just that. One singular line describing that particular dwarfs physique. Considering this is Dwarf Fortress, I was honestly expecting it to go in depth into the fat to muscle ratio of a single arm, how long that arm is, how thick his/her arm bones are etc.
Post by: MaxTheFox on October 15, 2022, 12:28:51 am
Post by: BlackAion on October 15, 2022, 09:24:01 am
Simplifying personality to add random shit like "his left arm is slightly more muscular than the rest of his body" sounds atrocious. Either have both at the same time or change nothing.
Fair enough. I would take both over nothing any day.
Post by: Putnam on October 17, 2022, 01:28:24 am
Will the appearance description of any dwarf/human/elf/etc. receive an overhaul as well in preparation for the myth and magic update? The thoughts and preferences of any individual goes in-depth into any particular dwarfs personality but doesnt really describes their build or physique other than saying they are weak or strong. As there been any thoughts in simplifying the personality lore and adding more depth to physique descriptions?
It actually goes into detail, it's just that the extremes are rather rare, so you don't see them that often. But there are a lot of physique descriptors, like, a whole lot. Here's all of them:
[spoiler]snip
Yes but each line is just that. One singular line describing that particular dwarfs physique. Considering this is Dwarf Fortress, I was honestly expecting it to go in depth into the fat to muscle ratio of a single arm, how long that arm is, how thick his/her arm bones are etc.
I mean, the game doesn't go into specific detail like that, uh, anywhere much at all? Technically it stores all that info (e.g. a random dwarf I made just now in the arena has a skin:fat:muscle:bone ratio of 17:89:446:446), but it doesn't show you much of that at all.
Post by: BreadnRoses on October 20, 2022, 10:38:13 am
My degrees are in economics and political science and both topics have also been hobbies of mine for years. Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of . . . malarkey? for lack of a better term . . . in both fields.
I know you tend to do a lot of reading. Regarding economics and political science, it seems like most of the literature is either heavy personal opinion or straight up textbooks (econ textbooks are notorious for being outdated in content among academics). I wanted to offer up (from someone with inside knowledge) some books which would let you jump into the nitty gritty of the fields and which don't lie about their biases or hide alternative viewpoints (everything in political science and economics will always have a bias. many works people think are "not political" or "unbiased" are often just works that they already agree with lol).
Some works to give you a nice breadth and depth and with linkages to other areas would be:
Debt: The First 5000 Years by David Graeber
(a complete history of money and debt from before writing to the present across the world. incredibly good read, incredibly well researched and cited, and incredibly transformational in understanding debt, money, finance, economics, etc.)
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity by David Graeber and David Wengrow
(David and David are both anthropologists by training which gives them incredible insight into things which many economists and political scientists lack (speaking from experience and personal reflection). This book is a huge look into how the standard view of where society came from is oversimplified and outright wrong in many cases. it traces the history of how our modern thoughts on "society" and "civilization" and "equality" came about along. it's also a culmination of tons of research from across many fields all put together in one place for the first time. another fantastic and easy read and well cited.)
Debunking Economics by Steve Keen
(a clickbait title to be sure lol. This book is rather heavy on the math and i only bring it up so if you ever plan to implement neoclassical economic models (which i highly don't recommend, speaking as someone with a degree in neoclassical economics) it will be obvious why a lot of them don't seem to work)
Principles of Comparative Politics by Clark, Golder, and Nadenichek Golder
(the only textbook on the list. viewed within the empirical political science field as somewhat of the gold standard for a textbook in poli sci. the chapter on "Veto Player Theory" is particularly worth checking out.)
Post by: voliol on October 22, 2022, 07:03:54 am
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 23, 2022, 04:48:24 am
Simplifying personality to add random shit like "his left arm is slightly more muscular than the rest of his body" sounds atrocious. Either have both at the same time or change nothing.
Unintentionally hilarious image, bit like the time you could get super strong from just swimming. Imagining that swinging a pickaxe all day just over-develops a dwarfs personal preference for right or left handedness leading to beefy mono-arms.
Post by: LuuBluum on October 23, 2022, 09:22:15 pm
The rest of that devlog made me incredibly excited for the release; thank you so much for your hard work!
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 23, 2022, 09:37:59 pm
Quote from: Devlog
bin storage jobs no longer stop other jobs from using the bin
I was just thinking about asking if you had any plans for fixing this bug before the Steam release. It’s what has been keeping me from using bins at all. The bugs concerning bins (especially that one) were said to make bins all but unusable and the general advice was to avoid bins like the plague.
Thank you for fixing it!
On a side note, I saw something about a “vermin catcher’s workshop”. What’s that about?
Post by: clinodev on October 23, 2022, 11:25:39 pm
On a side note, I saw something about a “vermin catcher’s workshop”. What’s that about?
I'm pretty sure he's just renamed the now misleadingly named kennel. Large animals which one would think should require a kennel are trained in pastures and animal training zones, while kennels are only required for training vermin.
Post by: Immortal-D on October 24, 2022, 01:42:25 pm
Post by: DeKaFu on October 25, 2022, 02:23:17 pm
Thank you, by the way. I absolutely adore this piece of art.
Post by: Corthalas on October 27, 2022, 11:25:32 am
Thanks for creating this amazing game, Toady!
Post by: Pillbo on October 27, 2022, 08:15:19 pm
Post by: voliol on October 28, 2022, 02:51:51 am
I would like to know more about necromancer experiments: the huge amalgations mentioned in legends Mode, which seem to rampage like (semi)megabeasts. Is it possible to meet them in fortress mode or adventure mode? Would two of the same species be able to breed? I would like to know if they could even break away from their necromancer and join societies.
Thanks for creating this amazing game, Toady!
The extracted raws example on the wiki ("hulk of Kortulon") has a male and female caste, so they should be able to breed if no other token stops it (like NIGHT_CREATURE). The example has no sapience tokens, so it wouldn't be able to join societies normally like the intelligent experiments do. Though that could mean it's treated like livestock so maybe you could steal some in a livestock raid?
The above all applies to the example, but it's possible there is some variance. Clown species can be generated with two gendered castes, or a single one, either gendered or ungendered. They can only breed in the first case. It's possible the same is true for experiments/amalgamations, and the one raws example on the wiki doesn't tell the whole story.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on October 28, 2022, 05:39:50 am
Post by: Doorkeeper on October 28, 2022, 01:32:52 pm
On the old consolidated development page, one of the categories of things to do was called "bloats". Considering that this is a word that generally has derogatory connotations, why was it selected to describe this category?
Bloat, when not describing a decomposing body, normally means extra or too much, that causes things to "swell up" and become worse over time. Common examples like code bloat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_bloat) or bloatware (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bloat), where devs add too much pointless features into a program to the point it's slow to load, takes too much disk space, and becomes too complicated to use. The caption directly above the bloat section on that dev page defines it perfectly: "Somewhat superfluous ideas..." Here, it's relating to feature bloat, or "feature creep" as it's more commonly known. Despite feature creep usually having a bad connotation (in programming sense), it is what made DF the game it is now and what formed this community, so I hope the remaining bloat features get included someday. Some of the ones marked incomplete has already been added in recent years I've noticed.
According to Wiktionary, bloat has a derogatory, dated meaning of "a worthless, dissipated fellow". Is this what you're referring to, or is there a new bad slang? The only times I've heard bloat used to describe a person in a negative light is when describing a juiced up bodybuilder, or somebody who drank too much soda quickly. Or those photos of malnourished babies. There's the frequent "bloated" zombie variant subtrope, but I've never seen anyone get offended by it, after all it IS a bloated, decomposing corpse. Regardless I find it weird that someone would compare a negative connotation of the word to how the word is used in the dev page. You could have easily websearched the word and figured it out on your own.
Post by: Ziusudra on October 28, 2022, 03:41:30 pm
I would like to know more about necromancer experiments: the huge amalgations mentioned in legends Mode, which seem to rampage like (semi)megabeasts. Is it possible to meet them in fortress mode or adventure mode? Would two of the same species be able to breed? I would like to know if they could even break away from their necromancer and join societies.It's some times possible to play as them in adventurer mode, because the sapient ones can join civilizations. As explained on the wiki:
Thanks for creating this amazing game, Toady!
Quote from: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Experiment
Experiments sometimes escape into the wild, and intelligent ones can rejoin civilization - in the latter case, they may become playable race options in adventurer mode.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on October 29, 2022, 10:06:10 am
According to Wiktionary, bloat has a derogatory, dated meaning of "a worthless, dissipated fellow". Is this what you're referring to, or is there a new bad slang?No. I was referring to the usage of "bloat" as a shorthand for code bloat or software bloat in a computer context.
Despite feature creep usually having a bad connotation (in programming sense), it is what made DF the game it is now[…]Is that really a good thing? I can't think of any way that bloat could possibly make a program better, and the examples i can think of that DF has (the first things that come to mind are the many redundant types of wood, stone, gems, etc. which don't have any significant differences between them) don't seem like exceptions.
Post by: LuuBluum on October 29, 2022, 08:30:21 pm
Also, similar to the bin changes, have you also considered making a similar change to bags/barrels? Farms in particular are notorious for seed barrels (and to a lesser extent, seed bags) having the same effect as bins.
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 30, 2022, 02:53:36 am
Similarly to the recent changes to the jeweler's workshop, are there plans to also adjust some of the other generic "do things with thing" tasks so that they can be made more functional? For instance, jobs at a farmer's workshop don't let you specify what to process, milling jobs don't let you specify what to mill, and cooking jobs don't let you specify what ingredients to use (you can broadly say what you want to allow to cook or not cook, but you can't, say, set up a cooking task specifically to cook away all that flour or sugar you keep producing).It can be noted that the functionality for specifying the components for tasks is present in DF, but the UI to use it isn't. Thus, you can specify what ingredients to use for a cooking task using a DFHack script, so that level of specification is purely a UI job (which still isn't done instantly).
Also, similar to the bin changes, have you also considered making a similar change to bags/barrels? Farms in particular are notorious for seed barrels (and to a lesser extent, seed bags) having the same effect as bins.
The other level of "use up all of the X using workshop Y" would be a Manager level meta task that could either be implemented with a Manager UI (and functionality) or a workshop UI (and functionality), or both. That would likely be a bit of work to implement, though.
Manager ability to devote certain tasks to specific workshops would be useful, though (e.g. web collection and processing only in the workshop actually located close to the caverns, for instance, and dedication of Craftdwarf workshops to specific professions, so their production won't be blocked by jobs the dorf allocated to the workshop doesn't do).
Post by: FlorpyDorp on October 30, 2022, 11:13:22 am
How does it feel to be resolving issues like that which you’ve had in the code for so long? Also, how are you prioritizing which bugs to fix/QoL stuff to add?
Does Kitfox have a stream of people new to the game getting fresh eyes on it to point out things that frustrate? Or is it mostly experienced dorfs giving suggestions, or do you feel you’ve got a good sense of what has needed fixing for awhile and just haven’t had time to do it until now?
Seems like a big priority for this release is making sure the thousands (millions?) of people who are first exposed don’t lose their minds with bugs/complexity right off the bat. Are you nervous about that period/response?
Post by: LuuBluum on October 30, 2022, 04:52:47 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on October 30, 2022, 04:56:45 pm
Just curious about this. Were there plans at one point to make blue glass or blue porcelain a thing?
I always forget when I mine this stuff, that I can't turn it into anything other than blue furniture.
Why do beetles live at the circus?
Lol sorry, no punch-line for this one! I just found a couple of these lil' buddies pokin' around in the slade while taking a stroll in adventure mode. I backpacked a couple of them back to the fortress to make for a neat little bug exhibit for the dwarves, and I couldn't help but wonder what they were doing down there.
Have you ever seen those sheep that live on the Isle of Man?
Image from Wikipedia:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Eric Blank on October 31, 2022, 05:15:27 am
Why is (kobold ore) cobaltite represented as a blue ore in game? And why can't we use it for anything?
Just curious about this. Were there plans at one point to make blue glass or blue porcelain a thing?
I always forget when I mine this stuff, that I can't turn it into anything other than blue furniture.
Why do beetles live at the circus?
Lol sorry, no punch-line for this one! I just found a couple of these lil' buddies pokin' around in the slade while taking a stroll in adventure mode. I backpacked a couple of them back to the fortress to make for a neat little bug exhibit for the dwarves, and I couldn't help but wonder what they were doing down there.
Have you ever seen those sheep that live on the Isle of Man?
Image from Wikipedia:They're called Manx Loaghtan sheep.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1, cobaltite smithing wasn't widely available until after the 1400 cutoff date for tech in df, metallic cobalt wasn't isolated until 1735. Back in the day, it was used as a pigment (the source of the bright blue color) for glassware and paints, but not known to produce useful metal, and attempting to smelt it with traditional methods (what dwarves have available) produces toxic arsenic gas. We might see it as a pigment later on. There's been a lot of debate in the community about whether or not dwarves should be able to smelt the metal anyway, but it's not a priority in game development and can be easily modded in anyway. Cobalt metal would only really make another trade alloy or poor quality weapon material anyway
2, I think ground/soil vermin can just show up at any level, especially if you search tiles in adventure mode. Turkeys and other ground bug eaters can also dig them up anywhere. Vermim behavior is wierd and buggy like that.
Post by: AvolitionBrit on October 31, 2022, 11:22:47 am
1. Is there anything planned in the future to allow vampires to produce blood in order to transmit vampirism. Currently you can fill a goblet with vampire tainted blood and offer it to an NPC to drink but this method involves you having to wound and collect your own blood or another vampires.
2. Will title inheritance at some point get an overhall so each civ have different title inheritance rules. Currently i believe it looks for the offspring with the best social stats and failing that i believe the title goes randomly. So perhaps one dwarven civilization establishes absolute cognatic primogeniture whilst another decides on ultimogeniture. Additionally would this if implemented could change depending on the dwarf.
3. Will religions be unrestricted in adventure mode, as currently you have to be of that race of the civilization in order to choose one of their religons so if i was a bark scorpion man coming from a dwarven civilisation i cannot choose to worship any gods even of the civilization i am apart of. To further this, apart from assuming identity will you consider enabling the ability in adventure mode to find faith or pray to a god. Could make for an interesting story if an adventurer found faith on their journey or perhaps begun to worship a new god.
Post by: Urist McSadist on October 31, 2022, 12:39:43 pm
1.Will civilizations get evolving ethics?
2.I think it's pretty silly how you can slaughter all your visitors and they still keep coming. Will we get a visitor reputation system in the near future?
3.Will we get the option to surrender to the invading force and become part of their civilization?
4.Will there ever be a personality trait that makes people enjoy seeing death and violence?
5.Right now your military will charge mindlessly into the enemy and jump into moats. Will they get a better ai before magic?
6.Will we ever get sports in our fortresses?
Post by: Mr Crabman on October 31, 2022, 04:36:29 pm
Or I guess to get to the root of what I really want to know: body tokens accept the value `STP` which just takes the normal name and adds an `s` on the end; STP standing for "standard plural" I believe:
Code: [Select]
[OBJECT:BODY]
[BODY:NOSE]
[BP:NOSE:nose:STP]But I want to know if it also accepts the value `NP`, which stands for "no plural", and is used in other places in the raws. Would it accept NP as intended (making the plural of "nose" also just be "nose"), or would it literally just use the letters "NP" for the plural version of the name?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 31, 2022, 06:18:01 pm
When does the game shows the plural version of body parts? Like "right upper arms" instead of "right upper arm"? Everywhere I've checked, it just seems to either list each individual part one by one, or show the non-plural version and a number beside it.
Or I guess to get to the root of what I really want to know: body tokens accept the value `STP` which just takes the normal name and adds an `s` on the end; STP standing for "standard plural" I believe:Code: [Select][OBJECT:BODY]
[BODY:NOSE]
[BP:NOSE:nose:STP]
But I want to know if it also accepts the value `NP`, which stands for "no plural", and is used in other places in the raws. Would it accept NP as intended (making the plural of "nose" also just be "nose"), or would it literally just use the letters "NP" for the plural version of the name?
Hmmm… pluralis tantum et singularis tantum…
Post by: dikbutdagrate on October 31, 2022, 08:38:42 pm
Why is (kobold ore) cobaltite represented as a blue ore in game? And why can't we use it for anything?
Just curious about this. Were there plans at one point to make blue glass or blue porcelain a thing?
I always forget when I mine this stuff, that I can't turn it into anything other than blue furniture.
Why do beetles live at the circus?
Lol sorry, no punch-line for this one! I just found a couple of these lil' buddies pokin' around in the slade while taking a stroll in adventure mode. I backpacked a couple of them back to the fortress to make for a neat little bug exhibit for the dwarves, and I couldn't help but wonder what they were doing down there.
Have you ever seen those sheep that live on the Isle of Man?
Image from Wikipedia:They're called Manx Loaghtan sheep.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1, cobaltite smithing wasn't widely available until after the 1400 cutoff date for tech in df, metallic cobalt wasn't isolated until 1735. Back in the day, it was used as a pigment (the source of the bright blue color) for glassware and paints, but not known to produce useful metal, and attempting to smelt it with traditional methods (what dwarves have available) produces toxic arsenic gas. We might see it as a pigment later on. There's been a lot of debate in the community about whether or not dwarves should be able to smelt the metal anyway, but it's not a priority in game development and can be easily modded in anyway. Cobalt metal would only really make another trade alloy or poor quality weapon material anyway
Powered mine-carts aside, right, historically it wasn't refined as a metal until just after the tech cut-off point. I'm kind of just wondering where was the tug-of-war between gameplay and accurate modeling. It doesn't make sense that cobaltite can be made into LBLUE furniture, as cobaltite ore does not appear in nature as being the color blue, rather it appears as reddish silver white, violet steel gray to black. Did T-dog just want us to have something relatively common to make LBLUE stuff with? This strikes me as odd, as usually there tends to be some complicated production chain to produce anything that isn't rock colored. Just giving us COLOR with no strings attached seems a little antithetical to DF norms.
And with an ore thats actually named after kobolds, it feels like there is some kind of opportunity waiting there. Not really certain what that opportunity looks like, but I imagine it'd have something to do with the kobolds, after whom the ore is indeed named.
Post by: Pillbo on October 31, 2022, 10:41:18 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 31, 2022, 11:32:44 pm
Post by: Doorkeeper on November 01, 2022, 12:38:48 am
According to Wiktionary, bloat has a derogatory, dated meaning of "a worthless, dissipated fellow". Is this what you're referring to, or is there a new bad slang?No. I was referring to the usage of "bloat" as a shorthand for code bloat or software bloat in a computer context.Despite feature creep usually having a bad connotation (in programming sense), it is what made DF the game it is now[…]Is that really a good thing? I can't think of any way that bloat could possibly make a program better, and the examples i can think of that DF has (the first things that come to mind are the many redundant types of wood, stone, gems, etc. which don't have any significant differences between them) don't seem like exceptions.
Thought you were talking about a pejorative or slur. Sorry for the mistake.
I was referring to the evolution/expansion of the game from its initial version, but maybe it was wrong of me to call this feature creep or bloat which, now I'm understanding, are generally negative by definition. Maybe the "bloat" label is sarcasm, irony etc. and played for laughs.
Regarding the redundant variety of materials, I always saw this as part of the game's charm and played into the micromanagement aspect DF is known for. I can definitely see why some call it bloat, but at the same time it hasn't negatively impacted the game for me, so... not bloat, for me. But I know it's a point of contention amongst players.
Post by: Lord_lemonpie on November 01, 2022, 12:02:13 pm
Will succession forts/trading savegames be possible in the initial steam release, or will it take some time for that to be possible?
Post by: Mr Crabman on November 01, 2022, 01:31:11 pm
2. Where are the classic tracks going now, since apparently there is new menu music, and legends mode also has custom music for it?
3. It's been asked before, but... is there any news on what's happening with the intro movie?
Will succession forts/trading savegames be possible in the initial steam release, or will it take some time for that to be possible?
They'd definitely still be possible I think, you'll just also need to share any mods used, along along with the save file (because they are separate now).
Post by: Bumber on November 01, 2022, 02:02:42 pm
https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3807
Cavern plants can grow on top of each other.
Post by: Toady One on November 01, 2022, 06:42:52 pm
Quote from: TheFlame52
Why don't hair, nails, and a couple of other tissues that grow back in real life have healing rates? They aren't exactly vital organs, but it sucks losing a dwarf to an infected beard wound that won't heal.
Yeah, it's strange, we wanted to grow them out instead of having the wounds heal.
Quote from: Button
How is the new version's multithreading/multiple CPU core use looking?
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8414980#msg8414980
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8415148#msg8415148
*Obsidian Short Sword*: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8415501#msg8415501
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8415539#msg8415539
*Obsidian Short Sword*: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8415562#msg8415562
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8415640#msg8415640
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8416031#msg8416031
This hasn't changed. People are right that it has always slowly been easier to add it, at least to certain kinds of routines. Maybe it will be time someday. The Steam version does use the SDL version's display thread.
Quote from: Fikilili
Real-Life mythologies, although sometimes chaotic and having varying degrees of consistency depending on the period, have some form of inner-logic. There is a reason for this or that god to be there, or this or that agent of the gods to exist. DF's current handling of the gods is quite ubiquitous at times. Do you plan on actually retooling or entirely reworking the way Myths work so to generate some that are more accurate to the way real mythologies are formed/written?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8415920#msg8415920
Yeah, as voliol says, that's a main focus of the work on the prototype, and the 'myth' part of the Myth/Magic release. It should be quite a bit better than it is now.
Quote from: BlackAion
Would it be possible in the Myth and Magic expansion to create sky worlds? Like worlds where the continents are floating and the oceans are an endless sea of clouds? Or worlds where you live on the back of a turtle or worlds where it is literally one big giant tree?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8416730#msg8416730
PatrikLundell is correct here - the map rewrite will enable these kind of things, and floating continents, as well as smaller floating castles and islands and such, are part of the reason we're doing it. Same goes for turtles and trees, which I think we've mentioned specifically in terms of mining into the turtle ha ha. But it's another question which'll make the first pass content-wise. We're too far out to be able to address those specifics.
Quote from: Shepanator
Are there plans to add more gameplay features for forts with 'Mountainhome' status, e.g. ability to direct the overall civilisation, declare wars, expand the civ, etc? Or is there any other 'end-game' type content you have been thinking about?
*Obsidian Short Sword*: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8416865#msg8416865
KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8417522#msg8417522
Upcoming army part should see a bit of this! Having an expanding barony/kingdom mode comes up in various places in the notes. Once you have the monarch, ideally you should be able to set diplomatic/settlement policy for the civ, to the extent that it's official.
Quote from: Bloodwarrior
I wonder will the myth and magic update have stuff like people who became saints or siddha and will you be able to become one
There are some references to higher states and such in the existing myth prototype, with a few throwaway lines about how to attain them and such, and combined with the prophet/etc. stuff that already exists, I think we'll see some movement here.
Quote from: Tachytaenius
Was diagonal gaps removing water pressure an intentional feature, and if not, do you feel like you can't change it now?
I can't think of a specific reason. It's likely faster to only use four directions, but I don't think that was a concern. And it's weird, since water can flow diagonally.
Quote from: BlackAion
Will the appearance description of any dwarf/human/elf/etc. receive an overhaul as well in preparation for the myth and magic update? The thoughts and preferences of any individual goes in-depth into any particular dwarfs personality but doesnt really describes their build or physique other than saying they are weak or strong. As there been any thoughts in simplifying the personality lore and adding more depth to physique descriptions?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8418153#msg8418153
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8418159#msg8418159
MaxTheFox: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8418170#msg8418170
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8418296#msg8418296
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8419059#msg8419059
I don't anticipate changes here. I'm not simplying the personalities, and the examples given for physical changes don't sound like a priority for storytelling. Things like tattoos and such would probably go in before differences in single muscles.
Quote from: voliol
Will the new raw formatting be released before the game is, so modders get a chance to prepare their mods?
Here's the default building format. An info.txt file with the following.
Code: [Select]
[ID:vanilla_buildings]
[NUMERIC_VERSION:5001]
[DISPLAYED_VERSION:50.01]
[EARLIEST_COMPATIBLE_NUMERIC_VERSION:5001]
[EARLIEST_COMPATIBLE_DISPLAYED_VERSION:50.01]
[AUTHOR:Bay 12 Games]
[NAME:Vanilla Buildings]
[DESCRIPTION:These are the default Dwarf Fortress buildings.]
Then an objects folder that has building_custom.txt as before. Generally, you just have an info file, and an objects file with the same stuff as you always used.
Zip that up and you are good to go. Make sure info.txt is at the base level. "vanilla_" as the leading part of the ID is reserved for vanilla.
There are a few extra tags you can use in info.txt to require and forbid other mod IDs (or the vanilla ones.) These are:
Code: [Select]
[REQUIRES_ID:<id>]
[REQUIRES_ID_BEFORE_ME:<id>]
[REQUIRES_ID_AFTER_ME:<id>]
[CONFLICTS_WITH_ID:<id>]
When I get the Steam Workshop stuff done, there'll be one or more additional optional tags having to do with identification/etc. but I don't know what they'll be yet. We haven't done anything with saving/distributing load orders for mod packs or installation/other options, etc etc, but we'll see what's needed as we go.
Graphics of course have a new format. Those live inside objects in the graphics folder, in graphics_*.txt files, and tile page files, with images in a subfolder. I can't release the images there, and I wouldn't say the txts are finalized there either, but I can put something up later.
Quote from: LuuBluum
In a similar vein as to the recent (Oct. 22nd) devlog, is it possible to clean up some of the decoration jobs? Right now there's a twofold issue: inability to specify exactly what object to decorate, and inability to avoid "repeat" decorations. The former means you have to set up very specific stockpiles to decorate, say, a very specific statue, and the latter means you can only decorate one thing at a time— if you try to queue up decorating, say, several statues with gemstones, you'll instead just decorate the first one with all the gemstones.
The rest of that devlog made me incredibly excited for the release; thank you so much for your hard work!
The encrusting jobs are generalized now, rather than requiring specific types, but I haven't done anything else yet. Obviously more can be done, but there won't be time before the release.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
On a side note, I saw something about a “vermin catcher’s workshop”. What’s that about?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8421673#msg8421673
Yeah, clinodev has this one - kennel's weren't used for any large animal jobs, so they've now become an awkward giant 5x5 place where ratty things happen.
Quote from: Immortal-D
Are there any plans to revamp or add onto the bug tracker for Steam release? Or will Steam users also be directed to the catch-all Mantis archive?
We're working on this now. I'm not sure if we're going to end up migrating the database or to what, but that's the kind of stuff we're looking at.
Quote from: DeKaFu
Bit of an odd question, but I was hoping to add the crayon drawing I received to the wiki as an illustration on a creature page. Could you confirm whether this picture depicts a draltha or a drunian? (I requested a draltha but the colours and body shape threw me off, so now I'm second-guessing and don't want to put it on the wrong page.)
Ha ha ha, sorry, yeah, that looks like a drunian to me. Total failure on our part.
Quote from: Corthalas
I would like to know more about necromancer experiments: the huge amalgations mentioned in legends Mode, which seem to rampage like (semi)megabeasts. Is it possible to meet them in fortress mode or adventure mode? Would two of the same species be able to breed? I would like to know if they could even break away from their necromancer and join societies.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8422915#msg8422915
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8423084#msg8423084
Ha ha, the community knows more than me by now about what's up here. Have they ever been part of a necromancer attack on a fortress? I've seen lots of the smaller experiements of all kinds in testing. And the regular humanoid experiments can become playable, but I've never seen that for the amalgamated hulk ones.
Quote from: Pillbo
Creatures use the same color descriptions as wood and stone. Will creatures like dogs and cats also vary in color based on those colors, like furniture and dwarves will?
The furniture uses our new palette system (one 9 color wood palette and one 9 color stone/default palette for each in-game color), while dwarf hair and clothing and skin use broader groups since the artists wanted to have more control. I suspect when we get to dogs and cats, it might use the latter system, but I'm not sure! It'd be nice for sure to have coat patterns and colors accurately reflected, especially if we get anywhere with the existing-but-practically-unused animal breed structure.
Quote from: BlueManedHawk
On the old consolidated development page, one of the categories of things to do was called "bloats". Considering that this is a word that generally has derogatory connotations, why was it selected to describe this category?
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8423041#msg8423041
BlueManedHawk (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8423320#msg8423320
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8424058#msg8424058
Doorkeeper has the sense right here. I was certainly playing with the notion of things that aren't strictly necessary and which some people are irritated by, so it's intentionally derogatory, but we still like them, and they often end up having more purpose over time than might initially seem likely.
Quote from: LuuBluum
Similarly to the recent changes to the jeweler's workshop, are there plans to also adjust some of the other generic "do things with thing" tasks so that they can be made more functional? For instance, jobs at a farmer's workshop don't let you specify what to process, milling jobs don't let you specify what to mill, and cooking jobs don't let you specify what ingredients to use (you can broadly say what you want to allow to cook or not cook, but you can't, say, set up a cooking task specifically to cook away all that flour or sugar you keep producing).
Also, similar to the bin changes, have you also considered making a similar change to bags/barrels? Farms in particular are notorious for seed barrels (and to a lesser extent, seed bags) having the same effect as bins.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8423530#msg8423530
There's a lot that can be done of course. We haven't added additional job details, and it isn't possible now to do anything super interesting with the release looming, but we're going to continue doing friendly things as we go.
I don't recall now if we got barrels/bags for free when I did the bins. I can check, and it might be possible to do something there prior to release if it isn't already in.
Quote from: FlorpyDorp
When I first played DF, it was the bin bug that got me close to losing my mind. Especially with farm seeds. Didn’t end up encountering too many other bugs. The bin one took way too much googling back then to figure out. So grateful it’s been purged.
How does it feel to be resolving issues like that which you’ve had in the code for so long? Also, how are you prioritizing which bugs to fix/QoL stuff to add?
Does Kitfox have a stream of people new to the game getting fresh eyes on it to point out things that frustrate? Or is it mostly experienced dorfs giving suggestions, or do you feel you’ve got a good sense of what has needed fixing for awhile and just haven’t had time to do it until now?
Seems like a big priority for this release is making sure the thousands (millions?) of people who are first exposed don’t lose their minds with bugs/complexity right off the bat. Are you nervous about that period/response?
There's a lot of different kinds of work to do all at once, so it's not easy to prioritize. We have people of various experience levels playing - sometimes a bug is fixed because it bothers the old people and they remind me, sometimes a new person trips over it and it has to go, and sometimes it's just something from the tracker. It's certainly helped to have an ongoing discussion with feedback, as has happened on and off over the years.
Things are surely a little nervewracking now, but it feels kind of like default nerves? Like even if everything were perfect, I feel like I'd probably have about this level of nerves. People aren't complaining terribly and I've fixed a good portion of the issues raised, and all of the really serious ones that have come up, pretty much. But there's a lot left to do. I kind of crossed over a hill though when we got zooming back in. Once you could zoom the play area again, with all the other stuff together, it started to feel releasable and pretty user friendly.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Why is (kobold ore) cobaltite represented as a blue ore in game? And why can't we use it for anything?
Just curious about this. Were there plans at one point to make blue glass or blue porcelain a thing?
I always forget when I mine this stuff, that I can't turn it into anything other than blue furniture.
Why do beetles live at the circus?
Lol sorry, no punch-line for this one! I just found a couple of these lil' buddies pokin' around in the slade while taking a stroll in adventure mode. I backpacked a couple of them back to the fortress to make for a neat little bug exhibit for the dwarves, and I couldn't help but wonder what they were doing down there.
Have you ever seen those sheep that live on the Isle of Man?
They're called Manx Loaghtan sheep.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8423797#msg8423797
dikbutdagrate (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8424012#msg8424012
I saw one blueish picture and decided to go for it. This happened with more than one mineral, since it's dull when everything is gray.
Yeah, the restrictions aren't strong on vermin, especially when the fowl are digging them up.
I know San Francisco zoo had some amazing four horned critters, possibly even six horned? But I don't remember if I saw that specific one.
Quote from: AvolitionBrit
1. Is there anything planned in the future to allow vampires to produce blood in order to transmit vampirism. Currently you can fill a goblet with vampire tainted blood and offer it to an NPC to drink but this method involves you having to wound and collect your own blood or another vampires.
2. Will title inheritance at some point get an overhall so each civ have different title inheritance rules. Currently i believe it looks for the offspring with the best social stats and failing that i believe the title goes randomly. So perhaps one dwarven civilization establishes absolute cognatic primogeniture whilst another decides on ultimogeniture. Additionally would this if implemented could change depending on the dwarf.
3. Will religions be unrestricted in adventure mode, as currently you have to be of that race of the civilization in order to choose one of their religons so if i was a bark scorpion man coming from a dwarven civilisation i cannot choose to worship any gods even of the civilization i am apart of. To further this, apart from assuming identity will you consider enabling the ability in adventure mode to find faith or pray to a god. Could make for an interesting story if an adventurer found faith on their journey or perhaps begun to worship a new god.
1. Nothing specific planned, but offering the vampire curse is part of the villains stuff, and it might need support.
2. That kind of things is on the table for the entity rewrite after the magic stuff.
3. Hmm, that's odd. People can cross between race-gods in world gen as far as I remember. But yeah, if there's no mechanism for it in adv mode specifically, there should be.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Will civilizations get evolving ethics?
2.I think it's pretty silly how you can slaughter all your visitors and they still keep coming. Will we get a visitor reputation system in the near future?
3.Will we get the option to surrender to the invading force and become part of their civilization?
4.Will there ever be a personality trait that makes people enjoy seeing death and violence?
5.Right now your military will charge mindlessly into the enemy and jump into moats. Will they get a better ai before magic?
6.Will we ever get sports in our fortresses?
1. I think so, yeah, with the law stuff in the entity rewrite. Books can already change values a bit.
2. Near future? I wouldn't count on it! But it's silly if they don't have a system similar to the migrants, I agree.
3. This is on the table for the army/villains stuff - we had both internal coups and goblin conquest in mind. There was a note about a tribute wagon coming and having to fill it at your own depot.
4. I dunno. There's already cruelty and excitement seeking - sometimes it just needs to interpret facets together rather than adding more facets. But I agree it would be interesting overall to explore more situations/overlaps/etc.
5. It's possible. I'm not sure to what extent that's jumping into moats vs. desperately dodging when they might have died - the latter is going to stay, though they should probably think harder if the fall is extra lethal.
6. We have competitions in world gen, so it's technically a thing. It's hard because it's like writing a whole new game if you want to do much with it, moreso than the dancing etc.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
When does the game shows the plural version of body parts? Like "right upper arms" instead of "right upper arm"? Everywhere I've checked, it just seems to either list each individual part one by one, or show the non-plural version and a number beside it.
Or I guess to get to the root of what I really want to know: body tokens accept the value `STP` which just takes the normal name and adds an `s` on the end; STP standing for "standard plural" I believe:
[OBJECT:BODY]
[BODY:NOSE]
[BP:NOSE:nose:STP]
But I want to know if it also accepts the value `NP`, which stands for "no plural", and is used in other places in the raws. Would it accept NP as intended (making the plural of "nose" also just be "nose"), or would it literally just use the letters "NP" for the plural version of the name?
Right now it looks like it uses the plurals only for body parts with a number greater than 1, like teeth.
So STP is used in 11 places, and NP is only used in 1 place. That's not very kind! Next version fixes this.
Quote
Quote from: PillboWhat were you for Halloween? (Or what would you like to be if you had taken the time to put together a costume?)Quote from: A_Curious_CatHave the two of you ever considered dressing up as a toad and a sloth for Halloween?
Nothing this year! Not even Jojo, even though she has many outfits. Things have been hectic and weird. It would be fun for Zach to dress up as a giant guinea pig though (he is ThreeToe for his pet guinea pig - they have four in the front and three in the back.)
Quote from: Lord_lemonpie
Will succession forts/trading savegames be possible in the initial steam release, or will it take some time for that to be possible?
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8424214#msg8424214
Yeah, even though we added the new timelines and etc., in the file structure itself there's basically no change here. In Steam, you can open your local files and add/remove stuff from the save folder like before.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
1. Assuming it's finalized now, how many music tracks are there now?
2. Where are the classic tracks going now, since apparently there is new menu music, and legends mode also has custom music for it?
3. It's been asked before, but... is there any news on what's happening with the intro movie?
1. 15 tracks (mostly ~4 minutes, a 2, several 5+, one is nearly 7 minutes), and 16 interludes that clock more like 1 minute each but one is almost 3.
2. The 7 minute track is a reimagining of the title+main track by Simon and Dabu.
3. Living on in the old versions for now!
Post by: Ghills on November 01, 2022, 09:39:35 pm
What is the state of keyboard control in DF and what plans are there for it going forward?
Post by: Eric Blank on November 01, 2022, 09:45:57 pm
Thank you for the answers Toady!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 01, 2022, 11:58:33 pm
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11403
(It's specifically an animal-person thing. Other races pick up the religion of the civ they live in at some point and become selectable in Adventurer).
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on November 02, 2022, 12:08:40 am
Post by: DG on November 02, 2022, 02:44:16 am
So I'm dipping back into DF, and haven't been able to parse a clear answer to this out of the previous FotF replies:
What is the state of keyboard control in DF and what plans are there for it going forward?
Here's the latest from Toady. You can read a little bit before this quote in this thread for some context (if you've already read this, sorry haha!).
Keyboard stuff: There was some confusion over in the linked suggestions thread above and elsewhere about hotkeys etc., and generally I should clarify the different pieces of keyboard support and where we are at:
For hotkeys, I'll have to move some of them, since I can't assume we have a numberpad and wasd has to camp out over on the left side of the keyboard forever, but hotkeys for opening and using menus seems pretty easy to support. We do have to show them to the player somehow. Tooltips are one typical way, and there could be some layer that draws them under buttons as well (I guess some games have done, like, holding 'alt' for this kind of thing.)
For designations, I think the wasd+mouse combination can handle some things that people aren't giving it credit for (long tunnels etc.), and camera keys also work for doing up/down staircases. But we've listened to the feedback here, and a cursor mode is easy to support, since most of the code is sitting around for it and we already have cursor graphics. We just have to make sure new people don't get stuck in there.
For menu navigation, missing the numberpad and our old (sometimes inconsistent and annoying) methods of scrolling put us in a bind in some cases. Focus and button use etc. probably can't be the same between the various menus, because they are quite different from each other. Though I think, as with the Classic display and adventure mode, the main issue here is time. I see the pathway through for Classic/adventure stuff though, so it's easy to commit to doing those in as timely a fashion as possible after launch if that's the way we go. With a few of the menus, I'm not sure how much work it'd take.
We read through all of the comments and take them seriously, even the negative ones - there's no need to be rude or assume the worst. We're going to try to address issues and we think things are going to turn out well, but everything just takes time.
Don't expect it immediately and don't expect it to be as comprehensive as it was. Those of us who cared dropped the ball because Toady didn't think anyone did.
Post by: voliol on November 02, 2022, 08:27:37 am
The new formatting looks very promising. Are the vanilla raws split into multiple zipped folders going forwards, or was the "vanilla_buildings" example just an example?
Post by: Criperum on November 03, 2022, 05:05:22 am
Post by: demonbunny3po on November 03, 2022, 10:48:08 am
One YouTuber I think would like the game and I believe has expressed interest in the game in the past (but unwilling to play for the channel due to the previous lack of graphics) is Pravus (https://youtube.com/c/PravusGaming). He tends to play strategy games and recently started up a new series of Oxygen Not Included. He has done several series where he would play games from sponsored content or even just games Devs provided to him for free. I think he and his fans would like DF a great deal. Unfortunately, most of my other suggestions are people that I know already plan on purchasing the Steam version on release and are big fans of the game as it currently sits or are massive names who tend to not play these sorts of games.
Edit: Blind and Quill 18 are the two other YouTube gamers I would suggest, but they are already deep in the game already. I would like to suggest a VTuber, but do not know any that would fit well.
Post by: scriver on November 03, 2022, 11:55:25 am
Post by: clinodev on November 03, 2022, 01:04:06 pm
Now that we have a release date, I am curious if any steamers/Let’s Players are being given early copies of the game to try out so they can release videos on the day of release and really get the initial ball rolling even harder.
Without getting into the topic of sending keys to people who are historically unwilling to stream DF, handling media and so on is definitely the sort of thing Tarn's left to the publisher Kitfox Games so he can keep his focus on the development.
They can be contacted at info@kitfoxgames.com .
Post by: TheLifeOfRyanB on November 03, 2022, 02:14:47 pm
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on November 03, 2022, 05:01:40 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 04, 2022, 01:00:01 am
I know you've said there won't be save game backward compatibility in the Steam release from previous versions, but will the various world gen seeds still produce the same worlds, terrain, civs, etc?That's unlikely.
Even small adjustments to things in the game makes seeds non compatible, even if the saves themselves remain backwards compatible.
It's also possible some seeds generate the same result as before while others don't, if something in one part of world gen has been changed, but not others.
Post by: TheLifeOfRyanB on November 04, 2022, 02:00:35 am
Post by: Paaaad on November 04, 2022, 06:13:18 am
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on November 04, 2022, 12:16:09 pm
Post by: BreadnRoses on November 07, 2022, 05:00:46 am
Post by: voliol on November 07, 2022, 07:00:12 am
How moddable will DF be with workshop support? will people be able to change core features of the game (different farming mechanics, different combat mechanics, new systems, etc) or will it be limited to using modules already in the engine?
From what we've heard, it will be easier for mods to work together, but the extent of what's moddable hasn't changed.
Post by: demonbunny3po on November 07, 2022, 05:35:29 pm
In a Watsonian sense, how do you think a DF world gets its first anvil, given how you, in gameplay, need a forge to make an anvil... And you need an anvil to build a forge.That is simple. A dwarf makes the First Artifact Anvil out of some other material. From there, the forging of the first regular anvil can be accomplished and sent out into the world.
Post by: Paaaad on November 07, 2022, 09:13:19 pm
Except to make an artifact anvil, you need a metalworking mood... Which can only be carried out at a forge, so you're back where you started.In a Watsonian sense, how do you think a DF world gets its first anvil, given how you, in gameplay, need a forge to make an anvil... And you need an anvil to build a forge.That is simple. A dwarf makes the First Artifact Anvil out of some other material. From there, the forging of the first regular anvil can be accomplished and sent out into the world.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 07, 2022, 09:18:04 pm
Post by: Schmaven on November 07, 2022, 09:29:38 pm
Except to make an artifact anvil, you need a metalworking mood... Which can only be carried out at a forge, so you're back where you started.In a Watsonian sense, how do you think a DF world gets its first anvil, given how you, in gameplay, need a forge to make an anvil... And you need an anvil to build a forge.That is simple. A dwarf makes the First Artifact Anvil out of some other material. From there, the forging of the first regular anvil can be accomplished and sent out into the world.
I've had a dwarf craft a bed out of gem due to a preference for beds, so maybe a preference for anvils could result in the world's first anvil, created at another workshop normally not able to produce anvils?
Post by: Lemunde on November 09, 2022, 02:31:56 am
In a Watsonian sense, how do you think a DF world gets its first anvil, given how you, in gameplay, need a forge to make an anvil... And you need an anvil to build a forge.
Seriously though, anvils should probably made at a smelter instead of a forge. You don't "forge" anvils. You pour metal into a mold and you get an anvil, same as any metal bar. There's probably a few other objects you should be able to do this with as well, like certain types of furniture. Or maybe there needs to be a new workshop for making metal objects that use molds instead of being beaten into shape.
Post by: Eric Blank on November 09, 2022, 05:04:55 am
It makes sense for DF technology to follow the same pattern of development through materials available as technology and understanding progress. Neolithic dwarves would bang hot copper on rocks with stone tools, make a copper hammer to further work tools, develop a mould from clay or stone to pour molten copper to forge an anvil, and then do the same for bronze, then iron and finally steel. This has just never translated to gameplay, probably because we've always had the opportunity to trade for them off the caravan if we didn't bring one on embark. But being able to use a stone boulder of hard enough material (like granite, gabbro, quartzite...), or make a clay mould for pouring a metal cast anvil, would make sense.
Currently the game doesn't start, at year zero, with Neolithic civilizations. They start out fully formed at year 1 with a settlement, and individual items like anvils probably aren't tracked at that point. They just have them.
Post by: voliol on November 10, 2022, 04:36:48 am
Also, if it hasn't been disclosed by this point (the start of December), will DF Classic/ASCII mode be ready at the Premium launch?
Post by: Urist McSadist on November 11, 2022, 05:14:24 am
1.Will non grazing animals require food before magic?
2.Right now adventure mode is basically unplayable in big cities. Will we get the option to add a population cap to sites?
3.Will gods have personalities after magic?
4.What can we expect the villains to do in our forts once the Villain Update is done?
Post by: Mr Crabman on November 12, 2022, 01:53:48 pm
EDIT: nevermind, I checked the devlog like I should have in the first place and saw it has been.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on November 13, 2022, 12:28:29 am
Post by: Mr Crabman on November 15, 2022, 10:54:04 am
2. Will it be possible for off-site/worldgen combat calculations to be made more accurate at some point? Outside of the "literally viewing the battle with a second camera" thing planned for after the map rewrite, that is.
According to what I've heard from others, basically nothing factors into the outcome but combat skills, size, and the leaders tactical skills (basically none of their special abilities or comparative body material durability matters); and battles are all a sequence of 1v1s, so sheer numbers can't "overwhelm" an opponent, at best being extra dice rolls for one individual to get a lucky strike in.
3. Are animated worldmap tiles in the plans for the post-release graphics enhancements? Stuff like moving water/rivers, those "sparkles" in good aligned forests actually sparkling, "heat haze" for hot biomes, etc.
Post by: Urist McWiddershins on November 16, 2022, 09:34:07 am
2.
*Since the game already has wind values based on latitude, it looks as though this was already an intended feature, but never fully implemented? I'm not sure if you intend to go the full nine yards and include axial tilt and such.
*edits for clarity
3. A recent combat log indicated that: "A forgotten beast bit off Urist McDwarfbaby's head! The part went flying in an arc!"
Infant mortality being what it is in DF, will there be artwork for dead dwarven infants / infant body parts? Or will changes have to be made now that the game is being published and distributed to a wider audience than before?
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 17, 2022, 03:36:21 am
:
2. Climate bands would be very nice to have, rather than the random distribution of deserts and jungles, even if the implementation was "quick and dirty" so to speak. Any plans to include that? And trade winds? Oh I can see how this would affect boats and trade... hmmmmm....
:
The game does have climate zones based on latitude as long as the world has at least one pole. That's one parameter among others that decide what biome a world tile has. Thus, "normal" worlds have arctic biomes near the poles, tropical ones around the equator, and temperate ones in between. There's also fiddly logic that can create a special biome for the sub tropical region on large worlds. There's a temperature gradient adjustment reaching from the poles to the tropics, and there are seasonal temperature variations that, somewhat unexpectedly, are zero at the poles and the equator, and then rises to a maximum at the mid points between the equator and the poles.
The world generation does play with rain shadows behind mountain ranges, and there are winds based on latitude (leading to wind mills not providing any power at all at certain latitudes and half power at others.
Of course, the map rewrite will affect everything, but my guess is that it will mostly be aimed at enabling new functionality rather than implementing various tangents of its use. However, it's also intended to support various new world variations that ought to include physically plausible ones with e.g. multiple suns and moons, as well as fantasy ones with flying islands, the inside of world sized beasts, etc. I'd expect exploration of new exiting algorithms for world biome generation to be geared towards the incorporation of sphere influence rather than cosmological influences in the first pass to keep things somewhat manageable, but you never know where inspiration and side projects may pull things during the process.
Post by: Urist McWiddershins on November 17, 2022, 12:56:33 pm
As the CDDA guy, I'm sure that you can understand the value of just a little generalization for 'future proofing' ;) (*cough* Z-Levels *cough*)
Post by: Buttery_Mess on November 17, 2022, 06:26:42 pm
Can you limit the fort's population size from inside the game now, rather than having to do it through the init files?
For that matter, have most of the modifiable values which affect gameplay which were located in the init and d_init files been put into the main game?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on November 17, 2022, 10:45:05 pm
What sort of FPS does the new version run at? Have there been optimisations that make it run faster?
Can you limit the fort's population size from inside the game now, rather than having to do it through the init files?
For that matter, have most of the modifiable values which affect gameplay which were located in the init and d_init files been put into the main game?
On a side note, have you seen this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180561.0)? If so, what do you think of Putnam’s discovery?
Edit: edited question.
Post by: PatrikLundell on November 18, 2022, 02:56:36 am
I've edited my initial question for clarity. And I think I see your reasoning, though I am unsure if I agree with it, in regards to what is 'tangential.' But that's ultimately a matter of what is planned. If boats and trade weren't in the pipeline, I think I would agree more that is superfluous.
As the CDDA guy, I'm sure that you can understand the value of just a little generalization for 'future proofing' ;) (*cough* Z-Levels *cough*)
The map rewrite is likely to be a huge project in itself, which is then bundled up with Myth & Magic's first iteration. Therefore, adding additional time on the implementation of functionality that's not directly required by that first Myth & Magic iteration is not a stellar use of the time (or, rather, additional time added to get the release out). Things needed for trade and moving terrain need to be implemented at that time, but it's not required to actually be implemented as part of the map rewrite. The foundation is required, but not the implementation itself.
In addition to that, I'm not sure how hard climate generation is tied to the map itself. The map rewrite needs to allow for the creation and modification of (geo)biomes, but that may not mean the logic for implementing such generation and modification has to be completely fleshed out initially. For example, the initial implementation may "only" support world generation of world similar to the current DF world, with additional sphere support, but the underlying model ought to support the generation of worlds with completely different geo biomes and "ordinary" biomes using both alternative world generation models and sliding scale models which could be produced at a later date (when these are introduced).
Post by: Urist McWiddershins on November 18, 2022, 12:45:43 pm
Quote
The foundation is required, but not the implementation itself.
Both the variables and functions needed are already implemented. It simply is only enabled for temperature at the moment.
I want to explain how trivial I think that this problem is, so I'm going to make a separate thread. Stay tuned.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 20, 2022, 07:54:08 pm
1) Presumably there's no hard-coded restrictions on adding these ourselves in our mods (for those of us who play in worlds where rat people are far more important than elves)? Or will we run into issues with elephant-man helmets?
2) Is this something you consider as needed for releasing Adventurer (since surely no-one ever plays parties consisting entirely of dwarves, elves, humans and goblins)?
Apologies if it's all been answered before. Been in hibernation while this arc gets done.
Post by: voliol on November 21, 2022, 07:01:32 am
You mentioned in the interview the other day that the 200 or so animal people don't have the layers info in their graphics RAWS to show clothing, hairstyles and such visually. That's a lot of data, so seems reasonable.
A somewhat related question:
From my understanding, the creature variation templates will continue to only be for creatures in the upcoming release, instead of being generalized for all sorts of objects. I imagine this is some technical issue, but on which level?
And if it ends up being expanded/replaced by something more general, do you think it could work on graphics tokens as well? Admittedly a bit suggestion-y, but I think it could shorten the graphics files quite a lot using the argument functionality.
Post by: Mr Crabman on November 21, 2022, 08:11:34 am
2. Is there a way to disable/toggle certain raw files, within a single mod/package from the workshop? For example, after downloading a "More Creatures" mod from the workshop, having some ingame menu that lets you toggle say, amphibians off but keep the mod's birds. Or alternatively, some other solution that allows a single Workshop subscription/page to contain what is technically multiple mods (so that "granular" mods don't have to post a million entries to the workshop).
Post by: Eric Blank on November 21, 2022, 10:53:06 am
2. Is there a way to disable/toggle certain raw files, within a single mod/package from the workshop? For example, after downloading a "More Creatures" mod from the workshop, having some ingame menu that lets you toggle say, amphibians off but keep the mod's birds. Or alternatively, some other solution that allows a single Workshop subscription/page to contain what is technically multiple mods (so that "granular" mods don't have to post a million entries to the workshop).
I had the same concern. Several people specifically asked me to add support for removing certain features from the mod I'm curating, which I did by splitting it into multiple parts as well as the single all-in-one version. With the steam release, will this modularity be possible from a single download now, i.e. uploading multiple object folders in the same steam mod and disabling the ones you don't want?
Post by: LuuBluum on November 21, 2022, 05:42:52 pm
Post by: Randomizer on November 25, 2022, 07:36:57 pm
Post by: Randomizer on November 25, 2022, 07:45:58 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 25, 2022, 10:06:31 pm
How far off is the Improved Mechanics Update? (feasible trap mechanisms, springs, gears, ropes, pullies, piping, conveyer belts, maybe rock crushers, hydraulics?, Pneumatics?, etc.)Likely would be part of the "Moving Fortress Parts and Ships" arc (by the current release schedule, which could very easily change of course).
So, Steam release.
Bug fixes
Villains completion + Adventurer.
Improved Sieges.
Big Wait (map rewrite & Initial Mythgen). (Likely several updates).
"Starting Scenarios" (the society & politics rewrite) (again, likely several updates).
Moving Fortress Parts & Ships.
With the activation of the world economy during play and all that implies slotted someplace in there.
So...far. But I guess some improved mechanics might be necessary for the Improved Sieges update.
Post by: SamBucher on November 26, 2022, 12:44:27 pm
1. Are the prostheses only for limbs, or will there be ones for every organ?
2. How will prostheses fair in comparison to the original body part?
3. Will there be magical prosthetics that give the user magic powers?
4. Will it be possible to:
4,1. attach a prosthetic in addition to a being's natural body parts? Imagine a craftsdwarf having 4 arms, 2 natural and 2 artificial, increasing work speed.
4,2. replace a healthy body part with a prosthetic one?
4,3. mix and match parts (replace a dwarf's legs with prosthetic arms)?
5. How much of a dwarf's body can be replaced until he is considered an automaton?
6. Will automatons be able to take roles of nobility?
7. Will there be automaton models besides the standard humanoid worker?
8. What will be the upkeep costs of an automaton (I presume they won't need food and alcohol)?
9. Will you be able to have an automaton-exclusive fortress or play as an automaton in adventure mode?
10. Will it be possible for one to achieve immortality not via necromancy, but by replacing aging flesh with machinery/putting one's soul into an automaton body?
Thank you in advance!
Post by: Silverwing235 on November 26, 2022, 01:46:23 pm
When will the caravans become more selective in the items they are willing to buy as well as the prices they put on items. They would act as real traders other then garbage collectors. They give a list of what they will accept. They may be convinced to take other stuff if it is of high quality and rare however.
Excuse me, 'garbage collectors'? I think there may be a...very distorted perspective being had on those things, here, by virtue of the current year AD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rag-and-bone_man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rag-and-bone_man)
Post by: Mr Crabman on November 26, 2022, 01:48:43 pm
The Dwarf Fortress development page mentions "automatons and magical prostheses" as part of Myth&Magic. These features seems innocent on the surface level, but actually raise a lot of question (hopefully not too many to answer):
1. Are the prostheses only for limbs, or will there be ones for every organ?
2. How will prostheses fair in comparison to the original body part?
3. Will there be magical prosthetics that give the user magic powers?
4. Will it be possible to:
4,1. attach a prosthetic in addition to a being's natural body parts? Imagine a craftsdwarf having 4 arms, 2 natural and 2 artificial, increasing work speed.
4,2. replace a healthy body part with a prosthetic one?
4,3. mix and match parts (replace a dwarf's legs with prosthetic arms)?
5. How much of a dwarf's body can be replaced until he is considered an automaton?
6. Will automatons be able to take roles of nobility?
7. Will there be automaton models besides the standard humanoid worker?
8. What will be the upkeep costs of an automaton (I presume they won't need food and alcohol)?
9. Will you be able to have an automaton-exclusive fortress or play as an automaton in adventure mode?
10. Will it be possible for one to achieve immortality not via necromancy, but by replacing aging flesh with machinery/putting one's soul into an automaton body?[/color]
Thank you in advance!
Not Toady, but:
1. Probably; prostheses will have to be coded to be able to act as stand-ins for body parts and their functions (eg, GRASP), so why not the other functions as well?
2. Definitely would vary from world-to-world, and situation to situation. Some prostheses will be crude peg-legs and hook hands (pretty much all worlds will have this I imagine), others will be magical automail arms, others may be literally fully living organic replacements, or even be improvements over the original.
3. Definitely, in some worlds; prosthetics would be some sort of item/equipment/body part blend, and all of these are going to have potential to be magical.
4. I wouldn't be surprised if all of these were possible, given that lots of weird body transformation stuff is planned anyway.
5. May depend on the world. I'd guess it would be whenever their thought body part is replaced, and/or their soul is lost/replaced. What's the difference between a "flesh automaton" and a "normal person"? It's all fuzzy, just words.
6. Probably, depending on what "automaton" means, and may vary. Some may be mindless servants that can't act without orders from their creator, others may be freely willed beings. This answer goes for question 9 as well.
7. Absolutely; there's no way this game of all things will have hardcoded automaton models, especially in an update that aims to procedurally generate entire races. I guarantee that automatons will be treated in the code much like normal creatures are, but with relevant differences like different materials for their body parts, and different sustenance requirements etc (in many ways, a Bronze Colossus could be considered an "automaton" already, just uncontrollable and impossible to create).
8. Will vary from world to world without a doubt. Some will require absolutely nothing, some will require sacrifices of the best crops to the god of metal every full moon, others will be fueled by flesh & blood and will seek it out on their own accord, others will require the concentration/mana of their creator... And of course, some may need food.
10. Almost certainly, in some worlds. I expect there will be many of ways to achieve immortality, and many of them revolving around putting one's soul into something that doesn't age. Note that not all worlds may even have a such thing as souls at all (eg, the "zero magic" worlds).
Post by: SamBucher on November 26, 2022, 02:34:22 pm
The Dwarf Fortress development page mentions "automatons and magical prostheses" as part of Myth&Magic. These features seems innocent on the surface level, but actually raise a lot of question (hopefully not too many to answer):
1. Are the prostheses only for limbs, or will there be ones for every organ?
2. How will prostheses fair in comparison to the original body part?
3. Will there be magical prosthetics that give the user magic powers?
4. Will it be possible to:
4,1. attach a prosthetic in addition to a being's natural body parts? Imagine a craftsdwarf having 4 arms, 2 natural and 2 artificial, increasing work speed.
4,2. replace a healthy body part with a prosthetic one?
4,3. mix and match parts (replace a dwarf's legs with prosthetic arms)?
5. How much of a dwarf's body can be replaced until he is considered an automaton?
6. Will automatons be able to take roles of nobility?
7. Will there be automaton models besides the standard humanoid worker?
8. What will be the upkeep costs of an automaton (I presume they won't need food and alcohol)?
9. Will you be able to have an automaton-exclusive fortress or play as an automaton in adventure mode?
10. Will it be possible for one to achieve immortality not via necromancy, but by replacing aging flesh with machinery/putting one's soul into an automaton body?[/color]
Thank you in advance!
Not Toady, but:
1. Probably; prostheses will have to be coded to be able to act as stand-ins for body parts and their functions (eg, GRASP), so why not the other functions as well?
2. Definitely would vary from world-to-world, and situation to situation. Some prostheses will be crude peg-legs and hook hands (pretty much all worlds will have this I imagine), others will be magical automail arms, others may be literally fully living organic replacements, or even be improvements over the original.
3. Definitely, in some worlds; prosthetics would be some sort of item/equipment/body part blend, and all of these are going to have potential to be magical.
4. I wouldn't be surprised if all of these were possible, given that lots of weird body transformation stuff is planned anyway.
5. May depend on the world. I'd guess it would be whenever their thought body part is replaced, and/or their soul is lost/replaced. What's the difference between a "flesh automaton" and a "normal person"? It's all fuzzy, just words.
6. Probably, depending on what "automaton" means, and may vary. Some may be mindless servants that can't act without orders from their creator, others may be freely willed beings. This answer goes for question 9 as well.
7. Absolutely; there's no way this game of all things will have hardcoded automaton models, especially in an update that aims to procedurally generate entire races. I guarantee that automatons will be treated in the code much like normal creatures are, but with relevant differences like different materials for their body parts, and different sustenance requirements etc (in many ways, a Bronze Colossus could be considered an "automaton" already, just uncontrollable and impossible to create).
8. Will vary from world to world without a doubt. Some will require absolutely nothing, some will require sacrifices of the best crops to the god of metal every full moon, others will be fueled by flesh & blood and will seek it out on their own accord, others will require the concentration/mana of their creator... And of course, some may need food.
10. Almost certainly, in some worlds. I expect there will be many of ways to achieve immortality, and many of them revolving around putting one's soul into something that doesn't age. Note that not all worlds may even have a such thing as souls at all (eg, the "zero magic" worlds).
Thank you for your response. It was rather narrow minded of me to think of automatons as just regular robots. I didn't even consider them being made out of flesh or other non-metal, non-mechanical materials. Also, your response to question 7 made me think of dwarves constructing a bronze colossus to protect their fortress. The mental image of a pair of those guarding the main entrance, unmoving statues, until a threat arrives, is really cool.
Post by: voliol on November 27, 2022, 07:16:50 pm
1. Are the prostheses only for limbs, or will there be ones for every organ?
It should be mentioned most of the organs don't do anything in current Dwarf Fortress. It's just brains and lungs, I believe ... and hearts are full of major arteries so you'll bleed out if yours is crushed. So that's a needed change, if you want liver prostheses to mean anything. Granted, this giving them function doesn't have to be based in biology. It could as well be a metaphysical/magic-based function, say the guts containing the "dream" part of your soul, or letting some non-brain organ hold the mind so that head transplants are possible (think Ganesha).
Post by: Egan_BW on November 27, 2022, 07:30:24 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on November 27, 2022, 09:46:29 pm
Post by: Elf Lord on November 29, 2022, 07:20:38 pm
Post by: Paaaad on November 29, 2022, 08:40:00 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on November 29, 2022, 09:57:11 pm
Following up on a question I asked for the October FOTF reply, I assume the version number has been finalized by now? If so, what will it be?
This video (https://youtu.be/jYDOYfPkhCY) from KitFox Games shows a version number of v50.01 about 45 seconds in. So it’s at least that…
Post by: rickalbert on November 30, 2022, 02:17:26 am
- Will we be able to visually identify wild plants, or will we still need to mouse over/select them?
- Will we be able to see the specific weapons used in a trap?
- With the recent balance changes to farming, have you considered making greenhouses from glass roofs/walls?
- How do we identify the differences between animals and their savage giant cousins? Do they have different art, or are they larger than a single tile?
- Are there any Beasts/Titans that will take up more than one tile, or is that something you're not interested in doing?
- What time will the game actually release? Is it a "rolling release" where every timezone gets access at midnight (or some other time) or a global release where everyone gets it at 0000XXT?
Thanks for your time, and Preemptive Congratulations for the Extremely Successful Release!
Post by: Mr Crabman on November 30, 2022, 03:48:23 am
- How do we identify the differences between animals and their savage giant cousins? Do they have different art, or are they larger than a single tile?
- Are there any Beasts/Titans that will take up more than one tile, or is that something you're not interested in doing?
Giant animals have enlarged art that's generally larger than one tile (though they don't actually exist outside one tile mechanically, it's just for visual purposes). And forgotten beasts/titans presumably do take up multiple tiles (again, just visually) as well, because the megabeasts definitely do.
Creatures actually mechanically being more than one tile is planned for a future update (if I remember right, it would be in the "siege engines/moving fortress parts" update). It's not clear which ones would be multi-tile though, since Toady said doing that for everything larger than the 2x2x3 tile size would just be too many.
Post by: Randomizer on November 30, 2022, 10:37:46 am
Question 2: What will happen in the new version if you kill off the original dwarf caravan in the first year(drowning chamber)? Prolonged war? Will you ever get another dwarf caravan, perhaps from a different dwarf civilization?
Post by: voliol on November 30, 2022, 02:03:45 pm
- Will we be able to visually identify wild plants, or will we still need to mouse over/select them?
Quote from: Tarn & Zach + Kitfox
SOONISH
For the months following launch, we have more graphics we want to add. We'd like specific graphics for more plants (evergreens, real world plants, etc), for example, and we'd also love to put in images for baby animals instead of just scaling down the adult versions. Kittens and red panda cubs and giant eaglets!
It seems we won't get fully differentiated plants at launch, but in some update after.
Post by: Xen0n on November 30, 2022, 02:36:50 pm
- I’m very excited about the upcoming changes to the "difficulty" of trading & farming in the Steam release, as “balance / challenge” has always been a big interest of mine. Are there plans down the road to similarly tweak other systems with an eye for balance, e.g. changing how easy it is to feed a fortress via trees / fishing, or certain combat options like cage traps having outsized effectiveness?
- Similarly, with the eventual “army / siege” update down the line, are there any plans relating to the consistency / relative strength level of goblin sieges? I know it was only a “gamey” stopgap measure at the time, but one aspect I appreciated about the old goblin siege mechanics in the pre-0.4x days was reliably knowing a goblin siege would turn up in the first few years of new forts (if listed as a neighbor), and subsequent sieges would usually be roughly proportional to your fort's wealth / size, regardless of what other things may have been going on in the world.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on November 30, 2022, 06:11:35 pm
I was looking at some of the screenshots you had hosted of the new classic mode recently, when I noticed the color difference.
(https://i.imgur.com/No36GX2.png)
Post by: Pillbo on November 30, 2022, 07:21:55 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on November 30, 2022, 08:45:35 pm
The real question is why would a witch who wants to curse you let you pick a favorite? If anything they'd deliberately refuse to pick that one.
Post by: PatrikLundell on December 01, 2022, 03:26:32 am
So is ORANGE confirmed for being a new color in classic?The underlying system is the same for both Premium and Classic, which means that color restriction is lifted in both. Obviously, actually using the newly available colors requires an active effort, so I wouldn't expect color coding of glyph images to have been redone en masse, as someone would have to do that manually, and that's probably not a high priority task. Using newly available colors in the UI when said UI has to be redone anyway is a natural thing, though.
I was looking at some of the screenshots you had hosted of the new classic mode recently, when I noticed the color difference.
(https://i.imgur.com/No36GX2.png)
Glyph color reallocation would be a candidate task for offloading work to someone else, though, if task offloading becomes a reasonable option.
Post by: voliol on December 01, 2022, 05:37:34 am
So is ORANGE confirmed for being a new color in classic?
I was looking at some of the screenshots you had hosted of the new classic mode recently, when I noticed the color difference.
(https://i.imgur.com/No36GX2.png)
I believe it is the new bright red. Below are the colors I could find in the two screenshots (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/#2022-07-25). Exactly 16, with no other bright red in there (the children being the red-red indicate it's the "dark" red).
(https://i.imgur.com/F4wD2BN.png)
NinjEdit: here are the screenshots with the old default colors, given the above assumptions are correct:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 01, 2022, 03:26:01 pm
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629902895138996264/1047964765835755540/image.png)
Letting people define their own tag types sounds like... A recipe for problems.
2. Can mod descriptions be multiple lines? For instance, by putting newlines in the DESCRIPTION or STEAM_DESCRIPTION tags, or by using one tag per line? Same question goes for the changelog.
3. I see that files still have headers, like so (the first line here):
Code: [Select]
item_helm
[OBJECT:ITEM]This header is required to load the file (it determines the loading order of files and such), and must be unique. Does it still need to be unique between mods?
4. Can different mods have files with the same name? Like, can another mod use `item_helm.txt` in its own object file at the same time as vanilla is loaded (provided that the object IDs inside the file are unique of course), or will it cause some conflict in processing later down the line?
5. Do you know what the Steam metadata is? Apparently STEAM_METADATA sets this https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/api/ISteamUGC#SetItemMetadata
But I myself have no clue what that's even for.
Post by: Julius Clonkus on December 01, 2022, 04:53:50 pm
Now that we've got a listen for the soundtrack, I want to preface my question with reassurances that the ambient music tracks are absolutely amazing and I'll probably listen to them when I go to sleep later.
At the same time, The vocal tracks like Drink & Industry and a very clearly upgraded Koganusan have given me goosebumps on a wholly different level. Assuming there are no hidden surprises on the music front for The Release, what are the chances of other vocal tracks such as Tankard Basher and Danger Room, or even more all-new tracks finding their way into future updates?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 01, 2022, 09:51:05 pm
Boy, been a long time since I've really done anything on the forum. But with The Release nearly upon us and the soundtrack already open to our ears now.I imagine they'll be easy enough to slot into the soundtrack as a basic mod. But, yeah, more official Simon Swerwer tracks can never be a bad thing.
Now that we've got a listen for the soundtrack, I want to preface my question with reassurances that the ambient music tracks are absolutely amazing and I'll probably listen to them when I go to sleep later.
At the same time, The vocal tracks like Drink & Industry and a very clearly upgraded Koganusan have given me goosebumps on a wholly different level. Assuming there are no hidden surprises on the music front for The Release, what are the chances of other vocal tracks such as Tankard Basher and Danger Room, or even more all-new tracks finding their way into future updates?
Post by: Toady One on December 02, 2022, 01:56:53 am
Post by: clinodev on December 02, 2022, 02:11:32 am
Post by: Egan_BW on December 02, 2022, 02:17:07 am
Post by: voliol on December 02, 2022, 02:42:24 am
6. You said in the AMA that duplicated raws are still an issue (no automatic overwriting to resolve conflicts), but that "you could do a select and delete to remove old entries with an intervening mod if you like"
That phrasing intrigues me; does that mean simply that old mods (which now includes vanilla files) can be disabled/not loaded in the first place (by the user at world creation)?
Or are you implying that mods actually have a "delete previously defined versions of X object if it exists" command of sorts, like:Code: [Select][EDIT:CREATURE:DWARF]Or something akin to that, that lets later mods define their own "fresh" dwarf (or just delete dwarves altogether) while still loading all the other vanilla creatures? (and likewise for other object types like items, buildings, entities etc)
[REMOVE_OBJECT]
Putnam mentions a "CUT_CREATURE" in this Reddit comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/z9tuf8/steam_community_update_1_december_2022_dwarf/iyjz10d). It seems to be it. (I've gathered they've helped out Toady, why they know the new system)
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 02, 2022, 04:11:37 am
6. You said in the AMA that duplicated raws are still an issue (no automatic overwriting to resolve conflicts), but that "you could do a select and delete to remove old entries with an intervening mod if you like"
That phrasing intrigues me; does that mean simply that old mods (which now includes vanilla files) can be disabled/not loaded in the first place (by the user at world creation)?
Or are you implying that mods actually have a "delete previously defined versions of X object if it exists" command of sorts, like:Code: [Select][EDIT:CREATURE:DWARF]Or something akin to that, that lets later mods define their own "fresh" dwarf (or just delete dwarves altogether) while still loading all the other vanilla creatures? (and likewise for other object types like items, buildings, entities etc)
[REMOVE_OBJECT]
Putnam mentions a "CUT_CREATURE" in this Reddit comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/z9tuf8/steam_community_update_1_december_2022_dwarf/iyjz10d). It seems to be it. (I've gathered they've helped out Toady, why they know the new system)
Oh nicce! I was worried that this kind of thing had been too complicated to get done in time for the Steam release, because I didn't remember seeing it mentioned!
Well, question 6 is answered fully, so I'll remove it, and my initial question (in the AMA) about duplicate things is pretty much irrelevant then. Though applying CUT_CREATURE automatically when CREATURE is used seems like it would make sense, to wipe out duplicate raw errors once and for all.
I'm guessing the answer is yes, but is there a CUT_CREATURE and SELECT_CREATURE equivalent for all OBJECT types, including the graphics-defining stuff and creature variations?
And what happens if one uses a CUT_X tag (or SELECT_X) on an object that wasn't defined yet? For example, if CUT_CREATURE:DWARF, but the user disabled vanilla raws and has no other mod defining DWARF beforehand? Would `SELECT_CREATURE:undefined_creature` just silently not do anything or would it create the thing on the spot?
Post by: Toady One on December 02, 2022, 06:04:59 pm
Quote from: Ghills
What is the state of keyboard control in DF and what plans are there for it going forward?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8424321#msg8424321
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8424366#msg8424366
Yeah, we have hotkeys for the top level actions, and an optional cursor you can turn on for designations and buildings, and macros work with those things. Keyboard support for other menus will take time, but we'd like to get to all of them.
Quote from: voliol
Are the vanilla raws split into multiple zipped folders going forwards, or was the "vanilla_buildings" example just an example?
They are in multiple unzipped folders with their own info.txts, all within a "data/vanilla" folder. All/some of them can be removed from the load order when you create a world.
Quote from: Criperum
I personally think that 30$ is a good price for such awesome game but people in russian community ask about possible region prices.
Kitfox says they'll be following Steam's guidelines on this! I'm not sure if we have those numbers or if it's all set automatically.
Quote from: Paaaad
In a Watsonian sense, how do you think a DF world gets its first anvil, given how you, in gameplay, need a forge to make an anvil... And you need an anvil to build a forge.
demonbunny3po: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425773#msg8425773
Paaaad (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425860#msg8425860
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425863#msg8425863
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425865#msg8425865
Lemunde: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8426328#msg8426328
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8426344#msg8426344
Ha ha, I don't have anything to add to the discussion. We do have gods that made slabs somehow, so there are possibilities even without relying on stone anvils, molds, etc.
Quote from: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼
This may have been asked before, But how much test coverage does your code have?(2022)
I can't feasibly support anything like expansive unit tests, but I have some things like that scattered around in places that are accident prone.
Quote from: BreadnRoses
How moddable will DF be with workshop support? will people be able to change core features of the game (different farming mechanics, different combat mechanics, new systems, etc) or will it be limited to using modules already in the engine?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425551#msg8425551
Yeah, it's basically the same as before, with objects etc. Steam Workshop doesn't provide any extra capabilities on its own, and I haven't been able to create a giant API or anything.
Quote from: voliol
Will you include earnings from the Premium version in the monthly Bay 12 Reports? It's hard to speak for others, but I know I would appreciate the transparency.
Also, if it hasn't been disclosed by this point (the start of December), will DF Classic/ASCII mode be ready at the Premium launch?
I think there may still be Steam rules against certain data releases, so I'm not really sure. Tanya has been talking about potential sales numbers a bit on Twitter and such, so it seems like we may be able to release some data. Because of how the wheels turn at Steam internally, we won't have any precise earnings numbers until mid-February, but we should have rough sales numbers very quickly.
As you've probably seen, Classic is shortly after launch now - basically the next thing I'm working on, and there are just a few things to clean up. I can't predict what's going to happen with sudden issues and etc. after launch, since it'll be a whole new universe, but if things are settled quickly, it shouldn't take very long. The conversion is mostly done - there are just a few display issues (title screen, world maps, buildings don't print, sky looks weird, a few buttons don't show.)
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Will non grazing animals require food before magic?
2.Right now adventure mode is basically unplayable in big cities. Will we get the option to add a population cap to sites?
3.Will gods have personalities after magic?
4.What can we expect the villains to do in our forts once the Villain Update is done?
1. There's nothing particularly pointing in that direction before magic. We'd probably need smaller portions for the little beasts.
2. It's something we'll be looking at again when we get adventure mode updated. I'm not sure what the outcome will be - depends on how regular optimizations go.
3. It seems probably that there will be some distinctions drawn for the creation myth generator.
4. The existing w.g. plots beyond the artifact heists include assassinations, embezzlement, sabotage, coups... so that's the kind of thing I'd expect. Sabotage of course in the fort setting could lead to all sorts of troublesome behaviors.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Just watched the new video by Kitfox on YouTube, and I’ve got a question. I’ve noticed that the game doesn’t pause when a smaller screen pops up. Will it be possible to move these screens around on the screen so they don’t cover up what you don’t want them to cover up?
They are not currently movable! This seems possible, though you can have various things open at once and overlaps are really not handled well by the engine, so we'd have to make sure they can't cross each other.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
1. Might creatures (particularly forgotten beasts) made of fluid, gas or powder get buffed before the big wait? Seeing as how they're really fragile and a bit underwhelming (despite monsters like this in fantasy often being extra dangerous/hard to kill).
2. Will it be possible for off-site/worldgen combat calculations to be made more accurate at some point? Outside of the "literally viewing the battle with a second camera" thing planned for after the map rewrite, that is.
According to what I've heard from others, basically nothing factors into the outcome but combat skills, size, and the leaders tactical skills (basically none of their special abilities or comparative body material durability matters); and battles are all a sequence of 1v1s, so sheer numbers can't "overwhelm" an opponent, at best being extra dice rolls for one individual to get a lucky strike in.
3. Are animated worldmap tiles in the plans for the post-release graphics enhancements? Stuff like moving water/rivers, those "sparkles" in good aligned forests actually sparkling, "heat haze" for hot biomes, etc.
1. I dunno, there's a lot to do and it's a very specific sort of thing. But yeah, something does need to happen.
2. Sure it's possible. Have to be careful about a lot of things so, since we don't have easy access to the unit definitions and we can't use any CPU time on it.
3. We didn't have particular plans for it. The world map is caught between several different uses and it probably needs a different print mode for each one.
Quote from: Urist McWiddershins
1. Will the world gen rewrite / myth and magic include constellations? Processions of the equinoxes? It would be really cool to have, say, "The Astrological age of the Shoe Cobbler end with the Cavy Pig Apocalypse, for so it was written in the beginning," for example. Also it would give all my astronomers more stuff to do :)
2. Tropics and Sub-Tropics would be very nice to have, rather than the random distribution of deserts and jungles, even if the implementation was "quick and dirty" so to speak. Any plans to include that? And trade winds? Oh I can see how this would affect boats and trade... hmmmmm....
*Since the game already has wind values based on latitude, it looks as though this was already an intended feature, but never fully implemented? I'm not sure if you intend to go the full nine yards and include axial tilt and such.
*edits for clarity
3. A recent combat log indicated that: "A forgotten beast bit off Urist McDwarfbaby's head! The part went flying in an arc!"
Infant mortality being what it is in DF, will there be artwork for dead dwarven infants / infant body parts? Or will changes have to be made now that the game is being published and distributed to a wider audience than before?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8428324#msg8428324
Urist McWiddershins (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8428404#msg8428404
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8428534#msg8428534
Urist McWiddershins (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8428600#msg8428600
1. We have some of these notions in the knowledge/scholar side of the game already, but they don't mean anything in the game. We know stars exist from adventure mode. I'm all for playing around with it, but it's uncertain when these things will advance. We have notes about conjunctions and other magical happenings and such, and they are somewhat appealing because they are pretty easy to do by themselves.
2. Trade winds etc. haven't been relevant yet so I haven't spent much time on the wind model. Distribution of deserts and jungles isn't entirely random. It depends on rain shadows and latitude currently, though the overall rain distribution is randomized at first since the weather model doesn't give us much to work with. I expect it to be better around the time we get to boats.
3. We haven't drawn living babies yet and are hoping to get to that soon. I'm not too concerned about this. They had dead Spark in Ultima 7, and I think we'd be at about that level. I guess if you're unlucky you could get an intestine drag? This doesn't bother me at all, but I guess we'll see what happens.
Quote
Quote from: Buttery_MessWhat sort of FPS does the new version run at? Have there been optimisations that make it run faster?
Can you limit the fort's population size from inside the game now, rather than having to do it through the init files?
For that matter, have most of the modifiable values which affect gameplay which were located in the init and d_init files been put into the main game?Quote from: A_Curious_CatOn a side note, have you seen this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180561.0)? If so, what do you think of Putnam’s discovery?
It's a bit faster. Compiler upgrade really helped as usual.
Yeah, you can set almost all of the init/d_init options from inside the game now. There are some things like additional font support we still have to do in some way or another.
We were somewhat aware of that, if you look back through our comments, regarding pathfinding. But the 20% going to some kind of cage vs not cage or wtvr definitely has to be investigated. Fortunately we've been in discussion with Putnam on this kind of thing, and hopefully progress will be made. I didn't see it there, but I think the typical item temperature etc. stuff also came up. In any case, yeah, you have to go where the slowdowns actually are, and fix them.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerYou mentioned in the interview the other day that the 200 or so animal people don't have the layers info in their graphics RAWS to show clothing, hairstyles and such visually. That's a lot of data, so seems reasonable.
1) Presumably there's no hard-coded restrictions on adding these ourselves in our mods (for those of us who play in worlds where rat people are far more important than elves)? Or will we run into issues with elephant-man helmets?
2) Is this something you consider as needed for releasing Adventurer (since surely no-one ever plays parties consisting entirely of dwarves, elves, humans and goblins)?
Apologies if it's all been answered before. Been in hibernation while this arc gets done.Quote from: voliolFrom my understanding, the creature variation templates will continue to only be for creatures in the upcoming release, instead of being generalized for all sorts of objects. I imagine this is some technical issue, but on which level?
And if it ends up being expanded/replaced by something more general, do you think it could work on graphics tokens as well? Admittedly a bit suggestion-y, but I think it could shorten the graphics files quite a lot using the argument functionality.
1) You should be able to do it, yeah. It's just a ton of effort and art and such, especially if you want profession-based colors and specific items and all that. Some middleground would be easier to accomplish. I'm not sure if a full conversion would also hit a tech barrier - it's just a ton of data.
2) In that vein, we may also attempt a middleground ourselves. They already have fake clothing but it would be nice at least to see weapons.
Yeah, we haven't generalized creature variations. It's not so much a tech issue per se as it is a time issue. It's something I should be able to do, just generalizing the post-load-text-changing stuff, now that all the definitions are just sitting around before they are all finalized.
Yeah, presumably using some kind of template etc. would work for graphics to some extent. It gets complicated because you need to give the tile pages and positions and those aren't always consistent, and some are larger than 1x1 and some aren't, etc. But in principle yeah, there's a lot of compression that could be done. Even within the single dwarf definition I'm assuming.
Quote
Quote from: Mr Crabman1. Are duplicated raws still a problem, or will mods later in the loading order that use the same ID for an object (eg, a creature) replace/overwrite definitions in previous mods?
2. Is there a way to disable/toggle certain raw files, within a single mod/package from the workshop? For example, after downloading a "More Creatures" mod from the workshop, having some ingame menu that lets you toggle say, amphibians off but keep the mod's birds. Or alternatively, some other solution that allows a single Workshop subscription/page to contain what is technically multiple mods (so that "granular" mods don't have to post a million entries to the workshop).Quote from: Eric BlankI had the same concern. Several people specifically asked me to add support for removing certain features from the mod I'm curating, which I did by splitting it into multiple parts as well as the single all-in-one version. With the steam release, will this modularity be possible from a single download now, i.e. uploading multiple object folders in the same steam mod and disabling the ones you don't want?
1. We discussed this re: CUT etc. in your future post.
2. There's nothing like that. We're open to expanding what the system can handle, especially to overcome non-ideal situations like the one you describe, but there was only so much time we could devote up to this point.
With the changes to loading we made for the SELECT/etc. stuff, where all the mods exist in text space before they are processed, I think it should be easier at least. I'm optimistic we can get to a good place here, though I'm not sure if we'll need to eat the full scripting pill first or just keep burying ourselves in esoteric syntax. This causes a bit of inertia since it's not something I have a lot of experience with.
Quote from: LuuBluum
How long has the changelog grown to, presuming that you've managed to keep one this whole time?
Ha ha, I did not! It just didn't feel feasible this time, and the circumstances were all much stranger, so I set myself free of it. Changelogs will be kept again after launch.
Quote from: Randomizer
When will the caravans become more selective in the items they are willing to buy as well as the prices they put on items. They would act as real traders other then garbage collectors. They give a list of what they will accept. They may be convinced to take other stuff if it is of high quality and rare however.
How far off is the Improved Mechanics Update? (feasible trap mechanisms, springs, gears, ropes, pullies, piping, conveyer belts, maybe rock crushers, hydraulics?, Pneumatics?, etc.)
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8429988#msg8429988
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8430096#msg8430096
I assume when we do the economy stuff after the civ update after the magic update we'll see a very different trade system. I'm not sure what changes we'll make before then, since we just don't have enough information about resources and production.
I think Shonai_Dweller is more or less correct on the timing of the next pass on mechanism-type stuff.
Quote from: SamBucher
The Dwarf Fortress development page mentions "automatons and magical prostheses" as part of Myth&Magic. These features seems innocent on the surface level, but actually raise a lot of question (hopefully not too many to answer):
1. Are the prostheses only for limbs, or will there be ones for every organ?
2. How will prostheses fair in comparison to the original body part?
3. Will there be magical prosthetics that give the user magic powers?
4. Will it be possible to:
4,1. attach a prosthetic in addition to a being's natural body parts? Imagine a craftsdwarf having 4 arms, 2 natural and 2 artificial, increasing work speed.
4,2. replace a healthy body part with a prosthetic one?
4,3. mix and match parts (replace a dwarf's legs with prosthetic arms)?
5. How much of a dwarf's body can be replaced until he is considered an automaton?
6. Will automatons be able to take roles of nobility?
7. Will there be automaton models besides the standard humanoid worker?
8. What will be the upkeep costs of an automaton (I presume they won't need food and alcohol)?
9. Will you be able to have an automaton-exclusive fortress or play as an automaton in adventure mode?
10. Will it be possible for one to achieve immortality not via necromancy, but by replacing aging flesh with machinery/putting one's soul into an automaton body?
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8430097#msg8430097
SamBucher (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8430106#msg8430106
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8430403#msg8430403
1. Yeah, once magic and metaphysics and such are involved, some additional doors open here, and voliol's correct to bring up the different possibilities based on soul concepts and 'centers' for different functions being randomizable.
2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10. Mr Crabman handled all of these! The only thing I have to add is that we don't know what we're going to get to at first, so I wouldn't expect everything all at once.
Quote from: Elf Lord
You had said in villains part 2 a fort takeover could happen. Could you shed some more light on what this entails? And how the fort behaves afterwords? Does it become some big bad hq afterwords? Will villains use it as a base for future operations?
It isn't particularly planned out! But it would be pretty frustrating if a villain pulls off a coup and you just lose, since it would be a hidden thing you didn't catch, kind of like if a vampire could simultaneously gobble everybody at once. So it makes sense to let you carry on in some capacity. The counterpoint here is that you might not have as many commands and hopefully it wouldn't be too little or too irritating to play. So we're just exploring the idea now. And as you suggest, the AI for the villains would have to be expanded significantly, for whatever aspects of the fort you aren't running, and that's another issue. At the same time, once you have this capability, you could play something like a dwarf gang working down in a human sewer and have it kinda work, which would be pretty funny.
Quote from: rickalbert
Will we be able to visually identify wild plants, or will we still need to mouse over/select them?
Will we be able to see the specific weapons used in a trap?
With the recent balance changes to farming, have you considered making greenhouses from glass roofs/walls?
How do we identify the differences between animals and their savage giant cousins? Do they have different art, or are they larger than a single tile?
Are there any Beasts/Titans that will take up more than one tile, or is that something you're not interested in doing?
What time will the game actually release? Is it a "rolling release" where every timezone gets access at midnight (or some other time) or a global release where everyone gets it at 0000XXT?
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8430909#msg8430909
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431017#msg8431017
As an update to voliol's reply, which was correct at the time, we'll now have outdoor plant graphics for launch! We still need to do products, maybe differentiate certain crops (e.g. wheats), and perhaps differentiate between shrubs w/ usable growths and shrubs that are out of season or already picked, but it's much more varied outside now.
Yeah, weapon traps show differences in weapon, but they don't currently reflect multiple weapons.
Ha ha, greenhouses would take a bit of work for the game to understand! Wikipedia puts them slightly out of date (mid 1400s) as well.
Yeah, giant animals have much inflated tiles, but as Mr Crabman says, it's all visual and not mechanical. There are lots of problems to overcome in implementing actual multi-tile creatures.
I'm not sure how releases work on Steam! We have one button that we press, and this 'releases the game' as I understand it. My assumption is that this would be everywhere at once, but if Steam's internal workings make it function differently, I don't know.
Quote from: Randomizer
What will happen in the new version if you kill off the original dwarf caravan in the first year(drowning chamber)? Prolonged war? Will you ever get another dwarf caravan, perhaps from a different dwarf civilization?
You still can't fight your own civilization. There are technical issues with that we have to overcome at some point. Generally, diplomacy and such needs to be improved for it to feel at all proper between your fort and any of the civs.
Quote from: Xen0n
1. I’m very excited about the upcoming changes to the "difficulty" of trading & farming in the Steam release, as “balance / challenge” has always been a big interest of mine. Are there plans down the road to similarly tweak other systems with an eye for balance, e.g. changing how easy it is to feed a fortress via trees / fishing, or certain combat options like cage traps having outsized effectiveness?
2. Similarly, with the eventual “army / siege” update down the line, are there any plans relating to the consistency / relative strength level of goblin sieges? I know it was only a “gamey” stopgap measure at the time, but one aspect I appreciated about the old goblin siege mechanics in the pre-0.4x days was reliably knowing a goblin siege would turn up in the first few years of new forts (if listed as a neighbor), and subsequent sieges would usually be roughly proportional to your fort's wealth / size, regardless of what other things may have been going on in the world.
1. Yeah, we'll see some big changes when we get to the siege stuff for sure.
2. It's still always worked this way, and we've rebalanced the formulas for the launch, but there's the overriding trouble of population. If the goblins don't have the people, they can't send them, and we're always going to have to work around that going forward. Really, if you've killed most of the possible goblin invaders, the humans and elves and others should probably be filling the vacuum. Or something horrible could happen, but I don't want it to be too gamey. Of course, we never really came to terms with the opening of the underworld and how that should impact all subsequent games and the world generally. There's a lot to work with I think.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
So is ORANGE confirmed for being a new color in classic?
I was looking at some of the screenshots you had hosted of the new classic mode recently, when I noticed the color difference.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431157#msg8431157
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431176#msg8431176
We changed the 16 colors rgb files to make troublesome ones like the dark blue not be so unreadable, especially against the non-black background of Premium. Those colors will still be available to change.
Quote from: Pillbo
If you were cursed by a witch to live out your days as an animal person, which would you choose?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431093#msg8431093
Ha ha, yes, it is very kind of the witch to let me pick. I'd normally be inclined toward toads and slow lorises and cats, as favorite animals, but perhaps it's more fun to choose something that can fly!
Quote from: Mr Crab
1. Do the new STEAM_TAG and STEAM_KEY_VALUE_TAG tokens accept any string value at all, or are they limited to pre-defined values (and if so, what are they)? Normally I see Steam workshops only using a limited number of tags that mods opt in to, like this for example:
(image w/ some tags, but not lotsa tags)
2. Can mod descriptions be multiple lines? For instance, by putting newlines in the DESCRIPTION or STEAM_DESCRIPTION tags, or by using one tag per line? Same question goes for the changelog.
