Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Adventure Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 06:22:51 am

Title: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 06:22:51 am
Forward: Phew, this post turned out way longer than I thought it would, so sorry for the wall of text, but I hope you enjoy it.

Now that the new version of DF is out I've been getting back into the game, and I wanted to try out the new stuff I'd heard about in adventure mode. So I read back over the quickstart guide on the wiki to figure out some decent starting stats/skill and remind myself what the key-bindings are. Then I rolled up a demi-god swordsman and started questing. He died on his second mission, in swordsmanly combat.  His reincarnation fared better, taking out enough small timers to get a quest to take out a dragon, unfortunately he was melted to death because his companions didn't care for a stealth approach when entering the cramped quarters of a fire-breathing beast's lair.  The next few died mostly of impatience, as raiding forts for armor to equip was starting to feel tedious.

I had just created my sixth adventurer in two hours of playtime and was starting to feel a bit frustrated.  This latest character (Sai VI Fatebound The Immortal Shadow Of Death) started off like usual, at the edge of some town or hamlet, except I noticed he was standing just a few tiles away from a stray dog.  I felt like doing something mean, so I sauntered over and aimed a kick at it's tail.  Seeing as it was an impossible shot and I had exactly 0 skill in kicker, it should come as no surprise that I missed.  I had assumed that the dog would run away, like most random wildlife does when attacked, but apparently this dog was not willing to let the issue drop.  It followed me, attacking several times before my adventurer got fed up and counter-attacked automatically, striking it in the head with the pommel of his bronze longsword and jamming the skull into the brain.  Uh, oops.  So, just as any good adventurer would, I butchered the corpse and stuffed the dog meat into my pack. Waste not, want not and all that.

That done, I was starting to feel kind of bad.  I had attacked, killed, butchered, and pillaged some poor sod's dog, essentially without provocation, and all in the first 30 turns of my new adventuring career.  I know it was a 'stray' dog, but it was also (Tame), and it belonged to these townspeople.  Well, I had been planning on wandering the wilderness hunting whatever wildlife I could to build up my sword skills, but I sort of wanted to make things right here before I left.  I didn't expect that any of the NPCs in town would be sophisticated enough to talk about the fact that I'd just murdered their dog, but I could go to the nearby house and ask about a service, maybe kill some night creature or bandit leader for the townspeople, by way of apology.  So I headed on over to the house, stepped into the doorway, and promptly beheaded the tanner standing on the other side. Oh, Shit.

What the hell just happened!?  I was holding down the right arrow key to move into the house, and... attempting to move onto a tile occupied by a hostile creature causes your adventurer to execute an unaimed attack...  I guess this dwarf tanner was standing here peeking out the door and witnessed my second degree dog-slaughter, and it must have offended him so deeply that he marked himself hostile to me.  I would have tried some diplomacy first, but the damn random number generator hates me; I just had to slash the guy's head off in one hit, instead of missing or performing some useless wrestling grab like an unaimed attack usually does. I really doubted anyone would believe me if I claimed to have cut his head off 'by accident'.

Hmm, maybe no one witnessed my little, ah, indiscretion.  I took a few steps into the room to see if anyone else was home, and noticed there was a second tanner in the vicinity, and he was heading straight for me.  I didn't think he was coming over to shake my hand, but I waited a few turns just to see what he would do.  Sure enough, the hairy little fellow stabbed me in the chest with his copper slicing knife, bruising the fat through my llama wool... dress?  I tried talking to him with 'k', but that didn't seem to do anything at all.  It looked like I had two choices, either defend myself or let this dwarf kill me in recompense for accidentally decapitating his flatmate. 

I got into character and thought to myself "Screw this, I spent my last five incarnations fighting bogeymen, bandits, night creatures, and a fire-breathing dragon for the sake of these lazy peasants who never do a thing for themselves, and just stand around in their houses all day.  I'm not about to roll over and die for this useless little pushover."  So I aimed a few retaliatory attacks of my own, and within a few rounds I had disarmed him (by chopping off his weapon hand really), smashed up one of his legs, and mortally wounded him with a stab to the lung, and all without a scratch on me beyond the initial bruise.  It seemed he'd had his fill of fighting as he wisely started to crawl away from me, toward the door on the opposite side of the room.  I was content to let him go, figuring that between his horrible maiming and my abrupt murder-entry he had learned not to mess with me.

Not sure what to do next, I decided to loot the first dwarf's body and check the house for other valuables, just as any good adventurer would do.  There was nothing but clothes on the body and the plant bag in the corner contained only inedible rope reeds, but as I continued my search the maimed dwarf finally dragged himself to the door.  It didn't lead to the outside as I had assumed, instead it opened to another room of the building, this one with another four dwarfs idling in it.  I suppose that from their perspective things must've look pretty cut and dried, what with me standing there rifling through their possessions, a bloody longsword in my hand, a headless body laying in a pool of blood by the door, and a gasping, disfigured dwarf leaving a trail of blood behind as he desperately dragged himself away from me.

