Post by: Teneb on February 12, 2013, 10:05:32 am
Beginner's Mafia XXXVIV
Many years ago, a faction of mages left the Arcane University, dissatisfied with some of the political decisions of the ruling members and their unwillingness to perform or authorize experiments, research or magicks considered unethical. These mages formed the Cabal, an organization dedicated to destroying the University and dominating all magick in the world.
Recently, there have been an increasing number of suspicious accidents across the University, and the Archmage himself believes this to be the work of Cabal infiltrators. To that end, he created a special team of mages, led by a senior wizard of the ruling council.
What was learned too late, however, is that this team itself had been compromised, as the senior wizard found out the hard way when he was stabbed in the back. Now, these would-be-investigators need to find out the traitors in their ranks before it is too late.
Player List [7/7]:
NerjinSilverDragonTheWetSheep - DivinerThe SoldierOnyxjew994 - MagistersuperBlastCaptain Ford - HealerbornoQuadressence - MagisterLord Allagonnotquitethere - Magister- Spaghetti7 - Magister
RemuthraFlying Dice - Cabal Illusionist
ICs [2/2]:
ShakeragTiruin - Cabal Chronomancer- IronyOwl - Magister
Scum IC:
- Urist Imiknorris
Replacement List:
- Okami No Rei
- Griffonday
Introduction
Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XXXVIII. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, you have one goal: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperience challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you cannot always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.
If this is your first time playing, keep in mind that games of forum mafia take several weeks, and can sometimes run longer than a month, and that you are expected to be able to play continuously through that time. If you can't anticipate being able to play for that long for whatever reason, then maybe the game of mafia isn't for you. But if it is, then welcome to the mafia subforum, and I hope you have a great time playing.
Gameplay and Concept
The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.
Before the game begins, each players is given a role and an alignment by the moderator. There are two alignments in this setup: Town and Mafia. The town outnumber the mafia, but each individual member of the town does not know the alignment of any of the other members. The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat. The mafia has access to a nightkill that they may use in the Night phase, while the town occasionally has roles with abilities that are used during the night.
Once everyone has a role, the game begins in the Day phase. During the Day phase, players may discuss the game and each player has a vote that they cast publicly to lynch a player. At the end of the day after some predetermined amount of time, the player with the most votes is lynched. Lynching does two things: it reveals a player's role and alignment, and it removes a player from the game. Once lynched, a player is no longer allowed to post in the thread.
Once the day ends, the game proceeds to Night. During the Night, discussion is prohibited. The mafia team picks a target to nightkill. If available, any town power roles use their actions as well. At the end of the night, the target the mafia chose to nightkill has their role and alignment revealed, and that player is removed from the game in a similar way to being lynched. Once the night ends, the game proceeds to another Day.
Both teams win by eliminating the other. However, due to the nature of the teams, they win very differently. The town win by finding and lynching the mafia, while the mafia win by avoiding being lynched and nightkilling.
Potential Roles
Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Doctor (Town) - A doctor may choose a single player to protect during the night, preventing that player from being nightkilled.
Role-blocker (Mafia) - A role-blocker may choose a single player to block, preventing that player from performing his action.
Godfather (Mafia) - A godfather appears town to Cop inspections.
The only role that receives the success of their results in this setup is the Cop. All other roles are not informed if they were successful or not.
There is no limit to the number of Vanilla Townies or Mafiosos the game may have, but all other roles have a maximum of one.
Spoiler: Role PMs (click to show/hide)
Notes about the ICs
The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give. Some ICs will use a special 'IC voice' to alert players that they are delivering honest, unfiltered advice, while some don't.
The ICs have the special privilege of being able to talk while dead. This is so that they can continue to give advice even if they are killed during the course of the game.
Rules
- Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
- Deathsword,
- Vote Deathsword,
- Forsooth, Deathsword is scum!,
- Vote Scumsword,
- If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this. It is possible to put the name of the player you were voting afterwards, but it is not recommended as it can lead to confusion.
- Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
- PMs - PMs between players are prohibited. You may freely PM the moderator to ask game-related questions, however, what the moderator may reveal is limited.
- Do not quote any direct correspondence with the moderator, including role PMs and rule-related queries.
- Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a train-wreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
- Replacements/Activity - If you find yourself unable to play, you may, and should, request a replacement. We may try to talk you out of it if it's for any other reason besides you not having enough time to play.
- Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
- If you stop playing my game altogether without notifying me, I will come looking for you.
- Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.
- Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours, excluding weekends. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received. Neither of these include weekends.
- Extensions/Shortens - A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There is no limit to the number of extensions that may be granted with one exception. If an extension goes through and players do not make use of it there will be no more extensions on that day. If you request an extension USE IT!
- Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten.
- Extensions/shortens can be opposed by declaring opposition (Oppose Shorten/Extend, I oppose this notion!, My Oppose goes to this), and they count against the total number of votes for an extension/shorten. Extensions count as opposition to shortens and vice versa.
- External Participation - While the game is ongoing, if you are not a player, an IC, or a mod, refrain from posting in the thread.
- Play to win! There is no hopeless situation, so don't ever give up. And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.
Resources and Guides
Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)
Frequently Asked QuestionsSpoiler (click to show/hide)
All days will end at around 22:00 BRT (GMT/UTC-3) and will run for 72 hours. Nights run for 24 hours or until I get all actions. Weekends do not count towards deadlines.
Post by: Nerjin on February 12, 2013, 10:23:09 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 12, 2013, 10:37:34 am
Post by: notquitethere on February 12, 2013, 10:45:10 am
Post by: superBlast on February 12, 2013, 10:46:19 am
Post by: Dariush on February 12, 2013, 10:51:52 am
I don't really need another BMLol srsly
Post by: Scelly9 on February 12, 2013, 11:17:25 am
Post by: The Soldier on February 12, 2013, 11:28:18 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on February 12, 2013, 03:49:06 pm
Posting to watch.
Post by: Teneb on February 12, 2013, 03:58:12 pm
I'd like to point out that the proper Roman numeralization for this game is XXXIX, but it's too late now, I have it down as XXXVIV in the New Player's thread and it's too adorable a mistake to change.
Posting to watch.
Ugh, I misread the previous one as XXXIII. And made a horrible, horrible typo. I can change it if needed.
Post by: Jim Groovester on February 12, 2013, 04:02:57 pm
Post by: Hapah on February 12, 2013, 05:09:56 pm
Post by: The Soldier on February 12, 2013, 06:14:55 pm
Post by: borno on February 13, 2013, 02:53:32 am
Post by: Dariush on February 13, 2013, 12:40:05 pm
As an advance warning, I have a wedding to attend, so don't expect much from me this Friday/Saturday (assuming the game has started by then, of course).On this board people commonly disappear for several days without any explanations, and intentional lurk-a-trons can go on for weeks with barely a post, so there isn't really any reason to warn about two-day absence.
Post by: Lord Allagon on February 14, 2013, 02:44:16 am
How long do BMs usually last? I'm probably going to have enough free time until March, but if the game isn't over by then I might need to be replaced. (It's not likely, but maybe.)
Post by: Tiruin on February 14, 2013, 07:43:52 am
In.A month, usually. :P Less, if the players don't extend and the mafia don't not NK much.
How long do BMs usually last? I'm probably going to have enough free time until March, but if the game isn't over by then I might need to be replaced. (It's not likely, but maybe.)
Post by: Nerjin on February 14, 2013, 11:58:25 am
In.A month, usually. :P Less, if the players don't extend and the mafia don't not NK much.
How long do BMs usually last? I'm probably going to have enough free time until March, but if the game isn't over by then I might need to be replaced. (It's not likely, but maybe.)
As was the case for the last two. Luckily the extend thing can be stopped by the GM if no one does anything with the extends [or did no one notice I added that?] and the mafia tend to night kill unless they're A) Showing Off or B) In a different time zone.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 14, 2013, 12:48:12 pm
I think that's the perfect spot for me right now.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 17, 2013, 04:16:25 am
Post by: Teneb on February 17, 2013, 09:47:34 am
Post by: Remuthra on February 17, 2013, 09:49:09 am
Player acquired.
Post by: Teneb on February 17, 2013, 10:07:25 am
Post by: IronyOwl on February 17, 2013, 05:16:49 pm
Post by: Nerjin on February 17, 2013, 05:29:56 pm
Available but not ideal as an IC. Ideally ICs should be active, which I tend to not quite manage.
Beats having no IC at all.
Post by: Teneb on February 17, 2013, 06:08:21 pm
Available but not ideal as an IC. Ideally ICs should be active, which I tend to not quite manage.
Beats having no IC at all.
Indeed. You've been added to the first playing IC spot. Still need another playing IC and a scum IC.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on February 17, 2013, 07:35:58 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 18, 2013, 03:10:41 am
Post by: kingfisher1112 on February 18, 2013, 03:42:52 am
I think it is time to try again.
Post by: Shakerag on February 19, 2013, 10:18:46 am
Of course, having said that, watch me get super busy now.
Post by: Teneb on February 19, 2013, 03:08:32 pm
I'll offer to tag in for IO, if only because it pains me to see such an inactive IC.
Of course, having said that, watch me get super busy now.
I'll place you in IO's spot then, assuming IO himself has no problem with this. Also sending a message to Tiruin to confirm.
Post by: Tiruin on February 20, 2013, 12:27:52 am
Post by: Teneb on February 20, 2013, 06:06:34 am
Post by: Teneb on February 20, 2013, 06:54:36 pm
Post by: Teneb on February 20, 2013, 07:25:23 pm
As dawn appeared over the Arcane University, many mages woke up to that cry. Magister Dariush lay dead, face down in a pool of his own blood on the floor of the alchemist’s greenhouse, found by a now-horrified apprentice. Dariush had been chosen by the Archmage himself to lead the secret investigation team responsible for rooting out Cabal spies. The cause of the magister’s death was a dagger, adorned with sigils of the Cabal, buried deep into his back.
While to most mages the dagger meant a Cabal assassin had struck, the Archmage and the investigators that were supposed to work under deceased magister knew this was far worse. There were traitors amongst them.
An hour later, the team and the Archmage were gathered in the room that would, originally, serve as a planning room for the whole operation.
“As I am sure that all of you are already aware,” the Archmage said “magister Dariush was found dead this morning. Only those present in this room know his, and your, task. Thus, it is with great sadness that I must conclude that some of you are traitors. Thus, you are now tasked with finding the traitors in this room. “
“I’ve personally searched the rooms of each of you, and found no evidence. There is only one solution. You will have to decide whom among you is a traitor. At the end of the day, whomever you believe to be an infiltrator will be executed, and their bodies investigated for any Cabal markings, which we know are usually branded in a way that can only be seen if the owner wills it or upon death. You may begin”
With those words he left the room. A few seconds after, the sound of the door being locked and infused with magick were heard. The doors would only open at dusk, and with them would come the death of someone.
Day will end at 25/03/2013 (DD/MM/YYYY) at 22:00 BRT (see OP for conversion). There are 72:30 hours left.
Post by: The Soldier on February 20, 2013, 07:38:39 pm
Remuthra: How much mafia have you played, if any?
Nerjin: Suppose you were a cop, and it's night 1. Who would you rather inspect: an obviously new, nervous player; a strong player, who nonetheless seems town; or someone who only made it through day 1 by a miracle?
borno: Would you rather be a Godfather or a Roleblocker as scum? Why?
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 07:41:46 pm
Quote
Remuthra: How much mafia have you played, if any?None on the forums, but I played the SC2 version quite a bit.
Post by: The Soldier on February 20, 2013, 07:44:46 pm
QuoteRemuthra: How much mafia have you played, if any?None on the forums, but I played the SC2 version quite a bit.
Have you read any of the games here? I'd imagine they're a lot different than SC2 mafia.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 07:46:13 pm
No, but from reading the rules page I gather that the only real difference is that the SC2 edition has about 20 more roles.QuoteRemuthra: How much mafia have you played, if any?None on the forums, but I played the SC2 version quite a bit.
Have you read any of the games here? I'd imagine they're a lot different than SC2 mafia.
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 07:48:01 pm
This is where I ask a question or two, right? Will someone give a me a good question to ask him? There's two questions.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 07:50:14 pm
Hm... I vote IronyOwl for help mislynching me on my first mafia game hahaha!1. Y U SO CABAL?
This is where I ask a question or two, right? Will someone give a me a good question to ask him? There's two questions.
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 07:52:13 pm
1. Y U SO CABAL?
I have another question. Huh?
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 07:52:39 pm
Alright, we have 2 then.1. Y U SO CABAL?
I have another question. Huh?
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 07:55:13 pm
Already I like ya. Now I have 2 more for you. The first one is, you'll answer my next question honestly right?
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 07:56:45 pm
Blue.
No wait!
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 08:00:00 pm
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 08:03:58 pm
Post by: Nerjin on February 20, 2013, 08:09:44 pm
Nerjin: Suppose you were a cop, and it's night 1. Who would you rather inspect: an obviously new, nervous player; a strong player, who nonetheless seems town; or someone who only made it through day 1 by a miracle?
It really depends on the situation. If I think someone is scummy I would investigate them. Likely I'd be on the lookout for the IC's as they are much more experienced than all of us put together. However to answer your question fully: Someone who made it through on a miracle.
Hm... I vote IronyOwl for help mislynching me on my first mafia game hahaha!
This is where I ask a question or two, right? Will someone give a me a good question to ask him? There's two questions.
Yeah... That whole OMGUS doesn't go over well in a single game much less across multiple. I suggest you rescind that, you'd get demolished for it in a real game. But yes this is where you ask questions. Check the below list for a few. There's even one for you!
@The Soldier: You seem interested in the cop role. I'm more interested in the scum ones. If you had your choice what scum role would you be and why?
@superblast: While you seem to be having a jolly good time, I'm curious as to who you'd protect if you were the doctor and why.
@borno: I have not seen you in a game before that I recall. Sorry, help me fill in the blanks please. What is your general route to hunting scum.
@Lord Allagon: Do you take a lynch-all-lurkers strategy? Why or Why not?
@Spaghetti7: When would be the best time for a doctor/cop role claim in your opinion and why?
@Remuthra: You seem to be enjoying yourself. Do you feel that superBlast is merely putting on airs and trying to buddy or is he simply jovial?
@Shakerag: As a pillar of the mafia community you've seen a lot of 'battles'. If it came down to it who would you want to be in a lylo situation with you if you were scum excluding Irony Owl?
@Irony Owl: Same question as Shakerag but with you in his place and being unable to take Shake.
PPE:
lol
Already I like ya. Now I have 2 more for you. The first one is, you'll answer my next question honestly right?
Glad you're having fun, however you're using up a lot of space gentlemen. I may not be an IC but if I may make a suggestion it is: Put together all of your thoughts and post them at once. If you have 2 questions than make a post with 2 questions.
PPEE: @Remuthra: Refusal to answer the question will get you killed even faster.
[Borrowing IC voice for a second: While a question may be tough to answer outright refusal is the WORST possible route. Answer the question or explain why you won't beyond simple refusal, such as "It's wifom" or "I already answered that here [link to post]".]
superBlast: Don't ask blatant WIFOM.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 08:13:24 pm
Quote
PPEE: @Remuthra: Refusal to answer the question will get you killed even faster.Well, once someone asks you directly if you're evil, it typically means you'll be random lynched imminently no matter what you say.
Post by: Nerjin on February 20, 2013, 08:14:50 pm
QuotePPEE: @Remuthra: Refusal to answer the question will get you killed even faster.Well, once someone asks you directly if you're evil, it typically means you'll be random lynched imminently no matter what you say.
When someone asks you directly if you're evil you say "No" first of all... Secondly you state "That's a bunch of WIFOM. If I say yes than I'm an idiot. Everyone would say no. Your questions is useless."
Post by: The Soldier on February 20, 2013, 08:17:53 pm
Remuthra, superBlast: Was anything game-relevant said in that exchange?
PPE: One vote isn't going to get you lynched, especially if it has nothing supporting it.
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 08:18:39 pm
First off, Remuthra, you seem to worry about getting killed. Scum don't wanna die really badly, you know? Since there is so few of them, death affects them a hell a lot more then townies. That's the reason you wanna stay alive right?
Preedit... uh... thing: @Nerjin Well atleast a I reason for my random vote.
If i was the doctor, the top person I'd protect would be the town cop if he claimed. Next would be... not sure. Maybe the least scummiest looking active person, i guess.
And that was WIFOM wasn't it? Never intended that. And i got a vote on me already... Yay I'm popular! Ok... I think I should stop joking now.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 08:21:37 pm
Quote
First off, Remuthra, you seem to worry about getting killed. Scum don't wanna die really badly, you know? Since there is so few of them, death affects them a hell a lot more then townies. That's the reason you wanna stay alive right?No, the reason is I played in the SC2 version, and it wasn't the best community. You got lynched a lot for arbitrary reasons, and nobody likes randomly being killed.
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 08:23:28 pm
@Soldier For me... I wanted to see how seriously he acted. And my scum question which turned out was WIFOM was defiantly game relevant.
Post by: Nerjin on February 20, 2013, 08:24:01 pm
First off, Remuthra, you seem to worry about getting killed. Scum don't wanna die really badly, you know? Since there is so few of them, death affects them a hell a lot more then townies. That's the reason you wanna stay alive right?
I'm not picking on you, I'm really not, but this is flawed logic. No one wants to die in this game. It's similar to being a politician and getting elected. All the good intentions in the world do you no favors if you're dead [or not elected for the metaphor.] When someone is threatened with death they will try to put up a defense. This defense is how we actually catch the scum.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 08:25:45 pm
Post by: Nerjin on February 20, 2013, 08:28:44 pm
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 08:47:51 pm
Seriously? That's kinda stupid... I mean the reasons part, not the not wanting to die part. Also i have no idea what SC2 is... well if it's not important then don't worry explaining it to me. Anyways your off the hook from me for now, back to random voting.QuoteFirst off, Remuthra, you seem to worry about getting killed. Scum don't wanna die really badly, you know? Since there is so few of them, death affects them a hell a lot more then townies. That's the reason you wanna stay alive right?No, the reason is I played in the SC2 version, and it wasn't the best community. You got lynched a lot for arbitrary reasons, and nobody likes randomly being killed.
Soldier, Um.... man I suck at thinking up questions.... What do you say about people are really aggressive in this game? Assuming you have a lot more experience at this game then me. You probably do.
@Nerjin, I guess your right. Though that same thing got me killed last time... well along with a ton of other mistakes. Well It seems I'm going about this the wrong way. In the mean time I would like to ask you some questions too... but I can't think of one currently. Expect some later.
@Everyone, Anybody got any good ways to come up with question? I'm having a hard time with that... and the first one to pop in my head turned out to be pretty bad WIFOM.
Post by: The Soldier on February 20, 2013, 08:53:58 pm
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 09:04:04 pm
Actually now i think about it, Remuthra, isn't voting either. Remu, what's your reason for no random vote either?
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 09:06:40 pm
Post by: Nerjin on February 20, 2013, 09:09:37 pm
First off... man I hate not using edit.Seriously? That's kinda stupid... I mean the reasons part, not the not wanting to die part. Also i have no idea what SC2 is... well if it's not important then don't worry explaining it to me. Anyways your off the hook from me for now, back to random voting.First off, Remuthra, you seem to worry about getting killed. Scum don't wanna die really badly, you know? Since there is so few of them, death affects them a hell a lot more then townies. That's the reason you wanna stay alive right?No, the reason is I played in the SC2 version, and it wasn't the best community. You got lynched a lot for arbitrary reasons, and nobody likes randomly being killed.
[/quote]
[/quote]
"That's a stupid reason. I'm going to unvote you." Doesn't make sense to me.
Quote
Soldier, Um.... man I suck at thinking up questions.... What do you say about people are really aggressive in this game? Assuming you have a lot more experience at this game then me. You probably do.
@Nerjin, I guess your right. Though that same thing got me killed last time... well along with a ton of other mistakes. Well It seems I'm going about this the wrong way. In the mean time I would like to ask you some questions too... but I can't think of one currently. Expect some later.
@Everyone, Anybody got any good ways to come up with question? I'm having a hard time with that... and the first one to pop in my head turned out to be pretty bad WIFOM.
Time to non-ic it up again! [A good way to come up with questions is the think of a situation, and aska player what they would do IN that situation. Mind you I'm not an expert but it's a start.]
Fun fact: You don't HAVE to pressure vote all the time. If you're not asking a question putting a bunch of votes on random people isn't really necessary. Though it is the Random vote stage so....
Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
I refuse to allow this. Lurking doesn't help. You need to pressure those who have not said anything and put even MORE pressure on those who have. Now for that answer me a question: Why do you trust him to be town so early in the game? Do you truly believe lurking will help? What exactly did he say to convince you of his town-ness.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 09:16:04 pm
Quote
I refuse to allow this. Lurking doesn't help. You need to pressure those who have not said anything and put even MORE pressure on those who have. Now for that answer me a question: Why do you trust him to be town so early in the game? Do you truly believe lurking will help? What exactly did he say to convince you of his town-nessFirst, I would like to point out that was three separate questions.
1. Not quite sure but he seems pretty trustworthy at this stage. That could definately change later.
2. No, but badly formed accusations won't help much either.
But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?
Post by: The Soldier on February 20, 2013, 09:16:29 pm
Spaghetti7: How would you decide who to protect if you were a doctor?
Shakerag: In your opinion, what is the most damning scumtell?
Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
This isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 09:20:10 pm
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.][/quote]
Double ninja'd, actually. And it's not so much sure of alignment. It's a temporary stance, similar to others taken previously.
Post by: superBlast on February 20, 2013, 09:22:40 pm
Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
I didn't know there was subtleties with random voting. While I understand the want to sit back and observe to find something suspicious that's not helping town as much.... once again I think. Activity helps town a lot more then inactivity.
Preedit: (man it feels weird using that too...)
"That's a stupid reason. I'm going to unvote you." Doesn't make sense to me.The stupid reason is a comment toward the fact the place he played lynched people for arbitrary reasons. The unvote was for the reasons why he does wanna die.
Time to non-ic it up again! [A good way to come up with questions is the think of a situation, and aska player what they would do IN that situation. Mind you I'm not an expert but it's a start.]I guess, though I see no way that helps find scum. Scum or town the answer would be the same.
Post by: The Soldier on February 20, 2013, 09:25:05 pm
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 09:25:53 pm
You missed my question, Remuthra.Was that a serious question back there?
Post by: The Soldier on February 20, 2013, 09:27:17 pm
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 09:28:47 pm
Yes. Why so evasive?I'm not being evasive, I thought your other question was just another way of saying be more serious.
And no, not really.
(SC2 stands for starcraft 2, by the way.)
Post by: Nerjin on February 20, 2013, 09:43:00 pm
QuoteI refuse to allow this. Lurking doesn't help. You need to pressure those who have not said anything and put even MORE pressure on those who have. Now for that answer me a question: Why do you trust him to be town so early in the game? Do you truly believe lurking will help? What exactly did he say to convince you of his town-nessFirst, I would like to point out that was three separate questions.
1. Not quite sure but he seems pretty trustworthy at this stage. That could definately change later.
2. No, but badly formed accusations won't help much either.
But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?
Why is he trustworthy? It's a simple question my friend. I understand the first day jitters. Just try to actually answer the question alright? Some people may take that as evasive. You need to be specific, preferable quoting the posts.
It's less of a badly formed accusation and more of a prod into what you should be doing already. Simply a saying "A is B." get's no one anywhere. You need to back up all assertions with "A is B because C."
QuoteThis isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?Double ninja'd, actually. And it's not so much sure of alignment. It's a temporary stance, similar to others taken previously.
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.]
Fixed that for ya. Now, I'd like to point out that you have sort've hunted for scum but you need to be more forceful. Think of it as a pyramid. At the base EVERYONE is suspect. Then you narrow out a few based on evidence, then a few more, then you grill someone until they either break or assuage your suspicion. What happens from there is obvious.
Yes. Why so evasive?I'm not being evasive, I thought your other question was just another way of saying be more serious.
And no, not really.
(SC2 stands for starcraft 2, by the way.)
As I understand it he asked "When are you going to start hunting?" to which you STILL have not provided an answer.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 10:01:45 pm
Quote
As I understand it he asked "When are you going to start hunting?" to which you STILL have not provided an answerHe never asked me that.
Post by: Nerjin on February 20, 2013, 10:03:21 pm
Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
This isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.
Post by: Remuthra on February 20, 2013, 10:05:25 pm
That one is made invalid because in the post above it I started hunting.Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
This isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.
(going to bed now, don't kill me in my sleep)
Post by: Nerjin on February 20, 2013, 10:24:53 pm
Remuthra That is not gonna fly. You avoided the question because it was invalid? Earlier stating that it was never asked at all? I find that unbelievable. Get your story straight before you start trying to get me to believe it.
Post by: The Soldier on February 21, 2013, 01:54:22 am
I'm not being evasive, I thought your other question was just another way of saying be more serious.
QuoteAs I understand it he asked "When are you going to start hunting?" to which you STILL have not provided an answerHe never asked me that.
And then, you still refuse to answer, citing your softball question to Spaghetti7 that didn't even come with a vote as "hunting." My vote is staying.
Spaghetti7: If you were scum, when would you fakeclaim and why?
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 21, 2013, 02:23:18 am
I've got just enough time for a quick question:
Nerjin: How can you possibly hope to scum hunt by asking everyone a question?
Post by: borno on February 21, 2013, 03:19:15 am
@borno: I have not seen you in a game before that I recall. Sorry, help me fill in the blanks please. What is your general route to hunting scum.I played a while ago, but dropped out because of my lack of free time. Now that I have more free time, I can play more. Anyway, as to your question, I'd probably say being aggressive is best.
But as to my question Nerjin, why do you feel the need to teach people how this game works almost excessively, even borrowing an IC voice? You could speak normally you know. Are you doing it to help the newer players in this game? Or maybe you do it because you're scum and trying to lull everyone into trusting you.
The Soldier:
borno: Would you rather be a Godfather or a Roleblocker as scum? Why?I'd rather be a godfather, since, as you said, you have to be lucky to be successful as roleblocker, whereas the godfather's advantage will work all the time.
Remuthra: What question is so wrong that you chose to ignore it outright?
Spaghetti7: Doctor or Cop? Also, asking questions is scum hunting. More chances to find a slip-up.
superBlast: You seem a bit nervous. In mafia, acting nervous or unconfident is never a good idea, even if you're scum. Even if you feel a bit of doubt with a post, post it anyways, because faltering is a good scumtell.
Post by: Tiruin on February 21, 2013, 05:52:34 am
While I'm not an IC, let me just drop this spiel here for you all to read because...I just feel this would help.
Now that the game has started and I am now responsible for teaching seven of you how to play a game, I will say the following first.
I will be a completely impartial source of advice that I will freely give at every opportunity, whether I am asked for it or I decide to give it on my own. You can trust that everything I have to say will be given in good faith, even if it comes at a personal cost to me in this game. If you do not listen to what I have to say, for any reason, you will severely hamper your ability to learn how to play the game. So, to reiterate,
Listen to what I tell you.
If you don't, then what's the point of me being here?
For those of you who don't know what to do, games usually start with the Random Vote Stage. You should pick a target randomly, vote them, and ask them a question. The sole purpose of this is to get conversation going when there would otherwise be no reason to do that. I'll start.
Ideally you should ask game related questions in the RVS. Asking what kind of flavor of ice cream is a player's favorite does absolutely nothing to help you find scum, which is your primary goal.
And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.
If you're scum, you will obviously have a different goal: Avoid detection until the end of the game. The best way to do this is to look like you are trying to find scum.
Since many of you are going to have no idea what to do and will mangle scumhunting in just about every possible way, it does you no good to hold back. So be bold, and just do the best you can. Ask lots of questions, try to get a good feel for how the game is played. I'll be there to help you when you go wrong.
Additionally, before anybody else does anything, I will stress the importance of activity. You should be as active as possible. A good guideline is to get one good post in a day, but if you can post productively more often than that it's generally a good idea to do so. As a player, town or scum, being active and visible is very much an asset, as you're out there making yourself readable, and this is considered a town quality. While there are very good personal benefits to being active, the reverse is detrimental to the whole game. Low activity makes games hard to play or outright kills them. This is fun for absolutely no one, so make a good effort and be active.
If you played a Beginner's Game before you probably recognize this spiel, but it's good all the same.
Have fun you all.
Post by: superBlast on February 21, 2013, 09:47:47 am
superBlast: You seem a bit nervous. In mafia, acting nervous or unconfident is never a good idea, even if you're scum. Even if you feel a bit of doubt with a post, post it anyways, because faltering is a good scumtell.Well this might haunt me for a long time in mafia, since I'm never confident about anything I'm not 100% sure I'm right about it.
Now there's more people to ask, Borno, you're my next random voting target!
And for once I actually have a question in my head before writing this! I'm assuming your vote for Nerjin isn't random, and the blue on my and Remu's names means your suspicious of us. So why'd you vote Nerjin over me or Remu?
Post by: Nerjin on February 21, 2013, 11:21:08 am
Nerjin: How can you possibly hope to scum hunt by asking everyone a question?
The simple fact of the matter is that I always ask everyone a question. Based on their answer I hone in on them to see if there's more to them or not. It's a much better approach than picking a single person at random and then just pursuing them the entire time. This way I have some sort of read on everyone. Plus it helps get people started into the game. From what I've seen some people don't start playing seriously until they've been asked a question.
Nerjin:@borno: I have not seen you in a game before that I recall. Sorry, help me fill in the blanks please. What is your general route to hunting scum.I played a while ago, but dropped out because of my lack of free time. Now that I have more free time, I can play more. Anyway, as to your question, I'd probably say being aggressive is best.
But as to my question Nerjin, why do you feel the need to teach people how this game works almost excessively, even borrowing an IC voice? You could speak normally you know. Are you doing it to help the newer players in this game? Or maybe you do it because you're scum and trying to lull everyone into trusting you.
Because as of yet the IC's haven't popped in. I have more experience in BM's than some of the other players and I want them to be eased into the mafia experience so that they will continue to play for a long time. You are right that I could speak normally however the IC voice is used to indicate that what you're saying is simply game advice. Make of that what you will. Once the IC's themselves pop on and start handing out advice I plan on dropping the "Sort-of less Inexperience challenged but still new to the game" thing.
Post by: Shakerag on February 21, 2013, 11:43:15 am
[Hello everyone, and welcome to Beginner's Mafia. This is where we're all here to learn how to play and eventually be welcomed into the "main" games without Dariush having an aneurysm. When I speak to you all as an IC, I will be doing so in square brackets. My "IC voice" is for giving impartial advice, so you can trust that what I say while using it is not influenced by my role in the game, nor will it be used to further my win condition. As this is a learning game, now is the time to be bold and try to play as best as you can. Don't focus on winning so much as *learning*. When (not if) you all make mistakes, the ICs are here to (usually) gently correct you. I will beat you over the head with a clue-by-four if needed, however. Always feel free to ask questions to the ICs if there is something you don't understand - that's what we're here for.]
[Because it's going to be a bitch to quote everyone, I'll often just use a "name @ ###" format, referring to a specific post number. Everyone, please make sure you either quote with the author's name, or have some definitive way for others reading your post to know exactly what source you're addressing in your post. Or I will hurt you.]
[So, in chronological order...]
Remuthra @ 36: [It's good to answer questions, but try to ask at least one of your own when posting. This keeps discussion flowing and prevents the game activity from dying out.]
[This is as good a time as any to remind you all to read all of the rules, guides, etc. noted in the first post of the thread. If you haven't done so already, save us all some headaches and do it now.]
superBlast @ 39: [Usually, when you randomly vote someone in the random vote stage (RVS), you ask them a question as well. Your questions are ... lacking. If you really need help coming up with something relevant to ask in the RVS, take a gander at a previous beginner's game or two and see what kinds of questions were asked then.]
superBlast/Remuthra: [While a little humor is generally acceptable in games because we're not all super serious all the time, do try to limit it to keep your signal to noise ratio from dropping too much.]
Remuthra @ 46: [The standard response to "are you scum?" is "no". No one gets lynched for that. You can add on "are you?" if you're feeling particularly snarky. Avoiding answering questions, yes even the stupid ones, is a bad idea.]
@Shakerag: As a pillar of the mafia community you've seen a lot of 'battles'. If it came down to it who would you want to be in a lylo situation with you if you were scum excluding Irony Owl?Hah. It's hard to pick names, but I'd say that as scum in lylo, I'd want anyone who indicated that they got a town read on me during the game.
Remuthra @ 60: If everyone just sat back until they saw something suspicious, do you think anything productive would happen?
@62 : Badly formed accusations at least get something done. Unlike sitting back and observing. Hell, I like to throw around bad accusations at people. Seeing how they react to them can help to identify scumtells.
Shakerag: In your opinion, what is the most damning scumtell?Mmmmhh. I'd have to say being caught in a lie tends to be the most damning. Dodging questions is right up there too.
Remuthra @ 69: [What part of "no edits" was unclear in the rules?]
Okay, now on to some questions.
Nerjin: What's your favorite role in Mafia?
The Soldier: How would you pick a target as a mafia roleblocker?
superBlast: How would you pick a target as a town cop?
borno: Do you put value in analyzing voting patterns? Yes or no, why?
Lord Allagon: If someone claimed doctor, how would you decide whether to trust they're telling the truth?
Spaghetti7: If you had a one-shot day inspect, when would you use it?
Remuthra: If you were scum, would you rather want to know who the doctor is, or who the cop is?
IronyOwl: How do you plan on terrorizing this batch of newbies?
Post by: Nerjin on February 21, 2013, 11:49:40 am
Remuthra @ 69: [What part of "no edits" was unclear in the rules?]
... Didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Doesn't he get mod-killed for this?
Quote from: Still Shakerag's post
Nerjin: What's your favorite role in Mafia?I like God-father and Cop... Though I'd have to say I like God-father just a bit more because being scum is fun.
Post by: superBlast on February 21, 2013, 12:02:52 pm
superBlast: How would you pick a target as a town cop?
First off I'd pick someone who I haven't investigated yet, then look at who took part in the last lynch if lynch turned up town (since there is a good chance scum would be among them), and from there investigate the one that was most suspicious to me.
Here's a question back, your scum that everyone generally believes is town and your partner currently the town's center of attention and about to be lynched. Let's make it Day 1 as well. What would you do it that situation?
Post by: Shakerag on February 21, 2013, 12:14:33 pm
[Is beginner's game. Is bound to happen at least once. If it keeps happening though ...]Remuthra @ 69: [What part of "no edits" was unclear in the rules?]
... Didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Doesn't he get mod-killed for this?
Here's a question back, your scum that everyone generally believes is town and your partner currently the town's center of attention and about to be lynched. Let's make it Day 1 as well. What would you do it that situation?Wave goodbye to my partner in scumchat and bus them without remorse. Looking for advice about what to do with your scumbuddy Remuthra, superBlast?
Post by: Teneb on February 21, 2013, 12:21:07 pm
[Is beginner's game. Is bound to happen at least once. If it keeps happening though ...]Remuthra @ 69: [What part of "no edits" was unclear in the rules?]
... Didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Doesn't he get mod-killed for this?
If it happens again, there will be a modkill. DO NOT EDIT. EVER.
Votecount soon.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 21, 2013, 12:26:17 pm
@Spaghetti7: When would be the best time for a doctor/cop role claim in your opinion and why?I would claim doctor/cop when the votes are beginning to go on a bandwagon on someone I didn't believe should be lynched. I would use it to claim another target of my choosing scum, and to hopefully save the town from going under.
Spaghetti7: How would you decide who to protect if you were a doctor?I would withhold using my actions until I had some idea of the people around me. I wouldn't want to use such a useful action on a scum, so I'd save it until I had established power and alignment of the other players, then I would use it to protect townies and (hopefully) those others with roles.
But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?I would deflect it to other people. Build up a good case against someone else, and push it hard if votes started falling on my head. If that failed, then I would push against those leading the bandwagon against me and try to expose them while they're weak on the offence. Try to reveal them to the people following for the wagon.
Spaghetti7: If you were scum, when would you fakeclaim and why?If I were scum, I would use it in the later game as soon as suspicion started to arise. If you use it when you are about to be lynched it just looks desperate, but if it's used when someone starts to put the pieces together it could cloud others' vision with that and turn their attention elsewhere.
Spaghetti7: Doctor or Cop? Also, asking questions is scum hunting. More chances to find a slip-up.Cop. As I answered one of the questions above about how I wouldn't use the Doctor's ability for a while, I would be able to use the Cop from the start. It would also help me to judge how I knew someone was scum, and it could help against people I hadn't considered yet.
Spaghetti7: If you had a one-shot day inspect, when would you use it?I would wait for a bandwagon to begin, and use it on the leader of the attack. This would help me know whether scum were going for offense or defense.
Alright, Unvote Nerjin.
borno, do you find it more scummy if someone is very active or not so? Why?
Post by: superBlast on February 21, 2013, 12:36:07 pm
Damn why does it seems like all my questions make people suspicious of me >.>Here's a question back, your scum that everyone generally believes is town and your partner currently the town's center of attention and about to be lynched. Let's make it Day 1 as well. What would you do it that situation?Wave goodbye to my partner in scumchat and bus them without remorse. Looking for advice about what to do with your scumbuddy Remuthra, superBlast?
And to answer you, no I'm not but if you turn out scum then bussing is viable an option for you. I'll keep that in mind when we catch one of the scum.
Post by: Teneb on February 21, 2013, 12:42:39 pm
“Calm down, Magus Imiknorris. The traitors will be found.”
“What if they are not? What if they kill everyone in there and forge markings on the corpses of loyalists?”
“Would you rather have me kill many of our best and most loyal magisters so that we can find the few traitors in that room?”
“Yes, Archmage, that is exactly what I suggest. “
“And by doing so, we’d weaken ourselves and play right into the Cabal’s hands. No, Urist, they shall not be harmed, not before dusk.”
Votecount:
Nerjin(1): borno
The Soldier(0):
superBlast(0):
borno(1):superBlast
Lord Allagon(0):
Sphagetti7(0):
Remuthra(3):The Soldier, Nerjin, Shakerag
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: Lord Allagon, Sphagetti7. Remuthra, IronyOwl
Post by: superBlast on February 21, 2013, 12:51:53 pm
I would withhold using my actions until I had some idea of the people around me. I wouldn't want to use such a useful action on a scum, so I'd save it until I had established power and alignment of the other players, then I would use it to protect townies and (hopefully) those others with roles.This doesn't make much sense to me. If you used up your action on scum then it's the exact same as not even using it. While protecting some random person gives you a chance to save them and if there is no night kill then you have yourself a confirmed townie (unless the scum decided not to NK and that's rare apparently). It's not like you can only use it one time only, then that would make more sense.
Not using it is just wasting your ability.
Post by: Shakerag on February 21, 2013, 12:55:59 pm
And yet, you've not explicitly denied being neither scum nor having Remuthra being your partner. You just denied that you're looking for advice. Tell Urist Imiknorris to coach his scumlings better for me. I'd vote you, but Remuthra is looking scummier right now.Damn why does it seems like all my questions make people suspicious of me >.>Here's a question back, your scum that everyone generally believes is town and your partner currently the town's center of attention and about to be lynched. Let's make it Day 1 as well. What would you do it that situation?Wave goodbye to my partner in scumchat and bus them without remorse. Looking for advice about what to do with your scumbuddy Remuthra, superBlast?
