Before someone brings up Fahrenheit nonsense, water boiling at 212° and freezing at 32° is every bit as arbitrary as the current system and it wouldn't help clarifying it at all. There's a reason Celsius has substituted the Fahrenheit scale everywhere else
I concur. Celsius FTW!
As was stated by Toady?, magically cold objects could suck more energy out of the normal-temp environment than they could at scientifically possible temps, so he has possible temp values of sub-|0| to simulate this.
I can't help but feel that celsius would be the dumbest of the options. A uint for Kelvin would be nice (or a float, or uint for 10ths of a kelvin or whatever). Or Farenheit, which is more familiar to most Americans. As the game is in English, there's more potential players familiar with that scale. Plus, I'm selfish and don't like Celsius for anything except talking about water.BAD BAD BAD! The US's denial of the SI system to cling to the obsolete English system is one reason most of the world thinks the US is stupid. America must abandon the English system, lest it fall into being a minor country of little importance. And really, English is taught everwhere. Making the game use Fahrenheit for modding would hurt more people than it would help.
As the game is in English, there's more potential players familiar with that scale.
If we're interested in reducing arbitrariness, then it seems like using a uint16 in Kelvin is the best.
Though when I think about it more I'd actually like the game not to tell me the exact temperature but rather give me the sort of information my dwarves or adventurers would be likely to have - like "freezing cold" or "hot" or something like that.That's what it will do anyway. The question is about the unit used in the raws. Celsius and Fahrenheit are both arbitrary and annoying to convert to for their respective users, but at least Celsius has the virture of offering an easy to remember point of reference (freezing and boiling water) in addition to be readily convertable to Kelvin, if need be.
What would be nice is if we could do the scaling in Fahrenheit and Celcius.That is brilliant. Having the game use the same scale, but allowing the raws to work in a way so that 35 oC is read as 10067.
So instead of [HOMEOTHERM:10067] would work as well [HOMEOTHERM:35C].
I recommend unsigned somthing, definitely decimals, using Kelvin.Why not have that and what Heph said?
I recommend unsigned somthing, definitely decimals, using Kelvin.
I like the Urist scale. It makes things seem dwarfy rather then "american" or "european"SI is the International System (excepted by scientists and citizens the world over), not European.
I like the Urist scale. It makes things seem dwarfy rather then "american" or "european"SI is the International System (excepted by scientists and citizens the world over), not European.
values below absolute zero are highly unlikely to come up, as are values so high they'd reduce everything in a kilometer of the site to plasma
I like the Urist scale. It makes things seem dwarfy rather then "american" or "european"SI is the International System (accepted by scientists and citizens the world over), not European.
There, all of you happy? Also, I find it childish that Americans are considered stupid for using a system every bit as arbitrary as the preferred method. I'm sure some third-world country will adopt Kelvin for their daily life and berate the world for using such a cruse measurement as Celsius.Celsius is based on the boiling point and freezing point of water using multiples of 10 to represent the values. Kelvin is just Celsius plus 273 so that the lowest temperature, absolute zero, actually has a value of zero rather than -273. Fahrenheit was based on the highest and lowest temperatures known at the time it was developed, with a totally random value used for the highest number.
While I agree America should probably go to SI for most things, do remember that CELSIUS IS NOT SI. IT DOES NOT UTILIZE PREFIXES, SUCH AS KILO AND CENTI.1) Temperatures don't get high enough or low enough to merit centi and kilo degrees. That's far more absurd.
[. . .]
As for DF? Toady uses Fahrenheit in his day to day life. That should be enough reason for him to stick to it. He's already state that he adds the ridiculously high number to it in order to allow for magically low temperatures in the future (and don't tell me that temperatures lower than 0 kelvin are absurd... if temperature is the measure of molecular movement, and 0 is no movement, negative numbers could represent zero movement plus additional inertia to prevent attempted movement).
- An unsigned integer based on Kelvin is not desirable due to the magic system wanting to be able to make temperatures that are "below absolute zero."
- An unsigned integer based on Kelvin is not desirable due to the magic system wanting to be able to make temperatures that are "below absolute zero."
Wait, what? WHY in God's name would even magic need something colder than 'zero molecular movement'?
Negative Molecular Movement.
- An unsigned integer based on Kelvin is not desirable due to the magic system wanting to be able to make temperatures that are "below absolute zero."
Wait, what? WHY in God's name would even magic need something colder than 'zero molecular movement'?
Because...it's magic![/list]
- Floating point math is slower than integer math.
- Conversion between floating point and integer is very slow.