3. I see that files still have headers, like so (the first line here):Code: [Select]item_helm
[OBJECT:ITEM]
Currently this header is required to load the file (it determines the loading order of files and such), and must be unique; is that still the case, or is it vestigial?
4. Can different mods have files with the same name? Like, can another mod use `item_helm.txt` in its own object file at the same time as vanilla is loaded (provided that the object IDs inside the file are unique of course), or will it cause some conflict in processing later down the line?
4b. And if duplicates are allowed, does the header (from question 3) need to be unique between mods?
5. What is STEAM_METADATA used for?
1. Right now they allow anything and stuff just pops up in categories on workshop as far as I know. Many games seem to stop doing this, ha ha, and perhaps we'll be no different and start processing out most tags before we upload them. For now, there aren't any restrictions. This may quickly become unwieldy or otherwise ungood.
2. We don't specifically have a syntax for paragraph breaks. I do have an internal parser that has them for things like legends mode paragraphs and such, but it also uses [] so I'd need to handle that carefully.
3. It's mostly vestigial - I'm not sure it does anything with that line after it loads it, or if it just skips the first line these days.
4. I don't think this'll cause a problem.
4b. I don't think the header needs to be different. The top line is pretty much dropped after initial processing.
5. I have no idea! It's in their docs, and we support it, ha ha ha.
And yeah, since we've been doing questions etc on this since the AMA, I was also thinking this morning about automating a CUT before any new object. I'm not sure if this introduces problems? It seems like it definitely solves more problems than it causes anyway.
Quote from: Julius Clonkus
Now that we've got a listen for the soundtrack, I want to preface my question with reassurances that the ambient music tracks are absolutely amazing and I'll probably listen to them when I go to sleep later.
At the same time, The vocal tracks like Drink & Industry and a very clearly upgraded Koganusan have given me goosebumps on a wholly different level. Assuming there are no hidden surprises on the music front for The Release, what are the chances of other vocal tracks such as Tankard Basher and Danger Room, or even more all-new tracks finding their way into future updates?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431372#msg8431372
I'm all for more work in this direction. Those are Simon's tracks of course, and he worked on the DF versions with Dabu, so it all depends on availability and the success of the launch and all that sort of thing. I love the new music though and would gladly see more.
And, yeah, hopefully we can officially support streaming music mods as well - there are some tech barriers to overcome there (most of the load time at the beginning of the game is prepping music, and more music is more prep, whenever it happens), but it can definitely be done.
Quote from: Mr Crabman
I'm guessing the answer is yes, but is there a CUT_CREATURE and SELECT_CREATURE equivalent for all OBJECT types, including the graphics-defining stuff and creature variations?
And what happens if one uses a CUT_X tag (or SELECT_X) on an object that wasn't defined yet? For example, if CUT_CREATURE:DWARF, but the user disabled vanilla raws and has no other mod defining DWARF beforehand? Would `SELECT_CREATURE:undefined_creature` just silently not do anything or would it create the thing on the spot?
We have CUT and SELECT for most objects. But we don't have it for the graphics side yet.
I think CUT/SELECT calls on non-existant objects just quietly fail. Creating objects by default with SELECT seems kind of dangerous since it would be empty and might not be filled by the calling mod.
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 02, 2022, 06:44:35 pm
2. We don't specifically have a syntax for paragraph breaks. I do have an internal parser that has them for things like legends mode paragraphs and such, but it also uses [] so I'd need to handle that carefully.
Don't specifically have one? Does that mean it's possible, but just weird and clunky? Something like:
Code: [Select]
[DESCRIPTION:First line of a description]
[DESCRIPTION:]
[DESCRIPTION:Second line of a description, after a paragraph break]Would be somewhat awkward, but workable for when a mod needs a description of a moderate size that's still readable (or a changelog; I can't remember ever seeing a changelog that would fit in one line/paragraph comfortably).
And yeah, since we've been doing questions etc on this since the AMA, I was also thinking this morning about automating a CUT before any new object. I'm not sure if this introduces problems? It seems like it definitely solves more problems than it causes anyway.
Only problem I could imagine (if it's just a silent failure on nonexistent objects) is a small performance hit when loading the first versions of objects (in trying to delete previous ones that don't exist).
Creating objects by default with SELECT seems kind of dangerous since it would be empty and might not be filled by the calling mod.
Definitely the right call here.
Post by: voliol on December 02, 2022, 07:09:06 pm
Post by: Xen0n on December 02, 2022, 08:16:52 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 02, 2022, 09:01:32 pm
Also, is there any chance that feather tree eggs will get eggshells (and thus be collectible) before the release?
(Also, I’ll note that bug tracker seems to have been completely wiped clean. Is there any reason for that?)
Post by: LuuBluum on December 02, 2022, 09:04:08 pm
Post by: Paaaad on December 02, 2022, 10:45:05 pm
Quote from: PaaaadIn a Watsonian sense, how do you think a DF world gets its first anvil, given how you, in gameplay, need a forge to make an anvil... And you need an anvil to build a forge.
demonbunny3po: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425773#msg8425773
Paaaad (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425860#msg8425860
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425863#msg8425863
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8425865#msg8425865
Lemunde: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8426328#msg8426328
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8426344#msg8426344
Ha ha, I don't have anything to add to the discussion. We do have gods that made slabs somehow, so there are possibilities even without relying on stone anvils, molds, etc.
I take it you haven't put too much thought into it then. Fair enough. Thanks anyway!
Post by: Egan_BW on December 02, 2022, 10:57:58 pm
Post by: Ziusudra on December 02, 2022, 11:11:41 pm
(Also, I’ll note that bug tracker seems to have been completely wiped clean. Is there any reason for that?)The issues are still there, you can get to them using their id number, it's just that all searching seems to be broken.
Post by: clinodev on December 03, 2022, 01:53:37 am
Thanks for all the answers, Toady!
(Also, I’ll note that bug tracker seems to have been completely wiped clean. Is there any reason for that?)
They're preparing for the Premium release bug reporting system. The old data is safely backed up, we're told!
Post by: Rumrusher on December 03, 2022, 04:23:37 am
like I got some ideas of an necromancer+ vampire team fort draining new visitors that leads to raising them as intelligent undead workforce and it would probably suck if this and the coup stuff just ends forts when you only have them.
Post by: Octopusfluff on December 03, 2022, 05:40:07 am
i know a lot of people love the new tracks with vocals and i'm not trying in any way to take away from that, it'd just be helpful to not have things pulling me out of the ability to play to deal with something my brain wasn't prepared for, and i know for sure there are others with similar issues (or even potentially dissimilar issues but with the same solution), so mods seem like the reasonable answer here to me.
edit: now that the game is out, i can see that there's some stuff in the vanilla definitions that would allow a degree of changes, but it requires me to change my question:
will we gain the ability to add mods to existing save files?
this has become a serious obstacle with mods that aim to improve accessibility by adjusting icons in the ui, or for my use case, replacing audio elements that are highly disruptive (like that horrific REEEE REEE REEEE bird noise in grasslands which is absolutely deleterious to some of us)
making a new save file every time we discover an experiential issue that someone solved with a mod is problematic.
Post by: Silverwing235 on December 03, 2022, 08:14:37 am
Thanks for all the answers, Toady!
(Also, I’ll note that bug tracker seems to have been completely wiped clean. Is there any reason for that?)
They're preparing for the Premium release bug reporting system. The old data is safely backed up, we're told!
On that note, hopefully not having been a joke: What would be an acceptable alternate method of bug reporting for those who cannot, or simply no longer wish to, use Mantis? Emails with [BUG] in subject line, Discord DMs, or something else? (Besides the report forms on Mantis being a shade over-complex IMHO IIRC, this humble Firefox user is having profound difficulties coming to terms with the idea that they may simply have neglected to store their password in this one case, you see.)
Post by: voliol on December 03, 2022, 09:42:57 am
the one thing about the villains arc stuff is I hope you can play into the villains that join the fort than having to treat them like a pest... like are the villains that move to your fort still count as a citizen when they are the last citizen? I wonder if this might ruin villain hermit fort runs?
like I got some ideas of an necromancer+ vampire team fort draining new visitors that leads to raising them as intelligent undead workforce and it would probably suck if this and the coup stuff just ends forts when you only have them.
A villainous takeover that ends with you (the player) getting a chance of changing party might be fun. So you are made aware of the takeover and then given the choice of either abandoning the fort, playing as a group of rebel dwarves, or playing as the evil party, with the world hopefully respecting the choice made. So the coup happens and now you're a subsidiary of the local tower instead of a mountainhome, with the coup-leading necro villain as a noble, and your old dwarven civ as an enemy.
I wonder how much of that is plausible before the entity rewrite, though.
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 03, 2022, 10:08:09 am
the one thing about the villains arc stuff is I hope you can play into the villains that join the fort than having to treat them like a pest... like are the villains that move to your fort still count as a citizen when they are the last citizen? I wonder if this might ruin villain hermit fort runs?
like I got some ideas of an necromancer+ vampire team fort draining new visitors that leads to raising them as intelligent undead workforce and it would probably suck if this and the coup stuff just ends forts when you only have them.
A villainous takeover that ends with you (the player) getting a chance of changing party might be fun. So you are made aware of the takeover and then given the choice of either abandoning the fort, playing as a group of rebel dwarves, or playing as the evil party, with the world hopefully respecting the choice made. So the coup happens and now you're a subsidiary of the local tower instead of a mountainhome, with the coup-leading necro villain as a noble, and your old dwarven civ as an enemy.
I wonder how much of that is plausible before the entity rewrite, though.
Suggestions forum! Put in the suggestions forum! This sounds fun!
Post by: Criperum on December 03, 2022, 10:22:36 am
Post by: WereDragon on December 03, 2022, 06:56:32 pm
Would it be possible to have one piece of each armor type (one mail one breastplate, one left and right high boot etc) drawn out for each animal person and palatte swapped on demand rather than say one different armor graphic for each piece. Specifically can the graphics system handle palette swapping the gear itself, or would you need to premake the gear and apply the pallete swap manually to each piece of gear, then feed it to the graphic system.
Asking both in desire for custom mod armor/clothing without insane work, and for how your system could handle something like that for “middeground” you spoke of in reference to a similar question.
Also congratulations on the steam release!!!!
Post by: Doorkeeper on December 03, 2022, 08:32:31 pm
Quote from: A_Curious_CatThanks for all the answers, Toady!
Also, is there any chance that feather tree eggs will get eggshells (and thus be collectible) before the release?
(Also, I’ll note that bug tracker seems to have been completely wiped clean. Is there any reason for that?)
They're preparing for the Premium release bug reporting system. The old data is safely backed up, we're told!
Probably not, launch is two days from now and I believe Toady did not say anything on updating plants/creatures/etc. since the Steam announcement aside from graphics-related issues like invisible dwarves. If he couldn't get ascii, arena or adv mode in before launch, proper feather tree eggs likely didn't either. We'll just have to explain newcomers why they end up with a green mess when they have their dwarves try to collect one. No green eggs and ham for now
I assumed they were doing some kind of maintenance in prep for launch. Great to get a confirmation though
On that note, hopefully not having been a joke: What would be an acceptable alternate method of bug reporting for those who cannot, or simply no longer wish to, use Mantis? Emails with [BUG] in subject line, Discord DMs, or something else? (Besides the report forms on Mantis being a shade over-complex IMHO IIRC, this humble Firefox user is having profound difficulties coming to terms with the idea that they may simply have neglected to store their password in this one case, you see.)
If the depreciated bug report board on this forum is any indication, they probably won't manage an alternative method. Having a single centralized system is likely for the best anyways, especially as the playerbase grows larger. If you have an email, you can create a Mantis account. I haven't used Discord for a long time, but its design/layout doesn't look like it's suited for tracking/managing collections of indiv. reports (and dealing with duplicates, etc.) unless I'm wrong. There's Kitfox and co. now, but even if Toady has someone else manage these other bug reporting systems, he's still the sole dev, so everything will funnel to him regardless. Another problem with the email and dm approaches is they're not public, so the community can't contribute with bug solving.
I agree with the current report form having too many options for the average joe. Although if it isn't an OS issue, I think you can ignore the platform/os info. If you lost your password, you can submit a password reset (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/lost_pwd_page.php) if you haven't done so already (maybe after they finished updating the site). If it's lost for good, I don't think they'd mind if you make a new account, since DF isn't some online multiplayer. Who knows what they're doing rn, maybe they're gonna link Steam accounts with the bug tracker, idk. Best to wait
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on December 04, 2022, 07:03:05 pm
Post by: Bumber on December 05, 2022, 08:25:54 am
If you have an email, you can create a Mantis account.
Technical issues aside, such as Mantis not sending confirmation emails to certain addresses.
Post by: Doorkeeper on December 05, 2022, 03:50:18 pm
If you have an email, you can create a Mantis account.
Technical issues aside, such as Mantis not sending confirmation emails to certain addresses.
DFFD fixed this recently (not accepting newer domains). Let's hope the site update updates this.
Post by: Su on December 05, 2022, 07:20:46 pm
Post by: gutless_jim on December 05, 2022, 10:42:01 pm
Post by: Paaaad on December 05, 2022, 10:57:00 pm
I'm sure I'll find out once the game releases soon, but will there be any way to import my current Fortress into the Premium version and be able to see it with graphics? Thank you!No. This is a breaking update. First one since 2014 I think, but it still means it will not be compatible with existing saves.
Post by: Vanzetti on December 06, 2022, 08:21:18 am
Post by: Inarius on December 06, 2022, 09:23:00 am
Post by: hirsute_offender on December 06, 2022, 05:00:52 pm
will you make NFTs for people that donated back in the day? that would be really sweet
congratulations on the steam launch! i have a mac so i'll have to wait a little longer to play this new version but i'm looking forward to it!
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 06, 2022, 06:03:39 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 07, 2022, 12:37:09 am
MINERAL_SCARCITY in Advanced Worldgen parameters for every type of world changed from 2500 (sparse) to 100 (everywhere) in 50.01.
Was this simply to increase minerals in worlds, or did the balance change somewhere requiring a value of 100 to produce the same kind of result as 2500 in the previous version?
Titan and Werebeast Triggers changed from exact numbers to a 1-5 scale. Can we still adjust Worldgen.txt to use exact figures, or will these be ignored now?
Also:
Would it be possible to have an option to turn off the DFhack style prospector thing from the embark screen in the future? I get that some people are quite vocal about demanding to know exactly where the iron, gold and copper are, but it's kind of destroyed one of the fun things about fortress mode for me, which was adapting to what we discover upon Striking the Earth. Into the unknown...but actually not.
Post by: DG on December 07, 2022, 01:49:52 am
i have an email from bay12 from 2006 thanking me for my donation
will you make NFTs for people that donated back in the day? that would be really sweet
congratulations on the steam launch! i have a mac so i'll have to wait a little longer to play this new version but i'm looking forward to it!
I think NFTs would be a double edged sword. Sure, it might encourage some people but I know of at least one person who would never donate again.
Post by: hirsute_offender on December 07, 2022, 03:13:30 am
i have an email from bay12 from 2006 thanking me for my donation
will you make NFTs for people that donated back in the day? that would be really sweet
congratulations on the steam launch! i have a mac so i'll have to wait a little longer to play this new version but i'm looking forward to it!
I think NFTs would be a double edged sword. Sure, it might encourage some people but I know of at least one person who would never donate again.
i think last night zach and tarn made a few cool $ million, and will continue to make more with the game. they don't really have to answer to any individual fan, they can do what feels right and is fun just like they always have
Post by: DG on December 07, 2022, 03:25:45 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 07, 2022, 07:04:51 am
What's the thinking behind removing Civilian Alerts?
Is it due to some plans that you have for later improved sieges? Or a feature that you just haven't finished implementing yet?
I think most players (actual players, not folk struggling to get started) set up a civilian alert. Are our plant gatherers and hunters just supposed to die unless we indulge in horrible micromanagement of manual burrows?
Or is there a missing "get to the tavern" general button somewhere that we've all missed?
--edit
Noted that 50.04 now allows you to add all civilians to burrows. But my cats are now dead because they weren't in that list. So, not quite the same functionality as the Civilian alert (not to mention having to add all those migrants and new long-term residents every time).
Post by: Kadzar on December 07, 2022, 02:02:42 pm
What's the current priority for adding things like maps/exports for Legends mode to the Steam/itch.io release?
Post by: Toady One on December 07, 2022, 07:21:17 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2022, 03:06:15 am
Post by: Putnam on December 08, 2022, 05:46:47 am
How do the "difficulty setting" custom menu population/trade siege triggers interact with the triggers in the raws? Like most people playing in worlds with several different enemy civs, I've set the triggers individually per civ. Are the raws triggers now ignored?
The raw trigger format has been replaced with a system of 1-5, which can be adjusted on the fly in the in-game settings. The default triggers are, for 1/2/3/4/5
Population: 20/50/80/110/140
Production: 5000/25000/100000/200000/300000
Trade: 500/2500/10000/20000/30000
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2022, 06:26:32 am
So the lines in the entity raws are just ignored now?How do the "difficulty setting" custom menu population/trade siege triggers interact with the triggers in the raws? Like most people playing in worlds with several different enemy civs, I've set the triggers individually per civ. Are the raws triggers now ignored?
The raw trigger format has been replaced with a system of 1-5, which can be adjusted on the fly in the in-game settings. The default triggers are, for 1/2/3/4/5
Population: 20/50/80/110/140
Production: 5000/25000/100000/200000/300000
Trade: 500/2500/10000/20000/30000
Ok. Bit of a blow. We'll never see Tower Defence mod again.
Post by: Putnam on December 08, 2022, 08:41:24 am
So the lines in the entity raws are just ignored now?How do the "difficulty setting" custom menu population/trade siege triggers interact with the triggers in the raws? Like most people playing in worlds with several different enemy civs, I've set the triggers individually per civ. Are the raws triggers now ignored?
The raw trigger format has been replaced with a system of 1-5, which can be adjusted on the fly in the in-game settings. The default triggers are, for 1/2/3/4/5
Population: 20/50/80/110/140
Production: 5000/25000/100000/200000/300000
Trade: 500/2500/10000/20000/30000
Ok. Bit of a blow. We'll never see Tower Defence mod again.
No. I'm saying that the lines in the entity raws are now formatted 1-5 instead of precise amounts and use the settings in-game.
Post by: noirscape on December 08, 2022, 08:52:24 am
Post by: Urist McSadist on December 08, 2022, 12:04:40 pm
1.Right now modded creatures without textures show up as the debug creature, which can be annoying. Will this get changed?
2.Will we ever get multiple economic systems rather than strict capitalism or communism?
3.What improvements can we expect from the premium adv mode release?
4.Currently the game doesn't warn you about being close to necromancer towers. Can we expect this to change in the near future?
Post by: Ziusudra on December 08, 2022, 12:13:03 pm
It's got to show up as some thing. What would you rather it be?
1.Right now modded creatures without textures show up as the debug creature, which can be annoying. Will this get changed?
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 08, 2022, 02:51:15 pm
It's got to show up as some thing. What would you rather it be?
1.Right now modded creatures without textures show up as the debug creature, which can be annoying. Will this get changed?
Not the original poster, but to be honest, showing up as a graphic resembling its given ASCII tile (and using the given ASCII color) would be a good alternative. That way there's at least some information about what it is, instead of all non-sprited creatures being identical.
Post by: LuuBluum on December 08, 2022, 03:02:55 pm
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 08, 2022, 04:03:17 pm
I've noticed in the caverns that there are these small clusters of various colored diamonds and rubies/sapphires in a chunk of obsidian, but I can find nothing that causes this behavior in the raws. Is this intentional?Spoiler!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2022, 05:09:31 pm
Ah, OK, I see it now. The difficulty menu is setting the exact number that the triggers 1-5 correspond to. Got it.So the lines in the entity raws are just ignored now?How do the "difficulty setting" custom menu population/trade siege triggers interact with the triggers in the raws? Like most people playing in worlds with several different enemy civs, I've set the triggers individually per civ. Are the raws triggers now ignored?
The raw trigger format has been replaced with a system of 1-5, which can be adjusted on the fly in the in-game settings. The default triggers are, for 1/2/3/4/5
Population: 20/50/80/110/140
Production: 5000/25000/100000/200000/300000
Trade: 500/2500/10000/20000/30000
Ok. Bit of a blow. We'll never see Tower Defence mod again.
No. I'm saying that the lines in the entity raws are now formatted 1-5 instead of precise amounts and use the settings in-game.
Post by: LuuBluum on December 08, 2022, 06:20:43 pm
Spoiler!Is it? I genuinely have no idea what's going on with it; I'm not convinced that it's not just a bug, if it weren't so incredibly specific.
Post by: Putnam on December 08, 2022, 07:10:53 pm
Spoiler!Is it? I genuinely have no idea what's going on with it; I'm not convinced that it's not just a bug, if it weren't so incredibly specific.
Try mining a few.
Post by: LuuBluum on December 08, 2022, 07:17:10 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 08, 2022, 07:26:07 pm
I expect a tiny letter flittering about by itself would be completely lost in amongst the other graphics.It's got to show up as some thing. What would you rather it be?
1.Right now modded creatures without textures show up as the debug creature, which can be annoying. Will this get changed?
Not the original poster, but to be honest, showing up as a graphic resembling its given ASCII tile (and using the given ASCII color) would be a good alternative. That way there's at least some information about what it is, instead of all non-sprited creatures being identical.
I'm pretty happy with the test creature. Means I can test my game before Classic is released and have fun trying to work out if that's a bunch of happy party Hobbit's heading towards the fortress or a herd of evil hippos.
Maybe give the test creature a T-shirt with the ascii symbol clearly printed on it?
Post by: Mr Crabman on December 09, 2022, 04:10:32 am
I expect a tiny letter flittering about by itself would be completely lost in amongst the other graphics.It's got to show up as some thing. What would you rather it be?
1.Right now modded creatures without textures show up as the debug creature, which can be annoying. Will this get changed?
Not the original poster, but to be honest, showing up as a graphic resembling its given ASCII tile (and using the given ASCII color) would be a good alternative. That way there's at least some information about what it is, instead of all non-sprited creatures being identical.
I'm pretty happy with the test creature. Means I can test my game before Classic is released and have fun trying to work out if that's a bunch of happy party Hobbit's heading towards the fortress or a herd of evil hippos.
Maybe give the test creature a T-shirt with the ascii symbol clearly printed on it?
Why said it would be tiny? I didn't mean literally use the actual letters the game uses right now, I meant adding full-sized, 32x32 creature graphics that resemble ASCII letters. Well, a little smaller than 32x32 for the lowercase ones, but you get my point.
Post by: RedBanditDzhugashvili on December 09, 2022, 05:45:20 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 09, 2022, 05:52:41 am
I enjoy exploring Legends Mode and I often notice that people often have hundreds of relationships that only last 2-10 years or so, and never just settle down with one person that is a good match for them and who they "love" until they die. It's kind of depressing honestly. I think it would make for better storytelling to have more serious or long lasting relationships, eg. two people have been married for 50 years and one of them is killed/kidnapped by a monster or something, and the other gives up their comfy life in the hamlet to go search for/avenge them. It's just more dramatic. So, is there any plan to make relationships or marriages longer lasting/permanent (given the right circumstances)? I also think displaying the reason for break ups/divorces would be good as well.Read further. Long lasting marriages do exist.
All depends on the personalities of those involved.
Post by: TinFoilTopHat on December 09, 2022, 01:45:33 pm
Post by: kiiranaux on December 09, 2022, 04:50:35 pm
The CUT and SELECT tags you introduced for us are great. However, a couple of these tags are not currently included in the base game, but apply to raw-moddable files. The raw files lacking appropriate CUT or SELECT tags are:
Quote
body folder (all files) : b_detail_plan_default, body_default, body_rcp, tissue_template_defaultWhy this matters:
creature folder: c_variation_default
materials folder: material_template
and the following one which i'm personally less concerned about:
building folder: building (only applies to the two vanilla custom buildings, screw press + soaper, anyway)
Quote
If i want to make changes to, say, the c_variation_default file, I can't currently do that, and furthermore its in the same folder with all the creature files and have to ask my players to instead unload the entire Vanilla Creature Objects folder, with all its creatures.Are there any plans to introduce appropriate CUT and SELECT tags for these raw files?
Post by: Fi on December 09, 2022, 08:55:23 pm
Even before Dwarf Fortress's very successful release on both itch.io and Steam, congratulations by the way—got me a copy on Steam as soon as it became available, Adventure Mode was always last to receive the amount of attention Fortress Mode receives and now it's yet again last to receive updates and implementation into the premium version of Dwarf Fortress.
It's my favorite game mode, so I can't help but wonder, but thanks for all that you and your brother do. I'm very much looking forward to Dwarf Fortress's bright future now that its premium variant has been released.
E: Thought I clicked the right color, but I guess I misclicked something on my browser. I know someone gave me a response, but I prefer one from Toady—if possible—since he knows his own game and could explain what may or may not affect Adventure Mode (or something else by changing Adventure mode first) during development.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 09, 2022, 09:40:50 pm
Regarding a particular game mode, out of sheer curiosity since I personally don't know much about Dwarf Fortress's development, why is Adventure Mode always at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to updates in comparison to Fortress Mode, Legends Mode, and possibly Arena Mode?.
Even before Dwarf Fortress's very successful release on both itch.io and Steam, congratulations by the way—got me a copy on Steam as soon as it became available, Adventure Mode was always last to receive the amount of attention Fortress Mode receives and now it's yet again last to receive updates and implementation into the premium version of Dwarf Fortress.
It's my favorite game mode, so I can't help but wonder, but thanks for all that you and your brother do. I'm very much looking forward to Dwarf Fortress's bright future now that its premium variant has been released.
1) Questions to Toady in Lime Green
2) Precisely because Adventurer is going to get the time and attention it deserves, it has been delayed. The Villains update which will restart once Steam settles down a bit adds a whole new layer to Adventurer. Things have never been better really.
Toady could have taken the time and had it ready on release, in 6 months time or so, but decided Fortress was commercially viable by itself for the initial release right now. And apparently he was right.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 09, 2022, 09:56:01 pm
What kind of adjustments were made to worldgen balance this time that might affect the rate at which civs spread out? Maybe some necromancer nerfs or something?
--edit
After some fiddling about I found that adding Indoor/outdoor_farming gets them working again. I assume this is additions/fixes to the economy working behind the scenes. So generally is anything else interesting going on behind the scene during worldgen?
Post by: Immortal-D on December 09, 2022, 10:19:50 pm
Edit: Can you elaborate on what Putnam will be doing over the coming months? - Do you have plans to hire additional help in the near future? - Have you been receiving feedback about QoL changes to the UI? (tomb zones, report history, etc.)
Post by: Urist McSadist on December 10, 2022, 04:24:49 am
I would prefer it to show an ASCII tileIt's got to show up as some thing. What would you rather it be?
1.Right now modded creatures without textures show up as the debug creature, which can be annoying. Will this get changed?
Post by: clinodev on December 10, 2022, 08:24:02 am
Regarding a particular game mode, out of sheer curiosity since I personally don't know much about Dwarf Fortress's development, why is Adventure Mode always at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to updates in comparison to Fortress Mode, Legends Mode, and possibly Arena Mode?
I can totally see how you'd thing that from recent dev cycles, but the normal cycle is 70% Legend, 20% Adventure, and "Oh, we should probably put out a release!" 10% Fortress-- "Didn't get everything we wanted done, but we had to release. Maybe we'll get around to putting those new Adventure features in Fortress one day!"
Post by: thvaz on December 10, 2022, 09:53:36 am
Regarding a particular game mode, out of sheer curiosity since I personally don't know much about Dwarf Fortress's development, why is Adventure Mode always at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to updates in comparison to Fortress Mode, Legends Mode, and possibly Arena Mode?
I can totally see how you'd thing that from recent dev cycles, but the normal cycle is 70% Legend, 20% Adventure, and "Oh, we should probably put out a release!" 10% Fortress-- "Didn't get everything we wanted done, but we had to release. Maybe we'll get around to putting those new Adventure features in Fortress one day!"
Indeed, I still don't know why night trolls never appear in fortress mode.
Post by: Silverwing235 on December 10, 2022, 10:42:26 am
I know that fees and taxes and whatnot probably take a sizable chunk out of your sales revenue, but it looks like you just made a boatload of cash. Any fun plans for the money? DF-related or not.
Yeah, excuse me? For reference, you've botched the colour formatting somewhat, there - needs to be more like this.
Post by: Silverwing235 on December 10, 2022, 10:49:29 am
Looks like Steam/Itch has been a massive success (Grats!). After you have established a health care fund, have you considered using some of the extra money to hire professional programming help? Either to ease your workload or help clean & optimize the code.
Knowing Toady's intent somewhat, from a recent AMA on Reddit, the proverbial pendulum appears to be swinging in the direction of the latter option.
Post by: Su on December 11, 2022, 01:28:23 pm
[we quite liked the degree of control we had in the old system, so if it was intentionally removed and WONTFIX'd rather than an unexpected side effect of the new one... well, we'd be a little sad.]
what has collaborating with fans been like? will mike and the others be continuing to provide assets as development continues?
Post by: SlapFactory on December 11, 2022, 03:38:17 pm
At the time of writing this I know it hasn't even been a full week since the steam launch so I know everyone is furiously working away at the pesky bugs and my questions might get rendered obsolete quite quickly. I do currently have a few questions primarily aimed at the steam version:
1. I noticed in the steam version that combat and announcement logs are currently limited and temporary compared to previous version. I just wanted to check if a more comprehensive and permanent log will be brought back into future versions. Rereading what my guys were up to is important for storytelling purposes.
2. Related to storytelling, will we eventually be able to export legends content like before? Viewing it in 3rd party programs was fun but it was the easiest way to export world gen parameters.
3. There seems to be some confusion that the game has been slightly 'simplified' (less granular labor management, inability to select specific ammo, burrows etc) for the sake of reaching a wider audience. I don't believe that was ever mentioned and besides a few specific examples I don't see much evidence of that so I believe that's just a rumor that a handful of people are running with. I'm certain a lot of the examples people site are things currently in the works. Unless I missed it, which I totally could have, it might be nice to have a list of familiar features currently missing that are currently being worked on from the "old" version that will make their way to the steam version versus things that have been actually been simplified if that's the case.
I'm sure the post-release write up you will do following the classic release might shed some light on my questions.
Post by: therahedwig on December 11, 2022, 04:07:53 pm
we saw someone on the kitfox discord say that the reason labor management was changed was because you don't want us to be able to micromanage our dwarves. is this a true sentiment, or were they just salty?So, I haven't gotten a copy of the premium version yet, but that statement is probably based on one of the DF talks (https://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html) (just do a ctrl+f search for 'therapist'):
[we quite liked the degree of control we had in the old system, so if it was intentionally removed and WONTFIX'd rather than an unexpected side effect of the new one... well, we'd be a little sad.]
Quote from: Toady One
Then there's the other branch you could take which is improving the ability to set jobs and micromanage things that utilities like Dwarf Therapist and so on do. This is sort of the spreadsheet approach or otherwise to make more management possible where it just kind of breaks down what the methods we're currently using.
And we are not really for a sort of spreadsheet approach. We wanna have, we wanna try and find another solution, not saying we have even found a solution there. And we like dwarven autonomy, but we are kind of mindful of the fact that it can take control out of your hands. So without kind of committing to a specific course of action, those are the things that we're mindful of and we definitely realize that it's not a tenable position that we're holding now, that the game really does become hard to work with when you have lots of dwarves. And we'll just have to kind of work with that slowly when we get to the next set of releases and so on.
Quote from: Toady One
And I haven't tried [dfhack autolabor] either, but it's along the lines of stuff that we've been talking with people about for years, but it's just a difficult problem about more dwarf autonomy, in their labor selections. And that of course raises a lot of questions about the role of the player and whether or not you can do megaprojects quite the way you want, and so forth. So you still want options that allow you to have more control over them. But what if you just set up the jobs and the dwarves were able to organize who does them fairly confidently, then that would be a whole burden taken off the player in terms of like making sure they have architecture selected on a dwarf or whatever.
As for the saltiness, from my experience, there is always a huge friction whenever there's a massive UX update in any given project or game (Blender 2.8 comes to mind, it too switched to something much more mouse-focused while being very keyboard focused), and I suspect that people who believe that no change was intended with malice are a little upset from all the friction.
Prolly, this labour system will be reworked a bunch of times, to find a sweet spot between people who want to micromanage and people who really hate micromanaging (or find it unnecessary). But before that can be done, there's a bunch of questions that need to be answered, like, can therapist work with the current labour system, or does it need a toggle to prevent it from interfering, etc.
Post by: Beag on December 11, 2022, 08:22:27 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 11, 2022, 08:31:24 pm
Such a difficult thing to manage, and was probably hoping for feedback on how to make it even better. Instead gets hit with "OH NO GAME HAS CHANGED! Simplification! Sell OUT!!".
Post by: DG on December 12, 2022, 03:25:06 am
Post by: Mobbstar on December 12, 2022, 01:56:17 pm
Looks like Steam/Itch has been a massive success (Grats!). After you have established a health care fund, have you considered using some of the extra money to hire professional programming help? Either to ease your workload or help clean & optimize the code.
Knowing Toady's intent somewhat, from a recent AMA on Reddit, the proverbial pendulum appears to be swinging in the direction of the latter option.
Did they say if the new team member will be specialised in anything? e.g. UX design
Post by: jipehog on December 12, 2022, 03:02:13 pm
we saw someone on the kitfox discord say that the reason labor management was changed was because you don't want us to be able to micromanage our dwarves. is this a true sentiment, or were they just salty?
Not sure but Tarn has made many comment on the topic which can be construed one way or another. For example: https://youtu.be/_vVmIJoaiig?t=960
Personally, I think they were going for a more approachable system and spreadsheets for a population of hundreds simply didn't fit in with their UI aesthetics. It is unfortunate that they didn't choose to add an advanced/manual mode that would have given more information and finer control for people who are interested in that.
Post by: leastannoyingman on December 12, 2022, 06:45:01 pm
Did they say if the new team member will be specialised in anything? e.g. UX design
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/z82m0g/im_tarn_adams_aka_toady_one_dwarf_fortress/iy9gq70/
>Maybe so! It's expensive but we're definitely going to need somebody for the ports and that ball is now rolling. If the launch goes well I think we'll be expanding beyond that. Bugs certainly, optimization, additional mod support, and perhaps more - I haven't thought about how to work in additional people on features in the core game, but it's not off limits.
And seeing how well the launch went (the game hit 1 million wishlists just a few hours ago!) I think we'd all be thrilled if they manage to find more of the right team(s) to offset as much of the work as needed (as they've done with Kitfox so far), while still staying true and focused to the vision of it all. The Premium release's success would likely help explore new formulas for tackling as much of the roadmap as is manageable/reasonable, given its' Herculean scale. And not to mention all that bugfixing and heavy optimization work, or even "unrealistic" goals such as multiplayer.
Edit - relevant new article:
https://www.pcgamer.com/after-spending-20-years-simulating-reality-the-dwarf-fortress-devs-have-to-get-used-to-a-new-one-being-millionaires/
Post by: TinFoilTopHat on December 12, 2022, 07:49:08 pm
Thanks. Haven't used forums in forever. Fixed!I know that fees and taxes and whatnot probably take a sizable chunk out of your sales revenue, but it looks like you just made a boatload of cash. Any fun plans for the money? DF-related or not.
Yeah, excuse me? For reference, you've botched the colour formatting somewhat, there - needs to be more like this.
Post by: Silverwing235 on December 13, 2022, 07:36:20 pm
we saw someone on the kitfox discord say that the reason labor management was changed was because you don't want us to be able to micromanage our dwarves. is this a true sentiment, or were they just salty?
[we quite liked the degree of control we had in the old system, so if it was intentionally removed and WONTFIX'd rather than an unexpected side effect of the new one... well, we'd be a little sad.]
what has collaborating with fans been like? will mike and the others be continuing to provide assets as development continues?
Another trip-up, I see. Toady did repeatedly mention that the particular choice of color - this, to be exact - was for being able to distinguish one question from another at month's end, IIRC.
Post by: Eschar on December 13, 2022, 10:37:15 pm
Post by: bool1989 on December 14, 2022, 06:03:36 pm
They'd be like bins, but they'd hold stone and wood, 10 stone or wood to a crate.
Please add them, i don't really like having to stuff all the stone into a garbage dump just to make my fortress look prettier.
Post by: therahedwig on December 14, 2022, 06:18:21 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on December 14, 2022, 07:00:57 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 14, 2022, 10:14:55 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 15, 2022, 12:03:37 am
I kind of love the way that, in 50.0x, you can click on your cats or even the giant hamster closing in on your fisherdwarves and read that he's "grouchy after being caught in the rain" and other such thoughts. Is that supposed to happen, or is it something you'll be re-concealing later? Same for enemy skills, were they visible before? I forget.
Iirc, in the first playthrough on the KitFox YouTube channel, Toady One said it was a bug.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 15, 2022, 02:30:51 am
I've got a couple summoned intelligent pets in my current fort I've assigned to mining, and they're actually doing it. Gave them bedrooms and stuff too.
Post by: Vivalas on December 15, 2022, 10:46:50 am
Regarding a particular game mode, out of sheer curiosity since I personally don't know much about Dwarf Fortress's development, why is Adventure Mode always at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to updates in comparison to Fortress Mode, Legends Mode, and possibly Arena Mode?
Even before Dwarf Fortress's very successful release on both itch.io and Steam, congratulations by the way—got me a copy on Steam as soon as it became available, Adventure Mode was always last to receive the amount of attention Fortress Mode receives and now it's yet again last to receive updates and implementation into the premium version of Dwarf Fortress.
It's my favorite game mode, so I can't help but wonder, but thanks for all that you and your brother do. I'm very much looking forward to Dwarf Fortress's bright future now that its premium variant has been released.
E: Thought I clicked the right color, but I guess I misclicked something on my browser. I know someone gave me a response, but I prefer one from Toady—if possible—since he knows his own game and could explain what may or may not affect Adventure Mode (or something else by changing Adventure mode first) during development.
Just to chime in here, I know DF2014 (40.01) was, like, almost exclusively an adventure mode update. It does feel like the most unpolished mode sometimes but I think those edges will get polished before the Big Wait.
Post by: Vivalas on December 15, 2022, 10:56:25 am
we saw someone on the kitfox discord say that the reason labor management was changed was because you don't want us to be able to micromanage our dwarves. is this a true sentiment, or were they just salty?
[we quite liked the degree of control we had in the old system, so if it was intentionally removed and WONTFIX'd rather than an unexpected side effect of the new one... well, we'd be a little sad.]
what has collaborating with fans been like? will mike and the others be continuing to provide assets as development continues?
In regards to this, I was kinda in the camp of not liking the new system (change is hard!) until I read more about it from the reddit community and it's kinda ingenious in a way I hadn't really thought of and I'm not sure if you knew, but since the system will prioritize basically whoever is idle to do a task if there's no skilled laborers, a dwarf who otherwise would have just sat around doing nothing in the spreadsheet system will overtime do that task and gain skill, and then start being prioritized by the system, so dwarves will organically kind of "assign" themselves roles over time. Granted, there should still be some amount of precise control, maybe (and I think the system right now is a middle ground), but I also just have a inching of a feeling that maybe people haven't completely approached it with a completely open mind either.
EDIT: Either way, micromanagement and having to even use Dwarf Therapist in the first place was always my least favorite part of the game, especially with hundreds of people, and I really like the new change. Now I wish other colony sims would use it, especially Rimworld. Maybe I'm just not as in to the colony sim scene as I thought it was but this is the first time I've seen such a system, so it's cool to see (unless I'm mistaken), Tarn continuing to innovate game design wise.
Post by: Bumber on December 15, 2022, 01:46:09 pm
the system will prioritize basically whoever is idle to do a task if there's no skilled laborers, a dwarf who otherwise would have just sat around doing nothing in the spreadsheet system will overtime do that task and gain skill
The issue is that sometimes your skilled labor is just busy for a moment, and then an unskilled dwarf crafts a sub-par quality item with your resources. Dwarves can gain skill by idling in a guildhall, instead, which you can just designate as a single tile of floor somewhere until they petition for a proper one.
We need to be able to edit what labors the default work assignments are allowed to use, and display the relevant skills for the dwarves more readily when you're selecting them.
Post by: kiiranaux on December 15, 2022, 03:26:55 pm
Post by: Vivalas on December 15, 2022, 04:20:49 pm
the system will prioritize basically whoever is idle to do a task if there's no skilled laborers, a dwarf who otherwise would have just sat around doing nothing in the spreadsheet system will overtime do that task and gain skill
The issue is that sometimes your skilled labor is just busy for a moment, and then an unskilled dwarf crafts a sub-par quality item with your resources. Dwarves can gain skill by idling in a guildhall, instead, which you can just designate as a single tile of floor somewhere until they petition for a proper one.
We need to be able to edit what labors the default work assignments are allowed to use, and display the relevant skills for the dwarves more readily when you're selecting them.
The emphasis is on micromanagement, not skill gain, but I agree. Everything can use a bit tweaking. I'm not super up to snuff in the hyper-details of fortress management but I think you can also assign dwarves to workshops, or something, or if its a resource you don't want to waste set the profession linked to "only people designated can do this", etc. I think what you're describing is already possible, by default general laborers can't do labors specifically designated for work details, unless I'm missing some aspect of what you're saying. You can then also designate the dwarves assigned to that work detail to only do the work you assign them, if you really want it done right away.
Post by: Putnam on December 16, 2022, 06:08:56 am
the system will prioritize basically whoever is idle to do a task if there's no skilled laborers, a dwarf who otherwise would have just sat around doing nothing in the spreadsheet system will overtime do that task and gain skill
The issue is that sometimes your skilled labor is just busy for a moment, and then an unskilled dwarf crafts a sub-par quality item with your resources. Dwarves can gain skill by idling in a guildhall, instead, which you can just designate as a single tile of floor somewhere until they petition for a proper one.
We need to be able to edit what labors the default work assignments are allowed to use, and display the relevant skills for the dwarves more readily when you're selecting them.
You can set up guild halls regardless of petition, you don't need a single tile or anything, they'll use them anyway.
Post by: Vordak on December 16, 2022, 11:38:06 am
\vanilla_creatures_graphics\...\graphics_creatures_layered.txt
Need full information about what kind of tokens is possible there at all?
Below I will give the lines I am interested in with comments and questions about them.
Question #1
Spoiler: Material tokens (click to show/hide)
Question #2
Spoiler: Layer exclusion depending on the availability of a certain equipment (click to show/hide)
Question #3
Spoiler: Colors of clothing (click to show/hide)
Question #4
Spoiler: Appearance depending on tissue' modifiers (click to show/hide)
Question #5
Are there any plans to simplify the coding for graphics_creatures_layered.txt?
Because, by my opinion, it's pretty obvious that some code parts could be combined into some templates that could simply be referenced in just one or two lines.
Question #6
Almost all item objects at now use the coloration system based on replacing certain colors of the base item tile by colors from the palettes, that presented in "\vanilla_descriptors\...\palettes.png".
Do you feel the strength and willpower in yourself to do something similar for tiles from "\vanilla_creatures_graphics\", that used in layer system? Tiles of clothing or weapons, for example.
Question #7
Is it possible now to encode the equipment' look on "graphics_creatures_layered.txt" by the Item quality (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Item_quality)?
If yes, then how?
I will ask to local experts - not to comment on these questions, there is no insult in this request. Here need the unambiguous answers.
Post by: Miuramir on December 17, 2022, 12:55:00 am
the system will prioritize basically whoever is idle to do a task if there's no skilled laborers, a dwarf who otherwise would have just sat around doing nothing in the spreadsheet system will overtime do that task and gain skill
The issue is that sometimes your skilled labor is just busy for a moment, and then an unskilled dwarf crafts a sub-par quality item with your resources. ...
It seems that the intended use case is that in the rare situations where high quality is required with limited materials, you assign a specific workshop to your legendary dwarf (second tab; the assign-a-dwarf interface tells you their skill level), and then set a work order specifically for that shop (third tab). Note that you can also give names to buildings, to help you pick them out later. In-game, this makes a fair amount of sense; the workshop of a master crafter who is engaged in producing items of exceptional quality would probably be different than a mass-production shop turning out cheap stuff for the masses.
Post by: Miuramir on December 17, 2022, 01:38:22 am
I know that fees and taxes and whatnot probably take a sizable chunk out of your sales revenue, but it looks like you just made a boatload of cash. Any fun plans for the money? DF-related or not.
FYI, it's not as much as it seems. To give a rough approximation based on what we've heard, let's assume that we start with a factor of x1.00, and then reduce it:
* Steam takes 30%, taking it to 0.70
* After covering initial expenses, Kitfox takes 20%, taking it to 0.56
* Taxes could vary a fair amount depending on how they are set up, but something in the neighborhood of 35% might be a guess if they're operating as individuals; taking it to 0.364
Additionally, due to regional pricing the initial x1.00 is going to be multiplying an average which is something less than the ~$30 US price. And as I understand it the Kitfox cut is higher at first to pay off the artists, musicians, etc., but that gets paid off quickly at these volumes. On the plus side, itch.io takes a smaller cut, although I'd guess the volume is also drastically lower there.
All told, a decent guess at their "take home" is somewhere in the range of a third, or around $10 per copy. While it's hoped that some people will continue to support on Patreon, and that there will be a long tail of sales over the decades to come (and hopefully some spikes as it comes to other platforms), a conservative estimate / financial plan would be that this needs to support them for a long time. Long term annual return on safe investments like S&P 500 indexes are around 10%, so in extremely handwavy, Fermi-estimate terms each copy sold is about $1 of annual income to cover both brothers and whatever other relatives they are supporting, while living in the Pacific Northwest, which is not exactly cheap. Note also for those who are not adults in the US that individual health insurance and health care is crazy expensive and gets worse as you get older; the brothers and their families have already had some health care issues that prompted the Steam release in the first place.
So, at more-or-less confirmed ~300k sales as of several days ago, that is less "Toady One demands a gold throne for his office" and more "Toady One has been upgraded from Modest Quarters to Decent Quarters, and mostly gets to eat prepared meals instead of raw plump helmets" :) (That said, I sincerely hope that sales continue to blow expectations out of the water, and that DF continues with amazing improvements for decades to come.)
Quote
"It's just a ton of money, but it's also for 20 years," Tarn Adams said. "So when you divide that by 20, you're kind of back down into normal tech salary range. Which is still pretty high, obviously."
Post by: Nopenope on December 17, 2022, 10:59:52 am
Post by: Su on December 17, 2022, 03:11:03 pm
Another trip-up, I see. Toady did repeatedly mention that the particular choice of color - this, to be exact - was for being able to distinguish one question from another at month's end, IIRC.
i prefer lime to lime green. if you can show me toady specifying lime green rather than just a generic green, i'll change it; but plenty of questions have been asked using lime before with no complaints.
Post by: brewer bob on December 17, 2022, 03:39:16 pm
i prefer lime to lime green. if you can show me toady specifying lime green rather than just a generic green, i'll change it; but plenty of questions have been asked using lime before with no complaints.
From the first post of the thread (emphasis added):
If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 17, 2022, 05:08:24 pm
The green is pretty hard to see on some monitors.i prefer lime to lime green. if you can show me toady specifying lime green rather than just a generic green, i'll change it; but plenty of questions have been asked using lime before with no complaints.
From the first post of the thread (emphasis added):If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well.
Post by: Fatace on December 17, 2022, 09:56:50 pm
1. With the new additions to the Hidden Fun Stuff (gem spires and all their goodies), Will there be any changes or tweaks to this? While this might seem very hard for new players.. this is.. a oddly easy way to quickly obtain divine artifacts, specially since the baddies that can spawn with in.. tend to be made out of dust or something very weak.
2. With those changes to the Hidden Fun Stuff.. will there be changes to Vaults or anything for adventure mode? (it was possible to open a underworld pillar in adventure mode and cause demons to spawn too).
3. More or less likely when adventure mode is released.. alot of new players will question why we can't mine....lol. Will anything be implemented to let us do this in Adv Mode? Maybe something similar to how DFHack's gui/advfort worked? I would assume it would only allow us to dig on our player-made camps and nowhere else.
4. Without having you spoil to much, will there be any adventure mode bugs/issues that will be fixed for the adv. mode release?
Post by: lethosor on December 18, 2022, 01:38:19 am
From the first post of the thread (emphasis added):"Works pretty well" is far from a requirement. There's no way that Toady will miss a question because it's a slightly different shade of green. The purpose of the color is just to draw attention to questions, so let's stop complaining about people's exact question colors. If Toady cares, I'm sure he will clarify.If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 18, 2022, 02:43:26 am
Nobody cares what shade of green you use. Just don't use bright yellow as someone someone did earlier.From the first post of the thread (emphasis added):"Works pretty well" is far from a requirement. There's no way that Toady will miss a question because it's a slightly different shade of green. The purpose of the color is just to draw attention to questions, so let's stop complaining about people's exact question colors. If Toady cares, I'm sure he will clarify.If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well.
And, for what it's worth, green is really hard to read on some monitors as it's very dark.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 18, 2022, 05:51:58 pm
Is the plan to release adventurer, then get back to villains, or release adventurer once villains is done (since it seems to be a large part of future adventurer play).
Also:
You've mentioned that you want DF playable for people without a numeric keypad. Does this extend to removing keypad movement from Adventurer? Or are you going to keep the keypad controls and also implement other ways of getting about with a mouse like in Caves of Qud?
For what it's worth I wouldn't feel very comfortable playing a roguelike and not being able to use the keypad.
Post by: clinodev on December 18, 2022, 09:12:58 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 18, 2022, 10:42:40 pm
The composers all seem to be interested in returning for the Adventure Mode Soundtrack!Excellent. Just having a musical cue as you accidentally stumble into a haunted biome would be great. Wait, what's going on here, sense of dread intensifies. Hoary Marmot Corpse attacks!
Post by: Miuramir on December 19, 2022, 05:26:30 am
You've mentioned that you want DF playable for people without a numeric keypad. Does this extend to removing keypad movement from Adventurer? Or are you going to keep the keypad controls and also implement other ways of getting about with a mouse like in Caves of Qud?
For what it's worth I wouldn't feel very comfortable playing a roguelike and not being able to use the keypad.
My grognardia is flaring up, so I feel compelled to point out that many of the earliest roguelikes were played on terminals that may not have had keypads or had weird proprietary ones, and used hjkl movement like vi. To this day Angband and many of its descendants support two switchable keysets, one of which uses hjkl (etc) movement and thus needs a lot more shifted and control keys for other commands; this tends to be popular with people playing on laptops or reduced-count keyboards as seem to be weirdly popular in the mechanical keyboard community.
I'd love to see first-class support in DF for multiple, loadable, keysets, including at least one supplied default for each of minimal, invert-T, and full keypad.
Post by: Stained_Class on December 19, 2022, 09:09:36 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 19, 2022, 09:20:37 am
Switchable keysets from the outset. Yeah, that's what I was getting at I think. Original controls (at least as far as moving about), alt controls, plus mouse for the mouse slaves.You've mentioned that you want DF playable for people without a numeric keypad. Does this extend to removing keypad movement from Adventurer? Or are you going to keep the keypad controls and also implement other ways of getting about with a mouse like in Caves of Qud?
For what it's worth I wouldn't feel very comfortable playing a roguelike and not being able to use the keypad.
My grognardia is flaring up, so I feel compelled to point out that many of the earliest roguelikes were played on terminals that may not have had keypads or had weird proprietary ones, and used hjkl movement like vi. To this day Angband and many of its descendants support two switchable keysets, one of which uses hjkl (etc) movement and thus needs a lot more shifted and control keys for other commands; this tends to be popular with people playing on laptops or reduced-count keyboards as seem to be weirdly popular in the mechanical keyboard community.
I'd love to see first-class support in DF for multiple, loadable, keysets, including at least one supplied default for each of minimal, invert-T, and full keypad.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 19, 2022, 05:45:38 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 19, 2022, 10:28:36 pm
iI also think that using hjkl for movement would be a good idea.You've mentioned that you want DF playable for people without a numeric keypad. Does this extend to removing keypad movement from Adventurer? Or are you going to keep the keypad controls and also implement other ways of getting about with a mouse like in Caves of Qud?
For what it's worth I wouldn't feel very comfortable playing a roguelike and not being able to use the keypad.
My grognardia is flaring up, so I feel compelled to point out that many of the earliest roguelikes were played on terminals that may not have had keypads or had weird proprietary ones, and used hjkl movement like vi. To this day Angband and many of its descendants support two switchable keysets, one of which uses hjkl (etc) movement and thus needs a lot more shifted and control keys for other commands; this tends to be popular with people playing on laptops or reduced-count keyboards as seem to be weirdly popular in the mechanical keyboard community.
I'd love to see first-class support in DF for multiple, loadable, keysets, including at least one supplied default for each of minimal, invert-T, and full keypad.
:wq
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 19, 2022, 11:53:35 pm
What are the other four directions of an hjkl control setup? (Quick Google only shows it as an alternative to wasd, can't seem to find an agreed standard for the diagonals).iI also think that using hjkl for movement would be a good idea.You've mentioned that you want DF playable for people without a numeric keypad. Does this extend to removing keypad movement from Adventurer? Or are you going to keep the keypad controls and also implement other ways of getting about with a mouse like in Caves of Qud?
For what it's worth I wouldn't feel very comfortable playing a roguelike and not being able to use the keypad.
My grognardia is flaring up, so I feel compelled to point out that many of the earliest roguelikes were played on terminals that may not have had keypads or had weird proprietary ones, and used hjkl movement like vi. To this day Angband and many of its descendants support two switchable keysets, one of which uses hjkl (etc) movement and thus needs a lot more shifted and control keys for other commands; this tends to be popular with people playing on laptops or reduced-count keyboards as seem to be weirdly popular in the mechanical keyboard community.
I'd love to see first-class support in DF for multiple, loadable, keysets, including at least one supplied default for each of minimal, invert-T, and full keypad.
:wq
Seems you'd lose a lot of the keyboard controls for the sake of movement. Guess it doesn't matter if you're going to be using a mouse.
Post by: TheGoomba98 on December 20, 2022, 12:54:59 pm
- Why doesn't the official sprite for beak dogs show them with the rainbow-colored skin that's still in their raws?
Post by: voliol on December 20, 2022, 01:06:29 pm
- Why doesn't the official sprite for beak dogs show them with the rainbow-colored skin that's still in their raws?
I recall Toady mentioning that they were partially based on ThreeToe's peach-faced lovebirds, but that now that the game has actual peach-face lovebirds (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Peach-faced_lovebird) they shifted towards another of the inspirations. The other inspiration being the graboids from Tremors 2. I got no idea if this change was initiated by the brothers, or was one made by the artists that they agreed to.
Post by: tsallast on December 20, 2022, 06:38:32 pm
My interpretation: https://i.imgur.com/D5J166w.png (https://i.imgur.com/D5J166w.png)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 20, 2022, 08:55:18 pm
Is that something that needs more development (to have multi recognise lots of unenclosed coffins as separate burial places) or is your vision of dwarven burial to have each coffin in its own room (and therefore system is working as intended).
(Also because the tombs are zones, when you designate a memorial hall over the graveyard it says it's "overlapping" which I think reduces the value, right? Guess that's not a big deal but I do like to avoid overlapping zones...)
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 21, 2022, 05:59:08 am
- Why doesn't the official sprite for beak dogs show them with the rainbow-colored skin that's still in their raws?
I recall Toady mentioning that they were partially based on ThreeToe's peach-faced lovebirds, but that now that the game has actual peach-face lovebirds (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Peach-faced_lovebird) they shifted towards another of the inspirations. The other inspiration being the graboids from Tremors 2. I got no idea if this change was initiated by the brothers, or was one made by the artists that they agreed to.
I always thought they were the bird mounts (known as 'chicken leg' or cockatrice) from Golden Axe to be honest based on the description and traits.
Post by: voliol on December 21, 2022, 06:22:07 am
- Why doesn't the official sprite for beak dogs show them with the rainbow-colored skin that's still in their raws?
I recall Toady mentioning that they were partially based on ThreeToe's peach-faced lovebirds, but that now that the game has actual peach-face lovebirds (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Peach-faced_lovebird) they shifted towards another of the inspirations. The other inspiration being the graboids from Tremors 2. I got no idea if this change was initiated by the brothers, or was one made by the artists that they agreed to.
I always thought they were the bird mounts (known as 'chicken leg' or cockatrice) from Golden Axe to be honest based on the description and traits.
Hmm, I wonder if maybe they were too (I'm sure it has been answered somewhere). Here's what Toady had to say back in 2009:
The original inspirations [for the beak dogs] were, as far as I remember, those things (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8R6I_NsKbo) from tremors 2 and for riding, yeah, the labyrinth things, though we didn't get the beaks from that, and the original cautionsaurus. Velociprators weren't an inspiration -- I think that just came up in that thread and I was trying to describe it in those terms. Our crayon pictures of them devolved pretty far away from that though, and they end up looking kind of like wingless featherless versions of my brother's lovebirds. I don't think they have little arms any more.
Post by: Miuramir on December 21, 2022, 12:50:12 pm
... is your vision of dwarven burial to have each coffin in its own room (and therefore system is working as intended).
I believe the intent is that dwarves prefer and hope for their own tomb, like they prefer and hope for their own bedroom. New and challenge forts may not have that luxury, but part of what keeps a dwarf going during hardships is the knowledge that they will be properly memorialized for all eternity upon death. Of course, as dwarves increase in status their expectations about what is an appropriate tomb increase, along with that of their other rooms. In some versions dwarves with nice tombs would go there occasionally to admire the statuary, etc. although I'm not sure if that happens currently. Now that we can more easily have specific statues commissioned, having a statue of each dwarf in their tomb is fairly high on my to-do list.
That said, a "Mausoleum" zone analogous to the "Dormitory" zone, for temporary or emergency housing of dwarves in bulk while you're building their actual rooms / tombs, would certainly seem to be a logical extension.
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on December 21, 2022, 01:20:02 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on December 21, 2022, 03:23:36 pm
Better handling of town populations in adventure mode would be great, but it will probably take the form of "anyone who isn't a historical figure isn't allowed to path or think unless a player or historical figure is currently interacting with them" or just not loading non historical figures that don't cover important positions like a single shopkeeper per shop or tavern and a few units set aside for guards
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on December 21, 2022, 03:43:22 pm
One would hope things get better, but that depends partially on advances in cpu and ram technology and drivers. I upgraded my system to ddr4 ram and saw huge improvement in speed for instance. It still slows down, but not to 5fps like it used to. Now I get 15ish in my 180 dorf fort.
Better handling of town populations in adventure mode would be great, but it will probably take the form of "anyone who isn't a historical figure isn't allowed to path or think unless a player or historical figure is currently interacting with them" or just not loading non historical figures that don't cover important positions like a single shopkeeper per shop or tavern and a few units set aside for guards
i feel like thatd take depth away though :/
Post by: Vivalas on December 21, 2022, 04:59:49 pm
One would hope things get better, but that depends partially on advances in cpu and ram technology and drivers. I upgraded my system to ddr4 ram and saw huge improvement in speed for instance. It still slows down, but not to 5fps like it used to. Now I get 15ish in my 180 dorf fort.
Better handling of town populations in adventure mode would be great, but it will probably take the form of "anyone who isn't a historical figure isn't allowed to path or think unless a player or historical figure is currently interacting with them" or just not loading non historical figures that don't cover important positions like a single shopkeeper per shop or tavern and a few units set aside for guards
It doesn't even need to be this restrictive, I think like 90% of it is random conversations. Which, to be fair, was in the development log when real time conversations were added. And I like the various things like people going out to get water. But I think you can be selective in what's shown to the player and simulated and still reach a good middleground.
Like, if we just ignored conversations from people who weren't in sight, then ran a few rounds in silent when you open a door so not everyone is immediately greeting at once, that would go a long way. In most of these settlements, the population is just standing around talking, so you can disable pathfinding anyways until units actually need to go out to get water or get in a brawl or something.
Post by: LuuBluum on December 22, 2022, 01:07:17 pm
And according to the most recent Steam update, it seems Putnam has been brought on to help with coding the game proper, so we have our answer.Looks like Steam/Itch has been a massive success (Grats!). After you have established a health care fund, have you considered using some of the extra money to hire professional programming help? Either to ease your workload or help clean & optimize the code.
Knowing Toady's intent somewhat, from a recent AMA on Reddit, the proverbial pendulum appears to be swinging in the direction of the latter option.
Congratulations to Putnam! I have full confidence in your ability to help.
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on December 22, 2022, 03:54:38 pm
Congratulations to Putnam! I have full confidence in your ability to help.+1
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on December 22, 2022, 05:05:35 pm
I assume this might very well be clarified soon enough anyway by either Putnam, Tarn or Kitfox, but I'm curious if there's a specific focus that Putnam is currently set to have?
I might be wrong but I'd assume Toady will want to keep the big picture, foundational feature coding of the game to himself still.
Post by: squamous on December 23, 2022, 02:29:45 pm
2. For awhile now cannibalism has been completely impossible even if the civ has ethics that allow for it. Are there any plans to change that in the near future?
Post by: Inarius on December 23, 2022, 03:41:09 pm
Post by: jipehog on December 24, 2022, 02:15:52 am
Since then, we created the stress feedback thread, read the comments, and have collected a bunch of notes. We're planning on addressing a portion of the list for the Steam release (or before, with one of the patches, however that ends up working out), and hopefully we'll land somewhere more pleasant while not falling back to the permanent euphoria days. I don't have a definite list, since the work will be coupled with some numeric investigation - as I recall, players running experiments found that unmet needs weren't actually a stressor, just more of an annoying blaring siren which doesn't actually cause much stress (which needs to be looked at for that reason), and I need to see how the numbers are actually shaking out on the famous rain rememberance example vs. the body hauling work vs. cave adaptation nausea vs. etc. Then there are the more positive ideas along the lines of people comforting each other more and having some more fort-wide happy thoughts when the player does things like win sieges. We still want poorly run forts to have trouble, but forts that are run well should have more isolated/fixable problems, and those should be explained well and feel satisfying.
How did the stress feedback shape up? Any insights about mechanics involved
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 25, 2022, 09:29:49 am
I ask because my settings are to end at 50% with checks starting in the year 250, but I've just generated a 1000 year old world in which (according to Legends Mode historical figures list) 35 of 36 Megabeasts and 13 of 18 Titans are dead. So just wanted to check exactly what it's checking for before sending a bug report.
(And in a 2nd 1000 year worldgen 36 of 36 Megabeasts are dead and 13 of 18 Titans are dead, but worldgen didn't stop. I know it does check something as I have another worldgen set which checks for 30% dead at year 165 and that fairly regularly stops in the year 165.)
Is it possible that 50 as a setting just doesn't work?
Post by: Ghills on December 25, 2022, 12:57:41 pm
So I'm dipping back into DF, and haven't been able to parse a clear answer to this out of the previous FotF replies:
What is the state of keyboard control in DF and what plans are there for it going forward?
Here's the latest from Toady. You can read a little bit before this quote in this thread for some context (if you've already read this, sorry haha!).Keyboard stuff: There was some confusion over in the linked suggestions thread above and elsewhere about hotkeys etc., and generally I should clarify the different pieces of keyboard support and where we are at:
For hotkeys, I'll have to move some of them, since I can't assume we have a numberpad and wasd has to camp out over on the left side of the keyboard forever, but hotkeys for opening and using menus seems pretty easy to support. We do have to show them to the player somehow. Tooltips are one typical way, and there could be some layer that draws them under buttons as well (I guess some games have done, like, holding 'alt' for this kind of thing.)
For designations, I think the wasd+mouse combination can handle some things that people aren't giving it credit for (long tunnels etc.), and camera keys also work for doing up/down staircases. But we've listened to the feedback here, and a cursor mode is easy to support, since most of the code is sitting around for it and we already have cursor graphics. We just have to make sure new people don't get stuck in there.
For menu navigation, missing the numberpad and our old (sometimes inconsistent and annoying) methods of scrolling put us in a bind in some cases. Focus and button use etc. probably can't be the same between the various menus, because they are quite different from each other. Though I think, as with the Classic display and adventure mode, the main issue here is time. I see the pathway through for Classic/adventure stuff though, so it's easy to commit to doing those in as timely a fashion as possible after launch if that's the way we go. With a few of the menus, I'm not sure how much work it'd take.
We read through all of the comments and take them seriously, even the negative ones - there's no need to be rude or assume the worst. We're going to try to address issues and we think things are going to turn out well, but everything just takes time.
Don't expect it immediately and don't expect it to be as comprehensive as it was. Those of us who cared dropped the ball because Toady didn't think anyone did.
Thanks for the comprehensive answer. Looks like I'm not going to bother updating my DF for a while or possibly ever, then. Full keyboard control is key for reducing wrist strain for me. I need to reserve mouse use for things that are more important, like my job.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 25, 2022, 01:25:15 pm
So I'm dipping back into DF, and haven't been able to parse a clear answer to this out of the previous FotF replies:
What is the state of keyboard control in DF and what plans are there for it going forward?
Here's the latest from Toady. You can read a little bit before this quote in this thread for some context (if you've already read this, sorry haha!).Keyboard stuff: There was some confusion over in the linked suggestions thread above and elsewhere about hotkeys etc., and generally I should clarify the different pieces of keyboard support and where we are at:
For hotkeys, I'll have to move some of them, since I can't assume we have a numberpad and wasd has to camp out over on the left side of the keyboard forever, but hotkeys for opening and using menus seems pretty easy to support. We do have to show them to the player somehow. Tooltips are one typical way, and there could be some layer that draws them under buttons as well (I guess some games have done, like, holding 'alt' for this kind of thing.)
For designations, I think the wasd+mouse combination can handle some things that people aren't giving it credit for (long tunnels etc.), and camera keys also work for doing up/down staircases. But we've listened to the feedback here, and a cursor mode is easy to support, since most of the code is sitting around for it and we already have cursor graphics. We just have to make sure new people don't get stuck in there.
For menu navigation, missing the numberpad and our old (sometimes inconsistent and annoying) methods of scrolling put us in a bind in some cases. Focus and button use etc. probably can't be the same between the various menus, because they are quite different from each other. Though I think, as with the Classic display and adventure mode, the main issue here is time. I see the pathway through for Classic/adventure stuff though, so it's easy to commit to doing those in as timely a fashion as possible after launch if that's the way we go. With a few of the menus, I'm not sure how much work it'd take.
We read through all of the comments and take them seriously, even the negative ones - there's no need to be rude or assume the worst. We're going to try to address issues and we think things are going to turn out well, but everything just takes time.
Don't expect it immediately and don't expect it to be as comprehensive as it was. Those of us who cared dropped the ball because Toady didn't think anyone did.
Thanks for the comprehensive answer. Looks like I'm not going to bother updating my DF for a while or possibly ever, then. Full keyboard control is key for reducing wrist strain for me. I need to reserve mouse use for things that are more important, like my job.
Have you considered getting an alternative pointing device such as a trackball, touchpad, or a keyboard with a trackpoint?
Post by: Ghills on December 25, 2022, 09:25:05 pm
So I'm dipping back into DF, and haven't been able to parse a clear answer to this out of the previous FotF replies:
What is the state of keyboard control in DF and what plans are there for it going forward?
Here's the latest from Toady. You can read a little bit before this quote in this thread for some context (if you've already read this, sorry haha!).Keyboard stuff: There was some confusion over in the linked suggestions thread above and elsewhere about hotkeys etc., and generally I should clarify the different pieces of keyboard support and where we are at:
For hotkeys, I'll have to move some of them, since I can't assume we have a numberpad and wasd has to camp out over on the left side of the keyboard forever, but hotkeys for opening and using menus seems pretty easy to support. We do have to show them to the player somehow. Tooltips are one typical way, and there could be some layer that draws them under buttons as well (I guess some games have done, like, holding 'alt' for this kind of thing.)
For designations, I think the wasd+mouse combination can handle some things that people aren't giving it credit for (long tunnels etc.), and camera keys also work for doing up/down staircases. But we've listened to the feedback here, and a cursor mode is easy to support, since most of the code is sitting around for it and we already have cursor graphics. We just have to make sure new people don't get stuck in there.
For menu navigation, missing the numberpad and our old (sometimes inconsistent and annoying) methods of scrolling put us in a bind in some cases. Focus and button use etc. probably can't be the same between the various menus, because they are quite different from each other. Though I think, as with the Classic display and adventure mode, the main issue here is time. I see the pathway through for Classic/adventure stuff though, so it's easy to commit to doing those in as timely a fashion as possible after launch if that's the way we go. With a few of the menus, I'm not sure how much work it'd take.
We read through all of the comments and take them seriously, even the negative ones - there's no need to be rude or assume the worst. We're going to try to address issues and we think things are going to turn out well, but everything just takes time.
Don't expect it immediately and don't expect it to be as comprehensive as it was. Those of us who cared dropped the ball because Toady didn't think anyone did.
Thanks for the comprehensive answer. Looks like I'm not going to bother updating my DF for a while or possibly ever, then. Full keyboard control is key for reducing wrist strain for me. I need to reserve mouse use for things that are more important, like my job.
Have you considered getting an alternative pointing device such as a trackball, touchpad, or a keyboard with a trackpoint?
Have you considered that people who are living in their bodies might have explored all kinds of alternatives, and have reasons for their needs and wants?
I am so, so, so sick of people going 'have you thought of X?' as if I just need to learn about this one weird trick and suddenly nobody needs to consider any non-typical needs. That's not how it works, and even if you, individually, are saying it with good intentions and mean well, dealing with it literally every day gets old very fast.
ETA: Also, this is especially irritating because none of those address the actual issues. Deciding what an internet stranger's issues must be and then making suggestions based on those assumptions is very unlikely to result in anything productive.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 25, 2022, 10:25:11 pm
Post by: thvaz on December 26, 2022, 06:56:37 am
I'm really missing it.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 26, 2022, 07:23:56 am
How close are we to an Adventure Mode release?"A lot further off" (than classic and arena).
I'm really missing it.
Considering it doesn't seem to have actually started yet, hopefully will be at least 6-12 months away. Would like to think it gets as much attention as the new Fortress interface.
Post by: kiiranaux on December 27, 2022, 01:17:43 am
Is there any hope of getting the species descriptions back onto the overview? And what about nerfing the extremely-humanoid personalities of anything that doesn't have CAN_SPEAK?
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 27, 2022, 03:12:39 am
Physical descriptions - "fond of industry" - were previously an iconic feature of looking at units in dwarf fortress. Now they are buried four clicks down in the health menu. Instead, the first click of a unit gets in your face with a personality description, even for non-sentient creatures like frogs and elephants. A couple streamers have already made light-hearted fun of this.
Is there any hope of getting the physical descriptions out of the health screen and back on the main unit page?
Its true, because often the nitty-gritty of front forward or least accessible information of the past is also important to gameplay in things like assessing the full scope of needs (other than the hovering top 5) and their individual preferences for making important game decisions like which materials you should adorn the display in the private spaces.
I can only assume Toady's still hammering out the UI but i do miss the old splashscreen, much least is still intact when you investigate individual items with the magnifying glass icon, which seems like a missed opportunity to condense that health-screen description altogether into just a unit magnifying glass.
Post by: voliol on December 27, 2022, 12:48:10 pm
Post by: Inarius on December 28, 2022, 11:53:19 am
Post by: Eric Blank on December 28, 2022, 03:29:12 pm
Did you have a merry christmas?
Will adventure and arena mode be coming out at the same time? I feel its probable since taking control of units requires the adventure interface, but want to know whats planned.
I do miss arena mode. So hard to test things when you can't take direct control over a dwarf and make them do the interaction you want them to test.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 28, 2022, 03:47:04 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 28, 2022, 07:44:34 pm
Roadmap (posted about a day after Dwarf Fortress steam was released).
Did you have a merry christmas?
Will adventure and arena mode be coming out at the same time? I feel its probable since taking control of units requires the adventure interface, but want to know whats planned.
I do miss arena mode. So hard to test things when you can't take direct control over a dwarf and make them do the interaction you want them to test.
Classic: Quite soon (as it was)
Arena: Soonish
Adventurer: Much further away because it has a lot more left to do.
Post by: DeadlyLintRoller on December 29, 2022, 05:39:13 pm
Post by: Claije on December 29, 2022, 06:05:13 pm
Will modders be getting a way to edit dwarf image layers for the steam version without the inherent graphic incompatibilities of redoing the entire dwarf? is a SELECT_* tag a viable addition for this to allow more mod compatibility when editing or adding graphics?
What determines if an image used in game uses palettes for material color or not? Will modders have a way to set their graphics as palette colored? I haven't been able to figure out how to palette cheese.
Will dwarf layers be able to show material colors and dye colors, is there a particular reason that the layers were made for each of the vanilla materials instead of being a single palette colored layer? A group of modders I'm talking to have not been able to manage visible dye conditions outside of item tiles.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on December 30, 2022, 12:29:07 am
Also is there any way currently to make the embark box that shows the list of neighbours longer? It's already cutting off Towers a lot of the time in vanilla and really doesn't work at all in mods with multiple additional civs.
Post by: Randomizer on January 02, 2023, 04:22:04 pm
Also is there any way currently to make the embark box that shows the list of neighbors longer? It's already cutting off Towers a lot of the time in vanilla and really doesn't work at all in mods with multiple additional civs.
Do you plan on upgrading embark screen or the site finder in the near future?
I agree the embark box should show neighbors at a longer distance. Is it also possible to put all possible races in the site finder where you can check yes, no, friendly, or hostile for each one?
Post by: lethosor on January 02, 2023, 06:51:42 pm
Post by: Bumber on January 02, 2023, 06:58:41 pm
The "DF File Depot" link is also a redirect to the proper bay12games.com one.
Post by: Randomizer on January 02, 2023, 08:07:52 pm
Post by: PetMudstone on January 03, 2023, 04:44:44 pm
What determines if an image used in game uses palettes for material color or not? Will modders have a way to set their graphics as palette colored? I haven't been able to figure out how to palette cheese.
In "vanilla_descriptors_graphics", graphics\palette_default.txt defines all the palettes associated with colors in-game. This includes the "grayscale" palette that gets recolored based on material color token.
vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png contains all the palettes associated with colors. In both the .txt file and the .png the topmost palette is the "grayscale" one. Note that there are two halfs to each palette row. The left half is associated with wood items, and the right half is associated with metals, stone, just about everything else.
Post by: Toady One on January 04, 2023, 02:11:16 pm
Quote from: Mr Crabman
Don't specifically have one? Does that mean it's possible, but just weird and clunky? Something like:
[DESCRIPTION:First line of a description]
[DESCRIPTION:]
[DESCRIPTION:Second line of a description, after a paragraph break]
Would be somewhat awkward, but workable for when a mod needs a description of a moderate size that's still readable (or a changelog; I can't remember ever seeing a changelog that would fit in one line/paragraph comfortably).
DESCRIPTION currently overwrites the previous string, so I don't think this works. The changelog thing is steam's format, a single string. I'm not sure what they generally use for formatting there, escape characters or some syntax, no idea. We can work to support it at some point.
Quote
Quote from: A_Curious_CatAlso, is there any chance that feather tree eggs will get eggshells (and thus be collectible) before the release?
(Also, I’ll note that bug tracker seems to have been completely wiped clean. Is there any reason for that?)Quote from: Silverwing235What would be an acceptable alternate method of bug reporting for those who cannot, or simply no longer wish to, use Mantis? Emails with [BUG] in subject line, Discord DMs, or something else? (Besides the report forms on Mantis being a shade over-complex IMHO IIRC, this humble Firefox user is having profound difficulties coming to terms with the idea that they may simply have neglected to store their password in this one case, you see.)
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431602#msg8431602
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431622#msg8431622
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431808#msg8431808
Doorkeeper is correct about the eggs. We were mostly locked down by October 26 - it's just not possible anymore to do quick little changes right before a release, though the term won't be as lengthy now.
The new system doesn't involve creating accounts as I understand it. The number of accounts we have available is limited, so the current email method linked below is what we have.
https://kitfoxgames.notion.site/How-to-Report-Bugs-in-Dwarf-Fortress-b5e2ca19dabe408897d1c2669599b7a2
Quote from: Rumrusher
the one thing about the villains arc stuff is I hope you can play into the villains that join the fort than having to treat them like a pest... like are the villains that move to your fort still count as a citizen when they are the last citizen? I wonder if this might ruin villain hermit fort runs?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431683#msg8431683
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8431685#msg8431685
I think we're generally planning not to end forts. Like, full wereforts and such still work if I recollect. We also wanted to continue forts after, say, goblin conquest if the conquest isn't 100% lethal (which isn't a thing currently obviously.) That said, if your hermit has a rich inner life and is also running a place where visitors come, they are sorta putting themselves at risk a bit, and we'll see what situations we have to handle.
Quote from: Octopusfluff
now that the game is out, i can see that there's some stuff in the vanilla definitions that would allow a degree of changes, but it requires me to change my question:
will we gain the ability to add mods to existing save files?
this has become a serious obstacle with mods that aim to improve accessibility by adjusting icons in the ui, or for my use case, replacing audio elements that are highly disruptive (like that horrific REEEE REEE REEEE bird noise in grasslands which is absolutely deleterious to some of us)
making a new save file every time we discover an experiential issue that someone solved with a mod is problematic.
Graphics stuff can already be adjusted w/out worries about saves I think? I was doing it during development all the time anyway.
Sound just isn't that moddable yet, the format there isn't really complete. It doesn't know how to use non-vanilla files, doesn't have a place to put them. I wanted to get something in there so that saves could be a little bit compatible with more support later, by having any objects at all to work with.
Quote from: Criperum
Questions about prostetics reminded me about one thing: exoskeleton or power armor. What about them? In magic/myth future context of course.
I think there might be a power goal for this. We've vaguely thought about it anyway, in a few DF contexts. Any magic armor that imparts attribute/skill improvements in any setting is some kind of power armor? Not sure where the lines are drawn here.
Quote from: WereDragon
On animal people armor
Would it be possible to have one piece of each armor type (one mail one breastplate, one left and right high boot etc) drawn out for each animal person and palatte swapped on demand rather than say one different armor graphic for each piece. Specifically can the graphics system handle palette swapping the gear itself, or would you need to premake the gear and apply the pallete swap manually to each piece of gear, then feed it to the graphic system.
Asking both in desire for custom mod armor/clothing without insane work, and for how your system could handle something like that for “middeground” you spoke of in reference to a similar question.
It isn't currently possible to palettize equipment materials. We did the clothing/armor way before the palette system existed, and we need to loop back around to support things like this.
Quote from: Su
asking on the eve of release, but assuming you're reading this a good week or so after: were there any last minute mission-critical bugs you had to drop everything to fix, or has it been relatively smooth sailing?
Before the release, it was mostly good up until the end, though we had some crashes and such that weren't reproducing etc., or that were rare enough but we couldn't figure out. Right after launch, the crashes of course amplified a bit but it also meant that could be fixed quickly, mostly. We're also handling what's hopefully the last of the save corruption now.
Quote from: gutless_jim
will there be any way to import my current Fortress into the Premium version and be able to see it with graphics?
Paaaad: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8432272#msg8432272
Nope, it was just too much to do.
Quote from: Vanzetti
I've seen that the plan for boats is for them to be able to turn 90 degrees. Does this include turning around X or Y axis (that is, turning a wall into a floor and/or capsizing)?
The tricky part here is mainly the floors - the thin floors, and the thin floors on top of wall blocks. Neither of those are really supported if you rotate, without adding completely new types of tiles that the game doesn't understand at all yet. Doesn't mean it's impossible, just complicated and potentially not worth it.
Quote from: hirsute_offender
will you make NFTs for people that donated back in the day? that would be really sweet
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8432517#msg8432517
hirsute_offender (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8432534#msg8432534
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8432540#msg8432540
Not something I'm interested in. I don't support them, but this is not the place for what is already a much-had discussion.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerCouple of Worldgen questions:
MINERAL_SCARCITY in Advanced Worldgen parameters for every type of world changed from 2500 (sparse) to 100 (everywhere) in 50.01.
Was this simply to increase minerals in worlds, or did the balance change somewhere requiring a value of 100 to produce the same kind of result as 2500 in the previous version?
Titan and Werebeast Triggers changed from exact numbers to a 1-5 scale. Can we still adjust Worldgen.txt to use exact figures, or will these be ignored now?
Also:
Would it be possible to have an option to turn off the DFhack style prospector thing from the embark screen in the future? I get that some people are quite vocal about demanding to know exactly where the iron, gold and copper are, but it's kind of destroyed one of the fun things about fortress mode for me, which was adapting to what we discover upon Striking the Earth. Into the unknown...but actually not.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerHow do the "difficulty setting" custom menu population/trade siege triggers interact with the triggers in the raws? Like most people playing in worlds with several different enemy civs, I've set the triggers individually per civ. Are the raws triggers now ignored?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433017#msg8433017
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433020#msg8433020
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433048#msg8433048
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433213#msg8433213
Putnam handled the difficulty/trigger questions.
There's been some reworking of equations generally, but mainly, yeah, this was to increase the occurrence of minerals in default play. Of course, we improved the site finder after this so it might not have been as necessary in retrospect. But I think people will normally want a fort that works and has lots of stuff. The world trade system is really necessary before we start grappling with scarcity in any serious way, probably.
An option to just show 'metals' again isn't a huge technical problem of course, but as people pointed out leading to the current change, it was almost worthless. It basically meant gold and never iron, for example, as I recollect. Part of the rework was to add some deeper sedimentary layers (presumably ones that have moved about, though we don't really understand DF strata etc.) which alleviates this somewhat, but originally it was less of adapting to the unknown and more "there's no iron again". As I understand it.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
What's the thinking behind removing Civilian Alerts?
Is it due to some plans that you have for later improved sieges? Or a feature that you just haven't finished implementing yet?
I think most players (actual players, not folk struggling to get started) set up a civilian alert. Are our plant gatherers and hunters just supposed to die unless we indulge in horrible micromanagement of manual burrows?
Or is there a missing "get to the tavern" general button somewhere that we've all missed?
We're going to get something back there, or to something equivalent, likely before the army stuff or any of that. If I recollect, it was interfering with the new military tab, trying to keep it workable, and I just had to get something finished.
Quote
Quote from: KadzarWhat's the current priority for adding things like maps/exports for Legends mode to the Steam/itch.io release?Quote from: Stained_ClassWill Legends exports like the xml dump, the maps .bmp exports and other infos on the world like the world gen file, be back in a future version of the Premium game?
It's up there with other stuff that used to be in the game but is missing. All important to do, and I'd expect all of it back before adventure mode is fully updated because they are all pretty straightforward, but there might be exceptions here and there if the wrinkles get nasty.
Quote from: noirscape
What's the current state of the native Linux port for v0.50? Steam doesn't appear to support it, but performance with Proton is apparently good. Are there any plans to port v0.50 natively to Linux for Premium? Will Classic still get a native port going forward?
This is the idea, yeah. The old code is there but it's not fit to sell - have to deal with the symlink situation or whatever issues various maintainers and etc. were troubled by, and I'm not qualified for that. Have to discuss it with Putnam, see where it goes, etc. But our plan is to get to native support for some flavor at least, however that usually ends up working for closed source steam stuff etc.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Right now modded creatures without textures show up as the debug creature, which can be annoying. Will this get changed?
2.Will we ever get multiple economic systems rather than strict capitalism or communism?
3.What improvements can we expect from the premium adv mode release?
4.Currently the game doesn't warn you about being close to necromancer towers. Can we expect this to change in the near future?
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433121#msg8433121
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433168#msg8433168
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433262#msg8433262
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433380#msg8433380
Urist McSadist (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433714#msg8433714
1. It's possible to have options I suppose, but I don't want ASCII generally to show up in the graphical release without opt-in. It would be more confusing.
2. I'm not sure we have strict versions of either system you mentioned currently, but there'll be more variety with the entity rewrite and the economic stuff afterward.
3. The only stuff to definitely expect are graphics, better menus, mouse support, etc., as with the fort release. The rest is less expectable and more just stuff that will happen. I'm not sure if there are clear standouts like the labor system for improvement, since the whole thing is kind of a weird bird.
4. Multiple people have mentioned it. There are still more serious issues, but it's a reasonable request.
Quote from: LuuBluum
I've noticed in the caverns that there are these small clusters of various colored diamonds and rubies/sapphires in a chunk of obsidian, but I can find nothing that causes this behavior in the raws. Is this intentional?
TheFlame52: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433201#msg8433201
LuuBluum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433235#msg8433235
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433255#msg8433255
LuuBluum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433259#msg8433259
Quote from: RedBanditDzhugashvili
I enjoy exploring Legends Mode and I often notice that people often have hundreds of relationships that only last 2-10 years or so, and never just settle down with one person that is a good match for them and who they "love" until they die. It's kind of depressing honestly. I think it would make for better storytelling to have more serious or long lasting relationships, eg. two people have been married for 50 years and one of them is killed/kidnapped by a monster or something, and the other gives up their comfy life in the hamlet to go search for/avenge them. It's just more dramatic. So, is there any plan to make relationships or marriages longer lasting/permanent (given the right circumstances)? I also think displaying the reason for break ups/divorces would be good as well.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433396#msg8433396
Yeah, if that's all you're seeing, it's surprising. There are supposed to be a range of personalities and some support long durations.
Quote from: TinFoilTopHat
I know that fees and taxes and whatnot probably take a sizable chunk out of your sales revenue, but it looks like you just made a boatload of cash. Any fun plans for the money? DF-related or not.
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8436149#msg8436149
Ha ha, it's still too early. I mean, I got better health insurance! This is something. And now we're squaring away the game. Having people come on gobbles stuff up pretty rapidly, and DF only has one launch in all these years to go, so we need to be careful.
Quote from: kiiranaux
The CUT and SELECT tags you introduced for us are great. However, a couple of these tags are not currently included in the base game, but apply to raw-moddable files. The raw files lacking appropriate CUT or SELECT tags are:
body folder (all files) : b_detail_plan_default, body_default, body_rcp, tissue_template_default
creature folder: c_variation_default
materials folder: material_template
and the following one which i'm personally less concerned about:
building folder: building (only applies to the two vanilla custom buildings, screw press + soaper, anyway)
Why this matters:
If i want to make changes to, say, the c_variation_default file, I can't currently do that, and furthermore its in the same folder with all the creature files and have to ask my players to instead unload the entire Vanilla Creature Objects folder, with all its creatures.
Are there any plans to introduce appropriate CUT and SELECT tags for these raw files?
I just added it for the ones that could easily support, where it could be done quickly as the release approached, since they already had certain data structures/code blocks in place. It's certainly reasonable to get the functionality in everywhere and I understand why it would be useful.
Quote from: Fi
Regarding a particular game mode, out of sheer curiosity since I personally don't know much about Dwarf Fortress's development, why is Adventure Mode always at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to updates in comparison to Fortress Mode, Legends Mode, and possibly Arena Mode?
Even before Dwarf Fortress's very successful release on both itch.io and Steam, congratulations by the way—got me a copy on Steam as soon as it became available, Adventure Mode was always last to receive the amount of attention Fortress Mode receives and now it's yet again last to receive updates and implementation into the premium version of Dwarf Fortress.
It's my favorite game mode, so I can't help but wonder, but thanks for all that you and your brother do. I'm very much looking forward to Dwarf Fortress's bright future now that its premium variant has been released.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433650#msg8433650
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433762#msg8433762
thvaz: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433780#msg8433780
Vivalas: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8435500#msg8435500
I think the responses here more or less cover it - if you cast your view a little further back, it's simply not the case. It is the case the adventure mode is rougher, and I think that's because it's simply harder to write a procedural RPG than it is to write a procedural settlement manager and get up to territory where it feels acceptable, at least in the situation we have here, where we're not willing to use most of the RPG tropes/practices/etc. that would make things easier (like hitpoints, or scaling equipment drop tables, or etc etc). But there's a lot planned for adventure mode and we work on it quite a bit.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I'm seeing some changes in worldgen between 47.05 and 50.02 in my modded world. Mostly that my one incredibly aggressive expansionist city building civ is not expanding (as you'd expect them to do in 90% of worlds generated in previous version) and they are content to found a couple of sites then build tombs until they go extinct. Same raws, same worldgen settings, no errors in copying stuff across as far as I can see. Just...different.
What kind of adjustments were made to worldgen balance this time that might affect the rate at which civs spread out? Maybe some necromancer nerfs or something?
--edit
After some fiddling about I found that adding Indoor/outdoor_farming gets them working again. I assume this is additions/fixes to the economy working behind the scenes. So generally is anything else interesting going on behind the scene during worldgen?
I don't remember a change here with farming, but it's possible some bug or other was squashed that changed the balance of things. The main thing I remember changing is just that book writing slowdown that Putnam found, and the ui of course.
Quote
Quote from: Immortal-DCan you elaborate on what Putnam will be doing over the coming months? - Do you have plans to hire additional help in the near future? - Have you been receiving feedback about QoL changes to the UI? (tomb zones, report history, etc.)Quote from: Manveru TaurënérI assume this might very well be clarified soon enough anyway by either Putnam, Tarn or Kitfox, but I'm curious if there's a specific focus that Putnam is currently set to have?
I might be wrong but I'd assume Toady will want to keep the big picture, foundational feature coding of the game to himself still.
There are no plans for additional programmers currently. Lots of feedback coming in. So far we've gone through some version control stuff, and also squashed a save corruption after a few long sessions messing around with it (I was mainly backseat driving through DF oddities while Putnam used a debugger and tested saved etc.) Putnam also fixed some other issues here and there, and that seems like what it'll be like. I think I'll be doing the arena changes at some point and we'll get them merged in. It's possible the save corruption stuff will be patched in sooner, but it's just more difficult to schedule quick patches now that there are so many more moving parts, at least now before everything is settled.
I'm not sure about the larger question of the division of kinds of coding labor yet, it's just too early to know.
Quote from: Su
we saw someone on the kitfox discord say that the reason labor management was changed was because you don't want us to be able to micromanage our dwarves. is this a true sentiment, or were they just salty?
