Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XXXIV. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, your goal is onefold: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperienced challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you can not always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.I know it's clarified later, but this sentence just stood out to me as being awkward. It feels like it's saying, at first glance, "always trust the ICs, but not always". I feel like it could be a little clearer to avoid a double-take. Although, I can't think of a better way to phrase it right now.
I feel guilty about chopping up and essentially plagiarizing most of LNCP's OP from way back when, but I think my version is slightly, ever so slightly, clearer, and that's important for BMs.
Changing your avatar to match the game? That's dedication.The greatest sacrifice ever, my ass.
Can I get a spoil spec on this?
I know it's clarified later, but this sentence just stood out to me as being awkward. It feels like it's saying, at first glance, "always trust the ICs, but not always". I feel like it could be a little clearer to avoid a double-take. Although, I can't think of a better way to phrase it right now.
Maybe something like:Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XXXIV. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, your goal is onefold: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperienced challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you can not always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.I know it's clarified later, but this sentence just stood out to me as being awkward. It feels like it's saying, at first glance, "always trust the ICs, but not always". I feel like it could be a little clearer to avoid a double-take. Although, I can't think of a better way to phrase it right now.
You can always trust direct IC advice to be genuine; they will never lie to you about aspects of mafia or methods of playing better simply to win. There is a chance they will be scum, however, in which case they will of course lie about more specific details where advantageous.
As an example, an IC would never say "Rolefishing isn't a scumtell" simply to cover their rolefishing. They might very well say "I wasn't rolefishing, I was just curious about his response" to cover their rolefishing, however.
In, because Jack AT (and quite a few others) said I'm one of the worst mafia players they've ever seen.No.
At least he's willing to admit his mistakes and learn. 8)
Theoldus: How many games of mafia have you played before?This is my first game ever!
FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?
BMC: What do you think you most need to improve on in mafia games?Probably sticking my vote with good evidence instead of someone who strikes me as scummy for no reason.
blackmagechill: Who are your initial guesses as potential scum? Why?Deathsword stuck out to me because he seems to have fewer questions, and what looks like less suspicions.
Of course, your statement could also be a lie should you be mafia (at least the one where you claim you are town), but I'm not going to go on this due to no evidence at all. At least not for now.FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?I would rather play town like I am in this game, because I can concentrate on learning to scumhunt rather than trying to hide.
Deathsword: What do you find to be the most suspicious in D1? Why?I am unsure wheter or not I understand the question, but assuming it's behaviour (spelling?) you are referring to, fallacies would be somewhat suspicious, especially ones where the accused can't defend himself (assuming him, not going to do all that he/she/it stuff) without looking somewhat guilty.
blackmagechill: Who are your initial guesses as potential scum? Why?Deathsword stuck out to me because he seems to have fewer questions, and what looks like less suspicions.
All I'm saying is, and, granted this is RVS which really doesn't matter, you weren't throwing around as many questions as everyone else, and it seemed like you had relaxed suspicions. Now, maybe it's just me, but if someone isn't suspicious in a game of mafia, then that person probably knows more than everyone else.Let's assume that I am scum for a moment, wouldn't I try to act non-supiciously? Wouldn't I have asked more question in order to pass as town, throwing random guesses at nearly everyone? From what I know, a scum player would try as hard as they could to look like town, perhaps a bit too hard?
I meant suspicious of other people, that was minor screw-up in phrasing on my part. If you were town, you wouldn't have much to fear in questioning, now would you? After all, you wouldn't have anything to hide, and thus wouldn't have any reason to fear. This is beginner's mafia. The scum are beginners too, and, probably aren't experienced enough in RVS to try too hard to appear as town. It'd be rare to find a scum player working that hard to look town in beginner's.
If you were town, you wouldn't have much to fear in questioning, now would you? After all, you wouldn't have anything to hide, and thus wouldn't have any reason to fear.
Deathsword: What do you find to be the most suspicious in D1? Why?I am unsure wheter or not I understand the question, but assuming it's behaviour (spelling?) you are referring to, fallacies would be somewhat suspicious,especially ones where the accused can't defend himself (assuming him, not going to do all that he/she/it stuff) without looking somewhat guilty.
I'm sorry I'm not well schooled on my fallacies. Maybe I'll do some research when I become an internet politician. Which particular fallacy would you be referring to here (Strawman is what it looks like I guess)? I'm trying to say that your fears would be unfounded if you were town.I'm referring to Burden of Guilt
You might not have any way to prove my claim, sure, but my claim isn't even really a claim. It's just suspicion and the fact that "hey, that kind of seems weird that you would do that". I haven't voted or even accused you (despite what it might've looked like) I've just expressed a bit of suspicion, Deathsword.
blackmagechill: Who are your initial guesses as potential scum? Why?Deathsword stuck out to me because he seems to have fewer questions, and what looks like less suspicions.
All I'm saying is, and, granted this is RVS which really doesn't matter, you weren't throwing around as many questions as everyone else, and it seemed like you had relaxed suspicions. Now, maybe it's just me, but if someone isn't suspicious in a game of mafia, then that person probably knows more than everyone else.
RVS Time!What, no vote during the random vote stage? What's the point of that question to TolyK?
TolyK: Any ideas as to who would be scum?
Theoldus: How many games of mafia have you played before?
borno: Can you beat your post record from BYOP mafia this time?
Deathsword stuck out to me because he seems to have fewer questions, and what looks like less suspicions.
All I'm saying is, and, granted this is RVS which really doesn't matter, you weren't throwing around as many questions as everyone else, and it seemed like you had relaxed suspicions. Now, maybe it's just me, but if someone isn't suspicious in a game of mafia, then that person probably knows more than everyone else.Does anyone have any suspicions at this point?
BMC: What do you think you most need to improve on in mafia games?Odd that you've got the best RVS questions so far. You ask one player what his primary playing weakness is, one player what an aspect of their preferred playstyle is, and one what they feel is most important to either players or scum players in general. Though, you should probably bold to catch people's attention.
FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?
IronyOwl: What is the most important thing for a mafia player to remember?
So, RVS, here I go...You also look like you're just going through the motions (and should probably bold, possibly vote). This is a good question, but why is it all alone?
Chaos Armor: Since you weren't mentioned by those above, what kind of role do you enjoy most?
Of course, your statement could also be a lie should you be mafia (at least the one where you claim you are town), but I'm not going to go on this due to no evidence at all. At least not for now.This looks pretty useless. You point out the obvious, claim you're not going to push him over it because there's nothing there, then imply you might push him over it later. Why mention it at all just so you can glare at him uselessly and imply he'll have to answer for it later? Are you trying to pressure him, mentioning things you find suspicious, or something else?
I went with him because he wasn't questioned by you, in fact I could say it's suspicious you only mentioned 3 players. I don't expect this to be a compelling argument, but it's still what I am going to say.This is even worse, being both weaker and hypocritical. What's so suspicious about only mentioning 3 players, and why is it both not a compelling argument but something you're going to say? And why, if only mentioning 3 players is suspicious, did you only mention one? Are you intentionally trying to draw suspicion to yourself or something?
Let's assume that I am scum for a moment, wouldn't I try to act non-supiciously? Wouldn't I have asked more question in order to pass as town, throwing random guesses at nearly everyone? From what I know, a scum player would try as hard as they could to look like town, perhaps a bit too hard?Well then clearly you're town. Except then scum would know that and do exactly this to look town. Hm.
What if my single question was a result of paranoia, of fear that someone might use such questions against me, not unlike you are doing now?Then you're playing like shit and going to be lynched anyway.
blackmagechill: Who are your initial guesses as potential scum? Why?What's the point of these questions? Two of them are based on something that probably hasn't had enough time to meaningfully happen yet, one's very vague and based on a prior game.
Deathsword: What do you find to be the most suspicious in D1? Why?
Shakerag: What do you think the greatest town mistake in BMXXXIII was? Why?
Theodolus, IronyOwl, and Chaos Armor: All three of you are online, but none of you have even made an opening post for the RVS yet. Have you not noticed that the game has started, or are you trying to sit back and sideline, letting newtownies target each other instead of you?I'm doing other things, of course.
So, RVS, here I go...
Chaos Armor: Since you weren't mentioned by those above, what kind of role do you enjoy most?
Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.
Theodolus, IronyOwl, and Chaos Armor: All three of you are online, but none of you have even made an opening post for the RVS yet. Have you not noticed that the game has started, or are you trying to sit back and sideline, letting newtownies target each other instead of you?
borno: Can you beat your post record from BYOP mafia this time?Yes. I've got one post to go before I beat it.
borno: If you were a doctor who would you save? The cleanest looking player or the scummiest looking player?By cleanest, I assume you mean 'Least scummy.'
Flying Dice:blackmagechill: Who are your initial guesses as potential scum? Why?What's the point of these questions? Two of them are based on something that probably hasn't had enough time to meaningfully happen yet, one's very vague and based on a prior game.
Deathsword: What do you find to be the most suspicious in D1? Why?
Shakerag: What do you think the greatest town mistake in BMXXXIII was? Why?
Flying Dice:
Theodolus, IronyOwl, and Chaos Armor: All three of you are online, but none of you have even made an opening post for the RVS yet. Have you not noticed that the game has started, or are you trying to sit back and sideline, letting newtownies target each other instead of you?
I've noticed and have been compiling my post but I've also been taking care of important business on The Last Knights (MMORTS).
Theodolus, IronyOwl, and Chaos Armor: All three of you are online, but none of you have even made an opening post for the RVS yet. Have you not noticed that the game has started, or are you trying to sit back and sideline, letting newtownies target each other instead of you?I'm doing other things, of course.
Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.
@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.
So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.
Theodolus:BMC: What do you think you most need to improve on in mafia games?Odd that you've got the best RVS questions so far. You ask one player what his primary playing weakness is, one player what an aspect of their preferred playstyle is, and one what they feel is most important to either players or scum players in general. Though, you should probably bold to catch people's attention.
FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?
IronyOwl: What is the most important thing for a mafia player to remember?
So, where'd you come up with these questions, having never played before?
Theodolus, IronyOwl, and Chaos Armor: All three of you are online, but none of you have even made an opening post for the RVS yet. Have you not noticed that the game has started, or are you trying to sit back and sideline, letting newtownies target each other instead of you?
I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.Townies are not supposed to care all too much about what might look townie and what might not; They're supposed to be more concerned about actively scum hunting.
Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.Why, then did you vote Deathsword over a FoS? It would of been fine to vote for him earlier as an RVS vote, when you you had 'Suspicions' over what he was saying. But then when he FoS's you you suddenly vote for him.
@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.
Borno: Assume you were the godfather and another scum was being fingered. Would you try to protect him by casting suspicion elsewhere or would you Bus him to gain credibility?In most cases I would start attacking someone else, to take the heat off of him. It would help is the cop is still alive (If there is a cop.)
FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?I would rather play town like I am in this game, because I can concentrate on learning to scumhunt rather than trying to hide.
You... you do realize that stating that I'm town isn't a roleclaim, correct? If I had said something like "I'm sure glad I'm the cop", that would have been a roleclaim (as well as being bloody stupid); I know that I am town, but noboby has proof either way, just as it is for every other townie. Saying "You said you are town. Therefore you are scum!" is not good reasoning, and furthermore, it incites WIFOM. Why are you trying to spread confusion?FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?I would rather play town like I am in this game, because I can concentrate on learning to scumhunt rather than trying to hide.
I have to say FlyingDice that re-reading through the posts so far, yours comes across as rather suspicious. Roleclaiming so early on? I wasn't asking what you were just what you would prefer to play in general. Granted you gave a good argument for your answer, but then went on to hand out more info than was asked for. Suspicious, when said info did nothing but claim innocence when I didn't even FoS you. So let's pursue this then. Why did you feel it was necessary to claim townie at that point?
So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.Starting your RVS with a single question rather than multiple ones is hardly abnormal, looking back over past games. It mostly falls to personal preference; do you want to trawl for responses or focus your initial pressure on one person? Not particularly suspicious, but I suppose it could be enough to start investigating. Fair enough.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.
2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.I will agree that that was a load of it, and seemed like he was trying to throw up a smokescreen.
I'm sorry I'm not well schooled on my fallacies. Maybe I'll do some research when I become an internet politician. Which particular fallacy would you be referring to here (Strawman is what it looks like I guess)? I'm trying to say that your fears would be unfounded if you were town.I'm referring to Burden of Guilt
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
Deathsword:All I'm saying is, and, granted this is RVS which really doesn't matter, you weren't throwing around as many questions as everyone else, and it seemed like you had relaxed suspicions. Now, maybe it's just me, but if someone isn't suspicious in a game of mafia, then that person probably knows more than everyone else.Let's assume that I am scum for a moment, wouldn't I try to act non-supiciously? Wouldn't I have asked more question in order to pass as town, throwing random guesses at nearly everyone? From what I know, a scum player would try as hard as they could to look like town, perhaps a bit too hard?
What if my single question was a result of paranoia, of fear that someone might use such questions against me, not unlike you are doing now?
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.You're freaking out about people being suspicious of you as well. Why?
You... you do realize that stating that I'm town isn't a roleclaim, correct? If I had said something like "I'm sure glad I'm the cop", that would have been a roleclaim (as well as being bloody stupid); I know that I am town, but noboby has proof either way, just as it is for every other townie. Saying "You said you are town. Therefore you are scum!" is not good reasoning, and furthermore, it incites WIFOM. Why are you trying to spread confusion?
Deathsword:If it seemed like I brought the Too Townie up, I apologize, but in my exchange with blackmagechill I actually drew attention to myself, so why I'd be nervous about drawing it to me if said attention was already there in the first place?
Deathsword:
You're bringing up the Too Townie fallacy to excuse you looking scummy? And why the hell are you worried about people being suspicious of you, if you're town? Deathsword, I'm not positive, but for now you've managed to hit the top of my list of suspicions. Why are you so nervous about attention being on you?
In my defence, considering the points IronyOwl brought up:Um. You haven't actually explained what your results were, though. What is it you're suspicious of?
I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.
When blackmagechill decided to declare himself supicious of my post, I decided to see what I could get out of him by making some wild (by my standards, at least) assumptions.
Going to FoS blackmagechill due to what I said above.
So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.This would probably be better off in accusation form, as that's better suited to refining your suspicions. Right now it seems like you're trying to just suggest to the rest of us that maybe Deathsword and Chaos Armor is the scumteam, which is problematic for two reasons. One, it doesn't really help you gain new information; other than trying to sway others to lynching Deathsword and then Chaos Armor, it doesn't really have any upside versus taking these accusations to him/them directly. Two, it's a pretty weak connection so far, so it's not really a good lynch argument in the first place.
6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.Voting someone for something someone else is doing is also fairly dangerous, as it tends to jump to conclusions. Deathsword doesn't need to be scum for Chaos Armor to be scum or act scummily.
Furthermore, blackmagechill seems very defensive, even somwhat angry, when questioned by people other than me, so, for that, he gets my vote.This would probably be better off in accusation form. As it stands, it's not really doing anything; and what's more, because he's the only one you're questioning, that means you're not doing anything at all at this point. You need to keep doing things.
Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.
@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.
So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.
So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.
2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
4. In that same post he said that if he was scum he would try to look town instead of looking like scum, which is circular logic (I can't be scum because scum are supposed to look like town, so I don't look like town, and am therefore scum).
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.
6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.
blackmagechill:Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?
Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?
I've got a question coming up based on this answer.
1. I'm looking at Chaos Armor as the most scummy person right now.
2. Next, this is tough. But I'd have to say blackmagechill so far. At least, he seems somewhat overly defensive. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword. But this was an extremely hard choice.