Wait, what? WHY in God's name would even magic need something colder than 'zero molecular movement'?
- Floating point math is slower than integer math.
- Conversion between floating point and integer is very slow.
That was a while ago. The cycle count for integer and floating point operations are the same on principally all modern CPUs. If you can get some modern game code you'll see that they use almost only floating points.
People, or Toady?
Seems like specific heat should cover most of it
When was the poll on this? I was never asked. Don't say things like that, Legolord, unless you know for sure. SO START A POLL! GO.It's not opinion, it's statistics. DF is not a very talkative game, so anyone who doesn't speak much English who would otherwise be able to play it can easily just learn a few terms and play on; there are several people from non-English countries on this forum, if you look around. SI is the international system, and lives up to that name by being used internationally. Even with countries that do speak English, more of them use SI than there are those that don't.
Also, nearly all formulas used in physics and chemistry that involve temperature use Celsius or Kelvin, and inserting Fahrenheit would throw off the answers completely, which is part of why F is considered arbitrary.
Specific heat is so misapplied. A nice simple example, take a tray of water (500ml) at room temperature (72F/22.2C) and place it in a freezer at (31F/-0.5C) . Record how long it takes for that water to completely turn to ice. Next place an identical tray of water into a vat of liquid nitrogen, record how long it takes that water to turn to ice.
Also, nearly all formulas used in physics and chemistry that involve temperature use Celsius or Kelvin, and inserting Fahrenheit would throw off the answers completely, which is part of why F is considered arbitrary.
I'm pretty sure that is totally untrue...
That doesn't mean the formulas don't work, it just means there's a conversion factor that people can forget. That's like saying that the formula for acceleration due to gravity changes depending on whether you're using feet or meters.Also, nearly all formulas used in physics and chemistry that involve temperature use Celsius or Kelvin, and inserting Fahrenheit would throw off the answers completely, which is part of why F is considered arbitrary.
I'm pretty sure that is totally untrue...
Except when it causes space shuttles to explode.
Oh yes, it will work if you have a conversion factor. But all that does is convert Fahrenheit to whatever unit is appropriate before running it through the rest of the equation. I you use the ideal gas law to find the temperature of a gas, your answer will always be Kelvin scale.That doesn't mean the formulas don't work, it just means there's a conversion factor that people can forget. That's like saying that the formula for acceleration due to gravity changes depending on whether you're using feet or meters.Also, nearly all formulas used in physics and chemistry that involve temperature use Celsius or Kelvin, and inserting Fahrenheit would throw off the answers completely, which is part of why F is considered arbitrary.
I'm pretty sure that is totally untrue...
Except when it causes space shuttles to explode.
Well, I'm a selfish European player that would really prefer Celsius. ;)
Because, you know, it is always good to have more things that could go wrong in critical systems. Yeah, let's use a conversion function in our equations rather than use a consistent unit set! :)Oh yes, it will work if you have a conversion factor. But all that does is convert Fahrenheit to whatever unit is appropriate before running it through the rest of the equation. I you use the ideal gas law to find the temperature of a gas, your answer will always be Kelvin scale.That doesn't mean the formulas don't work, it just means there's a conversion factor that people can forget. That's like saying that the formula for acceleration due to gravity changes depending on whether you're using feet or meters.Also, nearly all formulas used in physics and chemistry that involve temperature use Celsius or Kelvin, and inserting Fahrenheit would throw off the answers completely, which is part of why F is considered arbitrary.
I'm pretty sure that is totally untrue...
Except when it causes space shuttles to explode.
Because, you know, it is always good to have more things that could go wrong in critical systems. Yeah, let's use a conversion function in our equations rather than use a consistent unit set! :)Yeah, that was kind of my point.
Anywhoo, that previous suggestion about suffixing your unit in the raw was good.Yeah, I'm really not sure how this thread kept going after someone said "how about this?"
Oh yes, it will work if you have a conversion factor. But all that does is convert Fahrenheit to whatever unit is appropriate before running it through the rest of the equation. I you use the ideal gas law to find the temperature of a gas, your answer will always be Kelvin scale.That doesn't mean the formulas don't work, it just means there's a conversion factor that people can forget. That's like saying that the formula for acceleration due to gravity changes depending on whether you're using feet or meters.Also, nearly all formulas used in physics and chemistry that involve temperature use Celsius or Kelvin, and inserting Fahrenheit would throw off the answers completely, which is part of why F is considered arbitrary.
I'm pretty sure that is totally untrue...
Except when it causes space shuttles to explode.
