Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 08:15:44 pm
I skipped Arena and Daggerfall, because I very few people of these forums played them, although I think they had some aspects what were missing from future games.
Arena was not a very good game depending on its boring graphics (by that time's standard). You had to write your own map with names on it (the building were marked), I see some redeeming factor in this, since in real life if you would write a map, you would only include the places you find interesting, and you often visit (and it has a more personal feel). Some also criticized the fighting system, but I think it was very unique, if you swung your mouse horizontally while pressing the fire button it, you could make a swing (for example with a sword), you could do this in any direction, so from top to bottom, you could strike on the enemy, the opposite, bottom to top, would make a stabbing maneuver.
Then came Daggerfall it has the biggest world in the series (3 times bigger than the British Isles), even in a randomly generated world that is pretty amusing. You could climb walls, ladders, ropes, ride horses, wereforms and many more improvements compared to arena.
Morrowind (I consider this game the epitome of Elder Scrolls, close with Daggerfall), the attribute system was polished, you actually had to use your skills, and only if you used them successfully, you gained experience, when this commutative experience reached a level, you could chose to level your attributes, however you could only have attribute multipliers if you used a skill, that is governed by that attribute. You could do some interesting enchantment (design special weapons), trap the soul of powerful enemies to empower them, levitate and move in fully 3D world, finally have hand polished and unique, interesting and long quests. You also actually had to read what the quest givers said to know where to go (no quest mark or fast travel), you had mark, recall spells, various travel options, what forced you to plan your schedule (just as in real life), and gave a little more realism. You had bows, crossbows, throwing darts, stars, spears, warhammers, maces, axes, daggers, swords, claymores, katana, wakizashis and many more. You also had light, medium and heavy armor. The number of normal, unique and artifact items was also stunning. Overall it had a very deep storyline, but you could just go on with the faction mission since there were more than 11 factions, even special ones like vampire, lich or werewolf. Every NPC had a story, and you could just sit and read and read through all that information of a detailed world, or read books. Good barter, sneaking and stealing system, you could actually feel like a little sneaky kleptomaniac sometime :) The inventory system was also great. If you ever played Morrowind for more than a few hours you know what I am talking about.
When Oblivion came out I was a bit disappointed because they decreased the numbler of skills and attributes, however when it came to light, that every skill has special bonuses and abilities on higher levels, I though that this enriched the game, and made it more interesting, I liked the new combat system too, however in time it got boring. I also enjoyed the horses which were left out of Morrowind, and that you actually had to make some effort to sell off stolen stuff (though it was funny to watch when you sold the merchant's own stuff, and he attacked you in Morrowind), and you also had to go through some missions to learn enchanting. Talking was good, however it (from obvious reasons), lacked the amount of information what was in Morrowind. I also disliked that in Morrowind your journal recorded everything you have ever hear, and you could browse through words and terms, and their description contained links to other words. I also liked the arena where I had to fight hard to defeat some of the later enemies. The battle with the Grand Champion for example. Also I never tried to use alchemy in Morrowind, and I was surprised how fun it was to try out new poisons on enemies, especially on the mission to pale pass (which is my favorite one). First I disliked the new lock pick system and the persuasion mini-game, but after I got the hang of it, I knew it was a useful addon.
I had high hopes for Skyrim, it was fun for a little, but after I get out of the cavern, and realized that almost everything was changed what was good, and the attribute system was dropped (basically this was the only thing that made me try out the Elder Scrolls, the old experience based on skill system was boring in other games) in favor of a perk system (which I never liked, even if I have played Fallout 2 from start to the end). Missions are even more easy and simple than it was in Oblivion (the main quest), the inventory is a complete mess even compared to Oblivion inventory (in which the dumbed down scroll inventory, was aimed at console users, because they lack a mouse, but it had a nice old parchment style which balanced this). Conversations are shallow, everything is for the looks, as if game play is only secondary. The RPG part is almost dropped to make way for an FPS, which is aimed at the masses, who praise games that are "easy to play", and consider thoughtful playing, where you actually has to read, understand and think about quests, motivations of quest givers dull or boring. These kind people are who can't even imagine what is good in reading a book and using your imagination more (for example Asimov, Dune, Lord of the Rings, or fine literature) and the pre-made assets less. Basically after a while in Skyrim I felt emptyness, I felt I am compelled to play (like the feeling what you get when playing WoW, and power-leveling or grinding), it wasn't interesting anymore. It was like Avatar good looks, bad everything. I expected more voice actors than in Oblivion, I got less. Even the race bonuses were changed to the worse. And overall everything was nerfed down so more and more people would buy the game as casual gamers. Basically it is like consumerism, where we own a fridge and throw it out after a year, despite it could work perfectly for 10 years. We just rush through games, like switching through TV channels, and not having a full movie anywhere. It like when everybody was praiseing Dark Knight, yet they failed to note the numerous plot holes, cheap rhetoric and logical errors and fallacies (maybe it was so obvious that it was oblivious). I mean I can understand that profit is what drives everything today, and profitability is not necessary means quality, but come on. They promised new graphics, yet we only have Oblivion->Fallout 3 overhaul. We had games like Crysys before. If I ever want to play an Elder Scrolls game again I just go with 2, 3 or 4.
This is why I like DF more than any other kind of game like this, also it's adventure mode has a lot of potential to become sandbock, where people can design and write powerful stories, books and quests for other to explore.
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 11, 2012, 08:21:02 pm
Morrowind was the best experience crafted for the player
Oblivion was sorta weird, and while better of a game than Morrowind due to escaping the D&D trappings of the series, its experience is worse than the other two because of awkwardness with presentation and mechanics refinement.
Post by: sluissa on July 11, 2012, 08:32:38 pm
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on July 11, 2012, 08:51:04 pm
Skyrim gives you the illusion of choice, of depth, when it's actually the shallowest game in the entire series. They removed tons of spells, skills, weapons and armor. Everything that people like in skyrim could have been done in oblivion since they both run on the same engine. They turned TES into a First Person Stabber, ditching it's rpg elements for a casual audience. I know I put in well over 300 hours into morrowind, yet I could barely manage to put 20 into skyrim.
Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 09:07:36 pm
Morrowind let you have freedom with the story, you could go anywhere, kill anyone. There was even a secondary way to complete the main quest if you were a prick, and a third (but stupidly straight forward and dangerous way) if you were a total prick.
Skyrim gives you the illusion of choice, of depth, when it's actually the shallowest game in the entire series. They removed tons of spells, skills, weapons and armor. Everything that people like in skyrim could have been done in oblivion since they both run on the same engine. They turned TES into a First Person Stabber, ditching it's rpg elements for a casual audience. I know I put in well over 300 hours into morrowind, yet I could barely manage to put 20 into skyrim.
Myself couldn't have said better. My hope in humanity is not completely lost :P
Post by: Knight of Fools on July 11, 2012, 09:16:33 pm
I enjoyed Skyrim, for all its failings. Morrowind comes close behind it, but mostly for the setting. As for the story, and even that came around to kick itself in the butt. There was just too much "bar bar bar bar" when there could have been more game. Of course, Bethesda went the opposite direction with Oblivion and Skyrim, almost dumping the importance of the story entirely in favor of a more cinematic approach, but they refined it to a more acceptable level with Skyrim.
Not that I think the story in Morrowind sucked, or that the story in Skyrim was awesome. Skyrim just managed to entertain me more.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 11, 2012, 09:18:11 pm
Post by: foil on July 11, 2012, 09:21:37 pm
Post by: AnalysisFailed on July 11, 2012, 09:21:48 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As for the combat, magic has constantly been scaled down, and that's my favorite bit of the system. So that the to-hit had a die roll when it came to physical combat was a moot point to me. Plus, there are mods for that.
I enjoyed being able to complete the end of some quests before even starting them, whereas the later games had unpickable locks and other methods trying to keep you from doing anything in a method that they hadn't meticulously designed. It kinda bothered me, I mean, how is a lock not pick able? If it exists there is a way, at least with that technology. The lack of the levitation spell also... Did they just all of a sudden lose the knowledge of the spell?
Post by: foil on July 11, 2012, 09:32:55 pm
Tho on pc u can remove the gates and have the city internals rendering in the main world areas, Is great fun when using the portal gun mod for huuge teleports.
I also think fast travel ruined the newer games as it removed any real exploration after u been to a few cities over the map. Instead of the journey adding to the quests, you just fast travel somewhere near quest then walk 30 seconds to area.
Just getting to Vos or Sadrith Mora was an adventure in itself before u even got to quest areas in Morrowind...
Post by: rarborman on July 11, 2012, 09:41:45 pm
Morrowind is the best game, not very pretty but who needs that shit when you have actual gameplay and mountains of replay value.
So many hours walking between towns, and running from scathcrows all the day long.
Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 09:42:21 pm
If having folks agree with you improves your faith in humanity, prepare to lose a bit.
I enjoyed Skyrim, for all its failings. Morrowind comes close behind it, but mostly for the setting. As for the story, and even that came around to kick itself in the butt. There was just too much "bar bar bar bar" when there could have been more game. Of course, Bethesda went the opposite direction with Oblivion and Skyrim, almost dumping the importance of the story entirely in favor of a more cinematic approach, but they refined it to a more acceptable level with Skyrim.
Not that I think the story in Morrowind sucked, or that the story in Skyrim was awesome. Skyrim just managed to entertain me more.
Well than one was not entirely about agreeing with me, but with setting up straigh the main differences between the two game. However story is just one of it, story is important alone too, but considering all the other aspects I have talked about is what pushed Morrowind above Skyrim.
My personal reference on (taking into accounte the era they were released too, & means tied):
Graphics: 5 & 4, 3, 2, 1
Game-play:3 & 2, 4 & 1, 5
Sound: 5 & 3, 4, 2, 1
Customization: 3, 2, 4, 5, 1
Game-mechanics: 3, 2, 4, 5, 1
Lore detail: 2, 3, 4, 1, 5
Combat system: 1, 4, 3, 2, 5
Overall: 3 & 2, 4, 5 & 1
Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 09:46:30 pm
The levitation spell was removed because inside the city walls were thru a load area where in Morrowind they were in the main world area, Would have looked rough if able to fly over wall into a non loaded area in Oblivion/Skyrim.
Tho on pc u can remove the gates and have the city internals rendering in the main world areas, Is great fun when using the portal gun mod for huuge teleports.
I also think fast travel ruined the newer games as it removed any real exploration after u been to a few cities over the map. Instead of the journey adding to the quests, you just fast travel somewhere near quest then walk 30 seconds to area.
Just getting to Vos or Sadrith Mora was an adventure in itself before u even got to quest areas in Morrowind...
Yes but they could also retrict your movement of levitation and also the usage of it. For example Hircine's shire.
I myself remember when I just started to explore Vvardenfell, and had my first on Mt. Kand with a Alit.
(http://images.uesp.net/3/3e/MW-creature-Alit.jpg)
(http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/gallery_files/mapmorrenormous.jpg)
Post by: Knight of Fools on July 11, 2012, 09:53:03 pm
I'm not sure how Morrowind had better customization than either Oblivion or Skyrim. Both had a huge number of things you could change about your character's face before sticking a mask or helmet over it. If you're talking about skills and such, that falls more under game mechanics than customization. Skyrim also had a lot more quests involved with the lore of the world than Oblivion, and did a much better job of presenting the past as something that happened. Oblivion mostly had books and the Emperor, and that was about it. If the world had started existing the day before you started adventuring very little would have been different.
Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 09:57:24 pm
They cheapened out on the programing load by decreasing collisions, so no levatation is basicly lots less work, they found this out making mounhold be a no fly zone, and got lazy about it, making zones to contain the player in so they dont try to hit that object that wont collide with them, there are examples of this all over the later games, and they pass it off as levatation is illegal because Jiub doesnt like flying.
Morrowind is the best game, not very pretty but who needs that shit when you have actual gameplay and mountains of replay value.
So many hours walking between towns, and running from scathcrows all the day long.
Hey here is Tamrial Rebuilt, you can update it with a mod Morrowind far sight, that disaples fog.
The Tamriel Rebuilt crew actually did the WHOLE province of Morrowind, not just Vvardenfell, with npcs and quests. They also started to make Hammerfell.
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=main (http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=main)
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?picture=Old Ebonheart 1.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=3 (http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?picture=Old Ebonheart 1.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=3)
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?image=g/maps/map_mw_full.jpg&p=modding_data/maps (http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?image=g/maps/map_mw_full.jpg&p=modding_data/maps)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc36x5O2mPY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc36x5O2mPY)
Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 10:02:34 pm
omigosh huge picture - Remember that some people that browse these forums have small screens or limited bandwidth. In the least put it in spoilers.
I'm not sure how Morrowind had better customization than either Oblivion or Skyrim. Both had a huge number of things you could change about your character's face before sticking a mask or helmet over it. If you're talking about skills and such, that falls more under game mechanics than customization. Skyrim also had a lot more quests involved with the lore of the world than Oblivion, and did a much better job of presenting the past as something that happened. Oblivion mostly had books and the Emperor, and that was about it. If the world had started existing the day before you started adventuring very little would have been different.
Sorry about that :)
About the lore, I can't help it, but the dialogue system of Morrowind is better, it brings you more into it. Voice acting is not everything. I have fine with the few grunts, and speeches what NPCs in Morrowind made. I liked the customization better in Morrowind, because despite you have an in built face maker in 4 and 5, you cannot make really unique faces with it, it jus changes the one template a little, I would rather go with preset, but entirely different faces, or much more refined face-maker (for example a one that allows me to load my photo into it, and can easily make my facial features).
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on July 11, 2012, 10:05:07 pm
omigosh huge picture - Remember that some people that browse these forums have small screens or limited bandwidth. In the least put it in spoilers.In morrowind you could equip 16 items, you could also put any enchantment you wanted on those, any at all, no restrictions.
I'm not sure how Morrowind had better customization than either Oblivion or Skyrim. Both had a huge number of things you could change about your character's face before sticking a mask or helmet over it. If you're talking about skills and such, that falls more under game mechanics than customization. Skyrim also had a lot more quests involved with the lore of the world than Oblivion, and did a much better job of presenting the past as something that happened. Oblivion mostly had books and the Emperor, and that was about it. If the world had started existing the day before you started adventuring very little would have been different.
in skyrim you have 9 equipment slots, with severe restrictions of what you could enchant on those pieces. If you think Skyrim handled the TES lore well, I'm starting to wonder about you.
Post by: Eagle_eye on July 11, 2012, 10:07:15 pm
Post by: cameron on July 11, 2012, 10:09:36 pm
Quote from: the op
(for example Asimov, Dune, Lord of the Rings, or fine literature)the only thing I can think of these (except maybe whatever "fine literature" refers to) have in common is a well developed setting? Also I'm not sure how relevant your little rant on the state of modern society is, there was only 4 years between morrowind and oblivion.
Anyways, I voted dagger-fall as after daggerfall the series moved more and more towards a very meticulously designed world that a player was expected to move through in a set manner. I know a lot of morrowind fans will say it was in many respects gave the player more freedom, it was a shift from mostly randomly generated quests and terrain which gave the appearance of a large and living world, to a small and preplanned world which only seemed to move forwards with the player. It isn't even that I particularly enjoyed daggerfall more than any of the other games but that it seems to represent where the series could have continued, it could have instead gone in the direction of simulation and generation of large environments and communities for a player to explore with little regard to perceived fairness in play or adherence to a script.
Post by: Knight of Fools on July 11, 2012, 10:11:16 pm
Sheesh, I'm not that stupid. :P
I did completely forget about the whole enchanting and spell work thing, though, but that's probably because I never got into the magic system in any of the TES games. I think I actually used more magic in Skyrim than any other in the series, ironically.
Still, customization implies aesthetics rather than mechanics when talking about games. Spells are more of a mechanical notion, and not all characters, or even players, use magic.
Post by: Hawkfrost on July 11, 2012, 10:19:02 pm
I played it for about 10? hours and eventually just stopped.
My main problem was probably that either everything died in like two hits, or kill you in the same amount, so you actually couldn't explore anywhere (at least not at level 1-4) because the enemies simply walled you everywhere you went and the grind to get your stats up took forever.
So after faffing around the cities for a bit doing boring guild quests my attention wavered.
Now, Morrowind IS probably the best of the Elder Scrolls series hands down but it has some serious newcomer blocks.
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on July 11, 2012, 10:23:58 pm
Still, customization implies aesthetics rather than mechanics when talking about games. Spells are more of a mechanical notion, and not all characters, or even players, use magic.The plastic wrap look that enchanted items had? Different spells had different colours, I remember being a level 70 god of death, with all my equipment either increasing my strength or giving me a ludicrous health regeneration. Good times.
Call me heretical or whatever else, but I could never get into Morrowind in any respect.The game is actually incredibly easy if you don't level at all, but know where all the good gear is. And I loved the quests, I could still do the theives guild quest-line even in my sleep.
I played it for about 10? hours and eventually just stopped.
My main problem was probably that either everything died in like two hits, or kill you in the same amount, so you actually couldn't explore anywhere (at least not at level 1-4) because the enemies simply walled you everywhere you went and the grind to get your stats up took forever.
So after faffing around the cities for a bit doing boring guild quests my attention wavered.
Now, Morrowind IS probably the best of the Elder Scrolls series hands down but it has some serious newcomer blocks.
Post by: Hawkfrost on July 11, 2012, 10:40:33 pm
The game is actually incredibly easy if you don't level at all, but know where all the good gear is.
Then that's honestly a huge problem, because a game shouldn't punish you for getting stronger.
It was an issue with Oblivion until I modded it out, and I really want to know which devs actually think rubberbanding difficulty is a good idea.
Post by: sluissa on July 11, 2012, 10:43:10 pm
Oblivion was the first TES game that I actually completed the main storyline in... and that should tell you something right there. The fact that the world was small enough and empty enough that I didn't get distracted from the main plot just shows how things kept getting smaller and more confined. Granted, Oblivion put just a tad more emphasis on the direness of the situation. I mean, hell gates popping up everywhere and an evil demi-god about to invade? That's a lot more drastic than Daggerfall's ghostly hauntings, and Morrowind's "report to this drug addict and be his errand boy for a while."
Skyrim I barely got into. It was just like. Oh, dragons... they're kinda hard to kill... oh, apparently I'm special somehow. And... yeah... let's go loot some bandit forts for a bit and decorate my house... and then I got bored. I also felt really out of character playing anything but a Conan the Barbarian(Ahnuld, not Jason Momoa.) type Nord character. Yeah, they gave you the option to be anything, but it just felt odd to be anything but a Nord... and as a Nord, it felt odd to be anything but a nearly naked fighter.
If I had to play one now, I'd probably go back to Oblivion, or maybe try to get into Skyrim again. Daggerfall's biggest problem is the horribly dated and awkward GUI and I have a hard time getting past it, not to mention the difficulty of getting it running, but that's not a problem with the game itself. Morrowind, as I said, just feels too slow to me. I know that I missed some stuff in Oblivion, which is why I'd be willing to go back and give it a slightly closer look. Skyrim, I perhaps unfairly judge, and I"m sure there's more to see there, it's just that nothing in the first 5 or so hours I played grabbed me.
Daggerfall still has more playtime for me than any others and I know I've not even come anywhere near to exploring all the possibilities. I never even got a ship or explored much beyond the northern part of the map. Morrowind gave me enough playtime that I feel like it was a worthwhile experience. Oblivion and Skyrim. At first I felt like there wasn't enough there. But once I actually dug into Oblivion, it wasn't a bad game, just not up to what I was hoping. Skyrim I feel is similar. Probably not bad, I've just had enough of it lately with Oblivion, two Fallouts and all the other similar sandboxy games out there.
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 11, 2012, 10:50:22 pm
Can I explain it? Probably not. I've tried every game on the list, even the expansions, except for one: I never got shivering isles for oblivion, nor did I get the other expansion, nor did I ever patch it, nor did I ever use a single mod since I was on the 360.
But you know what? Oblivion made me happy. I loved that game to pieces, I remember the nights I used to stay up, the first time playing through the dark brotherhood, the fun I'd have switching between humorous glitch-the-game-out fun and serious roleplay on a whim. I remember climbing white-gold tower with paintbrushes. I remember having fun blowing the adoring fan off every known elevation of terrain. I remember looking for daedric shrines to get the cool shiny weapons.
Nostalgia tinting my vision? Maybe. But the save game screen doesn't lie, and the save game screen says I have hundreds of hours invested in playing just a single character.
I miss that game. I wish I could bring it back now, but it's not as fun going through it all a second time.
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on July 11, 2012, 10:57:06 pm
It only becomes a problem if you know where everything is. The difficulty does jump when you gain enough levels for harder enemies to spawn, but it's still better than skyrim.The game is actually incredibly easy if you don't level at all, but know where all the good gear is.
Then that's honestly a huge problem, because a game shouldn't punish you for getting stronger.
It was an issue with Oblivion until I modded it out, and I really want to know which devs actually think rubberbanding difficulty is a good idea.
Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 11:02:07 pm
The game is actually incredibly easy if you don't level at all, but know where all the good gear is.
Then that's honestly a huge problem, because a game shouldn't punish you for getting stronger.
It was an issue with Oblivion until I modded it out, and I really want to know which devs actually think rubberbanding difficulty is a good idea.
No the game don't punish you for getting stronger. It is just another tactic developed by the players, it fits some, others like leveling. The problem with your starting character is that, you maybe don't spent your attributes well enough, it depends on what kind of player you are, fighter, mage, marksman, thief or in between. I suggest not to use the predefined classes, but design your adventuresr in such a way that it's starting attributes, skill, race and sign strenghten and not weaken each other. For example the The Lord sign paired with a High Elf is pretty suicidal. An Orc with Warrior sign, with Heavy Armor, Axe, Block, and Armorer is a more easier fighter.
Post by: Hawkfrost on July 11, 2012, 11:25:05 pm
Maybe I'll give it another try sometime and see how it goes.
Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 11:46:22 pm
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Differences_Between_Morrowind,_Oblivion,_and_Skyrim (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Differences_Between_Morrowind,_Oblivion,_and_Skyrim)
Morrowind
As a high-level member of a Great House, you can build a stronghold. You can also acquire two player homes in Bloodmoon. (added by me: you can also build a city through quests in Bloodmoon)
Oblivion
You can buy houses of your own in Oblivion.
Skyrim
You can buy houses of your own in Skyrim. NPCs who have a high disposition for you will often allow you to take some of their less valuable items and even sleep in their beds. Upon marrying someone, you will share ownership on all of your spouse's property.
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Morrowind
There is no map marker for quests. It is important to get full directions from a quest-giver before you leave. Make sure to ask about every topic that seems relevant to your mission to make sure you are getting all the information you need.
Oblivion, Skyrim
You can select a quest in your journal to be your "active quest". In most situations, a quest marker will direct you to the next location for your active quest.
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Morrowind
The Acrobatics skill is quite powerful compared to later TES games.
Oblivion
The Acrobatics skill has been significantly toned down.
Skyrim
Acrobatics is no longer a learnable skill.
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Morrowind
Your character has 5 major Skills and 5 minor skills. Your level is dependent on these. Everything else is considered a miscellaneous skill and has no effect on your level, though they do contribute to your attributes on level up.
Oblivion
Your character has 7 major skills. Your level is dependent on these. Everything else is considered a minor skill and has no effect on your level, though they do contribute to your attributes on level up.
Skyrim
There are no major or minor skills; in fact, skills aren't even chosen pre-game. All skills affect your level as they increase, as well as your attributes.
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Morrowind
The journal is organized chronologically. You can also look up conversation topics in your journal to see all the dialog related to that topic. As of the Tribunal expansion, you can look up all entries relating to specific quests as well.
Oblivion
The journal is organized by quest title. You can view all of the entries for your active quest in reverse chronological order. You can also view a shortened list of all of your current or completed quests. You cannot look up conversation topics.
Skyrim
The journal is organized chronologically, with more recent quests at the top. Completed quests are listed, in order of completion, on the bottom half of the journal. A single "Miscellaneous" tab contains all info on any miscellaneous quests. You cannot look up conversation topics.
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Morrowind
You can drop and sell quest-related items, so it is possible to lose them. It is a good idea to save items that have a unique name, or look them up on the wiki before getting rid of them, because they might be related to a quest later on.
Oblivion, Skyrim
Quest-related items cannot be dropped or sold until they are no longer needed. They will have no weight for as long as they are considered essential. The Elder Scroll in Skyrim is an exception where it weighs 20 and cannot be dropped.
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Morrowind
Custom spells are created by paying a Spellmaker.
Oblivion
Custom spells are created for gold at an Altar of Spellmaking.
Skyrim
Custom spells are not available in Skyrim.
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Morrowind
You can have multiple summoned creatures fighting by your side at one time. You can summon a wide variety of creatures, including animals and automatons.
Oblivion
Only one creature can be summoned at your disposal at one time. Summoning a second one dispels the first. Only undead and daedra (including Dremora) can be summoned.
Skyrim
Only one creature can be summoned at your disposal at one time. Summoning a second one dispels the first. However, if you have the Twin Souls perk, you can have two summoned creatures at a time. Only familiars, atronachs, and Dremora can be summoned directly. NPC corpses can be reanimated into zombies.
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Morrowind
A faction's quests may require you to kill an NPC essential to another faction's quest.
Oblivion, Skyrim
You can never kill an NPC essential to another faction's quest until after he or she is no longer essential.
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Morrowind
Advancement is dependent upon completing a certain number of quests (in no particular order) and having sufficiently high skill levels within the faction's favored skill set.
Oblivion, Skyrim
Advancement is dependent only upon completing the required quests, usually in a linear fashion. There are no skill level requirements.
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Morrowind
There is no icon to warn you that you are about to commit a crime, so be careful when you pick something up or open something that might be owned.
Oblivion, Skyrim
The take icon will turn red over owned items to warn you that interacting with it will be considered a crime.
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Morrowind
If you gain a bounty equal to five-thousand gold, a death warrant will be issued for you. Guards will not attempt to arrest you. The only way to get rid of your bounty is through the Thieves Guild.
Oblivion
Guards will always attempt to arrest you, and you can always be forgiven for your crimes through the proper channels.
Skyrim
Guards will almost always attempt to arrest you. If they witness you commit a minor crime such as petty thievery, and their disposition towards you is high enough, you can talk your way out of it. If you are Thane of the hold, you can eliminate the charges, but you can only use this option one time per hold. If you are in the Thieves Guild, an option is present where you can bribe the guard to drop the charges.
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Morrowind
Any number of items may be sold or bought in one transaction.
Oblivion, Skyrim
Each item or stack of items you sell or buy constitutes a separate transaction.
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Morrowind
Available weapons include short swords, long swords, broad swords, claymores, wakizashis, katanas, daggers, tantos, sabers, clubs, battle axes, maces, warhammers, war axes, halberds, spears, shortbows, longbows, crossbows, throwing knives, darts, and throwing stars.
