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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Dryvnt on November 03, 2010, 10:05:23 am

Title: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Dryvnt on November 03, 2010, 10:05:23 am
After playing Dwarf Fortress for a week or so, every single fort I have had has gone and died before I felt I really got started, because of some mistake I did.

This made me realize that there is no learning curve. There is, instead, a learning wall.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning courve of DF
Post by: Ten_Tacles on November 03, 2010, 10:09:20 am
Well, actually its a learning overhang as far as I know.
But well, this is DF, the land of flaming dwarves butchering mermaids with golden discs.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning courve of DF
Post by: LoSboccacc on November 03, 2010, 10:10:03 am
it's the wall of fun, the arch nemesis of the wailing wall.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: SkyRender on November 03, 2010, 10:30:40 am
This image sums it up, if you replace "Eve Online" with "Dwarf Fortress".  And make the cliff a few hundred feet taller.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Dariush on November 03, 2010, 10:37:02 am
Hm, that's the second shitty photoshop of that image (with original containing DF) I had seen  :'( Damn ripoffers.
More on topic, after a first couple of forts you'll stop making really stupid decisions and start searching for Fun voluntarily. IIRC, it was my fifth fort (and second one in 31.x) that died FPS death rather than anything else.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Eugenitor on November 03, 2010, 10:55:51 am
It doesn't help that the first few years are the most difficult. Even experienced players easily get creamed in the first couple of seasons from unforeseen threats.

Once you have a system in place for everything, and the dwarfpower and constructions to back it up, you've effectively won the game and can challenge yourself by taking on HFS or just do whatever.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Chocolatemilkgod on November 03, 2010, 11:46:05 am
Quote from: Eugenitor on November 03, 2010, 10:55:51 am
Once you have a system in place for everything, and the dwarfpower and constructions to back it up, you've effectively won the game and can challenge yourself by taking on HFS or just do whatever.

There is no way to win! MUAHAHAHAHAHAH...Er sorry about that.

Quote from: SkyRender on November 03, 2010, 10:30:40 am
This image sums it up, if you replace "Eve Online" with "Dwarf Fortress".
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Done :P
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cheap effects ftw!!! XD
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Silent_Thunder on November 03, 2010, 11:50:56 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Fix'd that pic for you, needed magma
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Herbiie on November 03, 2010, 11:55:02 am
That doesn't accurately show DF's learning curve.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Is more accurate :)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Dariush on November 03, 2010, 12:14:29 pm
Quote from: Herbiie on November 03, 2010, 11:55:02 am
That doesn't accurately show DF's learning curve.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Is more accurate :)
Er... it's... negative playing time on part "Ffs now how do I do that?"  :o
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Encased in burning magma on November 03, 2010, 12:18:46 pm
You will eventually reach boring plateau.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Herbiie on November 03, 2010, 01:16:10 pm
Quote from: Dariush on November 03, 2010, 12:14:29 pm
Quote from: Herbiie on November 03, 2010, 11:55:02 am
That doesn't accurately show DF's learning curve.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Is more accurate :)
Er... it's... negative playing time on part "Ffs now how do I do that?"  :o

No the X Axis is Game Skill the Y Axis is time. I think. I swear it doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Dryvnt on November 03, 2010, 01:52:48 pm
Quote from: Herbiie on November 03, 2010, 01:16:10 pm
Quote from: Dariush on November 03, 2010, 12:14:29 pm
Quote from: Herbiie on November 03, 2010, 11:55:02 am
That doesn't accurately show DF's learning curve.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Is more accurate :)
Er... it's... negative playing time on part "Ffs now how do I do that?"  :o

No the X Axis is Game Skill the Y Axis is time. I think. I swear it doesn't make sense.
I think this is the fix that was needed:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2670708/DwarfFortress.jpg)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Herbiie on November 03, 2010, 05:23:19 pm
Quote from: Dryvnt on November 03, 2010, 01:52:48 pm
I think this is the fix that was needed:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2670708/DwarfFortress.jpg)

Then all the little tags are in the wrong place!
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Nikov on November 03, 2010, 07:26:03 pm
DF's learning curve was always more like this to me, only better drawn.
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/149/dwarffortress.png)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: rephikul on November 03, 2010, 08:55:02 pm
Quote from: Nikov on November 03, 2010, 07:26:03 pm
DF's learning curve was always more like this to me, only better drawn.
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/149/dwarffortress.png)
I've taken the liberty to modify your image so all the challenges keep going upward.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
On a side note, as I've played both, I think that eve online is much tougher then dwarf fortress. They are equally as wacky and bug driven, sure. However eve is a pvp game and the opponent handle situations much better then your average skeletal whales
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Syff on November 03, 2010, 09:26:29 pm
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I didn't really have that much trouble.  My first few forts succumbed to "oh, I see how I can make a much more efficient layout now that I know what's going on!", and I've never lost a fortress to an invasion or tantrum spiral.
There's a curve to learning how to play better, sure, but it's not like embarking without a broker (point each in appraiser and JoI) or whatever is going to immediately spell doom for your fortress, rather than just be a minor annoyance.