Chaos Armor:
If you were scum, would you sit on the sideline as you are doing now, or try to turn townie on townie?
Fiskav
You've been rather quiet. So you've been on long enough to answer one question, but other than that couldn't be bothered to come up with at least one question for anyone. I understand that RVS is a bit chaotic and it's difficult to learn anything, but it's impossible to win without saying anything. So what's been keeping you so preoccupied that you can't begin scumhunting or at least participating in the RVS? Are you trying to keep from drawing attention to yourself? Scared you might slip up and give a scumtell on D1?
I'm trying my best to make sense of all this. Which, is beginning to come off rather well now.Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?
I've got a question coming up based on this answer.
1. I'm looking at Chaos Armor as the most scummy person right now.
2. Next, this is tough. But I'd have to say blackmagechill so far. At least, he seems somewhat overly defensive. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword. But this was an extremely hard choice.
Chaos Armor:
If you were scum, would you sit on the sideline as you are doing now, or try to turn townie on townie?
BMC:I wasn't voting over the FoS, I was voting him because his super best friend/ possibly scum pal voted for me after reading all that pressure. Maybe to apply pressure to me, or at least move me off of the flailing mafiat.
Why, then did you vote Deathsword over a FoS? It would of been fine to vote for him earlier as an RVS vote, when you you had 'Suspicions' over what he was saying. But then when he FoS's you you suddenly vote for him.
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?I've been suspicious since he freaked out over the one question thing. One question is a read because it shows you have laxed suspicions. Using hypocritical statements to defend your actions is a bigger one. And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.
Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?
I've got a question coming up based on this answer.
1. I'm looking at Chaos Armor as the most scummy person right now.
2. Next, this is tough. But I'd have to say blackmagechill so far. At least, he seems somewhat overly defensive. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword. But this was an extremely hard choice.
Chaos Armor:
If you were scum, would you sit on the sideline as you are doing now, or try to turn townie on townie?
Fiskav
You've been rather quiet. So you've been on long enough to answer one question, but other than that couldn't be bothered to come up with at least one question for anyone. I understand that RVS is a bit chaotic and it's difficult to learn anything, but it's impossible to win without saying anything. So what's been keeping you so preoccupied that you can't begin scumhunting or at least participating in the RVS? Are you trying to keep from drawing attention to yourself? Scared you might slip up and give a scumtell on D1?
I'm trying my best to make sense of all this. Which, is beginning to come off rather well now.Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?
I've got a question coming up based on this answer.
1. I'm looking at Chaos Armor as the most scummy person right now.
2. Next, this is tough. But I'd have to say blackmagechill so far. At least, he seems somewhat overly defensive. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword. But this was an extremely hard choice.
Chaos Armor:
If you were scum, would you sit on the sideline as you are doing now, or try to turn townie on townie?
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword. But this was an extremely hard choice.
I wasn't voting over the FoS, I was voting him because his super best friend/ possibly scum pal voted for me after reading all that pressure. Maybe to apply pressure to me, or at least move me off of the flailing mafiat.If this is true, why are you voting the guy who's the recipient of what could only be a scum action instead of the guy actually performing the scum action? Do you not consider the odds of Chaos Armor being scum to be higher than Deathsword being scum, even though it's Chaos Armor's actions that have sealed your case?
And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.Is it? What makes you so certain this is a deliberate buddytap followed by a deliberate chainsaw, as opposed to a coincidence followed by legitimate pressure?
On my part, I mean. I thought I'd gotten rid of all of the other crap in the post. My bad.If it's unclear, just repost it. Better to double post than to have your stuff be indecipherable.
IronyOwl: I'd rather not share anything that I got from that exchange right now.Alright then.
Deathsword:Smells more like a newtell over a scumtell to me here, IMO.
You're bringing up the Too Townie fallacy to excuse you looking scummy? And why the hell are you worried about people being suspicious of you, if you're town? Deathsword, I'm not positive, but for now you've managed to hit the top of my list of suspicions. Why are you so nervous about attention being on you?
Theodolus@96: What exactly is the point of your question to Chaos Armor?
borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy. What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player? What would you do then?Erm, I suppose you mean this hypothetically?
Whether I am being hypocritical or not is not the answer I am trying to find out. What I am trying to determine is who the scum are. Chaos, I am becoming more confident that it is not you, simply due to your offensive nature that makes it seem like you are aiming for a town victory.
Chaos, I am becoming more confident that it is not you, simply due to your offensive nature that makes it seem like you are aiming for a town victory.
you are aiming for a town victory.[/u]Why wouldn't he be aiming for a town victory? This is probably the biggest slip I've ever seen. Fiskav, that was pretty deadly mistake.
Chaos, I am becoming more confident that it is not you, simply due to your offensive nature that makes it seem like you are aiming for a town victory.you are aiming for a town victory.[/u]Why wouldn't he be aiming for a town victory? This is probably the biggest slip I've ever seen. Fiskav, that was pretty deadly mistake.
Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.
So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.
I'll start with the why: I wasn't completely sure and I certainly wasn't confident enough about what I though to share with others, especially since it carried the risk of making me look stupid and even making my situation worse. So yes, it was partially out of fear and I admit that.No good. If you don't try, you're not going to get better, and if you don't want to say it out loud, you probably need to get better.
Now, what I did get from that: He seemed to misunderstand (intentionally or not) most of my statements. If it was because they were confusing for any reason, I apologize.And did you bring up that he's misunderstanding your statements and try to establish why?
However, he decided to FoS and later vote me because I "felt wierd". Now, this is (or was) RVS, thus voting to pressure is normal. However, when questioned himself he was clearly defensive, even angry, and kept re-stating the same things, mostly how I "felt wierd". This has led me to belive there is something off here and thus I hereby clearly and fully accuse him of being scum due to behaviour I belive to be that of scum.Problem: That's where your questioning stopped. You're not, as far as I can tell, gathering any new data on him, which seems to mean you're absolutely certain of his alignment. Does the information you have so far make you 100% certain, or is there still room for error? (Hint: If he made that serious a mistake, there's always room for error; if scum can dead out themselves, townies can damn well incriminate themselves fairly well).
My question to fiskav still stands, I'd like to know why.
I have no clue who the scum is. As a townie, I'm trying my best to find out who is scum, which is proving to be very difficult.This is probably related to the fact that you're not asking very many questions. Surely there's someone and/or something you're curious about, and would like to hear explanations from and/or about?
Unvote Chaos Armor due to lack of evidence. I really have no clue who is the scummiest person now. Really, none. But I'm just going to say right now that since the scum already know who is and who isn't a townie, for the uninformed townies to know, I'm a townie.Publicly declaring yourself town is scummy and useless. It's not going to convince anyone, and it may very well convince some people that you're panicking scum. It's like if you're looking around for a thief, and someone suddenly blurts out that they're not a thief or anything. Pretty much your first thought is that they're a nervous thief.
Whether I am being hypocritical or not is not the answer I am trying to find out. What I am trying to determine is who the scum are. Chaos, I am becoming more confident that it is not you, simply due to your offensive nature that makes it seem like you are aiming for a town victory.I doubt he cares whether you want to know if you're being hypocritical, and I don't think deflecting the question is going to fix that.
Why wouldn't he be aiming for a town victory? This is probably the biggest slip I've ever seen. Fiskav, that was pretty deadly mistake.Because he's scum? Why don't you explain more thoroughly why this could only be something scum would say.
My bad if I read it wrong, but slips could be pretty common at this level. I haven't read many BM games. Fiskav has looked pretty scummy the whole way through, as outline by Irony and Theoldus.Then why didn't you mention those reasons and that you were lifting them off me and Theodolus, instead of not mentioning them and going for something completely different? Was there some reason you didn't think bringing them up was necessary or a good idea? You do want him lynched and think he's scum, right, so why wouldn't you explain why to everyone else?
For those who will ask (if anyone) my suspicion list reads like thisIf the answer's sitting right there, we hardly need you to point it out to us, now do we?
1.Deathsword- reread the whole first page of play
2.ChaosArmor-reread the second and thirdish pages of play
3.Fiskav-Irony's and Theoldus' points, and what looks like a pretty huge slip
4.Flying Dice- trying to cover for Fiskav after that, although his vote for me and the way I look suspicious is pretty well foundedBetter, but a more thorough explanation would be nice.
I forgot to mention to appear less defensive. I looked like it in questioning which raised some eyebrows, and it seems to me that the best defense is to either not have one because you don't need it unless you're scum, or to redirect to someone else, which also sort of looks like a scum tell.The best defense is to explain what you're doing and move on. Ignoring accusations makes it look like you don't have any defense and are just hoping it'll go away. Trying to deflect suspicions onto someone else makes it look like you don't have any defense and are hoping you can train attention onto someone else for you. Spending an inordinate amount of time defending yourself while doing nothing else makes it look like you're very concerned about your own survival but apathetic about actually finding scum.
PfP so just a few questions I wanted to get out there.
ChaosArmor
As a town member what is the most important thing you could be doing?
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?I've been suspicious since he freaked out over the one question thing. One question is a read because it shows you have laxed suspicions. Using hypocritical statements to defend your actions is a bigger one. And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.
If you guys lynch me, remember my hunches and suspicions. Seriously, I think I might be onto something somewhere.
borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy. What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player? What would you do then?Erm, I suppose you mean this hypothetically?
I guess I wouldn't be confident in defending against an IC, but I guess I could handle an aggressive player. I see you are referring to my post. Why are you jumping to conclusions that I am in a scumteam with deathsword? I thought that was a bad thing to do so early in the game.
Huh? I'm confused. I assumed that you were talking about deathsword in that post. Oops. By the way, what question are you referring to?borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy. What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player? What would you do then?Erm, I suppose you mean this hypothetically?
I guess I wouldn't be confident in defending against an IC, but I guess I could handle an aggressive player. I see you are referring to my post. Why are you jumping to conclusions that I am in a scumteam with deathsword? I thought that was a bad thing to do so early in the game.
Where did I imply anything about you and DS? I was just expanding on the question you were already asked. That feels a bit panicky, borno.
borno:Well, I don't know what to say that hasn't already been said. But also because I don't really have time for long posts. Since its the weekends now, I'll probably be able to add more content to my posts.
I haven't seen you post any questions since page 6. Any reason why you are actively lurking?
Because he's scum? Why don't you explain more thoroughly why this could only be something scum would say.Because... I was posting that really late I guess. I feel really stupid, but it was very late, and, well, you know what lack of sleep does to people.
Then why didn't you mention those reasons and that you were lifting them off me and Theodolus, instead of not mentioning them and going for something completely different? Was there some reason you didn't think bringing them up was necessary or a good idea? You do want him lynched and think he's scum, right, so why wouldn't you explain why to everyone else?The thought didn't cross my mind actually. Duly noted.
If the answer's sitting right there, we hardly need you to point it out to us, now do we?Right.
This also means that if people don't already agree with you, reading a few pages is not going to magically change their mind. If you want to convince people, you have to specifically convince people, not just gesture in a direction and claim the evidence is obvious.
In all cases, this brings up the issue of why, if these are so suspicious, you haven't gone into them yourself. You have/are going after Fiskav for one of the reasons you've mentioned, but otherwise you either haven't bothered to actually hunt any of these people (this is the first time you've mentioned any suspicion at Flying Dice at all) or have given up on them already (been a while since you've questioned Deathsword).I went into the whole death sword thing, but I wasn't actively pursuing it (and rightfully so, I probably would've said something that would've decredited my suspicions).
If you can't be bothered to hunt them for this, why would we?
The best defense is to explain what you're doing and move on. Ignoring accusations makes it look like you don't have any defense and are just hoping it'll go away. Trying to deflect suspicions onto someone else makes it look like you don't have any defense and are hoping you can train attention onto someone else for you. Spending an inordinate amount of time defending yourself while doing nothing else makes it look like you're very concerned about your own survival but apathetic about actually finding scum.Right. Don't deflect suspicions, just explain the way you're doing things that would look scummy.
Your defensiveness came from a combination of the second (trying to deflect attention) and looking like you were nervous in your responses. But then, you knew about that because of Deathsword's fallacy crap, right? Same basic idea.
Also, I hope not summarily lynching you for not answering my questions is what's giving you the idea that ignoring them works. In a real game you'd probably be in a noose already for that; I've been letting them slide because you're new and you seem to be at least understanding the "this is a bad idea" part of them, but in an actual game I'd want to hear your reasoning at the time even if you admitted that they were poor suspicions and had moved on.I feel like I'm already pretty well into the noose.
BornoOops, sorry. I forgot about it overnight, and I didn't see any updates on the thread. Here is a group of questions:
What happened to the post you were planning on putting up? You've been pretty inactive this entire game and then the one time you promise to put up some content you fail to deliver. Gotta say that you're quickly moving up in my suspicions list. Care to try to explain away your scummy behavior this time?
Flying Dice:
Who's second on your list of suspicions?
In my defence, considering the points IronyOwl brought up:Clarify, please? BMC's response(s) were scummy, but your initial reasoning seems unclear to me, apart from "poke and see what falls out".
I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.
When blackmagechill decided to declare himself supicious of my post, I decided to see what I could get out of him by making some wild (by my standards, at least) assumptions.
Going to FoS blackmagechill due to what I said above.
blackmagechill:Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?
EBWOP:
I forgot to put blackmagechill's name in red.
blackmagechill:Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.
@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.
So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.
2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
4. In that same post he said that if he was scum he would try to look town instead of looking like scum, which is circular logic (I can't be scum because scum are supposed to look like town, so I don't look like town, and am therefore scum).
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.
6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.
It's called a pressure vote.
I forgot to highlight your name in red in my post so I made another post after it to add it. I don't see how I was flailing around. I still want my question answered.
I wasn't all that suspicious of you in the first place. But I'm beginning to have doubts. Falsely accusing someone of flailing when they had only made one post just speaks that you either did not read carefully over what was said or are just trying to get someone lynched.
blackmagechill:Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?
blackmagechill:You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?I've been suspicious since he freaked out over the one question thing. One question is a read because it shows you have laxed suspicions. Using hypocritical statements to defend your actions is a bigger one. And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.
You still didn't answer my question of why you didn't pressure vote him in the first place.
Borno: I already asked Fiskav why he is suspicious of me, and why he is going around accusing people without saying why. He has yet to answer. Go back a few pages and you'll see my post.No, I don't want Fiskav's opinion. I want yours.
borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?No. I need to get a read on people's thoughts and opinions, which will probably come useful in later situations.
IronyOwl: Very well, I'll tell what I did read from that and why I kept it a secret.
I'll start with the why: I wasn't completely sure and I certainly wasn't confident enough about what I though to share with others, especially since it carried the risk of making me look stupid and even making my situation worse. So yes, it was partially out of fear and I admit that.
Now, what I did get from that: He seemed to misunderstand (intentionally or not) most of my statements. If it was because they were confusing for any reason, I apologize. However, he decided to FoS and later vote me because I "felt wierd". Now, this is (or was) RVS, thus voting to pressure is normal. However, when questioned himself he was clearly defensive, even angry, and kept re-stating the same things, mostly how I "felt wierd". This has led me to belive there is something off here and thus I hereby clearly and fully accuse him of being scum due to behaviour I belive to be that of scum.
My question to fiskav still stands, I'd like to know why.
Fiskav: Back one or two pages I asked you why you considered me suspicious. You seem to have avoided that question. In fact you also accused other people without stating any evidence either. Why is that? Are you hiding something?I hope this will also cause fiskav to answer it.