And to answer you, no I'm not but if you turn out scum then bussing is viable an option for you. I'll keep that in mind when we catch one of the scum.
Sorry about a double post but I forgot that spaghetti even posted when i made my last post.[This. In this game there is no real reason to not use your ability as a doctor at night. Town doesn't have any killing roles, and the doctor in this game doesn't have a penalty for targeting scum. Do note that in non-beginner's games this may not hold true.]I would withhold using my actions until I had some idea of the people around me. I wouldn't want to use such a useful action on a scum, so I'd save it until I had established power and alignment of the other players, then I would use it to protect townies and (hopefully) those others with roles.This doesn't make much sense to me. If you used up your action on scum then it's the exact same as not even using it. While protecting some random person gives you a chance to save them and if there is no night kill then you have yourself a confirmed townie (unless the scum decided not to NK and that's rare apparently). It's not like you can only use it one time only, then that would make more sense.
Not using it is just wasting your ability.
[Also, double posts (and triple, and quadruple...) are okay due to the no edits rule.]
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 21, 2013, 01:33:07 pm
Sorry yeah, I just realised that. Let me answer that again. I would use my ability with random.org at first until I saved someone, at which point I would claim doctor if others were doing so to look like generic fakeclaimer. Then I would cycle my ability unless I knew someone else had an important role.Sorry about a double post but I forgot that spaghetti even posted when i made my last post.[This. In this game there is no real reason to not use your ability as a doctor at night. Town doesn't have any killing roles, and the doctor in this game doesn't have a penalty for targeting scum. Do note that in non-beginner's games this may not hold true.]I would withhold using my actions until I had some idea of the people around me. I wouldn't want to use such a useful action on a scum, so I'd save it until I had established power and alignment of the other players, then I would use it to protect townies and (hopefully) those others with roles.This doesn't make much sense to me. If you used up your action on scum then it's the exact same as not even using it. While protecting some random person gives you a chance to save them and if there is no night kill then you have yourself a confirmed townie (unless the scum decided not to NK and that's rare apparently). It's not like you can only use it one time only, then that would make more sense.
Not using it is just wasting your ability.
[Also, double posts (and triple, and quadruple...) are okay due to the no edits rule.]
Post by: superBlast on February 21, 2013, 01:43:04 pm
Damn why does it seems like all my questions make people suspicious of me >.>And yet, you've not explicitly denied being neither scum nor having Remuthra being your partner. You just denied that you're looking for advice. Tell Urist Imiknorris to coach his scumlings better for me. I'd vote you, but Remuthra is looking scummier right now.
And to answer you, no I'm not but if you turn out scum then bussing is viable an option for you. I'll keep that in mind when we catch one of the scum.
What? You didn't see the part that says "when we catch one of the scum"? Also that no was no to everything. I didn't say no I'm not looking for advice but it seems your assuming I did. I'll be sure to be ultra specific with you from now on.
You know I forgot scum got there own IC. Thanks for reminding me on that fact because If I was scum looking for advice then I could've just asked him.
Post by: The Soldier on February 21, 2013, 04:16:42 pm
Shakerag: I see. As a roleblocker, I would look to see if anyone was being passive as town and block them, since it makes sense for power roles to not want to draw attention to themselves. If there is no one that fits that description, I'd randomly block someone not getting NK'd.
Spaghetti7: superBlast and Shakerag already commented on your original response to my doctor question, and I agree with them. For my other question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4047774#msg4047774), here's a followup: what would you fakeclaim as? Doctor or cop?
Lord Allagon: Say it's LYLO, and someone just claimed doctor. Do you trust/believe them? What if they claimed cop instead?
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 21, 2013, 04:47:41 pm
Spaghetti7: superBlast and Shakerag already commented on your original response to my doctor question, and I agree with them. For my other question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4047774#msg4047774), here's a followup: what would you fakeclaim as? Doctor or cop?I would choose to fakeclaim as a cop. What this would hopefully do is start some people trying to appear less scummy to me or concentrate my focus on other people. If I could detect any sign of someone trying to not be "examined" by me, I could then grill 'em a bit more about why this was.
Post by: The Soldier on February 21, 2013, 05:15:08 pm
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 21, 2013, 05:18:04 pm
Spaghetti: Are you saying you would fakeclaim when you are town?Quite possibly. It could be quite useful for scum hunting. If, by this, you imply you wanted a response from the scum side then I would simply not claim. Other than a desperate attempt to ward off suspicion, I don't think I could use it usefully.
Post by: The Soldier on February 21, 2013, 05:20:37 pm
Post by: superBlast on February 21, 2013, 05:31:27 pm
Soldier, somebody you have a null read on sarcastically says "Yeah I'm the scum! Lynch my ass!" without a some sort of reason, would you lynch he over that?
Spaghetti, your not voting, who do you think is scummiest right now?
Remu, your not voting either, who do you think is scummiest right now?
Shak, you got cop/doctor and someone claims the same role as you. Do you counter claim right then or do you wait a little first before counter claiming?
Nerjin, the cop claimed and pointed out someone is scum and then that same guy also claims cop and says the first guy is sum. Which one do you think is most likely to be lying?
Everyone else who hasn't posted, where you guys at?
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 21, 2013, 05:34:28 pm
Spaghetti: The problem I see with fakeclaiming as town is this: Say you claim cop. The REAL cop then claims. Now there's a problem: you look like major scum, and the real cop is revealed to the scumteam. Or, if the real cop claims later, he'll be grilled as to why he didn't claim earlier when you did.Somehow I fail to see how this danger disappears if you scum fakeclaim. The real cop can still claim with you, and you still look real scummy. Only issue is, you actually ARE scum.
Post by: Nerjin on February 21, 2013, 05:36:01 pm
Nerjin, the cop claimed and pointed out someone is scum and then that same guy also claims cop and says the first guy is sum. Which one do you think is most likely to be lying?
Just based on the wording I'd say the second cop. But it really depends on what they've said up until this point.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 21, 2013, 05:39:01 pm
Spaghetti, your not voting, who do you think is scummiest right now?I'm withholding for now, but have my FoS on the rather dormant borno. However, right now I would say Remu looked the most scummy, for the reasons brought out in page 5 of this thread. He was avoiding questions and giving short and unsubstantative replies to questions, never managing to justify if he is town.
Post by: superBlast on February 21, 2013, 05:52:38 pm
Yeah at the point your pretty screwed if the cop counter claimed, but if you lie well enough the town will believe you over the real cop and get them to lynch him. Though after that they'll know you lied and will lynch you in a heartbeat the next day. But even if they don't believe you, atleast your scum buddy will know who to NK that night. Even better is if there is no cop to counter claim you then you can pretend to be the cop the whole game and have say your scum buddy is innocent and the town will believe you. That almost makes you set for the whole game.Spaghetti: The problem I see with fakeclaiming as town is this: Say you claim cop. The REAL cop then claims. Now there's a problem: you look like major scum, and the real cop is revealed to the scumteam. Or, if the real cop claims later, he'll be grilled as to why he didn't claim earlier when you did.Somehow I fail to see how this danger disappears if you scum fakeclaim. The real cop can still claim with you, and you still look real scummy. Only issue is, you actually ARE scum.
Post by: Shakerag on February 21, 2013, 05:55:19 pm
Sorry yeah, I just realised that. Let me answer that again. I would use my ability with random.org at first until I saved someone, at which point I would claim doctor if others were doing so to look like generic fakeclaimer. Then I would cycle my ability unless I knew someone else had an important role.[Not the best way to do it, IMO. As a doctor, you really want to try and save whomever the scum may be trying to kill. A strong player, or anyone giving off indications of having a power role are better targets than a random one.]
What? You didn't see the part that says "when we catch one of the scum"? Also that no was no to everything. I didn't say no I'm not looking for advice but it seems your assuming I did. I'll be sure to be ultra specific with you from now on.So? A scum player could say the very same thing. Stating "hey guyz, I wants to catch da scumz" doesn't make you town. Also, I didn't mean advice in general, but advice about how to deal with a very visible scummate. As in, I was trying to see if you'd slip up in your response. Also stating that you forgot there was a scum IC doesn't automatically clear you as well.
You know I forgot scum got there own IC. Thanks for reminding me on that fact because If I was scum looking for advice then I could've just asked him.
[Being very specific with your wording is a generally good thing toward all players. If you are vague in your posts, you can very much expect everyone else is going to pick them apart looking for scumtells. I always read over my post before I post it to avoid such things whether as town or scum.]
The Soldier: Do you have previous mafia experience? You seem to be rather on the ball.
Spaghetti: The problem I see with fakeclaiming as town is this: Say you claim cop. The REAL cop then claims. Now there's a problem: you look like major scum, and the real cop is revealed to the scumteam. Or, if the real cop claims later, he'll be grilled as to why he didn't claim earlier when you did.[Also this. Fakeclaiming as town often leads to bad situations. If you're caught fakeclaiming, you're going to hang almost 100% of the time. There are very, very rare situations in which you'd want to do so (as town), and they're outside of the scope of a beginner's game.]
Shak, you got cop/doctor and someone claims the same role as you. Do you counter claim right then or do you wait a little first before counter claimingI assume this is addressed to me? At least abbreviate to Shake if you can't be bothered to type out eight characters.
I would say that it depends. Claiming power roles early is almost always a bad idea. If we're talking D1/D2, I'd not counter-claim and keep a close eye on the claimer and who they interact with. If it's D3 or later (generally speaking), I'd likely counter-claim right away.
[Generally speaking, if you're scum and fakeclaiming, you're already somewhat backed into a corner, so you don't have a whole lot to lose by trying. It takes a skilled player (and certain kinds of game set-ups) to fakeclaim as scum earlier in the game and/or when you're not in immediate danger.]Spaghetti: The problem I see with fakeclaiming as town is this: Say you claim cop. The REAL cop then claims. Now there's a problem: you look like major scum, and the real cop is revealed to the scumteam. Or, if the real cop claims later, he'll be grilled as to why he didn't claim earlier when you did.Somehow I fail to see how this danger disappears if you scum fakeclaim. The real cop can still claim with you, and you still look real scummy. Only issue is, you actually ARE scum.
[And what do you intend to do about that feeling that Remuthra is scummy? PROTIP: The wrong answer is "doing nothing" or "waiting to see if they act more scummy".]Spaghetti, your not voting, who do you think is scummiest right now?I'm withholding for now, but have my FoS on the rather dormant borno. However, right now I would say Remu looked the most scummy, for the reasons brought out in page 5 of this thread. He was avoiding questions and giving short and unsubstantative replies to questions, never managing to justify if he is town.
Post by: superBlast on February 21, 2013, 06:23:50 pm
So? A scum player could say the very same thing. Stating "hey guyz, I wants to catch da scumz" doesn't make you town. Also, I didn't mean advice in general, but advice about how to deal with a very visible scummate. As in, I was trying to see if you'd slip up in your response. Also stating that you forgot there was a scum IC doesn't automatically clear you as well.
So? A town player will say the very same thing. Stating, "We need to catch whoever the scum is," doesn't make me scummy either. So at best that should be null... oh wait... that's bad defense on my part then since I brought that up. Alright got me on that.
Though I never thought I'd have to explicitly state I am town or I'm not scum. No one else has including you. I haven't seen anyone else say "I'm town so don't go after me!" or, "I'm not teh scumz so don't vote me!" so why do you want me specifically to say it?
Also the point about me forgetting the scum IC was... well I really did forget about him. My real point was what I said after that. If I was scum I'd be asking him for scum advice and not asking in the game. That's defiantly a stupid idea.
Post by: The Soldier on February 21, 2013, 06:30:32 pm
Here's a few questions for some of you:Kind of a tough question. If it's obvious sarcasm, probably not. Otherwise, I'd pressure him and lynch him if there isn't anyone scummier than him.
Soldier, somebody you have a null read on sarcastically says "Yeah I'm the scum! Lynch my ass!" without a some sort of reason, would you lynch he over that?
The Soldier: Do you have previous mafia experience? You seem to be rather on the ball.I played a tiny bit on other sites. I read a ton of games here, especially BMs, so I could hopefully skip as much of the "WTF am I doing" stage as possible.
Shakerag addressed this, but I never said fakeclaiming wasn't a gamble. However, it's got a better payoff for scum than for town. If the fakeclaimer has blended in sufficiently well, the town will be inclined to believe them. This is extra true if a) the real cop has been scummy; or b) there is no real cop to counterclaim.Spaghetti: The problem I see with fakeclaiming as town is this: Say you claim cop. The REAL cop then claims. Now there's a problem: you look like major scum, and the real cop is revealed to the scumteam. Or, if the real cop claims later, he'll be grilled as to why he didn't claim earlier when you did.Somehow I fail to see how this danger disappears if you scum fakeclaim. The real cop can still claim with you, and you still look real scummy. Only issue is, you actually ARE scum.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 22, 2013, 01:46:27 am
Also, I do now have an important question for Remu: If you were scum and being strongly attacked, would you attack back or stop posting and wait for attention to deflect?
Post by: borno on February 22, 2013, 02:08:47 am
Fair enough, I guess. Unvote Nerjin.Nerjin:@borno: I have not seen you in a game before that I recall. Sorry, help me fill in the blanks please. What is your general route to hunting scum.I played a while ago, but dropped out because of my lack of free time. Now that I have more free time, I can play more. Anyway, as to your question, I'd probably say being aggressive is best.
But as to my question Nerjin, why do you feel the need to teach people how this game works almost excessively, even borrowing an IC voice? You could speak normally you know. Are you doing it to help the newer players in this game? Or maybe you do it because you're scum and trying to lull everyone into trusting you.
Because as of yet the IC's haven't popped in. I have more experience in BM's than some of the other players and I want them to be eased into the mafia experience so that they will continue to play for a long time. You are right that I could speak normally however the IC voice is used to indicate that what you're saying is simply game advice. Make of that what you will. Once the IC's themselves pop on and start handing out advice I plan on dropping the "Sort-of less Inexperience challenged but still new to the game" thing.
Spaghetti7:
borno, do you find it more scummy if someone is very active or not so? Why?The lurker. Most scum, especially in a game like this, try to stay quiet as to not draw attention to themselves.
Sorry for not posting often, school and all that. But now it's the weekends, so I should be able to post more often. Also, if you're suspicious of Remuthra, why not vote for him?Spaghetti, your not voting, who do you think is scummiest right now?I'm withholding for now, but have my FoS on the rather dormant borno. However, right now I would say Remu looked the most scummy, for the reasons brought out in page 5 of this thread. He was avoiding questions and giving short and unsubstantative replies to questions, never managing to justify if he is town.
superBlast:
Now there's more people to ask, Borno, you're my next random voting target!It was a pressure vote. I was suspicious with the way he acted like an IC, but I was also suspicious of you and Remuthra. Since I only had one vote, I decided to put it on him and point out both of your errors. Also I had posted a question to him, and generally voting with your questions makes them feel more compelled to answer.
And for once I actually have a question in my head before writing this! I'm assuming your vote for Nerjin isn't random, and the blue on my and Remu's names means your suspicious of us. So why'd you vote Nerjin over me or Remu?
Also,
Also the point about me forgetting the scum IC was... well I really did forget about him. My real point was what I said after that. If I was scum I'd be asking him for scum advice and not asking in the game. That's defiantly a stupid idea.That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?
Shakerag:
borno: Do you put value in analyzing voting patterns? Yes or no, why?Well, yes. If someone was changing their votes often/hesitant with voting/OMGUSing, it would be a dead giveaway for scum, and a fatal error for town, and so its always a good idea to keep an eye on people's voting.
The Soldier: If you were the deciding vote between to people, would you chose to lynch the active player who has made a few scumtells, or the lurker who so far hasn't made any tells, but this is mostly because they haven't posted much at all.
Post by: The Soldier on February 22, 2013, 02:32:09 am
superBlast: Who is the most suspicious right now? Why so much WIFOM in your posts?
borno: I'd get rid of the lurker, since deliberately lurking is a definite scumtell, whereas most other tells can be ambiguous (especially with newbies). I admit I have some bias against people who join games and then don't participate, though.
A question for you: do you consider superBlast's mistakes worse than Remuthra's earlier evasiveness?
Post by: borno on February 22, 2013, 04:26:11 am
borno:The evasiveness of Remuthra is definitely scummy, but I'm finding superBlast quite scummy also with all his mistakes, and I'm chasing him because having only one person to pursue is not really good if it can be helped in this game, because in D2 we have another person to chase after right in front of us.
A question for you: do you consider superBlast's mistakes worse than Remuthra's earlier evasiveness?
Post by: Nerjin on February 22, 2013, 06:38:59 am
Lord Allagon to borrow some language "Get your ass off the lurk-train and onto the forum."
Lurking doesn't help anyone. Maybe you think you'll hide in the back and let everyone else hunt scum for you but that doesn't help anyone. You signed up for mafia, I bid ye to at least say hello to us all.
Post by: Shakerag on February 22, 2013, 12:50:12 pm
Alright I'll call you Shake then.Wonderful.
Though I never thought I'd have to explicitly state I am town or I'm not scum. No one else has including you. I haven't seen anyone else say "I'm town so don't go after me!" or, "I'm not teh scumz so don't vote me!" so why do you want me specifically to say it?Because I insinuated that you're scum, possibly with Remuthra. Not immediately denying that was suspect.
Kind of a tough question. If it's obvious sarcasm, probably not. Otherwise, I'd pressure him and lynch him if there isn't anyone scummier than him.[As a note, sarcasm tends to not go over well during games. Unless one makes it obvious by including "sarcasm tags".]
I played a tiny bit on other sites. I read a ton of games here, especially BMs, so I could hopefully skip as much of the "WTF am I doing" stage as possible.[It seems to have served you well. Carry on.]
Alright, I can see how that could be helpful.[Don't just ask questions to semi-lurkers. Get in there and get your hands dirty with the active players too.]
Also, I do now have an important question for Remu: If you were scum and being strongly attacked, would you attack back or stop posting and wait for attention to deflect?
Shakerag:Okay, that's interesting too, but I was apparently a bit vague on my question. Do you put stock in analyzing how the votes stand at the end of each day, across multiple days?borno: Do you put value in analyzing voting patterns? Yes or no, why?Well, yes. If someone was changing their votes often/hesitant with voting/OMGUSing, it would be a dead giveaway for scum, and a fatal error for town, and so its always a good idea to keep an eye on people's voting.
borno: I'd get rid of the lurker, since deliberately lurking is a definite scumtell, whereas most other tells can be ambiguous (especially with newbies).[Not necessarily true. I've been known to semi-lurk as town with a power role. Being able to stay under the scum's radar (to avoid getting NKed) and to some degree town's radar (to avoid getting mislynched) keeps you alive longer to use your ability more. So, by that token, as scum if you see someone not on your team lurking, they may have a power role. But even if you're trying to "stay off the radar", do keep up at least some activity for the sake of the game.]
Nerjin: [If you have time to poke at lurkers, you have time to poke at active players too.]
Post by: Nerjin on February 22, 2013, 12:53:16 pm
Nerjin: [If you have time to poke at lurkers, you have time to poke at active players too.]
While true I feel I've done rather well with the active players. So far nothing is striking me and I'd like, nay desire, nay need, nay demand more input from those who haven't at this point.
Post by: Shakerag on February 22, 2013, 12:59:08 pm
And so you're just going to wait for the scumslips to fall into your lap? While resting a (presumably) pressure vote on a lurker? I know you've got some experience under your belt, so what do you think of me calling you out as activelurking scum, Nerjin?Nerjin: [If you have time to poke at lurkers, you have time to poke at active players too.]
While true I feel I've done rather well with the active players. So far nothing is striking me and I'd like, nay desire, nay need, nay demand more input from those who haven't at this point.
Post by: Nerjin on February 22, 2013, 01:03:30 pm
And so you're just going to wait for the scumslips to fall into your lap? While resting a (presumably) pressure vote on a lurker? I know you've got some experience under your belt, so what do you think of me calling you out as activelurking scum, Nerjin?Nerjin: [If you have time to poke at lurkers, you have time to poke at active players too.]
While true I feel I've done rather well with the active players. So far nothing is striking me and I'd like, nay desire, nay need, nay demand more input from those who haven't at this point.
I think you don't truly believe it as I have been rather active and scum-hunting. I think that you're putting that vote on me in order to try to get me to slip up and say something damning.
Post by: Teneb on February 22, 2013, 01:08:13 pm
“Excuse me?”
“Why did you lock nine magisters in a room, Archmage?”
“It’s… part of an experiment.”
“What kind of experiment would require nine of our own to be sealed in a room? Didn’t the Cabal split from us because they wanted to do such ‘experiments’?”
“I’m afraid I cannot say more on the matter.”
“This is not over, Archmage”
“No, Tiruin, it is over, and we shall not speak of it again.”
Nerjin(1):Shakerag
The Soldier(0):
superBlast(1):borno
borno(1):superBlast
Lord Allagon(1):Nerjin
Sphagetti7(0):
Remuthra(1):The Soldier
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: Lord Allagon, Sphagetti7, Remutrha, IronyOwl
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 22, 2013, 01:44:04 pm
Post by: superBlast on February 22, 2013, 01:47:25 pm
Let me answer question first. If I was scum, If i think I could convince my attack I'm atleast null at best, I'd go for the lurker to try make eyes go off of me. If I'm convinced I can't shake him off me and he's gonna end up getting me lynched, I'd NK him.Also the point about me forgetting the scum IC was... well I really did forget about him. My real point was what I said after that. If I was scum I'd be asking him for scum advice and not asking in the game. That's defiantly a stupid idea.That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?
Now on to the WIFOM part:
More accidental WIFOM... great... -_-
I guess it is WIFOM but I didn't think of it that way. If I was seriously scum, but i didn't ask the scum IC for scum advice or if I seriously scum, but i'm trying to ask for scum advice in the game (even trying to camouflage it somehow to make look like I'm really not) is incredibly stupid. The first one renders the scum IC useless and is stupid because I'm not using a resource that can help me win the game. The second one gives me away to the town that I'm scum. It's WIFOM because that makes me neither town nor scum so that makes it null and a completely useless defense and a completely useless fact to make a case and yet that's the only thing you have on me. Yes it's suspicious but on it's own I think it's completely useless. And now your probably gonna say that's really defensive of me, supicously defensive of me. Fine I don't mind it's what you just said makes me frustrated because it feels like your missing something blatantly obvious to me. Which would be it if I really wasn't using the scum IC for advice or that if I was asking for scum advice in the game thread then I'd be incredibly stupid and I completely deserve to get lynched because I was so stupid... I mean it's so stupid I wouldn't think anyone would actually do it.
I need to calm down... breath in... breath out.... lol.
@Soldier: Why the so much WIFOM? Because it's not on purpose. The first one about being scum question toward Remu, all he had to do was say no and I would've moved on from him without thinking much into it since the correct answer is no. I never thought of it as WIFOM until Nerjin pointed it out. And that was his first case of being evasive... actually my questions before that he didn't answer seriously now that I think about it. And my second case of WIFOM was accidental as well.
Who am I most suspicious of right now? Remu defiantly for what you guys pointed out. As a fellow newbie... er... well he actually got games under his belt.... anyways I understand the want to sit back and observe since everything is confusing as hell... so I'm not suspicious of him for that, but I am suspicious of him for being evasive. Didn't notice at first until you guys started pointing it out but he was even evasive of my questions at the beginning of the game. I wasn't being 100% serious at the time but now I am. Also I'd like to point out his last post was over a day ago... so i puts him into lurker status in my book.
So I'm gonna stop voting random people now and and vote who I suspect and that would be Remu.
Vote Remuthra
@Shake: I didn't get it in my last post but while I was typing something toward Borno, I realized what the point of your question was to see if I deny being scum or partners with Remu. Which yeah you got me on that since I didn't immediately deny it. I didn't even think of it like that and thought a no as in "no your wrong" would be good enough. Since i didn't get that it was felt like you was going after me and was scum trying to build a case on a townie. But now that I see it, I'm putting you on my townie side since I can see more "scumhunting" and less "specifically going after me". Though of course your not 100% off the hook... no one is until death or cop says otherwise.
Preedit: Man 5 posts pop up while I was typing. Good thing only one has anything to do with me.
Shake: Yeah i figured that out already if you read the above.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 22, 2013, 01:57:55 pm
Nerjin, Tiruin, and Shakerag seem to have covered most of the basics, so I'll just add that if you're having trouble thinking of questions, you're probably overthinking things. You want to ask players questions that help you get a better grasp of them. While that obviously makes some questions better than others, there isn't any particular magic involved; you just think of something that someone might tell you more about themselves by answering.
Nerjin:
@Irony Owl: Same question as Shakerag but with you in his place and being unable to take Shake.You mean who would I want my scumbuddy to be? Probably you, since you seem to have a very good grasp of what's going on. Not sure you needed another BM, really.
Sphagetti:
You'd deflect scum's attention onto someone else by building a good case on them?But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?I would deflect it to other people. Build up a good case against someone else, and push it hard if votes started falling on my head. If that failed, then I would push against those leading the bandwagon against me and try to expose them while they're weak on the offence. Try to reveal them to the people following for the wagon.
How would you define the "leader?" Whoever voted first? Whoever was pushing hardest? Something else? What if someone was voting them well before it became a bandwagon, or the current one pushing them hardest didn't always have that honor?Spaghetti7: If you had a one-shot day inspect, when would you use it?I would wait for a bandwagon to begin, and use it on the leader of the attack. This would help me know whether scum were going for offense or defense.
Alright, Unvote Nerjin.This seems like an awfully weak question, doesn't it? Were you hoping for an answer beyond the obvious?
borno, do you find it more scummy if someone is very active or not so? Why?
borno:
Lining up an easy D2 target already, eh? What do you think of prepping a D2 lynch before you've even seen the results of your D1 bandwagon?borno:The evasiveness of Remuthra is definitely scummy, but I'm finding superBlast quite scummy also with all his mistakes, and I'm chasing him because having only one person to pursue is not really good if it can be helped in this game, because in D2 we have another person to chase after right in front of us.
A question for you: do you consider superBlast's mistakes worse than Remuthra's earlier evasiveness?
Shakerag:
IronyOwl: How do you plan on terrorizing this batch of newbies?By FUCKING LYNCHING their asses IMMEDIATELY if they make SO MUCH AS ONE GODDAMNED MISTAKE.
Really though, I wouldn't say I terrorize newbies...
Usually. :x
Soldier:
Lord Allagon, IronyOwl: You haven't posted yet. Busy, lurking, or other?Both. All? Not sure what other would be if I'm both busy and procrastinating.
I admit I have some bias against people who join games and then don't participate, though.Uh oh.
superBlast:
So I'm gonna stop voting random people now and and vote who I suspect and that would be Remu.TIME TO MISLYNCH YOU AGAIN HAHAHAHA!
Vote Remuthra
Uh, ahem. This is nice and all, but are you actually pressuring Remu at the moment, or have you just decided he's the best target to kill? A very quick scan back didn't reveal anything, and it's usually better to try to get a better read on someone, even someone you genuinely suspect is scum, than to just vote them and sit on what you've got.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 22, 2013, 02:03:52 pm
Spaghetti:No, on somebody else. During the course of scum hunting I would eventually find someone to push and break. I could then start shouting and screaming about that if somebody tried to bring me down.You'd deflect scum's attention onto someone else by building a good case on them?But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?I would deflect it to other people. Build up a good case against someone else, and push it hard if votes started falling on my head. If that failed, then I would push against those leading the bandwagon against me and try to expose them while they're weak on the offence. Try to reveal them to the people following for the wagon.
It doesn't matter who started it (:P) I would use it on the person leading everyone else, the one pushing the hardest. Unless this person has truly torn in to them and proven they're scummy the most probable reason they're really pushing is because they themselves are scum.Spaghetti7: If you had a one-shot day inspect, when would you use it?How would you define the "leader?" Whoever voted first? Whoever was pushing hardest? Something else? What if someone was voting them well before it became a bandwagon, or the current one pushing them hardest didn't always have that honor?
I would wait for a bandwagon to begin, and use it on the leader of the attack. This would help me know whether scum were going for offense or defense.At that moment, I was going after his sudden relapse from the game, but then he gave a good reason of school, so I backed off.Alright, Unvote Nerjin.This seems like an awfully weak question, doesn't it? Were you hoping for an answer beyond the obvious?
borno, do you find it more scummy if someone is very active or not so? Why?
Post by: superBlast on February 22, 2013, 02:20:44 pm
So I'm gonna stop voting random people now and and vote who I suspect and that would be Remu.TIME TO MISLYNCH YOU AGAIN HAHAHAHA!
Vote Remuthra
Uh, ahem. This is nice and all, but are you actually pressuring Remu at the moment, or have you just decided he's the best target to kill? A very quick scan back didn't reveal anything, and it's usually better to try to get a better read on someone, even someone you genuinely suspect is scum, than to just vote them and sit on what you've got.
OH NOT AGAIN!
Uh, ahem. I'm done copying you now. About the vote.... it's both :D I'm pretty much plan on keeping my vote there unless I see someone more scummy to me. Nothing says pressure like a vote to lynch you. It's a lot more pressure then saying it's a pressure vote don't you think? Though I plan on going after the other people I find suspicious.
And a question for you, what's you're opinion of everyone so far? You don't seem particularly suspicious of anyone.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 22, 2013, 02:33:38 pm
No, on somebody else. During the course of scum hunting I would eventually find someone to push and break. I could then start shouting and screaming about that if somebody tried to bring me down.Yeah, the "them" referred to the somebody you were deflecting scum attentions onto, not the scum. Which doesn't fix the issue- you're saying that to avoid attention by scum, you'd build a case on someone and then push it hard? Meaning you'd build and push a case on not-scum to avoid scum looking at you too closely?
It doesn't matter who started it (:P) I would use it on the person leading everyone else, the one pushing the hardest. Unless this person has truly torn in to them and proven they're scummy the most probable reason they're really pushing is because they themselves are scum.Well, it stands to reason that whoever's pushing them "hardest" might have the best case, doesn't it? Would this reasoning still apply if they had truly torn into them and proven them scummy?
At that moment, I was going after his sudden relapse from the game, but then he gave a good reason of school, so I backed off.Meaning what, exactly? You were going to ask him a real question but then backed off to a softball?
superBlast:
About the vote.... it's both :D I'm pretty much plan on keeping my vote there unless I see someone more scummy to me. Nothing says pressure like a vote to lynch you. It's a lot more pressure then saying it's a pressure vote don't you think? Though I plan on going after the other people I find suspicious.But if there's nothing to respond to, it's not really pressure, now is it? I guess a better question would be "What would make you unvote him?" If the answer is "Someone else fucks up even harder," it's not a pressure vote.
And a question for you, what's you're opinion of everyone so far? You don't seem particularly suspicious of anyone.Yeah, I'm really not. Just gotten into this, everyone's still sort of flailing. Going off memory and the votelist:
Nerjin: Townlike and competent. Probably doesn't need to be here.
The Soldier: No idea. Shake said he was doing well, so I'm probably glossing him over.
superBlast: Apprehensive and flaily, but getting better.
borno: Lurky and suspicious when he does post.
Lord Allagon: No clue. He hasn't posted yet, has he?
Sphagetti7: A bit suspicious, but less than borno.
Remuthra: Flaily and apprehensive, moreso than superBlast.
Shakerag: Dunno.
IronyOwl: Lurklurklurk, tapping easy targets.
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 02:41:08 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 22, 2013, 02:47:03 pm
Alright, I'm back finally. What were the questions again?More importantly, don't you have any of your own?
Unless you think not dying is more important than finding scum, of course.
Post by: The Soldier on February 22, 2013, 02:55:05 pm
IronyOwl: What makes borno more suspicious than Spaghetti?
PPE: Ah, Remuthra's back. Underlined to make sure you see it: Remuthra: Can you explain why you went to such lengths to dodge questions earlier in the day?
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 02:59:22 pm
(putting my vote on borno)
@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?
@Soldier- Wasn't dodging questions, I had school. Haven't had time to formulate a good reply to anything since the beginning of the game. I'll be available again now.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 22, 2013, 03:05:50 pm
IronyOwl: What makes borno more suspicious than Spaghetti?Off the top of my head, lurkier and his posts have seemed more overtly calculating and malicious. Sphagetti's still had some flail to him, whereas borno's seemed fairly exclusively like a lurking schemer.
I'd have to go back to give you specifics and I'm a bit busy at the moment, but that'd certainly be a reasonable request.
Remuthra:
As it so happens, I do.Hm, still stuck in RVS, then? Do you have any reads on anyone at this point?
(putting my vote on borno)
@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?
@Soldier- Wasn't dodging questions, I had school. Haven't had time to formulate a good reply to anything since the beginning of the game. I'll be available again now.
Also you need to put someone's name in red to vote them, if that's what you're trying to do here.
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 03:08:34 pm
Borno
Post by: Shakerag on February 22, 2013, 03:30:54 pm
I think you don't truly believe it as I have been rather active and scum-hunting. I think that you're putting that vote on me in order to try to get me to slip up and say something damning.And, so ... what? You're going to take a break from that now? Established some scum hunting up front so you can activelurk the rest of the day away?
You can "demand" that lurkers post in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up faster. In a situation in which nothing is striking me, I start asking everyone questions.
@Shake: I didn't get it in my last post but while I was typing something toward Borno, I realized what the point of your question was to see if I deny being scum or partners with Remu. Which yeah you got me on that since I didn't immediately deny it. I didn't even think of it like that and thought a no as in "no your wrong" would be good enough. Since i didn't get that it was felt like you was going after me and was scum trying to build a case on a townie. But now that I see it, I'm putting you on my townie side since I can see more "scumhunting" and less "specifically going after me". Though of course your not 100% off the hook... no one is until death or cop says otherwise.For the sake of discussion and learning experiences, why do you feel someone going after you would be scum trying to mislynch a townie, and not a townie trying to tunnel possible scum into slipping up?
[While "tunneling" can be seen as scummy, it can also be a good tactic to really get a good read on another player. Generally, tunneling is more scummy when the person doing it isn't putting out feelers toward other players as well, or backing up why they're focused on just one person.]
[And as general advice, do note that these games can get pretty intense, and players can and will pick apart everything you say. In almost all cases, it isn't personal, and there isn't intent to offend. Unless it's Dariush doing it.]
Shakerag:Universe help me, I nearly laughed out loud. So I guess you're the bad cop and I'm the good cop this game?IronyOwl: How do you plan on terrorizing this batch of newbies?By FUCKING LYNCHING their asses IMMEDIATELY if they make SO MUCH AS ONE GODDAMNED MISTAKE.
Really though, I wouldn't say I terrorize newbies...
Usually. :x
OH NOT AGAIN!And suddenly superBlast was a bowl of petunias.
Alright, I'm back finally. What were the questions again?...
Seriously?
Try reading the thread from between your last post and now?
Deathsword: Please do include when the day ends on votecount posts.
Remuthra: And your reasons for voting borno are what?
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 03:37:22 pm
Quote
And your reasons for voting borno are what?See Ironyowl's post.
I guess I'll start looking for questions, then. If I miss yours, let me know.
Post by: Shakerag on February 22, 2013, 03:44:05 pm
Sorry, I don't see you stating your reasons for voting borno in IronyOwl's post.QuoteAnd your reasons for voting borno are what?See Ironyowl's post.
I guess I'll start looking for questions, then. If I miss yours, let me know.
Also, make sure you're making it clear who you're quoting. Include a link, a reference to a reply number, or keep the header info when you click on 'quote' (like in this very post).
Post by: superBlast on February 22, 2013, 03:45:23 pm
superBlast:Well there is another way way for him to get me to unvote him, and that is to make up for his mistakes and become less scummy.About the vote.... it's both :D I'm pretty much plan on keeping my vote there unless I see someone more scummy to me. Nothing says pressure like a vote to lynch you. It's a lot more pressure then saying it's a pressure vote don't you think? Though I plan on going after the other people I find suspicious.But if there's nothing to respond to, it's not really pressure, now is it? I guess a better question would be "What would make you unvote him?" If the answer is "Someone else fucks up even harder," it's not a pressure vote.
@Remu: If you had school and that why you wasn't able to formulate a good reply, then how come you mention it now? Why not at the beginning of the game, as a warning or something?
Preedit:
@Shake:
Quote from: Shake
For the sake of discussion and learning experiences, why do you feel someone going after you would be scum trying to mislynch a townie, and not a townie trying to tunnel possible scum into slipping up?
Maybe since the reason why you was going after wasn't apparent at first and didn't make since. That's why it seemed scummy over townie to me I think.
Preedit 2:
@Remu:
QuoteAnd your reasons for voting borno are what?See Ironyowl's post.
So you have no reasons of your own? Your just following Irony?
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 03:48:34 pm
Quote
@Remu: If you had school and that why you wasn't able to formulate a good reply, then how come you mention it now? Why not at the beginning of the game, as a warning or something?Was kind of unexpected, I ended up with a concert last night that kept me from answering.
Quote
So you have no reasons of your own? Your just following Irony?I'm voting because he hasn't posted much, and he seems the best person to pressure.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 22, 2013, 05:18:38 pm
Spaghetti:Ah, I think I was answering the question as if the scum was leading a pretty successful attack against me. To simply not attract attention I'd avoid answering questions incorrectly, for a start, and prefer a background play style. Sure, attack people and scum hunt as much as I please, but certainly don't do any claiming, fake or not, without incredibly good reason.No, on somebody else. During the course of scum hunting I would eventually find someone to push and break. I could then start shouting and screaming about that if somebody tried to bring me down.Yeah, the "them" referred to the somebody you were deflecting scum attentions onto, not the scum. Which doesn't fix the issue- you're saying that to avoid attention by scum, you'd build a case on someone and then push it hard? Meaning you'd build and push a case on not-scum to avoid scum looking at you too closely?
By hardest, I meant the one going in most aggressively. That might not be the one with most evidence. If someone begins a case against somebody and people seem to be jumping on it then a scum would happily join and aim to ensure this person went down (likely).It doesn't matter who started it (:P) I would use it on the person leading everyone else, the one pushing the hardest. Unless this person has truly torn in to them and proven they're scummy the most probable reason they're really pushing is because they themselves are scum.Well, it stands to reason that whoever's pushing them "hardest" might have the best case, doesn't it? Would this reasoning still apply if they had truly torn into them and proven them scummy?
I thought he was starting to show little scum tells, and I wanted to check if he truly was away or just lurking. Unfortunately, that came out as a weaker question than I would ideally of envisaged.At that moment, I was going after his sudden relapse from the game, but then he gave a good reason of school, so I backed off.Meaning what, exactly? You were going to ask him a real question but then backed off to a softball?
