Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Modding => Topic started by: Ironhand on May 07, 2010, 02:56:35 pm

Title: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 07, 2010, 02:56:35 pm
~TILE MAGIC!~
(http://i41.tinypic.com/otzo00.png)



Hey guys!

I think a lot of you have already seen my Tile Magic concept.
For those of you you have not, here's the idea:



So!
Here's the deal!

I think this is gonna be the next big thing.
And I want you all to help me come up with some AWESOME tiles!

My graphics set (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=53180.0) (which you should totally come check out, by the way) is 18x18,
but that doesn't mean that I want you guys to make 18x18 tiles.

Make tile magic for your own tilesets! And let me know how it works out!

You're also free to use my ideas (some credit would be nice, but I'm not gonna hunt you down or anything).

This thread is intended to be a think tank for tile magic!
Get drawing, people!
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Djohaal on May 07, 2010, 02:59:31 pm
One word: Sweet!

Gotta test it by myself later, this seems almost too good to be true  :o
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Mike Mayday on May 07, 2010, 03:09:40 pm
Buh-reel-yant!

I'm on it. Will be great to test it on my 21px tileset :)
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: ManaUser on May 07, 2010, 04:27:47 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't this do funky things if one of those vermin walks over a mud puddle?
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: bdog on May 07, 2010, 05:20:30 pm
science or "how to use what you've got to make things more complicated and more fun!"

I love it!

Don't get me wrong, I love this POC, and if it's gonna work then modders will have more than 256 tiles to use (imagine bags that shows as bags on stockpiles and as gender tags on menus - if it could be done ofc)

One thing: will this still work with d# changes (png transparency etc)?
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 07, 2010, 06:12:42 pm
It practically relies on PNG transparency.

You can do it with bmps, but mine use semitransparent PNGs.
That allows me to do things like shading both colors, and blending the two colors.

The bags/gender signs thing is one of the ones that I can't do, unfortunately.

As for the vermin thing, yeah. The vermin's tail will change to brown, or whatever.
Or red, if it's walking through blood. Etc. I really think it's an acceptable loss.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Arucard on May 08, 2010, 09:21:39 am
I have to admit, when I saw the update about the snake/squirrel in the graphics thread originally, I didn't understand what you were saying. This explains much more clearly, and now I know why everyone was excited about that squirrel! That's pretty genius, so great job on discovering this method.  :D
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Djohaal on May 08, 2010, 11:23:54 am
I wonder if some similar tinkering could be used to fix the barrell/pump sprite (it looks so ugly as pumps right now). And what about bins?
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 08, 2010, 01:57:33 pm
Actually, yeah. Here's the one I'm using in my graphics set: (http://i41.tinypic.com/2ljkmxz.gif)

It's more of a proof of concept than anything else.

The downside is that you get some (dim, but still annoying) barrels in your underground rock.

Also, stuff like barrels and bins are a little more limited, because you can't actually choose their colors.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Phoebus on May 09, 2010, 12:53:16 pm
Have you tested in 40d# if they work?

I'm asking because in my experience many tiles are hardcoded to a black background.
Also, many tiles are using the background color for special function (like when designating cut trees and gather plants, the background color is displayed as brown and the foreground as black.)

Just wanted to hear a confirmation from you.

Is that barrel using ALTTILE?
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 09, 2010, 01:09:18 pm
No, ALTTILE only works with stuff that have RAWs. Like plants and animals.

And all the stuff with black backgrounds is the same deal. Most of that isn't editable in the first place.
There's no difference with the 40d stuff; at least, none that changes or hinders the principle behind Tile Magic.

I don't see any reason that the merge should mess anything up. It will allow us to use transparent .pngs, so it's awesome.

That's the tile that I use for a barrel and a screw pump. That's what running a screw pump looks like in-game with my set.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 24, 2010, 10:53:41 am
Nobody else jumping on this bandwagon, huh?

You can see my magic tiles in action in my new graphics set.
I've released my first trial version, which does not include any of the graphics sheets that I've made
(because of all the graphics bugs in 0.31.04), but it is a good way to admire tile magic doing its thing.

You can find links to it in my thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=53180.0). It is very WIP, but I think you guys will enjoy it nonetheless.

Anyway, I'm gonna be kinda busy for a while here, but if I manage to slap together any new tiles, I'll come show them off.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Deon on May 24, 2010, 10:58:54 am
I use it for plants in Genesis mod. I changed your stone tiles (I don't need that many :P) to creature tiles though, to give graphics to them, but otherwise I use other stuff by you and it's very awesome.

