Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 09, 2021, 05:21:03 pm
WUBA-Inc Hotdog Catering was the best in the business for speed, bulk delivery, and flavor. They were frequently called upon when there was little to no warning given for food-requiring events. Birthdays, business barbecues, conventions... unfortunately, it was quite the tough business. Especially given their main competitors - Mafiaco Deli.
When the WUBA employees rolled into the building, they found to their shock that Mafiaco had already set up shop. When they fled, they noticed their tires were, somehow, outright removed. It took several humiliating hours for the tow truck to finally get the van moving, during which they had to watch Mafiaco steal their planned catering contract.
The evidence was clear. WUBA-Inc had a mole. Probably several. Mafiaco was well known for corporate espionage, and rumors suggested that they weren't above sending obstacles to the hospital. Or... the morgue.
The suspects were rounded up, and in compliance with ancient tradition, told to figure out who the moles were themselves.
This is Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3, a closed-setup game of forum mafia. I will be taking any number of players that want to join. In terms of thresholds for player count: with under 9 players, I'll do my best to make the setup interesting, but it's going to be over shortly and it'll be a struggle to reach the depth of strategy present in the previous two MVM games. 9 players is my preferred minimum. Between 9 to 12 players, I'll likely be able to create a decent setup, on par with Mostly Vanilla Mafia 2. I'd really like to shoot for 13+ players, since it'd allow me to experiment with setup creation, while still remaining within the core bounds of the MVM ruleset and guidelines. Both new players and veterans are welcome to join - while everyone will have a power role (no boring Vanilla Townies and Mafiosos here), you won't be seeing the unbridled chaos and uncertainty of a BYOR. The game is not vanilla, but it has vanilla roots. A few notes below:
The game is called Mostly Vanilla Mafia because most roles will be vanilla and a few will be mostly vanilla. There's a difference between an Odd-Night Cop and a Pyromaniac Cop, after all. The existence of unusual role modifiers and combinations is something you'll have to watch out for - don't try to outguess the mod. The mafiascum wiki (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Main_Page) will have most or all of the role names you'll see in the game.
The days will not be allowed to drag on. In the interest of creating a game that doesn't drag on forever and leave players exhausted and unmotivated, I'm taking a few pages out of Wuba's book, with a few of my own touches. 72 hour Days, 24 hour Nights, no player-voted or caused extensions. Mod-instituted extensions in the event of a daykill, replacement, or meta-related reason - for something like exams or a player having a personal emergency - can still occur. Hammers will be in full effect (when the majority of players are voting a single target, the Day immediately ends, please stop posting after that point, and that player is executed). As previously demonstrated, this leads to a faster and more enjoyable game.
A few ability types are ruled out and will not appear in the setup. First, no manipulation of votes. No Doublevoters, Vote Stealers, or Concealed Voters or such. Mechanics can still involve voting or execution, however - for example with a Vindictive modifier as seen in the previous game, or an execution-cancelling Governor. Secondly, just like in the previous Mostly Vanilla Mafia game, your role will not have any hidden modifiers - if you're a Cop, you won't secretly be Insane. Thirdly, it is possible for role flips to be obscured by a Janitor, but role flips will not lie (though let's be honest, this is just basic decency - I'm not running a bastard game). Fourth of all, I will never include alignment conversion in a game with less than 13 players, and even when it's an option it will not be deployed in an unlimited form. Finally, I'd like to ask for a little trust. Having the option to use something doesn't mean I will, and the more unbalancing it is, the less likely that I'll use it. I might not be a legend of design like webadict, but I've learned enough to avoid creating nightmares by now.
Here's an example list of vanilla and Mostly Vanilla roles, along with the alignments they would be given to.
Spoiler: List (click to show/hide)
More minor notes:
-When it comes to resolving actions, I'll do my best to use Natural Action Resolution principles as per the page on the mafiascum wiki. In the event that two actions of the game priority level clash, like with two kills or two role blocks, I'll use random.org and roll initiative to see what order they resolve in.
-After your death, you may post one 'bah' post to the thread containing no game-relevant information unless your role empowers you to do such. You will gain access to the deadchat at this point. I reserve the right to use a Medium role, so watch what you say while dead. If you are revived after gaining deadchat access, you lose deadchat access - since I can't revoke the link, it's honor system for this. Post-death revivals will be quite rare, and might not even be present at all, however.
-Don't edit your posts, even to correct spelling mistakes. (Just a reminder for new players)
-Try to be decent to your fellow players. I'm not going to come down with my mod hammer if you start insulting someone's play, but at least be constructive about it? Aggression is a valid tactic, but use it with moderation in mind.
-Don't directly quote PMs or quicktopic statements from the mod in the thread. If you have access to a 100% alignment-confirmed quicktopic, such as a mason chat or the mafiachat, you are allowed to directly quote mod PM statements in it. Otherwise, just don't. You may quote statements the mod makes from the thread, in the thread. (Things like vote counts, rules from the first post, etc) If you need to share information from your action results, private clarification questions, or role PM in thread, paraphrase!
-Flavor is intended to be mostly irrelevant. The sole exception is death flavor - you are definitely allowed to infer different death sources if after the Night two players are dead - one frothing at the mouth and the other from gunshots.
Playerlist (as of Round 5):
- webadict
- NJW2000
- EuchreJack
- Maximum Spin
- Roden
- Jim Groovester
- ToonyMan
- Magma Mater
- Toaster
Post by: ToonyMan on July 09, 2021, 05:59:44 pm
In.
Post by: Roden on July 09, 2021, 08:25:45 pm
In.
Post by: TricMagic on July 09, 2021, 09:41:09 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 09, 2021, 09:52:23 pm
Post by: Secretdorf on July 10, 2021, 05:01:14 am
Post by: RoseHeart on July 10, 2021, 04:27:44 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on July 10, 2021, 04:59:43 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 10, 2021, 05:40:58 pm
In please! Attempting another large game may be hubris, but I'll try not to screw this up as badly as last time.
You certainly rocked the Robot game!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2021, 05:46:05 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 10, 2021, 05:46:50 pm
BYOR15 did not go very well for town...In please! Attempting another large game may be hubris, but I'll try not to screw this up as badly as last time.You certainly rocked the Robot game!
Edit:
I thought it was 0 for some reason.
Post by: notquitethere on July 11, 2021, 11:49:04 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2021, 01:45:42 pm
Post by: prefuzek on July 11, 2021, 08:54:45 pm
Yeah, that's definite, at the rate we're gaining players. After the 16th is pretty much a must.
In that case...
Post by: Secretdorf on July 16, 2021, 03:21:17 am
Post by: Secretdorf on July 22, 2021, 02:24:07 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2021, 08:19:57 pm
Post by: RoseHeart on July 28, 2021, 03:44:35 am
Here everything is so efficient, people get furious if you don't already perform expected strategies, eh, I still remember for a rally to kick me for saying "hi", sorry, no thanks.
Edit: If you'd like art for the updates, I might be up for it. But maybe that would take away from the vanilla-ness of it. Vanilla with sprinkles at that point.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 28, 2021, 08:15:42 pm
Here everything is so efficient, people get furious if you don't already perform expected strategies, eh, I still remember for a rally to kick me for saying "hi", sorry, no thanks.
I actually second those remarks. But it's also important to understand that the game is about finding scum, which means everyone gets interrogated.
I've even created a nifty strategy towards detecting scum!
Spoiler: Super Secret Strategy (click to show/hide)
Post by: RoseHeart on July 28, 2021, 11:31:45 pm
Spoiler: Super Secret Strategy (click to show/hide)
That tracks
Post by: ToonyMan on July 29, 2021, 01:47:32 pm
As for standards, I think at least half the new players have done very well. There's no reason to lock anybody out if they're willing to be here to play. Any attitude someone has with another player is because they're trying to scumhunt (or pretend to).
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 30, 2021, 12:41:14 pm
A Mostly Vanilla Mafia Marathon, on the other hand... seems a bit more doable. Nowhere near the length of Tomasque's infamous game, though. Five players, five setups in a row, each in the style of Mostly Vanilla Mafia. Which would make it a Mostly Vanilla Mafia Sprint. Which sounds just as good.
How about it? ToonyMan, NJW2000, Roden, EuchreJack, TricMagic - (and anyone else) - would you like to try playing a Mostly Vanilla Mafia Sprint with five mini-setups in a row?
(Modified times, though. 48 hour days, as-soon-as-all-actions-are-in Nights.)
Post by: TricMagic on August 30, 2021, 12:51:58 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on August 30, 2021, 02:11:57 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on August 31, 2021, 04:31:11 am
Post by: EuchreJack on August 31, 2021, 09:15:47 pm
Voting EuchreJack
Post by: Roden on September 18, 2021, 10:18:25 pm
Post by: BluarianKnight on September 19, 2021, 05:04:06 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on September 19, 2021, 06:38:56 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on September 19, 2021, 06:54:04 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 20, 2021, 12:47:39 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on September 20, 2021, 08:33:04 pm
I'm not going to hold things up any further, although "expert" posting is going to be limited due to mostly posting on the smartphone, I reckon.
So yeah, just lynch me Day One for not posting "properly" and be done with it. :P
Let the games begin!
Sent a PM to our hopefully new recruit. Gotta get these Edits out of my system
EDIT: And brush up on my spellling/grammar/etc, it seems...
Post by: Metruption on September 21, 2021, 08:53:18 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 21, 2021, 03:58:23 pm
Anyone can feel free to ask questions at any time, though, and if it makes sense for them to be answered, I'll be sure to do so. Hopefully that'll make things clear enough.
Post by: TricMagic on September 21, 2021, 04:10:46 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 21, 2021, 05:37:36 pm
Post by: TricMagic on September 21, 2021, 06:31:42 pm
Post by: BluarianKnight on September 21, 2021, 10:18:09 pm
Out.
Post by: Vector on September 21, 2021, 10:22:20 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 21, 2021, 11:23:27 pm
Post by: Vector on September 22, 2021, 04:03:35 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on September 22, 2021, 07:32:45 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 25, 2021, 10:43:48 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on September 25, 2021, 11:10:18 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 26, 2021, 02:24:29 pm
It felt as though two months had passed, like time itself had stretched like a rubber band - and snapped. Coiled. Knotted into itself. Something had gone horribly wrong.
The supplied hotel rooms were the height of luxury, but it was nearly empty. There were seven people. Some of them were moles. Or maybe just one? They had to find the traitors among them - but hadn't they done this before? In the lounge, an old grandfather clock chimed. Time snapped back - and they woke up again. How long would this last?
Welcome to Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 - Sprint Edition. Instead of a single, longer game, this game will be operated as a series of five individual rounds, each round a game in itself, with a different setup (within the same reasonable boundaries), different roles, different alignments. Each round can be won or lost by the players, and as such, to determine an overall victor after the five rounds are done, we'll use Victory Points. If you win a round, whatever your alignment may be, you get one Victory Point. Whoever has the most points at the end is the winner (and in the event of a tie, we'll just have multiple winners, so don't worry). As they're a meta concept, the in-game rules and roles will not interact with Victory Points in any way, beyond you gaining one if you win.
The rules for this game are as in the original post at the start of this thread, with a few small changes:
--Instead of 72 hour Days and 24 hour Nights, we'll have 48 hour Days and 24 hour Nights. Hammers are still fully in effect, and I'll caution you to use your votes carefully because the hammer threshold is easier to reach in a 7 player game. We'll still not have player-caused extensions, but if you need to request extra time due to any IRL circumstances, let me know in the thread.
--Alignment-wise, I'm ruling out the rarer Third Parties. The only possible alignments will be Town, Mafia, and Mafia-Ally. These alignments will act according to the original post's notes, with one exception: I reserve the right to give the Mafia a replacement for their factional kill. Any such replacement will still be a lethal action they can use to win. An example replacement would be a poisoning ability.
I'll be locking the thread now, and I'll send out the first roles tonight at midnight, Central time.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 27, 2021, 12:57:44 am
The seven of you arrive in the lounge. You're certain of one thing - there must be at least one traitor among you. Likely more. Agents of the Mafiaco Deli, out to steal WUBA-Inc's secret mustard formula and ruin their business forever. This must not happen. So you all are resorting to an age-old tradition: democratic executions and investigations.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
Metruption (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (7): ToonyMan, Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, Metruption
4 to hammer.
Day 1 has begun, and will end at 1 AM Wednesday, approximately 48 hours from now. Or at hammer. Good luck, everyone.
Post by: Roden on September 27, 2021, 04:52:58 am
Post by: ToonyMan on September 27, 2021, 05:13:38 am
GLHF! Should we mass claim to panic scum and force them to come up with a fake claim on the spot? I haven't played short games in awhile, but I imagine forcing scum to claim early could trip them up, at least in the first round.I'm game...care to go first?
Post by: NJW2000 on September 27, 2021, 06:09:55 am
GLHF! Should we mass claim to panic scum and force them to come up with a fake claim on the spot? I haven't played short games in awhile, but I imagine forcing scum to claim early could trip them up, at least in the first round.Does this strategy have anything to it other than the hope that the scum panic? Because if they don't, I think an early massclaim would probably be quite scum-sided. Is there something I'm not seeing?
Some questions, in case the mass claim discussion falls flat.
Metruption: how much mafia have you played? Just trying to get an idea of where everyone is experience-wise.
EuchreJack: would you be more scared of a mafia with a standard mafiakill or a nonstandard lethal ability?
TricMagic: If you had a vigilante ability that let you townkill someone night one, would you be likely to use it? Why/why not?
Vector: how suspiscious are you of Day 1 rolefishing? As in, where do you place it on the spectrum from "Highly Reliable Scumtell" to "Not Indicative of Alignment"?
ToonyMan: do you have any particular order in mind if we do massclaim? I.e. who goes after Roden?
Post by: ToonyMan on September 27, 2021, 06:23:26 am
Quote from: NJW2000
ToonyMan: do you have any particular order in mind if we do massclaim? I.e. who goes after Roden?I can go second unless someone really wants to go before me. I don't think we need a particular order besides those that volunteer first.
An immediate massclaim could be beneficial for town. It is unlikely with this amount of players for there to be duplicate roles (I also feel FoU would find that boring for a setup), so if scum fakeclaim an existing role that could make them suspicious. This could make mafia less willing to claim early rather than later.
We also don't know what we're up against except that it's at least one mafia. Personally, I would expect two mafia with nerfed kill power or one mafia plus one mafia ally.
Post by: TricMagic on September 27, 2021, 08:04:43 am
So~. Don't bother claiming quite yet. Day 2 will reveal the truth.
Roden, why do you want a massclaim? It's not even the good type where you state your role, are you vanilla?
As for a VG skill, depends as always on what other abilities are in play. Right now, no. I can gain more info for town simply letting people target me. And no, not a were-something.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 27, 2021, 08:59:46 am
I like Roden and Tric's first posts. They feel town to me.
I'm ambivalent about NJW.
I'll vote Vector, is Tric worth killing N1?
Metruption and Jack...how serious will you be in this game?
Post by: Metruption on September 27, 2021, 12:48:59 pm
Metruption: how much mafia have you played? Just trying to get an idea of where everyone is experience-wise.I'm very familiar with forum mafia.
I expect this to be a game with lots of low power roles. Scum probably has either a delayed night kill with unlimited uses and MAYBE a one shot vig nk.
I expect poison to be the delayed night kill and I assume it works like they target a player at night and that player dies at the end of the next day, whether or not they KNOW they are poisoned I don't know. There might even be a town role that can tell if people are poisoned, but it wouldn't be me.
I'm a commuter and you can expect me to be dabbing out each and every night so that I don't get stabbed, shot, poisoned, etc.
Post by: Metruption on September 27, 2021, 12:50:59 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 27, 2021, 01:19:51 pm
The Mafia is also guaranteed to appear. A small-ish minority of players will be Mafia, and will have the benefits of private communication during both the Night and Day (potentially enabled by an Encryptor) and a factional Mafiakill ability which can be used by any of their players to kill a target once per night. They are undoubtedly anti-town, and will win once their membership count is greater than or equal to the number of other players in the game, at least one of them is still alive, and it is not possible for them to be opposed. For example, if there were four players left - two town and two mafia, but the town had a Bus Driver, it would be possible for the mafia's own kill to be redirected onto one of their own members and leave the game in a two-town one-mafia situation.Aside from the 'factional Mafiakill ability' statement (which has been modified as per my earlier note), the remainder of this still holds true.
In Bay 12, private communication in mafia games is typically enabled via a Quicktopic, which is a free disposable private chat service. For any and all private chats in this game, that's what I'll be using. By default the mafia's chat will be fully available during both the Night and Day.
Post by: Metruption on September 27, 2021, 01:35:12 pm
Post by: TricMagic on September 27, 2021, 01:37:45 pm
Post by: Roden on September 27, 2021, 02:04:01 pm
This also implies scum could have a 1-shot Ninja or Strongman though, since we have multiple roles that make it difficult for scum to do anything.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 27, 2021, 03:48:31 pm
I expect this to be a game with lots of low power roles.This sounds reasonable and matches what I have.
I expect poison to be the delayed night kill and I assume it works like they target a player at night and that player dies at the end of the next day, whether or not they KNOW they are poisoned I don't know. There might even be a town role that can tell if people are poisoned, but it wouldn't be me.Hmm, poison is possible but I don't think mafia actually have it.
I'm a commuter and you can expect me to be dabbing out each and every night so that I don't get stabbed, shot, poisoned, etc.So you can just self-hide every night to save yourself? I find this more suspicious than Tric's claim.
@Roden:
I'm Bulletproof, so the only way scum can get rid of me is either through poison or end gaming me. Met sounds like he's basically untouchable, and Tric's role will essentially reveal who poisons him if he has a delayed death. So far, this narrows down who can get shot or poisoned, giving scum less choices and town roles a better shot at investigating and protecting successfully.The amount of passive roles is a bit staggering to me right now. I was willing to throw down my role this morning, but I'm hesitant now as my ability is not passive and one that I would rather scum didn't know since every player so far has reactionary powers.
This also implies scum could have a 1-shot Ninja or Strongman though, since we have multiple roles that make it difficult for scum to do anything.
The fact you're just Bulletproof and not One-Shot Bulletproof does implies that mafia may have a way to circumvent your armor, I agree.
Post by: Metruption on September 27, 2021, 03:57:30 pm
Post by: Metruption on September 27, 2021, 04:03:49 pm
I'm Bulletproof, so the only way scum can get rid of me is either through poison or end gaming me. Met sounds like he's basically untouchable, and Tric's role will essentially reveal who poisons him if he has a delayed death. So far, this narrows down who can get shot or poisoned, giving scum less choices and town roles a better shot at investigating and protecting successfully.My pronouns are they/them.
This also implies scum could have a 1-shot Ninja or Strongman though, since we have multiple roles that make it difficult for scum to do anything.
Post by: NJW2000 on September 27, 2021, 05:09:57 pm
Roden: you're bulletproof, or claim to be, and also suggested a massclaim right out the gate. I find this a little odd for several reasons.
One is that a bulletproof town player is stronger if the scum don't know about them, as there's a reasonable chance that mafia will attempt to shoot them at some point. So a bulletproof townie would not particularly want to claim, all else being equal.
Another is that the presence of a town player with a passive bulletproof ability makes a massclaim weaker, as they would not be able to give town information of any kind in the night, and it would require some kind of investigative ability to even partially confirm their claim. If you are bulletproof town, you suggested doing something only you knew wouldn't be as useful to town as it might seem to other players. Odd.
So... any explanation, Roden?
On similar lines:
I expect this to be a game with lots of low power roles.
I'm a commuter and you can expect me to be dabbing out each and every night so that I don't get stabbed, shot, poisoned, etc.You claim to have bulletproof-on-steroids and you expect lots of low power roles ???
Why do you expect this, if your role is so strong?
Post by: Roden on September 27, 2021, 08:28:25 pm
Whoops, sorry, I'll keep that in mind.I'm Bulletproof, so the only way scum can get rid of me is either through poison or end gaming me. Met sounds like he's basically untouchable, and Tric's role will essentially reveal who poisons him if he has a delayed death. So far, this narrows down who can get shot or poisoned, giving scum less choices and town roles a better shot at investigating and protecting successfully.My pronouns are they/them.
This also implies scum could have a 1-shot Ninja or Strongman though, since we have multiple roles that make it difficult for scum to do anything.
@Roden:Honestly, I'm hesitant to believe the Commuter claim myself. Having a player with complete intangibility in a seven player game feels a little out there. If scum, it would be the easiest fake claim to deter investigative roles from targeting them so they don't "waste" their night action.I'm Bulletproof, so the only way scum can get rid of me is either through poison or end gaming me. Met sounds like he's basically untouchable, and Tric's role will essentially reveal who poisons him if he has a delayed death. So far, this narrows down who can get shot or poisoned, giving scum less choices and town roles a better shot at investigating and protecting successfully.The amount of passive roles is a bit staggering to me right now. I was willing to throw down my role this morning, but I'm hesitant now as my ability is not passive and one that I would rather scum didn't know since every player so far has reactionary powers.
This also implies scum could have a 1-shot Ninja or Strongman though, since we have multiple roles that make it difficult for scum to do anything.
The fact you're just Bulletproof and not One-Shot Bulletproof does implies that mafia may have a way to circumvent your armor, I agree.
@Met: Do you know how or why you became a Commuter?
Roden: you're bulletproof, or claim to be, and also suggested a massclaim right out the gate. I find this a little odd for several reasons.I think my suggestion makes perfect sense. First off, scum have to choose whether or not to believe me, since for all they know I'm really just a Cop faking BP so I don't get shot. Second, protective roles and/or the Vig know to stay off me now, if any exist, increasing our chances of blocking the NK/shooting scum tonight. And third, it reduces credibility for anyone else who claims BP or similar roles.
One is that a bulletproof town player is stronger if the scum don't know about them, as there's a reasonable chance that mafia will attempt to shoot them at some point. So a bulletproof townie would not particularly want to claim, all else being equal.
Another is that the presence of a town player with a passive bulletproof ability makes a massclaim weaker, as they would not be able to give town information of any kind in the night, and it would require some kind of investigative ability to even partially confirm their claim. If you are bulletproof town, you suggested doing something only you knew wouldn't be as useful to town as it might seem to other players. Odd.
So... any explanation, Roden?
For your second point, what scum suggests to mass claim and then claims BP? I'm only suggesting it in the first place because days will be quick and our information is low. Forcing scum to fake claim early in a quick game would very likely trip them up and back them into a corner, as opposed to just random wagoning somebody Day 1 and hoping for the best.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 27, 2021, 08:45:42 pm
I think it's possible there's one mafia inside Roden/Metruption, but no more.
I'm unsure of NJW.
I don't have anything to go on for Jack and Vector currently.
@Met:
Armor wouldn't work against poison.How confident are you that mafia have poison in this game?
Post by: EuchreJack on September 27, 2021, 09:55:14 pm
EuchreJack: would you be more scared of a mafia with a standard mafiakill or a nonstandard lethal ability?
I'm definitely more scared of a standard mafiakill than a nonstandard lethal ability, since most nonstandard lethal abilities don't work right away.
For example Poison and Bombs keep us around longer. And there might be ways to defuse either of those. So Town has more "time" with nonstandard lethal abilities, at least from my limited reading of mafiawiki.
However, Town probably benefits more from a standard mafiakill. We get immediate feedback at End of Night, rather than waiting to see if mafia did something "later".
GLHF! Should we mass claim to panic scum and force them to come up with a fake claim on the spot? I haven't played short games in awhile, but I imagine forcing scum to claim early could trip them up, at least in the first round.
Hm, but we don't know the setup. I think the mass claim strategy only works when we have at least some hint to the setup.
Not voting Roden because Town Roden seems to like the mass claim. Hell, I'm not even suspicious, I just think its bad strategy.
Jack...how serious will you be in this game?
I'll try to apply the lessons that I have learned for the good of Town. Time permitting, since I have 2 DF playthroughs pending, and I should probably try and work for a living. I just got time now to look at this.
Post by: EuchreJack on September 27, 2021, 10:04:28 pm
I'll vote Vector, is Tric worth killing N1?
While cruel, voting Vector for not posting makes sense, as the failure to post is by far the most suspicious thing.
FOS on ToonyMan until I get an explanation as to why Vector and not me.
Question for Tric: Does FOS even make sense in such a small and fast setup?
Post by: Metruption on September 27, 2021, 11:48:35 pm
I have no reason to believe it, but the supposed presence of a bulletproof implies scum have a way to kill a bulletproof.
@Met:Armor wouldn't work against poison.How confident are you that mafia have poison in this game?
Post by: Metruption on September 27, 2021, 11:57:51 pm
@Met: Do you know how or why you became a Commuter?It was just in my role PM, not sure what you mean.
Post by: Vector on September 28, 2021, 01:18:53 am
Don't like Roden's call for a massclaim, and think that doing this with the bulletproof claim is scum-sided but perhaps NaI for Roden. Also feel ambiguous about Metruption's jumping on it + claim. Leaning Metruption scum.
@Toony: As usual I struggle to read Tric. Null.
@EuchreJack: If the vote on me is so obvious, why softpedal it with "regret?" FoS.
Post by: Vector on September 28, 2021, 01:25:52 am
Vector: how suspiscious are you of Day 1 rolefishing? As in, where do you place it on the spectrum from "Highly Reliable Scumtell" to "Not Indicative of Alignment"?
At this point I see scum rolefish successfully so infrequently, and have seen games die so explosively from Town being unforgiving, that I consider it more concerning when the bulk of conversation focuses around the rolefishing/massclaiming invitation. So: D1 rolefish NaI without other evidence, directed bandwagon to rolefisher fairly reliable scumtell.
Post by: Vector on September 28, 2021, 01:27:52 am
I'll vote Vector, is Tric worth killing N1?
If I had a fairly good sense that this would mean that a. we wouldn't have to LYLO with Tric and b. it was unlikely to end the game D1: yes. No LuckyOwl means that Tric has become prime PoE real estate.
Post by: Vector on September 28, 2021, 01:31:54 am
This is a good post, NJW town equity ++.
For your second point, what scum suggests to mass claim and then claims BP?
WIFOM... I don't like the points about "not wasting the town vig's time" either. Just doesn't smell right.
Post by: Vector on September 28, 2021, 01:33:59 am
Hm, but we don't know the setup. I think the mass claim strategy only works when we have at least some hint to the setup.
Not voting Roden because Town Roden seems to like the mass claim. Hell, I'm not even suspicious, I just think its bad strategy.
This seems specious. Overexplaining. What does Town Roden seems to like the mass claim mean
Post by: Roden on September 28, 2021, 01:54:18 am
Essentially, what is your flavor for why/how you're a Commuter? This is a themed game, sort of, so we should all have a flavor wrt our role.@Met: Do you know how or why you became a Commuter?It was just in my role PM, not sure what you mean.
That's fair I guess, but it sounds like you already assume I'm scum.
This is a good post, NJW town equity ++.For your second point, what scum suggests to mass claim and then claims BP?
WIFOM... I don't like the points about "not wasting the town vig's time" either. Just doesn't smell right.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 07:55:19 am
What do you mean? I wasn't voting Vector for not posting, it was still the morning and I wanted their thoughts on Tric. I don't like your vote here as it's backed by false reasoning, do you agree?I'll vote Vector, is Tric worth killing N1?
While cruel, voting Vector for not posting makes sense, as the failure to post is by far the most suspicious thing.
FOS on ToonyMan until I get an explanation as to why Vector and not me.
Question for Tric: Does FOS even make sense in such a small and fast setup?
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 07:58:23 am
The presence of Commuter implies scum have a way to kill commuter. Not a day kill though, since that wouldn't work on bulletproof. But a daykill would kill you. But it wouldn't kill the bulletproof.I have no reason to believe it, but the supposed presence of a bulletproof implies scum have a way to kill a bulletproof.
@Met:Armor wouldn't work against poison.How confident are you that mafia have poison in this game?
Put simply, there being two of you implies that one of you is mafia. But only 1 can be investigated.
Essentially, what is your flavor for why/how you're a Commuter? This is a themed game, sort of, so we should all have a flavor wrt our role.@Met: Do you know how or why you became a Commuter?It was just in my role PM, not sure what you mean.
Why dos the flavor matter?
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 07:58:38 am
You pushed for poison as a likely mafiakill method before Roden claimed Bulletproof.@Met:I have no reason to believe it, but the supposed presence of a bulletproof implies scum have a way to kill a bulletproof.Armor wouldn't work against poison.How confident are you that mafia have poison in this game?
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 08:05:27 am
Jack is referring to the "Newbie" game where town!Roden wanted the one-shot BP to claim if they existed since there's a meta way to play in that open setup. It's a bit different here but I understand their view.Hm, but we don't know the setup. I think the mass claim strategy only works when we have at least some hint to the setup.
Not voting Roden because Town Roden seems to like the mass claim. Hell, I'm not even suspicious, I just think its bad strategy.
This seems specious. Overexplaining. What does Town Roden seems to like the mass claim mean
Post by: NJW2000 on September 28, 2021, 09:02:44 am
Essentially, what is your flavor for why/how you're a Commuter? This is a themed game, sort of, so we should all have a flavor wrt our role.
Let me establish right now that I am NOT going to engage in or cooperate with any attempts to gain or use flavour-based information, and would be completely sympathetic to any player adopting the same policy. This is not a bastard game, and I'm here to play mafia, not speculate about the mod's writing style. I could go on.
We seem to be nearing the 75% of the day mark, so I'm going to post a reads list.
Spoiler: reads list (click to show/hide)
Other matters:
I have an active ability, so would be able to check Metruption's commuter claim if we do not lynch them today, and would not be particularly averse to doing this. Especially if they have no objection to an ability being used on them tonight.
@Metruption, how would you feel about that? I'm quite interested in the answer to this.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 09:24:22 am
I have an active ability, so would be able to check Metruption's commuter claim if we do not lynch them today, and would not be particularly averse to doing this. Especially if they have no objection to an ability being used on them tonight.Go for it, I look forward to being confirmed. In the meantime I think even though my claim conflicts with roden that it's not prudent to yeet that slot yet (even though Roden absolutely is drowning in poisoned wine). I get the vibe that tomorrow will be 5p yeetlo. My current best guess at scum would be TricMagic, that slot has a bunch of weird interactions.
@Metruption, how would you feel about that? I'm quite interested in the answer to this.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 09:31:24 am
This post seems to be genuinely bad faith. Vector posts in a way that makes me think they should absolutely be able to parse many likely meanings of this statement.Hm, but we don't know the setup. I think the mass claim strategy only works when we have at least some hint to the setup.
Not voting Roden because Town Roden seems to like the mass claim. Hell, I'm not even suspicious, I just think its bad strategy.
This seems specious. Overexplaining. What does Town Roden seems to like the mass claim mean
Am exhausted, sorry folks. I forgot that this was starting this evening.And here, they scumlean me for no reason.
Don't like Roden's call for a massclaim, and think that doing this with the bulletproof claim is scum-sided but perhaps NaI for Roden. Also feel ambiguous about Metruption's jumping on it + claim. Leaning Metruption scum.
@Toony: As usual I struggle to read Tric. Null.
@EuchreJack: If the vote on me is so obvious, why softpedal it with "regret?" FoS.
I'm seeing Vector cast a rather wide net of shade with few townreads and this creates a situation where scum!Vector can just hop on a lot of wagons easily. There's another scumtell I see Vector going for that I've struggled with in the past. I'll call it out if I see more of it.
Vote Vector for Elimination
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 09:33:46 am
As of right now I believe the scum team to be Meta and NJW. Also, it's not my fault you are lying. Or are telling the truth and don't have a way to target me.
NJW, rather than target Meta, target me. That way you are confirmed to have done so. Only option is for mafia to target me, or someone else. In the latter case we will have a list of people who didn't do the kill.
Metruption. One of the two are scum, and I'm more willing to pick the person who an investigator can't learn about. Or be poisoned. Or set up for a bomb. No one can target you, and that with a BP claim makes it unlikely both are town in a small setup.
Nin. Meta, why vote vector, weren't you pushing for me? What changed? Or are you Cornered (https://youtu.be/UFcJmOs8DRQ)?
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 09:36:15 am
This post seems to be genuinely bad faith. Vector posts in a way that makes me think they should absolutely be able to parse many likely meanings of this statement.Hm, but we don't know the setup. I think the mass claim strategy only works when we have at least some hint to the setup.
Not voting Roden because Town Roden seems to like the mass claim. Hell, I'm not even suspicious, I just think its bad strategy.
This seems specious. Overexplaining. What does Town Roden seems to like the mass claim meanAm exhausted, sorry folks. I forgot that this was starting this evening.And here, they scumlean me for no reason.
Don't like Roden's call for a massclaim, and think that doing this with the bulletproof claim is scum-sided but perhaps NaI for Roden. Also feel ambiguous about Metruption's jumping on it + claim. Leaning Metruption scum.
@Toony: As usual I struggle to read Tric. Null.
@EuchreJack: If the vote on me is so obvious, why softpedal it with "regret?" FoS.
I'm seeing Vector cast a rather wide net of shade with few townreads and this creates a situation where scum!Vector can just hop on a lot of wagons easily. There's another scumtell I see Vector going for that I've struggled with in the past. I'll call it out if I see more of it.
Vote Vector for Elimination
What does Town Roden seems to like the mass claim mean in this context. Also, Vector notes NaI for Roden. Also, use Red, not bold. You are casting a wide net in hopes of netting a chance at survival.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 09:39:02 am
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 09:45:37 am
In the meantime:
1. I agree with NJW's assessment of Tric. He put into words what I was unable to.
2. There might be one mafia between Roden/Met, however I strongly don't believe both are scum.
3. Vector feels natural.
4. Jack feels unnatural.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 09:59:37 am
What does Town Roden seems to like the mass claim mean in this context. Also, Vector notes NaI for Roden. Also, use Red, not bold. You are casting a wide net in hopes of netting a chance at survival.Survivalism is NAI and this sort of language thievery is scum indicative.
My guess is that it means the player Roden when they roll town seem to like mass claims. It's a post about a player's meta, not about their alignment. I interpret it as someone has played with town!Roden a bunch of times before and as town Roden liked doing massclaims.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 10:02:29 am
Active ability. Don't you need to target someone NJW? But the Commuter can't be targeted.If someone with an active ability targets a commuter then they will get a different result than if they target someone who is not a commuter. They will also get the same result as if scum roleblocked them but I don't think scum has a roleblocker in this game. There's a reason I think that and on day 2 when we have a LOT of information from night actions going into that yeetlo I expect everything to make a lot more sense. Notably, both Roden and I are town.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 10:15:25 am
I understand assuming that you and Roden can survive to tomorrow given your claimed abilities.Active ability. Don't you need to target someone NJW? But the Commuter can't be targeted.If someone with an active ability targets a commuter then they will get a different result than if they target someone who is not a commuter. They will also get the same result as if scum roleblocked them but I don't think scum has a roleblocker in this game. There's a reason I think that and on day 2 when we have a LOT of information from night actions going into that yeetlo I expect everything to make a lot more sense. Notably, both Roden and I are town.
But, why do you think Roden is town here? Is it merely from their association with you?
Also, with so many claimed passive roles I don't see much night action info to be had tomorrow.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 11:25:38 am
Unless one of us gets yeeted. Conflicting claims can be a good reason to yeet a slot but when neither of us actually act particularly scummy then it's better to yeet a slot that has been acting suspicious. I find TricMagic and Vector to be the most suspicious.
I understand assuming that you and Roden can survive to tomorrow given your claimed abilities.
Post by: NJW2000 on September 28, 2021, 11:30:25 am
Spoiler: questions/replies for Tric, largely trying to clarify what their posts mean (click to show/hide)
@Metruption
I would also like to know why you think Roden is town and what you mean here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8316055#msg8316055) when you say "weird interactions".
(As well as what you mean by referring to a "slot" rather than a player - nobody's replaced out yet, so the distinction between players and their roles isn't meaningful, is it?)
Broadly speaking, the last handful of posts have had quite a bit of confusingly phrased text and reads/claims made without justification. Remember that communicating your ideas during the day is key to the lynch, town's most important tool.
Will try and work out who I want to lynch and build the case, but not for a bit.
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 11:34:13 am
You call it language thievery, I call it echoing your own words back at you.What does Town Roden seems to like the mass claim mean in this context. Also, Vector notes NaI for Roden. Also, use Red, not bold. You are casting a wide net in hopes of netting a chance at survival.Survivalism is NAI and this sort of language thievery is scum indicative.
Nin. Meta, why vote vector, weren't you pushing for me? What changed? Or are you Cornered (https://youtu.be/UFcJmOs8DRQ)?
You accuse one of casting a net. But let's move on from that. What is your theorized connection between Vector and I?
Post by: Vector on September 28, 2021, 11:36:05 am
Jack is referring to the "Newbie" game where town!Roden wanted the one-shot BP to claim if they existed since there's a meta way to play in that open setup. It's a bit different here but I understand their view.
Thank you for the clarification.
Metruption post:
My current best guess at scum would be TricMagic, that slot has a bunch of weird interactions.
Literally their very next post:
And here, they scumlean me for no reason.
I'm seeing Vector cast a rather wide net of shade with few townreads and this creates a situation where scum!Vector can just hop on a lot of wagons easily. There's another scumtell I see Vector going for that I've struggled with in the past. I'll call it out if I see more of it.
Vote Vector for Elimination
Nice wheelaround OMGUS kid but I'm more likely to hit both members of the scumteam if I provide broad pressure within the first 24 hours. The difference between scumtell and dumbtell is how high the sucker jumps. . . . scumbucket.
That's fair I guess, but it sounds like you already assume I'm scum.
Dude, I don't know if you and Metruption have the world's shittiest mindmeld or what, but "OMG scumhunting sus" is not the revelation you think it is.
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 11:38:04 am
nin'd.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 11:42:35 am
I never said there was a connection between you and vector. This is a transparent misrepresentation of what I originally posted to discredit me.
You accuse one of casting a net. But let's move on from that. What is your theorized connection between Vector and I?
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2021, 11:46:35 am
Hopefully I'll have time to work on this more thoroughly with at least a few hours before the deadline.
Keeping vote on Vector for now. The most recent post was good, but some of the previous ones sound like gibberish.
And the phone is ringing, sigh. Later folks.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 11:57:36 am
Not OMGUS. This post is an incoherent salad of buzzwords.
Nice wheelaround OMGUS kid but I'm more likely to hit both members of the scumteam if I provide broad pressure within the first 24 hours. The difference between scumtell and dumbtell is how high the sucker jumps. . . . scumbucket.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 12:15:18 pm
I've seen slot used to refer to players. The same way elim = lynch.
I'm starting to think Met is a mafia-ally if scum with their defensive reactions and claimed ability to avoid being targeting. I don't really get a mafia energy from them, so I think they're town or an m-ally. If we are in an m-ally setup then the two mafia wouldn't know who the other is.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 12:18:41 pm
You shouldn't mind me leaving a vote on you then if leaving yours on Vector is fine.
What do you think of Met? Town or mafia?
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 12:29:01 pm
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 12:30:43 pm
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 12:36:38 pm
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 12:42:59 pm
Buzzwords.I never said there was a connection between you and vector. This is a transparent misrepresentation of what I originally posted to discredit me.
You accuse one of casting a net. But let's move on from that. What is your theorized connection between Vector and I?
Not OMGUS. This post is an incoherent salad of buzzwords.
Nice wheelaround OMGUS kid but I'm more likely to hit both members of the scumteam if I provide broad pressure within the first 24 hours. The difference between scumtell and dumbtell is how high the sucker jumps. . . . scumbucket.
I asked you what the connection was. But if there isn't one, who do you think my partner or ally is? Who's Vector's? What do you think of Jack's latest post?
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 12:45:28 pm
Yes, I am suspicious of you Met being an ally, but I have greater grievances with others.
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2021, 12:48:45 pm
@Jack:
You shouldn't mind me leaving a vote on you then if leaving yours on Vector is fine.
What do you think of Met? Town or mafia?
Please do, it actually makes me feel better about you. For whatever its worth, I'm leaving my FOS on you until I get a chance to review your posts in-depth anyways. But suspecting me is part of your Town meta these days.
I'm really not sure on Met. They're doing a good job hunting Vector, but I think they're hunting Vector just because Vector voted them. They sort of dropped their case on Tric without a good reason other than to attack a player for voting them. There is also the concern that they claim to be an experienced mafia player, yet their play doesn't seem to be experienced. I really can't say at this time. I'm not sure why they're getting so much flak for being a Commuter though. It sounds like something to claim early that can lead to confirmed Town, so I think the claim is a good one to make if true and if town.
Nothing to add based on Met's newest posts. I've made FAR worse.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 01:10:20 pm
You asked my theorized connection which implied you had reason to believe I had one. I never stated that there was a connection. It's absolutely reasonable to search for individual scum members and not consider partner equity on day1. After a red flip it becomes exponentially easier to analyze scum equity, especially with poe reads taken into account.Buzzwords.I never said there was a connection between you and vector. This is a transparent misrepresentation of what I originally posted to discredit me.
You accuse one of casting a net. But let's move on from that. What is your theorized connection between Vector and I?Not OMGUS. This post is an incoherent salad of buzzwords.
Nice wheelaround OMGUS kid but I'm more likely to hit both members of the scumteam if I provide broad pressure within the first 24 hours. The difference between scumtell and dumbtell is how high the sucker jumps. . . . scumbucket.
I asked you what the connection was. But if there isn't one, who do you think my partner or ally is? Who's Vector's? What do you think of Jack's latest post?
I'm not a huge fan of these jack posts, it feels like they lack any sort of real stance.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 01:32:03 pm
Your busy-ness is expected because I believe you said you had things to do at the end of the month, however your indecision on Met is suspicious. Where are the wild accusations of town!Jack? I'm going to read into your sedated state as more than it seems.@Jack:
You shouldn't mind me leaving a vote on you then if leaving yours on Vector is fine.
What do you think of Met? Town or mafia?
Please do, it actually makes me feel better about you. For whatever its worth, I'm leaving my FOS on you until I get a chance to review your posts in-depth anyways. But suspecting me is part of your Town meta these days.
I'm really not sure on Met. They're doing a good job hunting Vector, but I think they're hunting Vector just because Vector voted them. They sort of dropped their case on Tric without a good reason other than to attack a player for voting them. There is also the concern that they claim to be an experienced mafia player, yet their play doesn't seem to be experienced. I really can't say at this time. I'm not sure why they're getting so much flak for being a Commuter though. It sounds like something to claim early that can lead to confirmed Town, so I think the claim is a good one to make if true and if town.
Nothing to add based on Met's newest posts. I've made FAR worse.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 01:33:45 pm
I'm not a huge fan of these jack posts, it feels like they lack any sort of real stance.Ding ding ding! That's how I feel.
Who do you think mafia will gun for if they aren't capable of targeting you tonight?
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2021, 01:48:08 pm
Your busy-ness is expected because I believe you said you had things to do at the end of the month, however your indecision on Met is suspicious. Where are the wild accusations of town!Jack? I'm going to read into your sedated state as more than it seems.@Jack:
You shouldn't mind me leaving a vote on you then if leaving yours on Vector is fine.
What do you think of Met? Town or mafia?
Please do, it actually makes me feel better about you. For whatever its worth, I'm leaving my FOS on you until I get a chance to review your posts in-depth anyways. But suspecting me is part of your Town meta these days.
I'm really not sure on Met. They're doing a good job hunting Vector, but I think they're hunting Vector just because Vector voted them. They sort of dropped their case on Tric without a good reason other than to attack a player for voting them. There is also the concern that they claim to be an experienced mafia player, yet their play doesn't seem to be experienced. I really can't say at this time. I'm not sure why they're getting so much flak for being a Commuter though. It sounds like something to claim early that can lead to confirmed Town, so I think the claim is a good one to make if true and if town.
Nothing to add based on Met's newest posts. I've made FAR worse.
What you should be reading is that I don't know. Also, Met is joining me in voting Vector, so I can't very well dump Met down the Scum drain should I chose to push on the Vector vote later on. I learned that last game.
It's hard to develop a stance when I can't even find the time to hardly read the posts. I'd like to throw up reads, but I don't even know what half of you are saying.
Eh fuck it.
Town:
Tric - Deferring to Toonyman on this one, as irregardless of Toonyman's alignment, I think they would confirm Tric as Town.
Toonyman - Suspecting me gives me a Town read on Toonyman
Who else is playing? I have no fucking clue. I mean, no offense, I just haven't the time.
Met - As above, good attack on Vector, but bad transition from Tric to Vector. Or maybe I missed the post that explained it.
Vector - I don't have a Town Vector background to go on, but looks similar to scum play that I've seen.
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2021, 01:48:45 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2021, 01:51:37 pm
Town:
Tric
Toonyman
NJW2000
Roden
Met
Vector
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 02:00:20 pm
No clue, not worth thinking about. I'd rather see the flip and draw conclusions this way.I'm not a huge fan of these jack posts, it feels like they lack any sort of real stance.Ding ding ding! That's how I feel.
Who do you think mafia will gun for if they aren't capable of targeting you tonight?
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 02:02:12 pm
Met is joining me in voting Vector, so I can't very well dump Met down the Scum drain should I chose to push on the Vector vote later on.Just because someone is on a wagon with you doesn't mean you share an alignment with them. While it is possible for there to be an all town wagon eliminating town this is exceedingly rare. It's a very safe assumption that there is always at least one scum on any wagon that eliminates town.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 02:02:43 pm
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 02:04:31 pm
In addition, those who target me, I'll know. So, taking your role into account, is this incredibly townsided, or balanced? Or is one of the two mafia?
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 02:08:35 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 02:15:17 pm
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 02:19:27 pm
Tric you are getting really hung up on something that won't matter tomorrow. Both the person who claimed bulletproof and the person who claimed commuter are town. Someone is going to target me with a role that can confirm I am a commuter and then we will have an easy time in yeetlo tomorrow. You should seek to elim outside of {Metruption,Roden} right now.
... You do know if someone dies to your partner... Actually, that's quite good for an ally. The Mafia says they target you last night and confirm you as the commuter. But they killed someone else. As opposed to people targeting me and me confirming their actions, something you can't actually do. And a town doing that gains what exactly? Just suspicion. A commuter roll is perfect for an ally, they can avoid being killed or found out, so our only recourse is to find scum instead.
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 02:21:31 pm
7 people. We hit 6, then 5. 1 more and we LOSE, not win. Why do you think it's that easy? Town targeting you gives you the perfect out along with Roden as a potential lynch. One thing to remember is your claim came after mine, not before.
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2021, 02:34:57 pm
Jack, a question. We have a claimed bulletproof, and a claimed commuter. 1 is outright immune to being targeted, and thus investigated. The other can't be killed normally.
In addition, those who target me, I'll know. So, taking your role into account, is this incredibly townsided, or balanced? Or is one of the two mafia?
I think I'll refrain from discussing my role at this time. Bulletproof and Commuter could be powerful in LYLO. They're not much now. We really have no idea what else is out there.
Hm, if we're talking fakeclaims, we really should discuss fakeclaim of bulletproof versus fakeclaim of commuter by mafia. Or maybe it already came up, my apologies.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 02:41:31 pm
... Yeetlo?Yeetlo. Yeet = eliminate
7 people. We hit 6, then 5. 1 more and we LOSE, not win. Why do you think it's that easy? Town targeting you gives you the perfect out along with Roden as a potential lynch. One thing to remember is your claim came after mine, not before.
Yeelo = yeet correctly to not lose. Since MafiaScum stopped allowing the word lynch I've been calling them yeets and intead of lylo I write yeetlo now.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 02:43:18 pm
town post, welcome to the blocTric you are getting really hung up on something that won't matter tomorrow. Both the person who claimed bulletproof and the person who claimed commuter are town. Someone is going to target me with a role that can confirm I am a commuter and then we will have an easy time in yeetlo tomorrow. You should seek to elim outside of {Metruption,Roden} right now.
... You do know if someone dies to your partner... Actually, that's quite good for an ally. The Mafia says they target you last night and confirm you as the commuter. But they killed someone else. As opposed to people targeting me and me confirming their actions, something you can't actually do. And a town doing that gains what exactly? Just suspicion. A commuter roll is perfect for an ally, they can avoid being killed or found out, so our only recourse is to find scum instead.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 02:44:47 pm
I don't like the agenda of this part of the post. It reads heavily like scum (informed minority who knows the alignment of every player) who is trying to make town go down a rabbit hole that leads to the townies doing the hard work of eliminating a townie.Jack, a question. We have a claimed bulletproof, and a claimed commuter. 1 is outright immune to being targeted, and thus investigated. The other can't be killed normally.
In addition, those who target me, I'll know. So, taking your role into account, is this incredibly townsided, or balanced? Or is one of the two mafia?
I think I'll refrain from discussing my role at this time. Bulletproof and Commuter could be powerful in LYLO. They're not much now. We really have no idea what else is out there.
Hm, if we're talking fakeclaims, we really should discuss fakeclaim of bulletproof versus fakeclaim of commuter by mafia. Or maybe it already came up, my apologies.
Post by: Roden on September 28, 2021, 03:01:33 pm
I also don't understand the point of purposely targeting an intangible player with an investigative role? Unless you have something like a plain Visitor, I feel like you'd be better off targeting literally anyone else.
I...didn't say that?That's fair I guess, but it sounds like you already assume I'm scum.
Dude, I don't know if you and Metruption have the world's shittiest mindmeld or what, but "OMG scumhunting sus" is not the revelation you think it is.
This is by all means a themed game, and flavor claiming isn't out of the usual for Mafia.Essentially, what is your flavor for why/how you're a Commuter? This is a themed game, sort of, so we should all have a flavor wrt our role.
Let me establish right now that I am NOT going to engage in or cooperate with any attempts to gain or use flavour-based information, and would be completely sympathetic to any player adopting the same policy. This is not a bastard game, and I'm here to play mafia, not speculate about the mod's writing style. I could go on.
Post by: NJW2000 on September 28, 2021, 03:52:48 pm
Spoiler: replies to Roden (click to show/hide)
@EuchreJack:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: updated reads list (click to show/hide)
WHO I'M VOTING
So I have three scumreads up there. The one on Vector is too weak to lynch on, so I'm committed to lynching either Roden or Metruption still.
This is fine by me - I'm totally sure that there is at the very least one fakeclaim or one mafia player between Roden and Metruption. On the slim chance that they're both town, this game can be a salutary lesson about the advisability of damaging town's D1 by claiming roles that make you immune to the mafiakill, whether you have them or not. Otherwise, lynching one is likely to either hit mafia or provide some interesting information.
My vote is currently on Roden. I'm willing to change it to Met if that lynch looks more likely to work, but unless new shit comes to light, it's not going anywhere else.
@FallacyofUrist: can we ask for votecounts? Is the bot being used this game?
(Can't remember if me voting Met could open the possibility of a hammer, will go back and count votes)
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2021, 03:58:40 pm
I don't like the agenda of this part of the post. It reads heavily like scum (informed minority who knows the alignment of every player) who is trying to make town go down a rabbit hole that leads to the townies doing the hard work of eliminating a townie.Jack, a question. We have a claimed bulletproof, and a claimed commuter. 1 is outright immune to being targeted, and thus investigated. The other can't be killed normally.
In addition, those who target me, I'll know. So, taking your role into account, is this incredibly townsided, or balanced? Or is one of the two mafia?
I think I'll refrain from discussing my role at this time. Bulletproof and Commuter could be powerful in LYLO. They're not much now. We really have no idea what else is out there.
Hm, if we're talking fakeclaims, we really should discuss fakeclaim of bulletproof versus fakeclaim of commuter by mafia. Or maybe it already came up, my apologies.
Hm, reading that again, I can see how it comes off scummy, so let me clarify:
If you suspect two players, one that is claiming bulletproof and one that is claiming commuter, and you weigh them as equally scummy, then you should lynch the commuter.
Mafia claiming bulletproof doesn't get them much. It just says "keep me around, mafia can't kill me". Whereas Town may be able to inspect or otherwise determine the accuracy of the bulletproof claim.
Mafia claiming commuter could be dangerous. Especially as I am unsure how this is supposed to work:
Tric you are getting really hung up on something that won't matter tomorrow. Both the person who claimed bulletproof and the person who claimed commuter are town. Someone is going to target me with a role that can confirm I am a commuter and then we will have an easy time in yeetlo tomorrow. You should seek to elim outside of {Metruption,Roden} right now.
Sigh, FOS Metruption instead of Toonyman. I'm getting a survivor vibe out of Metruption.
Buddying Tric?town post, welcome to the blocTric you are getting really hung up on something that won't matter tomorrow. Both the person who claimed bulletproof and the person who claimed commuter are town. Someone is going to target me with a role that can confirm I am a commuter and then we will have an easy time in yeetlo tomorrow. You should seek to elim outside of {Metruption,Roden} right now.
... You do know if someone dies to your partner... Actually, that's quite good for an ally. The Mafia says they target you last night and confirm you as the commuter. But they killed someone else. As opposed to people targeting me and me confirming their actions, something you can't actually do. And a town doing that gains what exactly? Just suspicion. A commuter roll is perfect for an ally, they can avoid being killed or found out, so our only recourse is to find scum instead.
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2021, 04:01:04 pm
More seriously, I have to head out for a bit.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 04:01:50 pm
A survivor? Can't exist in this setup.
Sigh, FOS Metruption instead of Toonyman. I'm getting a survivor vibe out of Metruption.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 04:05:32 pm
Seriously, we yeet Vector today and then do this tonight. I'm sure that the results would be clairvoyant.
Other matters:
I have an active ability, so would be able to check Metruption's commuter claim if we do not lynch them today, and would not be particularly averse to doing this. Especially if they have no objection to an ability being used on them tonight.
@Metruption, how would you feel about that? I'm quite interested in the answer to this.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 04:07:43 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 28, 2021, 04:11:20 pm
@FallacyofUrist: can we ask for votecounts? Is the bot being used this game?I have no idea how to use that bot so I'll be doing vote counts manually. You may request them at any time, though I can't guarantee a timely response in all circumstances. I will say I'll provide one a while before Day 1 ends, to give everyone an accurate picture of what's going on.
The traditional whiteboard of vote counting shone with little streaks of red ink, tally marks repeatedly added and removed, threat repositioned.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (1): NJW2000
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (1): ToonyMan
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (2): EuchreJack, Metruption
Metruption (2): Vector, TricMagic
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): Roden
4 to hammer.
Vote Vector for EliminationThe norm on this board is to use red or bold red for a vote, as bold is more commonly used outside of that context. That said I counted your vote this time.
As usual, if anyone spots a vote count error, please let me know.
Day 1 ends at 1 AM Wednesday, Central time - or in approximately 7.5 hours.
Post by: Roden on September 28, 2021, 05:59:42 pm
I also think NJW is just town here. He's been fairly aggressive and his attitude of wanting to punish "bad play" reminds me of how I was in the D6 Matrix game.
Everyone else is up in the air tbh. I want to believe Met, but a Commuter + Bulletproof combo seems kind of wild. Like how is scum supposed to win a 1v4 if their scum buddy/traitor gets out first? Also kinda feels like he's trying to buddy me.
Jack is playing really differently this game. But I'd hate to meta sus someone for playing more calmly than what I've seen before.
Toony generally seems to give town vibes but it doesn't feel the same like in Matrix. I've read that his scum game is very covert and makes people paranoid, and since I don't have a solid town read on him this time I'm hesitant to trust him.
Vector reads similar to NJW but without the same kind of conviction. I'm kinda surprised they've pinged so many people though, is there something I missed that got him so many scum reads?
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 06:38:52 pm
NJW is town as fuck or playing godly mafia. I don't think I've ever seen them play as mafia, but they are not a player I want to vote today.
I still believe Tric and Roden are town, their day start behavior doesn't make sense to me if they're mafia. I think NJW is wrong about Roden, but I also think Roden is wrong about Met.
Met does not seem like mafia to me, they are flailing too hard. They might be doing certain things on purpose as a mafia-ally, like trying to associate with Roden to "dirty" him, but I just think it's unlikely. Met is probably town.
Vector is kind of suspect but I don't have any solid reasoning.
Jack is the most suspicious to me currently. Jack is content with Vector's demise, is pushing Met, and their calm in-control vibe is freaks me out. They must be aware of this and they're townreading me based on this suspicion I have, how do I read this?
Currently, I think we'll hit one mafia inside Vector/Jack and I would want Jack first.
Reads List order:
Tric
NJW
Met
Roden
Vector
Jack
Vector (2): EuchreJack, Metruption
Metruption (2): Vector, TricMagic
Right now Vector and Met are crossvoting and I think they're both serious about it, which leads me to conclude:
1. Town crossvoting
Possible
2. Town and mafia crossvoting
Possible
3. Town and mafia-ally crossvoting
Possible
4. Mafia and mafia-ally crossvoting
Unlikely (but hilarious)
5. Mafia crossvoting
Unlikely
I'm not really happy with either of these lynches. I would want to take Vector over Met, but Jack is on Vector which I don't like.
I want to believe Met, but a Commuter + Bulletproof combo seems kind of wild. Like how is scum supposed to win a 1v4 if their scum buddy/traitor gets out first? Also kinda feels like he's trying to buddy me.
Roden is town because as town I only mindmeld with town.No kidding.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 06:44:55 pm
We will have a LOT more information come day 2.
Post by: TricMagic on September 28, 2021, 06:48:05 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 06:55:20 pm
If we lynch one and they flip town then what? Lynch the other the next day? It's not worth it at this point in time and it's very unlikely both are mafia, we can all agree on this yes?
I don't think we should consider Met or Roden until it's an assumed lylo. By assumed lylo that means at most two mafia which puts lylo on D2 at the earliest if we lynch someone today.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 06:58:48 pm
1. Jack
2. Vector
3. NJW
4. Tric
I don't want to vote NJW or Tric today. This is the line I am following. It's Vector or Jack for me.
@TricMagic:
By the same vein, voting Jack is something I'd be fine with. Or, you know, just skipping the vote today. Been in favor of that, though wanted the info pressure and talk would bring.Which players would you be okay with voting today? Do you think NJW is town?
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 07:02:14 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 07:05:40 pm
Jack is yeetableHow yeetable?
Post by: Roden on September 28, 2021, 07:31:05 pm
I don't think Jack has claimed yet, I'd rather he do that first before we decide to vote him.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 07:33:33 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on September 28, 2021, 08:20:03 pm
By the same vein, voting Jack is something I'd be fine with. Or, you know, just skipping the vote today. Been in favor of that, though wanted the info pressure and talk would bring.Hadn't really considered the possibility, but not a fan of not killing anyone today. It may not be that bad a plan numerically... I'm just very uncertain that we'll have better info tomorrow.
Ok, as nobody else is interested in voting Roden, I'm going to go ahead and vote Metruption, just in case people decide against the EuchreJack or Vector lynches that currently seem to be developing. Reasoning for this is here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8316184#msg8316184), my stance hasn't changed since that post.
Note that this puts us AT HAMMER, so anyone hopping on that wagon instantly lynches (making them a prime suspect, so don't do this unless you want people angry and voting you tomorrow).
Tric has a fair bit of control over whether or not that lynch works out, so I shouldn't be threatening people with a nolynch by doing this. I will not be changing this vote unless there's an extremely unexpected extension, because I really need to go to bed and the day will probably be over when I wake up.
Goodnight.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 08:40:07 pm
Vector's ISO has them at odds with Jack, which could be distancing since their argument was short lived and didn't go anywhere. Jack also has Vector at the bottom of his reads list. I don't think anyone has a positive read on Jack besides NJW at this point though.how do I view an iso on this forum?
I don't think Jack has claimed yet, I'd rather he do that first before we decide to vote him.
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 08:40:33 pm
I would yeet jack if I couldn't yeet vectorJack is yeetableHow yeetable?
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 08:42:44 pm
Goodnight.So that's the answer? Lynch one of the claimed unkillables and hope the other is town? Or, if Met flips town are you going to push for Roden tomorrow? How does that help us?
Mechanically, wouldn't Roden be a better pick over the two since we could at least confirm info off of Met? I know you want Roden first, but I don't agree with having Roden or Met as our vote candidates on D1 in the first place.
I'll retract these statements if Met does flip mafia or mafia-ally, and this does make Roden look very good, but I am not optimistic.
For Met:
I believe they're telling the truth about being able to self-hide, which is another reason I don't think they're mafia. They could be mafia-ally though.
For Roden:
I believe he is telling the truth about being Bulletproof, the claim looked very natural. I think their alignment is more unclear than Met's which is why I put them below Met currently, but I would only deliberate over this situation much harder if it was lylo.
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 08:44:31 pm
I'm not voting Vector, vote Jack with me.I would yeet jack if I couldn't yeet vectorJack is yeetableHow yeetable?
Post by: Metruption on September 28, 2021, 08:45:13 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on September 28, 2021, 10:40:59 pm
Post by: Roden on September 29, 2021, 12:24:27 am
Post by: EuchreJack on September 29, 2021, 12:27:44 am
Vote Metruption
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 29, 2021, 12:58:13 am
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (3): ToonyMan, Metruption, Roden
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
Metruption (4): Vector, TricMagic, NJW2000, EuchreJack
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (0):
4 to hammer.
In the end it was a hot debate over whether EuchreJack was a mole within WUBA-Inc, or was it rather Metruption. In the end by bare margins, Metruption was decided to be the more likely traitor. The execution was swift, that much mercy could be given.
In truth, the decision was wrong.
Metruption was Town.
A detailed search of their possessions revealed that they had a very investigative specialty, one that would now go to waste.
Quote
1-Shot Cop (town):
(1-Shot, Night) Investigate [target]: You investigate your target’s private belongings, and learn their alignment (Town, Mafia, or Mafia-Ally). You only have enough forensics equipment to do this once, however.
The clock chimed midnight. The bell tolled, time ground on, and the lights flickered out one, by one.
It is now Night 1. Night 1 will end at 1 AM Thursday, Central time, or when I receive all Night actions and am able to process them. If you are unable to or choose not to act, please send me a PM with something like 'No action' to make my processing smoother and faster.
(Final note: I'm making the executive decision to not have a deadchat for this particular game, as it would need to be separate for each of the five rounds, and furthermore, there's just not that much time to make use of it.)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 30, 2021, 01:21:24 am
ToonyMan's body is discovered, dead of gunshots, lying on the floor of his room. There's no sign of who killed him, but that's to be expected.
But all the evidence you can gather suggests that ToonyMan was Town. Or in other words, working with you all - not with the moles.
His medical equipment is useless without deft hands to use it.
Quote
Even-Night Doctor (town):
(Night) Protect [target]: You use your medical expertise and protect your target player from kill actions this Night.
(Auto) Even-Night: Due to fatigue, you can only take Night actions during even-numbered Night phases.
The clock chimes and the feeling of your doom tightens substantially. Well, there's only one thing to do now. The trusty voting board is retrieved and readied for use.
Quote from: Votecount
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (5): Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector
3 to hammer.
It is now Day 2. Day 2 will end at 1 AM, Central time, Saturday (approximately 48 hours from now) - or when there's a hammer. The thread is now open, and the dead may use their bah posts - the usual rules applying.
(As usual, after death, the dead player may make one final post in the thread prior to game end (or Round end in this case) to comment upon their death - without the post containing game relevant information. They should not post further before then unless role powers come into play in a manner that allows them to do so.)
Post by: Roden on September 30, 2021, 03:17:50 am
Also not really sure why Tric got NK'd, but a gun implies one scum + one ally I guess. Gonna vote Jack because the last minute hammer is basically a scum claim.
EuchreJack
Post by: Roden on September 30, 2021, 03:19:02 am
Unvote
Post by: NJW2000 on September 30, 2021, 05:12:19 am
@Roden
Ngl I have no idea why Met claimed Commuter. Mass claims just don't work if you fake claim because we're trying to catch liars with that.
Also not really sure why Tric got NK'd, but a gun implies one scum + one ally I guess. Gonna vote Jack because the last minute hammer is basically a scum claim.
Whaddya mean, Tric got NK'd?
I think it may be time for some claims, people. TricMagic: who visited you last night?
And the million dollar question:
@EuchreJack: What was your action last night?
Is there something you're not telling us?
Post by: Roden on September 30, 2021, 05:56:17 am
Post by: TricMagic on September 30, 2021, 07:45:31 am
So right now we have Toony, the Doctor. Meta the Cop. Roden the Bulletproof. Tric the Automatic Self-Voyeur(that is actually the name), and Jack the Hammerer.
NJW is here too.
I vote jack
I'm not going to be awake for day end so that's what I have to say on that. I'll be leaving my vote on Jack.
VOTE: EuchreJack
No ties
Vote Metruption
... Votes build up on Jack, Jack says no ties and votes Metaruption.
I'm going to look back at NJW's posts, but I think they were against the Roden/Meta pairing? Either way, EuchreJack's claim of not wanting to tie is more like not wanting to die. No one dying would have been a perfectly fine result.
So Jack, what did you do last night? NJW putting pressure on you either makes them the mafia and Jack the ally, or the more likely scenario of Jack being the Mafia and there being no allies.
Post by: Vector on September 30, 2021, 10:08:04 am
Post by: TricMagic on September 30, 2021, 06:51:14 pm
Hi -- I need to reread and have a lot of HW to do. I'll post later today, just announcing my presence.....
Post by: NJW2000 on September 30, 2021, 07:25:07 pm
I need him to answer the question, so I know what everyone's claims about what happened in the night are. I guess we can reread the thread again, but right now I think we're all just waiting.
@FallacyofUrist: if two out of five players couldn't play for 24 of the 48 hours, would you consider an extension?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 30, 2021, 07:57:39 pm
@FallacyofUrist: if two out of five players couldn't play for 24 of the 48 hours, would you consider an extension?I'd be willing to consider it if it was needed. I just don't want to extend indefinitely, but adding an extra day to compensate for someone not having the time to play would be reasonable enough.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 01, 2021, 04:36:24 am
No one dying would have been a perfectly fine result.
Really? I was under the impression that we needed to vote someone. There wasn't much discussion about the benefit of tie versus voting, so I assumed that we needed to vote someone. I hate being the newbie...
@EuchreJack: What was your action last night?
Is there something you're not telling us?
I'm a Rolecop. I targeted Roden, because I mostly hold them responsible for pushing me into casting the Hammer (as it was their vote that tied things, and I had no reason to believe that Tric would swoop in and untie it). Probably should have just self-voted, but Met seemed suspicious. Had Met actually claimed Cop to tank the mafia night kill, we'd be in a completely different scenario.
My attempt to Rolecop Roden failed. Dunno what that means.
I'm ok with an extension, although I generally have more time on the weekends to "catch up", so don't necessarily need it myself.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 01, 2021, 04:57:02 am
@Vector: Start hunting or become a policy lynch. Even without a through read, FOS would be of some use.
FOS Roden, mainly because an Ascetic Mafia is DANGEROUS.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 01, 2021, 05:00:23 am
I am a Delayer: I block my target's action, but they perform it the next night - even if dead.
I delayed Vector, which I assume she will confirm at some point.
Right. This should let us get some kind of picture of the night. Need to get going now, but I'll be back.
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 08:40:45 am
I hate being the newbie...Jack, you very much aren't a newbie now.
@EuchreJack: What was your action last night?
Is there something you're not telling us?
I'm a Rolecop. I targeted Roden, because I mostly hold them responsible for pushing me into casting the Hammer (as it was their vote that tied things, and I had no reason to believe that Tric would swoop in and untie it). Probably should have just self-voted, but Met seemed suspicious. Had Met actually claimed Cop to tank the mafia night kill, we'd be in a completely different scenario.
My attempt to Rolecop Roden failed. Dunno what that means.
I'm ok with an extension, although I generally have more time on the weekends to "catch up", so don't necessarily need it myself.
NJW Delayed Vector. If true, Vector didn't do the kill. I had no-one target me last night either. Despite the fact I told people to do so, if you had, you wouldn't be in this position. Meta was a cop, and Toony our doctor. Since the commutter doesn't exist, that gives a high chance of Roden being Bulletproof. Though likely a 1-shot as well.
This setup makes the possible mafia Jack, NJW/Vector Ally, or Roden. But you've turned on Roden without looking at other possibilities. You can't kill him, so he needs to go.
I'm unsure if further claims help or hurt town. A possible unknown Alien is a great tool for Town.Also, how do you go from not knowing what it means to claiming they are Ascetic. Not to mention that role is BASTARD in this setup with multiple confirming roles if we take it you're a rolecop on top of a cop, delayer, doctor, and self-vouyer. Vector can reveal his role and put your lies to bed EuchreJack
@Vector: Start hunting or become a policy lynch. Even without a through read, FOS would be of some use.
FOS Roden, mainly because an Ascetic Mafia is DANGEROUS.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 01, 2021, 10:21:45 am
How can you say I'm not a newbie? I competed in the last Newbie game, and mangled the whole thing, costing us the game. I think I have newbie cred.
Why should I investigate your role, Tric? I didn't suspect you yesterday, but I had Roden in the null range.
Also "turn on Roden?" So far, I just put a FOS on Roden due to the results that I got.
Frankly, Tric, you should be accusing me of not scumhunting rather than hunting Roden, with how "soft" I've been regarding Roden.
Why the big hurry to push the lynch on me Tric? Don't you want to know more information?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 01, 2021, 10:42:50 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 11:38:53 am
Also, Jack. Buddy, pal... Vote yourself? Why would you have done that yesterday if you were town? And to bring it up today, it's as if you want to seem town. And I am accusing you of not bothering to look at other options. After saying you have no idea, you jumped straight to claiming Roden is Ascetic without thinking how that would make you look. Meta got lynched yesterday because of similar power issues. If an Ascetic Mafia were in play, we wouldn't have restricted 1-shot abilities active. Or my own, which wouldn't see them. Had you targeted me last night, I would have seen you, you could have confirmed me, and any others to target me would also be confirmed.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 01, 2021, 01:06:31 pm
Had you targeted me last night, I would have seen you, you could have confirmed me, and any others to target me would also be confirmed.
Tric, I'm not sure why you are so hung up on this.
I thought you were a Paranoid Gun Owner (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_Owner), and wanted to stay far away from you.
It was only Day 2 that you actually said what the role was, rather than some rather hard-to-decypher description. My fault perhaps, since I still haven't been able to read everything over. If I had investigated you with your being a Paranoid Gun Owner, we'd be down another townie.
I'm not sure to what degree speculation about the game state and how broken/not broken it might be helps us. We really don't know the set up, nor whether its broken/not broken. All we can do is play the game that we have. I can only tell you what I have and what I saw.
And, finally, I can't vote myself today even though I'd like to, for the reason NWJ2000 mentioned.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 01, 2021, 01:09:47 pm
I'm a little concerned by your attempts to stop discussion. We haven't heard from Roden or Vector, and you're pushing to end the day by voting me.
I'm also unsure if we can afford a mislynch at this point. We don't know the game state. I've seen several theories, some which might put us at ELO, some which might not.
Post by: Vector on October 01, 2021, 01:25:01 pm
Pretty sure Euchre is scum given that townie role cop + cop doesn’t make a lot of sense for game balance. I’m sure enough on this that I’m good to hammer when the time comes, but would like to hear discussion on this point first.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 01, 2021, 01:28:44 pm
Looking at Metruption and Toony, they were both in favour of eliminating Jack. This does count slightly as a reason to vote him - they may be better scumhunters than I, and may have seen things I didn't.
Would still like to see the vote removed. We currently sit at hammer. Players aren't active enough for us to even deduce anything about who is/isn't scum from this, it's just another worry.
FallacyofUrist: would you be willing to consider an extension, given there are 12 hours left and Vector hasn't actually had a chance to play?
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 01:34:40 pm
Also, I specifically said early into the day that I could confirm people who visited me, I would know who did so. That isn't a great excuse, given you didn't even have enough time/interest to check the starting pages.
Please note Roden claimed Bulletproof after Meta claimed Commuter. This is literally the first page of the game. All there. (And I was mentioning you saying you should have voted yourself yesterday. Which if you were town you absolutely shouldn't have in that situation. Or ever do, or think about.)
As well, please do not make things up after the fact, you should have led with your thought on what my role was, not do so after the questioning began. You did the same when you blued Roden. No idea, then you have one that would fit/break SOD.
Hi Vec. That is the issue here. A mafia Ascetic means cops don't do as much. But it's also a very big signal something is wrong. If Jack is town, then his claim is completely true and Roden should be Delayed. Except therein lies the problem, Delaying is anti-town with a mafia ascetic. Jack isn't even bothering to use that approach against NJW. Just telling me to calm down and discuss things, and offering excuses for his actions. Going with the newbie claim won't work on me jack, I need Evidence of Roden's Mafiahood.
Unvote You are BlueJack now.
Same. It's this type of posting that kinda crumbles Jack's validity. And I had my suspicions near day end anyway. Jack wasn't acting very town, even with not really being here much day one.
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 01:38:32 pm
The traditional whiteboard of vote counting shone with little streaks of red ink, tally marks repeatedly added and removed, threat repositioned.Quote from: VotecountToonyman (0):
Roden (1): NJW2000
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (1): ToonyMan
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (2): EuchreJack, Metruption
Metruption (2): Vector, TricMagic
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): Roden
4 to hammer.
This is a good thing. If you were so worried about Vector before, why not check them? Also, are you a 1-shoteven Rolecop Jack?
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 01:46:47 pm
This is a good thing. If you were so worried about Vector before, why not check them? Also, are you a 1-shoteven Rolecop Jack?
The traditional whiteboard of vote counting shone with little streaks of red ink, tally marks repeatedly added and removed, threat repositioned.Quote from: VotecountToonyman (0):
Roden (1): NJW2000
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (1): ToonyMan
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (2): EuchreJack, Metruption
Metruption (2): Vector, TricMagic
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): Roden
4 to hammer.
(opps.)
Post by: EuchreJack on October 01, 2021, 01:59:36 pm
I don't think that mentioning any limits on my role would help town. Better the mafia not know those things. Note how I didn't question NJW2000 on any limits to their Delayer power?
Roden was the one to investigate. There was a claim to be verified, and I was pissed that Roden pushed me to hammer, as I didn't think a tie would help town.
You seem to be adding a lot into my posts Tric.
Sincerely,
BlueJack
Post by: Roden on October 01, 2021, 02:06:27 pm
EuchreJack
Just going back to this. The only other combination is NJW/Vector IMO which would mean NJW lied about the delay, but even that is extremely unlikely because one of them would have to either Alien me (why Alien a BP?) or role block Jack (kind of an odd choice but I could see it). But they were also both online after Tric voted, so I don't think they're a scum pair because we'd already lose.
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 02:17:03 pm
Tric,
I don't think that mentioning any limits on my role would help town. Better the mafia not know those things. Note how I didn't question NJW2000 on any limits to their Delayer power?
Roden was the one to investigate. There was a claim to be verified, and I was pissed that Roden pushed me to hammer, as I didn't think a tie would help town.
You seem to be adding a lot into my posts Tric.
Sincerely,
BlueJack
This is very well written. But you missed something.
I was trying to trip you up. I asked if you were a 1shot even night rolecop. And you completely missed it somehow. Not even considering if you should reveal such. In that case, you didn't bother to read it, simply denied information.
Honestly the only other possibility is a NJW ally Jack. Had you targeted me last night and you were town, we could have been going into today as confirmed to each other. Mafia couldn't really risk targeting me, given a doctor could have prevented it. Your action would have been accounted for. However as mafia, you killed Toony, and pin the blame on Roden.
... EuchreJack. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Vector's action is going to proc tomorrow, might as well not let mafia know on the off chance you are town. And well, without an Ally, Roden is going to be lynched tomorrow. That said if I'm wrong, it will be a learning experience.
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 02:18:52 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 01, 2021, 02:41:00 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 02:42:22 pm
Post by: Roden on October 01, 2021, 02:43:58 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 01, 2021, 02:52:11 pm
Post by: Roden on October 01, 2021, 03:04:09 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 01, 2021, 03:20:54 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 01, 2021, 03:56:33 pm
Quote from: Votecount
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (3): Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (2): NJW2000, Vector
3 to hammer.
Roden and TricMagic turned their eyes towards EuchreJack, who seemed to panic. He turned and ran - right into a window, which shattered upon the high-speed impact. Out the hotel he went, plummeting to his doom.
Well then.
Fortunately there was enough evidence in his bedroom to make the truth clear enough. The firearms, and a dead, buzzing radio. He can't have been alone.
EuchreJack was Mafia.
Furthermore, a more thorough search ended up discovering a small box with several chemical vials - seemingly sedatives. Jack's specialty is made clear as well.
Quote
Non-Consecutive Roleblocker (mafia):
(Night) Roleblock [target]: You knock out your target with a sleeping drug, blocking that player’s action tonight, preventing it entirely. They are given an ‘action failed’ result.
(Auto) Non-Consecutive: Due to your target potentially developing a tolerance to your drugs, you cannot affect the same player two Nights in a row.
But there was no more time to do anything more, as the night fell.
It is now Night 2. Night 2 will end at 4 PM Central time, Saturday - or when all needed Night actions have been sent and there's time to process them.
Well, yes, I'd be willing to consider one at that point, but as it turns out that's kinda irrelevant, haha. Can't extend past a hammer.Welp. Would also like an extension. I'm interested in Vector's claim, if she's going to make one.
FallacyofUrist: would you be willing to consider an extension, given there are 12 hours left and Vector hasn't actually had a chance to play?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 03, 2021, 11:34:28 am
Quote from: Votecount
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (4): Roden, TricMagic, NJW2000, Vector
3 to hammer.
It is now Day 3. Day 3 will end at noon, Tuesday, Central time (approximately 48 hours from now) - or upon a hammer.
Post by: TricMagic on October 03, 2021, 11:48:30 am
Post by: Vector on October 03, 2021, 12:41:09 pm
Last night, I obviously couldn't do anything, so I none'd.
I can conclude from this I guess that:
1. Roden was at least not lying about their role, which lends some credence to the suggestion that they are town.
2. NJW is at least a 1-shot delayer, given that I was indeed delayed (not just RBed).
3. No one has confirmed Tric yet.
4. It is possible that the Mafia: None'd, took another action, or had a delayed NK last night. If the NK was delayed then this is possibly actually LYLO, not MELO.
NJW, who did you delay last night?
I want to reread the thread for Tric/Euchre interactions ... I have to work now tho.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 03, 2021, 01:07:58 pm
NJW, who did you delay last night?
You, so...
Pfp but y'all get the picture. Careful with votes obviously, hammer poss.
Post by: Roden on October 03, 2021, 01:54:40 pm
On a green Jack flip it's just a scum win I think. If we don't lose, then tonight Met should delay whoever he thinks is the final scum. But I'm pretty sure it's just Vector.
WhatI said the wrong name again there, sorry.
Pretty sure we just vote Vector here lol. I didn't believe it when Jack said he checked me, and I have no reason to believe Vector would choose to check me either when I was the only person to full claim and Tric was literally asking to be targeted.
Posting from class, need an extension.Also, this just reads as self-incriminating now.
Pretty sure Euchre is scum given that townie role cop + cop doesn’t make a lot of sense for game balance. I’m sure enough on this that I’m good to hammer when the time comes, but would like to hear discussion on this point first.
Post by: TricMagic on October 03, 2021, 02:22:19 pm
Checks start of day 1. Anyway Vector, you are going to need to present a case against me. I have made no secret of my ability to see who visits me. No one did last night.
Post by: TricMagic on October 03, 2021, 02:25:20 pm
I'll vote Vector, is Tric worth killing N1?
If I had a fairly good sense that this would mean that a. we wouldn't have to LYLO with Tric and b. it was unlikely to end the game D1: yes. No LuckyOwl means that Tric has become prime PoE real estate.
Heh. Well, now's the time. Let's see what you got Vector. (https://youtu.be/QheJux2k90o)
Post by: NJW2000 on October 03, 2021, 03:31:27 pm
Here's the thing.
If Vector is mafia and they were delayed, then the kill happens tonight most likely, so town loses if we lynched someone else.
Otherwise, if Vector is not mafia, if we mislynch them today, then there's still a chance of delaying the kill and winning tomorrow.
So... Vector is looking like a very logical choice.
Post by: TricMagic on October 03, 2021, 04:37:46 pm
That said, your post is made from your assumption you are town, so.. I'm still kina annoyed though, given I want Vector to give his case against me.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 03, 2021, 07:06:51 pm
If Vector is not mafia, Roden is bulletproof in a setup without town bullets. If I'm locktown, then that means you are the most likely. There won't BE a delay tomorrow then.Well, yeah, that post was made from my perspective. From your perspective, assuming you're town... the above reasoning doesn't work unless you believe I'm a town delayer and are trying to decide between lynching Vector or Roden. Which isn't where you're at. Nonetheless, it explains why I'll most likely be voting Vector. Willing to wait for them to give a case or something though.
That said, your post is made from your assumption you are town, so.. I'm still kina annoyed though, given I want Vector to give his case against me.
Also lets try to use they/them/theirs for Vector - I think that's preferred.
Post by: Vector on October 04, 2021, 12:46:32 am
Pretty sure we just vote Vector here lol. I didn't believe it when Jack said he checked me, and I have no reason to believe Vector would choose to check me either when I was the only person to full claim and Tric was literally asking to be targeted.
OK, serious question ... if I didn't cop you, and I was delayed by NJW, then what do you think I did instead?
Post by: Roden on October 04, 2021, 03:33:12 am
Does it matter? For all I know, you could be telling the truth and still be scum. A town Rolecop has no reason to check a BP claim, but a mafia Rolecop could do it to see if I'm bluffing and really just a Doc trying to deter scum from shooting me. That way you don't risk wasting your NK just in case I actually am BP.Pretty sure we just vote Vector here lol. I didn't believe it when Jack said he checked me, and I have no reason to believe Vector would choose to check me either when I was the only person to full claim and Tric was literally asking to be targeted.
OK, serious question ... if I didn't cop you, and I was delayed by NJW, then what do you think I did instead?
Can you explain what you hoped to gain from Rolecopping me and not Tric or NJW? Again,Tric was actually asking to be checked and was teasing a mystery role, so why not cop him?
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 07:58:10 am
Thinking on it, if NJW is Mafia, they delayed the kill to delay Vector. If they aren't, they delayed Vector. So simply No Lynching will solve this case. Barring me being mafia, but Vector, you kinda have to give the case on me being it. Right now you're flailing. You can't ask questions without also answering them.
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 08:00:28 am
Post by: Vector on October 04, 2021, 04:46:53 pm
Luckily I'm not scum 9_9
Post by: Vector on October 04, 2021, 05:13:17 pm
Next: folks who are asking me why I didn't check Tric, are you kidding me? Tric and I were mechanically confirmed townies in a game together and we lost. Confirming Roden's role is much more valuable for town because a confirmed bulletproof townie can eat an NK after being confirmed.
Based on playstyle I don't think it's NJW, so I'm voting for TricMagic.
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 05:52:13 pm
Remember this Vector, I revealed myself at the very start of the game. While no confirmation has happened, that is entirely on me. Not you. Roden is town, and NJW delayed you. And not wanting to actually push the NJW lynch or make a case on me outs you firmly as a Red Vector.
There really wasn't anything you can do. Roden said it best.
GLHF! Should we mass claim to panic scum and force them to come up with a fake claim on the spot? I haven't played short games in awhile, but I imagine forcing scum to claim early could trip them up, at least in the first round.
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 05:54:54 pm
Posting from class, need an extension.
Pretty sure Euchre is scum given that townie role cop + cop doesn’t make a lot of sense for game balance. I’m sure enough on this that I’m good to hammer when the time comes, but would like to hear discussion on this point first.
Also, this. Just this. A better argument would be that you were the rolecop. Which in light of your own claim is very suspisous.
Post by: Vector on October 04, 2021, 06:28:45 pm
Also, this. Just this. A better argument would be that you were the rolecop. Which in light of your own claim is very suspisous.
I wasn't going to out myself out without any results and draw the NK. Silly goose.
(Nice OMGUS).
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 06:31:06 pm
Spoiler: Megaquote Wall Of Vectors Alignment (click to show/hide)
Day 1 posts. Logic Chess (https://youtu.be/BqNAptafVAY) Begin!
First Post. This one involves Jack, Meta, and Roden. drinks tea
First is the call for massclaims and his thoughts. Vector conclude Roden is currently NaI, I assume this means Not any Info. This actually conflicts somewhat with Vector investigating Roden, as a bulletproof is an infoless role. Another investigative target could have been picked, for example.
Vector:@Toony: As usual I struggle to read Tric. Null.
Myself. As he stated, he had no info on me at all. Confirming my role would have resulted in him being known not to have done the kill, as well as rendering today an open and shut case for him. his ability to ferret out the truth would have given us a likely victory, with only two suspects. Of course, I could have been killed before then, but the same skip day would apply if Vector was town and didn't do the kill. When no-one died, it could have pushed Vector out of suspicion.
So another target. Jack, someone who has always been a bit of a wildcard. Unlikely to be killed as well. And someone you fingered with suspicion. Of course, we now know Jack wasn't working alone, and shut up very quickly with the self-vote. But investigating him would give you town-cred when he flipped. Instead he died without anything from you but saying you'd be fine with voting Jack.
Notable is the fact that as the end of day 1 approached, his posts became more suspicious. Which is what ended with me pegging him as Mafia during day 2.
Second Post. drinks tea
"Not Indicative of Alignment"? .. Well, point stands that wanting info is not indicative. But.. Directed Bandwagon to rolefisher is a reliable scumtell? Meta approved, I approved and revealed, and Meta ended up dead by your and Jack's votes. Mostly due to falseclaiming, but you were the first vote, and kept it there for the whole day. And you certainly could have pushed harder on Jack day 2. His claim felt scripted by someone else, which I thought weird at the time, but passed off as Jack's idea.
Post 3, 4, and 5. (https://youtu.be/kN2proYH9rM)
Post 3 is setup. Big time. And right now you're hoping to cash in these chips. But without a case of logic, it's meaningless.
Post 4, Setup. Buddying NJW, and setting Roden up when Meta falls. But it didn't fall that way. With Meta's claim not being opposed to Roden's, I moved to Jack, as did others? Right now, he's the strongest, a 1-shot Bulletproof by your own admission. In a game where only mafia kills, that's as good as town that you can get. And in a game with a 1-shot cop and doctor, being a Rolecop is one of the worst claims one can make as mafia. As it's true, and you checked Roden's claim.
Post five, poking Jack.
This shortly after, you already assume him to be scum, which is a point for checking him. Why though? Why think that yet vote for Meta?Essentially, what is your flavor for why/how you're a Commuter? This is a themed game, sort of, so we should all have a flavor wrt our role.@Met: Do you know how or why you became a Commuter?It was just in my role PM, not sure what you mean.That's fair I guess, but it sounds like you already assume I'm scum.
This is a good post, NJW town equity ++.For your second point, what scum suggests to mass claim and then claims BP?
WIFOM... I don't like the points about "not wasting the town vig's time" either. Just doesn't smell right.
Post 6. Jack hasn't answered, yet no poke! (https://youtu.be/SUK_UhJZlfU)
I wish I had time to keep up with all of this. And with our deadline being in 13 hours, gotta keep things moving.
Hopefully I'll have time to work on this more thoroughly with at least a few hours before the deadline.
Keeping vote on Vector for now. The most recent post was good, but some of the previous ones sound like gibberish.
And the phone is ringing, sigh. Later folks.
A very clear case of distancing, till Jack made the turnaround and killed Meta. Jack has consistently avoided suspecting you day 1.
Not OMGUS. This post is an incoherent salad of buzzwords.
Nice wheelaround OMGUS kid but I'm more likely to hit both members of the scumteam if I provide broad pressure within the first 24 hours. The difference between scumtell and dumbtell is how high the sucker jumps. . . . scumbucket.
Put simply, the evidence mounts against you. Looking at NJW, they've been consistently cool and collected this entire game. To the point I wonder what they are hiding. But as it stands, that just seems to be how they've been playing. I can call this, Case Closed. Though looking at day 2 won't help you either.
Also, this. Just this. A better argument would be that you were the rolecop. Which in light of your own claim is very suspisous.
I wasn't going to out myself out without any results and draw the NK. Silly goose.
(Nice OMGUS).
Vector, I would have suspected a case, not a joke while I was making my case against you. Show some Evidence.
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 06:33:21 pm
To quote, a wide net is nessaceery to catch fish. And there are a lot of town to kill, huh Vector?This post seems to be genuinely bad faith. Vector posts in a way that makes me think they should absolutely be able to parse many likely meanings of this statement.Hm, but we don't know the setup. I think the mass claim strategy only works when we have at least some hint to the setup.
Not voting Roden because Town Roden seems to like the mass claim. Hell, I'm not even suspicious, I just think its bad strategy.
This seems specious. Overexplaining. What does Town Roden seems to like the mass claim meanAm exhausted, sorry folks. I forgot that this was starting this evening.And here, they scumlean me for no reason.
Don't like Roden's call for a massclaim, and think that doing this with the bulletproof claim is scum-sided but perhaps NaI for Roden. Also feel ambiguous about Metruption's jumping on it + claim. Leaning Metruption scum.
@Toony: As usual I struggle to read Tric. Null.
@EuchreJack: If the vote on me is so obvious, why softpedal it with "regret?" FoS.
I'm seeing Vector cast a rather wide net of shade with few townreads and this creates a situation where scum!Vector can just hop on a lot of wagons easily. There's another scumtell I see Vector going for that I've struggled with in the past. I'll call it out if I see more of it.
Vote Vector for Elimination
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 06:36:43 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 06:52:11 pm
Checking, tommorow at noon for my, around 17 hours. And I'll spend quite a few of those asleep. Really Vector? Was kinda looking forward to the last piece of evidence. Not a panic pick.(like what vector is hoping for.)
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 07:20:36 pm
Quote from: False Prophet Vector
"No, it's you. You're trying too hard OMGUS."
K(since Vector isn't on.) Not sure if Flavor should be used. But you might note something NQW. You were asking for flavor earlier. (https://youtu.be/85I20OJLVI8) There is good reason I chose this song.
So Faker, how will you respond to my evidence against you?
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 07:21:38 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 04, 2021, 07:22:03 pm
Post by: Vector on October 04, 2021, 08:12:33 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 04, 2021, 08:17:25 pm
In the scenario in which we do that, I have to delay Vector again, which I assume would work - kills take place after delays, so presumably delayed kills do too, letting me get a delay in before the mafiakill hits. I don't think I can delay the same action twice - it would be a hilarious stalemate if I could infinitely delay the mafiakill - so if Vector is mafia I'd likely die this night, or possibly Tric would. Else if Vector is not mafia, and mafia none'd or targeted a bulletproof last night, then someone would probably die tonight - there are reasons for this to be me or Vector, but could be someone else. In any case that lets us lynch someone the next day at LYLO. This however we'd have to get completely correct, and I'm not sure we'd have enough info to do that. I might well be nightkilled, and I think the remaining trio would be pretty volatile. On the other hand, if we lynch Vector today and they flip town then I have another shot at delaying the mafia and lynching them tomorrow, as I've explained. That seems to be better odds, and I'm quite confident Vector is mafia given Toony and Roden's claims and the fact the kill didn't happen last night.
So, in conclusion, yeah, I'm going to vote Vector so I don't forget to do so in the remainder of the day. Feel free to hammer, Roden, if you're scum - you'll out yourself pretty hard, and I have a delay power :P Otherwise let's leave the thread open for conversation please, there is a fair bit of time left in the day.
I'll read through Tric's latest stuff properly at some point, but I'm mostly focused on mechanical now.
Post by: Roden on October 04, 2021, 10:18:46 pm
PS: A good reason to check Roden over Tric is because of the [Roden, Metruption] contains a likely scum scenario. It wasn't Metruption so it's better to just ... go ahead and check.I'm confused. Why would knowing my role confirm my alignment? Why not check Jack, who was the opposing wagon? Why would you be uncertain about my alignment anyway when I was off the town wagon?
Next: folks who are asking me why I didn't check Tric, are you kidding me? Tric and I were mechanically confirmed townies in a game together and we lost. Confirming Roden's role is much more valuable for town because a confirmed bulletproof townie can eat an NK after being confirmed.
Based on playstyle I don't think it's NJW, so I'm voting for TricMagic.
Pretty sure I'm gonna hammer Vector because these answers don't sound like they come from a town mindset, but I want to let them argue their case first.
Post by: Vector on October 04, 2021, 11:26:08 pm
I play according to old B12 rules (I do what I want with my PR), not MafiaUniverse "use the other wagon" rules. I wanted to check you because I thought that you were playing softly and passively for a townie and
Being off a town wagon doesn't confirm you.
Post by: Roden on October 05, 2021, 12:04:17 am
Post by: Vector on October 05, 2021, 12:58:31 am
I think doing what you want over doing what would get you confirmed as town just cost us the game then, if you're town.
9_9
Sour grapes, my dude. If you hammer me and you don't like the result, that's seriously a you problem.
If you wanna point fingers, why not tell Metruption to play better? Not that I thought they did badly, but I'm not taking sole responsibility for the outcome of the game based on my N1 action.
Post by: Roden on October 05, 2021, 01:08:51 am
Post by: Roden on October 05, 2021, 06:17:07 am
Sorry, I don't want to do a final three scenario. If Vector flips green then it's my bad. If they're town, then if Tric is scum we actually still win because NJW can Delay him. If NJW is scum then I don't think he loses in a final three scenario anyway. So I don't really have a reason not to hammer here.
I did reread the game before voting, and I'm kinda paranoid NJW actually is scum since Vector scum read Jack while NJW town read Jack. But Vector is pushing Tric instead, which is just weird to me since I think they could've made a legitimate case against NJW. Plus I think Rolecop makes more sense for the scum team than a Delayer would since they already had a Roleblocker.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 05, 2021, 11:19:17 am
Quote from: Votecount
Roden (0):
TricMagic (1): Vector
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (3): TricMagic, NJW2000, Roden
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (0):
3 to hammer.
Of the four, it was decided that there was an odd one out - Vector. They laughed nervously - but the end was swift enough. In the open they had no chance.
But there was more than enough time to go through their belongings - something that, ironically, Vector probably specialized in.
Vector was Mafia.
Quote
Role Cop (mafia):
(Night) Investigate [target]: You rummage through and examine the target player’s private room, and learn their complete role, not including alignment.
The remaining three - TricMagic, NJW2000, and Roden breathed collective sighs of relief. Judging by Vector's radio and the codebook they had stashed, they were unlikely to have had any partners. Slowly, they provided this proof to the WUBA-Inc administration, and - a clock chimed just as the doors to the hotel opened.
Round 1 has ended! Town won, and as such, ToonyMan, Roden, TricMagic, NJW2000, and Metruption all gain 1 Victory Point!
But the game had not yet come to a close, time still spun and threaded back in on itself - and soon, it would coalesce into yet another scenario, another iteration of a deadly, never-ending trap...
New roles will be designed, then sent out at midnight, at which point Round 2 will begin.
All players may now post freely in the thread until the next Round of the game starts. I'll go ahead and post the Round summary in a bit - roles and actions and the mafiachat and all that - but I'll have to note that until the end of the whole game, I won't be commenting on the setup design, because my comments could be used explicitly or implicitly as part of arguments and I don't want to influence the game like that.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 05, 2021, 11:32:40 am
Good shit town, although I do feel bad that the mafia were busy this round.
Post by: TricMagic on October 05, 2021, 11:50:36 am
Any comments on my logic(chess) at the end? Always fun to get a chance to do those.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 05, 2021, 12:03:47 pm
Yeah, mafia being busy kinda screwed them over. Major issue is the Role Cop ruse got used twiceover in a game with cop and doctor already outed.It was good. I also wish Investigations 3 was real.
Any comments on my logic(chess) at the end? Always fun to get a chance to do those.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 05, 2021, 12:39:50 pm
Thanks for running the setup, @FoU, and sorry about posting after the day ended D2 - I genuinely thought town had lost. Looking forward to the next game!
Post by: ToonyMan on October 05, 2021, 01:04:22 pm
Were you able to delay every night? That seemed suspicious to me considering the rest of town had nerfed powers.
In fact, the rest of town wasn't able to make use of any of their powers.
Met wasn't able to cop anyone.
I wasn't able to protect anyone.
Roden nobody attempted to kill.
Tric was never targeted.
That goes to show you can still find success without town PRs.
Because let's be real, me as an Even Night Doctor is never going to protect anyone as that involves:
1. Not being the N1 or N2 nightkill target
2. Not being lynched D1 or D2
3. Correctly guessing the N2 kill target
So if I was alive for N2 I was just going to protect Tric regardless of whether I thought they would be the kill target or not, if they were targeted for the kill that would have been even better for town, if they weren't then we can still confirm each other didn't perform the kill since Tric will claim I targeted him first.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 05, 2021, 01:13:42 pm
...so, uh, when is the next round starting? ;D
Good shit town, although I do feel bad that the mafia were busy this round.
Oh yes, mafia was indeed boned in that regard.
@NJW:
Were you able to delay every night? That seemed suspicious to me considering the rest of town had nerfed powers.
From what I can tell, yup. I did the N1 kill.
In my humble opinion, the powers were too strong overall. Vector and I both had powers that worked all the time (although my roleblocker couldn't repeat targets, unlike NJW's delayer), bulletproof was infinite, and Met only failed in their cop duties because they, well, got lynched. I don't mean to nitpick, but if Met had just said "Hey guys, I'm a Cop!", they would have at least eaten the night kill maybe.
...or frankly, I still would have killed ToonyMan, if Vector agreed. And then Met could have used their Cop Powers.
Thinking out loud, ToonyMan's Doctor wasn't really that useless, it was just useless for ToonyMan. If, for example, I or NJW were the Town Even-Night Doctor, I imagine either of us would have successfully avoided the lynch, possibly the bullet, and might have lucked into the right N2 kill. NJW was good at skirting the line of neutrality to stay alive, and I'm generally low-priority (semi-useless) as Town.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 05, 2021, 01:35:11 pm
@NJW:I was, yes. It was strong, but not that strong given that unlike a protect, I could only buy town time in the short term unless I hit the kill repeatedly.
Were you able to delay every night? That seemed suspicious to me considering the rest of town had nerfed powers.
I would say most town did get some use out of their powers, or at least out of the fact that they had them. Tric had a very townie claim immediately and Roden ended up fairly heavily confirmed town by the end. You and Met also closed out a lot of the space of roles for Vector's claim by flipping town-cop.
Obviously, all the other players did a stellar job, and poor little me is woefully inadequate in every way. :'(Hey, you weren't bad. I think the self-vote might have been a bit premature, even: scum just needed to win one person over to their lynch on D2.
Post by: TricMagic on October 05, 2021, 01:52:47 pm
Post by: Vector on October 05, 2021, 01:57:34 pm
Post by: Roden on October 05, 2021, 02:19:17 pm
Yeah, mafia being busy kinda screwed them over. Major issue is the Role Cop ruse got used twiceover in a game with cop and doctor already outed.Yeah, it's unfortunate they couldn't be more active, it ultimately played a part in the town win since they got out-posted.
Any comments on my logic(chess) at the end? Always fun to get a chance to do those.
Also I thought your chess post was spot on. I compared it to what happened during the game in my last reread and it helped me solidify my decision to hammer.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 05, 2021, 02:48:45 pm
Quote from: Roles
Metruption:
1-Shot Cop (town):
(1-Shot, Night) Investigate [target]: You investigate your target’s private belongings, and learn their alignment (Town, Mafia, or Mafia-Ally). You only have enough forensics equipment to do this once, however.
ToonyMan:
Even-Night Doctor (town):
(Night) Protect [target]: You use your medical expertise and protect your target player from kill actions this Night.
(Auto) Even-Night: Due to fatigue, you can only take Night actions during even-numbered Night phases.
NJW2000:
Delayer (town):
(Night) Delay [target]: You bend time, temporally displacing the target player’s action this Night (if any) to the following Night. They are given an ‘action failed’ result if they acted, then the following Night, they perform their displaced action (even if they are dead).
Roden:
1-Shot Bulletproof Townie (town):
(1-Shot, Auto) Bulletproof: If you would be killed during the Night, the kill fails thanks to your bulletproof vest. This ability only works once.
TricMagic:
Automatic Self-Voyeur (town):
(Auto): Awareness: You use your psychic awareness to learn what categories of actions were performed on you during the Night at the end of each Night. Available categories: Investigative, Interference, Protective, Lethal, Other.
Vector:
Role Cop (mafia):
(Night) Investigate [target]: You rummage through and examine the target player’s private room, and learn their complete role, not including alignment.
EuchreJack:
Non-Consecutive Roleblocker (mafia):
(Night) Roleblock [target]: You knock out your target with a sleeping drug, blocking that player’s action tonight, preventing it entirely. They are given an ‘action failed’ result.
(Auto) Non-Consecutive: Due to your target potentially developing a tolerance to your drugs, you cannot affect the same player two Nights in a row.
Quote from: Actions
Night 1 attempted actions:
ToonyMan: None (odd Night)
NJW2000: Delay Vector
Roden: None (passive)
TricMagic: None (passive)
Vector: Investigate Roden
EuchreJack: Kill ToonyMan
Night 1 results:
ToonyMan is shot and killed
NJW2000 successfully delays his target
Roden has an uneventful night
TricMagic has an uneventful night (and receives no results)
Vector’s action is delayed to Night 2, and receives an action failed result
EuchreJack successfully kills ToonyMan
Night 2 attempted actions:
NJW2000: Delay Vector
Roden: None (passive)
TricMagic: None (passive)
Vector: Investigate TricMagic
Night 2 results:
NJW2000 successfully delays his target
Roden has an uneventful night
TricMagic has an uneventful night (and receives no results)
Vector’s action this Night (investigating TricMagic) is delayed to Night 3 and their action the previous Night is now performed, causing them to investigate Roden and learn Roden’s role.
Vector and Euchrejack can release the first round's scumchat if they want.
Post by: Vector on October 05, 2021, 03:52:58 pm
I have to go to class. Fuck grad school .-.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 05, 2021, 04:14:40 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 05, 2021, 04:24:38 pm
Obviously, all the other players did a stellar job, and poor little me is woefully inadequate in every way. :'(Hey, you weren't bad. I think the self-vote might have been a bit premature, even: scum just needed to win one person over to their lynch on D2.
My strategy behind the self-vote was to shut down info to town. I didn't see Roden under any circumstances switching, and I didn't see Tric voting anyone but me.
They both had strong town equity, so I didn't think you were gonna vote them (I don't read you as impulsive, so I'd expect your vote to be towards the end of the day).
Also, not for nothing, but wasn't it fairly obvious that Vector was mafia when the night phase got delayed? It's sort of why it had to either be Vector or NJW, as Roden and Tric were eager to go. I think Vector did a good job with what they had, but nothing can disburse that tingling behind the skull. Tric I think alluded to it by saying that Vector should blame NJW.
Post by: TricMagic on October 05, 2021, 04:56:49 pm
Scum Chat https://www.quicktopic.com/53/H/BL62cT7fGqKsuThose first eight messages :D
Post by: ToonyMan on October 05, 2021, 04:57:57 pm
Spoiler: Thoughts during N1 before dying (click to show/hide)
As a side note, Roden was only one-shot like I expected and Tric wasn't as powerful as he claimed since he couldn't see exactly who targeted him. A ton of town bluffing in this which is pretty funny.
Scum Chat https://www.quicktopic.com/53/H/BL62cT7fGqKsuThose first eight messages :D
Quote from: Jack in Scumchat
But thankfully, Tric generally needs another player to translate for him, so without Toony, Tric will probably flail ineffectively.Yeah, about that...
Quote from: Jack in Scumchat
I smell a doctor somewhere. Probably Toony or Roden.I am not very good at hiding Doctor status am I?
Post by: TricMagic on October 05, 2021, 05:11:30 pm
They might have silenced me simply because of my active posting compared to Vector and Jack if both are town. If both are town I think Roden is probably clean which would make the scum team NJW/Tric which is just demoralizing.
It would have been bad if we were the scum team huh? And I could see it happening, since I'd know abilities that target me, and we could use that info with the Delay to mess with people. ;D With so many 1-shots though it was never going to happen.
Wonder what the next round will be. Am I mafia? Or is Tric Tric?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 05, 2021, 10:14:50 pm
Yup, just Townlock Jack next time, and Town is assured to win.
Oh, and since the scum chat was leaked, I should say Good Job Tric. Unlike what I said, you were able to push your hunches reasonably well without help.
I like how you pushed your Ace Attorney shtick to the end of your posts as an appendix rather than taking away from the body and content of the posts.
Eh, I'm sure some players missed your Mafia Championship game.Quote from: Jack in ScumchatI smell a doctor somewhere. Probably Toony or Roden.I am not very good at hiding Doctor status am I?
They might have silenced me simply because of my active posting compared to Vector and Jack if both are town. If both are town I think Roden is probably clean which would make the scum team NJW/Tric which is just demoralizing.
It would have been bad if we were the scum team huh? And I could see it happening, since I'd know abilities that target me, and we could use that info with the Delay to mess with people. ;D With so many 1-shots though it was never going to happen.
Wonder what the next round will be. Am I mafia? Or is Tric Tric?
NJW/Tric would indeed be a powerful scum team. So long as it worked as a TEAM. A lone wolf dies alone, whereas a wolf pack can kill anything.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 06, 2021, 02:03:45 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 06, 2021, 07:32:29 am
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 08:38:01 am
I only ask that you share the horrible imbalance after the game is over.
It has to be after the tournament, in case FOU wishes to inflict it upon us later...
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 08:40:07 am
I personally expected a longer delay, anyways.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 06, 2021, 02:16:54 pm
The seven of you arrive in the lounge. You're certain of one thing - there must be at least one traitor among you. Likely more. Agents of the Mafiaco Deli, out to steal WUBA-Inc's secret mustard formula and ruin their business forever. You look at each other with wariness - and familiarity, somehow. Despite having never seen each other in your lives... there's a distinct sense you've met before. In another life, perhaps. But this doesn't make you friends - alliances must be made here and now, not in a past time that never happened. The clock chimes. Ticking closer to something. Who knows what it is?
Someone's dug some loaves of frozen bread out of a fridge and freezer that someone's already gotten to. Still, there's plenty of food left. WUBA-Inc wouldn't let you starve. Even if the food isn't the best. You're all looking forwards to fresh hot dogs once you get out - well, most of you, at least.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
Metruption (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (7): ToonyMan, Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, Metruption
4 to hammer.
Day 1 has begun, and will end at 2 PM Friday, Central time, approximately 48 hours from now - or at a hammer. Good luck and have fun.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 02:34:45 pm
TricMagic: What do you think specifically about the utility of Not Lynching?
Metruption: Are you ready to play some Mafia?
Post by: TricMagic on October 06, 2021, 02:39:18 pm
Also, I'm a psychologist this time around. Make of that what you will.
Vector, Jack, both of you are capable of engaging right? Who do you think is most likely to be mafia?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 02:43:35 pm
Thought: Some/Many/Most Town players have an active pro-town ability.
Roden: Thoughts on mass claiming?
Quite the question Jack. It has it's use for preserving the number of people who can action. Granted, as seen last game that's no excuse not to hunt.
I'd be more impressed if you actually explained mathematically whether or not it would be good for Town to No-Lynch under a standard 7 player scenario.
you are capable of engaging right? Who do you think is most likely to be mafia?And thus, you Tric at this point. I'll not answer on Vector's behalf, although will gladly use my scant knowledge of Evil Workaholic Mafia Vector's mind for town's benefit.
So yeah, if things stall, calling Vector as Mafia. Sorry Vector.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 02:46:24 pm
Also, I'm a psychologist this time around. Make of that what you will.
Awesome, might have a breaker strategy then. Let us see what everyone else has to say.
Post by: Roden on October 06, 2021, 02:52:12 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 03:14:45 pm
If we mass claim then we all actually need to mass claim. Claiming BP helped catch scum intentions last time, but the confusion from not everyone claiming as well as some fake claims from town could easily tank us if we don't get as lucky this time. I was thinking how we should try to go about it and I think a no vote Day 1 and then mass claim Day 2 might be the optimal strat, if we do it.
I'm actually heavily in favor of this strategy.
Still...Why is Roden the lover of mass claims hesitating to claim?
And...Why is Roden now favoring the "let mafia get the first kill instead of town" strategy?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 03:17:48 pm
Also: I see a flaw in Roden's plan, so I am now less in favor of it. Anyone else see it?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 03:21:49 pm
Toonyman: What do you think of my self-narrating?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 06, 2021, 03:22:16 pm
Alright, what do everyone think about the tactical utility of Not Lynching? Is is good/bad/indifferent?The usefulness of no-lynching varies with the situation. I've seen some probability-based analyses suggesting it might help town in very specific circumstances, but I think all of those were predicated on a reasonably simple, or at least open setup. We don't know which powers are in play, so we can't make that kind of analysis. What we do know is that no-lynching involves town not using its main or only path to winning the game, while mafia moves closer to their win condition. It also means that there is next to no information in the open - almost everything will be focused on the night if town consensus is for a no-lynch, while the stakes of D1 discussion become really low.
A D1 nolynch might make slightly more sense if there isn't a good case against anybody, but it's still denying town information and a shot at killing scum. So Bad.
If we mass claim then we all actually need to mass claim. Claiming BP helped catch scum intentions last time, but the confusion from not everyone claiming as well as some fake claims from town could easily tank us if we don't get as lucky this time. I was thinking how we should try to go about it and I think a no vote Day 1 and then mass claim Day 2 might be the optimal strat, if we do it.So... just going to jump on the no-lynch thing then?
Gotta say, it's kinda weird two players immediately starting to talk about no-lynch as soon as the day begins, seemingly independently. Jack bringing it up immediately is weird, but Roden suggesting doing it right after is just too much. Bit of a weird swing from "suprise massclaim" strategy, too. Why have you decided that it's better to let mafia kill someone before a pre-arranged massclaim D2, Roden?
Vector, Jack, both of you are capable of engaging right? Who do you think is most likely to be mafia?Why did you ask this, TricMagic? How is this ever a worthwhile question, outside of coaxing a completely new player into scumhunting?
Did you want EuchreJack to answer this when only you and he had posted? Or were you expecting answers post-RVS, and consider "post scumpicks pls" a useful scumhunting question? What was the thought process here?
NJW2000: What do you think of Roden's strategy to No Lynch Day 1, then mass claim Day 2?I answer this above.
Also: I see a flaw in Roden's plan, so I am now less in favor of it. Anyone else see it?
I see a flaw in that the plan is bad. I am interested to hear what you see.
ninja'd by Euchre raising similar points. Tho Roden kinda says why he's hesistant to claim.
Post by: TricMagic on October 06, 2021, 03:27:04 pm
Also, there is one major flaw in just No Voting. And that happens to be discussion Roden. Why the change of heart?
NiNJW2000.
And others, reading. Unvote.
Post by: TricMagic on October 06, 2021, 03:30:56 pm
I asked that to check more than anything else, and maybe pick up some info for later on.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 03:33:09 pm
Gotta say, it's kinda weird two players immediately starting to talk about no-lynch as soon as the day begins, seemingly independently. Jack bringing it up immediately is weird, but Roden suggesting doing it right after is just too much. Bit of a weird swing from "suprise massclaim" strategy, too. Why have you decided that it's better to let mafia kill someone before a pre-arranged massclaim D2, Roden?
Bullsocks regarding me.
I got lynched (or pushed to self-lynch) D2 because I assumed the best strategy for town was to lynch, so how exactly is it "weird" that I would bring it up "immediately"?
Would it not be normal for me to want to avoid that mistake, regardless of alignment but especially as Town?
But yes, Roden jumping onto it as a good strategy so quickly is suspicious.
NJW2000: What do you think of Roden's strategy to No Lynch Day 1, then mass claim Day 2?I answer this above.
Also: I see a flaw in Roden's plan, so I am now less in favor of it. Anyone else see it?
I see a flaw in that the plan is bad. I am interested to hear what you see.
ninja'd by Euchre raising similar points. Tho Roden kinda says why he's hesistant to claim.
Hm, lets see what everyone else says first, or whether Roden tries to "fix" it. But yeah, FOS Roden
Note: Aggressive voting by NJW2000 seems out of character, although against Roden maybe not so much (they "play differently")
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 03:37:02 pm
At a glance, it says everyone needs to claim on day 2. But for those with certain 1-shot abilities, (like any gun owners), that isn't really a good thing. That and the obvious issue of someone being dead, unless mafia chooses not to kill and blend in.
Nice, although incomplete (or maybe more complete than the flaw that I saw)
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 03:49:05 pm
...how's that for "baseless accusations and lashing out", Toonyman? :P
(not joking quite as much as I seem to be, Toonyman is generally more active and eager, although it really hasn't been very long)
Post by: Roden on October 06, 2021, 03:59:48 pm
I've already said why I haven't auto claimed yet. I have no problem claiming if we do a Day 1 mass claim though, I just don't want to be the only player full claiming again.If we mass claim then we all actually need to mass claim. Claiming BP helped catch scum intentions last time, but the confusion from not everyone claiming as well as some fake claims from town could easily tank us if we don't get as lucky this time. I was thinking how we should try to go about it and I think a no vote Day 1 and then mass claim Day 2 might be the optimal strat, if we do it.
I'm actually heavily in favor of this strategy.
Still...Why is Roden the lover of mass claims hesitating to claim?
And...Why is Roden now favoring the "let mafia get the first kill instead of town" strategy?
As far as why I'm suggesting to no vote today, it's because it's clear we have no VT's in this set up, so a mis-elim means we always lose a PR. As we saw last game, we lost our Cop Day 1, and then lost our Doc that night as well. If someone does something blatantly scummy then of course we should vote them out, but otherwise we just have a good chance of losing two strong PRs.
Mainly because this isn't a typical set up, and trying something different each game is just a better strategy. If everyone knows I'm going to suggest a mass claim each game start, everyone can just prepare fake claims out-of-game every single time. The point is to catch scum off guard, and that literally cannot happen if everyone knows what to expect each time.If we mass claim then we all actually need to mass claim. Claiming BP helped catch scum intentions last time, but the confusion from not everyone claiming as well as some fake claims from town could easily tank us if we don't get as lucky this time. I was thinking how we should try to go about it and I think a no vote Day 1 and then mass claim Day 2 might be the optimal strat, if we do it.So... just going to jump on the no-lynch thing then?
Gotta say, it's kinda weird two players immediately starting to talk about no-lynch as soon as the day begins, seemingly independently. Jack bringing it up immediately is weird, but Roden suggesting doing it right after is just too much. Bit of a weird swing from "suprise massclaim" strategy, too. Why have you decided that it's better to let mafia kill someone before a pre-arranged massclaim D2, Roden?
The idea of no-vote Day 1 into mass claim Day 2 is that it quite literally gives scum only minutes to come up with a fake claim that doesn't contradict the town mass claim + night action reveals. And with four town vs two scum that's one extra PR that can catch a slip up.
At a glance, it says everyone needs to claim on day 2. But for those with certain 1-shot abilities, (like any gun owners), that isn't really a good thing. That and the obvious issue of someone being dead, unless mafia chooses not to kill and blend in.I'm not suggesting to end the day early. We should essentially just talk until we let the timer run out.
Also, there is one major flaw in just No Voting. And that happens to be discussion Roden. Why the change of heart?
NiNJW2000.
And others, reading. Unvote.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 04:07:36 pm
To note, the info did come in handy towards the end of the game. But falseclaiming is not something town should do in the first place. Given that's kinda what we use to pick out scum.
I asked that to check more than anything else, and maybe pick up some info for later on.
Just spotted this, and thought that it best to repeat that Town, except for maybe the Doctor, should never falseclaim.
And back to the question of "What's wrong with Roden's plan?" I think the second part of Tric's sentence is "close enough" that I'll mention the #1 flaw with Roden's plan:
Mafia can falseclaim Day 2 AFTER the Night Actions. Town has the advantage claiming D1 in that they don't have to make their claims "fit" into the night actions.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 04:14:58 pm
As far as why I'm suggesting to no vote today, it's because it's clear we have no VT's in this set up, so a mis-elim means we always lose a PR. As we saw last game, we lost our Cop Day 1, and then lost our Doc that night as well. If someone does something blatantly scummy then of course we should vote them out, but otherwise we just have a good chance of losing two strong PRs.
Just an FYI, I totally thought VT meant Vigilante, and was wondering if you bothered to look up Tric's ability. Also, might be easier if players who claim a role actually give some info on that role, instead of hoping that mafiawiki is up to date. For example, last game NJW2000's Delayer wasn't actually a Mafia wiki role, but rather an ability.
Oh, and Cops should claim Cop rather than be mislynched. Let's just keep repeating that, ok?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 04:18:58 pm
The idea of no-vote Day 1 into mass claim Day 2 is that it quite literally gives scum only minutes to come up with a fake claim that doesn't contradict the town mass claim + night action reveals. And with four town vs two scum that's one extra PR that can catch a slip up.
Minutes? Were we playing the same game last round?
I'll give you this much credit, you obviously read the mafia wiki article that said that bulletproof shouldn't claim Day 1, and are showing proper shame. But your claim did help town (more than you think, read the scumchat), so why the regret?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 04:20:15 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 04:23:35 pm
Must...not...vote...Roden...must...let...other...players...post. :-X
Public Service Announcement: With 4 to hammer this round, and one vote on Roden, another vote means the 2-person scum team we saw last round would have the votes to hammer Roden. Keep this in mind and vote responsibly. Thank you!
Post by: Roden on October 06, 2021, 04:26:01 pm
I think this is actually not in scum's favor. Last game, you and Vector tried to make your role claim fit the night actions and it ended up being major evidence against you.To note, the info did come in handy towards the end of the game. But falseclaiming is not something town should do in the first place. Given that's kinda what we use to pick out scum.
I asked that to check more than anything else, and maybe pick up some info for later on.
Just spotted this, and thought that it best to repeat that Town, except for maybe the Doctor, should never falseclaim.
And back to the question of "What's wrong with Roden's plan?" I think the second part of Tric's sentence is "close enough" that I'll mention the #1 flaw with Roden's plan:
Mafia can falseclaim Day 2 AFTER the Night Actions. Town has the advantage claiming D1 in that they don't have to make their claims "fit" into the night actions.
Whoops, sorry, VT is Vanilla Townie for anyone confused. I usually just refer to a Vigilante as a Vig.As far as why I'm suggesting to no vote today, it's because it's clear we have no VT's in this set up, so a mis-elim means we always lose a PR. As we saw last game, we lost our Cop Day 1, and then lost our Doc that night as well. If someone does something blatantly scummy then of course we should vote them out, but otherwise we just have a good chance of losing two strong PRs.
Just an FYI, I totally thought VT meant Vigilante, and was wondering if you bothered to look up Tric's ability. Also, might be easier if players who claim a role actually give some info on that role, instead of hoping that mafiawiki is up to date. For example, last game NJW2000's Delayer wasn't actually a Mafia wiki role, but rather an ability.
Oh, and Cops should claim Cop rather than be mislynched. Let's just keep repeating that, ok?
Also 100% agree about the Cop thing. That one's still painful.
I did, and the fake claim got caught quickly lol.The idea of no-vote Day 1 into mass claim Day 2 is that it quite literally gives scum only minutes to come up with a fake claim that doesn't contradict the town mass claim + night action reveals. And with four town vs two scum that's one extra PR that can catch a slip up.
Minutes? Were we playing the same game last round?
I'll give you this much credit, you obviously read the mafia wiki article that said that bulletproof shouldn't claim Day 1, and are showing proper shame. But your claim did help town (more than you think, read the scumchat), so why the regret?
I don't really have any regret about claiming BP tbh.
Must...not...vote...Roden...must...let...other...players...post. :-XNow that I know your playstyle, this is most likely a town tell lol.
Post by: TricMagic on October 06, 2021, 04:34:55 pm
It is too late for this. I'd question NJW, but so far only a single post compared to the rest active right now.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 04:58:46 pm
A lot more normal than Scum Jack. Which kinda annoys me, we need more people posting.
It is too late for this. I'd question NJW, but so far only a single post compared to the rest active right now.
Frankly, the reason we need to keep D1 going for the entire time period is that otherwise we're likely not to even get a Vector post.
Which I think hurts Town regardless of Vector's alignment.
I hope we didn't scare off Metruption.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 06, 2021, 08:21:15 pm
Currently I can't tell, but time will reveal the truth. My eyes see all. He seems better than last game at least.
@Jack:
Alright, what do everyone think about the tactical utility of Not Lynching? Is is good/bad/indifferent?No.
Also: I have an active pro-town ability. Maybe I'll share more on D2. Declaring now so nobody thinks I'm making things up to avoid the lynch.Hmm you were unwilling to share anything on D1 of Round 1. This makes me think you're town now.
Thought: Some/Many/Most Town players have an active pro-town ability.
Toonyman: What do you think of my self-narrating?It shows you're eager to play.
@TricMagic:
Also, I'm a psychologist this time around. Make of that what you will.Heh, and I'm a biologist. Are you being honest with your profession here?
I have a distinct feeling you're lying about your real profession.
@Roden:
The idea of no-vote Day 1 into mass claim Day 2 is that it quite literally gives scum only minutes to come up with a fake claim that doesn't contradict the town mass claim + night action reveals. And with four town vs two scum that's one extra PR that can catch a slip up.Meh, I don't know. I like the idea of changing the D1 game plan each time though since in this game players are going to have recent memories of past rounds to use and exploit. Plus, a meta strategy is questionable with unknown setups each round. I think your intentions feel honest here which strikes me as town.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 08:27:33 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 08:31:41 pm
@Roden:The idea of no-vote Day 1 into mass claim Day 2 is that it quite literally gives scum only minutes to come up with a fake claim that doesn't contradict the town mass claim + night action reveals. And with four town vs two scum that's one extra PR that can catch a slip up.Meh, I don't know. I like the idea of changing the D1 game plan each time though since in this game players are going to have recent memories of past rounds to use and exploit. Plus, a meta strategy is questionable with unknown setups each round. I think your intentions feel honest here which strikes me as town.
Why I'm voting Toonyman. Roden has posted 3 times, not once pushing or accusing anyone of anything, and posting a "questionable" strategy that mafia may be able to exploit...and Toonyman TOWNREADS Roden.
Look, I dunno if Roden is mafia or town. Who does? MAFIA. Vote Toonyman!
Post by: EuchreJack on October 06, 2021, 08:33:06 pm
Post by: Vector on October 06, 2021, 09:00:59 pm
2. I do not like D1 massclaim either.
3. TricMagic doesn't sound crazy, which means that he's probably scum.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 06, 2021, 09:03:53 pm
Do you think mafia!Roden would try to rock the boat by announcing his new D1 game plan? Or do you think he would play more cautiously and reserved as mafia to not stand out? I also haven't seen Roden as mafia yet so I think this is a reasonable conclusion to make.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 06, 2021, 09:05:07 pm
3. TricMagic doesn't sound crazy, which means that he's probably scum.He didn't sound crazy to me in Round 1 either, does this change your feelings?
Post by: Vector on October 06, 2021, 09:12:15 pm
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 12:53:29 am
Could we maybe get an extension if Met still hasn't posted by the time the deadline comes around?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 01:59:44 am
@Jack:Only if the plan was flawed. Also, haven't seen mafia Roden yet.
Do you think mafia!Roden would try to rock the boat by announcing his new D1 game plan? Or do you think he would play more cautiously and reserved as mafia to not stand out? I also haven't seen Roden as mafia yet so I think this is a reasonable conclusion to make.
And I can see your soft-and-careful probing, so unvoting Toonyman for now.
Does the game still work if Met doesn't post? Even if we do decide to vote Day 1, we're missing someone who could be scum, and if they're town it means the entirety of town would have to come together to successfully vote out scum. Well, unless scum busses, technically.It worked well enough last round with Vector, so I don't seem a huge need for alarm bells. ::)
Could we maybe get an extension if Met still hasn't posted by the time the deadline comes around?
@FallacyofUrist: Pokey Met sometime please?
Also, should Met be town and not post, we'd have to consider policy lynching Met instead of more interesting suspects. Not opposed to the extension.
1. I'm very against no-kill D1.
2. I do not like D1 massclaim either.
3. TricMagic doesn't sound crazy, which means that he's probably scum.
This all sets off Mafia vibes for me. How I read all 3 of those points:
1) Lets kill more townies!
2) Lets give mafia more spaces to hide in!
3) Uh, let's push the lynch on Tric!
(Note, it isn't so much that I've cleared Tric but rather Tric has claimed and is thus clear-able to some extent)
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 05:12:59 am
Also, should Met be town and not post, we'd have to consider policy lynching Met instead of more interesting suspects. Not opposed to the extension.How do we determine Met is town before policy lynching them? Why would we want to vote a town player?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 05:14:54 am
Honestly? No. I have plenty of town-Tric to compare him with.Go on...
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 10:12:29 am
Do you think you're voting Roden for legitimate new reasons or are you not reflecting on what transpired in Round 1 with your feelings towards Roden? Remember that you even wanted Roden over Met on D1.
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 11:23:24 am
That said, voting Toonyman cause he townreads Roden sounds plausible for jack.
As for NJW, he felt off to me all last game. And still feels off to me, so nothing has actually changed there.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 11:40:15 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 12:31:18 pm
My question to you Tric is why openly state your flavor role in the first place?That is the question isn't it? Why did I do so?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 12:54:08 pm
I think it's because you don't want to reveal your actual ability, but sure be annoying and difficult. This is different from last game where you were much more forthcoming. I'm probing to get a better idea of your motivations.My question to you Tric is why openly state your flavor role in the first place?That is the question isn't it? Why did I do so?
This round has been boring. My flavor has my stated profession (biologist) along with my actual profession. Hence my extreme raised eyebrow at you simply claiming Psychologist and nothing else.
Also I have a day-kill. Should I use it today? Who's a good player for me to kill Tric? Somebody who isn't playing?
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 01:01:16 pm
Of course, given the game style, such isn't a good thing in the first place. Normally getting rid of someone who isnt.. Maybe save it for the end of the day and.. Well, near the end, you can just shoot the one being lycnhed and we can move into discussing who voted them and why, and pick someone else to lynch if we want.
Or you can use it on me for no reason. Or Roden, since they haven't actually posted anything with info today, just an informational.
Alternatively, you're bluffing. I'd typically keep a daykill to my chest for the first day. Bit odd though.
Post by: Vector on October 07, 2021, 01:12:57 pm
1. I'm very against no-kill D1.
2. I do not like D1 massclaim either.
3. TricMagic doesn't sound crazy, which means that he's probably scum.
This all sets off Mafia vibes for me. How I read all 3 of those points:
1) Lets kill more townies!
2) Lets give mafia more spaces to hide in!
3) Uh, let's push the lynch on Tric!
(Note, it isn't so much that I've cleared Tric but rather Tric has claimed and is thus clear-able to some extent)
. . . . . Let me just translate your post ...
1. Let's kill discussion and take away Town's best resource against scum!
2. Let's tell the mafia exactly who to kill!
3. Let's chainsaw Tric!
Get back in your lane my dude, this isn't the kiddie pool.
Honestly? No. I have plenty of town-Tric to compare him with.Go on...
Go on? The most notable one is his hat-kid insanity, the second most notable was when he claimed Knight D1 in supernatural. Town Tric is obsessed with outing and using his PR and with going "are you scum huh huh huh susssssss." Scum Tric sounds "sometimes reasonable."
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 01:27:00 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 01:34:21 pm
.... Fine, I can redirect someone's action to me. Kinda a weak man's doctor. Especially since it's a one-shot. You happy Vector? And what's with the talk against Jack anyway?Are you only just a psychologist?
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 01:39:57 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 01:49:18 pm
My ability is also one-shot and easily confirmable. I was thinking to target someone right before day end since I feel like mafia will just want to kill me N1 again and I'm selfish enough to want to actually take someone out myself. I had a 100% mafia read rate last round after all.
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 02:13:59 pm
I kind of agree with Vector that Tric's tone seems different this game. It could be because his role is less powerful than time around. Redirection kind of sounds like a scum ability too, but so did Delayer and that ended up being a town role. Idk how much you everyone is into set up spec but it kind of feels like town is being given scummy roles as red herrings while scum is being given townie roles as safe claims. Which makes sense to avoid having mass claims easily put a spotlight on both scum.
Also, @Tric: I think saving the day kill for tomorrow might be optimal. But, why would you claim it today if you weren't sure if you were going to use it yet?
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 02:14:39 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 02:28:52 pm
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 02:41:03 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 07, 2021, 02:55:13 pm
@FallacyofUrist: Pokey Met sometime please?I'll prod them. If they show up, no problem. If they don't show up by day end, I'll replace them with someone - I already have someone lined up for the position. (And then I'll do a 24 hour extension for the sake of the replacement.)
Also, should Met be town and not post, we'd have to consider policy lynching Met instead of more interesting suspects. Not opposed to the extension.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 03:09:33 pm
Fair point. I can't really tell you who to shoot but I at least heavily recommend against shooting Jack, their tone has been fairly town. And I doubt scum would have a day kill so it would essentially confirm you as town if you did shoot someone.
Thanks Roden. It looks like I'm not on Toonyman's "People to shoot" list this round.
But...how do we know that Toonyman's daykill is Town-aligned? Maybe FOU gave the mafia a daykill?
Hey Roden, who do you think is mafia? Failure to answer is Treason, punishable by Summary Execution under
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 03:12:48 pm
.... Fine, I can redirect someone's action to me. Kinda a weak man's doctor. Especially since it's a one-shot. You happy Vector? And what's with the talk against Jack anyway?
I wish you had said that at the beginning, as Psychologist is a completely different ability on Mafia Wiki.
When you redirect, does that kill you if it was the Night Kill?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 03:18:39 pm
Which means that only some of us have stated public professions.
I think most of us aren't bothering to quote stuff from the flavor text. My Role is an official one, with matching ability.
How close are you to Reads List territory? I've got to sit back and reread a bit before I post mine.
Among those whom have posted, but I'm really unsure about, I'd put Vector at the top of that list. Good posts, but not alignment indicative.
@FallacyofUrist: Could we get a vote count? Also thanks for being on top of the pokeable player situation!
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 03:20:32 pm
Yep, actions end up targeting me. So a night kill would kill me..... Fine, I can redirect someone's action to me. Kinda a weak man's doctor. Especially since it's a one-shot. You happy Vector? And what's with the talk against Jack anyway?
I wish you had said that at the beginning, as Psychologist is a completely different ability on Mafia Wiki.
When you redirect, does that kill you if it was the Night Kill?
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 03:25:47 pm
No problem.Fair point. I can't really tell you who to shoot but I at least heavily recommend against shooting Jack, their tone has been fairly town. And I doubt scum would have a day kill so it would essentially confirm you as town if you did shoot someone.
Thanks Roden. It looks like I'm not on Toonyman's "People to shoot" list this round.
But...how do we know that Toonyman's daykill is Town-aligned? Maybe FOU gave the mafia a daykill?
Hey Roden, who do you think is mafia? Failure to answer is Treason, punishable by Summary Execution underFriend ComputerToonyman's Day Laser, apparently.
If mafia have a day kill then there's no way they also have night kills, especially in a seven player set up. I think that's only possible with one scum, which in that case Toony would essentially just be a rampaging Serial Killer. Day kill would also most likely be gated, such as being unable to do it in an endgame scenario. But then again, in that case why would Toony essentially scum claim? It would be ballsy as hell to admit they have a day kill as scum.
Before Tric's claim I would've said probably him, but Vector feels like a safer bet. They haven't posted much besides just being contrarian to a proposed strategy and sussing Tric. I think their suspicion on Tric is fair, since I noticed the tone thing as well, but again, there's just not much else content to look at there.
NJW only has one post but it was a pretty meaty wall post at least. I'd like more from them as well but I don't have any suspicions there as of right now.
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 03:28:11 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 03:33:52 pm
Fair point. I can't really tell you who to shoot but I at least heavily recommend against shooting Jack, their tone has been fairly town.I agree.
And I doubt scum would have a day kill so it would essentially confirm you as town if you did shoot someone.Exactly. Another reason I felt like claiming since it removes a player from the D1 lynch pool. Or at least, if we start seeing people die during the night. If the mafia feel like framing me by not killing at night then be my guest.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 03:35:19 pm
Actually Vector and Tric could be distancing. I was about to say their interactions weren't scum vs scum but Day 1 distancing is really easy to do, especially since no one usually feels like they have to commit to have a vote.Quite interesting that you should say that, since I was just thinking the same thing about you and NJW. But I appreciate the info, it should help suss out your alignment once the bodies start to fall.
Suggested Daykill for Toonyman: NJW2000
@NJW2000: Your one-and-only post was a while ago, has your position changed in any way?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 03:36:12 pm
But...how do we know that Toonyman's daykill is Town-aligned? Maybe FOU gave the mafia a daykill?Ah, I miss these absurd reasonings. You're either town!Jack or playing mafia well.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 03:38:25 pm
Actually Vector and Tric could be distancing. I was about to say their interactions weren't scum vs scum but Day 1 distancing is really easy to do, especially since no one usually feels like they have to commit to have a vote.Possibly.
I'm currently eyeing NJW and Met since suspecting low posters worked so well last round.
Gee I wonder who that could be.@FallacyofUrist: Pokey Met sometime please?I'll prod them. If they show up, no problem. If they don't show up by day end, I'll replace them with someone - I already have someone lined up for the position. (And then I'll do a 24 hour extension for the sake of the replacement.)
Also, should Met be town and not post, we'd have to consider policy lynching Met instead of more interesting suspects. Not opposed to the extension.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 07, 2021, 04:02:40 pm
People also need to calm down a bit with the floods of posts - about fifteen new replies came in while I was writing this. Asking the mod to poke someone less than 1/4 of the way through a day is a bit too keen, in my opinion.
I'll vote NJW for going at Roden again, I think he might be doing this to look natural.I think I voted Roden for good reasons, yes. He did answer my question and explain the reasoning behind his strategy, but my vote is going to stay on him for now.
Do you think you're voting Roden for legitimate new reasons or are you not reflecting on what transpired in Round 1 with your feelings towards Roden? Remember that you even wanted Roden over Met on D1.
If you think I might be mafia repeating my past behaviour to look like town, why are you asking me to reflect on my thought processes?
Today isn't really cohering into a narrative so much as an endless jumble of one-line posts for me right now, so I'm going to go through it player by player and give a reads list.
Spoiler: reads (click to show/hide)
I'm currently eyeing NJW and Met since suspecting low posters worked so well last round.Now this is genuinely mystifying. There are over twenty hours left in the day, and FoU specifically said there was a replacement and an extension available if Met didn't show. I've always seen you as someone capable of basic reading comprehension, but apparently the dopamine buzz of constant back-and-forth interferes with those faculties.
@TricMagic: Answer my question here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8318131#msg8318131). I still want to know why you made that post.
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 04:15:52 pm
Since Tric and Toony have essentially full claimed, I will too. I'm a Tracker, and I am gated, but I won't say how so that a potential Roleblocker has to guess on whether or not I can even do anything tonight.
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 04:17:53 pm
To note, the info did come in handy towards the end of the game. But falseclaiming is not something town should do in the first place. Given that's kinda what we use to pick out scum.
I asked that to check more than anything else, and maybe pick up some info for later on.
... I did answer it. And I don't particularly like the fact.. You say it's early in the day, why post a readlist that is so volatile? Particularly your read on toonyman. I'm with jack on this one. Suggested Daykill for Toonyman: NJW2000
Nin. Guess it's roleclaims. Why? Has a headache.
Right, I blame Vector for this. I'll work with it though.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 07, 2021, 04:39:35 pm
I see. If you're replying to a question, please give some kind of indication of who you're talking to in the future.To note, the info did come in handy towards the end of the game. But falseclaiming is not something town should do in the first place. Given that's kinda what we use to pick out scum.
I asked that to check more than anything else, and maybe pick up some info for later on.
... I did answer it.
This doesn't do anything to explain why you asked "who're your scumpicks" as the second post of the game. What did you want to check? Why did you need to check whether Jack had scumpicks when nobody but the two of you had posted?
You say it's early in the day, why post a readlist that is so volatile? Particularly your read on toonyman.This just seems weak. People have given me a fair bit of content to work with; enough for a readslist. Baiting me on timings is genuinely a little irritating. Just because other people have the free time and inclination to post literally dozens of times in as many hours doesn't mean I'm going to.
I have no idea why you think my readslist is volatile. If you've just picked out the read on Toonyman, I make it pretty clear that I don't expect him to back out of the daykill, so don't see that read as volatile at all. Perhaps you could read other people's posts as closely as you expect them to read your own.
Post by: Metruption on October 07, 2021, 04:52:20 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 04:53:44 pm
If you think I might be mafia repeating my past behaviour to look like town, why are you asking me to reflect on my thought processes?Because I think you're wrong about Roden, again. I'm trying to determine if this is intentional or not.
I was bored at work and nobody was posting.I'm currently eyeing NJW and Met since suspecting low posters worked so well last round.Now this is genuinely mystifying. There are over twenty hours left in the day, and FoU specifically said there was a replacement and an extension available if Met didn't show. I've always seen you as someone capable of basic reading comprehension, but apparently the dopamine buzz of constant back-and-forth interferes with those faculties.
Perhaps you could read other people's posts as closely as you expect them to read your own.Welcome to Tric.
@Roden:
I definitely do want to make a no lynch happen today, that's part of the strat. I think it would be scummy if I suggested it but then weakly pushed for it IMO, since it would be clear I didn't really believe in what I was saying. However things do change with the possibility of a day kill. We should mass claim before the shot so we don't kill the Cop or Doc.True enough. I'd feel bad if I killed a cop or doc.
Since Tric and Toony have essentially full claimed, I will too. I'm a Tracker, and I am gated, but I won't say how so that a potential Roleblocker has to guess on whether or not I can even do anything tonight.Sounds good, I believe this.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 04:54:02 pm
Wait, why are there many rounds?haha
hahahahahaha
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 05:01:06 pm
Suggested Daykill for Toonyman: NJW2000
Suggested Daykill for Toonyman: NJW2000What is this bullshit? You're telling me to kill a man and you color it brown?
And Tric, why did you color it the same as Jack?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 05:23:15 pm
@Jack and Tric:Suggested Daykill for Toonyman: NJW2000Suggested Daykill for Toonyman: NJW2000What is this bullshit? You're telling me to kill a man and you color it brown?
And Tric, why did you color it the same as Jack?
Ouch, didn't even think of that. I just picked a color. Yeah, poor choice on my part.
I commend Tric for being consistent, although we should pick another color. I like the idea that it is color-coded though. You can certainly suggest the color, or ignore us.