Post by: borno on February 22, 2013, 06:40:28 pm
Soldier:It's the timezones, I tell you! IT WAS THE TIMEZONES ALL ALONG! Really, there's a difference between lurking and not being able to go on the computer. And about the calculating and malicious part, sorry about that. I've screwed up in every single game I've been in before, and I really don't want to screw up this one. I'll try to be less serious from now on.IronyOwl: What makes borno more suspicious than Spaghetti?Off the top of my head, lurkier and his posts have seemed more overtly calculating and malicious. Sphagetti's still had some flail to him, whereas borno's seemed fairly exclusively like a lurking schemer.
borno:I'm not sure what you're referencing to here. None of the votes I have made have made anyone jump onto any type of wagon, band or not. And yeah, while it's probably too early for lining up a D2 lynch, most people are thinking that Remuthra's scum, so I think it would be best to pursue someone else on the side while also pursuing Remuthra (Albeit not as much). And hey, if superBlast is scum, we end up having a lynch target, that is not necessarily for D2 through.Lining up an easy D2 target already, eh? What do you think of prepping a D2 lynch before you've even seen the results of your D1 bandwagon?borno:The evasiveness of Remuthra is definitely scummy, but I'm finding superBlast quite scummy also with all his mistakes, and I'm chasing him because having only one person to pursue is not really good if it can be helped in this game, because in D2 we have another person to chase after right in front of us.
A question for you: do you consider superBlast's mistakes worse than Remuthra's earlier evasiveness?
Remuthra:
So if one person says 7 words about someone else it warrants a vote now? Tell me the reasons in your own words.QuoteAnd your reasons for voting borno are what?See Ironyowl's post.
superBlast:
It's not as stupid as it sounds. I would bet that an experienced player could pull out some WIFOM and get away with it. And about the part where it's the only thing I have on you? You're right, and that's why I'm attacking you to try and find out more. Of course, the flailing is pretty scummy also... But I doubt any scum IC would tell you to go completely crazy like that (Oh shit, now I'm WIFOMing too!). Anyway, unvote until further notice.Let me answer question first. If I was scum, If i think I could convince my attack I'm atleast null at best, I'd go for the lurker to try make eyes go off of me. If I'm convinced I can't shake him off me and he's gonna end up getting me lynched, I'd NK him.Also the point about me forgetting the scum IC was... well I really did forget about him. My real point was what I said after that. If I was scum I'd be asking him for scum advice and not asking in the game. That's defiantly a stupid idea.That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?
Now on to the WIFOM part:
More accidental WIFOM... great... -_-
I guess it is WIFOM but I didn't think of it that way. If I was seriously scum, but i didn't ask the scum IC for scum advice or if I seriously scum, but i'm trying to ask for scum advice in the game (even trying to camouflage it somehow to make look like I'm really not) is incredibly stupid. The first one renders the scum IC useless and is stupid because I'm not using a resource that can help me win the game. The second one gives me away to the town that I'm scum. It's WIFOM because that makes me neither town nor scum so that makes it null and a completely useless defense and a completely useless fact to make a case and yet that's the only thing you have on me. Yes it's suspicious but on it's own I think it's completely useless. And now your probably gonna say that's really defensive of me, supicously defensive of me. Fine I don't mind it's what you just said makes me frustrated because it feels like your missing something blatantly obvious to me. Which would be it if I really wasn't using the scum IC for advice or that if I was asking for scum advice in the game thread then I'd be incredibly stupid and I completely deserve to get lynched because I was so stupid... I mean it's so stupid I wouldn't think anyone would actually do it.
I need to calm down... breath in... breath out.... lol.
Shakerag:
Now that Irony Owl has, could you state all of your suspicions?
Nerjin, The Soldier:
As the third most competent players in this game, could you both state your opinions on everyone?
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 06:42:49 pm
Quote
So if one person says 7 words about someone else it warrants a vote now? Tell me the reasons in your own wordsSee above, and answer my question.
Post by: Nerjin on February 22, 2013, 07:00:09 pm
Nerjin, The Soldier:Certainly:
As the third most competent players in this game, could you both state your opinions on everyone?
Soldier: Seems rather town. He hunts pretty well and seems to be pretty on the ball. No major slip ups yet.
Superblast: Likely either scum or flailing newblet. I say this because he keeps tossing out WIFOM and while I’m not sure which it is, gauging by his behavior in the previous BM [as short as he was] I’m leaning towards Scum. I’m also getting a vibe of him trying to play himself as a victim. Pathological appeal and whatnot. More recently he’s begun to appeal a LOT more via emotional methods. I am always distrustful of emotional appeals.
Spaghetti7: Needs to post a bit more but from what I HAVE seen he seems to be alright. Not sure I trust the “Random” answer when he was asked how he’d pick targets as a doctor.
Borno: Similar to Spaghetti7 except less pasta based. I’m also a little wary about his overt suspicion of my motives helping but that’s understandable and by itself means absolutely nothing. I do wish he’d post more often though.
Remuthra: Far too evasive to be a coincidence. He may actually just not have been paying attention but I’m leaning towards scum as well. As I’ve stated before his ignoring of a question because it was ‘invalid’ is unforgivable. The more I think of it the more scum he appears. Also NO EDITS!!!
Shakerag: I’m weary of him due to his status as an IC but I am so far feeling that he is a town. Granted I shall be watching him and Irony Owl like a hawk due to their experience. But as for now everything seems to check out.
Lord Allagon: “Get your ass off the lurktrain and onto the hunt!” is all I can really say. I don’t trust him due to lurking.
IronyOwl: Lurkatron but what they do say seems town enough. I’m gonna be watching very closely however, just in case.
I think you don't truly believe it as I have been rather active and scum-hunting. I think that you're putting that vote on me in order to try to get me to slip up and say something damning.And, so ... what? You're going to take a break from that now? Established some scum hunting up front so you can activelurk the rest of the day away?
[sarcasm]You caught me oh mighty catcher![/sarcasm]
No. If you're expecting me to be active at all times you are mistaken. A break WAS taken. I won't deny that at all. I freely admit it. But that's all it was, a break. Also, don't appreciate the toilet thing there. Just throwing that out there as personal taste.
Nerjin:@Irony Owl: Same question as Shakerag but with you in his place and being unable to take Shake.You mean who would I want my scumbuddy to be? Probably you, since you seem to have a very good grasp of what's going on. Not sure you needed another BM, really.
I just want to get a bit more experience in the lower leagues. Every movement upwards has resulted in a bit of a massive failure. I figure if I stick around for at least one more BM I may pick up on something I haven't before. Plus Dariush never plays in these so it's safe.
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 07:06:26 pm
Quote
Remuthra: Far too evasive to be a coincidence. He may actually just not have been paying attention but I’m leaning towards scum as well. As I’ve stated before his ignoring of a question because it was ‘invalid’ is unforgivable. The more I think of it the more scum he appears. Also NO EDITS!!!
Again, sorry, I really should have read things more thoroughly. And I am trying to hunt.
Post by: borno on February 22, 2013, 07:15:24 pm
Whoops, missed it. Anyway, here's my answer.
@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?That's a tough one, but I think that lasting as long as possible would be the best idea, since then you have more chance to help people live...
Actually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?
PPE:
Shakerag:
Missed this too. To be honest, I don't really. I rely more on the asking questions, applying pressure, etc... Version of scum hunting than the one where you look at voting patterns and similar things. Of course, as said earlier, voting like there's no tomorrow will definitely warrant suspicion, though.Shakerag:Okay, that's interesting too, but I was apparently a bit vague on my question. Do you put stock in analyzing how the votes stand at the end of each day, across multiple days?borno: Do you put value in analyzing voting patterns? Yes or no, why?Well, yes. If someone was changing their votes often/hesitant with voting/OMGUSing, it would be a dead giveaway for scum, and a fatal error for town, and so its always a good idea to keep an eye on people's voting.
Nerjin:
Plus Dariush never plays in these so it's safe.I was in a BM with Dariush once... Suffice to say there were a lot of angry newbies and even more angry Daruish.
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 07:17:38 pm
Quote
Actually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?Huh, it does a bit, actually. Didn't think of that.
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 07:21:26 pm
Post by: superBlast on February 22, 2013, 08:10:59 pm
And to keep my post from being completely useless game wise:
@Nerjin: [ultra sarcasm] I'm sorry but I'm just a big wine connoisseur. I have to have some wherever I go.[/ultra sarcasm]
Ok enough of that. Like I said before those was accidents... You guys aren't gonna let that go for the rest of the game are you?
Anyways here's a question, Your the doctor and someone claimed cop and no on counter claimed. He's been kinda scummy the whole game but everyone believed his claim except you. You think he's lying but you can't the town otherwise. Would you still protect him that night or would you not to see if he still lives?
@Borno: Your normal old townie, and the town in general think someone is scum. You don't think so however. Though your pretty null on everyone. What would you do in that situation?
@Remu: This should be easy. You are town, but everyone thinks your scum. What is your top priority? To avoid getting lynched, or to scum hunt?
@Irony (that is whenever you get here): What do you do when it's pretty late in the Day and no one, not even you, can find a scum tell on anyone? What would you do as town and as scum?
@Everyone: If there is any bit of WIFOM in any of those questions then just go a head and not answer unless you really wanna.
Preedit:
@Remu: If it was me.... I'm a less active killer. Mainly since most people would tend to think scum would go after more active people. That way town would wonder start to wonder why the active guy hasn't been killed off yet. Also the mindset also seems to be if you have a power role, you stay barely active so you fly under the radar. I'm not sure on that but the way everyone talks, that's what it seems like.
Though in BM's, until I get more experience, I'd kill off the ICs since they would probrably the biggest challenge to stay hidden from.
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 08:15:46 pm
Quote
@Remu: This should be easy. You are town, but everyone thinks your scum. What is your top priority? To avoid getting lynched, or to scum hunt?Hunt for scum, scummy to not be hunting.
Lord Al, when should you remove your vote, and when should you press?
Post by: The Soldier on February 22, 2013, 08:31:15 pm
Nerjin, The Soldier:Sure thing. In no particular order:
As the third most competent players in this game, could you both state your opinions on everyone?
1: Nerjin - Was active, had a period of being inactive, seems to be hunting well enough. Leaning towards town.
2: superBlast - Jumpy, with WIFOM and appeals to emotion. Potentially scum.
3: borno - Similar to Nerjin, but not as active and a weaker read.
4: Lord Allagon - Has ZERO posts, despite being online yesterday. This alone makes me uneasy.
5: Spaghetti7 - Has had to backpedal from poorly thought-out statements several times. Might be town getting his legs, might be scum.
6: Remuthra - Slippery as an eel. Disappeared for a day. Has done little hunting, and is lazy with reasoning and questions. Probably scum, and my current vote target.
7: Shakerag - Is an IC. Is mostly correcting play, with some hunting. Seems town.
8: IronyOwl - Is also an IC. Less active, but much the same as Shakerag.
9: Me - Confirmed town. I can trust me with anything. /obvious
IronyOwl:
Soldier:That would be great if you could.IronyOwl: What makes borno more suspicious than Spaghetti?Off the top of my head, lurkier and his posts have seemed more overtly calculating and malicious. Sphagetti's still had some flail to him, whereas borno's seemed fairly exclusively like a lurking schemer.
I'd have to go back to give you specifics and I'm a bit busy at the moment, but that'd certainly be a reasonable request.
Remuthra: I wasn't talking about your disappearance, I was talking about the "your question is invalid" BS. Still want an answer to my question here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4051506#msg4051506) with that in mind.
superBlast: Hypothetical questions are all well and good, but what is your opinion on the game thus far? What are your reads?
Spaghetti7: It's my understanding that you're voting Nerjin for his inactivity. Now that he's back, who's your top scumpick?
MOD: Prod Lord Allagon, if you haven't already.
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 08:39:43 pm
Quote
Remuthra: I wasn't talking about your disappearance, I was talking about the "your question is invalid" BS. Still want an answer to my question here, with that in mind.I was trying to hunt, and am hunting now, so I don't really see your point. Answer: I'm already hunting, stop bothering me about it, and stop promoting me as scum.
As to the question, the post right below it has my answer. And yes, that is a direct answer. I had school, I wasn't trying to dodge any questions earlier today, I wasn't even on earlier today. (may seem kind of lengthy and repetitive, but I don't want any accusations this time)
As for you, why are you so focused on trying to discredit me?
Post by: superBlast on February 22, 2013, 09:02:19 pm
- Me: The coolest person in the world, I'd never vote for him! And he's cute, and strong, and cute, and Kyaaaa~ *starts fangirling over superBlast* (Ok sorry, I thought was really funny so I couldn't resist saying that.)
- Shake: I'm thinking he's town.... mainly for scum hunting pretty well.
- Irony: I have no idea. Completely null.
- Soldier: No idea either... another null.
- Spaghetti: Once again.... another null.
- Borno: Mostly null... though I am leaning on scum... still mostly null.
- Nerjin: I know I had a reason i was suspicious of him... but can't remember... I think it was something Shake said. But still null.
- Lord Al: If lurking = 100% scum he'd perfect. But since there is nothing to go by, null.
- Remu: He's the only one I'm suspicious of... and thats mostly for being evasive like everyone mentioned. Wish I could find my own reasons.
In conclusion, I have no freaking idea tbh -_- I'm not very good at this game.
Post by: borno on February 22, 2013, 10:05:19 pm
A bit fluffy and off-topic buuuut, who's this Dariush guy? This he is the second time he's been mentioned so far.Search through the thread for any snippet that could be used against someone else. Make my case against them, and proclaim why the person in question is town, and the person I'm attacking is Mafia. If I can't find any evidence to use against anyone else, just say that why you think he's town anyway, so if one of you get lynched, the other will be fine.
@Borno: Your normal old townie, and the town in general think someone is scum. You don't think so however. Though your pretty null on everyone. What would you do in that situation?
Remuthra:
And so? Are you going to defend yourself more than a 'Didn't think of that.' Really, I don't think any of your posts have been more than a few sentences long. Want to convince people you're town? Compile a big list with all your suspicions, accusations and questions. Because the active-lurking that you're doing now ain't gonna cut it.QuoteActually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?Huh, it does a bit, actually. Didn't think of that.
Lord Allagon:
Get off your lurky ass, you lurkymclurkinstein.
Post by: Remuthra on February 22, 2013, 10:18:38 pm
Alright then. Here's my suspicions list.
Me- Not sure, pretty suspicious and evasive... [/sarcasm]
Shake- Null, not really posting much.
Nerjin- leaning town, being good and hunting and all that
Irony- leaning town, see above
superBlast- null
Soldier- leaning scum, because so focused on getting me lynched instead of asking questions
Borno- null
LA- leaning scum, because of inactivity combined with being active elsewhere
Spaghetti- null
Post by: Nerjin on February 22, 2013, 11:09:21 pm
Again, sorry, I really should have read things more thoroughly. And I am trying to hunt.
No one's gonna get on you if you don't post right away. Take your time to look over your posts and read everything carefully.
A bit fluffy and off-topic buuuut, who's this Dariush guy? This he is the second time he's been mentioned so far.
He is a man you don't want to deal with ever. He's a little... extreme in his moods. He flies off the handle very easily.
@Nerjin: [ultra sarcasm] I'm sorry but I'm just a big wine connoisseur. I have to have some wherever I go.[/ultra sarcasm]
Ok enough of that. Like I said before those was accidents... You guys aren't gonna let that go for the rest of the game are you?
Anyways here's a question, Your the doctor and someone claimed cop and no on counter claimed. He's been kinda scummy the whole game but everyone believed his claim except you. You think he's lying but you can't the town otherwise. Would you still protect him that night or would you not to see if he still lives?
If I think he's scum there is no way in hell I'd protect him. Even if everyone else lynch's me for it.
@Everyone: If there is any bit of WIFOM in any of those questions then just go a head and not answer unless you really wanna.
Never show doubt. Think your questions through. You should really re-read the OP.
In conclusion, I have no freaking idea tbh -_- I'm not very good at this game.
Re-read the OP and think over all the interactions you've seen so far.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 23, 2013, 03:02:28 am
Spaghetti7: It's my understanding that you're voting Nerjin for his inactivity. Now that he's back, who's your top scumpick?Not quite. I put a pressure vote on him to try to get his attention and get my questions answered, but he seemed to miss mine and answered the same from somebody else.
At the moment, I will admit I haven't managed to dig in to anyone enough yet. From what I have managed I couldn't say, but from the game in general I would say Remuthra. His replies are often short and unsubstantiated, and he seems to be trying to give very little away in whatever he says.
In which case, unvote Nerjin (my question was answered) and:
Again, sorry, I really should have read things more thoroughly. And I am trying to hunt.Kindly elaborate on how you are trying to hunt, Remuthra. Looking back a bit, this seems to be the extent of your scum hunting:
Oh.
Borno
Post by: The Soldier on February 23, 2013, 03:35:16 am
Spaghetti7: Thanks for the response. Now, I agree that Remuthra is scummy, but taking his posts out of context (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4053222#msg4053222) is scummier. Why did you do this, Spaghetti?
On the Lord Allagon topic: I do hope he shows up, but we have 3 people in the replacement queue if he doesn't. He's been offline for two days now, so he might just not have access to the internet. Before anyone asks "Why the change of opinion on lurkers?" I'll say that inactivity only equals lurking if it's intentional. If it's unintentional, just replace him and move on.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 23, 2013, 03:49:34 am
Spaghetti7: Thanks for the response. Now, I agree that Remuthra is scummy, but taking his posts out of context (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4053222#msg4053222) is scummier. Why did you do this, Spaghetti?I literally face-desked as to how badly I interpreted that. Sorry, I withdraw my attack on that particular post.
But thanks for flagging that up, because it made me look further back at Remuthra's posts. Attempting to take them IN context this time:
Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.Content to sit back on his heels after saying he trusted a single person. To not appear scummy you must hunt, and to hunt you can't just TRUST people. You have to dig in to them and find out who they are.
"But since you insist". This one is only a few posts later, and the sudden response on the above has forced him in to hunting. However, not only did he never follow this question up, but he still seems like he doesn't want to or need to be scum hunting.QuoteI refuse to allow this. Lurking doesn't help. You need to pressure those who have not said anything and put even MORE pressure on those who have. Now for that answer me a question: Why do you trust him to be town so early in the game? Do you truly believe lurking will help? What exactly did he say to convince you of his town-nessFirst, I would like to point out that was three separate questions.
1. Not quite sure but he seems pretty trustworthy at this stage. That could definately change later.
2. No, but badly formed accusations won't help much either.
But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?
You missed my question, Remuthra.Was that a serious question back there?
Bit of nice evasiveness from Remuthra here. Not much more scummy than arguing a question wasn't good, or asked at all for that matter.QuoteAs I understand it he asked "When are you going to start hunting?" to which you STILL have not provided an answerHe never asked me that.
Aaand just as it begins to hot up, he leaves. I understand that people have lives, but he could have at least promised to answer questions and apologised, rather than just walking away when serious doubts were raised about him being town.That one is made invalid because in the post above it I started hunting.Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
This isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.
(going to bed now, don't kill me in my sleep)
Now, those are some rather better reasons why I don't trust him. Remuthra, I'd like an explanation on how any of the above DOESN'T make you scum.
Post by: borno on February 23, 2013, 07:59:54 am
Post by: Remuthra on February 23, 2013, 09:39:39 am
Quote
As for you, why are you so focused on trying to discredit me?
Quote
Lord Al, when should you remove your vote, and when should you press?
Quote
Superblast, who would you rather kill as scum, a more active person, or a less active one?
Quote
@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?
My previous questions, for reference.
Post by: Remuthra on February 23, 2013, 10:10:24 am
2. I said that, quite a while back, and at this point have retracted my statement, and am not "sitting back on my heels".Spaghetti7: Thanks for the response. Now, I agree that Remuthra is scummy, but taking his posts out of context (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4053222#msg4053222) is scummier. Why did you do this, Spaghetti?I literally face-desked as to how badly I interpreted that. Sorry, I withdraw my attack on that particular post.
But thanks for flagging that up, because it made me look further back at Remuthra's posts. Attempting to take them IN context this time:Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.Content to sit back on his heels after saying he trusted a single person. To not appear scummy you must hunt, and to hunt you can't just TRUST people. You have to dig in to them and find out who they are."But since you insist". This one is only a few posts later, and the sudden response on the above has forced him in to hunting. However, not only did he never follow this question up, but he still seems like he doesn't want to or need to be scum hunting.QuoteI refuse to allow this. Lurking doesn't help. You need to pressure those who have not said anything and put even MORE pressure on those who have. Now for that answer me a question: Why do you trust him to be town so early in the game? Do you truly believe lurking will help? What exactly did he say to convince you of his town-nessFirst, I would like to point out that was three separate questions.
1. Not quite sure but he seems pretty trustworthy at this stage. That could definately change later.
2. No, but badly formed accusations won't help much either.
But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?You missed my question, Remuthra.Was that a serious question back there?Bit of nice evasiveness from Remuthra here. Not much more scummy than arguing a question wasn't good, or asked at all for that matter.QuoteAs I understand it he asked "When are you going to start hunting?" to which you STILL have not provided an answerHe never asked me that.Aaand just as it begins to hot up, he leaves. I understand that people have lives, but he could have at least promised to answer questions and apologised, rather than just walking away when serious doubts were raised about him being town.That one is made invalid because in the post above it I started hunting.Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
This isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.
(going to bed now, don't kill me in my sleep)
Now, those are some rather better reasons why I don't trust him. Remuthra, I'd like an explanation on how any of the above DOESN'T make you scum.
3. Again, I at that time could not think of a question, which isn't surprising based on the fact that I wasn't fully awake, but since I was told to start asking, no matter how bad the questions were, I started asking. Since this time I have asked much better questions.
4. Bit of nice confusion from me there. I legitimately didn't know what was being referred to, because no mention of the specific question was made. When the question was pointed out to me, the fact that I was hunting made it kind of obselete. Not hunting very well at all, but hunting. I addressed this earlier, in response to one of Soldier's other attacks on me based on this very thing. Stop obsessing over my mistake.
5. Had to leave, wasn't much choice in the matter, and I couldn't answer questions until later. It is not my fault if you guys start debating in earnest when I am not available.
And none of those were actually questions.
@Spaghetti, what should you never say as town?
Post by: Remuthra on February 23, 2013, 10:18:54 am
Post by: Teneb on February 23, 2013, 11:12:43 am
Post by: Remuthra on February 23, 2013, 11:29:13 am
For reference, my question is now directed towards NQT.
Post by: Nerjin on February 23, 2013, 12:24:31 pm
notquitethere has replaced Lord Allagon due to inactivity and zero posts.
Lord Allagon was never quite there, now he's still notquitethere.[/bad joke ]
Post by: notquitethere on February 23, 2013, 12:33:23 pm
Post by: superBlast on February 23, 2013, 07:26:03 pm
@NQT: What would you do if you're scum that just been confirmed scum by the cop?
Post by: Teneb on February 23, 2013, 08:02:30 pm
“Brothers,
Your assassination of ‘magister’ Dariush was performed flawlessly, with no witnesses and all actions correctly done. The University will play by our rules now, and that shall be their undoing. You two are to lay low and wait for further orders at the drop point.
Thy Master,
The Patriarch”
Nerjin(1):Shakerag
The Soldier(0):
superBlast(1):Nerjin
borno(0):
notquitethere(0):
Sphagetti7(2):The Soldier, Remuthra
Remuthra(3):superBlast, borno, Sphagetti7
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: notquitethre, IronyOwl
Day ends at 22:00 BRST (GMT-3) of 25/02/1013 (DD/MM/YYYY) in 48 hours.
Post by: The Soldier on February 23, 2013, 09:38:25 pm
superBlast: Posting your revised reads would be nice, too.
Spaghetti7: I don't know, you sure (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4048691#msg4048691) seem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4051373#msg4051373) to backtrack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4051952#msg4051952) a lot (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4053271#msg4053271). It's starting to look pretty suspicious. I'm guilty of this too (See: my previous post), but think your posts through more before posting.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 24, 2013, 03:32:31 am
@Spaghetti, what should you never say as town?
Back.So, hold on, did you re-direct this question to NQT?
For reference, my question is now directed towards NQT.
Spaghetti7: I don't know, you sure (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4048691#msg4048691) seem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4051373#msg4051373) to backtrack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4051952#msg4051952) a lot (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4053271#msg4053271). It's starting to look pretty suspicious. I'm guilty of this too (See: my previous post), but think your posts through more before posting.I completely agree. I made mistakes early on in the game when I was trying to find my feet. This is a beginners game, but I can't change whether you interpret that as scummy or simply foolish.
Remu, after saying you blindly trusted him to be town earlier in the game, what is your read on superBlast?
Post by: Remuthra on February 24, 2013, 08:24:27 am
Quote
Remu, after saying you blindly trusted him to be town earlier in the game, what is your read on superBlast?That was a really poor choice of words back there, I was trying to say I was leaning town. Now I'd say a slight lean towards scum.
@Spaghetti, what is more important, cop or doctor?
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 24, 2013, 09:06:15 am
Do you have reasons for this?QuoteRemu, after saying you blindly trusted him to be town earlier in the game, what is your read on superBlast?That was a really poor choice of words back there, I was trying to say I was leaning town. Now I'd say a slight lean towards scum.
@Spaghetti, what is more important, cop or doctor?Both are obviously very important, but I would say in this particular game Cop is. Doctor can protect other important roles or just general townies, but I believe in a beginners match it is crucial and extremely useful to be able to know for sure if someone is scum. It helps you with what to look for in other people to know they are scummy.
Post by: Remuthra on February 24, 2013, 01:06:52 pm
Quote
Do you have reasons for this?For one, he hasn't formed any suspicion profiles for anyone except me, and doesn't state anything there. He's not lurking, nor is he doing much to find scum.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 24, 2013, 04:18:57 pm
Fair enough. Unvote Remuthra.QuoteDo you have reasons for this?For one, he hasn't formed any suspicion profiles for anyone except me, and doesn't state anything there. He's not lurking, nor is he doing much to find scum.
superBlast, how important do you believe the Godfather is to the scum team, and how should he play?
Post by: The Soldier on February 24, 2013, 06:10:53 pm
Post by: superBlast on February 24, 2013, 07:13:16 pm
Replace request... or however I'm supposed to do it.
Post by: borno on February 25, 2013, 01:27:11 am
Spaghetti7:
Know for sure? What about the godfather?@Spaghetti, what is more important, cop or doctor?Both are obviously very important, but I would say in this particular game Cop is. Doctor can protect other important roles or just general townies, but I believe in a beginners match it is crucial and extremely useful to be able to know for sure if someone is scum. It helps you with what to look for in other people to know they are scummy.
Remuthra:
@borno It's a good question, as you yourself admitted. And it's only a role fish if you are dumb enough to give away anything.And where are we. A BM. People aren't necessarily dumb, but they are definitely new and a bit confused as to what to do. But I'm going to Unvote you for now though, since it's not really fair to vote you for a question that I myself admitted was good. Anyway, two people you think are townies are fighting each other. Do you leave it to them to resolve it, or do you step in? If it's the latter, what do you do?
I'm sorry to do this but I'm gonna quit. I had all day today and a lot yesterday to do what I said and re-read the thread but I haven't really been in a "want to play mafia mood" right now. I might be later on but doing nothing is just wasting everyone's time. It's a bad time to leave with the Day almost at the end but... yeah sorry. Maybe the next BM I'll have a better mood for mafia lol.
Replace request... or however I'm supposed to do it.
I'm sorry to do this but I'm gonna quit. I had all day today and a lot yesterday to do what I said and re-read the thread but I haven't really been in a "want to play mafia mood" right now. I might be later on but doing nothing is just wasting everyone's time. It's a bad time to leave with the Day almost at the end but... yeah sorry. Maybe the next BM I'll have a better mood for mafia lol.Are you sure about this? It's almost day end; I'd wait until D2 and see how you're feeling then. If not, goodbye.
Replace request... or however I'm supposed to do it.
Also, vote extension.
Post by: notquitethere on February 25, 2013, 10:13:29 am
"Ah, sorry for my late arrival: hopefully my specialities in Metamagical Analysis and Runic Potentialities will quickly sort out the Warlocks from the Warnots. Now what did I miss?"
The Post With All The Answers
(I haven't bothered answering 'why are you lurking' type questions as they aren't really addressed to me. Everything else though.)
Nerjin
@Lord Allagon: Do you take a lynch-all-lurkers strategy? Why or Why not?Not in this game mode. In BM, scum still have the advantage and so policy-voting is generally a bad idea. It is a bad idea because it's very easy to lynch inactive town-players. This is especially so when serial-lurkers can be replaced by active players (as in the case of my predecessor).
Superblast
@Everyone, Anybody got any good ways to come up with question? I'm having a hard time with that... and the first one to pop in my head turned out to be pretty bad WIFOM.I think the accepted wisdom is that questions should be formed to create a cage to trap scum in. You ask players what they would do in situations that are likely to arise in game, and when they act contrary to their earlier statements you have the means to trap them in a prison of their own words.
@NQT: What would you do if you're scum that just been confirmed scum by the cop?It depends whether the cop had claimed at this stage. If so, I would pour doubt on the authenticity of the cop's claim, perhaps by twisting earlier statements by the cop to arouse the suspicions of others. If unclaimed, I would act like both town and scum should when accused: calmly answer any questions with reasonable responses and try to avoid making statements that will later come back and haunt you.
Shakerag
Lord Allagon: If someone claimed doctor, how would you decide whether to trust they're telling the truth?It depends on what stage in the game it was. First of all, was there any evidence at that point that there was even a doctor in the game? How trustworthy had this person been in their earlier dealings? Either way, I'd want them to explain who they had protected and why. If they weren't killed in a night-kill after claiming, I'd want them to give a good reason why that might be. This would be complicated if there was a cop claim as well, as I could ask whether the purported cop had investigated their role or not. I'd also wonder why they were claiming doctor. The usual reason would be because they're up for a lynch.
Ultimately, like most things in this game, the claim would go out into the swamp of epistemological uncertainty, to be weighed up only in context of the trustworthiness of every single other claim.
Soldier
Lord Allagon: Say it's LYLO, and someone just claimed doctor. Do you trust/believe them? What if they claimed cop instead?If they claimed doctor, I'd want to know everyone that they protected each night and why. If they gave a compelling answer, and I really pushed them on the details, then it might sway me to believing them but only in relation to the trustworthiness of the other person. If they were a cop, I'd want a similar record of who they investigated and what they did with this information. I'd want posts showing where they tried to sway town opinion away from innocents they'd investigated and posts showing where they'd led lynches on scum identified.
NQT: Welcome to the game. If you could choose any non-IC player here to be your scumpartner, who would you choose? Also, once you finish your read of the thread, I'd be interested in seeing your reads on the players.I would chose Nerjin as I've played with him in other games here and have a better idea of his normal posting-style than other players. I would genuinely like to give you my reads but as I haven't formed them strongly yet, I think I'll have to re-read the thread and post that a little later, along with my questions to others.
Remuthra
Lord Al, when should you remove your vote, and when should you press?You should remove your vote when you earnestly believe that you may be leading to the lynch of an innocent person. You should press when you're not convinced by the answers you've been given by your lynch-target and you have a reasonable suspicion that they may be scum and that in pursuing them you aren't letting more likely targets escape scrutiny.
Post by: Shakerag on February 25, 2013, 10:49:44 am
Extend. Replacements and all.
Catching up now for a wall of text post.
Post by: The Soldier on February 25, 2013, 11:44:13 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 25, 2013, 11:51:50 am
Extend. Managed to fall asleep during my reread, need more time.Don't kill yourself via lack of sleep D:
That's bad, lacking sleep there...Just ask for an extension and sleep next time (Though your perseverance is admired :D)
Post by: Shakerag on February 25, 2013, 12:00:47 pm
And he seems to be the best person to pressure ... why? PROTIP: Stating "because he hasn't posted much" is not the correct answer to this question.QuoteSo you have no reasons of your own? Your just following Irony?I'm voting because he hasn't posted much, and he seems the best person to pressure.
Shakerag:[grammar nazi]Yes, I could state my suspicions. Do you want me to do so?[/grammar nazi]
Now that Irony Owl has, could you state all of your suspicions?
Going off the top of my head here:
•Nerjin - Neutral. Has experience, so I'm not expecting too many newtells or easy slips. Will need to squeeze later.
•The Soldier - Neutral. Done his homework, but reading and playing are different beasts. Mostly watching for now.
•superBlast - Leaning scummy. Dropping newtells like a sack with a hole in it.
•borno - Neutral. If memory serves, has a bit of a track record for getting mislynched. Might need to watch a bit closely to differentiate between scummy and "suboptimal play".
•notquitethere - Neutral. Johnny5 needs more input.
•Spaghetti7 - Neutral. I'm thinking I remember getting a newbtown vibe from him.
•Remuthra - Leaning scummy. Maybe a bit more so than superBlast. Also dropping newtells like they're hot.
•IronyOwl - Neutral. Lurking like it's a youtube fad, but that's pretty standard for him. Will likely need to TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL TUNNEL later to get a good read.
[Urge to beat with shovel rising.]QuoteSo if one person says 7 words about someone else it warrants a vote now? Tell me the reasons in your own wordsSee above, and answer my question.
[sarcasm]You caught me oh mighty catcher![/sarcasm]If you need/want to take a break, that's fine, but do so by refraining to post and/or just making a note that you're taking a break. Anything you post can and will be used against you otherwise. So if your posts make you look like activelurking scum, then expect to be called out as activelurking scum.
No. If you're expecting me to be active at all times you are mistaken. A break WAS taken. I won't deny that at all. I freely admit it. But that's all it was, a break. Also, don't appreciate the toilet thing there. Just throwing that out there as personal taste.
[Crassness is just one more service I offer as an IC, but I will try and make a note of that for you.]
Remuthra @ 137: [PROTIP: Stating "I am trying to hunt" in a post and not including actual scumhunting is not convincing anyone. And source your quotes FFS.]
Do tell how this is rolefishing, borno.@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?That's a tough one, but I think that lasting as long as possible would be the best idea, since then you have more chance to help people live...
Actually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?
Everyone: [It's pretty safe to say we're past the RVS at this point. When questions (and accusations) start getting thrown around about the responses to RVS questions and we start analyzing motives and whatnot, asking more RVS questions tends to contribute little. Now the focus needs to shift to analyzing other players' posts and looking for anything in their responses to focus on.]
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 25, 2013, 12:15:54 pm
Back everyone.Very true. However, you can circumvent this by tracking down a vanilla Mafioso, investigating him and looking at those scumtells. This can give you a good feel for anyone else who could be scum, even if they turn up town. I still believe that this is more helpful in a game for newbies.
Spaghetti7:Know for sure? What about the godfather?@Spaghetti, what is more important, cop or doctor?Both are obviously very important, but I would say in this particular game Cop is. Doctor can protect other important roles or just general townies, but I believe in a beginners match it is crucial and extremely useful to be able to know for sure if someone is scum. It helps you with what to look for in other people to know they are scummy.
Also, extend.
Post by: Nerjin on February 25, 2013, 12:31:41 pm
•Nerjin - Neutral. Has experience, so I'm not expecting too many newtells or easy slips. Will need to squeeze later.So I suppose signing onto the next BM would be going much too far then eh?
Post by: The Soldier on February 25, 2013, 01:15:44 pm
superBlast: Farewell. Be sure to come back for more when you're back in the mood.
Spaghetti7: I'm going with "foolish." Unvote.
Nerjin: Do you intend to use your early hunting to coast through today? Even your most recent vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4052247#msg4052247) for superBlast came with no question, no pressure. Why?
Reads:
Nerjin: I'd feel a lot better about him if I saw some content from him. He's done basically no hunting since he voted for Remuthra way back here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4047449#msg4047449) Looks to be activelurking scum in my book.
NQT: Just replaced in from Lord Zeroposts. Seems competent enough from his one content post so far.
superBlast: Just replaced out (maybe?). Before that, seemed pretty scummy due to flailing and WIFOM, but may just be a newb. Keep it in mind for his replacement.
Spaghetti7: Backtracks a lot, but could just be newtown. Still have my eye on him.
borno: Relatively few posts, but is solid when he does post.
Rumuthra: Looks a lot less scummy this time around. I'd still like him to push his suspects a little harder though.
Shakerag: All posts contain solid hunting or solid ICing or both. Seems town to me.
IronyOwl: Like Shakerage, but fewer posts.
Spoiler: Tiruin (click to show/hide)
Post by: Remuthra on February 25, 2013, 03:06:03 pm
Extend
@Spaghetti, you say cop is more important. Scum are concerned about cops moreso than doctors, because they can expose them. Defend yourself.
Lean List
SB- scum, too much WIFOM, not much good hunting
Irony- town, seems solid, needs to post more
Shakerag- town, seems solid
Spaghetti- slight scum
Soldier- slight town
Post by: Nerjin on February 25, 2013, 03:17:32 pm
Nerjin: Do you intend to use your early hunting to coast through today? Even your most recent vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4052247#msg4052247) for superBlast came with no question, no pressure. Why?
Reads:
Nerjin: I'd feel a lot better about him if I saw some content from him. He's done basically no hunting since he voted for Remuthra way back here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4047449#msg4047449) Looks to be activelurking scum in my book.
No vote and no pressure because I felt I had said everythingthing that could be said at that point. Plus after that was a weekend and I had other things to do. I like mafia, but not enough to sacrifice my social life.
As for scum-hunting no one has said anything that really sticks out to me. I suppose that does set up a case for active-lurking so I can understand where you're coming from my friend, however I would contend that I post fairly frequently and handle the small to moderate amount of posts that happen when I am absent.
But you do raise an excellent point, I should ask a question. Why do you Soldier switch votes so often? Is it for pressure? Seems rather risky this late in the day.
Post by: Shakerag on February 25, 2013, 04:22:25 pm
PFP: More later.[Yeah, I'm thinking that won't be necessary.]•Nerjin - Neutral. Has experience, so I'm not expecting too many newtells or easy slips. Will need to squeeze later.So I suppose signing onto the next BM would be going much too far then eh?
Remuthra: You missed a question here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4059018#msg4059018).
Post by: Remuthra on February 25, 2013, 04:26:46 pm
Quote
And he seems to be the best person to pressure ... why?
Quote
For one, he hasn't formed any suspicion profiles for anyone except me, and doesn't state anything there. He's not lurking, nor is he doing much to find scum.Was that satisfactory, or do I need to elaborate more?
Post by: Shakerag on February 25, 2013, 05:01:03 pm
Hang on while I sort through your clusterfuck of ambiguous quoting.QuoteAnd he seems to be the best person to pressure ... why?QuoteFor one, he hasn't formed any suspicion profiles for anyone except me, and doesn't state anything there. He's not lurking, nor is he doing much to find scum.Was that satisfactory, or do I need to elaborate more?
-Okay, so you asked borno an RVS question and voted him.
-When asked for reasons for doing so, you refer to IronyOwl's post.
-Then you say it's because he hasn't posted much, and seemed to be the best person to pressure.
-But then you switch your vote to superBlast with another RVS question.
-However your later read on borno is "null".
-And I just realized you can't keep your own shit straight, because my question was in relation to borno and you gave me a response you made to Spaghetti7 about your read on superBlast.
So ... what pressure exactly did you put on borno? A vote with nothing else isn't pressure. What made you change your read on him to "null"?