Naturally, they decided it was time to get dwarfy and rushed in for a fight.  They had me outnumbered, but I had certain advantages of my own, such as a weapon, a shield, advanced martial skills, and the ability to target specific body-parts for best combat efficiency.  The civilians really were nothing compared to the bandits and creatures I'd fought before and in the end it didn't take long to get them sorted out.  Afterward I found the maimed dwarf from earlier had bled out during the fight.  Then I took a minute to survey the results of my apology visit: blood on every surface, miscellaneous body parts strewn about, six mutilated dwarf corpses, and an empty quest log.

See for yourself:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, I was a serial killer, and a cross-dresser too, apparently.  I guess you find out new things about yourself every day.  I had never done anything like this in my past adventure-mode games, or my adventurer's past lives, as I tend to think of them.  I really had no idea what came next.  I assumed that the town guard would show up, armed and armored to deliver justice, but as I stepped outside I saw no one in the immediate area.  Which made sense, I thought, after all the guards wouldn't 'just know' that I'd killed a bunch of people, someone would need to find the bodies and report the crime.  Hell, maybe I could just walk away and no one would ever know I did it.  I could find another house, get some quests and try to apologize again.  I'm not sure exactly how many good deeds you have to do to make up for a minor murder-spree, but slaying a few dragons and deposing some vampires couldn't go amiss.

With renewed hope I set off for another house that I had seen earlier.  Halfway there something unusual happened.  Animals burst from the hills by the dozen, a veritable horde of Dogs, Ducks, and Drakes.  Like something out of a dream, they converged from every direction and as the first of them reached me I realized they were attacking.  I fought, and they died easily without even coming close to hurting me.  They were numerous, but individually they were laughably weak.  After the first dozen or so fell, many of them began to retreat, only to rally and charge again.  Eventually their numbers dwindled to nothing, and I was left to wonder what had just happened.  Were these animals seeking revenge for their fallen comrade, or perhaps even more bizarrely they were the police force in this town.

Results of the mass animal attack:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I thought about butchering the corpses, but a field full of neatly butchered animals might be even more conspicuous than a house full of dead dwarfs, and the weight of the meat would've slowed me to snails pace anyway.  Instead I continued on, towards the other house, to see what the inhabitants would make of me.  At least covered with so much animal blood from head to toe, no one could make out the dwarf-blood stains from earlier.  Though I'm not sure if there's a readily discernible difference between the two.

As I made my approach to the house I took each step leading up to the door with great care.  I managed to make it into the doorway without killing anyone, and found the room ahead to be empty.  There was a door in the back wall, presumably to another room in the elongated building.  I crossed the room, again carefully, and stepped into the next doorway.  There was a human bone carver in the next room.  As I stepped forward and waited, he approached me.  I tried diplomacy again, but he refused to answer.  I let him close the distance, maybe he just thought I needed help, because of all the blood I was covered in.  Come to think of it, walking into a person's house covered in blood might not be the best way to make a good first impression.  He seemed to agree, as he began attacking as soon as he was close enough.  Damn, maybe I could calm him down?  I tried slapping him in the lower body with the flat of my blade until he began vomiting.  Well, this stopped him from attacking, but I didn't think it would lead to peace the long term.  Eventually he recovered enough to resume his attack, I wasn't sure what else to do, so I tried gently breaking his bones until he became unconscious, but even this didn't get him talking.  In the end I put him down, as it seemed more humane than leaving his crippled body to starve.

I had tried all three things I could think of to make peace with the hostile towns-person, and it seemed as though I just couldn't make amends.  Moreover, the man had known what I had done somehow, despite being in the windowless back room of his house, maybe he 'just knew', or maybe those strange animals had seen me leaving the murder-house and warned everyone in town.  Either way it hardly mattered.  Unless I wanted to fight more innocents, I would have to skip town and make my way out of this territory post-haste.  I searched the second house and took stock of my supplies before leaving.  There was nothing of use here either, but I had enough food for a week and enough drink for several months in the form of blood splatter coatings. 

Out of curiosity, I checked to see how far my skills had progressed from all the combat.  Rather amazingly my dodger was nearly up to talented from proficient, and my swordsmanship had gone from skilled to nearly talented.  In fact, the villagers and their animals were quite easy to kill, and almost completely risk free.  I started to think about it, and really, that first 'murder' was really more of an 'honest mistake', and all the other murders were more like 'self-defense'.  Besides, I hadn't really tried all that hard to make good with these people, and if they all turned out to be irrevocably hostile that wouldn't really be my fault now would it?  I decided to search the town for some people who might be willing to listen to me and offer me some task for atonement, and if some unreasonable townspeople attacked me along the way, well they would just have to be 'self-defensed'.  And if I happened to gain a great deal of sword skill from all the 'self-defense' that I couldn't avoid, then at least I could put that skill to use later ridding the world of monsters.

...

