Post by: Cormack on June 18, 2016, 03:13:51 am
I know Aurora the space sim, it is indeed quite complex but it literslly takes about 10 minutes to do one turn after about 50 years ingame so I passed.
Preferably strategy, roguelike, 4X or simulation.
Post by: Cthulhu on June 18, 2016, 03:43:27 am
Post by: Ekaton on June 18, 2016, 04:06:19 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 18, 2016, 05:20:05 am
Human Resource Maschine, that one game where you connect elements on mars, Braid...
Post by: Antioch on June 18, 2016, 06:45:25 am
Post by: Mech#4 on June 18, 2016, 07:04:55 am
Post by: dennislp3 on June 18, 2016, 09:56:05 am
Post by: ParsleyPWG on June 18, 2016, 10:54:12 am
Post by: Retropunch on June 18, 2016, 12:45:31 pm
RL wise: Sil is a very complex tolkien based Rogulike (http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/), there's also Incursion which is great, although very buggy (search on the other games forum for an updated and slightly less buggy version).
4x wise: Distant Worlds is pretty complex, although I wouldn't say it's very difficult once you get the hang of it. Homeworld 2 can be extremely complex with some of the other mods - more in a strategic sense rather than a 'work out what stuff actually does' way.
I'd also second JA2 as a great one.
Post by: hawkeye_de on June 18, 2016, 02:23:21 pm
A lot of Matrix's games are quite complex - apart from those mentioned already I highly recommend Command Modern Air/Naval Operations which is probably the most realistic naval and air warfare simulator available now and also I recommend Hearts of Iron III with Black Ice mod and its Total War sub-mod, it is hard to get more complex than that.
I also recommend Command Modern Air/Naval Operations if you have any interest for a hyper-realistic post wwii tactical naval/air simulator. And of course DCS world, like flying the A-10.
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2016, 02:49:11 pm
Have you tried AI War? It's incredibly complex - hundreds of unit types and massive strategic depth. It's also one of the few games where I've actually felt like I was fighting an angry Artificial Intelligence, rather than just a long IF statement.
mmm ehhhh... I guess... The complexity sort of wears thin when you can basically build everything anyway.
Post by: Erkki on June 18, 2016, 02:59:08 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: jocan2003 on June 18, 2016, 04:19:02 pm
http://mars-sim.sourceforge.net/
Post by: Folly on June 18, 2016, 04:25:21 pm
Post by: ParsleyPWG on June 18, 2016, 04:51:54 pm
X3 is the first game that comes to mind when I think of complexity. Though that may have been more an issue of poor UI design...pretty much every button on the keyboard had a function to learn.
I wish X3 had a better UI, every time I would get too big/have too many factories it would just become tedious to play and I'd lose interest
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 05:49:38 pm
The complexity comes from the turn-based side of things and that if you want to play optimally, you're expected to micro-manage everything. This, coupled with a horrible UI and the fact that you'll be continuously doing some quick head maths on lots of things (mostly squares and roots, but a few other things as well), makes it complicated.
Maybe complicated isn't the right word. Horrendously repetitive in a MM sense might be a better description. It's still a really good 4X, it just makes your brain and mouse fingers cry about 60-100 turns in. If you want to play it "well", that is.
Anything with 100+ strategy articles, all of which must be backed up with a decent chunk of maths to be taken seriously, gives it the "complex" rating to my mind. Lots of strategies, lots of math, a big game that looks small.
Basic overview of game:
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/What_Is_Stars! (http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/What_Is_Stars!)
Strategy Article library: (there are more on other sites)
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Article_Library
Post by: WakeMeUp on June 18, 2016, 06:48:14 pm
Stars! is kind of complex. Or it can be. It's a turn-based 4X from yesteryear, and quite a good one.
The complexity comes from the turn-based side of things and that if you want to play optimally, you're expected to micro-manage everything. This, coupled with a horrible UI and the fact that you'll be continuously doing some quick head maths on lots of things (mostly squares and roots, but a few other things as well), makes it complicated.
Maybe complicated isn't the right word. Horrendously repetitive in a MM sense might be a better description. It's still a really good 4X, it just makes your brain and mouse fingers cry about 60-100 turns in. If you want to play it "well", that is.
Anything with 100+ strategy articles, all of which must be backed up with a decent chunk of maths to be taken seriously, gives it the "complex" rating to my mind. Lots of strategies, lots of math, a big game that looks small.
Basic overview of game:
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/What_Is_Stars! (http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/What_Is_Stars!)
Strategy Article library: (there are more on other sites)
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Article_Library
Is Stars! more complicated than Aurora? Kinda doubt that.