[we quite liked the degree of control we had in the old system, so if it was intentionally removed and WONTFIX'd rather than an unexpected side effect of the new one... well, we'd be a little sad.]
what has collaborating with fans been like? will mike and the others be continuing to provide assets as development continues?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8434192#msg8434192
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8434251#msg8434251
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8434334#msg8434334
jipehog: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8434517#msg8434517
Vivalas: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8435504#msg8435504
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8435570#msg8435570
Vivalas: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8435649#msg8435649
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8435896#msg8435896
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8436142#msg8436142
I specifically set up work details so you could micromanage your dwarves, and they aren't necessary for people that like the automated system (aside from some of the default ones), so this seems misplaced. Obviously there need to be improvements. They are already in progress.
Having people familiar with the project working on the project has always been great, ever since we started. There'll definitely be a need for art as we continue, even with the arena stuff I'll be getting into soon, and certainly as we continue on with adventure mode. A baby aardvark was also drawn recently.
Quote from: SlapFactory
1. I noticed in the steam version that combat and announcement logs are currently limited and temporary compared to previous version. I just wanted to check if a more comprehensive and permanent log will be brought back into future versions. Rereading what my guys were up to is important for storytelling purposes.
2. Related to storytelling, will we eventually be able to export legends content like before? Viewing it in 3rd party programs was fun but it was the easiest way to export world gen parameters.
3. There seems to be some confusion that the game has been slightly 'simplified' (less granular labor management, inability to select specific ammo, burrows etc) for the sake of reaching a wider audience. I don't believe that was ever mentioned and besides a few specific examples I don't see much evidence of that so I believe that's just a rumor that a handful of people are running with. I'm certain a lot of the examples people site are things currently in the works. Unless I missed it, which I totally could have, it might be nice to have a list of familiar features currently missing that are currently being worked on from the "old" version that will make their way to the steam version versus things that have been actually been simplified if that's the case.
1. Yeah, we just ran out of time. I was working on it the week before the release but it just wasn't going to be testable. Now that we're fixing serious bugs and etc., it'll be a bit more time, but it's one of the high priority things to get back.
2. Similar, but it'll be a tad longer than announcements/reports.
3. Ammo/burrows/work details also similar. Ammo we're going to do with a ranged combat rewrite generally, probably before/at beginning of adventure mode stuff (now that version control is up and there are multiple programmers, I don't think there's going to be a patch drought while adventure mode graphical upgrade is in progress.)
The simplification sentiments for ammos/burrows, to the extent they exist, are also misplaced, as it was for work details, though in a different way since there isn't even a parallel new system for these. Just didn't get to the ammo system, and the game can function without it for a bit, so it was a reasonable delay. Alerts obviously are missed a bit, but we've already got the add all buttons in a patch and we'll get to a bit more to reproduce the functionality in whatever way.
Sentiments more along the lines of 'launched without things we like and expect' (depot accessibility is another one, legends exports, finishing keyboard menus, existing ports, etc... also adventure mode ha ha) are reasonable. Sentiments like 'altered to appeal to a broader audience' are also obviously true - that was the entire point ha ha. But that doesn't mean we've 'dumbed it down' or whatever. That just hasn't happened.
Quote from: Beag
I noticed in the steam version of fortress mode some content changes have been made to make the game more approachable. Will adventure mode receive any content or gameplay changes when it finally releases on steam? And if so, are there any future changes you are able to tell us about at this time?
I imagine the process is going to be roughly the same as it was for fort mode. When you are updating a huge interface, sometimes it just makes more sense to change a system than to build an interface for it, and there are also lots of general changes that come up that make sense to do while you are in a given spot. With adventure mode, this is also coupled with the upcoming villains/army stuff - if it makes sense for some of that to come in earlier, because it would save a ton of time, we'll do it. But we don't want to get sidetracked into doing the whole of all that or it'll take too long, even though those two things together are specifically there in part to make adventure mode more of a full game experience.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I kind of love the way that, in 50.0x, you can click on your cats or even the giant hamster closing in on your fisherdwarves and read that he's "grouchy after being caught in the rain" and other such thoughts. Is that supposed to happen, or is it something you'll be re-concealing later? Same for enemy skills, were they visible before? I forget.
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8435352#msg8435352
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8435387#msg8435387
Yeah, I think it's a little weird sometimes, but it's mostly been funny and doesn't really bother me. If it's changed, I'd hope for something interesting to compensate.
Post by: Toady One on January 04, 2023, 02:11:36 pm
Quote from: kiiranaux
With alchemist removed as a skill, we got the option to use MODSKILL## for defining custom labors. It works fine. However, we can't seem to find a string for the unit type associated with MODSKILL##. So, for example, an elf will show up from off the map and his profession title is "Adept Skill1". Are we all overlooking a string that would let us rename the unittype Skill1?
Yeah, I don't think we had time to do any string support. This was something put in very quickly to get some kind of skill available in a basic way.
Quote from: Vordak
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8435972#msg8435972
1. full list: UNROTTEN, CONTAINS_LYE or POTASHABLE, NOT_WEB, WEB_ONLY, EMPTY, NOT_CONTAIN_BARREL_ITEM, GLASS_MATERIAL, BUILDMAT, FIRE_BUILD_SAFE, MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE, CAN_USE_ARTIFACT, WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY, ANY_PLANT_MATERIAL, ANY_SILK_MATERIAL, ANY_YARN_MATERIAL, ANY_SOAP_MATERIAL, ANY_LEATHER_MATERIAL, ANY_BONE_MATERIAL, ANY_STRAND_TISSUE, ANY_SHELL_MATERIAL, ANY_WOOD_MATERIAL, (also STONE GEM TOOTH HORN PEARL), USE_BODY_COMPONENT, CAN_USE_LOCATION_RESERVED, NO_EDGE_ALLOWED, HAS_EDGE, ON_GROUND (ha), NOT_ENGRAVED, NOT_IMPROVED, HAS_WRITING_IMPROVEMENT, DOES_NOT_ABSORB, FOOD_STORAGE_CONTAINER, HARD_ITEM_MATERIAL, WOVEN_ITEM, NOT_PRESSED, METAL_ITEM_MATERIAL, IS_SAND_MATERIAL, IS_DIVINE_MATERIAL, IS_CRAFTED_ARTIFACT, NOT_ARTIFACT.+
2. WIELD, ANY_HELD, and the normal category stuff you mentioned (token, type, category).
3. This was a discussion way back at the beginning, having an option to swap between profession and mat/dye colors. Added the support in to the creature layers, but I don't have the option yet. Oversight/time issue as launch approached.
4. No, I only did TISSUE_MIN_LENGTH and IF_MIN_CURLY. I don't think there are bp app mod queries at all. I just did what I needed.
5. Yeah, it can obviously be made better. No idea when that will happen.
6. The palette system came later, when the creatures were already done. It would be ideal to use the same system throughout, but that was not possible with the time we had.
7. I don't think item quality is available.
Now, a lot of changes/additions can be done here, and I understand why a lot of them would be valuable. This is just what we could do, with the time we had, the way events unfolded (keeping in mind what happened with the art while we were working on this stuff specifically.) I don't know when we'll get back to it, since we're working through some serious issues now that affect everybody, but I'd expect it there to be extensions as we go.
Quote from: Nopenope
Is open-sourcing parts of the game (especially the ones that relate to the more tedious aspects of it such as rendering, interface, etc.) now in the realm of possibility?
The rendering part specifically has been open source for a long time (though that's current in hiccup land since it was normally packed in with the linux version - DFHack people have a current copy of g_src though.) The new interface stuff isn't made with an API/lua or anything so it can't be released simply.
Quote from: Fatace
1. With the new additions to the Hidden Fun Stuff (gem spires and all their goodies), Will there be any changes or tweaks to this? While this might seem very hard for new players.. this is.. a oddly easy way to quickly obtain divine artifacts, specially since the baddies that can spawn with in.. tend to be made out of dust or something very weak.
2. With those changes to the Hidden Fun Stuff.. will there be changes to Vaults or anything for adventure mode? (it was possible to open a underworld pillar in adventure mode and cause demons to spawn too).
3. More or less likely when adventure mode is released.. alot of new players will question why we can't mine....lol. Will anything be implemented to let us do this in Adv Mode? Maybe something similar to how DFHack's gui/advfort worked? I would assume it would only allow us to dig on our player-made camps and nowhere else.
4. Without having you spoil to much, will there be any adventure mode bugs/issues that will be fixed for the adv. mode release?
1. Yeah. These were tweaks to existing stuff pretty much. If you mean soon, it's not a priority compared to the stuff we're currently facing.
2+3+4. Adventure mode is going to undergo the same process that fort mode went through - it's not just a graphical upgrade. We fix stuff, adjust stuff, make things more sensible, add whole new chunks, etc. Of course, making adventure mode really work well has been an ongoing issue, so I don't think we're going to shoot for too too much - completing villains and the army stuff are already aimed at this, and we don't have to do them all at once, and probably shouldn't. However, I'd be shocked if there weren't little additions here and there ha ha.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Very much looking forward to Adventurer. With this tileset and the awesome soundtrack (maybe more soundtrack? That would be nice) it should be great fun. Having given yourself a "much further away" deadline to get it done, is this the deep dive focus on bringing Adventurer up to the standards of Fortress with side bugs and other issues all addressed along with the interface that we've all been waiting for? Or is that still something that will eventually happen over a long period of time and updates in amongst other update arcs? While none of it is "finished" of course, how "finished" will it feel as a game compared with Fortress when this update is done do you think?
Is the plan to release adventurer, then get back to villains, or release adventurer once villains is done (since it seems to be a large part of future adventurer play).
Also:
You've mentioned that you want DF playable for people without a numeric keypad. Does this extend to removing keypad movement from Adventurer? Or are you going to keep the keypad controls and also implement other ways of getting about with a mouse like in Caves of Qud?
For what it's worth I wouldn't feel very comfortable playing a roguelike and not being able to use the keypad.
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8436686#msg8436686
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8436691#msg8436691
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8436772#msg8436772
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8436795#msg8436795
I think the main issue with getting adventure mode up to a fort standard all at once is kind of what you brought up - doing villains (and the army stuff) was our main plan for years for accomplishing this. So it just depends if we also want to push those into one giant release, which seems unnecessary. But we are going to be working on bugs and issues for the first adv release.
I think we're going to try to keep adventure mode entirely keyboard friendly - this would have been nice in fort mode as we're already experiencing ha ha. Just having keypad/no keypad options for keybindings seems like what people want, in addition to mouse support.
Quote from: TheGoomba98
- Why does the world map tileset have tiles for good+savage and evil+savage areas, but not for neutral savage areas?
- Why doesn't the official sprite for beak dogs show them with the rainbow-colored skin that's still in their raws?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437194#msg8437194
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437468#msg8437468
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437472#msg8437472
The responses covered the beak dog question. The raws should probably be updated rather than the image, now that we have giant lovebirds.
I think there aren't any neutral savage tile because they were never differentiated in ascii, and the good/evil savage things came in I think as just some extra art that we could choose to use or not, if I recall, though I don't really recall, ha ha.
Quote from: tsallast
What parts of the ear do the BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER parameters correspond to? Right now it seems a bit vague and it really could use some clarification.
I think your diagram is basically how I thought about them at the time, if the broadness there is extended the whole ear width uniformly and not just making the tip longer. So you basically scale the shape in either dimension, rotate it out, and fuse/hang the lobes.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Setting tombs in the new interface seems actually harder than previously (making a 1x1 zone on every coffin) unless you enclose every coffin in its own room and use the multi command.
Is that something that needs more development (to have multi recognise lots of unenclosed coffins as separate burial places) or is your vision of dwarven burial to have each coffin in its own room (and therefore system is working as intended).
(Also because the tombs are zones, when you designate a memorial hall over the graveyard it says it's "overlapping" which I think reduces the value, right? Guess that's not a big deal but I do like to avoid overlapping zones...)
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437555#msg8437555
We wanted to add some kind of catacomb zone to cover this, and didn't get there. It came up quite a bit in pre-launch testing. I don't think I can easily make multi recognize semi-enclosed spaces well, although I'm assuming there's various existing work on that.
As a side note, overlapping is a huge penalty now, so we're going to want to fix the spots where it feels improper.
Quote from: GOTOTOTOE
will df ever support higher population counts? fortresses typically cap (mostly due to performance reasons) at 200, in worldgen dwarven civilizations typically get in the thousands (with the largest ive seen at 140000) while human typically get into the tens of thousands, with a lot of their population being stacked in town sites, which again, due to performance issues, are unplayable. relative to our world (in the medieval period) though, even the largest human settlements pale in comparison to most small to medium sized historical cities, and player fortresses barely pass as villages, to the point that its easier to think of the various entities as citystates rather than more widespread empires and nations (something which fits the pretty small ingame world size pretty well, and a direction i think df should actually lean into). similiar games like songs of syx usually have their player settlements reach in the thousands, and while i totally understand that this performance cap is due to technological limitations (which the afformentioned game doesn't have), can we expect a raise in site population performance anytime soon? metropolises being larger than irl hamlets and armies being larger than in the dozens would help great for immersion, imo
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437620#msg8437620
GOTOTOTOE (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437630#msg8437630
Vivalas: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437658#msg8437658
I don't have much to add to the responses. It's just hard to make the numbers higher. The technological limitations are the main and often only problem.
Quote from: squamous
1. I've noticed in the current version, you're no longer able to assign "pet" sapients to a squad. In prior versions you could, for example, mod the game to make dwarves embark with trolls, and then assign those trolls to a squad led by a dwarf and give them weapons and armor and all that. Is the current absence of this feature a bug or intentional? If the latter I understand given that sort of thing will probably get a more nuanced system in the future but a lot of mods used it, so if its gone for good it'd be good to know.
2. For awhile now cannibalism has been completely impossible even if the civ has ethics that allow for it. Are there any plans to change that in the near future?
1. I didn't intentionally make a change from the old behavior. I'm not sure but it might be because I was wary of having militia captains being appointed and it was more noticeable in the new interface. I'm not sure.
2. Ha ha, I'm not sure - generally the near future has much larger issues. But it's reasonable for things to line up, at least to some extent, where whole new mechanics aren't required.
Quote from: jipehog
How did the stress feedback shape up? Any insights about mechanics involved
I must have written this up somewhere, but you can see that the system is completely different now. There's the happy faces at the top, which are the current stress level, and then that impacts the long-term stress level, which can currently only be seen with the haggard etc. adjective. And yellow faces etc. can never become harrowed etc., only red ones. And I think red ones go through the long term stages faster. Like a red one will hit level 1 long-term stress much faster than a yellow, and a yellow caps there while a red one goes on to level 2 then level 3. We adjusted tantrum/etc. frequency a bit too I think. And also rebalanced a some thoughts/memories I think. With a lot of people playing now, I think we should have some good feedback, but I haven't gotten a chance to go through it.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Wiki states Advanced worldgen setting BEAST_END_YEAR checks for dead Megabeasts and Titans. Is it just Megabeasts and Titans? Or do semi-megabeasts and forgotten beasts count? And is every Megabeast and Titan a historical figure? Or are there pools of abstract "Megabeast pops" somewhere?
I ask because my settings are to end at 50% with checks starting in the year 250, but I've just generated a 1000 year old world in which (according to Legends Mode historical figures list) 35 of 36 Megabeasts and 13 of 18 Titans are dead. So just wanted to check exactly what it's checking for before sending a bug report.
It checks the percentage of the initial starting population versus the size of the hf_mega vector... that should just be living megabeasts and titans. The only way what you're seeing is not a bug is if most of those megabeasts were children not original (I think, maybe.) Like if initial pop were 9 megas and 18 titans, then 14 of 27 remaining is still above 50%. But I'm assuming you started with more than 9 megas.
Quote
Quote from: thvazHow close are we to an Adventure Mode release?
I'm really missing it.Quote from: InariusDo you have any timeline/objective in regard of Aventure mode release ? I suppose it will be much faster than doing Fortress, but some things also have to be reworked, so maybe it will be longer than one can expect.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8439445#msg8439445
Yeah, it's not going to be fast. There are a lot of menus and options there. When you sit down to enumerate them, which we've done now, it ends up being quite a list, even just the stuff that needs to be minimally converted. Having a lot of existing art for them is useful, but there's just a lot to do.
Quote from: kiiranaux
Species descriptions - "fond of drink and industry" - were previously an iconic feature of looking at units in dwarf fortress. Now they are buried four clicks down in the health menu. Instead, the first click of a unit gets in your face with a personality description, even for non-sentient creatures like frogs and elephants. A couple streamers have already made light-hearted fun of this.
Is there any hope of getting the species descriptions back onto the overview? And what about nerfing the extremely-humanoid personalities of anything that doesn't have CAN_SPEAK?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8439751#msg8439751
The species description is literally the same for every dwarf, so I don't think it should take up a lot of important initial space. That space runs out very very quickly. And it was also reasonably buried under quite a few key presses in the older versions. For procedural creatures especially I think it's more important than where it's currently placed though.
The personality stuff is somewhat ridiculous, especially the weirder top traits. The thoughts mostly haven't bothered me so much.
Quote from: voliol
How does the near future look in the terms of improved modding support, versus squashing bugs and optimization? Some "missing" features such as not having SELECT/CUT for all object types means mods have to be written with workarounds/disallow usage with other mods. So I am wondering if it's worth waiting for 50.05 or .06 where that won't be needed, or if it's better (as a modder) to research the workarounds because it will be a while.
Putnam and I haven't gotten a chance to set anything up yet - they start in January. So it's just too early to say. For me it's certainly going to be a learning curve figuring out how it all works, whatever technical systems we end up using.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Did you have a merry christmas?
Will adventure and arena mode be coming out at the same time? I feel its probable since taking control of units requires the adventure interface, but want to know whats planned.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8440486#msg8440486
Yeah, I had a good holiday break.
We're going to do the non-adventure part of arena mode first, and then you'll get adv style control again once adventure mode comes out.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Lutefisk?
Yes. I ate three. No fish taste this year, which I think is good. (and I tasted the pepper, so not a covid symptom.)
Quote from: DeadlyLintRoller
Any thoughts on updating the encoding used for the text in raws? -- I'm having some trouble with this myself at the moment. What about the Raws format itself? Besides updating the files themselves, how big of a lift would it be to move to something like XML or JSON?
It's a huge process to switch. There's just a lot there, and it would all have to be reprocessed.
Quote from: Claije
Will modders be getting a way to edit dwarf image layers for the steam version without the inherent graphic incompatibilities of redoing the entire dwarf? is a SELECT_* tag a viable addition for this to allow more mod compatibility when editing or adding graphics?
What determines if an image used in game uses palettes for material color or not? Will modders have a way to set their graphics as palette colored? I haven't been able to figure out how to palette cheese.
Will dwarf layers be able to show material colors and dye colors, is there a particular reason that the layers were made for each of the vanilla materials instead of being a single palette colored layer? A group of modders I'm talking to have not been able to manage visible dye conditions outside of item tiles.
PetMudstone: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8442248#msg8442248
If something along the lines of the creature variations stuff where you can move around and insert etc. would be useful, that's certainly doable, and doable everywhere eventually, though it becomes a larger project. I understand the current system is quite clunky.
Palette availability is determined by whether we got to them or not, really. They were a later addition, and didn't make it everywhere where they didn't already exist, which includes all the creature stuff. Palettes didn't exist at the time, so dwarf layers don't refer to them.
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerAre there plans to be able to save the difficulty settings at some point? It's a little frustrating to have the custom settings reset at the start of every game.
Also is there any way currently to make the embark box that shows the list of neighbours longer? It's already cutting off Towers a lot of the time in vanilla and really doesn't work at all in mods with multiple additional civs.Quote from: RandomizerDo you plan on upgrading embark screen or the site finder in the near future?
I agree the embark box should show neighbors at a longer distance. Is it also possible to put all possible races in the site finder where you can check yes, no, friendly, or hostile for each one?
I didn't have specific plans for these, aside from I'm sure some notes generally touching upon those overall features that I didn't get to. It's all reasonable of course. Adjusting the site finder in that way might be more difficult because it would need to calculate distances/etc. for every tile or civ or whatever, and that's probably pretty hefty.
Post by: Bumber on January 04, 2023, 02:54:09 pm
Didn't have time to proofread this time! Apologies in advance, things are just that way for the time being.
...Quote from: Bumrusher
Apparently Rumrusher is "Bumrusher" now. :P
Post by: voliol on January 04, 2023, 02:54:59 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on January 04, 2023, 04:06:01 pm
Didn't have time to proofread this time! Apologies in advance, things are just that way for the time being.
...Quote from: Bumrusher
Apparently Rumrusher is "Bumrusher" now. :P
I though the question came from you actually
Post by: Su on January 04, 2023, 05:38:07 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 04, 2023, 05:39:24 pm
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Wiki states Advanced worldgen setting BEAST_END_YEAR checks for dead Megabeasts and Titans. Is it just Megabeasts and Titans? Or do semi-megabeasts and forgotten beasts count? And is every Megabeast and Titan a historical figure? Or are there pools of abstract "Megabeast pops" somewhere?
I ask because my settings are to end at 50% with checks starting in the year 250, but I've just generated a 1000 year old world in which (according to Legends Mode historical figures list) 35 of 36 Megabeasts and 13 of 18 Titans are dead. So just wanted to check exactly what it's checking for before sending a bug report.
It checks the percentage of the initial starting population versus the size of the hf_mega vector... that should just be living megabeasts and titans. The only way what you're seeing is not a bug is if most of those megabeasts were children not original (I think, maybe.) Like if initial pop were 9 megas and 18 titans, then 14 of 27 remaining is still above 50%. But I'm assuming you started with more than 9 megas.
Thanks for the answers!
Yeah, all 18 Titans and 36 megabeasts were there from year 0 (which matches the number set in advanced worldgen).
So, (if its not a bug) a possible reason is non-historical figure child Megabeasts that don't show in Legends (or 47.05 pops export)?
Although aren't all children of historical figures automatically historical figures? So that doesn't seem right.
--edit
Seems I was missing the Megabeast kiddies, really need that Legends data output back, rocs breed so much!
So basically working. Although the targets are near impossible to reach if worldgen goes on more than about 200 years as there are so many children. Maybe megabeasts should mate for life? They just rush out and have kids with the nearest thing that looks like them resulting in some crazy inbreeding...
Post by: dikbutdagrate on January 04, 2023, 10:15:28 pm
1. full list: UNROTTEN, CONTAINS_LYE or POTASHABLE, NOT_WEB, WEB_ONLY, EMPTY, NOT_CONTAIN_BARREL_ITEM, GLASS_MATERIAL, BUILDMAT, FIRE_BUILD_SAFE, MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE, CAN_USE_ARTIFACT, WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY, ANY_PLANT_MATERIAL, ANY_SILK_MATERIAL, ANY_YARN_MATERIAL, ANY_SOAP_MATERIAL, ANY_LEATHER_MATERIAL, ANY_BONE_MATERIAL, ANY_STRAND_TISSUE, ANY_SHELL_MATERIAL, ANY_WOOD_MATERIAL, (also STONE GEM TOOTH HORN PEARL), USE_BODY_COMPONENT, CAN_USE_LOCATION_RESERVED, NO_EDGE_ALLOWED, HAS_EDGE, ON_GROUND (ha), NOT_ENGRAVED, NOT_IMPROVED, HAS_WRITING_IMPROVEMENT, DOES_NOT_ABSORB, FOOD_STORAGE_CONTAINER, HARD_ITEM_MATERIAL, WOVEN_ITEM, NOT_PRESSED, METAL_ITEM_MATERIAL, IS_SAND_MATERIAL, IS_DIVINE_MATERIAL, IS_CRAFTED_ARTIFACT, NOT_ARTIFACT.+
1.) What in Sam Hill is an ANY_SOAP_MATERIAL token?
"A token used in defining custom reactions which produce soap goods, armor & weapons." - Would a forbidden beast made of FILTH_Y be weak to bolts made out of soap?
2.) Speaking of filth, will the GENERATES_MIASMA token ever be changed so as to permit materials other than rotting meat to produce miasma?
I've been trying to get a poop mod working for awhile, and the self-interaction logic is complicated enough as it is, (getting the self_interaction delay triggers just right, getting the dwarves to be variable levels of poop shy, having the dwarves physically explode from ruptured organs due to their own poop shyness, getting them dwarves not to poop in the hallways, and getting the dwarves to be consistent in whether they decide to drop their deuce inside of the fort's drinking well or not.) and just having an actual on-point material that functions correctly would be rad. Right now, I have to use RAW_FISH made out of DWARF♂. The RAW_FISH looks like an actual dwarf, which then rots into an entire dead dwarf, which then rots again and produces miasma. It's neat, since the dwarves won't actually clean it up on their own for some reason, and thus it requires player micro.
The problem with the work around is that dead raw_fish dwarf statue poop/stuff won't fall through grates and things, which defeats the whole plumbing gameplay idea behind the mod. Also, it's kind of hard to tell whats a dwarf and whats a giant turd that looks like a dwarf.
I know this wasn't proof read or whatever, but it's a curious typo, due to the button presses involved.
Post by: Toady One on January 05, 2023, 01:01:39 am
Didn't have time to proofread this time! Apologies in advance, things are just that way for the time being.
...Quote from: Bumrusher
Apparently Rumrusher is "Bumrusher" now. :P
Ha ha ha, see, I really didn't proofread it! Thanks for the heads up
Post by: Immortal-D on January 05, 2023, 08:32:01 pm
There are a lot of issues & QoL considerations that came with Premium (as to be expected). How are you prioritizing what to work on and otherwise staying organized?
What was your design reason for splitting & recombining the old Masonry-Smoothing-Architect skills? (I'm still confused about Stone Cutting vs. Stone Carving).
Post by: Criperum on January 06, 2023, 10:23:50 am
2. I assume absence of health overview of fortress as it was before is just a matter of time or it was removed intentionally?
Post by: Untrustedlife on January 06, 2023, 12:01:36 pm
That got an answer pretty quick didnt it.Looks like Steam/Itch has been a massive success (Grats!). After you have established a health care fund, have you considered using some of the extra money to hire professional programming help? Either to ease your workload or help clean & optimize the code.
Knowing Toady's intent somewhat, from a recent AMA on Reddit, the proverbial pendulum appears to be swinging in the direction of the latter option.
Congrats Putnam
Post by: therahedwig on January 06, 2023, 01:40:12 pm
There was a PC gamer article/interview (https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortress-now-needs-about-100-icons-for-spilled-intestines-torn-arteries-and-bruised-tendons/) which explained the prime reason the health screen is missing is because they want to get easy to understand icons for each item, but there's 100+ icons it'll need, and they prolly also should be easy to understand. Given there's only one place where these icons are seen, it makes sense that other stuff got prioritized :)
2. I assume absence of health overview of fortress as it was before is just a matter of time or it was removed intentionally?
Post by: noirscape on January 06, 2023, 05:28:52 pm
Quote from: Toady One
This is the idea, yeah. The old code is there but it's not fit to sell - have to deal with the symlink situation or whatever issues various maintainers and etc. were troubled by, and I'm not qualified for that. Have to discuss it with Putnam, see where it goes, etc. But our plan is to get to native support for some flavor at least, however that usually ends up working for closed source steam stuff etc.
Thanks for the answer. And yeah fair enough that makes sense, dynamic linking is a pain in the neck with Linux. To my understanding (mostly just as a user of Steam on Linux), the way it usually works is that Steam distributes its own version of all the libraries you need to run a system and they make you build a version against that (they call it the Steam Runtime, basically think of it as a distro specifically for steam). Hoping you can work something out with Putnam on that.
Post by: lethosor on January 06, 2023, 09:08:22 pm
To my understanding (mostly just as a user of Steam on Linux), the way it usually works is that Steam distributes its own version of all the libraries you need to run a system and they make you build a version against that (they call it the Steam Runtime, basically think of it as a distro specifically for steam).For the Steam build, yeah, that's my understanding too. Some extra effort is involved for non-Steam builds, though.
Post by: Draconus_93_ on January 07, 2023, 06:31:11 am
as a new player what really got me into the game was the ability to play long term runs with multiple forts, and exploring the world i shaped with adventurers. I usually don't play colony sims at all, but the the vast scope of the possible interactions and the proc gen nature of the game hooked me in this time. The lack of adventure mode is however extermly painful for me, it feels like beeing keeped out the most interesting part of the game.
Since the steam release i tried several times to get into the v47 but it's like a totally different game, mostly because of the graphics. So here i am, hoping in a early beta branch, because the developement of the new controls seems to be quite a long term task.
Post by: SaladMore on January 07, 2023, 10:19:21 am
Post by: Xinvoker on January 07, 2023, 11:28:40 am
Thanks for the answers Toady.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerSetting tombs in the new interface seems actually harder than previously (making a 1x1 zone on every coffin) unless you enclose every coffin in its own room and use the multi command.
Is that something that needs more development (to have multi recognise lots of unenclosed coffins as separate burial places) or is your vision of dwarven burial to have each coffin in its own room (and therefore system is working as intended).
(Also because the tombs are zones, when you designate a memorial hall over the graveyard it says it's "overlapping" which I think reduces the value, right? Guess that's not a big deal but I do like to avoid overlapping zones...)
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437555#msg8437555
We wanted to add some kind of catacomb zone to cover this, and didn't get there. It came up quite a bit in pre-launch testing. I don't think I can easily make multi recognize semi-enclosed spaces well, although I'm assuming there's various existing work on that.
As a side note, overlapping is a huge penalty now, so we're going to want to fix the spots where it feels improper.
If overlapping has a penalty, why is multi selecting the walls by default? Most players I believe won't have double-wide walls, especially for bedrooms.
Post by: Putnam on January 07, 2023, 11:47:27 am
Thanks for the answers Toady.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerSetting tombs in the new interface seems actually harder than previously (making a 1x1 zone on every coffin) unless you enclose every coffin in its own room and use the multi command.
Is that something that needs more development (to have multi recognise lots of unenclosed coffins as separate burial places) or is your vision of dwarven burial to have each coffin in its own room (and therefore system is working as intended).
(Also because the tombs are zones, when you designate a memorial hall over the graveyard it says it's "overlapping" which I think reduces the value, right? Guess that's not a big deal but I do like to avoid overlapping zones...)
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437555#msg8437555
We wanted to add some kind of catacomb zone to cover this, and didn't get there. It came up quite a bit in pre-launch testing. I don't think I can easily make multi recognize semi-enclosed spaces well, although I'm assuming there's various existing work on that.
As a side note, overlapping is a huge penalty now, so we're going to want to fix the spots where it feels improper.
If overlapping has a penalty, why is multi selecting the walls by default? Most players I believe won't have double-wide walls, especially for bedrooms.
Overlapping doesn't count walls
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 07, 2023, 06:14:40 pm
As Toady mentioned, not everything is meant to produce an Overlapping penalty. Throwing a pasture into a dining room also doesn't for example. It's very obvious when it happens, it shows up in bright red on the interface.Thanks for the answers Toady.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerSetting tombs in the new interface seems actually harder than previously (making a 1x1 zone on every coffin) unless you enclose every coffin in its own room and use the multi command.
Is that something that needs more development (to have multi recognise lots of unenclosed coffins as separate burial places) or is your vision of dwarven burial to have each coffin in its own room (and therefore system is working as intended).
(Also because the tombs are zones, when you designate a memorial hall over the graveyard it says it's "overlapping" which I think reduces the value, right? Guess that's not a big deal but I do like to avoid overlapping zones...)
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437555#msg8437555
We wanted to add some kind of catacomb zone to cover this, and didn't get there. It came up quite a bit in pre-launch testing. I don't think I can easily make multi recognize semi-enclosed spaces well, although I'm assuming there's various existing work on that.
As a side note, overlapping is a huge penalty now, so we're going to want to fix the spots where it feels improper.
If overlapping has a penalty, why is multi selecting the walls by default? Most players I believe won't have double-wide walls, especially for bedrooms.
The example in my question was of a memorial hall over a graveyard causing a penalty, which I assume shouldn't happen (unless we're meant to make coffins and slabs as a pair for each dead dorf and have people visit the slabs rather than the coffins).
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 08, 2023, 03:57:57 am
I just found v50's world save data cannot be played in v47, nor v47's map save data to v50. Is there really no hope? At least I could just play v50's world save data in v47.Few game releases of any games are forward compatible, i.e. able to load newer saves into older versions. It can happen if only some minor bugs have been fixed, but that's definitely not the case here. Thus, there is no realistic hope to load a v0.50.x save into v 0.47.x.
The step from 0.47.x to 0.50.x is one of the few steps in DF's history where save compatibility is broken, as the differences are just too large.
Post by: jecowa on January 08, 2023, 04:21:49 am
Post by: Octopusfluff on January 08, 2023, 07:34:37 am
Quote from: Octopusfluffnow that the game is out, i can see that there's some stuff in the vanilla definitions that would allow a degree of changes, but it requires me to change my question:
will we gain the ability to add mods to existing save files?
this has become a serious obstacle with mods that aim to improve accessibility by adjusting icons in the ui, or for my use case, replacing audio elements that are highly disruptive (like that horrific REEEE REEE REEEE bird noise in grasslands which is absolutely deleterious to some of us)
making a new save file every time we discover an experiential issue that someone solved with a mod is problematic.
Graphics stuff can already be adjusted w/out worries about saves I think? I was doing it during development all the time anyway.
Sound just isn't that moddable yet, the format there isn't really complete. It doesn't know how to use non-vanilla files, doesn't have a place to put them. I wanted to get something in there so that saves could be a little bit compatible with more support later, by having any objects at all to work with.
understandable about the sound part. but my problem is that we have no mechanism for changing what mods are assigned to a world at present, so adding/removing graphics mods is currently impossible.
Post by: Drakkar on January 08, 2023, 02:19:42 pm
Do you plan to add nearest neighbor scaling in the future?
Post by: Eric Blank on January 08, 2023, 05:28:54 pm
Right now zooming in/out or scaling the UI in the premium version results in textures being blurry and it's especially visible on higher resolutions.
Do you plan to add nearest neighbor scaling in the future?
You'll want to color your questions in some shade of green so Toady knows to address them.
No idea what he's planning myself.
Post by: BlackSmokeDMax on January 08, 2023, 08:57:53 pm
Thanks for the answers Toady.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerSetting tombs in the new interface seems actually harder than previously (making a 1x1 zone on every coffin) unless you enclose every coffin in its own room and use the multi command.
Is that something that needs more development (to have multi recognise lots of unenclosed coffins as separate burial places) or is your vision of dwarven burial to have each coffin in its own room (and therefore system is working as intended).
(Also because the tombs are zones, when you designate a memorial hall over the graveyard it says it's "overlapping" which I think reduces the value, right? Guess that's not a big deal but I do like to avoid overlapping zones...)
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437555#msg8437555 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8437555#msg8437555)
We wanted to add some kind of catacomb zone to cover this, and didn't get there. It came up quite a bit in pre-launch testing. I don't think I can easily make multi recognize semi-enclosed spaces well, although I'm assuming there's various existing work on that.
As a side note, overlapping is a huge penalty now, so we're going to want to fix the spots where it feels improper.
If overlapping has a penalty, why is multi selecting the walls by default? Most players I believe won't have double-wide walls, especially for bedrooms.
Overlapping doesn't count walls
Saw a post somewhere, don't remember if it was Reddit, discord, or here. Anyway, the post seemed to indicate that engraving only has value in the direction towards the spot in which the dwarf who did the engraving was standing. So while there is no penalty for overlapping, I guess for min/maxing, it would seem double walling would be preferred to get full effect. Or maybe I read/inferred that wrong and both rooms get full wealth value, but the engraving can only be appreciated from the same side as where it was engraved from??
Post by: Bumber on January 09, 2023, 04:21:27 am
Saw a post somewhere, don't remember if it was Reddit, discord, or here. Anyway, the post seemed to indicate that engraving only has value in the direction towards the spot in which the dwarf who did the engraving was standing. So while there is no penalty for overlapping, I guess for min/maxing, it would seem double walling would be preferred to get full effect. Or maybe I read/inferred that wrong and both rooms get full wealth value, but the engraving can only be appreciated from the same side as where it was engraved from??
Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zzqlfu/steam_version_room_value_calculations_demystified/
Engraving with walls is slightly complex. in order for an engraved wall to add its engraving to the room value, the room must contain, both the wall itself, and also the location the engraver was standing when it was engraved, this gives wall engravings a sort of directionality leading to people double walling so engravings can face into a room from both sides.
That's correct. Multi selecting the walls by default is still the optimal choice either way, since no room gets the value if you don't have walls selected, there's no penalty for overlap, and it's impossible to tell after the fact which way the engraving is facing.
This does add a weird caveat that you might want to give one of the rooms part of the hallway in case the wall was engraved from there. If your hallway is 1 tile wide, you'll also want the wall across the way (and any wall adjacent to that, in case of diagonal engraving,) because the opposing room could've been engraved from outside. That way you know that room will get the value of any hallway-facing engravings instead of wasting it, and you've probably engraved the hallway floor anyway. Min/maxing!
Or you could just give up on engraving rooms and use the exploit:
Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zzqlfu/steam_version_room_value_calculations_demystified/
So you don't care about using glitches and Non-contiguous rooms. heres the way you break room value with minimal effort and resources.
1. Make a line of wall with 1 tile gap either side (if your engravers are really good this might only need to be 2-3 long)
2. Make the lines of floor either side of this wall out of the most valuable material you can (aluminum or platinum are great, steel and gold also work), and have your best engraver engrave them
3. Place doors on top of all those engraved tiles, what sort doesn't really matter, as they will be adding 10-100 value to 2-3k value floor tiles
4. For every room add the doors and the wall(this is a convenient rectangle). the wall makes the doors shareable, and the doors make the engraved floor shareable.
5. For optimal results hide this to the south east of your area, otherwise the zone icons can get rather confused
Post by: Putnam on January 09, 2023, 09:35:10 pm
Right now zooming in/out or scaling the UI in the premium version results in textures being blurry and it's especially visible on higher resolutions.
Do you plan to add nearest neighbor scaling in the future?
Yeah, I'm doing that. Different scale modes are part of the plans for the SDL2 update I'm doing.
Post by: ANickel on January 09, 2023, 10:36:00 pm
Glad to hear this is being worked on, it's quite unpleasant on a sufficiently high-resolution screen.Right now zooming in/out or scaling the UI in the premium version results in textures being blurry and it's especially visible on higher resolutions.
Do you plan to add nearest neighbor scaling in the future?
Yeah, I'm doing that. Different scale modes are part of the plans for the SDL2 update I'm doing.
Post by: Kapten on January 10, 2023, 03:42:06 am
I'm a developer by heart and profession, also I'm on the hunt for a hobby project.
I was thinking on doing somthing with Legends.
So my question is, in what way will we be able to interact with Legends data in the future?
Using dfhack in old versions you can run a exportlegends command and get an (huge) xml-file.
Will/is something similar possible in the steam release?
Currently playing on 47.05 since I have a mac computer.
Looking forward to do stupid dwarf tricks in high resolution!
Thank you for what you do !
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 10, 2023, 04:36:43 am
The native Legend XML export functionality will be restored according to Toady. Presumably it was something that had to be dropped in order to do the release in time, as it's something that isn't strictly essential.
DFHack is a community project outside of DF itself, so the additional export DFHack does on top of the native support is not something that Toady is responsible for (apart from the fact that he's not opposed to the DFHack project). Obviously, it is within Toady's power to add additional data to the native XML export (reducing the need for DFHack to export it), but that would obviously be a low priority side activity.
Moving further away from DF itself, usage of DF and DFHack XML exports has thus far been taken care of by Legends Viewer as well as various browser based versions, so you might find that niche to be somewhat crowded: cooperation with current maintainers (if they want/need cooperation) or looking for some other tools might be a better option, in which case the DFHack sphere would be a good place to start.
Post by: Vanzetti on January 10, 2023, 11:27:30 am
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 10, 2023, 12:49:21 pm
Not sure whether the issue of ice melting into some sort of weird, item-like contaminant is at all intended, either:
Quote from: Dwarf Fortress Wiki: Ice
When an ice boulder melts underground, it becomes an item named "water" that differs from regular water in such fashion: it has no liquid level, does not leave mud when it evaporates, is cyan rather than blue, and dwarves eventually remove it with a "clean" job.Melted ice boulders cannot be used as a water source.
Post by: Eric Blank on January 10, 2023, 02:19:51 pm
The ice issue is a bug, basically. Water in its various forms don't all point back to flowing water, but often to water as an item glob.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 10, 2023, 06:02:28 pm
The child ages was probably done to appease modern ideas about adulthood, to make the game "acceptable" for sale across the world and avoid insinuations of "promoting pedophilia/child labor/child soldiers" for allowing these things at ages appropriate for the setting/time period but inappropriate for modern ideas. So they're probably never going to be reset to the old 12 years of age at adulthood. A lot of people have suggested implementing a teenager/adolescent age group above 13, where they start taking on apprenticeships/jobs at their leisure and developing relationships with other teenagers. Maybe that's a possibility.As opposed to promoting "use of baby as a shield/deadly weapon", all very arbitrary. Ha ha...
The ice issue is a bug, basically. Water in its various forms don't all point back to flowing water, but often to water as an item glob.
Well, one for the society arc I guess.
Post by: Eric Blank on January 10, 2023, 06:30:22 pm
Post by: BlueManedHawk on January 11, 2023, 01:20:23 am
The child ages was probably done to appease modern ideas about adulthood, to make the game "acceptable" for sale across the world<…>
Ah, so it's mainly capitalism that's to blame for unrealism.
Post by: OddballJoe on January 11, 2023, 01:42:48 am
For what it's worth, I'm fine with this being cut in the interest of streamlining things.
Post by: FantasticDorf on January 11, 2023, 04:50:59 am
Is there any intention to bring the architecture skill/labor back? Since it's been removed, from what I can tell the requirements for buildings that needed it before are now just carpentry for wood, masonry for stone, and any metalsmith labor (besides furnace operation) for metal.
For what it's worth, I'm fine with this being cut in the interest of streamlining things.
As far as i know, its there, but its not a skill but a labor buried very deep beneath the custom labor groupings that wouldn't be worth scooping out anymore due to the limited group slots.
Post by: Su on January 11, 2023, 10:59:40 am
has there been any discussion with her yet on plans for the Big Wait?
my weird personal #1 hope is that the hardcoded materials become normal raw-defined materials, but i realise there's two decades' worth of bugs to fix first...
Post by: Waterlimon on January 11, 2023, 02:43:14 pm
If you pathfinded simultaneously from both dwarf and their goal (lets say a closed room), and formed path when these two floodfills collide (or just use the second pathfinding source to see if its an enclosed space), would that help avoid lags due to unreachable goal (since you will quickly get the result: room is a closed space)?
(also technically if using dijkstras, two small search circles colliding at edge has less area than a single big one, doubling search speed?)
See example:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Putnam on January 11, 2023, 03:36:22 pm
Is there any intention to bring the architecture skill/labor back? Since it's been removed, from what I can tell the requirements for buildings that needed it before are now just carpentry for wood, masonry for stone, and any metalsmith labor (besides furnace operation) for metal.
For what it's worth, I'm fine with this being cut in the interest of streamlining things.
As far as i know, its there, but its not a skill but a labor buried very deep beneath the custom labor groupings that wouldn't be worth scooping out anymore due to the limited group slots.
It is not there, it's been removed completely, it is no longer available as a raw token and is not in the code.
Is there any intention to bring the architecture skill/labor back? Since it's been removed, from what I can tell the requirements for buildings that needed it before are now just carpentry for wood, masonry for stone, and any metalsmith labor (besides furnace operation) for metal.
For what it's worth, I'm fine with this being cut in the interest of streamlining things.
It was replaced by those. Mason actually doesn't do anything except what building designer used to do, most of the old mason stuff is now stone carving.
Random thought regarding pathfinding algorithm:
If you pathfinded simultaneously from both dwarf and their goal (lets say a closed room), and formed path when these two floodfills collide (or just use the second pathfinding source to see if its an enclosed space), would that help avoid lags due to unreachable goal (since you will quickly get the result: room is a closed space)?
(also technically if using dijkstras, two small search circles colliding at edge has less area than a single big one, doubling search speed?)
See example:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The game already stores reachability data by assigning a number to each tile in the world. If
Code: [Select]
tile1.reachability == tile2.reachabilitythen the two tiles are reachable, otherwise they're not. The game does not do full pathfinding across the entire map to determine reachability every time a dwarf tries to pathfind to somewhere they can't reach, the game would run at something more like 0.05 FPS rather than the 6 FPS it drops to when multiple units are repeatedly repathing.Any lag you see from water is actually the game recalculating this reachability map, rather than anything water is doing in and of itself.
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 12, 2023, 05:43:13 am
The child ages was probably done to appease modern ideas about adulthood, to make the game "acceptable" for sale across the world<…>
Ah, so it's mainly capitalism that's to blame for unrealism.
"Divergent realism" at least, it might be said.
Post by: Virgil on January 13, 2023, 09:32:40 am
I feel like this is just an honest mistake, because it doesn't make sense that the hyperlinks system would leave out the ease and convenience of having ALL named historical subject matter be hyperlinked to its appropriate tab?
Would love to know if anyone else is having this problem, or if it's just me. Just to clarify again, my problem is that Masterwork Engravings and Warfare Logs are named throughout every other tab but aren't given hyperlinks except through very specific tabs, whereas other historical subject matter always has a hyperlink no matter what tab you're in.
If it's named, it has a hyperlink across all tabs, except for these two apparently?
Updated Edit: Apparently the Structures Tab is also not hyperlinked through other tabs - does this just need a lil more time to be fully implemented then? Only asking cus I love the hyperlinks system and it gets pretty grating to have to keep backtracking to figure out where certain bits of named information are hiding.
Post by: Criperum on January 13, 2023, 04:17:25 pm
Post by: MarioWizard119 on January 13, 2023, 07:42:50 pm
Hi! I’ve been a fan for a few years now and I absolutely adore this game and I want to give my congratulations on the Steam Release’s success. It warms my heart seeing 20 years worth of work be well rewarded. I’ve also gotten into the modding scene for various games, as I’m an aspiring computer science student, after all, today’s modders are tomorrow’s programmers, as Putnam can attest (congrats on that by the way, I can only imagine it was a dream come true). With the Steam release, I was inspired to get into the DF modding scene. I’m working on an overhaul mod that allows for a more automated playstyle, through setting up complex production chains (and even some real life chemistry) to get resources that would otherwise require manual player input. If any of ya’ll play modded Minecraft, think Skyblock.
A few questions for Toady and/or Putnam regarding modding capabilities
Any idea if or how I could change which “group” professions are in, or add new ones?
For example, if I wanted to move stone crafting and woodcrafting from craftsman to stoneworker and woodworker respectively
Or if I had some sort of Industrial Revolution mod that required an “Electrician” job, and I wanted to put it under engineering.
Or if I wanted to break up craftsman and farmer into separate smaller category professions (rancher, chef, cloth worker, etc)
Also, would it be possible to assign custom profession names to exclusively legendary civilian dwarves akin to the military ones? I like to give them custom nicknames, so I know not to conscript them, and I was wondering if I could use the raws to do that automatically. There has to be something that signals them to blink.
Also with music, how do the particular raw elements for the soundtracks work? Do the sound cards trigger with the same conditions as their full song counterparts? Does the game respect track length, so you could plug in full tracks of your own in place of the sound cards without worrying about overlap, or even add new ones?
I’m aware that many of these can be easily done with third party programs and scripts, but one of the things I like about DFPremium is its streamlined nature, you don’t need five windows open to play the game properly, only 2, the game and web browser of choice for the wiki. That and many of them aren’t quite ready for v50 yet.
Also, one thing I wished was there was active mods being a part of worldgen profiles. With workshop support comes that accursed green button, and all of a sudden making a world with all the mods you blindly downloaded becomes a tiny bit of a pain. I suppose I could take the various files from the objects folders from the mods, and stuff them into a single “gigamod”, but I fear there would be conflicts should things need to be loaded in a particular order.
I’m eager to explore Dwarf Fortress as a medium for creation from a modding standpoint as well as the story creator it’s always been!
Also, an addendum that doesn’t really have to do with mods but rather a question about a major change with the labors. While I am a fan of the removal of Architecture and the division of building designs to the various materials, I’m left scratching my head on the changes regarding the Stoneworker labors. Why was Mason made exclusively for building designing with stone, whereas Carpenter and Blacksmith had building designing tacked on? Why was stone detailing split up into stonecutting, which also now holds the ability to make blocks, rather than stonecarver, and engraving? Was it done to make engraving harder to level and stonecutting easier to level?
Post by: IronGremlin on January 13, 2023, 08:45:11 pm
A question to Putnam. What was your first impression on DF source code as a developer? Was it good? Was it OK? Was ot bad?
If we have questions about code and we want someone to actually answer them in a forum where the sole author of said code is reading their response, it might be advisable to ask questions that can be answered more objectively.
Tarn's an amazingly chill human being, so maybe he'd be alright with being a little irreverent about code quality, but even so, this is his life's work - it's not like code you'd work on at your job that slowly grows into a monster that nobody really owns anymore, it's one guy's baby. Best case they laugh a little and give you an answer like : "Well there are some gnarly bits but that's to be expected" - which doesn't tell you much anyway.
If we're more specific and objective, we're likely to get a better response, and we don't run the risk of giving the impression that we're digging around for mud to sling - not saying that's what you're doing, just saying it's a little funky.
Here are some examples of specific, more objective questions about the code:
- What areas seem like they are most/least optimized?
- Are the techniques Tarn is using familiar patterns, or is this mostly novel?
- Is there anything interesting that you can tell us about how the project is organized?
- How approachable was the project? Do you feel like you're getting a handle on it or do you think you might be lost for awhile?
Post by: Putnam on January 13, 2023, 09:32:36 pm
Post by: MarioWizard119 on January 14, 2023, 12:44:33 am
To force name color changes, I could probably make a bunch of appointed “noble” positions corresponding to the category professions, with matching colors.
As for appearances, I noticed colors were assigned to professions, not the other way around, and they’re assigned by individual clothing item. Like I could make woodcrafters have blue shirts but yellow pants and shoes.
Though one thing I noticed while digging is that none of the colors had any noble, soldier, or other assigned professions attached to them, therefore they use all black as a default, was this intentional? I could see no colors having soldiers defined cause you’d want them to have the armor material instead, but the nobles and assigned positions I’m not sure about.
Post by: Criperum on January 14, 2023, 03:12:43 am
Well, it's pretty well-optimized and the biggest low-hanging fruit I found was an oversight rather than some fundamental optimization issue. The rest is as you would expect from a decades-long solo project, which is to say, consistent enough that I can actually get used to it, which is, to be frank, the best one can ever ask for.Thanks, Putnam))
Post by: magistrate101 on January 14, 2023, 03:31:51 am
1. Could a toggle get added to the stocks screen that hides all the placed/constructed items? It's impossible to know how much of a metal you have left if you used some for walls/floors as they're counted together and you can only tell if it's been used by whether or not the melt button appears for a specific item.
2. Could the stockpile screen be made a bit more granular? ex: Moving clothing to their own category; replacing "usable" and "unusable" toggles with a submenu for equipment/clothe size; creating a writing category that holds sheets, quires, scrolls, book bindings, and scroll rollers (replacing the sheets category). It would be amazing if we could create and edit our own categories like we can for work details, but I understand if that's an ordeal to accomplish.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 14, 2023, 03:45:51 am
I've got two main questions:
1. Could a toggle get added to the stocks screen that hides all the placed/constructed items? It's impossible to know how much of a metal you have left if you used some for walls/floors as they're counted together and you can only tell if it's been used by whether or not the melt button appears for a specific item.
2. Could the stockpile screen be made a bit more granular? ex: Moving clothing to their own category; replacing "usable" and "unusable" toggles with a submenu for equipment/clothe size; creating a writing category that holds sheets, quires, scrolls, book bindings, and scroll rollers (replacing the sheets category). It would be amazing if we could create and edit our own categories like we can for work details, but I understand if that's an ordeal to accomplish.
Suggestions go in the Suggestions Forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Post by: Ohtar on January 15, 2023, 04:45:27 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 15, 2023, 05:24:07 pm
Are the fort mode map exports, timelapse maps, or exportable king lists ever making a comeback?From Jan 4th Future of the Fortress:
Quote
QuoteQuote from: Kadzar
What's the current priority for adding things like maps/exports for Legends mode to the Steam/itch.io release?
Quote from: Stained_Class
Will Legends exports like the xml dump, the maps .bmp exports and other infos on the world like the world gen file, be back in a future version of the Premium game?
It's up there with other stuff that used to be in the game but is missing. All important to do, and I'd expect all of it back before adventure mode is fully updated because they are all pretty straightforward, but there might be exceptions here and there if the wrinkles get nasty.
Post by: Ohtar on January 15, 2023, 05:48:51 pm
Are the fort mode map exports, timelapse maps, or exportable king lists ever making a comeback?From Jan 4th Future of the Fortress:QuoteQuoteQuote from: Kadzar
What's the current priority for adding things like maps/exports for Legends mode to the Steam/itch.io release?
Quote from: Stained_Class
Will Legends exports like the xml dump, the maps .bmp exports and other infos on the world like the world gen file, be back in a future version of the Premium game?
It's up there with other stuff that used to be in the game but is missing. All important to do, and I'd expect all of it back before adventure mode is fully updated because they are all pretty straightforward, but there might be exceptions here and there if the wrinkles get nasty.
Post by: jecowa on January 17, 2023, 05:15:54 pm
It seems like it's a bug, but the wiki and a lot of people treat it more like a feature.
Edit: Just want to clarify that the water still moves diagonally, but water that has flown diagonally won't flood higher Z levels of the fortress.
Post by: voliol on January 17, 2023, 05:18:49 pm
Is it a bug or a feature that water pressure isn't transferred diagonally?
It seems like it's a bug, but the wiki and a lot of people treat it more like a feature.
Quote from: TachytaeniusWas diagonal gaps removing water pressure an intentional feature, and if not, do you feel like you can't change it now?
I can't think of a specific reason. It's likely faster to only use four directions, but I don't think that was a concern. And it's weird, since water can flow diagonally.
Post by: jecowa on January 17, 2023, 05:23:52 pm
Post by: Urist McSadist on January 20, 2023, 01:41:57 pm
Do you have a rough idea on how the fort economies are gonna work after the economy update?
Post by: Criperum on January 21, 2023, 02:01:37 am
Post by: BlueManedHawk on January 21, 2023, 07:29:37 am
What is you vision of gods nature in M&M arc? Are they always primodial and unchanged? Or sometimes gods can be created or altered by compound believe of large enough amount of people?
Being able to kill god is a pretty common element of many different video games, so i wouldn't be surprised if it makes its way into DF.
Post by: Criperum on January 21, 2023, 08:29:40 am
Being able to kill god is a pretty common element of many different video games, so i wouldn't be surprised if it makes its way into DF.My question was mostly about people being able to create a new god by believing. Or changing god's aspects like sphere by believeing. For example a new religion with slightly different view of the god emerges and becomes dominant in the world will the corresponding god change to fit the religion?
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 21, 2023, 03:27:53 pm
As far as I understand, just about anything that's reasonable is desired to be possible.Being able to kill god is a pretty common element of many different video games, so i wouldn't be surprised if it makes its way into DF.My question was mostly about people being able to create a new god by believing. Or changing god's aspects like sphere by believeing. For example a new religion with slightly different view of the god emerges and becomes dominant in the world will the corresponding god change to fit the religion?
Real world religions have changed over time, with the pantheon members shifting as the stories about them change (and they've been adopted/taken over by new regimes, such as the Greek pantheon sort of being transformed when the Romans created their pantheon).
The Abrahamic religion branching is an ongoing example of real world religion diversification from a sort of common root ("ongoing" in that new versions pop up over time, claiming to be refinements or the "truth" over whatever they derived from, usually with the "parent" outright rejecting these "children" as just new heretic sects).
In a world where gods actually exist and have agency there may be a need for gods to be able to split (e.g. Zeus spawning a Jupiter that may exist in parallel if the source pantheon remains active in some parts of the world).
The worshiper base affecting the gods is definitely a reasonable case that's been present in fiction.
Post by: Gremie on January 21, 2023, 04:35:29 pm
Have you ever considered adding something like this?
with spells, gods curses, extreme physical or physiological trauma
Are there particular problems that could prevent something like this being added?
Post by: voliol on January 22, 2023, 03:00:36 am
I've not heard of any way for a dwarf to completely forget who they are, causing a natural or re-rolled personality???
Have you ever considered adding something like this?
with spells, gods curses, extreme physical or physiological trauma
Are there particular problems that could prevent something like this being added?
Use lime green text if you want Toady to read it. This also reads much like a suggestion so consiser putting it on the suggestions board if you can't find it there already.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 22, 2023, 02:24:31 pm
Post by: Bumber on January 22, 2023, 08:44:27 pm
Any chance that some of the money coming in will be spent on digital certificates for bay12games.com and bay12forums.com, and setting them up to use https?
I think it's more about time than money. The forum software is in need of an update, but game development has taken priority thus far, especially with Steam release.
Post by: Telgin on January 22, 2023, 09:00:53 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 23, 2023, 01:31:44 am
Yeah, you can get SSL certificates for free these days even, so money can't be the problem.
As far as I know, you’ve always been able to generate your own certificates for free. The problem is getting those certificates signed by a CA whose root certificate is bundled with most browsers/operating systems.
I know of letsencrypt.org, at least, but I was under the impression that it was only for open source projects (which DF definitely doesn’t qualify as). Also, even if DF were to qualify, is the required root certificate bundled with the majority of software?
Do you know of any others, besides letsencrypt?
Post by: lethosor on January 23, 2023, 11:04:27 am
Post by: Kyo1995 on January 23, 2023, 10:00:11 pm
Dwarf behaviour is very complex and interesting, but there's one point where it falls flat the most, in my opinion: the way civilians handle threats such as invasions and megabeasts feels very robot-like. How feasible would it be to develop a more "organic" threat response? i. e., the first dwarf to see a threat screams very loudly or something like that, and the citizens in a large area either run to their rooms and lock the doors if they're cowardly, while the braver ones grab the nearest improvised weapons, form a group and go investigate the source of the scream. That and walking around armed and doing voluntary civilian drills after the fortress has been attacked a few times recently would make their behaviour feel much more organic. Can we expect anything like that before or during army & siege update?
Such a behaviour would incentivize you to spread around weapon racks on the fortress, which would be a plus, considering there are few gameplay reasons to use them currently.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 23, 2023, 10:42:53 pm
LetsEncrypt has no such requirements. https://letsencrypt.org/docs/faq/
Interesting. I must say that I am pleasantly surprised. After reading that page (and a few others on that site), I’d say that I’d highly recommend that Toady One consider obtaining certificates from them.
Post by: onura46 on January 24, 2023, 01:04:07 am
- Are cavern invader numbers pulled from local (site) populations like wild animals, whole world pops, or created ex nihilo? There are numbers that appear in detailed Legends exports which I assume sum of the number of "lizard men", for instance, in the entire world. But are there regional subdivisions beyond that, like one group that lives in the mountains and one group in the hills? An amount just for our site maybe?
- I guess the real question between the lines here is: if I choose to
genocidally exterminatepacify all the angry natives, could I cause them to go extinct and/or actually stop invasions? - Besides that, any chance for brokering peace with the cavern invaders in the future? Maybe we could offer them tribute? I could sympathize if they didn't want that, though!
Post by: voliol on January 24, 2023, 06:59:49 am
-snip-
Welcome to the forums, Kyo!
Your questions look very much like suggestions, so try keeping them on the Suggestions Board. This is actually for the sake of the suggestion, since Toady keeps track of them over there, but the same cannot be said of this thread.
Of course, it can be validating to get an answer from Toady, and the line between suggestion and question about the future is not always clear. Consequently, many half-suggestion, half-questions still slip in. Many of these are from new forumites, but we veterans are also guilty from time to time. That said, a rule of thumb I try to use myself is this: if you're making a case for it, it's a suggestion.
Finally, text to Toady should be lime green. :)
Post by: Criperum on January 24, 2023, 12:45:55 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on January 24, 2023, 04:29:51 pm
But I feel like I do recall something being done with minecarts, like a bug fix or something, but I can't remember what.
Post by: NPK on January 24, 2023, 05:05:49 pm
Also, do you have a sort of philosophy when it comes to modeling these historical-type events, in terms of how important the involved actors' personalities and ethics should be, or if things like going to war ought to be based on more practical considerations like likelihood of success and some sort of need or goal to achieve? Or should things be randomized and up to interpretation by the player?
Post by: myk on January 24, 2023, 11:31:05 pm
For context, there have been several forum threads on this topic but no firm answers:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160130.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=95225.0
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 25, 2023, 12:14:19 am
Outside of a strange mood, Dwarves cannot make blunt weapons out of otherwise wonderfully dense gold, platinum, or lead. Is this a game design decision?Not sure how it would not be a game design decision. There are metals you can make armor and weapons out of and ones that you can not. That didn't accidentally happen.
For context, there have been several forum threads on this topic but no firm answers:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160130.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=95225.0
Is this simply a suggestion that they should be?
Post by: Kyo1995 on January 25, 2023, 07:33:14 am
-snip-
Welcome to the forums, Kyo!
Your questions look very much like suggestions, so try keeping them on the Suggestions Board. This is actually for the sake of the suggestion, since Toady keeps track of them over there, but the same cannot be said of this thread.
Of course, it can be validating to get an answer from Toady, and the line between suggestion and question about the future is not always clear. Consequently, many half-suggestion, half-questions still slip in. Many of these are from new forumites, but we veterans are also guilty from time to time. That said, a rule of thumb I try to use myself is this: if you're making a case for it, it's a suggestion.
Finally, text to Toady should be lime green. :)
Thank you for the heads up! I edited my question for clarity.
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 25, 2023, 11:16:24 am
What is you vision of gods nature in M&M arc? Are they always primodial and unchanged? Or sometimes gods can be created or altered by compound believe of large enough amount of people?
As to the second question, a wild guess is pretty wild, but...it's most likely some amount of both?
Post by: myk on January 25, 2023, 07:39:58 pm
Not sure how it would not be a game design decision. There are metals you can make armor and weapons out of and ones that you can not. That didn't accidentally happen.
Is this simply a suggestion that they should be?
Some things are just the way they are because of oversight. This particular question came up on the DFHack discord about whether options for platinum weapons should be offered to the player by default or if that constituted circumventing a game design choice.
Post by: jecowa on January 25, 2023, 08:54:06 pm
Post by: Pillbo on January 25, 2023, 09:23:19 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on January 26, 2023, 09:01:18 pm
Post by: TBeholder on January 26, 2023, 10:24:47 pm
It's likely a means of keeping the AI from making bad choices on materials used for weapons and armor.So, while this does help to filter out large sets of bad options, it’s situational (relies on assumptions that are not always true), crude (does not discern daggers from mauls),and still insufficient.
...
but DF is supposed to be simulating a medieval world where international trade can make materials available even if a particular civ or site doesn't have access to them on their own.
...
But the AI is too stupid/hasn't been programmed to ignore inferior materials choices for military equipment. They still use copper, for instance, when they have access to iron, bronze or steel in sufficient quantities to outfit their forces. We could remove copper too, but that takes away yet another option from players.
It would work better with more functional categories (e.g. tags for suitability as bludgeon, blade, handle or spring) and somewhat randomized optimization criteria (performance/cost/weight).
Post by: Eric Blank on January 26, 2023, 10:36:18 pm
So it's one of those questions where the answer is "sounds good, maybe we'll get to it in the army arc"
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 26, 2023, 10:37:28 pm
Brilliant ideas all round. And lost to time by the time a weapon materials rewrite occurs because they were posted to Future of the Fortress thread for some reason. Oh well.It's likely a means of keeping the AI from making bad choices on materials used for weapons and armor.So, while this does help to filter out large sets of bad options, it’s situational (relies on assumptions that are not always true), crude (does not discern daggers from mauls),and still insufficient.
...
but DF is supposed to be simulating a medieval world where international trade can make materials available even if a particular civ or site doesn't have access to them on their own.
...
But the AI is too stupid/hasn't been programmed to ignore inferior materials choices for military equipment. They still use copper, for instance, when they have access to iron, bronze or steel in sufficient quantities to outfit their forces. We could remove copper too, but that takes away yet another option from players.
It would work better with more functional categories (e.g. tags for suitability as bludgeon, blade, handle or spring) and somewhat randomized optimization criteria (performance/cost/weight).
Post by: PK1312 on January 27, 2023, 03:21:47 pm
LetsEncrypt has no such requirements. https://letsencrypt.org/docs/faq/
Interesting. I must say that I am pleasantly surprised. After reading that page (and a few others on that site), I’d say that I’d highly recommend that Toady One consider obtaining certificates from them.
I actually came to this thread to ask why the forums don't have a cert yet considering you can set one up with LetsEncrypt for free in like under 5 minutes lol. Please folks, do it! Then I won't have to click through an annoying warning every time I visit the forums!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 28, 2023, 02:12:54 am
The switch from child to adult is very sudden regardless of the age it happens at, how would you like to see the transition work in some far off future version of the game where all is possible?
(Yeah I know there are threads where people randomly guess at the reasons, but I'm interested in the actual thinking there. 18 is kind of unprecedented for a "medieval" type game regardless of modern sensibilities).
Post by: BlueManedHawk on January 28, 2023, 11:47:32 am
<snip/>
I actually came to this thread to ask why the forums don't have a cert yet considering you can set one up with LetsEncrypt for free in like under 5 minutes lol. Please folks, do it! Then I won't have to click through an annoying warning every time I visit the forums!
You can probably in your browser set an exception in your browser for this particular site in your browser.
Post by: Fell on January 30, 2023, 06:19:47 am
Post by: Putnam on January 30, 2023, 01:16:42 pm
Is it a possibility to bring back the [PRINT_MODE:TEXT] text mode? I loved to play 47.05 on multiple devices via SSH.
If all goes well, should be available in at least the Linux version.
Post by: Kiloku on January 30, 2023, 02:58:19 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 30, 2023, 04:59:29 pm
In older versions, it was possible to secede from your civ by rejecting the offer to become a barony. This apparently has been changed to only delay the question until the next year without changing political relations. Will the option to secede come back?It's never been possible to secede from your civ. At least not since 2014 when the outside world was turned on. Maybe a thing before that? Not sure.
Post by: Kiloku on January 30, 2023, 05:37:37 pm
<snip>It's never been possible to secede from your civ. At least not since 2014 when the outside world was turned on. Maybe a thing before that? Not sure.
I was uncertain so I googled far and wide before asking, and my source for that was Toady himself! Though to be more specific, he said you can "sort of" secede.
Source http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100851.msg5140546#msg5140546
Quote from: ToadyOne, in 2014
Quote from: Dirst, in 2014Will a fortress be able to secede from its parent civilization? Would this be under player control, or need to result from a factional conflict?
You can sort of do that when you refuse to become a barony, but there still aren't repercussions. We won't get into that until start scenarios, outside settlements and your own map armies start coming into play.
Post by: Lexyvil on January 30, 2023, 05:55:21 pm
Regarding stairs, I realized that we can no longer build an Up-Stair directly on the same tile as a carved Up/Down stair, to block entry from lower elevations. Was that an intentional change?
Are there also plans to re-implement the ability to build 1 elevation stairs--instead of spanning at minimum 2 elevations--for situations like these where we only want one stair?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on January 30, 2023, 06:16:57 pm
Right "sort of". But you still get migrants from your civilization and their trade caravans, and go to war when your civ goes to war, and when you retire, the site will be treated exactly like any other member of the civilization. So, "sort of but not really at all" is the current situation.<snip>It's never been possible to secede from your civ. At least not since 2014 when the outside world was turned on. Maybe a thing before that? Not sure.
I was uncertain so I googled far and wide before asking, and my source for that was Toady himself! Though to be more specific, he said you can "sort of" secede.
Source http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100851.msg5140546#msg5140546Quote from: ToadyOne, in 2014Quote from: Dirst, in 2014Will a fortress be able to secede from its parent civilization? Would this be under player control, or need to result from a factional conflict?
You can sort of do that when you refuse to become a barony, but there still aren't repercussions. We won't get into that until start scenarios, outside settlements and your own map armies start coming into play.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 02, 2023, 12:12:35 am
Wooo!!! Ha ha. Congratulations, very well deserved. :)
Post by: voliol on February 02, 2023, 05:36:30 am
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on February 02, 2023, 12:34:23 pm
Post by: LASD on February 02, 2023, 03:30:56 pm
DF has been transformational for many and an inspiration for countless players and developers alike. I'm proud to have been a small part of the journey to this point.
Massive congratulations! Excited to see the game get even better!
Post by: Toady One on February 02, 2023, 04:55:25 pm
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
1.) What in Sam Hill is an ANY_SOAP_MATERIAL token?
"A token used in defining custom reactions which produce soap goods, armor & weapons." - Would a forbidden beast made of FILTH_Y be weak to bolts made out of soap?
2.) Speaking of filth, will the GENERATES_MIASMA token ever be changed so as to permit materials other than rotting meat to produce miasma?
I've been trying to get a poop mod working for awhile, and the self-interaction logic is complicated enough as it is, (getting the self_interaction delay triggers just right, getting the dwarves to be variable levels of poop shy, having the dwarves physically explode from ruptured organs due to their own poop shyness, getting them dwarves not to poop in the hallways, and getting the dwarves to be consistent in whether they decide to drop their deuce inside of the fort's drinking well or not.) and just having an actual on-point material that functions correctly would be rad. Right now, I have to use RAW_FISH made out of DWARF?. The RAW_FISH looks like an actual dwarf, which then rots into an entire dead dwarf, which then rots again and produces miasma. It's neat, since the dwarves won't actually clean it up on their own for some reason, and thus it requires player micro.
The problem with the work around is that dead raw_fish dwarf statue poop/stuff won't fall through grates and things, which defeats the whole plumbing gameplay idea behind the mod. Also, it's kind of hard to tell whats a dwarf and whats a giant turd that looks like a dwarf.
Ha ha, I don't have any problem expanding how tokens work, though I'm not sure when it'll come up.
Quote from: Immortal-D
There are a lot of issues & QoL considerations that came with Premium (as to be expected). How are you prioritizing what to work on and otherwise staying organized?
What was your design reason for splitting & recombining the old Masonry-Smoothing-Architect skills? (I'm still confused about Stone Cutting vs. Stone Carving).
Just have to put it all in a list and order the list based on what seems the most urgent or annoying, same as ever. I'm not sure what more detail I could use to describe it. Obviously the save corruption stuff is the worst, crashes and things that cause loss of all progress. Then it just depends on which systems feel the most broken or where changes would help access more of the game for more people.
I really didn't like the mason name being applied to so many things that aren't masonry. That has bothered me for a long time, and this seemed like a good opportunity to change it, with the save compat break.
Quote from: Criperum
1. How functional prostetics will be in non magical world? Just a pegleg and a hook or dwarven SCIENCE is able to provide somebetter solutions. If so then how anout non magical power armor?
2. I assume absence of health overview of fortress as it was before is just a matter of time or it was removed intentionally?
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8443318#msg8443318
1. We usually go with the 1400s cutoff for non-magical stuff, and everything up to then would be fair. So stuff like electricity or nuclear-powered mech suits or whatever wouldn't really be a vanilla thing.
2. therahedwig's answer covers this - just needs lots of art or something to make it work.
Quote from: Draconus_93_
it would be possible to enable an earlier adventure mode release, maybe through a beta branch, even whith the old keyboard based controls/menus?
as a new player what really got me into the game was the ability to play long term runs with multiple forts, and exploring the world i shaped with adventurers. I usually don't play colony sims at all, but the the vast scope of the possible interactions and the proc gen nature of the game hooked me in this time. The lack of adventure mode is however extermly painful for me, it feels like beeing keeped out the most interesting part of the game.
Since the steam release i tried several times to get into the v47 but it's like a totally different game, mostly because of the graphics. So here i am, hoping in a early beta branch, because the developement of the new controls seems to be quite a long term task.
I don't think this is likely. It doesn't work as-is, unplayable for a variety of reasons, and getting some partially working thing up will just be lost labor. Once we get the SDL2 stuff up on an experimental branch, which shouldn't be too long from now, we will have that infrastructure though, so I can't rule it out either, at some point down the line.
Quote from: Drakkar
Right now zooming in/out or scaling the UI in the premium version results in textures being blurry and it's especially visible on higher resolutions.
Do you plan to add nearest neighbor scaling in the future?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8444772#msg8444772
Quote from: Kapten
So my question is, in what way will we be able to interact with Legends data in the future?
Using dfhack in old versions you can run a exportlegends command and get an (huge) xml-file.
Will/is something similar possible in the steam release?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8444895#msg8444895
Yeah, PatrikLundell's correct, this is just a button that needs to be added, along with a progress bar. I think Putnam already did a pass on this, in some multithreaded way that either did or didn't work, I don't recall. It's something we'll get in a patch soon, same xml format as before I imagine.
Quote from: Vanzetti
Remains of ancient civilizations are a common fantasy trope. Are there any plans to implement it in DF? Technically, this could be as easy as generating a random civ, and having all of its members die mysteriously before year 1, leaving behind only ruins. It would be something conceptually similar to how vaults work currently, but with a different flavor. Of course, the key here is to have the ruins be interesting enough to visit.
Yeah, making them interesting is the tricky part, which is why I'd prefer to have existing civs during the regular generation get obliterated/die/fall sometimes instead. Then you'd have their whole normal history to work with etc., built in the most reliable and consistent way. This probably requires some of the entity rewrite stuff, since the people of fallen civs won't generally all be dead, but just remerged into new formulations while the ruins still stand.
Quote
Quote from: Silverwing235I trust the bumping up (or down as it may be) of all entity-having creatures' (dwarves, elves, humans at least) CHILD tags to 18 is just temporary? Entirely too heavy post-industrial legislation vibes over here as it is, you see.Quote from: Shonai_DwellerWhat was the reason the age of adulthood for all races was raised from 12 to 18 in 50.01?
The switch from child to adult is very sudden regardless of the age it happens at, how would you like to see the transition work in some far off future version of the game where all is possible?
(Yeah I know there are threads where people randomly guess at the reasons, but I'm interested in the actual thinking there. 18 is kind of unprecedented for a "medieval" type game regardless of modern sensibilities).
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8445053#msg8445053
We wanted to get to an apprentice system eventually, tied to both the guild stuff and the workshop profiles, etc., that will capture some more of the distinctions.
The 12->18 thing was from having a graphical game where people were becoming lovers when they became adults. The old system was abstractly chosen for design purposes, in the same way that the Sims would have people change age groups after 3 days or whatever. It wasn't about accurate depiction of ancient life - plenty of that goes on these days as well, and ancient/medieval people also generally married later than is often believed, if I recollect. Abstractly, though, about a decade is a nice fort duration for generations. Unfortunately it overlaps with reality too much, and it needed to be changed.
Generally speaking, as with the Sims etc., I'd be happy to simulate several stages of childhood, especially as it relates to personality growth and changes, and also advancing the new chores system into something more like the apprenticeships and beyond.
Quote from: OddballJoe
Is there any intention to bring the architecture skill/labor back? Since it's been removed, from what I can tell the requirements for buildings that needed it before are now just carpentry for wood, masonry for stone, and any metalsmith labor (besides furnace operation) for metal.
For what it's worth, I'm fine with this being cut in the interest of streamlining things.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8445248#msg8445248
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8445371#msg8445371
It was a weird skill that only applied in a few weird circumstances, so I was happy enough to see it go. If it comes back it'll have to be a more worthy context, but it's a little hard in a game where everything is so modular. But it could be done, with somebody overseeing an overall declared construction zone or something, for a pre-declared structure or wtvr. Ways to make it work again.
Quote from: Su
how much autonomy does putnam have when deciding what to work on?
has there been any discussion with her yet on plans for the Big Wait?
It's been pretty complete autonomy so far, ha ha, since she's been working on the ports and serious bugs. Once that stuff is done, we'll need to be more organized. It has been easy to put it off so far though, since there are so many things sitting there to be worked on.
Quote from: Waterlimon
If you pathfinded simultaneously from both dwarf and their goal (lets say a closed room), and formed path when these two floodfills collide (or just use the second pathfinding source to see if its an enclosed space), would that help avoid lags due to unreachable goal (since you will quickly get the result: room is a closed space)?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8445371#msg8445371
Quote from: Virgil
I noticed while looking into Legends Mode that certain hyperlinks seem oddly left out? Masterwork Engravings for example, are given names in every other tab, but ONLY allowed to be opened up in the Art Tab. Meanwhile War Logs describing the details of battles including how many combatants and of what type, as well as the aesthetic "who outwitted who" description don't even get a tab of their own, and have to be manually scrolled through the Chronicles By Age Tab to find their appropriate links.
I feel like this is just an honest mistake, because it doesn't make sense that the hyperlinks system would leave out the ease and convenience of having ALL named historical subject matter be hyperlinked to its appropriate tab?
Would love to know if anyone else is having this problem, or if it's just me. Just to clarify again, my problem is that Masterwork Engravings and Warfare Logs are named throughout every other tab but aren't given hyperlinks except through very specific tabs, whereas other historical subject matter always has a hyperlink no matter what tab you're in.
If it's named, it has a hyperlink across all tabs, except for these two apparently?
Updated Edit: Apparently the Structures Tab is also not hyperlinked through other tabs - does this just need a lil more time to be fully implemented then? Only asking cus I love the hyperlinks system and it gets pretty grating to have to keep backtracking to figure out where certain bits of named information are hiding.
Not so much a mistake as that we didn't have the time to finish them all, generally, when it comes to available hyperlinks. It really is just a time question and we want to get them all up and working.
Quote from: Criperum
A question to Putnam. What was your first impression on DF source code as a developer? Was it good? Was it OK? Was ot bad?
IronGremlin: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8446062#msg8446062
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8446071#msg8446071
Quote from: MarioWizard119
A few questions for Toady and/or Putnam regarding modding capabilities
Any idea if or how I could change which “group” professions are in, or add new ones?
For example, if I wanted to move stone crafting and woodcrafting from craftsman to stoneworker and woodworker respectively
Or if I had some sort of Industrial Revolution mod that required an “Electrician” job, and I wanted to put it under engineering.
Or if I wanted to break up craftsman and farmer into separate smaller category professions (rancher, chef, cloth worker, etc)
Also, would it be possible to assign custom profession names to exclusively legendary civilian dwarves akin to the military ones? I like to give them custom nicknames, so I know not to conscript them, and I was wondering if I could use the raws to do that automatically. There has to be something that signals them to blink.
Also with music, how do the particular raw elements for the soundtracks work? Do the sound cards trigger with the same conditions as their full song counterparts? Does the game respect track length, so you could plug in full tracks of your own in place of the sound cards without worrying about overlap, or even add new ones?
--
Well, it seems from digging deeper I’ve answered a few of my own questions.
To force name color changes, I could probably make a bunch of appointed “noble” positions corresponding to the category professions, with matching colors.
As for appearances, I noticed colors were assigned to professions, not the other way around, and they’re assigned by individual clothing item. Like I could make woodcrafters have blue shirts but yellow pants and shoes.
Though one thing I noticed while digging is that none of the colors had any noble, soldier, or other assigned professions attached to them, therefore they use all black as a default, was this intentional? I could see no colors having soldiers defined cause you’d want them to have the armor material instead, but the nobles and assigned positions I’m not sure about.
The professions cannot currently be regrouped, and you can't add new ones or skills or anything. We just have the 10 placeholderish modding skills at this point. More is possible obviously. Specifics will work better on the suggestion board.
It's not really much of a raw format currently. I just wanted to get something in there to avoid a save compatibility break later. The cards associated to tracks trigger with those tracks, yeah. The game doesn't know track length in advance or otherwise use it, though it might act weird if replacement tracks are really short.
Quote from: magistrate101
1. Could a toggle get added to the stocks screen that hides all the placed/constructed items? It's impossible to know how much of a metal you have left if you used some for walls/floors as they're counted together and you can only tell if it's been used by whether or not the melt button appears for a specific item.
2. Could the stockpile screen be made a bit more granular? ex: Moving clothing to their own category; replacing "usable" and "unusable" toggles with a submenu for equipment/clothe size; creating a writing category that holds sheets, quires, scrolls, book bindings, and scroll rollers (replacing the sheets category). It would be amazing if we could create and edit our own categories like we can for work details, but I understand if that's an ordeal to accomplish.
It all seems reasonable to me. We're working on quality of life stuff for the next while after the arena, so people should make their suggestions in the forum.
Quote from: Ohtar
Are the fort mode map exports, timelapse maps, or exportable king lists ever making a comeback?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8446660#msg8446660
Quote from: jecowa
Is it a bug or a feature that water pressure isn't transferred diagonally?
It seems like it's a bug, but the wiki and a lot of people treat it more like a feature.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8447472#msg8447472
Quote from: Urist McSadist
Do you have a rough idea on how the fort economies are gonna work after the economy update?
Nope! That is a long way off. Gods will be able to curse goods or explode them or something by then. But we have a long list of things we'd like to do, like negotiating more specific long term trade deals, fairs, making rarity of goods matter (which completely screws up the current embark system), sending out trade caravans, making all the production stuff from worldgen happen during play throughout the world (which impacts everything), etc.
Quote from: Criperum
What is you vision of gods nature in M&M arc? Are they always primodial and unchanged? Or sometimes gods can be created or altered by compound believe of large enough amount of people?
-
My question was mostly about people being able to create a new god by believing. Or changing god's aspects like sphere by believeing. For example a new religion with slightly different view of the god emerges and becomes dominant in the world will the corresponding god change to fit the religion?
BlueManedHawk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8448752#msg8448752
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8448845#msg8448845
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449895#msg8449895
It's a common enough thing in speculative fiction that I suppose it should be supported, but the gods-through-believing thing has always seemed sort of anachronistic to me (if that's a vaguely right word for such a thing). Obviously real-world religions have changed/emerged as PatrikLundell went over for example, but the idea of the god itself mutating (rather than interpretations changing) feels more modern, though I have no idea really.
Quote from: Gremie
I've not heard of any way for a dwarf to completely forget who they are, causing a natural or re-rolled personality???
Have you ever considered adding something like this?
with spells, gods curses, extreme physical or physiological trauma
Are there particular problems that could prevent something like this being added?
It hasn't come up! I don't think it would be hard to add, but it would need to come up. We've only done the gradual and partial personality changes from memories.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Any chance that some of the money coming in will be spent on digital certificates for bay12games.com and bay12forums.com, and setting them up to use https?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449138#msg8449138
Telgin: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449142#msg8449142
A_Curious_Cat (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449190#msg8449190
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449294#msg8449294
A_Curious_Cat (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449428#msg8449428
PK1312: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8450387#msg8450387
Last time I tried it there was some your-whole-server-needs-to-be-updated thing that made it not possible with the time I had. I could try this again when I have a moment and get something more specific to work with.
Quote from: Kyo1995
Dwarf behaviour is very complex and interesting, but there's one point where it falls flat the most, in my opinion: the way civilians handle threats such as invasions and megabeasts feels very robot-like. How feasible would it be to develop a more "organic" threat response? i. e., the first dwarf to see a threat screams very loudly or something like that, and the citizens in a large area either run to their rooms and lock the doors if they're cowardly, while the braver ones grab the nearest improvised weapons, form a group and go investigate the source of the scream. That and walking around armed and doing voluntary civilian drills after the fortress has been attacked a few times recently would make their behaviour feel much more organic. Can we expect anything like that before or during army & siege update?
For the siege update, we're going to focus on the basic stuff first, like the sieges not being a threat at all if you use some minor exploits, or even just accidentally not being a threat.
Something like you describe would essentially require all sieges to start in ambush mode, which feels like it might be a bit off, in terms of it being dramatic. Even with ambush sieges, if we have dwarves only know about things they've seen individually, then you wouldn't really be able to order squads at all? It just seems like it wouldn't work, unless the game has no player whatsoever. Which is fine, for a 100% sim, but not what the game has been up to this point.
Quote from: onura46
Thank you for introducing so much joy into the world with your games. Hope you're happy and healthy! <3 I usually lurk, but had to join and ask:
1. Are cavern invader numbers pulled from local (site) populations like wild animals, whole world pops, or created ex nihilo? There are numbers that appear in detailed Legends exports which I assume sum of the number of "lizard men", for instance, in the entire world. But are there regional subdivisions beyond that, like one group that lives in the mountains and one group in the hills? An amount just for our site maybe?
2. I guess the real question between the lines here is: if I choose to genocidally exterminate pacify all the angry natives, could I cause them to go extinct and/or actually stop invasions?
3. Besides that, any chance for brokering peace with the cavern invaders in the future? Maybe we could offer them tribute? I could sympathize if they didn't want that, though!
1+2. It appears not to care about pops here, aside from using the local layer-linked civ creature type properly. I think it does have the population information somewhere, but isn't using it.
3. It is pretty extreme right now, especially since I don't thiiiiink indoor irritation dies down the same way outdoor irritation does.
Quote from: Criperum
Did something change in how minecarts work? Looks like some of the old tricks don't work anymore. FOr example minecarts are no longer generate mist when slide over the water on high speed
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449691#msg8449691
I don't recall changing them at all, or even being in that code area. We should probably add the ability to do vehicles and tracks to the arena ha ha.
Quote from: NPK
I've think I've noticed that wars are more common and long-lasting once one begins playing in the world (as opposed to during world gen). I assume that probably most activities occur differently, or at different rates, in world gen vs after the world has been active. I was wondering how these world events are handled mechanically in the two different modes? Like, is the code for the various types of events similar in both phases or did each event have to be extensively rewritten for world activation? Any notable examples?
Also, do you have a sort of philosophy when it comes to modeling these historical-type events, in terms of how important the involved actors' personalities and ethics should be, or if things like going to war ought to be based on more practical considerations like likelihood of success and some sort of need or goal to achieve? Or should things be randomized and up to interpretation by the player?
They work pretty differently from each other as I recollect. I'm not sure there's even any peace-making aside from anything that happens in your fortress. Everything is mechanically different, since there's very little teleportation since the world activation many years ago, and it just flows out from there.
When it is doing these things, it uses all of those things in a giant mush, randomly in various formulas. Army size comparisons matter, but the level of hostility and leader personalities also matter. Since most wars won't involve the player, it's best if it makes some kind of sense rather than being tuned for a given playthrough, although will still do that currently with triggers etc.
Quote from: myk
Outside of a strange mood, Dwarves cannot make blunt weapons out of otherwise wonderfully dense platinum. Is this a game design decision?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449790#msg8449790
myk (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449997#msg8449997
jecowa: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8450011#msg8450011
Pillbo: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8450016#msg8450016
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8450220#msg8450220
TBeholder: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8450241#msg8450241
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8450243#msg8450243
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8450244#msg8450244
I think the discussion captured what happened here more or less. I don't have a problem with player dwarves making whatever they want out of whatever, even if it's ridiculous, as long as the item's ridiculousness shines through properly as it deforms and such. But it shouldn't impact AI decision-making if it's ridiculous. And I probably just took an easy road way back when, with whatever variables I had at the time.
Quote from: Fell
Is it a possibility to bring back the [PRINT_MODE:TEXT] text mode? I loved to play 47.05 on multiple devices via SSH.
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8451015#msg8451015
Quote from: Kiloku
In older versions, it was possible to secede from your civ by rejecting the offer to become a barony. This apparently has been changed to only delay the question until the next year without changing political relations. Will the option to secede come back?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8451054#msg8451054
Kiloku (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8451060#msg8451060
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8451070#msg8451070
I don't recall changing it but I wouldn't be surprised if it works differently since we had to revamp all the diplomacy code to make the new alerts work. We're not really tackling the meat of this option until we get to embark scenario stuff most likely, though the army/siege stuff is a wildcard vaguely in this direction.
Quote from: Lexyvil
Regarding stairs, I realized that we can no longer build an Up-Stair directly on the same tile as a carved Up/Down stair, to block entry from lower elevations. Was that an intentional change?
Are there also plans to re-implement the ability to build 1 elevation stairs--instead of spanning at minimum 2 elevations--for situations like these where we only want one stair?
It was an intentional change in the sense that we wanted stairs to not be three different tiles that new people have to understand and keep track of. It was not an intentional change in the sense that we were aware of the issue with not allowing upstairs and just didn't have time to get to it, and are planning to add some sort of system to address it. I'm not sure what that will look like, since I don't want the three separate tiles to be front and center. It would be best for the existing construction/designation command to just play nice with each other and allow you to build where you want, while also still requiring multi-level placement or something (and just linking in to existing stuff, combining designations/constructions, etc.)
Post by: Inarius on February 02, 2023, 05:38:40 pm
Post by: Putnam on February 02, 2023, 06:05:03 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on February 02, 2023, 10:59:52 pm
Quote from: CriperumDid something change in how minecarts work? Looks like some of the old tricks don't work anymore. FOr example minecarts are no longer generate mist when slide over the water on high speed
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8449691#msg8449691
I don't recall changing them at all, or even being in that code area. We should probably add the ability to do vehicles and tracks to the arena ha ha.
If you were to take this route and change tiles on the fly in the arena, you might as well let us place traps, buildings, workshops etc for test purposes as well, maybe make a creature controlled in a "fort mode" way and perform reactions at workshops! Would make testing all sorts of mods a lot easier if we didn't have to generate a world and start a fort to get access to workshops to test reactions.
(No not seriously I know that would be way too difficult.)
Post by: JuniperAndFriends on February 03, 2023, 03:25:03 am
Now that I think of it, have there been any plans to add something along the same vein as Willow and Light by Kevin McLeod? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwluv_XKCfM In my personal view, this is the song that embodies the mystique of watching over the world as it comes into being before selecting a site that will become your dwarves' new home, and if I had to pick a song I miss the most from SoundSense, it would have to be this one. Now obviously, the real world is going to get in the way now that DF has gone premium, but I figured I'd put this out there.
and I know I've just asked for a lot, but speaking of all this, would there be a way to turn specific individual music tracks on or off? Sometimes I get sick of hearing one certain track or another, but only on that day. A music mod for the other things might be fine, but a music mod to remove existing tracks might be overkill, since that means the entire timeline now lacks that music track forever. If it's not possible, could it be possible to have a player-adjustable weighting system to reduce the frequency of certain tracks while boosting the likelihood of others? That might be enough, because I do remember how increasing the length between tracks did actually help me quite a lot in that regard, but I still kinda get frustrated at how frequently Strange Moods and Craftsdwarfship are always coming up all the freaking time, but I would love to hear Strike The Earth quite a bit more.
Anyway, thank you for everything, and I'm sorry my questions got a bit rambly and lengthy.
