Post by: Leafsnail on December 15, 2012, 08:49:23 pm
Spoiler: Flavour (click to show/hide)
This game is a 13 player open setup: Masons and Mafia (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Masons_and_Mafia).
The roles in this game are as follows.
4 mafia members
4 masons
5 townies
Mafia members win if they make up at least half of the remaining players in the game.
Townies and masons win if all mafia members are eliminated.
There is no night phase so the mafia do not get a nightkill, but instead they have another ability. At any time any mafia member can send in a daykill (or "dox") action against a town player. If that player is a mason, they are eliminated. However, if that player is a townie then the mafia member is eliminated instead (in this case no information is given about who the mafia member targetted).
Mafia members and masons are both told who their partners are, but do not have any private means of communication with each other. No private communication is allowed in this game.
Spoiler: Deadline and timing rules (click to show/hide)
Still at large (6/13):
Tiruin
zombie urist
Toaster
Innocent until proven guilty (8):
Leafsnail - Hacking Mastermind - Doxxed Day 0
Nerjin - mafia goon - Doxxed Day 1
Urist Imiknorris - mafia goon - Doxxed Day 1
TolyK - mason - Lynched Day 1
Captain Ford - townie - Lynched Day 2
Dariush - mafia goon - Doxxed day 4
Deathsword - mason - Doxxed day 4
notquitethere - mafia goon - Doxxed day 4
Post by: Bookthras on December 15, 2012, 09:06:49 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 16, 2012, 05:19:25 am
Post by: Tiruin on December 16, 2012, 06:02:23 am
In
Post by: Bookthras on December 16, 2012, 06:39:26 am
Interesting idea. In.
Hey Pandar! For old time's sake and upcoming new year and mayan apocalypse and old acquaintances be forgot and your impending death as either witless scum or daykilled mason and all that, I hereby issue a preemptive
Vengekill Pandarsenic! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2deQgkciOB4#t=0h1m30s)
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 16, 2012, 06:57:37 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 16, 2012, 03:40:27 pm
Interesting idea. In.I should probably point out it isn't my setup. I can't find whose setup it is anywhere though.
Post by: Nerjin on December 16, 2012, 06:21:58 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 16, 2012, 07:32:10 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on December 16, 2012, 07:44:37 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 16, 2012, 07:55:35 pm
Post by: Nerjin on December 16, 2012, 08:37:56 pm
I don't think it'd be too difficult. Just don't claim mason if you're a mason.
But I can't lie to people! I fold under pressure immediately!
Post by: zombie urist on December 16, 2012, 09:29:36 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on December 16, 2012, 09:48:38 pm
Post by: Phantom of The Library on December 17, 2012, 01:12:56 am
Post by: Tiruin on December 17, 2012, 01:37:10 am
Oooh, this looks interesting! I need to get into a game anyway, it's been too long.
YUS! :D
Quote from: Tiruin's PM
Kill Phantom. Now.
Post by: Phantom of The Library on December 17, 2012, 11:53:41 am
Quote from: Tiruin's PMKill Phantom. Now.
Nuuuuuuuuuu （ ﾟ Дﾟ)
Why, Tiruin, why... I thought...
*cough* *hack*
I thought that we were friends... I thought that together we would kill the
I feel my life slipping away... I feel... cold...
Elbereth! A Elbereth Gilthoniël! I see it now! I see the light!
*dies*
Post by: Dariush on December 17, 2012, 11:58:09 am
Post by: Tiruin on December 18, 2012, 12:57:59 am
X_x
Post by: Nerjin on December 18, 2012, 01:01:07 am
Until he re-reads his comment...
Post by: Captain Ford on December 18, 2012, 12:44:24 pm
If no one objects, I'd like In.
Post by: TolyK on December 26, 2012, 12:58:26 pm
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on December 26, 2012, 01:01:43 pm
Post by: TolyK on December 26, 2012, 01:02:33 pm
Post by: Dariush on December 26, 2012, 01:11:52 pm
In.BM is the other way.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 26, 2012, 01:59:42 pm
Post by: Dariush on December 26, 2012, 02:07:39 pm
It's a relatively easy setup, it should be ok.Hey, did you know I'm an Oracle? And I spy with my little third eye the D1's lynch target.
Seriously, letting BMless newbies into serious games is a terrible idea.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 26, 2012, 02:29:14 pm
Post by: Dariush on December 26, 2012, 02:36:50 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 26, 2012, 03:05:38 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on December 26, 2012, 03:43:09 pm
Post by: Bookthras on December 26, 2012, 04:33:30 pm
I won my first game by lynching a mafia memberNeither did I. For my troubles I got lynched D1 in the first game I joinedSeriously, letting BMless newbies into serious games is a terrible idea.I've never played a BM.
To quote from the movie Dogma (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120655/quotes?qt0309111): "That's why he's the King, and you're a schmuck."
Seriously Dariush, I see where you're coming from, but generalisations are dangerous and often incorrect. Hapah's first ever game was a Roguelike, and he did way better than you, lived to the end, and won. UristMcNoble's first (and only!) game was Politibastard, and he did way better than you, lived to the end, and won. So lay off and let the moderator moderate however he sees fit. When the game starts, you are free to vote your conscience.
But also Freshmaniscoolman: There is a Beginners' Mafia now in signups here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120310.0), you may wish to consider joining that in addition to or instead of this game. If nothing else, please be sure to read the first post in that topic in detail, and ask questions.
Post by: Nerjin on December 27, 2012, 12:57:44 am
Post by: Dariush on December 27, 2012, 02:19:14 am
heheheheI won my first game by lynching a mafia memberNeither did I. For my troubles I got lynched D1 in the first game I joinedSeriously, letting BMless newbies into serious games is a terrible idea.I've never played a BM.
To quote from the movie Dogma (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120655/quotes?qt0309111): "That's why he's the King, and you're a schmuck."
Seriously Dariush, I see where you're coming from, but generalisations are dangerous and often incorrect. Hapah's first ever game was a Roguelike, and he did way better than you, lived to the end, and won. UristMcNoble's first (and only!) game was Politibastard, and he did way better than you, lived to the end, and won. So lay off and let the moderator moderate however he sees fit. When the game starts, you are free to vote your conscience.
But also Freshmaniscoolman: There is a Beginners' Mafia now in signups here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120310.0), you may wish to consider joining that in addition to or instead of this game. If nothing else, please be sure to read the first post in that topic in detail, and ask questions.
I won my first game by lynching a mafia memberBack than people who were playing since the creation of the board were playing for less time. Therefore, the gap between them and newbies was lesser than it is today.
Post by: Scelly9 on December 27, 2012, 02:21:51 am
Post by: ToonyMan on December 27, 2012, 01:45:28 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on December 28, 2012, 09:24:41 am
My first (joined, not replaced in) mafia game never ended N3 after I broke it. True story. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36961.0)
Yeah, wow. That is one thoroughly broken game.
Post by: Dariush on December 28, 2012, 09:45:37 am
My first (joined, not replaced in) mafia game never ended N3 after I broke it. True story. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36961.0)TL;RP
So you were the captain and you got lynched so your knowledge isn't gotten by mutineers. So?
Post by: Captain Ford on December 28, 2012, 02:26:35 pm
If there is a tie then any mafia member can send me a PM to choose who dies.
I just noticed this part of the rules. Is this a standard part of Leafsnail's games?
Because I quite like it. It's a very clever way to resolve a tie vote, and it's an even stronger incentive for town to avoid a tie situation.
Spoiler: Tangent (click to show/hide)
Post by: ToonyMan on December 28, 2012, 03:28:53 pm
Captain's can control who gets lynched or not. If you actually read the last post you could see that. :P After the mod saw that he probably realized that The Captain (which is a confirmed town role) could just completely control the game. I would be able to order the entire game around and the mutineers wouldn't stand a chance. I can't be night-killed because this was back when PMs were okay and I had everyone's role info (being confirmed town they better damn send it). I had at least two guards protecting me so and I would be able to confirm everyone's actions as well. And thus the game never ended.My first (joined, not replaced in) mafia game never ended N3 after I broke it. True story. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36961.0)TL;RP
So you were the captain and you got lynched so your knowledge isn't gotten by mutineers. So?
Post by: Captain Ford on December 28, 2012, 04:14:59 pm
My first (joined, not replaced in) mafia game never ended N3 after I broke it. True story. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36961.0)TL;RP
So you were the captain and you got lynched so your knowledge isn't gotten by mutineers. So?
Yeah, I thought that too. Except that when the end of the day came, ToonyMan actually did prevent his own lynch. With the conversion dealt with, he was bulletproof. Mod locked the thread for night and then never unlocked it.
Post by: Dariush on December 29, 2012, 02:05:05 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 29, 2012, 01:54:06 pm
Post by: TolyK on December 29, 2012, 02:03:26 pm
Post by: Dariush on December 29, 2012, 02:05:55 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on December 29, 2012, 02:07:25 pm
So you got an insanely overpowered role and figured out how to use it. Yay.Yay indeed! It's nice to see you sharing in someone else's happiness, Dariush.
The standard tie resolution is no lynch, but in a nightless game that allows the town to stall forever. This is an encouragement to reach a consensus.Oh. Right. I forgot that there was no nightkill in this game when I wrote that. Now I can see that it's necessary in order to force the game to progress.
Eh. 4 more?Yeah, I hate waiting too.
Post by: Nerjin on December 29, 2012, 08:36:12 pm
I still urge you to reconsider letting a BMless newbie in.
I'm sorta in with this idea. But it is your game there kiddo so you do whatever you feel will benefit the game the most.
Post by: Dariush on December 30, 2012, 04:37:06 am
'Giving scum a free day if he's not scum and a one-man penalty if he is' isn't something I'd consider to be a benefit to the game.I still urge you to reconsider letting a BMless newbie in.
I'm sorta in with this idea. But it is your game there kiddo so you do whatever you feel will benefit the game the most.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 30, 2012, 01:34:24 pm
Post by: Nerjin on December 31, 2012, 12:42:56 am
Shameless plug is shameless.
Post by: Dariush on December 31, 2012, 04:33:36 am
Well being a "Noob" will likely have them making a lot of mistakes. It sort of clutters up the board I think. Then again if he were to visit the currently running Beginner's Mafia he could learn how forum mafia works in a nice setting where everyone is just as skilled! I don't see the harm of sitting out this game to play a Beginner's mafia.QFT. Also, he may very well become fed up with mafia in general or getting instalynched in this game in particular (because, frankly, D1 lynch can not be argued) and leave the subforum, which he wouldn't have done had he played a BM (optionally requesting a replacement this board doesn't have with the current state of affairs (holidays and general lurk-a-tron and absence of players)).
Shameless plug is shameless.
Post by: Edosurist on January 04, 2013, 04:28:58 am
You still accepting players? Hasn't been any talk in this thread since last year!
Oh, aren't I funny.
Post by: TolyK on January 04, 2013, 04:29:52 am
Post by: Dariush on January 04, 2013, 04:50:42 am
This looks like a very interesting setup.BM is thaaaaaaaaat way.
You still accepting players? Hasn't been any talk in this thread since last year!
Oh, aren't I funny.
Post by: Nerjin on January 04, 2013, 05:14:27 am
Post by: Dariush on January 04, 2013, 05:45:17 am
More specifically it is this way. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120310.0) If you are interested.Shameless self-promotion is shameless.
Post by: Nerjin on January 04, 2013, 06:35:31 am
Post by: Edosurist on January 04, 2013, 03:40:04 pm
I've played multiple games elsewhere. No need to wait in BM. I'm too cool for school. 8)
I should probably stop making this jokes while I'm ahead...
Post by: Nerjin on January 04, 2013, 04:36:23 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on January 04, 2013, 04:42:22 pm
Post by: zombie urist on January 04, 2013, 05:44:08 pm
Post by: Teneb on January 10, 2013, 04:20:42 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 10, 2013, 05:49:33 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on January 10, 2013, 05:54:33 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on January 10, 2013, 10:06:33 pm
Post by: Dariush on January 11, 2013, 04:08:48 am
Thanks for deciding the game before it even started, Leaf.
Post by: TolyK on January 11, 2013, 07:38:15 am
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 11, 2013, 07:57:36 am
Post by: Dariush on January 11, 2013, 08:14:54 am
Also what if one is town and one is scum?Then we get an 11-player game with a disadvantage for scum (because they lost 1/4 of their team while town lost 1/9).
Post by: Leafsnail on January 11, 2013, 08:26:22 am
Post by: Toaster on January 11, 2013, 09:12:13 am
If you're so bad at scumhunting that you are lynching whoever's newest first rather than scum then you probably deserve to lose as town
+1
Post by: Dariush on January 11, 2013, 09:34:17 am
Post by: Edosurist on January 13, 2013, 07:52:27 pm
(subtle bump)
Post by: notquitethere on January 14, 2013, 07:05:50 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on January 14, 2013, 07:12:09 pm
e: Actually before anything else I'll prod the playerlist to make sure they're all still around
Post by: Bookthras on January 15, 2013, 02:25:40 am
e: Actually before anything else I'll prod the playerlist to make sure they're all still around
Unfortunately, I expect to be increasingly busy over the coming weeks, so I won't have time to play this. Out. Good luck with it, though, it sounds interesting.
Post by: Tiruin on January 15, 2013, 04:47:09 am
Out.:'(
God speed in whatever you do Book!
Post by: TolyK on January 15, 2013, 07:57:59 am
Post by: Leafsnail on January 15, 2013, 08:35:12 am
Post by: zombie urist on January 15, 2013, 03:23:32 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 16, 2013, 08:02:43 am
Post by: Leafsnail on January 18, 2013, 03:13:25 am
Post by: Toaster on January 19, 2013, 01:00:22 am
(To be honest, I thought I had already inned at one point.)
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 19, 2013, 05:07:48 pm
Post by: notquitethere on January 19, 2013, 05:32:09 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on January 19, 2013, 08:54:21 pm
Quote
You are a "townie", a regular member of the notorious hacking group Pseudonym. You are loyal to Leafsnail, and your goal is to eliminate the rebels. You can do this by voting for a member to "dispose of" every week in the chat.
Your computer is very well protected - any attempt to break into it will backfire on the intruder. This may not be true for the leadership of Pseudonym, however, so try not to help the rebels identify them.
You win when all mafia goons are dead. You lose if half or more of the living players are mafia aligned.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 19, 2013, 09:08:37 pm
January 8th, 2030
From the testimony of ex-members it is believed that Pseudonym members talk to each other quite openly on public IRC channels. Their security lies in the extreme obscurity of their channels - for example, #kiaoi9d89sa08pjkla on a deserted gaming server. The location of the chat changes frequently, and the authorities have never been able to find one of their channels while in-use.
There are rumours that the group is currently using its channels to find and eliminate any members it believes are not loyal to the cause, but these are wholly unsubstantiated.
Deadline is in a week's time from this post.
With 13 players alive it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Since I didn't put it in the OP: Don't talk about role PMs or talk to any other player privately, regardless of your role.
Post by: notquitethere on January 19, 2013, 09:23:36 pm
Alright let's get this monkey rolling. Hands up who's scum! I say we lynch the last person to post.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 19, 2013, 09:31:21 pm
Dariush: What is your strategy?
Phantom of the Library: In your opinion, which side has the advantage in this game?
notquitethere: Since you're here, same question. Which side do you think has the advantage?
Also, were you serious about lynching the last person to post?
Toaster: Have you ever played a setup like this before? If so, how did it go?
Post by: Tiruin on January 19, 2013, 09:41:46 pm
TolyK: How do you feel about this game, given your playstyle. Supposing you're scum, how would you pick your targets?
Dariush: Supposing you're a Mason, how would you act when compared to a normal townie in reference to that MK?
Nerjin: Do you believe it is good to claim as a Mason if Town? What if Town as Mason - and how would you look at both if you're scum?
NQT: You playing by timezones, buddy? How can that one statement even help your wincondition - also, hows the feeling of being in a real game affect you? How would you approach survival in general?
Edourist: Welcome to Bay12 Mafia, you newbie :P . Seeing as this is your first official game here, I suppose you've read up the BMs and know how to act, aye? How does it feel being in an unconventional Mafia game?
Leafsnail: This isn't a bastard game, is it?
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 19, 2013, 09:48:02 pm
Deathsword: If you were mafia about to be lynched, what would you do? Would your answer change if one or more of your buddies was bussing you?
Dariush: Do you still stand by your notion that the BM-less newbies will be lynched first? (fake-edit: Also, how does it feel to be so popular?)
PotL: If you were mafia, who would you most prefer to have as your teammates?
Tiruin: If you were mafia, who would you least prefer to have as your teammates?
Post by: Leafsnail on January 19, 2013, 09:48:28 pm
Leafsnail: This isn't a bastard game, is it?Nope, an open setup is about as far as you can go from one.
Post by: Toaster on January 19, 2013, 09:49:01 pm
Dariush: Would you be more likely to knowingly vote a teammate if you were a mafioso or a mason?
TolyK: Under what circumstances would you fire off your kill D1?
Tiruin: Let's assume you're a mafioso. It's 36 hours to day end, and someone you are half sure is a mason is tied for the lynch lead. You're already voting for them. What would you do in regards to your kill and/or attempting to get them lynched?
Edosurist: I've never played with you. How would you treat a scumbuddy differently than a player that wasn't your scumbuddy?
Post by: Tiruin on January 19, 2013, 10:00:21 pm
Tiruin: If you were mafia, who would you least prefer to have as your teammates?Hmm, I guess it would be those who don't favor teamplay that much. I don't carry any favor towards anyone though in the least preferable section. Err, neither would I name names. Everyone is either neutral or favorable to me. How would this knowledge help you?
Also, what is with that new avatar? I missed your old ones. :P
Tiruin: Let's assume you're a mafioso. It's 36 hours to day end, and someone you are half sure is a mason is tied for the lynch lead. You're already voting for them. What would you do in regards to your kill and/or attempting to get them lynched?I'm guessing its Day 1? I'm not going to shoot the person but to ascertain more about the others voting for him. I mean, kill order is 4:5, with the latter having a [REBOUND_DEATH] tag. Basically, its like they're in the same group - masons can bus their other masons and lynch them if scummy enough to avoid the pretense of a KILL and townies can act to their own volition.
Its like a Vanilla game with no night!
Post by: notquitethere on January 19, 2013, 10:01:45 pm
notquitethere: Since you're here, same question. Which side do you think has the advantage?Hmm... I'd say masons, and by extension town. The masons can fairly safely kill everyone who isn't them and odds are they'll win. Mafia have the danger of killing themselves if they dox the wrong person and they can't make a voting majority.
Quote
Also, were you serious about lynching the last person to post?I'm always serious except when I'm not. I'd rather we didn't lynch any innocents but I'd also rather we didn't have too many lurkers.
Tiruin
NQT: You playing by timezones, buddy? How can that one statement even help your wincondition?Hah I was just getting the ball rolling. The game runs better for all players if lurking is kept to a minimum so any incentive...
Quote
Hows the feeling of being in a real game affect you? How would you approach survival in general?Well I'm looking forward to the challenge. The benefit this time is I won't get nightkilled on Night One ;D. But I guess there's still the danger of being doxed.
In all seriousness, this game is like any mafia game: you gotta ask questions and respond reasonably and hope the scum don't think you're too dangerous to live.
Urist Imiknorris
notquitethere, why the arbitrary lynch condition? Also, if you're not quite there, where are you?The condition isn't arbitrary: just an incentive to get people to post. If I'm not quite there, then I guess I must be here.
Nerjin: Do you think running a game gives you an edge in playing a game?
Toaster: If you're playing as a mason would you try to indicate to the townfolk that you're a mason. If so, how?
Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?
Post by: Tiruin on January 19, 2013, 10:04:28 pm
Also,
Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?
Post by: Toaster on January 19, 2013, 10:09:19 pm
Tiruin: Let's assume you're a mafioso. It's 36 hours to day end, and someone you are half sure is a mason is tied for the lynch lead. You're already voting for them. What would you do in regards to your kill and/or attempting to get them lynched?I'm guessing its Day 1? I'm not going to shoot the person but to ascertain more about the others voting for him. I mean, kill order is 4:5, with the latter having a [REBOUND_DEATH] tag. Basically, its like they're in the same group - masons can bus their other masons and lynch them if scummy enough to avoid the pretense of a KILL and townies can act to their own volition.
Its like a Vanilla game with no night!
What if it's, say, D4 with one person from each group lynched, and no mafiakills used? What would make you be more aggressive with your kill?
Notquitethere:
Toaster: If you're playing as a mason would you try to indicate to the townfolk that you're a mason. If so, how?
No. What would the benefit of me doing that be? Best result of a mason claim that people believe is that it prevents your lynch because you get daykilled first.
Looking for how I would indicate my masonhood to determine if I'm safe to kill?
Post by: zombie urist on January 19, 2013, 10:33:44 pm
Obolisk: If you were mafia, how would you decide to use your daykills?
Phantom: How do you think the lack of chats will affect the game?
Hmm... I could've sworn that I saw Edosurist in a game before.
Dariush: What is your strategy?These questions are bad.
Phantom of the Library: In your opinion, which side has the advantage in this game?
notquitethere: Since you're here, same question. Which side do you think has the advantage?
Also, were you serious about lynching the last person to post?
Toaster: Have you ever played a setup like this before? If so, how did it go?
Post by: notquitethere on January 19, 2013, 10:36:14 pm
@NQT: Doxxed?Day-killed by secret mafia PM-ing. I refer you to:
There is no night phase so the mafia do not get a nightkill, but instead they have another ability. At any time any mafia member can send in a daykill (or "dox") action against a town player. If that player is a mason, they are eliminated. However, if that player is a townie then the mafia member is eliminated instead (in this case no information is given about who the mafia member targetted).Or were you questioning my spelling? Maybe 'doxxed' is better than 'doxed'.
Quote
Also,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?
Toaster
Looking for how I would indicate my masonhood to determine if I'm safe to kill?Yes, you've uncovered my dastardly plan! Actually, I agree with your point that revealing your mason identity (if you were a mason) would normally be a bad plan.
Phantom: In analysing other player's posts would you find distancing or buddying up more suspicious?
Dariush: Have you ever played a mafia game with so many other players? Would you say playing with 14 is more challenging than 9?
Edosurist: How would you characterise your mafia play-style, if you've played the game before?
Zombie Urist: What constitutes a good scum-hunting question?
Post by: Toaster on January 19, 2013, 10:44:50 pm
Toaster: Have you ever played a setup like this before? If so, how did it go?
Nope. Pretty sure this is the first time this has been done on B12, and my off-B12 experience is entirely vanilla.
Notquitethere:
ToasterLooking for how I would indicate my masonhood to determine if I'm safe to kill?Yes, you've uncovered my dastardly plan! Actually, I agree with your point that revealing your mason identity (if you were a mason) would normally be a bad plan.
So why did you ask?
Also, since you have my attention- Would you make a tie at day-end to save a mafia-buddy? Mason-buddy?
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 19, 2013, 11:07:55 pm
Obolisk: If you were mafia, how would you decide to use your daykills?Look for anyone who seems very sure about someone's alignment.
Edosurist: Let's assume you're mafia. You have only one remaining ally, while there are still 3 towies and 3 masons. You're taking a bit of heat. Would you bus your scumbuddy to save yourself?
ZU: Let's assume you're scum. One non-mafia player is taking the game by storm, and is considered by most to be not scum. He has allready found and lynched one of the mafia, and is suspicious of two more of your team, neither of them being you. On the otherhand, another nonscum player is adamantly defending another player, attacking anyone who tries to push him. Who do you use the daykill on?
Toaster: Let's assume you're a mason. One of your masonbuddies has made a bonehead mistake, and is now under fire from most of the nonmasons. The rest of the masons mostly ignoring him, instead scumhunting elsewhere. It seems like you might be able to make a case against one of the mafia, but you don't have anything too convincing. The day is closer to the end than you would like. What do you do?
Post by: notquitethere on January 19, 2013, 11:15:07 pm
So why did you ask?Well I know what I think is the right course of action. I wanted to know what you thought.
Quote
Also, since you have my attention- Would you make a tie at day-end to save a mafia-buddy? Mason-buddy?Obviously yes if I were scum: according to the rules, in the case of an absolute tie, the mafia get to decide who gets lynched.
Let's run through the mason scenario in a bit more detail:
I am a mason and I have the option of voting for a non-mason to force a tie. If I don't force a tie, another mason will be lyched. What do I do?
Option one: I vote for a non-mason, creating a tie (assuming no plurality vote, whatever that is). If the person I voted for is scum, the scum will kill the mason. Me forcing a draw reveals me to be mason to the scum (as town wouldn't do this), and so they'll probably have the mason I was trying to save lynched anyway, as it's a safe mason-kill for them. So whether or not the person I vote for is scum, the mafia will lynch the mason I was trying to save.
Option two: I don't vote and the mason gets lynched, revealing them to be mason. We're one mason down and no one knows I'm mason.
Option three: I bandwagon on the mason kill. A mason will die but people will suspect me less as a mason.
Whichever way I look at it, the mason dies. Option three is probably best because it might make me look town to scum, potentially resulting in a rebound-kill.
Obolisk0430 and TolyK: do you think my reasoning here is sound?
Post by: Tiruin on January 19, 2013, 11:53:44 pm
Tiruin:1:2:1...It depends on the situation and how the players I'm facing act. I'd generally be more aggressive when I can be sure that the attention isn't on me. And if it is, with no way out, that's only when I use my MK.Tiruin: Let's assume you're a mafioso. It's 36 hours to day end, and someone you are half sure is a mason is tied for the lynch lead. You're already voting for them. What would you do in regards to your kill and/or attempting to get them lynched?I'm guessing its Day 1? I'm not going to shoot the person but to ascertain more about the others voting for him. I mean, kill order is 4:5, with the latter having a [REBOUND_DEATH] tag. Basically, its like they're in the same group - masons can bus their other masons and lynch them if scummy enough to avoid the pretense of a KILL and townies can act to their own volition.
Its like a Vanilla game with no night!
What if it's, say, D4 with one person from each group lynched, and no mafiakills used? What would make you be more aggressive with your kill?
NQT
Err, I was expecting a No. And...you're diverting onto Captain Ford?QuoteAlso,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?
Post by: Toaster on January 20, 2013, 12:22:43 am
Obviously yes if I were scum: according to the rules, in the case of an absolute tie, the mafia get to decide who gets lynched.
I see.
Let's run through the mason scenario in a bit more detail:
Fair enough.
Post by: notquitethere on January 20, 2013, 12:24:21 am
Err, I was expecting a No. And...you're diverting onto Captain Ford?If you'd prefer I can reply in complete seriousness from now on. To make it absolutely clear: I am not making any sort of claim about anyone, least of all myself. Also, apologies, I meant 'Tiruin', not 'Captain Ford'- no bizarre diversion intended!
Post by: Toaster on January 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am
Post by: notquitethere on January 20, 2013, 12:30:25 am
Post by: TolyK on January 20, 2013, 02:27:54 am
Let's begin.Given my playstyle, I'd probably die as scum on the second or third day. :D
TolyK: How do you feel about this game, given your playstyle. Supposing you're scum, how would you pick your targets?
But supposing I were scum, I'd probably look for people who seemed to not go after each other much/played coallied, which is basically the safest strategy. I'd prefer lynching targets to killing them, since that's safer, and is more likely to hit town rather than mason, which means that kills would be statistically safer.
TolyK: Under what circumstances would you fire off your kill D1?If there were obviously people mason-buddying (and I were scum), I'd think about firing off my kill D1, but on the other hand it could also be a trap.
As I said just above, I'd prefer lynching folks to killing them. If I slipped really badly, I'd probably go for a dox on somebody (statistically bad - 44% chance of hitting), probably someone who's not voting me.
ToasterNot quite:So why did you ask?Well I know what I think is the right course of action. I wanted to know what you thought.QuoteAlso, since you have my attention- Would you make a tie at day-end to save a mafia-buddy? Mason-buddy?Obviously yes if I were scum: according to the rules, in the case of an absolute tie, the mafia get to decide who gets lynched.
Let's run through the mason scenario in a bit more detail:
I am a mason and I have the option of voting for a non-mason to force a tie. If I don't force a tie, another mason will be lyched. What do I do?
Option one: I vote for a non-mason, creating a tie (assuming no plurality vote, whatever that is). If the person I voted for is scum, the scum will kill the mason. Me forcing a draw reveals me to be mason to the scum (as town wouldn't do this), and so they'll probably have the mason I was trying to save lynched anyway, as it's a safe mason-kill for them. So whether or not the person I vote for is scum, the mafia will lynch the mason I was trying to save.
Option two: I don't vote and the mason gets lynched, revealing them to be mason. We're one mason down and no one knows I'm mason.
Option three: I bandwagon on the mason kill. A mason will die but people will suspect me less as a mason.
Whichever way I look at it, the mason dies. Option three is probably best because it might make me look town to scum, potentially resulting in a rebound-kill.
Obolisk0430 and TolyK: do you think my reasoning here is sound?
Option 1's logic assumes the lynchee is a certified mason. If not, you could be either scum (who wants to even the votes to cause confusion) or just some townie who thinks the other person is more scummy.
Option 3's "good" part also has a flipside - town move you closer to scum if you obviously bandwagon. Or, nothing can happen at all, which is basically the same as Option 2 except that you helped kill a fellow mason.
Hold on...
It's the townie who gets the passive protection, not the mason, so it wouldn't "potentially result(...) in a rebound-kill", rather "make you a higher-risk kill target, and make you a higher-payoff lynch target".
Edosurist, you haven't posted yet, and I haven't seen you before. What practice do you have before this game? And, more importantly, what do you think is harder to play as, town or mason? (Give your reasoning).
Phantom: What do you think about this statement: "People tend to give examples of what they'd do if they were of a different alignment than they really are (if they are asked), and tend to ask questions that put the addressed person into their alignment. The first part is to throw people off their scent, while the second part is to get suggestions on how others would play their alignment." What part is true (if any), and what part is logically incorrect (if any)?
I have some other questions, but not enough time... whatevs.
Post by: Teneb on January 20, 2013, 09:13:53 am
Deathsword: If you were mafia about to be lynched, what would you do? Would your answer change if one or more of your buddies was bussing you?Were I mafia and was about to be lynched, and didn't think I could make the other players change their minds, I would perform a kill. Being bussed wouldn't change this answer.
Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?By not being scum.
More seriously, however: scum should act as they do in most games, which means they should act like town. I doubt the lack of a team-chat will change the scum's behaviour when it comes to this.
ZU: If you were scum, what players wouldn't you want on your team? Why?
NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.
obolisk: I don't think I've seen you around here before. Have you ever played a setup like this?
Post by: Nerjin on January 20, 2013, 10:38:50 am
Nerjin: Do you believe it is good to claim as a Mason if Town? What if Town as Mason - and how would you look at both if you're scum?
As town claiming mason would likely get you lynched via the masons. Claiming Town as Mason... Hm... I think that might work. Some more hot-headed scum may go after you but more likely they won't do a thing until they are forced to by bad odds.
If I were scum I wouldn't trust either claim. So to shorten all of this: Town to Mason: Bad. Mason to Town: Less Bad. Scum-thought: Don't trust.
Nerjin: Do you think running a game gives you an edge in playing a game?
... Yep. I believe that running a vanilla game gives me a huge edge in this free-form one. Actually wait... No, no I don't. But seriously though I still feel I'm incredibly bad at Mafia compared to some of the older members on the forum. I believe I'm better than the newer ones just by the point that I've played a few games.
NQT I have a question for you. Why so interested in scum advice?
Nerjin: Do you think it will be more fun being a mason or a regular town?
Town isn't normal if you ask me in this game. But semantics aside I believe it'd be more fun to play as Mason if simply for the fact that you can die at any time. With town you have a week to save yourself. With Mason you can die at any time. I'm a gambler and I like taking risks. What can I say...
Post by: notquitethere on January 20, 2013, 01:52:36 pm
Deathsword
NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.It's efficient to get more than one person's perspective on the same issue, or do you disagree? If you'll look, I've asked everyone at least one question and most of them are different, which is more than can be said for some players. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted my friendly joking with Teruin as an earnest attempt to buddy up. Was that a deliberate twisting of the truth, Deathsword?
Nerjin
NQT I have a question for you. Why so interested in scum advice?I'm interested in hunting scum, and asking how a player would play as scum seems like a pretty good line of enquiry. Do you disagree?
Post by: Leafsnail on January 20, 2013, 01:56:51 pm
Dariush: Captain Ford (1)
Tiruin:
Nerjin:
Phantom of The Library: Toaster (1)
Captain Ford:
TolyK: Tiruin (1)
Edosurist: obolisk0430, TolyK (2)
Deathsword: notquitethere (1)
Urist Imiknorris:
notquitethere: Urist Imiknorris, Deathsword, Nerjin <--- L-4
zombie urist:
Toaster:
obolisk0430:
Not voting: Dariush, Phantom of The Library, Edosurist, zombie urist (4)
I'll try to give mod updates roughly every 24 hours, and I'll say if anyone hasn't posted since the last one.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 20, 2013, 01:58:32 pm
On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?Why would I want to do that? There's no alignment in this game that could benefit from pretending to be scum.
Also, apologies, I meant 'Tiruin', not 'Captain Ford'- no bizarre diversion intended!Oh, that makes more sense now. Except the question still doesn't make any sense.
zombie urist:
Why?Dariush: What is your strategy?These questions are bad.
Phantom of the Library: In your opinion, which side has the advantage in this game?
notquitethere: Since you're here, same question. Which side do you think has the advantage?
Also, were you serious about lynching the last person to post?
Toaster: Have you ever played a setup like this before? If so, how did it go?
Nerjin:
Really? Wouldn't the masons be outing themselves if they went after you?Nerjin: Do you believe it is good to claim as a Mason if Town? What if Town as Mason - and how would you look at both if you're scum?
As town claiming mason would likely get you lynched via the masons. Claiming Town as Mason... Hm... I think that might work. Some more hot-headed scum may go after you but more likely they won't do a thing until they are forced to by bad odds.
If I were scum I wouldn't trust either claim. So to shorten all of this: Town to Mason: Bad. Mason to Town: Less Bad. Scum-thought: Don't trust.
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 20, 2013, 02:16:28 pm
Deathsword: I haven't played in a setup like this before, but I have been in a few games on this forum before.
NQT: If I understand correctly, then yes, I do agree with your reasoning.
Post by: notquitethere on January 20, 2013, 02:37:08 pm
notquitethere:Hah! And to compound my idiocy, I accidentally omitted the 'not' from the above question, which were editing allowed I would have fixed. Here's a better phrased question: is there any benefit in a townie claiming to be a mason or vice versa?On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?Why would I want to do that? There's no alignment in this game that could benefit from pretending to be scum.
Post by: Teneb on January 20, 2013, 02:51:00 pm
DeathswordCopying questions others have asked you in the same game or those you have asked to others is extremely lazy. You may have asked each player a question, but the number of questions matter little if their content is poor, as the usual case with RVS question (as their point is to get the game going). One can type a wall of text and say absolutely nothing at all. And when Tiruin accused you of buddying up to me you were quite quick to deflect it with sarcasm and a repeated question directed at Ford/Tiruin (you claim to have meant to ask Tiruin that, instead of Ford, but I think you are just trying to cover up your slip).NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.It's efficient to get more than one person's perspective on the same issue, or do you disagree? If you'll look, I've asked everyone at least one question and most of them are different, which is more than can be said for some players.
Quote from: NQT
I'm sorry that you misinterpreted my friendly joking with Teruin as an earnest attempt to buddy up. Was that a deliberate twisting of the truth, Deathsword?No, I do indeed you were trying to buddy up with me, and then when I accused you of that together with a vote you were quick to vote me back. Why so jumpy, scum? Afraid you slipped and didn't cover up properly?
Post by: Dariush on January 20, 2013, 03:12:00 pm
Post by: notquitethere on January 20, 2013, 03:29:16 pm
Copying questions others have asked you in the same game or those you have asked to others is extremely lazy.Okay, I take your point: I will be a beacon of originality from here on in :D. I still think it's better to engage as many people as possible.
Quote
No, I do indeed you were trying to buddy up with me, and then when I accused you of that together with a vote you were quick to vote me back. Why so jumpy, scum? Afraid you slipped and didn't cover up properly?Nice try Deathsword, but you're reading far too much into things. I said "Scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here!" as a joking quip to Tiruin: of course I wasn't seriously trying to address you, let alone buddy up. Your hyper-paranoid response seemed to warrant a pressure vote, but I wouldn't read too much into it as we're still in the random vote stage.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 20, 2013, 04:31:49 pm
No. Both townies and mafia have an incentive to claim mason. Masons can't tell which they are, so they should regard it as a nulltell. Masons could also claim it as a double-bluff, so a mason claim should universally be treated as a nulltell. Everyone has an incentive to claim it, and so it doesn't give anyone any new information.notquitethere:Hah! And to compound my idiocy, I accidentally omitted the 'not' from the above question, which were editing allowed I would have fixed. Here's a better phrased question: is there any benefit in a townie claiming to be a mason or vice versa?On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?Why would I want to do that? There's no alignment in this game that could benefit from pretending to be scum.
On that note, I'm a mason. 8)
Post by: Captain Ford on January 20, 2013, 05:36:58 pm
You must not have thought that through completely. If I saw you do that, I wouldn't hesitate to vote for your lynch.QuoteAlso, since you have my attention- Would you make a tie at day-end to save a mafia-buddy? Mason-buddy?Obviously yes if I were scum: according to the rules, in the case of an absolute tie, the mafia get to decide who gets lynched.
Deathsword: You were awfully quick to jump on the bandwagon, weren't you?
You also jumped pretty hard when notquitethere named you in one of his posts. Seems like you don't want anyone thinking you're on a team.
Post by: zombie urist on January 20, 2013, 05:42:03 pm
ZU: Let's assume you're scum. One non-mafia player is taking the game by storm, and is considered by most to be not scum. He has all ready found and lynched one of the mafia, and is suspicious of two more of your team, neither of them being you. On the other hand, another nonscum player is adamantly defending another player, attacking anyone who tries to push him. Who do you use the daykill on?No one, because its not necessary.
ZU: If you were scum, what players wouldn't you want on your team? Why?The new players because they are more likely to get lynched.
zombie urist:Too broad and don't really help much.Why?...These questions are bad.
On that note, I'm a mason. 8)Hmm... Captain Ford
Post by: Captain Ford on January 20, 2013, 06:49:55 pm
Hmm... Captain FordAre you going to explain that?
Post by: Captain Ford on January 20, 2013, 07:07:53 pm
Without an explanation from you, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. That makes you a better lead than Deathsword by a mile.
Post by: zombie urist on January 20, 2013, 07:32:39 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on January 20, 2013, 08:03:02 pm
I made that statement following a paragraph that said "mason claims don't mean anything". Taken together, it means that statement was meaningless.
Taking my statement out of context ... really hurts. Damn it. I have an indescribable burning hatred for people that do that. It makes it very hard to have an intelligent conversation when everything you say is twisted. It makes one feel powerless, and I regard it as the most underhanded thing a person can do to someone else.
I still feel my argument is valid, and that your certainty is only justifiable if you're scum. If you think I'm wrong, explain why.
Post by: TolyK on January 20, 2013, 11:50:17 pm
Replying "not quite" to "notquitethere" is kinda funny, but I've noticed that he didn't reply or take notice of my reply to him.
Not quite:NQT, do you agree that your logic is not quite sound, as explained above? Also, forgetting "class perks" (mixing up who has protection) typically happens more to people who don't have that alignment, don't you think?
Option 1's logic assumes the lynchee is a certified mason. If not, you could be either scum (who wants to even the votes to cause confusion) or just some townie who thinks the other person is more scummy.
Option 3's "good" part also has a flipside - town move you closer to scum if you obviously bandwagon. Or, nothing can happen at all, which is basically the same as Option 2 except that you helped kill a fellow mason.
Hold on...
It's the townie who gets the passive protection, not the mason, so it wouldn't "potentially result(...) in a rebound-kill", rather "make you a higher-risk kill target, and make you a higher-payoff lynch target".
Since Phantom seems to be MIA, and since Capain Ford seems to be rocking in logic (:P) I'll let him answer this question:
Quote from: TolyK
Phantom: What do you think about this statement: "People tend to give examples of what they'd do if they were of a different alignment than they really are (if they are asked), and tend to ask questions that put the addressed person into their alignment. The first part is to throw people off their scent, while the second part is to get suggestions on how others would play their alignment." What part is true (if any), and what part is logically incorrect (if any)?
Post by: Toaster on January 21, 2013, 12:07:13 am
Obolisk:
Toaster: Let's assume you're a mason. One of your masonbuddies has made a bonehead mistake, and is now under fire from most of the nonmasons. The rest of the masons mostly ignoring him, instead scumhunting elsewhere. It seems like you might be able to make a case against one of the mafia, but you don't have anything too convincing. The day is closer to the end than you would like. What do you do?
It depends on what you mean by "might be able to make a case." Also, not sure how I'd know for sure someone was mafia. Reading that as "someone I strongly suspect" I would likely present my case on both parties, then vote whichever one was more scummy, though with a bias against said mason buddy.
Ford:
You can't be stupid enough to actually think I meant that, so that must mean that you're intentionally misrepresenting what I was saying.
Everything you say, joke or not, will be analyzed here.
Taking my statement out of context ... really hurts. Damn it. I have an indescribable burning hatred for people that do that. It makes it very hard to have an intelligent conversation when everything you say is twisted. It makes one feel powerless, and I regard it as the most underhanded thing a person can do to someone else.
I still feel my argument is valid, and that your certainty is only justifiable if you're scum. If you think I'm wrong, explain why.
For example, this is an appeal to emotion. You're trying to guilt him away from voting you instead of convincing him you're a bad person to vote.
Is it because you're not a bad person to vote and don't have an argument otherwise? It just might be.
zombie urist: Let me put it another way. Unless my argument is flawed, the only way you could be certain I'm worth lynching is if you're scum.
Without an explanation from you, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. That makes you a better lead than Deathsword by a mile.
Also, this is a knee-jerky OMGUS. The double post makes you look just a bit panicky.
Post by: notquitethere on January 21, 2013, 12:34:42 am
Going through stuff again:Yeah, sorry- got a bit side tracked. To clarify and reply:
Replying "not quite" to "notquitethere" is kinda funny, but I've noticed that he didn't reply or take notice of my reply to him.Not quite:NQT, do you agree that your logic is not quite sound, as explained above? Also, forgetting "class perks" (mixing up who has protection) typically happens more to people who don't have that alignment, don't you think
Option 1's logic assumes the lynchee is a certified mason. If not, you could be either scum (who wants to even the votes to cause confusion) or just some townie who thinks the other person is more scummy.
Option 3's "good" part also has a flipside - town move you closer to scum if you obviously bandwagon. Or, nothing can happen at all, which is basically the same as Option 2 except that you helped kill a fellow mason.
Hold on...
It's the townie who gets the passive protection, not the mason, so it wouldn't "potentially result(...) in a rebound-kill", rather "make you a higher-risk kill target, and make you a higher-payoff lynch target".
The scenario assumes that it's this game we're talking about and not vanilla mafia and it's near the end of the week and you are a mason and a fellow mason is about to be lynched and you can save him back voting for a second person, forcing a last-minute draw. In this game, an absolute draw is decided in secret by the mafia. You're right that if you were to even up the votes then it might make you look scummy (I think that was Ford's argument), or it might make you look like town eager to prevent someone who they don't think is scum being lynched. But I think that as masons are the only non-scum that know for sure who is a mason or not, to the scum you will look most like a mason if you try and even out the vote at the last minute. Either way, because the scum know who they are, they're most likely to choose the mason to lynch rather than the patsy you voted for.
You make a good point that option 3 is likely to make you look like a bandwagoning scum to the townies, so maybe option 2 is the best.
This is a pretty convoluted counterfactual, but hopefully I'm making myself clear enough. As for the perk mix-around, this is only the second forum-mafia game I've played, so some misunderstandings are probably to be expected. I feel a bit safer and clearer now than I did before, if that's any consolation. Thanks for setting me straight, Tolyk... :D
Post by: Tiruin on January 21, 2013, 03:15:49 am
On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?
Post by: Dariush on January 21, 2013, 08:41:06 am
Dariush: What is your strategy?For a start, vote you. Like this: Ford.
Dariush: Supposing you're a Mason, how would you act when compared to a normal townie in reference to that MK?MK being...? I'll assume it's 'morningkill' and the answer is... do absolutely nothing. When I'm town, I'm hunting scum regardless of whether I know for a fact that some of the other people are town as well or not.
Dariush: Would you be more likely to knowingly vote a teammate if you were a mafioso or a mason?As scum. Voting a mason serves no purpose whatsoever. Throwing off a scumhunt by bussing a scummate may be subtly brought up later while you must rely on scumteam being sufficiently smart to even notice you voting that mason.
Dariush: Have you ever played a mafia game with so many other players? Would you say playing with 14 is more challenging than 9?Yes, and even more. (I think the maximum was 16) No, I wouldn't, because having more people leaves more breathing space, regardless of your alignment.
No. Both townies and mafia have an incentive to claim mason. Masons can't tell which they are, so they should regard it as a nulltell. Masons could also claim it as a double-bluff, so a mason claim should universally be treated as a nulltell. Everyone has an incentive to claim it, and so it doesn't give anyone any new information.Wrong answer. Anyone fakeclaiming mason will be suspected by a whole team of confirmed towns (masons, that is). Moreover, the sudden attention of those masons may incriminate them for scum. Finally, fakeclaiming while being town is just a bad idea in general.
On that note, I'm a mason. 8)
zombie urist: Let me put it another way. Unless my argument is flawed, the only way you could be certain I'm worth lynching is if you're scum.And now you're engaging in the worst flavor of hipocrisy. You say ZU can't be certain that you are scum, but you are certain that his vote is a lynch vote and not a pressure one. Why did you disregard the latter possibility out of hand?
Without an explanation from you, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. That makes you a better lead than Deathsword by a mile.
ZU, why do you keep speaking in one-liners?
NQT, why did you vote DS twice in the space of two lines?
Tolyk, why do you think it's worthwhile to engage in RVS on 107th reply in the thread?
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 21, 2013, 05:57:28 pm
I'm not certain, but I think you're scum claiming mason and not the other possibilities.Would you like to share your reasoning behind this?
Tiruin:
What the hell are you even doing.On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?
It helps me in the same way the knowledge gained from my question to Phantom helps me. But why won't you name names?Tiruin: If you were mafia, who would you least prefer to have as your teammates?Hmm, I guess it would be those who don't favor teamplay that much. I don't carry any favor towards anyone though in the least preferable section. Err, neither would I name names. Everyone is either neutral or favorable to me. How would this knowledge help you?
Quote
Also, what is with that new avatar? I missed your old ones. :PSignavatar exploded, so I had to go back to a single avatar. I chose Trickster Mode Lord English for the sheer absurdity.
Dariush: You missed my question:
Dariush: Do you still stand by your notion that the BM-less newbies will be lynched first? (fake-edit: Also, how does it feel to be so popular?)
Also, what are your reads on notquitethere and obolisk?
Leafsnail: Could you please prod Edosurist and Phantom of the Library?
Post by: Teneb on January 21, 2013, 06:17:43 pm
DeathswordI am sorry, but didn't you throw a softball question at me asking for advice on how to play as scum?Copying questions others have asked you in the same game or those you have asked to others is extremely lazy.Okay, I take your point: I will be a beacon of originality from here on in :D. I still think it's better to engage as many people as possible.QuoteNo, I do indeed you were trying to buddy up with me, and then when I accused you of that together with a vote you were quick to vote me back. Why so jumpy, scum? Afraid you slipped and didn't cover up properly?Nice try Deathsword, but you're reading far too much into things. I said "Scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here!" as a joking quip to Tiruin: of course I wasn't seriously trying to address you, let alone buddy up. Your hyper-paranoid response seemed to warrant a pressure vote, but I wouldn't read too much into it as we're still in the random vote stage.
Those questions are done with the intent of making the player trust you, to make them your buddies. And you took the opportunity to get some advice on how to play your role, since, looking at the BM, you didn't play as scum and thus never had advice from a scum IC.
It has been pointed out by another, but you really wanted to vote me, didn't you? What could make you so nervous as to keep voting me over and over in a single post? Being scum, of course.
Deathsword: You were awfully quick to jump on the bandwagon, weren't you?
You also jumped pretty hard when notquitethere named you in one of his posts. Seems like you don't want anyone thinking you're on a team.
And you were quite quick to jump on me for attacking NQT, weren't you? And just as quick to shift your vote to do an OMGUS.
NQT made a slip. When Tiruin accused him of buddying up to me, he immediately tried to diver attention by asking you a question, and then quickly shifting that question to Tiruin. He was quick to OMGUS me for a pressure vote and a mild attack, and now he is jumpier than ever. He is scum, and you, Ford, might be too.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 21, 2013, 07:25:15 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on January 21, 2013, 08:01:20 pm
Toaster:
Everything you say, joke or not, will be analyzed here.
*sigh* I overreacted. It's safe to say that I'm on edge for reasons that have nothing to do with the game.
Quote
Taking my statement out of context ... really hurts. Damn it. I have an indescribable burning hatred for people that do that. It makes it very hard to have an intelligent conversation when everything you say is twisted. It makes one feel powerless, and I regard it as the most underhanded thing a person can do to someone else.
I still feel my argument is valid, and that your certainty is only justifiable if you're scum. If you think I'm wrong, explain why.
For example, this is an appeal to emotion. You're trying to guilt him away from voting you instead of convincing him you're a bad person to vote.
Is it because you're not a bad person to vote and don't have an argument otherwise? It just might be.
That's not the reason I brought it up. I realized that people were going to notice I was upset, and I wanted them to know why, because the reasons are immaterial to my alignment.
If you actually felt sorry for me, then I apologize. That was not my intention.
Quote
zombie urist: Let me put it another way. Unless my argument is flawed, the only way you could be certain I'm worth lynching is if you're scum.
Without an explanation from you, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. That makes you a better lead than Deathsword by a mile.
Also, this is a knee-jerky OMGUS. The double post makes you look just a bit panicky.
Yeah, it was. I was pissed.
And if you think I would panic because of a single vote, then you must have a very low opinion of me indeed.
Dariush:
No. Both townies and mafia have an incentive to claim mason. Masons can't tell which they are, so they should regard it as a nulltell. Masons could also claim it as a double-bluff, so a mason claim should universally be treated as a nulltell. Everyone has an incentive to claim it, and so it doesn't give anyone any new information.Wrong answer. Anyone fakeclaiming mason will be suspected by a whole team of confirmed towns (masons, that is). Moreover, the sudden attention of those masons may incriminate them for scum. Finally, fakeclaiming while being town is just a bad idea in general.