Speaking of...1) Depends a lot on the state of the game (i.e. which day is it, power-role heavy, etc.). As a rule of thumb, I would say that I generally claim cop info after two inspections, regardless of results. Claiming results usually gets people to adjust thier votes. If I wasn't ready to claim for some reason, I'd throw out a general comment or two about not feeling that person is scum (with reasons!) and focus on someone I felt was more scummy.
Shakerag
As a cop if the town starts fingering a player you know to be a townie how would you go about trying to swing their votes in a different direction?
[And an IC question: how long do you normally wait for a player to respond to your questions before firing another barrage at them?]
borno, the more I read over our exchange, the more I can't help but wonder where you were getting I was referring to Deathsword from. Your vote on BMC smells like a chainsaw, and your questioning of Deathsword about this whole Fiskav and "suspicion" thing feels like scumbuddy pussyfooting around.Wait, you're talking about this post?
What's your case on BMC? Is it solid enough that you didn't need to follow up with more questioning to him?
Deathsword:Anyway, I found it scummy how he voted for deathsword only after deathsword FoS'd him, and not when his so called 'Suspicions' formed. It would probably of been fine if he had done it earlier, but instead only when it is brought up again does he vote for him.I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.Townies are not supposed to care all too much about what might look townie and what might not; They're supposed to be more concerned about actively scum hunting.
BMC:Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.Why, then did you vote Deathsword over a FoS? It would of been fine to vote for him earlier as an RVS vote, when you you had 'Suspicions' over what he was saying. But then when he FoS's you you suddenly vote for him.
@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.
Theodolus:Borno: Assume you were the godfather and another scum was being fingered. Would you try to protect him by casting suspicion elsewhere or would you Bus him to gain credibility?In most cases I would start attacking someone else, to take the heat off of him. It would help is the cop is still alive (If there is a cop.)
I'm going to start doing my homework now, so I won't be able to post until its finished.
Unfortunately, after just trying to read half this thread, I have finally deduced that I am in no fit state for consciousness right now, let alone scumhunting... Though I feel compelled to post anyway, so...If you don't have anything reasonable to post in the current moment, don't post it, and even if this may be meant as a sort of humor, don't. Remember that Mafia is Serious Business, and that Timezones happen.EVERYONE
EVERYONE ELSE
Now, good night...
Anyway, I found it scummy how he voted for deathsword only after deathsword FoS'd him, and not when his so called 'Suspicions' formed. It would probably of been fine if he had done it earlier, but instead only when it is brought up again does he vote for him.And does that make him 100% scum in your book? If not, why aren't you pressuring him more to make certain? That's a good reason for a pressure vote and a follow through, but just voting BMC with a reason like that and walking away paints you as a lazy scumbucket.
Shakerag: I haven't voted for fiskav yet since I'd like to keep my vote on BMC, who I am quite sure is scum. While fiskav has been strangely absent from this thread, I do not have much more to follow on unless I get an answer.Hey scumbag, quick poking lurkers to make it look like you're doing something and get to some real scumhunting. Why don't you start with making a convincing case as to why BMC is scum, and end with positing some good scumhunting questions to someone.
This brings me to...
IronyOwl, Chaos Armor and Theodolus: All of you have been active lately in the forum, yet you all seem content in sitting on the sidelines, keeping the atention on others. Why is that?
I have a gut feeling BMC is a townie
BMC has the scummiest feel to himwat
Shakerag: I haven't voted for fiskav yet since I'd like to keep my vote on BMC, who I am quite sure is scum. While fiskav has been strangely absent from this thread, I do not have much more to follow on unless I get an answer.Hey scumbag, quick poking lurkers to make it look like you're doing something and get to some real scumhunting. Why don't you start with making a convincing case as to why BMC is scum, and end with positing some good scumhunting questions to someone.
This brings me to...
IronyOwl, Chaos Armor and Theodolus: All of you have been active lately in the forum, yet you all seem content in sitting on the sidelines, keeping the atention on others. Why is that?
IronyOwl: lurk moar, newb. You content with that vote on Deathsword?D:<
Further reason on why BMC is scum, or is acting very scummy: In his latest posts, he seems quite desperate on trying to escape the lynch. I am not going to repeat what I already stated earlier unless necessary.Have you been investigating him lately, or are you so confident that he's scum that you don't need any more questions or interactions?
abculatter_2: Hi and welcome to the game. Get to reading and give me your top two scumpicks with reasons why. Also, what's your mafia experience, if any?
If you don't have anything reasonable to post in the current moment, don't post it, and even if this may be meant as a sort of humor, don't. Remember that Mafia is Serious Business, and that Timezones happen.
I have a gut feeling BMC is a townieBMC has the scummiest feel to himwat
So he feels like a townie, or he feels like scum? Which is it?
abculatter_2
First off, how about answering the last half of Shakerag's question: what's your mafia experience, if any? After that, what do you believe is the number one thing you as a mafia player should remember during this game?
Sorry, I can't go on the forums much any more, so
Request Replacement.
Sorry, I can't go on the forums much any more, soI'd comment snarkily but I'm in no position to. Hope you can join a game for good sometime, it's a lot more satisfying (and instructive) than just getting the first day.
Request Replacement.
Sorry, I can't go on the forums much any more, soI'd comment snarkily but I'm in no position to. Hope you can join a game for good sometime, it's a lot more satisfying (and instructive) than just getting the first day.
Request Replacement.
Extend, though I doubt it. I guess I'll unvote Deathsword just on principle, but I get the feeling BMC's lynch is an inertiawagon.
*obvious eyebrow raise* You think? I like how only the ICs and BMC himself are not voting for him.I didn't realize it was that bad. 9 people is a smaller game than I'm used to.
[I am a terrible person]*obvious eyebrow raise* You think? I like how only the ICs and BMC himself are not voting for him.I didn't realize it was that bad. 9 people is a smaller game than I'm used to.
BMC:He's been almost (had been) entirely avoiding
Could you please explain all your reasons for voting Fiskav right now?
BMC: I'm sure you've at least skimmed the tips (or old games), so why the hell are you trying a last-ditch blackmail attempt? It won't help town stop a mislynch, and it certainly won't help scum like you. You have given me zero reason, in your behavior or response, to think that you're town.I knew I might be going away, and, I wasn't counting on an extend. I'm not trying to blackmail, I'm making possible preparations. It's more like a will than a "you guys are fucked if you kill me" type of thing. Blackmail never really works, unless you're trying to warn the town about getting the brunt of an on death effect.
BMC: Also, promising future content and failing to deliver.If you had checked my profile I haven't been on in the past four days, so don't give me the "you bait and switched, scum!11" bit.
Further reason on why BMC is scum, or is acting very scummy: In his latest posts, he seems quite desperate on trying to escape the lynch. I am not going to repeat what I already stated earlier unless necessary.In addition to what I said to Flying Dice, I'd also like to say that people like to defend you. I am determined that YOU are scum, if only becuase people happen to defend you and pressure vote any investigation quite a bit. Scum with who, I don't know, but right now Deathsword wouldn't look out of place at the bottom of a fish tank.
Restating my case on BMC:I voted for you because I got chainsawed after I put a bit of pressure on you. I have a feeling the better part of your voting is OMGUS after all that questioning. And among all the evidence against me, that's probably the worst. Flying dice has believable points, and to an extent so does Theoldus, but you could do better with some specification on "Often repeating the same arguments.
Keeps misunderstanding (I belive it's intentonally, but could be wrong on this one) statements by others.
He voted for me right after I FoS'ed him.
When questioned, he was defensive and seemed angry. Often repeating the same arguments.
Appears to be desperate with the concept of being lynched, and tried to make the lynch seem like a bad idea.
These are the main reasons I am quite sure he is scum, and thus my vote is on him.
BlackMageChill, mainly because he's been overly accusatory this entire game, then he became overly defensive when questioned, and now he's just giving up in one big hissy-fit.I'm more offended about the capitalization than the vote. Tone down the shift key, please.
You and me both, bro. At least you guys know a pro when you see one. :DSorry, I can't go on the forums much any more, soI'd comment snarkily but I'm in no position to. Hope you can join a game for good sometime, it's a lot more satisfying (and instructive) than just getting the first day.
Request Replacement.
Extend, though I doubt it. I guess I'll unvote Deathsword just on principle, but I get the feeling BMC's lynch is an inertiawagon.
*obvious eyebrow raise* You think? I like how only the ICs and BMC himself are not voting for him.
Go on...?BMC:He's been almost (had been) entirely avoiding
Could you please explain all your reasons for voting Fiskav right now?
In addition to what I said to Flying Dice, I'd also like to say that people like to defend you. I am determined that YOU are scum, if only becuase people happen to defend you and pressure vote any investigation quite a bit. Scum with who, I don't know, but right now Deathsword wouldn't look out of place at the bottom of a fish tank.This is no good, especially the first part. There's no reason being defended by someone would make them more likely to be scum, unless you assume the defenders are their buddies. But, that only works if the people defending them are scum.
I voted for you because I got chainsawed after I put a bit of pressure on you. I have a feeling the better part of your voting is OMGUS after all that questioning. And among all the evidence against me, that's probably the worst. Flying dice has believable points, and to an extent so does Theoldus, but you could do better with some specification on "Often repeating the same arguments.
Clarification: Logically, and based off his posts and history this game, I get a very scummy feel from BMC. The gut feeling that he's just a newb townie comes from reading a previous mafia game he was in, in which his behavior was much the same and he ended up a townie. However I find basing a vote on a feeling that is influenced by a completely unrelated incident to be bad form. In other words, logic and thought based off current behavior outweighs 'gut feelings' based off prior behavior. (That's what I get for typing a mafia post while on a steady dose of percocet)[Basically what you're describing there is known in more common nomenclature as a "meta-tell". Which basically boils down to "player a usually acts like x when he's town and acts like y when he's scum, therefore since he's acting like x|y, he must be town|scum". Some players around here use that more than others. I'm inclined to advise to not bother with meta-tells in general. Having said that, there can be some exceptions, but that's not really relevant to the scope of this game.]
What would be the most important thing to remember... Hmmm... I would say, stay low-key, and don't go hoppin' around voting on everyone. But I'm a nub, so what would I know?[Not much. Yet, anyway. The most important thing to remember is to scumhunt. It doesn't matter if you're town or scum, that is the most important thing. Staying low-key can make you look lurky and/or passive, which may lead to your lynching. Vote-hopping can look scummy as well, but if you have (and state!) good reasons for switching your vote each time, then that really isn't too suspicious.]
As for #2... I actually have a few #2s...Why are you FoS'ing CA without making points of your own, and substituting FD's points? Also, I hope you're learning how to balance humor, because your first statement seems confusing in the least.FiskavPPE: OH WHOOPS LOL I'M REPLACING HIM! (Which means next day, I should totally vote myself, because I've obviously now inherited his scumminess! ... Despite the fact that I can now see his alignment!)
Chaos Armor, as Flying Dice's points are very good, and we've yet to hear back from him.
Also, Deathsword acted rather defensively when accused by BMC, and as everyone else has pointed out, his arguments were illogical and panicky.
Bluh, brother's been on pretty much since i left that last post...How does your brother being on(line?) have to do with this?abculatter_2
First off, how about answering the last half of Shakerag's question: what's your mafia experience, if any? After that, what do you believe is the number one thing you as a mafia player should remember during this game?
Whoops, forgot about that second part, lol...
I've tried one mafia game before this which I can remember, which was over mibbit. I had no idea what the hell I was supposed to do, so I ended up just saying, "lol fuckit" and pretty much suicided by making everyone think I was mafia. I'm definitely going to put more effort into this game, though.
As for your question... Well, the first thing I'd try to remember is that I'm not a mafia player, but I'll just pretend I have amnesia...
What would be the most important thing to remember... Hmmm... I would say, stay low-key, and don't go hoppin' around voting on everyone. But I'm a nub, so what would I know?
Also, I hope not summarily lynching you for not answering my questions is what's giving you the idea that ignoring them works.can you explain exactly what you're trying to say here? I'm a bit confused why you would want him to think ignoring a question works despite the fact that you followed up and said that if he hadn't answered them in a real game you would've lynched him by now.
As for your question... Well, the first thing I'd try to remember is that I'm not a mafia player, but I'll just pretend I have amnesia...so just to clarify you think that rather than going scum hunting it's more important to try to stay out of the limelight?
What would be the most important thing to remember... Hmmm... I would say, stay low-key, and don't go hoppin' around voting on everyone. But I'm a nub, so what would I know?
Tiruin
what sort of experience do you have playing Mafia? how does it feel to be replacing somebody who is suspected to be scum? as the Godfather what would be your long-term plan to best leverage your position? As the cop how would you go about uncovering the Godfather?
BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.Could you say what you see in an OMGUS that makes a person scummy?
My top suspicions currently are Chaos Armor andSo why aren't you questioning abc? What do you consider scummy, by the way?Fiskavabculatter_2.
The problem with fiskav/abculatter is that whiel fiskav did act somwhat scummy (abculatter even commented on it), abculatter himself hasn't done anything that I could consider scummy.
As for your question... Well, the first thing I'd try to remember is that I'm not a mafia player, but I'll just pretend I have amnesia...
What would be the most important thing to remember... Hmmm... I would say, stay low-key, and don't go hoppin' around voting on everyone. But I'm a nub, so what would I know?
Flying Dice:Put simply, when someone attacks someone for poor/no reason right after being accused by that person, it looks less like scumhunting and more like defensive scum trying to take pressure off. Of course, that tends to lead to confusion in games like this because (as we've seen) newtown can get nervous and do the same thing. Of course, you could have gotten that from the definition of OMGUS; why are you softballing me?BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.Could you say what you see in an OMGUS that makes a person scummy?
My top suspicions currently are Chaos Armor andFiskavabculatter_2.
The problem with fiskav/abculatter is that whiel fiskav did act somwhat scummy (abculatter even commented on it), abculatter himself hasn't done anything that I could consider scummy.
Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.
Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?
That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.
So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?
Anyhow. BMC is still scummy as all hell to me, and that blackmail he's been throwing around hasn't helped his case. BMC: I'm sure you've at least skimmed the tips (or old games), so why the hell are you trying a last-ditch blackmail attempt? It won't help town stop a mislynch, and it certainly won't help scum like you. You have given me zero reason, in your behavior or response, to think that you're town.
Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?
The words, the words, oh god, the words... ._. Apparently, I've become bad at reading... And short-term memory...Quoteabculatter_2: Hi and welcome to the game. Get to reading and give me your top two scumpicks with reasons why. Also, what's your mafia experience, if any?
BlackMageChill, mainly because he's been overly accusatory this entire game, then he became overly defensive when questioned, and now he's just giving up in one big hissy-fit.
As for #2... I actually have a few #2s...FiskavPPE: OH WHOOPS LOL I'M REPLACING HIM! (Which means next day, I should totally vote myself, because I've obviously now inherited his scumminess! ... Despite the fact that I can now see his alignment!)
Chaos Armor, as Flying Dice's points are very good, and we've yet to hear back from him.
Also, Deathsword acted rather defensively when accused by BMC, and as everyone else has pointed out, his arguments were illogical and panicky.
I know I really should give more reasoning then that, but I'm still trying to find the search function that allows one to search for all posts in a thread by a single user, so I can get some more focused scrutiny on everyone here.
If there is no such search function, I will shit my pants and throw them at the computer screen... Then wonder why the hell I did that, clean up, and proceed to accuse everyone of everything (make a post summarizing everyone's actions, one at a time, then voice my suspicions and questions on them).If you don't have anything reasonable to post in the current moment, don't post it, and even if this may be meant as a sort of humor, don't. Remember that Mafia is Serious Business, and that Timezones happen.
