Bay 12 Games Forum
Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Neonivek on September 07, 2012, 03:42:34 pm
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Hello and welcome, the goal here is to come up with ideas for how to make the Arch Liberal gameplay more difficult for the player.
The Theory I've always thrown around is that the game is supposed to run on a parabola where Moderate is the easiest and where Arch Conservative is very difficult because everything is so hellish... yet Arch Liberal is so difficult because everything is perfect and have the means to deal with you (afterall the idea is that the Liberal way of doing things is best).
I should state that these are mostly pulling ideas we came up with from other sections of this.
Sieges:
-Police Negotiator: Obviously in the Liberal world their goal is not to kill you and so their highly trained Police Negotiators will start speaking to you during a siege. Being hit with this will drain 100 juice and those who do not have the juice to spend will immediately surrender. These can be done from the entrance. They drop Megaphones which are similar to the Guitar but use Persuasion.
Prison
-Liberal Prisons focus almost exclusively on rehabilitation. Thus every day a member is in prison he has a chance of leaving the crime squad adjusted by their heart and juice. You can break them out but they need to be re-recruited so to speak.
CCS
-The CCS could be a lot more sneaky and more akin to the LCS when they started out. They should lack a headquarters and rely on a fully functional council (similar to how a buisness is run). While they won't attack the LCS dirrectly anymore, as you have the advantage. Their actions should dirrectly impeed you without dirrectly opposing. For example they could plant members in key locations you show up in and call the police on you, they could send sleeper Lawyers after you in court, They could plant car bombs in the random cars you can steal.
That is all for now. What do you think? Do you have anything to add?
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I like it, all of them, I like them a lot. But its elite liberal, not arch-liberal.
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I always saw it as arch conservative being harder moreso for non-violent methods, and elite-liberal beign hard for violent techniques. Nothing says you can't just be liberal activists and such nonsense., while the arch-conservative methods prevent you from free-speech, and get you beaten and kill'd where the violent ones get guns galore and conservatives to shoot.
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send sleeper Lawyers after you in court
I find Judges, or Jury's more fitting here.
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I always saw it as arch conservative being harder moreso for non-violent methods, and elite-liberal beign hard for violent techniques. Nothing says you can't just be liberal activists and such nonsense., while the arch-conservative methods prevent you from free-speech, and get you beaten and kill'd where the violent ones get guns galore and conservatives to shoot.
Neither is really the case.
Arch-Conservatives have squads of heavily armed stormtroopers and arn't above the use of excessive force prefering to shoot first and asking questions later.
While Elite Liberals are trained in the dogma of peaceful resolution and psychology easily demoralising any attacking force or disabling it. While they are not as gun-toting they are much more intelligent in their approach as well.
Honestly going non-violent in Conservative apocolips is still easier then violent. While I could entirely see Elite Liberals being even tougher going the non-violent route (afterall, how well can a lawyer do in a "fixed" legal system where the evidence wins the case? How many sleepers will go back to sleep? and if the Liberal system knows the criminal mind much better then the Conservatives then they obviously know exactly how to combat you as well) plus non-violent actions of Liberalism would mean less as well.
I understand though what you mean. Parabolic arc where you switch strategies to win because you essentially need both. I just think both Arch Conservatives and Elite Liberals should give you a run for your money for both strategies, just in their own way.
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I thought of this in another thread which is mainly Liberal and Conservative unique weapons... however I only got one for the Conservatives
The Orwel42: It appears as a ordinary gun but it fires flaming bullets. While it is a rather good weapon in Liberal hands, it is meant to give powerful burning wounds that eat your liberals alive long after it had struck.
also I appologise for the name.
Ohh I know!
The O-82
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that seems overpowered and unrealistic .
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that seems overpowered and unrealistic .
It's more or less realistic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_ammunition)
As for overpowered, I don't know. I've never been good at balancing things.
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Well the trick is giving the Death Squads an advantage without simply giving the Liberals a new toy to allow them to mow everything down even better then before.
I imagined it as a weapon made to be more advantageous for the enemies then for you simply by how the mechanics work. (Similar to some games. Where some moves are based off of causing long term damage FAR after the battle is over... but are useless for you because you will either kill your enemy or be killed yourself)
That and flaming bullets just... seemed to fit the theme.
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When you put it that way, it does sound like it would fit. I'm in favor of toughing up the opposition for when the game starts seeming too easy for your godly armada.
