PTWwWhy don't ya join? :-\
And a bump!This will get filled soon enough.
I'm totally getting In on this.
This will be my first game ... I'm absolutely terrified. :'(
I'm totally getting In on this.
This will be my first game ... I'm absolutely terrified. :'(
Btw that was my only and last edit in this thread. Since i know that it's not allowed during the gameplay.[goldstar.jpg]
Btw that was my only and last edit in this thread. Since i know that it's not allowed during the gameplay.(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/gold-star-smiley.gif)
Say In, brother.NOOOOOOOOO.
For me, out. :P
Game will start around 4 pm today.Take a shot. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=101298.msg3017163#msg3017163)
Game will start around 4 pm today.Take a shot. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=101298.msg3017163#msg3017163)
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/gold-star-smiley.gif)4:30 from now, assuming his local time is correct as it's different than the default forum time.Game will start around 4 pm today.Take a shot. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=101298.msg3017163#msg3017163)
Time to put on my SHERIUSS MAPHYA FAEC and ask some first day questions!
Nerjin
If someone said that they were the cop, would you trust them? If you were the doctor, would you protect them for the night? Why?
-snip-
Jim Groovester: If you were scum, who would be on your list of priorities to kill?
Nabic: If you had a 1shot Vigilante, how would you choose how to use it?Hold onto it until I find someone suspicious. I'll use it once I'm fairly sure they're scum. No point in wasting a one-shot just to hit town.
Nabic, let's say it's late in Day 1. The person about to be lynched is somebody you think is town, while your target is only a few votes away from being in the lead. Do you extend and try to change people's minds or do you wait and see what happens?Extend the day and change others' minds. After all, the purpose of the day is to find and lynch scum. Killing townies doesn't help the my side. However, if the day already was extended, getting another extend could wear everyone out, especially because we're all new players. I might instead let the lynch go through and suggest a any cops investigate my target.
xny, this is your first time playing but you obviously already know what to do to begin. What's the extent of your exposure to mafia, and in particular, Bay12 Mafia?
xny: If you could be Cop or Doctor, which would you use?
Nabic, let's say it's late in Day 1. The person about to be lynched is somebody you think is town, while your target is only a few votes away from being in the lead. Do you extend and try to change people's minds or do you wait and see what happens?Extend the day and change others' minds. After all, the purpose of the day is to find and lynch scum. Killing townies doesn't help the my side. However, if the day already was extended, getting another extend could wear everyone out, especially because we're all new players. I might instead let the lynch go through and suggest a any cops investigate my target.
Time to put on my SHERIUSS MAPHYA FAEC and ask some first day questions!The answer is: Depends on the context. If they've seemed honest and upfront so far I would but if they seemed even slightly suspicious I would probably not trust them. Furthermore I would protect them henging upon whether I believed the claim or not. The reason being they could easily just be fake-claiming.
Nerjin
If someone said that they were the cop, would you trust them? If you were the doctor, would you protect them for the night? Why?
-snip-
@Shoes: The other dude. Mafia do not like to attract attention to themselves.
-snip-Time to put on my SHERIUSS MAPHYA FAEC and ask some first day questions!The answer is: Depends on the context. If they've seemed honest and upfront so far I would but if they seemed even slightly suspicious I would probably not trust them. Furthermore I would protect them henging upon whether I believed the claim or not. The reason being they could easily just be fake-claiming.
Nerjin
If someone said that they were the cop, would you trust them? If you were the doctor, would you protect them for the night? Why?
-snip-
What makes you believe or disbelieve a claim?
-snip-
@xny If you were mafia godfather would you invite the cop to analyze you to prove your "innocence"?
ShoesandHats, suppose you're the cop. On the first night, do you investigate an IC, or a suspicious player?
ShoesandHats, suppose you're the cop. On the first night, do you investigate an IC, or a suspicious player?
The suspicious one. Even if it's possible that the IC is using his prior mafia experience to appear town, I'd rather base any actions I have off of actual evidence.
ShoesandHats, suppose you're the cop. On the first night, do you investigate an IC, or a suspicious player?
The suspicious one. Even if it's possible that the IC is using his prior mafia experience to appear town, I'd rather base any actions I have off of actual evidence.
How do you decide whether or not someone appears town?
-snip-
Nerjin, If you were scum, and your head was on the chopping block, would you out your partner to save yourself?
-snip-
Do you feel killing a town wears people out less than an extension? If people would not believe your lynch target, why should they believe your cop target?The few times I've played mafia have been mainly irl. Especially on first day, there's not much point dragging it on forever. On day one, it's pretty difficult to be certain of mafia. Multiple extensions and the attention they require should be used later in the game when we have more information.
@Nabic: If you were mafia who would be your first kill? An experienced player who is likely to find you later on, an inexperienced player who seems adamant on voting you for every day, or some other player type?If I were mafia, I'd try to kill the cop first, and then the player attacking me. If I did it the other way around, the cop might decide to check me, achieving the opposite of the intended effect. Mafia want as little attention as possible. Killing the adamant player before an experienced player would lower attention focused on me.
ShoesandHats, you've posted twice just to answer questions but haven't voted for anyone. Defensiveness is a scumtell. Why aren't you voting? You played in a previous BM so there's no excuse to forget about RVS.
ShoesandHats, you've posted twice just to answer questions but haven't voted for anyone. Defensiveness is a scumtell. Why aren't you voting? You played in a previous BM so there's no excuse to forget about RVS.
I don't need to vote immediately. I'm trying to figure things out. Even on the first day, you can at least come up with some reason as to why you're voting for someone. What's the problem with answering questions? Sure, I would probably do well to ask some more questions myself, but I don't see what the problem is.
xny, How many other mafia games have you read before you entered this one? How much time have you spent on the wiki?
Do you feel killing a town wears people out less than an extension? If people would not believe your lynch target, why should they believe your cop target?The few times I've played mafia have been mainly irl. Especially on first day, there's not much point dragging it on forever. On day one, it's pretty difficult to be certain of mafia. Multiple extensions and the attention they require should be used later in the game when we have more information.
In Jim Groovester's example, my target only needed a few votes to lynch, so others must have agreed with me. That person would be the next scummiest (next most scummy?) person. It would make sense for cop to inspect him/her.
xny, How many other mafia games have you read before you entered this one? How much time have you spent on the wiki?
Nerjin, If you were scum, and your head was on the chopping block, would you out your partner to save yourself?
ShakeRag, Is there ever a reason to falsely claim to be the cop? What could you gain by doing so?
xny, How many other mafia games have you read before you entered this one? How much time have you spent on the wiki?
Nerjin, If you were scum, and your head was on the chopping block, would you out your partner to save yourself?
ShakeRag, Is there ever a reason to falsely claim to be the cop? What could you gain by doing so?
For a bit of a stranger question, Ford, what do you hope to gain from these three questions?
ShoesandHats, you've posted twice just to answer questions but haven't voted for anyone. Defensiveness is a scumtell. Why aren't you voting? You played in a previous BM so there's no excuse to forget about RVS.
I don't need to vote immediately. I'm trying to figure things out. Even on the first day, you can at least come up with some reason as to why you're voting for someone. What's the problem with answering questions? Sure, I would probably do well to ask some more questions myself, but I don't see what the problem is.
@Jim Groovester: Two questions. 1) Do you have that speech saved somewhere and just copy/paste? 2) On the third day someone who has been showing mafia signs is night-killed. No one else has been showing yet. What do you do?
No. That would only get me killed and them get them killed the next day. I would "out" someone who wasn't scum at all. That way they'd lynch a townie the next day.
Remember that, the more info the town gets, the more info scum get as well.
Remember that, the more info the town gets, the more info scum get as well.
What information besides who the cop and doctor are is worth withholding so that the scum don't get it?
Do you feel it's more painful for town when the cop or the doctor is roleblocked? Why?Obviously, it is. But it's just a minor setback if town manages to track down scum.
@Mr.Zero: ERRR WRONG, 1112. Anyway, that has happened twice now. I'll try harder with a stronger case at the start. And trust me, it will happen in this mafia. And I'll be innocent again.
Shakerag, if you are the mafia role blocker, would you block a suspected doctor or suspected cop?Block the doctor and have my scumbuddy kill the cop.
ShakeRag, Is there ever a reason to falsely claim to be the cop? What could you gain by doing so?Oh, there are lots of reasons. Most of them terrible, especially if you're town. Fakeclaiming as town is generally very discouraged, and tends to only work in specific situations, if you're very skilled, and likely both. As scum, however, a typical time to fakeclaim cop is if the real cop claims and has an inspect on you/your scumbuddy. This typically only happens in LYLO, as when the real cop dies, your fakeclaim is now a big flashing "lynch me" sign.
I don't need to vote immediately. I'm trying to figure things out. Even on the first day, you can at least come up with some reason as to why you're voting for someone. What's the problem with answering questions? Sure, I would probably do well to ask some more questions myself, but I don't see what the problem is.[Welcome back. I hope you fare better than your last attempt. On the first day, especially during the RVS phase, your "reason" for voting someone is what that 'R' stands for in the acronym, yes?]
No, I don't copy/paste it. I think about what I want to say at the beginning of every BM, and then write it all down. It turns out that I end up writing the exact same thing every single game, so I have to add the addendum at the end that people might have seen it before.Doh ho ho ho.
I have a feeling that due to the timezone difference it will be quite annoying to discuss :/[Just don't wait for someone to reply to you before continuing and it'll be fine. Maintain multiple avenues of questioning/attack. Just sitting and waiting for someone to reply is lurkish, and you will get called for it.]
| Nerjin: | Captain Ford |
| ShoesandHats: | Nabic |
| Kingfisher1112: | |
| Captain Ford: | |
| Mr.Zero: | xny |
| Nabic: | Jim Groovester |
| xny: | Shakerag |
| Jim Groovester: | |
| Shakerag: |
xny: You're scum, and your lynch target is ahead in votes. One of the other players voting for the same person has had his vote there since RVS with terrible reasons, and he has been lurking heavily. Do you say anything about it or let the lynch go through?Call it out. The heavy lurk seems to be common reasons for a lynch, so when it goes wrong, I doubt there would be too much blame on myself and more on the lurking town. However, if the person currently being lynched acted even more scummy, I would probably let it go until the next day to prevent a sort of defensive look.
@Mr.Zero: ERRR WRONG, 1112. Anyway, that has happened twice now. I'll try harder with a stronger case at the start. And trust me, it will happen in this mafia. And I'll be innocent again.What makes you think it will happen again? Are you not confident in yourself?
@Shoes: The other dude. Mafia do not like to attract attention to themselves.
Is this a solid rule? Do you think they ever should attract attention?
QuoteDo you feel it's more painful for town when the cop or the doctor is roleblocked? Why?Obviously, it is. But it's just a minor setback if town manages to track down scum.
@Jim Groovester [May I call you Jim?]
The reason they would believe it is that hot-heads prevail. People are lazy creatures. Even if they manage to avoid the trap it would always be in the backround of their mind whispering its siren's song.
The reason they would believe it is that hot-heads prevail. People are lazy creatures. Even if they manage to avoid the trap it would always be in the backround of their mind whispering its siren's song.
Remember that, the more info the town gets, the more info scum get as well.
What information besides who the cop and doctor are is worth withholding so that the scum don't get it?
Not exactly what I meant. Scum may start to learn how people act, what they may react to, and other such things that aren't exact evidence, but still useful.
Jim: Using the Bisection method, what is a solution accurate to within 10-5 of x - 2-x = 0 for 0 ≤ x ≤ 1?
Remember that, the more info the town gets, the more info scum get as well.
What information besides who the cop and doctor are is worth withholding so that the scum don't get it?
Not exactly what I meant. Scum may start to learn how people act, what they may react to, and other such things that aren't exact evidence, but still useful.
How is that useful to the scum?
Isn't learning how the town plays also beneficial to the town? Why bother preventing this information from getting out?
@xnyMaybe I am misunderstanding you here.. but no, not really. Thinking it through, why would someone decide to out their partner, ever? It's simply Wifom and over with. Do you believe everything you hear without even thinking about it? Do you happen to be thinking by yourself right now?
As a player who wouldn't be expecting it? Yes. I would be inclined to believe a scum "outing" a partner. Especially if they did it convincingly. Granted it turns into a WIFOM if you think of it. Maybe he actually did out his partner but now we're not going to believe it's his partner. Wouldn't you be inclined to believe it though if you weren't expecting it?
Captain Ford: You're a cop on N1. Who do you inspect first: A lurky player, A first-time player that's somewhat scummy, an IC, or a BM veteran that's coming across as "too town" to you?An IC. IC's logically have the most influence over the game, due to their experience and advisory role, and they're either the most valuable as known town, or the most dangerous as mafia. Plus they're hard to get a read on otherwise.
@xny
As a player who wouldn't be expecting it? Yes. I would be inclined to believe a scum "outing" a partner. Especially if they did it convincingly. Granted it turns into a WIFOM if you think of it. Maybe he actually did out his partner but now we're not going to believe it's his partner. Wouldn't you be inclined to believe it though if you weren't expecting it?
Shoesandhats Please define the suspicious player more. Is it the aggressive one? The passive one? The lurker? Maybe the good player?
Nabic Let's say that at some point there are little leads about who the scum is, and you happen to have a role with evidence to back it up. Would you role claim to help out the town even though marking yourself as a NK target?If I my role has a chance of finding scum at night (such as Cop), I wouldn't claim unless I knew there was a doctor to protect me from the imminent NK.
Shakerag: Is a scummy-acting town better off dead?Hmm. In a matter of speaking, yes. The town's power, predominantly, is in the form of the lynch. That is what we use to eliminate the scum. So a town player who is acting very scummy will basically cause the town to waste one usage of that power, and cause the scumteam to be one step closer to victory. Ideally, a town-aligned vigilante will kill off a "scummy townie" during the night, so that that player isn't mislynched the next day. However, in a game lacking town-aligned kills, there's little you can do about a scummy townie. Best bet would be to get an inspect off on them to be sure, and then use that info to find the actual scum.
[It's my personal belief that while we tell newbies to focus on finding one scum at a time and to not try and "figure out" the entire scumteam, I think many players do so anyway. Same deal with trying to analyze who got NKd and why. However, it seems to be my memory that most times I see people calling out the whole scumteam, whether in-game or in deadchat, they're almost always wrong anyway. This is true even for non-beginners.]@Jim Groovester [May I call you Jim?]
The reason they would believe it is that hot-heads prevail. People are lazy creatures. Even if they manage to avoid the trap it would always be in the backround of their mind whispering its siren's song.
Do you feel you also act this way? Does everyone?
Arithmetic is for computers.Fine, I'll ask you for a proof next time. Also, hypothetically, if you were an IC in a beginner's game and a cop, how would you go about picking your inspect targets?
I am reasonably certain that people would believe it if it happened.[I seriously doubt it. As a scum about to be lynched, it wouldn't be of any benefit to your wincon, no matter how you look at it, to "out" your partner. Because ... now the town knows who all the scum are, and could just lynch your buddy the next day. Bam, town win. Conversely, "outing" your actual partner under the thought that no one will think he's actually scum then won't be effective either. Everyone will just discard the information you shared, when you flip scum, as WIFOM.]
[My general rule of thumb is to claim after one scum inspect, or (possibly, somtimes) two town inspects. This can vary as circumstances will, and can vary by the size of the game. Yes, you are an immediate NK target when you claim cop, but the info you give to the rest of the town can win the game for you. If you die without sharing that information ... ]Nabic Let's say that at some point there are little leads about who the scum is, and you happen to have a role with evidence to back it up. Would you role claim to help out the town even though marking yourself as a NK target?If I my role has a chance of finding scum at night (such as Cop), I wouldn't claim unless I knew there was a doctor to protect me from the imminent NK.
Depends on the severity of the mistake. Did he say something that makes him almost entirely like scum? If so, I may start the bandwagon myself. I would not really ever directly support someone, but if it's something more quiet I might not take a stand.Shoesandhats Please define the suspicious player more. Is it the aggressive one? The passive one? The lurker? Maybe the good player?
Any or all of the above. I used suspicious as a general term.
xny
Say that you're scum. Your partner has gotten himself into a bit of trouble by slipping up a bit on a question mid-game. Do you bandwagon him, do you remain passive, or do you support him?
@Shakerag oh jeez, that's a hard one. Uff it's random but i would most probably choose Jim. Cause in the past BM's that I've red, i have noticed that he likes to bully newbies. With that gone he would be less of a threat to town or scum depending on his alignment.You want him to be less of a threat to scum?
you want him to be less of a threat to scum?
@Shakerag oh jeez, that's a hard one. Uff it's random but i would most probably choose Jim. Cause in the past BM's that I've red, i have noticed that he likes to bully newbies. With that gone he would be less of a threat to town or scum depending on his alignment.'
Quoteyou want him to be less of a threat to scum?
I think you haven't red my entire answer, Cause your question doesn't seem to reflect this.Quote@Shakerag oh jeez, that's a hard one. Uff it's random but i would most probably choose Jim. Cause in the past BM's that I've red, i have noticed that he likes to bully newbies. With that gone he would be less of a threat to town or scum depending on his alignment.'
bolded the important part.
Now then
Xny You make very poor attempts at creating good questions, are you even trying to scum hunt?
I don't see how what you bolded changes my point. From what I see, it is as if you are saying "I would get rid of Jim because he puts pressure on town and scum." Is this wrong?
You want to show some examples of bad questions that get me no useful information against scum?Sure why not. But wait... Then we stumble upon something. You yourself didn't ask many questions, You prefer to take the easy way by jumping on questions of others. I'm not saying it's bad, but you haven't been scum hunting yourself. That's the easy way don't you think? But lets continue..
How do you decide whether or not someone appears town?Nabic asked, you jumped on it.
what do you hope to gain from these three questions?Odd question, questioning why he is asking questions? I believe it's to gain knowledge, the thing that spins this game.
Is this a solid rule? Do you think they ever should attract attention?Shoes asks kingfisher, you jump again on the question.
What makes you think it will happen again? Are you not confident in yourself?I ask something to kingfisher, you jump on it again.
ShoesandHats: It's 3p LYLO and you're scum. No powerroles have been revealed yet. You don't feel that you have a terribly good read on how the other two players are going to vote. Do you fakeclaim? If so, cop or doc?
Shoesandhats
So you would define aggressive as suspicious, while it is one of the common town tells? Doesn't that mean that you would probably vote for aggressive townie, while the scum just keep a semi-passive stance just to get rid of the active players while keeping a low profile yourself?
Also the good player. It is widely known that Jim besides being a massive scumbag (Not scum), is a very good player, does that make him more suspicious?
I still find your common definition of suspicious rather vague, please define more.
Jumping on questions of others? I'm jumping on answers of others. I want to know more, so I ask more. Even if it was 'the easy way', I still find it the most informative way. Why should I not do what I think is best?QuoteYou want to show some examples of bad questions that get me no useful information against scum?Sure why not. But wait... Then we stumble upon something. You yourself didn't ask many questions, You prefer to take the easy way by jumping on questions of others. I'm not saying it's bad, but you haven't been scum hunting yourself. That's the easy way don't you think? But lets continue..
to finish it off, I have found a grand total of 2 self-made questions which indicate you searching yourself for scum. Maybe i have missed some, cause of bad underlining.Nobody told me to ask these questions, nobody made me, these are my own questions, working with other answers.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you here.. but no, not really. Thinking it through, why would someone decide to out their partner, ever? It's simply Wifom and over with. Do you believe everything you hear without even thinking about it? Do you happen to be thinking by yourself right now?
There's at least six of my own questions right there. Unless I'm also counting wrong, that's just about how many you have yourself. Not only that, but...@Mr.Zero: ERRR WRONG, 1112. Anyway, that has happened twice now. I'll try harder with a stronger case at the start. And trust me, it will happen in this mafia. And I'll be innocent again.What makes you think it will happen again? Are you not confident in yourself?
Also..@Shoes: The other dude. Mafia do not like to attract attention to themselves.
Is this a solid rule? Do you think they ever should attract attention?QuoteDo you feel it's more painful for town when the cop or the doctor is roleblocked? Why?Obviously, it is. But it's just a minor setback if town manages to track down scum.
Shakerag: Is a scummy-acting town better off dead?@Jim Groovester [May I call you Jim?]
The reason they would believe it is that hot-heads prevail. People are lazy creatures. Even if they manage to avoid the trap it would always be in the backround of their mind whispering its siren's song.
Do you feel you also act this way? Does everyone?
Shoesandhats Please define the suspicious player more. Is it the aggressive one? The passive one? The lurker? Maybe the good player?You had 'no part' in that question, but then you 'jump in' on it yourself, as I've been doing. Are you in the wrong here?
Quotewhat do you hope to gain from these three questions?Odd question, questioning why he is asking questions? I believe it's to gain knowledge, the thing that spins this game.
QuoteI don't see how what you bolded changes my point. From what I see, it is as if you are saying "I would get rid of Jim because he puts pressure on town and scum." Is this wrong?
PArtly, the point is that he has generally a stronger presence than the majority of the players and frankly i have no idea whether he is town or scum. Perhaps this mentality has risen from reading other mafia's, but i could as well call out other players. The problem is that i have no knowledge of anything they have done in the past, while i did read a lot about Jim's actions. Thus my random vote is straying towards Jim cause i have some vague knowledge of him as opposed to random players.
It's not that i hold a grudge against Jim cause i don't, i have no reason to have it cause this is the first time i literally play with him. But isn't it logical (If i indeed did have this role, which i do not have cause it does not exist in the Mafia), that you'd go for the player which you know more about as opposed to a random player which actions may be unknown?
