Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Adventure Mode Discussion => Topic started by: thvaz on August 19, 2014, 10:33:17 am
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Regarding stuck flying creature, it was most of the underground creatures as well, once they got up on walls, and also some that got up in trees and so on. I followed many different creatures off the map, so I think it is working now for all of the problem creatures.
I could probably use a few more saves to mess around with in the morale report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7161). A few pieces of it were fixed (with ambushes, hopefully), a few pieces are intended though they may be out of whack or badly articulated (strangers freaking out when you move at them with a drawn weapon, corpse fright, some peaceful bandits), and there are lots of plainly broken pieces -- I'll be able to work much faster to address the specific concerns people have with something concrete, since there are so many moving parts now and it's difficult to recreate the issues that are most annoying sometimes.
Toady is finding difficult to point the problems of adventurer mode. We know there are a series of issues with it, most of them already reported. Toady needs saves for these problems, but I think that something that is lacking for him is feedback about the problems of the adventurer mode in the new version. I find it significantly less fun than in 0.34.11.
Reasons:
1) the game doesn't convey enough information to the player. People attack you and you don't know why. People run from you because your weapon is drawn - but just sometimes. Your companions sometimes attack random people in the streets - it was a bandit? a grudge? Your companion is a psycopath? It is hard to know. NPCs should explain some basic things of what they are doing, even if it is as a placeholder for now.
2)People talk about all kind of trouble, but no one gives you a quest. Well, sometimes they ask you to do something, but it is never registered as a mission. You should confirm that you are doing that mission and the game should track your success. Right now there is barely any sense of acomplishment as it was in 0.34.11.
3) Companions are even less useful, leaving you on "a important mission" or just watching you kill other things. Sometimes they kill people you weren't supposed to kill.
4) Reputation system looks like it is broken. With a adventurer I killed about 30 night creatures and people from my civ barely noticed me.
Help out with saves for the bugs or with feedback!
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I am not sure if it's really needed as relationships, emotions and reaction are broken all over the place that just playing and you run into those problem in no time, but here are 2 saves i reported from 0.40.08
-Companions AI relationship with an undead dingo completely broken as not only they don't help me fighting the beast and the beast don't even try to fight them, but one of the companions actually greet the beast :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8027
-Informations and rumours aren't properly updated with the NPC, probably not helping in the changes of relationships :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8043
Additionally, stealth is very broken too, anyone that you'll hit when being under stealth will just wait there until you finish to kill them, they will not try to flee, they'll just spam the "it's suspicious" while they have already a dozen of sword stabbing wound in the head.
You can basically annihilate a whole civ all by yourself.
Only some night creatures, the undeads and the bogeymen seems to work properly .
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#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.
Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.
Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.
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#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.
Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.
Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.
How many kills do you have to report to achieve that? I killed 20 peeps from missions and reported it and haven't seen a change in reaction. I dont think thats true about companions, other people said they got more.
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#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.
Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.
Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.
You can check your reputation in legends mode after you retire. It isn't changing a bit. The 30 night creatures I killed had the rumours spread and I was still considered just a member.
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#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.
Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.
Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.
You can check your reputation in legends mode after you retire. It isn't changing a bit. The 30 night creatures I killed had the rumours spread and I was still considered just a member.
Would be nice to be able to check the reputation outside of legends mode. Unless...... it actually does show in the groups list? Though the groups list never shows anything other than my home civilization and the group that governs my hometown/homevillage, and whatever groups I create.
As for the companions, how do you recruit, say, 10 in total? Outside of prisioners.
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#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.
Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.
Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.
You can check your reputation in legends mode after you retire. It isn't changing a bit. The 30 night creatures I killed had the rumours spread and I was still considered just a member.
Would be nice to be able to check the reputation outside of legends mode. Unless...... it actually does show in the groups list? Though the groups list never shows anything other than my home civilization and the group that governs my hometown/homevillage, and whatever groups I create.
As for the companions, how do you recruit, say, 10 in total? Outside of prisioners.
I never got more than 3 at the same time, but the total of companions should be more, as they are always leaving the party.
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2)People talk about all kind of trouble, but no one gives you a quest. Well, sometimes they ask you to do something, but it is never registered as a mission. You should confirm that you are doing that mission and the game should track your success. Right now there is barely any sense of acomplishment as it was in 0.34.11.
This this this this this this this.
The Quest screen is a mess, it'd be better if it didn't listen virtually every event that happened right at the start. I know there's a filter to search, but good luck if you took a longer break and forgot what you were about to do. A quest tag on accepted/completed stuff would be help (with a dialogue option to actually accept a task, I'm not even sure you can do that at the moment even), even more so if those would be automatically sent on the top of the list.