Furthermore, you could make the incendiary rounds hard to obtain due to a highly illegal status due to being considered inhumane. Conservatives would use it because they don't care about such petty things as "humane" or "inhumane".
That'd be pretty interesting...
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When you put it that way, it does sound like it would fit. I'm in favor of toughing up the opposition for when the game starts seeming too easy for your godly armada.
Furthermore, you could make the incendiary rounds hard to obtain due to a highly illegal status due to being considered inhumane. Conservatives would use it because they don't care about such petty things as "humane" or "inhumane".
That'd be pretty interesting...
Army should bring M249's with their raids and thet would be enough .
also rocket launchers .
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I don't remember who here invented it, but having use of illegal guns turn public opinion on guns towards conservative is a brilliant idea. "If guns are illegal, then only criminals will have them!"
Liberal freedom of speech would also mean the same freedom of speech for the conservatives. While your civil disobedience would go down on effectiveness, conservatives spreading pamphlets about homosexual rape and failures of female managers would not only become more efficient, but protected by law. Towards the end, YOU'd be the one suppressing ideas, because the society has become too idealistic to stop even the wrongdoers.
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Remember also RenoFox that we cannot pervert the Liberal world. Ordinary evil doers would have long since packed up simply because, while certainly the liberals cannot dirrectly stop them, because the teachings and practices of Arch-Liberalism is close to perfection.
The ones passing out those pamphlets would likely be the CCS.
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The ones passing out those pamphlets would likely be the CCS.
Ah yes, that's what I meant. Oppressing freedom of speech from civilians would be just wrong, but CCS is an extremist organization that they are already antagonized. If they're still spreading lies despite good education, they are so troughoutly dedicated to evil that they are beyond saving.
However, I admit that this might be muddying the issue too much to fit the spirit of the game.
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Well what I meant was that I was hoping you weren't refering to ordinary conservatives on the street.
Yeah the larger issue with dealing with the CCS is that for once they are entirely protected by the law without heaping piles of bribary needing to be involved.
Unless of course the CCS also commit crimes, but I always figured when they are pushed back to such an extent that the laws are Elite-Liberal that they will start to be subversive. While in Arch-Conservative they can be as loud and insane as they want.
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Some ideas:
The streets are filled with more conservative semi-thugs, since only the most vile criminals are still imprisoned anymore.
The CCS grows rapidly as a reactionary movement.
General political persuasion becomes less effective at catching the conservative remnant, as most people are irritated by the "preaching to the choir".
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Alright, I'll try to compile some of these ideas together, and add mine as well.
Conservative Crime Squad
The CCS should be changed to first emerge in a mirror image to that of the LCS, when the following conditions are all met:
-Public Opinion 60% or higher Liberal.
-Elite Liberal President
-Near-Liberal Majority on the Supreme Court
-Liberal or Elite Liberal House and Senate
-Issues have become 10% Elite Liberal, 40% Liberal, or 75% Moderate
The CCS should have their ability to effect public opinion supercharged to equal that of the LCS. This makes the CCS a legitimate threat to a liberal public opinion, for as we all know the works of the LCS can make a Nightmare Mode population over 90% Elite Liberal in a couple of months.
The CCS will attract Rogues to their cause. Rogues are members of organizations that have suffered or been eliminated due to the fulfillment of the Liberal Agenda: Rogue Death Squad Members, Rogue Police Gang Units, Rogue Agents, Rogue Firemen, and the like.
Disillusionment
As the country comes closer to Liberalization, some of your liberals might begin to have....doubts about the validity of the LCS in a world so close to their ideal. The conditions for winning the game should be taken, and the percentage of those you have fulfilled applied to a Public Juice Count. At the game's start, the Public Juice Count will be in the negatives and not affect any Liberals but those who also maintain negative juice. However, once the percentage to completion raises, so will the Juice Count. When it reaches positive numbers, any Liberals who have a juice count lesser than it will occasionally approach their direct superior and point out one of the LCS's immoral actions (Using guns, killing people, rampages, "enlightenment", publishing someone's private information, flooding the city bay with nuclear waste even after nuclear power is banned, obstructing the justice system, etc). These are only "unlocked" if you've ever actually committed them, giving bonuses to things such as pacifist runs, as the LCS is more in-line with its worldview. For example:
You've told us all that we're working to eliminate guns from society and make people safe, but we shoot people to prove our point! How is this ever supposed to work!?