Post by: voliol on February 03, 2023, 05:02:43 am
Welcome to the forums, JuniperAndFriends! Questions to Toady should be in lime green (like this:
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]in lime green[/color]), though parts of yours could probably be split off to the Suggestions board (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0). :)
Post by: JuniperAndFriends on February 03, 2023, 05:38:11 am
Post by: KristoffPL on February 05, 2023, 02:30:56 pm
I've got a mishmash of different questions:
1. Will relationships/marriages between different races ever be added into the game (i.e. human-elf, dwarf-elf, elf-dwarf, human-dwarf)?
1b. If yes, in-line with common fantasy tropes, would you consider ever adding half-elves, half-dwarves etc. as offspring of such marriages?
2. I remember seeing transgender/non-binary pops being mentioned a few years back somewhere as something that was planned. Is this still somewhere in the development pipeline perchance? I would absolutely love to see this included at some point :)
3. Is there a chance that (perhaps as part of the map rewrite update) eventually the map will be an actual projection of a planet instead of a rectangle suspended in space? I imagine that once boats become a thing then being able to circumnavigate the globe would be a nice feature.
4. Will there ever be a more complex diplomacy and interactions system with other sites/civs? Anything to make the messenger useful for anything more than requesting workers?
5. Lastly, the Steam edition of the soundtrack currently is just compromised of 176 kbps MP3s, whereas the Bandcamp release has much higher quality files available. Is there a chance that FLAC tracks will be included in the Steam version at any point?
Post by: Criperum on February 05, 2023, 03:04:24 pm
Speaking of Mason and Architect skills being obsolete and you were glad to get rid of them (redo Mason, remove Arch). What are other features of the game you see as wrong/obsolete or anyway in need of complete rework?
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 05, 2023, 05:03:04 pm
Hello! Before I'll ask my questions, I've wanted to congratulate you on the release, I've been playing DF since 2013-ish and I'm so happy that the launch of the game went so well. Thank you a hundredfold for all the hard work that you've put into the project over the years :)1b: Yes. This is part of the centaur problem, i.e. finding out how to create hybrid of different races species. The easier version is to come up with a way to create offspring based on creatures with the same body plan (such as e.g. human/dwarf/elf/goblin/kobold) and same general properties (human/dwarf, but elf falls that part on immortality, goblin on immortality+no-eat, kobold on egg laying, with animal people obviously falling on their animal parts), and onto biologically "impossible" mashes such as centaurs, cerberii, etc. that might still be possible magically.
I've got a mishmash of different questions:
1. Will relationships/marriages between different races ever be added into the game (i.e. human-elf, dwarf-elf, elf-dwarf, human-dwarf)?
1b. If yes, in-line with common fantasy tropes, would you consider ever adding half-elves, half-dwarves etc. as offspring of such marriages?
2. I remember seeing transgender/non-binary pops being mentioned a few years back somewhere as something that was planned. Is this still somewhere in the development pipeline perchance? I would absolutely love to see this included at some point :)
3. Is there a chance that (perhaps as part of the map rewrite update) eventually the map will be an actual projection of a planet instead of a rectangle suspended in space? I imagine that once boats become a thing then being able to circumnavigate the globe would be a nice feature.
4. Will there ever be a more complex diplomacy and interactions system with other sites/civs? Anything to make the messenger useful for anything more than requesting workers?
5. Lastly, the Steam edition of the soundtrack currently is just compromised of 176 kbps MP3s, whereas the Bandcamp release has much higher quality files available. Is there a chance that FLAC tracks will be included in the Steam version at any point?
These problems are hard, but probably not perceived as impossible, and so are intended to be tacked eventually (which is well within the "ever" time frame). The result will probably not be as "primitive" as half-elves, but rather some kind of simulation of genetics that allows for offspring to inherit varying traits from their parents (such as a stocky daughter with a rounded skull and but prominent brow ridges and a slim son with an elongated skull and limited brow ridges from from the same neanderthal and sapiens parents), and, as a result of that, offspring that may inherit traits from a more varied ancestry (human/dwarf/elf/kobold with differing proportions of each, for instance, where the "proportions" would really be in the form of "genes").
2. Currently cross dressing is rendered impossible by the fact that clothes aren't gendered and there aren't any other gender specific customs either, and I don't think the state surgery is in (based on the general reference timeline of 1400) would result in many individual want to try that route (I don't think the gelders would get many "unusual" requests from willing customers). Homosexual leanings already exist, and is currently the limit of what can be displayed.
3. No. This has been asked before, and the answer is that there is no reasonably way to make a rectangular grid out of a sphere. A cylinder (were moving off one side causes you to end up on the other) would be possible, as would the arcade variant where moving off to one side causes you to end up at the other side as well as moving off the top causes you to end up at the bottom. The latter is topologically identical to a torus, but it's not a possible shape if you bring in reality and demand that each tile should be a square of the same size. Of course, the "torus" might eventually be possible in a weird magical realm that's not supposed to make full real world sense, should Toady elect to create such a realm.
4. Embark scenarios will require some additional justifications/purposes to the various scenarios, which would most likely require them to have different relationship options. A penal colony would have different options from a set of refugees from a conquered realm setting out to reestablish the realm on a new continent.
Post by: Nekkowe on February 05, 2023, 06:19:57 pm
- Did this way of handling things come with any larger headaches for development?
For instance, the UPPER_BODY, LOWER_BODY and HEAD tokens are all inherently related to equipment, but also to survivability.
Situations like that make it impossible to create e.g. creatures able to wear headgear on a head they can survive without - if they can wear hats, losing the head will always result in death.
On the flipside, other tokens seem to have no impact on various common circumstances.
To name a couple, creatures with NOBREATHE/NONAUSEA are still troubled by miasma, while creatures with NO_EAT/NO_DRINK/NO_EMOTIONS will still have related needs (but never fulfill them, leading them to be perpetually unfocused).
- To what extent are creature-related tags as a whole maintained?
- How prominent of a role are they intended to have in the game's current and future systems (thoughts, equipment, labor, magic)?
- Are there currently any plans to expand their responsibilities?
- Are there currently any plans to "officially" document the responsibilities of existing tags?
Dwarf Fortress really is one-of-a-kind, as are both the amount of care invested into- and the community grown around it.
I understand that all in all, these questions relate to a pretty niche element of DF, and that some things just have to be prioritized over others.
Post by: gondor2222 on February 06, 2023, 05:54:15 am
Perhaps even a more granular fluid model with 255 levels instead of 7? The dwarves at a dry end of long corridor filled with 7/7 water at the other end wouldn't have to wait years for any water to get to them, and we would be able to have much more interesting and/or reasonable evaporation and flow mechanics with what looks a pretty small change.
Post by: voliol on February 06, 2023, 08:57:20 am
Any chance we could have pressure occasionally equalize the top of a standing body of liquid once it fills the contain it's in? I'm talking about having that annoying one remaining 4/7 tile magically combine with the 2/7 tile at the other end of the 200 tile long tunnel so that we don't have to wait in-game months for RNGesus to allow the tiles to find eachother with the current random fluid wandering, distracting dwarves the entire time with "dangerous terrain" warnings. Might even significantly speed up the current pathfinding recalculations caused by large standing bodies of flowing mixed 3/7-4/7 water.
Perhaps even a more granular fluid model with 255 levels instead of 7? The dwarves at a dry end of long corridor filled with 7/7 water at the other end wouldn't have to wait years for any water to get to them, and we would be able to have much more interesting and/or reasonable evaporation and flow mechanics with what looks a pretty small change.
To quote Toady, "specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0)".
Post by: Urist McSadist on February 07, 2023, 09:42:39 am
How does trap finding by enemies work? I know diplomats and spies can find them, but I'm not sure on the specifics, and the wiki doesn't have anything on it. May I get some in depth explanation?
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 08, 2023, 03:58:25 am
When anyone from a civilization passes over a trap the trap location becomes known to that individual and the information is immediately passed on to the civilization the moment that individual leaves the fortress map. Notably, this includes members of performance troupes, who are usually members both of the troupe and a civilization, and troupe membership seems to trump civilization membership when it comes to enemy identification (until fighting breaks out), so members of the goblin civ you're at war with can come and go as part of performance troupes without any problem. I've never been able to identify an actual spy (not to be confused with villain agents, which come in never ending streams even as legitimate visitors die of old age), despite having looked quite intensively for them. Either they're quite rare, or they're too cunning for me to detect (using DFHack scripts).
How does trap finding by enemies work? I know diplomats and spies can find them, but I'm not sure on the specifics, and the wiki doesn't have anything on it. May I get some in depth explanation?
Once a trap is known by a civ, its invaders can pass over the trap without incident. If the detection was made by a spying civilian, the invaders just pass over the trap when invading, and if it was detected during an invasion its location is known during the next invasion. Dismantling and reconstruction of a trap wipes the knowledge of the trap from the knowledge base of civs.
As far as I know, necro towers aren't civs from this perspective, and don't gain knowledge of trap locations, but that doesn't mean they might not eventually.
Post by: Miuramir on February 08, 2023, 03:56:50 pm
......
2. I remember seeing transgender/non-binary pops being mentioned a few years back somewhere as something that was planned. Is this still somewhere in the development pipeline perchance? I would absolutely love to see this included at some point :)
3. Is there a chance that (perhaps as part of the map rewrite update) eventually the map will be an actual projection of a planet instead of a rectangle suspended in space? I imagine that once boats become a thing then being able to circumnavigate the globe would be a nice feature.
...
2. Currently cross dressing is rendered impossible by the fact that clothes aren't gendered and there aren't any other gender specific customs either, and I don't think the state surgery is in (based on the general reference timeline of 1400) would result in many individual want to try that route (I don't think the gelders would get many "unusual" requests from willing customers). Homosexual leanings already exist, and is currently the limit of what can be displayed.
3. No. This has been asked before, and the answer is that there is no reasonably way to make a rectangular grid out of a sphere. A cylinder (were moving off one side causes you to end up on the other) would be possible, as would the arcade variant where moving off to one side causes you to end up at the other side as well as moving off the top causes you to end up at the bottom. The latter is topologically identical to a torus, but it's not a possible shape if you bring in reality and demand that each tile should be a square of the same size. Of course, the "torus" might eventually be possible in a weird magical realm that's not supposed to make full real world sense, should Toady elect to create such a realm.
...
2. In the default DF raws and setting, approximately the only easily visible gender-specific difference is beards. And that's toggleable. Clothes and accessories are gender-neutral; cultural items like poetry, dance, and song are gender-neutral; jobs and roles are gender-neutral... "cross dressing" would be pretty much shaving vs. wearing a false beard in the default raws, and not even that if you've toggled beards for everyone.
Additionally, the attraction system is somewhat more expansive than simple labels; dwarves are generated with a value of disinterested in relationships, interested in casual relationships only, or willing to form permanent partnerships as separate scores for each gender. So, there are officially six sexualities possible in stock DF, including what would probably be described in current terms as aro/ace, and as bi, and a couple we don't have good names for in English. Note also that DF doesn't think of it as "homo" vs. "hetero", but as "attracted to male" score and "attracted to female" score, somewhat irrespective of whether the dwarf in question is male or female themselves.
Also, Male and Female are "just" castes of dwarves. It should be possible with fairly easy modding to create additional castes; whether setting up the additional relationship matrix can be done practically or at all is a more complicated question.
3. My take on things is that what we currently know in-game about the DF setting doesn't make sense for it to be on a sphere. There is no evidence that it should be; and a fair amount of evidence that either it isn't on a sphere, or it is a small enough patch of a sphere that the spherical nature of it can be ignored for practical purposes.
- The extremely thin crust over a world-wide cavern network over magma over spoilers over really dense spoilers is certainly not any sort of traditional planet.
- As far as I understand it is the same solar and lunar time everywhere on the world map at once.
- The area covered is really quite small in real terms; the largest possible DF world is usually quoted as "a bit smaller than the UK"; depending on which value you use based on which internal numbers, it would be somewhere between about 400 km / 245 miles on a side and about 475 km / 295 miles on a side. (And given that many worlds are smaller than that, assuming approximately the same solar / lunar time across an area a few hundred miles across is a reasonable approximation.)
- There is no evidence of survey distortion from true squares or rectangles.
- Despite all of the above, it's possible to have a "polar" region on the top, bottom, or both; but not on the sides.
Given all this, I have two competing thoughts; one is that it's a tiny patch on a large shape, such that assuming local flatness and simultaneousness of noon are reasonable approximations; and the other is that quite frankly it makes more sense if the patch is on an Alderson disk or some similar deity-created gigastructure. See, for instance, the Charles Stross novella "Missile Gap", with a huge number of "unwrapped" copies of Earth on an Alderson disk, with elaborate cooling systems in a grid creating the artificial "arctic regions". Note in particular that constructing an Alderson disk requires one or more materials of un-physical strength and (probably) density, like the scrith required for a simple ringworld, but more so... much like the two spoiler materials featured in DF, a lightweight extremely tensile material that can be formed into strands and enormous cables (which might be mistaken for pillars), and a heavy substrate material found in bulk.
Related to that, I will quote Charles Stross himself in a reddit post from about a decade ago (https://old.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/1gxde7/are_there_any_sf_novels_set_on_an_alderson_disk/cap29zb/) talking about the technical side of an Alderson disk:
Quote
... Surface escape velocity, if you try to lift straight off, is a low double-digit percentage of light speed. It is, in other words, "sticky" -- a flytrap for non-supertech civilizations. You can run experiments on its surface with reasonable confidence that they can't escape. If they try, you can sterilize them by torching off a supernova a couple of light years above the disk (if you can build an Alderson disk you can for sure engineer a supernova) and if things really go to hell in a hand-basket you can kick the props out from under it and suck everything into a medium-huge black hole (a convenient side-effect of which will be a hypernova that exterminates any escapees within several light years, however well shielded (think in terms of the neutrino pulse from a ~50,000 solar mass core collapse)).
Think of it as the ultimate petri dish for examining dangerous life forms.
Think about what we know about the DF cosmology and world for a bit with that in mind...
Post by: 13wham on February 09, 2023, 09:46:38 pm
Please include 4:3 support too! I sometimes play on a 1024x768 CRT for that good ole glow and have noticed UI scaling issues.Right now zooming in/out or scaling the UI in the premium version results in textures being blurry and it's especially visible on higher resolutions.
Do you plan to add nearest neighbor scaling in the future?
Yeah, I'm doing that. Different scale modes are part of the plans for the SDL2 update I'm doing.
It also seems like on startup the game only uses the last remembered resolution, even if that resolution isn't the resolution of the current display (the one you set as "use as my main display" in windows settings). I'm not sure if this is intended behavior or not, but I've had windows freak out and sometimes crash explorer when it sets my 20 year old CRT to 16:9 1920x1080 display mode on DF startup.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 10, 2023, 07:44:53 am
Post by: Putnam on February 10, 2023, 05:53:15 pm
Also, Male and Female are "just" castes of dwarves. It should be possible with fairly easy modding to create additional castes; whether setting up the additional relationship matrix can be done practically or at all is a more complicated question.
For the ORIENTATION token, it refers to the MALE and FEMALE tokens, which are indeed atomic (and mutually exclusive). No way to make the matrix more complex there, it's just a set of 5 flags (the extra one comes from the 1 flag, "undetermined", which is the default, but it's set to something else for everyone that isn't the adventurer)
Post by: Kat on February 11, 2023, 04:58:12 am
Clothes and accessories are gender-neutral
cross dressing is rendered impossible by the fact that clothes aren't gendered
If cross-dressing is ever going to be a thing, then it's likely to be a fair bit in the future. Based on this reply from June last year.
Quote from: KatI have a question, mostly to do with things that would be beneficial for creating mods, not entirely sure how useful they'd be for normal gameplay though.It would be cool. It's complicated to make things more details though, and the clothing generally feels sort of silly sometimes, because of the amount of calculation that has to go on just to get people to choose their clothing properly. I'd like to do something sometime though. I just noted while playing around the other day that amulets are worn on the head even though we have necks now, and I thought about a simple version of your suggestion, looked at the clothing code and was like, "well, some other time..." We'll have to see.
Are user-definable clothing items something that might be implemented ?
What I mean by this is... I have a modded beastman race, they have horns. I'd like to be able to create clothing (and/or jewellery) that they could wear on their horns. So, being able to define new bits of clothing with a token like[WORN_ON_BODY_PART:HORN], would be ideal for me.
The clothing system seems to be somewhat complex, and something that would take a while to unravel and rework.
But if gendered clothing was to be a thing, then it might work depending on how and if clothing items were reworked to be moddable. Tokens on clothing items like [worn_on_body_part:upper_body], or [worn_by_caste:all], and personality traits and thoughts related to willingness to wear clothing from a different caste might be interesting - citizens already have thoughts related to wearing high quality clothing or ragged clothing or being nude (some like being nude), so "Urist McFluid felt proud wearing unusual clothing" or "Urist McPrude felt ashamed being forced to wear strange clothing" might be possible. Could factor in foreign clothes as well, like if for some reason you have no trousers, but get a bunch of them from goblins, then those might cause thoughts too.
But if the code is complex enough, and the benefits to reworking it minimal (it mostly helps modding but not regular gameplay), then it'd be a long way off.
Post by: trxn on February 12, 2023, 06:09:52 am
Quote
if you've toggled beards for everyone
Is there an option to do that? Have every dwarf, male as well as female, sport beards? In my view all dwarves wear facial hair so it's a feature I would use, but couldn't find in the options.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 12, 2023, 07:30:21 am
All creatures have data stored in text files that can be easily edited (called "raws" as -amongst other reasons- they used to be in a folder called "raws").Quoteif you've toggled beards for everyone
Is there an option to do that? Have every dwarf, male as well as female, sport beards? In my view all dwarves wear facial hair so it's a feature I would use, but couldn't find in the options.
The Dwarf files (first creature in the file creature_standard.txt) include a lot of notes on what each piece means. In the female caste you'll find a comment line that adds beards. You just have to put it in square brackets and female dwarves will have beards.
That's as close to "just toggle it on" as modding can really get. Playing with the Dwarf raws to make a variation on them can show you just how easy it is to mod the game.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mD9Kk6kf/beards.png)
Post by: Schmaven on February 12, 2023, 07:38:37 am
That's as close to "just toggle it on" as modding can really get. Playing with the Dwarf raws to make a variation on them can show you just how easy it is to mod the game.
That creature_standard.txt file has a lot of comments throughout it as well that basically walk you through what it all means and how to change it.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on February 14, 2023, 07:55:27 pm
World-gen simulates fey and fell just fine, although you will occasionally get a chains made out of sand, which I don't think are possible items in actual fort-mode. While any number of historical artifacts can be evidently made out of dwarf/elf/goblin bones, you will not however see any historical artifacts made out of "vermin remains", as the only mood which has any probability of producing an artifact whose base reagent is a vermin remains is the macabre mood. Hence, we assume that the macabre mood is not being simulated during world-gen, which is something of a curiosity.
Post by: Pembroke on February 15, 2023, 04:32:53 pm
Is it intentional that historical artifacts produced during world-gen do not simulate macabre moods? If this is intentional, what are there reasons for wanting to avoid historical artifacts made from vermin remains?
World-gen simulates fey and fell just fine, although you will occasionally get a chains made out of sand, which I don't think are possible items in actual fort-mode. Certainly, any number of historical artifacts can be evidently made out of dwarf/elf/goblin bones, you will not see any historical artifacts made out of "vermin remains", as the only mood which has any probability of producing an artifact whose base reagent is a vermin remains is the macabre mood. Hence, we assume that the macabre mood is not being simulated during world-gen, which is something of a curiosity.
Since it's possible for worldgen moods to fail: could it be that artifact materials are sourced from what resources a civ has access to, and since vermin remains aren't an option, macabre moods always fail? That, or they could be omitted for that reason. Either makes equal amounts of sense to me.
Post by: SamBucher on February 15, 2023, 05:07:15 pm
Post by: Criperum on February 15, 2023, 05:34:39 pm
[ If some randos on the Internet can do it, then surely the game's developer(s) can too, right?Right. But randos on the internet have collectively MUCH more time. And they cannot fix save corruptions and crashes so they focus on small fixes.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 15, 2023, 05:55:48 pm
I mean "pools now spawn pool creatures" vs "game doesn't die when I create a new squad". i know which one I'd spend time on.
(Most Dwarves are not supposed to be able to wield big weapons. Does this actually fix the bug that big, player controlled dwarves won't pick up a big weapon. Or is it just a band-aid that allows any dwarves to pick up two-handed weapons in a fan-dream way that the game was never supposed to allow - thought so).
Post by: Schmaven on February 15, 2023, 07:27:00 pm
But I agree, crashes and major bugs should take priority. And there are likely enough little 1 line changes to make, that it would be much more of a substantial detour to tackle once you add it all up. I assume those simple fixes just get taken care of when those areas of the code are being worked on for more major reasons.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on February 15, 2023, 07:53:51 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on February 16, 2023, 07:11:18 pm
Is it intentional that historical artifacts produced during world-gen do not simulate macabre moods? If this is intentional, what are the reasons for wanting to avoid historical artifacts made from vermin remains?
World-gen simulates fey and fell just fine, although you will occasionally get a chains made out of sand, which I don't think are possible items in actual fort-mode. Certainly, any number of historical artifacts can be evidently made out of dwarf/elf/goblin bones, you will not see any historical artifacts made out of "vermin remains", as the only mood which has any probability of producing an artifact whose base reagent is a vermin remains is the macabre mood. Hence, we assume that the macabre mood is not being simulated during world-gen, which is something of a curiosity.
Since it's possible for worldgen moods to fail: could it be that artifact materials are sourced from what resources a civ has access to, and since vermin remains aren't an option, macabre moods always fail? That, or they could be omitted for that reason. Either makes equal amounts of sense to me.
It seems pretty hard to imagine the dwarves wouldn't have access to vermin, due to being able to produce animal traps. I'm not sure thats whats happening.
Also, you definitely start to wonder how the entire tracking systems works, when you notice that a dwarf somehow managed to produce a toy axe entirely out of siliceous ooze during world generation. (Its soil thats found at the bottom of the ocean.)
Post by: dikbutdagrate on February 16, 2023, 07:22:59 pm
I have noticed that there are a whole lot of mods whose only purpose is to edit one or a few lines in the raws to fix a minor bug, like pools not spawning creatures that can only spawn in pools, dwarves not being able to wield big weapons, etc. Wouldn't it be wise to make a list of these small bugs and squish them all at once? If some randos on the Internet can do it, then surely the game's developer(s) can too, right?
Please be aware that your question is not even a suggestion, its just rude.
If you are new and/or lost, I can sympathize, and I will gladly redirect you to an appropriate thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173049.0
In the future, please be more mindful as to whether your question is being communicated effectively.
I have typed the following, in order to give you an example of what might have been a better way of going about asking your question:
"Are there any plans to allocate potential development time, in the semi-to-near-future, toward addressing some of the longstanding minor bugs concerning the game's default creature raws?
While many of these issues do appear to be very minor in scope, and have already been addressed in a variety of player hosted mods, an official release would really help in lowering the cognitive over-head required from newer players, such as myself, to fix these things whenever we encounter them. It really stinks when we look forward to seeing a specific creature spawning, and it just doesn't!"
Edit: See? Theres nothing wrong with getting Tarn right in the feels man, you just have to be more mindful in how you do it.
Post by: Random_Dragon on February 16, 2023, 07:44:21 pm
As someone who's contributed to other projects in the past, my experience with Cataclysm has given me a pretty much instinctive "if the implementation isn't feature-complete without something that's promised as something to be added later, plan for the worst-case scenario that it's staying half-implemented for the foreseeable future" mentality. One's experience with open-source projects doesn't really translate neatly into what assumptions are accurate, but the anxiety is still hard to shake (plus multiple features I've personally liked, like curious structures and being able to craft with sentient body matrerials in adventure mode, have all gone the way of Giant Desert Scorpions so precedent already exists).
Related though, have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum? The subforum summaries indicate that a couple other users have been appointed as moderators in the past, but far as I can tell from checking their profiles and posts it looks like they haven't been active in years (Kurtulmak was last active over a decade ago, and Jonathan S. Fox not since last year, and both of those have subforum-specific moderator privileges it seems rather than general moderator authority).
Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on February 17, 2023, 01:09:38 am
Post by: dikbutdagrate on February 17, 2023, 02:32:02 am
Hello! Before I'll ask my questions, I've wanted to congratulate you on the release, I've been playing DF since 2013-ish and I'm so happy that the launch of the game went so well. Thank you a hundredfold for all the hard work that you've put into the project over the years :)1b: Yes. This is part of the centaur problem, i.e. finding out how to create hybrid of different races species. The easier version is to come up with a way to create offspring based on creatures with the same body plan (such as e.g. human/dwarf/elf/goblin/kobold) and same general properties (human/dwarf, but elf falls that part on immortality, goblin on immortality+no-eat, kobold on egg laying, with animal people obviously falling on their animal parts), and onto biologically "impossible" mashes such as centaurs, cerberii, etc. that might still be possible magically.
I've got a mishmash of different questions:
1. Will relationships/marriages between different races ever be added into the game (i.e. human-elf, dwarf-elf, elf-dwarf, human-dwarf)?
1b. If yes, in-line with common fantasy tropes, would you consider ever adding half-elves, half-dwarves etc. as offspring of such marriages?
These problems are hard, but probably not perceived as impossible, and so are intended to be tacked eventually (which is well within the "ever" time frame). The result will probably not be as "primitive" as half-elves, but rather some kind of simulation of genetics that allows for offspring to inherit varying traits from their parents (such as a stocky daughter with a rounded skull and but prominent brow ridges and a slim son with an elongated skull and limited brow ridges from from the same neanderthal and sapiens parents), and, as a result of that, offspring that may inherit traits from a more varied ancestry (human/dwarf/elf/kobold with differing proportions of each, for instance, where the "proportions" would really be in the form of "genes").
This question comes up pretty often, and so could probably be answered by just linking back to earlier explanations, but I really like the way you've described the issue in comprehensive detail here.
I'm not sure Toady is ever going to have time for that kind of rewrite. Considering Myth and Magics not even out yet.
But you know, maybe, just maybe, somewhere far off in the distant year of 199X, in the retro-post 80's imagined future VHS hellscape/apocalyptic wasteland™, entity civs will spawn featuring post unique post world-gen determined creatures, such as: ½ lobster-men, ¼ goblin, ⅛ dwarf, ⅛ kobolds, who will live in little town houses that are all shaped and aligned in such a way, so to represent the different phases of the moon, for moon reasons, leaving one neighbor very much without a roof. And maybe this civ of "jeff-men" have fantastic, unique, and effective ways of fighting the goblins with weapons made entirely out of wax and bumblebee fuzz. But then you have to ask yourself, if I could play as jeff-men, why would I ever play as dwarves? The answer is, you wouldn't. You'd just play as jeff-men. Consequently, the game would no longer really be about dwarves anymore. It would just be a procedurally generated nightmare zoo. Do you really want to live in the year 199X? Is this the world you want to live in? A world ruled entirely by jeffs?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 17, 2023, 02:50:18 am
And Toady introduced the concept of worlds without dwarves (all-human worlds and all-proc gen critter worlds) when he presented Mythgen several years ago. It's where the game is going.
Post by: Immortal-D on February 20, 2023, 06:03:03 pm
- Is a non-mouse interface for Classic theoretically possible with all of the UI changes (regardless of plans for it)?
Post by: jecowa on February 21, 2023, 01:48:10 am
Related though, have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum?
Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.
Issues in the politics section of a gaming forum doesn’t sound great. Maybe the world would be better off with one fewer forum for gamers’ views on politics. A lot of those boards in the “finally” section – I don’t really know why they’re there except maybe just to keep that stuff out of the rest of the forum.
Also, are you volunteering to be the new moderator?
Post by: Eschar on February 21, 2023, 03:07:57 am
Related though, have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum?
Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.
A lot of those boards in the “finally” section – I don’t really know why they’re there except maybe just to keep that stuff out of the rest of the forum.
Hey, FGAR is a more popular board than the Dwarf Fortress ones! Ok I know that probably wasn't the board you meant. Life Advice board attracts weirdos sometimes, also.
...though as far as I can tell, the politicking in lower boards doesn't really result in all that many moderation incidents, and I can't recall any huge ones recently. Check the mod log - there haven't been a lot of bannable incidents in bay12 history, relative to the length of that history.
Post by: voliol on February 21, 2023, 05:38:09 am
Related though, have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum?
Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.
A lot of those boards in the “finally” section – I don’t really know why they’re there except maybe just to keep that stuff out of the rest of the forum.
Hey, FGAR is a more popular board than the Dwarf Fortress ones! Ok I know that probably wasn't the board you meant. Life Advice board attracts weirdos sometimes, also.
...though as far as I can tell, the politicking in lower boards doesn't really result in all that many moderation incidents, and I can't recall any huge ones recently. Check the mod log - there haven't been a lot of bannable incidents in bay12 history, relative to the length of that history.
It's arguably more of an issue that it takes a long while for new members to get registered. Sure, there are forums for most kinds of discussion found here, and some amount of community splintering is expected either way for a game this large. As far as I know though, the suggestions board is the only of its kind, which Toady and Threetoe actually keep track of. It sucks to see good suggestions on the subreddit and discord, and have to tell them to go to a forum as closed as this one.
Admittedly, letting more people in should be a compound issue with typical moderation; more of it would be needed if the Steam crowd flooded in.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on February 21, 2023, 04:14:05 pm
Admittedly, letting more people in should be a compound issue with typical moderation; more of it would be needed if the Steam crowd flooded in.
I suspect they already have. Likely the only thing holding back the floodgates is T-doggo's own approval for each of the forum applications.
Back when I applied to the forums, which was just a couple years ago I think, I recall it took over a week for my application to get its manual approval from sir T-doggo. So that was wait time before the steam release, but after steam release? I have no idea how long the average wait time is to get in. But I would hazard a guess that'll take at least several more months for the entire steam crowd to finally finish trickling in.
Post by: Inarius on February 23, 2023, 03:39:18 am
Post by: Buttery_Mess on February 26, 2023, 09:01:45 am
Are there any mods which you're aware of that you'd consider adapting into the game, or which have or may inspire you to include new features?
Post by: voliol on February 26, 2023, 09:47:01 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 26, 2023, 04:15:05 pm
Lately the updates/blog posts on the Bay 12 website and Steam alike have been very sparse. Can we expect this trend to continue going forwards, or is rather it that the current kind of work is hard to write about? The transparency in DF's dev cycle has always been a really strong point, imo, so it would be sad to see it lessened.Worth noting that Putnam has been posting almost every day on bug fixing and optimization progress. Not at this forum (it's not really the right set up for daily comment snippits), but "transparency" is still going on.
(Also Toady's devlog for the month is likely "bought a new suit, travelled, built a shelf to put my award trophy on". He did say in the last devblog update that February would be a weird month as far as progress was concerned).
Post by: voliol on February 26, 2023, 04:51:04 pm
Lately the updates/blog posts on the Bay 12 website and Steam alike have been very sparse. Can we expect this trend to continue going forwards, or is rather it that the current kind of work is hard to write about? The transparency in DF's dev cycle has always been a really strong point, imo, so it would be sad to see it lessened.Worth noting that Putman has been posting almost every day on bug fixing and optimization progress. Not at this forum (it's not really the right set up for daily comment snippits), but "transparency" is still going on.
(Also Toady's devlog for the month is likely "bought a new suit, travelled, built a shelf to put my award trophy on". He did say in the last devblog update that February would be a weird month as far as progress was concerned).
Oh, I had missed Putnam's posting. Thanks for pointing it out! Dug some in the Kitfox discord (since I normally don't go there) and found her commenting on SDL2 in the modding channels, so if that's what you're referring to I don't think it's too difficult to find either. Fair point about the last devlog too. :)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on February 26, 2023, 10:03:53 pm
Post by: Vanzetti on February 27, 2023, 02:24:52 pm
Post by: Daniel the Finlander on February 28, 2023, 05:24:24 pm
1. How much did community feedback influence the redesign?
2. Were there any particular community suggestions that were implemented in the new interface?
3. If you did utilize community feedback/suggestions, was Bay 12 Forums the only source for them? Or were there other ones as well?
4. Were there any suggestions that were good at first glance but weren't practical to implement?
5. What UI/UX design theory did you read, if any?
6. Did you take any ideas for the redesign from critical reviews of Dwarf Fortress? If yes, which ones?
7. Did other games influence the redesign? If yes, which ones and in what way?
Unrelated to Dwarf Fortress itself, there's also another question: is there any obstacle to using messages on this forum as research material?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 01, 2023, 10:56:34 pm
Would be nice to see details of their secrets in the arena, like we can see active syndromes. But that's for the suggestions thread.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 02, 2023, 04:31:02 pm
It seems like this bloat-bucket list item has been mostly addressed, minus the use of feathers in game. Are there any plans to add a 'decorate with feathers option' to the craftdwarf's workshop? Or should DF modders plan on providing the functionality in .5+?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 02, 2023, 05:34:34 pm
"Bloat58, MORE LIVESTOCK, (Future): Livestock. Use of feathers. Use of wool. Various eggs and nests. Dwarves should hate eating plants all the time."That's a list of planned features. Although depending on how low priority it is, you might have to wait 20 years to see it. May as well mod it in yourself if you can.
It seems like this bloat-bucket list item has been mostly addressed, minus the use of feathers in game. Are there any plans to add a 'decorate with feathers option' to the craftdwarf's workshop? Or should DF modders plan on providing the functionality in .5+?
Post by: Toady One on March 02, 2023, 07:16:42 pm
Quote from: JuniperAndFriends
Are there currently any plans to add more music tracks to Dwarf Fortress? If yes, then specifically, are there any plans to port more of Simon Swerwer's DF-inspired music from the SoundSense days? I know we got Koganusan and some tracks that sound like spiritual successors to his music, but his tracks really are the music of Dwarf Fortress for me, and as much as I love the new tracks (ESPECIALLY Vile Force of Darkness), I kinda miss a lot of the old tracks I used to listen to over SoundSense, and even if a lot of the new tracks sound very similar, it's just not the same.
Now that I think of it, have there been any plans to add something along the same vein as Willow and Light by Kevin McLeod? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwluv_XKCfM In my personal view, this is the song that embodies the mystique of watching over the world as it comes into being before selecting a site that will become your dwarves' new home, and if I had to pick a song I miss the most from SoundSense, it would have to be this one. Now obviously, the real world is going to get in the way now that DF has gone premium, but I figured I'd put this out there.
and I know I've just asked for a lot, but speaking of all this, would there be a way to turn specific individual music tracks on or off? Sometimes I get sick of hearing one certain track or another, but only on that day. A music mod for the other things might be fine, but a music mod to remove existing tracks might be overkill, since that means the entire timeline now lacks that music track forever. If it's not possible, could it be possible to have a player-adjustable weighting system to reduce the frequency of certain tracks while boosting the likelihood of others? That might be enough, because I do remember how increasing the length between tracks did actually help me quite a lot in that regard, but I still kinda get frustrated at how frequently Strange Moods and Craftsdwarfship are always coming up all the freaking time, but I would love to hear Strike The Earth quite a bit more.
We're in the early stages of our next plans here, so there's nothing to announce yet!
It'd be possible to do fancy stuff with the tracks yeah. It's like the rest of the game now, so we'll just slowly be improving it with additional options and such. Suggestions always welcome! But it's hard to say when a given thing will happen.
Quote from: KristoffPL
1. Will relationships/marriages between different races ever be added into the game (i.e. human-elf, dwarf-elf, elf-dwarf, human-dwarf)?
1b. If yes, in-line with common fantasy tropes, would you consider ever adding half-elves, half-dwarves etc. as offspring of such marriages?
2. I remember seeing transgender/non-binary pops being mentioned a few years back somewhere as something that was planned. Is this still somewhere in the development pipeline perchance? I would absolutely love to see this included at some point :)
3. Is there a chance that (perhaps as part of the map rewrite update) eventually the map will be an actual projection of a planet instead of a rectangle suspended in space? I imagine that once boats become a thing then being able to circumnavigate the globe would be a nice feature.
4. Will there ever be a more complex diplomacy and interactions system with other sites/civs? Anything to make the messenger useful for anything more than requesting workers?
5. Lastly, the Steam edition of the soundtrack currently is just compromised of 176 kbps MP3s, whereas the Bandcamp release has much higher quality files available. Is there a chance that FLAC tracks will be included in the Steam version at any point?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8452459#msg8452459
Miuramir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8453105#msg8453105
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8453536#msg8453536
Kat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8453626#msg8453626
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8454938#msg8454938
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8454940#msg8454940
1+3+4: I think the replies handle these as well as I can.
2. I think the focus on clothing in the replies isn't so important - it is true that clothing isn't gendered in DF and it's just not relevant. There are some more subtle markers though beyond beards, and especially elves have gendered societal positions for instance. So there's some room to consider it in-universe as it currently exists. But I do end up going back and forth because there's just not the normal amount of material to work with (it's a matter of will rather than implementation in other games, mostly), so I wonder how it'd be expressed. We have to ask why dwarves have pronouns in the first place, in the english rendering of statements about them - if we're secretly bringing along a lot of gender assumptions, and just not talking about them yet in game, then of course there should be transdwarves and others, since we sim stuff here. But I still feel like I don't see the path forward clearly, and that I'm not thinking clearly. Partially because I've been hesitant to bring in gender (and racial etc.) categories from the real world and putting them all through the game objects (as with clothing), but that still doesn't feel like the crux of things. Just putting in pronoun options as in other games is the obvious step, but it feels thin. Feels like I need a game object or something.
5. Hmm, I remember this coming up, but I don't recall exactly what the deal was here. I'll make a note to ask.
Quote from: Criperum
Speaking of Mason and Architect skills being obsolete and you were glad to get rid of them (redo Mason, remove Arch). What are other features of the game you see as wrong/obsolete or anyway in need of complete rework?
All the map code, ha ha ha. Items being hierarchical objects - the tool item type sucked up all the new ones and I really need the old ones to be more flexible like that, and it's also holding me back on the tool object to have the old ones there. The way it stores units in adventure mode is all wrong. There's a lot of stuff, really, and a lot of them are decisions from over a decade ago ha ha.
Quote from: Nekkowe
One of many things I love about Dwarf Fortress is how open to modding it is, laying the creature definitions out and opening them up to be changed and added to.
Did this way of handling things come with any larger headaches for development?
While writing a mod for a new creature and civ, I ran into trouble with several important tags serving very rigid dual purposes.
For instance, the UPPER_BODY, LOWER_BODY and HEAD tokens are all inherently related to equipment, but also to survivability.
Situations like that make it impossible to create e.g. creatures able to wear headgear on a head they can survive without - if they can wear hats, losing the head will always result in death.
On the flipside, other tokens seem to have no impact on various common circumstances.
To name a couple, creatures with NOBREATHE/NONAUSEA are still troubled by miasma, while creatures with NO_EAT/NO_DRINK/NO_EMOTIONS will still have related needs (but never fulfill them, leading them to be perpetually unfocused).
To what extent are creature-related tags as a whole maintained?
How prominent of a role are they intended to have in the game's current and future systems (thoughts, equipment, labor, magic)?
Are there currently any plans to expand their responsibilities?
Are there currently any plans to "officially" document the responsibilities of existing tags?
Thank you very much for this incredible work.
Dwarf Fortress really is one-of-a-kind, as are both the amount of care invested into- and the community grown around it.
I understand that all in all, these questions relate to a pretty niche element of DF, and that some things just have to be prioritized over others.
You have to keep respecting the format as best you can, since mods are all out there being worked on and you don't want to break them, but it's really not a huge hassle. I like the open format. It keeps my objects honest too.
Creature tags: I'm not sure what you mean - like how often do I come back and revisit them? Not that often, but it comes up. The tags are important to everything that intersects them, and they'll be expanded as we go. It's hard to keep things consistent/consistently useful/connected since it's a large game. The wiki has worked pretty well up to this point for documentation, and I try to help when people ask specific questions so that the wiki can be expanded (it often happens here in FotF), but it's too much of a burden for me to document everything and keep it up to date.
Quote from: gondor2222
Any chance we could have pressure occasionally equalize the top of a standing body of liquid once it fills the contain it's in? I'm talking about having that annoying one remaining 4/7 tile magically combine with the 2/7 tile at the other end of the 200 tile long tunnel so that we don't have to wait in-game months for RNGesus to allow the tiles to find eachother with the current random fluid wandering, distracting dwarves the entire time with "dangerous terrain" warnings. Might even significantly speed up the current pathfinding recalculations caused by large standing bodies of flowing mixed 3/7-4/7 water.
Perhaps even a more granular fluid model with 255 levels instead of 7? The dwarves at a dry end of long corridor filled with 7/7 water at the other end wouldn't have to wait years for any water to get to them, and we would be able to have much more interesting and/or reasonable evaporation and flow mechanics with what looks a pretty small change.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8452613#msg8452613
I mean it's an algorithmic problem I don't have an immediate answer to. It'd have to be faster than what we are doing now, and flooding out across the map through arbitrary shapes is really not fast, and there are probably situations where the combinations aren't so clean as two tiles 4/2->3/3 where it'd need to do this or that. But it can definitely be better than it is now.
There's a cost to making the fluid model more granular, in bits, and in the possibility of additional fluids etc., so we have to be careful. It also makes things less clear to display perhaps, and harder to think about perhaps.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
How does trap finding by enemies work? I know diplomats and spies can find them, but I'm not sure on the specifics, and the wiki doesn't have anything on it. May I get some in depth explanation?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8453010#msg8453010
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Was a bit disappointed to note that Legends Mode no longer refers to "A Time before Time" (such as when a demon thrusts a spire up from the underworld). Was it all changed to the comparitively boring "Year 1" to make way for updates when Mythgen comes along?
Huh. I don't remember removing it for any specific reason. Maybe just a bug. Mythgen is definitely going to shake things up, but I don't recall prepping anything for it as it's still a way off and I'm not sure what I need. I also like the time before time construction.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Is it intentional that historical artifacts produced during world-gen do not simulate macabre moods? If this is intentional, what are the reasons for wanting to avoid historical artifacts made from vermin remains?
World-gen simulates fey and fell just fine, although you will occasionally get a chains made out of sand, which I don't think are possible items in actual fort-mode. While any number of historical artifacts can be evidently made out of dwarf/elf/goblin bones, you will not however see any historical artifacts made out of "vermin remains", as the only mood which has any probability of producing an artifact whose base reagent is a vermin remains is the macabre mood. Hence, we assume that the macabre mood is not being simulated during world-gen, which is something of a curiosity.
Pembroke: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8454554#msg8454554
dikbutdagrate (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8454844#msg8454844
I'm almost certain I just hit some minor speedbump getting at the materials or something and was just like, moving on! They should definitely be there, in principle.
Quote
Quote from: SamBucherI have noticed that there are a whole lot of mods whose only purpose is to edit one or a few lines in the raws to fix a minor bug, like pools not spawning creatures that can only spawn in pools, dwarves not being able to wield big weapons, etc. Wouldn't it be wise to make a list of these small bugs and squish them all at once? If some randos on the Internet can do it, then surely the game's developer(s) can too, right?Quote from: dikbutdagrateAre there any plans to allocate potential development time, in the semi-to-near-future, toward addressing some of the longstanding minor bugs concerning the game's default creature raws?
While many of these issues do appear to be very minor in scope, and have already been addressed in a variety of player hosted mods, an official release would really help in lowering the cognitive over-head required from newer players, such as myself, to fix these things whenever we encounter them. It really stinks when we look forward to seeing a specific creature spawning, and it just doesn't!
Criperum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8454574#msg8454574
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8454581#msg8454581
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8454603#msg8454603
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8454847#msg8454847
People are right that there have always been bigger fish to fry, though ultimately it goes to the question if we should stop adding stuff and just fix bugs forever, which is a popular enough position. We have more options now, anyway, though Putnam is also frying big fish over in port land etc. There are big fish everywhere.
Quote from: Random_Dragon
have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum? The subforum summaries indicate that a couple other users have been appointed as moderators in the past, but far as I can tell from checking their profiles and posts it looks like they haven't been active in years (Kurtulmak was last active over a decade ago, and Jonathan S. Fox not since last year, and both of those have subforum-specific moderator privileges it seems rather than general moderator authority).
Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.
jecowa: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8455733#msg8455733
Eschar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8455738#msg8455738
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8455755#msg8455755
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8455841#msg8455841
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8456171#msg8456171
For people in the replies, the validation queue is a little slow, but it's roughly up to date, not months late. Generally, it still seems like moderators would cause more problems than they solve, and end up taking more of my time than (slowly, admittedly, in the latest case) banning the occasional troll.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Have you considered hiring a webmaster?
I have! It is increasingly the only way to go I think. I don't have any business running a web site/server/etc. It's just not my skillset and I'm obviously pretty terrible at it.
Quote from: Immortal-D
- Have you treated yourself with the new income? Like a really high end gaming/office chair or some artwork?
- Is a non-mouse interface for Classic theoretically possible with all of the UI changes (regardless of plans for it)?
- Zach says we've moved from Middling (18.6) to Wealthy (45.9) in the Victoria 3 parlance ha ha. I've treated myself to a better apartment, nothing else specific as of yet, but things have been so busy after launch there just hasn't been time to think about another treat. The general issues of paying people long-term and such seem to be settling in at least.
- Like keyboard only? That's where we're hoping to head now that we're emerging into the quality of life phase slowly after the arena patch. I think there are things that are hard about it, but if some kind of focused element can be made to live in the menus that should get us a lot of the way there. Hotkeys alone won't do it. Of course this means you'll be back to pressing keys 50 times to do simple things, but I think maybe that's just how things would be.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Do you miss drawing the crayon art rewards? Did you keep any scans/photos of them? Were they involved in helping the art team to draw the sprites?
Are there any mods which you're aware of that you'd consider adapting into the game, or which have or may inspire you to include new features?
Ha ha, it was really quite a bit of work. We didn't keep photos though we often considered it and failed to do so. I don't think the crayon rewards came up with the art team at all, not that I remember.
Obviously some of the utilities have come up in the development of the interface, since people were working with similar ideas to solve the problems we faced, but at this current moment nothing's really on my radar. Mostly because my radar is very buried right now ha ha.
Quote from: voliol
Lately the updates/blog posts on the Bay 12 website and Steam alike have been very sparse. Can we expect this trend to continue going forwards, or is rather it that the current kind of work is hard to write about? The transparency in DF's dev cycle has always been a really strong point, imo, so it would be sad to see it lessened.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8456902#msg8456902
voliol (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8456916#msg8456916
I still hope that this is just a weird sparse time, yeah. March is full of stuff too that isn't me working on the game - everybody else is doing cool stuff though, as mentioned in the last report. But I'm already absolutely swamped. I'm trying my best to keep April clear. I have literally nothing scheduled in April, ha ha, and it's a great thing to look forward too. Really hoping it works out and we can kind of settle in to some normalcy. But these aren't normal times and we'll have to see. I have to keep adjusting and learning how to deal with the new situation.
Quote from: Vanzetti
Subterranean invaders are currently very zerg-like. Shouldn't there be an option to appease them somehow?
Something at least. I agree it's just garbage now.
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
Hello, I would like to ask some questions related to the user interface redesign that was part of 0.50.
1. How much did community feedback influence the redesign?
2. Were there any particular community suggestions that were implemented in the new interface?
3. If you did utilize community feedback/suggestions, was Bay 12 Forums the only source for them? Or were there other ones as well?
4. Were there any suggestions that were good at first glance but weren't practical to implement?
5. What UI/UX design theory did you read, if any?
6. Did you take any ideas for the redesign from critical reviews of Dwarf Fortress? If yes, which ones?
7. Did other games influence the redesign? If yes, which ones and in what way?
Unrelated to Dwarf Fortress itself, there's also another question: is there any obstacle to using messages on this forum as research material?
1. It was the reason it happened in the first place, from one angle, so it's like, 100%. If there weren't huge problems with the original design we wouldn't have needed it, and we needed to figure out what the problems were.
2. Probably too many to list, I think? But we didn't implement a specific set of feedback either (lots of people have posted very specific menu suggestions). We had to consider the game as a whole. Our version of the labor system, say, is a bit different from the mods, and our main control setup ended up different from anybody's mockups. But the ideas were certainly informative.
3. We looked all over the place, and people from other communities (e.g. reddit) also directed us to specific threads, etc.
4. Sure, this is pretty common. The basic rule with suggestions is that you try to identify the underlying problem and solve it, and just take the specific solution suggested under advisement but it's basically never quite right. The specific suggestions are made by people that don't generally take the whole project into consideration (which is understandable!) or who don't have a lot of experience (also understandable!), but their grievances are almost always rooted in something very real. It's our job to both fix problems and keep the project generally churning along happily. (and to be clear, suggestions do sometimes have good specific implementation ideas)
5. It's a profession! I talked to a professional person instead of trying to learn myself, when I could. Definitely should have done more. I've learned some things though, and it probably wouldn't hurt to take a little more time with study, but it's no replacement for somebody that knows what they are doing.
6. We didn't really have a lot of reviews until now. It was all more informal.
7. Sims and the Paradox catalog probably up there. We looked at many of our successor games as well, since we all face the same basic issues.
Messages as research: I didn't write most of them! I'm not sure what the obstacles typically are there.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
In the arena, are necromancer abilities determined each time the Arena is generated? Seems to be the case, but I might be missing something.
Would be nice to see details of their secrets in the arena, like we can see active syndromes. But that's for the suggestions thread.
Yeah, I think it does cook them up. Felt like a way to keep myself honest at the time, but it's also pretty confusing.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
"Bloat58, MORE LIVESTOCK, (Future): Livestock. Use of feathers. Use of wool. Various eggs and nests. Dwarves should hate eating plants all the time."
It seems like this bloat-bucket list item has been mostly addressed, minus the use of feathers in game. Are there any plans to add a 'decorate with feathers option' to the craftdwarf's workshop? Or should DF modders plan on providing the functionality in .5+?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8458032#msg8458032
Yeah, it's an old list as well, so I wouldn't wait for it to happen soon for sure. We like feathers though.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 02, 2023, 11:14:47 pm
Aren't these marked by dwarves beginning to "skulk and brood"?
My worldgen has lots of these.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQxGnYWM/skulk.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsGxzDR9/mole.png)
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 03, 2023, 04:41:58 pm
Macabre Mood.
Aren't these marked by dwarves beginning to "skulk and brood"?
My worldgen has lots of these.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsGxzDR9/mole.png)
Uhh... So I'm looking at your screenshots, the second one in particular, and I'm wondering what a "wild dwarf" is exactly?
"Cruelempires was created by the wild dwarf Ineth Handlesandal."
--------------------
Edit:
As I haven't played a lot of any post 0.45.07 Dwarf Fortress while I wait for the mac port, I figured "hey, you know, maybe they're right. It could be possible that something has changed with .5+ DF", although of course, no one would have noticed and pointed it out to me until now.
Booted up the wineskin I have for premium, and I generated a 250 year old medium world to check for any macabre artifacts. And wow! There they are! Theres at least a few of them.
While they're uncommon, dwarves will evidently produce macabre artifacts as of .5+
However, I haven't found any of the artifacts produced in this small sample size to be made out of vermin remains, which should account for 33% of them. So I'm not sure if thats a bug or not. Either way, it's neat theres some new stuff to be added to the wiki. And there not being vermin remains support yet seems to line up with T-dog's vague recollection of having physically collided with some sort of object, I think? Which then redirected the feature priorities for that day.
(Note: I also confirmed that dwarf began to stalk and brood. Just didn't bother taking the screenshot.)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 03, 2023, 06:55:41 pm
But, yeah, no vermin remains that I can see, which is presumably what Toady meant about not getting all the materials done.
Also, baffled as to where you get 33% from?? You have access to Toady's code?
Post by: Putnam on March 04, 2023, 04:48:17 am
It's zero-dot-fifty, not zero-point-five!
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 04, 2023, 01:09:55 pm
Sorry, modded creature. Have skulking and brooding regular dwarves creating artifacts too.
But, yeah, no vermin remains that I can see, which is presumably what Toady meant about not getting all the materials done.
Also, baffled as to where you get 33% from?? You have access to Toady's code?
Ran a fairly exhaustive series of tests. It supports the notion that all historical animal bone artifacts are now produced exclusively by dwarves who are listed as having had macabre moods, as of premium.
33%
https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/blob/master/plugins/strangemood.cpp#L721
https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/blob/master/plugins/strangemood.cpp#L725
Heh, my bad!
It's zero-dot-fifty, not zero-point-five!
Post by: Putnam on March 04, 2023, 01:27:15 pm
Sorry, modded creature. Have skulking and brooding regular dwarves creating artifacts too.
But, yeah, no vermin remains that I can see, which is presumably what Toady meant about not getting all the materials done.
Also, baffled as to where you get 33% from?? You have access to Toady's code?
Ran a fairly exhaustive series of tests. It supports the notion that all historical animal bone artifacts are now produced exclusively by dwarves who are listed as having had macabre moods, as of premium.
Where did I get 33% from?
https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/blob/master/plugins/strangemood.cpp#L721
https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/blob/master/plugins/strangemood.cpp#L725
wg moods obviously don't work the same as fort mode moods. Macabre moods just choose a random bone mat available to the civ, no weighting on vermin or anything.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 04, 2023, 01:37:43 pm
wg moods obviously don't work the same as fort mode moods. Macabre moods just choose a random bone mat available to the civ, no weighting on vermin or anything.
-------
edit:
Putnam pointed out something, which I guess I hadn't grasped. World gen produced artifacts are not necessarily intended to be weighted the same as they are in fort mode. Like, its fallacious to assume product likelihood is supposed to be an approximation of what is produced in fort mode. The spirit of the thing is whats most important. So apologies for that!
Post by: Immortal-D on March 04, 2023, 06:16:21 pm
- What news of new music & graphics for premium?
- Are friendly Necromancer Experiments supposed to be so common? I rarely see them invade, but a whole bunch show up at every Fort as scholars and visitors.
- The caverns still regularly see multiple hundreds of invaders pile up, regardless of caps. Is this strictly a difficulty setting, or something that needs further adjustment?
- Is the lack of caravans from your home civ after becoming the Mountainhome intentional?
-
Honestly, the old keyboard controls really were not that bad, despite the memes about it. It could use a little polish, but for a game like this, keyboard cursor is so much faster and efficient.Quote from: Immortal-D- Is a non-mouse interface for Classic theoretically possible with all of the UI changes (regardless of plans for it)?
- Like keyboard only? That's where we're hoping to head now that we're emerging into the quality of life phase slowly after the arena patch. I think there are things that are hard about it, but if some kind of focused element can be made to live in the menus that should get us a lot of the way there. Hotkeys alone won't do it. Of course this means you'll be back to pressing keys 50 times to do simple things, but I think maybe that's just how things would be.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 04, 2023, 07:37:19 pm
Is there a technical or design reason why a tomb zone can not support multiple coffins? (each coffin must be its' own zone)Because dwarves claim zones right now, not furniture. It's exactly the same system as bedrooms and offices.
You'd need to make a new system for tombs which allowed claimable furniture to work the way you want it to.
(Not that it wouldn't be a good idea, and there are several suggestions threads asking for it already).
Also eventual plans for a catacombs zone were mentioned in an earlier fotf:
Quote
I was considering adding a 'catacomb' style zone that works like a dormitory for the dead. Have to tweak coffin 'ownership' a bit to make it work. (I don't remember if it technically counts as catacombs if the bodies aren't in the open rather than enclosed in individual caskets. We'd still be using individual caskets here, just no doors.)
Post by: voliol on March 05, 2023, 02:54:28 am
Post by: Jack_Caboose on March 08, 2023, 08:36:40 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 09, 2023, 12:14:52 am
Would it be possible to use letters as a backup for creature/item graphics if there's no graphical tile for it? Similar to what CDDA does.Suggestions forum is where you want to be. The game currently already has default graphics for when there isn't one available. So what's a better alternative? Just a random tiny letter thrown into the graphical environment would be lost immediately. Debug guy is far more visible. So, do you make a new tileset of graphics that look like the letters A-Z? But then do you want to differentiate creatures from items? In which case several new tilesets..
Anyhow, if you have a good solution, suggestions forum is probably the best place for it. I like the idea of branding the debug guy with a letter on his forehead representing what he's supposed to be.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 09, 2023, 02:16:31 am
While having the debug creature wear a T-shirt with a character on it would be cool for creatures, I suspect the available number of pixels won't be sufficient to actually depict legible characters in many cases.
Post by: Ziusudra on March 09, 2023, 03:29:48 am
Would it be possible to use letters as a backup for creature/item graphics if there's no graphical tile for it? Similar to what CDDA does.This has also already been answered:
Quote from: Urist McSadist1.Right now modded creatures without textures show up as the debug creature, which can be annoying. Will this get changed?
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433121#msg8433121
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433168#msg8433168
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433262#msg8433262
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433380#msg8433380
Urist McSadist (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8433714#msg8433714
1. It's possible to have options I suppose, but I don't want ASCII generally to show up in the graphical release without opt-in. It would be more confusing.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 09, 2023, 05:08:02 am
If the creature raws still define a character for things it would make sense to fall back to an image of that character (basically the tile set image used by the Classic version) if the currently selected tile set (which might not be an official one) doesn't contain the character. I also have third party tool usage of character images in mind (where character tiles from the character tile set would be addressed directly).What about a hat, like..a chef's hat. Bet you could fit a small, visible letter on there. :D
While having the debug creature wear a T-shirt with a character on it would be cool for creatures, I suspect the available number of pixels won't be sufficient to actually depict legible characters in many cases.
Post by: Immortal-D on March 09, 2023, 04:07:44 pm
Much obliged.Is there a technical or design reason why a tomb zone can not support multiple coffins? (each coffin must be its' own zone)Because dwarves claim zones right now, not furniture. It's exactly the same system as bedrooms and offices.
You'd need to make a new system for tombs which allowed claimable furniture to work the way you want it to.
(Not that it wouldn't be a good idea, and there are several suggestions threads asking for it already).
Also eventual plans for a catacombs zone were mentioned in an earlier fotf:QuoteI was considering adding a 'catacomb' style zone that works like a dormitory for the dead. Have to tweak coffin 'ownership' a bit to make it work. (I don't remember if it technically counts as catacombs if the bodies aren't in the open rather than enclosed in individual caskets. We'd still be using individual caskets here, just no doors.)
Post by: FrankVill on March 10, 2023, 03:21:32 pm
And in the sound section, can we finally enjoy a soundtrack in Adventure mode?
Post by: stoyang on March 13, 2023, 07:04:01 pm
Post by: Putnam on March 13, 2023, 07:41:09 pm
Post by: stoyang on March 15, 2023, 08:17:10 pm
I've personally updated a lot of stuff to use C++11 and on lately, it wasn't that much of an undertaking. Why, I even have a bit of code (don't expect to see it in production for a looong time) that uses concepts!
That's existing to hear, I wonder, specifically for your work, have you been looking at the sdl3 development? I know its ongoing and lots of things will change between now and release, but are there things you are upgrading to sdl2 where you might have to rework them again later? Is there anything you can do to make the sdl3 conversion easier?
Post by: voliol on March 16, 2023, 01:16:49 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 16, 2023, 07:31:04 pm
I can't find any descriptions of insect blood being called ichor prior to 2012 and outside of DF.
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 16, 2023, 07:48:03 pm
Where did the idea come from to call insect blood "ichor", rather than simply calling it "hemolymph"? And what edition of DF did insect blood start being referred to as ichor?I've been playing for 10 years and it's been called ichor the whole time. I can't speak of anything before that.
I can't find any descriptions of insect blood being called ichor prior to 2012, and outside of DF for that matter.
Does Bay12 call dibs on the copyright? Or does it abstain from making such a claim?
Theres an interview with some comic book artist, in which a claim is made concerning their appropriation of the word "ichor," which is what the insect people in the comic call their own blood, as hemolymph sounded too formal for the writer/artist. The comic book was published back in 2018, but I'm dead certain DF has that beat by at least 6 years.
Post by: Schmaven on March 16, 2023, 08:23:59 pm
Edit: Not that Google is the untimate arbiter of truth, but "a watery discharge from a wound" sounds about right for how it appears in game
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 16, 2023, 11:17:39 pm
Doesn't ichor date back to the Greeks? Seems a bit of a stretch for someone to try and copywrite it.
The word does, but not the definition of it being applied by DF.
Ichor was the blood of the gods of mount Olympus. And as far as I am aware, the word ichor was not historically used in referring to mosquito and ant men blood.
Copyright is something that technically happens automatically, but I still went ahead and edited out the question anyway.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 17, 2023, 02:06:07 am
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 17, 2023, 10:25:55 pm
Look at these stats T. LOOK AT THEM! Its permanently crippled at least eight of my dwarves thus far, and it's only 9 years old.
The stupid thing's parents are dead, so I can't evict it. And it throws a fit like twenty times a month.
By the look of things, I'm stuck with "it" for another 9 years if the fort manages to survive this thing (Its only a matter of time before it gets a title.)
Why are you doing this to me? And when will you make it stop?!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 18, 2023, 02:32:01 am
Where did the idea come from to call insect blood "ichor", rather than simply calling it "hemolymph"? And what edition of DF did insect blood start being referred to as ichor?2010 DF calls insect blood Ichor in the raws.
I can't find any descriptions of insect blood being called ichor prior to 2012 and outside of DF.
Earlier versions don't have it in the raws, but they do have a tag "blood type=W" which presumably gives them white blood. Not sure if it calls it "ichor" in-game. Don't feel like insect hunting in DF 21
Post by: Hase. Oster. on March 19, 2023, 03:04:46 am
Also cannot help but note that there is nothing wrong with the keyboard-only controls, I am very much looking forward to their return (as a general way of playing, not the old key-bindings).
Post by: BlackAion on March 20, 2023, 02:08:16 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 20, 2023, 07:48:49 pm
Also will all beings created by the gods look the same from world to world or will they look different.In his Mythgen videos Toady talks about procedurally generated races, including sliders where you can decide how "fantasy" you want your world to be (with the lowest being all-human worlds, the highest as all-procgen and Tolkien-esque in the middle somewhere).
Or do you mean, goblins looking different from one another?
Post by: BlackAion on March 20, 2023, 08:53:18 pm
Also will all beings created by the gods look the same from world to world or will they look different.In his Mythgen videos Toady talks about procedurally generated races, including sliders where you can decide how "fantasy" you want your world to be (with the lowest being all-human worlds, the highest as all-procgen and Tolkien-esque in the middle somewhere).
Or do you mean, goblins looking different from one another?
Im asking if a dragon or elf or goblin etc. will look exactly the same from world to world after the Myth update. Or will they look different. Cause I dont know about the community but fighting a flying dragon literally bigger than the mountain your fort is in would be awesome. And Dragons can come in all shapes and sizes. Elves and most other fantasy races too.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dnd-amulets-of-saegkkal/images/f/f2/Zhengyi-wang-composition5-9-copy.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20191212143124 (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dnd-amulets-of-saegkkal/images/f/f2/Zhengyi-wang-composition5-9-copy.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20191212143124)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 21, 2023, 06:47:18 am
Ah, yes interesting. I seem to recall asking about that a long, long time ago. Will see if I can dig up the replay at the time (answer may have changed of course).Also will all beings created by the gods look the same from world to world or will they look different.In his Mythgen videos Toady talks about procedurally generated races, including sliders where you can decide how "fantasy" you want your world to be (with the lowest being all-human worlds, the highest as all-procgen and Tolkien-esque in the middle somewhere).
Or do you mean, goblins looking different from one another?
Im asking if a dragon or elf or goblin etc. will look exactly the same from world to world after the Myth update. Or will they look different. Cause I dont know about the community but fighting a flying dragon literally bigger than the mountain your fort is in would be awesome. And Dragons can come in all shapes and sizes. Elves and most other fantasy races too.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dnd-amulets-of-saegkkal/images/f/f2/Zhengyi-wang-composition5-9-copy.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20191212143124 (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dnd-amulets-of-saegkkal/images/f/f2/Zhengyi-wang-composition5-9-copy.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20191212143124)
-- oh, there we go (seems like a "possibly yep"):
Shonai_Dweller:
Quote
When mythgen is complete will the civilizations be limited to Dwarf, Elf, Human, Goblin, Random Monstrosity (depending on your 'random' setting) or are you looking into having it throw out existing races as civs too (gnome, minotaur, gorlak, mountain goat, etc)?
Whatsifsowhatsit
Quote
With the upcoming (probably in the far future, but even so) generalization of fantasy races into a system where you can be toward the realistic (just humans) or toward the totally fantastic (naught but procedurally generated creatures), will at some point the stock races also see some more variability? Currently (for example) goblins are rather evil and elves are immortal cannibals; this is certainly not true in all fantasy. In Warcraft, goblins are a bit sneaky and rather capitalistic, but not necessarily evil or violent, and I don't think the LotR elves eat their own dead. Sometimes elves also just live longer lives rather than being fully immortal (to death by aging). Will such alternate possibilities at any point be included, and if so, how much, if any, player control do you envision over such things?
Toady One:
I haven't thought very much about the mutation of the raws to allow things to become partially what they are -- the side project myth generator kind of adds magical properties while trying to respect some pre-existing data, but those problems will be much more difficult when I actually try to plug it into DF. It might be too difficult/etc. to rewind the raws, rather than having some sort of more unspecified version of each creature that it can use in place of the vanilla versions (which would amount to the dragon generator we'd wanted to experiment with in terms of random creature raw files). It's unclear what we'll end up with, but it's certainly in line with our "fantasy world simulator" goals.
Post by: BlackAion on March 21, 2023, 01:15:28 pm
Post by: voliol on March 21, 2023, 02:58:11 pm
Sorry for multiple questions but will we will be able to make larger worlds? Like as in worlds so large they dwarf Earth since that has happened a few times in fiction albeit rarely. HunterXHunter and Toriko specifically had worlds so ridiculously big that the areas in which humans other sentients lived in amounted to a few small islands in middle of a lake. Not an inland ocean but a lake.
I believe there is a computational issue to making the worlds too large, without making them largely empty. You see this already with a large world (as in the setting "large") which slows down quite a bit compared to a pocket world, as they have to compute everything happening outside of your fort, even if that simulation is lower fidelity. Large worlds are iirc somewhere around the size of New Zealand, so you could see how going to truly Earth-sized worlds and beyond pose an issue... as long as they have things going on in them. Toady has mentioned the possibility of infinite (!) realms, so arbitrarily large wilderness areas might not be too far out.
Post by: BlackAion on March 21, 2023, 08:19:42 pm
Sorry for multiple questions but will we will be able to make larger worlds? Like as in worlds so large they dwarf Earth since that has happened a few times in fiction albeit rarely. HunterXHunter and Toriko specifically had worlds so ridiculously big that the areas in which humans other sentients lived in amounted to a few small islands in middle of a lake. Not an inland ocean but a lake.
I believe there is a computational issue to making the worlds too large, without making them largely empty. You see this already with a large world (as in the setting "large") which slows down quite a bit compared to a pocket world, as they have to compute everything happening outside of your fort, even if that simulation is lower fidelity. Large worlds are iirc somewhere around the size of New Zealand, so you could see how going to truly Earth-sized worlds and beyond pose an issue... as long as they have things going on in them. Toady has mentioned the possibility of infinite (!) realms, so arbitrarily large wilderness areas might not be too far out.
So you mean like how in Minecraft, its technically infinite and but only computes the immediate area around you.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 21, 2023, 10:28:16 pm
Hmm. I don't see much slow down, if any, in playing on larger worlds. Much longer save/load times, sure. But actually during a game it starts off at the same speed as an embark in any other world, and slows down around the same time when the fortress becomes complex. There was an issue once with off-site births, but that was solved.Sorry for multiple questions but will we will be able to make larger worlds? Like as in worlds so large they dwarf Earth since that has happened a few times in fiction albeit rarely. HunterXHunter and Toriko specifically had worlds so ridiculously big that the areas in which humans other sentients lived in amounted to a few small islands in middle of a lake. Not an inland ocean but a lake.
I believe there is a computational issue to making the worlds too large, without making them largely empty. You see this already with a large world (as in the setting "large") which slows down quite a bit compared to a pocket world, as they have to compute everything happening outside of your fort, even if that simulation is lower fidelity. Large worlds are iirc somewhere around the size of New Zealand, so you could see how going to truly Earth-sized worlds and beyond pose an issue... as long as they have things going on in them. Toady has mentioned the possibility of infinite (!) realms, so arbitrarily large wilderness areas might not be too far out.
Post by: kontako on March 22, 2023, 06:53:22 pm
In DF Talk 4 you mention that when placing civilisations you begin with 20 individuals to ensure genetic diversity and also limit incestuous couplings.
Does this mean that the family trees of all (non-historical) individuals is tracked through world generation, and a family tree could theoretically be drawn between a descendant and two of the founding 20?
It was always an assumption of mine that population numbers and growth was simulated through some sort of equation.
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 23, 2023, 01:47:00 am
However, a historical figure has to be generated with some genes, so I would assume some kind of algorithm is used to generate the genes based on some pool (which presumably would be the genes of those 20 individuals), rather than actually generating a family tree for however many generations have passed since the start of time. The difference would be that a first generation hist fig might somehow get genes from more than two of the founders (but was the civ really founded in year 1, or was it just recorded at that time?).
Post by: kontako on March 23, 2023, 04:56:01 am
Only historical figures have information about their parents, and even in that case, this information may be missing because the parent(s) isn't itself a historical figure.
...
Ah, that's what I initially expected. Thanks for the clarification.
I was somewhat thrown off by these comments, taken from the transcript, referring to civilisations in world gen:
It's like 'pick a bunch of spots that are kind of good for say a goblin or a human and then pop twenty of them down and then just let them breed and build cities and spread at that point'. ... the game avoids certain inbreeding; you should never have brothers with brothers - I'm sorry, that's not even going to lead to a long line - I meant brothers and sisters, and half-brothers and half-sisters. It should avoid those, it should avoid parents and children
I thought to myself "What? Does the game really simulate every generation! (In the way of creating a lineage of genes for every family, rather than say, names and personalities for every individual)"
However, a historical figure has to be generated with some genes, so I would assume some kind of algorithm is used to generate the genes based on some pool (which presumably would be the genes of those 20 individuals), rather than actually generating a family tree for however many generations have passed since the start of time. The difference would be that a first generation hist fig might somehow get genes from more than two of the founders (but was the civ really founded in year 1, or was it just recorded at that time?).
This is the part I'm interested in, really. At the risk of having asked too many questions:
What determines what genes an individual can have? Is there a single gene pool available for members of a civilisation, or many? Or are gene pools more granular and differ based on site/ other entities?
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 23, 2023, 12:58:52 pm
Well, that's not really what you asked anyway...
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 23, 2023, 03:07:27 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 24, 2023, 03:23:49 pm
Evidently, when an artifact is either created or named out in the rain, even if the precipitation happens to be some kind of freakish weather, the artifact is liable to be permanently covered in whatever its reagents or pre-artifact item was coated in.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For my money, this is freakin' sweet!
Post by: TheFlame52 on March 24, 2023, 03:25:45 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on March 24, 2023, 03:30:03 pm
That's honestly incredible.
Indeed it is.
Post by: Vanzetti on March 25, 2023, 06:26:18 am
In the event that this 'feature' isn't intentional, can we keep it?
Evidently, when an artifact is either created or named out in the rain, even if the precipitation happens to be some kind of freakish weather, the artifact is liable to be permanently covered in whatever its reagents or pre-artifact item was coated in.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For my money, this is freakin' sweet!
By Armok, this is amazing. Can we use it to create a permanent coating of deadly poison?
Post by: delphonso on March 26, 2023, 12:09:36 am
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 26, 2023, 12:39:15 am
I suppose only if it were raining poison on the artifact creator.If you managed to grab a poisoned coated dagger from a kobold and then name it, I guess the poison would last forever.
Post by: delphonso on March 26, 2023, 01:05:11 am
Post by: Vanzetti on March 27, 2023, 05:08:13 am
I suppose only if it were raining poison on the artifact creator.
That was the idea. Send the moody dwarf into the fetid slime blizzard. Perhaps make him into an undead before, to make sure he "survives" the ordeal.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 27, 2023, 09:07:50 pm
Post by: Randomizer on March 29, 2023, 10:14:36 pm
Post by: Urist McSadist on March 30, 2023, 08:04:33 am
Post by: Beag on March 30, 2023, 09:15:26 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 31, 2023, 01:30:07 am
Post by: Toady One on April 04, 2023, 07:47:25 pm
Quote from: Immortal-D
- What news of new music & graphics for premium?
- Are friendly Necromancer Experiments supposed to be so common? I rarely see them invade, but a whole bunch show up at every Fort as scholars and visitors.
- The caverns still regularly see multiple hundreds of invaders pile up, regardless of caps. Is this strictly a difficulty setting, or something that needs further adjustment?
- Is the lack of caravans from your home civ after becoming the Mountainhome intentional?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8458570#msg8458570
- For graphics, we had some news about e.g. baby animals since this was announced. I think we've announced everything that's ready to go.
- Yeah, right now civs aren't particularly xenophobic about it even when their cultures would bend that way, so the friendly populations probably win out until the inevitable necromancer death of the universe if world gen runs too long. I don't recall if hostile experiment populations successfully replenish on their own currently either - necromancers don't mass produce them after w.g. which is an issue with sustainability.
- Still just broken.
- It might have been a zillion years ago when things were more simple, but it wouldn't make sense now.
Quote from: Jack_Caboose
Would it be possible to use letters as a backup for creature/item graphics if there's no graphical tile for it? Similar to what CDDA does.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8459782#msg8459782
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8459797#msg8459797
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8459808#msg8459808
Ziusudra found my recent response.
Quote from: FrankVill
No doubt Steam graphics will be reused in Adventure mode. But, is there still much to be done in the graphic section for this mode by artists?
And in the sound section, can we finally enjoy a soundtrack in Adventure mode?
Yeah, there are several things to do, and some of them aren't even decided. In the "definitely need it" category, we have the mid-level travel maps vs. towns/etc., and stuff like combat/movement indicators that we didn't need in fort mode. In the "we'll see how it plays out" category, we have stuff like conversation and wrestling and inventory interfaces, and animal people adventurers may need some attention. We're currently giving some attention to aboveground plants which are much more visible in adventure mode (but this will also impact aboveground fort farms of course.)
Adventure mode is going to need a whole rpg-style soundscape. We're seeking an audio engineer for example for this reason. Music is also a current discussion. It should be pretty exciting overall! And we'll see what comes back to fort mode as well, since sounds (not music) got the short end of the stick there.
Quote from: stoyang
I am curious about the overall development of Dwarf Fortress. You on occasion mention upgrading the compiler, using visual studio 20XX and the like. As a programmer I wanted to ask, what automated tools do you use to help keep the code healthy and stop bugs before they begin? Examples being clang-tidy, gtest, or GSL (from microsoft). On the same vein, have you updated any parts of the code recently to use more modern patterns from C++11/14/17/20 I know that this is a relatively large project and started long ago so I imagine some things like unique_ptr/optional are not heavily used.
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8460906#msg8460906
stoyang (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8461348#msg8461348
Putnam has done some things now, yeah. I was required to update to the latest enterprise MSVC since the game did well ha ha, so I'm up to date with handy tools. I've done some static analysis etc. though there are false positives and sometimes it dies, so it can be troublesome. I don't know the modern patterns myself so I'm not updating them. I think 'auto' was the last thing I started using for convenience and maybe that was C++11 or something.
Quote from: voliol
With the "baby update" either already being out by the time this is answered, or coming soon, are there any plans to go into the raws and give some creatures the CHILD token/child stages? Or is there some thematic meaning behind certain creatures being locked out of domestication due to being born as adults? The giant variants of animals which should metamorphose is understandable, since it'd presumably take a body rewrite to get proper giant cave tadpoles, and giant flea tadpoles. There is an argument for dragons too, since they are an ultimate beast of sorts. But crundles are less obvious.
I was surprised at a few of the ones that didn't have a CHILD tag when I was going through. I'm sure some of it just depends on who their "copy paste" parent was way back when they were created, and since children were basically irrelevant back then, it just didn't come up. I don't know which if any will be changed in the upcoming update, though, since I'm just going to go with the art I've received, and those assignments were entirely based on existing tags, though I possibly missed or added some by accident ha ha.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Where did the idea come from to call insect blood "ichor", rather than simply calling it "hemolymph"? And what edition of DF did insect blood start being referred to as ichor?
I can't find any descriptions of insect blood being called ichor prior to 2012 and outside of DF.
TheFlame52: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8461592#msg8461592
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8461602#msg8461602
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8461644#msg8461644
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8461665#msg8461665
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8461900#msg8461900
I don't have anything to add to the discussion since it has been so long now.
Quote from: Hase. Oster.
Are there any plans for fixing/improving the ASCII UI? Right now it looks like the graphical UI copied one-to-one, which doesn't really work (for example, the magnifying glass icon in the workshop menu makes zero sense in ASCII, a simple capital D for "Details" would work a hundred times better - and the list goes on and on).
'D' doesn't mean anything obvious either, really, at the first encounter. It also maybe implies a hotkey. It's all down to tooltips in the end, if we have little square buttons in ASCII, which we are stuck with for now and which are always pretty bad. Ultimately we may be able to decouple the one-to-one match up a bit, but that won't be possible if I can't maintain it.
Quote from: BlackAion
Im not sure this has ever been brought up but with the Myth and Magic release coming soonish will the gods and magic system allow for more varied, developed and complex megabeasts? Better yet will we get sentient races of megabeasts and/or primordial god-like beings that wander the world and create vague civilizations of their own? Also will all beings created by the gods look the same from world to world or will they look different.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8462497#msg8462497
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8462507#msg8462507
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8462580#msg8462580
To add to the replies, there's also that concept of the constrained dragon generator I've mentioned from time to time, and that applies to things like elves too, where there are lots of concepts that get mixed up, producing something 'elf'-like for a given setting. And there's the 'editor' style constraints, and the myth-imposed constraints. Once we have frameworks like that in place, we should be in a good position. We want to be able to build up raw definitions in various ways, with various stakeholders in the outcome - this seems possible anyway ha ha.
Quote from: BlackAion
Sorry for multiple questions but will we will be able to make larger worlds? Like as in worlds so large they dwarf Earth since that has happened a few times in fiction albeit rarely. HunterXHunter and Toriko specifically had worlds so ridiculously big that the areas in which humans other sentients lived in amounted to a few small islands in middle of a lake. Not an inland ocean but a lake.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8462662#msg8462662
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8462710#msg8462710
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8462724#msg8462724
Yeah there are technical issues, some parts of the game are slower, from army pathfinding to save/load from the raw size of them. Map rewrite should get us some concepts of infinite worlds, but there's a trade-off since the information can't all be stored, it doesn't solve pathing on its own, and nothing gets around the fundamental problems of procedural emptiness and repetition except for the hard work of adding variety.
Quote from: kontako
This may be an unnecessary throwback to a now defunct mechanic, and I may have misinterpreted what was said (as tends to happen), but I've been listening to old DF Talk recordings:
In DF Talk 4 you mention that when placing civilisations you begin with 20 individuals to ensure genetic diversity and also limit incestuous couplings.
Does this mean that the family trees of all (non-historical) individuals is tracked through world generation, and a family tree could theoretically be drawn between a descendant and two of the founding 20?
It was always an assumption of mine that population numbers and growth was simulated through some sort of equation.
-
This is the part I'm interested in, really. At the risk of having asked too many questions:
What determines what genes an individual can have? Is there a single gene pool available for members of a civilisation, or many? Or are gene pools more granular and differ based on site/ other entities?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8462972#msg8462972
kontako (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8463004#msg8463004
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8463084#msg8463084
TheFlame52: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8463107#msg8463107
Does DF Talk 4 predate the addition of entity populations? Non-historical individuals just have the population pool information.
Genetic information is stored in units for the historical figures at the end of world generation. Before that, hmm, I'm pretty sure it's still tracked. Yeah, there's a 'world gen genetics' structure in the historical figure that is used during world gen, and then passed over to anybody that survives to their unit definition. So theoretically family lines/characteristics/etc. are fully tracked once somebody becomes historical, although whatever deterioration that's undergone over the years I'm sure is a thing.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
In the event that this 'feature' isn't intentional, can we keep it?
Evidently, when an artifact is either created or named out in the rain, even if the precipitation happens to be some kind of freakish weather, the artifact is liable to be permanently covered in whatever its reagents or pre-artifact item was coated in.
My understanding is that that description is being pulled on the fly from the item linked to the artifact, which is maintained in memory to avoid "nemesis unit load failure" type messages. So if the item becomes uncoated with dwarf blood (by being washed, for example), I think it will then state instead that the item is coated with water in legends, until it dries off? Science welcome of course.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
In the Villains release, if, as an Adventurer, I manage to become a notorious villain, with a wide crime network, will the game be robust enough for me to retire and try to hunt down myself with a new character? Will the "clues" that should lead me to the villain I made exist?
For the first question, yeah, this'll almost certainly be the case, in the general sense of your old character being an ongoing villain that needs hunting. All of the data structures and information will be the same, and it'll be set up for the AI to just take over - all of your subordinates will already be using this code while you are still playing, presumably even producing clues that you can stupidly/ironically follow to hunt yourself. That's the hope/intention/design, anyway, and I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work though I'm sure some hiccups will arise. One I can think of is knowing the overall intent of your character - the game will act out their existing plots and relationships once you retire, but knowing broadly where they want thing to go needs some more info. This is a general issue with retirement overall I think we've mentioned before, but we haven't done anything with it aside from adding personalities and values to chargen.
For the second question, I can't say yet, since I'm not sure how that system is going to work at a granular level. Certainly any new plots your adventurer hatches will fall under the investigation system that exists, but it may be trickier to find clues for existing plots, although each of the subactors that continues operating will likely generate them as they advance the existing plots step by step. But getting that first lead may feel different for retired player villains, and it may take some time to find it. That's my intuition now anyway.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
After the Magic Update, will there be the possibility of superhero style worlds where each caster has unique powers?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8465004#msg8465004
Yeah, as PatrikLundell suggests, I think the "bloodline of one" extreme would get you here, or maybe the corruption mechanics as well (which would be related to a blessing-style system as well, which is virtually the same as the current necromancer system.) It just needs a reason to generate a unique thing and it'd do it. And it needs to understand if children are affected and you might want a 100% wobble on that to make those unique too (or less to make them related powers, which just takes us back to a typical bloodline scenario), seems feasible. There are some practical limits on the number of simultaneous systems, but power definitions are pretty light weight.
So overall, I feel like we'd start within range, and then subsequent changes/mods/editor profiles would land you around where you want to be.
Quote from: Beag
What do you think will be the hardest part of adventure mode to port to the Steam release?
Conversations and wrestling need updates and that'll take some UI work. Handling Z level display will be interesting since we're considering situations where you might want to see up hillsides for instance, and that could get a little weird sometimes when subterranean spaces or interiors compete. But the trickiest part will probably be balancing the amount of new additions/tweaks/etc. we feel are necessary for the mode to be in a good state, without sucking in all of the villains and army stuff.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 04, 2023, 08:16:09 pm
Post by: brewer bob on April 04, 2023, 09:20:04 pm
We're currently giving some attention to aboveground plants which are much more visible in adventure mode (but this will also impact aboveground fort farms of course.)
Any specific plans for this already? Like, will the whole plants and not just growths be gatherable, will seasons come into play and will it be changed how much you can gather from one plant tile (since now you can just pick vast amounts)? And/or will there be new uses for plants?
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 05, 2023, 01:24:49 am
Thanks for the answers!My impression is that the answer refers to graphics rather than functionality. A farming overhaul is probably way too much work to fit into something else (in this case Adventure Mode adaptation to new UI and graphics, with some minor general improvements/additions). I assume Toady will answer the question in a month, though.We're currently giving some attention to aboveground plants which are much more visible in adventure mode (but this will also impact aboveground fort farms of course.)
Any specific plans for this already? Like, will the whole plants and not just growths be gatherable, will seasons come into play and will it be changed how much you can gather from one plant tile (since now you can just pick vast amounts)? And/or will there be new uses for plants?
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 05, 2023, 01:55:11 am
Post by: voliol on April 05, 2023, 03:06:53 am
Is there a possibility of getting starting scenarios or human/elf/goblin "forts" before the map rewrite? How much have you thought about this and how much might these be differentiated from dwarf mode? These can be modded in fairly easily but it's just dwarf mode in a fancy hat; is properly intergrating non-dwarf forts "low-hanging fruit" or do you intend to modify the gameplay enough that it's a bigger job?
Considering starting scenarios is a whole arc after myths&magic, I imagine they have too many ideas to be able to cram in just a few before the map rewrite.
Post by: Vattic on April 05, 2023, 07:37:56 am
As things stand grasses can have their growths (flowers and buds) displayed as a layer above the base tiles. This does not work for other plants from what I can tell?
Spoiler: examples (click to show/hide)
Strawberries do kind of have their growth displayed, but in an unusual way. They have two sprites, one with and one without the fruit. Using SHRUB_PICKED for the sprite to use when it has no strawberries. Before they have the growth they are using SHRUB_PICKED, once grown SHRUB. Gathering destroys the plant so SHRUB_PICKED is never actually used for the picked plant.
Spoiler: example (click to show/hide)
My first question is whether you plan to allow us to specify graphics for each individual growth as with grass? This is preferable in my opinion as it allows for plants with multiple harvestable growths to display correctly and for plants to flower or display other growths independently. I had assumed this was the case having seen grass, but the way strawberries have been handled makes me wonder.
My second question is whether you intend to implement graphics for dead plants as in the text mode? As things stand you can't tell without mousing over them. It's annoying when designating individual plants for gathering.
Third is the same, but for specifying graphics for dry and dead grass?
Post by: brewer bob on April 05, 2023, 08:14:28 am
My impression is that the answer refers to graphics rather than functionality. A farming overhaul is probably way too much work to fit into something else (in this case Adventure Mode adaptation to new UI and graphics, with some minor general improvements/additions). I assume Toady will answer the question in a month, though.We're currently giving some attention to aboveground plants which are much more visible in adventure mode (but this will also impact aboveground fort farms of course.)
Any specific plans for this already? Like, will the whole plants and not just growths be gatherable, will seasons come into play and will it be changed how much you can gather from one plant tile (since now you can just pick vast amounts)? And/or will there be new uses for plants?
Oh, I somehow missed the whole graphics part from the question, my bad. But regardless, still asking the question. :)
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 06, 2023, 01:17:19 am
Is there a possibility of getting starting scenarios or human/elf/goblin "forts" before the map rewrite? How much have you thought about this and how much might these be differentiated from dwarf mode? These can be modded in fairly easily but it's just dwarf mode in a fancy hat; is properly intergrating non-dwarf forts "low-hanging fruit" or do you intend to modify the gameplay enough that it's a bigger job?The "low hanging fruit" version of non dwarf fortresses is the modding that's currently possible, and, as mentioned, it's rather unsatisfactory. I don't agree with @Voliol, though, as non dwarven forts ought to appear in the Myth & Magic arc. As that arc intends to support mundane worlds (i.e. no dwarves), it has to support human fortresses at the very minimum, and it also has to support any playable race generated by more extreme settings. At that point, it's a fairly small step to require it to support any civilization capable race (not that multi race support is small, but the step from supporting all generated "primary" races with all their variations, to supporting "secondary" ones as well is probably small, and at that point the distinction disappears: any generated civ building race would be available for starting race selection).
Note that this isn't necessarily going to be present at the first release of the arc, but may be improved gradually. I could imagine a process where the first release only implements the current mundanity setting and only have dwarves playable with the following releases focusing on some other aspect such as magic. In a later sub arc fully mundane humans might be introduced (beside the dwarves), followed by the gradual implementation of varying mundanity levels, for instance.
In that framing, the fortress would be the current generic "new colony of unspecified kind" scenario, where the difference would be in what race you play (which should influence what buildings look like, at least graphically, and what the race can produce from its workshops as a minimum: it might also affect mining and tree house construction, for instance). Starting scenarios, on the other hand, would deal with how the fortress relates to its parent civ, playing differently based on its type. That, in turn, may involve different restrictions for different races (you'd hardly set up an elven logging camp, for an obvious example). Starting scenarios might add and remove capabilities to fortresses beyond the race ones when they are implemented.
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on April 06, 2023, 10:00:46 am
Post by: Vanzetti on April 06, 2023, 01:23:42 pm
Post by: BlackAion on April 06, 2023, 01:24:16 pm
To add to the replies, there's also that concept of the constrained dragon generator I've mentioned from time to time, and that applies to things like elves too, where there are lots of concepts that get mixed up, producing something 'elf'-like for a given setting. And there's the 'editor' style constraints, and the myth-imposed constraints. Once we have frameworks like that in place, we should be in a good position. We want to be able to build up raw definitions in various ways, with various stakeholders in the outcome - this seems possible anyway ha ha.
I see. Well Im glad its a possibility lol.
Yeah there are technical issues, some parts of the game are slower, from army pathfinding to save/load from the raw size of them. Map rewrite should get us some concepts of infinite worlds, but there's a trade-off since the information can't all be stored, it doesn't solve pathing on its own, and nothing gets around the fundamental problems of procedural emptiness and repetition except for the hard work of adding variety.
Hmm. Would it be possible to cheat and use the constrained Dragon/Elf/etc. generators you mentioned to do the bulk of the work then going in to add the finishing touches to it? Like for example say you had a constrained Giant generator which produces a giant of some description. You could then just take that data and refurbish a little, giving it keywords like can build civilizations, cast magic etc. then plop it somewhere in the arbitrarily large wilderness.
Additionally, couldnt we also have the gods be the generators of Variety? In-game they could be filling up the procedural emptiness with creations/magics/landforms etc. during the Age of Myths. Shouldnt be a problem with technical issues as the game wont keep track of it, just notes that something happened there.
Additionally additionally, would it be possible to code in an in-game file compressor to hold all that data?
Post by: BOOXMOWO on April 06, 2023, 02:33:23 pm
What exactly does the "Vampire Migrant Fraction" do? I can assume it prevents vampires from coming to your fortress, but where does it factor in and how many more vampires do you get at the minimum setting of 1 in comparison to the default setting of 100?
Which of the economic/landholder triggers are needed for the monarch's arrival? Or is that a completely independent threshold?