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Maybe this is just me, but I tried playing one game, and with a Dwarven Adventurer, locally important hero, kept starting in a fortress below the first cavern (I'm assuming it was the first, based on the trees) Tried finding my way out, but eventually starved to death. It was all rooms full of forges and mason workshops below the cavern, which led up to an enormous road and fields, but the roads never led to an up stair.
Then another dwarf adventurer, unfamous peasant, started in a smaller fortress. I was able to find my way out by 'T'raveling, and eventually came to a 'fortress entrance' square. He was immediately killed by boogeymen after sleeping till morning indoors, but leaving immediately, when it was still dark out. Is this a bug? I don't remember boogeymen attacking in the dawn hours just before sunrise. Either way, sleeping till dawn should prevent Boogeyman attacks until the next sundown.
Anyway, I restarted, with the same type of dwarf as I started with locally important hero, and ended up in the same fort as initially. Fast Traveling, all I ever saw was Underground Farms and Underground stairs (all of which were down into forge/mason rooms). Eventually I picked a direction, and starved to death after fast traveling a huge distance.
Am I missing something here? How are you supposed to deal with these huge underground fortresses that you can't leave, can't get food (plump helmets everywhere, but I can't pick them) can barely get water (the cavern lakes were all 1-Z deep, so I had to be dying of thirst before I'd drinkthe muddy water, also, drinking water coverings - on body parts, weapons, etc - doesn't help as much with thirst. Makes sense I guess) and have no idea where the 'out' stair is.
Dwarf adventurers should definitely begin at the exit of Forts, if it's necessary for them to begin underground at all. If there's any situation like that for humans (big Castles? City sewers?) I'd say the same.
Also, I noticed in the last iteration that anytime I got near a big city my computer would lag to the point that the game is unplayable. It wasn't *as* bad when I was wandering the fortresses in this version, but still noticeable. It's what kept me from striking out into the under-ness to hunt some food. The fort was basically deserted though, it would probably get a lot worse with NPC's and items lying around.
Running a 2007 MacBook Pro with 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 4GB of 667MHz DDR2 SRAM. Should I hold off on DF, or adventure mode at least, until I get a better rig, or is this a problem everyone experiences? Is there the intention to fix this? I guess maybe the best thing to do would be to request some more useful information on the System Requirements page on the DF Wiki?
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This is a very common issue with dwarven adventurers. There is an exit, but there's only one per fort. And fort generation can sometimes cut whole areas off from other parts of the fort, meaning you can very likely spawn in an area that has no escape. The exit staircase also isn't a traditional staircase, it's a ring of ramps that leads to the surface.
Site lag is a problem, and it doesn't really seem that modern processors can make a huge dent with it. My i5 quad core 3.5 GHz can run an adventurer through a generated dwarven fort well enough. But DF doesn't even utltize more than one core, so I guess the point is mostly moot.
Toady hasn't mentioned plans to combat site lag AFAIK.
edited for a bit of clarity
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He may not have plans, but i suspect some of the bugfixes that will come with time will help with some of the sites unplayable lags.
In the incoming version, he fixed
6737 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6737) - Flying animals (e.g. birds) stuck in mid air (prevents invasions?)
Fliers stuck (and probably generating cascade of pathfinding failure) has a noticable impact on Fortress mode, this one should really help.
And in case the flier can be stuck in adventure mode too, maybe we'll see progress.
In the current version he fixed
7821 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7821) - Animal overpopulations multiply/replenish after waiting/sleeping in worldgen fortresses, cause extreme lag
That really didn't helped with many sites, though i have not yet explored enough site in 40.09 to see if it makes a difference (especially as i didn't go near a dark fortress in that version, usually the worst offenders)
I'm sure more of the bugfixes will help with the frustrating lag of some sites.
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Goblins are completely out of control right now and visiting a Dark fortress is almost impossible due to lag.
The problem with exits in dwarven fortresses is a big issue too. You should really start at the exit - if you know where it is it is a lot easier to navigate inside the fortress.
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Underground travel would be less confusing if your sight radius on the travel map was greater than one tile. A dwarf adventurer - who should have used those tunnels hundreds of times before - shouldn't be groping around in the dark like that. The asterisks that represent other travelers could still be absent underground, preventing you from knowing what might be waiting around the next bend.
Another thing about worldgen fortresses: Does anyone know why bug 6563 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6563) and bug 5598 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5598) haven't been fixed yet? It seems like a straightforward change to make.
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Underground travel would be less confusing if your sight radius on the travel map was greater than one tile. A dwarf adventurer - who should have used those tunnels hundreds of times before - shouldn't be groping around in the dark like that. The asterisks that represent other travelers could still be absent underground, preventing you from knowing what might be waiting around the next bend.
Another thing about worldgen fortresses: Does anyone know why bug 6563 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6563) and bug 5598 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5598) haven't been fixed yet? It seems like a straightforward change to make.