Oblivion
Only short swords, long swords, claymores, daggers, clubs, battle axes, maces, warhammers, war axes, and bows are typically available, although a few katanas and cutlasses also exist.
Skyrim
The Skyrim player has the options of daggers, swords, katanas, maces, war axes, battle axes, greatswords, staffs, warhammers, bows, and crossbows(DG).
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Morrowind
Each weapon has varying damage levels for each type of attack.
Oblivion, Skyrim
Every weapon does the same base damage, no matter what attack is used.
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Morrowind, Oblivion
Armor and weapon condition will degrade as the items are used. When the condition reaches 0 (out of 100), the item is broken and cannot be used. The player can repair them or pay a weapon merchant to have them repaired.
Skyrim
Armor and weapons do not degrade or break.
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Morrowind, Oblivion
When the player is underwater, a meter shows how much air they have left before they begin to take health damage. Weapons and spells can be used while swimming.
Skyrim
No air meter when underwater. Weapons, spells, and shouts cannot be used when swimming.
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Morrowind
Essential NPCs can be killed, but doing so relays a message that "the thread of prophecy has been broken" and says to reload or "continue in this doomed world".
Oblivion, Skyrim
Essential NPCs cannot be killed.
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Morrowind, Oblivion
Your race, and to a lesser extent, your class, determine your starting attributes like Strength and Speed. These can be increased on level up.
Skyrim
Strength, Speed, and the other six primary attributes from previous games no longer exist—there are only three attributes now: Health, Magicka, and Stamina. All races start with 100 in each attribute, with the exception of Altmer, who start with 150 magicka.
Post by: towerdude on July 11, 2012, 11:50:25 pm
Well I designed my characters basically the way you stated, with complimentary skills.
Maybe I'll give it another try sometime and see how it goes.
Also you actually have to be cautious with whom you fight, you will learn thing by trial and error. I for example started to steal things, with the Tower sign, and sold out stuff, bough what high level items I could. And if it wasn't necessary to fight an enemy, and he just summoned a skeleton army, I skipped the fight, or used levitation, or jumped on rock, or lured them into lava or off a cliff. It is also a viable tactic to not fight anyone, but use stealth and fast movement, and only backstab or pick pocket the bosses.
Post by: alexandertnt on July 12, 2012, 03:18:50 am
Morrowind had a much nicer land, and was much more fun to explore. Dungeons seemed reasonably varied and interesing to go through. Some cities had sewers/other extra things. In Oblivion, dungeons were barren samey tubes that were completely uninteresting. Skyrim improved them, but sort of fell inbetween the two.
In terms of technical graphics, its obviously Skyrim followed by Oblivion followed by Morrowind. In terms of art though the world of Morrowind much more interesting to look at. (its been a while since I played it (cant remember names) but that city that was basically pyrmids in the ocean, I think it started with a V. That was awesome.). However, the character meshes and (especially) the animations were eye-bleedingly bad. Oblivion improved this, but was still pretty meh-ish. Skyrim further improved this to the point of being acceptable, but they still werent great. (For Morrowind) Installing Better Bodies (I believe the mod was called) rectified the mesh issue, but this is in regards to the base game. Skyrim's enviroment was way to grey-scale and dull for me. I know why alot of modern games do it, due to the limitation of light simulation etc, but it was still quite boring to look at.
However, Morrowind had unique animation's and meshes for the beast races, which I usually played. Sure, they were still terrable, but merely being different was a nice touch and help gave them a little more character. Even the Argonian's had their own swiming animation. Again, the animation itself is terrable, but it was still a nice touch just because it was different. Oblivion ruined them. Skyrim alteres a few animations, but only marginally improved on Obivion.
Im not a lore-person, So I dont really have much to say in regards to this. If a game breaks a few lore-rules I dont mind.
In regards to combat, I preferred Skyrim and Obivion though. Something about swining a sword into someone's face and missing, despite having seen the sword go into their face was rather jarring. I dont subscribe to the statistical-gameplay-is-more-intelligent-and-better argument. Actually I dont understand it at all. I liked that these two games glossed over all the numbers, which don't feel right when I want to enjoy the world and the game (your X skill is 47 giving you a 65% chance of hitting? I dont care). I did like, however, that using weapons in Morrowind in different ways (stab, slash etc) worked in a logical way with regards to the weapon being used. That is slashing with a spear is a bad idea etc. This was a nice feature I was disappointed to see removed. The killing animations in Skyrim are cool for about the first 5 or so times, after that they become annoying and pointless.
I did not like Oblivion's level-scaling thing. As much as I don't like the stats-stuff, it made any for mof advancement feel completely redundant. Skyrim did a bit better. Morrowind did it the best, as they were all a set level. Dangerious places were actually dangerous and made exploring more interesting. It avoided grind by simply providing plenty of things for a low-level character to do, you could just play the game without grinding and advance at a reasonable rate without feeling like a grind.
I liked all the extra armor and weapons of Morrowind. Being able to equip different shoulder-pieces and such made armor more interesting. The weapon variety was nice, the various different types of armor's, and the 3 categories they could fit into were nice too. Oblivion was a bit of a dissapointment in this regards. Equiptment was just less fun and interesting. Skyrim was worse, with even less.
I did prefer Morrowind's text-heavy approach, as I like to read. But I did not mind the change to voice acting (except for Oblivion's issue with limited number of voice actors). The story in Morrowind felt more engaging, but I still enjoyed Oblivion's one too. When I heard Skyrim (being a fantasy game) would have a significant focus on slaying dragons I nearly wanted to facepalm my face inside-out. Seriously? Slaying dragons? Thats the best you could come up with? Whats next, saving princesses in towers? Game made it very hard to explain to people that fantasy stuff is more than just terrable cliché. Also actually slaying them had the same issue as the kill animation. Turned into a repetitive and pointless novelty quickly. The Oblivion gate's (forget their exact name, been a while since I played it) got annoying too though. Actually now I think about it, Dragons in Skyrim were basically flying Oblivion games, complete with a "you-finished-it!" spell/powerup/thingy.
So to conclude, Morrowind had a more interesting world, story and items. Oblivion had better combat, less getting lost (I cannot explain in words how bad I am with directions, IRL or in game), less painful animations and less stat-focused gameplay. And Skyrim was basically an improved-Obivion (but with some of its own problems and faults). Ultimately I put more time into Oblivion, but that was probably because it was the first one that I got.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on July 12, 2012, 04:42:35 am
being head of a guild lets you order subordinates around. If patriarch of the temple you can literally order someone executed for heresy and it will bloody happen.
Vanilla morrowind rocks for the customizable outfits, the landscape, the cultures (remember the first time you realized how Telvanni architecture organically excluded the plebs-- can't fly? too bad, go back to farming, serf)
Plotwise i loved Morrowind for the same reason I didn't like Oblvion (except the excellent shivering isles) and enjoyed skyrim. Oblivion makes a bullshit case for the necessity of an emperor my khajiiti and dunmer characters would have never supported or cared for. Just the fact that I couldn't stab that irritating waspy "lord of the known universe" in the face drove me crazy.
Compare to Morrowind's distinct moral ambivalence. Sure, youre the nerevarine messiah, here to save the world! The emperor's spy chief, who certainly has nothing to gain from destabilizing the entrenched temple hierarchy nor destroying the rebellious god-kings and their silly semi-sovereignty said so, so it must be true. You didn't even have to play along (my telvanni certainly didn't- r.i.p. imperial cult and legion, slaughtering you wholesale was...pleasant)
Skyrim goes for something similar (Go with the stormcloaks, save the nords from the evil empire holding the world together, ignore that embassy file on Ulfric being a tormented pawn of the altmer!) and for that they gt major brownie points.
Now lets get ready to universally hate the mmo
Post by: Lightning4 on July 12, 2012, 05:21:26 am
Morrowind was absolutely thick with lore and just in general a deep world. Some nostalgia is definitely factoring into this, since I, like many, spent quite a few hours on it, years ago.
Negative points have already been stated before. Combat was less than spectacular compared to the later games.
Skyrim recaptured a lot of the depth of world that Morrowind had. Just try walking somewhere without even considering fast travel (I try to avoid using it entirely), and you'll find the world is pretty interesting. There's actually a fair few things out there that entirely lack map markers. There's also no shortage of interesting quests and questlines. I could probably fill an entire post just on the ones I've experienced, and I still have at least 50% of the game to go!
As for Oblivion, I can't say I've actually done very much in it. But just from what I have played, it does have its faults, and I feel places behind Morrowind and Skyrim for them. Not a bad game by far, but compared to the other two, falls behind.
Post by: Supercharazad on July 12, 2012, 05:42:07 am
Oblivion was the worst Elder Scrolls game IMO, Morrowind was the best and though Skyrim basically removed attributes, it still felt fun to play, and there was still a feeling that things were dark and creepy and actually had some sort of uniqueness to it, unlike Oblivion.
In all, I prefer Morrowing with both expansions and the latest graphic packs I can get.
Post by: Trapezohedron on July 12, 2012, 05:47:17 am
However, Skyrim is totally shallow in the gameplay department, more so than Oblivion. While Oblivion didn't allow you to wield two weapons left and right, it did allow you to enchant anything into them, allowing you to create unique and clever weapons such as the weakness+100 weapons on hit. Skyrim totally restricts any of that, only allowing you to use boring enchantments for weapons, which have little effect against enemies leveled 30 and up. Also, spells in Oblivion actually packed a punch, while in Skyrim, reach Level 30, spells almost reach Scratch Damage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScratchDamage) quality, excepting a few others.
But Morrowind, and its expansions trump it all, with its masterful writing and lore, and nice gameplay. Too bad Morrowind plays quite slow at the start.
Post by: hachnslay on July 12, 2012, 08:09:13 am
Scratch Damage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScratchDamage)
...
another 30 mins of possible productivity down the drain. at least may working day ends in 1 hour.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 12, 2012, 08:17:29 am
Post by: hachnslay on July 12, 2012, 08:31:26 am
Comparison is strange. Morrowind + 2 expansions and years of patches vs Skyrim base game?Unless they completely remove the down dumbing that happened nothing can bring skyrim over morrowind.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 12, 2012, 08:37:12 am
Opinion stated as fact is still opinion. I'd still prefer to play skyrim or oblivion over morrowind. I would play morrowind remade in Skyrim's engine though.Comparison is strange. Morrowind + 2 expansions and years of patches vs Skyrim base game?Unless they completely remove the down dumbing that happened nothing can bring skyrim over morrowind.
Post by: Jelle on July 12, 2012, 08:45:10 am
So my vote goes to Morrowind!
Post by: Aequor on July 12, 2012, 09:26:28 am
Oblivion and Skyrim did improve in some bits of gameplay, the big one being no more swinging and missing despite connecting (I got killed by a rat the first time playing Morrowind after Oblivion because I couldn't hit anything at all) and having people actual wander around, go into buildings, etc, but the setting just fell completely through and became pretty unoriginal, boring and generic. I mean, try to sum up 90% or so of Morrowind's culture and setting using one Earth culture, you can't. But Oblivion? Medieval. Skyrim? Vikings.
That's the big thing that makes Morrowind so much better than its sequels in my opinion. You had a crazy and unique culture with mushroom dwelling wizards, vaguely desert-architecture-like merchants, crab-shell dwelling warriors, a native religion that had a vaguely Catholic Church-like organization spread throughout the land and wasteland-dwelling nomads. You had varied ruins from the past, Dwemer ruins, Daedric ruins, Dunmer ruins and Velothi towers. It all meshed together to make this really interesting culture that I wanted to learn more about, and really let the Dunmer move away from their origins as the Elder Scrolls' Drow substitute into their own interesting unique people. The writing was also much better, including actually having an interesting villain with motives beyond "Because I'm EVIL", not to mention that what exactly happened at Red Mountain during Nerevar's time isn't ever properly established, leaving some ambiguity that makes it even better. Having no voice acting means you don't end up having to listen to the same five (Oblivion) or ten (Skyrim) voices for everyone, and can put a lot more detail and amount into what people have to say because you don't have to pay a voice actor for each line.
Also the way things have become much more restricted, you've got less spells, less skills, to the point that Skyrim won't even let you make custom spells, meaning the spells in the game become useless after level 20 or so because enemies are too strong for the weak spell-strength. Levelling obviously is also an annoying thing, particularly Oblivion's glass-wearing highwaymen, but also the fact that there's really no big challenge or particular point in looting. All you'll loot is what you're allowed to loot at your level. Quest compasses are annoying, especially since you can't deactivate them (Skyrim's one reactivates the moment you get any sort of quest update) and since people don't give directions at all, you have to use the quest compass to track down a place that's not marked on the map, with no choice in the matter. Cities must be in their own worldspaces, meaning no levitation (levitation was awesome, especially how Telvanni towers were built basically as a 'if you can't cast a basic levitation spell you don't deserve to go see the Master').
Factions have become pretty bad. Skyrim in particular was terrible with factions that didn't feel like they existed outside of their respective guild hall (c'mon, the College I can understand, but the Companions were supposed to be a famous group solving Skyrim's problems and hunting down monsters, why does no one mention them outside of Whiterun?) or had too many randomly-generated quests or generic quests as opposed to actual proper scripted quests (Dark Brotherhood being a big one that irked me, especially considering Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood had the best quests in the game). Going through factions is also too quick, Morrowind had skill requirements before you could be promoted, meaning you actually had to be able to cast spells to get higher in the Mages' Guild or Telvanni. When I got to Archmagister of the Telvanni, I knew I earned it. And of course, factions have pretty much just become a standard 'Mage Faction', 'Fighter Faction', 'Thieves' Guild', 'Dark Brotherhood', as opposed to the bigger diversity and setting-specific factions Morrowind had with the Imperial Cult, Temple, Great Houses, etc, or Daggerfall with its separate Divine Orders and Knightly Orders. Also strongholds. Seriously, they were awesome. You can have your city houses back, having your own stronghold as leader of a Great House was much cooler.
I complain a lot, but that's not to say I didn't enjoy Oblivion or Skyrim. I mean, Oblivion was the first one I played, and I can't really decide if I like it better than Skyrim or not (partly from nostalgia, partly from Skyrim being so restricted and being unstable the moment any mod is added, I swear). I sunk hundreds of hours into both and still enjoy them, but they're definitely worse than Morrowind.
Post by: Knirisk on July 12, 2012, 09:41:43 am
I feel, essentially, Morrowind = Skyrim > Oblivion. Oblivion not being very far behind the other two.
Morrowind was absolutely thick with lore and just in general a deep world. Some nostalgia is definitely factoring into this, since I, like many, spent quite a few hours on it, years ago.
Negative points have already been stated before. Combat was less than spectacular compared to the later games.
Skyrim recaptured a lot of the depth of world that Morrowind had. Just try walking somewhere without even considering fast travel (I try to avoid using it entirely), and you'll find the world is pretty interesting. There's actually a fair few things out there that entirely lack map markers. There's also no shortage of interesting quests and questlines. I could probably fill an entire post just on the ones I've experienced, and I still have at least 50% of the game to go!
As for Oblivion, I can't say I've actually done very much in it. But just from what I have played, it does have its faults, and I feel places behind Morrowind and Skyrim for them. Not a bad game by far, but compared to the other two, falls behind.
I actually very much like Morrowind and very much like Skyrim. Yes, Skyrim is terribly cliche for an Elder Scrolls game and it was far simplified from the previous games. However, I considered it very fun to play. In fact, in the first 8 or so hours I played, I did not even know about Fast Travel. I had assumed that it would be like Morrowind, so there wouldn't be any fast travel. Furthermore, I had no idea how the carts worked, so I walked everywhere. I remember one memorable journey to Riften from Whiterun, where I decided that I could not pass the river, so I was forced to enter Darkwater Crossing, still fresh in experience. Now that...was interesting. My spellsword Argonian just barely managed to get through alive and on the other side and it required a hell of a lot of saving, sneaking, healing, and care.
In another quest, I trekked all the way from Whiterun through the snowy mountaintops to a location that was near Solitude. Interesting experience and I grabbed a Word along the way.
Honestly? That was completely on par with my experience with Morrowind. For certain areas, yes, they are same-y, especially the plains near Whiterun, but they're about on par with the northern half of Morrowind. God, I hated going to that dry, deserted, barren place. In fact, if I were to compare the two lands, I might actually prefer Skyrim's, just so I don't have to go through the sadness of going through a desolate wasteland for a couple hours. The Urshilaku camp was just terrible. I hated that part. Oh, and not being able to hit a damn mudcrab at the beginning for some characters was pretty annoying.
Although Aequor makes a lot of good points that might sway my opinions.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 10:07:14 am
Also the undercity under Mournhold, and you go deeper and deeper, eventually reaching daedric hidden temple. But that is 7 or 10 levels under normal city floor.
Post by: Ivefan on July 12, 2012, 10:11:05 am
Oblivion and Skyrim is a superficial gaming experience though Skyrim has a nice world atmosphere.
Main reason is the level scaling which made me feel like there's no point in progressing and in a game which intends for you to go dungeon crawling and where the quests is a bland experience, that does not leave much for me to do.
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on July 12, 2012, 10:36:09 am
Also the undercity under MournholdCity of Light! City of magic! (http://dschinghismorrowind.ytmnd.com/)
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 10:56:20 am
Also the undercity under MournholdCity of Light! City of magic! (http://dschinghismorrowind.ytmnd.com/)
!!!WARNING BIG IMAGE!!!
Dance with Hroldar the Strange
(http://i49.tinypic.com/i2iqtj.gif)
Post by: Dariush on July 12, 2012, 11:01:50 am
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 12, 2012, 11:09:23 am
Post by: Cecilff2 on July 12, 2012, 11:28:38 am
-snip-
just a hint for the future [ spoiler] [/ spoiler]
Anyways...Seen any elves? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEfftVsyk_c)
Post by: miauw62 on July 12, 2012, 11:33:50 am
Post by: Cecilff2 on July 12, 2012, 12:13:35 pm
Post by: Kanil on July 12, 2012, 12:28:08 pm
Hah, I was one of the two that picked Oblivion...
...I never got shivering isles for oblivion...
If you really liked Oblivion, you should probably play Shivering Isles. It's absolutely delightful.
Anyway, all three games (haven't played Daggerfall, unfortunately) have their high points and their short comings. I still play Morrowind semi-regularly, the others not so much.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on July 12, 2012, 12:48:15 pm
Post by: The Mechanical Man on July 12, 2012, 01:23:44 pm
First off, let me say I played Oblivion first, then Morrowind, then Daggerfall, then Skyrim.
Oblivion is a lot of fun as a game, but it has some very bad mechanics (level scaling for example) at the same time. Also copy+paste dungeons. It being my first foray into the series, I still love it despite it's shortcomings. One thing I don't like so much looking back is how "mainstream fantasy" Oblivion went- you've got Minotaurs, imps, mithril armor, etc.
Morrowind is the best one, in my opinion. The locations and enemies were unique, but there were still things you could relate with history (the Empire's obvious Roman influences for example). I liked the diversity of skills and how the weapons skills were broken up into several different things (rather than just Blade and Blunt for example). The weapon variety was also good, with spears, throwing knives and stars, darts, crossbows, katanas, tantos, sabres, etc. I also like the non-leveled loot, and the rarity of high-level loot like Daedric (I recall there is only one full set you can get in the game). The unique items were also fun to collect and almost always had unique models. In Oblivion you had forts, caves, and Akaviri ruins; in Morrowind you had more mysterious and exciting locations like Dwemer ruins and Daedric temples.
Daggerfall is okay, I think. I honestly don't understand why people love it so much. I guess the thing that gets me is that everything is just same-y as a result of most of the content being randomly generated. All the cities look the same, all the people look the same, all the dungeons look the same, etc. A big part of The Elder Scrolls was exploration for me, and interesting exploration is impossible with the boring and drab landscape in Daggerfall. It's almost entirely flat and devoid of content. The only variety came from reskins. All the quests I did involved "go kill this monster in a house" or "go kill this monster in a dungeon". And then the game ultimately just turned into a dungeon crawl with me just going to towns in between to sell loot. For me, it was repetitive and boring after maybe 20 hours of gameplay. I did like the variety of skills, however.
I think Skyrim is good, but I'm disappointed with where they've taken some of the mechanics. I was excited for Fallout-style perks, but got what I think is a pretty crappy system instead. There are barely any skills now as well. I like the carriage fast travel system, but don't like how you can't travel via boat like in Morrowind. I would have preferred mostly non-scaling stuff like Morrowind, but the scaling now is at least better than Oblivion. Magic is generally a disappointment as far as variety goes, but the spells that are in the game do look nice. There are some interesting enemies, but mostly I find I'm just fighting bandits, undead, or Falmer. Dragons were definitely a fun addition, and I think they were done well, but at the same time it can get repetitive. I played this much less than Oblivion or Morrowind, and I think it's because there aren't as many roleplaying opportunities as in previous games. I guess overall I would say it is a good game by itself, but doesn't compare well to Morrowind. I do like how the Empire is more Roman-like again, like it was in Morrowind.
Post by: The Mechanical Man on July 12, 2012, 01:24:48 pm
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 12, 2012, 01:25:58 pm
Post by: The Mechanical Man on July 12, 2012, 01:33:36 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 12, 2012, 01:40:58 pm
Post by: Domenique on July 12, 2012, 03:05:42 pm
Post by: Knirisk on July 12, 2012, 03:28:31 pm
I also love the fact that you can steal items, and sell them to a different store, unlike in Oblivion/Skyrim, where everyone magically knows what belongs to who, and that it was stolen.
Yeah, I was irritated when I realized that I couldn't sell all my pickpocketed gems at stores, and pretty much anything at people's houses was worthless unless it was money or could be used in crafting. So sad, because I had become a savescumming kleptomaniac shortly after I started the game.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 03:32:04 pm
I deleted Skyrim when I met a guy in Whiterun who just kept regenerating to full whenever I tried to kill him (something Greyback) after getting his breath back (when he's invulnerable) and Morrowind's graphics make my head ache (literally), so it's Oblivion for me.
Basically it's just one exe file from the net, install it on Morrowind and its expansions and it will look like Oblivion. By the way games should be judged in a certain context. For example Morrowind graphics in its time was the best.
By today standard Skyrim's graphics is just moderate, serious minor changes compared to Oblivion. Why don't they just used Crysis engine or some else? (because it's less profitable, than sell and old engine as new)
Post by: pilgrimboy on July 12, 2012, 03:49:16 pm
Post by: Ivefan on July 12, 2012, 03:49:49 pm
I can't remember. Did Morrowind have level scalling like Oblivion and Skyrim?No.
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 12, 2012, 03:54:48 pm
I deleted Skyrim when I met a guy in Whiterun who just kept regenerating to full whenever I tried to kill him (something Greyback) after getting his breath back (when he's invulnerable) and Morrowind's graphics make my head ache (literally), so it's Oblivion for me.
Basically it's just one exe file from the net, install it on Morrowind and its expansions and it will look like Oblivion.
Nonono. I have that mod for my morrowind. It makes it a lot more digestible, sure, but like oblivion? Lulz.
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 12, 2012, 03:55:11 pm
Sorta.I can't remember. Did Morrowind have level scalling like Oblivion and Skyrim?No.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 03:55:49 pm
I also love the fact that you can steal items, and sell them to a different store, unlike in Oblivion/Skyrim, where everyone magically knows what belongs to who, and that it was stolen.
Yeah, I was irritated when I realized that I couldn't sell all my pickpocketed gems at stores, and pretty much anything at people's houses was worthless unless it was money or could be used in crafting. So sad, because I had become a savescumming kleptomaniac shortly after I started the game.
I know what you are talking about. Basically 30 minutes after character creation: I own all the stuff located in Seyda Neen. STUFF!! WE NEED MORE STUFF!! (remind me of a show of George Carlin)
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 03:58:08 pm
I deleted Skyrim when I met a guy in Whiterun who just kept regenerating to full whenever I tried to kill him (something Greyback) after getting his breath back (when he's invulnerable) and Morrowind's graphics make my head ache (literally), so it's Oblivion for me.
Basically it's just one exe file from the net, install it on Morrowind and its expansions and it will look like Oblivion.
Nonono. I have that mod for my morrowind. It makes it a lot more digestible, sure, but like oblivion? Lulz.
Did you get right one? What changes the hard code, and also enable infinite sight? There is also site what creates the whole continent of Morrowind, with +2000 NPCs and lots of quest. You can actually see what is outside of Mournhold.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 04:00:58 pm
Sorta.I can't remember. Did Morrowind have level scalling like Oblivion and Skyrim?No.
Morrowind basically has 1000 fixed NPCs + a lot fixed monsters and loot, so it is harder for you to get good stuff on level 1 but possible if you are fast and careful to not get yourself killed. But Morrowind also has random monsters wich are leveled, theye are good for rare ingredients, or soulstones.
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 12, 2012, 04:47:59 pm
I deleted Skyrim when I met a guy in Whiterun who just kept regenerating to full whenever I tried to kill him (something Greyback) after getting his breath back (when he's invulnerable) and Morrowind's graphics make my head ache (literally), so it's Oblivion for me.
Basically it's just one exe file from the net, install it on Morrowind and its expansions and it will look like Oblivion.
Nonono. I have that mod for my morrowind. It makes it a lot more digestible, sure, but like oblivion? Lulz.
Did you get right one? What changes the hard code, and also enable infinite sight? There is also site what creates the whole continent of Morrowind, with +2000 NPCs and lots of quest. You can actually see what is outside of Mournhold.
Yeah, that one. Morrowind Graphics Extender, I think it is a great mod, but bringing up the view range to Oblivion levels doesn't make it look as good as Oblivion does. I think it also made water look better, too. That was nice, but again, that's not what makes Oblivion look good.
Morrowind has low-resolution textures, low-poly models, and badly-done animations. That just scratches the surface; Oblivion looked a lot better for one specific reason: Bethesda made specifically to example what TES could look like with new(er) graphic techniques. There's a lot of big differences, and sure, you can shorten the gap if your willing to spend a lot of time getting the right mods for Morrowind, but I don't think we should be comparing a highly-modded Morrowind to vanilla Oblivion.
Post by: Antioch on July 12, 2012, 05:11:46 pm
1. limited lvl scaling, so there are actually interesting places to explore.
2. quests actually require you to use your brain, instead of having the solution shoved down your throat.
Post by: Biag on July 12, 2012, 05:32:05 pm
By the way games should be judged in a certain context. For example Morrowind graphics in its time was the best.