I think you've implied this before, but just to confirm: Are all three of "Forgotten Beast Sensitivity", "Forgotten Beast Irritation Minimum", and "Forgotten Beast Wealth Divisor" also being used to control the rate of Cavern Dweller invasions?
Post by: Judicator on April 09, 2023, 07:11:50 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on April 11, 2023, 01:16:36 am
Is it intentional for the elves to count cavern trees as their own, or is it a bug?
As far as anyone is aware it continues to be a feature.
https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2932
Reported on Mantis in 2010, with tags Intentional/Expected?
Post by: clinodev on April 11, 2023, 02:22:40 am
Is it intentional for the elves to count cavern trees as their own, or is it a bug?
As far as anyone is aware it continues to be a feature.
https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2932
Reported on Mantis in 2010, with tags Intentional/Expected?
Ah, but that's a volunteer manager's tag, not a reply from Tarn, although it may be inspired by a developer utterance elsewhere that I'm unaware of.
I think following the infamous Lycanthrope Declaration, any new "bug or feature" question is presumptively valid.
Post by: Elf Lord on April 11, 2023, 09:43:57 am
Post by: voliol on April 11, 2023, 10:21:36 am
I understand you have very little way of knowing but do you believe myth and magic will release this decade? Simply curious.
Remember to mark questions to Toady in lime green! (I did it for you in case you don't frequent this thread)
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 11, 2023, 05:32:57 pm
I understand you have very little way of knowing but do you believe myth and magic will release this decade? Simply curious.We have a whole thread on guessing when the myth and magic release will come. That's full of people who have no way of knowing. :)
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172494.msg7879631#msg7879631
Post by: Vattic on April 16, 2023, 02:36:53 pm
Do you plan to bring back a similar level of flexibility that has been lost in the move to premium. Specifically:
a) the ability to set graphics for individual professions. Layered conditions only include broad categories that don't even contain a bunch of professions such as doctors, bards, mercenaries, nobles.
b) the ability to set graphics for the different soldier types: recruit, swordsman, elite swordsman etc. This can be somewhat achieved using layers and item wielded conditions, but not for wrestlers or the elites.
c) same, but for some of the stranger ones: ghosts, prisoners, slaves, adventurers etc.
Post by: Listyg on April 19, 2023, 05:22:28 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 19, 2023, 07:05:31 am
Any hope that export legends functionality will be added to Steam version?The convention used on the forum is to mark questions to Toady in Lime Green to make it easy for him to find the questions when it's time to answer them (you can update your post to do that, rather than add a redundant post).
As far as I am aware, the reason the XML export is missing is that it was one of the things that had to be cut to get the Premium release out in a timely manner, but as far as I know it's intended to be restored (it's currently missing in both the Classic and Premium version, regardless of Premium version vendor).
Post by: Silverwing235 on April 19, 2023, 09:15:51 am
Adventure mode is going to need a whole rpg-style soundscape. We're seeking an audio engineer for example for this reason. ]Music is also a current discussion. It should be pretty exciting overall! And we'll see what comes back to fort mode as well, since sounds (not music) got the short end of the stick there.
Emphasis mine… Has the notion of, I suppose: ‘procedural asset reuse’ (that is, apropos musical forms from any given worldgen) been brought up at all yet in that discussion? (Not that I have any involvement, but; Ad hoc orchestral composition example: tracks 1 and 5 are irrelevant, furthermore I'm told it is, or was, a rough draft: https://soundcloud.com/musicmastermsh/sets/songs-of-zavazsil (https://soundcloud.com/musicmastermsh/sets/songs-of-zavazsil))
Post by: DPh Kraken on April 20, 2023, 02:51:53 am
The example of cloud dwarves and cloud dragons is a strong example of a shared spherical association. There's a pretty strong cultural background of what a creature associated with the sphere of SKY would be. Power of flight (either innate or as a spell), tissue layers could be given air-themed colors like sky blue or clear, any other interactions they can access would typically be either centered in the sphere of SKY or allowed to trickle in from related spheres.
1. "Cloud dwarves" seems like a question of making the data structure for creature/object variations robust enough to have spherical and arbitrary tagging. Will we see the raw-defined creature variation object be expanded to serve the purpose of mythically-directed randomness in this way?
Like the idea of a single variation comprising [CE_ADD_TAG:CAN_SPEAK] + [CE_ADD_TAG:SKILL_LEARN_RATES:SPEAKING:200] given the sphere of SPEECH, when a creature is speciated to fit the magics of the speech domain. Likewise, different "dragon" abilities and bodies could be stored in the creature variation file with the creature definition calling those, in a way that the world options can briefly look at the creature files to make buttons for.
Perhaps some way to discriminate variant generation by creature tags, that way we don't get redundant silliness like "talking dwarves" and "dark goblins" that describe what they already do. "Bardic dwarves" sounds more apt for an already-speaking creature and is more a flavor matter, but unless the concept of a goblin in DF is reworked to not always originate from dark pits there's not really any meaningful separation between a dark goblin and a banally evil regular goblin. Likewise, you'd need elves that don't live in forests for "wood elf" to be a meaningful discriminator, etc.
2. Will we see the entire concept of a religious sphere also become opened up to modding?
I know sub-domains of ANIMALS was talked about, but the idea of adding new spheres seems like something modders could do easily if the data structure was editable. The god descriptions and language symbols, and hooks in the code to link them with forces and spherical variants.
3. I'm interested in the "humans, and one to two other things" scenario because it means worldgen-relevant procedural entities to elevate certain types of creatures. There are plenty of intelligent creatures already with well-defined associations, how might that be reflected when the game gets around to generating an entity definition for them?
Satyrs love music and parties, gnomes can go in both really dwarfy (the tinker archetype) and really elfy (mushroom houses/"underground wood forest retreat") directions with that Paracelsian link to earth, and animal people should at least pay lip service to their ecological niche (diet and biome primarily). Gorlaks are described as good, so it'd be unusual having them originate a cruel and selfish civilization.
We also can sorta expect spherical associations to loop back around from flavoring original entities to modifying vanilla ones in the same way. Dark elves, if they're more broadly embodying the concept of evil rather than benign non-illumination, would behave in a certain general way. We'd expect them to dwell in cavern layers and dark pits, use evil words in their names, enjoy cruelty and hostility, just basically follow the goblin blueprint. Not all entity changes are created equal, as I'd imagine fire dwarves might be more passionate and prefer settling in warm biomes, but the subspecies is similar enough to integrate with the mountainhome unless there's a cultural rift with ice dwarves.
(edit: removed some further technical ramblings about implementing object variations in relation to mythgen)
Post by: ryno on April 22, 2023, 06:28:02 am
Would you consider implementing powder physics? I feel that Dwarf Fortress is known for it's simulation systems, but a lot of what is going on is not obvious. Physics simulations however are a very upfront way to reveal complexity, and they can be amazing fun. I consider the water physics to be one of the strongest features of the game, and I'm wondering what your thoughts on sand physics are because I feel this is a core building block of a sandbox environment.
Post by: Coolie on April 22, 2023, 03:58:52 pm
Would you consider implementing powder physics? I feel that Dwarf Fortress is known for it's simulation systems, but a lot of what is going on is not obvious. Physics simulations however are a very upfront way to reveal complexity, and they can be amazing fun. I consider the water physics to be one of the strongest features of the game, and I'm wondering what your thoughts on sand physics are because I feel this is a core building block of a sandbox environment.
Powder physics in deserts would be really neat, and pose a real threat as I imagine it's pretty hard to build an underground fort on shifting sand dunes.
Post by: Putnam on April 23, 2023, 10:06:01 pm
Any hope that export legends functionality will be added to Steam version?
yes, it's just a matter of adding a button and i've already successfully added it back as a nice threaded thing a while back, it's just a matter of getting the UI together
Post by: dikbutdagrate on April 23, 2023, 10:21:56 pm
In DF Talk #28, you brought up "[adjective] dwarves" as a creature variant originating from mythgen.
The example of cloud dwarves and cloud dragons is a strong example of a shared spherical association. There's a pretty strong cultural background of what a creature associated with the sphere of SKY would be. Power of flight (either innate or as a spell), tissue layers could be given air-themed colors like sky blue or clear, any other interactions they can access would typically be either centered in the sphere of SKY or allowed to trickle in from related spheres.
1. This seems like a question of making the data structure for creature/object variations robust enough to have spherical and arbitrary tagging. Will we see the raw-defined creature variation object be expanded to serve the purpose of directed randomness in this way?
Like the idea of a single variation comprising [CE_ADD_TAG:CAN_SPEAK] + [CE_ADD_TAG:SKILL_LEARN_RATES:SPEAKING:200] given the sphere of SPEECH, when a creature is speciated to fit the magics of the speech domain. Likewise, different "dragon" abilities and bodies could be stored in the creature variation file with the creature definition calling those in a way that the world options can briefly look at the creature files to make buttons for.
2. Will we see the concept of a religious sphere also become opened up to modding? I know sub-domains of ANIMALS was talked about, but the idea of adding new spheres seems like something modders could do easily if the data structure was editable. The god descriptions and language symbols, and a new substructure for putting together creature variants.
Some way to discriminate variant generation by creature tags, that way we don't get redundant silliness like "talking dwarves" and "dark goblins" that describe what they already do. "Bardic dwarves" sounds more apt for an already-speaking creature and is more a flavor matter, but unless the concept of a goblin in DF is reworked to not always originate from dark pits there's not really any meaningful separation between a dark goblin and a banally evil regular goblin. Likewise, you'd need elves that don't live in forests for "wood elf" to be a meaningful discriminator, etc.
3. I'm also interested in the "humans, and one to two other things" scenario because it means either original entities or some sort of defined structure to elevate certain types of creatures. There are a couple of non-civilized mythical creatures in the game, and there's different attributes that would be expected of them. Satyrs love music and parties, gnomes can go in both really dwarfy (the tinker archetype) and really elfy (mushroom houses/"underground wood forest retreat") directions with that Paracelsian link to earth, and animal people should at least pay lip service to their ecological niche (diet and biome primarily). Gorlaks are described as good, so it'd be unusual having them originate a cruel and selfish civilization.
We also can sorta expect what a spherical variant of an entity would look like. Dark elves, if they're more broadly embodying the concept of evil rather than benign non-illumination, would behave in a certain general way. We'd expect them to dwell in cavern layers and dark pits, use evil words in their names, enjoy cruelty and hostility, just basically follow the goblin blueprint. Not all entity changes are created equal, as I'd imagine fire dwarves might be more passionate and prefer settling in warm biomes, but the subspecies is similar enough to integrate with the mountainhome unless there's a cultural rift with ice dwarves.
4. Fully procedural creatures, to me, seem like they'd benefit from a lot of the same variety that humans would, interestingly enough. I guess you'd need as much information you can in generating their entity definition, and without editing something that exists you'd need the spheres and the creation myth to really guide what it starts as. I guess even single entity tokens could be contextualized in the mythgen "such and such god revealed to this race the secret of brewing" and that would add the brewer job and the brewing reactions
Having such a huge list of associations is an argument against opening up the spheres, but would it be an extensible dev foundation to use object variations (in the specific technical sense we have now) as a way of grouping entity tokens mythologically? Not moving the entire entity def to applying variations, because that just reinvents tags, but things like making the various alloys is something that wants to be grouped. I don't want to learn about how the dwarves learned to make rose gold twice just because there's two separate reactions for it, it makes more sense that civs would learn about alloying metals as a whole
(https://i.imgur.com/tPDfllg.jpg)
Being concise tends to be helpful. Also, I'm not sure #3 is even a question.
Post by: Miuramir on April 25, 2023, 02:12:58 am
Doesn't ichor date back to the Greeks? Seems a bit of a stretch for someone to try and copywrite it.
The word does, but not the definition of it being applied by DF.
Ichor was the blood of the gods of mount Olympus. And as far as I am aware, the word ichor was not historically used in referring to mosquito and ant men blood. ...
"Ichor" was used at least as early as H.P. Lovecraft's "The Dunwich Horror" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dunwich_Horror) (written 1928, published April 1929) to describe the strange bodily fluids of chimeric combinations of human, creature, and otherworldly horrors. This work is generally believed to be out of copyright in the US; as while it is still a year or so out from automatic public domain status, it would have had to be renewed, and several searches have found no evidence that it was. (See Copyright status of works by H. P. Lovecraft (https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Copyright_status_of_works_by_H._P._Lovecraft) for some discussion.) I'm not really a Lovecraft scholar, so I'm not sure which work of his or his circle was the first to use it in this way; horror writers of the period borrowed heavily from each other; so the actual source of this could be considerably earlier.
It was commonly enough used word in horror, fantasy, and gaming that by the mid-1980s it was starting to become a cliche; a series of Mythos-inspired ink prints "H. P. Lovecraft: Illustrated in Ichor" from 1984 is but one example. That said, the evolved sense of it to describe circulating bodily fluids that were not ordinary blood, and usually nasty if not actually toxic, was useful enough that even Ursula K. Le Guin decrying its use as "the infallible touchstone of the seventh-rate [writer]" in 1985 didn't stop gamers in particular from continuing to use the term.
Post by: sofanthiel on April 27, 2023, 01:59:49 pm
First and foremost, I just wanna say that I, like many many others, am a big fan of yours and your creation. Now, the questions:
On the development page and in some DF talks, you've mentioned that you're planning to add ships and other moving fortress parts to the game. My question is: will boats and other vehicles be modular and customizable objects that the player can construct block-by-block, or rather fixed structures, that are simply big blueprints the player adds resources to until the desired building is finished (like the trade depot, for example)?
You've also mentioned that you have plans to implement a society system into the game that reworks justice, economics, and culture. Will the society system affect individual creature morals? For example, it is currently impossible for dwarfs to butcher sentient beings. Could a civilization of cannibalistic dwarfs that get mood buffs from doing the currently forbidden things be generated? Will these systems be flexible, or stay the same for the sake of preventing the possibility bad PR (from what I've read, the mermaid thing could be considered an example of this)?
While both of these, if ever to happen, will come in a far far future, and are most likely subject to change, I'm still curious about your current plans/thoughts :D
Post by: Bumber on April 27, 2023, 02:27:26 pm
will boats and other vehicles be modular and customizable objects that the player can construct block-by-block
Yes.
Quote
Will the society system affect individual creature morals?
Yes.
Post by: WereDragon on April 28, 2023, 11:58:07 am
Also is there any chance of marksdwarves using melee weapons that they are given as a backup? I.E if an enemy manages to reach my marksdwarves, but they have a hammer, would you want them to use the hammer, or would you want them to be ranged only troops vulnerable in melee.
Post by: cliff987 on April 29, 2023, 05:04:12 am
Post by: voliol on April 29, 2023, 05:26:39 am
I apologize if this has been asked, but will there be an option for legacy controls? I can't really play the new version. Too many years with the old. I know that's a me problem, but figured might as well throw my two bits in.
Welcome... back! to the forum cliff! Questions to Toady in this thread should be marked in lime green so he can find them easily. Legacy controls as the same key-bindings as before are not planned, but keyboard support either hybrid or full is for some unknown date.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 29, 2023, 06:35:15 am
After watching your interview with blind, do you mind elaborating a little more on how we are going to deal with assigning ammo to squads of marksdwarves?You'll want to move that [ / color ] tag to the end of your text to make it correctly Lime Green.
Also is there any chance of marksdwarves using melee weapons that they are given as a backup? I.E if an enemy manages to reach my marksdwarves, but they have a hammer, would you want them to use the hammer, or would you want them to be ranged only troops vulnerable in melee.[/colour]
(As I've done here).
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 29, 2023, 12:34:54 pm
I apologize if this has been asked, but will there be an option for legacy controls? I can't really play the new version. Too many years with the old. I know that's a me problem, but figured might as well throw my two bits in.There are a few reasons for why restoration of keyboard control won't use the same key bindings:
- The keyboard controls were very inconsistent (a number of different schemes for what was essentially the same control action used in different places), and that's rather messy for newcomers and not great overall.
- Functionality has been shifted around, so some new functionality isn't really the same as any of the old ones. Binding the old key to to something that's sort of the closest to an old usage isn't exactly great.
- When restoring keyboard control (it was intended to be almost entirely scrapped last summer) for a new audience provides an opportunity to not only consolidate "the same" actions to use the same keys throughout, but also to reshuffle keys bindings to keys that make more overall sense currently, rather than using whatever free key that sort of could be connected to some new functionality when that was added.
Will it be a pain to relearn keys? Yes.
Will it result in usage of muscle memory that's no longer correct for years to come? Yes.
Will it be better in the long run even for dinosaurs like me? Yes, unless the ability to form new memories have failed, in which case the game will probably be unplayable anyway.
I think it will be possible to change the key bindings, but I suspect it won't be worth the effort unless you need to because your (non US) keyboard doesn't provide a reasonable access to some keys (like everything that's used to "build" composite characters out of a modifier and a base character, like e.g. î on mine, where the circumflex isn't printable with a single key press, at least with normal keyboard processing routines).
Post by: cliff987 on April 29, 2023, 02:14:31 pm
I apologize if this has been asked, but will there be an option for legacy controls? I can't really play the new version. Too many years with the old. I know that's a me problem, but figured might as well throw my two bits in.There are a few reasons for why restoration of keyboard control won't use the same key bindings:
- The keyboard controls were very inconsistent (a number of different schemes for what was essentially the same control action used in different places), and that's rather messy for newcomers and not great overall.
- Functionality has been shifted around, so some new functionality isn't really the same as any of the old ones. Binding the old key to to something that's sort of the closest to an old usage isn't exactly great.
- When restoring keyboard control (it was intended to be almost entirely scrapped last summer) for a new audience provides an opportunity to not only consolidate "the same" actions to use the same keys throughout, but also to reshuffle keys bindings to keys that make more overall sense currently, rather than using whatever free key that sort of could be connected to some new functionality when that was added.
Will it be a pain to relearn keys? Yes.
Will it result in usage of muscle memory that's no longer correct for years to come? Yes.
Will it be better in the long run even for dinosaurs like me? Yes, unless the ability to form new memories have failed, in which case the game will probably be unplayable anyway.
I think it will be possible to change the key bindings, but I suspect it won't be worth the effort unless you need to because your (non US) keyboard doesn't provide a reasonable access to some keys (like everything that's used to "build" composite characters out of a modifier and a base character, like e.g. î on mine, where the circumflex isn't printable with a single key press, at least with normal keyboard processing routines).
I appreciate the reply, I understand the reason for the changes. I'd still like a classic mode, though, and would like to hear from toady specifically. Until then, I'll be using old versions. I COULD probably manage on a version that didn't need the mouse.
Also, you didn't really need to make the quip about memory. It's rude, and some folks do have memory issues.
In addition requesting a classic control schema doesn't take anything from the game, though it DOES require dev time, which I understand. I'd like to think the added utility to what had been an ascii, keyboard based game for over a decade would be nice, bring folks into the newer versions, and keep the spirit of the original around for a while longer.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 30, 2023, 01:50:54 am
Once keyboard support has been restored, assuming key rebinding is supported, it might be possible for interested parties to come up with a way to create a "classic" key rebinding tool that recreated the old bindings as much as possible. However, it might be tricky to change UI movement keys "back" if it isn't possible to bind the "same" function to different keys in different contexts.
Also, I personally think it's probably better to bite the bullet and relearn a new scheme rather than relearn a set that's partially new.
Post by: Schmaven on April 30, 2023, 11:54:09 am
Once keyboard support has been restored, assuming key rebinding is supported, it might be possible for interested parties to come up with a way to create a "classic" key rebinding tool that recreated the old bindings as much as possible. However, it might be tricky to change UI movement keys "back" if it isn't possible to bind the "same" function to different keys in different contexts.
Although the process to get to them is often different, some of the same keys have been retained for various workshops and furniture in the premium version. I imagine it's only a matter of time before more complete keyboard support is added, different though they may be. I suppose there may still be technical hurdles to be overcome in that area. For me, the seahorse sprites make learning the new keys worth it.
Do you plan to add more keyboard control before or after the adventure mode update?
Post by: Urist McSadist on April 30, 2023, 12:11:32 pm
1.Are proper gladiatorial fights that don't make the watchers scared, and are actually entertaining for them a planned feature?
2.Just how in depth are you planning to make magic research?
Post by: Putnam on April 30, 2023, 01:12:20 pm
I apologize if this has been asked, but will there be an option for legacy controls? I can't really play the new version. Too many years with the old. I know that's a me problem, but figured might as well throw my two bits in.There are a few reasons for why restoration of keyboard control won't use the same key bindings:
- The keyboard controls were very inconsistent (a number of different schemes for what was essentially the same control action used in different places), and that's rather messy for newcomers and not great overall.
- Functionality has been shifted around, so some new functionality isn't really the same as any of the old ones. Binding the old key to to something that's sort of the closest to an old usage isn't exactly great.
- When restoring keyboard control (it was intended to be almost entirely scrapped last summer) for a new audience provides an opportunity to not only consolidate "the same" actions to use the same keys throughout, but also to reshuffle keys bindings to keys that make more overall sense currently, rather than using whatever free key that sort of could be connected to some new functionality when that was added.
Will it be a pain to relearn keys? Yes.
Will it result in usage of muscle memory that's no longer correct for years to come? Yes.
Will it be better in the long run even for dinosaurs like me? Yes, unless the ability to form new memories have failed, in which case the game will probably be unplayable anyway.
I think it will be possible to change the key bindings, but I suspect it won't be worth the effort unless you need to because your (non US) keyboard doesn't provide a reasonable access to some keys (like everything that's used to "build" composite characters out of a modifier and a base character, like e.g. î on mine, where the circumflex isn't printable with a single key press, at least with normal keyboard processing routines).
I appreciate the reply, I understand the reason for the changes. I'd still like a classic mode, though, and would like to hear from toady specifically. Until then, I'll be using old versions. I COULD probably manage on a version that didn't need the mouse.
Also, you didn't really need to make the quip about memory. It's rude, and some folks do have memory issues.
In addition requesting a classic control schema doesn't take anything from the game, though it DOES require dev time, which I understand. I'd like to think the added utility to what had been an ascii, keyboard based game for over a decade would be nice, bring folks into the newer versions, and keep the spirit of the original around for a while longer.
It's been gone over quite a lot in various places: no, there won't be a classic mode, maintaining two completely independent UIs for the game at the same time is not feasible. To say it doesn't take anything away ignores just how much goes into keeping something like that up.
Post by: cliff987 on April 30, 2023, 08:02:38 pm
I apologize if this has been asked, but will there be an option for legacy controls? I can't really play the new version. Too many years with the old. I know that's a me problem, but figured might as well throw my two bits in.There are a few reasons for why restoration of keyboard control won't use the same key bindings:
- The keyboard controls were very inconsistent (a number of different schemes for what was essentially the same control action used in different places), and that's rather messy for newcomers and not great overall.
- Functionality has been shifted around, so some new functionality isn't really the same as any of the old ones. Binding the old key to to something that's sort of the closest to an old usage isn't exactly great.
- When restoring keyboard control (it was intended to be almost entirely scrapped last summer) for a new audience provides an opportunity to not only consolidate "the same" actions to use the same keys throughout, but also to reshuffle keys bindings to keys that make more overall sense currently, rather than using whatever free key that sort of could be connected to some new functionality when that was added.
Will it be a pain to relearn keys? Yes.
Will it result in usage of muscle memory that's no longer correct for years to come? Yes.
Will it be better in the long run even for dinosaurs like me? Yes, unless the ability to form new memories have failed, in which case the game will probably be unplayable anyway.
I think it will be possible to change the key bindings, but I suspect it won't be worth the effort unless you need to because your (non US) keyboard doesn't provide a reasonable access to some keys (like everything that's used to "build" composite characters out of a modifier and a base character, like e.g. î on mine, where the circumflex isn't printable with a single key press, at least with normal keyboard processing routines).
I appreciate the reply, I understand the reason for the changes. I'd still like a classic mode, though, and would like to hear from toady specifically. Until then, I'll be using old versions. I COULD probably manage on a version that didn't need the mouse.
Also, you didn't really need to make the quip about memory. It's rude, and some folks do have memory issues.
In addition requesting a classic control schema doesn't take anything from the game, though it DOES require dev time, which I understand. I'd like to think the added utility to what had been an ascii, keyboard based game for over a decade would be nice, bring folks into the newer versions, and keep the spirit of the original around for a while longer.
It's been gone over quite a lot in various places: no, there won't be a classic mode, maintaining two completely independent UIs for the game at the same time is not feasible. To say it doesn't take anything away ignores just how much goes into keeping something like that up.
Well, I did acknowledge that it takes dev time and resources. Interesting to say it's not feasible. Do you work on the game? Do you have a source for it not being worked on? I've seen otherwise from a few secondhand folks, which is why I'm attempting to go to the horses (toads) mouth.
*Edit: I see now that you are the other primary dev on the project, can I assume that the "No" is official and I can just contentedly remain on .47?
Post by: Schmaven on April 30, 2023, 08:30:37 pm
Interesting to say it's not feasible.I suppose what you mean by feasible, is possible? Many things are possible, in that they can be done. But feasible implies that it is also easy and convenient to do. Ensuring that new features work in 2 entirely different user interfaces sounds to me like a good deal more work than just a single user interface; which I believe is what makes it not easy or convenient to maintain (ie. not feasible).
One day, there may be a mod that re-creates the old UI however.
Post by: cliff987 on April 30, 2023, 08:38:02 pm
Interesting to say it's not feasible.I suppose what you mean by feasible, is possible? Many things are possible, in that they can be done. But feasible implies that it is also easy and convenient to do. Ensuring that new features work in 2 entirely different user interfaces sounds to me like a good deal more work than just a single user interface; which I believe is what makes it not easy or convenient to maintain (ie. not feasible).
One day, there may be a mod that re-creates the old UI however.
I do hope that such a mod does become available. I suppose the common understanding of feasible would be that it can be accomplished in a reasonable time with a reasonable amount of resources in order to achieve a set goal. More squishy language but it's a subjective term in any case. I'm not unfamiliar with coding, having done some work in C, LISP, and C# (mostly a long time ago and I am not particularly good at it), and I understand that the depth of complexity involved with working on a project of DF's scope. I don't completely, however, understand the frothing and gnashing that comes up when people suggest this. I'm not attacking the work that has been done or the choices made. It's difficult, I understand. I understand, too, if resources will not be allocated to it. I'm also sad. I'm glad I have a semi-official answer, though.
Post by: clinodev on April 30, 2023, 10:01:45 pm
Likewise, finishing up Classic "ascii" mode, zooming and so on.
Any estimate on when those will get some focus time?
Post by: dikbutdagrate on May 01, 2023, 12:43:42 am
Well, I did acknowledge that it takes dev time and resources. Interesting to say it's not feasible. Do you work on the game? Do you have a source for it not being worked on? I've seen otherwise from a few secondhand folks, which is why I'm attempting to go to the horses (toads) mouth.
*Edit: I see now that you are the other primary dev on the project, can I assume that the "No" is official and I can just contentedly remain on .47?
That was funny.
Post by: cliff987 on May 01, 2023, 03:37:42 am
Well, I did acknowledge that it takes dev time and resources. Interesting to say it's not feasible. Do you work on the game? Do you have a source for it not being worked on? I've seen otherwise from a few secondhand folks, which is why I'm attempting to go to the horses (toads) mouth.
*Edit: I see now that you are the other primary dev on the project, can I assume that the "No" is official and I can just contentedly remain on .47?
That was funny.
What can I say? Last time I posted in the forum was 2009.
Post by: Buttery_Mess on May 01, 2023, 05:49:36 am
Do you intend for some features of 'dwarfiness' to be purely cultural and others to be inherent to biology?
Post by: KristoffPL on May 01, 2023, 11:46:35 am
1. Is there any chance Steam Achievements are going to be added in the future?
2. Is the current way of activating mods (at the worldgen stage only) final? Will it be possible to load in mods to an already existing world?
2b. Are there plans to implement any additional sort of modding support, to further widen which parts of the game can be modded? (In example, I remember hearing somewhere that music modding is something that will be added in the future)
3. If new music gets added as part of future updates, will the Soundtrack DLC be updated to contain the new tracks, or will it be sold as a new DLC? (No complaints from me whichever way it would be done, I'd be happy to pay extra and support you and the artists :) )
3b. Would it be possible to update the OST DLC to include FLAC files as well? I know that you mentioned in the past that there was a discussion regarding this topic at some point.
4. I was thinking it would be nice if there would be an easy way to fiddle around with the token values. Would there be a chance that would some sort of in-game token editor that we could use to add/remove/edit tokens to creatures, plants, etc., if we'd like to customize things? Perhaps then the changes could be saved as presets and then loaded on a per-worldgen basis.
5. Do you like pineapple on pizza?
Once more, congrats on your amazing release this year and all the hard work you've done in the past years, I wish everyone on the team all the best :)
Post by: dikbutdagrate on May 01, 2023, 12:03:14 pm
Post by: Toady One on May 01, 2023, 05:12:09 pm
Quote from: brewer bob
Any specific plans for [aboveground plants] already? Like, will the whole plants and not just growths be gatherable, will seasons come into play and will it be changed how much you can gather from one plant tile (since now you can just pick vast amounts)? And/or will there be new uses for plants?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8466454#msg8466454
brewer bob (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8466515#msg8466515
Oh, sorry, yeah, PatrikLundell's right - I was referring to graphics. I need to be more careful about which realm I'm residing in now that there are different major paths. But yeah, seasons will likely be added in the near-term at the very least. And we're considering more real-world dyes to get more colors, for near-term stuff.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Is there a possibility of getting starting scenarios or human/elf/goblin "forts" before the map rewrite? How much have you thought about this and how much might these be differentiated from dwarf mode? These can be modded in fairly easily but it's just dwarf mode in a fancy hat; is properly intergrating non-dwarf forts "low-hanging fruit" or do you intend to modify the gameplay enough that it's a bigger job?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8466460#msg8466460
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8466695#msg8466695
I don't have anything to add to the replies - we don't yet know how myth/magic bits relate to to map rewrite in terms of first release, and we'll have our first non-dwarf forts as soon as we have our "fantasy/weirdness" slider. But starting scenarios as a proper thing come after. Gameplay modifications are anybody's guess, since there'll be significant modifications as the myth/magic stuff comes in, but I don't expect it to be directed at making a pure no-fantasy human fort a super satisfying experience, since that's about as not-myth-magic as you can get. But we'll see!
Quote from: Vattic
In the last FotF reply you mentioned above ground plant graphics getting some love. These questions possibly relate.
As things stand grasses can have their growths (flowers and buds) displayed as a layer above the base tiles. This does not work for other plants from what I can tell?
Spoiler: examples (click to show/hide)
Strawberries do kind of have their growth displayed, but in an unusual way. They have two sprites, one with and one without the fruit. Using SHRUB_PICKED for the sprite to use when it has no strawberries. Before they have the growth they are using SHRUB_PICKED, once grown SHRUB. Gathering destroys the plant so SHRUB_PICKED is never actually used for the picked plant.
Spoiler: example (click to show/hide)
My first question is whether you plan to allow us to specify graphics for each individual growth as with grass? This is preferable in my opinion as it allows for plants with multiple harvestable growths to display correctly and for plants to flower or display other growths independently. I had assumed this was the case having seen grass, but the way strawberries have been handled makes me wonder.
My second question is whether you intend to implement graphics for dead plants as in the text mode? As things stand you can't tell without mousing over them. It's annoying when designating individual plants for gathering.
Third is the same, but for specifying graphics for dry and dead grass?
The dead/dry stuff are on the lists/docs we are working from. It's just a matter of time.
Yeah, it makes sense for it to be more flexible. We'd have to deal with the crop pictures too, up to 4 of them for a given plant, which is kinda troublesome.
Quote from: *Obsidian Short Sword*
Out of all (of) the story's from the community, which one is your(Your?) favorite?
Ha ha, my brain doesn't work that way. There are several stories which are notable for their various reasons which I've mentioned over the years, and I haven't read nearly enough of them to be picking just one.
Quote from: Vanzetti
Is it intentional for the elves to count cavern trees as their own, or is it a bug?
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8467736#msg8467736
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8467743#msg8467743
This came up again recently, and we're leaning bugsy - I think for game reasons too, encouraging the player to go down into the caverns and chop and mess around is good, and this would be another incentive.
Quote from: BlackAion
Hmm. Would it be possible to cheat and use the constrained Dragon/Elf/etc. generators you mentioned to do the bulk of the work then going in to add the finishing touches to it? Like for example say you had a constrained Giant generator which produces a giant of some description. You could then just take that data and refurbish a little, giving it keywords like can build civilizations, cast magic etc. then plop it somewhere in the arbitrarily large wilderness.
Additionally, couldnt we also have the gods be the generators of Variety? In-game they could be filling up the procedural emptiness with creations/magics/landforms etc. during the Age of Myths. Shouldnt be a problem with technical issues as the game wont keep track of it, just notes that something happened there.
Additionally additionally, would it be possible to code in an in-game file compressor to hold all that data?
Sure, but I don't think it overcomes the core problem. Things plopped in infinite wildernesses aren't related to each other, without a lot of extra effort, and are never going to have the same richness of history in their spaces.
Quote from: BOOXMOWO
Couple of questions about the difficulty settings:
What exactly does the "Vampire Migrant Fraction" do? I can assume it prevents vampires from coming to your fortress, but where does it factor in and how many more vampires do you get at the minimum setting of 1 in comparison to the default setting of 100?
Which of the economic/landholder triggers are needed for the monarch's arrival? Or is that a completely independent threshold?
I think you've implied this before, but just to confirm: Are all three of "Forgotten Beast Sensitivity", "Forgotten Beast Irritation Minimum", and "Forgotten Beast Wealth Divisor" also being used to control the rate of Cavern Dweller invasions?
For vampires, I think it just rolls a die of that many sides and on a 1 tries to find a vampire if available.
Looks like you need a rating 5 fortress with a living duke, and high-enough happiness.
There's no control on the cavern dweller invasion rates, it appears!
Quote from: Judicator
What are your present thoughts on programming Dwarf Fortress using AI assistance like GitHub Copilot?
I don't have any thoughts about it - I don't know enough and I'm not an early adopter of anything, as we've seen with version control ha ha.
Quote from: Elf Lord
I understand you have very little way of knowing but do you believe myth and magic will release this decade? Simply curious.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8467864#msg8467864
This depends on what you mean at this point, probably:
- Finished and absolutely ready to move on to starting scenarios/entity rewrite? Don't quite see it, with adv mode + villains + army + myth/magic + map rewrite. The years march on.
- Some core myth/magic stuff released before the map rewrite - we flip back and forth, since the map rewrite is so cool and necessary, but there's a ton we can do without addressing it. If we go that way, absolutely we'll see some cool myth/magic stuff in the 2020s.
- Map rewrite but some hanging stuff left over in magic land? Hmmmmmmmmm... possible. I hope so. I'd like the map rewrite to be done ha ha.
Quote from: Vattic
The current non-layered graphics definitions seem to be a very cut down version of what we had with graphics sets. The main addition being caste specific graphics.
Do you plan to bring back a similar level of flexibility that has been lost in the move to premium. Specifically:
a) the ability to set graphics for individual professions. Layered conditions only include broad categories that don't even contain a bunch of professions such as doctors, bards, mercenaries, nobles.
b) the ability to set graphics for the different soldier types: recruit, swordsman, elite swordsman etc. This can be somewhat achieved using layers and item wielded conditions, but not for wrestlers or the elites.
c) same, but for some of the stranger ones: ghosts, prisoners, slaves, adventurers etc.
Does this not work? I didn't change the syntax. Where it says "ANIMATED" or "DEFAULT" in the creature graphics txt files, you should be able to put GHOST or etc. as well. It's still checking in the code for professions and types as well.
Quote from: Listyg
Any hope that export legends functionality will be added to Steam version?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8469781#msg8469781
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8471423#msg8471423
Yeah, this'll be in the game for 50.08 releasing in a few days.
Quote from: Silverwing235
Emphasis mine… Has the notion of, I suppose: ‘procedural asset reuse’ (that is, apropos musical forms from any given worldgen) been brought up at all yet in that discussion? (Not that I have any involvement, but; Ad hoc orchestral composition example: tracks 1 and 5 are irrelevant, furthermore I'm told it is, or was, a rough draft: https://soundcloud.com/musicmastermsh/sets/songs-of-zavazsil)
No, doing music based on the generated forms is far too involved for the time I have available.
Quote from: DPh Kraken
In DF Talk #28, Toady brought up "[adjective] dwarves" as a creature variant originating from mythgen.
The example of cloud dwarves and cloud dragons is a strong example of a shared spherical association. There's a pretty strong cultural background of what a creature associated with the sphere of SKY would be. Power of flight (either innate or as a spell), tissue layers could be given air-themed colors like sky blue or clear, any other interactions they can access would typically be either centered in the sphere of SKY or allowed to trickle in from related spheres.
1. "Cloud dwarves" seems like a question of making the data structure for creature/object variations robust enough to have spherical and arbitrary tagging. Will we see the raw-defined creature variation object be expanded to serve the purpose of mythically-directed randomness in this way?
Like the idea of a single variation comprising [CE_ADD_TAG:CAN_SPEAK] + [CE_ADD_TAG:SKILL_LEARN_RATES:SPEAKING:200] given the sphere of SPEECH, when a creature is speciated to fit the magics of the speech domain. Likewise, different "dragon" abilities and bodies could be stored in the creature variation file with the creature definition calling those, in a way that the world options can briefly look at the creature files to make buttons for.
Perhaps some way to discriminate variant generation by creature tags, that way we don't get redundant silliness like "talking dwarves" and "dark goblins" that describe what they already do. "Bardic dwarves" sounds more apt for an already-speaking creature and is more a flavor matter, but unless the concept of a goblin in DF is reworked to not always originate from dark pits there's not really any meaningful separation between a dark goblin and a banally evil regular goblin. Likewise, you'd need elves that don't live in forests for "wood elf" to be a meaningful discriminator, etc.
2. Will we see the entire concept of a religious sphere also become opened up to modding?
I know sub-domains of ANIMALS was talked about, but the idea of adding new spheres seems like something modders could do easily if the data structure was editable. The god descriptions and language symbols, and hooks in the code to link them with forces and spherical variants.
3. I'm interested in the "humans, and one to two other things" scenario because it means worldgen-relevant procedural entities to elevate certain types of creatures. There are plenty of intelligent creatures already with well-defined associations, how might that be reflected when the game gets around to generating an entity definition for them?
Satyrs love music and parties, gnomes can go in both really dwarfy (the tinker archetype) and really elfy (mushroom houses/"underground wood forest retreat") directions with that Paracelsian link to earth, and animal people should at least pay lip service to their ecological niche (diet and biome primarily). Gorlaks are described as good, so it'd be unusual having them originate a cruel and selfish civilization.
We also can sorta expect spherical associations to loop back around from flavoring original entities to modifying vanilla ones in the same way. Dark elves, if they're more broadly embodying the concept of evil rather than benign non-illumination, would behave in a certain general way. We'd expect them to dwell in cavern layers and dark pits, use evil words in their names, enjoy cruelty and hostility, just basically follow the goblin blueprint. Not all entity changes are created equal, as I'd imagine fire dwarves might be more passionate and prefer settling in warm biomes, but the subspecies is similar enough to integrate with the mountainhome unless there's a cultural rift with ice dwarves.
1. That's the general idea, yeah, though it's complicated because it needs to understand both the processed and pre-processed text, which is deeply annoying ha ha. So I'm not sure what the building blocks will be - they might end up being a little different from typical raws if that's more convenient, but should end up with raws however we get there. The editor-level classes/categories (e.g. 'dragon') should help get around the redundancy issues you mention. Ideally we can modify existing entries but this might prove too difficult.
2. At some point, a sphere is a low-level concept and the game needs to understand what it actually is in a hard-coded way. We've considered a kind of wrapper layer that lets them be combined or redefined, etc., but there's going to have to be a low-level set for them to have any meaning. A full API for them isn't going to be feasible.
3. Yeah, it needs to have hints to do entities for creatures - in the editor/raw object, or from their sphere associations, etc., as you say. I don't have anything to add - the constraints have to come from somewhere and those are the candidates, and it can operate in a constrained random range other than that.
Quote from: ryno
Would you consider implementing powder physics? I feel that Dwarf Fortress is known for it's simulation systems, but a lot of what is going on is not obvious. Physics simulations however are a very upfront way to reveal complexity, and they can be amazing fun. I consider the water physics to be one of the strongest features of the game, and I'm wondering what your thoughts on sand physics are because I feel this is a core building block of a sandbox environment.
Coolie: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8470998#msg8470998
We've considered it, yeah. Mixing is annoying. We never had to deal with that with water (just water contaminants or instant water+magma transformations.) So there's enough inertia that we haven't jumped in on it. Like if you have snow and five colors of sand pouring in from different holes in the ceiling in a large chamber, I understand what would happen in a pixel-wise game, but in our weird environment I'm not 100% sure. 7 stripey layers interleaved per tile at the pile edges, like how the water is 7 layers?
Quote from: sofanthiel
On the development page and in some DF talks, you've mentioned that you're planning to add ships and other moving fortress parts to the game. My question is: will boats and other vehicles be modular and customizable objects that the player can construct block-by-block, or rather fixed structures, that are simply big blueprints the player adds resources to until the desired building is finished (like the trade depot, for example)?
You've also mentioned that you have plans to implement a society system into the game that reworks justice, economics, and culture. Will the society system affect individual creature morals? For example, it is currently impossible for dwarfs to butcher sentient beings. Could a civilization of cannibalistic dwarfs that get mood buffs from doing the currently forbidden things be generated? Will these systems be flexible, or stay the same for the sake of preventing the possibility bad PR (from what I've read, the mermaid thing could be considered an example of this)?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8472424#msg8472424
Yeah, block-by-block.
We're planning on allowing changes, yeah. Whether we implement actual mechanics for a given setting is a matter of development time and priorities, especially in cases where we'd need whole new specific menus and setups based around them.
Quote from: WereDragon
After watching your interview with blind, do you mind elaborating a little more on how we are going to deal with assigning ammo to squads of marksdwarves?
Also is there any chance of marksdwarves using melee weapons that they are given as a backup? I.E if an enemy manages to reach my marksdwarves, but they have a hammer, would you want them to use the hammer, or would you want them to be ranged only troops vulnerable in melee.
I can't elaborate on it much since that's about all there is to it. Offload any squad-specific stuff to some kind of pile info where it makes more sense and the player has more control. Run into a bunch of problems, try to deal with them. Having a global ammo allocator just doesn't work well, though we'll run into an issue with balancing ammo amounts between piles (which we already had with the squad version). But piles have more built in controls. Still pondering a bit.
We'll see what happens. Getting their ranged AI to work better is the priority, but if we can get them swapping wields between stuff in their uniform that would be nice.
Quote
Quote from: cliff987I apologize if this has been asked, but will there be an option for legacy controls? I can't really play the new version. Too many years with the old. I know that's a me problem, but figured might as well throw my two bits in.Quote from: SchmavenDo you plan to add more keyboard control before or after the adventure mode update?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8472801#msg8472801
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8472837#msg8472837
cliff987 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8472844#msg8472844
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8472957#msg8472957
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8473022#msg8473022
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8473030#msg8473030
Putnam's correct that we can't support two UIs. As to Schmaven's question, it's open! We're starting up the two track system shortly, where we'll be doing 50.09 at the same time as we're working on adventure mode (and sdl2/ports) on another branch. How time is divided between those branches isn't knowable, since we'll need to keep artists unblocked at the very least, while maintaining some sort of release schedule. The 50.xx line will hit keyboard controls before too long, while adventure mode will take quite a while.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Are proper gladiatorial fights that don't make the watchers scared, and are actually entertaining for them a planned feature?
2.Just how in depth are you planning to make magic research?
1. Yeah, I think we touched about this in a few dev places, and in the recent interview. Though we'd have to square that with the slavery prohibition in fort mode.
2. As deep as we can compellingly generate, with mechanics to match that aren't tedious. We'll have to judge as we go. The game can generate an arbitrary amount of layers and connections, but we have to be careful about how that comes across.
Quote from: clinodev
How does progress look on supporting third party tilesets? I think it's been 90% finished since November, and just not yet gotten that final push?
Likewise, finishing up Classic "ascii" mode, zooming and so on.
Any estimate on when those will get some focus time?
No additional progress as of now. Been working on the things that have been released, and I don't recall any of the other branches having anything. If you mean tilesets of all different sizes playing nicely with graphical tiles of all different sizes, 90% isn't how I'd characterize it. The steam version renders tiles at all, which is the bulk of it, but I expect there to be some gnarly issues between graphics and the text overlay.
Classic zooming is pretty high priority now.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
For Myth & Magic, do you intend for 'vanilla' dwarves to be averse to wizardy type magic, and have preference for "magic" through feats of craftdwarfship, moods, use of magical materials and/or religious devotion?
Do you intend for some features of 'dwarfiness' to be purely cultural and others to be inherent to biology?
We do aim for being the most typical fare when we are all the way vanilla. So I wouldn't be surprised by that. Though there'll be a little tension the other way since fort mode is the only mode we have for the player running a big research area over time, etc., so I expect it'll be pretty easy to have them branch out a bit in ways that are fun for settlements.
They do have [RELSIZE:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:300]. And there are the personality facets which are attached to the creature and not the entity. Whether that's really proper or not I have no idea. There should probably be influence outside of the ethics by the entity.
Quote from: KristoffPL
1. Is there any chance Steam Achievements are going to be added in the future?
2. Is the current way of activating mods (at the worldgen stage only) final? Will it be possible to load in mods to an already existing world?
2b. Are there plans to implement any additional sort of modding support, to further widen which parts of the game can be modded? (In example, I remember hearing somewhere that music modding is something that will be added in the future)
3. If new music gets added as part of future updates, will the Soundtrack DLC be updated to contain the new tracks, or will it be sold as a new DLC? (No complaints from me whichever way it would be done, I'd be happy to pay extra and support you and the artists :) )
3b. Would it be possible to update the OST DLC to include FLAC files as well? I know that you mentioned in the past that there was a discussion regarding this topic at some point.
4. I was thinking it would be nice if there would be an easy way to fiddle around with the token values. Would there be a chance that would some sort of in-game token editor that we could use to add/remove/edit tokens to creatures, plants, etc., if we'd like to customize things? Perhaps then the changes could be saved as presets and then loaded on a per-worldgen basis.
5. Do you like pineapple on pizza?
1. Sure, we were hoping to do this at some point.
2. Loading all new mods is tricky for a few reasons. Not ruling it out but it's not a priority, especially because it's hard to retcon them into the existing history/populations - you just wouldn't see them anywhere, even if the definitions were loaded.
2b. Myth/magic is partially about adding all sorts of new editors and constraints, yeah.
3. No idea! This is more up to Tanya and the music people.
3b. Ah, I didn't follow up on this. I'll ask now.
4. Hmm, seems like a bit of work when a text editor will do, but I understand the convenience, and we are headed toward some form of editing eventually, though I'm not sure that'll actually include any of the base text files, rather than being a whole new set.
5. Pineapple's not really my thing, but it doesn't bother me if the chunks aren't huge. I'm not a huge crunchy chunk person on pizza generally.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
What are a couple reference materials you plan to use as inspiration for Myth and Magic?
Lately I've just been chopping up wikipedia since it's easy to get at digitally, and I expect it has some bias, but I've been trying to reach through cultures such as they exist there. I'm drawn to those huge numeric catalogs as well, but in practice I'm not sure I'll have much time to work from them. For non-real-world setups, I haven't been doing anything particularly new for this - just capturing some portion of the generic baseline is a large project.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on May 01, 2023, 07:51:02 pm
Lately I've just been chopping up wikipedia since it's easy to get at digitally, and I expect it has some bias, but I've been trying to reach through cultures such as they exist there. I'm drawn to those huge numeric catalogs as well, but in practice I'm not sure I'll have much time to work from them. For non-real-world setups, I haven't been doing anything particularly new for this - just capturing some portion of the generic baseline is a large project.
Then you might enjoy this:
https://ia800408.us.archive.org/30/items/Thompson2016MotifIndex/Thompson_2016_Motif-Index.pdf
2497 pages within the public domain that should align neatly with your preferred method of information consumption. If you're interested in the tales they're connected to, you have to look up the attached citations.
The following is likely more pertinent to your interests however:
http://www.mftd.org/index.php?action=atu
Compilation of folk tale types, rather than motifs. Things hyperlink to immediately accessible web hosted pdf translations of their tales, which is nice if you want some more content.
Example of an entry from MFTD hosted Aarne-Thompson-Uther (ATU) - Types of Folktales:
(The ATU > 300-749: Tales of Magic >300-399: Supernatural Adversaries > 330: The Smith Outwits the Devil. Listed variants are A B C D.)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Very satisfying, this database.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 01, 2023, 07:54:17 pm
Never mind.
Post by: KristoffPL on May 02, 2023, 03:40:09 am
One last question that slipped my mind:
Is there any chance at all that backing up/syncing saves in the Steam Cloud service will be implemented in the future? I have two PCs I play the game on and it would be handy to have my saved games be synced between them (in addition to having a backup in case something goes from with the hard drive)
Post by: kipwheeler on May 02, 2023, 06:04:10 am
Post by: sbritorodr on May 02, 2023, 10:15:28 am
Is there any plans to add steam cloud saves? This would be a really QoL update for me
Post by: sbritorodr on May 02, 2023, 10:34:34 am
Any May updates on when Mac ports might come out on Steam? (I'm very eager to try this game!)
I'm playing in mac using wineskin winery. It works pretty well. Here is a guide: https://re-actor.net/dwarf-fortress-how-to-run-the-game-on-mac/ (https://re-actor.net/dwarf-fortress-how-to-run-the-game-on-mac/)
Post by: ☼Obsidian Short Sword☼ on May 02, 2023, 10:39:16 am
Post by: kipwheeler on May 02, 2023, 05:04:22 pm
Any May updates on when Mac ports might come out on Steam? (I'm very eager to try this game!)
I'm playing in mac using wineskin winery. It works pretty well. Here is a guide: https://re-actor.net/dwarf-fortress-how-to-run-the-game-on-mac/ (https://re-actor.net/dwarf-fortress-how-to-run-the-game-on-mac/)
Thank you--I hope you are having fun with it! I'm holding out for a native Mac version, though I have been watching folks play through wineskin with interest.
Post by: Pillbo on May 02, 2023, 08:45:19 pm
Which jobs can't use partially filled buckets?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on May 02, 2023, 10:24:52 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on May 03, 2023, 03:54:10 pm
Post by: Putnam on May 03, 2023, 07:31:35 pm
> 50.08 notes: Allowed most water-based jobs that use buckets to use partially-filled water buckets in addition to empty buckets.
Which jobs can't use partially filled buckets?
I could not tell you, for they will only fail to if I didn't find them
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 04, 2023, 01:27:39 am
I interpret that to mean that detection of any bucket using water based jobs that fail to use buckets partially filled with water are to be considered as bug report worthy.> 50.08 notes: Allowed most water-based jobs that use buckets to use partially-filled water buckets in addition to empty buckets.
Which jobs can't use partially filled buckets?
I could not tell you, for they will only fail to if I didn't find them
Post by: Silverwing235 on May 04, 2023, 06:53:37 am
I’ll be holding out for a native 64-bit Linux version that supports SDL2 (mostly because the people in charge of my distribution have said that Hell will freeze over before they support the older versions of SDL…).
Emphasis mine:
Hang on, what's this 'chuff chuff, toot toot' I hear in the distance... ...wait, surely not a large heap of leaves on the line, preventing the Linux cargo train from coming in, here? (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/1374goa/sdl2_public_test_up_on_the_experimental_beta/) ;D
Post by: Urist McSadist on May 04, 2023, 09:42:39 am
1.Can we expect some adventure mode ai improvements after the update is out?
2.After the magic update, will there be the possibility of some people having powers based on their values and personalities?
3.Will we ever have procedural government systems?
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 05, 2023, 02:11:44 am
2. Given that personality tied magic is a common trope, there should be a possibility of it appearing eventually. I'm not sure I've seen personal values based ones (but certainly organizations/sects/... with magic and an expectation ranging from expectation up to demand on their values, but then we're basically back to normal sphere based magic).
1.Can we expect some adventure mode ai improvements after the update is out?
2.After the magic update, will there be the possibility of some people having powers based on their values and personalities?
3.Will we ever have procedural government systems?
3. Ever is a very long time. It doesn't seem impossible or out of the bounds of the kind of things DF does.
Post by: Vanzetti on May 05, 2023, 07:53:14 am
Are there plans to further expand the personality model, to have dwarfs interact more with the community in which they live? For example, to enable scenarios such as:
- A dwarf reacting with jealousy to a spouse having an affair.
- A dwarf trying to mend relationship between two friends who had a fight.
- A dwarf experiencing peer pressure to do something they don't really want to (e.g. joining the military, because all their acquaintances did).
Post by: Gremie on May 06, 2023, 10:38:24 am
Is it possible for one dwarf to affect the mood of another?
(do you have any future plans for how dwarfs affect one another, action-reaction scenarios)
1) for example, perhaps a general who gets excited while in combat can cause others to become excited and spur them forward, while the same would be true if they are terrified and cause others to flea with them.
2) have you considered adding a counselling room?
(Or some other method of helping dwarves regain control of their mood? magic enchantments???)
where dwarfs who are upset will seek out help?
with the beauty of the room and skill of the counsellor causing a level of mood buff?
Post by: voliol on May 06, 2023, 10:53:49 am
Is it possible for one dwarf to affect the mood of another?
1) for example, perhaps a general who gets excited while in combat can cause others to become excited and spur them forward, while the same would be true if they are terrified and cause others to flea with them.
2) have you considered adding a counselling room?
where dwarfs who are upset will seek out help?
with the beauty of the room and skill of the counsellor causing a level of mood buff?
Questions mean for Toady in this thread should be in lime green, but these read more like suggestions to me, apt for that board (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) instead.
Dwarves currently seek counseling/consoling from nobles and priests, and the quality of it depends on the dwarf giving it.
Post by: Vattic on May 06, 2023, 05:21:20 pm
Quote from: VatticThe current non-layered graphics definitions seem to be a very cut down version of what we had with graphics sets. The main addition being caste specific graphics.
Do you plan to bring back a similar level of flexibility that has been lost in the move to premium. Specifically:
a) the ability to set graphics for individual professions. Layered conditions only include broad categories that don't even contain a bunch of professions such as doctors, bards, mercenaries, nobles.
b) the ability to set graphics for the different soldier types: recruit, swordsman, elite swordsman etc. This can be somewhat achieved using layers and item wielded conditions, but not for wrestlers or the elites.
c) same, but for some of the stranger ones: ghosts, prisoners, slaves, adventurers etc.
Does this not work? I didn't change the syntax. Where it says "ANIMATED" or "DEFAULT" in the creature graphics txt files, you should be able to put GHOST or etc. as well. It's still checking in the code for professions and types as well.
Turns out you mostly can. Far more work than I thought, but there are more than a few that no longer work.
Spoiler: list that are now "Unrecognized Graphics Token", that worked before (click to show/hide)
Post by: Putnam on May 06, 2023, 07:50:45 pm
Post by: DPh Kraken on May 06, 2023, 08:35:34 pm
Humans, goblins, and a couple of minor entities already procedurally generate their government, they're tagged to do so. Human and goblin leaders can add various positions to their government - there's a couple of varying names and reasons why they add these positions. Right now every one of those civs generates leaders in the same manner: free humans get a nonspecific law-giver while [POWER] and [UNIQUE_DEMON] creatures become master, with lords that rule over sites and a couple of positions that are mostly relevant to villain plots atm.
3.Will we ever have procedural government systems?
There's also a (limited) framework for governments to evolve over time - law-making histfigs in these entities create positions during the course of history, and being taken over by a living god permanently changes the primary lawmaker to be the master.
As for development plans after myth & magic, entities and starting scenarios are on the docket and I'd predict that having more diverse and interactive governments would be part of such an arc.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on May 08, 2023, 04:11:00 pm
Yes, it's true. The dwarves will build Mayan televisions.
The release time for these will be around Myth & Magic, yeah?
Also, would you mind clarifying by what you mean exactly, when you say "Mayan televisions"?
----------
Whats going on under the hood exactly, when a fell mood dwarf grabs an intelligent HFS creature? Why does it look like probabilities are weighted differently depending on the reagent material used during a fell mood? From a lot of testing, it appears that in fell mood instances involving an intelligent HFS gemstone person being "used" as its reagent, specifically, the resulting artifact will be either a left or a right gauntlet 50% of the time, which is odd.
Note: This section may contain spoilers for new players:
Question background - I've recently moved on from testing macabre moods, and have become quite taken with DF's fell moods as of late.
And I've been trying to determine the limitations on what these moods can produce when using intelligent HFS creatures as their reagents.
In terms of items, I've seen divine fire chains, tall helms made from salt, grime leggings, gemstone gauntlets, ash masks (made from corpses), X whatever cages, and even trap components!
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... In vanilla, chains made of fire, produced at a butcher shop."
Besides offering us some exotic materials, a number of these materials will also feature fixed temperatures, and thus, in addition to fire snakes, provide us with some excellent crafting stuff for forging "magical artifacts." (To give us that tiny glimpse into what Myth & Magic might have in store for us, you know?) Anyway, the more fell moods I see, the more incorrect the wiki appears to be concerning them. And so the wiki probably needs updating.
Some observations from testing:
- Dwarves appear unable or unwilling to make artifacts from steam, water, or ice creatures during a fell mood, they leave the corpse and move on; but they will use snow creatures, which produce ice artifacts. Interestingly, ice artifacts will melt and become destroyed at temperatures above freezing, for instance the ambient underground temp (tested in 47.05).
- Fell mood dwarves evidently make for some excellent assassins, for their ability to one shot an intelligent foe, or several, depending on circumstance. A fell mood child has the ability to insta-kill any intelligent demon or were-beast, if it cohabits a tile. Had one fell mood dwarf, who had just claimed a butcher shop outside near the refuse pile, when we got a surprise were-ape (Ñ) attack. The result was the fort's acquisition of a new and very interesting were-ape (Ñ) bin and zero fort casualties.
edit: question wording.
Post by: Gremie on May 09, 2023, 07:03:17 am
Questions mean for Toady in this thread should be in lime green, but these read more like suggestions to me, apt for that board (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) instead.
Dwarves currently seek counseling/consoling from nobles and priests, and the quality of it depends on the dwarf giving it.
:D thank you for letting me know :D
I've edited my question in the hope it will give more context as to what I'm asking :)
Post by: Listyg on May 11, 2023, 07:36:25 am
Thank you for all the hard work.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on May 17, 2023, 03:40:19 pm
Post by: clinodev on May 18, 2023, 12:57:36 am
How do I access my preorder exclusive Giant-Robot cosmetic wagon skin? I saw some announcement about that.
Log in to your FoxFriendsRewards!® program account and check your alerts, but Kitfox handled all that, not Bay 12 Games. You'll need to talk to them about any preorder bonus problems.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on May 19, 2023, 11:28:40 am
How do I access my preorder exclusive Giant-Robot cosmetic wagon skin? I saw some announcement about that.
Log in to your FoxFriendsRewards!® program account and check your alerts, but Kitfox handled all that, not Bay 12 Games. You'll need to talk to them about any preorder bonus problems.This isn't even the dumbest question I've answered today. Fun is fun, but let's not make FotF miserable for Tarn. It's a precious resource for us all.
Hehe, alright Clino, thank you.
Post by: Pillbo on May 24, 2023, 07:34:13 pm
I interpret that to mean that detection of any bucket using water based jobs that fail to use buckets partially filled with water are to be considered as bug report worthy.> 50.08 notes: Allowed most water-based jobs that use buckets to use partially-filled water buckets in addition to empty buckets.
Which jobs can't use partially filled buckets?
I could not tell you, for they will only fail to if I didn't find them
Thank you, I could not make sense of what I was reading.
=====================================
Are the black/shadowy sprites for procedurally generated creatures considered final art or stand-ins for the time being?
Post by: ryno on May 25, 2023, 11:01:15 am
Early footage of premium featured more graphicalized tree stumps that did not make it into release; my theory is that by extending beyond it's own tilespace it created clipping issues when trees were directly adjacent other objects. They looked quite epic however! Might we seem them return, and what other kinds of fun graphics ended up on the cutting room floor due to time constraints? I enjoyed watching the evolution of many assets as the game neared release- and I'm also curious if the artists created referenced 3D models for the later iterations of wagons, siege engines, or windmills. They look "modeled", and they're some of the finest assets in the game now.
Post by: Eric Blank on May 25, 2023, 11:47:41 am
Post by: Immortal-D on May 26, 2023, 08:20:18 am
Post by: TheGoomba98 on May 26, 2023, 06:57:27 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on May 27, 2023, 12:18:03 am
Why can't I find the filter options for assigning units to zones (such as showing only grazing animals for pastures)?
That’s because that’s something that’s provided by DFHack (https://docs.dfhack.org/en/stable/docs/tools/zone.html#zone), not the vanilla game.
Edit: added link.
Post by: Beag on May 29, 2023, 04:07:01 pm
2. Over the updates between now and the myth and magic update will any other minor magical activities/effects be added similar to the divination dice that were added a while back?
Post by: Vanzetti on May 30, 2023, 08:34:12 am
Post by: dikbutdagrate on May 30, 2023, 08:39:36 pm
1. What's left on the to do list before work porting adventure mode over to the steam version can begin? Adventure mode was always my favorite mode.
Blind's most recent interview with Tarn and Zach on adventure mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kanUBppoQpQ&t=5419s
Post by: Bumber on June 03, 2023, 05:56:19 pm
Are you satisfied with the way magma currently behaves? Were you ever interested in making it more realistic? For example, people can not sink into real magma, as it is roughly two to three times more dense than living tissue.
That might come with boats and moving fort sections, since wood needs to float on water.
Hopefully magma will also have columns of hot air above it for various purposes.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 03, 2023, 06:00:39 pm
Edit: got tags confused.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on June 03, 2023, 06:39:20 pm
If gorlaks have the [GOOD] tag and are supposed to be peaceful, sociable creatures, why are gorlaks that come from the caverns technically marked as hostile?
Unicorns have a [GOOD] tag, and I would not describe them as particularly friendly. What you're likely more concerned about is their [BENIGN] tag, and why they're still listed as hostile. I would hazard a guess that this has something to do with ensuring that they set off traps, when they step on them. As opposed to say, normal visitors.
Edit: Trimmed the amount of text.
Post by: sofanthiel on June 03, 2023, 10:40:21 pm
Currently, the underworld is a giant cave with demons and eerie glowing pits that sometimes connects to the upperworld through towers in dark fortresses. It's rather bland compared to other parts of the game.
Do you have any plans for the underworld pre-magic, after which it will (presumably) be overhauled and left completely up to world generation? For example, adding something valuable there to make it worth venturing into? Or maybe creating underworld structures like fortresses/pits with cages and other evil contraptions of hellish depravityTM?
Post by: BlueManedHawk on June 04, 2023, 11:59:05 am
I just wanna preface my question by saying that there are !!SPOILERS AHEAD!!. I haven't seen any forum guidelines regarding this sorta thing, but better safe than sorry! :D
The nature of how humans read is that we're always processing text a little bit behind what we're reading; this means that when we stop reading, there's still a little bit of text that we've already read, but which our brains are still processing. This means that when dealing with infohazards such as massive spoilers that can cause serious harm to those not inoculated to them, you cannot get away with simply putting a warning at the forefront of a text; you must obfuscate the information in some way. Otherwise, by the time one has finished processing the warning about the spoilers, they'll already have seen a bit of the spoilers. While the forum software provides collapsible spoiler blocks (insertible via the little yellow-and-black circle in the text editor's toolbar, which admittedly is not the most intuitive interface), i'd be wary about e.g. an incomplete loading of the webpage or interaction with screen readers, so i'd instead use a more robust obfuscation technique like ROT13.
Post by: Doorkeeper on June 04, 2023, 01:10:57 pm
Code: [Select]
[spoiler]spoiler stuff[/spoiler]which becomes
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Toady has stated (for similar questions in the past) that he's not planning to add new stuff for a feature that's going to get rewritten entirely in the foreseeable future. It sucks for the underworld in its current state, but it makes sense. Originally (and still is) that breaching the underworld is considered a "punishment" by the game, i.e. greedily digging too deep. The underworld is not the reward, adamantine is the reward.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on June 04, 2023, 03:31:38 pm
I'm hoping he's just been unusually busy with Steam-related matters this month or something similar (which would be perfectly understandable), but if anyone here could confirm this for me that would be much appreciated.
Post by: clinodev on June 04, 2023, 04:53:50 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on June 04, 2023, 05:02:34 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on June 04, 2023, 06:52:07 pm
Do you have any plans for the underworld pre-magic, after which it will (presumably) be overhauled and left completely up to world generation? For example, adding something valuable there to make it worth venturing into? Or maybe creating underworld structures like fortresses/pits with cages and other evil contraptions of hellish depravityTM?
No longer in the game, but there used to be stuff in the older editions.
As of 47.05: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Demonic_fortress
In 0.34: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Demonic_fortress
--------
What is the EQUIPMENT creature flag used for?
I tested a summon unit interaction for creatures with the EQUIPMENT flag, and it ended up summoning a wagon. This is the same as summon interactions which only summon creatures with the EQUIPMENT_WAGON flag. I don't think these flags are redundant though.
edit: added question
Post by: Eric Blank on June 06, 2023, 02:00:23 pm
Post by: eerr on June 06, 2023, 05:22:47 pm
If gorlaks have the [GOOD] tag and are supposed to be peaceful, sociable creatures, why are gorlaks that come from the caverns technically marked as hostile?The good tag just means they hang out in good biomes.
Good biomes being the opposition to evil biomes.
Notably, the biome on the surface extends to the biome in the caverns, though I can't think of anything that shares both surface and underground biomes except dwarves.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 06, 2023, 07:05:45 pm
If gorlaks have the [GOOD] tag and are supposed to be peaceful, sociable creatures, why are gorlaks that come from the caverns technically marked as hostile?
Unicorns have a [GOOD] tag, and I would not describe them as particularly friendly. What you're likely more concerned about is their [BENIGN] tag, and why they're still listed as hostile. I would hazard a guess that this has something to do with ensuring that they set off traps, when they step on them. As opposed to say, normal visitors.
Edit: Trimmed the amount of text.
Yeah. I guess you’re right about the tags. I still don’t understand why they don’t act like normal visitors, though. They are sapient, after all…
Post by: Putnam on June 06, 2023, 07:20:43 pm
Do you have any plans for the underworld pre-magic, after which it will (presumably) be overhauled and left completely up to world generation? For example, adding something valuable there to make it worth venturing into? Or maybe creating underworld structures like fortresses/pits with cages and other evil contraptions of hellish depravityTM?
No longer in the game, but there used to be stuff in the older editions.
As of 47.05: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Demonic_fortress
In 0.34: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Demonic_fortress
--------
What is the EQUIPMENT creature flag used for?
I tested a summon unit interaction for creatures with the EQUIPMENT flag, and it ended up summoning a wagon. This is the same as summon interactions which only summon creatures with the EQUIPMENT_WAGON flag. I don't think these flags are redundant though.
edit: added question
The EQUIPMENT flag does most of the stuff involving making the creature unselectable as a pet, wild animal etc. required for wagons, except actually making it available as a wagon.
Post by: eerr on June 06, 2023, 07:58:25 pm
Going a little bit further, if I remember correctly, the tag is defunct for the purpose of what biome the creature 'should' reside in.If gorlaks have the [GOOD] tag and are supposed to be peaceful, sociable creatures, why are gorlaks that come from the caverns technically marked as hostile?
Unicorns have a [GOOD] tag, and I would not describe them as particularly friendly. What you're likely more concerned about is their [BENIGN] tag, and why they're still listed as hostile. I would hazard a guess that this has something to do with ensuring that they set off traps, when they step on them. As opposed to say, normal visitors.
Edit: Trimmed the amount of text.
Yeah. I guess you’re right about the tags. I still don’t understand why they don’t act like normal visitors, though. They are sapient, after all…
Instead, it just indicates the association for other purposes. Like art pictures or preferences.
Stuff used to be sorted into normal evil and good biomes, it's a legacy tag from that era that does something else.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 06, 2023, 09:38:53 pm
Going a little bit further, if I remember correctly, the tag is defunct for the purpose of what biome the creature 'should' reside in.If gorlaks have the [GOOD] tag and are supposed to be peaceful, sociable creatures, why are gorlaks that come from the caverns technically marked as hostile?
Unicorns have a [GOOD] tag, and I would not describe them as particularly friendly. What you're likely more concerned about is their [BENIGN] tag, and why they're still listed as hostile. I would hazard a guess that this has something to do with ensuring that they set off traps, when they step on them. As opposed to say, normal visitors.
Edit: Trimmed the amount of text.
Yeah. I guess you’re right about the tags. I still don’t understand why they don’t act like normal visitors, though. They are sapient, after all…
Instead, it just indicates the association for other purposes. Like art pictures or preferences.
Stuff used to be sorted into normal evil and good biomes, it's a legacy tag from that era that does something else.
I thought it still was. I thought that wasn’t going to going to change until the map rewrite…
Post by: dikbutdagrate on June 07, 2023, 04:20:55 pm
Going a little bit further, if I remember correctly, the tag is defunct for the purpose of what biome the creature 'should' reside in.
Instead, it just indicates the association for other purposes. Like art pictures or preferences.
Stuff used to be sorted into normal evil and good biomes, it's a legacy tag from that era that does something else.
Thats not accurate. Feel free to review the wiki.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Surroundings
Or actually, just embark in an evil biome. That should catch you up to speed.
------------
The EQUIPMENT flag does most of the stuff involving making the creature unselectable as a pet, wild animal etc. required for wagons, except actually making it available as a wagon.Thank you for the response Putnam. I was wondering what was happening there.
Post by: Toady One on June 08, 2023, 01:06:46 am
Quote
Quote from: KristoffPLIs there any chance at all that backing up/syncing saves in the Steam Cloud service will be implemented in the future? I have two PCs I play the game on and it would be handy to have my saved games be synced between them (in addition to having a backup in case something goes from with the hard drive)Quote from: sbritorodrIs there any plans to add steam cloud saves? This would be a really QoL update for me
Saves can be very large so I don't think it can be a default option given how long it would take to sync saves. It might be possible to make it optional but the fast way of setting up a sync folder doesn't seem to do that. We're open to doing it but it might require a small workshop-like push to get it to function.
Quote from: Pillbo
> 50.08 notes: Allowed most water-based jobs that use buckets to use partially-filled water buckets in addition to empty buckets.
Which jobs can't use partially filled buckets?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8473643#msg8473643
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8473696#msg8473696
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_DwellerAre there plans to add the remaining export functions to Legends Mode? The pops and history files are probably the most important bit. At least to me as a modder anyway.Quote from: ListygThank you for reimplementing legends export. However, in the classic version alongside legends xml export there were some other options allowing to export for example, historical figures or terrain information. I heard that terrain data export would be difficult to reimplement for the time being because it's tied to adventurer mode in some way, but are there any plans to reimplement those other remaining export options that were there in the classic, in the Steam version in the meantime? Like the option to export historical figures etc. I apologize if I come off as overly persistent with asking about those exports but there seem to be quite a few of people who are looking forward to seeing them back in the Steam version of the game.
Yeah, we'd like to get everything back. Anything that requires a full menu rather than a simple button is just slightly lower priority (so xml came first.)
Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Can we expect some adventure mode ai improvements after the update is out?
2.After the magic update, will there be the possibility of some people having powers based on their values and personalities?
3.Will we ever have procedural government systems?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8473913#msg8473913
DPh Kraken: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8474291#msg8474291
1. The adventure mode update? I think it'll come with those on the first pass, like fort mode did.
2. Yeah, this seems quite possible, and fits with tropes etc. as PatrikLundell mentioned. The whole thing is kind of like "add an internal API/debugger" so it's unclear what will make the first/second/etc. passes, since it won't be everything and we might run into unexpected snags referencing certain systems (though syndromes/poison already affects emotions etc.)
3. DPh Kraken covered everything here I think.
Quote from: Vanzetti
Are there plans to further expand the personality model, to have dwarfs interact more with the community in which they live? For example, to enable scenarios such as:
- A dwarf reacting with jealousy to a spouse having an affair.
- A dwarf trying to mend relationship between two friends who had a fight.
- A dwarf experiencing peer pressure to do something they don't really want to (e.g. joining the military, because all their acquaintances did).
These things are all reasonable of course. They don't fit explicitly in the existing near-term plans, which are shaped around villains, armies, magic etc., but little things like this occasionally get added because we're in the neighborhood, especially with the villain plots/relationships and certain magic effects. The (sorta) recent divorces came from the first half of villains as I recollect, and jealous lovers would fit right in etc.
Quote from: Gremie
Is it possible for one dwarf to affect the mood of another?
(do you have any future plans for how dwarfs affect one another, action-reaction scenarios)
1) for example, perhaps a general who gets excited while in combat can cause others to become excited and spur them forward, while the same would be true if they are terrified and cause others to flea with them.
2) have you considered adding a counselling room?
(Or some other method of helping dwarves regain control of their mood? magic enchantments???)
where dwarfs who are upset will seek out help?
with the beauty of the room and skill of the counsellor causing a level of mood buff?
The mayor and priests already work as a counselling room, I think, insofar as that kind of thing is going in. Infectious emotions aren't really in the game as far as I remember, and the situation is more or less as with the previous question by Vanzetti.
Quote from: Vattic
(list of entity position tokens for graphics) Are we likely to get these back?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8474277#msg8474277
Yeah, if those entity position ones aren't working, it's something odd and bug-shaped, since the code is more or less the same with the ones that do work.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Whats going on under the hood exactly, when a fell mood dwarf grabs an intelligent HFS creature? Why does it look like probabilities are weighted differently depending on the reagent material used during a fell mood? From a lot of testing, it appears that in fell mood instances involving an intelligent HFS gemstone person being "used" as its reagent, specifically, the resulting artifact will be either a left or a right gauntlet 50% of the time, which is odd.
For corpses, it mainly seems to care about leather vs. bone vs. other. For the other category (where gemstones would be), it adds "SCALED" clothing of all sorts, but also lots of different craft type items, so I'm not sure why gauntlets should be so frequent. Helm, mask, and leggings should also show up, as well as the crafts. But this is ancient stuff, so anything could be going on/wrong.
Quote from: Pillbo
Are the black/shadowy sprites for procedurally generated creatures considered final art or stand-ins for the time being?
The feeling at the time was that they were probably a stepping stone to a more colorful system, and that still seems right, but that they are good for a while. When we're looking more closely at e.g. night trolls and bogeymen etc. as we do adventure mode graphics, we'll see where it all goes.
Quote from: ryno
Early footage of premium featured more graphicalized tree stumps that did not make it into release; my theory is that by extending beyond it's own tilespace it created clipping issues when trees were directly adjacent other objects. They looked quite epic however! Might we seem them return, and what other kinds of fun graphics ended up on the cutting room floor due to time constraints? I enjoyed watching the evolution of many assets as the game neared release- and I'm also curious if the artists created referenced 3D models for the later iterations of wagons, siege engines, or windmills. They look "modeled", and they're some of the finest assets in the game now.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8479459#msg8479459
Yeah, there was some issue with shadows and also the issue with having multiple trees surrounding a tile and having their roots all print in it from different directions, which, with tree species, really compounds the data that needs to be sent in to render the tile. I'm not sure about the windmill etc... I have a vague vague memory that the windmill might have started with a 3D reference, but I don't recall anything for the rest, and I might be wrong about the windmill.
Quote from: Immortal-D
What news of reinstating keyboard controls? (I'm really struggling with the inefficiency of the mouse for large designations, plus the loss of macros)
Macros are in there in some form, though maybe they don't play nice with the designation cursor - I thought I tested that part. In any case, there isn't specific news, but Putnam has been revamping interface stuff, including standardize some list widgets and such that should really help when we get there.
Quote from: TheGoomba98
Why can't I find the filter options for assigning units to zones (such as showing only grazing animals for pastures)?
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8479866#msg8479866
Quote from: Beag
1. What's left on the to do list before work porting adventure mode over to the steam version can begin? Adventure mode was always my favorite mode.
2. Over the updates between now and the myth and magic update will any other minor magical activities/effects be added similar to the divination dice that were added a while back?
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8480479#msg8480479
1. I have a little adventurer running around rendering again. We're just going to have to do everything simultaneously now, so what's on the list doesn't really enter into it.
2. Anybody's guess! The underground rewrite of the endgameish stuff for the Steam release was something like that.
Quote from: Vanzetti
Are you satisfied with the way magma currently behaves? Were you ever interested in making it more realistic? For example, people can not sink into real magma, as it is roughly two to three times more dense than living tissue.
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8481152#msg8481152
It's a mixed bag! Real magma would also cool off, which is a tougher question for fantasy magma I think. People burning to death on top of magma would be fine with me though.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
If gorlaks have the [GOOD] tag and are supposed to be peaceful, sociable creatures, why are gorlaks that come from the caverns technically marked as hostile?
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8481159#msg8481159
eerr: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8481599#msg8481599
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8481610#msg8481610
Yeah, the gorlak was never really done any justice, since underground societies are all terribly underspecified right now, and gorlaks even more than the underground animal people. The game just isn't set up for them currently.
Quote from: sofanthiel
Currently, the underworld is a giant cave with demons and eerie glowing pits that sometimes connects to the upperworld through towers in dark fortresses. It's rather bland compared to other parts of the game.
Do you have any plans for the underworld pre-magic, after which it will (presumably) be overhauled and left completely up to world generation? For example, adding something valuable there to make it worth venturing into? Or maybe creating underworld structures like fortresses/pits with cages and other evil contraptions of hellish depravity?
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8481246#msg8481246
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8481284#msg8481284
The adamantine is the valuable thing, as Doorkeeper replied, and the demon invasion is the punishment. It's a simple thing, and after the latest changes, I'm not sure we're going to fiddle with it more before we get to the actual rewrite.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
What is the EQUIPMENT creature flag used for?
I tested a summon unit interaction for creatures with the EQUIPMENT flag, and it ended up summoning a wagon. This is the same as summon interactions which only summon creatures with the EQUIPMENT_WAGON flag. I don't think these flags are redundant though.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8481574#msg8481574
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8481613#msg8481613
Post by: dikbutdagrate on June 08, 2023, 01:15:21 am
Post by: brewer bob on June 08, 2023, 02:00:00 am
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 08, 2023, 02:07:30 am
Post by: voliol on June 08, 2023, 08:07:07 am
Post by: Silverwing235 on June 09, 2023, 05:04:49 am
Thank you for your time and answers Mr. Toad.
Nice shout-out, there. (Any 'Mr.Toad' reference being assumed to be to The Wind in The Willows, that is.)
Post by: Zeimai on June 11, 2023, 02:51:42 pm
I have premium, but I still switch back to classic graphics sometimes, and a few questions related to graphics on that:
Are there any plans to put something in the highlighted box when you're selecting things for trade in classic graphics? A colored 'x' or something -- as far as I can see it just kind of highlights itself a slightly lighter gray which can be a bit tricky to see at a glance
Are there plans to re-implement an option for varied tiles in classic graphics? When I played before I would always immediately turned varied tiles off for easier readability
Post by: SeeSchloss on June 12, 2023, 05:47:22 am
Are there any plans to put something in the highlighted box when you're selecting things for trade in classic graphics? A colored 'x' or something -- as far as I can see it just kind of highlights itself a slightly lighter gray which can be a bit tricky to see at a glance
I agree with it, I don't know how much of a priority the classic graphics are nowadays, but I think this is one of the most annoying (annoying is too strong a word, but it is somewhat inconvenient) oversights.
The other one I can think of is the pump direction dialogue, where you have to choose the direction of the pumping and are presented with four arrows, but the arrows show the position of the source relative to the pump. So, the reverse of the pumping direction. If you want to pump from east to west, you must choose the "->>" arrow which is very non-obvious, especially with no indication of this through a tooltip or something like that. You only see it once the pump is constructed.
Post by: Nautilus on June 13, 2023, 02:21:29 pm
I really want to make a mod which adds new dyes and accurately displays clothing colors instead of having profession colors. It would be cool if there was tags to detect if a body part is missing, or if a weapon is in multigrasp, or if a particular item is hauled instead of only a tag for number of items hauled. Currently I think artifact weapons and armor don't display on your dwarves in vanilla. I fixed this in my mod by removing the the [CONDITION_CRAFTED_ARTIFACT] tag and layer grouping some stuff. Unfortunately the game doesn't properly detect the material of a crafted artifact so it can only display a generic artifact instead of a specific one of a particular material. Last I checked the creatures_graphics layered file also looks for black bronze equipment instead of bismuth bronze. That would be an easy graphics fix since it only requires the replace command.
Post by: Eric Blank on June 13, 2023, 03:01:52 pm
What is the timeline for fixing the [CONDITION_NOT_DYED] and [CONDITION_DYED:COLOR] tags?
I really want to make a mod which adds new dyes and accurately displays clothing colors instead of having profession colors. It would be cool if there was tags to detect if a body part is missing, or if a weapon is in multigrasp, or if a particular item is hauled instead of only a tag for number of items hauled. Currently I think artifact weapons and armor don't display on your dwarves in vanilla. I fixed this in my mod by removing the the [CONDITION_CRAFTED_ARTIFACT] tag and layer grouping some stuff. Unfortunately the game doesn't properly detect the material of a crafted artifact so it can only display a generic artifact instead of a specific one of a particular material. Last I checked the creatures_graphics layered file also looks for black bronze equipment instead of bismuth bronze. That would be an easy graphics fix since it only requires the replace command.
Youll want to color your questions in green so Tarn knows theyre directed at him.
The timeline is probably pretty short term actually. I'd be willing to bet it'll come up soon so adventure mode can display the colors of equipment people are wearing, as in that mode the player is paying more direct attention to individuals, and turn off profession colors to see what the world looks like without them.
Post by: ShiraKage on June 16, 2023, 12:01:37 pm
1- About myth&magic update, myth generator will create random people and creatures but how will you make their designs in game if they are completely random? I remember I saw something like ''lizard with exposed brain'' this could be easy since we have lizard design but how will you do every random creatures' design?
2- I don't know if random quests are possible but If it's not, will we see more complicated (or detailed) quests in adventure mode near future? Like maybe this example not that complicated but, you see a poor village and ask what happened, they say bandits often raid here but they don't know where they come so ask you if you spend some time here wait for bandits and offer you a house (you can reject and pay for it) and you wait some time and realize they don't come here so ask villagers about their predictions where bandits are etc.
3- Will our adventurer and others do their jobs (miner, farmer), earn money etc. before big wait?
4-I remember I saw one of the aims of new steam version adventure mode was adding new things for our adventurer and making the mode more enjoyable. So, will we see villain update too with adventure mode release or will we wait a bit longer for it?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 17, 2023, 01:26:43 am
This is my first time writing here so please warn me If I do something wrong, thank you.1. It's not random, but procedurally generated. This means there will be a framework that specifies the things that can be generated for each parameter and logic tied to that to produce the resulting abilities and properties when these elements are combined. It's definitely not trivial, but it's something that's been used by DF as a fundamental element throughout the development, so it's something Toady is very familiar with.
1- About myth&magic update, myth generator will create random people and creatures but how will you make their designs in game if they are completely random? I remember I saw something like ''lizard with exposed brain'' this could be easy since we have lizard design but how will you do every random creatures' design?
:
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 20, 2023, 02:51:17 am
Edit: Forgot to make it lime green 😳
Post by: ror6ax on June 21, 2023, 08:13:31 am
2. What are the plans ahead art-wise? Some animations perhaps?
3. Most games have audial feedback on UI interaction(think click sound on buttons). Would it be realistic to implement that in DF?
4. Have you ever played Gnomoria/Ingnomia?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 21, 2023, 03:36:49 pm
1. Have you considered consulting UX professional at any point? Caves of Qud has their entire UI re-conceptualised by an artist and they are implementing that step by step. Adventurer, being very interface-heavy, could benefit from this probably?
2. What are the plans ahead art-wise? Some animations perhaps?
3. Most games have audial feedback on UI interaction(think click sound on buttons). Would it be realistic to implement that in DF?
4. Have you ever played Gnomoria/Ingnomia?
You need to make your questions lime green so Toady can see them.
Post by: ror6ax on June 22, 2023, 06:22:04 am
1. Have you considered consulting UX professional at any point? Caves of Qud has their entire UI re-conceptualised by an artist and they are implementing that step by step. Adventurer, being very interface-heavy, could benefit from this probably?
2. What are the plans ahead art-wise? Some animations perhaps?
3. Most games have audial feedback on UI interaction(think click sound on buttons). Would it be realistic to implement that in DF?
4. Have you ever played Gnomoria/Ingnomia?
You need to make your questions lime green so Toady can see them.
Ah shit, I forgot to click the colour thingy. Thanks.
Post by: oninoshiko on June 22, 2023, 10:35:12 pm
Post by: voliol on June 23, 2023, 09:46:09 am
2. Many cultures have considered mundane animals to have magical properties, such as scarabs or black cats. Can we expect any of this with mythgen, or will it rather be the separate fantastic beasts, like the unicorn, who are granted powers?
3. Any thoughs on sacred animals/plants and mythgen?
Post by: Criperum on June 23, 2023, 12:58:43 pm
Post by: lethosor on June 23, 2023, 02:28:30 pm
As multithreading appeared to be quite possible and implementable instead of being "too hard", may be another long wanted feature is also not so impossible? I mean multiplayer. There are a lot of turn based games with simultaneous MP like Crusader Kings or Rimworld which is basically DF for casuals, it has a mod that adds pretty decent multiplayer experience without issues.Multithreading isn't a one-and-done feature - there is a large spectrum between "not multithreaded" and "completely multithreaded". Putnam identified a few things that were performance-intensive while also being independent enough that they could be multithreaded without a huge undertaking or rewrite, then implemented multithreading for some of them. The vast majority of features in the game are still not multithreaded, and I would guess they will probably stay that way, although there would probably continue to be some research into what makes sense to multithread. In other words, a number of DF's features still are "too hard" to multithread to justify the effort.
I won't speculate on whether multiplayer is a priority, but the key difference is that supporting multiplayer for 2-5% of the game's features is substantially less useful than implementing multithreading for 2-5% of the game's features. Most people would expect the entire game to be multiplayer-friendly, which would require a lot more re-work.
Post by: Silverwing235 on June 23, 2023, 02:31:42 pm
Rimworld which is basically DF for casuals, it has a mod that adds pretty decent multiplayer experience without issues.This, you mean? (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2606448745 (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2606448745)) Edit: (Yes, apparently so, in case Tarn's interest was piqued, due to Criperum's overcite (*ba dum tss*) in the first place.)
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 23, 2023, 04:31:32 pm
At least in the past, measurements have indicated DF is mainly memory bandwidth constrained, not CPU constrained. That doesn't mean there aren't potential improvements, but it may well be that restructuring the code such that calculations made on one set of data in memory before going on to load a new set of data and continue the partial calculations on that might be a better approach for some parts of the code. I'm not saying that's the case, only that it's a possibility.
Post by: lethosor on June 23, 2023, 11:01:20 pm
With the multi-threaded improvements to the line-of-sight code going live, is there any plans to look into threading other parts of the code? Pathing and stone temp come to mind for me.Putnam has actually published some findings from profiling the game - this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180561.0) goes into some detail about how pathfinding isn't a major contributor to speedups. So even if it is relatively easier to multithread than other parts of the game, the payoff would be pretty minimal.
Post by: stoyang on June 24, 2023, 12:59:08 am
Post by: stoyang on June 24, 2023, 01:00:15 am
Post by: Criperum on June 24, 2023, 03:18:03 am
Yes, this oneRimworld which is basically DF for casuals, it has a mod that adds pretty decent multiplayer experience without issues.This, you mean? (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2606448745 (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2606448745)) Edit: trying to cut down on confusion caused by you leaving that one out, if so.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on June 24, 2023, 05:59:47 pm
1. As I recall from the myth demos, deities and primordial forces are given spheres by looking at what objects with obvious spheres (like the sky, elemental planes, certain creatures, divine law, etc.) they created during mythgen. So if a deity created the ocean, they might become associated with OCEAN or maybe WATER. However, some spheres would seem required for a more cohesive myth narrative. Like the TRICKERY of a trickster god, or a deity of LAW not running around wrecking things. Especially if mythgen doesn't cease completely at the point where historygen starts (or the player is able to enter the world), but continues to run in parallel to history (albeit slow). At what point would these sphere-connections be put into place? At the end of (normal?) mythgen where historygen starts? When something with an obvious sphere connection is created?
2. Many cultures have considered mundane animals to have magical properties, such as scarabs or black cats. Can we expect any of this with mythgen, or will it rather be the separate fantastic beasts, like the unicorn, who are granted powers?
3. Any thoughs on sacred animals/plants and mythgen?
Ha, well somebody is gettin' antsy about the Myth & Magic release.
I'm sure Tarn will answer your questions to the best of his ability, but I seem to recall from interviews that Tarn is still pretty decidedly undecided, even now, with how the variation of gods, spheres, and biomes are still all going to tie into one another come the Myth & Magic release.
I imagine he'll attempt to kick that can down the road for as long as possible, at least until enough time frees up so he can meditate on it, you know, like under a waterfall for 4 months, until he settles on something.
edit: Brevity
Post by: Buttery_Mess on June 24, 2023, 07:44:48 pm
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 24, 2023, 09:01:22 pm
With all the changes to UI, has it made it technically easier to translate Dwarf Fortress to other languages? Are we likely to see localisation of Dwarf Fortress, perhaps by KitFox or another third party? Is it technically feasible to abstract the interface to the point where fans could do the translations themselves? If not yet, is it possible or likely, perhaps something Putnam could take the lead on?
I've asked a similar question before, and Toady gave an answer here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8206593#msg8206593). Of course, this was before Putnam was hired, and I expect she'd be the one to implement it as I don't think Toady One would consider it worth his time to work on it himself (i.e. it's not a "must-have" core game feature), assuming it gets done. I also suggest that you read the documentation for GNU Gettext (https://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_node/index.html) (especially the parts about the "Programmer's view (Putnam,s and possibly Toady One's view)) in order to get an idea of what would be involved.
To answer a concern that Toady One and others have had about proceduraly generated text (particularly in mods), I would suggest pushing as much text out to the RAWs as possible. Basically, the RAWs would contain the untranslated text that gets fed into the gettext() function. In the case of the game, I would expect that third parties would do the work of translating once the basic framework was set up. As for mods, mod author's or third parties would be responsible for translating mods.