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 07:03:11 pm
Stars! was also one of the first 4X games where the AI opponent doesn't cheat. It does things stupidly and doesn't focus too well sometimes, but it doesn't cheat. It only does what the player *could* do. Not as well, and there's plenty of exploits against it (that are usually banned in MP games as well, even without AIs), but a decent amount of AIs can be an actual challenge. All without them cheating (although they do share information if it's a "you vs the galaxy" type game, which most vs AI games are).
If you hex-edit some competently designed races in for them to use, it can get quite scary. While you use up resources fighting 1-2 of them, another 5 might be expanding and teching you out of contention. All without insta-resources or free unit spam at any time.
When you win, you win. When you lose, the computer actually did beat you.
Post by: WakeMeUp on June 18, 2016, 07:09:01 pm
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 07:17:29 pm
You *can* play DF pretty simply if you want, almost like a text based RTS vs zombie hordes.
Or you can literally attempt to raise hell and fire as much of it as possible out of a magma cannon at random elves.
The choice is yours, and losing is fun.
Sandbox/game/software toy is hard to define.
(military simulations, the ones they actually use to train pilots etc, certainly aren't games. They're very complex, with win and loss conditions in varying scenarios, and are excellent simulations, but they're not games. Flight sim games that we play for entertainment are though. It gets even more complicated from that point onward)
Post by: WakeMeUp on June 18, 2016, 07:27:53 pm
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 07:36:44 pm
It's more narrowly defined in its simulation, but it's more complex with certain things too. It's a game. It can tell a story too.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 18, 2016, 07:39:53 pm
So what kind of complex simulations are there that are more complex than DF?Define 'more complex'. Something like Orbiter is 'more complex' in terms of what it models but the scope is much more narrow.
Post by: Erkki on June 18, 2016, 07:41:14 pm
So what kind of complex simulations are there that are more complex than DF?
Is DF a simulation? Many war games for example are much more complex. Aurora complex or beyond. Though I don't think Aurora is all that super complex either in terms of what all the player must learn and remember, just very slow paced and with a horrific UI that wants you to click 5 times before you get anywhere while the blue-green-gray color scheme bores into your brains.
Post by: WakeMeUp on June 18, 2016, 07:42:53 pm
So what kind of complex simulations are there that are more complex than DF?Define 'more complex'. Something like Orbiter is 'more complex' in terms of what it models but the scope is much more narrow.
I mean any game, simulation and what-not that is very deep and complex in depicting some area - both large and small like both the whole fantasy world like DF or small like SAM Simulator which is all about SAMs.
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 07:45:44 pm
It kinda is. Sort of. Is it DF complex? No.
It's a totally different sort of complex, but kind of sandboxxy and simulationist as well.
Post by: WakeMeUp on June 18, 2016, 07:49:23 pm
It's like asking "How complex is Kerbal Space Program?"
It kinda is. Sort of. Is it DF complex? No.
It's a totally different sort of complex, but kind of sandboxxy and simulationist as well.
KSP is fine, it is kinda more complex than DF I think. What else?
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 07:51:44 pm
Even Romance of the Three Kingdoms series "does a thing". Define complex, or I really can't answer the question.
Post by: WakeMeUp on June 18, 2016, 07:53:00 pm
as mentioned, F22: TAW.
Even Romance of the Three Kingdoms series "does a thing". Define complex, or I really can't answer the question.
Mostly about having a lot of different features but also how well it depicts something.
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 08:26:55 pm
There were lots of options and features too. And a few mini-games!
I'm pretty sure Tyrian doesn't meet the OP's requirements of "complex" though.
Post by: Ekaton on June 19, 2016, 03:22:18 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 19, 2016, 05:04:57 am
I guess we should mention dominions (4), but from all games stated so far, I'd say Factorio offers the most long-term-complexity (and multiplayer : 3)
Post by: Cormack on June 19, 2016, 05:46:51 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 19, 2016, 06:05:50 am
Post by: Cormack on June 20, 2016, 02:25:00 am
Post by: Mephisto on June 20, 2016, 07:23:43 am
Are there any complex space base simulators?
They're all Early Access failures.
The two I'm aware of - Spacebase DF9 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/246090) (I don't want to work on this anymore so I'll just label the current version 1.0 and no one can complain anymore), Space Station Alpha (http://store.steampowered.com/app/341930) (I wish I was Spacebase DF9).
There's another one that appeared more successful but I don't recall the name of it. I remember the player leading away missions to gather resources.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 20, 2016, 07:32:56 am
Post by: Cormack on June 20, 2016, 07:35:56 am
Just play Startopia to get your space station fix. Nobody has come close since then.