Unsure if NJW2000 is generally behind the eight-ball or mafia, so Suggested Daykill remains.
Wait, why are there many rounds?
Welcome to the party, Met. I figured you'd show up when I saw you joining another mafia game.
Yeah, this is actually a Mafia Tournament, not a single mafia game. Let us know when you've caught up a bit.
If you think you need an extension, let FallacyofUrist know.
@Toonyman: Don't shoot Met, please. At least not for "a while".
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 05:33:03 pm
Ouch, didn't even think of that. I just picked a color. Yeah, poor choice on my part.Oh...hah, that's not even what I meant it's just hard to read with my forum layout.
I commend Tric for being consistent, although we should pick another color. I like the idea that it is color-coded though. You can certainly suggest the color, or ignore us.You could just bold it. I think your reasoning for me to kill NJW is weak, same for Tric.
Unsure if NJW2000 is generally behind the eight-ball or mafia, so Suggested Daykill remains.
@Toonyman: Don't shoot Met, please. At least not for "a while".But it's okay to shoot NJW?
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 05:34:04 pm
And consistency with Jack, yeah. And yes, there are multiple rounds going on in hopes of kickstarting the forum. Or at least getting our mafia fix.
I'm wondering about the awhile bit myself. Jack, who do you want to die? Or would you be happy with anyone?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 06:03:51 pm
@Toonyman: Met's one post was just a greeting, and frankly I'd like to welcome another mafia player rather than scare them off.
First you must engage the person to join the conversation, THEN you scare them into spilling their guts. But you know that, you're a decent interrogator/investigator.
Hm, if daykilling NJW200 is a "bad' idea, then what about Vector?I can't bold my targets, since I try to bold my responses, as to others I'm getting a Null read, which is normal mafia!Vector behavior. And look at how much trouble Vector as mafia gave town last round, when Town basically had the game "Won" with all the info needed.
Town will need time to mentally process the day kill, but the longer the delay the more the information. I trust Toonyman's judgement in this area.
@Roden: How does your No-Lynch strategy unfold should Toonyman "hits" mafia? Or what if Toonyman "hits" Town?
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 07:02:30 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 07, 2021, 07:08:25 pm
If Toony shoots scum, we should definitely vote today. But if he hits town, we can't vote. If Toony misfires and then we mislynch, scum wins by shooting town tonight unless a protective role comes in clutch.Roden.. Just a question. Why do you assume there are two mafia? What applies to one game may not apply to the other.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 07:38:07 pm
I think I can post a reads list now:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 07:53:47 pm
I will always assume two mafia. I've suggested there could be a Serial Killer scenario, but without proof it's always safer to assume two mafia so that we don't accidentally endgame ourselves Day 1.If Toony shoots scum, we should definitely vote today. But if he hits town, we can't vote. If Toony misfires and then we mislynch, scum wins by shooting town tonight unless a protective role comes in clutch.Roden.. Just a question. Why do you assume there are two mafia? What applies to one game may not apply to the other.
@Roden: Should a roleblocker claim?Last Roleblocker was scum, so they can go ahead lol. If a town Roleblocker exists I'd be really confused.
Since you scum read me, do you not believe my Tracker claim? I could target you tonight to prove it, if you have an active ability.
Post by: Roden on October 07, 2021, 07:59:47 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 07, 2021, 08:01:47 pm
Spoiler: semi-mechanical speculations about the daykill (click to show/hide)
@Vector: Last game, as mafia, you didn't claim D1, held your vote on one person the whole day, and mildly FoS'd your scumbuddy. So far in this game you've held your vote on one person and not claimed. I don't really know your playstyle. If your alignment is different this game, is there going to be a difference between your D1s that indicates that?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 08:09:08 pm
This is just an aside, but I haven't actually seen Toony's scum play yet, and every game I'm wondering if this is gonna be the one even though I'm not really noticing any differences in his playstyle.You and me both, bro. You and me both.
And sure, feel free to follow me around during the night phase.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 07, 2021, 08:17:49 pm
You don't think there's two mafia Tric? I think it has to be that or one mafia + one mafia-ally.If Toony shoots scum, we should definitely vote today. But if he hits town, we can't vote. If Toony misfires and then we mislynch, scum wins by shooting town tonight unless a protective role comes in clutch.Roden.. Just a question. Why do you assume there are two mafia? What applies to one game may not apply to the other.
@Roden:
This is just an aside, but I haven't actually seen Toony's scum play yet, and every game I'm wondering if this is gonna be the one even though I'm not really noticing any differences in his playstyle.Hehehe, I feel the same about you Roden.
Although you do have the advantage on me in the form of past games. I've been mafia a couple times this year, but only once in a significant game: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 2. That's seriously it. I'll be a bit miffed if I don't roll mafia a single time in these rounds.
Reads
Roden - town as fuck
Jack - mega town
Vector - I don't knooow
Met - "why are there many rounds?"
Tric - suspicious
NJW - bullseye
Met are you able to play additional rounds? I want an extension at this point.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 08:52:05 pm
Met are you able to play additional rounds? I want an extension at this point.
@FallacyofUrist: Agree with Toonyman on this. Its unfair to not grant one at this point. A single 24 hours due to the misunderstanding would be fair.
Also, I consider it a personal victory to obtain Mega Town without resorting to Drunk Posting. It does however set the bar high when I invariably roll mafia in the future.
Now to re-read NJW2000's post to see how they progressed from "Bad Reasons to shoot" into "Bullseye".
Post by: EuchreJack on October 07, 2021, 08:55:49 pm
@Vector: Last game, as mafia, you didn't claim D1, held your vote on one person the whole day, and mildly FoS'd your scumbuddy. So far in this game you've held your vote on one person and not claimed. I don't really know your playstyle. If your alignment is different this game, is there going to be a difference between your D1s that indicates that?
Ah, hypocrisy. NJW2000 is doing the same thing they're accusing Vector of doing. Hasn't claimed D1, is holding their vote on Roden the whole day, and hopefully FoS'd their scumbuddy. An attractive target indeed.
Post by: Metruption on October 08, 2021, 12:08:23 am
Post by: Metruption on October 08, 2021, 12:12:44 am
in 5v2 you absolutely want to yeet every time
I'd be more impressed if you actually explained mathematically whether or not it would be good for Town to No-Lynch under a standard 7 player scenario.
if you don't yeet the it's 4v2 next day which means you either yeet correctly (which is harder to do than in 3v2 because more townies to hit) so you can choose to not yeet and then give scum another night kill. just having the wagon analysis is so nice
Post by: Metruption on October 08, 2021, 12:22:28 am
i hope they do something like that so that we know who they are lolMust...not...vote...Roden...must...let...other...players...post. :-X
Public Service Announcement: With 4 to hammer this round, and one vote on Roden, another vote means the 2-person scum team we saw last round would have the votes to hammer Roden. Keep this in mind and vote responsibly. Thank you!
Post by: Metruption on October 08, 2021, 12:33:47 am
who claimed psychologist and then said they were actually a redirector? that's policy yeetable tbh
also biologist is not really related to psychology. like maybe one could argue that psychology is a form of biology but if someone wants to get that pedantic then i will remind them that literally everything is just applied set theory
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 01:11:57 am
who claimed psychologist and then said they were actually a redirector? that's policy yeetable tbh
That would have been Tric.
Glad to have you with us!
Post by: Metruption on October 08, 2021, 04:08:51 am
jack
Post by: NJW2000 on October 08, 2021, 04:42:37 am
Except I was asking Vector a question, not directly accusing them of something. And furthermore, I played that way as town last game, unlike Vector. So... what you posted was garbage beneath a thin veneer of surface logic. I'd like this to be the kind of environment where that's a scumtell against you, but sadly it really isn't.@Vector: Last game, as mafia, you didn't claim D1, held your vote on one person the whole day, and mildly FoS'd your scumbuddy. So far in this game you've held your vote on one person and not claimed. I don't really know your playstyle. If your alignment is different this game, is there going to be a difference between your D1s that indicates that?
Ah, hypocrisy. NJW2000 is doing the same thing they're accusing Vector of doing. Hasn't claimed D1, is holding their vote on Roden the whole day, and hopefully FoS'd their scumbuddy. An attractive target indeed.
If you want to know why Toony's stance changed, if change it did, try asking him, not guessing.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 06:35:19 am
I don't like jack's play. It's similar to last game but instead of never taking a real stance this game jack is taking many weak stances. NJW seems like a player I will have difficulty reading. Ultimately I'll have to do some kind of agenda meta analysis. The way Tric tunnels on roden is notableI think the way Jack is flopping around is indicative they're town.
I trust Roden who believes in Jack.
I trust Jack based on their behavior.
If I trust Vector then I should suspect Tric.
I don't trust Tric.
I'm mixed on NJW (I would shoot Tric or Met over NJW right now).
I think there's at least one mafia between Tric and Met.
@NJW:
Between Tric and Met who do you think is a more likely hit?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 08, 2021, 07:43:25 am
Day 2 will now end 2 PM Saturday, Central time - or on hammer.
Don't ask me for a vote count yet, I just accidentally forgot to sleep and I think I need to catch up on that. I'll see about getting you all one later today.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 08:36:04 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 08:36:11 am
Hmm... I'd play revisualization, but this isn't the end of the case. I'll do it anyway though.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 08:47:48 am
so you're just ignoring my soulread on you?
jack
Except I was asking Vector a question, not directly accusing them of something. And furthermore, I played that way as town last game, unlike Vector. So... what you posted was garbage beneath a thin veneer of surface logic. I'd like this to be the kind of environment where that's a scumtell against you, but sadly it really isn't.@Vector: Last game, as mafia, you didn't claim D1, held your vote on one person the whole day, and mildly FoS'd your scumbuddy. So far in this game you've held your vote on one person and not claimed. I don't really know your playstyle. If your alignment is different this game, is there going to be a difference between your D1s that indicates that?
Ah, hypocrisy. NJW2000 is doing the same thing they're accusing Vector of doing. Hasn't claimed D1, is holding their vote on Roden the whole day, and hopefully FoS'd their scumbuddy. An attractive target indeed.
If you want to know why Toony's stance changed, if change it did, try asking him, not guessing.
God, I hope NJW2000 and Met are on the same (scum) team. That would make this so so hilarious.
Yes Met, I'm going to ignore your "soul reads". Frankly, if you're not asking a question, then why should I be responding? But hey, glad you're "on the case". Just, you know, actually work on a case. Start investigating. Ask Questions. But I'm not quite ready to put you in the scumbox, since I'd rate you about 25% caught up to the rest of us. Get back to reading, try to keep up, and hey maybe you too can help town.
@NJW2000: Everything is a scumtell, but how much of a scumtell? For me, your overt defensiveness this round is a scumtell. But I basically lost the first half of Day 1 last round, so maybe I just didn't pick up on that being your style. It just seems to me that you're more focused on defending yourself, and controlling the narrative, than helping town win. But you're not dead yet, so you must be doing something right.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 08:53:07 am
I'm kind of interested in how we went from trust tric to tric to kill tric for tricking.Do you think you're playing differently than last round? If so, is this a conscious decision?
Hmm... I'd play revisualization, but this isn't the end of the case. I'll do it anyway though.
Who is a more likely mafia hit between NJW and Met?
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 09:03:33 am
Question, why Townread Roden so early on, despite disagreeing with him on not lynching.@Roden:The idea of no-vote Day 1 into mass claim Day 2 is that it quite literally gives scum only minutes to come up with a fake claim that doesn't contradict the town mass claim + night action reveals. And with four town vs two scum that's one extra PR that can catch a slip up.Meh, I don't know. I like the idea of changing the D1 game plan each time though since in this game players are going to have recent memories of past rounds to use and exploit. Plus, a meta strategy is questionable with unknown setups each round. I think your intentions feel honest here which strikes me as town.
Why I'm voting Toonyman. Roden has posted 3 times, not once pushing or accusing anyone of anything, and posting a "questionable" strategy that mafia may be able to exploit...and Toonyman TOWNREADS Roden.
Look, I dunno if Roden is mafia or town. Who does? MAFIA. Vote Toonyman!
Wait no, that was NJW. Who you have as your current best target.
Turning this on it's head. Do mafia have a nightkill? We have a lot of roles that can mess with things so far. Vector isn't talking, and you bring this out an ask who we want dead. Even though...I think it's because you don't want to reveal your actual ability, but sure be annoying and difficult. This is different from last game where you were much more forthcoming. I'm probing to get a better idea of your motivations.My question to you Tric is why openly state your flavor role in the first place?That is the question isn't it? Why did I do so?
This round has been boring. My flavor has my stated profession (biologist) along with my actual profession. Hence my extreme raised eyebrow at you simply claiming Psychologist and nothing else.
Also I have a day-kill. Should I use it today? Who's a good player for me to kill Tric? Somebody who isn't playing?
Hmm. Do we have a doctor or not is my question. Right now we have a redirect, a track, and vig. Of the remaining, if two are mafia alligned. Granted, one of us could be.. Are you attempting to draw the doctor to target you?
... Not that that makes sense with the idea there is no mafia kill, but still. Perhaps as an ally. (Not enough info here. Day 2 gives a lot more based on what happens at night.)
Surprisingly similar to your last round's ability albeit in a different way. I think you're being honest here. Which means that only some of us have stated public professions.To note. I'm pretty sure this is patently untrue of your N1 reads. You have a 50% read rate, never tying Jack/Vector together in one team. (Even if I like the idea of an NJW/Tric team, which would have been funny. But I'm not that good an actor to hem and haw over not trusting NJW.)
My ability is also one-shot and easily confirmable. I was thinking to target someone right before day end since I feel like mafia will just want to kill me N1 again and I'm selfish enough to want to actually take someone out myself. I had a 100% mafia read rate last round after all.
It's not so absurd if the mafia don't have a kill. And this probobly explains where the idea came from. Or at least not a traditional one. A poisoner kill would mean someone with a daykill would be useful near game end.But...how do we know that Toonyman's daykill is Town-aligned? Maybe FOU gave the mafia a daykill?Ah, I miss these absurd reasonings. You're either town!Jack or playing mafia well.
... Met hadn't actually had time to post. So why do you assume him to be Mafia? I mean, you assume me too, but I haven't had any interactions with him. No one has. Well, other than jack, but that's quite recent. He's still in the push stage of voting.I don't like jack's play. It's similar to last game but instead of never taking a real stance this game jack is taking many weak stances. NJW seems like a player I will have difficulty reading. Ultimately I'll have to do some kind of agenda meta analysis. The way Tric tunnels on roden is notableI think the way Jack is flopping around is indicative they're town.
I trust Roden who believes in Jack.
I trust Jack based on their behavior.
If I trust Vector then I should suspect Tric.
I don't trust Tric.
I'm mixed on NJW (I would shoot Tric or Met over NJW right now).
I think there's at least one mafia between Tric and Met.
@NJW:
Between Tric and Met who do you think is a more likely hit?
Nin. More posts.
Jack is getting in on analyzing too it seems. Sorta?
As for your question, sorta? I was mostly just listening to the musical tracks.(this sentence sorta irks me for some reason. Grammer mostly.)
Also, it's neither. NJW is still playing their game and Met just showed up.. That said Met might be able to make a case on Jack if he's playing better as mafia.
Neither player has a higher chance of being mafia to me though. As suspicious as I find NJW, it's still just a gut instinct, and he played that way last game too.
Post by: Vector on October 08, 2021, 09:26:49 am
@Vector: Last game, as mafia, you didn't claim D1, held your vote on one person the whole day, and mildly FoS'd your scumbuddy. So far in this game you've held your vote on one person and not claimed. I don't really know your playstyle. If your alignment is different this game, is there going to be a difference between your D1s that indicates that?
I'm town.
I'm also a veteran at this game. No, you shouldn't expect to be able to read me. Why does everyone think I'm not going to be good at this after 10 years @_@
I still think it's Tric and I'm sticking with it. P. sure Metruption is town, think Toony is town, ... Euchrejack is probably town, he's all over the place as town. I guess if I was going to think of a team it would be NJW/Tric. NJW was playing good town last game and just took a massive drop in skill level, so that's a tell of some kind.
Post by: Vector on October 08, 2021, 09:34:21 am
I know that I've been one of the options. If you decide I'm going to die today, you need to let me claim first. I'll be on tonight but I may be absent for a while because, you know, I have grad school.
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 10:34:24 am
Does make me wonder who I should be voting though.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 11:21:34 am
... K, if NJW is town/someone else notices the drop. Has he dropped in skill level? Anyway, Unvote.Toonyman, here is your proof that Tric is playing better. The control over the need to constantly vote someone.
Does make me wonder who I should be voting though.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 11:26:54 am
I know that I've been one of the options. If you decide I'm going to die today, you need to let me claim first. I'll be on tonight but I may be absent for a while because, you know, I have grad school.
Honestly, I think mafia!Vector wouldn't say this, instead the inner monolog would be "eh, if Toonyman shoot me, fuck it", leading to mafia!Vector not even bothering.
Sorry Vector, I'll get out of your head now. But yeah, might as well not shoot Vector.
@NJW2000: Why shouldn't Toonyman shoot you? Who should Toonyman shoot?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 11:30:48 am
Ultimately I'll have to do some kind of agenda meta analysis.
Looking forward to it. :D
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 12:05:10 pm
Since you scum read me, do you not believe my Tracker claim? I could target you tonight to prove it, if you have an active ability.
Sorry for the multi-posting, but I just figured out how to explain why this makes Roden Town. (Assuming no mafia tracker)
Roden has committed to telling everyone whom I target on N1.
Without the Tracker ability, Roden would not know who I target.
As mafia faking tracker, Roden would then be forced to kill me N1.
However, as Roden made the claim, and obviously needed me dead to weasel out of it, Roden would be heavily suspected of being mafia.
Since the mafia controls who lives and dies in the night phase, the whole scenario is a mess that a mafia player would avoid like plague.
Ergo, Roden must be town. Mafia wouldn't want to both tie themselves to killing one person in the middle of the day phase AND come under suspicion for the kill.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 12:29:35 pm
7 players, assume between Toonyman and Town Lynch hitting one mafia and one town, then mafia kills one town, leaves 3 town 1 mafia, but the one mafia (Roden) has committed to tracking one townie (me), ergo 50/50. Still, would mafia want to put themselves in a situation where they have a 50% chance of losing. Not winning, as they still have to push that claim into a winning position.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 12:56:15 pm
If I trust Vector then I should suspect Tric.
Ah, but recall the scumchats! Vector stated early on that they would probably confirm Tric as Town. If you don't trust Vector, then you should still suspect Tric!
Actually Vector and Tric could be distancing. I was about to say their interactions weren't scum vs scum but Day 1 distancing is really easy to do, especially since no one usually feels like they have to commit to have a vote.
A valid strategy that worked relatively well in Round 1.
@Vector: Last game, as mafia, you didn't claim D1, held your vote on one person the whole day, and mildly FoS'd your scumbuddy. So far in this game you've held your vote on one person and not claimed. I don't really know your playstyle. If your alignment is different this game, is there going to be a difference between your D1s that indicates that?
I'm town.
I'm also a veteran at this game. No, you shouldn't expect to be able to read me. Why does everyone think I'm not going to be good at this after 10 years @_@
I still think it's Tric and I'm sticking with it. P. sure Metruption is town, think Toony is town, ... Euchrejack is probably town, he's all over the place as town. I guess if I was going to think of a team it would be NJW/Tric. NJW was playing good town last game and just took a massive drop in skill level, so that's a tell of some kind.
Thus, logically, Toonyman should shoot Tric. I'm not 100% sure on Tric, but I gotta shake off the buddying and it isn't my call.
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 01:03:14 pm
... Jack are you playing a game? Which scumchat exactly? Because if it's last games, that does not automatically apply to this one unless you want to make an argument that has no application within this game. Or evidence behind it.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 08, 2021, 01:47:07 pm
@NJW:Based on the very little Met has posted and what Tric has done so far, I think Met. This is mostly due to a slight townread on Tric, and Tric again claiming a role that has a reasonable chance of being mechanically confirmed. I really don't like the idea of you shooting or us lynching either of them yet, because Met hasn't had a chance to say much.
Between Tric and Met who do you think is a more likely hit?
@EuchreJack: how likely do you consider the possibility that Roden is a mafia tracker?
@NJW2000: Why shouldn't Toonyman shoot you? Who should Toonyman shoot?Why shouldn't Toony shoot me? Because (if) he doesn't read me as scum, or most likely to be that. People are talking about my dropping in skill level, although last game D1 I was the only town player committed to lynching Met, with everyone else either interested in nolynch or on the Vector wagon, so I'm not sure I could do much worse. I guess they mean my posts come across as more scummy. I'm certainly a bit more exasperated this game, so perhaps they can interpret it as that. As you say at some point above, defending myself isn't really that useful to town. So let's get to the good bit:
I'd be happier seeing Toonyman shoot you or Roden right now, although I want to see what else Met does before that happens. Let's talk about why.
Immediately, apparently independently, at the start of the day the two of you mention no-lynch, with Roden firmly advocating for it. Sure, he gives some reasons why, and you could just have been asking a question. Still jumped out at me.
Then, you scumread Roden hard as the day progresses. Quite common for mafia to do early day 1.
You arrange to coordinate your night actions, with him tracking you - a smart plan for the scum team, as they know one another's night actions. Roden doesn't even need to be a tracker for this to work, although obviously it would help.
Then finally, a few posts above, you post an analysis of why he "must" be town, sliding in the condition "if mafia don't have a tracker" but offering your conclusion in green bold text.
To Recap: the two of you have been uncannily in sync from the start, you've started out scumreading him and swung hard into a townread, and arranged to coordinate your actions tonight. I think the two of you are working together.
For anyone interested in how I would be voting if the daykill stuff wasn't happening, the above should do. Then again, I'm pretty sure Toony is going to shoot whoever he thinks is scum today, leading to new information in any case, so there we have it. In fact, Unvote, I'm not placing a vote against a consensus to hold off on lynching.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 02:00:42 pm
Jack's reasoning on Roden is spot on, it's a nice parallel to NJW's reasoning on Tric last round.
Post by: Roden on October 08, 2021, 02:21:35 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 02:57:41 pm
@EuchreJack: how likely do you consider the possibility that Roden is a mafia tracker?Next to nil, but I like considering the nearly impossible.
I'd be happier seeing Toonyman shoot you or Roden right now, although I want to see what else Met does before that happens.
@NJW2000: Considering that Toonyman gets to take the shot, and is apparently convinced both Roden and I are town, whom is your third choice?
Right, remove the person with the self-redirect. Great call. Is there a reason you want me dead before anything else?
... Jack are you playing a game? Which scumchat exactly? Because if it's last games, that does not automatically apply to this one unless you want to make an argument that has no application within this game. Or evidence behind it.
@Tric: It's not my shot to make. Shooting you isn't what I would do. You're talking to the wrong person.
Other than me, who's your scum pick?
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 03:20:20 pm
Why ignore it anyway? What makes you want me shot? And for the record, no clue. Kinda why there isn't any other votes from me.
... (https://youtu.be/6LLCrKLZdlY?t=213)
If I trust Vector then I should suspect Tric.
Ah, but recall the scumchats! Vector stated early on that they would probably confirm Tric as Town. If you don't trust Vector, then you should still suspect Tric!Actually Vector and Tric could be distancing. I was about to say their interactions weren't scum vs scum but Day 1 distancing is really easy to do, especially since no one usually feels like they have to commit to have a vote.
A valid strategy that worked relatively well in Round 1.@Vector: Last game, as mafia, you didn't claim D1, held your vote on one person the whole day, and mildly FoS'd your scumbuddy. So far in this game you've held your vote on one person and not claimed. I don't really know your playstyle. If your alignment is different this game, is there going to be a difference between your D1s that indicates that?
I'm town.
I'm also a veteran at this game. No, you shouldn't expect to be able to read me. Why does everyone think I'm not going to be good at this after 10 years @_@
I still think it's Tric and I'm sticking with it. P. sure Metruption is town, think Toony is town, ... Euchrejack is probably town, he's all over the place as town. I guess if I was going to think of a team it would be NJW/Tric. NJW was playing good town last game and just took a massive drop in skill level, so that's a tell of some kind.
Thus, logically, Toonyman should shoot Tric. I'm not 100% sure on Tric, but I gotta shake off the buddying and it isn't my call.
@EuchreJack: how likely do you consider the possibility that Roden is a mafia tracker?Next to nil, but I like considering the nearly impossible.I'd be happier seeing Toonyman shoot you or Roden right now, although I want to see what else Met does before that happens.
@NJW2000: Considering that Toonyman gets to take the shot, and is apparently convinced both Roden and I are town, whom is your third choice?Right, remove the person with the self-redirect. Great call. Is there a reason you want me dead before anything else?
... Jack are you playing a game? Which scumchat exactly? Because if it's last games, that does not automatically apply to this one unless you want to make an argument that has no application within this game. Or evidence behind it.
@Tric: It's not my shot to make. Shooting you isn't what I would do. You're talking to the wrong person.
Other than me, who's your scum pick?
This doesn't make any sense jack. You give a logical answer, suspect me, then say that isn't what you would do.. Suspecting is a natural part of this game, but making posts to push others to suspect me just sounds off..
The logic you use isn't actually logical. There's an inconsistency.
Quote from: Jack
If Toony trusts Vector, then suspecting Tric is only natural. But if Toony doesn't trust Vector, then he shouldn't come to that conclusion from trust. Or rather, if Vector is Mafia and your logic holds true, Vector doesn't trust me at all! Which is the opposite of what you are stating!If I trust Vector then I should suspect Tric.Ah, but recall the scumchats! Vector stated early on that they would probably confirm Tric as Town. If you don't trust Vector, then you should still suspect Tric!
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 03:39:31 pm
Ah yes, logic classes serve me well, for "Vector pushes Tric as Town" is FALSE.
We thus know that "Vector is Scum AND Tric is Town" is also FALSE.
So, if Vector is Scum is TRUE, then Tric is Town must be FALSE.
@Tric: Self-redirects are tricky, and the results they provide vary based on mod.
Is proof of self-redirect proof of alignment? Pretty much the only role you wouldn't want directed onto yourself is cop.
Everything else lets your scumbuddy act freely.
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 04:29:00 pm
IF Vector is Scum AND Tric is Town THEN Vector pushes Tric as Town. <-the argument at issue
Ah yes, logic classes serve me well, for "Vector pushes Tric as Town" is FALSE.
We thus know that "Vector is Scum AND Tric is Town" is also FALSE.
So, if Vector is Scum is TRUE, then Tric is Town must be FALSE.
@Tric: Self-redirects are tricky, and the results they provide vary based on mod.
Is proof of self-redirect proof of alignment? Pretty much the only role you wouldn't want directed onto yourself is cop.
Everything else lets your scumbuddy act freely.
So... Your argument is that Vector is Scum if I'm Scum? Off of something Vector said something in mafia chat and you're using that as the base for a new argument. Without any supporting evidence to the hypothesis other than 'distancing'.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 04:58:58 pm
Question for Tric: How does your role claim prove that you are town?
My argument/theory/etc is that irregardless of alignment, Vector would clear you as town if they felt you were town.
If Vector is town, they would clear you as town if they felt you were town in order to narrow down the suspects.
If Vector is mafia, they would clear you as town, knowing absolutely that you are town, then Vector would clear you as town.
That last part comes from item #7 of last round's scum chat: "Or maybe I'll confirm Tric. He's the world's worst confirmed townie or lying about his role, which he seems to like to do as town. "
But hey, I'm not Vector, so I dunno if that is still accurate.
I think I'll wait until you answer my question before I decide whether to vote you. I made it really clear, too.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 05:04:32 pm
Scum Chat https://www.quicktopic.com/53/H/BL62cT7fGqKsu
It's only polite to reference what I'm talking about.
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 06:00:49 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 06:09:24 pm
In case of mafia kill, it tells that I couldn't do it. Those without any claims when a kill happens would have to make one up, but mine is confirmable. It doesn't completely clear me though if there are two.
Well, it's an honest answer, and since it is both confirm-able and changes the night phase, it could help town regardless of your alignment.
I'd suggest keeping you around till Day 2 at least.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 06:20:58 pm
Met is voting me
Tric is voting me
NJW2000 is inclined to vote me
Vector is likely to vote me once they read my posts about them
If I vote NJW2000, they are likely to vote me.
It's bad, and likely my fault in many ways. I'm tired, should grab some sleep, and might be hammered. So I am going to claim, although it's probably better if I don't overall.
I am a Jailer. I both roleblock and protect one player each night. It should be relatively obvious D2 that I'm telling the truth. I'm probably now the preferred Nightkill, but I have at least some chance of stopping it without outside assistance.
I believe this also means Roden is now confirmed Town, by my earlier and more awake logic.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 06:28:42 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 06:31:46 pm
Unvote
Still leaves the question of who to vote though. (The day1 claim meta is also slightly concerning for when I'm mafia. Likely to roll it at least once. Good here though, hopefully.)
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 06:37:38 pm
I'll be shooting NJW or Tric if the lynch isn't one of them today so.
If the lynch is one of them I might still kill the other or Met during end phase, not sure right now.
PPE:
Also means Toony has a way to survive tonight if Jack is telling the truth.. Sorta inclined to believe him.
I would hope so, your statements gave the impression you wanted the doctor to out themselves:
Turning this on it's head. Do mafia have a nightkill? We have a lot of roles that can mess with things so far. Vector isn't talking, and you bring this out an ask who we want dead. Even though...
Hmm. Do we have a doctor or not is my question. Right now we have a redirect, a track, and vig. Of the remaining, if two are mafia alligned. Granted, one of us could be.. Are you attempting to draw the doctor to target you?
... Not that that makes sense with the idea there is no mafia kill, but still. Perhaps as an ally. (Not enough info here. Day 2 gives a lot more based on what happens at night.)
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 06:44:40 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 06:45:36 pm
Vote NJW2000
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 06:57:08 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 06:59:45 pm
Seriously, you left us with the impression we'd have discussion time, but it occurring at day end changes the narrative entirely. That makes it closer to a Mafia breaker than a town-aligned breaker.
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 07:00:56 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 07:07:31 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 08, 2021, 07:11:57 pm
This is not good..
Post by: NJW2000 on October 08, 2021, 08:09:26 pm
OK, so you think the chance of a mafia tracker is next to nil, and that explains a hard townread. Glad that's cleared up.@EuchreJack: how likely do you consider the possibility that Roden is a mafia tracker?Next to nil, but I like considering the nearly impossible.I'd be happier seeing Toonyman shoot you or Roden right now, although I want to see what else Met does before that happens.
@NJW2000: Considering that Toonyman gets to take the shot, and is apparently convinced both Roden and I are town, whom is your third choice?
I don't really know who my third choice is. I've picked out who I think is the scumteam, who else is there? Can't ask Toony to shoot themselves, don't want them to shoot me, that leaves Tric, Met and Vector. Tric is pretty hard to read, Vector is right that I can't read them because I've literally never seen them play a game this decade where their D1 couldn't be summed up as "here's some reads, I'm better than y'all at mafia but don't have time to post because I'm doing a masters", and Met has about six sentences of actual content. So honestly no idea.
What's the agenda with this question, Jack? You honestly think Toony is going to let us vote on who he shoots?
For some clarity, my daykill only pops at the same time the lynch happens. We can't flip someone and then decide on someone else the same day. It'll be simultaneous. I guess it's for game balance.Could have mentioned that. Does it still proc if we lynch you?
Post by: Roden on October 08, 2021, 08:21:32 pm
For some clarity, my daykill only pops at the same time the lynch happens. We can't flip someone and then decide on someone else the same day. It'll be simultaneous. I guess it's for game balance.That's not a day kill lol. This changes everything, it's way less safe than an actual day kill if it's conditional on there being an elimination.
Can you tell us the name of your role? And does your day kill count as an actual Vig shot or is it technically a second lynch?
Post by: Metruption on October 08, 2021, 08:55:46 pm
i would expect town!njw to respond to tric pointing out the logical leaps made by now, especially considering njw has posted since then and responded to something else entirely. my guess is that the badlogic was a genuine scumslip and njw just ignoring it, and hoping people forget about it
the right thing to do when you scumslip is explain how it isn't a scumslip and then win the game off of it with charisma by getting all of your detractors yeeted
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 09:02:49 pm
I have a roleblock/protect role, so I can lock down one person
Roden can declare that they will track someone, limiting the options of a second person
Tric can redirect one action onto themselves once, forcing the hand of a third person
I think we can create a breaking strategy from that, especially since the lynch and Toony's kill brings us to five people. It works if all three of us declare whom we are going to be targeting, I think. If any of us are lying, it should be fairly obvious Day Two.
It should keep mafia from getting off their kill silently.
Since Toonyman's shot apparently goes off at the same time as the lynch, Toonyman will have to declare his target prior to the lynch.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 09:08:31 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 09:09:49 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 09:17:19 pm
If Toonyman is mafia, he can now hammer for two shots at end of day. The Toonyman/Vector scum team needed to find out if there was a roleblocker or doctor, and who had it, before they could hammer for the win. They never suspected each other.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 09:37:48 pm
1. I'm very against no-kill D1....because no-kill D1 denies the Toonyman/Vector scumteam of their 3 shots and win. Those would be the Lynch, the End-day Shot, and the Night Kill.
Spoiler: ToonyMan's first reads, note Vector's place (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Next ToonyMan Reads, note the slow build on Vector (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Vector's only reads, pushes Toonyman as town (click to show/hide)
PS: I'm good with the "Toony shoots and NL if they're town" plan. I'm also OK with NJW, even. That would give us a lot of information about EJ and Tric, and I genuinely think NJW could be scum.
I know that I've been one of the options. If you decide I'm going to die today, you need to let me claim first. I'll be on tonight but I may be absent for a while because, you know, I have grad school.
The request. What I'm now seeing as coordination, and an excuse for Toonyman to stall a bit.
In terms of my final decision making for today...
I'll be shooting NJW or Tric if the lynch isn't one of them today so.
If the lynch is one of them I might still kill the other or Met during end phase, not sure right now.
PPE:Also means Toony has a way to survive tonight if Jack is telling the truth.. Sorta inclined to believe him.
I would hope so, your statements gave the impression you wanted the doctor to out themselves:Turning this on it's head. Do mafia have a nightkill? We have a lot of roles that can mess with things so far. Vector isn't talking, and you bring this out an ask who we want dead. Even though...
Hmm. Do we have a doctor or not is my question. Right now we have a redirect, a track, and vig. Of the remaining, if two are mafia alligned. Granted, one of us could be.. Are you attempting to draw the doctor to target you?
... Not that that makes sense with the idea there is no mafia kill, but still. Perhaps as an ally. (Not enough info here. Day 2 gives a lot more based on what happens at night.)
Trying to act like it's Tric's fault that I slipped and revealed the one role they desperately needed to show in order pull off the win. I knew my role was too powerful for this setup...
Please oh please explain how I'm wrong. Start talking about it.
Post by: Vector on October 08, 2021, 09:45:19 pm
Vector is likely to vote me once they read my posts about them
????????????????
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 09:46:11 pm
Post by: Vector on October 08, 2021, 09:48:32 pm
Please get some sleep and then come back.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 08, 2021, 09:49:46 pm
Post by: Vector on October 08, 2021, 09:49:54 pm
The Toonyman/Vector scum team needed to find out if there was a roleblocker or doctor, and who had it, before they could hammer for the win.
Which is why I said that I didn't want a fullclaim, which I already ate shit for. Please keep up.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 10:23:47 pm
Could have mentioned that. Does it still proc if we lynch you?Yes. If people try to push for me I will absolutely bring down my top suspect with me.
There doesn't have to be an elimination, they die at the end of the day regardless. I apologize for not clarifying this sooner but I wanted to get some good reactions and voices on who people would like to see dead during the day, this is why I'm stating it now.For some clarity, my daykill only pops at the same time the lynch happens. We can't flip someone and then decide on someone else the same day. It'll be simultaneous. I guess it's for game balance.That's not a day kill lol. This changes everything, it's way less safe than an actual day kill if it's conditional on there being an elimination.
Can you tell us the name of your role? And does your day kill count as an actual Vig shot or is it technically a second lynch?
The full name is One-Shot Day Poisoner. My flavor's hidden profession is toxicologist.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 10:24:52 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 10:44:13 pm
Do mafia have a nightkill?Guess we'll find out, huh?
My top suspects are you, NJW, and Met. There's either two mafia or mafia+ally so you can't all three be mafia. I think the rest of the players are likely town. This leaves Met (which I will need to read their posts now that they're here) and you two. This is why I would like to hear your opinion of the other two.@NJW:... Met hadn't actually had time to post. So why do you assume him to be Mafia? I mean, you assume me too, but I haven't had any interactions with him. No one has. Well, other than jack, but that's quite recent. He's still in the push stage of voting.
Between Tric and Met who do you think is a more likely hit?
I think Tric/NJW is my top pick, but I could see Met/Tric, Met/NJW, or possibly Met/Vector.
I am not targeting Roden or Jack as not only have they openly stated their abilities willingly, but I think they're town.
You have also shared your ability - which I am grateful for - however it was under Vector's pressure which makes it less convincing to me than Round 1, does this make sense?
So dead either way. Yeah, no ToonyMan, I don't buy it. This is the first I've heard of it occurring and day end. And that's important information. I don't mind dying if I take you out.The fact you don't mind dying here is actually pretty towny. Mafia should be 90% sure I'm not lying about my ability which means there's no way they'd risk getting taken down with me unless they have major guts. I like it.
Seriously, you left us with the impression we'd have discussion time, but it occurring at day end changes the narrative entirely. That makes it closer to a Mafia breaker than a town-aligned breaker.
@Met:
NJWHow do you feel about Vector?
i would expect town!njw to respond to tric pointing out the logical leaps made by now, especially considering njw has posted since then and responded to something else entirely. my guess is that the badlogic was a genuine scumslip and njw just ignoring it, and hoping people forget about it
the right thing to do when you scumslip is explain how it isn't a scumslip and then win the game off of it with charisma by getting all of your detractors yeeted
Post by: Vector on October 08, 2021, 10:49:07 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 10:53:35 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 11:06:54 pm
Jack - town
Roden - town
Tric - mixed, although slightly town unless they're gutsy, don't really feel like poisoning anymore
Vector - mixed, hasn't shared but could see town!Vector acting like they have today
Met - hasn't shared, has barely posted
NJW - hasn't shared, really wants Roden and Jack...my top two townreads, I would be less suspicious of this if their day game was like Round 1's but I haven't seen that
Post by: ToonyMan on October 08, 2021, 11:11:02 pm
Post by: Roden on October 09, 2021, 12:04:20 am
This is such a bold claim...I don't think you're lying, it's way too specific and easily disprovable to be a lie. I want to believe it's a town ability too because I can see your intentions with your claim come from a townie mindset.Could have mentioned that. Does it still proc if we lynch you?Yes. If people try to push for me I will absolutely bring down my top suspect with me.There doesn't have to be an elimination, they die at the end of the day regardless. I apologize for not clarifying this sooner but I wanted to get some good reactions and voices on who people would like to see dead during the day, this is why I'm stating it now.For some clarity, my daykill only pops at the same time the lynch happens. We can't flip someone and then decide on someone else the same day. It'll be simultaneous. I guess it's for game balance.That's not a day kill lol. This changes everything, it's way less safe than an actual day kill if it's conditional on there being an elimination.
Can you tell us the name of your role? And does your day kill count as an actual Vig shot or is it technically a second lynch?
The full name is One-Shot Day Poisoner. My flavor's hidden profession is toxicologist.
My only issue is that if it is true, it sort of implies scum don't have bullets, otherwise the game could end with a scum win Day 1. Unless your target doesn't die of poison until the next day, which could still let scum have bullets in a 1 Mafia + 1 Ally scenario.
Maybe we should vote today then? If we can get the votes together in time, I'd go for NJW since I don't feel like his reads have progressed much and he's been way too focused on my no lynch suggestion, I don't see him scum hunting like I did last game. And him wanting either me or Jack day killed feels really off, Jack is obvtown this game and is contributing way more than he did last time around.
This post in particular has been pinging me. When asked who else could be a decent target, he doesn't give a concrete answer and says he doesn't have a read on the others, but then immediately suggests a Toony lynch. This suggests that if two scum exist, he believes it's within Toony/Jack/me. The problem is that I know I'm town, Jack is obvtown, and Toony while not obvtown obviously cannot be a solo scum in this scenario without auto losing.OK, so you think the chance of a mafia tracker is next to nil, and that explains a hard townread. Glad that's cleared up.@EuchreJack: how likely do you consider the possibility that Roden is a mafia tracker?Next to nil, but I like considering the nearly impossible.I'd be happier seeing Toonyman shoot you or Roden right now, although I want to see what else Met does before that happens.
@NJW2000: Considering that Toonyman gets to take the shot, and is apparently convinced both Roden and I are town, whom is your third choice?
I don't really know who my third choice is. I've picked out who I think is the scumteam, who else is there? Can't ask Toony to shoot themselves, don't want them to shoot me, that leaves Tric, Met and Vector. Tric is pretty hard to read, Vector is right that I can't read them because I've literally never seen them play a game this decade where their D1 couldn't be summed up as "here's some reads, I'm better than y'all at mafia but don't have time to post because I'm doing a masters", and Met has about six sentences of actual content. So honestly no idea.
What's the agenda with this question, Jack? You honestly think Toony is going to let us vote on who he shoots?For some clarity, my daykill only pops at the same time the lynch happens. We can't flip someone and then decide on someone else the same day. It'll be simultaneous. I guess it's for game balance.Could have mentioned that. Does it still proc if we lynch you?
It's possible NJW is scum and Toony is the Ally, and by pushing me and Jack we either attack each other or help him bus his ally, who's only job is to day kill and then die. No matter the outcome, he positions himself in a good spot Day 2. As if me and Jack get lynched and poisoned, that's two town down and Toony takes the heat Day 2. And if Toony gets lynched and poisons town, NJW gets the bus credit and can push me and Jack with little resistance. Even if Toony actually is town, scum!NJW is still set up to be in a really good spot.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 01:36:20 am
I have no intentions of voting or poisoning you or Jack today so I can't really see that happening.
Lynching someone only is better for me obviously since I can hold onto my day poison, one of the downsides of my ability is I can't get info on someone's flip before poisoning my target the same day. So I would be blind picking the second target unfortunately without the actual flip of the first known yet. So it's more like a double lynch for that day. And of course with less players I'm more likely to get a mafia hit or break lylo if it comes to that.
Post by: Metruption on October 09, 2021, 04:15:50 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 09, 2021, 06:18:30 am
NJWI don't even know which posts you're referring to. This has been an 150 page D1.
i would expect town!njw to respond to tric pointing out the logical leaps made by now, especially considering njw has posted since then and responded to something else entirely. my guess is that the badlogic was a genuine scumslip and njw just ignoring it, and hoping people forget about it
the right thing to do when you scumslip is explain how it isn't a scumslip and then win the game off of it with charisma by getting all of your detractors yeeted
Do you mean tric pushing against Jack? Why would I respond to that? I don't defend people.
Also, what scumslip? What bad logic? I'm not trying to suggest that there hasn't been a scumslip or bad logic, I just don't know which posts you're referring to or even who made them. You don't make that clear. If there has been an actual scumslip, please point it out.
This is pretty typical, really. There have been 150 posts on a D1 with zero confirmed mechanical information, and people scumread me for not responding to each and every one of them. I'll go back through the giant morass of posts yet again and try to work out who I'd be ok with lynching, but I really can't wait for this day to end.
Post by: Metruption on October 09, 2021, 07:37:42 am
But the salt in your post still makes me sr you.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 09:25:24 am
I think mechanically there is going to be a lot of death in this setup. Maybe even as little as one scum. My ability should allow me to be confirmable as town by a tracker during n2.What?
Do you have reads on everyone besides"NJW is mad"? I suspect you as mafia if it's exactly with Vector. Vector town read you with very little to go on while everyone else is pretty null on you which is odd. Your response to my question could very well direct us to hitting scum on D1. Since if you and Vector are legit I really do think it's Tric and NJW.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 11:02:21 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 09, 2021, 11:10:28 am
Still don't trust Toony though.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 11:24:44 am
I don't like jack's play. It's similar to last game but instead of never taking a real stance this game jack is taking many weak stances. NJW seems like a player I will have difficulty reading. Ultimately I'll have to do some kind of agenda meta analysis. The way Tric tunnels on roden is notableMet susses Jack and Tric while thinking NJW is hard to read. Makes no mention of myself, Roden, or Vector.
who claimed psychologist and then said they were actually a redirector? that's policy yeetable tbh
also biologist is not really related to psychology. like maybe one could argue that psychology is a form of biology but if someone wants to get that pedantic then i will remind them that literally everything is just applied set theory
2. Met follows up with this:
so you're just ignoring my soulread on you?A "soulread" vote on Jack for not addressing them properly, which is true so I don't fault them for this voting Jack based on their feelings.
jack
3. Vector comes in now to say:
I still think it's Tric and I'm sticking with it. P. sure Metruption is town, think Toony is town, ... Euchrejack is probably town, he's all over the place as town. I guess if I was going to think of a team it would be NJW/Tric. NJW was playing good town last game and just took a massive drop in skill level, so that's a tell of some kind.Vector susses Tric and NJW. Thinks Met is town just based on their couple posts prior that don't really have much. Also believes in myself and Jack. Makes no mention of Roden either funny enough. To be fair mafia!Jack in the last round also forgot to mention Roden.
4. Next Vector post:
PS: I'm good with the "Toony shoots and NL if they're town" plan. I'm also OK with NJW, even. That would give us a lot of information about EJ and Tric, and I genuinely think NJW could be scum.Vector is cool with me killing NJW of course.
I know that I've been one of the options. If you decide I'm going to die today, you need to let me claim first. I'll be on tonight but I may be absent for a while because, you know, I have grad school.
5. The next day Met comes in again with this:
NJWMet jumps to NJW now towards day end, doesn't talk about anything else.
i would expect town!njw to respond to tric pointing out the logical leaps made by now, especially considering njw has posted since then and responded to something else entirely. my guess is that the badlogic was a genuine scumslip and njw just ignoring it, and hoping people forget about it
the right thing to do when you scumslip is explain how it isn't a scumslip and then win the game off of it with charisma by getting all of your detractors yeeted
6. Vector comes in again just to be confused about Jack (a natural response):
They don't really add much here.The Toonyman/Vector scum team needed to find out if there was a roleblocker or doctor, and who had it, before they could hammer for the win.
Which is why I said that I didn't want a fullclaim, which I already ate shit for. Please keep up.
7. Met again:
I think mechanically there is going to be a lot of death in this setup. Maybe even as little as one scum. My ability should allow me to be confirmable as town by a tracker during n2.Fair enough.
Oh fuck, I actually did misread.NJW counters their argument against Met who goes "you're right, but I'll be leaving my vote on you anyway because soulread".
But the salt in your post still makes me sr you.
Is Met just voting NJW here as an easy target? That's my impression.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 09, 2021, 11:32:08 am
I'm pretty ok with eliminating Met - basing a vote on skimreading is, if not scummy, at least anti-town enough that getting rid of them is worthwhile. Is my stance influenced by the fact that they made me reread forty posts line-by-line due to their own screwup, then had the audacity to say "whoops salty -> scum anyhow"? Yes, probably it is.
Not going to vote just yet because I'm not 100% sure that they're on two votes not three already and don't really want to hammer. Still, that's who I'll be voting to eliminate, unless a Roden or Euchre wagon springs up in the last three hours.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 12:12:33 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 09, 2021, 12:16:13 pm
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (1): Vector
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (1): Metruption
Vector (0):
Metruption (2): ToonyMan, TricMagic
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (3): Roden, EuchreJack, NJW2000
4 to hammer.
Day 1 ends at 2 PM Central time, or a little less than two hours from now - or on hammer.
(Now's also your chance to point out any issues with the vote count, if you notice anything I missed, although I did a pretty thorough reading of the thread to check for votes.)
Post by: EuchreJack on October 09, 2021, 12:25:23 pm
Toonyman is town. Mafia would keep their mouth shut
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 01:42:52 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 09, 2021, 01:50:44 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 09, 2021, 01:51:43 pm
I think mechanically there is going to be a lot of death in this setup. Maybe even as little as one scum. My ability should allow me to be confirmable as town by a tracker during n2.
Now that is a scumslip. Full claim now
Post by: TricMagic on October 09, 2021, 01:54:27 pm
Thought you were going to be gone. You're not. So I'm going back to my idea of a Toony/Jack team. Met's not going to answer, it seems.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 01:56:22 pm
There isn't really enough time for Met to say anything and have people be able to react to it. If I wanted to be a huge troll I could unvote to cause a tie right now.
PPE:
Votes EuchreackTric you tied the votes! I am not voting this.
Thought you were going to be gone. You're not. So I'm going back to my idea of a Toony/Jack team. Met's not going to answer, it seems.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 01:56:40 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 09, 2021, 01:59:32 pm
Post by: Roden on October 09, 2021, 02:00:48 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 09, 2021, 02:01:06 pm
Proof I'm mostly unavailable
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 09, 2021, 02:01:41 pm
Lemme write up the Day end post. Nobody post.
MetMet
Proof I'm mostly unavailable
One minute too late, sorry.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 09, 2021, 02:19:37 pm
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (1): Vector
EuchreJack (1): TricMagic
NJW2000 (1): Metruption
Vector (0):
Metruption (1): ToonyMan
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (3): Roden, EuchreJack, NJW2000
4 to hammer.
ToonyMan lunged for Metruption, who skipped out of the way, intent on throwing NJW2000 out the window. Meanwhile TricMagic was busy being restrained by Vector, keeping him from reaching EuchreJack. But nowhere was there enough coordination to actually catch someone. The people of the hotel were divided.
A clock chimed. The grand clock chimed, and the lights flickered and went out.
There wasn't enough time to do anything more.
As there was a tie, nobody was executed.
It is now Night 1. Night 1 will end at approximately 2 PM (Central time), Sunday - or later if my D&D game takes exceptionally long, or earlier if all needed Night actions are submitted quickly. Send in your actions!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 10, 2021, 03:48:02 pm
The clock chimed morning, and the day was claimed by weary discussions once more.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
Metruption (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (7): ToonyMan, Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, Metruption
4 to hammer.
It is now Day 2. Day 2 will end once it is noon, Tuesday, Central time (approximately 48 hours from now) - or when a hammer happens.
Post by: Vector on October 10, 2021, 03:50:40 pm
I don't like Tric tying the votes but I think there's a reasonable possibility that it wasn't deliberate. With that said, I'll be looking at him closely today.
Roden was asleep. So was I.
Ok, it looks like I won't be able to get Roden or Euchre eliminated, sad but not unexpected.
[...]
Not going to vote just yet because I'm not 100% sure that they're on two votes not three already and don't really want to hammer. Still, that's who I'll be voting to eliminate, unless a Roden or Euchre wagon springs up in the last three hours.
NJW2000, would you mind speaking to what you did last night?
Of Metruption, Roden, and EJ, who do you presently think is most likely to be scum based on EoD?
Toony, thoughts?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 03:58:18 pm
It is very unlikely Tric is mafia unless they're insane because 5 minutes before EoD he gave me a gun and said "shoot me or NJW" as those were the only two players I could have voted to lynch at that point. I didn't vote either because I couldn't see mafia!Tric letting me kill them like that and as for NJW...I didn't want to jump my vote onto them without hearing from Met who was radio silent and had an awful vote on NJW.
The fact there was no kill last night makes me think either:
1. The mafia targeted me last night.
or
2. Jack stopped the kill by protecting the victim or blocking the killer.
I believe the mafia possibilities come down to NJW/Met, NJW/Vector, or Met/Vector.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 03:58:57 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 10, 2021, 03:59:45 pm
Claim: I Watched ToonyMan. He was visited by TricMagic and EuchreJack.
Possibly there would have been an advantage from holding some of that back, maybe claiming watcher instead, but eh, I think I'd have had to lie about my role or something and I don't like that kind of gambit.
Hey, with Euchre's protect claim that probably means something, right? Kinda busy downloading research papers from dodgy arabic websites right now, but will try to follow events.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 04:03:49 pm
Claim: I Watched ToonyMan. He was visited by TricMagic and EuchreJack.Oh man.
I can confirm somebody targeted me last night since I was targeted by a quite bad negative effect that will persist until the game is over.
The thing is, what I was hit by is not accounted for in Tric or Jack's role claim. Which means one of them is lying about their role.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 04:12:33 pm
NJW2000, would you mind speaking to what you did last night?
Of Metruption, Roden, and EJ, who do you presently think is most likely to be scum based on EoD?
Toony, thoughts?
Why is Met pretty town to you?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 10, 2021, 04:20:33 pm
Of Metruption, Roden, and EJ, who do you presently think is most likely to be scum based on EoD?Sorry, should have answered this earlier, impolite of me.
Only Euchre was really present at end of day, right? Jack lunging to make the kill happen was exactly what he did as scum last game, but he could have genuinely suspected Met. As I've said, Met was basically anti-town, not sure I'd assign scum yet though. And yeah, I assume Roden wasn't lying about being asleep, but I still think Roden/Jack is a pretty plausible team. Hard to decide between Jack or Roden, but Roden does gutread a bit worse to me.
Anyhow, we now have claims and mechanical information, so... any particular reason for this specific question?
Weird that you didn't consider the possibility that I'm lying, especially as in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8319439#msg8319439) from two minutes ago you say you've narrowed it down to three possible scumteams, two of them containing me and the other containing neither Tric nor Jack. So... as far as I understood town!Toony's state of mind five minutes ago, that interpretation should have been your go-to.Claim: I Watched ToonyMan. He was visited by TricMagic and EuchreJack.Oh man.
I can confirm somebody targeted me last night since I was targeted by a quite bad negative effect that will persist until the game is over.
The thing is, what I was hit by is not accounted for in Tric or Jack's role claim. Which means one of them is lying about their role.
There is of course the fourth possibility, which is that YOU are lying. Why the sudden shift in beliefs, Toony?
Post by: TricMagic on October 10, 2021, 04:23:42 pm
So fun fact. I kinda lied about my power, but thought Redirect could be used that way. Fal kindly informed me that it very much wasn't possible, so I targeted Toony and redirected him to Jack.
Also, I got hit by the Lover effect last night. Which means that Jack's ability isn't what he claims, since it's Toonyman I'm lover's with. Which if he was jailed, shouldn't have happened. I guess I'd be hit by it, but not Toony.
As for the end of day, I thought I had a few more hours. This is the first time in forever a day has ended while the sun was still up for me. So I was still pressuring.
Nin.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 04:31:57 pm
There is of course the fourth possibility, which is that YOU are lying. Why the sudden shift in beliefs, Toony?Sorry, but I don't think you're lying NJW.
Tric and Jack (or another party who could have targeted me) could easily disprove your claim. It would be insane to guess.
Also, I got hit by the Lover effect last night. Which means that Jack's ability isn't what he claims, since it's Toonyman I'm lover's with. Which if he was jailed, shouldn't have happened. I guess I'd be hit by it, but not Toony.Being jailkeep'd wouldn't have stopped that Tric.
Dude you're lying your ass off. Why would town!Tric admit he was lovers with me? A town player should never admit they are lovers like you just have.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 04:37:10 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 10, 2021, 04:40:35 pm
As well I'd think you could make more use of... I don't understand why?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 04:45:25 pm
? Doesn't Jailing protect from that? I'd assumed it would block every action made.Jailkeeping protects from kills and blocks players from doing anything as far as I can tell. I don't believe it stops other things from happening to someone.
As well I'd think you could make more use of... I don't understand why?
Post by: TricMagic on October 10, 2021, 04:48:21 pm
... Right, apparently no guarantee of you being town. Which is annoying, I'd have liked to put the Toony/Jack team out of my head, but seems that's still possible. Least you won't survive once I flip town, and we'd know jack is scum.
If Jailing exists, but has no kill to protect against, then Lovers and Poison become a fairly potent combo for a scum team. I don't think we'll find any inconsistency with reports then. Jack applied Lovers to you...
Wait, that doesn't make any sense either. Ugh.. But if there isn't a kill, Jack is a roleblocker. So who would his partner..
Jack, why did you vote Met after the time ran out? Typing his name twice too.
...Not Jack/Met from that. Then NJW?
Nin.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 04:48:50 pm
1. I'm a threat to mafia and they could possibly try to kill me
2. I have no night action anyway
If Tric is legit the most likely scenario here is that mafia really are Jack/Roden and they're framing me for the kill and made Tric lovers with me to nab a double kill the next day. Which just explodes my mind.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 04:49:47 pm
It made sense: I townread Toonyman, so I protected him. I wanted to see what other players did with their roles, such as NJW (whom I'm now slightly townreading until I can determine if I can totally townread), and thus Toonyman was the smart pick since his ability would be unaffected by the roleblocking.
There are presumably more town minor power roles than mafia power roles, because everyone has something and there are more town than mafia.
What I'm surprised about is that I am alive and unaffected (as far as I know) by anything.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 04:54:07 pm
MetMet
Proof I'm mostly unavailable
Let me explain this post.
I wanted to vote Met to get the lynch, since I was thinking about the game and felt someone scumslipped. So I looked over the posts, and it was Met that made the post. Tric's jumping onto me to tie and keep Met alive was highly suspicious, so I wanted to vote. But I was on my cell phone, and I couldn't easily color the vote red. That proves I was "mostly unavailable", since I was using a phone while interacting with other, and that delay cost the vote.
Personally, I think Tric is either mafia with Met or Tric is Mafia-ally that thinks Met is mafia. Only one way to be sure...
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 04:55:29 pm
... Right, apparently no guarantee of you being town. Which is annoying, I'd have liked to put the Toony/Jack team out of my head, but seems that's still possible. Least you won't survive once I flip town, and we'd know jack is scum.I admire your commitment at least.
How about this, if you're really town then Jack is like 99% mafia. I will poison you today just in case and we vote off Jack today. At least one of you is mafia so town should still be able to win. Sound good?
What I'm surprised about is that I am alive and unaffected (as far as I know) by anything.I 100% expected myself, you, or Roden to die last night.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 04:56:14 pm
I think mechanically there is going to be a lot of death in this setup. Maybe even as little as one scum. My ability should allow me to be confirmable as town by a tracker during n2.
Now that is a scumslip. Full claim now
What I thought was a scumslip, that caused Tric to immediately vote me because apparently taking a couple minutes away from a family engagement because I was thinking about the game is a good reason to lynch someone. It was a ploy to not vote Met, the question is why.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 05:01:04 pm
What I'm surprised about is that I am alive and unaffected (as far as I know) by anything.I 100% expected myself, you, or Roden to die last night.
I was quite surprised not to be dead. I thought it was blatantly obvious that I was going to protect you, as I wanted Roden to use his tracker, wanted you alive, and your ability wasn't going to be hindered by my ability.
Also, its better to lynch TricMagic on Day 2. I see no reason that I would be changing this vote.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 05:05:09 pm
Claim: I Watched ToonyMan. He was visited by TricMagic and EuchreJack.[/i]
If you are telling the truth, you need to decide between me and TricMagic. We're not both telling the truth.
Tricmagic is clearing lying about his role. Other failings I await your shrewd analysis.
My power, motivation, and mechanics are all consistent with my D1. Are seriously scumreading me just because I post too much?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 05:12:17 pm
I'll use my poison on Tric today and then we have to hit mafia today with the lynch. There's at least one mafia inside Tric/Jack so when all three of us go down today we'll be down to 4 players but there will be only one mafia left.
My power, motivation, and mechanics are all consistent with my D1. Are seriously scumreading me just because I post too much?This reeks of mafia smugness. Why so eager to kill Met yesterday?
I was frozen in place after Tric tied the votes, unable to vote between Tric (who gave me the gun in the first place) and NJW to kill.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 05:27:24 pm
Yeah, no. We're not lynching Tric with the vote today. Tric FOR SOME REASON admitted we were made lovers with each other last night, which means we die together now. As you can plainly see this would be an absolute joke if me and Tric were both mafia. I'll take down Tric myself with my poison. One of you two is mafia and I have no reason to remove either of you from suspicion now.Does it even matter now? We all three die, then town can pick up the pieces. I had a good role too.
I'll use my poison on Tric today and then we have to hit mafia today with the lynch. There's at least one mafia inside Tric/Jack so when all three of us go down today we'll be down to 4 players but there will be only one mafia left.My power, motivation, and mechanics are all consistent with my D1. Are seriously scumreading me just because I post too much?This reeks of mafia smugness. Why so eager to kill Met yesterday?
I was frozen in place after Tric tied the votes, unable to vote between Tric (who gave me the gun in the first place) and NJW to kill.
Scumslip. Voted to lynch scum. I thought that was our job?I think mechanically there is going to be a lot of death in this setup. Maybe even as little as one scum. My ability should allow me to be confirmable as town by a tracker during n2.
Now that is a scumslip. Full claim now
What I thought was a scumslip, that caused Tric to immediately vote me because apparently taking a couple minutes away from a family engagement because I was thinking about the game is a good reason to lynch someone. It was a ploy to not vote Met, the question is why.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 05:29:06 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 05:34:36 pm
My power, motivation, and mechanics are all consistent with my D1. Are seriously scumreading me just because I post too much?This reeks of mafia smugness.
I just want to clarify, yes it reeks of smugness. TOWN smugness. I know I'm right, I know Tric is lying, I know I'm consistent.
@NJW: I want an answer to the question, irregardless. Why am I scum and Tric town?
Post by: TricMagic on October 10, 2021, 06:08:09 pm
... Right, apparently no guarantee of you being town. Which is annoying, I'd have liked to put the Toony/Jack team out of my head, but seems that's still possible. Least you won't survive once I flip town, and we'd know jack is scum.I admire your commitment at least.
How about this, if you're really town then Jack is like 99% mafia. I will poison you today just in case and we vote off Jack today. At least one of you is mafia so town should still be able to win. Sound good?What I'm surprised about is that I am alive and unaffected (as far as I know) by anything.I 100% expected myself, you, or Roden to die last night.
I'm fine with this. Well, not fine since it ends with us dead, but it does reveal which of us is mafia. Slightly worried NJW is lying, but he claimed promptly.
If NJW is mafia, that means his partner... Right, I just need sleep before I actually go into this.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 06:08:23 pm
@TricMagic: What EXACTLY was your power? Please describe as clearly as you can (without quoting, which unfortunately in this case is illegal play)!
@Toonyman: Your plan is flawed. There is a slight possibility that Tric had an ability to pick two players and link them as lovers, which a TOWN player could use to kill mafia.
The reason you two are lovers is possibly due to order resolution: Tric's lover ability could be written so that it was an action by you onto a third player. With the roleblocker, the action didn't link you to a third party, so it instead linked Tric and your. Alternatively, other redirector. As you are showing clearly, someone that can bind their life to another player could be a town ability, since a 1 for 1 trade benefits town. So we could both be town, and Tric was just trying to find a way not to use his ability in his discussions Day 1.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 10, 2021, 06:10:32 pm
Eh? I explained why I read you as scum D1. Vector asked me to post reads on three players based on the end of yesterday, if this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8319446#msg8319446)post is what you're worried about. Odd thing to ask D2, but whatever. Anyway, that's not where I am today. Today there's mechanical information, which is just so much easier to work with.My power, motivation, and mechanics are all consistent with my D1. Are seriously scumreading me just because I post too much?This reeks of mafia smugness.
I just want to clarify, yes it reeks of smugness. TOWN smugness. I know I'm right, I know Tric is lying, I know I'm consistent.
@NJW: I want an answer to the question, irregardless. Why am I scum and Tric town?
Either Toony is playing a crazy bizarre game or one of you and Tric is mafia. Right now I'm not completely sure as to which... need to reread, try and work out what happens if Toony is scum, and so on. But don't worry too much about that, it's quite likely we'll kill both you and Tric today, and I won't have to bother trying to guess who is scum.
This is all very confusing, so I'm going to get back to my other work, sleep on it, and maybe draw myself a diagram tomorrow.
Post by: TricMagic on October 10, 2021, 06:19:06 pm
This is all very confusing, so I'm going to get back to my other work, sleep on it, and maybe draw myself a diagram tomorrow.This. Just this.
I thought Redirector could redirect actions onto myself. It can't. I pick a first target and a second, the first target targets the second. As Toony apparently doesn't have an ability/you telling the truth, nothing happened. Though didn't get an action failed message. No clue if that's normal if the one I targeted.. Well, given how Jailkeep works, guess I wouldn't.
Naturally no one can confirm this given Toony didn't do anything last night. So here we are. The only option we are both telling the truth is if NJW is mafia. And we kinda have to get the right person.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 06:27:44 pm
@TricMagic: Isn't it possible that someone other than Toonyman, you, and me cast Lovers to bind two players? You both seem surprised by the affliction, and I had to look it up. Your redirector would fizzle both if Toonyman had no night ability or if I roleblocked Toonyman. Your confusion Day 1 makes sense if you were a plain 1-shot redirector who wanted to redirect onto yourself and was told "NO" during the night phase. If we're all town, then we lose!
Post by: TricMagic on October 10, 2021, 06:35:46 pm
... Not the best situation if there is a ninja around.(checks, that is the name of the role.)
Post by: TricMagic on October 10, 2021, 06:40:38 pm
If toony is mafia and this is some crazy play, I may need a drink. Or chocolate ice-cream, either or.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 06:44:05 pm
NJW2000 is town.Now hold up. NJW is most likely telling the truth that he watched me last night since he claimed before either you or Tric did. That isn't the same thing as 100% town.
Also I apologize but I read the Lovers status wrong. We don't both die simultaneously, the one who is still alive will die at the end of the following day.
Tric I strongly recommend in future games not to admit being lovers in case mafia wasn't the one that did that to us, although in this case it's extremely unlikely given that NJW's claim is 99% true which means either Tric or Jack is STILL lying about their night action making people lovers. Aka one of them is mafia and made me and Tric lovers.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 06:47:46 pm
This claim of Tric is supported by NJW2000's claim of seeing Tric go to Toonyman. So both Tric and myself could have been trying to save Toonyman!
The plan of Toonyman poisoning Tric and the town lynching me is crazy, because we might all three be town, and mafia wins with 4 players 2 mafia.
And now that both Toonyman and Tric are lovers, mafia gets a Twofer, and I can tank the kill N2 (with me alive, I give the twofer on Toonyman and Tric only a 50/50 chance, since I'm obligated to keep them both alive by not picking one publicly then rolling an RNG).
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 06:51:54 pm
Then NJW reports 66% truthfully.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 06:54:34 pm
Tric I strongly recommend in future games not to admit being lovers in case mafia wasn't the one that did that to us, although in this case it's extremelyEdit after posting.unlikelylikely given that NJW's claim is 99% true which means either Tric or Jack is STILL lying about their night action making people lovers. Aka one of them is mafia and made me and Tric lovers.
The plan of Toonyman poisoning Tric and the town lynching me is crazy, because we might all three be townNope. Only two people targeted me last night according to NJW. Either you or Tric gave me lovers status with Tric which means one of you is still lying. The only other possibility is that NJW truly did watch me, but is also withholding a third player that targeted me, which would make NJW mafia partners with this third player. That's not something I believe right now, but we can talk about it moving forward.
PPE:
What if mafia got a watcher, and NJW is scumbuddies with the watcher? The scumbuddy says "I saw NJW, Tric, and EJ visit Toonyman".Yes that is a possible argument. Who would be NJW's partner? Roden, Met, or Vector?
Then NJW reports 66% truthfully.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 06:59:29 pm
What if mafia got a watcher, and NJW is scumbuddies with the watcher? The scumbuddy says "I saw NJW, Tric, and EJ visit Toonyman".Yes that is a possible argument. Who would be NJW's partner? Roden, Met, or Vector?
Then NJW reports 66% truthfully.
With that argument, Roden. It would be close to Roden's claim of tracker, and explain why NJW posted their watcher claim BEFORE Roden, who claimed tracker and was their Prime scum suspect all day 1.
Although, it might make more sense for the "mafia kill - Infect two with lovers" to also have a watcher ability tagged onto it.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:05:09 pm
Nobody else dies if I die, and Toonyman can keep his poison for another day. Although losing one townie for no gain is stupid, its better than risking the loss of three. Town can still win with two dead townies.
Post by: TricMagic on October 10, 2021, 07:08:30 pm
On the other hand, NJW is Mafia. That means we either have a Watcher/Tracker team, since claiming you can track and confirm Jack would be stupid if you couldn't. Or it's one of the other two.
Alternatively, Ninja. But given the roles involved? We'd have a Jailkeep who has no kill to protect from, two information roles, and a redirector. On top of Toony's Poison. And Lover in play. That's too crazy, but if true we'd need charts to track everything.
Looking at things, I can hope they could clear it up(they being Vector/Met). Met might be a vig, in which case we could save the poison kill. Hence him considering it 'death heavy'. With Lover that would certainly track.
That's also a possibility.What if mafia got a watcher, and NJW is scumbuddies with the watcher? The scumbuddy says "I saw NJW, Tric, and EJ visit Toonyman".Yes that is a possible argument. Who would be NJW's partner? Roden, Met, or Vector?
Then NJW reports 66% truthfully.
With that argument, Roden. It would be close to Roden's claim of tracker, and explain why NJW posted their watcher claim BEFORE Roden, who claimed tracker and was their Prime scum suspect all day 1.
Although, it might make more sense for the "mafia kill - Infect two with lovers" to also have a watcher ability tagged onto it.
... Jack, please Unvote? Well, Unvote. If there is a town vig in play, we could solve this.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:14:05 pm
... Jack, please Unvote? Well, Unvote. If there is a town vig in play, we could solve this.
OK.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 07:14:21 pm
Mafia didn't perform a mafiakill last night.
Evidence:
Nobody died, from my POV the only possibility a kill would have happened but failed would be if mafia tried to kill me and Jack protected it, but NJW's claim counters this unless exactly Tric is the would-be killer. In addition, mafia should attempt to kill Jack here every time as they are the doctor. Not me.
Speculation:
Mafia making two town players lovers, but also not killing anyone that night sounds reasonably balanced for this setup.
EuchreJackStop. We can talk through this.
Looking at things, I can hope they could clear it up(they being Vector/Met). Met might be a vig, in which case we could save the poison kill. Hence him considering it 'death heavy'. With Lover that would certainly track.This is a reasonable conclusion. Met also asked for a tracker to follow them N2 to confirm them which makes me think Met could be a N2+ one-shot vig or something.
I'm starting to get a picture of this setup. Maybe FoU gave town a bunch of ways to kill while mafia are trying to make town self-destruct each other with their abilities?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 07:16:11 pm
Evidence:Or if the killer was a third unknown player that NJW was withholding, but again why try to kill me when it was clear Jack would "jailkeep" me?
Nobody died, from my POV the only possibility a kill would have happened but failed would be if mafia tried to kill me and Jack protected it, but NJW's claim counters this unless exactly Tric is the would-be killer. In addition, mafia should attempt to kill Jack here every time as they are the doctor. Not me.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:19:31 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:22:47 pm
Maybe it was pick at start, pick at day 1, pick at night.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:24:15 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 07:26:41 pm
Why are we assuming that Lover-infector had to visit Toonyman? Why not have it trigger on visiting Tric instead? Or why require the visitation at all?You would be informed during the day if something happened to you. I wasn't informed of anything during Day 1. It wasn't a day ability.
Maybe it was pick at start, pick at day 1, pick at night.
For the other point, it's possible the Lover status could have transferred from Tric over to me, but in that case why weren't you struck with Lover sickness Jack?
Neither of these cases work.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:35:04 pm
For the other point, it's possible the Lover status could have transferred from Tric over to me, but in that case why weren't you struck with Lover sickness Jack?
It's Lover, not AIDS.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 07:42:42 pm
They simply targeted me and Tric and forgoed their kill if they even have one.
Or in the case of Tric being the mafia: Tric targeted me and made themselves lovers with me during N1, which seems like a very weak ability if they aren't able to mafiakill.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:50:34 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:51:43 pm
NJW->Tric
Or Me->Tric and NJW->Toonyman. It doesn't matter.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 07:54:33 pm
Assuming that Toonyman, TricMagic, EuchreJack, and NJW are town.This can never be true. At least one person is lying in this group. This group has at least one mafia.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 07:58:44 pm
Assuming that Toonyman, TricMagic, EuchreJack, and NJW are town.This can never be true. At least one person is lying in this group. This group has at least one mafia.
Why?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 08:03:35 pm
Nah, in my opinion the mafia have a role called One-Shot Lovers Magic [TRICMAGIC], [TOONYMAN] or something. It can't be a town role as nobody has owned up to doing it. I claimed to have done nothing. NJW claims to have watched me (with supporting evidence), Tric claims to have redirected myself onto Jack, and Jack claims to have jailkeeped me.
They simply targeted me and Tric and forgoed their kill if they even have one.
Or in the case of Tric being the mafia: Tric targeted me and made themselves lovers with me during N1, which seems like a very weak ability if they aren't able to mafiakill.
...it would be an even weaker replacement for a kill if they had to visit two people. And I could have roleblocked the redirect, cancelling it out.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 08:29:46 pm
Somebody made me and Tric lovers last night. We can confirm this between the two of us.Why?Assuming that Toonyman, TricMagic, EuchreJack, and NJW are town.This can never be true. At least one person is lying in this group. This group has at least one mafia.
NJW was watching me, this is at least a partially truthful claim as they had unknowable knowledge otherwise. They most likely gained this information themselves as they slammed down their results immediately at the start of Day 2.
Somebody targeted me (and Tric presumably) with Lover status last night.
1. I can't be lying as that would mean Jack was roleblocking me and Tric was redirecting me onto Jack, it's not possible for me to Lovers Tric.
2. Tric could be lying and actually targeted me with Lovers.
3. Jack could be lying and actually targeted me with Lovers.
4. NJW could be lying and is withholding a third player who targeted me and Tric, this would have to be their mafia partner OR they have an ability that watches that player AND puts Lovers on them and another player, which sounds broken and unlikely.
The only way all of us are being truthful is if the Lovers ability is undetectable, which would be bullshit and I'll boycott this game.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 08:36:22 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 09:19:06 pm
Somebody targeted me (and Tric presumably) with Lover status last night.
Did they? Why must it be that they targeted you? Why couldn't they have targeted Tric?
And I'm convinced that either you're both lying or your both town, as a one-for-one is awful for mafia.
Also, unless the mafia team is exactly Toonyman and Tric, we're at Mylo.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 09:24:52 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 09:28:11 pm
I pick a first target and a second, the first target targets the second. As Toony apparently doesn't have an ability/you telling the truth, nothing happened. Though didn't get an action failed message. No clue if that's normal if the one I targeted.. Well, given how Jailkeep works, guess I wouldn't.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 09:34:25 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 09:35:38 pm
I assume linking to the mafiascum wiki isn't illegal.
Toonyman, you didn't chose to make me your lover. Ergo, we are not. Yes, I visited you, and yes it isn't Tric, but I didn't get you the status.
We don't have any idea how the lover skill works. Take the Redirector above. Tric didn't visit me with that ability. We don't know how this lover thingy works.
...which makes sense since the delayer last round was a "new" role that FOU sorta created. We're all guinea pigs here, unfortunately.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2021, 09:37:27 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 10:18:31 pm
A watcher sees what players targeted their target.
I targeted no one.
NJW claims they only targeted me.
Tric claims they targeted me and Jack.
Jack claims they only targeted me.
"Visit" doesn't mean anything here. When a player redirects someone to another they don't go inside their houses. When a player jailkeeps someone they don't go inside their house. A watcher will just see who targeted that player. There are exceptions here, but everyone's claims mostly line up with what NJW has claimed. One exception would be if this Lover ability had a ninja passive which would allow it to bypass a watcher's notice, but I find that hard to believe right now.
If someone was watching you last night Jack then we would know whether or not Tric had targeted you, as you were one of Tric's targets.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 10, 2021, 10:24:52 pm
We don't have any idea how the lover skill works.We don't, but it has to be a targeting ability. It either targets one player or two players. There is no other way. Somebody did this.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 12:39:33 am
Well that looks bad for me.
So fun fact. I kinda lied about my power, but thought Redirect could be used that way. Fal kindly informed me that it very much wasn't possible, so I targeted Toony and redirected him to Jack.
Also, I got hit by the Lover effect last night. Which means that Jack's ability isn't what he claims, since it's Toonyman I'm lover's with. Which if he was jailed, shouldn't have happened. I guess I'd be hit by it, but not Toony.
As for the end of day, I thought I had a few more hours. This is the first time in forever a day has ended while the sun was still up for me. So I was still pressuring.
Nin.
Read the underlined text, Toonyman. I wasn't targeted. That isn't how Tric's ability works. One target, that being you, naming another player, that being me.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 12:41:02 am
Tric claims they targeted me and Jack.
Why do you keep repeating this when it is wrong? See above. I wasn't targeted AS PER TRIC.
Post by: Metruption on October 11, 2021, 03:29:58 am
unfortunately i'm not confirmable today because what the fuck, but i think the fact that literally nobody is dead is proof that what i said wasn't a scumslipMetMet
Proof I'm mostly unavailable
Let me explain this post.
I wanted to vote Met to get the lynch, since I was thinking about the game and felt someone scumslipped. So I looked over the posts, and it was Met that made the post. Tric's jumping onto me to tie and keep Met alive was highly suspicious, so I wanted to vote. But I was on my cell phone, and I couldn't easily color the vote red. That proves I was "mostly unavailable", since I was using a phone while interacting with other, and that delay cost the vote.
Personally, I think Tric is either mafia with Met or Tric is Mafia-ally that thinks Met is mafia. Only one way to be sure...
Post by: Metruption on October 11, 2021, 03:32:41 am
@are you using Normal Action Resolution to determine the order of night actions this game?
Post by: Metruption on October 11, 2021, 03:35:29 am
.. If we go with Jack being the Mafia(or me), then it might not be best if we know what the other two did. Then again, it could be helpful. I err on the side of not knowing what they can do, since that means Mafia won't either.my pronouns are they/them
On the other hand, NJW is Mafia. That means we either have a Watcher/Tracker team, since claiming you can track and confirm Jack would be stupid if you couldn't. Or it's one of the other two.
Alternatively, Ninja. But given the roles involved? We'd have a Jailkeep who has no kill to protect from, two information roles, and a redirector. On top of Toony's Poison. And Lover in play. That's too crazy, but if true we'd need charts to track everything.
Looking at things, I can hope they could clear it up(they being Vector/Met). Met might be a vig, in which case we could save the poison kill. Hence him considering it 'death heavy'. With Lover that would certainly track.That's also a possibility.What if mafia got a watcher, and NJW is scumbuddies with the watcher? The scumbuddy says "I saw NJW, Tric, and EJ visit Toonyman".Yes that is a possible argument. Who would be NJW's partner? Roden, Met, or Vector?
Then NJW reports 66% truthfully.
With that argument, Roden. It would be close to Roden's claim of tracker, and explain why NJW posted their watcher claim BEFORE Roden, who claimed tracker and was their Prime scum suspect all day 1.
Although, it might make more sense for the "mafia kill - Infect two with lovers" to also have a watcher ability tagged onto it.
... Jack, please Unvote? Well, Unvote. If there is a town vig in play, we could solve this.
I won't fullclaim the nature of my role but it involves interaction with the dead.
Post by: Metruption on October 11, 2021, 03:39:55 am
I'm still not confirmable tonight by tracker.
Post by: Roden on October 11, 2021, 04:15:11 am
Post by: Metruption on October 11, 2021, 05:14:17 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 11, 2021, 09:36:05 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 11, 2021, 09:57:03 am
Given Lover isn't going to kill Toony immediately, and is probably related to the mafia.. I really hope they don't have a kill so they can just instant-win over the night. Outside of info Vector could give, poisoning me and lynching jack is probably best. Unless we can figure out an alternative where it...
NJW is the reason we think there are two people who targeted Toony, me and Jack. So any team setup where the three of us are town requires that he be mafia, which overturns the validity of his watch result.
Meta, did you do anything last night. Same question with Vector. Who did you target if so? That's really the only other option we have.
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2021, 09:57:44 am
my pronouns are they/them
I'm just going to step in and say that Metruption having to say this twice in the same game is fucked up. Get it right and keep it right guys, sheesh.
I have a bunch of posts isolated, I'm putting something together.
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2021, 10:11:41 am
Why is Met pretty town to you?
I think that at the time I felt scum going out of their way to explain 7 v 2 mafia and lylo/mylo was not so likely:
in 5v2 you absolutely want to yeet every time
if you don't yeet the it's 4v2 next day which means you either yeet correctly (which is harder to do than in 3v2 because more townies to hit) so you can choose to not yeet and then give scum another night kill. just having the wagon analysis is so nice
But I also liked this post. It's dense with a few good points.
I don't like jack's play. It's similar to last game but instead of never taking a real stance this game jack is taking many weak stances. NJW seems like a player I will have difficulty reading. Ultimately I'll have to do some kind of agenda meta analysis. The way Tric tunnels on roden is notable
Ultimately I'm neutral now. I think the pro-town evidence is weaker but there are also far more scumtells from other people; so I am inclined to pay more attention to them first instead of the lurker who has too much going on. The day's kind of exploded.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 11, 2021, 10:11:52 am
Whoever voted to save me is absolutely town because scum would just pretend to be afk and take a free yeet.That would be Tric. I'm starting to feel the same that Tric is just town.
I'm still not confirmable tonight by tracker.Is this because nobody is dead still?
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2021, 10:12:40 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 11, 2021, 10:17:07 am
Sorry, had a really busy day. I Tracked Jack and he did target Toony.Thank you for the claim. Why did you decide on Jack?
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2021, 10:22:25 am
Claim: I Watched ToonyMan. He was visited by TricMagic and EuchreJack.[/i]
Possibly there would have been an advantage from holding some of that back, maybe claiming watcher instead, but eh, I think I'd have had to lie about my role or something and I don't like that kind of gambit.
I am having a really hard time understanding how these two statements work together.
Of Metruption, Roden, and EJ, who do you presently think is most likely to be scum based on EoD?Sorry, should have answered this earlier, impolite of me.
Only Euchre was really present at end of day, right? Jack lunging to make the kill happen was exactly what he did as scum last game, but he could have genuinely suspected Met. As I've said, Met was basically anti-town, not sure I'd assign scum yet though. And yeah, I assume Roden wasn't lying about being asleep, but I still think Roden/Jack is a pretty plausible team. Hard to decide between Jack or Roden, but Roden does gutread a bit worse to me.
Anyhow, we now have claims and mechanical information, so... any particular reason for this specific question?
I think analyzing the end of day is still helpful even with mechanical claims.
Eh? I explained why I read you as scum D1. Vector asked me to post reads on three players based on the end of yesterday, if this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8319446#msg8319446)post is what you're worried about. Odd thing to ask D2, but whatever.
I really don't understand why it's so weird to ask about EoD wagons at the start of D2 when -- note -- I was the first to post and there was no mechanical information available.
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2021, 10:23:48 am
Hypothesis:
Mafia didn't perform a mafiakill last night.
Evidence:
Nobody died, from my POV the only possibility a kill would have happened but failed would be if mafia tried to kill me and Jack protected it, but NJW's claim counters this unless exactly Tric is the would-be killer. In addition, mafia should attempt to kill Jack here every time as they are the doctor. Not me.
Speculation:
Mafia making two town players lovers, but also not killing anyone that night sounds reasonably balanced for this setup.EuchreJackStop. We can talk through this.Looking at things, I can hope they could clear it up(they being Vector/Met). Met might be a vig, in which case we could save the poison kill. Hence him considering it 'death heavy'. With Lover that would certainly track.This is a reasonable conclusion. Met also asked for a tracker to follow them N2 to confirm them which makes me think Met could be a N2+ one-shot vig or something.
I'm starting to get a picture of this setup. Maybe FoU gave town a bunch of ways to kill while mafia are trying to make town self-destruct each other with their abilities?
I like this speculation post.
Same question with Vector. Who did you target if so? That's really the only other option we have.
I didn't do anything or target anyone. My role is 100% passive.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 11, 2021, 12:11:29 pm
Spoiler: replies to Vector (click to show/hide)
Now that those essential matters are out of the way, let's get to the interesting bit: who we eliminate.
I know Euchre and Tric actioned Toony and nobody else did. Euchre claimed to jailkeep Toony and Tric claimed to redirect him to Jack. Toony and Tric claim to have been made delayed-lovers.
Three possibilities present themselves. I don't think anything else can have happened unless someone has a ninja matchmaker role or something.
1) Toony and Tric are in cahoots and lying to us. This would be nuts mafia play, but is possible.
2) EuchreJack made them lovers - simple and very plausible
3) Tric Lovers'd themselves with Toony. Not completely implausible: town!Toony is unlikely to be eliminated if he kills scum, while Scum!Tric potentially taking Toony out with him would be attractive to mafia.
(I don't think Toony can have actioned the lovers'ing, as both EuchreJack and Tric's claimed actions would have interfered with Toony lovers'ing Tric, and I assume two scum max)
On the basis of this, I think killing EuchreJack would be a good plan. Then killing Tric, if Jack flips town - Toony can fire his kill before he dies easily enough, if that's a concern.
I don't think there's anything I'm missing. Other people can't necessarily use this reasoning unless they trust my watch results, but right now my plan is to vote Jack.
If anyone spots any holes in my logic, please do point them out.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 12:32:08 pm
Looks at Meta and Jack. To note, my ability does require I pick two targets. The first which I'm redirecting, and the second which is the new target. And Meta, we already went through this, read the thread. Not just pop in, claim a death-related role, then pop out. I remember the game with the necromancer claiming Medium.
Thanks Tric.
Since we're in mylo if Toonyman and Tric are not lying mafia, mafia is one within NJW/EJ.
Or maybe we need to lynch FallacyofUrist as a bastard GM. I'd like to see the worse version when this is all over.
Anyways, the thought occurs to me that NJW and myself should crossvote, and Toonyman should poison anyone that tries to untie the vote.
The theory is that if one mafia exists within NJW/EJ and we're in mylo, then only mafia would untie the vote, so killing them gets us out of the losing state.
So: NJW
Additionally, I can help more as Jailkeeper:
I am hereby committing myself to use my Jailkeeper ability on Tric or Toonyman. I will decide my target randomly, either through a flip of a coin, a RNG, or some other way.
This helps Town because should the mafia team be Tric and Toonyman, I have a 50% chance of stopping their kill. Or should the mafia team be anyone else, they have to either try the double kill at 50% odds of success or kill someone else.
This is an alternative plan to NJW's since I believe Tric, Toonyman, and myself to be town.
It also interfers with NJW's plan, and since I think NJW is 66% truthful mafia, I like that.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 12:37:24 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 11, 2021, 12:51:34 pm
@mod if a player is targeted by a jailkeeper are they targetable by any other actions at night?
@are you using Normal Action Resolution to determine the order of night actions this game?
A base Jailkeeper ability, as per the wiki, would only protect the target from kills specifically.
Yes (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution/Normal_Game), unless you mean something else.
Caveat: The nature of this game's setup means oddities in the resolution are unlikely but possible.
(Considering it's useful information for newer players, I'll probably put this link in my original post for any future mafia games I run.)
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2021, 12:57:14 pm
Reads.
Toony - I am almost certain that Toony is town, based solely on daygame. This reads overwhelmingly like Toony's town game to me.
NJW - I'm neutral on NJW at this point. It's possible that he's scum (I haven't seen him as scum before) but I also think at this point that's tinfoil hat thinking. There are better targets.
Met has done nothing particularly town or scum in my point of view. If they are scum, they are lurking scum over proactive scum. Claims a role having something to do with the dead in a game with open flips and no deadchat, which is a little weird.
Roden is also lurking.
Euchrejack has been freaking out a lot any time that people suggest that the scumteam is EJ/Tric. Also self-voting which is just... extremely fucked up if they're a town doctor/roleblocker.
Tric revealed being lovers'd with Toony and tied D1, along with pinging my scumdar earlier for sounding fairly reasonable. Claims redirector.
Additionally: If Toony/Tric is town/town, I think it would be better to let the scum take them out. There's absolutely no reason why they need to suicide today when the scum could instead grab a double kill or leave them alone for the wifom.
If they're town/scum, then there's another scum available and that scum wants to keep Toony alive (or Tric... I guess). This is honestly pretty good, too.
If they're scum/scum lovers then Toony is offering to daykill Tric AND himself? why. What would that possibly get them other than killed. Sure they could have something in their pockets but this is ONLY lylo/mylo if one of them is town, so they would need some other way to kill a couple people tonight after the daykill + lovers move failed to resolve.
If Tric is scum I'm fairly confident his partner is EuchreJack.
Otherwise I think the team is Roden/Met.
My opinion at this point is that if this is LYLO/MYLO, everyone should claim, since it will help us root out the scumteam through fakeclaims. I'll continue the trend: I'm an ascetic with some restrictions. For example, I'm NKable.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 01:04:08 pm
If the tracker were to target the Redirector redirecting Player A's action onto Player B, what would their results be?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 01:13:21 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 11, 2021, 01:19:02 pm
As for Vector. He's NKable. And immune to lovers. Does that mean Lovers isn't a mafia thing? Or does it mean we have an SK in play? Or does mafia have both lovers and a night kill.(Which would likely be 1-shot)
If the middle, that means Met is lying through his teeth. Or Vector is the one lying and is mafia with NJW. Mets too suspicious.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 01:21:03 pm
Euchrejack has been freaking out a lot any time that people suggest that the scumteam is EJ/Tric.
....
If Tric is scum I'm fairly confident his partner is EuchreJack.
Otherwise I think the team is Roden/Met.
My opinion at this point is that if this is LYLO/MYLO, everyone should claim, since it will help us root out the scumteam through fakeclaims. I'll continue the trend: I'm an ascetic with some restrictions. For example, I'm NKable.
Nice try Vector, but I'm not taking the scum bait. I'm heavily scum reading you for this. If anyone else thinks the scum team might be Tric and myself, I'd love to hear the explanation.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 01:27:47 pm
Right. At this point not sure what your gameplan is jack. I get getting out of this.. But I don't really understand how.
I'd like to see a no-lynch, followed by mafia killing someone that isn't you or Toonyman. It also puts town in a good spot D3, as opposed to the ELO that both of your deaths would entail.
Post by: TricMagic on October 11, 2021, 01:32:23 pm
Not the worst idea. Not the best, but not the worst. Issue with it is of course if someone dies we are in a worse spot, not a better one. That leaves us with 6 people, and if Toony uses their poison and we'll both town, we'd lose that day anyway.Right. At this point not sure what your gameplan is jack. I get getting out of this.. But I don't really understand how.
I'd like to see a no-lynch, followed by mafia killing someone that isn't you or Toonyman. It also puts town in a good spot D3, as opposed to the ELO that both of your deaths would entail.
Too many moving parts, and if one goes wrong they all do. Will Aesthetic return a Action Failed if you try to Jail him?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 01:42:44 pm
Too many moving parts, and if one goes wrong they all do. Will Aesthetic return a Action Failed if you try to Jail him?
I think so, as would any other action. I can't roleblock or save Vector.
Suspicious that Vector would say:
I'm an ascetic with some restrictions. For example, I'm NKable.Since the definitions provided on mafia wiki (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ascetic) explicitly state that an ascetic can be night killed. But maybe I just missed 10 years ago when ascetic was created and it was immune to the NK.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 01:47:25 pm
Also, when I said better, I meant its better to have one dead townie than two dead townies. Most plans seems to risk two dead townies, even if one dies later on.Not the worst idea. Not the best, but not the worst. Issue with it is of course if someone dies we are in a worse spot, not a better one. That leaves us with 6 people, and if Toony uses their poison and we'll both town, we'd lose that day anyway.Right. At this point not sure what your gameplan is jack. I get getting out of this.. But I don't really understand how.
I'd like to see a no-lynch, followed by mafia killing someone that isn't you or Toonyman. It also puts town in a good spot D3, as opposed to the ELO that both of your deaths would entail.
Too many moving parts, and if one goes wrong they all do. Will Aesthetic return a Action Failed if you try to Jail him?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 01:49:10 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 11, 2021, 02:02:46 pm
@Toonyman: How much leeway do you have on your ability's day use? I mean, could you submit it after the vote? Otherwise my plan has the flaw that it creates a snipe hunt, wherein mafia could put in their vote 2 seconds before the deadline.I can't submit a day action after the day elimination, the day is officially over when that happens.
Vector claims ascetic, but I don't know how that would interact with a watcher.
I have multiple reasons to believe Tric is not mafia based on their behavior. I can try to list these reasons tonight. I also want to go into the psyche of Jack and NJW.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 11, 2021, 02:37:10 pm
@NJW: Do you know if a watcher sees an Ascetic that visits another player?I assume so as I'm not targeting the ascetic, I'm targeting the visited player.
I'd also like to note here that, as people have probably guessed, my watcher action has what you *might* call certain restrictions. At present, I'm going to withhold information on what they are for strategic reasons, but will claim these if it becomes necessary.
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2021, 03:01:42 pm
As for Vector. He's NKable.
I'm not a he, so knock it off.
Suspicious that Vector would say:I'm an ascetic with some restrictions. For example, I'm NKable.Since the definitions provided on mafia wiki (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ascetic) explicitly state that an ascetic can be night killed. But maybe I just missed 10 years ago when ascetic was created and it was immune to the NK.
Huh, I didn't know. I assumed that because my rolename is "limited ascetic" that it was non-standard. I'm also daykillable of course :)
Anyway: my role has an actual twist/restriction, which I... guess I will share now. If my ascetic auto triggers then I stop being an ascetic for a cycle of day + night. I also won't be informed about whether the auto is on or off. So actions you take on me may or may not succeed, idk ;_;
@Vector: Are you still voting NJW2000?
Oops, Unvote. Roden, you around?
Nice try Vector, but I'm not taking the scum bait. I'm heavily scum reading you for this. If anyone else thinks the scum team might be Tric and myself, I'd love to hear the explanation.
You're heavily scum reading me for what exactly?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 09:23:24 pm
Euchrejack has been freaking out a lot any time that people suggest that the scumteam is EJ/Tric. Also self-voting which is just... extremely fucked up if they're a town doctor/roleblocker.
The reason I find this to be scummy is that it pushes me towards trying to deny the possibility of the EJ/Tric scumteam, which proves that "EuchreJack has been freaking out a lot any time people suggest that the scumteam is EJ/Tric". I feel you were trying to bait me into looking bad.
Now, should I try to point out the insane troll logic that you used to try to explain the scum team as EJ/Tric, I instead prove that I'm the scumbag. And that makes you the scumbag.
But, let's explore that, since I'm not just shooting my mouth off here. So, NJW watched both myself and Tric visit Toonyman. Both Tric and myself admitted to visiting Toonyman. Toonyman is still alive, albeit is now infected with a delayed mutual annihilation ability with Tric. Essentially, if the scumteam had a working N1 nightkill (which I dunno, maybe they didn't), how exactly is Toonyman still alive if the scumteam is EJ/Tric!?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 09:25:50 pm
I *think* I've been freaking out about a lot of things. In fact, I'm pretty sure a lot of my play has been "freaking out". I'm not proud of it, but I own it.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 09:28:20 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 11, 2021, 10:01:15 pm
1.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
2.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
3.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Some other things:
I think some of Jack's behavior this round has SCREAMED their past town self, which makes me unwilling to vote them. The problem is that I don't think NJW is lying either, so...what the fuck happened? Currently between NJW and Jack I would in fact vote Jack over NJW just purely based on mechanical knowledge as NJW is definitely some kind of watcher while Jack is unknown and should have been the top kill target last night.
Jack being mafia also pisses me off because I think their most likely partner is Vector, which is the exact same team as the last round. I guess Roden would be the second most likely, but that just makes me more upset.
Not really feeling Met anymore from what they've said Day 2. Look at the part I highlighted in bold:
This is supposed to be mostly vanilla but it seems like a lot of the high impact roles this setup are bastard. Also, the fact everyone has a power role makes this so scumsided because people are too busy trying to figure out what happened instead of just catching scum. Whoever voted to save me is absolutely town because scum would just pretend to be afk and take a free yeet.This statement I believe would be very difficult for a mafia player to find the mindset for.
I'm still not confirmable tonight by tracker.
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2021, 10:44:34 pm
@Euchre: You're wrong about my motivation for pointing out your flailing. I'll leave it at that.
I'm voting Roden because they're lurking and under the circumstances of everything going to shit like it just did, I'm surprised they haven't had more to say. Have they even posted Today?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 10:55:13 pm
Toonyman, mechanically there is absolutely no way that I can prove to you that I am a jailkeeper. You have to find another player that you cleared with an active ability with one charge remaining (so apparently not Tric, who used his only charge). I could jailkeeper NJW, and then they would know I'm telling the truth, but that hardly helps you. And with the mutual suicide bomb attached to you and Tric, I don't think we can afford for me to do anything different than what I already promised.
But if you have a plan in which all players commit to specific night actions, so that during the next day phase we can confirm more town and route out mafia, I'm all ears.
You have:
Roden - Claimed tracker
NJW - Claimed watcher
EJ - Claimed jailkeeper
Vector - Claimed Ascetic
Met - Claimed...not really clear, apparently only useful after someone dies?
Toonyman - Claimed daykiller, Lover with Tric
Tric - Claimed redirector, although may no longer be able to use the ability, Lover with Toonyman
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 10:56:31 pm
Sorry, had a really busy day. I Tracked Jack and he did target Toony. I'm kinda baffled by everything that's happened today, but the thing I'm most confused about is how Toony got a Lovers effect if Jack Jailed him. I'm pretty sure Jailkeeper protects from all lethal effects? So either Jack lied about his action, NJW lied about the total visits Toony had, Tric lied about his action and is a Strongman, or scum have a Ninja Strongman Lovers Maker. Which uhhh what the fuck.
Roden's one-and-only post.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 11, 2021, 10:58:01 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 12:03:22 am
Also if Roden is being truthful it means Jack is unlikely to be lying so there's that. Not sure why Jack would want to lynch someone who backs up their credibility, even if the claim would be easy to fake for today it would not be so easy in the future. We could make Roden claim their track result before anyone says anything.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 12:08:12 am
@Toony so you're proposing a team from me, Roden, and NJW?Yes I think two mafia are inside Jack/Roden/Vector/NJW right now with Jack and NJW being mutually exclusive.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 12:12:28 am
Why did you redirect me N1 even though I only claimed a day ability?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 12, 2021, 03:04:54 am
Perhaps it was both.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (1): Vector
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (1): TricMagic
NJW2000 (1): EuchreJack
Vector (0):
Metruption (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (4): ToonyMan, Roden, NJW2000, Metruption
4 to hammer.
Day 2 ends noon today, or in approximately 9 hours.
Post by: Metruption on October 12, 2021, 05:21:11 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 06:57:07 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 07:01:35 am
Toonyman, mechanically there is absolutely no way that I can prove to you that I am a jailkeeper.NJW claims you targeted me and Roden claims you targeted me and only me. That would make it difficult for you to have lovers me and Tric.
So I either believe my own top two town soulreads are scum, Jack and Roden. Or that the scum team is NJW and Vector.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 08:05:03 am
2. Nobody will be able to answer my questions in time for it to matter
3. Mafia haven't killed
Maybe we should no lynch again
Jack hasn't even THOUGHT of the idea today that the lack of kill might be because they jailkeeped me? Like seriously how do I read this? Is this mafia!Jack slipping or is this town!Jack making me lose my mind? The fact I am even losing my mind over Jack makes me 90% sure they're town behaviorally. I cannot vote them! But I don't want to vote NJW either because they're definitely a watcher at least! Tric is town! Met is town! Roden is town!
Vector
Post by: TricMagic on October 12, 2021, 09:30:05 am
@TricMagic:Because at the moment I was thinking of a Toony/Jack team. So I wanted to make sure any ability you used would hit your partner in this. And if they weren't there was still the chance it would catch you in a lie. Also the fact I had the suspicion that your poison kill would only trigger if there was a lynch as why no-one died day 1.
Why did you redirect me N1 even though I only claimed a day ability?
.. Right now Jack claims to roleblock you, Roden tracked Jack, NJW confirms who visited you. And your own posts convincing me you are town. There isn't really any situation where you could be scum in this scenario, other than Jack using something else on you.. Which is silly given Jack's claim.
... I was thinking Jack could be confirmed if things aligned. (And lost my train of thought.)
Cross-Examination (https://youtu.be/6LLCrKLZdlY?t=635)
Jack claims Jailer on day 1. Roden says they will track them. For Jack to use Lovers would be a risk, so his partner would need to do so. In this case it has to be Roden who did it.. [In this case, Jack couldn't use Lovers, otherwise Roden would have seen him.] Therefore his partner would need to do so.[In this case, we can rule out NJW as Jack's partner. The information he gave wouldn't be obtainable otherwise] We can't rule out a team of me and Jack mechanically, but I claimed my ability beforehand with the intention of using it. Even with not being able to direct someone onto me, [it would have been noticed normally if they had an action.]
So in this case, for Jack to be Mafia, he'd need a partner. That partner would need to be able to either bypass watch checks, or infect me with Lovers. Which I'd then spread to my target. That makes Jack's possible partners (Roden, Meta, or Vector).
Vector could be able to bypass Watch checks. Meta has a death-related role, making him the one who could pass Lovers. Roden was the tracker, confirming Jack only visited Toony.
... So we arrive at the same issue. This line went nowhere... So we are still at the crossroads where one of us is lying. But Vector is the one person who could turn this case on it's head. I think it's safe to say we don't have invest...
Meta, you can determine the causes of death can't you? Or rather, what actions were used on them.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 12, 2021, 09:46:25 am
Have any soul reads Met? I don't really feel pressured until mafia can prove they can kill.Mafia have used a potentially lethal ability. Unless you're lying about the lovers thing, mafia have already advanced at least one tick towards their final goal of outnumbering town. This is just so wrong.
You really want to lynch someone who isn't part of the me/Tric/Jack someone-must-be-lying trio? That seems pretty strongly counterindicated, especially if you have a hard townread on Jack.
Vector
Post by: Vector on October 12, 2021, 09:56:28 am
Roden is town!
Darling, Roden's one and only post today "confirmed" an action that they had already heard about and then they disappeared. What the everloving fuck. My dude.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 10:48:39 am
I noticed we have a tracker and a watcher, it's possible town wouldn't be blessed with both of these roles unless someone was immune to actions like that such as an Ascetic!!
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 10:51:57 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 10:56:48 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 11:10:34 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 11:33:12 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 12, 2021, 11:37:05 am
Final note: If Euchre did the lovers'ing, Roden is lying --> scum. If Jack and I flip town, then either Tric is lockscum or some crazy stuff like ninja matchmaking or Toony having a lovers passive went on.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 12, 2021, 11:40:28 am
@FOU: Please confirm Roden has voted Vector. I don't see it.
I suspect Vector as well, but as a Ninja. Hm, but is it enough to vote? If Vector was a Ninja, then NJW could be telling the truth.
Fine. Daykill me or Vector then, ideally me so town can actually use information about the Lovers thing, and help me lynch EuchreJack.
We won't be able to use the info until the next day.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 12, 2021, 11:42:24 am
Post by: EuchreJack on October 12, 2021, 11:45:37 am
Post by: EuchreJack on October 12, 2021, 11:49:04 am
NJW watches me
Roden tracks me
I jailkeeper Tric or Toonyman (50/50, determined randomly)
At least NJW would start to get a clear picture on what is going on.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 11:53:41 am
Post by: EuchreJack on October 12, 2021, 11:56:57 am
Nah, keep your vote free.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 12, 2021, 11:57:52 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 12, 2021, 11:59:10 am
Post by: EuchreJack on October 12, 2021, 11:59:28 am
Post by: Roden on October 12, 2021, 11:59:40 am
I Tracked Jack because I claimed that I would. NJW happened to have results similar to mine, but realistically speaking there's no way I could've planned for that if I was fake claiming. I could track Tric or NJW tonight depending on what everyone feels is the better option, or NJW could Watch Tric while I Track Tric so that we can prove our roles.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 12, 2021, 12:00:22 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 12, 2021, 12:01:08 pm
Post by: Roden on October 12, 2021, 12:09:21 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 12, 2021, 01:24:14 pm
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (1): Vector
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (2): TricMagic, NJW2000
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (2): ToonyMan, EuchreJack
Metruption (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (2): Roden, Metruption
4 to hammer.
TricMagic and NJW2000 nodded to each other, and lunged after EuchreJack, who made a small 'eep' and hid behind his own chosen ally, ToonyMan. Meanwhile Vector made a clean getaway.
The chiming continued. There was only so much time to go around. Eventually, an end would be found. But the hand of death did not strike on this evening.
As there was a tie, nobody was executed.
It is now Night 2. Night 2 will end at around 4 PM, Central time, Wednesday, or earlier if I receive all needed actions quickly and have the time to process them.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 13, 2021, 05:16:57 pm
What had happened? Nobody had fallen - surely this was good, but why had it occurred? The mystery cut sharply into the grouped detectives.
Today's breakfast was canned soup. Not bad, all things considered. But there was no unity to be found in sharing food. Not now. There was only tension.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
Metruption (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (7): ToonyMan, Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, Metruption
4 to hammer.
It is now Day 3. Day 3 will end 5 PM, Friday, Central/Forum time (around 48 hours in the future) - or when a hammer occurs.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 05:21:26 pm
Roden needs to claim before anyone else does.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 13, 2021, 05:35:53 pm
Also, I think you may have failed to read something properly, Toony. Not entirely sure about this. I think your daykill, if you have one, may be there for a very specific reason.
Post by: Roden on October 13, 2021, 05:57:18 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 06:09:32 pm
I Tracked Tric, he didn't do anything. No kill again just makes me assume Lovers is scum's obtuse kill method, and we likely have another pair.He did mention his redirect was one-shot on D1.
Okay NJW you can say whatever.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 07:23:21 pm
I Tracked Tric, he didn't do anything. No kill again just makes me assume Lovers is scum's obtuse kill method, and we likely have another pair.
Or mafia, despite my warnings and obviousness, decided to try killing Toonyman again. I rolled the rng, got Toonyman, and jailkeeper'd him.
If that is true, I might be able to deduct the mafia team from that fact. Others would depend on whether they believe me or not.
Whom would roll the dice on a 50/50 for two dead townies, and who would kill other targets?
No lovers on me.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 07:25:39 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 13, 2021, 07:38:11 pm
Ok. Scum know this information, so I'll make it public immediately.
I was hit with the lovers effect. I die the day after if Tric is eliminated. Note that it has to be through elimination for me to die. This is why I'd like Toonyman to daykill Tric, while we lynch EuchreJack.
Either Tric is doing the lovers'ing, in which case it looks like the ability is one-target, or EuchreJack is part of a scumteam and has a two-target ability.
In either case, Roden must have falsely reported a night result, unless someone interfered with a tracking action. At this point, I'm pretty sure Roden's scum. (I would actually consider us killing both me and Roden today, but I guess that might be taking a risk that their night result was due to a redirect or similar.)
That's all the information I have. I couldn't use my ability tonight because of the caveats FoU put on it.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 07:51:42 pm
If Tric and I survive until end of day, shouldn't I jailkeeper Tric?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 07:55:34 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 13, 2021, 07:56:59 pm
@NJW: How do you know you got lovers from Tric?I did not say this. I know I am lovers with Tric - or at least that I die the day after he's eliminated. No guarantee it works the same way for him.
If Tric and I survive until end of day, shouldn't I jailkeeper Tric?
Ideally neither of you will be alive at day end, but sure, I guess you should consider it. Announcing your plan for the night may backfire, especially if you don't know many people's abilities, but it would certainly be an option.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 08:08:16 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 13, 2021, 08:23:51 pm
Roden could be telling the truth if Tric's accomplice did the Lover'ing to you. I'm surprised you didn't consider that possibility.That would mean that the ability is two-target, in which case scum would have chosen to target themselves both nights - an odd decision, to say the least.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 08:28:08 pm
I thought Tric's earlier discussion about Toonyman's day kill and the suggestion that mafia might not have a kill was relevant. The full post is below, spoilered for length:It's not so absurd if the mafia don't have a kill. And this probobly explains where the idea came from. Or at least not a traditional one. A poisoner kill would mean someone with a daykill would be useful near game end.But...how do we know that Toonyman's daykill is Town-aligned? Maybe FOU gave the mafia a daykill?Ah, I miss these absurd reasonings. You're either town!Jack or playing mafia well.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 08:34:33 pm
Roden could be telling the truth if Tric's accomplice did the Lover'ing to you. I'm surprised you didn't consider that possibility.That would mean that the ability is two-target, in which case scum would have chosen to target themselves both nights - an odd decision, to say the least.
Ah, another error on your part. Wouldn't it be easier for the ability to say something like "X player becomes Lovers with Tric?"
Essentially an infection where mafia gets everyone linked to Tric, then pushes for the elim of Tric who's basically become a Jester?
That was actually my first idea, and the fact you didn't think of it, is a bit odd.
And if Roden and Tric are scumbuddies, why would Roden track Tric and try to clear Tric? In fact, Tric's most likely scum buddy would be trying to avoid as much attention as possible, as they've bascially become a survivor under your theory. And yet you think it's the highly-visible Roden? Nobody else?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 08:39:17 pm
During the night I scratched up a bunch of notes while at work. I don't have access to the files right now, but I did theorize that Tric is the most suspicious out of NJW/Tric/Jack and that Roden would be their partner in this situation.
I'm a pretty logical person, this is the biggest reason Tric was confusing me so much as their actions are not logical, but it is the most likely scenario as I am more sure of Jack being town than Tric.
After some more discussion I will most likely agree to your plan. I will poison Tric today. I am unsure who we should lynch, but Tric is almost certainly lying about their ability. After some thinking and rethinking I believe Tric/Roden are the mafia and I will try to explain exactly why during the course of this day. If my theory is wrong then that leaves me with NJW/Vector again, but Tric is more suspicious than NJW or Jack.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 08:44:37 pm
Nothing of note happened to me last night besides the fact I still have Lovers with Tric. NJW is correct in how the Lovers effect works. I did not describe how it works exactly yesterday, but even so he has confirmed that it triggers specifically on execution.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 08:49:20 pm
We should leave Jack alive so that he can jailkeep Tric during this night as Tric will still be able to do stuff tonight and we don't exactly want that.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 08:55:34 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 13, 2021, 09:08:39 pm
I should really read more though. Panicking over nothing. Skip Day. Well, go ahead Toony. Note that you're next NJW.
Not that it would mean much, but note Vector is still likely your partner in this. Or it's Jack/Roden, but eh.
Post by: TricMagic on October 13, 2021, 09:13:41 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 09:18:55 pm
Jack isn't dead. Jack should have always been the kill last night. I wrote in bold over and over that Jack would be the kill 100% of the time last night. Instead NJW was hit by Lovers, so yeah. That means NJW is town...unless someone else wants to claim they were hit by Lovers too last night? Any takers? Roden?
One mafia inside of NJW/Jack/Tric.
Jack is always town. NJW is most likely town.
Tric is mafia.
Vector/Met/Roden are the remainder, assuming one more mafia who is the most likely here?
Vector? Hardly, they've been on Tric's ass this whole game.
Met? Maybe, but also maybe not.
Roden? ...I will look into this.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 09:22:12 pm
Assuming that Tric is on a mafia team with the ability to link town players to die upon Tric's elimination, lets look at the claims of some other, less mentioned players:
Vector's claim makes more sense, as it basically makes Vector the semi-immune to the mafia's Lovers plague.
Met's claim makes less sense, since how do the words of the dead help when mafia is supposed to link up all the town and jester their own?
...and remember who saved Met from the lynch D1? Tric!
Met's been mainly playing as a survivor, and Tric tried to eliminate me D2, when I tried to eliminate Met on D1.
So I'm thinking Tric's partner is Met. Remember, for mafia to "win" with the elimination of Tric on the lynch, there must be another mafia player and that mafia player must outlive the town players who only die on the next day.
Just to Alternate Theory to NJW2000's theory isn't buried, I'm repeat it: NJW2000 is lying mafia.
... I kinda wonder why'd you push for the double elimination NJW. Would make more sense just to poison me and skip the lynch.
I should really read more though. Panicking over nothing. Skip Day. Well, go ahead Toony. Note that you're next NJW.
Not that it would mean much, but note Vector is still likely your partner in this. Or it's Jack/Roden, but eh.
Hey folks, which name is missing? ;D
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 09:26:29 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 09:46:42 pm
Hm, I was thinking again about Tric's claimed ability, and it seemed odd that Tric would chose to Redirect Toonyman's actions onto me, since Toonyman had no claimed action role. Redirecting either my or Roden's ability would prove our roles, and redirecting me onto Roden (or visa versa) would make sense if we were the suspected scum team.Yeah it would make more sense wouldn't it? It's another illogical choice from Tric.
I think the main reason a mafia!Tric would have to make up the "I redirected Toony to Jack" claim is that NJW outed the fact that Tric targeted me on N1. NJW and Tric are at odds with each other.
Let's think about how a Tric/Roden mafia team would decide their target on N2:
Toony - they have already lover'd me
Tric - no reason to target self
Roden - no reason to target partner
Vector - immune for at least one cycle
Met - already kind of suspicious, could easily get lynched on D3
NJW - a good target, the least likely to get lynched between Met and Jack
Jack - a decent target, not as suspicious as Met but more likely to get lynched than NJW anyway
Mafia don't want to Lovers someone who is likely to get lynched. NJW was the least likely to be lynched between NJW/Jack/Met. This is why NJW was hit with Lovers last night.
MetruptionI admit it's possible Tric is partners with Met, but Roden seems more likely to me. I will try to elaborate in the future.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 09:55:39 pm
@Toonyman: Does your Lovers work the same as NJW's, or differently?It is the same. In fact, NJW gave information that I never even stated on D2. He definitely knows fully how the effect works.
Post by: Roden on October 13, 2021, 10:22:09 pm
Ugh. There's the same problem as before: only I know that one of Tric and Euchre must be scum. Possibly there's a workaround here.I haven't faked any of my actions or results. I don't know what else to say, I've only told the truth and if you're town you'll just have to eat crow in the post game.
Ok. Scum know this information, so I'll make it public immediately.
I was hit with the lovers effect. I die the day after if Tric is eliminated. Note that it has to be through elimination for me to die. This is why I'd like Toonyman to daykill Tric, while we lynch EuchreJack.
Either Tric is doing the lovers'ing, in which case it looks like the ability is one-target, or EuchreJack is part of a scumteam and has a two-target ability.
In either case, Roden must have falsely reported a night result, unless someone interfered with a tracking action. At this point, I'm pretty sure Roden's scum. (I would actually consider us killing both me and Roden today, but I guess that might be taking a risk that their night result was due to a redirect or similar.)
That's all the information I have. I couldn't use my ability tonight because of the caveats FoU put on it.
Do you want to know why I asked you to target Tric? For one, it's bcause it's becoming more and more clear you're just tunneled on me, and I hoped hard proof would force you to actually scum hunt. But the second reason is that Tric's plays have been wild and unpredictable, and by forcing scum into a corner through mechanical clears we might actually make some headway. Because even if Tric is scum, we could mechanically prove whether or not Tric is doing Lovers shenanigans or if his partner was the one doing it.
What I don't understand is why you aren't considering Met and Vector as potential scum, nor why you haven't considered that scum might have a Ninja. With two movement investigation roles, it makes a lot more sense for scum to have a Ninja, especially if they can't directly kill and if Toony's role can neutralize their apparent only kill option.
I know Jack 100% didn't do the first Lovers because he only visited Toony Night 1. We know Tric doesn't have Ninja because you saw him visit Toony Night 1, and he 100% did not target anyone Night 2. Mechanically speaking, this means scum almost definitely has a Ninja. If Jack truly has been Jailing Toony every Night, which is believable due to my Night 1 results, then Toony cannot have ever made anyone Lovers. You NJW are most likely a Watcher, and while you're not conftown by any means I think it would be wild if you were a Multitasking Ninja Watcher.
That means the Ninja has to be either Met or Vector. The final proof of which is that even though you were asked to Watch Tric, scum still confidently targeted him with the Lovers mechanic. There's just too much pointing to this being the truth, and I'd appreciate it if you took a minute stop tunneling me to realize that this is a legitimate logical conclusion.
If you want further proof I'm not scum, I had opportunities for two days in a row to break ties and lynch you at the last minute, but I never did even though I could reasonably get away with it since you've been under suspicion and I'd made a scum case on you by Day 2.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 13, 2021, 10:36:48 pm
Roden, you said on D1 your tracking ability has a gate, what is this restriction?
Post by: Roden on October 13, 2021, 11:00:52 pm
My restriction is that I'm Roaming, I can't target the same player twice.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 11:32:00 pm
My restriction is that I'm Roaming, I can't target the same player twice.
Well, it explains why Roden targeted Tric when I suggested Roden target me: Roden targeted me N1, and couldn't target me N2.
I'd also point out that Tric keeps suspecting me and Roden, in support of NJW's suspicions of me and Roden.
But then again, Roden could just be buddying me.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2021, 11:46:01 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Met discussing his role - Note that "Not confirmable by tracker" bit (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hm, dunno. Was Tric distancing or trying to get a townie lynched? I dunno, so I'm leaving this here. Feel free to add to it!
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 07:27:59 am
Spoiler: Round 2 notes (click to show/hide)
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 07:42:10 am
I'm also quite sure mafia didn't or were not able to kill again last night, how can I determine this?
Jack isn't dead. Jack should have always been the kill last night. I wrote in bold over and over that Jack would be the kill 100% of the time last night. Instead NJW was hit by Lovers, so yeah. That means NJW is town...unless someone else wants to claim they were hit by Lovers too last night? Any takers? Roden?
One mafia inside of NJW/Jack/Tric.
Jack is always town. NJW is most likely town.
Tric is mafia.
Vector/Met/Roden are the remainder, assuming one more mafia who is the most likely here?
Vector? Hardly, they've been on Tric's ass this whole game.
Met? Maybe, but also maybe not.
Roden? ...I will look into this.
To note, I was the one hit by Lovers last night with NJW.
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 07:48:55 am
That means the Ninja has to be either Met or Vector. The final proof of which is that even though you were asked to Watch Tric, scum still confidently targeted him with the Lovers mechanic. There's just too much pointing to this being the truth, and I'd appreciate it if you took a minute stop tunneling me to realize that this is a legitimate logical conclusion.
Roden. How did you know I was targeted before I posted that information?
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 08:01:18 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 14, 2021, 08:12:37 am
Spoiler: largely inconsequential replies (click to show/hide)
Also, I really am not used to it ending during the day. Was a bit sick so I lay down and played video games. Then you come in and tie things on my vote. You're either really confident or saving your partner. Night.This appeared to be addressed to me, although it's pretty hard to tell. I didn't tie things yesterday. EuchreJack did, saving himself.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 08:28:53 am
During N3 Jack will jailkeep Tric.
Tric will die at the end of D4 and this should be a loophole because it specifically says he needs to die by execution for the lovers effect to trigger so me and NJW should remain alive.
For D4 our actions depend on Roden's flip.
If Roden was town: We take a serious look at Met and Vector.
If Roden was mafia: We probably win when Tric dies.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 08:33:19 am
Post by: Roden on October 14, 2021, 09:13:17 am
...What? NJW claimed both of you are Lovers.That means the Ninja has to be either Met or Vector. The final proof of which is that even though you were asked to Watch Tric, scum still confidently targeted him with the Lovers mechanic. There's just too much pointing to this being the truth, and I'd appreciate it if you took a minute stop tunneling me to realize that this is a legitimate logical conclusion.
Roden. How did you know I was targeted before I posted that information?
Ugh. There's the same problem as before: only I know that one of Tric and Euchre must be scum. Possibly there's a workaround here.
Ok. Scum know this information, so I'll make it public immediately.
I was hit with the lovers effect. I die the day after if Tric is eliminated. Note that it has to be through elimination for me to die. This is why I'd like Toonyman to daykill Tric, while we lynch EuchreJack.
Either Tric is doing the lovers'ing, in which case it looks like the ability is one-target, or EuchreJack is part of a scumteam and has a two-target ability.
In either case, Roden must have falsely reported a night result, unless someone interfered with a tracking action. At this point, I'm pretty sure Roden's scum. (I would actually consider us killing both me and Roden today, but I guess that might be taking a risk that their night result was due to a redirect or similar.)
That's all the information I have. I couldn't use my ability tonight because of the caveats FoU put on it.
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 09:40:05 am
This really doesn't make much sense to me.. But I don't know how to help here other than dying.
How about this, I poison Tric and we execute Roden today.
During N3 Jack will jailkeep Tric.
Tric will die at the end of D4 and this should be a loophole because it specifically says he needs to die by execution for the lovers effect to trigger so me and NJW should remain alive.
For D4 our actions depend on Roden's flip.
If Roden was town: We take a serious look at Met and Vector.
If Roden was mafia: We probably win when Tric dies.
How about this. We do what we were doing yesterday, execute Jack, Poison me. I die tomorrow, and we have 5 people left. With 2 mafia that isn't a loss. Of course, if Jack or I are Mafia, that's 1 to 4. As compared to killing two town players and us ending up at 2 to 3 with no way to win other than a guess. In the case both of us are town, NJW would have been the one lying. Or it's Vector.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 09:41:11 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 09:50:17 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 10:02:46 am
As for why Jack, it's the fact that that is the most likely way to find out who mafia is. Unless we can find another way, but last night NJW apparently didn't do anything? Wouldn't that mean he could have used it? He's also the one to bring up the fact it's Execution, not poisoning. We could get the exact same result lynching him, and keep Toony's Poison. If he is town, then it's either one of us or vector. And that is at least easy to deal with. Toony just seems to have changed his mind about me.
If you plan to just go ahead and do it, just do it. I don't know how we got here.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 10:09:28 am
By the way, convincing me to NOT poison you would be better for your wincon, regardless of your alignment.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 14, 2021, 11:02:06 am
How about this, I poison Tric and we execute Roden today.This seems to be predicated on a very hard townread of Jack. Do you consider the possibility that there are ninja matchmakers more likely than the possibility that EuchreJack is scum with a two-target lovers ability? Because if Roden flips mafia, Jack could very well have hit you and Tric with a two-target ability.
During N3 Jack will jailkeep Tric.
Tric will die at the end of D4 and this should be a loophole because it specifically says he needs to die by execution for the lovers effect to trigger so me and NJW should remain alive.
For D4 our actions depend on Roden's flip.
If Roden was town: We take a serious look at Met and Vector.
If Roden was mafia: We probably win when Tric dies.
Broadly speaking, though, I think I'm okay with this plan... something feels off about this whole affair. I suppose if the mafia have a toothless ability that is also ninja, and are among Met/Vec, at least scum wouldn't have too much pressure from killing two town.
Post by: Vector on October 14, 2021, 11:48:36 am
How about this, I poison Tric and we execute Roden today.
During N3 Jack will jailkeep Tric.
Tric will die at the end of D4 and this should be a loophole because it specifically says he needs to die by execution for the lovers effect to trigger so me and NJW should remain alive.
For D4 our actions depend on Roden's flip.
If Roden was town: We take a serious look at Met and Vector.
If Roden was mafia: We probably win when Tric dies.
I'm good with this plan. I'm having a little trouble keeping my head in the game due to the lack of deaths and everything else that's going on in my personal life, but defusing the lovers effect seems like it should be a really high priority.
I wonder if the deal is that scum gets to NK only once and otherwise has to lovers people? Or I guess simply has no NK, who knows.
Anyway, this plan seems like a good way to handle the situation to me.
Post by: Metruption on October 14, 2021, 03:57:30 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 04:12:54 pm
I wonder if the deal is that scum gets to NK only once and otherwise has to lovers people? Or I guess simply has no NK, who knows.
I was wondering about that as well. What if scum's NK was locked behind Tric's death? Hence, why I think it is vital that we lynch someone today, so that we can hopefully lynch successfully on D4, when Tric is schedule to expire.
I've sort of lost interest as this is just a melange of wack mechanics and whatever is going on in this setup is super bastard and my ability that I thought would pop off n2 is going to still be useless going into n3What ability is that exactly? You've been super vague about it, which is why I am scumreading you. Could you describe it in detail? Or name the ability, so I can at least look it up myself?
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 04:26:57 pm
TricMagic
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 04:27:07 pm
I've sort of lost interest as this is just a melange of wack mechanics and whatever is going on in this setup is super bastard and my ability that I thought would pop off n2 is going to still be useless going into n3Nobody expects the double tie into mafia never killing.
At least it's not a cult, that's the real bastard.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 04:27:23 pm
I mean, not like I can actually kill using an ability that only activates on execution. Or the fact my partner is never on. Literally the worst people to get it. And the fact it was used wrongly.
TricMagic
lololol
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 04:28:39 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 04:33:21 pm
Also, really should have saved my other ability for Vector. Instead I attempted to use it to secure my alibi on someone who had no night ability and was roleblocked. (Everything I've actually told you about what I did at night was true, other than me using Lovers at the same time as my redirect. Or I'm lying ;) )
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 05:04:40 pm
It's entirely your fault Day 1 was a tie, and I had a post where I was going to vote you a second or two before day ended for putting me in a situation where I needed to kill you or have a no lynch. I have absolutely no idea why you would play a game of chicken like that as mafia. If I gave into bloodlust and posted the vote you would have just straight up died.
Also I'm still submitting my poison shot on you. Eat deadly toxins for tricking me.
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 05:33:32 pm
Post by: Vector on October 14, 2021, 05:44:36 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 05:47:37 pm
Hey Tric can you describe exactly how the lover effect resolved on you, for N1 and N2?
By the way, convincing me to NOT poison you would be better for your wincon, regardless of your alignment.
More meant this, asking for what happened. However since I was the one to use it.
Also, I stepped up my confidence, but you did see rather early on. Really should have targeted you N1.
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 05:48:12 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 06:06:05 pm
Tric, I didn't use flavor to catch you at all. As someone mentioned, I've been on your butt the whole game due to your Day behavior. Toony even tried at one point to claim it was the same as last game and I was like, "LOL no."I wasn't sure but you're right. Tric still made some baffling decisions that mafia shouldn't do, but I guess it barely edged out in his favor because of that.
Anyway uh...Roden I guess? NJW and Jack are confirmed town at this point.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 06:09:46 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:14:29 pm
Is Vector at all suspected mafia?
If Roden is town, he can track Vector. Then Vector and Tric are both covered. But if Roden is mafia, that gives him another round of action.
Yet Met kept alive only gives mafia another round of action, if Met is mafia. If Met is town, game might be over before their supposed ability even triggers.
Also, Tric's scumbuddy can join his lynch currently and get Tric lynched. I'd be more comfortable if there were two votes on one suspect.
SO...Roden, if only to keep Tric from being lynched.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 06:15:48 pm
Roden said Tric did nothing last night, which means Roden is lying or some bullshit is going on. That's game.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 06:17:32 pm
WHERE NOBODY DIED
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:19:31 pm
Nah I'm dumb actually.
Roden said Tric did nothing last night, which means Roden is lying or some bullshit is going on. That's game.
I still believe that Tric's scumbuddy might be able to link things to Tric (we don't even know if Tric is telling the truth about the ability being both ways), but it looks like I need to bind my vote to yours as much as possible. Unless someone else wants to vote Met, we'll lynch Roden and if Roden is town we should lynch Met (or Vector, but probably Met) tomorrow.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:21:55 pm
Vector is 1000 IQ mafia if that's even possible, and Met is probably just town. So it's just Roden. Feel pretty dumb not seeing that D1 but I kept a reminder that they would always be mafia first before Jack.
And also, you weren't the only one scumreading Roden. NJW2000 has suspected Roden the entire game.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:25:19 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:26:41 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:29:52 pm
Spoiler: Roden's Ninja Rant (click to show/hide)
...I will admit Roden's ninja rant is suspicious. I mean, I could come up with better theories, most likely because I don't have the answer to the puzzle.
But to those in the informed minority...NINJAS
Post by: ToonyMan on October 14, 2021, 06:31:16 pm
Roden has to be lying about their N2 results on Tric, do you see that? It's quite incriminating.
Tric isn't some ninja either since NJW saw Tric on N1. So Roden should have seen Tric target NJW.
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 06:39:29 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:41:56 pm
But I've got no major problems voting Roden. If nothing else, it saves us from having this conversation tomorrow.
I did say I was being truthful about not doing anything. That Lovers on N2 surprised me as much as anyone. Our time zones just aren't synched up properly....and then mafia Tric tries to save Roden. Oooh, more Wine!
Post by: TricMagic on October 14, 2021, 06:43:58 pm
My issue, as I said before, is that if the scum team (tric and player x) had the ability: "Target player becomes lovers with Tric", then the scumbuddy could have bound NJW to Tric. Tric is probably lying about the ability going both ways.
But I've got no major problems voting Roden. If nothing else, it saves us from having this conversation tomorrow.I did say I was being truthful about not doing anything. That Lovers on N2 surprised me as much as anyone. Our time zones just aren't synched up properly....and then mafia Tric tries to save Roden. Oooh, more Wine!
:)
I'll even hammer him for you nd we can move on to the next day.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:46:34 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 06:49:12 pm
I did say I was being truthful about not doing anything. That Lovers on N2 surprised me as much as anyone. Our time zones just aren't synched up properly.
Hey Tric, I especially like that last part. Is that a hint, or even more Wine?
...I'll note that if Vector was the scumbuddy, the excuse would be "and my scumbuddy was busy and mostly unresponsive". No offense Vector.
From what I can tell, Tric is more-or-less in the same time zone as Roden, but different time zones than Met. Hm, mmm, enjoying the wine.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 14, 2021, 07:03:06 pm
Hm, I was thinking again about Tric's claimed ability, and it seemed odd that Tric would chose to Redirect Toonyman's actions onto me, since Toonyman had no claimed action role. Redirecting either my or Roden's ability would prove our roles, and redirecting me onto Roden (or visa versa) would make sense if we were the suspected scum team.Yeah it would make more sense wouldn't it? It's another illogical choice from Tric.
I think the main reason a mafia!Tric would have to make up the "I redirected Toony to Jack" claim is that NJW outed the fact that Tric targeted me on N1. NJW and Tric are at odds with each other.
Let's think about how a Tric/Roden mafia team would decide their target on N2:
Toony - they have already lover'd me
Tric - no reason to target self
Roden - no reason to target partner
Vector - immune for at least one cycle
Met - already kind of suspicious, could easily get lynched on D3
NJW - a good target, the least likely to get lynched between Met and Jack
Jack - a decent target, not as suspicious as Met but more likely to get lynched than NJW anyway
Mafia don't want to Lovers someone who is likely to get lynched. NJW was the least likely to be lynched between NJW/Jack/Met. This is why NJW was hit with Lovers last night.MetruptionI admit it's possible Tric is partners with Met, but Roden seems more likely to me. I will try to elaborate in the future.
Oh duh, it is Roden. I didn't get Lovers, NJW got Lovers, ergo it has to be Roden. Met as scum would totally have Lover'd me.
Throughout the entire game, it's been:
NJW2000 suspicious of Roden and Jack
Jack suspicious of Met
So for the end game, Roden would want me around and Met would want NJW2000 around. Sorry Roden, you're mafia.
Post by: Vector on October 15, 2021, 09:21:52 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 15, 2021, 09:25:02 am
GG. And I really need an actual Kill if I need to be Mafia, think Fal rebalanced things a bit too far in Town's favor here. Could have been fine if there was an experienced player in mafia, but not for us. (Why is it only execution?)
Note, Roden surrendered too.
Post by: webadict on October 15, 2021, 09:51:28 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 15, 2021, 10:00:05 am
What is this evenI've been thinking the same thing!
Post by: ToonyMan on October 15, 2021, 10:23:33 am
Except Tric. I still shot him with my poison dart.
GGs Tric and Roden
Post by: TricMagic on October 15, 2021, 10:47:02 am
Everyone lives happily ever after.Lets do the time warp again!
Except Tric. I still shot him with my poison dart.
GGs Tric and Roden
Post by: ToonyMan on October 15, 2021, 10:55:00 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 15, 2021, 11:06:24 am
Not a good play with the abilities I had on the table. To note, I was the one with Multitasking. Both it and Redirect were 1-shot.
As for why I targeted myself, it was to take advantage of that if anyone was watching, as I'd only visit one player. That and figured having Lover on me would be something I could reveal next day for towncred. We see how that went.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 15, 2021, 11:11:10 am
Post by: Roden on October 15, 2021, 01:15:00 pm
With hindsight of better understanding how the Lovers mechanic works and how to play it, I probably would have hammered NJW Day 1 and then linked Toony and Jack as Lovers while heavily attacking and distancing Tric.
What did Met and Vector have for PRs btw?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 15, 2021, 01:19:43 pm
A clock chimed.
"Yeah... guess you got us, huh? Come on, Roden, let's... cough Get this over with."
The mafia have forfeited.
Round 2 has ended! Town won, and as such, ToonyMan, NJW2000, Metruption, Vector, and EuchreJack all gain 1 Victory Point!
But the game's dark clutches would not release themselves - this was only the beginning of something more. A darker nightmare loomed as time began to wind back into itself...
New roles will be designed, then sent out tomorrow at midnight, at which point Round 3 will begin.
I'll go ahead and post the setup and actions. However, I'd just like to bring up that I think Metruption implicitly asked for a replacement when he said he 'lost interest'. Webadict, you up for that?
While I felt kinda bad about it during the game when Met said this was a 'bastard game' or whatnot, I didn't comment on it because I didn't want to interfere with how things would play out. Now that the game's over though, I'd like to get y'alls opinion on it. I don't think it's bastard - at least by the standards of this board - myself, but what do you all think?
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 15, 2021, 01:28:46 pm
I'll go ahead and post the setup and actions. However, I'd just like to bring up that I think Metruption implicitly asked for a replacement when he said he 'lost interest'. Webadict, you up for that?I'm available if he isn't, haha
Post by: TricMagic on October 15, 2021, 01:33:32 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 15, 2021, 01:43:22 pm
My main issue is of course the fact Lovers is so nerfed. Even both town and mafia dying would be better if kills also triggered the lovers effect. I am not really capable of pushing a false lynch since I look for scum indicators to build cases off of. And while there were some, we kind of played the ability wrong from the very start.Would it help if I told you that you misread your role, too? Only the multitasking was one-shot, you had unlimited redirects.
Quote from: Roles
ToonyMan:
1-Shot Day Poisoner (town):
(1-Shot, Day) Poison [target]: You shoot your target with a blowdart full of deadly frog venom, causing them to die at the end of the next Day (after the execution). They will be aware that they are poisoned, as well as their death condition.
EuchreJack:
3-Shot Jailkeeper (town):
(3-Shot, Night) Jailkeep [target]: You lock your target in their room this Night, protecting them from kills and preventing them from acting. They will be given a ‘you were roleblocked’ result if they attempted to act. You only have enough locksmith’s tools to do this three times, however.
Vector:
Limited Ascetic (town):
(Auto) Ascetic: Due to living in a state of constant meditation, you are immune to all non-kill actions. Any player that uses a non-kill action on you will receive an ‘action failed’ result. However, if a non-kill action is used on you, this Auto will be disabled during the next Cycle (Day and Night) as your meditation is shaken. You will not be aware of when this Auto is disabled/enabled.
Metruption:
Coroner (town):
(Night) Autopsy [target]: You visit a dead player in secret and use your forensics experience to learn the names of all abilities used on them for the Cycle (Day and Night) of their death.
NJW2000:
Secretive Watcher (town):
(Night) Watch [target]: You learn the names of all players who visited your target this Night by watching with your hidden camera.
(Auto) Secretive: Any ability you use fails if you are visited the phase you use it.
TricMagic:
1-Shot Multitasking Redirector (mafia):
(Night) Redirect [target1] [target2]: You use subliminal imagery and subconsciously-heard sonic tones to manipulate your first target into changing the target of their action (if any) to your second target. If they would visit multiple players, one of their targets is changed at random to be your second target. Furthermore, you cannot choose the same player to be both of your targets.
(1-Shot, Auto) Multitasking: Only once, you may choose to use a second action during the Night, as long as the second action is not the same as your first action.
Roden:
Odd Night Tracker (mafia):
(Night) Track [target]: You learn what players, if any, your target visits tonight by stalking them.
(Auto) Odd-Night: Due to fatigue, you can only use your Track action during odd-numbered Nights.
(Factional, Night) Matchmake [self/target1] [target2]: You use hypnotic flamingo pheromone perfume to brainwash two targets, causing them to gain the Lovers status permanently. If one of them is executed during the Day, the other will die at the end of the next Day, after the execution. (A player with the Lovers status will be aware of having it, who their joined partner is, and what the death condition is.) If a Mafia player is one of your targets, the execution of the other player in the partnership will not trigger the lethal effect of this status. This ability may be self-targeted.
Quote from: Actions
Night 1 attempted actions:
ToonyMan: None (no Night action)
NJW2000: Watch ToonyMan
EuchreJack: Jailkeep ToonyMan
Vector: None (passive)
Metruption: None (nobody’s dead)
TricMagic: Redirect ToonyMan to target EuchreJack / Multitasking: Matchmake ToonyMan and TricMagic
Roden: Track EuchreJack
Night 1 results:
ToonyMan gains the Lovers [TricMagic] status, and gains awareness of what it is.
NJW2000 learns that ToonyMan was visited by TricMagic and EuchreJack
EuchreJack jailkeeps Toonyman
Vector has an uneventful Night
Metruption has an uneventful Night
TricMagic redirects ToonyMan to EuchreJack (which does nothing) and gains the Lovers [ToonyMan] status.
Roden learns EuchreJack visited ToonyMan.
Night 2 attempted actions:
ToonyMan: None (no Night action)
NJW2000: Watch Metruption
EuchreJack: Jailkeep ToonyMan
Vector: None (passive)
Metruption: None (nobody’s dead)
TricMagic: None (choice)
Roden: Matchmake NJW2000 and TricMagic
Night 2 results:
ToonyMan has an uneventful Night
NJW2000’s action fails, and he gains the Lovers [TricMagic] status, along with awareness of what it is.
EuchreJack jailkeeps ToonyMan
Vector has an uneventful Night
Metruption has an uneventful Night
TricMagic gains the Lovers [NJW2000] status.
Roden matchmakes TricMagic and NJW2000.