Several hours have passed since this incident began, and I have explored a great deal of the town and discovered that it has had a huge multiracial population of Humans, Dwarfs, and, most curiously, Goblins.  Unfortunately I have not found anyone that would listen to reason and was forced to 'self-defense' a combined total of six-hundred and four townspeople and tame animals, with around one-hundred and fifty of those being the animal portion.  My inventory has also accrued over sixty pages of blood spatter coatings, though they don't seem to encumber me, for some strange reason.  On the bright side, my sword and fighter skills have grown to legendary with dodger at master level.  I will continue my search here for a while longer, but if I find no one to accept my help, I may have to leave for another town at which to offer my legendary services.

P.S.  In the course of my search I thought it prudent to visit the fortress in town and ask the Lady there for a pardon directly, since my skills had grown enough to survive even if the guards there turned out to be 'unreasonable'.  Unfortunately the Lady attacked me on sight and had to be 'self-defensed' along with the entire garrison.

I guess the moral of the story is, don't kick a dog unless you're willing to become a mass-murderer mass-'self-defenser'.

The story continues here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105470.msg3126537#msg3126537)

Edit: Went back and added some pictures of the origin of this slaughter. Edit2: Fixed grammar, phrasing, and structure errors.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Trapezohedron on March 24, 2012, 06:56:51 am
Nice story.

First things first, if you plan to kill dogs, use necromancy

/missingthepoint
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 24, 2012, 07:32:16 am
I thought, after all the guards wouldn't 'just know' that I'd killed a bunch of people

You kick a dog, all 500,000 peasants in that civ enable the hive mind and begin hunting you down.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Garath on March 24, 2012, 08:01:57 am
you attacked a member of the civ, now you're an enemy of the whole civ.Have fun depopulating the kingdom.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Flying Dice on March 24, 2012, 10:05:20 am
Have fun depopulating the kingdom.

That goes without saying and fits every possible situation.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Nega on March 24, 2012, 10:11:15 am
...I hope that he manages to destroy that civ, before going on to the next.  :P
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 04:16:50 pm
You kick a dog, all 500,000 peasants in that civ enable the hive mind and begin hunting you down.

I sort of feared that might be the case from the moment I killed that first guy.  Really the most shocking thing about all this is that I managed to decapitate that tanner in just one hit.  At 'skilled' level I had very little success in further severing of heads, as most of the strikes were difficult at least, and even when I managed a square hit it usually just resulted in a torn brain.  Even at legendary skill I have some difficulty decapitating on command.

Have fun depopulating the kingdom.

Hey! It's not like I wanted to kill everyone... Then again I could have gone about it a bit more tactfully, cause after a while I got bored and tried to fill the entire square with corpses by carefully positioning each victim 'unreasonable person' prior to murdering 'self-defensing' them:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As a side note, the fortress guards in this new version seem like complete pushovers compared to what I remember, you can take like a dozen with you to raid a bandit camp and they'll get completely destroyed in no time flat.  It was kind of weird how easy it was to kill all of them.  I don't think they even wear armor anymore...
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Supernerd on March 24, 2012, 04:26:24 pm
The only lesson I learned from this story is that slaughtering a whole town filled with civilians is a good way to train my skills.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 24, 2012, 04:37:27 pm
The only lesson I learned from this story is that slaughtering a whole town filled with civilians is a good way to train my skills.

Don't forget that guards are weak, they make crappy companions, and get you killed if you attack a dragon, plus that there is no other things to do in town... so what are you waiting for?
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 24, 2012, 04:37:54 pm


Apparently, highly applicable to DF
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Garath on March 24, 2012, 04:41:09 pm
The only lesson I learned from this story is that slaughtering a whole town filled with civilians is a good way to train my skills.

Don't forget that guards are weak, they make crappy companions, and get you killed if you attack a dragon, plus that there is no other things to do in town... so what are you waiting for?

KILL THEM ALL

and make them suffer.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 04:43:03 pm
The only lesson I learned from this story is that slaughtering a whole town filled with civilians is a good way to train my skills.

Some tips for you:
-Don't let them surround you, if you happen to get charged and knocked down they might get in some nasty opportunity hits while your speed is reduced.  I have the scars to prove it.
-If aiming your attacks becomes too tedious, just hold down the move key in your target's direction to spam un-aimed attacks, as a bonus this will train your wrestling, kicking, biting, and striking pretty fast too.
-A good time to attack is during the night, you can get simple, direct hits on all the sleeping townspeople and all of that brutal murdering doesn't even wake up any of the other people in the house.
-Be wary of rangers, or other crossbow-wielding civilians.  Some random profession people might carry slicing or boning knives, but they're not much of a threat because they have little or no skill with them.  Crossbows, on the other hand, are highly deadly no matter who is holding them.  I got lucky and dodged all of the bolts that were shot at me, around a dozen total since this town had very few hunters.
-If the town has a lot of animals, that might be a good place to start, as long as they're small.  The dogs, drakes and ducks (all of them have the same 'd' symbol, oddly) on the north side were no trouble, but I had a run in with some cows on the south side of this town and ending up fighting a serious battle.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Garath on March 24, 2012, 04:46:27 pm
Viva la revolution
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: acetech09 on March 24, 2012, 04:47:03 pm
There was nothing of use here either, but I had enough food for a week and enough drink for several months in the form of blood splatter coatings.