Played it for years now, looking for something different. Mars Simulation Project seemed fine but there's little to do there.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 20, 2016, 07:49:35 am
Are there any complex space base simulators?
Space Station 13 might actually be the most complex in that area, if you can magically find a server that is not a incestious meta-club.
Post by: Girlinhat on June 20, 2016, 08:38:31 am
I really want to see SS13 rebooted as a singleplayer option. Maybe as simple as 'last survivor on a space station after emergency, get power running again and don't starve'. Like "The Martian" the game, on a space station...Are there any complex space base simulators?
Space Station 13 might actually be the most complex in that area, if you can magically find a server that is not a incestious meta-club.
Post by: miauw62 on June 20, 2016, 09:24:49 am
So basically, factorio in space?I really want to see SS13 rebooted as a singleplayer option. Maybe as simple as 'last survivor on a space station after emergency, get power running again and don't starve'. Like "The Martian" the game, on a space station...Are there any complex space base simulators?
Space Station 13 might actually be the most complex in that area, if you can magically find a server that is not a incestious meta-club.
Actually, I recall a rogue like that was like this. Can't remember the name, though.
Post by: Persus13 on June 20, 2016, 09:49:40 am
Teleglitch?So basically, factorio in space?I really want to see SS13 rebooted as a singleplayer option. Maybe as simple as 'last survivor on a space station after emergency, get power running again and don't starve'. Like "The Martian" the game, on a space station...Are there any complex space base simulators?
Space Station 13 might actually be the most complex in that area, if you can magically find a server that is not a incestious meta-club.
Actually, I recall a rogue like that was like this. Can't remember the name, though.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 20, 2016, 10:13:13 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 20, 2016, 10:15:43 am
http://thespatials.com/ maybe not extra complex but there's plenty stuff to do, from room hosting your station tourist to send out away teams to unlock quadrants, to missions and quests, resource managements etc.I really wanted to like that game but it.. it just wasn't good. I honestly think it would have been a better game if they'd cut out the 'away team' aspect entirely. It ended up being a ridiculous clickfest.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 20, 2016, 10:22:41 am
http://thespatials.com/ maybe not extra complex but there's plenty stuff to do, from room hosting your station tourist to send out away teams to unlock quadrants, to missions and quests, resource managements etc.I really wanted to like that game but it.. it just wasn't good. I honestly think it would have been a better game if they'd cut out the 'away team' aspect entirely. It ended up being a ridiculous clickfest.
true, so true. they fixed a little by having people autoshoot or something, but all the special abilities were extra annoying. but I put it on hold for different reasons: people gained too much experience serving food at a cafeteria and their payscale was tied to their level. so it became annoying to keep rotating them.
Post by: gomez on June 20, 2016, 11:47:20 am
I would love to know what happened to this.
Post by: Zangi on June 20, 2016, 12:15:45 pm
The away game portion is the worst, wish that was skippable. Plus I think you could just hold down your clicker rather then clickfesting it. (I wouldn't really call this game complex, but it is similar to the Caesar/Pharaoh/Impression City Builder games already mentioned.)http://thespatials.com/ maybe not extra complex but there's plenty stuff to do, from room hosting your station tourist to send out away teams to unlock quadrants, to missions and quests, resource managements etc.I really wanted to like that game but it.. it just wasn't good. I honestly think it would have been a better game if they'd cut out the 'away team' aspect entirely. It ended up being a ridiculous clickfest.
true, so true. they fixed a little by having people autoshoot or something, but all the special abilities were extra annoying. but I put it on hold for different reasons: people gained too much experience serving food at a cafeteria and their payscale was tied to their level. so it became annoying to keep rotating them.
It is getting a big overhaul soon(also a new steam listing). People who bought this game already will get a free copy of that if I remember correctly.
Post by: ParsleyPWG on June 20, 2016, 12:57:47 pm
Are there any complex space base simulators?
They're all Early Access failures.
The two I'm aware of - Spacebase DF9 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/246090) (I don't want to work on this anymore so I'll just label the current version 1.0 and no one can complain anymore), Space Station Alpha (http://store.steampowered.com/app/341930) (I wish I was Spacebase DF9).
There's another one that appeared more successful but I don't recall the name of it. I remember the player leading away missions to gather resources.
Spacebase DF9's failure was a disappointment to me. I hope this doesn't stop other developers from trying out the concept, as it does seem like something that could be really fun, even if it was simple 2D graphics. Like Prison Architect in space or something.
Post by: Jiharo on June 20, 2016, 01:45:25 pm
There was a game in production that was being talked about on these boards about a year ago, which was going to be like a cross between a single player SS13 and System Shock, but you played as the AI of the space station. The Dev was active in the thread.