QuoteYou want to show some examples of bad questions that get me no useful information against scum?Sure why not. But wait... Then we stumble upon something. You yourself didn't ask many questions, You prefer to take the easy way by jumping on questions of others. I'm not saying it's bad, but you haven't been scum hunting yourself. That's the easy way don't you think? But lets continue..QuoteHow do you decide whether or not someone appears town?Nabic asked, you jumped on it.Quotewhat do you hope to gain from these three questions?Odd question, questioning why he is asking questions? I believe it's to gain knowledge, the thing that spins this game.QuoteIs this a solid rule? Do you think they ever should attract attention?Shoes asks kingfisher, you jump again on the question.QuoteWhat makes you think it will happen again? Are you not confident in yourself?I ask something to kingfisher, you jump on it again.
Then besides that we got you answering our questions, which is not bad. But it looks but with the question -band wagoning combined. It seems that you are choosing the lazy way, cause why hunt when one can bandwagon other people?
to finish it off, I have found a grand total of 2 self-made questions which indicate you searching yourself for scum. Maybe i have missed some, cause of bad underlining.
... I have found a grand total of 2 self-made questions which indicate you searching yourself for scum. Maybe i have missed some, cause of bad underlining.
| Nerjin: | Captain Ford | |
| ShoesandHats: | Nabic | Shakerag |
| Kingfisher1112: | ||
| Captain Ford: | ||
| Mr.Zero: | xny | Nerjin |
| Nabic: | Jim Groovester | |
| xny: | ||
| Jim Groovester: | ||
| Shakerag: |
zombie urist: [If it isn't too much trouble, can you post who isn't voting with each votecount? It's a handy reference that I like to have.]Ok.
So instead of searching for hints of scumminess in others you will stick with Jim simply because he has presence and you know him? To answer your question: Yes it is more logical. BUT you don't know Jim in this game. You know Jim from the other games. Learn more of others in this game my friend, before you vote Jim from other games. They have little bearing right now.
Read the forum friend. xny has been posting frequently and asking questions applying pressure and all that other good stuff. This isn't a scum-tell. It's not a bad thing to pressure for more information. You also ask why he's asking questions. You are doing the same thing. Maybe you should examine the irony here.
This last part just plain confused me though I'll requote it here [it's from the same post]
What... What do you mean by searching himself for scum? Please explain what you mean by that.yes i agree, i formulated that sentence in a very strange way and that i may have used the wrong words to express what i was thinking. What i've meant is that i feel that he is taking the lazy way, which generally isn't a towny attribute.
I'll respond to the first part of your post when I decipher what it means.What i mean is that, you are questioning the very foundation of this game: namely asking questions.
@NerjinQuoteSo instead of searching for hints of scumminess in others you will stick with Jim simply because he has presence and you know him? To answer your question: Yes it is more logical. BUT you don't know Jim in this game. You know Jim from the other games. Learn more of others in this game my friend, before you vote Jim from other games. They have little bearing right now.
But there is nearly not enough to go on other people, especially on day one. I've red about kingfisher but he nearly always somehow corners himself on the chopping block. The rest of you... is the first time i'm seeing you. By all means im far from a good mafia player so i cannot read anything of all the players, that's why i pick the player that i know SOMETHING about. Even if it's nearly nothing it's something.
P.S: Btw, the bolded part suddenly strikes me, why do you exactly mean by voting? Did i somewhere mention that i would give my lynch vote against Jim?
What i find amusing is that you keep assaulting me with the non-existant hypothetical question with a role that does not exist in here, instead of creating plausible scenario's which in fact will gain you more valuable information.
But now i ask you Who would you chose Nerjin? if you had this role? and why?. Cause you seem very confident that you know very well who you would vote for and why.A kind of confident like you know who scum is, and who isn't.
@NerjinQuoteWhat... What do you mean by searching himself for scum? Please explain what you mean by that.yes i agree, i formulated that sentence in a very strange way and that i may have used the wrong words to express what i was thinking. What i've meant is that i feel that he is taking the lazy way, which generally isn't a towny attribute.
@XnYQuoteI'll respond to the first part of your post when I decipher what it means.What i mean is that, you are questioning the very foundation of this game: namely asking questions.
Why would you ask that? Why would you ask why someone is questioning others?
What i find amusing is that you keep assaulting me with the non-existant hypothetical question with a role that does not exist in here, instead of creating plausible scenario's which in fact will gain you more valuable information.Do you not see how these two statements contradict each other?
But now i ask you Who would you chose Nerjin? if you had this role? and why?. Cause you seem very confident that you know very well who you would vote for and why.A kind of confident like you know who scum is, and who isn't.
@NerjinIt seems that everything you've been saying recently is either completely wrong or just doesn't make sense. Are you thinking about what you're doing here? It seems like you want to be a 'hero' but are simply pulling things out of thin air that simply disappear too soon, and you're certainly running out of air. (I am so so sorry for this terrible comparison, but I feel it gets a point across.)QuoteRead the forum friend. xny has been posting frequently and asking questions applying pressure and all that other good stuff. This isn't a scum-tell. It's not a bad thing to pressure for more information. You also ask why he's asking questions. You are doing the same thing. Maybe you should examine the irony here.
This last part just plain confused me though I'll requote it here [it's from the same post]
Now that i've just reread it, yes it's rather ironic now that i realize it.
@NerjinI don't feel the need to act in a way that town 'generally' acts. As town, I'm fairly confident almost anything I do that I feel is for the best will also be 'generally town'. Do you feel the opposite way with a need to act town?QuoteWhat... What do you mean by searching himself for scum? Please explain what you mean by that.yes i agree, i formulated that sentence in a very strange way and that i may have used the wrong words to express what i was thinking. What i've meant is that i feel that he is taking the lazy way, which generally isn't a towny attribute.
@XnYFirst off, the first part of your post was about Jim, and really I still don't understand much of what you're trying to say there. Also, I was not asking him why he is asking questions, but what he hopes to gain from the questions he asked. To figure out, like you are now, if he is pulling whatever he can to make himself look better.QuoteI'll respond to the first part of your post when I decipher what it means.What i mean is that, you are questioning the very foundation of this game: namely asking questions.
Why would you ask that? Why would you ask why someone is questioning others?
[...] i have noticed that he likes to bully newbies.[Only the ones that bring it on themselves, IMO. My first BM was ... a learning experience.]
If so, I may start the bandwagon myself.[Just a personal peeve here. Bandwagoning is when, IMO, you're voting someone just because everyone else is without any good reasoning of your own. Also when you're trying to encourage other players to vote for your target with sketchy or poor reasoning. Stating someone is "starting a bandwagon" makes me want to wallop the speaker with a rolled-up newspaper.]
@Everyone who isn't already: When respond to a question, could you possibly quote the question? Makes this much easier to read.[Also, if you're quoting, make note of who you're quoting, please. Including post numbers if you're not quoting is encouraged. By encouraged, I mean do it or I'll be on your ass until you do it.]
This isn't a scum-tell. It's not a bad thing to pressure for more information.[This.]
Ok.[<3]
Unvote.Why?
Oh, it seems that's correct. I should probably reread my vocabulary, EM seems to use a few terms differently.If so, I may start the bandwagon myself.[Just a personal peeve here. Bandwagoning is when, IMO, you're voting someone just because everyone else is without any good reasoning of your own. Also when you're trying to encourage other players to vote for your target with sketchy or poor reasoning. Stating someone is "starting a bandwagon" makes me want to wallop the speaker with a rolled-up newspaper.]
It looks like Nabic, Captain Ford and Kingfisher1112 haven't posted in over 24 hours. Don't you have anything at all to add?
@nabicTown would have no reason to suspect because only one cop is claiming.
You just said that you would role claim if you knew that there was a doctor, but what would you do to back-up that claim? What if scum didn't NK you, just to raise suspicion against you to get you on the chopping block?
Cause we aren't exactly waiting to get spoon fed fake information.
It looks like Nabic, Captain Ford and Kingfisher1112 haven't posted in over 24 hours. Don't you have anything at all to add?Was sidetracked by upcoming midterms, but I do have some questions to ask
ShoesandHats, Kingfisher1112 and Mr.Zero, you've not voted for anyone this entire game. Does nobody strike you as suspicious enough to give a Random vote?
What do you mean by role. What role? By the way most every issue during day one will be hypothetical. I don't see you mentioning that to anyone else. I'm not 100% who is scum. I'm just trying to get information.
(@Shakerag )Mr.Zero: If you could choose one player, right now, to lose thier vote for the rest of the game, who would it be and why?
Okay, I've come to a little bit of a conclusion. My scumhunting skills are almost certainly below everyone else's here, seeing as last time I played I was scum, but I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Zero and xny are scumbuddies. I emphasize the maybe. They seem a bit too eager to go at each others throats, and I get the impression that they're trying to cast suspicion off of themselves by constantly bombarding each other with questions and responses. I know I should probably grow a spine and be a bit more binary in my answers, but its a bit harder when you're used to actually knowing from the start who was town and who was your scumbuddy.
Captain Ford, you've been voting Nerjin since your first post this game. Why?
Sadly, I have no means with which to post for the next two weeks.
Request replacement.
Okay, I've come to a little bit of a conclusion. My scumhunting skills are almost certainly below everyone else's here, seeing as last time I played I was scum, but I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Zero and xny are scumbuddies. I emphasize the maybe. They seem a bit too eager to go at each others throats, and I get the impression that they're trying to cast suspicion off of themselves by constantly bombarding each other with questions and responses. I know I should probably grow a spine and be a bit more binary in my answers, but its a bit harder when you're used to actually knowing from the start who was town and who was your scumbuddy.
So, that's a vote for Mr. Zero.
@XnyYou want to know what's actually suspicious? This. "Stop talking about me, get to the lurkers!" Obviously these people are lurking, there's nothing I can do about that other than asking for the prod. So, are you worried about answering more questions? You didn't answer my previous one, do you feel the need to act town?
It seems that after rereading it once again, i've misunderstood your question of "Why you are questioning him, about why he's questioning others". While all you asked what he actually hoped to really gain. This led us to this odd discussion where there will be no winner. While there are lurkers amongst us.
That is a fine theory indeed, but it you should look around before you hop on the bandwagon. If we compare me,Xny and Nabic to the rest of the players, somethind stands out. Namely how active we are, we are trying to find the scum before the day ends. The rest however is staying low, waiting till the townies fight it out and hang themselves. Doesn't that strike suspicion?And then there's this as well. It's nearly the same thing, "I can't be scum, there are lurkers!" Are you going to redirect everything against you towards the lurking players? It also makes it sound like you being more active than other players automatically makes you town. I do suggest you take some more time to read through things before jumping to your crazy conclusions and questions, to prevent another 'huge misunderstanding'.
But then we have you, you stayed semi-lurking till now. You came here, cast a vote and created a good theory hoping it would support that vote. It is a good theory if it weren't for these lurkers.But then we have you, staying active, with wild theories but not voting for anything you say you find suspicious.
Okay, I've come to a little bit of a conclusion. My scumhunting skills are almost certainly below everyone else's here, seeing as last time I played I was scum, but I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Zero and xny are scumbuddies. I emphasize the maybe. They seem a bit too eager to go at each others throats, and I get the impression that they're trying to cast suspicion off of themselves by constantly bombarding each other with questions and responses. I know I should probably grow a spine and be a bit more binary in my answers, but its a bit harder when you're used to actually knowing from the start who was town and who was your scumbuddy.
So, that's a vote for Mr. Zero.
stuff
stuff
So you're suspecting me because I'm voting off of my own opinions rather than voting randomly. Makes sense.
Look, as much as lurkers and the such are suspicious, I'd rather base my vote off of evidence, even if it's not great. The reason I call the theory weak is that it is. On day 2, I'll hopefully have a better idea of what's going on. If there comes more suspicious activity from someone else, then I'll suspect them.
Mr. Zero
You yourself called it a good theory. Why did you call attention to the lurkers? You've provided no evidence to the contrary of my opinion.
It is widely known that Jim besides being a massive scumbag
@Shakerag oh jeez, that's a hard one. Uff it's random but i would most probably choose Jim. Cause in the past BM's that I've red, i have noticed that he likes to bully newbies. With that gone he would be less of a threat to town or scum depending on his alignment.
linkless quotes
Xny You make very poor attempts at creating good questions, are you even trying to scum hunt?
No, a FOS is not stronger than a vote. It was just a little pressure.
Arithmetic is for computers.Fine, I'll ask you for a proof next time. Also, hypothetically, if you were an IC in a beginner's game and a cop, how would you go about picking your inspect targets?
Okay, I've come to a little bit of a conclusion. My scumhunting skills are almost certainly below everyone else's here, seeing as last time I played I was scum, but I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Zero and xny are scumbuddies. I emphasize the maybe. They seem a bit too eager to go at each others throats, and I get the impression that they're trying to cast suspicion off of themselves by constantly bombarding each other with questions and responses. I know I should probably grow a spine and be a bit more binary in my answers, but its a bit harder when you're used to actually knowing from the start who was town and who was your scumbuddy.
Captain Ford, you've been voting Nerjin since your first post this game. Why?
As for Nerjin, hmm... you're off the hook ... for now. Unvote
It seemed odd to me that he was voting Nerjin, but focusing on questioning Kingfisher1112. Is it normal mafia protocol to leave your vote on someone while you hunt others?Captain Ford, you've been voting Nerjin since your first post this game. Why?
What's the issue with that?
a meta play and I dislike it for that reason.But later in your post you said:
scum, especially new scum, have a very difficult time interacting with their scumbuddies in ways that don't look odd or unnatural or forced, so much so that they typically avoid interacting with each other altogether.Don't you think determining new scum by these traits is meta play?
You're the only one so far who's given me a weird feeling, and I think that's why. What say you, ShoesandHats?Captain Ford, How much do weird feelings play into your scumhunting methods?
| Nerjin: | |||
| ShoesandHats: | Captain Ford | ||
| Kingfisher1112: | |||
| Captain Ford: | Nabic | ||
| Mr.Zero: | xny | Nerjin | ShoesandHats |
| Nabic: | Jim Groovester | ||
| xny: | |||
| Jim Groovester: | |||
| Shakerag: |
How did we extend day further?
It seemed odd to me that he was voting Nerjin, but focusing on questioning Kingfisher1112. Is it normal mafia protocol to leave your vote on someone while you hunt others?
Don't you think determining new scum by these traits is meta play?
@Jim Groovester: You seem to think that Mr. Zero is messing up rather badly. Do you think he's scum or just messing up as town?
Questions will come soon, as i have to leave soon.It's been almost 24 hours. Your Failure to Deliver is very scummy. Who do you find most suspicious, and why?
Because he answered my question in a satisfactory manner. Why do you want to know?Unvote.Why?
[...] Mr. Zero and xny are scumbuddies.[Trying to call the scumteam when no scum have flipped is a bad idea most of the time, but even more so on D1. Don't get into this habit.]
Shakerag, you've not posted in over 24 hours. Do you think ICs should be posting often to help and advise new players?[No, I think we should just leave you all out to sink or swim, gracing you with our overwhelming experience only when things are going totally to hell. Yes, of course we should be posting often. Everyone should be posting often. However, some of us have RL issues which inhibit that. Which is why I try to pack as much in as I can when I do post. Quality over quantity and all that.]
Because you then proceeded to do nothing at all. So what's stopping you from following up on him?Because he answered my question in a satisfactory manner. Why do you want to know?Unvote.Why?
Do you consider what you've posted so far quality? From what I see, you've done not much else than IC talk.Shakerag, you've not posted in over 24 hours. Do you think ICs should be posting often to help and advise new players?[No, I think we should just leave you all out to sink or swim, gracing you with our overwhelming experience only when things are going totally to hell. Yes, of course we should be posting often. Everyone should be posting often. However, some of us have RL issues which inhibit that. Which is why I try to pack as much in as I can when I do post. Quality over quantity and all that.]
Captain Ford, How much do weird feelings play into your scumhunting methods?
As for Nerjin, hmm... you're off the hook ... for now. Unvote
What for?
Captain Ford: What's stopping you from following up on Nerjin?Being completely overwhelmed trying to track the activity in the game. I had a really hard time the first few days tracking anything (the atrocious spelling in Mr. Zero's posts didn't help), so I focused on things I could figure out without being able to parse that huge mess of a conversation.
So you're suspecting me because I'm voting off of my own opinions rather than voting randomly.
What's the import one way or the other?
-Snip-
-Snip-
Mr. Zero
You yourself called it a good theory. Why did you call attention to the lurkers? You've provided no evidence to the contrary of my opinion.
Just some more thoughts on Mr. Zero.
Post #89 page 6: Extends while saying he has little to go on, however in post #83 he seems to believe he has a bit to go on. I'd like to add to Mr. Zero that no one is sure who is scum. Who do you think is most likely scum? Why aren't you voting them when the day is so close to over? Do you feel that by not voting you seem less suspicious?
-Snip-
Post #91 Page 7: No-lynch is bad, yet he refrains from voting for his top scum-pick. Seriously, who are you most suspicious of?
-Snip-
-Snip-
Mr.Zero, you've still not voted anyone, ignoring RVS. Although you purportedly made a mistake about xny, couldn't you find something suspicious others' posts?
You also promised:Questions will come soon, as i have to leave soon.It's been almost 24 hours. Your Failure to Deliver is very scummy. Who do you find most suspicious, and why?
-Snip-
So you're suspecting me because I'm voting off of my own opinions rather than voting randomly. Makes sense.
Look, as much as lurkers and the such are suspicious, I'd rather base my vote off of evidence, even if it's not great. The reason I call the theory weak is that it is. On day 2, I'll hopefully have a better idea of what's going on. If there comes more suspicious activity from someone else, then I'll suspect them.
Mr. Zero
-Snip-
I've called attention to the lurkers, like someone else already pointed out. Doesn't it strike you suspicious that some of us are constantly fighting while some are laying low?It strikes me so much more suspiciously that you continue to focus more on the lurkers than yourself.
Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.Pretty blatant OMGUS.
Xny: Why didn't you question other people besides me during the 3-4 page discussion?Stop using page numbers to describe things, we likely don't have the same setup. Either way, I prefer to keep my main focus on one at a time, just sidetracking a bit when I think I should.
Didn't they emit enough suspicion? Also what do you think of Nerjin suddenly jumping into the fray?Not as much suspicion as you. I don't care what Nerjin does until he says something I don't like.
Nerjin: Same questions as XNY(expects last one) but.... why did you help XNY? Weren't you confident enough that your buddy would succeed?Really throwing these FoS around aren't we? You continue to say we should care about the lurkers, but your two FoS are two of the most active players? You don't seem to like following your own rules.
Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.
Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.
I mostly didn't provide posts because if I did, my post alone would probably take up an entire page. Here, have some spoilered quotes in which you two go at each other.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Those are all the quotes that I could find. Some of them are a bit messed up, but I'm not sure why. It gets across the point, though, and the point is that you two might be fighting a lot in order to seem like town and to draw suspicion away from your partnership.
QuoteLots of quoted stuff
Those are all the quotes that I could find. Some of them are a bit messed up, but I'm not sure why. It gets across the point, though, and the point is that you two might be fighting a lot in order to seem like town and to draw suspicion away from your partnership.
Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.Pretty blatant OMGUS.
And once again, you've not answered my question. Do you feel the need to act town? Even if you just tell me to back off on this question, I want an answer.
I've called attention to the lurkers, like someone else already pointed out. Doesn't it strike you suspicious that some of us are constantly fighting while some are laying low?It strikes me so much more suspiciously that you continue to focus more on the lurkers than yourself.
Didn't they emit enough suspicion? Also what do you think of Nerjin suddenly jumping into the fray?Not as much suspicion as you. I don't care what Nerjin does until he says something I don't like.
Borno: What's your point of view on the situation that is before your eyes?
Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.Pretty blatant OMGUS.
And once again, you've not answered my question. Do you feel the need to act town? Even if you just tell me to back off on this question, I want an answer.
Borno: Do you consider voting for someone with little evidence a good vote?
I'm not sure what this question really means. No, I wouldn't vote for anyone without good reason (Unless if it was RVS), if that's what you're asking.
Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.Pretty blatant OMGUS.
You just admitted yourself that you did an OMGUS.
Do you feel the need to act town?
Those are all the quotes that I could find. Some of them are a bit messed up, but I'm not sure why. It gets across the point, though, and the point is that you two might be fighting a lot in order to seem like town and to draw suspicion away from your partnership.
-snip-
Xny: Why didn't you question other people besides me during the 3-4 page discussion? Didn't they emit enough suspicion? Also what do you think of Nerjin suddenly jumping into the fray?
Nerjin: Same questions as XNY(expects last one) but.... why did you help XNY? Weren't you confident enough that your buddy would succeed?
-snip-
Xny: Why didn't you question other people besides me during the 3-4 page discussion? Didn't they emit enough suspicion? Also what do you think of Nerjin suddenly jumping into the fray?
Nerjin: Same questions as XNY(expects last one) but.... why did you help XNY? Weren't you confident enough that your buddy would succeed?
-Snip-
I also love how you're floundering about so hard right now. Attacking blindly at anyone who strikes your fancy. Your poor attempts at deflecting suspicion on others won't work. Try harder Scum-boy.
Because you then proceeded to do nothing at all. So what's stopping you from following up on him?1 - Nothing is. I didn't feel a need to follow up.
[...]
Do you consider what you've posted so far quality? From what I see, you've done not much else than IC talk.
Nerjin, if you were cop and you knew for a fact there was a town doctor in the game (other than yourself), would you claim on the first day to draw the night kill to yourself, and potentially save a townie from being killed at night?[I think it's safe to say we're past the RVS phase. Let's focus on game-relevant questions now.]
[I wondered about how appropriate that was before I posted it. Thanks for clarifying]Nerjin, if you were cop and you knew for a fact there was a town doctor in the game (other than yourself), would you claim on the first day to draw the night kill to yourself, and potentially save a townie from being killed at night?[I think it's safe to say we're past the RVS phase. Let's focus on game-relevant questions now.]
Captain Ford: i hereby welcome our lurker back to the land of the living, could you share your opinions/questions? Cause it's awfully quiet around here.