Day 3 attempted actions:
ToonyMan: Poison TricMagic
Day 3 results:
TricMagic gains the status Poisoned
Post by: ToonyMan on October 15, 2021, 01:57:49 pm
Is this the loop where a mysterious 8th player shows up?I'll go ahead and post the setup and actions. However, I'd just like to bring up that I think Metruption implicitly asked for a replacement when he said he 'lost interest'. Webadict, you up for that?I'm available if he isn't, haha
As for the game itself I feel it was neat, but the lack of nightkills meant the mafia had to make eliminations happen during the day, which...didn't happen. I was tempted to fire my shot on D1 since I didn't want mafia to kill me before then, but it was never a real threat.
Also lololololol at Met's role. A coroner was not exactly useful in this round.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 15, 2021, 01:59:41 pm
...then again, I considered dumping the tournament prior to the end. But now that I know it's basically Tric & Roden madness that made it seem Bastard, I'm fine. :P
Post by: ToonyMan on October 15, 2021, 02:03:30 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 15, 2021, 02:03:45 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 15, 2021, 02:04:44 pm
I don't see why Web and MaximumSpin couldn't join as 8th and 9th players for the next round. The points don't really mean anything and there are no other games to join right now.
Yes, Web and MaximumSpin can join me, Tric, Roden, and Vector as tied for 2nd place! Great idea! Might even get me out of last place! Do this now! ;D ;D ;D
Post by: EuchreJack on October 15, 2021, 02:08:57 pm
Post by: webadict on October 15, 2021, 02:12:09 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 15, 2021, 02:26:00 pm
This wasn't bastard, I don't think.
While I felt kinda bad about it during the game when Met said this was a 'bastard game' or whatnot, I didn't comment on it because I didn't want to interfere with how things would play out. Now that the game's over though, I'd like to get y'alls opinion on it. I don't think it's bastard - at least by the standards of this board - myself, but what do you all think?
I mean, the experience was weird and confusing, but a lot of that was because the scum played a less than optimal line due to missing certain features of their ability. And town was headed for a clean sheet because of that, so that's just the result of a tradeoff between psychological security and mechanical advantage.
Possibly being a bit more explicit with the term 'execution' might help.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 15, 2021, 02:50:41 pm
I don't see why Web and MaximumSpin couldn't join as 8th and 9th players for the next round. The points don't really mean anything and there are no other games to join right now.Sure. Well, it'd be seventh and eighth if Met decides to drop out.
Would still work out, though - and give me just a bit more flexibility in setup design.
If they do join, I'll probably give them one Point each to make things more even, simulating participation in the first two Rounds.
Possibly being a bit more explicit with the term 'execution' might help.Noted.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 15, 2021, 02:58:12 pm
Post by: webadict on October 15, 2021, 02:59:51 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 15, 2021, 03:01:52 pm
So, what was the "more broken version"?
Mafia's factional ability was poisoning instead of matchmaking. Mafia got a 'Linking JOAT' that could both execute-Lovers people and poison-Lovers people.
Four people could die at the end of Day 2, all at once. I decided this wasn't exactly reasonable.
Points are for losers. I'll start with 0 like a professional.Noted.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 15, 2021, 03:06:55 pm
Also, linking town to town would have been another strategy. Not necessarily better, as linking everyone to Tric and then having Tric go Jester was a neat strategy as well.
Roden didn't hide enough, I think. Met and Vector (D1) weren't very active, and Roden should have aspired to that level of activity. With the strategy of Tric going jester and taking out several town players, the partner needed to survive to ELO on voting alone.
But, if mafia can't kill, and they are tied with town, do they still win? I'm thinking YES, but dunno for sure.
For balance, mafia should have been given at least a 1-shot kill. I was reasonably sure they were given that.
The key to binding town to town via this form of lovers is to identify which town players are mostly working together (in other words, the town players that are unlikely to lynch each other anyways). Otherwise mafia might be binding mortal enemies together to plot the doom of the mafia team!
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 15, 2021, 03:18:14 pm
Without some promise of protection, I just don't think town would be that easy to convince to lynch someone known to be in a lovers pair, especially in such a small game where two players is a high sacrifice.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 15, 2021, 08:27:34 pm
However, as town you are an aggressive voter, whereas in this game as mafia you were very hesitant to vote. Hope that helps!
Post by: ToonyMan on October 15, 2021, 09:06:05 pm
Post by: Roden on October 15, 2021, 10:16:29 pm
@Roden: Overall, your town and mafia games are similar, so good job on that!That's good to know actually. I likely could've gotten away with being more aggressive in general this game, so I'll keep it in mind going forward.
However, as town you are an aggressive voter, whereas in this game as mafia you were very hesitant to vote. Hope that helps!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 16, 2021, 05:14:27 pm
Post by: webadict on October 16, 2021, 06:41:17 pm
Yeah, I can play.I... Am already playing?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 17, 2021, 03:25:52 am
Always have been.Yeah, I can play.I... Am already playing?
Round 3 Begins!
The eight of you gather, one by one. It's a sorrowful thing, your meeting. An empty space is crammed too full of your woes and goals. The fridge and pantry are understocked, and the provided 'execution spot' is already bloodstained.
The most pristine thing in the room is a dark-wooded grandfather clock that just will not stop chiming, every hour. It marks the endless, unstoppable march of time. The inevitable progression towards your deaths.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (8): ToonyMan, Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, webadict, Maximum Spin
5 to hammer.
Day 1 has begun, and will end 1 AM Tuesday, Central time, or on a hammer. (This is around 48 hours from now, but you know that by now.)
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 07:51:17 am
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 08:08:14 am
Die? Probably N1.
I won't ask RVS questions like a chump.
It's Maximum Spin.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 08:45:02 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 10:39:34 am
Tric, what's your role this game?
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 10:57:40 am
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 11:35:41 am
Okay then.Awfully rude to ask someone else's before sharing your own.
Tric, what's your role this game?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 11:39:02 am
I'm not even in this episode, webadict, but that's pretty funny, I was all set to do the same thing and you stepped all over it. I guess I should probably vote someone else but I feel like this is funnier.Oh yeah, who are you? Who is Maximum Spin?
Not telling this game. No point to it. Why are you asking Toony?Because I want to know if you'll reveal it easily. The answer appears to be a no.
Sorry, I'm a cop. The way we handle this is in my procedures. Ask then tell.Okay then.Awfully rude to ask someone else's before sharing your own.
Tric, what's your role this game?
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2021, 11:41:09 am
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 11:55:58 am
Sorry, I'm a cop. The way we handle this is in my procedures. Ask then tell.Okay then.Awfully rude to ask someone else's before sharing your own.
Tric, what's your role this game?
... If you're a cop, what type of cop? Role Cop? Mafia Cop?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 12:00:55 pm
Gunsmith Cop, certain town roles will come back positive but otherwise I can catch scum.Sorry, I'm a cop. The way we handle this is in my procedures. Ask then tell.Okay then.Awfully rude to ask someone else's before sharing your own.
Tric, what's your role this game?
... If you're a cop, what type of cop? Role Cop? Mafia Cop?
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 12:02:18 pm
Any others want to claim? I'm Parity.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 12:03:25 pm
But, I'll wait until everyone posts at least once.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 12:08:48 pm
... Right, Toony is likely Town.Good to know. This means I will get a positive result on Tric if I investigate them. I think Tric is being honest here which means they're likely town.
Any others want to claim? I'm Parity.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 12:19:35 pm
Oh yeah, who are you? Who is Maximum Spin?I'm not even here!
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 12:55:50 pm
Maximum Spin is the one who's going to get lynched for this.Oh yeah, who are you? Who is Maximum Spin?I'm not even here!
Post by: NJW2000 on October 17, 2021, 12:59:46 pm
EuchreJack: has anyone in this game already told a lie?
Vector: if you found out you were vanilla town this round, would you be likely to play a gambit?
I have pertinent information that will likely get me killed if I reveal it but puts me at a disadvantage regardless, since revealing it is also helpful in narrowing down potential suspects, and, like, I'm gonna get killed tonight anyway, LOL.Is insisting you'll die N1 the bay12 meta or something?
But, I'll wait until everyone posts at least once.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 01:18:45 pm
Everything is meta if you make it meta.I have pertinent information that will likely get me killed if I reveal it but puts me at a disadvantage regardless, since revealing it is also helpful in narrowing down potential suspects, and, like, I'm gonna get killed tonight anyway, LOL.Is insisting you'll die N1 the bay12 meta or something?
But, I'll wait until everyone posts at least once.
Oh, is that what we're doing? Then I will claim to have no gun at all. I'm clean! But that doesn't matter because you won't believe me regardless, and I'd probably claim either way as Mafia, so it's up to you to believe my outlandish claims.... Right, Toony is likely Town.Good to know. This means I will get a positive result on Tric if I investigate them. I think Tric is being honest here which means they're likely town.
Any others want to claim? I'm Parity.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 01:25:51 pm
Euchrejack, what color is my tie?Don't fall for it, Euchre, Vector's not wearing a tie at all!
Also, why not ask ME the questions, Vectorio? Is it because I can read you like a book?!
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 01:35:04 pm
Roden: given there's a load of D1 copclaims, should town lynch today?Absolutely, less people to check tonight if we remove one.
If we're mass claiming, then I'll state now that I have a unique role. I can't choose my target at night, only my Captain can. I don't think they should claim today though, I want to see who they force me to target tonight.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 01:38:36 pm
Oho, you too?Roden: given there's a load of D1 copclaims, should town lynch today?Absolutely, less people to check tonight if we remove one.
If we're mass claiming, then I'll state now that I have a unique role. I can't choose my target at night, only my Captain can. I don't think they should claim today though, I want to see who they force me to target tonight.
Well, that makes me a little less apprehensive to claim now.
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 01:46:44 pm
... So, Roden and Webadict can be considered liabilities. With Max likely to be the one pulling their strings. Great...Oho, you too?Roden: given there's a load of D1 copclaims, should town lynch today?Absolutely, less people to check tonight if we remove one.
If we're mass claiming, then I'll state now that I have a unique role. I can't choose my target at night, only my Captain can. I don't think they should claim today though, I want to see who they force me to target tonight.
Well, that makes me a little less apprehensive to claim now.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 01:51:40 pm
But who would ever make that assumption...?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 01:53:38 pm
Good to know. And you're right, I'll be checking you tonight. So you'll have to kill me if you're lying.Good to know. This means I will get a positive result on Tric if I investigate them. I think Tric is being honest here which means they're likely town.Oh, is that what we're doing? Then I will claim to have no gun at all. I'm clean! But that doesn't matter because you won't believe me regardless, and I'd probably claim either way as Mafia, so it's up to you to believe my outlandish claims.
... So, Roden and Webadict can be considered liabilities. With Max likely to be the one pulling their strings. Great...Why Max? I could see Web fucking around as the captain here.
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 01:55:12 pm
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 02:04:56 pm
Ok, let's verify. What happens if your Captain dies?Oho, you too?Roden: given there's a load of D1 copclaims, should town lynch today?Absolutely, less people to check tonight if we remove one.
If we're mass claiming, then I'll state now that I have a unique role. I can't choose my target at night, only my Captain can. I don't think they should claim today though, I want to see who they force me to target tonight.
Well, that makes me a little less apprehensive to claim now.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 02:14:40 pm
The beauty of it all is that I actually don't have to kill you if I'm lying, because you won't investigate me at all. Even when I write this, I would bet that you wouldn't waste your inspection on me. Partially because I don't believe you're actually a Gunsmith, but also partially because I think you think I'm not lying.Good to know. And you're right, I'll be checking you tonight. So you'll have to kill me if you're lying.Good to know. This means I will get a positive result on Tric if I investigate them. I think Tric is being honest here which means they're likely town.Oh, is that what we're doing? Then I will claim to have no gun at all. I'm clean! But that doesn't matter because you won't believe me regardless, and I'd probably claim either way as Mafia, so it's up to you to believe my outlandish claims.... So, Roden and Webadict can be considered liabilities. With Max likely to be the one pulling their strings. Great...Why Max? I could see Web fucking around as the captain here.
Also true, if I were the Captain, I'd be the greatest Captain of all time. But, instead, I'm a *deep breath* Combined Activated Cop Enabler Doctor (Or, CACED, for short.) When I perform my Doctoring, I also enable Cop inspects. Which is why I'm fairly certain I'll be killed tonight, and also why I'm willing to bet at least one of the Cop claims is legit.
We'll now be able to determine if the Captain is, in fact, Mafia.
Hmm... Let's see... The optimal move here is to not answer that, because verifying this is trivially easy and accomplishes nothing to do so, especially because I think you're a weak player and not willing to reveal the information yourself. I'd also like to not answer that because I want people to think I'm fakeclaiming, because I am. I might just be lying so that the Mafia Captain is unsure of who is what role.Ok, let's verify. What happens if your Captain dies?Oho, you too?Roden: given there's a load of D1 copclaims, should town lynch today?Absolutely, less people to check tonight if we remove one.
If we're mass claiming, then I'll state now that I have a unique role. I can't choose my target at night, only my Captain can. I don't think they should claim today though, I want to see who they force me to target tonight.
Well, that makes me a little less apprehensive to claim now.
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 02:18:51 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 02:19:28 pm
Nin. And yeah, Webadict.
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 02:24:51 pm
webadictWow that got screwed up.
I was going to say that I can easily verify if you're telling the truth. You can say I'm a weak player but I caught you in D6 before you subbed out, and I called out both scum in the first round one after the other. If you want to underestimate me then I'm more than with not being fear killed tonight.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 02:28:21 pm
So, Tric is probably Town because he's obviously stupid. Roden might be Town, but he'll be an absolute drag on the Town if he is, which is unfortunate. Vector is probably Mafia. ToonyMan is... Maybe Town. It wouldn't matter if he's Mafia because he won't be dying tonight regardless. Waiting on EuchreJack, but if Vector is Mafia like I think they are, then it's not EJ based on the Gambler's Fallacy, which would, in fact, leave it as either NJW2000 or Maximum Spin as the last Mafia. NJW2000 is not out of meta, so I'd be willing to leave them as neutral, and thus, it's Maximum Spin and Vector.
Being right and being weak are not mutually exclusive. You should consider reading comprehension if you think I'm pointing out your ability to find scum as weak.webadictWow that got screwed up.
I was going to say that I can easily verify if you're telling the truth. You can say I'm a weak player but I caught you in D6 before you subbed out, and I called out both scum in the first round one after the other. If you want to underestimate me then I'm more than with not being fear killed tonight.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 02:38:12 pm
Fuck the police!
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 02:38:38 pm
No.
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 02:42:13 pm
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 02:46:52 pm
My issue here is that you can't even control your own actions, and if your captain dies, you likely do as well. And your role is way too idiotic given we can use our investigation just fine. I find it more likely you'd disable us, not enable.So, you believe I'm under control of the Captain, but
The fact you claim and then not bother to answer Roden's question doesn't help your claim.You don't believe my claim, but
Also, we do not need enabling unless Mafia is cheating the results.You do believe my claim.
You're so detrimental to your team that you don't even realize how detrimental to your team you are.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 02:50:01 pm
With Max likely to be the one pulling their strings. Great...Haha, what? You are so nutbags. How can I be a captain when I am not even in this episode?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 02:53:35 pm
Agh, you got me. I know town!Web would be killed on N1 so my investigate would become useless. This means checking you is pointless!The beauty of it all is that I actually don't have to kill you if I'm lying, because you won't investigate me at all. Even when I write this, I would bet that you wouldn't waste your inspection on me. Partially because I don't believe you're actually a Gunsmith, but also partially because I think you think I'm not lying.Good to know. And you're right, I'll be checking you tonight. So you'll have to kill me if you're lying.Good to know. This means I will get a positive result on Tric if I investigate them. I think Tric is being honest here which means they're likely town.Oh, is that what we're doing? Then I will claim to have no gun at all. I'm clean! But that doesn't matter because you won't believe me regardless, and I'd probably claim either way as Mafia, so it's up to you to believe my outlandish claims.
Also true, if I were the Captain, I'd be the greatest Captain of all time. But, instead, I'm a *deep breath* Combined Activated Cop Enabler Doctor (Or, CACED, for short.) When I perform my Doctoring, I also enable Cop inspects. Which is why I'm fairly certain I'll be killed tonight, and also why I'm willing to bet at least one of the Cop claims is legit.What.
We'll now be able to determine if the Captain is, in fact, Mafia.
Fuck the police!*baton whack*
My issue here is that you can't even control your own actions, and if your captain dies, you likely do as well. And your role is way too idiotic given we can use our investigation just fine. I find it more likely you'd disable us, not enable.Tric is right. There's no mention in my role that it needs to be enabled.
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 02:55:23 pm
.... Also, that series of quotes, quite mean of you. The third is a true statement which is in direct contrast to your claim... Haa... At this point you're playing with me, which means little is gained other than... Point being, please don't play these games web, I'm not in the mood for them and am fully willing to lynch you over them.
Nin. (And one thing you are right about. I'm a horrible Mafia.)
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 02:56:43 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 03:03:45 pm
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 03:10:34 pm
Is he scum though? Because I'm a Jailer. Two gated invests is one thing, but two gated protective roles sounds really off.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 03:19:23 pm
You can say that, but the fact you are playing these games in the first place leads me to disbelief. Put simply, you claim to be controlled by a captain. You yourself say you could be lying. And you won't provide the proof Roden has. In case A where you are controlled, you're lying/truthtelling. There is no difference, simply chaos. In case b where you aren't, you are intentionally lying to not have to claim anything about your actual role, be that captain, cop, or mafia. Note that the three are not exclusive.If I ever stopped playing games, why would I be playing Mafia?
.... Also, that series of quotes, quite mean of you. The third is a true statement which is in direct contrast to your claim... Haa... At this point you're playing with me, which means little is gained other than... Point being, please don't play these games web, I'm not in the mood for them and am fully willing to lynch you over them.
I've seen set ups where Enabler modifiers for town roles were on scum teams and vice versa. I actually believe both Cop roles are town here because of that, and that Web is an Enabler.I am not scum. I'm choosing not to divulge the captain's authority because I want to look like I'm lying, and I don't necessarily want the Captain to know my role. Also, if the Captain is Town, they should know my role and can debunk me accurately.
Is he scum though? Because I'm a Jailer. Two gated invests is one thing, but two gated protective roles sounds really off.
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 03:25:49 pm
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 03:34:31 pm
Should our Captains claim then? Because they could very well be the same person.If they're Town, I'd rather they didn't.
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 03:37:18 pm
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 03:42:42 pm
Agh, you got me. I know town!Web would be killed on N1 so my investigate would become useless. This means checking you is pointless!Actually, if you were going to check me, which you're not, you'd likely just lie and say I have a gun, and then I'd call your obvious bluff, and then you'd admit who you actually inspected.
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 03:53:59 pm
My theory on this game is that Mafia has an active captain who orders the town roles around. A Jailkeeper prevents kills, but also stops cops from doing anything. Web is just outright lying about their role, and I'll check them tonight. Which will likely get me roleblocked, but eh. If I'm alive day 2 I can at least confirm their allegiances.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 03:57:58 pm
My theory on this game is that Mafia has an active captain who orders the town roles around. A Jailkeeper prevents kills, but also stops cops from doing anything. Web is just outright lying about their role, and I'll check them tonight. Which will likely get me roleblocked, but eh. If I'm alive day 2 I can at least confirm their allegiances.Waste of an inspect. Wouldn't recommend it, but you're going to anyway, which is incredibly silly.
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 04:04:08 pm
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 04:09:49 pm
Yeah no. I'm Parity. 8) I don't know why you are saying not to, do you have something to hide? Am I going to die N1?On the contrary, I'm trying to bait the kill, and if I succeed, I will be dead.
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 04:15:38 pm
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 04:23:24 pm
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 04:27:08 pm
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 04:37:41 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 04:52:07 pm
I agree completely with webadict which means he's probably mafia, so vote stands.Laaaazy voooote. Got a better reason?
I think Web is correct about this.Should our Captains claim then? Because they could very well be the same person.If they're Town, I'd rather they didn't.
Oh ok, so just a normal cop. I think Tric should just target someone else then.No. Web is dumb. Parity cops get some arbitrary result when they inspect someone which they can piece together to determine alignments. For example town might be a "1" and mafia might be a "2". Or it could be the other way around, we have no way to know until it's confirmed.
For example, let's say Tric inspects Web and gets a "1" and then Web is killed tonight and flips town. That means Tric knows "1" is a town result and has now basically become a full alignment cop.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 04:59:57 pm
I understand why it now makes sense for Tric to inspect me.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 05:03:41 pm
There are downsides with both of our inspections, however we should be able to narrow down suspects with our results combined.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 05:19:33 pm
Anyway, should we be focusing Maximum Spin or Vector?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 05:22:12 pm
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 07:39:01 pm
I'm fine with focusing on Vector first, I have a bit more experience with them. But we could always just do both.
I hope Jack posts soon, I want to hear his thoughts.
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 07:41:11 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 07:46:49 pm
@Vector and Max: Do you have active or passive roles? Are you willing to full claim?I thought I already did. I mean, I wasn't subtle about it.
I'm not willing to be more direct at this moment. But there isn't a whole lot more direct to be.
Post by: TricMagic on October 17, 2021, 07:52:27 pm
That comes off more jokingly than serious MS. And we lynched someone who claimed Commuter first round. That's not a good strategy for a cop to have. Unless of course only one mafia can get caught via the cops, the captain.@Vector and Max: Do you have active or passive roles? Are you willing to full claim?I thought I already did. I mean, I wasn't subtle about it.
I'm not willing to be more direct at this moment. But there isn't a whole lot more direct to be.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 17, 2021, 07:59:09 pm
Where is Jack?I imagine even EuchreJack may sometimes go twelve hours without posting to bay12.
Anyway, should we be focusing Maximum Spin or Vector?Who is "we" here?
On the contrary, I'm trying to bait the kill, and if I succeed, I will be dead.I get that the meme shit and insulting people might just be how you play RVS, but if you've come around to "my claim was lying actually aha", what were your last nineteen posts meant to accomplish for town?
Yeah no. I'm Parity. 8) I don't know why you are saying not to, do you have something to hide? Am I going to die N1?Parity cop takes a minimum of two nights to return a useable result. You'd barely be a kill priority N2, let alone N1. Also, why would you claim it this early?
I can't choose my target at night, only my Captain can. I don't think they should claim today though, I want to see who they force me to target tonight.Does the captaincy thing work roughly like this (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Captain)?
If so, rather than be completely passive, have you considered publically stating a handful of targets you'd be willing to jail, and refusing to action people outside of that?
Jailor is an important role. I don't particularly like the idea of a claimed jailor getting to hide behind a captaincy restriction, or a potentially scum captain mucking about with the town's jailor.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 17, 2021, 08:29:51 pm
Where is Jack?I imagine even EuchreJack may sometimes go twelve hours without posting to bay12.
Indeed.
Some info on my role: I don't have a gun (flavor counted for something I guess), I am town, and I am the one most likely to die N1. My ability is fatal to me if I successfully use it.
Hence, I'm actually not very interested, since this D1 is wild and confusing, and I won't be alive D2 if I do my job right.
Somebody is lying about their protective role, as I am a Bodyguard. But then again, I have no idea what this Captain BS is about, so maybe I'm the only one that doesn't have to answer to anyone to use my ability.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 08:36:25 pm
Some info on my role: I don't have a gun (flavor counted for something I guess), I am town, and I am the one most likely to die N1. My ability is fatal to me if I successfully use it.... are you Kurt Cobain?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 17, 2021, 08:40:24 pm
I hope Jack posts soon, I want to hear his thoughts.
Roden, do you get to use your ability freely if your Captain dies?
No. Stop with the cryptic bull, or I'll vote you. Speak plainly or not at all.Some info on my role: I don't have a gun (flavor counted for something I guess), I am town, and I am the one most likely to die N1. My ability is fatal to me if I successfully use it.... are you Kurt Cobain?
Webadict, buddying me and telling us you'll be dead N1 so we don't vote you today. Roll mafia yet again?
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 08:43:20 pm
No. Stop with the cryptic bull, or I'll vote you.I think you might just not get the reference. Kurt Cobain sang the lyrics, "I don't have a gun", and then shot himself. I mean, not immediately. That was a bit later.
So like anything else I've said, that wasn't cryptic at all.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 17, 2021, 08:46:34 pm
No. Stop with the cryptic bull, or I'll vote you.I think you might just not get the reference. Kurt Cobain sang the lyrics, "I don't have a gun", and then shot himself. I mean, not immediately. That was a bit later.
So like anything else I've said, that wasn't cryptic at all.
LOL, fair enough. I assume you're also claiming Commuter or something. The "or something" is why I'm getting pissy.
Oh, and Vote Webadict. Not enough voting, if you ask me.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 08:53:33 pm
"We" is Toony and I, clearly.Anyway, should we be focusing Maximum Spin or Vector?Who is "we" here?On the contrary, I'm trying to bait the kill, and if I succeed, I will be dead.I get that the meme shit and insulting people might just be how you play RVS, but if you've come around to "my claim was lying actually aha", what were your last nineteen posts meant to accomplish for town?
I mean, is it really "meme shit and insulting people"? I don't think I posted any memes. And I technically only insulted two people, but only after being told I was wrong about something I was so clearly right about, unless this pertains to my very existence, in which case, yes, I am quite insulting to the underclass.
I believe you missed the part where I have determined the mafia team 7 posts ago, and I've yet to see you jump aboard the bandwagon I've so kindly tethered together for you. Please, remove your shoes before you enter the carriage, and the butler will see you to your seat. Unless, of course, you have any real complaints about my picks, in which case, that's open season. Is my logical deduction wrong and you're saying that you, yes, you, dear reader, are the actual scum?!? Well, that's fair to say.
Webadict, buddying me and telling us you'll be dead N1 so we don't vote you today. Roll mafia yet again?Nope. I rolled... Wait, hold on, Town isn't spelled with an M!
If I wanted to buddy you, I'd be doing better, but you would be too, so FoS me all you want. Instead, I'm doing meme shit and insulting people until the job is done, so I can coast to victory.
Quite rude, if you ask me. Haters are always in the process of hating.No. Stop with the cryptic bull, or I'll vote you.I think you might just not get the reference. Kurt Cobain sang the lyrics, "I don't have a gun", and then shot himself. I mean, not immediately. That was a bit later.
So like anything else I've said, that wasn't cryptic at all.
LOL, fair enough. I assume you're also claiming Commuter or something. The "or something" is why I'm getting pissy.
Oh, and Vote Webadict. Not enough voting, if you ask me.
Is this the part where I start actually trying, or should I just wait until it's socially acceptable to vote myself like you in a desperate attempt at... I don't know if that sentence has an ending. Anyway, I'll still adamantly point at Vector and Maximum Spin as top suspects, but I suppose it's easier to just defenestrate the emperor, and then find the actual bad guys when you know he's on your side.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 17, 2021, 08:53:58 pm
We are in our 3rd game.
Round 1 mafia were: EuchreJack and Vector
Round 2 mafia were: Tricmagic and Roden
Town for both games were: Toonyman, NJW2000, and Met
New players are: Maximum Spin and Webadict.
Between Toonyman and NJW2000, one of them is "due" to be mafia, so I'd suggest they deserve "extra scrutiny". They're probably paired with someone else, as it would be unfair to put them both on the scum team, to be outed by Math Alone.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 08:57:32 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 17, 2021, 08:59:25 pm
Is this the part where I start actually trying, or should I just wait until it's socially acceptable to vote myself like you in a desperate attempt at... I don't know if that sentence has an ending.
Always nice to meet a fan.
What about Vector and Maximum Spin has drawn your animosity? Vector's actually posting MORE than usual, and Maximum Spin...eh.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 09:00:46 pm
Vector's actually posting MORE than usualI have to admit I would actually consider that suspicious.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 09:01:03 pm
Pure statistics time!Technically, since Max and I took over for Met, we'd be that slot's roll on the scum die.
We are in our 3rd game.
Round 1 mafia were: EuchreJack and Vector
Round 2 mafia were: Tricmagic and Roden
Town for both games were: Toonyman, NJW2000, and Met
New players are: Maximum Spin and Webadict.
Between Toonyman and NJW2000, one of them is "due" to be mafia, so I'd suggest they deserve "extra scrutiny". They're probably paired with someone else, as it would be unfair to put them both on the scum team, to be outed by Math Alone.
I thought someone told me webadict was supposed to be good at this?We execute our liars here. Except me. We don't execute me.
Maximum Spin based entirely on the premise that I think they're trying to coast by keeping their vote on me and simultaneously I don't want to have to unvote and vote someone else because I'm lazy. Vector because they didn't ask me a question, and sempai notice me.Is this the part where I start actually trying, or should I just wait until it's socially acceptable to vote myself like you in a desperate attempt at... I don't know if that sentence has an ending.
Always nice to meet a fan.
What about Vector and Maximum Spin has drawn your animosity? Vector's actually posting MORE than usual, and Maximum Spin...eh.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 09:03:29 pm
Maximum Spin based entirely on the premise that I think they're trying to coast by keeping their vote on me and simultaneously I don't want to have to unvote and vote someone else because I'm lazy.I know you did that on purpose, so I'm just going to laugh.
Post by: webadict on October 17, 2021, 09:04:24 pm
I do everything on purpose except win. That's by accident.Maximum Spin based entirely on the premise that I think they're trying to coast by keeping their vote on me and simultaneously I don't want to have to unvote and vote someone else because I'm lazy.I know you did that on purpose, so I'm just going to laugh.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 17, 2021, 09:17:06 pm
Roden: given there's a load of D1 copclaims, should town lynch today?@NJW2000: What is the point with these questions?
EuchreJack: has anyone in this game already told a lie?
Vector: if you found out you were vanilla town this round, would you be likely to play a gambit?I have pertinent information that will likely get me killed if I reveal it but puts me at a disadvantage regardless, since revealing it is also helpful in narrowing down potential suspects, and, like, I'm gonna get killed tonight anyway, LOL.Is insisting you'll die N1 the bay12 meta or something?
But, I'll wait until everyone posts at least once.
Post by: Roden on October 17, 2021, 10:20:11 pm
That sounds about right for my role. I should clarify that I'm not Compulsive, so going by the wiki I should have a choice about whether or not I go through with it.I can't choose my target at night, only my Captain can. I don't think they should claim today though, I want to see who they force me to target tonight.Does the captaincy thing work roughly like this (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Captain)?
If so, rather than be completely passive, have you considered publically stating a handful of targets you'd be willing to jail, and refusing to action people outside of that?
Jailor is an important role. I don't particularly like the idea of a claimed jailor getting to hide behind a captaincy restriction, or a potentially scum captain mucking about with the town's jailor.
I plan to Jail Web and only Web. If the Captain ever chooses anyone else, that is a confirmed scum claim and we should always vote them out if they ever try to make me target otherwise. As it is, Web and I are likely priority targets tonight, and Jailing either Cop would be detrimental.
I had an idea about having the Captain also having the Doc randomly target one of the Cops, which forces scum to spin the wheel and hope they don't pick a protected target, but going by the wiki the Captain apparently knows which roles they can command. So the Captain already knows Web's real role, and if they're scum then Web's role claim gambit won't do anything.
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2021, 11:13:29 pm
1. I have an active role. I'd prefer not to full-claim, but my role also references the captain. I am not the captain.
2. I'm town ':V
3. Webadict
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 11:22:03 pm
What is with this behavior? You didn't react to me here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321510#msg8321510) and you're being evasive with everyone in general.@Vector and Max: Do you have active or passive roles? Are you willing to full claim?I thought I already did. I mean, I wasn't subtle about it.
I'm not willing to be more direct at this moment. But there isn't a whole lot more direct to be.
Where does this playful confidence stem from?
@NJW:
I apologize, that was more towards Webadict only wanting to focus on Vector and Maximum Spin, but made no mention of Jack who hadn't posted yet. It seemed weird to me that he would omit Jack without even having a read.Where is Jack?I imagine even EuchreJack may sometimes go twelve hours without posting to bay12.
@Jack:
Somebody is lying about their protective role, as I am a Bodyguard. But then again, I have no idea what this Captain BS is about, so maybe I'm the only one that doesn't have to answer to anyone to use my ability.I agree. I think there's one, and likely only one, mafia inside Roden/Web/Jack.
Pure statistics time!This reasoning is bad. Do you agree?
We are in our 3rd game.
Round 1 mafia were: EuchreJack and Vector
Round 2 mafia were: Tricmagic and Roden
Town for both games were: Toonyman, NJW2000, and Met
New players are: Maximum Spin and Webadict.
Between Toonyman and NJW2000, one of them is "due" to be mafia, so I'd suggest they deserve "extra scrutiny". They're probably paired with someone else, as it would be unfair to put them both on the scum team, to be outed by Math Alone.
@Webadict:
wordsWow you're being cocky as shit. I can't tell if this is deliberate or not to look town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2021, 11:26:40 pm
What is with this behavior? You didn't react to me here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321510#msg8321510) and you're being evasive with everyone in general.I only answer questions I find interesting! What was I even supposed to say to that? I put my vote wherever I think it does the most good, that's all. That said, I don't think I'm being evasive, I just have a certain conversational style.
Quote
Where does this playful confidence stem from?We haven't interacted too much, have we? This is just me.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 17, 2021, 11:51:30 pm
What is with this behavior? You didn't react to me here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321510#msg8321510) and you're being evasive with everyone in general.I only answer questions I find interesting! What was I even supposed to say to that? I put my vote wherever I think it does the most good, that's all. That said, I don't think I'm being evasive, I just have a certain conversational style.QuoteWhere does this playful confidence stem from?We haven't interacted too much, have we? This is just me.
How do I agree with your votes and cases if I don't understand them?
I agree completely with webadict which means he's probably mafia, so vote stands.
What does that mean? What do you agree with? Why does that make them probably mafia?
For example, I feel like Web is getting too much heat today. I've been rereading the thread and looking at the votes in this round so far. Why would mafia!Web act like he has been, putting a bullseye on himself and being voted by over half the players (Maximum Spin, Roden, Tric, Jack, Vector)? If Roden didn't switch their vote to Vector then Web would have been hammered with Vector's vote. He's at L-1 right now! In Supernatural 10 mafia!Webadict didn't get more than two votes on himself throughout the entire game I believe. In addition, how would their partner react to this? It doesn't seem believable to me. This is a logical conclusion I have drawn and because I expressed my thoughts it allows others to see them.
Maximum Spin
Reads
I think Tric and Roden are town, again like R1
Web is maybe town or is playing horrible mafia
Don't know about NJW or Vector currently
Jack is suspicious to me
Maximum Spin is suspicious
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 18, 2021, 12:03:06 am
How do I agree with your votes and cases if I don't understand them?It's d1, I don't even have a case! Honestly, I prefer d1-no-lynch because there's no real data until someone gets killed, but that doesn't play well here, so I settle for lynching somebody for no better reason than to have data and watch the rope sway.
Quote
What does that mean? What do you agree with? Why does that make them probably mafia?Man I don't even remember, do you always read this much into things? Okay, checking back, what I was agreeing with was that TM was going off into crazyland, which is known town TM behaviour. I didn't say that outright because I didn't want to be insulting. That probably making weber mafia was just meant as a jokey way to say that I wasn't moving my vote just yet, with the implication that anyone who seems reasonable in this game is probably mafia. In reality, it didn't have any effect on my vote, but I felt I should convey that I wasn't just leaving my vote in place out of sheer inattention.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 04:11:49 am
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 04:14:38 am
@Jack:Somebody is lying about their protective role, as I am a Bodyguard. But then again, I have no idea what this Captain BS is about, so maybe I'm the only one that doesn't have to answer to anyone to use my ability.I agree. I think there's one, and likely only one, mafia inside Roden/Web/Jack.Pure statistics time!This reasoning is bad. Do you agree?
We are in our 3rd game.
Round 1 mafia were: EuchreJack and Vector
Round 2 mafia were: Tricmagic and Roden
Town for both games were: Toonyman, NJW2000, and Met
New players are: Maximum Spin and Webadict.
Between Toonyman and NJW2000, one of them is "due" to be mafia, so I'd suggest they deserve "extra scrutiny". They're probably paired with someone else, as it would be unfair to put them both on the scum team, to be outed by Math Alone.
I'll admit, it is a dangerous line of reasoning, as random means random, and it can lead to us clearing players we shouldn't be clearing. But...it'll be your turn sometime Toonyman. You're not going to get through the entire tournament without rolling mafia.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 04:19:34 am
Jack is suspicious to me
Promise to feel a bit bad when I die N1 protecting you, alright?
Seriously, not sure its even worthwhile this round. I'm going to die protecting you N1 (I have to, you're the claimed Cop), then watch the remainder of the game from the sidelines. We don't even have a dead chat for me and the other dead to spectate!
Post by: webadict on October 18, 2021, 04:24:35 am
@ToonyPerson: If I die, I die! I am cocky because I have the leniency of still winning if I die. Also, I am not entirely sure if I could accurately fake this, but I could try. Mostly, I'm not gonna be angry if I get voted out for this. I will just be upset that the path of least resistance for some of these people is voting me because they don't believe in my divine gifts and benevolence. I am wayward Cassandra, o woe is me! Oh, and before I forget, I left Euchre out because they hadn't posted by that point and I had already determined it was Vector instead of EuchreJack.
@Wector: Yoooo, you're not doing yourself any favors with one word answers. If you're Mafia, you can totally let me know, and I won't tell anyone! I promise. Heck, I won't even vote you! (Shhhh! Nobody tell them!)
@YoukerJack: Sigh.
Now that that's out of the way, if you would like to vote me or Minimum Spin out, please let me post again before you do because I got that work thing tomorrow. Until then, I will shoft my vote to... No Launch
Jackie with the ninja.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 04:25:20 am
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 04:41:24 am
That sounds about right for my role. I should clarify that I'm not Compulsive, so going by the wiki I should have a choice about whether or not I go through with it.I can't choose my target at night, only my Captain can. I don't think they should claim today though, I want to see who they force me to target tonight.Does the captaincy thing work roughly like this (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Captain)?
If so, rather than be completely passive, have you considered publically stating a handful of targets you'd be willing to jail, and refusing to action people outside of that?
Jailor is an important role. I don't particularly like the idea of a claimed jailor getting to hide behind a captaincy restriction, or a potentially scum captain mucking about with the town's jailor.
I plan to Jail Web and only Web. If the Captain ever chooses anyone else, that is a confirmed scum claim and we should always vote them out if they ever try to make me target otherwise. As it is, Web and I are likely priority targets tonight, and Jailing either Cop would be detrimental.
I had an idea about having the Captain also having the Doc randomly target one of the Cops, which forces scum to spin the wheel and hope they don't pick a protected target, but going by the wiki the Captain apparently knows which roles they can command. So the Captain already knows Web's real role, and if they're scum then Web's role claim gambit won't do anything.
Jailkeeping Web is always a good play in any game of mafia.
From what the wiki said, the Captain knows the roles, not the people.
I'm flattered that you're stealing ideas from my last game regarding randomizing protects. But it only works if the Doctor or the Captain declare.
Hm, but you've given me an idea for body-guarding, maybe I can make the same play and protect both Toonyman and Tric?
Alright: 50/50 place your bets scumbuckets! I'll flip the coin, Head Toonyman, Tails Tric. One gets bodyguarded.
Since Tric becomes a Real Cop upon inspecting me and my death, this is a good play I think.
Post by: TricMagic on October 18, 2021, 08:41:46 am
I'm of the opinion that the push on web was led by Mafia right now. Otherwise a hammer could have been all too easy. Especially if it was Vector. So a Vector/Max team today.
Post by: Vector on October 18, 2021, 12:49:21 pm
I think I'd like to see more from MaximumSpin and NJW. I agree with that vibe.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 18, 2021, 01:26:24 pm
We still found the mafia in Round 2, but I found it significantly harder.How do I agree with your votes and cases if I don't understand them?It's d1, I don't even have a case! Honestly, I prefer d1-no-lynch because there's no real data until someone gets killed, but that doesn't play well here, so I settle for lynching somebody for no better reason than to have data and watch the rope sway.
Yes. It's important.QuoteWhat does that mean? What do you agree with? Why does that make them probably mafia?Man I don't even remember, do you always read this much into things?
Okay, checking back, what I was agreeing with was that TM was going off into crazyland, which is known town TM behaviour. I didn't say that outright because I didn't want to be insulting. That probably making weber mafia was just meant as a jokey way to say that I wasn't moving my vote just yet, with the implication that anyone who seems reasonable in this game is probably mafia. In reality, it didn't have any effect on my vote, but I felt I should convey that I wasn't just leaving my vote in place out of sheer inattention.Got it. Web thinks Tric is town and you stuck a vote on Web as a joke, although I don't think Web has been reasonable at all this round so far.
@Jack:
Hehehe, town would be in trouble if true.This reasoning is bad. Do you agree?I'll admit, it is a dangerous line of reasoning, as random means random, and it can lead to us clearing players we shouldn't be clearing. But...it'll be your turn sometime Toonyman. You're not going to get through the entire tournament without rolling mafia.
I will admit I feel a bias towards NJW being mafia, but I won't let this sway my reasoning.
I'll believe that if you die. Bodyguard is pretty easy to fake and I do think there's too many protection roles like you said.Jack is suspicious to mePromise to feel a bit bad when I die N1 protecting you, alright?
Seriously, not sure its even worthwhile this round. I'm going to die protecting you N1 (I have to, you're the claimed Cop), then watch the remainder of the game from the sidelines. We don't even have a dead chat for me and the other dead to spectate!
Although to be fair Web feels like they're lying out of their ass which mucks things up, but whatever.
@Webadict:
please kill meIs name calling really necessary, Netfanatic? You think you're so good you can prophesize the mafia team without doing any work?
Post by: TricMagic on October 18, 2021, 01:27:33 pm
Nin.
Post by: TricMagic on October 18, 2021, 01:28:58 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 18, 2021, 01:36:21 pm
---Starting discussion. Why, didn't want to answer yours?
@NJW2000: What is the point with these questions?
A bit suspicious that NJW2000 hasn't voted yet. They usually throw one out by now...I can't tell if you're genuinely trying to make me feel under pressure, but put that in red if you actually want to do that.
Spoiler: readslist (click to show/hide)
Also, pretty sure someone is lying about the captain thing.
TricMagic, for reasons stated in readslist.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 01:50:40 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 18, 2021, 02:00:23 pm
Wait, getting stuff mixed up.. Roden claimed he has a captain and is a Jailkeeper. Jack being a Bodyguard, along with two known towncops. And another captain-led in Web.(Apparently.) ...That's 5 out of 8 roles known if we take us all to be town. As well as the Captain being Mafia.
Still means Max's Commuter claim(6 roles now, though he wasn't exactly concise, just joking.) is suspicious. Might be a compulsive commutter to add suspicion, could just be un-targetable mafia.
Also, Town should always lynch in this scenario. So long as it isn't one of the COP CLAIMS! Or the bodyguard/jailer claims. Or the captain-power claims. So just one of you three. Pick one.
Post by: Vector on October 18, 2021, 02:10:57 pm
Sorry for the crappy posting y'all. I want to get some substantial posts out today but I'm not feeling, shall we say, very well.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 02:21:39 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 18, 2021, 02:23:14 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 02:27:02 pm
A reminder, claimed parity cop. NJW, what is this nonsense? As well as town-reading Roden for claiming bodyguard early on. That's not a bad claim to have..
Wait, getting stuff mixed up.. Roden claimed he has a captain and is a Jailkeeper. Jack being a Bodyguard, along with two known towncops. And another captain-led in Web.(Apparently.) ...That's 5 out of 8 roles known if we take us all to be town. As well as the Captain being Mafia.
Still means Max's Commuter claim(6 roles now, though he wasn't exactly concise, just joking.) is suspicious. Might be a compulsive commutter to add suspicion, could just be un-targetable mafia.
Also, Town should always lynch in this scenario. So long as it isn't one of the COP CLAIMS! Or the bodyguard/jailer claims. Or the captain-power claims. So just one of you three. Pick one.
I was going to suspect TricMagic for this post due to the intentionally stated confusion regarding Roden & I (why do we always get linked together?!), but then I found a whole new level of confusion. Welcome to Town, Tric.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 02:32:53 pm
You should probably protect Toony Jack, I'm not that valuable to the endgame. So proved last round, if not the first. (The chances of me dying N1 seem slim. I don't remember the last time it happened. I'm just too lynchable.)
I'm of the opinion that the push on web was led by Mafia right now. Otherwise a hammer could have been all too easy. Especially if it was Vector. So a Vector/Max team today.
Eh, you won at least one endgame for town without Toonyman (Roguelike mafia), and you're a Parity Cop, which means after you inspect me, and I flip town upon death, you graduate Police Academy and become a Real Cop. So you're actually more useful than Toonyman on N2. Roden should know by their N2 orders and the N2 kill whether their captain is town or mafia, so the survival of both you and Toonyman till N2 is critical.
Post by: webadict on October 18, 2021, 02:40:01 pm
No objection to the 24 hour extension requested by Vector.Not off work yet but also agree.
Post by: Roden on October 18, 2021, 02:44:34 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 02:47:12 pm
Also, we should consider with 8 players that the mafia team might be more than 2 mafia. Maybe not 3 full mafia, but probably a 3rd player that can win with mafia somehow. We won't know until it is over.
Post by: Roden on October 18, 2021, 02:57:47 pm
Post by: Roden on October 18, 2021, 03:02:00 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 18, 2021, 03:27:51 pm
Hey, I was there for the endgame of Roguelike 6.You should probably protect Toony Jack, I'm not that valuable to the endgame. So proved last round, if not the first. (The chances of me dying N1 seem slim. I don't remember the last time it happened. I'm just too lynchable.)Eh, you won at least one endgame for town without Toonyman (Roguelike mafia), and you're a Parity Cop, which means after you inspect me, and I flip town upon death, you graduate Police Academy and become a Real Cop. So you're actually more useful than Toonyman on N2. Roden should know by their N2 orders and the N2 kill whether their captain is town or mafia, so the survival of both you and Toonyman till N2 is critical.
I'm of the opinion that the push on web was led by Mafia right now. Otherwise a hammer could have been all too easy. Especially if it was Vector. So a Vector/Max team today.
If we have a Town Vigilante who can only kill if given orders by a Captain, I would humbly suggest Not Killing, as knowing our devious GM FallacyofUrist, pulling that string by a Mafia Captain might be the mafia's only NK.There's no way it's 3 mafia. Even two mafia plus ally seems like too much.
Also, we should consider with 8 players that the mafia team might be more than 2 mafia. Maybe not 3 full mafia, but probably a 3rd player that can win with mafia somehow. We won't know until it is over.
I'm going to be away for most of tomorrow so if we extend the day by 24 hours I'm not going to be very available until probably only a few hours before the deadline.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 18, 2021, 03:31:38 pm
and you stuck a vote on Web as a jokeNo, no, I stuck a vote on Web because I wanted to vote for him. Then I made a joke about it. These are different things.
Max seems to be someone who likes people to read them carefully, see Kurt Cobain reference somewhere above.I don't think reading into things and reading something carefully mean the same thing. The Kurt Cobain reference is absolutely a good example of this: while it did need to be read carefully, it also was not meant, and nobody seems to have taken it, as a signal of any deeper meaning or reasoning than a quick throwaway joke. Also, I am only one person.
@Max: What are your thoughts on the Captain situation? Do you believe Web is going to die tonight?I have no opinion on the second question. I don't generally go around believing things. Regarding the captain: I'm not convinced that there is one. If there is one, either the two, uh, becaptained individuals are probably mafia, or the captain is, or both. If there isn't one, then they definitely are. Frankly, it could easily be a claim intended to generate suspicion, like it clearly did with TM, who instantly concluded that I must be the captain for... some... reason.
Hi, I'd like to ask for an extension of 24 hours due to RL. Check my post history if you need deets.Extending would really suck for me but it's whatever. Although I couldn't find anything that looked like a reason. It's not like there really needs to be a reason anyway, but you did say there was a reason, so if you want people to know the reason could you elaborate?
Sorry for the crappy posting y'all. I want to get some substantial posts out today but I'm not feeling, shall we say, very well.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 18, 2021, 03:34:03 pm
NJW2000, because townreading Roden is outside of your meta. Plus, following your advice. :PDo you believe NJW is unnaturally townreading Roden after playing 3 rounds in a row with them?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 04:07:41 pm
Yes. I actually thought most of NJW's reads were nonsense, but the townreading of Roden was unnatural, whereas the remainder seemed more typical NJW.NJW2000, because townreading Roden is outside of your meta. Plus, following your advice. :PDo you believe NJW is unnaturally townreading Roden after playing 3 rounds in a row with them?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 18, 2021, 04:09:55 pm
NJW2000, because townreading Roden is outside of your meta. Plus, following your advice. :PGood. Now that there's pressure, use it by asking a question.
A reminder, claimed parity cop. NJW, what is this nonsense?It looks like an OMGUS bandwagon vote.
Oh, OK, you were referring to my post. Well, you claimed a highly useful cop role that requires town to not lynch you and spend a great deal of resources keeping you alive at night. If you're town, this was just bad play, making yourself an obvious target for mafia as well as letting them know they have at least two nights to deal with the threat. Makes much more sense as mafia, as it gives you a claim you don't even have to give town info from for two days, as well as drawing town protection powers.
Also your contributions thus far have been "mafia must be on this bandwagon because they didn't hammer" and scumhunting the most obvious players. And then voting me for... voting you. So yeah, I think you're mafia.
And if you think I'm going to lynch within a particular three group of players just because you want me to... no :P
Extension's fine by me.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 04:11:47 pm
---Starting discussion. Why, didn't want to answer yours?
@NJW2000: What is the point with these questions?A bit suspicious that NJW2000 hasn't voted yet. They usually throw one out by now...I can't tell if you're genuinely trying to make me feel under pressure, but put that in red if you actually want to do that.
UNspoiler=readslist
EuchreJack: has claimed bodyguard, a bit hyper, steady engagement, using the gambler's fallacy... with EJ all signs point toTown.
Roden: active, claimed their role and its restrictions promptly which mafia might not want to do, lean town
Claimed controlled by captain, but NJW didn't think this worth repeating?!-EJ
Webadict: a load of random toss, but shying away from any real explicit claims in favour of "ah but I could be lying to draw the lynch". If they're scum, they can't be on particularly good terms with their scumbuddy, but hey. Null read.
Toonyman: strong engagement with the game. I don't know their scum game but imagine it's pretty powerful from their performance this tournament, so all this indicates is null.
Vector: only two posts with content, doesn't respond to questions, random votes, standard Vector D1. Throwing three votes in three posts feels a bit odd. Weak lean scum
MaximumSpin: Apparently doesn't think you really find scum D1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321606#msg8321606), actions reflect that belief. Asking if Toony reads into things a lot is a bit dubious, because a) we're playing mafia and b) Max seems to be someone who likes people to read them carefully, see Kurt Cobain reference somewhere above. Lean scum.
TricMagic: claimed parity cop D1, going after easy targets of Web and Max, claimed parity cop D1, claimsthinks mafia might do a no-warning hammer D1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321686#msg8321686), did I mention that they claimed parity cop D1? Even for Tric's early-claim meta, that claim cannot be townie. Scum
Also, pretty sure someone is lying about the captain thing.
TricMagic, for reasons stated in readslist.
Perhaps this showcases the inconsistencies. I unspoilered the Reads List of NJW, underlined the contradiction, and threw in a comment.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 18, 2021, 04:14:37 pm
NJW2000, because townreading Roden is outside of your meta. Plus, following your advice. :PGood. Now that there's pressure, use it by asking a question.
Ah, I'm gonna miss that condescending tone when you're lynched. Too bad we don't have a dead chat to continue our discussions. Eh, its a luxury.
Question: Why townread Roden even though Roden is "one of the two" discussing being under a Captain's thumb?
Post by: TricMagic on October 18, 2021, 04:59:23 pm
Also, if you were paying attention NJW, I did that because I figured two cops with with our abilities makes sense to work together. We can't just nail Mafia to the wall like a normal cop, we are a bit slower. And sense Toony claimed first, I figure he's town. And if I'm town, that also Toony is town to you guys. Funny how you didn't even bother to make that connection, my death means toony is town, ergo one doesn't need to use protection for me, they can protect him instead. Cause the moment I'm nightkilled Toony is cleared. And if he says someone does or doesn't have a gun, that's enough to believe him.
Post by: webadict on October 18, 2021, 05:15:21 pm
OK, so Tric is town and Web is a dumbass, what's new ... Unvote.A dumbass townie.
I think I'd like to see more from MaximumSpin and NJW. I agree with that vibe.
Although to be fair Web feels like they're lying out of their ass which mucks things up, but whatever.I lie about a lot of things because I'm actually sending secret messages to the captain.
@Webadict:... Yes? Is that not believable?please kill meIs name calling really necessary, Netfanatic? You think you're so good you can prophesize the mafia team without doing any work?
Okay, you got me. It's possible that one of the two I said is incorrect, and if I had to guess it's probably Vector, but that's also why I figured I'd ignore Vector mostly because pushing them is no good. We can always vote to launch Vector if they don't participate or with more info. Also, the fact that they claimed a captain ability makes me more hesitant.
TricMagic: claimed parity cop D1, going after easy targets of Web and Max, claimed parity cop D1, claimsthinks mafia might do a no-warning hammer D1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321686#msg8321686), did I mention that they claimed parity cop D1? Even for Tric's early-claim meta, that claim cannot be townie. ScumPick again. It's not Tric.
TricMagic, for reasons stated in readslist.
Webadict: a load of random toss, but shying away from any real explicit claims in favour of "ah but I could be lying to draw the lynch". If they're scum, they can't be on particularly good terms with their scumbuddy, but hey. Null read.It's pretty easy to do whatever you want when you're not constrained by things like alignment or scumbuddies. I'm free as Town.
Post by: Vector on October 18, 2021, 05:25:21 pm
Extending would really suck for me but it's whatever. Although I couldn't find anything that looked like a reason. It's not like there really needs to be a reason anyway, but you did say there was a reason, so if you want people to know the reason could you elaborate?
I have PTSD diagnosed by a psychiatrist who spent 17 years working with the military. Last night and this morning I had an event. I'm in physical pain from clenched muscles and not able to pull together thoughts yet in the way that I usually do, and I need some time to settle my nerves and figure out what exactly I missed.
I don't really *want* people to know the reason per se, it's pretty embarrassing to have a disability like this. But it's common knowledge on some level in the subforum, so there you are.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 18, 2021, 05:33:03 pm
I don't really *want* people to know the reason per se, it's pretty embarrassing to have a disability like this. But it's common knowledge on some level in the subforum, so there you are.Well, you certainly didn't have to explain, I wasn't about to push. But I do appreciate being told, thank you.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 18, 2021, 09:03:49 pm
I also agree with the extension.
*cracks knuckles* (https://youtu.be/50MRHjfjLQs)
@Jack:
I think their read of Roden is accurate and surprisingly unstubborn of NJW. I'm not sure if a mafia!NJW would try to stand out like that.Yes. I actually thought most of NJW's reads were nonsense, but the townreading of Roden was unnatural, whereas the remainder seemed more typical NJW.NJW2000, because townreading Roden is outside of your meta. Plus, following your advice. :PDo you believe NJW is unnaturally townreading Roden after playing 3 rounds in a row with them?
I think NJW's read of Tric is ass, which does not appear to be an uncommon opinion either. Town!Tric would absolutely claim Parity Cop immediately. To add to that, I agree with Tric's suspicion of Maximum Spin and also that the Web wagon likely has mafia on it. I think it's possible NJW is mafia, but it's not a first pick at all.
@NJW:
stuffYou're a logical person, yes? There is no good reason to lynch one of our cops on D1. If Tric is telling the truth we have a good, mechanical source of info. Even if Tric is bullshitting we'll be able to figure it out down the line. There's even two cop claims so we'll likely draw the fire from mafia and it should make it bleedingly obvious whether this captain player is working with town or not too.
@Tric:
Likewise, one of the first things he says after that, he's not the captain.Tric.
Also, if you were paying attention NJW, I did that because I figured two cops with with our abilities makes sense to work together. We can't just nail Mafia to the wall like a normal cop, we are a bit slower. And sense Toony claimed first, I figure he's town. And if I'm town, that also Toony is town to you guys. Funny how you didn't even bother to make that connection, my death means toony is town, ergo one doesn't need to use protection for me, they can protect him instead. Cause the moment I'm nightkilled Toony is cleared. And if he says someone does or doesn't have a gun, that's enough to believe him.
The trust is appreciated, however do not make hard claims like this. If you're killed and flip town that doesn't clear me. If I'm killed and flip town that doesn't clear you. I also don't see why you think I would be a target over yourself, as your ability is mechanically way more solid once you have at least two results. Although I suppose we've at least applied pressure on the mafia to kill us first.
@Webadict:
...Sure, got it.Although to be fair Web feels like they're lying out of their ass which mucks things up, but whatever.I lie about a lot of things because I'm actually sending secret messages to the captain.
Reads
I think Jack is eager to kill NJW and Maximum Spin is eager to kill Webadict, both for questionable reasons.
Therefore I see NJW and Web in a better light than my last reads, besides getting a better feel from Web after rereading.
Vector is still an unknown, but even if they're mafia I don't feel comfortable pursuing that today and it's not like we still can't hit mafia.
Town
Tric
Roden
Townlean
Web
NJW
Null
Vector
Scum
Jack
Maximum Spin
Post by: TricMagic on October 18, 2021, 09:23:32 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 19, 2021, 12:11:12 am
Guess what
I'm sick. Body doing a bit too shitty to manage things like 'processing day end'. Let's say I'll end the Day on Thursday, because I'm fairly likely to be better by then. Wish me luck in recovering. Peace.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 02:50:41 am
I also don't think you're a Gunsmith, though, but that okay. It's a good deflection, and I like it. In any case, I'll call you Town, and continue on my way.
@Vector: When you're feeling up to it, would you mind giving us a list of reads? I especially would like your take on Euchre, because I feel like you would read him better than most.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 06:10:02 am
You've done nothing but spin your wheels today.I don't RVS.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 07:15:35 am
And yet, you're still voting for me, so those wheels keep on spinning.You've done nothing but spin your wheels today.I don't RVS.
I actually voted Skip so that you'd have a reasonable excuse to do so. Why won't you take that road?
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 07:20:22 am
I actually voted Skip so that you'd have a reasonable excuse to do so. Why won't you take that road?Because I consider keeping my vote on you the best source of information in the near term.
Post by: TricMagic on October 19, 2021, 07:53:03 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 08:21:22 am
And what information have you gotten out of it? I don't buy it. (Or webadict saying I'm cleared if Toony dies, that sounds like a bad setup to a punchline.)I've gotten a lot of information in the form of weights on a directed graph. "If X flips Y, then A is more likely to be B". For an insignificant example that shouldn't disrupt the graph too much, if you are mafia, Vector is more likely to be mafia.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 08:53:37 am
If Tric is Mafia, we're all fucked, so that doesn't particularly help.And what information have you gotten out of it? I don't buy it. (Or webadict saying I'm cleared if Toony dies, that sounds like a bad setup to a punchline.)I've gotten a lot of information in the form of weights on a directed graph. "If X flips Y, then A is more likely to be B". For an insignificant example that shouldn't disrupt the graph too much, if you are mafia, Vector is more likely to be mafia.
If you want, you can provide that info, but I don't see how continuing to vote me provided you that info, so if you'd like to explain that, then, please, be my guest.
You are allowed to admit you're wrong, too. That is always a viable choice.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 08:58:08 am
I don't see how continuing to vote me provided you that info, so if you'd like to explain that, then, please, be my guest.You misunderstand. I chose an example that does not relate to you to illustrate the concept.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 19, 2021, 09:10:10 am
How many votes are on you again?
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 09:18:00 am
Hey Maximum Spin, we have this thing called Reads Lists that let everyone see your awesome graphs of player alignment, you could even skip ahead to the connections thingy we do Day 2. Might even select players and ask "hey which of these is most likely scum".doooooooooon't care
How many votes are on you again?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 19, 2021, 09:22:39 am
@Jack:I think their read of Roden is accurate and surprisingly unstubborn of NJW. I'm not sure if a mafia!NJW would try to stand out like that.Yes. I actually thought most of NJW's reads were nonsense, but the townreading of Roden was unnatural, whereas the remainder seemed more typical NJW.NJW2000, because townreading Roden is outside of your meta. Plus, following your advice. :PDo you believe NJW is unnaturally townreading Roden after playing 3 rounds in a row with them?
I think NJW's read of Tric is ass, which does not appear to be an uncommon opinion either. Town!Tric would absolutely claim Parity Cop immediately. To add to that, I agree with Tric's suspicion of Maximum Spin and also that the Web wagon likely has mafia on it. I think it's possible NJW is mafia, but it's not a first pick at all.
Hm, NJW's poor read of Tric is quite similar to NJW's usually poor read of Roden, in that NJW is essentially scumreading Tric for his claim in the same way that NJW usually scumreads Roden for their claim. Essentially, NJW has switched targets. This is actually quite useful to know!
Post by: EuchreJack on October 19, 2021, 09:23:18 am
Hey Maximum Spin, we have this thing called Reads Lists that let everyone see your awesome graphs of player alignment, you could even skip ahead to the connections thingy we do Day 2. Might even select players and ask "hey which of these is most likely scum".doooooooooon't care
How many votes are on you again?
It would be impolite to hammer just after a rather long extension was granted.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 19, 2021, 09:41:40 am
Based on my role and what people have been claiming I believe there is a town false-positive and a mafia false-negative for my inspect. I think Tric is my town false-positive since he claimed so readily and willingly.
There are downsides with both of our inspections, however we should be able to narrow down suspects with our results combined.
Hm, I find this suspicious. Feels like too much information. I'm starting to wonder if Toonyman might be mafia claiming gunsmith cop to justify knowing town from mafia.
Just something to think about later on, after I'm dead.
Post by: TricMagic on October 19, 2021, 09:53:03 am
His claim came before mine here, so no. Please go ahead and protect him, cause if he ends up dead, I'm blaming you Jack.Based on my role and what people have been claiming I believe there is a town false-positive and a mafia false-negative for my inspect. I think Tric is my town false-positive since he claimed so readily and willingly.
There are downsides with both of our inspections, however we should be able to narrow down suspects with our results combined.
Hm, I find this suspicious. Feels like too much information. I'm starting to wonder if Toonyman might be mafia claiming gunsmith cop to justify knowing town from mafia.
Just something to think about later on, after I'm dead.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 10:14:13 am
That is not a good attitude here. Seriously, you should absolutely be finding a case or sharing info, OR show how what you're doing is useful.Hey Maximum Spin, we have this thing called Reads Lists that let everyone see your awesome graphs of player alignment, you could even skip ahead to the connections thingy we do Day 2. Might even select players and ask "hey which of these is most likely scum".doooooooooon't care
How many votes are on you again?
Post by: Roden on October 19, 2021, 01:43:57 pm
We've seen in past games that the scum team will get town-sounding roles to help them blend in. If Toony is scum, I think a mafia Gunsmith would exist to find a hidden Vig. But that's just post flip game spec, just something to keep in mind for now.Based on my role and what people have been claiming I believe there is a town false-positive and a mafia false-negative for my inspect. I think Tric is my town false-positive since he claimed so readily and willingly.
There are downsides with both of our inspections, however we should be able to narrow down suspects with our results combined.
Hm, I find this suspicious. Feels like too much information. I'm starting to wonder if Toonyman might be mafia claiming gunsmith cop to justify knowing town from mafia.
Just something to think about later on, after I'm dead.
I don't know the vote count and don't want to accidentally hammer, so everyone should consider my vote to spiritually be on Max. They're purposely choosing not to be helpful, and I'm not really sure what their game plan is supposed to be if they're town.
Post by: TricMagic on October 19, 2021, 01:46:18 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 19, 2021, 01:55:04 pm
You really don't get how my gambit works. I say that I'm going to protect either you or Toonyman, using a RNG to choose. Thus, you are both protected, since mafia has to risk 50% of not getting their kill in order to hit either of you. Mafia can of course take those odds, if they wish, but its a sub-optimal play. It would be better for them to eliminate me so I can't do the same thing tomorrow. Or pick off someone else that they read as uber-town.His claim came before mine here, so no. Please go ahead and protect him, cause if he ends up dead, I'm blaming you Jack.Based on my role and what people have been claiming I believe there is a town false-positive and a mafia false-negative for my inspect. I think Tric is my town false-positive since he claimed so readily and willingly.
There are downsides with both of our inspections, however we should be able to narrow down suspects with our results combined.
Hm, I find this suspicious. Feels like too much information. I'm starting to wonder if Toonyman might be mafia claiming gunsmith cop to justify knowing town from mafia.
Just something to think about later on, after I'm dead.
Ok Tric? Play some Ace Attorney and get your confidence back already!
Post by: EuchreJack on October 19, 2021, 01:58:07 pm
Need to know if you're just Newbie Townie or impersonating a Jester.
Everyone else: Could Maximum Spin be too scummy to be scum?
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 03:35:48 pm
I don't know the vote count and don't want to accidentally hammer, so everyone should consider my vote to spiritually be on Max. They're purposely choosing not to be helpful, and I'm not really sure what their game plan is supposed to be if they're town.I'm only one person, and I am definitely trying to be helpful, moreso than at least two or three names here. But I'm not going to play stupid games to win stupid prizes, and I'm not going to change my vote if I think my vote is in the right place just because of "pressure".
@Maximum Spin: How many games of mafia have you played? On this forum?In order, bunches, like 4 I think not including running one, I am not a jester or trying to pretend to be one.
Need to know if you're just Newbie Townie or impersonating a Jester.
Look, I know the "meta" here is "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". But I don't roll like that and I'm not going to fake it. Anyone who seriously thinks that makes me look more likely to be mafia is dumb enough to deserve to lose.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 03:56:50 pm
Why should anyone unvote you? Seriously, you are digging yourself further into suspicious territory by your actions and words not lining up. You are exerting no pressure on me, so it's not a pressure vote. You aren't asking me any questions, so it's not exploratory. You are either obtaining no useful information, or you are obtaining useful information and aren't sharing it (a stupid game). You have contributed nothing of consequence so far.
You are currently suspected by every player. What game do you think you are playing, if it isn't a stupid game? What prize are you winning, if it isn't a stupid prize?
Bowing to pressure isn't a bad thing. Sticking to your laurels isn't a bad thing. But you have no reason to stick to your actions because you have no justifications for them. Do you not understand that? If you are Town, DO SOMETHING. Otherwise, you will be executed.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 03:59:22 pm
You are exerting no pressure on me, so it's not a pressure vote. You aren't asking me any questions, so it's not exploratory.Let me make this clear. I literally do not believe in either of those things. "Pressure" isn't real, and asking dumbass questions is "playing stupid games". I am not playing any kind of game, I am voting for the person I want lynched. I want you lynched because then I will have information. That is all.
Post by: TricMagic on October 19, 2021, 04:01:24 pm
'Then I will have information. That is all.' Quite the statement to make when you should be picking up info from interactions between people and keeping it in your head for future days. Not looking at things, or sharing, can mess you up something fierce. Just ask Toony about last game. If no-one dies, where will your information be then?You are exerting no pressure on me, so it's not a pressure vote. You aren't asking me any questions, so it's not exploratory.Let me make this clear. I literally do not believe in either of those things. "Pressure" isn't real, and asking dumbass questions is "playing stupid games". I am not playing any kind of game, I am voting for the person I want lynched. I want you lynched because then I will have information. That is all.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 04:11:03 pm
You almost have an explanation. Now you need a deeper explanation into why. Do you think I'm suspicious? Do you think I'm unreadable? Do you have a reason to want me dead? What information will be obtained? What information do you have now? Do you have a way to entice other people to your cause?You are exerting no pressure on me, so it's not a pressure vote. You aren't asking me any questions, so it's not exploratory.Let me make this clear. I literally do not believe in either of those things. "Pressure" isn't real, and asking dumbass questions is "playing stupid games". I am not playing any kind of game, I am voting for the person I want lynched. I want you lynched because then I will have information. That is all.
Because you are participating in RVS, regardless of what you're saying. You pretend like pressure isn't real, but if you actually believed that and what you are saying, you wouldn't be answering my questions. Honestly, regardless of what you choose to do, I am winning here. If you answer my questions, you prove I was right the whole time, and if you don't, you still prove I was right.
Maybe you think I am cruel or overbearing, but I am doing you a service here. I am giving you a chance to fix your mistakes, and to step up and take control from me. That's how you win and get me executed. You need to show why it is the right move.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 04:26:55 pm
You pretend like pressure isn't real, but if you actually believed that and what you are saying, you wouldn't be answering my questions.I'm not answering your questions because of "pressure", I'm answering them because I have nothing better to do right now and I don't like seeing people be stupid.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 04:38:31 pm
I think we should start looking at secondary candidates. I think we should also wait for Toony to post before eliminating Max. I will unvote, and prepare to hammer. So, I think EuchreJack and NJW2000 are potentially good suspects to look into, since I can't exactly grill Vector.
Post by: TricMagic on October 19, 2021, 04:50:35 pm
Post by: Roden on October 19, 2021, 05:01:01 pm
It's more so because you don't even want to share your reads. Even if you don't want to write out a list, I don't really see a progression with your posts where I could pin point what you think of everyone else. At most, we know you suspect Web, and it's implied you think Vector and I are also scummy since you don't believe the Captain info. But not all three of us can be scum, so I ultimately don't know what you actually think of anyone besides Web.I don't know the vote count and don't want to accidentally hammer, so everyone should consider my vote to spiritually be on Max. They're purposely choosing not to be helpful, and I'm not really sure what their game plan is supposed to be if they're town.I'm only one person, and I am definitely trying to be helpful, moreso than at least two or three names here. But I'm not going to play stupid games to win stupid prizes, and I'm not going to change my vote if I think my vote is in the right place just because of "pressure".
Post by: Roden on October 19, 2021, 05:08:44 pm
Why Jack specifically? As one of the protector roles.. I agree with NJW being a good person to pressure, though keeping my vote on Max.I don't actually disagree about looking more into Jack. I thought the statistics post he made earlier was kinda sketchy, and I'm not confident that he's playing into his usual town meta. I understand that he feels half-hearted about this game since his only role is to die, so I don't scum read him for his tone. But if we can figure out his alignment today, it'll make your Parity check on him tonight a lot easier to understand.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 05:13:45 pm
If you lynch me, and I flip town (which I will), will you be any closer to figuring out who is mafia? Will you have gained anything, or just move on to your next best suspects?
What I want to do is lynch the person whose flip will most narrow down the suspects, regardless of what it is. I have been clear on this many times in the past.
I understand that your poorly-thought-out reaction results from never having read any of the games I was in before. I thought you had even been in some of them, but maybe I'm misremembering. So, I'd assumed originally that you were more informed than you clearly are. Therefore, even though you are being obnoxious and don't deserve help, I am going to explain.
There are three key sources of certain information in the game: death flips, investigative results, and choices of action targets, especially from mafia actions. Until we have one of those things, reads are meaningless. It's just a bunch of uncollapsed wavefunctions. For example, Tric is either town OR mafia with an experienced partner OR [...]. (There are weights on all the ORs, but that's not relevant to the point.) Until some of those wavefunctions collapse, I don't want to even try to explain them, for a few reasons, the most important of which is that they change when observed.
Being asked a bunch of dumbass questions completely kills my interest in participating, because not only do I not have answers, my brain does not even work that way. You might as well ask me whether green. "Do [I] think [you're] suspicious", I think everyone's suspicious, not even just in the game.
Oh good, I am cut off by a post that's actually useful and interesting.
It's more so because you don't even want to share your reads. Even if you don't want to write out a list, I don't really see a progression with your posts where I could pin point what you think of everyone else. At most, we know you suspect Web, and it's implied you think Vector and I are also scummy since you don't believe the Captain info. But not all three of us can be scum, so I ultimately don't know what you actually think of anyone besides Web.That's because I don't think of everyone else. What I mean is I don't have a list of reads, that doesn't exist, I just have this big web of connections, and I don't want to share them yet. You are wrong to think I suspect Web, you, or Victor. You are also wrong to think I specifically "don't believe the Captain info" - I am neutral on it.
Ultimately that is the big difference in how I play this game and also, honestly, 95% of life. I am neutral on things until I have information. So no, you're right, I can't contribute a hell of a lot d1. D1 is this annoying dead zone for me that I just want to get through as quickly as possible without doing too much damage. The last place I played we had a consistent d1 no-lynch rule put in place by a good friend whose brain works basically the same as mine. That was great, but I'm under no illusions that it will happen here, so I try to parse who will split the web best. I'm not even trying to "catch scum" d1, honestly, I just want to split the web so I know where scum are. I don't believe in trying to mind-read people, that's rookie shit.
And also, just, basically, don't try to read into what I say. I am really a very direct person. If I suspect somebody I will say "I suspect [x] of being mafia", not hint at it. My policy is radical honesty.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 19, 2021, 06:31:54 pm
Question: Why townread Roden even though Roden is "one of the two" discussing being under a Captain's thumb?I have no idea who you're quoting when you say ' "one of the two" ', but I'll assume the marks got in there by accident or it's scare quotes or something. I townread Roden because... he's been reasonably active pushing discussion forward, I wouldn't expect scum to immediately claim a jailor role and the captaincy thing because that information is likely useful to town in many ways and has a high chance of catching out Scum if they claim or fakeclaim it. So what I said, basically. Maybe that's not really answering your question, in which case rephrase it and I'll try again.
Everyone else: Could Maximum Spin be too scummy to be scum?No, because that's not possible. I'm not saying he's lockscum, but nobody is ever too scummy to be scum, that's WIFOM at best.
Aaaand it looks like people are engaging with Max on his theories about mafia and how it impacts his play. That's going to be a productive discussion.
The last place I played we had a consistent d1 no-lynch rule put in place by a good friend whose brain works basically the same as mine.Unrelated to the game at hand, why did you leave to play here?
Ok, not even a desultory gesture towards a Tric lynch, we're just letting players build up a meta for scum-sided play on the assumption that they're easily read. No way that could go wrong.
Webadict: very precisely, what's the rationale for your desire to lynch Max? I don't mean in terms of his behaviour, I mean in terms of how it affects the likelihood of you winning the game.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 06:35:34 pm
Unrelated to the game at hand, why did you leave to play here?Most of the players either left over time or literally died. It was a pretty high average age.
Post by: Vector on October 19, 2021, 07:03:09 pm
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 07:22:50 pm
Look, I'm going to be really, really nice, just this once.Unfortunately, I'm the shittiest rookie mind-reader there is, which is why you need to take this nookie and highchair. Give me a sec, I'm setting the mood, and I'm sort of done dealing with your attitude.
If you lynch me, and I flip town (which I will), will you be any closer to figuring out who is mafia? Will you have gained anything, or just move on to your next best suspects?
What I want to do is lynch the person whose flip will most narrow down the suspects, regardless of what it is. I have been clear on this many times in the past.
I understand that your poorly-thought-out reaction results from never having read any of the games I was in before. I thought you had even been in some of them, but maybe I'm misremembering. So, I'd assumed originally that you were more informed than you clearly are. Therefore, even though you are being obnoxious and don't deserve help, I am going to explain.
There are three key sources of certain information in the game: death flips, investigative results, and choices of action targets, especially from mafia actions. Until we have one of those things, reads are meaningless. It's just a bunch of uncollapsed wavefunctions. For example, Tric is either town OR mafia with an experienced partner OR [...]. (There are weights on all the ORs, but that's not relevant to the point.) Until some of those wavefunctions collapse, I don't want to even try to explain them, for a few reasons, the most important of which is that they change when observed.
Being asked a bunch of dumbass questions completely kills my interest in participating, because not only do I not have answers, my brain does not even work that way. You might as well ask me whether green. "Do [I] think [you're] suspicious", I think everyone's suspicious, not even just in the game.
Oh good, I am cut off by a post that's actually useful and interesting.It's more so because you don't even want to share your reads. Even if you don't want to write out a list, I don't really see a progression with your posts where I could pin point what you think of everyone else. At most, we know you suspect Web, and it's implied you think Vector and I are also scummy since you don't believe the Captain info. But not all three of us can be scum, so I ultimately don't know what you actually think of anyone besides Web.That's because I don't think of everyone else. What I mean is I don't have a list of reads, that doesn't exist, I just have this big web of connections, and I don't want to share them yet. You are wrong to think I suspect Web, you, or Victor. You are also wrong to think I specifically "don't believe the Captain info" - I am neutral on it.
Ultimately that is the big difference in how I play this game and also, honestly, 95% of life. I am neutral on things until I have information. So no, you're right, I can't contribute a hell of a lot d1. D1 is this annoying dead zone for me that I just want to get through as quickly as possible without doing too much damage. The last place I played we had a consistent d1 no-lynch rule put in place by a good friend whose brain works basically the same as mine. That was great, but I'm under no illusions that it will happen here, so I try to parse who will split the web best. I'm not even trying to "catch scum" d1, honestly, I just want to split the web so I know where scum are. I don't believe in trying to mind-read people, that's rookie shit.
And also, just, basically, don't try to read into what I say. I am really a very direct person. If I suspect somebody I will say "I suspect [x] of being mafia", not hint at it. My policy is radical honesty.
You're a quarter right, but you might forget that you've kinda got seven other people to let in on your plans to defeat me, man, but hey, I guess you can keep playing like your hands-up. Stand up, band up, take another chance, up until you finally die, my guy, you can give it a try, and that's why I'm telling you to stop being shy.
Obviously, the pressure works, and our quirk of getting you to finally spill the beans for the peons isn't just a free con, almost feels like I've got my pleats on, but I don't yet. Let's pretend (before we descend into insanity) that you actually see the benefits of going after me. And if that's the case, then you'll need a case (and as such I want to see you face debasement.)
I couldn't really care about your life philosophy, since you're playing a game based on sophistry. Show me why I'm wrong, play along, or get stronger, cuz I'm not gonna take your shit any longer.
Executing me would be a misstep, and quite a let down, mostly because the mafia wants my crown and life, a much better trade would be the NPC, who couldn't see why working together would really help our plight. But if that's the case, I'd have to commend, that you might've unintentionally defended yourself, which is what the entire point of our strife was.
Thus, you'll plainly see, Mr. Maximum Spin, that I've started this entire post with a win-dow into your soul, trolling for your thoughts from an empty bowl. I know you're hungry, but give me a minute, I just wanted to take this whole game for a spin-it.
You'll notice, perhaps, how little I care for there to be a barely believable theory in your weary letters, and to do you one better, I made this reply a mood setter and extraordinarily wry. Why, because I needed one of us to try, and it might let finally eat some humble pie.
But, unlikely, because, as I said before, your words frankly bore me, a chore to read and refute them a second more. But, here I am (as I was before) ready to drop you and the mic to the floor.
Let's start with the meaningless: the reading list. We can't take your word until you have a track record. On the other hand, you've got the rest of us, bound by noose and sword, and you aren't heeding shit that we give you's.
If you can't answer a simple question, at what hest can we just send our in best men in to get done in? If I were to follow you, it'd be awful, and we'd wallow in the maws of the Mafia.
Contribute what you can and develop a style, because I don't think you understand you're on trial.
Post by: TricMagic on October 19, 2021, 07:29:04 pm
Claps. Even if wedadict is mafia, he's got style. Let's see Max Spin, how many miles?Look, I'm going to be really, really nice, just this once.Unfortunately, I'm the shittiest rookie mind-reader there is, which is why you need to take this nookie and highchair. Give me a sec, I'm setting the mood, and I'm sort of done dealing with your attitude.
If you lynch me, and I flip town (which I will), will you be any closer to figuring out who is mafia? Will you have gained anything, or just move on to your next best suspects?
What I want to do is lynch the person whose flip will most narrow down the suspects, regardless of what it is. I have been clear on this many times in the past.
I understand that your poorly-thought-out reaction results from never having read any of the games I was in before. I thought you had even been in some of them, but maybe I'm misremembering. So, I'd assumed originally that you were more informed than you clearly are. Therefore, even though you are being obnoxious and don't deserve help, I am going to explain.
There are three key sources of certain information in the game: death flips, investigative results, and choices of action targets, especially from mafia actions. Until we have one of those things, reads are meaningless. It's just a bunch of uncollapsed wavefunctions. For example, Tric is either town OR mafia with an experienced partner OR [...]. (There are weights on all the ORs, but that's not relevant to the point.) Until some of those wavefunctions collapse, I don't want to even try to explain them, for a few reasons, the most important of which is that they change when observed.
Being asked a bunch of dumbass questions completely kills my interest in participating, because not only do I not have answers, my brain does not even work that way. You might as well ask me whether green. "Do [I] think [you're] suspicious", I think everyone's suspicious, not even just in the game.
Oh good, I am cut off by a post that's actually useful and interesting.It's more so because you don't even want to share your reads. Even if you don't want to write out a list, I don't really see a progression with your posts where I could pin point what you think of everyone else. At most, we know you suspect Web, and it's implied you think Vector and I are also scummy since you don't believe the Captain info. But not all three of us can be scum, so I ultimately don't know what you actually think of anyone besides Web.That's because I don't think of everyone else. What I mean is I don't have a list of reads, that doesn't exist, I just have this big web of connections, and I don't want to share them yet. You are wrong to think I suspect Web, you, or Victor. You are also wrong to think I specifically "don't believe the Captain info" - I am neutral on it.
Ultimately that is the big difference in how I play this game and also, honestly, 95% of life. I am neutral on things until I have information. So no, you're right, I can't contribute a hell of a lot d1. D1 is this annoying dead zone for me that I just want to get through as quickly as possible without doing too much damage. The last place I played we had a consistent d1 no-lynch rule put in place by a good friend whose brain works basically the same as mine. That was great, but I'm under no illusions that it will happen here, so I try to parse who will split the web best. I'm not even trying to "catch scum" d1, honestly, I just want to split the web so I know where scum are. I don't believe in trying to mind-read people, that's rookie shit.
And also, just, basically, don't try to read into what I say. I am really a very direct person. If I suspect somebody I will say "I suspect [x] of being mafia", not hint at it. My policy is radical honesty.
You're a quarter right, but you might forget that you've kinda got seven other people to let in on your plans to defeat me, man, but hey, I guess you can keep playing like your hands-up. Stand up, band up, take another chance, up until you finally die, my guy, you can give it a try, and that's why I'm telling you to stop being shy.
Obviously, the pressure works, and our quirk of getting you to finally spill the beans for the peons isn't just a free con, almost feels like I've got my pleats on, but I don't yet. Let's pretend (before we descend into insanity) that you actually see the benefits of going after me. And if that's the case, then you'll need a case (and as such I want to see you face debasement.)
I couldn't really care about your life philosophy, since you're playing a game based on sophistry. Show me why I'm wrong, play along, or get stronger, cuz I'm not gonna take your shit any longer.
Executing me would be a misstep, and quite a let down, mostly because the mafia wants my crown and life, a much better trade would be the NPC, who couldn't see why working together would really help our plight. But if that's the case, I'd have to commend, that you might've unintentionally defended yourself, which is what the entire point of our strife was.
Thus, you'll plainly see, Mr. Maximum Spin, that I've started this entire post with a win-dow into your soul, trolling for your thoughts from an empty bowl. I know you're hungry, but give me a minute, I just wanted to take this whole game for a spin-it.
You'll notice, perhaps, how little I care for there to be a barely believable theory in your weary letters, and to do you one better, I made this reply a mood setter and extraordinarily wry. Why, because I needed one of us to try, and it might let finally eat some humble pie.
But, unlikely, because, as I said before, your words frankly bore me, a chore to read and refute them a second more. But, here I am (as I was before) ready to drop you and the mic to the floor.
Let's start with the meaningless: the reading list. We can't take your word until you have a track record. On the other hand, you've got the rest of us, bound by noose and sword, and you aren't heeding shit that we give you's.
If you can't answer a simple question, at what hest can we just send our in best men in to get done in? If I were to follow you, it'd be awful, and we'd wallow in the maws of the Mafia.
Contribute what you can and develop a style, because I don't think you understand you're on trial.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 07:41:16 pm
1) We aren't executing Tric unless you have the hardest of proofs. It's not happening, and you're wrong if you think Tric is scum.Question: Why townread Roden even though Roden is "one of the two" discussing being under a Captain's thumb?I have no idea who you're quoting when you say ' "one of the two" ', but I'll assume the marks got in there by accident or it's scare quotes or something. I townread Roden because... he's been reasonably active pushing discussion forward, I wouldn't expect scum to immediately claim a jailor role and the captaincy thing because that information is likely useful to town in many ways and has a high chance of catching out Scum if they claim or fakeclaim it. So what I said, basically. Maybe that's not really answering your question, in which case rephrase it and I'll try again.
Ok, not even a desultory gesture towards a Tric lynch, we're just letting players build up a meta for scum-sided play on the assumption that they're easily read. No way that could go wrong.
Webadict: very precisely, what's the rationale for your desire to lynch Max? I don't mean in terms of his behaviour, I mean in terms of how it affects the likelihood of you winning the game.
2) The quotes are because there's THREE people with Captain claims, when you said there were two. Also, Roden is very likely Town as well, so there's no worries there.
3) I was under the impression that Maximum Spin would be the likeliest candidate to be scum. I'm less under that impression now, but I'd still execute them out of spite. If anything, Maximum Spin finally explaining their reasoning is helpful, and explains a little bit better why they're doing things. They're horribly wrong, mind you, but their logic could be construed as consistent to a fault the size of San Andreas.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 07:46:20 pm
Hi, I'm stabilized. I need to get back up to speed but ask me whatever you want, grill the shit out of me. I'm good to go 8)Hey Vector, are you Mafia? If you had to pick a flavor of ice cream from the following list, which would you choose:
a) Vanilla; b) Chocolate; c) I'm Mafia; or d) you'd invent a new type of ice cream made of half soy and half oat dairy-substitute.
This question is pointless because I actually want to hear your reads and maybe have your take on who's top suspect right now?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 19, 2021, 08:39:09 pm
2) The quotes are because there's THREE people with Captain claims, when you said there were two. Also, Roden is very likely Town as well, so there's no worries there.Show me where I said this or I'm going to have to assume you prioritise frequent posting over actually reading the thread.
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 08:51:13 pm
Nah. If I got it wrong, someone else said it, but I don't really care because it's not important. I just explained why it was quoted. Don't pop a blood vessel. You should consider wasting your time and energy on other things, like posting frequently and rap battling.2) The quotes are because there's THREE people with Captain claims, when you said there were two. Also, Roden is very likely Town as well, so there's no worries there.Show me where I said this or I'm going to have to assume you prioritise frequent posting over actually reading the thread.
Sorry, I actually don't know how to read or write, so if this makes any sense to you, it's entirely coincidental.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 19, 2021, 09:49:36 pm
Post by: webadict on October 19, 2021, 10:49:14 pm
I'm not even gonna read that.You never were going to because your playstyle relies on computational analysis, and as such, I am likely your worst nightmare. I will never tell the truth to you, give partial facts, and always be whatever you think I'm not. I am the wild card, an unknown variable, mucking up the equation that you believe this game to be. Frankly, it's almost a good plan. It's just, you know, also illogical from your own point of view. Like you stated before, you believe that No Launch is the optimal D1 play, but that you've had to adjust your playstyle to match the meta here. But, honestly, that IS the logical move here. If you No Launch, then a player dies tonight and you can work with 7p instead of 8p. Not only that, but your plan also fails the rudimentary smell test, which is that you want to random launch, which would be 28% chance from a Town's perspective. If you performed this same feat Tomorrow, it'd be 33% chance, which is (if you weren't aware) higher. It'd also give you information to work with and would fit the odd-number of players test.
So, not only do I not believe that you're following purely logical playstyle at the moment, I actually believe that your true motivation is purely that of convenience. I am the player you will never be able to read. If I am gone, that is merely an improvement for you. Any one player would probably do, but you're not really interested in maximizing the chances of hitting scum for information, no. You're interested in my removal specifically. If I didn't exist, it'd probably be ToonyMan. Assuming, of course, you were completely logical about it.
But, that's actually a fascinating stance. See, I could reasonably deduce that you might be Town from that stance. However, it could just as likely be that you're disgruntled Mafia. If you were Mafia, you'd be getting massive flak in Mafiachat, probs, so unless your buddy is ToonyMan or NJW (who appears to be trying their best to provide a bit of cover), that'd be the only logical pairing for me. EuchreJack... Maybe, but it seems a bit presumptuous. Really, I haven't seen enough Jack to know if they're really the trump suit or not, and Vector is technically possible. Tric and Roden are impossible. They can't be your scumbuddy because they're both Town.
If you want to be neutral, be logically neutral. You don't have to pretend you can see what others see. You don't even have to pretend that we see anything. But, the game is about getting into the minds of your fellow players. Trying to deduce this game through actions is a recipe for disaster when you encounter the brick wall.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 20, 2021, 12:08:21 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 20, 2021, 10:33:07 am
In other news, Maximum Spin needs a replacement. I knew trying to run a bigger game was trying to tempt fate.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 20, 2021, 10:35:07 am
I am also back and similarly somewhat tired. I'll see what I can do about a votecount, since that seems useful right now.
In other news, Maximum Spin needs a replacement. I knew trying to run a bigger game was trying to tempt fate.
Ninja GM, I was just going to ask for a vote count. You're the greatest!
Ouch, replacement.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 20, 2021, 10:40:59 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 20, 2021, 11:18:53 am
That's why I asked to drop out, btw. There is no force on Earth that can make me read that, and if I'm not going to read messages, I shouldn't be playing.
You never were going to because your playstyle relies on computational analysis,Wrong.
Quote
I am likely your worst nightmare.Wrong.
Quote
always be whatever you think I'm not.Wrong.
Quote
I am the wild card, an unknown variableWrong.
Quote
the equation that you believe this game to be.Wrong.
Quote
you believe that No Launch is the optimal D1 playWrong.
Quote
which is that you want to random launchWrong.
Quote
I am the player you will never be able to read.Wrong.
Quote
If I didn't exist, it'd probably be ToonyMan.Wrong. (It'd be EuchreJack.)
I'm not autistic, man.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 20, 2021, 11:25:22 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 20, 2021, 11:48:43 am
I'm sorry, I still don't understand. Who else said it, and why isn't it important? How did you explain why it was quoted?Nah. If I got it wrong, someone else said it, but I don't really care because it's not important. I just explained why it was quoted. Don't pop a blood vessel. You should consider wasting your time and energy on other things, like posting frequently and rap battling.2) The quotes are because there's THREE people with Captain claims, when you said there were two. Also, Roden is very likely Town as well, so there's no worries there.Show me where I said this or I'm going to have to assume you prioritise frequent posting over actually reading the thread.
Sorry, I actually don't know how to read or write, so if this makes any sense to you, it's entirely coincidental.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 20, 2021, 12:10:16 pm
I also don't think you're a Gunsmith, though, but that okay. It's a good deflection, and I like it. In any case, I'll call you Town, and continue on my way.If you don't believe me then why am I town?
Hey Maximum Spin, we have this thing called Reads Lists that let everyone see your awesome graphs of player alignment, you could even skip ahead to the connections thingy we do Day 2. Might even select players and ask "hey which of these is most likely scum".This post rubs me the wrong way. Like kicking a man when he's down.
How many votes are on you again?
Hm, NJW's poor read of Tric is quite similar to NJW's usually poor read of Roden, in that NJW is essentially scumreading Tric for his claim in the same way that NJW usually scumreads Roden for their claim. Essentially, NJW has switched targets. This is actually quite useful to know!Exactly, I noticed this as well. NJW is usually pretty good, but always has a really bad take on one player.
Unless the mafia team is exactly Max/NJW I don't see why NJW would bother to defend them either.
I do have too much information, it's because of my role. Maybe instead of wondering you could press a case, while alive? Are you my speculative false-negative mafia Jack? Because that would explain why you subconciously felt the need to draw attention to my hypothesis.Based on my role and what people have been claiming I believe there is a town false-positive and a mafia false-negative for my inspect. I think Tric is my town false-positive since he claimed so readily and willingly.
There are downsides with both of our inspections, however we should be able to narrow down suspects with our results combined.
Hm, I find this suspicious. Feels like too much information. I'm starting to wonder if Toonyman might be mafia claiming gunsmith cop to justify knowing town from mafia.
Just something to think about later on, after I'm dead.
But, that's actually a fascinating stance. See, I could reasonably deduce that you might be Town from that stance. However, it could just as likely be that you're disgruntled Mafia. If you were Mafia, you'd be getting massive flak in Mafiachat, probs, so unless your buddy is ToonyMan or NJW (who appears to be trying their best to provide a bit of cover), that'd be the only logical pairing for me. EuchreJack... Maybe, but it seems a bit presumptuous. Really, I haven't seen enough Jack to know if they're really the trump suit or not, and Vector is technically possible. Tric and Roden are impossible. They can't be your scumbuddy because they're both Town.I agree with all of this. The rest of this post is town as fuck too. Crazy to see Web's difference in behavior when pressured and when not pressured.
@FallacyofUrist: Please just modkill Maximum Spin. If you don't, we know he's mafia that bailed before getting lynched. Yet we can't lynch, because new players are entitled to new consideration. A replacement now just adds further delay.I don't like this, at all. I was suspicious of Max for eagering wanting to kill Web for bad reasons, but I don't think the team can be Max/Jack (my top two suspects) because of your attitude here.
Also I'm voting you. Jack.
You jumped on the Web wagon. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321562#msg8321562) You jumped on NJW (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321750#msg8321750) after the Web wagon wasn't going to work. And I think in general your tone has been much more distant and aloof like in R1 when you were mafia.
Also, your 50/50 plan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322043#msg8322043) is an easy excuse as you can kill either me or Tric and then go "whoops I protected the other guy last night".
Post by: webadict on October 20, 2021, 12:34:40 pm
Ugh, whatever, I can do this. We both know you're not going to get a replacement. I'm still not reading that... whatever the hell that was, though. It rhymed.I will admit, I hadn't intended it to rhyme at first, but one of the first few lines did, and then it became a challenge to see how far I could take it.
In summary though, you need to convince other people you're right, and you can't do that by holding back or by giving nothing. This game is as much about trust as it is about lying, and if you won't give people what they ask for, how will you be helpful?
@ToonyMan: I never said you were Town. Only that I would call you Town. There's a subtle difference.
@NJW2000: You are really stuck on something that doesn't matter.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 20, 2021, 02:34:56 pm
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (1): NJW2000
EuchreJack (1): ToonyMan
NJW2000 (2): Vector, EuchreJack
Vector (1): Roden
webadict (1): Maximum Spin
Maximum Spin (1): TricMagic
No Execution (1): webadict
Not Voting (0):
5 to hammer.
Votecount. No flavor because I'm in class and 10% brain fog. Officially calling Day end at 1 AM, Central time, Thursday, nya. Please correct any mistakes you notice if there are any, I'll probably do a much more thorough check later.
Post by: Roden on October 20, 2021, 02:50:51 pm
Unless they're deep wolfing hard, which I doubt, Tric and Web are both lock town for me. Everyone else is either a town lean (Toony, NJW), or null (Vector, Max), with Jack being most likely scum at this point. We know from round 1 that Jack and Vector distanced from each other, so if Jack is mafia again, I don't doubt he would do it again. I don't want to make any pre-flip associatives though so I'm not looking into that yet. I'll also hold off on voting until we get a new vote count.
PE: Oop, ok there it is.
EuchreJack
Post by: Roden on October 20, 2021, 02:53:14 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 20, 2021, 03:32:55 pm
Seriously, nothing to say but that. And why is Jack suddenly a lynch target? NJW
Post by: NJW2000 on October 20, 2021, 04:36:51 pm
@NJW2000: You are really stuck on something that doesn't matter.Nonetheless, talk me through it.
Don't particularly think Jack is scum, but fair warning: I may vote him to tie the vote if Vector doesn't post before day-end. I don't think I can give town information by getting lynched by an AFK player and an OMGUS. I believe Max being like this is mostly NAI, but I also don't expect future interactions to be much more productive or less tiresome, so do think a Max lynch would be acceptably town-sided regardless. People have been pushing a "NJW defending Max" narrative, and will presumably see this as a swing, but I've seen Max's D1s before and he largely hasn't deviated from my expectations at all. Would like to see Vector post before I on a firm scumread for today.
Post by: webadict on October 20, 2021, 05:07:07 pm
It's actually not on me to tell you anything about stuff that doesn't matter. It's on you to prove it's relevant, which you haven't. If anything, it feels like you're attempting to derail discussion. I'm actually going to take an opposite stance here: If the votes are tied at the end of the day, I will vote for someone.@NJW2000: You are really stuck on something that doesn't matter.Nonetheless, talk me through it.
Don't particularly think Jack is scum, but fair warning: I may vote him to tie the vote if Vector doesn't post before day-end. I don't think I can give town information by getting lynched by an AFK player and an OMGUS. I believe Max being like this is mostly NAI, but I also don't expect future interactions to be much more productive or less tiresome, so do think a Max lynch would be acceptably town-sided regardless. People have been pushing a "NJW defending Max" narrative, and will presumably see this as a swing, but I've seen Max's D1s before and he largely hasn't deviated from my expectations at all. Would like to see Vector post before I on a firm scumread for today.
I think a fun game we could play is to choose two people who would be the best to be tied to pick the loser of. If you want, we can have it be an unofficial one with no eliminations behind it. I'll go first: Maximum Spin or EuchreJack?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 20, 2021, 07:19:38 pm
It's actually not on me to tell you anything about stuff that doesn't matter. It's on you to prove it's relevant, which you haven't. If anything, it feels like you're attempting to derail discussion. I'm actually going to take an opposite stance here: If the votes are tied at the end of the day, I will vote for someone.So you posting incessantly but not actually bothering to read the thread is irrelevant? To me, it's an indication that someone's mafia.
As is you jumping into a discussion you weren't involved in and answering something for somebody else, to be honest. Hectoring folks without even checking if what you were posting made sense. But no, you think that kind of thing is standard town play, and talking about it is derailing discussion?
Quote
I think a fun game we could play is to choose two people who would be the best to be tied to pick the loser of. If you want, we can have it be an unofficial one with no eliminations behind it. I'll go first: Maximum Spin or EuchreJack?There may be a clear and obvious meaning to "two people who would be the best to be tied to pick the loser of", and I'll gladly play along if I'm shown one, but right now I'm seeing nothing. Are we meant to pick the person who we'd like to lynch out of those two? Which of the two we'd like to break a tie?
So, no Vector here to shake things up, day ends in <six hours and I'll be awake for a bit longer, but not that long. Voting EuchreJack in the hope of a tie. Not reading Jack as mafia, but my D1 reading ability is generally much weaker than Roden or Toony's, so I'm comfortable with the idea of eliminating him.
Post by: Vector on October 20, 2021, 07:40:12 pm
\Hey Vector, are you Mafia? If you had to pick a flavor of ice cream from the following list, which would you choose:
a) Vanilla; b) Chocolate; c) I'm Mafia; or d) you'd invent a new type of ice cream made of half soy and half oat dairy-substitute.
This question is pointless because I actually want to hear your reads and maybe have your take on who's top suspect right now?
I'm town; coffee.
I don't have a lot Today, but:
Tric is probably Town. I agree regarding Wubba's point on Tric's #1 scumtell.
I think EJ lurks a lot more as scum, lean town. Easily flustered to say the least, both as town and scum, but I think that he's clear for now .
I'm neutral on Roden. I think how he's playing now is close enough to his town game that I would lean town, but I'll look here again Tomorrow.
Webadict and Toonyman are both null. I lean town on Webadict because he usually pings my gut as scum, but "null" is as high as he ever gets on my readslist, so there's that. R.e. Toony, I would have to work at it more to get a sense. Web and Toony usually work to clear each other. It will be interesting to see how the dynamic plays out.
The most interesting thing that's happened so far is with MaximumSpin. We should note that we have some NJW protecting Maximum Spin (pocketing?) for future reference.
I could see scum NJW. Not really a fan of them tying the vote on the basis of my "not showing up." I won't scumhunt unless Vector comes in, otherwise I'll force a tie? Just seems weird.
Well, I'll be online tonight if anyone wants to come help launch NJW 9_9
Post by: NJW2000 on October 20, 2021, 08:46:45 pm
As for me not wanting to post more reads, things looked pretty settled without your presence. It seems to be completely between me and Jack, barring upheavals I can't be involved in in the next handful of hours. Exhaustively rereading the thread and posting a long case against someone else didn't feel particularly worthwhile. It wasn't as if I was going to eliminate them. Not to mention multiple people wasting my energy with their mistakes, wisecracking and then scumreading me for irritation - doesn't exactly dispose me towards investing more time.
Oh, and in case people aren't getting the picture, Max is just like this. Thinks D1 lynches are pointless and stupid, moves discussion onto his theories about that, engages abrasively wherever possible, refers to conditional judgements as "weights on a directed graph". Does this kind of thing consistently D1 as town, and presumably as scum too. N. A. I.
Anyhow, goodnight.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 20, 2021, 08:56:51 pm
Thinks D1 lynches are pointless and stupid,That's not really accurate. I don't want to get into this all over again, but you've clearly misunderstood my whole point. I don't know how to explain it better. I despair.
Quote
moves discussion onto his theories about that,Believe me, I'd love to stop talking about that! I only go into it when some asshole gives me stick for not playing stupid RVS games. Hell, I tried to dodge talking about it for hours this time because I knew you would whine about it, but then people were like "weh weh you have to explain yourself". Make up your minds!
Quote
engages abrasively wherever possible,What, have you seen webadict? I dispute this altogether. I am engaging in the way I normally engage with people. I do come from a high-conflict culture, I'll give you that. My definition of "abrasive" might differ from yours.
Quote
refers to conditional judgements as "weights on a directed graph".well, they are.
I mean, seriously, that's what it looks like in my head. What else would I call it? I have the actual graph as a mental image, and I know who to lynch when it moves.
Anyway, my web has changed. I guess... ugh, EuchreJack is probably the most practical choice.
Post by: TricMagic on October 20, 2021, 09:01:29 pm
And yes, this is a poke at you for unvoting and making it a tie. Now you're the tie with me.
NJW
MAXSPIN, you are NOT getting away with that.
.... And I still can't lynch you cause I'd die. NJW. I am rather annoyed with you right now for that. Whatever.
Post by: TricMagic on October 20, 2021, 09:02:10 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 20, 2021, 09:57:05 pm
Post by: webadict on October 20, 2021, 10:16:03 pm
StuffI see. I suppose the true mistake was that I actually spent 10 minutes searching for the post in question in a tired haze trying to reply to it before you mentioned it in your post because I wanted to point out that person was wrong, but it was after I had just woken up from a nap, and I literally lost the post somehow. I thought that it referred to another post entirely. You can see that as me not paying attention, but it was mostly just a mistake I wanted corrected and probably couldn't think properly on at the time.
It doesn't really matter to me because it wasn't a point against you being suspicious. If anything, it was meant to be me using it for reference for my own role information, to help track down the Cap'n. You can take that as suspicious, I don't care, I fish for clues, that's a freebie for anyone if you wanna frame me.
I also took a negative liking to your response because I had assumed it was meant to find something substantive to go after me for when it wasn't even meant to be suspicious, just corrective. That probably sparked a whole thing, unfortunately.
So, the takeaway is that this was clearly my fault and a mistake from my bad sleeping habits. I jump into everyone's business unapologetically, and I will continue to do so because I am a control freak, and if it looks unproductive, I'm gonna step in.
Now that that's out of the way, here's my points, which I'm sad I finally got around to now that I woke up from another nap.
I dislike that you use Maximum Spin's meta to defend him, but also don't use TricMagic's meta as evidence he's Town. It seems disingenuous. That same reasoning applies in my mind.
I do think this creates a bit of a divide between you and EuchreJack. Can I create a team out of you and EuchreJack this way? It could be distancing. I dunno. Tough call, really. If I can't though, I have to use Vector or Maximum Spin... or, worse, ToonyMan. That sorta breaks the game wide open again. I want it to be you, because it'd be easy, but that seems too easy at this point.
What I'll say is if it's not EuchreJack, then I will absolutely go after you Tomorrow.
Post by: webadict on October 20, 2021, 10:32:13 pm
@Toony: Let's goooooo. EuchreJack
@NJW: If EJ flips scum, you can gain Townpoints.
@MaxSpin: If EJ flips scum... still suspicious...
@TricMagic: It was nice knowing one of us.
@Roden: I don't even know who you are, but you're marked as Town on my list.
@EuchreJack: Nothing personnel, kid.
Post by: webadict on October 20, 2021, 10:34:15 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 20, 2021, 10:36:41 pm
Also, Mafia, plz no kill, I'll do whatever you want, just no kill plz. Thx.Lol
Post by: EuchreJack on October 20, 2021, 10:49:43 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 20, 2021, 10:51:54 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 20, 2021, 10:55:53 pm
Oh I didn't even realize that. I'm sorry Jack if I'm wrong.Toonyman, 2 things:
1) It's in your meta to suspect me D1, so I don't hold it personally. You're the only one who shouldn't be suspected of scum when I flip town.
2) You're a good player, to the point that your continuing over-reliance on meta is actually hurting your game. Us weaker players still need the crutch, but isn't it about time you gave it up?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 20, 2021, 11:01:33 pm
1) I should have hammered Maximum Spin when I had the chance. It'll be up to you to see if it was worth keeping them around. Maybe their D2 play will be better?
2) NJW is my #1 suspect. They THIRD VOTED me allegedly to tie things up, but also gave an excuse as to why they might not be available to change the vote.
3) Ask Roden why their thoughts regarding me suddenly changed.
4) Hm, why did Web feel the sudden need to hammer? Not helping you much, Webster, since I'm still posting. :P
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 21, 2021, 01:41:07 am
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (5): ToonyMan, Roden, NJW2000, Maximum Spin, webadict
NJW2000 (1): EuchreJack
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (1): TricMagic
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): Vector
5 to hammer.
This time around, the verdict was clear. The greater majority, new and old, came to agree that EuchreJack was a traitor in their midst. A mole from Mafiaco, out to steal the secret hot dog mustard formula from WUBA-Inc. It was obvious. Their guess could not possibly be wrong!
Unfortunately, after the dust settled and the clock chimed, they were proven wrong.
EuchreJack was Town.
A set of documents found in his room reveals exactly what he was accredited as - a bodyguard. One with the misfortune to not have any of his equipment available.
Quote
Bodyguard (town):
(Night) Protect [target]: You guard your target, protecting them from up to one kill action performed this Night. If you successfully prevent a kill action, however, you will be hit with its effects instead (this will not change the targeting of the action).
The lights flickered out. A lightbulb shattered, in time with the clock chime.
It is now Night 1. Night 1 will end Friday, 1 AM, Central time. Or when I receive all Night actions and have the time to process them (which is less likely since I have a midterm today). If you can't or won't act, let me know / remind me and I can process things faster.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 22, 2021, 02:41:02 am
While nobody has fallen, where does that leave you?
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (7): ToonyMan, Roden, TricMagic, NJW2000, Vector, webadict, Maximum Spin
4 to hammer.
Day 2 has begun, and will end in around 48 hours on Sunday, 3 AM, Central/forum time. Or on a hammer.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 22, 2021, 04:05:32 am
I deflected Webadict onto MaximumSpin.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 06:04:03 am
Ok, looks like some claims may be in order, as the scumkill seems to have failed. We may be able to build up a picture of the night. I am a captain restricted deflector. I can choose my second target but my first is chosen for me.Aye. I did warn ye Mafia not to kill me. Now look whatcha gone an' done!
I deflected Webadict onto MaximumSpin.
Yarrr... I be a One-shot Roleblocker Captain. Me crew consists of a Jailer... Nah, I'll let you claim as ye want, but this be a lie (Roden, the ship "doctor"), a 50% Inventor (Vector, me best cannoneer), and a Deflector (NJW2000, me first mate).
During the day, I can set the course for me crews' ships. And once at Night, I can lock onna ye in the brig!
T'prove I be a scurvy sea dog, I sent me best men... er, sea dogs... to come test their metal against yer's truly! Needed to prove which o' ye were truly up ter the task of sailin' me ship! NJW2000 passed th' bar with flyin' colors. Tha' should prove the lad's greener'n seaweed.
So, either Maximum Spin be Kill-Immune, or Roden may be yer savior, ya harr.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 06:25:18 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 06:27:58 am
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 06:43:08 am
Please tell me you stay in character this entire day. It's the only chance for Pirate Mafia 3.If'n I cen manage, then yaaaaarrr.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 07:06:37 am
Right. I checked Vector and it was negative so no guns on them at least.Yarrrr, mateys. Why'n' we let ol' Toony pick who walks the plank today... wouldn'ye say that be more'n fair?
So, ToonyMan, who be yer most suspicious? Ye can take yer time if'n ya want.
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 07:50:15 am
Right. I checked Vector and it was negative so no guns on them at least.K, I'm a 1-shot Parity Cop, rather than the other one. I check Two target's auras rather than 1. And I can confirm Vector and Max Spin have the Same Alignment.
In other news, if you don't believe me, lynch me. Or I'm a multiple, but what would be the balance in that?
That said, someone in the Captain's list is a traitor.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 07:56:10 am
I think the obvious suspects are NJW/Max, but NJW is throwing Max under the bus with their claim. We can see that no one died yet again which means that NJW would have had to willing fuck his partner over since he claims he can choose the second target, in this case Max.
Vector was the suspicious unknown for me which is why I inspected them last night.
I think at least one of NJW/Roden/Vector/Web in the shipcrew is mafia, although I don't suspect any of these players besides NJW.
Between Max and Roden I think Max is a more likely hit.
PPE:
Oh shit. And yes I agree with the Captain's list part.Right. I checked Vector and it was negative so no guns on them at least.K, I'm a 1-shot Parity Cop, rather than the other one. I check Two target's auras rather than 1. And I can confirm Vector and Max Spin have the Same Alignment.
In other news, if you don't believe me, lynch me. Or I'm a multiple, but what would be the balance in that?
That said, someone in the Captain's list is a traitor.
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 08:06:59 am
Also, what's the chance that Vector is the Mafia here? As an Inventor, his role might be stronger than town sees. Pass out guns to allies to use, or his own partner. Either way, I'd be interested in hearing Max Spin's roll. If he can manage to convince us, that narrows down the pool of subjects tremendously.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 08:11:19 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 08:12:47 am
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 08:16:06 am
Hold on, none of this makes sense. I could've sworn it was Max and ToonyMan at this point.
Wtf? Is it Vector and Max? But, that doesn't make sense either.
I'm gonna map the pairings... This is confusing.
If TricMagic is lying, it's TricMagic and one of ToonyMan or Maximum Spin.
If Maximum Spin is Bulletproof, Roden is no longer clear.
Vector and Maximum Spin are a possible pairing.
If NJW2000 is lying, they're fucking galaxy brain Mafia, and we lose.
It's possible Maximum Spin was roleblocked by Roden. I think thier role does that?
I also want to potentially clarify, in case it is confusing: I ONLY control the primary target of their main role (which is why the Deflector can choose their target.)
That's true, I could see Inventor being a way to hide your guns. Although if Vector and Web are telling the truth then Web gets to choose Vector's targets. In which case Web probably gave himself some shit last night.Yaarrrr, all actions were deflected to Maximum Spin, so I've only this key to me best treasure of all: solitude!
Oh wait nevermind, Web couldn't give himself anything because of the deflection.Me worst enemy... NINJAS.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 08:19:00 am
Yar, but now I can't make Toony squirm anymore...
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 08:23:25 am
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 08:28:57 am
LolololYe seasick scallion, I still think yer a lyin' landlubber!
I just can't prove it.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 08:31:04 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 08:32:36 am
I love how you think I'm full of shit but won't vote me without hard evidence.LolololYe seasick scallion, I still think yer a lyin' landlubber!
I just can't prove it.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 08:55:28 am
I can accept that yer as slipp'ry as ambergris, and wait fer .e crew to give their reports, yaaaarrrr.I love how you think I'm full of shit but won't vote me without hard evidence.LolololYe seasick scallion, I still think yer a lyin' landlubber!
I just can't prove it.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 09:30:58 am
If Vector/MS, then either MS did the kill and got blocked, or Vector did the kill and targeted me (They wouldn't do that, would they??? :()
If ToonyMan is Mafia, then... A lot of factors are unsure.
If Roden is Mafia, then who the fuck is their partner?? It has to be ToonyMan... or like, maybe NJW2000??
We could vote out one of Vector or Max to test them and then go into tomorrow. Max hasn't claimed, so that lends credit to them being scum, and Vector's lack of presence is also scummy. Additionally, me being attacked would make sense from their perspective because I soft-claimed to Vector yesterday, and they would've picked up on that, so their goal was to kill the Captain and remove all the power from Town.
I'm pretty sure that's what happened... Which would be really unfortunate if true, for so many reasons.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 09:41:26 am
you'd invent a new type of ice cream made of half soy and half oat dairy-substitute.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 09:57:25 am
I really do think Tric just straight up caught the mafia team which is fucking hilarious, so I'll vote Maximum Spin.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 11:35:55 am
I happen to be a commuter. I didn't do anything in the night, nor did I receive anything, unless some weird flavour about sitting in a room with chips and a book was supposed to indicate something. I am not entirely sure how this resolves the webadict-centred action web.
Vector/TMag is a highly plausible scum pairing - Vector knows TM's play well enough to coach him. This could, therefore, be a plan to appear to clear Vector by getting me lynched, since they would know I am town. This would be easy enough to pull off that it's an extremely sensible plan.
I am going to hold back on voting until I hear more results from people.
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 11:44:10 am
Interesting.MaxSpin, there isn't any reason for you to be a commuter, since that would mean actions should fail against you. Yet I recieved your alignment check with vector. Put simply, the team can't be Vector/? unless you yourself are the teammate with them. If you believed me to be lying, the obvious thing would be to vote me. But that would out you in an instant, wouldn't it?
I happen to be a commuter. I didn't do anything in the night, nor did I receive anything, unless some weird flavour about sitting in a room with chips and a book was supposed to indicate something. I am not entirely sure how this resolves the webadict-centred action web.
Vector/TMag is a highly plausible scum pairing - Vector knows TM's play well enough to coach him. This could, therefore, be a plan to appear to clear Vector by getting me lynched, since they would know I am town. This would be easy enough to pull off that it's an extremely sensible plan.
I am going to hold back on voting until I hear more results from people.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 12:31:58 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 12:36:14 pm
Damn it, I really want to say more but I think I should wait to hear from the rest of you.
Max, you have to frame Tric if you are Mafia. If Tric is Mafia, they are currently framing you with a claim that can't be. You have to go after Tric.I don't have to do anything. I do what I want. Right now I actually do want to lynch Tric, since from my perspective that would either catch mafia or clear Vector, but hearing more from those who haven't spoken or haven't claimed is more important because it could change my mind.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 12:38:26 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 12:45:10 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 12:47:45 pm
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 12:48:01 pm
You can't go after anyone else except me, and if you do that, you will lose. I feel like saying that makes you think you should test it, but you shouldn't.
Convince me that TricMagic is Mafia. I am going to point out the holes as best I can. If you can make an air-tight case, I will vote TricMagic. That's a promise.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 12:48:45 pm
How does Vector coach Tric when Vector has been away a lot of the game?Has Vector been away a lot of the game?
Indeed, in the past, Vector not appearing present in the thread has been a scumtell.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 12:50:10 pm
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 12:53:38 pm
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 12:58:20 pm
So, you still have a chance, but you have to make me believe you.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 12:59:06 pm
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 01:02:13 pm
Sometimes I think I should just make a completely blank post to see what you read into it.... I have spent the entire game helping you, and you probably don't even realize it.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 01:06:18 pm
It would work better if we spoke the same language.Sometimes I think I should just make a completely blank post to see what you read into it.... I have spent the entire game helping you, and you probably don't even realize it.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 01:10:22 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 01:20:49 pm
What I currently know is that either TricMagic is lying, or all three of me, TricMagic, and Vector are town.
Do you see how this does not mean that lynching TricMagic is necessarily the best move, depending on what information others provide? Do you see how this does not lend itself to creating an "airtight case" given that "airtight" would only apply if the latter possibility were impossible?
TricMagic has stated that Vector and I have the same alignment, and it is entirely possible that we do. In fact, going into n1, I suspected so.
You are telling me I need to convince you to vote for TricMagic, and I don't even want you to vote for TricMagic yet. Consistently, throughout this game, your help has been based on a misunderstanding of my actual motivations. I find this vexing because I have tried to be perfectly clear about my motivations. We don't speak the same language; if a lion could talk, would you understand him? (That's Wittgenstein, don't go driving yourself crazy trying to parse it. It means that communication is impossible between two minds that don't even share a reference frame.)
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 01:22:52 pm
(For that matter, someone else could also be coaching Tric, like, say, Toonyman. Or anyone who knows Tric's towngame, really.)I don't think I could handle being on a team with Tric.
(That's Wittgenstein, don't go driving yourself crazy trying to parse it. It means that communication is impossible between two minds that don't even share a reference frame.)Down the rabbit hole indeed.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 01:41:43 pm
If you don't think Wittgenstein is one of the greatest philosophers, then sad to say, your tastes are objectively wrong.(That's Wittgenstein, don't go driving yourself crazy trying to parse it. It means that communication is impossible between two minds that don't even share a reference frame.)Down the rabbit hole indeed.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 01:43:39 pm
This is because all other roles are known by me. I gave them away. Unless you think I am lying, which I'm not, and I do think that might've been a mistake on my part. This can be confirmed by each other player I command.
Vector is a confirmed Inventor.
NJW2000 is a confirmed Deflector.
Roden is currently unlisted but confirmed, and I am pretty sure the did a protect + block action.
ToonyMan isn't confirmed Gunsmith.
TricMagic isn't confirmed Parity Cop.
You can think NJW2000 is scum, but if so, then I was attacked, and Roden can't be scum. This would mean that ToonyMan or TricMagic are his partner (to you, at least.)
You can think Roden is scum, but if so, you should be dead. They would need to No-kill.
You can think Vector is scum, but if so, Vector is scum with TricMagic or ToonyMan. This is possible, but not likely.
You can think TricMagic is scum, and he could be scum with anyone.
You can think ToonyMan is scum and he could be scum with anyone.
I can't be scum. If I were scum, I would've killed. The only person protected was you or me. And you can't be protected.
I hope this helped clear up the confusion on why I am everyone's best friend.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 01:45:59 pm
Did you forget the last game?
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 01:48:51 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 01:49:51 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 01:51:11 pm
I highly recommend that you accept that I'm Town. Do you think I am scum?Of course, but that's unrelated to the game.
That was a joke. I'm obviously not gonna answer this. What could possibly be the benefit of answering?
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 01:53:15 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 22, 2021, 01:56:57 pm
I do like Witt.If you don't think Wittgenstein is one of the greatest philosophers, then sad to say, your tastes are objectively wrong.(That's Wittgenstein, don't go driving yourself crazy trying to parse it. It means that communication is impossible between two minds that don't even share a reference frame.)Down the rabbit hole indeed.
OooooooooooooI highly recommend that you accept that I'm Town. Do you think I am scum?Of course, but that's unrelated to the game.
oooooooooooo
Ooooooooooooo
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 02:05:36 pm
If you think I'm scum, you have a reason to not trust me. If you think I'm Town, you have a reason to believe what I say.I highly recommend that you accept that I'm Town. Do you think I am scum?Of course, but that's unrelated to the game.
That was a joke. I'm obviously not gonna answer this. What could possibly be the benefit of answering?
Oh yeah, one last thing, your clearance of Roden depends on the assumption that I can be nightkilled. Did you think I would miss that? I hate assumptions most of all.True. I actually wasn't aware of how Commuter worked. My bad. Roden would never have killed you, though. They probably would've killed Tric, ToonyMan, or me. All three targets had no protection last Night if you are untargetable (Deflector would fail). Same for me. I would've killed TricMagic.
You can do this. One step at a time.
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 02:12:08 pm
Less confusion for one. Where is the methodical logic, and when are you going to shared it. As it stands, you're looking for ways out rather than ways for things to make sense.I highly recommend that you accept that I'm Town. Do you think I am scum?Of course, but that's unrelated to the game.
That was a joke. I'm obviously not gonna answer this. What could possibly be the benefit of answering?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 22, 2021, 02:15:42 pm
Initial observations:
- Scum inventor is more plausible with gunsmith cop claim in the picture
- Given last game, wacky alternative mafiakills aren't out the picture, making an inventor after a no-kill N1 look exceedingly fishy
- Any possible scumteam contains someone canny enough for a no-kill gambit, BUT:
- No-kill would have been quite unattractive to scum with a conventional kill because a 5v2 gives town one more chance to eliminate correctly than 4v2.
- Yeah, Parity Cop should fail on a commuter so one of Tric and Max are lying. So we should kill one of them. Right? I mean, I'll check this reasoning, but...
- I guess I should have failed to hit a commuter too? So yeah, lynching Max. Hm...
- I've lynched a townie false commuter claim before, but if Max is trying to do what Met did in the first round, that would be a tad loco. Unless he's going to drop the claim in a second or something... which would be both tiresome and uncharacteristic
The inventor stuff is worrying. Also Web and Toony are both good at controlling the narrative, and the possibility that we just stopped a kill and caught the entire mafia team seems a bit too good to be true.
How exactly does Vector's inventor power work? Anything other than guns?
Yarrr... I be a One-shot Roleblocker Captain. Me crew consists of a Jailer... Nah, I'll let you claim as ye want, but this be a lie (Roden, the ship "doctor"), a 50% Inventor (Vector, me best cannoneer), and a Deflector (NJW2000, me first mate).
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 02:16:19 pm
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 02:21:04 pm
@Maximum Spin: Correct. They can choose to follow my orders or not use that action. I am not told either way, but this also doesn't affect the Mafiakill.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 02:24:57 pm
@NJW2000: I actually do not learn what abilities my crewmates get. I explicitly asked and was denied, sadly. I guessed what Roden's did, based on their claim.It sounds like everything you said is based on a playing card castle of assumptions.
@Maximum Spin: Correct. They can choose to follow my orders or not use that action. I am not told either way, but this also doesn't affect the Mafiakill.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 02:47:31 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 02:50:50 pm
Post by: Roden on October 22, 2021, 02:56:56 pm
Last night I was ordered to target Web. I did, and chose to Jail him. However, I actually got a results PM that told me that I screwed up and Jailed Max instead. With no kill happening, it leads me to believe Max made the NK and that I stopped him. I just don't think scum would've targeted him, so I don't think I protected him. Though if NJW's Deflect also affects kill actions, that would explain why there wasn't a kill, since I would be protecting someone who became the NK target.
The Commuter claim has to be a lie though because Tric has results on Max and NJW seems to have successfully Deflected me onto Max. Toony's claim that Vector doesn't have a gun is Strange though, if both Max and Vector are scum. It's possible we have a scum Inventor who has to hand out guns to town who they believe will misfire at night, I suppose. Maybe that's what the Gunsmith is for?
Post by: Roden on October 22, 2021, 03:01:31 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 03:02:49 pm
The Commuter claim has to be a lie though because Tric has results on Max and NJW seems to have successfully Deflected me onto Max.Okay, I guess I need to make this clearer.
I didn't do anything in the night
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 03:08:36 pm
That is very much nonstandard and I now suspect Roden is lying.
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 03:18:18 pm
FallacyofUrist: Surely, people are not told if they've been redirected to an unexpected target?
That is very much nonstandard and I now suspect Roden is lying.
In such case the team would be Webadict/?. But you are being way too passive. The very fact you did nothing is strange, as if you were a commuter you wouldn't be able to be targeted. Instead you stayed in your room and read, without ever noticing the door was locked. Your claim simply falls apart and is based on a cop not targeting you. Or a jailkeep in this case.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 03:22:34 pm
The very fact you did nothing is strangeHow? What action should I have taken? What action that I do not have should I have taken?
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 03:24:59 pm
Post by: Vector on October 22, 2021, 04:34:50 pm
I was told to target Webadict last night, which I chose not to do. I have other Inventor gifts than the old pew pew but I didn't want to give any of them to Webadick, so I didn't.
Webadict does correctly have the title of my role.
I need to reread but I want to re-emphasize that it could be that both Tric and Max could be telling the truth if Tric were redirected to someone else without the commuter power. In that case both I and that other person would be town.
Do we already have a post compiling night actions?
Post by: Vector on October 22, 2021, 04:38:13 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 22, 2021, 05:06:08 pm
Last night I was ordered to target Web. I did, and chose to Jail him. However, I actually got a results PM that told me that I screwed up and Jailed Max instead.Haha wait what
What mod does this
This game
I literally
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 05:09:45 pm
Hi,This is all I needed.
I was told to target Webadict last night, which I chose not to do. I have other Inventor gifts than the old pew pew but I didn't want to give any of them to Webadick, so I didn't.
Webadict does correctly have the title of my role.
I need to reread but I want to re-emphasize that it could be that both Tric and Max could be telling the truth if Tric were redirected to someone else without the commuter power. In that case both I and that other person would be town.
Do we already have a post compiling night actions?
Maximum Spin
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 05:11:06 pm
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 05:13:25 pm
Webadict, you've been talking a lot. Who's scum?We all are. You, me, Roden, NJW. Every signle one of us, man.
Post by: Vector on October 22, 2021, 05:14:56 pm
Post by: Vector on October 22, 2021, 05:15:46 pm
This is all I needed.
Maximum Spin
Also, wut?
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 05:16:37 pm
Instead, a clean post. And I don't see any case where the redirect would happen to me. As the redirector, the jailor, and the captain would need to be lying for that to happen.
Give me a moment.
Nin.
If Max is town, that means Roden, NJW, or Web is scum. Likely Web at the center.
Nin. And I'm a 1-shot parity cop, your alignment is the same as Max's.
... Any other post?
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 05:18:45 pm
I'M SCUM? SINCE WHEN!October 17th.
Maximum Spin is 100% Mafia. Three people confirm targeting them.This is all I needed.
Maximum Spin
Also, wut?
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 05:21:33 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 05:23:41 pm
Based upon this series of events, I can cross off web as a potential suspect here. 3 people would need to be lying, webadict, NJW, and Roden. Roden was deflected, NJW did the deflecting, and web did the ordering. Had Vector also acted, MaxSpin would have either received an item, or none at all. Either way it's a strong confirm of truth or falsehood.
And as webadict was the likely target last night, it also redirected onto Maxspin, who was protected. Or a Commuter. Either way, a perfect safety net.
We can then add my result debunking the commuter claim and tying Vector and Maxspin's alignment together. And Maxspin is still sticking to that claim.
Of note, Toony is a Gunsmith Cop. But not a limited one. This allows him to see who Vector passes his guns to, but may not allow him to see a kill. Simply confirm who has been given the gun. (Dinner time, be back later.)
Post by: Vector on October 22, 2021, 05:24:56 pm
I'm 100% ok with trading me for MaximumSpin if it means that we hit scum, but someone has to be lying.
@Tric: I'm sorry but what about Webadict with a gun sounds like a solid move
Vector, why wouldn't you give me an Invention? Did I not seem Town to you?
I think that you're hard enough to read and trigger-happy enough that giving you more power is pretty much always a bad idea.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 05:32:36 pm
I am not understanding how Tric's parity copping would work, then, because I'm town.Vec, I want to be clear about this. I am currently more or less convinced that we are both town, and Tric did in fact confirm our alignments to be the same. Let us proceed from that position. Tric is probably also town in this circumstance.
I'm 100% ok with trading me for MaximumSpin if it means that we hit scum, but someone has to be lying.
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 05:33:31 pm
I am not understanding how Tric's parity copping would work, then, because I'm town.
I'm 100% ok with trading me for MaximumSpin if it means that we hit scum, but someone has to be lying.
@Tric: I'm sorry but what about Webadict with a gun sounds like a solid move
Very Jack of you Vector. A vote for Max is a vote for you.
The other option today is to vote TricMagic
And it doesn't but you just said you had other inventions. Scumslip?
Web is the only other option, but you commuter claim has to go.
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 05:37:41 pm
As it stands though, you have to pick between people once more. And ask a question, why was Jack removed?
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 05:40:45 pm
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2021, 05:41:34 pm
Post by: Vector on October 22, 2021, 05:45:48 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 22, 2021, 05:46:44 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 22, 2021, 05:51:46 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 22, 2021, 06:09:34 pm
FallacyofUrist: Surely, people are not told if they've been redirected to an unexpected target?By default, people are always aware of who they end up targeting, at least in my games. This has been the case even in my earliest attempts at mafia-GM-ing. A variant ability could change this, however.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (1): Maximum Spin
TricMagic (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (4): ToonyMan, TricMagic, webadict, Vector
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (2): Roden, NJW2000
4 to hammer.
Vector reached out and shoved Maximum Spin into the execution pit. They blink for a moment as they realize what just happened.
"I didn't realize he was so close to the edge, okay?"
But alas, the mistake proved to be, in truth, a mistake.
The clock's hour hand slammed down, accelerating, hitting its boundary as Maximum Spin's true nature was revealed - and despite how he was viewed, he proved to be far from evil.
Maximum Spin was Town.
A search of his room revealed nothing but a worn sleeping bag. No weapons, nothing of danger.
Quote
2-Shot Commuter (town):
(2-Shot, Night) Commute: You temporarily exit the game by hiding on the roof of the hotel in a sleeping bag, granting you absolute immunity to all Night actions. (Players who attempt to act on you will receive a ‘your action failed’ result.) Your sleeping bag will wear out after you do this twice, however.
Another lightbulb shattered, powdered glass and metal sprinkling down to mark the death of an innocent. All for what, a deli's business interests? Or was there something more here?
Night 2 has begun, and will end Saturday, 6 PM, or approximately 24 hours from now. Or when everyone sends in their actions and I have time to process them.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 23, 2021, 07:51:49 pm
And of the body.
webadict's empty shell lay upon the floor, a gunshot having ended his life. Precisely placed to take his heart.
But there was reason to celebrate. It was clear from the etching of the Mafiaco logo - an hourglass - upon his sea chest, that he was a supporter of those mafia. No true member, but a supporter. A sympathizer. And now he was dead.
webadict was a mafia-ally.
It seems the Captain had fallen - his rum forever to remain unsealed. You would toast to his memory as he would have wanted, but no, you cannot - he was working against you all, even if he was not the true threat.
Quote
Captain (mafia-ally):
(Auto) Authority: You have command over the players with the roles 50% Inventor, Deflector, and Interference JOAT. If you do not use Command during the Day, it will be automatically used at Day end with random selections. If you die, the players bound to you lose the ability to act if you were Town and gain the ability to act freely if you were non-Town.
(Day) Command: You decide in advance what the Night-action primary targets of the players under your command must be. Each player affected by Authority will be made aware of your choice for them when the Night starts. (If a Mafia player is tied to your Authority, usage of their factional ability is exempt from this requirement. Furthermore, the players affected by Authority can still choose to take no action.)
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (5): Roden, ToonyMan, NJW2000, TricMagic, Vector
3 to hammer.
Day 3 has begun, and will end 10 PM Monday, Central time, or approximately 48 hours from now. (Or on a hammer)
Post by: webadict on October 23, 2021, 07:54:09 pm
*bleh*
Post by: TricMagic on October 23, 2021, 08:04:54 pm
Leaves NJW, Rodent, and... Toonyman.. On a tablet, but what roles did web claim?
Deflect, invent, and jail. ...
One is not like the others. We have a Goat. And they just killed the golden goose.
Post by: TricMagic on October 23, 2021, 08:09:47 pm
I'd suggest Vector, NJW, Toony, Roden. I'm both exempt and a natural suspect given I've used my sight up.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 23, 2021, 08:14:40 pm
And now a mally is dead.
PPE:
Toony, what order should we claim in? Who says what first can have a pretty big impact on the outcome of events.I think that's fine.
I'd suggest Vector, NJW, Toony, Roden. I'm both exempt and a natural suspect given I've used my sight up.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 23, 2021, 08:16:05 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 23, 2021, 08:17:55 pm
We are most likely at LYLO with 3-person hammer so if I see any goddamn red text before everyone posts, I'm going to lose it. I shouldn't have to say this but clearly it's an issue.
I'd suggest Vector, NJW, Toony, Roden. I'm both exempt and a natural suspect given I've used my sight up.I'd suggest a different order.
First things first, Roden is going to do some talking about his role. I don't think other people need to claim until then, although I do have some fascinating news.
Roden, baby, what on earth is an interference JOAT?
Hahahaha no. No it is not fine, we do not let the person who's been telling porkers about their role wait until the very end to claim.Toony, what order should we claim in? Who says what first can have a pretty big impact on the outcome of events.I think that's fine.
I'd suggest Vector, NJW, Toony, Roden. I'm both exempt and a natural suspect given I've used my sight up.
Why would that be fine?
It doesn't seem fine at all.
Post by: TricMagic on October 23, 2021, 08:23:20 pm
But that won't matter at all cause Webadict wouldn't have killed himself. Your role is key to this mystery. Vector's first because he's town and gives a big piece of the puzzle, you next to find out where the deflection was, and then Toony for who he targeted.
Post by: TricMagic on October 23, 2021, 08:24:56 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 23, 2021, 08:28:47 pm
I'm trying to figure out if NJW is genuinely mad or trying to distance from Roden.
Post by: TricMagic on October 23, 2021, 08:33:18 pm
As it stands, I or vector am going to die tonight, or we're both alive tomorrow. Really wish Vector hadn't done that though, so much daylight gone.
Post by: TricMagic on October 23, 2021, 08:36:52 pm
So yeah, going with my suggestion for who talks first, which Toony agreed with. And we'll go from there. Why did you deflect people night 1 off of webadict?
Post by: TricMagic on October 23, 2021, 08:43:43 pm
Seriously, I got out of bed to get on my laptop. If you are just gonna lurk over making a big post, I'll go back to bed and get you in the morning.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 23, 2021, 08:48:18 pm
Quite the response. But I'm quite interested in who you targeted. Roden is last cause by that point he'll have an excuse.What on earth? Why would we want him to have an excuse? The entire point of claiming is that it makes life hard on scum because they have to lie without knowing everything about the night.
But that won't matter at all cause Webadict wouldn't have killed himself. Your role is key to this mystery. Vector's first because he's town and gives a big piece of the puzzle, you next to find out where the deflection was, and then Toony for who he targeted.
Also, if you think Vec is town (which, if you're town, you have to), then you should want Vec to go last because then mafia have more difficulty making a convincing claim.
I mean, I'm not 100% on Vec being town, I guess, so I'm not saying they should go last. But yeah, generally speaking trustworthy folks at the back.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Massclaim (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Massclaim)
I'm not going to explain the whole "suspiscious people claim first" thing but it is a good mafia truism and you should read the article above if you haven't encountered it. This is how you get value from a massclaim.
Fascinating. I'm more of the opinion that you and Roden are scum, but Tric isn't completely clear yet.
So yeah, going with my suggestion for who talks first, which Toony agreed with. And we'll go from there. Why did you deflect people night 1 off of webadict?Two folks ain't a consensus in my book. Especially when at least one of them has got to be scum. But hey, I've just had a look at the standard JOAT on mafiascum, and yeah, not looking good for Roden.
Oh well, I'm pretty sure this is the correct play for me and I need to go to bed anyhow. Do read up on massclaims at some point, you seem to have the idea a bit backwards. I deflected Web onto Toony. So it's pretty likely Roden interfered with my deflection in order to be able to kill the captain. The question is then who pulled the trigger... Toony or Tric?
I mean, it's probably Toony. Don't think it can be Vec, and unlikely to be Tric. But I'll have to reread the thread to be sure.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 23, 2021, 08:49:37 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 23, 2021, 08:52:54 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 23, 2021, 08:55:10 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 24, 2021, 12:10:19 am
EuchreJack (5): ToonyMan, Roden, NJW2000, Maximum Spin, webadict
NJW2000 (1): EuchreJack
Maximum Spin (1): TricMagic
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): Vector
5 to hammer.
Comments:
1. NJW really wanted to vote off TricMagic for claiming Parity Cop, however they begrudgingly voted Jack when the wagon started up. Which Jack also points out before dying.
2. Webadict hammered Jack before the day was over, did not look accidental.
N1 claims:
Toony - inspected Vector, got a negative result
Roden - jailed Webadict, under orders from Webadict
TricMagic - inspected Vector and Maximum Spin, got a same alignment result
NJW2000 - deflected Webadict to Maximum Spin, under orders from Webadict
Vector - was told to give an invention to Webadict, refused
webadict - did nothing
Maximum Spin - did nothing
Nobody died.
Day 2 end of day:
Roden (1): Maximum Spin
Maximum Spin (4): ToonyMan, TricMagic, webadict, Vector
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (2): Roden, NJW2000
4 to hammer.
Comments:
1. Vector hammered early, it looked accidental.
2. Everybody was losing their mind during this day.
3. I saw that Maximum Spin was hypotheizing a Tric/Vector team, which is a big reason why I'm not instant voting NJW or Roden right now. Tric is playing very well if this is the case though.
N2 claims:
Toony - hasn't claimed
Roden - hasn't claimed
TricMagic - did nothing
NJW2000 - deflected Webadict to Toony, under orders from Webadict
Vector - hasn't claimed
Webadict died by gunshot.
Post by: Vector on October 24, 2021, 12:40:06 am
Post by: Roden on October 24, 2021, 12:59:58 am
Either way, with the info I have I'm pretty sure scum can't win and have to kill me tonight if there's still two more or we mis-elim. I don't care about the suggested order btw, popcorn format is better.
I was ordered to target Tric, which knowing that Web was mafia-aligned now, seems like TMI that Tric is town. He knew I was a JOAT and assumed I have blocking abilities (even though he claimed I was a Doctor lol, pretty sure that was supposed to be a crumb for scum to NK me), and he wouldn't have me directly role block the mafia team, so I'm fairly certain Tric is town.
I'm called an Interference JOAT but I'm mainly more protective. I have three abilities, all 1-shot: one Jailkeep, one Rolestop, and one Repel. Night 1 I used my Jailkeep, just like I claimed. Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.
I also received a 1-Shot 50% Watcher Invention from Vector, which, along with everything else we've learned, heavily implies that they're town since they notably didn't trust Web enough to give them an Invention. I have no idea why Web ordered Vector to target me, my best guess was that it would help him continue building trust with me and pocket me by giving me nice things lol.
Toony, you claim next. What did you do last night?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2021, 03:55:21 am
Why is Web dead and not me then? Your claim doesn't make sense. FoU stated at the end of D2 that redirects are told to the person being redirected.
Let's have a look at what they actually said then.
FallacyofUrist: Surely, people are not told if they've been redirected to an unexpected target?By default, people are always aware of who they end up targeting, at least in my games. This has been the case even in my earliest attempts at mafia-GM-ing. A variant ability could change this, however.