I would love to know what happened to this.
Human Orbit: thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141612.0), site (http://humanorbit.com/). Didn't realize so much time passed, I'm curious as well.
Post by: MoonyTheHuman on June 20, 2016, 01:46:56 pm
Im actually tinkering with this idea, but if i do make something, its gonna be free and opensource.Are there any complex space base simulators?
They're all Early Access failures.
The two I'm aware of - Spacebase DF9 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/246090) (I don't want to work on this anymore so I'll just label the current version 1.0 and no one can complain anymore), Space Station Alpha (http://store.steampowered.com/app/341930) (I wish I was Spacebase DF9).
There's another one that appeared more successful but I don't recall the name of it. I remember the player leading away missions to gather resources.
Spacebase DF9's failure was a disappointment to me. I hope this doesn't stop other developers from trying out the concept, as it does seem like something that could be really fun, even if it was simple 2D graphics. Like Prison Architect in space or something.
Post by: Retropunch on June 20, 2016, 05:49:36 pm
Human Orbit: thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141612.0), site (http://humanorbit.com/). Didn't realize so much time passed, I'm curious as well.
Looks dead unfortunately - no posts on the blog for over a year (april '15) and nothing else out about it. It sounded great at the time, but a wildly ambitious project.
Post by: ParsleyPWG on June 20, 2016, 06:49:02 pm
Human Orbit: thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141612.0), site (http://humanorbit.com/). Didn't realize so much time passed, I'm curious as well.
Looks dead unfortunately - no posts on the blog for over a year (april '15) and nothing else out about it. It sounded great at the time, but a wildly ambitious project.
The environments do look nice but I wonder if there was any progress made towards having actual gameplay implemented. From reading that thread it looks like there were some ideas on mechanics but nothing solid to demonstrate
Post by: Folly on June 20, 2016, 07:20:02 pm
I'm playing Atelier Sophie right now, which got it's English release earlier this month, and I'm loving it.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 20, 2016, 07:25:21 pm
Just because I'm playing it right now, I feel the need to mention the Atelier series of RPG's. These games have some crafting systems that can get very complex, with dozens of subcombines involved in building weapons, armor, and consumables with super powerful traits and effects.Googled it, first picture is a 12 year old looking girl with massive boobs. I think I'll pass.
I'm playing Atelier Sophie right now, which got it's English release earlier this month, and I'm loving it.
Post by: Cormack on June 20, 2016, 07:33:12 pm
Just because I'm playing it right now, I feel the need to mention the Atelier series of RPG's. These games have some crafting systems that can get very complex, with dozens of subcombines involved in building weapons, armor, and consumables with super powerful traits and effects.Googled it, first picture is a 12 year old looking girl with massive boobs. I think I'll pass.
I'm playing Atelier Sophie right now, which got it's English release earlier this month, and I'm loving it.
Yeah, I think I'll pass too. What's wrong with people?
Post by: birdy51 on June 20, 2016, 07:44:13 pm
Especially since this more about an admittedly weird Japanese cultural thing than anything.
Post by: motorbitch on June 21, 2016, 07:48:06 am
very old school. not very difficult, but incredible complex. one just needs to know how stuff works to make things work.
Post by: Cthulhu on June 21, 2016, 05:04:11 pm
I wouldn't judge that book by it's cover. The Atelier series does pretty well for itself judging from the LPs that I have seen of it. I would recommend reading the first part of one of those if you want a real picture of what the game is.
Especially since this more about an admittedly weird Japanese cultural thing than anything.
People always seem weirdly eager to defend the sexualization of children and childlike figures when it's anime.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 21, 2016, 05:07:51 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 21, 2016, 05:48:00 pm
Spoiler: anime derail (click to show/hide)
Post by: birdy51 on June 21, 2016, 11:54:43 pm
im surprised noone mentioned eve so far.
very old school. not very difficult, but incredible complex. one just needs to know how stuff works to make things work.
I've only heard complicated things about EVE involving spreadsheets, so I am certain that this would likely fit the bill in some way shape or form.
Spoiler: Further Derailments (click to show/hide)
Post by: Culise on June 22, 2016, 12:26:16 am
Spoiler: Derail only, no items, Final Destination (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on June 22, 2016, 12:31:54 am
Hence Crusader Kings 2... and why no matter what relationship statuses are... People will still want eachother's deaths. To name one.
Yes I am still bitter about that. Destroyed the entire game for me that nothing mattered.
Post by: Gigalith on June 22, 2016, 09:55:19 am
Post by: Ekaton on June 25, 2016, 07:16:34 am
Post by: Cormack on July 02, 2016, 07:29:17 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on July 02, 2016, 09:37:07 pm
Any games that are like DF but in real world?