Sorry... I am going to say this now to everyone that, as you can probably tell, it's hard for me to take things TOO seriously... I can almost promise you that I will likely shove SOME kind of humor into all of my posts, because that's just how I am. I don't do SERIOUS BUSINESS very well...
IronyOwlI've been lazy. I wish there was a better excuse for it, but there isn't.
it's strange that you speak about having to be completely active to be able to do anything in this game and then you end up lurking for extended periods of time. I find it suspicious that despite admitting that your vote on death sword would've been better had it been fresher you retained it until you knew that it would do absolutely no good one way or the other because BMC was being inertia-lynched. despite the fact that you have been on frequently you haven't been scum hunting and haven't been doing anything to further town goals.Also, I hope not summarily lynching you for not answering my questions is what's giving you the idea that ignoring them works.can you explain exactly what you're trying to say here? I'm a bit confused why you would want him to think ignoring a question works despite the fact that you followed up and said that if he hadn't answered them in a real game you would've lynched him by now.
-snip-You...copied what I was asking to abc.
Why the overreaction? Softballing?Flying Dice:Put simply, when someone attacks someone for poor/no reason right after being accused by that person, it looks less like scumhunting and more like defensive scum trying to take pressure off. Of course, that tends to lead to confusion in games like this because (as we've seen) newtown can get nervous and do the same thing. Of course, you could have gotten that from the definition of OMGUS; why are you softballing me?BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.Could you say what you see in an OMGUS that makes a person scummy?Spoiler: Whole post for context (click to show/hide)
BlackMageChill, mainly because he's been overly accusatory this entire game, then he became overly defensive when questioned, and now he's just giving up in one big hissy-fit.
Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?
FlyingDice:
That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.
So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?
-snip-
The questions I was going to ask BMC were already asked by another person before me. I saw no reason to ask them again. It would simply be the same answer. I will admit that I could have done a little less sidelining but time and internet restricted me.
Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?
What do I have to say for myself? What I have to say is that I fail to see how being the first person to vote makes it my bandwagon. Unless you are insinuating that Jim gave me a power called the "Jim Bot Fallacy" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2697753#msg2697753), then I fail to see how it is my bandwagon. You yourself voted for BMC later. So maybe it is you who I should be accusing you of bandwagoning? You explained it away using the same reasons as everyone else.
What do you have to say for yourself, Flying Dice?
blackmagechill:Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while.
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?
EBWOP:You made one (relatively) valid point AND THEN COMPLETELY IGNORED HIM. That does not look like you scumhunting, that looks like you dropping a vote on him because he was an easy target.
I forgot to put blackmagechill's name in red.
Why the overreaction? Softballing?Flying Dice:Put simply, when someone attacks someone for poor/no reason right after being accused by that person, it looks less like scumhunting and more like defensive scum trying to take pressure off. Of course, that tends to lead to confusion in games like this because (as we've seen) newtown can get nervous and do the same thing. Of course, you could have gotten that from the definition of OMGUS; why are you softballing me?BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.Could you say what you see in an OMGUS that makes a person scummy?Spoiler: Whole post for context (click to show/hide)
All I wanted to know how was how you saw it, as BMC didn't OMGUS in the first day. His first vote was on Deathsword, who only has an FOS on him back. You accused him of an OMGUS at that time, by the way.
An OMGUS is a term for a vote solely of being voted. Period. A person can attack others based on his own reasoning, it could also be made for pressure. It isn't an OMGUS (though technically) if backed up by good reasons.
Actually, he didn't OMGUS anyone. You were the first to bring up the notion, and somehow others followed in the belief.
abc OMGUS'd BMC, as Fiskav's rep.BlackMageChill, mainly because he's been overly accusatory this entire game, then he became overly defensive when questioned, and now he's just giving up in one big hissy-fit.
Come to think of it: abculatter_2, what do you see in being overly accusatory in relation to being scum?
Flying Dice, you could use -snip-s to shorten those posts...
AndQuoteStill waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?
He was the first person to vote on BMC, on a re-read. An RVS question that stuck because he thought it was worth it.Pointed out by CA.
Why are you accusing him of a bandwagon when he was the first one to vote?
Why are you mangling the use of OMGUS?
Flying Dice: Why exactly do you feel BMC's vote on Deathsword was an OMGUS? To me, it looks like the two of them were faffing about at first, Deathsword went paranoid-defensive and WIFOMy (IronyOwl's analysis of his posts around this point is interesting as well), dropped an FoS on BMC for reasons I can't really see, and then BMC voted Deathsword and included reasons for why. What am I missing? Also, you stated at some point D1 that Deathsword "hit the top of my list of suspicions" (#83). What made him fall from the top position?
Also, sorry about not being on top of that post I promised, but I've had a crappy day, so I really don't feel like slogging through all those words right now...Got anything for us, abculatter?
A question for you: How do you feel about the lynch on BMC? Do you believe it was an inertiawagon or something else?What happened to BMC is what has happened in a lot of beginner's games I've seen: he had the misfortune of being the first to screw up. That's pretty much a guaranteed death sentence in a beginner's game, and often is in other games as well (especially since beginners don't know how to handle all of that early-game attention well). Hopefully we'll impress upon you all that your first suspicion of the day is not necessarily going to be your last one of the day as well.
(I am quite sure this question has been asked by somone else and aimed at someone other than you, but I'd like to hear you opinion on this).
Abculatter: What do you think happened during the night? Do you think there is a doctor or that the scum team did not kill on purpose?
Tiruin
what sort of experience do you have playing Mafia? how does it feel to be replacing somebody who is suspected to be scum? as the Godfather what would be your long-term plan to best leverage your position? As the cop how would you go about uncovering the Godfather?
Please clarify on what kind of sort do you mean. Basically, I only know Mafia through my sojourns on Bay12, forum Mafia that is. I'm unsure as to my personal abilities, but know the basics in handling myself. I'm perfectly fine as a replacement.
Also, could you clarify what you mean by leverage? In the long-term, basically, I would be aiming to complete my wincon.
As a Cop, I wouldn't actually know if my target was Godfather or not, given the word 'town' upon inspect is the same but basically, I would always suspect the chance of a Godfather. Basically, it breaks down into scumhunting.
Also, I've noticed you rated Fiskav and borno higher on your suspicions, but went ahead to lynch BMC instead. Why?
Theodolus, you were the other person I saw going after BMC (apart from myself) with something approaching real reasoning; do you think that someone was pushing a bandwagon on him, or was his death more of an inertiawagon? I'm thinking on my own conclusions regarding this, but I'm interesting in seeing what you have to say as well.and
As for you, why'd you ignore your gut on BMC and go for the lynch instead? What do you think of your decision now?
Theodolus: Do you feel that BMC's vote on Deathsword was an OMGUS? What do you think about BMC's arguments about the other players now that you know he was town?
Theodolus: Do you feel that BMC's vote on Deathsword was an OMGUS? What do you think about BMC's arguments about the other players now that you know he was town?I don't necessarily believe it was an OMGUS, no. More a knee-jerk reaction by an inexperienced townie. If he had voted Chaos Armor it would have been an OMGUS, but he'd been sparring with Deathsword for a while by that time and not being FoS'd until a vote was cast on him... Well, I think it made him realize he needed to start putting pressure on, but it was too late and then everyone started calling it an OMGUS.
abculatter_2 needs to post and be prodded.
IronyOwl:He gave satisfactory enough answers that I really didn't think it was doing any good. I had and still have something of a gut suspicion of him, but it wasn't enough to productively vote him.Why are you such a lazWhy did you unvote Deathsword D1? Was it just a pressure vote? Who did you think was scum at the end of D1 and why?
I believe his death was due to a combination of beginner behavior and inertia. As for my own reasons for voting him, he began to panic in excess as it got closer to end of day and began using what I thought were very scummy attempts at convincing others to remove their votes from him. I would have probably not voted for him if he had remained a bit more active in the closing days and focused on actual scum hunting instead of doing nothing with his time except trying to defend himself.Fair enough.
Abculatter: What do you think happened during the night? Do you think there is a doctor or that the scum team did not kill on purpose?What did you hope to gain from this question? Shakerag's already explained that night WIFOM isn't useful, so what are you trying for here?
Since abculatter is staying completely silent, I'm going to unvote him and vote Chaos Armor as my final vote for the day. I'm quite sure he used my skirmish with BMC to start a bandwagon and get him killed while making me look bad, since I was the one who attacked BMC the most.Based on what? If you've given any elaborate explanations of why you feel this way, I seem to have missed them.
Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.
Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?
Specifics. Why do you consider all of this to be like you say and not something else?Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.
Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?
To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.
Tiruin: You're replacing in for someone I felt was scum D1. What's your quick take on the reasons everyone had for voting thier target D1?Everyone believed they were right in laying down their votes for those people, and let them stick until their feelings on those people were clarified by their responses.
Tiruin, what's your opinion of Flying Dice's case on Chaos Armor?He's trying to implicate CA on a probability, and based partly off wrong (or how I see it) reasoning stated below.
Hm, from the looks of this (and earlier point on CA), I'd say you're attacking him on the weak reason that he started a bandwagon.Spoiler: Snip :P (click to show/hide)
"[...]but BMC only voted Deathsword after he was voted and FoSed, and it looked like a textbook OMGUS to me; voting someone who just pressured/FoSed/Voted you to try and get them to back off."
Between the point where he voted for BMC and the point where BMC was mislynched, CA made ONE post with any sort of content, and his response to BMC was essentially "Lol I'm pressuring you, now answer my question the way I want you to, kthxbai. I never said that CA joined a bandwagon, I said that he was bandwagoning, which in this case meant starting one for little reason and letting it run out of control without bothering to do any more scumhunting. That looks scummy as all hell to me; it says that he didn't care who got lynched as long as someone did. In my case, I held off until I had what I felt was enough evidence to justify a vote; I may be in a less opportune place on the voting chart, but if it is because I bothered to do something approaching a proper investigation, I don't really care.not (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3353115#msg3353115) really (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3357406#msg3357406). He didn't go all "NO U" on the pressure, but stated what he thought about BMC.
[Okay, seriously here, everyone. What's with the lack of posting? I took a five-day vacation in the middle of D1 and I still have more posts than some of you.
abculatter_2 needs to post and be prodded.
Chaos Armor needs to post a lot more or ask for a replacement if he can't access the internet reliably.
Flying Dice/IronyOwl have fewer posts than me, and could step it up a bit.
Day ends today, people. Let's get asses in gear. And so help me god if you all ask for another extension and end up pissing it away.]
Chaos Armor
I know your claims for inactivity, but what's your excuse for an absolute absence of scum hunting? Were you really that positive BMC was scum that you couldn't search around for his scum buddy even? Or did you know all along what Deathsword's plan was?
Chaos Armor: Who do you think had the weakest case on BMC D1 and why?
Furthermore, blackmagechill seems very defensive, even somwhat angry, when questioned by people other than me, so, for that, he gets my vote.
IronyOwl: The reasons themselves were not really elaborated on my previous posts, but I'm going to quote myself.Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.
Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?
To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.
I am aware Chaos Armor has claimed he was unable to post due to running low on internet, but if he is unable to post regularly for any reason, then he should ask for a replacement.
I can't tell if you're being a smart-ass or not, so to clarify and re-word: Who do you feel had poor/weak resoning behind thier vote at the end of D1?Tiruin: You're replacing in for someone I felt was scum D1. What's your quick take on the reasons everyone had for voting thier target D1?Everyone believed they were right in laying down their votes for those people, and let them stick until their feelings on those people were clarified by their responses.
Extend.
Flying Dice: Honestly, as of right now, I'm not really seeing Chaos Armor as terribly scummy nor a bandwagon starter. Looking back at early D1, I see newbie behavior, and I see that he possibly had a good point on BMC's claim of "being suspicious of Deathsword the whole game" ... because the game had been going for all of four hours at that point. Do you think that's valid in context?
Besides, if you've that much fervor for CA, then why not vote him?
How does one start a bandwagon, Flying Dice? I can certainly see how one joins one (http://[quote author=Flying Dice link=topic=110494.msg3354929#msg3354929 date=1339165166). My reasons for voting you Flying Dice are as follows: You voted me for nonsensical reasons then took it off to avoid looking like you were attacking me. You jumped on a bandwagon D1 looking for an easy lynch. And so far your voting style looks like you're just following the crowd and trying to get someone lynched.
Deathsword:
You've been a target practically since the start of D1. Do you feel that there is a specific aspect of your play that is drawing fire? You admitted that your WIFOM in #57 was one of the things that made you look scummy; why did you decide to post something like that, especially in RVS?
Deathsword:Chaos Armor: Who do you think had the weakest case on BMC D1 and why?
I think Deathsword had the weakest case. Looking back on it he simply stated...Furthermore, blackmagechill seems very defensive, even somwhat angry, when questioned by people other than me, so, for that, he gets my vote.
He includes the least amount of reasons and they are a little vague, so I see his as the worst.
"When questioned by people other than me". That statement just sticks out to me. I can't put a finger on it though.
IronyOwl: Very well, I'll tell what I did read from that and why I kept it a secret.
I'll start with the why: I wasn't completely sure and I certainly wasn't confident enough about what I though to share with others, especially since it carried the risk of making me look stupid and even making my situation worse. So yes, it was partially out of fear and I admit that.
Now, what I did get from that: He seemed to misunderstand (intentionally or not) most of my statements. If it was because they were confusing for any reason, I apologize. However, he decided to FoS and later vote me because I "felt wierd". Now, this is (or was) RVS, thus voting to pressure is normal. However, when questioned himself he was clearly defensive, even angry, and kept re-stating the same things, mostly how I "felt wierd". This has led me to belive there is something off here and thus I hereby clearly and fully accuse him of being scum due to behaviour I belive to be that of scum.
My question to fiskav still stands, I'd like to know why.
Restating my case on BMC:
Keeps misunderstanding (I belive it's intentonally, but could be wrong on this one) statements by others.
He voted for me right after I FoS'ed him.
When questioned, he was defensive and seemed angry. Often repeating the same arguments.
Appears to be desperate with the concept of being lynched, and tried to make the lynch seem like a bad idea.
These are the main reasons I am quite sure he is scum, and thus my vote is on him.
And here you get it wrong. BMC cast his suspicions on Deathy here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3350972#msg3350972), the one you quoted by the way.So I'm a "Deathy" now? I'm flattered.
Extend PFP.
Post in ~ 7 hours...
Shakerag and IronyOwl:If I'm voting for someone and not continuing to question them, then I'm pretty confident that they're scum. BMC flipping town isn't a basis for my suspicions on Deathsword, but that helped to reinforce them. I'm not going to go back and review IronyOwl's specific reasons, but I'd be inclined to assume that he's picking up on the same things that I am.
You've had your votes on Deathsword practically since the start of D2 and haven't been talking to him very much in the past few days. How certain of your suspicions are you; and are your suspicions of him primarily based on BMC flipping town after he and Deathsword went after each other? Incidentally, why have you two been (apart from a time around June 15th) pursuing the same person to such a degree?
Now would be...?Extend PFP.
Post in ~ 7 hours...
Mmmph, RL got in the way...post coming up now.
Shakerag and IronyOwl:I've been talking to him as much as I've been able, weekend excluded, but he hadn't been very active either.
You've had your votes on Deathsword practically since the start of D2 and haven't been talking to him very much in the past few days. How certain of your suspicions are you; and are your suspicions of him primarily based on BMC flipping town after he and Deathsword went after each other? Incidentally, why have you two been (apart from a time around June 15th) pursuing the same person to such a degree?
If I missed something, please point it out to me.And this is why I really need to be at least a little active. You missed this:
Deathsword:To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.Specifics. Why do you consider all of this to be like you say and not something else?