Post by: Remuthra on February 25, 2013, 05:04:56 pm
Hold on a bit, I'm going to go sort this out.
Post by: Teneb on February 25, 2013, 06:36:37 pm
Post by: Remuthra on February 25, 2013, 06:46:11 pm
Previously kind of flaily, but mostly because RVS.
Now is past the time for RVS, and he doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly suspicious.
Post by: Teneb on February 25, 2013, 07:27:55 pm
“The Archmage intercepted it, Patriarch.”
“Did you place the enchantment I taught you? The one created by the Archmage?”
“Yes, master.”
“Excellent.”
Nerjin(1):The Soldier
The Soldier(0):
Captain Ford(2):Nerjin, Sphagetti7
borno(0):
notquitethere(0):
Sphagetti7(1):Remuthra
Remuthra(2):Captain Ford, Shakerag
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: notquitethere, IronyOwl, borno
5 votes for extension, 3 required. Extension passed.
Day now ends at 27/02/2013 at 22:00 BRT (GMT-3)
Post by: IronyOwl on February 25, 2013, 07:37:32 pm
How exactly would attacking and scumhunting at will constitute a "background play style?" Also, if you were answering from the perspective of scum leading an attack on you, why did you earlier say:Which doesn't fix the issue- you're saying that to avoid attention by scum, you'd build a case on someone and then push it hard? Meaning you'd build and push a case on not-scum to avoid scum looking at you too closely?Ah, I think I was answering the question as if the scum was leading a pretty successful attack against me. To simply not attract attention I'd avoid answering questions incorrectly, for a start, and prefer a background play style. Sure, attack people and scum hunt as much as I please, but certainly don't do any claiming, fake or not, without incredibly good reason.
That you'd build a case on "someone else" first, and only if that failed go after the (apparently scum) people leading the wagon on you?No, on somebody else. During the course of scum hunting I would eventually find someone to push and break. I could then start shouting and screaming about that if somebody tried to bring me down.I would deflect it to other people. Build up a good case against someone else, and push it hard if votes started falling on my head. If that failed, then I would push against those leading the bandwagon against me and try to expose them while they're weak on the offence. Try to reveal them to the people following for the wagon.You'd deflect scum's attention onto someone else by building a good case on them?
By hardest, I meant the one going in most aggressively. That might not be the one with most evidence. If someone begins a case against somebody and people seem to be jumping on it then a scum would happily join and aim to ensure this person went down (likely).Good reasoning and noted.
I thought he was starting to show little scum tells, and I wanted to check if he truly was away or just lurking. Unfortunately, that came out as a weaker question than I would ideally of envisaged.
borno:
It's the timezones, I tell you! IT WAS THE TIMEZONES ALL ALONG! Really, there's a difference between lurking and not being able to go on the computer. And about the calculating and malicious part, sorry about that. I've screwed up in every single game I've been in before, and I really don't want to screw up this one. I'll try to be less serious from now on.I'll go back eventually and try to pick out exactly what you're doing that seemed schemy.
I'm too busy to actually go back and check, but you and several other people were voting Remuthra, weren't you? That's a bandwagon of sorts.I'm not sure what you're referencing to here. None of the votes I have made have made anyone jump onto any type of wagon, band or not. And yeah, while it's probably too early for lining up a D2 lynch, most people are thinking that Remuthra's scum, so I think it would be best to pursue someone else on the side while also pursuing Remuthra (Albeit not as much). And hey, if superBlast is scum, we end up having a lynch target, that is not necessarily for D2 through.Lining up an easy D2 target already, eh? What do you think of prepping a D2 lynch before you've even seen the results of your D1 bandwagon?A question for you: do you consider superBlast's mistakes worse than Remuthra's earlier evasiveness?The evasiveness of Remuthra is definitely scummy, but I'm finding superBlast quite scummy also with all his mistakes, and I'm chasing him because having only one person to pursue is not really good if it can be helped in this game, because in D2 we have another person to chase after right in front of us.
Good reasoning on selecting a different target, though.
Soldier:
IronyOwl:Sorry, busy again. Give me another prod if I forget later.Soldier:That would be great if you could.IronyOwl: What makes borno more suspicious than Spaghetti?Off the top of my head, lurkier and his posts have seemed more overtly calculating and malicious. Sphagetti's still had some flail to him, whereas borno's seemed fairly exclusively like a lurking schemer.
I'd have to go back to give you specifics and I'm a bit busy at the moment, but that'd certainly be a reasonable request.
Remuthra:
vote SpaghettiThis is phrased a bit weakly. The intent is decent, but the explanation itself should be a question or obvious thing to defend against. Having to add "defend yourself" on the end there weakens it.
Extend
@Spaghetti, you say cop is more important. Scum are concerned about cops moreso than doctors, because they can expose them. Defend yourself.
Lean ListCould you do a reread and give me a more detailed breakdown of your opinion of Soldier? Include sample quotes if possible.
SB- scum, too much WIFOM, not much good hunting
Irony- town, seems solid, needs to post more
Shakerag- town, seems solid
Spaghetti- slight scum
Soldier- slight town
The Lurker Tracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86473.0) may be handy in this, as it allows you to sort the thread by person posting.
Post by: Remuthra on February 25, 2013, 08:06:21 pm
Quote
This is phrased a bit weakly. The intent is decent, but the explanation itself should be a question or obvious thing to defend against. Having to add "defend yourself" on the end there weakens itAlright, rephrase time!
@Spaghetti: Scum are more concerned with cops, who can reveal them, than doctors, who just impede their progress. You seem pretty focused on the cops to me. Why?
Quote
Could you do a reread and give me a more detailed breakdown of your opinion of Soldier? Include sample quotes if possible.Working on that. Going through a reread of the thread.
Post by: Remuthra on February 25, 2013, 09:04:26 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on February 25, 2013, 10:29:23 pm
I have actually read the entire thread, but my impression of it is pretty mushy. I remember the beginning of the last BM I was in being much more coherent somehow.
Remuthra sticks out like a sore thumb. But I haven't seen him crack yet. Read is still null.
The Soldier is very professional. Like a proper soldier.
Nerjin is Nerjin. Also, who jumped on Nerjin for using an IC voice? I will bite your legs off.
Shakerag is cracking the whip.
IronyOwl is ... an owl, I guess? Hard to read ICs with newbie juice all over the place.
Sphaghetti seems to know what he's doing. He's at least talking like he does.
That's all that I can remember. If I didn't mention somebody, it's because I don't remember them. I'll remedy that soon enough.
I'll scour the thread looking for unanswered questions tomorrow, or tonight if I have time, but I need to devote my time to the other game I'm in since I'm in the spotlight atm.
Post by: The Soldier on February 26, 2013, 12:49:52 am
First of all, LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py) says I've changed vote targets a total of 4 times, and so have most of the other players in the game, including you. The basis for your question is either unfounded or you should be grilling everyone else about it too.Nerjin: Do you intend to use your early hunting to coast through today? Even your most recent vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4052247#msg4052247) for superBlast came with no question, no pressure. Why?
Reads:
Nerjin: I'd feel a lot better about him if I saw some content from him. He's done basically no hunting since he voted for Remuthra way back here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4047449#msg4047449) Looks to be activelurking scum in my book.
No vote and no pressure because I felt I had said everythingthing that could be said at that point. Plus after that was a weekend and I had other things to do. I like mafia, but not enough to sacrifice my social life.
As for scum-hunting no one has said anything that really sticks out to me. I suppose that does set up a case for active-lurking so I can understand where you're coming from my friend, however I would contend that I post fairly frequently and handle the small to moderate amount of posts that happen when I am absent.
But you do raise an excellent point, I should ask a question. Why do you Soldier switch votes so often? Is it for pressure? Seems rather risky this late in the day.
But to answer your question, yes, it's for pressure. I have completely consistent internet access and knowledge of when I'm able to use the computer, so I won't get caught off-guard by day end. Might as well gather as much info as possible.
Also, it's not a question of your number of posts, it's a question of your usefulness to the town. About half of your posts contain no hunting whatsoever. My lesser scum suspects (Remu, Spaghetti, superBlast/Captain Ford by proxy) have at least attempted to appear helpful. You just haven't done much of anything, really.
Captain Ford: Ah, a commanding officer. I will gladly stand at attention! /joke
More relevantly, can you explain superBlast's actions?
(Side note: the person you missed was borno.)
Remuthra: Your most recent read list says I'm leaning town, whereas before I was leaning scum. What changed?
Head is pounding like it's going to explode. More tomorrow, since it's already about 10:00 PM here.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 26, 2013, 01:45:49 am
Post by: borno on February 26, 2013, 05:15:16 am
No. My only vote for him was here,I'm too busy to actually go back and check, but you and several other people were voting Remuthra, weren't you? That's a bandwagon of sorts.I'm not sure what you're referencing to here. None of the votes I have made have made anyone jump onto any type of wagon, band or not. And yeah, while it's probably too early for lining up a D2 lynch, most people are thinking that Remuthra's scum, so I think it would be best to pursue someone else on the side while also pursuing Remuthra (Albeit not as much). And hey, if superBlast is scum, we end up having a lynch target, that is not necessarily for D2 through.Lining up an easy D2 target already, eh? What do you think of prepping a D2 lynch before you've even seen the results of your D1 bandwagon?A question for you: do you consider superBlast's mistakes worse than Remuthra's earlier evasiveness?The evasiveness of Remuthra is definitely scummy, but I'm finding superBlast quite scummy also with all his mistakes, and I'm chasing him because having only one person to pursue is not really good if it can be helped in this game, because in D2 we have another person to chase after right in front of us.
Actually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?And by then most people had moved onto different targets, so it wasn't really a bandwagon.
Captain Ford:
newbie juice all over the placeOH GOD THE MENTAL IMAGES MAKE THEM STOP
Anyway, it is D2, and the only person you thought was scummy just got murdered, flipping town. You have no suspicions other than that, how do you gain your targets?
Shakerag:
I see this as role fishing because I was more focussed on scum-hunting than staying alive, and the question was what would you do as doctor. If I had answered scum-hunting, then the scum would probably know if I were a doctor.Do tell how this is rolefishing, borno.@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?That's a tough one, but I think that lasting as long as possible would be the best idea, since then you have more chance to help people live...
Actually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?
NQT:
Roleblocker or Godfather, and why.
Post by: Shakerag on February 26, 2013, 11:01:21 am
Reasons:You are missing something from this post of yours. I will leave it as an exercise to you to figure it out.
Previously kind of flaily, but mostly because RVS.
Now is past the time for RVS, and he doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly suspicious.
Shakerag is cracking the whip.
newbie juice all over the place.I'm not sayin'; I'm just sayin'.
Captain Ford: I expect your next post to contain scumhunting and not just answering questions.
[Okay, I see the 'b' word starting to pop up, so I'm going to give my speech about bandwagoning. A lot of votes on one particular player does not a bandwagon make. If four players are voting player X, but all four players have given good reasons for voting player X, there is no bandwagon.
If players A and B vote player X with good reasons, player C just votes player X, and player D votes player X with good reasons, the only player that is bandwagoning is player C.
If you are voting with a crowd without good reasons of your own, or are encouraging other players to vote someone without good reasons, then we have bandwagoning.
Scum will try to slip in on a popular vote with poor reasons or with borrowed reasons to try and blend in with the crowd. This ties in with another very important point. Most anything you do, even if it would be scummy otherwise, is acceptable with good reasons.
If you vote someone and have good reasons for doing so, you're likely not going to be called on it. If you vote someone and have poor or no reasons for doing so, your ass is going to be grilled about it.]
Captain Ford:[You appear to be asking an RVS question. If you feel the need to be doing so at this point in the game then I'm going to propose you're doing something wrong.]
Anyway, it is D2, and the only person you thought was scummy just got murdered, flipping town. You have no suspicions other than that, how do you gain your targets?
I see this as role fishing because I was more focussed on scum-hunting than staying alive, and the question was what would you do as doctor. If I had answered scum-hunting, then the scum would probably know if I were a doctor.I'm going to say no, because that feels like affirming the consequent. Say you did answer scum-hunting:
Doctors are more focused on scum-hunting than staying alive.
borno is more focused on scum-hunting than staying alive.
Therefore, borno is a doctor.
Which, of course, doesn't take into consideration that townies in general should be more concerned about scum-hunting than staying alive.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 26, 2013, 01:05:42 pm
Spaghetti:How exactly would attacking and scumhunting at will constitute a "background play style?"Which doesn't fix the issue- you're saying that to avoid attention by scum, you'd build a case on someone and then push it hard? Meaning you'd build and push a case on not-scum to avoid scum looking at you too closely?Ah, I think I was answering the question as if the scum was leading a pretty successful attack against me. To simply not attract attention I'd avoid answering questions incorrectly, for a start, and prefer a background play style. Sure, attack people and scum hunt as much as I please, but certainly don't do any claiming, fake or not, without incredibly good reason.
Perhaps a "more" in there would help. Since I'm new I wouldn't attempt roleclaiming unless it would obviously yield something useful, so I have a less aggressive (not sure about this being the right word, but I hope you get the idea) playstyle than others might, for now. In essence, don't go claiming roles because scum will kill you for it.
Also, if you were answering from the perspective of scum leading an attack on you, why did you earlier say:That you'd build a case on "someone else" first, and only if that failed go after the (apparently scum) people leading the wagon on you?No, on somebody else. During the course of scum hunting I would eventually find someone to push and break. I could then start shouting and screaming about that if somebody tried to bring me down.I would deflect it to other people. Build up a good case against someone else, and push it hard if votes started falling on my head. If that failed, then I would push against those leading the bandwagon against me and try to expose them while they're weak on the offence. Try to reveal them to the people following for the wagon.You'd deflect scum's attention onto someone else by building a good case on them?
Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 26, 2013, 01:54:00 pm
Captain Ford: Ah, a commanding officer. I will gladly stand at attention! /jokeAt ease, soldier.
More relevantly, can you explain superBlast's actions?Sure. He's panicky and really, really overthinks things, just like the last game he was in, where he subbed in, and promptly got lynched as he drenched the forum in his own paranoia.
Oh wait, no. He lynched himself (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120310.msg3980285#msg3980285) after I explicitly told him to extend the day if he managed to post in time. (he was a vanilla townie)
...now I haven't actually looked to see what it was he did this game that you're referring to. I'll get back to you with more specifics after I've done a thorough read-through.
(Side note: the person you missed was borno.)This game has like nine players, right? I'm pretty sure I missed more than one.
borno:
Anyway, it is D2, and the only person you thought was scummy just got murdered, flipping town. You have no suspicions other than that, how do you gain your targets?Oh crap. Did I miss the day end? Are there actually only seven players left?
...oh wait. That's an RVS question. -_-
Answer: I would reread and probe the other players, while looking over the information I already had in the new light of knowing at least one of them is scum. In short, by hunting.
Shakerag:
Spoiler: Off-Topic (click to show/hide)
Captain Ford: I expect your next post to contain scumhunting and not just answering questions.Ah, I see. Please bear with me a little bit longer. I'm making this post to get caught up with the present before I go digging into the past.
PPE: And then Spaghetti7 posts and I'm staring at something that immediately captures my interest.
Spaghetti7: What the crap. Did you just admit you'd bus another townie to save yourself?
Post by: Captain Ford on February 26, 2013, 02:02:02 pm
Oh wait, I'm one of them. So I only missed two people then. I think the other one was NQT.(Side note: the person you missed was borno.)This game has like nine players, right? I'm pretty sure I missed more than one.
*checks* Yeah, it was NQT. With only two posts, it's no surprise I don't have a read on him yet.
And I guess borno just failed to make an impression.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 26, 2013, 06:08:59 pm
Spoiler: Things that superBlast did (click to show/hide)
...and that took me about three hours. But it was productive.
My opinion is that superBlast was doing a fantastic job, but he lacked self-confidence. He asked good questions, but he folded to criticism a little too quickly, and accepted other people telling him his arguments were WIFOM when they weren't. He asked good questions, and his answers were really on the ball. I hope he reads this and realizes that he's not nearly as bad a player as he thinks he is.
Now, because my detailed investigation pulled up red flags on borno, I'm going to give him the same treatment.
Spoiler: Borno's Posts (click to show/hide)
...and there goes another hour and a half. But it was productive.
borno:
What did you mean when you said "Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards"?Also the point about me forgetting the scum IC was... well I really did forget about him. My real point was what I said after that. If I was scum I'd be asking him for scum advice and not asking in the game. That's defiantly a stupid idea.That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?
Why did you unvote Remuthra? Do you understand why "not fair" isn't a good reason?@borno It's a good question, as you yourself admitted. And it's only a role fish if you are dumb enough to give away anything.And where are we. A BM. People aren't necessarily dumb, but they are definitely new and a bit confused as to what to do. But I'm going to Unvote you for now though, since it's not really fair to vote you for a question that I myself admitted was good.
Nerjin:
Remember when you said this?
superBlast: Don't ask blatant WIFOM.
You chainsawed for Remuthra. You pulled a double standard where you gave Remuthra friendly advice for a bad answer, and voted superBlast for asking a good question, effectively scaring him off. Admittedly, it didn't take much to cause superBlast to give in to self-doubt, but it doesn't change the fact that you showed very naked favoritism early in the game.
Why?
PPE: WOW. Nobody has posted in over five hours? I thought for sure I was going to come back and find a dozen posts to catch up on.
...darn, I'm almost disappointed now.
Post by: Shakerag on February 26, 2013, 06:19:54 pm
Extend
P.S. NQT, IronyOwl, and borno need to quit humping the fence and find someone scummy to vote.
PPE: Goddamnit, Ford. [P.P.S. You just set yourself up to get lynched, assuming last votecount is correct.]
...and that took me about three hours. But it was productive.I hope you feel so, because I'm not reading that wall of text.
...and there goes another hour and a half. But it was productive.tl;dr
Post by: Captain Ford on February 26, 2013, 06:42:05 pm
PPE: Goddamnit, Ford. [P.P.S. You just set yourself up to get lynched, assuming last votecount is correct.]What? Dammit. I misread the votecount. I thought superBlast only had one vote from Nerjin.
Well, I'm not going to tie the vote back up. So Extension.
I really, really hope not. Like I said, it's for superBlast mostly. It's also for me to refer back to....and that took me about three hours. But it was productive.I hope you feel so, because I'm not reading that wall of text.
If I'd known superBlast was on death row, I probably wouldn't have put in as much effort. But I did what I had to do to get a good grip on the game in a short timespan.
I've overtaxed my brain, though. I can actually feel the neural pathways in my brain aching from the changes.
spaghetti7: What's up with all the bad answers?
Post by: Nerjin on February 26, 2013, 06:54:42 pm
Post by: The Soldier on February 26, 2013, 07:39:09 pm
Extend, sounds like we need more time.
Unofficial votecount, courtesy of the LurkerTracker:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Still waiting for responses to yesterday's post. I'll read through the thread and lay out my case for whoever I think is scummiest. For now, some more questions.
NQT, IronyOwl: Where are you? Been quite a while since your last posts. I haven't forgotten about my requests for your reads, either.
Captain Ford: I was going to point out that borno had answered your first question before... and then I realized that he'd never been asked that. So, borno, I'd be interested in hearing your answer as well.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 26, 2013, 09:40:10 pm
I've read everything superBlast said, and I'll stand by all of it. He may have been timid, but he asked good questions, followed up on leads, and defended his points when he knew he was right, all in spite of his own self-doubt.
He didn't ask any bad questions, and he didn't give any bad answers. His only flaw was lack of confidence, which has no bearing on alignment. (In my experience, newbies with a lack of confidence are usually more silent, because they can vent their nervousness primarily in scumchat, but I can't vouch for that beyond the few games I've played in)
(by the way, superBlast contacted me by PM and thanked me for making that post, so it was totally worth it. For what it's worth, he agrees completely that he was lacking in confidence)
Also, I realized I should probably address the two votes that were cast against superBlast.
Nerjin:
Superblast: Likely either scum or flailing newblet. I say this because he keeps tossing out WIFOM and while I’m not sure which it is, gauging by his behavior in the previous BM [as short as he was] I’m leaning towards Scum. I’m also getting a vibe of him trying to play himself as a victim. Pathological appeal and whatnot. More recently he’s begun to appeal a LOT more via emotional methods. I am always distrustful of emotional appeals.Bleh. This is it? You voted him in a list of reads without asking questions?
You're the one who accused him of WIFOM in the first place, so you're just tooting your own horn here. He accepted it because you were chiding him for bad play. I already addressed this point when I pointed out your chainsawing.
Emotional appeals? Really? Show me, because I read everything he posted and I think you're making that up.
Since you're not likely to post for the next couple days, I'd appreciate it if you at least withdraw your vote until you have time to consider what I've said.
And the other person who voted superBlast was ... Spaghetti7.
Oh, it's a pressure vote. Okay.Fair enough. Unvote Remuthra.QuoteDo you have reasons for this?For one, he hasn't formed any suspicion profiles for anyone except me, and doesn't state anything there. He's not lurking, nor is he doing much to find scum.
superBlast, how important do you believe the Godfather is to the scum team, and how should he play?
My answer: The godfather's primary benefit to the scumteam is that he makes town investigation results unreliable, and that doesn't even require him to be the game. If he's actually in the game, then his immunity to the scumteam's biggest threat is certainly useful. He should, of course, play by being the towniest townie there ever was.
Oh, and then he should kill people at night, of course.
Disclaimer: I have a headache and my post may be bit more "Dariush" because of it. I hope I haven't been too intimidating.
This question popped into my head earlier today, and it's not going to go away until I ask it.
Remuthra: If you were scum, how would you respond to this question?
Post by: notquitethere on February 27, 2013, 02:20:16 am
"I have observed you all, and cast the runes and here at last is the demonstrables of my ponderances..."
The Post With All The Reads
I have read through the thread and made copious notes and here are my preliminary reads:
Soldier: Bona fide I'll-eat-my-own-hat-if-he's-not town. Town-tells include: swiftly rescinding random vote, following up missed questions and lurkers, pulls up others on their lack of scum hunting. Owns up to his own mistakes. Null tells: he's an enthusiastic and competent player.
Remuthra: Weak scum. Scum tells include: standoffish scum hunting technique at the start, following IC lead on Borno, short posts, flail attacks. Null tells: Inexperienced, sense of humour, doesn't have a villainous personality, his play style is going to be hard to read as he has experience in a very different mafia culture.
Superblast: Essentially null. Scum tells include: possibly a wagon-hopper, mild Vizzini overtones (http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/wp-content/uploads/princess-bride.jpg). Town tells include: suspecting Borno. Null tells: flailing newb, very jokey, sometimes genuinely funny.
Captain Ford: Mild town. Town tells include: performs keen analysis, is fair when it comes to recognising pressure votes, suspects Borno. Scum tells: stands by even the slightly dubious Superblast content. Null tells: forgot about me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Y_9sB92dJzM#t=55s).
Nerjin: Nullish. Scum tells include: uses votes to lays into newbs for newbishness. Town tells: Gives honest looking appraisal of other players when asked. Null tells: serious, doesn't look to be on the same team as Soldier.
Spaghetti: Null to mild scum. Scum tells include: doesn't believe in questioning everyone, vote hops. Town tells include: swiftly rescinds random vote when the target is wagoned by others. Null tells: random approach to doctoring.
Borno: Scum city, population Borno. Scum tells include: over-speculation bordering WIFOM, Bandwagoned Nerjin in the RVS, anti-logic, unvoted Nerjin after reasonable response only to jump back on the Blastwagon, very defensive when prodded mid-game, jumps on the Remuthra train with dubious reasons, unvotes when grilled, worried about being lynched in his sleep. Town tells: extends. Null tells: appears to have some experience, aggressive.
Shakerag: Null. Town tells: follows up other players missed questions and lurking. Scum tells: appeared to bandwagon Remuthra in the RVS, (but for admittedly good looking reasons). Null tells: can be a good IC, rational, crypto-aggressive.
IronyOwl: Null, leaning town. Scum tells: lurks like it's going out of fashion. Null tells: lurking is Owl's general playstyle, genuinely nice, has a sense of humour, rational, probably actually busy. Town tells: suspects Borno.
Questions and Answers Coming Soon.
Post by: notquitethere on February 27, 2013, 02:34:36 am
Roleblocker or Godfather, and why.
Godfather. Although Roleblocker would be more fun to play (as you get to make an extra decision every day), Godfather is probably more useful throughout the game, whereas roleblocker only really starts to be useful towards the end of the game. To be honest, the existence of Godfather is mostly for town's detriment rather than scum's benefit: from experience playing as a cop in the last BM, town cops are filled with doubt when they get back a town read and there is no reassuringly dead godfather to put at rest the doubts.
Remuthra, how would you characterise the typical playstyle, or 'meta', that you encountered playing mafia elsewhere and how does it differ from the general style here at Bay12?
Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?
Post by: IronyOwl on February 27, 2013, 04:04:30 am
Remuthra:
You haven't voted yet, IronyOwl. Why?Good question. The short answer is that I don't think it'd be very productive; there's nobody I particularly want the extra pressure on and nobody I feel confident I want dead.
Under normal circumstances, of course, that's fairly weak reasoning, but I feel on D1 of a BM not voting anyone, at least initially, is at least somewhat reasonable.
borno:
Yeah, you're right. I was either confusing a bandwagon with an easy target or thinking of earlier events.I'm too busy to actually go back and check, but you and several other people were voting Remuthra, weren't you? That's a bandwagon of sorts.No. My only vote for him was here,
-post-
And by then most people had moved onto different targets, so it wasn't really a bandwagon.
Also, as it turns out the post I was referring to (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4050609#msg4050609) there was the only time you were acting scummy. More specifically, I was getting sort of a "man there's so many options for a mislynch!" vibe from you talking about how this person was scummy but also this person was scummy and man you want a target D2.
On that note, who are your current suspicions?
Spaghetti:
Perhaps a "more" in there would help. Since I'm new I wouldn't attempt roleclaiming unless it would obviously yield something useful, so I have a less aggressive (not sure about this being the right word, but I hope you get the idea) playstyle than others might, for now. In essence, don't go claiming roles because scum will kill you for it.This is fairly standard practice though, isn't it? I mean, the question was kind of odd to begin with- why would you want to avoid scum attentions, exactly?- but this still seems like your answer is "don't do anything stupid."
I'd also label roleclaiming as... perhaps bold? Loud? It's not so much a matter of aggression as, well, being bold, playing your hand, or in extreme cases pulling a gambit.
Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.Mmm? This seems odd also. You're saying you'd:
-Find a scummy target
-Harvest as many tells as you can
-Make them look weak
So, Step 1: Prey On The Infirm
Then, IF voted by multiple people, some of whom have weak reasons:
-Try to train them off onto someone else
Or, Step 2: Deflect Suspicion
What question were you trying to answer with this?
Shakerag:
P.S. NQT, IronyOwl, and borno need to quit humping the fence and find someone scummy to vote.This is true.
Soldier:
NQT, IronyOwl: Where are you? Been quite a while since your last posts. I haven't forgotten about my requests for your reads, either.Yeah, sorry about that.
I went back and found borno's malicious calculations, which as it turns out was just this:
As I explained to borno himself, something about this just struck me as a scum in a mislynch candy shop style post. "Oh, this guy's stuff is definitely scummy, but there's also scummy things over here, and I want a serving read for me on D2!"borno:The evasiveness of Remuthra is definitely scummy, but I'm finding superBlast quite scummy also with all his mistakes, and I'm chasing him because having only one person to pursue is not really good if it can be helped in this game, because in D2 we have another person to chase after right in front of us.
A question for you: do you consider superBlast's mistakes worse than Remuthra's earlier evasiveness?
So, weaker than I had remembered, but it does still strike me as potentially suspicious. I'll have to do some proper hunting of him to figure that out.
Captain Ford:
I forgot to add this bit:Really? That's kind of odd, then, because superBlast was voting Remuthra with intent to kill him, whereas you're not. Why the discrepancy there?
I've read everything superBlast said, and I'll stand by all of it. He may have been timid, but he asked good questions, followed up on leads, and defended his points when he knew he was right, all in spite of his own self-doubt.
He didn't ask any bad questions, and he didn't give any bad answers. His only flaw was lack of confidence, which has no bearing on alignment. (In my experience, newbies with a lack of confidence are usually more silent, because they can vent their nervousness primarily in scumchat, but I can't vouch for that beyond the few games I've played in)
Post by: The Soldier on February 27, 2013, 04:15:31 am
NQT: Good reads, and I agree with them for the most part. Would personally rank Nerjin as scummier, however. That said, I assume that borno's "overdefensiveness" is seen here?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I said I'd have a case laid out, but that will have to come tomorrow. It's already 1:00 AM here, and I need to sleep. Did we get the extend yet or no?
PSA: vote is now tied, Captain Ford[2] vs borno[2].
Post by: Nerjin on February 27, 2013, 04:40:31 am
It's worth noting that Nerjin posted in his other mafia games today with content, but not this one. This does bad things to his town points.
Yes, and it's also worth noting that I've been having waning interest in Mafia up until the point where I suddenly got it into my heart to scum-hunt again. It's also worth noting that I did so around 11PM where I have to get up at 4 in the morning. Expect a better post later on.
Post by: borno on February 27, 2013, 07:06:25 am
I was asking it because he had only just come into the game and I didn't really have any reads on him.Captain Ford:[You appear to be asking an RVS question. If you feel the need to be doing so at this point in the game then I'm going to propose you're doing something wrong.]
Anyway, it is D2, and the only person you thought was scummy just got murdered, flipping town. You have no suspicions other than that, how do you gain your targets?
Spoiler: Analysis of Captain Ford's Analysis (click to show/hide)
NQT:
BornoNQT:ScumBandwagon city, populationBornoNQT.
Scum tells include: over-speculation bordering WIFOM, Bandwagoned Nerjin in the RVS, anti-logic, unvoted Nerjin after reasonable response only to jump back on the Blastwagon, very defensive when prodded mid-game, jumps on the Remuthra train with dubious reasons, unvotes when grilled, worried about being lynched in his sleep. Town tells: extends. Null tells: appears to have some experience, aggressive.OK, what the fuck. Over speculation bordering WIFOM? The only WIFOM is the WIFOM which I joke admitted to. Bandwagon in RVS? P. I had perfectly good reasons for voting Nerjin, mainly pressure. Anti-logic? Read above. Yes, I did unvote Nerjin, no, I didn't bandwagon. You say I'm defensive? In the very same post you say as a null tell that I'm aggressive. My reasons for voting Remuthra was pressure. Unvotes when satisfied with answers. Also, please don't tell me you're scolding me for asking not to be killed in my sleep, it was a joke and someone else had done it too, yet you didn't seem to notice. All these reasons are pulled out of your ass so that Captain Ford, your scum buddy, wouldn't get voted out D1.
Sorry if I've come off a bit harsh, I'm moving houses and it's pretty stressful. Also, I might need to replace if anyone thinks I'm not posting enough, due to house moving. It sucks that all this stuff happens in the first mafia game I'm actually enjoying (even though it might not sound like it).
Post by: Teneb on February 27, 2013, 10:06:19 am
Nerjin(1):The Soldier
The Soldier(0):
Captain Ford(3):Nerjin, Sphagetti7, borno
borno(2):Captain Ford, notquitethere
notquitethere(0):
Sphagetti7(1):Remuthra
Remuthra(1):Shakerag
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: IronyOwl
4 votes for extension, 3 required. Extension granted.
Day now ends on 01/03/2013 at 22:00 BRT (GMT-3)
Post by: Shakerag on February 27, 2013, 11:54:51 am
(by the way, superBlast contacted me by PM and thanked me for making that post, so it was totally worth it. For what it's worth, he agrees completely that he was lacking in confidence)[And I'm sure most of us were in our first games. superBlast is welcome to come back anytime for another go at it. You won't get confidence if you don't try/play.]
Disclaimer: I have a headache and my post may be bit more "Dariush" because of it. I hope I haven't been too intimidating.[AHAHAHAHAHA HAH HAH HAH no. Not even close.]
Shakerag: Null. Town tells: follows up other players missed questions and lurking. Scum tells: appeared to bandwagon Remuthra in the RVS, (but for admittedly good looking reasons). Null tells: can be a good IC, rational, crypto-aggressive.Emphasis added. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
NQT: [Less RVS, more analyzing what's already been said and/or grilling players.]
I was asking it because he had only just come into the game and I didn't really have any reads on him.[Okay, but then why couldn't you have asked him a more current-game-relevant question rather than an RVS question? Something like asking him to give an analysis of interactions between two players, or press him on one of his initial reads?]
IronyOwl: You're having quite the heart-to-heart with Spaghetti7 over there. Come to anything conclusive yet?
The Soldier: What's your read on the dialogue between IronyOwl and Spaghetti7?
notquitethere: I'm going to pull a Bookthras (he's known for doing this sort of thing) and ask you to ask IronyOwl a non-RVS question.
Deathsword: I don't think borno is voting for himself.
Post by: Tiruin on February 27, 2013, 11:58:10 am
{Yep, not even close there. While I sometimes don't agree with Dar's meta, his essence is more pointy and assertive :PDisclaimer: I have a headache and my post may be bit more "Dariush" because of it. I hope I haven't been too intimidating.[AHAHAHAHAHA HAH HAH HAH no. Not even close.]
Intimidating in the way that it makes you reply based on "I challenge your honor!" thing.
And now retreating to the peanut gallery...Or galley, what Jim said.}
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 27, 2013, 12:10:55 pm
Spaghetti7: What the crap. Did you just admit you'd bus another townie to save yourself?No. This person who is giving off scum tells, I believe it is safe to assume, would be scum.
spaghetti7: What's up with all the bad answers?I'm new to the game. I can't really say anything else. I've got no experience with answering RVS questions and haven't read the guide in a while. I've been trying to find my feet throughout, but I'm fairly sure I've only discovered a leg.
Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.
Spaghetti:Take it as that, if that's easier.Perhaps a "more" in there would help. Since I'm new I wouldn't attempt roleclaiming unless it would obviously yield something useful, so I have a less aggressive (not sure about this being the right word, but I hope you get the idea) playstyle than others might, for now. In essence, don't go claiming roles because scum will kill you for it.This is fairly standard practice though, isn't it? I mean, the question was kind of odd to begin with- why would you want to avoid scum attentions, exactly?- but this still seems like your answer is "don't do anything stupid."
I'd also label roleclaiming as... perhaps bold? Loud? It's not so much a matter of aggression as, well, being bold, playing your hand, or in extreme cases pulling a gambit.Those are the words I was looking for! Thanks.
Yes. Tells = scum. Scum = weak.Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.Mmm? This seems odd also. You're saying you'd:
-Find a scummy target
-Harvest as many tells as you can
-Make them look weak
So, Step 1: Prey On The InfirmThis was a large extension of the suspision question. I answered it wrong at first, as if it were what if I was about to be lynched. This is a mix of my made-up bit of the question and the actual question.
Then, IF voted by multiple people, some of whom have weak reasons:
-Try to train them off onto someone else
Or, Step 2: Deflect Suspicion
What question were you trying to answer with this?
Post by: notquitethere on February 27, 2013, 01:19:20 pm
Quote
NQT: Good reads, and I agree with them for the most part. Would personally rank Nerjin as scummier, however. That said, I assume that borno's "overdefensiveness" is seen here?I don't know about you, but that looks more "jokey" than anything...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You, elsewhere in your list, call jokeyness and having a sense of humor nulltells. Why, then, is this not the case for borno?
The examples you cite are fine instances of Borno's humour and I don't have a problem with that. No, the defensiveness I had in mind was when Borno was first voted against, here:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Borno
OK, what the fuck. Over speculation bordering WIFOM? The only WIFOM is the WIFOM which I joke admitted to. Bandwagon in RVS? P. I had perfectly good reasons for voting Nerjin, mainly pressure. Anti-logic? Read above. Yes, I did unvote Nerjin, no, I didn't bandwagon. You say I'm defensive? In the very same post you say as a null tell that I'm aggressive. My reasons for voting Remuthra was pressure. Unvotes when satisfied with answers. Also, please don't tell me you're scolding me for asking not to be killed in my sleep, it was a joke and someone else had done it too, yet you didn't seem to notice. All these reasons are pulled out of your ass so that Captain Ford, your scum buddy, wouldn't get voted out D1.The best I can say Borno is that once I started suspecting you when I was reading through the posts, a confirmation bias might have arose meaning that all further information was given undue extra weight in light of that suspicion.
Accusing me of protecting Ford as my scum buddy is amusing (as I got that same false accusation of being Ford's scum buddy in the last game I played) but I don't see how it's founded. He did his Borno-analysis after I gave my reads.
Still you didn't answer my question: "Could you tell me what you think should be the primary basis for making a proper lynch vote? (As opposed to merely a pressure vote or random-vote-stage vote)."
Shakerag
NQT: [Less RVS, more analyzing what's already been said and/or grilling players.]I can see how you might think my questions are random vote stage questions, but they're actually follow-ups on the reads I posted. I want to be able to put these player's earlier comments that I found suspicious into context. I can explain why I asked those three specific questions to those specific people if you like.
Regarding reference to wagoning in my initial reads: I noted down every time a player voted for another player that already had a vote on. This isn't by itself inherently suspicious, but if a player keeps doing this and especially if a player always does this, then there might be something concrete to call them out on.
Quote
notquitethere: I'm going to pull a Bookthras (he's known for doing this sort of thing) and ask you to ask IronyOwl a non-RVS question.That seems reasonable. You'll want to see whether I know how to ask non-RVS style questions.
Ironyowl
If you were in Ford's shoes, would you stand by everything SB said? Would your decision be affected by whether or not you were scum?I've read everything superBlast said, and I'll stand by all of it.Really? That's kind of odd, then, because superBlast was voting Remuthra with intent to kill him, whereas you're not. Why the discrepancy there?
Spaghetti
I only ask because you seemed to think Nerjin's technique of asking everyone questions was a poor one. Do you still think that? Is your vote on Ford at the moment just a pressure vote on someone you don't think is actually very scummy?Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.
Post by: Teneb on February 27, 2013, 01:21:09 pm
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 27, 2013, 01:36:58 pm
SpaghettiI guess I just wasn't accustomed to it. Now it does seem like a good idea, although I'm not sure I could think up that many questions and I find it far more simple to ask one at a time.I only ask because you seemed to think Nerjin's technique of asking everyone questions was a poor one. Do you still think that? Is your vote on Ford at the moment just a pressure vote on someone you don't think is actually very scummy?Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.
Also, yes, thanks for reminding me. Unvote Captain Ford and Vote Borno.
That was only a pressure vote, now I'll put my vote on the actual scummy looking one around here.
Post by: borno on February 27, 2013, 04:49:14 pm
Accusing me of protecting Ford as my scum buddy is amusing (as I got that same false accusation of being Ford's scum buddy in the last game I played) but I don't see how it's founded. He did his Borno-analysis after I gave my reads./me LIES * cough*
Still you didn't answer my question: "Could you tell me what you think should be the primary basis for making a proper lynch vote? (As opposed to merely a pressure vote or random-vote-stage vote)."Evidence, of course. Something you two are definitely lacking, yet nobody cares.