There is a good argument against using non-SI measurements: they make shuttles crash.It was more a problem with human stupidity. That's generally a bit harder to control for than notation conventions.
A vote for Centigrade.
While nothing below -273C makes sense, neither does anything above 6,000C. We don't need to recover the low end of a signed int16 any more than we need to use the high end. And I don't see any point to fractional temps since they'll never come into play in a meaningful way.
Centigrade is the most common and straightforward measure, results in the least hassle, and at least simplifies some things in the code by simply looking for the high bit to see if water should be freezing or liquid.
DF should use whatver units it wants, and allow for the raws to support multiple units.Read it! >:(
It is simple:
Step 1: Take the temperature required for a 1x1x1 cube to freeze a 100x100x100 cube in a single frame, and call that 0.
Step 2: Take the temperature required for a 1x1x1 cube to melt a 100x100x100 cube in a single frame, and call that1100.
Step 3: Store temperature as abinarysigned numberinteger, it will save on processing power...Step 4: Have fun!
Well, I'm a selfish European player that would really prefer Celsius. ;)
I did. Why make it harder to distribute mods when each one may use a different set of units? Why introduce that kind of code complexity when we're talking about a linear scaling from one to the other? Why open up the possibility that someone will pick a totally stupid set of units that overflows and crashes DF? Do we really want Toady to add code that will constantly convert among an arbitrary number of temperature scales when everyone already complains about the processor load of running temperature as it is?DF should use whatver units it wants, and allow for the raws to support multiple units.Read it! >:(
I did. Why make it harder to distribute mods when each one may use a different set of units? Why introduce that kind of code complexity when we're talking about a linear scaling from one to the other? Why open up the possibility that someone will pick a totally stupid set of units that overflows and crashes DF? Do we really want Toady to add code that will constantly convert among an arbitrary number of temperature scales when everyone already complains about the processor load of running temperature as it is?
I did. Why make it harder to distribute mods when each one may use a different set of units? Why introduce that kind of code complexity when we're talking about a linear scaling from one to the other? Why open up the possibility that someone will pick a totally stupid set of units that overflows and crashes DF? Do we really want Toady to add code that will constantly convert among an arbitrary number of temperature scales when everyone already complains about the processor load of running temperature as it is?
Um... read it again; none of what you just said was in the proposal - what was proposed was to use one scale (maybe the one in use now, maybe something with smaller units for precision, who cares) internally within DF, and convert it from a fixed set of scales (C, F, and K) _once_ when reading from the raws. I.e. nothing changed internally but [HOMEOTHERM:99F] is equivalent to [HOMEOTHERM:10067].
Fair enough. But it still doesn't address dealing with multiple units across mods
Well, I'm a selfish European player that would really prefer Celsius. ;)Well, I'm a selfish Canadian player that would really prefer Celsius. ;)
A uniform standard would be the best I think.
online conversion of all kinds of units (http://www.thomasglobal.nl/tools/Default.asp?bhcp=1)
A uniform standard would be the best I think.
online conversion of all kinds of units (http://www.thomasglobal.nl/tools/Default.asp?bhcp=1)
I had a look at this and it doesn't seem to convert my own imaginary units(Hey, there is nothing wrong with imagining units...)...
Converting at all would probably invalidate all previous data files
Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold. This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.
Just how does this simplify temperature in DF modding? The whole point of this is to make modding easier.A uniform standard would be the best I think.
online conversion of all kinds of units (http://www.thomasglobal.nl/tools/Default.asp?bhcp=1)
I had a look at this and it doesn't seem to convert my own imaginary units(Hey, there is nothing wrong with imagining units...)...
Converting at all would probably invalidate all previous data files, and possibly saved games/maps too, if it was me I wouldn't want the risk unless it was tacked onto an already major update. if it was changed then there are two options, use a familiar measurment, or use a D.F. measurement. As for the familiar ones, Fahrenheit is only advantageous to those who are familiar with it, Celsius is only advantageous to those who are familiar with it and those who want to manipulate water, and Kelvin is only advantageous to those who don't want negatives, or want to deal with 0 Kelvin.
A system developed specifically for dwarf fortress could be very useful, it is a fictional environment which can have it's own laws. The melting point of magma could be lower then the melting point of water, water could be a liquid when cold, then as heat is applied it could turn into a gas, and then a solid, and all of this could occur at whatever arbitrary temperature is chosen. The more that Dwarf Fortress differs from familiar conditions the greater the extent to which a familiar temperature scale will be misleading.