Build doors, dig moats with bridges over them, and close up shop.  Grow plump helmets.  (Actually, that last one's gotten a little harder since .31.x;  Build a walled-off surface garden or pour out a murky pool.)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: SkyRender on November 03, 2010, 10:10:20 pm
Honestly speaking, DF's learning curve isn't that massive.  Yes, the game has a lot of functions, but when you get right down to it, all you really need to grasp to have your survive is farming and a firm understanding of effective design layout in general.  You need more than that to thrive, of course, but you can get by otherwise.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Organum on November 03, 2010, 10:40:19 pm
My first fort died because I couldn't even recognize what a single tile was. This was my first ASCII(ANSII?) game, so I really had no clue what was going on. "Open space?" said the younger me,"Then why can't I build anything there?" I didn't know how to switch z-levels. The help screen might have helped, but I didn't know how to access that, either. All that added complications. What killed it was sending someone out to hunt unicorns. That worked fine for the first one or two, but then the guy died...I decided to quit while I was behind.

Point being, diving straight into the game with no knowledge of what's what or that the forums or wiki exist is very difficult. That would be the learning cliff, methinks.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: nordak on November 04, 2010, 12:23:15 am
There is a help screen?

 I recommend a tileset before starting your first game. Its too hard of a game to not know that that swarm of g's are goblins... Seriously a tileset lowers the learning curve by half.

Learning how to just be self sufficient is the next step.  Then learning how to set up a variety of defenses.  Nothing like defending against a flying, building destroying, syndrome spitting, blood is poisonous, titan.
then again a lucky spear dwarf can always manage to put his spear through it's brain in 2 rounds.  But the odds are always stacked against you. 

Then you play long enough for the entire goblin population to throw themselves at your well made deffenses. litterally becoming extinct.  Then you are forced to abandon because your dwarves move 1 tile a minute.

Edit: Oh yea, forgot to mention that Titans are trap immune.  So you must be creative....  Also forget about using pressure plates.

this post also doesn't mention anything about what is below... Dig deeper...

Also, goodluck surviving the nasty bugs, they are more deadly than any beast. Never take shortcuts.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: rephikul on November 04, 2010, 12:30:03 am
Quote from: nordak on November 04, 2010, 12:23:15 am
Then you play long enough for the entire goblin population to throw themselves at your well made deffenses. litterally becoming extinct.
I've checked and stuff showing up at your fort doesnt get removed from the civ they cave from in world data at all. They just spawn from no where. This include immigration.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: nordak on November 04, 2010, 12:36:45 am
I've noticed that they eventually stop showing up after so many have died.  Either I hit a bug, or the population ticks down with each kill.  Also if parent civ is dead, the caravans, Immigrants and liason will not show up. I've seen this and others have reported it as well.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Number7 on November 04, 2010, 12:53:16 am
i played for a bit in 40d, but then something came up, i forgot, and i moved off DF for a little bit and just forgot about it. i never achieved the trader arriving twice.

I also tried a tile-set. After playing with the ASCII, the tile-set just looks weird

WEIRD I SAY.

(I <3 the ascii because its familiar)

anyway, i decided to have my first bit of "fun" because this fort was built on large amounts of rock salt or something, which i couldnt smooth or engrave. (much to my rage)

so i locked everyone into my little fort underground, built a large room (several Z layers high) with several double doors connecting it to my base, and dug into the river. (at the cost of a legendary miner. Soil levels them up fast!)  I let the chamber fill until it was 100% filled, and then had my dwarves remove the doors.

i lol'd as they were all washed away.