Also what you call blindly flailing , i call it "attacking on multi pipe fronts." Something you can hardly say, cause ya know? In the end there are 2-3 scum members. and so far you think that you have caught one, while the other one is still running around.
In the end there are 2-3 scum members,
and so far you think that you have caught one, while the other one is still running around.
Gameplay and Concept
The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.
I want to know what your supposed scumhunting efforts have gotten you. Who would you finger as the most suspicious, in lieu of yourself?QuoteBlablabla, you said 2-3 scum and further sentence you mention only 2. blablabla
Why would you say that unless you knew there was only one other scum?
Wow. I looked for that but couldn't find it.Gameplay and Concept
The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.
Wow. I looked for that but couldn't find it.
Still, from the way he wrote the sentence, it's obvious Mr. Zero didn't know that when he wrote it, so I don't think it invalidates my point.
Read my previous posts. I have nothing more to add to them at this point.
Lots of evidence.
ShoesandHats: You said before that you thought xny and zero might be a scumteam. Why haven't you put any pressure on xny?
Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.
I mostly didn't provide posts because if I did, my post alone would probably take up an entire page. Here, have some spoilered quotes in which you two go at each other.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Those are all the quotes that I could find. Some of them are a bit messed up, but I'm not sure why. It gets across the point, though, and the point is that you two might be fighting a lot in order to seem like town and to draw suspicion away from your partnership.
As Jim once said: Scum rarely put together this sort of super-villian-esque plans.
Those are all the quotes that I could find. Some of them are a bit messed up, but I'm not sure why. It gets across the point, though, and the point is that you two might be fighting a lot in order to seem like town and to draw suspicion away from your partnership.
I'm not reading that.
Make your point intelligible. That is to say, find the most relevant and demonstrative evidence, and then state your opinion about it as concisely as possible.
You want people to vote with you and agree with your case, right? Then you should take care to make your points as clearly as possible and as convincing as possible.
Further, I asked you how their argument made you think they were scum. You didn't answer this question. You simply gave me a million posts, and declared that your conclusion was obvious. I disagree. You're going to have to explain and justify your point if you actually want people to care, much less agree with you.
Or maybe lazy bandwagons are your thing.
I'm trying to show the others that you're scum if my view-point happens to coincide with another's well then that's fine by me because it shows that the Town knows what to look for in scum. Namely you.
Jim: You trying to hatch an egg? You've been sitting on that vote long enough. Who are your top two scumpicks right now?
Yes, i didn't but i was looking from a more logical point as 3 scum would make a BM a very quick game, and since this is vanilla mafia i also thought about 2. But like i said i didn't want to disprove the possibility of 3 when i wrote my previous post.
Actually, that's a good point. Though now that I've said that if I actually try to put pressure on him he'll know to keep cool.
As Jim once said: Scum rarely put together this sort of super-villian-esque plans.
That's hardly super-villain-ey. Super-villainey is scheming to build a giant death ray. This is just regular scum tactics.
This is exactly why I say that they are just a wee too eager to go at each other in particular, rather than anyone else. While it is a common scum tactic to simply ignore your partner for the most part, there's another tactic on the other end of the spectrum, which is to simply attack each other relentlessly. The goal of it being to draw suspicion away by saying "Look at us, we're far to aggressive towards each other to ever possibly be scum buddies!"
Nabic, you missed a question:The importance was it seemed certain meta plays you were advocating (ones that out newbies), and others that you were dissuading (ones that out ICs). However, I guess the former being a scumtell is an adequate excuse.What's the import one way or the other?
Jim Groovester, For clarification, shouldn't town be more concerned with finding mafia than acting town? Only mafia need concern themselves with acting like town should. I mean, of course acting like town helps you not get lynched, but staying alive with the mafia doesn't help if you aren't lynching them.Do you feel the need to act town?Don't you?
Captain Ford: i hereby welcome our lurker back to the land of the living, could you share your opinions/questions? Cause it's awfully quiet around here.Mr.Zero, Would you like to ask me any actual questions, or are you just lashing out at anyone you can in a vain attempt to look like you're scum-hunting?
Nabic: I'd also love that you come back in here, or should i ask some more questions before you come out from your safety hole?
Xny: Why didn't you question other people besides me during the 3-4 page discussion? Didn't they emit enough suspicion? Also what do you think of Nerjin suddenly jumping into the fray?In your vote and FOSes, you pointed at your attackers (OMGUS). Jim Groovester says this isn't a problem if you have a reason for doing so. Your questions mainly boil down to "Why are you attacking me and not others?" What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin?
Nerjin: Same questions as XNY(expects last one) but.... why did you help XNY? Weren't you confident enough that your buddy would succeed?
Read my previous posts. I have nothing more to add to them at this point.Nerjin, If you're truly trying to show others that Mr.Zero is scum, this post isn't helpful. Although you have evidence from Mr.Zero's previous posts, it reads more to me like Mr.Zero is new rather than scum. What are your thoughts on his latest statements?
I wouldn't vote for anyone without good reason (Unless if it was RVS), if that's what you're asking.What "slip" or evidence against Mr.Zero makes you most suspicious?
... simply attack each other relentlessly. The goal of it being to draw suspicion away by saying "Look at us, we're far to aggressive towards each other to ever possibly be scum buddies!"
PFP;Extend, i agree on the borno thingy. But also i don't think day has reached it's climax yet.What borno thingy?
@Either IC, because borno was subbed in for Kingfisher1112, should do we basically give him a free day? Without extending further, there's not much time to get a read on him.
Nerjin, if you were cop and you knew for a fact there was a town doctor in the game (other than yourself), would you claim on the first day to draw the night kill to yourself, and potentially save a townie from being killed at night?[I think it's safe to say we're past the RVS phase. Let's focus on game-relevant questions now.]
Also, you vote ShoesandHats ... but with no further pressure/followup. How certain are you he's scum? Do you actually suspect Nerjin, or are you just going through the motions?
Jim Groovester, For clarification, shouldn't town be more concerned with finding mafia than acting town? Only mafia need concern themselves with acting like town should. I mean, of course acting like town helps you not get lynched, but staying alive with the mafia doesn't help if you aren't lynching them.[I'll take this one. It's more simple than you imagine. The #1 way to "look/act town" is to scumhunt aggressively. Therefore, the more you try and find scum, the more you look like town. That's the only "acting like town" you all need to concern yourselves with.]
@Either IC, because borno was subbed in for Kingfisher1112, should do we basically give him a free day? Without extending further, there's not much time to get a read on him.[It's difficult to deal with replacements. Wait until you get someone replacing in at LYLO. Basically, take your reads of the player before they replaced out and make note of them. You can't question about them anymore, but your impressions can remain. I feel that grilling a person replacing in is a good course of action, so that you can get as much of a read on the new person as possible to make up for the time they weren't in the game.]
The importance was it seemed certain meta plays you were advocating (ones that out newbies), and others that you were dissuading (ones that out ICs). However, I guess the former being a scumtell is an adequate excuse.
Jim Groovester, For clarification, shouldn't town be more concerned with finding mafia than acting town? Only mafia need concern themselves with acting like town should. I mean, of course acting like town helps you not get lynched, but staying alive with the mafia doesn't help if you aren't lynching them.
@Either IC, because borno was subbed in for Kingfisher1112, should do we basically give him a free day? Without extending further, there's not much time to get a read on him.
Mr.Zero, Would you like to ask me any actual questions, or are you just lashing out at anyone you can in a vain attempt to look like you're scum-hunting?
What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin
Your question was vague and unhelpful to town. In mafia, asked questions necessitate answers. Spamming others with questions wastes everyone's time reading them.Mr.Zero, Would you like to ask me any actual questions, or are you just lashing out at anyone you can in a vain attempt to look like you're scum-hunting?Ohoho, i only called you out on your semi-lurk that's all. Why are you getting so ehm... mad? about it?, do you have something to fear?
Why do you think their focus is solely on you? I don't know what you're looking at, but neither are exclusively attacking you.What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin
I consider that they are directly tunneling me. But before i explain further, i'm not complaining about them attacking me. No. I'm suspicious that they BOTH are exclusively attacking me, while giving a rat's ass what happens around them.
What's wrong with this? If they think you've cracked as mafia, shouldn't they be focusing on getting a lynch for that you?What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin
So it gives me the following impression of them: "Job's done, we found scum. Let's lynch him and worry about the other one on day 2." While they aren't even trying to find or search for any possible scumtells from scumbag #2. Which would make it even easier for town to spot/find scum on day 2.
They also stopped strengthening their case against me which against is laziness. Though XNY said that he will post something soon.You've not been strengthening your case either. You haven't said anything to ShoesandHats since 2.5 days ago. Why? How are you different from the "laziness" of Nerjin and xny?
Your question was vague and unhelpful to town. In mafia, asked questions necessitate answers. Spamming others with questions wastes everyone's time reading them.Mr.Zero, Would you like to ask me any actual questions, or are you just lashing out at anyone you can in a vain attempt to look like you're scum-hunting?Ohoho, i only called you out on your semi-lurk that's all. Why are you getting so ehm... mad? about it?, do you have something to fear?
What's wrong with this? If they think you've cracked as mafia, shouldn't they be focusing on getting a lynch for that you?What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin
So it gives me the following impression of them: "Job's done, we found scum. Let's lynch him and worry about the other one on day 2." While they aren't even trying to find or search for any possible scumtells from scumbag #2. Which would make it even easier for town to spot/find scum on day 2.
They also stopped strengthening their case against me which against is laziness. Though XNY said that he will post something soon.You've not been strengthening your case either. You haven't said anything to ShoesandHats since 2.5 days ago. Why? How are you different from the "laziness" of Nerjin and xny?
And here it is.Oh well in that case we shouldn’t ever pressure scum because they’ll be expecting it. That’s incredibly lazy. And pretty suspicious.ShoesandHats: You said before that you thought xny and zero might be a scumteam. Why haven't you put any pressure on xny?
Actually, that's a good point. Though now that I've said that if I actually try to put pressure on him he'll know to keep cool.
This assumes that scum are trying to be super sneaky. I don’t deny that they do this but I’ve played scum. Near the end they’ll try this but near the beginning? No. They really don’t. They try to, as Jim pointed out, avoid eachother entirely.Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.I mostly didn't provide posts because if I did, my post alone would probably take up an entire page. Here, have some spoilered quotes in which you two go at each other.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Those are all the quotes that I could find. Some of them are a bit messed up, but I'm not sure why. It gets across the point, though, and the point is that you two might be fighting a lot in order to seem like town and to draw suspicion away from your partnership.
As Jim once said: Scum rarely put together this sort of super-villian-esque plans.
That's hardly super-villain-ey. Super-villainey is scheming to build a giant death ray. This is just regular scum tactics.
Pretty blatant pressure question.Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.Pretty blatant OMGUS.
Okay, I've come to a little bit of a conclusion. My scumhunting skills are almost certainly below everyone else's here, seeing as last time I played I was scum, but I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Zero and xny are scumbuddies. I emphasize the maybe. They seem a bit too eager to go at each others throats, and I get the impression that they're trying to cast suspicion off of themselves by constantly bombarding each other with questions and responses. I know I should probably grow a spine and be a bit more binary in my answers, but its a bit harder when you're used to actually knowing from the start who was town and who was your scumbuddy.
So, that's a vote for Mr. Zero.
Perhaps it’s because they think the other is scum. You know what? I think you’re being too cautious early on and too lazy in later arguments Shoesandhats
This is exactly why I say that they are just a wee too eager to go at each other in particular, rather than anyone else. While it is a common scum tactic to simply ignore your partner for the most part, there's another tactic on the other end of the spectrum, which is to simply attack each other relentlessly. The goal of it being to draw suspicion away by saying "Look at us, we're far to aggressive towards each other to ever possibly be scum buddies!"
xny
If you and Mr. Zero aren't scum buddies, why are you focusing on him in particular?
I can state my own opinion about your post, and I don't need special credentials to do so. Even though I didn't spell it out, I thought you could infer that my frustration didn't stem from fear. I was frustrated because your question didn't appear (to me) to contribute much to finding mafia.snip
Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that? I just poked you for your semi-lurk and you jumped, then i asked that question. You totally avoided that question, now it does seem like you have something to hide. If you wouldn't you'd answered the question and produced that statement with it.
Please explain the lack of answer, even though it should be a easy question.
According to Dakakrian's Scumhunting Bible, they should be pushing for your lynch until they either can guarantee you're not scum, they get lynched or you get lynched.snip
Yes and no. They should get the lynch on me if they believe i'm scum, but @Nabic : shouldn't they scum hunt further and keep me on their scum leash?
snip
Whoa time flies so fast? I can't properly strenghten my case, because of him not posting anything but i can do this.
Shoesandhats oh my scummy friend, where are thee? Why have you hidden yourself from our sight?Have you given up? Or are you creating that piece of evidence which will blow us out of our minds and in explicitly proves that i'm scum?
Why do you think their focus is solely on you?
Expect a post from me when I've not just gotten out of bed.How's that going for you, ShoesandHats? Are you taking a break so you don't give yourself away?
Expect a post from me when I've not just gotten out of bed.How's that going for you, ShoesandHats? Are you taking a break so you don't give yourself away?
ShoesandhatsQuite a few people have told you that, that certain tactic is too complicated and too risky to perform, cause the chance of backfiring is very high. Even more so in a BM game. Why do keep clinging to that theory instead of moving on and creating a new case against me or someone else?
or aren't you confident enough that you can support your vote if you don't continue using that theory?
Shoesandhats oh my scummy friend, where are thee? Why have you hidden yourself from our sight?Have you given up? Or are you creating that piece of evidence which will blow us out of our minds and in explicitly proves that i'm scum?
@Shoesandhats: Because he created a tie and seems to have done so specifically to create a tie. We need a lynch. It just strikes me as odd.
Captain Ford:
Also, you vote ShoesandHats ... but with no further pressure/followup. How certain are you he's scum? Do you actually suspect Nerjin, or are you just going through the motions?
@Shoesandhats: Because he created a tie and seems to have done so specifically to create a tie. We need a lynch. It just strikes me as odd.And this is the second time that I'm going to have to say that someone has a good point.
Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that?
@Jim
Could you provide some more specific examples of his dodging? You tying it up seems a little odd. Jim did you just do it to protect your scum-partner by any chance?
And here it is.ShoesandHats: You said before that you thought xny and zero might be a scumteam. Why haven't you put any pressure on xny?
Actually, that's a good point. Though now that I've said that if I actually try to put pressure on him he'll know to keep cool.
I don't know, I think the fact that you keep trying to turn me off the theory that marks you as scum is a little suspicious. Instead of trying to avoid being lynched, try scumhunting. I'm not saying that you're failing to do this, I'm just saying that a town should be less concerned about being lynched and be more worried about being competent.
What are your thoughts on [Mr.Zero's] latest statements?
Nerjin, what is your read on Captain Ford?
This represents what I mean well. He's made a very large and obvious mistake (not pressuring someone he FOS's), and reacted very calmly to being questioned about it, instead of immediately going to fix it. Also his reason for lynching Mr. Zero comes down to 'he's scum hunting wrong because he spends too much effort on one person', which is a classic scumtell, yet in pursuing this he doesn't even apply basic pressure to xny/me.ShoesandHats: You said before that you thought xny and zero might be a scumteam. Why haven't you put any pressure on xny?
Actually, that's a good point. Though now that I've said that if I actually try to put pressure on him he'll know to keep cool.
Look! A tie!You're such a dick.
request replacement.[Come back whenever; we'll still be here. I'd personally like to see you in more games because I like your style. Just do remember that these games run several weeks and need some TLC each day.]
Shakerag, Do you have any reads you'd like to share? Who do you think is scum?Nerjin - Neutral
Now to do what I really need to learn to do better: Ask questions!Why, in particular, no questions to either of the IC's? Shakerag hasn't been under significant pressure at all, as far as I know. You can't wait for him to slip himself, so why no actual questions?
Shoesandhats oh my scummy friend, where are thee? Why have you hidden yourself from our sight?Have you given up? Or are you creating that piece of evidence which will blow us out of our minds and in explicitly proves that i'm scum?What is the point of this question? To annoy ShoesandHats? To poke him? Why does it need to be so sarcastic to get him to post? Why not put down real pressure and force him to answer that or get lynched?
The tone of this is very argumentative and generally unhelpful. If you want someone to answer your/a question, why don't you quote that question?Your question was vague and unhelpful to town. In mafia, asked questions necessitate answers. Spamming others with questions wastes everyone's time reading them.Mr.Zero, Would you like to ask me any actual questions, or are you just lashing out at anyone you can in a vain attempt to look like you're scum-hunting?Ohoho, i only called you out on your semi-lurk that's all. Why are you getting so ehm... mad? about it?, do you have something to fear?
Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that? I just poked you for your semi-lurk and you jumped, then i asked that question. You totally avoided that question, now it does seem like you have something to hide. If you wouldn't you'd answered the question and produced that statement with it.
Please explain the lack of answer, even though it should be a easy question.
This part is fairly redeeming, in that it seems true. However, Mr.Zero: given that you've been called on it, shouldn't you stop focusing on who is pressuring you, and instead deal with it while scumhunting. ShoesandHats is the only one you seem to be putting much pressure on.What's wrong with this? If they think you've cracked as mafia, shouldn't they be focusing on getting a lynch for that you?What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin
So it gives me the following impression of them: "Job's done, we found scum. Let's lynch him and worry about the other one on day 2." While they aren't even trying to find or search for any possible scumtells from scumbag #2. Which would make it even easier for town to spot/find scum on day 2.
Yes and no. They should get the lynch on me if they believe i'm scum, but @Nabic : shouldn't they scum hunt further and keep me on their scum leash?
Nerjin, what is your read on Captain Ford?
ShoesandHats - ScummyShakerag, Why are you still voting Captain Ford?
Captain Ford - Slightly scummy
Why, in particular, no questions to either of the IC's? Shakerag hasn't been under significant pressure at all, as far as I know. You can't wait for him to slip himself, so why no actual questions?Scottzar, why complain about others not questioning ICs if you don't do it yourself?
Jim, also, has been acting if not suspiciously, rather strangely. I suppose meta-tells in a BM game aren't really that valid because of the playstyle change, but you can at least start to ask him about it.
I admit that I have been investigating Nerjin out of some strange sense of responsibility to back up my random vote (though also because he wasn't garnering much attention). Your gentle nudging may have played a part in that.Captain Ford, don't you think town should investigate people they find suspicious, rather than those who aren't being questioned?
There certainly are some days where I run out of time and don't get to post questions to everyone I'd like. I try to focus on adding to the thread rather than simply reiterating what someone else has said.
ShoesandHats, How does this add to finding mafia? Don't you think it would be better scum-hunting to ask another question for Jim rather than merely agreeing with others?snipAnd this is the second time that I'm going to have to say that someone has a good point.
Mr.ZeroShoesandhats oh my scummy friend, where are thee? Why have you hidden yourself from our sight?Have you given up? Or are you creating that piece of evidence which will blow us out of our minds and in explicitly proves that i'm scum?What is the point of this question? To annoy ShoesandHats? To poke him? Why does it need to be so sarcastic to get him to post? Why not put down real pressure and force him to answer that or get lynched?
The point was simply to prod him, it doesn't differ that lot if Urist would've prodded him. The difference is that i've added a little flavor and questions alongside. Now that i look at it again , he didn't even truly to answer those small questions at all. He just redirected them to the answer of my second question.The tone of this is very argumentative and generally unhelpful. If you want someone to answer your/a question, why don't you quote that question?Your question was vague and unhelpful to town. In mafia, asked questions necessitate answers. Spamming others with questions wastes everyone's time reading them.Mr.Zero, Would you like to ask me any actual questions, or are you just lashing out at anyone you can in a vain attempt to look like you're scum-hunting?Ohoho, i only called you out on your semi-lurk that's all. Why are you getting so ehm... mad? about it?, do you have something to fear?
Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that? I just poked you for your semi-lurk and you jumped, then i asked that question. You totally avoided that question, now it does seem like you have something to hide. If you wouldn't you'd answered the question and produced that statement with it.
Please explain the lack of answer, even though it should be a easy question.
Why do you call Nabic out on not being able to decide the worth of a question? How does this help your argument? Jim talked to you about it, but you never explained your reasoning.
Because i believe that he automatically assumed that everyone was thinking what he thought at that moment, thus he disregarded it as useless for everyone. While let's say Shakerag ,Borno and i might think different about that.
This helped my argument slightly by seeing that he avoided the question completely, if he has nothing to fear he could've answered it. Even if it was a lie back then like "I was busy, sleeping, sickness, work, etc.", there was no way i would've noticed that he was lying. If he did at all. But now he avoided it, thus it raised my suspicion.QuoteThis part is fairly redeeming, in that it seems true. However, Mr.Zero: given that you've been called on it, shouldn't you stop focusing on who is pressuring you, and instead deal with it while scumhunting. ShoesandHats is the only one you seem to be putting much pressure on.What's wrong with this? If they think you've cracked as mafia, shouldn't they be focusing on getting a lynch for that you?What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin
So it gives me the following impression of them: "Job's done, we found scum. Let's lynch him and worry about the other one on day 2." While they aren't even trying to find or search for any possible scumtells from scumbag #2. Which would make it even easier for town to spot/find scum on day 2.
Yes and no. They should get the lynch on me if they believe i'm scum, but @Nabic : shouldn't they scum hunt further and keep me on their scum leash?
I've had SOMETHING on Xny, but unfortunately he got replaced by u. So right now, i'm left with a case against shoesandhast and leads here and there, but i cannot figure out something strong or something that isn;t utter bullshit.
@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?
@Borno: you've been lurking/not posting for a while. What is the justification? How do you think your lurking will have changed people's opinion of you? Do you think not posting is worse for a scum or a townie in regards to their chance to win?