So What are the options:
Fahrenheit: Good if you are familiar with it, and it seems that Toady is, and Toady has earned the right to use whatever system Toady wants...
Celsius: Well, it seems to be popular amongst humans, and water probably has the greatest combination of temperature-sensitivity and relevance to the game...
Kelvin: With magical heat sinks the whole thing about not worrying about negatives is gone, so unless some significance is implemented for absolute zero, it isn't really all that appetising.
Pick an arbitrary temperature as 0 and use the same units as Fahrenheit: Useful if you are familiar with Fahrenheit and like some element of the game as an anchor. But changing the 0 point messes up all the familiar values...
The same seems true when applied to Celsius and Kelvin.
Picking 2 significant temperatures within D.F. and picking arbitrary numbers to represent them, then plotting a direct progression between them to develop a scale: Could take alot of getting used to, but knowing that water freezes at 0 and magma will always be at 1000 could be useful...
Pseudo Kelvin, setting 0 to the point at which getting colder stops having any significant effect, and then importing a scale: No negatives is nice, but if you can't handle negatives then you probably won't be doing much modding, and most useful values will be quite obscure...
Blue Monkey! 666 = the temperature at which the sky turns yellow with purple polka-dots, 3 = the sound of the ocean as it turns into meatloaf, the scale is generated by progressing negatively from 9, alternating between a logarithmic and exponential progression, multiplying by 12 every christmas, until it wraps around and reaches 16: This is useful if you are making an artefact, or if they are watching you, or if your -carp leather loincloth- was too heavy to wear any more...
We sure are an argumentative bunch, aren't we?I OPPOSE THIS ON ALL COUNTS!
I withdraw the suggestion completely. It's fine the way it is.
Whaddaya gonna do about that, huh?
Yeah, reading multiple formats from the raws would totally be the dog's knees. I am in favor.Well, that only happens when opening DF. The data/objects folder (which holds the creature data the game uses) would have the internal values. Basically, it's the same as any old tag, just taking it up a level.
Only issue there is that it turns a "read an int from this tag" into "read a string from this tag and convert". NBD.
I say we just let Toady decide to use whatever scale he wishes in the game. Other then familiarity, there is no advantage in using one system over another. Although I like the ideal of a temperature scale called Urist.
0 Urist - the temperature at which the mixture of 4 dwarven alcohol in equal amount freezes.
100 Urist - the temperature at which the same mixture above boils.
Dwarves will like any temperature between 0~100, said dwarves will have alcohol.
I say we just let Toady decide to use whatever scale he wishes in the game. Other then familiarity, there is no advantage in using one system over another. Although I like the ideal of a temperature scale called Urist.>:(
0 Urist - the temperature at which the mixture of 4 dwarven alcohol in equal amount freezes.
100 Urist - the temperature at which the same mixture above boils.
Dwarves will like any temperature between 0~100, said dwarves will have alcohol.
It wouldn't be doing that every second of playing the game, in other words.Yeah, reading multiple formats from the raws would totally be the dog's knees. I am in favor.Well, that only happens when opening DF. The data/objects folder (which holds the creature data the game uses) would have the internal values. Basically, it's the same as any old tag, just taking it up a level.
Only issue there is that it turns a "read an int from this tag" into "read a string from this tag and convert". NBD.
You're talking about a minor presentation issue, the 'solutions' of which require breaking save compatibility.The method I keep bringing up doesn't, which is why I keep angrily insisting on it when people suggest a save-breaking one. It would only make any mods utilizing the feature incompatible with previous versions, which happens quite often.
You're talking about a minor presentation issue, the 'solutions' of which require breaking save compatibility.
I would just like to state, for the record, how absolutely absurd it is for there to be a 7-page discussion on what method of reporting temperature would be the best. You're talking about a minor presentation issue, the 'solutions' of which require breaking save compatibility.
For Armok's sake, not everyone has temperature enabled, let alone cares enough about it to warrant the change!
I can't help but feel that celsius would be the dumbest of the options. A uint for Kelvin would be nice (or a float, or uint for 10ths of a kelvin or whatever). Or Farenheit, which is more familiar to most Americans. As the game is in English, there's more potential players familiar with that scale. Plus, I'm selfish and don't like Celsius for anything except talking about water.BAD BAD BAD! The US's denial of the SI system to cling to the obsolete English system is one reason most of the world thinks the US is stupid. America must abandon the English system, lest it fall into being a minor country of little importance. And really, English is taught everwhere. Making the game use Fahrenheit for modding would hurt more people than it would help.
