Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Gameplay Questions => Topic started by: GeneralValter on May 18, 2008, 02:47:00 pm

Title: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: GeneralValter on May 18, 2008, 02:47:00 pm
In a single sentence, I never really got the hang of it. I'm good at making forts last, good at making massive wealth, and have some awesome trap ideas I use now and then, but I never really learned how to make my forts look good. I use "tack it on when I need it" structuring, which results in hideous masses of hallways, bedrooms, workshops and dining halls. Looking at some of them causes my brain to try escaping out of my ear.

Point is, does anybody have any reliable/useful method of fortress planning? Productivity really goes down after a few years in my forts, just because lack of stockpile/workshop planning causes everything to be 1000 steps away from everything else.

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Sevrun on May 18, 2008, 04:28:00 pm
I've just started a kinda spiral method for building my fort which spreads everything out rather nicely...  A few basic suggestions would be putting the raw material stocks for a workshop on the z-level directly above or below it...  Making room for grouping of similar workshops (or multiple) by digging a 6x6 area for it as opposed to merely a 3x3.

The trick really does seem to be efficient use of the Z-levels, honestly.

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Solara on May 18, 2008, 04:29:00 pm
If I'm not screwing around with a new idea and just want straight efficiency I tend to use roughly the same boring but serviceable design almost every time.

The first level contains, in order, the entrance hall, dining room, statue room/zoo, and meeting room.*

On either side of the entrance hall I build the barracks and archery targets, with room for their associated stockpiles, so that my military will be near where they're needed in case of attack. (I even go so far as to assign each barracks bed to a soldier so that they definitely sleep there and also because civilians hogging the beds gets on my nerves)

Between the dining hall and statue room is a 3x3 stairwell which is a straight shaft down to the bottom of my fortress. First it leads to the food stockpile, with rooms leading off to the farm on one side and the food-related workshops on the other. Directly below that, a vast storage room for stone, wood, gems, furniture, finished goods -- everything really. Beneath that is a big area shaped like a sideways cross - all my workshops go on the three short ends, with the long end leading to bedrooms and another staircase that goes up to connect with the meeting hall. Bedrooms surround this shaft at every level and I assign them to the dwarves that are most likely to work or hang out on that level, because I'm just obsessive like that.    

Of course, all this takes time, especially the part where you have to clear away roughly a billion trillion rocks, so for the first year or so everyone just lives in one giant cluttered hellhole next to the starting wagon.


*If I'm on a spot with a lot of soil I switch things around slightly and put the farms and food storeroom up top, so the dining room etc. can be dug lower down in nice engraveable stone.

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Melloth on May 19, 2008, 11:38:00 am
I tend to approach it as a city builder. Though it worries me my fortresses are a mess, all while I study Environmental Planning..
You could try and get some inspiration in the classic models such as the concentric model (Burgess), sector model (Hoyt) or the multiple nuclei (Harris and Ullman). Wiki it if you are curious. Add your own wicked twist and doomsday devices and you're set.

As for the future plans, I'm eager for Core 28-30, and see how much I can create the central places model (Christaller). Nevermind all the other awesome things to come.  :D

I also tend to kill threads, I hope this one continues.. (sorry beforehand!)

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Baney on May 19, 2008, 12:46:00 pm
I tend to build 'Suburbs'

code:

......XXXXXXX......
......X-----X......
..XXXXX-----XXXXX..
..X---D-----D---X..
..X---X-----X---X..
..X---X-----X---X..
XXXDXXXXXDXXXXXDXXX
X-----X-----X-----X
X-----X-----X-----X
X-----D-----D-----X
X-----X-----X-----X
X-----X-----X-----X
XXXDXXXXXDXXXXXDXXX
..X---X-----X---X..
..X---X-----X---X..
..X---D-----D---X..
..XXXXX-----XXXXX..
......X-----X......
......XXXXXXX......

These can be joined by Starcases in the central Chamber, or Corridors between.

The outer 5X5 rooms make great Farms, Stores etc, the 3x3 Rooms for the Appropriate Workshops or bedrooms, Since the stores in this 'village' match the requirements of the workshops and usually the drop off goods also go to this area. By then assigning One of the 5x5's as a food/beer/hall, set the tables for the locals, set the workshops for the locals, and set other designated stores to 'gather from' these village style placements, their bedrooms are in the village, checking for parents/children/marriages/friends in the same area..