Although you can actually drink the spatter coatings, they don't restore your hunger or thirst.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 04:54:42 pm
There was nothing of use here either, but I had enough food for a week and enough drink for several months in the form of blood splatter coatings.

Although you can actually drink the spatter coatings, they don't restore your hunger or thirst.

I beg to differ, in past lives I've been traveling through freezing climates where all the rivers, and the water in my waterskin had all turned to ice.  In those times my only source of water, sometimes for weeks at a time, was blood splatter coatings on my clothes and weaponry.  Just be careful not to drink any vampire blood spatters, I think it'll turn you into one.  But yeah, in real life that wouldn't work so well.

Edit: One thing I've noticed with this latest adventurer and his 60 pages of spatter is that at times the blood spatter will become frozen as well, but I think it needs to be colder than for water, maybe because blood has a lower freezing point.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 24, 2012, 04:57:27 pm
You can drink blood to survive in real-life, as well... it's really salty, though...

Also, you can light a campfire, and "use" your ice on the campfire in order to melt it.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 05:02:53 pm
You can drink blood to survive in real-life, as well... it's really salty, though...

Also, you can light a campfire, and "use" your ice on the campfire in order to melt it.

Gah, I never knew that.  Is it 'u'se or 'i'nteract?  I've managed to melt ice in my waterskin in the past by surrounding myself with a bunch of campfires.  Try it in a freezing area and check the temperature with 'P', it will say "It is warm." if you're standing by enough of them, but it takes a really long time waiting for the ice to melt.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: DrPoo on March 24, 2012, 05:05:15 pm


Apparently, highly applicable to DF

I didnt read more than when i read the mangled face part, i want that guys adress, i need to do some PETA work..
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: acetech09 on March 24, 2012, 05:08:37 pm
There was nothing of use here either, but I had enough food for a week and enough drink for several months in the form of blood splatter coatings.

Although you can actually drink the spatter coatings, they don't restore your hunger or thirst.

I beg to differ, in past lives I've been traveling through freezing climates where all the rivers, and the water in my waterskin had all turned to ice.  In those times my only source of water, sometimes for weeks at a time, was blood splatter coatings on my clothes and weaponry.  Just be careful not to drink any vampire blood spatters, I think it'll turn you into one.  But yeah, in real life that wouldn't work so well.

Edit: One thing I've noticed with this latest adventurer and his 60 pages of spatter is that at times the blood spatter will become frozen as well, but I think it needs to be colder than for water, maybe because blood has a lower freezing point.

I just did some testing, and I found that some blood spatters quench your thirst, and some don't. Perhaps it depends on the size of the spatter.

You can drink blood to survive in real-life, as well... it's really salty, though...

Also, you can light a campfire, and "use" your ice on the campfire in order to melt it.

Gah, I never knew that.  Is it 'u'se or 'i'nteract?  I've managed to melt ice in my waterskin in the past by surrounding myself with a bunch of campfires.  Try it in a freezing area and check the temperature with 'P', it will say "It is warm." if you're standing by enough of them, but it takes a really long time waiting for the ice to melt.

Interact on your waterskin that contains the frozen ice while standing next to a campfire.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 05:29:18 pm
I just did some testing, and I found that some blood spatters quench your thirst, and some don't. Perhaps it depends on the size

Well its also possible that you were so thirsty you needed two drinks, and thus two spatters, there is supposed to be a color difference as you get thirstier and thirstier, but I think the second tier thirst color is the same as the first.  On the other hand there do seem to be smears, spatters, and coatings, probably sized in that order and it might be that bigger ones quench thirst more.

Side note, I have a wide variety of blood spatters on my tongue. Kind of funny to be drinking blood that's already in my mouth.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 24, 2012, 05:38:05 pm


Apparently, highly applicable to DF

I didnt read more than when i read the mangled face part, i want that guys adress, i need to do some PETA work..

"...Which only a fool would take to be true."

Didn't happen, no need to fret ;)
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: DrPoo on March 24, 2012, 05:46:04 pm


Apparently, highly applicable to DF

I didnt read more than when i read the mangled face part, i want that guys adress, i need to do some PETA work..

"...Which only a fool would take to be true."

Didn't happen, no need to fret ;)

As i said, i didnt read the rest of it, i abhor violence against dogs and partially cats, its a childhood trauma thing i am dealing with.. But ok :P
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 24, 2012, 05:50:26 pm
Well its also possible that you were so thirsty you needed two drinks, and thus two spatters, there is supposed to be a color difference as you get thirstier and thirstier, but I think the second tier thirst color is the same as the first.  On the other hand there do seem to be smears, spatters, and coatings, probably sized in that order and it might be that bigger ones quench thirst more.