Spaghetti7:
OK, what the hell. This is a fucking bandwagon right here, for all you newbs who don't know what the definition of the word is. I'm willing to accept this as a lazy towny trying for an easy lynch, because there are only two scum. But really, REASONS, ASSHOLE.Spaghetti7:I guess I just wasn't accustomed to it. Now it does seem like a good idea, although I'm not sure I could think up that many questions and I find it far more simple to ask one at a time.I only ask because you seemed to think Nerjin's technique of asking everyone questions was a poor one. Do you still think that? Is your vote on Ford at the moment just a pressure vote on someone you don't think is actually very scummy?Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.
Also, yes, thanks for reminding me. Unvote Captain Ford and Vote Borno.
That was only a pressure vote, now I'll put my vote on the actual scummy looking one around here.
[/stillgrumpy]
Post by: Nerjin on February 27, 2013, 06:28:28 pm
Post by: Remuthra on February 27, 2013, 09:38:35 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on February 28, 2013, 12:26:24 am
Really? That's kind of odd, then, because superBlast was voting Remuthra with intent to kill him, whereas you're not. Why the discrepancy there?Remuthra is throwing off scumtells with practically every post he makes. Truth be told, though, I've seen town newbies do many of those things, but not so many of them in a row.
I feel like I could probably press Remuthra into a newbie death spiral (as you call it) if I tried (like I did to +!!scientist!!+ in the last game). But I don't think that's productive and borno's behavior stood out to me more. Particularly the part where he voted superBlast for a "slip" that was actually a valid point. He then unvotes later (Reply #134) stating "you screwed up, and you're still scummy, but I unvote you for now".
Borno: My goodness. The spoilered stuff wasn't a case against you. It was just my personal notes. Of course they're not every favorable. I'm suspicious of you.
It should be telling that I only found two things worthy of questioning you about.
*cracks knuckles* I'm going to enjoy this more than I probably should.
...when you capitalize a word that isn't a proper noun, it looks like the start of a sentence.No, I meant the bolded part logic. As in, the WIFOMy part. I thought that was obvious, apparently it was not, so let me make this clear. If no-one were to use logic in mafia boards, mafia would not exist as we know it.That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?What did you mean when you said "Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards"?
And what are you saying "no" to? I asked you for clarification. You're reacting like I accused you of something.
The answer I was fishing for was: "You should only unvote someone because they're not suspicious, not because suspecting them isn't fair." Voting someone in the RVS stage isn't fair, but we do it anyway because we have to create something to work with.Why did you unvote Remuthra? Do you understand why "not fair" isn't a good reason?No, I had actually stated that the question was 'good', so I couldn't vote him over that. And not fair is a good reason to vote/unvote someone. For example, if you were to vote someone with no reason, that wouldn't be very fair, would it? No. And it'd get you lynched. So yes, unvoting someone for not being very fair is a good reason.
Unvoting in that manner relieved the pressure from him, hurting your chances of getting a read on him. That's why it was wrong.
"sorry about that"Reply #134: He responds unnecessarily to IronyOwl's read on him. He also comes off as being more concerned about pandering to Irony than about finding scum.It wasn't unnecessary, and it wasn't pandering. I was actually curious as to why he found me scummy. And I'm afraid you've mixed up what bandwagoning means. As explained in Shakerag's post, bandwagoning is when you vote someone while other people are too without any good reason.
"I really don't want to screw it up this time"
"I'll be less serious from now on"
That's pandering.
Spoiler: Nitpicking at my personal notes (click to show/hide)
tl;dr, Almost your entire argument against me is made up out of misinterpreting what I say and taking my posts out of context. I was suspicious of superBlast before, but now I know for sure that you two are scum. Vote Captain Ford.I'm sorry, those were my notes, not a case against you. Although, I see now that I didn't really give you much of a choice. My sincerest apologies for the misunderstanding and for forcing you into a corner like that. It isn't really fair that I chose to do that to you and not to anyone else.
But your overreactive OMGUS is way out of line with what I posted. I was very clear about the fact that my notes contained bias, and that I never expected anyone to read them. You even quoted that part. I'm guessing you either didn't read it or didn't understand it.
Calling me out as scum for that is pretty far out there. I put a pressure vote on you and asked a couple of questions. Maybe you'd like to try this again?
Naming the scumteam D1 - *sigh*. I'll let the ICs tell you what's up with that.BornoNQT:ScumBandwagon city, populationBornoNQT.Scum tells include: over-speculation bordering WIFOM, Bandwagoned Nerjin in the RVS, anti-logic, unvoted Nerjin after reasonable response only to jump back on the Blastwagon, very defensive when prodded mid-game, jumps on the Remuthra train with dubious reasons, unvotes when grilled, worried about being lynched in his sleep. Town tells: extends. Null tells: appears to have some experience, aggressive.OK, what the fuck. Over speculation bordering WIFOM? The only WIFOM is the WIFOM which I joke admitted to. Bandwagon in RVS? P. I had perfectly good reasons for voting Nerjin, mainly pressure. Anti-logic? Read above. Yes, I did unvote Nerjin, no, I didn't bandwagon. You say I'm defensive? In the very same post you say as a null tell that I'm aggressive. My reasons for voting Remuthra was pressure. Unvotes when satisfied with answers. Also, please don't tell me you're scolding me for asking not to be killed in my sleep, it was a joke and someone else had done it too, yet you didn't seem to notice. All these reasons are pulled out of your ass so that Captain Ford, your scum buddy, wouldn't get voted out D1.
It's possible that NQT is town, and defending another town player. It's also possible that NQT is scum, and defending a town player. You already admitted you'd defend another person you thought was town. Accusing NQT of being scum for taking actions that you yourself defended is illogical and inconsistent, isn't it?
Spoiler: Off Topic (click to show/hide)
Post by: borno on February 28, 2013, 03:06:04 am
It should be telling that I only found two things worthy of questioning you about.Well then I done goofed up.
I realised that and considered editing my post, but really didn't feel like it. And I was saying no about what you said....when you capitalize a word that isn't a proper noun, it looks like the start of a sentence.No, I meant the bolded part logic. As in, the WIFOMy part. I thought that was obvious, apparently it was not, so let me make this clear. If no-one were to use logic in mafia boards, mafia would not exist as we know it.That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?What did you mean when you said "Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards"?
And what are you saying "no" to? I asked you for clarification. You're reacting like I accused you of something.
But... But... I checked the post... GOD DAMNIT!Yeah, this is account of things that happened. You haven't done that stuff yet, so it isn't mentioned here. It is mentioned later, though.(As with the last set of spoilers, this one will also have bias. I started out more suspicious of him and became more objective about halfway through I discovered that my original suspicions were unfounded)Firstly, no shit. Secondly, I did let it go as soon as he answered me, in post #107. Thirdly, it was a rhetorical question. Fourthly… Uh? I never equated anything to anything in that post.
Reply #77: Votes Nerjin for using an IC voice. What the fuck. Sure, this is probably a pressure vote, but he doesn't let it go later on.
+ Answer to Soldier's RVS question is okay.
+ FoS's Remuthra for ignoring an invalid question. Except borno said "What question is so wrong that you chose to ignore it outright?", which indicates he didn't actually read the conversation and just saw an opportunity to FoS somebody.
+ Asks spaghetti a question (and not a bad one).
+ Answers spaghetti's question (which was directed at Nerjin), but his answer is off. Equating scumhunting with asking questions sounds like someone who has only a superficial understanding of scumhunting.
+ Calls out superBlast for being nervous, which he's correct about. He offers friendly advice. Nothing scummy here. (not sarcasm)
Also: "Asking questions is scum hunting" - your words.
Ugh. Like I said, it had been a long day, and when I finally arrived to my current living space, went to the mafia boards to find what looked to me like a huge angry scummy post. I even ignored the bias warning and went ahead with my counter angry post. Sorry for that. :-Xtl;dr, Almost your entire argument against me is made up out of misinterpreting what I say and taking my posts out of context. I was suspicious of superBlast before, but now I know for sure that you two are scum. Vote Captain Ford.I'm sorry, those were my notes, not a case against you. Although, I see now that I didn't really give you much of a choice. My sincerest apologies for the misunderstanding and for forcing you into a corner like that. It isn't really fair that I chose to do that to you and not to anyone else.
But your overreactive OMGUS is way out of line with what I posted. I was very clear about the fact that my notes contained bias, and that I never expected anyone to read them. You even quoted that part. I'm guessing you either didn't read it or didn't understand it.
Calling me out as scum for that is pretty far out there. I put a pressure vote on you and asked a couple of questions. Maybe you'd like to try this again?
Yeah, it's pretty nice, we're renting it for a year, then we're going to buy a house for real. Right now we're still in an apartment flat though.Spoiler: Off Topic (click to show/hide)
Feeling a bit better now, and just realised how much of an ass I made of myself. I probably deserve getting lynched now, it seems as though I probably won't be able to beat my 2 day record in mafia. Also, sorry if I didn't answer all your questions, I'm not really in the mood right now, I just skimmed over everything and answered what I thought was important.
Post by: Teneb on February 28, 2013, 11:50:51 am
Post by: Captain Ford on February 28, 2013, 02:12:11 pm
Well then I done goofed up.Yeah, you did, but like I said, I can see why you did, and your tone makes sense in light of that mistake. I'm not going to hold this mistake against you.
But... But... I checked the post... GOD DAMNIT!That's what I thought.
Ugh. Like I said, it had been a long day, and when I finally arrived to my current living space, went to the mafia boards to find what looked to me like a huge angry scummy post. I even ignored the bias warning and went ahead with my counter angry post. Sorry for that. :-XThat sounds entirely reasonable.
Spoiler: Off Topic (click to show/hide)
Feeling a bit better now, and just realised how much of an ass I made of myself. I probably deserve getting lynched now, it seems as though I probably won't be able to beat my 2 day record in mafia. Also, sorry if I didn't answer all your questions, I'm not really in the mood right now, I just skimmed over everything and answered what I thought was important.You don't deserve to get lynched for that, actually. Especially since you admitted to it. Just answer the rest of the questions when you have time.
Also, yes, thanks for reminding me. Unvote Captain Ford and Vote Borno.
That was only a pressure vote, now I'll put my vote on the actual scummy looking one around here.
Spaghetti7: Why is it you find borno to be the scummiest one around here?
(@Borno: Technically, he has a reason for voting you -- you're the "actual scummy looking one around here". But he needs to explain why that is)
Post by: Nerjin on February 28, 2013, 03:09:07 pm
I shouldn't have joined two at once.
Post by: The Soldier on February 28, 2013, 03:42:54 pm
Post by: Spaghetti7 on February 28, 2013, 04:08:19 pm
Post by: Shakerag on February 28, 2013, 04:15:16 pm
[Also, everyone, keep red color text to voting.]
Post by: Flying Dice on February 28, 2013, 04:17:22 pm
Post by: Teneb on February 28, 2013, 04:58:05 pm
I'll drop myself in as a replacement, though I've got two papers to write and a clan ops tonight so I might not post much today.
You'll be replacing remuthra. I'll send you the role.
Flying Dice has replaced remuthra
Post by: Flying Dice on February 28, 2013, 05:29:42 pm
Oh no, that's not what you said. You're not talking about scumhunting, you're talking about cultivating an easy target to divert suspicion from yourself. In other words the concern isn't with finding and revealing someone giving off tells, it's in keeping attention away from you and convincing town to lynch anyone other than yourself. Scum, scum, scum.Yes. Tells = scum. Scum = weak.Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.Mmm? This seems odd also. You're saying you'd:
-Find a scummy target
-Harvest as many tells as you can
-Make them look weak
Not acceptable. Saying "Oh, he looks like scum" isn't an acceptable reason for a vote, especially when they're already being voted by several people. Why are you voting for him?SpaghettiI guess I just wasn't accustomed to it. Now it does seem like a good idea, although I'm not sure I could think up that many questions and I find it far more simple to ask one at a time.I only ask because you seemed to think Nerjin's technique of asking everyone questions was a poor one. Do you still think that? Is your vote on Ford at the moment just a pressure vote on someone you don't think is actually very scummy?Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.
Also, yes, thanks for reminding me. Unvote Captain Ford and Vote Borno.
That was only a pressure vote, now I'll put my vote on the actual scummy looking one around here.
Spaghetti
EBWOP:Oh wait, I'm one of them. So I only missed two people then. I think the other one was NQT.(Side note: the person you missed was borno.)This game has like nine players, right? I'm pretty sure I missed more than one.
*checks* Yeah, it was NQT. With only two posts, it's no surprise I don't have a read on him yet.
And I guess borno just failed to make an impression.
Captain: Why did borno fly under your radar until you took the time to investigate him specifically?
Do tell how this is rolefishing, borno.@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?That's a tough one, but I think that lasting as long as possible would be the best idea, since then you have more chance to help people live...
Actually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?
[/quote]
I see this as role fishing because I was more focussed on scum-hunting than staying alive, and the question was what would you do as doctor. If I had answered scum-hunting, then the scum would probably know if I were a doctor.
[/quote]
Care to explain your reasoning here, borno? That makes no sense, as far as I can tell.
That was a fairly early D1 sampling of votes, why did you label it as bandwagoning?I'm too busy to actually go back and check, but you and several other people were voting Remuthra, weren't you? That's a bandwagon of sorts.I'm not sure what you're referencing to here. None of the votes I have made have made anyone jump onto any type of wagon, band or not. And yeah, while it's probably too early for lining up a D2 lynch, most people are thinking that Remuthra's scum, so I think it would be best to pursue someone else on the side while also pursuing Remuthra (Albeit not as much). And hey, if superBlast is scum, we end up having a lynch target, that is not necessarily for D2 through.Lining up an easy D2 target already, eh? What do you think of prepping a D2 lynch before you've even seen the results of your D1 bandwagon?A question for you: do you consider superBlast's mistakes worse than Remuthra's earlier evasiveness?The evasiveness of Remuthra is definitely scummy, but I'm finding superBlast quite scummy also with all his mistakes, and I'm chasing him because having only one person to pursue is not really good if it can be helped in this game, because in D2 we have another person to chase after right in front of us.
Shakerag: All of your recent posts have been concerned with encouraging other people to participate and voice their thoughts, rather than pressuring anyone directly. Why?
Extend.
Post by: Captain Ford on February 28, 2013, 09:40:20 pm
Captain: Why did borno fly under your radar until you took the time to investigate him specifically?I'm a replacement. I was reading the game in my spare time before I was replaced, and in that time I wasn't paying very close attention, nor did I get very far into the thread. borno didn't post until quite a while after the game started, and has posted about 1/3 as often as the other newbies, so I really hadn't seen anything from him at the time I made my first post.
Extend. I wonder what happens if we lose enough players that we don't have enough to pass an extension?
Deathsword: Can I request that you use the unambiguous yyyy-mm-dd format for dates, rather than american or british style dates? At first look, I thought the extension pushed the deadline forward to monday -- then realized the third of march is sunday, and then realized it wasn't the third of march at all, but the third of january. Then I realized you were
Post by: Teneb on February 28, 2013, 09:54:54 pm
Deathsword: Can I request that you use the unambiguous yyyy-mm-dd format for dates, rather than american or british style dates? At first look, I thought the extension pushed the deadline forward to monday -- then realized the third of march is sunday, and then realized it wasn't the third of march at all, but the third of january. Then I realized you werebritish-- wait, aren't you in brazil?
I'll post the deadline tomorrow (haven't done an official count yet, but I think there are enough extension votes). Dates are always DD/MM/YYYY. I'll start placing this in every deadline post.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 28, 2013, 11:01:39 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 01, 2013, 07:15:58 am
Post by: Shakerag on March 01, 2013, 11:40:12 am
Extend, just in case. I thought I only counted two.
Captain Ford: What's your case on borno again? Are you thinking he's scum, or trying to ask him to the prom? Because all I'm seeing you do lately in regards to him is act like you want to hold his hand and stare into his eyes.
Nerjin: [You suck. Well, come back anytime, although I'm not really sure you need another BM, IMO.]
The Soldier: [You suck too. Do come back, because I'm very interested in seeing you run through a full game or two.]
Spaghetti:I *think* what Spaghetti7 is trying to get at is that in order to ward off attack (by potential scum?) he would aggressively scumhunt (because scumhunting is what all good townies should do)? I think?Oh no, that's not what you said. You're not talking about scumhunting, you're talking about cultivating an easy target to divert suspicion from yourself. In other words the concern isn't with finding and revealing someone giving off tells, it's in keeping attention away from you and convincing town to lynch anyone other than yourself. Scum, scum, scum.Yes. Tells = scum. Scum = weak.Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.Mmm? This seems odd also. You're saying you'd:
-Find a scummy target
-Harvest as many tells as you can
-Make them look weak
[This whole dialogue feels like it's giving off miscommunication vibes to me.]
Shakerag: All of your recent posts have been concerned with encouraging other people to participate and voice their thoughts, rather than pressuring anyone directly. Why?It might have something to do with me being an IC. My personal philosphy is that while ICs are indeed players in the game as well, our main focus is on teaching you newblings. Obviously, I and the other IC could come in the game guns a-blazing, but I don't think that's a terribly effective way to teach how to play. I think it's better to learn by doing, so a lot of my questions and prompts to the other players are intended to get them to do things that I think will help them learn about the game. Also, by getting them involved and playing, that helps me form reads on them at the same time.
So, yeah, I'm a bit more "hands off" when I IC as opposed to playing in a non-BM game.
Since you haven't done so already, do give me your reads on all of the players in the game so far, Flying Dice.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 01, 2013, 12:19:13 pm
OK, what the hell. This is a fucking bandwagon right here, for all you newbs who don't know what the definition of the word is. I'm willing to accept this as a lazy towny trying for an easy lynch, because there are only two scum. But really, REASONS, ASSHOLE.Alrighty. In case you didn't know, bandwagoning can be a tactic. When people are put under pressure of a very possible lynch, they can say things that they really shouldn't say. This is the sort of stuff I was looking for here. borno, you did seem to get pretty worked up by it (I understand you're moving house :P) and have done some backtracking since. If you want some reasons, I would talk about the wealth of RVS questions you were asking, some really quite contrived, and say that you were trying to make it appear you were active and scum hunting while switching targets too quickly to ever actually find anything out. As of right now, I'm still not sure whether you are just having newbie problems or scum problems, however.
Not acceptable. Saying "Oh, he looks like scum" isn't an acceptable reason for a vote, especially when they're already being voted by several people. Why are you voting for him?
Spaghetti
Spaghetti7: Why is it you find borno to be the scummiest one around here?Effectively the above. Even before extensions were decided, when it was getting close to the end of the day, borno kept asking RVS questions. In 2 posts he managed to ask 3 questions, 2 of which involved rather convoluted scenarios. I think that it appears pretty scummy if you are content to still be asking those sorts of questions so close to somebody getting lynched without making any serious judgments.
(@Borno: Technically, he has a reason for voting you -- you're the "actual scummy looking one around here". But he needs to explain why that is)
[This whole dialogue feels like it's giving off miscommunication vibes to me.]Me too. That question has just become a rather large, pointless discussion of nothing. Do you agree, IronyOwl?
Post by: Teneb on March 01, 2013, 05:16:56 pm
Votecount later
Post by: Captain Ford on March 01, 2013, 05:17:41 pm
Captain Ford: What's your case on borno again? Are you thinking he's scum, or trying to ask him to the prom? Because all I'm seeing you do lately in regards to him is act like you want to hold his hand and stare into his eyes.Mostly general strangeness: The stuff he's chosen to investigate, the way he's investigated it and some of the ways he's worded things are odd. My original suspicions were unfounded, but I did notice some incongruities I want to probe him about. He's answered some of them but not all of them.
Hmm...maybe I have been a little too overtly nice to him. I was aiming for gunboat diplomacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GunboatDiplomacy), and I believe it works from his perspective.
When he posted his tirade, I immediately recognized the mistake he'd made, and I knew how he was going to react when I pointed it out. If I'd played that to it's full potential, he'd have been a lot more embarrassed about it, and quite possibly may never have come back to play again (if somebody did that to me, I would have left and never looked back). I know I've embarrassed myself numerous times on this subforum, but nobody's ever condemned me for it. If people hadn't been so patient and forgiving with me, I wouldn't still be here. I'm just doing the same for him.
In any case, I believe I was pretty clear with him that I haven't taken the pressure off, only reduced it to the level I'd originally intended.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 01, 2013, 06:04:47 pm
Okay, in no particular order:
IronyOwl: Mostly null at the moment. He's not been incredibly active, but IIRC at the start of the game he said he wouldn't be able to. Hasn't applied any significant pressure, but also hasn't given off any scum vibes that I've noticed. If he keeps up his current posting pattern for the next day or two I'll probably examine him more closely to see if he's trying to pull off a subtle active lurk.
Shakerag: Nothing incredibly telling, as above, but from what I remember of my past BM experiences you were very difficult to read. I am, however, concerned that your answer to my question was not in IC speak. That's somewhat suspicious to me, as while it undoubtedly has a grain of truth in it (you wouldn't IC if you didn't want to teach people how to play), you could also be using that as a cover to make it look like you're more active in the game than you actually are. The non-IC substance of your posts has been somewhat sparse, which makes it difficult to get a read on you. Why did you not feel it was necessary to post what was nominally a very IC-texty answer in IC text?
Captain Ford: He's been posting very long walls of text, which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely, but what I did read was far from concise. Not incredibly scummy, but worth keeping an eye on. Oversaturation of data is one potential way for scum to appear active without saying too much of substance. I'm also curious as to why he felt it necessary to post what he himself described as "personal notes" despite the fact that he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up. He then claims to have posted them because they would be educational, despite apparently being completely insignificant. It feels like a very passive way of throwing guilt around, which is not town behavior. Actually, why did you post those notes, Captain? The real reason, please.
((As an aside, I think of Nadaka every time I read one of your posts. It's the avatar. :x))
borno: Somewhat scummy, though he acted the same way in the last BM we played together, and he flipped town there as well despite looking like complete scum. Maybe I'm relying too much on metaknowledge, but I'm reluctant to read his flailing as guilt without further evidence. If he keeps it up, though, I might pursue him just on the off chance that he is scum and not just town that is trying too hard to act town.
Spaghetti: He's said and done some things that read as quite scummy to me. The first, obviously, is jumping on a vote which already had two people without giving any reason. That answer he gave in the post I responded to in 231 also felt very off.
Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.
That's what I mean. He's saying that he would deliberately accumulate a case on someone who looks vulnerable, and then sit on it until he's in danger of being lynched. In other words, he would only reveal his case against that person in order to defend himself. That's about as scummy as you can get, IMO. There's no concern for catching scum, only for preserving his own skin. That says to me that he was approaching this from the mindset of a mafioso, which strongly suggests that he is in fact scum, as he is answering questions from a scum perspective without being prompted to do so.
Also note that he ignored that part of my post completely, only responding to your own IC comment, using it as a lifeline and an attempt to dismiss his slipup entirely. He then goes with an appeal to authority, asking Irony (who just so happens to be the other IC) if he agrees that it's pointless and should be swept under the rug.
Furthermore:
Alrighty. In case you didn't know, bandwagoning can be a tactic. When people are put under pressure of a very possible lynch, they can say things that they really shouldn't say. This is the sort of stuff I was looking for here. borno, you did seem to get pretty worked up by it (I understand you're moving house :P) and have done some backtracking since. If you want some reasons, I would talk about the wealth of RVS questions you were asking, some really quite contrived, and say that you were trying to make it appear you were active and scum hunting while switching targets too quickly to ever actually find anything out. As of right now, I'm still not sure whether you are just having newbie problems or scum problems, however.
Note that he doesn't say who bandwagoning is a tactic for. It's a scumtell for a reason. He just admitted to bandwagoning borno. That's by far the scummiest thing anyone has said in this game. Granted, borno's not exactly clean, but Spaghetti is positively filthy by comparison.
Let me repeat that: He admitted to bandwagoning someone! Supposedly as an attempt to pressure the target into revealing something, but that's a load of crap. If a player is already in a situation where they're in danger of being lynched, an additional pressure vote is unlikely to shake anything loose. This is one of the most half-arsed coverups of blatant scum behavior that I've seen, either in my own BM experience or in others that I've read.
Soldier and Nerjin both felt faintly town to me, but I'm not going to put too much stock into analyzing their RVS/early D1 posts as they're going to be replaced, and I don't want to work on one person with someone else's behavioral pattern as a guide.
Emphasis in quotes is mine.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 01, 2013, 06:07:51 pm
Post by: Shakerag on March 01, 2013, 06:28:50 pm
Why did you not feel it was necessary to post what was nominally a very IC-texty answer in IC text?Because you were asking a question to me, as a player, about my playstyle this game. Ergo, it made sense to reply as a player, and not in my IC voice.
[And with that, I'm out for the weekend all. Barring something unusual. See you on Monday.]
Post by: Flying Dice on March 01, 2013, 06:35:01 pm
Why did you not feel it was necessary to post what was nominally a very IC-texty answer in IC text?Because you were asking a question to me, as a player, about my playstyle this game. Ergo, it made sense to reply as a player, and not in my IC voice.
[And with that, I'm out for the weekend all. Barring something unusual. See you on Monday.]
Fair enough.
Eesh. I really don't have time now, but I'll get to that WoT in the morning. Thanks, Flying Dice. :P
Always glad to give people something to do. :P
Post by: borno on March 01, 2013, 09:19:45 pm
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 02, 2013, 07:54:01 am
Hold on. If you manage to get a good case on someone it will generally be known to others in the game that that person looks quite scummy. This could lead to them being lynched and all the rest. I assumed this would be obvious. Only if they weren't, and I was in a tight spot, would I try to use this to ward off the attackers. Show up someone who is more scummy than me.Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.
That's what I mean. He's saying that he would deliberately accumulate a case on someone who looks vulnerable, and then sit on it until he's in danger of being lynched. In other words, he would only reveal his case against that person in order to defend himself. That's about as scummy as you can get, IMO. There's no concern for catching scum, only for preserving his own skin. That says to me that he was approaching this from the mindset of a mafioso, which strongly suggests that he is in fact scum, as he is answering questions from a scum perspective without being prompted to do so.
Also note that he ignored that part of my post completely, only responding to your own IC comment, using it as a lifeline and an attempt to dismiss his slipup entirely. He then goes with an appeal to authority, asking Irony (who just so happens to be the other IC) if he agrees that it's pointless and should be swept under the rug.I felt that I had already answered the question about WHY I voted borno in a previous answer, and didn't think it necessary to copy and paste my reply again. And regarding my question to IronyOwl, it wasn't an appeal for someone with authority to agree that it was pointless. I asked the person whose question I felt had just led to a whole mess of answers for general mafia, if he was okay with agreeing it was getting stupid. We were just arguing over an RVS question from pages ago and generally getting nowhere.
Furthermore:I agree, that bandwagoning is scummy. And I agree that it's generally a scum tactic, to try to get someone lynched without any effort required. However, and I quote from MafiaWiki:Alrighty. In case you didn't know, bandwagoning can be a tactic. When people are put under pressure of a very possible lynch, they can say things that they really shouldn't say. This is the sort of stuff I was looking for here. borno, you did seem to get pretty worked up by it (I understand you're moving house :P) and have done some backtracking since. If you want some reasons, I would talk about the wealth of RVS questions you were asking, some really quite contrived, and say that you were trying to make it appear you were active and scum hunting while switching targets too quickly to ever actually find anything out. As of right now, I'm still not sure whether you are just having newbie problems or scum problems, however.
Note that he doesn't say who bandwagoning is a tactic for. It's a scumtell for a reason. He just admitted to bandwagoning borno. That's by far the scummiest thing anyone has said in this game. Granted, borno's not exactly clean, but Spaghetti is positively filthy by comparison.
Quote
The goal of a bandwagon is to either lynch a player or force them to roleclaim via the pressure of the possibility of getting lynched. Because players may react differently under pressure, some players consider bandwagons to be a vital part of "reading" players.it can also be a tactic for town, to try to get a better read on someone. If I went in so rashly and without reason, borno could be put under enough pressure to crack. I then gave reasons afterwards, despite him having shown a fair few scumtells along the way.
He admitted to bandwagoning someone! Supposedly as an attempt to pressure the target into revealing something, but that's a load of crap.Did you see borno's post afterwards? I think his anger showed that it got at a nerve, certainly.
Post by: Dariush on March 02, 2013, 08:54:49 am
Post by: Flying Dice on March 02, 2013, 02:15:16 pm
Did you see borno's post afterwards? I think his anger showed that it got at a nerve, certainly.Again, this may be relying a bit too much on metaknowledge, but panic and anger from him is something of a null tell IMO, as he's acted the exact same way before when pressured in prior games, both as town and as scum. I'm going to need to see more than that before I believe that he's not just flailing town being bandwagoned by scum.
borno: Why are you panicking? If you're town, you've got more important things to worry about. For that matter, Captain Ford's posts freaked you out a lot as well. You're actually starting to look suspicious, and this coming from someone who's seen you flailing nearly this badly as town before.
Your past few posts have all consisted of apologies over your freakout and off-topic conversation. If you have the time to post, why weren't you questioning anyone? Hell, even the time it takes to post "I don't really feel like posting at the moment." could be used to ask a simple question or two. Damn it, I can't help but this is going to repeat past events, but you're acting too scummy to leave alone borno. Not as scummy as the read I'm getting from Spaghetti, though. Yet.
The title of this thread reads like a badly spelled assassination advertisement.Little known secret: Deathsword got the title for this BM from Craigslist.
Incidentally, I have just discovered that from March 16th to March 23rd I will be in a locale with no internet access. I had formerly been informed that this was not the case, or I would not have signed up as a replacement. That's five weekdays I'll be gone; I'd prefer not to be replaced, but if you all aren't okay with just extending over that or playing the day without me, I'll bow out once the time comes.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 02, 2013, 10:01:30 pm
Captain Ford: He's been posting very long walls of text, which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely, but what I did read was far from concise. Not incredibly scummy, but worth keeping an eye on. Oversaturation of data is one potential way for scum to appear active without saying too much of substance. I'm also curious as to why he felt it necessary to post what he himself described as "personal notes" despite the fact that he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up. He then claims to have posted them because they would be educational, despite apparently being completely insignificant. It feels like a very passive way of throwing guilt around, which is not town behavior. Actually, why did you post those notes, Captain? The real reason, please.Reasons, not reason. Why do people always assume people only have one reason for the things they do?
1. First of all, as I stated when I posted them, I wanted superBlast to see them. I didn't see a reason to keep it hidden from everyone else, either.
2. I put a crapload of effort into them, and didn't want to let it go to waste.
3. The Soldier asked me if I could explain why superBlast did the things he did. That was a rough draft of an answer.
4. I was curious how people would react to it.
5. A number of newbies were expressing difficulty understanding how to scumhunt. I thought it might give them some insight on how to compile reads on people. (You don't have to keep long notes, by the way. I'm just particularly verbose)
6. I couldn't think of a good reason not to post them. In retrospect, it was very heavy-handed for a BM, and I wouldn't do it again.
7. I was tired and had a headache from staring at my computer screen for so long. In those situations, I have a tendency to say, "screw it. Post it. Figure the rest out later" just like every other member of the human race.
I didn't intend for my notes to have a strong impact on the game. It was more of a "here this is. If you want to talk about it, I will, but if you don't, it's no big deal." Which is why I handled borno the way I did.
Anyways, let me address some of that stuff you just said:
"He then claims..."
I said right when I posted it that I wanted superBlast to read it. Don't you dare try to tell me it wasn't good for him.
"...he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up"
Blatant lie. I have said multiple times that I believed they were worth posting. I even said I have a PM from a player who thanked me profusely for posting them.
"...insignificant"
Where did you get that from? I never said they were inconsequential, just that I didn't expect anyone to read them (as confirmed almost immediately by Shakerag). I mean, they're notes. I fully expect to be fielding questions based on them for a good while, as I am now, but it's not like you haven't read the stuff they're based on already.
"...which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely"
Uh huh. Case in point.
"Oversaturation of data"
I have a bit of a reputation for being verbose. I include things that are supplemental -- showing my work, so to speak -- but always in spoilers, and always clearly marked so I don't waste people's time. If they want to verify my reasoning, they can. It's optional content, for people who have more time and interest.
"appear active without saying too much of substance"
So you're saying that, if you take out the post with my personal notes in it, it looks like I'm lurking?
And aren't you doing much the same thing?
((As an aside, I think of Nadaka every time I read one of your posts. It's the avatar. :x))(Oh yeah, I spotted him earlier. Has he had that avatar long?)
Regarding your read on spaghetti: did you see the original question? The behavior he described is scummy, yes, but it is an accurate answer to the question he was asked.
The metainfo is actually quite helpful, and I agree with ...Did you see borno's post afterwards? I think his anger showed that it got at a nerve, certainly.Again, this may be relying a bit too much on metaknowledge, but panic and anger from him is something of a null tell IMO, as he's acted the exact same way before when pressured in prior games, both as town and as scum. I'm going to need to see more than that before I believe that he's not just flailing town being bandwagoned by scum.
being bandwagoned by scum....
You sure are judgy, aren't you?
borno: Why are you panicking? If you're town, you've got more important things to worry about. For that matter, Captain Ford's posts freaked you out a lot as well. You're actually starting to look suspicious, and this coming from someone who's seen you flailing nearly this badly as town before.He's posted twice. Once apologetic, and the second time to say he wasn't going to post on the weekend.
Your past few posts have all consisted of apologies over your freakout and off-topic conversation. If you have the time to post, why weren't you questioning anyone? Hell, even the time it takes to post "I don't really feel like posting at the moment." could be used to ask a simple question or two. Damn it, I can't help but this is going to repeat past events, but you're acting too scummy to leave alone borno.
Why are you so quick to cast suspicion around, FlyingDice?
And since I'm here, can you explain Remuthra's actions?
Post by: borno on March 02, 2013, 11:03:45 pm
I understand how I reacted was uncalled for, and was probably a fatal mistake. I just really, really didn't want to have to put up with it at the time. And about the RVS questions, I've already answered about that. I thought that, since there was a new replacement in the game, that it would be acceptable to ask an RVS question to him. Apparently not.OK, what the hell. This is a fucking bandwagon right here, for all you newbs who don't know what the definition of the word is. I'm willing to accept this as a lazy towny trying for an easy lynch, because there are only two scum. But really, REASONS, ASSHOLE.Alrighty. In case you didn't know, bandwagoning can be a tactic. When people are put under pressure of a very possible lynch, they can say things that they really shouldn't say. This is the sort of stuff I was looking for here. borno, you did seem to get pretty worked up by it (I understand you're moving house :P) and have done some backtracking since. If you want some reasons, I would talk about the wealth of RVS questions you were asking, some really quite contrived, and say that you were trying to make it appear you were active and scum hunting while switching targets too quickly to ever actually find anything out. As of right now, I'm still not sure whether you are just having newbie problems or scum problems, however.
[/quote]
Care to explain your reasoning here, borno? That makes no sense, as far as I can tell.borno: Why are you panicking? If you're town, you've got more important things to worry about. For that matter, Captain Ford's posts freaked you out a lot as well. You're actually starting to look suspicious, and this coming from someone who's seen you flailing nearly this badly as town before.Because I'm town. If town gets lynched, then it damages the other town, and makes the townie in question unable to scum hunt.
Yes, I made a huge mistake with my over-the-top reaction. I know I'm going to get lynched for it, looking back. As I've said before, I was in a bad mood, and it was made worse when I saw all the posts against me. I completely mis-interpreted Captain Ford's post, and all the other posts after it.I see this as role fishing because I was more focussed on scum-hunting than staying alive, and the question was what would you do as doctor. If I had answered scum-hunting, then the scum would probably know if I were a doctor.Do tell how this is rolefishing, borno.@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?That's a tough one, but I think that lasting as long as possible would be the best idea, since then you have more chance to help people live...
Actually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?
[/quote]
I fell into a fallacy. I was thinking along the lines of
Quote from: My Head
The doctor tries to stay alive.which is a bad assumption to make.
He tries to stay alive too.
Therefore, he must be the Doctor.
OK, full explanation time. I am an average towny. I am trying to stay alive, because If I die, I cannot assist the other townies in scum hunting, and the scum are one step closer to victory. I overreacted because I was tired, although there probably is no excuse. I'll Unvote Ford, because he seems to be town IMO. I apologise for the half-hearted post, I'm not really feeling it right now. I was thinking about calling a replacement, but that would be unfair to the mod, since there are already two people on replacement row.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 03, 2013, 01:20:29 am
I apologise for the half-hearted post, I'm not really feeling it right now.Ah, now, see. This is what I was worried about. When you're filled with righteous anger, and the floor's just yanked out from under your argument -- it really sucks it out of you. (I'm going through a bout of burnout myself right now, to be honest. Makes me glad my games are running slow right now, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to keep up)
I think that's enough touchy-feely. Time to kick your ass back into gear.
I thought that, since there was a new replacement in the game, that it would be acceptable to ask an RVS question to him. Apparently not.You are doing the same damn thing that superBlast did. You're backpedaling way too far.
Because I'm town. If town gets lynched, then it damages the other town, and makes the townie in question unable to scum hunt.Where the crap did you get that idea from? It's nearly impossible to get a lynch in this game without at least one or two townies on the lynch, and on day 1, unless one of the scum was close to getting lynched, there's no need for any scum to be involved.
What I'm getting that, is that whenever a townie is lynched, at least some of the people who lynched him were wrong. And when a scum is lynched, every townie that didn't vote for him was wrong. Townies are always going to be wrong most of the time. It's just the nature of this game. If you let people get away with hamstringing you because you lynched a townie, that's your fault. As long as you had good reasons, your fellow townies won't see you as any worse off because of it. And if you get lynched, and some of your fellow townies had bad reasons for lynching you, well, that's their fault, not yours.
Yes, I made a huge mistake with my over-the-top reaction. I know I'm going to get lynched for it, looking back.Okay, I'm going to be very clear with you here.
No, you didn't. And no, you won't.
Your mistake was misreading my post. But your reaction to what you thought you saw was perfect. If it weren't for the fact that you made a ton of mistakes in your case, it would have been an excellent example of how to scumhunt (the Dariush way, I suppose).
If you're going to get lynched, it's because you're being mopey and telling us over and over again that you deserve to get lynched. If you're a townie, then start kicking some scummy ass!
REASONS, ASSHOLE.Now this is the borno I want to see more of.
Post by: Teneb on March 03, 2013, 04:47:19 pm
Sorry for lack of votecounts, I've been busy.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 04, 2013, 06:20:51 pm
"He then claims..."superBlast wasn't the one who was most affected in the context of the game, not by a long shot. You and I both know that wasn't what I was referring to. You posted a load of information that happened to be laden with sideways accusations when you could just have easily PMed it, then claimed that nobody needed to read it. That's a passive way to go about building a case, and looks sneaky as hell. The notes on borno are the ones relevant to the game as it stands, and you're purposely ignoring them while going on about how you just wanted to be helpful to super. Great. Super. I don't care.
I said right when I posted it that I wanted superBlast to read it. Don't you dare try to tell me it wasn't good for him.