On that note, I'm a mason. 8)
I'm not wrong. Your argument is flawed.
You said "the sudden attention of those masons may incriminate them for scum." But if everyone simply ignores it, then that doesn't happen. Since paying attention to it hurts town, and everyone is trying to appear town, then logically everyone should ignore it. Anyone who doesn't is just playing poorly.
Let me put it another way:
1. You would have to be stupid to fakeclaim mason.
2. Both scum and town are equally likely to be stupid.
Ergo: Both scum and town are equally likely to fakeclaim mason.
If anything, town is more likely to fakeclaim mason simply because there's more of them.
That said, you haven't actually accused me of fakeclaiming. Which is smart, because you'd either be lying or stupid if you said you knew for a fact what my alignment was. (If you want me to explain that one too, just ask. It's also not wrong)
There, I just gave you three good reasons for why mason claims are bullshit and should be ignored, and your argument only helped to prove my point.
Sidenote: And even if you don't agree with it, it's what I believed when I wrote it, which means that it can only mean exactly what I said it means. If you think otherwise then you fail at thinking.
zombie urist: Let me put it another way. Unless my argument is flawed, the only way you could be certain I'm worth lynching is if you're scum.And now you're engaging in the worst flavor of hipocrisy. You say ZU can't be certain that you are scum, but you are certain that his vote is a lynch vote and not a pressure one. Why did you disregard the latter possibility out of hand?
Without an explanation from you, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. That makes you a better lead than Deathsword by a mile.
First off, do you scumhunt by adding, "but there might be another explanation" to the end of everything you say?
ZU didn't ask me anything, and he didn't investigate any other suspects. How the hell was I supposed to take it?
It sure looked an awful lot like he was trying to convince others to lynch me based on a misquoting of something I said.
Tolyk: I saw your question, but my brain is hurting. I'll answer it when I'm feeling better.
Deathsword: I'll get back to you too.
Now let me be clear about this:
- The mason claim was facetious. It was not made in full seriousness. You should consider my alignment unclaimed.
Post by: Phantom of The Library on January 21, 2013, 09:00:28 pm
Phantom of the Library: In your opinion, which side has the advantage in this game?
Data says that scum have the advantage as in most games, although it's more slight than usual.
PotL: If you were mafia, who would you most prefer to have as your teammates?
You, Tiruin, Book if he was still in the game, and Toaster since he isn't. I've seen you all play and I know I can get along with all of you well and you're all fun to talk to.
Not that I would have a choice about Tir, as we already know that he's scum. :P
Phanton: Assume you're a mason. How heavily would you grill your fellow masons to dissuade the mafia that they are a fellow mason and therefore safe to kill?
Phanton isn't here, but as his neutral good twin, I can speak for him.
Probably about the same as everybody else that I don't see as scum, too much grilling and I risk getting them lynched by accident, too little and it looks suspicious.
Phantom: How do you think the lack of chats will affect the game?
It'll have two effects:
One: It will balance out the game a little in favor of the town as the scum won't clearly be able to communicate who they want to kill to each other, resulting in a bit more chaos and less information for them, which is all the better for the town.
Two: It'll make the game more boring. Chats are one of the best part of mafia.
Phantom: In analysing other player's posts would you find distancing or buddying up more suspicious?
Distancing, I've never seen a scum player actually try to buddy up to somebody.
Phantom: What do you think about this statement: "People tend to give examples of what they'd do if they were of a different alignment than they really are (if they are asked), and tend to ask questions that put the addressed person into their alignment. The first part is to throw people off their scent, while the second part is to get suggestions on how others would play their alignment." What part is true (if any), and what part is logically incorrect (if any)?
Depends on the person, some might do one; others might do something different. I've seen it go either way with about an even split. Although newbies do tend to try to get suggestions more often, even if it doesn't relate to their current alignment.
notquitethere:
notquitethere, why the arbitrary lynch condition? Also, if you're not quite there, where are you?The condition isn't arbitrary: just an incentive to get people to post.
Or, it's a good way to try and get in a free lynch as scum. Most people already policy-lynch lurkers, so this has no point. Besides killing a someone for no reason other than living in a different timezone.
Unvote
DeathswordNQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.It's efficient to get more than one person's perspective on the same issue, or do you disagree? If you'll look, I've asked everyone at least one question and most of them are different, which is more than can be said for some players. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted my friendly joking with Teruin as an earnest attempt to buddy up. Was that a deliberate twisting of the truth, Deathsword?
Why the OMGUS?
Tiruin:
What the hell are you even doing.On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?
Post by: Edosurist on January 21, 2013, 09:43:07 pm
Post by: Edosurist on January 21, 2013, 10:43:48 pm
@Tiruin
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Welcome to Bay12 Mafia, you newbie :P . Seeing as this is your first official game here, I suppose you've read up the BMs and know how to act, aye? How does it feel being in an unconventional Mafia game?No different, really. Find scum, that’s what I care about.
@Toaster
Quote
I've never played with you. How would you treat a scumbuddy differently than a player that wasn't your scumbuddy?Never played with you because I’m new to mafia on this forum. Already seeing the start of this game, the site meta is very different than what I’m used to. (I blabber on about this at the end of the post). To answer your question, you try not to treat your scumbuddies differently. That means, you don’t overreact to their posts, but you don’t ignore them.
@NQT
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How would you characterise your mafia play-style, if you've played the game before?Do you mean my meta playing as a mafioso, or just my overall meta? For the former, I’ve never completed a game as mafia in a forum based game, so I can’t share anything there. As town, though, I use logic and processes when I can for PoE. I often consider vote placement on wagons and counter wagons that arise. I’ve been known to tell people to be more “pro-town”, or talk directly to “town” as a collective, both of which people seem to find scummy…
@obo
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Edosurist: Let's assume you're mafia. You have only one remaining ally, while there are still 3 towies and 3 masons. You're taking a bit of heat. Would you bus your scumbuddy to save yourself?Generally, no. At that point, if I did successfully bus my partner, I probably wouldn’t get any towncreds. Basically, I’d still be a likely lynch, and I’d be greatly outnumbered, so no point.
@TK
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Edosurist, you haven't posted yet, and I haven't seen you before. What practice do you have before this game? And, more importantly, what do you think is harder to play as, town or mason?It’s clearly harder to play as mason. You have to look like a townie so you don’t get sniped by mafia during the day, possibly come to your partner’s aid (if you think it’s worth it), and you still have to scumhunt. That’s three duties as opposed to one. Yes, you can confirm 1/3 of the town, but you give off those relationship tells and chainsaw tells that are generally scummy, and the mafia can spot you for it.
Here comes my rant/blabbering:
As I said, this site function/meta is different than I'm used to on MafiaScum. The site is less cluttered and has better aesthetics than the Bay12 site. This alone is making it slightly harder to read rather than skim. Also, RQS is considered anti-town there, mainly because it leads to rolefishing and other assorted anti-town things, and I see that as a big problem in this game. If, through simple opening Q&A, scum finds a mason, I will be disappointed. I know you mean no harm, but I will not ask any RQS questions on of my own, and I responded to yours to keep you happy.
I would have participated in RVS, but it looks like I missed my chance. Game got started w/o me. I'll read through it again, this time for actual comprehension, and place a vote in my next post.
Post by: Nerjin on January 21, 2013, 11:04:09 pm
Nerjin:Really? Wouldn't the masons be outing themselves if they went after you?Nerjin: Do you believe it is good to claim as a Mason if Town? What if Town as Mason - and how would you look at both if you're scum?
As town claiming mason would likely get you lynched via the masons. Claiming Town as Mason... Hm... I think that might work. Some more hot-headed scum may go after you but more likely they won't do a thing until they are forced to by bad odds.
If I were scum I wouldn't trust either claim. So to shorten all of this: Town to Mason: Bad. Mason to Town: Less Bad. Scum-thought: Don't trust.
Not if they were intelligent.
Unvote I just did a primary re-read and something has stuck out to me. I'll post later when I'm positive.
Post by: Edosurist on January 21, 2013, 11:47:37 pm
Nerjin^Nerjin missed this, but I’ll happily add my thoughts.NQT I have a question for you. Why so interested in scum advice?I'm interested in hunting scum, and asking how a player would play as scum seems like a pretty good line of enquiry. Do you disagree?
I disagree. Asking a question like that is completely pointless because it only leads to WIFOM, and it’s nullified anyways.
One of Imiknorris, Deathsword, and Nerjin is scum for the quick wagon on NQT. Of the three, Nerjin looks the most town so far, and Imiknorris the least. I seemed to have some of the same thoughts as DS earlier, but otherwise, he looks null, leans scum.
Norris, largely because of post [post]130[/post], for his treatment of the mason claim issues.
Also, all these pointless, garbage, WIFOM inducing, playstyle speculating questions are going to drive me insane. I read absolutely nothing from them.
Other loose and brief reads I’m not going to focus on:
the Cap’n is scum, so is Phantom.
Toaster reads town.
NQT slight scum because I didn't like his answer to the question earlier in the post. Looks like he's trying to brush off a question with a BS response.
Post by: zombie urist on January 21, 2013, 11:57:21 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 22, 2013, 12:01:45 am
QuoteTaking my statement out of context ... really hurts. Damn it. I have an indescribable burning hatred for people that do that. It makes it very hard to have an intelligent conversation when everything you say is twisted. It makes one feel powerless, and I regard it as the most underhanded thing a person can do to someone else.
I still feel my argument is valid, and that your certainty is only justifiable if you're scum. If you think I'm wrong, explain why.
For example, this is an appeal to emotion. You're trying to guilt him away from voting you instead of convincing him you're a bad person to vote.
Is it because you're not a bad person to vote and don't have an argument otherwise? It just might be.
That's not the reason I brought it up. I realized that people were going to notice I was upset, and I wanted them to know why, because the reasons are immaterial to my alignment.
If you actually felt sorry for me, then I apologize. That was not my intention.Quotezombie urist: Let me put it another way. Unless my argument is flawed, the only way you could be certain I'm worth lynching is if you're scum.
Without an explanation from you, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. That makes you a better lead than Deathsword by a mile.
Also, this is a knee-jerky OMGUS. The double post makes you look just a bit panicky.
Yeah, it was. I was pissed.
And if you think I would panic because of a single vote, then you must have a very low opinion of me indeed.
Dariush:No. Both townies and mafia have an incentive to claim mason. Masons can't tell which they are, so they should regard it as a nulltell. Masons could also claim it as a double-bluff, so a mason claim should universally be treated as a nulltell. Everyone has an incentive to claim it, and so it doesn't give anyone any new information.Wrong answer. Anyone fakeclaiming mason will be suspected by a whole team of confirmed towns (masons, that is). Moreover, the sudden attention of those masons may incriminate them for scum. Finally, fakeclaiming while being town is just a bad idea in general.
On that note, I'm a mason. 8)
I'm not wrong. Your argument is flawed.
You said "the sudden attention of those masons may incriminate them for scum." But if everyone simply ignores it, then that doesn't happen. Since paying attention to it hurts town, and everyone is trying to appear town, then logically everyone should ignore it. Anyone who doesn't is just playing poorly.
Let me put it another way:
1. You would have to be stupid to fakeclaim mason.
2. Both scum and town are equally likely to be stupid.
Ergo: Both scum and town are equally likely to fakeclaim mason.
If anything, town is more likely to fakeclaim mason simply because there's more of them.
That said, you haven't actually accused me of fakeclaiming. Which is smart, because you'd either be lying or stupid if you said you knew for a fact what my alignment was. (If you want me to explain that one too, just ask. It's also not wrong)
There, I just gave you three good reasons for why mason claims are bullshit and should be ignored, and your argument only helped to prove my point.
Sidenote: And even if you don't agree with it, it's what I believed when I wrote it, which means that it can only mean exactly what I said it means. If you think otherwise then you fail at thinking.zombie urist: Let me put it another way. Unless my argument is flawed, the only way you could be certain I'm worth lynching is if you're scum.And now you're engaging in the worst flavor of hipocrisy. You say ZU can't be certain that you are scum, but you are certain that his vote is a lynch vote and not a pressure one. Why did you disregard the latter possibility out of hand?
Without an explanation from you, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. That makes you a better lead than Deathsword by a mile.
First off, do you scumhunt by adding, "but there might be another explanation" to the end of everything you say?
ZU didn't ask me anything, and he didn't investigate any other suspects. How the hell was I supposed to take it?
It sure looked an awful lot like he was trying to convince others to lynch me based on a misquoting of something I said.
Tolyk: I saw your question, but my brain is hurting. I'll answer it when I'm feeling better.
Deathsword: I'll get back to you too.
Now let me be clear about this:
- The mason claim was facetious. It was not made in full seriousness. You should consider my alignment unclaimed.
Post by: Edosurist on January 22, 2013, 12:04:39 am
Post by: Toaster on January 22, 2013, 12:07:07 am
Post by: Toaster on January 22, 2013, 12:19:35 am
QuoteTaking my statement out of context ... really hurts. Damn it. I have an indescribable burning hatred for people that do that. It makes it very hard to have an intelligent conversation when everything you say is twisted. It makes one feel powerless, and I regard it as the most underhanded thing a person can do to someone else.
I still feel my argument is valid, and that your certainty is only justifiable if you're scum. If you think I'm wrong, explain why.
For example, this is an appeal to emotion. You're trying to guilt him away from voting you instead of convincing him you're a bad person to vote.
Is it because you're not a bad person to vote and don't have an argument otherwise? It just might be.
That's not the reason I brought it up. I realized that people were going to notice I was upset, and I wanted them to know why, because the reasons are immaterial to my alignment.
If you actually felt sorry for me, then I apologize. That was not my intention.
So you say, at least. I'm not totally sold on that.
Quotezombie urist: Let me put it another way. Unless my argument is flawed, the only way you could be certain I'm worth lynching is if you're scum.
Without an explanation from you, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to. That makes you a better lead than Deathsword by a mile.
Also, this is a knee-jerky OMGUS. The double post makes you look just a bit panicky.
Yeah, it was. I was pissed.
And if you think I would panic because of a single vote, then you must have a very low opinion of me indeed.
I haven't played with you enough to form that kind of opinion. I certainly have seen people completely melt down over a single vote before, though.
Noteworthy, though, is that you admit it was a knee-jerk OMGUS and yet don't do anything to change it.
Now let me be clear about this:
- The mason claim was facetious. It was not made in full seriousness. You should consider my alignment unclaimed.
Actually, I'm willing to bet you're not a mason. Town versus scum... not decided yet. Why not mason? I bet you wouldn't claim mason as mason.
I'm interested to see your two "get back to you" results.
Phantom: (I almost spelled it Phanton again)
Probably about the same as everybody else that I don't see as scum, too much grilling and I risk getting them lynched by accident, too little and it looks suspicious.
Fair enough. Unvote Phantom.
Edos: I noticed you mentioned RVS and RQS separately, using both terms. Do you see them as two different things or was that just variance in what you called it? If they are different to you, how do your views of the two differ?
Post by: Phantom of The Library on January 22, 2013, 12:21:52 am
Other loose and brief reads I’m not going to focus on:
the Cap’n is scum, so is Phantom.
Why?
Post by: zombie urist on January 22, 2013, 12:37:09 am
UI: At that point, I only had a gut feeling. However I disagree with many of the points Ford makes about the claim.
Dariush: Busy with school.
Phantom: Please stop using so many line breaks.
Captain Ford:
You said "the sudden attention of those masons may incriminate them for scum." But if everyone simply ignores it, then that doesn't happen. Since paying attention to it hurts town, and everyone is trying to appear town, then logically everyone should ignore it. Anyone who doesn't is just playing poorly.1. First part makes no sense. People rarely act perfectly logically. Also, if everyone ignored every claim because it could be a town fakeclaiming, well... it wouldn't end up very well.
Let me put it another way.
1. You would have to be stupid to fakeclaim mason.
2. Both scum and town are equally likely to be stupid.
Ergo: Both scum and town are equally likely to fakeclaim mason.
If anything, town is more likely to fakeclaim mason simply because there's more of them.
That said, you haven't actually accused me of fakeclaiming. Which is smart, because you'd either be lying or stupid if you said you knew for a fact what my alignment was. (If you want me to explain that one too, just ask. It's also not wrong)
There, I just gave you three good reasons for why mason claims are bullshit and should be ignored, and your argument only helped to prove my point.
Sidenote: And even if you don't agree with it, it's what I believed when I wrote it, which means that it can only mean exactly what I said it means. If you think otherwise then you fail at thinking.
Now let me be clear about this:
- The mason claim was facetious. It was not made in full seriousness. You should consider my alignment unclaimed.
2. Scum might fake claim mason. I can't see a good reason for town to claim so. Stupidity has very little to do with it. I also think mason would be least likely to claim mason.
3. I can believe your claim was made in jest, but I will still consider it when scumhunting.
Tiruin: Explain your vote plz.
Post by: Tiruin on January 22, 2013, 01:09:13 am
Tiruin:@ Second: Because I don't least prefer anyone. Everyone either lies at neutral OR favorable. But if you'd want names then I'd name the newbies - I have no knowledge of teamplay with them nor do I have any sense of what they'd be doing, especially where we can't chat secretly with each other.What the hell are you even doing.On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?It helps me in the same way the knowledge gained from my question to Phantom helps me. But why won't you name names?Tiruin: If you were mafia, who would you least prefer to have as your teammates?Hmm, I guess it would be those who don't favor teamplay that much. I don't carry any favor towards anyone though in the least preferable section. Err, neither would I name names. Everyone is either neutral or favorable to me. How would this knowledge help you?
@First: I'm asking him a hypothetical question.
Now, detecting anyone using a smiley with shades from Captain Ford from my experiences with him tell me he's either joking, or pulling something off [when using smileys at all]. Now, he has rescinded that claim.
What I thought then? Why would anyone claim Town - Mason? Why would a Townie claim Mason? Why would a Mason claim....you get what I'm getting at.
I mean by...what? He was serious, or either playing around with his vote when he addressed the one before me who voted him (without discernible reason)
zombie urist: Let me put it another way. Unless my argument is flawed, the only way you could be certain I'm worth lynching is if you're scum.
Though he did state something (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3967683#msg3967683) jokingly to forward his idea, then judging by that he's a townie. With that attitude, I'd be surprised if he ended up scum//mason.
Thing is, if he was a townie, then his claim could be used as tracking in the following days by scum on who not to target//avoid and in itself, be a liability to his own team. If scum, then he's as bold as can be.
What I'm safe with saying though, is that he is no mason just by his words there.
Though, I'd oblige in this test of reasoning. Its a combined effort, with scum losing by [4:5]:4
Still makes no sense why he'd joke around as a Townie.
PPE: ZU: See above. You seem to be switching votes very quick, with all the brevity they hold.
Also, busy atm. Will return in posting later.
Woo, someone prefers me! :D But no, I'm not scum here.PotL: If you were mafia, who would you most prefer to have as your teammates?
You, Tiruin, Book if he was still in the game, and Toaster since he isn't. I've seen you all play and I know I can get along with all of you well and you're all fun to talk to.
Not that I would have a choice about Tir, as we already know that he's scum. :P
@ZU//UI//PoTL: Can you give me your reads on what you got from that one-liner on me and Ford?
Post by: Leafsnail on January 22, 2013, 07:50:14 am
January 22nd, 2030
Another alleged member of hacking group Pseudonym has been arrested following his details being posted online, police have confirmed. These details were distributed using the popular social media site Blather. The post appears to have been made from the member's own computer, but the motive for doing so is unclear.
The accused, who used the name Nerjin when online, has claimed to police that he was trying to bring Pseudonym down from within as a "mafia goon". It remains to be seen whether that story is true, but he still likely faces a lengthy jail sentence for various cybercrimes.
Nerjin has been doxxed.
He was a mafia goon.
The votecount has now been reset, and the deadline is in a week's time.
Post by: TolyK on January 22, 2013, 02:01:41 pm
Well, although agreeing with me is nice, and the explanations seem good... well, I'll keep an eye on you.Going through stuff again:Yeah, sorry- got a bit side tracked. To clarify and reply:
Replying "not quite" to "notquitethere" is kinda funny, but I've noticed that he didn't reply or take notice of my reply to him.Not quite:NQT, do you agree that your logic is not quite sound, as explained above? Also, forgetting "class perks" (mixing up who has protection) typically happens more to people who don't have that alignment, don't you think
Option 1's logic assumes the lynchee is a certified mason. If not, you could be either scum (who wants to even the votes to cause confusion) or just some townie who thinks the other person is more scummy.
Option 3's "good" part also has a flipside - town move you closer to scum if you obviously bandwagon. Or, nothing can happen at all, which is basically the same as Option 2 except that you helped kill a fellow mason.
Hold on...
It's the townie who gets the passive protection, not the mason, so it wouldn't "potentially result(...) in a rebound-kill", rather "make you a higher-risk kill target, and make you a higher-payoff lynch target".
The scenario assumes that it's this game we're talking about and not vanilla mafia and it's near the end of the week and you are a mason and a fellow mason is about to be lynched and you can save him back voting for a second person, forcing a last-minute draw. In this game, an absolute draw is decided in secret by the mafia. You're right that if you were to even up the votes then it might make you look scummy (I think that was Ford's argument), or it might make you look like town eager to prevent someone who they don't think is scum being lynched. But I think that as masons are the only non-scum that know for sure who is a mason or not, to the scum you will look most like a mason if you try and even out the vote at the last minute. Either way, because the scum know who they are, they're most likely to choose the mason to lynch rather than the patsy you voted for.
You make a good point that option 3 is likely to make you look like a bandwagoning scum to the townies, so maybe option 2 is the best.
This is a pretty convoluted counterfactual, but hopefully I'm making myself clear enough. As for the perk mix-around, this is only the second forum-mafia game I've played, so some misunderstandings are probably to be expected. I feel a bit safer and clearer now than I did before, if that's any consolation. Thanks for setting me straight, Tolyk... :D
Uh, what.On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?
Oh, I get it. But probably it would be good to clarify why you're voting, that is, if you're not just bandwagoning scum :P
Tolyk, why do you think it's worthwhile to engage in RVS on 107th reply in the thread?It was my first post in the game, what do you want? I didn't get the reply to a question I wanted from one person, so I asked it to another person (later), partially because it interests me personally.
@TKAlright, it seems that you're more or less on. Fairly expected answer though.QuoteEdosurist, you haven't posted yet, and I haven't seen you before. What practice do you have before this game? And, more importantly, what do you think is harder to play as, town or mason?It’s clearly harder to play as mason. You have to look like a townie so you don’t get sniped by mafia during the day, possibly come to your partner’s aid (if you think it’s worth it), and you still have to scumhunt. That’s three duties as opposed to one. Yes, you can confirm 1/3 of the town, but you give off those relationship tells and chainsaw tells that are generally scummy, and the mafia can spot you for it.
Tolyk: I saw your question, but my brain is hurting. I'll answer it when I'm feeling better.Ok, I'll keep you under the crosshairs then. :P
More or less adequate answer, though I was hoping you would find something incorrect in the reasoning here.Phantom: What do you think about this statement: "People tend to give examples of what they'd do if they were of a different alignment than they really are (if they are asked), and tend to ask questions that put the addressed person into their alignment. The first part is to throw people off their scent, while the second part is to get suggestions on how others would play their alignment." What part is true (if any), and what part is logically incorrect (if any)?Depends on the person, some might do one; others might do something different. I've seen it go either way with about an even split. Although newbies do tend to try to get suggestions more often, even if it doesn't relate to their current alignment.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 22, 2013, 05:45:52 pm
Since Phantom seems to be MIA, and since Capain Ford seems to be rocking in logic (:P) I'll let him answer this question:Quote from: TolyKPhantom: What do you think about this statement: "People tend to give examples of what they'd do if they were of a different alignment than they really are (if they are asked), and tend to ask questions that put the addressed person into their alignment. The first part is to throw people off their scent, while the second part is to get suggestions on how others would play their alignment." What part is true (if any), and what part is logically incorrect (if any)?
People do both of those things, and they also do them for the reasons listed, but those are not necessarily the only reasons.
Tiruin:
On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?
Aren't we all?
Still makes no sense why he'd joke around as a Townie.
Yeah, I can see you still don't get it.
Quote from: Google
fa·ce·tious
Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.
I didn't choose that word arbitrarily to describe it. It was deliberately and blatantly inappropriate. But I was also making a point when I said.
It was not "just a joke". It was not a serious claim, but I was making a serious point.
Now, I could be wrong, but neither you nor ZU even tried to fault my argument. You both just took the claim at face value, which I found to be really personally insulting. Dariush actually did give me a counter-argument, but I think he's wrong, for the reasons I stated.
I've done a lot of thinking about this and ... you know what, I'll just post part of it.
Spoiler: Ford's Theorycraft (click to show/hide)
Oh, also, one of the great things about this setup is that when a mafia performs a daykill against a townie (like Nerjin just did), nobody knows who his target was, not even his allies. They're forced to guess who he targeted. So it's entirely possible for the entire scum team to wipe themselves out on the same townie.
So logically, if the townie gets any sort of PM about it, they really shouldn't disclose it.
Ford:QuoteTaking my statement out of context ... really hurts. Damn it. I have an indescribable burning hatred for people that do that. It makes it very hard to have an intelligent conversation when everything you say is twisted. It makes one feel powerless, and I regard it as the most underhanded thing a person can do to someone else.
I still feel my argument is valid, and that your certainty is only justifiable if you're scum. If you think I'm wrong, explain why.
For example, this is an appeal to emotion. You're trying to guilt him away from voting you instead of convincing him you're a bad person to vote.
Is it because you're not a bad person to vote and don't have an argument otherwise? It just might be.
That's not the reason I brought it up. I realized that people were going to notice I was upset, and I wanted them to know why, because the reasons are immaterial to my alignment.
If you actually felt sorry for me, then I apologize. That was not my intention.
So you say, at least. I'm not totally sold on that.
I'd like to add that it was a bad decision on my part to include that.
Quote
Noteworthy, though, is that you admit it was a knee-jerk OMGUS and yet don't do anything to change it.
I don't think I did. I overreacted. But I don't think it was an OMGUS. I think I had a valid reason for suspecting him.
Obviously, it's a matter of opinion. But twisting what someone else said is a classic way of discrediting someone when they really haven't done anything wrong. It's just scummy.
In the light of day, I can clearly see he was doing it just to see what kind of reaction it would provoke.
I didn't change my vote because I had a terrible headache and couldn't finish my post. I hadn't yet decided how I was going to handle my vote, so it didn't get handled in that post.
Quote
Actually, I'm willing to bet you're not a mason. Town versus scum... not decided yet. Why not mason? I bet you wouldn't claim mason as mason.
Sure I wouldn't. Because it certainly doesn't make me look like I'm not a mason. Oh wait...
Deathsword:
He copped up to making a mistake. In case you missed it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3965152#msg3965152). We're both players in BM 38 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120310.0), which is still ongoing and I'm sure he's paying close attention to.Deathsword: You were awfully quick to jump on the bandwagon, weren't you?
You also jumped pretty hard when notquitethere named you in one of his posts. Seems like you don't want anyone thinking you're on a team.
And you were quite quick to jump on me for attacking NQT, weren't you? And just as quick to shift your vote to do an OMGUS.
NQT made a slip. When Tiruin accused him of buddying up to me, he immediately tried to diver attention by asking you a question, and then quickly shifting that question to Tiruin. He was quick to OMGUS me for a pressure vote and a mild attack, and now he is jumpier than ever. He is scum, and you, Ford, might be too.
Also ... now that I look at the definition, my vote wasn't an OMGUS (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Omgus). I voted him primarily for twisting my words. His voting me was incidental. I think the phrase OMGUS is overused in a lot of situations where it really doesn't apply. Also, I've never seen any reasoning for why an OMGUS is an indicator of anything.
And, um. Tiruin didn't accuse NQT of buddying. He accused him of being your buddy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3964841#msg3964841). Buddying (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Buddying) is something done between people on different teams. Tiruin accused you of being on the same team.
You were the first person to accuse NQT of buddying, Deathsword. And it seemed apparent to me that NQT just picked a random name off the list. Thus his facetious reply to Tiruin's question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3964907#msg3964907).
So to me, accusing him of buddying is ludicrous. It's obvious your name was picked out of a hat. You'd probably only think it was buddying if you were overly sensitive to it. Which can only mean you don't want it look like you're his teammate.
I wasn't inclined to think you were on the same team, or that you were on a team at all until you reacted to it. So I'm not sure why you did.
I will admit to jumping in to protect NQT. Because that's what I did. I did it because I thought your reasons for voting him were bullshit. I still do.
Addressing this specifically:
Quote
He was quick to OMGUS me for a pressure vote and a mild attack, and now he is jumpier than ever.
I don't think it was an OMGUS. I think you looked like you were overreacting and that was a perfectly valid reason for him to investigate you. I do think that you are trying very hard to incriminate both of us with very little cause.
You seem to think he's being jumpy for ... putting your name in red twice in the same post? Are you serious? It looks completely natural to me. And I happen to think it's an effective means of applying pressure, Deathsword.
From what I can see, he's calm and collected in the way he's responding to your posts. You're the one who's jumpy and pulling crap out of nowhere.
To sum up, Deathsword:
- Do you still think NQT was buddying you?
Wow. I didn't really expect to see a [acryonym=I like this word. I'm keeping it.]dox[/acronym] this early. Let alone one that ended in dead scum.
...I want to review Nerjin's activity for leads, but I'm going to have to leave that for another post. This WoT is big enough already.
...and for good measure, Deathsword. (I hope you can see the humor in this)
Post by: zombie urist on January 22, 2013, 05:56:33 pm
claiming mason makes you look not-like a mason. Even if you meant it facetiously.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 22, 2013, 06:00:19 pm
Post by: Teneb on January 22, 2013, 06:21:46 pm
(Hint: I do not)
Deathsword:And I stated before that I do not believe it was a mistake, I believe he is trying to cover up a slip.He copped up to making a mistake. In case you missed it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3965152#msg3965152). We're both players in BM 38 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120310.0), which is still ongoing and I'm sure he's paying close attention to.Deathsword: You were awfully quick to jump on the bandwagon, weren't you?
You also jumped pretty hard when notquitethere named you in one of his posts. Seems like you don't want anyone thinking you're on a team.
And you were quite quick to jump on me for attacking NQT, weren't you? And just as quick to shift your vote to do an OMGUS.
NQT made a slip. When Tiruin accused him of buddying up to me, he immediately tried to diver attention by asking you a question, and then quickly shifting that question to Tiruin. He was quick to OMGUS me for a pressure vote and a mild attack, and now he is jumpier than ever. He is scum, and you, Ford, might be too.
Quote
Also ... now that I look at the definition, my vote wasn't an OMGUS (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Omgus). I voted him primarily for twisting my words. His voting me was incidental. I think the phrase OMGUS is overused in a lot of situations where it really doesn't apply. Also, I've never seen any reasoning for why an OMGUS is an indicator of anything.An OMGUS indicates a person is nervous, afraid of being found out. It's an indicator alright.
Quote
And, um. Tiruin didn't accuse NQT of buddying. He accused him of being your buddy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3964841#msg3964841). Buddying (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Buddying) is something done between people on different teams. Tiruin accused you of being on the same team.Tiruin accused him of buddying. The link to it is in your own text. And even if he didn't accuse NQT of buddying, as you claim, I still did. Why? Because he was trying to buddy up to me. Why is it scummy? Because if you, as scum, can get a player to trust you, they are less likely to vote you and more likely to go after someone else. Sure, my name may have been picked out randomly, but it changes little when it comes to his intentions.
You were the first person to accuse NQT of buddying, Deathsword. And it seemed apparent to me that NQT just picked a random name off the list. Thus his facetious reply to Tiruin's question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3964907#msg3964907).
So to me, accusing him of buddying is ludicrous. It's obvious your name was picked out of a hat. You'd probably only think it was buddying if you were overly sensitive to it. Which can only mean you don't want it look like you're his teammate.
I wasn't inclined to think you were on the same team, or that you were on a team at all until you reacted to it. So I'm not sure why you did.
Quote
I will admit to jumping in to protect NQT. Because that's what I did. I did it because I thought your reasons for voting him were bullshit. I still do.Calm? He tried to divert attention from Tiruin's accusations by throwing a question. He jumped at me the moment I voted him. That is hardly calm. Newbies often panick when under attack, and NQT barely has any experience. Sure, he could be just a flaling newbie, but I'm not one for betting, much less in such things. He smells scum to me, and there is evidence to back it.
Addressing this specifically:QuoteHe was quick to OMGUS me for a pressure vote and a mild attack, and now he is jumpier than ever.
I don't think it was an OMGUS. I think you looked like you were overreacting and that was a perfectly valid reason for him to investigate you. I do think that you are trying very hard to incriminate both of us with very little cause.
You seem to think he's being jumpy for ... putting your name in red twice in the same post? Are you serious? It looks completely natural to me. And I happen to think it's an effective means of applying pressure, Deathsword.
From what I can see, he's calm and collected in the way he's responding to your posts. You're the one who's jumpy and pulling crap out of nowhere.
Quote
To sum up, Deathsword:Yes. Read above.
- Do you still think NQT was buddying you?
Quote
...and for good measure, Deathsword. (I hope you can see the humor in this)Thou art truly a master of humour. I salute thee.
Sarcasm aside, NQT must be proud to have you as a teammate, as you are risking yourself to defend him.
Which leads me to the question, why are you going to such an effort to protect him?
Post by: Phantom of The Library on January 22, 2013, 06:27:08 pm
Phantom: Please stop using so many line breaks.Sorry, I was trying to make it look neater, guess it went the way around :P
@ZU//UI//PoTL: Can you give me your reads on what you got from that one-liner on me and Ford?
You appear to be attempting some sort of WIFOMy gambit, which raises my suspicions of you just a little bit.
Post by: Edosurist on January 22, 2013, 09:03:12 pm
Quote
I noticed you mentioned RVS and RQS separately, using both terms. Do you see them as two different things or was that just variance in what you called it? If they are different to you, how do your views of the two differ?Random Voting stage: Random votes placed on a person to spark reactions. These reactions actually get you somewhere.
Random Questioning Stage: Random questions used in tandem with RVS, often asking about game theory or other pointless questions. These generally result in discussions on playstyle as opposed to a scummy thing that a person does.
A prime example of this would be this question itself. How does my view on RVS vs. RQS have any relevance to the game?
@Phantom
Don't worry, I saw your post. I need to go now, so I had to cut the post short. I'll get back to you.
Imiknorris
Post by: Captain Ford on January 22, 2013, 09:09:38 pm
I'm going to call out this in particular:
Tiruin accused him of buddying.
You are objectively wrong. The original statement by NQT, NQT's reply to that post, and Tiruin's reply to it make it absolutely clear what they were talking about.
You are being obstinate about this for no good reason.
Quote
And even if he didn't accuse NQT of buddying, as you claim, I still did. Why? Because he was trying to buddy up to me. Why is it scummy? Because if you, as scum, can get a player to trust you, they are less likely to vote you and more likely to go after someone else.
I just don't see it. It was blatant. It was clearly a box of WIFOM. Without a better knowledge of NQT, there's no way to know how or why he chose your name. Speculating is completely pointless. It's a complete waste of time.
And he called you his scumbuddy. That is the strangest way to buddy someone that I've ever seen. In fact, that's probably the reason why you're reacting to it so badly.
Quote
Which leads me to the question, why are you going to such an effort to protect him?Shouldn't I try to protect any townie from scum?
But in all seriousness, NQT's writing style is very similar to mine. I can clearly tell that he's not panicked in the least. That's also why I know your argument is bullshit, even if you don't.
Protecting NQT is only a side-effect of going after you. I'm not sorry about it, because you weren't getting anywhere. That you think you were with a claim like that is kind of bizarre.
The question is whether or not you're actually this paranoid, or if you're just out to get him because you smell an easy kill.
...but there's something else, too...
After you made your case, Nerjin popped in to support you with this gem:
NQT I have a question for you. Why so interested in scum advice?
So NQT's been voted by scum, and you've been linked to scum by a common target. Sure, it's possible Nerjin was buddying you and voting for an ally. But those things just aren't that common.
That link alone might be a good enough reason for you to hang. But I want to hear what others think about it, first.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 22, 2013, 09:21:53 pm
Post by: notquitethere on January 22, 2013, 10:37:29 pm
Just my quick two pennies on the mason claim thing earlier: Ford was completely logical in that a mason claim is a null tell, and people jumping on him when he made a tongue-in-cheek mason claim was utterly bizarre/paranoid.
I really want to talk about what Nerjin's death might mean, but first I must sleep!
Post by: Toaster on January 22, 2013, 11:33:33 pm
Edos:
Random Voting stage: Random votes placed on a person to spark reactions. These reactions actually get you somewhere.
Random Questioning Stage: Random questions used in tandem with RVS, often asking about game theory or other pointless questions. These generally result in discussions on playstyle as opposed to a scummy thing that a person does.
A prime example of this would be this question itself. How does my view on RVS vs. RQS have any relevance to the game?
Here on B12, those terms are almost interchangeable. I wanted to see if you said the same because you appeared to treat them differently in the post. I wanted to be sure you were being consistent. Also, it gives me an idea of how you think.
Actual relevance to the game? Pretty low.
Post by: Dariush on January 23, 2013, 11:48:09 am
Signavatar exploded, so I had to go back to a single avatar. I chose Trickster Mode Lord English for the sheer absurdity.Weakling. Refresh the page to understand.
Dariush: You missed my question:Yes, of course I do. Everyone will be lynched, though the order may vary. Also, some may be killed instead. Also, some deaths will happen after the game. Mhaha.Dariush: Do you still stand by your notion that the BM-less newbies will be lynched first? (fake-edit: Also, how does it feel to be so popular?)
Also, what are your reads on notquitethere and obolisk?Too early in the game to state reads on people, especially considering obolisk had a whopping one post so far.
Ford:
You said "the sudden attention of those masons may incriminate them for scum." But if everyone simply ignores it, then that doesn't happen. Since paying attention to it hurts town, and everyone is trying to appear town, then logically everyone should ignore it. Anyone who doesn't is just playing poorly.Sure. You miss just one crucial thing: there's no benefit to anyone by claiming mason, truthfully or otherwise. You haven't explained why you've done it, only why paying attention to it hurts town. Except that if you didn't claim it, there would be nothing to pay attention to. Therefore, you knowingly did something that has the possibility to hurt town without any benefit to it whatsoever. Die, scum.
First off, do you scumhunt by adding, "but there might be another explanation" to the end of everything you say?Oh really? Never heard about pressure votes?
ZU didn't ask me anything, and he didn't investigate any other suspects. How the hell was I supposed to take it?
It sure looked an awful lot like he was trying to convince others to lynch me based on a misquoting of something I said.It sure looks an awful lot like you're trying to cover up your panicking.
And, as an afterword, your quadruple vote of DS is ridiculous, your chainsawing of NQT is shameless, and just because you admit to doing so doesn't make it stop being scummy.
ZU, explain why your pressure vote targets awfully conveniently coincide with whoever has the majority at the time of voting and why you jumped off the Ford wagon without the slightest explanation, just as you jumped on it with a similar lack of any.
Post by: zombie urist on January 23, 2013, 12:06:29 pm
Post by: Tiruin on January 23, 2013, 12:59:49 pm
zombie urist
@ZU//UI//So what's up about it being Odd? And because of my odd-vote, you shifted, I see?PoTL: Can you give me your reads on what you got from that one-liner on me and Ford?
Ford
Tell me, what was your goal in 'claiming' mason. Tell me, Is there any other reason for that claim other than to emphasize a 'joke'?
Also, your point on Deathsword? I can see its because he made an observational-post mistake, but I don't get much in terms of the relation of Nerjin being scum, and his link with DS. Could you clarify that point?
Quote
But in all seriousness, NQT's writing style is very similar to mine. I can clearly tell that he's not panicked in the least.So, how? I seem to detect subtle defending of NQT there.
Post by: notquitethere on January 23, 2013, 01:13:25 pm
NQT, why did you vote DS twice in the space of two lines?Just emphasis, I guess. If that's bad practice, I won't do it again.
Deathsword
I am sorry, but didn't you throw a softball question at me asking for advice on how to play as scum?You yourself said that I'd asked the same question to other people: where are there accusations of buddying up? Your theory about me asking for scum advice because I was town in my last game is a nice one and I'd be tempted to believe it myself were it not for the fact that I asked that very question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120310.30) when I was last playing as town.
Those questions are done with the intent of making the player trust you, to make them your buddies. And you took the opportunity to get some advice on how to play your role, since, looking at the BM, you didn't play as scum and thus never had advice from a scum IC.
It has been pointed out by another, but you really wanted to vote me, didn't you? What could make you so nervous as to keep voting me over and over in a single post? Being scum, of course.
As Ford pointed out, voting the same person twice or more doesn't really convey anything untoward, it's just emphasis. Also, let us suppose that I was buddying up with you, me old scumbuddy Deathsword, (this is great distancing you've been doing! Keep up the good work!), what would that actually convey? Here's a hint:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That Phantom What Hangs Out In The Library
Or, it's a good way to try and get in a free lynch as scum. Most people already policy-lynch lurkers, so this has no point. Besides killing a someone for no reason other than living in a different timezone.And you would have good reasons for suspicion if I'd have made any later attempt to enforce the lynch, but I didn't and won't as I wasn't really being serious as the time.
Quote
Why the OMGUS?I realise, looking back that it might have seemed omgussy (omgustatious? omgustastic? omugusilicious?) but there are legitimate reasons for suspecting Deathsword. I'll enumerate:
- At the time he hadn't done much scum hunting and had latched on to one person (me)
- I'd been voted already this might come across as bandwagoning
- Most of all, his insistence that I was buddying up to him was bizarre and unfounded
Edos
You seem to be against playstyle related questions. This is interesting because these seem to be the norm here. What kind of questions would you ask to get the ball rolling? I like in-character questions relating to the 'flavour' myself, but in my previous game here it was suggested that they're not effective either.Quote from: moiI'm interested in hunting scum, and asking how a player would play as scum seems like a pretty good line of enquiry. Do you disagree?I disagree. Asking a question like that is completely pointless because it only leads to WIFOM, and it’s nullified anyways.
Everyone
What does Nerjin's death convey?
They either doxxed a townie or they doxxed themself to be out of the game. Either way they didn't leave a 'bah' message. As Nerjin's an active player and they run the BM let's assume the former.
Well who could Nerjin have targeted being so sure that the target was a mason? My guess: Captain Ford. Nerjin know's Ford's playstyle from the insider position of running a BM with Ford as a prominent player. Maybe Nerjin's read on Ford is that Ford likes to doublebluff, and when they saw Ford claim to be Mason, Nerjin took that to be a doublebluff and sent in the kill request. What do we all think?
Post by: Dariush on January 23, 2013, 01:20:36 pm
What does Nerjin's death convey?This is mind-numbingly stupid. When people don't want to play anymore, they ask for a replacement, not kill themselves.
They either doxxed a townie or they doxxed themself to be out of the game. Either way they didn't leave a 'bah' message. As Nerjin's an active player and they run the BM let's assume the former.
Post by: zombie urist on January 23, 2013, 01:51:49 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 23, 2013, 02:41:37 pm
Let me put it this way: What now makes Deathsword a better vote candidate than ZU?
NQT:
Everyone
What does Nerjin's death convey?
I get a couple things out of it. First thought was LOLOLOL.
... or they doxxed themself to be out of the game.
While it's possible he thought his situation (in game or out of game) was getting bad and he just wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, the chances are low enough (and any implication useless) that this possibility can be safely ignored. Also, this:
I'm a gambler and I like taking risks. What can I say...
Unvote I just did a primary re-read and something has stuck out to me. I'll post later when I'm positive.
Guess we know what stuck out to him! However, other than this, there was nothing to be gained from his posts/interactions, mainly because there were so few of them. Only one useful thing came out of it, really:
Well who could Nerjin have targeted being so sure that the target was a mason? My guess: Captain Ford. Nerjin know's Ford's playstyle from the insider position of running a BM with Ford as a prominent player. Maybe Nerjin's read on Ford is that Ford likes to doublebluff, and when they saw Ford claim to be Mason, Nerjin took that to be a doublebluff and sent in the kill request. What do we all think?
I think you're trying to get everyone to speculate publicly on who is town versus who is mason. You know who is interested in that information?
Scum.
Notquitethere.
Zombie U:
pfp I think you (nqt) and ford are scembuddys.
So why aren't you voting for them?
Post by: zombie urist on January 23, 2013, 02:42:48 pm
What does Nerjin's death convey?There's no way Nerjin would dox himself. Even if he did I doubt LS would let him. Anyways, the second part is all WIFOM. And buddying.
They either doxxed a townie or they doxxed themself to be out of the game. Either way they didn't leave a 'bah' message. As Nerjin's an active player and they run the BM let's assume the former.
Well who could Nerjin have targeted being so sure that the target was a mason? My guess: Captain Ford. Nerjin know's Ford's playstyle from the insider position of running a BM with Ford as a prominent player. Maybe Nerjin's read on Ford is that Ford likes to doublebluff, and when they saw Ford claim to be Mason, Nerjin took that to be a doublebluff and sent in the kill request. What do we all think?
You and Ford have been defending each other quite a bit.
PPE'd Toaster. I was on the phone and it was hard.
Post by: Teneb on January 23, 2013, 02:59:15 pm
Post by: TolyK on January 23, 2013, 03:13:23 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 23, 2013, 04:02:37 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on January 23, 2013, 04:56:43 pm
January 23rd, 2030
Another man has been arrested for hacking offences after his details were posted online. His details were posted to the politics section of Sawit, a major news aggregator site. The events were similar to yesterday's in that it seemed to be his own computer performing the upload.
The man, known online as Urist Imiknorris, claimed that he was also a "mafia goon" and that the real bad guys were "still out there".
This follows news that prosecutor's have assembled what they believe to be a "completely airtight" case against the alleged criminal mastermind known as Leafsnail.
Urist Imiknorris has been doxxed.
He was a mafia goon.
The votecount has now been reset, and the deadline is in a week's time.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 23, 2013, 05:01:13 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on January 23, 2013, 05:01:46 pm
You haven't explained why you've done it.
I have explained quite thoroughly WHY I did it. You clearly don't understand my explanation and don't want to. There is really nothing I can do about that.
Quote
Therefore, you knowingly did something that has the possibility to hurt town without any benefit to it whatsoever.
Not true. Explaining my position and outlook helps town to make a better judgment about me. Also, the argument about avoiding paying attention to claims is worthwhile information that could benefit the town, since it isn't necessarily obvious.
And, on the other hand, you accept the idea, and yet continue to pay attention to the claim, willfully violating it.
My argument said that making the claim doesn't hurt anyone. Paying attention to it is what causes harm.
I'm not the one causing harm. By your own admission, you are.
Tiruin:
Ford
Tell me, what was your goal in 'claiming' mason. Tell me, Is there any other reason for that claim other than to emphasize a 'joke'?
Dude. I'm not going to explain it again. It was not a joke. It was made in a joking manner, but I was dead-serious about the point I was making.
Quote
Also, your point on Deathsword? I can see its because he made an observational-post mistake, but I don't get much in terms of the relation of Nerjin being scum, and his link with DS. Could you clarify that point?
It looks like teamwork.
Quote
QuoteBut in all seriousness, NQT's writing style is very similar to mine. I can clearly tell that he's not panicked in the least.So, how? I seem to detect subtle defending of NQT there.
He's also doing many of the same things I am. Newbie things, like getting hung up thinking about the setup and the possibilities. He's also making similar sarcastic and facetious remarks (surely I'm not the only one who noticed that?), and it's getting him in an equal amount of trouble.
I'm defending myself as much as NQT. We're getting attacked for the same bullshit reasons. People are making mincemeat of our posts and talking about things that aren't there. That's bullshit, and it's lazy. If you don't understand somebody, then any argument you make is worthless.
I'm tearing apart Deathsword's argument because I think it's terrible. Deathsword actually raised some good points about NQT, but not the ones he was making.
NQT has been overtly friendly. Just in general. Not to anyone in particular. He's effectively trying to buddy everyone by just acting good-natured. I think that's just the way he is, because he acted the same way in BM 38 as the sheriff.
I think Deathsword's argument is bunk. But after listening to him, I'm starting to see his point of view.
Deathsword: I still want to see your responses to my last post.
Unvote.
Zombie Urist:
There's no way Nerjin would dox himself....WHAT?
The miscommunication on this forum is out of control. NQT didn't say anything even remotely close to that.
Toaster:
Ford: I get this feeling in my gut that you used the vote reset to hop back over to Deathsword and away from ZU, but I don't have anything substantive, sadly.
Let me put it this way: What now makes Deathsword a better vote candidate than ZU?
I think I said something about this somewhere, but I'm pretty certain now that ZU was just probing me to see how I would react.
I think that at the time, based on what I thought at the time, that my reaction was justified, if a bit extreme. My perception of his actions has changed since then.
I will admit that the vote reset made moving to Deathsword easier. But there's more to consider now, too. Nerjin didn't interact with many people, but his piling onto notquitethere is telling.
PPE: Leafsnail.
...I'm going to post this now, before it ages too much.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 23, 2013, 05:20:17 pm
Quote from: notquitethere
they doxxed themself to be out of the game
Oh god, I didn't see that part. Sorry ZU, consider that part struck from my post.
Shame on you, NQT, for saying things that don't make any sense.
Post by: zombie urist on January 23, 2013, 06:02:29 pm
Captain Ford: What is your read on NQT?
zombie uristI found it suspicious and thus voted accordingly.@ZU//UI//So what's up about it being Odd? And because of my odd-vote, you shifted, I see?PoTL: Can you give me your reads on what you got from that one-liner on me and Ford?
I'm defending myself as much as NQT. We're getting attacked for the same bullshit reasons. People are making mincemeat of our posts and talking about things that aren't there. That's bullshit, and it's lazy. If you don't understand somebody, then any argument you make is worthless.Buddying.
I'm tearing apart Deathsword's argument because I think it's terrible. Deathsword actually raised some good points about NQT, but not the ones he was making.Huuuh? You think DS's argument is bad but you see his point of view? This section is filled with contradictions.
NQT has been overtly friendly. Just in general. Not to anyone in particular. He's effectively trying to buddy everyone by just acting good-natured. I think that's just the way he is, because he acted the same way in BM 38 as the sheriff.
I think Deathsword's argument is bunk. But after listening to him, I'm starting to see his point of view.
I will admit that the vote reset made moving to Deathsword easier. But there's more to consider now, too. Nerjin didn't interact with many people, but his piling onto notquitethere is telling.What does it tell?