Side note, I have a wide variety of blood spatters on my tongue. Kind of funny to be drinking blood that's already in my mouth.

Yeah, you can also do things like drink the water off your ear or other weird things.

Not to mention that if you get one of those mods that adds genitalia...

Anyway, thirst is dark blue in the first tier, and yellow in the emergency tier, but you can be thirsty enough to need two drinks without being yellow tier, yet.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Powder Miner on March 24, 2012, 06:33:01 pm
It's purple if you're going to diiiie soon.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 06:55:31 pm
Update:

So I've been at it for quite a while now and I still have not found anyone willing to forgive me for kicking that dog.  I guess it's just as well, because I've killed quite a few people in their sleep and I don't think anyone would buy an excuse like 'preemptive self defense' any more than they would believe I could accidentally decapitate someone.

My original goal as an adventurer was to achieve over a thousand notable kills and be seen as a hero in the eyes of every civilization in the world.  Well, I certainly had over a thousand kills:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
At this point I think I'm willing to lower the bar a bit, and settle for finishing off the inhabitants of this town, and any others that have become hostile, before going to look for work elsewhere.  In a way I suppose that this new goal is grander still than my old one.  I'll just have to leave 'murdered an entire civilization' off my resume.

My skills and attributes have progressed quite a bit since the fighting began:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sadly, some of the more awesome feats of swordsmanship still elude me.  For example as my skill has increased the likelihood of a slash to the lower body cutting the target in half seems to have actually decreased.  Maybe it has something to do with my using a bronze longsword, rather than iron, but I could hardly swap it out now that it has eight-hundred and forty-nine kills to its name (I guess that means I've killed over a hundred and fifty people with my bare hands?).

In other news, I've noticed that the area surrounding this town I've been fighting in has an oddly appropriate name:
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2586/thefieldofexecuting.png)
Maybe this means they're used to countless murders occurring?  My rampage certainly hasn't seemed to bother the townspeople much, I just passed back through the square by the markets, where I had created a veritable carpet of corpses, and found that the markets had been re-inhabited while I was away.  In fact many of the houses around town where I brutally murdered all of the tenants seem to now be occupied by both the corpses I left to rot and a number of new residents.  It's somewhat puzzling that they don't mind the mutilated corpses and blood stains covering all the floors, walls, and furniture.

All in all I've been killing for the better part of two day straight now, and there are still more townspeople showing up all over the place.  I'm not sure if I can kill everyone here, as it seems they pop up again as fast as I can slaughter them.  It's actually kind of a shame, this is the most populous and interesting town I've seen up 'till now, what with the humans, dwarfs, and goblins all living together in some kind of bizarre harmony.  There are also loads of shops including several weapon-smithies and armorers, although they only have copper and silver items available, so they're not really of any use.  I've searched several bowyer's shops for anything impressive, but have yet to see a single masterwork item.

Eh, guess they're not so interesting after all.  Back to work then; I think I see another couple of markets ahead, this time I'll try to lure them all onto the same tile and create a pile of corpses fifty feet high.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 24, 2012, 07:02:30 pm
In a way I suppose that this new goal is grander still than my old one.  I'll just have to leave 'murdered an entire civilization' off my resume.

Tough noogies, that's buggy, too.

All the non-historicals spring right back to life if you fast travel or sleep (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5106).

In fact, look at the names of the corpses - you just killed the exact same people over and over again.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 07:11:51 pm
In fact, look at the names of the corpses - you just killed the exact same people over and over again.

Haha.  Wow, wish you hadn't told me that, it would have been funny to notice for myself.  Hmm, maybe I need to make a change of plans?  I could just kill all of their leaders, then move on.  If all else fails I could try using DFhack to fill all the houses with obsidian. Or maybe the whole town?

Edit: Wait! Only if you sleep or fast travel?  This may still be do-able depending on what the exact effects of extended drowsiness are.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 24, 2012, 07:16:33 pm
In fact, look at the names of the corpses - you just killed the exact same people over and over again.

Haha.  Wow, wish you hadn't told me that, it would have been funny to notice for myself.  Hmm, maybe I need to make a change of plans?  I could just kill all of their leaders, then move on.  If all else fails I could try using DFhack to fill all the houses with obsidian. Or maybe the whole town?

1. Orbital bombardment
2. Obsidian SPEHSS carpet, perpetual darkness within the town.
3. Both
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 07:20:17 pm
1. Orbital bombardment
2. Obsidian SPEHSS carpet, perpetual darkness within the town.
3. Both

That list seems pretty promising, but I'm not sure how you could manage either of them without extensive modding/cheating.  Still worth looking into I guess.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 24, 2012, 07:37:59 pm
If all else fails I could try using DFhack to fill all the houses with obsidian. Or maybe the whole town?