No idea on those two. Also, has anybody EVER found steel in the worldgen fortress/mountainhome shops?
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Underground travel would be less confusing if your sight radius on the travel map was greater than one tile. A dwarf adventurer - who should have used those tunnels hundreds of times before - shouldn't be groping around in the dark like that. The asterisks that represent other travelers could still be absent underground, preventing you from knowing what might be waiting around the next bend.
Another thing about worldgen fortresses: Does anyone know why bug 6563 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6563) and bug 5598 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5598) haven't been fixed yet? It seems like a straightforward change to make.
I could have sworn Toady mentioned in one of the first bug fixing devlogs that this was on the immediate menu. Can't imagine why it hasn't gotten the squash yet. Maybe the problem was more complex than originally thought?
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Underground travel would be less confusing if your sight radius on the travel map was greater than one tile. A dwarf adventurer - who should have used those tunnels hundreds of times before - shouldn't be groping around in the dark like that. The asterisks that represent other travelers could still be absent underground, preventing you from knowing what might be waiting around the next bend.
Another thing about worldgen fortresses: Does anyone know why bug 6563 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6563) and bug 5598 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5598) haven't been fixed yet? It seems like a straightforward change to make.
I could have sworn Toady mentioned in one of the first bug fixing devlogs that this was on the immediate menu. Can't imagine why it hasn't gotten the squash yet. Maybe the problem was more complex than originally thought?
You can't ever say that something is straightforward to fix without access to the code. Oy Maybe Toady didn't get around to it. However, this bug and the fact of how difficult is to navigate inside dwarven fortresses are the reason I never play as a dwarf in adventurer mode.
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That's the reason i only play human adventurer, considering how much equipment worn influence greatly on how your adventurer will survive or die in fights, playing dwarves or elves is just calling for random death by an undead/nightcreature/bogey enemy doing a lucky kick or punch that your pitiful clothes will not have a chance to deflect that will chip your bone, make you unconscious then dead
Just noticed in the changelog for the next version
0006810 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6810): [Adventure Mode -- AI] AI almost never reacting to being attacked from stealth. (Toady One) - resolved.
One of the major adventure mode fun breaker should be fixed in next version ?
Great , can't wait to see people finally starting to react.
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playing dwarves or elves is just calling for random death by an undead/nightcreature/bogey enemy doing a lucky kick or punch
Heh, heh. Playing any race is just calling for random death, isn't it? But I get your point.
Still, playing as a human, I have no real problem with anything until I inevitably encounter something that's completely invulnerable to my attack - usually, because I can't hit it, not matter how many times I try (a bowman deflecting every one of my axe attacks with his bow) or I can't harm it (a necromancer corpse which I can hit with my axe, and badly damage, but without any useful result at all).
My point is that every death seems random, because it just depends on running into something that's impossible to kill.
There are a lot of things I wish were fixed in adventure mode, but maybe my biggest disappointment has been the conversation system. There are lots of topics, but no way to ask about anything I'd like to know.
Goblins told me they were on a mission, but I couldn't follow up on that. What mission? What did it have to do with me? The townspeople told me that a bandit gang was harassing people in the street. OK, but so what? I couldn't confirm that they were talking about the goblins, I couldn't ask the goblins about it, and I couldn't find out what they wanted me to do about it. Enemies yell out that they yield, but I can't follow up on that, either. I can't demand that they drop their weapons, or pay me off, or anything else. And they don't seem to stop fighting, either.
My followers immediately run away at the start of every fight. I can't ask them what they think they're doing. I can't chew them out. I can't threaten them. I can't encourage them. It just happens. These are people who wanted me to "lead them to glory and death," yet they don't even wait until they take damage before bugging out!
Oh, well, I need to start a new fortress, anyway. For me, adventure mode is just something to mess around with between fortresses.
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That's basically the other major fun breaker bug in adventure mode , the 40.0x morale/reaction systems that are completely broken, something that didn't happened in 34.11.
Now that the stealth one is hopefully fixed (we'll see on 0.40.10) , i hope this big one will be taken out soon, it makes it hard to be immersed in the game when evil murderous horrible creatures like goblins just tells your dwarf "greeting, long live the cause" or when you kill half a site population and no guards will ever try to stop you, or a war occuring in a site you're supposed to belong to, and the attacking side is not hostile to you at all, or those bandits that are happy to see you despite you're a guard of the castle in the region they've been raiding and pillaging, your Lady or Lord that run away from you when you approach to talk everytime despite you serve them well, everyone being afraid of his own shadow, etc...
This emotion/reaction system is the very big bad currently in my opinion. And i guess it has impact in fortress mode too with your burly veteran axedwarf squad running away in terror from just seeing a couple of goblin invaders.