Post by: notquitethere on January 23, 2013, 06:05:29 pm
EBWOP:Apologies, I'm a logician by trade so my instinct is to consider all options that are logically possible, whether or not they're likely: I don't think for a minute Nerjin, or for that matter Urist, doxxed themselves. As you'll see from my post, I quickly dismissed that possibility.Quote from: notquitetherethey doxxed themself to be out of the game
Oh god, I didn't see that part. Sorry ZU, consider that part struck from my post.
Shame on NQT, for saying things that don't make any sense.
--
Turning to the point that garnered me the votes before Urist's demise: I wanted to discuss a game relevant topic- how is talking about a confirmed scum and their target's a scumtell? Many of you were quite quick to bandwagon. I say, let's rationally examine Nerjin and Imiknorris' posts and see what knowledge we can get from them.
ZU
My read is informed by Nerjin's demise: who is the person he would have tried to kill? Captain Ford is the most likely answer, as I explained in my post above. This isn't buddying, this is logic. If someone can give me a convincing counterfactual to my earlier argument then I'll revise my opinion.
Post by: zombie urist on January 23, 2013, 06:10:08 pm
Either way, I don't really see why anyone would try to kill Captain Ford, as he is super scummy.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 23, 2013, 07:00:54 pm
Everyone
What does Nerjin's death convey?
They either doxxed a townie or they doxxed themself to be out of the game. Either way they didn't leave a 'bah' message. As Nerjin's an active player and they run the BM let's assume the former.
Well who could Nerjin have targeted being so sure that the target was a mason? My guess: Captain Ford. Nerjin know's Ford's playstyle from the insider position of running a BM with Ford as a prominent player. Maybe Nerjin's read on Ford is that Ford likes to doublebluff, and when they saw Ford claim to be Mason, Nerjin took that to be a doublebluff and sent in the kill request. What do we all think?
I'd like to think I had something to do with it, but until the game's over, I won't know for sure. I really don't think it was me. But that's my opinion.
I was pretty sure you're town, but you sure are stirring up a hornet's nest. This was a really dumb thing to post, and Toaster nailed the reason why. I know you were trying to get all the information you could off of Nerjin, but this isn't information that should be discussed publicly. Figuring out publicly who Nerjin targeted is actually bad for the town. Better to keep the scum guessing.
So knock it off. :)
To no-one in particular:
Now we've seen two scumbags flip, and they both put their votes on NQT at the same time. To me, it looks like they were going for the easy lynch.
I don't know NQT's alignment for sure, he's not on my team. I'm reading him as a townie, but that last thing he did, speculating about Nerjin's target was a very poor move. I think he had good intentions, I just don't think he thought it through. I've thought about trying to figure out who Nerjin's target was myself, so I'm not surprised he did. The only difference is that I knew it was better to keep that information a secret.
I'm going to trust my instincts, and I won't participate in his lynch. I really hope I'm right about him.
Zombie Urist:
Captain Ford: What is your read on NQT?I think I handled that.
Quote
Huuuh? You think DS's argument is bad but you see his point of view? This section is filled with contradictions.It is not a contradiction in the least. Seeing someone's point of view doesn't mean I agree with it.
I think his argument is bad, but I don't think he thinks it's bad. I think he honestly believes he has something, and while I think he's wrong, I don't think he's malicious.
Quote
Well, in conjunction with Imiknorris's vote, either they were doing some serious distancing, or looking for an easy lynch. Neither of them expected to die, so it might be that they expected notquitethere to be lynched, and decided to get in some distancing early on. If true, it would be ironic that it went the other way instead.I will admit that the vote reset made moving to Deathsword easier. But there's more to consider now, too. Nerjin didn't interact with many people, but his piling onto notquitethere is telling.What does it tell?
I don't really think he's scum. But I can't vouch for him. I always think it's sad to be lynching one of the game's most active players, especially when both of the scum that have died so far have been lurkers who have gotten practically zero attention.
...I'd feel like a complete tool if NQT turned out to be scum. But I really don't think he is. I think the real scum are hiding in obscurity, not audacity.
Post by: Teneb on January 23, 2013, 08:16:25 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 23, 2013, 09:58:14 pm
LOLOLOL
notquitethere is still doing it and is still scum:
ZU
My read is informed by Nerjin's demise: who is the person he would have tried to kill? Captain Ford is the most likely answer, as I explained in my post above. This isn't buddying, this is logic. If someone can give me a convincing counterfactual to my earlier argument then I'll revise my opinion.
Didn't get anything out of UI's interactions either.
Leafsnail: Please prod obolisk0430.
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 24, 2013, 12:03:27 am
Post by: Edosurist on January 24, 2013, 12:30:14 am
Reasons:
Why the OMGUS?From my experience, scum never OMGUS if they can help it. They've been taught not to do that, so I usually see it as a reckless-town tell.
This is also, from my experience, a tell scum try to push because it's a widely known tell, and it's easy to catch someone doing. Scum have a hard time making legit cases, so they appear to make a case while doing as little actual scumhunting as possible.
But this might not be site meta :|
Quote
Tiruin:Same reason I thought Norris was scummy, I just had a better gut feeling on him, probably because he had more posts for me to read through and get a feel for him.What the hell are you even doing.On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?
Now that he flipped scum, I'll have to decide what this means for you.
Phanton of The Library for now.
@NQT
Quote
You seem to be against playstyle related questions. This is interesting because these seem to be the norm here. What kind of questions would you ask to get the ball rolling? I like in-character questions relating to the 'flavour' myself, but in my previous game here it was suggested that they're not effective either.Questions should be formed to gain more information relevant to the current game. General questions about a person's theory on something provides no real information. It's just WIFOM fuel that scum could use for a multitude of reasons.
"What did you gain/learn from doing that?" would be a relevant question.
But as opposed to starting with questions, I prefer starting with accusations. People are, in fact, not to be trusted until proven innocent.
If someone created a fairly large chunk of text defending someone's RVS vote on page 1, that could warrant a vote for an overreaction.
Another example of an accusation would be:
"NQT (blue is the informal FOS color, right?) failed to consider that, while it might be pro-town to "confirm" players, it is anti-town to do scum's thought processing for them, and warrants a warning. At worst, he's scum trying to communicate to his last buddy. How could you miss this if you are 'a logician by trade so my instinct is to consider all options that are logically possible'?"
And that was real, so you might want to address that.
Quote from: Edos
One of Imiknorris, Deathsword, and Nerjin is scum for the quick wagon on NQT.If Deathsword flips scum, I will lmfao.
Side note @ZU: Why don't you like the horizontal lines? If there's any real world application to DF, shouldn't it be to make beauty out of chaos and destruction, i.e., the UI of anything Bay12 related? ;D
Post by: Edosurist on January 24, 2013, 12:32:06 am
I will sig this and show it to all my friends.
Then laugh at the audacity of the scumteam.
Post by: Tiruin on January 24, 2013, 12:43:11 am
So...now? What is it to you? Since when did your suspicion shift?zombie uristI found it suspicious and thus voted accordingly.@ZU//UI//So what's up about it being Odd? And because of my odd-vote, you shifted, I see?PoTL: Can you give me your reads on what you got from that one-liner on me and Ford?
Ford
Is your logical system of tracking scum based on their vote pattern? It really looks muchly like it, as it seems you keep on pointing back onto the patterns in relation to those who've flipped scum.
As this seems like a metatell to me, other then you saying you're pretty sure. Seeing your past posts, you're seeing it from attitude derived from the BM...Everyone
What does Nerjin's death convey?
They either doxxed a townie or they doxxed themself to be out of the game. Either way they didn't leave a 'bah' message. As Nerjin's an active player and they run the BM let's assume the former.
Well who could Nerjin have targeted being so sure that the target was a mason? My guess: Captain Ford. Nerjin know's Ford's playstyle from the insider position of running a BM with Ford as a prominent player. Maybe Nerjin's read on Ford is that Ford likes to doublebluff, and when they saw Ford claim to be Mason, Nerjin took that to be a doublebluff and sent in the kill request. What do we all think?
I'd like to think I had something to do with it, but until the game's over, I won't know for sure. I really don't think it was me. But that's my opinion.
I was pretty sure you're town, but you sure are stirring up a hornet's nest. This was a really dumb thing to post, and Toaster nailed the reason why. I know you were trying to get all the information you could off of Nerjin, but this isn't information that should be discussed publicly. Figuring out publicly who Nerjin targeted is actually bad for the town. Better to keep the scum guessing.
So knock it off. :)
Lastly, I'm curious about your read on DS.
Zombie Urist:Ok, you see it from his probable viewpoint - that nobody would state what they think is utter trash and believes that it is reasonable, but...how did it shift from getting your vote, into the non-malevolent area? As in, the motives behind it?Captain Ford: What is your read on NQT?I think I handled that.QuoteHuuuh? You think DS's argument is bad but you see his point of view? This section is filled with contradictions.It is not a contradiction in the least. Seeing someone's point of view doesn't mean I agree with it.
I think his argument is bad, but I don't think he thinks it's bad. I think he honestly believes he has something, and while I think he's wrong, I don't think he's malicious.
PPE: Edosurist.
@PhantomWhu-?
Reasons:Why the OMGUS?From my experience, scum never OMGUS if they can help it. They've been taught not to do that, so I usually see it as a reckless-town tell.
This is also, from my experience, a tell scum try to push because it's a widely known tell, and it's easy to catch someone doing. Scum have a hard time making legit cases, so they appear to make a case while doing as little actual scumhunting as possible.
But this might not be site meta :|QuoteTiruin:Same reason I thought Norris was scummy, I just had a better gut feeling on him, probably because he had more posts for me to read through and get a feel for him.What the hell are you even doing.On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?
Now that he flipped scum, I'll have to decide what this means for you.
Phanton of The Library for now.
I...really don't get what you're trying to put out. You point out a quizzical post on my one-liner, and put some fallible information about an OMGUS (Generalizing.)
So...I can't follow how this ended up in you voting PoTL.
"NQT (blue is the informal FOS color, right?) failed to consider that, while it might be pro-town to "confirm" players, it is anti-town to do scum's thought processing for them, and warrants a warning. At worst, he's scum trying to communicate to his last buddy. How could you miss this if you are 'a logician by trade so my instinct is to consider all options that are logically possible'?"I believe he was stating ideas from an omniscient guess-point. Why PoTL over NQT? - it seems your point of suspicion is more clarified in the latter.
And that was real, so you might want to address that.
((Read up the BM to see which colors to use. :P Yes, blue = FoS, red = Vote))
Post by: Tiruin on January 24, 2013, 12:44:51 am
Hey obolisk!
What are your reads on everyone, and what is your take on the current events?
Why weren't you doing much? And who is your top suspect along with reasons why?
Post by: Edosurist on January 24, 2013, 01:21:07 am
O.o
I'm an idiot.
I misunderstood what Norris was saying in that quote. He wasn't questioning what YOU did, he was questioning what Ford did... by ambiguously quoting your post.
That's why I thought Norris was scummy.
When PoTL quoted that, saying nothing, I thought he echoed Norris's thoughts.
I guess that nullifies any claims I had at calling him out as scum.
As for the OMGUS statement, I thought that was the more substantial part of my case. I have never witnessed or read a recent game in which that tell correctly identifies maf. I've only seen it as gooftown.
When PotL used this tell, it made him appear as if he was doing scumhunting. In reality, it's one of the simplest and basic tells that exists. Scum find it difficult to make in depth cases, so the OMGUS tell is easy for them to use.
I don't see how this is fallible. I've seen this reverse OMGUS tell I'm using correctly find scum, or lazy/anti-town players, on multiple occasions on different mediums of play.
Also, *possible chainsaw defense noted.*
Post by: zombie urist on January 24, 2013, 01:33:24 am
Edosurist: I didn't say I don't like horizontal lines, I don't like many line breaks.
Like.
This.
Takes up too much space.
Captain Ford: Currently, who are your top scum-picks?
Post by: Dariush on January 24, 2013, 12:43:07 pm
Ford:
Dariush:Nope, you didn't. The best thing you did was give a pointlessly elaborate and obvious explanation of who must prefer to be seen as who by whom and that was it. There is no positive to town reason to claim mason.You haven't explained why you've done it.I have explained quite thoroughly WHY I did it. You clearly don't understand my explanation and don't want to. There is really nothing I can do about that.
Your outlook is 'willing to fakeclaim for no reason whatsoever' and your position is 'scum'. Got it.QuoteTherefore, you knowingly did something that has the possibility to hurt town without any benefit to it whatsoever.Not true. Explaining my position and outlook helps town to make a better judgment about me. Also, the argument about avoiding paying attention to claims is worthwhile information that could benefit the town, since it isn't necessarily obvious.
My argument said that making the claim doesn't hurt anyone. Paying attention to it is what causes harm.Are you really this stupid? For some reason in P22's deadchat you seemed kinda saner. You are the one who made the claim, for no reason whatsoever. I am the one who pays attention to it because only scum would claim so. If, in your own words, I am somehow causing harm by paying attention to your claim, you shouldn't have claimed so I wouldn't pay attention to it, because there's absolutely no benefit to the town from it.
Obolisk, drag your ass in here. What was the point of letting you in despite you not having a single BM completed if you aren't going to play?
ZU, hey look, there's another noncommital random question to the Bandwagon Target Of The Day! Do you actually suspect NQT or do you just want to get on the bandwagon without having to state your actual (absent) reasons for it (again)?
Tolyk:
Not much time to reread everything, but why's everyone suddenly "NQT"? Just don't really want to dig through all of that... >.>Did you really just tell us you don't want to read the actual game you are actually playing? Please tell me that you were mistaken and you meant some pile of literal shit instead. Please.
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 24, 2013, 01:52:23 pm
Post by: zombie urist on January 24, 2013, 02:11:10 pm
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 24, 2013, 03:53:00 pm
Deathsword didn't act like someone who had found a scumslip. He acted like scum trying to get a mislynch. I can't elaborate well on a phone.
Post by: notquitethere on January 24, 2013, 04:42:16 pm
Figuring out publicly who Nerjin targeted is actually bad for the town. Better to keep the scum guessing
That's not logic at all thats WIFOM. Also, other people never act perfectly logically.Okay, but I don't see anyone else putting forward a credible alternative. Look, it seems to me that the easiest way to hunt scum is to rule out who probably isn't scum. By working out who Nerjin and Norris might have rebounded off, we can get somewhere towards not lynching innocent players.
Either way, I don't really see why anyone would try to kill Captain Ford, as he is super scummy.
Or at least, that's what I thought was a good tactic. A lot of you seem to think that that way of scum-hunting is itself scummy. I've read your arguments, and I can certainly see the dangers of giving the scum too much information, and I'm willing to pursue other methods of investigation.
Edos
Questions should be formed to gain more information relevant to the current game. General questions about a person's theory on something provides no real information. It's just WIFOM fuel that scum could use for a multitude of reasons.Okay, I get how accusations and responses to accusations might be more telling, but you can't simultaneously accuse everyone, while you can ask everyone playstyle questions.
"What did you gain/learn from doing that?" would be a relevant question.
But as opposed to starting with questions, I prefer starting with accusations. People are, in fact, not to be trusted until proven innocent.
If someone created a fairly large chunk of text defending someone's RVS vote on page 1, that could warrant a vote for an overreaction.
Quote
"NQT failed to consider that, while it might be pro-town to "confirm" players, it is anti-town to do scum's thought processing for them, and warrants a warning. At worst, he's scum trying to communicate to his last buddy. How could you miss this if you are 'a logician by trade so my instinct is to consider all options that are logically possible'?"Just because I'm a logician (well, I've got a postgrad in philosophy with a large logic component) doesn't mean I see every possibility, more that I try to take every possibility that I have seen into account. I realise now, as discussed above, that what I took to be the most effective route forward in scumhunting at that juncture could be mistaken for scummy behaviour. My earnest attempt at getting everyone to engage in a scumhunting conversation obviously backfired.
And that was real, so you might want to address that.
Tolyk:
Not much time to reread everything, but why's everyone suddenly "NQT"? Just don't really want to dig through all of that... >.>See above. The tl:dr is I was trying to broach a conversation on who Nerjin and Norris' targets were, thinking that might be a good way of whittling down the scum from the townies. Apparently, that way of scum hunting looks scummy. What's your view?
Dariush
It's going to be hilarious if the entire scumteam just kinda murders itself.Would certainly save us some work. Though we still have to be vigilant, as there's a much greater chance of mislynches from here on in. Question: are you always so aggressive in your posts, Dariush? Or am I misreading your tone?
Obo
I don't know what other people's view is on you but you're going to have to lurk a little less if we're going to trust you. I agree with you on Death Sword, but then bussing isn't unknown.
Phantom
We haven't heard from you since Norris' death. What are you thinking? I know the game can be pretty fast paced at times but lurking or appearing to lurk doesn't do you any favours.
Tiruin
I agree that Edos' vote for Phantom looked odd: are you happy with his explanations? (I assume it's a 'he': please anyone do correct me on preferred pronouns). He still hasn't unvoted, that I can see.
I think a lot of the votes against me are bandwagoning- but that's just my initial interpretation and I don't want to jump to any conclusions that would lead to a mislynch: you can't all be scum so I must legitimately have seemed malignant, and so I'm sorry for less than optimal town-play.
Given that Death Sword voted alongside two confirmed scum for my quick lynch, I think he looks most scummiest at this juncture, but I'm open to other suggestions/arguments.
Post by: Teneb on January 24, 2013, 06:17:51 pm
Obolisk, you've been lurking for the entire game, so one small pfp post isn't going to be enough. Since you already said your read on me, give us your read on everyone else.
Ford
How can you bee so sure of his alignment?QuoteWhich leads me to the question, why are you going to such an effort to protect him?Shouldn't I try to protect any townie from scum?
Quote
...but there's something else, too...And there is absolutely no chance of Nerjin being oportunistic scum trying to ride on my case?
After you made your case, Nerjin popped in to support you with this gem:NQT I have a question for you. Why so interested in scum advice?
So NQT's been voted by scum, and you've been linked to scum by a common target. Sure, it's possible Nerjin was buddying you and voting for an ally. But those things just aren't that common.
That link alone might be a good enough reason for you to hang. But I want to hear what others think about it, first.
NQT
EveryoneI'm late to this, but I feel like I should repeat it: This is WIFOM. And it is often scummy.
What does Nerjin's death convey?
They either doxxed a townie or they doxxed themself to be out of the game. Either way they didn't leave a 'bah' message. As Nerjin's an active player and they run the BM let's assume the former.
Well who could Nerjin have targeted being so sure that the target was a mason? My guess: Captain Ford. Nerjin know's Ford's playstyle from the insider position of running a BM with Ford as a prominent player. Maybe Nerjin's read on Ford is that Ford likes to doublebluff, and when they saw Ford claim to be Mason, Nerjin took that to be a doublebluff and sent in the kill request. What do we all think?
Now, Captain Ford, tell me something
Tiruin:Here you claim your "I am a mason" wasn't a joke. Which you repeated quite a bit. Instead you claim you were making a serious point. Tell me, what point would that be.On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?
Aren't we all?Still makes no sense why he'd joke around as a Townie.
Yeah, I can see you still don't get it.Quote from: Googlefa·ce·tious
Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.
I didn't choose that word arbitrarily to describe it. It was deliberately and blatantly inappropriate. But I was also making a point when I said.
It was not "just a joke". It was not a serious claim, but I was making a serious point.
Now, you may be wondering why I voted you, and not NQT. That's because I realized something. See, I had never played a game with NQT before, or read the ongoing BM. So when NQT started acting friendly (something rare in a mafia game) towards me (and others), I mistook it for a buddying attempt, rather than what it truly was: he was, quite simply, an eager new player that wanted to play what he thought to be a good game. Then, I attacked him and started building a case on him, while he tried to defend himself. Then came you. The heroic Captain Ford, completely sure of NQT's alignment and personality, ready to defend him from the evil Deathsword.
Of course you know NQT isn't scum. That is because you are, and you know your team. You saw my attacks on NQT as an opportunity. An opportunity to turn my own arguments against me and drive a lynch on me. It was actually a good plan, I'll admit. Not only that, but by defending NQT, you gain his trust, further encouraging him to support my lynch. Then comes lazy lurker obolisk, and instead of giving reads on players or at least trying to find evidence, merely parrots what others have said. I guess had I kept on believing that NQT was the real danger you would have voted me and tried to drive a lynch on me, maybe even attempt to convice enough people to hammer.
Time to die, Captain Scum.
Also, it's Deathsword. Not Death Sword, not Deaths Word. I understand some poeple like to play with the names a bit, but I ask that you refer to me as either Deathsword or DS. It might be a bit of OCD on my part, but it simply strikes me as wrong to type my name in any other way.
Post by: Tiruin on January 25, 2013, 07:36:43 am
Given that Death Sword voted alongside two confirmed scum for my quick lynch, I think he looks most scummiest at this juncture, but I'm open to other suggestions/arguments.How does this make sense...DS, I believe, is not scum in that manner.
Most scummiest because "Hey, bro. You voted against me. Now them two scumbags are dead by the cops, so you're scum too, mm'kay?"
For one who claims an analytical outlook, I don't see how you're defending this vote correctly.
LEAFSNAIL: VOTECOUNT.
I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.Ahahaha. No.
You're stating without quoting. You want to save your buddy's hides by going after DS with that kind of reasoning?
If: Apparent Buddying; Then: Proof.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 25, 2013, 07:41:39 am
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library: Edosurist (1)
Captain Ford: Dariush, Deathsword (2)
TolyK:
Edosurist: Tiruin (1)
Deathsword: notquitethere, obolisk0430 (2)
notquitethere: zombie urist, Toaster (2)
zombie urist:
Toaster:
obolisk0430:
Not voting: Phantom of The Library, Captain Ford, TolyK (3)
Post by: Tiruin on January 25, 2013, 07:42:34 am
Votecount (6 votes to lynch):I think more than NQT are voting DS right there.
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library: Edosurist (1)
Captain Ford: Dariush, Deathsword (2)
TolyK:
Edosurist: Tiruin (1)
Deathsword: notquitethere (1)
notquitethere: zombie urist, Toaster (2)
zombie urist:
Toaster:
obolisk0430:
Not voting: Phantom of The Library, Captain Ford, TolyK, obolisk0430 (4)
Post by: Leafsnail on January 25, 2013, 07:45:58 am
Post by: Captain Ford on January 25, 2013, 12:22:16 pm
FordAh, sort of?
Is your logical system of tracking scum based on their vote pattern? It really looks muchly like it, as it seems you keep on pointing back onto the patterns in relation to those who've flipped scum.
They're at least a method of exerting pressure and performing an investigation. I honestly don't know how good of a link it really is. Thus why I said I wanted other people's opinions.
But the votes are meaningless outside of the context of what was being said and done. Imiknorris's vote was a random vote, so I can't conclude anything from it at all. Except that if it was truly random, it's unlikely that it was pointed at an ally (3 out of 12). Nerjin's vote, on the other hand, was very low pressure, and he unvoted soon afterwards. It could be that he was being gentle on an ally that he saw as likely to panic and give his team away. It's also possible he was doing it as a way to advise his ally to stop doing that. (Given how low pressure it was, it actually makes a lot of sense ... I just got a little more suspicious of NQT)
The only thing I can be sure of is that Nerjin did it to make it look like he was scumhunting.
Quote
As this seems like a metatell to me, other then you saying you're pretty sure. Seeing your past posts, you're seeing it from attitude derived from the BM...Somewhat. The BM helped me get used to him, but it's mostly the fact that we seem to have a similar sense of humor. Seeing he has a postgraduate, I think that puts us in the same age group, too. I think we're just similar people, and that makes it much easier for me to understand him.
...on the other hand, I have the hardest time in the world trying to understand you, Tiruin. >_>
Quote
Lastly, I'm curious about your read on DS.I took a look at what DeathSword was saying about NQT, and then starting reading NQT's posts carefully, looking for what he was describing. I eventually noticed some things in NQT's posts I hadn't before, and realized that DS wasn't just imagining things.Zombie Urist:Ok, you see it from his probable viewpoint - that nobody would state what they think is utter trash and believes that it is reasonable, but...how did it shift from getting your vote, into the non-malevolent area? As in, the motives behind it?Captain Ford: What is your read on NQT?I think I handled that.QuoteHuuuh? You think DS's argument is bad but you see his point of view? This section is filled with contradictions.It is not a contradiction in the least. Seeing someone's point of view doesn't mean I agree with it.
I think his argument is bad, but I don't think he thinks it's bad. I think he honestly believes he has something, and while I think he's wrong, I don't think he's malicious.
I only ever pressured DS to find out what the hell he was doing. Now that I've got it figured out, I'm done with him for now.
Deathsword:
FordI'm not?How can you bee so sure of his alignment?QuoteWhich leads me to the question, why are you going to such an effort to protect him?Shouldn't I try to protect any townie from scum?
But in all seriousness, -snip-
I followed that up with "But in all seriousness". I expanded your quote to reflect that.
It was a general statement about mafia strategy. I followed it up by explaining my real reasons in detail. I can see you're quoting it out of context in an attempt to make it look like I was claiming to know NQT's alignment, which isn't true.
All this statement means is that I saw you as more scummy, so I attacked you instead of him. Considering that you were on a bandwagon with two scum, I think it is very hard for you to claim that you didn't look scummy.
Quote
And there is absolutely no chance of Nerjin being oportunistic scum trying to ride on my case?That's absolutely what he was doing. Since the flip of Imiknorris, I think this link got a lot weaker. I find it extremely improbable that three scum would bandwagon on the same target. Of course, that could explain why the other two distanced themselves from it so quickly.
Quote
I did no such thing. I never claimed it wasn't a joke. It was indeed a joke.QuoteIt was not "just a joke". It was not a serious claim, but I was making a serious point.Here you claim your "I am a mason" wasn't a joke. Which you repeated quite a bit. Instead you claim you were making a serious point. Tell me, what point would that be.
"not just a joke" does not equal "not a joke". Do you understand the difference?
Quote
Now, you may be wondering why I voted you, and not NQT. That's because I realized something. See, I had never played a game with NQT before, or read the ongoing BM. So when NQT started acting friendly (something rare in a mafia game) towards me (and others), I mistook it for a buddying attempt, rather than what it truly was: he was, quite simply, an eager new player that wanted to play what he thought to be a good game. Then, I attacked him and started building a case on him, while he tried to defend himself. Then came you. The heroic Captain Ford, completely sure of NQT's alignment and personality, ready to defend him from the evil Deathsword.Actually, you're the one who gave me doubts about NQT. I pressured you to get you to explain your case, because I couldn't see what you were seeing. Now I can see what you saw, and I understand your reasons.
Of course you know NQT isn't scum. That is because you are, and you know your team. You saw my attacks on NQT as an opportunity. An opportunity to turn my own arguments against me and drive a lynch on me. It was actually a good plan, I'll admit. Not only that, but by defending NQT, you gain his trust, further encouraging him to support my lynch. Then comes lazy lurker obolisk, and instead of giving reads on players or at least trying to find evidence, merely parrots what others have said. I guess had I kept on believing that NQT was the real danger you would have voted me and tried to drive a lynch on me, maybe even attempt to convice enough people to hammer.
Time to die, Captain Scum.
I think your reasons were justified, and I don't think you're scum. At least, I don't think the case you were pushing makes you scummy.
Also, you're putting words in my mouth. At no point in my argument with you did I claim to know NQT's alignment. I only ever said "I can tell he's not panicking", and "he wasn't buddying you". I never claimed to know his alignment.
NQT is still quite possibly scum. I don't happen to think he is.
Also, on further rereading, Obolisk's reasoning on his vote actually looks pretty original. I haven't said anything like that, and neither has NQT. And I certainly didn't say anything like this:
Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.
Obolisk: I'd like to hear you elaborate more on this.
Also, a head's up. I'm going to busy the rest of today and the entire weekend. I won't be available again until monday, probably.
Post by: Edosurist on January 25, 2013, 08:46:45 pm
I'll be gone until1/27
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 26, 2013, 01:05:59 am
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 26, 2013, 01:42:09 pm
Unvote I just did a primary re-read and something has stuck out to me. I'll post later when I'm positive.And this.
Bluh bluh post tomorrow.At the time I posted that, the last thing that DS had posted was this:
Am sick, and feel like shit. I'll post tomorrow.So, that's what I ment by that. Similarities in actions.
Now, beyond that, we have this at the start of the game.
Followed up with this.QuoteAlso,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?
What we have here, is NQT making a joke. Deathsword then uses the joke as being completely serious. He then twists the joke in a way that doesn't even make sense. (See: definition of scumbuddies vs definition of buddying). To top it off, right before accusing NQT of making a joke, DS makes his own joke in the EXACT SAME WAY. (see, underlined italics, put in by me).Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?By not being scum.
More seriously, however: scum should act as they do in most games, which means they should act like town. I doubt the lack of a team-chat will change the scum's behaviour when it comes to this.
-snop-
NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.
-snop-
Either DS flipped out and tried to distance himself from anything that even vaugly resembled a tie to him being scum, or he tried to twist NQT's words to create an easier target. Either way, he looks like scum to me.
Post by: zombie urist on January 26, 2013, 02:17:52 pm
Post by: Dariush on January 26, 2013, 03:09:59 pm
So, that's what I ment by that. Similarities in actions.This is just incredible bullshit. You yourself said that you'll post later.
Scum Ford, stop ignoring me.
NQT:
Would certainly save us some work. Though we still have to be vigilant, as there's a much greater chance of mislynches from here on in. Question: are you always so aggressive in your posts, Dariush? Or am I misreading your tone?Your attempts at being reactively passive-agressive are hilarious. Yes, I am also so agressive. Now, pray tell me: was your FoS solely caused by my remark, with which you immediatly agree, or was it something else which your scummy ass didn't deign to quote?
Tolyk, drag your ass in here.
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 26, 2013, 09:17:17 pm
Post by: Tiruin on January 26, 2013, 10:44:03 pm
Not only am I realising now that multiple people including me said basically "I'll post later", but DS did post aftewards. So, whatever. The rest of my argument still stands.So how does any of your argument make any sense?
Also, are you quote mining there? DS was apparently talking about what I said, in relation to what he said, which also relates to that one quote regarding the 'buddying' you seem to be basing all of your everything on.
obolisk, why are you even basing things of what the flipped scum did, and what DS is doing 'I'm going to post later'. What kind of plan are you pulling.
Quote from: Sequence of events
Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?Also,Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?[...]QuoteAlso,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?[...]Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?Err, I was expecting a No. And...you're diverting onto Captain Ford?If you'd prefer I can reply in complete seriousness from now on. To make it absolutely clear: I am not making any sort of claim about anyone, least of all myself. Also, apologies, I meant 'Tiruin', not 'Captain Ford'- no bizarre diversion intended!NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.
You even reading what just happened?
Tell me, how does that case relate to your other weak accusations on DS?
Unfortunately, I am also pfp.
Deathsword didn't act like someone who had found a scumslip. He acted like scum trying to get a mislynch. I can't elaborate well on a phone.
I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.And you said you've re-read.
Explain the words highlighted in glowing red letters, please.
Ford
Tiruin:Err, that was what I was pointing at. You seem to be putting off NQT as town because of your experience with him = meta-tell. But seeing as where you're coming at judging from your posts, I believe that you're not on the same team, though I do appreciate you clarifying now.FordAh, sort of?
Is your logical system of tracking scum based on their vote pattern? It really looks muchly like it, as it seems you keep on pointing back onto the patterns in relation to those who've flipped scum.
They're at least a method of exerting pressure and performing an investigation. I honestly don't know how good of a link it really is. Thus why I said I wanted other people's opinions.
But the votes are meaningless outside of the context of what was being said and done. Imiknorris's vote was a random vote, so I can't conclude anything from it at all. Except that if it was truly random, it's unlikely that it was pointed at an ally (3 out of 12). Nerjin's vote, on the other hand, was very low pressure, and he unvoted soon afterwards. It could be that he was being gentle on an ally that he saw as likely to panic and give his team away. It's also possible he was doing it as a way to advise his ally to stop doing that. (Given how low pressure it was, it actually makes a lot of sense ... I just got a little more suspicious of NQT)
The only thing I can be sure of is that Nerjin did it to make it look like he was scumhunting.QuoteAs this seems like a metatell to me, other then you saying you're pretty sure. Seeing your past posts, you're seeing it from attitude derived from the BM...Somewhat. The BM helped me get used to him, but it's mostly the fact that we seem to have a similar sense of humor. Seeing he has a postgraduate, I think that puts us in the same age group, too. I think we're just similar people, and that makes it much easier for me to understand him.
...on the other hand, I have the hardest time in the world trying to understand you, Tiruin. >_>
[...]
Also,
Quote
NQT is still quite possibly scum. I don't happen to think he is.So if you've cleared him in your personal viewpoint, but in general see a possible variable for being scum, I believe you're subtly giving a tell on your alignment and his, aye?
Still, this may lead to confusion later on. Could you give your general reads on people? Which means your personal reads, please.
Quote
Also, a head's up. I'm going to busy the rest of today and the entire weekend. I won't be available again until monday, probably.Get well soon!
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 27, 2013, 11:02:34 am
Not only am I realising now that multiple people including me said basically "I'll post later", but DS did post aftewards. So, whatever. The rest of my argument still stands.So how does any of your argument make any sense?
Also, are you quote mining there? DS was apparently talking about what I said, in relation to what he said, which also relates to that one quote regarding the 'buddying' you seem to be basing all of your everything on.
obolisk, why are you even basing things of what the flipped scum did, and what DS is doing 'I'm going to post later'. What kind of plan are you pulling.
This part of my argument doesn't make sense. It was late when I posted it. I have the entire rest of the argument that was below my explenation of this part. And this wasnt the main reason I'm voting him anyway.
Quote mining is taking quotes out of context and stringing them together to make an argument right? It looks to me like that's what you're doing right here. I discounted the Captain Ford bit because he said he made a mistake, there's no compelling evidence to lead to either side of that particular argument, and IMO the whole thing is stupid.Quote from: Sequence of eventsDeathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?Also,Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?[...]QuoteAlso,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?[...]Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?Err, I was expecting a No. And...you're diverting onto Captain Ford?If you'd prefer I can reply in complete seriousness from now on. To make it absolutely clear: I am not making any sort of claim about anyone, least of all myself. Also, apologies, I meant 'Tiruin', not 'Captain Ford'- no bizarre diversion intended!NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.
You even reading what just happened?
Tell me, how does that case relate to your other weak accusations on DS?
It doesn't relate to the other accusation against DS, except that they're both against DS. Last I checked, you didn't need every accusation against someone to be strung together in some grand way that connected them all with some common thread. Besides, I retracted the other part of my accusation, because as Dariush pointed out, and as I realised, it was stupid.
How the crap is that relevent. What glowing letters?Unfortunately, I am also pfp.
Deathsword didn't act like someone who had found a scumslip. He acted like scum trying to get a mislynch. I can't elaborate well on a phone.I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.And you said you've re-read.
Explain the words highlighted in glowing red letters, please.
Post by: Tiruin on January 27, 2013, 11:29:44 am
Quote mining is taking quotes out of context and stringing them together to make an argument right?Quote from: Sequence of eventsDeathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?Also,Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?[...]QuoteAlso,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?[...]Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?Err, I was expecting a No. And...you're diverting onto Captain Ford?If you'd prefer I can reply in complete seriousness from now on. To make it absolutely clear: I am not making any sort of claim about anyone, least of all myself. Also, apologies, I meant 'Tiruin', not 'Captain Ford'- no bizarre diversion intended!NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.
You even reading what just happened?
Tell me, how does that case relate to your other weak accusations on DS?
Actually, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context) what I'm pointing out is how wrong your argument is.
What I saw in your reasoning behind DS was 'Similarities in actions.' Which you clarified into your argument.
What I want to know - now that you're focusing more on the matter - is how you see NQT's statement as a joke.QuoteEverything is 'relevent', sir.QuoteHow the crap is that relevent. What glowing letters?I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.And you said you've re-read.
Explain the words highlighted in glowing red letters, please.
Glowing letters narrowed down to:QuoteDefine and explain the bold and underlined.I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.
Post by: Tiruin on January 27, 2013, 11:31:17 am
Previous post got [ARGH] due to extra tags.
Fix'd.
Quote mining is taking quotes out of context and stringing them together to make an argument right?Quote from: Sequence of eventsDeathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?Also,Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?[...]QuoteAlso,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?[...]Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?Err, I was expecting a No. And...you're diverting onto Captain Ford?If you'd prefer I can reply in complete seriousness from now on. To make it absolutely clear: I am not making any sort of claim about anyone, least of all myself. Also, apologies, I meant 'Tiruin', not 'Captain Ford'- no bizarre diversion intended!NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.
You even reading what just happened?
Tell me, how does that case relate to your other weak accusations on DS?
Actually, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context) what I'm pointing out is how wrong your argument is.
What I saw in your reasoning behind DS was 'Similarities in actions.' Which you clarified into your argument.
What I want to know - now that you're focusing more on the matter - is how you see NQT's statement as a joke.
Quote
Everything is 'relevent', sir.QuoteHow the crap is that relevent. What glowing letters?I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.And you said you've re-read.
Explain the words highlighted in glowing red letters, please.
Glowing letters narrowed down to:
Quote
Define and explain the bold and underlined.I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 27, 2013, 01:07:50 pm
Perhaps the problem is that we're trying to make different points to eachother. The joke was this:Quote mining is taking quotes out of context and stringing them together to make an argument right?Quote from: Sequence of eventsDeathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?Also,Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?[...]QuoteAlso,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?[...]Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?Err, I was expecting a No. And...you're diverting onto Captain Ford?If you'd prefer I can reply in complete seriousness from now on. To make it absolutely clear: I am not making any sort of claim about anyone, least of all myself. Also, apologies, I meant 'Tiruin', not 'Captain Ford'- no bizarre diversion intended!NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.
You even reading what just happened?
Tell me, how does that case relate to your other weak accusations on DS?
Actually, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context) what I'm pointing out is how wrong your argument is.
What I saw in your reasoning behind DS was 'Similarities in actions.' Which you clarified into your argument.
What I want to know - now that you're focusing more on the matter - is how you see NQT's statement as a joke.
Underline added by me. Deathsword accuses NQT of trying to buddy him. Which is completely stupid. He then keeps hammering him for it here,Also,Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?Deathsword: How would you pretend not to be scum?...He's your buddy, isn't he?
NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.here,
here,DeathswordCopying questions others have asked you in the same game or those you have asked to others is extremely lazy. You may have asked each player a question, but the number of questions matter little if their content is poor, as the usual case with RVS question (as their point is to get the game going). One can type a wall of text and say absolutely nothing at all. And when Tiruin accused you of buddying up to me you were quite quick to deflect it with sarcasm and a repeated question directed at Ford/Tiruin (you claim to have meant to ask Tiruin that, instead of Ford, but I think you are just trying to cover up your slip).NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.It's efficient to get more than one person's perspective on the same issue, or do you disagree? If you'll look, I've asked everyone at least one question and most of them are different, which is more than can be said for some players.Quote from: NQTI'm sorry that you misinterpreted my friendly joking with Teruin as an earnest attempt to buddy up. Was that a deliberate twisting of the truth, Deathsword?No, I do indeed you were trying to buddy up with me, and then when I accused you of that together with a vote you were quick to vote me back. Why so jumpy, scum? Afraid you slipped and didn't cover up properly?
etc. etc. etc.DeathswordCopying questions others have asked you in the same game or those you have asked to others is extremely lazy. You may have asked each player a question, but the number of questions matter little if their content is poor, as the usual case with RVS question (as their point is to get the game going). One can type a wall of text and say absolutely nothing at all. And when Tiruin accused you of buddying up to me you were quite quick to deflect it with sarcasm and a repeated question directed at Ford/Tiruin (you claim to have meant to ask Tiruin that, instead of Ford, but I think you are just trying to cover up your slip).NQT: Are you going to keep asking the same question to more than one player, or are you going to try and make some original ones? Also, nice attempt to buddy up to me, scum.It's efficient to get more than one person's perspective on the same issue, or do you disagree? If you'll look, I've asked everyone at least one question and most of them are different, which is more than can be said for some players.Quote from: NQTI'm sorry that you misinterpreted my friendly joking with Teruin as an earnest attempt to buddy up. Was that a deliberate twisting of the truth, Deathsword?No, I do indeed you were trying to buddy up with me, and then when I accused you of that together with a vote you were quick to vote me back. Why so jumpy, scum? Afraid you slipped and didn't cover up properly?
In all of these, he accuses NQT of buddying him. Does NQT's statement look like buddying to you? Because it doesn't to me. It looks like a sarcastic quip about the possiblity of him and DS being scum.
How is me saying I re-read relevent? I want an actual explenation not "It's relevent because everything is relevent herp derp". What do you think it means?QuoteEverything is 'relevent', sir.QuoteHow the crap is that relevent. What glowing letters?I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.And you said you've re-read.
Explain the words highlighted in glowing red letters, please.
Glowing letters narrowed down to:NQT makes a joke/sarcastic quip in return to you saying he and DS are scumbuddies. DS accuses him of buddying him with this statement, which is absolutely, demonstrably, wrong. He then continues to hammer and hammer with a statement that is simply false. That smells like scum to me. Keep in mind, as well, scum have to get a myslynch on OVER HALF of the town, because they cant use their mafia-kill on them.QuoteDefine and explain the bold and underlined.I'he reread the entire thread. I'm not sure what the scum team is. However, Deathsword is on it. His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting. Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 27, 2013, 01:09:43 pm
Post by: Edosurist on January 27, 2013, 05:32:24 pm
NQT
If one/both of them are town, PoTL and obo or ford are next likely scum.
Post by: zombie urist on January 27, 2013, 08:24:57 pm
While I would generally feel both DS and NQT are essentially cleared, I am reading both of them as scum.Huh? Why?
Obolisk: Who do you think is scummiest after DS?
Post by: notquitethere on January 27, 2013, 09:31:37 pm
While I would generally feel both DS and NQT are essentially cleared, I am reading both of them as scum.That... that doesn't even make sense. How can we be essentially cleared if we still read as scum? You seem awfully eager to mislynch, Edosurist.
Post by: Phantom of The Library on January 27, 2013, 09:32:14 pm
@Phantom
Reasons:Why the OMGUS?From my experience, scum never OMGUS if they can help it. They've been taught not to do that, so I usually see it as a reckless-town tell.
This is also, from my experience, a tell scum try to push because it's a widely known tell, and it's easy to catch someone doing. Scum have a hard time making legit cases, so they appear to make a case while doing as little actual scumhunting as possible.
But this might not be site meta :|
So basically your entire case was based upon a meta that you aren't even sure is applicable and a gut feeling? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Foolproof case right there, your logic and pile of full-proof evidence are undeniable, you saw straight through me. Totes scum right here, you can tell it from the the way I'm totally building cases on the flimsiest of facts. Also by the way I'm lynching the guy who I just said is cleared of being scum, oh wait, that's you that's doing that.
Let's see you hang Edoscummist.
Post by: Toaster on January 28, 2013, 12:01:03 am
Post by: Leafsnail on January 28, 2013, 06:42:24 pm
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library:
Captain Ford: Dariush, Deathsword (2)
TolyK:
Edosurist: Phantom of the Library (1)
Deathsword: notquitethere, obolisk0430 (2)
notquitethere: zombie urist, Toaster, Edosurist (3)
zombie urist:
Toaster:
obolisk0430: Tiruin
Not voting: Captain Ford, TolyK (2)
Deadline in 4 days.
Phantom of the Library has requested replacement.
A whole bunch of prods will be sent.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 28, 2013, 08:51:39 pm
Could you give your general reads on people? Which means your personal reads, please.
Sure. However, I'm going to be excluding information that could help scum find masons.
ZU: Posting from his phone a lot.
NQT: Townie or mason. A bumbling newbie.
Toaster: Has been nice to me. I think it's genuine, and I don't think it's game-related, but it's worth noting that it's there.
Dariush: Is being belligerent. Not unusual for Dariush. No read.
Deathsword: Believes in his argument and defends it strongly. His paranoia is strange, but I don't think he's pushing a bad case on purpose.
Tiruin: Active and hunting is always a good sign. I'm giving Tiruin a wide berth because I don't want to end up in another quote war that goes nowhere.
Edosurist: Leaning slightly town.
Obolisk: Leaning rather scummy. Mostly lurkitude and him pushing a bandwagon vote to lynch DS without doing any original scumhunting.
Phantom of the Library: Slightly scummy. He's called for a replacement now, but I'm still bothered by some of his actions.
Tolyk: This game's lurkmeister. Deserves some strong pressure.
Quote
Err ... I said I was busy, not sick. ???QuoteAlso, a head's up. I'm going to busy the rest of today and the entire weekend. I won't be available again until monday, probably.Get well soon!
Dariush: At this point, it's obvious to me that we simply disagree. I'm not going to be able to convince you to change your mind, and you aren't going to be able to convince me to change mine, either.
I'll make one more try:
There is no positive to town reason to claim mason.
You are wrong.
Townies in this game have a power equivalent to vigilantes, with the notable exception that their kill never hits allies. They just have to trick scum into triggering it.
If a claim results in the death of a mafia member, then regardless of what that claim was or who made it, it was beneficial to the town.
Edosurist: What would we gain by lynching NQT that would make lynching a townie worthwhile? What specifically would make it more valuable than mislynching someone else?
Phantom: I realize you're requesting replacement, but could you fully explain your case against Edosurist? And maybe address this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3976636#msg3976636), which expands on his OMGUS statement and you appear to have missed.
Post by: zombie urist on January 28, 2013, 09:20:55 pm
Post by: Tiruin on January 29, 2013, 12:37:36 am
Tiruin:Ok...Could you give your general reads on people? Which means your personal reads, please.
Sure. However, I'm going to be excluding information that could help scum find masons.
"excluding information that could help scum find masons."
How does that relate in giving reads on people, hmm? Its pretty obvious you aren't a mason by your earlier posts preceding this, including what you just gave right there - fear of helping scum finding masons. Captain Ford, what could you give, other than your opinion, that would help scum anyway?
Who do you think are masons, and who do you think are scum?
Next, "I'm giving Tiruin a wide berth because I don't want to end up in another quote war that goes nowhere." > I'm assuming you're judging this by the BM.
...
That makes no sense [see: metatell]. You fear something may happen because of what you perceive happened before? Hah. Very funny. This seems sincere by how you appear to judge people, but this is a mistake you're doing that is apparent. By what you say, this is either confusion of wording, or obfuscation of written words made by me.
So based on your reads...Where is the follow up on those you say needs pressure, or for those who have a neutral read? You use blue in signalling who you suspect, why not red?
Is there something keeping you from putting a vote?
Edosurist: What would we gain by lynching NQT that would make lynching a townie worthwhile? What specifically would make it more valuable than mislynching someone else?How is Phantom suspicious because of that? And that note on Edos, you're relating him specifically to a townie, or am I misreading what you mean there?
Phantom: I realize you're requesting replacement, but could you fully explain your case against Edosurist? And maybe address this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3976636#msg3976636), which expands on his OMGUS statement and you appear to have missed.
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
TolyK: Get in here. You're doing...Nothing. Only noticed you're playing when Ford mentioned you - that is a bad thing to speak of your activity, by the way.
Obolisk:
Quote
NQT makes a joke/sarcastic quip in return to you saying he and DS are scumbuddies. DS accuses him of buddying him with this statement, which is absolutely, demonstrably, wrong. He then continues to hammer and hammer with a statement that is simply false. That smells like scum to me. Keep in mind, as well, scum have to get a myslynch on OVER HALF of the town, because they cant use their mafia-kill on them....With what statement?
Quote
Yep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?[...]It goes either way: DS could be using sarcasm because he knows what NQT was stating. Either NQT was being honest, or stating that he feels/knows DS is town by what he sees in him.
Also, you know that DS is falsely town, or falsely scum? I am confused by your statement there {see: bolded part}. Can you explain your reasoning from DS's words? From NQTs?
NQT didn't continue that joke, which rings me as suspicious. NQT: What were you hoping to state with that statement there?
Post by: zombie urist on January 29, 2013, 01:31:00 am
Reread pending.
Post by: notquitethere on January 29, 2013, 01:34:22 am
With the scumbuddy quip or with a different statement? Could you be more specific? I guess I was trying to show that I wasn't really too concerned with the accusations at hand.Quote from: n-cutieYep, and this is a transparent plea for advice given the ban on private messaging. So scumbuddy Deathsword, help me out here! In all seriousness, the more advice on scumhunting we can share, the less likely we are to lynch the wrong person. On that note, how would you Captain Ford pretend to be scum?[...]NQT didn't continue that joke, which rings me as suspicious. NQT: What were you hoping to state with that statement there?
Dariush
Your attempts at being reactively passive-agressive are hilarious. Yes, I am also so agressive. Now, pray tell me: was your FoS solely caused by my remark, with which you immediatly agree, or was it something else which your scummy ass didn't deign to quote?No, I was just putting some pressure on to see whether you really were always this aggressive. Apparently you are. Essentially a null-tell.
Unvote
Phantom's Inevitable Replacement and TolyK
Could you both answer my questions from page 13?
Everyone
TolyK hasn't posted in ages. Lurking is bad for everyone in the game. I suggest policy-lynch unless a replacement is found soon. What do people think?
Post by: zombie urist on January 29, 2013, 01:48:20 am
I guess I was trying to show that I wasn't really too concerned with the accusations at hand.This makes me lol.
Post by: notquitethere on January 29, 2013, 02:25:06 am
I guess I was trying to show that I wasn't really too concerned with the accusations at hand.This makes me lol.
Wait, is being cool as a cucumber a scumtell?
Post by: Edosurist on January 29, 2013, 02:37:59 am
To me, it either means they're both cleared because scum just wouldn't feel right doing something like that, or they're both scum because they did it for the lulz.
I guess a third option might be that one is maf, but not the other, but I don't think so.
For me, the purpose of a NQT or DS lynch would be an information lynch: Is the other clear?
We're at such an advantage that we could almost PoE it out until we lynch both scum.
Post by: Dariush on January 29, 2013, 04:46:05 am
Ford:
If a claim results in the death of a mafia member, then regardless of what that claim was or who made it, it was beneficial to the town.Claiming mason is a null-tell, as you've previously said. Quite surprisingly (coming from you), it is true. No scum would be fooled by this because they don't know who's town and who's mason, but masons would be immediatly suspicious because they know you're lying (if you're lying).
Also, what Tiruin said about the stupidity of the whole 'helping scum' thing. You've got to have some seriously inflated opinion of yourself if you think you can sway some scum's opinion about who is mason and who is not merely by giving your reads on people.