Unreal World loosely fits the bill.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 03, 2016, 02:19:23 am
Any games that are like DF but in real world?Prison Architect provides something surprisingly to DF's game flow without the massive slowdown and blatant balance issues. Although it is *not* complex. I mean its complex by normal standards but I'm not going to call it complex on the DF forums.
Post by: LoSboccacc on July 03, 2016, 03:20:34 am
Any games that are like DF but in real world?Prison Architect provides something surprisingly to DF's game flow without the massive slowdown and blatant balance issues. Although it is *not* complex. I mean its complex by normal standards but I'm not going to call it complex on the DF forums.
rimworld as well, and I enjoy the settings much much more (crash landed colony instead of gloomy prison)
Post by: Ekaton on July 03, 2016, 07:42:40 am
Post by: Trolldefender99 on May 29, 2019, 02:28:42 am
But the topic was mentioned on Rule the Waves 2 thread. And I was looking for complex games...and then I discovered Mars Simulation Project + war in the pacific, which I never heard about either.
I bought war in the pacific (wow is that expensive), but haven't started yet. I guess its a niche game so niche price, but I did see a video of it and it looks pretty intense. Like...someone said its almost not a game, and its pretty accurate.
Mars Simulation Project is still getting updates apparently? Their facebook is active, so I assume its still a thing. Can't find any videos on it though, get a bunch of stuff about surviving mars instead. But it sounds like a game I was wanting out of surviving mars, but super niche and complex I guess. We'll see when I get started.
So I haven't played both yet, and yeah this is from 2016...this is probably the biggest necro thread the forum has ever seen that wasn't from a bot or spammer lol. But both games look so amazing that I had to comment on it.
And hey maybe there'll be games since 2016 that are just as good and complex (besides rule the waves 2)
Post by: gimlet on May 29, 2019, 04:53:37 am
https://www.wallstreetraider.com/
Capitalism/Capitalism Lab.
Post by: ollobrains on May 29, 2019, 06:57:41 am
OpenTTD is getting there in the transport sim department with the rail and network setup.
Post by: Iduno on May 29, 2019, 08:02:32 am
The Paradox method tends to be... Disguise simplicity AS complexity without really having the interlocking requirements to go all the way.
Hence Crusader Kings 2... and why no matter what relationship statuses are... People will still want each other's deaths. To name one.
Yes I am still bitter about that. Destroyed the entire game for me that nothing mattered.
Super agreed.
Post by: AlStar on May 29, 2019, 09:06:12 am
I bought war in the pacific (wow is that expensive), but haven't started yet. I guess its a niche game so niche price, but I did see a video of it and it looks pretty intense. Like...someone said its almost not a game, and its pretty accurate.Hopefully the interface has aged gracefully - (I know that it's a bit different since we're talking about it in the Bay12 forums, where we are used to pain) - because as I remember when I played (many years ago, now) there was a lot of click-throughs required to really get into the meat of commanding your forces.
That said, it's an amazing game - best if you can find someone to play against, since the AI isn't terribly bright. I can still remember a squadron of WW1-era biplane torpedo bombers that I intentionally didn't upgrade, because their upgrade path turned them into some very, very poor fighter-bombers. I managed to launch a surprise attack with them against a taskforce that had little or no cap, and these flying relics actually managed to put a couple torpedoes into a battleship.
The pilots, naturally thrilled with this outcome, reported they'd managed to sink the ship; although when I was discussing it later with my opponent, learned that the ship had only been put into dry dock for ~6 months.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 29, 2019, 01:01:06 pm
Caves of Qud has a lot going on under the hood for a fairly standard roguelike. Like randomly generated historical figures to learn about and find the burial places of, randomly generated books that are semi-readable, randomly generated villages, and occasional randomly generated hostile NPCs (like in TOME 4, sometimes OP, sometimes weak).The Paradox method tends to be... Disguise simplicity AS complexity without really having the interlocking requirements to go all the way.
Hence Crusader Kings 2... and why no matter what relationship statuses are... People will still want each other's deaths. To name one.
Yes I am still bitter about that. Destroyed the entire game for me that nothing mattered.
Super agreed.
+1 to all of this, from Paradox to Qud.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on May 29, 2019, 01:43:43 pm
I bought war in the pacific (wow is that expensive), but haven't started yet. I guess its a niche game so niche price, but I did see a video of it and it looks pretty intense. Like...someone said its almost not a game, and its pretty accurate.Hopefully the interface has aged gracefully - (I know that it's a bit different since we're talking about it in the Bay12 forums, where we are used to pain) - because as I remember when I played (many years ago, now) there was a lot of click-throughs required to really get into the meat of commanding your forces.