Nope de nope, that doesn't really work for me. I remember thinking Morrowind looked AWESOME the first time I played it, but that doesn't mean the graphics have stood the test of time. Compare Morrowind to, say, Ocarina of Time- in OoT, everything was a little bit cartoony, and they decided to go for an anime/3D hybrid style. In Morrowind, everything is meant to look as real as possible with extremely limited technology, and that shows, most notably in the textures compared to polygon count of character models. I'm not saying I would have preferred a cel-shaded style or whatever, because the style definitely fits the tone they were going for perfectly, but the graphics don't impress me in any meaning of the word.
Also the gameplay. Morrowind is definitely my favorite TES game when it comes to the setting and writing and world map, but the actual gameplay is a total snoozefest for melee characters. Click click click dead. The magic system is cool, the alchemy is fun in a game-breaking kind of way, but when it comes to melee the animations are boring, there's no visual difference between a hit and a miss, there are very few tactical options in a one-on-one fight besides "click more" and "run away," and it just generally gives me a totally empty experience.
And lastly the skill system. There's too much. When I'm playing an RPG, I want to role-play, and I don't want to RP an accountant all the time. Why do there need to be three different blade skills? Is there really an interesting character choice being made when I'm deciding between Long and Medium blades, or Heavy and Medium armor? Shouldn't someone who knows how to move effectively in plate mail have similar knowledge of leather and chain, since you would wear them under plate anyway? Why do I make choices about starting skills in the beginning if those skills still start out ineffective on anything stronger than a mudcrab?
In Morrowind I see a game with a lot of heart and pitiful technical execution. I wish I wanted to play it, but no argument can really change that I don't have fun when I'm playing it, and in my book that makes it a bad game.
Post by: Sordid on July 12, 2012, 05:40:33 pm
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 09:25:37 pm
By the way games should be judged in a certain context. For example Morrowind graphics in its time was the best.
Nope de nope, that doesn't really work for me. I remember thinking Morrowind looked AWESOME the first time I played it, but that doesn't mean the graphics have stood the test of time. Compare Morrowind to, say, Ocarina of Time- in OoT, everything was a little bit cartoony, and they decided to go for an anime/3D hybrid style. In Morrowind, everything is meant to look as real as possible with extremely limited technology, and that shows, most notably in the textures compared to polygon count of character models. I'm not saying I would have preferred a cel-shaded style or whatever, because the style definitely fits the tone they were going for perfectly, but the graphics don't impress me in any meaning of the word.
Also the gameplay. Morrowind is definitely my favorite TES game when it comes to the setting and writing and world map, but the actual gameplay is a total snoozefest for melee characters. Click click click dead. The magic system is cool, the alchemy is fun in a game-breaking kind of way, but when it comes to melee the animations are boring, there's no visual difference between a hit and a miss, there are very few tactical options in a one-on-one fight besides "click more" and "run away," and it just generally gives me a totally empty experience.
And lastly the skill system. There's too much. When I'm playing an RPG, I want to role-play, and I don't want to RP an accountant all the time. Why do there need to be three different blade skills? Is there really an interesting character choice being made when I'm deciding between Long and Medium blades, or Heavy and Medium armor? Shouldn't someone who knows how to move effectively in plate mail have similar knowledge of leather and chain, since you would wear them under plate anyway? Why do I make choices about starting skills in the beginning if those skills still start out ineffective on anything stronger than a mudcrab?
In Morrowind I see a game with a lot of heart and pitiful technical execution. I wish I wanted to play it, but no argument can really change that I don't have fun when I'm playing it, and in my book that makes it a bad game.
I don't give a fuck about the combat system, for me Skyrim got boring after 1 hour, despite its "superior" combat system and graphics. Morrowind is all about choices, the attributes are there to have a meaning of responsibility, you can't be good at everything, just like in real life. This is not a Skyrim like rape fest, where you basically beat the game in a few hours without cheats or exploits. Ask a medieval Knight how he could at anytime turn into an Archer. He may had knowledge about other armors (by the way armor padding under plate is NOT leather or any kind of armor that you are thinking about), but that doesn't mean he had the knowledge to EFFECTIVELY use them. Putting on an armor is not a 1 second act in real life, if you put on wrong, it will have more weaknesses, don't protect you as much. This is reflected in the skill system, you can use any armor, an unfamiliar will not protect you as well. This out weights the advantage of equipping armors in a blink of an eye. Like in everything it takes time to become a master, that is why rats killed most people after a new game.
In an RPG I want roleplay, Morrowind gave me more, Oblivion gave me less, Skyrim gave me none.
ps.: Bethesda what the fuck are you thinking? 6 times more HDD and 6 times less content?
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 12, 2012, 09:34:29 pm
Being like real life means absolutely nothing. It means so little of nothing that simply bringing it up drives me to make this post. I don't care about realism. I don't care if you have to restrict your choices and have to get specific skills to do well. I want the freedom to make a character that smashes things with a mace and throws lighting with the other hand before putting on an artifact armor despite being the wrong type for my skill. To just wear clothes as a fighter character and have it be viable.
I want to roleplay without the clunky mechanics holding me back.
Post by: BuriBuriZaemon on July 12, 2012, 09:55:44 pm
Also this thread can be summed up as:
Person A states his opinion.
Person B states his opinion that is opposite of that of Person A.
Person A states his opinion on why Person B's opinion is invalid.
Person A states his opinion on why Person A's opinion that Person's B opinion is invalid is invalid.
And so on.
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 12, 2012, 10:35:35 pm
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 10:38:31 pm
That's... pretty silly mate. Just ask my five themed roleplay characters who all have distinct different playstyles and quests completed in their own unique ways.
Being like real life means absolutely nothing. It means so little of nothing that simply bringing it up drives me to make this post. I don't care about realism. I don't care if you have to restrict your choices and have to get specific skills to do well. I want the freedom to make a character that smashes things with a mace and throws lighting with the other hand before putting on an artifact armor despite being the wrong type for my skill. To just wear clothes as a fighter character and have it be viable.
I want to roleplay without the clunky mechanics holding me back.
The exact opposite, Morrowind doesn't hold you back to do that, it only means that you have basic limits like you can win the game in 1 second, and can't blow up the continent. You could be a necromancer with a horde of undead, wearing plate mail, and use crossbow. However if you want be like that you have to pay the price, unusual character are harder to master.
On the contrary in Skyrim you couldn't really be anything but a shouting, dragon killing barbarian, what gets old fast. I can even finish the Morrowind main story 3 different ways, let alone the thousands of faction quests. Or is it hard to shallow, that you have mission what make you unable to do a mission of an enemy faction?
In Morrowind you have your choices. In Skyrim you have your directions.
ps.: he was the one who pressed the real life stuff by saying, in real life you wear light armor under heavy, then why do we have multiple armor types in the game, and why don't a heavy instanly knows light armor too.
pss.: play Calvinball if you like really unrestricted games
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 10:46:22 pm
I greatly dislike Morrowind's leveling mechanics but other features are better than Oblivion and Skyrim.
Also this thread can be summed up as:
Person A states his opinion.
Person B states his opinion that is opposite of that of Person A.
Person A states his opinion on why Person B's opinion is invalid.
Person A states his opinion on why Person A's opinion that Person's B opinion is invalid is invalid.
And so on.
My friend the whole history of our species is about arguments. Without different arguments a group for example could come to the conclusion that their view is the most perfect and the only one. This would only mean that their chance of survival in an unfamiliar situation is lower. However if there are two or more group that stimulate each other, this can be avoided. For instance see why Europe the continent wich was the second last to be settled, got conquered almost all of the world. Europe is the most divided continent, this gives many small defendable areas, that give rise to many nations, topple that with climate: four season that require the most ingenuity, because of the constantly changing, but not too demanding environment (like the arctic or a desert).
ps.: I only started to play Morrowind, because its leveling was unique and unusual compared to the casual grind for xp on monsters.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 12, 2012, 10:48:30 pm
Also, there was no reason to remove the Unarmed and Medium Armor skills, Bethesda.
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 12, 2012, 10:52:01 pm
Also, I like how I can look up Morrowind on google and get this thread.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 10:54:18 pm
Unarmed was fun. Medium armor wasn't fun at all, it was only redundant.
Also, I like how I can look up Morrowind on google and get this thread.
Maybe redundant, but it could give you a challange to collect all the best medium armor. Nothing worse like creating a challange to play Adventure Mode as a pacifist, or build a fortress without digging.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 10:57:28 pm
Objectively speaking, Morrowind is the best Elder Scrolls game and any opinion to the contrary is wrong.
Also, there was no reason to remove the Unarmed and Medium Armor skills, Bethesda.
Basically they could have just made a few perks like in Oblivion for skills, like medium armor would give you some unique advantage. For example like the balance in Star Craft between the three races. There should be no best builds, but different builds, that have a "high score" differently. As I said there are good aspects in the first 4 TES games (even if a few in Arena), that could have been all collected, and made into the fifth game.
Post by: Biag on July 12, 2012, 10:59:14 pm
That's... pretty silly mate. Just ask my five themed roleplay characters who all have distinct different playstyles and quests completed in their own unique ways.
Being like real life means absolutely nothing. It means so little of nothing that simply bringing it up drives me to make this post. I don't care about realism. I don't care if you have to restrict your choices and have to get specific skills to do well. I want the freedom to make a character that smashes things with a mace and throws lighting with the other hand before putting on an artifact armor despite being the wrong type for my skill. To just wear clothes as a fighter character and have it be viable.
I want to roleplay without the clunky mechanics holding me back.
The exact opposite, Morrowind doesn't hold you back to do that, it only means that you have basic limits like you can win the game in 1 second, and can't blow up the continent. You could be a necromancer with a horde of undead, wearing plate mail, and use crossbow. However if you want be like that you have to pay the price, unusual character are harder to master.
On the contrary in Skyrim you couldn't really be anything but a shouting, dragon killing barbarian, what gets old fast. I can even finish the Morrowind main story 3 different ways, let alone the thousands of faction quests. Or is it hard to shallow, that you have mission what make you unable to do a mission of an enemy faction?
In Morrowind you have your choices. In Skyrim you have your directions.
ps.: he was the one who pressed the real life stuff by saying, in real life you wear light armor under heavy, then why do we have multiple armor types in the game, and why don't a heavy instanly knows light armor too.
I don't mean "Why wouldn't a plate mail wearer be an expert in leather," I mean "Why is that such an interesting choice that it is worth restricting the player's freedom?" Were I arguing on a "realism" basis, I would point out characters in all Bethesda games can wear the heaviest armor in the world indefinitely without suffering from heat stroke or exhaustion or dehydration. But I don't care about that, because that would not be a fun addition to the game.
I agree with Duke. I love roleplaying. When I get the chance to actually effectively play a character in an RPG it makes me all giddy and fuzzy inside. But my character is not interesting because I had to pick between Strength and Dexterity, my character is interesting because I have a self-imposed rule that my character only has one arm and so I can only ever have one one-handed item equipped. Or my character is interesting because I've decided he hates magic and he kills all magic-users on sight. Or my character is interesting because he is magically bound to never lethally harm another living being and so relies entirely on fists and summoned creatures.
Skyrim was a little too liberal with the number of invincible characters, and I found that extremely frustrating a few times. But even though Morrowind gives me more control over the game world, Skyrim gives me more control over my own character.
Also, like I said, Morrowind isn't fun for me and Skyrim is. We are each free to have our own experiences and they are equally valid.
NINJA EDIT: Fuck yeah though, I want unarmed back. Although the Skyrim VIKING!!! Challenge is still pretty great in an unintended way.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 12, 2012, 11:00:45 pm
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 12, 2012, 11:05:43 pm
Unarmed was fun. Medium armor wasn't fun at all, it was only redundant.
Also, I like how I can look up Morrowind on google and get this thread.
Maybe redundant, but it could give you a challange to collect all the best medium armor. Nothing worse like creating a challange to play Adventure Mode as a pacifist, or build a fortress without digging.
Alright, I'm not seeing how this in an argument to keep medium armor though. If the goal is simply to collect it, why would it matter if the label over the armor said medium or heavy? In gameplay terms it was only redundant. One of the better decisions Bethesda made in Oblivion was to remove it.
You know its bad when the best argument you have for keeping an item is that it might be fun to pick it up. I'm sure Bethesda knew this too.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 11:31:00 pm
Unarmed was fun. Medium armor wasn't fun at all, it was only redundant.
Also, I like how I can look up Morrowind on google and get this thread.
Maybe redundant, but it could give you a challange to collect all the best medium armor. Nothing worse like creating a challange to play Adventure Mode as a pacifist, or build a fortress without digging.
Alright, I'm not seeing how this in an argument to keep medium armor though. If the goal is simply to collect it, why would it matter if the label over the armor said medium or heavy? In gameplay terms it was only redundant. One of the better decisions Bethesda made in Oblivion was to remove it.
You know its bad when the best argument you have for keeping an item is that it might be fun to pick it up. I'm sure Bethesda knew this too.
That is why I said this too
Quote
Basically they could have just made a few perks like in Oblivion for skills, like medium armor would give you some unique advantage. For example like the balance in Star Craft between the three races. There should be no best builds, but different builds, that have a "high score" differently. As I said there are good aspects in the first 4 TES games (even if a few in Arena), that could have been all collected, and made into the fifth game.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 11:44:09 pm
That's... pretty silly mate. Just ask my five themed roleplay characters who all have distinct different playstyles and quests completed in their own unique ways.
Being like real life means absolutely nothing. It means so little of nothing that simply bringing it up drives me to make this post. I don't care about realism. I don't care if you have to restrict your choices and have to get specific skills to do well. I want the freedom to make a character that smashes things with a mace and throws lighting with the other hand before putting on an artifact armor despite being the wrong type for my skill. To just wear clothes as a fighter character and have it be viable.
I want to roleplay without the clunky mechanics holding me back.
The exact opposite, Morrowind doesn't hold you back to do that, it only means that you have basic limits like you can win the game in 1 second, and can't blow up the continent. You could be a necromancer with a horde of undead, wearing plate mail, and use crossbow. However if you want be like that you have to pay the price, unusual character are harder to master.
On the contrary in Skyrim you couldn't really be anything but a shouting, dragon killing barbarian, what gets old fast. I can even finish the Morrowind main story 3 different ways, let alone the thousands of faction quests. Or is it hard to shallow, that you have mission what make you unable to do a mission of an enemy faction?
In Morrowind you have your choices. In Skyrim you have your directions.
ps.: he was the one who pressed the real life stuff by saying, in real life you wear light armor under heavy, then why do we have multiple armor types in the game, and why don't a heavy instanly knows light armor too.
I don't mean "Why wouldn't a plate mail wearer be an expert in leather," I mean "Why is that such an interesting choice that it is worth restricting the player's freedom?" Were I arguing on a "realism" basis, I would point out characters in all Bethesda games can wear the heaviest armor in the world indefinitely without suffering from heat stroke or exhaustion or dehydration. But I don't care about that, because that would not be a fun addition to the game.
I agree with Duke. I love roleplaying. When I get the chance to actually effectively play a character in an RPG it makes me all giddy and fuzzy inside. But my character is not interesting because I had to pick between Strength and Dexterity, my character is interesting because I have a self-imposed rule that my character only has one arm and so I can only ever have one one-handed item equipped. Or my character is interesting because I've decided he hates magic and he kills all magic-users on sight. Or my character is interesting because he is magically bound to never lethally harm another living being and so relies entirely on fists and summoned creatures.
Skyrim was a little too liberal with the number of invincible characters, and I found that extremely frustrating a few times. But even though Morrowind gives me more control over the game world, Skyrim gives me more control over my own character.
Also, like I said, Morrowind isn't fun for me and Skyrim is. We are each free to have our own experiences and they are equally valid.
NINJA EDIT: Fuck yeah though, I want unarmed back. Although the Skyrim VIKING!!! Challenge is still pretty great in an unintended way.
I didn't told you: my favourite Race was always Nords (I am "nord" in real life too, Pale Pass was my favourite mission in Oblivion), so I was over-excited when I saw Skyrim is coming out. That is why I bash it the most. Too much hype to just buy another Fallout. By way because of what you said I am even more convinced, that Morrowind (despite it's semi-turn based system), gives more freedom to control your character. You can make unique spells, armor, weapons. In Skyrim spells worth shit. And perks are not consistent, they just produce a mish mash character, like in Fallout 3, a character that I couldn't place in a fantasy world. Maybe it's just me, but I think a few special abilities that are very well balanced, are better, than 100, that has 5 über perks, what everybody use, because they are the best, and ignor all the others (it's like the refined talent trees in WoW and the skill trees in Diablo 2, there are best combination, and these are only change when they nerf one a bit, then everybody sticks to another). I especially hated in Fallout 3 too, when the game forced you to pick a useless perk, because you couldn't upgrade one of your existing perks yet. And Skyrim headed in the direction of an offline WoW, I like to creat character that suck, not intentionally, but to experiment, however the Skyrim system support it less.
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on July 12, 2012, 11:45:36 pm
Removing features doesn't make a game better. Removing customization options, doesn't make a game better. Thinking like that is why skyrim had 16 skills, and morrowind had 27. Why morrowind had 7 weapon skills and skyrim had 3.Unarmed was fun. Medium armor wasn't fun at all, it was only redundant.
Also, I like how I can look up Morrowind on google and get this thread.
Maybe redundant, but it could give you a challange to collect all the best medium armor. Nothing worse like creating a challange to play Adventure Mode as a pacifist, or build a fortress without digging.
Alright, I'm not seeing how this in an argument to keep medium armor though. If the goal is simply to collect it, why would it matter if the label over the armor said medium or heavy? In gameplay terms it was only redundant. One of the better decisions Bethesda made in Oblivion was to remove it.
You know its bad when the best argument you have for keeping an item is that it might be fun to pick it up. I'm sure Bethesda knew this too.
I find it funny that you think skyrim is somehow giving you more freedom while taking away almost all the customization and freedom earlier games had.
Post by: towerdude on July 12, 2012, 11:48:04 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 12, 2012, 11:51:32 pm
Post by: Knirisk on July 12, 2012, 11:52:30 pm
Previously, I had abstained from voting in the poll just because I liked Skyrim, too, but man, once that Morrowind exploration music hit, Skyrim just had no chance. Morrowind is too great of a game.
Post by: Kaitol on July 12, 2012, 11:53:10 pm
More skills, more choices, more choices, more replayability. More is very nearly ALWAYS better in sandbox games. Whereas the Elderscrolls series seems to be getting less and less with each game. Character customization, aside from physical appearance, is nearly completely gone.
Also +1 for Daggerfall For good vanilla Vampire mechanics, lots of factions, and the awesome paperdoll that was so much fun to dress your characters up. Plus an interesting storyline with multiple endings. (And how they explained how those worked lorewise in later games rofl) Plus that game was SCARY. There were enemies that would mess your shit up no matter how godly you thought you were. Whearas Morrowind I just lol'd at everything in my fully enchanted custom named deadric armor + daedric dai-katana of pure awesomeness. *made from the souls of gods and immortals*
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 13, 2012, 12:00:28 am
Why Keep Medium armor in the Game? Why NOT keep it in the game? It adds to replayability and differentiates characters more. "Oh, I rolled a Heavy Armor Ax warrior last time? Maybe this time I will be a Medium Armor Swordsman."
More skills, more choices, more choices, more replayability. More is very nearly ALWAYS better in sandbox games. Whereas the Elderscrolls series seems to be getting less and less with each game. Character customization, aside from physical appearance, is nearly completely gone.
Removing features doesn't make a game better. Removing customization options, doesn't make a game better. Thinking like that is why skyrim had 16 skills, and morrowind had 27. Why morrowind had 7 weapon skills and skyrim had 3.
Having a bunch of shitty options doesn't make a better sandbox. I'd rather have a couple fleshed-out options then a bunch of junk. Morrowind had a LOT of "junk".
Believe it or not, removing features can make a game better. Did it work for Oblivion or Skyrim? Maybe not. But that doesn't mean you should keep every feature you can for the sake of "choice".
Post by: towerdude on July 13, 2012, 12:01:39 am
I'm pretty sure almost no one has ever played Arena.
<Raises hand quetly, while thinking about rats eating character first time, then getting lost in the Imperial City among the clones, never finding Bumbul's lost daughter.>
Post by: towerdude on July 13, 2012, 12:02:23 am
Why Keep Medium armor in the Game? Why NOT keep it in the game? It adds to replayability and differentiates characters more. "Oh, I rolled a Heavy Armor Ax warrior last time? Maybe this time I will be a Medium Armor Swordsman."
More skills, more choices, more choices, more replayability. More is very nearly ALWAYS better in sandbox games. Whereas the Elderscrolls series seems to be getting less and less with each game. Character customization, aside from physical appearance, is nearly completely gone.Removing features doesn't make a game better. Removing customization options, doesn't make a game better. Thinking like that is why skyrim had 16 skills, and morrowind had 27. Why morrowind had 7 weapon skills and skyrim had 3.
Having a bunch of shitty options doesn't make a better sandbox. I'd rather half a couple fleshed-out options then a bunch of junk. Morrowind had a LOT of "junk".
Believe it or not, removing features can make a game better. Did it work for Oblivion or Skyrim? Maybe not. But that doesn't mean you should keep every feature you can for the sake of "choice".
So having junk perks is not the same? By the way spears were also removed, despite they were more effective against heavy armor.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 12:04:20 am
Oblivion and Skyrim are just so....lifeless by comparison. Morrowind feels rich.
I need to go buy that GOTY Morrowind box I saw at Best Buy now...
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 13, 2012, 12:12:31 am
So having junk perks is not the same? By the way spears were also removed, despite they were more effective against heavy armor.
Junk perks were just as bad. I'm not a Skyrim fan.
Post by: Knirisk on July 13, 2012, 12:15:43 am
Morrowind had a lot of junk, and I love that. Do you know how much stuff in Morrowind I did to just do it? I barely even paid attention to the real quests a lot of the time and just ran around doing whatever struck me at the moment. I did this for dozens of hours and spent every moment amused.
Oblivion and Skyrim are just so....lifeless by comparison. Morrowind feels rich.
I need to go buy that GOTY Morrowind box I saw at Best Buy now...
Meh, don't go to Best Buy. Morrowind GOTY frequently comes up during Steam Sales. I got it for like around $5 at a Steam Christmas sale. In case you want to use MGE, there's a Steam workaround fix just a quick Google search away.
That said, I'm following the (perhaps a bit outdated) guide here to beautify Morrowind: http://morrowind2009.wordpress.com/
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 12:17:42 am
Post by: Frumple on July 13, 2012, 12:23:08 am
I'm pretty sure almost no one has ever played Arena.I played it for about ten minutes, I think. It's free nowadays, which is something. I don't remember much besides not liking something about the interface that led me to put it down for a bit. Then promptly forget about it, o'course.
I still haven't played anything past morrowind. I'd kinda' like to play skyrim just to wonder around in it... I know the graphics aren't supposed to be particularly spectacular these days, but I think currently the prettiest thing I've played to date is D&D online. Watching some LP's made it look pretty damn beautiful, which is something. Similarly, oblivion looks like it might be interesting after getting the ever-loving modded out of it. I hear it's pretty solid once it's been fan-content mangled into better shape.
Post by: lemon10 on July 13, 2012, 12:43:09 am
It was rare, and not in a unique kind of rare but a "Hey can I ever find more then a single set of these things", didn't really fit into a niche (which led to it being harder to classify as medium so that it could be put it), and screwed anyone who tried to use it as a main armor type without knowing how it was nearly useless.
It could have worked fine in Oblivion if they had fixed the problem of it being rare, and given it a real niche somehow (I have no clue how though), but since it didn't actually add anything and actually detracted from the game, not having it in Oblivion was a good design decision.
Skyrim had much better combat (which is a huge thing that makes a ton of difference) and graphics, and was far more streamlined and easy to learn.
That is about it going for Skyrim, however Morrowind wins in pretty much everything else: Rare items actually meaning something (rather then everything being equally random and not unique at all), artifacts actually being useful, spell differentiation, awesome enchantment, awesome effects, story, music, dungeons (IMHO), easter eggs, factions actually meaning something, story (again). And about a dozen other things as well.
The thing I remember most about Morrowind is the music, just starting the music up now just hits me right in the gut.
Post by: Domenique on July 13, 2012, 12:56:06 am
I'm pretty sure almost no one has ever played Arena.I played it for about ten minutes, I think. It's free nowadays, which is something. I don't remember much besides not liking something about the interface that led me to put it down for a bit. Then promptly forget about it, o'course.
I still haven't played anything past morrowind. I'd kinda' like to play skyrim just to wonder around in it... I know the graphics aren't supposed to be particularly spectacular these days, but I think currently the prettiest thing I've played to date is D&D online. Watching some LP's made it look pretty damn beautiful, which is something. Similarly, oblivion looks like it might be interesting after getting the ever-loving modded out of it. I hear it's pretty solid once it's been fan-content mangled into better shape.
It's free for quite a long time now, I remember playing it because I couldn't find Morrowind anywhere. It's sort of Meh, not really bad, but not something spectacular.
Medium armor in morrowind was terribly executed.
It was rare, and not in a unique kind of rare but a "Hey can I ever find more then a single set of these things", didn't really fit into a niche (which led to it being harder to classify as medium so that it could be put it), and screwed anyone who tried to use it as a main armor type without knowing how it was nearly useless.
Unbalanced? Yes, very much so, but still usable. I would almost always roll an odball with medium armor and spear, and finish the game wihtout much difficulty. The other armor options are better, but not by far.
Post by: towerdude on July 13, 2012, 12:59:09 am
That would be just great if I could buy things through Steam, but I can't buy things through Steam or any other digital distribution service.
I had Morrowind for 2 years on my hand, included for free with a video card. However I only realized how awsome it is after I accidentally found it, in 2004.
Post by: lemon10 on July 13, 2012, 01:15:37 am
I suppose I'm not giving it a fair rap, because I never really tried using it. But the proportions of heavy and light were about equal, while medium was left out in the cold in terms of number of sets, and excluding the expansion sets, which were pretty great, medium armor A) weighed more then glass and B) was had worse armor then glass and C) was about as protective as the beast heavy armor. I know its not quite fair to exclude the expansions, but getting the base game (not really a concern now however since you pretty much get the expansions with it guaranteed) and having something thats worse in every single respect then light is rather annoying.Medium armor in morrowind was terribly executed.
It was rare, and not in a unique kind of rare but a "Hey can I ever find more then a single set of these things", didn't really fit into a niche (which led to it being harder to classify as medium so that it could be put it), and screwed anyone who tried to use it as a main armor type without knowing how it was nearly useless.
Unbalanced? Yes, very much so, but still usable. I would almost always roll an odball with medium armor and spear, and finish the game wihtout much difficulty. The other armor options are better, but not by far.
That said, the game was easy, even if you did choose medium armor vs the other better choices.