Given there is at least one investigative role in this game, it makes sense for there to be target-changing ability variants that don't tell people.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2021, 04:33:44 am
This is going to take some pretty careful rereading of the thread, I suspect. In the meantime, I would like to see Toony claim. Any useful cop results?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2021, 06:35:59 am
scum!Vector -> scum!Tric
scum!Vector -> either scum!Toony, because of the gunsmith cop result N1 (3 mafia not possible)
or one mafia with a kill and one without (unlikely)
or Vec gave away a gun N1, which would entail collusion with Webadict, which makes no sense because they shot him
Ok. Down to three...
@Roden: How exactly does a repel work? It doesn't seem to be on the mafiascum wiki.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 24, 2021, 07:14:50 am
Hi, just popping in to say that I'm here and ready to claim, although I agree that Toony and Roden should claim before me.I attempted to check NJW but my action failed.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 24, 2021, 07:28:25 am
1. Web had NJW deflect him and then NJW chose Toony
2. Web had Roden target Tric who picked Repel on NJW
3. Web had Vector target Roden who gave them a 50% watch
Alternatively, it could just be a mafia strongman. Which would be annoying as it doesn't let us thin out the possibilities, but does suggest the unlikely Tric/Vec scumteam, as with town!Toony there's some possibility of a follow-the-cop type situation and corresponding counter powers.True. This also follows Vector not trusting Webadict.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 24, 2021, 08:12:06 am
Vector/Tric - possible
Vector/Roden - not possible
Vector/NJW - not possible
Tric/Roden - possible
Tric/NJW - unlikely
Roden/NJW - possible
I have to decide between voting Tric or Roden.
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 08:49:07 am
One possibility is that Roden Repelled Webadict. As in bounced the ability back onto NJW, which would have made you give a self-result. Which isn't actually possible.
In this scenario, the team could be Vecter/Roden. As Roden ended up jailing Max. Who claimed action results first, web/spin or Roden?
For an NJW/Roden team, it's much simpler. Roden interfered with your result, then NJW killed webadict.
A Toony/Roden team is impossible, cause NJW would be telling the truth and the kill would have just bounced back to Toony. Roden's repel would have done that too.
One thing to note from my side, in all teamups Roden is Mafia. He's also literally the only interference role that web didn't claim true. Mafia-allies know who the mafia is, but the mafia don't.
I wanted you to claim last for a reason Roden, and that was I was wondering which of the three were your partner. And no one mentioned popcorn, which makes me think that's a scumslip. Your roleflip will reveal what the truth is, as the only way for webadict to die requires you to be mafia or them to have a strongarm.
Web's roleflip doesn't lie... Let me reread that.
(Day) Command: You decide in advance what the Night-action primary targets of the players under your command must be. Each player affected by Authority will be made aware of your choice for them when the Night starts. (If a Mafia player is tied to your Authority, usage of their factional ability is exempt from this requirement. Furthermore, the players affected by Authority can still choose to take no action.)
Not their role ability.. Or the gun. So in this case my argument is false. Mafia can't deviate from their chosen actions. Going to need to look at nightclaims on day 2 more closely.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2021, 09:12:36 am
A Toony/Roden team is impossible, cause NJW would be telling the truth and the kill would have just bounced back to Toony. Roden's repel would have done that too.A Roden/Toony team could have killed if they had a mafia strongman.
If that's the case, Roden did as he claimed and Toony made the kill, most likely. Although perhaps it would be weird for Roden not to pretend to have interfered with Toony's action in some way.
You're right that Roden couldn't have interfered with me, though, given Web was giving him orders and Web probably isn't twisted enough to block his own protection. Huh. Going to have to readjust my convictions. I really thought things would be clear by now, but nope.
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 09:29:49 am
Yarrr... I be a One-shot Roleblocker Captain. Me crew consists of a Jailer... Nah, I'll let you claim as ye want, but this be a lie (Roden, the ship "doctor"), a 50% Inventor (Vector, me best cannoneer), and a Deflector (NJW2000, me first mate).I find this funny for some reason. Roden, one question, why didn't you say anything yesterday about this?
Quote
If TricMagic is lying, it's TricMagic and one of ToonyMan or Maximum Spin.If Maximum Spin is Bulletproof, Roden is no longer clear.MS is a Commuter.Vector and Maximum Spin are a possible pairing.Debunked hard, but Vector was the one to hammer. Roden/Vector? Web wouldn't have died if web was lying about targeting himself for Vector's invention.
If NJW2000 is lying, they're fucking galaxy brain Mafia, and we lose. Meh.
It's possible Maximum Spin was roleblocked by Roden. I think thier role does that? This comes after, and really should have been a big sign something was up. But the day ended way too quick.
So, if I accept Tric is Town, which is very likely, then the Mafia team is either Vector and Maximum Spin OR ToonyMan and one of TricMagic/NJW2000/Roden. Technically, Tric can be Mafia with pretty much anyone, but that's a tough pill to swallow.On this bit. I am pretty sure we can rule out Vector completely in this scenario. Web wouldn't have the needed info on his own. And if he did, I doubt he would have died.
If Vector/MS, then either MS did the kill and got blocked, or Vector did the kill and targeted me (They wouldn't do that, would they??? :()
If ToonyMan is Mafia, then... A lot of factors are unsure.
If Roden is Mafia, then who the fuck is their partner?? It has to be ToonyMan... or like, maybe NJW2000??
We could vote out one of Vector or Max to test them and then go into tomorrow. Max hasn't claimed, so that lends credit to them being scum, and Vector's lack of presence is also scummy. Additionally, me being attacked would make sense from their perspective because I soft-claimed to Vector yesterday, and they would've picked up on that, so their goal was to kill the Captain and remove all the power from Town.
I'm pretty sure that's what happened... Which would be really unfortunate if true, for so many reasons.
So, under no circumstances is Vector not Town. Web didn't know what interference Roden had. We do need Vector's claim though.
So, in this circumstance it's either Toony, NJW, or Roden.
... Roden repelled me. Which would have bounced a gunshot right back at Web. Ugh... Would deflection shift it to Toony, or would it have just.
What a tangled mess.
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 09:41:23 am
Roden, you never posted Day 2! As a result, we don't know who you targeted night 1. Web never let it slip either. We just assumed you blocked the kill/jailkept Maxspin.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2021, 09:53:14 am
Let's remember Toony and Vector were on the last lolhammer. I don't think the two of them can be scum but if Vector's town they hammered accidentally yesterday, so we really can't rely on them not to hand the game over with a careless vote. I don't entirely trust you or toony here, and I don't think you trust Toony or me, so you should unvote. Silly as this game has been, an opportunistic hammer would be a terrible ending.
Also, while I still have a fairly strong belief he's scum, Roden posted D2. Not a lot, but something. So no quick answer there, sadly.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=128804;area=showposts;start=0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=128804;area=showposts;start=0)
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 10:34:36 am
Tric - please stay off red text until everyone's certain on their choice.
Let's remember Toony and Vector were on the last lolhammer. I don't think the two of them can be scum but if Vector's town they hammered accidentally yesterday, so we really can't rely on them not to hand the game over with a careless vote. I don't entirely trust you or toony here, and I don't think you trust Toony or me, so you should unvote. Silly as this game has been, an opportunistic hammer would be a terrible ending.
Also, while I still have a fairly strong belief he's scum, Roden posted D2. Not a lot, but something. So no quick answer there, sadly.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=128804;area=showposts;start=0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=128804;area=showposts;start=0)
That was glowtext, not redtext. Also I was waiting for him to point that out, not for you to defend him.
You also didn't even bother to quote it.
Wait, no, the post below the one I found does say it. Dam.
I did use glowtext rather than redtext though. So that shouldn't count, it was just emphasis.
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 10:35:16 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2021, 10:39:56 am
Post by: Roden on October 24, 2021, 02:12:41 pm
I did.Yarrr... I be a One-shot Roleblocker Captain. Me crew consists of a Jailer... Nah, I'll let you claim as ye want, but this be a lie (Roden, the ship "doctor"), a 50% Inventor (Vector, me best cannoneer), and a Deflector (NJW2000, me first mate).I find this funny for some reason. Roden, one question, why didn't you say anything yesterday about this?
Web knows my role name and has a general understanding of what it is. He's not saying it because it would only give the mafia team more information.___
So, we have a bit of a problem here, Tric and Vector. Toony and NJW both think I'm scum. They haven't really given a reason as to why I'm scum, but alright, they both suspect me.
...Why don't they suspect each other? They both have each other as a possible pairing with me, but they aren't actually considering that I could be town and the other the true scum. We've had two days in a row where we thought the scum team was obvious, but then turned out to be wrong, yet they both think third time's the charm and want to vote who they think is the obvious choice again?
Another problem with this theory that I'm scum is that killing Web is non-sensical from my point of view. You can see that I had a clear progression in my posts where I went from not trusting Web and voting him, to getting to the point where I claimed that not protecting Web would be scummy. Why would I kill him if I trusted him? Furthermore, why would I kill him at all if he's the Captain? If he dies and he's town, I lose my abilities. If he's scum, I keep my abilities but lose an ally. It's a lose-lose scenario for me, I have zero reason to ever kill him, especially since it's clear that I did trust him.
Now, look at what NJW and Toony are claiming. NJW says he Deflected Web onto Toony, yet Web still died. We know his night action claim is false now, because even if a Strongman were in the game it doesn't get around redirection according to the wiki. So how did Web die? Maybe I role blocked NJW?
...Except Toony already claimed his action failed when trying to investigate NJW. And we know Web lied about being a Roleblocker because it wasn't in his flip.
Tric could NOT have affected NJW because of my Repel.
Vector could NOT have affected either Toony or NJW since they are a confirmed Inventor and I'm claiming I received a gift, thus their night action is accounted for.
So why did Toony's and NJW's night actions not work? And why don't they suspect each other?
Likelihoods:This especially looks awful, seeing as Toony had the most to gain from disabling all of the remaining roles in the game if he'd happened to be town.
Vector/Tric - possible
Vector/Roden - not possible
Vector/NJW - not possible
Tric/Roden - possible
Tric/NJW - unlikely
Roden/NJW - possible
I have to decide between voting Tric or Roden.
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 03:00:10 pm
At the moment, we think there are two mafia and 1 mafia ally. But what would happen then?
Parity, JOAT, Bodyguard, Deflector, Gunsmith, Inventor, Captain, Commuter.
Tric, Roden, Jack, NJW, Toony, Vector, Web, Max.
If we split it, we can conclude the Bodyguard would be useless in this scenario of 3 scum. Likewise, Gunsmith, Parity, and Inventor are also useless to town N1. Deflector likewise has an issue. And both JOAT and Deflector were under control of an ally. Therefore we would normally lose on D2, having started on MYLO. The only town role that can prevent a kill is Commuter.
So, what if it isn't true? The Two Mafia and 1 Ally don't actually exist. Rather, web's actions can lead to a conclusion that there is only 1 Mafia. Redirecting things into Max would be a good test and could prove to setup a lynch if it failed. But it's possible Mafia don't have a normal kill. But no, the only one who could have created a gun would be Vector, and his action is accounted for. So for this to be TRUE, Mafia would need a Frame action.
So Vector/? would have targeted Webadict, which bounced their framejob onto Maxspin. But his role flipped Town. -/\-
Therefore, there is no circumstance that Vector would by Mafia.
3 Suspects (https://youtu.be/XNxyxsHd6vY)
Roden, the JOAT with only 3 abilities. Toony, the Man with a failed result. and NJW, the Deflector who protected Web.
Roden+NJW. Roden would have blocked Toony, while Toony did the kill.
Roden+Toony: Repel(an unknown (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mirror)ability no longer). would have been used on Webadict, reflecting the deflection target onto NJW. Toony then did the kill, and claimed failed result. This one would have a flaw in how actions resolved.
Toony+NJW: Kill Webadict, then set up falseclaims. Without any trackers, they would be clear.
Vector+NJW: Not possible. Toony's result wouldn't fail.
Vector+Toony: Also not possible. The Kill would have been deflected.
N1 Vector... If web lied about what he ordered vector to do, Web wouldn't have died. If Vector did give a gun to web, it would have bounced back at him. This might bypass deflection, but unlikely. And Vector would have to give one to a wildcard in the first place.
Self-framing as a mafia ability is also a bit scuffed.
So right now, these 3 possibilities exist if there are two mafia. If there is but 1, it would be NJW outside of Vector being a godfather type.
Ironically, that leads back to only one possible outcome for today, lynching Roden. His flip gives us all the information we need to crack things. Unless of course the pairing is Toony+NJW, but we can't crack that pairing mechanically.
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 03:02:51 pm
Ima try this. As the only confirmed town, he's likely the best suited to cracking things. I'm inclined to believe it's NJW and Roden interfered with the gunsmith. And having limited shots to kill people makes it less flippy. They might only have 1.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2021, 03:09:48 pm
A few points, briefly as I'm busy tonight.
Quote
NJW says he Deflected Web onto Toony, yet Web still died. We know his night action claim is false now, because even if a Strongman were in the game it doesn't get around redirection according to the wiki.Nope. Maybe you can cherrypick a quote from somewhere that supports your statement, but so can I. Furthermore, any strongman or strongman equivalent put in the game would be there to get around my deflection power, because of how potentially gamebreaking powers like that are, so this is nonsense. Anyhoo, a strongman is only one theory. You have a bunch of interference roles, so perhaps there's an explanation there.
Quote
So why did Toony's and NJW's night actions not work?I don't know why my deflection let a kill through, but there are two mafia here so there's a whole lot I don't know. FoU cooks some pretty weird setups.
Quote
And why don't they suspect each other?Clearly untrue if you actually read my posts. Unless you assume I'm lying through our teeth, in which case you've already assumed I'm mafia, so don't need to consider this. Last person to misread my posts this badly was Webadict.
Quote
Another problem with this theory that I'm scum is that killing Web is non-sensical from my point of view. You can see that I had a clear progression in my posts where I went from not trusting Web and voting him, to getting to the point where I claimed that not protecting Web would be scummy. Why would I kill him if I trusted him? Furthermore, why would I kill him at all if he's the Captain? If he dies and he's town, I lose my abilities. If he's scum, I keep my abilities but lose an ally. It's a lose-lose scenario for me, I have zero reason to ever kill him, especially since it's clear that I did trust him.Your posts do not reflect your intentions if you're scum, so that's irrelevant. If you thought Web was town, according to your own claim you'd be trading a single one-shot ability to hamstring a deflector and an inventor, and kill a one-shot roleblocker... while you could still perform a kill at night. The trade would be worthwhile even if you didn't have a nightkill.
Quote
Tric could NOT have affected NJW because of my Repel.Tell me what a repel is! I can't find it on mafiascum.
I was honestly considering Tric/Toony before this but sheesh... That post was not worthy of Town!Roden. Currently this looks like distancing from Toony, but I'll try to keep an open mind. Not voting yet, this may just be the unfortunate breakdown of a usually calm and sanguine town player. Tric/Vector still needs another look too, can't be sure Vec hasn't been playing a very odd line due to absence. Is there a world in which Vector gave Web a gun and he somehow ended up shooting himself?
Hold on...
Vector: in this post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8323010#msg8323010), you said that Web ordered you to give him an invention. He also ordered me to deflect from him to a person of my own choosing. Did that seem at all odd to you?
Didn't have time to discuss this D2 because of the hammer, but N2 I had "WEB HANDS OUT RANDOM GUNS?" written in big letters in my notes. Didn't pursue it immediately because he died, but I think this merits some discussion. Would be keen to hear people's thoughts on this.
--
Haven't had time to go through Tric's last two posts, he ninja'd me, but will pick through it at some point.
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 03:16:18 pm
Post by: Vector on October 24, 2021, 04:27:25 pm
I have three 50-50 inventions: gun, bulletproof, voyeur. The last of these gives the gist of categories of actions performed on the target, e.g. "this target was inspected," "this target was protected," etc. All three inventions have a 50-50 chance to fail. I have to cycle through all three inventions before I can give the same one twice.
I'm fairly confident that ToonyMan is on the scumteam. Long post coming up.
Post by: Vector on October 24, 2021, 04:48:22 pm
I mean, that's assuming the Captain is Mafia, Tric.
But who would ever make that assumption...?
Good to know. This means I will get a positive result on Tric if I investigate them. I think Tric is being honest here which means they're likely town.Oh, is that what we're doing? Then I will claim to have no gun at all. I'm clean! But that doesn't matter because you won't believe me regardless, and I'd probably claim either way as Mafia, so it's up to you to believe my outlandish claims.
The beauty of it all is that I actually don't have to kill you if I'm lying, because you won't investigate me at all. Even when I write this, I would bet that you wouldn't waste your inspection on me. Partially because I don't believe you're actually a Gunsmith, but also partially because I think you think I'm not lying.
Also true, if I were the Captain, I'd be the greatest Captain of all time. But, instead, I'm a *deep breath* Combined Activated Cop Enabler Doctor (Or, CACED, for short.) When I perform my Doctoring, I also enable Cop inspects. Which is why I'm fairly certain I'll be killed tonight, and also why I'm willing to bet at least one of the Cop claims is legit.
We'll now be able to determine if the Captain is, in fact, Mafia.
Webadict starts repeatedly saying "Toony might be scum" or that he is lying, but then it never goes anywhere in terms of hunting.
Look in particular at the weird ending of this post and what Web says about Toony and EuchreJack, in light of what happens at the end of D1:
Oh man, I missed this. You guys are just so easy. No wonder Tric never wins as Mafia.
So, Tric is probably Town because he's obviously stupid. Roden might be Town, but he'll be an absolute drag on the Town if he is, which is unfortunate. Vector is probably Mafia. ToonyMan is... Maybe Town. It wouldn't matter if he's Mafia because he won't be dying tonight regardless. Waiting on EuchreJack, but if Vector is Mafia like I think they are, then it's not EJ based on the Gambler's Fallacy, which would, in fact, leave it as either NJW2000 or Maximum Spin as the last Mafia. NJW2000 is not out of meta, so I'd be willing to leave them as neutral, and thus, it's Maximum Spin and Vector.
More breadcrumbing:
On the contrary, I'm trying to bait the kill, and if I succeed, I will be dead.
"We" is Toony and I, clearly.Anyway, should we be focusing Maximum Spin or Vector?Who is "we" here?On the contrary, I'm trying to bait the kill, and if I succeed, I will be dead.I get that the meme shit and insulting people might just be how you play RVS, but if you've come around to "my claim was lying actually aha", what were your last nineteen posts meant to accomplish for town?
[...]Webadict, buddying me and telling us you'll be dead N1 so we don't vote you today. Roll mafia yet again?Nope. I rolled... Wait, hold on, Town isn't spelled with an M!
[...]
Is this the part where I start actually trying, or should I just wait until it's socially acceptable to vote myself like you in a desperate attempt at... I don't know if that sentence has an ending. Anyway, I'll still adamantly point at Vector and Maximum Spin as top suspects, but I suppose it's easier to just defenestrate the emperor, and then find the actual bad guys when you know he's on your side.
Although to be fair Web feels like they're lying out of their ass which mucks things up, but whatever.I lie about a lot of things because I'm actually sending secret messages to the captain.
[...]
It's pretty easy to do whatever you want when you're not constrained by things like alignment or scumbuddies. I'm free as Town.
Toony starts responding to Web:
@Webadict:...Sure, got it.Although to be fair Web feels like they're lying out of their ass which mucks things up, but whatever.I lie about a lot of things because I'm actually sending secret messages to the captain.
[...]
Therefore I see NJW and Web in a better light than my last reads, besides getting a better feel from Web after rereading.
I also don't think you're a Gunsmith, though, but that okay. It's a good deflection, and I like it. In any case, I'll call you Town, and continue on my way.If you don't believe me then why am I town?
@ToonyMan: I never said you were Town. Only that I would call you Town. There's a subtle difference.
Toony and Web start coordinating kills and night actions in the thread:
I'm not moving off Jack.
@Toony: Let's goooooo. EuchreJack
Also, Mafia, plz no kill, I'll do whatever you want, just no kill plz. Thx.
Also, Mafia, plz no kill, I'll do whatever you want, just no kill plz. Thx.Lol
It continues D2:
Right. I checked Vector and it was negative so no guns on them at least.Yarrrr, mateys. Why'n' we let ol' Toony pick who walks the plank today... wouldn'ye say that be more'n fair?
So, ToonyMan, who be yer most suspicious? Ye can take yer time if'n ya want.
LolololYe seasick scallion, I still think yer a lyin' landlubber!
I just can't prove it.
So, if I accept Tric is Town, which is very likely, then the Mafia team is either Vector and Maximum Spin OR ToonyMan and one of TricMagic/NJW2000/Roden. Technically, Tric can be Mafia with pretty much anyone, but that's a tough pill to swallow.
If Vector/MS, then either MS did the kill and got blocked, or Vector did the kill and targeted me (They wouldn't do that, would they??? :()
If ToonyMan is Mafia, then... A lot of factors are unsure.
If Roden is Mafia, then who the fuck is their partner?? It has to be ToonyMan... or like, maybe NJW2000??
We could vote out one of Vector or Max to test them and then go into tomorrow. Max hasn't claimed, so that lends credit to them being scum, and Vector's lack of presence is also scummy. Additionally, me being attacked would make sense from their perspective because I soft-claimed to Vector yesterday, and they would've picked up on that, so their goal was to kill the Captain and remove all the power from Town.
I'm pretty sure that's what happened... Which would be really unfortunate if true, for so many reasons.
Thanks for the insight Web, you're town in my book right there with ol' Roden and Tric.
I really do think Tric just straight up caught the mafia team which is fucking hilarious, so I'll vote Maximum Spin.
Post by: Vector on October 24, 2021, 04:50:43 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 24, 2021, 05:05:12 pm
Post by: Roden on October 24, 2021, 05:51:24 pm
Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.It's essentially a one-way target-specific role block.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 24, 2021, 07:38:22 pm
So, we have a bit of a problem here, Tric and Vector. Toony and NJW both think I'm scum. They haven't really given a reason as to why I'm scum, but alright, they both suspect me.I think you're both scum dude. I wouldn't say Day 1 was obvious, I was wrong about Jack and the thread had been swaying between Max and Web. And for Day 2 we had an alignment check from Tric on the top two most suspicious players at the time.
...Why don't they suspect each other? They both have each other as a possible pairing with me, but they aren't actually considering that I could be town and the other the true scum. We've had two days in a row where we thought the scum team was obvious, but then turned out to be wrong, yet they both think third time's the charm and want to vote who they think is the obvious choice again?
So why did Toony's and NJW's night actions not work? And why don't they suspect each other?I do suspect NJW! I think he's distancing from you!!
If Web was my ally why would I fuck myself by killing him?? How would I have killed him unless I'm working with NJW??Likelihoods:This especially looks awful, seeing as Toony had the most to gain from disabling all of the remaining roles in the game if he'd happened to be town.
Vector/Tric - possible
Vector/Roden - not possible
Vector/NJW - not possible
Tric/Roden - possible
Tric/NJW - unlikely
Roden/NJW - possible
I have to decide between voting Tric or Roden.
Roden, between the two of you there's a higher probability you're mafia over NJW. This is the only reason why I would vote you over NJW.
Web hid info about your role. He forced Vector to give you stuff or do nothing at all. Which worked since Vector did seem to comply.
@Vector:
case about me and Web interacting in-threadMe and Web have played a lot of games together. We mess around. I try to get a feel if they're town or not. Web tries to get a feel if I'm town or not. We're pretty good at figuring each other out.
When we're both town anyway.
Unfortunately, I am much worse at this game when Web is mafia (or mafia-ally in this case).
On Day 1 when Web started making strange posts I thought he was fishing, trying to bait people, and it made me suspicious. This must be exactly what he wanted. So like the scrub I am when I face him I fell for it. Every time I play this guy and he's mafia and I'm town he ALWAYS out mindgames me.
I got hooked and tried poking, but he went crazier and people started dogpiling him. It felt just like town!Web in something like Mostly Vanilla Mafia 2 where he railed into ShadowDUMP and almost got himself lynched for being an asshole. It was just like that during Day 1! That's why it bothered me. But he was fucking with me the whole time.
By Day 2 I fully believed he was town. He tricked me, again, just like in Supernatural 10 or Tric's Matrix mafia.
Roden claims I killed Web to disable the town roles, but this claim is contradicted by the evidence you have found Vector. If I was corresponding with Web in-thread, why would I fuck myself by killing him?? Does that make sense?? Not only does this not make sense motivation-wise, but there's a mechanical reason this isn't possible: NJW claims they deflected Web to me! NJW has hypothesized a mafia strongman, but that can't beat redirections!
Vector. I wasn't sure about you. That's why I checked you first. Tric is clearing you as well and I believe in my Tric read the most. So I trust the two of you. I think NJW and Roden are both fucking with me. I am going to reread this entire round, figure it out, and post my findings with a vote before this day is over. I cannot let town get its first defeat.
NJW is more likely to have killed Webadict while Roden fucked with me last night, so in this case we should actually vote NJW first since they're definitely a killer, but I will look into it more.
Post by: TricMagic on October 24, 2021, 07:48:08 pm
This especially looks awful, seeing as Toony had the most to gain from disabling all of the remaining roles in the game if he'd happened to be town.Question, when was it brought up that the captain's death would disable the remaining rolls? And what would he gain from it any other mafia wouldnt'?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 24, 2021, 09:29:23 pm
You had me up to voting NJW first. They are equally dangerous. But Roden's flip gives a lot of info for day 3. I'm likely to end up dead, or Vector's going to end up dead. Not that either matters given how we'll know exactly what happened.Okay, how about this: I'll go through this round and pick out everything I see on rereading. I'm busy tonight, but I'll be good tomorrow for us to crack this.
After that Tric I give you my vote. Who you vote I'll vote. Vector suspects me because of Web, but I have to convince them as well or else it's over. I was thinking Vector could make you a gun, but NJW could deflect it to themselves if they're alive.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2021, 09:36:57 pm
-Comes across as desperate, which is not Town!Toony in my experience. Could be that he thinks Vector and Web are better than him though, and this is genuine fear.
Bleh. Pretty much completely sure it can't be a Tric/Vector team at this point, would be incredible for both mafia to be off the D1 wagon if even I had the brains to suspect that Jack was a poor lynch idea. Currently buying into the Toony/Roden possibility pretty hard. For one thing, they've been townreading one another hard all game, only to swing now.
Then again... shenanigans with a gun. Not sure if I think mafia started with a gun... jesus christ. The nonsense and confusion this game is really starting to wear on me.
Still trying to figure out what the hell was going on last night. Considering the possibility of one-shot bus drive on Roden - would fit the interference JOAT, comes before most things in Natural Action Resolution on the wiki, and potentially only one target would be chosen by Web. Of course, that would need to either involve my deflection or mafia not being sure Web was their ally.
A Drive swapping Toony and Web followed by a deflection from me would have yielded a situation where anything that was going for Web or Toony hit... web. This either means mafia genuinely planned for Web to die or tried to kill toony... which clears toony. Which makes the team... idk, Roden and Tric? High chaos but wouldn't expect those two to keep going so long necessarily...
If I was corresponding with Web in-thread, why would I fuck myself by killing him?? Does that make sense??
You dumb fucks.If you're scum, Web is positing a psychological explanation here.
*bleh*
@Vector: got a question here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8323496#msg8323496)about Web's supposed scheme to hand out guns like halloween candy. Any thoughts? Notice the issue at the time? I didn't until N2, but D2 was rather short from my perspective.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 24, 2021, 09:47:17 pm
Post by: Vector on October 24, 2021, 11:44:34 pm
@Vector: got a question here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8323496#msg8323496)about Web's supposed scheme to hand out guns like halloween candy. Any thoughts? Notice the issue at the time? I didn't until N2, but D2 was rather short from my perspective.
I think it's important to note that I have stuff other than guns, because that changes the situation somewhat. He's not giving out guns, he's forcing people to action him and one of the actions could potentially involve a gun.
Webadict was definitely fishing for his partner and among other things, I'm pretty sure he thought the partner was one of me, Toony, and Roden. I read the thread very carefully and we were the three that he kept going "maayyyyybe they're scum but ... let's go kill MaximumSpin!" or whatever. The thing that clinched Toony for me personally was the interactions back toward Web.
Think about it from this perspective: Web is trying to find out who's on his team. He forces everyone that he can to action him and then says: BUT DON'T NK ME SERIOUSLY GUYS. I think that his behavior makes sense in terms of trying to draw out actual townies vs. the scumteam. He breadcrumbs as hard as he can that he's scum and the captain and then tries to get some more definitive data than just the fuzzy day game from his team.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 02:05:36 am
I'm pretty busy right now, but just let me say, Roden, that I wasn't 100% on you being scum before this post. Now I'm a lot closer.What? What are you referencing with cherrypicking?
A few points, briefly as I'm busy tonight.QuoteNJW says he Deflected Web onto Toony, yet Web still died. We know his night action claim is false now, because even if a Strongman were in the game it doesn't get around redirection according to the wiki.Nope. Maybe you can cherrypick a quote from somewhere that supports your statement, but so can I. Furthermore, any strongman or strongman equivalent put in the game would be there to get around my deflection power, because of how potentially gamebreaking powers like that are, so this is nonsense. Anyhoo, a strongman is only one theory. You have a bunch of interference roles, so perhaps there's an explanation there.
Your ability is clearly balanced around the fact a Captain was ordering you around, there's no reason to further reduce your power. The fact that I'm a JOAT proves I didn't role block you because it's essentially proven I already used my 1-shot Jailkeep on Night 1.
How did I get the kill if I role blocked you anyway? I would have to be Multitasking and Web's flip proves that I'm not. The fact that there was no kill Night 1 either also proves that I'm not Multitasking, since I wouldn't have tried to NK Web while also Jailing him, I would have just targeted a Cop claim. Toony also claims he got no result on you, so what exactly did I do to you if you're claiming that I role blocked you?
Furthermore, your theory for me being the killer here just, doesn't make sense if you think about what had to have happened.
Web orders you to Deflect him.
Web orders me to target you.
I then kill Web even though it's a lose-lose outcome for me.
Is this what you truly believe to be Web's master plan...?
Uh, is this a TMI slip? What makes you think we have two mafia and an ally?QuoteSo why did Toony's and NJW's night actions not work?I don't know why my deflection let a kill through, but there are two mafia here so there's a whole lot I don't know. FoU cooks some pretty weird setups.
Clearly untrue...yet you've repeatedly said over and over that you think I'm mafia and how badly this looks for me. Which I'm still not sure why you think I look bad? If you're claiming solely off of my role name that I look scummy, you're completely ignoring how town has had scummy looking roles and mafia townie looking roles in past rounds.QuoteAnd why don't they suspect each other?Clearly untrue if you actually read my posts. Unless you assume I'm lying through our teeth, in which case you've already assumed I'm mafia, so don't need to consider this. Last person to misread my posts this badly was Webadict.
Besides that, you say Toony is possibly my partner, but you only want to vote me. You're showing so little paranoia towards Toony and it's pretty uncharacteristic of you. Especially since you were town reading me before today.
I'm sorry, what? How do posts not reflect intentions? That's literally how you're supposed to read people, wtf.QuoteAnother problem with this theory that I'm scum is that killing Web is non-sensical from my point of view. You can see that I had a clear progression in my posts where I went from not trusting Web and voting him, to getting to the point where I claimed that not protecting Web would be scummy. Why would I kill him if I trusted him? Furthermore, why would I kill him at all if he's the Captain? If he dies and he's town, I lose my abilities. If he's scum, I keep my abilities but lose an ally. It's a lose-lose scenario for me, I have zero reason to ever kill him, especially since it's clear that I did trust him.Your posts do not reflect your intentions if you're scum, so that's irrelevant. If you thought Web was town, according to your own claim you'd be trading a single one-shot ability to hamstring a deflector and an inventor, and kill a one-shot roleblocker... while you could still perform a kill at night. The trade would be worthwhile even if you didn't have a nightkill.
Also that trade is crazy weighted against me no matter Web's alignment, wtf are you talking about? You just claimed Web could force the Captain subordinates to act in a way to benefits me as mafia, so why would I kill him? The more you try to push me here, the less your accusation makes sense.
I did. And you're accusing me of not reading your posts, lol.QuoteTric could NOT have affected NJW because of my Repel.Tell me what a repel is! I can't find it on mafiascum.
I was honestly considering Tric/Toony before this but sheesh... That post was not worthy of Town!Roden. Currently this looks like distancing from Toony, but I'll try to keep an open mind. Not voting yet, this may just be the unfortunate breakdown of a usually calm and sanguine town player. Tric/Vector still needs another look too, can't be sure Vec hasn't been playing a very odd line due to absence. Is there a world in which Vector gave Web a gun and he somehow ended up shooting himself????
In what universe have I been playing calm and sanguine in these games? Also you're accusing me of distancing from Toony, but then you just distanced from him now.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 02:15:41 am
@Roden:Then vote NJW.So, we have a bit of a problem here, Tric and Vector. Toony and NJW both think I'm scum. They haven't really given a reason as to why I'm scum, but alright, they both suspect me.I think you're both scum dude. I wouldn't say Day 1 was obvious, I was wrong about Jack and the thread had been swaying between Max and Web. And for Day 2 we had an alignment check from Tric on the top two most suspicious players at the time.
...Why don't they suspect each other? They both have each other as a possible pairing with me, but they aren't actually considering that I could be town and the other the true scum. We've had two days in a row where we thought the scum team was obvious, but then turned out to be wrong, yet they both think third time's the charm and want to vote who they think is the obvious choice again?
So you're both accusing me of distancing from the other and also that the other is distancing from me. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? You're both fake distancing from me lol.So why did Toony's and NJW's night actions not work? And why don't they suspect each other?I do suspect NJW! I think he's distancing from you!!
Mafia team doesn't know who the ally is. And I do think both of you being the mafia team is a legitimate possibility, but I think between the two of you that NJW is more likely to be mafia in the case of a 1 mafia + one ally set up.If Web was my ally why would I fuck myself by killing him?? How would I have killed him unless I'm working with NJW??Likelihoods:This especially looks awful, seeing as Toony had the most to gain from disabling all of the remaining roles in the game if he'd happened to be town.
Vector/Tric - possible
Vector/Roden - not possible
Vector/NJW - not possible
Tric/Roden - possible
Tric/NJW - unlikely
Roden/NJW - possible
I have to decide between voting Tric or Roden.
Roden, between the two of you there's a higher probability you're mafia over NJW. This is the only reason why I would vote you over NJW.What makes me have a higher probability of being mafia over NJW?
Web hid info about your role. He forced Vector to give you stuff or do nothing at all. Which worked since Vector did seem to comply.
Web hiding info about my role doesn't make me scum. Mafia can lie about town, you know this.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 02:31:29 am
Say the set up is 2 mafia + 1 ally. I target Web and Jail him, as ordered. This leaves my scum buddy free to perform the NK, and they know not to target Web because I let them know I'm Jailing him. Yet nobody dies.
Scenario 2. 1 mafia + 1 ally. I would have to have Multitasking as a passive in order to kill and follow my orders. I know I'm Jailing Web, so I would target somebody else. Yet, nobody dies.
Finally, why do I ever kill Web when Vector is confirmed to be aligned with Town due to Tric's Parity check? Why risk killing a potential ally? Why not endgame the town Night 1? Why not kill a Cop claim who might check me and out me as mafia?
Just look at the facts, and you know I can't be mafia. It has to be either NJW, Toony, or both of them, and town wins by voting there no matter what.
NJW
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 02:36:17 am
You had me up to voting NJW first. They are equally dangerous. But Roden's flip gives a lot of info for day 3. I'm likely to end up dead, or Vector's going to end up dead. Not that either matters given how we'll know exactly what happened.Somebody posted the wiki link for it. Toony being one of the few players not restricted by a Captain and still getting to keep his ability regardless of Web's alignment seems like a pretty obvious benefit.This especially looks awful, seeing as Toony had the most to gain from disabling all of the remaining roles in the game if he'd happened to be town.Question, when was it brought up that the captain's death would disable the remaining rolls? And what would he gain from it any other mafia wouldnt'?
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 08:22:29 am
I already gave Vector my vote though. So now Vector has 3 votes.You had me up to voting NJW first. They are equally dangerous. But Roden's flip gives a lot of info for day 3. I'm likely to end up dead, or Vector's going to end up dead. Not that either matters given how we'll know exactly what happened.Okay, how about this: I'll go through this round and pick out everything I see on rereading. I'm busy tonight, but I'll be good tomorrow for us to crack this.
After that Tric I give you my vote. Who you vote I'll vote. Vector suspects me because of Web, but I have to convince them as well or else it's over. I was thinking Vector could make you a gun, but NJW could deflect it to themselves if they're alive.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 08:32:56 am
snipK, this is fun. To address the Roden/TricMagic team, we would definitely have to have learned from our previous mistakes.
However, the clencher is you're not suspecting a Roden/Toony team here. You're actively suspecting the less likely option. Despite the fact Roden is the most likely option for web to have died. Roden would have to actively be lying to have messed with Toony/Web as well. Which isn't townie at all. In every case but a NJW/Toony team, Roden is the mafia. And as soon as he flips, you will be exposed as well. Which is why him flipping is game over for you.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 08:34:18 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 25, 2021, 09:26:06 am
snipK, this is fun. To address the Roden/TricMagic team, we would definitely have to have learned from our previous mistakes.
However, the clencher is you're not suspecting a Roden/Toony team here. You're actively suspecting the less likely option. Despite the fact Roden is the most likely option for web to have died. Roden would have to actively be lying to have messed with Toony/Web as well. Which isn't townie at all. In every case but a NJW/Toony team, Roden is the mafia. And as soon as he flips, you will be exposed as well. Which is why him flipping is game over for you.
Quote from: NJW2000, above
Currently buying into the Toony/Roden possibility pretty hard.Clincher. And no, I do not think Roden is town. I pretty much say that in the exact post you quoted, so I don't know what's going on there. Breakdown of communication, I guess. Just because I mention the possibility that you're scum doesn't mean I think it's the most likely one. Please read carefully.
The hell with trying to solve this game. There's a massive volume of incomplete and unreliable information to deal with here. I'd have to singlehandedly figure out why the night was so screwy just to clear my name, with an insanely wide space of possible actions and fakeclaims in thread. Vector hammers and potentially gives out guns, but them being scum appears to implicate like two other people, so I have to work out how I feel about that. Tric is Tric. FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.
Roden and Toony are dodgy as all get out and also defend/townread one another hard early on, which is pretty much in their meta. Roden is furiously attacking me in a way that comes across as careless and desperate, while Toony may have been communicating in thread with Wuba. They also completely failed to read EuchreJack correctly if town, which I'm just not sure Toony would do, and are buddying Tric.
Tric feels fairly town, I guess - if they're scum, then some strong players like Toony or Vec must have been misreading them this game, as they can't all three be scum. Vector isn't as aggressively dismissive as they usually are as mafia, although I guess I can't expect to read them in a game they're putting consistent effort into. An accidental hammer doesn't seem like scum!Vector playstyle. So I'm reasonably happy with these two as townreads. Well played if they're scum, I guess.
So yeah, I'll be voting Toony or Roden, whoever is more likely. Not giving anyone my vote per se, but two votes on either of them and I'll be very happy to make it three once the day gets closer to the end.
Spoiler: replies to Roden, probably pointless even in the marginal case he's town (click to show/hide)
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 11:34:24 am
Also, if both of you agree it's Roden, why not vote Roden?
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 11:44:03 am
You had me up to voting NJW first. They are equally dangerous. But Roden's flip gives a lot of info for day 3. I'm likely to end up dead, or Vector's going to end up dead. Not that either matters given how we'll know exactly what happened.Okay, how about this: I'll go through this round and pick out everything I see on rereading. I'm busy tonight, but I'll be good tomorrow for us to crack this.
I'm looking forward to your reread.
... Where is everyone? Pretty sure the day ends tonight.
I'm planning to vote Toonyman in a few hours. I agree that Roden is fumbling a bit but:
If there's a 2P scumteam, I strongly believe that Toony is on it.
I don't believe that Tric is scum. I don't believe that the team could possibly be Roden/NJW.
If there is a 1P scumteam, this probably isn't LaunchLO.
Toony is more dangerous and slippery as scum than either of NJW and Roden. Roden remains my #2 pick.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 11:46:54 am
Post by: ToonyMan on October 25, 2021, 12:11:35 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 25, 2021, 12:20:35 pm
Vector even if you think I'm more dangerous as a player we'll lose if NJW and Roden are both mafia.
It's very unlikely this game is only one mafia and one ally.
1. N1 didn't have a discernible kill because Max didn't use his commute, why? The only death at night has been an ally. This is indicative that mafia are restricted in the first place.
2. Too many players are lying. At least two players are lying.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 01:49:34 pm
There is one inarguable, undisputed truth that proves that I'm not lying here. Both Toony and NJW are claiming somebody screwed with their results, and it's 100% impossible for me to have somehow blocked both of them. We know for a fact that at least one of them has to be lying. And we know for a fact that I can't be a killer due to the Night 1 outcome.Reminder that NJW was not able to dispute this and didn't even try. Instead, he repeatedly tries to misrep me and my emotional state, twisting my aggressive play into some kind of attack on him. Yet, he can't disprove the facts of what I've said.
Say the set up is 2 mafia + 1 ally. I target Web and Jail him, as ordered. This leaves my scum buddy free to perform the NK, and they know not to target Web because I let them know I'm Jailing him. Yet nobody dies.
Scenario 2. 1 mafia + 1 ally. I would have to have Multitasking as a passive in order to kill and follow my orders. I know I'm Jailing Web, so I would target somebody else. Yet, nobody dies.
Finally, why do I ever kill Web when Vector is confirmed to be aligned with Town due to Tric's Parity check? Why risk killing a potential ally? Why not endgame the town Night 1? Why not kill a Cop claim who might check me and out me as mafia?
Just look at the facts, and you know I can't be mafia. It has to be either NJW, Toony, or both of them, and town wins by voting there no matter what.
NJW
If this is indisputable then it has to mean that I'm town.
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 01:57:37 pm
It's very unlikely this game is only one mafia and one ally.
If we have a Town Vigilante who can only kill if given orders by a Captain, I would humbly suggest Not Killing, as knowing our devious GM FallacyofUrist, pulling that string by a Mafia Captain might be the mafia's only NK.There's no way it's 3 mafia. Even two mafia plus ally seems like too much.
Also, we should consider with 8 players that the mafia team might be more than 2 mafia. Maybe not 3 full mafia, but probably a 3rd player that can win with mafia somehow. We won't know until it is over.
This you?
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 01:58:33 pm
ToonyMan.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 02:03:19 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 02:05:43 pm
Well, unless the team is Roden/Vector and I got messed with hard. Which I'm starting to think might be the case, what is the case on toony other than him being slippery?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 25, 2021, 02:08:11 pm
Yes it is. That is what I said on D1 before seeing the nights and how this game has gone.It's very unlikely this game is only one mafia and one ally.If we have a Town Vigilante who can only kill if given orders by a Captain, I would humbly suggest Not Killing, as knowing our devious GM FallacyofUrist, pulling that string by a Mafia Captain might be the mafia's only NK.There's no way it's 3 mafia. Even two mafia plus ally seems like too much.
Also, we should consider with 8 players that the mafia team might be more than 2 mafia. Maybe not 3 full mafia, but probably a 3rd player that can win with mafia somehow. We won't know until it is over.
This you?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 25, 2021, 02:10:36 pm
Note that if it's 1 Mafia, Roden needs to go in case it's 2. If it's 2 Mafia, Roden needs to go cause he's the other. Either way Mafia is caught tomorrow.It could be that it's one mafia and two allies. This would explaining the balancing better and the amount of people lying.
Well, unless the team is Roden/Vector and I got messed with hard. Which I'm starting to think might be the case, what is the case on toony other than him being slippery?
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 02:24:00 pm
If there is only 1 mafia, Roden/NJW tell the truth, web isn't killed. Roden/Toony tell the truth, your action doesn't fail. Toony/Roden tell the truth, your action couldn't fail.
In case both Toony and NJW tell the truth, Roden is lying and his partner is Vector or I. But web wouldn't have died. It makes no sense, therefore either Vector or I are Mafia, or Roden is, or it's NJW/Toony.(Which is silly)
Two allies would be annoying, yes. But note, this still makes Roden the most likely. And fits his posts better. He blocked you from reporting. Besides which, there is the issue of Roden's action being unconfirmable. Targeting me is the worst thing he could have done with that power as town.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 25, 2021, 02:29:20 pm
-Given my mechanical knowledge is highly incomplete, I'm not going to bother with a long reply to this. I don't think anyone has actually offered a convincing explanation of what did happen last night, or why the hell I'd be claiming to have deflected web if I were scum. Suffice to say, mafia could have no-killed, may have some kind of nonstandard kill or strongman, or all kinds of nonsense. As Toony just said, yeah, two allies and a mafia with a kill is another possible case.
Anyhow, looks like we're probably killing Toony. Why're you griping? :P
Well, unless the team is Roden/Vector and I got messed with hard. Which I'm starting to think might be the case, what is the case on toony other than him being slippery?Hm... a worrying possibility. But that would require a redirection of your cop action you weren't told about, wouldn't it? Not impossible, but certainly a very marginal case.
As for the case on Toony, Vector mostly seems to be voting him because they think he was collaborating with Web in-thread. I think he's been enthusiastic for a dubious lynch and in bed with Roden, not to mention Vector's collaboration analysis is fairly convincing.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 02:38:57 pm
NJW: Deflected Web
TricMagic: Did nothing
Vector: Gave Watcher Invention to Roden.
Roden: Claimed to use Repel on me, making me target myself. (Dubious, as the closest I know is Mirror.)
Toony: Failed Result
What actually happened(possibilities): Roden used Repel on NJW. Toonyman kills Webadict.
OR Toony has a different role and redirected NJW(chance based), Roden killed Web.
Can you agree this is what would have happened NJW?
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 02:42:53 pm
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 02:44:58 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 25, 2021, 02:46:08 pm
I mean, that would be very simple and make sense. But I was told that I performed my action. So the Repel would have to be unnoticeable somehow. FoU apparently usually tells people when their action fails or gets redirected.
Can you agree this is what would have happened NJW?
This is one of the pathological things about my position today. I'm pretty genuinely lost when it comes to working out why my action was reported successful but was pretty obviously interfered with.
FallacyofUrist: Surely, people are not told if they've been redirected to an unexpected target?By default, people are always aware of who they end up targeting, at least in my games. This has been the case even in my earliest attempts at mafia-GM-ing. A variant ability could change this, however.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 02:47:05 pm
Holy shit Tric, I've told you multiple times now that you're describing Repel wrong.
Ok, I'm pretty sure you told me it worked wrong when I described mirror too. WHAT DOES IT DO?
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 02:52:06 pm
At work so I can't make a long post until later tonight, but I already explained what Repel does.Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.It's essentially a one-way target-specific role block.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 02:53:42 pm
Tric, find the hole in my logic.There is one inarguable, undisputed truth that proves that I'm not lying here. Both Toony and NJW are claiming somebody screwed with their results, and it's 100% impossible for me to have somehow blocked both of them. We know for a fact that at least one of them has to be lying. And we know for a fact that I can't be a killer due to the Night 1 outcome.Reminder that NJW was not able to dispute this and didn't even try. Instead, he repeatedly tries to misrep me and my emotional state, twisting my aggressive play into some kind of attack on him. Yet, he can't disprove the facts of what I've said.
Say the set up is 2 mafia + 1 ally. I target Web and Jail him, as ordered. This leaves my scum buddy free to perform the NK, and they know not to target Web because I let them know I'm Jailing him. Yet nobody dies.
Scenario 2. 1 mafia + 1 ally. I would have to have Multitasking as a passive in order to kill and follow my orders. I know I'm Jailing Web, so I would target somebody else. Yet, nobody dies.
Finally, why do I ever kill Web when Vector is confirmed to be aligned with Town due to Tric's Parity check? Why risk killing a potential ally? Why not endgame the town Night 1? Why not kill a Cop claim who might check me and out me as mafia?
Just look at the facts, and you know I can't be mafia. It has to be either NJW, Toony, or both of them, and town wins by voting there no matter what.
NJW
If this is indisputable then it has to mean that I'm town.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 03:31:34 pm
Take That! (https://youtu.be/lrOjYzmmUbk)Tric, find the hole in my logic.There is one inarguable, undisputed truth that proves that I'm not lying here. Both Toony and NJW are claiming somebody screwed with their results, and it's 100% impossible for me to have somehow blocked both of them. We know for a fact that at least one of them has to be lying. And we know for a fact that I can't be a killer due to the Night 1 outcome.Reminder that NJW was not able to dispute this and didn't even try. Instead, he repeatedly tries to misrep me and my emotional state, twisting my aggressive play into some kind of attack on him. Yet, he can't disprove the facts of what I've said.
Say the set up is 2 mafia + 1 ally. I target Web and Jail him, as ordered. This leaves my scum buddy free to perform the NK, and they know not to target Web because I let them know I'm Jailing him. Yet nobody dies.
Scenario 2. 1 mafia + 1 ally. I would have to have Multitasking as a passive in order to kill and follow my orders. I know I'm Jailing Web, so I would target somebody else. Yet, nobody dies.
Finally, why do I ever kill Web when Vector is confirmed to be aligned with Town due to Tric's Parity check? Why risk killing a potential ally? Why not endgame the town Night 1? Why not kill a Cop claim who might check me and out me as mafia?
Just look at the facts, and you know I can't be mafia. It has to be either NJW, Toony, or both of them, and town wins by voting there no matter what.
NJW
If this is indisputable then it has to mean that I'm town.
At work so I can't make a long post until later tonight, but I already explained what Repel does.Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.It's essentially a one-way target-specific role block.
https://youtu.be/YDcvkQ3_Ibc (https://youtu.be/YDcvkQ3_Ibc)
One way and target specific. Which would work on multiple targets. Right now, you can Deny interactions with a player. But this doesn't stop them from making their own actions, it's one way. As a result, Toony's Action Failed. Now, who here has that ability?
In this case, it's you, or Toony is lying. However, NJW targeted Web. In order for a kill to go through, he would need to be blocked. But he hasn't claimed such a thing. So, under these conditions, how did web die?
Let's look at the order of claims.
TricMagic, Did Nothing.[See this as me being Mafia if you like for the purpose of deduction.]
NJW: Deflection: Web to Toony.
Addendum: I wasn't told I was roleblocked. Could have been a redirect, that's pretty interfering.
Why is Web dead and not me then? Your claim doesn't make sense. FoU stated at the end of D2 that redirects are told to the person being redirected.
Roden: Ordered to Target Tric by Web. Claims Repel, preventing others from interacting with me. Note this does not reflect actions, simply causes them to fail. [Hypothosis: By nature, it's priority is higher than any other currently active. Only the Commuter would be higher.]
ToonyMan: Attempted to check NJW, Action Failed.
Vector: Gave Watcher Invention to Roden.[Roden claims this before Vector. Only applicable in a Vector/Roden team, otherwise truth.]
No actions currently known could bypass NJW's Reflection, but for Strogman that NJW brought up early on before any other claims were made. But for argument, he also said Roden would interfered. But there wasn't an Action Failed, so this isn't true if they aren't the same alignment.
In this case, Toony has to be lying about his role. But here is the kicker. Toony was the first person to really claim today. Not later. Not even after info had popped up. This would be the long con, and he'd need to have a second ability.
Under what conditions could Toony kill Web? Not alone unless it is a Strongman case. Together, it would be Roden. And here is the first nail awaiting your coffin.
Moving on, me. The exact same applies, except I've been lying about Parity from the beginning. This is one possibility. I'm actually very likely to have been able to kill webadict in that case. Nail here happens to be this is literally the first time I've heard of Parity, it's not something I'd come up with on my own. In this case, it's more likely to be true. Toony could search for town guns, while I searched for Mafia Allies. But then, why would web die? The answer is, he wouldn't. We would have just stuck to cover till we found our ally, or shot Vector instead, securing our victory. There are currently no circumstances where this sequence of events is false. No one protected Vector last night. Therefore, it is FALSE by default, for it didn't happen.
Next, NJW. In this case, he simply killed Web alone. However, Toony's ability wouldn't have failed. This would imply an extra power to him.
However, this is the second nail. Roden, you, would have just the ability to manage that. And your claim time fits too. No one is left who can confrim your action against me, and Vector had already given you the invention, so you knew what he did. One can't take the chance your single gun is noticed.
Vector next. Not much here, my ability would have needed to be messed with, or he's a godfather. The latter is unlikely given my one-shot nature. So in any team he's mafia, so are you. This, however, is unlikely.
Roden: Interference, brainwashing, redirection, repulsion, roleblocking, JOAT. You handed NJW the gun he killed with, with him none the wiser. You did not roleblock the first night. This is a far out theory however, as you'd need to be solo. Though having a secondary action might help with that, it's unlikely.
Funnily enough, you are well suited to negating the protection on web, or blocking abilities and results, hence reducing the info town has.
... 1 shot, 1 guarantee of victory. But only 1 mafia and 1 mafia ally. Or, 2 mafia allies and 1 mafia. Or perhaps, an even-day factional kill to balance the setup a bit more. Either way, all roads lead to Ro(me)den.
The issue is this entire setup is a mess. Toony would need to be strongarm and acting alone for you not to be mafia of some stripe. In order for any case where you are town, mafia must be acting alone, not together with allies. That's the only result that makes sense. And if Mafia is acting alone, then they'd die tomorrow either way. And in every case where Mafia are 2, you are the other. The only other case is me being mafia.
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 03:56:50 pm
(I already knew this wasn't the case because Tric is town and I don't think that was a staged fight between Roden and NJW, but still: here's some harder evidence)
Time to vote, guys. Get rid of him.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 25, 2021, 04:07:55 pm
My family is bothering me but I'm still going through NJW. I promise to finish these in a reasonable time.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 04:09:58 pm
... You do know that isn't hammer range right? We need 3 to hammer. That's only hammer if Toony has a partner.
If it's NJW, still not hammer.
And how about no? Why are you so desperate to hammer us Vector?
Nin. Also I am starting to suspect my inspect was messed with from day 1.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 04:13:29 pm
If there is a 1P scumteam, this probably isn't LaunchLO.... NJW, Toony, Vector, can we all agree on Roden? f it's one person, this isn't LYLO. If it's two, it most certainly is.
Toony is more dangerous and slippery as scum than either of NJW and Roden. Roden remains my #2 pick.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 25, 2021, 04:17:11 pm
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 04:23:17 pm
... You do know that isn't hammer range right? We need 3 to hammer. That's only hammer if Toony has a partner.
It's hammerable if Toony ISN'T scum and there's a 2P scumteam.
As for why I'm agitated: I'm feeling impatient I guess, I want to get things wrapped up and learn the truth. Welcome to Vector's Other Mode 9_9
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 04:33:00 pm
Nothing can ever be simple, can it...
Post by: ToonyMan on October 25, 2021, 05:38:43 pm
Day 1
#676 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321445#msg8321445) - RVS questions: focuses on Roden, Jack, and Vector. Pokes at Web.
#723 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321551#msg8321551) - Responds to some questions, the notable parts are heavily suspecting Tric for claiming Parity Cop and giving the stink eye to Roden for claiming Jailor under the Captain.
Ever since Day 1 I've still been a bit suspicious of NJW wanting to kill one of the cop claims. I think that's a pretty scum thing to do as I definitely would want to try to do that as mafia.
#755 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321745#msg8321745) - NJW gives their reads and votes Tric. Roden was their top town read as well.
So here NJW goes from suspecting Roden to plopping them at the top of the town reads, which Jack immediately finds odd.
#772 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321791#msg8321791) - NJW continues to attack Tric.
#812 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322137#msg8322137) - NJW responding to stuff. Defends Max a bit from Jack and Web. Continues to push for Tric: "Ok, not even a desultory gesture towards a Tric lynch, we're just letting players build up a meta for scum-sided play on the assumption that they're easily read. No way that could go wrong."
#819 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322161#msg8322161) - Arguing with Web.
#829 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322336#msg8322336) - Arguing with Web more.
#836 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322385#msg8322385) - Gives a warning they don't think Jack is scum but will vote him if necessary. Also gives reasons why they think Max are town.
Their reasons for why they think Max are town look genuine.
#838 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322413#msg8322413) - More arguing with Web. Votes Jack here saying they don't think they're scum but think me and Roden have a better read on Jack.
This vote looks really bad to me. It's the third vote on Jack after me and Roden voted him and they give the excuse they don't even think Jack is mafia which is perfect if Jack is town like he was.
#840 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322431#msg8322431) - Gives more reasons for why Max is likely town. Goes to bed.
Working on Day 2 but I want to get this out for now. I really don't think I'll have time to do Roden today I ended up doing family stuff today and I just don't have time which fucking sucks because I want to be here. I will vote today. It doesn't look like Tric is voting with Vector, but I will still vote with Tric before day end.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 06:02:21 pm
Tric, you're actually driving me insane here. You didn't address my argument at all. Not even a little bit. You just went off on an unrelated tangent and I don't even know why. Your entire post is speculation and does nothing to challenge the things I said that are guaranteed facts.Take That! (https://youtu.be/lrOjYzmmUbk)Tric, find the hole in my logic.There is one inarguable, undisputed truth that proves that I'm not lying here. Both Toony and NJW are claiming somebody screwed with their results, and it's 100% impossible for me to have somehow blocked both of them. We know for a fact that at least one of them has to be lying. And we know for a fact that I can't be a killer due to the Night 1 outcome.Reminder that NJW was not able to dispute this and didn't even try. Instead, he repeatedly tries to misrep me and my emotional state, twisting my aggressive play into some kind of attack on him. Yet, he can't disprove the facts of what I've said.
Say the set up is 2 mafia + 1 ally. I target Web and Jail him, as ordered. This leaves my scum buddy free to perform the NK, and they know not to target Web because I let them know I'm Jailing him. Yet nobody dies.
Scenario 2. 1 mafia + 1 ally. I would have to have Multitasking as a passive in order to kill and follow my orders. I know I'm Jailing Web, so I would target somebody else. Yet, nobody dies.
Finally, why do I ever kill Web when Vector is confirmed to be aligned with Town due to Tric's Parity check? Why risk killing a potential ally? Why not endgame the town Night 1? Why not kill a Cop claim who might check me and out me as mafia?
Just look at the facts, and you know I can't be mafia. It has to be either NJW, Toony, or both of them, and town wins by voting there no matter what.
NJW
If this is indisputable then it has to mean that I'm town.At work so I can't make a long post until later tonight, but I already explained what Repel does.Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.It's essentially a one-way target-specific role block.
https://youtu.be/YDcvkQ3_Ibc (https://youtu.be/YDcvkQ3_Ibc)
One way and target specific. Which would work on multiple targets. Right now, you can Deny interactions with a player. But this doesn't stop them from making their own actions, it's one way. As a result, Toony's Action Failed. Now, who here has that ability?
In this case, it's you, or Toony is lying. However, NJW targeted Web. In order for a kill to go through, he would need to be blocked. But he hasn't claimed such a thing. So, under these conditions, how did web die?
Let's look at the order of claims.
TricMagic, Did Nothing.[See this as me being Mafia if you like for the purpose of deduction.]
NJW: Deflection: Web to Toony.Addendum: I wasn't told I was roleblocked. Could have been a redirect, that's pretty interfering.Why is Web dead and not me then? Your claim doesn't make sense. FoU stated at the end of D2 that redirects are told to the person being redirected.
Roden: Ordered to Target Tric by Web. Claims Repel, preventing others from interacting with me. Note this does not reflect actions, simply causes them to fail. [Hypothosis: By nature, it's priority is higher than any other currently active. Only the Commuter would be higher.]
ToonyMan: Attempted to check NJW, Action Failed.
Vector: Gave Watcher Invention to Roden.[Roden claims this before Vector. Only applicable in a Vector/Roden team, otherwise truth.]
No actions currently known could bypass NJW's Reflection, but for Strogman that NJW brought up early on before any other claims were made. But for argument, he also said Roden would interfered. But there wasn't an Action Failed, so this isn't true if they aren't the same alignment.
In this case, Toony has to be lying about his role. But here is the kicker. Toony was the first person to really claim today. Not later. Not even after info had popped up. This would be the long con, and he'd need to have a second ability.
Under what conditions could Toony kill Web? Not alone unless it is a Strongman case. Together, it would be Roden. And here is the first nail awaiting your coffin.
Moving on, me. The exact same applies, except I've been lying about Parity from the beginning. This is one possibility. I'm actually very likely to have been able to kill webadict in that case. Nail here happens to be this is literally the first time I've heard of Parity, it's not something I'd come up with on my own. In this case, it's more likely to be true. Toony could search for town guns, while I searched for Mafia Allies. But then, why would web die? The answer is, he wouldn't. We would have just stuck to cover till we found our ally, or shot Vector instead, securing our victory. There are currently no circumstances where this sequence of events is false. No one protected Vector last night. Therefore, it is FALSE by default, for it didn't happen.
Next, NJW. In this case, he simply killed Web alone. However, Toony's ability wouldn't have failed. This would imply an extra power to him.
However, this is the second nail. Roden, you, would have just the ability to manage that. And your claim time fits too. No one is left who can confrim your action against me, and Vector had already given you the invention, so you knew what he did. One can't take the chance your single gun is noticed.
Vector next. Not much here, my ability would have needed to be messed with, or he's a godfather. The latter is unlikely given my one-shot nature. So in any team he's mafia, so are you. This, however, is unlikely.
Roden: Interference, brainwashing, redirection, repulsion, roleblocking, JOAT. You handed NJW the gun he killed with, with him none the wiser. You did not roleblock the first night. This is a far out theory however, as you'd need to be solo. Though having a secondary action might help with that, it's unlikely.
Funnily enough, you are well suited to negating the protection on web, or blocking abilities and results, hence reducing the info town has.
... 1 shot, 1 guarantee of victory. But only 1 mafia and 1 mafia ally. Or, 2 mafia allies and 1 mafia. Or perhaps, an even-day factional kill to balance the setup a bit more. Either way, all roads lead to Ro(me)den.
The issue is this entire setup is a mess. Toony would need to be strongarm and acting alone for you not to be mafia of some stripe. In order for any case where you are town, mafia must be acting alone, not together with allies. That's the only result that makes sense. And if Mafia is acting alone, then they'd die tomorrow either way. And in every case where Mafia are 2, you are the other. The only other case is me being mafia.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 06:08:09 pm
There is one inarguable, undisputed truth that proves that I'm not lying here. Both Toony and NJW are claiming somebody screwed with their results, and it's 100% impossible for me to have somehow blocked both of them. We know for a fact that at least one of them has to be lying. And we know for a fact that I can't be a killer due to the Night 1 outcome.I will self-vote if somebody can actually prove this is incorrect. I'm beyond frustrated at this point. Every single bit of suspicion towards me has been speculation without a single shred of hard proof to back it up and I'm kind of over it.
Say the set up is 2 mafia + 1 ally. I target Web and Jail him, as ordered. This leaves my scum buddy free to perform the NK, and they know not to target Web because I let them know I'm Jailing him. Yet nobody dies.
Scenario 2. 1 mafia + 1 ally. I would have to have Multitasking as a passive in order to kill and follow my orders. I know I'm Jailing Web, so I would target somebody else. Yet, nobody dies.
Finally, why do I ever kill Web when Vector is confirmed to be aligned with Town due to Tric's Parity check? Why risk killing a potential ally? Why not endgame the town Night 1? Why not kill a Cop claim who might check me and out me as mafia?
Just look at the facts, and you know I can't be mafia. It has to be either NJW, Toony, or both of them, and town wins by voting there no matter what.
NJW
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 06:13:31 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 06:16:25 pm
Also, you use ordered in your argument. Web is dead, and if the setup is 2 mafia, they would have a nerf so they and the ally don't win n2. An Even-Night Kill makes sense, or even just not being able to kill N1.
Scenario 2, you bring up multitasking in order to kill. But the Factional Nightkill isn't under orders from the captain. Something you just plain ignore in this scenario. Look at Max, he's a commuter. Therefore your ability wouldn't have procced on him anyway. I can go back and see what order you web and Max claimed in, and I'll bet I'll see you after them all.
Last. If you are an ally, and not the Mafia, you didn't perform the kill. As ally, your actions make less sense. As Mafia, your actions make more sense, as web is dangerous to leave alive, and you'd have no reason to not use deflection or your JOAT ability. Not doing so would be suspicious so long as web yet lived. So Mafia killed them.
It's nothing personal Roden. Also, you were gone for most of that, so that's not really something I can rely on here. If it's 1 mafia, your roleflip will catch them. If it's 2 mafia, you are the only link that makes sense.
More specifically, you can mess with bodyguards, cops, deflectors, and even inventors. Why would town need a JOAT like you? You just muddy the waters, and your Repel is perfect for the result Toony got.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 06:24:40 pm
Ok, looks like some claims may be in order, as the scumkill seems to have failed. We may be able to build up a picture of the night. I am a captain restricted deflector. I can choose my second target but my first is chosen for me.
I deflected Webadict onto MaximumSpin.
Ok, looks like some claims may be in order, as the scumkill seems to have failed. We may be able to build up a picture of the night. I am a captain restricted deflector. I can choose my second target but my first is chosen for me.Aye. I did warn ye Mafia not to kill me. Now look whatcha gone an' done!
I deflected Webadict onto MaximumSpin.
Yarrr... I be a One-shot Roleblocker Captain. Me crew consists of a Jailer... Nah, I'll let you claim as ye want, but this be a lie (Roden, the ship "doctor"), a 50% Inventor (Vector, me best cannoneer), and a Deflector (NJW2000, me first mate).
During the day, I can set the course for me crews' ships. And once at Night, I can lock onna ye in the brig!
T'prove I be a scurvy sea dog, I sent me best men... er, sea dogs... to come test their metal against yer's truly! Needed to prove which o' ye were truly up ter the task of sailin' me ship! NJW2000 passed th' bar with flyin' colors. Tha' should prove the lad's greener'n seaweed.
So, either Maximum Spin be Kill-Immune, or Roden may be yer savior, ya harr.
Interesting.
I happen to be a commuter. I didn't do anything in the night, nor did I receive anything, unless some weird flavour about sitting in a room with chips and a book was supposed to indicate something. I am not entirely sure how this resolves the webadict-centred action web.
Vector/TMag is a highly plausible scum pairing - Vector knows TM's play well enough to coach him. This could, therefore, be a plan to appear to clear Vector by getting me lynched, since they would know I am town. This would be easy enough to pull off that it's an extremely sensible plan.
I am going to hold back on voting until I hear more results from people.
YEEEEP(ops the p).
For reference.
Right. I checked Vector and it was negative so no guns on them at least.
Right after Web, before Max.Right. I checked Vector and it was negative so no guns on them at least.K, I'm a 1-shot Parity Cop, rather than the other one. I check Two target's auras rather than 1. And I can confirm Vector and Max Spin have the Same Alignment.
In other news, if you don't believe me, lynch me. Or I'm a multiple, but what would be the balance in that?
That said, someone in the Captain's list is a traitor.
Ok, I think we caught scum.And you are last, besides Vector. Why, what a perfect time to make your claim.
Last night I was ordered to target Web. I did, and chose to Jail him. However, I actually got a results PM that told me that I screwed up and Jailed Max instead. With no kill happening, it leads me to believe Max made the NK and that I stopped him. I just don't think scum would've targeted him, so I don't think I protected him. Though if NJW's Deflect also affects kill actions, that would explain why there wasn't a kill, since I would be protecting someone who became the NK target.
The Commuter claim has to be a lie though because Tric has results on Max and NJW seems to have successfully Deflected me onto Max. Toony's claim that Vector doesn't have a gun is Strange though, if both Max and Vector are scum. It's possible we have a scum Inventor who has to hand out guns to town who they believe will misfire at night, I suppose. Maybe that's what the Gunsmith is for?
What was my point again?
Ah, right. Web only claimed he was the captain on Day 2! Not 1. Up till that point, you had to deal with the chance of a town captain, so doing something completely different night one could have screwed you over pretty badly.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 06:42:15 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 06:55:57 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 25, 2021, 07:03:36 pm
Does it say something We're 3 hours from the end of the day.A few more minutes. Long post soon, then we'll settle on an elimination target.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 07:08:16 pm
... Those words do not fill me with confidence NJW. Compared to Toony you set off far more of my scum-senses.Does it say something We're 3 hours from the end of the day.A few more minutes. Long post soon, then we'll settle on an elimination target.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 07:10:00 pm
Spoiler: Don't peak till after NJW everyone (click to show/hide)
Post by: NJW2000 on October 25, 2021, 07:14:04 pm
Spoiler: Don't peak till after NJW everyone (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 07:17:39 pm
?Spoiler: Don't peak till after NJW everyone (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Right, can't quote without seeing.
And that's what makes it confusing. You peeked, should have left a jumpscare in there.
Spoiler: Don't peek this time. (click to show/hide)
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 07:21:28 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 25, 2021, 07:21:51 pm
Having two or more conversations is the only way I can talk.Ok, I have to say that now we know Web's role, some of his posts are absolutely lustrous.
In any case. Sorting through the burning tire heap that is the thread, I can say I'd prefer Toony dying to Roden, even if Roden may be more powerful, because I'm more sure Toony's mafia. Fairly sure it's both of them because they can basically read Jack, especially Toony, and yet both went for him D1. Not much other info. I think Roden and Toony's attacks on me are bad but I know I'm town, so it's hard for me not to be objective there.
Also, Max's last readslist has Tric/Vec. May have been specific to the information he had at the time, but it's something to cling to. What else?
Right, low-likelihood edge cases. Assuming coordinated hammers, Tric/Roden is out because vec votes toony. Similarly Vec/Toony is out, although a Vec/Web/Toony scum trio would probably have killed us all and drawn moustaches on the corpses by now anyway. Tric/Vec... I don't think so. Tric would be tying themselves to Vector. Also, that has Roden and Toony as town, and if Tric/Vec can shoot their partner and leave me, Roden and Toony grappling in the mud, they deserve this game.
This leaves Vec/Roden and Tric Toony. Roden is the one claiming to get a watcher from Vec, so that's dubious... but I'm pretty sure Vec couldn't be scum with Roden due to Toony's gunsmith cop claim D2. Toony/Tric is however a highly worrying possibility, and my sleep-deprived brain can't find a hard way to rule it out. Toony townreads Tric, "gives" him a vote today, ugh. So that's a reason to kill Toony.
Oh, one more thing.
I was ordered to target Tric, which knowing that Web was mafia-aligned now, seems like TMI that Tric is town. He knew I was a JOAT and assumed I have blocking abilities (even though he claimed I was a Doctor lol, pretty sure that was supposed to be a crumb for scum to NK me), and he wouldn't have me directly role block the mafia team, so I'm fairly certain Tric is town.This post asks us to believe that Web knew the mafia team, was willing to order one town player to interfere with another that claimed to no longer have a power, and wanted scum to kill someone under his command. Web can't TMI as far as I know, would probably have tried to use interference abilities to his advantage, and being Web would have held onto his power as Captain at any cost, not asked the mafia to slaughter his pet townies. Also, he would have used an interference ability to interfere with someone more threatening- perhaps even me, not someone with no ability to act. So maybe killing Roden wouldn't be such a bad plan, considering posts like these
I'm assuming there's two scum, but that seems safe as assumptions go.
I guess Toony would have posted a huge post about Roden if he was partners with Tric... he would only have needed my support, and I would have had to tie the voting to stop a Tric-Toony wagon, which I don't think I've suggested I'd be willing to do over lynching Roden today.
So yeah, ok, let's kill roden. Vector, you up?
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 08:01:41 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 08:02:47 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 08:07:55 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 25, 2021, 08:17:44 pm
I honestly don't fully trust you, Tric. Roden is acting dodgy as hell, but Toony even moreso, and I can't rule out a Tric/Toony team the way I can rule out everything else but the high-probability Roden/Toony team. It's only Toony's rather light stance on Roden that's giving me any reassurance he's not with you. And he may be smart enough to have done that intentionally.
Do you think there's a possible scumteam with Vector on it and not Toonyman?
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 08:19:23 pm
I understand that people don't want to trust me even though I've been copped by both Tric and Toony already, but that's pretty silly. You're refusing to trust me despite a landslide of evidence in favor of my innocence and a reasonable amount of evidence against the Toonster. Why waste another inspection on me when you aren't going to believe the results anyway?
Now, I will vote Roden in event of a tie, but I don't recommend you all try to force it. I'm as mechanically cleared as I can get, you goofy nerds.
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 08:25:48 pm
My point stands though. Any 2-person team would involve Roden. If it's 1-person, we'll know tomorrow. Or rather at the end of the day.
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 08:29:56 pm
Give Vote to Vector
Ima try this. As the only confirmed town, he's likely the best suited to cracking things.
This you? LOL.
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 08:35:47 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 08:37:04 pm
That, and the obvious. You'd need to have a strongarm style thing to make that kill. Given NJW deflected. And Toony claimed gunsmith way early. And such fit with my role more than others. I mean, what use would mafia have with that ability? And he'd need to be right, else things would go badly. You and Roden claimed last in the day, he claimed th...
Toony, you had better not be mafia. Cause if Roden flips town you aren't getting out of being lynched tomorrow.
...
Yeah, that's what makes me think my result got messed with.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 25, 2021, 08:56:25 pm
Case in point. Toony, can you doublecheck Vector? I'm a bit worried.I could, okay.
I'm sorry but I don't think I'll be able to do any other big write ups tonight.
I will vote Roden as well.
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 09:00:56 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 25, 2021, 09:07:56 pm
That's hammer.It's stuff like that that makes me worried Vector.
Roden: TricMagic, ToonyMan
ToonyMan: Vector
NJW: Roden
3/5 to Hammer. 50 Minutes remain.
Post by: Vector on October 25, 2021, 09:13:04 pm
Well, I'm not going to get any new data from NJW's opinion on this, so fine. Roden.
Post by: Roden on October 25, 2021, 09:14:03 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 26, 2021, 12:28:03 am
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (3): TricMagic, ToonyMan, Vector
TricMagic (0):
NJW2000 (1): Roden
Vector (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): NJW2000
3 to hammer.
Tonight, it seemed, Roden had fallen afoul of the combined wishes of TricMagic, leader of the charge, ToonyMan, supporter, and Vector, once again the bearer of the forceful hand. He plummeted to his doom, shock and betrayal on his face.
Triumphant looks turned to horror.
Roden was Town.
An exploration of his room - there isn't much time, it's so dark now - reveals chains (stumbled over) and some rusty mechanic's tools. You're lucky he didn't make some kind of booby-trap with a saw blade.
Quote
Interference JOAT (town):
(Auto) Orders: Instead of being able to choose your own action target, your target is selected for you by the Captain. You may still choose not to act. If the Captain dies, you lose the ability to act if they were Town and gain the ability to act freely if they were non-Town.
(1-Shot, Night) Jailkeep [target]: You use a set of locksmith’s tools to lock your target’s door shut, preventing them from acting but also protecting them from kill actions, this Night. They will be given a ‘you were roleblocked’ result if they attempted to act.
(1-Shot, Night) Rolestop [target]: You use a network of tripwires and chains to ensure that all actions used on your target tonight will fail, except this one.
(1-Shot, Night) Repel [target]: Choose a player (you do not visit your choice). You use magnetic dust on your target, causing their action to fail if it would visit your chosen player.
There's only four of you left now. What shall happen next, you all wonder? It is a mystery that time shall soon reveal.
Night 3 has begun, and will end Wednesday at 1 AM, Central/Forum time. Or when action processing has been completed.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 27, 2021, 02:08:05 am
Eat breakfast, apparently. But even those supplies were dwindling.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
TricMagic (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (4): ToonyMan, TricMagic, NJW2000, Vector
3 to hammer.
Day 4 has begun, and will end 2 AM, Central time, Friday - or on a hammer. Around 48 hours from now.
Post by: Roden on October 27, 2021, 03:24:01 am
You dumb fucks.Mood.
*bleh*
Post by: ToonyMan on October 27, 2021, 04:29:02 am
It has to be one mafia or we would have endgamed.
I tried to check Vector but targeted Tric instead who came back positive but I don't find that alarming.
The mafia has to be NJW. Vector is almost certainly cleared and has made it clear they suspect me heavily so I'm not surprised they're still alive. It's possible Tric is the mafia and playing all of us, but no way in hell from what I've seen. And the guilty result I got last night only confirms they were telling the truth.
I'm going to an amusement park today but I'll be back in the evening for some longer posts. I need to figure out how Web and NJW made my action fail the night before.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 04:52:16 am
Do feel as aggrieved as you like, Roden, I may have missed one crucial thing yesterday. Please don't imagine there's anything you could have done, like voting Toony or anything.
Unless I'm wrong about certain things, FoU is a very curious GM.
Anyhow, the nokill is confusing, but probably attributable to cowardice. I guess a Toonyman elimination would be the best idea, but I'm willing to hear what people have to say first.
Post by: TricMagic on October 27, 2021, 08:18:12 am
Funnily enough, if it is Toony he couldn't target Vector. Otherwise I would have died last night. The same doesn't hold if it's NJW. So that's likely why there was no kill.
This is also the final nail in the coffin of Vector's mafiahood. As in we can confirm via Toony's result that Vector did not have a gun N1 if he got a positive result off of me. So I now hold one of these 50/50 guns I can use tonight. A coinflip's chance of victory, but one nonetheless.
Also, sorry Roden. But with your role flipped, we can confirm your actions.
Vector>Roden=Watcher Invention.
Toony>NJW(Interrupted by Roden)
Roden>TricMagic=Repel shield.
NJW>Web=Deflection
This is the current claims today. Notice something off in them?
Post by: TricMagic on October 27, 2021, 10:46:16 am
Vector>TricMagic(GUN)
NJW>Vector(deflect to TricMagic)
Toony>Vector deflected to TricMagic.
Unlike the night before, it's a pretty simple thing.
Post by: Vector on October 27, 2021, 11:34:44 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 01:07:39 pm
Toony did intentionally shoot web, which is hilarious. I'm going to have to look again at my other reads, but yeah, it's Toonyman we have to lynch.
That should almost definitely be the last scum, the mafia would have been massively powerful as is if Toony didn't screw the pooch so hard and specifically. That should be game.
If not game, mechanical analysis suggests Vector will be their mafia ally, as does the fact they hammered town twice - glad Tric's on the same page here. So yeah, we vote out Toony, then get poor kill-less Vector the next day.
Post by: Vector on October 27, 2021, 01:47:06 pm
Think about it -- having gunsmith on an ally makes sense mechanically, since Toony would need a role that helps them find the scumteam. Roden tried to insist yesterday that the kill came from NJW.
It's Toonyman. I checked a bizarre one-time condition on my deflect, and it turned out it came into play. Should have done due diligence at the start of the game, I guess. Interesting that people get told who their actions get deflected onto but I get an "action successful" result if my action just doesn't occur.
And this is pure scum ass-covering. I've been where you are before and vague handwaving of "oh whoops guess the mechanics are just weird LOL" is not exactly town behavior.
If not game, mechanical analysis suggests Vector will be their mafia ally, as does the fact they hammered town twice - glad Tric's on the same page here.
Ah yes. Vector, who handed townie Roden an inspect ability, and Vector, who handed probably-townie Tric a kill, Vector, who brought the case tying Toony to Web in the first place, and
This is also the final nail in the coffin of Vector's mafiahood. As in we can confirm via Toony's result that Vector did not have a gun N1 if he got a positive result off of me. So I now hold one of these 50/50 guns I can use tonight. A coinflip's chance of victory, but one nonetheless.
Tric is literally saying here that I couldn't possibly be scum, silly. I GOT INSPECTED TWICE. If you want to claim that I'm scum, then you need to have some kind of explanation for how both inspections from Tric and Toony would have failed. I can understand your claiming that Toony could be mafia and lied, but you haven't explained yet why Tric's result would be incorrect.
You want me dead, you need to be more specific about your "mechanical analysis suggests" and "bizarre one-time condition." Bring the quotations and the case. As-is you just sound like confused, back-pedaling scum.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 02:57:37 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 02:58:15 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 02:59:33 pm
Learn self-control with the goddamn red text.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 03:11:17 pm
Are they going to take a 100% win that you're handing them now? Yes, if Tric is online.
You'll have hammered town twice and made the losing vote this game if you keep that vote there. Just let that sink in.
But go on. My attempt to go from a 25% chance of winning to 50% or better is going to backfire, apparently. At least that lets me stop playing.
Complete lack of self-control and OMGUS votes not even for a vote. A fine way for town to lose such a stupid game.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 03:39:43 pm
If you actually get a chance to use this information, town has a 50% chance of a win, at best. But pretty sure FoU wouldn't do mafia + mafia ally in this setup. It'd be very weak. So... probably just a matter of waiting for Tric to get online and take advantage of Vector's complete lack of impulse control.
Post by: Vector on October 27, 2021, 04:25:44 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 04:34:11 pm
I have now recieved confirmation that I would not be told about it if the deflection failed because it would have created a self target. If you think that's ridiculous, fair enough, but I assume it's in there as a stalemate breaker or something. I apologise for suggesting you might be scum as a ruse. Let's see if Tric will allow a Toony lynch. I suspect not, and that we're going into the night with a 75% chance of losing, but I don't know for sure.
So again, please unvote. I'm not going to bother asking Toony to unvote, as he is mafia, and so probably won't do as I request.
Post by: TricMagic on October 27, 2021, 04:35:11 pm
Killing Vector would have been the smart play, but open up to a 3 person standoff. Killing Toony would make it NJW. The opposite is also true.Why exactly are you panicking? And no way I'm voting till some talk is done.
Funnily enough, if it is Toony he couldn't target Vector. Otherwise I would have died last night. The same doesn't hold if it's NJW. So that's likely why there was no kill.
This is also the final nail in the coffin of Vector's mafiahood. As in we can confirm via Toony's result that Vector did not have a gun N1 if he got a positive result off of me. So I now hold one of these 50/50 guns I can use tonight. A coinflip's chance of victory, but one nonetheless.
Also, sorry Roden. But with your role flipped, we can confirm your actions.
Vector>Roden=Watcher Invention.
Toony>NJW(Interrupted by Roden)
Roden>TricMagic=Repel shield.
NJW>Web=Deflection
This is the current claims today. Notice something off in them?
....
Post by: Vector on October 27, 2021, 04:35:40 pm
Post by: Vector on October 27, 2021, 04:36:36 pm
It’s either Toony/NJW or just Toony.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 05:34:15 pm
Well then, it's Toony. As for Vector... yeah, it's incredibly unlikely that they're scum with Toony at this point.
So there's really just one mafia... ok, that's pretty weird. Could be a very odd situation with mafia-allies... but I figure they'd have hashed out who their partners are.
Panicky much? And yes, I will shoot you or toony, if we get the wrong person.Yeah, I panicked pretty hard. And posted with a regrettable tone, I'll admit. I don't regret the panicking though, I was pretty sure you/Toony were the scumteam, and thought mafia were about to hammer for game. I really don't pretend to be good at reading you, I genuinely thought you were mafia.Killing Vector would have been the smart play, but open up to a 3 person standoff. Killing Toony would make it NJW. The opposite is also true.Why exactly are you panicking? And no way I'm voting till some talk is done.
Funnily enough, if it is Toony he couldn't target Vector. Otherwise I would have died last night. The same doesn't hold if it's NJW. So that's likely why there was no kill.
This is also the final nail in the coffin of Vector's mafiahood. As in we can confirm via Toony's result that Vector did not have a gun N1 if he got a positive result off of me. So I now hold one of these 50/50 guns I can use tonight. A coinflip's chance of victory, but one nonetheless.
Also, sorry Roden. But with your role flipped, we can confirm your actions.
Vector>Roden=Watcher Invention.
Toony>NJW(Interrupted by Roden)
Roden>TricMagic=Repel shield.
NJW>Web=Deflection
This is the current claims today. Notice something off in them?
....
My role, in more detail:
So, turns out that my deflection fails if I'd make someone target themselves, and the mod doesn't tell me that this happened. This is why I spent D3 theorizing about nonsense like bus drivers and mafia deflection-strongmen. And also why I didn't really engage with Roden's post about how someone had to be lying about what happened in the night - I thought that he had a weird interference power, or mafia had something hidden up their sleeve, or so on.
I should have checked this earlier, I'll admit, but it was just a possibility I completely failed to see. It is weird that I get less reliable information whenever I deflect, but in this specific case I get to know who performed the kill, but that's the way FoU has it.
I targeted Toony, so it has be Toony that did the kill. There's no other way through my deflection without actually mucking with my action, and I'd get told about that.
Welp, Vector was completely right, it's just Toony. And not Tric. Which feels crazy.
Post by: TricMagic on October 27, 2021, 05:41:06 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 27, 2021, 06:01:53 pm
I'll let Toony tear your case to shreds. Cause that's all that's going to be left after he's done.I mean... is there a reason you're not going to try that yourself? Because you seem to enjoying that sort of large-scale analysis, and things would go faster if I could answer any obvious questions sooner rather than later.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 27, 2021, 09:12:40 pm
@Vector:
Toony: Why are you unconcerned about Tric having a gun?Should I be? I'm glad you were able to give a gun to Tric as this means Tric can shoot NJW if you mislynch me. I don't believe NJW can self-target their deflection...at the very least it should raise town's win rate by 50% no matter what happens.
NJW is the killer.
It’s either Toony/NJW or just Toony.Which is it Vector? I refuse to lose to NJW who is openly being scum in front of me.
@NJW:
So there's really just one mafia... ok, that's pretty weird. Could be a very odd situation with mafia-allies... but I figure they'd have hashed out who their partners are.The game would have auto-ended if there were two mafia, there's only four people left.
Yeah, I panicked pretty hard. And posted with a regrettable tone, I'll admit. I don't regret the panicking though, I was pretty sure you/Toony were the scumteam, and thought mafia were about to hammer for game. I really don't pretend to be good at reading you, I genuinely thought you were mafia.None of this makes sense, mafia would have already won if there were two alive still. It's just you.
My role, in more detail:You never deflected Web to me on N2 did you? You shot Web and are trying to frame me by explaining some unique made up case where your deflection wouldn't work.
So, turns out that my deflection fails if I'd make someone target themselves, and the mod doesn't tell me that this happened. This is why I spent D3 theorizing about nonsense like bus drivers and mafia deflection-strongmen. And also why I didn't really engage with Roden's post about how someone had to be lying about what happened in the night - I thought that he had a weird interference power, or mafia had something hidden up their sleeve, or so on.
I should have checked this earlier, I'll admit, but it was just a possibility I completely failed to see. It is weird that I get less reliable information whenever I deflect, but in this specific case I get to know who performed the kill, but that's the way FoU has it.
I targeted Toony, so it has be Toony that did the kill. There's no other way through my deflection without actually mucking with my action, and I'd get told about that.
I've been speculating today while walking around at the park and I think I know how N2 went down.
Your mafiakill is only on even-numbered nights, isn't it? We have no reason to believe a kill happened on N1 or N3. And the mafiakill must be special like multi-tasking, as Roden targeted you with Repel or Rolestop instead which caused my action to fail, or you have a second ability that is a part of your factional kill. This information would not show up on Webadict's captain flip.
Welp, Vector was completely right, it's just Toony. And not Tric. Which feels crazy.Why does it feel crazy?
@Tric:
I'll let Toony tear your case to shreds. Cause that's all that's going to be left after he's done.Vector would have to agree or else we're going to end with a tie/no-lynch today.
I will be writing up more of NJW now that I'm home.
Post by: Vector on October 27, 2021, 09:32:24 pm
I tried to check Vector but targeted Tric instead who came back positive but I don't find that alarming.
I'm asking why you didn't find this alarming. You posted before me.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 27, 2021, 09:49:12 pm
And as has been proven earlier today with the lack of quickhammer, Tric is not mafia. There was that 1% possibility in my mind so I guess I'm glad that has been disproven while I was away.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 27, 2021, 10:00:50 pm
Tric slammed down their cop claim D1 right after I did. Their entire play in this game has been their town meta. I became convinced from D1 alone which I feel confident I can get most of the time. I don't think Tric is clever enough to invent this "parity cop" business within hours of the round starting. When I ended up inspecting them last night the second last thought in my mind was "shit Tric was mafia all along!!".
Post by: Vector on October 27, 2021, 10:59:52 pm
While it appears true that Tric has a new gun, I can't fully confirm that is the case because there are certain town roles that I will always get a guilty result on, such as cops. All I can say is that Vector was clean on N1 and that Tric was loaded on N3.
OK, I understand now. Thank you.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 28, 2021, 06:03:43 am
The game would have auto-ended if there were two mafia, there's only four people left.Obviously not, Vector can give themselves guns and I have a deflect, so if it was Vector and I against you and Tric, we could have potentially done something. It was perfectly reasonable not to expect the game to end while we still had a chance to win. FoU isn't going to break that convention.
Quote
Your mafiakill is only on even-numbered nights, isn't it? We have no reason to believe a kill happened on N1 or N3.6 town vs a mafia and a mafia ally, where the mafia kill is only on even numbered nights? What kind of nonsense is this? FoU gives some weird kill restrictions but that really takes the cake. Mafia would be absolutely nerfed to the ground if that were the case.
Quote
And the mafiakill must be special like multi-tasking, as Roden targeted you with Repel or Rolestop instead which caused my action to fail, or you have a second ability that is a part of your factional kill. This information would not show up on Webadict's captain flip.
How would Roden's targeting me with repel or rolestop cause your action to fail?
Also, what on earth do you mean "repel or rolestop"? Is this what your peripatetic park ponderings have got you - the belief that Roden lied for no reason as town? Town read the thread, they don't just cast about for any old hypothesis.
Roden flipped town, so we can trust that he used the repel:
Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.It's essentially a one-way target-specific role block.
So... Tric not being able to interact with me is why your action failed? This is going to be interesting.
Quote
(1-Shot, Night) Repel [target]: Choose a player (you do not visit your choice). You use magnetic dust on your target, causing their action to fail if it would visit your chosen player.
If you think it's because I somehow multitasked and redirected the deflect so you were repulsed from me, that entails Web chose to let me choose who Roden's target was, so completely gave up any control at all over the repel. Web just wanted a random repel to happen? And gave up a self-defensive deflection to make it happen? Why? What's the logic there?
While it appears true that Tric has a new gun, I can't fully confirm that is the case because there are certain town roles that I will always get a guilty result on, such as cops. All I can say is that Vector was clean on N1 and that Tric was loaded on N3.Why will you always get a guilty result on cops? FoU gave my ability an unusual endgame-weirdness, but this just makes no sense.
Why would that be something? What possible reason could there be? An ability like that admittedly could make sense for mafia up against cops and inventors, but not for town.
Observations about Toony's play
You don't have to decide whether you think Toony is mafia. I'm telling you he's mafia. You have to decide whether or not he's more likely to be mafia than me. So let's have a brief look through the game. I'm not doing a line-by-line on his posts where I misconstrue every word and describe ordinary actions as suggestively as possible. I'm just going to give you the facts about what he has very visibly done.
D1, he has a hard scumread on EuchreJack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321863#msg8321863). Vector does not scumread Jack. Tric does not. Even I do not, although I vote him to stay alive because I don't really trust my ability to read people D1. Toony, in every previous game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8318968#msg8318968), has confidently and perfectly read EuchreJack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8316244#msg8316244)D1. But now, apparently, it's natural for him to get that completely wrong.
Toony has also been on every single mislynch. Which is a pretty strong deviation from his previous play. The Max lynch perhaps isn't as incriminating as the other two, but taken with the other two it's pretty odd.
Toony just claimed that there's a multi-tasking even-nights only mafiakill with some weird property that also stopped his action, while his ability is in fact a "gun-or-cop-smith". In other words, he claims there's only one mafia and they get to kill once every two days, while he has a gunsmith ability that's specifically blind to cop-claims for some reason, in a situation where his supposed mafia is pretty likely to end up showing their deflector power very quickly because a captain know who they are and so couldn't reasonably cop-claim. Which is all pretty obviously ridiculous.
Toony has played a mostly strong mafia game. It's just that things are catching up with him, and he's struggling to explain them.
I on the other hand tried to warn town D1 that engaging with Max was pretty much always the way it was, expressed reservations (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322960#msg8322960)about his lynch D2, told town exactly my result D3 even though it made no sense to anyone including me, and have been the first to claim after every night but N3, in which it was pretty obvious that I deflected Vector onto Tric. If I were mafia with a multitask kill, I'd at least have tried to steal a gun, not protect Vector from what I thought was a 2-person scumteam.
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 08:30:33 am
Roden flipped town, so we can trust that he used the repel:Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.It's essentially a one-way target-specific role block.
So... Tric not being able to interact with me is why your action failed? This is going to be interesting.Quote(1-Shot, Night) Repel [target]: Choose a player (you do not visit your choice). You use magnetic dust on your target, causing their action to fail if it would visit your chosen player.
Important question.
Who did Roden target N2? Cause Repel simply prevents people from interacting with a player. Question is is it just that person, or everyone.
(Auto) Orders: Instead of being able to choose your own action target, your target is selected for you by the Captain. You may still choose not to act. If the Captain dies, you lose the ability to act if they were Town and gain the ability to act freely if they were non-Town.
(1-Shot, Night) Jailkeep [target]: You use a set of locksmith’s tools to lock your target’s door shut, preventing them from acting but also protecting them from kill actions, this Night. They will be given a ‘you were roleblocked’ result if they attempted to act.
(1-Shot, Night) Rolestop [target]: You use a network of tripwires and chains to ensure that all actions used on your target tonight will fail, except this one.
(1-Shot, Night) Repel [target]: Choose a player (you do not visit your choice). You use magnetic dust on your target, causing their action to fail if it would visit your chosen player.
What's the difference between Rolestop and Repel? Web ordered Roden to target me, but Roden targeted NJW?
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 08:37:22 am
Ah, right. Toony never brought this up. Why did you never tell us who you deflected Web to? We focused on someone managing to bypass it Day 3, but we never learned who would have died instead.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 08:42:48 am
1. That's not how gunsmith works, this is either genuine ignorance or NJW is trying to discredit me. Gee I wonder which one.
2. I feel bad about the Jack lynch, it was like seeing Matrix 6 except I was there. I really felt their behavior was like Round 1. For Max shit happens and I don't know how they play. And for D3 it was a 50/50 shot between you and Roden it turns out.
3. This setup seems horribly townsided if you kill your ally, isn't it NJW? We don't know how the factional kill works but it must be more FoU oddness as only Web has died at night. Mafia literally haven't killed a single townie which is indeed bonkers.
4. Jack and Roden were on to you during the course of the game. You had no idea what was going on with Web which is why you killed him to try to get some breathing room and disable everyone, since you thought it would be very unlikely you'd have an ally inside the group, didn't you?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 08:53:53 am
Main issue here is that Toony would have had to try and kill me to get the action failed result.NJW claims they deflected Web to me. So I should have died if he's telling the truth I think.
Ah, right. Toony never brought this up. Why did you never tell us who you deflected Web to? We focused on someone managing to bypass it Day 3, but we never learned who would have died instead.
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 09:10:11 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 28, 2021, 09:13:34 am
Spoiler: replies to Toony's largely meaningless quibbles (click to show/hide)
Main issue here is that Toony would have had to try and kill me to get the action failed result.He is lying about the action failed result. He did not get an action failed result.
Ah, right. Toony never brought this up. Why did you never tell us who you deflected Web to? We focused on someone managing to bypass it Day 3, but we never learned who would have died instead.
As I say here, I deflected Web onto Toony N2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8323301#msg8323301). N1, I deflected him onto Max.
I did deflect Web onto Toony, but Toony was targeting web. My action gets bypassed without me being told if it would cause someone to self-target. Because, as you found out last round, FoU has some very particular ideas as a GM. I think the logic is that my action doesn't fail or change target, it's just the shield I create that fails.
That's why I spent all of D3 attempting to work out what was going on. Why wouldn't I just claim something easier - like deflecting myself or Toony onto someone, or simply not obeying Web because I didn't trust him, or having been roleblocked? Anything would be better as scum than what I actually did.
What's the difference between Rolestop and Repel? Web ordered Roden to target me, but Roden targeted NJW?Repel stops one specific player (the target) acting on another specific player. Roden claimed, and we should believe him, that he was forced to target you, and repelled from me. So for Toony's interpretation to make sense, Web would have had to order both roden and I to target you, from his perspective assigning roden's ability at random and losing his protection. Which I don't think is something Web would do. Especially as he gave himself two layers of protection the night before.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 09:49:51 am
Hope you're enjoying the fact that you're still in the game solely due to luck and town's incompetence :PYeah, sweat more buddy.
I did deflect Web onto Toony, but Toony was targeting web. My action gets bypassed without me being told if it would cause someone to self-target. Because, as you found out last round, FoU has some very particular ideas as a GM. I think the logic is that my action doesn't fail or change target, it's just the shield I create that fails.Why make hypotheticals on D3 instead of just asking the mod like you have today? It's only because you need to now.
That's why I spent all of D3 attempting to work out what was going on. Why wouldn't I just claim something easier - like deflecting myself or Toony onto someone, or simply not obeying Web because I didn't trust him, or having been roleblocked? Anything would be better as scum than what I actually did.Why wouldn't I just claim something easier? I'm under suspicious for this action failed result the same way you are for your non-deflection. Right now I think the most likely explanation is the solo mafia has a special ability you are taking advantage of. The Captain ally would not be aware of any of that so we're in the dark.
@Tric and Vector:
One of us is cornered, it's the question of which.
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 09:57:18 am
Post by: NJW2000 on October 28, 2021, 09:59:54 am
Quote
Why make hypotheticals on D3 instead of just asking the mod like you have today? It's only because you need to now.I needed to know D3, except FoU had made it pretty clear that we'd know if we were roleblocked or redirected, so I assumed something else must have happened. I freely admit I screwed up there, weird as FoU's convention is.
Quote
Why wouldn't I just claim something easier? I'm under suspicious for this action failed result the same way you are for your non-deflection. Right now I think the most likely explanation is the solo mafia has a special ability you are taking advantage of. The Captain ally would not be aware of any of that so we're in the dark.You didn't have any better ideas for claims, presumably.
And yeah, if Tric and Vector haven't clocked that one of us must be lying by now, I'd be pretty astonished.
NJW, Vote for Toony.Eh?
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 10:15:21 am
Kinda funny that is all you have to say. Are you still holding doubts?QuoteWhy make hypotheticals on D3 instead of just asking the mod like you have today? It's only because you need to now.I needed to know D3, except FoU had made it pretty clear that we'd know if we were roleblocked or redirected, so I assumed something else must have happened. I freely admit I screwed up there, weird as FoU's convention is.QuoteWhy wouldn't I just claim something easier? I'm under suspicious for this action failed result the same way you are for your non-deflection. Right now I think the most likely explanation is the solo mafia has a special ability you are taking advantage of. The Captain ally would not be aware of any of that so we're in the dark.You didn't have any better ideas for claims, presumably.
And yeah, if Tric and Vector haven't clocked that one of us must be lying by now, I'd be pretty astonished.NJW, Vote for Toony.Eh?
Post by: NJW2000 on October 28, 2021, 10:38:41 am
Sure though:
Toonyman
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 11:14:43 am
ok, unvote, this was just a trick I was trying to play on Tric....
Unvote. So Vector, right now we need to determine which is lying, and which is telling the truth. For Mafia to bypass Deflection, or for Mafia to have an option to cause actions to fail.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 11:26:41 am
Me being mafia would imply I am solo scum with a standard kill I can't even use every day, as NJW is stating that me killing Web only worked because I was their deflection target, which is bullshit. How is that fair for mafia? Even if that's how deflection works, NJW can say whatever he wants as he shoots Web while also planting suspicion on me.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 28, 2021, 11:48:42 am
NJW was the one thing preventing Web from dying on N2. Web still died.My ability cannot deflect someone if they'd self-target, yes. I can't beat the mafia in a 1v1, I just die at that point. You being mafia would imply you're solo scum with a standard kill you haven't successfully used every day. Mafia don't have to kill.
Me being mafia would imply I am solo scum with a standard kill I can't even use every day, as NJW is stating that me killing Web only worked because I was their deflection target, which is bullshit. How is that fair for mafia? Even if that's how deflection works, NJW can say whatever he wants as he shoots Web while also planting suspicion on me.
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 12:40:06 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 28, 2021, 01:27:03 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 02:45:07 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 07:03:32 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 28, 2021, 07:47:12 pm
I'm not going to be on given it's bedtime. But if Vector would tie, remove my vote. Not that I'm sure Fal would allow that.
Post by: NJW2000 on October 28, 2021, 07:49:57 pm
At least there's a 50/50 chance of winning if I do get ML'd. I know you know this Tric, but I feel compelled to reiterate that shooting Toony is really what you have to do in that case.
Looking over Toony's posts, I can't find any totally convincing evidence he's scum, which is frankly to be expected, he plays a pretty controlled daygame. Vector's communication-with-Web case isn't 100% convincing - Web is clearly fishing, it's just not obvious Toony understood. His claim does depend on me being mafia and having either a multi-task and a block nobody knows about, or some kind of Ascetic passive, neither of which are super likely. I'd say his arguments today have been weak, especially his claim that there could be a mafia+mafia ally with an even-nights-only kill, but I'm biased because I know they're unsound. And yeah, if you can imagine Town!Toony being on every mislynch in the game including Jack, while I play this chaotic and attention-drawing a daygame as mafia, alright then.
I guess that's all, really. I need to go to bed in a bit, and the day should be over a bit later.
Vector, I am going to be annoyed if you're mafia. Where are you?I'd also like it if Vector turned up, as you might have some faith in their analysis.
PPE: yeah, I'd really like it if Vector turned up, given that last post. No idea if FoU goes for that. Would be happy to extend if conditional voting isn't allowed.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 08:10:27 pm
Outline why NJW is mafia: (https://youtu.be/2MCOS3LKKkc)
1. Tric isn't mafia, this has been proven today via lack of quickhammer.
2. Tric has claimed Vector and Max are the same alignment. Max is town, thus Vector is town.
3. NJW tried to lynch Tric D1 because they claimed cop, then they switched their vote to Jack while also giving excuses that they didn't believe Jack was mafia.
4. NJW's N2 action claim should have prevented Web from dying, but this did not happen. In addition they didn't feel the need to check with the mod until the day after so that they could incriminate me.
5. The balance of the setup makes more sense if the solo mafia has some kind of special advantage, which we can infer NJW would have. At the same time, if we applied this reasoning to myself it is less convincing compared to NJW.
6. I would not kill Web as mafia, there is behavioral evidence. There isn't a clear indication with NJW.
PPE:
At least there's a 50/50 chance of winning if I do get ML'd. I know you know this Tric, but I feel compelled to reiterate that shooting Toony is really what you have to do in that case.On the same token, if I'm mislynched you need to shoot NJW tonight Tric. I don't believe he can self-deflect.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 08:30:30 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on October 28, 2021, 08:40:07 pm
I haven't seen NJW as mafia so as for their general post behavior and emotions I can't judge them as well. For example, their attitude towards other players under different circumstances, I can't tell on that front. It reminds me a lot of Jim's mafia play.Regardless of my alignment, I suspect this is something of an affront to Jim.
Vector: if you're willing to tie the vote, you need to be pretty sure you'll want to lynch Toony over me in the morning, wherever the kill lands. Otherwise you should simply vote me in order to prove to Tric that I'm Town, and take the 50% chance Tric's gun will kill Toony after I flip. Because Tric will quite likely shoot me if you cause a tie, and then there's a 50% chance the game will end then and there as Toony kills one of us, same odds as in the case where you eliminate me today. Unless Toony goes for a no-kill, but I don't see that happening, it'd be very hard for him to get better odds than this.
Unless of course you think you can persuade Tric not to shoot me tonight, or better yet to shoot Toonyman. His last post didn't make it explicit whether he would be willing to change his elimination target based on your reads or just really didn't want a nolynch, so I don't know, that one's up to your judgement.
Well, goodnight all.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 08:52:43 pm
So yes, I think your play in this game was good. I also personally struggle with single mafia setups.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 09:11:58 pm
Which means in your hypothetical scenario where I'm scum and you get hammered it only allows me a 25% chance of victory, not 50%.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 28, 2021, 09:14:14 pm
Post by: Vector on October 28, 2021, 10:56:01 pm
Vector, I am going to be annoyed if you're mafia. Where are you?
Hey, guess what, I was teaching like I'm employed to do.
Post by: Vector on October 28, 2021, 10:58:21 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 29, 2021, 08:17:09 am
Unvote. Any particular reasoning for that?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 29, 2021, 09:58:04 am
I would let Tric unvote so this game can end faster rather than have a tie in a game where mafia suck.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 29, 2021, 10:52:58 am
Or do you believe I'm a gunsmith but also mafia? A gunsmith mafia that wouldn't be able to find their ally since Web would have come back innocent. A gunsmith mafia that didn't kill anyone on N1 since Max didn't commute, although maybe they did since Roden jailkeeped them. A gunsmith mafia that somehow killed their ally on N2 because we're trusting NJW's word. A gunsmith mafia that did not even attempt to kill Vector on N3 which would have put the deciding vote in Tric's hands. A gunsmith mafia that would still lose 50% of the time even if NJW was hammered since Tric would shoot them. That is me? That is my role in this?
Tric, Vector is voting me because they don't believe me. The same reason you voted NJW over me. Vector will never stop not believing me. So whatever. You play the hand you're dealt and sometimes there's nothing you can do.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 29, 2021, 02:42:01 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 29, 2021, 03:29:31 pm
I would let Tric unvote so this game can end faster rather than have a tie in a game where mafia suck.Ultimately I can't really justify this as Tric's vote happened well after 2 AM. Technically speaking the Day should have ended then.
I'll have a longer break in between the end of this Round and the start of Round 4 though, so y'all can rest. Seems needed.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (2): NJW2000, Vector
TricMagic (0):
NJW2000 (2): ToonyMan, TricMagic
Vector (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (0):
3 to hammer.
The exhaustion seemed to suffuse the room just as much as it touched the hearts and minds of the final few players of the deadly game. On the one end of the room stood ToonyMan and TricMagic. On the other end of the room, Vector and NJW2000 stood together, united. The division was too much - their forces, equal.
The dark heart pulsed louder. The lights flickered.
Without unity there could be no force - no execution of the rot lurking within the hotel's halls.
As there was a tie, nobody was executed.
It is now Night 4. Night 4 will end at around 4 PM Saturday, Central/Forum time, or when all needed Night actions are available to process.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on October 30, 2021, 05:17:39 pm
The windows provided enough light to find the fallen body of NJW2000, demonstrably and provably innocent in all of this - there was no instrument of murder in his room, only a cryptic logbook.
NJW2000 was Town.
The logbook took some effort to decode, but it spoke of impossible powers and mundane janitorial shifts. The warping of space used to facilitate the cleaning of WUBA-Inc's bathrooms. The disconnect was humorous, but nobody could laugh.
Quote
Deflector (town):
(Auto) Orders: Instead of being able to choose your own action's primary target, your primary target is selected for you by the Captain. You may still choose not to act. If the Captain dies, you lose the ability to act if they were Town and gain the ability to act freely if they were non-Town.
(Night) Deflect [target1] [target2]: You tear open a wormhole, causing every player whose primary target matches your first target to change their primary target to your second target. The redirection will not occur if it would cause a player to self-target.
There was no energy left to laugh with. Just three exhausted survivors.
This was the end - of this iteration.
There was only one thing left to do.
Quote from: Votecount
ToonyMan (0):
TricMagic (0):
Vector (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (3): ToonyMan, TricMagic, Vector
2 to hammer.
Day 5 has begun, and will end on hammer, or in 48 hours - Monday, 5 PM, Central/Forum time.
Post by: TricMagic on October 30, 2021, 05:24:43 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 30, 2021, 05:25:12 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on October 30, 2021, 05:31:07 pm
Did you do anything Tric?
Did Vector give you anything last night?
Post by: TricMagic on October 30, 2021, 05:38:25 pm
Post by: Vector on October 30, 2021, 06:45:09 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 30, 2021, 06:47:24 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 30, 2021, 06:48:55 pm
Post by: Vector on October 30, 2021, 06:49:47 pm
Right, at this point I think you are mafia Vector. What were you thinking?
I've been cleared by two different cops. After Yesterday I knew you were likely to shoot NJW, but I thought they were town and I wanted to make sure there weren't two NKs after yesterday's tied vote.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 30, 2021, 09:01:40 pm
Vector
I think I understand what is going on. Vector has a delayed kill. That's why nobody died N1. That's why Web didn't die at night until N2. That's why NJW didn't die until N4. This is exactly why Vector wanted to vote me yesterday over NJW because NJW was already destined to die. That's also why Vector didn't give their 50% bulletproof to Tric. They're claiming they gave their 50% bulletproof to NJW, but that's likely false since NJW died anyway. It's Vector, holy shit.
Post by: Vector on October 30, 2021, 09:14:22 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 31, 2021, 08:00:23 am
Nice theory, except I gave Tric a gun two nights ago?That it is. But Vector. I'm not that dumb. Using a gun last night would result in 2 town dying, cause I fully expected you to die last night. Or me. Instead, NJW died.
So it comes down to mechanics, instinct, and logic. What needs to be asked is this, why was NJW the one killed? He couldn't deflect attacks back to himself, and Toony would need to ruin his only option of victory. Though maybe that's it, that a draw is better than a loss.
Vector, why did you tie the vote? What makes Toony so much worse than NJW?
Post by: ToonyMan on October 31, 2021, 01:34:07 pm
Post by: TricMagic on October 31, 2021, 01:56:38 pm
Vector, you are going to need to make a final case, lest Toony convinces me.
Post by: Vector on October 31, 2021, 07:41:05 pm
- I've been cleared by two cops, yourself included.
- My actions on nights 2 and 3 were publicly recorded. For N4 you can't actually record that I gave NJW a bulletproof vest, but I did. Regardless, I could not have killed N2 or N3.
- ToonyMan was communicating with Webadict in-thread. See my large case against him.
- I tied the vote because I had been pretty sure for three days running that ToonyMan was scum and I didn't end up feeling that way about NJW. Also, by conventional standards, with those numbers, it was MYLO. If we had launched NJW Toony would have been able to NK me and win. We only needed to yeet NJW if Toony/NJW were on a scumteam together, which I didn't think they were.
If you want to throw the game and let Toony convince you, that's fine. I don't really feel motivated to fight with someone who ignores their own inspection result + record that I couldn't have possibly killed on nights that kills happened + the fact that if I'm scum, I literally made a townie into a vig.
I'm town, but I'm getting pretty pissed off and ready to have this be over with.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 31, 2021, 09:16:46 pm
- I've been cleared by two cops, yourself included.We can't trust our results if you're a godfather or have some factional ability benefit as solo scum.
Nice theory, except I gave Tric a gun two nights ago?
- My actions on nights 2 and 3 were publicly recorded. For N4 you can't actually record that I gave NJW a bulletproof vest, but I did. Regardless, I could not have killed N2 or N3.Multi-tasking!
- ToonyMan was communicating with Webadict in-thread. See my large case against him.Bait by Web to falsely implicate me!
If you want to throw the game and let Toony convince you, that's fine. I don't really feel motivated to fight with someone who ignores their own inspection result + record that I couldn't have possibly killed on nights that kills happened + the fact that if I'm scum, I literally made a townie into a vig.If Tric votes wrong today then they'll get endgamed. I don't think they can act as a vig anymore with your gun. So it's not even a 50/50 anymore like if we hit town yesterday, which was guaranteed to happen between me and NJW. Another reason you would want a tie yesterday as now today is definitive.
I had no reason to kill Web! I had no reason to kill NJW! In fact, these deaths are horrible for me if I was mafia. The odd nature of these deaths and process of elimination has led me to conclude that you, Vector, must be a beefed up solo scum to make up for the fact that the game could end immediately on Day 1 if you were voted for elimination.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 31, 2021, 09:23:45 pm
Another reason you would want a tie yesterday as now today is definitive.Well, a tie or for me to be lynched yesterday. As a tie would still likely lead to my death today unless Tric voted against you.
Post by: ToonyMan on October 31, 2021, 09:26:49 pm
If Vector/MS, then either MS did the kill and got blocked, or Vector did the kill and targeted me (They wouldn't do that, would they??? :()Web might have knew he was targeted by Vector?
Post by: Vector on October 31, 2021, 11:39:09 pm
Then you claim that I would have targeted him N2, when he again selected my target as Captain, and I was targeting Roden. I gave Roden an inspect.
OK, so I'm a multitasking 50-50 inventor godfather. Web had the names of all of his minions' roles, and revealed that I was a 50-50 inventor at the start of D2 before I had revealed my own role in thread, so he would have known that I was a multitasker godfather and therefore known that I was the solo scum he was looking for. I knew that he knew I was scum and we were on the same team because he redacted my rolename in his declaration, which is why on N2 I decided to give Roden a present and kill my scumbuddy.
Then N3 I decided not to kill, and gave Tric a gun. And on N4 I both made NJW bulletproof and shot him.
You're basically saying "I, Toony, cannot be scum because the game would not be balanced and I would have been playing badly when I shot Web and NJW. As for the interactions in-thread, I was being framed!"
At some point, we have to use Occam's razor. What makes the most sense? What is logical?
You played a good game, bud, but it's time to give up. You've lost.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 11:34:13 am
Vector, you were the hammer vote on Maximum Spin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8323034#msg8323034) as well as the hammer vote on Roden (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8323973#msg8323973). The same way Webadict was the hammer vote on Jack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322448#msg8322448). As long as it wasn't yourself you would go for it, and why not? You were "cleared" by both cops in the setup!
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 11:40:10 am
In Web's role flip it says the mafia factional kill is separate from the captain's orders:
(If a Mafia player is tied to your Authority, usage of their factional ability is exempt from this requirement. Furthermore, the players affected by Authority can still choose to take no action.)If you have a delayed killed - which I suspect - then you simply targeted Web with it on N1 and that's why they perished on N2.
Then N3 I decided not to kill, and gave Tric a gun. And on N4 I both made NJW bulletproof and shot him.No, you targeted NJW on N3 with your kill while also giving Tric a gun. You didn't give NJW a bulletproof obviously since that would protect him from dying.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 11:43:56 am
You played a good game, bud, but it's time to give up. You've lost.The game's not over because you couldn't lynch me yesterday Vector.
If I was lynched yesterday I would have flipped town, and Tric would have attempted to shoot NJW at night to try to stop mafia from winning, but it wouldn't have mattered! Since NJW would have died anyway wouldn't they? Tric never would have tried to shoot you last night so a win was guaranteed if I was lynched, which almost happened if Tric's unvote was allowed!
Post by: TricMagic on November 01, 2021, 12:58:40 pm
... I suppose the other point would be you on every lynch. But so was I.
Parity 1-shot, gunsmith/copsensor, 50/50 Inventor(limited), deflector, interference JOAT, Ally Captain, and Commuter. And bodyguard.
.... In order for a delayed kill to work, Vector would have needed to bypass deflection. Which is an issue in the first place?
... ToonyMan Let the chips fall where they may. Also Shoot Vector Tonight. The main issue here is the whole Copsensor thing. If you are mafia vector, this trick won't ever work again.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 01:19:45 pm
... ToonyMan Let the chips fall where they may. Also Shoot Vector Tonight. The main issue here is the whole Copsensor thing. If you are mafia vector, this trick won't ever work again.The game is over now Tric. You can't shoot Vector tonight even if you wanted to, that's how being endgame'd works.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on November 01, 2021, 01:22:45 pm
That's hammer. eat shit webby ':V
Post by: webadict on November 01, 2021, 01:37:10 pm
Post by: webadict on November 01, 2021, 01:38:01 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 01:42:27 pm
I considered Vector as the normal sane choice for N2, but I didn't think it would be as fun. Oh well. D3 would have been me, Tric, Web, Roden, and NJW. I could almost guarantee we would have been able to get a mislynch on Roden or NJW for game.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 01:48:24 pm
Alos, why did the Mafia get gimped so hard?!I was a Role Cop that could only kill every other night. I had multi-tasking and a strongkill but it didn't matter at all. I was basically fucked on my own.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 01, 2021, 01:58:45 pm
MVP to Vector for scumreading Toony hard D3 and then dealing with all the nonsense I introduced into the game with my panic about a 2-player mafia and not understanding my ability.
Quote from: Toonyman
I did wonder briefly if that happened - I assumed Vector must have been wrong about the "communication in thread" thing otherwise, but their case seemed very tight. I didn't really think you were mafia, I just wanted to interact with someone I didn't think I'd ever manage to read without mechanical info.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I would like to know the extent to which you two were actually communicating in-thread, if you don't mind telling us.
Alos, why did the Mafia get gimped so hard?!It was very weird that my ability had four major weaknesses (captain control, no self-target, no causing self-targets, not being told about some failures) but then this one very specific strength in that if one mafia targets their ally they kill their ally through the protection and instantly out themselves to me. So Toony kinda stepped on a mine there, no real way he could have seen it coming. In fact, I struggled to see it coming after it happened. Don't know enought to speculate on the game balance more generally, but it looked like you had a pretty hard job.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 02:06:54 pm
I would like to know the extent to which you two were actually communicating in-thread, if you don't mind telling us.
I realized Web was trying to do something here in this post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321803#msg8321803) He italicized some words, notably "alignment" and "scumbuddies" at the bottom. Web is a crafty player though, so I was worried he was town trying to find the mafia by pretending to be an ally. So I only responded vaguely and jokingly. I shouldn't have bothered to respond in any way and just kept it to myself without contacting him, since as Vector has shown it can look pretty incriminating.
Post by: webadict on November 01, 2021, 02:19:00 pm
... What. That's so BAD. But WHY?!Alos, why did the Mafia get gimped so hard?!I was a Role Cop that could only kill every other night. I had multi-tasking and a strongkill but it didn't matter at all. I was basically fucked on my own.
I was actually ready to claim blocking you on a mafiakill the following Night, so we would be able to win. I actually thought I was wrong after that because I assumed NJW had killed me, but that would take a coordinated effort. It's possible you would've turned on me at that point, but I'd probably accept it.
This game was stacked against us hard, and we almost won.
Also, wtf Tric?
Post by: TricMagic on November 01, 2021, 02:20:39 pm
Post by: webadict on November 01, 2021, 02:25:02 pm
I would like to know the extent to which you two were actually communicating in-thread, if you don't mind telling us.We weren't. That was an assumption by Vector. I left clues because I didn't want to die by the nightkill! I was actually trying to pretend I was fake Mafia, so I could off myself if things looked bad for the real Mafia.
The only reason I thought it was Toony is because he claimed Gunsmith and didn't change his role claim the following Day. As Town, he would've lied about the first role. Also, it was the only role that didn't really fit in (either that and/or the Deflector were Mafia, which I referenced in another post to Toony.)
If anything, I was actually roleplaying as Survivor. The goal was to be super Townie but also not TOO Townie so I could throw down at Lylo.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 02:37:58 pm
Tric's ability was extremely good and I wanted to kill him at night, but I wanted to wait until N2 since he wouldn't have useful info until then. Unfortunately, Tric was lying about their role and actually cleared Max and Vector on N1 alone. That was the best case scenario for him to only find two town and not any of the scum, but it was still extremely powerful and difficult to deal with. It was smart of him to lie about how his role worked, as otherwise I would have tried to kill him N1. After that there was no point in killing him anymore.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 01, 2021, 02:52:49 pm
Post by: webadict on November 01, 2021, 04:31:09 pm
I am wayward Cassandra, o woe is me!I think this is the most fitting quote for me this game.
While, yes, I definitely left a million clues for what I was, I also wasn't extraordinarily out of my Town meta. The only bad execution I made was actually EuchreJack, since I was about 85% sure they were Town. MaximumSpin I would've absolutely gone for as Town, especially because it absolutely felt like Vector was scum trying to cover for them. Heck, Vector cherry-picked some quotes that were absolutely NOT intended to send a message and left out quotes that condemned them as well. I left a lot of little remarks that could've easily been used against Vector, for that matter.
Oh, also, the reason I had everyone target me on N1 was to figure out who was scum. It didn't matter if Vector handed out an invention or not. In fact, I assumed Vector wouldn't give me an invention either way, and that was more of a way to incriminate them if they were Town. Unfortunately, I actually figured they might've been scum at the end of Day 2, so I set up the actions so that they'd have a chance to turn things around (Since I'd claim the RB on them) if they were scum, but ALSO on the off-chance that ToonyMan and someone else was scum.
However, my calculations were majorly destroyed by... SO MANY FACTORS. If I had been Mafia, like actually Mafia, the game still would've been difficult to win. I think the only reason it was as close as it was was because TricMagic was so thoroughly convinced ToonyMan was Town. Without that, we should've lost on Day 3. Hold on, let me list the ways the game was heavily tilted towards Town:
1.) The Mafia role. That's pretty easy to see. Every other Night killer?? One unknown teammate?? A Role Cop?? All of that is super duper Town favored.
2.) The Deflector. Not because of its deflection abilities, but because redirection NOTIFIES THE TARGET. That means that the Cops are essentially 100% truthful. That means that the Deflector's ability is confirmable.
3.) The Parity Cop. H-O-L-Y cow. A PARITY COP WITH ONE MAFIA?!? That's fucking nuts. Like, 1-shot on Night 1 where the MAFIA HAS NO KILLS/REDIRECTIONS/ROLEBLOCKS?! What could the Mafia DO against that?!? Since Deflections would notify the target, there's nothing I could've done to skew the results. Those results were a guaranteed part of the game. IT ALSO DOESN'T WORK IF THE TARGET DIES, BUT THE TARGET COULDN'T DIE ON N1?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!? I have no further words.
4.) The Captain role. This isn't about the role itself. It had a lot of power in it. The problem is two-fold: First, I had no idea what the roles under me were capable of. That, on its own, wasn't too bad. I could reasonably infer what they did for the most part. The second, though, is that when I die, ALL OF THOSE ROLES ARE CONFIRMED TO BE IN THE GAME.
5.) The Inventor had A BULLETPROOF VEST FOR AN EVERY OTHER NIGHT KILLER. WHAT. Sure, it's offset by being 50%, but that mostly makes the role feel super bad as opposed to making the role balanced.
6.) The Commuter. We got super lucky that Maximum Spin didn't explain what happened well. Had they said what actually happened, we would've had an essentially unkillable Townie.
7.) The Bodyguard. Combining this with the Parity Cop also would've made this game pretty broken.
8.) The Mafia-Ally. Why was the Mafia-Ally even in the game? If I were Mafia with all of the other factors, that might be a bit better. We could've worked together a lot better, even with a kill on every other Night. It still would've been Town-sided, but at least there would've been tools at our disposal. If the single Mafia had been executed Day 1, I would've lost!
Hoo boy, that's a tough game to win...
Post by: ToonyMan on November 01, 2021, 04:47:40 pm
Basically I had a choice at the start of the game to be a multi-tasking rolecop/killer on odd nights or a strongman killer on even nights. The latter sounded more desirable.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 01, 2021, 05:14:53 pm
And to be honest managing the power level here is tricky and I may have swung it a bit badly this time. Hopefully I can skew it towards the center for Round 4.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 01, 2021, 05:15:35 pm
6.) The Commuter. We got super lucky that Maximum Spin didn't explain what happened well. Had they said what actually happened, we would've had an essentially unkillable Townie.I'm only one person. I thought I conveyed it pretty clearly, what would you have said?
Post by: Roden on November 01, 2021, 05:25:05 pm
I was honestly shocked that NJW2k wasn't mafia. I thought him and Toonyman were the team (and they were just busing each other) right up until he died. The major wrong assumption I had was that the setup wouldn't be so, uh, bad as to only have one severely gimped member. Toonyman and webadict as actual scum seems like it would have worked better, but webadict was too obviously an ally.More or less the same with me. I honestly thought NJW was mafia because the NK and night actions made no sense. I didn't vote Toony because I knew one of NJW/Toony had to be mafia, but it looked like NJW was taking advantage of Tric's tunnel on me to set me up to get lynched in the scenario where NJW-mafia Toony-town and we mislynch Toony with me as the deciding vote. And if both were mafia NJW never votes Toony. So I just felt defeated and gave up, especially since Tric's tunnel felt unreasonable and everyone's accusations were all speculation based and contradicted the apparent mass town read I had the two days prior.
Post by: Roden on November 01, 2021, 05:28:13 pm
We all assumed it was auto if true, and since you got jailed and copped it looked like you were lying. Nobody realized that you had to activate it.6.) The Commuter. We got super lucky that Maximum Spin didn't explain what happened well. Had they said what actually happened, we would've had an essentially unkillable Townie.I'm only one person. I thought I conveyed it pretty clearly, what would you have said?
Post by: webadict on November 01, 2021, 05:34:56 pm
You should've claimed X-Shot Commuter (You can hide the number of shots, if you want) or you claim that you are an activated Commuter, but you needed to claim that you didn't activate your ability more obviously than you did. The issue is that you claimed to be a Commuter, which sort of has implications that you automatically commute. Had you claimed your full role (2-shot Commuter), people would have instantly known you hadn't used your ability. It was a bit clearer in hindsight that you didn't commute, but you seemed to say that your commuting stopped the kill, but the kill wouldn't've bounced to you if you were commuting. It was a bit confusing.6.) The Commuter. We got super lucky that Maximum Spin didn't explain what happened well. Had they said what actually happened, we would've had an essentially unkillable Townie.I'm only one person. I thought I conveyed it pretty clearly, what would you have said?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 01, 2021, 06:53:51 pm
You should've claimed X-Shot Commuter (You can hide the number of shots, if you want) or you claim that you are an activated Commuter, but you needed to claim that you didn't activate your ability more obviously than you did. The issue is that you claimed to be a Commuter, which sort of has implications that you automatically commute. Had you claimed your full role (2-shot Commuter), people would have instantly known you hadn't used your ability. It was a bit clearer in hindsight that you didn't commute, but you seemed to say that your commuting stopped the kill, but the kill wouldn't've bounced to you if you were commuting. It was a bit confusing.I see. I did not actually know how commuters normally work. I don't think I've ever played a game with the role before. I didn't want to specify how many shots I had, but you're right, I could have been clearer that it was at least shotted.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 02, 2021, 01:51:48 am
Quote from: Votecount
ToonyMan (2): Vector, TricMagic
TricMagic (0):
Vector (1): ToonyMan
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (0):
2 to hammer.
Vector and ToonyMan wrestled against each other, both physically and with verbosity.
"You've played a good game, Toony, but your true nature is obvious now!"
"What true nature? I'm not the liar here! Tric, help me out here!"
TricMagic ended up being the deciding factor. He watched the fighters with a hint of dread in his expression, then made his choice.
It seemed, though, that he made the right one.
A search of ToonyMan's room revealed strange powders, an elegant mask, and most importantly - a neatly cleaned, high-power revolver. An antique, but a magnificent one - and no doubt functional.
ToonyMan was Mafia.
Quote
Odd Night Multitasking Even Night Strong Role Cop (mafia):
(Auto) Odd Night Multitasking: During odd-numbered Nights, you may take an additional action as long as it isn’t the same as the first action you took.
(Auto) Even Night Strong: Your actions bypass all failure-causing effects, such as a role block or Doctor protection, as long as the Night is even-numbered. You may still have your target changed, and this effect does not bypass a commute action.
(Night) Role Cop [target]: You use telepathy to invade the target’s mind and steal the secrets of their role - and learn their entire role, but not their alignment.
Vector cracked a tired smile as they looked over at TricMagic. "Right, that's enough... let's get out of here. Can't be any traitors left now."
The doors to the hotel opened. They were finally free. Time would not release them, however.
Round 3 has ended! Town won, and as such, Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, and Maximum Spin all gain 1 Victory Point!
An elegantly carved gear cracked.
New roles will be designed with greater care, then sent out at Friday, Central/Forum time, midnight.
I'll post the Round summary when I get up in the morning. I'll freely admit that my attempts to create a more balanced setup actually created the opposite this time, and I apologize for that.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 03, 2021, 10:20:54 pm
Before I post the stuff, I'll go ahead and say that I think I rushed the setup a bit too hard here. The mistakes are obvious in hindsight. Live and learn as the case may be.
Quote from: Roles
webadict:
Captain (mafia-ally):
(Auto) Authority: You have command over the players with the roles 50% Inventor, Deflector, and Interference JOAT. If you do not use Command during the Day, it will be automatically used at Day end with random selections. If you die, the players bound to you lose the ability to act if you were Town and gain the ability to act freely if you were non-Town.
(Day) Command: You decide in advance what the Night-action primary targets of the players under your command must be. Each player affected by Authority will be made aware of your choice for them when the Night starts. (If a Mafia player is tied to your Authority, usage of their factional ability is exempt from this requirement. Furthermore, the players affected by Authority can still choose to take no action.)
Roden:
Interference JOAT (town):
(Auto) Orders: Instead of being able to choose your own action target, your target is selected for you by the Captain. You may still choose not to act. If the Captain dies, you lose the ability to act if they were Town and gain the ability to act freely if they were non-Town.
(1-Shot, Night) Jailkeep [target]: You use a set of locksmith’s tools to lock your target’s door shut, preventing them from acting but also protecting them from kill actions, this Night. They will be given a ‘you were roleblocked’ result if they attempted to act.
(1-Shot, Night) Rolestop [target]: You use a network of tripwires and chains to ensure that all actions used on your target tonight will fail, except this one.
(1-Shot, Night) Repel [target]: Choose a player (you do not visit your choice). You use magnetic dust on your target, causing their action to fail if it would visit your chosen player.
Vector:
50% Inventor (town):
(Auto) Orders: Instead of being able to choose your own action target, your target is selected for you by the Captain. You may still choose not to act. If the Captain dies, you lose the ability to act if they were Town and gain the ability to act freely if they were non-Town.
(Night) Invent [target]: You grant your target your choice from a 1-Shot 50% Bulletproof, a 1-Shot 50% Kill, or a 1-Shot 50% Voyeur. You must use all three of your available choices before you can repeat a choice. Abilities you gift will not appear in roleflips as they are not part of your target’s original role.QuoteReference:
(1-Shot, Auto) 50% Bulletproof: This shoddy vest provides weak protection. If you would be killed, this ability is expended and you have a 50% chance to survive the kill.
(1-Shot, Night) 50% Kill [target]: This improvised gun provides a chance to kill. There is a 50% chance you kill your target and a 50% chance this action fails.
(1-Shot, Night) 50% Voyeur [target]: These faulty binoculars allow you to try and get the gist of what’s happening to your target. You have a 50% chance to learn what categories of actions were performed on your target during this Night, and a 50% chance for this action to fail. Available categories: Investigative, Interference, Protective, Lethal, Other.
NJW2000:
Deflector (town):
(Auto) Orders: Instead of being able to choose your own action’s primary target, your primary target is selected for you by the Captain. You may still choose not to act. If the Captain dies, you lose the ability to act if they were Town and gain the ability to act freely if they were non-Town.
(Night) Deflect [target1] [target2]: You tear open a wormhole, causing every player whose primary target matches your first target to change their primary target to your second target. The redirection will not occur if it would cause a player to self-target.
Maximum Spin:
2-Shot Commuter (town):
(2-Shot, Night) Commute: You temporarily exit the game by hiding on the roof of the hotel in a sleeping bag, granting you absolute immunity to all Night actions. (Players who attempt to act on you will receive a ‘your action failed’ result.) Your sleeping bag will wear out after you do this twice, however.
TricMagic:
1-Shot Parity Cop (town):
(1-Shot, Night) Parity Cop [target1] [target2]: You inspect the auras of your two targets, and learn whether your first target’s alignment is the same as your second target’s alignment, or different. If either of your targets dies tonight, this action fails, but this action’s shot is not used up.
EuchreJack:
Bodyguard (town):
(Night) Protect [target]: You guard your target, protecting them from up to one kill action performed this Night. If you successfully prevent a kill action, however, you will be hit with its effects instead (this will not change the targeting of the action).
ToonyMan:
Odd Night Multitasking Even Night Strong Role Cop (mafia):
(Auto) Odd Night Multitasking: During odd-numbered Nights, you may take an additional action as long as it isn’t the same as the first action you took.
(Auto) Even Night Strong: Your actions bypass all failure-causing effects, such as a role block or Doctor protection, as long as the Night is even-numbered. You may still have your target changed, and this effect does not bypass a commute action.
(Night) Role Cop [target]: You use telepathy to invade the target’s mind and steal the secrets of their role - and learn their entire role, but not their alignment.
(Factional, Night) Honor Duel [target]: You kill your target in a gentleman’s duel. If you successfully kill them, you may not attempt to use this action during the next Night.
Spoiler: Actions (click to show/hide)
Post by: ToonyMan on November 04, 2021, 07:48:28 pm
How are you going to handle the private chats without Quicktopic now?
Post by: TricMagic on November 04, 2021, 08:37:53 pm
On a second inspection you find a logbook within the "professional" killer's belongings. (https://quicktopic.com/53/H/c8eTn5uLy9U)You know, I saw Message 15, web's post, while looking through the pages. Which was a part of why I decided the way I did. Cause web wasn't town. Anything he said was suspect. (HAHAHA to quote Toony.)
How are you going to handle the private chats without Quicktopic now?
Post by: TricMagic on November 04, 2021, 08:39:27 pm
Oh man, I missed this. You guys are just so easy. No wonder Tric never wins as Mafia.Well, it was actually this post I saw. But that one gives the same energy.
So, Tric is probably Town because he's obviously stupid. Roden might be Town, but he'll be an absolute drag on the Town if he is, which is unfortunate. Vector is probably Mafia. ToonyMan is... Maybe Town. It wouldn't matter if he's Mafia because he won't be dying tonight regardless. Waiting on EuchreJack, but if Vector is Mafia like I think they are, then it's not EJ based on the Gambler's Fallacy, which would, in fact, leave it as either NJW2000 or Maximum Spin as the last Mafia. NJW2000 is not out of meta, so I'd be willing to leave them as neutral, and thus, it's Maximum Spin and Vector.Being right and being weak are not mutually exclusive. You should consider reading comprehension if you think I'm pointing out your ability to find scum as weak.webadictWow that got screwed up.
I was going to say that I can easily verify if you're telling the truth. You can say I'm a weak player but I caught you in D6 before you subbed out, and I called out both scum in the first round one after the other. If you want to underestimate me then I'm more than with not being fear killed tonight.
Wait, no, that might be my post. Opps. Hehe.
Message 31 is also funny. :>
Post by: webadict on November 04, 2021, 10:00:16 pm
@ToonyMan: I never said you were Town. Only that I would call you Town. There's a subtle difference.I was actually signaling you back here :(
Post by: EuchreJack on November 04, 2021, 10:19:20 pm
@ToonyMan: I never said you were Town. Only that I would call you Town. There's a subtle difference.I was actually signaling you back here :(
Apparently not good enough...
Post by: ToonyMan on November 04, 2021, 10:41:39 pm
I wasn't lying when I responded to Vector about having trouble reading Web. Normally when we're both town it's easy, but in this case we were both mafia and didn't know each other. This is a very odd and rare scenario I don't have much experience with. Jim and Irony did it perfectly in Bastard Paranormal 2 and I feel that would have happened here if I just killed Vector instead.
I felt there was a good chance the deflection would hit town since NJW was the only other possible ally if Web weren't. The blindspot was that if NJW was town there was a good chance he would target ME, which I should have realized and just went for Vector instead. That single kill decision between Vector and Web likely determined the game. I was extremely confused and devastated when not only Web was my ally, but also that they died.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 04, 2021, 10:55:24 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 06, 2021, 02:22:19 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 06, 2021, 07:35:40 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 07, 2021, 01:27:25 am
Round 4 begins!
It was daytime, but the curtains were thick and heavy - and splattered with old, dead blood. Attempts to move them aside could only be partially successful at best. Someone ignited an old lantern to illuminate the room. Tension bloomed.
The fridge and pantry were nearly empty. Quickly, a rationing system was developed to ensure there would be enough to eat.
A great grandfather clock ticked and rocked and marched on. It cast a dark shadow over the room.
Some glinting of the limited light made the voting board seem to glow a dim red.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (8): ToonyMan, Roden, TricMagic, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, webadict, Maximum Spin
5 to hammer.
Day 1 has begun, and will end at 1 AM, Tuesday, Central/Forum time. Votes or unvotes that happen after that point will not be counted, to be completely clear. This is around 48 hours from now. Hammers are still in effect.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 07, 2021, 01:38:24 am
I think this game will have exactly two mafia if I can read FoU correctly. I don't think we would get an ally again this round since FoU would try to overcorrect since they have stated they weren't happy with last game's setup. So I will work under this assumption for the time being.
Meanwhile it's obvious NJW and Max are mafia. I don't think you could argue otherwise. FoU has been very deliberately rolling alignments on us players. What are the chances that the players that hadn't rolled mafia yet are the only ones that get mafia in these rounds? Somebody run the numbers on this as it's pretty obvious I'm right.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 01:59:13 am
I'll just ignore any "but you said that was bad logic last game!", since you were lying mafia scum last game.
Based upon last game, probing Max would be useless. NJW hasn't "earned" a second vote yet.
@Roden: Your thoughts declaring roles?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 02:34:26 am
I could believe it was NJW, but I need a better reason than "assume a defective RNG". You don't necessarily have to set the world on fire to get me to vote, but this doesn't even start a flame in my heart.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 02:59:47 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 03:06:40 am
@Maximum Spin: What are your thoughts on Toonyman's first post?I don't think Toonyman is really that dumb, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's mafia. It's not a good first-post look, though.
EuchreJack, what do you think of TricMagic's first post? Try to be as specific as possible.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 07, 2021, 07:42:14 am
-Good stuff Toony. The chance of the roles being assigned exactly as they were in the last three games is already 1/(7!)(7!)(8!), in other words 0.000000000097638%, so your case looks pretty watertight already. More seriously, I know what this play is and I don't like engaging with it.
-This is bad logic, and you were right to say so last game. I see your point about the probing Max thing, in that you can't really expect to read someone whose town game is so deeply scum-sided, but generally speaking I don't like excuses for not scumhunting people, Jack. If you think one of Max and I are scum, you should at least be asking me questions.
Ok, let's try and discuss something that isn't just the gambler's fallacy. Deep breaths.
Vector: Assuming there are two mafia, rather than a mafia and a mafia-ally like last game, how much of a difference do you think coordination during the day will make? In a game as chaotic as these have been, do you think they'd have a chance at controlling the flow of play and the narrative?