Quote
Fancy trees!

(http://i41.tinypic.com/rupf2u.png)

These won't be in the first release, but they're an eventual goal.
The idea is that the trunks stay the same color (brown),
and the leaves change color and even fall off (black)!
This is the main reason I use it. I just love trees with green leaves and brown wood which stays when the leaves disappear.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Martin on May 24, 2010, 11:49:33 am
During the later 40d# series I started updating my tileset using exactly this idea. Once I get a Mac version of .31 that has working graphics, I'll join in.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 24, 2010, 01:02:57 pm
Awesome.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Toastergargletop on May 25, 2010, 02:19:44 am
sweet graphics man. 

will i have to upgrade my graphics card?


^_^
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Sarvesh Mossbeard on May 25, 2010, 04:00:26 am
This is awesome.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Kazang on May 25, 2010, 05:13:12 am
This is major "why the hell did I not think of that?" idea.

Great job.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 25, 2010, 06:40:20 am
Thanks!

I just re-uploaded my graphics set, because apparently I'm limited
to 10 downloads on RapidShare. Which is totally lame. So I'm done with them.

But the DF file depot is vastly superior anyway.
So here you go  (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2412)if you want to check it out.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 27, 2010, 08:06:52 pm
Hey guys! Little out of context here, but check it out:


I've completely reworked my rough ground tiles for v.0.20 of my graphics set.

Go check it out.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: nenjin on May 28, 2010, 11:31:14 am
Holy ****.

That is hands down the BEST looking terrain I have ever seen in DF. The shading alone blows my mind. I can't wait for Mike and others to pick up your handiwork and apply it to their own tilesets.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 28, 2010, 04:28:46 pm
Thanks!

...not to sound proud, but is there a problem with my tileset?
If there's a reason that Mike's is better, I want to know so I can step it up. = P
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Mike Mayday on May 28, 2010, 05:05:02 pm
I think it's not a question of quality- it's just that peopl downloading a given pack will get used to it because switching to a different tileset requires meddling with raw tile settings and most want to avoid it. Thankfully, full graphics support will make this problem obsolete.

And yes, these ground symbols are excellent. so if you don't mind, I'll be glad to lovingly rip them off you ;)
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Octopusfluff on May 28, 2010, 05:14:23 pm
Hey hey. Can we use the tile magic thing for the old hamfish problem? :D
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on May 29, 2010, 06:43:54 am
Yeah, I suppose so... you could make the ham the white part and the fins and stuff the transparent part. Maybe I'll look at that later.

Mike: sure, go ahead. Just so long as I get credit for them.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: nenjin on May 30, 2010, 12:40:50 am
Quote
I think it's not a question of quality- it's just that peopl downloading a given pack will get used to it because switching to a different tileset requires meddling with raw tile settings and most want to avoid it. Thankfully, full graphics support will make this problem obsolete.

What he said. I started with Mayday, it's how DF looks in my head now. If someone could make a mod that could randomly select between everyone's tilesets for the appropriate tiles...I'd use everyone's :P I also meant your shading tech, not your tileset per se.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Flaming Dorf on May 30, 2010, 04:21:56 pm

That is some crazy awesome tilework. I'll be sitting here drooling for a few hours now. Don't mind me.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: jfsh on May 31, 2010, 11:44:36 pm
I tried out your tileset earlier today, I thought I'd give you some feedback:

Pros:
 - I really liked the font
 - Ground tiles were as good as advertised
 - Trees and especially underground vegetation looks great
 - The differences between stone types is somewhat muted, which makes burrowing through microcline or orthoclase a little less painful for the eyes
 - No weird tile for bauxite, which is good because it's no longer special

Cons:
 - It was a little dark for my taste, particularly above ground.  It's probably just from being accustomed to something else (I usually use Mayday's and Phoebus's graphics packs).
 - I like a little more definition for the ores
 - When choosing an embark location, some of the tiles in the far-left window (the local region) were black until I moved the local embark region over them

All in all I really liked it, can't wait to see it when it's complete and full of graphics!
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on June 01, 2010, 06:12:55 am
Hey, thanks for the comments!

If you just downloaded my packaged version 0.10, that doesn't have the new ground tiles in it.
The old ones that you get with that set are WAY too dark. I don't disagree with that at all.
Or do you mean that you think the new ground tiles were too dark as well?