They could have improved medium to make it competitive, but they chose to remove it because (in morrowind at least), it didn't really add anything useful (mainly cause they didn't balance it well enough though).
Post by: alexandertnt on July 13, 2012, 02:00:44 am
Besides, who played Morrowind for the gameplay mechanics?
Also, Skyrim's focus on Nords was a negative point for me. I did not want to run around as a half-naked barbarian with a fake-viking helmet, slaying dragons
One thing I always liked about the Elder Scrolls series in general was less restrictions. In some games, a mage user (for example) cannot wield a sword, as in the game stops you from doing it. I know its a crappy idea and is pointless, but the mere existance of restrictions like these hurt games for me. In Elder Scrolls, you could do stuped-pointless things. Sometimes stuped-pointless things are fun to do. Sometimes having the mere ability to do stuped-pointless things adds to a game.
As for Morrowind Graphics Extender, It adds Anti-Alasing, Bloom, render-distance tweaking, AI distance tweaking, and all sorts of extras. Add texture replacers and mesh replacers, and Morrowind can end up looking reasonably modern. (Except for the animations. They remain painful).
Post by: MrWiggles on July 13, 2012, 02:10:07 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 02:17:47 am
Post by: Supercharazad on July 13, 2012, 02:27:28 am
Don't get me wrong, Morrowind was a far better game overall due to immersion and creativity then Oblicion or Skyrim, but seriously?
Medium armour was so stupidly inferoir that you were a fool to use it.
The Combat system was simply shit, being that you could hit someone ten times while connecting, but not doing damage due to dice rolls.
"Limitations so that you can't beat the game in one second"? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA! In Oblivion and Skyrim, you do the Main Quest over a reasonable period of time. In Morrowind, you become the human singularity with alchemy and enchanting and suddenly have enough stats to one-hit anything while laughing as they try to defeat your 100% constant sanctuary enchantments.
Now, I will say, Morrowind was the best TES game I have ever played. Oblivion was the worst. Skyrim was very close behind Morrowind.
Why? Skyrim may have dumbed down practically everything, but with crafting and the like added (and with mods), it still feels like it's a good game. I'm sorry, but did any of you like being forced to grind one skill for ages so that when you levelled up you could get the 5+ bonus which would be lost forever if you didn't? What about basic Greek and European mythology creatures to fight? The story for Oblivion was just "I KILL WORLD BECAUSE I EEVVVVVVIIIIIIILLLLLLL" with a bit of "We kill you because we are MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKSSSSS!"
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 02:33:19 am
Post by: Haspen on July 13, 2012, 02:39:03 am
-Dwarven steampunkish ruins
-Actually no restrictions (except killing important NPC's... well okay, you can still kill most/all of them after you get through Main Quest!)
-Interesting atmosphere; I rarely see a game that gives you a ride on giant insects or wizards living in mushroom towers
-Dwarven steampunkish ruins
-So many hidden caves and tombs and whatnots to explore
-Ton of things to collect (BOOOOOKS)
-Did I mention dwarven steampunkish ruins?
I'm still role-playing Morrowind in many ways. I had Dark Elf Supermage, then Redguard Panzerman who used magic only as tools (open, levitate, teleport etc.), then Cyrodiil Lady-diplomat-assasin, and now this Nord Battle-Nun who delivers love of the Temple with compliments and/or hammerings.
I also impose self-challenges on myself, like 'don't steal anything from cities' or 'don't kill animals'*. I still need to hit 'boredom' border in this game.
...Actually, I'm gonna play now :3
*Except Cliff Racers. Cliff Racers can go die in hell.
Post by: Ivefan on July 13, 2012, 03:53:35 am
"Limitations so that you can't beat the game in one second"? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA! In Oblivion and Skyrim, you do the Main Quest over a reasonable period of time. In Morrowind, you become the human singularity with alchemy and enchanting and suddenly have enough stats to one-hit anything while laughing as they try to defeat your 100% constant sanctuary enchantments.I remember finishing the main quest of oblivion before hitting level 5 without even needing to become a "human singularity".
Post by: Blizzlord on July 13, 2012, 04:30:04 am
Post by: Baijiu on July 13, 2012, 06:30:25 am
Post by: pilgrimboy on July 13, 2012, 06:53:10 am
Post by: The Mechanical Man on July 13, 2012, 07:02:38 am
I'm sorry, but did any of you like being forced to grind one skill for ages so that when you levelled up you could get the 5+ bonus which would be lost forever if you didn't?
I've always hated that argument. Yes, the mechanic was broken, but I never grinded just for a stupid 5+ bonus. I was never forced to play that way. I just played the game naturally and whatever bonuses I got when I leveled up I went with. It was never a big deal to me, it never negatively affected my character, and I think anyone who puts so much time and organization into just leveling up isn't really experiencing the game in the best way.
Post by: Sonlirain on July 13, 2012, 07:14:09 am
Daggerfall - Was too complicated for me at the time so i gave up on it while i still had a dagger in hand.
Redgard - Literally played it for 5 minutes and quit because my PC at the time had serious problems with playing it with more than 15 FPS.
Morrowind - Played as a Orc with Axe and Shield and Redgard with 2h sword.
For obvious reasons i liked the last most however i never managed to understand... how the hell can you play as a Thief/Assasin there? I barely managed to crash through dungeons/caves with a sociopath Orc/Redgard in heavy armor then how am i expected to do it with a assasin that can't (in my experience) oneshot anything from behind while sneaking.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on July 13, 2012, 08:48:57 am
So for anyone who doesnt have ALL of these games go throw your money at valve and bethesda!
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 13, 2012, 09:10:59 am
Post by: Dutchling on July 13, 2012, 09:12:55 am
I once stole an awesome golden helmet in Vivec, which I couldn't even wear because I was an Argonian. That didn't stop all the guards from running after me and trying to kill them though. I eventually lost them in the maze that Vivec is (read: guards can't use doors). After that I spent days sneaking through the different compounds of the city stealing things of the commoners (they never attacked me but insulted me every time they saw me). I don't know what I did after that, I probably got myself killed by a guardsman, but I was pretty awesome.
I have never experienced such a thing in any of the other games. Although I can't say I've ever completed the main quest in any of them either. In Arena I never actually got out of the starting dungeon.
And is medium armour really that rare? Bonemeal is medium iirc and that seemed to be everywhere. Hell, the first thing I did was often to take the giant insect to some city with a lot of ashstorms (Ruhn?) and steal bonemeal armour from the guard towers.
Post by: Haspen on July 13, 2012, 09:20:07 am
And few other, more exotic and more rare.
Also there's that artifact Cuirass that's pretty neat on it's own.
Post by: Teneb on July 13, 2012, 10:37:11 am
There we quite a few medium sets, actually (not as much as the other two skills, but still), so I never really found what was the problem some people had with it.
Voted for Morrowind, of course. Mechanics-wise it may not be the best, but the enviroment is simply wonderful.
Post by: Silfurdreki on July 13, 2012, 10:42:07 am
It should also be noted here that I never played Daggerfall or Arena, so I can't comment on the quality of those.
Now, I'm not saying Morrowind is the epitome of TES in all areas, for instance, the alchemy system was improved in Oblivion (and then subsequently worsened in Skyrim, though that's mostly because of the lobotomizing of the magic system). The magic system in Morrowind is still one of my favourite magic systems of all time. It's incredibly versatile and varied and has been continuously worsened by removing chunks of it in Oblivion and Skyrim.
I think a bit contributor to the fact that quests are more soulless in Oblivion and Skyrim is that they started doing full voice acting. It's just so much easier telling a compelling story and building an interesting world with more text. Full voice acting means that all descriptions of the world have to be short and all the little every day pieces of information that made the world come alive that was in Morrowind had to be cut.
Bethesda needs to get their act together and find a good character progression system for the TES games, though. Overhauling the system for Skyrim was a good decision, I think. However, the system Skyrim ended up with has different problems from the Morriwind/Oblivion systems and those problems are arguably equally bad. While the Morrowind/Oblivion system was a complicated mess that actually rewarded not using your primary skills, Skyrims stat-less system feels soulless and arbitrary and suffers from a lack of a feeling of progression.
Overall, I've enjoyed Morriwnd the most, closely followed by Skyrim and pretty far behind them, Oblivion. The only part of Oblivion with any actual atmosphere or character (I never played Shivering Isles, I hear that's pretty good as well) was the Dark Brotherhood questline.
Post by: Supercharazad on July 13, 2012, 10:45:29 am
Post by: towerdude on July 13, 2012, 11:11:10 am
Towerdude this bit is directed specifically at you:
Don't get me wrong, Morrowind was a far better game overall due to immersion and creativity then Oblicion or Skyrim, but seriously?
Medium armour was so stupidly inferoir that you were a fool to use it.
The Combat system was simply shit, being that you could hit someone ten times while connecting, but not doing damage due to dice rolls.
"Limitations so that you can't beat the game in one second"? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA! In Oblivion and Skyrim, you do the Main Quest over a reasonable period of time. In Morrowind, you become the human singularity with alchemy and enchanting and suddenly have enough stats to one-hit anything while laughing as they try to defeat your 100% constant sanctuary enchantments.
Now, I will say, Morrowind was the best TES game I have ever played. Oblivion was the worst. Skyrim was very close behind Morrowind.
Why? Skyrim may have dumbed down practically everything, but with crafting and the like added (and with mods), it still feels like it's a good game. I'm sorry, but did any of you like being forced to grind one skill for ages so that when you levelled up you could get the 5+ bonus which would be lost forever if you didn't? What about basic Greek and European mythology creatures to fight? The story for Oblivion was just "I KILL WORLD BECAUSE I EEVVVVVVIIIIIIILLLLLLL" with a bit of "We kill you because we are MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKSSSSS!"
So you say that you can complete Morrowind with an exploit in 1 second, I say you can complete Skyrim in 1 second WITHOUT an exploit. I for example never knew it existed even for the first three times I played a character. And even if I knew, I wouldn't use it, it don't give the feeling of accomplishment, what the main quest gives. Not the ending is important, but the time to get there. The combat system was good for me, I can't get tired of killing Cliff Racers from flying horses, with one hit (100 blunt), Veloth's Judgement anyone? Medium armor is only inferior in vanilla, the expnasion actually make it stronger, than the strongest type of light armor, and lighter than the strongest type of heavy armor, besides can you decide wich is more tasty? Ebonite mail or Dragonbone? Also I never actually cared about those attribute multiplier very much, if I had 4 or 3 it was good also, it doesn't restricted me in any way, there are unlimited levels in Morrowind, so you lose nothing, besides even if you reach 100 with your main skill, you can still lower them to level up. Go to jail, get a curse or drink a poison. Oblivion was better for me thn Skyrim, because it was the first time I got out of the sewers and saw a mountain range, I just said, okay I go there, then started to climb the mountain and looked back at from where I came. Also the Dark Brotherhood quests were quite good, the fighter guild's too (however the mage guild's was a disappointment, I imagined Mannimarco as some tough shit skeleton king, covered by worms, yet it was just a one hit Dark Elf), LOL I remember first time out of my conscience, I killed Lucien, and took his robe, not realizing this ruined the greatest mission lines in the game.
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 13, 2012, 11:19:25 am
Post by: Cecilff2 on July 13, 2012, 11:19:37 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfmdl9-tnSU
Post by: Sordid on July 13, 2012, 12:05:19 pm
Indoril armor is not a good idea unless you want every ordinator in the island trying to kill you.
There we quite a few medium sets, actually (not as much as the other two skills, but still), so I never really found what was the problem some people had with it.
The Ordinators would only attack you if you spoke to them while wearing it. And there was never any reason to talk to one, so I never had a problem with it.
Armor was a purely aesthetic choice in MW. With a few magic trinkets you'd be practically invincible even in ordinary clothes, even relying only on magic trinkets that you found. Doubly so if you actually made your own.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on July 13, 2012, 12:11:47 pm
You can also beat Oblivion in roughly 15 minute via exploit.
Mace of doom anyone?
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 13, 2012, 12:16:05 pm
Post by: towerdude on July 13, 2012, 12:32:10 pm
Dude, tower, breathe man. You'll pass out if you don't take a breath.
Yo, how did you know I do breathing exercises, during commenting?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 12:45:28 pm
The only part of Oblivion with any actual atmosphere or character (I never played Shivering Isles, I hear that's pretty good as well) was the Dark Brotherhood questline.[Remain Silent]
(Shivering Isles was awesome. Even if you took away all of the good stuff except for Sheogorath's voice acting and dialogue, it is still awesome.)
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 13, 2012, 12:52:52 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on July 13, 2012, 12:56:52 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 12:59:50 pm
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 13, 2012, 01:04:00 pm
Post by: towerdude on July 13, 2012, 01:06:44 pm
The only part of Oblivion with any actual atmosphere or character (I never played Shivering Isles, I hear that's pretty good as well) was the Dark Brotherhood questline.[Remain Silent]
(Shivering Isles was awesome. Even if you took away all of the good stuff except for Sheogorath's voice acting and dialogue, it is still awesome.)
I didn't have the hearth to play it after some asshole spoiled the story. It was like queueing to buy a ticket for The Empire Strikes Back, and that some dude coming out from the movie: "It was a big revelation, this is the greatest plot twist in cinema history, Darth Vader is Luke's father." really loudly. Or: "Shit, protagonist dies in Donnie Darko!"
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 13, 2012, 01:09:40 pm
Remember Sanguine's and Sheogorath's quests? One ended in you stripping an entire party of strangers naked and the other ended in it raining flaming dogs.They are pretty alright in Skyrim.
"Shit, what did I do last night?"
"Oh my god I'm gonna kill that dude when I find him again"
Post by: Virtz on July 13, 2012, 01:13:45 pm
I'd say both were awful. The Dark Brotherhood quest line made them out to be a bunch of idiots who got outsmarted by a cretin who's ultimate plan was to stab a ghost with a knife. Shivering Isles just showered us with "lol funny" caricatures of insane people. Sheogorath in particular. He was like Moira Brown, except with super powers and a dormant personality, which was his only sign of depth. I don't really remember anything good about Oblivion's writing.The only part of Oblivion with any actual atmosphere or character (I never played Shivering Isles, I hear that's pretty good as well) was the Dark Brotherhood questline.[Remain Silent]
(Shivering Isles was awesome. Even if you took away all of the good stuff except for Sheogorath's voice acting and dialogue, it is still awesome.)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 01:16:32 pm
Sanguine's Skyrim quest is just The Hangover in a Norse medieval fantasy setting, and that is a very good thing.Remember Sanguine's and Sheogorath's quests? One ended in you stripping an entire party of strangers naked and the other ended in it raining flaming dogs.They are pretty alright in Skyrim.
"Shit, what did I do last night?"
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 13, 2012, 01:17:23 pm
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on July 13, 2012, 02:05:40 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 02:07:54 pm
I also like that Morrowind had a death sentence.
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on July 13, 2012, 02:18:56 pm
I remember stealing the hidden enchanted ebony longsword in Balmora and instantly getting a death sentence because it had a value of 14,000.Did you ever find the daedric face of god? I lost my mind what I found that for the first time. I knew that viking ship was lacking something.
I also like that Morrowind had a death sentence.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 02:24:37 pm
My early experiences in Morrowind were interesting, to say the least.
Post by: Supercharazad on July 13, 2012, 03:53:05 pm
Oh, and you know you can beat Oblivion in 10 minutes? Same with Morrowind, record stands at around 7. Without bug abuse. And it uses an intended MQ path.
In Oblivion, the only quests that I found interesting were Whodunit, and the one where you have to murder your friends in the DB sanctuary. I actually really liked the orc, so killing him was depressing.
Post by: Mono124 on July 13, 2012, 05:10:56 pm
That being said, if you play on a PC which I have done at a friends house, Morrowind trumps everything else by far. You can change the mechanics to be less DnD like, increase rendering distances, and a crapton more. Just vanilla though... Skyrim.
Oblivion was just crap.
Post by: Aqizzar on July 13, 2012, 07:47:16 pm
Post by: Teneb on July 13, 2012, 09:00:30 pm
Post by: Aqizzar on July 13, 2012, 09:08:20 pm
It's a netch, not a ketch, Aqizzar. Off I am to do that quest again. Got to love the fork of horripilation and it's constant effect magicka drain.
Well now I'm embarrassed. It's been many a year since I traveled out Vvardenfell way, and I don't intend to return. That land stole my heart and much of my youth, and it can well keep what it already has.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 13, 2012, 09:53:40 pm
Post by: HavingPhun on July 13, 2012, 10:41:10 pm
Post by: SethCreiyd on July 13, 2012, 11:03:38 pm
Skyrim reminded me of Fable.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on July 14, 2012, 01:59:06 am
The skill system let me level it naturally in the process. Keeping myself from getting too powerful was a near constant goal.
Conversely who doesnt cast muffle over and over in skyrim getting endless levels in illusion,
Post by: Darkmere on July 14, 2012, 02:39:02 am
In skyrim you get a naggy spouse and a house that looks like all the other houses as far as I can tell.
Plus, Morrowind let you find discover the story on your own, at your own pace. Skyrim ha-DRAGONS AND BURNING AND RUN AWAY! ISN'T THIS AWESOME???!? (Oh, and Skyrim also directly lied to you the instant the tutorial was over.)
I skipped Oblivion when I saw that they made Dunmer bulbous-looking inky fish people. Pass. Horse Armor.
Post by: MrWiggles on July 14, 2012, 02:41:25 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 14, 2012, 02:42:36 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Darkmere on July 14, 2012, 02:46:33 am
I will have to contest about the houses in Skyrim all looking the same. Each one is different.
I will admit I couldn't make it past the tutorial, but watching someone else play I didn't see much spectacular about his housing arrangement vs the blacksmith shop. If I'd played through it maybe I'd have seen more, but that was long past the bluh bluh dragons! bit where I turned the game off and went outside.
Post by: Lightning4 on July 14, 2012, 06:33:13 am
Morrowind. My Morrowind house was a vampire lair in some Dwemer ruin. I killed the vampires, but left the thralls as my servants. Lit the place with stolen candles. It was cozy.
Another reason I liked Morrowind. Containers and dungeons never lost contents, you can make anything your "home" if you wanted.
Places I've holed up include:
-Hllalu Manor: Some random key gives you access to this place. I did not know that the guy who lived there was still there while doing so. I'm sure he had questions about the gigantic piles of stuff in his bedroom amongst a big sleeping Nord.
-Cave north of Caldera Mine. I dunno why I was drawn to it the first time, and I'm living in it again in my second playthrough. It's actually a really convenient location, with immediate access to Balmora, Ald'rhun (if you take a short walk), and of course, Caldera. Lots of storage but nice and compact.
-Noob cave at Seyda Neen. Who hasn't made this their early base of operations?
Wonder if there's any mods for Skyrim and Oblivion that make this possible. I suppose it's a moot point now that you can actually buy a house of your own...
Post by: Sordid on July 14, 2012, 07:39:45 am
Also, I really liked that if you paid attention to Morrowind's story you'll know that:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh yeah, that was awesome. I really loved the ambiguity of the plot, the grey-and-grey morality of it. Vivec et al. are a bunch of assholes lying through their teeth and Dagoth Ur believes himself to be the good guy, he wants to free his people form the occupation by a foreign power and lead them away from the worship of false gods. Compare that to the fecal matter that is the plot of Oblivion. Demons from hell are invading! Why exactly? Nobody really tells you at any point. And Skyrim? Dragons are invading, led by a big black dragon who eats dead people's souls! Why? Again, nobody tells you.
And if you paid attention to the lore books scattered about, you'll know that
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Haspen on July 14, 2012, 07:54:20 am
And if you paid attention to the lore books scattered about, you'll know thatSpoiler (click to show/hide)
...Wait wait, what? Which books exactly? O.o
Time to get Dark Elf Supermage and visit my giant library and check all the books. Did I mention earlier that my Dark Elf Supermage had whole dwemer ruin dedicated for book storage? For example, I had complete selection of '36 Lessons' plus few books that I never found again (Book With No Name, or that theatre-play book about adventurers in jungle).
PS: Morrowind books FTW. I simply loved 'True Barenziah' and 'Poison Song' series.
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 14, 2012, 07:56:37 am
And I think researching on the whole dragon crisis reveals that perhaps you shouldn't be doing this. You meet people that imply that the end of the world as you know it is possibly how the world should work. It isn't just evil dragons destroying the world, they were made by Akatosh to do this, and the world is fated to go through this.
People told you the weirdness of the plot and books reveal additional weirdness of your situation? Shat a shock from such a dumb game of Skyrim.
Post by: Teneb on July 14, 2012, 08:10:38 am
And if you paid attention to the lore books scattered about, you'll know thatSpoiler (click to show/hide)
...Wait wait, what? Which books exactly? O.o
Time to get Dark Elf Supermage and visit my giant library and check all the books. Did I mention earlier that my Dark Elf Supermage had whole dwemer ruin dedicated for book storage? For example, I had complete selection of '36 Lessons' plus few books that I never found again (Book With No Name, or that theatre-play book about adventurers in jungle).
PS: Morrowind books FTW. I simply loved 'True Barenziah' and 'Poison Song' series.
There is a hidden message is the 36 lessons where Vivec outright states he killed Nerevar. Finding it can be hard, however.
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 14, 2012, 08:43:45 am
And if you paid attention to the lore books scattered about, you'll know thatSpoiler (click to show/hide)
...Wait wait, what? Which books exactly? O.o
Time to get Dark Elf Supermage and visit my giant library and check all the books. Did I mention earlier that my Dark Elf Supermage had whole dwemer ruin dedicated for book storage? For example, I had complete selection of '36 Lessons' plus few books that I never found again (Book With No Name, or that theatre-play book about adventurers in jungle).
PS: Morrowind books FTW. I simply loved 'True Barenziah' and 'Poison Song' series.
There is a hidden message is the 36 lessons where Vivec outright states he killed Nerevar. Finding it can be hard, however.
It's hard to pick that from all the blowjobs going on
Post by: Gamerlord on July 14, 2012, 08:49:25 am
And if you paid attention to the lore books scattered about, you'll know thatSpoiler (click to show/hide)
...Wait wait, what? Which books exactly? O.o
Time to get Dark Elf Supermage and visit my giant library and check all the books. Did I mention earlier that my Dark Elf Supermage had whole dwemer ruin dedicated for book storage? For example, I had complete selection of '36 Lessons' plus few books that I never found again (Book With No Name, or that theatre-play book about adventurers in jungle).
PS: Morrowind books FTW. I simply loved 'True Barenziah' and 'Poison Song' series.
There is a hidden message is the 36 lessons where Vivec outright states he killed Nerevar. Finding it can be hard, however.
It's hard to pick that from all the blowjobs going on
O_o
Post by: Haspen on July 14, 2012, 08:55:28 am
Book 12 and 14 if I recall?
Post by: The Mechanical Man on July 14, 2012, 08:58:07 am
Post by: Gamerlord on July 14, 2012, 08:59:14 am
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 14, 2012, 09:05:09 am
Quote from: The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 14
So Vivec, who had a grain of Ayem's mercy, set about to teach Molag Bal in the ways of belly-magic. They took their spears out and compared them. Vivec bit new words onto the King of Rape's so that it might give more than ruin to the uninitiated. This has since become a forbidden ritual, though people still practice it in secret.
Here is why: The Velothi and demons and monsters that were watching all took out their own spears. There was much biting and the earth became wet. And this was the last laugh of Molag Bal:
'Watch as the earth shall crack, heavy with so much power, that should have been forever unalike!'
Then a bunch of demons started rampaging and Vivec killed them with his dick. It's basically self-insert fanfiction.
"And then I totally banged everyone and killed the demons and saved the day and got blowjobs from everyone!"
Post by: Gamerlord on July 14, 2012, 09:07:06 am
O_o O_o O_oQuote from: The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 14So Vivec, who had a grain of Ayem's mercy, set about to teach Molag Bal in the ways of belly-magic. They took their spears out and compared them. Vivec bit new words onto the King of Rape's so that it might give more than ruin to the uninitiated. This has since become a forbidden ritual, though people still practice it in secret.
Here is why: The Velothi and demons and monsters that were watching all took out their own spears. There was much biting and the earth became wet. And this was the last laugh of Molag Bal:
'Watch as the earth shall crack, heavy with so much power, that should have been forever unalike!'
Then a bunch of demons started rampaging and Vivec killed them with his dick. It's basically self-insert fanfiction.
"And then I totally banged everyone and killed the demons and saved the day and got blowjobs from everyone!"
Post by: Haspen on July 14, 2012, 09:08:34 am
Poor Gamelord, we shattered his innocence :P I feel so proud c:
Oh, and the 'censored' passage in 2nd part of 'True Barenziah' is uncensored in Daggerfall, and that part is about
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Gamerlord on July 14, 2012, 09:14:57 am
And don't forget that Molag Bal had Vivec's head for an hour before that for obvious purposes. Yup, perverse fiction everywhere in this game.
Poor Gamelord, we shattered his innocence :P I feel so proud c:
Oh, and the 'censored' passage in 2nd part of 'True Barenziah' is uncensored in Daggerfall, and that part is aboutSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Don't worry about me. I just never though about that passage like that. And I didn't think the bit in True Barenziah is actually
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Might be remembering it wrong.Post by: Haspen on July 14, 2012, 09:20:10 am
Post by: Sordid on July 14, 2012, 09:23:05 am
And if you paid attention to the lore books scattered about, you'll know thatSpoiler (click to show/hide)
...Wait wait, what? Which books exactly? O.o
36 Lessons, Sermon 19. “Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space filling to capacity with mortal interaction and information, a canvas-less cartography of every single mind it has ever known, an event that had developed some semblance of a divine spark.” A place that contains all the information about the mortal world and its inhabitants? It's non-spatial, not an actual place - like a just a bunch of tables and database entries. And it's almost divine. If you think about it, the developer of the game who uses the Construction Set to make the game world is literally its god, creating it out of nothing. This "space that is not a space", also referred to as the "Provisional House", appears again in Sermon 22. Vivec apparently uses it to erase people from existence, as he puts it. Much like a modder would with the CS.
I absolutely love this meta-aspect of the lore. More on it here: http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/
I wanna play again, but I only got it on Xbox, so no mods. :(
Oh please, it's like fifteen bucks on Steam. No excuses.
Post by: Teneb on July 14, 2012, 09:35:57 am
Post by: Knirisk on July 14, 2012, 10:15:59 am
And if you paid attention to the lore books scattered about, you'll know thatSpoiler (click to show/hide)
...Wait wait, what? Which books exactly? O.o
36 Lessons, Sermon 19. “Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space filling to capacity with mortal interaction and information, a canvas-less cartography of every single mind it has ever known, an event that had developed some semblance of a divine spark.” A place that contains all the information about the mortal world and its inhabitants? It's non-spatial, not an actual place - like a just a bunch of tables and database entries. And it's almost divine. If you think about it, the developer of the game who uses the Construction Set to make the game world is literally its god, creating it out of nothing. This "space that is not a space", also referred to as the "Provisional House", appears again in Sermon 22. Vivec apparently uses it to erase people from existence, as he puts it. Much like a modder would with the CS.