"...he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up"
Blatant lie. I have said multiple times that I believed they were worth posting. I even said I have a PM from a player who thanked me profusely for posting them.
Allow me to make a rebuttal:
PPE: Goddamnit, Ford. [P.P.S. You just set yourself up to get lynched, assuming last votecount is correct.]What? Dammit. I misread the votecount. I thought superBlast only had one vote from Nerjin.
Well, I'm not going to tie the vote back up. So Extension.I really, really hope not. Like I said, it's for superBlast mostly. It's also for me to refer back to....and that took me about three hours. But it was productive.I hope you feel so, because I'm not reading that wall of text.
If I'd known superBlast was on death row, I probably wouldn't have put in as much effort. But I did what I had to do to get a good grip on the game in a short timespan.
So in other words, they weren't worth posting in the context of the game, they were worth posting in the context of you helping super. And yet somehow they were posted in the game thread, despite their value being only for superBlast's enlightenment and your own back-referencing. That equates to them supposedly not being worth talking about in public view. You're contradicting yourself here.
"...insignificant"See above. If your suspicions aren't worth talking about, they're insignificant. You made statements to the effect that they weren't useful for the game, yet posted them anyways. Again, you're being contradictory.
Where did you get that from? I never said they were inconsequential, just that I didn't expect anyone to read them (as confirmed almost immediately by Shakerag). I mean, they're notes. I fully expect to be fielding questions based on them for a good while, as I am now, but it's not like you haven't read the stuff they're based on already.
"...which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely"Except not at all. I skimmed it, noticed that it was a list of summaries with a bit of superficial analysis, and didn't bother wasting my time carefully reading and re-reading each entry. WoTs are fine, but unless they have some sort of real insight I don't really care.
Uh huh. Case in point.
"Oversaturation of data"There's no optional content in Mafia. There's useful data, insights, and analyses, and there's junk not worth posting. If you posted it, you obviously think it was worth mentioning, and yet you keep saying that it isn't necessary for us to read it. That's massively contradictory, and comes off very poorly on my proverbial sneak-o-meter.
I have a bit of a reputation for being verbose. I include things that are supplemental -- showing my work, so to speak -- but always in spoilers, and always clearly marked so I don't waste people's time. If they want to verify my reasoning, they can. It's optional content, for people who have more time and interest.
"appear active without saying too much of substance"In the context of those notes? Yes. Hells yes. It's incredibly easy to throw together a post summarizing either someone's behavior or another player's case and leave it at that. I'm not saying that's all you've done, but you did dabble in it.
So you're saying that, if you take out the post with my personal notes in it, it looks like I'm lurking?
And aren't you doing much the same thing?Heh, no. I won't patronize you by calling that a nice try. I attempt to avoid posting irrelevancies, and when I do post I endeavor to fully address both anything posted towards me and any concerns or suspicions I may have at the time, as well as anything of tangental importance to the game (like, say, being away from internet connectivity).
((As long as I can remember.))((As an aside, I think of Nadaka every time I read one of your posts. It's the avatar. :x))(Oh yeah, I spotted him earlier. Has he had that avatar long?)
Regarding your read on spaghetti: did you see the original question? The behavior he described is scummy, yes, but it is an accurate answer to the question he was asked.
I want you to read this very carefully.
But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?I would deflect it to other people. Build up a good case against someone else, and push it hard if votes started falling on my head. If that failed, then I would push against those leading the bandwagon against me and try to expose them while they're weak on the offence. Try to reveal them to the people following for the wagon.
That's scummy as hell, and the original context of the question set him as town. If you're saving cases on other people to use to divert attention from yourself, that's scum behavior, regardless of whether he was supposed to be speaking as town or scum. That he responded like scum says to me that he is thinking in a scum mindset, and therefore is quite possibly scum. Also note that the original question was on how he would prevent scum from targeting him while he was town. So not only does he respond like scum, but as if the scum would be distracted from an easy mislynch of one townie by a slightly more difficult mislynch of another.
In other words, he was asked to think as town defending himself from scum. His response was of scum trying to defend himself from town. That's about as scummy a tell as I've ever seen sprout from a RVS question.
You sure are judgy, aren't you?S'the name of the game. I can't trust any of you, so what's the point of pretending that I can? If I see something suspicious, I'm going to either shout it to the heavens and hope other town pick up on it, or I'm going to keep silent long enough to see if I can bait the person into showing more of their hand.
borno: Why are you panicking? If you're town, you've got more important things to worry about. For that matter, Captain Ford's posts freaked you out a lot as well. You're actually starting to look suspicious, and this coming from someone who's seen you flailing nearly this badly as town before.He's posted twice. Once apologetic, and the second time to say he wasn't going to post on the weekend.
Your past few posts have all consisted of apologies over your freakout and off-topic conversation. If you have the time to post, why weren't you questioning anyone? Hell, even the time it takes to post "I don't really feel like posting at the moment." could be used to ask a simple question or two. Damn it, I can't help but this is going to repeat past events, but you're acting too scummy to leave alone borno.
Why are you so quick to cast suspicion around, FlyingDice?
At the time of this posting, borno has posted four times in the past 6 days. He's evidently been on, and long enough to read things over, yet none of those posts have consisted of any real content. I'm not a cold-hearted bastard (well, I am, but let's leave that aside); I understand that there are times where you don't feel like posting, etc. But seriously, he's been active enough to apologize and unvote you, but not enough to scumhunt. When I'm not in the mood to play Mafia, I don't visit the thread. His behavior looks like an active lurk to me, and I call what I see.
See my previous response. Incidentally, voting me just after I drew attention to your shenanigans, and voting me because I call people on suspicious behavior? No, not scummy at all, Captain Ford. You're second on my list right now.
And since I'm here, can you explain Remuthra's actions?He was a flailing newbie. That's about all I can figure, though I certainly don't blame anyone for being suspicious of him. If I had been one of the starters, I would have been tempted to policy-lynch him and hope that he was scum rather than just town who couldn't stay cool and on track under pressure. But I'm not going to attempt to dig apart what his train of thought might have been, any more than I'd ask any other replacement to do so for their own metaphorical albatross.
borno: ((Don't stress it for now, but if you honestly can't muster the energy to continue, please do sub out. It's no fun to be stuck in a Mafia game when you really don't want to play it, and it's not much fun being in an inactive one, either. Chin up. :) ))
You're not going to be lynched if you stop flailing and acting scummy. Probably. As I recall, you gave up in the exact same way the last time we played together. Don't do that. The worst thing a townie can do is give up and accept their death as inevitable. Even if you are lynched at the end of the day, better to have revealed new information than started going all "woe is me". For that matter, don't apologize for being an aggressive asshole. It's one of the better ways to get responses.
--
So. Reading back over that conversation during RVS just confirmed my suspicions of Spaghetti even more. He's thinking like scum and acting like scum, and at D1 that's about the best I can hope for in my vote.
Silver: Care to give us your own little list of suspicions, once you've had a chance to read over the thread?
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 12:05:25 am
Captain Ford:No, no I didn't. You didn't bother to clarify, and I'm not psychic."He then claims..."superBlast wasn't the one who was most affected in the context of the game, not by a long shot. You and I both know that wasn't what I was referring to.
I said right when I posted it that I wanted superBlast to read it. Don't you dare try to tell me it wasn't good for him.
You posted a load of information that happened to be laden with sideways accusations when you could just have easily PMed it, then claimed that nobody needed to read it. That's a passive way to go about building a case, and looks sneaky as hell. The notes on borno are the ones relevant to the game as it stands, and you're purposely ignoring them while going on about how you just wanted to be helpful to super. Great. Super. I don't care.Sorry? How am I ignoring them? I've used them in pressing borno, and responded to the issues he brought up. You haven't actually said anything specific about them, just kind of vaguely handwaved in their direction.
"claimed that nobody needed to read it" - Shut up. Seriously. I have never said that. You're going to make your own decision no matter what I think. I just don't care whether or not you've read them.
Spoiler: Rebuttal (click to show/hide)
"despite their value being only for superBlast's enlightenment and your own back-referencing" - I didn't say that. I said "mostly". You really like to twist people's words, don't you?
Taking those notes took effort. If I was going to be eliminated from the game in short order, then it wouldn't make sense from a player's standpoint to get too invested in the game. If anything, it proves that the notes have value because they had a cost that I chose to pay.
Uh huh. Case in point."...which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely"Except not at all. I skimmed it, noticed that it was a list of summaries with a bit of superficial analysis, and didn't bother wasting my time carefully reading and re-reading each entry. WoTs are fine, but unless they have some sort of real insight I don't really care.
Uh huh. Case in point.
I completely disagree. There are definitely times when I've skimmed or skipped over things that other players have linked to, spoilered or referenced. The only difference between a link to a wiki and a spoilered dissertation on theory (or an analysis of voting patterns, or notes on happenings in the game) is that one is in the thread, and one isn't."Oversaturation of data"There's no optional content in Mafia. There's useful data, insights, and analyses, and there's junk not worth posting. If you posted it, you obviously think it was worth mentioning, and yet you keep saying that it isn't necessary for us to read it. That's massively contradictory, and comes off very poorly on my proverbial sneak-o-meter.
I have a bit of a reputation for being verbose. I include things that are supplemental -- showing my work, so to speak -- but always in spoilers, and always clearly marked so I don't waste people's time. If they want to verify my reasoning, they can. It's optional content, for people who have more time and interest.
I've gotten the "I'm not going to read that" response about a dozen times from other players. I have basic pattern recognition. I believe it's valuable, but I was also right that people were going to skip over it. I can't control that.
If you want to pull something out of it and question me about it, go right ahead. But don't call me scummy for something you haven't even bothered to read.
..."appear active without saying too much of substance"In the context of those notes? Yes. Hells yes. It's incredibly easy to throw together a post summarizing either someone's behavior or another player's case and leave it at that. I'm not saying that's all you've done, but you did dabble in it.
So you're saying that, if you take out the post with my personal notes in it, it looks like I'm lurking?
Bullshit. You're calling me out for lurking when we have NQT who hasn't posted in six days, when we have ICs that have posted less than a sixth as often as the newbies, and when I'm spending most of my time waiting for the rest of you to post.
Aha. No.And aren't you doing much the same thing?Heh, no. I won't patronize you by calling that a nice try. I attempt to avoid posting irrelevancies, and when I do post I endeavor to fully address both anything posted towards me and any concerns or suspicions I may have at the time, as well as anything of tangental importance to the game (like, say, being away from internet connectivity).
You are casting FoSes and votes without asking questions. Posting a lot of info but doing no investigation. You are doing the same thing.
Regarding Spaghetti: The question assumed he had a good reason to try to stay alive as a townie. I don't expect a newbie to realize such a situation doesn't exist in a BM. And we get some hypothetical questions about situations that don't come up in BMs. He dropped the ball on not pointing out the flaws in the question, but I'm not punishing him for an accurate answer.
At the time of this posting, borno has posted four times in the past 6 days. He's evidently been on, and long enough to read things over, yet none of those posts have consisted of any real content. I'm not a cold-hearted bastard (well, I am, but let's leave that aside); I understand that there are times where you don't feel like posting, etc. But seriously, he's been active enough to apologize and unvote you, but not enough to scumhunt. When I'm not in the mood to play Mafia, I don't visit the thread. His behavior looks like an active lurk to me, and I call what I see.I certainly hope that you at least feel some responsibility to be active in a game if you've joined it.
See my previous response. Incidentally, voting me just after I drew attention to your shenanigans, and voting me because I call people on suspicious behavior? No, not scummy at all, Captain Ford. You're second on my list right now.And you're first on mine. You're experienced enough to know the adage about asking questions if you're not totally sure. You haven't been asking questions with your votes. It's too early for you to be certain. But you don't need confirmation, do you, scumbag?
Lol. "Drew attention to my shenanigans" - Oh yes, like you're the first one to do that (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4063971#msg4063971). Except, wait, borno actually read what he was responding to. You haven't.
Fair enough. I guess you won't mind if my vote hangs out here for a little while longer, then.And since I'm here, can you explain Remuthra's actions?He was a flailing newbie. That's about all I can figure, though I certainly don't blame anyone for being suspicious of him. If I had been one of the starters, I would have been tempted to policy-lynch him and hope that he was scum rather than just town who couldn't stay cool and on track under pressure. But I'm not going to attempt to dig apart what his train of thought might have been, any more than I'd ask any other replacement to do so for their own metaphorical albatross.
So. Reading back over that conversation during RVS just confirmed my suspicions of Spaghetti even more. He's thinking like scum and acting like scum, and at D1 that's about the best I can hope for in my vote.Fair enough. You can't very well vote yourself, so I guess you'll have to make do with the second-scummiest target.
For clarity, I'm voting you for:
1. Remuthra's behavior, which you can't control, but reflects on you nonetheless. Simply dismissing it as "flailing newbie syndrome" reflects even more poorly on you.
2. Word-twisting and exaggeration.
3. Passing judgment but not probing for more information.
For a recent replacement, you are too satisfied with your reads, and for an experienced player you are too conservative in your approach.
Post by: Shakerag on March 05, 2013, 12:27:54 pm
Deathsword: You too. Votecount. Also, release the prods!]
[Flying Dice and Captain Ford: Okay, as an IC especially and even generally as a player, I do try to read over everything everyone posts carefully and follow along with their arguments. Having said that, if my eyes are starting to glaze over every time I read a post from either of you, I imagine a lot of the other players are as bad off or worse in trying to follow what the both of you are saying.
However, that isn't a free pass for either of you to start shitposting. I do applaud your thoroughness, but both of you need an appointment for a brevity booster shot, I think. Try to keep replies to a handful of your best points. Deconstructing someone's post line-by-line actually tends to weaken your case. You get an oversaturation of info and walls of text that people start to fail to process completely.
And, god, please, don't quote large chunks/chains of replies. If you're a good little Mafia player and keep the link data in your quotes, we can just follow that backwards if we need a refresher on the conversation. If I wanted to see great pyramids I'd go to Egypt.
So, along those lines, pick what you feel are your best points, and summarize your cases/arguments on each other.]
Unvote for now while I try to get a fresh feel on the game.
Extend as a courtesy for SilverDragon. Who should totally get in here and post something constructive.
Post by: Teneb on March 05, 2013, 02:49:55 pm
The Soldier(0):
Captain Ford(1):SilverDragon
borno(2): notquitethere,, Sphagetti7
notquitethere(0):
Sphagetti7(1):Flying Dice
Flying Dice(1):Captain Ford
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: IronyOwl, Shakerag, The Soldier (up for replacement)
1 Vote for extension. 3 needed.
DAY ENDS TODAY AT 22:00
NQT, IO and SilverDragon shall be prodded.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 05, 2013, 03:36:41 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 04:00:13 pm
Either way, I will definitely take this advice forward.
This is a cleaned-up version of my last post:
superBlast wasn't the one who was most affected in the context of the game, not by a long shot. You and I both know that wasn't what I was referring to.No, no I didn't. You didn't bother to clarify, and I'm not psychic.
You posted a load of information that happened to be laden with sideways accusations when you could just have easily PMed it, then claimed that nobody needed to read it. That's a passive way to go about building a case, and looks sneaky as hell. The notes on borno are the ones relevant to the game as it stands, and you're purposely ignoring them while going on about how you just wanted to be helpful to super. Great. Super. I don't care.Sorry? How am I ignoring them? I've used them in pressing borno, and responded to the issues he brought up. You haven't actually pointed to anything specific in their contents, just kind of vaguely handwaved in their direction.
[...]
So in other words, they weren't worth posting in the context of the game, they were worth posting in the context of you helping super. And yet somehow they were posted in the game thread, despite their value being only for superBlast's enlightenment and your own back-referencing. That equates to them supposedly not being worth talking about in public view. You're contradicting yourself here.
[...]
There's no optional content in Mafia. There's useful data, insights, and analyses, and there's junk not worth posting. If you posted it, you obviously think it was worth mentioning, and yet you keep saying that it isn't necessary for us to read it. That's massively contradictory, and comes off very poorly on my proverbial sneak-o-meter.
Let me clear about what I said, since you seem very confused. I have never said my notes were insignificant. I thought they were valuable. Otherwise I wouldn't have taken the time to write them. I made a decision to share them, for reasons I outlined earlier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4073300#msg4073300). I never said they didn't need to be read. That is a judgment YOU make, not me. I only ever said that I expected most people to skip over them.
There are definitely times when I've skimmed or skipped over things that other players have linked to, spoilered or referenced. The only difference between a link to a wiki and a spoilered dissertation on theory (or an analysis of voting patterns, or notes on happenings in the game) is that one is in the thread, and one isn't.
Uh huh. Case in point."...which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely"Except not at all. I skimmed it, noticed that it was a list of summaries with a bit of superficial analysis, and didn't bother wasting my time carefully reading and re-reading each entry. WoTs are fine, but unless they have some sort of real insight I don't really care.
Uh huh. Case in point.
Spoiler: Minor Points (click to show/hide)
For clarity, I'm voting you for:
1. Remuthra's behavior, which you can't control, but reflects on you nonetheless. Simply dismissing it as "flailing newbie syndrome" reflects even more poorly on you.
2. Word-twisting and exaggeration.
3. Passing judgment but not probing for more information.
For a recent replacement, you are too satisfied with your reads, and for an experienced player you are too conservative in your approach.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 06:26:42 pm
Unvote and Extension. We're having a lot of them, but I feel we really need 'em. Also, sorry, haven't got enough time to get to the questions yet.Seems like a pattern right now.
Oh, and Extend. It just occurred to me that today is the deadline.
Post by: Teneb on March 05, 2013, 07:08:10 pm
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 05, 2013, 07:13:29 pm
-reads the day number-
Holy Extensions, Batman! I haven't seen this many since that one woman of questionable repute back in Moroc─
That would definitely be enough, Robin. </horribly_thought_out_joke>
I'll try to catch up on my readings.))
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 05, 2013, 07:38:45 pm
Anyway, is it considered a scum-tell if I say I want to find out I'm replacing scum? I've wanted to say that since the last BM, but figured it would murder me brutally as a huge scum-tell if I actually said it while playing. Heh, time to let the die roll.
And probably defend the crap out of myself for this post... (For comparison, this is on the same line.)
Did I just [ sub] text so hard it went down a line? Sweeet.))
Post by: Flying Dice on March 05, 2013, 07:44:38 pm
1. Regarding your notes:
I really, really hope not. Like I said, it's for superBlast mostly. It's also for me to refer back to....and that took me about three hours. But it was productive.I hope you feel so, because I'm not reading that wall of text.
This. This is what I'm talking about. You've been obfuscating it a lot, but your actions and statements are clearly contradictory. You're even going back on what you said, trying to cover it up. Let's go over this: You said that you hoped another player didn't bother reading your notes. You said that they were mostly for superBlast, and apart from that for your own reference. I made no judgment here, I observed that your statements said one thing and your posts said another. When I called you on it, you OMGUS-voted me.
2. "Uh huh. Case in point."
If you can't make a real rebuttal, don't try to wave it off with this crap.
3. "Lurking."
I at no point claimed you were lurking. I said that certain elements of your posts were similar to active-lurking behavior, in terms of having a large amount of text for relatively little content.
4. So in other words you're voting me because I pressured you and you managed to scrape together "Remu was suspicious", "You draw attention to my mistakes", and "You haven't asked more questions to the guy who hasn't acceptably answered the first ones" as your reasons. Brilliant. Unvote. Spaghetti can wait. Captain Ford has the scent of wizard-Sicily at the moment. His perspective when answering that question was scummy, and he's been somewhat suspicious, but you've thrown far more out there.
Spoiler: Tangental (click to show/hide)
Silver: Still waiting on your list of suspicions. Or anything, really. Why haven't you been posting? I just checked, and you've been online today at the very least.
Onyx: Assuming you get subbed in, I'd like to see a list of your suspicions as well.
Irony, NQT: Wake up. Please.
Not going to vote for another extension, as we've just had one. I'm reluctant to go forward with only 3 people who are active, even if the flip would give us more material to work with. If there isn't more activity by the time the end of day starts approaching again, I suppose we'll have to extend. At this rate it'll be April before we get to D2. :x
Post by: Teneb on March 05, 2013, 07:50:43 pm
((Replacement needed? I'm interested.I'll have to send you the role tomorrow, I'm afraid. All the info regarding the game is on my desktop (using laptop, power fluctuations and a lot of ligthning.)
-reads the day number-
Holy Extensions, Batman! I haven't seen this many since that one woman of questionable repute back in Moroc─
That would definitely be enough, Robin. </horribly_thought_out_joke>
I'll try to catch up on my readings.))
Post by: notquitethere on March 05, 2013, 08:02:27 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 08:06:21 pm
...oh...OH! Okay, I see. You're referring to Shakerag specifically.I really, really hope not. Like I said, it's for superBlast mostly. It's also for me to refer back to....and that took me about three hours. But it was productive.I hope you feel so, because I'm not reading that wall of text.
This. This is what I'm talking about. You've been obfuscating it a lot, but your actions and statements are clearly contradictory. You're even going back on what you said, trying to cover it up. Let's go over this: You said that you hoped another player didn't bother reading your notes. You said that they were mostly for superBlast, and apart from that for your own reference. I made no judgment here, I observed that your statements said one thing and your posts said another. When I called you on it, you OMGUS-voted me.
Shakerag initially had very little time on his hands. What I was saying was, "I, really, really hope not. Because I'm pretty sure that would be a waste of your time, and we both know I wouldn't post something that would incriminate myself"
Looking at the LurkerTracker, he's posted a lot more than I previously thought. But at the beginning, he was barely keeping up. It's very different from my own first BM.
2. "Uh huh. Case in point."Eh...you don't get it. You're saying exactly what I said, and proving both that I was right about expecting people not to read it, and also right about why they weren't going to read it.
If you can't make a real rebuttal, don't try to wave it off with this crap.
3. "Lurking."I rebut as such:
I at no point claimed you were lurking. I said that certain elements of your posts were similar to active-lurking behavior, in terms of having a large amount of text for relatively little content.
So you're saying that, if you take out the post with my personal notes in it, it looks like I'm lurking?In the context of those notes? Yes. Hells yes.
[spoiler=Tangental]Note the first: Questions aren't always necessary. If I notice someone acting scummy and they keep doing it after I start interacting with them, that's about all one needs. Questions are for opening up new lines of conversation. You're falling into a falsehood here.Yeah, I know. I'm doing the same thing, after all.
Unvote...but who the hell else was I going to question right now? The darkness?
NQT, what are you doing. Don't you have questions to answer?
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 08:06:54 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 05, 2013, 08:19:41 pm
NQT, what are you doing. Don't you have questions to answer?No. Unless I've missed it, no one has asked me a question since I last posted.
Consider my opposition to extension for the next extension proposal, if this one has already passed. As much as endless discussion is nice, this is a game and interest can only be sustained if stuff actually happens and the real meat of the game is lynches.
Post by: Teneb on March 05, 2013, 08:28:37 pm
Onyxjew, sent you the role.
Onyxjew994 has replaced The Soldier
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 08:30:28 pm
Consider my opposition to extension for the next extension proposal, if this one has already passed. As much as endless discussion is nice, this is a game and interest can only be sustained if stuff actually happens and the real meat of the game is lynches.You are joking. You have to be. You've been gone for days, and you come in and try to hurry along the lynch almost precisely on the deadline (you posted 2 minutes after, but we both know those are quite flexible).
There have been like, 2, maybe 3 active players. Out of 9. We are still waiting for answers from borno, spaghetti, and SilverDragon.
No. Unless I've missed it, no one has asked me a question since I last posted.Give me one minute while I go hunting for you.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 08:34:00 pm
NQT:Accusing me of protecting Ford as my scum buddy is amusing (as I got that same false accusation of being Ford's scum buddy in the last game I played) but I don't see how it's founded. He did his Borno-analysis after I gave my reads./me LIES * cough*Still you didn't answer my question: "Could you tell me what you think should be the primary basis for making a proper lynch vote? (As opposed to merely a pressure vote or random-vote-stage vote)."Evidence, of course. Something you two are definitely lacking, yet nobody cares.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 08:41:27 pm
That said, I can't imagine how you could possibly explain your way out of what you just tried to pull.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 05, 2013, 08:51:26 pm
IronyOwl: You're having quite the heart-to-heart with Spaghetti7 over there. Come to anything conclusive yet?At the time of you asking me this, no. Well, sort of yes; I assumed he was going to say he misread it as "If you were scum" or similar and that'd be that.
As it stands, the answer he did give is much more interesting. I wasn't expecting it, but it seems sound, at least for a beginner; essentially, he'd prey on the weak because weak people are scum. He's either getting good Scum IC advice or has a somewhat simplistic but reasonably productive and straightforward opinion of hunting.
So, writing him off as town for now.
NQT:
IronyowlNot every single thing. Some WIFOM early on and voting Remuthra with a vague ultimatum after being pressured were bad, but he wasn't exactly a bucket of scumtells. So, probably not, but I could see standing behind his actions in general.If you were in Ford's shoes, would you stand by everything SB said? Would your decision be affected by whether or not you were scum?I've read everything superBlast said, and I'll stand by all of it.Really? That's kind of odd, then, because superBlast was voting Remuthra with intent to kill him, whereas you're not. Why the discrepancy there?
Whether I was scum or town... hrm. Arguably as scum I'd want to stand behind his Remuthra vote to give me more of an excuse to follow it, but otherwise I don't particularly think my alignment would influence that.
As much as endless discussion is nice, this is a game and interest can only be sustained if stuff actually happens and the real meat of the game is lynches.How much of your intent to lynch borno is confidence that he's scum, and how much is wanting to get the day over with?
Flying Dice:
That was a fairly early D1 sampling of votes, why did you label it as bandwagoning?That was what I remembered it as, and I hadn't gone back to confirm it like I should have.
Irony, NQT: Wake up. Please.I know, I know. I wanted to make a post yesterday but couldn't quite manage it. No particular excuse prior to that, I'm afraid.
Spaghetti:
Actually, I found it pretty informative. I'd agree that the starting premise ("How would you avoid attention as town?") was weak, however, which made the answer weird which dragged it out more than it should have. I still think it was worth it for your fascinating "Feast on the weak, they are scum" response.[This whole dialogue feels like it's giving off miscommunication vibes to me.]Me too. That question has just become a rather large, pointless discussion of nothing. Do you agree, IronyOwl?
Captain Ford:
Unvote...but who the hell else was I going to question right now? The darkness?So... what's your read on Flying Dice at the moment? Are you literally running out of people to question?
borno:
I'll Unvote Ford, because he seems to be town IMO. I apologise for the half-hearted post, I'm not really feeling it right now. I was thinking about calling a replacement, but that would be unfair to the mod, since there are already two people on replacement row.I can understand not feeling it, but at some point you have to jump back in or not.
Why do you now consider Ford to be town? What do you make of FD's case on him?
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 05, 2013, 08:55:29 pm
Magic has always been a fun topic...
Anyway, on to the business end of Day One.
All the replacements and WoT I've been poking through has gotten me a bit discombobulated. I have no idea what my previous persona has done to endear or endanger me, so I'll try to ignore that. General assumptions and views got a bit scrambled, namely because the most scummy people I saw were switched out and I can't seem to find the order of who became who.
I'll untangle this later. Time for immersion.
Active ones first, naturally.
Captain Ford What have you? I'm interested in the lay of the land, what do you see and where do you see it? </bad metaphor> What are your reads?
Notquitethere Resist. Urge. To. Make. Pun... Day Three comes sooner than expected, four Townies have gone up in smoke and you're out of leads. Everyone but one is active, there is a fight going on, and you notice one person has been on all of the lynches with weak reasoning. Who is the biggest target in your eyes?
Flying Dice Who are you gunning for right now? Explain your reasons, preferably in a list. I'm asking this for your benefit and mine, clear statements tend to be more orderly and comprehensive to everyone and they strengthen your case while filling me in a bit.
SilverDragon Where fore, art thou? We miss you, the thread just isn't the same without your jolly smile and cunning wit. *sniff* We're lost without you...
Everyone else Same question as SilverDragon. This thread needs some heat! Get in there, and start being the obnoxious nosy brats you were brought here to be!
Post by: Captain Ford on March 05, 2013, 09:41:34 pm
I have no idea what my previous persona has done to endear or endanger me, so I'll try to ignore that. General assumptions and views got a bit scrambled, namely because the most scummy people I saw were switched out and I can't seem to find the order of who became who.superBlast => Captain Ford
Nerjin => SilverDragon
Remuthra => FlyingDice
The Soldier => OnyxJew
Lord Allogon => NQT
I think that's it? Usually that's listed in the OP, but it looks like Deathsword opted to just delete the old names.
And don't worry, you're good. The Soldier was doing very well.
Captain Ford What have you? I'm interested in the lay of the land, what do you see and where do you see it? </bad metaphor> What are your reads?It's good to see you too, Onyx. I still feel like we might have gotten Tiruin had that extension passed. *sigh* But I'm over it now.
Flying Dice: Slightly scummy. But then he's the only one I've had to talk to for a while. Remuthra, whom he replaced, reminds me of ReDeadEr in terms of his pattern of short, smallish posts, active lurking and some really impressively wrong answers. But he was more active.
NQT: Heavily scummy. His laptop died, so his lurkitude is understandable. But his first post after a six-day absence is to oppose an extension in the instant before deadline? When we've got a hoard of replacements and busy people? It's not like a lynch will magically make people come back, and the timing made it a really underhanded move. (By the way, congrats on the girlfriend)
borno: Dunno. His outburst was understandable, and I saw some good scumhunting going on there. I really wish he'd post.
spaghetti7: Scummy. Scummy answers, lack of hunting, lack of understanding of hunting. Etc.
SilverDragon: Replaced Nerjin, who was doing well. Otherwise, he hasn't posted yet. He was pretty active the day he joined, so I'm surprised he hasn't at least introduced himself.
Onyxjew: Town based on The Soldier's excellent performance in the early game.
I don't have reads on the ICs because they've had their hands full cleaning up the newb juice.
Notquitethere Resist. Urge. To. Make. Pun... Day Three comes sooner than expected, four Townies have gone up in smoke and you're out of leads. Everyone but one is active, there is a fight going on, and you notice one person has been on all of the lynches with weak reasoning. Who is the biggest target in your eyes?Wow, way to give him the easy one. :o
SilverDragon Where fore, art thou? We miss you, the thread just isn't the same without your jolly smile and cunning wit. *sniff* We're lost without you......
Post by: borno on March 06, 2013, 01:44:33 am
Post by: zombie urist on March 06, 2013, 01:48:34 am
Congrats to Spaghetti7 for sticking with it for so long.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 06, 2013, 06:23:43 am
Onyxjew, are you familiar with Remuthra? The LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86473.0) may help if not. What do you make of him, and what do you make of the fact that Flying Dice is his replacement?
Ford, you missed my question.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 06, 2013, 11:00:13 am
Onyxjew, are you familiar with Remuthra? The LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86473.0) may help if not. What do you make of him, and what do you make of the fact that Flying Dice is his replacement?What I saw of Remuthra in the beginning was definingly subpar, but that could have easily been incredible amounts of pure from-concentrate newb. I don't know Flying Dice outside of this, and I haven't seen quite enough of that yet to make a definite decision, but I would say he is definitely on the list of people worth questioning.
Summary: Scummy, but not yet a lynch-vote.
What's your take on Ford? He defended Superblast's newb juice well enough, but do you have any lingering doubts or just general suspicion?
It's good to see you too, Onyx. I still feel like we might have gotten Tiruin had that extension passed. *sigh* But I'm over it now.He did make a good run of it. The doctor claim was a smart move, and it was probably the best part of his defense. I wonder how long I'll last in this one, hopefully with less 'nooby, but why would scum do that'-armor. Fun game, and glad to see you back.
SilverDragon Where fore, art thou? We miss you, the thread just isn't the same without your jolly smile and cunning wit. *sniff* We're lost without you......
Waxing poetic in a vain attempt to get a rise out of Silver through unconvential bombardment of nonsense? Dramatic Failure.
Post by: Shakerag on March 06, 2013, 12:47:01 pm
Shakerag: I totally needed to hear that. What is your opinion about using spoilers so you can address secondary points while keeping your main points clean? Does it help? Make things worse?[Well, do you feel that your "main points" make a compelling argument on their own? If so, why bother with secondary points? Sure, player A may have done 8 scummy things, but if three of them were -really- scummy and the other five were kind-of-sort-of scummy, just focus on those three strong things. It makes your case cleaner, easier for other players to follow, and prevents walls of text going back and forth over minor points.
So, no. I don't really support spoilers. If you're going to post so much text that you need to spoiler it, I propose you may be doing something wrong.]
[D1 in BMs is always ... lengthy. There's a lot to go over initially, and the ICs need a bit of time to corral you all toward effective scumhunting.]Unvote and Extension. We're having a lot of them, but I feel we really need 'em. Also, sorry, haven't got enough time to get to the questions yet.Seems like a pattern right now.
Captain Ford: Okay, let's get some clarification here. Are you or are you not pulling stuff from your text-wall-of-China to use in game?
Flying Dice: What are you voting Captain Ford for again? Because all I'm seeing is something something you're very suspicious.
[Technically he confirmed that you -looked- like you were lurking, not that you actually -were- lurking. I'd say it's just splitting hairs to go further, and I'm not really sure what it would contribute.]3. "Lurking."I rebut as such:
I at no point claimed you were lurking. I said that certain elements of your posts were similar to active-lurking behavior, in terms of having a large amount of text for relatively little content.So you're saying that, if you take out the post with my personal notes in it, it looks like I'm lurking?In the context of those notes? Yes. Hells yes.
Unvote...but who the hell else was I going to question right now? The darkness?["Darkness called… But I was on the phone, so I missed him. I tried to *69-Darkness, but his machine picked up. I yelled "Pick up the phone, Darkness!," but he ignored me. Darkness must have been screening his calls."
Sorry, I had to. But in other news ... you could make questions toward any other player, ICs included?]
Shakerag:And so ... you feel the possibility of him getting good Scum IC advice is write-off-able? I never knew you thought so poorly of Urist Imiknorris. Also, isn't it worth challenging that there could be strong scum players?IronyOwl: You're having quite the heart-to-heart with Spaghetti7 over there. Come to anything conclusive yet?At the time of you asking me this, no. Well, sort of yes; I assumed he was going to say he misread it as "If you were scum" or similar and that'd be that.
As it stands, the answer he did give is much more interesting. I wasn't expecting it, but it seems sound, at least for a beginner; essentially, he'd prey on the weak because weak people are scum. He's either getting good Scum IC advice or has a somewhat simplistic but reasonably productive and straightforward opinion of hunting.
So, writing him off as town for now.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 06, 2013, 12:48:57 pm
Spaghetti @ 245: I disagree. It's perfectly possibly to accumulate evidence on someone without posting it. Granted, someone else might pick up on the same cues, but if they don't then you're essentially holding that case in reserve until you need it to save yourself. That's the complete antithesis of town behavior.I've bolded a bit, as I would see this as a given. Generally people pick up on someone looking scummy and take any opportunity to grill them about it. That's the name of the game (not literally) and the sign of a good townie. So my answer was only if, in this hypothetical situation, no-one had picked up on these cues.
Spaghetti:Oh, I don't dispute how it could be useful to you. Anything said is useful in this game, I was just saying any future discussion was probably pointless as we were just going round in circles.Actually, I found it pretty informative. I'd agree that the starting premise ("How would you avoid attention as town?") was weak, however, which made the answer weird which dragged it out more than it should have. I still think it was worth it for your fascinating "Feast on the weak, they are scum" response.[This whole dialogue feels like it's giving off miscommunication vibes to me.]Me too. That question has just become a rather large, pointless discussion of nothing. Do you agree, IronyOwl?
Wow almost every non-IC has requested a replacement.Thanks. :P It's hard, but I'll try to at least stick it through to the first lynch. :D
Congrats to Spaghetti7 for sticking with it for so long.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 06, 2013, 05:24:26 pm
Current read? Hmm...Unvote...but who the hell else was I going to question right now? The darkness?So... what's your read on Flying Dice at the moment?
Scummy on gut feeling. But not lynchworthy.
Are you literally running out of people to question?No. But at the time, the game consisted of two players who were up for replacement, two players who hadn't answered questions yet, one player absent because his computer was in his fridge, two ICs who seem to be strapped for time, and FlyingDice who is devoting endless words to me ... well ...
Post by: Teneb on March 06, 2013, 06:24:48 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 06, 2013, 06:43:17 pm
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 06, 2013, 07:33:31 pm
What on earth is happening.No one knows, we're all just pretending until things start exploding and the Bay12 implants start to kick in.
Post by: notquitethere on March 06, 2013, 08:39:29 pm
"What foul illusions have the cabal been weaving this time!"
Ford
Do you plan on responding to this?I'll wait until the new Borno reassembles before our very eyes. But you're right, I should have responded to his pleas earlier.
/me LIES * cough*
Evidence, of course. Something you two are definitely lacking, yet nobody cares.
A question for you: besides this extension blocking debacle, what other features of my play strike you as particularly suspect?
That said, I can't imagine how you could possibly explain your way out of what you just tried to pull.Hmm... serves me right for impatiently replying to things on my phone in the early hours of the morning. I wasn't aware I was so close to the deadline, living in a different timezone to Deathsword as I do. I wouldn't advise reading impatience as a scum-tell: if you'll recall from my scum-play in the mason game, several times I let the day drag on for a whole week just to let town be mislynched. But I can see why you might think it looks suspicious, and so I apologise for inadvertently sending out false-tells that hinder proper investigation.
Irony Owl
Whether I was scum or town... hrm. Arguably as scum I'd want to stand behind his Remuthra vote to give me more of an excuse to follow it, but otherwise I don't particularly think my alignment would influence that.Should we then take this as a minor point towards suspecting Ford?
Quote
How much of your intent to lynch borno is confidence that he's scum, and how much is wanting to get the day over with?I spent several hours analysing posts when I joined this game and Borno was by far the scummiest. Of course, I may well be wrong and I hope I'm not. Of course, I want the game to move at a little quicker pace and it's fair to say I was perhaps a little too hasty.
Onyx
Notquitethere Resist. Urge. To. Make. Pun... Day Three comes sooner than expected, four Townies have gone up in smoke and you're out of leads. Everyone but one is active, there is a fight going on, and you notice one person has been on all of the lynches with weak reasoning. Who is the biggest target in your eyes?Thank you for restraining yourself, OJ. Obviously the person that has mislynched the most, with the dodgiest reasons is the person to suspect. Lurking can often be unintentional, mislynching with absolute regularity and shoddy reasons rarely is.
Do you stand by the words and deeds of The Soldier?
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 06, 2013, 09:28:52 pm
OnyxA sound and fair answer, I can live with that.Notquitethere Resist. Urge. To. Make. Pun... Day Three comes sooner than expected, four Townies have gone up in smoke and you're out of leads. Everyone but one is active, there is a fight going on, and you notice one person has been on all of the lynches with weak reasoning. Who is the biggest target in your eyes?Thank you for restraining yourself, OJ. Obviously the person that has mislynched the most, with the dodgiest reasons is the person to suspect. Lurking can often be unintentional, mislynching with absolute regularity and shoddy reasons rarely is.
