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[Askot Bokbondeler]

Believe it or not, not all rogues are criminals.  Some rogues are just scouts, army irregulars, or exceptionally multi-talented businessmen.

outside of dnd, rogue means a criminal or generally unprincipled person... i don't think people were referring to "rogue" as a character class

[Lord Shonus]

IIt equally often applies to a person that simply violates the status quo in some manner. A rogue investment banker is not necessarily  a criminal, but might be much more inclined to gamble with the markets by the seat of his pants than most.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

well, yeah, but

scouts, army irregulars, or exceptionally multi-talented businessmen

made it sound like nw_kohaku was talking about the dnd character class or a specific set of skills

[NW_Kohaku]

well, yeah, but

scouts, army irregulars, or exceptionally multi-talented businessmen

made it sound like nw_kohaku was talking about the dnd character class or a specific set of skills

This actually got me thinking about different types of heroes- you've got the "seasoned warrior" types who beat down their enemies through legendary strength and battle prowess (Hercules being the classical example, and Superman being a comic book example), and you've got the "trickster" types, who use planning, foresight, and quick wits to out-think their enemies (Perseus being the classical example, and Batman being the comic book example.)
...
Right now, about as tricky as you can get as a hero is to bring half a castle along with you on your adventures. It even (kinda) makes sense for this sort of thing to come in parallel to caravan arc stuff- after all, what kind of city market doesn't have a lovable rogue in it?

I think Monk12 was referring to both the "adventurer archetype" as well as the sort of "rogue" that you might hear about in phrases like "a dashing rogue". 

[kaypy]

Interestingly, "loveable rogue" as a phrase describes enough of an archetype to appear not just on TVTropes, but on the other wiki as well...

[freeformschooler]

I think Release 9 is going to be the most interesting release. You buy a cottage, and with adventure mode reactions become a crafting or one thing or another -- and then you sell your useless crafts to people for as much gold as you can get, and then you pile your house sky high with gold and swim around in it (half-literally).

That's what I'm gonna do.

No, not really - I'm gonna be a vegetable trader. But I'll try that too.

[NW_Kohaku]

I think Release 9 is going to be the most interesting release. You buy a cottage, and with adventure mode reactions become a crafting or one thing or another -- and then you sell your useless crafts to people for as much gold as you can get, and then you pile your house sky high with gold and swim around in it (half-literally).

That's what I'm gonna do.

No, not really - I'm gonna be a vegetable trader. But I'll try that too.

While that sounds like a cool idea on paper, I worry that it will be quite boring in practice.

I mean, you outline it by saying that you'll make crafts or trade vegetables, but when you fill in the space between the lines, you're going to be moving back and forth in your house, picking up individual items, putting them in whatever workspace you have, manually punching through the tasks of doing things, and then walking to market, selling those things, then picking up more raw materials, and rinse-repeating this whole process again.

The fun parts are the parts you just mentioned, but the thing about Fortress Mode is that the dwarves do the tedious "actually doing the labor" part for you.  If all we're doing all the manually crafting things and selling them, we're basically playing an MMO or community game except with no "MM" or "O" or community.

If we're going to have a fun domestic life, we're going to need to have a town that is more fun to simply hang out around, and talk to people and do basic things around.  That means that release 2, the part about having bustling towns and interesting daily lives for all the random peasants is most important.

[Kogut]

One thing: ctrl+r

[NW_Kohaku]

Even if you generate macros for some of the more blatant repeated menu-crawl portions, that doesn't make the game actually less repetitive and more exciting, though.

When you get right down to it, doing some basic chores every day, using some crafting skills to make items that you only wind up selling, and basically just generating cash is the basis of Harvest Moon... and even Harvest Moon has started turning itself into a Legend of Zelda-style adventure game that just happens to have farming being the basis of your magic skills and easiest path to cash, and even early on, the major point of Harvest Moon was to build up relationships with the other villagers.