Edit:
Also, the main reason I've been harping on about GNU gettext, is because it is (as far as I know) the only such solution that works on Windows, MacOS, and Linux. There are other solutions, but (as far as I know) they only work on one or two of those operating systems. Also, I would suggest that Toady One ask Kitfox's lawyers to go over the licensing before he committed to using it...
Post by: lethosor on June 24, 2023, 11:28:50 pm
Given that we are about to switch to sdl2 and at the same time sdl2 is going into maintenance mode, are there any wishlist items that you want to see from sdl3? And on the same line of questions, can we move to sdl3 more quickly once it is released?Worth noting the difference between "maintenance mode" and "end of life". SDL2 will still minor releases for bugfixes from time to time. As far as I know, an end-of-life date hasn't been set yet. In contrast, SDL 1.2 has not seen any releases since 1.2.15 was released in 2012. (There actually are occasional changes made to it still, including as recently as last month (https://github.com/libsdl-org/SDL-1.2/commits/main) (!), but you would have to compile SDL from source to use them.)
Also, the changes between SDL2 and SDL3 have a pretty minimal impact on DF. SDL2 significantly improved support for a lot of modern platforms (e.g. SDL 1.2 apps barely even run on new versions of macOS), and dropped support for old platforms/hardware (some that DF never would have run on). In contrast, SDL3 is more of a developer-focused release. It fixes a fair number of inconsistencies in the API, and adds some new features as well, but nothing that DF would immediately benefit from.
So while SDL3 might be nice to have, I would probably encourage Bay12 to hold off on upgrading just for the sake of upgrading. I think SDL2 will fit DF's needs for some time. Of course, that could change in the future. The upgrade path from SDL2 to SDL3 looks easier to me than from SDL 1.2 to SDL 2, and there are even some scripts provided by the SDL authors that can help with migrating to SDL 3, but it's still an upgrade that will take time and has some risk of breaking things.
Post by: oninoshiko on June 26, 2023, 10:03:26 pm
With the multi-threaded improvements to the line-of-sight code going live, is there any plans to look into threading other parts of the code? Pathing and stone temp come to mind for me.Putnam has actually published some findings from profiling the game - this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180561.0) goes into some detail about how pathfinding isn't a major contributor to speedups. So even if it is relatively easier to multithread than other parts of the game, the payoff would be pretty minimal.
I hadn't looked at that thread in a while, and didn't realize the numbers where rechecked and found to be even less then initially thought. Still, heat-checks (#6) was the other thing I asked about. and re-reading it just, really, changes the question to strike pathing and replace it with relationship checks during watching performances. What is being threaded isn't really the question, so much as is there things in the works to make better use of this 8-core/16-thread processor that I'm not sure I would have believed could be bought for a non-governmental budget when I started using computers.
In any event, it was worth reviewing that thread, there was a lot of new information in it since I last looked at it.
Post by: Fell on June 28, 2023, 10:54:28 am
Saves can be very large so I don't think it can be a default option given how long it would take to sync saves. It might be possible to make it optional but the fast way of setting up a sync folder doesn't seem to do that. We're open to doing it but it might require a small workshop-like push to get it to function.
I'm a developer of We Are Football on Steam, our save files can get pretty large (> 100 MB) as well, and the game stores a history auto saves which can easily grow into gigabytes. Enabling Cloud Sync was pretty painless for us! It was just a Steamworks setting and required no changes to the game executable. The storage space can be configured by the developer and the theoretical maximum is 100 GB or 10000 files. It's pretty reliable.
I would just enable it and see how it goes.
Post by: SeeSchloss on June 28, 2023, 01:34:31 pm
Post by: Eusebio Ptolomeu on June 28, 2023, 01:49:22 pm
Is there a roadmap being followed?
or
What would be the best way to keep track of the development of Dwarf Fortress?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 28, 2023, 07:56:57 pm
I already asked something similar here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180367.0), but I thought maybe it would be better to do so here. It's basically the same thing:The version number of the game indicates the percentage of features implemented from a list they have of "features for game to be considered 1.0".
Is there a roadmap being followed?
or
What would be the best way to keep track of the development of Dwarf Fortress?
Of course they go off-track at times, but the past few years have been pretty much following the plan. Last time things took a diversion as I recall was in implementing villainous networks, turned out the world wasn't varied enough for networks to work properly so guilds, religious strife, love, jealousy, envy, mercenary groups and various noble positions were added.
Oh, and then someone said "let's add graphics and release on Steam!" recently, that was quite a bit off-map (they were always there, but assumed to be much later on).
Post by: Egan_BW on June 28, 2023, 11:03:40 pm
There is a dev log at http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) if you want somewhere you can check for updates.
What would be the best way to keep track of the development of Dwarf Fortress?
And at http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) is a list of planned features and whether they're implemented or not. Looks like it hasn't been updated for a couple years now, though, as the steam release was being worked on instead of the usual new features.
Post by: Deno on June 29, 2023, 04:40:04 am
Post by: Clatch on June 29, 2023, 11:56:03 am
Quote from: Immortal-DWhat news of reinstating keyboard controls? (I'm really struggling with the inefficiency of the mouse for large designations, plus the loss of macros)
Macros are in there in some form, though maybe they don't play nice with the designation cursor - I thought I tested that part. In any case, there isn't specific news, but Putnam has been revamping interface stuff, including standardize some list widgets and such that should really help when we get there.
Toady mentioned something about playing nice with the designation cursor. Can someone explain a bit more about that?
I've spent too many years pounding the keyboard. ::) My wrist aches pretty badly messing with a mouse even for a few minutes. Am I reading into this too much, or is there a way to control the cursor with the keyboard after initiating an event with an available macro?
Post by: Putnam on June 29, 2023, 08:58:00 pm
Given that we are about to switch to sdl2 and at the same time sdl2 is going into maintenance mode, are there any wishlist items that you want to see from sdl3? And on the same line of questions, can we move to sdl3 more quickly once it is released?
Moving on ASAP is planned on my part, what sort of features might be useful will remain to be seen--the game already has an entire action sets system made bespoke for it, for example
With the multi-threaded improvements to the line-of-sight code going live, is there any plans to look into threading other parts of the code? Pathing and stone temp come to mind for me.Putnam has actually published some findings from profiling the game - this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180561.0) goes into some detail about how pathfinding isn't a major contributor to speedups. So even if it is relatively easier to multithread than other parts of the game, the payoff would be pretty minimal.
I hadn't looked at that thread in a while, and didn't realize the numbers where rechecked and found to be even less then initially thought. Still, heat-checks (#6) was the other thing I asked about. and re-reading it just, really, changes the question to strike pathing and replace it with relationship checks during watching performances. What is being threaded isn't really the question, so much as is there things in the works to make better use of this 8-core/16-thread processor that I'm not sure I would have believed could be bought for a non-governmental budget when I started using computers.
In any event, it was worth reviewing that thread, there was a lot of new information in it since I last looked at it.
I made those relationship checks 10x as fast by just introducing a little caching, turning the checks from O(logn) to amortized O(1)--multithreading is an O(1) speedup, so improvements in algorithms will win just about 100% of the time, and this is a great example of that
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 30, 2023, 02:59:53 am
:
I made those relationship checks 10x as fast by just introducing a little caching, turning the checks from O(logn) to amortized O(1)--multithreading is an O(1) speedup, so improvements in algorithms will win just about 100% of the time, and this is a great example of that
Expressing strong support for Putnam here: When looking to make things faster, first try to improve/replace the algorithms, then retry to improve the algorithms, then again try to improve the algorithms. After that you may start to look for optimizations (and while doing that, keep an eye open for algorithm improvements).
It's also the case that an algorithm that was good once upon a time may become less suited to its ever expanding set of tasks as years go by, so a need to replace an algorithm isn't automatically a sign of a bad design.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on June 30, 2023, 05:02:46 am
This may have been asked before but currently, Legendsviewer doesn't work with the steam version as some of the data required can't be exported. Are there plans to bring back the required exporting options?
Lime-Green your text if you want The Toad to see it!
Post by: Toady One on July 01, 2023, 08:40:30 pm
Quote from: Zeimai
Are there any plans to put something in the highlighted box when you're selecting things for trade in classic graphics? A colored 'x' or something -- as far as I can see it just kind of highlights itself a slightly lighter gray which can be a bit tricky to see at a glance
Are there plans to re-implement an option for varied tiles in classic graphics? When I played before I would always immediately turned varied tiles off for easier readability
SeeSchloss: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8482466#msg8482466
Yeah, some of the choices are subpar for sure. You can edit them in the txt files but it'd be good to get the defaults improved.
Huh, only the loading part in the d_init txt needs to be added back. The rest looks like it is still there. I'm all for it.
Quote from: Nautilus
What is the timeline for fixing the [CONDITION_NOT_DYED] and [CONDITION_DYED:COLOR] tags?
I really want to make a mod which adds new dyes and accurately displays clothing colors instead of having profession colors. It would be cool if there was tags to detect if a body part is missing, or if a weapon is in multigrasp, or if a particular item is hauled instead of only a tag for number of items hauled. Currently I think artifact weapons and armor don't display on your dwarves in vanilla. I fixed this in my mod by removing the the [CONDITION_CRAFTED_ARTIFACT] tag and layer grouping some stuff. Unfortunately the game doesn't properly detect the material of a crafted artifact so it can only display a generic artifact instead of a specific one of a particular material. Last I checked the creatures_graphics layered file also looks for black bronze equipment instead of bismuth bronze. That would be an easy graphics fix since it only requires the replace command.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8482767#msg8482767
Yeah, we were planning to have that work at release, but didn't get an option in for the display in fort mode. Eric Blank's right that'll it'll probably come up with the adv stuff. That should also make the fort mode option possible.
Quote from: ShiraKage
1- About myth&magic update, myth generator will create random people and creatures but how will you make their designs in game if they are completely random? I remember I saw something like ''lizard with exposed brain'' this could be easy since we have lizard design but how will you do every random creatures' design?
2- I don't know if random quests are possible but If it's not, will we see more complicated (or detailed) quests in adventure mode near future? Like maybe this example not that complicated but, you see a poor village and ask what happened, they say bandits often raid here but they don't know where they come so ask you if you spend some time here wait for bandits and offer you a house (you can reject and pay for it) and you wait some time and realize they don't come here so ask villagers about their predictions where bandits are etc.
3- Will our adventurer and others do their jobs (miner, farmer), earn money etc. before big wait?
4-I remember I saw one of the aims of new steam version adventure mode was adding new things for our adventurer and making the mode more enjoyable. So, will we see villain update too with adventure mode release or will we wait a bit longer for it?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8483406#msg8483406
1. PatrikLundell covered this. Forgotten beasts already have various groupings and pathways along these lines, and we'd like to both expand those systems and get them out into editable files to the extent possible.
2. Making the world more dynamic has been an ongoing project, and the villain stuff we delayed just before the premium work is the next step in improving both adv and fort mode in this way. It hasn't come together as quickly as a normal RPG, but it has changed a lot and will continue to do so.
3. I doubt it. Making that work properly requires a whole economy which doesn't exist.
4. It's not clear, but either way those are the two things we're working on next for adventure mode (UI update -> villains stuff -> army stuff, in some form.)
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Is the rate at which items in a refuse stockpile decay related to the item’s size? I.e. do larger items take longer to decay?
Looks like it just advances it one stage per season.
Quote from: ror6ax
1. Have you considered consulting UX professional at any point? Caves of Qud has their entire UI re-conceptualised by an artist and they are implementing that step by step. Adventurer, being very interface-heavy, could benefit from this probably?
2. What are the plans ahead art-wise? Some animations perhaps?
3. Most games have audial feedback on UI interaction(think click sound on buttons). Would it be realistic to implement that in DF?
4. Have you ever played Gnomoria/Ingnomia?
1. We were, but our original plan fell through. Not sure what's going to happen now.
2. We're going to focus on what we need for adventure mode, mostly. That'll mean the missing travel stuff and missing town bits, and UI elements as the come up. We're experimenting with some other bits but I don't want to mention it yet if it doesn't work out.
3. Yeah! We have a few audio engineers working now. The initial focus is adv mode, but we've discussed this as well.
4. Nope.
Quote from: oninoshiko
With the multi-threaded improvements to the line-of-sight code going live, is there any plans to look into threading other parts of the code? Pathing relationship checks during watching performances and stone temp come to mind for me.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8484626#msg8484626
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8484702#msg8484702
oninoshiko (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8485404#msg8485404
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486050#msg8486050
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486109#msg8486109
Quote from: voliol
1. As I recall from the myth demos, deities and primordial forces are given spheres by looking at what objects with obvious spheres (like the sky, elemental planes, certain creatures, divine law, etc.) they created during mythgen. So if a deity created the ocean, they might become associated with OCEAN or maybe WATER. However, some spheres would seem required for a more cohesive myth narrative. Like the TRICKERY of a trickster god, or a deity of LAW not running around wrecking things. Especially if mythgen doesn't cease completely at the point where historygen starts (or the player is able to enter the world), but continues to run in parallel to history (albeit slow). At what point would these sphere-connections be put into place? At the end of (normal?) mythgen where historygen starts? When something with an obvious sphere connection is created?
2. Many cultures have considered mundane animals to have magical properties, such as scarabs or black cats. Can we expect any of this with mythgen, or will it rather be the separate fantastic beasts, like the unicorn, who are granted powers?
3. Any thoughs on sacred animals/plants and mythgen?
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8484922#msg8484922
1. Yeah, we've been working with associations that come from actions, and that can still work. It's also not a problem at all to just have some asserted associations which will then become clear as actions happen. It's not preferable since it feels more forced, but it can be fine I think. But yeah, generally connections would be placed the first time something related to them happens so that the character etc. acts consistently from that point forward, or beforehand. And there's no reason why it can't happen historically as well, if the critter isn't immutable in some fundamental way, though it would usually be a big deal.
2. We've thought about it vaguely a bit, like how to place a whole e.g. alchemy system on top the existing mundane-or-not raws procedurally. There are plenty of existing tags (colors, large predator, etc.) that the game can use, but there'd still be more structure needed to stop it from feeling really mushy and random, but some of it should feel kinda random/historical/etc./etc. Seems feasible though, with any target object.
3. Cultural links generally are sort of wanting to happen and also a bit worrisome without the additional frameworks from the entity rewrite, so we'll see what we get. Obviously we're needing various magical/religious subgroups and beliefs etc. so I guess we'll see how far we can push without breaking things.
Quote from: Criperum
As multithreading appeared to be quite possible and implementable instead of being "too hard", may be another long wanted feature is also not so impossible? I mean multiplayer. There are a lot of turn based games with simultaneous MP like Crusader Kings or Rimworld which is basically DF for casuals, it has a mod that adds pretty decent multiplayer experience without issues.
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8484595#msg8484595
Multiplayer was never impossible. I just don't have the skills for it, and it's not my kind of game so I don't want to design and maintain it. A mod would make more sense -- if a mod springs up or something else comes up, and it doesn't take much support from my end, that's cool.
Quote from: stoyang
Given that we are about to switch to sdl2 and at the same time sdl2 is going into maintenance mode, are there any wishlist items that you want to see from sdl3? And on the same line of questions, can we move to sdl3 more quickly once it is released?
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8484985#msg8484985
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486050#msg8486050
Ha ha, I don't even know what sdl2 is capable of. I'm sure we're not using most of it. So I can't make a wishlist for 3. We'll probably be on 3 before 10 years pass or however long it was, but unless it makes the base game a lot faster I'm not sure there's a reason to push for it rapidly.
Quote from: stoyang
Are there any scripts or features in DFHack that you think would be good candidates to integrate into DF itself, should time allow?
I'm not familiar enough with them. We've done similar things enough times that I assume there are several though.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With all the changes to UI, has it made it technically easier to translate Dwarf Fortress to other languages? Are we likely to see localisation of Dwarf Fortress, perhaps by KitFox or another third party? Is it technically feasible to abstract the interface to the point where fans could do the translations themselves? If not yet, is it possible or likely, perhaps something Putnam could take the lead on?
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8484968#msg8484968
I don't think it's any easier, aside maybe for extra glyphs being slightly more reachable maybe. There's still all the procedural text sitting in the way. We've vaguely started to some people about some things, but the constructed elements are a high hurdle. I'm not sure how well partial translations are received, and we have to be careful about that.
Quote from: SeeSchloss
With the Linux port compiling now, will we get an aarch64 build for Linux, or just aarch64 for macOS and x86_64 for Linux?
I don't know what's possible at this point with the process we're planning to use.
Quote from: Eusebio Ptolomeu
Is there a roadmap being followed?
or
What would be the best way to keep track of the development of Dwarf Fortress?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8485812#msg8485812
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8485826#msg8485826
The Premium stuff delayed the stuff on the dev page linked in the reply, but that's still the plan. We aren't through updating the game though, still need to do adv mode, finish legends mode, ports, keyboard stuff, etc., so it's not clear when we'll be back to the dev page.
Quote from: Deno
This may have been asked before but currently, Legendsviewer doesn't work with the steam version as some of the data required can't be exported. Are there plans to bring back the required exporting options?
We're planning to bring back everything that was in the pre-Steam version, yeah.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on July 01, 2023, 09:11:59 pm
Post by: mikekchar on July 01, 2023, 09:16:44 pm
:
I made those relationship checks 10x as fast by just introducing a little caching, turning the checks from O(logn) to amortized O(1)--multithreading is an O(1) speedup, so improvements in algorithms will win just about 100% of the time, and this is a great example of that
Expressing strong support for Putnam here: When looking to make things faster, first try to improve/replace the algorithms, then retry to improve the algorithms, then again try to improve the algorithms. After that you may start to look for optimizations (and while doing that, keep an eye open for algorithm improvements).
It's also the case that an algorithm that was good once upon a time may become less suited to its ever expanding set of tasks as years go by, so a need to replace an algorithm isn't automatically a sign of a bad design.
Another way to think about this:
Saying that the game is slow because it is single threaded is similar to saying that I'm not rich because I'm only working 1 job. Working 2 jobs doesn't guarantee that I will double my salary. It's often easier to negotiate 1 high salary rather than 2. Worse, even if I did double my salary, it wouldn't be enough to make me rich. Finally, the nail in the coffin is that by working 2 jobs, I put each at risk because coordinating 2 full time jobs during the day is actually very difficult. The way to get rich is by concentrating on getting rich, not by concentrating on how many jobs you are working.
While I'm here, I want to put in a brief pug for SDL3. I think Putnam was earlier expressing some support for SDL3 sooner rather than later and I think that's the right idea (apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth Putnam). It doesn't have to give you a lot of value. The reason for doing it as early as possible is that there will be less changes made earlier in the development stream. The earlier to upgrade, the easier it is to do. When working on a long term project, understanding long term efficiencies is *very* important. Those little cleanup chores can easily suck up most of your time if you let them.
It's a bit like doing your dishes. If you clean as you cook, each thing takes only about 5 seconds to clean. If you leave it until after you eat your meal, it will take 1-2 minutes. If you leave it until the end of the week, all your meals take 2-3 times as long to cook because you are constantly fighting for counter/sink space. And then you have an extra 2 hours of really horrible cleaning of the kitchen. I once saw an interview with the wife of a Michelin star chef. She said her husband's food was OK, but for every day meals, she liked hers better. However, she said that he did everything in a third of the time because he kept the kitchen immaculate. This is also true of programming.
Post by: Putnam on July 01, 2023, 10:00:19 pm
Are there any scripts or features in DFHack that you think would be good candidates to integrate into DF itself, should time allow?
Right, I'm a bit more qualified to answer this: I personally love the planning mode a lot and consider it maybe the single biggest usability boost DFHack provides, but it's a bit of an undertaking and DFHack's version works, as of right now, which is obviously a cop-out.
The main thing I use from DFHack is the Lua console and gm-editor and such for debugging purposes, plus writing my own scripts for that stuff, which has helped a good deal--turns out unit allocation is a bit spotty right now, so there's a notable performance gain from reloading after every save, which is a bit annoying. That didn't show up in initial testing, but now I can see it pretty clearly. It's good stuff.
Post by: voliol on July 02, 2023, 02:54:25 am
Post by: Vanzetti on July 02, 2023, 03:47:41 am
Post by: Nihilich on July 02, 2023, 04:13:30 pm
2) What is the nature of the code-sharing deal you worked out with the DF hack team? Are you taking precautions against potential copyright issues?
Post by: Silverwing235 on July 03, 2023, 08:05:26 am
People have noted that waves breaking on the shore, and the foam they spread around, currently look a lot less impressive in Graphics mode than in ASCII mode. Is there a plan to remedy this?
Not just their look - you were probably unaware that they don't actually function as waves (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Ocean#Ocean_waves), either?
Post by: Vanzetti on July 03, 2023, 12:17:34 pm
People have noted that waves breaking on the shore, and the foam they spread around, currently look a lot less impressive in Graphics mode than in ASCII mode. Is there a plan to remedy this?
Not just their look - you were probably unaware that they don't actually function as waves (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Ocean#Ocean_waves), either?
I'm talking only about the aesthetics in this case.
Post by: clinodev on July 03, 2023, 04:54:54 pm
2) What is the nature of the code-sharing deal you worked out with the DF hack team? Are you taking precautions against potential copyright issues?
I think the short answer here is that there's no code-sharing deal with the DFHack team.
For about a year now there's been a very small testing group that get an early release to bug test, and then what will be the public beta a couple days early. More recently, members of the DFHack team are in that testing group, so they can prepare for releases, and Tarn and Putnam are pretty accessible in that chat for specific issues that come up.
Nevertheless, they're almost entirely only getting a few days early access to public releases. I think it's underestimated in the community just how very good the core DFHack team is at putting things together from the same releases everyone else gets. Early access lets them release very close to the public release time.
Any access to actual code appears to be limited to occasional small snippets, but it having Putnam available (who's historically been active in DFHack) to explain this or that has probably helped a lot.
I'm not part of the DFHack team but I'm in testing, so it's possible I've messed up some small detail, but that's how it works in general.
Post by: mikekchar on July 04, 2023, 02:42:14 am
Post by: Nihilich on July 04, 2023, 04:43:09 pm
2) What is the nature of the code-sharing deal you worked out with the DF hack team? Are you taking precautions against potential copyright issues?
I think the short answer here is that there's no code-sharing deal with the DFHack team.
For about a year now there's been a very small testing group that get an early release to bug test, and then what will be the public beta a couple days early. More recently, members of the DFHack team are in that testing group, so they can prepare for releases, and Tarn and Putnam are pretty accessible in that chat for specific issues that come up.
Nevertheless, they're almost entirely only getting a few days early access to public releases. I think it's underestimated in the community just how very good the core DFHack team is at putting things together from the same releases everyone else gets. Early access lets them release very close to the public release time.
Any access to actual code appears to be limited to occasional small snippets, but it having Putnam available (who's historically been active in DFHack) to explain this or that has probably helped a lot.
I'm not part of the DFHack team but I'm in testing, so it's possible I've messed up some small detail, but that's how it works in general.
Thanks for the reply, & i'm glad to hear that, though I was most worried about code flowing the other way - ever since that whole unfortunate meph thing ://
Post by: lethosor on July 04, 2023, 10:15:10 pm
Thanks for the reply, & i'm glad to hear that, though I was most worried about code flowing the other way - ever since that whole unfortunate meph thing ://What "code flowing the other way" are you referring to? The DFHack code is less useful to DF than DF code is to DFHack, because we (DFHack) have historically used different names for the majority of things in DF. We are used to translating the names as needed if we ever get code snippets, but Bay12 is not so much. That said, our code is zlib-licensed, so it would be pretty hard for DF to create copyright issues by using any of our code.
If you're referring to PRs going into libgraphics (https://github.com/Putnam3145/Dwarf-Fortress--libgraphics--), I'm not sure what the exact concerns are there, but PRs have not been made exclusively by DFHack contributors.
Post by: Majer3RD on July 05, 2023, 01:43:49 pm
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the state of diplomacy and interaction between the other civilizations? Do you intend to expand on diplomacy and maybe even visiting other locations with diplomats? Absolutely love your work on this game and will forever tip my hat to you for such an amazing life project.
Potential thought on the diplomat visiting idea. Could there be a mini-adventurer mini game within fortress mode? Maybe it utilizes squad mode to control your diplomat and navigate the visiting fortress to reach and find said site’s leader, all the while avoiding traps and unruly citizens or other unwanted guests at a location.
Post by: voliol on July 05, 2023, 02:47:19 pm
Hi Toady!
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the state of diplomacy and interaction between the other civilizations? Do you intend to expand on diplomacy and maybe even visiting other locations with diplomats? Absolutely love your work on this game and will forever tip my hat to you for such an amazing life project.
Potential thought on the diplomat visiting idea. Could there be a mini-adventurer mini game within fortress mode? Maybe it utilizes squad mode to control your diplomat and navigate the visiting fortress to reach and find said site’s leader, all the while avoiding traps and unruly citizens or other unwanted guests at a location.
Welcome to the forums, Majer3RD! In this thread, questions to Toady should be marked in lime green so he knows to read them. Format like this:
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]in lime green[/color]As for diplomats, the Starting Scenarios arc after Myths&Magic is meant to flesh out your fort's relationship with the world, and part of that is having different diplomacy options depending on the scenario (if your fort is a military outpost, the a roadside inn, etc.). I don't think much more has been said about that, due to it being quite some years into the future.
Though short term there are notions for better communication with your own off-site armies and holdings, as part of the pre-Myths&Magic army improvements. Perhaps those messengers count as diplomats?
Post by: Tekkud on July 06, 2023, 12:47:43 pm
Especially with premium graphics, the idea of having a military equipped with identifying garments is compelling, at least for me. Grizzly bear leather cloaks embroidered with the symbol of our warrior deity, and a helm studded with the visage of each forgotten beast slain by its wearer? Yes please! To less flamboyant ends, lots of players I interact with just want the humble option to give their favorite Dwarf a special shirt.
Post by: Eric Blank on July 06, 2023, 01:54:37 pm
With a military uniform overhaul on the table, I'm curious if it has ever crossed your mind to make it possible to designate some clothing as military only? Surely there's plenty of ways to make it work. Perhaps an 'equipment use' menu akin to the 'stone use' menu, or just rigid priority for the military to claim uniform items before civilians. I bet there's a dozen ways to skin such a cat.
Especially with premium graphics, the idea of having a military equipped with identifying garments is compelling, at least for me. Grizzly bear leather cloaks embroidered with the symbol of our warrior deity, and a helm studded with the visage of each forgotten beast slain by its wearer? Yes please! To less flamboyant ends, lots of players I interact with just want the humble option to give their favorite Dwarf a special shirt.
Questions should be colored green so Tarn knows they were expected to be included in the next FotF. This does sound a lot like a suggestion, though, so on the off chance the answer is "no" it should probably be posted in the suggestions subforum. Tarn and Zach regularly read the suggestions, so it won't get lost.
This suggestion has probably come up before, yes, but there's always more pressing issues in military management, like rangers being broken right now. The only time where this becomes particularly important anyway is when you want to issue adamantine clothing to the military. Otherwise having your civilians just as well-covered is always a good thing, if only so they survive an animal attack long enough the militia has time to come save them.
Post by: Salvadaddy on July 06, 2023, 06:33:57 pm
Would you consider altering the lifespan of the Sponge Man to be more sponge-like? Currently they live between 60-80 years, while regular sea sponges can live for thousands
Post by: lethosor on July 07, 2023, 09:50:48 am
Hi Toady!
Would you consider altering the lifespan of the Sponge Man to be more sponge-like? Currently they live between 60-80 years, while regular sea sponges can live for thousands
Suggestions should generally go in the suggestions forum:
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0).
Post by: Majer3RD on July 07, 2023, 11:57:49 pm
I can’t seem to find a full answer as to why, but is there anyway for me to edit the engraving text phrases used when one makes a custom slab or art description? I would even love it if we could somehow have a custom text fill in option too if that was somehow possible. Mainly I figured we should be able to at least alter the existing phrases to read a little bit different if desired but the only answer I seem to get is, it’s hardcoded. Is there a reason this is the case?
Post by: Silverwing235 on July 08, 2023, 04:57:42 am
hi Toady!
I can’t seem to find a full answer as to why, but is there anyway for me to edit the engraving text phrases used when one makes a custom slab or art description? I would even love it if we could somehow have a custom text fill in option too if that was somehow possible. Mainly I figured we should be able to at least alter the existing phrases to read a little bit different if desired but the only answer I seem to get is, it’s hardcoded. Is there a reason this is the case?
...two too many 'somehows' IMO makes you look a touch less competent than you may have intended, BTW?
Post by: Silverwing235 on July 08, 2023, 07:06:23 am
EDIT: Looks like someone's also taken issue (Kitfox:https://discord.com/channels/329272032778780672/847643850612801536/1133749707257168004 (https://discord.com/channels/329272032778780672/847643850612801536/1133749707257168004)) with, IIRC, your marking of the 'Outsider' category for (programmatic) dumping, as it were. Care to remind us just what that was about?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on July 08, 2023, 09:14:08 pm
hi Toady!
I can’t seem to find a full answer as to why, but is there anyway for me to edit the engraving text phrases used when one makes a custom slab or art description? I would even love it if we could somehow have a custom text fill in option too if that was somehow possible. Mainly I figured we should be able to at least alter the existing phrases to read a little bit different if desired but the only answer I seem to get is, it’s hardcoded. Is there a reason this is the case?
This sounds like a suggestion. Suggestions go in the Suggestions Forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0). In the meantime, you might want to hit up the people in the DFHack thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164123.msg8487753#msg8487753)...
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 09, 2023, 12:14:37 am
Given that UI is your current focus: are you aware of certain procgen code shenanigans (gremlin-style lever pulling, I guess) causing disruption in adv character gen, such as this (Discord: https://discord.com/channels/329272032778780672/1049402643342168114/1119264182093758541 (https://discord.com/channels/329272032778780672/1049402643342168114/1119264182093758541)); also a long-standing calendar ☼engraving☼ (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Felsite) that needs attention?Pretty sure these bugs are on the bug tracker.
And if they're not, well, can't blame Toady for not knowing about bugs that no-one thought were important enough to report.
But, fairly sure they are.
Post by: Majer3RD on July 11, 2023, 07:43:33 am
Any idea on when you think you’ll do so more work on the way the text for engravings and artwork is utilized? Will you be adding custom line functions or at least more to the existing lists of current options?
Post by: dikbutdagrate on July 13, 2023, 03:09:27 pm
2. We've thought about it vaguely a bit, like how to place a whole e.g. alchemy system on top the existing mundane-or-not raws procedurally. There are plenty of existing tags (colors, large predator, etc.) that the game can use, but there'd still be more structure needed to stop it from feeling really mushy and random, but some of it should feel kinda random/historical/etc./etc. Seems feasible though, with any target object.YES! Do it! Procedural alchemy is YES! Go for it! Initial release could be full random, and I imagine that would be highly entertaining.
Relevant: Have you ever played Alchemists, the board game?
Multiplayer was never impossible. I just don't have the skills for it, and it's not my kind of game so I don't want to design and maintain it. A mod would make more sense -- if a mod springs up or something else comes up, and it doesn't take much support from my end, that's cool.I still firmly believe that a competitive multiplayer RTS mod for Dwarf Fortress would be both hilarious and glorious in equal measure.
Dude, can you imagine money matching that sh*t and livestreaming it?
Post by: hitorigochi on July 15, 2023, 10:10:29 pm
Another question, do dwarves not use any tools when fishing? Will fishing rods be added in the future?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on July 16, 2023, 12:15:16 am
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future?
Hello, hitorigochi! Welcome to the Bay12 Forums! Please remember to make your questions lime green so that Toady One can see and remember to answer them!
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 16, 2023, 02:00:22 am
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future?A lot of things are abstracted away in DF, and in the case of writing the production of the material written on can be considered a stand in for the complete set of things actually needed. It's somewhat similar to how workshops can produce things without explicit tools (or even materials for the construction of tools). Some aspects of the simulation may be expanded on in the future (I believe workshops will be overhauled at some unplanned point in the future). My guess is that the answer to the question would be that it's not impossible, but we'll see what happens.
Post by: hitorigochi on July 16, 2023, 03:50:02 am
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future?
Hello, hitorigochi! Welcome to the Bay12 Forums! Please remember to make your questions lime green so that Toady One can see and remember to answer them!
Thank you！
Post by: hitorigochi on July 16, 2023, 04:00:37 am
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future?A lot of things are abstracted away in DF, and in the case of writing the production of the material written on can be considered a stand in for the complete set of things actually needed. It's somewhat similar to how workshops can produce things without explicit tools (or even materials for the construction of tools). Some aspects of the simulation may be expanded on in the future (I believe workshops will be overhauled at some unplanned point in the future). My guess is that the answer to the question would be that it's not impossible, but we'll see what happens.
I really hope to add a pen and ink. Because writing in the library doesn't require pen and ink, it feels like the words written on paper are out of thin air. It feels strange.
Post by: ror6ax on July 16, 2023, 12:00:02 pm
Post by: SeeSchloss on July 17, 2023, 02:54:31 am
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future? Because writing in the library doesn't require pen and ink, it feels like the words written on paper are out of thin air. It feels strange.
That's an interesting point, and it wouldn't add too much complexity either. Ink could be made from some leaves or fruit I guess (like real ink can be made from acorns or walnut flesh, or various leaves).
I'm not sure pens really need to be explicitly mentioned as they were mostly disposable things that could easily be made from many kinds of feathers or reeds.
Post by: hitorigochi on July 17, 2023, 05:25:55 am
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future? Because writing in the library doesn't require pen and ink, it feels like the words written on paper are out of thin air. It feels strange.
That's an interesting point, and it wouldn't add too much complexity either. Ink could be made from some leaves or fruit I guess (like real ink can be made from acorns or walnut flesh, or various leaves).
I'm not sure pens really need to be explicitly mentioned as they were mostly disposable things that could easily be made from many kinds of feathers or reeds.
I think pens can have a "durability" level like soap.
Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Unlike most other items, bars of soap have a "durability" level which allows jobs to partially consume them – each bar starts with 150 units, and cleaning jobs consume varying quantities of soap before ultimately using it up.
Post by: Nihilich on July 18, 2023, 04:44:25 pm
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future? Because writing in the library doesn't require pen and ink, it feels like the words written on paper are out of thin air. It feels strange.our best scientists put their heads together and determined that they use their stiff beards to push bits of plump helmet mince roast into the soft, spongey tissue of the papyrus fabric.
Another question, do dwarves not use any tools when fishing? Will fishing rods be added in the future?
it's probably for the best that it's not in the game as dwarves may simply have spent all their time running around collecting pens and inkwells, much like the coin hoarding problems that disabled the economy in earlier versions.
Post by: hitorigochi on July 18, 2023, 10:19:40 pm
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future? Because writing in the library doesn't require pen and ink, it feels like the words written on paper are out of thin air. It feels strange.our best scientists put their heads together and determined that they use their stiff beards to push bits of plump helmet mince roast into the soft, spongey tissue of the papyrus fabric.
Another question, do dwarves not use any tools when fishing? Will fishing rods be added in the future?
it's probably for the best that it's not in the game as dwarves may simply have spent all their time running around collecting pens and inkwells, much like the coin hoarding problems that disabled the economy in earlier versions.
I don't think so, because pen and ink are not as versatile and important as coins, they are only used as tools for writing. It's different from a coin.
Post by: Eschar on July 18, 2023, 10:33:46 pm
Post by: hitorigochi on July 18, 2023, 11:22:18 pm
how do you know dwarves need pen and ink to writeIn fact, dwarves write with beards and food scraps.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on July 18, 2023, 11:45:01 pm
how do you know dwarves need pen and ink to writeIn fact, dwarves write with beards and food scraps.
Why aren't you taking this to DF Suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) where it belongs?
Post by: ShiraKage on July 19, 2023, 07:08:29 am
1b- If they catch us and put in a prison, will we actually live in a prison life? Like maybe every prison has its own rules, difficulty (easy to escape or more developed and hard to escape), different guardians (some guardians are more friendly, some are more strict) more interactions with people in prison, trade with them etc.
2- About myth and magic arc, will we see different kinds of magical systems like maybe a world which only way to cast a magic spell is upgrade items and weapons with runes or other materials?
Post by: hitorigochi on July 20, 2023, 12:23:04 am
how do you know dwarves need pen and ink to writeIn fact, dwarves write with beards and food scraps.
Why aren't you taking this to DF Suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) where it belongs?
Is it about writing and fishing? I'm not very sure where to put it, so I just decided to put it here. I am not very familiar with this forum.
Post by: voliol on July 20, 2023, 01:51:09 am
2- About myth and magic arc, will we see different kinds of magical systems like maybe a world which only way to cast a magic spell is upgrade items and weapons with runes or other materials?
Yup, proceedural magic systems of different kinds is one of the goals of the Myth&Magic arc. The development page should have the outline of planned features, but I also recommend checking out the DF Talks, and previous FotF answers.
The game currently has magic to upgrade weapons, and runes have been mentioned many times for being a type of magic often associated with dwarves. That doesn't mean dwarves will always get rune magic, that will depend on the world generation, but rather that rune magic is likely to make it in the first pass. Since there are lots and lots of imaginable magic systems, effects of magic, etc., not all of it can be added at once.
Post by: hitorigochi on July 20, 2023, 09:03:16 pm
Post by: sofanthiel on July 20, 2023, 11:12:24 pm
Will anti piracy features be added in the future? I found that the game can be opened without starting Steam.
Pirates will pirate. Even with anti-piracy feauters in place, playing premium DF would be as easy as copying the tileset and music files, importing them into the free version of the game, and just launching it. Thing is, most people buying the steam version do it solely because they want to support Toady and ThreeToe!
Post by: dikbutdagrate on July 20, 2023, 11:19:02 pm
Will anti piracy features be added in the future? I found that the game can be opened without starting Steam.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on July 21, 2023, 02:34:45 am
how do you know dwarves need pen and ink to writeIn fact, dwarves write with beards and food scraps.
Why aren't you taking this to DF Suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) where it belongs?
Is it about writing and fishing? I'm not very sure where to put it, so I just decided to put it here. I am not very familiar with this forum.
Development log (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html)
Development page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0). Questions and comments about the development page or DF development somewhat more broadly work here, though any contentious topics that lead to derails are discouraged -- there are threads for those too.
If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well. You do that like this:Code: [Select][color=limegreen]making questions limegreen[/color]
Here is the last reply from the last thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7701845#msg7701845
At the time of this thread's creation, the current plan was continuing working on bugs and smaller suggestions while integrating features important to both the magic releases and making the long wait for the magic release more tolerable, generally related to armies and villains. Then we'll move on to myths and magic, before tackling embark scenarios and their associated frameworks (law, property, customs, status, etc.).
That's from the very first post in this thread.
The Suggestions Forum is the place to post any and all suggestions that you have for the game. It's also the place to add your two cents concerning things that other people have suggested (and for others to add their two cents concerning yours). just remember to read the rules at the top of the Forum before posting there. The only time suggestions should be posted in FoTF is if they relate to current development. You can, of course, ask when a particular item will be worked on, but don't be surprised if the answer is "We don't know". In any case, Toady One regularly reads the threads in the Suggestions Forum (at least skimming the first post of each new thread) and takes notes. In FoTF, he focuses on questions (marked in lime green), and I don't think he takes any notes. TLDR, if you want any chance of your suggestion being implemented, then put it in the Suggestions Forum.
Post by: hitorigochi on July 21, 2023, 03:18:17 am
how do you know dwarves need pen and ink to writeIn fact, dwarves write with beards and food scraps.
Why aren't you taking this to DF Suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0) where it belongs?
Is it about writing and fishing? I'm not very sure where to put it, so I just decided to put it here. I am not very familiar with this forum.Development log (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html)
Development page (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)
The purpose of the thread is to discuss current developments. Specific bugs should be reported on the bug tracker (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/), and specific suggestions belong for the most part in the suggestion forum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0). Questions and comments about the development page or DF development somewhat more broadly work here, though any contentious topics that lead to derails are discouraged -- there are threads for those too.
If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them all, although it is difficult to respond to everything when it is busy. I'll lean toward questions that involve current developments to avoid pulling the entire suggestion forum in here. In the past, we've all found the practice of making questions limegreen works pretty well. You do that like this:Code: [Select][color=limegreen]making questions limegreen[/color]
Here is the last reply from the last thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159164.msg7701845#msg7701845
At the time of this thread's creation, the current plan was continuing working on bugs and smaller suggestions while integrating features important to both the magic releases and making the long wait for the magic release more tolerable, generally related to armies and villains. Then we'll move on to myths and magic, before tackling embark scenarios and their associated frameworks (law, property, customs, status, etc.).
That's from the very first post in this thread.
The Suggestions Forum is the place to post any and all suggestions that you have for the game. It's also the place to add your two cents concerning things that other people have suggested (and for others to add their two cents concerning yours). just remember to read the rules at the top of the Forum before posting there. The only time suggestions should be posted in FoTF is if they relate to current development. You can, of course, ask when a particular item will be worked on, but don't be surprised if the answer is "We don't know". In any case, Toady One regularly reads the threads in the Suggestions Forum (at least skimming the first post of each new thread) and takes notes. In FoTF, he focuses on questions (marked in lime green), and I don't think he takes any notes. TLDR, if you want any chance of your suggestion being implemented, then put it in the Suggestions Forum.
I see, thank you.
Post by: Putnam on July 21, 2023, 05:07:36 am
Will anti piracy features be added in the future? I found that the game can be opened without starting Steam.
no, steam DRM is not in the cards, and, in fact, I kinda want to make it so that the steam version doesn't need to have the steam_api64.dll file lying around, either? the itch.io version is DRM free regardless of what the steam version does anyway
Post by: Bottle on July 21, 2023, 04:07:46 pm
1. Is still the case that the map rework is required before adventure mode? This means world generation is being reworked, right?
2. Do you plan to add ways to influence world generation beyond parameters? E.g. civ placement, a "pre history" terrain editor, a way to influence the chronology of creation, design a god to be worshipped, way to more precisely choose how many of each type of civ will be added etc.
3. Any plans to add more interactions / consequences based on personalities / beliefs in the near future?
4. I understand Putnam's focus is on multi threading / performance enhancements. Once these are stable and performance is acceptable, what's her next focus? Bugs? new mechanics/New features? Adventure mode/fortress mode? Some combination?
(I know choosing the number of each civ for world generation can be done already by editing RAWS but it's cumbersome)
Post by: Putnam on July 21, 2023, 04:29:33 pm
1. Is still the case that the map rework is required before adventure mode? This means world generation is being reworked, right?
2. Do you plan to add ways to influence world generation beyond parameters? E.g. civ placement, a "pre history" terrain editor, a way to influence the chronology of creation, design a god to be worshipped, way to more precisely choose how many of each type of civ will be added etc.
3. Any plans to add more interactions / consequences based on personalities / beliefs in the near future?
4. I understand Putnam's focus is on multi threading / performance enhancements. Once these are stable and performance is acceptable, what's her next focus? Bugs? new mechanics/New features? Adventure mode/fortress mode? Some combination?
(I know choosing the number of each civ for world generation can be done already by editing RAWS but it's cumbersome)
1. Oh dear, that was never the case, what a horror world this would be. Nah, adventure mode is definitely coming first.
4. I dunno. I'm enjoying what I'm doing.
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 22, 2023, 03:15:23 am
1. There have been some limited map handling changes with the Premium release, but the talk about separating the map into layers that can be loaded independently to facilitate adventure mode in particular (and enable new functionality generally) is part of the map rewrite and will not be connected to the current/near future adventure mode update. It's possible the map rewrite will enable new adventure mode stuff that might be performed in post map rewrite updates, but the same is true with other future changes, such as workshop restructuring and moving "terrain". It's a cycle of providing new functionality and making use of it.
1. Is still the case that the map rework is required before adventure mode? This means world generation is being reworked, right?
2. Do you plan to add ways to influence world generation beyond parameters? E.g. civ placement, a "pre history" terrain editor, a way to influence the chronology of creation, design a god to be worshipped, way to more precisely choose how many of each type of civ will be added etc.
:
(I know choosing the number of each civ for world generation can be done already by editing RAWs but it's cumbersome)
Note that I'm trying to build upon Putnam's response, not contradict it in any way.
2. DF had a horrible mouse only map editor pre Premium (I don't know if it still remains, but it probably does), and there were a number of scripts that could be used with DFHack to modify terrain (they don't work post the Premium release because they haven't been updated to work with the new UI, and they don't have a chance to be modified to work post Premium until full keyboard support has been restored to DF. It's possible that a mouse only version could be implemented by someone interested in doing that, though).
Civ placement can be affected via RAWs as well (what type of terrain a race's civs can start in and expand to).
As far a I know the intention is to allow myth generation to use player supplied pre generated RAWs instead of generating new ones for parts of the process when provided, including using player supplied deity RAWs instead of generting ones. How this pans out and whether there will be restrictions mostly won't be known until the myth implementation is actually performed, though.
Post by: falcc on July 24, 2023, 10:51:09 am
There's a lot of cool broke nerds out there that would enjoy seeing their niche field of study and related books exposed on steam, especially as academic labor strikes start up again in the fall. But I can also understand if the studying you put in is part of the fun of your job, or if that would throw off your long term calculations for all the staff you've got now. Thanks for the answers and for the game!
Post by: dikbutdagrate on July 25, 2023, 01:29:51 am
Now that you have a lot more money at your disposal, have you given any thought to paying scholars on things like historical crafting methods (or cooking, the tech tree, farming etc when you eventually revisit them) to consult for future changes to those respective systems?
There's a lot of cool broke nerds out there that would enjoy seeing their niche field of study and related books exposed on steam, especially as academic labor strikes start up again in the fall. But I can also understand if the studying you put in is part of the fun of your job, or if that would throw off your long term calculations for all the staff you've got now. Thanks for the answers and for the game!
Obviously, Tarn should hire an actual wizard as a consultant come Myth and Magic.
How else will the developers know how to differentiate KAlSi3O8 from the radiant Gork metal, that has been blessed by the shining hand of Ol'Gork?
Of course, I nominate myself for the position.
Fortunately for the members of the Bay12 community, and Tarn, my services will include the provision of fine expertly crafted IRL wereworm charms, which are made out of... lets see here... the uh... Ah yes! The finest thistle, BBQ horseradish sauce, and uhh... ordinary pocket lint! Which is all definitely not stuff that I just happened to find within the immediate vicinity, and should provide the developers with more than ample protection, in the event they are attacked by wereworms. Which are real! And whose diets consist largely of uhh, successful indie start up developers, and people that look like Tarn Adams. (Yes, that'll do.)
As not hiring me would be insupposable, I would be only too happy to charge a
Post by: ryno on July 25, 2023, 12:14:12 pm
i was wondering why stone cavern floors arent color palleted per type so they match the walls
thank u. and great job on the game!
Post by: Svenor on July 26, 2023, 01:16:57 am
hello
i was wondering about animal alimentation, after seeing that Pandas eat bamboos in the game. i didn't have bamboo on my embark but i really wanted to have a panda zoo in this fort, so i went to the raw to make them classic grazers.
i commented the specific alimentation token and it made me wonder why animal alimentation is so simple in the game, when the code seems almost complete on this part (there is a token for specific alimentation, it goes a little beyond "grazers eat grass"). apart from grazers (and pandas and maybe other specific animals), they don't need any food or water to survive, in my forts, it often became a empty rock chamber entirely populated by pigs that i open only to bring a few of them to the butcher shop.
1- Do you intend to expend on that in the future, handling carnivors eating other animals, etc ?
2- if so, do you tie it with a major future update in particular or do you class it in a "minor tweaks" group ?
anyway, thanks for developing this masterwork
Post by: Eric Blank on July 26, 2023, 05:54:33 am
dear Toady,
i was wondering why stone cavern floors arent color palleted per type so they match the walls
thank u. and great job on the game!
Probably because a lot of players found that annoying in order versions. People wanted floors to be homogenous, without having to pave over them with blocks. A toggle or something to display it with mineral or bedrock colors would be neat, though.
Post by: Beag on July 30, 2023, 07:13:58 pm
Post by: mikekchar on July 30, 2023, 08:28:05 pm
Post by: sofanthiel on July 31, 2023, 01:19:36 am
I, personally, think the idea of mail pigeons and misunderstandings between civilizations due to an emissary not making it somewhere on time, thus resulting in a great war, would be cool, but either of these methods, if incompatible, will be great!
Post by: Pillbo on August 03, 2023, 12:30:41 am
Do you think of them as being more of a threat or will they always be less dangerous in battle than the other species? Or will they be deadly force once magic is in play?
(I'm aware the future of the game is more variety of everything in each world. I'm more interested in how Toady imagines the creatures in his 'head canon')
Post by: dikbutdagrate on August 03, 2023, 06:40:43 pm
Will any adventure mode glitches be fixed for the steam release? For example, will the glitch where if you fast travel after being transformed into a giant animal by divination dice then exit fast travel you turn back to normal again before the week is up be fixed?
I still remember running across the length of an entire continent in real time as a rhesus macaque, just so I could wait out the transformation. I dunno what it was, but I was determined to deal with the curse without taking the easy out, but man was that horrible, lol. Thats interesting you say it ends early though. For me, it always just crashes the game.
edit: clarity
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 04, 2023, 01:59:18 am
Elves aren't really much of a threat in the current build of the game. I understand nothing is finished, but it made me wonder-- How do you imagine the elves in some finished version of the game you are working towards? As far as combat and magical abilities, wisdom or intelligence, etc when compared to the other species./color]
(I'm aware the future of the game is more variety of everything in each world. I'm more interested in how Toady imagines the creatures in his 'head canon')
It used to be the case that elves utilized ents in the earliest iterations. Perhaps it will come into the military arc's end of inflicting curses upon fortressess who shut themselves away but thats all up to Toady. (link to refer back (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8316954#msg8316954) to mention of ents in 2021 using the [MAGICAL] and [VEGETATION] tags)
On elves themselves, often they're a meatgrinder opponent that tests your traphalls by the sheer volume, such as giant animals being too heavy to pull up your bridges or pressure plates, or if you didn't build a couple of trap-halls interlinked on a longer route, sending forward so much warrior and animal fodder that the mechanisms jam and let the rest of the force run past.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on August 05, 2023, 08:38:47 pm
At present, the color differences are only respected in ASCII mode. And due to how the divine metals populate during world-gen, its not clear, at least to me, whether modders are, or will be, able to assign their individual sprite graphics for all the different different divine metal items, or are at least do so safely. It would be neat to see a wider color palette on these.
edit: brevity
Post by: DPh Kraken on August 07, 2023, 12:43:17 am
Will divine metal items be getting their own palette swapped variations in the near future, or is it just something thats not even on the radar?
Divine items are affected by palettes, but the coloration is set to gray in the sprite due to raw-parsing details not outwardly evident until Premium. Using extracted raws, the issue is that the [STATE_COLOR] tag is placed before the [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE] tag is implemented, thus causing it to be overwritten by metal's [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:GRAY]. From my testing in arena mode in both 47 and 50, the metal template also overwrites the ASCII colors by virtue of being placed after it.
Datamining raws say that rusted metal should be rust-colored and 4:0:0, but DFHack corroborates that its state color is gray and has a 7:0:0 display color. The same bug affects divine silks as well, except with silk's white coloration.
Reflecting that in the unit picture is probably going to be a question of doing palettization at runtime, since divine materials currently don't have consistent IDs to reference.
Post by: Toady One on August 08, 2023, 01:54:04 am
Quote from: Vanzetti
People have noted that waves breaking on the shore, and the foam they spread around, currently look a lot less impressive in Graphics mode than in ASCII mode. Is there a plan to remedy this?
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486827#msg8486827
Vanzetti (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486853#msg8486853
It's one of the things on the art list! It's complicated by the existence of the actual ocean-type tiles, so would have to align with that, making it inherently blocky, but that's been true of lots of things.
Quote from: Nihilich
1) When you say that you plan for everything from the old version to be on steam, does that mean you plan to add the old intro movies back to the game? They're iconic and I love how they set the mood.
2) What is the nature of the code-sharing deal you worked out with the DF hack team? Are you taking precautions against potential copyright issues?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486887#msg8486887
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486943#msg8486943
Nihilich (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487051#msg8487051
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487083#msg8487083
1) Ha, well those haven't made it back to classic either. They're still in limbo. I still think it might be too confusing for people to be hit with ASCII when they explicitly buy something thought to be not the ASCII version of a thing that had been solely ASCII for 20 years, but maybe it's fine.
2) The replies address this. We haven't been doing anything there, mostly -- I believe there is something involving custom keybindings Putnam sent over, and it's a small enough type of thing and so game specific that I'm not worried about broader copyright sourcing issues as long as the bits themselves are licensed under zlib etc.
Quote from: Majer3RD
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the state of diplomacy and interaction between the other civilizations? Do you intend to expand on diplomacy and maybe even visiting other locations with diplomats? Absolutely love your work on this game and will forever tip my hat to you for such an amazing life project.
Potential thought on the diplomat visiting idea. Could there be a mini-adventurer mini game within fortress mode? Maybe it utilizes squad mode to control your diplomat and navigate the visiting fortress to reach and find said site’s leader, all the while avoiding traps and unruly citizens or other unwanted guests at a location.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487187#msg8487187
Yeah, as voliol replied, there are a few shorter term (as in army stuff) goals involving peace discussions and raising troops and alliances that should happen before we get to the more complicated rewrites. As for actually playing them, seeing other sites and interacting with them while your fort is in play is under the multiple viewport part of the map rewrite. That's more involved but should lead to all sorts of neat interactions.
Quote from: Tekkud
With a military uniform overhaul on the table, I'm curious if it has ever crossed your mind to make it possible to designate some clothing as military only? Surely there's plenty of ways to make it work. Perhaps an 'equipment use' menu akin to the 'stone use' menu, or just rigid priority for the military to claim uniform items before civilians. I bet there's a dozen ways to skin such a cat.
Especially with premium graphics, the idea of having a military equipped with identifying garments is compelling, at least for me. Grizzly bear leather cloaks embroidered with the symbol of our warrior deity, and a helm studded with the visage of each forgotten beast slain by its wearer? Yes please! To less flamboyant ends, lots of players I interact with just want the humble option to give their favorite Dwarf a special shirt.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487385#msg8487385
Yeah, specific tweaks work better in suggestions, but generally, it would be good to fix up stuff that makes the existing uniform creator not work well, like civilians snatching stuff up that you'd rather they not use, kind of like a noble mandate by the player, with a few grumpy dwarves perhaps if the materials line up with their prefs.
Quote from: Salvadaddy
Would you consider altering the lifespan of the Sponge Man to be more sponge-like? Currently they live between 60-80 years, while regular sea sponges can live for thousands
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487554#msg8487554
Ha ha, yeah, that's definitely a suggestion. Generally I'd agree that simple sponge-like alterations make sense if the biology lines up. Although we've had trouble in the past making sponges too sponge-like, or at least, spongey in some sense that made them less killable.
Quote from: Majer3RD
I can’t seem to find a full answer as to why, but is there anyway for me to edit the engraving text phrases used when one makes a custom slab or art description? I would even love it if we could somehow have a custom text fill in option too if that was somehow possible. Mainly I figured we should be able to at least alter the existing phrases to read a little bit different if desired but the only answer I seem to get is, it’s hardcoded. Is there a reason this is the case?
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487788#msg8487788
There isn't a way to do it currently. I'm not sure why there would be a full answer as to why, since it's just a feature that's not in the game. It takes time to do things. I think it's fine though I generally lean toward letting the dwarves decide how they want to memorialize somebody. As with the custom art though, there's no reason why the player shouldn't be able to do custom stuff.
Quote from: Silverwing235
Given that UI is your current focus: are you aware of certain procgen code shenanigans (gremlin-style lever pulling, I guess) causing disruption in adv character gen, such as this (Kitfox: https://discord.com/channels/329272032778780672/1049402643342168114/1119264182093758541); also a long-standing calendar ☼engraving☼ that needs attention?
EDIT: Looks like someone's also taken issue (Kitfox:https://discord.com/channels/329272032778780672/847643850612801536/1133749707257168004) with, IIRC, your marking of the 'Outsider' category for (programmatic) dumping, as it were. Care to remind us just what that was about?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487802#msg8487802
It's not letting me follow the links for whatever reason. But if it's a bug yeah, it's better to report it. I can't track stuff from here.
Quote from: Majer3RD
Any idea on when you think you’ll do so more work on the way the text for engravings and artwork is utilized? Will you be adding custom line functions or at least more to the existing lists of current options?
It's hard to say when a given thing will happen, but we have some statues and engraving artwork ready to go. There will have to be new txt tags for them.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
YES! Do it! Procedural alchemy is YES! Go for it! Initial release could be full random, and I imagine that would be highly entertaining.
Relevant: Have you ever played Alchemists, the board game?
Nope!
Quote from: hitorigochi
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future? Because writing in the library doesn't require pen and ink, it feels like the words written on paper are out of thin air. It feels strange.
Another question, do dwarves not use any tools when fishing? Will fishing rods be added in the future?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489088#msg8489088
hitorigochi (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489106#msg8489106
SeeSchloss: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489248#msg8489248
etc.
As PatrikLundell replied, many jobs don't use tools and many don't use materials. There's a certain amount of clutter we can't absorb in fort mode especially. But I think ink is cool and probably makes sense, since it would be reflected in the final product. We have some notes about it and several suggestions I think. I know I also have an old email about it from somebody that studies medieval inks, or something like that.
Quote from: ror6ax
When will the merch be available in Europe?
I have no idea. Fangamer or Kitfox probably know. I'll make a note to ask and reply back here.
Quote from: ShiraKage
1a- About future law arc, will we have a bounty system? It would be good if the only way to learn someone's bounty is looking at boards in the towns or with rumors (rumors can be wrong but you will never know until you find the truth). Also bounties can change depending on person's crimes. Also I would love playing as a bounty hunter and compete with other bounty hunters in the world. If you become more and more popular, towns could also ask for help (both for our player and other characters)
1b- If they catch us and put in a prison, will we actually live in a prison life? Like maybe every prison has its own rules, difficulty (easy to escape or more developed and hard to escape), different guardians (some guardians are more friendly, some are more strict) more interactions with people in prison, trade with them etc.
2- About myth and magic arc, will we see different kinds of magical systems like maybe a world which only way to cast a magic spell is upgrade items and weapons with runes or other materials?
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489647#msg8489647
1a- there have been discussions about it. Not sure when it'll happen. There's a chunk on this one on the dev page at http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html .
1b- Interesting prisons have been the settings for entire RPGs. So as long as it's fun, it works. It's a bit complicated getting the player there with the rest of the world going on, but generally being captured and moved is also one of those things knocking around on dev pages.
2- We're hoping for some variety in the procedural systems. Hard to say what we'll get on the first pass!
Quote from: hitorigochi
Will anti piracy features be added in the future? I found that the game can be opened without starting Steam.
sofanthiel: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489799#msg8489799
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489848#msg8489848
Yeah, as Putnam said, no plans to add anti-piracy stuff and potentially cause trouble for people. Things are going fine.
Quote from: Bottle
1. Is still the case that the map rework is required before adventure mode? This means world generation is being reworked, right?
2. Do you plan to add ways to influence world generation beyond parameters? E.g. civ placement, a "pre history" terrain editor, a way to influence the chronology of creation, design a god to be worshipped, way to more precisely choose how many of each type of civ will be added etc.
3. Any plans to add more interactions / consequences based on personalities / beliefs in the near future?
4. I understand Putnam's focus is on multi threading / performance enhancements. Once these are stable and performance is acceptable, what's her next focus? Bugs? new mechanics/New features? Adventure mode/fortress mode? Some combination?
(I know choosing the number of each civ for world generation can be done already by editing RAWS but it's cumbersome)
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489988#msg8489988
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8490070#msg8490070
1. Yeah, the replies are correct here - the map rework will be done after the adventure mode update.
2. In the future, yeah, this is the "editors" side of the myth/magic stuff, which basically just means a bunch of ways to incorporate presets or constrained procedural stuff, in addition or replacing the pure procedural stuff.
3. Aside from what comes up when we do villains/army stuff, not really, though the villains/army stuff includes quite a bit of this. I'm not sure what else will happen incidentally.
4. I don't have much to add to Putnam's reply here, ha ha. We don't have a fixed plan for it.
Quote from: falcc
Now that you have a lot more money at your disposal, have you given any thought to paying scholars on things like historical crafting methods (or cooking, the tech tree, farming etc when you eventually revisit them) to consult for future changes to those respective systems?
There's a lot of cool broke nerds out there that would enjoy seeing their niche field of study and related books exposed on steam, especially as academic labor strikes start up again in the fall. But I can also understand if the studying you put in is part of the fun of your job, or if that would throw off your long term calculations for all the staff you've got now. Thanks for the answers and for the game!
A lot of historical stuff is already reflected far beyond what's currently in the game over on the suggestions board. There's a ton of information there already that's been digested a bit gamewise, though part of the problem is doing that, which I have to do myself at some stage in the process. So I'm not really sure how this would be structured or what needs to be looked at even more deeply. I know I've complained a bit about the 'tech tree' - it's not clear to me if some of the current suggestions (I know there are a few extensive ones) would benefit a lot from being looked at. Probably, but I still feel pretty far away from it.
Quote from: ryno
i was wondering why stone cavern floors arent color palleted per type so they match the walls
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8490792#msg8490792
Yeah, Eric Blank's reply is right - it can be pretty distracting. We're toying around with trying muted optional colors. Other mining-type games seem to make it work okay, but we'll see how it looks.
Quote from: Svenor
i was wondering about animal alimentation, after seeing that Pandas eat bamboos in the game. i didn't have bamboo on my embark but i really wanted to have a panda zoo in this fort, so i went to the raw to make them classic grazers.
i commented the specific alimentation token and it made me wonder why animal alimentation is so simple in the game, when the code seems almost complete on this part (there is a token for specific alimentation, it goes a little beyond "grazers eat grass"). apart from grazers (and pandas and maybe other specific animals), they don't need any food or water to survive, in my forts, it often became a empty rock chamber entirely populated by pigs that i open only to bring a few of them to the butcher shop.
1- Do you intend to expend on that in the future, handling carnivors eating other animals, etc ?
2- if so, do you tie it with a major future update in particular or do you class it in a "minor tweaks" group ?
There's a lot to do, and of course we never got there. It's definitely all in the minor tweaks group. The major arcs are kind of set out for years and years. But lots of random minor stuff gets done during that time.
Quote from: Beag
Will any adventure mode glitches be fixed for the steam release? For example, will the glitch where if you fast travel after being transformed into a giant animal by divination dice then exit fast travel you turn back to normal again before the week is up be fixed?
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8491690#msg8491690
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8492362#msg8492362
As mikekchar says, definitely some things will be fixed. I don't have a prognosis on specific bugs. That particular one has the complication of needing to track syndrome information and advance it properly abstractly for historical figures, which simply isn't done and is difficult because we don't have access to their bodies etc.
Quote from: sofanthiel
As of right now, the player is informed of the outcomes of battles only upon the return of the squads they send out. In regards to the future release of better diplomacy/military management, you've talked about implementing more conventional total war-ish 4x strategy combat, with us getting a real-time view of entire armies fighting in enemies' settlements. Is the current approach of information having to travel through the world via messengers and alike going to be replaced by the player being instantly notified of everything as it happens, or do you have some way to mitigate the conflict between these 2 somewhat clashing systems?
I, personally, think the idea of mail pigeons and misunderstandings between civilizations due to an emissary not making it somewhere on time, thus resulting in a great war, would be cool, but either of these methods, if incompatible, will be great!
Yeah, we have the concept of messengers vaguely in the game, and we're going to expand on that. However, having player participation in battles is also important, just for fun. So there's a balance between those we're going to try to strike, probably where you can experience battles with your specific squad leaders but if you have more forces where you haven't attached a fort squad, you'll have to hear from those in the normal way. But it's not quite clear where the balance will land. Similarly, in adventure land, there's your created party (or single adventurer), and everybody else - you'll probably have more POV options on your created characters.
Quote from: Pillbo
Elves aren't really much of a threat in the current build of the game. I understand nothing is finished, but it made me wonder-- How do you imagine the elves in some finished version of the game you are working towards? As far as combat and magical abilities, wisdom or intelligence, etc when compared to the other species.
Do you think of them as being more of a threat or will they always be less dangerous in battle than the other species? Or will they be deadly force once magic is in play?
(I'm aware the future of the game is more variety of everything in each world. I'm more interested in how Toady imagines the creatures in his 'head canon')
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8492407#msg8492407
Yeah, they used to be more magical. I remember the arrows that would turn into wood spike balls and make chunks pop out. I'm not sure if that's still the plan though. I think more friendship with animal people should make them more dangerous certainly. I'm not sure they'll ever be great at sieging the interior of a fortress but they should be able to lock you in their tighter by squeezing you with nature in some manner. And they ambush and eat people. So that should feel scary in a way it doesn't now.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
s
Will divine metal items be getting their own palette swapped variations in the near future, or is it just something thats not even on the radar?
At present, the color differences are only respected in ASCII mode. And due to how the divine metals populate during world-gen, its not clear, at least to me, whether modders are, or will be, able to assign their individual sprite graphics for all the different different divine metal items, or are at least do so safely. It would be neat to see a wider color palette on these.
DPh Kraken: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8492899#msg8492899
Yeah, if there's a bug there's a bug (per DPh Kraken's reply), and for equipped items, I have an art file with palettes ready, I believe. Just have to implement.
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 08, 2023, 02:50:37 am
Post by: dikbutdagrate on August 08, 2023, 02:58:44 pm
People have noted that waves breaking on the shore, and the foam they spread around, currently look a lot less impressive in Graphics mode than in ASCII mode. Is there a plan to remedy this?
For sure, and just moving water in general. But yeah, Toady is a master ascii artisan.
Sparkling effect when viewing moving water from a height of +2z levels was especially neat.
Gif of water doing water things:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: mikekchar on August 08, 2023, 07:01:47 pm
Post by: ryno on August 08, 2023, 10:02:06 pm
@dikbutdagrate thanks for making the gif for the ascii water. There's a video on youtube that i really like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8pV6UQybfw
Post by: crazy_old_fisherman on August 09, 2023, 04:06:17 am
Post by: kipwheeler on August 09, 2023, 05:35:00 am
Post by: Eric Blank on August 09, 2023, 11:03:35 am
Post by: clinodev on August 09, 2023, 03:28:25 pm
When will the merch be available in Europe?
I had asked Alexandra Orlando at Kitfox about this a few days ago, and she messaged Fangamer (the merch company), and just got a reply.
Long story short, it's in the works, but there's no fixed date. It sounds like it depends almost entirely on Fangamer.
Post by: mikekchar on August 09, 2023, 07:41:20 pm
[...] is there any update on MacOS versions [...]
My guess: expect it to be months.
My reasoning: About a month ago the Linux version was ready to be tested "tomorrow".... And then it appears that life circumstances have interfered (See the last monthly update). We have to wait for family issues to stabilise (hoping for the best!). Then there are two more trade shows, which will interfere with coordination. Then I *guess* the Linux version will be going out *as long as there are no problems* (which I think is unlikely, so tack on another couple of weeks). And *then* the Mac version can be *started*.
Even with all of those things said, priorities will also be an issue. For better or worse, this is a programmer led project and as a fellow programmer you know what it means when project managers aren't really involved :-). Both good things and bad things... It's going to happen eventually, but honestly I just can't see it realistically happening quickly. It's not that it's impossible, but to do so would mean really restructuring the way they are organising themselves and I don't see that happening.
Post by: lethosor on August 09, 2023, 09:00:39 pm
May I also softly hint that MacOS users comprise about a third of the market (I could find the source but that would be pedantic even for me) and that as MacOS has switched to ARM64/aarch64 it might be prudent to release a version for the mac and linux users on ARM? I know that I at least have not bought a copy yet as it doesn't run on my personal computer. Perhaps this is true for a significant number of people.At least historically, DF users on Linux have far exceeded users on macOS. My understanding is that's part of the reason why Linux is being prioritized.
Many of the delays on Linux have been due to library issues. DF v50 on Windows recently upgraded to SDL2, but had also needed to upgrade FMOD for sound, upgraded to a new compiler for newer C++ features, and probably more that I am forgetting. Linux DF needed similar upgrades for modernization (and I believe an entirely new SDL_mixer backend for music was added), and those all have taken time. I expect macOS to face similar upgrades and delays.
Getting DF built on ARM will certainly add more work on its own - that has never been done before, and although the source code likely won't have to be changed, the build system almost certainly will need changes, and dependencies might as well. Hardware access is likely another big challenge - if Bay12 wants to test these builds themselves, they would need ARM hardware, and likely also newer x86 hardware to run x86 builds, since my understanding is that their previous Mac hardware is well past its EOL.
Quote
I've seen written by Putnam that it 'could be' as simple as pressing a buttonI'm skeptical that this is the case, but it is true that once DF is compiling on Linux, getting it to compile on macOS has generally been pretty easy in the past. They have historically used the same compiler (GCC); new macOS builds might transition to Clang, but GCC and Clang typically behave much more similarly than GCC and MSVC (on Windows), so I expect building DF on macOS to be fairly straightforward once it's building on Linux. Getting it to run is another story, which is what I was getting at above.
Post by: Silverwing235 on August 12, 2023, 10:54:17 am
Post by: mikekchar on August 12, 2023, 08:13:02 pm
Post by: Silverwing235 on August 13, 2023, 09:42:32 am
My understanding is that there was no intended pronunciation originally. The wiki has suggested pronunciation here: https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Dwarven_languageYes, it does have suggestions in its general scope, hence my original link.
Post by: mikekchar on August 13, 2023, 07:25:37 pm
Post by: Putnam on August 16, 2023, 08:52:48 pm
At the risk of adding to a chorus, is there any update on MacOS versions. I've seen written by Putnam that it 'could be' as simple as pressing a button. An experienced developer myself I know this to be at the very least highly optimistic. However I would really love to know that it is too difficult to do rather than untried. May I also softly hint that MacOS users comprise about a third of the market (I could find the source but that would be pedantic even for me) and that as MacOS has switched to ARM64/aarch64 it might be prudent to release a version for the mac and linux users on ARM? I know that I at least have not bought a copy yet as it doesn't run on my personal computer. Perhaps this is true for a significant number of people.
It was intended as a perfect-world highly optimistic statement, yes. I expect it to take much longer, far longer. Like, once I get a setup I'm expecting it to take... well, longer than is reasonable. It could be a button press, but probably won't be, I get that, don't you worry.
Post by: Bralbaard on August 18, 2023, 02:12:04 am
I'm currently doing some megaprojects that would be a lot of fun to explore in adventure mode (railroads over multiple embarks), but was wondering if I should build more of those, or if I should focus on other projects.
Post by: Silverwing235 on August 18, 2023, 06:13:15 am
It was intended as a perfect-world highly optimistic statement, yes. I expect it to take much longer, far longer. Like, once I get a setup I'm expecting it to take... well, longer than is reasonable. It could[/b] be a button press, but probably won't be, I get that, don't you worry.
...pardon me, couldn't help but notice the formatting bellyflop in the second sentence.
Post by: Nihilich on August 21, 2023, 11:48:29 pm
I know in earlier versions of DF (40d?) that the rock generation - or at least the metal generation - used to be different. From a geological standpoint, the generation today is quite strange, with giant ovals of different rock stacking over each other like the biggest layer cake on earth, from the circus to the surface. With every map tile, you basically know what you'll always get: a base square of layer stone, a giant oval of a different layer stone in the middle, and zero to several ores zigging through it.
Why is it done this way? Is this rock gen a holdover from the 23a days or such? Any plans to model, like, igneous intrusion, plate tectonics, stratified rocks, with the rock-tiles themselves in-game? Do geologists ever send you letters? ;) 8)
cheers, thanks for the game toady. you "rock" too.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 22, 2023, 06:15:38 am
I don't know of any games that accurately depict the geology, or biology, that you see in the real world. At least DF has ores showing up in the right geological environments, though, instead of something like biome dependencies.
I don't think plate tectonics is really a possibility, at least not for DF. Maybe it could be set up to draw plates, set whether boundaries are converging, diverging, subducting or passing, and generate mountain ranges where continental plates are colliding and rift valleys where they're pulling apart, and put volcanoes there and where one is subducting under the other. But simulating actual geologic history between plates would be, like, a whole program to itself. Like Universe Sandbox but for a single planet.
Post by: Elbow on August 23, 2023, 03:52:06 am
But simulating actual geologic history between plates would be, like, a whole program to itself. Like Universe Sandbox but for a single planet.
Aw, how hard could... the mantle's fluid dynamics(?) be to model and simulate? :P
Post by: Lozzymandias on August 23, 2023, 07:51:42 am
Hope you guys are doing alright.
Is there any plans to tighten up the needs system and make dwarfs a little better at satisfying their own needs if given the opportunity. There are good workarounds for everything but the 5 f's I believe: faith, family, friends, Food and... romance.
Post by: Bumber on August 23, 2023, 08:05:22 pm
There are good workarounds for everything but the 5 f's I believe: faith, family, friends, Food and... romance.
Pretty sure food is solved. They'll accept high quality meals in place of preferred ingredients. (Units that don't need to eat are still an issue.)
Post by: Lozzymandias on August 24, 2023, 02:27:10 am
There are good workarounds for everything but the 5 f's I believe: faith, family, friends, Food and... romance.
Pretty sure food is solved. They'll accept high quality meals in place of preferred ingredients. (Units that don't need to eat are still an issue.)
Oh marvelous. I look forward to enjoying that fix soon as the linux port is done.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on August 24, 2023, 03:09:06 am
There are good workarounds for everything but the 5 f's I believe: faith, family, friends, Food and... romance.
Pretty sure food is solved. They'll accept high quality meals in place of preferred ingredients. (Units that don't need to eat are still an issue.)
Oh marvelous. I look forward to enjoying that fix soon as the linux port is done.
It’s already in 0.47.05, in case that’s what your using.
Post by: mikekchar on August 24, 2023, 04:35:50 am
There are good workarounds for everything but the 5 f's I believe: faith, family, friends, Food and... romance.
Pretty sure food is solved. They'll accept high quality meals in place of preferred ingredients. (Units that don't need to eat are still an issue.)
Oh marvelous. I look forward to enjoying that fix soon as the linux port is done.
It’s already in 0.47.05, in case that’s what your using.
Just to be clear, dwarfs will search out food that they prefer in a certain radius from where they are when they decide to eat (I believe it's 140 tiles in all directions). They will also prioritize meals with their preferred food over raw ingredients of their preferred food. I've tested this a lot on bot 0.47.05 and 0.50.
I don't think they *always* select meals over uncooked ingredients if it is not a preferred food. I occasionally get dwarfs eating lettuce leafs instead of meals. However, I don't personally consider this a problem. It's the only way you can get seeds for garden vegetables, for example. I have not determined what rules their choice here because it does not seem to be proximity to the food (I always assumed that a dwarf will eat the closest food if there is no preferred food, but that doesn't seem to fit my observations). Honestly, I would like it to be a little more clear what the considerations are so I could game it a bit (gotta have that lettuce!). Also, if I'm wishing, I'd love it if animals were fed from food that was closest to the animal, not the food that is closest to the dwarf feeding the animal. I could have stockpiles of alfalfa next to my restrained goats and always feed them with it. It would be wonderful! But I digress :-)
Post by: Heiz on August 24, 2023, 08:11:41 am
1. Will new quest system be the only feature we will get for adventure mode or there will be something soon in near future?
2. I heard there will be new starting scenarios one day and i thought that probably pretty big thing to add, so i wanted to ask if it will affect adventure mode as well, except that we will be able to find them in world and interact with npcs there? And will new scanerios be similar to fortress scenario or will it they give new mechanics or change them in any way? Will there be scenarios that you didn't mention or the list that we know is probably all scenarios that we will have?
3. After you add adventue mode will our worlds be able to work with it?
Post by: Blue_Dwarf on August 24, 2023, 08:40:24 am
Just to be clear, dwarfs will search out food that they prefer in a certain radius from where they are when they decide to eat (I believe it's 140 tiles in all directions). They will also prioritize meals with their preferred food over raw ingredients of their preferred food. I've tested this a lot on bot 0.47.05 and 0.50.None of that is actually working. They simply ignore any preferred ingredients in cooked meal. I made a topic about it some time ago:
I don't think they *always* select meals over uncooked ingredients if it is not a preferred food. I occasionally get dwarfs eating lettuce leafs instead of meals. However, I don't personally consider this a problem. It's the only way you can get seeds for garden vegetables, for example. I have not determined what rules their choice here because it does not seem to be proximity to the food (I always assumed that a dwarf will eat the closest food if there is no preferred food, but that doesn't seem to fit my observations). Honestly, I would like it to be a little more clear what the considerations are so I could game it a bit (gotta have that lettuce!). Also, if I'm wishing, I'd love it if animals were fed from food that was closest to the animal, not the food that is closest to the dwarf feeding the animal. I could have stockpiles of alfalfa next to my restrained goats and always feed them with it. It would be wonderful! But I digress :-)
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=181270.msg8448280#msg8448280
And the good thought they get from a quality meal is not the same they get from their preferred ingredient.
Post by: mikekchar on August 24, 2023, 07:07:56 pm
Post by: sofanthiel on August 25, 2023, 04:26:06 am
Hear ye, hear ye! I come here on behalf of these (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180669.0) threads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180949.0) to ask a few questions in regards to the recent change to the dwarven maturity age, along with other civilized creatures'. First off, children performing chores such as planting/hauling, thus becoming less useless, is a very welcome addition! Now, onto the queries:
I. Will we see a more fleshed-out and gradual development process with extra intermediate youth stages in the future (i.e., toddlers --> kids --> adolescents --> adults)? It is quite odd for a dwarf to play make-believe with their toy boat one day and be recruited into the army the next.
II. If not, are there plans to alter either time progression or aging speed in order to balance out the fact that it takes 18 whole years for a resident to mature, making it harder to have fort-born babies grow up to adulthood, resulting in multi-generational fortresses being even less feasible now?
Post by: Orange-of-Cthulhu on August 25, 2023, 06:58:32 pm
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on August 27, 2023, 05:20:25 am
About the Steam release of Adv Mode - I wonder if the intention is "just" to do graphics and fix the many UIs, and then release it with pretty much the gameplay of the pre-Steam version - or if the goal is to streamline it some more before release by filling out some the "holes" in the gameplay - such as the impossibility of geting clothes and armor for very large/small animal people?Not meant as an answer, but you can make the stuff in a fortress and have your adventurer visit to pick up his change of clothes.
Post by: eerr on August 28, 2023, 06:02:30 pm
Will myth and magic include an achievable source of perpetual longevity? My fortresses in older versions evenually loose 10 dwarves every year to old age. It's kind of heartbreaking. I understand that death is to be accepted in dwarf fortress, but it should not be a third of a fortress for no reason, causing the player to abandon their history.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 28, 2023, 07:16:12 pm
I bet it would depend on whether your magic setting, after the myth and magic update, is high enough to make immortality/life extension common in that world. Right now you would normally go about raiding necromancer towers to get books with secrets, but if certain artifact furniture, like a bed adds twenty years to the life expectancy of anyone that sleeps in it, thats going to be much easier to manage than a bunch of anxious booze-deprived necromancers.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on August 28, 2023, 07:52:43 pm
Right now you would normally go about raiding necromancer towers to get books with secrets, but if certain artifact furniture, like a bed adds twenty years to the life expectancy of anyone that sleeps in it, thats going to be much easier to manage than a bunch of anxious booze-deprived necromancers.
That’s assuming that Toady One doesn’t replace the current poisoners with proper barkeeps…
Post by: Orange-of-Cthulhu on August 29, 2023, 04:24:59 am
About the Steam release of Adv Mode - I wonder if the intention is "just" to do graphics and fix the many UIs, and then release it with pretty much the gameplay of the pre-Steam version - or if the goal is to streamline it some more before release by filling out some the "holes" in the gameplay - such as the impossibility of geting clothes and armor for very large/small animal people?Not meant as an answer, but you can make the stuff in a fortress and have your adventurer visit to pick up his change of clothes.
Sure, but it's very inconvenient.
I also meant the armor thing as a handwave at all the other stuff that is "missing". Like you can murder and steal freely in towns with no law coming after you, you can get quests to other continents you cannot reach with some races, money is pretty much useless, healing is weird with fast travelling being the only "cure" available and so on. All these things will get fixed superbly at some point yeah, but I guess not for the Steam release.
My thinking is just about the balance of trying to more like meet the general expectation of a wider audience of an action-adventure fantasy game versus the goal of sticking to the overall development plan. I love Adv Mode as it is, but I'm not sure how the wider audience will react when they do stuff that normally is good to do in fantasy games like amassing money and then it's a dead end sort of.
Post by: Bralbaard on August 31, 2023, 01:40:50 am
Fortress mode saw some small additions and new stuff during the conversion, and was rebalanced in some ways to make it easier and less deadly for new players. I expect adventure mode will get a similar treatment. The manual targeting of limbs etc. in combat/wrestling is somewhat clumsy. I could see how a graphical interface could improve that, but have no clue what is planned for release.
Post by: kontako on August 31, 2023, 02:47:48 am
G'day Tarn. I vaguely seem to recall there being a 'smell' sense in adventure mode, and I was wondering if it applied in fortress mode.
Dogs are mentioned to have ...a keen sense of smell, but they look like they lack the SMELL_TRIGGER token. Is it important?
Are dogs in any way better at spotting sneaky intruders than any other animal? The wiki mentioned that hunting dogs have an improved observer skill, though it didn't seem to find it when I looked.
Thanks :)
Post by: mikekchar on August 31, 2023, 06:14:45 am
There are also weird rules about stealing things and what it means for something to be stolen. If I remember correctly, it *does* affect your reputation (though your reputation isn't really used for very much at the moment). Making that kind of stuff more visible and also making it operate in a way that seems logical would be nice.
Finally, because I play with "thou shalt not steal" house rules, I tend to barter for armor and weapons that soldiers are wearing (giving them the bounty of my bone carvings). I kind of feel like it would be nice if soldiers wouldn't be quite so accommodating though (walking around naked holding 42 badly carved bone carvings after meeting me). It would also be nice if the "value" of goods was a bit more random. I once RP'd a silk trader, buying silk at one side of the map and selling it at the other. But I could only barter for essentially the exact same value each time, so there was no sense of profit. Just useless activity. Even if it were random, it would be a lot more fun.
I should make my way to the suggestions thread :-) But anyway, I think the point that there are some pretty small tweaks to adventure mode that would make a big improvement is well taken.
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 01, 2023, 06:45:06 am
The one thing about economy in adventure mode is that money is currently just broken and it wasn't always that way. I forget exactly when it got broken, but there was a time that you could sell items for coins, buy things with coins and everything would work the way you expect. It would be nice to fix it at least to the point of being able to use coins freely for everything.
There are also weird rules about stealing things and what it means for something to be stolen. If I remember correctly, it *does* affect your reputation (though your reputation isn't really used for very much at the moment). Making that kind of stuff more visible and also making it operate in a way that seems logical would be nice.
It was broken because fort mode econ was itself a steaming pile of trash at the time, in case you weren't aware. (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Dwarven_economy)
Post by: Kyo1995 on September 02, 2023, 09:04:43 pm
Do you plan on messing with forgotten beasts' behavior for the villains update pt. 2? It would be cool to have scheming monsters trying to turn your fortress into a cult or something.
Post by: clinodev on September 04, 2023, 08:38:27 pm
I wonder if you could give us a quick "near term" summary of the things you plan on working on for the next 2 months or so? Not asking for any predictions of what will get done, just a plan like we used to get in the DevLogs of what you'd like to work on!
Post by: mikekchar on September 05, 2023, 12:04:34 am
Post by: LuuBluum on September 05, 2023, 01:21:20 am
The one thing about economy in adventure mode is that money is currently just broken and it wasn't always that way. I forget exactly when it got broken, but there was a time that you could sell items for coins, buy things with coins and everything would work the way you expect. It would be nice to fix it at least to the point of being able to use coins freely for everything.
There are also weird rules about stealing things and what it means for something to be stolen. If I remember correctly, it *does* affect your reputation (though your reputation isn't really used for very much at the moment). Making that kind of stuff more visible and also making it operate in a way that seems logical would be nice.
Finally, because I play with "thou shalt not steal" house rules, I tend to barter for armor and weapons that soldiers are wearing (giving them the bounty of my bone carvings). I kind of feel like it would be nice if soldiers wouldn't be quite so accommodating though (walking around naked holding 42 badly carved bone carvings after meeting me). It would also be nice if the "value" of goods was a bit more random. I once RP'd a silk trader, buying silk at one side of the map and selling it at the other. But I could only barter for essentially the exact same value each time, so there was no sense of profit. Just useless activity. Even if it were random, it would be a lot more fun.
I should make my way to the suggestions thread :-) But anyway, I think the point that there are some pretty small tweaks to adventure mode that would make a big improvement is well taken.
I thought that it worked just fine, at least last time I played adventure mode. Sure, there were annoyances involving needing the specific local currency and that would make carrying around gems a lot more useful than carrying around cash, but I do recall being able to buy and sell at shops just fine. I think the last time I tried adventure mode was the last pre-Steam release, too.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on September 05, 2023, 01:59:08 am
The one thing about economy in adventure mode is that money is currently just broken and it wasn't always that way. I forget exactly when it got broken, but there was a time that you could sell items for coins, buy things with coins and everything would work the way you expect. It would be nice to fix it at least to the point of being able to use coins freely for everything.
There are also weird rules about stealing things and what it means for something to be stolen. If I remember correctly, it *does* affect your reputation (though your reputation isn't really used for very much at the moment). Making that kind of stuff more visible and also making it operate in a way that seems logical would be nice.
Finally, because I play with "thou shalt not steal" house rules, I tend to barter for armor and weapons that soldiers are wearing (giving them the bounty of my bone carvings). I kind of feel like it would be nice if soldiers wouldn't be quite so accommodating though (walking around naked holding 42 badly carved bone carvings after meeting me). It would also be nice if the "value" of goods was a bit more random. I once RP'd a silk trader, buying silk at one side of the map and selling it at the other. But I could only barter for essentially the exact same value each time, so there was no sense of profit. Just useless activity. Even if it were random, it would be a lot more fun.
I should make my way to the suggestions thread :-) But anyway, I think the point that there are some pretty small tweaks to adventure mode that would make a big improvement is well taken.
I thought that it worked just fine, at least last time I played adventure mode. Sure, there were annoyances involving needing the specific local currency and that would make carrying around gems a lot more useful than carrying around cash, but I do recall being able to buy and sell at shops just fine. I think the last time I tried adventure mode was the last pre-Steam release, too.
Interesting, could’ve sworn there was a bug whereby adventure-mode tavern keepers wouldn’t accept coins but I can’t seem to find any reference to it in the wiki…
Post by: uioped1 on September 08, 2023, 05:53:06 pm
Is there a particular reason that you can only occupy already occupied locations?
There are a bunch of empty forts around, but I can only attempt to conquer the nearby mountain home.
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 09, 2023, 06:48:43 am
I've been playing around with the civ screen for the first time, and ran across something I wondered about:
Is there a particular reason that you can only occupy already occupied locations?
There are a bunch of empty forts around, but I can only attempt to conquer the nearby mountain home.
I suppose it makes sense that if you could occupy empty provinces, there would be no reason to raze provinces to be empty in the first place, and you could occupy the entire map meaning outcasts and refugees have nowhere to go to resettle or hang out, breaking some of the background game logic. (Also not all sites even if empty belong to civs, so they'd just found new sites leading to site overpopulation depending on your cap)
Its not the most hashed out system since its introduction and i hope the 'villians arc' part 2 can take a look at how it runs to make the whole map strategy game on the side run a lot smoother so your missions are better calculated, informed, and doing actions like razing, artifact retrieval and upcoming plots via the dungeon master can have more of a lasting impact vs the state of the world just undoing your actions relatively quickly.
Also lime-green please for toady.
Hi Tarn! Hope you're doing well.
Do you plan on messing with forgotten beasts' behavior for the villains update pt. 2? It would be cool to have scheming monsters trying to turn your fortress into a cult or something.
Religions can already propogate around any megabeast with a sphere, if they cause enough destruction to be witnessed by the survivors, and some more centricity on [POWER] monsters taking over as leaders of civs (mostly HFS ruling civs under pretenses of being gods) was put back i think before version 40. if i remember correct.
Using some propheteering on a bunch of hostages on the site they're attacking does sound fun though.
Post by: kontako on September 10, 2023, 08:54:12 pm
I was inspecting the images on an artifact my dwarf had created and thought:
Will we see coherent multi-scene images across engravings or other depictions in the myth update, similar to how coherent, story like events will be used to construct a mythology?
I get that systems like this are planned to enter the game eventually. Really, I thought of asking the question as the myth system seemed like it could be multipurpose in that way, although admittedly, I understand very little about how any of these systems would work.
I imagine something like repeated use of particular icons, or after mentioning a list of various independent images a concluding statement that the scene depicts a particular site or event.
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 11, 2023, 04:03:45 pm
I've been playing around with the civ screen for the first time, and ran across something I wondered about:
Is there a particular reason that you can only occupy already occupied locations?
There are a bunch of empty forts around, but I can only attempt to conquer the nearby mountain home.
FTFY.
Post by: ryno on September 11, 2023, 04:07:11 pm
Post by: voliol on September 11, 2023, 04:07:47 pm
I've been playing around with the civ screen for the first time, and ran across something I wondered about:FTFY.
Is there a particular reason that you can only occupy already occupied locations?
There are a bunch of empty forts around, but I can only attempt to conquer the nearby mountain home.
This is just a change in the shade of green, in case someone is curious.
Post by: Toady One on September 13, 2023, 12:38:54 pm
I did make a note about the Fangamer in Europe situation from the last FotF - they are expecting November for that currently.