@Appelgren: We're talking about modding here and the actual values. The game interface can continue the way it is.
but the facts are, fareight is alot more useful to non-technical pursuits like weather, ovens, and other low heat or high heat items.I don't see why. It's a matter of habit. Fahrenheit temperatures are meaningless for someone used to Celsius. While Celsius at least gives a clear clue about freezing/non-freezing.
Negative values could and should be used for magic and other related temperature-sapping things imho.From a magical viewpoint, there should be two values: one of the actual temperature of the object, and one for the temperature difference it causes. That way you can have objects of a normal temperature that nevertheless suck heat out of the environment. Near 0 K objects would effectively cool their environs anyway in a realistic temperature system.
Celsius is superior for food preparation and weather, the freezing and boiling points of water are very relevant to those pursuits
Fahrenheit really has no absolute values with any relevance
>:(
You did read the thread, right? You're not the first person to have said this. We are past using one scale. We have established that the internal system could use the same scale it uses now, with the raws accepting multiple scales and translating them, and everyone would be happy. As it stands, you don't actually see the specific temperatures while playing the game, and that's not likely to change.
The method I keep bringing up doesn't, which is why I keep angrily insisting on it when people suggest a save-breaking one. It would only make any mods utilizing the feature incompatible with previous versions, which happens quite often.
I don't doubt for a moment that the metric system was connected to communism.The metric system as we know it was introduced by revolutionary France. The same spirit gave rise to the Commmune of Paris, and formed a source of inspiration for Marx and the origin of the word communism.
America was formed by a revolution. Communism was formed by a revolution. Thus, America is a communistic country.I don't doubt for a moment that the metric system was connected to communism.The metric system as we know it was introduced by revolutionary France. The same spirit gave rise to the Commmune of Paris, and formed a source of inspiration for Marx and the origin of the word communism.
It seems like if anyone were to really try to push for the SI system, you should go through the raws and convert all the numbers yourself to make a transition as easy as possible, then post it.I supported the suggestion that the raws accept multiple units (including Fahrenheit, DF, what ever), not that we just start using Celsius. I don't see why there are people that aren't happy with that. It means anyone could use whatever they wanted to. The discussion seems pointless to me, too.
The truth is that most Americans use English units for their daily life - it's the scientists and people of other internationally-working professions that use SI.
That last part, yes, is what I am talking about. Officially we use SI, but really, we use English.The truth is that most Americans use English units for their daily life - it's the scientists and people of other internationally-working professions that use SI.
You realise we use celsius, right?
To my knowledge, we officially use all SI units, except on road signs, where we use y'olde imperial system of miles and yards.
Informally though, yeah, most people do still use imperial system. Especially older generations.
Aside from derailment..
I haven't really been keeping track, but are you guys saying you want the raws to accept all temperature scales, or are you asking for a seperate conversion utility?
Cos the raws are only notepad files... As far as i know they can't convert stuff. And i don't think the game will pick up letters (F for Fahrenheit, C for celsius, or whatever) in a numerical field.
Is this what you guys want changed?
Celsius is superior for food preparation and weather, the freezing and boiling points of water are very relevant to those pursuits
If the boiling point of water is relevant to your weather, tell me where this place is so I can stay far far away from it in the summer ;DQuoteFahrenheit really has no absolute values with any relevance
Sure it does - 32 and 212. Well, for pure water at atmospheric pressure, anyway, but Celsius has the same problem. The main advantage to having a scale from 0 to 100 is that you know easily the percentage - but there's nothing meaningful to halfway or 3/4 of the way or 10% from freezing to boiling, so there's no superiority to 0 and 100 vs 32 and 212 for those two temperatures.
The American revolution was instigated by wealthy bourgeois wanting a larger share of the pie. The French one had other axes to grind, and the bad living conditions of the Parisian lower classes fueled it. What they had in common was the idea that a bad ruler can and should be deposed by his subjects.America was formed by a revolution. Communism was formed by a revolution. Thus, America is a communistic country.I don't doubt for a moment that the metric system was connected to communism.The metric system as we know it was introduced by revolutionary France. The same spirit gave rise to the Commmune of Paris, and formed a source of inspiration for Marx and the origin of the word communism.
If we want a very dwarfy system, I suggest an exponential curve mapping Dwarf scale to Kelvin. I'll explain why at the bottom.
K = aebD + c
or
D = 1/b * ln((K - c) / a)
where a, b, and c are computed constants, D is degrees Dwarf, and K is degrees Kelvin.