Usually they dont go very far, and I can run very very large games, with very little lag.

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Thassa on May 22, 2008, 05:42:00 pm
Mine always starts out with two corridors 3 wide that cross each other.  In one corner goes the apartment stack (some variant of THLawrence's Living Pods with a bit more room), in another the food stack (Farms, food stockpiles, food workshops and dining room stacked appropriately), smithy workshops and related storage in another corner, and the main craft related shops in the final quarter.  Since the corridors separating everything are 3 wide, the workshops don't wake up sleeping dwarves, and with all the storage areas for things located just above or below the related work areas, no one spends a lot of time walking to collect materials.

It doesn't look messy, but it also doesn't look all that impressive though.

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: mickel on May 23, 2008, 02:49:00 am
I tend to use a structure I started with in the 2d version and that stuck with me, and that is the grid of 5x5 rooms separated by 1 unit thick walls. I lay out the fortress like that, and then I can turn every 5x5 unit into anything I want. By knocking out 3-wide openings in the walls I can tie them together into corridors. By knocking out 1-wide openings I get doorways, or larger, pillared halls useful for dining rooms, etc.

Since I explain badly, I'll give an example:

code:

|<CORRIDOR>|
###################
#.....#.....#.....#
#.................#
#.................#
#.................#
#.....#.....#.....#
##+#+####.#####.###
#0.0.0#...........#
#0.0.0#.===.#.===.#
#0.0.0#...........#
#0.0.0#.===.#.===.#
#0.0.0#...........#
###################
BEDS  DININGROOM


There. That was probably unnecessary, but I like to play with dots and hashes.  :)
Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Jetman123 on May 23, 2008, 04:17:00 am
Clearly designate places for work, sleep, meeting, etc. Workplaces should be large and open and house both large stockpiles for the workshops and the workshops themselves right next to the stockpiles. Make it relatively square.

Standardize room size and placement. I usually go with 3x3 rooms attached to a two-tile wide corridor. For the newer, cheaper rooms once the economy starts, I leave them unsmoothed and 2x2 or 2x3.

From the points that branch out into the hallways that your bedrooms attach to, make a hub with statues at each corner, leading in four directions. Near the living spaces should be an area directly made for office space.

Leave the corridors _open_ so that you can expand almost infinitely in lines or squares when you need to.

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: HungryHobo on May 23, 2008, 08:10:00 am
Myself I've found a design which works great.
A central corridor, 3 wide with the entire middle row filled with up/down staircases.
this repeats down to the bottom z level.
Magma Forges+farms off to either end and taking a few Z levels for bars/furnaces/farms/stockpiles.

Floor 1 is workshops. 3x3 workshops get put at the center of a 5x5 stockpile for their raw material.
Floor 2 is storage/dining room.
floor 3 is storage.
floor 4 is storage.
floor 5 is bedrooms.
floor 6 is more bedrooms.
Floor 7 is nobles quarters + misc.
Floor 8 is graveyards.

I've found it works really well.

#########DD########DD##
.......................
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
.......................
#########DD########DD##

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Elitay on May 23, 2008, 09:05:00 am
I pack everything into a 10x10 tower both above and below ground.
Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: ElectricalFire on May 23, 2008, 06:57:00 pm
Graph paper is your friend.

I really got sick of my ugly-but-functional fortresses, so I printed out some graph paper and got to work.  Took about an hour and a half but I had a blast doing it. My fortress is in its fifth year and it looks almost exactly like I had planned!

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Elitay on May 23, 2008, 07:03:00 pm
Hmm... yes. MSPaint also works if you treat the pixels as squares and zoom REAL close. This also lets you do circles and stuff.