Roden: How confident do you feel that you can recognise Toony's scum play after the last game?
Webadict: How are you planning to take advantage of the fact that half the players here are given to semi-truthfully roleclaiming almost immediately D1 come hell or high water?
TricMagic: do you think scum will be looking to nolynch today? Why/why not?
MaximumSpin: Why ask questions about a post that hasn't happened yet?
Post by: Roden on November 07, 2021, 08:18:35 am
@Roden: Your thoughts declaring roles?It's been a consistently pro town game winning strategy to claim roles or at least half claim, mafia doesn't really get much wiggle room. Do you feel hesitant to claim this time?
I'm a Delayer btw.
Roden: How confident do you feel that you can recognise Toony's scum play after the last game?I don't feel confident at all lol. His scum play doesn't really seem that different to his town play, even his tone read the same to me until the endgame. He's really good at flying under the radar especially early on, so early pressure on him honestly might be a good idea from now on.
I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 08:19:56 am
@Maximum Spin: What are your thoughts on Toonyman's first post?I don't think Toonyman is really that dumb, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's mafia. It's not a good first-post look, though.
EuchreJack, what do you think of TricMagic's first post? Try to be as specific as possible.
TricMagic has not posted yet in this game, so I can't answer that. Did you by any chance mean Toonyman?
-This is bad logic, and you were right to say so last game. I see your point about the probing Max thing, in that you can't really expect to read someone whose town game is so deeply scum-sided, but generally speaking I don't like excuses for not scumhunting people, Jack. If you think one of Max and I are scum, you should at least be asking me questions.
I was waiting for you to post something upon which I could formulate questions. My thanks for the prompt entry into the game.
NJW, I'm noticing a higher level of aggression from you than in previous games. Why is that?
Also, and my apologies for "making this about me", but why did your post ignore the fact that I did in fact ask Max a question, and am in fact engaged in a minor dialog with them. Or, why are you taking it so personally?
Why no questions for the Toonyman?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 08:27:01 am
I'm assuming Toony is making a play here, I don't take him to be the type use RNG as an actual case against somebody. Toony, what's your role?@Roden: Your thoughts declaring roles?It's been a consistently pro town game winning strategy to claim roles or at least half claim, mafia doesn't really get much wiggle room. Do you feel hesitant to claim this time?
I'm a Delayer btw.
I'll throw in my role. I will say that I can tell if someone was targeted by an action. Anyone else want to volunteer some info?
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 08:53:18 am
I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.Nah, the right play here is that ToonyMan is actually Town. ToonyMan is so Town that I plan to pocket him without ever engaging with him. Thus, my play has begun. MUAHAHAHA!
I'll throw in my role. I will say that I can tell if someone was targeted by an action. Anyone else want to volunteer some info?i will not be volunteering information unless Forced to, as my role can determine If others are lying. Or maybe it can't, who can tell? I'm not a lie detector. the mafia will naturally assume this is a Soft/Hardclaim, and they'll be wrong. it's actually a fAkeCLAiM, NERDS!
Webadict: How are you planning to take advantage of the fact that half the players here are given to semi-truthfully roleclaiming almost immediately D1 come hell or high water?Ummm... Sure, let's play that game. Usually anyone that claims immediately is more likely to be Town, and some players can be ascertained to be Town from this, since I very much wouldn't expect them to fakeclaim early. This list includes EuchreJack, TricMagic, and, perhaps surprisingly, Vector. The first two for obvious reasons, and the last because if Vector fakeclaims, they use all their available information, and they wouldn't risk a fakeclaim early. They, also, wouldn't be claiming early, period, so this will never happen.
I don't think Toonyman is really that dumb, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's mafia. It's not a good first-post look, though.Wrong.
Post by: TricMagic on November 07, 2021, 08:54:41 am
Also, why you asking about my first post in advance Max?
Ninjadict
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 09:07:30 am
... It's Roden. Delayer isn't exactly townie, and we see how Toony's ealry gunsmith claim worked out last session.
Hm, but WHY is a claim of delayer not a townie claim, especially in one's first post (as in the case with Roden)?
I'll throw in my role. I will say that I can tell if someone was targeted by an action. Anyone else want to volunteer some info?i will not be volunteering information unless Forced to, as my role can determine If others are lying. Or maybe it can't, who can tell? I'm not a lie detector. the mafia will naturally assume this is a Soft/Hardclaim, and they'll be wrong. it's actually a fAkeCLAiM, NERDS!
Hm, your first post was actually much more subdued than I expected from you, Webadict. Thanks, I guess. But, aren't most roles at least somewhat useful in determining if others are lying?
Post by: TricMagic on November 07, 2021, 09:15:35 am
The fact they are using it to hide. By saying what their role is so early without promting, us being delayed would be seen as normal, town trying to stop the kill. But all it does is delay us, resulting in mafia being able to take advantage of it. It's also trying to get roles to reveal, giving them options on who to delay.... It's Roden. Delayer isn't exactly townie, and we see how Toony's ealry gunsmith claim worked out last session.
Hm, but WHY is a claim of delayer not a townie claim, especially in one's first post (as in the case with Roden)?I'll throw in my role. I will say that I can tell if someone was targeted by an action. Anyone else want to volunteer some info?i will not be volunteering information unless Forced to, as my role can determine If others are lying. Or maybe it can't, who can tell? I'm not a lie detector. the mafia will naturally assume this is a Soft/Hardclaim, and they'll be wrong. it's actually a fAkeCLAiM, NERDS!
Hm, your first post was actually much more subdued than I expected from you, Webadict. Thanks, I guess. But, aren't most roles at least somewhat useful in determining if others are lying?
Put simply, just because they revealed, does not make them town. If anything Delayer is a very negative role regardless of who has it. For one, it would ruin my own role's ability if it's used on me N1.
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 09:53:05 am
The fact they are using it to hide. By saying what their role is so early without promting, us being delayed would be seen as normal, town trying to stop the kill. But all it does is delay us, resulting in mafia being able to take advantage of it. It's also trying to get roles to reveal, giving them options on who to delay.No thanks. TricMagic.
Put simply, just because they revealed, does not make them town. If anything Delayer is a very negative role regardless of who has it. For one, it would ruin my own role's ability if it's used on me N1.
Post by: TricMagic on November 07, 2021, 10:03:01 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 10:25:00 am
Hm, it would seem that Web would like you to claim your role, TricMagic. Or maybe it's just me. If you were town, would it not be best for you to either say more or less than what you have already said? Since you can't say any less any more, might as well tell us everything now.The fact they are using it to hide. By saying what their role is so early without promting, us being delayed would be seen as normal, town trying to stop the kill. But all it does is delay us, resulting in mafia being able to take advantage of it. It's also trying to get roles to reveal, giving them options on who to delay.No thanks. TricMagic.
Put simply, just because they revealed, does not make them town. If anything Delayer is a very negative role regardless of who has it. For one, it would ruin my own role's ability if it's used on me N1.
While we have heard from everyone I expect to hear from at this point (Vector doesn't usually post much D1), I think I'd like to see a few more posts before throwing up a reads list. But I think I can start voting NJW, at least.
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 10:38:32 am
That's not what I said at all. I don't believe TricMagic, is all. Calling Delayer Mafia, fine, whatever, but their reasoning is wrong. By claiming Delayer immediately, they're mitigating the effects of the role. By NOT claiming it, they'd be scummier, so TricMagic is wrong.Hm, it would seem that Web would like you to claim your role, TricMagic. Or maybe it's just me. If you were town, would it not be best for you to either say more or less than what you have already said? Since you can't say any less any more, might as well tell us everything now.The fact they are using it to hide. By saying what their role is so early without promting, us being delayed would be seen as normal, town trying to stop the kill. But all it does is delay us, resulting in mafia being able to take advantage of it. It's also trying to get roles to reveal, giving them options on who to delay.No thanks. TricMagic.
Put simply, just because they revealed, does not make them town. If anything Delayer is a very negative role regardless of who has it. For one, it would ruin my own role's ability if it's used on me N1.
While we have heard from everyone I expect to hear from at this point (Vector doesn't usually post much D1), I think I'd like to see a few more posts before throwing up a reads list. But I think I can start voting NJW, at least.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 10:50:51 am
Hm, so you're voting TricMagic because their logic is WRONG!? Uh, doesn't the TricMagic Town/Scum analysis work the other way, in that Logical Tric = Mafia Tric?That's not what I said at all. I don't believe TricMagic, is all. Calling Delayer Mafia, fine, whatever, but their reasoning is wrong. By claiming Delayer immediately, they're mitigating the effects of the role. By NOT claiming it, they'd be scummier, so TricMagic is wrong.Hm, it would seem that Web would like you to claim your role, TricMagic. Or maybe it's just me. If you were town, would it not be best for you to either say more or less than what you have already said? Since you can't say any less any more, might as well tell us everything now.The fact they are using it to hide. By saying what their role is so early without promting, us being delayed would be seen as normal, town trying to stop the kill. But all it does is delay us, resulting in mafia being able to take advantage of it. It's also trying to get roles to reveal, giving them options on who to delay.No thanks. TricMagic.
Put simply, just because they revealed, does not make them town. If anything Delayer is a very negative role regardless of who has it. For one, it would ruin my own role's ability if it's used on me N1.
While we have heard from everyone I expect to hear from at this point (Vector doesn't usually post much D1), I think I'd like to see a few more posts before throwing up a reads list. But I think I can start voting NJW, at least.
+2 Scum Points for House Webadict!
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 10:59:23 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 01:05:01 pm
MaximumSpin: Why ask questions about a post that hasn't happened yet?Because I wanted to know what he expected it to be.
TricMagic has not posted yet in this game, so I can't answer that. Did you by any chance mean Toonyman?Pursuantly, no, I didn't. By the way, I'm only one person.
@Maximum Spin & Webadict: What is your read on NJW so far?He's going 80 in a 35 zone.
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 01:26:15 pm
Hm, so you're voting TricMagic because their logic is WRONG!? Uh, doesn't the TricMagic Town/Scum analysis work the other way, in that Logical Tric = Mafia Tric?In a way, yes. Their conclusion is correct, but their leading information is not. But, if I'm fully reliant on that way of analyzing Tric, then I'd be under the impression that TricMagic can never get better, which is, in a way, completely dumb.
+2 Scum Points for House Webadict!
Call it intuition if you'd rather. I'd explain this vote a bit better, but I'd rather explain later. You can add some more scum points if you believe my explanation is unsatisfactory at that point, but I'd like TricMagic to explain more first.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 07, 2021, 01:48:41 pm
I don't think both would be the mafia team, although I think there is one mafia in NJW and Max.Hm, why? Is it because of my reasoning?
@Roden:
Toony, what's your role?Very deadly, very stupid. It works better if mafia don't know about it.
I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.I appreciate the thought. I usually get to coast during every Day 1 since people just assume I'm town.
Doesn't stop me from playing though.
@Webadict:
My savior is here. Dude this shit is so easy, Webadict is town. Boom only six people left to choose from.I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.Nah, the right play here is that ToonyMan is actually Town. ToonyMan is so Town that I plan to pocket him without ever engaging with him. Thus, my play has begun. MUAHAHAHA!
...As I was saying, people just assume I'm town on D1. Webadict especially likes to do this.
@TricMagic:
The fact they are using it to hide. By saying what their role is so early without promting, us being delayed would be seen as normal, town trying to stop the kill. But all it does is delay us, resulting in mafia being able to take advantage of it. It's also trying to get roles to reveal, giving them options on who to delay.Your vote on Roden is ass, but I understand the paranoid after my Gunsmith claim last round.
Put simply, just because they revealed, does not make them town. If anything Delayer is a very negative role regardless of who has it. For one, it would ruin my own role's ability if it's used on me N1.
That is the only justification your vote has. The rest of your reasoning is poor.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 07, 2021, 01:55:36 pm
Thank you, thank you. I would be lying if I said I wasn't being at least semi-serious.-Good stuff Toony. The chance of the roles being assigned exactly as they were in the last three games is already 1/(7!)(7!)(8!), in other words 0.000000000097638%, so your case looks pretty watertight already. More seriously, I know what this play is and I don't like engaging with it.
What do you think of Max so far, being the Maxpert? Can you promise to keep extra scrutiny on Max?-This is bad logic, and you were right to say so last game. I see your point about the probing Max thing, in that you can't really expect to read someone whose town game is so deeply scum-sided, but generally speaking I don't like excuses for not scumhunting people, Jack. If you think one of Max and I are scum, you should at least be asking me questions.
Jack is probably town by the way.
Post by: TricMagic on November 07, 2021, 01:58:54 pm
How about I justy target you tonight web. Then you will know, you're all KNOW! WUBA-INC's food is the best.Hm, so you're voting TricMagic because their logic is WRONG!? Uh, doesn't the TricMagic Town/Scum analysis work the other way, in that Logical Tric = Mafia Tric?In a way, yes. Their conclusion is correct, but their leading information is not. But, if I'm fully reliant on that way of analyzing Tric, then I'd be under the impression that TricMagic can never get better, which is, in a way, completely dumb.
+2 Scum Points for House Webadict!
Call it intuition if you'd rather. I'd explain this vote a bit better, but I'd rather explain later. You can add some more scum points if you believe my explanation is unsatisfactory at that point, but I'd like TricMagic to explain more first.
More seriously, why? In what world is the delay of action resolution positive to finding out what happened and didn't happen at night? Cop results are delayed, roleblocks don't work properly, and it doesn't stop the one delayed from just dying the next night, or that very night.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 02:02:42 pm
More seriously, why? In what world is the delay of action resolution positive to finding out what happened and didn't happen at night? Cop results are delayed, roleblocks don't work properly, and it doesn't stop the one delayed from just dying the next night, or that very night.Yeah but, the thing is, sometimes town get unproductive roles, or heavily counterbalanced ones. And in general, a mafia member who gets an anti-town role probably doesn't SAY so, whereas a town member who does very well might, since it lets everyone know ahead of time that it might come up.
It's POSSIBLE that Roden is mafia, but you can't just infer that from such a poor basis.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 07, 2021, 02:04:33 pm
Post by: TricMagic on November 07, 2021, 02:07:03 pm
I got nothing right now. Other than a headache and too much web.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 02:17:48 pm
How about I justy target you tonight web. Then you will know, you're all KNOW! WUBA-INC's food is the best.Hm, so you're voting TricMagic because their logic is WRONG!? Uh, doesn't the TricMagic Town/Scum analysis work the other way, in that Logical Tric = Mafia Tric?In a way, yes. Their conclusion is correct, but their leading information is not. But, if I'm fully reliant on that way of analyzing Tric, then I'd be under the impression that TricMagic can never get better, which is, in a way, completely dumb.
+2 Scum Points for House Webadict!
Call it intuition if you'd rather. I'd explain this vote a bit better, but I'd rather explain later. You can add some more scum points if you believe my explanation is unsatisfactory at that point, but I'd like TricMagic to explain more first.
I kinda wish you would do this. I can confirm whether or not Web was targeted.
Any ideas what that might mean about NJW's alignment? Null, Scum, Town, maybe leaning one way or the other? What does "Too fast" mean, to you?@Maximum Spin & Webadict: What is your read on NJW so far?He's going 80 in a 35 zone.
Hm, so you're voting TricMagic because their logic is WRONG!? Uh, doesn't the TricMagic Town/Scum analysis work the other way, in that Logical Tric = Mafia Tric?In a way, yes. Their conclusion is correct, but their leading information is not. But, if I'm fully reliant on that way of analyzing Tric, then I'd be under the impression that TricMagic can never get better, which is, in a way, completely dumb.
+2 Scum Points for House Webadict!
Call it intuition if you'd rather. I'd explain this vote a bit better, but I'd rather explain later. You can add some more scum points if you believe my explanation is unsatisfactory at that point, but I'd like TricMagic to explain more first.
And what are your thoughts on NJW? You haven't said anything regarding your thoughts on NJW yet, either positive or negative.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 02:24:46 pm
Any ideas what that might mean about NJW's alignment? Null, Scum, Town, maybe leaning one way or the other? What does "Too fast" mean, to you?I really don't want to give reads d1. It changes the facts on the ground too much. If I tell you what I think of what NJW is doing, then he also knows that, and what he does afterward has to be interpreted in light of his possession of that information. I don't like that kind of feedback loop.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 02:35:53 pm
Well, at least that matches what you said last round. Plus you were town last round, so good for you I guess.Any ideas what that might mean about NJW's alignment? Null, Scum, Town, maybe leaning one way or the other? What does "Too fast" mean, to you?I really don't want to give reads d1. It changes the facts on the ground too much. If I tell you what I think of what NJW is doing, then he also knows that, and what he does afterward has to be interpreted in light of his possession of that information. I don't like that kind of feedback loop.
@Jack:Technically, you stole my reasoning from last round and applied it here. So yes, it is because of "your" reasoning, because it is actually my own reasoning. Nothing from last round convinces me to abandon that reasoning, and I think the scum team last round actually reinforces it a bit.I don't think both would be the mafia team, although I think there is one mafia in NJW and Max.Hm, why? Is it because of my reasoning?
To be clear, my reasoning is that everyone but NJW and Max has gotten a turn as mafia so far. But our mod Fallacy can't just pick them as the scumteam or it would be "too obvious", so the scum team is probably one of them plus someone who was already scum. The question is which one. To keep it "fair and random", there should also be some sort of chance that neither is the scum team.
So far, I see irregularities in NJW's one post (we'll see if they continue in later posts), and Max was initially posting a bit different but has just recently gone back to form (see above).
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 02:44:20 pm
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 03:00:12 pm
And what are your thoughts on NJW? You haven't said anything regarding your thoughts on NJW yet, either positive or negative.None. I could probably look at NJW if you'd like, but I think I'm not great at reading NJW, so my opinion should be regarded poorly.
That was fast. Based on what I'm seeing... Nothing. There's nothing there to poke or anything. He's making some half-hearted jokes, asking some questions, blah blah blah and whatever. I don't really get the feeling he's scum, but he's posted once. He's kinda null.
So, exactly what you said. I have zero opinions on NJW. I frankly don't know what you think there should be.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 07, 2021, 04:05:04 pm
Spoiler: replies to Jack, Toony (click to show/hide)
You can't read him at all, so you're going to pressure him with an RVS stage vote. How convenient. No question or anything either, you're just going to plonk that vote down and leave it. And any poking of Tric is just going to be a blue-text declaration of poking.Roden: How confident do you feel that you can recognise Toony's scum play after the last game?I don't feel confident at all lol. His scum play doesn't really seem that different to his town play, even his tone read the same to me until the endgame. He's really good at flying under the radar especially early on, so early pressure on him honestly might be a good idea from now on.
I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.
What's going on here? Is voting/FOS-ing people while declaring it's entirely to see how they react your typical scumhunting method, or do you just like the pretty colours?
You know what this reminds me of? The chain of posts you created last round D1 that started here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321465#msg8321465) and ended here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321501#msg8321501). Going from "I'm a very unlikely town role" to "aha, I was baiting the kill with that post". Looks like a response to claims and calls for claims, but could have fitted with any subsequent actual claim. Makes town read it and think about it, but doesn't tell them a thing and just leads them into second-guessing if they actually try to get info about your role. Doesn't even work against scum, unlike Met's fake commuter claim in the first round. It just leads to draining, sterile recursion, like a Rick and Morty episode.I'll throw in my role. I will say that I can tell if someone was targeted by an action. Anyone else want to volunteer some info?i will not be volunteering information unless Forced to, as my role can determine If others are lying. Or maybe it can't, who can tell? I'm not a lie detector. the mafia will naturally assume this is a Soft/Hardclaim, and they'll be wrong. it's actually a fAkeCLAiM, NERDS!
So... is this something you always do when people mention roleclaims, Webadict?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 04:44:18 pm
Ok, wanting me to post before asking questions makes some sense. And no, I haven't been particularly aggressive, I just FOS'd you. You asked Max a question after saying probing them was pointless. That's... not really scumhunting, you just preemptively killed any pressure your question would have.If it's any consolation, I wouldn't be pressured anyway. It doesn't work.
Quote
What's going on here? Is voting/FOS-ing people while declaring it's entirely to see how they react your typical scumhunting method, or do you just like the pretty colours?This seems to be what like half of the people on this forum do? I don't disagree that it's pointless.
Post by: Vector on November 07, 2021, 07:13:19 pm
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 07:22:30 pm
You know what this reminds me of? The chain of posts you created last round D1 that started here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321465#msg8321465) and ended here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321501#msg8321501). Going from "I'm a very unlikely town role" to "aha, I was baiting the kill with that post". Looks like a response to claims and calls for claims, but could have fitted with any subsequent actual claim. Makes town read it and think about it, but doesn't tell them a thing and just leads them into second-guessing if they actually try to get info about your role. Doesn't even work against scum, unlike Met's fake commuter claim in the first round. It just leads to draining, sterile recursion, like a Rick and Morty episode.I claim when I need to and I don't claim when I don't need to.
So... is this something you always do when people mention roleclaims, Webadict?
The thing is, the scum have a much better view of the game than town does. Claiming at the beginning can be beneficial, or it can be detrimental. It's a bit of a coin flip on whether it does or doesn't. All I have is my role. With my role, not claiming is beneficial. You can take that for what it's worth. You can think I'm lying, and the thing is that I very much could be lying. If anything, it entices the scum to kill me.
If you want to use last round, it was, in fact, beneficial for me as any alignment to not roleclaim Day 1. The reason I claimed Day 2 is because it was no longer beneficial, and the roles were going to come out. Look through the scum chat to determine that ToonyMan had no clue who the Captain actually was, but that this would likely not have continued into Day 2, where he very likely would've pieced together who was the real Captain. In fact, my actual play made as much sense as Town trying to find scum as Mafia-Ally trying to find scum.
If you're going to try to pin my play style where I was actively scouting for teammates to this play, you're going to need to use a lot more information than that.
I want to play fucking hardball this game, so I'll make a bet: I'm not going to claim even if I'm at L-1. And if you want to convince other people to vote for me, that's another bullet in your chamber, but I'm planning to stick to that statement. What does that mean to you? Do you think I'll stick to that statement or not? Does this make me scum or not? Because you getting stuck on this is going to put you out front, and that means everyone--EVERYONE--will be watching every word you type, because I'll make them do it.
Scum has poison. I will not explain why I know that, so take it or leave the information as you will. Longer post later.I don't believe you.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 07, 2021, 08:15:43 pm
-When you claim is your prerogative. I don't like these D1 claims myself, I think they tend to take a lot of the sting out of a role-heavy setup for the mafia. But I'm not asking you why you didn't claim. I'm asking why you felt the need to post this:
EJ asks generally if anyone else is going to claim, doesn't even put an "@all" in front of it, and you actively feel the need to reply with this ambiguous, could-have-been-breadcrumbing-anything, post that requires people's attention but doesn't actually offer any information.I'll throw in my role. I will say that I can tell if someone was targeted by an action. Anyone else want to volunteer some info?i will not be volunteering information unless Forced to, as my role can determine If others are lying. Or maybe it can't, who can tell? I'm not a lie detector. the mafia will naturally assume this is a Soft/Hardclaim, and they'll be wrong. it's actually a fAkeCLAiM, NERDS!
I'm not asking why you're not claiming, although thank you for such a detailed answer to that question. I'm asking why you bothered to write anything further than "no", if you had to reply at all. And why you wrote something that looks like activity and takes up people's mental space, despite saying nothing. Because I don't see what this post does for town. I can see what it might do for scum!web, however.
I have no idea if you'll stick to your not-claiming today. I'd say it's pretty NAI in either case, there are roles you shouldn't claim as either alignment and L-1 isn't a death sentence. Not really as interesting an announcement as you seem to think it is.
In any case, Web's declaration upstaged by an exciting claim from Vector. @Web, going to tell us why you don't believe them?
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 08:24:46 pm
Clams and clams and fish and clams.EJ asks generally if anyone else is going to claim, doesn't even put an "@all" in front of it, and you actively feel the need to reply with this ambiguous, could-have-been-breadcrumbing-anything, post that requires people's attention but doesn't actually offer any information.I'll throw in my role. I will say that I can tell if someone was targeted by an action. Anyone else want to volunteer some info?i will not be volunteering information unless Forced to, as my role can determine If others are lying. Or maybe it can't, who can tell? I'm not a lie detector. the mafia will naturally assume this is a Soft/Hardclaim, and they'll be wrong. it's actually a fAkeCLAiM, NERDS!
I'm not asking why you're not claiming, although thank you for such a detailed answer to that question. I'm asking why you bothered to write anything further than "no", if you had to reply at all. And why you wrote something that looks like activity and takes up people's mental space, despite saying nothing. Because I don't see what this post does for town. I can see what it might do for scum!web, however.
I have no idea if you'll stick to your not-claiming today. I'd say it's pretty NAI in either case, there are roles you shouldn't claim as either alignment and L-1 isn't a death sentence. Not really as interesting an announcement as you seem to think it is.
In any case, Web's declaration upstaged by an exciting claim from Vector. @Web, going to tell us why you don't believe them?No reason. I just don't believe Vector. Do you believe Vector?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 09:49:12 pm
I'm feeling charitable enough to imagine that one of the two positions might be the truth. Anyone have poison so we can test this?
Post by: Vector on November 07, 2021, 10:05:21 pm
I'm going to guess that what Vector wants us to conclude is either that A) Vector has poison, or B) Vector is particularly vulnerable to poison.
I'm feeling charitable enough to imagine that one of the two positions might be the truth. Anyone have poison so we can test this?
I'm in.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 07, 2021, 10:07:03 pm
Why not? I believe Vector.Scum has poison. I will not explain why I know that, so take it or leave the information as you will. Longer post later.I don't believe you.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 07, 2021, 10:09:07 pm
I was a day poisoner in Round 2. I was also town. Why are you sure scum specifically has poison?I'm going to guess that what Vector wants us to conclude is either that A) Vector has poison, or B) Vector is particularly vulnerable to poison.I'm in.
I'm feeling charitable enough to imagine that one of the two positions might be the truth. Anyone have poison so we can test this?
You don't have to reveal your role just give me a second look through and make a conclusion based on what I've said.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 10:14:42 pm
I'm in.Wait, really? I was just joking. Well, okay.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 07, 2021, 10:15:45 pm
To be fair, ... I've got a headache, wha... Right, RVS.Unvote.Weaksauce Tric, weaksauce.
I got nothing right now. Other than a headache and too much web.
@Max:
I really don't want to give reads d1. It changes the facts on the ground too much. If I tell you what I think of what NJW is doing, then he also knows that, and what he does afterward has to be interpreted in light of his possession of that information. I don't like that kind of feedback loop.Yeah, but what if you die tonight? Or is that not something you are considering?
@NJW:
It's a good point, although would mafia!Roden try to push a vote on me for Day 1?You can't read him at all, so you're going to pressure him with an RVS stage vote. How convenient. No question or anything either, you're just going to plonk that vote down and leave it. And any poking of Tric is just going to be a blue-text declaration of poking.Roden: How confident do you feel that you can recognise Toony's scum play after the last game?I don't feel confident at all lol. His scum play doesn't really seem that different to his town play, even his tone read the same to me until the endgame. He's really good at flying under the radar especially early on, so early pressure on him honestly might be a good idea from now on.
I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.
What's going on here? Is voting/FOS-ing people while declaring it's entirely to see how they react your typical scumhunting method, or do you just like the pretty colours?
I suppose they haven't really pushed me at all so that could be suspicious, but...
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 10:19:17 pm
Yeah, but what if you die tonight? Or is that not something you are considering?Of course I'm considering it, but then it's just "well fuck". I still think anything I say about reads would be negative town utility right now, so it's just a risk between hopefully being useful tomorrow, or not really getting to contribute at all.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 10:23:25 pm
Post by: Vector on November 07, 2021, 10:24:04 pm
I'm in.Wait, really? I was just joking. Well, okay.
Yep, ready to be tested on this topic. Poisoners come forth OvO
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 10:27:46 pm
@Max: One thing you consistently fail to consider is that your fellow town players need to read YOU. Giving some info helps us help you help town... mmm. I am not failing to consider it. The thing is that I act exactly the same either way. However, I do try to give you as much non-negative-value information as possible by engaging conversationally like this. You have seen that I will interact extensively as long as someone doesn't ask me a question I think would be counterproductive.
Post by: Roden on November 07, 2021, 10:55:47 pm
... It's Roden. Delayer isn't exactly townie, and we see how Toony's ealry gunsmith claim worked out last session.Tric...we literally had a Town Delayer round 1. And last round the only reason I got voted out was because my role sounded scummy and I still ended up being town. I know others have already talked you down from this, but I have no idea why you'd scum read me for my role again when that clearly isn't working. FoU has clearly been giving town scummy roles and scum townie roles to counteract the mass claim meta.
Also, why you asking about my first post in advance Max?
Ninjadict
I explained why I voted Toony. And I did ask him a question. He answered it.You can't read him at all, so you're going to pressure him with an RVS stage vote. How convenient. No question or anything either, you're just going to plonk that vote down and leave it. And any poking of Tric is just going to be a blue-text declaration of poking.Roden: How confident do you feel that you can recognise Toony's scum play after the last game?I don't feel confident at all lol. His scum play doesn't really seem that different to his town play, even his tone read the same to me until the endgame. He's really good at flying under the radar especially early on, so early pressure on him honestly might be a good idea from now on.
I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.
What's going on here? Is voting/FOS-ing people while declaring it's entirely to see how they react your typical scumhunting method, or do you just like the pretty colours?
@Roden:Let's not do this thing again where you don't read my posts then shit fight with me the rest of the day, NJW.Toony, what's your role?Very deadly, very stupid. It works better if mafia don't know about it.
My FOS on Tric was gonna be a red vote, but I changed my mind because I don't like participating in policy votes and that's essentially what it would be. I hate that he's stuck on logic that clearly isn't working, but I know that itself isn't scum indicative and that he'll eventually make his own alignment clear regardless of pressure.
Toony is different though, and as much as the game gets easier when I know I can trust him, it gets that much harder when he's actually scum. So yes, I'm poking Tric to get him to wake the hell up, and I'm voting Toony because blindly trusting him isn't a good idea.
Post by: Roden on November 07, 2021, 10:59:46 pm
@NJW:I don't push early on. I'll vote, see where everyone's progressions go, then reevaluate and push.It's a good point, although would mafia!Roden try to push a vote on me for Day 1?You can't read him at all, so you're going to pressure him with an RVS stage vote. How convenient. No question or anything either, you're just going to plonk that vote down and leave it. And any poking of Tric is just going to be a blue-text declaration of poking.Roden: How confident do you feel that you can recognise Toony's scum play after the last game?I don't feel confident at all lol. His scum play doesn't really seem that different to his town play, even his tone read the same to me until the endgame. He's really good at flying under the radar especially early on, so early pressure on him honestly might be a good idea from now on.
I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.
What's going on here? Is voting/FOS-ing people while declaring it's entirely to see how they react your typical scumhunting method, or do you just like the pretty colours?
I suppose they haven't really pushed me at all so that could be suspicious, but...
Post by: Roden on November 07, 2021, 11:04:40 pm
Scum has poison. I will not explain why I know that, so take it or leave the information as you will. Longer post later.
Should go without saying, but if we have a Watcher they should go on Vector.I'm in.Wait, really? I was just joking. Well, okay.
Yep, ready to be tested on this topic. Poisoners come forth OvO
Post by: ToonyMan on November 07, 2021, 11:17:45 pm
Jack
Webadict
Maximum Spin
Roden
Null
Vector
Suspicious
NJW
Tric
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 11:25:52 pm
YupScum has poison. I will not explain why I know that, so take it or leave the information as you will. Longer post later.Should go without saying, but if we have a Watcher they should go on Vector.I'm in.Wait, really? I was just joking. Well, okay.
Yep, ready to be tested on this topic. Poisoners come forth OvO
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 11:41:44 pm
Probably town
Jack
Maximum Spin
Roden
Null
Vector
Suspicious
NJW
Tric
Frankly, I don't know how you could possibly think that because that makes no sense. It honestly feels like your plan to find scum is to coinflip your way into it. Which it probably is. It's weird that you don't think that you can determine anything from what people say while simultaneously thinking that people can use what you say to their advantage. Are you saying that your words will be used out of context, or do you think that your reads will somehow lead others in the wrong direction? Is that because you think your reads are right or because you think your reads do not contain enough information and are therefore incomplete? In the latter case, your arguments being half-filled wouldn't really make a full-fledged case, now would they?Yeah, but what if you die tonight? Or is that not something you are considering?Of course I'm considering it, but then it's just "well fuck". I still think anything I say about reads would be negative town utility right now, so it's just a risk between hopefully being useful tomorrow, or not really getting to contribute at all.
POKE POKE POKE POKE POKE POKE POKE, can the bear bear this bare barrage? Barely.
Unfortunately, as you can see from my reads, I think you're Town, so there's no point in being a bully, so bully for you! I'm really just interested in why you think people don't deserve some fresh hot reads from right off the Maximum Spindoctor's latest diss-track.
Toony is different though, and as much as the game gets easier when I know I can trust him, it gets that much harder when he's actually scum. So yes, I'm poking Tric to get him to wake the hell up, and I'm voting Toony because blindly trusting him isn't a good idea.Toony isn't scum, I don't know why you can't see that. Go after one of NJW and Tric and you'll be fiiiiiiine. Trust me. I'm a doctor.
Well, not a real doctor. Like, a fake doctor.
Okay, not even a fake doctor.
I'm not a doctor.
Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't vote for ToonyMan because it's not ToonyMan.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 11:50:17 pm
Frankly, I don't know how you could possibly think that because that makes no sense. It honestly feels like your plan to find scum is to coinflip your way into it. Which it probably is. It's weird that you don't think that you can determine anything from what people say while simultaneously thinking that people can use what you say to their advantage. Are you saying that your words will be used out of context, or do you think that your reads will somehow lead others in the wrong direction? Is that because you think your reads are right or because you think your reads do not contain enough information and are therefore incomplete? In the latter case, your arguments being half-filled wouldn't really make a full-fledged case, now would they?No, none of that is what I meant. Try pulling the lever again, maybe next roll's the one.
Post by: webadict on November 07, 2021, 11:54:14 pm
Whelp, that's the problem with not explaining the things you do, eh?Frankly, I don't know how you could possibly think that because that makes no sense. It honestly feels like your plan to find scum is to coinflip your way into it. Which it probably is. It's weird that you don't think that you can determine anything from what people say while simultaneously thinking that people can use what you say to their advantage. Are you saying that your words will be used out of context, or do you think that your reads will somehow lead others in the wrong direction? Is that because you think your reads are right or because you think your reads do not contain enough information and are therefore incomplete? In the latter case, your arguments being half-filled wouldn't really make a full-fledged case, now would they?No, none of that is what I meant. Try pulling the lever again, maybe next roll's the one.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 07, 2021, 11:55:02 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 01:15:29 am
Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't vote for ToonyMan because it's not ToonyMan.Why have you decided to not interact with me in this game Web? That's no fun.
I like your reads, but I feel like they're really familiar.
...Have you noticed anything with any of the players so far?
Making assumptions is a choice!Having seen Max's play now in the last round this looks exactly the same to me. That's why I think they're probably town. It's kind of whatever now, but you'll likely see me much more openminded if say they're trying to explain themselves on Day 2 after people think they're lying about their claims.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2021, 01:21:55 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 01:27:02 am
EuchreJack's Reads List:
Vector: Warned us that Scum has Poison. That would be a Town Tell, unless nobody claims to be poisoned D2. Nobody has counter-claimed to be a Town day poisoner.
Toonyman: I'll admit, this mostly comes down to Gambler's Fallacy, but does seem to be playing different than last round. More tricky methodical, less pushy.
Roden: Obviously burned pretty hard by mafia!Toonyman. Claimed D1, like usual. Claiming their particular role of Delayer is a sub-optimal D1 claim, as usual. Sub-optimal since he can't trick anyone by announcing that he's a Delayer later on, although can (and should) give info D2. Could be cover for a Poisoner? Still trying to work that one out, but that seems risky to pull off. We'll see on D2 & D3.
Maximum Spin: Seem like standard D1 Maximum Spin, after the cobwebs have been cleaned off the sentient AI that is Maximum Spin. A bit too scientific for D1, should be an asset to town D2 on. Null-slightly town (since similar behavior last game when town).
webadict: Not only can not be bothered to post their own reads list, they had the gall to copy someone else's
TricMagic: Maybe if I scum-read you, you'll play to your potential? Typical TricMagic mistakes, but is smart enough to "hide in audacity". Sorta Scummy.
NJW2000: Yes, suspicions were based upon Gambler's Fallacy, but I sense an aggression that was absent in other games. It's like you're trying to smear players, rather than find scum. First post was quite scummy:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I underlined the areas I think existed purely to smear other players rather than actually find scum. Also, TricMagic never answered NJW's question, yet NJW let it drop. Vector's question also remained unanswered, yet NJW dropped it, although you can see I found it to be a scummy question to ask, since its hard to answer without looking like scum.
@NJW: You like to get questions when you're getting scumread, so why did you let TricMagic's question drop? Why did you let Vector's question drop?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 01:31:09 am
I really don't like people making assumptions about things I didn't say, but I will tell you this so you don't have to assume: I am only one person.
Ok Max, on these forums we use the pronoun "They/them/their" if we don't know if someone is self-declared as a male or female. I think you've self-declared as male, so He/His/Him are the pronouns we should be using folks. If you respect the They/Them/Their, I guess we should also respect the He/His/Him and She/Hers/Her.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 01:37:43 am
To be fair, ... I've got a headache, wha... Right, RVS.Unvote.
I got nothing right now. Other than a headache and too much web.
FOS TricMagic, because Web has actually been a lot less intense than other games. Hardly see this round as the one in which to be complaining of Web's audacity.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2021, 01:38:30 am
Ok Max, on these forums we use the pronoun "They/them/their" if we don't know if someone is self-declared as a male or female. I think you've self-declared as male, so He/His/Him are the pronouns we should be using folks. If you respect the They/Them/Their, I guess we should also respect the He/His/Him and She/Hers/Her.I honestly don't care what you call me as long as it isn't that. I guess, really, I don't care that much if you keep calling me that either but I'm going to keep saying it.
But yeah, I'm male.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 01:41:51 am
Good to know, I'll try to keep it in mind, hopefully others will as well. We've sort of gotten in the habit around here of calling everyone They/them/their, so apologies bro/dude/man.Ok Max, on these forums we use the pronoun "They/them/their" if we don't know if someone is self-declared as a male or female. I think you've self-declared as male, so He/His/Him are the pronouns we should be using folks. If you respect the They/Them/Their, I guess we should also respect the He/His/Him and She/Hers/Her.I honestly don't care what you call me as long as it isn't that. I guess, really, I don't care that much if you keep calling me that either but I'm going to keep saying it.
But yeah, I'm male.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2021, 01:46:45 am
Thank you. Like I said, it doesn't bother me that much, but it does a little.Good to know, I'll try to keep it in mind, hopefully others will as well. We've sort of gotten in the habit around here of calling everyone They/them/their, so apologies bro/dude/man.Ok Max, on these forums we use the pronoun "They/them/their" if we don't know if someone is self-declared as a male or female. I think you've self-declared as male, so He/His/Him are the pronouns we should be using folks. If you respect the They/Them/Their, I guess we should also respect the He/His/Him and She/Hers/Her.I honestly don't care what you call me as long as it isn't that. I guess, really, I don't care that much if you keep calling me that either but I'm going to keep saying it.
But yeah, I'm male.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 01:55:22 am
The same way my current post is towards everyone.
I usually stick an @ at the top of a quote when I'm directing towards someone, but not always. I'm here to determine a player's alignment, not who they are behind the screen. I'll respect someone's wishes if I'm aware but otherwise I'll probably go with they or he by default, generally the former nowadays.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 08, 2021, 06:10:13 am
Spoiler: replies to posts of varying levels of inanity (click to show/hide)
Well, I guess we're approaching the 75% mark rapidly, so it's worth posting reads. In summary: I want to lynch Web, or failing that within Roden/Toony/Max.
Spoiler: readslist (click to show/hide)
Back later today but for now I need to take a break and get on with life.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 08:54:37 am
Well, I guess we're approaching the 75% mark rapidly, so it's worth posting reads. In summary: I want to lynch Web, or failing that within Roden/Toony/Max.
...
TricMagic: Null. Aggressive focus on Roden, frustration at Webadict, very little else. I sympathise with his scumreading someone because of a claim he thinks shouldn't have been made, but the case he presented was really not good. Not enough information here to read Tric, although if the Roden thing is all they do today they'll be a prime elimination target.
NJW: Isn't it unusual for you to want to lynch one out of five people (in an eight person game)? Aren't you at least a little bit more specific D1 in previous games?
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 09:01:39 am
@NJW: Ya know, NJW, I actually would think you were Town here, but you're trying awfully hard to compare my behavior to last round. There's 3 issues that I see with that:
One, I wasn't full scum last round. I was doing a lot of fishing for clams, but I was also leaving lots of hints. But, as not full scum, my behavior was best described as Survivor. I had no kill. I was not in the informed minority, regardless of what you think.
Two, you're trying awfully hard to justify your vote on me. I don't actually know why you would need to. I feel like my playstyle amounts itself to easy evidence. It should be simple. If I do everything on purpose, which I do, then why do you need to overanalyze my behavior?
Three, your comparisons are, objectively speaking, wrong. I actually poked Max because it's hilarious and Max is objectively funny unintentionally, but I also wanted to see what you'd do about it. The answer, naturally, was disappointing, in that you point it out but don't take a more aggressive stance like last time. If I wanted to waste Town's time, I'd start engaging with ToonyMan, which I desperately want to, but need to hold back on account of we're both the same alignment, and that is Town. It's really that simple, and yet you also list ToonyMan as scum. I find it unusual that you're using my behavior from last game and not his behavior from last game. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Perhaps you couldn't find any matching scum behavior. Perhaps you wanted to use my potential scummitude to incriminate ToonyMan without any of that hassle. If I flip Town, how does that impact your read of ToonyMan?
Frankly, NJW, I don't like answering your questions because I have answered your questions already. It's why I go into rant mode. I get carried away with monologs, because I feel like if you haven't been paying enough attention, then you, frankly, deserve it, almost like chastising a child. Is that wrong of me? Assuredly so. But scummy? No. Could I be clearer in my answers? No, absolutely not, the answers are right there under ten tons of bullshit. Here is your shovel.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 09:20:31 am
Have a better sense of the game now today Tric? I would like to know how you feel about everyone.
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 09:27:41 am
I'd say Roden is weird, but I'm weird. And it's not any weirder than last game. Also, why do you want me dead Toony? I get the feeling cause I am someone who would last till the last day otherwise, cause people think I can be swayed to make the wrong choice.
Only person I forgot is Vector. Unless we have some weird 1 mafia setup again, I trust their claim poison is in play, so slight town-read. So right now you, NJW, and webadict are the most suspicious to me.
I'd be fine with a NJW/Toony lynch. Mostly cause web is being web right now.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 09:42:17 am
In addition, you voted Roden for claiming early and readily, despite the fact this is something you do as town and should feel some sort of sympathy towards that kind of play. I fakeclaimed Gunsmith at the start of R3 and you were completely taken in and felt I was likely town because of it, where's that now Tric?
Lastly, you were mafia partners with Roden in R2 so you should possibly have a better feel for their mafia play while a game is ongoing. You're in a better position than most of us to read into Roden's D1 claim, which by the way they've done in the D1 of every round and is not alignment indicative at best from my point of view.
It seems you dropped the Roden case at least and are targeting me and NJW. Are you trying to bus NJW here? That's also in your meta...
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 09:53:36 am
I have no idea why you're town reading Vector. I'm unable to distinguish their play today from any other round. You must be really good at reading Vector, foolish, or mafia.
As for your lynch preferences, why is Max an okay nullread lynch but not nullread Tric?
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 10:06:03 am
Max isn't playing off his day 1 meta, he's playing on/to it. And my lynch preference is you and NJW.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 08, 2021, 10:18:37 am
NJW: Isn't it unusual for you to want to lynch one out of five people (in an eight person game)? Aren't you at least a little bit more specific D1 in previous games?I have a wider pool of people I'd be ok with lynching this game, yes. I'd prefer Web really, but I don't think I'm going to get that today, so I'm open to other options. I see basically everything Max does D1 as NAI, but am more willing to eliminate him than your standard null-read because I think dialogue involving him tends to hurt town, so that's another acceptable target. Oh, also, it's one out of four, unless Tric's play towards the end of the day is particularly scummy.
-I'm not relying on your past behaviour particularly. I think the way you're playing is inherently scum-sided, so worthy of suspiscion in itself. And perhaps I'd rather vote you than shovel through bullshit, as you so aptly put it. My time isn't worth less than other people's. I have no idea what your flipping town would say about Toony, I'm don't have any conditional judgements linking the two of you. I suppose I should go through what you wrote more carefully, but anything else is going to have to wait.
@NJW:My opinion of Vector is entirely based on the few sentences of content I've seen from them, and I already noted that because of this it is liable to change. As I've said, I'm not sure why scum!Vector would introduce the poison information immediately - it would be a very questionable gambit in most situations.
I have no idea why you're town reading Vector. I'm unable to distinguish their play today from any other round. You must be really good at reading Vector, foolish, or mafia.
As for your lynch preferences, why is Max an okay nullread lynch but not nullread Tric?
Max is an ok nullread elimination because their presence is not helpful to town and I do not expect to be able to read them. See day two of the previous round. This is not true of Tric, so I'm only going to be keen to eliminate them if I actually think they're mafia.
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 10:33:04 am
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 10:39:09 am
For example, your reason for voting me is a misunderstanding. That post about nullreads was directed towards NJW, not you.
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 10:53:36 am
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 10:55:01 am
First off, my mafia meta usually ends up with me being bussed, not the other way around. Second, I didn't say Max was a nullread lynch, I said he was playing his day 1 meta. The fact you make that accusation just makes you more scummy in my eyes Toony.If you don't unvote Toony, I will tunnel you into oblivion. I have no qualms about doing so.
Max isn't playing off his day 1 meta, he's playing on/to it. And my lynch preference is you and NJW.
Ah.. Webadict. Still don't trust the two of you, but.Ninja'd. Better.
Post by: Vector on November 08, 2021, 12:40:40 pm
PS: r.e. pronouns I see we moved from he/him default to they/them default. Yes, the done thing is to respect whatever anyone says. Default is a temporary matter until you get to know the person better!
For the cisgender people here unaccustomed to this state of affairs I invite you to reflect on your experience of being misgendered :V And, recall that we could have chosen a she/her default!
(should we have a rotating default? hm)
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 12:54:01 pm
*checks back*
Oh shit I guess he does. I didn't even realize since it's just summarizing half of the players without saying if they think they're town or not, what gives Jack?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 12:55:23 pm
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 01:43:42 pm
I'm willing to launch Tric solely on principle. I don't have clear reads on anyone just yet (for the most part I agree with EJ's readlist) but I do not want to LYLO with him again. Sure, MaxSpin is slightly obdurate. So what? Did you read LYLO last game?
If you get that far I'll just role reveal. So yes, unless someone kills me I'll be in Lylo. Unless you want to argue I'm a multitasker. My problem last round is that I chose to trust Toony, and a lot of evidence was needed to overturn that trust.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 01:56:00 pm
Why are you holding onto your role so hard? It's not very like you.
@Jack:
If I'm reading this right your top townread is Vector? Are you serious? Why?
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 02:33:57 pm
@Tric:
Why are you holding onto your role so hard? It's not very like you.
@Jack:
If I'm reading this right your top townread is Vector? Are you serious? Why?
@Toony
Why do you want to know so badly?
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 02:48:52 pm
@Vector: Why don't more people sus you?
@NJW: You have bad picks and bad intuition. You are voting for a Townie. Clearly, I am the one that is scum-sided. You have at least 2 Townies in your top 3, so keep up.
@Jack: I have nothing for you, but I was so close to copying a ToonyMan and running it through a synonym replacer. Keep up the good work.
@Roden: Who even are you?
@Maximum Spin: Pretend I'm poking you in your third eyestalk.
If only there was another person to interact with. Damn. Oh well.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 03:07:33 pm
Jack is that list ordered from highest to lowest?
@Jack:
If I'm reading this right your top townread is Vector? Are you serious? Why?
Yup, ordered most likely town to most likely scum. Vector is at top for warning us about Poison, if true I don't think mafia would be telling us that information. We'll know tomorrow when someone invariably says "Hey I got poisoned!", if I understand how poison works. My guess is that Vector likely has some sort of antidote, hence the wanting to be poisoned, as the person they want to use the presumably limited antidote upon is themselves, the person they absolutely know is town.
Note nobody has made your Round 2 claim yet, so I tend to agree that poison, if it exists, is in purely scum hands.
Wow, webadict can't even be bothered to create their own reads list. Just copied Toonyman's list. Lazy.
EuchreJack's Reads List:
Vector: Warned us that Scum has Poison. That would be a Town Tell, unless nobody claims to be poisoned D2. Nobody has counter-claimed to be a Town day poisoner.
Toonyman: I'll admit, this mostly comes down to Gambler's Fallacy, but does seem to be playing different than last round. More tricky methodical, less pushy.
Roden: Obviously burned pretty hard by mafia!Toonyman. Claimed D1, like usual. Claiming their particular role of Delayer is a sub-optimal D1 claim, as usual. Sub-optimal since he can't trick anyone by announcing that he's a Delayer later on, although can (and should) give info D2. Could be cover for a Poisoner? Still trying to work that one out, but that seems risky to pull off. We'll see on D2 & D3.
Maximum Spin: Seem like standard D1 Maximum Spin, after the cobwebs have been cleaned off the sentient AI that is Maximum Spin. A bit too scientific for D1, should be an asset to town D2 on. Null-slightly town (since similar behavior last game when town).
webadict: Not only can not be bothered to post their own reads list, they had the gall to copy someone else'shomeworkreads list. But typical Webadict. Subdued methodical behavior does remind me more of Town!Webadict than Mafia!Webadict. Straight Null.
TricMagic: Maybe if I scum-read you, you'll play to your potential? Typical TricMagic mistakes, but is smart enough to "hide in audacity". Sorta Scummy.
NJW2000: Yes, suspicions were based upon Gambler's Fallacy, but I sense an aggression that was absent in other games. It's like you're trying to smear players, rather than find scum. First post was quite scummy:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I underlined the areas I think existed purely to smear other players rather than actually find scum. Also, TricMagic never answered NJW's question, yet NJW let it drop. Vector's question also remained unanswered, yet NJW dropped it, although you can see I found it to be a scummy question to ask, since its hard to answer without looking like scum.
@NJW: You like to get questions when you're getting scumread, so why did you let TricMagic's question drop? Why did you let Vector's question drop?
There, I color coded it for you. Subsequent posts: Tric has some work to do, but is posting better. NJW is still scaring me. Web is still web. Vector sheeping me is suspicious.
I'm willing to launch Tric solely on principle. I don't have clear reads on anyone just yet (for the most part I agree with EJ's readlist) but I do not want to LYLO with him again. Sure, MaxSpin is slightly obdurate. So what? Did you read LYLO last game?I read it, and believe you would make this statement regardless of alignment. We'll see how your poison claim pans out. How might you disagree with my readlist?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 03:15:18 pm
@Tric:
Why are you holding onto your role so hard? It's not very like you.
@Jack:
If I'm reading this right your top townread is Vector? Are you serious? Why?
@Toony
Why do you want to know so badly?
I don't care what you are Tric, what's important is figuring out the reasons behind your behavior.
I admit it's a bit unnerving that Web and Jack both have the same top two scum picks as me. Web refuses to interact with me which is annoying. I don't understand why NJW and Jack both townread Vector.
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 03:19:12 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 03:41:46 pm
My reasoning will become clear tomorrow. So long as I don't end up delayed anyway. Lynch me then if you want.That's great and all Tric, but even as an extremely powerful cop last round that should not have claimed under normal circumstances, you still claimed within the first 10 posts of Day 1. See my point? You did not have inherent protection or even the knowledge of others that could protect you at that point, but yet you still revealed yourself because you felt it was what you should do as town.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 03:49:49 pm
Is your role death related? Because mine is, as I hinted at when I responded to Roden here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327209#msg8327209).
You can just give me a yes or no answer.
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 04:03:07 pm
Also, why mention that? Don't Mafia know about it now? Are you the one who poisons?
Post by: TricMagic on November 08, 2021, 04:03:32 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2021, 04:15:34 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 04:27:52 pm
While that is true, right now is not the right time to claim. For this role anyway. I claimed last round since you were also a type of cop, but you note I didn't say I was 1-shot and could inspect two.I am not. And Vector won't answer my questions. :(
Also, why mention that? Don't Mafia know about it now? Are you the one who poisons?
Toonyman, what constitutes "death-related" for you?Things that involve death, such as someone dying or being dead.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 04:31:35 pm
While that is true, right now is not the right time to claim. For this role anyway.That's hardly stopped you with any role that shouldn't claim. Such as a Knight in Supernatural 10 which blew my mind during that game.
I claimed last round since you were also a type of cop, but you note I didn't say I was 1-shot and could inspect two.Sure, but I was absolutely going to kill you on N2 (my scumlog has the evidence of this) since I was under the impression you would not have gotten anything useful during N1. Shame on me for not expecting a ridiculously powerful N1 ability. You were a powerful cop either way and marked yourself for death by claiming.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2021, 04:40:08 pm
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 04:41:58 pm
Okay, analysis time:
I think I was initially right that ToonyMan is Town. For now they will be the lowest of the Town players because out of all of them, he's the most likely to be able to fake it until he makes it.
I will admit Roden initially claiming gives them a free pass.
I will admit Vector claiming poisoning gives them a free pass. You can say that I didn't believe them, but... eh.
I will admit that EuchreJack is correct on all of these and give them a free pass.
I will say that Maximum Spin has accomplished nothing, but that this isn't necessarily outside his play from last round, but the issue is that he is unlikely to help find scum otherwise. Forcing him to claim might be a necessity.
I will say that NJW's progression today has been mediocre at best, but I suppose this is a forced situation for them. If NJW is calling Tric null, there's gotta be a better rationale for this. It definitely points towards a connection between the two if either flip scum. NJW will tunnel on me, which isn't particularly interesting in itself, but it certainly feels lazy.
TricMagic is a weird case for me. Initially I voted them because it was a safety vote for Town, where they tend to reject all information, but their play style is reductionist caution right now, which is super unhelpful in a different way. Their justifications need to start making sense from Tric's point of view, and Tric going after Toony and I isn't out of meta, but it's out of character for their current playstyle. I want to see Tric comment on NJW a bit more, though. If I were going to be safe, I'd swap to NJW, but it's totally not decided for me yet.
Ninja:
I suspect I might have an inkling what Toonyman does, actually. Whether I'm right or wrong, you're not my prime suspect right now.Hm... Okay, less null from this. It's something.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 08, 2021, 07:00:35 pm
Spoiler: replies, and I guess the case on Web if anyone's actually here (click to show/hide)
Well ok then. I've set out my reads today, haven't changed much since then. Tric looks slightly better, insofar as I can read Tric. Don't think Toony's "they haven't claimed yet" case is up to much. People are capable of learning, and D1 claims aren't disadvantageous for scum in these setups as FoU gives them town-looking powers. Roden has done literally no scumhunting and is worryingly absent, I'm expecting Vector to either post more or ask for an extend. Webadict is still either scum or intent on baiting me until I blow a fuse for reasons best known to himself. I'm pretty confident I can read EJ at this point and he's still town, while Toony... really wants to know why Tric hasn't claimed and why I'm not voting Vector? I'm struggling to see any clear agenda there at all. D1 MaxSpin continues to be D1 MaxSpin by assumption.
I'll have to sleep fairly soon, and I'm leaving my vote where it is, hoping against hope people will actually take a hard look at Web's D1 play rather than dismiss it as characteristic zaniness. I don't have a townread on Tric, but really don't want to vote them as I haven't seen anyone mount a case against them that wasn't lazy or wack, which is a bad sign. I'm going to have to trust that Vector will actually post again today, but I'm not too worried on that front. Roden and Toony don't seem to be on the menu, and I don't think a policy lynch of Max is appropriate with more promising options available.
In short, I'm sticking with Webadict.
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 08:12:38 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 09:11:05 pm
Because you placed Vector as a solid town, only under Jack. Vector has done very little this day, which is not alignment indicative since they've done the exact same thing as town and mafia on D1. If you check my reads of Vector on D1 of every round I always find them null or suspicious, this has not changed at all although I have realized more this is just how Vector plays. I find it extremely odd how strongly you think Vector is town because of a simple poison claim, especially since you don't find many players town at all in this game.I don't understand why NJW and Jack both townread Vector.I've explained my reasoning already, Toony, come on. The post about poison means I don't want to lynch them D1, because I don't think scum would lie about that or immediately give up that information. I haven't yet seen any strong reason to believe they're scum. Ergo, they're in the town section of my readslist.
I mean, if they don't post anything else before the end of the day, that's a different matter. I'm assuming that we're going to see more than ten sentences from them though. Unsure how I'd respond to someone just not really turning up.
Why are you so caught up on this? Is there something I'm not putting clearly?
And no, scumhunting you is not lazy. I wouldn't choose to deal with your nonsense if I were scum, I'd be "reluctantly" voting Tric for having posted a weak case, or trying to get Max out on a policy lynch, or voting Roden because it's just what's expected of me. Absolutely anything less frustrating than reading your prose.See, this is odd. You "reluctantly" voted Jack last round on Day 1 because me and Roden both voted him for reasons you didn't really understand, but respected my opinion against Jack even though I was mafia and lying out my ass to get Jack lynched since it fit my meta. And so you voted Jack.
But now Tric is off the table? Why? I believe my reasoning of their mental state is accurate because they're mafia. And this time I actually mean it unlike last round.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 09:17:59 pm
1. When I picked at Tric for voting Roden, they unvoted Roden and backed off.
2. When Tric voted me for voting them, I told them that Webadict was likely mafia if they were town and he switched to Webadict instead.
I am tempted to vote Webadict before day end if they continue to ignore me.
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 09:25:27 pm
you misrepresent meLet's use your own words then. That'll give you an advantage.
you misrepresent meDid I? Why don't you link that post? Is it this one?
I'm not asking why you're not claiming, although thank you for such a detailed answer to that question. I'm asking why you bothered to write anything further than "no", if you had to reply at all. And why you wrote something that looks like activity and takes up people's mental space, despite saying nothing. Because I don't see what this post does for town. I can see what it might do for scum!web, however.The point was that the initial post was fishing for information, but your post was ALSO fishing for role information, and I unfortunately screwed up the real message in the post:
i will not be volunteering information unless Forced to, as my role can determine If others are lying. Or maybe it can't, who can tell? I'm not a lie detector. the mafia will naturally assume this is a Soft/Hardclaim, and they'll be wrong. it's actually a fAkeCLAiM, NERDS!
Forced If Or I'm[/i] Soft/Hardclaim, fAkeCLAiM, NERDS!
F I S H A CLA M NERDS!I then politely made fun of you to your face by explaining the joke, but the joke wasn't exceptionally funny. It was, however, dead, and therefore pointless.
Clams and clams and fish and clams.You killed the joke.
The worst part is that this isn't even the issue I have with your case. It's just a needle in my side that has annoyed me. Because you're a joke murderer.
Anyway, I'm going to not misrepresent you from here on out.
I wouldn't choose to deal with your nonsense if I were scum, I'd be "reluctantly" voting Tric for having posted a weak caseWould you? This guy has some sort of weird fascination with NOT suspecting TricMagic:
Well, I guess we're approaching the 75% mark rapidly, so it's worth posting reads. In summary: I want to lynch Web, or failing that within Roden/Toony/Max.Weird how Max is on that list but Tric isn't, but in the reads, Tric is lower (or at the same level, depending on how you look at it.) Feels like you're putting Tric here because you can't get away with putting Tric higher, and possibly because you don't want to put him lower.
MaxSpin: Null.
TricMagic: Null.
Toonyman: weak lean scum
Roden: Lean scum.
Webadict: scum
or trying to get Max out on a policy lynchUnlikely, that'd be a recipe for disaster, as it'd make you look bad the next day.
MaximumSpin:[/b] Apparently doesn't think you really find scum D1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8321606#msg8321606), actions reflect that belief. Asking if Toony reads into things a lot is a bit dubious, because a) we're playing mafia and b) Max seems to be someone who likes people to read them carefully, see Kurt Cobain reference somewhere above. Lean scum.You have previously suspected Max before, but you were hesitantly defending them.
Oh, and in case people aren't getting the picture, Max is just like this. Thinks D1 lynches are pointless and stupid, moves discussion onto his theories about that, engages abrasively wherever possible, refers to conditional judgements as "weights on a directed graph". Does this kind of thing consistently D1 as town, and presumably as scum too. N. A. I.But, you did give a good reason for their behavior, in a way that passively defends them. Now, your actions were intended to remove them from Town that game, by deflecting onto Maximum Spin, because you realized they were anti-Town, but you didn't push that case at all. If you were going to push that as scum, you'd have this as evidence against it.
But, that doesn't really matter. It's just intended to show some of your Town behavior.
or voting Roden because it's just what's expected of meIf you were Town, you wouldn't be suspecting Roden at all. Let's follow some logic on this one.
Roden: active, claimed their role and its restrictions promptly which mafia might not want to do, lean townRoden has followed the exact same conditions as last game, but your suspicions appear to not be the same. This is even called out by EuchreJack in the previous game:
It's also odd because you're enticing Jack to bring pressure, which is certainly a helpful measure, as opposed to how you essentially treated Roden here. So weeeeeeird.NJW2000, because townreading Roden is outside of your meta. Plus, following your advice. :PGood. Now that there's pressure, use it by asking a question.
Your evidence on me is garbage, but that's not why you're suspicious. The reason why you're suspicious is because you don't believe your garbage.
I want you to read your reads from games 1-3.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
EuchreJack: Town, extremely hung up on my first post in which I FoS'd him, constantly asking other people to post their reads on me, asking obviously pointless questions, I really wish this stuff was at least alignment indicative here. But nah, I don't think scum!EJ could fake this play, or would fixate so hard.EuchreJack made a rather astute assessment, and I'm going to post it here:
Vector: Town thus far, I don't see scum wandering in and simply announcing "scum have poison, more later". Obviously a read subject to change when we see more content.
MaxSpin: Null. I'm not going to make guesses about Max's alignment D1. Would still be very happy to eliminate them if nothing better is available.
TricMagic: Null. Aggressive focus on Roden, frustration at Webadict, very little else. I sympathise with his scumreading someone because of a claim he thinks shouldn't have been made, but the case he presented was really not good. Not enough information here to read Tric, although if the Roden thing is all they do today they'll be a prime elimination target.
Toonyman: weak lean scum, he's been defending people more than usual, I think. Has a whole lot of townreads too, but he'll do that as either alignment. No strong read on him, nor do I expect to have one D1.
Roden: Lean scum. Not much to say here, they seem to be sticking to their guns on the whole "putting people's names in a colour and doing nothing else is pressuring them" idea. Claim largely NAI I think. Need to see more content but right now it isn't looking good.
Webadict: scum. I don't trust the whole "this is a claim, actually no it isn't lol" stuff, for reasons I've explained. I don't think Web posts without an agenda - reread the last game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8322935#msg8322935). Max thinks they're exchanging banter about Wittgenstein or whatever, Web is actually using it as a way to communicate with their partner. His posts have reasons behind them. Also a slightly too strong reaction here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327321#msg8327321) followed by a refusal to actually answer my question doesn't look great. Also is engaging with Max on his philosophies of mafia, which was a good way to waste Town's time last round.
I sense an aggression that was absent in other games. It's like you're trying to smear players, rather than find scum.And I think that this is absolutely true. Look at the difference between these Day 1 reads and tell me if you think games 1-3 are trying to smear the Town reads?
The worst part is that I haven't even really gotten to the main part of your post.
I called you out for playing like this in the last game, and I'm calling you out on it now - that's the only real correspondence with R3 worth considering, so you can stop complaining about references to the last game. You're doing what a scum player who wants to coast through D1 on a reputation for wacky and aggressive play does. Or, in a very marginal case, a town player who thinks their years of experience and strong mechanical/reads game gives them the right to clown about and harm town D1. And hey, if it's the second, good for you I guess. That kind of self-belief would be nice to have.The easiest answer is that you believed it last game. Frankly, everyone has plenty of reason to vote me, and I honestly wouldn't fault anyone Town for doing so if they truly couldn't find a better target. Also, you had me listed as null last game, soooo, I'm not sure that that's a truly accurate statement at all. I actually did a reread of last game, and I'm actually pretty sure you never suspected me? But, if you'd like to prove me wrong, I suppose that's a fair assessment.
That's a start.
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 09:28:24 pm
The best part is, the smart ones know I'm not lying. I'm Town, and I'll fucking take my secrets to the fucking grave, out of pure spite. Just so that you'll know I ain't no fuckin' liar.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 09:39:13 pm
Day ends in about...4 hours and 20 minutes? I won't be online for that so I'll have to leave a final vote before going to bed.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 10:14:59 pm
Quote
ToonyMan (1): Roden
Roden (0):
TricMagic (2): Webadict, ToonyMan
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (1): EuchreJack
Vector (0):
webadict (2): TricMagic, NJW2000
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (2): Vector, Maximum Spin
5 to hammer.
Which means it will tie currently unless I vote Web.
I've looked at everybody's votes:
Roden has been sitting with a vote on me.
Web placed a vote on Tric and has left it there.
I placed a vote on NJW and then moved it to Tric.
Jack has sat on their NJW vote.
Tric has jumped around everywhere from Roden to me to Web I think.
NJW has been pursuing Webadict.
Vector and Max aren't voting I believe, come on guys.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 10:17:30 pm
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 10:41:38 pm
1.) EuchreJack, Roden, and ToonyMan are Town. If either ToonyMan or EuchreJack are scum, they are scum together. There is no other pairing that works.
1a.) Roden is unlikely to be paired with anyone.
2.) Vector is slightly Town. I don't like that they're not here. If Vector is scum, they are scum with one of the bottom three.
3.) I am 100% Town. If I die, I died proud of my actions today.
4.) Maximum Spin really sitting back on this one.
5.) NJW2000 has made an extremely shitty case against me. Probably the shittiest case I've ever seen from him.
6.) TricMagic exists and hasn't done anything, which is weirdly not like Tric for a variety of reasons.
I would only be willing to swap my vote to NJW or TricMagic. Maybe Max, but that's just because it's too funny.
Post by: Vector on November 08, 2021, 11:01:11 pm
I'll answer other stuff later if I'm still alive, which, given the poison, I should be. So git yer outstanding questions for me ready for the beginning of D2.
(Sorry for the D1 laziness. I was out of town visiting friends all weekend, and then just got out of class/dinner now).
Post by: webadict on November 08, 2021, 11:11:17 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 11:28:05 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 11:30:53 pm
As has been mentioned, Tric is both cool and incompetent, which sounds like scum!Tric. GoodTown!Tric is cool and competent. WeakTown!Tric is aggressive and incompetent.
Web has also been playing more like what I've seen of Town!Web rather than Mafia!Web. The cold, calculating pursuit of scum. Seemingly goofy (but more subdued than when mafia), escalating throughout the day to a conclusion.
...of course, if Tric flips town, we should heavily suspect both Toonyman and Web for planting the idea of Tric as scum.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2021, 11:33:53 pm
4.) Maximum Spin really sitting back on this one.I seem to be consistently sleeping when people make the most noise right now. It is regrettable.
Right now, I most desire to lynch NJW2000. I could be convinced to vote for TM - uh, TricMagic, I keep forgetting there's two of them - because I agree that he is suspicious, but it gives less information. If nobody changes, I suppose I will.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 11:35:50 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 11:41:05 pm
...of course, if Tric flips town, we should heavily suspect both Toonyman and Web for planting the idea of Tric as scum.Come at me bro, I live with my decisions.
(I wouldn't be able to contain my amusement if the scum team was me and Web again)
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 08, 2021, 11:43:16 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 11:50:54 pm
I just want to know whom each of you think I should vig n1, if I had such an ability.
Damn, nice final hour discussion topic!
Honestly, you should vig no one. You probably don't have unlimited shots, and I don't see you as the N1 kill. Wait until N2 when you've got a better idea of who is scum, and perhaps those we think are scum will have actually revealed themselves as helpful townies. Vig N1 risks both killing a townie and losing valuable info.
I'm totally and genuinely surprised by this post Maximum Spin. Good job!
Post by: ToonyMan on November 08, 2021, 11:59:55 pm
Vig NJW if Tric is mafia.
Post by: webadict on November 09, 2021, 12:25:22 am
Vig me, Web, Vector, or Jack if Tric is town. Up to you who, but I think Web is the likeliest hit there.I know I said I wouldn't interact, but I wanted to say that this is probably correct. I'm actually okay with being vigged if Tric is Town because I will likely be a detriment unless you adequately believe I am Town. In order of preference for me is:
Vig NJW if Tric is mafia.
If Tric is Town:
1) Me. I technically disagree with this, but I know no one's gonna believe me anyway, so I might as well accept it. I will, however, flip Town. My role isn't particularly powerful, so I'm not detrimental to Town if lost.
2) NJW2000, because he's still not clear in this situation.
3) ToonyMan. If I can't live, neither can he. I don't actually think he's Mafia, but that doesn't mean I'm right.
4) Vector.
5) Roden.
Never EuchreJack, because I don't think EuchreJack would necessarily be right about this one. It feels like he took a lot of his opinion from Toony and I, and he can only really be scum with ToonyMan... Or maybe like... NJW? Not with Vector and not Roden either, probably.
If Tric is Mafia:
1) NJW2000. Easy.
2) Vector. Feels a liiiittle bussy. I'd see Vector do that to Tric, though.
3) Roden? At this point, you shouldn't be shooting anyone but the first one, but if you want to fuckin' yolo it, that's the money shot.
Never Toony, Euchre, or me, because those would be incredibly dumb (but secretly extremely funny.)
If Tric is Town, and if you do shoot me with your imaginary vig beam, please go hard on NJW tomorrow.
Nah, it's a good idea to shoot if you believe Vector. Poison at 6p is gonna be better, and if I'm removed, it's a smaller ring for Town to have as action confirmations.I just want to know whom each of you think I should vig n1, if I had such an ability.
Damn, nice final hour discussion topic!
Honestly, you should vig no one. You probably don't have unlimited shots, and I don't see you as the N1 kill. Wait until N2 when you've got a better idea of who is scum, and perhaps those we think are scum will have actually revealed themselves as helpful townies. Vig N1 risks both killing a townie and losing valuable info.
I'm totally and genuinely surprised by this post Maximum Spin. Good job!
Post by: EuchreJack on November 09, 2021, 01:18:13 am
Roden, on the other hand, has already revealed their ability, and in Round 2 was able to bluff/manipulate their declared D1 role for quite some time as scum.
So I think Roden is probably a good Vig target. Plus, every good scum team needs one active player and one lurker, and Roden could be the lurker in the scum team. Especially since the other two suspects for lurking scum are Vector (another good target, see below)...and you Maximum Spin.
Vector's claim of scum having poison could be a soft claim of having an antidote. But if mafia only has poison, town can probably win before that becomes a major issue. Vector could be claiming because they have poison and don't want to get blamed when the poison they as mafia use is detected. Or Vector could be mafia claiming poison when it doesn't exist.
I'm not sure why, but I don't see both Roden and Vector as town. Something about the claims makes me think one is scum, like that their claims can't mutually exist in two townies. Hence, why they're my suggestions for vig'ing.
I disagree with the vig Web if Tric flips Town strategy because we don't know what D2 is going to reveal. Several times in this tournament, the scummy end-of-day 1 player turned out to be confirmed Town in later days. Even Web doesn't know what might happen D2, since if town this is his first game in this tournament as town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 09, 2021, 01:25:35 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 09, 2021, 01:32:52 am
I would like to hear answers from the other three too! Don't be shy....or Maximum Spin will shoot you! ;D
Post by: Roden on November 09, 2021, 01:58:27 am
Tric is my choice if we're not doing Toony.
Post by: Roden on November 09, 2021, 02:04:10 am
If I had to pick it would be Toony or Web. It's too late to get into it more, but Toony's and Web's initial insistence that they could read other when last round Toony NK'd Web due to misreading him as town is giving me massive cognitive dissonance.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 09, 2021, 02:05:57 am
Just had two back to back ten hour shifts. I'm exhausted and just skimmed the thread.Uhhh, okay, guess that's that then.
Tric is my choice if we're not doing Toony.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 09, 2021, 02:12:16 am
Post by: TricMagic on November 09, 2021, 09:04:22 am
Have a Sandwich! (https://youtu.be/LKjR39gdSBw) (This counts as my bah post.)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 09, 2021, 10:06:44 am
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (5): webadict, ToonyMan, Vector, EuchreJack, Roden
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (1): Maximum Spin
Vector (0):
webadict (2): TricMagic, NJW2000
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (0):
5 to hammer.
"You don't have to d-do this." TricMagic nervously stepped back. As always, he tried to keep up a humorous demeanor, and gave everyone a smile that spoke of internal pain. "I'm innocent, I swear -"
It was moments before the clock would strike and darkness would fall, and even the dying light of the lantern would be suppressed. Despite that, Roden took it upon himself to give the final push needed to send TricMagic over the edge.
His was the first death of this deadly game, yet somehow, every one of those present felt like they had seen such sights before. A pounding sense of deja vu that came with a mass of headaches.
Before the day drew to a close, you took it upon yourselves to use TricMagic's death as an opportunity to determine his guilt or innocence.
But within his chambers? You could find nothing of note beyond a portable cart stocked with fresh sandwiches. A godsend for your meals, but one that brought you incredible guilt, now. Save for the guiltless.
TricMagic was Town.
Quote
Sandwich Vendor (town):
(Night) Distribute [target]: You give your target a sandwich. They are informed that they received a sandwich during the Night.
His death could only be the first death of many, however. Peace was never an option - not in this place.
Night 1 has begun, and will end Wednesday at 9 AM, Central/Forum time (or if I receive all needed actions early and have the time to process).
(If you can't act or choose not to act, notifying me regardless will help speed up processing.)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 10, 2021, 02:05:38 pm
Nobody had fallen, by all appearances, but who could tell what twisted evils had taken place in the dark? The dark that no eye could penetrate and no ear hear through. Hearts pounded and muscles twitched as the new day began.
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (0):
Roden (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (7): ToonyMan, Roden, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, webadict, Maximum Spin
4 to hammer.
Day 2 has begun, and will end at 1 PM, Friday, Central/Forum time. Or on a hammer.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 02:19:31 pm
Tric should have been a hit, I need to understand their completely illogical play for the future.
I think it's very likely there's a mafia inside NJW/Web with the other one being town. I think their fighting between each other looked very natural and I also find them extremely suspicious. NJW for what I said yesterday and Web because Tric was town, I don't believe Web would misread Tric and let Tric be mislynched as town. I refuse to believe that. I'm more inclined to vote Web over NJW currently but I will think about it.
I wrote notes during the night but I'm at work so I'll post them when I'm home.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 10, 2021, 02:29:07 pm
I am a voyeur: I can learn any abilities used on my target during the night.
I voyeur'd Vector and there were three other abilities used on them: They were inspected, targeted with an ability called "Prodigious study"and primed.
I do get some information about what the abilities I see do. Prodigious study lets someone copy an investigative ability their target has. Priming gives them the primed status, FoU wasn't more explicit about that, but I really do not think it's good.
Have asked FoU for more info on the priming, but it really looks like someone has some kind of arsonist role. Most likely scum, but maybe some kind of arsonist vig given Vector's claim about poison.
Any analysis later, time for food.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 02:29:44 pm
I'd prefer not to get Vig'd but the choice is ultimately yours Max. I won't Delay you so don't worry about that being an issue.I was scum when I said that. I was making up stuff to try to appease Vector.
If I had to pick it would be Toony or Web. It's too late to get into it more, but Toony's and Web's initial insistence that they could read other when last round Toony NK'd Web due to misreading him as town is giving me massive cognitive dissonance.
I can't read Web currently, he could be town but I kind of doubt it if NJW is town.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 02:38:42 pm
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 02:57:49 pm
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 03:01:32 pm
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 03:04:55 pm
I figured Vector had something that allowed them to see poison status, and that they'd also be poisoned, but I got nothing, so unfortunately, Vector has no investigative abilities.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 03:07:14 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 03:09:36 pm
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 03:12:17 pm
Nope. You wouldn't read me or Tric this badly as town. This is just like your Matrix6 mafia play before you blew up and quit.Yep, a guy with Investigation copying abilities is fucking scum, you got me.
Wanna try again? What did you do last Night?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 03:20:50 pm
Webadict
I did nothing and nothing happened to me.Nope. You wouldn't read me or Tric this badly as town. This is just like your Matrix6 mafia play before you blew up and quit.Yep, a guy with Investigation copying abilities is fucking scum, you got me.
Wanna try again? What did you do last Night?
I don't have a night action. I'm a vengeful townie, if I'm lynched during the day I can choose to kill one player. I will be targeting Web if I'm lynched, still want to go?
I don't want to be wrong again if you're both town, but D1 doesn't make sense to me if both of you and Tric are all town. Tric should have been mafia. Can you explain your D1 behavior with regards to me please?
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 03:24:37 pm
Vector is cleared by virtue of being primed.
NJW2000 is cleared by virtue knowing my action and target.
So I am really gonna be looking at you, Maximum Spin, EuchreJack, and Roden. However, Roden is semi-clear on virtue of having claimed, and I don't really wanna vote EuchreJack or Maximum Spin yet, because you are here without an action ready to claim.
Ninja: Fucking doubt it.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 03:30:46 pm
The question is who your partner is. I'm quite certain this setup is two mafia. I want to spend today to at least determine the most likely possibilities since I want to help before becoming confirmed town if I'm lynched.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 03:31:17 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 03:35:57 pm
Why did you defend me as a 100% confident town read on D1?
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 03:37:01 pm
That's it. I was hoping you'd be Town, and it'd be funnier, but I guess we can't always get what we want. If you are Town, you need to find the primer, because you're the biggest suspect atm. Shooting me or NJW would be seriously anti-Town, and I know you know that, unless you can prove I am lying. NJW being scum relies a lot on me being scum, unless they're Multitasker.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 03:39:02 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 03:46:01 pm
I will consider the most likely primer today as people post, but I'm not fully falling into mechanical bullshit unless it's coming out of a confirmed town's mouth.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 03:52:20 pm
Honestly, I voted you because of this post:
Tric should have been a hit, I need to understand their completely illogical play for the future.Don't feel sorry for Tric. Tric didn't defend himself. That's his fucking fault. But, he'll learn. But pushing the conversation to NJW vs me let's you take a backseat on that conversation, doesn't it?
I think it's very likely there's a mafia inside NJW/Web with the other one being town.
You get to be the active participant now! Congratulations! Bet you are kicking yourself for that one!
If mafia can mask their primer they will want to push for a lynch today on someone with "no alibi" kind of like with Max last round. They will yell and howl and point fingers with no rational thought as innocent townies are made targets during the day.I don't play the what-if game with you. If you think it's me, who's my partner? Also, why the fuck did I grab a potential poison inspect if I am scum?
I will consider the most likely primer today as people post, but I'm not fully falling into mechanical bullshit unless it's coming out of a confirmed town's mouth.
You don't make sense with your suspicion here. If it's not you, then it's at least one of the other three, no? So find them!
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 04:49:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 04:56:22 pm
But pushing the conversation to NJW vs me let's you take a backseat on that conversation, doesn't it?I am not taking a backseat on this.
From my POV I know I'm town so I strongly suspect one (and likely only one) of you is mafia. My task is to convince other people who aren't me, but if people vote me regardless that's partly my fault and I accept that.
I don't play the what-if game with you. If you think it's me, who's my partner? Also, why the fuck did I grab a potential poison inspect if I am scum?That's exactly what my goal is today unless you convince me otherwise. You are more likely the dangerous partner out of the two which is why I won't chance wildly shooting into the crowd if I'm lynched.
You don't make sense with your suspicion here. If it's not you, then it's at least one of the other three, no? So find them!Uh, yeah. I keep saying that's my goal. I assume you have resigned yourself to dying by my hand now, hence your attitude.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 05:01:04 pm
Web/Jack - this is the most convincing case to me
Web/Max - possible, need to check
Web/Roden - possible, don't think is as likely as two above
Web/Vector - unlikely if NJW is telling the truth
Web/NJW - unlikely due to their shitfit on D1
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 05:09:57 pm
But Day 1 of this round, you both said you could read each other.I'd prefer not to get Vig'd but the choice is ultimately yours Max. I won't Delay you so don't worry about that being an issue.I was scum when I said that. I was making up stuff to try to appease Vector.
If I had to pick it would be Toony or Web. It's too late to get into it more, but Toony's and Web's initial insistence that they could read other when last round Toony NK'd Web due to misreading him as town is giving me massive cognitive dissonance.
I can't read Web currently, he could be town but I kind of doubt it if NJW is town.
@Webadict:And only towards EoD did this change. Once Tric looked like a guaranteed elimination, you both started having more visible conflict with each other. And now that we have a green flip from Tric with no NK, the two of you are now suddenly at each other's throats even though you both voted Tric early. The final vote count puts both of you as the first two votes on Tric.My savior is here. Dude this shit is so easy, Webadict is town. Boom only six people left to choose from.I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.Nah, the right play here is that ToonyMan is actually Town. ToonyMan is so Town that I plan to pocket him without ever engaging with him. Thus, my play has begun. MUAHAHAHA!
...As I was saying, people just assume I'm town on D1. Webadict especially likes to do this.
I don't buy your argument with each other, it just looks like distancing.
Btw, I Delayed you Toony. If nobody comes forward as being Poisoned, we're gonna have a major problem.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 05:20:42 pm
You either have to ignore these questions or claim WIFOM and that I have super special scum powers that let me use a fake(?) action. It's really silly to believe I am scum with NJW at this point, and it's even sillier to think I'm scum with Vector, as the first would be extremely audacious, but NJW claiming the prime doesn't make a lot of sense, AND THE SECOND makes no sense because then I would've had to prime my partner, (or Vector primed themself with a reflect)
I just frankly think you're smarter than this. I am pretty sure you know I can't be scum. If you were Town, you'd be much more likely to believe these with some inkling. You'd have to accept that Vector is Town.
Honestly, I think if you're scum, you're also making a mistake. You are jumping the gun to go after me, unless you think I'm too big of a threat to live. I'm easier to frame on later days, when people are suspicious I'm still alive. Also, you probably should've been more cognizant of the fight between NJW and I and stepped in to try and point us in the right direction, which would've given you infinite townie points.
@Roden: It would be entirely dumb for me to be going after Toony as my partner this hard on Day 2, but I get it.
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 05:25:43 pm
I want Web or NJW dead today so this aligns with my interests at least.Ok, besides the fact that anyone claiming Vengeful while under pressure should just be policy lynched, your claim doesn't make sense for the set up.
WebadictI did nothing and nothing happened to me.Nope. You wouldn't read me or Tric this badly as town. This is just like your Matrix6 mafia play before you blew up and quit.Yep, a guy with Investigation copying abilities is fucking scum, you got me.
Wanna try again? What did you do last Night?
I don't have a night action. I'm a vengeful townie, if I'm lynched during the day I can choose to kill one player. I will be targeting Web if I'm lynched, still want to go?
I don't want to be wrong again if you're both town, but D1 doesn't make sense to me if both of you and Tric are all town. Tric should have been mafia. Can you explain your D1 behavior with regards to me please?
Vector claims scum have Poison.
Max claims Vig.
NJW claims an Arsonist exists.
Toony claims Vengeful.
Somebody here is lying. There's no way there's four different killing methods in this game, since with scum sharing a kill method it would mean five out of eight players this round can kill. That's a bonkers set up and I don't believe it.
@Max: I didn't target you, did you just choose not to shoot last night? What exactly is your kill method?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 05:31:28 pm
I wasn't being serious when I called Webadict town there at the start of the day. I put in the acronym tag that Web likes to call me locktown as town and mafia.But Day 1 of this round, you both said you could read each other.I'd prefer not to get Vig'd but the choice is ultimately yours Max. I won't Delay you so don't worry about that being an issue.I was scum when I said that. I was making up stuff to try to appease Vector.
If I had to pick it would be Toony or Web. It's too late to get into it more, but Toony's and Web's initial insistence that they could read other when last round Toony NK'd Web due to misreading him as town is giving me massive cognitive dissonance.
I can't read Web currently, he could be town but I kind of doubt it if NJW is town.@Webadict:My savior is here. Dude this shit is so easy, Webadict is town. Boom only six people left to choose from.I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.Nah, the right play here is that ToonyMan is actually Town. ToonyMan is so Town that I plan to pocket him without ever engaging with him. Thus, my play has begun. MUAHAHAHA!
...As I was saying, people just assume I'm town on D1. Webadict especially likes to do this.
Btw, I Delayed you Toony. If nobody comes forward as being Poisoned, we're gonna have a major problem.Excellent. I can't confirm you did this, but I believe you did. If nobody claims the prime on Vector then it's likely neither me or Roden did it.
Of course, if this becomes true for everyone then Webadict will have to admit the mafia are masking their primer somehow.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 05:34:51 pm
Vector is speculating about the poison and hasn't answered my question from D1.
NJW is probably telling the truth that the mafia have a prime/arson for this game.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 10, 2021, 05:37:30 pm
Couple of questions for Web and Toony:
Spoiler: 'd for your viewing pleasure (click to show/hide)
Btw, I Delayed you Toony. If nobody comes forward as being Poisoned, we're gonna have a major problem.
The thread is already getting flooded with less than vital posts, so I'm going to try and hold back on posting for a few hours after this.
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 05:40:39 pm
Ok, that's true, even if I did Delay your Poison, you couldn't have Primed. Jack basically soft claimed Watcher, which would explain the Inspect NJW saw visit Vector. If Jack denies visiting Vector then that'll be a problem, but if he confirms then everybody is accounted for except Max.I wasn't being serious when I called Webadict town there at the start of the day. I put in the acronym tag that Web likes to call me locktown as town and mafia.But Day 1 of this round, you both said you could read each other.I'd prefer not to get Vig'd but the choice is ultimately yours Max. I won't Delay you so don't worry about that being an issue.I was scum when I said that. I was making up stuff to try to appease Vector.
If I had to pick it would be Toony or Web. It's too late to get into it more, but Toony's and Web's initial insistence that they could read other when last round Toony NK'd Web due to misreading him as town is giving me massive cognitive dissonance.
I can't read Web currently, he could be town but I kind of doubt it if NJW is town.@Webadict:My savior is here. Dude this shit is so easy, Webadict is town. Boom only six people left to choose from.I did originally want to poke Tric but I'm fine seeing how Toony reacts to pressure.Nah, the right play here is that ToonyMan is actually Town. ToonyMan is so Town that I plan to pocket him without ever engaging with him. Thus, my play has begun. MUAHAHAHA!
...As I was saying, people just assume I'm town on D1. Webadict especially likes to do this.Btw, I Delayed you Toony. If nobody comes forward as being Poisoned, we're gonna have a major problem.Excellent. I can't confirm you did this, but I believe you did. If nobody claims the prime on Vector then it's likely neither me or Roden did it.
Of course, if this becomes true for everyone then Webadict will have to admit the mafia are masking their primer somehow.
Unless somebody is misvouching, Max is confirmed as the Primer.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 05:42:02 pm
@Toony: So, one question for you to claim WIFOM over or whatever you wanna do because you're apparently 100% on me being scum because you probably want an excuse to go after NJW Tomorrow when I flip Town: Do you think I used Prodigious Study last Night? If I did, why did I target Vector?I think you did, yes. You would have to be making a play with NJW otherwise which seems extremely unlikely. I don't really understand Prodigious Study as it would be useless for mafia to have it if NJW is telling the truth about how it works, which he should be if you're mafia.
...Okay, fine. Unvote for now while I sort this. Let me try to look at this under the assumption NJW and Web are both town. I strongly believe at least one of you is town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 05:43:19 pm
I voyeur'd Vector and there were three other abilities used on them: They were inspected, targeted with an ability called "Prodigious study"and primed.Fascinating. I happen to know someone who visited Vector, but I want to see if that person will claim first.
I knew, for reasons presumably similar to Vector's knowledge of poisoning, that someone has priming. I tried to indicate that to Toonyman ("prime suspect") on a hunch that that was his death-related role.
Question for today: If you could trade your life for TricMagic's, would you?
Not reading all the posts yet, but:
Did Max ever hardclaim vig? I think that was just a play/speculating. Otherwise Max is probably lying, but I don't think that makes them mafia just because of that.I did not. I can kill someone though. Potentially.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 06:05:03 pm
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 06:14:38 pm
Did Max ever hardclaim vig? I think that was just a play/speculating. Otherwise Max is probably lying, but I don't think that makes them mafia just because of that.Isn't Arsonist usually 3P? If we believe Vector, which you claimed to yesterday, then scum have Poison. Why would scum have Poison and Prime/Arson? Both are slow kills and I don't see scum having access to both at the same time. Plus too many actions are being confirmed, Max has to be the Primer in this scenario.
Vector is speculating about the poison and hasn't answered my question from D1.
NJW is probably telling the truth that the mafia have a prime/arson for this game.
If nobody claims being Poisoned, then my Delay confirms you were the Poisoner or Vector just straight up lied. But if they lied how could they be Primed? Only scum has a reason to lie about the killing method, town!Vector has zero reason to lie though. And if they've been Primed then I think this just confirms that they are town and telling the truth. Unless you're suggesting scum can pick one or the other killing method? Which if true, it just invalidates Vector's role if they're town since scum can just use Arson to NK in that scenario.
What I think is more likely here is that Max is either some weird Arson Vig, or he's 3P Arsonist. And the latter makes much more sense to me.
What doesn't make sense to me is why the Primer would target Vector when Jack basically claimed Watcher and said he would target Vector. We really need to see his results here.
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 06:37:04 pm
It's typically assumed that if you can kill and you're not mafia, then you're either a Vig or 3P. So what are you admitting to here?I voyeur'd Vector and there were three other abilities used on them: They were inspected, targeted with an ability called "Prodigious study"and primed.Fascinating. I happen to know someone who visited Vector, but I want to see if that person will claim first.
I knew, for reasons presumably similar to Vector's knowledge of poisoning, that someone has priming. I tried to indicate that to Toonyman ("prime suspect") on a hunch that that was his death-related role.
Question for today: If you could trade your life for TricMagic's, would you?
Not reading all the posts yet, but:Did Max ever hardclaim vig? I think that was just a play/speculating. Otherwise Max is probably lying, but I don't think that makes them mafia just because of that.I did not. I can kill someone though. Potentially.
Also I don't believe that you know someone who visited Vector. There's nobody left who could. I Delayed Toony, so both of us are accounted for. NJW claimed Voyeur, Web claimed Study, and Vector likely didn't self-Prime. So either you or Jack is the Inspect, and Jack soft claimed Watcher yesterday. Everyone is accounted for except you. Unless NJW and Web are covering for each other, you're the Primer. Unless Jack denies visiting Vector, this is just confirmed.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 06:41:06 pm
It's typically assumed that if you can kill and you're not mafia, then you're either a Vig or 3P. So what are you admitting to here?Being a certain kind of a JOAT, actually. It's a Fallacy setup, what're you expecting?
Quote
Also I don't believe that you know someone who visited Vector. There's nobody left who could. I Delayed Toony, so both of us are accounted for. NJW claimed Voyeur, Web claimed Study, and Vector likely didn't self-Prime. So either you or Jack is the Inspect, and Jack soft claimed Watcher yesterday. Everyone is accounted for except you. Unless NJW and Web are covering for each other, you're the Primer. Unless Jack denies visiting Vector, this is just confirmed.All right, since you're already most of the way there, I'll admit that I tracked Jack and saw that he visited Vector.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 06:42:40 pm
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 06:48:14 pm
Scumteam is Roden and ToonyMan, calling it now.I'm struggling to understand this. Do you think Toony told me to randomly hard bus him in the mafia PT? What am I supposed to gain from this?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 06:51:23 pm
I mean, sure, why not? That's something I've done.Scumteam is Roden and ToonyMan, calling it now.I'm struggling to understand this. Do you think Toony told me to randomly hard bus him in the mafia PT? What am I supposed to gain from this?
Are you interested in answering my general question above?
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 06:53:06 pm
Right. Having had a reread of yesterday overnight, I may have had a bit of a case of tunnel vision when it came to Web. Nonetheless, I'm going to be looking very closely at everyone on the Tric wagon, that elimination was pursued in some highly suspect ways. Especially by Toony and Web, so... still pretty invested in the possibility web is mafia, same goes for toony. Going to wait until people have had a chance to claim before I can form a judgement with much weight behind it.Honestly, I get it. I was rethinking through the possibilities, but I was perusing the case yesterday, and honestly, your case wasn't entirely off-merit, but I was still stuck in attack mode. I figured I'd be willing to not explode right out the gate.
Couple of questions for Web and Toony:Spoiler: 'd for your viewing pleasure (click to show/hide)Btw, I Delayed you Toony. If nobody comes forward as being Poisoned, we're gonna have a major problem.Stunning analysis Roden, but you seem to have missed the vital fact that someone primed Vector.Ninja'd by your subsequent post, which I guess I'll have to read properly, but at a glance looks equally uninspiring.
The thread is already getting flooded with less than vital posts, so I'm going to try and hold back on posting for a few hours after this.
When I saw you posted my exact action and the correct target, I figured it was entirely possible you're Town, which I'm sticking to for Today, especially since you also knew what it does.
If I had had more time Yesterday, I probably would've jumped off TricMagic and then started going for you, which seems like a mistake now. Oh well.
Honestly, as for why I targeted Vector, it's twofold. At first, I was planning to target ToonyMan... I was trying to think of roles that were death-related (as he had claimed) and investigative, and the best I could come up with was some type of autopsy role, but that seemed unnecesary. I reconsidered partway through because there was a good chance that Vector was going to be watched Tonight, AND in the chance that Vector had the ability to see if players were poisoned (Or could see someone using a poison ability or day ability or something.) I figured that Vector was also probably a Poison Doctor, but that also made it more likely they'd be targeted by a watch of some sort. It was a risk, and it paid off. The only other choice that was feasible was Maximum Spin, EuchreJack, or you. EuchreJack seemed like a person that would also be hit by the poison, so if I wasn't targeting them, it'd be more evidence away from myself, and Maximum Spin was softclaiming kill-stuff, which would ALSO look suspicious if I claimed targeting them with what essentially is a copying ability.
You'll notice that all of my answers are around what makes me look the least suspicious here, and that's because I know exactly how suspicious I look. You'll also notice that I basically lucked the fuck out of being immediately on the defensive. I'd like to think it's because I made a carefully considered plan, but, I'm happy with lucky too.
Spoiler: For NJW's eyes only (click to show/hide)
I mean... Hardbus? Your bus had no wheels on it, Broden. I'll call it a bus when he's at L-1. But, also, yes, ToonyMan probably would absolutely tell you to do that.Scumteam is Roden and ToonyMan, calling it now.I'm struggling to understand this. Do you think Toony told me to randomly hard bus him in the mafia PT? What am I supposed to gain from this?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 06:55:34 pm
and Maximum Spin was softclaiming kill-stuff, which would ALSO look suspicious if I claimed targeting them with what essentially is a copying ability.Oh damn, you have a copycat ability? Was it only one-shot?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 06:57:04 pm
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 07:00:04 pm
Ok, a JOAT can be a Vig. So you are claiming Vig then.It's typically assumed that if you can kill and you're not mafia, then you're either a Vig or 3P. So what are you admitting to here?Being a certain kind of a JOAT, actually. It's a Fallacy setup, what're you expecting?QuoteAlso I don't believe that you know someone who visited Vector. There's nobody left who could. I Delayed Toony, so both of us are accounted for. NJW claimed Voyeur, Web claimed Study, and Vector likely didn't self-Prime. So either you or Jack is the Inspect, and Jack soft claimed Watcher yesterday. Everyone is accounted for except you. Unless NJW and Web are covering for each other, you're the Primer. Unless Jack denies visiting Vector, this is just confirmed.All right, since you're already most of the way there, I'll admit that I tracked Jack and saw that he visited Vector.
If you're claiming JOAT Vig/Tracker then it sounds incredibly likely that you're 3P Arsonist, or possibly a souped up Mafia Ally. At this point we just wait for Jack to post. Vector too actually, we don't know if either of them were Poisoned yet.
One last: My role definitely makes it plausible to me that mafia do actually have dual poison/priming. Certainly I can confirm they both exist in the game.Prime, but not Ignite?
This is just an Arsonist claim lol.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 07:08:43 pm
Cool. This means either Max is telling the truth and Jack is the primer. Or that Max is lying to get Jack mislynched...except Max is a deadman if Jack flips town so lying like this isn't worth the trade.It's typically assumed that if you can kill and you're not mafia, then you're either a Vig or 3P. So what are you admitting to here?Being a certain kind of a JOAT, actually. It's a Fallacy setup, what're you expecting?QuoteAlso I don't believe that you know someone who visited Vector. There's nobody left who could. I Delayed Toony, so both of us are accounted for. NJW claimed Voyeur, Web claimed Study, and Vector likely didn't self-Prime. So either you or Jack is the Inspect, and Jack soft claimed Watcher yesterday. Everyone is accounted for except you. Unless NJW and Web are covering for each other, you're the Primer. Unless Jack denies visiting Vector, this is just confirmed.All right, since you're already most of the way there, I'll admit that I tracked Jack and saw that he visited Vector.
Got anything to say to that Jack? Web is your partner isn't he?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 07:09:53 pm
Still, Max is not as suspicious as Web or Jack in this scenario.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 07:11:09 pm
Ok, a JOAT can be a Vig. So you are claiming Vig then.No, I'm not a vig at all. I could use all my abilities without killing anyone.
Cool. This means either Max is telling the truth and Jack is the primer. Or that Max is lying to get Jack mislynched...except Max is a deadman if Jack flips town so lying like this isn't worth the trade.Dude, there were three different things used on Vector, as you well know, and Roden, however crazy he's getting about the vig thing, could be right that Jack is just the inspect. Missing obvious details like that is naturally suspicious.
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 07:17:09 pm
I did, give me time to respond to things.I mean, sure, why not? That's something I've done.Scumteam is Roden and ToonyMan, calling it now.I'm struggling to understand this. Do you think Toony told me to randomly hard bus him in the mafia PT? What am I supposed to gain from this?
Are you interested in answering my general question above?
And obviously mafia bus but why would I immediately bus him today? I literally opened up today by accusing him of being the Poisoner. If we were collaborating on a bus I'd assume Toony would make it look convincing, but he's barely even fighting me on this. You don't think that's weird? If anything, at this point I'm pretty sure he knows he got caught and is trying to make it look like a level 1 scum bus attempt to take me down with him.
He'd tell me to immediately accuse him of being the Poisoner and that he was going to flop like a fish once I accused him? What alternate universe Toony have you been playing with?I mean... Hardbus? Your bus had no wheels on it, Broden. I'll call it a bus when he's at L-1. But, also, yes, ToonyMan probably would absolutely tell you to do that.Scumteam is Roden and ToonyMan, calling it now.I'm struggling to understand this. Do you think Toony told me to randomly hard bus him in the mafia PT? What am I supposed to gain from this?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 07:24:20 pm
I'm actually going to take a wild guess and say that ToonyMan probably DOES have a Vengeful role but that he's also Mafia, so he can break a 5p lylo in his favor. That'll be why he'll be pushing for an execution Today on EuchreJack.Oh ho, so you do believe my role-claim? I find it hard to believe town!Webadict would believe me...mafia!Webadict on the other hand knows I'm telling the truth.
Of course, me saying this might make me look suspicious, but that's how I perpetually role, isn't it?
Post by: Roden on November 10, 2021, 07:25:20 pm
Cool. This means either Max is telling the truth and Jack is the primer. Or that Max is lying to get Jack mislynched...except Max is a deadman if Jack flips town so lying like this isn't worth the trade.It's typically assumed that if you can kill and you're not mafia, then you're either a Vig or 3P. So what are you admitting to here?Being a certain kind of a JOAT, actually. It's a Fallacy setup, what're you expecting?QuoteAlso I don't believe that you know someone who visited Vector. There's nobody left who could. I Delayed Toony, so both of us are accounted for. NJW claimed Voyeur, Web claimed Study, and Vector likely didn't self-Prime. So either you or Jack is the Inspect, and Jack soft claimed Watcher yesterday. Everyone is accounted for except you. Unless NJW and Web are covering for each other, you're the Primer. Unless Jack denies visiting Vector, this is just confirmed.All right, since you're already most of the way there, I'll admit that I tracked Jack and saw that he visited Vector.
Got anything to say to that Jack? Web is your partner isn't he?
Oh sorry, Max wouldn't be targeting Vector in this case...For this to be true then NJW is lying about the Inspect visit...except NJW can only lie in this scenario if he's paired with Web. But Max is also claiming Jack visited Vector. This thought process doesn't make sense.
Still, Max is not as suspicious as Web or Jack in this scenario.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 07:43:17 pm
You tend to have a certain way that you lie while claiming. This one doesn't feel like a lie. It could be, but... Eh? It feels like it could fit for the Mafia team if the Mafia was an Arsonist. In fact, it could be that you're a death-activated Arsonist? That might also be potentially Vengeful.I'm actually going to take a wild guess and say that ToonyMan probably DOES have a Vengeful role but that he's also Mafia, so he can break a 5p lylo in his favor. That'll be why he'll be pushing for an execution Today on EuchreJack.Oh ho, so you do believe my role-claim? I find it hard to believe town!Webadict would believe me...mafia!Webadict on the other hand knows I'm telling the truth.
Of course, me saying this might make me look suspicious, but that's how I perpetually role, isn't it?
But, I also don't really care, because you're going to give up on the search because I think you realize it's futile to do so, and you'd rather just die than potentially out your partner.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 07:56:13 pm
You are correct. I can't see a way NJW or Web is mafia currently unless Web is some weirdass two-action role so I need to reevaluate what's going on.Cool. This means either Max is telling the truth and Jack is the primer. Or that Max is lying to get Jack mislynched...except Max is a deadman if Jack flips town so lying like this isn't worth the trade.It's typically assumed that if you can kill and you're not mafia, then you're either a Vig or 3P. So what are you admitting to here?Being a certain kind of a JOAT, actually. It's a Fallacy setup, what're you expecting?QuoteAlso I don't believe that you know someone who visited Vector. There's nobody left who could. I Delayed Toony, so both of us are accounted for. NJW claimed Voyeur, Web claimed Study, and Vector likely didn't self-Prime. So either you or Jack is the Inspect, and Jack soft claimed Watcher yesterday. Everyone is accounted for except you. Unless NJW and Web are covering for each other, you're the Primer. Unless Jack denies visiting Vector, this is just confirmed.All right, since you're already most of the way there, I'll admit that I tracked Jack and saw that he visited Vector.
Got anything to say to that Jack? Web is your partner isn't he?Oh sorry, Max wouldn't be targeting Vector in this case...For this to be true then NJW is lying about the Inspect visit...except NJW can only lie in this scenario if he's paired with Web. But Max is also claiming Jack visited Vector. This thought process doesn't make sense.
Still, Max is not as suspicious as Web or Jack in this scenario.
I'm not fighting you back because there's no reason to. I believe you're a delayer like you claim. I believe you targeted me last night. I believe you think I'm mafia genuinely and honestly after I deceived you last round. In fact, your actions last night have benefited me greatly as I have no way to "clear" myself since I lack a night-action.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 08:03:53 pm
I don't believe Jack could be mafia unless Web is their partner. Jack does not make sense with anyone else to me.
Vector should be town here since they appear to be the mafia target.
That leaves Roden and Max.
But I think Roden is probably town, but he can't be here. The mafia become Roden and Max.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 08:24:42 pm
1. Roden is probably being truthful in delaying me.
2. Max actually primes Vector, which NJW spots.
Jack needs to confirm that they inspected Vector and everything here works. If I'm willing to trust Web then we should be able to mutually agree on voting Roden, however I want to be sure first by going through the thread again.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 08:38:11 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 10, 2021, 09:27:38 pm
Jack needs to confirm that they inspected Vector
I can in fact confirm that. In fact, I hinted D1 that I was going to do so. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327371#msg8327371)
Since NJW has claimed Voyeur, I should probably note that I softclaimed Watcher because I'm not a Watcher, but rather an Inspector. I can confirm that an action was performed on Vector. Best to get my investigative role out in the open, so it doesn't look like NJW and I are counter-claiming.
Still have to catch up a bit. I did not have phone signal for a while today. Also working. I had actually wanted to post FIRST, softclaiming Watcher and seeing what I got.
But like usual, NJW seems to have sprung his role quite effectively on D2.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 10, 2021, 09:45:02 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on November 10, 2021, 09:55:19 pm
One thing people don't seem to have remarked on: Max's claim to have tracked EJ is entirely unconfirmed. It was pretty obvious that the inspection role I saw was EJ, or at least I pretty much immediately clocked that, due to stuff like this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327133#msg8327133), in which he basically says he has it. I confirmed that the inspection role was used on Vector, so MaxSpin didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.
This could just be the bad luck of getting to the thread later than me, though. More inclined to believe that possibility, due to evidence he knew there was arson D1, and also the fact he was not on the Tric wagon.
@MaxSpin:
Quote from: Max
Question for today: If you could trade your life for TricMagic's, would you?Interesting if not obviously relevant. Depends if Tric could keep his town confirmed status. If he couldn't, then nope, don't need a sandwich vendor as much as we need my mechanical info, and his death was good in that I think mafia showed their hand in the wagon. If he could keep it, or we could keep my results and the wagon info after the trade... that's a difficult question to answer without seeing all the claims today.
Don't see any other questions for me, sorry if I'm missing someone.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 10:25:15 pm
3P ArsonistThis is a weird statement, but it was insightful, thank you.
Roden and ToonyMan are Poisoner Mafia.
One of Maximum Spin/EuchreJack is probably the 3P Arsonist. My guess is that Maximum Spin is the Arsonist, since they have a JoAT type role, but it's definitely possible it's EuchreJack, if slightly.
Luckily, one of them was probably poisoned, since Vector was primed, and neither NJW nor I would've been poisoned due to the way that ToonyMan started out the day. If I had to guess, it was EuchreJack that was poisoned.
If I had to guess even fuuuuurther:
Man, I wish I could prime people.Maximum Spin has an auto ability that allows them to prime anyone their target targets. It'd be a good limiter on the role, and it meshes with the setup (i.e. Everyone has targeted abilities.)
This is even further justified by this post:
Probably would've tried to convince me to copycat him.and Maximum Spin was softclaiming kill-stuff, which would ALSO look suspicious if I claimed targeting them with what essentially is a copying ability.Oh damn, you have a copycat ability? Was it only one-shot?
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 10:33:25 pm
Not only that, but that's why ToonyMan is bussing Roden! Roden isn't needed anymore, but ToonyMan is! It'll get suspicion off him, and allow for the necessarily double poison kill!
Maximum Spin had an ability to track EuchreJack, but the prime was targeted towards Vector, and I absolutely believe EuchreJack did it.
Fucking... I'm a genius if this is all right. You can all thank me later.
Post by: Vector on November 10, 2021, 10:33:42 pm
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 10:36:40 pm
Hi, I'm a 1-shot poison doc. I protected NJW last night. I was not poisoned.What a boring target, you should've targeted me, your BFF and secret idol.
But that's okay, my salvation is open to all Town, and today, that includes you!
So, I'm willing to defend this theory with my very life. Anyone want to counter me?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 10:44:42 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 10, 2021, 10:47:45 pm
This is even further justified by this post:I would have, but... not for sinister reasons. Rather, it'd be really helpful to have two of... well, either of my two remaining abilities, but especially the better one.Probably would've tried to convince me to copycat him.and Maximum Spin was softclaiming kill-stuff, which would ALSO look suspicious if I claimed targeting them with what essentially is a copying ability.Oh damn, you have a copycat ability? Was it only one-shot?
Maximum Spin has an auto ability that allows them to prime anyone their target targets. It'd be a good limiter on the role, and it meshes with the setup (i.e. Everyone has targeted abilities.)This is wrong. In fact, I can't prime anyone at all, directly or indirectly. I wasn't being hinty in any weird way, except, I guess, insofar as I have already explained that other people being primed affects my own power.
Your theory could have been plausible except that it doesn't account for who got primed, since I know it can't have been my doing. However... it would be consistent with observations if someone has a power that primes as a side effect, possibly without the ability to ignite.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 10:51:17 pm
There are no third parties in this setup, unless you mean a mafia ally which is not very accurate. FoU has stated the only possible alignments will be town, mafia, and mally.Ahhhhh, maaaaan. That would've been a cool setup.
Oh well, then it's a two-man prime-timer, with ToonyMan and Roden/EuchreJack. But ToonyMan is definitely in there.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 10:59:26 pm
I can confirm that an action was performed on Vector.What do you mean?
Hi, I'm a 1-shot poison doc. I protected NJW last night. I was not poisoned.Did anything else happen to you? Can you confirm you were primed?
Bzzz, wrong. Try again idiot.There are no third parties in this setup, unless you mean a mafia ally which is not very accurate. FoU has stated the only possible alignments will be town, mafia, and mally.Ahhhhh, maaaaan. That would've been a cool setup.
Oh well, then it's a two-man prime-timer, with ToonyMan and Roden/EuchreJack. But ToonyMan is definitely in there.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 11:18:38 pm
I (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328052#msg8328052) claim nothing, having no night-action.
NJW (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328054#msg8328054) claims seeing three things target Vector.
1. Inspected - Confirmed by Jack
2. Prodigious study - Confirmed by Web
3. Primed - Nobody has confirmed
Webadict (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328061#msg8328061) claims they used "Prodigious study" on Vector.
Roden (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328103#msg8328103) claims they delayed me.
Max (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328131#msg8328131) claims they tracked Jack and they targeted Vector. They also mention (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328116#msg8328116) a bit earlier they know someone who targeted Vector, although their timing is unfortunate as the only people who haven't claimed yet are Vector and Jack.
Jack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328175#msg8328175) claims they "inspected" Vector.
Vector (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328190#msg8328190) claims they protected NJW.
Nobody died, however NJW claims Vector was primed which nobody has admitted so we can infer that was the mafia factional action. A kill was likely not even attempted last night. This goes along with FoU giving mafia strange ways to kill the last few rounds.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 11:20:47 pm
It shouldn't work on myself, Roden, or Vector.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 10, 2021, 11:28:44 pm
1. Vector is very likely town. There is an unknown malicious action that targeted them according to NJW, who I believe.
2. NJW is very likely town. Their action is very confirmable and it wouldn't seem fair to have a voyeur that also primes someone. NJW continues the trend of getting incredibly useful N1 results.
3. Roden is likely town. If they wanted to frame me as mafia they wouldn't claim to delay me to give me an out. Does not make sense.
This leaves Web, Jack, and Max.
Web's Prodigious study is suspicious but nothing clear cut.
Jack's inspect is possibly suspicious.
Everything about Max is suspicious, but it honestly feels like poor timing to me. I really feel like they could have claimed earlier if they were able to, like before NJW.
Post by: webadict on November 10, 2021, 11:36:38 pm
Bzzz, wrong. Try again idiot.Rude. Seems like a bad idea to insult me if your plan is to convince me to not vote for you.
Web's Prodigious study is suspicious but nothing clear cut.Well, that's completely expected.
Jack's inspect is possibly suspicious.
Except it's not me, and it literally doesn't make sense to be me. I suppose it might be EuchreJack, though, so that's fair.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 12:02:51 am
Max (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328131#msg8328131) claims they tracked Jack and they targeted Vector. They also mention (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328116#msg8328116) a bit earlier they know someone who targeted Vector, although their timing is unfortunate as the only people who haven't claimed yet are Vector and Jack.
Everything about Max is suspicious, but it honestly feels like poor timing to me. I really feel like they could have claimed earlier if they were able to, like before NJW.I was off the internet most of today. I only got in here after getting back from the dentist. So yeah, I missed the turnover and a lot of the beginning of the day.
I'm... still only one person.
Ah, hell, Toonyman's spinning wheels here. I'm not an agreeing-with-webadict kind of guy (that's a joke don't @ me), but this has been obvious all day and I'm not going to put it off any longer. Part of me just wonders if I overestimated how good you are at the game though, I admit. But hey, I was right to think this last round and if I'd gone with my instincts instead of getting sidetracked I might not have gotten lynched.
Post by: Vector on November 11, 2021, 12:28:42 am
There are no third parties in this setup, unless you mean a mafia ally which is not very accurate. FoU has stated the only possible alignments will be town, mafia, and mally.
LOL. I told you, Webby. No survivor.
Did anything else happen to you? Can you confirm you were primed?
I can't confirm anyone else's actions, unfortunately. I didn't get them as part of my night results.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:05:17 am
You don't care because I think you're mafia. You spin shit on players when you feel like it, I haven't seen any genuine good faith trickery from you to find mafia. I hate that you chose to ignore me on D1 and I hate how you play as mafia because it pisses me off how you can endlessly throw bullshit such as made up third parties to make it look like you're helping when you have done nothing but cause problems. You insult players far more heavily as town and get genuinely angry at players for being idiots. I have seen no rage this game, just jokes and jests. Yes I'm pulling this card even if you don't like it. No I don't care how you respond to me. No I don't care if you vote me, it's a win for me still because even if you're somehow town you can feel like a fucking moron after because I sure won't because I know I'm trying my best and you aren't.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:11:23 am
@Vector:
That makes sense I guess, we got very lucky in the sense that mafia's night action was spotted by NJW. We probably won't know who gets primed tonight. Mafia didn't know NJW would spot their prime.
It makes a lot of sense you were primed first Vector, because you are probably the player least likely to be lynched in this current round.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:14:07 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:16:30 am
@Web:
You don't care because I think you're mafia. You spin shit on players when you feel like it, I haven't seen any genuine good faith trickery from you to find mafia. I hate that you chose to ignore me on D1 and I hate how you play as mafia because it pisses me off how you can endlessly throw bullshit such as made up third parties to make it look like you're helping when you have done nothing but cause problems. You insult players far more heavily as town and get genuinely angry at players for being idiots. I have seen no rage this game, just jokes and jests. Yes I'm pulling this card even if you don't like it. No I don't care how you respond to me. No I don't care if you vote me, it's a win for me still because even if you're somehow town you can feel like a fucking moron after because I sure won't because I know I'm trying my best and you aren't.
Personally, I think between Web and Toonyman there is one scum, and this post reads like Town!Toonyman. We didn't see this level of frustration last round from Toonyman, so it looks legit.
NJW shouldn't be getting such a free pass. They claimed 3 things happened to Vector. The Inspect that I alluded to on the previous day, and which NJW admits they knew about D1. The possibly made up thing that Web claimed to do. And the Priming action that might not even exist.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:22:26 am
I don't understand why Vector is a one-shot poison doctor, that seems extremely bad and pointless in this setup?
Hm, good observation. It indicates, to me, that perhaps mafia has more than one kill method of limited quantity. Like a JAOT, only they all are one-shot kills.
@Maximum Spin: I think you need to stop hinting and start claiming. I mean, I'm currently guessing what you are likely to claim, and I need you to make the claims so that I can start verifying if those suspicions make sense and whether you are Town. As Mafia, it is unfortunately easy for you to make believable claims at this point. As Town, you are on the chopping block, and if you want to be around N2, you should start claiming.
I can confirm that an action was performed on Vector.What do you mean?
I mean what I say. I can confirm that an action was performed on Vector. I am an Inspector (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Inspector).
It is a poor investigative role, but there are no limits on its use. I can do it every night, and I intend to do so.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:27:39 am
Quote from: VotecountToonyman (0):
Roden (0):
TricMagic (5): webadict, ToonyMan, Vector, EuchreJack, Roden
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (1): Maximum Spin
Vector (0):
webadict (2): TricMagic, NJW2000
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (0):
5 to hammer.
"You don't have to d-do this." TricMagic nervously stepped back. As always, he tried to keep up a humorous demeanor, and gave everyone a smile that spoke of internal pain. "I'm innocent, I swear -"
It was moments before the clock would strike and darkness would fall, and even the dying light of the lantern would be suppressed. Despite that, Roden took it upon himself to give the final push needed to send TricMagic over the edge.
His was the first death of this deadly game, yet somehow, every one of those present felt like they had seen such sights before. A pounding sense of deja vu that came with a mass of headaches.
Before the day drew to a close, you took it upon yourselves to use TricMagic's death as an opportunity to determine his guilt or innocence.
But within his chambers? You could find nothing of note beyond a portable cart stocked with fresh sandwiches. A godsend for your meals, but one that brought you incredible guilt, now. Save for the guiltless.
TricMagic was Town.QuoteSandwich Vendor (town):
(Night) Distribute [target]: You give your target a sandwich. They are informed that they received a sandwich during the Night.
His death could only be the first death of many, however. Peace was never an option - not in this place.
Night 1 has begun, and will end Wednesday at 9 AM, Central/Forum time (or if I receive all needed actions early and have the time to process).
(If you can't act or choose not to act, notifying me regardless will help speed up processing.)
A reminder of who voted Tric. Vector is probably clear. If the gun turrets currently pointed at Toonyman and Web are going somewhere else, they should probably be going towards Roden or myself.
I need to do an informal vote count before voting. But FOS Roden, while I (re)read Roden's D2 posts.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:29:49 am
NJW knew exactly that your ability was "inspection", so that's knowledge he obtained.
I think it's unlikely he's working with Web. I doubt NJW would entertain Web during the day. NJW's attacks on Web during D1 looked natural.
If NJW is faking their prime result that would mean the mafia are me and NJW, since the no kill would be from Roden delaying me. This is impossible from my POV and I think in general doesn't make sense.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:32:06 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:33:25 am
If NJW is faking their prime result that would mean the mafia are me and NJW, since the no kill would be from Roden delaying me. This is impossible from my POV and I think in general doesn't make sense.
What do you mean by that? What is your theory of the mafia team's night kill?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:37:01 am
Actually, Vector isn't cleared but rather must be on a scum team with NJW in order to be scum. But as you point out, NJW to be scum has others whom he should be teamed up. So it is quite unlikely.Yes. Vector as mafia would have to be exactly with NJW. It's an extreme gambit by scum and I find exceedingly unlikely.
Nobody has claimed the prime action on Vector that NJW claims to exist. This must be mafia's lethal action, although it's possible they have others I suppose.If NJW is faking their prime result that would mean the mafia are me and NJW, since the no kill would be from Roden delaying me. This is impossible from my POV and I think in general doesn't make sense.What do you mean by that? What is your theory of the mafia team's night kill?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:39:35 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:40:25 am
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:40:55 am
PPE:
ToonymanCool. This confirms at least two mafia should be voting me right now.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:41:26 am
Toonyman (0): Web, Max
Roden (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0): Toonyman
Maximum Spin (0):
4 to hammer
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:42:06 am
Reinstating the vote Toonyman
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:42:33 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:43:05 am
I would be a prime suspect of this prime action, however Roden has cleared me with their delay. This is why I find it unlikely that Roden is mafia. What this means Jack is that if I believe you the mafia team is exactly Web/Max. (assuming two mafia which I suspect)
UNVOTE
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:43:43 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:45:17 am
I'm a bit worried, since I think Web will do the same to save his bacon. Then Maximum Spin will see that he is on the chopping block, and you've only got to get one other person to vote me.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:45:36 am
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:47:14 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:47:46 am
If NJW is faking their prime result that would mean the mafia are me and NJW, since the no kill would be from Roden delaying me. This is impossible from my POV and I think in general doesn't make sense.
I find this hard to believe. Are you not capable of no-killing when it causes more confusion? Like, I dunno, last round?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:48:47 am
Jack I'm being as open as possible. I like your reasoning posts because you seem to at least be trying more than Web. I need to get as much reasoning out as possible in case I face my demise so that town have the greatest chance of winning. It's very likely two mafia are voting me right now.
I hope that is true, since I'm not voting you. It would certainly narrow things down... :P
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:51:05 am
I don't like how quickly Web grabbed for that other role that NJW mentioned, especially since Web didn't know for sure that I wasn't softclaiming Watcher / hardclaiming Inspector as a bluff for actually being a Watcher. It's what Web would do, if he was a Watcher...
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 01:51:43 am
If NJW is faking their prime result that would mean the mafia are me and NJW, since the no kill would be from Roden delaying me. This is impossible from my POV and I think in general doesn't make sense.
I find this hard to believe. Are you not capable of no-killing when it causes more confusion? Like, I dunno, last round?
I had to nokill so I could strongkill on N2. FoU has said mafia were too weak last round so it is unlikely they would voluntarily nokill this round. But yes that does create a possibility of Toony/NJW.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:54:06 am
Roden or FOS Maximum Spin could easily be lying about their role.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:56:24 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 01:58:31 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 01:58:56 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 02:47:43 am
Does anyone have any kind of protect left to claim other than mine?
I don't. Keep the # of uses to yourself, ok? We'll generally assume its not unlimited, so no need to explain exactly what limits exist on your protect role(s).
Also, if you have more than one, you only need to mention the one(s) that you've been hinting.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 02:49:24 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Roden: Do you still think that Toonyman is the poisoner if nobody claims to be poisoned?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Roden: Do you still think that we have too many claimed killing methods?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Roden: Is Max still confirmed as the Primer?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Roden: Do you still believe in a 3P arsonist? If not, is the arsonist town, mafia, or mafia ally?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Roden: Were you satisfied with Max's claim as tracking me? Does this indicate Max's alignment?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Roden: How relevant is the discussion of bussing?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Roden: Why didn't you ask Maximum Spin to clarify? I hardly understood what was the "General Question Above". If you do understand what Maximum Spin is asking you, what is your answer?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Roden: Could you explain the errors in the thought process? I'm not sure I see the errors.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 03:07:23 am
Does anyone have any kind of protect left to claim other than mine?
Also, I certainly don't mind if you wait towards later in the game day to reveal whatever protect claims you are going to make. Or even avoid claiming if you're not under any real pressure to do so, as my initial concern was before I did the vote counts.
@Everyone else: Protect claims will be more believable if you make them before Maximum Spin, not after.
Although Max has only hinted at a couple, so those are the ones you should be claiming, and maybe not other ones.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:03:39 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:27:37 am
Question for today: If you could trade your life for TricMagic's, would you?
Nah. Tric's role actually has negative utility when compared to my role, as it produces useless info. Plus I thought Tric was scum. I'm answering this question based upon the frame of reference that Tric would be here with their history and role instead of my being here with my history and role.
Frankly, if Tric wasn't lynched yesterday, with their role and history they would probably be lynched today. I really should re-examine D1, see how the lynch of Tric actually occurred. I had remarked back in D1 that I thought the seeds of doubt that I had regarding Tric came from Web/Toonyman. Maybe they were in turn influenced.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:38:38 am
Question for today: If you could trade your life for TricMagic's, would you?
Nah. Tric's role actually has negative utility when compared to my role, as it produces useless info. Plus I thought Tric was scum. I'm answering this question based upon the frame of reference that Tric would be here with their history and role instead of my being here with my history and role.
Frankly, if Tric wasn't lynched yesterday, with their role and history they would probably be lynched today. I really should re-examine D1, see how the lynch of Tric actually occurred. I had remarked back in D1 that I thought the seeds of doubt that I had regarding Tric came from Web/Toonyman. Maybe they were in turn influenced.
Actually, I reread the role, and think Tric's role is better than mine, even if it interferes with my role (which doesn't matter, as under this hypo I'd dead).
Quote
Sandwich Vendor (town):After two nights, that role should allow the player to become confirmed town.
(Night) Distribute [target]: You give your target a sandwich. They are informed that they received a sandwich during the Night.
Day 2 they say: "I am a sandwich vendor, please confirm that you got a sandwich"
Day 3 they say: "I gave my sandwich to [insert player name]" That player confirms, and they are now confirmed town...ish.
Still, I died first last game, so no I want to play this game for a bit. Sorry to be selfish.
I wonder if Tric forgives me. Will Web forgive me if he should flip town? More importantly, will my fellow townies forgive me?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:58:59 am
Maximum Spin first asks me about a non-existent TricMagic post. Probably a random probing question. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327091#msg8327091)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Web then jumps on some of Tric's Famous Poor Reasoning, and places the first vote.The fact they are using it to hide. By saying what their role is so early without promting, us being delayed would be seen as normal, town trying to stop the kill. But all it does is delay us, resulting in mafia being able to take advantage of it. It's also trying to get roles to reveal, giving them options on who to delay.No thanks. TricMagic.
Put simply, just because they revealed, does not make them town. If anything Delayer is a very negative role regardless of who has it. For one, it would ruin my own role's ability if it's used on me N1.
Web, for god's sake, tell me if I'm jumping to the wrong conclusion here.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 08:22:48 am
I am an Investigative Student. My ability is called Prodigious Study. NJW has shown I targeted Vector with this ability. I even explained my reasoning for doing so. This should be construed as confirmed.
I want you to think really, really, really hard on why you think I would have an ability like Prodigious Study if I were scum (which I would have as no one counterclaimed me.) You can call that WIFOM if you want, but fucking Occam's Razor says that that ability is Town as shit, because I am Town as shit.
I explained why I voted for TricMagic. I would probably do it again. I don't even feel bad about it.
I want you to think who I would have to have as my partner if I were scum. It cannot be Vector or NJW without ridiculousness. It probably wouldn't be ToonyMan. It isn't you, fucking clearly. So it would be Roden or Max, yes? In fact, it would probably for sure be Max. Toony, on the other hand, constantly is trying to include everyone as my scumpartner, including NJW and Vector, who make no sense because he has no interest in solving the game, but rather living.
ToonyMan. tried to push an NJW vs me fight at the beginning of the Day. This is because he probably poisoned one of EuchreJack or Maximum Spin. If he was delayed, this further incentivizes him to vote one of me or the person he didn't get delayed-poisoned on. You'll notice that no one has claimed being poisoned (Which I have no clue if anyone would be notified of this, but given ToonyMan being poisoned in NSVM2, I assume that you do get notified), and Roden delaying ToonyMan, it makes no sense if you believe Vector (which you should, because Priming), to not vote ToonyMan. (This is also why I think ToonyMan and Roden are a team.)
I am not omnipotent. ToonyMan has to treat me like I am because I won't fall for his inane garbage that he did last Round where he openly speculates on how anyone but him could be the scum, in spite of only TWO PEOPLE HAVING FULLY UNCONFIRMED ROLES (ToonyMan and TricMagic).
The evidence is pretty clear. It is almost assuredly ToonyMan. And his partner is probably Roden.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 08:33:43 am
I had to nokill so I could strongkill on N2. FoU has said mafia were too weak last round so it is unlikely they would voluntarily nokill this round. But yes that does create a possibility of Toony/NJW.Why would NJW ever claim Priming on Vector as scum?! That makes no sense!
I would be a prime suspect of this prime action, however Roden has cleared me with their delay. This is why I find it unlikely that Roden is mafia. What this means Jack is that if I believe you the mafia team is exactly Web/Max. (assuming two mafia which I suspect)No one was poisoned! If Vector is Town, this fucking confirms you're Mafia!
PPE:ToonymanCool. This confirms at least two mafia should be voting me right now.
Lol were you trying to quickhammer me?Everyone is Mafia but you, the delayed Poisoner, yes?
You pretty much have to claim one of Vector or Roden are lying, no?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 10:37:00 am
Because Roden delayed me Web has to conclude the mafia team is Toony/Roden, which isn't true and doesn't explain the prime on Vector. If my "poison" was delayed then Roden or me could not prime Vector. Mafia primed Vector, therefore neither of us are mafia.
Web insists I think everyone is mafia, this isn't true. After consideration I don't think Vector, NJW, or Roden can be mafia. Jack has seemed like town last night, but either way I would always want Web over Jack. I am also willing to vote Max, those are my two choices.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 10:42:14 am
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 11:08:43 am
You would be notified if you were poisoned, yes. Nobody has claimed being poisoned. I'm not a poisoner. I have no night action.True. Roden isn't necessarily Mafia. But if Roden doesn't vote you, then they are Mafia, unless they believe Vector is lying, since you are the only person that was delayed.
Because Roden delayed me Web has to conclude the mafia team is Toony/Roden, which isn't true and doesn't explain the prime on Vector. If my "poison" was delayed then Roden or me could not prime Vector. Mafia primed Vector, therefore neither of us are mafia.
Web insists I think everyone is mafia, this isn't true. After consideration I don't think Vector, NJW, or Roden can be mafia. Jack has seemed like town last night, but either way I would always want Web over Jack. I am also willing to vote Max, those are my two choices.
Roden isn't for sure yet, but that's who I think it is based on the evidence. I do admit it seems silly to have claimed delaying you if you're both Mafia, but it was possibly a distancing measure.
The problem I have is that you semi-consistently say Roden is Town, but they delayed you, and there was no poison. So, if you're Town, Roden should be Mafia (framing you or lying about their target or role) or there is a role that redirected Roden to the "real poisoner", which still can't be me because my action is there unless the redirector ALSO has the ability Prodigious Study, which, again, isn't a scummy action.
The reason why Roden as your teammate makes sense is that you likely correctly deduced that Vector was a Poison Doctor and thus had Roden delay you so that there was no chance Vector could stop both poisons. The Prime ability might be a secondary ability on the part of Roden, and is honestly the least of my concerns.
It is concerning that you think I am Mafia, still. Why would my ability to copy investigative abilities be a Mafia ability, especially since you think Mafia should be stronger? It would be possible for the game to be setup that way, sure, but it is less likely than a number of options that still exist, including the ones I pointed out.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 11:26:34 am
Roden delays ToonyMan N1.
Roden delays Vector N2.
I bet Vector being 1-shot probably really screwed with your planning. If anything, Vector protecting NJW shouldn't make a lot of sense, since NJW probably wouldn't be poisoned based on Day 1, but Vector can get headpats anyway for baiting abilities, as I needed them to bait a watch more than anything.
I really cannot believe you are ignoring the Prodigious Study so much, Toony. It should undeniably prove I'm Town, and you're completely ignoring it. But, I think you have to, or you can't make a two-man scumteam seem believable. But, putting me in a team should be pretty unbelievable as well. My action is confirmed to exist. It is confirmed to do as I claimed. It is entirely unscummy. So, you ignore it and press onward.
I will hit that nail over and over again because it is the biggest hole in your argument.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 11:45:58 am
Not a bad plan, honestly.
Would've been reeeeally hard for me to justify my actions last Night if my action wasn't confirmed. A series of fortunate events for me:
You can't claim NJW and I are a team, but NJW confirms my action target and ability.
You can't claim Vector and I are a team, but Vector confirms poison exists and was primed.
Those two right there should mean I'm clear to you (In fact, this ALSO applies to EuchreJack!), but I think you dug yourself a hole here:
The only remaining team to you should be Maximum Spin amd Roden! You would HAVE to push this team. Jack is confirmed to have targeted Vector and is the only person to claim the Investigate. This is a weak ability for Mafia, so it is very Townie.
But, if you're a Vengeful Townie, you should absolutely be wanting to shoot one of those two, no? Is my logic flawed somewhere, or do you seriously think the Mafia gained the ability to copy investigative abilities?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 11:46:14 am
NJW dropped their results immediately and is confirmable with others so unless they are pulling a bigbrain gambit they're town alongside Vector.
Everyone has posted, nobody has claimed the primed action.
Mafia did the primed action.
Nobody was notified of being poisoned. Nobody was poisoned. Mafia may have poison as well, sure, but there is no evidence it happened unless the team is exactly Toony/Roden which is impossible from my POV besides the fact that would mean mafia primed Vector and also tried to poison NJW but failed, which I would consider very unlikely but it's the only narrative Web can conclude.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 11:51:33 am
I don't trust you one bit even with "Prodigious study" as at least two people targeted Vector and I have a damn good feeling Jack is the clean one here and you and Max are the mafia.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 11:59:03 am
Narrative #1: Toony/Roden - Double poison N2 by Toony. Roden delay Toony and prime Vector.
Narrative #1b: Toony/Roden - Poison is naturally delayed by Roden (auto?), Toony prime Vector.
Narrative #2: Toony/not-Roden - Poison was delayed by Town Roden.
Narrative #3: Not-Toony -> Roden/Maximum Spin - Maximim Spin poison delayed Maximum Spin, whose action isn't confirmed.
You can't really go after EuchreJack or me if you believe NJW2000 and Vector. Our actions are Town-aligned.
Vector doesn't confirm poison exist. Vector claims they are a oneshot poison doctor, even if they are being truthful we still have no evidence of poison. I am speculating that mafia may have poison though, sure.So, then who did Prodigious Study? Why is there no poison? Roden delayed you, and there was no poison. Did someone really poison NJW? Unlikely, as they were super suspected D1.
I don't trust you one bit even with "Prodigious study" as at least two people targeted Vector and I have a damn good feeling Jack is the clean one here and you and Max are the mafia.
Oh, wait, another one:
Narrative 1c: Toony/Roden - one poisoned NJW, one primed Vector, and Vector just stopped a weird plan to get me voted out!
If that happened, Vector is smarter than me.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 12:10:56 pm
If you add Multitasker, then you have to believe one of the following:
Vector being scum means their teammate primed them.
NJW being scum doesn't seem possible, even with this constraint, unless scum with only ToonyMan, ironically.
EuchreJack or me being scum means the Mafia was given a fairly weak but Townie investigation ability (and I have an extra constraint that I poisoned NJW for some reason)
All of those are weak possibilities.
It STILL only leaves you, Maximum Spin, and Roden. Any of those three should be voting any of the other two, if they're Town.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 12:15:00 pm
We have vote you because you're a claimed Vengeful Townie, and you should shoot one of those two if you're Town.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 12:46:43 pm
You keep saying fucking poison when nobody was fucking poisoned last night. I am laying the facts as I see them. If you want to claim the mafia team is Toony/Roden that's fine, I don't see why that isn't possible besides the fact I know I'm town, but others don't so it's a reasonable thought.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 12:49:03 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on November 11, 2021, 01:13:41 pm
First off: mechanical analysis.
Spoiler: mechanical analysis (click to show/hide)
Positions seem to be shifting quite a bit today, it's getting pretty hard to follow. Yesterday, however, is much clearer.
I refuse to allow that everyone on the Tric elimination is town. So let's investigate that wagon.
Spoiler: why this leads to Toony and Web (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Web and Toony's big night (click to show/hide)
Ok then. What can we say about their involvement in the Tric wagon? This is crucial, as it involves information that is both universally reliable (i.e. written down in the thread) and concrete (caused the death of a player). This is probably what I'll vote on, unless I've missed something huge.
Spoiler: Web and the wagon on Tric (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Toony and the wagon on Tric (click to show/hide)
So... tentatively, I'd say Toony looks worse, and like a better vote. Subject to change, still need to go through today considering D1. The effort of which will probably kill me. Not in-game, just irl.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 01:16:44 pm
1. Okay, shoot me then. I don't think you're Town anyway, and if you are somehow Town, then you also deserve to lose if you somehow don't believe me.
2. Narrative 1a: Roden Multitask Delays ToonyMan + Primes Vector.
Narrative 1b: Roden has the ability to self-delay and Delay-Poisons anyone. You Prime Vector.
Narrative 1c: One of you Poisons NJW2000 and the other Primes Vector.
All of those fit, no? That doesn't even get into the fact that your role is completely unverified, so you could also be anything on top of these.
3. Me being scum relies on me or my partner having an ability that copies investigations AND Multitasker AND my partner or I poisoned NJW2000. Those are some steep hills to die on.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 01:25:32 pm
I voted Tric because they were more cautious than last Round. Also, they almost lost for Town last game, so I figured why not? If Tric is Town, they'll show Town sooner or later. Tric chose later, whatcha gonna do? Frankly, I would do it again with no regret.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 01:28:10 pm
Seriously, Toony, if I remove Multitasker for a second, the only teams viable consists of you, Maximum Spin and Roden.
If you add Multitasker, then you have to believe one of the following:
Vector being scum means their teammate primed them.
NJW being scum doesn't seem possible, even with this constraint, unless scum with only ToonyMan, ironically.
EuchreJack or me being scum means the Mafia was given a fairly weak but Townie investigation ability (and I have an extra constraint that I poisoned NJW for some reason)
All of those are weak possibilities.
It STILL only leaves you, Maximum Spin, and Roden. Any of those three should be voting any of the other two, if they're Town.
Post by: Vector on November 11, 2021, 02:02:12 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 02:18:46 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 03:45:52 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 03:52:47 pm
You would be notified if you were poisoned, yes. Nobody has claimed being poisoned. I'm not a poisoner. I have no night action.
Because Roden delayed me Web has to conclude the mafia team is Toony/Roden, which isn't true and doesn't explain the prime on Vector. If my "poison" was delayed then Roden or me could not prime Vector. Mafia primed Vector, therefore neither of us are mafia.
Web insists I think everyone is mafia, this isn't true. After consideration I don't think Vector, NJW, or Roden can be mafia. Jack has seemed like town last night, but either way I would always want Web over Jack. I am also willing to vote Max, those are my two choices.
This post is quite incriminating. If Toonyman was town, then he would have no need to bolster Roden. The logical fallacy that Toonyman is trying to push, and that is tripping Toonyman up, is that Roden's CLAIM of delaying Toonyman, a CLAIMED no-night action player, somehow means anything. It doesn't.
Town Toonyman should know that Roden could just be lying. Why bolster another player if you are town?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 03:55:58 pm
*I didn't actually do that, and you know that. I'm just trying to make a point.
Toonyman must be lying if he truly believes Roden's delayer claim proves Roden to be town. The question is about what.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 03:57:14 pm
This post is quite incriminating. If Toonyman was town, then he would have no need to bolster Roden. The logical fallacy that Toonyman is trying to push, and that is tripping Toonyman up, is that Roden's CLAIM of delaying Toonyman, a CLAIMED no-night action player, somehow means anything. It doesn't.This essentially summarizes my opinion too. Toonyman is playing below his level, dramatically and obviously so.
Town Toonyman should know that Roden could just be lying. Why bolster another player if you are town?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 03:59:17 pm
I think the only way Max could be a whiff currently is if it's exactly Web/Jack but I'm not really feeling that.
@Jack:
I find it unlikely that mafia!Roden would give me an alibi to the mafia night-action, but it doesn't rule them out no.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:05:45 pm
Vector - unless exactly with NJW, very unlikely
NJW - god player if mafia, very unlikely
Leantown
Jack - Feels like town Jack, has alibi. Could only be mafia with exactly Webadict.