Ores are on the list coming up here pretty fast. But I've got a couple other things I want to do first.

And yeah, I noticed the problems with the embark map too...
I might have a look at that. It shouldn't be too hard to throw a transparent pixel here and there to make
those tiles show up when they're black-on-white (the way large mountains work right now).

0.20 will happen as soon as Tarn gives me a version that works with graphics.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Kazang on June 01, 2010, 06:45:18 pm
Thanks!

...not to sound proud, but is there a problem with my tileset?
If there's a reason that Mike's is better, I want to know so I can step it up. = P

Lol good question, it's annoying sometimes when people don't give any constructive criticism.


Your set is far too dark for thing.  It's got the "quake look", as I call it, which is a common problem when people do stuff like this.  Basically the contrasts are too soft and over use of brownish colours leads to everything looking smudged and dark.  Another part of that is the detail of the tiles, which are very nice in themselves, when combined with the colour scheme and fine detail level it reduces it to a blur once in game.

A good example of this is the remains/bone/gore tile.  It's a great looking tile, but in game the "pile of bones" at the bottom kind of just becomes a bunch of squiggles and the skull loses definition, as it lacks contrast and the detail is too fine for the scale.
In comparison, mike's tile for the same function is a caricature style skull with a single bone, which stands out and has instant recognisability.  Mike's style in general is a little caricature with the "big headed" dwarfs which adds to the usability, but doesn't necessarily make it "better" looking sprite, but more accessible.


The font is possibly a little love or hate.  I love it except for the aforementioned brownness, but I'm sure a lot of people would be turned off by it's lack of uniformity and generally being a little unusual.
18x18 is also an unusual size which may put off people simply becasue it's not the norm and takes a little getting used to.  I quite like it as a size as it offers slightly more space on tile but for very little sacrifice in terms of viewable screen space.  But then again it makes a pain to mod or adjust with other tilesets as it is not the same scale.
Another point is that it can be difficult to tell the difference between same colour but difference material tiles, orthoclase looks very similar to gold and is tricky to tell the difference at a glance.  I'm sure you can tell the difference and I could too with practice but at first it's confusing and a little annoying.  Have in mind as well that people will be coming from using ascii, mike's, phoebus's(spelling?), or another popular set where things are much more readable and but less pretty. 


You would also get more downloads if you set was a little more visible.  People don't go to creative projects to look for a tileset they look on the mods forum, the wiki or google for DF tileset, I don't think any of those 3 would lead to your set.  Mike's is top result for "dwarf fortress tileset" on google so you have a uphill struggle to be more popular than his  :P

That said I really like what your doing and some of the tiles are really great, ground tiles and the chubby dwarfs in particular look really good in my opinion.
Longer post than I expected but I hope it helps.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: jfsh on June 02, 2010, 10:42:36 pm
If you just downloaded my packaged version 0.10, that doesn't have the new ground tiles in it.
The old ones that you get with that set are WAY too dark. I don't disagree with that at all.
Or do you mean that you think the new ground tiles were too dark as well?

Oh, I see now.  Well, they still looked pretty good, but the ones in the screenshot above do look better (and way less dark).
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on June 05, 2010, 02:09:44 pm
Here you go!

This should solve your dark floor problems.
Let me know if you still think they're too dark.

Ironhand Graphics: new version; see signature.

That's got graphics support for dwarves and critters!
And it's a good way to check out tile magic in action.

I think I'll be redoing trees to use magic tiles later.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on June 14, 2010, 07:18:57 pm
So I used Tile Magic to do some pretty cool stuff in my new graphics set release.

You know how in previous graphics sets you get brown squares around stuff in mud?
If you've checked out the underground and you're like me, then this has bothered you.
But no longer!


(http://i45.tinypic.com/25k5yps.png)

Now there's no more bright squares.
Also, no black squares!

Shrooms and webs and plants are all just
slapped right on top there. Ain't that nice?

This is all included in my newest graphics release. Check it out
                                                                                    |
                                                                                    |
                                                                                    V
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Arucard on June 15, 2010, 03:00:56 am
Well, I believe there's a word that properly suits this, but I'm not sure if I should say it...

Anyway, that' very nice looking, I'm updating now. Keep up the awesomeness please.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: baalak on June 17, 2010, 05:02:20 pm
Ironhand, you have a great tileset in the works. I'm looking forward to seeing it finished. Thanks for the hard work.