ShoesandHats, re. the question: My order of scum would probably be:
ShoesandHats
Mr.Zero
Borno
Shakerag
Captain Ford
Jim
Nabic
Nerjin
ShoesandHats, How does this add to finding mafia? Don't you think it would be better scum-hunting to ask another question for Jim rather than merely agreeing with others?snipAnd this is the second time that I'm going to have to say that someone has a good point.
ShoesandHats, how have Mr.Zero's latest posts affected your impression of him? What pieces of evidence changed your opinion or kept it constant?
I don't know, I think the fact that you keep trying to turn me off the theory that marks you as scum is a little suspicious. Instead of trying to avoid being lynched, try scumhunting. I'm not saying that you're failing to do this, I'm just saying that a town should be less concerned about being lynched and be more worried about being competent.
You think Mr.Zero defending himself is suspicious?
What a motherfucker for trying.
I admit that I have been investigating Nerjin out of some strange sense of responsibility to back up my random vote (though also because he wasn't garnering much attention). Your gentle nudging may have played a part in that.Captain Ford, don't you think town should investigate people they find suspicious, rather than those who aren't being questioned?
There certainly are some days where I run out of time and don't get to post questions to everyone I'd like. I try to focus on adding to the thread rather than simply reiterating what someone else has said.
Also, how did your question to ShoesandHats added to the scumhunt?
@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?
borno, Currently, you're voting for Mr.Zero because of a "slip" and an OMGUS. You said to him:I wouldn't vote for anyone without good reason (Unless if it was RVS), if that's what you're asking.What "slip" or evidence against Mr.Zero makes you most suspicious?
With that gone he would be less of a threat to town or scum depending on his alignment.Town shouldn't really care if things would be made harder for scum, in fact they should even encourage it. However this wasn't really enough to warrant a vote, but when he got called out for it, he got defensive. Soon after, he started calling attention to the lurkers, and saying that it all was just a misunderstanding.
To sum it up.
-Lurky lurk of lurkiness. You/Nabic/ IC's ( I firmly believe they are players as well, though i can understand that they may be busy they should acknowledge the thread by saying PFP i believe.)
-Lack of further scumhunting by Nerjin/Xny/shoesandhats
-Scuminness of shoesandhats/borno
Borno: Welcome to the game. I can't think of any original questions for you right now, but I'd like to ask for your opinion about Nerjin as well.
borno: Give me your reads on ShoesandHats, Captain Ford, and xny, please.
@Borno: you've been lurking/not posting for a while. What is the justification? How do you think your lurking will have changed people's opinion of you? Do you think not posting is worse for a scum or a townie in regards to their chance to win?
ScottzarSure:
Could you provide some reasons for the order of your suspicion list? For example, why Captain Ford is in the middle or why Nerjin is at the bottom?
But I did.Why, in particular, no questions to either of the IC's? Shakerag hasn't been under significant pressure at all, as far as I know. You can't wait for him to slip himself, so why no actual questions?Scottzar, why complain about others not questioning ICs if you don't do it yourself?
Jim, also, has been acting if not suspiciously, rather strangely. I suppose meta-tells in a BM game aren't really that valid because of the playstyle change, but you can at least start to ask him about it.
Jim: you are playing very differently to how you did in, say, Wild West Mafia. You are much more... laconic. In particular, I would have expected you to pressure ShoesandHats when you changed your vote to him. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but I'd like to see why you personally are doing this.I hadn't said anything to Shakerag yet, though.
Please tell me so if this kind of quoting is annoying to you. I personally see little harm in it, but opinions can differ. My post is ORANGEOf course he didn't answer them. They weren't serious. They looked like (and were) someone randomly attaching trolling to an otherwise valid prod. Right idea, wrong execution. Not really a scumread, though, unless you were doing it to provoke him which you may well be doing.
Mr.ZeroShoesandhats oh my scummy friend, where are thee? Why have you hidden yourself from our sight?Have you given up? Or are you creating that piece of evidence which will blow us out of our minds and in explicitly proves that i'm scum?What is the point of this question? To annoy ShoesandHats? To poke him? Why does it need to be so sarcastic to get him to post? Why not put down real pressure and force him to answer that or get lynched?
The point was simply to prod him, it doesn't differ that lot if Urist would've prodded him. The difference is that i've added a little flavor and questions alongside. Now that i look at it again , he didn't even truly to answer those small questions at all. He just redirected them to the answer of my second question.
You didn't say why you didn't quote the question. That wasn't rhetoric.Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that? I just poked you for your semi-lurk and you jumped, then i asked that question. You totally avoided that question, now it does seem like you have something to hide. If you wouldn't you'd answered the question and produced that statement with it.The tone of this is very argumentative and generally unhelpful. If you want someone to answer your/a question, why don't you quote that question?
Please explain the lack of answer, even though it should be a easy question.
Why do you call Nabic out on not being able to decide the worth of a question? How does this help your argument? Jim talked to you about it, but you never explained your reasoning.
Because i believe that he automatically assumed that everyone was thinking what he thought at that moment, thus he disregarded it as useless for everyone. While let's say Shakerag ,Borno and i might think different about that.
This helped my argument slightly by seeing that he avoided the question completely, if he has nothing to fear he could've answered it. Even if it was a lie back then like "I was busy, sleeping, sickness, work, etc.", there was no way i would've noticed that he was lying. If he did at all. But now he avoided it, thus it raised my suspicion.
Then tell us the utter bullshit. If you notice anything, you can start to pressure someone on it. Maybe not vote them, but ask, Pressure is how you make people slip and crack.QuoteThis part is fairly redeeming, in that it seems true. However, Mr.Zero: given that you've been called on it, shouldn't you stop focusing on who is pressuring you, and instead deal with it while scumhunting. ShoesandHats is the only one you seem to be putting much pressure on.
Yes and no. They should get the lynch on me if they believe i'm scum, but @Nabic : shouldn't they scum hunt further and keep me on their scum leash?
I've had SOMETHING on Xny, but unfortunately he got replaced by u. So right now, i'm left with a case against shoesandhast and leads here and there, but i cannot figure out something strong or something that isn;t utter bullshit.
Also, in your last post, which was fairly large, you make no effort to hunt scumSweet jesus, Scottzar.. i Don't think that you have red the last sentence at the bottom of the quoteblock.
also, i will finish this hopefully tomorrow. As it's very late now near me, if the extend didn't pass them i'm sorry i cannot be here to finish this. But i have to get some sleep before i go to school from 8 AM in the morning.
PFPI did. So you are admitting now that dealing with my pressure is more important then scumhunting. If you only had time for just that post, why not make it about a good case on, say, nerjin?QuoteAlso, in your last post, which was fairly large, you make no effort to hunt scumSweet jesus, Scottzar.. i Don't think that you have red the last sentence at the bottom of the quoteblock.Quotealso, i will finish this hopefully tomorrow. As it's very late now near me, if the extend didn't pass them i'm sorry i cannot be here to finish this. But i have to get some sleep before i go to school from 8 AM in the morning.
Also, unrelated question to IC's or anyone who knows the answer. I've been reading some mafia games and i see that Tiruin uses shortcuts like EBWOP, EEP ( maybe he meant PFP). What do they mean?EBWOP is edit by way of post, i.e. reposting with a slight edit to fix a mistake in the original, to make up for a lack of edits.
This represents what I mean well. He's made a very large and obvious mistake (not pressuring someone he FOS's), and reacted very calmly to being questioned about it, instead of immediately going to fix it.
Jim: you are playing very differently to how you did in, say, Wild West Mafia. You are much more... laconic. In particular, I would have expected you to pressure ShoesandHats when you changed your vote to him. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but I'd like to see why you personally are doing this.
Why, in particular, no questions to either of the IC's? Shakerag hasn't been under significant pressure at all, as far as I know. You can't wait for him to slip himself, so why no actual questions?
Jim, also, has been acting if not suspiciously, rather strangely. I suppose meta-tells in a BM game aren't really that valid because of the playstyle change, but you can at least start to ask him about it.
@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?
Mr.Zero: you seem to be harassing people to supplement your pressure. Do you think the potentially added scumhunting, if any, is enough to counteract the hate and votes it earns you?
Jim: you defended Mr.Zero's action of defending himself. I can see why you defend people in a BM, but his excessive amount of self defence appears to occur in lieu of scumhunting. If this trend continues, do you think he is the second most scummy?
Yes, I do. I simply agreed with him and wanted Jim to answer for it, which he didn't.
Day extended to Monday October 29th, 9 PM PST.
... Are you really questioning me because i couldn't finish my post due to being tired and thus having to sleep?No. As I can recall, I said "If you only had time for just that post, why not make it about a good case on, say, nerjin?". Remember the part where I said
Then tell us the utter bullshit. If you notice anything, you can start to pressure someone on it. Maybe not vote them, but ask, Pressure is how you make people slip and crack..
also please, show the sentence where i admit that i find it more important to deal with your pressure than scumhunt. Cause i like it how you are putting words in my mouth, which i've never said.It's the entire section where you defend from me instead of scumhunting.
This represents what I mean well. He's made a very large and obvious mistake (not pressuring someone he FOS's), and reacted very calmly to being questioned about it, instead of immediately going to fix it.
Generally speaking, the calm reaction is the significantly better one. People who react in immediate response to pressure are regarded as scummy.
The general thinking is that people who have something to hide, i.e., scum, will react more strongly if they're confronted with it. Cf, the reaction of any child who knows he/she did something wrong, or anyone who's not a practiced liar.
On the other hand, people who have nothing to hide, i.e., town, will be significantly calmer.
This only applies if there's an actual response. A calm response is better then a reactionary one, but no response is not ideal at all.
The problem I had is that he basically says "You're right, I should put pressure on xny" then proceeds to pretend to do that. His question was "If you and Mr. Zero aren't scum buddies, why are you focusing on him in particular?", despite the fact that, AFAIK, xny wasn't really posting much at that point and hadn't apologised for it yet, which would have been a useful part of pressure.Jim: you are playing very differently to how you did in, say, Wild West Mafia. You are much more... laconic. In particular, I would have expected you to pressure ShoesandHats when you changed your vote to him. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but I'd like to see why you personally are doing this.
That game was a year ago and now I'm busy as fuck.
I've called him lazy and his arguments scummy and terrible and voted him. There's not much more I can squeeze out of him unless he takes a sudden interest in responding to my accusations in a substantive manner.
Not much to say here, just asking because I was sort of familiar with your playstyle a year ago.Why, in particular, no questions to either of the IC's? Shakerag hasn't been under significant pressure at all, as far as I know. You can't wait for him to slip himself, so why no actual questions?
Jim, also, has been acting if not suspiciously, rather strangely. I suppose meta-tells in a BM game aren't really that valid because of the playstyle change, but you can at least start to ask him about it.
I can appreciate your general attitude that pressuring everyone to some extent is a good thing.
If you can find significant issues to pressure everyone one on that consistently lead to strong gains in finding scum, then you're a better player than all of us.
I think as you get more experience, you'll find this is difficult to do.
I just disliked how in the past days of posts, neither IC was under much pressure. Out of the RVS, with no real scumtells dropped, neither IC was really being questioned. Which makes sense I suppose, D2 hasn't started yet, which I am largely responsible for. I guess I'm just impatient.@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?
Fair warning, this might offend you, but I assume that when you replace in you're going to post.
And if there's anything I find that looks odd or scummy or out of the ordinary, I am going to question you about it.
However, if I don't see anything odd or scummy or out of the ordinary, I'm not going to question you, because there is nothing to question. I can't invent issues to attack you with for the sake of 'pressure.'
Of course I'm going to post, why would I be offended? I was just expecting questions about my suspicions and thoughts from the rest of the thread, which I suppose I've gotten. (and still need to answer some of).Mr.Zero: you seem to be harassing people to supplement your pressure. Do you think the potentially added scumhunting, if any, is enough to counteract the hate and votes it earns you?
We don't play mafia to be nice to each other.
At the same time, we don't play mafia to be raging dicks to each other.
It doesn't really matter if he's winning a popularity contest or losing it to me, it would be suspicious of him to try.
It's just a question. He's using a fair amount of vitriol, and responding poorly to pressure. Getting him to think about what I am asking him, and, further, throw pressure on him until he starts to instinctively do something. In this case, that is defend himself, which is a scumtell.Jim: you defended Mr.Zero's action of defending himself. I can see why you defend people in a BM, but his excessive amount of self defence appears to occur in lieu of scumhunting. If this trend continues, do you think he is the second most scummy?
Defending yourself to the complete exclusion of scumhunting is scummy, yes.
That said, my read on Mr.Zero is that of a beginner flailing around trying to get the hang of the game and panicking at having his head near the noose. I don't think he's scum for his reactions so far.
I was thinking about that, which is why my vote isn't on him. I'm mostly pressuring him to scumhunt, which may be counter-productive. When he writes a bigger post in his spare time, I suppose we will see.
Yes, I do. I simply agreed with him and wanted Jim to answer for it, which he didn't.
Bullshit.
You made your lazy attack in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3726116#msg3726116) in response to Nerjin questioning why I tied the vote. I responded here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3726992#msg3726992).
-snip-Shorten I think we've seen enough to all make a decision. First of all.
Nerjin: Your posts since http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3726091#msg3726091 haven't been very substantial. Any reason for this?
Also, you appear to find Jim to be highly scummy, but don't vote him. Is this because you think Mr.Zero is innocent, or some other reason (i.e. scumbuddies) which you think protecting him is important, or is ShoesandHats genuinely too scummy to sacrifice a chance to lynch to put pressure on Jim?
Borno and Nerjin: similar to the above question: do you think ShoesandHats is scummy, or innocent?
-snip-
@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?Mostly because I've been rather busy. Also because I didn't find xny to be terribly scummy, so I haven't had a strong urge to follow up on his replacement.
Shakerag: why no pressure on me? Why is Mr.Zero possibly town, and why am I? Shouldn't I be neutral because of how little chance to get a read you had?Why are you asking me that twice before I've had a chance to respond? Mr.Zero smells way more strongly of newbie to me than scum right now. I'm reading him as newbie town responding to getting dogpiled on. As for you, my townie impressions from xny are carrying over for now. If you act like a raging scumbucket, then my read will correspondingly change.
Shakerag, Why are you still voting Captain Ford?Again, busy. I wanted to confirm my supicions on a re-read before I changed my vote, and haven't gotten to it yet.
Blugh.[Pshaw. Even without two replaces you know as well as I do D1 stretches forever.]
I just disliked how in the past days of posts, neither IC was under much pressure. Out of the RVS, with no real scumtells dropped, neither IC was really being questioned. Which makes sense I suppose, D2 hasn't started yet, which I am largely responsible for. I guess I'm just impatient.[Generally, from my observations, it seems like ICs are either often avoided (whether due to lack of tells to go on, intimidated by a more experienced player, etc.) or relentlessly pursued by a "hotshit newbie". I'm not terribly surprised by the lack of ICward questions.]
He's using a fair amount of vitriol [...][You haven't met Dariush yet, have you?]
Thanks for calling me out on that. I guess the first time I looked over that I didn't notice that part of the post, or at least didn't think it was referring to the tie.ShoesandHats: Why are you thanking Jim for calling you out rather than acknowledging it as an oversight? Do you think kissing his ass will make him less likely to continue to vote you?
Bad Shoes, read posts more carefully!
Shorten I think we've seen enough to all make a decision. First of all.Bold. It's rare to see anyone throw out a shorten anymore. So, just to get this straight, you think Mr.Zero and ShoesandHats are the scumteam, yes? Therefore you don't care which gets lynched, even if it isn't the one you're voting for? Do you think there are interactions between the two that confirm this for you?
Shorten I think we've seen enough to all make a decision. First of all.Bold. It's rare to see anyone throw out a shorten anymore. So, just to get this straight, you think Mr.Zero and ShoesandHats are the scumteam, yes? Therefore you don't care which gets lynched, even if it isn't the one you're voting for? Do you think there are interactions between the two that confirm this for you?
Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that? I just poked you for your semi-lurk and you jumped, then i asked that question. You totally avoided that question, now it does seem like you have something to hide. If you wouldn't you'd answered the question and produced that statement with it.The tone of this is very argumentative and generally unhelpful. If you want someone to answer your/a question, why don't you quote that question?
Please explain the lack of answer, even though it should be a easy question.
Why do you call Nabic out on not being able to decide the worth of a question? How does this help your argument? Jim talked to you about it, but you never explained your reasoning.
Because i believe that he automatically assumed that everyone was thinking what he thought at that moment, thus he disregarded it as useless for everyone. While let's say Shakerag ,Borno and i might think different about that.
This helped my argument slightly by seeing that he avoided the question completely, if he has nothing to fear he could've answered it. Even if it was a lie back then like "I was busy, sleeping, sickness, work, etc.", there was no way i would've noticed that he was lying. If he did at all. But now he avoided it, thus it raised my suspicion.
[
You didn't say why you didn't quote the question. That wasn't rhetoric.
Also, your answer is illogical and avoids my question: it didn't help your argument by seeing that he had avoided the question because he had already done that, then you slapped the pointless, insulting end on anyway. This is instead of, say, quoting the question you want him to answer.
Ohoho, i only called you out on your semi-lurk that's all. Why are you getting so ehm... mad? about it?, do you have something to fear?
Your question was vague and unhelpful to town. In mafia, asked questions necessitate answers. Spamming others with questions wastes everyone's time reading them.
borno, Currently, you're voting for Mr.Zero because of a "slip" and an OMGUS. You said to him:His initial slip was saying that he'd make Jim Groovester lose his vote for the rest of the game, because he bullied newbies andI wouldn't vote for anyone without good reason (Unless if it was RVS), if that's what you're asking.What "slip" or evidence against Mr.Zero makes you most suspicious?With that gone he would be less of a threat to town or scum depending on his alignment.Town shouldn't really care if things would be made harder for scum, in fact they should even encourage it. However this wasn't really enough to warrant a vote, but when he got called out for it, he got defensive. Soon after, he started calling attention to the lurkers, and saying that it all was just a misunderstanding.
Mr.Zero: you seem to be harassing people to supplement your pressure. Do you think the potentially added scumhunting, if any, is enough to counteract the hate and votes it earns you?
Also, in your last post, which was fairly large, you make no effort to hunt scum. The only reason at this point that I don't have my vote on you is that ShoesandHats is using really bad arguments to try and force a lynch on you, because you seem scummy.
Is this babies first buss that I see going on, or do you have a good reason why Shoes is scum?
Mr.Zero:
Also, in your last post, which was fairly large, you make no effort to hunt scum.
Sweet jesus, Scottzar.. i Don't think that you have red the last sentence at the bottom of the quoteblock.
Thanks for calling me out on that. I guess the first time I looked over that I didn't notice that part of the post, or at least didn't think it was referring to the tie.ShoesandHats: Why are you thanking Jim for calling you out rather than acknowledging it as an oversight? Do you think kissing his ass will make him less likely to continue to vote you?
Bad Shoes, read posts more carefully!
EBWOP: #221 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3731412#msg3731412)Because pressure doesn't magically go away because you're busy. It sits there, as a suspicion, until you have the time to address it.
Scottzar: Why did you keep pressing me like that? while i've told you that my IRL time was limited and that i would finish it today?
It's the entire section where you defend from me instead of scumhunting.Since you're fond of logic, I'll explain my reasoning in a more hierarchical way:
Scottzar: Why did you lie as well? I've never stated in any comment claiming that i only defended against you. You only did.I didn't lie. See the above: you didn't scumhunt in that post, so defending yourself was a greater priority than scumhunting. Might make sense if the day is going to end and you have the majority of votes, but mine is on ShoesandHats.
I think that i know what you meant with that question, but il wait for your answer.
Good reason why shoesandhats is scum? I don't know like...Beautiful. Other people have made these points, yes, but you still need to justify your vote. Voting someone without saying an argument simply because others have made one is usually bandwagoning; even if it is just a compilation of points from the thread, its important to explain your reasoning, so it can be attacked if necessary.
1. He's shady about answering some questions.
2. He keeps clinging to his theory, but he doesn't support it with any arguments.
3. He's acting lazy
4. Instead of scumhunting, he still keep clinging to his theory.
5. Semi-lurk.
6. Tries to deflect questions if he ain't answering them.
What you will most probably notice is that these points already have been made on the board. That question is just plain stupid and shows that you are lazy and didn't bother to truly read everything and decided to have a go at someone and let him sum up the points for you.Actually, if you look at my first post, its half of my explanation for why ShoesandHats is scum. The second adds to this. As does the third. "
No, what you are doing (in regards to harassing to increase pressure) is fine AFAIK, but I wanted your reasoning for it. "I'm just doing it to add pressure" is literally all I was looking for. If you'd said instead "oh okay I need to stop doing that" like ShoesandHats has every five seconds, then there would be an issue. Simple test for simple scum, obviously bore no fruit.Mr.Zero: you seem to be harassing people to supplement your pressure. Do you think the potentially added scumhunting, if any, is enough to counteract the hate and votes it earns you?
Also, in your last post, which was fairly large, you make no effort to hunt scum. The only reason at this point that I don't have my vote on you is that ShoesandHats is using really bad arguments to try and force a lynch on you, because you seem scummy.
Is this babies first buss that I see going on, or do you have a good reason why Shoes is scum?
Scottzar: Is harassing people bad? Isn't a form of pressure? I pressured him even more alongside the vote. Is this wrong for me to do?
Sometimes i can slack off slightly and post a quick answer, however this does not mean that i can write out a massive argument with quotations and all. Simply because i have work do as well during class.Of course. You aren't my first suspicion, you are just reacting badly to my pressure. Wait until you have the time, and show us what else you have. Really, I just want to see your reasoned suspicion list and/or some pressure before day-end, because otherwise, if ShoesandHats flips town, you have no leads. And you're already the second highest on the lynching pole.