That said, it's an amazing game - best if you can find someone to play against, since the AI isn't terribly bright. I can still remember a squadron of WW1-era biplane torpedo bombers that I intentionally didn't upgrade, because their upgrade path turned them into some very, very poor fighter-bombers. I managed to launch a surprise attack with them against a taskforce that had little or no cap, and these flying relics actually managed to put a couple torpedoes into a battleship.
The pilots, naturally thrilled with this outcome, reported they'd managed to sink the ship; although when I was discussing it later with my opponent, learned that the ship had only been put into dry dock for ~6 months.
I'm watching this guy play it (War in the Pacific). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OkROhMEEqM
Interface seems okay to me. Then again, I'm one of those people that doesn't tend to get bothered by how an interface is. So I can't say how good it is or not. It does look pretty complicated though, will take a long time to figure it out
I also picked up Caves of Qud since a few recommended it here already. That one looks like an amazing roguelike.
Post by: Iduno on May 29, 2019, 03:27:06 pm
I also picked up Caves of Qud since a few recommended it here already. That one looks like an amazing roguelike.
Good news is, even if you don't like the game, you can get your money's worth by reading the patch notes (https://steamcommunity.com/app/333640/discussions/0/530646080848194826/). One of the devs also had a lot of Tweets (if that's your thing) while developing the machine learning to write the books. It was like a curated version of the generator spam thread, including one about a mustached hero in red who ate mushrooms.
Post by: ndkid on May 29, 2019, 04:28:54 pm
Okay, okay. Yeah I know this is from 2016...
But the topic was mentioned on Rule the Waves 2 thread. And I was looking for complex games...and then I discovered Mars Simulation Project + war in the pacific, which I never heard about either.
I bought war in the pacific (wow is that expensive), but haven't started yet. I guess its a niche game so niche price, but I did see a video of it and it looks pretty intense. Like...someone said its almost not a game, and its pretty accurate.
Mars Simulation Project is still getting updates apparently? Their facebook is active, so I assume its still a thing. Can't find any videos on it though, get a bunch of stuff about surviving mars instead. But it sounds like a game I was wanting out of surviving mars, but super niche and complex I guess. We'll see when I get started.
So I haven't played both yet, and yeah this is from 2016...this is probably the biggest necro thread the forum has ever seen that wasn't from a bot or spammer lol. But both games look so amazing that I had to comment on it.
And hey maybe there'll be games since 2016 that are just as good and complex (besides rule the waves 2)
Huh, MSP looks way nicer than when I last remember seeing it... what, a decade ago? If you told me I'd seen it two decades ago, I wouldn't be shocked.
WitP is quite the monster... I think I tried to do the full campaign about three times, and never quite made it. The interface definitely isn't improved in Admiral's Edition compared to the original. But, especially playing as Japan, and getting to decide how much of each engine and plane I was going to produce felt so yummy, and was precisely the itch that Rule the Waves scratches so well.
Post by: shovelmonkey on May 29, 2019, 05:21:03 pm
Mars simulation project. Not really complex per say but fucking deep and detailed, dwarf fortress style deep and maybe even more. Think what would happen if DF became a space colony type simulator management. Sank so much hour in that thing its crazy deep and can be complex at time.
http://mars-sim.sourceforge.net/
While we are getting blasted from the past; anyone still playing this one? Why haven't I heard about this?
Post by: Trolldefender99 on May 29, 2019, 07:16:14 pm
Mars simulation project. Not really complex per say but fucking deep and detailed, dwarf fortress style deep and maybe even more. Think what would happen if DF became a space colony type simulator management. Sank so much hour in that thing its crazy deep and can be complex at time.
http://mars-sim.sourceforge.net/
While we are getting blasted from the past; anyone still playing this one? Why haven't I heard about this?
I haven't been able to get it to work. I followed the instructions and set the java to the path, but its super confusing because there are a ton of java versions and java 11 that is their supported version (through their more up to date GitHub page) doesn't seem to work. Doesn't even launch at all. A box opens then closes right away. Its pretty finicky to get working it appears. And beware of the fake java links that popup on google.
Post by: Vivalas on May 29, 2019, 10:39:35 pm
Mars simulation project. Not really complex per say but fucking deep and detailed, dwarf fortress style deep and maybe even more. Think what would happen if DF became a space colony type simulator management. Sank so much hour in that thing its crazy deep and can be complex at time.
http://mars-sim.sourceforge.net/
While we are getting blasted from the past; anyone still playing this one? Why haven't I heard about this?