- Baalak called Impressed.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: SethCreiyd on June 17, 2010, 07:08:56 pm
You're a gifted artist, Ironhand.  These graphics are gorgeous.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on June 17, 2010, 08:49:57 pm
Sweet, thanks.

I'm gonna release another version tomorrow.
All the colors and some of the tiles should be a bit brighter.

There's a new tile for water/magma/sand/etc as well.
It's pretty cool.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Hippoman on June 24, 2010, 02:48:13 pm
I really have no idea what this thread is. But I'd like to know more.
Also I need help. I'm never any good at coloring or shading anything, mainly cuz I use paint, and I made this tree that I want to shade and stuff to make it all tile magic like.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on June 24, 2010, 02:53:56 pm
Uh... hey.

Yeah, tile magic is pretty much, like, the basis of my graphics set.
And I know you know about my graphics set. You spend loads of time over there.

Shading is just a matter of taking that tile that you have (white leaves on a transparent trunk),
and slapping down a bunch of semi-transparent pixels over top of it. That might be hard to do in paint.

I'd suggest something like Gimp, that lets you use a paintbrush tool rather than just a pixel pencil.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Hippoman on June 24, 2010, 02:58:19 pm
ugh I'm no good with that stuff.
Well fuck, I'm screwed.
I'll leave it up to you and eventually come back to this because of boredom then give it up immediately because of refusal to redownload Gimp, Photoshop or anything else.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: soul4hdwn on June 24, 2010, 04:15:46 pm
ugh I'm no good with that stuff.
Well fuck, I'm screwed.
I'll leave it up to you and eventually come back to this because of boredom then give it up immediately because of refusal to redownload Gimp, Photoshop or anything else.

gimp is free and so is paint.NET (not a website but the actual name)

edit instead of making new post:  oh sorry then (responded to under this post)
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Hippoman on June 24, 2010, 04:18:43 pm
I know of both. Tried using both.
Hate Both.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: BlackRogue on July 13, 2010, 04:27:12 pm
Tempted to use this and try to create my own set, maybe at 21x21.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on July 13, 2010, 04:37:35 pm
Please do!

Let me know how it goes!
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: BlackRogue on July 13, 2010, 05:16:45 pm
Gonna take a few days and try to reverse engineer everything first because I have no clue what I'm doing at this point. I just want the biggest tileset I can get away with.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: WormSlayer on August 02, 2010, 11:43:44 am
I've been thinking about tile magic some more; its actually possible to get at least 6 different images from a single tile...

A + B are on the RGB channels, C is on the alpha channel.

(http://i.imgur.com/mbmqS.png)White / White
Red / White
White / Black
Green / White
Green / Black
Red / Black
Black / White

Background colour could be anything, I just used white here. In fact, you could do the same Red/Green thing with whatever is drawn using the background colour, and there is also the blue channel - so potentially a lot more than 6 combinations?

apparently you can make 15 of them :)
1 red black A
2 green black B
3 blue black C
4 cyan black BC
5 yellow black AB
6 magenta black AC
7 white black ABC
8 red white AD
9 green white BD
10 blue white CD
11 cyan white BCD
12 yellow white ABD
13 magenta white ACD
14 white white ABCD
15 black white D

Update: Or of course you could just put a totally different image on each red, green, blue and alpha channel:
(http://i.imgur.com/8WbfE.png)
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on August 02, 2010, 05:46:08 pm
Very cool!

I guess the problem with our set is that we don't use pure red, green or blue as colors in the set...
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Kamudo on August 03, 2010, 12:04:55 am
I really like this tileset idea, though it feels a little dark to me. o.o
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on August 03, 2010, 07:58:45 am
It's gotten a good deal brighter since that screenshot.
Go check it out on the official thread.

First link in my signature.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Arucard on October 13, 2010, 09:44:56 am
Nothing else to say, just reassuring the fact that Ironhand, Wormslayer, you guys rule the fort. Carry on lads.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Thundercraft on February 20, 2011, 10:07:15 pm
Is that barrel using ALTTILE?
No, ALTTILE only works with stuff that have RAWs. Like plants and animals.

If you got that barrel to alternate (i.e., animate) between two different tiles (or Tile Magic color swapping) without using ALTTILE, I'd love to learn how!  :o

From the wiki:
Quote
ALTTILE
If set, the creature will blink between its [TILE] and its [ALTTILE].