As a completely unrelated sidenote, the Pink is very hard to read, especially in a quote box. The orange, while readable, hurts my eyes. Maybe Green, Purple, and Brown?
I've been counting posts since the start, and it's always been my impression that Mr. Zero was getting so much attention because he's posted nearly twice as much as anyone else. (He's at 41 posts as of this moment. Next closest is xny/scottzar with 26 (21+5), and then Nerjin with 21)Well to be fair, his last post was one continuous line of 6 posts. He is fairly active, which is to be commended, but a fair number of his posts are not perfect examples of what to do in mafia.
At this point, I would support a Shorten. I'm satisfied with my vote, and there probably isn't anything that would change it unless someone made a truly spectacular slip. And, honestly, the day is just dragging on ... the posts are beginning to blur together and I feel like I'm not going to get anywhere new until we see somebody flip.Honestly, I'd probably shorten as well, but I'd like to see Mr.Zero's suspicions before the night phase goes through and someone dies.
Trve mafia players use the darkling theme. :PProfile > Look and Layout > Current Theme > (change)...Darkling.
This is beautiful. Always wanted that upper forum look.Trve mafia players use the darkling theme. :PProfile > Look and Layout > Current Theme > (change)...Darkling.
It makes the lower forums look like the upper forums!
:P
Honestly this was more asking for advice than scumhunting. From what I know, replacements are usually swamped with questions when they get in, though again, my experience is limited.@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?Mostly because I've been rather busy. Also because I didn't find xny to be terribly scummy, so I haven't had a strong urge to follow up on his replacement.
Only reason why I was concerned about you asking me questions is because no-one had really pressured me, and you were amongst the most egregious examples: an IC, had posted, no questions to me. I needed time to compose my thoughts about the Mr.Zero and ShoesandHats, so I applied basic pressure where I could.Shakerag: why no pressure on me? Why is Mr.Zero possibly town, and why am I? Shouldn't I be neutral because of how little chance to get a read you had?Why are you asking me that twice before I've had a chance to respond? Mr.Zero smells way more strongly of newbie to me than scum right now. I'm reading him as newbie town responding to getting dogpiled on. As for you, my townie impressions from xny are carrying over for now. If you act like a raging scumbucket, then my read will correspondingly change.
Why are you awfully concerned about me asking you questions and what my impression of you is?
I said thanks, and then I acknowledged my mistake. The reason I said thanks was that if he hadn't said that, I wouldn't have realized that I was wrong and I might have made more mistakes in the future.ShoesandHats, He was criticising you for not applying the advice or scumhunting. Your last two posts haven't questioned anyone or done any scumhunting. Posting without doing any scumhunting does not help town and is scummy.
Also, not posting would probably be bad for both, since activity wins games. But since the only way town can win the game is essentially through talking, I think it'd be more important for townies to post than scum.borno, Out of the 5 posts you've made this game, 3 of them have been excuses for not making a post. You haven't been posting often. Are you trying to imply that you're mafia?
Bold. It's rare to see anyone throw out a shorten anymore.Shakerag, Isn't that what you and Jim want, for D1 to be over? As ICs, why don't you suggest a shorten, or fewer extends?
I feel like Shoes may have been bussing but I cannot confirm this through any particular quote.Nerjin, If ShoesandHats and Nerjin are on a scumteam together, why are they each trying to bus the other?
-snip-I feel like Shoes may have been bussing but I cannot confirm this through any particular quote.Nerjin, If ShoesandHats and Nerjin are on a scumteam together, why are they each trying to bus the other?
I agree with a Shorten. I think we've got scum, and I doubt it'll be helpful to go on much longer without some confirmed information. The only person I feel hasn't talked enough is borno.
I'm going to assume you mean ShoesandHats and Mr. Zero. I couldn't answer for sure, it may be because they've both slipped up majorly and are trying to save their own lives. Weirder things have happened. Like I said I can't prove it for sure but it's entirely plausible.
-SNIP- Questions again why i defended myself instead of scumhunting/attacking.
Quote-Snip- Points i have summed up against shoesandhats.Beautiful. Other people have made these points, yes, but you still need to justify your vote. Voting someone without saying an argument simply because others have made one is usually bandwagoning; even if it is just a compilation of points from the thread, its important to explain your reasoning, so it can be attacked if necessary.QuoteWhat you will most probably notice is that these points already have been made on the board. That question is just plain stupid and shows that you are lazy and didn't bother to truly read everything and decided to have a go at someone and let him sum up the points for you.Actually, if you look at my first post, its half of my explanation for why ShoesandHats is scum. The second adds to this. As does the third. "
ShoesandHats: focusing one person with a very weak case, not fixing errors which they are called out on, "
It's not a completed, every-example-of-a-scumslip ever case, because he repeats the same mistake over and over.
QuoteSometimes i can slack off slightly and post a quick answer, however this does not mean that i can write out a massive argument with quotations and all. Simply because i have work do as well during class.Of course. You aren't my first suspicion, you are just reacting badly to my pressure. Wait until you have the time, and show us what else you have. Really, I just want to see your reasoned suspicion list and/or some pressure before day-end, because otherwise, if ShoesandHats flips town, you have no leads. And you're already the second highest on the lynching pole.
-snip-
Creating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Thus i concluded that it wasn't worth my time, since i was short on it.
-snip-
@captain ford: Please disregard that some of my posts were small notes or such. So like do -8, that would bring it closer to my true post count.
Captain Ford, Who is your second-most suspicious?
I'm going to assume you mean ShoesandHats and Mr. Zero. I couldn't answer for sure, it may be because they've both slipped up majorly and are trying to save their own lives. Weirder things have happened. Like I said I can't prove it for sure but it's entirely plausible.Oops.
Creating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Thus i concluded that it wasn't worth my time, since i was short on it.
What i could do as well was to defend myself. This is a bit more flexible. You can for example just answer questions, or answers questions which refer to different posts, etc. I chose for the first option, since that was the least time consuming thing that i could do.
Listen that's fine with me, but don't start harassing people just because they didn't have the time to perform the other choice cause of valid reasons and don't add lies to the fray while doing it as well.Mr.Zero, In my eyes, the issue is not that you were defending yourself, but that you prioritized defending yourself multiple times over scumhunting. If you truly didn't have time, you would have posted later. Instead, you choose to make posts that repeatedly do nothing but defend your actions. Doing so is an over-reaction to his questioning, and isn't scum-hunting. If you were sincerely out of time, why did you post defenses more than once?
You lie, You cherry-pick, you fake information , You harass people not for pressure, no, just harass them because they didn't do that what you would do. What do you have to say ? scum?Quotes please? From what I've seen, Scottzar has been pressuring you, and you've been over-reacting. When someone doesn't answer your question, the idea is to apply more pressure, not let it go or wait for an answer. You did this as well when I was semi-lurking, why shouldn't he do it if you're not listening to him?
-SNIP- Questions again why i defended myself instead of scumhunting/attacking.
Let's look at it like this. It was quite late, i wanted to go to sleep soon. However, i also wanted to do something with the mafia.
Creating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Thus i concluded that it wasn't worth my time, since i was short on it.
What i could do as well was to defend myself. This is a bit more flexible. You can for example just answer questions, or answers questions which refer to different posts, etc. I chose for the first option, since that was the least time consuming thing that i could do.
But like again, because i was short on time. I quoted the entire thing and added the orange text, i wouldn't have done it that way if i would have more time. But i didn't.
Does this sound more logical in your ears? Your WHOLE attack is biased on what YOU would do if you were in my position.
Listen that's fine with me, but don't start harassing people just because they didn't have the time to perform the other choice cause of valid reasons and don't add lies to the fray while doing it as well.
I never asked for a good case. Your suspicions list was like thirty words and required no shifting through the thread. Why couldn't you put that in the post from before?QuoteI've had SOMETHING on Xny, but unfortunately he got replaced by u. So right now, i'm left with a case against shoesandhast and leads here and there, but i cannot figure out something strong or something that isn;t utter bullshit.Then tell us the utter bullshit. If you notice anything, you can start to pressure someone on it. Maybe not vote them, but ask, Pressure is how you make people slip and crack.
#191 has no reasons in it?Quote-Snip- Points i have summed up against shoesandhats.Beautiful. Other people have made these points, yes, but you still need to justify your vote. Voting someone without saying an argument simply because others have made one is usually bandwagoning; even if it is just a compilation of points from the thread, its important to explain your reasoning, so it can be attacked if necessary.Quote-snip-.Actually, if you look at my first post, its half of my explanation for why ShoesandHats is scum. The second adds to this. As does the third. "
ShoesandHats: focusing one person with a very weak case, not fixing errors which they are called out on, "
It's not a completed, every-example-of-a-scumslip ever case, because he repeats the same mistake over and over.
First quote first. What i find amusing is how you unjustify the reasons, while the evidence is before you. You make it seem like Like i've had no participation in creating those reasons at all, it seems like you are specifically cherry picking that what you want to see. Rest doesn't matter.
Now for quote 2: Here you mention that in your first post, you gave a variety of reasons why shoesandhats is scum. However if we look at post #191 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3727327#msg3727327), we see nothing.... Now you could've have made a mistake, but if we look now at post #194 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3728353#msg3728353). We see... One reason! During the course since that post, you claim reasons which were already mentioned before your arrival one by one. Until we came to this point where, you dismissed my existence of helping to obtain those reasons.
I don't lie. Anything in a quote box is either the truth or a -snip-. Care to provide some evidence of where I lie (don't say "the part where you said I (Mr.Zero) admitted to defending being a higher priority than scumhunting" because unless you bring new evidence to the table, my point still stands.)QuoteSometimes i can slack off slightly and post a quick answer, however this does not mean that i can write out a massive argument with quotations and all. Simply because i have work do as well during class.Of course. You aren't my first suspicion, you are just reacting badly to my pressure. Wait until you have the time, and show us what else you have. Really, I just want to see your reasoned suspicion list and/or some pressure before day-end, because otherwise, if ShoesandHats flips town, you have no leads. And you're already the second highest on the lynching pole.
Here you ask me to reveal everything i have...again... how original. Didn't i like just do that? But for now il give you my suspicion list.
1. Shoesandhats for reasons stated.
2. Scottzar, reasons stated below.
3. Borno, low activity, doesn't post anything of value.
4. Rest, they make mistakes i guess or forgot to add variables.
Maybe your predecessor was better, cause you're doing all kinds of nasty things which town wouldn't.
You lie, You cherry-pick, you fake information , You harass people not for pressure, no, just harass them because they didn't do that what you would do. What do you have to say ? scum?
Because pressure doesn't magically go away because you're busy. It sits there, as a suspicion, until you have the time to address it.Guess what you need to do? Hint: its not address my pressure. You are doing that fine. It's address the root of my pressure, i.e. your lack of scumhunting.
Blugh.As Jim would say if that quote weren't totally out of context.
You lie, You cherry-pick, you fake information , You harass people not for pressure, no, just harass them because they didn't do that what you would do. What do you have to say ? scum?
Creating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Thus i concluded that it wasn't worth my time, since i was short on it.
4. Rest, they make mistakes i guess or forgot to add variables.
-snip-I'm going to assume you mean ShoesandHats and Mr. Zero. I couldn't answer for sure, it may be because they've both slipped up majorly and are trying to save their own lives. Weirder things have happened. Like I said I can't prove it for sure but it's entirely plausible.Oops.
Nerjin, If you can't show a single point of evidence, why bother posting it up? Also, why aren't you pressuring them more to get evidence?
-snip-
-snip-I was just throwing out a hypothesis to be honest. It is no more than that. What do I hope to achieve? Nothing honestly, I was just sharing a thought.
Nerjin:Quote from: NerjinThere are no interactions between the two that confirm this for me but they are relatively equal in suspicion for me. Mr. Zero for reasons I've stated time and time again and Shoes for his attempted buddying of me [it is buddying isn't it? Am I using the term wrong?] and his incredibly lazy reasoning on everything. As for direct contact between the two? I feel like Shoes may have been bussing but I cannot confirm this through any particular quote.You say there is no real specific reason why you think they are bussing, just that they are both scum and happen to be attacking each other. Arguments for them being scum have been thrown all over the place, however, your argument for them bussing has no real support.
-snip-
Why did you say that you think they are bussing if you aren't going to support the statement?
What did you hope to achieve by accusing them of this?
Unvoting for now. I think it's funny how we went from ganging up on Mr.Zero to ShoesandHats, and I want to look into that a bit more.
Massive answers incoming. I forgot the order of it, so it may seem off.
There are no interactions between the two that confirm this for me but they are relatively equal in suspicion for me. Mr. Zero for reasons I've stated time and time again and Shoes for his attempted buddying of me [it is buddying isn't it? Am I using the term wrong?] and his incredibly lazy reasoning on everything. As for direct contact between the two? I feel like Shoes may have been bussing but I cannot confirm this through any particular quote.
Mr.Zero is under pressure, says he has some (not very good) scumtells, and only has limited time to post -> he posts to defend himself instead of aiding in the scumhunting -> Therefore, he prioritises defending himself over scumhunting.
I didn't say it was terrible, did I? It's not town behaviour though, and he looks like he might give in to pressure by the end of the day. If shoes flips town and he (Mr.Zero) has no other cases because he was too busy defending himself, where does that leave him?Mr.Zero is under pressure, says he has some (not very good) scumtells, and only has limited time to post -> he posts to defend himself instead of aiding in the scumhunting -> Therefore, he prioritises defending himself over scumhunting.
This really isn't the crime you make it out to be.
More importantly, how would Shoes flipping town change your suspicion of Mr.Zero?
PFP:
Scottzar: Damn, you love your lists i see. Your "Mr.Zero has cracked is also quite wrong". Didn't you ask somewhere before that you wanted me to post my bullshit? If so, then how did you come to this conclusion so abruptly?
he looks like he might give in to pressure by the end of the dayI did ask for you to post your bullshit. About three real life days ago.
Captain Ford, Who is your second-most suspicious?
All this lurking means the scum are gonna win (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-viggo.gif)Let's all lurk, lurk, lurk on Day 1! [/tune]
Creating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Mr.Zero: still waiting on that attack post, esp. because you said you could make a strong one.QuoteCreating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
-Snip-@Mr.Zero: ERRR WRONG, 1112. Anyway, that has happened twice now. I'll try harder with a stronger case at the start. And trust me, it will happen in this mafia. And I'll be innocent again.
Trust is a commodity in here, and it is rarely present. Why are you so sure about your innocence claim?
Extend for the new old guy
ExtendIt's a little early for extensions, isn't it?
I'm curious, what in particular were you referring to here as 'not perfect examples of what to do in mafia'?QuoteI've been counting posts since the start, and it's always been my impression that Mr. Zero was getting so much attention because he's posted nearly twice as much as anyone else. (He's at 41 posts as of this moment. Next closest is xny/scottzar with 26 (21+5), and then Nerjin with 21)Well to be fair, his last post was one continuous line of 6 posts. He is fairly active, which is to be commended, but a fair number of his posts are not perfect examples of what to do in mafia.
That came out of nowhere. Why are you suddenly voting for Scottzar, Mr.Zero? So far your entire argument seems to be, "Scottzar is holding me to an unfair standard!"Mr.Zero
Creating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Thus i concluded that it wasn't worth my time, since i was short on it.
Scottzar: I'm sorry but if you expect (like Jim said) Earth shatteringly good attacks/arguments then i cannot provide that. Not because i don't want to, no because i can't. I don't want to shove stuff to my inexperience, but it seems like you are waiting for those mastermind attacks.Which i cannot simply provode. If you are able to make those then congratulations! Good for you.You implied you'd create a good attack if you had more time. Scottzar called you on it, and you instead voted without providing reasoning. This is a blatant OMGUS. What is your strongest piece of evidence against Scottzar? What scumtells does he show?
Btw why are you? Once again. Shifting the truth? (Things i've said, E.G not the content being the truth but just the text itself.). I did not , ever. say that i would create a "Good" attack. With focusing attention on good, you set your standard higher than me. In my eyes, i've literally thought.
"That's a good attack, not perfect, not brilliant, just a good attack. "
I love the way you totally dismiss every question I've asked and then proceed asking for an attack while claiming that i didn't do any or that i tried doing it.
Alright guys, back in the game. I have little time to post and when I do, post quality will BF severely reduced.kingfisher1112, Is it wise for you to take-over control if you know you'll not be able to post often and your posts will be low quality?
ExtendI love how you keep telling me I am 'shifting the truth' without quotes after I asked for examples. Nice. Give me something I can respond to (i.e. a question or actual, backed accusation) if you're going to throw your vote around, please.Mr.Zero: still waiting on that attack post, esp. because you said you could make a strong one.QuoteCreating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Scottzar: I'm sorry but if you expect (like Jim said) Earth shatteringly good attacks/arguments then i cannot provide that. Not because i don't want to, no because i can't. I don't want to shove stuff to my inexperience, but it seems like you are waiting for those mastermind attacks.Which i cannot simply provode. If you are able to make those then congratulations! Good for you.
Btw why are you? Once again. Shifting the truth? (Things i've said, E.G not the content being the truth but just the text itself.). I did not , ever. say that i would create a "Good" attack. With focusing attention on good, you set your standard higher than me. In my eyes, i've literally thought.
"That's a good attack, not perfect, not brilliant, just a good attack. "
I love the way you totally dismiss every question I've asked and then proceed asking for an attack while claiming that i didn't do any or that i tried doing it.
I panicked a little when I saw that we had less than two days, when, for example, Shakerag hadn't posted for 98 hours, and he in particular had said he was getting noobtown feelings from Mr.Zero as opposed to noobscum feelings. I want to have everyone take the chance to give their reasoning on whoever ends up being lynched/ they end up voting, and in a game with as much inactivity as this, 30 hours might not be enough.Extend for the new old guyExtendIt's a little early for extensions, isn't it?
Hard examples include things like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3738757#msg3738757)and this, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3731398#msg3731398) but he posts a lot of short, fairly meaningless posts which only serve to answer a single question or excuse him until he has more time, which is basically just trying to look like he has a reason to wait, even though no-one would blame him for having work/school/gym/whatever get in the way of a random forum game.I'm curious, what in particular were you referring to here as 'not perfect examples of what to do in mafia'?QuoteI've been counting posts since the start, and it's always been my impression that Mr. Zero was getting so much attention because he's posted nearly twice as much as anyone else. (He's at 41 posts as of this moment. Next closest is xny/scottzar with 26 (21+5), and then Nerjin with 21)Well to be fair, his last post was one continuous line of 6 posts. He is fairly active, which is to be commended, but a fair number of his posts are not perfect examples of what to do in mafia.
30 hours? At the moment, there's just under 47 hours left ...-snip-I panicked a little when I saw that we had less than two days, when, for example, Shakerag hadn't posted for 98 hours, and he in particular had said he was getting noobtown feelings from Mr.Zero as opposed to noobscum feelings. I want to have everyone take the chance to give their reasoning on whoever ends up being lynched/ they end up voting, and in a game with as much inactivity as this, 30 hours might not be enough.
It's a little early for extensions, isn't it?
A number of other players have posted PFP messages too, even to deal with single questions, (this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3744013#msg3744013) by Shakerag comes to mind).-snip-Hard examples include things like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3738757#msg3738757)and this, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3731398#msg3731398) but he posts a lot of short, fairly meaningless posts which only serve to answer a single question or excuse him until he has more time, which is basically just trying to look like he has a reason to wait, even though no-one would blame him for having work/school/gym/whatever get in the way of a random forum game.
I'm curious, what in particular were you referring to here as 'not perfect examples of what to do in mafia'?
In essence, by excusing himself with short PFP sentences, he tries to look more town which doesn't really accomplish anything.
Facepalm. I just realised when I read this post I was comparing the time he said with my local time. There's like a 12 - 16 hour difference, I forget.
30 hours? At the moment, there's just under 47 hours left ...
And, actually, that does seem short. If Tuesday was supposed to be night, then the day should be ending on Friday, not Thursday. Maybe Urist was off by a day?
What you seem to be saying is that he seems to be deliberately trying to seem busy, and you find this suspicious.Sort of. He's posting deliberately for us to stop pressuring him until he gets the chance to post, even though there's no point stacking extra pressure on him anyway if he doesn't answer the questions.
Scottzar and Captain Ford, What are your reasons for voting Mr.Zero? Each of you posted one-liners before voting him.I've been pressuring him a lot, as you know, and the root of the pressure hasn't yet been addressed. He needs to scumhunt. He reacted badly, to my pressure at least three separate times: #214 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3735301#msg3735301), #225 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3731970#msg3731970), and #210 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3729944#msg3729944).
Scottzar and Captain Ford, What are your reasons for voting Mr.Zero? Each of you posted one-liners before voting him.
Sorry, but at this moment i have a 2 projects and learning for some tests which are important for me. I won't be able to post till the weekend.Well, this definitely calls for an Extend.
Honestly this was more asking for advice than scumhunting. From what I know, replacements are usually swamped with questions when they get in, though again, my experience is limited.[For the first point, yes, sometimes replacements get swamped with questions. That's fairly normal. I'm not sure what advice you're looking for. If you get asked questions, then you get asked questions. Asking people to ask you questions isn't scummy per se, but comes across as a bit odd, IMO.]
[...]
@Shakerag: Do you think, if the day goes through without shortening, anything will be achieved/changed? The same slips and arguments keep coming up as far as I can see.
Shakerag, Isn't that what you and Jim want, for D1 to be over? As ICs, why don't you suggest a shorten, or fewer extends?[What we want is for you all to learn. If that takes a short D1 or a long D1 so be it. Beginner's games often have a very lengthy D1, and I suppose that it is ... painful for Mr. Groovester to have to watch newbies flail about for that long. Also, I throw out extends because either I need them or it seems like a number of players could use one. I don't think I'd shorten unless it seemed like a majority already were calling for it.]