That list seems pretty promising, but I'm not sure how you could manage either of them without extensive modding/cheating.  Still worth looking into I guess.

wut o-o
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 07:54:02 pm
It's not that I have a problem with modding or cheating, but rather the 'extensive' part.  As I said I'm not really sure how to do either of those things.  Maybe I could spawn magma and water in midair and get them to combine to form obsidian bombs?  I could make an obsidian tower from the ground up and expand it into a sunlight-blocking floor?  Anyway it would be nice to find a workaround that doesn't need to use DFhack, since summoning magma and water out of the void isn't really one of my character's abilities.  I think I might look into necromancy, maybe if I raise all their corpses after killing them they'll be forced to fight their past dead-selves and end up dieing again immediately.

Anyway, those cheating jerks deserve some sort of retribution.  They're completely immortal, no wonder all the corpses everywhere don't seem to faze them, and settling in "The Field of Executing" is clearly some kind of ironic dare.  Then again this is my sixth incarnation, and 'immortal' is right in my name, so maybe I shouldn't be one to talk.  I guess it's only fair everyone should be immortal, though it doesn't really make for a great story.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Kamamura on March 24, 2012, 07:55:00 pm
Hey, I liked your story, it reminds me those weird, dreamy westerns like "High Plains Drifter", or "U-Turn" where people do horrible things to each other for no apparent reason and something menacing always hangs in the air.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 24, 2012, 08:19:47 pm
You could do it in Fortress mode, but that's about it :I
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: RabblerouserGT on March 24, 2012, 08:27:55 pm
My favorite part is walking into the door and "accidentally" killing the guy on the other side.

Hilarious mental image of this guy just BLUNDERING into someone else's home, arm and leg kicked out, which accidentally slices someone's head off.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 24, 2012, 10:28:52 pm
You could do it in Fortress mode

You know, I was thinking about that...  It's pretty clear that the people of Lecbedur, "The Merged Empires", are all somehow immortal, even my adventurer, who walked among them in most of his incarnations.  Even more disturbing, here in this town of Knightedyelled there live Humans, Dwarfs, and Goblins, together in wooden houses, next to a fortress built entirely above the ground.  To top it all off, this Human-Dwarf-Goblin coalition seems to be on good terms with the Elves.

If you ask me there is something unnatural and very, very wrong with all of this.  Something that doesn't belong, that you wouldn't expect to see in the game that spawned such epic Dwarven tales as Boatmurdered, Headshoots, Syrupleaf, and Battledfailed, among others.  This, 'civilization', this kingdom of Lecbedur is nothing less than a grave insult to every Dwarf who ever died fighting a goblin ambush because the overseer forgot to assign weapons to his squad, to every Dwarf who ever concluded a mega-project by channeling a tile in the wrong order and falling a hundred z-levels to an unmarked grave, to every dwarf who ever lost three limbs yet went about his duties stoically right up until the fortress flooded, and to every dwarf who stayed 'quite content' despite losing 95% of the fort population in an unfortunate clown invasion because dammit that dining room is Legendary.

I can think of only one race with the right mix of courage, tenacity, ingenuity, alcoholism, and sheer unbridled madness to challenge this affront to the natural order of the world.  Ladies and gentlemen, let's get Dwarfy.

It's past time for a war council and undertakings of !!science!!  Here are the questions we must answer in advance of the war against Lecbedur:
-How close to a town can an embark be made?
-Can two fortress embarks overlap slightly?
-If embarks can't overlap, can structures formed on the map edges create a continuous wall between two of them?
-What is the quickest way to start a war with the humans in fortress mode?
-Can wars in fortress mode appreciably reduce a civilizations population?

On the drawing board:
-Create a fort near each town and hamlet to pump in water and magma to coat them in obsidian.
-Create a series of forts in a ring around each town and hamlet to wall them off completely.
-Use an adventurer to pump magma into the walled off towns and hamlets.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 24, 2012, 10:55:54 pm
Goblins often live in towns when they have lost a war to humans... or won one.  Some population exchange goes on when they conquer territories, and conquered civilians become part of the conquering culture.  Then, when a town/tower is controlled by another culture nearby, and they are at peace, some immigration/emmigration takes place. 

I had one town in a world a while ago with over 10,000 goblins in it, and only 500 humans, while goblins were the most populous sentient species in the region.  Those same goblins spread into other civs, as well, taking root in basically every major town in the south.

It helps that they don't eat, and don't die of old age and can reproduce infinitely, so even a small number over a long enough period of time can grow exponentially.  Longer worldgens will see the entire world covered in "human" and "elven" and "dwarven" and goblin civs, all populated by nothing but goblins that have been endoctrinated into different cultures.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Yoink on March 25, 2012, 12:37:59 am
Haha, a great read! :D That was very surreal... It really put me in mind of some normal, rational person being dumped unceremoniously into the bizarre world of DF, with its strange AI quirks, and wondering what the hell was going on.
Then, of course, we saw his slow change into the local mindset, with his 'self defence' ideas and the way he slowly makes a game out of the slaughter. :P So yeah, good job!
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Lovechild on March 25, 2012, 07:34:07 am
Quote
-How close to a town can an embark be made?
Towns take up as much space as a map tile, no matter how big they actually are. So you'll get closer to bigger towns.