Post by: clinodev on September 13, 2023, 02:51:56 pm
Post by: Telgin on September 13, 2023, 03:57:43 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on September 13, 2023, 04:57:07 pm
Post by: Bralbaard on September 14, 2023, 12:43:23 am
Post by: brewer bob on September 14, 2023, 12:59:56 am
Post by: Toady One on September 14, 2023, 02:23:44 pm
Quote
Quote from: crazy_old_fishermanAt the risk of adding to a chorus, is there any update on MacOS versions. I've seen written by Putnam that it 'could be' as simple as pressing a button. An experienced developer myself I know this to be at the very least highly optimistic. However I would really love to know that it is too difficult to do rather than untried. May I also softly hint that MacOS users comprise about a third of the market (I could find the source but that would be pedantic even for me) and that as MacOS has switched to ARM64/aarch64 it might be prudent to release a version for the mac and linux users on ARM? I know that I at least have not bought a copy yet as it doesn't run on my personal computer. Perhaps this is true for a significant number of people.Quote from: kipwheelerI'm in the same boat as crazy_old_fisherman. I really want to try this game on my Mac, but I don't want to muck around with wineskin. Any updates on MacOS versions would be much appreciated. Does Putnam have access to a Mac yet to mess around with for that port?
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8493373#msg8493373
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8493385#msg8493385
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8494753#msg8494753
We're continue to follow the original plan, as reflected in the replies here. Linux is nearly done (up on a public Steam beta now, ready to be swapped to the main line once the known issues are settled.) That gets us through a lot of the compiler trouble, but not through the SDL2/FMod/etc/etc potential issues. We'll just have to see where we are at once we have our hardware.
Regarding the soft hint, Mac people are more like 1-5% of Steam sales, depending on the game, since they are around 3% of Steam users, and the pre-Steam DF downloads reflected this as well, so it seems to be the general personal computer situation. Maybe you are counting mobile? In any case, 1% is enough reason to do a port. Did it before, doing it now. It's good when more people are able to play the game, and if they can do so without an emulator. At some point it becomes a compilation/tech/hardware/virtual machine/etc. burden that's hard to overcome, for systems with fewer users, but 3% is a lot, really. Same goes for translation/localization if we can ever figure that out.
Quote from: Silverwing235
@Threetoe: What was/is the intended pronunciation of the diacritics in Dwarven, and the other relevant languages, if possible?
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8493910#msg8493910
Silverwing235 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8493971#msg8493971
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8494037#msg8494037
No, there was never an intended pronunciation from us. Don't even know what kinds of sounds dwarven mouths can make.
Quote from: Bralbaard
Maybe this has been discussed before, but I was wondering what the odds are that saves from the current version will be compatible with the future adventure mode release?
Odds are currently really good ha ha. Something could come up, but it's less likely this time than it was with the fort mode conversion since the base objects of the game shared with adv mode have already been moved over, and I don't have to worry about active adv mode games the way I had to worry about active fort mode games, since there aren't any (in the versions we're compatible with.)
Quote from: Nihilich
You mentioned the color-matching of cave floors to their stone types being distracting, and that got me thinking: what's up with rock layer generation?
I know in earlier versions of DF (40d?) that the rock generation - or at least the metal generation - used to be different. From a geological standpoint, the generation today is quite strange, with giant ovals of different rock stacking over each other like the biggest layer cake on earth, from the circus to the surface. With every map tile, you basically know what you'll always get: a base square of layer stone, a giant oval of a different layer stone in the middle, and zero to several ores zigging through it.
Why is it done this way? Is this rock gen a holdover from the 23a days or such? Any plans to model, like, igneous intrusion, plate tectonics, stratified rocks, with the rock-tiles themselves in-game? Do geologists ever send you letters?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496078#msg8496078
I don't think it was much different before, back in the 2D days. Maybe veins were longer? When I chopped the world up into 48x48 tiles for adv mode seamless movement and better embark selection, stuff had to be contained in those, without a lot of metadata or a more coherent global noise function or etc. This is all solvable but hasn't been a priority, especially now while the map rewrite hangs over everything.
Quote from: Lozzymandias
Is there any plans to tighten up the needs system and make dwarfs a little better at satisfying their own needs if given the opportunity. There are good workarounds for everything but the 5 f's I believe: faith, family, friends, Food and... romance.
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496372#msg8496372
Lozzymandias (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496405#msg8496405
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496418#msg8496418
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496442#msg8496442
Blue_Dwarf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496471#msg8496471
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496574#msg8496574
I'm not sure we'll be doing much with this until we get through adv mode etc. It'll be interesting to see what goes into patches parallel to adv mode dev as the gnarlier issues get fixed. Social issues generally have been an annoying problem for a long while, so it's not entirely off the radar there.
Quote from: Heiz
1. Will new quest system be the only feature we will get for adventure mode or there will be something soon in near future?
2. I heard there will be new starting scenarios one day and i thought that probably pretty big thing to add, so i wanted to ask if it will affect adventure mode as well, except that we will be able to find them in world and interact with npcs there? And will new scanerios be similar to fortress scenario or will it they give new mechanics or change them in any way? Will there be scenarios that you didn't mention or the list that we know is probably all scenarios that we will have?
3. After you add adventue mode will our worlds be able to work with it?
1. We're just trying to get adventure mode together at all now. After that, there are the villains and army stuff and magic and so forth. It's not clear what will be in the initial adventure mode release, from a strict conversion with some bug fixes up to some new features, since it'll depend on how long it takes.
2. Yeah, every start scenario is basically a new way for settlements to interact with the world and their own and other civilizations. I expect that to reverberate through all the corners of the game.
3. If this is a save compatibility question, then that's expected, yeah.
Quote from: sofanthiel
I. Will we see a more fleshed-out and gradual development process with extra intermediate youth stages in the future (i.e., toddlers --> kids --> adolescents --> adults)? It is quite odd for a dwarf to play make-believe with their toy boat one day and be recruited into the army the next.
II. If not, are there plans to alter either time progression or aging speed in order to balance out the fact that it takes 18 whole years for a resident to mature, making it harder to have fort-born babies grow up to adulthood, resulting in multi-generational fortresses being even less feasible now?
I+II. I'd prefer to flesh out the process, sure. I don't expect to change the speed, but it's straightforward to mod the ages to be faster. The first myth pass will probably be when we start poking at the edges of how days/months/years/calendars/moons/suns/etc. are structured, and that would offer some kind of control, but the creature age progression is probably still independent of that and would just need a mod.
Quote from: Orange-of-Cthulhu
About the Steam release of Adv Mode - I wonder if the intention is "just" to do graphics and fix the many UIs, and then release it with pretty much the gameplay of the pre-Steam version - or if the goal is to streamline it some more before release by filling out some the "holes" in the gameplay - such as the impossibility of geting clothes and armor for very large/small animal people?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496954#msg8496954
Orange-of-Cthulhu (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497427#msg8497427
Bralbaard: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497763#msg8497763
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497794#msg8497794
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8498055#msg8498055
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8498793#msg8498793
LuuBluum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8498801#msg8498801
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8498810#msg8498810
It's just not clear at this point. We're aware adv mode is a much rougher and less gamelike creature than fort mode (which is already somewhat rough and somewhat ungamelike), but regardless we're going to have to do the basic conversion, so we're focusing on that. After the initial release, the plans are all heavily adv mode inflected anyway, so it's kind of interchangeable anyway. The competing concerns are getting as timely a release as we can (relatively) and having a release that's a bit more polished in some sense. Same as the fort mode concerns, really, but exacerbated.
Quote from: eerr
Will myth and magic include an achievable source of perpetual longevity? My fortresses in older versions evenually loose 10 dwarves every year to old age. It's kind of heartbreaking. I understand that death is to be accepted in dwarf fortress, but it should not be a third of a fortress for no reason, causing the player to abandon their history.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497365#msg8497365
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497372#msg8497372
I'm not sure what you mean by no reason. Eventually it'll be the whole fort, since people die. In fantasy etc. settings, and tales, etc., perpetual longevity usually comes at a cost, etc. etc., and I expect the myth/magic release will variously grapple with this. The current necromancers being a simple version (and also a solution to your problem, if you get a book in the library, though of course there are all sorts of issues with that.)
Ultimately, if you want longevity as a technical addition to your playstyle, I'd just mod dwarves to be immortal. The in-game stuff we offer later is generally going to be messier I think.
If your question is more pointing to something about how natural deaths are spaced out in a buggy way or something, that's a separate matter. Maybe that would be because of migrant demographics being lumped with the fast waves up to 200? Then there'd be an initial band of death but it would smooth out over time. Like, a long time, a very very old fort.
Quote from: kontako
G'day Tarn. I vaguely seem to recall there being a 'smell' sense in adventure mode, and I was wondering if it applied in fortress mode.
Dogs are mentioned to have ...a keen sense of smell, but they look like they lack the SMELL_TRIGGER token. Is it important?
Are dogs in any way better at spotting sneaky intruders than any other animal? The wiki mentioned that hunting dogs have an improved observer skill, though it didn't seem to find it when I looked.
No there's nothing in fort mode generally for smell. Hunting critters get a 50% increased view range for spotting sneaking people. I'm not sure if it affects things in practice, since the function may have become unrelated. Hunting creatures also sneak when accompanying a hunter, which should help with prey being spooked as they approach. But I'm not sure. Hunting units are very old.
Quote from: Kyo1995
Do you plan on messing with forgotten beasts' behavior for the villains update pt. 2? It would be cool to have scheming monsters trying to turn your fortress into a cult or something.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8499731#msg8499731
There's a lot to do here, but the humanoid villains that can interact with civilization have more levers to pull so they'll continue to be the focus. We did have a whole megabeast AI section as I recall up on dev, at least an outline of sorts. Would still be good to make them properly troublesome in various ways.
Quote from: clinodev
I wonder if you could give us a quick "near term" summary of the things you plan on working on for the next 2 months or so? Not asking for any predictions of what will get done, just a plan like we used to get in the DevLogs of what you'd like to work on!
I'd like to work on adventure mode, mainly! It is overdue. This just involves converting menus one at a time, and finally getting to those travel pictures to start.
The Linux release is on a Steam beta and once that's clear of crashes and major problems, we should have that up everywhere, including here on Classic. This opens the door to Mac work. I imagine we're nearly to the phase where a new Mac computer enters the scene.
We also have a parallel track of interface widgets going on which should help not only with adv mode menus but in getting keyboard support up back in fort land.
We're also working on bugs in parallel. Patches should continue while adventure mode progresses. It's important for me to actually get through adventure mode, so I'm not going to prioritize fort mode balance or features until that's done. But changes/fixes like the ones you see for the 50.10 patch notes (announcements, ammo, rotten food in rooms, stuck in trees, etc.) will continue to be addressed.
As an additional fourth parallel track ha ha, we have some graphics ready that I need to get typed in from my end, and that's ongoing. I'm the bottleneck on this and most everything else, not much to do about that, and when life is rough or strange, as it has been, stuff is slow.
Quote from: uioped1
Is there a particular reason that you can only occupy already occupied locations?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8499731#msg8499731
I think it has to do with the reclaim mechanic, and that sending off the squads to raid or occupy depends on there being civilians for tribute or to be the government etc.
But there's no core reason why you shouldn't be sending off settlers or caravans etc., other than it being some work to implement.
Quote from: kontako
I was inspecting the images on an artifact my dwarf had created and thought:
Will we see coherent multi-scene images across engravings or other depictions in the myth update, similar to how coherent, story like events will be used to construct a mythology?
I get that systems like this are planned to enter the game eventually. Really, I thought of asking the question as the myth system seemed like it could be multipurpose in that way, although admittedly, I understand very little about how any of these systems would work.
I imagine something like repeated use of particular icons, or after mentioning a list of various independent images a concluding statement that the scene depicts a particular site or event.
It's sort of related and sort of not, in its way. The new myths attempt to be coherent, but the current history generation is already coherent, in its vast simulationish way, so we could have been doing multistep stuff already. Were there chapters to in-game biographies... I remember toying with this, picking a few chronological events related to a given subject, anyway. Don't recall if that made it in. But certainly more can be done.
Quote from: ryno
has the team considered the logistics for additional sprite overlays on artifact items, such that more of their materials / adornments are rendered
We had this for a time, for all of the furniture. Had to scrap it with the big scrap, but it's certainly doable - many of the items are already built from layers and get pixel-wise recoloration etc. Spikes and rings and such definitely within grasp. It's a little harder to get them reflected on creature equipment.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on September 14, 2023, 08:20:31 pm
I personally haven’t played DF for months now. The main reasons are that I only have a machine running Linux and I’ve never used Steam before so I’m concerned that, if I were to get the Steam version, I’d have to download and install the Windows version on a machine running MS Windows and get that running before I could either switch to running it under Linux using Wine or switch over to the beta branch and use the native Linux version. Also, I can’t run the older pre-Steam versions because the Linux distribution that I’m on now doesn’t provide libraries for versions of SDL prior to SDL2 (and the maintainers have said that Hell will freeze over before that ever happens…). I’ve tried installing Wine and running the Classic versions, but all that happens is that DF crashes on startup. I’m really looking forward to there being native Linux support on the main branch. Hopefully then I can start playing DF again!
Post by: mikekchar on September 14, 2023, 08:53:17 pm
The Classic version requires that you install an additional DLL (msvcp140_atomic_wait.dll) if you have certain versions of Wine. Someone told me that they got it to work without that DLL using wine 7.x, but I haven't tried it. To be honest, while I got it running, it didn't work properly for me. The latest premium windows one works fine, though. It's a bit tricky to install that DLL, and the Linux beta version works *much* better anyway, so I recommend just expending the effort to get steam working on Linux (it's not that hard).
Post by: elilla on September 15, 2023, 05:35:05 am
Thanks for the replies, sir. I’m sorry for your loss and I hope that you get over your illness.
I personally haven’t played DF for months now. The main reasons are that I only have a machine running Linux and I’ve never used Steam before so I’m concerned that, if I were to get the Steam version, I’d have to download and install the Windows version on a machine running MS Windows and get that running before I could either switch to running it under Linux using Wine or switch over to the beta branch and use the native Linux version. Also, I can’t run the older pre-Steam versions because the Linux distribution that I’m on now doesn’t provide libraries for versions of SDL prior to SDL2 (and the maintainers have said that Hell will freeze over before that ever happens…). I’ve tried installing Wine and running the Classic versions, but all that happens is that DF crashes on startup. I’m really looking forward to there being native Linux support on the main branch. Hopefully then I can start playing DF again!
Like mikekchar said, you can install Steam directly on Linux, switch to the beta channel, then rescue the DF folder from Steam's clutches. For personal/ideological reasons I don't want to have a Steam account, so I'm waiting for the Linux version to be released on itch.io.
Meanwhile I was playing the Windows version from itch, with wine 8.x. It generally works fine, but sadly every so often it crashes—rarely enough that I get to run a fort for 3 or 4 years and then suddenly I lose a season's worth of work. That happened with both wine 8.0 (current stable) and 8.15 (stage), so I gave it a rest for now.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on September 15, 2023, 06:55:17 am
For personal/ideological reasons I don't want to have a Steam account, so I'm waiting for the Linux version to be released on itch.io.
As a person who hasn’t used Steam before and therefore isn’t really familiar with them, I’ve got to ask: why, specifically, would I not want to use Steam?
Post by: elilla on September 15, 2023, 07:30:45 am
For personal/ideological reasons I don't want to have a Steam account, so I'm waiting for the Linux version to be released on itch.io.
As a person who hasn’t used Steam before and therefore isn’t really familiar with them, I’ve got to ask: why, specifically, would I not want to use Steam?
You? I don't know. I have no idea what are your values and practices regarding choosing a service. As I mentioned before my reasons are individual and political, and I cannot talk about it without derailing the thread into a rant, so I'll put it under a spoiler tag. If you want to discuss the topic please DM me rather than expanding on the thread (though to be honest I don't want to discuss it either.)
Spoiler: rant (click to show/hide)
Post by: sofanthiel on September 15, 2023, 12:39:21 pm
why, specifically, would I not want to use Steam?
Developers get a larger cut of the money on Itch (90%) rather than Steam (70%), so it's better in terms of supporting Toady and the team!
Post by: clinodev on September 15, 2023, 03:42:08 pm
The game was a fantastic success on Steam, but it's not likely to be a top 5 game showing up on the front page until some future super update, so an itch.io purchase is probably objectively better at this point in time for everyone.
An itch.io purchase also includes a Steam key, providing access to the betas and the Steam Workshop
Post by: Listyg on September 17, 2023, 04:12:18 am
Post by: mikekchar on September 18, 2023, 03:54:06 am
The other thing to consider is that even with an itch.io purchase, it's likely that activating the Steam key results in Steam getting a small amount of money (likely in the $5 range if my information is correct). So if you want to avoid giving money to Steam, then best to stay away from it. On the other hand, Tarn has chosen Steam as his platform of choice for betas. So... I feel like it's a matter of deciding if you want to participate in the betas or not, knowing that some small amount of money will go to Steam. For me, I felt the best value was to participate (not that I've found *anything* on the beta.. It's been rock solid Ha ha ha)
Post by: clinodev on September 18, 2023, 01:32:05 pm
The other thing to consider is that even with an itch.io purchase, it's likely that activating the Steam key results in Steam getting a small amount of money (likely in the $5 range if my information is correct). So if you want to avoid giving money to Steam, then best to stay away from it.
Moral issues aside, developers don't pay for Steam keys, they're provided for free (as a means of maintaining customer lock-in).
They don't even ask questions until after you've requested 5000 keys, and it's perfectly fine for the developer to sell them (https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/keys).
Post by: Kyo1995 on September 20, 2023, 11:07:02 am
Will the army update include formation movements for militia/soldiers? Do you plan on generalizing such a feature to include more group behavior, e.g. families hanging out together, friends going in groups to the tavern etc?
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 20, 2023, 04:26:31 pm
Hello, Tarn! Glad to see you're doing well.
Will the army update include formation movements for militia/soldiers? Do you plan on generalizing such a feature to include more group behavior, e.g. families hanging out together, friends going in groups to the tavern etc?
Questions that border on suggestions tend to fare poorly in the "nope didn't think about it" scale without being carefully worded, but there are a few things listed out on the army arc on the bay12 site already, as well as what you can infer from past FotF replies and press events.
Specifically, i would point you to the "Pre-Magic Improvement Candidates (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html)", as these are the nearest term things outside of what's immediately needing attention of the adventurer mode, continuing the spriting work (into things like missing artifact sprites and other edge case things, with baby-sprites and some ramps being recently finished), and other loose ends with the helpful oversight of Putnam.
Post by: SamBucher on September 21, 2023, 05:22:53 am
Post by: Thisfox on September 24, 2023, 08:28:40 pm
Post by: Silverwing235 on September 27, 2023, 07:06:33 am
Post by: malarkor on September 29, 2023, 02:53:58 am
is releasing the source code of 0.47.* some day a possibility to preserve the history of DF and all the community art work, mods and add-ons made for it? Specifically this could live on as an Bay12 "overseen" community project, that aims at fixing at least some bugs and performance issues as well as maintaining modern systems compatibility.
A somewhat restrictive license could protect the current day economics of DF.
Thank you for this game and kind regards.
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 29, 2023, 03:58:12 am
Hi there,
is releasing the source code of 0.47.* some day a possibility to preserve the history of DF and all the community art work, mods and add-ons made for it?
A somewhat restrictive license could protect the current day economics of DF.
Thank you for this game and kind regards.
For all foreseeable plans i imagine Toady could have, the DFFD still exists as does hosting every version new and old on the website, as well as the. ver.50 and 47. are only as detached as the code and summary changes required to get the steam version in its present state. There are other DFlike titles that have been achieved without DF source code, such as Rimworld, 'Gnomoria' and 'Towns' (a blast from the past on those last two)
About the DFFD mod/save/asset hosting site specifically and its database, things happened and many files were orphaned and profiles gone (including my own). Its not possible to completely secure a 100% of publically accessible content all of the time without human error, and having the source code or not wouldn't really cover all bases, as there have been technical issues too in Tarn and Zach's efforts to develop the game on more than one occasion.
Lime green for questions please.
Post by: malarkor on September 29, 2023, 02:05:24 pm
Hi there,
is releasing the source code of 0.47.* some day a possibility to preserve the history of DF and all the community art work, mods and add-ons made for it?
A somewhat restrictive license could protect the current day economics of DF.
Thank you for this game and kind regards.
For all foreseeable plans i imagine Toady could have, the DFFD still exists as does hosting every version new and old on the website, as well as the. ver.50 and 47. are only as detached as the code and summary changes required to get the steam version in its present state. There are other DFlike titles that have been achieved without DF source code, such as Rimworld, 'Gnomoria' and 'Towns' (a blast from the past on those last two)
About the DFFD mod/save/asset hosting site specifically and its database, things happened and many files were orphaned and profiles gone (including my own). Its not possible to completely secure a 100% of publically accessible content all of the time without human error, and having the source code or not wouldn't really cover all bases, as there have been technical issues too in Tarn and Zach's efforts to develop the game on more than one occasion.
Lime green for questions please.
Thank you for the answer. I edited my question to be more precise.
Post by: BlackAion on October 01, 2023, 01:24:08 pm
Sure, but I don't think it overcomes the core problem. Things plopped in infinite wildernesses aren't related to each other, without a lot of extra effort, and are never going to have the same richness of history in their spaces.
With the new introduction of A.I. would it be possible to implement an A.I. into the program which would help these things relate to each other?
Post by: LuuBluum on October 01, 2023, 04:52:30 pm
Not particularly, no.Sure, but I don't think it overcomes the core problem. Things plopped in infinite wildernesses aren't related to each other, without a lot of extra effort, and are never going to have the same richness of history in their spaces.
With the new introduction of A.I. would it be possible to implement an A.I. into the program which would help these things relate to each other?
Post by: BlackAion on October 01, 2023, 09:15:42 pm
Not particularly, no.Sure, but I don't think it overcomes the core problem. Things plopped in infinite wildernesses aren't related to each other, without a lot of extra effort, and are never going to have the same richness of history in their spaces.
With the new introduction of A.I. would it be possible to implement an A.I. into the program which would help these things relate to each other?
I see. What exactly needs to be done to actually provide that same richness of history? Knowing that I can figure out what exactly am I asking for and how much work it would entail.
Post by: LuuBluum on October 01, 2023, 11:11:43 pm
Post by: BlackAion on October 02, 2023, 05:11:33 pm
Problem isn't the detail, it's the "why". Why do these people worship this particular thing? Why does the magic work this way? You can generate neat textual descriptions through AI if you want so that it just makes up random stuff, but it'd be completely disconnected from any other system of the game. What good is a mechanism to plop down neat textual descriptions of civilizations if it can't also churn out a history of them and their relation to the rest of the world?
I see. Would it be possible to manually create a number of keywords and then use the A.I. to form an historical narrative based off the keywords and based off the already existing world generating information? That way it could theoretically create a history for random stuff placed in an arbitrarily infinite expanse that wont contradict anything taking place in the rest of the world.
Post by: LuuBluum on October 02, 2023, 05:36:10 pm
No, because those narratives would need to intersect with an arbitrary number of other narratives. You need each narrative to be aware of each other narrative at the outset.Problem isn't the detail, it's the "why". Why do these people worship this particular thing? Why does the magic work this way? You can generate neat textual descriptions through AI if you want so that it just makes up random stuff, but it'd be completely disconnected from any other system of the game. What good is a mechanism to plop down neat textual descriptions of civilizations if it can't also churn out a history of them and their relation to the rest of the world?
I see. Would it be possible to manually create a number of keywords and then use the A.I. to form an historical narrative based off the keywords and based off the already existing world generating information? That way it could theoretically create a history for random stuff placed in an arbitrarily infinite expanse that wont contradict anything taking place in the rest of the world.
The other issue, of course, is that this then needs to actually be tied into game systems. Which is generally quite awful to do from textual descriptions. This is why the game goes the other way around; it generates the text from the data. In short, the game would already need to have generated the history and all the useful bits of nuance before you could use an AI to generate what would be effectively superfluous "fluff text" as a description. Then hope it doesn't manage to contradict anything, or add new information that it shouldn't.
Post by: Toady One on October 02, 2023, 07:45:44 pm
Quote from: Listyg
Any chance we will get to see other export options back in the steam game anytime soon? Like the option to export historical figures or terrain info. Currently we can only export main xml file but that's only like, only a part of everything. A lot of people are still waiting for full functionality as it was in the pre-steam version.
Yeah, it's not as far away now. Just need some buttons pretty much. The code is all still sitting there, and I think the image export still works though it might need to be updated.
Quote from: Kyo1995
Will the army update include formation movements for militia/soldiers? Do you plan on generalizing such a feature to include more group behavior, e.g. families hanging out together, friends going in groups to the tavern etc?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8502087#msg8502087
Formations and friend groups wouldn't be strongly related if I did either one. Formation stuff is on the table generally for the army update.
Quote from: SamBucher
What's the current status on bringing back square tilesets to the ASCII graphics mode, or other tileset resolutions beyond the standard vertical rectangle?
This is a little messier than bringing back legends export, since there are various menus and tiles that need to be refit, and there's also the conflict between the play area and the interface area tiles (32x32 vs. 8x12) that gets a little strange when either changes, since play textures will bleed through when the proportions change. But fundamentally that should be down to a few targeted changes, and I marked the spots in the code where it comes up, or tried to anyway, since we're planning to get this handled.
Quote from: Silverwing235
Hopefully the "gnarliness" to be fixed in adv mode includes experiments and other procgen things having semi-blank appearance data and other shenanigans in chargen, right? Also not intended, I guess, was being bounced back to 'choose your character' as though everything else were covered in gum and superglue, when all you wanted was, say, a change of the character's civilization?
I'm not sure what the priorities will be here. All animal people have essentially bland appearances as well and are played more than experiments. The reason it has to kick you back to the beginning if you change your civilization is that all materials and items and skills could be different, unless you are talking about something else.
Quote from: malarkor
is releasing the source code of 0.47.* some day a possibility to preserve the history of DF and all the community art work, mods and add-ons made for it? Specifically this could live on as an Bay12 "overseen" community project, that aims at fixing at least some bugs and performance issues as well as maintaining modern systems compatibility.
A somewhat restrictive license could protect the current day economics of DF.
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8503736#msg8503736
malarkor (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8503838#msg8503838
There are no plans for a full source release, same as ever. We're still considering other options (e.g. worldgen), but I don't think they'd address your concerns.
Quote from: BlackAion
Quote from: Toady OneSure, but I don't think it overcomes the core problem. Things plopped in infinite wildernesses aren't related to each other, without a lot of extra effort, and are never going to have the same richness of history in their spaces.
With the new introduction of A.I. would it be possible to implement an A.I. into the program which would help these things relate to each other?
LuuBluum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8504224#msg8504224
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8504259#msg8504259
LuuBluum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8504273#msg8504273
BlackAion (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8504455#msg8504455
LuuBluum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8504458#msg8504458
Don't have anything to add to this. Making an AI that can form the necessary systemic links would be amazing, and it's beyond my ability or the ability of any current system I'm aware of.
Post by: BlackAion on October 03, 2023, 03:44:30 pm
Post by: LuuBluum on October 03, 2023, 05:01:03 pm
Post by: BlackAion on October 03, 2023, 05:33:27 pm
To be honest a truly infinite world with infinite numbers of relevant entities with elaborate, comingling histories would probably not be that fun to actually interact with. Too many things to keep up with; at one point you'd just end up overwhelmed.
I dont see it that way. Larger worlds also means more adventures, always new sights on the horizon, and new and incredibly diverse species of all sizes. In an infinite world it is entirely plausible to have a giant world tree and a skyworld all in one game. It would probably be hell to actually build a dwarf fortress in but isnt this game all about having "fun" anyway?
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 03, 2023, 05:49:38 pm
Post by: BlackAion on October 04, 2023, 01:02:36 pm
To the extent there are 'planes' as in 'planar realms' on the roadmap, I think there's plenty of opportunity to reach outside the world zone or create lasting impacts like you can do by whittling monsters down until you reach mundanity, or on the more extreme magical/antimagical side of things either release or entrap and banish magic from the world in a lasting impact for future forts, but its probably going to be a finite thing for a long while.
And thats fine honestly. I would be satisfied with simply worlds that are finite but still bigger than Earth in some way. HunterXHunter and Toriko has convinced me that that larger worlds are far more interesting than smaller ones, if only because the life forms therein are interesting. And thats not even getting into the magical side of things. It would be far more likely for such worlds to maintain or even regress back to an Age of Myths. Especially whenever the Magic Update finally gets started.
Post by: falcc on October 04, 2023, 06:53:05 pm
1) Since getting a look at someone based on their clothing and description is coming up before the villains release, is there any chance of wanted posters with the last known description of famous villains rendered on them in a similar style?
2) Will someone with face obscuring garb still have their eyes/nose/scars/blue skin/full suite of intellectual values/etc visible at a glance in their description in adventure mode once villains are finished? Or fort mode for that matter?
3) Have you ever played Shadows of Doubt, the proc gen detective game?
Turbans and different kinds of head clothes are some of the clothing I'm most excited to see rendered in DF. Dwarves also seem to love wearing them, nearly as much as underwear.
4) Will dwarven civilizations ever have a chance to be generated with different styles of clothes like human cultures are?
Post by: mikekchar on October 04, 2023, 10:13:01 pm
Post by: voliol on October 07, 2023, 04:53:52 am
Post by: Koteevich on October 08, 2023, 05:55:12 am
Quote
Toady One: "Same goes for translation/localization if we can ever figure that out."
Why don't you make a toolkit for translators? By the way, translations for the game already exist, for example, into Russian (DFRus community). But the translation is just terrible, huge chunks of the game have not been translated, or translated poorly. Also exists problem with game`s code. At the same time, one of the obvious problems is that when a new version of the game is released, for example, 50.11 translation for the previous version does not work. It needs to be additionally adapted a little for new versions. Yes, it's fast, but it's inconvenient to bother with it every time.
also understand that even translating into 6-7 languages will take both a lot of money and a lot of time, besides, Adventure Mode and Steam achievements are now your priority. In general, if there were normal tools, the translations would be done by fans. From a practical point of view, it is also convenient that later this translation could be officially implemented into the game (and why not?). It seems to do so, for example, with Cataclysm: DDA. Of course, the games are different in terms of text volume, but that game, it seems to me, despite the fact that it is less popular in general, has a translation into 17 languages! https://docs.cataclysmdda.org/TRANSLATING.html (https://docs.cataclysmdda.org/TRANSLATING.html)
I think, with a convenient toolkit, I would do the translation myself
I would really like to know how difficult it is to bring this to life. Thanks!
Post by: MalroktheIII on October 08, 2023, 04:45:39 pm
So, we know that spheres will influence world gen significantly more by that point, but how will spheres like 'Revenge' or 'Rumors' or 'Lust' or 'Fame' work in that regard? They don't seem all that geography-y to me, at least without another sphere to ground it.
and, for that matter -
What of the combinations? Let us say I have a God of Fame, Rumors, Trees, and The Rain. Two of these (trees and the rain) seem to be the core of our theoretical godly biome, but how would the others effect it?
Similarly, currently, we get things like necromancers and demons corrupting the land using their spheres as the baseline, and I understand that with future worldgen (and magic), we will likely have various wizards and gods being able to do that with any sphere, but -
What if we had a area that was already tainted or blessed by someone else? How would a blessing and a curse placed upon a land interact? (or two blessings... or two curses?)
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 09, 2023, 02:16:30 am
I'm guessing, of course, but:
- Some spheres probably won't have any terrain effects as such. Instead, things like Revenge would firstly manifest through worshiper doctrine, and possibly secondly as a skew in the propensity for creatures within the sphere's influence to select that course of action, although that could be tricky to implement.
- In the combination case, the above could apply, i.e. worshipers in particular would seek fame in its many forms and engage in rumor mongering (which might assist in the fame creation process in this particular combination). Non worshipers within the influence ought to be skewed towards fame seeking and might have a higher probability of sharing rumors (or a lower trust threshold for it).
- Intersecting spheres would probably overlap as the default, and clash when conflicting. Thus, you might be blessed with luck while cursed with a shortened life span, or many crops might die due to a blight, but the ones that don't might be bountiful due to a blessing of bounty. When spheres clash the end result would likely be an average of their respective power in the area, possibly with a random factor. Obviously, implementing all variants (or, rather, a system that generates effect combinations) will probably be tricky, not fully thought out yet, and probably run into snags that will force things to change.
Post by: Silverwing235 on October 09, 2023, 07:30:18 am
QuoteToady One: "Same goes for translation/localization if we can ever figure that out."
Why don't you make a toolkit for translators? By the way, translations for the game already exist, for example, into Russian (DFRus community). But the translation is just terrible, huge chunks of the game have not been translated, or translated poorly. Also exists problem with game`s code. At the same time, one of the obvious problems is that when a new version of the game is released, for example, 50.11 translation for the previous version does not work. It needs to be additionally adapted a little for new versions. Yes, it's fast, but it's inconvenient to bother with it every time.
also understand that even translating into 6-7 languages will take both a lot of money and a lot of time, besides, Adventure Mode and Steam achievements are now your priority. In general, if there were normal tools, the translations would be done by fans. From a practical point of view, it is also convenient that later this translation could be officially implemented into the game (and why not?). It seems to do so, for example, with Cataclysm: DDA. Of course, the games are different in terms of text volume, but that game, it seems to me, despite the fact that it is less popular in general, has a translation into 17 languages! https://docs.cataclysmdda.org/TRANSLATING.html (https://docs.cataclysmdda.org/TRANSLATING.html)
I think, with a convenient toolkit, I would do the translation myself
I would really like to know how difficult it is to bring this to life. Thanks!
Not sure what part of that is meant to be directed at Toady, but around here, we change the colours of whatever sentence or paragraph, using the dropdown list if we have to, to lime green to facilitate it, thanks very much.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 09, 2023, 05:40:38 pm
Post by: delphonso on October 09, 2023, 06:31:51 pm
Likewise, would it be possible to make custom labor details something similar that could be moved between forts/worlds/installs, etc?
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 10, 2023, 03:03:37 am
How much procedural construction of paragraphs does Cataclysm DDA actually do? Is there anything akin to the musical form constructions? Or even the artifacts? Let alone Mythgen...
Cataclysm DDA doesn't do any procedural text generation beyond parameter insertion. There's probably support for massaging the translated text to transform things properly, but that's a concern for translators only, not coders, which is a sensible division of labor, although there are sometimes (rather sensible) requests from translators to modify things a little to allow texts to be translated properly.
Code wise you enclose all (non debug) text in a special wrapper that then (I believe) results in the generation of files with text snippets to translate and some comparison then filters out the ones that are new/changed for translators to chew on. Thus, it's easy for coders to add text: follow the established rules and translators will have to process the results (and draconic automated code checking will reject your code if you don't follow each and every rules precisely to the character, including formatting).
For JSON data (very roughly corresponding to RAWs) you just use English text, and I assume that then gets handed to translators in a manner similar to how text in the code is provided based on data tag parsing that known whether a string is a UI string or an identifier.
Can it be done for DF? Probably. Would it be easy? Probably not. At best it would be a huge amount of sheer work, and at worse (but probably not worst) it would require a restructuring of everything text related to export the information in a format that provides enough context to be worked with (does the single word "die" from a list of words refer to the things you roll or the end of existence, for instance).
Post by: Koteevich on October 10, 2023, 04:38:39 pm
Not sure what part of that is meant to be directed at Toady, but around here, we change the colours of whatever sentence or paragraph, using the dropdown list if we have to, to lime green to facilitate it, thanks very much.
Did I understand correctly that if I want to address something directly to ToadyOne, then I should highlight my text in lime green? It's just that I'm new to the forum and haven't really sat on it before, I'll be glad of any such information. Thanks!
Post by: Putnam on October 10, 2023, 04:45:48 pm
QuoteToady One: "Same goes for translation/localization if we can ever figure that out."
Why don't you make a toolkit for translators?
This is precisely what is meant here by "if we ever figure that out", unfortunately. Making the toolkit's the hard part.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 10, 2023, 11:32:44 pm
That's correct (only applies to this monthly Q&A thread - but chances are he won't see anything posted anywhere else except in the suggestions forum.).Not sure what part of that is meant to be directed at Toady, but around here, we change the colours of whatever sentence or paragraph, using the dropdown list if we have to, to lime green to facilitate it, thanks very much.
Did I understand correctly that if I want to address something directly to ToadyOne, then I should highlight my text in lime green? It's just that I'm new to the forum and haven't really sat on it before, I'll be glad of any such information. Thanks!
Post by: mikekchar on October 11, 2023, 10:03:04 pm
To make a game that can be translated, you have to build it with that in mind from the beginning. It's probably not impossible to change DF so that it can be translated, but it's probably as big a job as the last UX overhaul (just my guess... I really don't know).
You can already change raws to different languages (as long as you don't need glyphs that aren't in the character encoding and font). Then at least all the items in the game will be translated. There isn't *that* much English outside of that, so I think a better approach would be to create a website like the DF wiki that translates all the typical text you will see. Then people can play the game and look up translations for things they don't know. Not ideal, but it will allow them to play the game with some practice.
Post by: Putnam on October 12, 2023, 09:24:56 pm
Post by: DPh Kraken on October 13, 2023, 02:25:55 pm
Post by: Kyo1995 on October 18, 2023, 07:31:30 pm
How do you feel with the end of UI work finally on the horizon? Do you plan on taking a well-deserved vacation after it's done?
Post by: Buttery_Mess on October 23, 2023, 08:45:06 am
A lot of people don't realise that stuff doesn't always 'exist' in procedurally generated worlds until the user looks at it, to create the illusion of permanancy. But, how much is 'permanent' in DF (at least geographically) and how much is generated on demand? If you know what I mean. Will this change with the rewrite? It's my understanding that world Gen will receive more procedural layers (tectonics, layer folding, falling god corpses etc.) and also allow for more dynamic features (icebergs, floating island etc.)
Will it not be difficult to stitch existing systems that interact with geography into the new map system? For example, plopping cities onto terrain? Or have you thought of that?
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 23, 2023, 11:26:40 am
One significant change in the map rewrite is that currently the complete geography of a terrain is generated when needed, i.e. all Z levels all the way down, whereas one goal of it is to generate Z levels when needed, rather than every time an adventurer sets foot on the top of that terrain, when only the surface is actually needed.
Post by: Lexyvil on October 23, 2023, 06:37:01 pm
In terms of the game's atmosphere, I remember reading somewhere that the effect of waves on the oceans are still in the works for the new graphics. From that, I'm curious: Are there plans to display bloodstains on walls as well? It's a really cool detail in the ASCII mode that I hope eventually makes it to the new graphics, among any other graphical features that may still be missing.
Post by: Putnam on October 27, 2023, 06:38:35 pm
Hello, Tarn! Hope you're doing well.
How do you feel with the end of UI work finally on the horizon? Do you plan on taking a well-deserved vacation after it's done?
The end of UI work is still far in the distance, for me. Just today I finally got the unit list reworks compiling again, haha. And soon... perhaps. They will even display correctly. And then I can add searching to them. Woo!
Post by: Beag on October 29, 2023, 07:22:18 pm
2. Will the advanced attack menu still be in the steam version of adventure mode? If the players figure out how to use it, they gain a much tighter control over how their character fights in past versions of adventure mode.
Post by: Eric Blank on October 30, 2023, 06:45:49 pm
Has that issue with invisible critters being un-findable and un-targetable been tackled? If it is solved, how do you intend to implement the hide interaction in the future? Invisibility until close range, dependent on observation, or a few ticks in ambush/sneak mode with positive rolls?
Post by: pettyrelic on October 31, 2023, 03:19:44 am
Question: Do you think DF will see a law-making feature? I imagine it would make for an interesting gameplay element to stray from your original civilization culture (for better or worse) and deal with the consequences. Maybe the lawmaking branch (Baron etc.) could get ousted for making unpopular laws like rationing or banning science.
I think it would add another layer of player agency to the system, and make for interesting gameplay scenarios.
"I am your outpost liaison. I see you've legalized cannibalism."
Post by: Toady One on November 01, 2023, 11:32:26 pm
Quote from: falcc
Thanks for the answers as always Toady. And thanks for the update. Those faces look incredible, even if they're still just prototypes. I also love the icon that is the singing turtle person. Hopefully that makes it to release.
1) Since getting a look at someone based on their clothing and description is coming up before the villains release, is there any chance of wanted posters with the last known description of famous villains rendered on them in a similar style?
2) Will someone with face obscuring garb still have their eyes/nose/scars/blue skin/full suite of intellectual values/etc visible at a glance in their description in adventure mode once villains are finished? Or fort mode for that matter?
3) Have you ever played Shadows of Doubt, the proc gen detective game?
Turbans and different kinds of head clothes are some of the clothing I'm most excited to see rendered in DF. Dwarves also seem to love wearing them, nearly as much as underwear.
4) Will dwarven civilizations ever have a chance to be generated with different styles of clothes like human cultures are?
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8504934#msg8504934
1) We wanted to incorporate appearance into the visual character info people store in their heads, but have not done so since we need to pare it down to a usable size. Cloaks, masks and tattoos and etc. have been discussed in the context of the villains stuff. I'm not sure where it'll go beyond witness reports and identification generally.
2) We're hoping for masks and cloaks etc. to matter at some point, in the contexts where they would be most important. I'm not sure about general UI stuff - you can already read dwarf minds so a certain about of extra information is always going to be available, but we also try to avoid giving away things like vampires too easily, so it's reasonable to hide stuff depending on the context.
3) Zach did for a bit. I think he had fun with it. Seems cool.
4) They probably should. We reduced down the list in the raws to keep things simple, but they don't need to be simple probably.
Quote from: voliol
Does the latest devlog mean we're getting palettized forgotten beasts, and other procgen creatures, next update?
It doesn't, not immediately. We want to think a little more about that, but we're very likely heading that way. Our main case which I just need to do the raws for is the equipment, clothing, hair, bodies of the main civilized creatures. I've already got it working for the portraits so it's just a matter of a lot of raw text, and of course whenever you look at that giant layer creature txt file for the dwarves etc. it really does become time to probably make it shorter somehow, rather than adding palette cases all over. We'll see where that goes.
Quote from: Koteevich
Why don't you make a toolkit for translators?
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8505866#msg8505866
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8505938#msg8505938
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8506031#msg8506031
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8506323#msg8506323
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8506574#msg8506574
Yeah, agreeing with the general vibe of the responses. It's just a hard problem, but we're also interested in figuring it out. It's not simple to set up a format for something like legends mode, appearance paragraphs, etc etc, and to get translated elements to fit on the screen, as people mention. But it's also not an impossible problem. But a lot of work.
Quote from: MalroktheIII
So, we know that spheres will influence world gen significantly more by that point, but how will spheres like 'Revenge' or 'Rumors' or 'Lust' or 'Fame' work in that regard? They don't seem all that geography-y to me, at least without another sphere to ground it.
and, for that matter -
What of the combinations? Let us say I have a God of Fame, Rumors, Trees, and The Rain. Two of these (trees and the rain) seem to be the core of our theoretical godly biome, but how would the others effect it?
Similarly, currently, we get things like necromancers and demons corrupting the land using their spheres as the baseline, and I understand that with future worldgen (and magic), we will likely have various wizards and gods being able to do that with any sphere, but -
What if we had a area that was already tainted or blessed by someone else? How would a blessing and a curse placed upon a land interact? (or two blessings... or two curses?)
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8505700#msg8505700
Yeah, agree with the response here that mainly we haven't thought through specific examples for every sphere. I don't think it needs to be limited to worshipper behavior, or even influencing intelligent creatures, but those are the most straightforward cases to work with. We're certainly not going to have comprehensive coverage on our first pass, since some of the effects would likely take a bit of time to implement and we'll need to push through it and not do some.
All the same, the most simple way to do multiple spheres/combos is to just add multiple traits. It's better when they can relate to each other in some more interesting way, but the sim does a form of that on its own at least. Certain locations can also emphasize one sphere over others, depending on how the myth worked - the handy thing about mythgen will be giving us some extra context to use here. A deity might have a sphere for a reason unrelated to its relationship to the land or creation.
In the most simple cases, conflicts are additive or last-in/first-in wins, but depending on what's causing the change, it could be more interesting than that, with whatever cosmic friction going on that could lead to something else entirely, but it's just gonna be a matter of what we get to. The first concern is just getting something basic in, and then having the most simple change mechanic we can, since we wanted things to be changeable.
Quote from: delphonso
Within the overhaul of the Adventurer character creator, will we be seeing embark profiles like in fortress mode?
Likewise, would it be possible to make custom labor details something similar that could be moved between forts/worlds/installs, etc?
It'd make sense to have those since it's a time consuming process to pull together a character, though you run into the same trouble of not having the same items available every time, and it might be worse here depending on how the clothing is stored/handled.
Definitely appreciate the desire to be able to import labor details (and work orders etc.), there's a lot of redundant work when you've played several forts. We're generally going to keep the fort updates coming (better archers still #1 if I recall), and we'll be addressing stuff/feedback as we go.
Quote from: DPh Kraken
How were the statistics for the weapons determined? I can figure out how weights would be calculated, but I don't know what sort of formulas or educated guesses were used for the attack types.
There weren't any formal calculations or anything. I think the community has produced better numbers as of a long while ago. As with the economy, combat basics are something we haven't looped back around to yet despite it being a long while. I'm not sure which direction we'll be coming from.
Quote from: Kyo1995
How do you feel with the end of UI work finally on the horizon? Do you plan on taking a well-deserved vacation after it's done?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8509408#msg8509408
Ha ha, it really doesn't feel that way with so much adventure mode left to do. And I'm not sure there'll be a special vacation. I think it will be nice to arrive at the first graphical adventure mode release though. That will be nice.
Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Do you have a good idea of what and how to implement the map rewrite, or are you going to make it up as you go when you get to it? By this, I mean the mathematical systems for generating geographical features, procedurally modifying them, storing data and recalling information. Have you got the math ready to implement, or are you expecting a protracted period of creative experimentation?
A lot of people don't realise that stuff doesn't always 'exist' in procedurally generated worlds until the user looks at it, to create the illusion of permanancy. But, how much is 'permanent' in DF (at least geographically) and how much is generated on demand? If you know what I mean. Will this change with the rewrite? It's my understanding that world Gen will receive more procedural layers (tectonics, layer folding, falling god corpses etc.) and also allow for more dynamic features (icebergs, floating island etc.)
Will it not be difficult to stitch existing systems that interact with geography into the new map system? For example, plopping cities onto terrain? Or have you thought of that?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8508692#msg8508692
We're at an in-between state, as usual. I have a long list of things that I need the maps to do, and I've thought about each of them, down to data structures in some cases and not in others. The open question we're trying to tackle now is just how much we can avoid a big wait entirely or can we maintain save compatibility, since it seems vaguely possible. The only part that I think is unavoidably long now is the multi-camera setup, and maybe there's still some way to get that work to go a little faster. Most other parts of the myth/magic rewrite can be done in pieces without one big push, though of course there are reasons to think about things that way sometimes.
But yeah, we've always relied on a multitiered system of permanence, which has worked very well for us. The basic structure of this is "the world" (permanent) -> "midlevel maps" -> "play area", and lots of helper structures at those levels ("site" -> "site realization" -> "site tiles" etc.). I've thought about which new top/mid/low level structures will help us accomplish our goals. Ultimately if we can get away from the block columns (replacing them with stuff with tops and bottoms, as PatrikLundell mentioned), I don't think the lower level play area needs to change a lot for the map rewrite, which is good news because that's where most of the time would go. Then we can start connecting up all sorts of weird higher level structures on a judicious basis, and bring in some extra low level data to handle stuff like illusory walls etc (which present a lot of weird problems, but in their own domain, rather than in the "map rewrite" domain.) Getting away from block columns is doable but we need to handle the problem of stuff that falls off the bottom of the map, mainly, whether that's projectiles or water or a living creature or a corpse, and this is not simple (unless we just delete stuff, which isn't satisfying.)
Once you have multiple worlds, worlds don't even need to be permanent, but you lose a lot when you delete one, since you can't just run out a whole world gen every time you need it (unless it is low pop/small/everchanging, in which case you might be able to!)
Right now cities rely a bit on knowledge of elevation and rivers and the world road network etc. when they are laying themselves out, and we'd like to generalize the way this data is stored. But they don't know their precise elevations until pretty late in the process, which should help us out a lot. And ultimately, if the topography gets bendy enough that elevation doesn't mean anything, then we will need to revisit the existing city generator more ha ha. This should be fine, because we can visit that step when we choose. (It isn't even a save compat problem if we're careful about which sites have been visited and where they are in relation to regions that might suddenly become more interesting. Player forts pinning down existing rectangles is a similar problem.)
Quote from: Lexyvil
In terms of the game's atmosphere, I remember reading somewhere that the effect of waves on the oceans are still in the works for the new graphics. From that, I'm curious: Are there plans to display bloodstains on walls as well? It's a really cool detail in the ASCII mode that I hope eventually makes it to the new graphics, among any other graphical features that may still be missing.
Yeah, we'd like to get it all in there. There aren't a ton of pixels to work with on our walls but I'm sure something can be done.
Quote from: Beag
1. Will portraits in the steam version adventure mode get updated to show wounds/scars if the player or a NPC gets a head injury and survives?
2. Will the advanced attack menu still be in the steam version of adventure mode? If the players figure out how to use it, they gain a much tighter control over how their character fights in past versions of adventure mode.
1. Yeah, we already have several drawn, though I don't have a raw format set up yet.
2. Yeah, we aren't taking any of those options away. It's a weird game where you can do two or more simultaneous attacks that you specify with multiple variables, and that's how it will remain. Gotta respect critters with all those arms and all those daggers. And the simple attack options which already exist will also be there.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Has that issue with invisible critters being un-findable and un-targetable been tackled? If it is solved, how do you intend to implement the hide interaction in the future? Invisibility until close range, dependent on observation, or a few ticks in ambush/sneak mode with positive rolls?
It has not, as far as I know! It feels like it depends on the existing combat/observation relationship of the multiple critters involved to get it right. It'll just need to track that, and probably allow wild or studied attacks into (the not actually) open space that can still connect. And there'd be a metagame there of the player trying to guess too, or using info we don't know about, but hopefully something better than a walk command failing or something, though a more verbose form of that is also proper.
Quote from: pettyrelic
Question: Do you think DF will see a law-making feature? I imagine it would make for an interesting gameplay element to stray from your original civilization culture (for better or worse) and deal with the consequences. Maybe the lawmaking branch (Baron etc.) could get ousted for making unpopular laws like rationing or banning science.
Yeah, we've been planning to do this for a long while, with the civ rewrite/embark scenario stuff. That's still the idea. The ability to stray from your civilization (beyond rejecting the barony and murdering any nobles that happen to come by) may come sooner, since the way it works now feels like more and more of a blocker with army/siege stuff on the horizon.
Post by: kaijyuu on November 02, 2023, 12:08:28 am
While my 4x llama tallow roasts are... interesting... it'd be cool to see what recipes the world itself has come up with.
Post by: Bumber on November 02, 2023, 12:55:14 am
Any chance of procgen prepared meals, similar to how procgen instruments are currently implemented?
While my 4x llama tallow roasts are... interesting... it'd be cool to see what recipes the world itself has come up with.
That was planned for taverns but never made it in due to time constraints. So, yeah, but no timeline now.
Post by: FantasticDorf on November 02, 2023, 05:32:56 am
Quote from: delphonsoWithin the overhaul of the Adventurer character creator, will we be seeing embark profiles like in fortress mode?
Likewise, would it be possible to make custom labor details something similar that could be moved between forts/worlds/installs, etc?
It'd make sense to have those since it's a time consuming process to pull together a character, though you run into the same trouble of not having the same items available every time, and it might be worse here depending on how the clothing is stored/handled.
Definitely appreciate the desire to be able to import labor details (and work orders etc.), there's a lot of redundant work when you've played several forts. We're generally going to keep the fort updates coming (better archers still #1 if I recall), and we'll be addressing stuff/feedback as we go.
On this note, within the past week there's been some active mod development to start filling out palletes for some domestic animals (full patternization for cats, dogs, horses etc) so on the user end it could be moving into a more fulfilled place.
Thanks for the replies Toady. :)
Post by: Buttery_Mess on November 02, 2023, 01:15:48 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on November 02, 2023, 10:52:50 pm
Post by: dikbutdagrate on November 08, 2023, 11:54:34 am
Thanks T!
Post by: Inarius on November 09, 2023, 02:48:13 am
How do you keep motivation, working mainly alone, for years and years, on a nearly unique project ?
Post by: ryno on November 12, 2023, 03:33:39 am
Post by: elanto on November 14, 2023, 11:26:00 am
Once this is done I would like to ask you a question:
I know this may sound a little strange, but I would like to know if your idea of an adventure mode will also be focused on people who prefer a more peaceful game mode? By this I mean if, for example, we can focus our objectives on making a farm and living peacefully on it, until the goblins allow us, spending our days fishing to sell the fish in the nearest city. Or, for example, be a merchant seeking his fortune to settle in a big city and have a life of luxury there? Or maybe set up a tavern in a city and work so that others can get drunk?... Will there be a possibility in the future of something like that? Would the ultimate idea of the game be to create a truly living world where we can truly do anything we want?
And another question that may have already been asked before, will it ever be possible in the vanilla game to play with other races in fortress mode?
Thank you very much and greetings.
Post by: Eric Blank on November 14, 2023, 07:51:02 pm
There was talk of the myth and magic update, having a randomness and magicalness modifier in advanced worldgen, whereupon if one or both of these settings is turned up high enough the world will be generated with random, possibly magical species in place of some or all of the vanilla races, including dwarves. So if that gets implemented, either those worlds will have playable procedurally-genned races or be adventure mode only.
Post by: mikekchar on November 15, 2023, 02:50:08 am
we can focus our objectives on making a farm and living peacefully on it, until the goblins allow us, spending our days fishing to sell the fish in the nearest city. Or, for example, be a merchant seeking his fortune to settle in a big city and have a life of luxury there?
Tarn and Zack actually answer this question in the latest interview with Blind https://youtu.be/a77Oj8UQmsw?si=jJ7H7k190pvNBz4f (Sorry I don't have a time index for you). If I remember correctly, he said that it was something he'd like to do, but it won't be for a long time. There *are* things you can do now, though. For example, you can wander the world performing. You can buy and sell stuff (well, barter... although, it's basically impossible to make a profit). You can make bone carvings and trade them. I often play peacefully, but there isn't much fun in staying in one place. Really it's geared for "adventure", whether that adventure is simply traveling around and learning about the world, or fighting stuff. Farm sim stuff, etc are unlikely to be prioritised. You can kind of play that way in Fortress mode, though.
Post by: joostheger on November 15, 2023, 12:53:30 pm
2) Is there any way that an unit holding a site-level position can succeed a civ-level position? It is possible in world-gen, but it seems not to be in fortress-mode.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on November 24, 2023, 03:08:44 pm
-- What kind of buzzing nightmares did you originally have in mind for our dwarves? And are there any plans to have us to experience these horrible nightmares at some point in the future?
Post by: The Lawnmower Man on December 01, 2023, 12:08:44 am
Post by: Eric Blank on December 01, 2023, 09:27:18 pm
Post by: Toady One on December 01, 2023, 09:35:20 pm
Quote from: kaijyuu
Any chance of procgen prepared meals, similar to how procgen instruments are currently implemented?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8510314#msg8510314
Yeah, as Bumber says, we had a whole plan for this, at the same time as procedural tavern dice/board/card type games, but those things got pushed off into the nebulous future.
Quote from: Inarius
How do you keep motivation, working mainly alone, for years and years, on a nearly unique project ?
I think having such a variety of things to work on helps a lot. It'd be harder for me if I were, say, balancing and tightening (or doing UI stuff...) continuously. The resultant lack of focus and refinement also leads to some of the problems with the project most likely, but it's not gonna be perfect. We also used side projects for this purpose - breaks into completely different genres etc. are good.
Quote from: ryno
my brain exploded recently when i discovered there were no above-ground mushrooms in the world of dwarf fortress. how did things end up this way? would the dwarves reign supreme in every version of history with access to such a resource? do you have a favorite real-world mushroom type? Thank you
I recently grew some golden oyster mushrooms from a little kit. That was fun! It is weird that there are no aboveground mushrooms, especially since we ended up adding so many real world crops over time. I'm not sure if I didn't imagine them in gardens rather than purely being foraged? That could be the reason, since I was working on little gardens and plots when the new crops came in.
Quote from: elanto
I know this may sound a little strange, but I would like to know if your idea of an adventure mode will also be focused on people who prefer a more peaceful game mode? By this I mean if, for example, we can focus our objectives on making a farm and living peacefully on it, until the goblins allow us, spending our days fishing to sell the fish in the nearest city. Or, for example, be a merchant seeking his fortune to settle in a big city and have a life of luxury there? Or maybe set up a tavern in a city and work so that others can get drunk?... Will there be a possibility in the future of something like that? Would the ultimate idea of the game be to create a truly living world where we can truly do anything we want?
And another question that may have already been asked before, will it ever be possible in the vanilla game to play with other races in fortress mode?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8512440#msg8512440
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8512478#msg8512478
Yeah, it's really just a matter of work. Every idea you suggested requires not peace but a robust economy, for instance, which is something we've been vaguely aiming at but have failed to attain a few times. Other ideas of peaceful play styles require a more robust social sim. These are things we're interested in. Combat has always been easier, but it's not the only stuff we work on.
I think the reply addressed the other races question - gonna give it a shot with myth magic stuff. The game is geared a bit toward dwarfiness perhaps, and dwarfiness has given us certain leeway narratively, but we're not too too far from having aboveground/etc./etc. stuff working out. You do have a lot less play space that way. Spreading out to a much wider shallower play area, as you'd have in the NPC human villages, is a technical problem.
Quote from: joostheger
1)why canI nobles with some sort of SUCCESSION not be appointed to a position that is a SQUAD-holding? Like baron and monarch that cannot be militia commander?
2) Is there any way that an unit holding a site-level position can succeed a civ-level position? It is possible in world-gen, but it seems not to be in fortress-mode.
1) Is that the specific constraint? I don't remember if there was some annoying thing about squad assignment upon succession, maybe. But the monarch shouldn't be manager either.
2) Hmm, I'm not sure how it picks among all the site position holders? I don't think we have a syntax for that, or code to hold some kind of selection/election among the candidates. Whatever is going on in world-gen is probably glitchy or arbitrary. As usual, we don't support a lot outside of the default cases (and I'm not sure what the world-gen case is here.) This may be particularly true with entity stuff, where various backing code/simulation for situations is necessary.
Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Honey bees do not possess the vermin_micro tag, and consequently do not spawn in swarms. In spite of this, unused sprite graphics remain in the premium raws, which depict swarms of the remote_colony honey bee worker caste.
-- What kind of buzzing nightmares did you originally have in mind for our dwarves? And are there any plans to have us to experience these horrible nightmares at some point in the future?
Ha ha there's no particular plan, but bees do swarm in real life and it seemed prudent to be prepared.
Quote from: The Lawnmower Man
In older versions of the game in adventure mode it was a terrible slowfest near goblin towers. What are you going to do to fix this, will you reduce the maximum population in goblin fortresses?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8514572#msg8514572
We're going to look at it, but I don't want to suggest a solution - I've often been wrong about profiling issues, and Putnam has managed some pretty amazing gains in fort mode already. Ultimately if we have to change the populations, or how they are distributed, we'll have to go there, though that has knock-on effects, like making sieges less frequent etc., so we need to be cautious.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 01, 2023, 10:09:21 pm
How was thanksgiving for you Toady?
Post by: Egan_BW on December 02, 2023, 01:21:58 am
Post by: elanto on December 02, 2023, 03:43:29 am
Other races is a possibility, yeah, but not a priority.
There was talk of the myth and magic update, having a randomness and magicalness modifier in advanced worldgen, whereupon if one or both of these settings is turned up high enough the world will be generated with random, possibly magical species in place of some or all of the vanilla races, including dwarves. So if that gets implemented, either those worlds will have playable procedurally-genned races or be adventure mode only.
Thanks for the answer, I just saw that!
Post by: elanto on December 02, 2023, 03:44:32 am
we can focus our objectives on making a farm and living peacefully on it, until the goblins allow us, spending our days fishing to sell the fish in the nearest city. Or, for example, be a merchant seeking his fortune to settle in a big city and have a life of luxury there?
Tarn and Zack actually answer this question in the latest interview with Blind https://youtu.be/a77Oj8UQmsw?si=jJ7H7k190pvNBz4f (Sorry I don't have a time index for you). If I remember correctly, he said that it was something he'd like to do, but it won't be for a long time. There *are* things you can do now, though. For example, you can wander the world performing. You can buy and sell stuff (well, barter... although, it's basically impossible to make a profit). You can make bone carvings and trade them. I often play peacefully, but there isn't much fun in staying in one place. Really it's geared for "adventure", whether that adventure is simply traveling around and learning about the world, or fighting stuff. Farm sim stuff, etc are unlikely to be prioritised. You can kind of play that way in Fortress mode, though.
Thanks you. I will check that interview!
Post by: elanto on December 02, 2023, 04:25:43 am
Quote from: kaijyuuAny chance of procgen prepared meals, similar to how procgen instruments are currently implemented?
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8510314#msg8510314
Yeah, as Bumber says, we had a whole plan for this, at the same time as procedural tavern dice/board/card type games, but those things got pushed off into the nebulous future.Quote from: InariusHow do you keep motivation, working mainly alone, for years and years, on a nearly unique project ?
I think having such a variety of things to work on helps a lot. It'd be harder for me if I were, say, balancing and tightening (or doing UI stuff...) continuously. The resultant lack of focus and refinement also leads to some of the problems with the project most likely, but it's not gonna be perfect. We also used side projects for this purpose - breaks into completely different genres etc. are good.Quote from: rynomy brain exploded recently when i discovered there were no above-ground mushrooms in the world of dwarf fortress. how did things end up this way? would the dwarves reign supreme in every version of history with access to such a resource? do you have a favorite real-world mushroom type? Thank you
I recently grew some golden oyster mushrooms from a little kit. That was fun! It is weird that there are no aboveground mushrooms, especially since we ended up adding so many real world crops over time. I'm not sure if I didn't imagine them in gardens rather than purely being foraged? That could be the reason, since I was working on little gardens and plots when the new crops came in.Quote from: elantoI know this may sound a little strange, but I would like to know if your idea of an adventure mode will also be focused on people who prefer a more peaceful game mode? By this I mean if, for example, we can focus our objectives on making a farm and living peacefully on it, until the goblins allow us, spending our days fishing to sell the fish in the nearest city. Or, for example, be a merchant seeking his fortune to settle in a big city and have a life of luxury there? Or maybe set up a tavern in a city and work so that others can get drunk?... Will there be a possibility in the future of something like that? Would the ultimate idea of the game be to create a truly living world where we can truly do anything we want?
And another question that may have already been asked before, will it ever be possible in the vanilla game to play with other races in fortress mode?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8512440#msg8512440
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8512478#msg8512478
Yeah, it's really just a matter of work. Every idea you suggested requires not peace but a robust economy, for instance, which is something we've been vaguely aiming at but have failed to attain a few times. Other ideas of peaceful play styles require a more robust social sim. These are things we're interested in. Combat has always been easier, but it's not the only stuff we work on.
I think the reply addressed the other races question - gonna give it a shot with myth magic stuff. The game is geared a bit toward dwarfiness perhaps, and dwarfiness has given us certain leeway narratively, but we're not too too far from having aboveground/etc./etc. stuff working out. You do have a lot less play space that way. Spreading out to a much wider shallower play area, as you'd have in the NPC human villages, is a technical problem.Quote from: joostheger1)why canI nobles with some sort of SUCCESSION not be appointed to a position that is a SQUAD-holding? Like baron and monarch that cannot be militia commander?
2) Is there any way that an unit holding a site-level position can succeed a civ-level position? It is possible in world-gen, but it seems not to be in fortress-mode.
1) Is that the specific constraint? I don't remember if there was some annoying thing about squad assignment upon succession, maybe. But the monarch shouldn't be manager either.
2) Hmm, I'm not sure how it picks among all the site position holders? I don't think we have a syntax for that, or code to hold some kind of selection/election among the candidates. Whatever is going on in world-gen is probably glitchy or arbitrary. As usual, we don't support a lot outside of the default cases (and I'm not sure what the world-gen case is here.) This may be particularly true with entity stuff, where various backing code/simulation for situations is necessary.Quote from: dikbutdagrateHoney bees do not possess the vermin_micro tag, and consequently do not spawn in swarms. In spite of this, unused sprite graphics remain in the premium raws, which depict swarms of the remote_colony honey bee worker caste.
-- What kind of buzzing nightmares did you originally have in mind for our dwarves? And are there any plans to have us to experience these horrible nightmares at some point in the future?
Ha ha there's no particular plan, but bees do swarm in real life and it seemed prudent to be prepared.Quote from: The Lawnmower ManIn older versions of the game in adventure mode it was a terrible slowfest near goblin towers. What are you going to do to fix this, will you reduce the maximum population in goblin fortresses?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8514572#msg8514572
We're going to look at it, but I don't want to suggest a solution - I've often been wrong about profiling issues, and Putnam has managed some pretty amazing gains in fort mode already. Ultimately if we have to change the populations, or how they are distributed, we'll have to go there, though that has knock-on effects, like making sieges less frequent etc., so we need to be cautious.
Thank so much for the answers.
Regards!
Post by: Acearl on December 03, 2023, 03:01:12 pm
But the steam release kinda changed that it seems. Its more like American demographic diversity where every tenth dwarf is of a deeper darker skin tone. I understand why, like culturally or to target a certian audience. But I miss the idea of like a dark or light skinned variety civ of dwarfs, elfs, or humans. It makes more sense that over time all dwarfs that live under ground get lighter skin tones. But to me this took away a bit of that suspecion of disbelief I had enjoying this game before. In terms of fantasy simulation it made sense to me. Same way the rainshadows were calculated behind mountians. Or available civ metals/materials effected the armor/products they produced. A consequence of circumstance.
So my question is, was this ever a feature that civs would intially have similar asestetic genetic traits? Or was this all head cannon created by coinsidences? If so why was it changed?
Thank you for your time.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 03, 2023, 03:31:51 pm
Post by: BlueManedHawk on December 03, 2023, 09:51:01 pm
I have a question that might be considered controversial.
I see not why, but i'd say it's good you asked it anyway.
So my question is, was this ever a feature that civs would intially have similar asestetic genetic traits? Or was this all head cannon created by coinsidences? If so why was it changed? [col.+]
Questions for answering in this thread directed must in limegreen be set.
Post by: Inarius on December 04, 2023, 01:45:01 pm
So my question is, was this ever a feature that civs would intially have similar asestetic genetic traits? Or was this all head cannon created by coinsidences? If so why was it changed?
Acearl : I copy your question, and put it in lime so Toady sees it and can reply.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 04, 2023, 02:08:44 pm
[edit] I just looked at one particular family in one of my forts, both parents happen to have burnt umber skin and all the children do, but eyes and hair arent all the same or related to the parents. The fort as a whole is pretty randomized. Maybe its still working? I'd have to look at a bunch of different families across multiple saves to tell. Doesnt help one of the kids has a different father from a previous marriage.
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 04, 2023, 03:20:13 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on December 04, 2023, 10:51:43 pm
Post by: Acearl on December 06, 2023, 09:04:07 pm
So my question is, was this ever a feature that civs would intially have similar asestetic genetic traits? Or was this all head cannon created by coinsidences? If so why was it changed?
Acearl : I copy your question, and put it in lime so Toady sees it and can reply.
Thank you
Post by: darkhog on December 13, 2023, 04:12:47 pm
Post by: kontako on December 13, 2023, 10:33:44 pm
Will the attire represented in the portraits enable distinction of units based on things like the social standing, culture, etc?
Will weapons / shield also be shown in the portrait?
Do you think that generated mythologies would be as extensive as current world generation history? (i.e, spanning hundreds to thousands of events and characters)
Do ettins have two personalities / souls?
Thanks.
Post by: voliol on December 14, 2023, 02:38:45 am
Will you add graphics raws to the Classic version so implementing custom graphics packs that are compatible both with premium and Classic will be easier? I'm talking about the TXT files in vanilla*_graphics that are present in premium but not in classic, not the art itself.
Is the text in the Premium version not still under a free-to-use license? I thought it was only the image files which were limited (in which case the accompanying .txt files in vanilla*_graphics should be copyable) but might be misremembering.
Post by: darkhog on December 14, 2023, 11:52:26 am
I'm not asking him to distribute the art, because that's against his contract, but at least have graphics RAWs in there so making a compatible graphic pack is as simple as making proper graphics.
//edit: This is what I mean on the example of "data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics" folder which in premium is: https://i.imgur.com/WDn0s6z.png (https://i.imgur.com/WDn0s6z.png)\
And in the classic (winrar screenshot because I can't be bothered to unpack classic): https://i.imgur.com/k4HiEfR.png (https://i.imgur.com/k4HiEfR.png)
Well - there's not even a "graphics" subfolder in vanilla_creatures_graphics which would contain the raw. And the info.txt is: https://i.imgur.com/torgNgL.png (https://i.imgur.com/torgNgL.png)
I understand why "images" folder would be either missing, empty, or contained empty images, but the raws should be there so custom tilesets that work both in Classic and Premium could be developed.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 14, 2023, 04:33:57 pm
Post by: Bumber on December 14, 2023, 10:39:43 pm
The tileset maker should instead define their own graphics raws based on the images they're providing. That will overwrite the default whether it's Classic (undefined) or Premium, correct?
Post by: DPh Kraken on December 15, 2023, 12:05:05 am
Post by: Pillbo on December 15, 2023, 12:16:14 am
Will portraits work with non standard races? For example experiments, angels, gorlaks etc?
How will the portrait system work with modded creatures?
Will there be a way to add/modify the sprite layers used to build the faces?
If none are provided will there be some kind of stand in?
Post by: Telgin on December 15, 2023, 11:45:07 am
I've tried to add baby graphics for a modded species using layered graphics and it looks like the game doesn't support it yet, even discounting the lack of graphics. There doesn't appear to be a [CONDITION_IS_BABY] tag, and trying to use [LAYER_SET:BABY] or [LAYER_SET:CHILD] with dwarf-style graphics raws caused the parser to malfunction as if it didn't expect to see [LAYER_GROUP] or [LAYER] tags beneath it.
Post by: Putnam on December 16, 2023, 05:45:00 am
Will you add graphics raws to the Classic version so implementing custom graphics packs that are compatible both with premium and Classic will be easier? I'm talking about the TXT files in vanilla*_graphics that are present in premium but not in classic, not the art itself.
So, problem here: those would cause errors, since the graphics files themselves won't be present. I'm pretty sure Toady's said they're free to upload or whatever, so ideally they should be on the wiki somewhere.
Post by: darkhog on December 16, 2023, 12:03:53 pm
Looks like the graphics raws define which image file and where in the image the sprite is located, as well as which creatures have multi-tile graphics. Shipping those raws means the image files have to be named and arranged in the exact way as Premium, which isn't particularly desirable when those files don't exist in Classic. (That probably causes errors for any improperly-sized or missing files, doesn't it? And if you provide images with blank tiles, you get invisible creatures rather than some kind of warning or placeholder.)
The tileset maker should instead define their own graphics raws based on the images they're providing. That will overwrite the default whether it's Classic (undefined) or Premium, correct?
I'm fine with naming images the same as Premium (in fact I prefer it so it then works both on Classic and Premium), and having empty images wouldn't be a problem since Classic defaults to using the ASCII renderer anyways, so the invisible graphics won't be rendered anyway, the ASCII stuff will.
Post by: mikekchar on December 16, 2023, 05:46:03 pm
Edit: I've had a bit of a look today. Indeed, it's not that difficult. Just trying to wrap my head around what I *think* are the animation sequences. It's possible that each type of thing has a different notation? But I'll make a Github repository with my work and you (or anyone else) can start from there. I'll probably make an "invisible" graphics set which just uses official TXT files, but uses transparent tilesets. This should mean that everything will work, but that you won't be able to see anything. I'll also try to document what the TXT files mean and how they relate to the actual tiles if I can figure it out.
(Second edit: doesn't need answering) Toady, please tell me if the TXT files in the graphics directories (for example data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings_graphics/graphics_workshops.txt) are *not* public domain. I assume they are because I can't imagine being able to make a graphics set without essentially basing it on those.
Second Edit: I notice a clear statement in the readme putting those files in the public domain, so I guess it's good to go. Going to remove the limegreen since I don't think my query needs answering.
Third (and last) Edit: https://github.com/mikekchar/df-invisible-gs Currently no pngs yet, but hopefully I'll get to it relatively soon. However, these are all the raw txt files.
Post by: Bumber on December 17, 2023, 05:01:23 pm
I'm fine with naming images the same as Premium (in fact I prefer it so it then works both on Classic and Premium), and having empty images wouldn't be a problem since Classic defaults to using the ASCII renderer anyways, so the invisible graphics won't be rendered anyway, the ASCII stuff will.
If you're just overwriting images without providing custom raws, that's not really going to work with a partial tileset. The partial tileset needs some raws to say it's only replacing some cows rather than all domestic animals (with invisible squares.) So it's probably not a huge leap do the same and provide (a copy of the vanilla) raws for a complete tileset rather than rely on the vanilla raws being present. Now consider that the vanilla raws can be updated. There's potential problems that can occur if you're relying on the current vanilla raws to accurately describe your tileset, rather than the old raws of your tileset's last update. I can see that updating a complete tileset's raws might be some additional hassle, but you're going to need to know how those changes impact the images anyway.
Anyway, it seems somewhat pointless to include them in Classic if doing so merely shifts the problem. Providing just the raws isn't sufficient to avoid errors. Does Bay12 add a bunch of blank images to the Classic download just to stop those? Providing a minimalist tileset beyond that is probably against contract. Seems like it's up to the community to create one, which might as well be the thing that includes the raws. (You can assume that people using Classic have this installed if you really don't want to include raws with a Premium+Classic tileset.)
I guess one could argue that the vanilla graphics raws should be there as examples, without needing to look at the wiki.
I'll probably make an "invisible" graphics set which just uses official TXT files, but uses transparent tilesets. This should mean that everything will work, but that you won't be able to see anything.
Actually, why not use something non-transparent at that point, like the industry-standard hideous black and magenta checkerboard? (Solid color works too, I suppose.)
Post by: mikekchar on December 17, 2023, 06:56:17 pm
Actually, why not use something non-transparent at that point, like the industry-standard hideous black and magenta checkerboard?
Good idea. Will do. I have to learn how to use ImageMagick though :P
Post by: darkhog on December 18, 2023, 05:47:41 am
I'm fine with naming images the same as Premium (in fact I prefer it so it then works both on Classic and Premium), and having empty images wouldn't be a problem since Classic defaults to using the ASCII renderer anyways, so the invisible graphics won't be rendered anyway, the ASCII stuff will.
If you're just overwriting images without providing custom raws, that's not really going to work with a partial tileset. The partial tileset needs some raws to say it's only replacing some cows rather than all domestic animals (with invisible squares.) So it's probably not a huge leap do the same and provide (a copy of the vanilla) raws for a complete tileset rather than rely on the vanilla raws being present. Now consider that the vanilla raws can be updated. There's potential problems that can occur if you're relying on the current vanilla raws to accurately describe your tileset, rather than the old raws of your tileset's last update. I can see that updating a complete tileset's raws might be some additional hassle, but you're going to need to know how those changes impact the images anyway.
Anyway, it seems somewhat pointless to include them in Classic if doing so merely shifts the problem. Providing just the raws isn't sufficient to avoid errors. Does Bay12 add a bunch of blank images to the Classic download just to stop those? Providing a minimalist tileset beyond that is probably against contract. Seems like it's up to the community to create one, which might as well be the thing that includes the raws. (You can assume that people using Classic have this installed if you really don't want to include raws with a Premium+Classic tileset.)
I guess one could argue that the vanilla graphics raws should be there as examples, without needing to look at the wiki.I'll probably make an "invisible" graphics set which just uses official TXT files, but uses transparent tilesets. This should mean that everything will work, but that you won't be able to see anything.
Actually, why not use something non-transparent at that point, like the industry-standard hideous black and magenta checkerboard? (Solid color works too, I suppose.)
It will be full graphics replacement, that's why I'm waiting until Adventure mode is released before I start.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 19, 2023, 07:24:09 pm
I noticed it mentions you can click on a tile to open a context menu for that tile, but does that option also exist on keyboard, like the way the 'l' and 'k' keys do in the currently released adv mode? Thats a pretty important functionality for keyboard-only support i figure
Post by: voliol on December 20, 2023, 06:07:23 am
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on December 20, 2023, 06:16:55 am
Post by: Eric Blank on December 20, 2023, 09:03:13 pm
Post by: Pillbo on December 20, 2023, 09:20:48 pm
The walrus man is described as "A legless person with the head and back flippers of a walrus" and has the tag ANIMAL_PERSON_LEGLESS, but in the new sprites clearly has legs. It's the same with the elephant seal man (but not the leopard seal man or harp seal man...). The snail man is kind of the opposite, it should have legs but it's sprite shows it as legless.
Are the animal people going to be updated to match their sprites or is that just not an important detail to you?
(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/3/34/Walrus_man_sprite.png) (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/3/3a/Elephant_seal_man_sprite.png) (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/5/57/Snail_man_sprite.png)
For what it's worth I like all three of these changes (snails shouldn't have legs!), but it will be strange when a legless looking snail man gets his legs broken or kicks you.
Post by: Shinziril on December 22, 2023, 06:53:23 pm
Post by: mross on December 24, 2023, 10:46:05 pm
Post by: Bumber on December 24, 2023, 11:53:54 pm
the new sprites clearly has legs.
They're just really beefy flippers.
Post by: Immortal-D on December 27, 2023, 01:23:42 pm
Post by: lethosor on December 28, 2023, 03:29:09 pm
Has working on Premium Adventure Mode allowed you to make any progress towards restoring the keyboard cursor in Fortress Mode?There's already a keyboard cursor option that you can enable in fortress mode (I believe as far back as 50.01).
If you mean additional keyboard controls... I suspect no fortress mode keyboard controls are coming along "for free" as part of the adv mode work, but I do know Putnam has been working on some significant UI backend/framework improvements that may make keyboard support (in both modes) easier to develop in the long run. (One nearer-term goal here is to make native searching/sorting features easier to develop as well.)
Post by: ror6ax on December 28, 2023, 07:11:29 pm
Has there been any movement towards automating game tests before releases?
Post by: mikekchar on December 29, 2023, 01:02:00 am
Post by: Beag on December 30, 2023, 06:50:41 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on December 31, 2023, 03:16:46 pm
Post by: Randomizer on December 31, 2023, 06:10:50 pm
I could see a couple dwarves mining and another dwarf loading a mine cart and taking the unwanted rubble out of the mine. We already have mine carts!!! We already have dumping zones too. You might have to tweak how quantum stockpiling works, but it could be done. Quantum stockpiling also seems like a quick fix that will be overhauled later.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 31, 2023, 11:34:41 pm
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 01, 2024, 04:32:16 am
The map rewrite may well change the vein/cluster/... logic, in particular to generate a 3D connection (so several levels build up a body or ore, rather than the current logic where each Z level is generated independently of the other levels within the same layer. Such a change would probably result in in more tiles of ore for the kinds that are selected, but fewer kinds would likely be generated (basically larger but fewer bodies of ore, potentially resulting in about the same number of ore tiles in total)). This might potentially result in a balancing change.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 01, 2024, 05:55:13 am
The mining yield is a balancing issue rather than a map issue, and has been addressed once, as mentioned by Eric Blank.
The map rewrite may well change the vein/cluster/... logic, in particular to generate a 3D connection (so several levels build up a body or ore, rather than the current logic where each Z level is generated independently of the other levels within the same layer. Such a change would probably result in in more tiles of ore for the kinds that are selected, but fewer kinds would likely be generated (basically larger but fewer bodies of ore, potentially resulting in about the same number of ore tiles in total)). This might potentially result in a balancing change.
This sounds similar to what 3dveins in DFHack does. In particular, 3dveins uses Perlin noise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perlin_noise) to generate ore veins in 3d.
Post by: BlueManedHawk on January 01, 2024, 10:51:18 am
<snip/>
The map rewrite may well change the vein/cluster/... logic, in particular to generate a 3D connection (so several levels build up a body or ore, rather than the current logic where each Z level is generated independently of the other levels within the same layer.
<snip/>
I don't really see what gameplay value 3D veins in particular would add to Dwarf Fortress besides confusing people who don't realize that the veins are 3D.
Post by: lethosor on January 01, 2024, 01:59:16 pm
I don't really see what gameplay value 3D veins in particular would add to Dwarf Fortress besides confusing people who don't realize that the veins are 3D.Well, the purpose of the DFHack plugin was to make veins more "realistic" for those who want that. Real-life veins generally aren't flat.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 02, 2024, 03:58:54 am
I'm not sure why people would be confused by veins being 3D like they are in real life (e.g. slanted at an angle due to geologic processes).
Post by: BlueManedHawk on January 02, 2024, 09:20:41 am
I don't see the point of realism for the sake of realism if it doesn't serve a gameplay function.I don't really see what gameplay value 3D veins in particular would add to Dwarf Fortress besides confusing people who don't realize that the veins are 3D.Well, the purpose of the DFHack plugin was to make veins more "realistic" for those who want that. Real-life veins generally aren't flat.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 02, 2024, 11:44:06 pm
Lutefisk?
Post by: Toady One on January 03, 2024, 12:51:40 am
Quote
Quote from: Eric BlankHow was thanksgiving for you Toady?
did you get any cool christmas presents?Quote from: A_Curious_CatLutefisk?
There were several family parties and such - lutefisk even tasted good this year! Everybody was shocked.
Annie made us cool hoodies in the style of those pig hoodies I wear, with the pigs in a grid, but with the dwarf face in place of pigs.
Quote from: Acearl
So my question is, was this ever a feature that civs would intially have similar asestetic genetic traits? Or was this all head cannon created by coinsidences? If so why was it changed?
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8514784#msg8514784
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8514925#msg8514925
TheFlame52: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8514936#msg8514936
I think we used to have more similarity within the starting group of civs, yeah, then we removed that and made the starting group more variable. There should still be inherited traits. But there's also the matter of the non-figure pops, which had a set of traits but I think we leaned away from colors for that until we could point at it more, if we ever decided to do that, since it's potentially frustrating, especially in adv mode, where we eventually added a full randomization button anyway. It's complicated to figure out where that should land, similar to gender norms etc etc.
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Will the upcoming procedural portraits be applied to other humanoid creatures besides the playable races (such as semi-megabeasts)?
We're going to get to what we can! Ideally everybody would get portraits that reflect variations, wounds, and equipment, but that's a huge huge lift. We'll be lucky to have portraits beyond the playable critters (main races + animal people) for the initial portrait debut.
Quote from: darkhog
Will you add graphics raws to the Classic version so implementing custom graphics packs that are compatible both with premium and Classic will be easier? I'm talking about the TXT files in vanilla*_graphics that are present in premium but not in classic, not the art itself.
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8516621#msg8516621
darkhog (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8516666#msg8516666
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8516762#msg8516762
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8516886#msg8516886
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8517262#msg8517262
darkhog (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8517307#msg8517307
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8517438#msg8517438
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8517855#msg8517855
etc.
Yeah, the txt files for the graphics stuff are all public domain, and as Putnam said, I don't include them in Classic because there'd be a ton of error messages and possibly actual errors as well.
Quote from: kontako
Will the attire represented in the portraits enable distinction of units based on things like the social standing, culture, etc?
Will weapons / shield also be shown in the portrait?
Do you think that generated mythologies would be as extensive as current world generation history? (i.e, spanning hundreds to thousands of events and characters)
Do ettins have two personalities / souls?
There isn't any additional information attached to it, though social standing is represented for some critters by item quality, which will appear, and culture chooses which of the items are available. But the more subtle variations don't yet have cultural links. That won't happen until I attach words to clothing variations I expect.
We've talked a bit about weapons and shields, not sure if we'll get there. It'd already be supportable for mods I think, since the full body layers can show those things and it's the same format.
If the distinction between the mythologies and the world histories is the existence of world-tile-level maps, then I doubt it, since we won't be able to spatially distinguish the same number of historical figures. But there are gray areas as the maps come into focus. It's still not entirely clear what year 1 is, or if there's even going to be a clear year 1 anymore (vs. a variety of calendars etc.) It may be hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. That could be ideal.
The current ettin like the hydra etc. just has one soul. Almost certainly the ettin will end up with two when we get there, at least it seems like they are mostly depicted as arguing... I have no idea about the hydra. The conversation engine doesn't currently support a unit arguing with itself very well, especially in a way that distinguishes souls. That would be part of that update.
Quote from: DPh Kraken
Did the hippo man wrestler in the trailer organically accept to come with, or was there some manipulation behind the scenes? I tend to have trouble recruiting in my adventure games.
Nah, we only had a few animal people portraits at the time, so we had to stage a bit to get the art we had into play. I tried to do it fair at first, but I had a ton of trouble finding a hippo person at all and eventually resorted to a horrifying transformation of a human warrior bar patron. It'd be easier now that there are more portraits, and we're generally hoping to address the recruiting problem a bit before the release.
Quote
Quote from: PillboWill portraits work with non standard races? For example experiments, angels, gorlaks etc?
How will the portrait system work with modded creatures?
Will there be a way to add/modify the sprite layers used to build the faces?
If none are provided will there be some kind of stand in?Quote from: A_Curious_CatWill it be possible for modders to mod in their own custom procedurally generated portaits (for example, for a modded in race)?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8518601#msg8518601
We haven't drawn the non-standard races (we'd like to!) But the portrait system works exactly like the current layer critters, like building a face instead of a whole creature, and we've added a few more layer graphics commands (that function everywhere) to make it work. So it'll work for mods and any creature you care to draw (including non-layer critters - you can set up a portrait layer with one image without screwing everything else up I think, as the most simple way through.)
Quote from: Telgin
What are the plans to add baby graphics for dwarves and other layered creatures? Is that on the backburner due to the level of effort?
We've already got them, I think, for dwarf children and possibly also babies - I'm the bottleneck for several things like this.
Quote from: Eric Blank
I noticed it mentions you can click on a tile to open a context menu for that tile, but does that option also exist on keyboard, like the way the 'l' and 'k' keys do in the currently released adv mode? Thats a pretty important functionality for keyboard-only support i figure
Yeah, I was gonna wait until I did mouse hover info, but we'll have a keyboard cursor for look that probably doubles as the context cursor. Don't want to dig the hole deeper with Adv mode!
Quote from: voliol
Are the armor variations seen in the most recent devpost based on item quality?
There are item quality sets, as well as random variations for a lot of clothing. I'd prefer to also get those linked to fashion-type terms in text, but I haven't done that so they'll be random for now (variant + item quality.)
Quote from: Pillbo
The walrus man is described as "A legless person with the head and back flippers of a walrus" and has the tag ANIMAL_PERSON_LEGLESS, but in the new sprites clearly has legs. It's the same with the elephant seal man (but not the leopard seal man or harp seal man...). The snail man is kind of the opposite, it should have legs but it's sprite shows it as legless.
Are the animal people going to be updated to match their sprites or is that just not an important detail to you?
Shinziril: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8519037#msg8519037
mross: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8519286#msg8519286
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8519293#msg8519293
Yeah, there are some errors there from my poor communication with the artist (because there were so many to do at once.) My fault. And yeah, for whatever reason, we did decide early on that snail people should have legs and slug people shouldn't ha ha (and I failed to communicate that.)
Quote from: Immortal-D
Has working on Premium Adventure Mode allowed you to make any progress towards restoring the keyboard cursor in Fortress Mode?
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8520000#msg8520000
Yeah, the Adv mode stuff isn't directly related (despite me working to have keyboard enabled there), but Putnam's already got some keyboard stuff working in Fort mode on some additional menus. It's already in progress.
Quote from: ror6ax
Any recent programming discoveries/new approaches since Putnam joined?
Has there been any movement towards automating game tests before releases?
Nothing recently as I recall (Putnam might have a more interesting answer, I've been in menu land, though Putnam has also been in menu land ha ha), and no movement in that direction though I was hoping to start at some point after one of the recent releases.
Quote from: Beag
I remember in an interview earlier this year that you said you may sneak in small additions related to future content as you continue the updates at hand. Is there any chance next year after adventure mode comes out, we get another magical side activity like the divination dice?
We'll see! We have plotted several pathways forward that will interact with the April deadline. If we don't get to the coolest stuff, it'll still come right after.
Quote from: Randomizer
When you get to the map rewrite, how far do you intend to go to change the current system of mining? Right now a large number of tiles cleared do not drop stone. This practically annoying when you mine an ore vein and see a large number of tiles not drop ore. This seems like a quick fix for something you intent to overhaul later.
I could see a couple dwarves mining and another dwarf loading a mine cart and taking the unwanted rubble out of the mine. We already have mine carts!!! We already have dumping zones too. You might have to tweak how quantum stockpiling works, but it could be done. Quantum stockpiling also seems like a quick fix that will be overhauled later.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8521152#msg8521152
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8521200#msg8521200
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8521222#msg8521222
BlueManedHawk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8521241#msg8521241
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8521313#msg8521313
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8521512#msg8521512
BlueManedHawk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8521553#msg8521553
Having stone drop everywhere would be an FPS problem as I understand it, and it also creates more hauling jobs (or more stone to hide, which is also unsatisfactory), which is bad for the game. I know a lot of people want harder mining though. Now that we have literal difficulty settings, perhaps this is more easily in the cards. But it won't relate to the map rewrite at all.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2024, 01:06:39 am
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 03, 2024, 02:14:46 am
Quote from: voliolAre the armor variations seen in the most recent devpost based on item quality?
There are item quality sets, as well as random variations for a lot of clothing. I'd prefer to also get those linked to fashion-type terms in text, but I haven't done that so they'll be random for now (variant + item quality.)
Does this mean that the portraits shown will change variations every time they're displayed (at least until they're linked to fashion-item terms)?
Post by: Eric Blank on January 03, 2024, 02:20:31 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 03, 2024, 07:24:46 pm
Post by: Bumber on January 04, 2024, 10:18:43 am
Annie made us cool hoodies in the style of those pig hoodies I wear, with the pigs in a grid, but with the dwarf face in place of pigs.
Pics?
Post by: Telgin on January 04, 2024, 05:04:54 pm
Does this mean that the portraits shown will change variations every time they're displayed (at least until they're linked to fashion-item terms)?
I'm guessing it uses the random part sprite system used to randomize unit faces already. I'm pretty sure the random part "sticks" even between game sessions, probably using a simple RNG based on the unit ID or something.
Post by: Immortal-D on January 07, 2024, 12:22:26 pm
- Are there plans to allow editing the default labor groups?