Edos:
I see the DS and NQT situation in two ways. We know Nerjin, Norris, and DS were all voting NQT.This is unbelievably stupid. DS's and NQT's alignment are in no ways connected. It is entirely possible (and quite likely) that three scum were voting the same townie (in fact, it's more likely than what you said about lulz). It is entirely possible that a town DS unknowingly joined in on the two-person bus. The only thing 'information lynching' would accomplish is getting rid of someone who might entirely be town for no reason and getting no information in the process.
To me, it either means they're both cleared because scum just wouldn't feel right doing something like that, or they're both scum because they did it for the lulz.
I guess a third option might be that one is maf, but not the other, but I don't think so.
For me, the purpose of a NQT or DS lynch would be an information lynch: Is the other clear?
Post by: Tiruin on January 29, 2013, 05:05:23 am
TolyK hasn't posted in ages. Lurking is bad for everyone in the game. I suggest policy-lynch unless a replacement is found soon. What do people think?I say nay, really.
This game has no quicktopic, no night phase, nothing that scum could hide other than their subtle [IF PM_MOD: YES, THEN KILL].
Which means lurking is...seemingly not much of a scumtell (in comparison with other games) here, but it speaks of the person. Extremely lazy. Probable.
Or if that person was scum, then the player really has the balls to waste time. That doesn't speak well of them, and that is why I say nay - nobody in their right minds would do such a thing just to...fulfill their wincon via time management.
Why did you unvote?
Man I don't even know anymore. Unvote.Same for you. Why did you unvote?
Reread pending.
Edos
I see the DS and NQT situation in two ways. We know Nerjin, Norris, and DS were all voting NQT.Woah there, sir. Information lynch?!
To me, it either means they're both cleared because scum just wouldn't feel right doing something like that, or they're both scum because they did it for the lulz.
I guess a third option might be that one is maf, but not the other, but I don't think so.
For me, the purpose of a NQT or DS lynch would be an information lynch: Is the other clear?
We're at such an advantage that we could almost PoE it out until we lynch both scum.
...Come to think of it, I think you're seeing it as from the lack of an NK - the danger of an NK - that the lynch replaces judgement on finding people's roles...Meaning, it acts as an inspect, eh?
Thing is, scumhunting. What are your reads on everyone?
PPE: Dar
Post by: Teneb on January 29, 2013, 05:12:16 am
Post by: notquitethere on January 29, 2013, 06:11:43 am
I say nay, really.Hmm... but the scum have an incentive to let the game drift to a deadline with a tie between lynch targets; staying quiet and then evening the vote before the deadline if necessary. So lurking is moderately scummy.
This game has no quicktopic, no night phase, nothing that scum could hide other than their subtle [IF PM_MOD: YES, THEN KILL].
Which means lurking is...seemingly not much of a scumtell (in comparison with other games) here, but it speaks of the person. Extremely lazy. Probable.
Or if that person was scum, then the player really has the balls to waste time. That doesn't speak well of them, and that is why I say nay - nobody in their right minds would do such a thing just to...fulfil their wincon via time management.
Quote
Why did you unvote?To policy-vote TolyK, like I suggested and did. I still think DS is pretty scummy, but we can't lynch all scummy players at the same time.
Post by: TolyK on January 29, 2013, 10:21:29 am
Post by: obolisk0430 on January 29, 2013, 10:25:59 am
Post by: Tiruin on January 29, 2013, 10:34:39 am
You know, tiruin, asking who someone thinks the masons are is a great idea. In fact, why don't we just ask the masons to reveal themselves and hand the mafia the game? [/sarcasm]I don't get your grammar, nor do I get what your point here is...
But you do raise a good situation. What would you do, hypothetically as scum, if someone revealed the four names?
Post by: Captain Ford on January 29, 2013, 02:49:24 pm
Quote
Maybe, but a claim is never made in a vacuum. It might not be the person who made the claim who ends up being targeted for the kill. Claiming mason may be part of a gambit to create a false impression of connections to other players, based on how they react to it.If a claim results in the death of a mafia member, then regardless of what that claim was or who made it, it was beneficial to the town.Claiming mason is a null-tell, as you've previously said. Quite surprisingly (coming from you), it is true. No scum would be fooled by this because they don't know who's town and who's mason, but masons would be immediatly suspicious because they know you're lying (if you're lying).
A claim is a tool, and only one of many. Its effectiveness depends on the one using it and the context in which it is made.[/pointingouttheobvious]
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Quote
Also, what Tiruin said about the stupidity of the whole 'helping scum' thing. You've got to have some seriously inflated opinion of yourself if you think you can sway some scum's opinion about who is mason and who is not merely by giving your reads on people.Point taken.
Tiruin:
Okay, I think "information that could help scum find masons" was too vague. I only withheld my opinions about who I thought was a mason. And honestly, the only person I suspect of being a mason is toaster, but then I also suspect him of being scum. I think he's on a team. I just don't know which one.I'm going to be excluding information that could help scum find masons.How does that relate in giving reads on people, hmm? Its pretty obvious you aren't a mason by your earlier posts preceding this, including what you just gave right there - fear of helping scum finding masons. Captain Ford, what could you give, other than your opinion, that would help scum anyway?
...and on rereading, Toaster's looking scummier than I previously thought. (I'll address him directly in a moment)
Quote
Who do you think are masons, and who do you think are scum?Finding the masons isn't my concern, and it shouldn't be yours either, Tiruin. So why are you so interested in finding them?
This is completely different from asking for my reads. You explicitly want me to help you find masons. Why?
Quote from: Tiruin
Next, "I'm giving Tiruin a wide berth because I don't want to end up in another quote war that goes nowhere." > I'm assuming you're judging this by the BM.Pardon me, but in the world I live in, past experience is the best indicator of future events. Out of two games I've played with you, I've gotten tangled up in language confusion both times. 2 out of 2. In other words, 100% of the time. Are you really trying to tell me I'm being irrational?
That makes no sense [see: metatell]. You fear something may happen because of what you perceive happened before? Hah. Very funny. This seems sincere by how you appear to judge people, but this is a mistake you're doing that is apparent. By what you say, this is either confusion of wording, or obfuscation of written words made by me.
And I've been giving you a wide berth, not ignoring you. You kind of seem to be your own worst enemy.
Tiruin, you've been fishing for people's alliances ever since the game began. Why? How does that help you? How does it help the town win?
Why do you want to know who I think the masons are? What would that information tell you?
Quote from: Tiruin
Edosurist: What would we gain by lynching NQT that would make lynching a townie worthwhile? What specifically would make it more valuable than mislynching someone else?How is Phantom suspicious because of that? And that note on Edos, you're relating him specifically to a townie, or am I misreading what you mean there?
Phantom: I realize you're requesting replacement, but could you fully explain your case against Edosurist? And maybe address this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3976636#msg3976636), which expands on his OMGUS statement and you appear to have missed.
I suppose my reads have changed a bit since I caught up.
Edosurist: His statement when he voted NQT was strange. I still read him as slightly town. But slightly dumber town.
Phantom: I'm reading him as slightly scummier. His vote seemed lazy because he missed pieces of the discussion when he voted. But that could simply be from lack of time.
Something about the way he played the Q&A game is pinging my scumdar for some reason.
Tolyk: Oh hey, he's posted finally. Apparently one of his posts got eaten. Still, one missing post in that timespan still makes him very lurky.
Toaster: Aloof, friendly, bandwagon vote (with a good reason), playing up reason for bandwagon. Everyone else I'm uncertain about, but with toaster, it all just clicks.
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Toaster:
notquitethere is still doing it and is still scum:You found NQT scummy for answering ZU's question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3975737#msg3975737)?ZU
My read is informed by Nerjin's demise: who is the person he would have tried to kill? Captain Ford is the most likely answer, as I explained in my post above. This isn't buddying, this is logic. If someone can give me a convincing counterfactual to my earlier argument then I'll revise my opinion.
That was either lazy or intentional. NQT didn't say anything new. He made a mistake when he stated that information in the first place, but I don't see a problem with him using it to explain his read since it's already out there.
You've been aloof since the game started, commenting on the proceedings but not applying pressure to anyone. You jumped on the NQT bandwagon late -- for good reason, admittedly -- but you aren't looking closely at his posts. To me, a member of the town should be concerned about whether or not he's made the right choice, and should be more careful in analyzing his target's posts than you have been.
Your overall behavior -- aloofness, applying little pressure, jumping on a slip by a weak player and playing it up -- just strikes me as classic scum behavior. Given your experience, this profile fits very well. Ever since you started attacking NQT, you've barely even talked to anyone else.
I'm confident that's an accurate summary of your behavior. But if you can offer greater insight, I would like to hear it.
Post by: Teneb on January 29, 2013, 05:13:39 pm
Obolisk, you've been lurking for the entire game, so one small pfp post isn't going to be enough. Since you already said your read on me, give us your read on everyone else.Stop being lazy and do it.
Ford:
Nice dodge there. You haven't answered what I asked. WHAT POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE?Quote from: FordQuote from: MeI did no such thing. I never claimed it wasn't a joke. It was indeed a joke.Quote from: FordIt was not "just a joke". It was not a serious claim, but I was making a serious point.Here you claim your "I am a mason" wasn't a joke. Which you repeated quite a bit. Instead you claim you were making a serious point. Tell me, what point would that be.
"not just a joke" does not equal "not a joke". Do you understand the difference?
Quote from: Ford
And yet again you ignore part of what I typed. Have you nothing to say about my accusations? Because, together with the quote above, it looks like you are trying to ignore this.Quote from: MeNow, you may be wondering why I voted you, and not NQT. That's because I realized something. See, I had never played a game with NQT before, or read the ongoing BM. So when NQT started acting friendly (something rare in a mafia game) towards me (and others), I mistook it for a buddying attempt, rather than what it truly was: he was, quite simply, an eager new player that wanted to play what he thought to be a good game. Then, I attacked him and started building a case on him, while he tried to defend himself. Then came you. The heroic Captain Ford, completely sure of NQT's alignment and personality, ready to defend him from the evil Deathsword.Actually, you're the one who gave me doubts about NQT. I pressured you to get you to explain your case, because I couldn't see what you were seeing. Now I can see what you saw, and I understand your reasons.
Of course you know NQT isn't scum. That is because you are, and you know your team. You saw my attacks on NQT as an opportunity. An opportunity to turn my own arguments against me and drive a lynch on me. It was actually a good plan, I'll admit. Not only that, but by defending NQT, you gain his trust, further encouraging him to support my lynch. Then comes lazy lurker obolisk, and instead of giving reads on players or at least trying to find evidence, merely parrots what others have said. I guess had I kept on believing that NQT was the real danger you would have voted me and tried to drive a lynch on me, maybe even attempt to convice enough people to hammer.
Time to die, Captain Scum.
I think your reasons were justified, and I don't think you're scum. At least, I don't think the case you were pushing makes you scummy.
Also, you're putting words in my mouth. At no point in my argument with you did I claim to know NQT's alignment. I only ever said "I can tell he's not panicking", and "he wasn't buddying you". I never claimed to know his alignment.
NQT is still quite possibly scum. I don't happen to think he is.
Edourist:
While I would generally feel both DS and NQT are essentially cleared, I am reading both of them as scum. Because we greatly outnumber scum, I think we could go for an information lynch to double-check.This is incredibly lazy and quite a bit scummy. Tell me: should we, instead of scumhunting, just lynch people that seem scummy to you until we hit scum?
NQT
If one/both of them are town, PoTL and obo or ford are next likely scum.
NQT:
TolyK hasn't posted in ages. Lurking is bad for everyone in the game. I suggest policy-lynch unless a replacement is found soon. What do people think?Also somewhat lazy. You are avoiding scumhunting by going for a policy lynch. That is not an excuse to stop hunting.
ZU: Would you mind doing some real posts instead of the activelurking you've done so far?
Mod: Prod TolyK. Prod him hard.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 29, 2013, 06:36:24 pm
Post by: Tiruin on January 29, 2013, 07:10:59 pm
Captain Ford
Quote
[...]And I've been giving you a wide berth, not ignoring you. You kind of seem to be your own worst enemy.[...]And here is me taking this as a passive insult at my playstyle. A really bad one.
If its language confusion you care so much about, why not address it in the first place other than giving one-off statements which can only be discerned by guesswork, hmm? Or perhaps, you could just tell me, OOC what you see wrong with it so I can improve - I'm no stranger to that, good sir. I'm not saying you're being irrational, but I'm saying that you should stop judging by previous experiences if you've played with the person...one or two times!
Quote
Tiruin, you've been fishing for people's alliances ever since the game began. Why? How does that help you? How does it help the town win?Let me await obolisk's statement before giving in a (somewhat) controversial post. As for the rest of your queries: I've been 'fishing' - generally, poking - at those people who were muchly inactive and vague with their cases and only them. It does not specifically help me as it shows everyone what those particular people have. What I guess you're doing here is subtly defending your statement on 'information that could help scum find masons', but I'll answer anyway.
The reads (not fishing for their alliances) help everyone else see what the person sees in relation to who is suspicious from their eyes. The rest is up to the person to follow or analyze.
Quote
I only withheld my opinions about who I thought was a mason.And this deviates from that sentence of 'information that could help scum find masons'. What makes you think your word holds more...essence as to who might be a mason or not?
Post by: Captain Ford on January 29, 2013, 10:14:24 pm
Deathsword:
Ford:Hell if I know. I suppose it might have had something to do with the logic above it. Maybe something about "mason claims not meaning anything."[/sarcasm]Nice dodge there. You haven't answered what I asked. WHAT POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE?Quote from: FordQuote from: MeI did no such thing. I never claimed it wasn't a joke. It was indeed a joke.Quote from: FordIt was not "just a joke". It was not a serious claim, but I was making a serious point.Here you claim your "I am a mason" wasn't a joke. Which you repeated quite a bit. Instead you claim you were making a serious point. Tell me, what point would that be.
"not just a joke" does not equal "not a joke". Do you understand the difference?
I've only been saying that about once a day on average. I seriously thought that part of your statement was rhetorical.
...but if you still don't get it, then here's the ultra-secret-impossibly-complex-reason-that-no-one-seems-to-be-able-to-figure-out-on-their-own:
Spoiler: The Point Was... (click to show/hide)
A real shocker, I know.
Quote from: Deathsword
Quote from: FordAnd yet again you ignore part of what I typed. Have you nothing to say about my accusations? Because, together with the quote above, it looks like you are trying to ignore this.Quote from: DeathswordNow, you may be wondering why I voted you, and not NQT. That's because I realized something. See, I had never played a game with NQT before, or read the ongoing BM. So when NQT started acting friendly (something rare in a mafia game) towards me (and others), I mistook it for a buddying attempt, rather than what it truly was: he was, quite simply, an eager new player that wanted to play what he thought to be a good game. Then, I attacked him and started building a case on him, while he tried to defend himself. Then came you. The heroic Captain Ford, completely sure of NQT's alignment and personality, ready to defend him from the evil Deathsword.Actually, you're the one who gave me doubts about NQT. I pressured you to get you to explain your case, because I couldn't see what you were seeing. Now I can see what you saw, and I understand your reasons.
Of course you know NQT isn't scum. That is because you are, and you know your team. You saw my attacks on NQT as an opportunity. An opportunity to turn my own arguments against me and drive a lynch on me. It was actually a good plan, I'll admit. Not only that, but by defending NQT, you gain his trust, further encouraging him to support my lynch. Then comes lazy lurker obolisk, and instead of giving reads on players or at least trying to find evidence, merely parrots what others have said. I guess had I kept on believing that NQT was the real danger you would have voted me and tried to drive a lynch on me, maybe even attempt to convice enough people to hammer.
Time to die, Captain Scum.
I think your reasons were justified, and I don't think you're scum. At least, I don't think the case you were pushing makes you scummy.
Also, you're putting words in my mouth. At no point in my argument with you did I claim to know NQT's alignment. I only ever said "I can tell he's not panicking", and "he wasn't buddying you". I never claimed to know his alignment.
NQT is still quite possibly scum. I don't happen to think he is.
I thought you didn't like WoTs? (Seriously, I was trying to keep it short since you said you didn't like them. I've even stopped putting newlines between quotes and my own text to shorten my posts. You can even check that if you want to)
But since you asked for it, I'll give you the long version.
Quote from: Deathsword
Now, you may be wondering why I voted you, and not NQT.
Not really.
Quote from: Deathsword
That's because I realized something.
Good for you! Have a cookie (http://freeinternetcookies.com/)!
Quote from: Deathsword
See, I had never played a game with NQT before, or read the ongoing BM. So when NQT started acting friendly (something rare in a mafia game) towards me (and others), I mistook it for a buddying attempt, rather than what it truly was: he was, quite simply, an eager new player that wanted to play what he thought to be a good game.
Oh. This is new. Go on.
Quote from: Deathsword
Then, I attacked him and started building a case on him, while he tried to defend himself.
Uh huh, yeah. I'm with you so far.
Quote from: Deathsword
Then came you. The heroic Captain Ford, completely sure of NQT's alignment and personality, ready to defend him from the evil Deathsword.
I never said I was certain of NQT's alignment. You are putting words in my mouth.
I never said you were evil, either. Just that you had a shit case. Which you did, and it looks like you are admitting now. Bravo.
Quote from: Deathsword
Of course you know NQT isn't scum. That is because you are, and you know your team.
Intriguingly, you are currently displaying a far greater level of certainty in my alignment than I ever have in yours, or in NQTs. But go on.
Quote from: Deathsword
You saw my attacks on NQT as an opportunity.
Sure. To attack someone for being paranoid and making a shit case.
Quote from: Deathsword
An opportunity to turn my own arguments against me and drive a lynch on me.
If by "turn my own arguments against me" you mean "point out that I was being paranoid, obstinate and pushing a shit case", then yes. Otherwise, no.
And that would be a great argument, if I'd ever advocated for a lynch on you. Which I haven't.
Quote from: Deathsword
It was actually a good plan, I'll admit.
Nice job patting yourself on the back there. Yep. Considering it's your plan and all.
Quote from: Deathsword
Not only that, but by defending NQT, you gain his trust, further encouraging him to support my lynch.
That's a seriously devious plan. I'd have to work really hard getting the person you attacked with a paranoid and shitty case to vote you. Yep. Real hard. There's no way he would have voted you on his own if I hadn't intervened.
Quote from: Deathsword
Then comes lazy lurker obolisk, and instead of giving reads on players or at least trying to find evidence, merely parrots what others have said.
Yeah, you're delusional if you think that was planned out. You really are paranoid, aren't you?
Quote from: Deathsword
I guess had I kept on believing that NQT was the real danger you would have voted me and tried to drive a lynch on me, maybe even attempt to convice enough people to hammer.
I don't understand what the point of this statement is. Maybe you're saying, "I guess if I had kept pushing a shit case, people would eventually catch on that I'm a moron and off me."
Quote from: Deathsword
Time to die, Captain Scum.
Let this be our final battle!
* * *
Okay, I've been through the whole thing, and learned some new things. The first is that you've suddenly changed your stance on NQT, accepting all of the arguments I was pushing, all in order to lead a charge against me. Could you be any more hotheaded?
Secondly, you're even more paranoid and delusional than I thought.
Third, even more lazy. That long diatribe was all conjecture and hyperbole. The only thing of substance in there was your subtle admission that you were wrong and I was right, and that's a very weird way to start an attack on somebody. But I'm happy you did it anyway. Good boy! Have another cookie (http://freeinternetcookies.com/).
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Post by: zombie urist on January 29, 2013, 10:19:52 pm
Post by: Tiruin on January 30, 2013, 12:04:22 am
Never format a post like that again.It's easy to read though :P Kudos to Ford for making it easy on the eyes, despite the length of it.
Loving that link btw.
Ford:
If you've got time, answer this question instead of what I asked in the above. [Which is also what I'm asking obolisk]
Suppose someone claimed mason and said four names including his own, what would you think of that?
Post by: zombie urist on January 30, 2013, 12:05:34 am
Sorry about the lack of posts. I'll try to get something substantial tomorrow.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 30, 2013, 12:46:44 am
Ford:It's practically guaranteed to not be an accurate listing. If it were, the game would practically be over, and where's the fun in that? Of course, I can't assume it's false, either. Best to assume nothing and look for connections later.
If you've got time, answer this question instead of what I asked in the above. [Which is also what I'm asking obolisk]
Suppose someone claimed mason and said four names including his own, what would you think of that?
But it also depends on the person making the claim and the context. If any of the players are dead, of course, it could make a big difference. If any of them were on my team, I'd have a much better idea about the veracity of the claim. If the person was actually on my team and actually listed the full team roster ... well, that would be Fun.
Post by: Toaster on January 30, 2013, 03:17:42 pm
ZU, Toaster and Captain Ford - on Why We Shouldn't Discuss the Actions of Confirmed ScumFiguring out publicly who Nerjin targeted is actually bad for the town. Better to keep the scum guessingThat's not logic at all thats WIFOM. Also, other people never act perfectly logically.Okay, but I don't see anyone else putting forward a credible alternative. Look, it seems to me that the easiest way to hunt scum is to rule out who probably isn't scum. By working out who Nerjin and Norris might have rebounded off, we can get somewhere towards not lynching innocent players.
Either way, I don't really see why anyone would try to kill Captain Ford, as he is super scummy.
Or at least, that's what I thought was a good tactic. A lot of you seem to think that that way of scum-hunting is itself scummy. I've read your arguments, and I can certainly see the dangers of giving the scum too much information, and I'm willing to pursue other methods of investigation.
You're running down a dangerous road here. We do know that Nerjin and UI thought they had identified a mason enough to warrant a kill attempt, and that it failed, offing themselves. What we don't know is who they targeted. I see what you're saying- that this eliminates the possibility that the target was scum, but it also means that the target isn't a mason, either- which is further information for the remaining scum. Also, trying to guess who the scum targeted and why is verging on WIFOM. I say leave the matter alone.
Further, Edos raises a good point:
I see the DS and NQT situation in two ways. We know Nerjin, Norris, and DS were all voting NQT.
To me, it either means they're both cleared because scum just wouldn't feel right doing something like that, or they're both scum because they did it for the lulz.
I guess a third option might be that one is maf, but not the other, but I don't think so.
For me, the purpose of a NQT or DS lynch would be an information lynch: Is the other clear?
We're at such an advantage that we could almost PoE it out until we lynch both scum.
I tend to agree that Nerjin's bandwagon vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3965870#msg3965870) on NQT makes NQT a somewhat unlikely scum choice.
I reread NQT's posts and, other than the point I originally had an issue with, didn't get much of a scum read from him. Put those together and you get Unvote NQT.
However, I disagree with Edos's quoted suggestion that we should consider setting up any sort of chain lynch. We might have numbers on our side, but that's no reason to start lynching in lieu of hunting.
Captain Ford:
Toaster:notquitethere is still doing it and is still scum:You found NQT scummy for answering ZU's question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3975737#msg3975737)?ZU
My read is informed by Nerjin's demise: who is the person he would have tried to kill? Captain Ford is the most likely answer, as I explained in my post above. This isn't buddying, this is logic. If someone can give me a convincing counterfactual to my earlier argument then I'll revise my opinion.
No. I found him scummy for trying to root out masons in public. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3975182#msg3975182) I have expanded on (and excused) his actions above. The post you've quoted is just me reapplying the vote, with a note that he is continuing to determine the identity of town versus mason. I now see he was thinking in terms of town versus scum instead, so I have dropped the attack.
And I blame my poor activity on a somewhat apathetic attitude to this game, and giving everything else priority. I'm taking the time now to do it justice, though.
Obolisk:
So, as far as me saying that Darksword had just done what the last two mafia had done, I present this...Unvote I just did a primary re-read and something has stuck out to me. I'll post later when I'm positive.And this.Bluh bluh post tomorrow.At the time I posted that, the last thing that DS had posted was this:Am sick, and feel like shit. I'll post tomorrow.So, that's what I ment by that. Similarities in actions.
I have found in the past that is only a useful scumtell if it keeps happening. Any one-off occurrence is insufficient- it needs to be a pattern. (Also I'm less certain of it now than I was a year ago.)
In other news, your case on Deathsword is flimsy. Who else do you suspect and why? I'd love at least two names.
Deathsword:
First off, obolisk I asked for your reads on everyone one. You proceeded to ignore that. Here's when I asked it, so you can't claim to be ignorant of it:Obolisk, you've been lurking for the entire game, so one small pfp post isn't going to be enough. Since you already said your read on me, give us your read on everyone else.Stop being lazy and do it.
Do you really think asking for all his reads rather than a few scum reads is really that good use of the time of everyone involved?
I'm not going to quote your giant post where you vote Captain Ford (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3978042#msg3978042), but if I read it right, your case is that he's "chainsawing*" for NQT? Do you have anything besides that?
*I say "chainsawing" because while you're accusing him of something similar, except in this case you're assuming NQT is town and Ford is scum.
Dariush:
Claiming mason is a null-tell, as you've previously said.
Wait, what?
This is a 180˚ spin from your previous opinion:
Sure. You miss just one crucial thing: there's no benefit to anyone by claiming mason, truthfully or otherwise. You haven't explained why you've done it, only why paying attention to it hurts town. Except that if you didn't claim it, there would be nothing to pay attention to. Therefore, you knowingly did something that has the possibility to hurt town without any benefit to it whatsoever. Die, scum.
Why the change? Or, perhaps more accurately, which one is your your real opinion?
Zombie U:
Man I don't even know anymore. Unvote.
Reread pending.
So what did you find out? Who are your top three scum picks and why?
TolyK has only voted one time, and it was obviously just a RVS vote. Until he decides to actually contribute to the game, my vote will remain on him.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 30, 2013, 04:21:17 pm
Tolyk. Come out and play.
Post by: zombie urist on January 30, 2013, 05:44:13 pm
I don't think both NQT and DS are scum. They've been going at it too powerfully.
Obolisk's case on DS is kinda BS IMO. I've did a reread, but I still can't really put my finger on how that thing escalated.
Captain Ford is still kinda scummy.
Post by: Captain Ford on January 30, 2013, 06:11:19 pm
Obolisk's case on DS is kinda BS IMO. I've did a reread, but I still can't really put my finger on how that thing escalated.Which thing are you referring to here? I'm not sure if you're talking about obo, DS, obo's case on DS, or ... something else entirely. ???
Post by: zombie urist on January 30, 2013, 06:45:16 pm
Post by: Dariush on January 31, 2013, 06:20:01 am
Dariush:It is a nulltell insofar as alignment of the claimer is concerned. Everyone is equally likely to claim or fakeclaim mason. However, fakeclaiming it is stupid, has no benefit and hurts town by having a possibility of revealing actual masons. Trueclaiming is still stupid because it still has no benefit and the claiming mason should be able to figure out that scum would think that nobody would fakeclaim due to being suspected by masons, so the claim must be a true one.Claiming mason is a null-tell, as you've previously said.
Wait, what?
This is a 180˚ spin from your previous opinion:Sure. You miss just one crucial thing: there's no benefit to anyone by claiming mason, truthfully or otherwise. You haven't explained why you've done it, only why paying attention to it hurts town. Except that if you didn't claim it, there would be nothing to pay attention to. Therefore, you knowingly did something that has the possibility to hurt town without any benefit to it whatsoever. Die, scum.
Why the change? Or, perhaps more accurately, which one is your your real opinion?
Over time I realized that stupid town may also fakeclaim mason for some unknown reason, but that still doesn't change the fact that Ford is a stupid and scummy piece of fuck.
ZU:
Not much. We're still literally at D1. The flips have been pretty much useless. I still find Ford and NQT's mutual defense to be suspicious. I'm also suspicious of Dariush going tunnel. Tunnel Chunnel. And how quickly he jumped on the Ford wagon.I should probably just set up a collection of standard responses for various groundless accusations.
Accusation of bandwagon:
This is not a bandwagon. If you think any of the arguments involved in my supposed bandwagoning vote are weak, nonexistent, pulled out of my ass or simply copied off someone else, please quote them and explain exactly how they are weak, nonexistent, pulled out of my ass or simply copied off someone else. Otherwise, be so kind and fuck yourself in the eye.
Accusation of tunneling:
This is not a tunnel. If you disagree with any of my arguments, please quote them and explain how exactly you disagree with them. Otherwise, be so kind and fuck yourself in the eye.
Also, I find it hilarious how instead of actually scumhunting you say 'there's not much' and then proceed to vote me for no reason whatsoever. Nice going.
Ford:
Spoiler: Le hugeass quote (click to show/hide)
Post by: zombie urist on January 31, 2013, 02:40:52 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on January 31, 2013, 04:51:43 pm
Congratulations! This post contains perhaps the largest ratio of effort put in it to its usefulness I've ever seen on this forum. By the way, willingness to write this unreadable pointless WoT instead of doing something useful (like scumhunting) is not a sign of townness, you know.If it irritated you, then it was worth it. :)
Never format a post like that again.Don't worry, I won't. It was just too much fun to write. But I'll never, ever do it again. I swear. Next time I do something like that it will be spoilered and well-organized so the entire group doesn't have to suffer for it.
Post by: Edosurist on February 01, 2013, 02:31:23 am
Post by: Dariush on February 01, 2013, 06:51:39 am
you were the ladt person to vote ford for fis mason-null thing.And voting last due to timezones because synonymous with 'bandwagoning' when?
thats afaik the entire basis for your argument.No, it wasn't. Just because you fail at reading doesn't mean I didn't give plenty of other reasons.
tunneling = focus on 1 guy.You are confusing the words 'voting' and 'tunneling'.
apart from minor calling out lurkers, u did no further hunting.The only time I 'called out lurkers' was about Tolyk, who didn't post for a week while posting elsewhere.
So, basically you read only the last page or so, decided to summon a bullshitful case on me out of nowhere while ignoring pretty much everyone else (yeah, chalk up hypocrisy too) and went back to lurking your ass off. You're adorable, ZU.
Post by: obolisk0430 on February 01, 2013, 09:09:23 am
Hey Tiruin, let me help you clear that right up. I am also accusing you of rolefishing for the masons. When I made the post, I was trying to quote you, but it was on my phone, and it was really hard to cut out all the other bits people would know what I was talking about. But basically, only scum is helped by figuring out who's a mason. To answer your question, if I was scum, and someone revealed who the masons were, personally, I'd wait to see if the final member of the mafia does anything, seeing as how there are only two left. If he uses his day kill and it works, I would begin offing them. If nothing happend, I would probably see if I could dig up any case on the guy who said who the masons were, and see about using the general WTFness of that to help the case.QuoteTiruin, you've been fishing for people's alliances ever since the game began. Why? How does that help you? How does it help the town win?Let me await obolisk's statement before giving in a (somewhat) controversial post. As for the rest of your queries: I've been 'fishing' - generally, poking - at those people who were muchly inactive and vague with their cases and only them.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 01, 2013, 06:51:06 pm
The vote is currently tied, and our chances of lynching scum drop remarkably if we leave it that way.
Tolyk promised to post, and failed to deliver. From what I've read, this is a very consistent scumtell on these boards. He's been active elsewhere on the forums, and for whatever reason he is deliberately ignoring this game. It would frustrate me to no end if I (the most active player in the game) was lynched over someone who hasn't made a good post in weeks. But if left at a tie, then the town is deprived of the chance to choose.
So would somebody, anybody, please cast a deciding vote before the day ends?
Post by: Captain Ford on February 01, 2013, 07:03:05 pm
It occurred to me that it might not be obvious to everyone who's tied for votes, so I assembled an unofficial votecount.
Unofficial Votecount:
Dariush: zombie urist (1)
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library:
Captain Ford: Dariush, Deathsword, Tiruin (3)
TolyK: notquitethere, Toaster, Captain Ford (3)
Edosurist: Phantom of the Library (1)
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: Edosurist (1)
zombie urist:
Toaster:
obolisk0430:
Not voting: TolyK
* Since I can't edit this, I've double-checked it to make sure everyone is listed, and that it's consistent with what's showing on LurkerTracker. I can't do anything more than that.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 01, 2013, 07:14:58 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 01, 2013, 07:27:50 pm
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library:
Captain Ford: Dariush, Deathsword, Tiruin (3)
TolyK: notquitethere, Toaster, Captain Ford (3)
Edosurist: Phantom of the Library (1)
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: Edosurist (1)
zombie urist:
Toaster:
obolisk0430:
Not voting: zombie urist, TolyK (1)
Votes after this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3991775#msg3991775) did not count.
There is a tie. Any mafia member can send me a PM to break the tie. The choice is between Captain Ford and TolyK.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 01, 2013, 07:39:50 pm
No time specified, though.
Post by: notquitethere on February 01, 2013, 07:46:41 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 01, 2013, 07:52:14 pm
Suspected Hacker Pulled from Burning House
February 2nd, 2030
A man is in a critical condition today following a major blaze that engulfed his home. The fire began due to a gas leak in his home. Police have not ruled out the possibility of attempted suicide, but point out that the gas leak and subsequent detonation could have been triggered remotely by a determined group of hackers.
Police have confirmed that the man is suspected to be known as TolyK online, a "mason" (or leader) in the group Pseudonym. Charges are expected to be brought against him once his condition is stable.
TolyK has been lynched.
He was a mason.
Deadline is exactly one week away from this post - that's about 1am GMT on the 9th of February.
With 10 alive it takes 6 votes to lynch.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 01, 2013, 08:07:53 pm
Also, the lynch votecount is missing ZU entirely.
Post by: notquitethere on February 01, 2013, 09:32:16 pm
Post-lynch Analysis
Scum would probably not knowingly targeted a mason when a townie could be hung, so either they didn't know Tolyk was a mason, scum believed Ford to be a mason (unlikely given he voted tolyk), or Ford is scum. Scum would have no reason to suspect the alignment of TolyK as TolyK only voted once, in the RVS, and they only just got heat in the last few days. So the scum either made a choice between two unknowns or Ford is scum. Basically we haven't learned anything that we can use for scum hunting.
We only know one thing for sure:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Leafsnail
How are we coming along getting replacements?
Everyone
We need to lynch to win this game. There is no two ways about it. In order to lynch we need a majority. A majority is damn hard to get when we have so many lurkers. Lurkers may lose us the game. Replacements don't seem to be coming along at any speed. Furthermore, given the lack of sudden deaths in the last week, scum can be deemed as likely as town to be lurkers. I say we get rid of arch-lurker Phantom unless a replacement is found soon. Does that sound reasonable?
Post by: Toaster on February 01, 2013, 09:50:53 pm
1. Whoever broke the tie had to be online between Leaf's two posts to send in the tiebreaker.
2. A suspicious eye should be cast toward the person who made the tie.
Captain Ford fits both those criteria. I'd ask you why you picked TolyK, but it's pretty obvious why you wouldn't want to lynch yourself.
Post by: Toaster on February 01, 2013, 09:58:42 pm
Dariush Hasn't been online since before tiebreaking.
Tiruin Hasn't been online since before tiebreaking.
Phantom of The Library Hasn't been online since before tiebreaking.
Captain Ford Posted in thread between tie form and break.
Edosurist Hasn't been online since before tiebreaking.
Deathsword Active since tiebreak.
notquitethere Posted in thread between tie form and break.
zombie urist Last active right before broken tie.
obolisk0430 Hasn't been online since before tiebreaking.
Removing those who haven't been online and therefore couldn't have sent the tiebreak:
Captain Ford Posted in thread between tie form and break.
Deathsword Active since tiebreak.
notquitethere Posted in thread between tie form and break.
zombie urist Last active right before broken tie.
Now ZU and Deathsword were online in time to break the tie, but weren't posting elsewhere. NQT and Ford were certainly around. It's hard to speculate on ZU and Deathsword, but at least one of these four is absolutely scum.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 01, 2013, 11:05:31 pm
EveryoneKilling off a lurker isn't going to improve our majority. It'll stay exactly the same.
We need to lynch to win this game. There is no two ways about it. In order to lynch we need a majority. A majority is damn hard to get when we have so many lurkers. Lurkers may lose us the game. Replacements don't seem to be coming along at any speed. Furthermore, given the lack of sudden deaths in the last week, scum can be deemed as likely as town to be lurkers. I say we get rid of arch-lurker Phantom unless a replacement is found soon. Does that sound reasonable?
"...given the lack of sudden deaths in the last week, scum can be deemed as likely as town to be lurkers." - How do you equate not using their daykill to not being active? Isn't it much more likely that after losing two of their number, they're much more hesitant to try it themselves? Especially considering they have no idea who their teammates tried to kill?
In my opinion, the ones with itchy-trigger fingers killed themselves off first, and the remaining two are still alive because they have more restraint. I don't expect we'll see much more doxxing unless somebody makes a big slip.
And Phantom isn't lurking. He's requested a replacement. Those are not the same thing. His inactivity is now solely due to not having a ready replacement, and not due to any fault on his part. Calling on everyone to lynch someone who won't fight back seems inexcusably lazy.
PPE: Toaster.
I was about to ask if using metainfo like that was frowned upon or not. It hadn't occurred to me that I was also online at the time (and thus would also be a suspect).
But yes, I can verify that ZU, notquitethere and myself were online at the time. Deathsword was not (at the time, his most recent visit was an hour before). I can also verify that you, Toaster, were not online at that time, and neither was anyone else.
I scanned the rules considering this possibility before the game began, and noticed that there's nothing that prevents the mafia from sending in the tie-breaking vote well in advance. It could have been sent yesterday. But I would need Leafsnail to verify that.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 01, 2013, 11:12:17 pm
But as long as the metainfo is in play, zombie urist was the closest to the lynch, and he's the only one who wasn't posting anywhere else.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 02, 2013, 12:37:19 am
Post by: zombie urist on February 02, 2013, 03:52:35 am
Post by: Dariush on February 02, 2013, 04:22:53 am
But as long as the metainfo is in play, zombie urist was the closest to the lynch, and he's the only one who wasn't posting anywhere else.The closest to the lynch how? By having zero votes, which is certainly more than your three, Ford?
The main reasons for this vote is that if Ford wasn't scum, scum would have basically zero reason to lynch Tolyk, since he could easily be lynched at any point due to his lurkatron. And that's in addition to all the other scummy shit he pulled off earlier.
EveryoneThis looks more like a lazy attempt to get out of scumhunting than... well, than anything else. Because that's exactly what is it, NQT. For someone who claims to be thinking of everything in logical terms, you sure missed a gaping hole in your theory that lynching lurkers merely erases the possibility of them getting replaced and stopping being lurkers.
We need to lynch to win this game. There is no two ways about it. In order to lynch we need a majority. A majority is damn hard to get when we have so many lurkers. Lurkers may lose us the game. Replacements don't seem to be coming along at any speed. Furthermore, given the lack of sudden deaths in the last week, scum can be deemed as likely as town to be lurkers. I say we get rid of arch-lurker Phantom unless a replacement is found soon. Does that sound reasonable?
Post by: TolyK on February 02, 2013, 04:53:25 am
Seriously. :P
But sorry for not going "need replacement"
Post by: Tiruin on February 02, 2013, 08:28:10 am
But as long as the metainfo is in play, zombie urist was the closest to the lynch, and he's the only one who wasn't posting anywhere else.Huh what.
Timezones, sir?
Now...this is really confusing. Why would you vote on ZU without any conclusive information - how is he scum? Ford
Query on lynching lurkers: @Dariush & NQT: What makes them different in this type of game? If you see someone lurking, in this situation with the players as such, to what feel of alignment do you think they are and how?EveryoneThis looks more like a lazy attempt to get out of scumhunting than... well, than anything else. Because that's exactly what is it, NQT. For someone who claims to be thinking of everything in logical terms, you sure missed a gaping hole in your theory that lynching lurkers merely erases the possibility of them getting replaced and stopping being lurkers.
We need to lynch to win this game. There is no two ways about it. In order to lynch we need a majority. A majority is damn hard to get when we have so many lurkers. Lurkers may lose us the game. Replacements don't seem to be coming along at any speed. Furthermore, given the lack of sudden deaths in the last week, scum can be deemed as likely as town to be lurkers. I say we get rid of arch-lurker Phantom unless a replacement is found soon. Does that sound reasonable?
Does lurking essentially mean scum? Why or why not?
Also, guess what? Scum are at a total disadvantage here. More later.
Post by: Teneb on February 02, 2013, 01:03:57 pm
Nice job ignoring me, will you ever read what I type and give me your reads on everyone already?
Ford:
I'd like to state first that this
was sincere, and not sarcasm. Even if you believe otherwise.Quote from: DeathswordIt was actually a good plan, I'll admit.
Now back to the game
EBWOP: The day technically ended yesterday. Considering Leafsnail rewound to that point in time, it's not unreasonable to think that the tie-breaking vote may already have been submitted by someone who was paying attention.Are you basing off your vote on ZU simply because he was active during the tiebreak? By that logic, you and NQT should be scummier, since you posted during the tie.
But as long as the metainfo is in play, zombie urist was the closest to the lynch, and he's the only one who wasn't posting anywhere else.
From a strategic point of view, it is much more profitable for scum to lynch an active player than a lurker, since it would remove a possible threat. As such, unless scum was really idiotic, Ford would be the best target for the tiebreak, not TolyK. The only reason scum would choose the lurker is if the other target was scum. Thusly, it can be quite easy to deduct one of the possible scum. Ford.
NQT:
Are you going to keep voting people up for replacement instead of scumhunting?
And then there's this:
Post-lynch AnalysisHow the fuck we do not have anything to use on scumhunting? Re-read your own post, more specifically the part I quoted, and tell me there isn't anything we can use to scumhunt.
Scum would probably not knowingly targeted a mason when a townie could be hung, so either they didn't know Tolyk was a mason, scum believed Ford to be a mason (unlikely given he voted tolyk), or Ford is scum. Scum would have no reason to suspect the alignment of TolyK as TolyK only voted once, in the RVS, and they only just got heat in the last few days. So the scum either made a choice between two unknowns or Ford is scum. Basically we haven't learned anything that we can use for scum hunting.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 02, 2013, 06:37:25 pm
Now...this is really confusing. Why would you vote on ZU without any conclusive information - how is he scum? Ford
The closest to the lynch how? By having zero votes, which is certainly more than your three, Ford?
Are you basing off your vote on ZU simply because he was active during the tiebreak? By that logic, you and NQT should be scummier, since you posted during the tie.Jesus christ. It's like none of you even read.
zombie urist Last active right before broken tie.His last activity was less than 2 minutes before Leafsnail posted the lynch result (Toaster can verify this). That's all the time Leafsnail would need to fill in Tolyk's name and color and hit post.
The next closest was notquitethere, and his last activity was 10 minutes before. I obviously can't report my own, since looking up my last activity is itself activity.
Obviously, there's no concrete evidence, but him being the closest to the lynch is my reason for voting him.
And I already mentioned why I don't necessarily think the information is reliable. If you really thought that was a lynch vote. Then, well ... I give up. You people are just too stupid for me, I guess.
Deathsword:
First of all, how the hell does posting make us scummier? Explain that.
From a strategic point of view, it is much more profitable for scum to lynch an active player than a lurker, since it would remove a possible threat. As such, unless scum was really idiotic, Ford would be the best target for the tiebreak, not TolyK. The only reason scum would choose the lurker is if the other target was scum. Thusly, it can be quite easy to deduct one of the possible scum. Ford.They might have killed Tolyk because they were more certain about my alignment than his. Or they may have thought they could easily push a lynch on me the next day, as you're now trying to do. Statistically, I am not any more likely to be scum than anyone else.
In any case, it's pure WIFOM, and you're a complete tool if you really believe what you just said.
You keep attacking me with shitty reasons and shitty logic. I'm pretty sure the only reason you want me dead is because I pissed you off, and apparently that means I'm worth killing even if you can't raise a decent case to save your life.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 02, 2013, 06:53:43 pm
The main reasons for this vote is that if Ford wasn't scum, scum would have basically zero reason to lynch Tolyk, since he could easily be lynched at any point due to his lurkatron.That's bullshit and you know it. Hell, you're proving it right now. Why lynch me then when you could just lynch me now? Two for the price of one!
Like I told Deathsword, if you believe that, you're a complete tool.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 02, 2013, 07:06:39 pm
The best reason for scum to pick Tolyk? It denies the town an informative lynch. It's why you still want to lynch me. You don't have any more information now than you did yesterday.
Deathsword: NQT was right about that. And you FOSed him for it. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Post by: zombie urist on February 02, 2013, 07:37:00 pm
Though if we're playing this way, I do think that NQT is scummier for his insistence on lynching inactives.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 02, 2013, 08:18:04 pm
...that's such a terrible way to play this game.And it's one of the issues that is normally solved by having a night phase. I realized before the game started that the tie breaker created this opportunity, so when it happened, I knew what to look for.
I didn't bring it up, but since it's being used against me, I'm certainly not going to ignore it. Objective evidence is a lot more powerful than a giant heap of "scumtells".
Post by: notquitethere on February 02, 2013, 08:38:39 pm
1. Whoever broke the tie had to be online between Leaf's two posts to send in the tiebreaker.I'm not convinced this meta-game way of playing is the way forward, after all, the scum could have called in the hit in advance at any point since the last day or so, or if leafsnail is correct and the deadline was a day earlier than some of us thought, then the scum could have conceivably done it then. But I like your ace detective skills and scumhunting moxy, and you may have something there on the tie-breaking, though obviously Ford has a strong incentive not to let himself hang. Though, in breaking the tie he gave power to the scum- which could be interpreted as weakly pro-scum, but maybe we shouldn't get carried away with this line of reasoning.
2. A suspicious eye should be cast toward the person who made the tie.
Ford
Killing off a lurker isn't going to improve our majority. It'll stay exactly the same.But killing off BOTH lurkers... ah, uh, I can see why people might think that over-zealous, but I've explained why it's a pro-town move. (Lurkers prevent lynches, lynching is the only way to win). That said, convincing anyone that getting rid of lurkers is a good idea (despite the fact that it objectively is) seems to be a non-starter as ideas go, so I'll continue hunting scum regardless.
Quote
"...given the lack of sudden deaths in the last week, scum can be deemed as likely as town to be lurkers." - How do you equate not using their daykill to not being active? Isn't it much more likely that after losing two of their number, they're much more hesitant to try it themselves? Especially considering they have no idea who their teammates tried to kill?You misinterpret what I wrote, though probably not intentionally. If people were dying regularly then we could rule out the possibility that the scum are lurkers; I didn't mean to suggest that the lack of activity on the behalf of the scum meant that they were more likely than not to be lurkers. If you read what I actually wrote, I merely said that the scum were just as likely as anyone else to be lurkers.
Quote
And Phantom isn't lurking. He's requested a replacement. Those are not the same thing. His inactivity is now solely due to not having a ready replacement, and not due to any fault on his part. Calling on everyone to lynch someone who won't fight back seems inexcusably lazy.It's functionally the same thing: these players aren't playing the game and are making it harder for the town to make effective lynches. Of course I'd much rather we had a replacement, but it's been over a week and there are now two players in need of a replacement and still nothing. If town don't lynch then we will lose.
Dariush
This looks more like a lazy attempt to get out of scumhunting than... well, than anything else. Because that's exactly what is it, NQT. For someone who claims to be thinking of everything in logical terms, you sure missed a gaping hole in your theory that lynching lurkers merely erases the possibility of them getting replaced and stopping being lurkers.That's true enough, but we've been in need of at least one replacement for over a week now. I'd much rather active replacements got in, but it's not looking like it's happening any time soon. But rest assured sweet Dariush, I will continue to actively hunt scum as well.
Tiruin
Query on lynching lurkers: @Dariush & NQT: What makes them different in this type of game? If you see someone lurking, in this situation with the players as such, to what feel of alignment do you think they are and how?Lurking doesn't mean they're scum. Any given scum is as likely as anyone else to be a lurker, but given that town outnumber scum by such a huge number, the likelihood of any given lurker being scum is slim. It's just numbers. I posited that we should get rid of the two non-players as it's easier to muster 5/6 active town against a threat than 6/6 active town.
Does lurking essentially mean scum? Why or why not?
Quote
Also, guess what? Scum are at a total disadvantage here. More later.You're absolutely correct. Is that a matter of lamentation?
DS
Are you going to keep voting people up for replacement instead of scumhunting?Well it was merely my opening post after the lynch went down, so give me time. I've explained clearly why it's in our best interests to get rid of lurkers and of course if these players are actually going to be replaced then I wouldn't vote for them off the bat, but I don't have faith that they are going to be replaced any time soon.
Quote
How the fuck we do not have anything to use on scumhunting? Re-read your own post, more specifically the part I quoted, and tell me there isn't anything we can use to scumhunt.I reread it. The conclusion was: either scum made a random pick OR Captain Ford is scum. Okay, admittedly there is a small piece of scumhunting information we can get from this. If we lynch Captain Ford and he's not scum then we'll know that scum made a random choice (or else they did it so that we'd lynch Ford). Are you suggesting we lynch Ford for an information lynch?
ZU
Speculating on why someone was NKed leads to WIFOM.I was merely suggesting a strategy that would best enable Team Town to win. It was a suggestion not an insistence. Can I have a counter argument? Or are you just saying this is a terrible way to play but I'm going to play this way, zombie urist?
Though if we're playing this way, I do think that NQT is scummier for his insistence on lynching inactives.
Obolisk
You're being awful quiet. What's your take on the death of poor TolyK?
Post by: zombie urist on February 02, 2013, 11:00:28 pm
Also, the best strategy to win is scumhunting. I don't see how lurkers stop lynches.
Post by: notquitethere on February 02, 2013, 11:46:26 pm
Yes but how does scum hunting help us win? When it leads to the successful lynching of scum. How can we lynch scum? By getting a majority against them. People who don't vote prevent us getting a majority against the scum. People who don't vote stop successful lynching of scum. Do you get it now?
We may seem secure in our absolute majority now but the scum will whittle us down even if it takes weeks to do it.
Post by: zombie urist on February 03, 2013, 12:39:50 am
Lurkers don't prevent us from getting a majority since they don't vote either way.
Post by: notquitethere on February 03, 2013, 06:04:58 am
Each week that scum can manipulate play into a draw is a week closer to town losing. Now do you get what I'm saying?
Post by: Tiruin on February 03, 2013, 07:48:02 am
Masons are Town.
Town are town.
Scum are scum.
The third paragraph has underpowered scum- they can't chat their way to freedom and have a Mason-kill. Anyone else and they forfeit their lives instead.
Town. These guys outnumber everyone, and even with the whole mason team dead, its like a BM of 5:2 when we come upon that matter. Granted, there are no NKs when it goes to that point so its a game of logic since then.
Masons. These guys know other town-aligned, but how do we convince town and scum that they're hinting correctly? That's one big problem I see.