Reading back, nothing terribly conclusive. I didn't see anything in the vote shifting specifically to cause my scumdar to ping.Unvoting for now. I think it's funny how we went from ganging up on Mr.Zero to ShoesandHats, and I want to look into that a bit more.
This was several days ago. Thoughts about this since then?
Shakerag: you said your vote wouldn't change anything. I assume you were voting for ShoesandHats, because you said you found him scummy?I wasn't voting at day end. I said my vote wouldn't have changed anything, because there was a two-vote gap between the highest and second-highest players. I didn't get the time in I wanted for a full re-read, and some of ShoesandHat's later posts started to make me question how scummy he was, so I didn't want to just slap my vote on him.
If not, who and what for?
Nabic: What's your read on kingfisher1112? If it's not strong, why aren't you questioning him?It's neutral; I need more posts from him. Haven't been questioning him because he said he'd post more later.
Nabic: I was going to sit out till next week, but Zombie Urist replaced me in immediatly. Woops. And my reads arent very good, but Mr Zero seems rather like me, in the sense he made brash, bold claims, didn't back em up and then got the hammer. I'm watching him. Shake is lurk lurk. Those are my reads. More soon, I've gotta read.Emphasis mine.
Scottzar: In #225 you were stating Mr.Zero didn't justify his vote. Elaborate? Also, what did you think about Jim's response to you in #246?I was just talking about in general then. My exact line was, as you know,
Beautiful. Other people have made these points, yes, but you still need to justify your vote. Voting someone without saying an argument simply because others have made one is usually bandwagoning; even if it is just a compilation of points from the thread, its important to explain your reasoning, so it can be attacked if necessary.Maybe I failed to express myself properly, because the section after I said 'Beautiful' was just in general; I was explaining my motives for asking his reasoning on ShoesandHats, because he called me out for asking his reasoning in the post I quoted, (though not in a part that I quoted) here:
What you will most probably notice is that these points already have been made on the board. That question is just plain stupid and shows that you are lazy and didn't bother to truly read everything and decided to have a go at someone and let him sum up the points for you.
When I first read it I thought "well this means neither IC really thinks Mr.Zero is scum, his case on ShoesandHats is solid, and if he scumhunted more (i.e. at all after ShoesandHats) he would look like a perfect town"More importantly, how would Shoes flipping town change your suspicion of Mr.Zero?It wouldn't affect my read on him very much.
Either IC, If you were in ShoesandHats's position, would you have claimed Town Doctor before getting lynched?Would your answer change if you were a cop?
Shakerag Why the massive lurk bro? also, you contributed very little in Shoes Vs. Mr Zero. In fact you stuck with your vote on Captain Ford. Tell me, What were you trying to achieve?As I stated at least more than once, I've been rather busy RL. Mr.Zero struck me as newbtown moreso than scummy, and Shoes I was feeling more iffy about as the day came to a close. First of all, I didn't have a vote in at day end, and secondly even if I had kept my vote on CF, why would that matter? If he was the person I thought was most scummy, then why should I have changed my vote to Mr.Zero or ShoesandHats?
And to answer your question, I did not call Zero scum.
Either IC, If you were in ShoesandHats's position, would you have claimed Town Doctor before getting lynched?Yes. What would be the reason not to?
Later I thought "The IC's are just being nice to Mr.Zero because he appears to be a noob-town, but he doesn't scumhunt despite me telling him to, so I should keep pressuring him."We're not here to be nice; we're here to teach. I'm not going to go easy on someone just because they're a newbie. I think it's safe to say the same holds true for Jim as well. If I need to beat a lesson into you with a shovel, so be it. We may be pleasant (as opposed to raging dickbags), but "being nice" to someone isn't going to teach them anything, so you can dismiss that thought.
As an addendum to nabic's question:No. Again, what reason is there to not claim?QuoteEither IC, If you were in ShoesandHats's position, would you have claimed Town Doctor before getting lynched?Would your answer change if you were a cop?
Scottzar: It's a pressure vote. Really, if you can't realise that then herp derp for you.A read on a replaced player I can maybe sort of see, but why give a read on Nerjin?
Also, please note my entire Fucking game is gonna be PFP.
Also, Reads!
Nerjin: Seems very desperate to either:
A: Get things over and done with or
B: Not post anything he doesn't exactly have to.
Meh. He could flip either really.
[...]
Xny: Meh. Isn't standing out.
[...]
Scottzar: It's a pressure vote. Really, if you can't realise that then herp derp for you.I can understand a pressure vote, but unusually you attach it to more than one question unless they haven't answered you for like 50 hours.
Scottzar: Doesn't know what a pressure vote is.
'Being nice' in this case means not attacking him constantly for making basic slips. For example, in the Wild West Mafia I referenced when I subbed in, shark drew a massive amount of pressure because he had made a massive a noob (but not scum) mistake; the difference here is that most if not all of the new players have made mistakes which are easy to pick up on.Later I thought "The IC's are just being nice to Mr.Zero because he appears to be a noob-town, but he doesn't scumhunt despite me telling him to, so I should keep pressuring him."We're not here to be nice; we're here to teach. I'm not going to go easy on someone just because they're a newbie. I think it's safe to say the same holds true for Jim as well. If I need to beat a lesson into you with a shovel, so be it. We may be pleasant (as opposed to raging dickbags), but "being nice" to someone isn't going to teach them anything, so you can dismiss that thought.
Just asking. In EpicMafia, which I used to play, anyone who claimed a role while under pressure would usually get a 90% vote majority in seconds.As an addendum to nabic's question:No. Again, what reason is there to not claim?QuoteEither IC, If you were in ShoesandHats's position, would you have claimed Town Doctor before getting lynched?Would your answer change if you were a cop?
Although my initial intuition was to claim, it could seem like he's rolefishing for the actual doctor as mafia, making him more likely to get voted off. Wouldn't mafia be just as likely to claim a power role to out the real one? Also, considering that there is no doctor, would you come out tomorrow even if you could only confirm 2 townies as cop?Either IC, If you were in ShoesandHats's position, would you have claimed Town Doctor before getting lynched?Yes. What would be the reason not to?
Can't pressure Nerjin now for being lazy and bandwagoning on arguments from ages ago.
I don't want to shove stuff to my inexperience, but it seems like you are waiting for those mastermind attacks.
Either IC, If you were in ShoesandHats's position, would you have claimed Town Doctor before getting lynched?
As an addendum to nabic's question:QuoteEither IC, If you were in ShoesandHats's position, would you have claimed Town Doctor before getting lynched?Would your answer change if you were a cop?
Jim Groovester, Has your read on Mr.Zero changed since you last posted it?
Jim: What's your read on Nabic and Scottzar?
We're not here to be nice; we're here to teach. I'm not going to go easy on someone just because they're a newbie. I think it's safe to say the same holds true for Jim as well. If I need to beat a lesson into you with a shovel, so be it. We may be pleasant (as opposed to raging dickbags), but "being nice" to someone isn't going to teach them anything, so you can dismiss that thought.
Because at that time I had only one read (Mr.Zero) and its much more shaky than the case on ShoesandHats. With Nerjin alive I would have been pressuring him while voting Mr.Zero, and the two of them have been using short, lazy arguments. I could easily visualise the two of them as a scumteam, whereas, say, ShoesandHats and Mr.Zero wouldn't make much sense without blatant slips, because Zero had given a strong case against Shoes. Shoes/Nerjin I could see, and would probably have been the case I would be making had shoes flipped scum.Can't pressure Nerjin now for being lazy and bandwagoning on arguments from ages ago.
Why mention this? It almost seems like you're sad about this.
So, essentially, you're sad that your scumteam theory didn't pan out and that you didn't get the chance to really put Nerjin through the ringer, even though he was actually town.Partially, but also because out of the three people I had a reason to believe were scum (Mr.Zero, Nerjin and ShoesandHats), 2 have flipped town and that leaves me with a completely unaccounted for second scum who I (at that time) had no leads on.
Captain Ford, Throughout the entire game you've only addressed borno once, and haven't even acknowledged kingfisher1112 since he subbed back in. Why? What's your read on kingfisher1112/borno?
Captain Ford: So what did you learn from going over Mr.Zero's posts?
Oh no. :o
Mr. Zero and Kingfisher1112 are both up for replacement.
Neither of them have really been around long enough to really be questioned. It's hard to get a read on somebody when they've done so little posting.Captain Ford Throughout the entirety of the game, you've asked kingfisher1112/borno one question. If you didn't have any read on the player, why didn't you ask the replacement any questions? Didn't borno stick around long enough in D1? It looks like you were avoiding them, especially since you didn't ask either replacement a single question.
But it doesn't strike me as scummy. I would think that someone playing scum would put more effort/have more interest in the game.
He's also kind of annoying in how zealous he think everyone should be in scumhunting, but this does not affect my read on him.I'd like some clarification about this statement. Do you think people are already scumhunting perfectly fine, and he's pushing them to hunt too hard? Isn't it a good thing for him to promote activity, or am I missing something?
As I stated at least more than once, I've been rather busy RL. Mr.Zero struck me as newbtown moreso than scummy, and Shoes I was feeling more iffy about as the day came to a close. First of all, I didn't have a vote in at day end, and secondly even if I had kept my vote on CF, why would that matter? If he was the person I thought was most scummy, then why should I have changed my vote to Mr.Zero or ShoesandHats?Hypothetical. If you thought ShoesandHats was town, and Captain Ford scum towards D1 end, would you have pushed for a further extension and a Captain Ford lynch?
All this lurking means the scum are gonna win (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-viggo.gif)
I've been gone for a little while, but I'll replace in if you would have me, ZU.((Yay! Flandre is back! Let her in! Let her in! Let her in to absolve her leave of any scumminess! :P))
I'm not sure how to properly apologise for the last game I was a part of (and thoroughly ruined by leaving), but I still feel bad and I am really sorry.
So, essentially, you're sad that your scumteam theory didn't pan out and that you didn't get the chance to really put Nerjin through the ringer, even though he was actually town.Partially, but also because out of the three people I had a reason to believe were scum (Mr.Zero, Nerjin and ShoesandHats), 2 have flipped town and that leaves me with a completely unaccounted for second scum who I (at that time) had no leads on.
Neither of them have really been around long enough to really be questioned. It's hard to get a read on somebody when they've done so little posting.Captain Ford Throughout the entirety of the game, you've asked kingfisher1112/borno one question. If you didn't have any read on the player, why didn't you ask the replacement any questions? Didn't borno stick around long enough in D1? It looks like you were avoiding them, especially since you didn't ask either replacement a single question.
But it doesn't strike me as scummy. I would think that someone playing scum would put more effort/have more interest in the game.
In your last statement you say what scum "would" do. However, without extenuating circumstances, a lack of activity is generally considered lurking. Why do you think this lack of activity is a town or non-scum read? Wouldn't scum want the least attention?
He's also kind of annoying in how zealous he think everyone should be in scumhunting, but this does not affect my read on him.I'd like some clarification about this statement. Do you think people are already scumhunting perfectly fine, and he's pushing them to hunt too hard? Isn't it a good thing for him to promote activity, or am I missing something?
When you have no suspicions on anyone, pick someone at random (I MEAN random.. some use Random.org for this!), take a glance as their past posts, and talk to them, usually with a vote. The goal is not to kill but to learn more about them. The vote is a "Pressure Vote", simply used to make sure they don't ignore you.Out of the 4 other players who were not being replaced, I chose him because I've got a weak read at best on him. Additionally, his most recent post and vote felt "off" to me. Although I didn't pick at random, Captain Ford (among others) hasn't been posting much in the way of scumhunting. In D2, he hasn't done anything except argue against an extension, and ask a few questions to Mr.Zero and Scottzar.
And you should not be annoyed that the scum team killed one of your suspects, you should be overjoyed. They did your work for you and you didn't even have to waste a lynch on them.I'm spending far too long on this random question, but still.
'Being nice' in this case means not attacking him constantly for making basic slips. For example, in the Wild West Mafia I referenced when I subbed in, shark drew a massive amount of pressure because he had made a massive a noob (but not scum) mistake; the difference here is that most if not all of the new players have made mistakes which are easy to pick up on.Okay, I'm not 100% sure if I'm following you, but my response is thus: Yes, you're all making mistakes left and right, and Jim or I or any IC could likely drive a lynch on any player of our choosing if we were so inclined. If we see newbslips we try to correct them (or let the player realized what they did wrong on thier own). If we see scumslips, then we vote and pressure. Sometimes I like to take a bit more "hands off" approach and let the players work things out for themselves and leave the analysis to post-game. Experience being the best teacher and all that.
Also you seemed to be intentionally giving him an easy time, because you read him as town whereas you read others (say, Nabic) as neutral.
Just asking. In EpicMafia, which I used to play, anyone who claimed a role while under pressure would usually get a 90% vote majority in seconds.[From what I understand from the other bay12ers, EpicMafia is ... a rather unique beast unto itself. I think we tend to be a bit more cautious here in general. Scum are less likely to counter-fakeclaim unless it's milo/lylo. Obviously this is not a hard and fast rule. Sometimes claiming while being fitted for the noose will buy you some breathing room, sometimes not. Of course, scum usually off the claiming player that night, but at least you might give town a shot at lynching someone worthwhile.]
In forum mafia, like this, if the cop/doctor claims, is it usual for scum to counter claim immediately, and the inverse true?
Yeah, that's a possibility. I don't think I've seen that happen as often, and certianly not very often in BMs. The problem with fakeclaiming is that once anything throws doubt on your claim (like the real cop/doctor dying), you get an insta-lynch on the fakeclaimer. Hence why I tend to see scum only fakeclaim when it's either very late game or everyone's massclaiming.Although my initial intuition was to claim, it could seem like he's rolefishing for the actual doctor as mafia, making him more likely to get voted off. Wouldn't mafia be just as likely to claim a power role to out the real one? Also, considering that there is no doctor, would you come out tomorrow even if you could only confirm 2 townies as cop?Either IC, If you were in ShoesandHats's position, would you have claimed Town Doctor before getting lynched?Yes. What would be the reason not to?
Hypothetical. If you thought ShoesandHats was town, and Captain Ford scum towards D1 end, would you have pushed for a further extension and a Captain Ford lynch?Assuming the votes were the same? Likely not. It would have been a rather ... monumental effort to try and swing that many votes on my target. Especially D1, when we still have breathing room before milo/lylo. Town mislynch on D1 is ... highly common, especially in BMs. However, this is not a tragedy, because now we have some solid info to work from. Suspicious interactions between those who flipped town and other players can be safely dropped, and a re-analysis of reasons for voting someone who flipped town can be had.
I've been gone for a little while, but I'll replace in if you would have me, ZU.[You're not the worst offender that we've kept around.]
I'm not sure how to properly apologise for the last game I was a part of (and thoroughly ruined by leaving), but I still feel bad and I am really sorry.
As a result, he finds himself at the center of a lot of misunderstandings, both because his words are a mess and he doesn't understand what was being said in the first place.Captain Ford ... so do you think Mr.Zero was indeed scum then, or "at the center of a lot of misunderstandings"?
Flandre: Mr.Zero was very active. Do you think this contributed to his suspiciousness in a positive or negative manner? Will you be similarly active?Judging by his activity alone, the amount of material Mr.Zero provided made him an easy target to question. Honestly, I don't think I will be quite as active as he was, considering how hard that would be to do!
Flandre, What do you think of Mr.Zero's suspicions towards Scottzar? Who do you currently find most suspicious?From what I can tell, Mr.Zero's vote was spontaneous and lacking support. Up until that point, Mr.Zero maintained mostly a defensive posture against Scottzar, so I can't really see it as anything but an OMGUS.
Out of the 4 other players who were not being replaced, I chose him because I've got a weak read at best on him. Additionally, his most recent post and vote felt "off" to me. Although I didn't pick at random, Captain Ford (among others) hasn't been posting much in the way of scumhunting. In D2, he hasn't done anything except argue against an extension, and ask a few questions to Mr.Zero and Scottzar.I'd just like to point out that I didn't argue against the extension. I realized there was confusion over the deadline and sought to point it out.
I can see a whole lot more Extensions in our future...
Captain Ford Throughout the entirety of the game, you've asked kingfisher1112/borno one question. If you didn't have any read on the player, why didn't you ask the replacement any questions? Didn't borno stick around long enough in D1? It looks like you were avoiding them, especially since you didn't ask either replacement a single question.
In your last statement you say what scum "would" do. However, without extenuating circumstances, a lack of activity is generally considered lurking. Why do you think this lack of activity is a town or non-scum read? Wouldn't scum want the least attention?
As a result, he finds himself at the center of a lot of misunderstandings, both because his words are a mess and he doesn't understand what was being said in the first place.Captain Ford ... so do you think Mr.Zero was indeed scum then, or "at the center of a lot of misunderstandings"?
Does Mr.Zero replacing out change your willingness to vote?
Flandre, can you speak to why your predecessor used his inexperience as a shield when he really shouldn't have? Because at the time I'm writing this he would have been my top suspect (in a field of weak suspects) had he not been replaced.The longer I consider Mr. Zero's forward playstyle, the easier it is for me to believe that it was a large bite for him to swallow. He made the poor choice of cropdusting his scrutiny upon everyone in the room, and responded poorly when the masses retaliated with counterarguments. I can only guess that shunting his weak claim (on making good attacks) to inexperience was his way of responding to...
Mr.Zero: still waiting on that attack post, esp. because you said you could make a strong one....without explicitly stating that he lacked any deep, focused arguments.QuoteCreating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Kingfisher1112:
Captain Ford [2]: Nabic, Shakerag
Flandre [1]: Scottzar
Nabic:
scottzar:
Jim Groovester:
Shakerag:
Not voting: Kingfisher1112, Jim Groovester, Flandre, Captain Ford
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Will keep that in mind next time.
- Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a trainwreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
Scottzar: Appears to be lurking quite badly and voted Mr. Zero who at the time was voting Captain Ford. - I'd like a reason for this.You're right, I have been lurking badly. I was waiting for Flandre to post and you to be replaced in, because an extension had just been passed so I could wait, and then the day magically ended.
When I cast my vote, I was hoping to evoke an immediate reaction. I didn't expect Mr.Zero to suddenly become busy. So that didn't work. Unvote.I'll be honest, and say that in retrospect, Captain Ford was scummier than I thought, but I still would have Mr.Zero was more likely to be scum before CF flipped.
Shakerag was voted by Captain, who flipped mafia. Seems fairly clear, Groovester on the other hand does not have this advantage on their side.Shakerag also voted CF before CF voted Shakerag; D1 Shakerag didn't end up voting because he unvoted off of CF towards day end. See, what you are saying here doesn't stand up to logic, as if Shakerag and CF were a scumteam, wouldn't pressuring each other to look like town be logical?
Also voted Captain ford when there was no bandwagon, not something a mafia would usually do.Once again, I really dislike how you assume scum should always do things which are classically scummy, when in reality it is the opposite; scum want to look like town more than anything else, so they should do things town normally does, not what scum 'usually do'.
Scottzar: Are you going to continue to vote for Flandre? If so, re-state your case please.
This is called WIFOM. If they buss each other, they look town. Ergo, scum buss and thus anyone in a deep arguement is suspicious. Hence, scum should avoid bussing. Thus, bussing is un-scum-like, and scum should always buss. -> etc. etc.
Shakerag Why the massive lurk bro? also, you contributed very little in Shoes Vs. Mr Zero. In fact you stuck with your vote on Captain Ford. Tell me, What were you trying to achieve?
As I stated at least more than once, I've been rather busy RL. Mr.Zero struck me as newbtown moreso than scummy, and Shoes I was feeling more iffy about as the day came to a close. First of all, I didn't have a vote in at day end, and secondly even if I had kept my vote on CF, why would that matter? If he was the person I thought was most scummy, then why should I have changed my vote to Mr.Zero or ShoesandHats
I'm here. I didn't end the day with a vote because I got too busy to re-read to the extent that I wanted to. Not that it would have made a difference, looking at the day end vote tallies. I'll try and squeeze in something more today/tonight, because I'll be gone all day tomorrow.
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In this situation, the easy option would be to vote shoes or zero, adding in confusing comments to dissuade town but he was resilient in his 'scumhunt' and would not flip to those he thought were townish. - Even when it meant he would stand outside of the crowd in the spotlight.
Scottzar: Briefly, What are your reads?Order of suspicions + reasons:
I can agree with an absence of leads, but I must ask:So, essentially, you're sad that your scumteam theory didn't pan out and that you didn't get the chance to really put Nerjin through the ringer, even though he was actually town.Partially, but also because out of the three people I had a reason to believe were scum (Mr.Zero, Nerjin and ShoesandHats), 2 have flipped town and that leaves me with a completely unaccounted for second scum who I (at that time) had no leads on.
MrCelt: Between all the replaces, there have been far too few posts of substance. Kingfisher also threw around attacks like confetti and reacted badly when asked to justify them. Maybe its just how he instantly backed off when questioned, which may or may not have been related to the question at all, but he really did seem to be playing very lazily and aggressively.
Did Ford's vote on Shakerag compel you into thinking that Shakerag was town? With Jim and Shakerag in opposition (as you say), does this have any influence on your read of Jim as well?
With Jim and Shakerag in opposition, I definitely am able to get a better read off on Jim, but nothing that suggests him being mafia, however, given the experience of the two players, it is not impossible they are two mafia working together to effectively bus.Ford died and flipped scum, so we know this isn't the case.
With Jim and Shakerag in opposition, I definitely am able to get a better read off on Jim, but nothing that suggests him being mafia, however, given the experience of the two players, it is not impossible they are two mafia working together to effectively bus.Ford died and flipped scum, so we know this isn't the case.
Yeppers.With Jim and Shakerag in opposition, I definitely am able to get a better read off on Jim, but nothing that suggests him being mafia, however, given the experience of the two players, it is not impossible they are two mafia working together to effectively bus.Ford died and flipped scum, so we know this isn't the case.
I'm not sure I understand - Are there only two scum in the game, CF being one?