The computation of the constants should come from this system of equations (I tried to solve it last night, but I suck at solving non-linear systems):
273.15 = ae0b + c
373.1339 = ae1000b + c
1700.0 = ae2000b + c
The result: A temperature scale in which water freezes at 0, melts at 1000, and the average temperature of magma is 2000. Certainly these would be considered the three most important temperatures for a dwarf? And even if water freezing/melting is not as important as some other temperature, certainly the temperature of magma is. (And conveniently, as far as I am aware, magma is always exactly one temperature in DF.)
Thus both commies.The American revolution was instigated by wealthy bourgeois wanting a larger share of the pie. The French one had other axes to grind, and the bad living conditions of the Parisian lower classes fueled it. What they had in common was the idea that a bad ruler can and should be deposed by his subjects.America was formed by a revolution. Communism was formed by a revolution. Thus, America is a communistic country.I don't doubt for a moment that the metric system was connected to communism.The metric system as we know it was introduced by revolutionary France. The same spirit gave rise to the Commmune of Paris, and formed a source of inspiration for Marx and the origin of the word communism.
That last part, yes, is what I am talking about. Officially we use SI, but really, we use English.
Cos the raws are only notepad files... As far as i know they can't convert stuff. And i don't think the game will pick up letters (F for Fahrenheit, C for celsius, or whatever) in a numerical field.I missed this first time I read that. No, that is not how the raws work. The raws are indeed notepad files, BUT, and this is very important, the tags are converted into a game-readable form upon loading DF. The game-readable form is stored in data/objects as opposed to raw/objects. So the raws can essentially be twisted and beaten to work the way Toady wants them to. The converter would read [20C] as . . . whatever 20 degrees Celsius is represented as in DF raws as of now. To simplify things, it could be [HEATDAM_POINT:20:C] with the unit separated from the twenty with a colon. Scale tags could be C (Celsius) F (Farenhiet), K (Kelvin), S (Skantine [sp?]), and D (Default).
Why would you (all) not be happy with this, when it would allow anyone to effortlessly insert temperature values into the raws?
For instance, my dwarfs have 6 fingers on each hand (2 of the fingers are thumbs), so they use a base 12 numerical system.
The following rant has nothing to do with DF.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The following rant has nothing to do with DF.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't know if anyone here has seen the "eight stages of goatse", but that's sort of been my reaction (only prolonged over time) from seeing people desperately trying to defend Fahrenheit - going from utter disgust to deeply enjoying the sheer insanity of it:
for example in the US a billion is 1000 million but in UK it is a million million.
I think that all scientists should us SI, I mean look at the mars lander that crashed, that cost more than $100,000,000, I also think that copuntries should get the words for numbers sorted out, for example in the US a billion is 1000 million but in UK it is a million million.
I'm sure others feel the same way about people suggesting it's "disgusting" to point out that there's no inherent advantage to one arbitrary system over another arbitrary system.Allow me to restate: Celsius is not arbitrary. It is based on the melting and boiling points of water, one of the most important substances to human existence; it has a great influence on weather, we are largely composed of it, we cook with it, we play all kinds of sports on it, we fight with it, we use it in manufacturing . . . the list goes on.
I think that all scientists should us SI, I mean look at the mars lander that crashed, that cost more than $100,000,000, I also think that copuntries should get the words for numbers sorted out, for example in the US a billion is 1000 million but in UK it is a million million.
Allow me to restate: Celsius is not arbitrary. It is based on the melting and boiling points of water, one of the most important substances to human existence; it has a great influence on weather, we are largely composed of it, we cook with it, we play all kinds of sports on it, we fight with it, we use it in manufacturing . . . the list goes on.
For instance, my dwarfs have 6 fingers on each hand (2 of the fingers are thumbs), so they use a base 12 numerical system.
Allow me to restate: Celsius is not arbitrary. It is based on the melting and boiling points of water
I am not quite entirely certain that I support multiple scales, having to put in a letter before every temperature could get irritating, and forgetting to add one could cause nasty bugs in mods...
Increased complexity = increased stuff-ups...
I'm sure if multiple temperature scales were possible, Toady wouldn't have implemented DF scale in the first place. There'll be some issues with sticking in 'C's or 'F's or whatever.Did you even read my posts? Like, at all? [TEMP:22:K] for example, the game reads the K (which is separated from the number. Upon reading that it puts the number through a conversion equation that translates it into the DF scale. The new number is put into the file in data/objects that the game actually uses (as opposed to the raws).
Maybe somebody could make a lil modproggie that would convert temperatures easily from D into F, C, and K?