Quote
-Can two fortress embarks overlap slightly?
Nope.

Quote
-If embarks can't overlap, can structures formed on the map edges create a continuous wall between two of them?
I think so, if you use raised bridges.

Quote
-What is the quickest way to start a war with the humans in fortress mode?
Seize all the goods from their trade caravans and then kill them.

Quote
-Can wars in fortress mode appreciably reduce a civilizations population?
Not by a lot. Historical figures might lead their squads.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 25, 2012, 11:09:51 am
Towns take up 17x17 local/embark tiles.  A region/map tile is 16x16 local tiles.  This means that towns always spill over into four different region tiles. 

Wars are easily started with humans by just killing the diplomat.  (You need a baron to get a diplomat, however.)

You can make a solid wall with raised bridges.

The game will not respect that wall in fast travel.  It will only matter in local travel.

Nothing moves by local travel unless you are moving by local travel, and nothing moves in local travel, except to completely randomly meander right now, since actual jobs and schedules have yet to be implemented (although they should be "soon").

You can, however, embark inside of a town, using one of the hack tools like "Just Embark" or "Embark Anywhere".  Note that the humans may be immediately hostile to your invading dwarves.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: RAKninja on March 25, 2012, 06:40:20 pm
My favorite part is walking into the door and "accidentally" killing the guy on the other side.

Hilarious mental image of this guy just BLUNDERING into someone else's home, arm and leg kicked out, which accidentally slices someone's head off.
actually happens a lot if playing as goblins.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Kamamura on March 26, 2012, 06:37:33 am
Anyway, DF is makes the transition from playing a hero to playing a monster unbelievably smooth. One moment, you are embarking on a heroic quest to get the land rid of a horrible dragon or a troll, and before you know it, you are slaughtering everyone in every city you pass through because some trivial misunderstanding about kicking a door and its owner open.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Broseph Stalin on March 26, 2012, 11:14:31 am
"The Field of Executing" Fitting.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 26, 2012, 01:20:08 pm
By the way, Zavador, you just have to keep in mind that if Fortress Mode is in "Alpha", then Adventure Mode is in pre-Proof-Of-Concept stages.  You can't walk 4 steps without hitting an "under construction" sign.  Most of the problems you run into are just things that aren't implemented yet.

For the bugs having to do with things like infinite clones of villagers, however, there is a "worst bug" poll you can vote in, and this is one of the bugs on it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105372.0). 
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: ObeseHelmet on March 26, 2012, 03:16:20 pm
-How close to a town can an embark be made?

With Just Embark (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=71007.0), which still works in the new version, you can actually embark entirely in this town. Not sure if this seems like crossing the line with modding to you.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Leafsnail on March 26, 2012, 05:52:40 pm
Is it possible to make someone a historical figure then kill them, or do you only become historical in Legends Mode?  I'm thinking like infecting them with Lycanthropy could do the trick.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 26, 2012, 07:20:42 pm
Is it possible to make someone a historical figure then kill them, or do you only become historical in Legends Mode?  I'm thinking like infecting them with Lycanthropy could do the trick.

Doesn't work that way - those characters are randomly generated in the same way that the inside walls of a tower are generated.  There is a seed that is stored to generate a town without actually having to save any data on what's in the town to save storage space.  The game then just stores changes to that data, like if you drop a spear on the ground or something, so it will just generate the town again from scratch, then add a spear on the ground.

The game doesn't do this for population pool characters, however.  Kill them, take them with you as companions, profess your undying love to them, doesn't matter, they'll be randomly generated again each time you walk into town, even if they're still following you at the time.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: ff2 on March 26, 2012, 08:47:38 pm
Does that mean I can have an army of clones?
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 26, 2012, 09:10:46 pm
Does that mean I can have an army of clones?

Yes.

In fact, you can hire a companion, fast travel one step, then step back, drop out of fast travel, and hire the same person.

I have four of the same person in my party right now after just testing that.

This is already a bug report as well.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: lorb on March 27, 2012, 07:16:47 am
In fact, you can hire a companion, fast travel one step, then step back, drop out of fast travel, and hire the same person.

Is the step required? Did you test just entering and leaving fast travel? (Can't test myself atm)
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Leafsnail on March 27, 2012, 10:53:45 am
I swear it's possible to deplete a castle of its soldiers, though?  Or are soldiers in keeps actually historical?
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 27, 2012, 10:56:07 am
Is the step required? Did you test just entering and leaving fast travel? (Can't test myself atm)

Merely entering fast travel does not offload the map.

You can enter fast travel, and then exit fast travel in the exact same position and situation as when you entered it.