I haven't been able to get it to work. I followed the instructions and set the java to the path, but its super confusing because there are a ton of java versions and java 11 that is their supported version (through their more up to date GitHub page) doesn't seem to work. Doesn't even launch at all. A box opens then closes right away. Its pretty finicky to get working it appears. And beware of the fake java links that popup on google.
I played it a few times but it felt way more like google earth with some very basic basebuilding stuff than a game. It's definitely more on the simulator side of things, as any challenge there is will need to be by your owj choosing. The last time I played it it didn't even auto-calculate flight times for resupply missions from Earth, you chose what you needed and when it would arrive, and if you wanted it would come instantly.
As an aside I don't think necroing threads is a bad thing. I don't understand why people get pissy about it or why people feel the need to justify it. I wouldn't have seen this thread or read about the some of these cool games otherwise.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 13, 2019, 03:01:12 pm
I'm about halfway through the tutorial and its pretty involved. Luckily my wife actually really enjoys it and even though she has never played a flight simulator before, she was teaching me how to play and what I was doing wrong and a ton better at it than me lol. But she does have some/a little experience since her uncle was/is in the airforce and so she knows the basics at least. I didn't even know how to take off properly and she knew right away lol.
But its nice that I found a game we both can play together.
Post by: jocan2003 on June 26, 2019, 03:37:40 pm
One hell of a blast yeah. I should try it again if i get the time.Mars simulation project. Not really complex per say but fucking deep and detailed, dwarf fortress style deep and maybe even more. Think what would happen if DF became a space colony type simulator management. Sank so much hour in that thing its crazy deep and can be complex at time.
http://mars-sim.sourceforge.net/
While we are getting blasted from the past; anyone still playing this one? Why haven't I heard about this?
Post by: catacombs on July 08, 2019, 05:05:56 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 08, 2019, 05:11:43 pm
Post by: catacombs on July 08, 2019, 05:14:58 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 08, 2019, 05:26:59 pm
The Paradox method tends to be... Disguise simplicity AS complexity without really having the interlocking requirements to go all the way.
Hence Crusader Kings 2... and why no matter what relationship statuses are... People will still want eachother's deaths. To name one.
Yes I am still bitter about that. Destroyed the entire game for me that nothing mattered.
Quote from: "In My Father's House" by the Princess Irulan
My father, the Padishah Emperor, took me by the hand one day and I sensed in the ways my mother had taught me that he was disturbed. He led me down the Hall of Portraits to the ego-likeness of the Duke Leto Atreides. I marked the strong resemblance between them--my father and this man in the portrait--both with thin, elegant faces and sharp features dominated by cold eyes. "Princess-daughter," my father said, "I would that you'd been older when it came time for this man to choose a woman." My father was 71 at the time and looking no older than the man in the portrait, and I was but 14, yet I remember deducing in that instant that my father secretly wished the Duke had been his son, and disliked the political necessities that made them enemies.
When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne. He blamed the Guild and the evil old Baron. He blamed everyone in sight, not excepting even me, for he said I was a witch like all the others. And when I sought to comfort him, saying it was done according to an older law of self-preservation to which even the most ancient rulers gave allegiance, he sneered at me and asked if I thought him a weakling.
Post by: Empty on July 08, 2019, 06:09:24 pm
Also try marathon mode if wanting for punishment.
Post by: sambojin on July 08, 2019, 06:16:27 pm
I like playing Hearts of Iron 4, but its not even the most complex Hearts of Iron game, much less one of the most complex RTS games.
Interesting. What's a more-complex RTS game than Ho4? I found EU4 and CK2 easier to learn.
Wargame: Red Dragon? Maybe. Very different genre though.
Post by: catacombs on July 08, 2019, 06:28:33 pm
Post by: Culise on July 08, 2019, 06:43:27 pm
Harpoon's also rather a gimme off the top of my head, though that's likely a bit of an unfair comparison.I like playing Hearts of Iron 4, but its not even the most complex Hearts of Iron game, much less one of the most complex RTS games.
Interesting. What's a more-complex RTS game than Ho4? I found EU4 and CK2 easier to learn.
Wargame: Red Dragon? Maybe. Very different genre though.
Post by: Persus13 on July 08, 2019, 08:36:52 pm
Personally, I found Hearts of Iron III to be more complex and less intuitive than 4, enough that I could barely get into it, while 4 was a lot easier for me to understand and play.I like playing Hearts of Iron 4, but its not even the most complex Hearts of Iron game, much less one of the most complex RTS games.
Interesting. What's a more-complex RTS game than Ho4? I found EU4 and CK2 easier to learn.