What? I sort of get what you are saying, but not how it relates to what I said. He was using the lack of a feature as a counterargument, which makes no sense, since this is the sub-forum in which new features are suggested.
In your example, Toady himself, who knows DF's coding better than anyone here, said that he wouldn't do that and gave a reason.
With this topic, that is not the case. Someone made an assumption about DF without any evidence to back him up other than the lack of a feature. The suggestion of which we are talking about right now is just asking for Toady to change how the raws work, not how the whole game works. Something which he has not commented on.
I'm sure if multiple temperature scales were possible, Toady wouldn't have implemented DF scale in the first place. There'll be some issues with sticking in 'C's or 'F's or whatever.The DF scale, I assume, is based upon computer requirements and not on a real-life scale.
I'm sure if multiple temperature scales were possible, Toady wouldn't have implemented DF scale in the first place. There'll be some issues with sticking in 'C's or 'F's or whatever.The DF scale, I assume, is based upon computer requirements and not on a real-life scale.
Also, if there is a problem with sticking a letter after a number modders will never figure out the next release with tissue layers.
Also, this thread is fueled by people around the world personally offended by our use of Fahrenheit, and Americans saying we don't have to use Celsius in our daily lives.
They are lucky enough to be outside of the spotlight.I'm sure if multiple temperature scales were possible, Toady wouldn't have implemented DF scale in the first place. There'll be some issues with sticking in 'C's or 'F's or whatever.The DF scale, I assume, is based upon computer requirements and not on a real-life scale.
Also, if there is a problem with sticking a letter after a number modders will never figure out the next release with tissue layers.
Also, this thread is fueled by people around the world personally offended by our use of Fahrenheit, and Americans saying we don't have to use Celsius in our daily lives.
Hey now, there could be some people from Burma or Liberia here too.
This thread is now about trying to figure out and come to grips with how this thread can have reached eleven bloody pages!
Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold. This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.
Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold. This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.
Are you aware that 0° F are not supernaturally cold? It's about -17.7° Celsius. If you go up a mountain about 2000m tall in winter, you'll easily have something in these temparatures... AND SOMEDWARF WILL.
It is the coldest temperature reachable by the leading science men of the day. (Ice covered in salt)Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold. This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.
Are you aware that 0° F are not supernaturally cold? It's about -17.7° Celsius. If you go up a mountain about 2000m tall in winter, you'll easily have something in these temparatures... AND SOMEDWARF WILL.
Also, Fahrenheit is based on the irrational, stupid human, 100 being fever, and 0 being I-don't-know-what.
Celsius is based on the cold, hard facts of physics, namely the boiling and freezing temparatures of water in a 1-bar environment.
Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold. This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.
Are you aware that 0° F are not supernaturally cold? It's about -17.7° Celsius. If you go up a mountain about 2000m tall in winter, you'll easily have something in these temparatures... AND SOMEDWARF WILL.
Also, Fahrenheit is based on the irrational, stupid human, 100 being fever, and 0 being I-don't-know-what.
Celsius is based on the cold, hard facts of physics, namely the boiling and freezing temparatures of water in a 1-bar environment.
It was standardized based on 32 being the melting point of water and 96 being (as well as could be measured at the time) normal human body temperature - why is everyone so obsessed with the decimal system that 100 has to mean something? and 32 was used instead of 0 so that there wouldn't be negative numbers for normal weather temperaturesI said earlier, that 0 was the coldest temperature they could record. They covered ice in salt, and that was what they got.
It was standardized based on 32 being the melting point of water and 96 being (as well as could be measured at the time) normal human body temperature - why is everyone so obsessed with the decimal system that 100 has to mean something?
Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold. This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.
Are you aware that 0° F are not supernaturally cold? It's about -17.7° Celsius. If you go up a mountain about 2000m tall in winter, you'll easily have something in these temparatures... AND SOMEDWARF WILL.
Also, Fahrenheit is based on the irrational, stupid human, 100 being fever, and 0 being I-don't-know-what.
It was standardized based on 32 being the melting point of water and 96 being (as well as could be measured at the time) normal human body temperature - why is everyone so obsessed with the decimal system that 100 has to mean something? and 32 was used instead of 0 so that there wouldn't be negative numbers for normal weather temperaturesQuoteCelsius is based on the cold, hard facts of physics, namely the boiling and freezing temparatures of water in a 1-bar environment.
In other words, the boiling and freezing temperatures of an arbitrarily chosen substance at an arbitrary pressure.
It was standardized based on 32 being the melting point of water and 96 being (as well as could be measured at the time) normal human body temperature - why is everyone so obsessed with the decimal system that 100 has to mean something?