Now, we have a whole week to settle a lynch or wait for a daykill. Chances are, mislynches are higher with the rate of suspicion going around.
Votecount please, Mod.
Yes but how does scum hunting help us win? When it leads to the successful lynching of scum. How can we lynch scum? By getting a majority against them. People who don't vote prevent us getting a majority against the scum. People who don't vote stop successful lynching of scum. Do you get it now?I detect a major error here.
Quote
Yes but how does scum hunting help us win?Yeah, scumhunting helps in all ways possible. It gives reads on other people, and also aids in their judgement. You're stating a favorable endpoint, but only reached when the facts (or at least the most probable ones), are cleared out by the process stated.
> When it leads to the successful lynching of scum.
Meaning: you're forgetting that scumhunting helps clear others of being scum. Did you forget that NQT?
Post by: zombie urist on February 03, 2013, 12:01:09 pm
Post by: obolisk0430 on February 03, 2013, 01:40:13 pm
QuoteTiruin, you've been fishing for people's alliances ever since the game began. Why? How does that help you? How does it help the town win?Let me await obolisk's statement before giving in a (somewhat) controversial post.
Yo Tiriun. I'm still waiting for this shit. Deathsword for the reasons I have stated earlier.
Post by: obolisk0430 on February 03, 2013, 01:45:38 pm
NQT: you asked how I see TolyK's death. I see it as the remaining mafia being a lot more careful.
DS: you asked what my feels are for everyone in the game. Right now, I think you and Tiruin are scum. Now that we have this:
NQT: There are two more things you forgot to mention as things to get from this lynch.I'm thinking if one of you isn't scum, it might be Captain Ford. Everyone else seems pretty null to me.
1. Whoever broke the tie had to be online between Leaf's two posts to send in the tiebreaker.
2. A suspicious eye should be cast toward the person who made the tie.
Captain Ford fits both those criteria. I'd ask you why you picked TolyK, but it's pretty obvious why you wouldn't want to lynch yourself.
Post by: notquitethere on February 03, 2013, 03:04:10 pm
I detect a major error here.I think you over-state how good people are at reading supposed tells. The only solid information we get is from lynching and seeing who gets voted for the lynch and, if scum are lynched, who the scum voted for. By all means we should ask questions, question motives and so on to give a lead on who we should probably lynch next, but the only concrete info comes from kills. By your same reasoning, if we should be in the business of clearing names and getting a read on people, how are meant to do that with non-participating players? I'm beginning to think your reluctance on this point is because you're on the same team as at least one of the lurkers.QuoteYes but how does scum hunting help us win?Yeah, scumhunting helps in all ways possible. It gives reads on other people, and also aids in their judgement. You're stating a favorable endpoint, but only reached when the facts (or at least the most probable ones), are cleared out by the process stated.
> When it leads to the successful lynching of scum.
Meaning: you're forgetting that scumhunting helps clear others of being scum. Did you forget that NQT?
ZU
we dont need all 6 to agree, just that most to agree. this only becomes a major issue near lylo pfpAll us active players at the moment have to agree on a target if we're to lynch before the deadline. There is the other kind of lynching: allowing the clock to run down to the end of the week and killing whichever sap has the most votes. There are two problems with this kind of lynching: first, as we saw with TolyK's death, it's easy for scum to manipulate their voting to wind up in a draw which gives the other players very little information; second, the longer the 'day' stretches on, the easier it is for players to get confused in a whirl of accusations and counter-accusations. Before Nerjin and Imiknorris self-destructed do we really think anyone would have suspected them over any of the other players?
Post by: zombie urist on February 03, 2013, 03:16:02 pm
2. Lots of accusations and counter accusaitions aren't necessarily a bad thing.
3. Nerjin and Imik weren't really suspected because they got killed before they made any substantial posts. If the day had gone on and they had made more posts, someone might have suspected them.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 03, 2013, 05:29:53 pm
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library: notquitethere (1)
Captain Ford: Toaster, Dariush, Deathsword (3)
Edosurist:
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: zombie urist (1)
zombie urist: Captain Ford (1)
Toaster:
obolisk0430:
Not voting: Tiruin, Edosurist, Phantom of the Library (3)
Post by: Teneb on February 03, 2013, 07:46:40 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 04, 2013, 03:54:17 am
Yo, OBOLISK. I prefer you not use expletives in waiting for shit you didn't ask for. Especially when your posting rate is as low as crap, capisce?QuoteTiruin, you've been fishing for people's alliances ever since the game began. Why? How does that help you? How does it help the town win?Let me await obolisk's statement before giving in a (somewhat) controversial post.
Yo Tiriun. I'm still waiting for this shit. Deathsword for the reasons I have stated earlier.
If you're just using expletives for the heck of it, don't even dare. Especially if you can't get my username right.
I just posted it, by the way. Up there. Like, here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4001172#msg4001172)
Did my mention of your name agitate you?
Mod: I was voting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3998485#msg3998485) for Ford. Ford, if it got reset.
NQT
Tiruin...Reluctance = siding with lurkers.I detect a major error here.I think you over-state how good people are at reading supposed tells. The only solid information we get is from lynching and seeing who gets voted for the lynch and, if scum are lynched, who the scum voted for. By all means we should ask questions, question motives and so on to give a lead on who we should probably lynch next, but the only concrete info comes from kills. By your same reasoning, if we should be in the business of clearing names and getting a read on people, how are meant to do that with non-participating players? I'm beginning to think your reluctance on this point is because you're on the same team as at least one of the lurkers.QuoteYes but how does scum hunting help us win?Yeah, scumhunting helps in all ways possible. It gives reads on other people, and also aids in their judgement. You're stating a favorable endpoint, but only reached when the facts (or at least the most probable ones), are cleared out by the process stated.
> When it leads to the successful lynching of scum.
Meaning: you're forgetting that scumhunting helps clear others of being scum. Did you forget that NQT?
Ew.
How am I even reluctant there? I'm just stating a common thought. If lurkers are scum, they're pretty bad and cowardly players - it is a tactic though, but one frowned on, especially here where lurking translates to utter laziness as scum have no quicktopic.
I poke you, NQT, for I see this tiny snippet here.
Quote
[...]but the only concrete info comes from kills.[...]Who else knows about kills but scum, hmm?
Post by: notquitethere on February 04, 2013, 12:19:01 pm
...Reluctance = siding with lurkers.To answer your counter-questions: no one here has accepted the logic of getting rid of the non-participating players. I was suggesting that some of that reluctance to accept my position on this might be because you (or, I suppose, any of the others) may be on the same team as a lurker. That doesn't mean you're scum (hence why I didn't even FOS you): it might just make you mason. But far be it for me to commit the cardinal sin of speculating on who may or may not be mason.
Ew.
How am I even reluctant there? I'm just stating a common thought. If lurkers are scum, they're pretty bad and cowardly players - it is a tactic though, but one frowned on, especially here where lurking translates to utter laziness as scum have no quicktopic.
Quote
I poke you, NQT, for I see this tiny snippet here.Reading your posts Tiruin is a bit like casting rune stones through an intense fog or drawing a tarot deck while peering through welding glasses or divining fate from bird intestines with hands in rubber gloves: I'm certain that there's meaning there, but it's a bugger to find.Quote[...]but the only concrete info comes from kills.[...]Who else knows about kills but scum, hmm?
There is only one really useful piece of information that we can read in this game: votes. But votes can be used deceptively. Scum and masons can vote for their team mates as a distancing technique. So the only really really useful piece of information that we have in the game is votes that lead (or could have expected to have lead) to a lynch. As there is only two scum left, we can safely rule out the possibility of them bussing each other. If we keep on lynching until we catch one of the scum, then analyse their voting patterns and the votes against them, then we'll have a good shot at winning this thing.
Post by: Teneb on February 04, 2013, 01:33:21 pm
There is only one really useful piece of information that we can read in this game: votes. But votes can be used deceptively. Scum and masons can vote for their team mates as a distancing technique. So the only really really useful piece of information that we have in the game is votes that lead (or could have expected to have lead) to a lynch. As there is only two scum left, we can safely rule out the possibility of them bussing each other. If we keep on lynching until we catch one of the scum, then analyse their voting patterns and the votes against them, then we'll have a good shot at winning this thing.The problem with such a logic is that there is the very real possibility of lynching only town/masons and missing both scum. While a lynch would give some valuable information, we can't lynch for the sake of lynching. That is where scumhunting goes in, it's where you determine who is the scummiest person around and lynch them, and then, with the knowledge of their alignment, examine their posts for any possible connections to other players.
Post by: Toaster on February 04, 2013, 02:06:43 pm
In addition, look at this:
Votes after this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3991775#msg3991775) did not count.
Not only did Ford make the tie, but he did it 30 minutes prior to the deadline. If that's not a scum move, I don't know what is. Minor FoS goes out to Zombie Urist for not breaking it.
The best reason for scum to pick Tolyk? It denies the town an informative lynch. It's why you still want to lynch me. You don't have any more information now than you did yesterday.
Freudian slip- he knows his lynch would be informative.
Tiruin:
But as long as the metainfo is in play, zombie urist was the closest to the lynch, and he's the only one who wasn't posting anywhere else.Huh what.
Timezones, sir?
Now...this is really confusing. Why would you vote on ZU without any conclusive information - how is he scum? Ford
This vote is lazy and weak.
Hey, what about we proclaim more activity by gambling eh?
What was the point of this post? I don't see one.
Deathsword:
From a strategic point of view, it is much more profitable for scum to lynch an active player than a lurker, since it would remove a possible threat. As such, unless scum was really idiotic, Ford would be the best target for the tiebreak, not TolyK. The only reason scum would choose the lurker is if the other target was scum. Thusly, it can be quite easy to deduct one of the possible scum. Ford.
While the "obvious" part of that line of thinking makes sense, it's still WIFOM.
NQT:
I'm not convinced this meta-game way of playing is the way forward, after all, the scum could have called in the hit in advance at any point since the last day or so, or if leafsnail is correct and the deadline was a day earlier than some of us thought, then the scum could have conceivably done it then. But I like your ace detective skills and scumhunting moxy, and you may have something there on the tie-breaking, though obviously Ford has a strong incentive not to let himself hang. Though, in breaking the tie he gave power to the scum- which could be interpreted as weakly pro-scum, but maybe we shouldn't get carried away with this line of reasoning.
If the scum can call it in advance, why even have the post I quoted above where he said any mafioso can break the tie?
Also, don't buddy me.
Zombie U:
Also, the best strategy to win is scumhunting. I don't see how lurkers stop lynches.
Maybe you should try it sometime.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 04, 2013, 04:48:47 pm
Concerning metagaming: I'm not afraid to look for a way to break the game (See: Politibastard) but the chance to look at the game this way hasn't ever come up before. I'm not going to pass up this opportunity when it comes up, but I'm also not going to advocate any form of chain lynching over it. That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit. If it's valid against me, then it's valid against everyone, especially after I flip town and the statements I made about it are proven reliable.
You brought it up, and now you're being wishy-washy about using it. Why? You've stated unequivocally that you think it's reliable. So why now are your advocating against using it? That's bullshit of the highest degree.
Like I knew that. The last reference I had (the votecount I linked) indicated we had one more day.Votes after this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3991775#msg3991775) did not count.Not only did Ford make the tie, but he did it 30 minutes prior to the deadline. If that's not a scum move, I don't know what is. Minor FoS goes out to Zombie Urist for not breaking it.
I would hope that lynching the most active player in the game would be more informative than lynching someone who never did anything.The best reason for scum to pick Tolyk? It denies the town an informative lynch. It's why you still want to lynch me. You don't have any more information now than you did yesterday.
Freudian slip- he knows his lynch would be informative.
You're seriously retarded if you think that was unintentional.
Post by: zombie urist on February 04, 2013, 04:59:06 pm
Yo,OBOLISK. I prefer you not use expletives in waiting for shit you didn't ask for. Especially when your posting rate is as low as crap, capisce?1. Thats such a trivial thing to get upset about.
If you're just using expletives for the heck of it, don't even dare. Especially if you can't get my username right.
I just posted it, by the way. Up there. Like, here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4001172#msg4001172)
Did my mention of your name agitate you?
...
Reluctance = siding with lurkers.
Ew.
How am I even reluctant there? I'm just stating a common thought. If lurkers are scum, they're pretty bad and cowardly players - it is a tactic though, but one frowned on, especially here where lurking translates to utter laziness as scum have no quicktopic.
...
Who else knows about kills but scum, hmm?
2. How did you imply "reluctance = siding with lurkers" from his posts?
3. Everyone knows about kills because they're announced in thread.
Post by: zombie urist on February 05, 2013, 12:01:39 am
Mod: please include the day end time in each votecount.
Post by: Tiruin on February 05, 2013, 04:24:43 am
1. Thats such a trivial thing to get upset about.Not upset. I was irritated at how my impression of obolisk changed right there.
On another note, it's a matter of personal ethics. Back here, the fact that it came out of nowhere sounded like I affected him by just stating his name. It also came from seeing obolisk's posts and seeing how he viewed mine.
Quote
2. How did you imply "reluctance = siding with lurkers" from his posts?@2:
3. Everyone knows about kills because they're announced in thread.
Quote
[...]I'm beginning to think your reluctance on this point is because you're on the same team as at least one of the lurkers.Like that.
And on the kills, I meant the targeting. What I got from what NQT said was the fact that he mentioned 'kills' in his wording and not anything else here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4002007#msg4002007)
Ford
Toaster:Woah, jumpy there.Concerning metagaming: I'm not afraid to look for a way to break the game (See: Politibastard) but the chance to look at the game this way hasn't ever come up before. I'm not going to pass up this opportunity when it comes up, but I'm also not going to advocate any form of chain lynching over it. That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit. If it's valid against me, then it's valid against everyone, especially after I flip town and the statements I made about it are proven reliable.
You brought it up, and now you're being wishy-washy about using it. Why? You've stated unequivocally that you think it's reliable. So why now are your advocating against using it? That's bullshit of the highest degree.
He didn't explicitly mention that it referred to you.
So you want to undermine his post by putting biased insults over it?I would hope that lynching the most active player in the game would be more informative than lynching someone who never did anything.The best reason for scum to pick Tolyk? It denies the town an informative lynch. It's why you still want to lynch me. You don't have any more information now than you did yesterday.
Freudian slip- he knows his lynch would be informative.
You're seriously retarded if you think that was unintentional.
Also, whats the difference of the lynch anyway? Are you getting information solely by the flips, or getting it from the information gained behind the flips and trying to connect it with who-is-with-who?
Also, why the jumpiness and hostility?
Post by: notquitethere on February 05, 2013, 07:37:08 am
So team town in on track to lynch Ford, possibly or possibly not with collusion from scum. Following my earlier argument that we should look at lynch votes, I did, and here's what my findings are on Ford:
Correct me if I've miscounted but he has the widest range of people that have voted for him and that he had voted for. This means he's least likely to be a mason (who we'd expect to have a narrower range of serious attackers and targets), most likely to be a normal townsperson and medium likely to be scum. That's my read. I don't want to bandwagon on someone that isn't more than 50% scummy in my eyes.
What's the theory on info-lynching: do people think it's ever a good idea? We're in such a majority here as town that we can afford up to five mislynches providing scum continue to be conservative with their powers. Someone had to die at the end of each week and it's always better that we decide rather than letting a draw give scum the pick. I argued earlier that getting rid of the non-participating players would be in our best interest as it would give us a clearer vote majority over the scum. However, lynching active players does give us more information. So what's the consensus on killing probable friends?
Post by: obolisk0430 on February 05, 2013, 10:27:59 am
@tiruin: Sorry about getting your name wrong, but i don't see how that post explains your logic behind town looking for masons. Town has no incentive to find them, so it's a waste of time. Beyond that, if we actually find the masons, we basically do the mafia's job for them.
Post by: Toaster on February 05, 2013, 12:24:36 pm
That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit.
Why don't you try reading my posts?
Captain Ford fits both those criteria.
That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.
In addition, look at this:Votes after this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3991775#msg3991775) did not count.
Not only did Ford make the tie, but he did it 30 minutes prior to the deadline. If that's not a scum move, I don't know what is. Minor FoS goes out to Zombie Urist for not breaking it.
I'm seeing you lynched because of multiple factors that I've already stated. I don't want to use online status as the sole factor in a lynch, but since you have so much going for you, you get my vote.
NQT:
Regarding Ford
So team town in on track to lynch Ford, possibly or possibly not with collusion from scum.
This feels scummy to me- it's vague and nonspecific, but it's like you're trying to be the cheerleader for Team Town. I don't know, but it bugs me.
Correct me if I've miscounted but he has the widest range of people that have voted for him and that he had voted for. This means he's least likely to be a mason (who we'd expect to have a narrower range of serious attackers and targets), most likely to be a normal townsperson and medium likely to be scum. That's my read. I don't want to bandwagon on someone that isn't more than 50% scummy in my eyes.
Are you putting equal weight to all votes? RVs should matter little, pressure votes some, and lynch votes a lot.
How scummy is Ford? Who is the highest percentage scummy person to you right now?
What's the theory on info-lynching: do people think it's ever a good idea? We're in such a majority here as town that we can afford up to five mislynches providing scum continue to be conservative with their powers. Someone had to die at the end of each week and it's always better that we decide rather than letting a draw give scum the pick. I argued earlier that getting rid of the non-participating players would be in our best interest as it would give us a clearer vote majority over the scum. However, lynching active players does give us more information. So what's the consensus on killing probable friends?
I'm going to break this into two questions.
Quote
What's the theory on info-lynching: do people think it's ever a good idea?
Sometimes. Given the lack of a nightkill, this game is a good candidate, as we're likely to see many more lynches than a comparable game this size. However, doing it willy-nilly is a terrible idea. I'd say rather than just do an "info lynch", in a situation like this when a obviously good candidate for lynch comes up, go for it. If the game gets closer to LYLO, though, go back to standard scum-hunting.
Quote
So what's the consensus on killing probable friends?
Why would you ever do this? If someone is likely town, why lynch them ever?
Tiruin: Missed a question in this post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4004266#msg4004266)
Hey, what about we proclaim more activity by gambling eh?
What was the point of this post? I don't see one.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 05, 2013, 01:38:41 pm
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library: notquitethere (1)
Captain Ford: Toaster, Dariush, Deathsword, Tiruin (4) <-- L-2
Edosurist:
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: zombie urist (1)
zombie urist: Captain Ford (1)
Toaster:
obolisk0430:
Not voting: Edosurist, Phantom of the Library (2)
Deadline: 12:52:14 am GMT on the 9th of February.
Post by: Dariush on February 05, 2013, 02:02:48 pm
That's true enough, but we've been in need of at least one replacement for over a week now. I'd much rather active replacements got in, but it's not looking like it's happening any time soon. But rest assured sweet Dariush, I will continue to actively hunt scum as well.You still haven't explained why you are continuing to vote for the guy in need of replacement, how it's supposed to help him get an active replacement, or what his lynch is going to accomplish, apart from have a 4/5 chance to get a dead townie, which is even less useful to the town than in normal games (because town doesn't get any useful info from a town death, while scum does).
Quote
This means he's least likely to be a mason (who we'd expect to have a narrower range of serious attackers and targets), most likely to be a normal townsperson and medium likely to be scum. That's my read. I don't want to bandwagon on someone that isn't more than 50% scummy in my eyes.The hell you are talking about, NQT? How is a mason supposed to somehow have a narrower range of targets (a pool of nine people (ignoring buses) isn't much narrower than a pool of 12 people on the game scale) and attackers (because it somehow assumes that whoever attacks a mason knows he's a mason)? Same question goes regarding scum possibility (even though it must be the same even following your insane twisted logic). The whole post looks like a desperate attempts to cover a scummate, in all.
Ford:
Er, what? The exactly same logic could be applied in reverse - from the scum point of view, why lynch you now if you could be lynched then, and Tolyk lynched now without any obstructions?The main reasons for this vote is that if Ford wasn't scum, scum would have basically zero reason to lynch Tolyk, since he could easily be lynched at any point due to his lurkatron.That's bullshit and you know it. Hell, you're proving it right now. Why lynch me then when you could just lynch me now? Two for the price of one!
Post by: Captain Ford on February 05, 2013, 04:16:35 pm
FordWoah, jumpy there.
-snip-
He didn't explicitly mention that it referred to you.
[/quote]
Umm...yes, he did:
That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.
Read his response to me. He is not at all ambiguous about this.
-snip-So you want to undermine his post by putting biased insults over it?
Also, whats the difference of the lynch anyway? Are you getting information solely by the flips, or getting it from the information gained behind the flips and trying to connect it with who-is-with-who?
Also, why the jumpiness and hostility?
1. Meh. I called it like I saw it.
2a. Activity is the difference. More interaction leaves more material to be analyzed.
2b. Of course I'm analyzing who voted whom and for what reasons.
3. The more I play this game, the more it's making me irritable. I think that "talking" with you has been the primary cause.
Toaster:
Ford:How does that change anything? You're still making a case that it's valid for me, and not for anyone else. And now you're just trying to obfuscate it.That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit.
Why don't you try reading my posts?Captain Ford fits both those criteria.
Me making the tie is a terrible argument considering the confusion over the deadline. Leafsnail made a mistake on one of the votecounts, and then didn't do anything for four days. I had no clue when the deadline was until I looked it up on Thursday, then I realized it was that day, and made a post urging someone to break the tie -- which is when Leafsnail revealed that it had ended a day earlier.
I didn't even realize there was a tie until the next day. And nobody else did either until I pointed it out 24 hours later. At which point, I called for somebody else to break the tie. It's really sad that you're pinning the responsibility on me when you timed your vote change the same way.
And no matter how hard I try, I just can't feel sorry for tying up my own lynch. What fucked up world do you live in where it's the responsibility of the lynchee to make sure he dies?
Dariush:
Ford:Let me rephrase that:Er, what? The exactly same logic could be applied in reverse - from the scum point of view, why lynch you now if you could be lynched then, and Tolyk lynched now without any obstructions?The main reasons for this vote is that if Ford wasn't scum, scum would have basically zero reason to lynch Tolyk, since he could easily be lynched at any point due to his lurkatron.That's bullshit and you know it. Hell, you're proving it right now. Why lynch me then when you could just lynch me now? Two for the price of one!
Offing Tolyk was the right choice, because there are two nutjobs who are obsessed with killing me, and who are getting away with having crappy or vague reasons for their case. Scum gets two townies, and this way there's no risk of Tolyk suddenly coming back from the grave and not being lynched.
I don't even know why you're voting me anymore. You've agreed with me on the main point we were arguing about and you haven't raised any new points at all. You just keep calling me scummy.
Post by: notquitethere on February 05, 2013, 05:12:57 pm
This feels scummy to me- it's vague and nonspecific, but it's like you're trying to be the cheerleader for Team Town. I don't know, but it bugs me.I'll try to bear that in mind. The vast majority of us are on the same team and so it makes sense (to me at least) to address fellow players as a team, while maintaining suspicious of any given member.
Quote
Are you putting equal weight to all votes? RVs should matter little, pressure votes some, and lynch votes a lot.What I've actually done is make a chart from reading the votes and FOS's from the Lurker tracker, marking up all the RVs. Then, when I look at each individual voter's pattern, I can look into the thread to see whether they were just pressure votes and so on.
How scummy is Ford? Who is the highest percentage scummy person to you right now?
Just from the numbers alone, given some assumptions about what each kind of team's voting would look like (and I might be wrong), I'd say Ford is low scummy. He's received eleven votes from five people. Assuming scum and masons will tend not to vote for their team mates, we can expect town members to receive votes from the widest range of people. His number of people that have voted against him are above the game average of 3.75. From this I'd say he's least likely to be mason and (given that scummy looking players may receive lots of votes) he's as likely town as scum, and as there's much more town than scum, he'd most likely town. That's just from the vote numbers though, and we'd obviously have to look at what people say before coming to a firmer judgement.
Unvote
I'm not sure who's the scummiest. I've got a few candidates:
obolisk0430. Only one person has ever voted against him (a sure sign of low activity) and he's only ever voted against one person. Best case, he's convinced Deathsword is scum and is focusing on him for the time being, and the low votes against hint that he could well be a mason, though his lack of cohesion in voting alongside other player's targets speaks slightly against that. Worst case, he's keeping a low profile with active-lurking and lack lustre scum-hunting.
Deathsword, and his (seemingly wilful) misunderstanding of my earlier posts and, more tellingly, his bandwagonning of both me in the last 'day', and now Captain Ford. Best case he's a dangerously mistaken townie, worst case he's a bandwagon-jumping mafioso.
Quote
If someone is likely town, why lynch them ever?Well that's my thought, but on numbers alone, any given person is more likely than not a friend and Ford (who's on track to be killed) is not much more scummy than many other players. The best that can be hoped for his death (bar the unlikely event of him flipping scum) is a possible read on the alignment of those targeting him.
Dariush
You still haven't explained why you are continuing to vote for the guy in need of replacement, how it's supposed to help him get an active replacement, or what his lynch is going to accomplish, apart from have a 4/5 chance to get a dead townie, which is even less useful to the town than in normal games (because town doesn't get any useful info from a town death, while scum does).Now it's overwhelmingly clear that no one else agrees that getting rid of non-participating players is in our best interests, I've focused back on the active players.
Quote
The hell you are talking about, NQT? How is a mason supposed to somehow have a narrower range of targets (a pool of nine people (ignoring buses) isn't much narrower than a pool of 12 people on the game scale) and attackers (because it somehow assumes that whoever attacks a mason knows he's a mason)?I'm saying exactly that: on average masons will have a narrower range of serious targets because they won't seriously target their mates. Likewise, they'll have less serious attackers because a good chunk of their potential attackers will be masons. It's not going to be a huge margin, but overall I'd think the effects noticeable.
Quote
Same question goes regarding scum possibility (even though it must be the same even following your insane twisted logic). The whole post looks like a desperate attempts to cover a scummate, in all.You're quite right, except that for most of the game so far there's been half as many scum as masons. I'm sorry that you think it looks like I'm protecting my scumbuddy Ford (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3964907;topicseen#msg3964907) but town members have the greatest incentive not to lynch players that they think are likely to be town as well.
Post by: zombie urist on February 05, 2013, 06:09:46 pm
From this I'd say he's least likely to be mason and (given that scummy looking players may receive lots of votes) he's as likely town as scum, and as there's much more town than scum, he'd most likely town.This is stupid, because since there are more town, everyone is more likely town. I don't see how the distribution of votes matter.
How "much" more scummy do you need to be to be worth lynching? Also, please provide a non-statistical reason why Ford is not scummy. Also, please stop using numbers in mafia. It doesn't work well.QuoteIf someone is likely town, why lynch them ever?Well that's my thought, but on numbers alone, any given person is more likely than not a friend and Ford (who's on track to be killed) is not much more scummy than many other players. The best that can be hoped for his death (bar the unlikely event of him flipping scum) is a possible read on the alignment of those targeting him.
1. Meh. To be frank, it seems like the other way around.1. Thats such a trivial thing to get upset about.Not upset. I was irritated at how my impression of obolisk changed right there.
On another note, it's a matter of personal ethics. Back here, the fact that it came out of nowhere sounded like I affected him by just stating his name. It also came from seeing obolisk's posts and seeing how he viewed mine.Quote2. How did you imply "reluctance = siding with lurkers" from his posts?@2:
3. Everyone knows about kills because they're announced in thread.Quote[...]I'm beginning to think your reluctance on this point is because you're on the same team as at least one of the lurkers.Like that.
And on the kills, I meant the targeting. What I got from what NQT said was the fact that he mentioned 'kills' in his wording and not anything else here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4002007#msg4002007)
2. Ok.
3. That makes no sense. NQT said "concrete info comes from kills", which is true. I don't know how you ever thought he implied targeting in any way.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 06, 2013, 06:53:12 am
Votecount (6 votes to lynch):
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Captain Ford: Toaster, Dariush, Deathsword, Tiruin (4) <-- L-2
Edosurist:
Deathsword: obolisk0430, notquitethere (2)
notquitethere: zombie urist (1)
zombie urist: Captain Ford (1)
Toaster:
obolisk0430:
Not voting: Edosurist,
Deadline: 12:52:14 am GMT on the 9th of February (about 2 and a half days away).
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 06, 2013, 11:43:49 am
Post by: Hapah on February 06, 2013, 01:08:41 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 06, 2013, 02:34:56 pm
Could I perhaps apply for this replacement?Sure. I'll send you the role PM.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 06, 2013, 02:37:04 pm
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 06, 2013, 03:26:11 pm
Lets get on with some random personality quiz-interrogations.
Captain Ford-There have been many discussions that I won't repost.But yes.I think you should meet the noose.
Heres a good question for you.Do you like vanilla or chocolate icecream more?
Toaster-Hmm.Let's see.
Shoot one,stab one,burn one:NQT,Deathsword,Dariush
Tiruin-Would you rather be a stonecrafter or a peasant?
Post by: zombie urist on February 06, 2013, 03:39:52 pm
Also, those questions suck.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 06, 2013, 03:42:56 pm
You do realize that you've put Ford at L-1 right?Don't worry!
Also, those questions suck.
I went to a psychology lesson once.I think.
Maybe.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 06, 2013, 04:16:45 pm
Captain Ford-There have been many discussions that I won't repost.But yes.I think you should meet the noose.Vanilla.
Heres a good question for you.Do you like vanilla or chocolate icecream more?
Which flavor do you prefer?
Post by: zombie urist on February 06, 2013, 04:33:54 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 06, 2013, 05:11:24 pm
Righty righty.In addition to that, could you also provide a behind the scenes ideology on why the specific choices?
Lets get on with some random personality quiz-interrogations.
Captain Ford-There have been many discussions that I won't repost.But yes.I think you should meet the noose.
Heres a good question for you.Do you like vanilla or chocolate icecream more?
Toaster-Hmm.Let's see.
Shoot one,stab one,burn one:NQT,Deathsword,Dariush
Tiruin-Would you rather be a stonecrafter or a peasant?
I'd rather be a peasant, because I'd be tilling the soil and able to do multiple and various jobs. Unspecified, of course, but at least I'd be able to be a generalist - able to expand my potential and still able to keep an open ended view of my labors and other stuff related to being the stereotypical peasant I am.
How does this help you with anything, and why would you FoS me for such?
PFP
Post by: zombie urist on February 06, 2013, 05:20:49 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 06, 2013, 05:37:30 pm
Person says psychology is in the matter > states two kinds of labor along with an FoS.
Me either wondering whether obvious allusion, or something else entirely. (Though, picking stonecrafter means that I already have a labor that I could earn my keep with, including still branching out from my current profession. Still, carving rock pots or doing marble statues isn't my kind of aesthetics. I'm mostly into graphite or digital art, when speaking about what stonecrafters are thought of doing.)
Post by: notquitethere on February 06, 2013, 05:47:34 pm
This is stupid, because since there are more town, everyone is more likely town. I don't see how the distribution of votes matter.I think it's possible you missed the finer point of my argument. I was saying that Ford is almost certainly not a mason, and so this leaves him as either town or scum, town being the likely option. I won't speculate openly about it, but from the voting patterns I'm pretty sure I've identified at least one mason. I'm positive distribution of votes matter, and from them it's pretty obvious Ford is town. If/when he gets lynched then I'll be proved right or wrong on the matter- I know I could well lynch him with a vote now but I won't because I'm certain you're all about to lynch an innocent man.
Quote
How "much" more scummy do you need to be to be worth lynching? Also, please provide a non-statistical reason why Ford is not scummy. Also, please stop using numbers in mafia. It doesn't work well.I'm positive vote numbers are the way forward, not the stuff people make up in the thread. You can lie more easily in words than in lynch votes. I've yet to hear you give a compelling counterargument to why we should be looking at other things, or for that matter, what is supposedly so scummy about Ford. But you want a non-vote related reason? Well, he was vociferous in calling out Deathsword on his shenanigans in the early game. Letting misunderstanding flourish among town is presumably a scum-trait, and he did the exact opposite, seeking to bring clarity to the debate.
Hapah, glad to have you as a replacement. Ignore my vote against your predecessor Phantom, it no longer applies now the position is held by an active player. Do you think Phantom's vote against Edosurist was well placed?
TheZoomZoll, welcome to the game! Do you think Edosurist's previous votes were all well-placed? i.e. do you find Phantom (now Hapah) and myself to be more suspicious than average?
Post by: Hapah on February 06, 2013, 06:05:21 pm
NQT: I'll have to see. I haven't been following this game very closely, which means I've got a lot of reading and note-taking to do!
Post by: zombie urist on February 06, 2013, 06:09:49 pm
However, I find it interesting that you say "vote numbers are the way forward", but your reasons for voting DS are totally non-vote-related.
Post by: notquitethere on February 06, 2013, 06:14:57 pm
Post by: Teneb on February 06, 2013, 06:56:35 pm
ZU, I'm voting DS for bandwagonning twice, how much more vote related could you get? (I can understand how it might have been unclear, so you can treat that as rhetorical question if you like.)
Tell me, how is placing the first vote on a person (ford in this case) bandwaggoning?
ZUFor the entirety of this game you keep insisting Ford is town. How can you know? And don't bring "oh it's because I played with him before and meta" because that can be faked.This is stupid, because since there are more town, everyone is more likely town. I don't see how the distribution of votes matter.I think it's possible you missed the finer point of my argument. I was saying that Ford is almost certainly not a mason, and so this leaves him as either town or scum, town being the likely option. I won't speculate openly about it, but from the voting patterns I'm pretty sure I've identified at least one mason. I'm positive distribution of votes matter, and from them it's pretty obvious Ford is town. If/when he gets lynched then I'll be proved right or wrong on the matter- I know I could well lynch him with a vote now but I won't because I'm certain you're all about to lynch an innocent man.
And my vote on you back in the start was because you were buddying up to me. Not with that sarcastic quip you made to Tiruin (and that everyone thinks I was talking about), but the softball question you threw at me, the same question that cause Tiruin to call you on buddying and you to answer with sarcasm. I accused you of buddying, to which you flipped out. I found that to be scummy, so I kept my vote on you and kept pressing. I actually scumhunted on you. Is that bandwaggoning? No, it's not. I was driving a lynch on you because I thought, and now I think again, that you are scum.
Not only that but you and Ford keep defending each other. That is how he caught my attention in the first place.
Ford:
Toaster:The part I highlighted is a scummy move. Repeatedly claiming you are going to flip town and passively-agressively saying that people will regret lynching you is done only by scum and newbies, and I don't consider you to be a newbie.Concerning metagaming: I'm not afraid to look for a way to break the game (See: Politibastard) but the chance to look at the game this way hasn't ever come up before. I'm not going to pass up this opportunity when it comes up, but I'm also not going to advocate any form of chain lynching over it. That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit. If it's valid against me, then it's valid against everyone, especially after I flip town and the statements I made about it are proven reliable.
This is off-topic, but try to avoid calling people retards. Especially more than once and in multiple posts. Let's keep this mostly friendly, or at least keep insults to a minimum when not raging.
Post by: notquitethere on February 06, 2013, 08:02:38 pm
Okay, you're right DS. You weren't bandwaggoning in the Ford case. My suspicion bar for you just dropped five points. At the start I was pretty sure he wasn't scum because the reasons people had called him didn't hold up. Now I think he's most likely town because so many more people have voted for him (ruling him out as a likely mason) and as (in my eyes) he's either scum or town and he isn't coming across as particularly scummy, I think he's most likely town. But we will soon see.
My face when I'm wrong:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Hapah on February 06, 2013, 08:58:29 pm
NQT: In post 220 you asked PotL's replacement (me) to answer a question on P13. Can you post the question, or even just the post #, if it's still relevant? I've got enough reading to do as-is, lol.
Post by: notquitethere on February 06, 2013, 09:17:41 pm
PhantomGiven that you're reading the thread I think we can all expect some general thoughts from you when you're done. :D
We haven't heard from you since Norris' death. What are you thinking? I know the game can be pretty fast paced at times but lurking or appearing to lurk doesn't do you any favours.
Post by: Hapah on February 06, 2013, 09:23:04 pm
And if one of you guys could be kind enough to remove your Ford vote until I've had a chance to post, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to weigh in on the subject and L-1 makes me nervous as shit.
Post by: Hapah on February 06, 2013, 10:36:12 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on February 06, 2013, 11:29:16 pm
Ford:Ha ha ha! That's funny because I never said that. In fact, I was arguing the opposite, that lynching me would have positive side-effects that Toaster was simply going to ignore.Toaster:The part I highlighted is a scummy move. Repeatedly claiming you are going to flip town and passively-agressively saying that people will regret lynching you is done only by scum and newbies, and I don't consider you to be a newbie.Concerning metagaming: I'm not afraid to look for a way to break the game (See: Politibastard) but the chance to look at the game this way hasn't ever come up before. I'm not going to pass up this opportunity when it comes up, but I'm also not going to advocate any form of chain lynching over it. That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit. If it's valid against me, then it's valid against everyone, especially after I flip town and the statements I made about it are proven reliable.
At this point, I don't really think that anything is going to stop me from being lynched. I just want to make sure that my lynch is as productive as possible.
Quote from: Deathsword
This is off-topic, but try to avoid calling people retards. Especially more than once and in multiple posts. Let's keep this mostly friendly, or at least keep insults to a minimum when not raging.Point taken. I will try to tone it down.
For the record though, I never called Toaster retarted, only his argument. I also said, "you're retarted, if", which was meant to imply that the condition was false, because he's not retarted.
Post by: Hapah on February 06, 2013, 11:56:02 pm
So much to cover...guess we'll start with the big ones!
Spoiler: About Captain Ford (click to show/hide)
Toaster
Concerning metagaming: I'm not afraid to look for a way to break the game (See: Politibastard) but the chance to look at the game this way hasn't ever come up before. I'm not going to pass up this opportunity when it comes up, but I'm also not going to advocate any form of chain lynching over it. -snip-It doesn't look like you're looking too hard, from where I'm standing.
Leafsnail: Would you accept a tiebreaker vote from a different forum account, provided they could prove that they were on the scum team?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Leaf suggested this course of action to the scum (assuming he allows it, that is). He's no slouch.
Not only did Ford make the tie, but he did it 30 minutes prior to the deadline. If that's not a scum move, I don't know what is. Minor FoS goes out to Zombie Urist for not breaking it.Even if he did tie up the vote on purpose (which is open to debate, considering the slack deadline with resulting rewind), what's wrong with that? If it had been someone else tying the vote I could see where you are coming from, but someone casting a vote so that they maybe don't die doesn't seem like a bad thing.
Also, any reason you didn't pull your vote?
NQT: I noted this on my readthrough. Lurkers prevent hammers, but they don't prevent lynches. There's a very large difference between the two. Long days have their pros and cons, though, I'll give you that much.
DS: Do you still hold that Ford must be scum? I for one think that he's one of the flavors of town, and that lynching Tolyk over Ford was a great move: look at how much attention he got at the start of D2. The resulting shitstorm seems to have taken up most of the day.
Zoom: Welcome! Mind explaining what you hope to gain from those questions? Also, have you played a game of forum Mafia before?
Dar:
He meant closest post, I believe. Why didn't you see that?But as long as the metainfo is in play, zombie urist was the closest to the lynch, and he's the only one who wasn't posting anywhere else.The closest to the lynch how? By having zero votes, which is certainly more than your three, Ford?
The main reasons for this vote is that if Ford wasn't scum, scum would have basically zero reason to lynch Tolyk, since he could easily be lynched at any point due to his lurkatron. And that's in addition to all the other scummy shit he pulled off earlier.Do you stand by this?
I have to step away for a minute, so I guess I'll just go ahead and post this.
Everybody Else: Weigh in. What's on your mind?
Post by: zombie urist on February 07, 2013, 01:00:28 am
PS: All the cool mafia players use the 50 post/page setting. :P
Post by: Leafsnail on February 07, 2013, 07:29:35 am
Leafsnail: Would you accept a tiebreaker vote from a different forum account, provided they could prove that they were on the scum team?Yeah, but considering you can just hide your online status I don't really see the point.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 07, 2013, 07:42:25 am
Zoom: Welcome! Mind explaining what you hope to gain from those questions? Also, have you played a game of forum Mafia before?Thanks!
The questions are just the warm-ups to know the people better.And maybe inducing them in a confusion state.I have no idea.
I did play 2-3 games of mafia on another forum.I remember one mafia game that we won by doing nothing as the Mafia and just seeing the town accuse other town.
I'd have to say Vanilla too.Maybe fruit icecream could second that.Captain Ford-There have been many discussions that I won't repost.But yes.I think you should meet the noose.Vanilla.
Heres a good question for you.Do you like vanilla or chocolate icecream more?
Which flavor do you prefer?
TheZoomZoll, welcome to the game! Do you think Edosurist's previous votes were all well-placed? i.e. do you find Phantom (now Hapah) and myself to be more suspicious than average?
Quote from: TheZoomZoll
Thanks!I can't judge the votes so far so I will say yes.
As for the suspicious part....I am not quite sure about it yet.
How does this help you with anything, and why would you FoS me for such?Just getting to know you better.As a person,that is.
Or maybe I am trying to confuse you by asking random questions?
Hmmmm...
Post by: Teneb on February 07, 2013, 10:25:33 am
Zoom: Welcome! Mind explaining what you hope to gain from those questions? Also, have you played a game of forum Mafia before?Thanks!
The questions are just the warm-ups to know the people better.And maybe inducing them in a confusion state.I have no idea.
I did play 2-3 games of mafia on another forum.I remember one mafia game that we won by doing nothing as the Mafia and just seeing the town accuse other town.How does this help you with anything, and why would you FoS me for such?Just getting to know you better.As a person,that is.
Or maybe I am trying to confuse you by asking random questions?
Hmmmm...
Why would you want to cause confusion and WIFOM? Are you trying to confuse the mason in order for one of them slip so you can go for the kill? Are you scum?
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 07, 2013, 10:48:36 am
Why would you want to cause confusion and WIFOM? Are you trying to confuse the mason in order for one of them slip so you can go for the kill? Are you scum?I don't even know who the mason is.
What if there are more than 1 masons?
Why are you suggesting there is only 1?Are you the terrorist?Do you know something?
Post by: Teneb on February 07, 2013, 10:55:21 am
Either way, you decided to answer my question with more WIFOM-y shit. Way to go.
Tell me, why shouldn't we lynch you for being useless to the game, TheZoomZoll?
Post by: Hapah on February 07, 2013, 11:00:55 am
DS: You've got a question below (and I vaguely recall you wanting to be addressed in some particular way. Is DS alright?)
Zoom and DS: Focus, please. There's not much time before the lynch.
Leaf: Thank you! Shows what I know, lol.
I guess we've got something like 12 hours left?
Post by: Teneb on February 07, 2013, 11:10:23 am
DS: You've got a question below (and I vaguely recall you wanting to be addressed in some particular way. Is DS alright?)Assuming this:
DS: Do you still hold that Ford must be scum? I for one think that he's one of the flavors of town, and that lynching Tolyk over Ford was a great move: look at how much attention he got at the start of D2. The resulting shitstorm seems to have taken up most of the day.is what you are referring to, the answer to that would be yes, I still think him to be scum. He chainsawed to defend NQT and repeatedly stated he believes NQT to be town, despite little to no interaction with him. I find that to be quite suspicious, as is NQT's defence of him.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 07, 2013, 11:10:51 am
Tell me, why shouldn't we lynch you for being useless to the game, TheZoomZoll?Do go ahead if you want.
Maybe you just found an excuse to lynch somebody as a mafia?
Zoom: Read the OP for rules (oh god please tell me you've read the OP and at least part of the thread).I have read the rules and have made some research on the Mafia on general just to see if anything changed from what I knew.
Zoom and DS: Focus, please. There's not much time before the lynch.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
But if we don't lynch somebody the game will go on for an infinite amount of time.
Hence no night time and all.And that wouldn't be fun.
Did I get the wrong category though?
I think I pressed on Forum Games and then Mafia not: STARCRAFT21337ELITEGAMESSUPERMLGLEAGUEFORETERNALSUPREMEAMAZINGSTUFFNOFUNINTENDEDPLAYATOWNRISKMAYSEVERYOURRELATIONSWITHPEOPLEPLAYING
Post by: Hapah on February 07, 2013, 11:23:35 am
-snip-
I don't even know who the mason is.
What if there are more than 1 masons?
Why are you suggesting there is only 1?Are you the terrorist?Do you know something?
Quote from: The OP
This game is a 13 player open setup: Masons and Mafia.
The roles in this game are as follows.
4 mafia members
4 masons
5 townies
The OP says there are definitely 4 Masons (3 now, one died)
And yes, we have to lynch. But I think that the current lynch candidate (Captain Ford) is probably not scum. I laid out my thoughts, and I would like to hear yours. And considering the lynch is in about eight hours (I think?), I'm asking you to focus.
Post by: Hapah on February 07, 2013, 11:35:16 am
Wait, we've got another day, I think. My bad.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 07, 2013, 12:15:14 pm
Post by: zombie urist on February 07, 2013, 12:21:40 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 07, 2013, 12:29:22 pm
Toaster:Ford:How does that change anything? You're still making a case that it's valid for me, and not for anyone else. And now you're just trying to obfuscate it.That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit.
Why don't you try reading my posts?Captain Ford fits both those criteria.
Me making the tie is a terrible argument considering the confusion over the deadline. Leafsnail made a mistake on one of the votecounts, and then didn't do anything for four days. I had no clue when the deadline was until I looked it up on Thursday, then I realized it was that day, and made a post urging someone to break the tie -- which is when Leafsnail revealed that it had ended a day earlier.
I didn't even realize there was a tie until the next day. And nobody else did either until I pointed it out 24 hours later. At which point, I called for somebody else to break the tie. It's really sad that you're pinning the responsibility on me when you timed your vote change the same way.
And no matter how hard I try, I just can't feel sorry for tying up my own lynch. What fucked up world do you live in where it's the responsibility of the lynchee to make sure he dies?
All we have to go on the deadline factor is your word on it, something I am far from willing to take at this point. You getting all hot and bothered by my case on you when you're plenty calm otherwise is another point not in your favor.
NQT:
Just from the numbers alone, given some assumptions about what each kind of team's voting would look like (and I might be wrong), I'd say Ford is low scummy. He's received eleven votes from five people. Assuming scum and masons will tend not to vote for their team mates, we can expect town members to receive votes from the widest range of people. His number of people that have voted against him are above the game average of 3.75. From this I'd say he's least likely to be mason and (given that scummy looking players may receive lots of votes) he's as likely town as scum, and as there's much more town than scum, he'd most likely town. That's just from the vote numbers though, and we'd obviously have to look at what people say before coming to a firmer judgement.
This is actually a fairly novel idea in looking at vote records, but I'm not convinced of its validity. I'd really have to see the numbers at game end to see if they bear out.
Unvote
I'm not sure who's the scummiest. I've got a few candidates:
obolisk0430
Deathsword
If you're not sure, how did you choose which one to vote as opposed to FoS?
QuoteIf someone is likely town, why lynch them ever?Well that's my thought, but on numbers alone, any given person is more likely than not a friend and Ford (who's on track to be killed) is not much more scummy than many other players. The best that can be hoped for his death (bar the unlikely event of him flipping scum) is a possible read on the alignment of those targeting him.
And this is why you can't play on numbers alone.
I'm positive vote numbers are the way forward, not the stuff people make up in the thread. You can lie more easily in words than in lynch votes.
Problem is you discount busses and distancing attempts. I've seen some pretty glorious distancing in past games.
TheZoomZoll:
Toaster-Hmm.Let's see.
Shoot one,stab one,burn one:NQT,Deathsword,Dariush
Perhaps you should consider what the traditional use of the blue text actually is? In any case, between NQT and Deathsword it doesn't matter, but certainly burn Dariush, because we want to be sure.
Deathsword:
For the entirety of this game you keep insisting Ford is town. How can you know? And don't bring "oh it's because I played with him before and meta" because that can be faked.
Are you reading his posts? He's said his argument on Ford's towniness several times, and I think it's pretty clear.
ToasterNot only did Ford make the tie, but he did it 30 minutes prior to the deadline. If that's not a scum move, I don't know what is. Minor FoS goes out to Zombie Urist for not breaking it.Even if he did tie up the vote on purpose (which is open to debate, considering the slack deadline with resulting rewind), what's wrong with that? If it had been someone else tying the vote I could see where you are coming from, but someone casting a vote so that they maybe don't die doesn't seem like a bad thing.
Also, any reason you didn't pull your vote?
Hm. I suppose that does make sense, though I'm not willing to unvote him just yet.
And I didn't pull my vote because I didn't post between his tiemaker vote and day end.
Post by: Hapah on February 07, 2013, 12:44:30 pm
Toaster: Apologies for being unclear. I mean why didn't you back off your Ford vote when I asked for someone to pull their vote, since we were (and still are) at L-1. You got singled out because you were the only one of the five online and posting at the time (that I saw, anyway).
Also, could you lay out your major points against Ford again?
(P.S. what Planetside 2 server/faction are you?)
Post by: Tiruin on February 07, 2013, 12:51:54 pm
Owe this a post.
Mind fuzzy.
After midterms.
Argh.
Unvote
@Zoom: Forgot to say, welcome to Bay12 Mafia!
@Hapah: Welcome back! :P
Current reads as of probably a few pages (~3) back on normal forum format:
Dariush - null
Captain Ford - null
zombie urist - leaning town
Toaster - null
obolisk0430 - null
Status:
3 Mason
5 Town
2 Mafia
Note: Null - probably scummy or not. Can't think at the moment when. Don't bother asking me to explain it, I will when I get the chance.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 07, 2013, 01:14:24 pm
TheZoomZoll:Blue was suspicion or some exact term.Can't remember it on spot.
Perhaps you should consider what the traditional use of the blue text actually is? In any case, between NQT and Deathsword it doesn't matter, but certainly burn Dariush, because we want to be sure.
ZoomZoll: please outline your reasons for thinking Ford is scummy.Right time to do some digging and quoting..
Captain Ford fits both those criteria. I'd ask you why you picked TolyK, but it's pretty obvious why you wouldn't want to lynch yourself.
From a strategic point of view, it is much more profitable for scum to lynch an active player than a lurker, since it would remove a possible threat. As such, unless scum was really idiotic, Ford would be the best target for the tiebreak, not TolyK. The only reason scum would choose the lurker is if the other target was scum. Thusly, it can be quite easy to deduct one of the possible scum. Ford.Post-lynch Analysis
Scum would probably not knowingly targeted a mason when a townie could be hung, so either they didn't know Tolyk was a mason, scum believed Ford to be a mason (unlikely given he voted tolyk), or Ford is scum. Scum would have no reason to suspect the alignment of TolyK as TolyK only voted once, in the RVS, and they only just got heat in the last few days. So the scum either made a choice between two unknowns or Ford is scum. Basically we haven't learned anything that we can use for scum hunting.