[ May 23, 2008: Message edited by: Elitay ]

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Cthulhu on May 23, 2008, 07:24:00 pm
I do the tack-it-on thing too.  My fortresses are generally very compact, with everything I need compressed into a thousand or so tiles.
Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Inquisitor Saturn on May 23, 2008, 08:46:00 pm
Most people tack stuff on too, but nowadays I have a general idea where things should go, like on the surface is an outdoor gathering area, second floor is farms  and workshops, third is storage, trade, and external access, and below that is everything else.
Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Donkringel on May 24, 2008, 05:05:00 pm
If your mining, just designate everything in advance (after mapping out your requirements) but keep a thin sliver of rock to keep your miners from working on unneeded areas.
Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: zagibu on May 24, 2008, 05:35:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Donkringel:
<STRONG>If your mining, just designate everything in advance (after mapping out your requirements) but keep a thin sliver of rock to keep your miners from working on unneeded areas.</STRONG>

That's what I do, sometimes, but I'm always afraid that it will generate unnecessary CPU load, because all miners are constantly checking if they can go mine there. Not sure if my fear is reasonable, though...
Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Fedor on May 24, 2008, 05:48:00 pm
My preferred solution at most forts is a temporary work camp.  The founders set up the camp, and only when the main fortress is habitable do the dwarves move into it.  This often takes between two and five years.

Work camp design specifics vary, but they always:
* Avoid tearing up the landscape too much.
* Place crops, food-preparation, the dining hall, and a critical industry or two in close proximity.
* Pay some attention to defense against minor threats.

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Kidiri on May 25, 2008, 08:46:00 am
I always go for a central 3 by 3 staircase with the middle stairs replaced by grates to allow water pour through. Every floor is a square (except for maybe the bedroom-level and the catacomb-level if I start too close to the edge) and has eight doors leading to the staircase. On ground level, there is the Trade Depot and above ground farming. On z-1, I have the farms/livestock. Z-2 is for the workshops, and right underneath them are the main stockpiles. On z-4 I have a large well-/fishing-room with pools/bathroom on every side (you never know when you accidentally flood your fortress, plus I want a legendary everything) Underneath that is an enormous reservoir that taps into my moat, supplied by a brook. Then you'll find the dining rooms, for the common folk and noblemen alike. Then the offices, and underneath them there are the bedrooms located. Fully smoothed and engraved for the nobles, rough for the commoners. Underneath, the catacombs. Fully smoothed for all. And a level below is where the seats for the (round!) arena are allocated. And underneath, obviously, the arena itself. This will be  a perfect example of dwarven ingenuity. Maybe I'll load up a map of it. Then we have the main animal stockpile to provide quick access to the arena. What will come underneath that, I have no idea yet, but on the lowest level, I'll have the reservoir for the water that fell all the way down. From there it will be pumped back up to the highest top of the map, from where it will make my dwarves happy again by flowing all the way down.
Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: RetSpline on May 25, 2008, 10:14:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by Baney:
code:

......XXXXXXX......
......X-----X......
..XXXXX-----XXXXX..
..X---D-----D---X..
..X---X-----X---X..
..X---X-----X---X..
XXXDXXXXXDXXXXXDXXX
X-----X-----X-----X
X-----X-----X-----X
X-----D-----D-----X
X-----X-----X-----X
X-----X-----X-----X
XXXDXXXXXDXXXXXDXXX
..X---X-----X---X..
..X---X-----X---X..
..X---D-----D---X..
..XXXXX-----XXXXX..
......X-----X......
......XXXXXXX......


[/QB]

How well does that work for noise spread? I guess if you specified one side (say, the left side) for bedrooms, and the other (right side) for workshops, it would fine.

I'm so obsessed with finding a workable design that I like that I've rarely gotten past the first summer before making a new fortress, and what I've been using recently is a modular design composed of alternating 5x5 and 7x7 rooms, with 3-wide halls in between. I place farms and workshops in the 5x5 squares, and stockpiles in the 7x7.

Also, the 7x7 and 5x5 rooms alternate between Z-layers, so from a side view it would look like:

code:

#.......#
##.....##
#.......#

Below and above each workshop are stockpiles of the appropriate type.

It's not a perfect design, but (I think) it looks good, and works.

Title: Re: Euclidian Architecture
Post by: Nesoo on May 25, 2008, 07:57:00 pm
Inspired by Roarsilver, I'm working on a circular design. I'll be sure to post pics once I get it all planned out. So far I have plans (in MSPaint) for a workshop level, storage level, nobles level, and dining level (which was improved once I got to actually designating it), and I have a Barracks/archery range level designated (pretty much designed on the fly) which I need to transfer to MSPaint. I'm having trouble coming up with an apartment level, however, and I still need to design others, such as the farming level and a burial level. There's also going to be a central 3x3 stairway with a waterfall down the center.