Yeppers.With Jim and Shakerag in opposition, I definitely am able to get a better read off on Jim, but nothing that suggests him being mafia, however, given the experience of the two players, it is not impossible they are two mafia working together to effectively bus.Ford died and flipped scum, so we know this isn't the case.
I'm not sure I understand - Are there only two scum in the game, CF being one?
Mr. Groovester: I know you have maths up the butt, however your D2 performance was ... sub-par. You didn't vote, and you barely scumhunted. Get your apron and spatula handy, because I want to see you start grilling.
Also voted Captain ford when there was no bandwagon, not something a mafia would usually do.
G'damn it. It was a double post, what am I to do?
In this situation, the easy option would be to vote shoes or zero, adding in confusing comments to dissuade town but he was resilient in his 'scumhunt' and would not flip to those he thought were townish. - Even when it meant he would stand outside of the crowd in the spotlight.
I'm just going to say the following: it was late at day, very near end. Unless he uncovered a new slip, it would have appeared bandwagon-y to jump on someone (i.e. Shoes). If he was scum, he'd locked himself into a hole by being too busy to switch to join a bandwagon before it was apparent what it was.
He couldn't vote Zero, because that would cause a D1 NL, where NL's outside of MYLO or role-heavy decision making are amazingly pro-scum, especially on D1 due to lack of reads; forcing a tie would destroy his cover.
Also, again, you're giving meta-reasons as to why you think he is town. But if he was scum, he'd be acting in whatever way makes him appear the most town, regardless.
For what it's worth, my read on Shakerag is Town; he's clearly busy, but contributes heavily when he posts.
Shakerag: has been leading the town well with his available time, and picking up on slips which others miss. Either he is flawlessly bussing scum who is going to stomp the town, or he is the hero we all deserve.
Jim: Slightly scummy. You are an experienced player and an IC, like Shakerag, so it's hard for me to get a decent read on you. It seems a little outside of the norm for you to withhold your vote, though, so that has some influence.
You did say earlier that Mr. Zero was your premier suspect in a pool of weak suspects. Do you have any suspicions other than with Mr. Zero and I? On another note, can it be a wise approach to town-hunt rather than scumhunt (ie. looking for town-tells and deducing scum through deduction) in difficult games such as these?
He said that by drawing suspicion to himself, Shakerag appeared to be town. I was just pointing out that town-tells are illogical because scum try to make them.
In this situation, the easy option would be to vote shoes or zero, adding in confusing comments to dissuade town but he was resilient in his 'scumhunt' and would not flip to those he thought were townish. - Even when it meant he would stand outside of the crowd in the spotlight.
I'm just going to say the following: it was late at day, very near end. Unless he uncovered a new slip, it would have appeared bandwagon-y to jump on someone (i.e. Shoes). If he was scum, he'd locked himself into a hole by being too busy to switch to join a bandwagon before it was apparent what it was.
He couldn't vote Zero, because that would cause a D1 NL, where NL's outside of MYLO or role-heavy decision making are amazingly pro-scum, especially on D1 due to lack of reads; forcing a tie would destroy his cover.
Also, again, you're giving meta-reasons as to why you think he is town. But if he was scum, he'd be acting in whatever way makes him appear the most town, regardless.
For what it's worth, my read on Shakerag is Town; he's clearly busy, but contributes heavily when he posts.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make or why this is worth arguing about.
Yes, indeed, now that I've checked old posts. Shakerag seems far too town. He also spent all of his time on CF, for strange reasons. I really should have picked up on this earlier.Shakerag: has been leading the town well with his available time, and picking up on slips which others miss. Either he is flawlessly bussing scum who is going to stomp the town, or he is the hero we all deserve.
Do you have anything bad to say about Shakerag?
Someone looking too town isn't a scumtell, it's a fallacy. In fact, we call it the Too Town Fallacy.Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough, but he is performing actions which look townie but require a scums knowledge.
It is impossible for the qualities that make a player appear town to implicate that player as scum. It just doesn't make any sense.
Regardless, this is a reversal of your previous position on Shakerag, because one post prior to the one you just made, you declared you thought he was town and had nothing but glowing things to say about his skill. Now, you suspect him, even committing the Too Town Fallacy to do it.
Looks like someone changed their opinion because they were worried they didn't want to look like they were buddying. Isn't that right, Scottzar?
Nerjin, If you were scum, and your head was on the chopping block, would you out your partner to save yourself?Then unvoted from RVS:
Captain Ford, you've been voting Nerjin since your first post this game. Why?
Random vote. I always meant to follow it up but never found the time. Honestly, I'm just having a lot of difficulty parsing everything that's going on. So I ended up putting together a spreadsheet to help me get a handle on it, and in the process noticed that kingfisher hadn't participated at all. So I called him out on it before I had to leave for class yesterday, and, well...Sadly, I have no means with which to post for the next two weeks.
Request replacement.
... that happened.
I need to get some work done today before class, after which I'll make an effort to post tonight. I'm busy tomorrow evening, too, so I'll likely miss the end of the day unless there's another extension.
As for Nerjin, hmm... you're off the hook ... for now. Unvote
Captain Ford: What's stopping you from following up on Nerjin?
Unvoting for now. I think it's funny how we went from ganging up on Mr.Zero to ShoesandHats, and I want to look into that a bit more.
Captain Ford ... so do you think Mr.Zero was indeed scum then, or "at the center of a lot of misunderstandings"?
Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten
Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.QuoteVotes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten
[MrCelt, you did read the opening post in full, yes?]
Busy morning; working on a post.
I'm sorry everyone, I fucked up day end. I missed Scottzar's extension request, so Captain Ford shouldn't have been lynched yesterday
Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.QuoteVotes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten
[MrCelt, you did read the opening post in full, yes?]
Busy morning; working on a post.
Yeah. - It says bold. Nothing about not having it red. Red is colourful.
Extension requests: 0
EXTEND: we need more time, noteably for flandre.
The Cop has not yet outed or died. They're probably lying low with a bunch of innocents. - I personally have a cop read, but I will not out it.[There is no guarantee that a cop role is in this game.]
What was your impression of Kingfisher/Borno?That neither one can stick around in a game to save his life. Outside of that, no worthwhile read. Here's to hoping MrCelt sticks around long enough for me to establish one.
[Just as a general note and a response to Flandre, this is something that I will do every so often. I think a good example is BM34 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3458532#msg3458532).][...]I can't recommend townhunting since it's not something I know how to do nor have I tried it. Actively looking for the people you don't need to lynch doesn't sound like that great of a strategy to me.
[...]On another note, can it be a wise approach to town-hunt rather than scumhunt (ie. looking for town-tells and deducing scum through deduction) in difficult games such as these?
Shakerag: is this summary of events correct? Is there anything you want to add?Without bothering to read back specifically, that looks generally right to me. From what I remember (again, without rereading in detail), I didn't have any terribly strong case on CF on D2. While I didn't peg him as scum, I didn't get much of a town read off of him. Outside of a very slight gut feeling, I mostly voted him for pressure and to see if I could get a stronger read on him one way or another.
Can you give me a summary of your case (if any) on Captain Ford from D2?
Jim: Your opinion on MrCelt, please. I haven't got a good read on him in comparison to others, and his previous incarnations barely posted.
Further, do you find Shakerag scummy at all? How much is their pressure vote on you influencing this decision, if at all?
Scottzar: Assuming that I'm scum, what reasons do you believe I would have had for bussing my partner on D2?You didn't expect the day to cut out short, and thus were only 'pressuring' him. When he answered you, you could easily unvote, and because he would likely be lynched before you, you would look clean because you had a healthy but not excessive interaction with him.
As an aside, whether his unvoting was a "logical town action" or not is irrelevant. Scum are trying to do "logcal town actions" as well, so if you call someone on a "logical town action" but they panic or do something scummy, then I'd consider that a vote well placed.By "logical town action" I meant that it wasn't explicitly a scumslip. This was because he unvoted out of the blue, which is in general pretty fishy if unjustified, but justified in this case because it was an old RVS vote.
Also, if I hadn't bothered to unvote by the end of D1 and kept my vote on CF, would that have changed anything?
Scottzar: You're voting Jim. What's your justification?How did you arrive at this conclusion?
Current vote count:Made size 18 for my emphasis.
MrCelt:
Flandre:
scottzar [1]: Jim Groovester
Jim Groovester [1]: Shakerag
Shakerag:
Not voting: MrCelt, Flandre, scottzar
Shakerag then took this as a reason to vote, despite it being a logical action from a town perspective; CF was putting pressure elsewhere instead.Captain Ford: What's stopping you from following up on Nerjin?
I can't see how CF possibly slipped in unvoting, he maybe he should have put pressure on Nerjin anyway but Shakerag didn't call him out on that. Instead, he called him out on not following him up; but CF never had a case on Nerjin.
Random vote. I always meant to follow it up but never found the time.
This conveniently didn't attach him to the doctor lynch, and he could remain neutral on Mr.Zero because it would have been a tie if he voted that way.
Ergo, his attacks on CF were largely unsubstantiated, and considering CF was scum, this implies either blind flailing luck or knowing something he shouldn't. Skakerag is either a cop or a scum, or inexperienced, and the third of these is impossible.
Jim: Your opinion on MrCelt, please. I haven't got a good read on him in comparison to others, and his previous incarnations barely posted.
Further, do you find Shakerag scummy at all? How much is their pressure vote on you influencing this decision, if at all?
Jim: What's your analysis of the D2 ending votecount?
Jim: What's your opinion of Scottzar - Why?
Scottzar: You're voting Jim. What's your justification?
Flandre: You appear to be quite neutral on your fos list, perhaps trying to not get on anyone's bad side. - Who is your #1 - Why haven't you applied pressure?Pressure does not necessarily have to be immediate. Questions without a pressuring tone can establish a relaxed baseline to which responses to meanie-face questions can compare (for example). I happen to like warming into it.
Shakerag: I don't see an obvious scum, but my top fos is probably flandre. - He's fairly inactive, and really needs to contribute more.Passive.
Shakerag was voted by Captain, who flipped mafia. Seems fairly clear, Groovester on the other hand does not have this advantage on their side.You can't effectively deduce who the mafia are by considering probable events as a basis for your arguments/reads. Speculations on the woulds and coulds of scum behavior are counter-productive and only serves to look colorful and busy.
Flandre has taken over the role of Mr. Zero - From what I read of Mr. Zero, I consider him to be more of a newbie townie that a mafia - Also voted Captain ford when there was no bandwagon, not something a mafia would usually do.
You dismiss biases on the matter to WIFOM, and by extension, the idea that Shakerag had any advantage over Jim after all. If you do not hold to your own contributions, are they just empty words? Superficial claims that are made to look busy?Did Ford's vote on Shakerag compel you into thinking that Shakerag was town? With Jim and Shakerag in opposition (as you say), does this have any influence on your read of Jim as well?
Ford's vote on Shakerag does not say anything to me due to tactics such as bussing et cetera, if ford believed he may die, he could try such a tactic to effectively 'clear' Shakerag. however the way Shakerag plays suggests him being town. Yes, I realise he's an experienced IC. - With Jim and Shakerag in opposition, I definitely am able to get a better read off on Jim, but nothing that suggests him being mafia, however, given the experience of the two players, it is not impossible they are two mafia working together to effectively bus.
Flandre: Do you think Captain Ford had any suspicious interactions (or notable lack of interactions) with any specific player(s)?I've looked through the thread with a focus on Captain Ford after he died, and I've determined several things:
[Just as a general note and a response to Flandre, this is something that I will do every so often. I think a good example is BM34 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3458532#msg3458532).]I'll take a look through that at some point, but for the sake of reliability, I'll just stick to hunting scum.
Flandre: you said you would post on Tuesday. It's 10 pm Tuesday in America. The absolute earliest you could possibly be at is 6 pm. We haven't received a PFP either. I'd like to see that scumhunting, please.I'll do these questions more justice when I am not tearing at the eyes from yawning so much.
What's your opinion on Jim?
What's your opinion on Shakerag?
What's your opinion on the interactions between the two?
MrCelt: Why are you waiting on Jim's opinion on you, or do you only care about Shakerag in this instance. Further: do you care at all how scummy others perceive you to be?
MrCelt: Kindly define 'advantage' in the context of your reads between Jim and Shakerag. Minus the wine, do you have a read for either of them?
I don't find Shakerag scummy. Shakerag's vote has nothing to do with my reads on any player. Regardless of what his actual reasons are for voting me and holding that vote, I take it more as a kick in the pants than anything else. I haven't heard anything out of him like "Jim is lurking scum" so I'm thinking my assumption is right.
Shakerag: What're your reads?Flandre: Potentially town by nature of newbtown read on Mr.Zero and nothing to sway me away from that impression since replacing in.
Shakerag: if we had known the day was going to end when it did, due to not being able to extend or w/e, would you have kept your vote on CF?Yes. I didn't have a hell of a lot to go on with the other players, so I would have stuck with my gut in a field of poor reads.
Flandre, MrCelt: What's your take on why Jim's voting Scottzar?
I'm suspicious of there being little CF <-> kingfisher/borno interaction
Jim: Why's do you find Scottzar scummy? Quote and opinion.
Ergo, his attacks on CF were largely unsubstantiated, and considering CF was scum, this implies either blind flailing luck or knowing something he shouldn't. Skakerag is either a cop or a scum, or inexperienced, and the third of these is impossible.
Jim: Is there anything on previous days to reinforce your case on Scottzar?
I'll be honest, and say that in retrospect, Captain Ford was scummier than I thought, but I still would have Mr.Zero was more likely to be scum before CF flipped.
What's your opinion on Jim?
What's your opinion on Shakerag?
What's your opinion on the interactions between the two?
Flandre, can you speak to why your predecessor used his inexperience as a shield when he really shouldn't have? Because at the time I'm writing this he would have been my top suspect (in a field of weak suspects) had he not been replaced....so I can see where that might play a part in a general lack of Jim-induced bloodshed (as well as the fact that he has been really busy). Besides lurking a little, he has played acceptably and I maintain a weak might-be-town read on him at the moment.
Flandre: Asides from myself, who's your fos?No one, if it pleases you to know. I am inclined to believe that Jim has a good point with Scottzar's suspect opinion change, but no active fingers are being pointed. Well...besides at yourself, that is. Is being my main object of attention uncomfortable for you?
I'm not sure what you meant on advantage.I want you to elaborate on 'advantage' as used in the following:
Shakerag was voted by Captain, who flipped mafia. Seems fairly clear, Groovester on the other hand does not have this advantage on their side.
Flandre, MrCelt: What's your take on why Jim's voting Scottzar?Scottzar switched between two opposing viewpoints (aka jackrabbiting, please tell me if I am wrong). I see the vote as one part scum-tell declaration, and one part pressure, and I can't see if there is anything more to it than that. I am definitely interested in how he answers, but otherwise I'm not sure if you are seeing something that I'm not. Why do you ask?
MrCelt:Flandre: Asides from myself, who's your fos?No one, if it pleases you to know. I am inclined to believe that Jim has a good point with Scottzar's suspect opinion change, but no active fingers are being pointed. Well...besides at yourself, that is. Is being my main object of attention uncomfortable for you?I'm not sure what you meant on advantage.I want you to elaborate on 'advantage' as used in the following:Shakerag was voted by Captain, who flipped mafia. Seems fairly clear, Groovester on the other hand does not have this advantage on their side.
MrCelt: I see you as slightly scummy due to your predecessors making themselves scarce. I'm not going to build a case on you for something you can't explain, but I'll wait and see how you handle things.
Did Ford's vote on Shakerag compel you into thinking that Shakerag was town? With Jim and Shakerag in opposition (as you say), does this have any influence on your read of Jim as well?
Shakerag: Neutral (with positive leanings)--a tricky call. Your real-world commitment (or lurking, whichever the case may be), partial in-game dedication to ICing and high experience make you a hard read, but I will agree that solid material and outside influences such as Ford's vote helps a little in appraising you.
What was your impression of Kingfisher/Borno?
Scottzar: Neutral. You have been quite active, but spent most of your time hounding Mr. Zero before I replaced him. I keep getting caught up on your disappointment at not being able to interrogate Nerjin (which I am not thoroughly convinced isn't a scumtell). Your justification:I can agree with an absence of leads, but I must ask:So, essentially, you're sad that your scumteam theory didn't pan out and that you didn't get the chance to really put Nerjin through the ringer, even though he was actually town.Partially, but also because out of the three people I had a reason to believe were scum (Mr.Zero, Nerjin and ShoesandHats), 2 have flipped town and that leaves me with a completely unaccounted for second scum who I (at that time) had no leads on.
Are you suspicious of anyone besides the late Mr. Zero? Who are your current scumpicks?
Jim: Slightly scummy. You are an experienced player and an IC, like Shakerag, so it's hard for me to get a decent read on you. It seems a little outside of the norm for you to withhold your vote, though, so that has some influence.
You did say earlier that Mr. Zero was your premier suspect in a pool of weak suspects. Do you have any suspicions other than with Mr. Zero and I? On another note, can it be a wise approach to town-hunt rather than scumhunt (ie. looking for town-tells and deducing scum through deduction) in difficult games such as these?
Scottzar has requested a replacement.Rather scummy that when pressure applied, he requests a replacement. Did he give a reason?
Scottzar has requested a replacement.Rather scummy that when pressure applied, he requests a replacement. Did he give a reason?
What for? We've barely used the extension we have.
Speaking of, MrCelt, when are you going to vote?
Shakerag, why are you voting me?
Flandre, what's your case on MrCelt?
Fair enough.I'm suspicious of there being little CF <-> kingfisher/borno interaction
To be fair, there was little Kingfisher/borno -> Anyone interaction.
Shakerag:Partly to get you talking, and partly to get a different point of view.Flandre, MrCelt: What's your take on why Jim's voting Scottzar?Scottzar switched between two opposing viewpoints (aka jackrabbiting, please tell me if I am wrong). I see the vote as one part scum-tell declaration, and one part pressure, and I can't see if there is anything more to it than that. I am definitely interested in how he answers, but otherwise I'm not sure if you are seeing something that I'm not. Why do you ask?
Shakerag, why are you voting me?Because you scum.
Don't make me quote myself again, everybody.Or what, you'll turn the car around? >_>
The number of nested quotes will double each time.Don't make me quote myself again, everybody.Or what, you'll turn the car around? >_>
Assuming we have one mafia left, we have a ML, right?[We have a whatnow? If you're trying to say what I think you are, five players with one of those being mafia is neither LYLO nor MYLO.]
Assuming we have one mafia left, we have a ML, right?[We have a whatnow? If you're trying to say what I think you are, five players with one of those being mafia is neither LYLO nor MYLO.]
Flandre, what's your case on MrCelt?An inconsistency in MrCelt's reasoning, which I will reiterate briefly:
Shakerag/Groovester Appear to both be fairly aggressive towards eachother, When I read I noticed them clashing a lot. - Shakerag was voted by Captain, who flipped mafia. Seems fairly clear, Groovester on the other hand does not have this advantage on their side.MrCelt claimed that Shakerag held an advantage over you due to Ford's vote on Shakerag. He saw the two of you in opposition, and stated that you were lacking in that same advantage.
Did Ford's vote on Shakerag compel you into thinking that Shakerag was town? With Jim and Shakerag in opposition (as you say), does this have any influence on your read of Jim as well?The first sentence in his answer caught my attention, and I bold for emphasis:
Ford's vote on Shakerag does not say anything to me due to tactics such as bussing et cetera, if ford believed he may die, he could try such a tactic to effectively 'clear' Shakerag.
I haven't voted yet as I don't find anyone particularly scummy. I was waiting for a few questions to be answered before I casted a vote.Would you cast that vote if you still did not find someone scummy after the questions were answered? It looks like you would do it to avoid becoming an object of suspicion than to actually hunt scum.
Mislynch, I meant. - We can mislynch and get to Three way LYLO. - probably good to use our lynch on our suspect.Given that you don't have a suspect, and as an addendum to my previous question:
Summarily, my attack on MrCelt is centered around Shakerag's 'advantage' not existing if Ford's vote on Shakerag 'doesn't say anything to him'.
Are you saying that we can afford to mislynch? Would you be willing to hold to a vote that is based mainly on the answers to recent questions?
I was waiting for a few questions to be answered before I casted a vote.
Mislynch, I meant. - We can mislynch and get to Three way LYLO. - probably good to use our lynch on our suspect.
Case on MrCelt
Shakerag, why are you voting me?Because you scum.
-So in your professional opinion, you think Scottzar's actions (generally speaking, referring to his "case" on me) to be genuinely scummy as opposed to newbing it up?
-Also, how does Scottzar looking at me suspiciously after you questioned him (which was "Do you have anything bad to say about Shakerag?", let's note) peg him as scum?
-Were he scum, what reasoning would he have to change his opinion of me (especially since he'd be the only one left)?
-Finally, why have you done no scumhunting (or even questioning, really) on kingfisher/borno/MrCelt at all? Don't you think it would be a good idea to try and wrangle a read on this oft-replaced player slot?
[Everyone: Holidays are upon us (or at least some of us, I suppose), so everyone check in with estimated availability for the upcoming week or two. I'll be out Thursday/Friday for sure, maybe posting at night if the stars align. I might pop back in later today with an extend if it looks like we could use it.]
I was waiting for a few questions to be answered before I casted a vote.
Mislynch, I meant. - We can mislynch and get to Three way LYLO. - probably good to use our lynch on our suspect.
Case on MrCelt
Shakerag, why are you voting me?Because you scum.
-So in your professional opinion, you think Scottzar's actions (generally speaking, referring to his "case" on me) to be genuinely scummy as opposed to newbing it up?
-Also, how does Scottzar looking at me suspiciously after you questioned him (which was "Do you have anything bad to say about Shakerag?", let's note) peg him as scum?