Ford:There is still more but you get the point.Dariush:Nope, you didn't. The best thing you did was give a pointlessly elaborate and obvious explanation of who must prefer to be seen as who by whom and that was it. There is no positive to town reason to claim mason.You haven't explained why you've done it.I have explained quite thoroughly WHY I did it. You clearly don't understand my explanation and don't want to. There is really nothing I can do about that.QuoteTherefore, you knowingly did something that has the possibility to hurt town without any benefit to it whatsoever.Not true. Explaining my position and outlook helps town to make a better judgment about me. Also, the argument about avoiding paying attention to claims is worthwhile information that could benefit the town, since it isn't necessarily obvious.
Ford has been acting suspicious as of late.
Post by: Hapah on February 07, 2013, 01:20:15 pm
Edits are a big no-no.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 07, 2013, 01:25:51 pm
PFP
Edits are a big no-no.
Forgot to add a /quote and it made my text quoted for some reason.
Post by: Hapah on February 07, 2013, 01:28:37 pm
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 07, 2013, 01:42:04 pm
Edits are a big no-no for any reason. Just copy/paste it into a new post and make corrections that way if you messed something up.
That seems unnecessary and will make more posts than necessary.
Post by: TolyK on February 07, 2013, 01:52:18 pm
Post by: Hapah on February 07, 2013, 01:54:15 pm
(And you could try to start a discussion about the rule after the game, if you were so inclined)
PPE: Yeah that's more or less the reason.
Post by: zombie urist on February 07, 2013, 02:28:58 pm
There is still more but you get the point.This doesn't help at all. Anyone can quote posts and say he's been acting suspiciously. Why is he suspicious?
Ford has been acting suspicious as of late.
More importantly, why didn't you answer this question the first time around?
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 07, 2013, 02:46:46 pm
This doesn't help at all. Anyone can quote posts and say he's been acting suspiciously. Why is he suspicious?The ToLyK part seems awfully fishy,the fact hes out for lurkers,people who don't post much and he is trying too much to make us believe he is not mafia but tries to open a window to eliminate other people from the game whenever he gets the chance.
More importantly, why didn't you answer this question the first time around?
What do you mean the first time around?
Post by: Toaster on February 07, 2013, 04:20:46 pm
Toaster: Apologies for being unclear. I mean why didn't you back off your Ford vote when I asked for someone to pull their vote, since we were (and still are) at L-1. You got singled out because you were the only one of the five online and posting at the time (that I saw, anyway).
Also, could you lay out your major points against Ford again?
(P.S. what Planetside 2 server/faction are you?)
Oh. Because I had zero issue seeing him hang and didn't care to remove my vote. I considered it, though, since I'd be totally okay with hammering him if it came down to it.
1: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3997598#msg3997598) He was online during the kill send in.
2: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4004266#msg4004266) He made the tie 30 minutes before deadline.
3: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4011966#msg4011966) He's breaking his calm character and becoming belligerent at my case.
I accept that 2 is weaker considering that he was the lynch leader, but I don't have a better case.
I'll look at it again tonight, but I don't have the time to study things now.
TheZoomZoll: Multiple posts are acceptable practice here as opposed to edits.
Spoiler: Planetside 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Captain Ford on February 07, 2013, 11:22:05 pm
All we have to go on the deadline factor is your word on it, something I am far from willing to take at this point.Not true. There is at least one piece of objective evidence: Leafsnail's error in the votecount. He also didn't make any new votecounts close to deadline. You want to blame somebody for this? Blame the mod.
I also posted asking for someone to break the tie -- a day late. Sure, you can argue that it was faked, but the fact is that it's there. I said it long before anyone accused me of tying it up at the deadline. Either I was really planning ahead, or I seriously believed that I had one more day. Either way, I was behaving like it.
So no, you don't have just my word on it. You have what I said before you made an accusation, and you have the smoking gun -- Leafsnail's error -- in broad daylight. Don't tell me it's just my word.
You getting all hot and bothered by my case on you when you're plenty calm otherwise is another point not in your favor.Hahahaha! Me, calm. Yeah, that's a good one.
Dariush is rubbing off on me more than I'd like. It's actually a lot of fun to use language like a bludgeon on things I find stupid.
Not much more time right now. Unvoting since I haven't done anything further with my vote.
Post by: Hapah on February 08, 2013, 01:32:49 am
Who's ready for Hapah's Wall-O-Text? I hope you are!
Leafsnail: Votecount, please (and time to day end since I'm bad at timezones apparently)
No activity tonight? Sad Hapah is sad.
Toaster: There appear to be some issues with your arguments for Ford's lynch.
1: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3997598#msg3997598) He was online during the kill send in.It has been confirmed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4011499#msg4011499) that not only could someone hide their online status and submit the vote, they could even do it from a completely different account if they so desired. Your first point isn't nearly as damning as it looks at first glance. Anyone could have sent the vote, couldn't they?
2: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4004266#msg4004266) He made the tie 30 minutes before deadline.Someone voting to maybe save their own hide isn't really scummy, is it? You agreed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4012586#msg4012586) that this point is weak yourself in the same post that you laid it out.
3: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4011966#msg4011966) He's breaking his calm character and becoming belligerent at my case.Sure he is. I mean, you're basically meta-ing him to death. How can you reasonably defend yourself from "you were online, therefore you are probably scum"? There's no clear way to fight back when you lined it up like that, especially if you are relatively new as he is.
There's also the fact that you were the first one to really lean on Ford (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3997598#msg3997598). You said these two lines right after the day opened:
-snip-
1. Whoever broke the tie had to be online between Leaf's two posts to send in the tiebreaker.
-snip-
-snip-You pushed that idea hard and fast. You've also suggested that you aren't afraid to use meta to break the game should the opportunity arise (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4004266#msg4004266), but you're not looking very hard. Hell, I got the right idea (though maybe/probably the wrong implementation) before I had finished reading the page. I know you are clever enough to have cast the tiebreaker yourself and then push the idea that it couldn't have been you.
Removing those who haven't been online and therefore couldn't have sent the tiebreak:
-snip-
I could chalk a few of these up to honest mistakes, y'know? Maybe you didn't think of the hide status/offline thing. Maybe you didn't think through the fact that tying the vote isn't a scummy thing to do when it's your own neck on the line. I could deal with that. But the thing is, you haven't tried to correct any of these misconceptions or draw any new conclusions. By the time you had posted your lynch reasons #1 was certainly false, and #2 you agreed was weak, but you are "not willing to unvote him just yet" for no obvious reason. You didn't want to remove your Ford vote when I asked for a little time "Because you had zero issue seeing him hang and didn't care to remove your vote". You are still pushing reasons that are shaky or patently false, and you are still voting Ford for these same reasons. Why? I would like to hear your thoughts.
Post by: zombie urist on February 08, 2013, 01:54:45 am
The ToLyK part seems awfully fishy,the fact hes out for lurkers,people who don't post much and he is trying too much to make us believe he is not mafia but tries to open a window to eliminate other people from the game whenever he gets the chance.I meant this post. Also, your case sucks. Please provide evidence of where you see such behavior.
What do you mean the first time around?
pfp. Zoom, pls provide reasons for why tou think ford deswrves lynch.
Tiruin: I notice you don't have a read for NQT. Why is that?
Dariush: Stop lurking.
Hapah: While its true you can hide your online status, I don't think you can mask the time last active. Though I suppose it is possible Toaster would try to "break" the game by submitting the action with someone else's account.
I personally will try to avoid the metagaming from now on.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 08, 2013, 07:14:38 am
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Hapah:
Captain Ford: Toaster, Dariush, Deathsword, TheZoomZoll (4) <-- L-2
TheZoomZoll: zombie urist (1)
Deathsword: obolisk0430, notquitethere (2)
notquitethere:
zombie urist:
Toaster: Hapah (1)
obolisk0430:
Not voting: Tiruin, Captain Ford (2)
Deadline: 12:52:14 am GMT on the 9th of February (about 13 hours away).
Post by: Leafsnail on February 08, 2013, 07:26:50 am
I'll be going on the time displayed by the forums rather than this, but this should tell you unambiguously which hour it is.
Post by: Dariush on February 08, 2013, 09:36:30 am
Ford:
I don't even know why you're voting me anymore. You've agreed with me on the main point we were arguing about and you haven't raised any new points at all. You just keep calling me scummy.You're so stupid. I don't even know which is this 'main point' on which I supposedly agreed with you is. I'm voting you because you're a hypocrite, because if you weren't scum scum would have no reason to choose Tolyk over you, because you're voted ZU for no reason whatsoever, because you intentionally made an unreadable post and I'm only two pages in and I'm only reading my own posts in which I said all this before and to which you didn't bother replying. So you're a liar too.
TZZ, WTF. Why RVS? Why FoSes accompanying RVS questions? Why did you not read neither the thread nor the rules? Why did you put Ford into L-1 with the most generic of possible answers 'he seemed scummy'?
Tiruin, explain why TZZ is 'leaning town' in your eyes. He did absolutely nothing even remotely approaching 'useful' (or 'not scummy', for that matter) up until your post (or after it, for that matter). Also, don't you suspect anybody?
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 12:16:58 pm
Hiding your online status does not affect the "Last Active" field on your profile (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=464096.0).1: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3997598#msg3997598) He was online during the kill send in.It has been confirmed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4011499#msg4011499) that not only could someone hide their online status and submit the vote, they could even do it from a completely different account if they so desired. Your first point isn't nearly as damning as it looks at first glance. Anyone could have sent the vote, couldn't they?
Post by: zombie urist on February 08, 2013, 12:23:29 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 01:59:06 pm
I don't even know why you're voting me anymore. You've agreed with me on the main point we were arguing about and you haven't raised any new points at all. You just keep calling me scummy.You're so stupid. I don't even know which is this 'main point' on which I supposedly agreed with you is.
This:
If a claim results in the death of a mafia member, then regardless of what that claim was or who made it, it was beneficial to the town.Claiming mason is a null-tell, as you've previously said. Quite surprisingly (coming from you), it is true.
Which is a reversal of your original opinion.
You never challenged the next thing I said, so I'm assuming that you had no problem with it.
> I'm voting you because you're a hypocrite.
Not a scumtell.
> because if you weren't scum scum would have no reason to choose Tolyk over you
That's the stupidest thing I think I've heard anyone say, ever. You really are dumb as a brick, aren't you?
If you really believe that, why haven't you addressed my (rephrased) counterargument (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4007145#msg4007145)? (bottom of the post)
> because you're voted ZU for no reason whatsoever
LOL.
I had a good reason. I even stated it in my post. You haven't addressed my reasoning, so you're pretty much just lying your ass off.
I also replied to your statement (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3999812#msg3999812) with a more detailed explanation. You haven't addressed it, so you're talking out of your ass.
> because you intentionally made an unreadable post
That was the point, dumbass. I was antagonizing Deathsword to see how he reacted.
Incidentally, several of my friends have read it, and they laughed out loud reading it. So clearly, it's not unreadable. And it's funny. I don't see how your linguistic inadequacies are my fault.
> and I'm only two pages in and I'm only reading my own posts in which I said all this before and to which you didn't bother replying. So you're a liar too.
Well, if you're not reading my posts, then how can you know whether or not I replied to them? I'm pretty sure I already addressed all these points, but some of them were mentioned when I was talking to other people and not directly to you.
So most of your case is lies or pointless BS. I have addressed all of those points before, so you're clearly just lazy and/or lying. The ball is in your court right now, Dariush. Don't put this on me.
Deathsword:
First of all, you only addressed the first half of Hapah's question. I want to see your response to the rest of it.DS: You've got a question below (and I vaguely recall you wanting to be addressed in some particular way. Is DS alright?)Assuming this:DS: Do you still hold that Ford must be scum? I for one think that he's one of the flavors of town, and that lynching Tolyk over Ford was a great move: look at how much attention he got at the start of D2. The resulting shitstorm seems to have taken up most of the day.is what you are referring to, the answer to that would be yes, I still think him to be scum. He chainsawed to defend NQT and repeatedly stated he believes NQT to be town, despite little to no interaction with him. I find that to be quite suspicious, as is NQT's defense of him.
Second of all, I can see this flew entirely over your head, but first of all, I "chainsawed" because you were making a shit case. Second of all, I intentionally did it in that manner to create the impression of the two of us being masonbuddies. It may even have led to the deaths of Nerjin and Urist Imiknorris. But I'm not claiming that I did. If I really am a mason, then they obviously weren't targeting me.
My interpretation of the game setup is that the only chance for masons to survive is for scum to not know who is a mason and who is a townie. My goal wasn't actually to make scum use their daykills, it was to create enough uncertainty that they wouldn't try it. I figured that the actual masons wouldn't be confused, because they'd know (if) I was bluffing. They wouldn't know if I was actually trying to help them, or if I was just trying to look like it -- but they would know that I couldn't fool them, and that I knew that when I did it.
Your interactions with me have been petty and your case has been weak. You haven't addressed my counterarguments, and yet are still on track to lynch me.
I still don't think you're scum. Otherwise I'd have voted you right here.
Post by: Toaster on February 08, 2013, 02:10:40 pm
It has been confirmed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4011499#msg4011499) that not only could someone hide their online status and submit the vote, they could even do it from a completely different account if they so desired. Your first point isn't nearly as damning as it looks at first glance. Anyone could have sent the vote, couldn't they?
You really think someone would risk being banned* over that? I think the odds are laughable.
*Two accounts gets both banned
Even if I unvoted, Ford would just vote Deathsword and we'd be right back to where we were at the end of D1. What good would that do us?
Post by: zombie urist on February 08, 2013, 02:16:54 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27009.0
Post by: Hapah on February 08, 2013, 02:55:24 pm
Leafsnail: Awesome. Thank you for that.
Toaster, ZU: Do we have confirmation one way or the other? I googled and poked around on the wiki but came up empty-handed.
Ford: Good to know about the "Last Active" field. I've learned more about the forums from this game than all the rest put together, lol.
Even if I unvoted, Ford would just vote Deathsword and we'd be right back to where we were at the end of D1. What good would that do us?So you are still willing to leave your vote on Ford even with your doubts? Do you think Ford or DS is scummier?
Post by: Teneb on February 08, 2013, 03:06:27 pm
Deathsword:You will have to explain how I didn't answer his question when the questio was if I still thought you were scum.First of all, you only addressed the first half of Hapah's question. I want to see your response to the rest of it.DS: You've got a question below (and I vaguely recall you wanting to be addressed in some particular way. Is DS alright?)Assuming this:DS: Do you still hold that Ford must be scum? I for one think that he's one of the flavors of town, and that lynching Tolyk over Ford was a great move: look at how much attention he got at the start of D2. The resulting shitstorm seems to have taken up most of the day.is what you are referring to, the answer to that would be yes, I still think him to be scum. He chainsawed to defend NQT and repeatedly stated he believes NQT to be town, despite little to no interaction with him. I find that to be quite suspicious, as is NQT's defense of him.
Quote from: Ford
Second of all, I can see this flew entirely over your head, but first of all, I "chainsawed" because you were making a shit case. Second of all, I intentionally did it in that manner to create the impression of the two of us being masonbuddies. It may even have led to the deaths of Nerjin and Urist Imiknorris. But I'm not claiming that I did. If I really am a mason, then they obviously weren't targeting me.This is WIFOM as fuck and the claim of doing it to look like a masonbuddy to me is pure bullshit.
Quote from: Ford
My interpretation of the game setup is that the only chance for masons to survive is for scum to not know who is a mason and who is a townie. My goal wasn't actually to make scum use their daykills, it was to create enough uncertainty that they wouldn't try it. I figured that the actual masons wouldn't be confused, because they'd know (if) I was bluffing. They wouldn't know if I was actually trying to help them, or if I was just trying to look like it -- but they would know that I couldn't fool them, and that I knew that when I did it.Ok, when people are voting you with meta, you claim meta to be bad. But then you went and did some metagaming on this very same game.
Oh, and hypocrisy IS scummy.
Post by: zombie urist on February 08, 2013, 03:16:38 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 04:11:36 pm
I'm 80% certain that zombie urist is scum, because of:
1a. The timing if the tie-breaker.
1b. The fact that he was active closest to Leafsnail's post.
1c. The fact that he didn't post anywhere, despite the fact he was active. It implies he wasn't posting in any other threads, or at the very least that he didn't want to be associated with the breaking of the tie.
2. His (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3998187#msg3998187) reaction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4000605#msg4000605) to the "last active" evidence. Especially giving up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4000798#msg4000798). With half of the scum team lost in the first day, the team most likely to feel like it's hopeless is the scum team.
3. The way that he's posting very short snippets, often without quoting the people he is responding to or putting their names in bold is a blatant attempt to avoid attracting attention. He has lots of posts, but little content.
4. Wishy-washy voting. A lot of "I don't know anymore". Applies little to no pressure.
5. Failure to Deliver (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3990491#msg3990491). Promises to post "something substantial", but continues his pattern of posting very little.
6. Very nonoffensive. A lot of his posts are aimed at clarifying misunderstandings, or claiming people aren't town.
That's the case I can raise on him. Ultimately, my strongest reason for suspecting him is because he fits the profile of competent scum. The strongest piece of evidence I have is the fact that the time of his last activity was closest to the vote. Once I am lynched, that piece of evidence should be much stronger, since I will be shown to have no reason to lie about it. His reaction to it is also something I find telling.
I'm pissed at Toaster for what seemed like him trying to downplay the importance of evidence that he himself introduced, when my statements on that matter are one of the most valuable things that could come out of lynching me. I still find it scummy that he essentially said that a piece of evidence that implicates several people is somehow only valid in my case. That doesn't make sense, and it makes it look like he's trying to prevent it from backfiring onto members of his own team.
I've had a lot of fun in this game. I don't mind going down now, because I think my lynch will be very informative. Good luck to the remaining townies and masons in hunting down the remaining villains.
PPE: Deathsword. (Seriously, like 30 seconds before I was going to post that)
(You can pretty much consider the following to be a separate post entirely)
Deathsword:
Oh, I'm sorry. I did it create the impression of me and NQT being masonbuddies, not you. If anyone thinks you and me are buddies, they'd have to be nuts.Quote from: FordSecond of all, I can see this flew entirely over your head, but first of all, I "chainsawed" because you were making a shit case. Second of all, I intentionally did it in that manner to create the impression of the two of us being masonbuddies. It may even have led to the deaths of Nerjin and Urist Imiknorris. But I'm not claiming that I did. If I really am a mason, then they obviously weren't targeting me.This is WIFOM as fuck and the claim of doing it to look like a masonbuddy to me is pure bullshit.
Uh...huh?Quote from: FordMy interpretation of the game setup is that the only chance for masons to survive is for scum to not know who is a mason and who is a townie. My goal wasn't actually to make scum use their daykills, it was to create enough uncertainty that they wouldn't try it. I figured that the actual masons wouldn't be confused, because they'd know (if) I was bluffing. They wouldn't know if I was actually trying to help them, or if I was just trying to look like it -- but they would know that I couldn't fool them, and that I knew that when I did it.Ok, when people are voting you with meta, you claim meta to be bad. But then you went and did some metagaming on this very same game.
There is no relationship between these two things besides the fact that they share 4 letters. Can you please explain how this makes me scummy?
Oh, and hypocrisy IS scummy.Totally disagree. Everyone's guilty of it to some degree, and anyone who says they aren't is wrong. Not necessarily lying, but wrong all the same.
I think it's Jim Groovester who says it best, but there's others:
Spoiler: Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell (click to show/hide)
Now while hypocrisy itself isn't a scumtell, scum are more often seen pushing it as a scumtell. Just like you, Deathsword.
I was planning to go down with a vote on ZU, but this post alone was enough to change my mind about you. I want to see you hang, scumbag.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 04:47:02 pm
To be totally clear, I was referencing the "Last Activity" field on the profiles on each player, which is not affected by hiding one's online status (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=464096.0). NQT and I were active during this time. ZU's last activity was 2 minutes away from the the tiebreak.
You know, what's most scummy about that is that ZU's last activity was two minutes before the tie break, which implies he sent the PM and then logged off. If he'd done anything but that -- refreshed the thread, navigated to any other page, pressed a preview button -- it would have updated, but it remained the same for several hours, unlike mine and NQT's. That means that he was active until 2 minutes before Leafsnail posted the lynch result, and then he left. You have to admit that if it's a coincidence, it's a very, very unlikely one.
As for using 2 accounts -- that didn't happen. If the scum that submitted the vote was being that paranoid about it, they would have brought it up to Leafsnail, and Leafsnail would have come up with a solution for it. It's a lot more work than was absolutely necessary.
What's telling to me here is that ZU hasn't insisted that it's a coincidence. Nor has he denied that our evidence is accurate. If I or Toaster were lying, he would have said something by now. He seems to just be hoping it goes away (or like he said, he's just given up).
zombie urist:
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
To Nobody in Particular (which means everyone): I'm only getting more certain that ZU is scum. The fact that he didn't respond to the metainfo is much stronger evidence than the information itself. He should have mounted some kind of defense by now, but instead he gave up.
Unless there's a sudden rally behind me in the next couple hours, I would rather go down with a vote on zombie urist. Don't let me down, town. I got you three* scumbags. Surely you can find the last one.
* Unless I'm wrong, of course. ;D
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 04:51:48 pm
Leafsnail: You should read my last post too, since it directly concerns a reply of yours.
Post by: zombie urist on February 08, 2013, 05:24:58 pm
To be totally clear, I was referencing the "Last Activity" field on the profiles on each player, which is not affected by hiding one's online status (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=464096.0). NQT and I were active during this time. ZU's last activity was 2 minutes away from the the tiebreak.Its also possible NQT or DS or you for that matter could have submitted the tiebreaker then went on to continue browsing. I can't remember exactly what I was doing at that time or whether I was online at all, but I didn't submit a tiebreaker. Also, I have no idea how you counted three "3".
You know, what's most scummy about that is that ZU's last activity was two minutes before the tie break, which implies he sent the PM and then logged off. If he'd done anything but that -- refreshed the thread, navigated to any other page, pressed a preview button -- it would have updated, but it remained the same for several hours, unlike mine and NQT's. That means that he was active until 2 minutes before Leafsnail posted the lynch result, and then he left. You have to admit that if it's a coincidence, it's a very, very unlikely one.
Unless there's a sudden rally behind me in the next couple hours, I would rather go down with a vote on zombie urist. Don't let me down, town. I got you three* scumbags. Surely you can find the last one.
I'm also hesitant to trust Toaster's data.
Post by: Hapah on February 08, 2013, 06:01:56 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 06:26:36 pm
Also, I have no idea how you counted three "3".You + Nerjin + Imiknorris = 3. I'm going down, so I might as well take credit for the two bandits who doxxed themselves. In a couple hours, you're all going to know I was a townie, and NQT's theory about Nerjin targeting me is probably correct given the timing, and since Imiknorris didn't know what target Nerjin chose, it's entirely possible he targeted me too.
Of course, I would have to share the credit with NQT, who was a wonderful fake masonbuddy partner (it was great working with you). I think he's town more now than I did back then.
(Yes, it's incredibly arrogant. It's also tongue-in-cheek, so take it with a grain of salt. I thought I was being far too obvious to be the target, but the play of the rest of the players has taught me that nothing is too obvious. It probably was me and NQT that brought them down)
(I'm probably wrong though. I'm not really that arrogant. But I decided I'd like to go out with a bang)
Oh, and you're lying. Coming up with a defense right after I suggested it to you? Well, I can't blame you for trying. But your timing couldn't have been worse, you know.
To be fair, I don't expect you to be lynched based purely on this evidence. But I'd be very disappointed in my fellow players if you didn't get at least a healthy amount of attention.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 08:00:33 pm
Well, not without my computer. It has all my stuff on it!
Post by: Leafsnail on February 08, 2013, 08:18:17 pm
Votecount (6 votes to lynch):
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Hapah:
Captain Ford: Toaster, Dariush, Deathsword, TheZoomZoll (4) <-- Lynched
TheZoomZoll: zombie urist (1)
Deathsword: obolisk0430, notquitethere, Captain Ford (3)
notquitethere:
zombie urist:
Toaster: Hapah (1)
obolisk0430:
Not voting: Tiruin, (1)
Lynch scene following soon.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 08:26:30 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 08, 2013, 08:30:32 pm
February 9th, 2030
In the early hours of this morning a suspect's car went careening off a cliff after an apparent malfunction of his car's auto-drive feature. While doctors believe his life is not in danger it is expected that he will have to spend several weeks in hospital to fully recover.
Police have alleged that the man - know as "Captain Ford" online - was involved in criminal hacking group Pseudonym as a regular member - a "townie". The man's laptop, which was found inside the car, is expected to provide additional evidence. They suspect that he was attempting to flee the country, although the reason for this is unclear.
Captain Ford has been lynched.
He was a townie.
Deadline is exactly one week away from this post - that's about 1.30am GMT on the 16th of February. A countdown link will follow this post.
With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 08, 2013, 08:33:32 pm
Sorry for any confusion, but I did go down with a vote on ZU after all. I made it in reply #370 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4015203#msg4015203).You voted Deathsword after you voted ZU! Generally it's the last vote that counts.
Post by: obolisk0430 on February 08, 2013, 09:47:36 pm
Deathsword is scum.
Post by: Toaster on February 08, 2013, 10:08:45 pm
obolisk:
Ugh. So I haven't been posting. Sorry. I've been busy preparing for school stuff, but it should be pretty good for a while.
Deathsword is scum.
Why?
Post by: zombie urist on February 08, 2013, 10:20:50 pm
pgp
Post by: Captain Ford on February 08, 2013, 10:24:08 pm
Post by: notquitethere on February 08, 2013, 10:31:02 pm
Expect some proper vote analysis when I'm awake.
Post by: zombie urist on February 09, 2013, 12:04:02 am
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 09, 2013, 12:47:37 am
zoomxoll what do you think now? who is most scummy?
now I'm looking closely at ZoomZoll's poorly argued flippant vote for Ford.
Expect some proper vote analysis when I'm awake.
I regret nothing!Uhm..
I don't really remember my name to be zoomxoll but err..
I am curious why Tiruin didn't vote.
He was the only one not to.
Post by: Dariush on February 09, 2013, 09:57:59 am
TZZ, stop ignoring me.
ZU, who do you think is the most scummy?
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 09, 2013, 11:33:18 am
TZZ, WTF. Why RVS? Why FoSes accompanying RVS questions? Why did you not read neither the thread nor the rules? Why did you put Ford into L-1 with the most generic of possible answers 'he seemed scummy'?
Oops I forgot about this one.
Do you have a problem with them?
I have read the thread and rules before I joined.
Is there a rule called "You can not vote anybody acting suspicious if you don't write a page of text to prove it"
Or a rule called "You will not vote anybody at all and keep the Mafia game going for ages because its HARDCORE"
Post by: Tiruin on February 09, 2013, 04:05:32 pm
I don't really remember my name to be zoomxoll but err..Because I read the thread - my vote was on Ford - didn't see him as that scummy as compared to my initial reason on voting him [in relation to his claiming mason and the posts related to that] but then was pressed with time to post so instead of leaving my vote there, I withdrew it.
I am curious why Tiruin didn't vote.
He was the only one not to.
Because I lacked time for anything in the near-couple of days at the time of the post.
Tiruin: I notice you don't have a read for NQT. Why is that?> It is null. [Refer to statement regarding null reads]
> I was rushing that post. For the players who I haven't marked and was still suspicious of - with reason being how they post and their wording (I was re-reading back at the time) - I leave a signifying format. Forgot to delete the [/s] and leave my read there.
TZZ
TZZ, stop ignoring me.
Oh huh. Well, I'm interested in your answer to that question too, because you've FoS'd me, and given nothing but vague questions that have a label of 'psychological' on them.TZZ, WTF. Why RVS? Why FoSes accompanying RVS questions? Why did you not read neither the thread nor the rules? Why did you put Ford into L-1 with the most generic of possible answers 'he seemed scummy'?
Oops I forgot about this one.
Do you have a problem with them?
I have read the thread and rules before I joined.
Is there a rule called "You can not vote anybody acting suspicious if you don't write a page of text to prove it"
Or a rule called "You will not vote anybody at all and keep the Mafia game going for ages because its HARDCORE"
Also, seems like you just went around the question, not answering it and giving one back. How does that make sense?
What is the reason and purpose behind those? And why are you asking those kinds of questions at this moment?
Because if you are following the statement you have right there - second to last paragraph - I see nothing suspicious about my preference for being a peasant than a stoneworker. If you did see something suspicious there, why didn't you FoS me with your query on my lack of vote?
Does my vote matter muchly to you?
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 09, 2013, 04:23:28 pm
Oh huh. Well, I'm interested in your answer to that question too, because you've FoS'd me, and given nothing but vague questions that have a label of 'psychological' on them.Why those kind of questions?Those were some random questions I made on-spot for the randomness of it.Looking back at it now kind of seems stupid and nonsensical but I made 3 or 4 people maybe even 5 suspect me just because I asked somebody what flavor of ice-cream they liked more.
Also, seems like you just went around the question, not answering it and giving one back. How does that make sense?
What is the reason and purpose behind those? And why are you asking those kinds of questions at this moment?
Because if you are following the statement you have right there - second to last paragraph - I see nothing suspicious about my preference for being a peasant than a stoneworker. If you did see something suspicious there, why didn't you FoS me with your query on my lack of vote?
Does my vote matter muchly to you?
That,is unintentionally ingenious I tell you.I bet nobody ever got accused of being part of the mafia just because he asked somebody during a questioning what flavor he liked more.That is funny indeed.
How does it make sense you ask?Well,I have already told him at least once that those questions were in no way "SUPER SRS BUSINESS" so why do it again if hes going to ask the same thing again?
If you already read to this part you know the answer to this one.
No need to ask you if you would prefer to vote for communism or democracy is there?Oh hey thats a good unintentional question as well!
Maybe you want to answer that for no reason as well?
I kinda wanted to see who people suspect so maybe.
Post by: zombie urist on February 09, 2013, 05:05:16 pm
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 09, 2013, 05:08:40 pm
Bah. Go play in a BM. >:(
Thats all you have to say?
How about you get me lynched so the mafia will get a better chance?
Hmm?
Or do you think I am ze lying right now?
Post by: Teneb on February 09, 2013, 05:24:42 pm
Oh huh. Well, I'm interested in your answer to that question too, because you've FoS'd me, and given nothing but vague questions that have a label of 'psychological' on them.Why those kind of questions?Those were some random questions I made on-spot for the randomness of it.Looking back at it now kind of seems stupid and nonsensical but I made 3 or 4 people maybe even 5 suspect me just because I asked somebody what flavor of ice-cream they liked more.
Also, seems like you just went around the question, not answering it and giving one back. How does that make sense?
What is the reason and purpose behind those? And why are you asking those kinds of questions at this moment?
Because if you are following the statement you have right there - second to last paragraph - I see nothing suspicious about my preference for being a peasant than a stoneworker. If you did see something suspicious there, why didn't you FoS me with your query on my lack of vote?
Does my vote matter muchly to you?
That,is unintentionally ingenious I tell you.I bet nobody ever got accused of being part of the mafia just because he asked somebody during a questioning what flavor he liked more.That is funny indeed.
How does it make sense you ask?Well,I have already told him at least once that those questions were in no way "SUPER SRS BUSINESS" so why do it again if hes going to ask the same thing again?
If you already read to this part you know the answer to this one.
No need to ask you if you would prefer to vote for communism or democracy is there?Oh hey thats a good unintentional question as well!
Maybe you want to answer that for no reason as well?
I kinda wanted to see who people suspect so maybe.
This is the most idiotic post I've seen in a Mafia game.
Your questions are irrelevant to the game, and you yourself said they were random or meant to confuse people. You are not trying to find scum, you are not trying to find masons, you are not trying to do anything other than shit around and disrupt the game. You are the worst player I've seen and will ever see.
Before you mock us REAL players again by saying that "SUPER SRS BUSINESS" shitpile of yours, know that a game of mafia should indeed be treated as serious business.
How about you get me lynched so the mafia will get a better chance?If you are lying or not, it matter little. You are a stain on this game, TZZ, and it will be better off without you.
Hmm?
Or do you think I am ze lying right now?
NQT: Stop buddying. Because calling any player a good man after his death is just that, post-mortem buddying.
Obolisk: reasons, ye lurker.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 09, 2013, 05:37:36 pm
This is the most idiotic post I've seen in a Mafia game.Thanks!Glad I could make it.I will have gifs and PNG's of the story.Gimme a sec for them.
Your questions are irrelevant to the game, and you yourself said they were random or meant to confuse people. You are not trying to find scum, you are not trying to find masons, you are not trying to do anything other than shit around and disrupt the game. You are the worst player I've seen and will ever see.
Before you mock us REAL players again by saying that "SUPER SRS BUSINESS" shitpile of yours, know that a game of mafia should indeed be treated as serious business.
If you are lying or not, it matter little. You are a stain on this game, TZZ, and it will be better off without you.
Thanks again!
I've made a quick picture as fast as I could to represent this real players thing.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If I am a stain are you part of
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on February 09, 2013, 07:39:22 pm
If you clearly showed he was town, then he wouldn't have been lynched.I beg to differ. What I say in the way of rational observation is consistently ignored. Once they got the blood lust (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2XGp5ix8HE) for Captain Ford and convinced themselves that he was scum despite the ample evidence I offered to the contrary, I was powerless to stop the mob. Most players aren't interested in looking at anything concrete and measurable like voting patterns, but only nebulous scum tells and this way of thinking is letting the scum team win.
Deathsword
Stop buddying. Because calling any player a good man after his death is just that, post-mortem buddying.This is a fine way of diverting attention from the fact that you helped lynch a town member, a town member that was obviously town. Despite rational reasons to the contrary you continued your bizarre vendetta. I don't give a monkey's if I look like I'm buddying to you: the only 'scum tell' worth caring about is letting scum win and lynching townies lets scum win. You are letting scum win, Deathsword.
TheZoomZoll
I can empathise with feeling that your fellow players are taking things 'too seriously'. But you've got to understand that the players of this game don't want a casual game. They enjoy arguments and counterarguments, and getting drawn into an atmosphere of intense paranoia. Your whimsical approach will be appreciated in more casual games (perhaps on the mafiascum site?) and, of course, in community games of dwarf fortress. As it stands, you're disrupting the other players' ability to play the game effectively by monopolising their energy in talking about you, a player uninterested in the norms of play, and not in hunting scum.
Post by: notquitethere on February 09, 2013, 07:45:33 pm
So another town member was hung. Unlike with TolyK's lynch, we can get some positive information from this one. We know that both TolyK and Ford were innocent and we know that scum will have known that. Scum have an incentive to lynch people the normal way as their assassinating power is so underpowered. Thus, we can suppose that at least one if not both of the remaining scum tried to lynch Tolyk or Ford in the first vote and Ford in the second.
Here's everyone that voted Ford the first time:
- Dariush
- Deathsword
- Tiruin
Here's everyone that voted for TolyK the first time:
- notquitethere
- Toaster
- Captain Ford
Here's everyone that voted for Ford's successful lynch:
- Toaster
- Dariush
- Deathsword
- TheZoomZoll
- Tiruin*
These are the common denominators:
- Dariush
- Deathsword
- Tiruin
- Toaster
Now masons among you may be able to rule out any fellow masons from this list. Whoever's left is likely to be scum. This obviously isn't iron tight: there's nothing stopping scum from lurking or deliberately acting irrationally, and at the end of the day, at least half this list is definitely innocent. But, I think it's the best thing that we have to go on right now.
My vote for ZZ stands until he withdraws from the game or starts playing properly (or, if one of the four I've just listed gives me additional reason to suspect them).
*I include Tiruin because, although he withdrew his vote, if he was scum he'd have good reason to suppose Ford was doomed by that point any way.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 09, 2013, 09:54:08 pm
Post by: notquitethere on February 09, 2013, 10:46:23 pm
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 10, 2013, 02:01:31 am
That's a totally fair point and I apologise unreservedly if I came across as a jerk. It's good to have players and I'd much rather have ZZ play than the position go empty.Yep.Sorry If I offended any Starcraft 2 players.
Post by: Hapah on February 10, 2013, 03:07:06 pm
Post by: Hapah on February 11, 2013, 09:28:34 pm
Toaster: You finished that reread yet? What are you thoughts?
NQT: How much weight do you put on that list?
obolisk: You've got to give more than "I think he's scum". Why do you think he's scum?
Post by: Toaster on February 11, 2013, 09:31:59 pm
Post by: zombie urist on February 11, 2013, 09:48:20 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 12, 2013, 07:50:30 am
University calls, I've to answer.
Too little time to give at the moment with all the work going around...Especially sorry given that, in comparison with Hapah, I've not been able to get anything much except vote analyses (that bit on me strikethrough-ing without giving a read was meant to be null), TZZ appears to be trolling more than playing a Mafia player (or in the very least, unhelpful newbie town because if he was scum, then my outlook on him as a player will have reached its nadir due to his antics. Not a mason though, given how he...err, responds to anyone, although that may be just me looking at his words there.)
Post by: notquitethere on February 12, 2013, 08:28:03 am
Sad to see you go Tiruin.
Unvote.
Everyone else: is there soundness to my argument about who is most likely scum? I'll put my vote where my mouth is and switch to DS.
Hapah, basically I think it's the most unequivocal information we've got all game. It would be very strange indeed if the scum weren't trying to lynch the town team during the day.
Post by: Teneb on February 12, 2013, 11:06:48 am
By praising another player mid-game, you are buddying, especially since that player flipped town.
How is that list unequivocal? What guarantee do you have that the scum voted Ford at all? Unless you are scum, there is no way to know.
Obolisk still has to provide solid evidence as to why I am scum.
Leafsnail: I apologize for getting worked up by ZZT's taunts. I shall attempt to remain calm for the rest of the game.
FYI: I am a Starcraft player
Post by: notquitethere on February 12, 2013, 11:16:41 am
Look, you're behaving reasonably enough now. Unvote.
Toaster, how do you feel about contributing to the lynches of two innocent players?
Dariush, I expected somethe acerbic from you by now.
Post by: Tiruin on February 12, 2013, 11:19:20 am
Look, you're behaving reasonably enough now. Unvote.You do know unvotes go in red, right?
Post by: notquitethere on February 12, 2013, 11:23:23 am
In case it's ambiguous: Unvote.
Vote for Toaster.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 12, 2013, 11:30:09 am
Whats up with him?
Post by: Toaster on February 12, 2013, 12:21:19 pm
Toaster, how do you feel about contributing to the lynches of two innocent players?
I feel like I had valid cases against them and that my actions were justified. How about you? You were voting TolyK D1 right alongside me.
Were there any other outstanding questions to me? I don't think I missed anything, other than to tell Hapah that I'm interested in NQT's response here.
Post by: Hapah on February 12, 2013, 12:27:42 pm
I feel like I had valid cases against them and that my actions were justified.Did you? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4014778#msg4014778)
Post by: Toaster on February 12, 2013, 07:45:07 pm
Post by: Hapah on February 12, 2013, 09:59:59 pm
Toaster: What is your read on Deathsword?
If we lynch all the lurkers now we can pretty much kill everyone in the damn thread. Activity is terrible. Is everyone just crazy busy? Do you not like the game setup? What's the issue, people?
Post by: Toaster on February 12, 2013, 10:02:29 pm
Post by: Dariush on February 13, 2013, 12:58:08 pm
Dariush, I expected somethe acerbic from you by now.And expected you to be a hilariously scummy scumass. You largely succeeded, in case you care. What's your point?
Vote AnalysisThis is unbelievably stupid. Not only because you completely disregard the possibility thatThese are the common denominators:Spoiler: Snip (click to show/hide)
- Dariush
- Deathsword
- Tiruin
- Toaster
An admirable effort to imitate activity, but mass-FoSing isn't exactly as useful neither to town nor to scum as you imagine it to be.
Do you have a problem with them?Yep, I do. FoSing RVS targets in the middle of the fucking game because I really cannot stress this enough quite unambiguosly shows that you don't really care about who gets lynched and your only concern is imitating activity so you don't get lynched for lurking.
Is there a rule called "You can not vote anybody acting suspicious if you don't write a page of text to prove it"Yep, it's the fifth commandment: "Thou shalt not bandwagon with flimsy excuses."
Or a rule called "You will not vote anybody at all and keep the Mafia game going for ages because its HARDCORE"wat
Also, derailing attempts with stupid forced memes is definitely not appreciated here.
Mod, requesting forced replacement for lurkalisk.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 13, 2013, 01:28:34 pm
Is there a rule called "You can not vote anybody acting suspicious if you don't write a page of text to prove it"Yep, it's the fifth commandment: "Thou shalt not bandwagon with flimsy excuses."Or a rule called "You will not vote anybody at all and keep the Mafia game going for ages because its HARDCORE"wat
Also, derailing attempts with stupid forced memes is definitely not appreciated here.
getting worked up by TZZ's taunts.Getting worked up already?Oh man,at this rate we will need over 25 replacements!
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyae-jROTwzExo9aoY7dcocJwSsdx_zTHXrn6zNpVTPDx4pEorng)
I don't think so.
Dariush I see you don't like points of view and seek to kill anybody using them.How cute and strange at the same time!
You don't seem to like these so called "lurkers" also.Man,I do wonder if its hard to be the 1%....
Mind explaining again why you voted Ford?Oh and could you please tell me your favorite flavor of icecream and maybe stop using the "scum" word 30 times in your posts in weird combinations?Some foreign people may be using translators you know.
Post by: zombie urist on February 13, 2013, 02:50:38 pm
Post by: Hapah on February 14, 2013, 01:00:45 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 14, 2013, 08:35:09 am
-snip-
Hey, Mr. TZZ. Since you're vocal about your posts, including pictures to forward your points, what are your reads on everyone? Also, what are you doing to forward your wincondition?
Masons: Me, Hapah, DS, TolyK.
Now that'll get things ready. Even if we all die, its a 4v2. No scumkills.
ZU: What is your read on TZZ?
If there are any questions I've missed, hit me with them.
I include Tiruin because, although he withdrew his vote, if he was scum he'd have good reason to suppose Ford was doomed by that point any way.*I include Tiruin because, although he withdrew his vote, if he was scum he'd have good reason to suppose Ford was doomed by that point any way.Spoiler: Stuff analyzing the votes. (click to show/hide)
So the FoS, and not a vote? On your analysis, how are you able to specify and direct a plausible case on one of those persons? What did you glean by the vote analysis there?
Also, I withdrew my vote because I was very busy at the time - also read part of Ford's statements, the vote was primarily built on his joke as a mason - subtle me poking at it.
Now that the game's cracked, let's get the activity flowing and make Leafsnail happy, aye?
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tiruin on February 14, 2013, 08:35:59 am
I meant...err, I'm probably going to ask for a replacement, but not in the near future anytime in the next month or two.
Post by: Teneb on February 14, 2013, 11:54:51 am
Also, are you saying that you can keep playing until you are replaced or that you may have to ask for replacement in the near future?
Post by: zombie urist on February 14, 2013, 12:07:31 pm
Tiruin: I think you failed to account for the possilbility of two town being lynched once the scum off us. But now it's out isn't it? If anyone has any questions for us masons, you better say them before we get scumkilled.What does this mean?
@Tiruin: He's probably a starcraft player. ::)
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 14, 2013, 12:15:19 pm
probably a starcraft player. ::)Nope.
You know, I'd just like to say tentative replacement but I'm still playing, as of the moment due to...the game speed, and that I've got time (but only just enough).Vocal?Thats a weird way to put it.-snip-
Hey, Mr. TZZ. Since you're vocal about your posts, including pictures to forward your points, what are your reads on everyone? Also, what are you doing to forward your wincondition?
Masons: Me, Hapah, DS, TolyK.
Now that the word is out and all theres really nothing to suspect.
Tiruin why have you revealed the masons;are you actually serious or just trying to do something.
Post by: Tiruin on February 14, 2013, 12:22:00 pm
Yeah, see, this is how things work.You know, I'd just like to say tentative replacement but I'm still playing, as of the moment due to...the game speed, and that I've got time (but only just enough).Vocal?Thats a weird way to put it.-snip-
Hey, Mr. TZZ. Since you're vocal about your posts, including pictures to forward your points, what are your reads on everyone? Also, what are you doing to forward your wincondition?
Masons: Me, Hapah, DS, TolyK.
Now that the word is out and all theres really nothing to suspect.
Tiruin why have you revealed the masons;are you actually serious or just trying to do something.
I ask you something, you respond in accordance - preferably in an answer to the question. As to yours, I'm obviously serious, and I'm obviously doing something. Why are you so vague?
Why is there really nothing to 'suspect', huh? Don't tell me that you've been doing...nothing important these past days. Fathom a read back, monsieur?
Tiruin: I think you failed to account for the possilbility of two town being lynched once the scum off us. But now it's out isn't it? If anyone has any questions for us masons, you better say them before we get scumkilled.@First statement: That will take...Forever. Two. Whole Weeks. Also, in that time, there would be at least some activity going on.
Also, are you saying that you can keep playing until you are replaced or that you may have to ask for replacement in the near future?
@Second: Its probable, but I see myself in a secure enough position to play. Meaning: I'm back. :)
Post by: zombie urist on February 14, 2013, 12:40:51 pm
Post by: Teneb on February 14, 2013, 12:44:46 pm
It means that even with 4v2 the town can still lose by lynching the wrong people. And the "once the scumm off us" is that the scum may attempt to kill the three living masons (which includes myself) before any lynch happens.Tiruin: I think you failed to account for the possilbility of two town being lynched once the scum off us. But now it's out isn't it? If anyone has any questions for us masons, you better say them before we get scumkilled.What does this mean?
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 14, 2013, 12:52:40 pm
Man,I thought we were going to need even more replacements.
Looking at it now,I know my position in the game and now that the "masons" are revealed there aren't many other choices.
We are 9 now I think.I know my position in this so we take 1 off.I also know these 3 masons that would make 5 people left as suspects.
Not quite there managed to call 2 masons as suspects which is weird.
Overall everybody seems pissy.Obolisk may be mafia but I won't accuse.
Dariush seems to be getting more mad by the lynch.He seemed angry because of the townie lynch.Anybody else notice that?
2 weeks.Sheesh!
I don't remember mafia being this slow and dull.Mainly because nobody does anything but vote,unvote,vote again and then maybe unvote again or just wait it out.The lack of the night-time may be also be causing this.
Post by: notquitethere on February 14, 2013, 08:13:54 pm
Toaster
I feel like I had valid cases against them and that my actions were justified. How about you? You were voting TolyK D1 right alongside me.That's right, I voted Tolyk: but, it should be stressed, I didn't anticipate that my vote (or yours for that matter) would specifically get TolyK lynched. It was more that you voted for two innocents in succession that raised my attention. We can both agree that TolyK looked a bit sketchy at the time. Ford though, for reasons I've gone over a bunch of times, Ford was so much more likely to be Town than anything else. I think some of you voted him just because other people had voted him and an aura of guilt had arisen through association.
That's all done now. Let's talk about newer revelations. What do you think about Tiruin's purported mason claims?
Hapah
NQT: Toaster has a point, you both did more or less policy lynch Tolyk D1. D2 is a different beast, though. And I'd watch reading too much into the D1 votes: since both parties that were on the chopping block ended up being town, scum really could have placed their vote anywhere D1.Yeah, you've got a good point. Hence why I specifically argued after D1 that there wasn't much that could be read at the time. However, the combination of D1 and D2 votes is telling, I think. Sure, scum could have voted wherever on either day. But, if we accept that it's plausible that scum had an incentive to bandwagon both days, then from the shortlist of people that lynched on both days, we've got a list of people that are more likely to be scum than other players.
But if you think that we should only be looking at D2, then the only player I omitted was the slightly suspect ZoomZoll.
Question: do you think Tiruin's revelation will help the town team. Is he telling the truth? (If you think telling me whether Tiruin's telling the truth will damage team town, then feel free to ignore this question.)
Dariush
~Vote analysis and sass~
Quote from: Dariush
This is unbelievably stupid. Not only because you completely disregard the possibility thatOh Dariush! You wound me so! Naturally, you're not going to like my sharp analysis when it finds you in the crosshairs! Of course scum could be lurkers and of course scum probably aren't behind every lynch. I was merely arguing that this is the best damn lead we've got. My 'mass-FOSing' is merely drawing up a short-list of potential scum. How is that not helpful to town? Pointing fingers at random will lose us this game.your scumbuddy oboliskscum may be lurking their asses off (which is, oh, the only reason lurkers are lynched) or the fact that you hold to the widely disproven theory that scum must necessarily be behind each and every town lynch there is and behind 90% of scum lynches, but also because you quite niftily strike yourself from the 'common denominator' list despite fitting there exactly as much as four people you've FoSed for no reason whatsoever.
An admirable effort to imitate activity, but mass-FoSing isn't exactly as useful neither to town nor to scum as you imagine it to be.
Here's a question: do you think Tiruin's revelation is good for team town? Best case, they are masons and scum won't lynch (afraid it's a ruse) and town won't lynch (afraid it's true). Worst case, the opposite. What are your thoughts?
Tiruin
Masons: Me, Hapah, DS, TolyK.This is a
Quote
So the FoS, and not a vote? On your analysis, how are you able to specify and direct a plausible case on one of those persons? What did you glean by the vote analysis there?Well, I can't vote everyone. My vote analysis gives us a shortlist of potential targets. That's all. We've still got to go further and press a case against suspicious individuals. (Which I've been doing.)
Let's say we take your revelation at face value, then the remaining suspects are Dariush and Toaster. They could be the scum team. ZZ could still yet be scum: he bandwagonned Ford and it's hard to get a read on his role's early play because Edos' activity dropped off the map.
ZoomZoll
Not quite there managed to call 2 masons as suspects which is weird.Not that strange. First, we don't know if Tiruin's claim is legit. Assuming it is, we'd expect masons to block vote, so it comes as no surprise to me. At least half the suspects in my list have to be non-scum so this should be expected.
Quote
Dariush seems to be getting more mad by the lynch. He seemed angry because of the townie lynch.Anybody else notice that?Mounting evidence suggests Dariush is always mad. It's his default register.
As to my suspicions: Toaster has responded reasonably. Dariush has responded Dariushly. You, though, you jumped on Ford and have been deliberately antagonistic. Is that scum behaviour?
Obo
Are you alive?
ZU
I'm not going to lie, I'm reading you as pretty town right now based on the voting patterns. But Ford was adamant you were scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4015086#msg4015086). I'd like to see a more substantial response from you about the current game state.