100F was supposed to be a healthy body temperature, but the dude's wife was running a 3-4 degree fever when he measured her temp and didn't find out until much later.
Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold. This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.
Are you aware that 0° F are not supernaturally cold? It's about -17.7° Celsius. If you go up a mountain about 2000m tall in winter, you'll easily have something in these temparatures... AND SOMEDWARF WILL.
Also, Fahrenheit is based on the irrational, stupid human, 100 being fever, and 0 being I-don't-know-what.
It was standardized based on 32 being the melting point of water and 96 being (as well as could be measured at the time) normal human body temperature - why is everyone so obsessed with the decimal system that 100 has to mean something? and 32 was used instead of 0 so that there wouldn't be negative numbers for normal weather temperaturesQuoteCelsius is based on the cold, hard facts of physics, namely the boiling and freezing temparatures of water in a 1-bar environment.
In other words, the boiling and freezing temperatures of an arbitrarily chosen substance at an arbitrary pressure.
I am obsessed with the decimal system because it's used everywhere else. We count in decimal, most of the world population measures decimal (as opposed to '12 inches are one foot' crap) and because it's generally the easiest numeral system. Would it seem logical to you when 92 % would represent a full chance instead of 100 %?
Again, NO. Healthy body temperature was supposed to be 96, 64 (nice power of 2) degrees above freezing.
[argumentative statement ignoring previous counterarguments]You just don't get it, do you? It's easier to remember multiples of 10 than multiples of, say, 8. 100 is simply a reasonably sized number for something near what your unit is based off of.
I am obsessed with the decimal system because it's used everywhere else. We count in decimal, most of the world population measures decimal (as opposed to '12 inches are one foot' crap) and because it's generally the easiest numeral system. Would it seem logical to you when 92 % would represent a full chance instead of 100 %?
(quote abbreviated to make post smaller)[argumentative statement ignoring previous counterarguments]You just don't get it, do you? It's easier to remember multiples of 10 than multiples of, say, 8. 100 is simply a reasonably sized number for something near what your unit is based off of.
Also, as previously stated, water is NOT an arbitrary substance. In fact, it is one of the most common elements found throughout the whole universe (so far as we can tell, thanks to spectroscopy and the laws of entropy).
There is also no substance that could substitute water in sheer diversity of naturally occurring uses (a.k.a: life, weather, etc.).
Now drop this thread.
Do you have any idea just how high a plane is if it is at 10000 feet...Not one, and feet are what I grew up with. Give it to me in SI, and I might have a better idea. That's the old system for ya.
Do you have any idea just how high a plane is if it is at 10000 feet...
I think SI uses 100o circles.Angle is a unitless measure (it's actually a fraction, nothing else), and that's why it's not mentioned in SI. It doesn't matter whether you have 90/360° degrees, 100/400° gon or whatever, it comes down to 1/4th of a circle.
Anyway, the most common elements are some of the low-mass metals and nonmetals. Those never show up in elemental form(except noble gases and low-mass noble metals). Elemental hydrogen is highly reactive, and if there is oxygen around (which there always will be in nature), it will likely form water.
In stars almost everything is in plasma form, in which they stripped of electrons. An element is a substance, but when an atom is in non-elemental form, it is a different substance. Water is the most common substance
As for the Earth-centric comment . . . Only the planets that are on the highest extremes of heat or cold (naturally possible) don't have weather. Besides, life and weather are just examples.
And people keep insisting that the discussion be dropped because there is a lot of faulty logic behind some arguments.
I think SI uses 100o circles.
why so many people have such a deep hatred for the fahrenheit scale that people using it _must not_ be accomodated.Racism or elitism. It's not logical but it does happen.
Hi all, first time ever posting here.
I'm sure this has been done by others, but I wrote a fairly simple tool converts between fahrenheit, celcius, kelvin and DF Temperature Units (calling it urist for lack of more concise term.)
It utilizes JavaScript, so you'll need to enable it if you don't have it turned on already.
You can use it here: http://andvari.us/dwarf_temp_tool.html
To use it offline simply download the html file anywhere to your computer and point your web browser at the local file.
I put a CC0 notice at the bottom of the page; it's all big and official looking, but the only thing I intended to convey was that I'm putting this out there for anyone to use however they want, they don't even have to give me any credit.
Why do so many people insist on demanding that discussion be dropped?
DF Temperature Units (calling it urist for lack of more concise term.)
38.5°C aren't really healthy...73/2=36.5
Now, will the OP please, please lock this thread?