For instance, CA voted BMC because he saw an opening due to you and BMC going at it, right? How do you know this?
IronyOwl: Most of the questions I've asked Shakerag also apply to you. You haven't questioned him. Ever. You based your vote on nooby reactions coming from me on the first day and some bad questions on this day. So would you care to explain yourself and your trust on you best buddy Shakerag?I really don't have time to hunt the other IC right now, with newbies scumming it up left and right. He's done nothing to raise my suspicions and finding him out would be extremely difficult and drawn-out, so until I get something good to go on, I'm not going to hunt him for the sake of hunting him.
Deathsword:This could also be asked of Theodolus, since his accusation of me is quite similar, simply inversing the roles of Chaos Armor and myself. Quote:If I missed something, please point it out to me.And this is why I really need to be at least a little active. You missed this:Deathsword:To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.Specifics. Why do you consider all of this to be like you say and not something else?
For instance, CA voted BMC because he saw an opening due to you and BMC going at it, right? How do you know this?
From where I'm sitting right now it seems like you're hoping to pull off another 'BMC Special' on D2. What's that, you ask? Well, here's my take on how D1 went down. You, being scum, engaged the first person to cross your path. You pushed him hard and got him to crack and start acting scummy. Then Chaos Armor did exactly what you were hoping for and you got the first vote thrown on BMC. You followed it up with a FoS, hoping to get others to start being suspicious of BMC. Borno took the bait and you had the beginnings of the bandwagon you were hoping for. You jumped on and inertia (and continued missteps by BMC) took care of the rest. Of course, your first pick, Chaos Armor, isn't responding very quickly (or is a scumbuddy and was a red herring vote you threw out there for appearances) and neither is abculatter, so it's a bit more obvious what you're aiming for this time around.No one seems to be questioning his proof on it, however.
FlyingDice:He really didn't answer the question, instead he simply threw some sarcasm at Flying Dice.
That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.
So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?
Anyhow. BMC is still scummy as all hell to me, and that blackmail he's been throwing around hasn't helped his case. BMC: I'm sure you've at least skimmed the tips (or old games), so why the hell are you trying a last-ditch blackmail attempt? It won't help town stop a mislynch, and it certainly won't help scum like you. You have given me zero reason, in your behavior or response, to think that you're town.
The questions I was going to ask BMC were already asked by another person before me. I saw no reason to ask them again. It would simply be the same answer. I will admit that I could have done a little less sidelining but time and internet restricted me.
Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?
What do I have to say for myself? What I have to say is that I fail to see how being the first person to vote makes it my bandwagon. Unless you are insinuating that Jim gave me a power called the "Jim Bot Fallacy" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2697753#msg2697753), then I fail to see how it is my bandwagon. You yourself voted for BMC later. So maybe it is you who I should be accusing you of bandwagoning? You explained it away using the same reasons as everyone else.
Deathsword:His "evidence" is literally exactly all my arguments as to why BMC was scum. He just repeated what I kept saying for all of D1.My top suspicions currently are Chaos Armor andFiskavabculatter_2.
The problem with fiskav/abculatter is that whiel fiskav did act somwhat scummy (abculatter even commented on it), abculatter himself hasn't done anything that I could consider scummy.
Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.
Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?
He was my RVS vote. That was my first post and when I picked someone at random he is the player that came up. I used that pressure vote from RVS to question him. I continued to use the vote to pressure while I questioned him. See below for my evidence against him as most of you have asked for it.Spoiler: Evidence (click to show/hide)
Also, are you voting Chaos Armor because you're certain he's scum, or because you think he's the easiest target other than yourself?Look above.
If you were scum right now, who do you think you'd be going after to save yourself?I'd keep going at Chaos Armor to see if I could get another vote on him, either causing him to be lynched (myslynched, in this hypotetical situation) or having no lynch happen.
((I don't ever try to be a smart-ass :-\))I can't tell if you're being a smart-ass or not, so to clarify and re-word: Who do you feel had poor/weak resoning behind thier vote at the end of D1?Tiruin: You're replacing in for someone I felt was scum D1. What's your quick take on the reasons everyone had for voting thier target D1?Everyone believed they were right in laying down their votes for those people, and let them stick until their feelings on those people were clarified by their responses.
Tiruin: I haven't asked abulatter_2 a question because I simply couldn't think of any that could be used for scumhunting.You ignored my statement, and based on what you said, why aren't you pressing onto those people that aren't avoiding questions or giving detailed answers?
What I consider scummy? Mostly avoiding questions or giving very vague answers, really.
Now that I have actually managed to think of a question and re-read some of the last posts... Abculatter, why is it that you keep giving clearly non-serious and rather confusing answers to the questions of others? Like the others, I would like if you clarified what you meant by (bolded part):As for your question... Well, the first thing I'd try to remember is that I'm not a mafia player, but I'll just pretend I have amnesia...
What would be the most important thing to remember... Hmmm... I would say, stay low-key, and don't go hoppin' around voting on everyone. But I'm a nub, so what would I know?
Chaos Armor:Could you explain why the bolded portions go as reasons for scum? From where I see it, vague in the sense that you aren't explaining why being such means being scum.
Deathsword:Chaos Armor: Who do you think had the weakest case on BMC D1 and why?
I think Deathsword had the weakest case. Looking back on it he simply stated...Furthermore, blackmagechill seems very defensive, even somwhat angry, when questioned by people other than me, so, for that, he gets my vote.
He includes the least amount of reasons and they are a little vague, so I see his as the worst.
"When questioned by people other than me". That statement just sticks out to me. I can't put a finger on it though.
I stated multiple times the detailed reasons for my vote, the first not long after that post, something you conveniently ignored. Are you trying to draw attention away from yourself by taking advantage of the fact that I'm the top suspect for some?
Let me point out where I made my case against BMC:IronyOwl: Very well, I'll tell what I did read from that and why I kept it a secret.
I'll start with the why: I wasn't completely sure and I certainly wasn't confident enough about what I though to share with others, especially since it carried the risk of making me look stupid and even making my situation worse. So yes, it was partially out of fear and I admit that.
Now, what I did get from that: He seemed to misunderstand (intentionally or not) most of my statements. If it was because they were confusing for any reason, I apologize. However, he decided to FoS and later vote me because I "felt wierd". Now, this is (or was) RVS, thus voting to pressure is normal. However, when questioned himself he was clearly defensive, even angry, and kept re-stating the same things, mostly how I "felt wierd". This has led me to belive there is something off here and thus I hereby clearly and fully accuse him of being scum due to behaviour I belive to be that of scum.
My question to fiskav still stands, I'd like to know why.
andRestating my case on BMC:
Keeps misunderstanding (I belive it's intentonally, but could be wrong on this one) statements by others.
He voted for me right after I FoS'ed him.
When questioned, he was defensive and seemed angry. Often repeating the same arguments.
Appears to be desperate with the concept of being lynched, and tried to make the lynch seem like a bad idea.
These are the main reasons I am quite sure he is scum, and thus my vote is on him.
You may not agree with them, but they are certainly not vague. So, why is it that you are twisting the facts, scum?
Abculatter: What do you think happened during the night? Do you think there is a doctor or that the scum team did not kill on purpose?And how does this pressure abculatter?
Name shortcut, please.And here you get it wrong. BMC cast his suspicions on Deathy here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3350972#msg3350972), the one you quoted by the way.So I'm a "Deathy" now? I'm flattered.
In any case, if being honest and open about my thoughts and intentions is going to draw fire, I don't particularly care. I'd rather provide as much reasoning as I can, both as a learning tool and to help town, even if I take flak from scum looking for a mislynch. I screwed up and didn't look around as much as I should have during D1, and if I'm the only one willing to admit that, so be it.Hold on, taking fire? All you have is one vote on you and it seems to me that you're going full assault because of it. What I saw was just a question on how someone could start a bandwagon.
On the note of lack of pressure, I'm rather concerned that the old "ICs can't be scum" mindset is coming up again.What gave you this idea?
Tiruin: So ... back at the beginning of D2 here you voted abculatter_2 for FoSing without making his own points and using someone else's ... but when you call Deathsword out for basically the same thing ... you did nothing? No vote? Not even a FoS? You come flat out and say he's "lacking in trying to scumhunt". And then the question he finally asks is one the IC said not to ask. Where's the follow-up here? I know he's your scumbuddy and all, but please at least try to make it look like you're putting some distance between yourselves.I did say PFP (forgot to bold it now that I see it) when I posted my last other post before I messed up the time. Other than abc, I did have my sights on Flying Dice and decided to ask him before getting back to work. Reasons are above.
Judging by what you said here, looks like you agree on the inertiawagon thing. How?Sorry, I can't go on the forums much any more, soI'd comment snarkily but I'm in no position to. Hope you can join a game for good sometime, it's a lot more satisfying (and instructive) than just getting the first day.
Request Replacement.
Extend, though I doubt it. I guess I'll unvote Deathsword just on principle, but I get the feeling BMC's lynch is an inertiawagon.
*obvious eyebrow raise* You think? I like how only the ICs and BMC himself are not voting for him.
This could also be asked of Theodolus, since his accusation of me is quite similar, simply inversing the roles of Chaos Armor and myself. Quote:I wanted to give him the chance to use that for pressure. If I'd been paying closer attention I probably would have advised him against it or questioned him on it later.
No one seems to be questioning his proof on it, however.
But back to the question: He didn't give any real arguments when Flying Dice accused him (quote incoming):I don't understand what question he didn't answer. Didn't answer satisfactorily, perhaps, but FD asked him why he wasn't hunting, and he explained it. What do you feel he didn't address, and why is that so damning it means he's scum, no further evidence necessary?He really didn't answer the question, instead he simply threw some sarcasm at Flying Dice.Spoiler: Quote (click to show/hide)
Another thing that is quite supicious is this:And? What's wrong with that? Do you feel your arguments against BMC day 1 were so unique or uniquely phrased that you can confidently say he's copying you, not just finding similar issues? Or is there another reason you think he's obviously copying you, or might be copying you but doesn't warrant questioning over it?1. He OMUGUS'd. (Tried to use Bull Manure reasons to back up his vote.)His "evidence" is literally exactly all my arguments as to why BMC was scum. He just repeated what I kept saying for all of D1.
2. More defending than scumhunting.
3. He tried to play the "If you lynch me you are going to regret it" card.
4. Gut feeling. Every time he answered a question something was always off to me.
IronyOwl - Unsure why you unvoted, inertiawagon?Matter of principle. Deathsword had answered all my questions as satisfactorily as I could go that day, so voting him into day's end wouldn't really have sent the right message.
IC/MOD: Is there a limit to FoS's?FoS's are completely informal, so there are no rules on them. Obviously the more you use them the less gravity each one seems to carry, but that's purely a matter of heuristic perception.
Flying Dice:Shakerag and IronyOwl:I've been talking to him as much as I've been able, weekend excluded, but he hadn't been very active either.
You've had your votes on Deathsword practically since the start of D2 and haven't been talking to him very much in the past few days. How certain of your suspicions are you; and are your suspicions of him primarily based on BMC flipping town after he and Deathsword went after each other? Incidentally, why have you two been (apart from a time around June 15th) pursuing the same person to such a degree?
I'm not certain of my suspicion at all; I think Deathsword is hands down the best lynch if we had to lynch someone right now, but how certain am I that he's scum and not a noob? That's a very tough distinction to make, especially when neither of us is as active as we need to be.
My suspicions are based a little on BMC flipping town, but moreso on Deathsword's lack of hunting and absolute certainty on terrible reasons, with BMC just being another example of that. BMC's insistence that Deathsword was scum isn't a factor at all- if he had any golden insights into who was scum and who wasn't, he probably could have explained them better and thus not gotten lynched over them.
I really can't speak to Shakerag's motivations, but presumably because we both find him scummy.
Also, why did you unvote Chaos Armor after Deathsword unvoted him, then revote him shortly afterwards?
Great. Internet dies right before I post, this reply should be Reply #203...So meh, all replies after #205 are down after the PPE @ Shakerag
Flying Dice:QuoteIn any case, if being honest and open about my thoughts and intentions is going to draw fire, I don't particularly care. I'd rather provide as much reasoning as I can, both as a learning tool and to help town, even if I take flak from scum looking for a mislynch. I screwed up and didn't look around as much as I should have during D1, and if I'm the only one willing to admit that, so be it.Hold on, taking fire? All you have is one vote on you and it seems to me that you're going full assault because of it. What I saw was just a question on how someone could start a bandwagon.QuoteOn the note of lack of pressure, I'm rather concerned that the old "ICs can't be scum" mindset is coming up again.What gave you this idea?
...He OMUGUS'd. (Tried to use Bull Manure reasons to back up his vote.)Could you point out those reasons exactly?
You voted me for nonsensical reasons then took it off to avoid looking like you were attacking me. You jumped on a bandwagon D1 looking for an easy lynch.And please expound on how FD did a bandwagon and your reasoning on it.
=snip=So you compare your reasons from CA and decide those are the presiding choices on why he is scum?
Keeps misunderstanding (I belive it's intentonally, but could be wrong on this one) statements by others.
He voted for me right after I FoS'ed him.
When questioned, he was defensive and seemed angry. Often repeating the same arguments.
Appears to be desperate with the concept of being lynched, and tried to make the lynch seem like a bad idea.
1. He OMUGUS'd. (Tried to use Bull Manure reasons to back up his vote.)
2. More defending than scumhunting.
3. He tried to play the "If you lynch me you are going to regret it" card.
4. Gut feeling. Every time he answered a question something was always off to me.
Specifics. Why do you consider all of this to be like you say and not something else?
For instance, CA voted BMC because he saw an opening due to you and BMC going at it, right? How do you know this?
Seems like half of us are having internet problems this game, bleh.Yep. >_>
What happened to BMC is what has happened in a lot of beginner's games I've seen: he had the misfortune of being the first to screw up. That's pretty much a guaranteed death sentence in a beginner's game, and often is in other games as well (especially since beginners don't know how to handle all of that early-game attention well).
Tiruin: You've been repeatedly acting very friendly towards me, as Shakerag has pointed out (more on that below). What are you trying to gain by trying to buddy with the guy with the most votes? Draw suspicion towards me? Because you are doing a fabulous job at that.
Tiruin: You've been repeatedly acting very friendly towards me, as Shakerag has pointed out (more on that below). What are you trying to gain by trying to buddy with the guy with the most votes? Draw suspicion towards me? Because you are doing a fabulous job at that. Furthermore, why haven't you voted anyone yet? You keep calling me out on not scumhunting, yet you are not scumhunting yourself.BS.
...Only when I question why you were trying to look like we were scumbuddies you decide to vote, thus placing me even closer to the lynch.I think you didn't read what I said earlier. And, easy lynch? You do know that I vote people because from where I see it, they're the most scummy, right?
Are you trying to bandwagon by making sure that, since the only vote remaining is from a player that has yet to enter the game (abculatter's replacement), I will be lynched. You would love that wouldn't you, scum? Especially since it would draw attention away from your scumbuddy.
IronyOwl:I do find it interesting that here you state to save yourself (as scum) you'd try to cast more doubts on CA and see if you could get a no lynch to happen. Is that not a valid tactic to take as a townie as well, since you apparently feel he's scum, or do you think you're better served by scum hunting even when nobody seems inclined to unvote you?If you were scum right now, who do you think you'd be going after to save yourself?I'd keep going at Chaos Armor to see if I could get another vote on him, either causing him to be lynched (myslynched, in this hypotetical situation) or having no lynch happen.