DS
Who do you suspect most? Still ZZ? What about the putative case I've laid against Toaster and Dariush?
Post by: notquitethere on February 14, 2013, 09:58:20 pm
Mod, can we have an official vote count/deadline please.
Post by: Toaster on February 14, 2013, 11:00:09 pm
ToasterI feel like I had valid cases against them and that my actions were justified. How about you? You were voting TolyK D1 right alongside me.That's right, I voted Tolyk: but, it should be stressed, I didn't anticipate that my vote (or yours for that matter) would specifically get TolyK lynched. It was more that you voted for two innocents in succession that raised my attention. We can both agree that TolyK looked a bit sketchy at the time. Ford though, for reasons I've gone over a bunch of times, Ford was so much more likely to be Town than anything else. I think some of you voted him just because other people had voted him and an aura of guilt had arisen through association.
That's all done now. Let's talk about newer revelations. What do you think about Tiruin's purported mason claims?
No, it isn't done.
I think some of you voted him just because other people had voted him and an aura of guilt had arisen through association.
Don't faff about. Are you accusing me or not? Putting out these vague attacks is scummy, especially given your initial accusation ("You voted for town twice!") is complete bullshit.
along with Toaster, neither of you have voted yet.
Okay, let me fix that.
Notquitethere.
As far as Tiruin's claim, I'm going to sit and wait on that one. I think I get the point behind it, but I want to see what shakes out from his claim before I comment further.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 14, 2013, 11:30:53 pm
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?p0=136&iso=20130216T013032&year=2013&month=2&day=16&hour=1&min=30&sec=32&msg=Day%203%20deadline&csz=1
Note that I'll be using the post time recorded by the forum rather than this one, but this should be accurate to like within a minute.
Votecount (5 votes to lynch):
Dariush: notquitethere (1)
Tiruin:
Hapah:
TheZoomZoll: zombie urist, Tiruin (2)
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: Toaster (1)
zombie urist:
Toaster:
obolisk0430: Dariush (1)
Not voting: obolisk0430, Hapah, TheZoomZoll (3)
Seeking replacement for obolisk0430.
Post by: Hapah on February 14, 2013, 11:32:09 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 14, 2013, 11:39:16 pm
That was a quick comeback.Oh yes. Evade my questions more, will you?
Man,I thought we were going to need even more replacements.
Looking at it now,I know my position in the game and now that the "masons" are revealed there aren't many other choices.
We are 9 now I think.I know my position in this so we take 1 off.I also know these 3 masons that would make 5 people left as suspects.
Not quite there managed to call 2 masons as suspects which is weird.
Overall everybody seems pissy.Obolisk may be mafia but I won't accuse.
Dariush seems to be getting more mad by the lynch.He seemed angry because of the townie lynch.Anybody else notice that?
2 weeks.Sheesh!
I don't remember mafia being this slow and dull.Mainly because nobody does anything but vote,unvote,vote again and then maybe unvote again or just wait it out.The lack of the night-time may be also be causing this.
I say again. Why are you holding back in every possible statement you have? Afraid to use your vote?
Why did you take my claim in full, without any doubt? Also, "I know my position in the game"? What is that supposed to mean?
At least be precise in your answers since I'm under the assumption that you're reasonable or are committing the newbie card tell, which...is now an irrelevant idea.
Please answer the questions I asked you along with an explanation on why. Thanks. It would help this game not be slow and dull because you'd be helping.
TiruinExpound on the orange.Masons: Me, Hapah, DS, TolyK.This is asuicidalbold move. How do you think this helps team town?QuoteSo the FoS, and not a vote? On your analysis, how are you able to specify and direct a plausible case on one of those persons? What did you glean by the vote analysis there?Well, I can't vote everyone. My vote analysis gives us a shortlist of potential targets. That's all. We've still got to go further and press a case against suspicious individuals. (Which I've been doing.)
Let's say we take your revelation at face value, then the remaining suspects are Dariush and Toaster. They could be the scum team. ZZ could still yet be scum: he bandwagonned Ford and it's hard to get a read on his role's early play because Edos' activity dropped off the map.
Why do you think its suicidal? Or bold? It all comes down to either you believe me or not. I see it as a town aid because, nobody else knows whether I said the whole truth, the partial truth, or nothing of the truth - scum have to shoot to find out, and I am in no way voting for the people mentioned.
WIFOM > Scum.
PPE: Leafsnail
Anyway,
Quote
Let's say we take your revelation at face value, then the remaining suspects are Dariush and Toaster. They could be the scum team. ZZ could still yet be scum: he bandwagonned Ford and it's hard to get a read on his role's early play because Edos' activity dropped off the map.It seems poking at the replacee seems better than reading over Edos now.
Also, ZZ's reasons are...pretty much confusing as it is. Like I said, I'm unsure on his stand whether he's trolling or not: see him evade my questions. If my revelation has your face valued, then why are you still suspecting Toaster?
ZU
Thats an interesting claim. How do i know you arent covering for ds? pfpErr, Toaster - the guy who isn't under suspicion. His response would either nail us down and uncover us if I lied, or...something else that doesn't go along the lines of such.
DS
Yeah, unless people miss out on the past posts stated by those I didn't mention, then that would be...pretty much inconceivable. Even if we all get shot, there's MYLO = 4/2 , then LYLO = 3/2 wherein scum should play a really tense game to win there.It means that even with 4v2 the town can still lose by lynching the wrong people. And the "once the scumm off us" is that the scum may attempt to kill the three living masons (which includes myself) before any lynch happens.Tiruin: I think you failed to account for the possilbility of two town being lynched once the scum off us. But now it's out isn't it? If anyone has any questions for us masons, you better say them before we get scumkilled.What does this mean?
Wait, I thought day ended Friday? It was Friday last week.O_o
Its...err, a whole week. I'm sure Leafsnail wouldn't have slipped up...in a week. Also, what are your reads on everyone at the moment?
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Post by: Leafsnail on February 14, 2013, 11:41:05 pm
Post by: Hapah on February 14, 2013, 11:44:13 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 14, 2013, 11:46:03 pm
I left the wrong bit of text in from the previous votecount. The day ends in something like 20 hours.... :/
Post coming later btw
Is this connected to your earlier posts regarding NQT or just for voting purposes?along with Toaster, neither of you have voted yet.
Okay, let me fix that.
Notquitethere.
As far as Tiruin's claim, I'm going to sit and wait on that one. I think I get the point behind it, but I want to see what shakes out from his claim before I comment further.
Post by: zombie urist on February 15, 2013, 12:23:52 am
Also, I revise my read on ZoomZoll. He's probably an epicmafia player. :P
Post by: Hapah on February 15, 2013, 12:46:56 am
HapahBut scum don't have a real incentive to get on a bandwagon, unless one of their own is in danger, do they? I know as scum I try to stay off wagons if I can help it.NQT: Toaster has a point, you both did more or less policy lynch Tolyk D1. D2 is a different beast, though. And I'd watch reading too much into the D1 votes: since both parties that were on the chopping block ended up being town, scum really could have placed their vote anywhere D1.Yeah, you've got a good point. Hence why I specifically argued after D1 that there wasn't much that could be read at the time. However, the combination of D1 and D2 votes is telling, I think. Sure, scum could have voted wherever on either day. But, if we accept that it's plausible that scum had an incentive to bandwagon both days, then from the shortlist of people that lynched on both days, we've got a list of people that are more likely to be scum than other players.
(And Toaster has another point. You could stand to be a bit more direct in your accusations. Unless you actually are scum, in which case carry on I guess, lol)
I honestly thought I had been voting Toaster this entire time, and I'll put it there for now. I think we might be better served just lynching Obol, though. Since there's no night it isn't so big a deal, is it?
Post by: Tiruin on February 15, 2013, 05:03:36 am
Also, I revise my read on ZoomZoll. He's probably an epicmafia player. :PWhat is this I don't even [get what you're coming at :O]
So...epicmafia player translates to...?
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Its hard to not feel that the whole point of claiming mason was to induce WIFOM.Actually, its pretty easy to figure it out. Kill one, or lynch one = conclude the rest. Depends on how much you can trust the claimant, and whoever her/his supposed masonbuddies are :P
But yeah, could you explain how that is WIFOM? Good WIFOM or bad - from a town perspective (and please no WIFOM IS ALWAYS BAD, I'm after the reasoning, yours, to be exact.)
NQT:@Bolded portion: Its a case-to-case basis, bandwagons happen to either forward a wincon, or to generate suspicion...or what you just said.HapahBut scum don't have a real incentive to get on a bandwagon, unless one of their own is in danger, do they? I know as scum I try to stay off wagons if I can help it.NQT: Toaster has a point, you both did more or less policy lynch Tolyk D1. D2 is a different beast, though. And I'd watch reading too much into the D1 votes: since both parties that were on the chopping block ended up being town, scum really could have placed their vote anywhere D1.Yeah, you've got a good point. Hence why I specifically argued after D1 that there wasn't much that could be read at the time. However, the combination of D1 and D2 votes is telling, I think. Sure, scum could have voted wherever on either day. But, if we accept that it's plausible that scum had an incentive to bandwagon both days, then from the shortlist of people that lynched on both days, we've got a list of people that are more likely to be scum than other players.
(And Toaster has another point. You could stand to be a bit more direct in your accusations. Unless you actually are scum, in which case carry on I guess, lol)
I honestly thought I had been voting Toaster this entire time, and I'll put it there for now. I think we might be better served just lynching Obol, though. Since there's no night it isn't so big a deal, is it?
Though, you voted Toaster because...?
Quote
I think we might be better served just lynching Obol, though. Since there's no night it isn't so big a deal, is it?If that's the case, Obol just is a dead log in this lake of quarrels we're in. He can't do anything - and...
Quote from: Had to check his profile
Local Time:=/
February 15, 2013, 05:01:00 am
Last Active:
February 08, 2013, 09:47:36 pm
Err, Mod: Can you force a replacement in for obol? :/
Post by: Dariush on February 15, 2013, 06:37:07 am
snipOh NQT! Knee-jerky OMGUSes aren't going to bring us any further than the pointless mass-FoSes would. The 'SCUM BEHIND EVERY LYNCH' alarmist crap is not the best lead we've got. It's not a lead at all. It's merely an excuse made by you to explain you having put absolutely no effort into scumhunting whatsoever.
Seeking replacement for obolisk0430.Tiruin, art thou blind?
Well, now that my vote isn't doing any good on obolisk, I guess it's time to shift it to a certain somebody who is a living explanation as to why newbies shouldn't be allowed into 'big' games not only because they may not know the rules, but because they may lack basic mental capacity and be made of shit to such an extent as to be considered a certain subtype of a shit golem that is made of shit. I am talking, of course, about TZZ.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 15, 2013, 07:39:23 am
As for my position in the game...If you don't believe I am not a mafia you can go ahead and lynch me.You will just worsen your situations.
Tiruin,I have no idea how I "dodged" or ninja-d your questions.
Dariush,thanks again for your wonderful compliments.I do believe I am atleast 65% or more water though and I do think I have some bones,skin,meat and uh I guess random substances such as Ca;P;O and others.Oh by the way Dariush,did you wake up on the wrong side 'o' the pillow today?
How do you kiss your mother with a mouth like that?
I don't believe I missed any questions so far so I will call that a post for now.
Post by: Tiruin on February 15, 2013, 08:00:31 am
I know it resets after the lynch.No need to tell me again.Just not sure who to really vote yet.
As for my position in the game...If you don't believe I am not a mafia you can go ahead and lynch me.You will just worsen your situations.
Tiruin,I have no idea how I "dodged" or ninja-d your questions.
Dariush,thanks again for your wonderful compliments.I do believe I am atleast 65% or more water though and I do think I have some bones,skin,meat and uh I guess random substances such as Ca;P;O and others.Oh by the way Dariush,did you wake up on the wrong side 'o' the pillow today?
How do you kiss your mother with a mouth like that?
I don't believe I missed any questions so far so I will call that a post for now.
what are your reads on everyone? Also, what are you doing to forward your wincondition?
Here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4030626#msg4030626)
I mean, dude. Really. You should play in a BM, highly recommended.
If you can't get the above, let me simplify.
What is your take on everyone else? Do you see them as town, or as scum, or as a mason - and why, preferably in a list of names.
Post by: Toaster on February 15, 2013, 09:51:50 am
Tiruin: Yes, it's based on his post where he first tried to draw up his baseless "you voted town so you are scum" attack. It's never been valid and isn't valid here.
I didn't vote him at first because I wanted to see if he'd back off it or dig himself deeper.
Post by: notquitethere on February 15, 2013, 10:26:29 am
Hapah, you make a good point- scum indeed have an incentive to avoid being seen as bandwagoning. Also, policy lynching lurkers (like obo) is something I argued for before but the others weren't buying it. It is telling though that we've yet to have a proper majority lynch in this game, and I think that's playing into scum hands.
Tiruin, I get what you're saying about the wine in front of you, but what if the scum manipulate you into lynching townies and then take out the masons with impunity? It's a bold move but I think you might have lost us the game.
-pfp-
Post by: Teneb on February 15, 2013, 10:44:41 am
Tiruin, I get what you're saying about the wine in front of you, but what if the scum manipulate you into lynching townies and then take out the masons with impunity? It's a bold move but I think you might have lost us the game.
You complain about WIFOM, then do WIFOM yourself, in a single sentence no less.
Also, scum do have an intrest in lynching town. But that does not mean they are lynching town. It is completely possible for the town/masons to lynch another town while the scum merely watch that happen.
Lynching lurkers to have a majority lynch is not a good thing, since the scum can use that to more easily drive a lynch on town. One usually lynches a lurker because their inactivity is bad for the game, and lurking often encourages lurking.
Post by: Tiruin on February 15, 2013, 10:57:14 am
Tiruin, I get what you're saying about the wine in front of you, but what if the scum manipulate you into lynching townies and then take out the masons with impunity? It's a bold move but I think you might have lost us the game.Woah there buddy, who is this us?
What if scum manipulate me into lynching townies? Seems like you're buying my claim at face value there. But the thing is, it all depends on how either side manipulates either side, eh? What if, I lied and those I named are actually town, hmm?
I believe this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4032552;topicseen#msg4032552) needs a bit of answering too.
Quote
I get what you're saying about the wine in front of you, but what if the scum manipulate you into lynching townies and then take out the masons with impunity?I want to know what you get me saying about it. And I want to know why you try to insert the 'what if' instead of poking at what is already present, please.
Lynching lurkers to have a majority lynch is not a good thing, since the scum can use that to more easily drive a lynch on town. One usually lynches a lurker because their inactivity is bad for the game, and lurking often encourages lurking.*Tiruin loves [GM] for his ability to uphold activity through requesting replacements.
Sad thing is, obolisk isn't lurking but...err, held up by RL, I guess. (That, or he decided to quit as scum but that would be speaking ill of him >.>)
Post by: Leafsnail on February 15, 2013, 09:46:01 pm
Votecount (5 votes to lynch):
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Hapah:
TheZoomZoll: zombie urist, Tiruin, Dariush (3) <--- Lynched
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: Toaster (1)
zombie urist:
Toaster: notquitethere (1)
obolisk0430:
Not voting: obolisk0430, Hapah, TheZoomZoll (3)
Lynch scene will follow. I'll set the deadline to a bit more than a week away this time to avoid it creeping later and later into the night.
Seeking replacement for obolisk0430.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 15, 2013, 10:15:43 pm
February 16th, 2030
A man has been rushed to hospital following an attack on his home from a light weapons drone. He received gunshot wounds but his condition is believed to be stable.
While police have confirmed that one of their drones was used in the attack they denied that it was authorized. While the official theory involves a rogue drone commander there is widespread speculation that the attack was actually a result of hackers breaking in to police computers.
The man, known as "TheZoomZoll" online, was being investigated for hacking offenses. Police sources state that there is strong evidence to suggest that he is a "townie" in the group Pseudonym, but that charges against him will have to wait until after the internal review over the circumstances of the attack on his house.
TheZoomZoll has been lynched.
He was a townie.
Deadline is at 1pm GMT on February 23rd (note that the forum time will be used to determine if votes are before or after a deadline, but this is certainly correct to within an hour):
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130223T13&p0=136&msg=Day+4+deadline
With 8 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 16, 2013, 01:19:51 am
As for the story,let's say I was eating icecream when it happened.
I regret nothing!
Good luck to everyone!Break a leg!
Post by: notquitethere on February 16, 2013, 06:28:53 am
Tiruin - I don't know what game he's playing. If he's mason and completely telling the truth then we're doomed. Vote record suggests scum.
Toaster - Vote record leans scum, crypto-lurks with short posts.
Dariush - Vote record leans scum (or taking into account voting blocks, mason), post record show
ZU - Vote record suggests town. Legacy arguments from Ford might be worth considering as he was convinced ZU was scum.
Hapah - active playing but standoffish in votes or applying pressure. Essentially a null read, leaning mason.
Obo - Lurker up for replacement. Voted consistently for DS, initially with good reason then later out of laziness. Could be anything.
DS - used to think was scum due to his irrational witch hunt on Ford. Could be mason, if Tiruin is telling the truth.
Post by: Tiruin on February 16, 2013, 06:34:22 am
Following my patent pending multi-vote scum hunting technique we should turn our gaze now on Tiruin and Dariush. But first a general comment: we've lynched four of our own so far...So you ignore my question to you, then say...Four of our own.
Wat.
Quote
Tiruin - I don't know what game he's playing. If he's mason and completely telling the truth then we're doomed. Vote record suggests scum.Expound NQT. You were my next pick after TZZ, and before that, I had an inkling that TZZ was innocent - didn't see the subtle tell of a newbie town:
I know it resets after the lynch.No need to tell me again.Just not sure who to really vote yet.
As for my position in the game...If you don't believe I am not a mafia you can go ahead and lynch me.You will just worsen your situations.
Tiruin,I have no idea how I "dodged" or ninja-d your questions.
Dariush,thanks again for your wonderful compliments.I do believe I am atleast 65% or more water though and I do think I have some bones,skin,meat and uh I guess random substances such as Ca;P;O and others.Oh by the way Dariush,did you wake up on the wrong side 'o' the pillow today?
How do you kiss your mother with a mouth like that?
I don't believe I missed any questions so far so I will call that a post for now.
Also, if you're playing by vote record, how accurate do you think you are there, hmm?
And why do you keep on parroting like a doomsday prophet if OH GODS, MASONS!! WERE DOOMED.
Please NQT, answer my questions :/
Post by: Tiruin on February 16, 2013, 06:36:12 am
Regardless of that vote-thing you're talking about.
Care to tell your real reads on everyone? You know, those which aren't based on your supposed vote pattern? Why judge by vote, anyway? Are you using the flip of the person or...?
Post by: notquitethere on February 16, 2013, 06:45:25 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 16, 2013, 08:42:09 am
Also, yes you missed a question.
Why did you take my claim point blank? I believe it's pretty obvious where it was coming from - but something seems wrong here.
You keep on poking the "we're doomed" topic due to my claim but aren't doing anything for proving it. What else have you to say about it, NQT?
"Vote record suggests..."
How do these suggest anything?
Post by: Teneb on February 16, 2013, 09:20:54 am
Deadline passed. Final votecount:You completely forgot my vote, but I guess it didn't matter.
Votecount (5 votes to lynch):
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Hapah:
TheZoomZoll: zombie urist, Tiruin, Dariush (3) <--- Lynched
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: Toaster (1)
zombie urist:
Toaster: notquitethere (1)
obolisk0430:
Not voting: obolisk0430, Hapah, TheZoomZoll (3)
Lynch scene will follow. I'll set the deadline to a bit more than a week away this time to avoid it creeping later and later into the night.
Seeking replacement for obolisk0430.
Post by: Teneb on February 16, 2013, 09:26:38 am
To answer your question- I say 'us' as in Team Town. Is that not acceptable parlance? Also I clearly gave both my vote-based read and my post-based read for everyone. I'd like to hear yours. Was there another question I missed? Also, I'm not doom mongering: if you're telling the truth then we've lost, this should be clear to everyone.
The town has only already lost if everyone gives up and keep saying they already lost.
Also, you love saying my vote on Ford was irrational. How so? Quotes, evidence, examples. You are not going to convince anyone without those.
Stop hiding behind Ford's actions, cases and lynches and do something yourself.
Post by: notquitethere on February 16, 2013, 05:54:10 pm
First thing, my non-vote-based reads are alongside my vote reads. I've highlighted them in green for your convenience:
Following my patent pending multi-vote scum hunting technique we should turn our gaze now on Tiruin and Dariush. But first a general comment: we've lynched four of our own so far, which is a pretty lousy track record. I want to be a bit more careful before throwing around any accusations. There are eight of us left. I want everyone's reads on everyone else.
Tiruin - I don't know what game he's playing. If he's mason and completely telling the truth then we're doomed. Vote record suggests scum.
Toaster - Vote record leans scum, crypto-lurks with short posts.
Dariush - Vote record leans scum (or taking into account voting blocks, mason), post record showangrystrong scum hunting tendencies.
ZU - Vote record suggests town. Legacy arguments from Ford might be worth considering as he was convinced ZU was scum.
Hapah - active playing but standoffish in votes or applying pressure. Essentially a null read, leaning mason.
Obo - Lurker up for replacement. Voted consistently for DS, initially with good reason then later out of laziness. Could be anything.
DS - used to think was scum due to his irrational witch hunt on Ford. Could be mason, if Tiruin is telling the truth.
So, for the third time, can you give me your reads please?
Why did you take my claim point blank? I believe it's pretty obvious where it was coming from - but something seems wrong here.I'm not taking your claim at face value, I'm just saying hypothetically if you're telling the truth, it was a very bad move for you to make (which I'll explain for everyone below).
Quote
"Vote record suggests..."Ugh, do I really have to explain this point every time I post? OK one last time and I hope everyone is reading this because I'm not going to repeat myself.
How do these suggest anything?
1. Scum have an interest in lynching team town (i.e. masons and townies, hereafter referred to as 'the good guys')
2. Scum know who the good guys are.
From the lynch vote record we can see who has tried to lynch confirmed good guys. While most lynchers will be innocent, we can spot a pattern in the voting.
3. Only scum have an interest in consistently lynching good guys and the ability to know who is good to lynch
4. Consistently lynching good folk looks suspicious
5. Voting patterns show who looks suspicious
This method got it's first small confirmation with ZZ's lynch. Before I had voted for him, but then I went and had a look at the vote records and they showed that there were much more likely targets than ZZ and so I changed my vote. Low and behold, ZZ was town, as predicted.
I don't what crypto-psychological method you use for hunting scum but I've presented a concrete way to show suspicious activity.
If you don't agree with this method, then tell me how do you hunt scum then? Because all I'm seeing you do is hunting town.
DS
Also, you love saying my vote on Ford was irrational. How so? Quotes, evidence, examples. You are not going to convince anyone without those.That's a fair point I guess. Well, I had a look back and here we have some evidence:
Here you grill Ford over his (false) mason-claim. His serious point, that Tiruin is proving right now, is that a mason-claim is a null-tell. He made this pretty clear.On that note, I'm a mason. 8)You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?Still makes no sense why he'd joke around as a Townie.QuoteYeah, I can see you still don't get it.Here you claim your "I am a mason" wasn't a joke. Which you repeated quite a bit. Instead you claim you were making a serious point. Tell me, what point would that be.Quote from: Googlefa·ce·tiousI didn't choose that word arbitrarily to describe it. It was deliberately and blatantly inappropriate. But I was also making a point when I said.
Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.
It was not "just a joke". It was not a serious claim, but I was making a serious point.
I won't judge you overly for questioning Ford's motivations at the time, you weren't to know he was town. Maybe jumping on him wasn't so much irrational, but over-zealous. Ford was just an honest townie trying to defend what he saw as a ridiculous attack on someone who he read as a fellow townie. That was all back on page ten so I think we can all probably move on from there. I'm sorry for calling your vote irrational, I should have said 'misplaced' or 'wrongfooted'.
Quote
Stop hiding behind Ford's actions, cases and lynches and do something yourself.This is unfair: I've been the most active scumhunter out of everyone here by providing a logical basis for choosing targets. How do you think we should be hunting scum? Because however you've been doing it so far has been pretty lousy.
The danger for team town if Tiruin is telling the truth
By popular demand, here is a logically sound argument proving that if Tiruin is telling the truth then the good guys have lost:
Either we day-lynch masons, scum or townies. If Tiruin is telling the truth and people vote accordingly, we don't have the numbers to day-lynch masons, so we'll either try to lynch scum or townies. If we try to lynch scum, they will try to assassinate all the masons and if Tiruin is telling the truth, they will succeed. If they succeed, then it's a 3:2 town/scum game where scum decide ties: in this scenario, town are bound to lose. If we day-lynch town, then only masons will survive, and scum will kill the surviving masons. No matter who we try to lynch, if Tiruin is telling the truth and scum rely on this fact, then team town has lost.
Is that clearer now? I hope for all town's sake you're lying, Tiruin.
Post by: zombie urist on February 16, 2013, 06:46:36 pm
Tiruin: What is your read on Hapah and DS?
Hapah: What is you read on Tiruin and DS?
DS: What is your read on Hapah and Tiruin?
Post by: Tiruin on February 16, 2013, 07:41:41 pm
The danger for team town if Tiruin is telling the truth
By popular demand, here is a logically sound argument proving that if Tiruin is telling the truth then the good guys have lost:
Either we day-lynch masons, scum or townies. If Tiruin is telling the truth and people vote accordingly, we don't have the numbers to day-lynch masons, so we'll either try to lynch scum or townies. If we try to lynch scum, they will try to assassinate all the masons and if Tiruin is telling the truth, they will succeed. If they succeed, then it's a 3:2 town/scum game where scum decide ties: in this scenario, town are bound to lose. If we day-lynch town, then only masons will survive, and scum will kill the surviving masons. No matter who we try to lynch, if Tiruin is telling the truth and scum rely on this fact, then team town has lost.
Is that clearer now? I hope for all town's sake you're lying, Tiruin.
For purposes of brevity, I'll be focusing on this part. NQT, it seems you've either little faith in the town - without a powerrole to catch scum - or are putting in the idea that scum can easily trick town into lynching innocents. The latter insinuates that either you're scum, and are being honest in warning that your buddy is a really competent player, or...you're actually confused on who is scum and who is not, meaning you're sincerely worried that the remaining scum are one of the vets. The experienced ones.
Now, look at the chocolate colored part (yes it is literally coded as 'chocolate' :P), I want to know exactly why you're poking at perfect success in that matter.
Quote
If they succeed, then it's a 3:2 town/scum game where scum decide ties: in this scenario, town are bound to lose. If we day-lynch town, then only masons will survive, and scum will kill the surviving masons. No matter who we try to lynch, if Tiruin is telling the truth and scum rely on this fact, then team town has lost.Sentences one and two were rational, fluid in thinking. Then we head to sentence 3.
So tell me, how confirmed are you over your reads that those people are scum (ie no vote)
Quote
Tiruin - I don't know what game he's playing. If he's mason and completely telling the truth then we're doomed. Vote record suggests scum.Given that, what are your reads now that the people are cleared from being a mason?
Toaster - Vote record leans scum, crypto-lurks with short posts.
Dariush - Vote record leans scum (or taking into account voting blocks, mason), post record show angry strong scum hunting tendencies. Not a mason.
ZU - Vote record suggests town. Legacy arguments from Ford might be worth considering as he was convinced ZU was scum.
Hapah - active playing but standoffish in votes or applying pressure. Essentially a null read, leaning mason. Not a mason.
Obo - Lurker up for replacement. Voted consistently for DS, initially with good reason then later out of laziness. Could be anything. Darn'it someone replace him already!
DS - used to think was scum due to his irrational witch hunt on Ford. Could be mason, if Tiruin is telling the truth.
Next, your earlier assumption.
Quote
I'm not taking your claim at face value, I'm just saying hypothetically if you're telling the truth, it was a very bad move for you to make (which I'll explain for everyone below).Quote"Vote record suggests..."
How do these suggest anything?
Ugh, do I really have to explain this point every time I post? OK one last time and I hope everyone is reading this because I'm not going to repeat myself.
1. Scum have an interest in lynching team town (i.e. masons and townies, hereafter referred to as 'the good guys')
2. Scum know who the good guys are.
Firstly, on your two postulates above on scum:
1 > is obvious.
2 > does not know whether their target is town or mason - this does clarify you going after votes, of course, as the lynch is a 'safer alternative'.
Now let me debunk that because your other ideas came across as...faulty.
Quote
From the lynch vote record we can see who has tried to lynch confirmed good guys. While most lynchers will be innocent, we can spot a pattern in the voting."Confirmed good guys".
3. Only scum have an interest in consistently lynching good guys and the ability to know who is good to lynch
4. Consistently lynching good folk looks suspicious
5. Voting patterns show who looks suspicious
This method got it's first small confirmation with ZZ's lynch. Before I had voted for him, but then I went and had a look at the vote records and they showed that there were much more likely targets than ZZ and so I changed my vote. Low and behold, ZZ was town, as predicted.
[...]
If you don't agree with this method, then tell me how do you hunt scum then? Because all I'm seeing you do is hunting town.
This screams as you subtly being scum for me. Reason is, it seems you're acting this in a way that relates to the flip, but you're stating it as if their flip confirms those who voted them to be scummier. Its like you know they're town, and have no other way of persuading the rest other than relying on vote patterns. I agree with #3 & 5 - #4 is up to debate wherein being suspicious lies with the essence of the lyncher's posts.
Let me clarify this first. Leafsnail, you messed up the vote count :/ NQT was voting for Dariush and not Toaster. Here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4032154#msg4032154)
So now you say that there are more likely targets of being scum instead of "TZZ" looks town, right? Also, since you put in the idea 'if I was lying', why do you hesitate to give in that situation? If I was lying, what would be the most reasonable scenario then, for you?
Quote
If you don't agree with this method, then tell me how do you hunt scum then? Because all I'm seeing you do is hunting town.Yeah, this goes with the above statements. Your last sentence really rings on my scum-dar. It can go both ways: You're going at that idea from after the roleflip, or you're insinuating that those people are town. I was going after them before I knew their alignment.
Yes, I do agree that TZZ's lynch was wrong (and also that he's using a translator...) but I've only seen the mistake - not by the flip - but what I missed in his post (I linked it in my post above) as I was more confused on him but thought he was scum instead due to his...antics.
It's not nice to respond to other's posts with pictures, IMO. Those can carry a thousand more connotations than words. This is for you TZZ.
I didn't say I don't agree with that method (or if I did, then perhaps I should've explained more, it was related to how you presented it), but what I'm saying is that while you do put a presentable case (I'm no psychologist despite taking the subjects, so apologies if I come across as...err, condescending?) I see points in your case that make you look scum.
Though, you haven't gone for the easy lynch (sifting thru 30 pages of the normal forum format >.>), nor have you tried to go and undermine a person just for lynching him. But for your explanations, they seem sincere and pretty much reasonable, despite my intuition feeling...off with them, but not in the way that says scum despite what I've written earlier [confusion and the "what is he going on with" feeling - I don't know the term for this]. Mostly, when this happens, I'm wrong and my intuition is right. I just hope this time that's right, so damned be I if you're scum. Unvote
Reads coming up in the next post.
Oh, and I hunt scum via the process of looking into their posts. While the vote pattern seems to be (or is, to others) a valid scumhunting tool, I've never relied on it much. Just applying pressure to those I feel are scum, then going on that tangent.
Post by: Hapah on February 18, 2013, 10:22:41 am
I'm going to continue being very one-note and vote Toaster. Though apparently no-one sees what I see?
Post by: notquitethere on February 18, 2013, 10:34:37 am
Post by: Hapah on February 18, 2013, 10:51:56 am
Post by: Dariush on February 18, 2013, 11:06:08 am
I think Dariush is a scum. He's been focusing on the noobs pretty much the entire time.How many times do I have to repeat this? I vote whomever I consider scum. If they are merely scummy noobs pulling off scummy shit, too bad for them. If you (yes, specifically you, ZU) have any problem with my cases, mention them when I am voting on them and not as an offhand 'lol his cases are bad ima vote him' after not addressing me like a single time during the entire game.
Also his vote on TZZ had bad reasons.Same here. If you thought my reasons were bad, why are you mentioning it only after TZZ got lynched? Afraid to defend someone who hasn't flipped town, ZU?
Tiruin: What is your read on Hapah and DS?And you finish off with a series of the laziest-ass questions possible. Yeah, you're pretty much lazy scum. So why am I not voting you?
Hapah: What is you read on Tiruin and DS?
DS: What is your read on Hapah and Tiruin?
Because all this talk about Toaster brought me back to his list of 'who could hammer Ford'. Out of four people listed there, only DS and NQT remain. While I am definitely suspicious of NQT, with every passing post he begins to press less on my 'scum' and more on my 'town newbie who is trying really hard and kinda failing' sensors. DS, on the other hand, has been doing a whole load of nothing ever since... uh, I don't know. I go back and back through the thread looking at his posts and find answering questions, weakly pushing NQT and speculation and nothing more.
PPE:
Toaster's vote record suggests possible scum, as I'd argued before, and we haven't heard very much from that shiny kitchen appliance of late. What do you specifically see, Hapah?Welp, guess I was too fast in saying you're pushing the town pedals. Explain this bandwagon and referring to the vote record, which has been thoroughly proven to be a load of bullshit, NQT.
Post by: notquitethere on February 18, 2013, 11:23:07 am
(Not to speculate into scum hands, but that said, if Tiruin is half-lying then your consistent block-voting with him could indicate that you're both masons.)
Thanks for the link, Hapah, trawling through 35 or so pages to find an argument can be a bit of hassle. I can see why you'd want to move away from the meta-discussion, so is your suspicion now mostly based on the fact Toaster didn't try to clear up "misconceptions or draw any new conclusions"?
Post by: Toaster on February 18, 2013, 11:33:38 am
For the time, though, I still say NQT is scum for the same reasons.
By its metric, you're pretty damn suspicious Dariush, having a 100% mislynch record. You've either got bad luck, bad judgement or you're scum.
PS here he is doing it again.
Post by: Dariush on February 18, 2013, 11:43:45 am
100% mislynch recordIt would be pretty weird if I had anything but in a game where no scum have been lynched so far. Don't you agree, NQT?
PPE'd by Toaster.
Post by: notquitethere on February 18, 2013, 11:52:32 am
I can see how you might have misinterpreted that line. What I meant is that at the end of every day, your vote has gone on the main lynch target and every time that person has been innocent. This is true for Tiruin as well. Everyone else's final vote of the day has been for other people that didn't get lynched on at least one of the days. Now, I'm not accusing you outright, because you'd have to be a pretty dumb scum to be that obvious.100% mislynch recordIt would be pretty weird if I had anything but in a game where no scum have been lynched so far. Don't you agree, NQT?
Post by: zombie urist on February 18, 2013, 12:54:46 pm
Also I have two midterms next week.
Post by: notquitethere on February 18, 2013, 01:17:29 pm
Post by: TolyK on February 18, 2013, 01:38:14 pm
the term 'midterm' is an American term and Americans are not known for their dizzying intellect>.>
Post by: Teneb on February 18, 2013, 02:35:16 pm
Stereotypes are bad because they make dead players post when they shouldn't.the term 'midterm' is an American term and Americans are not known for their dizzying intellect>.>
ZU: What do you hope to gain by ask people how their teammates read to them?
Dariush: How could I be in a position to hammer Ford, as you mention in a previous post, if I was voting him for most of the game?
Post by: zombie urist on February 20, 2013, 12:54:04 am
I hope to find out if you really are teammates.
Also votecount?
Post by: notquitethere on February 20, 2013, 08:22:41 am
Post by: Hapah on February 20, 2013, 06:53:56 pm
Hope this games not dead.It's not dead, but it will be hard to keep any real level of interest. No chat, no powers, long days...definitely look to shorten the days in any future iterations.
I hope to find out if you really are teammates.
Also votecount?
Post by: Leafsnail on February 20, 2013, 08:40:32 pm
Deadline:
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130223T13&p0=136&msg=Day+4+deadline
With 8 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.
Votecount (5 votes to lynch):
Dariush: zombie urist (1)
Tiruin:
Hapah:
Deathsword:
notquitethere: Tiruin, Toaster, Dariush (3)
zombie urist:
Toaster: notquitethere, Hapah (2)
obolisk0430:
Not voting: obolisk0430, Deathsword (2)
Post by: Tiruin on February 21, 2013, 06:31:15 am
I unvoted for NQT
Unvotein that big post there.
Currently strained for time and my reads are
Dariush - I'm pretty unsure, but I believe he's linked with Toaster as the last two remaining scumbuddies judging by how the interactions of their votes have linked up. Sure, NQT may seem like scum for basing all his shtuff on philosophical nature, but I'm not reading much on the philosopher at the moment (also if NQT is scum then that's one darn way of persuading me >.>). Still, mostly a gut feeling.QuoteTiruin - I don't know what game he's playing. If he's mason and completely telling the truth then we're doomed. Vote record suggests scum.
Toaster - Vote record leans scum, crypto-lurks with short posts.
Dariush - Vote record leans scum (or taking into account voting blocks, mason), post record showangrystrong scum hunting tendencies.
ZU - Vote record suggests town. Legacy arguments from Ford might be worth considering as he was convinced ZU was scum.
Hapah - active playing but standoffish in votes or applying pressure. Essentially a null read, leaning mason.
Obo - Lurker up for replacement. Voted consistently for DS, initially with good reason then later out of laziness. Could be anything.
DS - used to think was scum due to his irrational witch hunt on Ford. Could be mason, if Tiruin is telling the truth.
So, for the third time, can you give me your reads please?
notquitethere - null read. Leaning town. I'm confused on whether he is town or not due to his philosophical attitude. While it doesn't scream 'WIFOM' or scum to me, it seems he's trying to explain other's statements in a holistic manner in order to...err, do his own kind of scumhunting. Lacks the pressure on his votes though as I see little assertion with it (not saying assertion = scummy, but lacking pressure is what I'm pointing at.)
zombie urist - I've seen him to state opinions muchly, needing a prod or two in order to ask him why he said so or the reason behind his statements so I'm reading mostly of a null-town sort. He has certain conclusive points which say that he's sincere in his scumhunting, not aiming to subtly trip others up and using their words against them.
obolisk0430 - Before his...2 week disappearance (Yeah...>_<), he reads scum to me due to the wording of his posts, the essence behind his votes and his reasoning in judgement. That one post where he used expletives in trying to hurry me up didn't help, but I stand by my idea here. If there isn't any replacement, my vote goes to him (for the time being, of course :/)
Yes I've labelled them to the stereotypical colors for those who want a tl;dr. Yes there is a chocolate color - this means scummy.
PPE: Just realized he's up for replacement :/ Added to the last sentence
Post by: Dariush on February 21, 2013, 10:50:11 am
Dariush: How could I be in a position to hammer Ford, as you mention in a previous post, if I was voting him for most of the game?Scumhammer in case of the tie.
Tiruin, so why are you voting for obolisk even after the grand realisation?
...Not really anything else to say here. Can we get a shorten or something?
Post by: zombie urist on February 21, 2013, 10:59:14 am
Post by: Vector on February 22, 2013, 01:59:46 am
I'm going to replace in for Toaster, but I want to be clear of two things:
a. I will not be able to read through the game until Friday night, at which point I will kick this shit up a notch
b. I am a math major in my final semester and I work very hard. I am not going to sit here and post all day, but I will post every day, and it will be good quality stuff. The meta established for me two years ago came through while I was severely mentally ill. Please do not expect me to play the exact same way, because I am really tired of arguing that shit every time I come back.
That said, let's have a good time.
Post by: Tiruin on February 22, 2013, 06:44:33 am
Howdy, Vector here to save the day.
I'm going to replace in for Toaster, but I want to be clear of two things:
a. I will not be able to read through the game until Friday night, at which point I will kick this shit up a notch
b. I am a math major in my final semester and I work very hard. I am not going to sit here and post all day, but I will post every day, and it will be good quality stuff. The meta established for me two years ago came through while I was severely mentally ill. Please do not expect me to play the exact same way, because I am really tired of arguing that shit every time I come back.
That said, let's have a good time.
Spoiler: Warning: :D Ahead. (click to show/hide)
Tiruin: You do know you've tied the vote right?Argh. I did unvote on NQT though and...riight. Dariush it is then.
Post by: Dariush on February 22, 2013, 06:57:44 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 22, 2013, 07:08:55 am
So now you went ahead and made it a three-way tie, after a vote on me for no reason other than some convoluted not-really-an-explanation about being 'linked' with Toaster. Combined with jumping off NQT vote right when it looked like he might be lynched, and you swiftly jump to the top of the scum-o-meter. Now if NQT flips scum, there really won't be any doubt that you're his ally.I've already explained why I believe NQT is town, and I notice you said something about being linked with Toaster.
Where did I say anything about that link?
Post by: Dariush on February 22, 2013, 07:12:27 am
Dariush - I'm pretty unsure, but I believe he's linked with Toaster as the last two remaining scumbuddies judging by how the interactions of their votes have linked up.So yes, of course now I'm going to believe that you just conveniently forgot the only reasons you gave for voting me, which conveniently makes it a three-way tie, thus allowing you and your scumbuddy NQT to hammer whomever you want. Sure.
Post by: Tiruin on February 22, 2013, 07:25:52 am
That was an assumption. Not a fact or me being narrow in my view on you.Dariush - I'm pretty unsure, but I believe he's linked with Toaster as the last two remaining scumbuddies judging by how the interactions of their votes have linked up.So yes, of course now I'm going to believe that you just conveniently forgot the only reasons you gave for voting me, which conveniently makes it a three-way tie, thus allowing you and your scumbuddy NQT to hammer whomever you want. Sure.
Now here I am seeing your reaction. You're being all jumpy around, or snarkastic.
But seeing your vote and how you used it before hitting NQT:
100% mislynch recordIt would be pretty weird if I had anything but in a game where no scum have been lynched so far. Don't you agree, NQT?
PPE'd by Toaster.
[You voted DS here with pretty much better reasons that I can infer from you countering NQT's argument with...his own thinking. Without backing it up.]
Post by: Leafsnail on February 22, 2013, 08:06:41 am
Post by: notquitethere on February 22, 2013, 08:09:53 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 22, 2013, 08:13:57 am
Vector has replaced obolisk0430.Aw come on.
Well, at least that sets this at an all activity game :D
...Toaster: I notice your post has been on NQT
Answered byIs this connected to your earlier posts regarding NQT or just for voting purposes?along with Toaster, neither of you have voted yet.
Okay, let me fix that.
Notquitethere.
PFPSo if you've the time to answer, I believe he's been giving his statement (and do agree with you there) but also left enough space to consider other's arguments. He didn't state it like it was a law or a rule, though.
Tiruin: Yes, it's based on his post where he first tried to draw up his baseless "you voted town so you are scum" attack. It's never been valid and isn't valid here.
I didn't vote him at first because I wanted to see if he'd back off it or dig himself deeper.
NQT: What do you have to say for that?
PPE: NQT. Darn that rhymes.
Post by: Teneb on February 22, 2013, 01:11:58 pm
Post by: zombie urist on February 22, 2013, 01:33:23 pm
Post by: Dariush on February 22, 2013, 01:36:45 pm
Dariush, tell me, why do you state that someone is scum, vote them, and then shift your vote to the first person to attack you (NQT in this case)?I've explained it already. His '100% mislynch record' argument, combined with the fact that among him and you at least one is guaranteed scum was sufficient grounds for a vote.
Your 11th hour vote change for a reason that happened like a week ago is noted.
PPE: NQT. Darn that rhymes....what rhymes with what?
Post by: Tiruin on February 22, 2013, 04:22:03 pm
Hi Vector! I missed you!But you had a good case on DS, and about his argument, sure it may be fallible and it may be him touting it as a defense, but you stated this:Dariush, tell me, why do you state that someone is scum, vote them, and then shift your vote to the first person to attack you (NQT in this case)?I've explained it already. His '100% mislynch record' argument, combined with the fact that among him and you at least one is guaranteed scum was sufficient grounds for a vote.
Quote
While I am definitely suspicious of NQT, with every passing post he begins to press less on my 'scum' and more on my 'town newbie who is trying really hard and kinda failing' sensors. DS, on the other hand, has been doing a whole load of nothing ever since... uh, I don't know. I go back and back through the thread looking at his posts and find answering questions, weakly pushing NQT and speculation and nothing more.So...his only post between that (refer to quote linked above) was this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4040605#msg4040605), and you seem to be agitated thoroughly by that.
Your reply? It could've been to rebuke him. To right what he said about you and your 100% mislynch record, to state verbatim. His 100% mislynch theory is but a theory anyway - he didn't have any conclusive evidence behind it (I mean, yeah. For example: I've got a 100% mislynch record, as does everyone else - did you poke on the illogical consequences of mentioning such?)
No. You didn't explain what was behind your vote or why NQT deserves it. You could've done such to the newbie, why aren't you reasoning with him? Or at least straightening it out.100% mislynch recordIt would be pretty weird if I had anything but in a game where no scum have been lynched so far. Don't you agree, NQT?
PPE'd by Toaster.
The acronym letteringPPE: NQT. Darn that rhymes....what rhymes with what?
Post by: Leafsnail on February 22, 2013, 10:53:50 pm
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130223T13&p0=136&msg=Day+4+deadline
Votecount will follow shortly.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 22, 2013, 10:56:32 pm
Dariush: zombie urist, Tiruin, Deathsword (3) <-- L-2
Tiruin:
Hapah:
Deathsword:
notquitethere: Toaster, Dariush (2)
zombie urist:
Toaster: notquitethere, Hapah (2)
Not voting:
Post by: Vector on February 22, 2013, 11:21:57 pm
I'm doing my read.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 22, 2013, 11:26:05 pm
Post by: Vector on February 22, 2013, 11:41:21 pm
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 12:24:50 am
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 01:14:38 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 23, 2013, 01:31:39 am
Good morning, Tiruin. Are you ready to die?Morning to you too Vector. Yes I am. What's up?
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 01:47:28 am
You know, there's a funny thing about being scum. There's two classes that most scum players fall into: naive scum, and deconstructionist scum. Naive scum is easy to lead around by the nose, because naive scum is untrained and stupid. Naive scum jumps.
And deconstructionist scum does exactly the opposite of naive scum. Deconstructionist scum is never nervous, never worried. It never OMGUSes, even when someone does something suspicious. It's inert. It faffs around. Its fear translates to a lack of direction, as it remembers the long, long list of things that Town Mustn't Do. It votes lurkers. It votes people who need replacements. It spews stupid, empty questions and it crumples into mush when prodded. Its lists of scummy players tend to be mostly green, its few suspicions vague.
Town, on the other hand, worries a lot. Town worries about things like getting lynched and wasting the day, and about things like getting a replacement called in from one of the most talented scum players to ever visit this forum. It's just that town understands that there's a simple way to get out of that fear, and it presses through it. It moves forwards. It attacks and questions.
So here's what I want to know:
You thought Obolisk was scum when Obolisk wasn't here to talk. Then you bandwagoned--to a triple-tie!--when you found the vote was unpopular. Now I'm here, and you're cold as ice when I vote you without reason.
Why didn't you want Obolisk to be replaced, and why aren't you more afraid?
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 02:21:17 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 23, 2013, 02:44:12 am
Why didn't you want Obolisk to be replaced, and why aren't you more afraid?I see a misunderstanding with what you see as my preferences. (Also, more afraid? Err...of you? O_o I'm not more afraid because activity is coming back into the game, I guess.)
By this, I was going after the Vector > Toaster point. You've replaced obolisk, but before that you stated you were replacing Toaster. Now, as far as stating replacements go, I was thinking that the GM has already told you who you'd be replacing before any posts get into the game.Vector has replaced obolisk0430.Aw come on.
It was more of an expression than anything else.
Quote
You thought Obolisk was scum when Obolisk wasn't here to talk. Then you bandwagoned--to a triple-tie!--when you found the vote was unpopular. Now I'm here, and you're cold as ice when I vote you without reason.I see you're poking at how I answered. Nah, not cold as ice with your vote, just curious at your reasoning behind it. If you meant by how I was so comfortable with death - I am - hence the reason I named the masons.
And no, obolisk was able to talk when I thought him as scum. Problem was, the conversation was broken and then it came into inactivity.
Bandwagon - I think not. My vote on NQT was mostly due to confusion and confusion based on how he was trying to persuade on a topic or viewpoint, specifically how he views the 100% mislynch part though up until the unvote, it was wavering.
Though, I believe you're poking assertively there in your first post. Why so?
Also, scunting hum?
PPE: I'm currently busy working on multiple school projects >.> Finals is argh. Especially in a medical course. Sorry for the wait.
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 02:48:21 am
I want to know why you're voting Dariush right now, and why you aren't afraid of death. You've made it clear that you aren't worried about dying, sure, but you haven't explained why this doesn't worry you. Please explain--at your leisure, though I'd appreciate some hurry, seeing as we're pushing the deadline.
Post by: Tiruin on February 23, 2013, 02:58:08 am
I want to know why you're voting Dariush right now, and why you aren't afraid of death. You've made it clear that you aren't worried about dying, sure, but you haven't explained why this doesn't worry you. Please explain--at your leisure, though I'd appreciate some hurry, seeing as we're pushing the deadline.Well, voting Dariush, I saw his post as strange. Almost against his own words, contradictory in the least. He stated NQT was a flailing newbie town, which I can somewhat agree given how NQT dissects his cases but then shifts his vote from DS to NQT based on...
NQT's reply is given there, but other than re-address the matter, Dariush vanished from the radar and didn't press it.I can see how you might have misinterpreted that line. What I meant is that at the end of every day, your vote has gone on the main lynch target and every time that person has been innocent. This is true for Tiruin as well. Everyone else's final vote of the day has been for other people that didn't get lynched on at least one of the days. Now, I'm not accusing you outright, because you'd have to be a pretty dumb scum to be that obvious.100% mislynch recordIt would be pretty weird if I had anything but in a game where no scum have been lynched so far. Don't you agree, NQT?
He didn't press it at all but chose to go at me when I voted him. Another factor which struck me as weird (a meta one though I'd just mention it) was that Dariush usually uses expletives in trying to assert pressure. He didn't do that against NQT, much.
Now, things on why dying doesn't worry me. One is, my death marks the others I've associated with as town - mason or not, those are the people I mostly believe as Town-ish.
Also I notice you've outlined several variables. Specifically the attitudes of players in a category of playstyle. Why'd you do such?
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 03:15:24 am
Tiruin, I'm poking notquitethere in my first post because he's been spewing scumtells since the beginning of the game. As for my outline--what do you think? Why do you ask?