I absolutely love this meta-aspect of the lore. More on it here: http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/I wanna play again, but I only got it on Xbox, so no mods. :(
Oh please, it's like fifteen bucks on Steam. No excuses.
Mind blown. I occasionally read books in Morrowind, but I usually ignored the Lessons of Vivec.
Post by: Haspen on July 14, 2012, 10:33:28 am
As in, 'I wrote this while high' fantasy :P
But when you actually read into the words of the Lessons, it comes out as a brutal biography of Vivec, containing murder, rape, orgies, more murder, conquests, some wicked magickery and even more murder.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 14, 2012, 12:14:31 pm
Bethesda also justifies all the retcons, mechanics changes, and graphical upgrades they do by way of "Dragonbreaks", which are the main character of each game fucking time's shit up so much through all their actions that the whole thing falls apart and Akatosh has to sew it back together, which he can't do perfectly.
The more esoteric Elder Scrolls lore is very confusing.
Post by: Sordid on July 14, 2012, 12:57:49 pm
I always considered 36 Lessons as 'high fantasy'.
As in, 'I wrote this while high' fantasy :P
Pretty much. :D
"It was one dev, naked in a room with a carton of cigarettes, a thermos full of coffee and bourbon, and all his summoned angels." – Michael Kirkbride on writing the 36 Lessons of Vivec
Quote
But when you actually read into the words of the Lessons, it comes out as a brutal biography of Vivec, containing murder, rape, orgies, more murder, conquests, some wicked magickery and even more murder.
Oh yeah. Like I said, I love the moral ambiguity. He may be a god, but he's certainly no saint.
Also references to previous TES games. "They walked farther and saw the spiked waters at the edge of the map. (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-seventeen)" - Sermon 17
Post by: Haspen on July 14, 2012, 02:01:46 pm
Post by: Rex_Nex on July 14, 2012, 02:11:04 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 14, 2012, 02:18:31 pm
I've actually noticed different; PC users as a whole tend to dislike Skyrim.Well, Skyrim certainly caters more to the Xbox audience. Beats oblivion though! And the number of mods shows there's certainly PC Skyrim players in large amounts.
Post by: Domenique on July 14, 2012, 02:33:16 pm
Post by: Euld on July 14, 2012, 02:40:45 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 14, 2012, 02:45:48 pm
Post by: Domenique on July 14, 2012, 02:55:27 pm
I don't think there's a full voice mod, but I do know there's an updated graphics mod for Morrowind.
Animations still suck major ass though.
Post by: Sensei on July 14, 2012, 02:57:51 pm
I'm sure that us suggesting you a mod shopping list before you even play is probably throwing some red flags, but make sure you get the community patch too if you really want to play. It fixes a lot of bugs.
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 14, 2012, 03:01:29 pm
I think the bit on metaphysics proves why Morrowind is and will be the best in the series.I dunno, this is sorta like thinking the presence of the different races makes Morrowind the best. It's the same through the whole series. It's not a Morrowind exclusive thing.
Post by: Sordid on July 14, 2012, 03:21:08 pm
I think the bit on metaphysics proves why Morrowind is and will be the best in the series.
I dunno, this is sorta like thinking the presence of the different races makes Morrowind the best. It's the same through the whole series. It's not a Morrowind exclusive thing.
Eh, not really. I don't think the Sermons of Vivec showed up in Oblivion or Skyrim. And even if they did, they'd be completely out of place in these games. The great thing about Morrowind's lore and history is that it's directly connected to the game's plot. The Lessons of Vivec give you an insight into the mind of a character that plays a very prominent role in the story of the game. Oblivion and Skyrim have this connection between plot and lore too (namely the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires in Oblivion, and the Elder Scroll and Thu'um in Skyrim), but it's much more shallow and less interesting. Morrowind's plot is about blasphemy, ambition, betrayal, murder, and deceit. Oblivion's and Skyrim's plots are about a magic doodad that'll stop a big baddie coming to destroy the world for no reason.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 14, 2012, 03:32:39 pm
Furthermore, Elder Scrolls aren't even really scrolls at all. That's just how they appear to mortals who can't comprehend their true nature. They're older than the gods themselves. Continuing on the metaphysics standpoint, Elder Scrolls are essentially a way of editing the source code of the universe. It was used to banish Alduin because Elder Scrolls are one of the only things that can change fate in TES, and Alduin is fated to devour the world, or at least he was. Whether the Elder Scroll changed that fate or just delayed it isn't answered, but the Dragonborn does kill Alduin. On the other hand, dragons don't die for good unless you devour their souls, and the Dragonborn doesn't devour Alduin's soul.
Post by: Duke 2.0 on July 14, 2012, 03:41:07 pm
Post by: Gunner-Chan on July 14, 2012, 04:05:32 pm
I like morrowind as much as anyone from that time that got to play it, but compared piece for piece most of the games compare favorably to eachother. Fake or stilted depth and lack of depth aren't very different from one another.
Post by: Sordid on July 14, 2012, 06:59:09 pm
That's not exactly right. The Elder Scrolls, as the name suggest, are very important to the background of the Elder Scroll games as a whole.
No they aren't. The first game they played any role in at all was Oblivion, and it was still just a side quest. The five preceding games barely mentioned them.
Quote
To Skyrim's credit, it really added to the backstory of the Elder Scrolls by explaining how they function for different people.
Whether that was good or bad is a matter of opinion. Previously they were a mystery and therefore interesting, now they're much more mundane. Would the plot of Morrowind have been better if it gave you a clear answer to the question of what happened to the Dwemer or who betrayed whom at Red Mountain? Of course not! Leaving some questions unanswered is extremely important, and I for one was much happier when the Elder Scrolls were this nebulous thing in the background.
And lets not forget that deep down at it's core, Morrowind is about a magical artifact too. (Heart of lorkhan)
No, it isn't. The Heart is a MacGuffin, yes, but that's not what the plot is about. Look at what the objectives of the individual parts of the main quest are. The entire first half of the main quest in MW is nothing more than gathering lore. You have to do favors for those informants that Caius Cosades sends you to in order for them to give you information about the ashlanders, then you do a bunch of quests for the ashlanders in order for them to tell you what this whole Nerevarine thing is about, then you have to get that priestess out of jail so that you get some more lore at their secret monastery... Most of the main quest is just figuring out what the hell is going on and why, i.e. what the hell happened at Red Mountain when the Dwemer were defeated and disappeared and Nerevar was killed. The point of most of the MQ is to learn the lore, and it's only at the very end, when talking to Vivec and reading the notes he has had prepared for you, that you find our what you're going to have to do.
Compare that to the MQ of Oblivion and Skyrim. You're told by the first significant NPC what's going on and what you're going to have to do. That's Jauffre in Oblivion. He tells you right in his first conversation that there's a daedric threat, that the Dragonfires have to be re-lit in order to avert it, that it can only be done by a Septim using the Amulet of Kings in a specific temple in the Imperial City, and that there is one last Septim who can do it. There's nothing left to discover, you know right from the outset that you're going to have to get the guy and the amulet to the temple. The quests in between are just contrivances to artificially prolong the MQ. They're nothing more than fetch quests to get minor MacGuffins in order to enable you to get the big MacGuffin. The theft of the Amulet if Kings isn't a shocking turn of events, it's a necessity. Otherwise the plot would be a grand total of two or three quests long. Get amulet, get guy, get guy with amulet to temple. "We need this here magic doodad and that guy to win the game. You go get the guy, I'll keep the doodad here where it'll be safe," says the first major quest giver at the conclusion of the first quest of the game. Yeah, right. I totally didn't see that twist coming. ::)
Likewise in Skyrim you're informed by Balgruuf that dragons herald the end of the world, that only a Dragonborn can defeat them, that you're the Dragonborn, and that a Dragonborn's power is the Voice. So again you know right from the beginning that you're going to have to defeat the dragons using Thu'um. It's all laid out in front of you from the start, you don't have to do any thinking. You don't even have to listen to the dialog, you can click through it and just follow the quest arrow. In Morrowind you at least had to listen to what people told you in order to know what you were supposed to do next.
And don't even get me started on Daggerfall. Let me show you in graphical form:
Spoiler: The structure of Morrowind's MQ (click to show/hide)
As good as the MQ is in terms of lore, it's mostly linear and straightforward. Oblivion and Skyrim are even more so. Now compare that to...
Spoiler: ...the structure of Daggerfall's MQ (click to show/hide)
Look at that! No, seriously, look closely. Not only is the quest progression a lot more complex, not only are there a whole bunch of standalone quests and optional quest branches, there are actually two separate main quests running in parallel.
Long story short, TES games have been getting better in terms of graphics and gameplay mechanics over the past decade and a half, but also gradually worse at writing and depth.
Quote
Fake or stilted depth and lack of depth aren't very different from one another.
Which is why Skyrim is only slightly better than Oblivion in this respect. Oblivion has no depth at all, Skyrim has fake depth, and Morrowind has real depth.
Post by: Ivefan on July 14, 2012, 07:11:52 pm
Lots of textAgreed, very good points. And unfortunately, this degradation applies to all rpgs.
Post by: Aqizzar on July 14, 2012, 07:17:44 pm
Spoiler: Quotes of Morrowind stuff I didn't notice. (click to show/hide)
I loved the 36 Lessons books because they were so balls to the wall crazy, but I never read all of them, or too closely. I can't believe I missed that part, but it doesn't surprise me. Speaking in character, I did love the interplay between the prophecies and the personalities of Vivec, Dagoth Ur, and the Temple. There's this bunch of Prophecies that clearly only Azura has any real interest in seeing come to pass, Nerevar was a sacrifice or at least a scapegoat, Dagoth was a really nice guy who just went powermad, Vivec is sick to death of being a god and entertains himself by driving his religious order nuts, and Caius Cossades is an old cokehead trying to get you to fulfill foreign prophecies just make sure the Empire still knows what the hell is going on.
And that was just the main quest. I also took a particular interest in completing the whole thing as an Argonian. I feel like the "conservative" Dunmer don't comment on that nearly enough.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 14, 2012, 07:20:21 pm
No they aren't. The first game they played any role in at all was Oblivion, and it was still just a side quest. The five preceding games barely mentioned them."Just a side quest" is how you describe the ultimate quest of the Thieves Guild and breaking into White Gold Tower?
Anyway, the preceding games had them in the background, but Skyrim having some contact with one isn't a bad thing. It's completely appropriate for the story in Skyrim's case, because as I said before, Skyrim's story brings Fate into the picture. In TES the only ways to alter Fate are through the direct intervention of Daedra or Aedra or through the use of an Elder Scroll. You aren't even the one altering Fate, that was done way back when Alduin first tried to eat the world. The Dragonborn's usage of the Elder Scroll is just to take a look at what was done with it before to learn Dragonrend, which for an artifact of the Elder Scroll's power is fairly mundane.
Quote
Whether that was good or bad is a matter of opinion. Previously they were a mystery and therefore interesting, now they're much more mundane. Would the plot of Morrowind have been better if it gave you a clear answer to the question of what happened to the Dwemer or who betrayed whom at Red Mountain? Of course not! Leaving some questions unanswered is extremely important, and I for one was much happier when the Elder Scrolls were this nebulous thing in the background.Something being mysterious doesn't make it interesting. Mysterious things can be interesting, but some mysterious things are just plain unknown, like the Elder Scrolls were for most of the series. Futhermore, we still know almost nothing about them. All knowledge about the Elder Scrolls is as follows:
-They are the oldest things in the universe.
-They are capable of changing Fate.
-With them you can see the real past and all potential futures.
-You cannot grasp the true form of the Elder Scrolls.
-People who don't know about the Elder Scrolls do not react with Elder Scrolls and just see what looks like a weird star chart in some unknown language.
-People who know about the Elder Scrolls but are untrained to read them will see a future and be stricken blind by it.
-The Ancestor Moths can train people to survive staggered exposure to the Elder Scrolls, vision partially intact.
-The training of the Ancestor Moths only does so much, and eventually the reader will go blind.
-The Dwemer developed a machine that could read Elder Scrolls before they vanished, and there was one in the machine when they vanished.
-Elder Scrolls are uncountable and any gathering of them will fluctuate in number for no discernible reason.
And most of that requires some intentional lore searching to figure out.
Post by: Aqizzar on July 14, 2012, 07:28:46 pm
Post by: Sordid on July 14, 2012, 08:29:25 pm
No they aren't. The first game they played any role in at all was Oblivion, and it was still just a side quest. The five preceding games barely mentioned them.
"Just a side quest" is how you describe the ultimate quest of the Thieves Guild and breaking into White Gold Tower?
Well yes. How else would you describe it? There's the main quest, and then there's every other quest. Every quest that isn't part of the main quest is a side quest. And quite frankly the TG quest line was terrible. "I have this cursed magic doodad that has screwed up my life! How do I fix it? Oh I know, with another magic doodad!" *yawn* It's the same thing as with MW and Oblivion. The Dark Brotherhood quest line is about loyalty, madness, vengeance, and betrayal. The TG quest line is about magic doodads.
Quote
Anyway, the preceding games had them in the background, but Skyrim having some contact with one isn't a bad thing. It's completely appropriate for the story in Skyrim's case, because as I said before, Skyrim's story brings Fate into the picture. In TES the only ways to alter Fate are through the direct intervention of Daedra or Aedra or through the use of an Elder Scroll. You aren't even the one altering Fate, that was done way back when Alduin first tried to eat the world. The Dragonborn's usage of the Elder Scroll is just to take a look at what was done with it before to learn Dragonrend, which for an artifact of the Elder Scroll's power is fairly mundane.
Like I said, it's a matter of opinion. My opinion is that using it in Skyrim was a bad thing. As you yourself said, you use it in a very mundane way. IMO that really cheapens it.
Quote
Something being mysterious doesn't make it interesting. Mysterious things can be interesting, but some mysterious things are just plain unknown, like the Elder Scrolls were for most of the series.
Um, mysterious and unknown mean pretty much the same thing. But you're half-right, simply being unknown isn't enough to make something interesting. It also has to be important in some way, which the Elder Scrolls clearly are, what with being in the title of each of the games.
Quote
Futhermore, we still know almost nothing about them. All knowledge about the Elder Scrolls is as follows:
-They are the oldest things in the universe.
-They are capable of changing Fate.
-With them you can see the real past and all potential futures.
-You cannot grasp the true form of the Elder Scrolls.
-People who don't know about the Elder Scrolls do not react with Elder Scrolls and just see what looks like a weird star chart in some unknown language.
-People who know about the Elder Scrolls but are untrained to read them will see a future and be stricken blind by it.
-The Ancestor Moths can train people to survive staggered exposure to the Elder Scrolls, vision partially intact.
-The training of the Ancestor Moths only does so much, and eventually the reader will go blind.
-The Dwemer developed a machine that could read Elder Scrolls before they vanished, and there was one in the machine when they vanished.
-Elder Scrolls are uncountable and any gathering of them will fluctuate in number for no discernible reason.
And most of that requires some intentional lore searching to figure out.
And that's "very little" knowledge, is it? For a magical artifact, that's actually quite a lot. We're of course never going to know how they work simply because the answer, however wordy, is always going to be "by magic". But I find that what you've listed is more than enough information already. What also bothers me a great deal is that they're supposedly these extremely powerful items that can do anything from breaking daedric curses to sending dragons forward in time, yet you can't actually do anything with it when you have one. "Oh but your character doesn't know how to use it," says the game. Well then why can't I bloody well go and find someone to teach me? I had the exact same issue with the Heart in Morrowind. I have Kagrenac's Tools, I'm in the Heart chamber, why is my only option to destroy the Heart? Why can't I make myself a god like the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur did? Vivec didn't tell me how to do that, he only told me how to use the tools to destroy the Heart, but why can't I ask that dwemer? He was a big shot working alongside Kagrenac and there are dwemer books lying around with illustrations of the tools being used to manipulate the Heart. Surely he could help me figure it out. But no, the option to ask him about it isn't even there. IMO the player shouldn't be able to get their hands on these immensely powerful artifacts if they then won't be allowed to use them meaningfully.
Post by: Sensei on July 14, 2012, 08:40:55 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on July 14, 2012, 08:56:52 pm
*ring ring*
bethesda guy #1: Tom?
writer: hey man came to start the job.
bethesda guy #1: Tom we hired you eighteen years ago, where have you been? You're damned late!
writer: A GOOD WRITER IS NEVER LATE, HE ARRIVES PRECISELY WHEN HE MEANS TO!
Post by: Dutchling on July 15, 2012, 05:16:53 am
And this time I am actually going to complete the damn game.
Post by: Haspen on July 15, 2012, 05:39:26 am
The speedrun record is 7:30 minutes, so no excuses for you, Dutchling :P
Post by: Dutchling on July 15, 2012, 05:47:16 am
Post by: Haspen on July 15, 2012, 05:53:34 am
Post by: Domenique on July 15, 2012, 05:58:48 am
I got as far as giving some guy something from a Dwemer ruin. Is that very far into the story :P?Isn't that the first mission?
Post by: anzki4 on July 15, 2012, 06:00:48 am
I got as far as giving some guy something from a Dwemer ruin. Is that very far into the story :P?That is the first quest on Main Quest line if I recall correctly.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Post by: Dutchling on July 15, 2012, 07:06:01 am
I wish installing mods wasn't so hard with this game :(. It all seems so easy, until my computer inevitably crashes.
Nevermind the previous nevermind. The mod seems to be gone. I guess I'll just play vanilla.
Post by: Alastar on July 15, 2012, 07:49:05 am
Daggerfall is a vast sandbox with enough interesting lore to make it mostly forgivable.
Morrowind and Oblivion were steps from "abitious but broken" to "acceptably mainstream", losing more than they gained. Skyrim can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself.
Post by: sluissa on July 15, 2012, 10:19:33 am
Can someone link me to 'Unofficial Morrowind Code Patch'? I'm following a guide to fix/patch/mod this game and this (http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/mods/19510) is not helping. It also isn't a very Googleable mod.
I wish installing mods wasn't so hard with this game :(. It all seems so easy, until my computer inevitably crashes.edit: nevermindihaveititwasonthefirstresultofgoofleiamanidiot
Nevermind the previous nevermind. The mod seems to be gone. I guess I'll just play vanilla.
I have a vague memory that the last time I tried to patch/mod morrowind, that code patch had been obsoleted and wrapped up into something else. I really can't remember what though and I don't have time to do a thorough search at the moment.
Post by: Teneb on July 15, 2012, 10:46:49 am
The code patch works fine for me. I think it can be found in the TES Nexus.Can someone link me to 'Unofficial Morrowind Code Patch'? I'm following a guide to fix/patch/mod this game and this (http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/mods/19510) is not helping. It also isn't a very Googleable mod.
I wish installing mods wasn't so hard with this game :(. It all seems so easy, until my computer inevitably crashes.edit: nevermindihaveititwasonthefirstresultofgoofleiamanidiot
Nevermind the previous nevermind. The mod seems to be gone. I guess I'll just play vanilla.
I have a vague memory that the last time I tried to patch/mod morrowind, that code patch had been obsoleted and wrapped up into something else. I really can't remember what though and I don't have time to do a thorough search at the moment.
Post by: Dutchling on July 15, 2012, 10:50:16 am
>there were two rooms downstairs, which one did I rent?
>who cares, picked the left one and stashed my skooma in the chest
>hours later I return for my skooma
>I had rented the right one
>everyone in the inn runs at me screaming about my life and how it is going to end very soon
>they were right
About the patch, I'm playing vanilla now. With the unofficial patch. Just not the code patch.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on July 15, 2012, 12:10:29 pm
They're all troubled games with dull, broken rulesets and excessive padding.
Daggerfall is a vast sandbox with enough interesting lore to make it mostly forgivable.
Morrowind and Oblivion were steps from "abitious but broken" to "acceptably mainstream", losing more than they gained. Skyrim can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself.
I hope you reaelize that in no way is mainstream a good thing. Not that skyrim is bad but mainstream-ness really destroyed what it could have been.
Post by: towerdude on July 15, 2012, 03:59:10 pm
Thank you all of you guys for this (I believe I am correct if I say the users of Dwarf Fortress are better at figurative thinking):
http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/ (http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/)
http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-2/ (http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-2/)
http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-3/ (http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-3/)
http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-4/ (http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-4/)
As the guy stated: "Elder Scrolls lore is layered, multifaceted and chaotic, like a… a crystalline, non-Euclidean onion" and this is only one aspect of it.
I for example interpreted this passage differently:
“The immobile warrior is never fatigued. He cuts sleep holes in the middle of a battle to regain his strength.” - 36 Lessons, Sermon 23
“I do that too,” I smirked, “it’s called taking health potions in the inventory screen while the game is paused.”
When I first read this sermon, the immobile warrior for me was the immobile (additional detail: plump and basement-dweller) body of a player, who can save and quit the game, and sleep. His time in reality however is at instant from the perspective of the game world, ergo the "immobile (keyboard) warrior" is never fatigued.
One thing reading one's abstract explanation, or his/her own writing (no matter if it is scientific, philosophical, religious or mythological), and actually understanding it. But creating such intricate works on your own is another.
I talk about creations that are not arbitrary. You could create works only for yourself for the sake creation, that act is authorative in itself, but that doesn't mean the work itself will become or remain arbitrary. I hate those who see a painting or a novel, and prise it because other people did the same (presumably socially important figures), yet when it comes to the importance of the work to them, or the meaning of it, they stay silent. Sometimes it is also the fault of the creator, who knowingly designed something with no inherent message, and invent later some pseudo explanation, what is clearly has no connection to it (even if we couldn't exactly know what the artist had in mind during the act of work, there are always good leads if it is an arbitrary connection).
However if the creation, becomes more in itself , capable of transcending its original meaninglessness, it defeats the arbitrariness which it was designed in. However there is a limit of this, which depends on the complexity (how much free "intellectual area") and also on the context of said work.
A satirical joke:
(http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/bst/lowres/bstn480l.jpg)
An actual piece of art that costs 1 million dollars.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Malevich.black-square.jpg)
So what is the point of all that? I though about it, what would an aliens species think about the Elder Scrolls, and how would they interpret it (books in it), if some of us humans ourselves, couldn't get the covert messages without help. This also reminds me that the story of Antigone itself, has at least 7 mainstream interpretations.
However I am not just thankful for you guys, but also for myself :P, since I started this thread, and without that i would never come to this "obscure knowledge", about the lore.
Post by: cameron on July 15, 2012, 04:45:39 pm
They're all troubled games with dull, broken rulesets and excessive padding.
Daggerfall is a vast sandbox with enough interesting lore to make it mostly forgivable.
Morrowind and Oblivion were steps from "abitious but broken" to "acceptably mainstream", losing more than they gained. Skyrim can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself.
I hope you reaelize that in no way is mainstream a good thing. Not that skyrim is bad but mainstream-ness really destroyed what it could have been.
I think the point was that morrowind and oblivion had moved further and further away the grand ambitions in world and lore which had been daggerfall's advantage, without a comparable increase in polish and accessibility. In any case I don't think someone saying something can "can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself." is really a glowing recommendation
Post by: Domenique on July 16, 2012, 01:53:53 am
They're all troubled games with dull, broken rulesets and excessive padding.
Daggerfall is a vast sandbox with enough interesting lore to make it mostly forgivable.
Morrowind and Oblivion were steps from "abitious but broken" to "acceptably mainstream", losing more than they gained. Skyrim can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself.
I hope you reaelize that in no way is mainstream a good thing. Not that skyrim is bad but mainstream-ness really destroyed what it could have been.
I think the point was that morrowind and oblivion had moved further and further away the grand ambitions in world and lore which had been daggerfall's advantage, without a comparable increase in polish and accessibility. In any case I don't think someone saying something can "can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself." is really a glowing recommendation
A game like dagerfall is impossible considering the costs of creating a video game. All video games got reduced in scope in favour of graphics.
Post by: Heron TSG on July 16, 2012, 01:56:36 am
Post by: Domenique on July 16, 2012, 04:15:21 am
Except for that one relating to the forum you're having this discussion on?
Non-commercial springs to my mind :P.
Post by: Sordid on July 16, 2012, 05:38:06 am
A game like dagerfall is impossible considering the costs of creating a video game. All video games got reduced in scope in favour of graphics.
I don't think so. Daggerfall is almost entirely procedurally generated, mostly empty, and composed of only a few building blocks that keep repeating. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to create such a game today. I'd say the reason such games are no longer made is not because of cost but rather because a game where every town looks like every other town and the vast areas between towns are composed of completely empty flat ground is not very interesting. In terms of sheer scope, Minecraft springs to mind. It has a huge world with towns filled with NPCs and lots of underground areas with monsters. But unlike Daggerfall, MC's world is at least interactive, there's stuff to do everywhere. In DF there's no point ever venturing out of a town, because the areas outside the settlements are completely empty and the distances between points of interest are so vast that the odds of finding something interesting by accident are microscopic.
Post by: Domenique on July 16, 2012, 05:43:04 am
A game like dagerfall is impossible considering the costs of creating a video game. All video games got reduced in scope in favour of graphics.
I don't think so. Daggerfall is almost entirely procedurally generated, mostly empty, and composed of only a few building blocks that keep repeating. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to create such a game today. I'd say the reason such games are no longer made is not because of cost but rather because a game where every town looks like every other town and the vast areas between towns are composed of completely empty flat ground is not very interesting. In terms of sheer scope, Minecraft springs to mind. It has a huge world with towns filled with NPCs and lots of underground areas with monsters. But unlike Daggerfall, MC's world is at least interactive, there's stuff to do everywhere. In DF there's no point ever venturing out of a town, because the areas outside the settlements are completely empty and the distances between points of interest are so vast that the odds of finding something interesting by accident are microscopic.
What I was trying to say is that generated environs are useless and boring, and to really expand the scope you must cough up some cash. That's why other departaments (writing, music, etc.) might and do get punished. Writing in Skyrim and Oblivion compared to Morrowind wasn't exactly superb, though Morrowind's graphics right now look like a joke.
Post by: Supercharazad on July 16, 2012, 05:48:28 am
A game like dagerfall is impossible considering the costs of creating a video game. All video games got reduced in scope in favour of graphics.