Tiruin: You've been repeatedly acting very friendly towards me, as Shakerag has pointed out (more on that below). What are you trying to gain by trying to buddy with the guy with the most votes? Draw suspicion towards me? Because you are doing a fabulous job at that.I'm not trying to gain anything, as I'm not even buddying you. If you see me buddying, then state how and not give a null signal. If I was drawing suspicion towards you, then I guess it is very evident in my post, along with that nice red text that had your name on it. However, you say this like I've been...oh, repeating it? Wow. You're 'more on that below' just cut off your line of thought, and if I have to restate: You have evaded my questions.
Tiruin: Yes, it was quite stupid of me not to heed the IC advice and not pressure BMC more, but there's nothing anyone can do about that now.No, there is. Heeding their advice, now.
The pressure vote on Abcullater was simply to try and get anything out of him, as he said pretty much nothing. The night question was a bad question, and didn't help at all. But I am a terribly unimaginative person and as such these things end up being said.
I didn't say anything about a "full assault"; my implication was more akin to a few stray shots zipping by overhead. I offered a more extensive explanation of my reasoning and thought process because my responses were being largely ignored when I responded with the bare minimum or with nothing but the end of my train of thought. Any reason why you're cherrypicking the least-relevant portions of my posts and misinterpreting metaphorical statements instead of scumhunting?[/i]
In any case, if being honest and open about my thoughts and intentions is going to draw fire, I don't particularly care. I'd rather provide as much reasoning as I can, both as a learning tool and to help town, even if I take flak from scum looking for a mislynch. I screwed up and didn't look around as much as I should have during D1, and if I'm the only one willing to admit that, so be it.You state that you didn't look around as much as you should have in D1, yet your first reason for voting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3387147#msg3387147) him still sounds like it stands, but now you bring out the point in which it is true. CA did lack in scumhunting his target, though whether for reasons in RL/lack of internet affecting it, I cannot see.
How does one start a bandwagon, Flying Dice? I can certainly see how one joins one. My reasons for voting you Flying Dice are as follows: You voted me for nonsensical reasons then took it off to avoid looking like you were attacking me. You jumped on a bandwagon D1 looking for an easy lynch. And so far your voting style looks like you're just following the crowd and trying to get someone lynched.I question how you find a two-player vote on you, a bandwagon. Technically, as of latest votecount, you aren't the one on the lynching board in the sense of a bandwagon.
Tiruin: Why do I mention you in my post to Deathsword? Because of this timeline:Um. What?
-D2 Starts
-Ds votes CA, suspects abc but says abc hasn't done anything scummy
-Tiruin votes abc (which, if I was scum, would be my #1 mislynch pick for D2)
-Tiruin pokes Ds to question abc
-Ds can't think of questions for abc, FoSes abc, then copies your question to abc
-Tiruin totally softballs Ds on the abc topic
-Ds now votes abc (again, ripe mislynch target) with a question I said not to ask
Note that this entire time abculatter_2 never made a post.
So Deathsword starts off D2 voting the wrong guy, Tiruin pops in scumchat and tells Deathsword to vote the easy lynch guy (abc), and Deathsword bumblefucks his way over to voting him.
I don't understand what exactly you're asking about the "inertiawagon thing". (As an aside, was this term thrown around before this game? I don't really remember seeing it before, but I kind of like it anyway.)
I can, of course claim I am town. In fact I'll claim right now I am a vanilla townie, not that it'll change anyone's mind, but putting it out here so that if I end up lynched people may have something to go on.Then this. You know that, people's roles (in a BM) are shown upon death, yes? What did you hope to gain by saying this statement?
Chaos Armor
Your question to Flying Dice was as such:QuoteHow does one start a bandwagon, Flying Dice? I can certainly see how one joins one. My reasons for voting you Flying Dice are as follows: You voted me for nonsensical reasons then took it off to avoid looking like you were attacking me. You jumped on a bandwagon D1 looking for an easy lynch. And so far your voting style looks like you're just following the crowd and trying to get someone lynched.I question how you find a two-player vote on you, a bandwagon. Technically, as of latest votecount, you aren't the one on the lynching board in the sense of a bandwagon.
I don't think nonsensical was what he was seeing it as, pre-correction. Could you explain why Flying Dice jumped on a bandwagon? Post here seems panicking because of another vote.
Based on that last sentence [as FD's vote was focused on you], I can guess you're also saying that the crowd is trying to lynch...you? What statements made you think FD is following the crowd?
Looking back, you did mention that you were having internet problems (though you still managed to make several votes)What do you mean by "still managed to make several votes"?
I can, of course claim I am town. In fact I'll claim right now I am a vanilla townie, not that it'll change anyone's mind, but putting it out here so that if I end up lynched people may have something to go on.Then this. You know that, people's roles (in a BM) are shown upon death, yes? What did you hope to gain by saying this statement?
Do you think that there is a certain type of "feel" that some new players have that makes it basically impossible to tell beforehand if they're scum or town because they react (panic) in the exact same way when pressured? I'm curious to see responses both from you as a player and as an IC.I doubt very many people react in exactly the same way, but yes, some people, new players especially, have a tendency to dig themselves deeper when they panic. This is also somewhat more severe in newer players because you have less metadata on them; at least with established crack-under-pressure people, sometimes people will be familiar enough with them to make a judgement about whether they're being scum-scum or panicking-town-scum.
IronyOwlExcessive or exaggerated claims are indeed valid as pressure tactics. The issue is that they're not valid as lynchvotes; there's a difference between pressuring someone with fluff to get a solid read, and just lynching them with fluff. It can also be hard to tell which is which, since, after all, pressure isn't very effective when it's known to just be bluster.
So you if you had been paying attention to my post better instead of lurking around being a lazy IC you'd have cautioned against it and/or questioned me on it later? I'm curious what was so awful about it other than the lack of evidence backing it up. I saw it as a valid pressure tactic. Granted I didn't follow up on it right away, but it also didn't even make Deathsword blink right away. It wasn't until he mentioned it that it became a discussed issue and at that point became a point to question him on, working as a pressure application as intended. (Curious about this from your player standpoint and your IC standpoint incidentally)
Flying Dice:Summary of Chaos Armor's responses thusfar:
Summary of Flying Dice's posts so far this day.
1. Accused me of starting a bandwagon and voted me. This vote, as I stated above, was going to be a vote that ended in me being lynched until the day was extended. Asked Theodolus a question.
2. Unvoted me, Chaos Armor, then in his defense he explained his reasons for voting me. Never explained why he unvoted me in that post.
3. He claimed to have removed his vote because he wasn't sure if I was just newbie town or scum. Then at the end of the post he voted me again and tried to draw attention from himself by reminding everyone that the IC's could be scum.
4. Tried to explain away the reasons for unvoting me then revoting me.
In summary:
Blah, blah, blah I'm trying to appear active by throwing one or two questions at other players then not following up, defending myself, and attacking Chaos Armor for nonsensical reasons.
In post three you posted,Looking back, you did mention that you were having internet problems (though you still managed to make several votes)What do you mean by "still managed to make several votes"?
For two, what are your reasons for voting me now, scum? The last I checked they seemed to consist mostly of "He started a bandwagon".
I've got my suspicions, but I would like a little more data. Can't exactly afford mistakes at this point, and I'd hate to be the guy that builds a compelling case on an innocent person.
I believe borno was also a starter who dropped due to lack of time and was replaced by TiruinYup! I'm his rep.
Seriously? Damn. I'll have to do a full reread now, as my theory was quite neatly shot down.
Shakerag: I'd love to know what you were thinking when:I am wrinkling my brow at you, good sir, because I'm not sure what you're getting at. I claimed you and Deathsword were scumbuddies, Deathsword flipped town, ergo you two can't be scumbuddies. I thought that was obvious.Seriously? Damn. I'll have to do a full reread now, as my theory was quite neatly shot down.
Flying Dice
What do you think of IronyOwl turning up Cop? You were hitting the 'Suspect the ICs' drum for a bit (#212, #201) and now one of them turns up dead and town. Does that change your perceptions at all?
Seriously? Damn.
Shit.
Flying Dice
What do you think of IronyOwl turning up Cop? You were hitting the 'Suspect the ICs' drum for a bit (#212, #201) and now one of them turns up dead and town. Does that change your perceptions at all?
Flying Dice
What do you think of IronyOwl turning up Cop? You were hitting the 'Suspect the ICs' drum for a bit (#212, #201) and now one of them turns up dead and town. Does that change your perceptions at all?
My perceptions? Yes, obviously, because I have more information. Though it was less the "Suspect the ICs' drum and more the 'Suspect Everyone, Regardless of Who They Are' drum. Anyhow I don't particularly regret doing so, though the story might be slightly different if it had lead to a mislynch. Possibly because the BMXXXIII IC-scumteam was still very fresh in my mind and I didn't want to let anyone be ignored. I'm not going to spread WIFOM by speculating on the reasons (if any) for the scum NKing IronyOwl, if that was what you were pushing for.
Tiruin: What makes Shake's statement so suspicious, I'm curious? I don't doubt that I've posted something similar in the past; new information on alignments often does shoot hypotheses full of holes, after all.
Note that Shakerag was MIA on vacation (I think it was vacation) until about page 7, so I didn't dig too much before that. To be honest, there's not a lot to go on D1 period. Both Flying and Shake manage to avoid suspicion the first day. There was exactly one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3350774#msg3350774) question between them, and it was a softball question at that. It's D1 though, so I really didn't expect much. It is interesting how they didn't interact at all, though.This is equal parts bullshit and related to the association fallacy. Two people are largely ignored in RVS (not unusual) and don't interact with each other much, therefore they are scumbuddies? The first is hardly something I could control, unless you suspect that everyone in the game except yourself is a sockpuppet. The second is coincidental (there were several people I hardly interacted with in RVS)--indeed, there are several that I still haven't interacted with, yourself included. So by that logic, you and I are also scumbuddies because we (well, I and your predecessor) didn't interact much. I know I'm not scum, so that alone puts a hole in this bit of fluff pretending to be a sound argument.
D2 is a little different story. They each come out guns (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.150) blazing (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3387147#msg3387147). They each pick out their respective target, and start laying into them (FD with a little more vigor). Even when Shake asks FD a question, he manages to include a jab at Deathsword (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3388700#msg3388700).More of the same bullshit, with an added side of Too-Town fallacy. I'm scum because I scumhunt someone hard? As for the last, see the above. You're inventing relationships out of whole cloth based entirely on the fact that I'm not pressuring Shakerag heavily and haven't had too much interaction with him. Again, this logic is flawed, as by it virtually anyone in this game could be scumbuddies with anyone else; most of us have only really gone after one or two people, leaving fairly little pressure for others. To me, this says that you don't care about building a real case and just want to throw together something that might push us into a mislynch.
I will admit that Deathsword did a very admirable job of digging his own grave. But they each have an almost single-minded focus on their target of choice. I also like how most of their questions to each other appear to be asked only to give a way to backpedal, or to strengthen one of their cases.
FD's characterization of himself taking fire here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3396371#msg3396371) while he has a whole one vote doesn't help him either (and thanks for pointing it out Tir, I almost missed it). It's scum being over-sensitive to attention.
I didn't say anything about a "full assault"; my implication was more akin to a few stray shots zipping by overhead. I offered a more extensive explanation of my reasoning and thought process because my responses were being largely ignored when I responded with the bare minimum or with nothing but the end of my train of thought. Any reason why you're cherrypicking the least-relevant portions of my posts and misinterpreting metaphorical statements instead of scumhunting?and I honestly don't need to change a single word.
And at the start of D3, once the Cop got shot?And folks, this is why so many townies tend to lurk through MLYO/LYLO: Because someone will invariably attack them for being town or being honest. So Hapah, were you not upset that the cop got NKed, you scumbag?Quote from: ShakeragSeriously? Damn.Quote from: Flying DiceShit.
Yeah, I can feel the sincerity.
D3 opens with FD throwing another broadside at Chaos, and then Theo asks this question:Honestly, I didn't think it was that hard to understand. Here, I'll dumb it down:Quote from: TheodolusFlying Dice
What do you think of IronyOwl turning up Cop? You were hitting the 'Suspect the ICs' drum for a bit (#212, #201) and now one of them turns up dead and town. Does that change your perceptions at all?
At which FD makes the biggest hedge post I've ever seen, AND tries to diffuse Tir's suspicion of Shake in one go.Flying DiceMy perceptions? Yes, obviously, because I have more information. Though it was less the "Suspect the ICs' drum and more the 'Suspect Everyone, Regardless of Who They Are' drum. Anyhow I don't particularly regret doing so, though the story might be slightly different if it had lead to a mislynch. Possibly because the BMXXXIII IC-scumteam was still very fresh in my mind and I didn't want to let anyone be ignored. I'm not going to spread WIFOM by speculating on the reasons (if any) for the scum NKing IronyOwl, if that was what you were pushing for.
What do you think of IronyOwl turning up Cop? You were hitting the 'Suspect the ICs' drum for a bit (#212, #201) and now one of them turns up dead and town. Does that change your perceptions at all?
FD\TiruinWhy do you mix up our names?
Sorry about that, got my names mixed up...
What I'm getting at, was your statement and theorem on me here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3403537#msg3403537). I'm wondering how you even got to this conclusion logically, I'm curious as to why my question here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3403760#msg3403760) was not acknowledged.Shakerag: I'd love to know what you were thinking when:I am wrinkling my brow at you, good sir, because I'm not sure what you're getting at. I claimed you and Deathsword were scumbuddies, Deathsword flipped town, ergo you two can't be scumbuddies. I thought that was obvious.Seriously? Damn. I'll have to do a full reread now, as my theory was quite neatly shot down.
Seriously? Damn. I'll have to do a full reread now, as my theory was quite neatly shot down.as the first statement of your post.
Chaos Armor: Not going to respond now that my argument is stated too concisely for you to ignore it and pick at meaningless fluff?I'm sorry I have a life and have been digging potatoes, washing them, getting them ready to sell, and selling them.
Summary of Chaos Armor's responses thusfar:
1. Blah blah I don't want to actually address his point so I'll just handwave it.
2. Hey look at all this fluff I can try and make a fake case out of.
3. Bother doing anything beyond saying "Your arguments are invalid but mine aren't"? Hah!
We can all do that, mate.
How about this:
You vote BMC for what (admittedly, much more so in hindsight) was a null tell because it could have been panicked newtown just as easily as it could have been panicked scum.
You then make almost no further pressure on him (and much of that is the same sort of crap you're responding to me with; "You are wrong, answer my questions the way I want you to!") and seem perfectly content to leave your vote on him until he is eventually mislynched.
Not only do you not investigate him to any significant degree, you also avoid pressuring ANYONE else until I start pushing you and you get defensive.
So yes, I think it could be argued that you started the bandwagon on BMC in that you made a vote which (while initially valid) went practically unsupported.
On top of that, you appear to have been sidelining for much of the game, avoiding drawing anyone's attention
and instantly turning on the one person (myself) who did start seriously pressuring you about your negligent vote.
Chaos Armor
You have to realize that with both BMC and now Deathsword turning up town that it would cast a lot of suspicion on you. I'm curious who your top two suspicions are and why.
Flying Dice:Summary of Chaos Armor's responses thusfar:
1. Blah blah I don't want to actually address his point so I'll just handwave it.
What point? I guess I missed it because of this fluff.
2. Hey look at all this fluff I can try and make a fake case out of.
I don't know why you consider anything besides your own cases fake or fluff. Is it because you don't have any counter arguments?
3. Bother doing anything beyond saying "Your arguments are invalid but mine aren't"? Hah!
Hypocrite. You just stated that all of my arguments were fluff or rather, invalid. You did the same thing to Hapah too. In fact, that's most of what you have done. Call other people's arguments fluff, not bothering to actually answer. You are doing the exact same thing that you accused me of doing, hand waving it away.