Do you stand by the words and deeds of The Soldier?
As for what The Soldier has done with this coil, I see no reason to argue with any of it. It all seems to be genuine and worthwhile defenses or scum-hunting. I only performed a cursory scan, but nothing major shows up that I would bother to denounce. Soldier did a fine job, and I'll be trying hard to live up to it. Heh, writing this sounds like it's an obituary for a distant relative.
Oh, and I almost forgot. No point to pressuring a missing player...
Flying Dice, your suspicions about Ford seem to be highly based on his post concerning SuperBlast's newb juices and how he secreted them. Yeah... that metaphor is starting to get really creepy with the wrong mindset. Moving on, do you have anything that set you off beyond that? His reactions to your inquiries about that particular subject not included, if you would.
Shakerag I see good ICing, but is there anyone you are actually hunting? Are you suspicious of anyone?
IronyOwl Do you plan on making an appearance today? If not, have something to do tomorrow. You be scum. Yo scumbuddy dead. Little suspicion on you. You make a mistake. What do. </syntax suicide>
Post by: Captain Ford on March 07, 2013, 01:23:57 am
Magister NQT gazes on in horror as more faces dissolve and reform around.I'm with you there. I half feel like the game just started over. The other half feels like it still hasn't started yet.
"What foul illusions have the cabal been weaving this time!"
I'll wait until the new Borno reassembles before our very eyes. But you're right, I should have responded to his pleas earlier.Why wait?
A question for you: besides this extension blocking debacle, what other features of my play strike you as particularly suspect?Lessee ... nearly a full week of lurking without explanation in-thread. When you do come back, you try to hasten the deadline, despite the fact that we're effectively down four players. It's one thing to be impatient. But with only five active players, the only way to get an extension at that point would be for all four others to vote for one. If we took a logical leap, and assumed one of them is your scumbuddy, who just 'happens' to miss the chance to extend ... well, hey, you get a mislynch while having made only three or four substantial posts. Nice job. You catch why this move seems so scummy now?
[...]
Hmm... serves me right for impatiently replying to things on my phone in the early hours of the morning. I wasn't aware I was so close to the deadline, living in a different timezone to Deathsword as I do. I wouldn't advise reading impatience as a scum-tell: if you'll recall from my scum-play in the mason game, several times I let the day drag on for a whole week just to let town be mislynched. But I can see why you might think it looks suspicious, and so I apologise for inadvertently sending out false-tells that hinder proper investigation.
It's passive, it's anti-town, and it's not conducive to the BM.
I spent several hours analysing posts when I joined this game and Borno was by far the scummiest. Of course, I may well be wrong and I hope I'm not. Of course, I want the game to move at a little quicker pace and it's fair to say I was perhaps a little too hasty.And yet, despite your stated regrets, you haven't removed your oppose vote.
Post by: Tiruin on March 07, 2013, 06:41:42 am
Go teams!}
Post by: Shakerag on March 07, 2013, 04:46:47 pm
D1 is my least favorite day in any game, and even more so in BMs.
notquitethere is standing out the most to me right now. He's replaced in for someone that never posted, and currently is tied for fewest posts with IronyOwl, but at least IO has a bit of an established meta for being absent (and said as much at the beginning). I concur with Captain Ford that I don't like him coming back to the game after almost a full week without posting to oppose an extend, and I look suspiciously at also continuing to keep a vote on a player that can't even respond to his accusations.
Not to mention that it even looks like he's undermining his own reasons for keeping a vote on borno in reply #215.
So, please hang, impatient scum.
[I'm sorry; I want to be posting more, but between work and RL issues it's the best I can manage for now. Most of you are doing fine-ish by now, just keep up the activity!]
Post by: notquitethere on March 07, 2013, 05:21:50 pm
Unvote.
Ford, I'll wait until Borno's replacement speaks as, looking back, a lot of my problems with Borno could be put down to posting style. Whether my concerns are ill founded will soon become apparent when the replacement turns up. I'll lift my oppose extension if all the replacements haven't had a decent say before the deadline, but we've got a fair bit of time as it is.
Flying Dice, you've got a different style to Remuthra. Remmy voted for Borno, Spaghetti and myself. From my reading of it, the vote on me was a pressure vote, the vote on Borno and the second vote on Spaghetti were made in earnest (though the first spaghetti vote was random). Which of these votes if any do you stand by?
Shakerag, I think I've already explained your concerns. I couldn't post much earlier due to technical difficulties and my playstyle is more patient when I am playing as scum. I dislike day one as well: we've got nothing solid to work with at this stage. If you lynch me and then I flip town, what information will team town have gained?
Deathsword, vote count and time check please.
Post by: Teneb on March 07, 2013, 05:31:58 pm
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 07, 2013, 05:32:22 pm
-snip-I'll assume that was intended as the answer to my question. If not, then it answered it anyway and I'm not going to badger over it. If it was, then try to mention the person asking the question by name. Might clear up this latent confusion.
Post by: Teneb on March 07, 2013, 05:44:21 pm
Onyxjew994(1):IronyOwl
Captain Ford(2):SilverDragon, Flying Dice
borno(0):
notquitethere(2):Captain Ford, Shakerag
Sphagetti7(0):
Flying Dice(1): Onyxjew994
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: Sphagetti7, notquitethere, borno (UP FOR REPLACEMENT)
0 vote for extension. 3 needed.
DAY ENDS TODAY, AT 22:00 BRT (GMT-3). THAT'S IN 02:16 HOURS.
Post by: notquitethere on March 07, 2013, 05:49:15 pm
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 07, 2013, 06:28:35 pm
Post by: Shakerag on March 07, 2013, 06:31:34 pm
[For the record, I dislike having votes from people replacing out still being counted, and I wish it was standard rules that once you replace out you automatically unvote.]
Unvote to avoid a no-lynch.
Extend
Post by: Teneb on March 07, 2013, 06:34:10 pm
SilverDragon(0):
Onyxjew994(1):IronyOwl
Captain Ford(2):SilverDragon, Flying Dice
borno(0):
notquitethere(1):Captain Ford
Sphagetti7(0):
Flying Dice(1): Onyxjew994
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: Sphagetti7, notquitethere, Shakerag, borno (UP FOR REPLACEMENT)
2 votes for extension. 3 needed.
DAY ENDS TODAY, AT 22:00 BRT (GMT-3). THAT'S IN 01:24 HOURS.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 07, 2013, 07:47:16 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 07, 2013, 07:52:15 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 07, 2013, 07:58:06 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 07, 2013, 08:05:43 pm
I am more than a little annoyed that one of the votes on me is left over from when Nerjin voted superBlast on Feb 22, which he never followed up on once I replaced in. I've addressed his reasons for voting superBlast, but there's nothing I can do about that vote until a player fills the slot. (unless the mod is willing to remove it, since it's been 10 days since Nerjin dropped out)
I need to go, but I'll hopefully be back later tonight.
Post by: Teneb on March 07, 2013, 08:09:38 pm
I guess I didn't. Good thing I got here in time.
I am more than a little annoyed that one of the votes on me is left over from when Nerjin voted superBlast on Feb 22, which he never followed up on once I replaced in. I've addressed his reasons for voting superBlast, but there's nothing I can do about that vote until a player fills the slot. (unless the mod is willing to remove it, since it's been 10 days since Nerjin dropped out)
I need to go, but I'll hopefully be back later tonight.
I'm tempted to remove it.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 07, 2013, 09:20:27 pm
Captain Ford: Okay, let's get some clarification here. Are you or are you not pulling stuff from your text-wall-of-China to use in game?I am not. I am pulling stuff from the game, to use in the game.
[Sorry, I had to. But in other news ... you could make questions toward any other player, ICs included?]But that would require effort!
But hey, why not.
Shakerag: Have you ever seen an IC get lynched by a mob of newbies on day 1? (That kind of sounds like a preschool teacher losing control of her classroom)
Irony Owl: How did it feel being a prince during Prince's Guard? How did it feel to have big burly men fighting over you? And how did it feel to be murdered at the end of it? I'm doing a study, so it's important that you answer honestly. *stares intently*
...I may be a little bit tired...
Post by: Shakerag on March 08, 2013, 11:58:43 am
Shakerag I see good ICing, but is there anyone you are actually hunting? Are you suspicious of anyone?I tend to be a bit more defensive player, so unless I have a good hook on someone, I'm often more observent and sprinkle questions around as I see opportunities, looking for something to jump on.
I'm suspicious of everyone to some degree. Largely the (constant) problem for ICs is just sifting through the newbie bumbling to look for actualy scumtells. notquitethere and Flying Dice are the ones I have my eye on the closest right now. NQT for some questionable things I just mentioned, and Flying Dice largely by nature of being Remuthra's replacement.
Shakerag, I think I've already explained your concerns. I couldn't post much earlier due to technical difficulties and my playstyle is more patient when I am playing as scum. I dislike day one as well: we've got nothing solid to work with at this stage. If you lynch me and then I flip town, what information will team town have gained?More information than team town would have gained from a no-lynch. [I will refer you back to the opening post and the section on "On D1 No-lynches".]
And commenting on your own "scum meta" is WIFOM-ish, so I'm not putting any stock there.
Yes, yes, my apologies. I was pressed for time IRL and couldn't be as thorough as I would have liked. I assumed my actions would be an indirect response to your question under the circumstances.-snip-I'll assume that was intended as the answer to my question. If not, then it answered it anyway and I'm not going to badger over it. If it was, then try to mention the person asking the question by name. Might clear up this latent confusion.
Deathsword: Spaghetti7, IronyOwl, and Flying Dice should be prodded.
Shakerag: Have you ever seen an IC get lynched by a mob of newbies on day 1? (That kind of sounds like a preschool teacher losing control of her classroom)You ... couldn't think of anything relevant to this game to ask? I think enough has been said by now that any player shouldn't have to go back to RVS-style questions.
Having said that, no, not to my awareness. Typically what happens in BMs D1 is that one of the new players says something incredibly silly, and gets dogpiled for it. Typically.
[More later; work beckons.]
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 08, 2013, 12:05:20 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 08, 2013, 02:50:58 pm
Deathsword: Thanks for removing the vote. I thought I'd included that in my last post, but apparently I forgot.
Shakerag:
You ... couldn't think of anything relevant to this game to ask? I think enough has been said by now that any player shouldn't have to go back to RVS-style questions.No, actually, I couldn't. I got home pretty exhausted last night and I asked those questions because they were on my mind.
...and I'm still drawing a blank. The flurry of replacements has pretty much wiped out every landmark I had in this game.
Although ... in going over things, this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4063731#msg4063731) by NQT jumped out at me. It's actually a very good analysis, and his reasons for suspecting borno are pretty strong. What do you make of it?
Post by: Shakerag on March 08, 2013, 03:11:13 pm
Although ... in going over things, this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4063731#msg4063731) by NQT jumped out at me. It's actually a very good analysis, and his reasons for suspecting borno are pretty strong. What do you make of it?Not much, considering NQT basically undermined his case here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4064424#msg4064424).
But to be honest, now that I've had another look at it, what seemed like a jumpy OMGUS last night, seems a little more reasonable now.
The best I can say Borno is that once I started suspecting you when I was reading through the posts, a confirmation bias might have arose meaning that all further information was given undue extra weight in light of that suspicion.
Given what I've seen of borno's playstyle before, and given his RL circumstances, I don't see much there to paint him as scum at this time.
[Back to being busy.]
Post by: Captain Ford on March 08, 2013, 04:17:02 pm
Shakerag: Ah yes, you said that before. Hmm...he did indeed undermine his case when he yielded to Borno and characterized it all as biased.
NQT: What was your intent in yielding to Borno? Why didn't you push back?
Post by: notquitethere on March 08, 2013, 06:35:54 pm
-pfp-
Post by: Captain Ford on March 08, 2013, 07:15:52 pm
In fact, maybe you should restate your case on him completely.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 08, 2013, 11:15:34 pm
--
Flying Dice Who are you gunning for right now? Explain your reasons, preferably in a list. I'm asking this for your benefit and mine, clear statements tend to be more orderly and comprehensive to everyone and they strengthen your case while filling me in a bit.
Flying Dice: What are you voting Captain Ford for again? Because all I'm seeing is something something you're very suspicious.
Flying Dice, your suspicions about Ford seem to be highly based on his post concerning SuperBlast's newb juices and how he secreted them. Yeah... that metaphor is starting to get really creepy with the wrong mindset. Moving on, do you have anything that set you off beyond that? His reactions to your inquiries about that particular subject not included, if you would.
At the moment, I'm still on Captain. The faffing about the notes was largely tangental effort to get him into a dialogue. The reason I currently suspect him is this: I pressured him (and over something without much weight to it, to boot). He turned about and started pushing me back. When I pressured him more, he voted me in what I think was a fairly clear OMGUS. To me that looks like the behavior of defensive, nervous scum trying to force someone to back off. That's my general style; I poke people with pointy sticks until I find someone who cares more about stopping me than scumhunting.
In short, I pushed him with what was essentially an excuse, and he became incredibly defensive, to the point of voting me in what I see as an effort to get me to back off.
Flying Dice, you've got a different style to Remuthra. Remmy voted for Borno, Spaghetti and myself. From my reading of it, the vote on me was a pressure vote, the vote on Borno and the second vote on Spaghetti were made in earnest (though the first spaghetti vote was random). Which of these votes if any do you stand by?I don't particularly like any of them, but I do at least think that Spaghetti was responding like scum. Borno is damned near impossible to read in my opinion because he always looks scummy, and I'm not sure if he's scummy town or scummy scum this game. I think he's dropping out, too, so I'm going to wait to see who replaces him. I haven't picked up any scum readings from you yet, but that may be just because we haven't interacted.
I think that's everyone.
--
NQT: What do you think of the interactions between borno and Captain? Why do you believe that a D1 no-lynch is a good thing for town?
Onyx: You mentioned in 286 that you thought that my suspicions of Captain were based on superBlast's... juices. Could you elaborate?
Shake: In 304 you said that you are suspicious of everyone. Granted, that is something of a given, but I would like to know you are least suspicious of.
IO: Are you voting borno because he looks like scum, or to pressure him into not giving up?
--
Again, apologies, but I've spent the past few days alternating between textual and biological upheaval. :-X
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 09, 2013, 03:09:43 am
Urr.
Flying Dice, do you stand by your predecessor's actions? Why, or why not?
borno, according to the lurker tracker you have quite an erratic vote log. Which, if any, do you stand by? (if he needs replacing feel free to ignore)
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 09, 2013, 10:57:12 am
Onyx: You mentioned in 286 that you thought that my suspicions of Captain were based on superBlast's... juices. Could you elaborate?I was referencing how Captain always calls noob-tells noob juices. Which, in turn, meant I was talking about the conversation you two had about the "Help4SuperBlast" campaign. I was reading through a few of your posts and Captain's posts and that was what appeared to be the main catalyst in your arguments.
I really need to find some time to comb for argument hooks in here... Ah, well. Time for that when I don't have deadlines hanging over me like a bloated chimpanzee on laxatives.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 09, 2013, 03:39:33 pm
Flying Dice:
In short, I pushed him with what was essentially an excuse, and he became incredibly defensive, to the point of voting me in what I see as an effort to get me to back off.I could say the same of you. I pushed back because it's what I do when people come at me with bullshit reasons. Then you pushed back, and I pushed back again, and so on...
The fact of the matter is, we were both doing the same thing, but I can tell it was scumhunting. So why can't you? Isn't that what you were doing?
Why are you trying to pretend that what you did is somehow different?
"noob juices" is now a word. It is official.Onyx: You mentioned in 286 that you thought that my suspicions of Captain were based on superBlast's... juices. Could you elaborate?I was referencing how Captain always calls noob-tells noob juices. Which, in turn, meant I was talking about the conversation you two had about the "Help4SuperBlast" campaign. I was reading through a few of your posts and Captain's posts and that was what appeared to be the main catalyst in your arguments.
Although, from now on, I may start calling them "secretions". It's more accurate.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 09, 2013, 06:46:18 pm
"noob juices" is now a word. It is official.Noob Juices slang [noob-joosez]
Although, from now on, I may start calling them "secretions". It's more accurate.
noun
1. Secretions created by a specialized gland during the nervous phase of early gaming
2. Residue of inexperienced actions
Post by: Flying Dice on March 09, 2013, 08:03:24 pm
Flying Dice:In short, I pushed him with what was essentially an excuse, and he became incredibly defensive, to the point of voting me in what I see as an effort to get me to back off.I could say the same of you. I pushed back because it's what I do when people come at me with bullshit reasons. Then you pushed back, and I pushed back again, and so on...
The fact of the matter is, we were both doing the same thing, but I can tell it was scumhunting. So why can't you? Isn't that what you were doing?
Why are you trying to pretend that what you did is somehow different?
I'm not trying to pretend; our actions were different. I neither voted you nor FoSed you. All I did was apply pressure, the source of which was irrelevant. You never claimed that my initial reason for pressuring you wasn't good until I pointed it out. In fact you did nothing but try to push my attention away from you. If you had really thought that my reasons were poor, you would have brought it up as a counterargument before I noted it, and you wouldn't have been concerned about it. At least, if you were town.
More importantly, that pressure yielded useful data, namely that you're nervous and prone to voting people who pressure you. Not town behavior.
Flying Dice, do you stand by your predecessor's actions? Why, or why not?Not particularly. He was... I honestly don't know what he was doing or thinking, and it doesn't seem very sensible to me.
--
((I wonder if there's a SCP that would fit newb juices...)
Post by: Captain Ford on March 09, 2013, 09:08:53 pm
Why is defending myself a scumtell?
Why is attacking my attacker scummy?
Where do you get that I was trying to push you away? If anything I was trying to get you to push back harder. And it worked. Bravo on not spilling your juice.
This is not my first time to a townie fight. Although you are a lot less batshit crazy than the last townie I tangoed with.
That is an impressive defense. Surely much better than my (apparently scummy) complete and thorough backing of my predecessor's actions.Flying Dice, do you stand by your predecessor's actions? Why, or why not?Not particularly. He was... I honestly don't know what he was doing or thinking, and it doesn't seem very sensible to me.
...durr...
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 10, 2013, 02:27:53 am
What doesn't seem very sensible? What was he doing wrong and what, if anything, did he do right?Flying Dice, do you stand by your predecessor's actions? Why, or why not?Not particularly. He was... I honestly don't know what he was doing or thinking, and it doesn't seem very sensible to me.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 10, 2013, 08:22:47 am
This is not my first time to a townie fight. Although you are a lot less batshit crazy than the last townie I tangoed with.Wasn't the last Townie you tangoed with actually Scum, just good at hiding it? If I'm remembering my Mild West times correctly.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 11, 2013, 04:54:30 am
Onyx:
What I saw of Remuthra in the beginning was definingly subpar, but that could have easily been incredible amounts of pure from-concentrate newb. I don't know Flying Dice outside of this, and I haven't seen quite enough of that yet to make a definite decision, but I would say he is definitely on the list of people worth questioning.Seems a bit stock and indecisive, but alright. For now.
Summary: Scummy, but not yet a lynch-vote.
What's your take on Ford? He defended Superblast's newb juice well enough, but do you have any lingering doubts or just general suspicion?I'm interested in FD's case on him, but haven't had time to go back and analyze it properly. I don't have anything of my own on him.
IronyOwl Do you plan on making an appearance today? If not, have something to do tomorrow. You be scum. Yo scumbuddy dead. Little suspicion on you. You make a mistake. What do. </syntax suicide>I'm sure we could find a planet with a generous enough day to make the answer to that yes.
Depends on the mistake, but the short answer is be confident and uncaring. Certainly admit it was a mistake if necessary, but worrying about mistakes is something scum do. Saying "Oops, oh well" or "Fuck you, that's why" is what townies who don't have time for this bullshit do.
Shakerag:
Well, some of that's just that I don't think I can usefully pressure him further over it. He's given his answer, it's an answer with some merit, I don't think I can push a better read out of him with it.Shakerag:And so ... you feel the possibility of him getting good Scum IC advice is write-off-able? I never knew you thought so poorly of Urist Imiknorris. Also, isn't it worth challenging that there could be strong scum players?IronyOwl: You're having quite the heart-to-heart with Spaghetti7 over there. Come to anything conclusive yet?At the time of you asking me this, no. Well, sort of yes; I assumed he was going to say he misread it as "If you were scum" or similar and that'd be that.
As it stands, the answer he did give is much more interesting. I wasn't expecting it, but it seems sound, at least for a beginner; essentially, he'd prey on the weak because weak people are scum. He's either getting good Scum IC advice or has a somewhat simplistic but reasonably productive and straightforward opinion of hunting.
So, writing him off as town for now.
Spaghetti:
Oh, I don't dispute how it could be useful to you. Anything said is useful in this game, I was just saying any future discussion was probably pointless as we were just going round in circles.What circles? It took us a while to get to the point, but nothing seemed particularly redundant to me.
Ford:
PFPSo his case on you isn't anything unreasonable?So... what's your read on Flying Dice at the moment?Current read? Hmm...
Scummy on gut feeling. But not lynchworthy.
Irony Owl: How did it feel being a prince during Prince's Guard? How did it feel to have big burly men fighting over you? And how did it feel to be murdered at the end of it? I'm doing a study, so it's important that you answer honestly. *stares intently*Fabulous and very inconvenient, respectively.
...I may be a little bit tired...
It was a bit strange initially, because I had this weird position of responsibility and credibility, which made it really important that I do well but really difficult to just sort of jump into the trenches like a good soldier (or at least, I thought it did; that's something of an untested assertion). Later it felt like I suffered the appropriate price for my lack of spine, as a leader has no right to be weak.
NQT:
Given that he had no interest in a Remuthra lynch, I don't really see how it would be.Whether I was scum or town... hrm. Arguably as scum I'd want to stand behind his Remuthra vote to give me more of an excuse to follow it, but otherwise I don't particularly think my alignment would influence that.Should we then take this as a minor point towards suspecting Ford?
Would you be in favor of lynching him while he's up for replacement, then?QuoteHow much of your intent to lynch borno is confidence that he's scum, and how much is wanting to get the day over with?I spent several hours analysing posts when I joined this game and Borno was by far the scummiest. Of course, I may well be wrong and I hope I'm not. Of course, I want the game to move at a little quicker pace and it's fair to say I was perhaps a little too hasty.
Unvote.I'll take this as a no. What changed between shortening to get him dead and get this over with, and unvoting to give you time to read his replacement once he appears?
If you lynch me and then I flip town, what information will team town have gained?Why do you ask?
Well looks like you're in the clear again Ford. Hmm... it sure looks like I could easily have got you lynched there if I hadn't withdrawn my extension. Good job for you that I'm not actually convinced you're scum yet.So you're acting very townlike, is what you'd like to point out to all of us and especially your good buddy Ford?
Flying Dice:
In short, I pushed him with what was essentially an excuse, and he became incredibly defensive, to the point of voting me in what I see as an effort to get me to back off.Sample quotes?
IO: Are you voting borno because he looks like scum, or to pressure him into not giving up?I think it was some looking like scum, but I actually don't recall. Whichever it was, the other goal was to prod him into facing the game, which of course ideally meant not giving up.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 11, 2013, 12:01:51 pm
Spaghetti:There was a lot of backwards and forwards about what question I had answered, then answering the real question before going straight back to the bit which was a response to nothing. Perhaps yo-yo-ing might be more appropriate.Oh, I don't dispute how it could be useful to you. Anything said is useful in this game, I was just saying any future discussion was probably pointless as we were just going round in circles.What circles? It took us a while to get to the point, but nothing seemed particularly redundant to me.
I'm wary to extend again, so I'm just going to hope we can end the first day. I'm going to Vote Flying Dice because of what I saw from Remu, considering there's more of that. He failed to answer questions a fair amount, argued about the relevance of questions without even trying to answer them and made some odd decisions, such as:
I don't see how someone who isn't posting much is the best target. This seems like an attempt to appear to be scum hunting to me.QuoteSo you have no reasons of your own? Your just following Irony?I'm voting because he hasn't posted much, and he seems the best person to pressure.
Post by: notquitethere on March 11, 2013, 01:28:32 pm
In fact, maybe you should restate your case on [borno] completely.Fair enough. The short of it is that Borno's voting and unvoting and revoting of Nerjin and Blast struck me as a particularly erratic. There was a lot of other stuff that might just be play-style. To get any sort of solidity to this read, I'll need to see what the new Borno is like. Hence, my vote is going elsewhere for now.
Dice
NQT: What do you think of the interactions between borno and Captain? Why do you believe that a D1 no-lynch is a good thing for town?I haven't studied their conversations intently but Borno seemed to have a lot of aggression that Ford inherited from Superblast's interactions. Then something interesting happens, over the course of several walls of texts, Ford essentially befriends Borno and they withdraw their votes on one another. From the depth of their interactions, I think it's unlikely that they're both scum, and it's at least plausible that they might both be town.
Did I say a D1 no-lynch would be good for town? I believe I said I'd wait to see if the tie would be broken by someone else before breaking the tie myself. In the last BM I did actually favour a D1 no-lynch, as the current lynch target was certainly not scum, and right enough they were lynched and turned out to be town. I had very good reasons in the last BM for believing the lynch target was innocent. I have seen no such compelling reasons in this game.
IronyOwl
Would you be in favor of lynching [borno] while he's up for replacement, then? What changed between shortening to get him dead and get this over with, and unvoting to give you time to read his replacement once he appears?Perhaps when I was more sure, as if a player is guilty, they're guilty whether they're playing or not. However, I'm not longer so convinced that my case against Borno is as strong as it was before. What changed was I went back and re-read my reads. I keep them all in an excel document (which I use for keeping track of vote patterns) and I went and updated it and came to the conclusion that a lot of my earlier reads could conceivably be generated by a nervous town player. Be under no illusion, I still think Borno is among the most suspicious players at the moment.
Quote
I want to make sure that if I am lynched, then town still benefits. I'd rather not be lynched, of course, but if I am I want it to at least be useful. I still win if we win when I'm dead.If you lynch me and then I flip town, what information will team town have gained?Why do you ask?
Quote
I merely wanted to point out that Ford's extension-related case against me no longer held up in light of my recent actions. Maybe this wasn't a prudent thing to do. Perhaps I should have waited until Ford worked it out himself or someone else pointed it out. Blowing your own trumpet looks bad in this game. Ford's a good guy but he hasn't buddied me this game.Well looks like you're in the clear again Ford. Hmm... it sure looks like I could easily have got you lynched there if I hadn't withdrawn my extension. Good job for you that I'm not actually convinced you're scum yet.So you're acting very townlike, is what you'd like to point out to all of us and especially your good buddy Ford?
Post by: notquitethere on March 11, 2013, 04:43:48 pm
Over the course of the whole game I had the most people vote against me (I had at least 18 votes and six fingers of suspicion from nine different players) and most of the scum, myself included, random voted each other or FOS'd each other as harmless distancing.
Given these insights, who looks most scummiest in this game?
Remuthra/Flying Dice has gained the most votes from the most people across the game, with ten votes and 3 FOS's from six players, compared to Nerjin/Silver Dragon with eight votes from four people. On a purely wisdom-of-the-crowd view, Remuthra/Flying Dice is the most guilty.
I am anticipating a huge backlash here. Whenever I bring up anything half-way logical, people hate it. Here are two objections I'd like to forestall:
1. "Wouldn't scum concentrate their vote, and so someone who has a lot of votes on them is probably town?" My experience is that, in wanting to distance themselves, scum don't concentrate their vote. What they often do is vote for one another on Day One. This is Day One and we can expect that whoever scum is, other scum are likely to have random-voted them or at least FOS'd them. It's not a major tell, but Shakerag has been the most liberal with the Fingers of Suspicion so far.
2. "Why don't you make your own read instead of relying on everyone else's?/You're bandwagoning/You're lazy scum-hunting." This is, if not entirely reasonable, at least wholly expected, so to appease you here are some independent reasons why Remuthra/FD could be scum:
- Remuthra openly stated that they didn't find Borno suspicious and yet still voted for him
- Remuthra had a very standoffish approach to scum hunting at the beginning
- Flying Dice is obviously a lot more competent than Remuthra, and we haven't interacted as much, so there's not much I can say here.
If there's one thing I hate the most, is mislyching. Drawing on past experience, I think my method here is sound. However, I also know that I am a fallible human being and I make mistakes sometimes. So if you've got a really good reason why I'm off-base here, I'd like to here it. I'm looking at the IC's IronyOwl and Shakerag here: this is, after all, supposed to be a learning game.
Post by: Teneb on March 11, 2013, 05:28:59 pm
Onyxjew994(0):
Captain Ford(2):SilverDragon, Flying Dice
borno(0):
notquitethere(2):Captain Ford, IronyOwl
Sphagetti7(0):
Flying Dice(3): Onyxjew994, Sphagetti7, notquitethere
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Not Voting: Shakerag, borno (UP FOR REPLACEMENT)
1 votes for extension. 3 needed.
DAY ENDS TODAY AT 22:00 BRT (GMT-3)
Post by: Teneb on March 11, 2013, 08:09:54 pm
"Have you chosen?"
"Yes, Flying Dice is the traitor!", notquitethere shouts as he steps foward.
"So be it. Flying Dice, you are hereby accused of treason against the Arcane University. The penality for such an act is death."
"I'll die before betraying the Patriarch!", he shouts and, before anyone can do anything about it, cuts his own throat open.
As he lay dying, the marks all Cabal members posssess appear across his body, he whispers "This is not over"
"We can go now, can't we?", IronyOwl says as he too steps foward. "We found the traitor."
"I am afraid not. Evidence found implies that there were two infiltrators. You will be escorted to rooms prepared for you and, at dawn, you will be brought back here"
Flying Dice has been lynched. He was an Illusionist.
Night ends at 12th of March, 22:00 BRT (GMT-3) or when all actions have been submitted.
Post by: Teneb on March 12, 2013, 06:58:01 pm
Found dead in the hallway outside his room was Captain Ford, whom, after careful examination of his body and the marked page on the spellbook he carried, was found to be a Healer.
The surviving magisters were escorted back to the same room in which Flying Dice’s fate had been decided one day earlier. There they would stay until dusk.
Captain Ford has died. He was a Healer.
Day ends 14th of March, 2013 at 22:00 BRT (GMT-3).
Post by: notquitethere on March 12, 2013, 09:17:09 pm
'Curse them though,' he continued, 'how could they have known that Captain Magister Ford was our resident Unctious Ointments specialist?'
I think a collective pat on the back is in order. It's a damn shame they got perhaps our most useful player (if there isn't a cop). I'm pretty chuffed that my reasoning held up. Now we should look at the posts by Superblast/Ford and Remuthra/Flying Dice with a closer eye, looking at people that were on Superblast/Ford's case unreasonably and signs of distancing by and to Remuthra/Flying Dice. I know that that's what I'm going to be looking at now.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 12, 2013, 09:28:01 pm
I now await the rest of you in the afterlife. I'll keep a cup of tea warm for you.
Post by: notquitethere on March 12, 2013, 09:37:48 pm
There was no reason for scum to bus Flying Dice on the first day in a beginners game, right? Dead people can be ruled out, as well as inactive players (else, who would have sent in the kill order?).
Above Suspicion
Onyxjew994
Spaghetti7
notquitethere
Dead
Flying Dice
Captain Ford
Inactive
Borno
SilverDragon
So our list of suspects are the IC's!
Worthy of Suspicion
Shakerag
IronyOwl
AND SO IT BEGINS
Shakerag, you had no less than a random vote, a finger of suspicion and a pressure vote on Remuthra/FD at various points. Reasonable suspicion, or scum distancing?
IronyOwl, you've been quite hands off the whole game, finally settling your vote on me and putting the game into a tie right near the deadline. Why would you do that? Bearing in mind that your tie-vote would have saved Flying Dice had I not have intervened.
I- I think we've got it!
Post by: notquitethere on March 12, 2013, 10:13:00 pm
OK, so it looked like this:
SilverDragon(0):
Onyxjew994(0):
Captain Ford(2): Flying Dice
borno(0):
notquitethere(2):Captain Ford
Sphagetti7(0):
Flying Dice(3): Onyxjew994
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
(Because contrary to Deathsword's count, he said he's take off SilverDragon's vote)
It was a three-way tie.
Then IronyOwl breaks it, voting for a town player. Crucially, a town player not voted for by the other scum (scum like to avoid concentrating their votes):
SilverDragon(0):
Onyxjew994(0):
Captain Ford(2): Flying Dice
borno(0):
notquitethere(2):Captain Ford, IronyOwl
Sphagetti7(0):
Flying Dice(3): Onyxjew994
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
Then Spaghetti creates the draw. This isn't particularly suspicious as it couldn't have been a scum move to deliberately tie things so I didn't get lynched (as me, Spaghetti and FD can't all have been scum).
SilverDragon(0):
Onyxjew994(0):
Captain Ford(2): Flying Dice
borno(0):
notquitethere(2):Captain Ford, IronyOwl
Sphagetti7(0):
Flying Dice(3): Onyxjew994, Spaghetti7
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
And then I end the draw:
SilverDragon(0):
Onyxjew994(0):
Captain Ford(2): Flying Dice
borno(0):
notquitethere(2):Captain Ford, IronyOwl
Sphagetti7(0):
Flying Dice(3): Onyxjew994, Sphagetti7, notquitethere
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):
IronyOwl's vote wasn't a tie-breaker, like I thought just a moment ago, but instead a vote which attacked a town-member and drew threat away from scum. (In fairness, both these things are possible to do accidentally as town.)
Post by: notquitethere on March 12, 2013, 10:41:25 pm
Is it telling that in IronyOwl's initial post (http://"http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4051363#msg4051363"), he addresses all players but two: Lord Al (my predecessor) who had never posted and scum Remuthra, who had posted 16 times since the game started (much more than several of the other players) and had at that time two votes to his name? i.e. not a player one would usually miss wanting to question. In fact, Ironyowl, in addressing healer SuperBlast, appear to give what might now be interpreted as a deflective defence of Remuthra:
superBlast:So I'm gonna stop voting random people now and and vote who I suspect and that would be Remu.TIME TO MISLYNCH YOU AGAIN HAHAHAHA!
Vote Remuthra
Uh, ahem. This is nice and all, but are you actually pressuring Remu at the moment, or have you just decided he's the best target to kill? A very quick scan back didn't reveal anything, and it's usually better to try to get a better read on someone, even someone you genuinely suspect is scum, than to just vote them and sit on what you've got.
Post by: Tiruin on March 13, 2013, 01:17:35 am
Sorry for multi-posting guys, but hot damn I think I have a case.{That's how you edit and add to your post :P
Multi-posting is accepted in the Mafia board - just try to put it all in one organized post if you can.}
Post by: IronyOwl on March 13, 2013, 04:17:43 am
How does this relate to asking about it, though? Does knowing how or checking on whether town will benefit from your lynch make it less likely or more productive or something?QuoteI want to make sure that if I am lynched, then town still benefits. I'd rather not be lynched, of course, but if I am I want it to at least be useful. I still win if we win when I'm dead.If you lynch me and then I flip town, what information will team town have gained?Why do you ask?
It's a case of WIFOM. If scum would never do X, of course scum is going to do X because it'll mask that they're scum. Pointing out that it clears you (in most cases; there are exceptions) explains why it doesn't clear you.QuoteI merely wanted to point out that Ford's extension-related case against me no longer held up in light of my recent actions. Maybe this wasn't a prudent thing to do. Perhaps I should have waited until Ford worked it out himself or someone else pointed it out. Blowing your own trumpet looks bad in this game. Ford's a good guy but he hasn't buddied me this game.Well looks like you're in the clear again Ford. Hmm... it sure looks like I could easily have got you lynched there if I hadn't withdrawn my extension. Good job for you that I'm not actually convinced you're scum yet.So you're acting very townlike, is what you'd like to point out to all of us and especially your good buddy Ford?
The bedrock example of this would be scumhunting. Scum don't want to find scum, so clearly they'd never scumhunt. Except that makes them look like scum, so of course they pretend to scumhunt, even if not always very well. Hence, "I'm scumhunting therefore I couldn't be scum!" isn't a very good argument, at least not in blunt terms like that. Subtler nuances can still have merit, but this didn't seem like one of those to me.
I've been umming and ahhing on who looks scummiest. I probably don't have as finally honed scum-senses as the more seasoned players. My style is to look at the concrete and try to learn from the games I've been in. Though it was a different game mode, I think there might be some meta-data lessons to be learned from the recent masons game. In that game, I was scum and no one else kept track of voting patterns. This worked in my favour then because there were several meta-tells that were easily spotted.Whoa whoa whoa. What's the logic here? You were scum this one time and everyone voted you, so scum get the most votes, so this guy with the most votes is scum? Doesn't that seem more like an example than a pattern? Admittedly now you're 2 for 2, but still.
Over the course of the whole game I had the most people vote against me (I had at least 18 votes and six fingers of suspicion from nine different players) and most of the scum, myself included, random voted each other or FOS'd each other as harmless distancing.
Given these insights, who looks most scummiest in this game?
Remuthra/Flying Dice has gained the most votes from the most people across the game, with ten votes and 3 FOS's from six players, compared to Nerjin/Silver Dragon with eight votes from four people. On a purely wisdom-of-the-crowd view, Remuthra/Flying Dice is the most guilty.
Furthermore, what's the mechanism? Why would scum accumulate more votes and FoS's than town, yet not in a way that got them lynched?
For that matter, what's the correlation between being voted and being lynched, if any? I'm kind of curious about that now, since you apparently squeaked by despite all that sporadic attention and FD was lynched fairly narrowly.
I am anticipating a huge backlash here. Whenever I bring up anything half-way logical, people hate it. Here are two objections I'd like to forestall:Well, this sounds like you know there's something about your argument that people aren't going to like, and I don't really believe it's just "it uses logic."
1. "Wouldn't scum concentrate their vote, and so someone who has a lot of votes on them is probably town?" My experience is that, in wanting to distance themselves, scum don't concentrate their vote. What they often do is vote for one another on Day One. This is Day One and we can expect that whoever scum is, other scum are likely to have random-voted them or at least FOS'd them. It's not a major tell, but Shakerag has been the most liberal with the Fingers of Suspicion so far.Again, this seems dangerously assumptive. It's fine as a starting point, but... actually, I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. Scum don't concentrate their vote or bandwagon, Shakerag's used FoS's liberally, therefore your FD vote is entirely sound?
2. "Why don't you make your own read instead of relying on everyone else's?/You're bandwagoning/You're lazy scum-hunting." This is, if not entirely reasonable, at least wholly expected, so to appease you here are some independent reasons why Remuthra/FD could be scum:This doesn't seem like it has anything to do with your vote, though. It sounds like you're saying "FD is scum because of this reasoning, however I know you guys will say that's stupid, so here's some possible reasons you might like that I pulled up just to maybe appease you."
- Remuthra openly stated that they didn't find Borno suspicious and yet still voted for him
- Remuthra had a very standoffish approach to scum hunting at the beginning
- Flying Dice is obviously a lot more competent than Remuthra, and we haven't interacted as much, so there's not much I can say here.