For a while I had been trying to figure out how to get a custom creature to alternate (e.g., blink) between two different tiles on a custom creature graphics .PNG. But after learning how CASTE_TILE and CASTE_ALTTILE only work with ASCII tile sets, I basically gave up on the idea:

There is [CASTE_TILE:], but as far as I can tell that ONLY works on the ascii tile set (in data/art). Once you assign a spot on the graphics set (in raw/graphics), it'll use that one entry for all, regardless of caste tiles. So no elaborate sets where there are unique graphics for both genders of each individual labor type. All of your fish cleaners are going to look the same.

You CAN modify a tile set if there's a small number of special somethings you want having unique caste graphics. If  you absolutely must have cows and bulls with different graphics, you can set aside tiles 171 and 172. But you're going to run out of space if you try to do something too big. Also, remember to remove cows (or whatever) from the relevant graphics entries. You want them to use their default ascii tiles.

PS: If... no, when we finally get full TrueType font support, do you think this will make it possible to have separate graphics for male and female dwarves? Or will that require a different kind of code change?

For a graphics mod can you have caste specific graphic tiles for the different caste types? Can you have a separate tile for a Queen Antman than you do for a Drone Antman? Can you have separate tiles for male and female dwarves and goblins?

CASTE_TILE is used for ASCII version of creature, I don't see anything specific in regarding to graphics which is sad. I hope Toady One makes it in someday.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on February 20, 2011, 10:40:15 pm
Oh, wow. This thread has been dead for a while.

Better TTF support isn't going to fix any of that stuff.

What we're waiting on is real full graphics support,
where we'll be able to assign graphics to objects and buildings.

That's not on the immediate agenda though, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ethicalfive on February 23, 2011, 11:28:50 pm
Oh wow, I didn't realise there was this kind of work going into your tilesets ironhand and may now have to go take another look at.

I really think your tileset thread could do with some screenshots if you would like some constructive critisism. Definately with some ingame shots of multicoloured plants and animals explaining briefly explaining your magic tile approch.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Thundercraft on February 24, 2011, 12:39:00 am
Indeed, the "Tile Magic" that goes into Ironhand's Graphics Set is quite impressive!
However, since Ironhand graciously shared these secrets the techniques have started to be adopted by other graphics sets:

I'm on it. Will be great to test it on my 21px tileset :)
And yes, these ground symbols are excellent. so if you don't mind, I'll be glad to lovingly rip them off you ;)
Have you tested in 40d# if they work?
I'm asking because in my experience many tiles are hardcoded to a black background.
I use it for plants in Genesis mod. I changed your stone tiles (I don't need that many :P) to creature tiles though, to give graphics to them, but otherwise I use other stuff by you and it's very awesome.
During the later 40d# series I started updating my tileset using exactly this idea.

While it looks great, the main problem I have with Ironhand's set is that it's 18x18, which requires a screen resolution of 1440 pixels horizontal to display properly. But my current monitor is incapable of higher than 1280. And I have no desire to go higher until I get myself a large LCD monitor. The usual 16x16 may be smallish, but it fits my preferred screen resolution.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Bohandas on February 24, 2011, 01:15:28 pm
I like this idea.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Sutremaine on February 25, 2011, 04:55:06 pm
Oh, so that's how it works! The information has been on the wiki for a while and a couple of years back somebody produced a tileset using this stuff (can't remember who, but the ballistae were particularly gorgeous), but this is the first time it's really clicked into place.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on February 26, 2011, 03:47:54 pm
Oh yeah?

I kinda thought I was the guy who started it.

Now I'm curious who this other tileset is.
And by that, I mean I want to steal some ideas.
Has anybody else seen the one he's talking about?
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Aramco on March 16, 2011, 03:25:44 pm
Alright, sorry about the necro, but I want to make sure I'm getting this right for the tile set I'm working on. (And this thread is awesome, anyway.) So, if I make a circle like this--

(Whoops, that light blue should be white, right?)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And I set the foreground color to green, and the backround to orange, then I get this--

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But if I set the foreground to blue, and the backround to yellow, I get this--

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That is how it works?
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Sutremaine on March 17, 2011, 02:06:06 pm
Here's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33119.0) the tileset, thread's from early 2009. There are a couple of different tilesets in the thread.
Title: Re: Tile Magic
Post by: Ironhand on March 17, 2011, 03:15:14 pm
-snip-
That is how it works?

Yup!