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Alright, first post - I'm new, fourth fortress going, although none of them have actually crapped out yet. I'm trying to build a moat around the entrance to my fort. It's built into a hillside, so the plan is just to create a tiny one around the entrance with a bridge to allow caravans into the depot.
I've got a 3 tile wide channel dug around where I need it to be, and walls over the hill around to the moat. But when I try and have my dwarf brigade dump water in (by bucket, I haven't gotten the hang of any of the fancy mechanism stuff yet), it doesn't stick around very long. There's water in the moat, but it only gets to be about 1 or 2 deep. Is it evaporating or sinking into the walls? The walls are sand, not stone. Would that cause a problem? Can the walls be saturated with water to the point of no longer absorbing it, or do I need to dig down further into the rock to get a moat functioning?
Thanks.[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Kg ]
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Evaporating, most likely.
[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: juckto ]
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I believe the water evaporates only if it is 1 or 2 (?) points out of 7 deep. The problem is you have a big moat, and the water spreads around. It will take a lot of time to fill it above 1/7 with buckets (each point means one bucket, I think), and the problem is the water evaporates sooner.
You could perhaps try contructing some walls or floodgates and dividing the moat to smaller parts - say 3 x 3. Fill them each separately and when they are full, deconstruct those walls (or floodgates). This is just a guess, though, I haven't tried it.
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Dunno how big your moat is but it seems that you'll need a lot of dwarves hauling buckets with water before it'll gets filled, if i'm correct then placing several smaller waterdump areas is better then one large one. Also, any reason why you want to fill the moat with water? (well maybe?) Oh and where do you get your water from, i would say to just dig a tunnel towards the watersource.
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I tried making a moat too, Also, tried to fill a 3x3 well 5 deep, so many grand designs.. with so many flaws..
If the water source your getting from is infinate (rivers/streams) trying to get a decnt moat is fairly easy.. so lets skip that
Trying to get a decent moat without it.. Eep.
Getting it from another water source can be useless, Unfortunately you cannot dump dirt into a river to make it flow down source paths, and opening them up? well, it just dries up before you get even half of it to the pond..
I can only say that water 'seems' to flow out of soils faster than from stone, but I've seen it dissapear into solid rock too!?
a successful method I had was to dig single square channels along the path of my eventual moat, set as ponds and have them filled. then, making sure I have at least 3-4 peasants set to hauling jobs, I set the entire zone as one big pond, and systematically dig out 1 gap at a time, making sure to wait for the water to reach levels 6 or 7 before digging out the next gap.. after 2-3 gaps filled, I can get away with opeing 2-3 at a time, once its at least 60% complete, I can open up all the rest at once, as the many little 3's 4's and 5's float around, while my little guys fill it up.
Yet to try in a 'warm' climate...
[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Baney ]
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It's evaporating. Outdoor water that's not connected to a source (like a river, brook, or aquifer) will always slowly evaporate, so if you've got a big moat, it'll probably evaporate faster than you can fill it. Indoors, water only evaporates if it's at 1/7 depth. You could use constructions (b-C) to build some sort of overhanging sun roof above your moat. I -think- once the water's in the shade it'll only evaporate at depth 1, like indoor water. It's a crazy plan, but that's what DF is for!
Alternately, you can channel/tunnel your moat to a water source, possibly with some floodgates for safety, and fill it up that way.
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You could always just dig it so that anybody who falls in dies/starves to death
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If you dig it deep enough, you won't have to wait for them to starve.
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I'd say to you: use pumps. They make wonders.
I.e. my suggestion - construct a real aqueduct with water/wind powered pumps. It will fill your moat fast. Don't forget to set up a switch, or you will flood everything.
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Use pumps or a connection to a river/brook.
I wouldn't really reccommend a river too much though. Most fish are bloodthirsty killers. A longnose gar in my latest game has a name and killed three of my 7 dwarves already.
Luckily, an immigrant wave came and raised that count to 15.
But not after the longnose gar killed a child and a dog while they were crossing the bridge.
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Why would you want to fill the moat in the first place is the real question here. I mean, almost half of the current existing creatures out their can swim. The best thing to do is probably just to leave your moat as a trench and then build a wall right smack dab up behind it. Unless, of course, you just want a moat for aesthetic design.