We can all do that, mate.
How about this:
You vote BMC for what (admittedly, much more so in hindsight) was a null tell because it could have been panicked newtown just as easily as it could have been panicked scum.
It was my RVS vote. Simple as that. You seem to ignore that every time I tell inform you.You then make almost no further pressure on him (and much of that is the same sort of crap you're responding to me with; "You are wrong, answer my questions the way I want you to!") and seem perfectly content to leave your vote on him until he is eventually mislynched.Not only do you not investigate him to any significant degree, you also avoid pressuring ANYONE else until I start pushing you and you get defensive.
In your opinion I didn't investigate him to any significant degree, but to me I did. I had enough information for me to think him as scum and keep my vote on him. In retrospect I probably should have asked more questions myself.
Actually, I was going to attack you D2. You appeared scummy enough to warrant pressure at the end of D1 so I decided to pressure you at the start of D2. Guess what results my pressure came up with, scum?
Maybe that was poor wording, but that was how I saw it. Your vote was the start of BMC's downhill ride, and it was downright irresponsible to not bother looking for reasons to keep your vote where it was. You were content to have your vote on someone, and you were happy to have a lynch, as long as it wasn't you. You didn't act like you cared who was lynched, and you didn't act like you were suspicious of me at all until I pressured you. All of that adds up to one thing in my eyes, scum.So yes, I think it could be argued that you started the bandwagon on BMC in that you made a vote which (while initially valid) went practically unsupported.
You're saying that I started a bandwagon and then sidelined. Yet the IC definition of starting a bandwagon is egging other players to start voting for that player. How did I start a bandwagon and sideline? bandwagon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3394613#msg3394613).
Bull. Shit. I've never been getting on you for lack of posts, I've been getting on you for lack of content. If I could only post once every few days, I'd cram as much content into it as I could. You were making posts with minimal investigation and content; in other words, you were trying to avoid saying anything incriminating while still looking like you were active in the game. Aka sidelining/active lurking.On top of that, you appear to have been sidelining for much of the game, avoiding drawing anyone's attention
How many times do I have to explain that I haven't been able to post as often as I would like because of RL and my internet. Also, I'm pretty sure I have been drawing attention. Considering I was the second choice for a lynch yesterday and one reason was because I had been "sidelining".and instantly turning on the one person (myself) who did start seriously pressuring you about your negligent vote.
As I stated earlier, I had planned on pressuring you and you coincidentally attacked me.
3. Bother doing anything beyond saying "Your arguments are invalid but mine aren't"? Hah!
Hypocrite. You just stated that all of my arguments were fluff or rather, invalid. You did the same thing to Hapah too. In fact, that's most of what you have done. Call other people's arguments fluff, not bothering to actually answer. You are doing the exact same thing that you accused me of doing, hand waving it away.
So in other words, you're saying I'm scum for doing the exact same thing you are? Why, by that logic, we must be scumbuddies and you're trying to bus me. ::)
[...]Maybe that was poor wording, but that was how I saw it. Your vote was the start of BMC's downhill ride, and it was downright irresponsible to not bother looking for reasons to keep your vote where it was. You were content to have your vote on someone, and you were happy to have a lynch, as long as it wasn't you. You didn't act like you cared who was lynched, and you didn't act like you were suspicious of me at all until I pressured you. All of that adds up to one thing in my eyes, scum.So yes, I think it could be argued that you started the bandwagon on BMC in that you made a vote which (while initially valid) went practically unsupported.
You're saying that I started a bandwagon and then sidelined. Yet the IC definition of starting a bandwagon is egging other players to start voting for that player. How did I start a bandwagon and sideline? bandwagon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3394613#msg3394613).
On the sixth, does this pertain to what he did on D1, or on the proceeding days? What do you see in following the crowd with votes that makes that person scummy? He stated evidence on why he believed people were scum (though a bit frantic, I guess), but reasons were present.
Hapah:
I'm mildly suspicious of everyone, although Theodolus seems town and Flying Dice is definitely scum.
Reasons for Flying Dice being scum:
1. Accusing me of starting a bandwagon. Which isn't possible.
2. Failing to recognize that I didn't vote BMC for any reason at first. He was my RVS vote.
3. Stating that anything anyone says about him is "fluff".
4. Over sensitivity to being pressured. He becomes angry cornered when pressured.
5. Falsely accusing me on many occasions.
6. Generally following the crowd with his votes.
Flying DiceOn FD: Why ask what a person thinks of a person's roleflip?
What do you think of IronyOwl turning up Cop? You were hitting the 'Suspect the ICs' drum for a bit (#212, #201) and now one of them turns up dead and town. Does that change your perceptions at all?
Chaos Armor
You have to realize that with both BMC and now Deathsword turning up town that it would cast a lot of suspicion on you. I'm curious who your top two suspicions are and why.
Tir: You've got a vote on Shake and a FoS on FD. Do you have reservations about lynching FD, or do you simply believe that Shake is the better lynch? Do you have any questions?Shake isn't replying.
TheodolusFlying DiceOn FD: Why ask what a person thinks of a person's roleflip?
What do you think of IronyOwl turning up Cop? You were hitting the 'Suspect the ICs' drum for a bit (#212, #201) and now one of them turns up dead and town. Does that change your perceptions at all?
Chaos Armor
You have to realize that with both BMC and now Deathsword turning up town that it would cast a lot of suspicion on you. I'm curious who your top two suspicions are and why.
On CA: Why tell him this, then ask him for his suspicions? How does both BMC and Deathy cast a lot of suspicion on CA?
Also, if that casts a lot of suspicion on him, why aren't you voting anyone?
ShakeragDeathsword turning up town makes me have to get a fresh read on Tiruin, so I'd say that his alignment in my mind changed to "undetermined". That, of course, may change as I re-read his posts.
I'm curious what your feelings on Tiruin are now. Do you still feel like he's scum due to your prior stated reasoning, or did Deathsword turning up town make you change your mind on his alignment?
Also, I like how you only quote part of my D3 opener, as I was referring to Deathsword being town, not IO being a cop.Maybe, maybe. It still smells forced to me.
Flying Dice: I'm going to address your points by without quoting that whole mess, to avoid a huge wall-o-text. If you think I've done wrong (posts out of context, misquotes, etc) then call me on it. Can't promise I'll be able to post a lot, but I'll see if I can address them, at least.
- It was really just a precursor to my argument. I didn't want people to think I'd ignored D1 entirely, but there's wasn't much of interest going on. Way to make it seem like a big deal, though.
- I never said you were Too-Town, quit putting words in my mouth. You and Shake each picked out a target, and attacked your target. You're just a little more vocal about it. You also mis-characterized the relationship between you and Shake. It's not that you didn't interact (because you certainly did), it's the fact that your interactions only bolstered each others cases. Damn near every post between you two was either a lead-in to pouring more fuel on the fire or gave you an avenue to back away from a controversial statement.
- See above. Damn near every interaction between you and Shake has been to bolster each other's cases.
- I think Tir's comment hit the mark, despite what you say. Did you know you use more quantifying/waffling words (I don't part when you get nervous?
- Oh fun, an OMGUS. Thanks. And of course I'm bummed that the Cop is dead, but I don't have to make an effort to fake it. I thought it was funny that you and Shake (and only you and Shake) posted questions like that. And before you shoot back, this isn't some grand lynchpin of my case like I'm sure you'd make it out to be. It was an interesting (to me) note that got exactly one sentence.
- Hey, thanks for breaking it down, it's appreciated. I'll do the same: What are your thoughts on Shakerag? Considering you've written a small novel in BM terms since my post and haven't so much as glanced at him sideways, y'know, I'm curious.
Flying Dice.
Hrrrrm, wait. Could you clarify how you concluded these?3. Bother doing anything beyond saying "Your arguments are invalid but mine aren't"? Hah!
Hypocrite. You just stated that all of my arguments were fluff or rather, invalid. You did the same thing to Hapah too. In fact, that's most of what you have done. Call other people's arguments fluff, not bothering to actually answer. You are doing the exact same thing that you accused me of doing, hand waving it away.
So in other words, you're saying I'm scum for doing the exact same thing you are? Why, by that logic, we must be scumbuddies and you're trying to bus me. ::)
[...]Maybe that was poor wording, but that was how I saw it. Your vote was the start of BMC's downhill ride, and it was downright irresponsible to not bother looking for reasons to keep your vote where it was. You were content to have your vote on someone, and you were happy to have a lynch, as long as it wasn't you. You didn't act like you cared who was lynched, and you didn't act like you were suspicious of me at all until I pressured you. All of that adds up to one thing in my eyes, scum.So yes, I think it could be argued that you started the bandwagon on BMC in that you made a vote which (while initially valid) went practically unsupported.
You're saying that I started a bandwagon and then sidelined. Yet the IC definition of starting a bandwagon is egging other players to start voting for that player. How did I start a bandwagon and sideline? bandwagon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3394613#msg3394613).
On the second, you do know that BMC's downhill ride was based on how he reacted, yes? BMC did act scummy, but in my honest opinion, all I could see from CA was that he did lack time to post, and (well, for me) posts in Mafia take time to organize due to analysis and observation.
What makes you believe that CA is content to have his vote on someone and therefore happy to have a lynch in that method?
What is your stance on a mislynch?
And agreed on the musing: Let's not go swimming in the wine.It would be rather nice if we could all refrain from making arguments based on WIFOM, wouldn't it?
My thoughts on Shakerag, along with a few other things: He honestly hasn't made a very big impression on me this game, likely in part because a lot of his posts have been IC-advice. If I had to rate him in terms of suspicion, he'd probably be slightly above Theo.So the fact that he's made very few content posts (since I'm not certain that a post could be in IC-brackets and related to the game at the same time) doesn't bother you? I'll have to reread his posts (can LurkerTracker just give me the posts from one person?), but this is the impression I'm getting from you.
Hapah: Pretty much on your first content post, you laid into me. I don't think I've seen any suspicions of yours beyond this scumteam assumption (which, incidentally, is incredibly unwise in games where we don't have a PR with which to make absolute determinations of alignment/truth). Does anyone else pop up on your radar at all? What do you think about CA's statement that I am scummy for doing the same thing that he is?I don't think it's unwise at this point, considering we've got to go 2 for 2 on lynches to win (Doc might give us another day, but I'm not counting on it). I'll examine new evidence after the first flip, of course, but there's not much margin for error here. As for suspicions:
Tiruin, Theodolus, Hapah, Shakerag: Do you see the arguments I'm making against CA? I'm afraid I might not have been as clear in text as I was in my mind. I don't care if you agree with it or not, I'm just curious to see if anyone else can understand the train of thought I followed to my conclusions.Bulletpoints and/or post numbers would be appreciated. At this point it looks like I'm basically committed to a full reread tonight anyway, but lists of the major points/"aha!" moments (with post numbers, if possible) would be nice to make sure I don't miss anything central to your case.
Cute.Quote from: HapahAnd agreed on the musing: Let's not go swimming in the wine.It would be rather nice if we could all refrain from making arguments based on WIFOM, wouldn't it?
(can LurkerTracker just give me the posts from one person?)Not that I'm aware of, but it lists them out by person anyway, so a bit of clutter is the only difference.
My thoughts on Shakerag, along with a few other things: He honestly hasn't made a very big impression on me this game, likely in part because a lot of his posts have been IC-advice. If I had to rate him in terms of suspicion, he'd probably be slightly above Theo.So the fact that he's made very few content posts (since I'm not certain that a post could be in IC-brackets and related to the game at the same time) doesn't bother you? I'll have to reread his posts (can LurkerTracker just give me the posts from one person?), but this is the impression I'm getting from you.
Hapah: Pretty much on your first content post, you laid into me. I don't think I've seen any suspicions of yours beyond this scumteam assumption (which, incidentally, is incredibly unwise in games where we don't have a PR with which to make absolute determinations of alignment/truth). Does anyone else pop up on your radar at all? What do you think about CA's statement that I am scummy for doing the same thing that he is?I don't think it's unwise at this point, considering we've got to go 2 for 2 on lynches to win (Doc might give us another day, but I'm not counting on it). I'll examine new evidence after the first flip, of course, but there's not much margin for error here. As for suspicions:
Tiruin, Theodolus, Hapah, Shakerag: Do you see the arguments I'm making against CA? I'm afraid I might not have been as clear in text as I was in my mind. I don't care if you agree with it or not, I'm just curious to see if anyone else can understand the train of thought I followed to my conclusions.Bulletpoints and/or post numbers would be appreciated. At this point it looks like I'm basically committed to a full reread tonight anyway, but lists of the major points/"aha!" moments (with post numbers, if possible) would be nice to make sure I don't miss anything central to your case. I still think your case CA is flimsy and he is just a new-town fighting back as best he can, with the limited time he has. I saw nothing to change my opinion on this, but if you can put up a post list and/or bullets I'd be happy to review them.
Cute.Quote from: HapahAnd agreed on the musing: Let's not go swimming in the wine.It would be rather nice if we could all refrain from making arguments based on WIFOM, wouldn't it?
Tiruin, Theodolus, Hapah, Shakerag: Do you see the arguments I'm making against CA? I'm afraid I might not have been as clear in text as I was in my mind. I don't care if you agree with it or not, I'm just curious to see if anyone else can understand the train of thought I followed to my conclusions.I can follow it. I don't necessarily agree, but I follow it.
Shakerag: I honestly haven't noticed either of us supporting the other; do you think there is solid reasoning behind Hapah's argument? I'm more interested in your answer as an IC for future reference.
More later, but I suppose to answer Hapah from early D2:
Flying Dice
and one of either Theo or Tiruin.
I'll expound upon that later today.
Tiruin: I'm getting a headache trying to parse all of your questions to me. I'll try to state my line of thinking here as clearly as possible. Borno name-dropped Deathsword D1 in part of a response to a question of mine. It didn't seem to make sense why he would have mentioned DS at that point. To me, that seemed like a newscum slip where you have your partner's name in your head and it pops out where it wouldn't seem to make sense to.
abculatter_2 was (in my opinion, were I scum) a prime mislynch target because of his non-serious behavior. Those kinds of people, in my experience, are the ones that are the easiest to get (mis)lynched. So, suspecting you and DS to begin with, then seeing you vote abc, and then DS switch to abc ... it looked like coordinated behavior to me, especially since you called DS on his bullshit handling of questioning/voting abc without pressuring him too hard about it. In my mind, if you and DS weren't scumbuddies, then you would have laid into him hard when he pulled the crap he did D2.
And, to clarify, softballing to me is when you need to question/pressure someone (because otherwise it would look scummy of you to not do so) but you only do enough to keep up appearances. You're not trying to get the person to crack and/or you're not trying to call much attention to them.
Also, I'm not saying you're town because DS flipped town. I'm not sure where you got that idea from.
If I missed anything specific, fire it at me again.
[musing]
I'm noting that IronyOwl stated that his top suspicion at the end of D1 was Chaos Armor. IronyOwl was a cop. IronyOwl did not claim inspect results D2. I want to believe IO inspected CA N1 and got a town result, but I also realize it's too easy to WIFOM myself about this as well.
[/musing]
More later, but I suppose to answer Hapah from early D2:
Flying Dice
and one of either Theo or Tiruin.
I'll expound upon that later today.
Tiruin: Why do I mention you in my post to Deathsword? Because of this timeline:
-D2 Starts
-Ds votes CA, suspects abc but says abc hasn't done anything scummy
-Tiruin votes abc (which, if I was scum, would be my #1 mislynch pick for D2)
-Tiruin pokes Ds to question abc
-Ds can't think of questions for abc, FoSes abc, then copies your question to abc
-Tiruin totally softballs Ds on the abc topic
-Ds now votes abc (again, ripe mislynch target) with a question I said not to ask
Note that this entire time abculatter_2 never made a post.