I don't think so. Daggerfall is almost entirely procedurally generated, mostly empty, and composed of only a few building blocks that keep repeating. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to create such a game today. I'd say the reason such games are no longer made is not because of cost but rather because a game where every town looks like every other town and the vast areas between towns are composed of completely empty flat ground is not very interesting. In terms of sheer scope, Minecraft springs to mind. It has a huge world with towns filled with NPCs and lots of underground areas with monsters. But unlike Daggerfall, MC's world is at least interactive, there's stuff to do everywhere. In DF there's no point ever venturing out of a town, because the areas outside the settlements are completely empty and the distances between points of interest are so vast that the odds of finding something interesting by accident are microscopic.
What I was trying to say is that generated environs are useless and boring, and to really expand the scope you must cough up some cash. That's why other departaments (writing, music, etc.) might and do get punished. Writing in Skyrim and Oblivion compared to Morrowind wasn't exactly superb, though Morrowind's graphics right now look like a joke.
>Get mods for morrowind
>Graphics beautiful
Post by: Domenique on July 16, 2012, 07:36:14 am
>Get mods for morrowind
>Graphics beautiful
Still from a technical viewpoint the animations are clumsy and the engine is outdated. The mods are not always well optimised. Make no mistake though, I love, love Morrowind.
Post by: Haspen on July 16, 2012, 09:42:36 am
I just noticed something in Sermon 36 (English version) - If you take first letter of each paragraph besides the last, you get
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh, and some Vivec x Molag Bal things, Sermon 12:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cecilff2 on July 16, 2012, 10:27:26 am
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius
was confirmed by devs.
Post by: Eagle_eye on July 16, 2012, 12:55:38 pm
Post by: Cecilff2 on July 16, 2012, 01:27:26 pm
Wasn't it already established that they disappeared from Mundus? I thought the question was to whether or not they still existed in some form, or had been destroyed.
Summary of that final report
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: towerdude on July 17, 2012, 09:44:24 am
Wasn't it already established that they disappeared from Mundus? I thought the question was to whether or not they still existed in some form, or had been destroyed.
Summary of that final reportSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Shit, I didn't know that. Now that is the kind of spoiler I don't like.
Anyone noticed the two dwarves having sex in the dwarf city under Mournhold?
Post by: Alastar on July 19, 2012, 09:40:12 am
They're all troubled games with dull, broken rulesets and excessive padding.
Daggerfall is a vast sandbox with enough interesting lore to make it mostly forgivable.
Morrowind and Oblivion were steps from "abitious but broken" to "acceptably mainstream", losing more than they gained. Skyrim can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself.
I hope you reaelize that in no way is mainstream a good thing. Not that skyrim is bad but mainstream-ness really destroyed what it could have been.
I think the point was that morrowind and oblivion had moved further and further away the grand ambitions in world and lore which had been daggerfall's advantage, without a comparable increase in polish and accessibility. In any case I don't think someone saying something can "can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself." is really a glowing recommendation
A game like dagerfall is impossible considering the costs of creating a video game. All video games got reduced in scope in favour of graphics.
"Acceptably mainstream" wasn't meant to be an endorsement. If those are the only choices, I prefer "ambitious but broken", I suppose that applies to many people here. But as I see it, the big steps down happened in Morrowind and Oblivion and those still weren't tight and polished by mainstream standards of the time. Skyrim... isn't too bad in that respect.
I'd prefer if we didn't make ourselves slaves to technology. If we can wow players with fancy graphics, fine... but it's not worth throwing out depth, scope or putting other extreme limitations on game design. I'd love a modern take on the Daggerfall approach with some effort spent on bringing the procedurally generated stuff to life, even at the expense of production value.
Games that look bad always looked bad, some players just didn't noticed because they were too dazzled by some expensive cheap parlour trick.
Games that use a mature technological standard well still look good 10 years later.
Post by: Rakonas on July 20, 2012, 09:16:04 am
Wasn't it already established that they disappeared from Mundus? I thought the question was to whether or not they still existed in some form, or had been destroyed.That report addresses that, of course. Probably the best essay on the matter written.
Post by: towerdude on August 02, 2012, 04:46:24 pm
They're all troubled games with dull, broken rulesets and excessive padding.
Daggerfall is a vast sandbox with enough interesting lore to make it mostly forgivable.
Morrowind and Oblivion were steps from "abitious but broken" to "acceptably mainstream", losing more than they gained. Skyrim can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself.
I hope you reaelize that in no way is mainstream a good thing. Not that skyrim is bad but mainstream-ness really destroyed what it could have been.
I think the point was that morrowind and oblivion had moved further and further away the grand ambitions in world and lore which had been daggerfall's advantage, without a comparable increase in polish and accessibility. In any case I don't think someone saying something can "can finally pass as acceptably mainstream without embarassing itself." is really a glowing recommendation
A game like dagerfall is impossible considering the costs of creating a video game. All video games got reduced in scope in favour of graphics.
"Acceptably mainstream" wasn't meant to be an endorsement. If those are the only choices, I prefer "ambitious but broken", I suppose that applies to many people here. But as I see it, the big steps down happened in Morrowind and Oblivion and those still weren't tight and polished by mainstream standards of the time. Skyrim... isn't too bad in that respect.
I'd prefer if we didn't make ourselves slaves to technology. If we can wow players with fancy graphics, fine... but it's not worth throwing out depth, scope or putting other extreme limitations on game design. I'd love a modern take on the Daggerfall approach with some effort spent on bringing the procedurally generated stuff to life, even at the expense of production value.
Games that look bad always looked bad, some players just didn't noticed because they were too dazzled by some expensive cheap parlour trick.
Games that use a mature technological standard well still look good 10 years later.
Well we are already slaves to technology (I use electricity and the Internet while typing this), if I look at that way the book based RPGs, played by only words and speech is the mother of all. Especially if I onsider that our imagination is unlimited. The time will come when we don't have to choose between realism and depth.
Post by: Vherid on August 02, 2012, 04:54:12 pm
Post by: towerdude on August 02, 2012, 05:13:35 pm
So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
Post by: Vherid on August 02, 2012, 05:16:14 pm
So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
I thought this was a cover-all topic for the 3 main games?
Post by: towerdude on August 02, 2012, 05:32:00 pm
So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
I thought this was a cover-all topic for the 3 main games?
Yes but I can't change topic name retroactively. And somebody requested Daggerfall, and I added Arena too since it is also a main release, what started all.
Post by: Sensei on August 02, 2012, 05:47:54 pm
Actually, you can. I do it all the time when I run forum games. Just change the subject line when you edit the OP- you could call it "General Elder Scrolls Discussion" or something of that ilk.So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
I thought this was a cover-all topic for the 3 main games?
Yes but I can't change topic name retroactively.
Post by: Vherid on August 02, 2012, 05:48:13 pm
So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
I thought this was a cover-all topic for the 3 main games?
Yes but I can't change topic name retroactively. And somebody requested Daggerfall, and I added Arena too since it is also a main release, what started all.
Well I'm just saying HEY EVERYONE, DAWNGUARD IS OUT.
Post by: towerdude on August 02, 2012, 05:59:05 pm
Actually, you can. I do it all the time when I run forum games. Just change the subject line when you edit the OP- you could call it "General Elder Scrolls Discussion" or something of that ilk.So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
I thought this was a cover-all topic for the 3 main games?
Yes but I can't change topic name retroactively.
Sirs you are an hero!
Post by: towerdude on August 02, 2012, 06:01:06 pm
So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
I thought this was a cover-all topic for the 3 main games?
Yes but I can't change topic name retroactively. And somebody requested Daggerfall, and I added Arena too since it is also a main release, what started all.
Well I'm just saying HEY EVERYONE, DAWNGUARD IS OUT.
And what is your relevant post here (opinion about the games, comparison, etc)? (beside your astonishing discovery)
Post by: MasterFancyPants on August 02, 2012, 06:39:36 pm
So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
I thought this was a cover-all topic for the 3 main games?
Yes but I can't change topic name retroactively. And somebody requested Daggerfall, and I added Arena too since it is also a main release, what started all.
Well I'm just saying HEY EVERYONE, DAWNGUARD IS OUT.
And what is your relevant post here (opinion about the games, comparison, etc)? (beside your astonishing discovery)
This is a TES thread, I'd say an expansion coming out is pretty relevant.
Post by: Facekillz058 on August 02, 2012, 07:34:46 pm
This is because, of every game i've played, it is, indeed, the only game ever, that i have NOT SLEPT a night, so that i could play more, and more, and more of it.
At this point in time, im level 40, and have over 400k gold.
Good for me.
Post by: towerdude on August 03, 2012, 01:52:38 pm
So dawn-guard just came out.
So you mean, I should include it beside Skyrim in the poll?
I thought this was a cover-all topic for the 3 main games?
Yes but I can't change topic name retroactively. And somebody requested Daggerfall, and I added Arena too since it is also a main release, what started all.
Well I'm just saying HEY EVERYONE, DAWNGUARD IS OUT.
And what is your relevant post here (opinion about the games, comparison, etc)? (beside your astonishing discovery)
This is a TES thread, I'd say an expansion coming out is pretty relevant.
But it doesn't add anything to the conversation. It is like if somebody would came here, and say in one sentence that Skyrim is better, without any explanation or detailed opinion. Als the thread was mainly started, because I wanted to know what other people think about the TES games, and their comparison.
Post by: Supercharazad on August 03, 2012, 01:57:49 pm
Post by: towerdude on August 03, 2012, 02:29:17 pm
So I convinced my friend to get Morrowind GOTY edition. he got it for Xbox. GODDAMNIT.
It's funny how people believe that because something is called a gaming console, it is more suitable for games. It's like reading comics, and thinking you are a fan of literature.
Post by: TripJack on August 03, 2012, 09:29:16 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2012, 09:40:59 pm
So I convinced my friend to get Morrowind GOTY edition. he got it for Xbox. GODDAMNIT.Man, Morrowind on the Xbox kinda sucked monkey balls. It's not built for the hardware, there's no precious precious mods and most of all it's a mouse game, just like Skyrim is a gamepad game. Did any of you ever play the Myst games on the Xbox? It's like that except things are trying to kill you and the game crashes if you don't close doors behind you.
Post by: Tellemurius on August 03, 2012, 09:49:31 pm
actually if you dumped Morrowind onto the HD it ran fast and allowed modding too (alot easier and open than doing oblivion and skyrim modding)So I convinced my friend to get Morrowind GOTY edition. he got it for Xbox. GODDAMNIT.Man, Morrowind on the Xbox kinda sucked monkey balls. It's not built for the hardware, there's no precious precious mods and most of all it's a mouse game, just like Skyrim is a gamepad game. Did any of you ever play the Myst games on the Xbox? It's like that except things are trying to kill you and the game crashes if you don't close doors behind you.
Post by: neotemplar on August 04, 2012, 12:01:24 am
So I convinced my friend to get Morrowind GOTY edition. he got it for Xbox. GODDAMNIT.
i think its time to call the vet and have him put down. Clearly he is in agony.
Post by: Girlinhat on August 04, 2012, 12:53:42 am
Needless to say, I terribly miss that in Skyrim. But the game has still proven loads of fun - and I stress that point, it's very fun. TES series has a lot of lore. I mean a LOT of lore. It has more races than most other games, and it has more ancient-dead races than it has living ones, and each of those has a unique backstory, set of deities, and domain. Each also has its own set of historical figures and interactions with other races. I can remember several times in Oblivion where I'd run through a little, and then someone would say something, and I'd swear under my breath as I pulled up the wiki because someone just mentioned ANOTHER obscure historical figure who is somehow important while still having absolutely no relevance. In that regard, Oblivion had a lot of lore-issues where the game was made for the fans of the game - not made friendly to new players, but rather made familiar for old players. And if Oblivion has less RPG elements, then I can imagine the Morrowind was absolutely swamped with backstory, unpronounceable names, and locations you couldn't actually visit.
So with that in mind, I enjoy Skyrim because it's enjoyable. It could use a bit more lore and a bit more fleshing out of the world, there's a lot that just seems to exist for no other reason than to be there. But at the same time, the simple parts are rather fun parts. First of all, sneaking is actually possible, which is amazing. Oblivion sneaking involved everyone knowing where you are immediately everywhere. So sneaking about in Skyrim and stabbing someone in the back and hiding before his buddy comes to investigate the noise, is very fun. But that's a game mechanic upgrade - many consider it a bug how Oblivion handled sneaking - and I'm getting side tracked. Point I was failing to get around to, is that I've enjoyed wandering Skyrim more than anything else. "Start at Whiterun, head West until you die" has proven to be a lot of fun. I had a particular instance where a dragon killed me a dozen times in an open field, until I remembered that I'd passed a giant camp a little ways back and ran towards it, dragon following and getting the beatdown by three angry giants. Of course then the remaining one giant put the beatdown on me. Turns out mages can't run very fast! But it's that, the open and interactive world that I've enjoyed. The plot is nice, but being able to run out into the open and find something to do virtually anywhere I look, has been a lot of fun. Oblivion seemed a little lacking, like it wanted to be a busy world but it lacked the hard drive space.
So yeah, less lore has been fun. I can run headlong into some Dwemer ruins, and at no point do I need to stop and wiki what this one Dwemer leader's name was 4,000 years ago or anything!
Post by: Virtz on August 04, 2012, 02:02:08 am
And not having your character ask about the most basic of things like he was born yesterday ain't being unfriendly to the user. You want to know more, you need to investigate yourself, and there's like hundreds of in-game books for that. You don't actually need to know, though, and most players don't really give a shit.
I don't really get your approach either. If something has any semblance of depth, then you absolutely have to learn everything about it? And you can only be happy when the depth ain't there at all? Do you read the whole history of a generated world from top to bottom before starting to play it in Dwarf Fortress?
Post by: Haspen on August 04, 2012, 02:30:20 am
Do you read the whole history of a generated world from top to bottom before starting to play it in Dwarf Fortress?
You don't?
I thought every good player spends at least an hour browsing through history o.o
Post by: Shadowlord on August 04, 2012, 03:24:53 am
But the enchantment system was even more detailed. You could combine a ton of spell effects or even stack them...
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 04, 2012, 03:35:19 am
Post by: Haspen on August 04, 2012, 04:11:26 am
When I played my heavy-armor (ebony everything + Daedric Face of God) knight, my boots had permament Slowfall(1), my belt had permament Water Breath, my chest armor had permament Fortify Strength(6), my shirt had permament Restore Fatigue(4) and Restore Health(1), my pendant had Unlock(100), and one of my ebony pauldrons had Recall. Oh, and a spare ring with Levitation(5pts, 10sec) + pendants of Divine and Almsivi teleport.
He was able to get anywhere he wanted without drinking ton of potions or being super-mage.
My daedric axe, on other hand, had Damage Intelligence (at range of 30-50pts, iirc) per strike. Any mages who stood against me were basically doomed at the start of the battle :P
Post by: Shadowlord on August 04, 2012, 04:47:06 am
Jump (100) + Slowfall (1), maybe with agility and acrobatics in there, was a personal fave - leap over the horizon.
It gets better. I made this years ago (along with a short range jump+slowfall alternative):
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26452959/icarus_amulet.png)
Works just like the Icarian Flight scrolls, but I could only get it up to about 75% or so as powerful as the scrolls are. When you use it and jump forward, you'll still fly through a whole ton of loading screens* at warp speed, and probably hit the ground and die before you realize you were in any danger (due to loading screens and fog), but you can survive the trip by casting slowfall around the time your trajectory changes from an upward trend to a downward trend.
I made the amulet because Icarian Flight was absolutely the most entertaining way to travel around the world, but you only get 3 scrolls or so and can't make any more, and there's no way to learn a spell for it or anything. So I had to see if I could recreate the effect somehow, and get it to be as effective as possible.
* = Normally it would just say it was loading stuff while you were walking around, but when you used something like this you were moving so fast that it couldn't keep up, and literally had to pause the game. Or say it was pausing the game, but still kill you due to impact with the ground while it was paused, somehow (or more likely the timing got confused because it was pausing).
Post by: rhesusmacabre on August 04, 2012, 04:57:49 am
Post by: Alkhemia on August 04, 2012, 05:16:19 am
Post by: Trapezohedron on August 04, 2012, 06:15:00 am
It's either slowfall, or mashing the quicksave and quickload buttons.
Post by: Teneb on August 04, 2012, 11:35:32 am
Post by: towerdude on August 04, 2012, 05:40:21 pm
Just stack levitation effects until you get 300 magnitude. You'll be able to go from Ald Daedroth to Vivec in a few minutes.
That is why I felt sorry for the horse mod, since these enchantments made a very nice mod useless.
You could fight from a horseback and do anything. I once made 200 NPCs, one side consisting of orcs on foot, and the other from rohirrim (imperial dragon scale armor) on horseback, and scripted them to follow me, and attack any enemy, it was an epic mounted battle. You charged at the enemy and had to have the right timing to strike.
I modded the horse mod, to have faster horses, because after level 30, they slowed me down, and also added extra damage, since in real life the speed of the horse is added to the speed of your swing.
After this it was like Eomer trampling down mordor forces.
Post by: Haspen on August 04, 2012, 05:51:51 pm
Spoiler: My first visit at Foreign Quarter (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pnx on August 04, 2012, 07:15:03 pm
Post by: towerdude on August 06, 2012, 02:47:47 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
But from the official game, Mournhold is an all time favourite:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Forgot to say: I also like Raven Rock better than the other towns, because it depends on your actions if the snowy wasteland turns into a thriving village.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Here is a concept art for Skyrim:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sergius on August 06, 2012, 03:42:11 pm
Post by: Teneb on August 06, 2012, 04:03:46 pm
My favorite city in vanilla MW is probably Uvirith's Grave (after stronghold is built, of course). The "Building Up Uvirith's Grave" mod probably influences that.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 06, 2012, 04:04:50 pm
EDIT: I don't think the elderscrolls games really make nice cities, they make hamlets, even the imperial city it not that large.
Post by: Alkhemia on August 06, 2012, 04:10:22 pm
Post by: Sergius on August 06, 2012, 04:19:20 pm
What I don't understand is how 13 buildings and 3 courtyards make a city.
EDIT: I don't think the elderscrolls games really make nice cities, they make hamlets, even the imperial city it not that large.
That's one of the reasons I don't like non-procedurally generated cities in "seamless" worlds. IMO the best way to depict a large city is to explicitly restrict exploration to a few zones (like Baldur's Gate 2, or BloodNet: you're shown a map, you're not expected to walk the entire length of it). Even better if it has random encounter areas that you only see once.
I guess in a first person game, some other way should be employed to make the cities seem larger than they are.
Post by: Idranel on August 06, 2012, 04:28:00 pm
Mournhold and the Imperial City give me a funny feeling about urban planning. Who actually makes a city like that? Do they just decide to make a perfectly circular wall, then say "let's divide it with a cross in the middle, later we figure out what to put in each side"? So symmetrical...
The city layouts you see in most games tend to be utter crap.
Because the people designing things have no clue of (urban) history and the factors that determine how cities and roads form and grow IRL.
Planned cities tend to have grid patterns. Anything that started as a roman fort or a properly planned greek or roman colony has atleast a core based on a grid layout with some sort of rectangular walls around it. Those roman forts tended to be pretty much symmetrical. Take a look at a map of Manhattan and you can see multiple stages of extensions with slightly different patterns. Road layouts tend to remain the same over centuries and even millenia. So what started as roads between some roman barracks can survive for 2000 years.
Parts that aren't planned tend to result into rings around some point of interest... like churches or market places or crossroads along important trade routes and less order in general.
City walls tend to be somewhat expensive to build, so there is an incentive to use the space inside of them as efficiently as possible. Using lots space for trees or gardens is something you won't see often within walled cities.
Imperial fortifications in Elderscroll Games don't really look like anything the roman empire would build.
In games cities often end up with some sort of deliberately planned layout or geometrical pattern. That pattern will apply to the whole city and you won't see any changes in that pattern indicating multiple stages of growth. Those patterns tend not to be grid-based but something more elaborate, usually resulting in longer routes than necessary. So basically they are planned but planned to be inefficient and annoying.
If there are city walls ingame, atleast 60% of the space within those wall tends not to be used for anything.
Sometimes you see some sort of modular city like Vivec or Stormwind ... which are of course utter crap for traffic and mostly a waste of space and resources.
Not to mention that ingame cities tend to be comically small. Usually they're more theme park than a believable part of world inhabited by rational beings.
Post by: Pnx on August 06, 2012, 04:37:17 pm
It's the law of conservation of detail, you can make things very large, or very detailed, it takes a lot of time and effort to do both.What I don't understand is how 13 buildings and 3 courtyards make a city.
EDIT: I don't think the elderscrolls games really make nice cities, they make hamlets, even the imperial city it not that large.
That's one of the reasons I don't like non-procedurally generated cities in "seamless" worlds. IMO the best way to depict a large city is to explicitly restrict exploration to a few zones (like Baldur's Gate 2, or BloodNet: you're shown a map, you're not expected to walk the entire length of it). Even better if it has random encounter areas that you only see once.
I guess in a first person game, some other way should be employed to make the cities seem larger than they are.
Bethesda usually tries to make things very detailed, which becomes a big problem when they're dealing with something that's supposed to be very large, because then they have to either spend ten years making it the size it's really supposed to be, cut out on the detail, or make it small. They usually just make it small.
Post by: Eagle_eye on August 06, 2012, 04:39:52 pm
It's the law of conservation of detail, you can make things very large, or very detailed, it takes a lot of time and effort to do both.What I don't understand is how 13 buildings and 3 courtyards make a city.
EDIT: I don't think the elderscrolls games really make nice cities, they make hamlets, even the imperial city it not that large.
That's one of the reasons I don't like non-procedurally generated cities in "seamless" worlds. IMO the best way to depict a large city is to explicitly restrict exploration to a few zones (like Baldur's Gate 2, or BloodNet: you're shown a map, you're not expected to walk the entire length of it). Even better if it has random encounter areas that you only see once.
I guess in a first person game, some other way should be employed to make the cities seem larger than they are.
Bethesda usually tries to make things very detailed, which becomes a big problem when they're dealing with something that's supposed to be very large, because then they have to either spend ten years making it the size it's really supposed to be, cut out on the detail, or make it small. They usually just make it small.
Hopefully we'll soon hit a threshold on graphics and physics where all of the resources that go towards programming a shinier game engine can go towards writing and level design...
Post by: Pnx on August 06, 2012, 04:49:25 pm
One day we'll be able to create procedural engines that can make most of this content for us, and make it feel unique, but until that time all our RPG's are basically just going to be world's of hamlets.
Post by: Sergius on August 06, 2012, 05:03:27 pm
It's the law of conservation of detail, you can make things very large, or very detailed, it takes a lot of time and effort to do both.What I don't understand is how 13 buildings and 3 courtyards make a city.
EDIT: I don't think the elderscrolls games really make nice cities, they make hamlets, even the imperial city it not that large.
That's one of the reasons I don't like non-procedurally generated cities in "seamless" worlds. IMO the best way to depict a large city is to explicitly restrict exploration to a few zones (like Baldur's Gate 2, or BloodNet: you're shown a map, you're not expected to walk the entire length of it). Even better if it has random encounter areas that you only see once.
I guess in a first person game, some other way should be employed to make the cities seem larger than they are.
Bethesda usually tries to make things very detailed, which becomes a big problem when they're dealing with something that's supposed to be very large, because then they have to either spend ten years making it the size it's really supposed to be, cut out on the detail, or make it small. They usually just make it small.
You can still be VERY detailed, just don't pretend it's a city. Just call it a city block, and make it so that somehow you can't even visit the rest. Just make it clear that the transitions aren't bringing you to the next adjacent "room", but to some other "district" that is maybe far away.
They already enabled that the moment they went with closed cities anyway. But they insist in having each area to fit the other like a lego block or a piece of a puzzle. Nothing stops them from having a humongous city with only 3 major areas to visit and the rest being not even existing except for maybe a skyline.
The problem is not detail so much that they want everything to be "explorable". Also wanting every capital city to be that place where "everybody knows your name". I mean if this was the real world I wouldn't know the name of every citizen just by looking at him, and meet then entire population in the first hour of visiting...
EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say, is that while most sensible world designers would call this a city:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Bethesda crew insist that the same city should be like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Because of some misguided justification of "if it takes up space, it should be an explorable area". Note that both cases are, in-game, the exact same thing. In TES, it would use the same amount of resources, you'd explore them the same way, same time to design each area, etc. But at least one gives the illusion that there's more than 50 people living in it. You can even make the exterior bigger than the actual city (just add a few rooftops as filler).
Post by: NRN_R_Sumo1 on August 06, 2012, 05:19:22 pm
Honestly, Morrowind was the best I've played, as I've never played daggerfall.
I most certainly put over 1000 hours into Morrowind, and with the amount of modding I did, about 600 into oblivion.
Skyrim is certainly better than oblivion is by a land slide, but with so little depth, and a rather terrible distribution its suffered in my oppinion, as I can not be boned to mod for it, or even play mods made by other people.
To be honest what I miss most about Morrowind is the nitty gritty atmosphere, which was semi-brought back in skyrim, but was blended with the bright frilly colours of oblivion.
Post by: Sergius on August 06, 2012, 05:26:07 pm
Reminds me a bit of Breath of Fire 2's village that you made from several choices.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 06, 2012, 05:28:21 pm
Post by: Sergius on August 06, 2012, 05:31:53 pm
There is actually a 'build your own house' mod for skyrim. You collect the resources and decide what to build, how to decorate it, etc.
Aha! That's what I'm talking about!
Thanks, just Googled it (last time I searched was probably before this was uploaded). Hopefully it doesn't need SKSE or uses anything except standard scripting (none of that "Settlers" nonsense with rotation and other weird stuff).
Now we just need a mod for an entire town :D
Post by: MorleyDev on August 06, 2012, 05:33:42 pm
Hopefully we'll soon hit a threshold on graphics and physics where all of the resources that go towards programming a shinier game engine can go towards writing and level design...
Yeeah the programmers on these big games aren't the same people as those who do the writing and level design. That's a whole other team.
When the programmers are making the game engine "prototype-ready" what do you think the writers, level designers and artists are doing? Well duh: The early writing, level designing and art asset creation (my petition to name this last one to to "arting" has received precious few signatures).
It's a pretty concurrent process, especially nowadays where agile development is a popular concept. If ever the team reaches a point where team is waiting completely on another to finish and the project isn't in it's home stretch before going gold, it's often a sign they or the project are one or more of the following:
A) Running behind.
B) Poorly organised.
C) Poorly designed.
D) Utterly screwed.
All not needing to build the "shiny new game engine" would mean is less programmers are hired for the project. The project is still going to be built around timing everything so these tasks are done in parallel.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 06, 2012, 05:34:25 pm
Agreed, a town mod in a similar vein to this one would be fantastic. There are plenty of very nice areas for new towns in skyrim.There is actually a 'build your own house' mod for skyrim. You collect the resources and decide what to build, how to decorate it, etc.
Aha! That's what I'm talking about!