Post by: Tiruin on February 23, 2013, 03:20:12 am
As for my outline--what do you think? Why do you ask?Well, most of my case on obolisk was based on his replies - you're a whole different obolisk ( :P just saying ), but the statements you said there could very well be some sort of subtle labeling justified in the matter that you're trying to follow the town portion.
I do like it however, though what are your general reads on everyone?
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 03:24:45 am
Post by: notquitethere on February 23, 2013, 03:46:25 am
NotQuiteThere: How long have you been playing mafia, and how many times have you played scum? Do you usually win as scum?Sorry to say I've only completed a BM, where I was the cop and killed on the first night. I've only been playing Mafia a couple of months.
I can see why you'd vote Dariush. On votes alone he has a fairly scummy read: enough people have voted for him to make mason seem unlikely, and he's consistently urged lynches on people later proven to be mason or town (this latter point is true of Tiruin as well). This is enough to look suspicious, but shucks, he could be town with bad luck chosing targets. So give me another good reason why we should lynch him.
(As for us being scumbuddies, that's ridiculous: everyone knows Deathsword is my scumbuddy.)
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 03:58:26 am
I'm not voting on his vote and success patterns, you silly person. You're the only one who's relying on those metrics, and the only reason why you think those would convince anyone is thanks to a lack of experience.
As I said, I'm voting him for
a. expediency
b. meta
c. lurking
d. hypocrisy
e. weak reasoning
Reasons why we should lynch him are b-e in combination. Dariush is a smart, vicious guy. All of this is scummy on its own, but given the way he plays most of the time it's certifiably lynchworthy.
What I didn't say is that (f.) lynching him also yields the most information from the possibly-scum pool, so there's that, too.
Post by: Tiruin on February 23, 2013, 04:06:49 am
NQT: please answer the statement addressed to you here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4050811#msg4050811)
VectorI already told you, Dariush isn't a mason. And no, DS isn't your scumbuddy, curse you for using a brick joke.NotQuiteThere: How long have you been playing mafia, and how many times have you played scum? Do you usually win as scum?Sorry to say I've only completed a BM, where I was the cop and killed on the first night. I've only been playing Mafia a couple of months.
I can see why you'd vote Dariush. On votes alone he has a fairly scummy read: enough people have voted for him to make mason seem unlikely, and he's consistently urged lynches on people later proven to be mason or town (this latter point is true of Tiruin as well). This is enough to look suspicious, but shucks, he could be town with bad luck chosing targets. So give me another good reason why we should lynch him.
(As for us being scumbuddies, that's ridiculous: everyone knows Deathsword is my scumbuddy.)
Also...wait what? You're dropping your theory and turn with the bolded part?
What shifted your attitude from this one? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4040605#msg4040605)
Post by: notquitethere on February 23, 2013, 04:26:31 am
So if you've the time to answer, I believe he's been giving his statement (and do agree with you there) but also left enough space to consider other's arguments. He didn't state it like it was a law or a rule, though.Say for what? What are you asking me? If you're asking me whether you gave a fair assessment of my position, sure: I didn't say it was a rule or law.
NQT: What do you have to say for that?
Also...wait what? You're dropping your theory and turn with the bolded part?No, I just know that despite it being a sensible way to proceed, other people don't find looking at voting patterns as compelling evidence as I do. I wanted to know what Vector thought, and now I do.
What shifted your attitude from this one? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4040605#msg4040605)
Vector
Okay, I can see your general reasons. What kind of information would it give us if Dariush turns out to be town?
Post by: Tiruin on February 23, 2013, 05:26:34 am
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 12:33:56 pm
No, I just know that despite it being a sensible way to proceed, other people don't find looking at voting patterns as compelling evidence as I do. I wanted to know what Vector thought, and now I do.
I have never seen anyone succeed using your method in this context. Now, that does not mean that it is worthless, but the problem is that it's a method requiring such a quantity of asymmetrical data in order to resolve on scum that what you end up doing is sitting back and lynching lurkers because "you know they're anti-town" rather than gathering scumtells--heuristical tips that would help you narrow down the information in the voting patterns.
You don't need to kill players who are failing to help the town. You need to find and kill scum, and that's always your first and last priority.
Furthermore, any player with experience will understand this method of play as profoundly unhelpful, because it's an ultimately safe, unrisky method. Scum can employ it just as easily as town, and it provides so little information in the beginning game that getting down to LYLO is virtually guaranteed. You provide no telling data about yourself, and you don't dig up any useful dirt on others. Yes, it is objectively true information, but it is only slightly better than shitposting and lurking.
Indeed, keep tabs on this stuff for yourself, but only publish results when you have conclusive evidence, or are trying to pull it out of people. This game is an information game, but not the one you think it is.
Vector
Okay, I can see your general reasons. What kind of information would it give us if Dariush turns out to be town?
It will tell me a lot about you and the collection of folks voting Dariush.
I thought you had experience elsewhere?
Oh, and please answer this.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 23, 2013, 03:57:41 pm
February 23rd, 2030
A man has been arrested after making a post online confessing to being a member of Pseudonym, including evidence to accompany this. The post was made in a dedicated discussion space for active police officers.
According to police the man, known as "Dariush" online, did not attempt to resist arrest. He did however say that he was a "mafia goon", and that if the final mafia goon were to fall Pseudonym would likely return to its original strength.
A police chief has dismissed this claim as "laughable", pointing out that half of the members of Pseudonym are now believed to be in custody. He also confirmed that court cases against 7 alleged hackers including Dariush are intended to begin in the coming months.
Dariush has been doxxed.
He was a mafia goon.
The votecount has now been reset, and the deadline is in a week's time.
With 7 alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.
Post by: Dariush on February 23, 2013, 04:13:19 pm
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 04:23:50 pm
Notquitethere is a perfect example of deconstructionist scum. Hang!
Post by: notquitethere on February 23, 2013, 07:55:54 pm
Right, I'm convinced.I appreciate the compliment- it's nice to know I purportedly perfect at something, but are you mad brother? Have you even read the thread? I was arguing that Dariush was most likely scum! But congrats are in order: you pegged Dariush for what exactly what he was. This gives me +points in your favour.
Notquitethere is a perfect example of deconstructionist scum. Hang!
I'm not going to OMGUS, because, vote patterns taken into account, you're probably town. Highly mistaken, but probably town.
DS, it's a new day: who do you think is most likely scum?
Toaster- am I mistaken, but were you blind to Dariush's potential maleficence?
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 09:22:42 pm
Post by: Vector on February 23, 2013, 09:48:34 pm
What are your reads? What clears ZombieUrist and Deathsword?
Post by: Tiruin on February 23, 2013, 11:34:39 pm
Lastly,
Toaster- am I mistaken, but were you blind to Dariush's potential maleficence?What in the world are you acting upon here? Reason behind this vote, and how you came up with it. How Dariush matters with this.
Post by: Toaster on February 23, 2013, 11:37:26 pm
Post by: zombie urist on February 24, 2013, 12:14:50 am
Anyways...
Dariush was voting NQT and we know Dariush was scum. Dariush never addressed NQT after the vote up until the time he died. I'm still not sure what to make of this.
Toaster's meta-case on Ford was IMO mostly BS, especially now that Ford flipped town. I dunno.
I'm still slightly worried that Vector is the last scum. I don't like how you're relying a lot on meta, especially since you've been absent for such a long time. (and claim that your own meta has changed)
Spoiler: current list of players (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on February 24, 2013, 12:35:01 am
I checked some of Dariush's recent behavior before attacking him on meta grounds, just to make sure he was behaving the same. As he does seem to be, I saw no harm in making a meta argument.
However, I haven't been providing quotations because I was reaction testing. I was hoping I'd find some trigger-happy last scum to vote me for the little holes I left (not answering a couple of questions, being a little floppy, generally screwing around with little cited evidence), but no one's taken the bait. The whole "scum-types" thing was simultaneously an intimidation tactic (trying to see if I could pull a Wuba--that sort of thing always worked really well on me) and an attempt to leave something I've found useful for posterity. Yeah, I know, I know.
I'm guessing current scum strategy will be (if it's an option) to lurk until LYLO.
Anyway, pretty much the minute I started reading NQTs posts I thought he was scum. He spewed out loads and loads of questions during RVS with almost no pressure, stays on the periphery and just... I dunno, my read isn't very stable. Part of me wants to say he's just a guy who isn't used to how things are done here, and part of me sees nontrivial amounts of the mistakes I nearly always make when I play scum (which is why I keep on asking him how much experience he has).
I'll make a big case once I have a better read on everyone who's currently playing, but for now the question dodging and all that crap leave me thinking Dariush was just distancing and NQT is our guy.
Deathsword and Habah, what do you think of the proceedings? Who is the last scumbucket?
Post by: Tiruin on February 24, 2013, 01:49:05 am
The whole "scum-types" thing was simultaneously an intimidation tactic (trying to see if I could pull a Wuba--that sort of thing always worked really well on me) and an attempt to leave something I've found useful for posterity. Yeah, I know, I know.TBH, this part was confusing me, meaning that attempt of Wuba-ness works.
Also, my view on NQT is...wavering, especially in the recent hours. While his evasion of questions could be alluded to some kind of busy-ness, or stuff, that was a lot of time to notice what is being addressed to you. A lot of darn time. Laziness doesn't factor into the equation as his posting isn't sporadic (cheers to me wondering why he's joking (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4040865#msg4040865) here).
Still, NQT
Finally! Okay, we're on the home stretch now- we've only got one more scum to hunt down. The odds are almost irrevocably in out favour. Let's not lose sight of the goal.Irrevocably? What did you do to catch and find scum?
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2013, 10:20:21 am
Deathsword and Habah, what do you think of the proceedings? Who is the last scumbucket?Could you explain what you mean by proceedings?
As for whom is the last scum, I am not completely sure, I am going through the game to see if I notice anything.
NQT:Why are you acting as if you helped lynch Dariush (which you didn't)? Then there was this:
I can see why you'd vote Dariush. On votes alone he has a fairly scummy read: enough people have voted for him to make mason seem unlikely, and he's consistently urged lynches on people later proven to be mason or town (this latter point is true of Tiruin as well). This is enough to look suspicious, but shucks, he could be town with bad luck chosing targets. So give me another good reason why we should lynch himIf he looked suspicious, why didn't you question him? Why did you raise the possibility of being unlucky town? It looks to me as if you were trying to defend Dariush without attracting too much attention or look like you were defending him.
Post by: Vector on February 24, 2013, 12:47:06 pm
Post by: Hapah on February 24, 2013, 05:15:29 pm
Post by: zombie urist on February 25, 2013, 01:17:38 am
Well, I guess the main example on how my meta has changed...That's nice. I didn't really care.
I checked some of Dariush's recent behavior before attacking him on meta grounds, just to make sure he was behaving the same. As he does seem to be, I saw no harm in making a meta argument.Really? Because IMO Dariush's behavior has changed significantly since I've started playing. (which I believe is pretty close to when you quit)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
On the other hand, Toaster's reasons have been really weak the entire game. Huuuuuuh.
Post by: Vector on February 25, 2013, 01:19:13 am
Post by: notquitethere on February 25, 2013, 09:14:32 am
Vector
Not on forum games. I've played a few live games, but that's mostly sitting around in a circle wildly pointing hands.I thought you had experience elsewhere?Oh, and please answer this.
Yes, I read the entire thread. Here's what I want to know: if you thought Dariush was scum, then why didn't you vote to lynch him?I said he was most likely scum, or more accurately, he was a strong candidate for being scum. Y'all were on track to lynching him so he didn't need my bandwagon vote. I was beginning to think he might not be scum when there was nobody dying from scum-kills, but then Dariush up and killed himself with his rebounded strike. Here's one such place where I note my suspicions:
It's not intended as a bandwagon, Dariush, it's a pressure vote. If I'm not satisfied that Toaster is scum I will unvote like I did with TZZ. The vote record method is not bullshit and it's beginning to show results. I argued that Ford and TZZ were most likely not scum with reference to voting patterns and to everyone's surprise but my own they weren't scum. By its metric, you're pretty damn suspicious Dariush, having a 100% mislynch record. You've either got bad luck, bad judgement or you're scum.
Furthermore, you still haven't replied to my question and you're voting the guy who (*drumroll*) is up for replacement.I didn't realise he was still up for replacement. Does it matter? If Toaster looks suspicious then so will whoever takes his place.
What are your reads? What clears ZombieUrist and Deathsword?
I gave my reads a few pages back and they mostly still stand. Nothing clears ZU and Deathsword. DS has been smeared with moderate masonry by Tiruin's claim. ZU appears town or a very smart scum. I'm still keeping in mind Ford's multi-part take-down of ZU in one of his pre-death posts.
Tiruin
NQT: You're missing quite a lot of questions addressed to you, why is that?I've only been able to post from phone and have been very busy this last week. If there's still questions unanswered from this batch, please do point them out. I'm usually pretty good at answering people.
The most important information that we have at this time is that Dariush was scum. As far as I can tell, Toaster had no suspicions to that end. You don't like my style, Tiruin, or is something more than that?Toaster- am I mistaken, but were you blind to Dariush's potential maleficence?What in the world are you acting upon here? Reason behind this vote, and how you came up with it. How Dariush matters with this.
Irrevocably, as in, cannot be revoked; no turning back; town are probably going to win. What have I done? I've logically looked at how people have voted and offered up my suspicions based on this information. Technically, no one has caught any scum in this game, as they've all self-destructed. Dariush's death makes me think you're mason claim might be made-up.Finally! Okay, we're on the home stretch now- we've only got one more scum to hunt down. The odds are almost irrevocably in out favour. Let's not lose sight of the goal.Irrevocably? What did you do to catch and find scum?
DS
NQT:Why are you acting as if you helped lynch Dariush (which you didn't)? Then there was this:I did question him (see the quote above and elsewhere). I've said several times that given that he had helped lynch three innocent people in a row, he looked suspicious. He was on track for a hanging, they didn't need my vote and I didn't want everyone else to escape notice. That's how scum win. Futhermore, there's a difference between defending someone and trying to be as fair as possible to each person. Let us not be blinded by lazy suspicions.I can see why you'd vote Dariush. On votes alone he has a fairly scummy read: enough people have voted for him to make mason seem unlikely, and he's consistently urged lynches on people later proven to be mason or town (this latter point is true of Tiruin as well). This is enough to look suspicious, but shucks, he could be town with bad luck chosing targets. So give me another good reason why we should lynch himIf he looked suspicious, why didn't you question him? Why did you raise the possibility of being unlucky town? It looks to me as if you were trying to defend Dariush without attracting too much attention or look like you were defending him.
Everyone: Do let me know if I've missed any of your questions.
Post by: Teneb on February 25, 2013, 11:15:29 am
DSYou say you thought he was supicious, but you've barely asked him any questions, you just sat on the sidelines while he was lynched. If he was suspicious, why didn't you ask him more questions? If he was suspicious why didn't you vote him to ensure there wouldn't be any ties (and there was one I ended up breaking)?NQT:Why are you acting as if you helped lynch Dariush (which you didn't)? Then there was this:I did question him (see the quote above and elsewhere). I've said several times that given that he had helped lynch three innocent people in a row, he looked suspicious. He was on track for a hanging, they didn't need my vote and I didn't want everyone else to escape notice. That's how scum win. Futhermore, there's a difference between defending someone and trying to be as fair as possible to each person. Let us not be blinded by lazy suspicions.I can see why you'd vote Dariush. On votes alone he has a fairly scummy read: enough people have voted for him to make mason seem unlikely, and he's consistently urged lynches on people later proven to be mason or town (this latter point is true of Tiruin as well). This is enough to look suspicious, but shucks, he could be town with bad luck chosing targets. So give me another good reason why we should lynch himIf he looked suspicious, why didn't you question him? Why did you raise the possibility of being unlucky town? It looks to me as if you were trying to defend Dariush without attracting too much attention or look like you were defending him.
Post by: Tiruin on February 25, 2013, 11:34:13 am
Next,
Quote
What have I done? I've logically looked at how people have voted and offered up my suspicions based on this information. Technically, no one has caught any scum in this game, as they've all self-destructed. Dariush's death makes me think you're mason claim might be made-up.What the-
...Alright, I really believe you're being super jumpy. One, you keep on worrying about 'IF MY CLAIM IS TRUE THEN WE'RE ALL DEAD'. Now...what is this?
What do you think about my mason claim and its relevance according to the people mentioned, and their replies to it?
What do you think about me, and my colleagues mentioned?
Now you see Dariush tried to shoot someone once he was convinced that he was going to be lynched - at least being useful before death. You vote Toaster because...either his vote was with Dar's, or he didn't vote Dariush. Toaster had no suspicions at that end (because he did request replacement and was busy) [Toaster needs to answer why he just jump-voted while being in replacement, giving off a blank reason why, though.] but that does not reconcile your efforts in...well, that.
Was that a pressure vote? If so, do you intend it to stay there? If not, what made it stick?
And IMO, I think we did 'catch' scum. He just used an alternative which would at least do something other than wait and die (though, Dar, you shouldn't have sacrificed sleep to just shoot someone, you could've done it before sleepy-time judging by how things were going, but I don't know your timezone and this is just helpful advice).
Now other than what Toaster did. What makes you think Toaster, among everyone else, deserve your vote?
PPE: DS
Post by: Toaster on February 25, 2013, 11:53:44 am
For the record, my gut tells me you're scum too.
Post by: notquitethere on February 25, 2013, 12:01:43 pm
These are fair questions. In many ways I'm still finding my feet with Mafia. I probably haven't been applying as much pressure on people as I should have been. I would have changed my vote if it looked like there was still going to be a tie at day's end, but Dariush offed himself before it came to that.
Tiruin
Next,I'm sorry if I'm coming across as jumpy. Tone can be hard to convey fully in a purely text-medium. My earlier worry was well-founded, I genuinely thought your mason claiming was an ill-judged move for town and I've explained quite sufficiently why this is the case. What is what exactly? I'm not being evasive here, I'm sure everyone else will agree with me when I say that sometimes your posts aren't as clear as they might be.QuoteWhat have I done? I've logically looked at how people have voted and offered up my suspicions based on this information. Technically, no one has caught any scum in this game, as they've all self-destructed. Dariush's death makes me think you're mason claim might be made-up.What the-
...Alright, I really believe you're being super jumpy. One, you keep on worrying about 'IF MY CLAIM IS TRUE THEN WE'RE ALL DEAD'. Now...what is this?
Quote
What do you think about my mason claim and its relevance according to the people mentioned, and their replies to it?It depends. If you're telling the truth, it was an awful idea. The fact that Dariush is dead makes me think you were lying. Your supposed mason-buddies have been a bit quiet and non-committal on the issue as far as I can make out. Hapah, DS, was Tiruin's claim a good move for town?
Quote
What do you think about me, and my colleagues mentioned?You looked suspicious before, having consistently lynched town-folk just like Dariush. Hapah and DS I read as fairly null nowadays. The only person I know almost certainly isn't a mason is Toaster (as he voted TolyK in a way likely to lead to Toly's death).
Quote
Now you see Dariush tried to shoot someone once he was convinced that he was going to be lynched - at least being useful before death. You vote Toaster because...either his vote was with Dar's, or he didn't vote Dariush. Toaster had no suspicions at that end (because he did request replacement and was busy) [Toaster needs to answer why he just jump-voted while being in replacement, giving off a blank reason why, though.] but that does not reconcile your efforts in...well, that.Toaster voted for someone who later turned out to be a mason, so is probably either scum or town. Toaster also voted for Ford for bullshit meta reasons, which has made me consistently suspicious since then. I was pressuring Toaster on the Dariush issue but Dariush isn't the reason why Toaster looks guilty to me.
Was that a pressure vote? If so, do you intend it to stay there? If not, what made it stick?
Now other than what Toaster did. What makes you think Toaster, among everyone else, deserve your vote?
In any case, now it's clear that Toaster is genuinely asking for replacement, I'll look into other people until a replacement is found.
UNVOTE
Quote
And IMO, I think we did 'catch' scum. He just used an alternative which would at least do something other than wait and dieSure, that's why I said 'technically'. But I take your point, town pressured him to death.
Have I answered your questions satisfactorily yet? I've got a question though, Tiruin, can you give us some solid reasons why we should believe your mason claim?
Proper Dariush post-lynch analysis upcoming.
Post by: Tiruin on February 25, 2013, 12:15:11 pm
Quote
I've got a question though, Tiruin, can you give us some solid reasons why we should believe your mason claim?Why should you, by the way? I put that out because the game was dying at the time. I put that out as hopes to get things rolling - obviously, I didn't state my whole team (because counter-intuitive to the goal, duh) but who I did state was true. Now the fun part is if you'd believe it or not, see my one post on WIFOM'ing scum.
Quote
It depends. If you're telling the truth, it was an awful idea. The fact that Dariush is dead makes me think you were lying. Your supposed mason-buddies have been a bit quiet and non-committal on the issue as far as I can make out. Hapah, DS, was Tiruin's claim a good move for town?Why Hapah? And the fact that Dariush is dead means...what? My supposed buddies have been quiet since when?
Quote
You looked suspicious before, having consistently lynched town-folk just like Dariush. Hapah and DS I read as fairly null nowadays. The only person I know almost certainly isn't a mason is Toaster (as he voted TolyK in a way likely to lead to Toly's death).Hey, handsome. If you'd recall there were many other people who have 'consistently lynched town-folk' to use your own words. Using this as a foundation of your case is just wrong - as Vector said, you need to come up with concrete proof and not something as "Oh no, Tiruin's vote was on this person who lynched. He's town! Tiruin is suspicious."
Expound on the TolyK thing more though, quotes would be preferred.
Quote
In any case, now it's clear that Toaster is genuinely asking for replacement, I'll look into other people until a replacement is found.He was genuinely asking for a replacement before that. Right now, I'm not even sure he's genuinely asking for a replacement as he's still voting and giving his opinion.
Tiruin: If you recall, I was voting NQT yesterday, and any reasons I posted then still hold.Could you explain why? If you're going to give reads but in the least not act, revoke your request for replacement.
For the record, my gut tells me you're scum too.
And we've only got 1 scum left. Count it right.
Post by: Toaster on February 25, 2013, 12:22:39 pm
And we've only got 1 scum left. Count it right.
...Derp. Well, since NQT is scum you're not. Oh well.
Minimum contribution's not really justifiable for staying in, but I'd at least like to help keep the game alive by doing something. I don't want to see it die for lack of replacements.
Post by: Tiruin on February 25, 2013, 12:30:52 pm
Minimum contribution's not really justifiable for staying in, but I'd at least like to help keep the game alive by doing something. I don't want to see it die for lack of replacements.Good point...Sorry if I nudged you wrong >.>
And I forgot to put this in:
NQT:
Quote
Proper Dariush post-lynch analysis upcoming.Add this to the list of questions to be answered.
Why are you going to analyze a dead man's lynch? And from where are you deriving such...seemingly soon to be presumed valid information?
Post by: Vector on February 25, 2013, 12:45:49 pm
Post by: notquitethere on February 25, 2013, 01:00:33 pm
I've done this for the other deaths and Dariush is no exception. Dariush's death is quite possibly the best thing that's happened for us this game. We know that Dariush was scum and unlike the trigger-happy Imiknorris and Nerjin, we've got a lot of information about Dariush.
Dariush's Death
These people led to Dariush's lynch:
zombie urist
Tiruin
Deathsword
Vector
They look the most innocent at this juncture. At this stage, Dariush was voting for NQT, who was earlier in the discussion two votes off being lynched. Make of that what you will.
Dariush's Life
Here are the stats on Dariush.
People that never voted or FOSed Dariush in the whole game:
Nerjin - Scum
Phantom/Hapah - Mason Claimant
TolyK 0v - Scum
Edosurist/ZoomZoll - Troll Town
Urist Imiknorris 0v - Scum
Toaster - ?
People that Dariush voted and FOSed in the whole game:
Captain Ford 4v - Town
TolyK 1fos - Mason
Edosurist/ZoomZoll 3fos - Town
notquitethere 1v 3fos - ?
zombie urist 4 fos - ?
obolisk0430/Vector 1v - ?
People Dariush never voted or FOSed:
Tiruin - Mason Claimant
Nerjin - Scum
Phantom of The Library/Hapah - Mason Claimant
Toaster - ?
Deathsword - Mason Claimaint
Urist Imiknorris - Scum
Conclusions
In the whole game there is one person that stands out in relation to Dariush: Toaster. Everyone other Toaster that wasn't suspicious of Dariush is either a mason-claimaint, scum or TheZoomZoll. Everyone that Dariush never tried to lynch or pour suspicion on is either scum, a mason-claimant or Toaster. These are the facts.
Post by: Tiruin on February 25, 2013, 01:06:32 pm
0v? Also, Hapah claimed Mason?!
And (mostly) finally, I'm getting what you were aiming at this whole time. Thanks for making it tabulated and with formatting!
And....your vote lies with me, but FoS on Toaster for what reason now?
Still awaiting those questions.
Post by: notquitethere on February 25, 2013, 01:39:51 pm
What you've ended up doing is WIFOM'ing Town as well so whichever way you look at it, it was a lousy move.QuoteI've got a question though, Tiruin, can you give us some solid reasons why we should believe your mason claim?Why should you, by the way? I put that out because the game was dying at the time. I put that out as hopes to get things rolling - obviously, I didn't state my whole team (because counter-intuitive to the goal, duh) but who I did state was true. Now the fun part is if you'd believe it or not, see my one post on WIFOM'ing scum.
Quote
Why Hapah? And the fact that Dariush is dead means...what? My supposed buddies have been quiet since when?Hapah because you're claiming he's mason:
Masons: Me, Hapah, DS, TolyK.
Your supposed buddies have been relatively quiet on their purported masonhood
Quote
Hey, handsome. If you'd recall there were many other people who have 'consistently lynched town-folk' to use your own words. Using this as a foundation of your case is just wrong - as Vector said, you need to come up with concrete proof and not something as "Oh no, Tiruin's vote was on this person who lynched. He's town! Tiruin is suspicious."See my latest analysis. I don't really think you're scum. Unvote.
Quote
Expound on the TolyK thing more though, quotes would be preferred.What's there to expound? TolyK was mason, we don't need quotes to prove that. TolyK went up for vote and was scum-hammered. Unless you've got a terrible memory, I don't need quotes to prove that. Toaster's vote was on TolyK when TolyK was scum-hammered. Thus, Toaster is either an incredibly incompetent mason or not a mason at all. Toaster is not an inexperienced player so I don't think he's incompetent. Thus, as TolyK was a mason, Toaster isn't a mason.
0v? Also, Hapah claimed Mason?!'0v' means 'zero votes'. It's just an artefact from my own notes (I have an excel spreadsheet on this). Hapah didn't claim mason, you claimed mason on his behalf or have you forgot that already?
Quote
And (mostly) finally, I'm getting what you were aiming at this whole time. Thanks for making it tabulated and with formatting!I'm pleased you get it. The Big Point I've been pushing in this game is we should look at who voted for whom. I assume this response is no longer necessary:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
And....your vote lies with me, but FoS on Toaster for what reason now?
Quote
You're quite right. Toaster, you scummy appliance, are you playing or are you not playing?QuoteIn any case, now it's clear that Toaster is genuinely asking for replacement, I'll look into other people until a replacement is found.He was genuinely asking for a replacement before that. Right now, I'm not even sure he's genuinely asking for a replacement as he's still voting and giving his opinion.
Vector
. . . NQT, I have a really hard time believing that you're both town-aligned and having trouble figuring out Deathsword's mason claim. Indeed, the person most interested in whether or not Deathsword would be telling the truth on that particular information should be the final scumbag.Look I haven't pressured DS and Hapah on these points, and I when the claim was first made I did say to them not to answer me if they thought it would harm town:
Hapah
Question: do you think Tiruin's revelation will help the town team. Is he telling the truth? (If you think telling me whether Tiruin's telling the truth will damage team town, then feel free to ignore this question.)
What do you think about my case against Toaster?
Post by: Vector on February 25, 2013, 02:33:02 pm
As far as Toaster goes, my read from the beginning of the game was strongly enough town that I'm willing to sit on it today. I have no idea what he's doing now, and if killing you doesn't end the game then I'll probably advocate offing him next round (because replacements/lurkers near LYLO == very, very bad, and we've got a lot of space until LYLO). However, he's not really open to questioning in any case, so I don't see any point in wasting time with him right now.
Post by: Tiruin on February 25, 2013, 02:35:01 pm
But you're missing one thing:
Quote
Was that a pressure vote? If so, do you intend it to stay there? If not, what made it stick?You didn't answer this at all.
Post by: zombie urist on February 25, 2013, 02:37:25 pm
NQT does present some rather strong evidence of Toaster being scum, though since he's up for replace I can't really say anything about it.
Post by: Vector on February 25, 2013, 02:42:49 pm
Post by: Teneb on February 25, 2013, 03:03:17 pm
Le big list
There is an error in that list. Dariush voted me briefly.
Vector: regarding your question on my thoughts on the proceedings, my main suspect is NQT (he seems too friendly, might just be his meta which is why I haven't a vote riding on him yet), with both you and toaster as nulls, and ZU leaning town (but could be more active). Tiruin and Hapah are, of course, mason.
NQT: Analyzing a person's lynch often leads to WIFOM, and is thus avoided.
Vector: How is NQT deflecting? While he has a fixation on lynching Toaster, and indeed keeps making the same mistakes and then apologizing over and over, I don't really see how he is deflecting.
Post by: Vector on February 25, 2013, 03:22:47 pm
Vector. . . NQT, I have a really hard time believing that you're both town-aligned and having trouble figuring out Deathsword's mason claim. Indeed, the person most interested in whether or not Deathsword would be telling the truth on that particular information should be the final scumbag.Look I haven't pressured DS and Hapah on these points, and I when the claim was first made I did say to them not to answer me if they thought it would harm town:Hapah
Question: do you think Tiruin's revelation will help the town team. Is he telling the truth? (If you think telling me whether Tiruin's telling the truth will damage team town, then feel free to ignore this question.)
What do you think about my case against Toaster?
Look: I attack him, he defends himself in a pretty jumpy, nervous-sounding way, then he asks me what I think about his case against Toaster. This is classic deflection.
Post by: notquitethere on February 25, 2013, 03:57:03 pm
I think that you sound nervous. You're vote-hopping, you're deflecting, and you keep on apologizing but doing nothing to remedy your actual play.Looks like you've already made up your mind about me and now you're looking for more things to pin on me. Asking you a game relevant question isn't deflecting if I also answer your other queries.
Quote
As far as Toaster goes, my read from the beginning of the game was strongly enough town that I'm willing to sit on it today. I have no idea what he's doing now, and if killing you doesn't end the game then I'll probably advocate offing him next round (because replacements/lurkers near LYLO == very, very bad, and we've got a lot of space until LYLO). However, he's not really open to questioning in any case, so I don't see any point in wasting time with him right now.I see what you're saying, but really from the arguments I've presented he's the most suspicious player in the game. It doesn't matter who's playing him, if he's scum he's scum.
Tiruin
But you're missing one thing:I did, but you just didn't read it as an answer:QuoteWas that a pressure vote? If so, do you intend it to stay there? If not, what made it stick?You didn't answer this at all.
Toaster voted for someone who later turned out to be a mason, so is probably either scum or town. Toaster also voted for Ford for bullshit meta reasons, which has made me consistently suspicious since then. I was pressuring Toaster on the Dariush issue but Dariush isn't the reason why Toaster looks guilty to me.
DS
NQT:Point to where this is the case. I've looked over the whole thread and done a search of Dariush's posts.Le big list
There is an error in that list. Dariush voted me briefly.
Quote
NQT: Analyzing a person's lynch often leads to WIFOM, and is thus avoided.A person's lynch is the only concrete evidence in a game. Do you even know what WIFOM means? It's when you speculate about someone's motivations when you have basically no substantial evidence. A person's lynch is substantial evidence. Please tell me if there's a more reliable scum hunting technique than looking at irrefutable facts.
Post by: Vector on February 25, 2013, 04:10:01 pm
I get it. You're a logician. You think your type of evidence is best, and under that type of evidence Toaster is most suspicious. Sure! On the other hand, I am an old hand at this and I've got to say that if you think the scumteam won't vote itself, bandwagon itself, attack itself viciously just to avoid that kind of analysis, you have another thing coming. It ends up sliding into WIFOM: "Did they do this because they're town? Or are they scum trying to look like town? Or is that just what they want us to think?"
I am not going to unvote you just because you ask nicely and seem naive. You seem way too worried about being lynched for my taste... and by the way, it's not that I'm looking for more stuff to pin on you, it's that you keep doing scummy crap, so I figure I might as well point it out. If you're just naive town, then you need to think this game through some more and learn better how to play, and if you're scum... well, I'd never forgive myself if I let you get away with this.
Post by: Teneb on February 25, 2013, 06:42:33 pm
DSWIFOM, to quote from the definition found at the OP of every BM:NQT:Point to where this is the case. I've looked over the whole thread and done a search of Dariush's posts.Le big list
There is an error in that list. Dariush voted me briefly.QuoteNQT: Analyzing a person's lynch often leads to WIFOM, and is thus avoided.A person's lynch is the only concrete evidence in a game. Do you even know what WIFOM means? It's when you speculate about someone's motivations when you have basically no substantial evidence. A person's lynch is substantial evidence. Please tell me if there's a more reliable scum hunting technique than looking at irrefutable facts.
Quote
WIFOM - Wine In Front Of Me, the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.The most reliable method of scumhunting is called questioning.Quote from: Princess Bride"All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."
"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"
Post by: Hapah on February 25, 2013, 07:25:05 pm
Deathsword and Habah, what do you think of the proceedings? Who is the last scumbucket?Fear the Habah.
I'm still sticking with Toaster as the last scum. It doesn't hurt that I had the scumteam as Toaster-Dar in my head (though I've no way to prove that, I don't think I mentioned it anywhere in the thread). It also helps that it's a pretty damn short list at this point. My case was laid out in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg4013902#msg4013902) post, and while it may be dated I'd still say the information is good. I could peg NQT for runner-up, but I'm really getting more of a new-player read from him than anything, really.
NQT:
I said he was most likely scum, or more accurately, he was a strong candidate for being scum. Y'all were on track to lynching him so he didn't need my bandwagon vote. -snip-Bit of advice, though I don't know who will agree with me. Don't be afraid to vote someone that you think is scum, even if it looks sorta like a bandwagon. As long as you can back up your vote with reasons, you should press on with the vote instead of leaving things to chance. It gives a lot more information than being non-committal (FYI, being non-committal is one of my major flaws as a player. I'm working on it, honest!)
Quote from: NQT
-snip-Could you link me to where he voted you, please?
They look the most innocent at this juncture. At this stage, Dariush was voting for NQT, who was earlier in the discussion two votes off being lynched. Make of that what you will.
Post by: notquitethere on February 25, 2013, 07:43:24 pm
Post by: Vector on February 26, 2013, 05:49:22 pm
Post by: zombie urist on February 26, 2013, 06:41:03 pm
Thus I'll vote for NQT as I think his lynch will give us more information.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 26, 2013, 08:16:30 pm
Tiruin:
Hapah:
Deathsword:
notquitethere: Vector, Toaster, zombie urist (3) <--- L-1
zombie urist:
Toaster: notquitethere, Hapah (2)
Vector:
Not voting: Tiruin, Deathsword (2)
Deadline is March 2nd, 08:57:41 pm GMT.
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130302T205741&p0=136&msg=Day+4+deadline
(forum time will be used rather than this countdown, but the countdown is accurate to like the nearest minute)
Post by: Leafsnail on February 26, 2013, 09:49:07 pm
February 27th, 2030
A swift police operation ended with the arrest of another man in connection with hacking offenses. It is believed that the arrest was based on a tip-off that was added to the bottom of Pseudonym's Mikipedia page.
"Some people have claimed that Pseudonym's leadership structure has remained largely untouched by the recent arrests," said a source close to police. "However, with the arrest of "Deathsword" over half of Pseudonym's alleged leaders - or "masons" - are in custody. The group is history."
The suspect, like all other alleged "masons" and "townies", protests his innocence. However, it emerged yesterday that the currently incarcerated "mafia goons" have accepted a form of plea bargain, agreeing to assist the police in their investigation against Pseudonym in exchange for reduced sentences.
Deathsword has been doxxed.
He was a mason.
The votecount has now been reset, and the deadline is in a week's time.
With 6 alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.
It should be noted that doxxes can be submitted in advance and delayed.
Post by: Toaster on February 26, 2013, 10:00:14 pm
I guess you can Cancel replacement request now- I'm in a better position to pay attention to this game now (especially with a smaller playerbase.)
If there are any outstanding questions to me, please repeat them?
Post by: zombie urist on February 26, 2013, 10:02:24 pm
Post by: notquitethere on February 26, 2013, 10:15:29 pm
I guess being almost lynched makes NQT get brave.Toaster, the mason claims have been likely and around for ages. The ideal time for scum to make use of them and kill a mason is when they can be sure that someone else will take the fall. It's similar to why scum killed TolyK: they knew that the town vote would then fall on Ford. Two for the price of one.
Post by: zombie urist on February 26, 2013, 10:18:32 pm
Unvote. Vote Toaster What do you make of Dariush's lynch? What do you think of NQT's vote analysis? What do you think about Vector's meta argument?
Post by: Toaster on February 26, 2013, 11:18:44 pm
I guess being almost lynched makes NQT get brave.Toaster, the mason claims have been likely and around for ages. The ideal time for scum to make use of them and kill a mason is when they can be sure that someone else will take the fall. It's similar to why scum killed TolyK: they knew that the town vote would then fall on Ford. Two for the price of one.
Your TolyK point reeks of WIFOM.
ZU:
Actually...
Unvote. Vote Toaster What do you make of Dariush's lynch? What do you think of NQT's vote analysis? What do you think about Vector's meta argument?
You mean his lynch that didn't happen?
Innocent until proven guilty (8):
Leafsnail - Hacking Mastermind - Doxxed Day 0
Nerjin - mafia goon - Doxxed Day 1
Urist Imiknorris - mafia goon - Doxxed Day 1
TolyK - mason - Lynched Day 1
Captain Ford - townie - Lynched Day 2EdosuristTheZoomZoll - townie - Lynched Day 3
Dariush - mafia goon - Doxxed day 4
Deathsword - mason - Doxxed day 4
He misfired instead of being lynched. I haven't been paying attention and still knew that- what's your excuse? A very cursory glance showed that he lurked and attacked lurkers/TZZ a lot in the time I missed.
The other two questions require a reread which isn't happening tonight.
Post by: notquitethere on February 26, 2013, 11:28:36 pm
Your TolyK point reeks of WIFOM.It's possible I didn't explain it fully as my TolyK point should be self-evident to everyone and was remarked upon by Ford at the time:
The best reason for scum to pick Tolyk? It denies the town an informative lynch. It's why you still want to lynch me. You don't have any more information now than you did yesterday.
He was absolutely correct: voting TolyK gave town no information so they still went ahead and mislynched Ford, playing into scum's hands.
Post by: zombie urist on February 26, 2013, 11:30:52 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 27, 2013, 12:35:12 am
Though on the last, it was mostly because of obol's reactions.
NQT
You killed my brother!!
Its a 3- NQT, 2- Toast.
Tiruin:
Hapah:
notquitethere:
zombie urist:
Toaster:
Vector:
This is the list of remaining players. We've 2 masons, 1 scum. If all masons die, town are still at an advantage.
Post by: Vector on February 27, 2013, 02:21:23 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 27, 2013, 04:20:05 am
Post by: Teneb on February 27, 2013, 09:29:43 am
Post by: Leafsnail on February 27, 2013, 09:47:45 am
February 27th, 2030
Police had to force an entry into a house today following another apparent online confession. The confession was posted on a comedy website under the name notquitethere, and gathered thousands of views and replies within just a few hours. Police responded quickly and moved to arrest the man who had made the confession.
When they got to his house they found all the doors and windows electronically sealed, and had to break in due to the occupant apparently being unable to open them. Just minutes after the suspect was taken from the house all of the taps in the house turned on at once.
"If we had not been on hand there is a good chance the suspect would have been seriously injured or worse in the flood,said a police representative, "This may have been an attempted reprisal from Pseudonym, as this man is believed to be a "mafia goon" trying to change the direction of the group. It serves as a reminder of just how dangerous and amoral they are."
notquitethere has been doxxed.
He was a mafia goon.
"Black Day" for Prosecution Service
March 20th, 2030
The crisis embroiling the police force and prosecution service deepened today after it emerged that they had insufficient evidence to charge 4 suspects - known online as TolyK, Captain Ford, TheZoomZoll and Deathsword -. Their trial started today, but a prosecutor was forced to admit that he did not have sufficient evidence to form a case against any of them, citing an "unexplained technical error" at the prosecutor's office that had caused all evidence against the four men to be lost or destroyed. The jury returned a unanimous innocent verdict after just five minutes of deliberation.
It should be noted however that the trial of four other alleged hackers - known as Nerjin, Urist Imiknorris, Dariush and notquitethere - is scheduled to go ahead as planned, and it is believed that these men will not receive mitigation for their testimony now that the other cases have collapsed.
This follows news that alleged hacking mastermind "Leafsnail" has vanished from his maximum security prison cell. A guard raised the alarm after he found the cell empty this morning, but investigators believe he may have left his cell many hours before that. There is currently no official explanation as to how the cell door was unlocked, or as to why the security cameras on-site still show the suspect in his cell.
Police sources have declined to comment on these developments.
All mafia goons are dead! The masons and townies have won. The winners are:
Tiruin
Hapah
zombie urist
Toaster
Vector
TolyK
Captain Ford
TheZoomZoll
Deathsword
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on February 27, 2013, 09:52:57 am
Post by: Dariush on February 27, 2013, 09:54:52 am
Welp.
Post by: Teneb on February 27, 2013, 09:55:10 am
Post by: TolyK on February 27, 2013, 09:56:09 am
Whew, my early death evidently did something good... not. :P
That was one damn funny gambit, though, Tiruin.
Post by: Teneb on February 27, 2013, 09:57:59 am
Good game!
Whew, my early death evidently did something good... not. :P
That was one damn funny gambit, though, Tiruin.
Yeah, I should explain this to non-masons. The real mason team was Tiruin, TolyK, myself and ZU. Hapah was actually town. My greatest fear with that gambit was that Hapah was scum, then we'd be screwed.
Dariush, who did you try to doxx?
Post by: Toaster on February 27, 2013, 10:02:33 am
Well done, and thanks for saving me from a reread! Sorry my participation sucked, though.
Post by: notquitethere on February 27, 2013, 10:04:49 am
Two things:
One, Vector is good at reads, so kudos.
Two, although I was using it nefariously, I did actually compile an excel spreadsheet of votes and by looking at where they fell I was able to rule out several players as masons, and my technique legitimately showed Dariush to be guilty.
I only wish I'd had more analytical scumbuddies.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 27, 2013, 10:05:22 am
Townies:
Captain Ford
Toaster
Masons:
Tiruin
TolyK
zombie urist
Deathsword
Mafia:
Dariush
notquitethere
Urist Imiknorris
Nerjin
Mason role PM:
Quote
You are a "mason", and part of Leafsnail's trusted circle of hackers. You are loyal to Leafsnail, and you know for certain that every other member of your trusted group is too. Your aim is to eradicate the traitors who brought down your leader, and you can do this by voting for them in the chat.
Unfortunately your previous contact with the rest of the leadership means that your computer is vulnerable. A traitor attacking your computer would likely be able to get in, so you need to be careful not to let your identity as a mason be revealed.
The members of the masonry are as follows. Please note that you may not privately communicate with any player, including your fellow masons.
Tiruin
TolyK
zombie urist
Deathsword
You if when [oops] all mafia goons are dead. You lose if half or more of the living players are mafia aligned.
Quote
Mafia goon role PM:
You are a "mafia goon", a rebel against Pseudonym's leadership. You are tired of the group's unethical actions, and want to see the criminal members brought to justice so that Pseudonym can return to its original goal of fighting corruption and greed.
Through advanced hacking techniques you can break into other people's computers and attempt to upload their details to the internet, thus allowing the authorities to arrest them. This will work against the "masons" or leaders of Pseudonym, but if you target a regular member it will backfire and you will only expose yourself.
At any time you may send me a PM with "Kill/doxx player X". If that player is a mason, they die. If that player is a townie, you die. Either way the deadline for the day will be set to a week after the kill goes through.
The members of the mafia are as follows. Please note that you may not privately communicate with any player, including your fellow mafia members.
Dariush
notquitethere
Urist Imiknorris
Nerjin
You win when half or more of the living players are mafia aligned. You lose if all mafia goons are dead.
Actions:
Day one:
Nerjin: Doxx Captain Ford, Phantom of the Library, Deathsword
Result: Captain Ford is a townie , suicide.
Urist Imiknorris: Doxx Phantom of the Library
Result: Phantom of the Library is a townie, suicide.
Dariush: Doxx Hapah, Deathsword, Tiruin
Result: Hapah is a townie, suicide.
notquitethere: Doxx Deathsword
Result: Deathsword is a mason, Deathsword killed.
notquitethere: Doxx Hapah
Result: Hapah is a townie, suicide.
Fun fact: The PotL/Hapah slot killed three of the four mafia members, and the last mafia member submitted him as a second choice. Dude really looked like a mason. I have no idea how Tiruin survived.
Mistakes
I was inconsistent in my spelling of "doxx" (I think it's meant to be dox? eh). This could have caused an issue as it was spelt differently in the mafia PM to the OP, but it was a fairly easy mispelling to make so I don't think it affected the game.
I didn't realize the "hide my online status" thing doesn't work in any meaningful way, allowing for people to potentially work out who submitted an action by looking at who was online at the time. In future I'll just have a 24 hour delay for mafia picked things like that, allow delayed action submissions and also allow submission via a private quicktopic (with just me and that mafia member).
Post by: Dariush on February 27, 2013, 10:09:41 am
The real mason team was Tiruin, TolyK, myself and ZU. Hapah was actually town....Fuck. That's one crazy gambit (though it was obvious that not all of you were masons).
I blame NQT for everything and Nerjin and UI for about 95% of everything.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 27, 2013, 10:10:16 am
http://quicktopic.com/50/H/UQhd2w9xhxEF
Post by: Teneb on February 27, 2013, 10:11:50 am
Oh, and deadchat.
http://quicktopic.com/50/H/UQhd2w9xhxEF
Leafsnail, you forgot to send me the deadchat upon my death. Not that it mattered in the end.
Post by: TolyK on February 27, 2013, 10:14:24 am
Post by: notquitethere on February 27, 2013, 10:24:14 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 27, 2013, 10:28:14 am
Hapah is always town. :3
Also, yeah. I figured ZU would be easy enough to blend in with the crowd, so I replaced him with the person I mostly thought would be town.
Or...would fear to be scum because of his townplay. So yeah... :P
Still, gg!
And DARN'IT. I knew NQT was scum! Well, wavering. Wavering being that you were leading in circles...always in circles. Made me suspect Toaster because of the brevity in his posts. But...there was something off once Vector got into you NQT. At least my intuition was right...but too late.
I love how Hapah killed most of the scumteam without trying. <3
Thanks for noticing :PThe real mason team was Tiruin, TolyK, myself and ZU. Hapah was actually town....Fuck. That's one crazy gambit (though it was obvious that not all of you were masons).
Quote
I have no idea how Tiruin survived.Oh you.
Post by: notquitethere on February 27, 2013, 10:47:07 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 27, 2013, 11:35:33 am
TZZ: I know this wasn't stated, but Sorry if I came off as anything offensive and not putting in factoring conditions such as language or area...I guess I've been harsh too...Sorry though for that.
Quote
Bay12 is really bad at hammering people.I was asleep :/
Post by: Toaster on February 27, 2013, 12:24:22 pm
Post by: notquitethere on February 27, 2013, 12:32:58 pm
Post by: zombie urist on February 27, 2013, 12:43:30 pm
My reads from D2 were right and my other reads were wrong.
I pushed for a TZZ lynch mostly cause he was super annoying. I too thought about reporting him for trolling.
Good job Toaster for accurately breaking the game.
Dariush and NQT's interactions didn't really look like a bus, which is a big reason I chose Toaster. I'm glad other ppl thought otherwise.
Yay Vector's back.
I think 5 days is long enough with weekends counting as 1 day, or something like that.
It was a pretty good game overall despite the inactivity in the middle.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on February 27, 2013, 01:18:23 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 27, 2013, 01:19:48 pm
I'm so sorry Toaster for pouring undue suspicion in your direction.
Haha- that's all part of the fun of the game, man. You have to put aside all of your personal codes of conduct to play scum well- you need to be able to lie with a straight face.
That's actually a tell for some newer scum- they have a hard time directly calling someone scum when they know that's not true. Instead of "You are scum- hang" they are all "I suspect you the most therefore I vote you" or similar.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 27, 2013, 01:25:39 pm
Post by: Hapah on February 27, 2013, 01:30:56 pm
...at least I was a bullet magnet, lol.
I agree with one thing on deadchat- NQT and Ford both have promising Mafia careers ahead of them.Oh yes. I look forward to more games with each of them!
Post by: Vector on February 27, 2013, 02:26:40 pm
Quote from: Urist Imiknorris in deadchat
Vector will be the death of us all.
:D
I enjoyed reading y'all's deadchat. Glad to hear you folks missed me.
One, Vector is good at reads, so kudos.
Why, thank you. If you polish yourself up more you'll be quite brilliant at this game; the only reason why I caught you was because I literally felt like I was staring one of my less aggressive scum playstyles in the face.
I feel kind of bad about not running a full attack on you, and being so lazy: it would have made things far clearer and probably helped you clean your game faster. For reference, though, the thing that really tipped me off was all of those questions you were asking during RVS. You didn't do anything with the information you gathered, you just kind of received it and asked a lot more questions. This is one of the scummiest things you can do, as it makes it clear that you have absolutely no interest in scumhunting. You're just going through the motions.
The thing about playing scum is that you mostly have to play a town game, with some technique and planning to gently move the town in your favor from time to time. So I think that with a little more practice on the town side you'll be devastating scum.
Still, you did a really good job all the same. I was very impressed.
I like the term "deconstructionist scum" by the way.
Thanks. This time spent in academia will be the death of me.
Post by: TheZoomZoll on February 27, 2013, 02:43:38 pm
Also if you got confused:I wasn't using a translator,I speak fluent english.Was just trying to raise the flames that were already burning.
Woo.
Post by: zombie urist on February 27, 2013, 02:44:50 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on February 28, 2013, 12:45:30 am
I'm rather impressed. That was very good work for your first real game.
Also, now I don't have to awkwardly tiptoe around the meta from this game. :D