Now i have to start a new one, and work out this Smelting business!

and these traps

And cages

and animals

and what to do with ALL THESE CATS!?

and the list goes on XD
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Zaerosz on November 04, 2010, 02:44:55 am
Quote from: Dariush on November 03, 2010, 12:14:29 pm
Quote from: Herbiie on November 03, 2010, 11:55:02 am
That doesn't accurately show DF's learning curve.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Is more accurate :)
Er... it's... negative playing time on part "Ffs now how do I do that?"  :o
That's about the time you screw up so well you have to make a new fort.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Lytha on November 04, 2010, 03:38:54 am
I've played Nethack and ADOM before, so the hordes of gs being goblins and the ground being the .s was never an issue for me. The issue was to realize that this is an ASCII art game that has z-levels. My very first fortress died because of that. ("where did my dwarves go??")

Later fortresses died because I was overwhelmed by all the workshops that I could build ("but which one do I need first?? Let's randomly select aaaaaaa.... support. Doh.")

Then I was introduced to TinyPirate's tutorial and the importance of a farm and a source of water ("well > anything else! must build a megaproject-alike canal first! Why are they dieing of dehydration?!") a still, and it became clearer.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: silhouette on November 04, 2010, 03:48:44 am
The learning curve for me is/ was more like...

Code: [Select]
####################
#...################
#.#.###..######.####
#.#.###.#.####.#.###
#.##...###....####..
#.##################
.###################

The little bumps are when the updates come out and i have to get use to everything again...
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Oglokoog on November 04, 2010, 04:03:17 am
I don't find the game all that hard if you take the time to look at stuff and don't panic. There is help for everything, there are tutorials - and I think a game where reading a tutorial can actually make you able to play it well can't really be hard. Compare it to... I don't know, Counter-strike for example. You can read all the tutorials you want, but you'll still pretty much suck unless you play a lot. Same thing with a lot of other games. In DF, however, just knowing what you're doing and what you should be doing is enough; you don't need much skill to turn that knowledge into actual gameplay actions.

Also, I definitely don't recommend using graphical sets. It makes the game painful to look at... sure, you know immediately that goblins are goblins, but you can know that too if you just, you know, press v and look at them which you should be doing anyway, even if you do know what they are. And you'll not have to endure issues like having levers in the names of dwarves and whatnot.
Non-graphical tilesets (basically just different fonts for the game) can be quite useful, especially since the default DF tileset is non-square which is just insane. I played the game with a nonsquare tileset for about a month and I still couldn't get used to how terrible it is.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: WrathNail on November 04, 2010, 04:10:24 am
The biggest hurdle is getting all the controls down. Once you learned that you can make the game as difficult as you want.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Herbiie on November 04, 2010, 04:37:51 am
It's quite easy for a bit, but then it throws something else in your face :| Like you'll be going aaah everythings working. Time to expand!

*20 minutes later*

Omg! Just kill it!!! *fortress crumbles* :)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Uristocrat on November 04, 2010, 04:44:29 am
Quote from: Dryvnt on November 03, 2010, 10:05:23 am
After playing Dwarf Fortress for a week or so, every single fort I have had has gone and died before I felt I really got started, because of some mistake I did.

This made me realize that there is no learning curve. There is, instead, a learning wall.

Just keep reading the wiki and you'll figure it out.  Also, many early mistakes can be fixed if you bring enough food and booze to survive until the caravan.  After that, it's just a matter of trapping goblins and getting farms running.

If all else fails, remember one thing:  kittens are delicious, nutritious little goblin-baiters, cavern explorers, and ambush-finders.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: kotekzot on November 04, 2010, 04:49:30 am
reading the wiki before playing was my biggest early mistake.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Wastedlabor on November 04, 2010, 05:02:42 am
Quote from: rephikul on November 03, 2010, 08:55:02 pm
On a side note, as I've played both, I think that eve online is much tougher then dwarf fortress. They are equally as wacky and bug driven, sure. However eve is a pvp game and the opponent handle situations much better then your average skeletal whales

Man, EVE is just a brainless grinder compared with Allegiance. Allegiance is like DF Fortress Mode if you played the role of a dwarf and had to follow the orders of a psychopatic commander.

DF is more like a megalomaniac version of Sokoban; once you learn to solve the puzzles the learning curve becomes a plateau.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Oglokoog on November 04, 2010, 06:02:11 am
Quote from: kotekzot on November 04, 2010, 04:49:30 am
reading the wiki before playing was my biggest early mistake.
Please elaborate.