Thanks, just Googled it (last time I searched was probably before this was uploaded). Hopefully it doesn't need SKSE or uses anything except standard scripting (none of that "Settlers" nonsense with rotation and other weird stuff).
Now we just need a mod for an entire town :D
Post by: Sergius on August 06, 2012, 05:39:37 pm
To be fair to Bethesda the "If it is visible it can be explored" attitude is kinda the whole point of The Elder Scrolls games and for some does manage to be a damn sight more immersive than a city of 1000 static doors...
No need for any static doors. In fact, no need for any change at all in the city's cells. Just a bigger footprint in the overland map.
Think of Oblivion's Imperial City. If those zones weren't clearly "adjacent", the city would be bigger. No change in the cells. Any "static doors" are completely offscreen since you never walk by them, they are never modeled, or placed, or seen. You travel from Cell A to Cell B, and it is implied that you walked by 10 blocks of unimportant houses or whatever you want. The only difference is that there isn't a clearly drawn 1 foot thick wall separating both cells.
Post by: pisskop on August 06, 2012, 05:40:34 pm
The lack of true guilds may have been part of the chaos of the time, but all of the questlines felt a little rushed, and as a result I cared little if my current character lived or not. The worst questline was the main one, as it introduced new, odd magics and rather high health monsters that required simple tactic to overcome. The whole thing felt wrong to me.
The modifications were okay for awhile. I could live with the simplified barter system(not even barter any longer). The dragons were made stronger and the villians deadlier. Combat fatigue had effect, and magic was even enhanced. But making a game harder is not always making it better. The game brought many new things to the table... sneaking was a huge improvement, and although I rarely theives I heard it could be fun. Necromancy was done pretty well, graphic were enjoyable, etc. But, in the end, I moved on sooner rather than later, maybe having a total of seven characters(given the rate at which I restart games like this this is looow) I played past 20.
The armour system pissed the hell out of me, too.
Post by: towerdude on August 06, 2012, 08:36:57 pm
To be fair to Bethesda the "If it is visible it can be explored" attitude is kinda the whole point of The Elder Scrolls games and for some does manage to be a damn sight more immersive than a city of 1000 static doors...
No need for any static doors. In fact, no need for any change at all in the city's cells. Just a bigger footprint in the overland map.
Think of Oblivion's Imperial City. If those zones weren't clearly "adjacent", the city would be bigger. No change in the cells. Any "static doors" are completely offscreen since you never walk by them, they are never modeled, or placed, or seen. You travel from Cell A to Cell B, and it is implied that you walked by 10 blocks of unimportant houses or whatever you want. The only difference is that there isn't a clearly drawn 1 foot thick wall separating both cells.
I have read what you have written, I think the closest you can get is a world built by player, and governed by admins (no not spam a Himalaya like region with huts).
Try http://www.wurmonline.com/ (http://www.wurmonline.com/)
An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5EUHqSEcFg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5EUHqSEcFg)
You can build like in Minecraft, but it has graphics like Morrowind, you can change the terrain too. But if you want to build megaporject you need several months and lots of players, so it is more realistic. To build a small house in the woods, you actually need a day.
Everything you see (except the trees and the river) is player built. But if you are persistent, you can carve out a water channel for ships to sail.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 06, 2012, 09:04:57 pm
Post by: Tellemurius on August 06, 2012, 09:25:14 pm
There is actually a 'build your own house' mod for skyrim. You collect the resources and decide what to build, how to decorate it, etc.Its nice but im looking for a "Build your own Stronghold" mod, morrowind definitely interested me in it (if anyone still plays Telvanni, look for the "Build up Uriviths Grave" mod, best stronghold mod ever)
Post by: Teneb on August 06, 2012, 09:55:52 pm
if anyone still plays Telvanni, look for the "Build up Uriviths Grave" mod, best stronghold mod ever
Mournhold/Almalexia was rebuilt over the ruins of the old one, probably after the ALMSIVI tapped the Heart, so that one can be explained. The Imperial City doesn't look like it can be easily explained, I think.
My favorite city in vanilla MW is probably Uvirith's Grave (after stronghold is built, of course). The "Building Up Uvirith's Grave" mod probably influences that.
I'm afraid I've beaten you to that.
Post by: Tellemurius on August 06, 2012, 10:01:27 pm
NNNNOOOOOOOif anyone still plays Telvanni, look for the "Build up Uriviths Grave" mod, best stronghold mod everMournhold/Almalexia was rebuilt over the ruins of the old one, probably after the ALMSIVI tapped the Heart, so that one can be explained. The Imperial City doesn't look like it can be easily explained, I think.
My favorite city in vanilla MW is probably Uvirith's Grave (after stronghold is built, of course). The "Building Up Uvirith's Grave" mod probably influences that.
I'm afraid I've beaten you to that.
they only place that got no love was the redoran stronghold
Post by: Teneb on August 06, 2012, 10:10:51 pm
Unlike Uvirith's Grave, both Bal Isra and the Odai Plateau were pretty bad when it came to expansion room. Especially because of how Hlaalu and Redoran buildings are shaped.NNNNOOOOOOOif anyone still plays Telvanni, look for the "Build up Uriviths Grave" mod, best stronghold mod everMournhold/Almalexia was rebuilt over the ruins of the old one, probably after the ALMSIVI tapped the Heart, so that one can be explained. The Imperial City doesn't look like it can be easily explained, I think.
My favorite city in vanilla MW is probably Uvirith's Grave (after stronghold is built, of course). The "Building Up Uvirith's Grave" mod probably influences that.
I'm afraid I've beaten you to that.
they only place that got no love was the redoran stronghold
Post by: Tellemurius on August 06, 2012, 10:16:03 pm
there was a hlaalu mod that expanded across the canyon and built another mine on the other side. Had a boat in everything.Unlike Uvirith's Grave, both Bal Isra and the Odai Plateau were pretty bad when it came to expansion room. Especially because of how Hlaalu and Redoran buildings are shaped.NNNNOOOOOOOif anyone still plays Telvanni, look for the "Build up Uriviths Grave" mod, best stronghold mod everMournhold/Almalexia was rebuilt over the ruins of the old one, probably after the ALMSIVI tapped the Heart, so that one can be explained. The Imperial City doesn't look like it can be easily explained, I think.
My favorite city in vanilla MW is probably Uvirith's Grave (after stronghold is built, of course). The "Building Up Uvirith's Grave" mod probably influences that.
I'm afraid I've beaten you to that.
they only place that got no love was the redoran stronghold
had a quest for that expansion, another for building a new yellow book, and another to destroy the Commona Tong's influence from the House.
Post by: Sergius on August 06, 2012, 11:16:26 pm
[/spoiler]Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Wrong thread dude.
Post by: towerdude on August 06, 2012, 11:32:46 pm
[/spoiler]Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Wrong thread dude.
I made this thread dude. And I really wanted to help, never tried it personally though (I know it's free).
Also I think grid planned cities are more functional, but extremely boring, and don't have a soul. It's like you are on a vacation for Europe, go to Rome, and eat in a Mc Donald's, terrible.
Post by: towerdude on August 06, 2012, 11:33:43 pm
yay random advertisements
Not an advertisement, it is a comment from the thread maker.
Post by: Sergius on August 06, 2012, 11:44:00 pm
[/spoiler]Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Wrong thread dude.
I made this thread dude. And I really wanted to help, never tried it personally though (I know it's free).
Also I think grid planned cities are more functional, but extremely boring, and don't have a soul. It's like you are on a vacation for Europe, go to Rome, and eat in a Mc Donald's, terrible.
What ARE you talking about? I really have no idea what your last posts have to do with anything?
Who's talking about Wurm, or admins, I have no idea. That's why I said "wrong thread", because it doesn't matter if you made it, you're just saying random things at this time.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 07, 2012, 01:18:09 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 07, 2012, 06:36:46 am
Thread maker or not, its a completely off-topic advertisement for an unrelated game which looks like utter crap. You seem to be taking this 'thread-maker' stuff far too seriously.yay random advertisementsNot an advertisement, it is a comment from the thread maker.
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 08:09:29 am
[/spoiler]Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Wrong thread dude.
I made this thread dude. And I really wanted to help, never tried it personally though (I know it's free).
Also I think grid planned cities are more functional, but extremely boring, and don't have a soul. It's like you are on a vacation for Europe, go to Rome, and eat in a Mc Donald's, terrible.
What ARE you talking about? I really have no idea what your last posts have to do with anything?
Who's talking about Wurm, or admins, I have no idea. That's why I said "wrong thread", because it doesn't matter if you made it, you're just saying random things at this time.
I see now my original comment was directed at Indarel's. Regarding the town layout, to see a game where the players build a world for comparison. But it could also fit for your Baldur's Gate comment, since you said not everything should be explorable area, because that makes cities small. You can make a large and detailed city, if you let in volunteers (notably players) but that only works for online games.
Mournhold and the Imperial City give me a funny feeling about urban planning. Who actually makes a city like that? Do they just decide to make a perfectly circular wall, then say "let's divide it with a cross in the middle, later we figure out what to put in each side"? So symmetrical...
The city layouts you see in most games tend to be utter crap.
Because the people designing things have no clue of (urban) history and the factors that determine how cities and roads form and grow IRL.
Planned cities tend to have grid patterns. Anything that started as a roman fort or a properly planned greek or roman colony has atleast a core based on a grid layout with some sort of rectangular walls around it. Those roman forts tended to be pretty much symmetrical. Take a look at a map of Manhattan and you can see multiple stages of extensions with slightly different patterns. Road layouts tend to remain the same over centuries and even millenia. So what started as roads between some roman barracks can survive for 2000 years.
Parts that aren't planned tend to result into rings around some point of interest... like churches or market places or crossroads along important trade routes and less order in general.
City walls tend to be somewhat expensive to build, so there is an incentive to use the space inside of them as efficiently as possible. Using lots space for trees or gardens is something you won't see often within walled cities.
Imperial fortifications in Elderscroll Games don't really look like anything the roman empire would build.
In games cities often end up with some sort of deliberately planned layout or geometrical pattern. That pattern will apply to the whole city and you won't see any changes in that pattern indicating multiple stages of growth. Those patterns tend not to be grid-based but something more elaborate, usually resulting in longer routes than necessary. So basically they are planned but planned to be inefficient and annoying.
If there are city walls ingame, atleast 60% of the space within those wall tends not to be used for anything.
Sometimes you see some sort of modular city like Vivec or Stormwind ... which are of course utter crap for traffic and mostly a waste of space and resources.
Not to mention that ingame cities tend to be comically small. Usually they're more theme park than a believable part of world inhabited by rational beings.
Post by: Sergius on August 07, 2012, 08:10:15 am
EDIT: Re: your last comment: NO it doesn't fit to my comment about Baldur's Gate, where the city size is IMPLIED not SHOWN. Wurm has nothing to do with it, and having a large moderated community of users creating each single house in a 1'000,000 inhabitant city has absolutely no bearing on my comment.
Let's say you have to put a sign on each city that says:
Welcome to Balmora
Commercial Hub of Morrowind (or whatever)
Population: 20
Wouldn't you rather put
Population: 50,000
And then just say "well, the city is actually bigger, you're just visiting a small part of it."
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 08:19:11 am
Thread maker or not, its a completely off-topic advertisement for an unrelated game which looks like utter crap. You seem to be taking this 'thread-maker' stuff far too seriously.yay random advertisementsNot an advertisement, it is a comment from the thread maker.
Then any mention of another game than a TES one, is also off topic. You see I don't like internet dictatorship, and most threads and forums are like that, don't get me wrong I am not into totally free talk (like viagre commercials), that is why this thread has a title.
One commenter complained about the layout of TES cities, I wanted to show him a different example, where people build their towns and design them. You can judge virtual city layouts better if you actually see ones, that were designed by those who use them. In this case wurm online is a research tool.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 07, 2012, 08:22:26 am
It just amused me how you declared the announcement that a DLC expansion for a TES game currently being discussed is now available as inappropriate for this thread but you have no problems promoting some crappy MMO.Thread maker or not, its a completely off-topic advertisement for an unrelated game which looks like utter crap. You seem to be taking this 'thread-maker' stuff far too seriously.yay random advertisementsNot an advertisement, it is a comment from the thread maker.
Then any mention of another game than a TES one, is also off topic. You see I don't like internet dictatorship, and most threads and forums are like that, don't get me wrong I am not into totally free talk (like viagre commercials), that is why this thread has a title.
One commenter complained about the layout of TES cities, I wanted to show him a different example, where people build their towns and design them. You can judge virtual city layouts better if you actually see ones, that were designed by those who use them. In this case wurm online is a research tool.
Post by: Haspen on August 07, 2012, 08:25:50 am
One commenter complained about the layout of TES cities, I wanted to show him a different example
You could've posted just a few pics from both Morrowind and Wurm (for easy comparison) and the tensions would be much smaller. Rather than stuffing game link in separate line like a blatant 'click me now' ad thing :P
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 08:27:13 am
Obviously the "ThreadMaker(TM)" has somehow interpreted my posts as "TES sucks, I want to see another game instead, with 1000s of houses in a grid", while I'm saying the exact opposite: you don't NEED to make 1000 houses. You just need to SAY that there are 1000 houses in the Imperial City and NOT SHOW THEM.
EDIT: Re: your last comment: NO it doesn't fit to my comment about Baldur's Gate, where the city size is IMPLIED not SHOWN. Wurm has nothing to do with it, and having a large moderated community of users creating each single house in a 1'000,000 inhabitant city has absolutely no bearing on my comment.
Let's say you have to put a sign on each city that says:
Welcome to Balmora
Commercial Hub of Morrowind (or whatever)
Population: 20
Wouldn't you rather put
Population: 50,000
And then just say "well, the city is actually bigger, you're just visiting a small part of it."
Sadly you are not a mindreader. That was there to give an idea about cities, where every building was built on purpose, so a town has just as many houses, as inhabitants. For me that is good research to test this idea more practically.
What you said is just a cheap attempt from the developers to make the city larger, I really hate those games where the maps says there is an area, but you can't visit it. That is why I never really cared if the town in TES games are small, the only one which was a disappointment at first look was the Imperial city, but later I begin to like it too. If am in a (supposed) big city and I just travel seamlessly large distances without continuation, that gives me a very unrealistic feeling.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 07, 2012, 08:29:42 am
Obviously the "ThreadMaker(TM)" has somehow interpreted my posts as "TES sucks, I want to see another game instead, with 1000s of houses in a grid", while I'm saying the exact opposite: you don't NEED to make 1000 houses. You just need to SAY that there are 1000 houses in the Imperial City and NOT SHOW THEM.For the record, I completely agree with you. I loved how games like neverwinter nights abstracted out most of the city, instead allowing you to explore important areas and specific city districts. Dragon Age did the same, giving you an actual city map with important locations which you fast travel between and even included random encounters in alleyways and streets along the way. You don't need to have every single area be contiguous and explorable, and in fact it hurts immersion a bit. I mean the Imperial City in oblivion, seat of the Empire, was laughably tiny. There were maybe 100-150 actors total in the entire thing.
Post by: Sergius on August 07, 2012, 08:31:14 am
Obviously the "ThreadMaker(TM)" has somehow interpreted my posts as "TES sucks, I want to see another game instead, with 1000s of houses in a grid", while I'm saying the exact opposite: you don't NEED to make 1000 houses. You just need to SAY that there are 1000 houses in the Imperial City and NOT SHOW THEM.
EDIT: Re: your last comment: NO it doesn't fit to my comment about Baldur's Gate, where the city size is IMPLIED not SHOWN. Wurm has nothing to do with it, and having a large moderated community of users creating each single house in a 1'000,000 inhabitant city has absolutely no bearing on my comment.
Let's say you have to put a sign on each city that says:
Welcome to Balmora
Commercial Hub of Morrowind (or whatever)
Population: 20
Wouldn't you rather put
Population: 50,000
And then just say "well, the city is actually bigger, you're just visiting a small part of it."
Sadly you are not a mindreader. That was there to give an idea about cities, where every building was built on purpose, so a town has just as many houses, as inhabitants. For me that is good research to test this idea more practically.
What you said is just a cheap attempt from the developers to make the city larger, I really hate those games where the maps says there is an area, but you can't visit it. That is why I never really cared if the town in TES games are small, the only one which was a disappointment at first look was the Imperial city, but later I begin to like it too. If am in a (supposed) big city and I just travel seamlessly large distances without continuation, that gives me a very unrealistic feeling.
Actually yes, I am a mindreader. It's one of my superpowers. I am very well aware of the subset of gamers that enjoy being able to map every single square inch of every city in their games, and that they prefer that to the sense that they exist in a world that is not the size of a school project diorama.
I'm also well aware that most people who like TES games don't defend that bad design choice as something "inherent to the series" or that somehow "it's the whole point of the experience" or that it is a "cheap attempt" to say "there's a whole world out there" without making sure you can walk along the equator visiting each single landmark until you go all around the globe.
Obviously the "ThreadMaker(TM)" has somehow interpreted my posts as "TES sucks, I want to see another game instead, with 1000s of houses in a grid", while I'm saying the exact opposite: you don't NEED to make 1000 houses. You just need to SAY that there are 1000 houses in the Imperial City and NOT SHOW THEM.For the record, I completely agree with you. I loved how games like neverwinter nights abstracted out most of the city, instead allowing you to explore important areas and specific city districts. Dragon Age did the same, giving you an actual city map with important locations which you fast travel between and even included random encounters in alleyways and streets along the way. You don't need to have every single area be contiguous and explorable, and in fact it hurts immersion a bit. I mean the Imperial City in oblivion, seat of the Empire, was laughably tiny. There were maybe 100-150 actors total in the entire thing.
Thanks. I agree about the Imperial City. It was literally 3 or 4 courtyards, *ahem* districts, and ONE of them had... 10 houses in it!
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 08:33:51 am
It just amused me how you declared the announcement that a DLC expansion for a TES game currently being discussed is now available as inappropriate for this thread but you have no problems promoting some crappy MMO.Thread maker or not, its a completely off-topic advertisement for an unrelated game which looks like utter crap. You seem to be taking this 'thread-maker' stuff far too seriously.yay random advertisementsNot an advertisement, it is a comment from the thread maker.
Then any mention of another game than a TES one, is also off topic. You see I don't like internet dictatorship, and most threads and forums are like that, don't get me wrong I am not into totally free talk (like viagre commercials), that is why this thread has a title.
One commenter complained about the layout of TES cities, I wanted to show him a different example, where people build their towns and design them. You can judge virtual city layouts better if you actually see ones, that were designed by those who use them. In this case wurm online is a research tool.
You english are really just slow, or willingly don't want to understand me.
The guy who said that DLC, didn't said anything else, he just posted that, and left. No meaningful discussion. If he have said it in a more detailed way, and actually posted his opinion about it that would have brought something to this thread.
I have said very clearly why I have mentioned wurm online, I won't repeat myself a thouands of times. I never played it and never will, but it is a good example to study city layouts, that were designed mainly out of use, less out of looks. It gives you a better idea to judge TES cities, and not just say: their layout is crap.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 07, 2012, 08:37:48 am
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 08:42:04 am
Obviously the "ThreadMaker(TM)" has somehow interpreted my posts as "TES sucks, I want to see another game instead, with 1000s of houses in a grid", while I'm saying the exact opposite: you don't NEED to make 1000 houses. You just need to SAY that there are 1000 houses in the Imperial City and NOT SHOW THEM.For the record, I completely agree with you. I loved how games like neverwinter nights abstracted out most of the city, instead allowing you to explore important areas and specific city districts. Dragon Age did the same, giving you an actual city map with important locations which you fast travel between and even included random encounters in alleyways and streets along the way. You don't need to have every single area be contiguous and explorable, and in fact it hurts immersion a bit. I mean the Imperial City in oblivion, seat of the Empire, was laughably tiny. There were maybe 100-150 actors total in the entire thing.
When I play TES and if it hits me witha good feeling of immersion, the small towns (even if it is IC) don't break that. Actually I can see the limitations of design and accept that.
I like two types of games:
paper based or forum based where everything is mostly in your imagination (the looks, travel etc.), with limited restrcition (game master, rule book).
or games that show you everything they got, like TES
If they want to mix it, it becomes just a cheap attempt to make a larger world, and it doesn't really immersive. I have played those kind of games, but I have always felt I am just a dude who controls a dude. In TES like games I have always felt I am the one who does the exploration.
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 08:45:59 am
Before you insult my English, you may want to check your own. :)
I was correct about you. I didn't insulted your english, I said you don't want to understand what I want to say. Because you completely misinterpreted it. That is not an issue of grammar.
Still you just deliberately do this, or we have some cultural differences, I don't know, but you just misrepresent what I say.
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 09:01:29 am
Obviously the "ThreadMaker(TM)" has somehow interpreted my posts as "TES sucks, I want to see another game instead, with 1000s of houses in a grid", while I'm saying the exact opposite: you don't NEED to make 1000 houses. You just need to SAY that there are 1000 houses in the Imperial City and NOT SHOW THEM.
EDIT: Re: your last comment: NO it doesn't fit to my comment about Baldur's Gate, where the city size is IMPLIED not SHOWN. Wurm has nothing to do with it, and having a large moderated community of users creating each single house in a 1'000,000 inhabitant city has absolutely no bearing on my comment.
Let's say you have to put a sign on each city that says:
Welcome to Balmora
Commercial Hub of Morrowind (or whatever)
Population: 20
Wouldn't you rather put
Population: 50,000
And then just say "well, the city is actually bigger, you're just visiting a small part of it."
Sadly you are not a mindreader. That was there to give an idea about cities, where every building was built on purpose, so a town has just as many houses, as inhabitants. For me that is good research to test this idea more practically.
What you said is just a cheap attempt from the developers to make the city larger, I really hate those games where the maps says there is an area, but you can't visit it. That is why I never really cared if the town in TES games are small, the only one which was a disappointment at first look was the Imperial city, but later I begin to like it too. If am in a (supposed) big city and I just travel seamlessly large distances without continuation, that gives me a very unrealistic feeling.
Actually yes, I am a mindreader. It's one of my superpowers. I am very well aware of the subset of gamers that enjoy being able to map every single square inch of every city in their games, and that they prefer that to the sense that they exist in a world that is not the size of a school project diorama.
I'm also well aware that most people who like TES games don't defend that bad design choice as something "inherent to the series" or that somehow "it's the whole point of the experience" or that it is a "cheap attempt" to say "there's a whole world out there" without making sure you can walk along the equator visiting each single landmark until you go all around the globe.
You are mistaken. It is not about exploring every square inch, but simply about exploring. It is the knowledge that you can go anywhere withing the game world (like in Morrowind I knew I don't have entire Tamriel because that would took 20 years to build, but withing Vvardenfel I could gone anyhwere).
In the real world if I want to visit Paris, and I live in Lyon, I know it's there and I could go there (no matter if I never will), and it isn't just a mark on the map.
Post by: Sergius on August 07, 2012, 09:02:44 am
I like two types of games:
Only two? I like a lot more than two.
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paper based or forum based where everything is mostly in your imagination (the looks, travel etc.), with limited restrcition (game master, rule book).
or games that show you everything they got, like TES
It breaks immersion when a world "shows you everything it's got". In reality, you wouldn't "see everything that there is to see". Being able to do that just makes people feel they live in a holodeck. You know that place where everybody knows your name? That's not a country. That's called a "pub".
Quote
If they want to mix it, it becomes just a cheap attempt to make a larger world, and it doesn't really immersive. I have played those kind of games, but I have always felt I am just a dude who controls a dude. In TES like games I have always felt I am the one who does the exploration.
Holy generalization, Batman! So, anything that doesn't cater to your very specific tastes is a cheap attempt. Gotcha.
Quote
In the real world if I want to visit Paris, and I live in Lyon, I know it's there and I could go there (no matter if I never will), and it isn't just a mark on the map.
In the real world, you're never going to know the entirety of Paris. NEVER. Parisians don't know the entirety of Paris.
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 09:42:25 am
I like two types of games:
Only two? I like a lot more than two.Quotepaper based or forum based where everything is mostly in your imagination (the looks, travel etc.), with limited restrcition (game master, rule book).
or games that show you everything they got, like TES
It breaks immersion when a world "shows you everything it's got". In reality, you wouldn't "see everything that there is to see". Being able to do that just makes people feel they live in a holodeck. You know that place where everybody knows your name? That's not a country. That's called a "pub".QuoteIf they want to mix it, it becomes just a cheap attempt to make a larger world, and it doesn't really immersive. I have played those kind of games, but I have always felt I am just a dude who controls a dude. In TES like games I have always felt I am the one who does the exploration.
Holy generalization, Batman! So, anything that doesn't cater to your very specific tastes is a cheap attempt. Gotcha.QuoteIn the real world if I want to visit Paris, and I live in Lyon, I know it's there and I could go there (no matter if I never will), and it isn't just a mark on the map.
In the real world, you're never going to know the entirety of Paris. NEVER. Parisians don't know the entirety of Paris.
Invisible and unreachable ares break the immersion. In morrowind they just call me a outlander, nobody really knows me. My reputation is built up around my actions, how many people heard the name Barack Obama for example? If you have a higher position more people know your name.
I didn't said everything, I for example accept that you like those kind of games better. But if I see a region what is there, and I can't explore, but the game says I just walked through it, then it is cheap.
(http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough/images/map1.gif)
How it breaks the immersion? If I play text based game, any kind of 3D real time environment would break the immersion. If I play a heavily visualied game, any kind of text based or just mentioned area what I supposedly explored (when that games reality didn't) brakes the immersion.
Never say never. Some people may not, but it is not impossible. Even in 1 year you can do a lot of things, let alone several years. People have habits to use mostly familiar roads and ignore all the others where they don't have any business, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible for them.
Is it logical to have a world where you could only visit places where relevant to your productive interest? Maybe, but it is totally boring.
Post by: Sergius on August 07, 2012, 10:25:36 am
QuoteQuoteIn the real world if I want to visit Paris, and I live in Lyon, I know it's there and I could go there (no matter if I never will), and it isn't just a mark on the map.
In the real world, you're never going to know the entirety of Paris. NEVER. Parisians don't know the entirety of Paris.
Never say never. Some people may not, but it is not impossible. Even in 1 year you can do a lot of things, let alone several years. People have habits to use mostly familiar roads and ignore all the others where they don't have any business, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible for them.
Just the fact that you think a person can visit the entirety of a large metropolitan city (every landmark, cafe, pub, shop, park, traverse every single street, even if we skip visitting every house, which apparently we can do in TES because each city consists of 20-50 people) during a single lifetime has convinced me that there is no sense arguing any of this with you anymore.
Just that you say "never say never" and then point to something that's very unlikely tells me you're grasping at straws.