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Alright, so far it seems like it's just evaporation. It is indeed outside, and it is indeed rather large. That sure makes it sound like that would be my problem.
I do want it filled with water for two reasons - one is because I do need a well, and my dwarves are complaining about filthy water, and the other is because I had such a problem with my dwarves falling in that I had to build a ramp out of it - if it's just a pit, someone can climb out. As to all forthcoming suggestions of getting rid of the ramp, I can't really figure out a good way to do so without losing a dwarf. I already lost a legendary miner somewhere in the mere construction of my base - I'm not a good manager. :P
As for the solutions - I'm surrounded by ponds. I don't see a river or even a large lake in the area, or I'd have given channeling from the source a shot. None of the immediately available water sources are suitable for fueling the moat, and I have yet to encounter an underground one.
The smaller moat being built into a bigger one seems like a good idea - I might try that one. I bet I'll lost a dwarf who digs himself into the moat when I expand it, but maybe there's a solution to that.
Also, from the sounds of things, water doesn't evaporate over a certain limit? If I have a 5/7 in my moat, it won't evaporate, right? Or is that just inside?
And as to pumps - I'm a dabbling mechanic at best. I can't figure out the mechanics, and I'd rather build a functional stone age fortress and upgrade it when I figure that stuff out in a controlled environment.
Also, I'm not worried about wildlife too much - I've never lost a single dwarf to a wild creature, just one or two to goblins when I wasn't paying enough attention to (A)ctivate them.Now that said, I'm thinking just a pit is better. Creatures can swim, water is dumb, l2mechanics n00b and all that. But now I want a moat because I set out to make a bitchin' moat. So.
I shall try the growing moat idea. Bit by bit. Also, concievably the build a roof idea. But thank you all for identifying the problem for me so I can fix it. Will post progress report later.
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If you are like me, and don't mind cheating a little bit, grab Gibbed's DF Tweak utility (look for it on the Wiki).
Use tile edit to modify a wall (yes, a wall) adjacent to your moat to make it into an aquifer (Designation 22). Close your eyes now, and imagine your Dwarfs being intelligent, and creating a bucket line or something.
Un-pause, and enjoy your hilarious fantasy for a minute or so. When you are done, your moat should be full. :)
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If you don't start out on either a Brook/River, an aquifer, or a cave river, then I fear your dreams of a moat will be unsustainable. Even worse so if you made the moat too large.
In such a outcome you're only hope will be a tile-hack, like Gibbed's Tweak that Tenebrous spoke of.
While you're at the wiki, grab the regional prospector from the utilities section to make sure your starting location is the one you want. It really takes the pain out of 'choose a site and pray for magma/cave river/whatever'. Good luck :)
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quote:
Originally posted by RPharazon:
<STRONG>Use pumps or a connection to a river/brook.I wouldn't really reccommend a river too much though. Most fish are bloodthirsty killers. A longnose gar in my latest game has a name and killed three of my 7 dwarves already.
Luckily, an immigrant wave came and raised that count to 15.
But not after the longnose gar killed a child and a dog while they were crossing the bridge.</STRONG>
Carp-safe bridge: build 3 (3-wide) bridges next to another, then set the traffic designation of the 2 outer bridges to restricted and the inner to high traffic.
Prepare to lose some dwarves during construction, or assign some marksdwarves next to the river at the building site.
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Can fish pass through grates? Since I dig a tunnel between my moat to be and right up NEXT to the water source, I always end up putting a grate up at the edge of where the moat meets the tunnel. This has a nice side effect of preventing my dwarves from running way down the tunnel to pick up a rock while it's filling. Of course, I'm not 100% sure a grate actually blocks a fish, the wiki is somewhat unclear.
To connect the tunnel to the water source, I just dig a channel between the two one z level up, which has worked out for me well so far.
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From what I know, except for a few weird bugs, wall grates will block all creatures from passing through them. However, evolution in Dwarf Fortress occurs very fast, and carp can probably evolve from the floating plankton and whatnot in a short amount of time as a couple years.