Quote from: Uristocrat on November 04, 2010, 04:44:29 am
If all else fails, remember one thing:  kittens are delicious, nutritious little goblin-baiters, cavern explorers, and ambush-finders.
Sigging this :)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: LoSboccacc on November 04, 2010, 09:06:44 am
Quote from: SkyRender on November 03, 2010, 10:10:20 pm
Honestly speaking, DF's learning curve isn't that massive.  Yes, the game has a lot of functions, but when you get right down to it, all you really need to grasp to have your survive is farming and a firm understanding of effective design layout in general.  You need more than that to thrive, of course, but you can get by otherwise.

this is more evident now, but back in the day a mature fortress has also to cope with the economy, the crazy hammerdwarf, the guilds, and a plethora of nobles mandating stuff, requiring bedroom and keeping it overall very near the edge of a tantrum spiral.

as it is now, a legendary 10x10 meeting hall and a 10x20 engraved room full with overlapping bedrooms is quite enough to keep everyone happy no matter what.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Dariush on November 04, 2010, 09:24:43 am
Quote from: LoSboccacc on November 04, 2010, 09:06:44 am
Quote from: SkyRender on November 03, 2010, 10:10:20 pm
Honestly speaking, DF's learning curve isn't that massive.  Yes, the game has a lot of functions, but when you get right down to it, all you really need to grasp to have your survive is farming and a firm understanding of effective design layout in general.  You need more than that to thrive, of course, but you can get by otherwise.

this is more evident now, but back in the day a mature fortress has also to cope with the economy, the crazy hammerdwarf, the guilds, and a plethora of nobles mandating stuff, requiring bedroom and keeping it overall very near the edge of a tantrum spiral.

as it is now, a legendary 10x10 meeting hall and a 10x20 engraved room full with overlapping bedrooms is quite enough to keep everyone happy no matter what.
Most of the features you mentioned are simply bugged now, and anyway Toady will find more ways to make players suffer  ;)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: LoSboccacc on November 04, 2010, 09:48:46 am
I hope no more trap avoid stuff, that seems a bit a cheap shot and a bit illogical too.

I mean, kobold thief, or flying stuff are one thing... but trapavoid titans??
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Pan on November 04, 2010, 10:13:50 am
Only time where I truly felt like I needed to pull out my hair is figuring out the DF2010 military. That was the only thing challenging. The others? Read the wiki and lurk the forums. But the military is something you must understand, since it's not a yes/no question, or something that can be simply explained.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Oglokoog on November 04, 2010, 10:26:00 am
Quote from: LoSboccacc on November 04, 2010, 09:48:46 am
I hope no more trap avoid stuff, that seems a bit a cheap shot and a bit illogical too.

I mean, kobold thief, or flying stuff are one thing... but trapavoid titans??

Remove it from their entry in the raws if it bothers you :)
I've removed PET_EXOTIC from all animals that had it and put just PET instead, because dungeon master is broken... some would probably call it cheating, but what the hell.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Ephemeriis on November 04, 2010, 10:41:09 am
DF is initially very intimidating.  It doesn't matter if you're looking at the pseudo-ASCII-GUI or a tileset...  It's overwhelming.  All the various designations and constructions and workshops and buildings...  Figuring out how it all fits together...  The first time I fired up DF it looked genuinely impenetrable.  Like I'd need a big ol' "For Dummies" book just to get started.

Once you get over that initial hurdle and start playing, however, it actually makes a good amount of sense.  It isn't really that complicated.

You can dig out a small fortress, farm/brew/whatever underground, and seal yourself in without too much trouble.  Sieges don't matter.  You can build a drawbridge if you really want to let migrants/traders in.  And you can just keep ticking away year after year...

But that gets kind of boring.

So then you get the brilliant idea to start playing.  Maybe I should build a military to deal with these invaders, rather than just closing the door...  Or maybe some fancy traps...  Maybe I should see what's in the caverns below...  How about using magma instead of coal?  Let's see how these pump things work...  And maybe I can trap and train some animals...

And that's when you hit the real learning curve.

Just getting a functioning fort isn't that hard, barring any early disasters and/or stupidity.

Getting a fort that's interesting enough to keep playing...  That's where the Fun comes in.  That's where you accidentally flood the place 12 times over when you're trying to build your first pump stack.  Or burn all your dwarves alive the first time you tap a magma pipe.  Or build your bridge backwards, or forget to link it to a lever, and somehow allow the invaders free reign of your fortress.  Or you dig a little too deep and suddenly you've breached a cavern you didn't know existed and you've got a forgotten beast eating your dwarves.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: zilpin on November 04, 2010, 10:47:19 am
Quote from: LoSboccacc on November 04, 2010, 09:48:46 am
I mean, kobold thief, or flying stuff are one thing... but trapavoid titans??