Suspicious
Webadict - I hate their play in this game, maybe because they actually think I'm mafia but it's fucking annoying. Has alibi.
Roden - probably really did delay me last night, I can't confirm, but also has no alibi
Max - big question mark, no alibi
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:07:08 pm
And what have you done? Or your partner Roden? Quit shit slinging and help.This post is quite incriminating. If Toonyman was town, then he would have no need to bolster Roden. The logical fallacy that Toonyman is trying to push, and that is tripping Toonyman up, is that Roden's CLAIM of delaying Toonyman, a CLAIMED no-night action player, somehow means anything. It doesn't.This essentially summarizes my opinion too. Toonyman is playing below his level, dramatically and obviously so.
Town Toonyman should know that Roden could just be lying. Why bolster another player if you are town?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:14:07 pm
I think Max has been helping, but maybe I'm just reading too much into his posts. Maybe you should actually look at Roden? Or Max?And what have you done? Or your partner Roden? Quit shit slinging and help.This post is quite incriminating. If Toonyman was town, then he would have no need to bolster Roden. The logical fallacy that Toonyman is trying to push, and that is tripping Toonyman up, is that Roden's CLAIM of delaying Toonyman, a CLAIMED no-night action player, somehow means anything. It doesn't.This essentially summarizes my opinion too. Toonyman is playing below his level, dramatically and obviously so.
Town Toonyman should know that Roden could just be lying. Why bolster another player if you are town?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:16:38 pm
Unvote until I can confirm the number of votes on Toonyman, whom I am inclined to vote. I see the mafia team as Toonyman/Roden.What I am saying there is that a setup of Toony/Roden isn't possible. I'm not saying Roden is cleared. I am even willing to vote Roden if people decide on that instead. I will vote Roden or Max. I concede to Web.You would be notified if you were poisoned, yes. Nobody has claimed being poisoned. I'm not a poisoner. I have no night action.
Because Roden delayed me Web has to conclude the mafia team is Toony/Roden, which isn't true and doesn't explain the prime on Vector. If my "poison" was delayed then Roden or me could not prime Vector. Mafia primed Vector, therefore neither of us are mafia.
Web insists I think everyone is mafia, this isn't true. After consideration I don't think Vector, NJW, or Roden can be mafia. Jack has seemed like town last night, but either way I would always want Web over Jack. I am also willing to vote Max, those are my two choices.
This post is quite incriminating. If Toonyman was town, then he would have no need to bolster Roden. The logical fallacy that Toonyman is trying to push, and that is tripping Toonyman up, is that Roden's CLAIM of delaying Toonyman, a CLAIMED no-night action player, somehow means anything. It doesn't.
Town Toonyman should know that Roden could just be lying. Why bolster another player if you are town?
I am doing everything in my power so that town can win this game. Please read my posts.I think Max has been helping, but maybe I'm just reading too much into his posts. Maybe you should actually look at Roden? Or Max?And what have you done? Or your partner Roden? Quit shit slinging and help.This post is quite incriminating. If Toonyman was town, then he would have no need to bolster Roden. The logical fallacy that Toonyman is trying to push, and that is tripping Toonyman up, is that Roden's CLAIM of delaying Toonyman, a CLAIMED no-night action player, somehow means anything. It doesn't.This essentially summarizes my opinion too. Toonyman is playing below his level, dramatically and obviously so.
Town Toonyman should know that Roden could just be lying. Why bolster another player if you are town?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:17:58 pm
NJW - god player if mafia, very unlikelyJust in case we might be missing something, and a warning for Round 5:
NJW is probably one of the best Town players in this tournament. If his mafia game is equally good, we're all in for a rough time when the dice roll NJW as scum.
Ruling out NJW due to assumptions on his skill level could be a fatal mistake.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:20:19 pm
If people want to give suggestions for who I should target I'm all ears.I'm willing to vote Max or Roden, but I am still targeting Max if I'm lynched currently.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:22:20 pm
I am doing everything in my power so that town can win this game. Please read my posts.
I believe you, but it is difficult to examine all the players all the time. I think you got jammed up suspecting Web, and overlooked Roden and Max.
I'm now inclined to vote Roden, but not Max.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:22:22 pm
NJW is probably one of the best Town players in this tournament.I disagree, heh.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:25:38 pm
I had considered Roden/Max earlier in the day when I had first unvoted Webadict, but Web was pissing me off and I don't feel Web would misread both Tric and me which is why I am having a hard time trusting him. If I believe both you and Webadict then yes, it's Roden and Max so I'm willing to concede that.I am doing everything in my power so that town can win this game. Please read my posts.
I believe you, but it is difficult to examine all the players all the time. I think you got jammed up suspecting Web, and overlooked Roden and Max.
I'm now inclined to vote Roden, but not Max.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:26:47 pm
I mean, I thought that is what Vector said, but people keep trying to say "Nobody got poisoned" and blame it elsewhere. Why is not possible that Vector actually stopped the poison?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:30:23 pm
Uh, how come people forget that Vector prevented NJW from being poisoned?That would imply that mafia primed Vector and tried to poison NJW but failed. Vector claimed they protected NJW, this doesn't mean they actually stopped a poison unless Vector can clarify. I was under the impression that players aren't told either way whether their protection worked or not.
I mean, I thought that is what Vector said, but people keep trying to say "Nobody got poisoned" and blame it elsewhere. Why is not possible that Vector actually stopped the poison?
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 04:32:42 pm
TLDR:Seriously, Toony, if I remove Multitasker for a second, the only teams viable consists of you, Maximum Spin and Roden.
If you add Multitasker, then you have to believe one of the following:
Vector being scum means their teammate primed them.
NJW being scum doesn't seem possible, even with this constraint, unless scum with only ToonyMan, ironically.
EuchreJack or me being scum means the Mafia was given a fairly weak but Townie investigation ability (and I have an extra constraint that I poisoned NJW for some reason)
All of those are weak possibilities.
It STILL only leaves you, Maximum Spin, and Roden. Any of those three should be voting any of the other two, if they're Town.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:34:48 pm
Web/Max - what I want to believe
Roden/Max - possible, I'm not apologizing to Web
Web/Jack - don't want to believe, they pretty much own us here if I target Max but I think it's the least likely of the three at least
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:36:11 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:36:50 pm
Toonyman (0): Web, Max
Roden (0): EJ
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0): Toonyman
4 to hammer
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:38:24 pm
Toonyman (2): Web, Max
Roden (1): EuchreJack
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (1): Toonyman
4 to hammer
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 04:40:18 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:42:36 pm
Hey, I'm willing to switch to Roden if Toonyman is. :)Why? Do you believe Web and Jack?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:43:33 pm
I agree with Webadict and am prepared to vote Toony. I'm calling Toony/Roden.@Vector: Any chance you might consider Roden instead? Not that Toonyman is really any better mechanically, but his freakout seems legit.
You fought off Scum!Toonyman last round, does this play seem similar to that? Note the word usage and tone.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 04:48:01 pm
Alright, so nobody is voting Roden, and lots really should be.I think I will stay on ToonyMan, on the off-chance the scumteam did go for the double poison. I might've been convinced to do so earlier, but it required a different input from Toony. Plus, if he's Town, he's still the safer option, as he would shoot someone. But, progression is progression, and I won't slow down the Roden train.
Hey, I'm willing to switch to Roden if Toonyman is. :)Twisting that dagger, eh?
If you vote Roden, you prove the Maximum Spin/webadict team is no longer possible.Hey, I'm willing to switch to Roden if Toonyman is. :)Why? Do you believe Web and Jack?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 04:49:36 pm
Why? Do you believe Web and Jack?See, this is why I think you're suspicious. You keep saying dumb things like this, and I believe you are smarter than that.
Twisting that dagger, eh?Absolutely. What else would you do with a dagger?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:52:27 pm
+1 Stupid Townie Points to ToonyMan.Hey, I'm willing to switch to Roden if Toonyman is. :)Why? Do you believe Web and Jack?
Also, you play a lot worse when you are emotional. I discovered that to my peril in Newbie Mafia, to the point that I actually had to avoid pissing you off to get you to play better. Yes, I could have been MORE obnoxious in that game.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 04:52:42 pm
@Maximum Spin:
You didn't answer me.Why? Do you believe Web and Jack?See, this is why I think you're suspicious. You keep saying dumb things like this, and I believe you are smarter than that.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 04:55:39 pm
Actually, I wasn't expecting you to vote Roden, although if Roden flips Town, I will be blaming you for the push.Alright, so nobody is voting Roden, and lots really should be.I think I will stay on ToonyMan, on the off-chance the scumteam did go for the double poison. I might've been convinced to do so earlier, but it required a different input from Toony. Plus, if he's Town, he's still the safer option, as he would shoot someone. But, progression is progression, and I won't slow down the Roden train.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 05:01:11 pm
I think I will stay on ToonyMan, on the off-chance the scumteam did go for the double poison. I might've been convinced to do so earlier, but it required a different input from Toony. Plus, if he's Town, he's still the safer option, as he would shoot someone. But, progression is progression, and I won't slow down the Roden train.Oh, however, I do think the delay-poison is likely impossible unless there are at least 3 scum (not necessarily all a team) or multitasking (or maaaaaybe some kind of weird-ass passive similar to what you supposed I had, but this is Mostly Vanilla), because someone had to do the priming. I could have believed, at start of day, a townie with a power that primes as a side effect, but since nobody CLAIMED such, I don't see how it wasn't sinister.
In any situation in which the delay-poison is possible, Vector is definitely not confirmed town. Indeed, Vector isn't confirmed town in *any* case... mafia can prime someone they never plan to ignite.
@Maximum Spin:Okay. I don't really "believe" people. I agree with webadict on some things. I agree with Euchrejack on some things. I would consider Roden a valid lynch target independently of both of them, because I can indeed think for myself. In general, I am more or less willing to lynch anyone whose lynch I think would be positive, without strong preference, so I don't mind switching.You didn't answer me.Why? Do you believe Web and Jack?See, this is why I think you're suspicious. You keep saying dumb things like this, and I believe you are smarter than that.
I keep my promises, so Roden. That should be 3.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 05:02:00 pm
EuchreJack, I'm gonna say this nicely: You're pulling a TricMagic. Third impostering. Scumsiding. Anti-Town. Whatever you want to call it. The point is that you're purposefully blinding yourself for no good reason.Actually, I wasn't expecting you to vote Roden, although if Roden flips Town, I will be blaming you for the push.Alright, so nobody is voting Roden, and lots really should be.I think I will stay on ToonyMan, on the off-chance the scumteam did go for the double poison. I might've been convinced to do so earlier, but it required a different input from Toony. Plus, if he's Town, he's still the safer option, as he would shoot someone. But, progression is progression, and I won't slow down the Roden train.
If you want to blame me for this, go ahead. I didn't push for it, dumb dumb.
ALSO
LOL, YOU JUST GOT SCUMHAMMERED BY MAX/WEB!!!
Just wanted to prove I am, in fact, not scum by posting this when I could've hammered Roden.
Is this enough proof?
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 05:05:48 pm
Igniting is typically an all-or-nothing type of action. So, yes, they could do that, it's just a very silly thing to ignite your partner, so I'm not willing to believe it at all.I think I will stay on ToonyMan, on the off-chance the scumteam did go for the double poison. I might've been convinced to do so earlier, but it required a different input from Toony. Plus, if he's Town, he's still the safer option, as he would shoot someone. But, progression is progression, and I won't slow down the Roden train.Oh, however, I do think the delay-poison is likely impossible unless there are at least 3 scum (not necessarily all a team) or multitasking (or maaaaaybe some kind of weird-ass passive similar to what you supposed I had, but this is Mostly Vanilla), because someone had to do the priming. I could have believed, at start of day, a townie with a power that primes as a side effect, but since nobody CLAIMED such, I don't see how it wasn't sinister.
In any situation in which the delay-poison is possible, Vector is definitely not confirmed town. Indeed, Vector isn't confirmed town in *any* case... mafia can prime someone they never plan to ignite.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 05:08:46 pm
ALSOTo be fair, if we were the team, we are both smart enough to just not do it.
LOL, YOU JUST GOT SCUMHAMMERED BY MAX/WEB!!!
Just wanted to prove I am, in fact, not scum by posting this when I could've hammered Roden.
Is this enough proof?
The real reason we can't be the team is that we would have had to fight over which of us doesn't get to be a giant jerk.
Hold on, new post.
Igniting is typically an all-or-nothing type of action. So, yes, they could do that, it's just a very silly thing to ignite your partner, so I'm not willing to believe it at all.... the track I used on Euchrejack would've ignited him (and only him) as a side effect if he were primed. That's actually why I asked the vig question, because I knew there was a chance I'd be killing my target. So, individual piecemeal igniting is definitely available here. This fact is also why I think it's possible that priming and igniting could be on wholly separate roles.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 05:12:12 pm
... OH. THAT'S NEW INFORMATION.Igniting is typically an all-or-nothing type of action. So, yes, they could do that, it's just a very silly thing to ignite your partner, so I'm not willing to believe it at all.... the track I used on Euchrejack would've ignited him (and only him) as a side effect if he were primed. That's actually why I asked the vig question, because I knew there was a chance I'd be killing my target. So, individual piecemeal igniting is definitely available here. This fact is also why I think it's possible that priming and igniting could be on wholly separate roles.
The fuck kinda role do you have?!?!
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 05:13:12 pm
To be fair, if we were the team, we are both smart enough to just not do it.We both know I'm dumb enough to try anyway.
The real reason we can't be the team is that we would have had to fight over which of us doesn't get to be a giant jerk.
Also, lolol.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 05:15:27 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 05:18:40 pm
... OH. THAT'S NEW INFORMATION.A powerful but heavily downsided JOAT.
The fuck kinda role do you have?!?!
The real power ability, the one I wish you could've copied, is... well, I've already hinted at it the same way.
I don't understand why Max would vote Roden, I think that makes it unwinnable for him if they're both mafia. Is it Web/Roden?Because I'm town, you goof.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 05:19:45 pm
Well, okay, I've done YOLOier plays than that as mafia, so it's not really inconceivable, but I am actually town this time.I don't understand why Max would vote Roden, I think that makes it unwinnable for him if they're both mafia. Is it Web/Roden?Because I'm town, you goof.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 05:20:33 pm
So you have powerful abilities, but there's a possibility you kill the player if they're primed?
Needless to say, don't target Vector. We are very lucky that you targeted Jack instead last night.
Post by: Vector on November 11, 2021, 05:21:27 pm
@Vector: Any chance you might consider Roden instead? Not that Toonyman is really any better mechanically, but his freakout seems legit.
You fought off Scum!Toonyman last round, does this play seem similar to that? Note the word usage and tone.
I mean, yes, this is perfectly within ToonyMan's range as scum.
I believe that Max is town based on his last post. I'll vote ToonyMan in say half an hour if no one objects to me putting him at L-1.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 05:21:44 pm
... the track I used on Euchrejack would've ignited him (and only him) as a side effect if he were primed. That's actually why I asked the vig question, because I knew there was a chance I'd be killing my target. So, individual piecemeal igniting is definitely available here. This fact is also why I think it's possible that priming and igniting could be on wholly separate roles.
Hm, then it is possible that the primer is town-aligned, so that Town has a vigilante split between two Town players.
Ironically, Max's admission is fairly townie, since it's too incriminating for scum to make. Hence my assumption that this split-arsonist consists of a town igniter.
@Max: Anything in your role reference sandwiches?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 05:24:55 pm
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 05:25:15 pm
I don't understand why Max would vote Roden, I think that makes it unwinnable for him if they're both mafia. Is it Web/Roden?⢀⣠⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⣤⣶⣶
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⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠃⠀⠀web not scum? ⠀⢸⣿⣿
It's so weird that you're STILL going after me.
It would've been L-1 if Max was still on it, but sadly it is not.@Vector: Any chance you might consider Roden instead? Not that Toonyman is really any better mechanically, but his freakout seems legit.
You fought off Scum!Toonyman last round, does this play seem similar to that? Note the word usage and tone.
I mean, yes, this is perfectly within ToonyMan's range as scum.
I believe that Max is town based on his last post. I'll vote ToonyMan in say half an hour if no one objects to me putting him at L-1.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 05:26:09 pm
@Max:Well, at least one would have. I won't make any statements about the others. I've already shared useful tidbits, I don't think town gains enough from my fullclaim at this time. I'm open to convincing.
So you have powerful abilities, but there's a possibility you kill the player if they're primed?
Hm, then it is possible that the primer is town-aligned, so that Town has a vigilante split between two Town players.I THOUGHT so, but nobody CLAIMED it when they had the chance, you know? I was specifically hinting about it hoping for that.
Quote
@Max: Anything in your role reference sandwiches?Nah, that one was a surprise to me.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 05:28:42 pm
Toonyman (1): Web
Roden (3): EuchreJack, Toonyman, Maximum Spin
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
4 to hammer
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 05:32:06 pm
It's so weird that you're STILL going after me.I don't trust you, at all.
I'm too spooky as mafia so Vector won't believe me, that's fine I accept that cost.
Vector was primed 100% by scum.Hm, then it is possible that the primer is town-aligned, so that Town has a vigilante split between two Town players.I THOUGHT so, but nobody CLAIMED it when they had the chance, you know? I was specifically hinting about it hoping for that.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 05:33:21 pm
Right, some info from tonight.
I am a voyeur: I can learn any abilities used on my target during the night.
I voyeur'd Vector and there were three other abilities used on them: They were inspected, targeted with an ability called "Prodigious study"and primed.
I do get some information about what the abilities I see do. Prodigious study lets someone copy an investigative ability their target has. Priming gives them the primed status, FoU wasn't more explicit about that, but I really do not think it's good.
Have asked FoU for more info on the priming, but it really looks like someone has some kind of arsonist role. Most likely scum, but maybe some kind of arsonist vig given Vector's claim about poison.
Any analysis later, time for food.
NJW also gave the arsonist primer an out if they wanted to claim as town.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 05:36:36 pm
@Roden: If you are town, you aren't talking enough.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 05:36:40 pm
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 05:40:03 pm
Probably ToonyMan, if I had to guess. The guy with the "death-related" role
Quote
Death Arsonist (sk, survivor; super-rare; 4+ players): You can prime a player at night by dousing them in gasoline. During the day, you may set a fire which kills all primed players. If you die, your fire goes off automatically. Actions: prime (day)igniteFrom Xylbot.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 05:46:24 pm
That leaves Toony, Web, and Roden. The idea that both Toony and Web are scum again is not impossible, but the two of them arguing has been half the posts today, so that's a pretty marginal possibility. They also seems quite big on the idea of eliminating one another? Roden's dubious because of their lack of scumhunting D1 and their weird takes D2, but their vote on Tric is largely NAI to me because it came at a point where it didn't really matter, so the Tric wagon isn't relevant to my read on Roden. To be honest, I don't get why he'd do that hammer as either alignment, but hey, I guess it's one of those Just Roden Things I'm slowly learning not to flip out about. Still someone I'm worried about, but he didn't orchestrate the ML.
@NJW: I might be able to offer a possible explanation. As you all know, in Round One I hammered Day 1 as Mafia. One of my reasons was the analysis that mafia needs to look town, and townies generally have blood on their hands after Day 1. I wanted to vote because I needed some blood on my hands to look town. Shared guilt, unity in suffering, that sort of thing. Roden might have felt that need to join in the mislynch, and did so in a way that made them look better.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 05:47:25 pm
Hm, what if mafia needed Tric to distribute the poison? Sort of the opposite of the mafia needing Maximum Spin to kill off those who are primed.Heh, that'd be a hilarious setup, but it seems unlikely that mafia would be TOTALLY dependent on town player actions to kill, or they could end up with their hands tied the whole game. They're supposed to be stronger this time than last time.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 05:49:56 pm
Vengeful is death-related, that's why I hinted what I did.
@Jack:
I greatly appreciate your consideration into the game. You didn't have to do any of this as mafia which makes me feel good that it's not Web/Jack.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 05:54:03 pm
It's proooooobably because ToonyMan or Roden did it.
Probably ToonyMan, if I had to guess. The guy with the "death-related" roleQuoteDeath Arsonist (sk, survivor; super-rare; 4+ players): You can prime a player at night by dousing them in gasoline. During the day, you may set a fire which kills all primed players. If you die, your fire goes off automatically. Actions: prime (day)igniteFrom Xylbot.
Hm, so your theory is that ToonyMan needed to softclaim, just in case they were rolecopped? Otherwise that is too much information to give out as mafia.
I'm also not buying the Toonyman/Roden scum team. Their actions link them in a way that a scum team would not want to do.
I've also indicated that if poison exists, I generally believe Roden to be scum. Delayer when the mafia's kill is delayed seems under-powered, albet FOU does seem to like delayers way way way too much. Didn't Roden roll delayer already in the tournament?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 05:56:57 pm
@Jack:I appreciate the complement, although my eagerness is probably just because I didn't get to play a lot last round.
I greatly appreciate your consideration into the game. You didn't have to do any of this as mafia which makes me feel good that it's not Web/Jack.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 11, 2021, 06:13:09 pm
... the track I used on Euchrejack would've ignited him (and only him) as a side effect if he were primed. That's actually why I asked the vig question, because I knew there was a chance I'd be killing my target. So, individual piecemeal igniting is definitely available here. This fact is also why I think it's possible that priming and igniting could be on wholly separate roles.
This means both Web and I are now suspected primers. Either of us could have had Primer tacked onto our ability, in the same way as Max just described.
I think the test is to see if we were sufficiently surprised by Max's announcement. I think I indicated that I thought Max was a Firefighter, or that his tracking me was covering for a normal doctor. Heh, silly me thinking that I was being protected instead of being almost vigilante killed.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 06:14:40 pm
I'm also not buying the Toonyman/Roden scum team. Their actions link them in a way that a scum team would not want to do.omfg, Euchre.
I've also indicated that if poison exists, I generally believe Roden to be scum. Delayer when the mafia's kill is delayed seems under-powered, albet FOU does seem to like delayers way way way too much. Didn't Roden roll delayer already in the tournament?
"They're too obvious as scum to be scum!"
Who else is scum, if it's not Roden/ToonyMan? Just lay if out for me, so I can stomp your argument into the fucking dirt.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 06:23:06 pm
Heh, silly me thinking that I was being protected instead of being almost vigilante killed.Well, I wasn't hoping it would kill you.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 11, 2021, 09:22:44 pm
So... in the last three dozen posts since I last looked at the thread, a bunch of people voted Roden, not really clear why. If it's based on mechanical analysis, you're idiots. FoU doesn't play by your rules, so neither do scum. Haven't looked hard at Roden yet. Jack's thesis about the reasoning behind their last minute vote may hold water, but certainly not damning on its own. Roden/Toony a bit of a weird interaction, could be coordinated but I doubt it. Roden has been acting scummily, but I don't think mafia would insist on them both being on the wagon, and still sure there's mafia in Toony/Web pair. In conclusion, I have no idea how I feel about the lynch, please at least collate your ideas into one post in future.
Still want to eliminate Toony. Pretty sure he's scum. As far as I can tell nobody even looked at my case on him, but I may have missed it in the flurry. Also, he has a claimed vengeful rule, so it's only a loss if he flips town and misses. And town!Toony is a pretty good shot.
Web seems to be consistently suggesting that Toony is scum with a vengeful thing. Here's the issue with that: scum don't claim vengeful death-arsonist or whatever, they just let town eat it when they die. Seems like Web wants to push the scum!Toony idea but not elim. And I don't know what situation Web wants to do that in, but I don't like it.
@Jack: thank you for the votecounts.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 11, 2021, 09:26:43 pm
I made my reasons for this clear somwhere on page 95. And I'm going to bed now.
Post by: Roden on November 11, 2021, 09:29:04 pm
There's such an overwhelming amount of posts to respond to and I just can't. I literally don't have the time. I'm sorry Jack but I'm not going to be able to answer the dozen or so questions you asked me in that mega post. I'm sorry I haven't posted more, but I already said everything that was on my mind, and the 50+ post slap fight between Toony and Web hasn't given me any new revelations.
I stand by everything else I said. Toony is confirmed scum to me and it makes no sense to vote me over Toony. He then claimed Vengeful under pressure, which alone should be enough to elim him but everything else he's said has made it obvious he's mafia. If his play looks weak it's because he got caught. The only way to turn it around and save his actual mafia partner is to make it look like I'm bussing him so he can get another townie out of here. This is damn near the exact same shit that happened last round and everyone's just letting it happen AGAIN! I feel like I'm losing my mind!
I'm voting Toony and hoping you guys don't vote me out for catching scum two rounds in a row. I'm full claiming to my Night 2 action and will Delay Max because it honestly just looks like Toony is 50/50 distancing with both Web and Max so we can't figure out who his actual scum buddy is.
Post by: Roden on November 11, 2021, 09:34:38 pm
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 10:01:09 pm
Like do none of you see that Toony repeatedly said "Roden is probably town" over and over and over, but then voted me? He isn't pushing his actual scum reads, he's just trying to survive. Why would a Vengeful Townie try to lynch his town read?Yes, I do see that. That's why I'm voting Toony.
Web seems to be consistently suggesting that Toony is scum with a vengeful thing. Here's the issue with that: scum don't claim vengeful death-arsonist or whatever, they just let town eat it when they die. Seems like Web wants to push the scum!Toony idea but not elim. And I don't know what situation Web wants to do that in, but I don't like it.8| Sure.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 10:34:00 pm
will Delay Max because it honestly just looks like Toony is 50/50 distancing with both Web and Max so we can't figure out who his actual scum buddy is.If you're town this is the single worst idea anyone has had this game. Like, seriously, now I pretty much HAVE to lynch you. If you flip town I promise to make up for it.
There are at least three other people I would have been willing to lynch. I only voted you as part of an exchange with Toony, it's not like I was married to the idea. But now that you have suggested that you will do that, you are extremely dangerous to me.
Unless... hold on a sec.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 11, 2021, 10:40:08 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 11, 2021, 10:43:13 pm
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 10:53:36 pm
Huh. I notice there isn't even a role that delays people (anywhere I can see) on the mafiascum wiki. Are we sure that delaying is even a thing in this setup? Granted, Fallacy said most roles would be there, but...Delayer is a real role. Not sure why it wouldn't be there, though.
I'm pretty sure Vector will vote me over Roden here so let me just say I will be targeting Web or Roden.Fucking shoot me, then. If you're Town and play this shitty, we both deserve to lose. Way to threaten Town, lolol.
... I mean... If Roden is Delaying you, then it sort of proves they're Town, no?will Delay Max because it honestly just looks like Toony is 50/50 distancing with both Web and Max so we can't figure out who his actual scum buddy is.If you're town this is the single worst idea anyone has had this game. Like, seriously, now I pretty much HAVE to lynch you. If you flip town I promise to make up for it.
There are at least three other people I would have been willing to lynch. I only voted you as part of an exchange with Toony, it's not like I was married to the idea. But now that you have suggested that you will do that, you are extremely dangerous to me.
Unless... hold on a sec.
Post by: Roden on November 11, 2021, 11:01:16 pm
Why wouldn't I Delay you? I suspect you and you're voting me over Toony! Give me one good reason that I shouldn't Delay you. Give an alternative. I have no reason to Delay anyone on Toony's wagon, if they were scum they'd just hammer me. Vector's a Poison Doc, so obviously not getting Delayed. It just leaves Jack, who I admit could be the Primer if it isn't you.will Delay Max because it honestly just looks like Toony is 50/50 distancing with both Web and Max so we can't figure out who his actual scum buddy is.If you're town this is the single worst idea anyone has had this game. Like, seriously, now I pretty much HAVE to lynch you. If you flip town I promise to make up for it.
There are at least three other people I would have been willing to lynch. I only voted you as part of an exchange with Toony, it's not like I was married to the idea. But now that you have suggested that you will do that, you are extremely dangerous to me.
Unless... hold on a sec.
Huh. I notice there isn't even a role that delays people (anywhere I can see) on the mafiascum wiki. Are we sure that delaying is even a thing in this setup? Granted, Fallacy said most roles would be there, but...We had a Town Delayer during the first round.
I'm pretty sure Vector will vote me over Roden here so let me just say I will be targeting Web or Roden.Wtf are you doing Toony? How did you go from "Roden is town, don't lynch him" to "Roden is town but needs to get lynched or Venge'd"?
Post by: Roden on November 11, 2021, 11:07:54 pm
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 11:23:19 pm
Seriously, dude, you would've looked more Town if you'd have made an attempt to logically breakdown the game. I gave you the tools to solve the game. I gave you the most optimal solutions and the ways you could be scum, but I also gave the ways that it couldn't be you. I broke the game down to its core and attempted to solve it.
I HAVE AN ABILITY THAT IS PRO-TOWN. I AM PROVEN TO HAVE DONE THIS ABILITY.
Why isn't your first thought "Web is probably Town"? No, you've done everything BUT try to rationalize that decision. You're not trying to rationally talk me out of this decision. You're trying to threaten me out of it. That's fucking anti-Town shit when you're in a position like this. In fact, it's not even aimed at me. It's aimed at everyone else. It's a threat: "I'll shoot Town if you do this!" Wow, how Townie of you, may I have another?
You didn't narrow down suspects. You did jackshit other than try to frame me. So, of course you are scum. If you defend Roden who claimed Delaying you, of course you're the main suspect. If you try to setup a fight between NJW and I, of fucking course you're scum! This isn't a brainbuster. It's me not letting you get away with the delay tactics you do. YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOU'RE TOWN, AND YOU HAVEN'T BECAUSE YOU AREN'T!
I have narrowed down the pool to three suspects. What was your elimination? "It ain't NJW/Vector, but it sure is ANYONE ELSE NAMED WEBADICT!" Real insights. Top notch. You had to go for Roden/Max, and you still can't even muster it. Now you're trying to reach for Roden/Web? Oh, how about Web/NJW? Oh, why not Web/Jack again! That'll make sense this time if I liquify my brain a bit.
I spent the entire Day trying to get you to show how I could be scum, and I broke each and every one of those, and instead of changing your mind, you doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down. You're STILL DOING IT.
I am not scum. NJW is not scum. Vector is not scum. EuchreJack is not scum. You forcing this makes you look like the scummiest scum that ever did scum. And the most logical reason?
Because you're scum.
Post by: webadict on November 11, 2021, 11:41:51 pm
"Wait, the ability was given to scum, and instead of Poisoning, webadict used this ability... to gain an investigation power... To... uh...?"
"Oh no, webadict actually is a Multitasker Arsonist... Investigative Student, so that he could FAKE HIS ABILITY AND... arson... Vector??"
"No, wait, I got it, webadict is actually a Multitasker Arsonist... Fakeabilityuser! webadict made a fake ability to show up as! That's a normal role in this game!?"
"No no no, webadict is actually Two Gnomes in a Trenchcoat, One of Which is Studying to Become a Police Officer in Their Spare Time, obviously! That's how he can have two abilities at once, but he's forced to learn investigation abilities as his downside!"
"No no no no, wait, this time it's actually..."
I think I will call this the Infinite Lemons Theory of Scummitude.
What if webadict has infinite hands and infinite mouths to infinitely feed himself infinite lemons? But he does not, nor is it likely he will, so we should not consider such an idea.
If an accusing person's idea that a person is scum involves giving that person more and more abilities and contrivances to counteract the evidence, then the accused is probably Town, and the accuser is probably scum.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 12, 2021, 12:39:43 am
Max why are you so scared of getting Delayed if you're just a JOAT Tracker? You keep hinting at Vig but refuse to claim Vig. From your perspective, nobody can be Primer except Jack if it isn't you. So where's the suspicion towards Jack? Why not tell me to Delay Jack instead of threatening to purposely mislynch me just so you can Track someone tonight?Why can only Jack be the primer? Why can't you be the primer?
I am not a... what even is a "JOAT Tracker"? Do you not know what a JOAT is? I get a bunch of different powers. Including the one which I was going to use tonight, if you don't delay me. But if you do I will probably die before I can use it.
... I mean... If Roden is Delaying you, then it sort of proves they're Town, no?Sure, but if Roden is lynched and flips town, that ALSO proves he's town, and then you can have Roden back, if I don't get delayed.
I wasn't kidding about the question, guys. I can actually do that.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 12, 2021, 12:52:39 am
Post by: Roden on November 12, 2021, 01:07:34 am
How can I be the Primer if I Delayed Toony? Even if you want to suggest Multitasking, I still said early into Day 1 that if a Watcher exists that they should be on Vector, which Jack agreed to after heavily soft claiming that he indeed was a Watcher. Why would I Prime Vector instead of literally anybody else who didn't have the threat of a Watcher visiting them? What is the logic behind that?Max why are you so scared of getting Delayed if you're just a JOAT Tracker? You keep hinting at Vig but refuse to claim Vig. From your perspective, nobody can be Primer except Jack if it isn't you. So where's the suspicion towards Jack? Why not tell me to Delay Jack instead of threatening to purposely mislynch me just so you can Track someone tonight?Why can only Jack be the primer? Why can't you be the primer?
I am not a... what even is a "JOAT Tracker"? Do you not know what a JOAT is? I get a bunch of different powers. Including the one which I was going to use tonight, if you don't delay me. But if you do I will probably die before I can use it.... I mean... If Roden is Delaying you, then it sort of proves they're Town, no?Sure, but if Roden is lynched and flips town, that ALSO proves he's town, and then you can have Roden back, if I don't get delayed.
I wasn't kidding about the question, guys. I can actually do that.
I called you a JOAT Tracker because the only hard claim you've made is JOAT with Night 1 Tracker option.
Would you move your vote off of me if I chose to Delay someone else?
Post by: Roden on November 12, 2021, 01:09:02 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 12, 2021, 01:10:35 am
How can I be the Primer if I Delayed Toony?I have no reason to believe you did. Toony himself claims to have no action anyway.
Post by: Vector on November 12, 2021, 01:21:15 am
Anyway, Web is town, he has dropped none of his personal scumtells and I agree the old Toonster has slipped into his scumsided play.
Post by: Roden on November 12, 2021, 01:23:50 am
Nobody else is claiming getting Delayed though, and my role PM says my target will know since they'll get a message about their action failing. Like I actually can't fake this.How can I be the Primer if I Delayed Toony?I have no reason to believe you did. Toony himself claims to have no action anyway.
Why are you believing Toony over me after literally everything he said today anyway? I seriously don't understand.
Post by: Roden on November 12, 2021, 01:28:35 am
Give me a suitable Delay target if you don't want it to be you, Max.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 12, 2021, 01:34:37 am
Nobody else is claiming getting Delayed though, and my role PM says my target will know since they'll get a message about their action failing. Like I actually can't fake this.I mean... it could be that nobody got delayed at all because there's no delay. I hope there's no delay, then you can't stop me.
Why are you believing Toony over me after literally everything he said today anyway? I seriously don't understand.
I'm not really "believing Toony over you". If anything, Toony is the one I most think is scum. I would much rather lynch Toonyman and rez him in the unlikely event that he is town, or TricMagic if he isn't. But then you come in promising to delay me!
There's this really old strategy game called Netrek. In Netrek, you pick up armies from planets to invade planets, and if your ship gets shot down while carrying armies, they are lost forever. When that happens with the last few crucial armies a team has left, it's called "dying with the armies" (which sounds generic but means dying with the armies), and it's terribly shameful.
For me to die without getting to use this power would be dying with the armies. I would rather lynch and potentially have to rez you, where at least there'd be a confirmed townie, than have my life be wasted.
Delay anyone else you like. You think it's Jack, delay Jack. That's all I'm asking.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 12, 2021, 02:27:03 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 12, 2021, 02:29:40 am
Updated Unofficial Votecount:
Toonyman (4): Web, NJW, Roden, Vector
Roden (3): EuchreJack, Toonyman, Maximum Spin
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
4 to hammer
Post by: ToonyMan on November 12, 2021, 09:47:27 am
See you guys after visiting my lost family.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 12, 2021, 02:46:36 pm
Quote from: Votecount
Toonyman (4): webadict, NJW2000, Roden, Vector
Roden (3): EuchreJack, ToonyMan, Maximum Spin
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (0):
4 to hammer.
webadict (nobody could figure out if he was the real webadict or simply someone borrowing his name) stepped forth. "It must be ToonyMan. Who's with me?!" As it turned out, enough people to push ToonyMan off into the execution pit.
It wasn't ToonyMan, and his ghost looked very displeased with you all.
ToonyMan was Town.
From the emanations of his now-spectral form, his specialty was clear enough. His face twisted into a rictus of anger and suffering, and he vanished through the ceiling.
Quote
Vengeful Roleblocker (town):
(Auto) Vengeful Roleblocker: When you are executed during the Day, during the following Night you may choose one player to haunt, which blocks their Night action (if they attempted any). They will be told that they were roleblocked if this does occur.
A clock chimed, singing of death.
Darkness fell onto you all, near-suffocating in its intensity and obscuration.
It almost seemed to be getting worse, if darkness could do that.
There was still the presence of something sinister in the room, making your hearts pound and shudder.
Night 2 has begun, and will end at 2 PM, Saturday, Central/Forum time. Or when all Night actions are ready to be processed and I have the time to do so.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 13, 2021, 05:14:29 pm
They still tasted good, at least. Sure, maybe some of you would have preferred hot dogs, but you decided to take what you could get for food in this hellish death game.
Hold on. Something wasn't right.
ToonyMan took another bite of his sandwich, then looked up at you all. "What?"
ToonyMan has revived.
Quote from: Votecount
ToonyMan (0):
Roden (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (0):
webadict (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (7): ToonyMan, Roden, EuchreJack, NJW2000, Vector, webadict, Maximum Spin
4 to hammer.
Day 3 has begun, and will end 4 PM Monday, Central/Forum time, or on a hammer.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 05:38:01 pm
Needless to say, Max must have res'd me like he said he would.
I roleblocked Roden last night as a ghost. I was lying about being a Vengeful kill role. I am in fact a Vengeful Roleblocker.
I never thought I would be in a game where I write notes while dead, but I did under the hope that Max wasn't lying.
Spoiler: Angry N2 ghost notes (click to show/hide)
Nobody was killed at night again, so if I had to guess it's very likely NJW was primed last night. If someone was poisoned last night please claim so. Assuming two mafia this might be lylo considering the amount of players that are probably set up to die.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 05:39:08 pm
@Everyone else: Let's let Wuba give us his results first, perhaps.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 05:41:13 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 05:47:39 pm
Fourth of all, I will never include alignment conversion in a game with less than 13 players, and even when it's an option it will not be deployed in an unlimited form.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 05:49:18 pm
My gut never believed this central voyeur triangle supposedly clearing people thing to begin with. I only accepted the Toony lynch because, simply, I didn't know that Toony tends to make mistakes under threat like Jack said, so the mistakes looked suspicious to me. I usually trust my gut more than this. This is the same mistake I made last d2, basically, when I got distracted over the Tric/Vector possibility I had considered minor before.
I was not informed of being primed or poisoned or anything last night, possibly because I implied I would die from using my ability anyway.
In case it wasn't obvious, I lied about that. But I can't do that again, sadly. Sorry Tric, would if I could.
Fourth of all, I will never include alignment conversion in a game with less than 13 players, and even when it's an option it will not be deployed in an unlimited form.
Thirdly, it is possible for role flips to be obscured by a Janitor, but role flips will not lie (though let's be honest, this is just basic decency - I'm not running a bastard game).seems at least as important.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 05:51:17 pm
Max isn't confirmed, but I'm hard pressed to see a reason why Max would bother ressing me (or Tric if I was mafia) as mafia. Sure he could be doing it for brownie points, but the disadvantages are horrible. Although this likely means mafia are quite powerful.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 06:08:07 pm
I am confirmed town now as well, yes Jack.Indeed. I would think the last thing that Mafia would want is a player that is confirmed town. There are a few fringe cases where they can put you back in the ground quickly AND hurt others, but frankly even one day of having a confirmed town is brutal. So we can infer that Max is town.
Max isn't confirmed, but I'm hard pressed to see a reason why Max would bother ressing me (or Tric if I was mafia) as mafia. Sure he could be doing it for brownie points, but the disadvantages are horrible. Although this likely means mafia are quite powerful.
So we have:
Toonyman confirmed town
Max almost certainly confirmed town
Vector very likely confirmed town
NJW seems quite likely town
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 06:08:20 pm
I explained in my notes, but I can paste them here:
1. Why did Webadict target Vector on N1? During D1 other players made large hints that they were a type of investigator (such as Jack), but Webadict chose to "copy" Vector who had only hinted at the fact they were a doctor. Vector was a prime kill target, not a prime target for Webadict's inspection copy ability. His night-action choice makes no sense, but NJW spotted it so he chose to confirm himself on that.
2. As mafia last round I was the first vote on every mislynch that happened. This is a huge scumtell. Webadict is the same this round.
3. Town!Webadict would never misread both me and Tric like this.
4. Webadict didn't hesitate at all trying to kill me through all of D2 while I was hesitating over the fact we could both be town and team-killing each other. Hence why I unvoted him multiple times and wasn't even voting Web for end of Day 2. This shows an agenda-based play by Web which is a big scumtell. Mafia want to follow a plan they have and will only deviate if it benefits them.
I'm willing to out Roden today as well, but my vote is not leaving Webadict until he's dead.
Post by: Vector on November 13, 2021, 06:10:54 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 06:11:37 pm
You and Max are a tier lower in the "probably town, but not as convincingly town as Vector/NJW".
And at the bottom are Web and Roden.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 06:15:56 pm
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 06:41:25 pm
Webadict is never town in this game, ever.You are STILL going for me. I wish you were Mafia, I truly do.
I explained in my notes, but I can paste them here:
1. Why did Webadict target Vector on N1? During D1 other players made large hints that they were a type of investigator (such as Jack), but Webadict chose to "copy" Vector who had only hinted at the fact they were a doctor. Vector was a prime kill target, not a prime target for Webadict's inspection copy ability. His night-action choice makes no sense, but NJW spotted it so he chose to confirm himself on that.
2. As mafia last round I was the first vote on every mislynch that happened. This is a huge scumtell. Webadict is the same this round.
3. Town!Webadict would never misread both me and Tric like this.
4. Webadict didn't hesitate at all trying to kill me through all of D2 while I was hesitating over the fact we could both be town and team-killing each other. Hence why I unvoted him multiple times and wasn't even voting Web for end of Day 2. This shows an agenda-based play by Web which is a big scumtell. Mafia want to follow a plan they have and will only deviate if it benefits them.
I'm willing to out Roden today as well, but my vote is not leaving Webadict until he's dead.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 06:54:37 pm
Maximum Spin has Ember Tracking, which does exactly what he says it does.Well, had.
I guess this confirms two things: that webadict does have the ability to get ability names - that is indeed the actual ability name - and that doing so does not necessarily prime people.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 07:00:59 pm
Prodigious study lets someone copy an investigative ability their target has.
I think we have to vote Web, since he now has the ability to set off those who are primed. Any flaws in this logic?
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 07:02:04 pm
I voted you for immensely fucking good reasons. You not being Mafia is really unfortunate, because you certainly played like you were. My reasons were sound, your play was shit, whatcha gonna do?
You fucking hounding me in spite of ALL OF THAT is why I voted you. And you're still doing it, which is great, it's gonna be a lovely Day, we get to play Fuck-Up Bros. together! Because I did say we both deserve to lose if you're Town, and frankly, it's fair. Just... peachy.
I'm gonna be voting Roden. I'm gonna do my best to deal with ToonyMan because he's in revenge mode. Oh what fun.
Yes, it is indeed a one-shot for me as well (as well as the downside you stated), but I'm not sure why I'd want to use it.Maximum Spin has Ember Tracking, which does exactly what he says it does.Well, had.
I guess this confirms two things: that webadict does have the ability to get ability names - that is indeed the actual ability name - and that doing so does not necessarily prime people.
Yes. I'm not scum, and I won't be using this ability.Prodigious study lets someone copy an investigative ability their target has.
I think we have to vote Web, since he now has the ability to set off those who are primed. Any flaws in this logic?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 07:04:31 pm
Not quite, Jack. Vector is basically confirmed town due to the unclaimed mafia prime unless exactly with NJW, but NJW is very very likely town as well since Web is mafia.
You and Max are a tier lower in the "probably town, but not as convincingly town as Vector/NJW".
And at the bottom are Web and Roden.
And since I'm below Vector in the Towniness assessment of our Confirmed Townie Toonyman, I think that means I have to claim before Vector and NJW.
I inspected NJW, and nobody targeted NJW.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 07:06:12 pm
I'm pretty sure you have to find Roden's partner to not get voted today.
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 07:19:12 pm
Webadict is never town in this game, ever.1. Correct. The only way you can justify me making a target that makes no sense on purpose in this case is if you pair NJW and I together. I made a decision that, irrefutably, doesn't make sense if you think about it from a perspective of trying to obtain abilities. Unfortunately, this argument fails because you do not believe that NJW2000 and I are a team. What this DOES make sense as is someone that had just voted out a Townie needed a way to confirm what his actions were during the Night. EuchreJack had claimed the ability to watch targets, stating that he would be doing so on Vector, and thus, I determined that the best way to confirm that I, in fact, am not fucking scum, was to forgo gathering abilities (or hope that Vector had an investigation ability.) I was saved by NJW2000 of all people.
I explained in my notes, but I can paste them here:
1. Why did Webadict target Vector on N1? During D1 other players made large hints that they were a type of investigator (such as Jack), but Webadict chose to "copy" Vector who had only hinted at the fact they were a doctor. Vector was a prime kill target, not a prime target for Webadict's inspection copy ability. His night-action choice makes no sense, but NJW spotted it so he chose to confirm himself on that.
2. As mafia last round I was the first vote on every mislynch that happened. This is a huge scumtell. Webadict is the same this round.
3. Town!Webadict would never misread both me and Tric like this.
4. Webadict didn't hesitate at all trying to kill me through all of D2 while I was hesitating over the fact we could both be town and team-killing each other. Hence why I unvoted him multiple times and wasn't even voting Web for end of Day 2. This shows an agenda-based play by Web which is a big scumtell. Mafia want to follow a plan they have and will only deviate if it benefits them.
I'm willing to out Roden today as well, but my vote is not leaving Webadict until he's dead.
My ability is pro-Town, and there's no argument you can make to counter that. You have to take NJW2000's word for it, because it's really fucking obvious.
2. The only argument I have for this is that I'm not you? I can't argue against a scumtell for you. But, yeah, I'm gonna vote first. By that argument, anywhere I vote is scummy, because I'm either starting the bandwagon or hopping onto it. Am I pressing on the bear trap yet???
3. Well, that's patently false. I would say Town!ToonyMan wouldn't do stupid shit and go after someone who's ability and target are confirmed and whose ability is pro-Town as shit, but look at what we got here! Damn, this mirror shining in my eyes is hilarious in hindsight. This is how you fucking defend yourself, nerd.
4. Yep. Because, again, your actions were unconfirmed, and your only idea of who was scum was me, the guy who, AGAIN, HAS AN INVESTIGATION COPYING ABILITY, WHICH IS A PRO-TOWN ABILITY??? This is why I thought you were scum, because I frankly expected better from you as Town. You waffling all over the place made you look more suspicious. Duh. It's, like, not rocket science.
Post by: Vector on November 13, 2021, 07:39:50 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 07:41:38 pm
Yes. I'm not scum, and I won't be using this ability.Well, maybe you should. If you're town, and Toonyman and I are both town - you must believe this at this point, I hope - then for you the plausible suspects are Vector, Roden, NJW2k, and EuchreJack, right? So, wouldn't you be curious to verify the claims of half of that group by seeing whether Vector is in fact really primed?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 07:57:04 pm
I None'd, and I have been poisoned. I will die post-elimination at EoD.
Hm, why would mafia hit Vector twice?
@Toonyman, since you are confirmed town, and want Web dead, maybe you can explain this to me. How do we know that the scum team is not NJW2000 and Vector, with Vector having primed 2 people, and NJW2000 watching for the last two nights, with the end game being after elimination N3 when one of them primes a 3rd target and the other pushes the detonator for the win?
@Maximum Spin: I think you need to tell us how poison might exist.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 08:02:45 pm
@Maximum Spin: I think you need to tell us how poison might exist.I'm not sure I understand the question.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:04:01 pm
I None'd, and I have been poisoned. I will die post-elimination at EoD.I roleblocked Roden last night and Max was res'ing me.
So you can probably cross out those two as whoever poisoned you last night. Removing NJW as well leaves Jack and Web.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:05:17 pm
@Toonyman, since you are confirmed town, and want Web dead, maybe you can explain this to me. How do we know that the scum team is not NJW2000 and Vector, with Vector having primed 2 people, and NJW2000 watching for the last two nights, with the end game being after elimination N3 when one of them primes a 3rd target and the other pushes the detonator for the win?Because Jack/Web is more likely than NJW/Vector.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:12:40 pm
What happened to Roden/Web? You can't be that pissed that I suggested Web might not be scum. I mean, I think NJW/Vector is less likely than Roden/Web, hence why I asked you.@Toonyman, since you are confirmed town, and want Web dead, maybe you can explain this to me. How do we know that the scum team is not NJW2000 and Vector, with Vector having primed 2 people, and NJW2000 watching for the last two nights, with the end game being after elimination N3 when one of them primes a 3rd target and the other pushes the detonator for the win?Because Jack/Web is more likely than NJW/Vector.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:15:58 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:21:18 pm
Toonyman is confirmed town, and believes the scum team to be Web/Jack
Vector has been town read for a long time
NJW is trusted due to their watcher role
Max is confirmed town, or too overly complicated mafia
Roden was suspected, but now appears mechanically cleared, since it has to be either Web/Jack or NJW/Vector. And I've been suspecting Roden all game...
Web is still posting scummy shit that is gonna get them voted
I, EuchreJack, know that I'm town, but there is absolutely no reason for you to believe me.
Hm, that would make NJW the front runner for our little tournament. Good game, NJW. Go ahead, post your watcher results and falsely condemn me.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:25:12 pm
"Uh, I watched Maximum Spin. I saw an Inspect, a Prodigious study, and a Primer."
It's a lie, but you got no reason to believe me.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:27:20 pm
At some point, you indicated that you could confirm that poison existed in this setup. Or maybe I misread that, I'll try and hunt down the specific post.@Maximum Spin: I think you need to tell us how poison might exist.I'm not sure I understand the question.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:27:52 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 08:30:22 pm
Oh, yes.At some point, you indicated that you could confirm that poison existed in this setup. Or maybe I misread that, I'll try and hunt down the specific post.@Maximum Spin: I think you need to tell us how poison might exist.I'm not sure I understand the question.
I happen to also have an ability that prevents my target from becoming poisoned. (I mentioned having a protect at one point, when I was hoping to get protected and claim my rez, this is what I meant.)
Man, this was a lot for Fallacy to expect me to get you to take on faith, huh. But it's worked out so far, I guess.
Obviously this implies the existence of poison.
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 08:31:49 pm
I'm gonna be so happy when you see how fucking wrong you are, it's gonna be hilarious.@Toonyman, since you are confirmed town, and want Web dead, maybe you can explain this to me. How do we know that the scum team is not NJW2000 and Vector, with Vector having primed 2 people, and NJW2000 watching for the last two nights, with the end game being after elimination N3 when one of them primes a 3rd target and the other pushes the detonator for the win?Because Jack/Web is more likely than NJW/Vector.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:34:44 pm
I don't understand the sudden shift onto NJW and Vector. Why do you think Vector and NJW have been lying now?
Jack, I only think you're mafia if it's exactly with Webadict. Web is always the first pick here though.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:35:55 pm
Okay, what's going on here then? Don't be afraid to be wrong three times in a row, I'll listen.I'm gonna be so happy when you see how fucking wrong you are, it's gonna be hilarious.@Toonyman, since you are confirmed town, and want Web dead, maybe you can explain this to me. How do we know that the scum team is not NJW2000 and Vector, with Vector having primed 2 people, and NJW2000 watching for the last two nights, with the end game being after elimination N3 when one of them primes a 3rd target and the other pushes the detonator for the win?Because Jack/Web is more likely than NJW/Vector.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 08:36:46 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:38:04 pm
One last: My role definitely makes it plausible to me that mafia do actually have dual poison/priming. Certainly I can confirm they both exist in the game.The post from Max about confirming poison. Now to read the posts since my last post.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:43:59 pm
If the mafia group is NJW/Vector, and we assume that they have been priming people secretly, we do need to ask ourselves which of them can pull the ignite trigger. I think it's more likely to be Vector, because in that case the poison claim would essentially be a bid to survive today on the grounds that a lynch would become irrelevant.
Presumably, the mafia team would only be able to prime one person per night, to correspond to the normal one kill a night of a normal game. We have no reason to believe that only one person on the mafia team could pull the ignite. However, this means an ignite on N3 would take out 3 townies, so assuming we lynch one of them, town should still outnumber them. Also, I'm assuming the turn resolution would go prime THEN ignite, since the mafia kill is usually last in turn resolution.
But only the mafia team and FOU would know that for sure.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:47:07 pm
@Jack:
I don't understand the sudden shift onto NJW and Vector. Why do you think Vector and NJW have been lying now?
Jack, I only think you're mafia if it's exactly with Webadict. Web is always the first pick here though.
@Toonyman: Since I know you've read my posts, you can see that I vaguely suspected it before, but I guess I didn't buy it because NJW seemed to confirm my role.
I also overlooked that Max sorta counterclaimed Vector, since Max only sorta claimed until now.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:47:08 pm
In other words, Web has to argue NJW/Vector. He's always mafia otherwise so...
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 08:49:39 pm
I also overlooked that Max sorta counterclaimed Vector, since Max only sorta claimed until now.It's entirely possible that we both have that power.
The way I see it, if Webadict is town (false) the only possibility is NJW/Vector omegabraining as mafia. This is extremely unlikely.Why is that unlikely, though? It's not THAT advanced a tactic, and they're both good players.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:50:02 pm
Why not consider Webadict is mafia with Roden or Max? Even though both Roden and Max couldn't have poisoned Vector they could still be mafia with Web if Web is the poisoner.
I am open to Vector/NJW theories though, as we don't want to leave any stone unturned today.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:52:21 pm
@Jack:Web just told you the name of Maximum Spin's power, which means Web could not have poisoned Vector unless Web was on a scum team with Maximum Spin.
Why not consider Webadict is mafia with Roden or Max? Even though both Roden and Max couldn't have poisoned Vector they could still be mafia with Web if Web is the poisoner.
I am open to Vector/NJW theories though, as we don't want to leave any stone unturned today.
And frankly, if Maximum Spin had to resurrect someone as mafia, why again is Tric dead and you alive?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:52:32 pm
Why is that unlikely, though? It's not THAT advanced a tactic, and they're both good players.It means mafia chose not to kill or do anything harmful on N1.
This is possible since I was restricted last round, but FoU said they'd make mafia stronger. I was just res'd so mafia have to be at least kind of powerful. Web and NJW are not of the same alignment at least this much I feel confident.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:54:10 pm
...Why do you think Web is town Jack?@Jack:Web just told you the name of Maximum Spin's power, which means Web could not have poisoned Vector unless Web was on a scum team with Maximum Spin.
Why not consider Webadict is mafia with Roden or Max? Even though both Roden and Max couldn't have poisoned Vector they could still be mafia with Web if Web is the poisoner.
I am open to Vector/NJW theories though, as we don't want to leave any stone unturned today.
And frankly, if Maximum Spin had to resurrect someone as mafia, why again is Tric dead and you alive?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:55:29 pm
Why is that unlikely, though? It's not THAT advanced a tactic, and they're both good players.It means mafia chose not to kill or do anything harmful on N1.
This is possible since I was restricted last round, but FoU said they'd make mafia stronger. I was just res'd so mafia have to be at least kind of powerful. Web and NJW are not of the same alignment at least this much I feel confident.
I think you missed something. NJW voyeured* Vector. Vector wasn't tracked, and could have primed someone N1. Which is pretty damn harmful.
*I said watch before, sorry for that. Best replay NJW's message for best clarity.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:57:03 pm
Because I'm town, and I can't see any mechanical way that Web would be scum if I'm not scum. Since I know I'm town, I'm forced to clear Web, even though they're acting really scummy....Why do you think Web is town Jack?@Jack:Web just told you the name of Maximum Spin's power, which means Web could not have poisoned Vector unless Web was on a scum team with Maximum Spin.
Why not consider Webadict is mafia with Roden or Max? Even though both Roden and Max couldn't have poisoned Vector they could still be mafia with Web if Web is the poisoner.
I am open to Vector/NJW theories though, as we don't want to leave any stone unturned today.
And frankly, if Maximum Spin had to resurrect someone as mafia, why again is Tric dead and you alive?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 08:59:24 pm
I also overlooked that Max sorta counterclaimed Vector, since Max only sorta claimed until now.It's entirely possible that we both have that power.
Not in a FOU game. In this tournament, you could have similar powers, but not the same powers. FOU is too crazy to give out two of the exact same roles.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 08:59:35 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 09:01:05 pm
To clarify, your powers could overlap, I think we've seen that. But the roles would have to differ. Sorta like how a Jailer protects and roleblocks could possibly appear in a game with a bodyguard who protects and dies.I also overlooked that Max sorta counterclaimed Vector, since Max only sorta claimed until now.It's entirely possible that we both have that power.
Not in a FOU game. In this tournament, you could have similar powers, but not the same powers. FOU is too crazy to give out two of the exact same roles.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 09:02:39 pm
Well, it wouldn't be the same role, though, as I'm a JOAT with other stuff, it would just be one same ability. And Vector's power probably doesn't set people on fire.I also overlooked that Max sorta counterclaimed Vector, since Max only sorta claimed until now.It's entirely possible that we both have that power.
Not in a FOU game. In this tournament, you could have similar powers, but not the same powers. FOU is too crazy to give out two of the exact same roles.
Anyway, I do actually see a webadict/NJW team as theoretically possible, although it's hard to see how a webadict/Vector team would work. And just because Roden didn't get to do anything TONIGHT doesn't mean he's not evil.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 09:03:31 pm
@Jack:I've realized this likely isn't possible since Web knew Max's role, so I see what you mean there.
Why not consider Webadict is mafia with Roden or Max? Even though both Roden and Max couldn't have poisoned Vector they could still be mafia with Web if Web is the poisoner.
Jack, you've realized the only person that could be the Vector poisoner is you yourself, or Vector has to be lying. I get that now.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 09:04:23 pm
What did you do last night Jack?I inspected NJW2000. I did this to check Web, at least a little bit.
My results were that NJW2000 was not targeted. I figured town!Web couldn't resist knowing what was in the Maximum Spin grab bag, whereas mafia!Web would probably claim to have copied NJW2000's voyeur power as it is the more reliable investigative role.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 09:06:51 pm
@Jack:I've realized this likely isn't possible since Web knew Max's role, so I see what you mean there.
Why not consider Webadict is mafia with Roden or Max? Even though both Roden and Max couldn't have poisoned Vector they could still be mafia with Web if Web is the poisoner.
Jack, you've realized the only person that could be the Vector poisoner is you yourself, or Vector has to be lying. I get that now.
Yes, and now I realize that I can't let Web get lynched, as a mislynch is game over.
Damn, does everything you do set people on fire? Please tell me your ability that revived Toonyman wasn't called "The Spark of Life"...Well, it wouldn't be the same role, though, as I'm a JOAT with other stuff, it would just be one same ability. And Vector's power probably doesn't set people on fire.I also overlooked that Max sorta counterclaimed Vector, since Max only sorta claimed until now.It's entirely possible that we both have that power.
Not in a FOU game. In this tournament, you could have similar powers, but not the same powers. FOU is too crazy to give out two of the exact same roles.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 09:09:28 pm
Please tell me your ability that revived Toonyman wasn't called "The Spark of Life"...It was not.
It was "Fire of Life".
Sorry.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 09:10:10 pm
Inteeeeresting, you watched the person that could not have been targeted anymore from what people have claimed. Gotta make sure NJW can't contradict you when he comes in right?What did you do last night Jack?I inspected NJW2000. I did this to check Web, at least a little bit.
My results were that NJW2000 was not targeted. I figured town!Web couldn't resist knowing what was in the Maximum Spin grab bag, whereas mafia!Web would probably claim to have copied NJW2000's voyeur power as it is the more reliable investigative role.
Are you still voting Roden?
Damn, does everything you do set people on fire? Please tell me your ability that revived Toonyman wasn't called "The Spark of Life"...I was struck by lightning when I was revived, so that's pretty fitting.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 13, 2021, 09:10:45 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 09:12:18 pm
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 09:12:39 pm
Okay. I'm willing to help figure this out.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 09:19:01 pm
Crazy theory: I thought I was at high risk of getting mislynched on D3.
You see, I got mislynched last round at the end of the first day. THAT is why everyone didn't want to vote me Day 1 this time, as who wants to mislynch the same poor townie two rounds in a row? But that subconscious towniness goes away each day, and you say to yourself "maybe I was wrong, he was town last time, so maybe he rolled scum this time?" - End of theory
Frankly, I should have said something D2. It would have saved some aggravation, but I was busy pursuing a case, and like I just said, this sounds scummy.
The reason to tell you this is so that you can say "EJ is crazy. None of that makes sense. I'm smarter than that!"
...and then, hopefully, you'll think about it, and be less prone to the above error. It's like an inoculation against poor thinking*!
*More crazy theories
Damn, I didn't realize we'd be at LYLO. I thought it would be OK to get mislynched, or at least I could coast. Now, I'm stuck defending the undefendable Webadict.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 09:21:25 pm
Are you still voting Roden?
Nope, I think Roden is clean mechanically. In order for Vector to be mafia, NJW has to be mafia to make the claim of Vector being primed.
Oh, I guess mafia could have primed one of their own. I hope they did, then we're not stuck eliminating correctly or losing.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 09:24:37 pm
Because we gotta hit scum. I'm happy to answer any questions, but I think everyone else needs time to discuss, so I'll shut up and let others discuss for a bit.
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 09:46:12 pm
VectorOkay, I'm lost on why Vector?
Because we gotta hit scum. I'm happy to answer any questions, but I think everyone else needs time to discuss, so I'll shut up and let others discuss for a bit.
Post by: Vector on November 13, 2021, 09:54:09 pm
Drat, so I am right. Vector has been lying all along.
I ... no? I'm town.
Jack, you've realized the only person that could be the Vector poisoner is you yourself, or Vector has to be lying. I get that now.
@WEB: This is why. Anyway, as I'm not lying I guess it's EuchreJack 9_9
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 10:11:37 pm
Drat, so I am right. Vector has been lying all along.
I ... no? I'm town.Jack, you've realized the only person that could be the Vector poisoner is you yourself, or Vector has to be lying. I get that now.
@WEB: This is why. Anyway, as I'm not lying I guess it's EuchreJack 9_9
I appreciate the confirmation, Vector. I sometimes worry that I've missed something, but now I at least know you are scum.
I also must assume that you are in a position to win as mafia. Your failure to die EOD, after we vote, will prove you are mafia, and you need 2 mafia to win with 7 total players and 3 nights to prime.
Hm, but would town!Vector be going after me, with their theory of the game? Under their theory, they've been BOTH primed AND poisoned. I'm a weak player, so wouldn't they be going after the person they feel is my scumbuddy? Under their theory, there is time to eliminate the more competent player on the scum team.
Speaking of which, who do you feel is my scumbuddy Vector? Town!Vector would tell us.
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 10:12:14 pm
I actually don't know Max's role. Just that action. I also have a copy of it.@Jack:I've realized this likely isn't possible since Web knew Max's role, so I see what you mean there.
Why not consider Webadict is mafia with Roden or Max? Even though both Roden and Max couldn't have poisoned Vector they could still be mafia with Web if Web is the poisoner.
Jack, you've realized the only person that could be the Vector poisoner is you yourself, or Vector has to be lying. I get that now.
Not to throw wood onto my own fire, but there is a possible setup where NJW2000 covers for me and I rolecop Max on N1 and see his role enough to know priming exists. But, then someone has to be able to Prime. It would have to be me in that situation, because NJW still knows Jack's action and target (either that or NJW has a different ability in this hypothetical.)
If you believe that, though, then I either couldn't poison, or something else happened, because NJW2000 was poison protected. A 1-shot Poison Doctor implies that someone was definitely poisonable N1, no? But, I would have had no way of knowing Vector was 1-shot, and I also would've been making targets on me and my partner.
If we accept Vector is Town, then we accept that Poison is a potential kill method.
Priming is a scum kill method regardless, as three people confirm it exists. (me, NJW, and Max) In fact, it might be a completely passive ability, unless Roden did it, Jack or I has Multitask, or NJW2000 is lying.
I'm not willing to vote Euchre or you until I'm done musing.Drat, so I am right. Vector has been lying all along.
I ... no? I'm town.Jack, you've realized the only person that could be the Vector poisoner is you yourself, or Vector has to be lying. I get that now.
@WEB: This is why. Anyway, as I'm not lying I guess it's EuchreJack 9_9
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 10:14:23 pm
Also, if you try to convince me to vote with you, you are mistaken. I would vote you over Jack.Drat, so I am right. Vector has been lying all along.
I ... no? I'm town.Jack, you've realized the only person that could be the Vector poisoner is you yourself, or Vector has to be lying. I get that now.
@WEB: This is why. Anyway, as I'm not lying I guess it's EuchreJack 9_9
Post by: Vector on November 13, 2021, 10:18:59 pm
I did lie about my role. I'm a 2-shot poison doctor.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 10:21:06 pm
I have night action news but will wait for Wubz to post.
Maximum Spin has Ember Tracking, which does exactly what he says it does.Webadict is never town in this game, ever.You are STILL going for me. I wish you were Mafia, I truly do.
I explained in my notes, but I can paste them here:
1. Why did Webadict target Vector on N1? During D1 other players made large hints that they were a type of investigator (such as Jack), but Webadict chose to "copy" Vector who had only hinted at the fact they were a doctor. Vector was a prime kill target, not a prime target for Webadict's inspection copy ability. His night-action choice makes no sense, but NJW spotted it so he chose to confirm himself on that.
2. As mafia last round I was the first vote on every mislynch that happened. This is a huge scumtell. Webadict is the same this round.
3. Town!Webadict would never misread both me and Tric like this.
4. Webadict didn't hesitate at all trying to kill me through all of D2 while I was hesitating over the fact we could both be town and team-killing each other. Hence why I unvoted him multiple times and wasn't even voting Web for end of Day 2. This shows an agenda-based play by Web which is a big scumtell. Mafia want to follow a plan they have and will only deviate if it benefits them.
I'm willing to out Roden today as well, but my vote is not leaving Webadict until he's dead.
Not quite, Jack. Vector is basically confirmed town due to the unclaimed mafia prime unless exactly with NJW, but NJW is very very likely town as well since Web is mafia.
You and Max are a tier lower in the "probably town, but not as convincingly town as Vector/NJW".
And at the bottom are Web and Roden.
And since I'm below Vector in the Towniness assessment of our Confirmed Townie Toonyman, I think that means I have to claim before Vector and NJW.
I inspected NJW, and nobody targeted NJW.
I None'd, and I have been poisoned. I will die post-elimination at EoD.
I haven't fully deciphered this sequence of events, but I think its important.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2021, 10:22:07 pm
OK. I am going to die at EOD and I frankly don't give a shit if people vote me out or not, because I'm already dead. In fact, voting for me is effectively voting for No Launch.
I did lie about my role. I'm a 2-shot poison doctor.
If you believe me to be scum, and believe yourself to be dying at end of day, whom other than myself should town be suspecting?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 10:45:57 pm
If we accept Vector is Town, then we accept that Poison is a potential kill method.Unfortunately, you accept that either poison is a potential kill method or there are totally useless poison-related abilities as a prank regardless, because I also have one.
Post by: webadict on November 13, 2021, 11:35:31 pm
OK. I am going to die at EOD and I frankly don't give a shit if people vote me out or not, because I'm already dead. In fact, voting for me is effectively voting for No Launch.Well, this is believable, at least, since you stated Noning earlier.
I did lie about my role. I'm a 2-shot poison doctor.
Hm... Okay. Then I believe that. And if I believe that, then I also believe Vector is Town. But, the thing is, I also believe EuchreJack is Town. And ToonyMan is Town. And if all those are Town, how do I justify Roden and NJW2000 as scum?If we accept Vector is Town, then we accept that Poison is a potential kill method.Unfortunately, you accept that either poison is a potential kill method or there are totally useless poison-related abilities as a prank regardless, because I also have one.
N1
NJW2000 (Voyeur) - Voyeurs Vector, sees Prodigious Study, Investigate, Prime
Vector (Poison Doctor) - Protects NJW2000
webadict (Investigative Student) - Prodigious Study Vector, gains nothing
Maximum Spin (? JOAT) - Ember Tracks EuchreJack, targeted Vector
EuchreJack (Investigator) - Investigates Vector (sees was targeted)
ToonyMan (Vengeful Roleblocker) - None
Roden (Delayer) - Delays ToonyMan
Confirmed Facts:
NJW2000 semi-confirms the actions of webadict and EuchreJack.
webadict and EuchreJack mostly confirm the action of NJW2000.
Maximum Spin confirms the target of EuchreJack.
If the Prime happened, it was done by scum.
Speculations
If EuchreJack is scum, then NJW2000 is scum OR you believe EuchreJack was given a pro-Town and very weak ability as scum.
If I'm scum, then NJW2000 is scum OR you believe I was given a pro-Town and semi-weak ability as scum.
If Vector is scum, then NJW2000 is scum OR you believe scum primed their partner.
If NJW2000 is scum, then there are no limitations on their partner.
If Roden is scum, then there are no limitations on their partner.
N2
ToonyMan Haunts Roden
Maximum Spin Revives ToonyMan
webadict Prodigious Studies Maximum Spin, gains Ember Track.
EuchreJack Investigates NJW2000, sees no one
Vector Nones (Is poisoned)
Roden (assumedly) blocked
NJW2000 ?
... Hm. I think I'm going to do something stupid.
I'm gonna assume Vector AND EuchreJack are both Town. It makes sense for them to both be Town.
I'll slightly lower NJW2000's potential Towniness, but...
I'm gonna do something even stupider.
I'm gonna take the risk and assume Roden is solo scum.
And I'm going to assume that... we, at best, have two solo scum (Either 2 unteamed Mafia, or Mafia and Mafia-Ally.) But, it also possible we have one really powerful scum.
Hmm...
Very confusing.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 13, 2021, 11:41:09 pm
Well it's a little more than that, but nothing helpful.)
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 12:09:48 am
Removing multi-tasking, Max and Roden are the only two people who could have primed Vector. Max claimed their track on Jack too late so that could be faked. Roden claims a delay on me which could also be faked since I claimed doing no-action before Roden's claim. So for both of these cases their claim isn't confirmable sadly.
In the case of Web/Max, Web knowing Max's role ability for Web/Max isn't surprising there. Max would be the one that primed Vector in this scenario, although I admit it's odd that Web would also target Vector alongside Max.
And for the case of Web/Roden that means Roden primed Vector while Web again also targeted Vector. They've explained why they targeted Vector, but I still disagree with them on that.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 12:14:51 am
I'm gonna take the risk and assume Roden is solo scum.How? I blocked Roden last night and Vector claims to be poisoned. You also seemed ASSURED of poison's existence on D2 when there was no evidence of it. If Vector's claim is the truth then it's like you knew, impressive!
And I'm going to assume that... we, at best, have two solo scum (Either 2 unteamed Mafia, or Mafia and Mafia-Ally.) But, it also possible we have one really powerful scum.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 12:26:56 am
I really don't see this setup as one mafia or one mafia plus one ally. I really think it's two mafia. Mafia haven't even killed a player yet, although Vector should drop dead at the end of day regardless. I still think Vector and Max are town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 12:33:28 am
How? I blocked Roden last night and Vector claims to be poisoned. You also seemed ASSURED of poison's existence on D2 when there was no evidence of it. If Vector's claim is the truth then it's like you knew, impressive!Well, both Vector and I agreed poison existed D1. That isn't a reason to be "ASSURED", but it's definitely "evidence".
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 12:39:04 am
Okay, fine, multitasking is possible if and only if it's web (or me, but you cannot reasonably think I would have rezzed you as mafia, it just wouldn't be the right choice). I mean, Jack could also be multitasking, but since he is unconfirmed anyway and doesn't NEED to be, I'm not counting that.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 12:43:57 am
Post by: Vector on November 14, 2021, 01:15:54 am
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 01:26:46 am
Toony. You are retroactively trying to find evidence when other, more simple (and incredibly obvious), explanations work. Like this: I was convinced of poison's existence because I believed that Vector was Town. I thought Vector was Town because NJW2000 confirmed my action and target (thus making NJW2000 Town) and Vector was targeted by Prime. Why would Vector lie about that if I think Vector is Town? I will cherish this moment between us. This is the moment where you have a choice: You can choose to waste your Day 3 like you wasted your Day 2 trying to frame me for being scum, OR you can look at what I presented: Factual arguments, logical deductions, processes of eliminations; and realize that removing you was the correct option, especially since you didn't really do anything to help narrow it down.I'm gonna take the risk and assume Roden is solo scum.How? I blocked Roden last night and Vector claims to be poisoned. You also seemed ASSURED of poison's existence on D2 when there was no evidence of it. If Vector's claim is the truth then it's like you knew, impressive!
And I'm going to assume that... we, at best, have two solo scum (Either 2 unteamed Mafia, or Mafia and Mafia-Ally.) But, it also possible we have one really powerful scum.
Now, to what you said that actually matters.
Three possibilities that rely on knowing how the scum work:
1.) These abilities are a mix of Day and Night abilities. There's no reason to believe that the Poison is the result of an action that was done during the Night. It could just as well have occurred during the Day. The one thing we can confirm if NJW2000 is Town is that the Prime happened at Night, but perhaps the Poison is a Day action?
2.) These abilities are automatic. Perhaps the Poison was an automatic ability that cannot be roleblocked. If it's automatic, there might be limitations to its usage.
3.) Some abilities are immune to roleblocks. This seems unlikely, as it would completely negate the ability, but I'm mentioning it for posterity. If NJW2000 is not scum, then it's possible they were targeted by Poison last Night, and Vector was targeted by Prime as well. This could infer that the Poison ability is immune to roleblocks, but the Prime is not. Would you necessarily put it past FoU to put in a essentially useless power like that?
And this is all in addition to someone else mucking up the whole game.
Basically, taking the relative power curve based on role claim:
TricMagic is a Fruit Vendor (or whatever he is). This is a low power role.
EuchreJack is an Investigator. This is a low power role.
I am an Investigative Student. This is a low power role.
You are a Vengeful Roleblocker. This is a low power role.
Vector is a 2-Shot Poison Doctor. This is a medium-low power role.
Roden is a Delayer. This is a medium power role.
NJW2000 is a Voyeur. This is a high power role.
Maximum Spin is a Arsonist Jack of All Trades. This is a very high power role.
I'm not making any heads or tails of this.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 01:27:37 am
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 01:49:06 am
Could also be teamed without a chat. Webadict and I were talking about that possibility after last round.I'm refering to this in my previous post.
@Webadict:
Screw you. I tried to consider everything on D2. You railroaded me like a fucking moron even when I still considered other players to vote like Max or Roden. My thoughts and opinions showed development and growth. You ranted about how I was scum and we need to watch out for nonexistent third parties. I didn't even want to play anymore at the end of D2 because of how much you unjustifiably shitted on me. And then Max comes in right at the end of day like an angel, taking the mafia by surprise with "hey I'm going to res town". Even if mafia tried to kill Max that would eliminate one of the suspicious players, not that mafia appear to be able to actively kill at night, so they were fucked either way. I'm so utterly fucking convinced you wouldn't be this fucking bad. And calling me bad means fucking shit to me after the bullshit I had to read from you on D2.
Anyway, your poison reasoning is shit because it's clearly something mafia are doing and we could spin in circles forever not doing anything. Either Vector is lying or Jack is lying. Boom. If Vector is lying then they're with NJW. If Jack is lying they're with Web. Just like I was fucking saying that it comes down to one of NJW/Web being mafia when Tric flipped town. And guess what? Tric suspected Web! Like I said on D2 this mechanical stuff is nice when town are making claims, but we can't get caught in the bullshit of how the fuck mafia work since we can't say for sure until the game is over. Look at Round 2 for a good example of this.
I think what I'm going to do tomorrow is fit together everyone's claims on N1 and N2 and then assume two people are mafia for each scenario and see how that looks. The objective is to see which players fit the best as liars, since town players would be telling the truth with their results. Roden and NJW haven't claimed for today, but they should be around by the time I do this tomorrow. I was also consider player's behavior and voting patterns.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 01:53:25 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 01:57:04 am
Okay sure, but if the mafia team can't communicate the Poisoner Mafia still shouldn't target Vector N2 who everyone learned was Primed on D2. Seems like a straight up bad play to overlap like that...except if the Poisoner Mafia was not sure of a safe target besides Vector who they knew could not be the other mafia. Still seems kind of fishy though.Poisoner could plausibly believe EuchreJack's case that the primer has no ignite and was relying on surprise mines, making the known prime on Vector useless. Alternatively, that case could be true and the poisoner knows it.
I'm not saying I think that's very likely or anything.
Speaking of which, should I just opt not to use my poison doctor power tonight?
Webadict: I can buy a day poisoner, but it seems unlikely to me that Fallacy would have made them indistinguishable, so Vector should probably confirm whether the poisoning was reported at eod (or sooner) or eon.
While I could buy a potential autopoison, it doesn't appear to operate on any of the obvious triggers unless it is Jack or NJW (or you if you lied about targeting me in some to me seemingly unlikely way) and poisons the target (or hypothetically the target's target if the poisoner targeted the other), in which case it is effectively the same calculus as a poison action. Nobody else could have targeted Vector, so it couldn't be target or target's target, and Vector targeted nobody, so it couldn't be a backlash. I guess it could be wholly or partly random or otherwise excessively weird, but I'm still looking for horses and not zebras, even if it IS a Fallacy game. Yes, if it bypasses roleblocks, Roden could have done it, I guess, but we don't need to posit automatic for that. If anything, if it's targettable, it being automatic feels weirder: "Your target will be poisoned even if you do not actually reach your target"? An automatic that can't be roleblocked seems most likely to trigger as a backlash or uncontrollable random thing. I'm not ruling that out, sure, but in the first case Vector is lying about targeting nobody, and in the second case it's completely useless information and also awful.
A roleblock-breakthrough ability on Roden of any kind, active or passive, just sounds like a bad setup. But look, how about this. If it's solo Roden, alternatingly priming and poisoning or something, we can lynch somebody else today and Roden tomorrow.
By the way, Toonyman, without giving anything away, how much mechanical information did you get about the correlates of your resurrection? It wasn't just a resurrection.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 02:05:19 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 02:25:22 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 04:27:50 am
Roden, if you're town, then, if Vector dies at day end, I want you to delay Euchrejack. If Vector does not die, delay Vector or NJW, taster's choice.
We're going to lynch webadict. If web flips town, and Vector dies, we can believe weird zebra theories about solo Roden. Otherwise, we proceed logically.
I am open to argument for swapping the roles of Euchrejack and webadict in this process, but I'm pretty sure either way it's the best shot. I actually have a theory that Euchrejack might be the most dangerous game, but it doesn't obviously seem to matter, and Jack/anyone but web seems less likely to me than web/anyone but Jack.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 05:08:08 am
The worst case scenario with Vector/NJW as the scum team is game over if one of them is not lynched. Is that the case if I or Web are scum and they are lynched?
The "safe" option is to lynch Vector or NJW. Do the math. Count the Primes.
Vector says I poisoned them, Web KNEW the correct name of Max's Night 1 power and thus must have been truthful about visiting Max unless Max is scum, and NJW said that both me AND Web visited Vector on Night 1. We could NOT have primed anyone other than Vector, unless you believe in multi-targeting.
The poisoner knows poison exists. Recall last game where the claimed Cop Gunsmith was actually mafia? FOU doesn't repeat roles in the way that both you and Vector are claiming. They're too similar.How? I blocked Roden last night and Vector claims to be poisoned. You also seemed ASSURED of poison's existence on D2 when there was no evidence of it. If Vector's claim is the truth then it's like you knew, impressive!Well, both Vector and I agreed poison existed D1. That isn't a reason to be "ASSURED", but it's definitely "evidence".
OK. I am going to die at EOD and I frankly don't give a shit if people vote me out or not, because I'm already dead. In fact, voting for me is effectively voting for No Launch.
I did lie about my role. I'm a 2-shot poison doctor.
Although I already know Vector is scum, unless someone can explain to me mechanically how mafia could be pitting us against each other like this, I think everyone else should think about this claim.
Vector says they are 2-shot poison doctor.
Vector claimed to protect NJW2000 from poison N1.
Vector claims to have not used their poison doctor N2.
Oh, and we're supposed to believe that Vector was poisoned and is content with that. Rather than being royally pissed.
@Vector: If I am scum, who is my scum buddy? You need to answer this. According to you, you won't be around to help EOD, so you should be helping now.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 05:14:19 am
@Web: Stop insulting Toonyman. It keeps his brain from working good. Be really nice and considerate to poor Toonyman. Hell, butter his ego a bit.
We need his brain to be working on the problem rather than on getting you lynched because you are playing Mr. Ass.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 05:25:46 am
ToonyMan (0):
Roden (0):
EuchreJack (1): Vector
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (1): EuchreJack
webadict (2): Toonyman, Maximum Spin
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (3): Roden, NJW2000, webadict
4 to hammer.
Day 3 has begun, and will end 4 PM Monday, Central/Forum time, or on a hammer.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 05:29:21 am
But having been partners with Vector in the past, I can tell you that Vector can disappear for long periods of time. So its not proof by any means.
@Maximum Spin: Would you mind unvoting Web for now?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 05:30:09 am
Web KNEW the correct name of Max's Night 1 power and thus must have been truthful about visiting Max unless Max is scum,So? Maybe you knew it and told him.
I mean, Web's getting into the wild theories, here's a perfectly conceivable one: Both members of a Web and Jack team could have Prodigious Study. Oh, but Fallacy never does such a thing, they claim. It's not like he's capable of making a choice to do something unusual.
The worst case scenario with Vector/NJW as the scum team is game over if one of them is not lynched. Is that the case if I or Web are scum and they are lynched?I don't understand why you think this is necessarily the case, but if we follow my plan, even if that is the case, we have a 50% chance of stopping it, and if one has to prime and the other ignite, as seems likely, we have a 50% chance of preventing the ignition completely and a 50% chance of preventing a prime.
I'll unvote for now, though, fine.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 05:44:51 am
The worst case scenario with Vector/NJW as the scum team is game over if one of them is not lynched. Is that the case if I or Web are scum and they are lynched?I don't understand why you think this is necessarily the case, but if we follow my plan, even if that is the case, we have a 50% chance of stopping it, and if one has to prime and the other ignite, as seems likely, we have a 50% chance of preventing the ignition completely and a 50% chance of preventing a prime.
What about N4? Under your plan, you can only lynch one mafia a day, and you mislynch (from my point of view) someone today.
It isn't that Fallacy does things that are unusual (although Fallacy certainly DOES), but rather that Fallacy does things that are unique. Your theory makes more sense if you assign me something else.Web KNEW the correct name of Max's Night 1 power and thus must have been truthful about visiting Max unless Max is scum,So? Maybe you knew it and told him.
I mean, Web's getting into the wild theories, here's a perfectly conceivable one: Both members of a Web and Jack team could have Prodigious Study. Oh, but Fallacy never does such a thing, they claim. It's not like he's capable of making a choice to do something unusual.
Speaking of wild & crazy theories:
1) Why is Web NOT voting Vector?
2) Why is Vector NOT accusing Web?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 05:56:54 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 05:59:26 am
The reason I chose the other way around is because I believe this version has higher chance of failure in less likely possible arrangements (Web/NJW, for example).
Under Web/NJW, it's possible that Web never actually used Prodigious Study on Vector, but (one of them; it's clear that there is an ability that can learn ability names, but not necessarily who has it or precisely what else it does) used it on me that turn instead. That would leave both of them free this turn.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 06:00:14 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:09:32 am
Also, I should add, partly because I am not sure Toonyman would go for lynching not-webadict.Eh, I think it's possible for them to kiss and make up. Toonyman has indicated more openness to the not-webadict world.
Well, I can construct the following alternate plan: Lynch Vector, Roden delays NJW if Vector was scum, or randomly from you and web if town. We can't lynch NJW reasonably, though, because if they are both town, Vector would also die.
The reason I chose the other way around is because I believe this version has higher chance of failure in less likely possible arrangements (Web/NJW, for example).
Under Web/NJW, it's possible that Web never actually used Prodigious Study on Vector, but (one of them; it's clear that there is an ability that can learn ability names, but not necessarily who has it or precisely what else it does) used it on me that turn instead. That would leave both of them free this turn.
I support the alternate plan.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:15:51 am
ToonyMan (0):
Roden (0):
EuchreJack (1): Vector
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (1): EuchreJack
webadict (1): Toonyman
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (4): Roden, NJW2000, webadict, Maximum Spin
4 to hammer.
Day 3 has begun, and will end 4 PM Monday, Central/Forum time, or on a hammer.
Post by: Roden on November 14, 2021, 07:42:10 am
Jack said something earlier about me being mechanically clear, and I thought that this could just be TMI, but uh...I think technically he's mostly right. Vector claiming Poison status means my scum buddy would have to perform the NK action, which alone crosses out two people.
I can't be paired with Web since his Study action last night is confirmed by Max.
I can't be paired with Max since his ressurect is confirmed to have happened.
I can't be paired with NJW since he confirmed himself as Voyeur on Day 2 and he was targeted by a Poison Doc the same night Poison didn't land on anyone.
Toony, who was the basis of why I was seen as potential mafia, flipped town.
Jack and Vector are the only players who can't be ruled out through confirmed night actions. Though Vector's alignment resolves itself tonight anyway, if they don't die from Poison like they've claimed then we can just vote them out tomorrow. Which just leaves Jack, but I've heavily suspected Jack of being the Primer, and with Max having an ability called Ember Track and successfully using it on Jack, it sounds like that's actually just the truth?
Max or Web, what exactly does the Ember Track do?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:50:47 am
Jack and Vector are the only players who can't be ruled out through confirmed night actions. Though Vector's alignment resolves itself tonight anyway, if they don't die from Poison like they've claimed then we can just vote them out tomorrow.
If Vector is mafia and is not voted out, then there is no tomorrow. Vector (or scumbuddy) detonates the 2 existing primes and 1 new prime.
There is no tomorrow where town can "fix this" if Vector is mafia.
Although, your delay might bring town a 50% of not losing N3. But does that save town?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:58:06 am
Post by: NJW2000 on November 14, 2021, 10:24:03 am
I voyeured Webadict. They were not hit with any abilities. They certainly were not poisoned or anything interesting like that, which lets me rule out one line of play scum could have been making.
Spoiler: why (click to show/hide)
Early mechanical analysis: From the claims, I think we have to conclude multi-tasking mafia. Or possibly some insanely brazen plays like Web claiming to have Max's ability but reserving the option of never using it... Huh. My money's on some kind of multi-tasking though, or at the very least passive weirdness like Max's claim.
Spoiler: question for Web (click to show/hide)
@EuchreJack: what? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328934#msg8328934) Feel free not to answer that.
@Toony: pretty sure this is town EJ. This is just a gut or soulread or whatever, but I'll eat my hat if he's managed to keep up this demeanour as mafia.
@Anyone trying to mechanically solve this game: I'm not 100% certain, but I suspect mafia have something weird and powerful like a "your target's target" passive or a multitask. There's a revive ability, so we can probably assume mafia has something pretty messed up. Look at the last game: Roden, Tric and I spent all of D3 trying and failing to puzzle out mechanical nonsense, while Toony ensured an ML and Vector instantly zeroed in on the one scum player remaining. I'm going to be voting on reads enhanced by mechanical info, not mechanical info or reads used to choose between mechanically equal choices.
On voting Vector: this makes a weird kind of sense, in that if they're lying about the poison voting them is good, and if they're telling the truth it's not a meaningful ML. On the other hand, if Vector is town, which is really, really, really likely, this puts us at 6 players at the end of the day, possibly with one primed, making tomorrow quite possible LyLo. I think we're likely to hit LyLo in any case even if we ML today. So we should probably elim today, but yeah, I guess instead of a no-elimination we always vote Vector?
On Max:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My gut is saying Webadict is probably the best elimination. He's been key to both the MLs, and also copied an ignite ability. I'm not 100% on this, it's been a weird game. More later, please refrain from hammering while I'm gone.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 10:51:58 am
I can imagine a world in which Vector is scum with someone other than NJW2000.
However, the Vector-NJW2000 scum team is the worst case scenario, and I will continue to analyze according to that theory.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 10:54:26 am
What?!?
Man, we got ourselves a winner here. Fucking nailing these goals. My theories are wacky, but that one is pretty dumb.
@Euchre: I can only do so much before I have to point out the holes in ToonyMan's
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 10:59:07 am
@Anyone trying to mechanically solve this game: I'm not 100% certain, but I suspect mafia have something weird and powerful like a "your target's target" passive or a multitask. There's a revive ability, so we can probably assume mafia has something pretty messed up. Look at the last game: Roden, Tric and I spent all of D3 trying and failing to puzzle out mechanical nonsense, while Toony ensured an ML and Vector instantly zeroed in on the one scum player remaining. I'm going to be voting on reads enhanced by mechanical info, not mechanical info or reads used to choose between mechanically equal choices.Also, you DID mechanically solve the game last Round. The only person who could've killed me N2 was ToonyMan!!!
Omfg!
Post by: NJW2000 on November 14, 2021, 11:05:39 am
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:21:22 am
I mean, sure, but not D3 I didn't. Toony lasted until D5 when he really shouldn't have. My point is, relying on what one thinks is a mechanical solution can lead to nasty suprises and disappointments.Okay, but the game was fully solved when your role was flipped, and the only reason you didn't solve it D3 is because you didn't read your role. But, the game was, indeed, mechanically solved.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 01:15:08 pm
Man you're right, I wasn't even thinking about that.
Why would Web target Max on N2? There's a huge reason why. On D2 Max admitted his track can cause primed people to die. Mafia don't start with this ignite so that's why Web can copy invest abilities. Neither of Web's targets on N1 or N2 make a lick of sense unless they're mafia.
Web should have targeted Jack on N1 since he was heavily hinting he was an invest role, Web did not. He targeted Vector the implied doctor.
Web should have targeted NJW on N2 since a vouyer that doesn't accidentally kill people is better than what Jack or Max claimed, Web did not. He targeted Max the one with the igniter.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 01:17:54 pm
You're miscounting primes. Vector was the N1 prime so at most two players will be primed on D4, with one being primed right now besides already dead Vector.
Post by: Vector on November 14, 2021, 01:25:53 pm
I have succeeded in my mission of getting Tric dead D1 and am now trying to succeed as town on zero effort U_U
I want you guys to think about priming in the context of Tric's sandwich-giving role. Tric's role "does nothing" except create a record of a neutral action between him and his target.
It's my theory as NJW says that like our JOAT's passive ignite, the mafia (or someone else) could have a passive priming action, piggy-backing onto someone else's target.
Euchrejack:
1. Regarding the poison overlap, it would make sense for me for a JOAT to have a one-shot poison move if scum also have a non-traditional NK.
2. I don't need to find your partner if it's you vs. me and I know that I'm town. You've been process-of-elimination'd according to present suspicions.
3. I've been online and reading, just not posting here. You can check my posting history if you want 9_9 Point is, yes, I coulda quickhammered if I wanted. But I didn't.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 01:53:02 pm
@NJW:It really doesn't matter who I targeted because you think I'm scum no matter what.
Man you're right, I wasn't even thinking about that.
Why would Web target Max on N2? There's a huge reason why. On D2 Max admitted his track can cause primed people to die. Mafia don't start with this ignite so that's why Web can copy invest abilities. Neither of Web's targets on N1 or N2 make a lick of sense unless they're mafia.
Web should have targeted Jack on N1 since he was heavily hinting he was an invest role, Web did not. He targeted Vector the implied doctor.
Web should have targeted NJW on N2 since a vouyer that doesn't accidentally kill people is better than what Jack or Max claimed, Web did not. He targeted Max the one with the igniter.
You know what, just fucking kill me. I'm cool with it. I used my fucking investigation copy to prime Vector somehow AND ALSO to copy Maximum Spin's track-ignite ability which is a one-shot so that I could ignite one person potentially with my INVESTIGATION COPYING ABILITY.
So, just to reiterate just how dumb that sounds, I'm an Investigative Student, BUT I'm also a Primer, with some type of Multi-task or the ability to perform a doubled action. And the bonus I receive by copying Investigative abilities... IS A ONE-SHOT IGNITE-TRACK? AGAINST A REVIVE ABILITY?!? (BECAUSE NJW2000 CAN CONFIRM THAT MY ABILITY CAN ONLY COPY INVESTIGATIVE ABILLITIES) AND YOU THINK SCUM IS SOMEHOW POWERFUL WITH THAT SETUP!?!
I'm astounded, truly, by the depths of your inanity, and I'd fully rather be dead than play with you, as confirmed Town, being this dumb. Truly, utterly, insanely. You acted like complete scum Yesterday, and, had you not, I would have unvoted you. It's kinda that simple. I, fully, do not see a way to convince I'm not scum, so I'm on board to lose the game.
Simplicity is insane to you. If I make insane theories, then you call that insane, but if you make insane theories, they're gold. Sure thing. Fucking blow my brains out. I'm into this shit. I'll hammer myself, just to prove you wrong! I've done it before, and I'll do it again. Because you cannot possibly fathom how 4 people hammered you, and I, alone, was the scum vote on that. That makes sense.
I pushed harder on you BECAUSE Roden claimed Delay on you, so you potentially had a double poison showing up the next Day. It made complete sense to do, and you acted as scummily as possible. And if you want to vote me out for that, that's really on you, and it will always be on you. Forever. I probably could try harder to defend myself, but it's a bit harder to do when you're a confirmed Townie, so I'd honestly rather just lose than deal with it. If you actually, truly, 100% think I'm scum, there will be no winning this game for Town, and I'd rather just get it over with now.
Thanks for listening to my TED Talk.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 01:59:14 pm
Hi, I'm not pissed about being poisoned, I love being NKed LOL. I'm playing shitty (or not-here) this game because I'm so burned out from last round.^Exactly what I claimed D2 for Max. I absolutely believe it. But, the only two people that could've done that are you, Maximum Spin, or Roden, unless you count Multi-task shenanigans.
I have succeeded in my mission of getting Tric dead D1 and am now trying to succeed as town on zero effort U_U
I want you guys to think about priming in the context of Tric's sandwich-giving role. Tric's role "does nothing" except create a record of a neutral action between him and his target.
It's my theory as NJW says that like our JOAT's passive ignite, the mafia (or someone else) could have a passive priming action, piggy-backing onto someone else's target.
Euchrejack:
1. Regarding the poison overlap, it would make sense for me for a JOAT to have a one-shot poison move if scum also have a non-traditional NK.
2. I don't need to find your partner if it's you vs. me and I know that I'm town. You've been process-of-elimination'd according to present suspicions.
3. I've been online and reading, just not posting here. You can check my posting history if you want 9_9 Point is, yes, I coulda quickhammered if I wanted. But I didn't.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 01:59:49 pm
Web/Max - 0% - Web wouldn't need to copy Max's ignite if they're both mafia.
Web/Vector - 0% - NJW would need to be mafia too.
Web/NJW - 0% - As I said at the start of D2, only one of these players is mafia. Call this an intuition after seeing Tric flip town and reading D1.
Web/Roden - 20% - It's possible, but I find unlikely right now.
Web/Jack - 80% - This is the one.
I'll be doing Web/Jack first in my looksie as they are the most likely pairing, followed by Web/Roden.
PPE:
waah I'm a babyVote me bitch.
On a more serious note, you're still posting like a jester. I don't sense an ounce of sincerity out of you, because you can't. For three days you've played the clown. Ignoring me on D1, sitting a vote on me D2 and doing nothing, crying like a baby on D3 because my logic fucking owns, yeah, you're scum.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 02:03:22 pm
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 02:14:35 pm
Web/Jack makes complete sense. Here, let me map it out for you:
N1:
webadict has a Prodigious Study (100% confirmed by NJW2000 about what this does and how it works.) webadict uses this ability on Vector (100% confirmed by NJW2000.)
EuchreJack has Investigate (100% confirmed by NJW2000 about what this does and how it works.) EuchreJack uses this ability on Vector (100% confirmed by NJW2000.)
One of these two uses Prime on Vector. (Has to, as no one claimed it.)
In fact, why don't we ALSO say that one of us also poisoned NJW2000, just to really make it even. We can just fucking assume it, or the Mafia team isn't balanced at fucking all.
webadict, after conferring with EuchreJack, decides that the best fucking move is to go after TricMagic when EuchreJack points out that I should be defending TricMagic D1.
webadict, ALSO after conferring with EuchreJack, ALSO targets Vector with a copying ability. To really, just, fucking, nail that investigation on Vector. This is done to prove that I targeted Vector... BUT, ALSO to cover up for the prime... Which I had to use on Vector at the same time for reasons. Probably role related. Let's not think about it, shall we?
So, N2:
webadict copies Maximum Spin (I've been proven to have this ability and proved it by stating Maximum Spin's ability name.)
EuchreJack targets NJW2000 (cannot be confirmed, sadly.) But, we know, for a fact, that EuchreJack has this ability, so it wouldn't make sense not to use it.
But, since we definitely have a Poison Tonight, one of us POISONED VECTOR. AFTER WE HAD PRIMED VECTOR. That makes sense, #1.
I'm assuming in this scenario that we also Primed another target, so that I could ignite one of them Tonight.
The sheer brilliance of these Night actions is, simply, staggering. I'm, somehow, going to put as much danger on myself as possible to go after TricMagic instead of pocketing him, AND ALSO GO AFTER TOONYMAN AFTER TRYING TO POCKET YOU?!
Astounding. Truly. This is the best Mafia play I've ever done. God, how am I so good at being Mafia?
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 02:20:56 pm
As NJW has stated, we can't mechanically figure out how mafia work until the game is over. Thus, our reads needs to be based on actual post analysis that is supported by mechanical info, not solely relying on it.Except that you can confirm pieces, like the fact that Prodigious Study is 100% confirmed to exist, and it 100% works as I claimed UNLESS you don't believe NJW2000.
And you can equally 100% confirm that Investigate exists and 100% works as EuchreJack claims UNLESS you don't believe NJW2000.
You want to justify having a 3-man scumteam, maybe? I'm just that scummy that I've got NJW2000 scumming for me with EuchreJack AND Vector backing me up!
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 02:43:43 pm
Frankly, doesn't clear me, but that's what I think.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 03:47:28 pm
Max or Web, what exactly does the Ember Track do?Haven't read rest of thread yet, sorry if web already answered, but:
It does exactly what I said before. It is a track, telling me who someone visits during the night, that also ignites a target who was previously primed. It told me that EuchreJack visited Vector, and did not ignite him.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 04:02:57 pm
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 04:17:11 pm
Although Roden's actions n1 can't be confirmed, it would have taken brass to claim to have delayed Toony without knowing whether Toony could have said "no you didn't".
I don't have a night action. I'm a vengeful townie, if I'm lynched during the day I can choose to kill one player. I will be targeting Web if I'm lynched, still want to go?ToonyMan claimed first.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 04:26:42 pm
Yeah, that makes Roden look pretty bad, since I agree that "prime your target's target" is an intuitively likely way out of this quandary.
Post by: Roden on November 14, 2021, 06:08:54 pm
In this scenario, mafia cannot win, even if I'm paired with Vector. Otherwise, if I'm town and they're scum, if Vector doesn't die of Poison tonight then all I have to do is Delay them to stop a mass Ignite. At most, mafia could have one townie Primed, because Vector is still confirmed to be Primed Night 1 (unless NJW lied, which he only does if paired with Vector).Jack and Vector are the only players who can't be ruled out through confirmed night actions. Though Vector's alignment resolves itself tonight anyway, if they don't die from Poison like they've claimed then we can just vote them out tomorrow.
If Vector is mafia and is not voted out, then there is no tomorrow. Vector (or scumbuddy) detonates the 2 existing primes and 1 new prime.
There is no tomorrow where town can "fix this" if Vector is mafia.
Although, your delay might bring town a 50% of not losing N3. But does that save town?
Even assuming unrestricted Multitasking:
Roden/Vector Scum Team
Night 1- No Poison, Vector is Primed
Night 2- Vector fake claims Poison, an unknown townie is Primed
Night 3- an unknown townie is Primed, Mafia chooses to Ignite
In this scenario, two townies die, but so does Vector. Even if we mislynch today, making it 4v2, it still becomes 2v1 Day 4 and I'm confirmed as scum. It's still a Town win.
NJW/Vector Scum Team
Night 1- No Poison, NJW fake claims that Vector is Primed, an unknown townie is Primed
Night 2- Vector fake claims Poison, an unknown townie is Primed
Night 3- an unknown townie is Primed, Mafia chooses to Ignite
...Oh, ok, yeah you're right, I'd only have a 50% chance to stop the Ignite. When I did the math in my head it looked better for town, but yeah that specific scenario is a win for the mafia. So I guess voting Vector is the safest play here. Tomorrow is likely end game though if they're town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 06:18:52 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:26:33 pm
The only person we can be totally sure wasn't primed is me.
Wow. Here I was assuming you knew that if Web was mafia then you were primed.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:29:42 pm
3. I've been online and reading, just not posting here. You can check my posting history if you want 9_9 Point is, yes, I coulda quickhammered if I wanted. But I didn't.
Ah, but there is a good reason you wouldn't have quickhammered Web. Thanks for the admission, so now I tell everyone about it.
Web is a Supersaint, or at least has been hinting about it for quite a while. Scum team of Vector and whomever (maybe NJW2000) don't want to quickhammer Web, as it means one of them could die.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:34:51 pm
2. I don't need to find your partner if it's you vs. me and I know that I'm town. You've been process-of-elimination'd according to present suspicions.
Ah, but if you were town, you would want to share your suspicions of whom is my partner, since according to your story you will be dying by end of day.
As mafia, you don't want to risk offending someone that could vote me, or not vote you. Ergo, you're hedging your bets by not accusing anyone else of being scum.
Not even Web, whom has been pointed out as a potential answer but is not currently voting you.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 06:37:28 pm
The only person we can be totally sure wasn't primed is me.I'm assuming this is a role-related thing?
Because if so, then this should be MORE evidence that I am Town, OR, at the very least, that a web/Jack team is improbable.
ToonyMan is going to use the fact that I targeted Vector and a Prime happened on Vector as evidence against me. However, this implies that if I were to use my investigation copying ability, that I also Prime with it. However, if I used this on you and you did not die, then it goes without saying that I either do not have to prime when I use my ability, OR I did not use my ability on you. If I did not use my ability on you, then WHO was Primed, assuming that Roden did not Prime:
Maximum Spin cannot be Primed.
ToonyMan was dead and not targetable.
Vector was already Primed.
NJW2000 is a possible target, but EuchreJack claimed to have watched NJW2000.
I am a possible target, but NJW2000 claimed watching me.
EuchreJack is a possible target.
Assume, for a second, that EuchreJack and I are a team: then, one of us Primed NJW2000, no? But, why would I target Maximum Spin without Priming? Why would I Prime Vector N1 with EuchreJack? You could argue that EuchreJack is the one Priming, though, but that still doesn't implicate me at all.
This also makes a web/Roden team impossible (or very, very, very improbable), since I would HAVE to have targeted Maximum Spin N2, but I also would have Primed if I had such an ability (Let's assume, for a second, that my theory on the Poison is totally correct.)
It's not likely to be Vector, and I don't want to vote them.2. I don't need to find your partner if it's you vs. me and I know that I'm town. You've been process-of-elimination'd according to present suspicions.
Ah, but if you were town, you would want to share your suspicions of whom is my partner, since according to your story you will be dying by end of day.
As mafia, you don't want to risk offending someone that could vote me, or not vote you. Ergo, you're hedging your bets by not accusing anyone else of being scum.
Not even Web, whom has been pointed out as a potential answer but is not currently voting you.
I'd still rather vote Roden.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:39:26 pm
@Jack:@Toonyman:
You're miscounting primes. Vector was the N1 prime so at most two players will be primed on D4, with one being primed right now besides already dead Vector.
You're believing NJW2000. While I respect his logic, I am unwilling to trust him. What if NJW2000 is lying?
You're smarter than this, Toonyman. I mean, you really are. You have to look at all the options.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:42:39 pm
Post by: Vector on November 14, 2021, 06:45:19 pm
I don't know who your partner is. I don't think it's Web because of meta behavior and this is all devolving into a morass of mechanical tells that plays exactly to my weakpoint as a player. Plus, I'm already dead. I kind of want to be dead in peace.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:46:57 pm
It's my theory as NJW says that like our JOAT's passive ignite, the mafia (or someone else) could have a passive priming action, piggy-backing onto someone else's target.@Vector: How do you think that would work?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 06:49:11 pm
Web is a Supersaint, or at least has been hinting about it for quite a while. Scum team of Vector and whomever (maybe NJW2000) don't want to quickhammer Web, as it means one of them could die.What.
Also, I'm pretty sure Jack primed NJW last night.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 06:50:51 pm
I have. I believe NJW over Web. If that means town loses then that just means NJW is the better player and I accept that.@Jack:@Toonyman:
You're miscounting primes. Vector was the N1 prime so at most two players will be primed on D4, with one being primed right now besides already dead Vector.
You're believing NJW2000. While I respect his logic, I am unwilling to trust him. What if NJW2000 is lying?
You're smarter than this, Toonyman. I mean, you really are. You have to look at all the options.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:52:23 pm
Really? That is it? You're our confirmed townie, and you're just giving up?I have. I believe NJW over Web. If that means town loses then that just means NJW is the better player and I accept that.@Jack:@Toonyman:
You're miscounting primes. Vector was the N1 prime so at most two players will be primed on D4, with one being primed right now besides already dead Vector.
You're believing NJW2000. While I respect his logic, I am unwilling to trust him. What if NJW2000 is lying?
You're smarter than this, Toonyman. I mean, you really are. You have to look at all the options.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:52:46 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:53:41 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:56:14 pm
Fine, you want to lose, then go for it.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 06:57:23 pm
Hardly. I'm writing a post for tonight why you and Web are the mafia team so I can gloat if I'm right after the game is over. If I'm wrong then I can learn where to improve, such as with my misunderstanding of Tric on D1.Really? That is it? You're our confirmed townie, and you're just giving up?I have. I believe NJW over Web. If that means town loses then that just means NJW is the better player and I accept that.@Jack:@Toonyman:
You're miscounting primes. Vector was the N1 prime so at most two players will be primed on D4, with one being primed right now besides already dead Vector.
You're believing NJW2000. While I respect his logic, I am unwilling to trust him. What if NJW2000 is lying?
You're smarter than this, Toonyman. I mean, you really are. You have to look at all the options.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 06:58:09 pm
What a waste of a confirmed townieI agree. But, he's 100% set on me being scum, so you're an unfortunate casualty of him retroactively justifying his bad choices.
I honestly think the best way to deal with him is to prove that the team is Roden and me, and then vote out Roden, because Roden is solo-scum.
That's not true. You've looked at all the options where I'm scum, which is *checks notes* completely wrong.I have. I believe NJW over Web. If that means town loses then that just means NJW is the better player and I accept that.@Jack:@Toonyman:
You're miscounting primes. Vector was the N1 prime so at most two players will be primed on D4, with one being primed right now besides already dead Vector.
You're believing NJW2000. While I respect his logic, I am unwilling to trust him. What if NJW2000 is lying?
You're smarter than this, Toonyman. I mean, you really are. You have to look at all the options.
ToonymanWhat the fuuuuuuuck are you doing.
Fine, you want to lose, then go for it.
Hardly. I'm writing a post for tonight why you and Web are the mafia team so I can gloat if I'm right after the game is over. If I'm wrong then I can learn where to improve, such as with my misunderstanding of Tric on D1.You can learn right now, because it's Roden.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 06:58:23 pm
ToonymanYes! Vote the confirmed town!!
Fine, you want to lose, then go for it.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 06:59:39 pm
VectorToonymanYes! Vote the confirmed town!!
Fine, you want to lose, then go for it.
At least I got your attention.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:00:14 pm
Why you gotta think like a Loser, Toonyman? Join team Winner, actually look at the game!Hardly. I'm writing a post for tonight why you and Web are the mafia team so I can gloat if I'm right after the game is over. If I'm wrong then I can learn where to improve, such as with my misunderstanding of Tric on D1.Really? That is it? You're our confirmed townie, and you're just giving up?I have. I believe NJW over Web. If that means town loses then that just means NJW is the better player and I accept that.@Jack:@Toonyman:
You're miscounting primes. Vector was the N1 prime so at most two players will be primed on D4, with one being primed right now besides already dead Vector.
You're believing NJW2000. While I respect his logic, I am unwilling to trust him. What if NJW2000 is lying?
You're smarter than this, Toonyman. I mean, you really are. You have to look at all the options.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 07:00:54 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 07:01:50 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:02:22 pm
I am not voting Roden. I roleblocked him last night and I believe the motivation and logic behind both of his night-actions. If Roden is mafia there's no partner that makes sense, so Web is correct that he would have to be solo scum, but that would also mean he bypassed my block and I strongly don't believe this is a solo mafia game.Hey, we agree on something! Good job Toonyman!
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:03:06 pm
Vector is also town unless exactly with NJW who I believe is town. You're trapped Jack.
Alright, just for a second, try imagining the world from my point of view. I know I'm town. The confirmed townie thinks I'm scum. What do I do?
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 07:04:10 pm
I am not voting Roden. I roleblocked him last night and I believe the motivation and logic behind both of his night-actions. If Roden is mafia there's no partner that makes sense, so Web is correct that he would have to be solo scum, but that would also mean he bypassed my block and I strongly don't believe this is a solo mafia game.That's a big negatory, ghost rider.
If Primes turn into Poisons, then it makes plenty of sense.
Unless you want to argue the scumteam both Primed AND Poisoned Vector on consecutive Nights.
Web, we still can't afford to get into a pissing match with Toonyman, so lay off ok?Oh, but it's soooo easy. All you have to do is be right, and it just sends him into an angry spiral!
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:05:58 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on November 14, 2021, 07:06:47 pm
-Not much to say in response to most of this, but if mafia have poison as well as arson, and didn't N1 poison for some reason, then yes it does make sense balance-wise.
-Uhhh... wait up. Prodigious study gives you a permenant copy of the ability, whatever that means. I assume that a permenant one-shot is a one-shot nonetheless, but I'd better check this with FoU.
-Toony... I am not voting Jack today without extremely convincing evidence. Weird theories are not enough. After you and myself, EJ is my last target today due to reads and a very clean record mechanically. If you think there is a case on Jack, I am going to read your arguments with more charity and attention than anyone else's, but you need to present it to us in one properly-argued post.
I mean, Web I'm starting to think is very likely scum. Throwing stuff out like "primes turn into poisons after a night"... he's better than that. So if that's your main target, less of a high burden of proof.
ToonymanDeep breaths. We can figure this out. I think Toony has gone a little mad with power after being townconfirmed and res'd, but there's still 7 players and most likely 2 mafia, we don't need his vote, strictly speaking.
Fine, you want to lose, then go for it.
EDIT: please stop posting before I can post, smf has stopped me like three times
Post by: NJW2000 on November 14, 2021, 07:09:13 pm
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 07:14:45 pm
@Web: Yeah, but he's confirmed town, so other town might actually listen to him. We're wasting time getting into these pissing matches. People don't want to read about it, then they ignore us, then they vote us, then town loses.Uggggghhhhhh.
Okay, but here's the thing, right?
Vector isn't likely to be lying because Maximum Spin backs up the poison thing. And I'm willing to believe NJW2000 and Vector aren't a scumteam because it doesn't make much sense. But, that literally leaves Roden, and ONLY Roden, as a possible suspect. Roden's actions are unconfirmed N1, and we've got a Prime and a Poison, both scum actions, happening to Vector. Why would scum Prime and then Poison? Because Prime turns into Poison. It would make sense that Maximum Spin can Ignite Primes, so that people can't find the causes of Poisons, AND if Maximum Spin is able to verify that Primes don't happen to them, then, again, the setup can be fairly balanced. Heck, ESPECIALLY if Roden can get other people to do their actions for them.
The point is that I'm not voting for Vector. I'm voting for Roden. And only Roden. Because Roden is the only person that can be scum.
Ok, FoU's online, so it turns out web just gets the one one-shot.Well, whaddaya know, looks like I was telling the truth, eh? There's a reason for that: I'm not scum.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 07:15:20 pm
Web's target becomes poisoned the following day.
Jack's target is primed concurrently with their inspect.
Web targets Vector N1
Jack targets Vector N1
Vector becomes primed, will become poisoned on D3
Web targets Max N2
Jack targets NJW N2
Vector's poison kicks in, still primed
Max has their Ember Track copied, will become poisoned on D4
Jack primes NJW
This post has just as much value as any of Web's shitty posts that don't scumhunt.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 07:16:51 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:20:46 pm
ToonyMan (0):
Roden (1): Webadict
EuchreJack (1): Vector
NJW2000 (0):
Vector (1): EuchreJack
webadict (1): Toonyman
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (4): Roden, NJW2000, Maximum Spin
4 to hammer.
Day 3 has begun, and will end 4 PM Monday, Central/Forum time, or on a hammer.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 07:22:35 pm
Like look at that, Web is voting Roden purely because of mechanical info. The exact same way he voted me on D2 and lazily voted Tric on D1. He doesn't care, at all. He's not scumhunting, he's not looking into how people are playing or anything. Complete garbage.Yep. You got me. My partner is Roden, though, so you should consider voting for them first.
Let me share a little bit of speculation I have as part of my larger post as a teaser, although let me state again that behavioral analysis is more valuable than mechanical guessing:Seriously, easy questions: Why would we Prime AND Poison Vector? Also, explain to me, please, which ability Poisons Vector from the list from NJW2000. Because, I'd have to have some type of echoing ability that Poisons to do that, because it didn't happen on N1 by your list.
Web's target becomes poisoned the following day.
Jack's target is primed concurrently with their inspect.
Web targets Vector N1
Jack targets Vector N1
Vector becomes primed, will become poisoned on D3
Web targets Max N2
Jack targets NJW N2
Vector's poison kicks in, still primed
Max has their Ember Track copied, will become poisoned on D4
Jack primes NJW
This post has just as much value as any of Web's shitty posts that don't scumhunt.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 07:25:21 pm
On D2, Web yelled over and over (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328366#msg8328366) that mechanically the scum had to be inside me, Roden, and Max.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 07:27:55 pm
On D2, Web yelled over and over (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8328366#msg8328366) that mechanically the scum had to be inside me, Roden, and Max.Weird, Roden is in that trio. Damn, I good at this game.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 07:30:08 pm
NJW, you're wrong about Jack. He's mafia.
I am here to show you the light. Unless Web and Jack actually work together and push a NJW/Vector team it's over for them. Max is town. Roden is town.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 07:33:59 pm
Vector, you're wrong about Webadict. He's mafia.It's not NJW or Vector. I refuse to vote for them. You will literally never see me try. You will eliminate me before I go after them. It doesn't make sense for the team to be Vector/NJW. One of them scum with Roden? Possible! But, I'm not gonna go after NJW/Vector because that team makes no sense.
NJW, you're wrong about Jack. He's mafia.
I am here to show you the light. Unless Web and Jack actually work together and push a NJW/Vector team it's over for them. Max is town. Roden is town.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:34:19 pm
I'm voting ToonyMan as promised. Scum!Web always softpedals that I maaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy be scum but he might not attack me oh no last minute time to launch Vector. Town!Web knows my alignment unerringly when I'm town. Somehow.
Anyway, Web is town, he has dropped none of his personal scumtells and I agree the old Toonster has slipped into his scumsided play.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 07:36:30 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:38:12 pm
But, I'm not gonna go after NJW/Vector because that team makes no sense.
We apparently differ on the world "sense", but just an FYI, it doesn't have to be Vector/NJW. It just has to be Vector/someone else. Vector/NJW is just the worst case scenario, because it means two townies are primed rather than one townie and one mafia. So for today, I have to work on the Vector/NJW hypothesis.
You know, it would be great if NJW could explain the full details of the abilities he saw.Yes, NJW's info has been...inconsistent. NJW has complete descriptions for Web's ability, but can't define "Primed".
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 07:40:06 pm
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 07:41:06 pm
Uh, Toonyman. Why are you against voting the person who hammered you:The only answers I have are insulting, so per your request, I won't say them.I'm voting ToonyMan as promised. Scum!Web always softpedals that I maaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy be scum but he might not attack me oh no last minute time to launch Vector. Town!Web knows my alignment unerringly when I'm town. Somehow.
Anyway, Web is town, he has dropped none of his personal scumtells and I agree the old Toonster has slipped into his scumsided play.
But, ToonyMan can't make a team of me and Vector, so he has to accept Vector is Town. Same for NJW2000. And since I refuse to go after them, it only reinforces that thought. But, if I also went after them, it would reinforce this thought. Toony has recreated the Toony Tunnel.
Honestly, I have been pushed into the despair state at this point. Town deserve to lose if this is the best we can do even after I resurrected a confirmed townie.I, disappointingly, agree.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:43:38 pm
Honestly, I have been pushed into the despair state at this point. Town deserve to lose if this is the best we can do even after I resurrected a confirmed townie.
Well, it isn't that bad. It's just disorganized. Heh, maybe you would have been better off resurrecting TricMagic.
Toonyman is pretty much useless for this day, but might prove his worth in later days.
Webadict is being Webadict, no idea what their end game might be.
Roden is pretty sharp.
NJW2000 is cooperative.
Vector is...well Vector.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 07:48:01 pm
The irritating thing is that it doesn't even make sense for a scum webadict to be pushing it.
If Roden is solo mafia here, I will be complaining to the manager.
Post by: Roden on November 14, 2021, 07:48:13 pm
Furthermore, I already proved we can't be the scum team. I was role blocked the same night you performed your Study action, which NJW confirmed you have and Max confirmed that you did it successfully. Yet there was still Poison.
It's impossible for me to be solo scum, and the only players I could be paired with are Vector and Jack. And I've already explained that if me and Vector are the mafia team, we already lost since they wouldn't actually die from Poison today and instead get themself killed with the supposed Ignite factional ability. This leaves Jack as my only potential partner that is not only possible, but also doesn't end in an automatic loss for the mafia team. But you town read Jack, so I should be town through PoE.
"But what about Multitasking?"
Then I'm hard confirmed as town because I claimed to Delay Toony Night 1. If I was Multitasking Mafia, I could use my fractional kill and Delay someone, I wouldn't have to fake claim targeting Toony like you accused me of doing.
Preview edit: Guys. It makes it a lot harder to keep up when you hyper post. Give us time to talk.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 07:53:59 pm
And thank you Web for toning things down a little.
The case against Vector:
Fact 1) Vector claims to have been poisoned, yet NJW2000 claims on the previous night that Vector was primed.
Fact 2) Vector claims Poison Doctor, yet Max claims Poison Doctor that Ignites
Fact 3) Vector was the third vote on lynch for TricMagic with a rather lousy explanation.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Fact 4) Vector Hammered ToonyMan, who is now confirmed town
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 07:58:22 pm
Web, wtf are you doing? I can't be solo scum because I was role blocked when a Poison happened, and this isn't a bastard game so we know mafia can't bypass role blocks. Prime turning into Poison isn't a thing that could ever exist because again, this isn't a bastard game, plus it would severely handicap mafia if they had to wait for two days for their NK to actually do anything.^This is the person that ToonyMan says is Town.
Furthermore, I already proved we can't be the scum team. I was role blocked the same night you performed your Study action, which NJW confirmed you have and Max confirmed that you did it successfully. Yet there was still Poison.
It's impossible for me to be solo scum, and the only players I could be paired with are Vector and Jack. And I've already explained that if me and Vector are the mafia team, we already lost since they wouldn't actually die from Poison today and instead get themself killed with the supposed Ignite factional ability. This leaves Jack as my only potential partner that is not only possible, but also doesn't end in an automatic loss for the mafia team. But you town read Jack, so I should be town through PoE.
"But what about Multitasking?"
Then I'm hard confirmed as town because I claimed to Delay Toony Night 1. If I was Multitasking Mafia, I could use my fractional kill and Delay someone, I wouldn't have to fake claim targeting Toony like you accused me of doing.
Preview edit: Guys. It makes it a lot harder to keep up when you hyper post. Give us time to talk.
Post by: Vector on November 14, 2021, 07:59:28 pm
You're all idiots, I'm going to sleep; is what I'd like to say. U_U
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 08:04:17 pm
Preview edit: Guys. It makes it a lot harder to keep up when you hyper post. Give us time to talk.That's because both of the mafia post like fucking crazy.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 08:05:00 pm
Dude, I'll hammer myself. Get me to L-1, I'll end this nightmare for everyone!Preview edit: Guys. It makes it a lot harder to keep up when you hyper post. Give us time to talk.That's because both of the mafia post like fucking crazy.
Post by: Vector on November 14, 2021, 08:06:20 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 08:08:32 pm
1) Mafia both primed and poisoned Vector
2) It is possible, in a FOU game, for there to be TWO players with almost identical roles (one doesn't apparently ignite people)
3) Eliminating Tric was a good call as town D1
4) Hammering Toonyman D2 was justified
Post by: Vector on November 14, 2021, 08:09:19 pm
Post by: Vector on November 14, 2021, 08:11:56 pm
Ready to put your money in your mouth, Wubzy?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 08:12:33 pm
EJ, you already posted that you dingus.Nah, the posts are different albet similar. Don't marginalize me.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 08:15:17 pm
OK, whatever. Toony's confirmed and apparently we're not killing EJ, so let's take out Webadict.Web doesn't have to do that. You certainly didn't vote yourself, Vector.
Ready to put your money in your mouth, Wubzy?
Hey Web, join me in voting Vector. It's PETTY and VINDICTIVE. Your favorites! But its also the right call.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 08:22:55 pm
Hmmmmm....OK, whatever. Toony's confirmed and apparently we're not killing EJ, so let's take out Webadict.Web doesn't have to do that. You certainly didn't vote yourself, Vector.
Ready to put your money in your mouth, Wubzy?
Hey Web, join me in voting Vector. It's PETTY and VINDICTIVE. Your favorites! But its also the right call.
HMMMMMMMMMM...
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
No. It's not Vector. Maybe next game it will be though!
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 08:25:58 pm
No. It's not Vector. Maybe next game it will be though!
Why not?
Post by: Vector on November 14, 2021, 08:29:28 pm
Dude, I'll hammer myself. Get me to L-1, I'll end this nightmare for everyone!
Web doesn't have to do that. You certainly didn't vote yourself, Vector.
I didn't claim that I would vote for myself though?
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 08:43:28 pm
Because Roden hasn't voted me yet.No. It's not Vector. Maybe next game it will be though!
Why not?
Post by: Roden on November 14, 2021, 08:44:06 pm
Toony came to the same conclusion Jack did: I am mechanically cleared.Web, wtf are you doing? I can't be solo scum because I was role blocked when a Poison happened, and this isn't a bastard game so we know mafia can't bypass role blocks. Prime turning into Poison isn't a thing that could ever exist because again, this isn't a bastard game, plus it would severely handicap mafia if they had to wait for two days for their NK to actually do anything.^This is the person that ToonyMan says is Town.
Furthermore, I already proved we can't be the scum team. I was role blocked the same night you performed your Study action, which NJW confirmed you have and Max confirmed that you did it successfully. Yet there was still Poison.
It's impossible for me to be solo scum, and the only players I could be paired with are Vector and Jack. And I've already explained that if me and Vector are the mafia team, we already lost since they wouldn't actually die from Poison today and instead get themself killed with the supposed Ignite factional ability. This leaves Jack as my only potential partner that is not only possible, but also doesn't end in an automatic loss for the mafia team. But you town read Jack, so I should be town through PoE.
"But what about Multitasking?"
Then I'm hard confirmed as town because I claimed to Delay Toony Night 1. If I was Multitasking Mafia, I could use my fractional kill and Delay someone, I wouldn't have to fake claim targeting Toony like you accused me of doing.
Preview edit: Guys. It makes it a lot harder to keep up when you hyper post. Give us time to talk.
I cannot be solo scum. I can only be paired with either Jack or Toony, whom you both town read. In the case of Multitasking, I am hard cleared since faking targeting Toony would be pointless due to being free to target whoever I want while also targeting someone with the factional kill. There is no feasible way for me to be mafia.
What is there to dispute?
Post by: Roden on November 14, 2021, 08:50:29 pm
Jack brought up that the safest choice today would be to vote Vector. Best case scenario, we stop a big brain Ignite strategy. Worst case scenario, it's no different from a No-Lynch if Vector flips town and does die from Poison.Because Roden hasn't voted me yet.No. It's not Vector. Maybe next game it will be though!
Why not?
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 08:52:08 pm
You also haven't voted Vector yet.Jack brought up that the safest choice today would be to vote Vector. Best case scenario, we stop a big brain Ignite strategy. Worst case scenario, it's no different from a No-Lynch if Vector flips town and does die from Poison.Because Roden hasn't voted me yet.No. It's not Vector. Maybe next game it will be though!
Why not?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 08:52:59 pm
True enough, you only claimed that you didn't care if you were voted out.Dude, I'll hammer myself. Get me to L-1, I'll end this nightmare for everyone!Web doesn't have to do that. You certainly didn't vote yourself, Vector.
I didn't claim that I would vote for myself though?
Hm, there could be a third option where both Vector & I are town. Toonyman should have seen it, but its a not-Web scumteam, so of course Toonyman missed it.
Post by: NJW2000 on November 14, 2021, 09:04:50 pm
Spoiler: clarification on abilities (click to show/hide)
@EuchreJack: thank you for this post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8329323#msg8329323) Makes a strong, concise case on in-thread evidence without untoward speculation. This is head and shoulders above most of today.
I disagree with it, because I think my seeing Vector get primed would change what scum wanted to do. A 1-shot poison doctor is hard to believe, and Vector was locktown to most people D2, so poisoning them would make sense as they could stop a kill and would be harder to ignite. And cause chaos, I guess. I do wish I could read the low-justification vote on Tric and the hammer as alignment-indicative, but after round three I sympathise with Vector having a policy elim on Tric and expect the hammer from town!Vector.
Anyway, I bothered to respond to this because it was good, not because it was weak.
Post by: Roden on November 14, 2021, 09:06:04 pm
Because I'm not ready for today to end.You also haven't voted Vector yet.Jack brought up that the safest choice today would be to vote Vector. Best case scenario, we stop a big brain Ignite strategy. Worst case scenario, it's no different from a No-Lynch if Vector flips town and does die from Poison.Because Roden hasn't voted me yet.No. It's not Vector. Maybe next game it will be though!
Why not?
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 09:08:22 pm
Can I just be dead? Can I be dead like Tric? Can I trade places with Tric?
I'm already dead on the inside, can I also be dead on the outside?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 09:10:33 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 09:22:15 pm
Hey, you know what? I'm a bit strained going through hundreds upon hundreds of posts trying to work out who is and isn't mafia, so my psionic powers aren't operating at their usual capacity. Maybe you can tell me when you want an ability clarified, rather than going for this passive-aggressive stuff? I thought you came from a confrontational culture, Max.First of all, I wasn't being passive-aggressive. You weren't even around to ask, so I just stated that I wanted to hear the details, hoping you would see it when you came around. But I don't understand why you were so vague about it in the first place.
Quote
Anything else you want clarified? If you've asked me this, I've missed it in the endless posts, so I won't know until you tell me.Yes, what does the ability EuchreJack claimed do, exactly? I only ever saw you describe the other two. I would just like a thorough explanation of the effects of each like I gave about Ember Tracking. "Priming gives someone the primed status" was actually fine.
Post by: Roden on November 14, 2021, 09:32:59 pm
Well, I'm having doubts about Vector, so I'll UNVOTE.This doesn't leave many options. Vector wants you gone, and from my perspective only you and Web are the only other players I would vote for besides Vector. I'm leaning more towards Web since I don't think you have much motivation to mention that I'm mechanically cleared if you're mafia. Who do you plan to vote for?
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 10:03:21 pm
In no way, shape, or form, are you mechanically cleared, for the same reasons that I'm not mechanically cleared, except you're EVEN LESS mechanically cleared because your Night 1 action is unconfirmed.Well, I'm having doubts about Vector, so I'll UNVOTE.This doesn't leave many options. Vector wants you gone, and from my perspective only you and Web are the only other players I would vote for besides Vector. I'm leaning more towards Web since I don't think you have much motivation to mention that I'm mechanically cleared if you're mafia. Who do you plan to vote for?
1. Being unable to be roleblocked is NOT bastard mechanics, there are a number of roles that are IMMUNE to actions, and plenty of roles that can do things through roleblocks. It's not rocket science. It's unlikely, but it is possible.
2. Prime to Poison is ALSO not bastard. There's no reason to think so.
3. I'm much more mechanically cleared than you are. My N1 and N2 action and targets are confirmed. My role is essentially confirmed. Your Night 1 target and action are unconfirmed. Only your N2 action and target are confirmed.
4. I can absolutely believe that Vector and EuchreJack are Town AND that you're scum. Doesn't make sense not to.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 10:08:44 pm
Here's literally ONE example.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ascetic
Here's another.
Boom, not cleared.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 10:21:57 pm
There are only three options:
1) Vector is lying about being poisoned.
2) NJW poisoned Vector
3) I, EuchreJack, poisoned Vector
There is also the possibility of slow acting, slow detecting poison, but I'm going to disregard that.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 10:23:47 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 10:29:48 pm
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 10:31:22 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 10:34:42 pm
Also: I'm really surprised Web is getting scum read for Studying Max. Town!Web is curious!Web, and can't help but check out the strange and mysterious powers that Max might have, rather than checking out NJW's lame Voyeur ability. Really, I can't have been the only one that saw that coming.I agree with this, for the record.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 10:35:12 pm
If Vector is scum, then who even has poisoning?If Vector is scum, then Vector is the poisoner. I still can't get over the fact that both Vector and Max are claimed poison docs, and I believe Max.
Is it possible for there to be TWO poison doctors? You recall how TWO cops worked out last round.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 10:35:38 pm
If Vector is scum, then who even has poisoning?I don't know, Vector? NJW? Nobody? Maybe my poison doctor ability is 100% a fakeout to get me to accidentally trip primes.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 10:36:01 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 10:39:50 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 10:41:53 pm
Day 1:
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End of Day 1
Day 2:
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End of Day 2
Day 3
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Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 10:43:46 pm
I was totally going to post this before EuchreJack said that.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 10:44:58 pm
This leaves Web, Jack, and Roden.
Web is always mafia so let's look at Web/Jack first as I feel that's much more likely than Web/Roden. We'll specifically be looking at Jack since Webadict is leading the pack here. We want to be sure who we're voting tomorrow after we kill Web today.
Day 1
I claim that it's NJW and Max's turns to be mafia. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327075#msg8327075)
Jack agrees (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327077#msg8327077) even though it's a gambler's fallacy. Jack says he doesn't think both would be in the mafia team, but he thinks there's one mafia between NJW and Max.
This is the second post of the game. NJW and Max haven't even posted.
NJW does a FoS on Jack for bad logic. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327127#msg8327127)
Webadict decides to ignore me for D1, how helpful. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327140#msg8327140)
Webadict votes TricMagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327156#msg8327156) because Tric votes Roden for bad reasons. Webadict's vote never moves after this point until Tric is lynched. I agree that Tric's reasons for voting Roden were poor and Tric does unvote Roden. I share more of my confusion over Tric here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327655#msg8327655) later in the day. Webadict shows no hesistance about Tric, a player he's supposedly extremely good at reading.
Jack votes NJW (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327160#msg8327160) with some soft pressure.
Webadict doesn't believe Tric, responding to Jack. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327164#msg8327164)
Me explaining to Tric why Roden is probably town. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327217#msg8327217) Tric unvotes Roden here.
Jack hints at being a watcher. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327225#msg8327225) Webadict does not choose to target Jack on N1. You wouldn't target your mafia partner after all.
Jack straight up states they really think NJW or Max could be mafia because they haven't had a chance to be mafia yet. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327234#msg8327234)
NJW votes Webadict and starts to attack him here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327272#msg8327272) Webadict blows the fuck up on NJW for the rest of the day (while still voting Tric). It's the biggest reason why Web/NJW isn't possible to me.
Vector softclaims a doctor role. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327319#msg8327319) Not an investigation role.
Webadict doesn't believe Vector that scum have poison. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327321#msg8327321)
L O FUCKING L
Try to show D2 Webadict that and you wouldn't think it's the same person.
I put down some D1 reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327369#msg8327369), this is important for later.
Webadict literally copy pastes my reads. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327375#msg8327375) Thinks me and Max are town and that my scumreads NJW and Tric are mafia. This whole posts reads like a joke, especially going to Day 2.
Jack's reads have the exact same scumreads of NJW and Tric. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327394#msg8327394) The same scumreads I had, the same scumreads Web copied. Jack and Web were completely in-sync with my wrong reads. Gives Webadict a "straight null", only above NJW and Tric.
Jack defends Web from Tric right after. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327396#msg8327396)
NJW puts Jack at the top of their reads and Webadict at the bottom of their reads. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327456#msg8327456) This is actually relevant since I've noticed NJW tends to either get one read completely correct and one completely wrong, or have both mafia somewhere around the middle. For this list the two in the middle are me and Tric so...
NJW has also stayed very consistent with believing Jack is town, even into D3 now. I think that shows some believability into town!NJW.
I switch from NJW to Tric. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327478#msg8327478) My vote doesn't move the rest of the day.
Tric's feelings. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327480#msg8327480) Doesn't trust Web or NJW. Thinks Max is fitting their town meta. "Jack is off, but not that off. Roden is weird, but I'm weird." Slight town read on Vector.
I explain to Tric that there's a good chance Webadict is mafia if Tric is town. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327502#msg8327502)
Tric complies and votes Webadict over me or NJW. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327508#msg8327508)
I find Jack's top townread of Vector extremely odd. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327565#msg8327565)
Max hints at their death-related role. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327610#msg8327610) It's really subtle so I didn't even notice.
NJW sticks with voting Webadict. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327633#msg8327633) Webadict predictably explodes on him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327657#msg8327657), calling him names and shitting on his play, just like when I accused Web on D2. I should mention it's not the serious kind of hate from Web, but the condescending "I'm so much better than you" smug hate that you wouldn't see with town!Web.
Web continues to vote Tric.
I explain how everyone has voted so far. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327668#msg8327668)
Web declares me, Jack, and Roden town. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327675#msg8327675) States that Roden is unlikely to be paired with anyone. Vector is slightly town. Max is being aloof. NJW has made an extremely shitty case on our lord Web. Tric is weird and mafia.
This of course points to either a Web/Jack or Web/Roden team.
Web thinks Vector is being honest with their policy-lynch vote on Tric. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327683#msg8327683)
Jack jumps on Tric now. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327690#msg8327690) We could speculate this is to ensure Web isn't lynched, even though Web was at the bottom 3 of Jack's reads alongside Tric and NJW.
Web thinks Jack should NEVER be vig-killed when Max asks the question of who he should vig if he had the ability to. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327703#msg8327703)
Funny enough, Max did target Jack with Ember Tracking which shows that Max was okay the most with Jack possibly dying on N1. Really going against what Web said, heh.
Jack doesn't want Web to be vigged (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327708#msg8327708) since "if town it's his first game this tournament as town."
Roden is confused that me and Web are unable to read each other in this game. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327717#msg8327717)
And that's Day 1. Web and Jack have each others back constantly through the day. Web attacks Tric and NJW. Jack goes from voting NJW to voting Tric, the exact same voting pattern I had. Exploiting the fact I was incorrect.
Currently on this Day 3, Jack is pushing for Vector while Webadict is pushing for Roden. But in reality, they are both 100% okay with Roden since they probably win the game if they can mislynch someone who isn't Vector. We might be able to have another day if we mislynch Vector, but why not just lynch mafia today?
Day 2 has a lot more to go through and I have work tomorrow so I'm not sure I'll get through it before deadline, but I will try to get the main meat of Day 2 between Web and Jack.
PPE:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=StrongmanWHO CARES ABOUT
Here's literally ONE example.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ascetic
Here's another.
Boom, not cleared.
MECHANICAL BULLSHIT
FUCKING
SCUMHUNT
That thing you're incapable of doing in this game.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 10:46:12 pm
NJW2000 anyway.
I was totally going to post this before EuchreJack said that.
NJW is never mafia because Webadict is mafia.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 10:47:34 pm
In no way, shape, or form, are you mechanically cleared, for the same reasons that I'm not mechanically cleared, except you're EVEN LESS mechanically cleared because your Night 1 action is unconfirmed.AMAZING SCUMHUNTING
10/10 YOU GOT RODEN
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 10:49:35 pm
To be clear, Roden is cleared as having not poisoned Vector N2. Roden was roleblocked N2 by Toonyman.
There are only three options:
1) Vector is lying about being poisoned.
2) NJW poisoned Vector
3) I, EuchreJack, poisoned Vector
There is also the possibility of slow acting, slow detecting poison, but I'm going to disregard that.
THIS ISN'T SCUMHUNTING
THIS ISN'T SCUMHUNTING
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 10:56:48 pm
To be clear, Roden is cleared as having not poisoned Vector N2. Roden was roleblocked N2 by Toonyman.
There are only three options:
1) Vector is lying about being poisoned.
2) NJW poisoned Vector
3) I, EuchreJack, poisoned Vector
There is also the possibility of slow acting, slow detecting poison, but I'm going to disregard that.
THIS ISN'T SCUMHUNTING
THIS ISN'T SCUMHUNTING
Like you're one to talk. How have you contributed today?
Fuck it, I'm just gonna vote Roden, and if scum hammer because I'm wrong, then fuck it.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:01:08 pm
I think he literally just went through every post to try and find me as scum. I can only assume that he wants payback for being scummy D2.
ToonyMan, seriously, consider one thing: If I am not scum, who is?
Because it ain't Vector, it ain't Max, it ain't EuchreJack, and it ain't you.