Quote
Is it logical to have a world where you could only visit places where relevant to your productive interest? Maybe, but it is totally boring.
Having a world that consists of a pub and 4 houses is totally boring. Being able to explore them all doesn't make it less boring or immersion-breaking.
And posting that map and saying "immersion breaking!" doesn't make it so. I'm sure you don't look at the moon and yell "immersion breaking!" because there isn't a rocket that can get you there.
Post by: Sergius on August 07, 2012, 10:31:58 am
So, basically, TES fails at its own standards, according to you, towerdude.
Post by: Haspen on August 07, 2012, 10:35:17 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 07, 2012, 10:37:18 am
Should I report this thread for all the arguing, double/triple-posts and derailment? :vIf you feel it necessary, sure.
Post by: Teneb on August 07, 2012, 10:48:18 am
Unless people calm down, doing so may be necessary.Should I report this thread for all the arguing, double/triple-posts and derailment? :vIf you feel it necessary, sure.
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 10:48:29 am
QuoteQuoteIn the real world if I want to visit Paris, and I live in Lyon, I know it's there and I could go there (no matter if I never will), and it isn't just a mark on the map.
In the real world, you're never going to know the entirety of Paris. NEVER. Parisians don't know the entirety of Paris.
Never say never. Some people may not, but it is not impossible. Even in 1 year you can do a lot of things, let alone several years. People have habits to use mostly familiar roads and ignore all the others where they don't have any business, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible for them.
Just the fact that you think a person can visit the entirety of a large metropolitan city (every landmark, cafe, pub, shop, park, traverse every single street, even if we skip visitting every house, which apparently we can do in TES because each city consists of 20-50 people) during a single lifetime has convinced me that there is no sense arguing any of this with you anymore.
Just that you say "never say never" and then point to something that's very unlikely tells me you're grasping at straws.QuoteIs it logical to have a world where you could only visit places where relevant to your productive interest? Maybe, but it is totally boring.
Having a world that consists of a pub and 4 houses is totally boring. Being able to explore them all doesn't make it less boring or immersion-breaking.
And posting that map and saying "immersion breaking!" doesn't make it so. I'm sure you don't look at the moon and yell "immersion breaking!" because there isn't a rocket that can get you there.
Or you are just too lazy to read what I have said as it is, and it is easier to position it as something ridiculous, and dismiss it on that ground. Paris is not that large, and my main point wasn't about that they could explore it entirely, it was only a secondary argument. But even that doesn't mean one person is incapable to do that in a lifetime (obviously you have obstactles like trespassing laws, but in theory you are capable to do that). The main point was, that it is there, you could go there if you really want to, it exists.
Saying that TES like worlds are just a pub and 4 houses compared to Baldur's Gate like ones is just overlooking the world theme and sweeping generalization. I don't judge TES world as our's (by size), for me it can all make sense to play in a small, but connected world, I just imagine it as a real life island, like Iceland. It is more interesting for me to explore a small island in Far Cry, then exploring a 100 times larger world, which actually has the same area size.
Your comment about te moon is pretty much stupid, sorry. It is another object in our solar system separated by hunder-thousand of km-res from us, generally uninhabitable. But if a fantasy game is placed on one connected world, its is entirely different. I can't walk to the moon, but I can to China (even if it takes a few years). If I have a game like WoW, where there is an entirely different world (Outland), it is reasonable that you can't simply walk there.
Also the Moon is definitely there and if you really want to go there you could. Wouldn't it be boring if, one time you ask what is Mars, and they say: well it is a planet like ours, but it don't really exist, just have a visual image on the sky.
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 10:56:55 am
That reminds me, Skyrim is totally boring and immersion breaking, because you can see Morrowind from there but you can't walk to it.
So, basically, TES fails at its own standards, according to you, towerdude.
You just didn't read what I have said. Skyrim places you in a province, so from start you know that you could explore it entirely. You don't just barge into Whiterun and see an area that is marked (interrim city where you can't go). It is continous it has borders, but within those borders you don't ecounter those kind of areas. However I don't really like Skyrim, because it don't have for instance levitation (not the only reason), so to a certain sense it fails the series. This is why I have started this thread in the first place, I really wanted to see what people think about the games, and compare them.
What I say if there is a world what has only patches of explorable area, but claims to be exist as that larger world, Lotr online is an example of this.
In Arena the Imperial Palace gardens is like that, you see it, but you can't go through it, it just teleport you into the palace.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 07, 2012, 10:58:20 am
There is a reason I've simply given up on this and am just sitting back to watch with popcorn in hand.Unless people calm down, doing so may be necessary.Should I report this thread for all the arguing, double/triple-posts and derailment? :vIf you feel it necessary, sure.
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 11:00:52 am
Should I report this thread for all the arguing, double/triple-posts and derailment? :v
Arguments bring the world forward, if we wouldn't have arguments, we would never have invented the things we have today. Arguments create bring new ideas we have never encountered, and this enriches our perception, so we won't remain in our own closed world.
For instance, despite not agreeing with Sergius, his different views give me a better overall vision.
Also why is bad to have double posts, when I answer to two different people or comments? I can only think of memory conserving reasons for the servers, but that isn't really an issue, in regard of the amount conserved (percentage of overall power).
Post by: Sergius on August 07, 2012, 11:01:20 am
Or you are just too lazy to read what I have said as it is, and it is easier to position it as something ridiculous, and dismiss it on that ground.
It is you who keeps misrepresenting everything I say and just say it's a cheap attempt that breaks immersion.
Quote
Paris is not that large, and my main point wasn't about that they could explore it entirely, it was only a secondary argument. But even that doesn't mean one person is incapable to do that in a lifetime (obviously you have obstactles like trespassing laws, but in theory you are capable to do that). The main point was, that it is there, you could go there if you really want to, it exists.
Paris is 105.4 km² in area (that's probably larger than Tamriel, since each kingdom is aprox. 16 square miles). It has 16 million people. If you could meet one person per half hour (assuming average travel times and zero sleep), you'd need 900 years to meet them all.
Quote
Saying that TES like worlds are just a pub and 4 houses compared to Baldur's Gate like ones is just overlooking the world theme and sweeping generalization
And now look who is too lazy to read. Did I say that TES is a pub with 4 houses? Citation needed.
Quote
Your comment about te moon is pretty much stupid, sorry. It is another object in our solar system separated by hunder-thousand of km-res from us, generally uninhabitable. But if a fantasy game is placed on one connected world, its is entirely different. I can't walk to the moon, but I can to China (even if it takes a few years). If I have a game like WoW, where there is an entirely different world (Outland), it is reasonable that you can't simply walk there.
Really? Walk from Skyrim to Vvanderfell then. It's there. You can see it. There's even an arch and a road leading there.
Wait... are you saying that TES breaks immersion because you can't? Oh yes you are.
That reminds me, Skyrim is totally boring and immersion breaking, because you can see Morrowind from there but you can't walk to it.
So, basically, TES fails at its own standards, according to you, towerdude.
You just didn't read what I have said. Skyrim places you in a province, so from start you know that you could explore it entirely. You don't just barge into Whiterun and see an area that is marked (interrim city where you can't go). It is continous it has borders, but within those borders you don't ecounter those kind of areas. However I don't really like Skyrim, because it don't have for instance levitation (not the only reason), so to a certain sense it fails the series. This is why I have started this thread in the first place, I really wanted to see what people think about the games, and compare them.
What I say if there is a world what has only patches of explorable area, but claims to be exist as that larger world, Lotr online is an example of this.
In Arena the Imperial Palace gardens is like that, you see it, but you can't go through it, it just teleport you into the palace.
Borders... I get it! It doesn't break immersion if you have invisible walls keeping you away. Well, in that case, place invisible walls around the city areas you can't visit and say "that's outside the boundary."
I love the way you reply to each of my posts with "you just don't read what I write!". That's probably the laziest way to argue. You just decided that "saying from the start you can't leave the province" is ok, but "saying from the start you can't visit an entire city" is not.
At this point, you've just made up an arbitrary parameter and placed everything that doesn't fit in it "immersion breaking".
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 11:20:54 am
Or you are just too lazy to read what I have said as it is, and it is easier to position it as something ridiculous, and dismiss it on that ground.
It is you who keeps misrepresenting everything I say and just say it's a cheap attempt that breaks immersion.QuoteParis is not that large, and my main point wasn't about that they could explore it entirely, it was only a secondary argument. But even that doesn't mean one person is incapable to do that in a lifetime (obviously you have obstactles like trespassing laws, but in theory you are capable to do that). The main point was, that it is there, you could go there if you really want to, it exists.
Paris is 105.4 km² in area (that's probably larger than Tamriel, since each kingdom is aprox. 16 square miles). It has 16 million people. If you could meet one person per half hour (assuming average travel times and zero sleep), you'd need 900 years to meet them all.QuoteSaying that TES like worlds are just a pub and 4 houses compared to Baldur's Gate like ones is just overlooking the world theme and sweeping generalization
And now look who is too lazy to read. Did I say that TES is a pub with 4 houses? Citation needed.QuoteYour comment about te moon is pretty much stupid, sorry. It is another object in our solar system separated by hunder-thousand of km-res from us, generally uninhabitable. But if a fantasy game is placed on one connected world, its is entirely different. I can't walk to the moon, but I can to China (even if it takes a few years). If I have a game like WoW, where there is an entirely different world (Outland), it is reasonable that you can't simply walk there.
Really? Walk from Skyrim to Vvanderfell then. It's there. You can see it. There's even an arch and a road leading there.
Wait... are you saying that TES breaks immersion because you can't? Oh yes you are.That reminds me, Skyrim is totally boring and immersion breaking, because you can see Morrowind from there but you can't walk to it.
So, basically, TES fails at its own standards, according to you, towerdude.
You just didn't read what I have said. Skyrim places you in a province, so from start you know that you could explore it entirely. You don't just barge into Whiterun and see an area that is marked (interrim city where you can't go). It is continous it has borders, but within those borders you don't ecounter those kind of areas. However I don't really like Skyrim, because it don't have for instance levitation (not the only reason), so to a certain sense it fails the series. This is why I have started this thread in the first place, I really wanted to see what people think about the games, and compare them.
What I say if there is a world what has only patches of explorable area, but claims to be exist as that larger world, Lotr online is an example of this.
In Arena the Imperial Palace gardens is like that, you see it, but you can't go through it, it just teleport you into the palace.
Borders... I get it! It doesn't break immersion if you have invisible walls keeping you away. Well, in that case, place invisible walls around the city areas you can't visit and say "that's outside the boundary."
I love the way you reply to each of my posts with "you just don't read what I write!". That's probably the laziest way to argue. You just decided that "saying from the start you can't leave the province" is ok, but "saying from the start you can't visit an entire city" is not.
Reductio ad Ridiculum, is it valid to use you?
Who said exploring involves meeting every people? Cititation? lol
Who is lazy to read? Did I say TES? "TES like worlds" don't mean TES. You just buggen on this, when you already knew what I have ment with it.
I didn't said that plainly. The reason to artificially inflate a world is on the next image. And that is the main difference between not being able to reach Morrowind; or parts of the world, within your area.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/1resnl.jpg)
I prefer world 1, if it is not possible to have all of the continent.
I have to go, see you later.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 07, 2012, 11:22:08 am
Post by: Sergius on August 07, 2012, 11:23:19 am
Post by: LordBucket on August 07, 2012, 12:02:44 pm
I've played both Daggerafll and Morrowind. Both had similar strengths and weaknesses. Large worlds, interestign game mechanics, highly customizeble characters and magic/enchantment systems, lots of interesting sidequests that could easily keep a player entertained for weeks...and awful main quests that weren't nearly as fun as the rest of the game.
Daggerfall's main quest was arguably better written than Morrowind's. I don't recall ever staring at the screen in shock at how stupid it was. I did occassionally do that while playing Morrowind. But Morrowind's main plot was far more interesting overall, however head-on-desk-banging stupid it was at some points.
Morrowind suffered from a slight lack of replayability compred to Daggerfall. Daggerfall had a lot of dynamically generated content. And some of that content was comparable in complexity to some of Morrowind's guild questlines, and with less railroading. Daggerfall's quest had far more flexlibilty in how they were completed, and with multiple possible endings. But, Daggerfall's dynamic content while sometimes very good, was sometimes irrelevant for how similar things were. Some of the random-joe-nobody-in-a-tavern questgivers spawned quests that were far more interesting than some of the guild quests, some of which were notoriously bad. Mage guild kill quests, for example, were amongst the most tedious affairs in the history of gaming.
...which brings us to Daggerfall's dungeons. Daggerfall had dungeons bigger than most games. Completely and entirely literally...you could go to a random crypt of no consequences in the middle of nowhere, and sometimes it would be a 4-hour long affair. And not because of combat, but because the things were so huge. Individual Daggerfall dungeons were like 3-4 levels of Descent combined. Morrowind dungeons were generally entirely liner affairs. Go in one end, maybe make one or two redundant choices, possibly follow a circle, then reach the end turn around and go back. Daggerfall dungeons were labyrinthine extremely three dimensional mazes, and some individual dungeons (Castle Necromoghan comes to mind) were quite possibly bigger than every dungeon in the entirety of Morrowind combined.
Impressive. But...honestly Daggerfall's dungeons went beyond what could possibly be considered fun. They were too much. And their 3d layout was so honeycombed and complicated that sometimes even something s simple as navigating an inch up on the map visualizer involved several minutes of zooming and rotating to find a path.
Daggerfall also failed in its world map. Yes, it was notoriously big, possibly the largest computer generated game world ever made, without thousands of cities and dungeons and an overland map that would probably takes days or weeks of real time to traverse. In fact, it was so big that most players didn't even realize it was possible to travel from one town to another without automated fast travel. But...there wasn't really much reason to because it was all the same. And there wasn't much reason to visit any of those thousands of cities and dungeons because they were also all the same. And with the way quests were dynamically created, there wasn't really much reason to go anywhere at all. You could easily pick one city with each of the various guilds you cared about and spawn random quests all day long and never have to leave. In fact, as large as many cities were, that was kind of the only reasonable way to play. A medium-sized town in Daggerfall might have several hundred buildings, and spaced out enough that even with magically enchanted speed and flying it could take a couple minutes to travel from one end to another. Larger towns tended to take so long just to get from point A to point B that it was unpleasant. The capital in Daggerfall was big enough that flying from one end to another was a feat of similar magnitude as flying the entire overland gameworld in Morrowind. And it probably had more individual buildings than the whole of Morrowind, too. That's...one city.
Daggerfall did some things very much better than Morrowind: Daggerfall's character paper doll was better. It was pretty much a playfkiss doll game. Hundreds of different possible outfits with lots of cosmetic accessories. Morrowind did this as well, but Daggerfall's was better. Even individual shirts had multiple graphics sets so you could wear a shirt tucked in or loose. Daggerfall's quest generation was better than Morrowind's entirely static quest set. Daggerfall's spell and enchantment system was (debateable, but probably) a bit better too. But other things Morrowind did better. Alchemy in Morrowind was vastly better than the potion maker system in Daggerfall. Morrowind was prettier. Morrowind's world was more well fleshed out and full. Morrowind's dialogue system was much better. And some things they did about the same. Both had lots of ingame books to read. Both had optional quests that could keep one entertained for days or weeks.
Overall I'd say Daggerfall was bigger, more complicated in some ways, and vastly more ambitious. But Morrowind, while smaller, was more well refined. Morrowind was lacking in some ways, a bit simple at times, but overall it gave a better presentation, it was more "fun" and the world more memorable.
Finally, no discussion of Daggerfall would be complete without mentioning it's largest and most complete failling: It was broken. The game was so bug ridden that it was difficult to play to the end without running into some fatal problem that was irrecoverably destroy your savefile. To have any chance of playing you had to make regular backups, or at least cycle through the available saveslots. And sometimes even if you did you'd end up having to revert back hours of gameplay because irrecoverable crashes weren't immediately obvious. Daggerfall also had issues that would render the game unbeatable even without visibly breaking. The most obvious being that if you didn't meet one particular meeting deadline in the early game, it would become impossible to engage the main questline. It would be like in Morrowind, if you didn't report to Caius Cosades in Balmora within the first half hour of play...both he and all other relevant main quest npcs would vanish and it would be impossible to beat the game. And you wouldn't even know it.
Ultimately, I want to like Daggerfall more. It was a multi-level stone castle with a dungeon, moat and flying guards at a time when most other games were tents. But as impressive as it was, it was also unfinished. Tough to live in a castle when it's missing floors and chunks of loosely masonry occasionally fall from the ceiling on your head. Morrowind only seems small and simple in comparison to Daggerfall. It's still more open and more well developed than most other games of its genre. And it has enough refinements and improvements while retaining enough of the spirit of Daggerfall that regardless of the smaller scope, the fact is that Morrowind is more playable and more fun than Daggerfall. Morrowind was good. Daggerfall can best be summarized with "So, awesome! If only..."
So, Morrowind gets my vote.
Post by: Nega on August 07, 2012, 12:28:10 pm
Post by: LordBucket on August 07, 2012, 01:12:29 pm
One thing I liked the most about Daggerfall was that when you made a character, you could see his life's story from before he came to Lliac Bay. It's pretty hard for me to come up with a history of my character sometimes, so I really enjoyed that it had that.
Yes. By no means a game-altering thing, but it was a nice touch. For those who haven't played Daggerfall, it would generate a life story for you based on the character you generated. Your parents, your apprenticeship, personal contacts, how you came to be involved with the story. Morrowind simply deposits you on a boat.
Morrowind starts on you the main quest by giving you a letter to go talk to some guy, because apparently despite having been a prisoner you're apparently now expected to work for the people who imprisoned you. You talk to him and he gives you an entirely linear "do this, now do this" quests. Daggerfall gives you a lengthy, tailored history leading up to a personal interview with the Emperor (voiced by Patrick Stewart, no less) and a set of multiple apparently-unrelated quest leads with only vague clues as to how to go about solving them, then interlaces npcs and events that come looking for you rather thn sitting in a room waiting forever for you to talk to them and do what they say.
One of my most memorable moments from Daggerfall: travelling through the capital late at night, listening to the occasional moans of the ghost crying out in the distance for revenge...then suddenly I hear an arrow fly past my head and audibly thwak against the building behind me. Because apparently I was seen while completing some randomly generated quest that was supposed to be done covertly, and so they sent a team of assassins after me.
Morrowind was great, but Daggerfall had a lot of subtlety that Morrowind lacked.
Post by: Nega on August 07, 2012, 02:51:52 pm
Post by: cameron on August 07, 2012, 03:41:32 pm
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 04:00:05 pm
@towerdude, this time you didn't even bother. Just one ad-hom after another after ignoring my post. So I'm not going to bother anymore either.
I have gave you detailed answer why I judge RPG environments differently than you, I even made a simple, but effective image to illustrate this. I have respected your opinion (the part when you talked about the games and not about personal issues with me) as a different argument that enrich the discussion, even if I don't agree with it.
Let's repeat myself (this goes to forsaken1111 too), even if there is a minimal limit in game design to NPC numbers, and territorial size, Morrowind stand up to that challange with quality. And by quality I mean gameplay, if I can play in a world that only contain 3000 NPCs, but during play I entirely forgot to think or grumble about this fact, then the developers made a good job to counterweight this fact, to such extent to not break immersion (your role play, what every RPG is really about, or should be).
However when I walk on space station what supposed to spread over half of the planet, and I can only visit 15 areas, than it is more lame than having a space station what size (in the lore or the videos) actually reflect these 15 areas (an exterior that support these).
Supposed size:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Actual size: (I moved the part togeather so it wouldn't be that large, in game however they are supposed to be more distant from each other)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You could say the designers did this to make a larger city, while actually not making it large, but what is the point of that, other than some false sense of grandioze? I know from Morrowind that they doesn't wanted to be larger than it is, but it actually manages to be, with quality content. Also Earth's population grew exponentially, that means one time our world had only a few million inhabitants, I can simply imagine the TES worlds with not that much population density. In a world where there are only a few people, an empire can consist of a few thousands of people.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 07, 2012, 04:02:30 pm
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 04:16:10 pm
The point is to make it fit the game's lore. The Imperial City in oblivion is supposed to be a massive place with thousands of people living there, the heart of the Empire and the seat of its power. Instead it was a handful of houses and a temple. It makes no sense, but it was done due to hardware limitations.
It doesn't need to be THAT massive, enough if it's larger than the other cities. Bruma could fit three ties in it. I never said it's design is good, they could have made with the same amount of materials, and NPCs a city that is more worthy of the empire. But I never looked at it, as if it would have too few stuff in it.
Post by: towerdude on August 07, 2012, 04:29:31 pm
Daggerfall vs Morrowind
I've played both Daggerafll and Morrowind. Both had similar strengths and weaknesses. Large worlds, interestign game mechanics, highly customizeble characters and magic/enchantment systems, lots of interesting sidequests that could easily keep a player entertained for weeks...and awful main quests that weren't nearly as fun as the rest of the game.
Daggerfall's main quest was arguably better written than Morrowind's. I don't recall ever staring at the screen in shock at how stupid it was. I did occassionally do that while playing Morrowind. But Morrowind's main plot was far more interesting overall, however head-on-desk-banging stupid it was at some points.
Morrowind suffered from a slight lack of replayability compred to Daggerfall. Daggerfall had a lot of dynamically generated content. And some of that content was comparable in complexity to some of Morrowind's guild questlines, and with less railroading. Daggerfall's quest had far more flexlibilty in how they were completed, and with multiple possible endings. But, Daggerfall's dynamic content while sometimes very good, was sometimes irrelevant for how similar things were. Some of the random-joe-nobody-in-a-tavern questgivers spawned quests that were far more interesting than some of the guild quests, some of which were notoriously bad. Mage guild kill quests, for example, were amongst the most tedious affairs in the history of gaming.
...which brings us to Daggerfall's dungeons. Daggerfall had dungeons bigger than most games. Completely and entirely literally...you could go to a random crypt of no consequences in the middle of nowhere, and sometimes it would be a 4-hour long affair. And not because of combat, but because the things were so huge. Individual Daggerfall dungeons were like 3-4 levels of Descent combined. Morrowind dungeons were generally entirely liner affairs. Go in one end, maybe make one or two redundant choices, possibly follow a circle, then reach the end turn around and go back. Daggerfall dungeons were labyrinthine extremely three dimensional mazes, and some individual dungeons (Castle Necromoghan comes to mind) were quite possibly bigger than every dungeon in the entirety of Morrowind combined.
Impressive. But...honestly Daggerfall's dungeons went beyond what could possibly be considered fun. They were too much. And their 3d layout was so honeycombed and complicated that sometimes even something s simple as navigating an inch up on the map visualizer involved several minutes of zooming and rotating to find a path.
Daggerfall also failed in its world map. Yes, it was notoriously big, possibly the largest computer generated game world ever made, without thousands of cities and dungeons and an overland map that would probably takes days or weeks of real time to traverse. In fact, it was so big that most players didn't even realize it was possible to travel from one town to another without automated fast travel. But...there wasn't really much reason to because it was all the same. And there wasn't much reason to visit any of those thousands of cities and dungeons because they were also all the same. And with the way quests were dynamically created, there wasn't really much reason to go anywhere at all. You could easily pick one city with each of the various guilds you cared about and spawn random quests all day long and never have to leave. In fact, as large as many cities were, that was kind of the only reasonable way to play. A medium-sized town in Daggerfall might have several hundred buildings, and spaced out enough that even with magically enchanted speed and flying it could take a couple minutes to travel from one end to another. Larger towns tended to take so long just to get from point A to point B that it was unpleasant. The capital in Daggerfall was big enough that flying from one end to another was a feat of similar magnitude as flying the entire overland gameworld in Morrowind. And it probably had more individual buildings than the whole of Morrowind, too. That's...one city.
Daggerfall did some things very much better than Morrowind: Daggerfall's character paper doll was better. It was pretty much a playfkiss doll game. Hundreds of different possible outfits with lots of cosmetic accessories. Morrowind did this as well, but Daggerfall's was better. Even individual shirts had multiple graphics sets so you could wear a shirt tucked in or loose. Daggerfall's quest generation was better than Morrowind's entirely static quest set. Daggerfall's spell and enchantment system was (debateable, but probably) a bit better too. But other things Morrowind did better. Alchemy in Morrowind was vastly better than the potion maker system in Daggerfall. Morrowind was prettier. Morrowind's world was more well fleshed out and full. Morrowind's dialogue system was much better. And some things they did about the same. Both had lots of ingame books to read. Both had optional quests that could keep one entertained for days or weeks.
Overall I'd say Daggerfall was bigger, more complicated in some ways, and vastly more ambitious. But Morrowind, while smaller, was more well refined. Morrowind was lacking in some ways, a bit simple at times, but overall it gave a better presentation, it was more "fun" and the world more memorable.
Finally, no discussion of Daggerfall would be complete without mentioning it's largest and most complete failling: It was broken. The game was so bug ridden that it was difficult to play to the end without running into some fatal problem that was irrecoverably destroy your savefile. To have any chance of playing you had to make regular backups, or at least cycle through the available saveslots. And sometimes even if you did you'd end up having to revert back hours of gameplay because irrecoverable crashes weren't immediately obvious. Daggerfall also had issues that would render the game unbeatable even without visibly breaking. The most obvious being that if you didn't meet one particular meeting deadline in the early game, it would become impossible to engage the main questline. It would be like in Morrowind, if you didn't report to Caius Cosades in Balmora within the first half hour of play...both he and all other relevant main quest npcs would vanish and it would be impossible to beat the game. And you wouldn't even know it.
Ultimately, I want to like Daggerfall more. It was a multi-level stone castle with a dungeon, moat and flying guards at a time when most other games were tents. But as impressive as it was, it was also unfinished. Tough to live in a castle when it's missing floors and chunks of loosely masonry occasionally fall from the ceiling on your head. Morrowind only seems small and simple in comparison to Daggerfall. It's still more open and more well developed than most other games of its genre. And it has enough refinements and improvements while retaining enough of the spirit of Daggerfall that regardless of the smaller scope, the fact is that Morrowind is more playable and more fun than Daggerfall. Morrowind was good. Daggerfall can best be summarized with "So, awesome! If only..."
So, Morrowind gets my vote.
Mostly that was the way I felt about it, but sometimes, I couldn't help it, but saw the world of Daggerfall as a bit empty, despite its wasteness. In my first post of this thread, I have summed up the good parts of one game, what another lacks, there are even a few parts in Arena which we could use today. This all time wish list is not even though, since some games have more standing qualities than the others.
My would drew the leading line between Morrowind and Daggerfall. On quality the former, on complexity the latter (I am not just referring to its hugeness, but subtleties like your assassin story), lastly spiced with good ideas from the other 3 games.
Post by: Toady One on August 07, 2012, 11:50:07 pm