- Have you ever considered adding a world painter for precision embarks? (trying to spawn good & evil tiles adjacent is incredibly difficult)
- Do you know if Adventure Mode will be backwards compatible with existing worlds?
Yeah, the Adv mode stuff isn't directly related (despite me working to have keyboard enabled there), but Putnam's already got some keyboard stuff working in Fort mode on some additional menus. It's already in progress.- Does this mean we can fully remap the sub-menus? Like right now adding a hotkey for building a door requires a custom graphic corresponding to said keys.
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 09, 2024, 03:42:02 am
Apart from that, there was also the ability to define the parameter values for all the world tiles (Savagery, Elevation, etc.) in a file (used by the DF supplied tool) which could also be used by third party tools to define a world. However, the set of parameters did not include Evilness, probably partially because this is determined at a later stage in the world generation process (it was still possible to hack it if you interrupted the world generation at that stage and changed what DF generated to what you wanted before continuing the world generation process).
The reason for me using past tense is that I don't know what the situation is post Premium: the painter may or may not remain, and I would suspect the support for the parameter definition hasn't been removed as I don't see any immediate reason for why it would be affected, but I don't know.
But yes, parameter support for defining the base Evilness distribution in the world (before sources of Evil appear and spread their influences) would be very useful. Obviously, all this will go out the window once Evilness gets replaced by Spheres, but it will be a fair number of years before that becomes available.
It could be noted that it should be possible to make a DFHack script for the pre Premium version to interrupt world generation and override the generated Evilness with data from a file of a similar format to that used for the official parameters before resuming world generation. I suspect it would be possible for the post Premium release versions as well.
Post by: Ziusudra on January 09, 2024, 06:45:51 pm
I would suspect the support for the parameter definition hasn't been removed as I don't see any immediate reason for why it would be affected, but I don't know.I'm guessing these parameters are how PerfectWorldDF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=57428.0) does its thing, which does work with v50+.
Post by: Ziusudra on January 11, 2024, 11:23:59 pm
Do you think there's any current features that might not make the initial adventurer mode release? Like the camp building mentioned on Blind's steam.
Are the controls also going to be designed around WASD?
Post by: uristmctinkerer on January 12, 2024, 08:13:00 am
Thank you!
Post by: Bumber on January 12, 2024, 02:31:52 pm
Any chance we will have key shortcuts such as "q", "+" and "-" back to fortress mode in the premium version?
Thank you!
Are you asking for the return of a keyboard cursor, basically?
Post by: Vanzetti on January 12, 2024, 04:11:08 pm
Post by: Putnam on January 14, 2024, 06:32:25 pm
How hard would it be to make the motion graphics of DF more smooth, interpolating the movement of creature sprites between squares instead of jumping discreetly from one position to the next? Rimworld style, basically.
The problems here are mostly that:
1. Movement can be interrupted
2. Movement is often faster than the game's frames per second; I like to play the game at 1000 FPS, and at that speed, units move ~1.6 tiles per frame, meaning that ~60% of the time you'll see dwarves move two tiles in a frame
The only really reasonable way to do it is to do a lerp of the sprite's position offset between their current and target destinations based on how far they are into their movement, which, yeah, doable, but might result in really weird visuals, snapbacks and things.
Post by: voliol on January 15, 2024, 06:19:08 am
Post by: uristmctinkerer on January 15, 2024, 08:04:41 am
The only really reasonable way to do it is to do a lerp of the sprite's position offset between their current and target destinations based on how far they are into their movement, which, yeah, doable, but might result in really weird visuals, snapbacks and things.
Not only that, there's a reason why rimworld units don't have legs. Simple interpolating the current sprites will look very weird and will require additional animations (at least something like the steps animation from keeperrl). And lerping the sprite's position between current and target destinations is not that straightforward, you need to chain all the different movements otherwise you will get the sprite in the wrong location if the unit is doing a 90 degrees turn for example.
I personally prefer the game the way it is now and I'd be happy if Putnam and Toad are working on other stuff like UI improvements (searches pls!) or expanding the game. Just my 2c
Post by: TheBeardyMan on January 16, 2024, 08:15:22 am
In the premium version, changing the font in the FONT tag still changes the images used for ASCII graphics, but the aspect ratio for map cells remains the same as that of the default font.
Will this feature - the font aspect ratio driving the display aspect ratio - be making a comeback?
Post by: Ziusudra on January 16, 2024, 07:33:05 pm
Will this feature - the font aspect ratio driving the display aspect ratio - be making a comeback?It still does that in ASCII mode -- use a square set and you get square tiles -- but how would that even work in graphics mode? What would you expect to happen to the graphics tiles, would they get squished or stretched?
Post by: mikekchar on January 16, 2024, 10:15:05 pm
In graphics mode, it will never come up since the tiles work significantly differently. If I get time, I'm actually going to make a graphics set composed entirely of ASCII glyphs with the character centered in the tile.
Post by: Putnam on January 22, 2024, 01:44:35 am
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 25, 2024, 04:39:34 am
Also, what about elves? Will they no longer be able to be demigods (or will it be possible for a “force” to be a demigod parent)?
Post by: voliol on January 25, 2024, 05:11:23 am
Tutorialization through deity sounds really fun, though I wonder:
1. In worlds without deities, or civilizations without, how will the demigod tutorial work? Will some other being take that tutor position? Or will it be impossible to play an atheist demigod?
2. Will demigods from goblins/dark fortress civs get guidance from the deified civ leader? Will megabeast-followers get it from their patron roc or dragon? What if this physical deity dies?
Post by: Digganob on January 25, 2024, 01:04:54 pm
2. Will a rework of the combat system, or at least the information displayed, be done at any point soon? A lot of things are somewhat confusing, like how "squareness" affects armor penetration and damage, what the chances of penetration and dismemberment are to begin with, how much skill affects things like dodging, parrying, chance to hit, etc. I think that clarity is more important than actual changes, especially considering the newer players.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 25, 2024, 03:17:13 pm
Post by: Rumrusher on January 25, 2024, 07:52:26 pm
the force tutorialization stuff kinda threw a monkey wrench in my common demi-god adv runs a bit
that said I wonder what this means for multiple adv party members if one of them is a demi-god? Does that lead to the Tori the goddess of Tutor popping in to explain a feature if a player tabs over to the demi-god?
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on January 25, 2024, 08:29:44 pm
Post by: Ten_Tacles on January 26, 2024, 04:44:37 am
Perhaps procedurally generated, culturally unique recipes?
Is an overhaul planned for other older parts as well?
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 26, 2024, 11:04:44 am
Will there ever be a rework of how alcohol is brewed, which is currently really simplistic and kinda boring for a game about alcohol addicted dwarves?Pardon me, slight mistake there - questions for Toady need to be coloured in Lime Green, there should be a drop down list 'change color' when editing.
Perhaps procedurally generated, culturally unique recipes?
Post by: Beag on January 26, 2024, 01:45:23 pm
2. Will the spheres of a demigod character's divine parent matter in determining their special powers?
3. Since property rights are being overhauled does this mean we can no longer walk into a random warehouse and start stealing goods with no consequences?
4. Will hamlets get a new provider for food for adventurers since they don't have markets or inns? I assume the property rights update will stop us from stealing food from random people's houses with no consequences.
5. Previously characters could talk to their deity and get no response, with the myth and magic stuff coming will there now actually be some form of response to talking to a character's deity?
Post by: Blue_Dwarf on January 26, 2024, 10:18:32 pm
He is somehow unable to see all other green colors.Will there ever be a rework of how alcohol is brewed, which is currently really simplistic and kinda boring for a game about alcohol addicted dwarves?Pardon me, slight mistake there - questions for Toady need to be coloured in Lime Green, there should be a drop down list 'change color' when editing.
Perhaps procedurally generated, culturally unique recipes?
Post by: PatrikLundell on January 27, 2024, 04:32:43 am
1. Make it easy for Toady to find the questions among all the chaff that is other discussions and answers to questions. Going through a month's worth of posts and find where to start combing to prepare an answer would be even more of a chore if there were no highlights to navigate between.
2. Make the colored text legible. I for one find the darker green harder to read than the lime green one, and I would guess that's the reason the latter one is selected for the convention. Squinting your way through what's already a tedious task would make it worse.
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 27, 2024, 06:29:39 am
1. Will peasant characters be able to join temple organizations to get bonuses when interacting with related deities? If so, what would the temple faction expect from the peasant character in return?
2. Will the spheres of a demigod character's divine parent matter in determining their special powers?
3. Since property rights are being overhauled, does this mean we can no longer walk into a random warehouse and start stealing goods with no consequences?
4. Will hamlets get a new provider for food for adventurers, since they don't have markets or inns? I assume the property rights update will stop us from stealing food from random people's houses with no consequences.
5. Previously characters could talk to their deity and get no response, with the myth and magic stuff coming will there now actually be some form of response to talking to a character's deity?
For #3 and #4, I guess the existing punishment will be toned down, for being overly harsh for the crime of theft and the ownership of items will almost certainly be clarified, for being perhaps too unclear (inventory-only $like so$, although I never encountered it myself) ATM. (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Adventurer_mode#Personal_finance)
Post by: aSpatula66 on January 27, 2024, 10:02:26 am
So with the demi-god being converted into tutorial mode is there like an option to have the old demi-god settings? So that future runs aren't just stuck to the two lesser point pool options or risk dealing with the tutorial again?
the force tutorialization stuff kinda threw a monkey wrench in my common demi-god adv runs a bit
that said I wonder what this means for multiple adv party members if one of them is a demi-god? Does that lead to the Tori the goddess of Tutor popping in to explain a feature if a player tabs over to the demi-god?
I think the changes to demigods are going to be more like you're the hearthperson to a deity who you can talk to any time, and they will send you on quests with minor and medium blessings as rewards (could probably reuse divination blessings.) I think that playing a hearthperson was the intended experience for new players in older editions, so it would make sense to make the demigod changes work like that. Probably when you open a UI element there will be a tutorial popup explaining what it does like in fort mode, for all three difficulties.
Post by: Rumrusher on January 27, 2024, 12:34:34 pm
gonna pop in to say as an old player, the hearthperson stuff was just added because folks wanted traditional quests and the 'not actually quests' but telling you events that happen in the world 'ask for troubles' stuff had made many new players confused in the past, it just that the quests the lords gave out were also the ones that demand a bit more game mastery than the 'kill 7 rats' gamer assumptions so not many folks were not able to complete them.So with the demi-god being converted into tutorial mode is there like an option to have the old demi-god settings? So that future runs aren't just stuck to the two lesser point pool options or risk dealing with the tutorial again?
the force tutorialization stuff kinda threw a monkey wrench in my common demi-god adv runs a bit
that said I wonder what this means for multiple adv party members if one of them is a demi-god? Does that lead to the Tori the goddess of Tutor popping in to explain a feature if a player tabs over to the demi-god?
I think the changes to demigods are going to be more like you're the hearthperson to a deity who you can talk to any time, and they will send you on quests with minor and medium blessings as rewards (could probably reuse divination blessings.) I think that playing a hearthperson was the intended experience for new players in older editions, so it would make sense to make the demigod changes work like that. Probably when you open a UI element there will be a tutorial popup explaining what it does like in fort mode, for all three difficulties.
and these quests were agreements so that just stuck out in the quest log agreements showing you never did figure out how to solve this lord's puzzle.
having deities be a version of that on top of being a tutorial is going to be Rough since with lords folks who get fed up with their quests could just take matters in their own hands and just take over the site... and dispose of them.
deities don't have that much luxury of just shutting up.
Post by: aSpatula66 on January 27, 2024, 01:57:29 pm
Post by: Doren I on January 27, 2024, 02:46:49 pm
Post by: ryno on January 28, 2024, 01:24:59 am
Post by: voliol on January 28, 2024, 04:22:05 am
I'm also curious if there's an official answer to this, what they are in the current version of the game. Otherwise it should be expanded upon when Myth & Magic drops for real. Are these giant animals monstrosities created by a force of chaos, only similar to normal animals as a mockery of their form? Are they normal animals warped by the magic surging in the lands? Or are they escapees from the platonic realm of beasts? Etc. etc... I imagine that will depend on their procedurally generated past in mythgen.
Post by: Silverwing235 on January 28, 2024, 06:53:54 am
I'm also curious if there's an official answer to this, what they are in the current version of the game. Otherwise it should be expunged upon when Myth & Magic drops for real. Are these giant animals monstrosities created by a force of chaos, only similar to normal animals as a mockery of their form? Are they normal animals warped by the magic surging in the lands? Or are they escapees from the platonic realm of beasts? Etc. etc... I imagine that will depend on their procedurally generated past in mythgen.
"Expunged upon" - surely not a typo/AC issue?
Post by: voliol on January 28, 2024, 09:11:45 am
Post by: DrudeFiegler on January 30, 2024, 11:06:00 am
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on January 30, 2024, 08:00:46 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on January 30, 2024, 09:08:46 pm
Sorry to hear that 50.12 is delayed, but why do the links to the report and FoTF in the 1/30 devlog point to the ones from last month?
Probably because he didn't post about them the beginning of january
Post by: Toady One on February 02, 2024, 02:55:47 am
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Does this mean that the portraits shown will change variations every time they're displayed (at least until they're linked to fashion-item terms)?
Telgin: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8522215#msg8522215
Yeah, Telgin's got this one. It's possible to randomize in a consistent way on a per item basis. This one's slightly complicated since the item can theoretically float between different creature types if it isn't stopped by size (from a human to a 70000 size experiment, for example), so it has to be able to survive that, but that's just a matter of making the text consistent in the different raw layer entries, and having any necessary art available. (whether size 70000 experiments have portraits with full clothing variations by the first release is a different question ha ha, the art work can really go on forever, in a good way, like the rest of the game)
Quote from: Bumber
Quote from: meAnnie made us cool hoodies in the style of those pig hoodies I wear, with the pigs in a grid, but with the dwarf face in place of pigs.
Pics?
https://bay12games.com/imgs/krumkake.jpg
Quote from: Immortal-D
- Why is the number of custom labor groups limited and with numbers instead of icons?
- Are there plans to allow editing the default labor groups?
- Have you ever considered adding a world painter for precision embarks? (trying to spawn good & evil tiles adjacent is incredibly difficult)
- Do you know if Adventure Mode will be backwards compatible with existing worlds?Quote from: meYeah, the Adv mode stuff isn't directly related (despite me working to have keyboard enabled there), but Putnam's already got some keyboard stuff working in Fort mode on some additional menus. It's already in progress.- Does this mean we can fully remap the sub-menus? Like right now adding a hotkey for building a door requires a custom graphic corresponding to said keys.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8522780#msg8522780
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8522859#msg8522859
- Just didn't have time to do the art before the December 2022 release with the rest that was going on, and I didn't use the custom icons we had at the time since there were only a few the last I worked on it. The player custom icons between burrows, squads, work details, etc., could be more unified and useful. I'm not sure when we'll get to it, but it could certainly use improvement.
- This can be done in 50.12 on beta, although the normal restrictions on held-object labors apply.
- The replies covered some of this - if we get back into the map painting in vanilla, it'll be as part of the Myth/Magic editors, where we want to also include things like site maps. It's an open-ended topic like most of the rest of development - could spend all the rest of dev time on map editors ha ha, but we'll likely do some stuff that goes beyond the current arena and map field files.
- Yeah, Adventure Mode is compatible with existing worlds. I think certain things like portraits for necromancer experiments, if we get to those at all for the initial release, will be too time-consuming to get in to old saves, and some of the myth/magic stuff will probably require new generated objects, which would need a new world as well.
- We haven't touched the building menu yet so far as I remember. We're just adding stuff that people want, pretty much, with an eye on getting a full keyboard enabled experience back. It's not going to happen quickly.
Quote from: Ziusudra
Is saving in adventurer mode gonna gain the same options as in fort mode? Such as to save and continue playing or save to a new timeline.
Do you think there's any current features that might not make the initial adventurer mode release? Like the camp building mentioned on Blind's steam.
Are the controls also going to be designed around WASD?
I'm using the same save options, yeah.
I mentioned the camp building a long while ago and also in the latest adv mode update post (which probably was after your question) since it is the largest interface that isn't as core as stuff like inventory. It'll be in the second feature (i.e. not fix/tweak) update if it's not in the first.
There's diagonal movement so I'm not attempting WASD alone. I'm not sure what the keyboard option is for people without numberpads - eating up the QWEASDZCX cluster (or equivalent) is really expensive in terms of lost keys that we want for non-movement options. People can rebind of course, but I'd like a decent default option and am open to suggestions. I'm currently just using numberpad and/or mouse.
Quote from: uristmctinkerer
Any chance we will have key shortcuts such as "q", "+" and "-" back to fortress mode in the premium version?
We're slowly getting stuff back. 50.12 (up on beta now) has new keyboard controls for the unit lists.
Quote from: Vanzetti
How hard would it be to make the motion graphics of DF more smooth, interpolating the movement of creature sprites between squares instead of jumping discreetly from one position to the next? Rimworld style, basically.
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524213#msg8524213
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524343#msg8524343
uristmctinkerer: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524351#msg8524351
Yeah, I've assumed that even at the default FPS this would look torn and broken. Our creatures move very fast in comparison to other games.
Quote from: TheBeardyMan
Before the premium version, we could change which font to use for the ASCII graphics by changing the font name in the FONT tag in init.txt. In addition to changing the images used for the ASCII graphics, this would also cause map cells to be rendered with the aspect ratio of the font.
In the premium version, changing the font in the FONT tag still changes the images used for ASCII graphics, but the aspect ratio for map cells remains the same as that of the default font.
Will this feature - the font aspect ratio driving the display aspect ratio - be making a comeback?
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524678#msg8524678
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524707#msg8524707
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8525596#msg8525596
Don't have anything to add except that on top of the fix Putnam mentioned, there's a lot of marked spots in the code where there are assumptions about 8x12 and 32x32 playing together (like unit textures in unit lists) that would also need to be addressed specifically, and non-ugly solutions for some combinations are not obvious. But it would be nice.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Regarding the recent Steam announcement: will demigod players be able to select which deity is their divine parent, during character creation? Also, assuming that “demigod” here is used to refer to the child of a deity and a non-deity, will they also be assigned a non-deity parent?
Also, what about elves? Will they no longer be able to be demigods (or will it be possible for a “force” to be a demigod parent)?
Deity selection, yeah, that's the plan. I'm not as concerned about the non-deity parents currently - regular adventurers don't get those either. Deity selection could depend a lot on which options are most viable for an effective tutorial, if you're going for the tutorial aspect of it. If that ends up being tight, the tutorial side of it might force a selection, but that's not the general idea.
I think whatever myth creation ends up being here and later will have a lot to say about elven etc. demigods. In the most straightforward, fastest implementation, you'd always be a human or dwarf, yeah, but that situation is slowly going to get stranger and stranger. We'll also have to tutorialize completely non-magical worlds as well, eventually, or warn the player that full tutorials aren't available on those settings.
Quote from: voliol
Getting a chunk of myth stuff is super exciting, however finalized it turns out it, it really is a sign we're entering a new era of feature development, beyond the different kind of goodieness that graphics and reworked UI has and will continue to be.
Tutorialization through deity sounds really fun, though I wonder:
1. In worlds without deities, or civilizations without, how will the demigod tutorial work? Will some other being take that tutor position? Or will it be impossible to play an atheist demigod?
2. Will demigods from goblins/dark fortress civs get guidance from the deified civ leader? Will megabeast-followers get it from their patron roc or dragon? What if this physical deity dies?
1. I mean, if there are no gods, there are no demigods, in a technical sense. And yeah, we'll have to deal with it, but default worlds have them so it won't be a problem unless the player opts for it, at which point not having a full tutorial is not so bad. But yeah, ultimately if we have to go with a standard abstract tutorial that plays the same role that's fine. It just won't be as neat and will be missing some cool integration with other features (or be implemented in a flatter way.) We'll see how this feels when I'm farther along this track. Elves in forests being strictly left out of the tutorial zone is slightly weird. The force could work, though the whole point of forces was not to give them personal identities, not at all, and even an abstract "you feel this, you feel that" still does that to some extent.
2. Ha ha, the rocs and dragons don't become deities in vanilla, they are just worshipped by frightened/awed people. But of course the official introduction of myth/magic changes the possibilities up. Gonna have to make decisions as I go - I wouldn't expect anything here until I get the basics up.
Quote from: Digganob
1. Will the graphics layering system be expanded or made more powerful? For instance, will more conditions for quality like in portraits, or will conditions for other layers existing/not existing be added to the regular, small-scale sprites?
2. Will a rework of the combat system, or at least the information displayed, be done at any point soon? A lot of things are somewhat confusing, like how "squareness" affects armor penetration and damage, what the chances of penetration and dismemberment are to begin with, how much skill affects things like dodging, parrying, chance to hit, etc. I think that clarity is more important than actual changes, especially considering the newer players.
1. It's like anything else now, slowly expanding. The conditions we've added for portraits for instance work on all other layer types (like the small full body ones.) A portrait is just a type of layered image.
2. It was always lurking behind the siege/army update to some extent, and the return of adventure mode brings it back. I'm not sure what we'll have time to do for the initial release though. There are a ton of high priority items for new players. The mode is rough!
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
If a (very basic and incomplete) framework of the Myth & Magic system is coming with the Adventure update, does this mean the Big Wait might not be so big after all (at least, not counting the Big Wait we've already had waiting for the Big Wait)?
We're trying to kill the Big Wait dead at this point. Or, yeah, as you say, the pre-graphics wait was the actual Big Wait and we've already done it ha ha. Nice surprise if true!
Quote from: Rumrusher
So with the demi-god being converted into tutorial mode is there like an option to have the old demi-god settings? So that future runs aren't just stuck to the two lesser point pool options or risk dealing with the tutorial again?
the force tutorialization stuff kinda threw a monkey wrench in my common demi-god adv runs a bit
that said I wonder what this means for multiple adv party members if one of them is a demi-god? Does that lead to the Tori the goddess of Tutor popping in to explain a feature if a player tabs over to the demi-god?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526052#msg8526052
aSpatula66: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526275#msg8526275
Rumrusher (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526290#msg8526290
aSpatula66 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526297#msg8526297
Character creation is one of the big menus/screens I have left to do, and this has been on my mind a bit yeah. Up until now, the point pools enforced some sort of difficulty but didn't have any meaning in the world. There are different interpretations for how point pools could work for different modes in the new peasant/hero/demigod setup, with the added layers of basic difficulty and roleplaying. You should be able to play some kind of skilled warrior without having a divine parent or a heroic destiny for sure, with a variety of backgrounds in a way that makes sense. The good versions of this are out of scope for the initial release (proper background generation/selection, playing historical figures, etc etc), and we'll likely just expand the concept/name away from "Peasant" and support varied point pool difficulty options at first.
I think the tutorial aspect of guidance will be tied to the party, mostly likely, just for simplicity. But yeah, it's surely going to get weird as deity relationships build up in the party - I suppose this has always been true, even with regular relationships, since NPCs could hate different party members etc., and that probably led to intra-party stuff that simmered and broke in various ways ha ha. Happy for it to get totally messed up as long as the tutorial aspects remain intact.
Quote from: Ten_Tacles
Will there ever be a rework of how alcohol is brewed, which is currently really simplistic and kinda boring for a game about alcohol addicted dwarves?
Perhaps procedurally generated, culturally unique recipes?
Is an overhaul planned for other older parts as well?
We've got our fort mode list and one of the big things we're going to do after the initial adventure mode release is figure out how to balance additions going forward, without getting sucked into the language of major arcs we have never finished. Nice solid additions to fort mode are important, and we're hoping to slowly work through our giant backlog there while we're also expanding into the myth/magic/siege/villains/etc. stuff that we had previously planned in vanish-for-a-year+ arc terms. That's just not viable now with a team of people, which I think will be good, really. I've still got some ridiculous larks on lil version controlled branches so I haven't changed all that much ha ha, but they don't need to hold the nice solid bits up.
Quote from: Beag
1. Will peasant characters be able to join temple organizations to get bonuses when interacting with related deities? If so, what would the temple faction expect from the peasant character in return?
2. Will the spheres of a demigod character's divine parent matter in determining their special powers?
3. Since property rights are being overhauled does this mean we can no longer walk into a random warehouse and start stealing goods with no consequences?
4. Will hamlets get a new provider for food for adventurers since they don't have markets or inns? I assume the property rights update will stop us from stealing food from random people's houses with no consequences.
5. Previously characters could talk to their deity and get no response, with the myth and magic stuff coming will there now actually be some form of response to talking to a character's deity?
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526247#msg8526247
1. I expect it'll be the same as whatever we get to for everybody else, you'll just have to be proactive about retrieving relics or whatever we end up making easier for demigods (because the deity can short-circuit the being lost and confused part of it all.) One of the reasons we're going with demigod tutorials to start is that we can't quickly fix the issues in the base game with quest flow and such - it's a larger multi-step project (along the lines of the adv mode villain stuff, which included better investigation.) So I'd expect stuff here, but it might be hard to accomplish.
2. Depends on how much diversity we have - we have quite a bit available already, so it seems very possible.
3. This is the goal, but there's a lot to police. We're going to take some steps.
4. Probably not at first! There's a lot to do.
5. That's the basic idea ha ha. We thought it would be funny if that option actually worked.
Quote from: Doren I
Hello Toady and thanks for this wonderful game. I have been wondering if there was any word on a Mac release for the Steam version?
No additional word! I'm stuck in adventure land with a deadline. Still need a few computers. Linux being done theoretically means the hardest part is over, hopefully.
Quote
Quote from: rynoi have a question about the giant creatures of dorf fortress. Is it the case that they are very straight forwardly giant versions of real ones, or is it more like they are fantastical beings that are simply nicknamed after real ones due to their closest approximated similarities? Are the giant creatures considered to be genetically related to the normal ones? I understand that for their sprites they are simply scaled up versions of the base creature set, but I believe this is in order to save time above all else, and that it's possible that the canonical nature of giant creatures is not so 1:1, but can you clarify?Quote from: voliolI'm also curious if there's an official answer to this, what they are in the current version of the game. Otherwise it should be expanded upon when Myth & Magic drops for real. Are these giant animals monstrosities created by a force of chaos, only similar to normal animals as a mockery of their form? Are they normal animals warped by the magic surging in the lands? Or are they escapees from the platonic realm of beasts? Etc. etc... I imagine that will depend on their procedurally generated past in mythgen.
We don't have a theory for most things. We'd rather generate canon on a per-world basis. Of course we've had to make various decision for the default world, but here we didn't make any decisions at all except for the fact that there are "wild" regions with giant animals which are tied in some nebulous way to animal agitation and elves and forces and titans and big trees and sharp plants. We'll have a complete set of giant creature sprites with the adventure mode release (they are almost done!), and we've been conceptually vague with their art as well (though no longer so pixelated!). They are bigger, with the occasional emphasized feature.
Ideally, the magic release will give us all kinds of options, and they could have in-game repercussions. Animal people are explicitly created in the prototype through whatever random incident, and giant creatures (and every other kind of creature) should also have some kind of explanation eventually, with procedural emphasis.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Sorry to hear that 50.12 is delayed, but why do the links to the report and FoTF in the 1/30 devlog point to the ones from last month?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8527138#msg8527138
Yeah, I was just super late.
Post by: FrankVill on February 02, 2024, 05:00:11 am
Thank you very much as always for this FotF. I just wanted to let you know that the links in the new message on the main page are wrong. They lead to the previous month's posts.
Post by: Inarius on February 02, 2024, 05:33:22 am
Post by: voliol on February 02, 2024, 09:31:40 am
Post by: edwahjr on February 02, 2024, 02:49:49 pm
Post by: voliol on February 02, 2024, 03:14:36 pm
Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?
Welcome to the forums edwahjr!
In this thread we use lime green text to ask our questions to Toady. Like this:
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?[/color]=>Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?
Post by: FrankVill on February 02, 2024, 04:08:11 pm
@FrankVill no he is not wrong. He just forgot to link the previous (January) FotF & report, and did it on the 30th.
Sorry, I did not notice that before. I made a mistake. Thanks.
Post by: Ziusudra on February 02, 2024, 05:16:44 pm
I'd say it depends on: How much are the other controls changing and are any of the current ones are merging?Quote from: ZiusudraAre the controls also going to be designed around WASD?
There's diagonal movement so I'm not attempting WASD alone. I'm not sure what the keyboard option is for people without numberpads - eating up the QWEASDZCX cluster (or equivalent) is really expensive in terms of lost keys that we want for non-movement options. People can rebind of course, but I'd like a decent default option and am open to suggestions. I'm currently just using numberpad and/or mouse.
Like with the old roguelike scheme of a different button for each action givs us several different keys being used to interact with inventory that could be done in a single inventory screen, so d, p, w, and I at least could be in there, and maybe t (but that's more time to design and code and some of those options can also act on things outside the inventory, like eat or remove).
Meanwhile, a bunch of other options could be moved to the current x action menu, like opening the building menu (when it makes it in), interacting, starting climbs, the various info displays, the various preferences keys like for speed, sneak, movement, combat, etc. D, O, P, and W are all used pretty rarely and could really just be one function or a sub-menu in actions.
I currently play .47 adventurer mode on a 60% keyboard with out any keypad function keys, with custom bindings based around ESDF with WRXV for diagonals that works quite well. (WASD but one key to the right so I can hav both hands in the proper home position.) So either way I'll probably be rebinding anyway.
Post by: Button on February 02, 2024, 09:59:00 pm
Hey Toady! I assume by the time you read this the bug tracker will be fixed; but in future, who should we contact/how should we let somebody know when the bug tracker is broken?
It's out of temp space & preventing any new bug reports
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on February 02, 2024, 11:56:23 pm
Ah shoot, just missed him.
Hey Toady! I assume by the time you read this the bug tracker will be fixed; but in future, who should we contact/how should we let somebody know when the bug tracker is broken?
It's out of temp space
Might want to mention that it’s only affecting logged-in users.
Post by: edwahjr on February 03, 2024, 08:49:25 pm
Welcome to the forums edwahjr!
In this thread we use lime green text to ask our questions to Toady. Like this:Code: [Select][color=limegreen]Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?[/color]=>
Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?
Thank you for the heads up! i'll keep that in mind for the future!
Post by: clinodev on February 04, 2024, 01:53:30 am
Ah shoot, just missed him.
Hey Toady! I assume by the time you read this the bug tracker will be fixed; but in future, who should we contact/how should we let somebody know when the bug tracker is broken?
It's out of temp space & preventing any new bug reports
lethosor and myk002 have been on making reports about the tracker issues, but messaging any mod on the Kitfox Discord would probably work out pretty well if there's a sudden change in bug tracker status. There's a Kitfox employee assigned to managing it.
Post by: Inevtable Demon mom on February 04, 2024, 02:23:36 pm
- Is this new way of healing conceptualized like a mage casting a healing spell on an injuried person or more like an alchemist or a traditional healer rubbing a combination of weeds and other materials on the injury?
- Will the new healing method serve as a single multipurpose heal-it-all solution or will there be specific (hopefully randomized for each world!) requirements and quirks for each sort of injury? For example, if you're trying to heal torn ligaments the material/other requirements are somewhat different from if you're trying to heal nerve damage. In this case, will there be different recipes for these different kinds of healing? Will scholars in fortress mode be able to discover these recipes by doing research and discussing with other smartpants who come visit your fort?
- How viable are you planning to make having an adventurer be dedicated to medicine? Would be very cool to have yet another different niche to specialize in the coming adventure mode.
In any case, thank you so much for being amazing!
Post by: Eric Blank on February 04, 2024, 07:14:15 pm
Post by: Salvadaddy on February 07, 2024, 10:03:45 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on February 07, 2024, 10:37:29 pm
Post by: voliol on February 12, 2024, 08:50:50 am
Post by: TheMarmot on February 15, 2024, 12:25:08 am
Post by: Afroman726 on February 15, 2024, 08:01:35 pm
Post by: Caldfir on February 16, 2024, 12:23:21 am
Hello! Im very excited for the map rewrite and was wondering what sort of plans there are to expand the surface level in fort mode. I understand when you embark you can change the grid size but currently you have to load all Z levels below the surface. Has there been any thoughts to having 2 embark selections? One for surface and one for the underground? I can envision having a 25x25 surface fortress sprawling with hamlets, houses and temples while having a 3x3 underground area to mine out and explore. Would love to hear your thoughts! Thank you!!
Questions should be in limegreen for Toady to pick them up.
The "surface forts" thing comes up frequently when people ask about playing as humans. The most recent direct reply I can find regarding this is here:
Quote from: elantoI know this may sound a little strange, but I would like to know if your idea of an adventure mode will also be focused on people who prefer a more peaceful game mode? By this I mean if, for example, we can focus our objectives on making a farm and living peacefully on it, until the goblins allow us, spending our days fishing to sell the fish in the nearest city. Or, for example, be a merchant seeking his fortune to settle in a big city and have a life of luxury there? Or maybe set up a tavern in a city and work so that others can get drunk?... Will there be a possibility in the future of something like that? Would the ultimate idea of the game be to create a truly living world where we can truly do anything we want?
And another question that may have already been asked before, will it ever be possible in the vanilla game to play with other races in fortress mode?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8512440#msg8512440
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8512478#msg8512478
Yeah, it's really just a matter of work. Every idea you suggested requires not peace but a robust economy, for instance, which is something we've been vaguely aiming at but have failed to attain a few times. Other ideas of peaceful play styles require a more robust social sim. These are things we're interested in. Combat has always been easier, but it's not the only stuff we work on.
I think the reply addressed the other races question - gonna give it a shot with myth magic stuff. The game is geared a bit toward dwarfiness perhaps, and dwarfiness has given us certain leeway narratively, but we're not too too far from having aboveground/etc./etc. stuff working out. You do have a lot less play space that way. Spreading out to a much wider shallower play area, as you'd have in the NPC human villages, is a technical problem.
So this kind of thing - wider, shallower surface forts - is on the radar. The "technical challenge" is probably not just the fact that those extra z-levels merely *exist*. They squat uselessly in memory, but I think mostly that just makes fortress save/load slow, and is a bigger problem for adventure-mode where they have to be constantly re-generated. It seems likely that once surface-sites become a priority, Toady or Putnam can find the necessary optimizations.
I also know that the question of "site stacking" has come up a few times - like embarking in the caverns under a human town. Currently, the map treats all sites as being infinitely tall, and all kinds of broken wackiness results from any kind of overlap. Cubic sites that can sit atop one another is one of the main aims of the map-rewrite I think:
Quote from: therahedwigWith the map rewrite, were you also planning to make it easy for sites to dynamically resize? Like, for example, Dwarves digging down greedily, but also perhaps surface towns expanding.
I thought it might help a lot with situations where the player's fort map is slowing down because 250 cave horses are trying to path through the third cave, and I wasn't sure whether to expect that from the rewrite.
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937076#msg7937076
therahedwig (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937090#msg7937090
Yeah, as you say in your second post, it'll give us way more control over the "loaded pillar" so that the third cave just isn't loaded until you get down there, if that's what you mean about the cave horses. And there should be lots of other ramifications about how sites grow, overlap and are shaped generally. That's always been one of the oddest things about adv mode especially -- as you walk around, it has the underworld and all three cave layers loaded, which is just weird and wasteful (but necessary the way things are now.)
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 16, 2024, 03:15:49 am
Post by: DPh Kraken on February 18, 2024, 12:19:43 am
I have a couple of questions regarding Adventure Mode, generally on the modder's side of things.
1. The portraits look like they're set up to automatically apply the hundred-or-so raw colors for worn items and eyes, but I haven't seen them applied to any previews. Will there be palette support for layered graphics? Any new uses for palettes planned, like doing unit-colored clothing as a palleted graphic?
2. Adventure crafting is minimal without modded reactions, and thus end up running into unexpected limitations. Is it likely we will see any bugfixes for typical reaction pitfalls, like unwearable gloves or stacked/dimensioned reagents (bone, bars, globs, etc) in the April update?
Post by: aSpatula66 on February 18, 2024, 07:40:33 pm
Post by: saharo on February 19, 2024, 08:45:38 am
Several DF crafts depend - in their real-life counterparts - on having water: farming, brewing, cooking, dyeing, smithing, breeding, and I'm sure I'm missing some.
While df-irrigation is used to create farmable soil, farmers don't water their plants.
I'm sure this topic has been raised a million times, so I expect one of you more informed veterans to help me out :D
Post by: Eric Blank on February 19, 2024, 04:04:21 pm
there was some bugs buckets that needed fixing first, among other things. Worldgen forts also dont always have access to water, but i guess they can import products from hillocks which do. which was another aspect which player forts need to be able to do as well - found hillocks nearby or import/export directly from your outlying settlements.
Post by: PatrikLundell on February 21, 2024, 02:53:07 am
Post by: Urist McSadist on February 21, 2024, 01:24:22 pm
Post by: Pillbo on February 21, 2024, 01:50:28 pm
Quote
The new fluids invalidated most of the old code. Have water stop you when you jump into it so you don't go all the way down into the bottom is linked to density sink/float stuff, which I haven't done yet. I'm not sure what I'll get to. It'll either be done or get Req'd.
Other than that I saw lots of people make various comments about buoyancy being too hard, or implying you didn't want to implement it for some reason, but it's kinda hard to tell what is assumption, speculation, or accurate.
So what is the deal with buoyancy and why hasn't it been included yet? If it is a technical issue what are the major problems? Is it going to wait for boats?
It seems like it would open up a lot of fun water based shenanigans, and with everything having a density it's a little surprising this isn't part of the game yet.
Post by: Pillbo on February 21, 2024, 02:05:43 pm
Hello, Toady, have you come up with any new monsters or creatures randomly as you've been working on the adventure mode stuff? Also thanks for making such an amazing game
By "randomly" do you mean more procedurally-generated creatures? Because randomizing more creatures has definitely been one of the things Toady's talked a lot about in regards to Myth & Magic, but I personally doubt such elements will make it into the first adventure mode release on top of everything else that needs to be done (not for me to say, of course).
I think by "randomly" they mean something like an unexpected inspiration. Something more like "oh an ancient djinn would be a good addition since I'm touching up vaults".
Post by: Caldfir on February 22, 2024, 08:36:59 pm
So what is the deal with buoyancy and why hasn't it been included yet? If it is a technical issue what are the major problems? Is it going to wait for boats?
Generally, DF development follows feature-sets related to some kind of player interactivity. Since there haven't been any features relating to buoyancy, it hasn't been touched. Boats are definitely going to require it, so expect a (possibly excessively) detailed buoyancy simulation at that time. Doing things this way means that every system gets created purposefully, reducing the chances that something needs to be repeatedly replaced. This does have the unfortunate effect of the simulation being perpetually somewhat lopsided, with seemingly obvious features absent.
Looking at the development-outline, I am like 95% sure "boats" is going to be the thing that triggers some kind of huge fluid-rewrite. Oceans of beer and hot-air balloons and whatever other semi-related features would then be on the table.
Post by: Digganob on March 06, 2024, 02:28:41 am
Post by: PatrikLundell on March 06, 2024, 11:45:11 am
My guess is that the current status is something along the lines of "looks reasonable and something we'd like to do at some point, but no ETA".
Post by: DPh Kraken on March 07, 2024, 06:02:43 pm
Will caste requirements for different jobs/positions be introduced to civilizations at some point? This could have a lot of potential for modding, specifically. For instance, an insectoid civilization which has worker miners and soldier soldiers, or an amazonian kingdom which only allows females into the military and positions of power. I know this wouldn't be top priority, but is it on the easier side of things, or is it relegated to the "far future," if at all planned?
For positions of leadership, there's [GENDER], [ALLOWED_CLASS] and [ALLOWED_CREATURE], which should be effective for purposes of caste restriction. Restricting professions can be essentially hacked in on the creature level (by nerfing those skill gains to the ground), but there's no similar tokens to divide labor on a societal level. Could be very interesting to see where modding tools and generated cultures go.
Post by: Digganob on March 10, 2024, 11:36:52 am
Will caste requirements for different jobs/positions be introduced to civilizations at some point? This could have a lot of potential for modding, specifically. For instance, an insectoid civilization which has worker miners and soldier soldiers, or an amazonian kingdom which only allows females into the military and positions of power. I know this wouldn't be top priority, but is it on the easier side of things, or is it relegated to the "far future," if at all planned?
For positions of leadership, there's [GENDER], [ALLOWED_CLASS] and [ALLOWED_CREATURE], which should be effective for purposes of caste restriction. Restricting professions can be essentially hacked in on the creature level (by nerfing those skill gains to the ground), but there's no similar tokens to divide labor on a societal level. Could be very interesting to see where modding tools and generated cultures go.
Yes, leadership restrictions are pretty useful, it's true. I used the caste restriction in a mod I made so that only the biggest goblins got to be leaders. But profession restrictions would really be next level.
Post by: FrankVill on March 14, 2024, 05:22:18 pm
A few days ago I began to imagine what would happen if Dwarf Fortress included the concept of evolution (ancient bones prove that the dwarf descended from the orangutan and things like that). It doesn't seem crazy given that DF aspires to be a very complete world simulator. But I see it as logical that you have not considered it because it is not something that is usually dealt with in the fantasy genre (books, movies...).
Have you ever thought about the possibility of treating evolution? If so, what reasons led you to rule it out?
Are there other similar things that you have considered and definitively ruled out for compelling reasons, such as technical, complexity or time limitations?
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on March 14, 2024, 05:34:37 pm
Does that mean that there’s going to be a product placement partnership with PepsiCo?
Post by: stoyang on March 14, 2024, 06:04:44 pm
1. Given the recent tooling changes around how you build DF (eg version control, multiple branches) what do you think has changed in the way you think about development thanks to this new tooling? What has it enabled in your mind that you previously thought might be too difficult to tackle?
2. Follow up on the tooling, what other interesting tools or patterns have you considered or looked into? what about unit tests? fuzz testing? c++20 concepts?
Post by: bratok on March 20, 2024, 06:59:12 am
1. When map export function from Legends Mode will be aviable?
2. Will there be updates regarding the NPCs and their social component? For example, I noticed such a thing that characters can serve in the same unit for many years, and still remain strangers to each other. Or, after a battle, the wounded are simply abandoned, and first of all everyone goes to get drunk in a bar. In general, the behavior of the characters in some places is not entirely logical, and I would like to know if you are planning any updates in this regard.
Thanks!
Post by: eerr on March 21, 2024, 09:46:04 pm
Would a numeric representation of score fit in adventure mode?
Post by: Inarius on March 22, 2024, 05:27:38 am
Here, there is no goal. So how to measure anything ?
The only thing you can measure is your skill evolution.
Post by: Beag on March 22, 2024, 05:09:04 pm
2. Years ago, ThreeToe's storys hinted as magical corruption being a possibility in the myth and magic arc, will that be coming in the new small updates format?
3. Will the player adventurer in the coming updates possibly gain paths to having more magical abilities like the necromancers and undead lieutenants have?
4. In some generated worlds will it be possible for the player to invoke a deity's powers by talking to them if they are in their favor enough? Possibility with the risk of incurring their wrath and getting cursed?
5. Will new divine curses be on the table for the coming updates?
6. When will the new forum be set up? I am of the understanding this may be one of the last future of the fortress question responses this site has.
Post by: LanLan on March 25, 2024, 03:21:17 am
Also, when you referred to 'killing the Big Wait dead,' does that mean updates are gonna be bringing features that would've otherwise been separated into arcs into the game independently of those arcs, or are the arcs still going to be a thing, but we'll see features of those arcs rolled out bit-by-bit?
Finally, will there be an option to auto-generate an adventure mode character?
Post by: Silverwing235 on March 25, 2024, 06:25:04 am
1. In addition to healing potions will there be any other types of potions?
2. Years ago, ThreeToe's storys hinted as magical corruption being a possibility in the myth and magic arc, will that be coming in the new small updates format?
3. Will the player adventurer in the coming updates possibly gain paths to having more magical abilities like the necromancers and undead lieutenants have?
4. In some generated worlds will it be possible for the player to invoke a deity's powers by talking to them if they are in their favor enough? Possibility with the risk of incurring their wrath and getting cursed?
5. Will new divine curses be on the table for the coming updates?
6. When will the new forum be set up? I am of the understanding this may be one of the last future of the fortress question responses this site has.
WRT#6: This is new to me; I'd very much like a source on that, myself?
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 25, 2024, 12:08:22 pm
snip
2. Years ago, ThreeToe's storys hinted as magical corruption being a possibility in the myth and magic arc, will that be coming in the new small updates format?
3. Will the player adventurer in the coming updates possibly gain paths to having more magical abilities like the necromancers and undead lieutenants have?
4. In some generated worlds will it be possible for the player to invoke a deity's powers by talking to them if they are in their favor enough? Possibility with the risk of incurring their wrath and getting cursed?
5. Will new divine curses be on the table for the coming updates?
6. When will the new forum be set up? I am of the understanding this may be one of the last future of the fortress question responses this site has.
Quote from: adventuremode question
3. You can already raise companions up as intelligent undead by seizing the secrets of life and death for yourself, and control them in your party in ver 47.05's tactical swapping mode, i imagine this transfers over to 50. naturally. More powers relies on their implementation, and whether its a role that you could possibly attain (like being the head of a monastary, hypothetically getting some boon from that) but i don't think anything's been explicity said on that front since.
Quote from: magic-arc questions
2. Its been a long time since the stories, but from a general compilation of Toady's replies i think it could be highly circumstantial to the kind of fantasy worm-man world that is generated per the fantasy setup scaler. You could have a world more akin to DnD where you are simply tired and need some time to pass/run out of mana or the like or like you say, more hard consequences like the tree-lady where your life and freedom is on the line. That's my impression anyway.
4. Again a little bit of abstraction between the magic arc and the adventure arc which aren't to my knowledge riding inside the same carriage from their long journey across the big wait. Though you can already pray in 47.05's adventure mode and invoke the wrath of the god by testing their patience at the dice atop of shrines.
5. New would imply 'more', but toady has expressed a interest of curbing the turtling via placing curses before in FotF, so you might be in luck getting a reply if the brothers have cooked up any new ways to punish the player.
Quote from: forum question
6. Like silverwing id like to know if this is has a source. It would be a pity because a lot of history resides here including important milestones of folly (the most infamous events of DF, shaping its development history like the infamous mermaid farm) and fort design secrets and science, as well as DFFD mod-page urls. The steam forums serve as a adequate but its not quite as orderly or technical, being very new.
Post by: Inarius on March 26, 2024, 03:35:27 am
The game has changed, anyway. We have to accept it, it's for the best, for everybody.
Post by: voliol on March 26, 2024, 05:50:38 am
Post by: brewer bob on March 26, 2024, 08:45:17 am
30:05 Forums, Future of the fortress and dev pages (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziFO-VSQjw&t=1805s)
Post by: LuuBluum on March 26, 2024, 11:55:15 am
Post by: Toady One on March 27, 2024, 10:41:47 am
Post by: Putnam on March 27, 2024, 01:46:52 pm
@eerr : I think not. Because in most roguelike game, there is a "goal", and numeric representation are here to tell you how much of this you've done.
Here, there is no goal. So how to measure anything ?
The only thing you can measure is your skill evolution.
Roguelikes have scores. It's actually kind of an important part of the Roguelike experience to have scores? Nethack has a score, Angband has a score, and you can't get more Roguelike than those. Even if you look at modern stuff, Noita, Slay the Spire, the Binding of Isaac all have score.
...But all those games are actually structured like a roguelike, while DF adventure mode is kinda more wearing the skin of one, at least for now. But, like, Minecraft is much the same way, and also has a score. So I guess my point is, ain't nothing wrong with a score, necessarily.
Asking more technical rather than game content related questions:
1. Given the recent tooling changes around how you build DF (eg version control, multiple branches) what do you think has changed in the way you think about development thanks to this new tooling? What has it enabled in your mind that you previously thought might be too difficult to tackle?
2. Follow up on the tooling, what other interesting tools or patterns have you considered or looked into? what about unit tests? fuzz testing? c++20 concepts?
I've used C++20 concepts semi-recently but GCC generally has a few problems with certain C++20 features, especially if we want to let people run the game on older Linux distros (we're incompatible with Ubuntu 18, which is actually kind of a disaster). I've written things with views on reflex then had to replace them with other stuff a few times already, haha.
Post by: StrawBarrel on March 28, 2024, 04:22:01 am
It's good to hear that the some keyboard controls will come back in the future. I've been playing 50.12 classic and I miss the keyboard controls. I liked viewing workshops with q, designating with keyboard, and k (I think) to view tiles and units.So I'm dipping back into DF, and haven't been able to parse a clear answer to this out of the previous FotF replies:
What is the state of keyboard control in DF and what plans are there for it going forward?
Here's the latest from Toady. You can read a little bit before this quote in this thread for some context (if you've already read this, sorry haha!).Keyboard stuff: There was some confusion over in the linked suggestions thread above and elsewhere about hotkeys etc., and generally I should clarify the different pieces of keyboard support and where we are at:
For hotkeys, I'll have to move some of them, since I can't assume we have a numberpad and wasd has to camp out over on the left side of the keyboard forever, but hotkeys for opening and using menus seems pretty easy to support. We do have to show them to the player somehow. Tooltips are one typical way, and there could be some layer that draws them under buttons as well (I guess some games have done, like, holding 'alt' for this kind of thing.)
For designations, I think the wasd+mouse combination can handle some things that people aren't giving it credit for (long tunnels etc.), and camera keys also work for doing up/down staircases. But we've listened to the feedback here, and a cursor mode is easy to support, since most of the code is sitting around for it and we already have cursor graphics. We just have to make sure new people don't get stuck in there.
For menu navigation, missing the numberpad and our old (sometimes inconsistent and annoying) methods of scrolling put us in a bind in some cases. Focus and button use etc. probably can't be the same between the various menus, because they are quite different from each other. Though I think, as with the Classic display and adventure mode, the main issue here is time. I see the pathway through for Classic/adventure stuff though, so it's easy to commit to doing those in as timely a fashion as possible after launch if that's the way we go. With a few of the menus, I'm not sure how much work it'd take.
We read through all of the comments and take them seriously, even the negative ones - there's no need to be rude or assume the worst. We're going to try to address issues and we think things are going to turn out well, but everything just takes time.
Don't expect it immediately and don't expect it to be as comprehensive as it was. Those of us who cared dropped the ball because Toady didn't think anyone did.
I think I read somewhere else in the thread that the key-bindings will be different which is completely fine. I'm just primarily hoping for additional keyboard features to supplement the mouse controls.
I also hope in the future there will be a way to view the tile attributes (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Tile_attributes) again.
Post by: Vaelwyn on March 28, 2024, 07:49:16 am
Hello Toady !
Hope you're doing well, very exited for the release of adventure mode on steam next month !
I have two questions for you:
1. I've been doing some research on the dwarf fortress wiki in preparation for the release and came across a list of power goals. It was very interesting to read, I understand that list is quite old and no longer up to date, but do these power goals still reflect your long-term vision of the game ?
2. More specifically, one of these goals mention the posibility for the live adventurer to have a wife, children and play our heir after death or retirement. It would leed to some amazing stories ! Is this feature still planed ?
I wish you all the best for the release of adventure mode, cheers ! :D
Post by: ShiraKage on March 28, 2024, 09:28:57 am
Will chopped off limbs have different sprites instead of classic ''flesh and bone'' sprites? Additionally, will we see visible injuries in characters' sprites without looking at the portraits? Seeing missing arms or legs would be cool! And minimal injuries wouldn't be shown at all or shown as a single red dot on the sprite.
Also, When I was looking at creatures on wiki, I saw that Nightwings don't have tails even though dwarves like them for their long tails. I think the error is occured because one and only nightwing drawing has no tail (And apparently they have ''tail'' part in combat menu). Is it gonna be fixed?
About myth and magic update. We know that some myths create cursed races. In one myth, goblins were cursed dwarves because dwarves destroyed some object and the god cursed 1/3 of them and turned them into goblins. So, this changes will be seen in the game too? For example in that world dwarves call goblins ''cursed one'' or various things and goblins blame them etc.
About procedural dragons. Will they come soon or are you waiting for magic system to be implemented to the game? If I remember correctly, procedural dragons were about ''this one will breathe ice, this one breathe fire'' etc. but with the magic system, will they be intelligent, talk and use magic?
Thank you for your hardworks!!
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 29, 2024, 09:50:55 am
[snip]
2. More specifically, one of these goals mention the posibility for the live adventurer to have a wife, children and play our heir after death or retirement. It would leed to some amazing stories ! Is this feature still planed ?
To jump in on Toady's behalf and quickly answer that, I believe there are many such things regarding reproduction that had been planned that didn't exactly pan out as soon as intended within the arcs. For example, adventurers abandoning their predetermined asexuality currently implemented requires the controls to alter those preferences, moddability to keep it above-board for international censors, but also more consistency with existing appearances that will come with the adventure mode portraits.
If I return from a long journey to my homestead in the haunted woods and find that little mc'urist is now sporting freckles, red goblin eyes, and two buck teeth bearing little resemblence to the sweet dwarven child i left with his mother, i might conclude that they were took by bogeymen or a disguised goblin and need to go find them again. Its the pitfall of making, graphics that suddenly correction of the graphics that could be randomized in ascii might be incredibly relevant (but also harder to translate into ascii beyond detailed consistency, which the game does well enough already).
Post by: falcc on March 29, 2024, 04:42:53 pm
If you assign some artifact gear from your fort to adventure mode characters in your military and then return to adventure mode, is there any sort of transfer of ownership?
Will anyone show up to look for it from your fort's civilization in play, or are they cool with it as long as you're bringing glory and death with your indestructible leather pants?
What if you sign up under another leader or found a faction in the wilderness, will anybody come to press that claim for your old citizens?
Is there any different kind of response if the artifact was gifted to the fort vs someone's family heirloom?
For that matter, are there any plans for dwarves whose family artifacts have been traded away to other civilizations to start scheming for their illicit recovery?
Post by: Eric Blank on March 29, 2024, 07:13:45 pm
If an item thats taken is claimed by anyone, theyll probably pursue acquiring it, but that doesnt happen to citizens in fort mode right now. They do want their stuff back if you steal it in adventure mode. Sometimes you can get away with robbing someone holding an artifact in a non-lethal fistfight, by grabbing the object in wrestling and jumping or moving away from them and retain possession of it. Easier than wrestling it from their grip if you have low skill or strength. Theyll dislike you but wont be able to do anything besides maybe attack you next time they see you.
Post by: kontako on March 30, 2024, 08:28:08 pm
Would you please consider the following questions:
Is the current cordial treatment of intelligent-undead and experiments by the living-aligned and red-blooded as intended, or will they begin to be expelled by societies (with particular ethics) in the continuation of villains work?
Is there a difference in how demi-god characters will play / be treated if their patron is the target of a non-reformed or reformed religion? (i.e. with or without organised temples and priests)
Are there no item retrieval missions if a demi-god character is created at year 1 (due to no relics having been yet created in world-gen history), or might there be new collectables?
Thanks.
Post by: Toady One on April 02, 2024, 02:42:01 pm
Quote from: voliol
Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?
Yeah, this was the hope, once it's complete. It's a good way for us to introduce new people for fort mode, new companions and adversaries and others in adv mode as well. Should be good fun, but won't be in immediately in April.
Quote from: Ziusudra
How much are the other controls changing and are any of the current ones are merging?
We've kept most of the current keys. I don't remember any counterexamples off the top of my head. Since we're not using WASD, the keys weren't exploded like they were in fort mode, so most everything could remain intact.
Quote from: Button
Hey Toady! I assume by the time you read this the bug tracker will be fixed; but in future, who should we contact/how should we let somebody know when the bug tracker is broken?
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8528641#msg8528641
Quote from: Inevtable Demon mom
Hello! I watched Blind's recent video on "What to expect from Adventure mode and Magic healing!" and got very interested in the latter part. While at first I was very unsure of implementing a sort of magical healing that could revert otherwise permanent injuries, I started to think about what would be an interesting implementation that could fall in line with the feel of DF, so this got me thinking:
- Is this new way of healing conceptualized like a mage casting a healing spell on an injuried person or more like an alchemist or a traditional healer rubbing a combination of weeds and other materials on the injury?
- Will the new healing method serve as a single multipurpose heal-it-all solution or will there be specific (hopefully randomized for each world!) requirements and quirks for each sort of injury? For example, if you're trying to heal torn ligaments the material/other requirements are somewhat different from if you're trying to heal nerve damage. In this case, will there be different recipes for these different kinds of healing? Will scholars in fortress mode be able to discover these recipes by doing research and discussing with other smartpants who come visit your fort?
- How viable are you planning to make having an adventurer be dedicated to medicine? Would be very cool to have yet another different niche to specialize in the coming adventure mode.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8528843#msg8528843
Yeah, it's certainly going to be randomized on a per-world basis, and the particulars are just going to come in over time. There'll probably be some powerful effects in the beginning and then it'll become diversified with some weaker stuff as we spend some time with it. Relating it to scholarship in fort mode is a myth/magic goal but that won't happen at first, and hospitals won't see anything for a bit, but eventually they'll notice the new possibilities ha ha. Integrating fort mode generally with magic is exciting and challenging and right in front of us.
For dedicated medical adventurers, who aren't just party members helping out, I see the basic issue there just being that there aren't a lot of randomly wounded/sick people out in the world. Naturally, we'd like to make life miserable for everybody, randomly, but that'll take some doing.
Quote from: Salvadaddy
Hello, Toady, have you come up with any new monsters or creatures randomly as you've been working on the adventure mode stuff?
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8529607#msg8529607
Pillbo: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8531922#msg8531922
Nothing new yet! It has mainly been interface and graphics and audio, and we aren't even caught up with all the existing features. But there will be something to play! (as seen in the combat video) And new monsters should start coming as we go through our demigod/dungeon/temple roadmap - this won't be complete in April's beta either, but will be coming in as the update comes out of beta.
Quote from: voliol
When the biomes become sphere-aligned primarily, instead of being Good/Evil/Wild, what are your thoughts on the "surroundings" descriptor? I.e the one that says "calm", "haunted", "joyous wilds", etc. on the embark screen. Some sphere-alignments, like a land of thunder, don't map clearly to any of the existing descriptions. But at the same time, having descriptions for all spheres, or combinations of spheres, seems like it could be a lot. Both to develop, but also for the player embarking. E.g. if a biome is "rumbling" or "chaotic", how difficult is that?
Those adjectives are particularly linked to the three existing properties, so I imagine they'll get exploded. Musical timbre is an example of us kind of going expansive with a collection of adjectives along a bunch of related axes, and something similar could happen. I'm not sure adjectives will be sufficient though. Hopefully places will be interesting enough eventually to describe with a sentence or two ha ha.
Quote from: TheMarmot
Will alive demigods influence the name of the age? vampires and necromancers already influence it, along with werebeasts and other creatures.
I'm not sure if we'll get to tweaks to age names here before they undergo more serious changes.
Quote from: Afroman726
Hello! Im very excited for the map rewrite and was wondering what sort of plans there are to expand the surface level in fort mode. I understand when you embark you can change the grid size but currently you have to load all Z levels below the surface. Has there been any thoughts to having 2 embark selections? One for surface and one for the underground? I can envision having a 25x25 surface fortress sprawling with hamlets, houses and temples while having a 3x3 underground area to mine out and explore.
Caldfir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8531106#msg8531106
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8531130#msg8531130
I think the replies covered this one! It's definitely one of the things we want to accomplish.
Quote from: DPh Kraken
1. The portraits look like they're set up to automatically apply the hundred-or-so raw colors for worn items and eyes, but I haven't seen them applied to any previews. Will there be palette support for layered graphics? Any new uses for palettes planned, like doing unit-colored clothing as a palleted graphic?
2. Adventure crafting is minimal without modded reactions, and thus end up running into unexpected limitations. Is it likely we will see any bugfixes for typical reaction pitfalls, like unwearable gloves or stacked/dimensioned reagents (bone, bars, globs, etc) in the April update?
1. Yeah, that's in now, generally. You can define multiple custom palettes to use for it, and also use the default one.
2. No, not for the April update. But April isn't the full update. I'm not sure how things are going to go as we head for the full release. There's going to be a lot coming at me.
Quote from: aSpatula66
Will human, elven, and goblin civilizations be given hairstyling options now that we're getting procedural portraits? Also, why don't elf sprites show their facial hair, and goblin sprites don't show their hair or facial hair? I did notice though that the goblin portrait examples showed hair, but not beards. Elves and goblins do have beards, so the sprites should probably show that.
I've added hairstyles for humans and elves. Goblins are in an odd position since we have hair but they don't follow the existing styles, so everybody is still bald. No idea about elf beards. We have one drawn, but no style images for it, though I think elves will style them now in text.
Quote from: saharo
Any plans to make water a continuous requirement for farming (and other crafts)?
Several DF crafts depend - in their real-life counterparts - on having water: farming, brewing, cooking, dyeing, smithing, breeding, and I'm sure I'm missing some.
While df-irrigation is used to create farmable soil, farmers don't water their plants.
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8531554#msg8531554
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8531820#msg8531820
The replies handled this - we certainly want water to be used in some more places. Using it absolutely everywhere might be too much, just in terms of the amount of moving about or little cisterns or whatever that would need to be kept to keep the fort running, but adding a water requirement to several jobs would be fun I think. We might need some more water gathering methods before we jump too far into that though, to keep more biomes viable.
Quote from: Urist McSadist
Do you plan attempting an in fort market economy again in the foreseeable future?
Ha ha, sure, but I have no idea when.
Quote from: Pillbo
I was looking into why buoyancy isn't a thing in the game and I haven't been able to find a post from you on the subject since August 2007:QuoteThe new fluids invalidated most of the old code. Have water stop you when you jump into it so you don't go all the way down into the bottom is linked to density sink/float stuff, which I haven't done yet. I'm not sure what I'll get to. It'll either be done or get Req'd.
Other than that I saw lots of people make various comments about buoyancy being too hard, or implying you didn't want to implement it for some reason, but it's kinda hard to tell what is assumption, speculation, or accurate.
So what is the deal with buoyancy and why hasn't it been included yet? If it is a technical issue what are the major problems? Is it going to wait for boats?
Caldfir: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8532238#msg8532238
Yeah, it just hasn't come up strongly yet, as Caldfir says. Although I'm sure there'd be a few funny side effects currently, as with water pressure. I'm definitely pro buoyancy, and I imagine it'll come up with boats, yeah, though things are so stark we'll have to be careful. It seems unavoidable that it'll be the situation that adding a single coin to a boat at some tipping point will cause it to sink one tile deeper, suddenly flooding the entire ship and sinking it. It'll have to warn you about that. But if a dragon gets on board and the boat is all on fire and also sinks that would be amusing.
Post by: Toady One on April 02, 2024, 02:47:43 pm
Quote from: Digganob
Will caste requirements for different jobs/positions be introduced to civilizations at some point? This could have a lot of potential for modding, specifically. For instance, an insectoid civilization which has worker miners and soldier soldiers, or an amazonian kingdom which only allows females into the military and positions of power. I know this wouldn't be top priority, but is it on the easier side of things, or is it relegated to the "far future," if at all planned?
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8532449#msg8532449
DPh Kraken: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8532635#msg8532635
Digganob (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8532969#msg8532969
Yeah, it would be great if ant people worked correctly or were done at all in any way ha ha. This had always been sitting out at the entity rewrite, when we could start respecting more types of civilizations. Now that arcs are gone, it's more about the general vibe of how the magic stuff unfolds. It'll take a while for us to see how it's going to be.
Quote from: FrankVill
A few days ago I began to imagine what would happen if Dwarf Fortress included the concept of evolution (ancient bones prove that the dwarf descended from the orangutan and things like that). It doesn't seem crazy given that DF aspires to be a very complete world simulator. But I see it as logical that you have not considered it because it is not something that is usually dealt with in the fantasy genre (books, movies...).
Have you ever thought about the possibility of treating evolution? If so, what reasons led you to rule it out?
Are there other similar things that you have considered and definitively ruled out for compelling reasons, such as technical, complexity or time limitations?
Oh sure, we've thought about it because we like critters. There are several obstacles of course. We'd need a better genetic model and a better creature definition that can float some more, and of course in pre-world-gen and beyond it'd need to model selection and mutation and that's a whole giant can of worms. But there are little bits of it sitting around, like our terrible half-baked genetics stuff and the virtually unused breed concept that can handle appearance changes etc. It would be cool to get into different types of cats and dogs and then expand that outward for instance.
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
I was watching the interview with BlindIRL, and Tarn was talking about “weaponizing the Dew”.
Does that mean that there’s going to be a product placement partnership with PepsiCo?
ha ha we'd have to say no, but also have not been approached. but once we have proper non water/magma fluids, I'm sure the Dew mod would be the least of our worries.
Quote from: stoyang
1. Given the recent tooling changes around how you build DF (eg version control, multiple branches) what do you think has changed in the way you think about development thanks to this new tooling? What has it enabled in your mind that you previously thought might be too difficult to tackle?
2. Follow up on the tooling, what other interesting tools or patterns have you considered or looked into? what about unit tests? fuzz testing? c++20 concepts?
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8535067#msg8535067
I'll defer to Putnam's modern programming experience on #2 ha ha.
Generally, I think it's great to be able to work on a feature for a bit and then just leave it on ice and know the merge is probably gonna be not too bad. And it allowed us to do 50.12 while adventure mode was already in progress which was great. If there's just never a huge dead period again, and it looks like that's the case, that's pretty cool. And it's more natural to just mess with some idea on a branch.
Quote from: bratok
1. When map export function from Legends Mode will be aviable?
2. Will there be updates regarding the NPCs and their social component? For example, I noticed such a thing that characters can serve in the same unit for many years, and still remain strangers to each other. Or, after a battle, the wounded are simply abandoned, and first of all everyone goes to get drunk in a bar. In general, the behavior of the characters in some places is not entirely logical, and I would like to know if you are planning any updates in this regard.
1. I'm not sure, but it wants to come back! In terms of missing old features, adventure mode is the higher priority. But the missing bits of legends mode are not forgotten.
2. Lackluster and/or inventively negligent childcare is a frequent complaint. We're all for getting to this stuff. It has tended to get better over time.
Quote from: eerr
Historically, you've played roguelike games, where your score was tallied at the end of the game.
Would a numeric representation of score fit in adventure mode?
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8534399#msg8534399
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8535067#msg8535067
The original conception of Dwarf Fortress had an adv mode high score of course, but it's expanded out beyond that now. We've thought periodically about things like some sort of arena-type submode with contained map generation that could be good for us for testing algorithms but also provide a space for a quick dungeon dive. Scores could fit there, but even in that case the heavily procedural element gives the scores dubious meaning. It's possible though.
Quote from: Beag
1. In addition to healing potions will there be any other types of potions?
2. Years ago, ThreeToe's storys hinted as magical corruption being a possibility in the myth and magic arc, will that be coming in the new small updates format?
3. Will the player adventurer in the coming updates possibly gain paths to having more magical abilities like the necromancers and undead lieutenants have?
4. In some generated worlds will it be possible for the player to invoke a deity's powers by talking to them if they are in their favor enough? Possibility with the risk of incurring their wrath and getting cursed?
5. Will new divine curses be on the table for the coming updates?
6. When will the new forum be set up? I am of the understanding this may be one of the last future of the fortress question responses this site has.
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8534775#msg8534775
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8534805#msg8534805
1. Not at first, but we are approaching the oh yes indeed era.
2. Yeah, it's in the mythgen prototype as well. Side effects and downsides are part of the plan.
3. Yep, also part of the plan.
4. This sort of things should be in soon for the demigod type mode, and then be possible in the other modes as well with more or less effort.
5. Not sure! Gonna have a direct line to a deity in some cases and if it turns out like most roguelikes, they will be very upsettable.
6. We're still going to be hosting the forum ourselves, and the posts should all be imported and everything identicalish. Just going for https and to stave off the issue that risked the forum back in Feb/March.
Quote from: LanLan
When it comes to the healing methods you're implementing with the adventure mode release, how varied are they? Like, is it just a difference in ingredients, or are they going to distinguish between ingested/topical potions, and will healing sometimes have negative consequences?
Also, when you referred to 'killing the Big Wait dead,' does that mean updates are gonna be bringing features that would've otherwise been separated into arcs into the game independently of those arcs, or are the arcs still going to be a thing, but we'll see features of those arcs rolled out bit-by-bit?
Finally, will there be an option to auto-generate an adventure mode character?
At first, we'll probably be guided by existing implementation, which makes ingested (and spell-like interaction) more likely to start. Of course the game gets more interesting when you can just place whatever substance on yourself, and we already have the system for that (as with forgotten beast syndrome blood that rots bare feet), so that's an avenue that's not too hard to take.
I think it's inevitable that we'll still focus on things for periods of time, but we're trying not to make those periods "26 months" ha ha. But I also think we'll see a greater mixture of types of features. With version control, I think we'll also see some features baking for longer and then suddenly appearing, regardless of what sort of features have been trickling in at the same time.
No auto generate option yet though I was thinking about that this morning ha ha, since it really is quite a lot of work to make characters and we already have something similar in fort mode. But it won't be there initially. Would be cool to just be like "spin me up a 4 character party" and it gives you a varied group to approve.
Quote from: Vaelwyn
1. I've been doing some research on the dwarf fortress wiki in preparation for the release and came across a list of power goals. It was very interesting to read, I understand that list is quite old and no longer up to date, but do these power goals still reflect your long-term vision of the game ?
2. More specifically, one of these goals mention the posibility for the live adventurer to have a wife, children and play our heir after death or retirement. It would leed to some amazing stories ! Is this feature still planed ?
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8535260#msg8535260
1. Ha ha yeah I'd argue they were always very weird, maybe a little weirder than the game was going to attain, ha ha. But it's still not a terrible list mostly.
2. Yeah! Having relationships and families is definitely still a goal. Can't wait for your spouse to be like "it was inevitable." Or some pure half-authored half-proc cringe. It'll be great.
Quote from: ShiraKage
Will chopped off limbs have different sprites instead of classic ''flesh and bone'' sprites? Additionally, will we see visible injuries in characters' sprites without looking at the portraits? Seeing missing arms or legs would be cool! And minimal injuries wouldn't be shown at all or shown as a single red dot on the sprite.
Also, When I was looking at creatures on wiki, I saw that Nightwings don't have tails even though dwarves like them for their long tails. I think the error is occured because one and only nightwing drawing has no tail (And apparently they have ''tail'' part in combat menu). Is it gonna be fixed?
About myth and magic update. We know that some myths create cursed races. In one myth, goblins were cursed dwarves because dwarves destroyed some object and the god cursed 1/3 of them and turned them into goblins. So, this changes will be seen in the game too? For example in that world dwarves call goblins ''cursed one'' or various things and goblins blame them etc.
About procedural dragons. Will they come soon or are you waiting for magic system to be implemented to the game? If I remember correctly, procedural dragons were about ''this one will breathe ice, this one breathe fire'' etc. but with the magic system, will they be intelligent, talk and use magic?
Missing arms and legs in sprites for the layered creatures (dwarves/humans/etc.) are just a matter of data entry at this point. Better chopped off limbs would be cool but we haven't drawn anything. I remember in my combat video looking around for the severed guts, could have had a dedicated sprite ha ha ha. Always more to do!
Huh I wonder how they have a tail in the combat menu if they don't have a tail? Anyway, it's better when things are consistent. Not sure when we'd get to it.
This is the hope! It'll lag behind the technical implementation since it has to start there.
Procedural dragons were about implementing the txt file format, so I imagine this could wait to see how any scripting changes work out. We're hoping to experiment with that at some point.
Quote from: falcc
If you assign some artifact gear from your fort to adventure mode characters in your military and then return to adventure mode, is there any sort of transfer of ownership?
Will anyone show up to look for it from your fort's civilization in play, or are they cool with it as long as you're bringing glory and death with your indestructible leather pants?
What if you sign up under another leader or found a faction in the wilderness, will anybody come to press that claim for your old citizens?
Is there any different kind of response if the artifact was gifted to the fort vs someone's family heirloom?
For that matter, are there any plans for dwarves whose family artifacts have been traded away to other civilizations to start scheming for their illicit recovery?
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8535304#msg8535304
Hmm, I think all fort mode assignments retain the equipment as community property, with the player freely able to unassign, so all the artifact claims would still be on that basis if you start playing again. It'd require a more explicit gift system, or you could appoint the adventurer to a position and then make the artifact a symbol maybe.
I don't recall off the top of my head if anybody pursues artifact claims now but villains? There could be a quest to get it back if it's marked as lost but I don't recall if NPCs take those up, even in world gen. There was some work in that direction but I don't remember how far it went.
The gift/heirloom status does matter generally. Factions only set up quests/etc. for stuff that belongs to them, rather than an individual citizen. If the individual citizen gets villain status, they'll also try to get their artifact back in certain contexts (like the artifact heist), and also in worldgen, but I don't think it made it to adv mode.
This was all part of the delayed villain stuff which is now fair to pursue in the near term of course! Once the beta dust is settled and the full basic adv update is out. Finishing the elements of the villains release means all the artifact pursuit questions being answered in the affirmative, I think. Artifact movement and claims and grabbing was a simple traditional glue to hold a lot of it together. But we got delayed, and now we're arriving back, with all the magic/army/etc. stuff mixed in.
Quote from: kontako
Is the current cordial treatment of intelligent-undead and experiments by the living-aligned and red-blooded as intended, or will they begin to be expelled by societies (with particular ethics) in the continuation of villains work?
Is there a difference in how demi-god characters will play / be treated if their patron is the target of a non-reformed or reformed religion? (i.e. with or without organised temples and priests)
Are there no item retrieval missions if a demi-god character is created at year 1 (due to no relics having been yet created in world-gen history), or might there be new collectables?
Yeah, we have some relevant ethics, so it should come up. Handling the social side of things broadly has always been a part of myth/magic, and it's certainly a little weird now for everybody to be so chill with the living dead especially. Experiments are also pretty terrifying though in a world with various animal people it all kind of goes together (but some humans should be afraid of animal people too at first probably, depending on how the world is.)
Once we get to improving the temple relic quests it'll likely make a difference yeah. At first there won't be one.
There are likely to be some additional primordial options along the lines of the existing titan shrines and vaults, since those are pretty rough.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on April 02, 2024, 06:51:40 pm
I have a question:
With regards to the new forums, are you planning on just updating bay12forums.com to use https (i.e. https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php), or are you planning on moving the forums so that they are under bay12games.com (e.g. http://www.bay12games.com/smf/index.php or http://www.bay12games.com/forums/index.php) in order to take advantage of the fact that bay12games.com is already set up to use https? If the latter, Is there anything that'll be done to avoid breaking links on other websites (I know you can just have the main page of the old forums redirect to the new forums, but can the server be set up so that, if someone tries to directly access a specific post on the old forums, it'll automatically redirect them to the same post on the new forums)?
Now, if you don't mind, I see something that needs to go in the "Out of context and funny quotes thre...
Damnit, Bumber!
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 03, 2024, 01:30:34 pm
Post by: Buttery_Mess on April 12, 2024, 07:46:51 am
Is Dwarf Fortress officially now just Dwarf Fortress or is it still officially Slaves to Armok God of Blood Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress, or is the latter just for the free ASCII version?
Will you ever publish any more crayon art? Do you ever bust the crayons out when conceptualising new features, creatures or objects?
I feel like the crayon art was a part of the extended aesthetic of Dwarf Fortress and I kind of miss it.
Post by: Inarius on April 12, 2024, 07:51:08 am
Post by: Silverwing235 on April 12, 2024, 08:28:43 am
Can't speak for Toady, but I think i remember him saying crayon drawing would end when Steam Release
Yeah, more of AIUI, a "side-hobby that ran into demand and supply issues" kind of thing.
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 13, 2024, 02:20:50 am
Post by: Inarius on April 14, 2024, 10:32:40 am
Post by: Rumrusher on April 15, 2024, 02:36:43 am
Post by: TranquilRiverGiant on April 15, 2024, 05:36:03 am
Very excited for Adventure mode to come out. Hoorah! :)
Post by: Rumrusher on April 16, 2024, 12:26:13 am
Are there plans to implement schisms / civil wars as part of the villains arc? It would make sense that parts of the kingdom may rebel against a usurper. It may also help prevent snowballing in worldgen. It would also be interesting if the different sides had opposing preferences, like blue vs red clothing or cow symbols vs eagle symbols, different religious sects...so the kicker to this the insurrection aspect of world sim/gen does lead to this but I also don't think this prevents snowballing as one sub-faction who made a peace treaty with one faction could get overthrown by another sub-faction who could just go back to conquering the world again, you kinda don't see this in fort mode as you're playing an hive mind controlling a small outpost miles away from the politics and back stabbings, but in adv mode if you ask the local nobles about the political powers and what not they will talk about the different parties vying for control of that civ.
Very excited for Adventure mode to come out. Hoorah! :)
Post by: TranquilRiverGiant on April 16, 2024, 02:35:07 am
so the kicker to this the insurrection aspect of world sim/gen does lead to this but I also don't think this prevents snowballing as one sub-faction who made a peace treaty with one faction could get overthrown by another sub-faction who could just go back to conquering the world again, you kinda don't see this in fort mode as you're playing an hive mind controlling a small outpost miles away from the politics and back stabbings, but in adv mode if you ask the local nobles about the political powers and what not they will talk about the different parties vying for control of that civ.
I guess there's a difference in my mind between a schism and an insurrection being that the latter doesn't lead to fragmentation of the civilization, it just leads to one sub-faction leading the whole, while the former does lead to the fragmentation of the civilization into multiple new civilizations. I'm mostly curious about the former then, and I think it would prevent snowballing via a fragmentation. Just to clarify.
Post by: Rumrusher on April 16, 2024, 06:44:56 pm
so if I remember an insurrection kicks out the ruling group of folks while the inhabitants the population fodder just stay the same, it usually leads to a whole lot of deaths on either side but the main mass of the people under them don't really change. it usually when another civ outside of the internal civ comes invading when folks start bailing and even then that also causes the natural population of inhabitants to just switch alliances.so the kicker to this the insurrection aspect of world sim/gen does lead to this but I also don't think this prevents snowballing as one sub-faction who made a peace treaty with one faction could get overthrown by another sub-faction who could just go back to conquering the world again, you kinda don't see this in fort mode as you're playing an hive mind controlling a small outpost miles away from the politics and back stabbings, but in adv mode if you ask the local nobles about the political powers and what not they will talk about the different parties vying for control of that civ.
I guess there's a difference in my mind between a schism and an insurrection being that the latter doesn't lead to fragmentation of the civilization, it just leads to one sub-faction leading the whole, while the former does lead to the fragmentation of the civilization into multiple new civilizations. I'm mostly curious about the former then, and I think it would prevent snowballing via a fragmentation. Just to clarify.
though this feels like someone attacking to raze a place which scatters the whole populace, then goes in and captures the land later.
also given how the game works entities that branch off the main entity makes a copy of the main entity raw data so those fragmented civs still behave like the main civ they branched off so that just snowballs in a different way.
you end up with a bunch of outcast civs that usually get pick up by bandit groups to terrorize the land or reforming into nomadic group to roam the land... or try to resettle in the same/different spot or some other world gen/sim mechanic I don't know off the hand that happens. any way I found the thing that prevents snowballing is figuring out how the battles are won and just beef up the defenses of the weaker civs so that the one that tries to attack a bunch ends up getting cooked.
Post by: Lemunde on April 17, 2024, 05:11:23 am
hmm having now thought about this if premium adv mode is getting a soundtrack is the classic build of adv mode going to stay silent or is there going to be like a toadyone original adv mode classic track for that also?
To add a suggestion onto this, it might be fun to add lo-fi chiptune versions of the songs to classic. Understandable if that might be too much work.
Post by: Rumrusher on April 17, 2024, 06:48:12 am
hmm kinda like toady strumming it a bit more than chiptunes, like lo-fi chiptunes doesn't really gel with the vibes with rest of classic's soundtracks... of 2 songs.hmm having now thought about this if premium adv mode is getting a soundtrack is the classic build of adv mode going to stay silent or is there going to be like a toadyone original adv mode classic track for that also?
To add a suggestion onto this, it might be fun to add lo-fi chiptune versions of the songs to classic. Understandable if that might be too much work.
...oh yeah happy birthday toady
Post by: Eric Blank on April 17, 2024, 04:32:19 pm
Did you get any nice presents?
Post by: DPh Kraken on April 17, 2024, 09:35:22 pm
The adventure mode OST is fire (my complements to the chefs), but I checked the raws and didn't find any tokens for it. It looks like the playing logic is hardcoded (due to the dynamic mixing), will we be able to add our own music and sounds to adventure mode eventually?
Post by: dikbutdagrate on April 17, 2024, 09:59:17 pm
Do doors play different sounds when they're opened in adventure mode, depending on the material the doors are made out of?
Interesting if true. But if the answer to that question is "yes", do "soap doors" specifically have their own sound effect?
And if the answer to that question is also "yes" ... then "why?" And then where did you even get the sound?!
Did you and/or someone else actually try to make a door out of actual soap, just like smooshed together, and then have Three-Toe open it, while Putnam sat and recorded it with a directional mic? Because I'd have mad respect for that.
I'm stuck on macos until Friday, so I can't attempt any experimental verification of any strange soap noises until then.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 18, 2024, 09:42:09 pm
The sound effects in the soap door folder do not sound like what I'd expect a soap door to sound like at all. But ive never seen a piece of soap big enough to make a door, so...
I'd be more concerned about the BONE door sound effects.
Post by: dikbutdagrate on April 19, 2024, 08:37:04 pm
Oh my god they DO play different sounds!
The sound effects in the soap door folder do not sound like what I'd expect a soap door to sound like at all. But ive never seen a piece of soap big enough to make a door, so...
I'd be more concerned about the BONE door sound effects.
The door knob could be made from a nice calceneus bone. Although a push-pull kind of door might prefer a hip bone from some variety of creature, which would probably be fantastic.
Not sure about the bulk of the door? Buckets of KFC could come in handy, but that's pretty gross.
Post by: lingaic on April 20, 2024, 06:43:00 am
and the multi-view implemented in ASCII somehow.
(http://i.imgur.com/zwymD.png)
"The simple and clean looks of ASCII with distinct creature graphics"
Post by: tsallast on April 20, 2024, 01:55:26 pm
P.S Adventure mode so far is a joy to play!
Post by: Enemjay on April 21, 2024, 11:26:33 am
Post by: DPh Kraken on April 21, 2024, 12:44:15 pm
With the upcoming map-rewrite, do you plan to include exclusively subterranean civilizations that might fulfill the roles similar to dark elves or dark dwarves? If so, would these be distinct races, or would they simply be elven and dwarven civilizations whose inhabitants possess malevolent personality traits (like goblins do)?
One of the ideas mentioned with the myth generator was generating variants of existing creatures with mythic properties. That way you could have not just your dark dwarves and dark elves, but dark humans, dark gorlaks (truly a fall from grace!) and whatever other raw-defined creatures in your world get any number of thematic prefixes.
The way that creatures are set up currently, having more goblin-like personalities would partly be done on a creature level and not just a societal one. Having more cultural variance between different civilizations of the same race would be cool, but if their society is organized around a mythic attribute (in this case evil and darkness) then the prefix would allow for the player to better distinguish between a "dark dwarven fortress" and a "dwarven fortress".
Post by: Egan_BW on April 21, 2024, 02:39:50 pm
Post by: Yal on April 23, 2024, 02:05:25 am
I noticed some portraits are inconsistent with the world sprites for dwarves - usually this is seen in hair color. Is it just that shades like "saffron" are yet to get dwarf portraits & will in the future, or is the system intended to work by approximating an array of in-text hair colors to, say, a single off-white?
Post by: dathin on April 23, 2024, 12:58:10 pm
Post by: Doorkeeper on April 23, 2024, 01:12:12 pm
Can the creature graphics in ASCII mode come back in future versions?
and multi-view?
Creature graphics mod support for classic is already there, so is multiple z-level view if that's what you're referring to. Classic version = Steam version w/o official sprites & sound/music; anything you can mod for steam, you should be able to mod on classic. At least that should be the case. If there's a specific graphics set you're waiting for that hasn't been updated yet for the current version, then that's on the graphic creator. Granted graphics modding was expanded for steam version so understandably it's gonna take more time for creators to update their graphics from pre-steam to post-steam.
Any news on the Mac version? 😢
From Feb:
Quote from: Doren IHello Toady and thanks for this wonderful game. I have been wondering if there was any word on a Mac release for the Steam version?No additional word! I'm stuck in adventure land with a deadline. Still need a few computers. Linux being done theoretically means the hardest part is over, hopefully.
Mac will be back once adv mode is done
upd: mixed up steam = classic
Post by: dikbutdagrate on April 23, 2024, 03:38:12 pm
Will there ever be modding support for implementing things like firedamp? Blackdamp, whitedamp, etc? "Although, the better question is, whether the current mining mechanic is complete or not?
Firedamp is any flammable gas found in coal mines, typically coalbed methane.
It is particularly found in areas where the coal is bituminous.
The gas accumulates in pockets in the coal and adjacent strata and when they are penetrated the release can trigger explosions.
Historically, if such a pocket was highly pressurized, it was termed a "bag of foulness".
Basically, support for letting gas spawn and then linger. Custom gas evaporates very quickly, which is problematic for certain modding endeavors.
Goody towers lean close to something approaching a natural mining hazard, but obviously they are very much their own thing.
I could understand maybe wanting to shrug off adding in better gas simulation support until way off in the far future. Like, I get that.
Been having a craving recently for adding in some neat puzzles, in terms of the game's mining logistics, and figured I'd ask. Apologies if the future of gas and the core mining gameplay wheel has been addressed in a previous post already.
Thanks again for your time Toad.
Edit: grammar, appended second question
Post by: aSpatula66 on April 23, 2024, 05:45:23 pm
Additionally, I've noticed that NPCs never wear any headwear except for masks and face veils and never wear loincloths or thongs.
This is new since the steam release and I assume it was intentionally added to reduce clutter but it is a bit odd and makes kobolds always have bad thoughts for having no pants.
If this is changed I think kobolds should be given sandals too, to make them not get bad thoughts for having no footwear.
Post by: Doren I on April 23, 2024, 06:46:00 pm
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on April 23, 2024, 07:23:55 pm
Maybe this has come up before, it seems like it has to have, but a cursory search couldn't find it.
Will there ever be modding support for implementing things like firedamp? Blackdamp, whitedamp, etc? "Although, the better question is, whether the current mining mechanic is complete or not?
Firedamp is any flammable gas found in coal mines, typically coalbed methane.
It is particularly found in areas where the coal is bituminous.
The gas accumulates in pockets in the coal and adjacent strata and when they are penetrated the release can trigger explosions.
Historically, if such a pocket was highly pressurized, it was termed a "bag of foulness".
Basically, support for letting gas spawn and then linger. Custom gas evaporates very quickly, which is problematic for certain modding endeavors.
Goody towers lean close to something approaching a natural mining hazard, but obviously they are very much their own thing.
I could understand maybe wanting to shrug off adding in better gas simulation support until way off in the far future. Like, I get that.
Been having a craving recently for adding in some neat puzzles, in terms of the game's mining logistics, and figured I'd ask. Apologies if the future of gas and the core mining gameplay wheel has been addressed in a previous post already.
Thanks again for your time Toad.
Edit: grammar, appended second question
I'd also be curious about this. Mostly because "you have uncovered a bag of foulness" just sounds so DF-y.
Post by: DPh Kraken on April 23, 2024, 07:35:08 pm
What cues certain music tracks to play in Fortress mode? I know the song “Vile Force of Darkness” plays when a siege arrives, but when, for example, does “Death Spiral” get triggered? Will there be similar cues in adventure?
There's a few audio tokens (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Audio#Music_tracks) that determine when a song plays, assigned in /data/vanilla/vanilla_music/objects/music_standard.txt (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Soundtrack). I don't know the exact program conditions for "death spiral", but it's triggered when a bunch of your dwarves die.
The adventure music is supposed to be dynamic (and completely hardcoded, as I inquired prior (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8537264#msg8537264)), but I haven't found any data on how it gets played in the raws or in the libgraphics repository (https://github.com/Putnam3145/Dwarf-Fortress--libgraphics--). From what I can gather, most of the logic for adventure music isn't properly implemented and only plays music when starting an adventure.
Post by: Doren I on April 25, 2024, 04:45:57 pm
Post by: rokoeh on April 26, 2024, 03:11:34 pm
I can make the unretire (or creation of new adventurer) simulation progress time at the start to be 1 day with DFHack (as the two weeks always are much more time than the travel time to the site). Even with that, would my squad actually reach the site if I could be there with an adventurer waiting? Or the mission are all abstract math behind the scenes and nothing would "physically" happen If I were there observing?
What about If I leave a squad member behind to be the ruler of the new site... I guess he would be there I would be able to find the dwarf?
Post by: Eric Blank on April 26, 2024, 05:02:53 pm
When you have a dwarf become administrator, they probably do hang out somewhere, but in i never actually found any of the dwarves I sent to any of the hamlets I conquered when I played on the beta launch day.
Post by: Beag on April 27, 2024, 04:57:07 pm
2. Since priorities are currently in flux regarding what gets implemented next what are the chances in one of the updates following adventure mode's release this year or next that we will be able to purchase houses/plots of land in towns? It was on the old to do list and it would be a nice variation on the base building that existed in the old version with building our own mead halls.
3. Are towns going to get any new kinds of buildings/features/organizations with the town updates? Previously libraries and guilds halls in towns didn't do much and it would be cool to see them have their own little quest types/if possible be joinable factions like mercenary companies are.
4. Will random edible leaves picked from the ground still be worth a small amount of money in trading? Stuff like lettuce and what not. In early versions you could pay for your inn room with lettuce leaves in a quick pinch.
Post by: Verdiumm on April 30, 2024, 02:25:08 am
Ever since the villains release, there has been an event where a villain can send people to corrupt your dwarves to steal an artifact of yours which is great flavour.
But for some reason it seems to be abnormally common. I'm talking hundreds of historical figures "Claiming from afar" in Legends mode almost the instant it is made for me a lot of the time.
This results in the majority of your guests being thieves, which both means you won't get many regular visitors and you'll need to seal away your artifacts 100% of the time (or disallow visitors).
Or, if you want more regular visitors, just get rid of your artifacts.
I'd guess this would be one of the things looked at when Villains is revisited and it's probably just a side effect of it not being finished right?