Also, no offense, but no one is reading your shitlist. Pack it in a bit.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 11:02:45 pm
Webadict decides to ignore me for D1, how helpful. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8327140#msg8327140)@Toonyman: Is this what it is all about? Web ignores you D1, so you have to punish him, even if means losing the game for the rest of us?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 11:03:07 pm
Look, Toony, I actually think Web/NJW is possible. As for asking why mafia NJW would claim Vector was primed, this seems entirely plausible even if it's *true*, if, for example, someone has a prime but no ignite and was hoping there's an ignite ally. I don't necessarily think it's the most likely, but I'll take the attempt since a town Roden can be counted upon to execute the clearly sound principles of my earlier plan. Bizarro strongman soloscum Roden whom only webadict can see deserves to win, if that's seriously the reality.
On the other hand, I'm open to any consensus between you and me and Roden.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 11:03:58 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 11:05:48 pm
Why would Web target Vector on N1 and you on N2? Neither of those actions make sense as town.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:06:33 pm
NJW2000 anyway.Honestly... I'll vote NJW2000. It feels incredibly stupid when I am almost positive that Roden is scum, but I'll do it. I seriously do not think Vector or Euchre are scum.
I was totally going to post this before EuchreJack said that.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:07:53 pm
@Max:My decisions are beyond mortal comprehension.
Why would Web target Vector on N1 and you on N2? Neither of those actions make sense as town.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 11:08:24 pm
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:11:42 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 11:14:39 pm
I'd have to do more research before putting NJW into hammer range.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 11:17:57 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 11:20:02 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 14, 2021, 11:22:34 pm
Looks horrible for Web though, he's the start of every mislynch which is personally my biggest scumtell.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 11:27:03 pm
Doesn't mean anything for Roden, he's voted just like that as town and mafia.
Looks horrible for Web though, he's the start of every mislynch which is personally my biggest scumtell.
You don't think that Roden being L-1, and yet you are mislynched, is relevant? Especially since you and Max were on the Roden lynch?
If Roden was town, then mafia chose to mislynch you and possibly get vig'd by you. Instead of mislynching Roden, a townie delayer.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:29:05 pm
Buuut, Euchre isn't scum based entirely on one post from Day 2.
NJW/Roden? In this particular case, I have scumsided twice in a row. That sucks. Technically still possible, as NJW's ability is unconfirmed for N2.
Maybe NJW lied about the Prime? Maybe the Prime is an ability only Roden can use? Maybe the Prime is an additional ability and NJW lied about?
Max has to be right then. Poison can't be from Prime or else his ability makes no sense.
NJW2000 and Roden then.
Poison HAS to exist. Vector wasn't Primed at all N1. No, possibly... ToonyMan or EuchreJack. Perhaps Poison wasn't available Night 1.
Night 2, NJW uses Poison on Vector. No one is Primed because Roden is RBed.
Hey, Vector, would you mind beating up ToonyMan for me? He's being a bully.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:32:57 pm
Doesn't mean anything for Roden, he's voted just like that as town and mafia.Meh, I've looked worse. Played worse, too!
Looks horrible for Web though, he's the start of every mislynch which is personally my biggest scumtell.
I'll shift my attention away from "just" Roden and to NJW and Roden. ToonyMan has to make sense of me being on a team where I Primed and Poisoned Vector, in spite of me copying an Ignite.
Makes no goddamned sense, man...
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:36:12 pm
Yeah, okay, doing the math, I'm okay with being voted here. 7p -> 5p and I'll bet on the Mafia having only Poisons and Primes.
And then ToonyMan can wake the fuck up.
Or Town loses, whatever.
Post by: webadict on November 14, 2021, 11:39:16 pm
Comment below for who you think is most responsible when Town loses!
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 11:45:44 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 11:47:33 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 14, 2021, 11:50:03 pm
I can't tell who fucked up more this game: me or ToonyMan.I feel like there is plenty of blame to go around and have already accepted my own share.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 14, 2021, 11:52:04 pm
Had to go through it a few times. Vector has to be lying about poison in order for NJW not to be on the scum team, which means town has an extra day to figure things out if I'm wrong.
Yeah, although I wish I knew how to avoid my own faults in the future. I post too much, but at least on this day I see no other option.I can't tell who fucked up more this game: me or ToonyMan.I feel like there is plenty of blame to go around and have already accepted my own share.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 15, 2021, 12:00:43 am
ToonyMan (0):
Roden (1): Webadict
EuchreJack (1):
NJW2000 (2): Maximum Spin, EuchreJack
Vector (1):
webadict (2): Toonyman, Vector
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (2): Roden, NJW2000
4 to hammer.
Day 3 has begun, and will end 4 PM Monday, Central/Forum time, or on a hammer.
Post by: Roden on November 15, 2021, 12:01:45 am
In no way, shape, or form, are you mechanically cleared, for the same reasons that I'm not mechanically cleared, except you're EVEN LESS mechanically cleared because your Night 1 action is unconfirmed.Well, I'm having doubts about Vector, so I'll UNVOTE.This doesn't leave many options. Vector wants you gone, and from my perspective only you and Web are the only other players I would vote for besides Vector. I'm leaning more towards Web since I don't think you have much motivation to mention that I'm mechanically cleared if you're mafia. Who do you plan to vote for?
1. Being unable to be roleblocked is NOT bastard mechanics, there are a number of roles that are IMMUNE to actions, and plenty of roles that can do things through roleblocks. It's not rocket science. It's unlikely, but it is possible.
2. Prime to Poison is ALSO not bastard. There's no reason to think so.
3. I'm much more mechanically cleared than you are. My N1 and N2 action and targets are confirmed. My role is essentially confirmed. Your Night 1 target and action are unconfirmed. Only your N2 action and target are confirmed.
4. I can absolutely believe that Vector and EuchreJack are Town AND that you're scum. Doesn't make sense not to.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=StrongmanLet's get this straight. You've now accused me of:
Here's literally ONE example.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ascetic
Here's another.
Boom, not cleared.
-Being Toony's mafia partner
-Being solo mafia
-Being a fake Delayer
-Being a real Delayer
-Being a Primer
-Being a Poisoner
-Being a Prime-to-Poison Converter
-Having Multitasking
-Not having Multitasking
-Being Ascetic
-Being a Strongman
You've gone full mental gymnastics, throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks. You accuse Toony of twisting the game to make you look scummy but then do the exact same thing to me. This is just projection at this point. You're mad that you can't actually accuse me of being scum because logic and rational thinking proves that I'm town, so now I have to have a dozen modifiers, roles, and factional kills in order for you to justify your accusation towards me.
You're flailing hard, Web.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 15, 2021, 12:06:19 am
Roden's third vote reinforces this, as it is an argument to be reviewed later.
Post by: Roden on November 15, 2021, 12:07:33 am
@Roden: Why do you think is scum?I honestly don't fucking know at this point. If Web isn't one of of them and Vector dies from Poison, it literally only leaves you and NUW. Toony is confirmed town, mafia can't have a ressurect since they can just win a 1v2 endgame with it, so Max is town, and I know I'm town and am mechanically cleared.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 15, 2021, 12:11:38 am
But what if Vector doesn't die from poison?@Roden: Why do you think is scum?I honestly don't fucking know at this point. If Web isn't one of of them and Vector dies from Poison, it literally only leaves you and NUW. Toony is confirmed town, mafia can't have a ressurect since they can just win a 1v2 endgame with it, so Max is town, and I know I'm town and am mechanically cleared.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 15, 2021, 12:17:17 am
ToonyMan (0):
Roden (1): Webadict
EuchreJack (1):
NJW2000 (2): Maximum Spin, EuchreJack
Vector (1):
webadict (3): Toonyman, Vector, Roden
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): NJW2000
4 to hammer.
Day 3 has begun, and will end 4 PM Monday, Central/Forum time, or on a hammer.
Post by: Roden on November 15, 2021, 12:24:30 am
I think we've already gone over what this entails.But what if Vector doesn't die from poison?@Roden: Why do you think is scum?I honestly don't fucking know at this point. If Web isn't one of of them and Vector dies from Poison, it literally only leaves you and NUW. Toony is confirmed town, mafia can't have a ressurect since they can just win a 1v2 endgame with it, so Max is town, and I know I'm town and am mechanically cleared.
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2021, 12:26:30 am
Weird that Vector called me Town and then voted me. What a hypocrite.
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2021, 12:28:29 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 15, 2021, 12:33:35 am
Web, wouldn't you rather lynch NJW?
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2021, 12:47:18 am
Web, wouldn't you rather lynch NJW?Technically, yes, but at least two Town are voting me, and NJW is not, so there's no way to avoid being hammered if NJW is scum.
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2021, 12:50:32 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 15, 2021, 12:50:44 am
Web, wouldn't you rather lynch NJW?Technically, yes, but at least two Town are voting me, and NJW is not, so there's no way to avoid being hammered if NJW is scum.
Well, at least if NJW is scum, then Toonyman will have to admit that NJW is the better mafia player.
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2021, 12:52:16 am
Post by: ToonyMan on November 15, 2021, 01:06:18 am
It's possible we go into D4 still since I was brought back to life and Vector was double targeted by mafia.
I'm never unvoting you today, but this will be extremely valuable if the game continues. It would be redemption for myself and you.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 15, 2021, 01:09:56 am
If your analysis is correct and you managed to peg the mafia before dying, that can be considered a personal victory.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 15, 2021, 01:10:54 am
NJW/Roden
NJW/Jack
Jack/Roden
Max/any of the above
Post by: ToonyMan on November 15, 2021, 01:16:25 am
I mean you can still consider NJW/Vector as mafia, but just know that NJW will likely confirm themselves before deadline by either hammering or not hammering.
PPE:
@Web: You have to admit, it is suspicious that several possible scum teams could have hammered you after Vector's vote.NJW hasn't been online in hours.
NJW/Roden
NJW/Jack
Jack/Roden
Max/any of the above
Post by: ToonyMan on November 15, 2021, 01:21:58 am
It's just those two I think if mafia have lylo, which is debatable.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 15, 2021, 01:23:22 am
@Web: You have to admit, it is suspicious that several possible scum teams could have hammered you after Vector's vote.NJW hasn't been online in hours.
NJW/Roden
NJW/Jack
Jack/Roden
Max/any of the above
OK, whatever. Toony's confirmed and apparently we're not killing EJ, so let's take out Webadict.
Ready to put your money in your mouth, Wubzy?
Spoiler: clarification on abilities (click to show/hide)
@EuchreJack: thank you for this post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8329323#msg8329323) Makes a strong, concise case on in-thread evidence without untoward speculation. This is head and shoulders above most of today.
I disagree with it, because I think my seeing Vector get primed would change what scum wanted to do. A 1-shot poison doctor is hard to believe, and Vector was locktown to most people D2, so poisoning them would make sense as they could stop a kill and would be harder to ignite. And cause chaos, I guess. I do wish I could read the low-justification vote on Tric and the hammer as alignment-indicative, but after round three I sympathise with Vector having a policy elim on Tric and expect the hammer from town!Vector.
Anyway, I bothered to respond to this because it was good, not because it was weak.
Stop calling me stupid, Toonyman
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2021, 01:23:36 am
Web if you're town and confident this game won't end if you're mislynched then I need some actual thought of who you think scum are. Please give me actual insight into this that isn't just mechanical info. Reread the round for me. Explain to me why Roden is scum based on their actual posts. Or NJW, or anybody!Gonna be honest, I will be rereading jackshit. I will be hammering myself because you deserve to lose. Not just for your play D2, but also for your play D3. I will be hammering myself because no one stopped ToonyMan from being an absolute dumpster fire as confirmed Town. I will be hammering myself because this Day was a nightmare. I will be hammering myself because being deD is better than being around ToonyMan.
It's possible we go into D4 still since I was brought back to life and Vector was double targeted by mafia.
I'm never unvoting you today, but this will be extremely valuable if the game continues. It would be redemption for myself and you.
I want you to say that your play was malignant as cancer, and that given every opportunity, you chose to lose.
If I flip Town. Which I will.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 15, 2021, 01:24:22 am
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2021, 01:27:02 am
Post by: ToonyMan on November 15, 2021, 01:28:18 am
NJW hasn't been on in hours, he can't respond to Web being at L-1 is what I mean here.
@Web:
You could at least help, we definitely deserve to lose if you self-hammer as town instead of figuring out who mafia are. I'm doing what I can so I'm at least happy that I'm trying.
PPE:
webadictThank you.
I can now quit mafia
Post by: webadict on November 15, 2021, 01:29:56 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 15, 2021, 01:31:35 am
Quote from: Votecount
ToonyMan (0):
Roden (0):
EuchreJack (0):
NJW2000 (2): Maximum Spin, EuchreJack
Vector (0):
webadict (4): ToonyMan, Vector, Roden, webadict
Maximum Spin (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): NJW2000
4 to hammer.
ToonyMan, Vector, and Roden clustered around webadict, who was standing on the rim of the execution pit. He hollered. "Stop! Not another step closer! If you come any closer I'll throw myself into the pit. So don't test me!"
ToonyMan snorted. "Really." He stepped closer. webadict shrieked, threw up his arms, waving them madly. "Oh gods! He's calling my bluff! Ahahaha - oops." That last word, he spoke as his foot slipped over the edge of the execution pit.
It was decided that that would count as this dark day's execution. Still, at the very least, there would be the reward of finally doing in one of the interlopers, right?
Searching the room of this day's fallen, however, did not reveal any malign materials, nor any dangerous devices. webadict may have been crazy - the exhaustion of the day would snap anyone's mind - but he was innocent.
webadict was Town.
All that was left in his bedroom was a stack of textbooks stacked messily inside a backpack. It seemed that he was a company intern.
Quote
Investigative Student (town):
(Night) Prodigious Study [target]: You study your target in action. If they possess an investigative ability, you gain a permanent copy of that ability if you do not already have a copy of that ability. If they possess multiple investigative abilities, you only copy one of them (selected at random). Investigative abilities are abilities that return informative results after being used.
Vector chuckled darkly. "Fuck." Their chuckle turned into more of a cough, then a whimper, then a whisper. Their body hit the floor, unmoving.
There was only barely enough time to check their room as well, but the conclusion was practically inevitable, with a death like that.
Vector was Town.
Their drug kit was unlabeled - nobody else could muster the knowledge to use it. What a loss it was. What a loss they were.
Quote
2-Shot Poison Doctor (town):
(2-Shot, Night) Antidote [target]: You administer a poison-antidote injection, preventing your target from receiving the Poisoned status effect this Night. You only have two antidotes to use, however.
It was too dark to do anything more. Time was running out. There was so much loss. So much sacrifice. Time had been running out for a while, now.
Night 3 has begun. It will end Tuesday, at 1 AM (Central time) or when I have received and am able to process all needed Night actions or the absence thereof.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 16, 2021, 12:21:32 pm
"Where's Maximum Spin and ToonyMan?"
Roden shrugged. "I don't think they're coming." He nodded to NJW2000. EuchreJack's eyes widened and he took off, only to get shoved in the execution pit.
"Easy. What happened to the other two, anyways?"
Maximum Spin's body lay slumped on the floor, too weak to resist the poison.
Maximum Spin was Town.
Quote
Sickly Arsonist JOAT (town):
(1-Shot, Night) Healing Flames [target]: You cast a spiritual flame on your target, preventing them from being afflicted by the Poisoned status effect this Night. You kill your target if they have the Primed status effect.
(1-Shot, Night) Ember Tracking [target]: You use embers to scorch runes into the floor, and read them to determine who your target visits this Night. You kill your target if they have the Primed status effect.
(1-Shot, Night) Fire of Life [target]: You can only target dead players with this ability. You kindle a vital flame in your target’s heart, reviving them. If your target had the Primed status effect prior to their death, you kill them at the end of the Day after this ability was used. Furthermore, if you die after using this ability and the player you revived using this ability is still alive, your gifted fire dies and so do they.
(Auto) Sickly: If you receive the Poisoned status effect, you die immediately.
ToonyMan's body was whole, but his eyes were empty. His soul had left without its sustenance.
ToonyMan was Town.
Quote
Vengeful Roleblocker (town):
(Auto) Vengeful Roleblocker: When you are executed during the Day, during the following Night you may choose one player to haunt, which blocks their Night action (if they attempted any). They will be told that they were roleblocked if this does occur.
Roden chuckled. "Well that was lucky. Let's get out of here before those WUBA-Inc people figure out how the game ended."
NJW2000 poured some oil into the hotel doors' hinges. Carefully, with a smuggled crowbar, he leveraged the looseness of the hinges and tugged.
The doors came off.
But there was nothing outside. Only void.
Soft cracking came from behind them. Then every clock in the hotel shattered at once. Time snapped back for the final time.
Round 4 has ended! Mafia won, and as such, NJW2000 and Roden both gain 1 Victory Point.
The demon was awake.
The next Round shall begin
Or, to summarize: of course a revive wasn't going to come with no strings attached. I'll post the Round summary in a bit.
Post by: TricMagic on November 16, 2021, 12:35:51 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 12:41:47 pm
I was utterly convinced there was one (and only one) mafia between NJW and Web after Tric flipped town on D1. It came down to a misread there.
Secondly, Roden was one vote away from being lynched on D2, however various reasons meant Vector hammered me instead.
Lastly, Max and Jack were 99% town after Webadict flipped town on D3, so if a 5p lylo actually happened (if I knew I would only be alive for one day, or if Max wasn't frail to poison, for example) it would have been over.
EDIT:
I had a really motivational opener for the 5p lylo too...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: webadict on November 16, 2021, 12:56:03 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 16, 2021, 12:58:15 pm
Please note we'll be switching to Discord for any private chats needed for Round 5, as Quicktopic is approaching its end. I'd suggest getting ready to use Discord if you haven't already done so.
Quote
EuchreJack:
Inspector (town):
(Night) Inspect [target]: You check your target’s surroundings for clues related to disturbances, and learn whether or not your target was targeted by any action tonight.
TricMagic:
Sandwich Vendor (town):
(Night) Distribute [target]: You give your target a sandwich. They are informed that they received a sandwich during the Night.
Vector:
2-Shot Poison Doctor (town):
(2-Shot, Night) Antidote [target]: You administer a poison-antidote injection, preventing your target from receiving the Poisoned status effect this Night. You only have two antidotes to use, however.
ToonyMan:
Vengeful Roleblocker (town):
(Auto) Vengeful Roleblocker: When you are executed during the Day, during the following Night you may choose one player to haunt, which blocks their Night action (if they attempted any). They will be told that they were roleblocked if this does occur.
webadict:
Investigative Student (town):
(Night) Prodigious Study [target]: You study your target in action. If they possess an investigative ability, you gain a permanent copy of that ability if you do not already have a copy of that ability. If they possess multiple investigative abilities, you only copy one of them (selected at random). Investigative abilities are abilities that return informative results after being used.
Maximum Spin:
Sickly Arsonist JOAT (town):
(1-Shot, Night) Healing Flames [target]: You cast a spiritual flame on your target, preventing them from being afflicted by the Poisoned status effect this Night. You kill your target if they have the Primed status effect.
(1-Shot, Night) Ember Tracking [target]: You use embers to scorch runes into the floor, and read them to determine who your target visits this Night. You kill your target if they have the Primed status effect.
(1-Shot, Night) Fire of Life [target]: You can only target dead players with this ability. You kindle a vital flame in your target’s heart, reviving them. If your target had the Primed status effect prior to their death, you kill them at the end of the Day after this ability was used. Furthermore, if you die after using this ability and the player you revived using this ability is still alive, your gifted fire dies and so do they.
(Auto) Sickly: If you receive the Poisoned status effect, you die immediately.
Roden:
Delayer (mafia):
(Night) Delay [target]: You distort time, temporally shifting the target player’s action this Night (if any) to the following Night. They are given an ‘action failed’ result if they acted, then the following Night, they perform their displaced action. They will not perform their action if they are dead when they would perform it.
NJW2000:
Priming True Voyeur (mafia)
(Night) True Voyeur [target]: You learn the full text of any abilities used on your target this Night, pulling knowledge from the weave of the past using psychometric oils.
(Auto) Priming: When performing a Night action, you may choose to give the player or players you target the Primed status effect using your oils. (Players who are Primed are not aware that they are Primed.)
(Factional, Night) Poison [target]: You flood your target’s room with poisonous gas, causing them to become Poisoned. They will die at the end of the following Day, after that Day’s execution. They will be aware that they are Poisoned and what their death condition is.
Spoiler: Actions (click to show/hide)
I'm out, I'd rather play Totem.
Noted. My apologies for the bad experience.
To be clear, the final Day was entirely winnable for Town. Executing a mafia member would have led to Vector dying anyways of course, but then you'd have 4 Town 1 Mafia. Even if that remaining mafia player poisoned Max anyways, you would have headed into a 3p LYLO.
Post by: TricMagic on November 16, 2021, 01:02:59 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 01:08:56 pm
And yes, the Delayer was Mafia.Congratulations.
Post by: Vector on November 16, 2021, 01:36:05 pm
Post by: webadict on November 16, 2021, 01:46:22 pm
I didn't have a bad experience. I did what I could. I just want to play Totem, and I can't play two games at once.I'm out, I'd rather play Totem.
Noted. My apologies for the bad experience.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 01:54:03 pm
Good job NJW2000, your consistent play as both mafia and town deserves you the win.
Some townies in this round did well. Some townies did poorly. I think you know who you are, so I'll leave it at that.
Roden, good job as mafia this round, good job as town in previous rounds. You've earned your second place. Dunno if you are sharing it with others, or if you alone are second place.
LOL, mafia never had the igniter.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 02:07:28 pm
LOL, mafia never had the igniter.Yes, this is one of the reasons why Max was always town. I couldn't understand why Web would specifically target Max on N2 after learning Max had the igniter. It was the perfect frame job on himself. NJW of course brings this up and I caught it immediately since it's suspicious. NJW claiming their own prime was very smart as it implicated Vector if there was a situation where NJW was lynched first and Vector was still around.
EDIT:
Vector protecting NJW from poison the one night mafia choose not to poison is just...sigh...that definitely factored into my head of choosing between NJW and Web on D2.
Post by: TricMagic on November 16, 2021, 02:16:41 pm
Well, Totem comes first, then we go to the next one of this. So no worries there.I didn't have a bad experience. I did what I could. I just want to play Totem, and I can't play two games at once.I'm out, I'd rather play Totem.
Noted. My apologies for the bad experience.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 02:22:47 pm
Oh right, and yeah this setup seemed pretty good. Two mafia was spot on, and they were clearly the ones priming and poisoning people. Town were allowed to mislynch 3 times before losing which is actually a bit generous.
Post by: webadict on November 16, 2021, 02:28:14 pm
This is naturally evident by you literally making teams with everyone, including Max. You honestly would have discounted it, so it is silly to try to justify otherwise.
You looked like scum on D2, and you were never going to accept that, so you tunneled. My only hope was every other Townie voting with me on D3. I almost had that.
It was obvious Euchre was Town because he asked Vector if you were Mafia on Day 2. That was such a Town!Euchre play that it was impossible for me to ever vote Euchre.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 02:35:18 pm
It was obvious Euchre was Town because he asked Vector if you were Mafia on Day 2. That was such a Town!Euchre play that it was impossible for me to ever vote Euchre.Fair point, I didn't notice that.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 02:42:13 pm
It was obvious Euchre was Town because he asked Vector if you were Mafia on Day 2. That was such a Town!Euchre play that it was impossible for me to ever vote Euchre.Fair point, I didn't notice that.
Uh, could someone explain that a bit further?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 02:45:08 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 02:48:50 pm
I wish I wasn't lying about being a regular Vengeful Townie. I was targeting Roden N2 regardless which means he would have died instead of merely being roleblocked.
You won't be learning anything from Round 4, will you?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 03:00:48 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 03:14:26 pm
I've learned that being mad doesn't help at all. And my moments of clarity were when I listened to Jack because he was nice to me.
LOL. That totally won't backfire on you when I roll mafia...
Post by: webadict on November 16, 2021, 03:15:23 pm
You're right, I don't think I would have changed my mind on D3, no. Maybe if you didn't make me feel miserable on D2 for doubting you over NJW I would have been more considerate, and I don't know how to say that any way else.Fair. A lot of that was because you continued to put me on Mafia teams (other than NJW2000/me, which would've been the only combination that makes sense) when my ability and target were readily confirmed by NJW2000 (and were also very Townie in nature). I would not have been able to vote for NJW on D2 at all, but I would've potentially jumped to Roden or Max. My tunnel on Day 2 focused a lot on you still trying to incriminate me in spite of the massive evidence for me being Town. Silly, yes, but it is a move you pull while scum.
I think the only way to convince me would be for me to acknowledge that a Roden/Toony team would never have claimed Roden delaying Toony and that a double poison the following Day would've been an instant vote. That was my key missing detail.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 03:19:57 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 03:23:36 pm
In my defense, I was voting Roden as a way to prove I wasn't paired with them. So if we both agreed that Roden was mafia...I know this isn't full-proof since Roden flipping mafia would just make me look like I'm bussing, especially since I was lying about being a killing Vengeful role. I should have been honest about my role, but I wanted to seem more threatening to mafia than I was for reactions.
Actually, lying about your role was one thing I think you did right. Your claim of vengeful was mistimed, however. Maybe should have been D1 or at most very early D2?
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 03:25:00 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 03:26:31 pm
FOU, maybe we can come back here later? Maybe you would like to play some Totem mafia yourself?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 16, 2021, 03:41:01 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 03:43:14 pm
Considering I don't want to get in the way of Meph's game, I think it's fair to say I can delay the Final Round to after Totem Mafia finishes. Sadly I doubt I can join it myself as I have my final college semester to deal with.
But if you're not playing forum mafia, what else can you do during those boring college lectures? :P
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 16, 2021, 03:43:59 pm
Chat on Discord, probablyConsidering I don't want to get in the way of Meph's game, I think it's fair to say I can delay the Final Round to after Totem Mafia finishes. Sadly I doubt I can join it myself as I have my final college semester to deal with.
But if you're not playing forum mafia, what else can you do during those boring college lectures? :P
Post by: webadict on November 16, 2021, 03:46:12 pm
Not lying about your role would've been points for you not just because I was pretty sure you were lying, but I was pretty sure you DID have a death-related role like you claimed D1. I was having trouble justifying what it was scum could have like that because it definitely wasn't Vengeful Townie, but Vengeful Roleblocker would've been a 100% Townie role, and been major credit for you.
Not sure why, but I could tell your roleclaim wasn't truthful... I just had a feeling you were lying to me. I could never use it as justification, but that is why I was more willing to push you on that. My gut feeling was you maybe were a Vengeful Mafioso, with a one-shot kill but only on death. You definitely didn't look like you were lying D1, so I assumed I was gonna be shot at Day end.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 03:55:32 pm
It was the claim on D2 when under scrutiny that made it look like a scum claim that in event of a mislynch could be rectified by the mislynched townie killing their suspected target. Bad timing.
Or maybe Toonyman should have just kept quiet D2? I thought Toonyman was a Bomb or Paranoid Gun Owner, both of which would have been useful fake claims for a town player to hide under. Although if Roden truthfully delayed Toonyman, then Roden knew better on those claims. But the 1-shot vigilante fake claim would have been solid.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 16, 2021, 04:03:44 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on November 16, 2021, 04:31:15 pm
I suspect the main thing that killed Town was the sheer quantity of posts D2 and D3. Too much text crowded out less prolific posters, and sapped people's will to play. This deprived town of input from people like Vector, and probably made scumhunting much harder.
Good job NJW2000, your consistent play as both mafia and town deserves you the win.This is kind of you, but I haven't been that consistent... Round 3 had a pretty huge blunder. I think my not losing thus far has often been due to other players putting their best foot forward when I happened to be on their teams, especially Roden and some of the vets.
If people want to come back to a last round after the Totem game, I'd certainly be down to clown. But it's ok if it ends here.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 04:33:19 pm
Looking at the game, the setup was certainly kinder to mafia than some of the previous rounds. It certainly was close, if not for the Sickly modifier town would probably have won.Nah, even if Max was still alive I was gone and mafia would have endgame'd 2v2.
I suspect the main thing that killed Town was the sheer quantity of posts D2 and D3. Too much text crowded out less prolific posters, and sapped people's will to play. This deprived town of input from people like Vector, and probably made scumhunting much harder.It's true. It made me not want to look at anything besides D1.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 04:48:50 pm
I suspect the main thing that killed Town was the sheer quantity of posts D2 and D3. Too much text crowded out less prolific posters, and sapped people's will to play. This deprived town of input from people like Vector, and probably made scumhunting much harder.
I can certainly take some responsibility there, although I'm unsure how to do better in the future. I'm working on it, maybe?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 16, 2021, 05:18:39 pm
I don't think you'd be gone if I lived, actually. You don't blow up if you're primed afterward, but you died because of the quasi-lovers bond.Looking at the game, the setup was certainly kinder to mafia than some of the previous rounds. It certainly was close, if not for the Sickly modifier town would probably have won.Nah, even if Max was still alive I was gone and mafia would have endgame'd 2v2.
(that's why I said "I'd have loved if you had been told" even though I knew that was way too subtle to convey, just a forlorn hope)
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 05:31:26 pm
Post by: Roden on November 16, 2021, 05:32:16 pm
I'm happy to just announce NJW2000 the winner of our little tournament and move on with our lives. I also have my doubts of my ability/fun to play two games at once.Thanks Jack, but honestly I owe the win to NJW. I freaked out a couple times but he kept me calm even when I lost hope. After the ressurect happened, I genuinely thought we couldn't win it since our kills were slow and it felt impossible to try to trick Max into Igniting our Prime targets for extra kills. I kept expecting to get voted out, especially Day 2, and thought it was inevitable Day 3 until NJW pointed out how worn out and defeated everyone was feeling. He was also very detailed and methodical in the scumchat, which helped to map out our possible choices and keep things organized.
Good job NJW2000, your consistent play as both mafia and town deserves you the win.
Some townies in this round did well. Some townies did poorly. I think you know who you are, so I'll leave it at that.
Roden, good job as mafia this round, good job as town in previous rounds. You've earned your second place. Dunno if you are sharing it with others, or if you alone are second place.
LOL, mafia never had the igniter.
In hindsight I probably could've claimed anything since I never got to effectively use my Delay on anyone, but I think being truthful with almost everything I said helped me survive. The only thing I lied about was that it was impossible for me to be paired with NJW, everything else were genuine thoughts though. I really did think Toony was trying to fake distance with me (which confused me a lot), and I thought it was possible Max could be a surprise mafia ally or 3P Arsonist/weird Arsonist Vig. I know it's silly now but I got paranoid lol.
Here's the scum chat btw: https://www.quicktopic.com/53/H/QH8K2vLFggx
Post by: Roden on November 16, 2021, 05:33:43 pm
Wait shit really, that means if mafia poisoned me instead (since I was confirmed town that is a reasonable expectation) it really would have been a 5p lylo.You'll see in the chat that we did almost Poison you. Our best hope in the end though was to Poison Max and hope he tried to protect you from Poison but accidentally Ignite you as well.
Post by: Roden on November 16, 2021, 05:39:18 pm
I don't think your posts were detrimental, and I actually really appreciated the constant vote counts.I suspect the main thing that killed Town was the sheer quantity of posts D2 and D3. Too much text crowded out less prolific posters, and sapped people's will to play. This deprived town of input from people like Vector, and probably made scumhunting much harder.
I can certainly take some responsibility there, although I'm unsure how to do better in the future. I'm working on it, maybe?
The main thing that allowed NJW and I to hide our associations (or lack there of) was the Toony vs Web slap fight. Doubly so because once Web felt fatigued near the end of Day 3, I was able to attack him a lot more easily.
Post by: webadict on November 16, 2021, 05:47:42 pm
I was also bound by two clocks: NJW waking up and hammering and literal sleep. So I hammered regardless because I could tell everyone was exhausted. No point delaying the inevitable.
If I were scum, I definitely would've spewed earlier or never hammered.
Post by: webadict on November 16, 2021, 06:10:35 pm
Let me explain the issues in this post, since I never got to it.Toony came to the same conclusion Jack did: I am mechanically cleared.Web, wtf are you doing? I can't be solo scum because I was role blocked when a Poison happened, and this isn't a bastard game so we know mafia can't bypass role blocks. Prime turning into Poison isn't a thing that could ever exist because again, this isn't a bastard game, plus it would severely handicap mafia if they had to wait for two days for their NK to actually do anything.^This is the person that ToonyMan says is Town.
Furthermore, I already proved we can't be the scum team. I was role blocked the same night you performed your Study action, which NJW confirmed you have and Max confirmed that you did it successfully. Yet there was still Poison.
It's impossible for me to be solo scum, and the only players I could be paired with are Vector and Jack. And I've already explained that if me and Vector are the mafia team, we already lost since they wouldn't actually die from Poison today and instead get themself killed with the supposed Ignite factional ability. This leaves Jack as my only potential partner that is not only possible, but also doesn't end in an automatic loss for the mafia team. But you town read Jack, so I should be town through PoE.
"But what about Multitasking?"
Then I'm hard confirmed as town because I claimed to Delay Toony Night 1. If I was Multitasking Mafia, I could use my fractional kill and Delay someone, I wouldn't have to fake claim targeting Toony like you accused me of doing.
Preview edit: Guys. It makes it a lot harder to keep up when you hyper post. Give us time to talk.
I cannot be solo scum. I can only be paired with either Jack or Toony, whom you both town read. In the case of Multitasking, I am hard cleared since faking targeting Toony would be pointless due to being free to target whoever I want while also targeting someone with the factional kill. There is no feasible way for me to be mafia.
What is there to dispute?
The first is that your action was unconfirmed on Day 1, a mistake that I don't think you would make. This is minorly suspicious though, as it doesn't really prove anything.
The second is that you specifically left off NJW2000. That... is a really, really weird thing to do. That was majorly suspicious. If you had said that NJW2000 was also not viable, I'd have reduced this to minorly suspicious. NJW2000 was still on my list for having an unconfirmed action N2, but I didn't have solid evidence that he was scum.
The third issue is actually one that was relevant to ToonyMan: You weren't mechanically cleared at all. If I had breathing room to point this out, I would've been able to make a solid case, which I suppose is how ToonyMan felt, but I never got a chance, as I had 3-4 posts half-written before I just decided it was bedtime. This was, again, majorly suspicious, especially because you are hooking ToonyMan into your claim that he literally could not confirm.
The fourth issue is actually fun: You semi-confirmed that Vector was Primed AND Poisoned. This actually reduces the team possibilities to you/NJW2000 as the only viable choice. Slightly above minorly suspicious. Like, 2x minor.
The fifth issue is that you made no guesses about my team. Less than minorly suspicious.
The sixth is the response: "I am hard cleared since faking targeting Toony would be pointless due to being free to target whoever I want while also targeting someone with the factional kill." I was literally claiming that exact this. It is majorly suspicious that you essentially admitted to it. However, it did point out my mistake with the Toony/Roden pairing from D2, which is that you would neverr have claimed to Delay Toony as Toony's partner. He would've coached you to claim something much less obvious.
And that's why I point out your response.
Post by: Roden on November 16, 2021, 07:05:43 pm
The mechanical clear thing was obviously nonsense, but I was partially piggybacking off of Jack there. But also, I never lied about my role or night actions. I even tried to Delay Jack Night 2 even though I knew Toony was going to role block me. I considered Delaying Max to stop the ressurect but NJW disagreed with that decision, so I targeted Jack. That's actually another reason why I pushed so hard that I was mechanically cleared, because I really was telling the truth and almost every single accusation that was made against me was wrong. The only thing anyone got right was that I was Mafia.
Post by: webadict on November 16, 2021, 07:11:32 pm
Post by: Roden on November 16, 2021, 07:14:26 pm
Post by: Superdorf on November 16, 2021, 08:37:16 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2021, 08:50:59 pm
Seeing as things are at a lull, Imma just pop in and say the flavor here has been impressively unsettling… the long-form gameplay really lends a sense of attrition to it all. Very cool!... it's not just a "sense", but a reality.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 16, 2021, 09:16:16 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 16, 2021, 11:27:32 pm
I assume this is how it feels being locked in a death game for 2 months.Two months? How nice. Still doesn't beat Mafia Marathon. You ever just play mafia for a year straight in (technically) one game?
Post by: ToonyMan on November 17, 2021, 12:23:53 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 06, 2022, 03:38:22 pm
Post by: webadict on January 06, 2022, 03:52:12 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on January 06, 2022, 04:09:33 pm
Post by: Vector on January 06, 2022, 04:24:59 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 06, 2022, 04:52:07 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 06, 2022, 09:43:46 pm
Post by: Roden on January 08, 2022, 10:31:59 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 10, 2022, 08:10:49 pm
I need at least 7 players to start, but 9 or more would be preferable.
Current list:
- webadict
- NJW2000
- EuchreJack
- Maximum Spin
- Roden
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 10, 2022, 10:16:39 pm
What's this game's deal? Do I need to know anything going in?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 10, 2022, 10:19:21 pm
I'll try another game. In.Nope
What's this game's deal? Do I need to know anything going in?
Post by: Roden on January 10, 2022, 10:26:25 pm
Post by: webadict on January 10, 2022, 10:33:09 pm
I'll try another game. In.Roles are pseudo-related to mafiascum roles. There's a wiki link on the front page, in case you need to fakeclaim. Other than that... nope, not really.
What's this game's deal? Do I need to know anything going in?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 10, 2022, 11:08:18 pm
I'll try another game. In.Don't read Round 3 or 4 unless you want to see some majorly embarrassing play.
What's this game's deal? Do I need to know anything going in?
I can play Round 5.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 13, 2022, 07:06:06 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 14, 2022, 04:38:45 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 14, 2022, 05:25:44 pm
Post by: webadict on January 14, 2022, 07:23:02 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 14, 2022, 07:27:08 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 14, 2022, 07:32:26 pm
Which of the previous four rounds was the most interesting?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 17, 2022, 02:53:32 am
The demon is breaking free.
Here's to a wonderful Mostly Vanilla experience!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 18, 2022, 04:24:32 am
Round 5 Begins!
There was no more day, though there was still a Day.
There was no more night - the dark was ever-present. There was still a Night.
Reality's seams slowly cracked underneath the oppressive, temporally expanding dark. You could see them more clearly now.
This was no matter of deli sandwiches and hot dog carts. Or perhaps it started as that, but the ritual you all have been unknowingly performing in this place - it has sparked something far worse than a little murder-spat between companies.
Now, you all have endangered the world. If the vile influence you all have awakened is not destroyed -
ALL WILL BE THE END, AS THE SEAL SHATTERS AND TIME'S SPINDLE SHATTERS
One of you sets down the burnt book - a remnant of a long-dead pyromancer's dying light - on the table. It rests next to the lantern that is your main source of illumination. It barely makes this room bright enough to see within.
You all share a breakfast - the only meal of the day. There's still some bread without mold on it, right?
As much as burning your individual candle-rations is tempting, the lantern is doing well enough for now. It only flickers, making your hearts stop, sometimes.
Every clock here has shattered but one. The ritual's final clock counts down towards the end and marks the Days and the Nights now that you can no longer see the sun.
This is the beginning of the end.
The voteboard hovers in front of you all, a flaming menace etched by your willful souls instead of ink or marker.
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (0):
NJW2000 (0):
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
Roden (0):
Jim Groovester (0):
ToonyMan (0):
Magma Mater (0):
Toaster (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (9): webadict, NJW2000, EuchreJack, Maximum Spin, Roden, Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, Magma Mater, Toaster
5 to hammer.
Day 1 has begun, and will end at 2 AM Central/Forum time Thursday, January 20. This is around 48 hours from now and hammers are in full effect. Votes after the deadline will not count.
Good luck.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 18, 2022, 04:50:10 am
Post by: webadict on January 18, 2022, 05:42:42 am
Same question to Jim Groovester. Wow, haven't played with you in forever.
No other questions.
Post by: Roden on January 18, 2022, 05:50:29 am
This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 18, 2022, 06:15:31 am
I believe NJW's claim.This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
@Roden: What is an Unreliable Cop?
I am a Neighborizer. I can set up a private chat with other players. Sorta like unreliable mason I guess?
Post by: webadict on January 18, 2022, 06:51:45 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 18, 2022, 08:14:47 am
EuchreJack, please subscribe me to your mailing list. I do not have a private chat and I want one.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 18, 2022, 08:23:24 am
I am town, and my role is useful, and I am not claiming.At least throw a fakeclaim out.
EuchreJack, please subscribe me to your mailing list. I do not have a private chat and I want one.
I, on the other hand, will claim my 100% real role as Ninja Fruit Vendor.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 18, 2022, 09:22:46 am
ToonyMan, you Town? Are you able to read me yet?Yes. No.
I'm busy at work currently to get anything started, in the meantime I can join the claim gang:
My 100% real role is Inventor, though my goods may be defective...
Post by: Roden on January 18, 2022, 09:51:06 am
Unreliable just means my results have a chance to be wrong. Not invalid, just wrong, and I have no way of knowing if my Cop check is accurate. Since my results don't really matter, I figured I would just full claim now since it would look suspicious if I claimed it later.I believe NJW's claim.This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
@Roden: What is an Unreliable Cop?
I am a Neighborizer. I can set up a private chat with other players. Sorta like unreliable mason I guess?
Post by: NJW2000 on January 18, 2022, 10:04:35 am
Unreliable just means my results have a chance to be wrong. Not invalid, just wrong, and I have no way of knowing if my Cop check is accurate. Since my results don't really matter, I figured I would just full claim now since it would look suspicious if I claimed it later.What chance? (I.e. what percentage?)
I am a Neighborizer. I can set up a private chat with other players. Sorta like unreliable mason I guess?Hm. That sounds like a rather weak role. Is this a day or night action?
Post by: webadict on January 18, 2022, 10:33:04 am
Anyway, I'm gonna vote Magma Mater.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 18, 2022, 12:54:04 pm
Post by: webadict on January 18, 2022, 01:13:11 pm
Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.Okay, let's expound on that. What would I gain by playing dumb?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 18, 2022, 01:17:10 pm
If Euchre is mafia, or if you somehow know his role already, this is a way to distance yourself from that.Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.Okay, let's expound on that. What would I gain by playing dumb?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 18, 2022, 01:29:13 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 18, 2022, 01:34:59 pm
Post by: webadict on January 18, 2022, 03:40:04 pm
That's a very short-sighted goal if I'm Mafia, and also that would imply that I'd be really bad as Mafia. The better answer is that I can use that as a way to see who's okay with claiming their alignment with someone else, but that only applies if you think I'm Town. So, that's not the worst look for you, but it does make it seem as though you don't care about looking for Town, especially since EuchreJack is more like Town than not.If Euchre is mafia, or if you somehow know his role already, this is a way to distance yourself from that.Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.Okay, let's expound on that. What would I gain by playing dumb?
So, I suppose that begs a question: Am I more like Mafia, or is EuchreJack more likely Mafia?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 18, 2022, 05:05:08 pm
@NJW and Roden:
This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.
Why would there be a miller if you're an unreliable cop?This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
I think it's more likely Roden is telling the truth here then NJW unless they're both in on it, although I find Roden believable here. Especially since NJW claimed first and Roden second. I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.
@Jack:
I am a Neighborizer. I can set up a private chat with other players. Sorta like unreliable mason I guess?Sounds true.
@Webadict:
Is this what we're doing? Aight I'm in: I'm a Motion Detector. Or maybe I'm not, who knows?Sounds false.
Anyway, I'm gonna vote Magma Mater.Why?
@Max and Magma:
There's certain roles I could see Max not wanting to share, but also there's certain roles I could see Max not wanting to share if that makes sense. Sometimes you want to paint a target on your back at night...a fakeclaim would avoid the attention all together, why would Max not choose to do that instead? I think this makes Max look good.I am town, and my role is useful, and I am not claiming.At least throw a fakeclaim out.
EuchreJack, please subscribe me to your mailing list. I do not have a private chat and I want one.
I, on the other hand, will claim my 100% real role as Ninja Fruit Vendor.
Even though you mention fakeclaims I think you're telling the truth about your role Magma.
@Jim:
Rejoice! RVS is not meta in this game! Instead it's mass-claiming at the start of D1.
I think this has helped more than hindered, do you agree?
@Toaster:
Thankfully, there's a 0% chance you can get converted in this game.
I think I know your scum tells pretty well now after playing with you in KWN, scared? Want to know what they are?
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 18, 2022, 06:01:06 pm
@Max and Magma:I appreciate the vote of confidence but, I have to admit, I'm not sure I've put as much thought into it as you're implying.There's certain roles I could see Max not wanting to share, but also there's certain roles I could see Max not wanting to share if that makes sense. Sometimes you want to paint a target on your back at night...a fakeclaim would avoid the attention all together, why would Max not choose to do that instead? I think this makes Max look good.I am town, and my role is useful, and I am not claiming.At least throw a fakeclaim out.
EuchreJack, please subscribe me to your mailing list. I do not have a private chat and I want one.
I, on the other hand, will claim my 100% real role as Ninja Fruit Vendor.
Even though you mention fakeclaims I think you're telling the truth about your role Magma.
Post by: Toaster on January 18, 2022, 06:48:38 pm
This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.
Interesting. I am a... Null Miller, I guess? Investigations on me simply don't work; you get a null result. I think that extends past simple cop results.
Toony:
@Toaster:
Thankfully, there's a 0% chance you can get converted in this game.
I think I know your scum tells pretty well now after playing with you in KWN, scared? Want to know what they are?
Good.
You mean past me never loudly stating that I hate cult games? I have a few ideas of my own, but sure, I'm game.
We really doing a mass claim? I'm game, but I'm not doing it willy-nilly like we started out; I think we've already got some things to unpack.
Maximum Spin:
I am town, and my role is useful, and I am not claiming.
EuchreJack, please subscribe me to your mailing list. I do not have a private chat and I want one.
Would you claim a useless role? Do you not think that claiming a useful role is not a claim unto itself?
Toony: (again)
I think it's more likely Roden is telling the truth here then NJW unless they're both in on it, although I find Roden believable here. Especially since NJW claimed first and Roden second. I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.
Why does it have to be either/or?
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 18, 2022, 06:54:49 pm
Would you claim a useless role?It depends on the role. The three clauses were independent.
Quote
Do you not think that claiming a useful role is not a claim unto itself?Not in the sense I mean. Obviously it is a claim of some kind, you put the verb "claiming" right there in it.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 18, 2022, 09:22:33 pm
I suspect this has a typo as the first sentence seems to have form "P although P", so can't really tell which of us you suspect of lying. In any case, the idea that a miller and a unreliable cop couldn't coexist in a FoU game shows a disappointing lack of imagination. Not sure how unreliable Roden is claiming, but if they're essentially just a visitor, the presence of a miller doesn't change the usefulness of their role, while their role does not preclude the presence of a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.Why would there be a miller if you're an unreliable cop?
I think it's more likely Roden is telling the truth here then NJW unless they're both in on it, although I find Roden believable here. Especially since NJW claimed first and Roden second. I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.
tl;dr I didn't catch your read, but there's a faulty dichotomy here.
I haven't read any of the previous games. Is this going to be an issue for me or should I get off my butt and do it?The games are long and frustrating to read, but can offer useful information about someone's meta. Be warned: FoU has some conventions, like people being informed who their abilities actually hit if redirected (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8323049#msg8323049), and the roles are non-standard so can be a bit swingy or odd. It's well worth the chance to play hand-crafted completely new role-heavy mafia variants.
Null-miller claim is interesting... not sure what I think about this. Helpful in building up a picture of this game, I guess.
I'm not going to join a mass-claim, because there are strong reasons not to reveal my role right now.
Post by: webadict on January 18, 2022, 09:29:13 pm
@ToonyMan: What's so false about it? Why you gotta be like that? Who's are these strong players to look out for? Also, pick me someone scummy (that isn't me, plz.)
@Toaster: I don't really buy there being two Millers in a game, why should I believe you?
@Maximum Spin: Honestly, you kinda get a free pass Today, whatcha wanna spend it on?
Ninja@NJW: Uh huh... So, at first, I wasn't on board with what Toony was saying, but I think I change my mind. Why would there be a Miller and an Indecisive Cop?
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 18, 2022, 10:02:20 pm
I'm clearly not focused, but I am sad that Jim is not here. Who will bully me now?
Me.
YOU STINK WOOBA
Anyways I'm a I don't remember the role name but I will be publicly confirmed as town on Day 3.
More in a bit when I finish eating and processing Day 1 so far and drink more beer.
Post by: Toaster on January 18, 2022, 10:20:36 pm
@Toaster: I don't really buy there being two Millers in a game, why should I believe you?
Honestly? Don't much care if you do. I policy-claim Miller in the first post of any game I am one in, and this is... close enough to miller. The word "miller" isn't involved in the role and I'm not sure Miller is even the right way to describe it; probably not. In any case, investigative role actions on me are going to be wasted.
Don't you think free day passes are a bit much to hand out at the beginning of a nine player game? Sure, if there were 15 I can greatly appreciate wanting to pare down the choices, but it's not THAT many right now.
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 18, 2022, 10:30:59 pm
Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.
This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.
My first gut instinct after reading this is to want to lynch you.
It's something about the miller claim but also the lack of other content and the friendly and humorous rapport-building comment.
ToonyMan, you Town? Are you able to read me yet?
Same question to Jim Groovester. Wow, haven't played with you in forever.
Yes I am town. No I am not able to read you.
I'd like to think I could derive some meta clues from Supernatural the one where I got Luckyowl lynched by lying but you are canny and difficult to pin down meta wise. You fooled me in that game after all.
I am also not going to reread Supernatural the one where I got Luckyowl lynched by lying so you're safe there.
This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
That's a fancy way of saying vanilla townie.
Neighborizer sounds like at least one of them tells the other their alignment.
Anyway, I'm gonna vote Magma Mater.
Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.
I am also going to vote for Magma Mater as if I had to make a snap judgment based on less than three full pages of game this is the most suspicious interaction I've seen so far.
Whether webadict has or has not seen a neighbor/neighborizer role before is a weird thing to get contentious about.
@Jim: What is your opinion on the mass claiming?
Town that is freely sharing information is hard to beat town.
@Jim:
Rejoice! RVS is not meta in this game! Instead it's mass-claiming at the start of D1.
I think this has helped more than hindered, do you agree?
I agree. See my point above to EuchreJack.
I'm not going to join a mass-claim, because there are strong reasons not to reveal my role right now.
What would you have on top of Miller in a mostly vanilla mafia game? What could you have on top of Miller in a mostly vanilla mafia game?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 18, 2022, 10:55:46 pm
You mean past me never loudly stating that I hate cult games? I have a few ideas of my own, but sure, I'm game.Fair enough. I did this with NQT (after being mafia with him) and it worked really well, so I will share my list I made if I feel you've struck all the points like he did in Magic Mafia. Unfortunately, I am not masons with 4mask this time so I have no one to share with in private in case of my demise...
Why does it have to be either/or?You're right, that's my mistake. I didn't mean to phrase that as mandatory. If there's mafia inside NJW/Roden then I would vote NJW over Roden currently. Your null miller claim makes this even more interesting though. As now that's two claims I feel that jive against NJW.
@NJW:
In any case, the idea that a miller and a unreliable cop couldn't coexist in a FoU game shows a disappointing lack of imagination. Not sure how unreliable Roden is claiming, but if they're essentially just a visitor, the presence of a miller doesn't change the usefulness of their role, while their role does not preclude the presence of a miller.I would say yes, but Jack has convinced me otherwise.
tl;dr I didn't catch your read, but there's a faulty dichotomy here.
1. At the start of Round 3 of this game Jack said me or you had a high chance of being mafia simply because we were the only ones who "hadn't had the chance yet", this turned out to be true as I was mafia.
2. This left you - NJW - as the only player to not "have the chance" to be mafia. Lo 'n behold you were mafia with Roden in Round 4. This is statistically unlikely. FoU is absolutely playing favorites with the players for setups. This also applies to what roles we receive as players.
3. Jack suspected me because they were a double voter in Totem Mafia 3, after I had claimed I was also a double voter. This was a correct reason to suspect me as I was mafia. I think you can very reasonably read a mod's setup as part of suspecting someone as this was not a FoU ran game, but shows that mods will do this in general.
Points one and two are about picking players for alignments which does not directly translate to my argument, however it's general support for "reading the mod". Point 3 applies directly to our situation here though. It's not a strong vote but I want to start at least somewhat reasonably.
@Webadict:
@ToonyMan: What's so false about it? Why you gotta be like that? Who's are these strong players to look out for? Also, pick me someone scummy (that isn't me, plz.)You always lie about your role.
I think you could make an argument that every player here is strong.
I think NJW is scummy. Though it's hard to find strong behavioral reasons currently besides "I don't like it".
PPE:
Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 18, 2022, 11:13:30 pm
@Maximum Spin: Honestly, you kinda get a free pass Today, whatcha wanna spend it on?Can I exchange it for cash value?
So can somebody answer me whether this is one of those games where town and scum share roles, or is it one of those games where town have unique roles and scum have unique roles?More the former than the latter. Roles don't seem to be particularly alignment-indicative. I take it your role announces itself as town on day 3? Just based on the name, that seems most likely. I'm curious what motivated this claim.
Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 18, 2022, 11:21:28 pm
If I had that role, I would simply not use it. Particularly if there is a motion detector in the game capable of checking you. Alternatively, I'd test Toaster's claim.Unreliable just means my results have a chance to be wrong. Not invalid, just wrong, and I have no way of knowing if my Cop check is accurate. Since my results don't really matter, I figured I would just full claim now since it would look suspicious if I claimed it later.I believe NJW's claim.This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
@Roden: What is an Unreliable Cop?
I am a Neighborizer. I can set up a private chat with other players. Sorta like unreliable mason I guess?
I'm having trouble parsing this. Are you saying that you do know what a neighborizer is, and are just testing the waters to see who'd volunteer to be neighborized? I don't see how that'd really gain you anything useful, as town.That's a very short-sighted goal if I'm Mafia, and also that would imply that I'd be really bad as Mafia. The better answer is that I can use that as a way to see who's okay with claiming their alignment with someone else, but that only applies if you think I'm Town. So, that's not the worst look for you, but it does make it seem as though you don't care about looking for Town, especially since EuchreJack is more like Town than not.If Euchre is mafia, or if you somehow know his role already, this is a way to distance yourself from that.Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.Okay, let's expound on that. What would I gain by playing dumb?
@Max and Magma:Mm, I agree that it makes him look good, although my reasoning is a little different. I like that he openly stated his intent to not claim early on, as opposed to ignoring the massclaim or postponing his response until more people had weighed in.There's certain roles I could see Max not wanting to share, but also there's certain roles I could see Max not wanting to share if that makes sense. Sometimes you want to paint a target on your back at night...a fakeclaim would avoid the attention all together, why would Max not choose to do that instead? I think this makes Max look good.I am town, and my role is useful, and I am not claiming.At least throw a fakeclaim out.
EuchreJack, please subscribe me to your mailing list. I do not have a private chat and I want one.
I, on the other hand, will claim my 100% real role as Ninja Fruit Vendor.
You guess? Your role name should be pretty clear. This wording is suspicious, specifically because if you're mafia then I believe your real role name would be Null Godfather.This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.
Interesting. I am a... Null Miller, I guess? Investigations on me simply don't work; you get a null result. I think that extends past simple cop results.
Webadict:In that case, which word is involved in the role?@Toaster: I don't really buy there being two Millers in a game, why should I believe you?
Honestly? Don't much care if you do. I policy-claim Miller in the first post of any game I am one in, and this is... close enough to miller. The word "miller" isn't involved in the role and I'm not sure Miller is even the right way to describe it; probably not. In any case, investigative role actions on me are going to be wasted.
Don't you think free day passes are a bit much to hand out at the beginning of a nine player game? Sure, if there were 15 I can greatly appreciate wanting to pare down the choices, but it's not THAT many right now.
@Toony & @Jim: I think that NJW is rescinding his miller claim and is instead saying that he has a different role that he'd prefer not to claim at the moment.
Why is that a weird thing to get contentious about?Neighborizer sounds like at least one of them tells the other their alignment.
Anyway, I'm gonna vote Magma Mater.Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.
I am also going to vote for Magma Mater as if I had to make a snap judgment based on less than three full pages of game this is the most suspicious interaction I've seen so far.
Whether webadict has or has not seen a neighbor/neighborizer role before is a weird thing to get contentious about.
To fully explain, the reasons web's "neighbor" post pings me is this:
- It's an inaccurate statement. If he's town and doesn't know what a neighborizer is, why not ask a question instead?
- It looks like it was posted for the sake of being posted. Town doesn't have much to gain by posting that as a statement, if he believes it to be true (nobody asked what a neighborizer is). On the other hand, scum-web might want to look ignorant about Euchre's role for distancing reasons.
- webadict is an experienced player, and neighborizer really is a common role. Obviously, this is speculation on my part, and is probably unfair to webadict, but it is something that I thought about and I'd be lying if I said it's not affecting my read on him.
I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.Do you think that Roden would consider this?
People in this thread be like:
(https://c.tenor.com/22K_DF-JwuEAAAAd/honestly-moira.gif)
Post by: Magma Mater on January 18, 2022, 11:22:38 pm
A scum role that announces itself as town on day three would be hilarious, but bad.@Maximum Spin: Honestly, you kinda get a free pass Today, whatcha wanna spend it on?Can I exchange it for cash value?So can somebody answer me whether this is one of those games where town and scum share roles, or is it one of those games where town have unique roles and scum have unique roles?More the former than the latter. Roles don't seem to be particularly alignment-indicative. I take it your role announces itself as town on day 3? Just based on the name, that seems most likely. I'm curious what motivated this claim.
Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 18, 2022, 11:25:40 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 18, 2022, 11:26:54 pm
Magma Mater, I can't believe you just deployed a reaction gifLOL, I just noticed that like four people had used the word "honestly" so far this game, and I couldn't resist.
Post by: webadict on January 19, 2022, 02:33:12 am
So, let's back this up a bit because I think we can work better in the opposite direction: Who do you think is Town and why?
@ToonyMan: Scandalous. I only lie like 80% of the time.
Although, you are technically right. Technically.
@Jim Groovester: ... I mean... All hail our new Class President again?
@Toaster: I was gonna add something, but I forgot what. Sorry.
Anyway, I'm gonna hold my reads a bit longer.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 19, 2022, 06:58:47 am
Ninja@NJW: Uh huh... So, at first, I wasn't on board with what Toony was saying, but I think I change my mind. Why would there be a Miller and an Indecisive Cop?Why wouldn't there be? The presence of an indecisive cop doesn't mean there's not a real cop, a cop power handed out by an inventor, a mafia ally with alignment investigation, etc. Also, from my role's wording, I'm pretty sure Roden can semi-confirm my miller claim by investigating me and automatically reading mafia, although I'll have to check this with FoU. Ditto the null-miller, if their role is phrased like mine.
Or heck, maybe my miller role is there exclusively to mess with me. Second guessing FoU doesn't always work.
@JimGroovester
Spoiler: replies to Jim (click to show/hide)
@Toony & @Jim: I think that NJW is rescinding his miller claim and is instead saying that he has a different role that he'd prefer not to claim at the moment.Not this. Check the other (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8320924#msg8320924)round's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8326236#msg8326236)roles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8317860#msg8317860): FoU does modifiers.
1. At the start of Round 3 of this game Jack said me or you had a high chance of being mafia simply because we were the only ones who "hadn't had the chance yet", this turned out to be true as I was mafia.I was going to call this apophenia, but 1. and 2. actually suggest I'm not mafia, if you're interested in second-guessing the dice. Which, by the by, I do sincerely think is very, very stupid, I wasn't saying that last round just because I actually was mafia. I'm struggling to parse the last sentence, but applying general mod rules-of-thumb to closed FoU setups is exactly what you shouldn't do.
2. This left you - NJW - as the only player to not "have the chance" to be mafia. Lo 'n behold you were mafia with Roden in Round 4. This is statistically unlikely. FoU is absolutely playing favorites with the players for setups. This also applies to what roles we receive as players.
3. Jack suspected me because they were a double voter in Totem Mafia 3, after I had claimed I was also a double voter. This was a correct reason to suspect me as I was mafia. I think you can very reasonably read a mod's setup as part of suspecting someone as this was not a FoU ran game, but shows that mods will do this in general.
Points one and two are about picking players for alignments which does not directly translate to my argument, however it's general support for "reading the mod". Point 3 applies directly to our situation here though. It's not a strong vote but I want to start at least somewhat reasonably.
Your read on me seems weak. Jim's instinct I can understand, and ditto web's doubts, but you're reaching.
Ugh, that took longer than I wanted. I'll try to post some reads before the 75% mark of D1, nothing's jumped out at me.
Post by: Roden on January 19, 2022, 07:55:27 am
75%, which doesn't sound bad at all, but I wouldn't rely on my check. I just plan to announce my results every Day start to help get conversations going.Unreliable just means my results have a chance to be wrong. Not invalid, just wrong, and I have no way of knowing if my Cop check is accurate. Since my results don't really matter, I figured I would just full claim now since it would look suspicious if I claimed it later.What chance? (I.e. what percentage?)
@Max & NJW & Web: Neighborizer is a night action. It does nothing to confirm roles. Ideally, it would allow me to have confidential communications with someone that is confirmed town. But I'll probably use it Night 1, so it might just let mafia whisper horrible things into my ears.So you're 1-shot then, if I'm reading this correctly? Interesting. Your best move might be to Neighborize whoever you think you can trust the most, and who is also someone you can solve efficiently with.
@NJW and Roden:I believe the Miller claim because there seems to a certain theme with roles each round, and this time it looks like it has to do with obscuring alignment peeks. I wouldn't be surprised if scum had a Janitor of some sort, for instance. But also, mechanically NJW's claim is convincing since he said the Miller part of his role was "auto", which is exactly what my Unreliable passive is labeled as. It's a little angle shooty, but I'm fine with just putting him aside for now.This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.Why would there be a miller if you're an unreliable cop?This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
I think it's more likely Roden is telling the truth here then NJW unless they're both in on it, although I find Roden believable here. Especially since NJW claimed first and Roden second. I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.
I actually did plan on inspecting Toaster tonight. I'm interested to see how my Unreliable passive interacts with his Null passive.If I had that role, I would simply not use it. Particularly if there is a motion detector in the game capable of checking you. Alternatively, I'd test Toaster's claim.Unreliable just means my results have a chance to be wrong. Not invalid, just wrong, and I have no way of knowing if my Cop check is accurate. Since my results don't really matter, I figured I would just full claim now since it would look suspicious if I claimed it later.I believe NJW's claim.This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
@Roden: What is an Unreliable Cop?
I am a Neighborizer. I can set up a private chat with other players. Sorta like unreliable mason I guess?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 09:33:03 am
I don't suspect Magma Mater at this point. While we haven't seen them as Town, we did see them as Mafia and they played quite differently.
@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?
What do you think?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 09:49:52 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 19, 2022, 09:58:55 am
I don't think Roden was thinking about NJW at all when they claimed.
@NJW:
It doesn't seem like Toaster is actually a miller and Roden wants to believe you so I'll be rational here and unvote. I can't really believe a scenario where you're both mafia right now.
@Jack:
Shot down? I was mafia in Round 3 and didn't want to implicate myself with NJW. I truly believe my logic is reasonable, but I've decided it's too weak since Toaster and Roden have added more to the game.
How am I buddying you? I've done nothing to support you this game besides believe your role claim. You weren't actually town in KWN so clearly I don't have a black and white read of you anymore. I'm currently undecided but I will say I like your vote on me over every vote on Magma.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 19, 2022, 10:06:35 am
You never answered me about why you're voting Magma.
Jim is voting Magma as a "snap judgement".
Max is voting Magma because they posted a meme gif.
Post by: webadict on January 19, 2022, 10:19:07 am
ToonyMan is using fringe logic to justify the NJW vote that they themselves shot down in Round 3, somehow invoking my name into the atrocity, and getting all creepy buddy on me.I'm not gonna agree with you on principle, mostly because if I do, Magma Mater might not defend themselves.
I don't suspect Magma Mater at this point. While we haven't seen them as Town, we did see them as Mafia and they played quite differently.
@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?
What do you think?
@Web:Yeah, you're right. I definitely didn't.
You never answered me about why you're voting Magma.
Jim is voting Magma as a "snap judgement".
Max is voting Magma because they posted a meme gif.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 19, 2022, 10:20:53 am
@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?I don't necessarily think anyone needs a private chat, and it would give me something to do. I guess there are other, potentially more useful choices for neighbors, especially if you have a limited number of shots, but on the other hand, it would gain you access to my thoughts without filtering against the possibility of distorting others' play.
What do you think?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:57:56 am
@Jack:Hm, upon a reread, using me would be a better description. I thought your "Sounds True" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345334#msg8345334) regarding me was an inappropriately premature townread, but I had misread it.
Shot down? I was mafia in Round 3 and didn't want to implicate myself with NJW. I truly believe my logic is reasonable, but I've decided it's too weak since Toaster and Roden have added more to the game.
How am I buddying you? I've done nothing to support you this game besides believe your role claim. You weren't actually town in KWN so clearly I don't have a black and white read of you anymore. I'm currently undecided but I will say I like your vote on me over every vote on Magma.
I WAS town in KWN until YOU made me Scum, although I had a side-win condition. So I'd say I was Suburban.
That might be useful, but I've found that you tend to "open up" on Day 2, and I can't invite you to the private chat until Night 1.@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?I don't necessarily think anyone needs a private chat, and it would give me something to do. I guess there are other, potentially more useful choices for neighbors, especially if you have a limited number of shots, but on the other hand, it would gain you access to my thoughts without filtering against the possibility of distorting others' play.
What do you think?
I am limited in slots, any other suggestions either in addition to or instead of yourself?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 12:08:02 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 12:08:38 pm
@Toaster: Would my Neighborizer work on you?
Post by: webadict on January 19, 2022, 12:41:23 pm
I was kinda hoping MM would reply sooner rather than later, so I'm ready to jump on a ToonyMan train if anyone else is, and I can reassess later. Maybe it's because I feel like their claim is too close to Vector's role in Round 3, but they're getting too combative with EJ.
Is that a problem? Whatever. I'll think about it later.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 19, 2022, 01:57:59 pm
Ok, I'm struggling to see a lynch
Post by: NJW2000 on January 19, 2022, 02:38:21 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In summary, Roden, I want to know why you initially claimed your role was useless, but now you're claiming a 75% accurate ability.
Post by: webadict on January 19, 2022, 04:02:19 pm
It feels like you're going on a mechanical basis. Do you agree?
Post by: NJW2000 on January 19, 2022, 04:05:44 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 04:06:03 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 04:08:31 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 04:12:22 pm
I was kinda hoping MM would reply sooner rather than later, so I'm ready to jump on a ToonyMan train if anyone else is, and I can reassess later. Maybe it's because I feel like their claim is too close to Vector's role in Round 3, but they're getting too combative with EJ.
@Web: Oh, you mean Vector's inventor in Round 3 is Toonyman's claim this time. Now that you mention it, ToonyMan should be able to confirm that much on Night 1. Plus Toonyman can't kill anyone because they HAVE to confirm their inventor on Night 1.
For the record, I think Toonyman is Not Combative enough with me. But Unvote due to above.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 19, 2022, 04:14:11 pm
Of course, we could ask, is Roden/NJW likely on meta terms? Well... honestly, maybe? I can imagine a "now do it again" setup like that. That said, I think it probably shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's mind right now.
The important thing I wanted to convey, though, is this: If we all agree to treat Roden's results as unreliable, then its value as a fakeclaim is ruined. Therefore, I am going to commit to ignoring them.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 04:20:16 pm
Since probably either NJW or Toaster is scum, and I'll bet on Toaster as the liar. Or maybe I'm being played by Toonyman.
Give me two options with my logic, and point at one so that I'll go with the other?
Still, I think Toaster is the scum because:
1) NJW plainly stated that he was a Miller. This drew suspicion as it could be a mafia gambit, but is the Townie thing to do if true.
Besides, isn't Good Mafia play to AVOID suspicion?
2) Toaster sorta fumbled with his claim. Like he didn't want to say too much about it. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question as to whether or not my Neighborizer would work on them.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 19, 2022, 04:40:58 pm
@Web:
You never answered me about why you're voting Magma.
Yeah, you're right. I definitely didn't.Wow, cool.
I was kinda hoping MM would reply sooner rather than later, so I'm ready to jump on a ToonyMan train if anyone else is, and I can reassess later. Maybe it's because I feel like their claim is too close to Vector's role in Round 3, but they're getting too combative with EJ.Is this bait? You vote Magma for no reason and then noncommital vote me for bad reasons. This is very opportunistic.
Is that a problem? Whatever. I'll think about it later.
Where is the town clearing Webadict of D1? Who's town?
@Jack:
I WAS town in KWN until YOU made me Scum, although I had a side-win condition. So I'd say I was Suburban.Oh, I thought Mechromancer was third-party. My bad then.
@NJW:
Readslist, as much to help me as for other people.I mostly agree with your reads, although I'm more null on Jim and believe Roden more.
My reads:
Town
Max - I feel good about their opening posts, have talked about it earlier
Magma - I think they're getting too much hate from more suspicious players (e.g. Webadict, Jim)
Roden - I believe their opening claim, and it feels like they're very willing to help.
Townlean
Jack - I think they're being honest which makes me want to town lean them, I don't believe mafia!Jack would vote me like they did
Null
Jim Groovester - null, I've seen Jim play exactly like this as not-town. their claims makes me want to townlean them more since it's super ballsy for mafia!Jim...
Scummy, willing to vote
NJW2000 - I have nothing solid but I don't like their behavior, although I think if Toaster is mafia then they're clean
Toaster - can't read, I believed their null miller claim countered NJW's, but that doesn't seem to be the case? I feel like they don't want to take strong stances but they haven't flagged all the scumtells on my secret list
webadict - no strong presence, I think both their votes have been really bad, what's up my guy?
PPE:
Since probably either NJW or Toaster is scumYeah, I agree this is possible.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 19, 2022, 05:05:31 pm
Now that you mention it, ToonyMan should be able to confirm that much on Night 1. Plus Toonyman can't kill anyone because they HAVE to confirm their inventor on Night 1.Yep, that's the plan.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 05:48:22 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 05:51:07 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 05:55:47 pm
In the one game where Magma was mafia (Newbie Mafia), Magma was town read the entire game.
In this one, Magma seems to have stirred up a hornets nest.
Ergo, not meta for mafia!Magma, although I would expect new strategies for new games.
It is enough that I would at least like to see the lynch of Magma re-evaluated.
Post by: webadict on January 19, 2022, 06:36:41 pm
@NJW: Fair enough.
@Toony: Fiiine. I voted Magma initially because intuition. They seemed like a good person to pressure, and it would facilitate discussion because we only have 48 hours to decide, which is hella short. If anything, I was worried we'd get to the deadline without much being discussed, and I'm glad we have something.
Overall, I disagree with your assertions, and I think you're stretching a bit to try to make me scum. I kinda want to keep voting you, so I probably will, but I am unlikely to be able to justify voting you over someone else on Day 1.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 19, 2022, 06:43:35 pm
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (1): ToonyMan
NJW2000 (0):
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
Roden (1): NJW2000
Jim Groovester (0):
ToonyMan (1): webadict
Magma Mater (2): Jim Groovester, Maximum Spin
Toaster (1): EuchreJack
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (3): Roden, Magma Mater, Toaster
5 to hammer.
The Day was nearing its conclusion, but despite the many arguments, no consensus was forming. The lantern lighting the room flickered, causing a spasm of frightened movements among the many gathered.
The execution pit's spikes gleamed. Someone was going to die here. Their life would feed the fell ritual. Their death would feed the void.
Day 1 will end at 2 AM, Central/Forum time Thursday. This is approximately 8 hours from now - votes after the deadline will not count.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 19, 2022, 08:31:37 pm
Regarding why Magma isn't looking like mafia!Magma:I agree, I think this reasoning is correct.
In the one game where Magma was mafia (Newbie Mafia), Magma was town read the entire game.
In this one, Magma seems to have stirred up a hornets nest.
Ergo, not meta for mafia!Magma, although I would expect new strategies for new games.
It is enough that I would at least like to see the lynch of Magma re-evaluated.
@Webadict:
Overall, I disagree with your assertions, and I think you're stretching a bit to try to make me scum. I kinda want to keep voting you, so I probably will, but I am unlikely to be able to justify voting you over someone else on Day 1.Like who?
It's very unlikely I'll be awake for Day end. Every player needs to be voting soon with reasons why. Out of players currently being voted I'm not okay with Magma, but I'm okay with Toaster or Webadict.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 19, 2022, 08:33:37 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 19, 2022, 08:33:55 pm
@Magma Mater: I think this is a silly argument, and I think you think this is a silly argument, and I think you're going to do better focusing on something or someone else. I am Town here, and even if I was lying about knowing what the role does based on name alone (which I'm not because I was aware of a role by the name of Friendly Neighbor who says their alignment to a target each Night), the only real benefit for me as scum is that I am activelurking. I don't really even see a benefit for EuchreJack. It's just a flimsy argument.It's only become a silly argument because you've chosen to argue with me. You've chosen to make assumptions about what kind of information I'm hoping to gain by asking the questions, and you've chosen to be obtuse instead of simply answering my questions. Dodging questions only makes you more difficult to read.
So, let's back this up a bit because I think we can work better in the opposite direction: Who do you think is Town and why?
With regard to your reasons for thinking my questions / comments are silly / flimsy, I've learned that scum don't always act logically, and they don't always think thoroughly about what they post. What they do do is try to post things that they think will make them look town, even if those things don't always make sense. What I saw in your post is an attempt to participate in the contemporary discussion using statement that didn't quite click to me.
Anyway, what you've said about Friendly Neighbor makes sense and clears up the issue for me, thank you for explaining that.
Now I'm going to be entirely hypocritical and neglect to answer your question about who I think is town, since it isn't really beneficial to reveal those at this time. My reasons are pretty much mech-based so it wouldn't give you any insight into my alignment anyway.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 19, 2022, 08:36:19 pm
As things stand, I want a Roden elim, but it seems nobody else does. I don't want a magma elim particularly, although I'm not dead set against it as I don't have any really hard scumreads and I don't expect to be strong enough to read magma immediately. So I'm stuck between Toaster and Webadict. I'm going to trust my gut on Toony, although I'm feeling shakier about that. I don't want a no-lynch, for a couple of reasons.
I believe Toaster's null-claim... there does seem to be a weird theme this game, and falseclaiming a confirmable investigation-blocker against an unreliable cop would be insanity. On the other hand, I don't think it clears them... I've BEEN ascetic scum, for example. NAI.
I know I always complain about there being too much in each day, but I do feel like I don't have enough information from people this time. On the basis of a number of very weak factors, such as our not having seen much input from them, Toaster.
Edit: Ninja'd twice by Toony... doesn't really help or change the above. Sorry if new stuff comes to light and my vote stays on Toaster when it shouldn't, but I'd be in the wrong end of the small hours if I were up then.
Post by: Roden on January 19, 2022, 08:47:54 pm
Readslist, as much to help me as for other people.Because it is useless, or at least I believed it was. A 25% chance of misclearing mafia or miscondemning town isn't a chance I'm willing to take. However, now I'm starting to think this set up is less power heavy and instead more of a puzzle, and that my role can help solve that puzzle. It's why I want to inspect Toaster tonight, I'm probably the best choice for confirming their role.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In summary, Roden, I want to know why you initially claimed your role was useless, but now you're claiming a 75% accurate ability.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 19, 2022, 09:06:16 pm
The previous rounds used roles with 'auto' abilities. The mafia team also undoubtedly has 'auto' abilities. I wouldn't town read him for that.@NJW and Roden:I believe the Miller claim because there seems to a certain theme with roles each round, and this time it looks like it has to do with obscuring alignment peeks. I wouldn't be surprised if scum had a Janitor of some sort, for instance. But also, mechanically NJW's claim is convincing since he said the Miller part of his role was "auto", which is exactly what my Unreliable passive is labeled as. It's a little angle shooty, but I'm fine with just putting him aside for now.This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.Why would there be a miller if you're an unreliable cop?This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
I think it's more likely Roden is telling the truth here then NJW unless they're both in on it, although I find Roden believable here. Especially since NJW claimed first and Roden second. I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.
ToonyMan is using fringe logic to justify the NJW vote that they themselves shot down in Round 3, somehow invoking my name into the atrocity, and getting all creepy buddy on me.Can you quantify this? How am I playing differently?
I don't suspect Magma Mater at this point. While we haven't seen them as Town, we did see them as Mafia and they played quite differently.
@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?
What do you think?
I see your response regarding others' reactions to me. I don't think that's good enough to justify the read, since there are different people in this game, it could be them and not me. Why do you think I've received votes this time and why do you think I didn't receive them last time?
Yeah, I think I'll just say EJ is probs Town and call it a day.Why is EJ town? I'm assuming it's meta-related... I obviously wasn't trying to read him in the other game we played together, so I don't know his tells, if he has any.
I was kinda hoping MM would reply sooner rather than later, so I'm ready to jump on a ToonyMan train if anyone else is, and I can reassess later. Maybe it's because I feel like their claim is too close to Vector's role in Round 3, but they're getting too combative with EJ.
Is that a problem? Whatever. I'll think about it later.
Readslist, as much to help me as for other people.Hm, this is nitpicky. 75% chance is pretty useless. I also don't like the fact that you haven't given play-related reasons for voting him, other than "tone and post content" a couple posts down. Can you expand on how his tone and content make you scumread him?
Roden: went from "my role is useless" to "75% cop", which are two completely different things. Rather dubious. Otherwise constructive. I'm quite conflicted here, but this is making me think scum. Given the picture of the game I'm building up based on roles, I'm not as scared of ML'ing a cop as I would normally be, especially not a 75% one, so I can see voting Roden as a good idea.
[/spoiler]
In summary, Roden, I want to know why you initially claimed your role was useless, but now you're claiming a 75% accurate ability.
I'll be back in a couple hours.
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 19, 2022, 09:09:07 pm
Day 1 will end at 2 AM, Central/Forum time Thursday. This is approximately 8 hours from now - votes after the deadline will not count.
Holy moley these days are fast.
I'll try to get something up quickly but this means I'm not going to do much agonizing over my decisions.
I'm also preoccupied with a bunch of work related stuff.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 09:48:13 pm
ToonyMan is using fringe logic to justify the NJW vote that they themselves shot down in Round 3, somehow invoking my name into the atrocity, and getting all creepy buddy on me.Can you quantify this? How am I playing differently?
I don't suspect Magma Mater at this point. While we haven't seen them as Town, we did see them as Mafia and they played quite differently.
@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?
What do you think?
I see your response regarding others' reactions to me. I don't think that's good enough to justify the read, since there are different people in this game, it could be them and not me. Why do you think I've received votes this time and why do you think I didn't receive them last time?
Last time, you were engaging in more mechanical discussion and not interrogating players as you are now.
I think your votes this time are due to bandwagoning. Previously, you were focused on looking town, and were successful at that.
Now, you know that you are town, so you're not worrying about how you look. Its actually easier to be non-offensive if you don't have to scumhunt.
One thing to consider: There is probably one town player that voted you to see who else would vote you, and there is probably one mafia that voted you to see if they could get you lynched or even hammered. How high did your vote count get, and how many were needed for hammer?
Post by: webadict on January 19, 2022, 09:49:28 pm
I'm still down for Magma Mater, if only because I am too lazy to go after Toony. I kinda apologize, but I'm literally without a computer for a while.
@Magma Mater: Euchre is Town because he feels Town. Yeah, I know, that's not exactly a fair answer, but his claim feels too odd to be scum, and he's not really playing as scum.
I think not answering the Town question is entirely detrimental to yourself and no one else.
@Toony or whatever, blah blah blah.
Readslist:
EuchreJack - Town. Claimed Neighborizer, which is pretfy much automatic points. Clakmed second, so I guess more points.
Toaster - Slight Town. No reason to claim Null Miller. Like, no reason. Bullseyes arw bad.
Roden - Townleanish? Wtf is a 75% Cop, and why does it exiat?
Jim Groovester - Null? I guess? He needs to talk more. I like his clai. though, if he came up with that as scum, that's a fucking pat on the back, he kinda deserves to win. You know what, nah, he can be Town, too. It's a stupid fucking lie, which is why it's brilliant.
NJW - Slight scum. Which is sorta a shift from earlier because the Miller claim was super Townie. Only two people ha e fkaceclai.ed Miller, wow, that fucking typo is so bad I'm keeping it. Fakeclaimed. But I usually think its NJW, so par fod the course, I guess.
Magma Mater - I honestly kinda forgot why Magma was scummy. I shluld reread, but I'm really tired. I remember disliking so.ething in the beginning? I also don't like his poking me for my stuff and not giving reads. Would Town!Magma do this? Euchre thinks so, but Euchre has weird reads sometimes. Hm.
ToonyMan - Slightscjm. I don't feel positive about ToonyMan, but I also think I'm biased because he's been scum 3 games in a row, but I'm also biased against the idea as well for the same reason. Maybe I should stop kicking hornets nests all fucking day for a game and see how that goes? Maybe.
Who's the last person in the game, omfg?
Omg, it's Maximum Spin, yeah, I gave him a free pass for not claiming. Gutsy. I like it. I think Maximum Spin tells the truth regardless of alignment, so he probably does have a powerful role. How powerful? Oh man, who knows? There's just absutely noway to know!
Anyway, I'm about to pass out, so I apologize, but let's not last minute vote, plz?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 10:00:42 pm
Toaster is semi-cleared because I don't think both Toonyman and Web are scum, and both are convinced Toaster is town.
@Magma: How much experience do you have with forum mafia? We played a Newbie game together, but that was some time ago. Still new by this forum's status, but you might be playing other places as well?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 19, 2022, 11:15:43 pm
75% cop would be a fantastic scum claim, but only if people agree that it isn't useless - then you can lead town to mislynch *and get away with it*. Claiming it would be useless would have to be an exercise in reverse psychology. On that basis, the logical scumpartner for Roden would be NJW - Roden to call it useless and NJW to convince everyone that it's good enough to go on.If Roden becomes confirmed town (for example, by dying), how do you plan on treating his results?
Of course, we could ask, is Roden/NJW likely on meta terms? Well... honestly, maybe? I can imagine a "now do it again" setup like that. That said, I think it probably shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's mind right now.
The important thing I wanted to convey, though, is this: If we all agree to treat Roden's results as unreliable, then its value as a fakeclaim is ruined. Therefore, I am going to commit to ignoring them.
Lynch the unreadable Toaster then.What do you think the chances are that NJW and Toaster are both town? And I believe the things you said about NJW also apply to Toaster, no? Wouldn't claiming Miller after someone else had already claimed Miller be a bad idea as mafia?
Since probably either NJW or Toaster is scum, and I'll bet on Toaster as the liar. Or maybe I'm being played by Toonyman.
Give me two options with my logic, and point at one so that I'll go with the other?
Still, I think Toaster is the scum because:
1) NJW plainly stated that he was a Miller. This drew suspicion as it could be a mafia gambit, but is the Townie thing to do if true.
Besides, isn't Good Mafia play to AVOID suspicion?
2) Toaster sorta fumbled with his claim. Like he didn't want to say too much about it. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question as to whether or not my Neighborizer would work on them.
As things stand, I want a Roden elim, but it seems nobody else does. I don't want a magma elim particularly, although I'm not dead set against it as I don't have any really hard scumreads and I don't expect to be strong enough to read magma immediately. So I'm stuck between Toaster and Webadict. I'm going to trust my gut on Toony, although I'm feeling shakier about that. I don't want a no-lynch, for a couple of reasons.Your reads don't mesh very well.
I believe Toaster's null-claim... there does seem to be a weird theme this game, and falseclaiming a confirmable investigation-blocker against an unreliable cop would be insanity. On the other hand, I don't think it clears them... I've BEEN ascetic scum, for example. NAI.
I know I always complain about there being too much in each day, but I do feel like I don't have enough information from people this time. On the basis of a number of very weak factors, such as our not having seen much input from them, Toaster.
Edit: Ninja'd twice by Toony... doesn't really help or change the above. Sorry if new stuff comes to light and my vote stays on Toaster when it shouldn't, but I'd be in the wrong end of the small hours if I were up then.
- Why do you want a Roden elim, wouldn't your role imply the presence of a cop?
- Do you think it's impossible for both Roden and Toaster to be scum together?
- You seem to imply that Roden is mafia in the first paragraph, then imply that he's town in the second (with "against an unreliable cop").
Hm, can you give me an example of where you think I'm focusing on scumhunting?ToonyMan is using fringe logic to justify the NJW vote that they themselves shot down in Round 3, somehow invoking my name into the atrocity, and getting all creepy buddy on me.Can you quantify this? How am I playing differently?
I don't suspect Magma Mater at this point. While we haven't seen them as Town, we did see them as Mafia and they played quite differently.
@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?
What do you think?
I see your response regarding others' reactions to me. I don't think that's good enough to justify the read, since there are different people in this game, it could be them and not me. Why do you think I've received votes this time and why do you think I didn't receive them last time?
Last time, you were engaging in more mechanical discussion and not interrogating players as you are now.
I think your votes this time are due to bandwagoning. Previously, you were focused on looking town, and were successful at that.
Now, you know that you are town, so you're not worrying about how you look. Its actually easier to be non-offensive if you don't have to scumhunt.
One thing to consider: There is probably one town player that voted you to see who else would vote you, and there is probably one mafia that voted you to see if they could get you lynched or even hammered. How high did your vote count get, and how many were needed for hammer?
I got to 3 votes, with 5 to hammer. Max's vote looked the worst both because it was the third on me for a silly reason, and because he hasn't changed it yet. I'd rather not be eliminated d1 in my first town game on this site just because I posted a gif. :D
Can you answer your own questions? Which of the 3 who were on me look the worst to you, if you assume I'm town?
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 19, 2022, 11:18:18 pm
PPE:Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hey man odds are I would've died before Day 3 whether I had claimed or not. At least this way I become attractive for positive and negative night actions.
Points one and two are about picking players for alignments which does not directly translate to my argument, however it's general support for "reading the mod". Point 3 applies directly to our situation here though. It's not a strong vote but I want to start at least somewhat reasonably.
Man I really hope 'reading the mod' isn't part of the analysis for determining town and scum in this game.
I'm curious what motivated this claim.
I think claiming is a more active approach given the role I have compared to not claiming. If people believe me then it focuses night actions in my vicinity since the scum team would want to eliminate the dangerous threat of a confirmed town on Day 3, and town would be wise to this. It gives better odds for town to gather information from the night game.
If I don't claim then to derive benefit from my role I'm banking on surviving to Day 3, which I think is unlikely.
75% cop would be a fantastic scum claim, but only if people agree that it isn't useless - then you can lead town to mislynch *and get away with it*. Claiming it would be useless would have to be an exercise in reverse psychology. On that basis, the logical scumpartner for Roden would be NJW - Roden to call it useless and NJW to convince everyone that it's good enough to go on.
Of course, we could ask, is Roden/NJW likely on meta terms? Well... honestly, maybe? I can imagine a "now do it again" setup like that. That said, I think it probably shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's mind right now.
The important thing I wanted to convey, though, is this: If we all agree to treat Roden's results as unreliable, then its value as a fakeclaim is ruined. Therefore, I am going to commit to ignoring them.
I town read you from this post.
A power role. I have a miller auto and a power role.I'm not going to join a mass-claim, because there are strong reasons not to reveal my role right now.What would you have on top of Miller in a mostly vanilla mafia game? What could you have on top of Miller in a mostly vanilla mafia game?
I don't know if this would be typical for roles for this setup but some role + scum alignment inspect auto sounds pretty fakeclaimy to me.
Yeah, I think I'll just say EJ is probs Town and call it a day.
I was kinda hoping MM would reply sooner rather than later, so I'm ready to jump on a ToonyMan train if anyone else is, and I can reassess later. Maybe it's because I feel like their claim is too close to Vector's role in Round 3, but they're getting too combative with EJ.
Is that a problem? Whatever. I'll think about it later.
I am confounded by these actions.
readslist
I don't hate this readslist.
Regarding why Magma isn't looking like mafia!Magma:
In the one game where Magma was mafia (Newbie Mafia), Magma was town read the entire game.
In this one, Magma seems to have stirred up a hornets nest.
Ergo, not meta for mafia!Magma, although I would expect new strategies for new games.
It is enough that I would at least like to see the lynch of Magma re-evaluated.
This is completely fallacious since the meta read hinges Magma Mater's alignment on other people's reactions to him rather than Magma Mater's actions.
One thing to consider: There is probably one town player that voted you to see who else would vote you, and there is probably one mafia that voted you to see if they could get you lynched or even hammered. How high did your vote count get, and how many were needed for hammer?
Hey this is actually a pretty good question. I'm surprised since I'd normally expect you to ask good questions and make good points none of the time instead of some of the time.
@Jack:Regarding why Magma isn't looking like mafia!Magma:I agree, I think this reasoning is correct.
In the one game where Magma was mafia (Newbie Mafia), Magma was town read the entire game.
In this one, Magma seems to have stirred up a hornets nest.
Ergo, not meta for mafia!Magma, although I would expect new strategies for new games.
It is enough that I would at least like to see the lynch of Magma re-evaluated.
Yeah I don't like you agreeing with this when the reasoning is fallacious.
A scum role that announces itself as town on day three would be hilarious, but bad.
What are you talking about, that would be a fantastic scum role.
Why is that a weird thing to get contentious about?
To fully explain, the reasons web's "neighbor" post pings me is this:
- It's an inaccurate statement. If he's town and doesn't know what a neighborizer is, why not ask a question instead?
- It looks like it was posted for the sake of being posted. Town doesn't have much to gain by posting that as a statement, if he believes it to be true (nobody asked what a neighborizer is). On the other hand, scum-web might want to look ignorant about Euchre's role for distancing reasons.
- webadict is an experienced player, and neighborizer really is a common role. Obviously, this is speculation on my part, and is probably unfair to webadict, but it is something that I thought about and I'd be lying if I said it's not affecting my read on him.
Your points baffle me and I don't care enough to debate them.
I don't believe players play dumb about game concepts in general.
Now I'm going to be entirely hypocritical and neglect to answer your question about who I think is town, since it isn't really beneficial to reveal those at this time. My reasons are pretty much mech-based so it wouldn't give you any insight into my alignment anyway.
No, town reads are very good. Knowing who you do not want to lynch and why is almost as good as knowing who you want to lynch and why. I grade you negatively for withholding that.
I'm comfortable with my vote where it's at. Magma Mater gives me the most unease followed by NJW2000. Maximum Spin feels the most town to me. I'd feel pretty comfortable slotting EuchreJack into the town category as well. Everybody else I read weakly. ToonyMan reads very weakly town and webadict reads very weakly scum. Roden and Toaster are around. I don't hate their claims or what they've done but I'm also not impressed by them so far.
PPE: Magma Mater post: Whatever don't care this post is basically done I'll read it in a second.
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 19, 2022, 11:19:34 pm
I think Roden and Toaster also need to cast theirs.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 19, 2022, 11:22:22 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 19, 2022, 11:25:07 pm
Post by: webadict on January 19, 2022, 11:30:01 pm
Magma Mater dont like beginning. fruit vendor claim with ninja is weird. either magma or i vote maximum spin and rescind my free pass, but that's rude, yo, you don't last minute revoke a free pass, that makes it a... well i cant think of words, but it isnt a free pass.
@ej: nah, i think that's wrong, I though MM was scum because he claimed fruit ninja, like what is that? especially chiding max spin but not really following it up but going after me for the neighbor shit? idk, feels weird.
ppe Unvote fucking let the vores fly, if you decide to randomly kill me, then i actually am a motion detector that counts actions instead of boolean yes no.
ppe2 look at jim go. i wanted to see who was onboard the toony express. sadly, no one bought any tickets. what a sad day.
I'll give Magma Mater some leeway to go at it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 19, 2022, 11:32:41 pm
Rereading a bit and thinking about my vote. Do we need a majority hammer, or does the person with the most votes at deadline die (plurality)?
A majority vote triggers the hammer, immediately executing the person with the majority voting them and ending the Day.
If the Day ends without a majority vote, whoever has the highest number of votes on them is executed. In the event of a tie, nobody is executed.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 19, 2022, 11:34:00 pm
NJW2000
I don't like the vote on Roden, and I don't like the vote on Toaster. I don't think that either make a lot of sense from your PoV if you're town.
Scumreading Roden especially is... you're supposedly a miller, how do you not town-read the cop claim??
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:35:56 pm
Also, long story short, its not a two-way between Toaster and NJW, its most likely a three-way between Roden, Toaster, and NJW where one is scum.
So it is believable that Toaster and NJW are town whereas Roden is scum. It is unlikely all three are town. But you're picking one so good job.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:37:19 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 19, 2022, 11:37:22 pm
Post by: webadict on January 19, 2022, 11:37:49 pm
ninja fruit vendor is a fakeclaim, it's a nonsense role.fucking finally someone gets it
NJW2000
I don't like the vote on Roden, and I don't like the vote on Toaster. I don't think that either make a lot of sense from your PoV if you're town.
Scumreading Roden especially is... you're supposedly a miller, how do you not town-read the cop claim??
NJW2000, someone break the tie, plz
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:38:43 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:40:20 pm
I sorta feel like Jack is a Sheep though.
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 19, 2022, 11:42:44 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:44:24 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 19, 2022, 11:45:47 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:47:27 pm
I don't know what I would say to you privately that I wouldn't say to you publicly.Yeah, radio to you would be a waste I imagine.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:52:47 pm
NJW2000 but mostly just to see who chickens out or hammers.
Actually, that was Hammer. Roden already had a vote on NJW. Damn me, should have counted the votes better and mentioned it was L-1.
I thought my vote was third not fourth.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 19, 2022, 11:53:27 pm
Am I right that deadline is in about an hour? If not, I'm gonna head to bed. Otherwise I think I can stay awake.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 19, 2022, 11:54:31 pm
Really? So the official VC on page 77 is wrong?NJW2000 but mostly just to see who chickens out or hammers.
Actually, that was Hammer. Roden already had a vote on NJW. Damn me, should have counted the votes better and mentioned it was L-1.
I thought my vote was third not fourth.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:55:49 pm
damnit, I read the VC wrong.Really? So the official VC on page 77 is wrong?NJW2000 but mostly just to see who chickens out or hammers.
Actually, that was Hammer. Roden already had a vote on NJW. Damn me, should have counted the votes better and mentioned it was L-1.
I thought my vote was third not fourth.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2022, 11:57:35 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2022, 12:00:24 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 20, 2022, 12:01:14 am
Day 1 will end at 2 AM, Central/Forum time Thursday. This is approximately 8 hours from now - votes after the deadline will not count.
Two hours it looks like.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2022, 12:23:39 am
Question: Could Toonyman and Webadict both be town? I'll say its possible. We had that problem in a previous round.
My point is that it isn't a scenario where only one could be town.
Post by: Roden on January 20, 2022, 12:42:11 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 20, 2022, 12:44:42 am
Who do you suspect? Who do you read as town?
Post by: Roden on January 20, 2022, 01:01:48 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 20, 2022, 01:06:49 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2022, 01:17:06 am
My Day 1's usually suck, sorry. Jim, Toaster, Jack are on my no touch list for today. I don't necessarily scum read Web or Max today, they're null town for me. I generally always want to trust Toony, but tonally he's pinging me as scum. NJW as was described before feels very off. Magma is probably town but I don't have any reason for why besides sheeping Jack since I town read him.
Damn sorry, I accidentally fell asleep but it looks like I woke up before day end. I can at least respond to new posts before day end it looks like.You could Hammer NJW so we could go to bed...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 20, 2022, 01:17:35 am
Either way Central time is what I'm using, even if the forums are an hour ahead of it for some reason, which basically means you have one extra hour before 2 AM. Congrats.
Day is not over, go about your murder business.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2022, 01:28:51 am
Post by: Roden on January 20, 2022, 01:35:52 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 20, 2022, 01:36:10 am
I feel better about Jim. I still think Max and Roden are town. Personally I think Jim comes off as apathetic as mafia, so not only is his claim high roll, but tonally he reads like he's into the game and not trying to sideline.
Jack seems better too honestly. I don't see the point of them trying like this at day end if they're mafia. I think it would be difficult for mafia!Jack to try to be solving genuinely here which is what I'm seeing here. Lots of solving going on.
I feel very dumb for believing Magma's fakeclaim, however I disagree with Jim that you cannot use other player's behavior to gauge someone, but maybe I'm too big brain.
It looks like Webadict is fully phone posting this game based on the terrible typos, this might explain their inability to build a presence? They've at least town cleared people now although I don't feel great about agreeing with their own vote choice.
PPE:
@Jack:
I can't agree to hammer sorry. Maybe if every player was here and we has a general consensus, but not in this situation. Consider my vote on NJW though for most of the reasons I've said this day.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 20, 2022, 01:36:46 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2022, 01:39:02 am
Glad to see both of you commit to voting for maximum info.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 20, 2022, 02:07:48 am
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (1): ToonyMan
NJW2000 (5): Magma Mater, webadict, EuchreJack, Jim Groovester, Roden
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
Roden (0):
Jim Groovester (0):
ToonyMan (0):
Magma Mater (1): Maximum Spin
Toaster (1): NJW2000
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): Toaster
5 to hammer.
One after another, the votes piled up. Each one another marker in the fate of NJW2000. It was agreed. He was too suspicious to live.
Slowly, he was backed towards the execution pit, fear growing.
"No! You don't have to -"
Roden pushed.
The bird found himself unable to fly.
Eight left, the darkness seemed to say.
NJW2000 was Town.
A few coins and trinkets fell from his now-emptied pockets. Scavenged materials. An obol burnt to ash.
Quote
Miller Magpie (town):
(Auto) Miller: Your unusual, birdlike behaviors leave you suspicious. Alignment-investigative abilities return results as if you were mafia aligned.
(Auto) Scavenge: Using your keen instincts for finding useful trinkets and your sharp, adaptive mind, you are able to use the actions of dead players as if they were a part of your own role.
It is now Night 1. Night 1 will end at 1 AM Friday, Central time, or earlier if I receive all needed Night actions. If you can't or won't act, let me know and I can process the Night faster.
Uuuh I can remove these posts if that was hammer
Typically I take a softer approach to post-hammer conversation. If a hammer happens, the immediate conversation can continue, but it should be quickly wrapped up. The hammered person should assume they are dead and not talk, though. The posts can stay.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 21, 2022, 04:36:00 am
A quick headcount revealed eight players. Five of them had executed NJW2000 the previous Day, and now they were stained with guilt.
Surely though, the dead would remain dead. There was nothing for it but to continue on, and hope that the threat lurking in the dark could be defeated.
All you weary survivors have is that hope.
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (0):
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
Roden (0):
Jim Groovester (0):
ToonyMan (0):
Magma Mater (0):
Toaster (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (8): webadict, EuchreJack, Maximum Spin, Roden, Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, Magma Mater, Toaster
5 to hammer.
Day 2 has begun, and will end Sunday, 2 AM, Central time, approximately 48 hours from now.
Post by: Roden on January 21, 2022, 05:43:05 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 21, 2022, 06:51:46 am
I gave an item to Jack, please confirm but don't say what it is though.
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 09:10:17 am
Post by: Toaster on January 21, 2022, 09:46:19 am
Roden:
Toaster, what exactly are you?
I'm going to assume you got Null as expected.
Soooo I totally missed how short days are in this game. That's totally on me and I apologize. I was typing out a post when the hammer fell. I kept it, so consider this my archived D1 thoughts.
Spoiler: Toaster's D1 Post that Never Was (click to show/hide)
Also, I typed a looser more freeform post during N1:
Spoiler: Toaster's N1 Post that he can't post because it's Night (click to show/hide)
TLDR: My readlist as of D1 was Toony and Spin, with Magma and Jim creeping up the list over N1.
Jim: Why was NJW's claim bad and mine unworthy of mention at all?
Maximum Spin: You never did a damned thing with your vote on Magma. Please justify the vote and leaving it there all D1.
Magma Mater: I'm also going to need to see more justification of your vote on NJW. Why was his vote on me bad?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 21, 2022, 09:59:01 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 10:38:38 am
PFP
I gave an item to Jack, please confirm but don't say what it is though.
The package was received from ToonyMan. Now that I have been sufficiently bribed, I feel ToonyMan is Town.
I am also curious who else visited me. Surely they were Good Reasons.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 11:00:58 am
Good morning Maximum Spin. Care to explain why there was no kill last night?I have no idea. Thanks for roleblocking me, though.
Quote
Maximum Spin: You never did a damned thing with your vote on Magma. Please justify the vote and leaving it there all D1.He posted a reaction gif, and that's terrible. Then I went to bed. When I got back to the thread, it was night.
Anyway, EuchreJack has convinced me that he's either town or absolutely stupid, and I don't think he's absolutely stupid. That makes Toaster and [in retrospect, redacted until later] my top picks. Why Toaster? Dropping a roleblock on a guy, choosing to no-kill, and blaming that guy? Sure, I'd do it. Ballsy, but far from implausible, especially if the kills are limited in one way or another.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 11:19:37 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 21, 2022, 12:58:41 pm
I also wrote notes during N1 but they're at home and I won't be there for awhile today. I will post them when I can.
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 01:34:45 pm
I will say it's still not likely to be Toaster, so that makes it Maximum Spin and probably ToonyMan. Roden being Cop still makes sense and Toaster claiming Null Miller makes no fucking sense as scum. Jim is pretty much cleared by virtue of audacity, and EuchreJack is... I don't think it's EJ, but it could be for role related reasons. Additionally, Toaster literally fucking catches Maximum Spin, and ToonyMan jumps to his defense, so this is laughably stupid to think about.
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 01:36:59 pm
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 01:40:12 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 01:44:49 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on January 21, 2022, 02:02:29 pm
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Look at what happened to Max on D2 of Round 3. The game also where you were basically mafia with me. Max is an easy target and you know this.
@Jack:
I can't believe I'm still seeing that 2009 nickname term.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 02:09:41 pm
Toaster claiming Null Miller makes no fucking sense as scum.You misunderstand. Toaster is a mafia quasi-ascetic roleblocker. The claim was probably true. Since he appears to be flavored as some kind of hurricane, it makes sense that nobody could get close enough to investigate him.
Honestly, I would have been willing to believe that Toony was just tunnelling at first, but this is below your level, so you could really be the partner.
I hope I can count on at least one of you to tie that vote. >:|
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 02:16:17 pm
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 02:50:49 pm
Ah, but Toonyman going down the ToonyTunnel means he's town, Web.Euchre, do you absolutely 100% believe Toony is Town? Did you get a gun? I literally can't think of anything else that you could get from Toony that would indicate why you think he's Town. I think you are wrong here. Toony could've actioned you twice.
@Toony: I actually was hoping the Mafia killed Max N1 because he was flaunting his role and it was an easy way to get rid of him because he's unreadable half the time. I was actually wondering if Roden was some type of Mafia meant to throw the Millers off or if Toaster might somehow be scum, but I'm much more confident that Max is lying and Toaster is telling the truth. Either that, or you actually did prime Euchre or something.
@Maximum Spin: Okay, but that still brings attention to Toaster that he doesn't need. If Toaster is scum, why bother? I mean, it makes more sense for you to be going after Roden for bothering to check as a 75% Cop. Actually, that's probably more ToonyMan should be going for that, since that fits his usual Town MO. The issue here is that there wasn't a kill and you were blocked because you did it. I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but that's pretty solid evidence to me.
What you could argue is that since we're at an even number, we could simply go for a No Launch Today, but your retaliation vote seems to indicate that Toaster hit true, and you and ToonyMan weren't expecting a Roleblocker.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 03:05:33 pm
you to be going after Roden for bothering to check as a 75% Cop.What makes you think he did? That wasn't my impression.
Your entire theory of Toaster being town from the beginning has been premised on the assumption that a scum toaster must be lying about the claim. Even here, you say "I'm much more confident that [...] Toaster is telling the truth." But what if he is telling the truth about his role and scum? This is not inconceivable. I mean, you literally just saw me do it in another game.
I'll grant you that I don't have much data on Toaster as a player, maybe he is usually a boat-non-rocker, but I'm never going to accept the theory that someone can't be mafia because of audacity. Audacity is easy.
Anyway, I don't want a No Lynch, I want a lynch of someone who will narrow down the suspect list. I think Toaster is the best lynch candidate.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 03:21:50 pm
We'll start from the beginning:
@Toaster: WHY did you roleblock Max? There were plenty of others you could roleblock, so why Max?
Post by: Roden on January 21, 2022, 03:50:35 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 03:53:10 pm
...Wait, Max, you were Roleblocked? Who did you target? You're implying you targeted Toaster, but I'd like you to confirm that for me first.I am absolutely not implying that, why do you think so?
Post by: Roden on January 21, 2022, 03:55:55 pm
Because you're claiming Toaster Roleblocked you, and you then called him Ascetic....Wait, Max, you were Roleblocked? Who did you target? You're implying you targeted Toaster, but I'd like you to confirm that for me first.I am absolutely not implying that, why do you think so?
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 04:04:10 pm
Because you're claiming Toaster Roleblocked you, and you then called him Ascetic.Oh, no, I suggested he's quasi-Ascetic because he claimed that investigations on him would fail, and also has some action he used to roleblock me (or else how else would he know to blame me for the no-kill?). I think he just has a theme of pushing people away (apparently using storms), like my fire theme last round.
I targeted EuchreJack, for the record, but it ended up not mattering.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 04:06:36 pm
Red text of please answer my questions variety
Post by: Roden on January 21, 2022, 04:15:21 pm
I targeted Toaster last night but was also Roleblocked. I thought he might've been lying and was actually just Ascetic, but you're also claiming that you were Roleblocked. My Unreliable passive can't cause my action to fail either, I was specifically told something else caused it to fail. This is why I asked if you targeted Toaster.
Toaster can still be Ascetic I guess, since I don't know how we both could've been blocked here otherwise. But I'm just not sure why he would lie about his role if he's town. Then again, I'm not sure why anyone would waste their Roleblock on me just to stop me from confirming that Toaster is Null to investigations.
Why did you target Jack, btw?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 04:19:46 pm
Toaster can still be Ascetic I guess, since I don't know how we both could've been blocked here otherwise. But I'm just not sure why he would lie about his role if he's town. Then again, I'm not sure why anyone would waste their Roleblock on me just to stop me from confirming that Toaster is Null to investigations.I thought Toaster was pretty honest about being unreadable from the beginning.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 04:25:13 pm
Why did you target Jack, btw?Jack has asked me not to claim until d3. I just thought it would be useful to do so.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 04:46:24 pm
Why did you target Jack, btw?Jack has asked me not to claim until d3. I just thought it would be useful to do so.
To clarify, I've asked Max not to claim his role. I also told Max to reveal that he targeted me.
The nature of that role should be reserved for after it actually gets used, whatever it might be.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 04:53:46 pm
What I meant was: I just thought it would be useful to target Jack, but I'm not going to explain why because he (in the time since, having given me a radio) asked me not to claim yet. Not that him asking me not to claim retroactively induced my decision to target him, or something. Sorry I didn't express that well.
Post by: Roden on January 21, 2022, 05:23:48 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 21, 2022, 05:35:30 pm
Jim: Why was NJW's claim bad and mine unworthy of mention at all?
I know you always claim Miller. It wasn't remarkable so I didn't comment on it. I commented on NJW2000's miller claim because it felt weird.
Alright, I believe Jack and Max. More so Jack, but I trust Max through Jack right now. I just need to hear from Jim and Magma now.
Hear from me for what?
I fully claimed on Day 1. I have no night action. I got flavor related to my role (I'm frantically searching for my papers that prove my innocence) but nothing related to anything that may have targeted me.
I shouldn't be distracting myself with this game right now. More later, probably in the evening.
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 06:19:01 pm
I grant you that it's entirely possible that Toaster is scum. I don't think this is true, but it's possible. My issue is that Roden was my other suspect, and there just isn't a reason to think that Roden is scum UNLESS Roden and Toaster are a team. But, this doesn't make sense, as Roden is the only known Cop at the moment.you to be going after Roden for bothering to check as a 75% Cop.What makes you think he did? That wasn't my impression.
Your entire theory of Toaster being town from the beginning has been premised on the assumption that a scum toaster must be lying about the claim. Even here, you say "I'm much more confident that [...] Toaster is telling the truth." But what if he is telling the truth about his role and scum? This is not inconceivable. I mean, you literally just saw me do it in another game.
I'll grant you that I don't have much data on Toaster as a player, maybe he is usually a boat-non-rocker, but I'm never going to accept the theory that someone can't be mafia because of audacity. Audacity is easy.
Anyway, I don't want a No Lynch, I want a lynch of someone who will narrow down the suspect list. I think Toaster is the best lynch candidate.
Hm, okay, a lot of this is going to be circumstantial. Bare with me.
There's a Cop and TWO Millers. This is a point against Toaster, which is a fair point. One Miller being Town and one being scum is certainly a situation that could very well exist. However, the claiming of Toaster's Millerness being second is why I'm not sure that there isn't two Town Millers. Maybe there's even a third we don't know about? For now, let's assume that Toaster is scummy from this point.
Ah, you know what? I made a mistake. I actually want to hear from Magma Mater. What did Magma do?
Post by: Toaster on January 21, 2022, 06:47:37 pm
Good morning Maximum Spin. Care to explain why there was no kill last night?I have no idea. Thanks for roleblocking me, though.
You're welcome!
QuoteMaximum Spin: You never did a damned thing with your vote on Magma. Please justify the vote and leaving it there all D1.He posted a reaction gif, and that's terrible. Then I went to bed. When I got back to the thread, it was night.
Anyway, EuchreJack has convinced me that he's either town or absolutely stupid, and I don't think he's absolutely stupid. That makes Toaster and [in retrospect, redacted until later] my top picks. Why Toaster? Dropping a roleblock on a guy, choosing to no-kill, and blaming that guy? Sure, I'd do it. Ballsy, but far from implausible, especially if the kills are limited in one way or another.
I suppose I can't say too much about missing day end (I did the same thing so...) but that's still a fairly trash reason to vote someone. Enough reason to choose to block someone though!
So your vote on my is entirely mechanical? I'll address this in a second when I respond to Toony saying the same thing.
(I also thought NJW was practically obvtown, so why would I want to move my vote? Criticizing me for not joining the bandwagon kind of misses the important point that the bandwagon was wrong.)
Going to need you to quote me where I criticized you for that. I said no such thing.
ToonyMan:
I'm pretty confident that Toaster and Webadict are mafia. I can give detailed reasoning when I'm at a computer. For now, in short Web has been trying to lead bandwagons and get the heat off Toaster. This nokill is a frame job. Toaster is framing Max while also protecting Web.
So you are proposing that Scum!Toaster and friend decided to- in a nine player game- skip the kill N1 in order to frame a townie D2? This gets them a easy lynch in exchange for... heat on Scum!Me all the rest of the game and then a probably no lynch later on to give the town an extra day avoiding MYLO? All this above option B: just kill someone? Is there a gain for this theoretical scum team that I'm just not seeing? It seems like an awfully bad trade for no real reason.
And finally, you consider this likely over the possibility that Maximum Spin tried to kill someone and got blocked by me?
EuchreJack:
Hm, so one item of analysis is WHY did Toaster roleblock Max?
We'll start from the beginning:
@Toaster: WHY did you roleblock Max? There were plenty of others you could roleblock, so why Max?
Good question. Like I said in the spoilered bit of my D2 opener post (the D1 Post That Never Was (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345918#msg8345918)), Toony and Maximum ended the day as my top two suspects. I was going to target Toony, but since he claimed inventor and that's easily provable, I didn't target him.
Everyone else I suspected less.
@Toaster: Did you get any results from your role blocking?
Red text of please answer my questions variety
Just that my action succeeded. I specifically asked Fallacy if I would know if my target tried to action, and he said I would not know either way.
Jim:
Jim: Why was NJW's claim bad and mine unworthy of mention at all?
I know you always claim Miller. It wasn't remarkable so I didn't comment on it. I commented on NJW2000's miller claim because it felt weird.
Hrmph. Fine. I do want your more later.
Roden:
I targeted Toaster last night but was also Roleblocked. I thought he might've been lying and was actually just Ascetic, but you're also claiming that you were Roleblocked. My Unreliable passive can't cause my action to fail either, I was specifically told something else caused it to fail. This is why I asked if you targeted Toaster.
Toaster can still be Ascetic I guess, since I don't know how we both could've been blocked here otherwise. But I'm just not sure why he would lie about his role if he's town. Then again, I'm not sure why anyone would waste their Roleblock on me just to stop me from confirming that Toaster is Null to investigations.
I find this quite interesting. Are you 100% sure you were blocked as opposed to your action just failing? That wasn't me that blocked you. Either someone blocked you or reflected my action?
Does anyone want to claim affecting Roden?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 06:58:13 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 07:03:33 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 21, 2022, 07:03:43 pm
If we treat Max and Toaster as a dichotomy, I'd lean toward Toaster being scum. His reaction of immediately accusing and voting for Max makes me think that, in his mind, he'd already set up the day's lynch. The thought of other factors potentially causing the lack of kill (including arsonist, or even a simple doctor) should have given him pause, I think, until he had more information. I would also like to hear an explanation as to why Max was blocked. He seems like the kind of person you block as a scum RB because it'll always be plausible that you "thought he was scum", whereas a town RB who's thinking about which of two scum would perform the kill probably would not choose Max.
That's not even mentioning how scummy "Investigation-Immune Roleblocker" is as a role (although for some reason I'm inclined to think that scummy roles were given to town in this setup).
Magma Mater: I'm also going to need to see more justification of your vote on NJW. Why was his vote on me bad?
I believe Toaster's null-claim... there does seem to be a weird theme this game, and falseclaiming a confirmable investigation-blocker against an unreliable cop would be insanity. On the other hand, I don't think it clears them... I've BEEN ascetic scum, for example. NAI.It's this passage that made me uneasy. In the first paragraph, he talks about how Toaster's claim makes sense in this setup specifically because there are lots of investigatives and whatnot. Then in the second paragraph, he votes for Toaster for weak factors, basically something that would apply to people other than Toaster. I'd have thought that the first paragraph would be enough to leave Toaster out of the PoE for at least a day, in NJW's mind.
I know I always complain about there being too much in each day, but I do feel like I don't have enough information from people this time. On the basis of a number of very weak factors, such as our not having seen much input from them, Toaster.
I'm pretty confident that Toaster and Webadict are mafia. I can give detailed reasoning when I'm at a computer. For now, in short Web has been trying to lead bandwagons and get the heat off Toaster. This nokill is a frame job. Toaster is framing Max while also protecting Web.Looking forward to hearing detailed explanations for these bold claims.
I also wrote notes during N1 but they're at home and I won't be there for awhile today. I will post them when I can.
As for my action, I gave a radio to Maximum Spin.Why Max? Seems like an odd choice.
@web: You got a result of 3 on EuchreJack, does that include yourself?
Not entirely caught up, but out of time for now. Will post more later.
Post by: Roden on January 21, 2022, 07:08:39 pm
Alright, I wasn't sure if you had any other abilities that might have affected anyone last night. You get resolved on Day 3 so that's fine for now.Alright, I believe Jack and Max. More so Jack, but I trust Max through Jack right now. I just need to hear from Jim and Magma now.Hear from me for what?
I fully claimed on Day 1. I have no night action. I got flavor related to my role (I'm frantically searching for my papers that prove my innocence) but nothing related to anything that may have targeted me.
Roden:My action did fail, but nearly everyone's actions have been accounted for.I targeted Toaster last night but was also Roleblocked. I thought he might've been lying and was actually just Ascetic, but you're also claiming that you were Roleblocked. My Unreliable passive can't cause my action to fail either, I was specifically told something else caused it to fail. This is why I asked if you targeted Toaster.
Toaster can still be Ascetic I guess, since I don't know how we both could've been blocked here otherwise. But I'm just not sure why he would lie about his role if he's town. Then again, I'm not sure why anyone would waste their Roleblock on me just to stop me from confirming that Toaster is Null to investigations.
I find this quite interesting. Are you 100% sure you were blocked as opposed to your action just failing? That wasn't me that blocked you. Either someone blocked you or reflected my action?
Does anyone want to claim affecting Roden?
Toony gave Jack an item, which Jack confirmed.
Jack Neighborized Max, which Max confirmed.
Web gave an accurate count on the number of actions affecting Jack, so his action is essentially accounted for.
Jim claims Day 3 IC with no abilities, he gets resolved tomorrow.
You blocked Max, which confirms both of your actions.
All that leaves is Magma Mater. If their action can be confirmed, then no one else could have made my action fail except you, by way of you lying and actually being Ascetic.
A bit unrelated, but if you are lying and are mafia, then the lack of NK may be because of either a delayed kill or an alternative passive killing method.
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 07:18:58 pm
@web: You got a result of 3 on EuchreJack, does that include yourself?It does not. There is a third person that targeted EuchreJack that has not confessed.
Toony gave Jack an item, which Jack confirmed.Well, technically, no, my action requires one more person to confirm me fully. Unless Maximum Spin actually did target EuchreJack, but that doesn't seem like it should if he was roleblocked.
Jack Neighborized Max, which Max confirmed.
Web gave an accurate count on the number of actions affecting Jack, so his action is essentially accounted for.
Jim claims Day 3 IC with no abilities, he gets resolved tomorrow.
You blocked Max, which confirms both of your actions.
All that leaves is Magma Mater. If their action can be confirmed, then no one else could have made my action fail except you, by way of you lying and actually being Ascetic.
A bit unrelated, but if you are lying and are mafia, then the lack of NK may be because of either a delayed kill or an alternative passive killing method.
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 07:24:37 pm
It occurs to me, Toaster, that since you appear not to have read the previous rounds, you don't know that we've already had two setups where scum didn't actually have an immediate kill at all. It is extremely possible that the no-kill was not a choice.I think we should wait for Magma Mater to confirm their action. I will unvote for now.
I don't think Toaster is scum here. I think it's very likely to be Maximum Spin, ToonyMan, or maybe Magma Mater.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 21, 2022, 07:45:27 pm
To me the obvious explanation is that Toaster is just not explaining their ability properly, and that null = ascetic. But I'm also prone to making game-losing assumptions so LOL
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 07:47:49 pm
I don't think Toaster is scum here. I think it's very likely to be Maximum Spin, ToonyMan, or maybe Magma Mater.You should be considering Roden, who was also apparently roleblocked.
Separately, let's be realistic, if I had been scum and tried to do the kill etc., I wouldn't have admitted to being roleblocked in my response, I would have claimed to have done an action, which my partner would seem to confirm, and, when/if Toaster claimed the roleblock, suggested that the action must have failed somehow. (Of course, I most likely wouldn't have been the one to do the kill, anyway; too much daytime visibility.) Unless you're suggesting that I'm solo scum in a setup with at least two roleblockers and no strongman ability to make up for it. I think it's more likely that there just aren't d1 kills for whatever reason again.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 07:49:10 pm
Only thing I'm willing to claim at the moment is that my action would not have blocked Roden.Worse, I think Toaster knew that and made the misleading claim to try to bait people into wasting investigations checking it.
To me the obvious explanation is that Toaster is just not explaining their ability properly, and that null = ascetic. But I'm also prone to making game-losing assumptions so LOL
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 07:54:29 pm
If Roden becomes confirmed town (for example, by dying), how do you plan on treating his results?The same way I said I would. When I commit, I commit.
Quote
I got to 3 votes, with 5 to hammer. Max's vote looked the worst both because it was the third on me for a silly reason, and because he hasn't changed it yet.Why does a vote look worse if I don't change it? I prefer to leave my votes in place as much as possible because I mean them. (And, to me, it is an entirely serious reason.)
Sorry to triple-post but I genuinely forgot about this until now.
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 08:22:12 pm
You immediately voted Toaster right after he claimed to have roleblocked you. If anything, it's possible that you initially overreacted. He had a very good reason to suspect you especially because, as you put it, he would have no reason to believe there isn't another kill method. So, assuming this, that's reasonable suspicion to think that you're scum. He's still Town in this instance.I don't think Toaster is scum here. I think it's very likely to be Maximum Spin, ToonyMan, or maybe Magma Mater.You should be considering Roden, who was also apparently roleblocked.
Separately, let's be realistic, if I had been scum and tried to do the kill etc., I wouldn't have admitted to being roleblocked in my response, I would have claimed to have done an action, which my partner would seem to confirm, and, when/if Toaster claimed the roleblock, suggested that the action must have failed somehow. (Of course, I most likely wouldn't have been the one to do the kill, anyway; too much daytime visibility.) Unless you're suggesting that I'm solo scum in a setup with at least two roleblockers and no strongman ability to make up for it. I think it's more likely that there just aren't d1 kills for whatever reason again.
You, on the other hand, voted him in retaliation for his vote on you. That does seem to indicate that you were OMGUSing based entirely on that. To me, you are the one that seems suspicious in this, not Toaster.
If I'm to say anything here, it's that Toaster's role is literally too suspicious to be scum, and while that's the stupidest thing I've ever said, I'm all in on that stupid fucking idea.
Or at least, Toaster's definitely not lying. Maybe he's scum. It just seems too stupid for him to be scum.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 21, 2022, 08:37:24 pm
You, on the other hand, voted him in retaliation for his vote on you.No, I voted him because I think he's scum.
Why do people persist in thinking I vote for literally any other reason?
Post by: Roden on January 21, 2022, 10:12:27 pm
I ended up messaging the mod about this, and unfortunately they couldn't confirm if someone who was Roleblocked would still visit their target. Though I was informed that visiting a Commuter wouldn't happen, but visiting an Ascetic would.@web: You got a result of 3 on EuchreJack, does that include yourself?It does not. There is a third person that targeted EuchreJack that has not confessed.Toony gave Jack an item, which Jack confirmed.Well, technically, no, my action requires one more person to confirm me fully. Unless Maximum Spin actually did target EuchreJack, but that doesn't seem like it should if he was roleblocked.
Jack Neighborized Max, which Max confirmed.
Web gave an accurate count on the number of actions affecting Jack, so his action is essentially accounted for.
Jim claims Day 3 IC with no abilities, he gets resolved tomorrow.
You blocked Max, which confirms both of your actions.
All that leaves is Magma Mater. If their action can be confirmed, then no one else could have made my action fail except you, by way of you lying and actually being Ascetic.
A bit unrelated, but if you are lying and are mafia, then the lack of NK may be because of either a delayed kill or an alternative passive killing method.
So right now, either someone isn't admitting to visiting Jack, which spews him as town, or you're giving fake results, which I don't have any reason to believe. If scum have Multitasking then I believe you're hard cleared as town though.
I still think Toaster is scum here because we can't account for the third person who targeted Jack, and with that in mind no one else would've been able to Roleblock me. Toaster is just Ascetic and lying about his role.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 21, 2022, 10:14:51 pm
Do you think that Max is town?Why did you target Jack, btw?Jack has asked me not to claim until d3. I just thought it would be useful to do so.
To clarify, I've asked Max not to claim his role. I also told Max to reveal that he targeted me.
The nature of that role should be reserved for after it actually gets used, whatever it might be.
Post by: Roden on January 21, 2022, 10:16:09 pm
This could just be another Toony/McMiner situation from Totem Mafia. Toaster shouldn't be exempt from suspicion just because of his claimed role.You immediately voted Toaster right after he claimed to have roleblocked you. If anything, it's possible that you initially overreacted. He had a very good reason to suspect you especially because, as you put it, he would have no reason to believe there isn't another kill method. So, assuming this, that's reasonable suspicion to think that you're scum. He's still Town in this instance.I don't think Toaster is scum here. I think it's very likely to be Maximum Spin, ToonyMan, or maybe Magma Mater.You should be considering Roden, who was also apparently roleblocked.
Separately, let's be realistic, if I had been scum and tried to do the kill etc., I wouldn't have admitted to being roleblocked in my response, I would have claimed to have done an action, which my partner would seem to confirm, and, when/if Toaster claimed the roleblock, suggested that the action must have failed somehow. (Of course, I most likely wouldn't have been the one to do the kill, anyway; too much daytime visibility.) Unless you're suggesting that I'm solo scum in a setup with at least two roleblockers and no strongman ability to make up for it. I think it's more likely that there just aren't d1 kills for whatever reason again.
You, on the other hand, voted him in retaliation for his vote on you. That does seem to indicate that you were OMGUSing based entirely on that. To me, you are the one that seems suspicious in this, not Toaster.
If I'm to say anything here, it's that Toaster's role is literally too suspicious to be scum, and while that's the stupidest thing I've ever said, I'm all in on that stupid fucking idea.
Or at least, Toaster's definitely not lying. Maybe he's scum. It just seems too stupid for him to be scum.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 21, 2022, 10:23:38 pm
?? You're forgetting to count yourself bro@web: You got a result of 3 on EuchreJack, does that include yourself?It does not. There is a third person that targeted EuchreJack that has not confessed.Toony gave Jack an item, which Jack confirmed.Well, technically, no, my action requires one more person to confirm me fully. Unless Maximum Spin actually did target EuchreJack, but that doesn't seem like it should if he was roleblocked.
Jack Neighborized Max, which Max confirmed.
Web gave an accurate count on the number of actions affecting Jack, so his action is essentially accounted for.
Jim claims Day 3 IC with no abilities, he gets resolved tomorrow.
You blocked Max, which confirms both of your actions.
All that leaves is Magma Mater. If their action can be confirmed, then no one else could have made my action fail except you, by way of you lying and actually being Ascetic.
A bit unrelated, but if you are lying and are mafia, then the lack of NK may be because of either a delayed kill or an alternative passive killing method.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 21, 2022, 10:24:34 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 21, 2022, 10:27:28 pm
If we treat Max and Toaster as a dichotomy
Unwise.
I'd lean toward Toaster being scum. His reaction of immediately accusing and voting for Max makes me think that, in his mind, he'd already set up the day's lynch. The thought of other factors potentially causing the lack of kill (including arsonist, or even a simple doctor) should have given him pause, I think, until he had more information.
Or I, knowing something I haven't yet disclosed (but I'm about to), wanted to hit Max for maximum pressure to see how he reacted.
I would also like to hear an explanation as to why Max was blocked. He seems like the kind of person you block as a scum RB because it'll always be plausible that you "thought he was scum", whereas a town RB who's thinking about which of two scum would perform the kill probably would not choose Max.
Already answered, but TLDR Toony, my #1 pick for scum, was already set up to confirm his role by handing out an ability. I let that happen and blocked my #2 pick, Maximum Spin.
Magma Mater: I'm also going to need to see more justification of your vote on NJW. Why was his vote on me bad?I believe Toaster's null-claim... there does seem to be a weird theme this game, and falseclaiming a confirmable investigation-blocker against an unreliable cop would be insanity. On the other hand, I don't think it clears them... I've BEEN ascetic scum, for example. NAI.It's this passage that made me uneasy. In the first paragraph, he talks about how Toaster's claim makes sense in this setup specifically because there are lots of investigatives and whatnot. Then in the second paragraph, he votes for Toaster for weak factors, basically something that would apply to people other than Toaster. I'd have thought that the first paragraph would be enough to leave Toaster out of the PoE for at least a day, in NJW's mind.
I know I always complain about there being too much in each day, but I do feel like I don't have enough information from people this time. On the basis of a number of very weak factors, such as our not having seen much input from them, Toaster.
That's better reasoning than from D1. All noted.
Maximum Spin:
Separately, let's be realistic, if I had been scum and tried to do the kill etc., I wouldn't have admitted to being roleblocked in my response, I would have claimed to have done an action, which my partner would seem to confirm, and, when/if Toaster claimed the roleblock, suggested that the action must have failed somehow. (Of course, I most likely wouldn't have been the one to do the kill, anyway; too much daytime visibility.)
Straight WIFOM.
Important claim update
I have an addition to make to my claim. Yes, I blocked Maximum Spin, but the kicker is that I am a Jailkeeper. Maximum Spin was blocked and protected. As stated, I went after him hard at the outset to get reactions from him (and everyone else.) Having gotten all the available reactions, it's time to give the full action.
For the record, I also asked Fallacy if I would know if I prevented a kill, and the answer is no.
So let's give all these reactions some analysis.
Maximum Spin: Not great, really. His immediate reaction is to accuse me of setting him up, in lieu of any other option. Next post he's emphatically calling me Mafia, ostensibly firmly convinced of my scummitude. This smells of caught scum.
ToonyMan: Hard chainsaw defense of Maximum Spin. This feels wrong coming from Toony, especially how he doesn't consider any other option at all.
Webadict: Believes my claim. Goes straight for the Spin vote; had some suspicion of him late D1. I'm heavily biased here, so probably more important is Web's reaction to this post.
EuchreJack: Sits and ponders my claim, then questions the base reasoning of me targeting Spin. This is a solid analytical play. Pretty sure EJ is town, honestly.
Roden: Claims to be roleblocked as well. Is surprised by two claimed roleblocks. Is analyzing situation. Good look. PPE: Has voted me now. Still reasoning out his thoughts. Still good look.
Jim: No comment, but claims to be distracted. Unfortunate.
Magma: Suspects me over Spin. Backs up his reasoning well enough. Misses the obvious pressure of my vote, but I don't attribute that to being scum. Fine response.
Starting to wonder if Jim's telling the truth. He's claimed no action, but SOMEBODY blocked Roden. I don't see any other source of lie.
So here's the big obvious question. Do *I* believe the lack of NK was due to Spin being protected instead of blocked? Well... it's possible, yes. I need to run over a few scenarios (like figuring out who else could have blocked Roden, who would have targeted Town!Spin, who Scum!Spin's scumbuddy is, etc.) I want to get this out (short days lololo) but I've got to do some thinking.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 21, 2022, 10:38:37 pm
Here's what I wrote during N1:
Spoiler: N1 notes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Magma Mater on January 21, 2022, 10:59:57 pm
I have webadict, EuchreJack, and Jim as very likely to be town. web and Euchre are a little all over the place, which is an obvious town tell. Jim likely wouldn't claim the role he did as scum? Seems like a silly role regardless.
Of the rest of you...
@Max: If you forget about the Toaster thing for a minute, who are your top scum reads? Who would you have voted yesterday, had you been around? Why did you think that NJW was obvtown?
@Roden: Can you please explain the Toony/McMiner situation? And, do you think that Toaster's play has been scummy disregarding his role claim?
@Toaster: Can you please confirm with the moderator what a cop would receive when attempting to inspect you? Specifically, ask whether they would receive "null" or "no result". Regarding the jailkeeper claim... I suppose if you're town, that means it's very likely that the mafia do not have an arsonist, recruit, or delayed kill ability, do you agree? I have no objection to the partial claim, but now I understand even less why you chose to target Max over a player who was more likely to perform / draw the kill. Did you give any thought to that aspect of your role before choosing a target?
Also, please target Jim tonight for obvious reasons.
@Toony: Still looking forward to your thoughts on the Toaster/web team you've proposed.
Post by: Toaster on January 21, 2022, 11:12:34 pm
Regarding the jailkeeper claim... I suppose if you're town, that means it's very likely that the mafia do not have an arsonist, recruit, or delayed kill ability, do you agree?
Hmmm.... yeah, that does seem pretty reasonable. Unless Fallacy is just screwing with us... is that something he's done in past games in this series?
Did you give any thought to that aspect of your role before choosing a target?
Also, please target Jim tonight for obvious reasons.
I did, actually. Web was my choice other on that front since I (at first) misunderstood his role and thought he just got info on who visited him and that he'd be a likely target. I also considered that Toony's a potential NK target as well (except he's scummy).
Jim's a pretty good target choice. It's certainly possible but I don't much want to pre-confirm this sort of role targeting.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 21, 2022, 11:24:10 pm
First some responses to new posts...
@Toaster:
So you are proposing that Scum!Toaster and friend decided to- in a nine player game- skip the kill N1 in order to frame a townie D2? This gets them a easy lynch in exchange for... heat on Scum!Me all the rest of the game and then a probably no lynch later on to give the town an extra day avoiding MYLO? All this above option B: just kill someone? Is there a gain for this theoretical scum team that I'm just not seeing? It seems like an awfully bad trade for no real reason.It makes sense if mafia couldn't kill last night or have a nonstandard kill.
And finally, you consider this likely over the possibility that Maximum Spin tried to kill someone and got blocked by me?It's possible, but I read Max as town. He was my second choice for giving an item over Jack I would say.
@Webadict:
If I'm to say anything here, it's that Toaster's role is literally too suspicious to be scum, and while that's the stupidest thing I've ever said, I'm all in on that stupid fucking idea.What does this even mean
Or at least, Toaster's definitely not lying. Maybe he's scum. It just seems too stupid for him to be scum.Why is Toaster definitely not lying?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 11:35:37 pm
Toonyman: Gave me stuff, so I think is Town. May be ego, as otherwise Toonyman thinks I'm a complete moron that can be counted out to misuse whatever he gave me to benefit the mafia team. So yeah, I at least am almost totally convinced Toonyman is town.
Jim: We'll know tomorrow if Jim is scum. So probably Town. Also, I'm not getting a mafia!Jim read, but rather a town!Jim read.
MaximumSpin: This is just my admitting that since Max has a private chat to brainwash me, I will likely town read him.
Roden: Seems honest in his use of his power, and seems to be using it to benefit town. Town reading.
So my 3-person POE are:
Magma Mater: Hasn't claimed yet. Which is either mafia that is struggling to make up a fake claim, a cop that found nothing, or a soft claim that they prevented the kill somehow. Damn, I really should have given Magma the radio.
webadict: Web being web, actually hasn't posted enough for me to get a read. Does seem to be pushing cases more than looking for scum.
Toaster: Null Investigative result AND Jailkeeper? Give me a break, Toaster. Just claim Godfather Roleblocker and save us some time.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 11:37:02 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 21, 2022, 11:42:55 pm
Toaster: Null Investigative result AND Jailkeeper? Give me a break, Toaster. Just claim Godfather Roleblocker and save us some time.
Why is this so hard to believe? The former part doesn't really help me as Town; if anything it casts suspicion on me.
Post by: webadict on January 21, 2022, 11:44:15 pm
I've highlighted the section you missed. :P?? You're forgetting to count yourself bro@web: You got a result of 3 on EuchreJack, does that include yourself?It does not. There is a third person that targeted EuchreJack that has not confessed.Toony gave Jack an item, which Jack confirmed.Well, technically, no, my action requires one more person to confirm me fully. Unless Maximum Spin actually did target EuchreJack, but that doesn't seem like it should if he was roleblocked.
Jack Neighborized Max, which Max confirmed.
Web gave an accurate count on the number of actions affecting Jack, so his action is essentially accounted for.
Jim claims Day 3 IC with no abilities, he gets resolved tomorrow.
You blocked Max, which confirms both of your actions.
All that leaves is Magma Mater. If their action can be confirmed, then no one else could have made my action fail except you, by way of you lying and actually being Ascetic.
A bit unrelated, but if you are lying and are mafia, then the lack of NK may be because of either a delayed kill or an alternative passive killing method.
No, I don't count in the 3. I get a ping for each instance of a person actioning and being actioned (other than myself, which would be a bit silly).
It's quite possible that EuchreJack is the other Roleblocker? I was going to say that'd explain the ping, but it'd actually not because EuchreJack then used another action on top of it, which still leaves the action economy unresolved.
Important claim updateMy reasoning is that I was pretty sure you were Town, and I very much wasn't a fan of Maximum Spin's reaction. I'm down to vote out Maximum Spin here. I still feel like a Maximum Spin/ToonyMan team explains everything, and that ToonyMan might be giving out guns to kill people.
I have an addition to make to my claim. Yes, I blocked Maximum Spin, but the kicker is that I am a Jailkeeper. Maximum Spin was blocked and protected. As stated, I went after him hard at the outset to get reactions from him (and everyone else.) Having gotten all the available reactions, it's time to give the full action.
For the record, I also asked Fallacy if I would know if I prevented a kill, and the answer is no.
So let's give all these reactions some analysis.
Maximum Spin: Not great, really. His immediate reaction is to accuse me of setting him up, in lieu of any other option. Next post he's emphatically calling me Mafia, ostensibly firmly convinced of my scummitude. This smells of caught scum.
ToonyMan: Hard chainsaw defense of Maximum Spin. This feels wrong coming from Toony, especially how he doesn't consider any other option at all.
Webadict: Believes my claim. Goes straight for the Spin vote; had some suspicion of him late D1. I'm heavily biased here, so probably more important is Web's reaction to this post.
EuchreJack: Sits and ponders my claim, then questions the base reasoning of me targeting Spin. This is a solid analytical play. Pretty sure EJ is town, honestly.
Roden: Claims to be roleblocked as well. Is surprised by two claimed roleblocks. Is analyzing situation. Good look. PPE: Has voted me now. Still reasoning out his thoughts. Still good look.
Jim: No comment, but claims to be distracted. Unfortunate.
Magma: Suspects me over Spin. Backs up his reasoning well enough. Misses the obvious pressure of my vote, but I don't attribute that to being scum. Fine response.
So here's the big obvious question. Do *I* believe the lack of NK was due to Spin being protected instead of blocked? Well... it's possible, yes. I need to run over a few scenarios (like figuring out who else could have blocked Roden, who would have targeted Town!Spin, who Scum!Spin's scumbuddy is, etc.) I want to get this out (short days lololo) but I've got to do some thinking.
@Webadict:Because the best lie is either something that's only barely a lie or dramatically a lie. And for the most part, I think there's only a few players in this game that'd make dramatic lies, and they're you, me, and... honestly, I think that's it. I was gonna say Fallacy, but he's not technically a player, so that's it out of all of us. Toaster tends to go for different plays as scum that rely more on laying in the shadows, so claiming something like Null-Investigative just seems like a Towntell to me, and combining this with immediately claiming the roleblock which explains why there's no kill is, like, a no-brainer to me?If I'm to say anything here, it's that Toaster's role is literally too suspicious to be scum, and while that's the stupidest thing I've ever said, I'm all in on that stupid fucking idea.What does this even meanOr at least, Toaster's definitely not lying. Maybe he's scum. It just seems too stupid for him to be scum.Why is Toaster definitely not lying?
So, in short, it means that if Toaster claimed Purple Rhinoceros Butt as his role, I'd fucking believe it because that's too stupid to be fake. Like why I believe Jim. It's such a dumb thing to lie about.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 21, 2022, 11:57:15 pm
I KNOW the mafia team isn't EuchreJack/Max/Toonyman
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 21, 2022, 11:57:46 pm
Quote
I am a roleblocker
Quote
I never said I was only a roleblocker, I am also a jailkeeper
it cant be
These might as well have happened back to back for all the time I've been able to give this game during Day 2. I could see Maximum Spin getting protected as a reason for the NK to not happen given my impression of him at day end.