Not to worry, you can mod Titans to not be trapavoid... if you're willing to tinker.

Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: LoSboccacc on November 04, 2010, 10:49:34 am
Quote from: zilpin on November 04, 2010, 10:47:19 am
Quote from: LoSboccacc on November 04, 2010, 09:48:46 am
I mean, kobold thief, or flying stuff are one thing... but trapavoid titans??

Not to worry, you can mod Titans to not be trapavoid... if you're willing to tinker.

too much updates for now to start playing a modded fortress. I was maintaining a list of small modification, like enabling all metals for weapons and armor and such, but it was really cumbersome.

I guess that when the update stream slows or when there is a sufficiently complete mid term release where I may be able to ignore updates for a bit I'll try the modders way
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: ioi101 on November 04, 2010, 12:59:55 pm
I've been playing games for... 16 years now? Since I was 10. It's been many years since I've had a game that's been as interesting as this one, and the big reason for that is how much control you're given over how you want to do things. The learning curve is pretty steep, although I think just surviving is pretty easy, so long as you read the wiki which is pretty much a manual for the game.

The biggest problem is that there is no particular challenge - although that is to be expected of a rapidly developing alpha. To have a meaningful challenge, you need to have a balanced game, and to have that you have to have implemented most of the basic stuff you want, which aren't in yet. So right now the game is hard to learn, but with nothing to "master" as such. Hopefully that will change one day, but considering the development goals that will be a long time from now. The sad part is, even with all the limitations and problems, there is no other recent game I can point to that has this type of gameplay.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Miko19 on November 04, 2010, 01:16:26 pm
The hardest thing in DF for me was LEARNING THE FUCKING CONTROLS!!!!!
But after I did, it's a piece of cake.
I kill my dwarves on purpose just so it won't get boring (seriously)
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: tomas1297 on November 04, 2010, 01:38:17 pm
 I was overwhelmed at first,but I realized I just had to start small.Then you just start trying harder and harder things.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Dryvnt on November 08, 2010, 03:54:16 pm
Quote from: tomas1297 on November 04, 2010, 01:38:17 pm
I was overwhelmed at first,but I realized I just had to start small.Then you just start trying harder and harder things.
I got the controls figured out and I could probably keep a fortress running for a million years underground if I wanted to, but I constantly want to build big and I want to build big from the start. I want everything to be 100% effecient. Anything less is a waste of time.
For example, coal is, for me, a waste of perfectly good tree, which can be used to make beds in my symetrically aligned and effeciently planned bedrooms, when you can use magma instead.

But then I can't find a magma pipe in the first 10 minutes, so I start over, trying to find a biome with a volcano or the like.
Or even something as simple as the layout of my fort fucks me up. I try to plan everything ahead, but there is simply so much to plan it gets impossible to keep track of.

My biggest problem in Dwarf Fortress is myself.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Ricky on November 08, 2010, 05:33:42 pm
hmm.. speaking of DF learning avalanches, if DF's learning avalanche was a learning rollercoaster... would that rollercoaster be condemed/illegal/deadly?
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Killing Time on November 08, 2010, 09:11:09 pm
Quote from: Dryvnt on November 08, 2010, 03:54:16 pm
I got the controls figured out and I could probably keep a fortress running for a million years underground if I wanted to, but I constantly want to build big and I want to build big from the start. I want everything to be 100% effecient. Anything less is a waste of time.
For example, coal is, for me, a waste of perfectly good tree, which can be used to make beds in my symetrically aligned and effeciently planned bedrooms, when you can use magma instead.

But then I can't find a magma pipe in the first 10 minutes, so I start over, trying to find a biome with a volcano or the like.
Or even something as simple as the layout of my fort fucks me up. I try to plan everything ahead, but there is simply so much to plan it gets impossible to keep track of.

My biggest problem in Dwarf Fortress is myself.
Same here, but for the opposite reason. My forts usually end up being a 20z high morass of random passages and rooms sized according to whim.

Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Lolzwheejars on November 11, 2010, 01:05:47 am
Hey all (new). I agree? I've been playing for about a month now, and this has just been an amazing game. Although quite hard to understand and get into.
So far I've had about... Oh... 8 fortresses? 5 of them I abandoned because I couldn't figure out why my underground farms weren't growing plump helmets. I was following Tiny Pirates tutorial, and it musta been an older version because it never said anything about mud or irrigating your farming fields. So Fort 6-7 was lost due to not saving and computer running updates >.<
8th fortess is going strong right now. Stupid me I dug up a cavern and forgot to wall it off, as well as cancel all my digging and fungiwood chopping. So it ended up my Expedition Leader went down to pick up this nice little piece of fruit, and was ambushed by a pack of trogdolytes. I drafted him to a onedwarf squad and suprisingly he killed the first one! I mean, he had no wrestling training what so ever. But then another one came along and merced him. And then my entire fortress decides to make a B-line to go and get all his clothes and everything, so I sent my 7 (petty trained) marksdwarves/mace(club? thing?)dwarves to deal with them. Going well so fair, only one causualty, and a few minor injuries. Outta bolts though >.<
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Oglokoog on November 11, 2010, 01:16:53 am
I see I've been missing a lot of fun by walling off the caverns as soon as I breach them  :D
You should do that too though, probably. Forgotten beasts are stronger than troglodytes and much more aggressive. Also, you can set items dropped by your dwarves to be automatically forbidden, I think it's o->F, but I'm not sure. It's in the "set orders" or something section, then Forbid.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Lolzwheejars on November 11, 2010, 01:28:45 am
Yeah. I'm thinking I just kill off the trogs, let them pick everything up and set out. I've been using Maydays files, I don't know if it's the current version just with the tileset set in place or what. But meh. The military screen(s) are still somewhat confusing to me. And probably will continue to be for some time. I'm thinking after this fort, I'll try one on a glacier or something. Really test my newby abilites :3
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Encased in burning magma on November 11, 2010, 03:37:18 am
Quote from: Lolzwheejars on November 11, 2010, 01:28:45 am
Yeah. I'm thinking I just kill off the trogs, let them pick everything up and set out. I've been using Maydays files, I don't know if it's the current version just with the tileset set in place or what. But meh. The military screen(s) are still somewhat confusing to me. And probably will continue to be for some time. I'm thinking after this fort, I'll try one on a glacier or something. Really test my newby abilites :3

Real men embark on multi-layer saltwater aquifers on a terrifying biome with just a cat, two coal lumps, and that's it.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: SineHacker on November 11, 2010, 04:41:22 am
Been playing df for over 3 years and still learning new stuff all the time, I tend to set myself big projects like building a dwarven industry in a tower above ground with a large residential estate below, I like making dungeons and castles as well  8) I get into more and more technical construction every time I start a new embark, I remember how good it felt to finally be able to drain water from a river for an underground well without flooding an entire fort!

To sum up, I think df just keeps getting better the more you learn and experiment!
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Wastedlabor on November 11, 2010, 05:51:38 am
Quote from: Encased in burning magma on November 11, 2010, 03:37:18 am
Real men embark on multi-layer saltwater aquifers on a terrifying biome with just a cat, two coal lumps, and that's it.

Real dwarves embark with nothing and survive on plants, vermin and pond water until they manage to kill an axegoblin.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: PrimusRibbus on November 11, 2010, 06:05:35 am
Maybe I'm weird, but I always felt that DF's crazy learning curve was an illusion perpetuation by a lack of documentation on the controls, compounded with illogical key choices that make learning by feel difficult. When my buddy first introduced me to DF back in the day, he sent me a printable PDF of DF's controls overlaid on a drawing of a keyboard; with that as a reference, I didn't feel that the learning curve of DF was particularly intimidating at all.

I totally understand why DF has a reputation for having an outrageous learning curve, though: When I first booted up the game, I hadn't looked at said PDF and wasn't even sure if I was supposed to be able to control anything.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Oglokoog on November 11, 2010, 06:35:38 am
I couldn't agree more. The controls are the worst, every other aspect of gameplay is simply a matter of being able to manage a lot of different processes at once, which really isn't that hard, especially since you can pause the game at any time and have a good look at the state of things.
Title: Re: My sudden realization about the learning curve of DF
Post by: Lolzwheejars on November 11, 2010, 04:29:35 pm
Quote from: Encased in burning magma on November 11, 2010, 03:37:18 am
Quote from: Lolzwheejars on November 11, 2010, 01:28:45 am
Yeah. I'm thinking I just kill off the trogs, let them pick everything up and set out. I've been using Maydays files, I don't know if it's the current version just with the tileset set in place or what. But meh. The military screen(s) are still somewhat confusing to me. And probably will continue to be for some time. I'm thinking after this fort, I'll try one on a glacier or something. Really test my newby abilites :3

Real men embark on multi-layer saltwater aquifers on a terrifying biome with just a cat, two coal lumps, and that's it.

Saltwater can be fixed with a well ;D