Basically, just grinding money by producing stacks of items isn't very fun all on its own, you either need to make the actual process of making those items fun (See Puzzle Pirates) or else you need to make the process of crafting or raising money an intermediate step on the way to getting to something else more fun.

Of course, if we just go for full-blown Sims mode, where we can buy a plot of land, design our own house, build our own furniture, and decorate however we want, there's at least some of the "Dollhouse" game fun aspect of it. 

Still, I'm going to say that making interactions with the random citizens of your town the part where you're supposed to have your fun would be the best overall course of action.

Again, crafting things and contributing to the community works in a MMO or community game because people want to be a part of the community, and if the community was bad, they wouldn't bother crafting things for money.  (This is generally why everyone plays World of Warcraft - it's where all the clans already are, and where everyone who's been playing there already knows people.  Even if there was a World of Warcraft clone that fixed all of WoW's problems, and was better in every way, people would still play WoW, because that's where their friends are.)

Toady has a great capacity to surprise with what he can actually manage to pull off, but I'm not sure procedurally generated communities are going to be as dynamic and enjoyable as real-life people will be, even if we take out points for griefing and trolling, any time soon.

[Mel_Vixen]

Well toady has mentioned a fast forward feature for stuff like meditating under a waterfall for a week or hanging out in giant tree for 3 days. Given that you have the tools and corresponding rooms i could imagine the same would apply to farming. And you could still hire some people to help you out with the farming given that you have some cash. 

[tps12]

The fun parts are the parts you just mentioned, but the thing about Fortress Mode is that the dwarves do the tedious "actually doing the labor" part for you.  If all we're doing all the manually crafting things and selling them, we're basically playing an MMO or community game except with no "MM" or "O" or community.

That stuff sounds boring to me even within an MMO game, but it comes up all the time. For whatever reason, some people seem really enamored of role-playing the life of Urist the Hauler.

[Dakk]

Or Urist the resource gatherer/auction house economic speculator.

Really though, the reason to why every MMO bogs down to a lame grind race is because in the end its the numbers on your equipment and not your skill that matters most.

But anyway, having a slice of economy is necessary for the DF roleplaying experience get closer to being complete. Imagine playing as a trader, gathering enough wealth to buy yourself a nice mansion in the richest part of the town, become a member of nobility through your money and influence and eventualy usurp the throne. An RPG doesn't need to consist only of "I HIT ARGUEBARGLE WITH MY STEEL SWORD +3"

[zwei]

Or Urist the resource gatherer/auction house economic speculator.

Really though, the reason to why every MMO bogs down to a lame grind race is because in the end its the numbers on your equipment and not your skill that matters most.

But anyway, having a slice of economy is necessary for the DF roleplaying experience get closer to being complete. Imagine playing as a trader, gathering enough wealth to buy yourself a nice mansion in the richest part of the town, become a member of nobility through your money and influence and eventualy usurp the throne. An RPG doesn't need to consist only of "I HIT ARGUEBARGLE WITH MY STEEL SWORD +3"

Not really. Guild Wars - MMO where you could not really improve character with grinding also ended up being grindfest because people still wanted pretty items (even if they were sometimes less powerfull that ordinary ones) and nice title under character name.

Grind also happens when you run out of content. No-one sane will grind that +3 right away. But grinding it when they run out of interesting quests/dungeons/exploration/whatever is natural choice - the only other solution is to quit game. Also noted in GW. People were done playing but did not want to quit so they ASKED for grind.

[Kogut]

Grind also happens when you run out of content. No-one sane will grind that +3 right away. But grinding it when they run out of interesting quests/dungeons/exploration/whatever is natural choice - the only other solution is to quit game. Also noted in GW. People were done playing but did not want to quit so they ASKED for grind.

Tom Sawyer Whitewashing the Fence

[tps12]

On the topic of "weird folklore monsters," I just remembered magical penis thieves.