Success: Look, sometimes we have to make compromises for the greater good. The conservatives will shoot at us even if we don't shoot back, and if we die this has all been for nothing.
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Failure: Don't rock the boat, man. Just do as you're told.
Success: (Doubting Liberal) is satisfied for now.
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Failure: (Doubting Liberal) walks out of the safehouse in disgust
If it succeeds, the Liberal's juice is raised to the Public Juice Count's current location. If it fails, they abandon the LCS. However, the larger the disparity between the liberal's juice and the public's juice, the harder it is to convince them. At the end of the game, the Public Juice Count will be 700 Juice. This also applies to sleepers, so that would assist in making them less powerful. Finally, it can also effect the current leader of the LCS should they not have a high enough juice count, but without a superior what happens to them is different. The leader, filled with doubts, goes off on their own to soul search. The leader is transported to a random site. If the leader can commit a Liberal Action while on the site, their crisis is resolved and their juice is raised to the correct level. If they cannot, they abandon the LCS and the same events occur that do when a leader dies.
Re-education/Rehabilitation
It wouldn't be one of my LCS suggestion posts without.....a New Issue!
Prisoner Rights
C+: Prisoners have no rights whatsoever, subject to constant conservative brainwashing and abuse. (Effect: Prison is a Re-education Camp that functions the same as the one that exists now, with the addition of a check for damage every month to the already existing Juice check. Liberals who suffer too many checks in succession and don't have First Aid skill may die.)
C: Prisoners are regularly deprived of human rights and used as cheap labor for industry. (Effect: Prison is a Prison Factory that has a lesser drain on your Liberal's Heart and Juice than the Re-Education Camp. A less likely to succeed damage check is also in place.)
M: Prisoners have some guaranteed rights, but are generally not encouraged to change themselves. (Effect: Prison is Prison. Just prison, exactly like the one we have in the game now.)
L: Prisoners have the same rights as anyone else, but rehabilitory programs are limited in scope. (Effect: Prison is a Progressivist Prison. Liberals suffer a juice loss check each month equal to the Re-education Camp's.....except instead of being resisted by high Heart, it's resisted by high Wisdom. If your Liberal's juice reaches zero, they abandon the LCS. So yeah, that'll be a problem for you.)
L+: Prisoners are given comprehensive therapy and education during their term, allowing rehabilitation into happy and peaceful citizens. (Effect: Prison is a Rehabilitation Center that has a Wisdom-resisted Juice check that subtracts 300 Juice if failed. If it reaches zero Juice, the Liberal leaves the LCS.)
This makes prison a heavy threat to the LCS in Liberal law.
Health Care
C+: Only the top income bracket can afford health care, and medicine is restricted to those who can pay for it by law. (Effect: University Hospital is extremely expensive, around 10000$ per patient, but has a 100% heal rate. The Free Clinic is a Suicide Clinic, and the only reason Liberals can be sent there is to die.)
C: Health care is very expensive and virtually no compassion exists on the subject. (Effect: University Hospital is expensive, about 5000$ per patient, and has a 90% treatment rate. The Free Clinic is overcrowded by those who cannot afford real health care, and only has a 20% chance of providing treatment. If the liberal's injuries are immediately life threatening and this roll is failed, they die.
M: Most people cannot afford professional health care, and government programs on the subject are lacking. (Effect: University Hospital costs 1000$ per patient and has an 80% heal rate. The Free Clinic has a 30% heal rate.
L: Extensive government health care programs ensure that the vast majority of people can get treatment. (Effect: University Hospital costs 100$ per patient and has a 70% heal rate. The Free Clinic has a 40% heal rate.)
L+: Health care has been nationalized, and all people are guaranteed free treatment. (Effect: Nationalized Hospital is free and has a 50% heal rate. The Free Clinic and University Hospital no longer exist.)
Having recently read the excellent dystopian novel The Handmaid's Tale by Margret Atwood, concerning the destruction of the United States Government and its replacement with the theocratic dictatorship known as the Republic of Gilead, I feel compelled to offer some related suggestions for LCS.
In the novel, individuals who are found committing homosexual or unmanly/unwomanly acts are considered "Gender Traitors", and are executed. I think that this kind of crazy is exactly the sort of thing that could be added to the Conservative Nightmare.