Post by: FAA on February 06, 2020, 06:03:00 pm
Post by: George_Chickens on February 08, 2020, 10:56:33 am
HoI 4 is wide as a shot glass and as shallow as a puddle, even with the DLCs, so I don't really think it's what the OP is looking for. It is also missing a fair amount of features from prior titles, which reduces the complexity further.
On the topic of the grand strategy genre, Revolution Under Siege Gold is easily one of the most complex I've played. It tracks ammo and the distance your soldiers fire at, for example. I'm not going to list all of the features because there are tons upon tons. The only real problem is it's an AGEOD game and the engine very obviously cannot handle something of its size, so it's laggy and crashy from time to time.
You may also be interested in other AGEOD games. I have heard people complain that Victoria 2 is too shallow and not realistic enough, and all of them have praised Pride of Nations. I haven't played it for more than half an hour, but it seemed to be extremely complex, and didn't seem to be falling apart as bad as most other AGEOD games.
Post by: Persus13 on February 08, 2020, 01:54:40 pm
And George's post is pretty accurate. I like playing Hearts of Iron IV btter, but III is far more complex. And at the end of the day, there are far more complex games in that genre.
Post by: Showbiz on February 09, 2020, 05:56:41 am
JA 2 with the Mod 1.13 is one of the greatest games of all time.
I'd also second JA2 as a great one.
Post by: FAA on February 09, 2020, 10:30:25 am
JA 2 with the Mod 1.13 is one of the greatest games of all time.
I'd also second JA2 as a great one.
There is a bit too much micromanagement for my taste, though. Wound management is awful and it’s hard to tell what’s happening, too.
Post by: Greenbane on February 10, 2020, 07:54:08 am
Harpoon's also rather a gimme off the top of my head, though that's likely a bit of an unfair comparison.I like playing Hearts of Iron 4, but its not even the most complex Hearts of Iron game, much less one of the most complex RTS games.
Interesting. What's a more-complex RTS game than Ho4? I found EU4 and CK2 easier to learn.
Wargame: Red Dragon? Maybe. Very different genre though.
I know this is an old post, but the modern successor to Harpoon is the recently released Command Modern Operations (CMO). It's currently on Steam, and itself a successor of Command Modern Air & Naval Operations (CMANO), which had been out for a few years. Rather pricey, but it's pretty good.
Post by: FAA on February 12, 2020, 10:34:16 am
Harpoon's also rather a gimme off the top of my head, though that's likely a bit of an unfair comparison.I like playing Hearts of Iron 4, but its not even the most complex Hearts of Iron game, much less one of the most complex RTS games.
Interesting. What's a more-complex RTS game than Ho4? I found EU4 and CK2 easier to learn.
Wargame: Red Dragon? Maybe. Very different genre though.
I know this is an old post, but the modern successor to Harpoon is the recently released Command Modern Operations (CMO). It's currently on Steam, and itself a successor of Command Modern Air & Naval Operations (CMANO), which had been out for a few years. Rather pricey, but it's pretty good.
Hear, hear, a great game.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on February 17, 2020, 11:18:04 pm
Harpoon's also rather a gimme off the top of my head, though that's likely a bit of an unfair comparison.I like playing Hearts of Iron 4, but its not even the most complex Hearts of Iron game, much less one of the most complex RTS games.
Interesting. What's a more-complex RTS game than Ho4? I found EU4 and CK2 easier to learn.
Wargame: Red Dragon? Maybe. Very different genre though.
I know this is an old post, but the modern successor to Harpoon is the recently released Command Modern Operations (CMO). It's currently on Steam, and itself a successor of Command Modern Air & Naval Operations (CMANO), which had been out for a few years. Rather pricey, but it's pretty good.
Command Modern Operations looks amazing. At 80 dollars not an easy buy though, but when I upgrade my PC next month maybe I can spend some or just wait for a sale.
But from seeing videos, thats definitely up my alley.
(edit: And wow. Thats a lot of DLC. So game is 80 dollars + 132 USD worth of DLC. I didn't notice that rofl. I'd still get it and slowly get the DLC, but that is a lot of dlc for a newer game)
Post by: EuchreJack on February 19, 2020, 06:22:58 pm
They're starting to experiment with having focus trees change upon country change with Tlalocan's death leading to three different countries, player chose one and get new focus tree. This feature could be evolved to having something where a minor country (any minor country) that forms a major country via conquest could in turn get a new focus tree with new stuff. They just have to work out the bugs where the new country doesn't get to keep most of its stuff...
Post by: Persus13 on February 20, 2020, 10:42:47 am
Washington Brotherhood and Troll Warrens were good starter nations, iirc.
Post by: Devastator on February 20, 2020, 10:55:44 am