So Deathsword starts off D2 voting the wrong guy, Tiruin pops in scumchat and tells Deathsword to vote the easy lynch guy (abc), and Deathsword bumblefucks his way over to voting him.
I don't understand what exactly you're asking about the "inertiawagon thing". (As an aside, was this term thrown around before this game? I don't really remember seeing it before, but I kind of like it anyway.)
borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy. What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player? What would you do then?Erm, I suppose you mean this hypothetically?
I guess I wouldn't be confident in defending against an IC, but I guess I could handle an aggressive player. I see you are referring to my post. Why are you jumping to conclusions that I am in a scumteam with deathsword? I thought that was a bad thing to do so early in the game.
Tir: Day ends tomorrow, ~26 hours from now. Does anyone else want an extend?Thanks you. :D
And it's cool Tir; I'll dig and find them. The post number thing was mostly directed at FD, since I didn't want to skim over the meat of his argument. I don't expect them on every post.
Tiruin: You've voted one of the current six and FoSed two today; would you mind listing your suspicions (or lack thereof) on everyone still alive, and reasons for them?Shakerag - My vote stays on him because, while he did post his reasoning on borno's idea and Deathy's 'link', as of the current day all his suspicion on me (seems to, lack of vote?) have dropped due to Deathy's flip. I'm still curious as to why that happened, Shake, as stated by your opening post for this day.
Unfortunately, what this also means is that now I have a lack of solid suspicions. Which is a horrible thing to have on MYLO. I have a couple sneaking suspicions but I need to go back over the last couple days before I can say anything for certain. I'll be looking over everything again as I get time today and will try to have something a bit more extensive later today.>Who exactly do you suspect, and why do you only have two people on your list (judging by context)?
For now, I've looked over my initial suspicions of CA and argument against him from a detached perspective, and there are some problems with it that are too serious to ignore. Honestly, at this point I don't see anyone I think is suspicious enough to risk losing via mislynch. For the moment, Unvote. I'll give it as much thought as I can spare, but I won't be home/near a computer or browser-capable phone until late Thursday afternoon. I'll hopefully have collected most of my thoughts by then. Again, apologies about this, but I'm not in a position where my schedule is negotiable.So are you talking about yourself here in this 'mislynch'? Unvote, why?
Going back and reading through D2, I can't help but notice that IronyOwl was making a large point about questioning everyone about thier cases on Chaos Armor. The more I look at it, the more I see cop-like behavior of trying to get people away from someone who inspected as town. Flying Dice is awfully keen on seeing Chaos Armor lynched, and for reasons that feel a bit shaky to me. The unvoting/voting thing back on D2 is a bit queer when I look at it in more detail now (and am not intently focused on a different player), and I can't get behind the "CA started a bandwagon" argument at all.Shakerag
abc's replacement: Could you give your opinion on why you think abc acted like such?Honestly, I only gave Fiskav and abc's posts a quick scan. Not really any content from either, and no point trying to pick apart the posts from the person/people you are replacing, since you know their alignment. I think abc didn't realize Mafia Is Serious Business, and once he realized the commitment he half-assed it before flaking out. But, really no clue.
Come to think of it: Everyone: As it is MYLO, and we've gleaned much information today, what about a no-lynch for now. Tomorrow, we can resume the pace (if or if not there is a kill). Now I'm not against FD's lynch today, but something isn't right with the current state of affairs and on the vote patterns and I'm not having that much of a scum-feel on him.So Tiruin, knowing that this is MYLO, which means a mislynch equals a town loss, says he's not against FD's lynch, but at the same time isn't getting much of a scum-feel on him. That's a pretty wishy-washy attitude to be having when the outcome of the game is on the line. I like how he's trying to toss out the idea of a no-lynch suddenly as well. Interesting that the only person who bites on the idea is Flying Dice ...
Well, unless we can still Extend, that is.
Mod: Can we get a prod on CA?
(Woo!)
[...]
Theo: Hmm...What were you trying to say?
My top 2 scumpicks are FD and Shake. At the moment, I think Shake is just bussing FD. I'm more confident that FD is scum than Shake.
I think a bus is a very real possibility. And I think a FD-Tir or a FD-you team are possible, but not as likely as a FD-Shake team.
However. If I can't get you onboard for a FD lynch, I would consider a Shake lynch as a goodwill gesture. I think he's scum at the moment, but I'm less certain about him than I am about FD. It's worth nothing that if I just held the course, FD would get lynched. But I'd rather work with you, if possible.
Why do you think a bus at this point is unlikely?
Why do you speak of this like a casual gesture? Why are you less certain about him than FD? You do state your suspicions, but the lacking object is on the why.Well sure, but it cuts both ways. If Shake doesn't flip scum then we're well and truly screwed too.
And you've got to understand where I'm coming from too. I think you're town, but I REALLY think FD is scum. And considering that you were going along with his argument until it got shot full of holes, I have to be cautious.
Hopefully it will be a moot point and they will both flip scum. It just doesn't look like either of us has the ability to change the others decision and, for better or worse, I'm on the side with the majority at the moment.
At least if FD does flip town you'll be able to go I told you so, lol.
Gods I hate shuffling votes right before the day closes.
[...]If I was scum, I'd be pushing for a no-lynch from the start of MYLO.And what would make that particularly scummy?
[...]Chaos Armor, as I've stated previously, I feel is pretty likely to be town.When previously? You didn't even question him at all during D3, until...now.
As for why I thought you and Theo were Town at end of D3: I thought your actions were newtown (no offense) trying to defend himself with limited time. This, combined with the fact that the player I most suspected of being scum had been tunneling you since his opening post D2, made me think you are town (and I definitely think you're Town now, post-FD flip. I can't see any way that you would be his scumbuddy that makes any real sense). [@CA]Musing on this thought, why aren't you putting the idea of a planned bus right ahead of time into the factor, and how doesn't it [in general] make sense?
For the third, it's related to above: I viewed a FD-Shake team as most likely, but FD-you or FD-Theo certainly didn't seem impossible. If Theo had some major reservations about lynching FD I wanted to hear them and maybe switch my vote accordingly, but they never shaped up (amounted to "I think FD is scum, but I think Shake is scummier". Nothing concrete).[...]So on the time of dusk, why did you be all friendly (or sound very much like it) to Theo, then?
It'd be one hell of a bus, considering FD and CA more or less only attacked each other for all of D2, and for all of D3 until we made FD back off of his argument. The tone feels right (FD takes the same tone with CA that he took with me). I just can't see D2 opening and the scum's first thought being "Alright, we didn't get a NK. Let's bus each other!".As for why I thought you and Theo were Town at end of D3: I thought your actions were newtown (no offense) trying to defend himself with limited time. This, combined with the fact that the player I most suspected of being scum had been tunneling you since his opening post D2, made me think you are town (and I definitely think you're Town now, post-FD flip. I can't see any way that you would be his scumbuddy that makes any real sense). [@CA]Musing on this thought, why aren't you putting the idea of a planned bus right ahead of time into the factor, and how doesn't it [in general] make sense?
Can we have an extend until next Wednesday?
First off, could everyone please explain their reasons for voting whoever you are voting. If you have already stated them then please quote them or direct me to where you stated them. I'm having trouble discerning everyone's reasoning for their votes and I would like them clarified.
CA: So does everybody mean you look at everyone with equal suspicion?
For my vote: The short version is, I am voting Shakerag because I perceived his interactions with FD to be complimentary and, therefore, scummy.
Tiruin:First, I am waiting for Shakerag's post. Not lurking.
You have been posting and active for days since your last post in this Mafia game. What do you have to say for your active lurking?
I have varying degrees of suspicion for everyone. But my list of suspicions has You and Hapah in first and Shakerag in second.
Could you state why it is not enough to vote someone on? He posted the evidence in those quotes back there.For my vote: The short version is, I am voting Shakerag because I perceived his interactions with FD to be complimentary and, therefore, scummy.
In my opinion that is not enough to vote someone on. Do you have more evidence?
*sigh*
Tiruin:First, I am waiting for Shakerag's post. Not lurking.
You have been posting and active for days since your last post in this Mafia game. What do you have to say for your active lurking?
I have varying degrees of suspicion for everyone. But my list of suspicions has You and Hapah in first and Shakerag in second.
Second, could you state...why? You just tied the vote and did an extend.
Could you state why it is not enough to vote someone on? He posted the evidence in those quotes back there.For my vote: The short version is, I am voting Shakerag because I perceived his interactions with FD to be complimentary and, therefore, scummy.
In my opinion that is not enough to vote someone on. Do you have more evidence?
Why did you tie the vote, and why do you believe two people are more suspicious than one on MYLO?
Well, if we're not going to end day early, I'll need an extend for time to reply to everything.
What do/did you think of my case on FD?It was alright, all things considered. It's really hard to fight someone when you have limited time and they have lots. That could be why FD targeted you initially, but who knows? Scumchat might have something after the game's over.
=snip=You state many ideas about the lynch, and cyclic thinking yet you don't even say why you think anything about why or what your beliefs are or on why you aren't convinced or not.
[...]I would rather have a no lynch then lynch someone I don't see all that scummy. Neither You or Hapah have convinced me that Shakerag is scum.
The extend was put in place because I'd rather see the lynch of a scum than a no lynch.
And as I've stated before I'm not convinced that Shakerag is scum and therefore not ready to lynch him.You mean:
I have varying degrees of suspicion for everyone. But my list of suspicions has You and Hapah in first and Shakerag in second.?
Could you state why it is not enough to vote someone on? He posted the evidence in those quotes back there.For my vote: The short version is, I am voting Shakerag because I perceived his interactions with FD to be complimentary and, therefore, scummy.
In my opinion that is not enough to vote someone on. Do you have more evidence?
Why did you tie the vote, and why do you believe two people are more suspicious than one on MYLO?
I just don't believe that it is enough for a lynch that could possible end in a scum victory. Which/what quotes? I see evidence in a spoiler but not quotes.
I've already stated why I tied the vote.
It's not so much that I find two people suspicious it's that I find two people more suspicious than the other guy.
Why are you so eager to lynch?
This is MYLO and ending in a no lynch can be a good tactic. Best case scenario is that we lynch scum today. Second best is we don't lynch today and doctor saves player from NK. Third best is we don't lynch and there is a NK. Fourth, being the second worst, is when we mislynch and doctor saves player from NK. Fifth, the worst, we mislynch and there is a NK. That means a scum victory.You know, assuming there is a doctor, actually. This whole thing contradicts itself.
I'm not certain that I'll be able to post tomorrow (or feel like it, for that matter), due to some heavy RL stuff going on. I still haven't seen a convincing reason to move my vote off Shake, so it will stay there.
Also, since your case on me basically boils down to complementary behavior between FD and myself, I'd like to direct you toward my case on Deathsword and the complementary behavior I saw between him and Tiruin. And we know how that turned out. Amusingly, Tiruin was voting Deathsword at the end of the day there, which, at the time, I was thinking it looked like he was bussing his scumbuddy as well.And you don't have any thoughts on this?
[Do I even need to give the usual LYLO speech?]Nah. Can if you want to, I guess, for those reading along.
I still think it's you, Shake. I know it's been a long game, but lay out all your proof and arguments on Tir one last time. I believe I've disagreed with most of them so far, but I'll take another look.Why I think it's Tiruin. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3458532#msg3458532)
Chaos Armor: I'm voting Tiruin due to process of elimination. I outlined that I believe you're town here, and that Hapah is town here. Therefore, that leaves Tiruin as scum.Cuts both ways, I believe. Tir could claim the same, couldn't he?
Also, since your case on me basically boils down to complementary behavior between FD and myself, I'd like to direct you toward my case on Deathsword and the complementary behavior I saw between him and Tiruin. And we know how that turned out. Amusingly, Tiruin was voting Deathsword at the end of the day there, which, at the time, I was thinking it looked like he was bussing his scumbuddy as well.But I have already stated that I do not believe they are the same.
Humor me this: If I'm really the last scum left, what do you think my reasoning would be for killing CA?That's WIFOM. "They killed CA, so they must want Shake to die. But I know that they know that I know that they know...". You should (or do) know that.
Additionally, if you think your case on me is "far from perfect", then why aren't you trying to reinforce that case at all? Or look more closely at Tiruin?Trust me, I did look at Tiruin. But I can't find anything to lynch him on. I'm guessing you can't find anything compelling either, or you'd have brought it up. As far as I can tell, your evidence boils down to "it has to be him because everyone else is town" and his interactions with DS (where I disagree with your assessment). My case on you isn't perfect, but my case on him is damn near nonexistent.
PFPThe time of the year where monsoons and low pressure areas come? Had to be now, with extra electrical problems.
Will manage a post tonight, also explaining why I was gone for ax extra ~12 hours from my last post :/
=snip=Addressing by marker, for better formatting. Next post covers recent events.
Why I think it's Tiruin. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3458532#msg3458532)
[Do I even need to give the usual LYLO speech?]Could you clarify on the shenanigans thing? It takes two to approve, but the shorten & note, I don't get.
Oppose extend
Oppose shorten - to avoid shenanigans.
CA dying and this being LYLO doesn't change that I think Tiruin is scum. What about you two?
Humor me this: If I'm really the last scum left, what do you think my reasoning would be for killing CA? Additionally, if you think your case on me is "far from perfect", then why aren't you trying to reinforce that case at all? Or look more closely at Tiruin?Forgive me for asking (and by this I mean IC mode mostly), what is usually meant by people when they say Humor me this? Sounds like an expression to 'just know something in contradiction of a matter' for me.
Then I don't think theres anything more that can really be productive here right now.In before day end, this happens. Why can't there be anything productive right then? CA did state that he extended and voted to let questions flow.
Plus, I'd really hope that CA would have said that he saved you (or me, or Tir) before the last night.Actually, that's a terrible idea. Say he did save me. CA claims. We have, essentially, two confirmed town (scum counter-claim aside). But there's still two unknowns. If CA and I were to not lynch scum, the scum now knows who's the doctor, so it's guaranteed game over.
I guess I'll sign up for the next one and try not to focus so much on only one player.You and me both, lol.
On another note: Phantom of The Library makes awesome spectator popcorn.You cannot hope to beat my spectator popcorn in a popcorn-off. It is simply the best there is~~
Tiruin is confirmed for perma-scum status. Goddamnit I knew it was you!Tiruin is the new Wuba :3
Chaos Armor: Why did you protect Theo so many times?
Always. Scum. Retroactively if need be.B-but I-
Tiruin is confirmed for perma-scum status. Goddamnit I knew it was you!
Tiruin is the new Wuba :3D:
[...]Problem was with that post-after-day end was that I really couldn't save that post at the time. Theoretically, I didn't think of PMing myself, or posting that down n the SC...
Tiruin - Is always scum. Really shouldn't have posted what you did after day end that one time. And, yeah, it did come across to me like you were trying to save FD there. Otherwise played a decent game, if not a bit of an annoying one with all of the "post coming soon" posts. Not sure if something RL is going on, but I often found your questions difficult to understand at times, and you seemed a little 'off' compared to some other games I've seen you in.
Very well played, Tiruin. You outmaneuvered the IC. D::D
Must've been you, Tir. Wouldn't FD (Godfather) show as Town?Oh...good idea. Heh :P
Which, to be honest, I kind of prefer. Catching scum with a lucky cop inspect is probably teaching the wrong lessons.Teaching the wrong lessons, how?