A liberal would be charged with Gender Treason under circumstances relating to whether or not Gay Rights and Women's Rights are Arch-Conservative. Would, like everything else, be punished by death under Arch-Conservative Death Penalty. The addition of this would make surviving the Nightmare all the more difficult, in addition to reducing the effectiveness of Seduction (Grimith...).
Under Arch-Conservative Women's Rights
-If a Liberal wears a dress as a male or a suit as a female. (Fixing the Liberal's gender label would offset this, as it would change how they present themselves regardless of their actual gender.)
-If a Liberal has fixed their gender label to Ambiguous and has gone out in public.
Under Arch-Conservative Gay Rights
-If a Liberal attempts to seduce an individual of the same gender and fails (or is observed succeeding by someone else), with the chance of this being reported being different for Important Conservatives (100%), Conservatives (85%), Moderates (60%), Liberals (20%), and Important Liberals (5%).
-If a Liberal is in the midst of seduction, but the Conservative Sleeper Scum were feeding information to the cops the whole time!
There was also once a suggestion to have using spraypaint at Pollution L+ be a crime, Attempted Planet Murder/Earth Murder/Terracide.
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Why are they still making Poluting Sprey cans in a L+ world? They should be organic paint that is not only safe to eat but tastes like cherry.
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This is a pretty awesome, and I really would like to see it put in.
What about something like in Arch-Conservative times sleepers would be way easier to bust, and in turn Conservative sleepers can infiltrate you. I suppose it would have to be in some sort of way that wouldn't be noticable unless you were really looking for proof of there being a sleeper, and even then if you kill or kick them out the other liberals with you at the safehouse might lose some juice from your highly unliberal choice.
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On the same hand though I have to think about the Liberal unique weapons as well.
Elite Liberals believe in the absense of firearms even in the hands of the police and as such they are all the better for it. Remember the game isn't exactly ironic about it the lack of weapons actually improves Liberal Police and doesn't hinder them.
Along with liberal police negotiators who use megaphones from afar...
I am thinking of possibly non-lethal weaponry. Since I am fuzzy on what exactly would be good or not here are my ideas.
1) Foam Gun: A rifle that shoots foam when it strikes it "Disables" a Liberal (Liberals not part of the squad are outright disabled) this means they either lose the ability to walk, shoot, or remaid conscious. It deals no wounds and any liberal that escapes is fine.
2) Knockout Gas: Due to their work on non-lethal weaponry they have perfected knockout gas. Similar to fire based weapons it fills an area with a gas that knocks liberals out.
3) Combat Hand-Cuffs: A fast melee weapon that when it hits the enemy is makes them lose use of their arms
4) Hugs: A negotiation technique
5) Tranq-Guns
6) The Liberaliser: A Electroplasmic gun that fires an energy bolt that causes signals from the brain to go haywire causing paralysis.
*shrugs* you can tell why I have trouble.
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Non-lethal (Or less lethal) weaponry has kind of had its reputation ruined by being used to suppress protests and the like. Police negotiators fit the Elite Liberal Utopia of the endgame, but "foam gun" reminds me of those beanbag-shooting shotguns (which would basically just be a blunt weapon using the gun skill), and tranquiliser guns and knockout gas bring to mind some Kafkaesque nightmare society where disrespecting rules means that you just wake up from your bed, not remembering how you got there, over and over again until you learn your lesson.
If riots are ever implemented, though, I'd totally like to see riot policemen with tear gas and fire hoses and giant car-mounted microwave cannons. (Except on C+, where they just shoot the rioters.)
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Hmmm that is a very good point Soadreqm
I am not sure if that would go against non-lethal weaponry even existing in L+ world... or if it is part of the "Things wouldn't go that well" sort of heavenlyness of it.
Dang.
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Ok I think I have come up with another one that isn't weapon related.
What if the chances to recruit someone was also related to how liberal versus Conservative the world is.
In a Arch-Liberal Paradise you would have to be insane to join the LCS. So gaining new members, outside seduction, becomes more difficult and outright impossible for the less persuasive members.
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Ok I think I have come up with another one that isn't weapon related.
What if the chances to recruit someone was also related to how liberal versus Conservative the world is.
In a Arch-Liberal Paradise you would have to be insane to join the LCS. So gaining new members, outside seduction, becomes more difficult and outright impossible for the less persuasive members.
That already exists, to an extent. When you try to talk to someone about politics, if the issue that is talked about is already at L+, you can fail to convince them.
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Dang it!