I swear it's possible to deplete a castle of its soldiers, though?  Or are soldiers in keeps actually historical?

They can be historical, especially if they are not the primary race of their civ, or are legendary in anything, or the like. 

However, soldiers can also be generic - and these are typically the ones that have generic equipment (no trophies from kills, no quality on their equipment, etc.) and have no history behind them when you ask about their profession.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Zavador on March 28, 2012, 01:19:43 am
Adventure Mode is in pre-Proof-Of-Concept stages.  You can't walk 4 steps without hitting an "under construction" sign.  Most of the problems you run into are just things that aren't implemented yet.

Naturally I don't hold any of the weirdness that crops up in adventure mode against it (ditto for fortress mode).  It's been said before, and I agree, that all of the absurdity and madness give DF a lot of charm.  I had actually played a lot of DF2010 fortress mode and become accustomed to the game's quirks.  However, I only messed with adventure mode a little before this release, and all I had done was make generic adventurers and run the prescribed quests until I got an unlucky round and wound up dead or maimed.  So, the only thing that really threw me for a loop in all this was hearing that non-historical NPCs just keep re-genning with the town (mostly since I'd heard of adventurers depopulating the world and sending it into the twilight era before).

Oh, and also walking through the door and insta-decapitating that tanner was hilariously surprising.  My brother and I had a laugh trying to come up with a plausible in-character explanation for that little event.  I would have done the whole post from the adventurer's point of view, but for the fact that we never really thought of a good one.  As a result the whole thing turned out kind of half-in and half-out of character, with my ignorance as the player somewhat embellished.  Truth told, I was only going over to that first house to check if the town was hostile to me after attacking that dog, and I kind of expected they would be after having to confirm my attack (although you have to confirm attacks against neutral wildlife as well).  Everything that followed was me acting as I thought my rational adventurer might.

Anyway, it only takes a little meta-thinking to form expectations about how the game will respond to most actions, and there isn't a whole lot of adventure mode content yet, so it can be pretty boring to play things the way you're expected to.  However, as I've found now, there's some real fun to be had in adventure mode, just follow these steps:
1. Forget meta-thinking, get in character and do something the game isn't designed to handle yet.
2. Try to play it out like a rational person would.
3. Laugh as the madness rises.
4. Post it on the internet for others to enjoy.

Of course, things won't always be this way, since Toady's stated(?) goal is almost the antithesis of this method of play.  In the final release, players will enter the game with meta-expectations borrowed from other games/past experiences, only to have them exceeded and shattered by the extreme nuance and detail put into the world and its ability to realistically handle your character's actions.  It's an admirable goal, I think, but the game is fun either way.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: NW_Kohaku on March 28, 2012, 11:43:09 am
I would have done the whole post from the adventurer's point of view, but for the fact that we never really thought of a good one.  As a result the whole thing turned out kind of half-in and half-out of character, with my ignorance as the player somewhat embellished.  Truth told, I was only going over to that first house to check if the town was hostile to me after attacking that dog, and I kind of expected they would be after having to confirm my attack (although you have to confirm attacks against neutral wildlife as well).  Everything that followed was me acting as I thought my rational adventurer might.

I kind of think of one episode of The Slayers (anime) that had Zelgado trying to knock some bandits unconscious.  He rushed past the bandits, who stopped and keeled over.  Zelgado then said, in the style of old samurai movies, "Don't worry, I only used the back of the blade."  Then the bandits all start bleeding profusely and die, Zelgado looks down and says, "Oh, whoops! This is a two-sided blade!"  He forgot that it was a Western-style fantasy.

Part of the problem is that adventurers have obscene monkey-grip action, where they can hold and skillfully wield infinite objects in one hand, and as such, never drop things, just for convenience.  So, I walk around with a crossbow and a knife (for butchering) in one hand, a shield in the other.  Sure, it's an abuse of a bug, but it's too much of a hassle to put my crossbow away, pull out a knife, skin the target, put the knife back, take my crossbow back out. 

Maybe your adventurer just forgot he had a sword in his hand while opening the door with that sword, and accidentally swung it into the neck of the guy who was just about to walk to the door on the other side?
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: JackOSpades on April 11, 2012, 03:58:54 pm
Anyway, DF is makes the transition from playing a hero to playing a monster unbelievably smooth. One moment, you are embarking on a heroic quest to get the land rid of a horrible dragon or a troll, and before you know it, you are slaughtering everyone in every city you pass through because some trivial misunderstanding about kicking a door and its owner open.

Hey one civilization's "Hero" is anther's Blood thirsty monster bent on genocide and remember that it's the victors that make the history books.
Title: Re: So, I wanted to apologize for kicking your dog...
Post by: Qmarx on April 12, 2012, 08:36:18 pm
I swear it's possible to deplete a castle of its soldiers, though?  Or are soldiers in keeps actually historical?

I tried with a necromancer.

The castle had 18 inhabitants, I reanimated over twenty five different dudes