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That's basically the other major fun breaker bug in adventure mode , the 40.0x morale/reaction systems that are completely broken, something that didn't happened in 34.11.
Now that the stealth one is hopefully fixed (we'll see on 0.40.10) , i hope this big one will be taken out soon, it makes it hard to be immersed in the game when evil murderous horrible creatures like goblins just tells your dwarf "greeting, long live the cause" or when you kill half a site population and no guards will ever try to stop you, or a war occuring in a site you're supposed to belong to, and the attacking side is not hostile to you at all, or those bandits that are happy to see you despite you're a guard of the castle in the region they've been raiding and pillaging, your Lady or Lord that run away from you when you approach to talk everytime despite you serve them well, everyone being afraid of his own shadow, etc...
This emotion/reaction system is the very big bad currently in my opinion. And i guess it has impact in fortress mode too with your burly veteran axedwarf squad running away in terror from just seeing a couple of goblin invaders.
I hadn't any problem with morale in fortress mode. I choose well my dwarf soldiers, and avoid those who don't like to fight or who are cowards. They get discipline by training, so by the time they have to fight they are cold, calculating machines of death.
In adventure mode you can't see into companions personalities.
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I can't demand that they drop their weapons, or pay me off, or anything else.
You can do both of these things. Trade screen, request an item, offer nothing. People actually responding in a way that makes sense is less reliable, of course. If you do successfully do this, it goes down in historical events as a robbery and people talk about it, though.
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Toady worked on saves regarding morale yesterday. I will wait the next version to give more feedback. Given the complexity of the issues, it will take some time untill all situations are fixed...
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Not sure if minotaurs actually have weapons now because I ran into one who has a steel short sword for the first time. He unsheathed the weapon and was supicious at my sneaking, but they're still incredibly flighty as instead of attacking me, he ran off screaming 'AAAAA!! ADVENTURER!!! AAAAA!!*'
Edit: Lol, he did the same thing again, like he is about to fight but suddenly bolts.
*dramatization, lol....
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Not sure if minotaurs actually have weapons now because I ran into one who has a steel short sword for the first time. He unsheathed the weapon and was supicious at my sneaking, but they're still incredibly flighty as instead of attacking me, he ran off screaming 'AAAAA!! ADVENTURER!!! AAAAA!!*'
Edit: Lol, he did the same thing again, like he is about to fight but suddenly bolts.
*dramatization, lol....
Minotaurs have weapons since 0.31.XX, I guess.
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Toady managed to fix some problems with relations and emotions :
0008027 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8027): [Adventure Mode -- AI] Companions not helping to fight an undead dingo
0007360 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7360): [Dwarf Mode -- Combat] Combat horror and cowardice too common
Very good, relations and emotions being broken are the big ones still left, those bugfixes will certainly solve many related cases.
0.40.11 should approach awesome level for Adventure mode.
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Not sure if minotaurs actually have weapons now because I ran into one who has a steel short sword for the first time. He unsheathed the weapon and was supicious at my sneaking, but they're still incredibly flighty as instead of attacking me, he ran off screaming 'AAAAA!! ADVENTURER!!! AAAAA!!*'
Edit: Lol, he did the same thing again, like he is about to fight but suddenly bolts.
*dramatization, lol....
Minotaurs have weapons since 0.31.XX, I guess.
They never did have weapons when they invaded forts back in 0.34.11 and this is the first time that I've seen a minotaur actually have a weapon.
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I find it stupid that quests are gone now. Now everything is just one big incomprehensible pile of events that make less and less sense the more time goes on.
Oh well, it was inevitable.
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It's a WIP kind of thing really.
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Toady fixed a big one for the non-human adventurers for the incoming 0.40.11 :
0005598 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5598): [Adventure Mode -- Town] Town shops/cabinets contain human-sized clothes regardless of size of actual residents (Toady One) - resolved.
0006563 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6563): [Adventure Mode -- Environment] All clothes in cabinets of Dwarven Fortress are too large for dwarves (Toady One) - resolved.
great news ! though there may be some problems left
There is an extent to which this is an extension of the unfinished trade stuff. I've fixed it to some degree, but there will continue to be problems for a long while, since it is very tricky to manage the items and make them regenerate properly in the face of changing populations etc.
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He said it was sort of fixed.
How much of an extent it's fixed though, no idea.
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Toady managed to fix some problems with relations and emotions :
0008027 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8027): [Adventure Mode -- AI] Companions not helping to fight an undead dingo
0007360 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7360): [Dwarf Mode -- Combat] Combat horror and cowardice too common
Very good, relations and emotions being broken are the big ones still left, those bugfixes will certainly solve many related cases.
0.40.11 should approach awesome level for Adventure mode.
Hopefully yes. If you start attack in a mead hall, you should be swarmed. As it is now, with 40.10's fixes, some may fight, others just talk or have fled.