I am emotionally burnt out right now. I'll give this game a little more time tonight but something more substantial is probably going to have to wait until tomorrow.
Post by: Toaster on January 22, 2022, 12:05:23 am
MOST TOWN:
EuchreJack: If he's scum he's playing us like a fiddle. Making well reasoned posts and backing them up.
Roden: This feels like Town trying to unpack a confusing situation.
Magma Mater: I don't like his arguments, but they don't feel *scummy*, just not great.
KINDA IN THE MIDDLE:
Webadict: Not really sure what he's doing.
SCUMMY:
Jim: He's not really contributed anything, and mechanically in a good place to have blocked Roden.
Toony: Still pinging my gut. I don't like any of his arguments, and unlike Magma, they aren't at least grounded in reality. Haaaaaard defense of Maximum Spin.
Maximum Spin: Heavily covered reasons.
If we mark out those top three as possible scum, and I go to build teams out of the others...
1) Toony/Spin: Obvious. Spin went to kill while Toony built towncred by handing out an item. Spin got blocked.
2) Jim/*: Jim blocked Roden. His scumbuddy tried to kill Spin; protected by me. * would be... either Magma or Web. Web's an odd fit here, but mechanically it's... okay? His count could be total BS to sow confusion.
3) Jim/Spin: Jim blocked Roden, Spin went to kill.
4) Jim/Toony: Toony gives out item, Jim tried to kill Spin? Who blocked Roden? Toony gives out item and Jim blocks Roden? Why no kill here? This one doesn't make much sense.
Ehhhhhhhhhhh still happy with Door Number 1 here. Jim's claim reaaaalllly falls apart if he doesn't get announced D3.
I can believe Town!Magma being cagey about a claim that would help nothing yet but may help come D3.
EuchreJack:
Webadict is reaching too hard.
I KNOW the mafia team isn't EuchreJack/Max/Toonyman
How do you ALL CAPS KNOW this?
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 12:08:33 am
Webadict is reaching too hard.Would you like to waste everyone's time by pretending I said that or just your own trying to find where I didn't say that?
I KNOW the mafia team isn't EuchreJack/Max/Toonyman
I'll be honest here, Euchre, I think you're probably Town, even when you try your darnedest not to be.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 12:11:37 am
EuchreJack:Because I'm not scum.Webadict is reaching too hard.
I KNOW the mafia team isn't EuchreJack/Max/Toonyman
How do you ALL CAPS KNOW this?
Webadict is reaching too hard.Would you like to waste everyone's time by pretending I said that or just your own trying to find where I didn't say that?
I KNOW the mafia team isn't EuchreJack/Max/Toonyman
I'll be honest here, Euchre, I think you're probably Town, even when you try your darnedest not to be.
Subtle attempt to suggest I might be scum.I've highlighted the section you missed. :P?? You're forgetting to count yourself bro@web: You got a result of 3 on EuchreJack, does that include yourself?It does not. There is a third person that targeted EuchreJack that has not confessed.Toony gave Jack an item, which Jack confirmed.Well, technically, no, my action requires one more person to confirm me fully. Unless Maximum Spin actually did target EuchreJack, but that doesn't seem like it should if he was roleblocked.
Jack Neighborized Max, which Max confirmed.
Web gave an accurate count on the number of actions affecting Jack, so his action is essentially accounted for.
Jim claims Day 3 IC with no abilities, he gets resolved tomorrow.
You blocked Max, which confirms both of your actions.
All that leaves is Magma Mater. If their action can be confirmed, then no one else could have made my action fail except you, by way of you lying and actually being Ascetic.
A bit unrelated, but if you are lying and are mafia, then the lack of NK may be because of either a delayed kill or an alternative passive killing method.
No, I don't count in the 3. I get a ping for each instance of a person actioning and being actioned (other than myself, which would be a bit silly).
It's quite possible that EuchreJack is the other Roleblocker? I was going to say that'd explain the ping, but it'd actually not because EuchreJack then used another action on top of it, which still leaves the action economy unresolved.
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 12:14:07 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 12:14:32 am
PFP
I gave an item to Jack, please confirm but don't say what it is though.
I got 3 on Jack. I assume Jack actioned, so who's the last one?You'll see Web "using his ability" after ToonyMan revealed giving me an item.
Also, Web "isn't sure" if my action counts. So if 2 people claim to have actioned me, he can "clarify" my action actually didn't count.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 12:37:14 am
1. Webadict
2. Toaster
3. NJW reads
4. What happened Night 1?
5. Conclusions
1. Webadict
#1851 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345270#msg8345270) - Webadict votes Magma without a reason.
#1863 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345366#msg8345366) - Webadict tells Toaster he doesn't believe this game would have two millers. He's laying suspicion on Toaster. He also agrees with my points on NJW (which were incorrect).
#1880 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345479#msg8345479) - Webadict confirms they voted Magma without giving a reason.
#1885 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345499#msg8345499) - Webadict changes their vote to myself right after Jack votes me. Writes off Jack as town. Decides to switch to me because Magma isn't posting and includes some minor reasons why they're voting this time. What I find important is the suddenness after Jack puts an arguably solid vote on me for voting NJW. It's wagon hop.
#1900 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345574#msg8345574) - Explains their vote on Magma now, it was simply "intuition" which is fine since it was basically RVS. Web's first vote on Magma is the most NAI.
#1910 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345594#msg8345594) - Web puts Toaster as their second highest town right under Jack. "No reason to claim Null Miller" and yet they voted NJW who had claimed miller. Why believe Toaster over NJW? They even admit themselves they read NJW's miller claim was super townie at the start of the game. He's contradicting himself to suspect NJW.
#1917 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345613#msg8345613) - Webadict goes into overdrive now. They switch back to Magma for their suspicious Fruit Vendor claim, which is fine since Magma really was lying. They then unvote again in a flurry of PPEs. Right after this Magma admits they were fakeclaiming and votes NJW for justifiable reasons.
#1923 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345619#msg8345619) - Webadict jumps on the NJW vote after Magma does and just says "fucking finally someone gets it". This is a pure wagon vote. I believe they did this to try to swing momentum off of Toaster since NJW's Toaster vote could have possibly swung that way instead, but Webadict also didn't want to vote NJW first so they did weird shit until someone - in this case Magma - voted NJW first. Then they pounced. Afterwards Jack and Jim joined in quick succession before Roden hammered.
2. Toaster
#1865 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345375#msg8345375) - Toaster banters with Webadict about being a "null miller". Throws a little shade towards Web as well. That's pretty much all I have for D1. With Toaster-Webadict.
Toaster wasn't able to post for D1 end, which is understandable I can't argue that I almost didn't get my own post out. In general they didn't post much on D1.
#1954 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345918#msg8345918) - Start of D2, Toaster puts out his end of D1 post he couldn't post with their D1 reads. Webadict is their only town read. They attack me and Max the most. It's this point where I post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345955#msg8345955) that I'm confident that mafia team is Toaster/Webadict. They also like Web, Jack, and Jim's votes on NJW the most even though I think they're the most bandwagon-y. Magma had the best vote on NJW there, but Magma gets rated as badly as my pseudo-vote.
From here Web and Toaster have been pushing for me and Max for D2.
Jumping ahead to new stuff...
#2012 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346103#msg8346103) - Toaster posts another readslist, this time with Webadict in the middle. This likely isn't in response to Jack voting Web since that had just happened. They also have actual town reads now with Jack, Roden, and Magma. I think this is Toaster overcompensating for the end of D1 reads. Maybe Web told him to drop him down after seeing how today has progressed.
3. NJW's readslist
#1887 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345521#msg8345521) - NJW's scumreads were Toaster, Webadict, and Roden. I think the Roden read was bad, but I think his points on Web and Toast are good.
4. What happened Night 1?
Here's my theory:
Toaster is some kind of Ascetic Roleblocker/Jail Keeper.
Web is possibly lying about being a motion detector.
Toaster roleblocks/jailkeeps Max.
Roden gets roleblocked by something Toaster has, like a strong passive.
Webadict either actually motion detected Jack or is lying and did something else in secret.
5. Conclusions
I have more reasons to suspect Webadict, although part of that is that Toaster hasn't been as active. However, Toaster is mechanically more suspicious. My brain follows my heart so I will be voting Webadict as he is more suspect and it's more likely Webadict is playing Toaster and not the other way around.
PPE:
@Jack:
@Toonyman: Are you SURE you don't want me to say what I got? It would help me figure out how to use it...No. It's better this way.
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 12:42:13 am
Alternate Theory: Scum team is Webadict and Toaster, they tried to kill ME, they failed, and are now looking for the doctor.The fact that you might be Town is a mystery that will never truly be solved, even after the game.PFP
I gave an item to Jack, please confirm but don't say what it is though.I got 3 on Jack. I assume Jack actioned, so who's the last one?You'll see Web "using his ability" after ToonyMan revealed giving me an item.
Also, Web "isn't sure" if my action counts. So if 2 people claim to have actioned me, he can "clarify" my action actually didn't count.
I'm pretty sure I claimed Yesterday while doped up or something, but I could be making that up. I'm pretty sure the base Motion Detector my role is based off of gets a ping on both the target and anyone that targets them, so... This is factually incorrect, and easily disproven with basic Googling skills. I'd like to think that I'd be better at lying than that, but I only have some sort of brain problem, so I guess that's not out of the question.
Anyway, I've already taken a bunch of tranqs like 30 minutes ago, so I'm fucking outta here, lmao, it's so fucking obvious that it's ToonyMan and Maximum Spin, I swear to fucking god, I have to carry the Town every fucking game
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 12:59:29 am
Quote
Sometimes a Motion Detector checks only for actions performed by their target, or only for actions performed on their target.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 01:28:02 am
Web always picks one town player to defend regardless of the evidence, which could be Toaster.
Toaster's irrational push of Jim as mafia is the sort of mistake typically a Town player would make.
Mafia knows that is a losing battle, and generally prefer softer targets.
@Toaster: Do you see any connections between Web & Roden?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 01:38:35 am
1) The item that Toonyman gave to me. For which I am now Town Reading Him.
2) The role claim of Max. For which I am now Town Reading Him.
Post by: Roden on January 22, 2022, 07:50:04 am
@Roden: Can you please explain the Toony/McMiner situation? And, do you think that Toaster's play has been scummy disregarding his role claim?So, back in Totem Mafia, McMiner tried to claim that his role let him send someone a message and optionally kill them. He claimed to target Toony, who said he never got a message, but also didn't question the suggestion that McMiner had maybe been Roleblocked and just accepted it. Their interactions and the weird role claim were initially seen as too scummy to actually be scummy, but it turned out both of them were the mafia. Short answer is probably just Occam's Razor.
I don't think Toaster's play has been particularly scummy, and in fact the more I read his posts the more I feel myself being convinced that I possibly really was Roleblocked. My problem with that though is that the suspect pool is tiny and doesn't make sense. I'm also just not sure why anyone would try to fuck with my Inspect anyway. I'm already Unreliable as it is, and even if I wasn't Toaster supposedly would come up Null anyway, so what's the point? Why block me over someone like Toony or Jack, who have objectively stronger abilities?
Post by: Roden on January 22, 2022, 08:00:13 am
Actually, I think Webadict & Roden makes a better scum team than Webadict & Toaster.Do you honestly think it's in my scum range to fake a claim as specific as the one I've made?
Web always picks one town player to defend regardless of the evidence, which could be Toaster.
Toaster's irrational push of Jim as mafia is the sort of mistake typically a Town player would make.
Mafia knows that is a losing battle, and generally prefer softer targets.
@Toaster: Do you see any connections between Web & Roden?
I don't really see how I could have connections with Web this game. I've actually been cautious around him if anything, I'm suspicious of him but don't want to scum read him off of a pre-flip associative with Toaster. As it is right now, I don't have any reason to think he's lying about anything.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 22, 2022, 10:39:07 am
Or I, knowing something I haven't yet disclosed (but I'm about to), wanted to hit Max for maximum pressure to see how he reacted.This was unwise. I don't believe in "pressure". I would have reacted exactly the same to your action if you hadn't voted, simply on the understanding that you had roleblocked me and were using that to implicate me as the killer.
@Max: If you forget about the Toaster thing for a minute, who are your top scum reads? Who would you have voted yesterday, had you been around? Why did you think that NJW was obvtown?You and webadict; maybe Jim for lack of presence. I believe I did, in fact, vote yesterday, so you know who I would have voted yesterday - I'd tell you my second pick but I think that might give away information I have been asked to reserve. I can't really answer the third question very well, though... he just smelled like the color of town NJW, if that makes sense. I'm a very abstract thinker by nature; I'd have to go back over his posts to get back the specifics, and I don't really want to do that right now.
Anyway, I've already taken a bunch of tranqs like 30 minutes ago, so I'm fucking outta here, lmao, it's so fucking obvious that it's ToonyMan and Maximum Spin, I swear to fucking god, I have to carry the Town every fucking gamePeople remember when you say shit like this, you know. On the off-chance that you're actually town it just makes you look reeeeeeeally dumb.
I honestly town-read Roden. Obviously it's a possibility, but it's not the biggest possibility for me.
I'm completely down with lynching webadict, even though I don't really buy the "duped town Toaster" theory, since he's very obviously the best alternative vote. Like I just said, he's either scum or acting dumb enough that he might as well be. To be clear, I'm not blaming him for suspecting me, which is fair enough in principle; I'm blaming him for thinking it's "so fucking obvious" that he has to "carry the Town" when I know he is in fact wrong.
(One last thing though:
Do you honestly think it's in my scum range to fake a claim as specific as the one I've made?Anything can be in your scum range if you want it to be. You were last scum with me, and I distinctly remember discussing, with you, fake-claiming at least two extremely specific things. :P)
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 12:24:16 pm
Do you think Toaster is possibly more dangerous than Web here then?@Roden: Can you please explain the Toony/McMiner situation? And, do you think that Toaster's play has been scummy disregarding his role claim?So, back in Totem Mafia, McMiner tried to claim that his role let him send someone a message and optionally kill them. He claimed to target Toony, who said he never got a message, but also didn't question the suggestion that McMiner had maybe been Roleblocked and just accepted it. Their interactions and the weird role claim were initially seen as too scummy to actually be scummy, but it turned out both of them were the mafia. Short answer is probably just Occam's Razor.
I don't think Toaster's play has been particularly scummy, and in fact the more I read his posts the more I feel myself being convinced that I possibly really was Roleblocked. My problem with that though is that the suspect pool is tiny and doesn't make sense. I'm also just not sure why anyone would try to fuck with my Inspect anyway. I'm already Unreliable as it is, and even if I wasn't Toaster supposedly would come up Null anyway, so what's the point? Why block me over someone like Toony or Jack, who have objectively stronger abilities?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 12:31:47 pm
ToonyMan
I feel that his recent posts have been shallow. His points against web are things that look ostensibly scummy, but lack substance. For example, who cares if web bandwagoned onto NJW? He had already expressed suspicion there.
My second suspect is Roden. I feel like he's coasting on the Cop claim. His play here contrasts greatly from the other game we played together, where he was town and actively trying to solve the game. In this game, he's talking more about his own role interactions with Toaster and waiting for other people to post. I get the impression that he's comfortable allowing the lynch to fall wherever it falls today.
I strongly suspect that webadict is town. His play doesn't make sense from a mafia perspective. I don't support any of the votes. The only way web can be scum here is if it's with Toaster, which... alright, but why would we lynch web first in that situation?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 12:49:10 pm
I strongly suspect that webadict is town. His play doesn't make sense from a mafia perspective. I don't support any of the votes. The only way web can be scum here is if it's with Toaster, which... alright, but why would we lynch web first in that situation?Who's Toaster most likely mafia with then, Jim?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 12:56:15 pm
I don't view Toaster as likely to be mafia. But if he does flip red, I'd suspect Roden most. The guy just compared his relationship with Toaster to a scum/scum relationship in another game, lolI strongly suspect that webadict is town. His play doesn't make sense from a mafia perspective. I don't support any of the votes. The only way web can be scum here is if it's with Toaster, which... alright, but why would we lynch web first in that situation?Who's Toaster most likely mafia with then, Jim?
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 22, 2022, 01:00:46 pm
The only way web can be scum here is if it's with Toaster, which... alright, but why would we lynch web first in that situation?I simply don't see how this is possibly true. Webadict has a tendency to pick someone to latch onto, like that - it doesn't necessarily mean they're partners.
Now, I think they are, but it's certainly not the "only" potential solution.
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 01:21:17 pm
Motion Detector (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motion_Detector)I literally cannot make this up.QuoteSometimes a Motion Detector checks only for actions performed by their target, or only for actions performed on their target.
Quote
Sometimes a Motion Detector checks only for actions performed by their target, or only for actions performed on their target.IN THE LINK YOU GIVE, FIVE SENTENCES BELOW WHERE IT LITERALLY DESCRIBES THE VARIANTS:
Quote
The Motion Detector learns if any actions were performed by or on a player, but not what they were, or who else was involved.I cannot believe this is what I have to point out, but it literally is.
This is all shit.You wanna know why I know ToonyMan isn't trying?
Because there's a much better conclusion here than this:
Here's my theory:This one is actually really silly: The obvious conclusion is that I ROLEBLOCKED RODEN. I mean, it's literally so obvious that it doesn't seem like I'd have to point it out, but I do.
Toaster is some kind of Ascetic Roleblocker/Jail Keeper.
Web is possibly lying about being a motion detector.
Toaster roleblocks/jailkeeps Max.
Roden gets roleblocked by something Toaster has, like a strong passive.
Webadict either actually motion detected Jack or is lying and did something else in secret.
In this particular case, the scum team has two roleblocks, and one of them was used on Roden when one of the members is functionally immune AND THE OTHER WAS USED TO FRAME MAX. I disagree with this assertion on the principle that it is an incredibly unlikely scenario.
So, let's put a pin (#1) in that.
Let's add in the alternative theory being pushed forward:
Actually, I think Webadict & Roden makes a better scum team than Webadict & Toaster.Oh look, it's EuchreJack again! Wonderful.
Web always picks one town player to defend regardless of the evidence, which could be Toaster.
Toaster's irrational push of Jim as mafia is the sort of mistake typically a Town player would make.
Mafia knows that is a losing battle, and generally prefer softer targets.
@Toaster: Do you see any connections between Web & Roden?
Webadict + Roden? So, in this case, Webadict is lying about his action, and Roden is also lying about their action. I mean, this is necessarily impossible since Roden could've claimed to have inspected EuchreJack to balance the numbers. To me, this seems like a no-brainer, but if you think I'm scum, I obviously told Roden to lie and say they were roleblocked. The good news, is that in this particular case, Roden still has a Cop role (somehow???), or the Miller roles really do make no sense! Maybe I have a Cop role?!?
So, using what might be some basic logic, that's out the door.
This is too easy, come on, guys.
Part of the reason why I believe it's Max is because he was literally against a No Launch at the beginning of Today. He has explicitly stated that he will vote for a launch. With Toaster gone, this feels like a slam dunk for the Mafia team, as it removes what amounts to the only Roleblock against them. I'd much rather prefer me over Toaster in this case, as Toaster's role can still potentially win this.
On the other hand, if Toaster is somehow scum, I think the only possible pairing literally has to be Roden and Toaster, as that's the only way to account for the extra action without Multitasker, which I'm like 150% sure there is in this game.
On the other hand, let's start doing some real investigation, since I've got time and I'm feeling awake and perky, as to what the scumteam pairings can actually be:
#1: Maximum Spin & literally anyone but Toaster
This one is easy to understand. Maximum Spin was stopped by Toaster. Maximum Spin's boasting on Day 1 makes this technically less likely than many situations, but his retaliation against Toaster does seem haphazard at best. It's a very likely scenario, but the partners are still open for debate. If I had to guess, and I do, I'd say ToonyMan stands out for general scummy behaviors, but EuchreJack and Roden also stand out as potential people. The only person that can confirm EuchreJack's action is Maximum Spin, and I actually think Maximum Spin is good enough to be able to make a fakeclaim like that. It's not entirely likely, because EuchreJack seems fairly Town (on Day 1), but this still leaves some issues on what the extra actions were.
#2: Neither Toaster nor Maximum Spin
This one is also easy to understand. Maximum Spin is actually saved by Toaster or no kill is performed. In this particular case, we have to consider that there's a missing action or two: Roden was roleblocked on N1, and EuchreJack has either an extra action performed on or by them. Maximum Spin can confirm their Neighborizer.
This leads to a few potential conclusions:
Roden performed an action that either kills Maximum Spin or they performed a poison or prime on EuchreJack.
#3: Toaster and literally anyone but Maximum Spin
This one is below the other two because it's harder to understand, and the reasons why are complicated: Toaster definitely has a number of mysteries surrounding him, but he also has a number of confirmations. Toaster definitely roleblocked Maximum Spin, but either Jim, Magma, Roden, or I are the likely culprits, since none of our actions are confirmed. If we assume Multitasker, then this list expands to include the rest.
#4: Toaster and Maximum Spin
Is this possible? Is it worth exploring? I want to say no, but if I'm to die, I'm gonna try anyway.
Maximum Spin and Toaster's actions cannot be confirmed by anymore, but this also explains a bit of how Roden was roleblocked, and in this particular case, EuchreJack was either poisoned or primed, as that explains the extra action. Other than that? There's not much to be seen. It doesn't seem likely, as this particular play gets one of those two killed Today, which isn't a very Toaster (or Max for that matter) scumplay to me.
Fair. I definitely outbursted there, but I just saw two terrible attacks after the other. It gets old after a while.Anyway, I've already taken a bunch of tranqs like 30 minutes ago, so I'm fucking outta here, lmao, it's so fucking obvious that it's ToonyMan and Maximum Spin, I swear to fucking god, I have to carry the Town every fucking gamePeople remember when you say shit like this, you know. On the off-chance that you're actually town it just makes you look reeeeeeeally dumb.
Anyway, I've written too much already. If you wanna kill me, I'm going to reiterate that it's probably not Toaster, and that if I have to rethink it, maybe Roden is a bit more suspicious than I initially thought. I'm still under the impression that it's ToonyMan. Also, if EuchreJack is Town, he's really, really, really, bad at reading.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 22, 2022, 01:44:50 pm
Part of the reason why I believe it's Max is because he was literally against a No Launch at the beginning of Today.Why should I support no-lynch if I think I know who scum is? Actually, lynching Toaster would divide the field best (that is, if he's scum, scum is X, if he's town, scum is Y, where X and Y are specific sets of people), but lynching you is almost as good. I'm also down to lynch Magma but I think this is less likely to hit.
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 02:40:21 pm
I've got to be honest with you, you should see me/Toaster as 100% plausible. I have pulled ploys more insane than this.It's not you that I'm worried about for plausibility. I don't think Toaster would want in on it.Part of the reason why I believe it's Max is because he was literally against a No Launch at the beginning of Today.Why should I support no-lynch if I think I know who scum is? Actually, lynching Toaster would divide the field best (that is, if he's scum, scum is X, if he's town, scum is Y, where X and Y are specific sets of people), but lynching you is almost as good. I'm also down to lynch Magma but I think this is less likely to hit.
Do you think that the fight, as is, is potentially indicative of a Toaster/Maximum Spin team? I don't. I think that's you putting your idea of Toaster into your head, because you also believe that Toaster would claim Null-Indicative as scum.
If anything, your saying that further reinforces the idea that at least one of you is Town.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 03:03:54 pm
Not sure how available I'll be on the weekends.To me this sounds you like you already knew what you were going to say ahead of time.
ToonyMan
I feel that his recent posts have been shallow. His points against web are things that look ostensibly scummy, but lack substance. For example, who cares if web bandwagoned onto NJW? He had already expressed suspicion there.
@Max:
Actually, lynching Toaster would divide the field best (that is, if he's scum, scum is X, if he's town, scum is Y, where X and Y are specific sets of people), but lynching you is almost as good. I'm also down to lynch Magma but I think this is less likely to hit.I'm fine with either. Toaster is a more likely hit mechanically so maybe that's logically better, but Webadict is pissing me off.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 03:08:28 pm
Because there's a much better conclusion here than this:I had thought of that, but mafia having two roleblockers sounds unlikely to me so I put down what I felt was what most likely happened. I also think it's really unlikely there's multiple millers. I remember you even saying there might be three town millers with the third staying quiet. Why would you say this unless you're trying to clear Toaster? I can see that you're trying now, which might be because you are posting from a computer finally.Here's my theory:This one is actually really silly: The obvious conclusion is that I ROLEBLOCKED RODEN. I mean, it's literally so obvious that it doesn't seem like I'd have to point it out, but I do.
Toaster is some kind of Ascetic Roleblocker/Jail Keeper.
Web is possibly lying about being a motion detector.
Toaster roleblocks/jailkeeps Max.
Roden gets roleblocked by something Toaster has, like a strong passive.
Webadict either actually motion detected Jack or is lying and did something else in secret.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 22, 2022, 03:13:50 pm
I'm fine with either. Toaster is a more likely hit mechanically so maybe that's logically better, but Webadict is pissing me off.I would just like to add that I consider "makes ToonyMan more effective" a side benefit of lynching webadict (in general, probably).
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 22, 2022, 03:37:24 pm
N1:
Jim does nothing
Toaster jails Maximum Spin
EuchreJack gives radio to Maximum Spin
Maximum Spin targets EuchreJack, is blocked
Roden tries to inspect Toaster, is blocked
webadict targets EuchreJack, gets three pings
Magma Mater does not block Roden
ToonyMan gives item to EuchreJack
Toaster's claim is supported by Maximum Spin's claim
ToonyMan's claim is supported by EuchreJack
Reads:
Town:
EuchreJack - Poking and prodding and trying to solve the game in his EuchreJack way and is actually starting to figure out how to play mafia instead of just being pure nonsense all the time.
Townish:
Maximum Spin - I dunno I just feel good about him. His interactions generally feel genuine and there isn't anything he's posted that made me raise my eyebrows.
Toaster - Is actually producing decent content during Day 2 and looks like he's trying to solve the game.
Null:
Roden - Is still here and is doing a very good job of not making an impression on me.
ToonyMan - Has it out for webadict and Toaster but I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions. His points about webadict are decent but the ones on Toaster don't make a lot of sense to me. webadict/Toaster doing a frame job on Maximum Spin is a weird conclusion to draw.
Scummish
webadict - On reread of Day 2 in my less emotionally turbulent state he comes across as more reasonable but still leaves me feeling uneasy.
Magma Mater - Bizarre arguments and points and reasons for suspicion.
Still working. Probably going to spend some time thinking about what teams make sense and poke at people with directed questions. If the day ended now I'd feel okay with a Magma Mater lynch or a webadict one. I'll avoid casting a vote since there's still time left in the day and I want to give myself some time to work a bit more.
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 04:00:21 pm
@Webadict:The only conclusion you should reasonably make here is that there's at least one Town from this pairing because otherwise the Mafia has two Roleblockers. Am I wrong? But, this also fails because I'm not a Roleblocker.Because there's a much better conclusion here than this:I had thought of that, but mafia having two roleblockers sounds unlikely to me so I put down what I felt was what most likely happened. I also think it's really unlikely there's multiple millers. I remember you even saying there might be three town millers with the third staying quiet. Why would you say this unless you're trying to clear Toaster? I can see that you're trying now, which might be because you are posting from a computer finally.Here's my theory:This one is actually really silly: The obvious conclusion is that I ROLEBLOCKED RODEN. I mean, it's literally so obvious that it doesn't seem like I'd have to point it out, but I do.
Toaster is some kind of Ascetic Roleblocker/Jail Keeper.
Web is possibly lying about being a motion detector.
Toaster roleblocks/jailkeeps Max.
Roden gets roleblocked by something Toaster has, like a strong passive.
Webadict either actually motion detected Jack or is lying and did something else in secret.
As for the three Millers thing, that was postulation. It's basically impossible, and if someone claimed a third Miller at this point, the chance of them being scum is... Well, I'd say 100%, but it literally doesn't matter, as the only claimed Cop is Roden, so the only other way it works is Magma Mater is also a Cop.
If Magma is a Cop, then them inspecting me is the only way I see myself living, because I've kinda got everything I'm gonna get out Today, and with me dying, it proves that a Multitasker is the only way the current game state works, and that breaks a lot of the mechanical aspects wide open. I've sort of accepted the inevitability of it. I think it's dumb, and I don't think it narrows down the scum, like, at all, but being dead is a lot less stressful than being alive.
I really only targeted EuchreJack because I figured he'd be alive Today, but, eh.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 04:45:58 pm
I really only targeted EuchreJack because I figured he'd be alive Today, but, eh.@Web: This bothers me because I don't understand why you would target someone that you thought would be alive (me), rather than someone that would likely be dead (Jim). Also, why me again? What made me more likely to be alive than other players? I had some doubts whether I was going to see Day 2, so why were you so sure of me rather than other players?
One other thing: Why is Web discussing Poison/Priming? Nobody has said they were poisoned, and in the previous Fallacy games people knew when they were poisoned.
@WebAgain: What about Magma? Town or scum? Why?
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 05:15:40 pm
Because my goal is primarily to clear myself, and claiming to action the dead guy usually makes me look like scum.I really only targeted EuchreJack because I figured he'd be alive Today, but, eh.@Web: This bothers me because I don't understand why you would target someone that you thought would be alive (me), rather than someone that would likely be dead (Jim). Also, why me again? What made me more likely to be alive than other players? I had some doubts whether I was going to see Day 2, so why were you so sure of me rather than other players?
One other thing: Why is Web discussing Poison/Priming? Nobody has said they were poisoned, and in the previous Fallacy games people knew when they were poisoned.
@WebAgain: What about Magma? Town or scum? Why?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 05:17:34 pm
Thanks for the reads. I'll write out my own D2 ones soon.
@Jack:
I have an idea.
What if we lynch Toaster and have you use that item on Webadict tonight? I think that might be optimal.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 05:18:37 pm
What do you plan on doing if you're alive for N2?Because my goal is primarily to clear myself, and claiming to action the dead guy usually makes me look like scum.I really only targeted EuchreJack because I figured he'd be alive Today, but, eh.@Web: This bothers me because I don't understand why you would target someone that you thought would be alive (me), rather than someone that would likely be dead (Jim). Also, why me again? What made me more likely to be alive than other players? I had some doubts whether I was going to see Day 2, so why were you so sure of me rather than other players?
One other thing: Why is Web discussing Poison/Priming? Nobody has said they were poisoned, and in the previous Fallacy games people knew when they were poisoned.
@WebAgain: What about Magma? Town or scum? Why?
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 05:21:29 pm
@Webadict:Well, my ability is only meant to find Multitaskers, so I guess target someone that is suspicious.What do you plan on doing if you're alive for N2?Because my goal is primarily to clear myself, and claiming to action the dead guy usually makes me look like scum.I really only targeted EuchreJack because I figured he'd be alive Today, but, eh.@Web: This bothers me because I don't understand why you would target someone that you thought would be alive (me), rather than someone that would likely be dead (Jim). Also, why me again? What made me more likely to be alive than other players? I had some doubts whether I was going to see Day 2, so why were you so sure of me rather than other players?
One other thing: Why is Web discussing Poison/Priming? Nobody has said they were poisoned, and in the previous Fallacy games people knew when they were poisoned.
@WebAgain: What about Magma? Town or scum? Why?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 05:40:46 pm
Mafia having multi-tasking is only implied if you're telling the truth. The other case is that you're lying and most likely partners with Toaster...which I want to believe. Jim is offlimits today because they'll be confirmed town tomorrow so there's no point. I think everyone else is town except Magma which I'm getting more nervous of.
D2 reads:
Town
Jack - pretty sure Jack is town, they're fully engaged with the game and solving, I feel even better about giving them an item last night
Max - same as Jack
Roden - it's our cop, NJW was a town miller so Roden looks even better
Neutral
Jim - kind of just ignoring, we'll know tomorrow
Magma - Jim might be right, me and Jack were clearing Magma because of outside reasons which could be incorrect here, I feel like they didn't care what I had to say and already had an agenda in mind
Scum
Webadict - all over the place, claims motion detector which isn't 100% provable. I really think they're mafia with Toaster or maybe even Magma I need to reread this
Toaster - Toaster claims they blocked Roden, but also Roden was blocked himself, why? Toaster was also being really cagey and step-by-step with his roleclaiming which feels calculated too
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 05:56:53 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 06:05:43 pm
So then you think there's two scum Roleblockers?It's possible (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346242#msg8346242), although like I said in my case post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346111#msg8346111) I think the more likely scenario is that Roden interacted with something Toaster has.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 06:07:15 pm
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 06:12:43 pm
So, your suspicion of me is predicated on Toaster.So then you think there's two scum Roleblockers?It's possible (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346242#msg8346242), although like I said in my case post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346111#msg8346111) I think the more likely scenario is that Roden interacted with something Toaster has.
In essence, you're building a case for Toaster so that you can swap when I flip Town, because you can shrug your shoulders on that.
Weeeeeeeiiiiird.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 06:17:18 pm
@Web: Why are you pushing the Two Roleblocking Scum when Toaster being a lying Ascetic Roleblocker explains everything?
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 22, 2022, 06:18:35 pm
Not sure how available I'll be on the weekends.
ToonyMan
I feel that his recent posts have been shallow. His points against web are things that look ostensibly scummy, but lack substance. For example, who cares if web bandwagoned onto NJW? He had already expressed suspicion there.
My second suspect is Roden. I feel like he's coasting on the Cop claim. His play here contrasts greatly from the other game we played together, where he was town and actively trying to solve the game. In this game, he's talking more about his own role interactions with Toaster and waiting for other people to post. I get the impression that he's comfortable allowing the lynch to fall wherever it falls today.
I strongly suspect that webadict is town. His play doesn't make sense from a mafia perspective. I don't support any of the votes. The only way web can be scum here is if it's with Toaster, which... alright, but why would we lynch web first in that situation?
Is your contention that ToonyMan/Roden is the scum team? How does that team work with the claimed N1 game we know about?
I also don't see ToonyMan's posts as shallow or insubstantial so I view your grounds for voting him as suspect.
If I'm to say anything here, it's that Toaster's role is literally too suspicious to be scum, and while that's the stupidest thing I've ever said, I'm all in on that stupid fucking idea.
Or at least, Toaster's definitely not lying. Maybe he's scum. It just seems too stupid for him to be scum.
Stuff like this is why it's difficult for me to get a hold of this game. This is noise.
Please tell me you are not doing this intentionally.
My reasoning is that I was pretty sure you were Town, and I very much wasn't a fan of Maximum Spin's reaction. I'm down to vote out Maximum Spin here. I still feel like a Maximum Spin/ToonyMan team explains everything, and that ToonyMan might be giving out guns to kill people.
Is the substance of your case against Maximum Spin this mechanical argument that he was blocked and his reaction to Toaster voting him?
Stripped away of all the noise the case it's not meritless but it's not a slam dunk either.
@Toony: I actually was hoping the Mafia killed Max N1 because he was flaunting his role and it was an easy way to get rid of him because he's unreadable half the time. I was actually wondering if Roden was some type of Mafia meant to throw the Millers off or if Toaster might somehow be scum, but I'm much more confident that Max is lying and Toaster is telling the truth. Either that, or you actually did prime Euchre or something.
I'm going to make the observation that you were hoping Maximum Spin would get night killed so at some level you thought there was a reasonable chance of him being town. Toaster claiming jailer opened up the possibility that MS was the target of the night kill, which is something that you were hoping for, but this didn't seem to change your opinion about MS very much.
Part of the reason why I believe it's Max is because he was literally against a No Launch at the beginning of Today. He has explicitly stated that he will vote for a launch. With Toaster gone, this feels like a slam dunk for the Mafia team, as it removes what amounts to the only Roleblock against them. I'd much rather prefer me over Toaster in this case, as Toaster's role can still potentially win this.
Why would anybody advocate a no lynch when it's not milo?
Oh I see, your contention is that Maximum Spin wants Toaster dead in particular as his reason for not wanting to no lynch, versus just being an aggressive player.
One other thing: Why is Web discussing Poison/Priming? Nobody has said they were poisoned, and in the previous Fallacy games people knew when they were poisoned.
webadict is also the only person bringing up no lynching on Day 2 after a Night 1 with no kills and giving Maximum Spin flak for not wanting to no lynch.
It's really weird.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 06:22:48 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 06:24:01 pm
Just because I mentioned Toaster in that sentence and not you doesn't make that true. Your behavior is worse and more suspicious than Toaster's. Especially on Day 1. Which is why I'm voting you. I'm honestly hesitating if this is the optimal move or exactly what you want at this point.So, your suspicion of me is predicated on Toaster.So then you think there's two scum Roleblockers?It's possible (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346242#msg8346242), although like I said in my case post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346111#msg8346111) I think the more likely scenario is that Roden interacted with something Toaster has.
In essence, you're building a case for Toaster so that you can swap when I flip Town, because you can shrug your shoulders on that.
Weeeeeeeiiiiird.
Post by: webadict on January 22, 2022, 06:27:03 pm
But, the reason for not doing so is that Jim or EuchreJack probably die Tonight, and winding up at the same place Tomorrow. It's not entirely meritless if you want more role information.
But, I'm not really gonna argue for it.
Anyway, ToonyMan is literally prepping to launch Toaster Tomorrow. Please vote him out. Thank you.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 06:48:35 pm
Note: I was Not told that I was poisoned, so I probably was not
Thus, either I was Primed, Inspected, or Doctored. If I was Doctored, then Web is Mafia. If I was inspected, Web is probably Mafia on a role fishing expedition. If I was Primed, Web is probably Town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 22, 2022, 06:49:25 pm
Are the setups in this series always confusing to navigate? I'm getting the impression the night game is difficult to sort out because all sorts of random and arbitrary nonsense can happen.Yes. See 2 and 3 especially.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 06:53:00 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 07:15:03 pm
Toastadict Case
1. Webadict
2. Toaster
3. NJW reads
4. What happened Night 1?
5. Conclusions
1. Webadict
#1851 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345270#msg8345270) - Webadict votes Magma without a reason.
#1863 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345366#msg8345366) - Webadict tells Toaster he doesn't believe this game would have two millers. He's laying suspicion on Toaster. He also agrees with my points on NJW (which were incorrect).
#1880 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345479#msg8345479) - Webadict confirms they voted Magma without giving a reason.
#1885 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345499#msg8345499) - Webadict changes their vote to myself right after Jack votes me. Writes off Jack as town. Decides to switch to me because Magma isn't posting and includes some minor reasons why they're voting this time. What I find important is the suddenness after Jack puts an arguably solid vote on me for voting NJW. It's wagon hop.
#1900 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345574#msg8345574) - Explains their vote on Magma now, it was simply "intuition" which is fine since it was basically RVS. Web's first vote on Magma is the most NAI.
#1910 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345594#msg8345594) - Web puts Toaster as their second highest town right under Jack. "No reason to claim Null Miller" and yet they voted NJW who had claimed miller. Why believe Toaster over NJW? They even admit themselves they read NJW's miller claim was super townie at the start of the game. He's contradicting himself to suspect NJW.
#1917 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345613#msg8345613) - Webadict goes into overdrive now. They switch back to Magma for their suspicious Fruit Vendor claim, which is fine since Magma really was lying. They then unvote again in a flurry of PPEs. Right after this Magma admits they were fakeclaiming and votes NJW for justifiable reasons.
#1923 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345619#msg8345619) - Webadict jumps on the NJW vote after Magma does and just says "fucking finally someone gets it". This is a pure wagon vote. I believe they did this to try to swing momentum off of Toaster since NJW's Toaster vote could have possibly swung that way instead, but Webadict also didn't want to vote NJW first so they did weird shit until someone - in this case Magma - voted NJW first. Then they pounced. Afterwards Jack and Jim joined in quick succession before Roden hammered.
Bolded are the three things that can reasonably be called reasons for suspecting webadict.
The first is just web switching his vote. Toony calls it a "wagon hop" because that sounds worse, I guess. I don't see how switching your vote onto someone with one other vote is scummy.
web says the miller claim was townie but that he suspects NJW anyway. I don't see how this is a suspicious contradiction. It's not as if NJW couldn't have been fakeclaiming.
Reaching. At best, this theory is plausible if Toaster is scum. Otherwise, this argument falls apart. Really not a reason to vote for web without knowing Toaster's alignment.
This is what I meant by Toony's post lacking substance. In most of his above points he's simply pointing out things that happened. And the times where he does make accusations, the accusations are trash.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 08:01:28 pm
Additionally,.If Web flips Town, then I'm probably Primed. Why Web is arguing that their lynch won't reveal anything...is weird.Where did he say that?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 08:03:17 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 08:18:32 pm
Additionally,.If Web flips Town, then I'm probably Primed. Why Web is arguing that their lynch won't reveal anything...is weird.Where did he say that?
If Magma is a Cop, then them inspecting me is the only way I see myself living, because I've kinda got everything I'm gonna get out Today, and with me dying, it proves that a Multitasker is the only way the current game state works, and that breaks a lot of the mechanical aspects wide open. I've sort of accepted the inevitability of it. I think it's dumb, and I don't think it narrows down the scum, like, at all, but being dead is a lot less stressful than being alive.
Yeah, maybe I've been doing too much Phone reading.
Post by: Toaster on January 22, 2022, 08:57:29 pm
EuchreJack:Because I'm not scum.Webadict is reaching too hard.
I KNOW the mafia team isn't EuchreJack/Max/Toonyman
How do you ALL CAPS KNOW this?
Wait, you mean all three and not a subset of those three? You really considered the possibility of three scum in a nine player game?
Alternate Theory: Scum team is Webadict and Toaster, they tried to kill ME, they failed, and are now looking for the doctor.
Where is this theoretical failed kill coming from?
ToonyMan:
In reading your Web/Toaster case post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346111#msg8346111), I can't help but notice you don't really lay out any accusations against me. Sure, you've got something on Web, but me it's... because I have Web as my only town read? That's it?
EuchreJack:
@Toaster: Do you see any connections between Web & Roden?
I'm putting this here to acknowledge I see it. I'll have to go back and read a bit, so if you're reading this, I either got in a hurry to submit this post (I've short time right now) or just forgot to come back to it. (Going to have to look more at this in a bit; want to make the rest of this post now. Do see lower on Roden.)
@Web: Why are you pushing the Two Roleblocking Scum when Toaster being a lying Ascetic Roleblocker explains everything?
Except the block on Roden and Web's missed count. They can't BOTH be lying in a Scum!Toaster world.
Maximum Spin:
Or I, knowing something I haven't yet disclosed (but I'm about to), wanted to hit Max for maximum pressure to see how he reacted.This was unwise. I don't believe in "pressure". I would have reacted exactly the same to your action if you hadn't voted, simply on the understanding that you had roleblocked me and were using that to implicate me as the killer.
I wholeheartedly disagree; I've gotten good results and seen even better off pressure votes. Remember, the reactions of others around the target can be just as informative! COUGH TOONYMAN CHAINSAW DEFENDING YOU COUGH
Gonna throw this out here; if Maximum Spin is Town, it's probably Roden as scum, who tried to kill Maximum Spin last night and failed. He- instead of claiming a Null on me and lending me credibility- claims getting blocked to do me no favors and instead set out confusion. It's... not impossible, certainly. I'd need to think on who Roden's theoretical partner is in this case. If Roden's not a cop, then my role needs extant investigative abilities to make sense. Other investigations? Web's motion detector, Toony might have a investigative invention, and Magma hasn't claimed? It's... possible?
Toony still seems really scummy.
Post by: Toaster on January 22, 2022, 08:57:47 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 09:14:58 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 09:25:31 pm
I'm having internet problems and doubts about Webadict being scum.
I'd like to vote Magma to get him to claim, but internet problems and insufficient time to push and argue the issue.
Why is everyone else OK with Magma not claiming?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 09:34:29 pm
In reading your Web/Toaster case post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346111#msg8346111), I can't help but notice you don't really lay out any accusations against me. Sure, you've got something on Web, but me it's... because I have Web as my only town read? That's it?First, that's not it. Roden's interactions with you are suspicious (and I believe Roden) and I also included NJW's reads. You don't have much activity on D1, but I've been trying to pay attention to player's behavior with one another.
Second, why do you think I'm voting Webadict? I think you're scummy, but I don't have as good an argument compared to Webadict. I unvoted NJW on D1 at one point because I felt my argument wasn't good enough. I think it's reasonable to reassess.
Gonna throw this out here; if Maximum Spin is Town, it's probably Roden as scum, who tried to kill Maximum Spin last night and failed. He- instead of claiming a Null on me and lending me credibility- claims getting blocked to do me no favors and instead set out confusion. It's... not impossible, certainly. I'd need to think on who Roden's theoretical partner is in this case. If Roden's not a cop, then my role needs extant investigative abilities to make sense. Other investigations? Web's motion detector, Toony might have a investigative invention, and Magma hasn't claimed? It's... possible?Funny how you pointed out I was either/or-ing NJW and you, but you're either/or-ing Max and Roden here.
I should clarify that; Toony seems scummy because his arguments suck.Magma seems to think that too.
Uuuuugh
PPE:
@Jack:
Why is everyone else OK with Magma not claiming?I'm neutral. It's okay for the same reasons you not sharing what my item is or what Max's role are good, but it's bad if Magma is mafia.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 09:46:09 pm
UnvoteZero chance of me ever claiming sry
I'm having internet problems and doubts about Webadict being scum.
I'd like to vote Magma to get him to claim, but internet problems and insufficient time to push and argue the issue.
Why is everyone else OK with Magma not claiming?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 09:47:45 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 09:59:42 pm
Quote
webadict (1): Maximum Spin
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (1): Toaster
Roden (0):
Jim Groovester (0):
ToonyMan (1): Magma Mater
Magma Mater (0):
Toaster (1): Roden
Not Voting (4): EuchreJack, webadict, Jim Groovester, ToonyMan
I think this is correct.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 10:14:56 pm
So let me get this straight: We don't know how Roden was roleblocked. Everybody has claimed an action besides Jim and Magma. However, Jim has claimed Day 3 Innocent so he gets a pass. Magma has not claimed and refuses to claim except that they're a ninja and did not action Jack...or at least wouldn't show up on Web's sensors. I've been assuming Roden was blocked because of Toaster or Web, but Magma is a complete unknown.
Look, we need to pick someone inside Magma/Toaster/Webadict because at least one of them is lying. I'm excluding Jim, because again he'll be a known quantity tomorrow.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 10:34:59 pm
I'm also voting Webadict, but let's make that accurate by unvoting.I claimed to have not blocked Roden.
So let me get this straight: We don't know how Roden was roleblocked. Everybody has claimed an action besides Jim and Magma. However, Jim has claimed Day 3 Innocent so he gets a pass. Magma has not claimed and refuses to claim except that they're a ninja and did not action Jack...or at least wouldn't show up on Web's sensors. I've been assuming Roden was blocked because of Toaster or Web, but Magma is a complete unknown.
Look, we need to pick someone inside Magma/Toaster/Webadict because at least one of them is lying. I'm excluding Jim, because again he'll be a known quantity tomorrow.
It's also possible that Roden is just lying, yeah? Or that either Toaster or Roden are still misinterpreting the messages they've received from the mod.
I hate that you're trying to narrow the PoE to myself, Toaster and web simply due to that one interaction. And you didn't even include the person most likely to be lying.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 11:01:04 pm
Magma, you voted NJW mainly because NJW's vote on Roden looked bad, right? Do you believe your reasoning is better, why?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 22, 2022, 11:16:23 pm
I don't believe Roden is lying. They claimed second, right after NJW, there haven't been any other cop claims, and we've had two roleclaims that would mess with him. Besides that I feel they're being genuine.My reasoning for what, for suspecting Roden? The entire reason for why I'm not voting Roden right now is because of the cop claim. I think his play has been by far the scummiest today, for reasons I've already mentioned. The tl;dr being that he isn't trying to find scum at all.
Magma, you voted NJW mainly because NJW's vote on Roden looked bad, right? Do you believe your reasoning is better, why?
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 22, 2022, 11:31:45 pm
N1:
Jim does nothing
Toaster jails Maximum Spin
EuchreJack gives radio to Maximum Spin
Maximum Spin targets EuchreJack, is blocked
Roden tries to inspect Toaster, is blocked
webadict targets EuchreJack, gets three pings
Magma Mater does not block Roden/did not target EuchreJack
ToonyMan gives item to EuchreJack
Toaster's claim is supported by Maximum Spin's claim
ToonyMan's claim is supported by EuchreJack
EuchreJack's claim is supported by MaximumSpin
So I'm thinking. Aren't there more actions than there are people?
webadict, EuchreJack, and ToonyMan account for four - Inventor item giveaway to Jack, Jack giving away a radio, webadict targeting EuchreJack and getting three pings, and the unclaimed third ping that webadict claimed
Roden accounts for two - Roden's blocked inspection, the unclaimed blocker
Toaster and Maximum Spin together account for two - Maximum Spin attempting something on EuchreJack, getting jailed by Toaster
Magma Mater claims to not have targeted either Roden or EuchreJack
This is nine actions with eight remaining players in a game with seven roles that can actually perform actions.
So,
Roden is lying about being blocked
Toaster is lying (or is wrong) and is actually an ascetic
webadict lied about targeting EuchreJack or the number of pings he got
Magma Mater lied about who they targeted
I'm inclined to believe Roden and Toaster more than I am Magma Mater and webadict at this point.
I don't believe Roden is lying.
Roden was also the first person to claim some sort of failed role result on Toaster.
My reasoning for what, for suspecting Roden? The entire reason for why I'm not voting Roden right now is because of the cop claim. I think his play has been by far the scummiest today, for reasons I've already mentioned. The tl;dr being that he isn't trying to find scum at all.
My second suspect is Roden. I feel like he's coasting on the Cop claim. His play here contrasts greatly from the other game we played together, where he was town and actively trying to solve the game. In this game, he's talking more about his own role interactions with Toaster and waiting for other people to post. I get the impression that he's comfortable allowing the lynch to fall wherever it falls today.
Why is a 75% reliable cop who's scummy because he's coasting on his cop claim and who you suspect of lying not worth voting because of his cop claim?
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm there's a lot about Magma Mater that's bothering me, and more than webadict right now.
Magma Mater.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 22, 2022, 11:53:47 pm
Okay, but why am I a better vote over Roden if my action is confirmed by Jack? Roden claiming cop is also mechanical but isn't even confirmable currently.I don't believe Roden is lying. They claimed second, right after NJW, there haven't been any other cop claims, and we've had two roleclaims that would mess with him. Besides that I feel they're being genuine.My reasoning for what, for suspecting Roden? The entire reason for why I'm not voting Roden right now is because of the cop claim. I think his play has been by far the scummiest today, for reasons I've already mentioned. The tl;dr being that he isn't trying to find scum at all.
Magma, you voted NJW mainly because NJW's vote on Roden looked bad, right? Do you believe your reasoning is better, why?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 22, 2022, 11:58:32 pm
Regarding ToonyMan: Unless you think me scum, you have confirmation that ToonyMan is an inventor.
Now, is ToonyMan a Scum Inventor or a Town Inventor?
The only info is whom ToonyMan gave their invention. Which is me. How many of you are reading me as not just town but LOCK TOWN?
ToonyMan on D1 indicated that I was probably Town. Would the purchase of my vote be more useful than giving stuff to a player that hard to frame?
Regarding Magma: Did Magma say that they didn't action me? Or did we just assume they said that? Magma did claim ninja, but they threw that into their Obviously Fake claim on D1. So the Ninja part actually looks legit.
I'm inclined to vote Roden over Magma, purely because Magma seems to have more to offer. Roden's ability is patently unreliable, and Roden pulled the only parlor trick he could out of it. Magma has unlimited potential. Even better, if Magma is town, that unlimited potential means drawing a night kill over someone that is more obviously town. Going to the grave to keep secret? What commitment! I'm swooning over Magma!
Regarding Toaster & Roden: As Magma pointed out, they could just be misunderstanding and misinterpreting townies.
Max: Private chat, looks legit to me.
Jim: Awaiting Day 3 reveal
So Webadict again. I usually fall for the sympathy and other manipulative ploys and stop voting the scum.
My theory is that Webadict is telling the truth about being a Motion Detector, but is mafia. Maybe telling the truth about my being primed because their scum buddy did the deed. Reeks of Too Much Information. Who is talking about Priming? Who is questioning mafia's ability to kill? Who desperately wants to implicate Toonyman, even though the Third Action Person would be a far better suspect? Who is bringing up Multitasking?
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 23, 2022, 12:01:59 am
Regarding Magma: Did Magma say that they didn't action me? Or did we just assume they said that? Magma did claim ninja, but they threw that into their Obviously Fake claim on D1. So the Ninja part actually looks legit.
Yes.
Checking in. No-kill is surprising. I'll say that I was neither responsible for the lack of kill, nor did I target EuchreJack. More later.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 23, 2022, 12:06:44 am
I'm inclined to vote Roden over Magma, purely because Magma seems to have more to offer. Roden's ability is patently unreliable, and Roden pulled the only parlor trick he could out of it. Magma has unlimited potential. Even better, if Magma is town, that unlimited potential means drawing a night kill over someone that is more obviously town. Going to the grave to keep secret? What commitment! I'm swooning over Magma!Well, I'm not swooning over it.
I think I'm actually going to vote Magma. What'd you do last night?
PPE:
That's what I thought, and then here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346347#msg8346347) they give me this corrective attitude by saying "I claimed to have not blocked Roden" when I mentioned that.Regarding Magma: Did Magma say that they didn't action me? Or did we just assume they said that? Magma did claim ninja, but they threw that into their Obviously Fake claim on D1. So the Ninja part actually looks legit.Yes.Checking in. No-kill is surprising. I'll say that I was neither responsible for the lack of kill, nor did I target EuchreJack. More later.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 12:08:49 am
Still think Webadict is playing overwatch for scumbuddy like NJW did as Mafia Watcher in Round 4.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 23, 2022, 12:14:50 am
Because as crazy as I am, "Scum Cop" is a crazy assumption to make at 8p. Especially with so many unknowns. The truth is that his claim has earned him some slank cover. If he's still slanking at 5p then I'll be willing to reassess.N1:
Jim does nothing
Toaster jails Maximum Spin
EuchreJack gives radio to Maximum Spin
Maximum Spin targets EuchreJack, is blocked
Roden tries to inspect Toaster, is blocked
webadict targets EuchreJack, gets three pings
Magma Mater does not block Roden/did not target EuchreJack
ToonyMan gives item to EuchreJack
Toaster's claim is supported by Maximum Spin's claim
ToonyMan's claim is supported by EuchreJack
EuchreJack's claim is supported by MaximumSpin
So I'm thinking. Aren't there more actions than there are people?
webadict, EuchreJack, and ToonyMan account for four - Inventor item giveaway to Jack, Jack giving away a radio, webadict targeting EuchreJack and getting three pings, and the unclaimed third ping that webadict claimed
Roden accounts for two - Roden's blocked inspection, the unclaimed blocker
Toaster and Maximum Spin together account for two - Maximum Spin attempting something on EuchreJack, getting jailed by Toaster
Magma Mater claims to not have targeted either Roden or EuchreJack
This is nine actions with eight remaining players in a game with seven roles that can actually perform actions.
So,
Roden is lying about being blocked
Toaster is lying (or is wrong) and is actually an ascetic
webadict lied about targeting EuchreJack or the number of pings he got
Magma Mater lied about who they targeted
I'm inclined to believe Roden and Toaster more than I am Magma Mater and webadict at this point.I don't believe Roden is lying.
Roden was also the first person to claim some sort of failed role result on Toaster.My reasoning for what, for suspecting Roden? The entire reason for why I'm not voting Roden right now is because of the cop claim. I think his play has been by far the scummiest today, for reasons I've already mentioned. The tl;dr being that he isn't trying to find scum at all.My second suspect is Roden. I feel like he's coasting on the Cop claim. His play here contrasts greatly from the other game we played together, where he was town and actively trying to solve the game. In this game, he's talking more about his own role interactions with Toaster and waiting for other people to post. I get the impression that he's comfortable allowing the lynch to fall wherever it falls today.
Why is a 75% reliable cop who's scummy because he's coasting on his cop claim and who you suspect of lying not worth voting because of his cop claim?
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm there's a lot about Magma Mater that's bothering me, and more than webadict right now.
Magma Mater.
@Magma:Why would I care if your inventor claim is confirmed? How is that relevant?Okay, but why am I a better vote over Roden if my action is confirmed by Jack? Roden claiming cop is also mechanical but isn't even confirmable currently.I don't believe Roden is lying. They claimed second, right after NJW, there haven't been any other cop claims, and we've had two roleclaims that would mess with him. Besides that I feel they're being genuine.My reasoning for what, for suspecting Roden? The entire reason for why I'm not voting Roden right now is because of the cop claim. I think his play has been by far the scummiest today, for reasons I've already mentioned. The tl;dr being that he isn't trying to find scum at all.
Magma, you voted NJW mainly because NJW's vote on Roden looked bad, right? Do you believe your reasoning is better, why?
Cop claim is relevant because we have a flipped miller. Inventor claim is totally different.
Just acknowledging this and repeating that I won't be claiming today.I'm inclined to vote Roden over Magma, purely because Magma seems to have more to offer. Roden's ability is patently unreliable, and Roden pulled the only parlor trick he could out of it. Magma has unlimited potential. Even better, if Magma is town, that unlimited potential means drawing a night kill over someone that is more obviously town. Going to the grave to keep secret? What commitment! I'm swooning over Magma!Well, I'm not swooning over it.
I think I'm actually going to vote Magma. What'd you do last night?
PPE:That's what I thought, and then here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346347#msg8346347) they give me this corrective attitude by saying "I claimed to have not blocked Roden" when I mentioned that.Regarding Magma: Did Magma say that they didn't action me? Or did we just assume they said that? Magma did claim ninja, but they threw that into their Obviously Fake claim on D1. So the Ninja part actually looks legit.Yes.Checking in. No-kill is surprising. I'll say that I was neither responsible for the lack of kill, nor did I target EuchreJack. More later.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 12:25:07 am
Isn't that worth keeping around?
Not really in the mood for associative analysis at this point, but I'm seeing Roden/Toaster/Magma as possible scum. Do they have a common Most Likely Partner?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 23, 2022, 12:25:45 am
Because as crazy as I am, "Scum Cop" is a crazy assumption to make at 8p. Especially with so many unknowns. The truth is that his claim has earned him some slank cover. If he's still slanking at 5p then I'll be willing to reassess.You know why those unknowns exist, right?
Why would I care if your inventor claim is confirmed? How is that relevant?I can't be lying unless I'm mafia with Jack. Mafia have to be lying in this situation to account for the unknowns, therefore voting someone who could be lying sounds sensible to me.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 23, 2022, 12:30:10 am
Are you actually trying to imply that you cannot possibly be a mafia inventor??Because as crazy as I am, "Scum Cop" is a crazy assumption to make at 8p. Especially with so many unknowns. The truth is that his claim has earned him some slank cover. If he's still slanking at 5p then I'll be willing to reassess.You know why those unknowns exist, right?Why would I care if your inventor claim is confirmed? How is that relevant?I can't be lying unless I'm mafia with Jack. Mafia have to be lying in this situation to account for the unknowns, therefore voting someone who could be lying sounds sensible to me.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 12:33:20 am
Why would I care if your inventor claim is confirmed? How is that relevant?Because you might be able to ascertain whether or not ToonyMan is scum via the inventor claim. Or "more likely scum" vs. "More Likely Town".
Cop claim is relevant because we have a flipped miller. Inventor claim is totally different.
Why do you think ToonyMan gave me something? Why not someone else? Why not their scumbuddy?
Who needs a fake claim when your scum buddy can just GIVE you something to do?
ToonyMan could TOTALLY be a mafia inventor. But is it more likely than ToonyMan being a Town inventor? That is the question!Are you actually trying to imply that you cannot possibly be a mafia inventor??Because as crazy as I am, "Scum Cop" is a crazy assumption to make at 8p. Especially with so many unknowns. The truth is that his claim has earned him some slank cover. If he's still slanking at 5p then I'll be willing to reassess.You know why those unknowns exist, right?Why would I care if your inventor claim is confirmed? How is that relevant?I can't be lying unless I'm mafia with Jack. Mafia have to be lying in this situation to account for the unknowns, therefore voting someone who could be lying sounds sensible to me.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 23, 2022, 12:34:20 am
1. The Roden "block" can be explained by either of them not understanding their role / result correctly.
2. The webadict 3rd person can be Max who was blocked but still counts as "targeting".
The most likely scenario here is that y'all are chasing after a couple of red herrings. I don't get why that's difficult to understand for the people in this game. Just play Mafia please.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 12:36:48 am
Seriously, the "unknowns" that people are basing the entire game on could both be explained by moderation quirks.Good points, especially in a Fallacy game.
1. The Roden "block" can be explained by either of them not understanding their role / result correctly.
2. The webadict 3rd person can be Max who was blocked but still counts as "targeting".
The most likely scenario here is that y'all are chasing after a couple of red herrings. I don't get why that's difficult to understand for the people in this game. Just play Mafia please.
Other than ToonyMan, what are your other suspects?
@ToonyMan: What are YOUR other suspects?
Maybe you two could agree to go after them instead of each other? :'(
Post by: Magma Mater on January 23, 2022, 12:38:18 am
Uhhh off the top of my head, reasons for giving a gift to town-Jack instead of to a scumbuddy:Why would I care if your inventor claim is confirmed? How is that relevant?Because you might be able to ascertain whether or not ToonyMan is scum via the inventor claim. Or "more likely scum" vs. "More Likely Town".
Cop claim is relevant because we have a flipped miller. Inventor claim is totally different.
Why do you think ToonyMan gave me something? Why not someone else? Why not their scumbuddy?
Who needs a fake claim when your scum buddy can just GIVE you something to do?
1. He doesn't know who his scumbuddy is.
2. He knows you'd town-read him for giving you something.
3. He thinks you'll use it in an anti-town way.
4. The gift is cursed.
5. He's forced to give a gift to town, and their team tried to circumvent that by having Max kill you.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 23, 2022, 12:38:44 am
That's not what I'm saying.Are you actually trying to imply that you cannot possibly be a mafia inventor??Because as crazy as I am, "Scum Cop" is a crazy assumption to make at 8p. Especially with so many unknowns. The truth is that his claim has earned him some slank cover. If he's still slanking at 5p then I'll be willing to reassess.You know why those unknowns exist, right?Why would I care if your inventor claim is confirmed? How is that relevant?I can't be lying unless I'm mafia with Jack. Mafia have to be lying in this situation to account for the unknowns, therefore voting someone who could be lying sounds sensible to me.
I'm not accounting for the unknowns. I've decided my choices are between the four players that are. I want to believe Roden so that leaves Toaster, Webadict, and you. Strangely enough these are most of the players I've been suspicious of this whole game!
PPE:
Seriously, the "unknowns" that people are basing the entire game on could both be explained by moderation quirks.I try to present cases and people say they suck (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346328#msg8346328).
Just play Mafia please.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 12:39:26 am
Post by: Magma Mater on January 23, 2022, 12:40:35 am
Seriously, the "unknowns" that people are basing the entire game on could both be explained by moderation quirks.Good points, especially in a Fallacy game.
1. The Roden "block" can be explained by either of them not understanding their role / result correctly.
2. The webadict 3rd person can be Max who was blocked but still counts as "targeting".
The most likely scenario here is that y'all are chasing after a couple of red herrings. I don't get why that's difficult to understand for the people in this game. Just play Mafia please.
Other than ToonyMan, what are your other suspects?
@ToonyMan: What are YOUR other suspects?
Maybe you two could agree to go after them instead of each other? :'(
My PoE is Toony, Roden, Max, Toaster. If we're not killing Toony, I'd be most willing to eliminate Max today. I'll be honest, it would be nice to not have to wonder about whether the kill was stopped due to the jailkeep.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 23, 2022, 12:41:51 am
By "play mafia" I mean vote for people other than me, obviously! 8)That's not what I'm saying.Are you actually trying to imply that you cannot possibly be a mafia inventor??Because as crazy as I am, "Scum Cop" is a crazy assumption to make at 8p. Especially with so many unknowns. The truth is that his claim has earned him some slank cover. If he's still slanking at 5p then I'll be willing to reassess.You know why those unknowns exist, right?Why would I care if your inventor claim is confirmed? How is that relevant?I can't be lying unless I'm mafia with Jack. Mafia have to be lying in this situation to account for the unknowns, therefore voting someone who could be lying sounds sensible to me.
I'm not accounting for the unknowns. I've decided my choices are between the four players that are. I want to believe Roden so that leaves Toaster, Webadict, and you. Strangely enough these are most of the players I've been suspicious of this whole game!
PPE:Seriously, the "unknowns" that people are basing the entire game on could both be explained by moderation quirks.I try to present cases and people say they suck (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8346328#msg8346328).
Just play Mafia please.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 23, 2022, 12:41:52 am
@ToonyMan: What are YOUR other suspects?I'm only voting Magma, Toaster, or Webadict.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 12:42:51 am
It occurs to me, Toaster, that since you appear not to have read the previous rounds, you don't know that we've already had two setups where scum didn't actually have an immediate kill at all. It is extremely possible that the no-kill was not a choice.I think we should wait for Magma Mater to confirm their action. I will unvote for now.
I don't think Toaster is scum here. I think it's very likely to be Maximum Spin, ToonyMan, or maybe Magma Mater.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 12:44:17 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 12:49:45 am
Knowing that if he said nothing he would be outed as an Ascetic, and fearing this would implicate him as mafia, he made the fake claim to control who targeted him.
Thus, Web's theory of Toaster not putting themselves out there doesn't work since Toaster was going to be outed Day 2 anyways if they stayed quiet.
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 23, 2022, 01:02:25 am
Seriously, the "unknowns" that people are basing the entire game on could both be explained by moderation quirks.
1. The Roden "block" can be explained by either of them not understanding their role / result correctly.
2. The webadict 3rd person can be Max who was blocked but still counts as "targeting".
The most likely scenario here is that y'all are chasing after a couple of red herrings. I don't get why that's difficult to understand for the people in this game. Just play Mafia please.
Toaster and webadict haven't walked back anything they've claimed about what you're suggesting.
How come Web isn't voting?
Yeah!
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 23, 2022, 01:04:26 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:06:18 am
We need to pick somebody. I don't want to screw around and get a no lynch.Toaster or Webadict? Princess Choice
Post by: Magma Mater on January 23, 2022, 01:07:06 am
Toaster
The downside is that Jim will likely die tonight, but that might not be such a terrible thing, given his reads LOL
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:14:08 am
The downside is that Jim will likely die tonight, but that might not be such a terrible thing, given his reads LOL
Hey now, sometimes a player has great reads except one, and that one is you as scum when you're town. It happens. Or are there other issues with Jim's reads?
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 23, 2022, 01:15:02 am
We need to pick somebody. I don't want to screw around and get a no lynch.Toaster or Webadict? Princess Choice
No to Toaster.
I'm okay with webadict, but spoonfeed me with why Magma Mater isn't an option for you.
I don't see why Magma Mater is worth keeping around because he hasn't claimed yet.
If it's between myself, web and Toaster then...
Toaster
The downside is that Jim will likely die tonight, but that might not be such a terrible thing, given his reads LOL
Oh wow a tie :|
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:17:29 am
If it's between myself, web and Toaster then...
Toaster
The downside is that Jim will likely die tonight, but that might not be such a terrible thing, given his reads LOL
Oh wow a tie :|
Roden is voting Toaster, so 3 votes on Toaster. I don't see the tie.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 23, 2022, 01:17:30 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 23, 2022, 01:18:29 am
Roden is voting Toaster, so 3 votes on Toaster. I don't see the tie.
If I have a complaint about this game it would be lack of votecounts.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:19:11 am
+1Roden is voting Toaster, so 3 votes on Toaster. I don't see the tie.
If I have a complaint about this game it would be lack of votecounts.
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 23, 2022, 01:24:06 am
Alright, let's go, EuchreJack. webadict.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:29:08 am
Webadict
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 23, 2022, 01:33:32 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:34:17 am
If it's between myself, web and Toaster then...
Toaster
The downside is that Jim will likely die tonight, but that might not be such a terrible thing, given his reads LOL
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:37:21 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:44:21 am
I generally have been reading Magma as newbie town, a state which I am more familiar with than most.
The refusal to name their role stems from reading that advice somewhere.
The action economy does however make Magma suspicious, if we also believe that Toaster indeed did stop the Mafia Kill by protecting Max instead of preventing Max.
However, if someone is lying, Magma makes more sense.
Ok, I voted, so I'm probably done.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 23, 2022, 01:48:50 am
Toaster since if Magma is town we at least share a POE.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 01:53:42 am
A town player always votes if they feel they are about to be eliminated. It's a giant sign that says Lynch This Guy when I flip Green.
Scum doesn't want to give info, AND their survival depends on offending no one.
Also, you tied the vote Toonyman
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 23, 2022, 01:59:47 am
If I have a complaint about this game it would be lack of votecounts.Right away. In the future of this game, I'll try to get one out per real-life day to make things more clear.
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (3): Maximum Spin, Jim Groovester, EuchreJack
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (1): Toaster
Roden (0):
Jim Groovester (0):
ToonyMan (0):
Magma Mater (0):
Toaster (3): Roden, Magma Mater, ToonyMan
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): webadict
5 to hammer.
Day 2 ends in 1 hour, 2 minutes - 2 AM Central time. Presently, the execution vote is tied, which would result in a no-execution.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 02:40:49 am
Post by: Roden on January 23, 2022, 02:45:09 am
Somebody said I'm not scum hunting, but I am, because I'm certain Toaster is scum and I've been pushing how his role isn't adding up. It's possible Web isn't voting because he wants to tie the vote. Or maybe he's a Mafia Ally and he gains nothing from bussing Toaster. Or Toaster could have the passive necessary to pull off alternative kills. Either way, we 100% need to have an overwhelming majority of votes to avoid ties. Please just vote Toaster, if I'm wrong then you're all free to yell at me post game.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 23, 2022, 02:47:33 am
Please just vote Toaster, if I'm wrong then you're all free to yell at me post game.You know what? Okay.
Toaster
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 02:51:19 am
Please just vote Toaster, if I'm wrong then you're all free to yell at me post game.An offer I can't refuse.
Toaster
Post by: EuchreJack on January 23, 2022, 02:55:31 am
Post by: Roden on January 23, 2022, 03:00:02 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 23, 2022, 03:11:04 am
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (1): Jim Groovester
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (1): Toaster
Roden (0):
Jim Groovester (0):
ToonyMan (0):
Magma Mater (0):
Toaster (5): Roden, Magma Mater, ToonyMan, Maximum Spin, EuchreJack
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (1): webadict
5 to hammer.
For a while, a deadlock remained present within the voting. There were those that suspected Toaster, and those that suspected webadict. However, knowing the consequence of allowing such a state to continue...
The deadlock could not be permitted.
Toaster looked baffled.
"What? Me? You picked me? I am a Warden! You need me - aaaah"
Warden or not, his body met the same fate as the others executed prior. His blood joined the remnants of those who came before, innocent and guilty alike.
As for Toaster himself...
Toaster was Town.
His journals slowly turned to ash, but there were enough scraps from them to appraise his powers - and fear for what would come next.
Quote
Non-Consecutive Investigative-Null Jailkeeper (town):
(Auto) Non-Consecutive: Your psychic will puts too much strain on you if you use it against the same mind multiple times. You cannot use Imprison on the same player two Nights in a row.
(Auto) Investigation Nullification: Thanks to your obscured psychic presence, investigative abilities return NULL RESULT instead of any information gathered from you directly or indirectly.
(Night) Imprison [target]: You lock your target in a psychic barrier, roleblocking them and causing them to be protected from targeted kills during this Night.
Night 2 has begun. Night 2 will end 2 AM Central time, Monday the 24th, or when all Night actions have been submitted to me and I have the time to process them.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 24, 2022, 05:39:35 am
But nonetheless, it was Day.
The Day in which Jim Groovester's innocence was supposed to be proved.
Six people slowly waited for him to arrive, but he never did.
His death and the documents discovered in his room did, in fact, prove his innocence. But what good was the innocence of a violently strangled corpse? The red marks on his neck described his fate for all to see.
Jim Groovester was town.
And undoubtedly, indisputably, innocent. That did not matter now, however.
Quote
Day 3 Innocent (town):
(Auto) Evidence of Innocence: Once you get your documentation sorted out, you can conclusively prove that you’re not a vile traitor. Once Day 3 starts, you will be publicly confirmed to be town-aligned.
Six remained. Starving, exhausted, and sleep-deprived, all surrounded by living darkness barely kept at bay by a fire-blessed lantern.
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (0):
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
Roden (0):
ToonyMan (0):
Magma Mater (0):
No Execution (0):
Not Voting (6): webadict, EuchreJack, Maximum Spin, Roden, ToonyMan, Magma Mater
4 to hammer.
Day 3 has begun. It will end 9 AM Wednesday the 26th, Central time. Some time has been added for ease of day end, both player-side and mod-side.
Post by: Roden on January 24, 2022, 07:21:42 am
I got an innocent result on Max. I'm genuinely so lost. This means there was a 75% chance scum legit tried to NK Max on Night 1. And that the mafia blocked me to stop me from confirming a Null passive instead of blocking literally any other useful action.
Even worse, this means there's a 75% chance that I'm in MELO with Web and Toony and that at least one of them is mafia. I hate it here.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 07:26:07 am
Post by: Roden on January 24, 2022, 07:26:51 am
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 07:34:20 am
What are you?I'm just a man. A man who loves his country.
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 09:02:16 am
Anyway, 1 on Jim Groovester.
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 10:48:11 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 12:18:00 pm
I have a red check on EuchreJack. Since it's mylo I won't vote right away, but that's probably where I'll be placing my vote.
Well, since you think it's MYLO, I won't vote you now. Instead, explain the red check on me?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 12:50:19 pm
Care to tell us whom you neighborized last night?I have a red check on EuchreJack. Since it's mylo I won't vote right away, but that's probably where I'll be placing my vote.
Well, since you think it's MYLO, I won't vote you now. Instead, explain the red check on me?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 12:53:51 pm
Actually, no.Care to tell us whom you neighborized last night?I have a red check on EuchreJack. Since it's mylo I won't vote right away, but that's probably where I'll be placing my vote.
Well, since you think it's MYLO, I won't vote you now. Instead, explain the red check on me?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 12:57:12 pm
It gives all of us one more chance to use our powers before we have to lynch or lose.
If mafia chooses to no kill, even better.
I don't think Max needs to claim unless he got results because the kill of Jim and the Jailkeeping of Max show the most likely outcome is that Mafia tried to kill Max Night 1.
Otherwise, we have a doctor or a scumteam with Max that decided to no-kill.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 12:59:08 pm
So, I think the best strategy is No Lynch.Tell me you're scum with Max, without telling me that you're scum with Max. ???
It gives all of us one more chance to use our powers before we have to lynch or lose.
If mafia chooses to no kill, even better.
I don't think Max needs to claim unless he got results because the kill of Jim and the Jailkeeping of Max show the most likely outcome is that Mafia tried to kill Max Night 1.
Otherwise, we have a doctor or a scumteam with Max that decided to no-kill.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 01:25:23 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 01:35:19 pm
Disregarding the accusation, which is a legit question, what are your thoughts on a No Lynch?Why would I want to no lynch when I have a red check
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 24, 2022, 01:41:57 pm
I got an innocent result on Max. I'm genuinely so lost. This means there was a 75% chance scum legit tried to NK Max on Night 1. And that the mafia blocked me to stop me from confirming a Null passive instead of blocking literally any other useful action.Your result was correct, at least, I'll promise you that.
I can confirm that EuchreJack did neighborize someone successfully, so he couldn't have done the kill without multitasking. Magma, would you care to elaborate on your suspicions? Do you have any actual mechanical information?
So I'm seeing the following...
Roden claims to have copped Maximum Spin
webadict claims to have counted Jim Groovester
Maximum Spin did... something
EuchreJack neighbourized (I know whom)
ToonyMan ?
Magma Mater ?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 24, 2022, 01:57:07 pm
My N2 claim:
I did something last night.
@Jack:
I don't think Max needs to claim unless he got results because the kill of Jim and the Jailkeeping of Max show the most likely outcome is that Mafia tried to kill Max Night 1.Besides that, Roden is 75% clearing them.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 24, 2022, 02:10:41 pm
My N2 claim:Neat, me too.
I did something last night.
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 02:14:14 pm
Also, why am I not being suspected anymore?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 02:15:52 pm
So... It's Magma Mater and ToonyMan?Oh, you are being suspected. Just not as much.
Also, why am I not being suspected anymore?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 02:20:44 pm
So it goes Magma, Roden, Web in order from most to least suspicious.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 02:21:57 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 02:27:55 pm
just claim your target jack so that we can all move on with our lives, thanks.No. I don't cave in to mafia demands.
If you were town (which you aren't) you would be respecting this, Mr. No Claim.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 02:31:53 pm
you've claimed neighborizer. in what world does someone with a town PoV have anything to gain by withholding their target?just claim your target jack so that we can all move on with our lives, thanks.No. I don't cave in to mafia demands.
If you were town (which you aren't) you would be respecting this, Mr. No Claim.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 24, 2022, 02:34:50 pm
you've claimed neighborizer. in what world does someone with a town PoV have anything to gain by withholding their target?This one. Trust me on this.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 02:37:06 pm
you were blocked the night of a no-kill, and you want me to trust you LOLyou've claimed neighborizer. in what world does someone with a town PoV have anything to gain by withholding their target?This one. Trust me on this.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 24, 2022, 02:41:08 pm
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 02:44:03 pm
Max did in fact tell me what he did last night.Yes, I see that. I am not entirely sure why, but I assume that the ringing in my ears is my fillings picking up radio waves, and not my Tinnitus flaring up.So... It's Magma Mater and ToonyMan?Oh, you are being suspected. Just not as much.
Also, why am I not being suspected anymore?
O overlords, please feed us poor beleaguered fools some morsels.
just claim your target jack so that we can all move on with our lives, thanks.'Twasn't I. I can hear a voice in my head, and it's not Euchre's.
Also, he just said Roden was suspicious, so either Roden is the world's worst negotiator, or the radio fell into ToonyMan's dictatorial grasp, and I will be executed shortly under the hellish regime that has formed. I only request that a state funeral be held.
Anyway, for real, if Max is cleared, it probably not Euchre and Max, so it really is between us three. Neither Roden nor I can be confirmed, so if you have a confirmable action, you should literally claim it, Magma. It only hurts you to not do so.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 24, 2022, 02:44:07 pm
Roden is town
Max is 75% town
Jack is most likely town
Magma and Web are the mafia
If I assume Magma is town and telling the truth:
Magma is town
Roden and Web is probably town
Max is probably mafia
Jack is mafia
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 02:47:01 pm
Why would Max be cleared? Who is he cleared by?Max did in fact tell me what he did last night.Yes, I see that. I am not entirely sure why, but I assume that the ringing in my ears is my fillings picking up radio waves, and not my Tinnitus flaring up.So... It's Magma Mater and ToonyMan?Oh, you are being suspected. Just not as much.
Also, why am I not being suspected anymore?
O overlords, please feed us poor beleaguered fools some morsels.just claim your target jack so that we can all move on with our lives, thanks.'Twasn't I. I can hear a voice in my head, and it's not Euchre's.
Also, he just said Roden was suspicious, so either Roden is the world's worst negotiator, or the radio fell into ToonyMan's dictatorial grasp, and I will be executed shortly under the hellish regime that has formed. I only request that a state funeral be held.
Anyway, for real, if Max is cleared, it probably not Euchre and Max, so it really is between us three. Neither Roden nor I can be confirmed, so if you have a confirmable action, you should literally claim it, Magma. It only hurts you to not do so.
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 02:49:16 pm
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 02:50:43 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 02:53:56 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 02:56:49 pm
Anyway, I was blocked last night. The red check is the realization that Jack used two actions on night one. Even from the PoV of other people, I don't think there's any possibility other than Jack being the person who blocked Roden night one. This is something we should have realized yesterday, but I was too stubborn in my thinking that there was an error of some sort at play.Would you mind running through your theory for the benefit of those who aren't me, at the very least?
I for one did NOT use two actions ever. But I'd like to hear your theory, and if you want the votes you'll need to convince others as well.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 02:59:08 pm
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 03:02:41 pm
Anyway, I was blocked last night. The red check is the realization that Jack used two actions on night one. Even from the PoV of other people, I don't think there's any possibility other than Jack being the person who blocked Roden night one. This is something we should have realized yesterday, but I was too stubborn in my thinking that there was an error of some sort at play.I see. So then you think it's Max and Euchre or Euchre and Toony (But not Max and Toony)? Because that theory relies on you thinking Roden and I are both Town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 24, 2022, 03:11:57 pm
I see. So then you think it's Max and Euchre or Euchre and Toony (But not Max and Toony)? Because that theory relies on you thinking Roden and I are both Town.It honestly can't be Euchre and Toony unless you believe one of the following:
1) They chose to nokill for no discernible purpose despite allegedly having multitasking
2) The kill is delayed/evens only/something else (it's possible, in theory, that the action you counted on Jim wasn't actually the kill, for example)
3) Magma really is claiming doctor and protected the true victim, in which case he should fess up already
or 4) they inexplicably decided to both choose me as their neighborizer dupe and try to kill me at the same time, since I was the only person confirmably unkillable that night.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 24, 2022, 03:52:57 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 03:59:54 pm
Magma Mater: Ninja ??, targeted ?? n1, blocked n2.
Roden: Unreliable Cop, blocked n1, green on Max n2.
webadict: Motion Detector, saw 3 on EuchreJack n1, saw 1 on Jim n2.
ToonyMan: Unreliable Inventor, gave ?? to EuchreJack n1, gave ?? to ?? n2.
Maximum Spin: ??, blocked n1, did ?? n2.
EuchreJack: 2-shot Neighborizer, targeted Maximum Spin n1, targeted ?? n2.
From these claims, I think it's nearly confirmed to everyone that there is a mafia roleblocker. For there to not be a mafia roleblocker, you have to assume that Roden and I are both mafia. To assume that, you have to believe that Roden was given a useless Cop role (we know that he has this role, since there were multiple millers) as mafia. I think you'd have to take a pretty big leap in judgement to believe this.
Ahhh shit I have to go, but posting this so that I have it on my PC later.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 04:00:38 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 04:02:32 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 24, 2022, 04:12:35 pm
From these claims, I think it's nearly confirmed to everyone that there is a mafia roleblocker. For there to not be a mafia roleblocker, you have to assume that Roden and I are both mafia. To assume that, you have to believe that Roden was given a useless Cop role (we know that he has this role, since there were multiple millers) as mafia. I think you'd have to take a pretty big leap in judgement to believe this.Well, I got bad news for you, kid.
Roden's a damn liar. He sure didn't get a clear result on me last night because I'm a tracker, and I know he visited webadict instead.
Class, who can tell me what we do to liars in this game? I appreciate the gesture of clearing me, but no, you go in the pit.
And since Roden is indeed a liar, there's no reason to believe he got roleblocked last night either, which means there's no reason to believe you're getting roleblocked now, Magma.
Anyway, let's remember that Toaster's auto applied to all investigative abilities, so probably also mine (and another that I... know exists...), while it's entirely possible that NJW's was just there to provoke the traditional d1 miller claim with the effect that it did, indeed, have. I think it's just more likely that Roden claimed unreliable cop for exactly the reasons I stated on d1, which statement was probably also the reason I would've been the n1 kill target.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 24, 2022, 04:37:14 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 05:47:08 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 06:08:36 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on January 24, 2022, 06:12:55 pm
I want to hear Roden's response to Max. It's become clear Magma doesn't have a red check on Jack.
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 06:46:45 pm
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2022, 09:27:25 pm
How's everyone doing?
Post by: Roden on January 24, 2022, 10:01:36 pm
Oh my God. Thank you, this just made the game so much easier.From these claims, I think it's nearly confirmed to everyone that there is a mafia roleblocker. For there to not be a mafia roleblocker, you have to assume that Roden and I are both mafia. To assume that, you have to believe that Roden was given a useless Cop role (we know that he has this role, since there were multiple millers) as mafia. I think you'd have to take a pretty big leap in judgement to believe this.Well, I got bad news for you, kid.
Roden's a damn liar. He sure didn't get a clear result on me last night because I'm a tracker, and I know he visited webadict instead.
Class, who can tell me what we do to liars in this game? I appreciate the gesture of clearing me, but no, you go in the pit.
And since Roden is indeed a liar, there's no reason to believe he got roleblocked last night either, which means there's no reason to believe you're getting roleblocked now, Magma.
Anyway, let's remember that Toaster's auto applied to all investigative abilities, so probably also mine (and another that I... know exists...), while it's entirely possible that NJW's was just there to provoke the traditional d1 miller claim with the effect that it did, indeed, have. I think it's just more likely that Roden claimed unreliable cop for exactly the reasons I stated on d1, which statement was probably also the reason I would've been the n1 kill target.
So, I know I wasn't Redirected, because my result specifically says that Max is town-aligned. I don't think a Framer type role can exist in this set up either, that seems a little too bastard-y. So I think Max is just lying about his claim and is confirmed scum. And of course I got unlucky and rolled the 25% inaccuracy.
But what I don't understand is the logic of this play. Obviously I'm a pretty good target to scapegoat after I fucked up with the Toaster elim, but still. I don't understand the logic of fake claiming that I targeted Web. Or why Max thinks targeting Web would make me scum when Jim is the one who died. Or why he "Tracked" me in the first place tbh.
The other issue I have is why Max didn't want to claim Tracker beforehand. Why the hesitance in claiming that until now?
Post by: Roden on January 24, 2022, 10:09:22 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 24, 2022, 11:31:39 pm
1) I suggested that Max track Roden. Dunno if Max was going to do so anyway.
2) I told Max to not claim Day 2. Figured it would be more powerful if Max kept quiet about his role until he actually got to use it (since Max was blocked Day 1).
3) I thought it might be best for the New Neighbor to remain silent for as long as possible.
So yeah, blaming Max is somewhat incorrect.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 24, 2022, 11:38:20 pm
The only real assumption you need to make is that I am not lying about being a ninja.
I need to go to bed, and also I need to think about this for a bit. If the game is solved for me, that would be pretty great.
Post by: Roden on January 25, 2022, 12:25:27 am
I'll take some responsibility here.Thanks for the answers Jack, but this raises even more questions.
1) I suggested that Max track Roden. Dunno if Max was going to do so anyway.
2) I told Max to not claim Day 2. Figured it would be more powerful if Max kept quiet about his role until he actually got to use it (since Max was blocked Day 1).
3) I thought it might be best for the New Neighbor to remain silent for as long as possible.
So yeah, blaming Max is somewhat incorrect.
What made you suggest tracking me? And why do you feel it's pro-town to hide who the third neighbor is?
I think that Max just mech locked himself as scum with that claim LOLThat's how it looks, I just don't understand why he did this. He basically turned a really scary and vague Final 6 MELO into a straightforward 1v1 (or 2v1, technically). Because with this claim, he's proven that I didn't do the kill since he only saw me target Web. And by saying a scum Roleblocker doesn't exist and accusing you of being my partner, that means you would've had to have done the kill. Except you're claiming Ninja, and Web wouldn't be able to see it. And isn't pushing you to claim your role or who you targeted. It doesn't add up.
The only real assumption you need to make is that I am not lying about being a ninja.
I need to go to bed, and also I need to think about this for a bit. If the game is solved for me, that would be pretty great.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 25, 2022, 12:30:43 am
But what I don't understand is the logic of this play. Obviously I'm a pretty good target to scapegoat after I fucked up with the Toaster elim, but still. I don't understand the logic of fake claiming that I targeted Web. Or why Max thinks targeting Web would make me scum when Jim is the one who died. Or why he "Tracked" me in the first place tbh.Well, it's really simple: You targeted Web. I assume Magma killed Jim. Based on the available information, maybe it could be someone else - you could even be teamed with web if you're actually a lawyer or inventor or something else who would want to target your teammate - but I don't think so, because the roleblock Magma claimed isn't coming from anywhere unless you are specifically teamed with webadict and there's multitasking on the kill. Given that I know this actual version of the events last night:
EuchreJack neighborized the Mythical Third Neighbor
ToonyMan gave me Bulletproof
Maximum Spin tracked Roden
Roden targeted webadict
webadict can't be confirmed by me
Magma can't be confirmed by me
--- it therefore is necessary that there is either multitasking (and I know you didn't!) or one of webadict or Magma did the kill. And, well, webadict claimed. Even if he's lying, he would have had to multitask to roleblock Magma.
Soooo, ToonyMan, webadict, it's down to the two of you. Who will you follow? EuchreJack and the MTN actually want a no-lynch here. If that happens, scum basically have to target ONE of the Neighbors to prevent fighting a three-vote bloc tomorrow, right? This is why the MTN has been asked to stay quiet. I have Bulletproof and targeting me would prove I'm telling the truth anyway. Targeting EuchreJack is almost as bad in terms of proving me right. I mean, I hope I can count on you both to agree that, if EuchreJack dies, I'm as good as cleared. That said... if both of you agree to trust me on this one, and I recognise that's a lot to ask, then we can skip all that and put this to bed now. Well, we still have to lynch the other partner tomorrow, but it's so obviously Magma that I don't even care.
Except you're claiming Ninja, and Web wouldn't be able to see it. And isn't pushing you to claim your role or who you targeted. It doesn't add up.You do have a history of doing this. That is to say, making a really obvious logical error and hoping nobody will point it out. Obviously, Magma isn't actually a ninja. He's the only one who said so.
Post by: webadict on January 25, 2022, 12:36:52 am
So, basically, there's a couple of different choices here, but really, it's whether I think Max or Roden is lying. If Max is lying, there are a number of people that can be matched with Max, and the missing kill on Night 1 is really grating on me.
However, there's actually a little bit of hint in Maximum Spin's words here:
I have no idea. Thanks for roleblocking me, though.This bit was worrying me for some time, because I assumed it was a negative thing he attempted to perform (On EuchreJack, as he said.)
[...]
Anyway, EuchreJack has convinced me that he's either town or absolutely stupid, and I don't think he's absolutely stupid.
If he thought EuchreJack was Town, why thank Toaster? But, him claiming Tracker actually does make sense: It didn't matter that he was blocked, because he already knew who his target had targeted.
It's a bit of a complication, in that, if Maximum Spin is scum, he definitely was blocked, and if he's not, he is fine either way. That's the tough part.
Roden claimed second, which really does put a lot of Towncred on Roden, and for the most part, that claim has been maintained throughout the game.This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
There's a bit of a complication, though, for Roden, besides the current situation, which is N1:
Hmmm...ok. But something isn't adding up.Roden claims the Roleblock on N1. Assuming that Roden is scum, this might be an explanation to the no-kill on N1, as Roden attempted to kill Maximum Spin, who was protected. It doesn't really make sense for Roden to claim being blocked, though. It is a complication measure that hasn't been explained.
I targeted Toaster last night but was also Roleblocked. I thought he might've been lying and was actually just Ascetic, but you're also claiming that you were Roleblocked. My Unreliable passive can't cause my action to fail either, I was specifically told something else caused it to fail. This is why I asked if you targeted Toaster.
Toaster can still be Ascetic I guess, since I don't know how we both could've been blocked here otherwise. But I'm just not sure why he would lie about his role if he's town. Then again, I'm not sure why anyone would waste their Roleblock on me just to stop me from confirming that Toaster is Null to investigations.
Why did you target Jack, btw?
Roden also claims targeting Maximum Spin N2, which is another complication measure.
Honestly, I think I'd probably vote Roden in this situation, with the assumption that the Roleblocker doesn't exist. What would you say to that, Roden? If Maximum Spin is scum, who's his partner? Work through it with me.
PPE: I'll think about it more tomorrow, but it's possible this is a trap set by Maximum Spin? I'm a bit sleepy, but this could be a neat trap to test if Magma and I are scum. I'm not really in a rush to vote yet, because there's still plenty of time, so let's just think about it until then.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 25, 2022, 09:05:33 am
From your PoV, the only possible scenario in which Roden and I are scum, is the scenario in which these things have happened:
1. Roden took an enormous risk and fakeclaimed Cop directly after the miller claimed, hoping there would be no counterclaim. Also, we have a miller and a null-miller with no town cop.
2. I took a pointless risk by fakeclaiming ninja, which could easily have been verified by the already-claimed town motion detector.
3. On night one, Roden and I targeted Jack with something, and tried to kill Max.
4. On night two, Roden targeted you with something, and I killed Jim.
5. Roden fakeclaimed being blocked night one because he wasn't sure what kind of cop result he'd get on Toaster (actually plausible).
6. Roden fakeclaimed targeting Max instead of web for ?? reasons.
On the other hand, for Max and Jack to be mafia, the following things must be true:
1. Max was blocked on night one, preventing the kill.
2. Jack blocked Roden night one, causing three motion detection pings.
3. Jack used a real neighborizer shot on Max night one.
4. Jack blocked Magma night two.
I think that, from your point of view, the simplest explanation is really just that Max and Jack are the scum team.
From my own point of view, Roden is always town. If he targeted web, then the partner both blocked me AND killed Jim. However, all the other claims have been confirmed. The action economy doesn't allow for it, unless someone's running around like Santa visiting 3 houses in a night.
Post by: webadict on January 25, 2022, 10:33:13 am
1. It's not entirely impossible for Roden to be a scum Cop. I do think that's not very likely, but it's partially why it's hard to think Roden is scum.
2. You could very well be a scum Ninja, so this isn't too risky at all. Combined with the fact that you haven't fully claimed your role, this isn't exactly a point I consider.
3. This point is incorrect: One Night 1, one of you could've targeted Maximum Spin and the other targeted EuchreJack. If you're a Ninja, then you would have been Max's potential killer, OR no kill was performed, for whatever reason.
4. This would have to be true, assuming no Multitasking. In this case, Roden could be a Role Cop. However, this fails because Roden still would've targeted Maximum Spin or ToonyMan, so Roden's role would be entirely unknown in this case.
5. This is true. The real kicker was asking Maximum Spin if Max also targeted Toaster, to see if investigative roles were essentially roleblocked. This makes either assumption pretty decent, but there does appear to be genuine confusion about it.
6. In this situation, it was likely assumed I would be voted out next, so allowing for Max to be cleared was a safer bet than red checking me. This also opens up some obfuscation in case there is another Day Tomorrow.
For Max's list:
You forgot that ToonyMan is also probably Neighborized, but yes, this is essentially true. In this case, EuchreJack is a Multitasker Neighborizer Roleblocker, which is the easier explanation.
To me, it seems as though ToonyMan would be a person to convince here, as well, but a lot of the explanations have been going to me. This is concerning for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that ToonyMan is very much wrapped up in his chat. It does seem like No Launch would be a beneficial vote for either party, unless there is a Delayer.
I think, if your perspective is true, then you two have no reason to not vote Maximum Spin or No Launch. Of course, I'm really only saying this because I want to be cleared, but it seems odd that you wouldn't consider me being the Roleblocker, as this perfectly covers all the bases: Max kills N1, I RB Roden, Max kills N2, I RB you. In this case, Max and I are the scumteam, AND it's even easier than EuchreJack + Maximim Spin. But, really, this is a forcing play on you. You need to convince one of ToonyMan or EuchreJack to also agree with you (or both of them if you accept I'm scum) that Maximum Spin is scum, or you need to No Launch. Those are the options as I see them.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 25, 2022, 12:12:05 pm
For your list:1. If Roden is a scum cop, he claims the null result on Toaster IMO. He also simply targets Max on n2 if his plan is to claim to have targeted Max. The only reason for him to be lying about his target is if he is a scum role other than cop.
1. It's not entirely impossible for Roden to be a scum Cop. I do think that's not very likely, but it's partially why it's hard to think Roden is scum.
2. You could very well be a scum Ninja, so this isn't too risky at all. Combined with the fact that you haven't fully claimed your role, this isn't exactly a point I consider.
3. This point is incorrect: One Night 1, one of you could've targeted Maximum Spin and the other targeted EuchreJack. If you're a Ninja, then you would have been Max's potential killer, OR no kill was performed, for whatever reason.
4. This would have to be true, assuming no Multitasking. In this case, Roden could be a Role Cop. However, this fails because Roden still would've targeted Maximum Spin or ToonyMan, so Roden's role would be entirely unknown in this case.
5. This is true. The real kicker was asking Maximum Spin if Max also targeted Toaster, to see if investigative roles were essentially roleblocked. This makes either assumption pretty decent, but there does appear to be genuine confusion about it.
6. In this situation, it was likely assumed I would be voted out next, so allowing for Max to be cleared was a safer bet than red checking me. This also opens up some obfuscation in case there is another Day Tomorrow.
2. You saw one person visit Jim - the person who killed him. Toaster is claiming that Roden did not kill Jim. Therefore, it's not possible for me to be a scum Ninja from your PoV.
3. I meant to say that either I or Roden targeted Jack, and either I or Roden sent a kill on Max.
4. Even if you assume that there are multitaskers, Max's tracker claim locks these actions as the only possibility if Roden and I are scum together.
To me, it seems as though ToonyMan would be a person to convince here, as well, but a lot of the explanations have been going to me. This is concerning for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that ToonyMan is very much wrapped up in his chat. It does seem like No Launch would be a beneficial vote for either party, unless there is a Delayer.I'm explaining to you because you said that you might vote for Roden, even though he's unlikely to be scum specifically from your PoV.
I think, if your perspective is true, then you two have no reason to not vote Maximum Spin or No Launch. Of course, I'm really only saying this because I want to be cleared, but it seems odd that you wouldn't consider me being the Roleblocker, as this perfectly covers all the bases: Max kills N1, I RB Roden, Max kills N2, I RB you. In this case, Max and I are the scumteam, AND it's even easier than EuchreJack + Maximim Spin. But, really, this is a forcing play on you. You need to convince one of ToonyMan or EuchreJack to also agree with you (or both of them if you accept I'm scum) that Maximum Spin is scum, or you need to No Launch. Those are the options as I see them.
I do agree that a nolynch might be beneficial, although I seriously doubt there would be a kill at this point.
I have considered you as roleblocker. However, from a setup design perspective, I think that a town motion detector works nicely with my role. I also think that if you're not a motion detector, you've taken a significant risk with your claim (for example, what if Jack had claimed to neighborize Jim? What if Toony had given him the bulletproof vest?) etc. I also think your play has been more townie than Jack's. I'm also not totally thinking about it because as you said, it's an easy vote for me today.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 25, 2022, 12:13:48 pm
@EuchreJack, what did Toony give you n1? Why didn't you use it?
@Toony, why did you give Max a bulletproof vest?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 25, 2022, 02:36:52 pm
You'll find out what Toonyman gave me...when I use it. Not before.
Why is Mr. No Claim asking me this?
Post by: Magma Mater on January 25, 2022, 02:42:14 pm
I wanted to add my second neighbor before using the device.@Toony, in your mind, was Jack justified in doing this? Is your invention less useful than a neighbor?
You'll find out what Toonyman gave me...when I use it. Not before.
Why is Mr. No Claim asking me this?
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 25, 2022, 03:10:05 pm
Lol, are you fishing to try to figure out whether ToonyMan is the MTN?I wanted to add my second neighbor before using the device.@Toony, in your mind, was Jack justified in doing this? Is your invention less useful than a neighbor?
You'll find out what Toonyman gave me...when I use it. Not before.
Why is Mr. No Claim asking me this?
The true neighborhood is the friends we made along the way, Magma.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 25, 2022, 03:17:07 pm
If I've interpreted his posts correctly, Toony has already claimed he was neighborized.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 25, 2022, 04:19:40 pm
@Toony, why did you give Max a bulletproof vest?Because I believed mafia tried to kill him on N1 for some reason and would want to do it again. I could have given the BP to Jim, but I overthought it. I did something similar in the Gnosia game here as the Guardian Angel.
I don't know, maybe.I wanted to add my second neighbor before using the device.@Toony, in your mind, was Jack justified in doing this? Is your invention less useful than a neighbor?
You'll find out what Toonyman gave me...when I use it. Not before.
Why is Mr. No Claim asking me this?
Roden and Max have conflicting claims which means one of them is probably mafia. I've felt both Roden and Max were town this whole game so I can't confidently say I know who to vote here. I walked into today thinking the mafia were Magma and Webadict, however Max's claim throws extensive doubt on Roden. I think it's unlikely mafia win if we no-lynch and I think that is how we raise our chances of winning.
No Lynch
Post by: Roden on January 25, 2022, 05:55:52 pm
Maximum Spin
Post by: Roden on January 25, 2022, 06:24:39 pm
Post by: Magma Mater on January 25, 2022, 06:38:10 pm
Also Magma you might want to claim, it's not like you're dying tonight if we no lynch.exactly, so no point claiming before tomorrow 8)
Post by: Roden on January 25, 2022, 07:05:54 pm
There's a bit of a complication, though, for Roden, besides the current situation, which is N1:The Roleblock N1 is proven to come from scum though? I made it clear I was targeting Toaster, and the first thing I claimed D2 was that I targeted Toaster, before anyone else made a single claim. If I was scum, I would've risked getting contradicted by town claims. If I was Roleblocked by town, I wouldn't show up on the motion count you gave and town would claim it by now. The only possible thing you could claim is that Magma fake claimed Ninja (??? What?) and I used Multi-Tasking to target both Toaster and Max.Hmmm...ok. But something isn't adding up.Roden claims the Roleblock on N1. Assuming that Roden is scum, this might be an explanation to the no-kill on N1, as Roden attempted to kill Maximum Spin, who was protected. It doesn't really make sense for Roden to claim being blocked, though. It is a complication measure that hasn't been explained.
I targeted Toaster last night but was also Roleblocked. I thought he might've been lying and was actually just Ascetic, but you're also claiming that you were Roleblocked. My Unreliable passive can't cause my action to fail either, I was specifically told something else caused it to fail. This is why I asked if you targeted Toaster.
Toaster can still be Ascetic I guess, since I don't know how we both could've been blocked here otherwise. But I'm just not sure why he would lie about his role if he's town. Then again, I'm not sure why anyone would waste their Roleblock on me just to stop me from confirming that Toaster is Null to investigations.
Why did you target Jack, btw?
Roden also claims targeting Maximum Spin N2, which is another complication measure.
Honestly, I think I'd probably vote Roden in this situation, with the assumption that the Roleblocker doesn't exist. What would you say to that, Roden? If Maximum Spin is scum, who's his partner? Work through it with me.
PPE: I'll think about it more tomorrow, but it's possible this is a trap set by Maximum Spin? I'm a bit sleepy, but this could be a neat trap to test if Magma and I are scum. I'm not really in a rush to vote yet, because there's still plenty of time, so let's just think about it until then.
...But why would I do that? Why do I kill Max here? He was already almost eliminated D1, and if I really wanted to mis-elim him I would've just followed Toaster on his accusation and suggested Max was mafia and voted him out. There's literally zero reason to even pretend to doubt Toaster's claim there, I never would've voted against him. It just doesn't make sense to try to NK him N1. Why wouldn't I kill Jim, the IC? Why wouldn't I kill you, the Motion Detector who could catch me if I was Multitasking? Why wouldn't I kill Toony, who not only claimed Inventor but who I know is deadly to try to go up against if we aren't aligned, especially after there were four games in a row where we weren't aligned and it was a massive struggle to deal with him each time?
Post by: Roden on January 25, 2022, 07:14:04 pm
Do you plan to no lynch today?Also Magma you might want to claim, it's not like you're dying tonight if we no lynch.exactly, so no point claiming before tomorrow 8)
Post by: Magma Mater on January 25, 2022, 07:28:56 pm
I'd prefer to kill Max, honestly. I don't see myself reevaluating after a nolynch.Do you plan to no lynch today?Also Magma you might want to claim, it's not like you're dying tonight if we no lynch.exactly, so no point claiming before tomorrow 8)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 25, 2022, 09:29:14 pm
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (0):
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (1): Roden
Roden (1): Maximum Spin
ToonyMan (0):
Magma Mater (0):
No Execution (1): ToonyMan
Not Voting (3): webadict, EuchreJack, Magma Mater
4 to hammer.
One said to wait. Two others accused each other. Three more turned away.
The Night approached.
Day 3 will end at 9 AM, tomorrow - Central time, or on a hammer. Presently, the vote is tied.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 25, 2022, 09:33:04 pm
Post by: Roden on January 25, 2022, 10:29:36 pm
Toony/Jack this is especially important because one of you is getting pocketed in the hood. I assume Toony has to actually be in it because he's literally game throwing at this point if he isn't and won't deny it. I'm actually just getting annoyed at this point since we potentially lose today and everybody in the hood not named confscum Max is just fence sitting.
Post by: Roden on January 25, 2022, 10:33:34 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on January 25, 2022, 10:36:14 pm
So yes, if I were to vote someone today it would be you, Roden.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 25, 2022, 10:56:52 pm
Post by: webadict on January 25, 2022, 11:07:26 pm
... I'm gonna get shit for this if I'm wrong, and I'm gonna deserve it.
Maximum Spin.
Post by: webadict on January 25, 2022, 11:11:29 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 25, 2022, 11:19:13 pm
Alright, I apologize for being busy.Are you kidding me.
... I'm gonna get shit for this if I'm wrong, and I'm gonna deserve it.
Maximum Spin.
I look forward to giving you shit, forever. I will never stop.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 25, 2022, 11:28:56 pm
I'm also going to say that I don't think it's EuchreJack, and that it's probably ToonyMan, but I think I die Tonight either way.Nobody dies tonight if you're wrong, the game will probably end before then. So good job.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 25, 2022, 11:34:48 pm
Four to Hammer.
I think Roden is full of shit, sorry Roden.
Magma is suspicious, but not quite as nonsensical.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 25, 2022, 11:37:00 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 25, 2022, 11:40:37 pm
Alright, I apologize for being busy.
... I'm gonna get shit for this if I'm wrong, and I'm gonna deserve it.
Maximum Spin.
Mind explaining?
You know me, always suspicious. Just because Max is in the Neighborhood, doesn't mean I'm not getting played.
Although, I do think Max is town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 26, 2022, 12:11:06 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:28:24 am
I know it was by Mafia, as nobody has taken credit for it.
But Webadict, you know it was Not Max. And I know it was Not Toonyman.
@Web: If you're afraid we're both primed, should you not be voting Roden?
I've gotten in trouble with this before, but I think Web's second vote on Max means At Least One Mafia in Web, Max, or Roden.
Otherwise, Mafia hammers for the win. Since Web knows this, it's likely not Web.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 12:31:11 am
I don't know what to say today. No-lynching is logically better here than trying to vote someone who might be scum. I'm like 90% sure Max is the legit one here which makes you mafia Roden, but I'm not willing to throw the game over that when we could learn more tonight.Why do you think Max is legit? You didn't answer any of my questions.
So yes, if I were to vote someone today it would be you, Roden.
I'm totally open to no-lynch, to be clear.Yes, we all know you want Web dead.
No Lynch, so now tied and thus No Lynch?If you think I'm full of shit then why not vote me instead of No Lynch?
Four to Hammer.
I think Roden is full of shit, sorry Roden.
Magma is suspicious, but not quite as nonsensical.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:35:40 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:36:53 am
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 12:41:41 am
webadict, how about this. I'm going to track you tonight to prove that I can track. Don't claim your target until I do.You can be a Tracker and still be Mafia.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 12:42:52 am
25% chance of being Town is enough risk not to make it worthwhile. I just wish you'd explain yourself better. I couldn't even read your last "theory".
"25% chance of town" is a joke on your ability, which I think is fake.What?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:47:06 am
I mean honestly when Max revealed in the Neighborhood that he was just a Tracker, I was disappointed.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:52:42 am
I'm surprised others don't want to use their stuff before ELO and avoid a less informative MLO.
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 01:02:38 am
I don't see why not. To me, there are a few issues.Alright, I apologize for being busy.
... I'm gonna get shit for this if I'm wrong, and I'm gonna deserve it.
Maximum Spin.
Mind explaining?
You know me, always suspicious. Just because Max is in the Neighborhood, doesn't mean I'm not getting played.
Although, I do think Max is town.
The first is that Maximum Spin seemed fine with a No Launch when he's certain that it's Roden, which is a bit of a deviation from his behavior on D2. This is not that big of a deal, since it's probably Mylo, which is definitely a fair excuse. It's minor, but I can't ignore it because I die Tonight, and that absolutely leaves an imbalance that I think is tipped by Maximum Spin and ToonyMan having privy access to you. No Launch certainly seems intuitively the right answer, but that doesn't answer what the actions that haven't been identified do are. It's very possible we're actually in Elo and don't know it. So, I'm taking a gamble.
The second is that I'm voting to see if Magma actually believes that Maximum Spin is scum. There isn't a team I can build out of anyone except Max and Euchre/Toony or Roden and Magma. None of the other teams work, and out of the two of those, the one that seems most plausible is the one that Max is on. Max made a convincing point that it's likely not Toony and Euchre, so I've eliminated that possibility for now. I'm making a play that confirms that the scumteam is one of those two in a somewhat risky manner. This means that there are no quickhammer possibilities, so long as I've correctly narrowed down the possibilities, and it also puts Magma in a spot that they need to convince the last Townie, and if they can't do that, then it's game over anyway.
The third is that Roden seems very convinced in their attitude, and if they're scum, they are playing it really close to the chest, and they've really improved. Certainly possible. Perhaps I overestimate Max and Toony's skill (or underestimate Roden's), and that will lead to my downfall, and if that's the case, it'll be determined tomorrow, but I'm pretty confident in their scum ability.
The fourth is that ToonyMan is very much playing reserved here, as Roden pointed out, and I think Roden is correct. I believe that Toony should absolutely be trying to solve this. Maximum Spin certainly has a solid reason to vote Roden, but it definitely looks as though he needs two people to follow up on that. It feels forceful.
And the final issue is my fifth point: I'm actually not 100% sure it's ToonyMan. Or you. But, sitting back and waiting for them to solve this is gonna do nothing. Heck, maybe it's Magma? But, if I read Roden right, and I think I do, then Maximum Spin has to be lying.
As for my preference for No Lynch, I'd rather use Toony's gift before making a vote that could end the game.Sometimes, you gotta aim high. I probably die Tonight unless ToonyMan has an extra vest in his bag of goodies, so I'm gonna put out what I think before I do. I think it's probably Max and Toony, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
I'm surprised others don't want to use their stuff before ELO and avoid a less informative MLO.
webadict, how about this. I'm going to track you tonight to prove that I can track. Don't claim your target until I do.That would prove you're a Tracker, but might not necessarily prove you're Town. But, I'm like 99% sure I die Tonight either way, so it's not necessarily a bad plan.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 01:05:20 am
@Roden: Isn't it true that Day 1 Max claimed to have a powerful role?That doesn't mean much tbh, you claimed you had a powerful role before and ended up being a Sandwich Vendor, lol. Why do you trust the Tracker claim but not the Cop claim when we have two Millers and a Motion Detector? And why do you think Max would be a higher priority target to me over anyone else?
I mean honestly when Max revealed in the Neighborhood that he was just a Tracker, I was disappointed.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 01:11:15 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 01:16:49 am
Mafia can always fake a Cop claim, because they know who is town!
Faking Tracker requires either reporting on your scum buddy's movements or having some other investigation role.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 01:19:01 am
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 01:23:56 am
It's harder to fake a tracker claim than a cop claim.Jack...Max only has one Tracker result, and he's using it to say I targeted Web instead of himself. Even disregarding how that's his only reason to think I'm scum and doesn't even implicate me in Jim's death, he has no real proof of his results.
Mafia can always fake a Cop claim, because they know who is town!
Faking Tracker requires either reporting on your scum buddy's movements or having some other investigation role.
Let me ask you something else. When did he claim I targeted Web? Before or after Web claimed his results? And did he ever mention his results in your hood chat?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 01:26:23 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 26, 2022, 01:28:24 am
Perhaps I overestimate Max and Toony's skill (or underestimate Roden's), and that will lead to my downfall, and if that's the case, it'll be determined tomorrow, but I'm pretty confident in their scum ability.I'm being completely honest and speaking entirely outside the game when I say that this means a lot. However (back inside the game)... if you feel such confidence... why would I have done this? Surely I could've claimed I tracked Magma, or you, or anyone else to Jim. Tracking Roden to you doesn't even answer what action actually took place or, on its own, prove anyone's alignment, and removes the only thing ostensibly confirming me town. I could have just said... "oops, guess Toaster was just misinformed after all, but hey, look, [anyone else] is the killer!", especially since I waited till last to claim and explicitly asked people to claim before me. (I actually did this because of the non-conclusiveness of the result, as I wanted to give Roden the chance to convince me he was just doing a town play... he did not)
I know I bring some of this suspicion on myself since I like to half-brag about doing crazy gambits, but this isn't even a crazy gambit, this would just be a huge waste of time compared to the alternatives. I wouldn't waste the effort bringing the game to the crux of you personally picking who to believe if there were easier options available.
For the record, I'm okay with a no-lynch because the neighborhood convinced me that it's the best play. I was worried about it originally, but I realized that the mafia are actually in zugzwang here anyway and can't strictly improve their position in a no-lynch.
Oof, my bad, that was Tric. I think the general point still stands that claiming to have a powerful role =/= actually having a powerful role. And even then that doesn't explain why I would try to NK Max instead of the IC claim.I actually never did claim to have a powerful role. I just said it was "useful". I didn't mean for people to read that much into it.
The reason you tried to NK me is twofold: One, I pointed out the trick of the UC claim, and explicitly identified the way to foil it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=178730.msg8345535#msg8345535) Two, you probably figured someone would protect Jim, just like actually happened in the game when we were scum together and decided to take out an IC Jim first night, just a handful of weeks ago. You couldn't have expected Toaster would end up doing his toasty thing instead. You were really lucky he took it completely the wrong way and fell into your lap like that (and yes, I acknowledge it's my fault for assuming he would know better as town, too).
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 01:34:00 am
Let me ask you something else. When did he claim I targeted Web? Before or after Web claimed his results? And did he ever mention his results in your hood chat?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 01:37:00 am
I'll respond in a bit Max, I just need these questions answered first.Let me ask you something else. When did he claim I targeted Web? Before or after Web claimed his results? And did he ever mention his results in your hood chat?
Max claimed the tracker results in the Neighborhood after Web gave his results. Past Noon on the 24th, so point Roden
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 26, 2022, 01:39:16 am
Max claimed the tracker results in the Neighborhood after Web gave his results. Past Noon on the 24th, so point Roden(Actually, a minor point: You know that I didn't actually understand that web was giving his results until after you said so, some time after I gave mine. I guess I could have faked that, but it would be pretty weird.)
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 01:50:48 am
Max claimed the tracker results in the Neighborhood after Web gave his results. Past Noon on the 24th, so point Roden(Actually, a minor point: You know that I didn't actually understand that web was giving his results until after you said so, some time after I gave mine. I guess I could have faked that, but it would be pretty weird.)
I did have to point it out to Max one hour after Max gave his tracker results in the Neighborhood. Point to Max
Post by: Magma Mater on January 26, 2022, 02:05:38 am
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 02:23:16 am
Ok, that's all the proof I need then. Max claimed his results before Web claimed his. And who did Web claim to target? Jim.Max claimed the tracker results in the Neighborhood after Web gave his results. Past Noon on the 24th, so point Roden(Actually, a minor point: You know that I didn't actually understand that web was giving his results until after you said so, some time after I gave mine. I guess I could have faked that, but it would be pretty weird.)
See, the problem with his claim is that he made a very specific choice. He waited until almost everyone else claimed results, and even though I claimed to have targeted Max as the very first post of the day, he did not immediately contradict me. In fact, he told me my results were correct.
This does not look at all like someone that "knows" I'm lying. There isn't any surprise, not even a "are you sure you did that" type of statement. He accepts the clear and moves on. He then goes on to ask what everyone else's actions were without giving his own results. What reason could he possibly have to want to know what everyone else did first when he apparently already caught me in a lie?I got an innocent result on Max. I'm genuinely so lost. This means there was a 75% chance scum legit tried to NK Max on Night 1. And that the mafia blocked me to stop me from confirming a Null passive instead of blocking literally any other useful action.Your result was correct, at least, I'll promise you that.
I can confirm that EuchreJack did neighborize someone successfully, so he couldn't have done the kill without multitasking. Magma, would you care to elaborate on your suspicions? Do you have any actual mechanical information?
So I'm seeing the following...
Roden claims to have copped Maximum Spin
webadict claims to have counted Jim Groovester
Maximum Spin did... something
EuchreJack neighbourized (I know whom)
ToonyMan ?
Magma Mater ?
If you need to know the reason, it has to do with Web. If Web ever claimed more than one person (besides himself) targeted Jim, then it would clear me if Max tried to claim I targeted Jim. No matter how much Max could try to convince everyone that I'm the one who killed Jim, if it was known that two or more people targeted Jim and nobody spoke up, then it couldn't be me since only the mafia wouldn't want to admit they targeted the dead. His result of Tracking me would essentially be confirmed to be a lie. So all he can do is try to say he saw me target a different person than who I claimed. But, again, he does not even question my Cop check on him. The first thing out of his mouth should've been that I was lying, but he doesn't say it.
Tbh the most obvious reason his results are a lie is that he's claiming I targeted Web at all. Like...why would I target Web? Why would I lie about targeting Web and claim that first before anyone else said anything? Even in past games where I was mafia, I truthfully told who I targeted even when it couldn't be proven, so why would I lie now when I know it could be easily disproved? There's so many little things that don't add up about the claim.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 02:28:06 am
Frankly, I think Roden is a Role Cop. It would explain the missing visitor on me and why Web was visited Night 2.I'm sorry, what? Why do I target a claimed Motion Detector? Why do I target a claimed Neighborizer? Why wouldn't I target Toony to find out what his inventions are? Why wouldn't I target Magma or Max to find out what their roles were ahead of time? I feel like this just proves I'm not a Rolecop and that I never targeted you or Web. Those are literally the least useful targets I could've picked as a Rolecop.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 02:30:15 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 02:45:19 am
In fact, Max only claimed AT ALL because he so desperately wanted to do so.
My advice was to not mention it and secretly track Roden N3.
Can anybody reasonably explain why an Inventor who claims on Day 1 doesn't get Rolecop'd, doesn't get Roleblocked, and doesn't get NK'd?I assume its because Toony said it was 50% reliable, or otherwise implied that his inventions had a decent chance of not working.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 02:54:21 am
Max held off primarily because I advised him to hold off. It was my gambit, not Max's.Holding off on mentioning it isn't a gambit though. I gave my info in post 1, there's nothing to gambit on.
In fact, Max only claimed AT ALL because he so desperately wanted to do so.
My advice was to not mention it and secretly track Roden N3.Can anybody reasonably explain why an Inventor who claims on Day 1 doesn't get Rolecop'd, doesn't get Roleblocked, and doesn't get NK'd?I assume its because Toony said it was 50% reliable, or otherwise implied that his inventions had a decent chance of not working.
So you're telling me that I, as mafia, blindly believe the Inventor claim, don't bother to check if he's actually 50% effective, see Toony entirely as a non-threat, and instead Rolecop you to confirm that you're a Neighborizer, and Rolecop Web to confirm that he's a Motion Detector?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 06:17:47 am
Toony, if your n1 invention is relevant at all you should prob claim it. I won't believe anything Jack claims it to be if you die lolIt goes bang bang.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 06:43:39 am
Post by: Magma Mater on January 26, 2022, 07:32:28 am
Maximum SpinToony, if your n1 invention is relevant at all you should prob claim it. I won't believe anything Jack claims it to be if you die lolIt goes bang bang.
We lose if we nolynch then. Why did you wait so long to claim this??
Post by: Magma Mater on January 26, 2022, 07:50:23 am
EuchreJack, if you're town, I hope you know enough to not shoot anyone.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 07:54:23 am
Maximum Spin
Hammertime
Post by: Magma Mater on January 26, 2022, 08:24:17 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 08:28:12 am
And no, town can't win anymore.
Post by: Magma Mater on January 26, 2022, 08:39:13 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 08:48:14 am
For example, why would town!Toony stay quiet during mylo? That was a good reasoning based on behavior, not mechanics. I don't know if this game was entirely fair, you'll have to judge that when it's over, but I think it shows it's better to not overly rely on unknown mechanics of a closed setup game.
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 09:06:02 am
Throwing the game with a bad mech solve is a terrible habit of mine. I do it so often I even have a meme about how often I do it.This game wasn't mech solvable.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 26, 2022, 09:43:35 am
God damn it. Well played. I should have just stuck with my d2 reads instead of trying to mech solve. :(Were you seriously town this whole time? My god, you gave Roden so much help...
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 09:48:29 am
Roden was ALSO Town.God damn it. Well played. I should have just stuck with my d2 reads instead of trying to mech solve. :(Were you seriously town this whole time? My god, you gave Roden so much help...
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 26, 2022, 10:37:16 am
Roden was ALSO Town....
Then why...?
Did Fallacy stop making redirects obvious and not bother to tell anyone?
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 10:39:13 am
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 11:36:26 am
Mafia can have ninjas too.It was not entirely fair for Town, and this wasn't even the half of it.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 11:50:42 am
I have a bulletproof vest. Dunno if rolestopper, redirector, or doctor in surviving town hands. If not, town loses night phase.
Toony gave me the vest, so I'm not getting shot or disclosing anything not already known to Mafia Toonyman.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 11:53:04 am
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 11:53:42 am
Don't really mind the Town loss if at least someone learns that lesson.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 11:54:26 am
We're going to block Magma again and kill Roden tonight, so that's why I'm confident this is over.But what if Roden was lying?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 11:55:05 am
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 11:58:38 am
But I don't think Roden is lying.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 11:59:18 am
But yeah, I made some mistakes with Toonyman.
New Rule: Lynch Toonyman Day 1, ok?
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 11:59:56 am
It's true, if Roden is carrying a gun or something then FoU will have to let the game progress.
But I don't think Roden is lying.
But you KNOW Roden is lying because Max is Town.
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 12:02:10 pm
Roden wasn't lying. Roden did target me.It's true, if Roden is carrying a gun or something then FoU will have to let the game progress.
But I don't think Roden is lying.
But you KNOW Roden is lying because Max is Town.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 12:03:23 pm
I wish I had explained this better, but one reason to keep some info confidential in The Neighborhood is that should that info be leaked, it shows one neighbor is probably scum.I realized this which is why I only told Web I got a radio and barely told him anything.
But yeah, I made some mistakes with Toonyman.
New Rule: Lynch Toonyman Day 1, ok?
Roden is 100% a 75% cop.It's true, if Roden is carrying a gun or something then FoU will have to let the game progress.
But I don't think Roden is lying.
But you KNOW Roden is lying because Max is Town.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 12:04:23 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:05:28 pm
But Roden SAID he targeted Max. So Roden lied. Roden never admitted to targeting Web.Roden wasn't lying. Roden did target me.It's true, if Roden is carrying a gun or something then FoU will have to let the game progress.
But I don't think Roden is lying.
But you KNOW Roden is lying because Max is Town.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:06:19 pm
I'm fucking throwing.
I got an innocent result on Max. I'm genuinely so lost. This means there was a 75% chance scum legit tried to NK Max on Night 1. And that the mafia blocked me to stop me from confirming a Null passive instead of blocking literally any other useful action.
Even worse, this means there's a 75% chance that I'm in MELO with Web and Toony and that at least one of them is mafia. I hate it here.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 12:07:15 pm
We have ninja redirecting.But Roden SAID he targeted Max. So Roden lied. Roden never admitted to targeting Web.Roden wasn't lying. Roden did target me.It's true, if Roden is carrying a gun or something then FoU will have to let the game progress.
But I don't think Roden is lying.
But you KNOW Roden is lying because Max is Town.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:12:05 pm
So your claim is that Web (not you, unless you got Multi as well) Ninja Redirected a 75% Cop onto his Mafia self.We have ninja redirecting.But Roden SAID he targeted Max. So Roden lied. Roden never admitted to targeting Web.Roden wasn't lying. Roden did target me.It's true, if Roden is carrying a gun or something then FoU will have to let the game progress.
But I don't think Roden is lying.
But you KNOW Roden is lying because Max is Town.
Ah, so the Guilty would fall on Max.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:14:00 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:14:25 pm
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 12:15:14 pm
It... is potentially fair? I would say that it's potentially Bastardy and scum-sided, but you will see the setup soon. I think I played pretty poorly D2 and was only successful because Toony did some last minute saving of me. But, if I didn't have Ninja redirection, I think the 75% Cop also was possibly Bastardy, as was the Tracker for reasons you aren't aware of yet.
There was lots of variance possible in this game, and a lot of it was removed BECAUSE massclaiming on Day 1 reeeeeally hurt Town.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:17:17 pm
1) Killed Jim
2) Gave EJ a Spyglass
3) Roleblocker Magma
4) Redirect Roden
(Assuming Web lied about Motion Detector)
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:20:03 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 12:20:54 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 26, 2022, 12:55:11 pm
Quote from: Votecount
webadict (0):
EuchreJack (0):
Maximum Spin (4): webadict, Roden, Magma Mater, ToonyMan
Roden (0):
ToonyMan (0):
Magma Mater (0):
No Execution (2): EuchreJack, Maximum Spin
Not Voting (0):
4 to hammer.
Maximum Spin looked around nervously. "Come on guys. Now isn't the right time for this. If you're so sure I'm trying to kill you all you can wait until tomorrow, right?"
And similarly to before, the overconfidence of the innocents was their undoing.
ToonyMan pushed, smiling with a wicked grin.
Maximum Spin was Town.
Quote
Tracker (town):
(Night) Track [target]: You follow your target stealthily, tracking them with your keen eyes, and learn who (if anybody) they visited this Night.
"The ritual is complete."
Time accelerated. One by one the remaining innocents withered to ash.
EuchreJack was Town. Roden was Town. Magma Mater was Town.
Quote
2-Shot Neighborizer (town):
(2-Shot, Night) Neighborize [target]: You possess a set of portable radios, which give you access to a private chat which may be used at any time while you still live. During the Night you may give another player one of these radios to give them equal access to this chat.
Quote
75% Cop (town):
(Auto) Unreliable: The spirits do not always show the true nature of things. 25% of the time, Inspect will return the opposite of the result it would have had. A town alignment will appear to be mafia and traitors - mafia and mafia-allies - will appear to be town.
(Night) Inspect [target]: You see through the eyes of the fallen spirits of this cursed realm and learn your target’s alignment.
Quote
Ninja Bodyguard (town):
(Auto) Ninja Training: Your stealthy garb and precision of movement ensure that Track and Follow abilities fail if used on you and Watch and Voyeur abilities do not detect you.
(Night) Protect [target]: You use your protective training to protect your target, preventing kill actions from killing them this Night. However, this has a cost - if you successfully save them from a kill, you die in their place.
Slowly, The Demon's puppets looked at one another, then at the shattered clock. Shattered time. The ritual was complete, but there were still other times in other worlds. There was more to do, wasn't there?
It was so tempting to stay and watch the beauty of the end, but they could not.
They knew they could not.
webadict was Mafia. ToonyMan was Mafia.
Quote
Concealed Busdriver (mafia):
(Night) Drive [target1/self][target2]: You sunder the world, altering casualty such that the targeting placed upon your first target and your second target is switched. You may affect yourself with this ability. Players whose targets are changed by this ability are deceived by your corruptive elements, and are not told that their targeting was changed.
Quote
Inventor (mafia):
(Night) Invent [self/target]: You give your target a cursed ability infused with demonic essence from your list of inventions - you may freely choose which one to give, but you cannot select the same one more than once. Additionally, you may choose to make an invention for yourself, and inventions will not appear in a death roleflip.Quote from: Inventions Reference:(1-Shot, Auto) Bulletproof: This hefty vest protects you from one kill action targeted at you.
(1-Shot, Night) Follow [target]: This spyglass allows you to discern the nature of your target’s activities, causing you to learn what category their action this Night occupied from the set of Investigative, Interference, Lethal, Other. If they perform no action, you receive a result of ‘Other’.
(1-Shot, Auto) Multitasking: This stimulant allows you to take one additional action during a Night of your choice, so long as that additional action does not target the same player or players as your first action.
(1-Shot, Auto) Strengthen: This lucky charm allows you to choose for your actions to be unaffected by action interference for one Night of your choice. For example: protection would not stop a kill you used, roleblocking you would do nothing, and redirection would not change your target.
Round Over. The mafia (webadict and ToonyMan) have won.
Game Over.
(Post-mortem incoming.)
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 01:01:45 pm
Sorry, I forgot how unprepared I am for these quickfire Fallacy games, I'm always getting wiped out by work just as the game activity reaches it's peak.
Somebody said I'm not scum hunting, but I am, because I'm certain Toaster is scum and I've been pushing how his role isn't adding up. It's possible Web isn't voting because he wants to tie the vote. Or maybe he's a Mafia Ally and he gains nothing from bussing Toaster. Or Toaster could have the passive necessary to pull off alternative kills. Either way, we 100% need to have an overwhelming majority of votes to avoid ties. Please just vote Toaster, if I'm wrong then you're all free to yell at me post game.
@Roden: Promises must be fulfilled.
I believe Toaster and Max can join in, since the game is over.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 01:05:22 pm
Our mafia kill was a roleblock PLUS kill. So it made it look like we had 3 actions at night.
And it was multitasking...for some reason. That part is pretty OP in my opinion.
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 01:10:44 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 26, 2022, 01:21:08 pm
Yes, the Mafia was much more powerful than average. Considering in the previous four rounds mafia won once and town won three times, I figured shifting things was reasonable enough.
Were they too powerful?
The balance was a little unreasonable, yes. But not by much. A lot of it came from the custom scum kill. Similar to the last three rounds, a lethal ability was created for the scum to use to kill. (Round 1 there was just a kill.) Round 2 had a lovers-effect granting ability, Round 3 was just a weaker kill honestly, and Round 4 was poisoning. I think if I just removed or limited the free-multitasking aspect of the kill, it would have been perfectly fine.
I think I also should have either improved Roden's accuracy (80% was another value I was considering), upped Magma's role to full Doctor, or both.
Jim just claiming his role was a factor I didn't consider, as well. Maybe if I made him a Miller or gave him Macho? Ah well.
What's up with webadict's role?
In the mod post that NJW linked, where I said by default players would be told if they were redirected, I also said that a variant ability could change that. webadict's role had a variant ability.
Was the town doomed to failure?
No.
Did the town lose because of the mafia's roles?
Also no. If anything the mafia's roles barely contributed.
Why did the town lose?
Because you lost your strongest players early on, the mafia played exceedingly well in the day game, and you kept mob-executing people including during MYLO.
Maximum Spin was so close to figuring out something was up with redirection thanks to catching Roden visiting webadict, but in the end he decided Roden was just lying instead.
Now, without further ado.
Spoiler: The Setup (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Actions (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 01:33:09 pm
@Magma: What do you think?
I gave too much agency to Toonyman in exchange for the stuff. It should have been my decision whether or not to reveal what I got.
Although, Mafia inventor giving out a Vest makes sense, since they know the won't be shooting that person and Bulletproof is a claim by scum to explain why they're not being killed.
Apparently, I'm a bit of a moron, hence becoming Mafia's chosen.
I should have known I was in trouble when Jim started complementing me. Jim as Town knows nothing.
I also know that I'm actually quite good at reading Toonyman. I was suspicious for meta reasons at various points.
I'm a little less sure I can read Web. While I suspected him Day 2, I had almost town cleared him Day 3.
@Roden: Please try to be a little less impulsive, regardless of your alignment. It would help a lot. It's a long game. Rushing it just means losing.
@Max: Good play overall. Next time you probably won't get a radio. While it was fun working together on a private chat, I think we could get similar results without.
@Toaster: Sorry for killing you. That was actually quite poor play on my part.
@NJW: Ditto.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 01:41:01 pm
But hey, the last 4 rounds tended to weigh heavily toward Tow, including the practically unwinnable For Scum Round 2, so it's a fitting end.
By my calculations, NJW is our Winner. Roden is second place with Toonyman. I'll give Web Token Third as I bet he'd have gotten (at least) there if he'd played all the games.
The rest of us will form an orderly mob and Lynch Fallacy.
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 26, 2022, 03:20:01 pm
@Max: Good play overall. Next time you probably won't get a radio. While it was fun working together on a private chat, I think we could get similar results without.I am completely sure that we could repeatedly get tricked into making bad decisions and jointly swing 100% of all lynches the wrong way with or without a private chat, yes.
Anyway, EuchreJack, don't be too hard on yourself, you really only have to take the blame for lynching NJW. Toaster, Roden, Magma, and I lost this game between ourselves, all making exactly the same mistake.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 26, 2022, 03:26:31 pm
ninja fruit vendor is a fakeclaim, it's a nonsense role.fucking finally someone gets it
NJW2000
I don't like the vote on Roden, and I don't like the vote on Toaster. I don't think that either make a lot of sense from your PoV if you're town.
Scumreading Roden especially is... you're supposedly a miller, how do you not town-read the cop claim??
NJW2000, someone break the tie, plz
Eh, I can congratulate Web for NJW's Lynch.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 05:19:57 pm
It's fine that the game wasn't mech solvable but I feel like we should've been told ahead of time that the game would have bastard elements. Knowing that changes your mindset around solving and doesn't default your thinking to "our results contradict each other so the other person has to be lying". Because as it was Toony or Web could have literally scum claimed and I'd be more likely to think they're Jester. Like the entire time Max kept saying I was lying about who I targeted, something felt off about it but I didn't have any reason to think he himself wasn't lying due to what was established. He had every reason to think I was lying as well and even thought I was scum after the hammer just because nothing else made sense to him and he had no reason to think he couldn't trust his results.
Still, GG to Toony and Web, you guys got your second chance and took revenge.
Post by: Roden on January 26, 2022, 05:34:14 pm
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 05:39:25 pm
The Toaster elim was 100% me throwing though since we almost voted out Web instead. That one really bothers me...Yeah, I definitely thought I was dead there, especially because I was typing a reply... And then fell asleep, so I never posted it.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 06:17:54 pm
The Toaster elim was 100% me throwing though since we almost voted out Web instead. That one really bothers me...I was sweating, trust me. Especially when Jim was pushing for Web and Jack joined them.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 26, 2022, 07:08:37 pm
Tbh not much to say about that last game, I will reread it but haven't yet. Don't be too hard on yourself for lynching the miller, that was partially me second-guessing the setup incorrectly by taking a lighter risk earlier in the game, rather than risking being copped and having to self-vote to protect the cop role. Thanks to FoU for running all this. If there's a moral of the last couple of games, it's that town needs to rely on more than mechanical analysis. See y'all in future games!
Post by: Magma Mater on January 26, 2022, 09:14:50 pm
@Jack if you had neighborized me n1, I think the game would have gone a lot differently. I had a strong town-read on you d2 and if we had a channel together it's very possible we'd've gotten around to agreeing on either web or Toony.
Although that's just speculation... it's nice to believe things would have gone better if we had done things slightly differently. :P
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 26, 2022, 09:24:22 pm
I don't feel great about offing NJW2000 or being after Magma Mater most of the game, but my feelings regarding webadict and to a lesser extent ToonyMan had some merit.
The Toaster elim was 100% me throwing though since we almost voted out Web instead. That one really bothers me...I was sweating, trust me. Especially when Jim was pushing for Web and Jack joined them.
I should have pressed you on that. It did not go unnoticed.
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 09:30:37 pm
I don't think this game was lost in the setup phase or the night phase. I think back to Magic Mafia and that setup may have favored the scum team in that one, but town absolutely had a chance to win that one, and I think the town fell into the same trap in that game as they did this game of focusing too much on the setup and the night results over just lynching the scummy dude.Yeah, we had thrice as much reason to go after you on N2 because we figured you'd actually lead the Town in a better direction, and being confirmed would've overridden EuchreJack, plus you seemed like you had gotten a good read on the scum at that point. It was vitally necessary to remove you at that point.
I don't feel great about offing NJW2000 or being after Magma Mater most of the game, but my feelings regarding webadict and to a lesser extent ToonyMan had some merit.The Toaster elim was 100% me throwing though since we almost voted out Web instead. That one really bothers me...I was sweating, trust me. Especially when Jim was pushing for Web and Jack joined them.
I should have pressed you on that. It did not go unnoticed.
Post by: Toaster on January 26, 2022, 09:32:04 pm
Toony, what's your list on me? I'm curious how much it matches my own list on me- that chiefly I become way more passive when I have access to a group chat.
Post by: Jim Groovester on January 26, 2022, 09:36:39 pm
Yeah, we had thrice as much reason to go after you on N2 because we figured you'd actually lead the Town in a better direction, and being confirmed would've overridden EuchreJack, plus you seemed like you had gotten a good read on the scum at that point. It was vitally necessary to remove you at that point.
Maybe if I had gotten Magma Mater on Day 2 and definitely if I had gotten you on Day 2 I might've been able to figure it out. Toaster was a terrible Day 2 choice as losing him also meant losing me.
Is there a scum chat link anywhere so that I can
Oh, well. Good game.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 26, 2022, 09:47:28 pm
Toony, what's your list on me? I'm curious how much it matches my own list on me- that chiefly I become way more passive when I have access to a group chat.I had none! I made it up!
Is there a scum chat link anywhere so that I canI don't know how to link Discord chats.flatter myself by seeing what you say about melook it over?
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2022, 11:16:48 pm
I didn't do very well, myself. I put too much faith in me stopping the kill via block instead of the protect half, and I didn't nearly push Toony hard enough, who I scumread the whole game. That block on Roden I knew should have cleared him, but I started second guessing myself then becoming unable to push myself to do something about it. Oh well.If you want my list, yes, passivity is definitely a scumtell of yours, but it's actually a bit better to say that you're more passionate as Town. There's an element that you can't quite fake as scum that you get as Town, that tends to get you labelled as scum for reasons.
Toony, what's your list on me? I'm curious how much it matches my own list on me- that chiefly I become way more passive when I have access to a group chat.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 27, 2022, 02:05:35 pm
Or alternatively, post a link to them and let us Graffiti them before someone not me archives them?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 27, 2022, 03:33:35 pm
Neighbor Chat (https://discord.gg/wQ7unshRhj)
Mafia Chat (https://discord.gg/uRSxzvsg5Z)
I'll probably lock the private chats in a few days. Post-game comments are allowed in the meantime.