-Were he scum, what reasoning would he have to change his opinion of me (especially since he'd be the only one left)?
-Finally, why have you done no scumhunting (or even questioning, really) on kingfisher/borno/MrCelt at all? Don't you think it would be a good idea to try and wrangle a read on this oft-replaced player slot?
[Everyone: Holidays are upon us (or at least some of us, I suppose), so everyone check in with estimated availability for the upcoming week or two. I'll be out Thursday/Friday for sure, maybe posting at night if the stars align. I might pop back in later today with an extend if it looks like we could use it.]
Never mind here it is now.I was waiting for a few questions to be answered before I casted a vote.
Yes, that's exactly what it's for.
Speaking of suspects, who are yours?
Opinion on Shakerag v. Jim?Shakerag's case on Jim was outlined where he gave reads on each of us several posts back. One moment while I fetch that...
Jim: Maybe scum. Meta-analysis tells me his game is off and different from other BMs, but it also tells me that he's ass-high in schoolwork, which may explain some of that. Don't like that he didn't vote by D2 end, and he doesn't seem to be hunting out scum very much to me.I'm thinking Shakerag was trying to elicit a meaningful reaction out of Jim with a hunch/meta (namely, Jim's atypical play and lack of a vote at the end of D2, which really can't be used to apply direct pressure on its own), and switched his focus to Jim's current vote on Scottzar. I agree to Jim's points, though not really to the extent that I would find it worthy to stay my vote on Scottzar's pending replacement.
Scottzar: It's a shame he left, I had a bone to pick with him.-Please elaborate. Do you have a case against him?
Shakerag's vote was on Ford when he was acci-lynched, which MrCelt claimed would factor in his choosing to lynch you over Shakerag, were it ever to come to that:Case on MrCelt
I still don't understand this.
What the fuck is this advantage both of you are talking about?
Advantage: Shakerag has something on his side that Jim does not, so If it came down to it on a lynch between the two then that'd be taken into account- However, Jim and shakerag are no longer arguing, and the attention is currently on Scottzar.That was the WIFOMy advantage he was referring to.
-You claim that today is expendable, but a mislynch favors scum however you look at it. Scum gladly settle for a mislynch, and apparently, so do you. How would you connect those dots?
Finally: is your case against Scottzar strong enough for you to want to hang him?Is any case, really..? - I tend to vote towards hanging the most scummy, and at that current point, Scottzar was the only one who I considered scummy.
That question was actually intended for Jim, but I should have probably addressed it directly to him rather than just place it under his section in my post.QuoteFinally: is your case against Scottzar strong enough for you to want to hang him?Is any case, really..? - I tend to vote towards hanging the most scummy, and at that current point, Scottzar was the only one who I considered scummy.
No-lynching was never even a factor in determining odds for me, considering how terrible an idea that is.Quote-You claim that today is expendable, but a mislynch favors scum however you look at it. Scum gladly settle for a mislynch, and apparently, so do you. How would you connect those dots?If we NL'd, we'd be at Four-Way Lylo, with our top suspect, who may not be mafia, probably being lynched.
If we Lynched, we'd be at three way, assuming our top suspect was not mafia.
In three way lylo, there is a 1/3 chance of killing scum, with our top suspects removed and more votes to read off of.
In four way lylo, there is a 1/4 chance of killing scum, with our top suspect probably kept alive by the mafia so we ML him into a mafia win.
No-lynching was never even a factor in determining odds for me, considering how terrible an idea that is.
Let's put it this way: it is in the remaining scum's agenda to mislynch tonight. This is his only course of action (as it is at the end of every day). You are openly pushing that agenda, and sitting on your vote, besides. Were you intending on using that vote, or are you content with just preaching better odds for town tomorrow and waiting for the day to end?
Why did you not want an extension? it was quite clear nothing would be done if not extending, bringing us to 4way lylo, which is less advantageous than 3way lylo.
Yourself, Jim: Was in an argument with shakerag, but appears to be ignoring it, instead choosing to get scottzar. I should think you'll be
back defending against shakerag now scottzar has gone.
Why did you not want an extension? it was quite clear nothing would be done if not extending, bringing us to 4way lylo, which is less advantageous than 3way lylo.
Jim,Why did you not want an extension? it was quite clear nothing would be done if not extending, bringing us to 4way lylo, which is less advantageous than 3way lylo.
That was the WIFOMy advantage he was referring to.
Finally: is your case against Scottzar strong enough for you to want to hang him?
1) I'm not suggesting we MISLYNCH. I'm saying we lynch our highest suspect instead of NL'ing, and even a ML is better than a NL.1) You weren't suggesting to mislynch. You were holding onto your vote and telling the rest of us how bad an idea no-lynching is.
2) I really don't want to vote until scottzar gets a replacement.
3) I've been trying to extend since forever, Not been waiting for the day to end. I'm in fact the FIRST person extending in many circumstances.
JimLacking in support up until day end.
Yes.I should have made the intended meaning of my question clearer. I wanted to know if you had the same intention to lynch Scottzar even now that he is not participating (it comes to the same answer, either way).
Have I just been flapping my mouth uselessly...? This is exactly what I've been saying since Scottzar asked for a replacement.
Ah, I see.
And how does that factor in to your case?
I won't be killed so easily, not without dragging it out and digging up everything I can on you first.
MrCelt:1) I'm not suggesting we MISLYNCH. I'm saying we lynch our highest suspect instead of NL'ing, and even a ML is better than a NL.1) You weren't suggesting to mislynch. You were holding onto your vote and telling the rest of us how bad an idea no-lynching is.
2) I really don't want to vote until scottzar gets a replacement.
3) I've been trying to extend since forever, Not been waiting for the day to end. I'm in fact the FIRST person extending in many circumstances.
2) Whoever replaces in for Scottzar could not possibly refute your case against him. Speaking realistically, whatever the replacement says will not make or break your suspicions, so why wait until he steps in to vote? Do you see what you are telling us? Share with us your current case against Scottzar, and whatever you were going to ask of him, if anything.
3) You can't speak for what scum would or wouldn't do, so that hardly counts as a gold star on your township poster. A scumtell, maybe. What are your thoughts on "This is why I'm town:" arguments?
Whilst this is not the response I was wanting, I'll roll with it. Please dig this stuff up for me, Jim, and while you're at it, why did you respond SO aggressively?
Whilst this is not the response I was wanting, I'll roll with it. Please dig this stuff up for me, Jim, and while you're at it, why did you respond SO aggressively?
I don't like being lynched for shit reasons. Speaking of which, you have yet to list yours for voting me.
MrCelt.
Whilst this is not the response I was wanting, I'll roll with it.What was the response you were hoping for?
Jim: Did you find anything interesting in your search against MrCelt?
Honestly? Okay, here's how I think it went down. Scottzar looked at my gameplay, couldn't find anything scummy, noted that I was on a scum lynch, and (coupled with being an IC) decided that I must be solidly town. This idea is likely pretty set in his mind. Then when you (as another IC, pillar of mafia gameplay that we are) question him *specifically* to look over my gameplay to see if he can "find anything bad to say" about me it puts him on the spot. Why is the IC asking me to look for something bad about a person I think is solidly town? Did I miss something? Does he see something I don't? There must be something there if the IC is asking me!-So in your professional opinion, you think Scottzar's actions (generally speaking, referring to his "case" on me) to be genuinely scummy as opposed to newbing it up?
Yes.
You don't think so? Tell me how the stuff he's done is better explainable by him being a noob than him being scum.
Sure there's a shift. But there was an external influence (you) between those statements. Newbies "buddying" up to ICs is nothing new or unexpected. The reasons he suddenly think I'm scummy for *are* bad, perhaps, but that's due to a newbie being pressured by an IC, IMO.-Also, how does Scottzar looking at me suspiciously after you questioned him (which was "Do you have anything bad to say about Shakerag?", let's note) peg him as scum?
It's a scumtell, it doesn't peg him as scum. If it pegged him as scum I would have been shouting obscenities at him declaring him to be the scummiest person on the planet.
You can't deny that there's a stark shift in his attitude towards you between this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3776072#msg3776072) and this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3777265#msg3777265). In the first, he's practically buddying up to you, which is what I was very indirectly getting at by saying if he had anything bad to say about you. And then, suddenly, in response to my question, he did. Except that the reasons he suddenly thinks you're scummy for are bad. If they were, I'd have a more relaxed opinion about this.
There could be an innocent explanation for all this, but I don't find that likely, and you have to admit that it's hella odd that it happened and in the way it did.
Fair enough. Too much wine on that point.-Were he scum, what reasoning would he have to change his opinion of me (especially since he'd be the only one left)?
You mean, besides to avoid the accusation of buddying?
I can't say. This is WIFOM anyway. Maybe he thinks he can lynch you today or tomorrow, maybe he thinks he has a good case, maybe he did it just so he can say he attacked an IC and that's a dangerous move for scum, or maybe he's just misguided.
Nothing to ask? That seems uncharacteristic of you. Why not prod them aggressively to produce said content?-Finally, why have you done no scumhunting (or even questioning, really) on kingfisher/borno/MrCelt at all? Don't you think it would be a good idea to try and wrangle a read on this oft-replaced player slot?
Because they've been absent up until recently and I've had nothing to ask and I've been waiting to see what they produce on their own before I prod them aggressively about it.
Shakerag: I have said earlier I think Shakerag is town, but his persistance in attacking Jim is rather suspiciousWhat's suspicious about going after someone you think is scum? I'll stick on Jim's ass until he hangs or I'm convinced he isn't scum.
What IS this whole fiasco on Jim about? Surely you'd move on to another target you think is scummy, instead of this persistance?
Shakerag: You've been gone for a while. What do you think of current events?Apologies. Holidays, work, and other games have taken up my time. I think we're in a difficult spot with one replacement needed (ZU? Did someone contact you about that?). I think Jim is scum, but I'll grant that it's always a bit hard to tell with him. Scottzar struck me as next-most-scummy, but that's more of a gut feeling.
there's no reason not to lynch someone who is quite scummy.
Everyone: Let's get back to the game now that the holidays are over. Restate your case on who you're voting and why.
To those of you who asked: Why I'm voting Jim: I originally wanted that question answered, and I'm oblivious to american holidays, so didn't realise it was thanksgiving. - now his response was offputting, and as we have a ML to burn, there's no reason not to lynch someone who is quite scummy. - He's also voting me for no reason, either; He said it himself, he can see nothing scummy about myself other than me voting him..
Flandre: Post. Why don't you think Jim is the last scum?
Any questions to keep in mind while I read through? I've been a bit busy but the weekend is creeping ever closer!Giving us your views on the game is as good a place to start as any. Do you have any Mafia experience?
Day extended to Monday, December 3rd.To be fair, we did have a holiday during the game.
0 to extend.
0 to shorten.
This BM has been running about twice as long as other BMs. Please think before extending. And please make use of extensions. If you are unable to post consistently consider asking for a replacement. I've been kinda lazy about prods but I'm going to start paying more attention to activity.
Please be active.
The holiday only lasted one day. >:(♫ It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas ♫
And please start making substantial posts.PROD EVERYONE AND MODKILL THE REST
Lynx_:Giving us your views on the game is as good a place to start as any. Do you have any Mafia experience?Not too much. I've played a few games off-site and many RL games at parties!
lynx_: Post. Give me your reads on all remaining players.Please correct me if I get any facts wrong, as I don't have the hours I'd need to spare to read the entire thread comprehensively.
It's a huge thread though, you guys post much more than on the other forum I played on, over there games are usually 10 pages long at the end, rather than 30. Hence it taking a good while for me to read through.[This one is not the longest by far, but they typically run out to about this length or a bit more.]
Shakerag why are you so sure he's scum?Here's a good start. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3829167#msg3829167)
Modkill all townies.Shut it, you. Go prod your scumbuddy to post more.
Honestly? Okay, here's how I think it went down. Scottzar looked at my gameplay, couldn't find anything scummy, noted that I was on a scum lynch, and (coupled with being an IC) decided that I must be solidly town. This idea is likely pretty set in his mind. Then when you (as another IC, pillar of mafia gameplay that we are) question him *specifically* to look over my gameplay to see if he can "find anything bad to say" about me it puts him on the spot. Why is the IC asking me to look for something bad about a person I think is solidly town? Did I miss something? Does he see something I don't? There must be something there if the IC is asking me!-So in your professional opinion, you think Scottzar's actions (generally speaking, referring to his "case" on me) to be genuinely scummy as opposed to newbing it up?
Yes.
You don't think so? Tell me how the stuff he's done is better explainable by him being a noob than him being scum.
And so, when one is trying hard to look for something they presume must be there, they'll find something, anything, and rationalize it to fit with what they're looking for. Hence why it seems that Scottzar "reversed" his opinion.
An experienced player, in my opinion, would stick by thier town analysis if they thought it correct. But a new player being questioned by an IC ... You see where I'm going with this? So I think your jumping on Scottzar for flipping his position is a lame ass reason for voting him. It looks like a newbie bowing under pressure from an IC to deliver something that's being asked for.
Sure there's a shift. But there was an external influence (you) between those statements. Newbies "buddying" up to ICs is nothing new or unexpected. The reasons he suddenly think I'm scummy for *are* bad, perhaps, but that's due to a newbie being pressured by an IC, IMO.
Fair enough. Too much wine on that point.
Quote from: JimBecause they've been absent up until recently and I've had nothing to ask and I've been waiting to see what they produce on their own before I prod them aggressively about it.Nothing to ask? That seems uncharacteristic of you. Why not prod them aggressively to produce said content?
I can't find it in the rules and I'm not used to votes in text, do you cut the day short with a majority vote? If so I currently have the opportunity to hammer either MrCelt or Jim. I'm leaning towards Jim at the moment, Shakerag why are you so sure he's scum?
Go fuck yourself, I'm sick. You'll get a post when I damn well feel like it and that is not now.Well, if you're sick, I guess I wouldn't want to be fucking you.
Shakerag: Do you have any opinion about MrCelt's reasons for voting me, or more accurately, complete lack thereof?It looks pretty lazy, considering the only target he pegged previously as scummy was Scottzar.
Scottzar was no wilting flower. He was someone who entered the game with strong opinions about how it should be played, and players like that are not the type to bend backwards and reverse position from a single question regardless of whether it came from an IC or not. Your characterization is inaccurate because Scottzar was not lacking in confidence in how he played.Okay, fair enough. But then why would he go after Flandre of all targets?
He's had cause to argue with me even over my IC opinion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3763227#msg3763227) so I don't understand how he would suddenly become nervous over what I asked him. Scottzar reacted to my question, but it was not because he suddenly doubted himself because he thought I challenged him.
Buddying in general, yes. But I'd say that "buddying" in the context of a BM is a little different, and possibly even expected (when directed toward an IC). New players looking for something/one to latch on to that seems solid and all.Sure there's a shift. But there was an external influence (you) between those statements. Newbies "buddying" up to ICs is nothing new or unexpected. The reasons he suddenly think I'm scummy for *are* bad, perhaps, but that's due to a newbie being pressured by an IC, IMO.
Why are you brushing away buddying as if it's no big deal?
Isn't it a big deal? Shouldn't instances of buddying be looked at regardless of how common it is or not?
I don't understand why you're so blase about it.
Because I wasn't taking WIFOM into consideration when I orginally said what I did.Fair enough. Too much wine on that point.
Why'd you make it then?
Okay, fair enough. But then why would he go after Flandre of all targets?
I would just think he would have gone after you (possibly before his "slip" to buddy up to me), or myself (because now all of a sudden I look suspicious).Okay, fair enough. But then why would he go after Flandre of all targets?
What's so special about Flandre?
She replaced Mr.Zero, who gave Scottzar lots to go after.
Flandre: That's a nice case you have there and all, but since we have a tie, what are you going to do now to convince everyone else to vote with you?I never intended on forming a bandwagon, outside of providing my points as clearly as I could and casting my vote. I might have tried to deliberate with you if you wanted to keep dogging Jim after his rebuttal, but his answer confirmed my read on him and affected yours without my help.
((<3))Spoiler: Click Me (click to show/hide)
[spoiler=Click Me]This should be the standard prod message.
I never intended on forming a bandwagon, outside of providing my points as clearly as I could and casting my vote. I might have tried to deliberate with you if you wanted to keep dogging Jim after his rebuttal, but his answer confirmed my read on him and affected yours without my help.If you have good reasons for voting someone, and can convince others about your good reasons, it's not a bandwagon. Besides, what good does it do you to be convinced someone is scum, have a solid argument, and vote them if everyone else is off circlejerking around some other player? Great, so the person who you think is the last scum is getting no attention from everyone else. You need to say "Hey assholes, I got the last scum here and this is why!" Otherwise the other chuckleheads you're playing with are going to mislynch the town into a loss, right?
In the meanwhile, I need to look through the thread again with attention on how MrCelt and Jim related with the rest of us.Why? They flipped town, so what relations would you be looking for?
Now, I am fairly certain where my vote is going but will wait for Shakerag to return.If you're fairly certain where your vote is going, why do you need to wait for me? What could I say or do that would affect where your vote is going?
You're right, of course. Up until now, my focus has always been to dig up and lay out evidence, but I've never really tried to convince others into buying my arguments (in any of the games that I've played). It's a real-world skill that I sorely lack. To be honest, I was not ready to stand down my vote on MrCelt just to break a tie (being so sure that he was scum, and opting instead to wait for Jim's response for me to say something).I never intended on forming a bandwagon, outside of providing my points as clearly as I could and casting my vote. I might have tried to deliberate with you if you wanted to keep dogging Jim after his rebuttal, but his answer confirmed my read on him and affected yours without my help.If you have good reasons for voting someone, and can convince others about your good reasons, it's not a bandwagon. Besides, what good does it do you to be convinced someone is scum, have a solid argument, and vote them if everyone else is off circlejerking around some other player? Great, so the person who you think is the last scum is getting no attention from everyone else. You need to say "Hey assholes, I got the last scum here and this is why!" Otherwise the other chuckleheads you're playing with are going to mislynch the town into a loss, right?
They were sincere in their arguments, so I add some more weight to the material they provided.In the meanwhile, I need to look through the thread again with attention on how MrCelt and Jim related with the rest of us.Why? They flipped town, so what relations would you be looking for?
Flandre led the lynch on MrCelt, a lurking easy target.I did lead the lynch on MrCelt, but if you look again, you'll see that it was when MrCelt was more active. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3790236#msg3790236) The fact that he started lurking did him no favors, and especially since he cast an unsupported lynch vote on Jim and disappeared.
Points in my favour:
MrZero was really scummy D1, unable to stand up to other people's pressure.
Flandre led the lynch on MrCelt, a lurking easy target.
Scottzar, while he was here, scum-hunted and asked questions. MrZero didn't.
Points in Flandre's favour:
I disappeared and missed the vote. If I'd have voted it would've been for MrCelt or Jim even if I had been around, both have now flipped town.
I trust Shakerag due to previous content, there's no hammer though so even if he votes for me it won't tell me for sure he's scum. Flandre has been rather hasty to vote though, although that could just be the playing style around here.I read this as: "It's okay if you want to vote for me, Shakerag. I trust you."
Well then you misread it. I'm used to majority being hammer and have never played a game in which that isn't the case.I trust Shakerag due to previous content, there's no hammer though so even if he votes for me it won't tell me for sure he's scum. Flandre has been rather hasty to vote though, although that could just be the playing style around here.I read this as: "It's okay if you want to vote for me, Shakerag. I trust you."
Think super-secret townie handshake.
lynx_: Why are you vying for Shakerag's favor over actually scumhunting objectively? Also, you said you were going to wait until he posted to use your vote. Are you implying that you want for him to question me so you can mount your own attack seamlessly with his?If Shakerag is scum, he's won as far as I'm concerned. I found nothing on him in my read-through.
If you were going to vote for me, _lynx, than do so. Don't hide behind Shakerag.
Xny You make very poor attempts at creating good questions, are you even trying to scum hunt?Ironically, this was MrZero's attempt to scumhunt. This and complaining about lurking.
Let's look at it like this. It was quite late, i wanted to go to sleep soon. However, i also wanted to do something with the mafia.That's not what a townie would do with their time.
Creating an good attack would take far too long, it would require me to shift trough various posts, create more quote's, re-read, etc.
Thus i concluded that it wasn't worth my time, since i was short on it.
What i could do as well was to defend myself. This is a bit more flexible. You can for example just answer questions, or answers questions which refer to different posts, etc. I chose for the first option, since that was the least time consuming thing that i could do.
You could say something scummy. It's LYLO, I was never going to be throwing my vote around without at least hearing from people was I? Just in case.Now, I am fairly certain where my vote is going but will wait for Shakerag to return.If you're fairly certain where your vote is going, why do you need to wait for me? What could I say or do that would affect where your vote is going?
Mod, when exactly is deadline?See above.
Shakerag: If all of my evidence was already on the table, how would you suggest I try to make someone believe it without repeating myself?Repeating yourself is a good start. If you keep putting your argument out there, more people are seeing it and it has a greater chance of influencing those who are reading it. Also, poke at other people's arguments. "Hey, I know you are voting X for Y, but I think my case on A (which is B) more clearly shows A is scummier than Y. Why are you voting X for poor reasons like Y, when A did B which is way scummier?" Or something to that effect.
If Shakerag had posted after you voted me without hammering, he'd have been confirmed town unless he was fucking around.Feels WIFOMy. I wouldn't put too much stock in reasoning like that.
I meant if we could hammer in this game. Basically that's not an issue, it was just on my mind at the time.If Shakerag had posted after you voted me without hammering, he'd have been confirmed town unless he was fucking around.Feels WIFOMy. I wouldn't put too much stock in reasoning like that.
As it's currently 11pm here and deadline is tomorrow morning when I have class, I probably won't be able to respond to anything ze (pronoun?) has to say.This is what extensions are for.
Flandre has been lynched. She was a zombie!FTFY :P
The town has won!