Which seems rather odd. Are you padding your case or what?
If there's one thing I hate the most, is mislyching. Drawing on past experience, I think my method here is sound. However, I also know that I am a fallible human being and I make mistakes sometimes. So if you've got a really good reason why I'm off-base here, I'd like to here it. I'm looking at the IC's IronyOwl and Shakerag here: this is, after all, supposed to be a learning game.I've already covered some of it above, but the short answer is that I think you're drawing unnecessary assumptions from an anecdote.
Of course, it's a bit harder to sell that explanation now that it seems to have been proven correct, but if I might offer an alternative hypothesis? Remuthra was inexperienced scum, and so slipped up badly, hence Remuthra had a lot of votes but then replaced out. That's similar to what you're saying, but it relies on three very important assumptions I don't see in your current analysis:
1. Remuthra was scum that dropped a lot of tells, as opposed to scum that didn't
2. Remuthra was scum that looked scummy, as opposed to town that looked scummy
3. Remuthra hadn't been bandwagoned and lynched for his mistakes by the time you came to your conclusion
Which boils down to "You/Town got lucky." Your analysis wouldn't have worked on experienced scum, flailing town, or (at least usefully) bandwagons that were over before you had time to point them out. Not coincidentally, those also tend to be the things regular, plain old "lynch the guy making mistakes" style town bandwagons tend to fail on; and indeed, since your method relies on (in this case D1) votes, you'd expect it to function pretty similarly, wouldn't you?
Post getting too long. I should really trim some of it out to remain concise and effective, but I'm too lazy for that so I'm going to post this and then talk even more. Note that nobody except NQT is going to read much of this garbage as a result.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 13, 2013, 04:45:20 am
Yay! I made myself a huge hulking target. While playing the doctor. Go me!Indeed.
I now await the rest of you in the afterlife. I'll keep a cup of tea warm for you.
Well, sort of. Speculating on just why scum killed you is a Bad Thing, but the obvious answer is because you were a dangerous player.
NQT (again):
Now we should look at the posts by Superblast/Ford and Remuthra/Flying Dice with a closer eye, looking at people that were on Superblast/Ford's case unreasonably and signs of distancing by and to Remuthra/Flying Dice. I know that that's what I'm going to be looking at now.Quite. Unfortunately I'm a liiiiiiittle busy right now, so this will have to wait on my end.
There was no reason for scum to bus Flying Dice on the first day in a beginners game, right?Exactly. Which means that any scum that did would get a free pass, which means it'd be a cunning thing to do.
Now, usually beginner scum are not that cunning; they're greedy and cowardly, and having two scum ends the day and insures against mistakes or accidents a lot better than one. However, there are several things that bother me about this particular lynch.
One, FD was taking a lot of flak for Remuthra's stuff. He, his buddy, and whoever the Scum IC is could quite possibly have decided he was a sinking ship. FD himself was doing quite well, mind you- that was pretty much all he was taking flak for- but it was definitely an option.
Two, this is the second time you've been so vocal about how positively townlike you are.
Three, your FD vote was rather sudden and with odd reasoning, while both you and he were tied for votes. Hoping it passed to a nolynch might have been a better scum move if it'd worked, but ensuring not only your own survival but invulnerability at the cost of someone who was likely to be on the chopping block soon anyway would have been a rather nice deal, wouldn't it?
Dead people can be ruled out, as well as inactive players (else, who would have sent in the kill order?).We should probably check on this, assuming DS can answer it, but allowing the Scum IC or dead scum to send in a kill order wouldn't be out of the question.
Crucially, a town player not voted for by the other scum (scum like to avoid concentrating their votes):I don't see anything crucial or conclusive about that.
IronyOwl's vote wasn't a tie-breaker, like I thought just a moment ago, but instead a vote which attacked a town-member and drew threat away from scum. (In fairness, both these things are possible to do accidentally as town.)Who says you're town?
Also, what happened to the reread paying attention to everyone's interactions? I'm certainly not in a position to judge if you haven't gotten around to that yet, but so far it seems like you've glanced back at the end of the day voting and that's it.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 13, 2013, 04:46:10 am
Deathsword: In the event that all living scum are in need of replacements, can a Scum IC or dead scum direct night actions on the scumteam's behalf?
Post by: notquitethere on March 13, 2013, 10:49:54 am
How does this relate to asking about [what information will be gained by NQT's lynch], though? Does knowing how or checking on whether town will benefit from your lynch make it less likely or more productive or something?Well, I'd hoped that it might make it less likely if they had to actually stop and think about what would be gained from my mislynch. It's hopefully no longer a pressing issue now.
Quote
[Blowing your own trumptet is] a case of WIFOM. If scum would never do X, of course scum is going to do X because it'll mask that they're scum. Pointing out that it clears you (in most cases; there are exceptions) explains why it doesn't clear you.Sure, it probably wasn't a very good thing to say for either town or scum. I'm glad I acted how I did though, as we would have mislynched Ford otherwise.
The bedrock example of this would be scumhunting. Scum don't want to find scum, so clearly they'd never scumhunt. Except that makes them look like scum, so of course they pretend to scumhunt, even if not always very well. Hence, "I'm scumhunting therefore I couldn't be scum!" isn't a very good argument, at least not in blunt terms like that. Subtler nuances can still have merit, but this didn't seem like one of those to me.
Quote
These are fair questions, and what I would call a lesson, you might call an anecdote. But I've had a think about it and I think I've discovered a general principle of mafia: often times a person will give off scum-tells and will be suspicious for lots of different people over a long time, but scrape by because not enough people think that they're suspicious at the same time. In contrast to Remuthra/FD, I've only been voted four times (including once by Remuthra/FD), less than Borno and Nerjin/SD. I should point out that this isn't the only way of scumhunting, and you're absolutely right that more competent scum will avoid that level of attention. And who is more competent than an IC?[Logic!]Whoa whoa whoa. What's the logic here? You were scum this one time and everyone voted you, so scum get the most votes, so this guy with the most votes is scum? Doesn't that seem more like an example than a pattern? Admittedly now you're 2 for 2, but still.
Furthermore, what's the mechanism? Why would scum accumulate more votes and FoS's than town, yet not in a way that got them lynched?
For that matter, what's the correlation between being voted and being lynched, if any? I'm kind of curious about that now, since you apparently squeaked by despite all that sporadic attention and FD was lynched fairly narrowly.
Quote
Hah! Maybe you haven't seen my previous games but a lot of people around here recoil at the idea of looking at voting patterns.I am anticipating a huge backlash here. Whenever I bring up anything half-way logical, people hate it. Here are two objections I'd like to forestall:Well, this sounds like you know there's something about your argument that people aren't going to like, and I don't really believe it's just "it uses logic."
Quote
Again, this seems dangerously assumptive. It's fine as a starting point, but... actually, I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. Scum don't concentrate their vote or bandwagon, Shakerag's used FoS's liberally, therefore your FD vote is entirely sound?My point was just that if someone didn't think scum could get a massive vote count because the other scum player wouldn't vote for them, they may be mistaken. It wasn't a big point (especially as there's only one other scum player). Actually, it might go the other way: the only people that never voted for Remuthra/FD were Borno and yourself.
Quote
This doesn't seem like it has anything to do with your vote, though. It sounds like you're saying "FD is scum because of this reasoning, however I know you guys will say that's stupid, so here's some possible reasons you might like that I pulled up just to maybe appease you."I was offering supporting reasons, as I know what counts as a burden of proof for myself may not count as such for other. As it happens, I was absolutely correct.
Which seems rather odd. Are you padding your case or what?
Quote
I've already covered some of it above, but the short answer is that I think you're drawing unnecessary assumptions from an anecdote.Crucially though, and I've made this additional connection above, Remuthra dropped a lot of tells and was voted for by lots of people just not at the same time. He would have slipped by if I hadn't have looked at the voting record and made the connection. He wasn't killed by luck but by analysis. I don't think we'll get the next scum in the same way, because the remaining scum is most likely you or Shakerag and you're both more experienced players.
Of course, it's a bit harder to sell that explanation now that it seems to have been proven correct, but if I might offer an alternative hypothesis? Remuthra was inexperienced scum, and so slipped up badly, hence Remuthra had a lot of votes but then replaced out. That's similar to what you're saying, but it relies on three very important assumptions I don't see in your current analysis:
1. Remuthra was scum that dropped a lot of tells, as opposed to scum that didn't
2. Remuthra was scum that looked scummy, as opposed to town that looked scummy
3. Remuthra hadn't been bandwagoned and lynched for his mistakes by the time you came to your conclusion
Which boils down to "You/Town got lucky." Your analysis wouldn't have worked on experienced scum, flailing town, or (at least usefully) bandwagons that were over before you had time to point them out. Not coincidentally, those also tend to be the things regular, plain old "lynch the guy making mistakes" style town bandwagons tend to fail on; and indeed, since your method relies on (in this case D1) votes, you'd expect it to function pretty similarly, wouldn't you?
Ha! While it's nice that you think I might be some kind of Machiavellian mastermind, shall we first consider the more likely before moving on to the more fantastic? Flying Dice might well have continued to escape the chopping block if I hadn't have cast my vote, he was a very competent player. I should think my innocence would be obvious by now (like that of Onyx and Spaghetti), but if I'm wrong about you or Shakerag, then everyone may rightly consider me a worthy target of suspicion once more. And I always look at the voting patterns, that how I play this game. So for me, it wasn't so strange a reason.There was no reason for scum to bus Flying Dice on the first day in a beginners game, right?Exactly. Which means that any scum that did would get a free pass, which means it'd be a cunning thing to do.
Now, usually beginner scum are not that cunning; they're greedy and cowardly, and having two scum ends the day and insures against mistakes or accidents a lot better than one. However, there are several things that bother me about this particular lynch.
One, FD was taking a lot of flak for Remuthra's stuff. He, his buddy, and whoever the Scum IC is could quite possibly have decided he was a sinking ship. FD himself was doing quite well, mind you- that was pretty much all he was taking flak for- but it was definitely an option.
Two, this is the second time you've been so vocal about how positively townlike you are.
Three, your FD vote was rather sudden and with odd reasoning, while both you and he were tied for votes. Hoping it passed to a nolynch might have been a better scum move if it'd worked, but ensuring not only your own survival but invulnerability at the cost of someone who was likely to be on the chopping block soon anyway would have been a rather nice deal, wouldn't it?
Quote
Also, what happened to the reread paying attention to everyone's interactions? I'm certainly not in a position to judge if you haven't gotten around to that yet, but so far it seems like you've glanced back at the end of the day voting and that's it.Rest assured that is happening. First, I thought of the best way to proceed, then as I knew I'd be looking back, I thought to draft a list of suspects, then I saw that the suspects were just you and Shakerag and then I looked back and found evidence that made you look suspicious. That was the train of events.
Onyx, Spaghetti, what do you think of my case against IronyOwl? Or should we be more suspicious of Shakerag?
Post by: Shakerag on March 13, 2013, 12:35:45 pm
As this is an open setup, with the godfather dead, the cop (if there is one) can now trust his/her inspections to be 100% correct.
Scumteam, you have a bit of work cut out for you. Continue to appear town-like by keeping up activity and scumhunting. It's still possible for you to win even with half your team gone. And, of course, consult with your scum IC for more detailed instructions.]
There was no reason for scum to bus Flying Dice on the first day in a beginners game, right?[Addressed by IronyOwl, but yeah, this is WIFOM.]
Shakerag, you had no less than a random vote, a finger of suspicion and a pressure vote on Remuthra/FD at various points. Reasonable suspicion, or scum distancing?Suspicion certainly, but also a healthy dose of pressure (both to catch slip-ups and as an educational tool). And, admittedly, a bit of unprofessional "I want you to hang because of your eye-fucking formatting and not listening to me when I'm trying to correct that and other things". Which, depending on how you look at it, is another pressure reason.
As far as Flying Dice goes, he seemed to be playing pretty solidly to me. For better or worse, I tend to back off a bit when someone gets replaced so as to get a feel for the replacee. Since Flying Dice didn't really set off any alarms, I likely chalked up Remuthra's behavior as more "newbie flailing" than "newscum flailing".
Dead people can be ruled out, as well as inactive players (else, who would have sent in the kill order?).[Actually, I just remembered at least one instance where a player requested replacement but still sent in night action orders when prompted. So inactives can't be ruled out automatically.]
Doing a re-read myself, but notquitethere *is* a bit suspicious for the whole "rah rah I'm town go town" thing as IronyOwl noted.
NQT: Now that we've had two roleflips, how do you feel about your case on borno?
Ford:Which is why you killed him, right?Yay! I made myself a huge hulking target. While playing the doctor. Go me!Indeed.
I now await the rest of you in the afterlife. I'll keep a cup of tea warm for you.
Well, sort of. Speculating on just why scum killed you is a Bad Thing, but the obvious answer is because you were a dangerous player.
Post by: notquitethere on March 13, 2013, 12:58:35 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 13, 2013, 01:03:28 pm
... anymore. My new cases are against you and Ironyowl. Until further indication, Borno is presumed innocent.
Flying Dice did look solid, and even I didn't overly suspect Remuthra before. But the meta-data was telling and that's what I went with and that's why Flying Dice is dead.
[On an IC game-advice level, how do you avoid overstating the fact that you are town when playing town? Is there an acceptable level of assuming your own innocence in public, or must you always pretend that you might be guilty, for the benefit of others?]
Post by: Teneb on March 13, 2013, 01:22:31 pm
Finally:If all living scum are up for replacement the scum IC may direct the night kill.
Deathsword: In the event that all living scum are in need of replacements, can a Scum IC or dead scum direct night actions on the scumteam's behalf?
Post by: notquitethere on March 13, 2013, 01:30:32 pm
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 13, 2013, 07:17:08 pm
Onyx, Spaghetti, what do you think of my case against IronyOwl? Or should we be more suspicious of Shakerag?It seems solid, but it seems to be heavily based on a few critical assumptions that either could easily be false or have already been proven false. You being Town and inactive players being Town, respectively.
NWT Why do you keep mentioning that you are Town?
IronyOwl Besides NQT, who are you currently suspicious of?
Sorry about the current failures in activity, but IRL duty calls. I'll be looking back through our month-long D1 over the weekend. I'll try to remain current on my readings and answer questions, but no WoT investigations for now.
Post by: notquitethere on March 13, 2013, 08:06:15 pm
That inactive players still might have a vote through the scum IC changes things, and I'll take that fact into account as I continue to look back at the actions of Remuthra/SilverDragon.
Post by: Vector on March 14, 2013, 02:22:25 am
I am anticipating a huge backlash here. Whenever I bring up anything half-way logical, people hate it.
Doodabuddy, if it helps to rest your mind I'm a professional mathematician-in-training. Keep plugging away... you're a clever dude and your data analysis will probably help someday, but accepting lessons with humility is step one to overcoming your predecessors.
Post by: Teneb on March 14, 2013, 12:26:49 pm
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 14, 2013, 12:39:56 pm
People R/FD voted for: borno (out of the game),
Nothing conclusive there, but you could say it is more what isn't there.
People R/FD DIDN'T vote for: SilverDragon, Onyxjew, Shakerag, IronyOwl.
Interesting.
People who didn't vote for R/FD: IronyOwl.
People who are therefore suspicious: Shakerag, IronyOwl, NQT
Let me explain.
Shakerag
Only mildly suspicious. While R/FD never voted for you, you voted for them twice. Neither were particularly strongly placed votes, however, so you are still held under suspicion.
IronyOwl
More suspicious. You never voted for R/FD in the whole game, and they didn't vote for you. I understand ICs are not the most active of people, but you do start to look a little scummy now. However, I do agree with your ideas on...
NQT
Damn, man, you're looking a little scummy too. You flipped the vote to lynch R/FD an hour before the deadline. Whether that's luck, or a scum trying to look town I can't tell. R/FD also only ever placed a pressure vote on your predeccesor, never anything strong minded. Now, this isn't much, put your post after the deadline rings alarm bells. It seems to be someone trying so hard to look town, that they look scum.
Above SuspicionSo, we're all above suspicion just for managing to lynch scum. How do we know that bussing hasn't happened? In Mafia, it's guilty until proven innocent.
Onyxjew994
Spaghetti7
notquitethere
I- I think we've got it!Ooh, try-hard-townie, let's all be friends. No, I'm not so sure.
Well I keep saying that you and Spaghetti are town as well.Oh, well that must make us all town. It seems to me like you are trying to rush us in to your case, and completely ignore yourself. That isn't going to happen.
Onyx, Spaghetti, what do you think of my case against IronyOwl? Or should we be more suspicious of Shakerag?Again, stop trying to make friends. Just because you voted scum, doesn't mean you're not scum. And same for us.
There was no reason for scum to bus Flying Dice on the first day in a beginners game, right?I don't know, why don't you tell me NQT, you scum?
Oh, and IronyOwl, why were you voting for NQT at the time of the lynch?
Post by: notquitethere on March 14, 2013, 12:50:50 pm
Vote to Extend
There's a lot here I'd like to respond to buy I'm at a friend's place tonight.
If I do get lynched, please reassess my arguments in the face of my flip.
Post by: Teneb on March 14, 2013, 01:12:12 pm
Onyxjew994(0):
Borno(0):
notquitethere(1):Sphagetti7
Sphagetti7(0):
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(1):notquitethere
Not Voting: Onyxjew994, Shakerag, IronyOwl
Up for replacement: SilverDragon, borno
1 vote for extension. 2 needed (~33% of players)
Post by: Shakerag on March 14, 2013, 01:31:33 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 14, 2013, 07:40:33 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 15, 2013, 05:03:54 am
Who would we have learned a lot from lynching, then? Or was this a simple, selfish attempt at defense by lack of gain?How does this relate to asking about [what information will be gained by NQT's lynch], though? Does knowing how or checking on whether town will benefit from your lynch make it less likely or more productive or something?Well, I'd hoped that it might make it less likely if they had to actually stop and think about what would be gained from my mislynch. It's hopefully no longer a pressing issue now.
These are fair questions, and what I would call a lesson, you might call an anecdote. But I've had a think about it and I think I've discovered a general principle of mafia: often times a person will give off scum-tells and will be suspicious for lots of different people over a long time, but scrape by because not enough people think that they're suspicious at the same time.This is an interesting premise, then.
But again, in order to be valid there has to be some mechanism by which scum will do this more often than town will, or more often than scum will catch everyone's attentions all at once and just die, right? Otherwise it's still basically throwing in behind a bandwagon, just a more technical bandwagon than usual.
In contrast to Remuthra/FD, I've only been voted four times (including once by Remuthra/FD), less than Borno and Nerjin/SD. I should point out that this isn't the only way of scumhunting, and you're absolutely right that more competent scum will avoid that level of attention. And who is more competent than an IC?I like this pressure. I like your gusto in defending yourself in general, actually, even if I disagree with the specifics.
But again, here it looks like you're trying to weasel out on a technicality. You have less votes than other people, so you're safe. I'm competent enough to avoid votes so I might be scum. It reeks of that attempt to impugn others and hold yourself above suspicion based on technical assumptions rather than genuine scumhunting.
Hah! Maybe you haven't seen my previous games but a lot of people around here recoil at the idea of looking at voting patterns.Looking at voting patterns can be quite informative. It's not a substitute for scumhunting, though, and I think in this case you're reading too much into it.
I was offering supporting reasons, as I know what counts as a burden of proof for myself may not count as such for other. As it happens, I was absolutely correct.Ah, but we don't know that, do we? If I'd said that Remuthra's name started with an R, and R was pretty close to S, and S stood for scum, I would have been "absolutely correct" also.
For that matter, we still don't know how well your theory's going to hold up for the other scum, to say nothing of how correct those supporting reasons are/will be. If your theory was completely correct we'd just be lynching whoever's had the second most votes and be done with it, wouldn't we?
Crucially though, and I've made this additional connection above, Remuthra dropped a lot of tells and was voted for by lots of people just not at the same time. He would have slipped by if I hadn't have looked at the voting record and made the connection. He wasn't killed by luck but by analysis. I don't think we'll get the next scum in the same way, because the remaining scum is most likely you or Shakerag and you're both more experienced players.But again, this requires that your reasoning be entirely correct, which you don't know, and your analysis only worked because of that luck. If FD had been in his slot from the get-go, your analysis would have failed miserably and we'd have lynched borno or something. If the scum was me and Shakerag or The Soldier and Ford, it never would have worked and your logic would essentially have lynched weak targets that weren't taken out immediately.
That's the part I don't trust about your method, and I think that's the part you're not getting. It works fine when the scummiest player is scummy scum who hasn't already been traditionally bandwagoned, but fails miserably or is redundant any other time.
Ha! While it's nice that you think I might be some kind of Machiavellian mastermind, shall we first consider the more likely before moving on to the more fantastic? Flying Dice might well have continued to escape the chopping block if I hadn't have cast my vote, he was a very competent player. I should think my innocence would be obvious by now (like that of Onyx and Spaghetti), but if I'm wrong about you or Shakerag, then everyone may rightly consider me a worthy target of suspicion once more. And I always look at the voting patterns, that how I play this game. So for me, it wasn't so strange a reason.Well, Flying Dice and Imiknorris are fairly dangerous also.
But again, your innocence isn't obvious, and neither is Onyx's or Spaghetti's (though personally, I think Spaghetti's vote looks organic and non-bussy enough to be neither an accident nor a ploy). If it was, I don't see how killing two people of your choice would revoke it, either. Is it possible you're scum or isn't it? What is it about me and Shakerag that means you can't be scum while we're alive but if we both get lynched, yeah, it could totally be you?
Rest assured that is happening. First, I thought of the best way to proceed, then as I knew I'd be looking back, I thought to draft a list of suspects, then I saw that the suspects were just you and Shakerag and then I looked back and found evidence that made you look suspicious. That was the train of events.That's fine, it's just that your current case seems lazy and weak.
Onyx, Spaghetti, what do you think of my case against IronyOwl? Or should we be more suspicious of Shakerag?Trying to set up a false dichotomy is another scumtell, you know.
[On an IC game-advice level, how do you avoid overstating the fact that you are town when playing town? Is there an acceptable level of assuming your own innocence in public, or must you always pretend that you might be guilty, for the benefit of others?]It's a matter of perspective. Saying out loud that you know you're town and can therefore draw the following conclusions isn't very useful to anyone but you, so there's usually not that much reason to say it to anyone but you. There can be places for it, but again, it's usually not productive or conducive to anything because it can't be taken as true by anyone.
Well I keep saying that you and Spaghetti are town as well. I think it's pretty obvious that given the state of the game as it was, bussing would have been completely ridiculous.How so? You're stating right now just how awesome a position it would be for scum, and I've explained several times how WIFOM of this nature works, so what is it? What would have made this such a bad or impractical idea for scum that they'd never do it, even if it's obvious that anyone who did it would get a free pass to the end of the game?
I'm not trying to push anyone on my purported towndom, the record speaks for itself and everyone should feel free to make their own mind up about it. Clearly more people need to have their say and more retrospection needs to occur before we make our final decisions for the day. Now the doc is dead, we can only afford two mislynches, so we should obviously choose carefully.The record doesn't speak for itself, it sits there waiting for people to come along and interpret it.
More importantly, why suddenly such a hands-off approach here? First it's obvious, then... well, everyone can make up their own minds, you certainly don't need to tell them how to think. If someone didn't get it or disagreed, would you just let the matter sit?
Shakerag:
Which is why you killed him, right?Well no, he wouldn't have been dangerous to me. If I had killed him it'd probably be because he would've looked very good after having been attacking by confirmed scum all day.
Onyx:
IronyOwl Besides NQT, who are you currently suspicious of?Pretty much everyone, I'm afraid. Spaghetti's vote, as I've mentioned, seemed too early to be a gambit and too late to be an accident, so I'm not seriously suspicious of him, but everyone else is at least a mildly legitimate target. I'll hopefully get around to that reread and have a more refined, useful answer sometime soon.
Spaghetti:
Alright, nice job town. Now I've had a quick look at Remu/Flying Dice's posts and actions, and I've come up with the following:This seems kind of odd. Your analysis looked like it was essentially focused on votes, but then your conclusion is based on vote timing and trying to look town.
Damn, man, you're looking a little scummy too. You flipped the vote to lynch R/FD an hour before the deadline. Whether that's luck, or a scum trying to look town I can't tell. R/FD also only ever placed a pressure vote on your predeccesor, never anything strong minded. Now, this isn't much, put your post after the deadline rings alarm bells. It seems to be someone trying so hard to look town, that they look scum.
This does seem to be dodging his question, though. Why is that?Onyx, Spaghetti, what do you think of my case against IronyOwl? Or should we be more suspicious of Shakerag?Again, stop trying to make friends. Just because you voted scum, doesn't mean you're not scum. And same for us.
Oh, and IronyOwl, why were you voting for NQT at the time of the lynch?Flipflopping on borno, looking like he was trying to look very townlike/wriggle out of a lynch, and maybe buddy Ford. Mainly it was that "gee Ford lucky thing I didn't vote you just now or I'd totally have lynched you" part, as I recall.
Post by: notquitethere on March 15, 2013, 08:36:45 am
Doodabuddy, if it helps to rest your mind I'm a professional mathematician-in-training. Keep plugging away... you're a clever dude and your data analysis will probably help someday, but accepting lessons with humility is step one to overcoming your predecessors.Thanks. You're right about humility. I hope to learn much from this game and be a better player for it in future.
Spaghetti
Alright, nice job town. Now I've had a quick look at Remu/Flying Dice's posts and actions, and I've come up with the following:I like your analysis, and it's telling that you've independantly come to the same conclusions as I have. My predecessor had zero posts, so I wouldn't read too much into votes against him. I admit that the way I presented my own case was open to me looking too eager.
People R/FD voted for: borno (out of the game),Ford(dead town), NQT (pressure).
Nothing conclusive there, but you could say it is more what isn't there.
People R/FD DIDN'T vote for: SilverDragon, Onyxjew, Shakerag, IronyOwl.
Interesting.
People who didn't vote for R/FD: IronyOwl.
People who are therefore suspicious: Shakerag, IronyOwl, NQT
Let me explain.
Shakerag
Only mildly suspicious. While R/FD never voted for you, you voted for them twice. Neither were particularly strongly placed votes, however, so you are still held under suspicion.
IronyOwl
More suspicious. You never voted for R/FD in the whole game, and they didn't vote for you. I understand ICs are not the most active of people, but you do start to look a little scummy now. However, I do agree with your ideas on...
NQT
Damn, man, you're looking a little scummy too. You flipped the vote to lynch R/FD an hour before the deadline. Whether that's luck, or a scum trying to look town I can't tell. R/FD also only ever placed a pressure vote on your predeccesor, never anything strong minded. Now, this isn't much, put your post after the deadline rings alarm bells. It seems to be someone trying so hard to look town, that they look scum.
Quote
So, we're all above suspicion just for managing to lynch scum. How do we know that bussing hasn't happened? In Mafia, it's guilty until proven innocent.Of course there is on going uncertainty, and of course any one of us might turn out to be scum. But look, you can't doubt everything all at the same time. Skepticism is like taking apart a ship, plank by plank, while you're on the ship: you can doubt anyone or anything, you can pull up any plank, but always you've got to be standing on something while you do. Right now, I'm pulling up on IronyOwl, then Shakerag. If this doesn't come to anything, I'll stand somewhere else.
Quote
Again, stop trying to make friends. Just because you voted scum, doesn't mean you're not scum. And same for us.I note that you didn't answer my question. Also, being friendly in general doesn't make me scum. I'm friendly to Ironyowl and I think (s?)he's most likely to be scum.
Quote
Well, I'm telling you now that scum not-bussing is much more likely at this stage than scum-bussing. Later facts might emerge that swing the odds, but right now I'm pretty confident that Ironyowl and Shakerag are our best bets. Also, given that others aren't voting, you nearly caused a no-lynch. Surely that wasn't intentional?There was no reason for scum to bus Flying Dice on the first day in a beginners game, right?I don't know, why don't you tell me NQT, you scum?
irony owl
Who would we have learned a lot from lynching, then? Or was this a simple, selfish attempt at defense by lack of gain?Someone who a lot of people had beef with. Like, you know, the person who we ended up lynching.
Quote
I like this pressure. I like your gusto in defending yourself in general, actually, even if I disagree with the specifics.You say technical assumptions, I say suggestive evidence. Eh. I'm scum-hunting the traditional way as well. Well, actually at the moment I'm mostly fielding questions. Most of the pressure is on me at the moment, and that's as it should be: I've tried to go town-lead on this and present a case against someone and so i should be under scrutiny.
But again, here it looks like you're trying to weasel out on a technicality. You have less votes than other people, so you're safe. I'm competent enough to avoid votes so I might be scum. It reeks of that attempt to impugn others and hold yourself above suspicion based on technical assumptions rather than genuine scumhunting.
!!! I'll answer the rest later- at library and now out of my alloted time!
Onyxjew994, Shakerag, IronyOwl, your collective lack of voting nearly ended in a no-lynch. I know this is 'extension mafia', but could you make your cases and cast your votes before day end this time?
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 15, 2013, 09:41:12 am
IronyOwl Care to explain this? You seem to be stating two conflicting opinions in one post.Onyx, Spaghetti, what do you think of my case against IronyOwl? Or should we be more suspicious of Shakerag?Trying to set up a false dichotomy is another scumtell, you know.This does seem to be dodging his question, though. Why is that?Onyx, Spaghetti, what do you think of my case against IronyOwl? Or should we be more suspicious of Shakerag?Again, stop trying to make friends. Just because you voted scum, doesn't mean you're not scum. And same for us.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 15, 2013, 09:48:32 am
Onyxjew994, Shakerag, IronyOwl, your collective lack of voting nearly ended in a no-lynch. I know this is 'extension mafia', but could you make your cases and cast your votes before day end this time?Correct me if I am wrong here, but did I or did I not vote FD on that lynch? I think you actually posted a votecount of your own that included me as one of his voters. Circa right here:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Typo? Mistake? Bad counting? Forgotten information? Unknown meaning? What is it, dear NQT?
Post by: Teneb on March 15, 2013, 09:53:17 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 15, 2013, 10:39:27 am
Post by: Shakerag on March 15, 2013, 11:13:09 am
I'm not trying to push anyone on my purported towndom, the record speaks for itself and everyone should feel free to make their own mind up about it.Can you clarify what exactly you mean in the bolded part?
I like your analysis, and it's telling that you've independantly come to the same conclusions as I have. My predecessor had zero posts, so I wouldn't read too much into votes against him. I admit that the way I presented my own case was open to me looking too eager.This feels a little on the "hey, you totally agree with me and I'm going to butter you up so you feel like we're on the same team" side. It's not like that's something that I've seen scum do before or anything, goodness no.
[NQT, while it may be in your nature to be a bit more buddy-buddy with people (as I'm possibly inferring from your posts), do realize that in these kinds of games that comes off less like "I'm just being friendly" and more like "I'm trying to sell you a shitty used car".]
Spaghetti7@346: For what it's worth, it has been my observation as both newbie and IC that players in BMs tend to not vote/go after ICs very much. So I would take any supporting arguments on a case of the nature "so-and-so didn't vote/pressure such-and-such IC" with a bit of salt.
Shakerag:So is there anyone who would be dangerous to you?Which is why you killed him, right?Well no, he wouldn't have been dangerous to me. If I had killed him it'd probably be because he would've looked very good after having been attacking by confirmed scum all day.
Quadressence: Hello and welcome. Please do read through the game so far and give us all your reads on the currently living players.
Onyxjew994: Reading back through your posts, it seems like you haven't been heavily invested in scumhunting. I see you ask a question here, a question there, and even your vote on FD just looked like a pressure vote that stayed on until day end. While I certainly saw The Soldier as pretty solid town, your actions (or lack thereof) have been deteriorating that feeling. Give me your top two scumpicks and why they're at the top.
IronyOwl: Since we've had a fair number of replacements, have you seen any "before and after" differences that stood out to you?
Also, you were voting NQT D1. You've certainly had a bit of discourse with him on D2, and have pointed out a number of noteworthy things (town cheerleading, false dichotomy, logic on FD vote) so far, so do you think he's scum? If so, why aren't you voting him now?
Spaghetti7: What do you think the odds are that FD was bussed? Do you think there's any good reason to believe so? Any good reason to not believe so?
Post by: Teneb on March 15, 2013, 11:31:27 am
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 15, 2013, 11:43:20 am
I'll do a complete read-through, see if anything sticks out to me.
My mafia experience: I've never played forum mafia before, but I have read a bunch of the recent games. I've also played some RL mafia, but that's completely different from what's here(the lynches are basically random).
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 15, 2013, 01:35:04 pm
My reads:
The Soldier/Onyxjew: Pretty strong town, mostly because of The Soldier. At the beginning of the game he was putting quite a bit of pressure on Remuthra, drawing attention to his scumslips. Correct me if this is WIFOM, but I doubt scum would put such large pressure on their buddy so near the beginning(The game had been going on for less than a day).
Borno/Quadressence: Null. Couldn't really get a read on Borno, and Quadressence hasn't posted yet.
NQT: Null leaning scum. Admittedly, he was on FD's lynch, but in another game he recently said he was "experimenting". Perhaps now he's experimenting with bussing?
Spaghetti7: Null leaning town. Had some strange answers to RVS questions. There was a lot of miscommunication around them. Was pressured a lot by FD in post #240. Being the only non-IC that hasn't been replaced, he has had a lot more chance to drop consistent scum-tells, but I haven't seen to much of that.
Shakerag: Null leaning scum. Hasn't done a whole lot apart from ICing, and occasionally gave weak reasoning(see more below). I also somewhat agree with NQT's suspicions of both IC's, even if I find him suspicious. Didn't vote - is this scummy?
IronyOwl: Null leaning scum. Also hasn't done much, although he admitted he's not really able to be active. Passively says "I'm suspicious of everyone"(post 351), and isn't exerting a huge amount of pressure on anybody.
Shakerag:
Doing a re-read myself, but notquitethere *is* a bit suspicious for the whole "rah rah I'm town go town" thing as IronyOwl noted.This reasoning seems a bit weak for an IC. I realize it's just a FoS, but still, I don't see stating yourself as town as a scumtell.
Not enough time, more questions and such later.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 15, 2013, 02:39:09 pm
Quadressence: What kind of experience, if any, have you had in Mafia?
NQT: What do you think of my idea that you are experimenting in bussing?
Shakerag: Why didn't you vote?
IronyOwl: Sort of an RVS question but quite relevant in "Extension Mafia". Say someone you had a strong town read on was replaced by someone who you felt was acting quite scummy. What would be your total read on them?
Onyxjew:
NWT Why do you keep mentioning that you are Town?Do you think saying you're town is a scumtell?
Post by: Quadressence on March 15, 2013, 03:35:23 pm
Quadressence: Hello and welcome. Please do read through the game so far and give us all your reads on the currently living players.*The sleuthette enters stage left, sporting a checkered cap and coat and a rather unwieldy magnifying glass. She pulls out a list she had tucked into her pocket and reads off the names.*
TheWetSheep
Onyxjew994
Quadressence
notquitethere
Spaghetti7
Shakerag
IronyOwl
*The sleuthette pulls out her tape recorder and begins talking.*
As I review the evidence and reread yesterday's transcripts, I cannot help but wonder why I have this burden (Atlas, I think I understand!) as solving this case, if I can call it that, falls short of my ever-reaching prowess and godlike skills. Instead, dear diary, let me recant to you a truly outstanding individual (Yes diary, OUTSTANDING!)
notquitethere, as he calls himself.
*She pauses, re-examining the evidence, and then continues.*
For some time, I had been unsure. He had been quiet, lurked in the background, made no moves. Quite the quandary why I quickly quip that his quirks are queer.
*The sleuthette points a finger toward the suspect.*
Quit your quest! But, a query, a quiz, and mayhaps a qualm to quell, to quench, my quill.
Notquitethere! Explain your vote on Flying Dice! Of course, you think, 'But that is the enemy, surely, you jest!' On the con(trary), I suggest that it be an elaborate ruse, a masquerade! You intend to lynch your partner and enjoy town status. Adequate, but you explained your vote too well, too much, to have it go unnoticed.
There's more! This morning, you exempt yourself from suspicion not on the grounds that you believe yourself to be innocent, but that there would be no way for scum to bus themselves. Another nail in the coffin for you, as there can be no way for you to prove this except by being scum, which would then make it grounds for a lie.
*The sleuthette smiles, her eyes sparkling, and puts the magnifying glass to her eye, investigating notquitethere.*
You indirectly compliment the scum team when you comment on the dead cop, and also cheer the town on, both I find rather unappealing and incredibly suspicious.
And then, I quote
I- I think we've got it!this squib. So nervous, but for what?
*The sleuthette turns and begins pacing.*
For now, though, even if I find you suspicious, I must say your case is of quality, and therefore it must be examined.
Worth noting is that IronyOwl indirectly disputes the bussing debacle, instead of dissecting it directly. Defensive, really, inducing no decent discussion. I deduce that he intends to redirect without provoking notquitethere, and the best way to do that would be to simply not vote him.
Quadressentially, he'll have to vote notquitethere eventually. It's merely a matter of time, unless he can distract himself elsewhere (I, of course, expect myself!)
*The sleuthette spins on her feet.*
IronyOwl.
I was offering supporting reasons, as I know what counts as a burden of proof for myself may not count as such for other. As it happens, I was absolutely correct.Ah, but we don't know that, do we? If I'd said that Remuthra's name started with an R, and R was pretty close to S, and S stood for scum, I would have been "absolutely correct" also.
For that matter, we still don't know how well your theory's going to hold up for the other scum, to say nothing of how correct those supporting reasons are/will be. If your theory was completely correct we'd just be lynching whoever's had the second most votes and be done with it, wouldn't we?
[/quote]
You seem skeptical of his supporting case, so somehow you seem to suggest that any case involving nonsense would be equivalent. But, I disagree. Sure, the case was overloaded, but that did not make the case wrong. Instead, you'd want to argue bussing, but you're not. You're saying the case could not have been correct, but a scum would indeed have a correct case! (AHA!)
Perhaps, you can try again, and we'll see how it goes.
*The sleuthette tucks away her magnifying glass.*
Quadressence: What kind of experience, if any, have you had in Mafia?I once pretended to be a Mafia boss, where I broke everyone's legs that owed me money. My friends were none too pleased about it, but we have made it an inside joke, especially when lending money. As for the core game mechanics here, I once played an advanced version of Clue as Miss Scarlett, in which I ruthlessly gunned down my fellow players before dueling to the death with Colonel Mustard with swords. In the end, I was skewered, though we found out later that I had killed the true murderer (Mr. Green) on accident while he was talking to his wife. >:3 Kekeke
Aaaaaaand, that was a lot. :X
Post by: Shakerag on March 15, 2013, 03:48:36 pm
The Soldier/Onyxjew: Pretty strong town, mostly because of The Soldier. At the beginning of the game he was putting quite a bit of pressure on Remuthra, drawing attention to his scumslips. Correct me if this is WIFOM, but I doubt scum would put such large pressure on their buddy so near the beginning(The game had been going on for less than a day).[Yes, that's WIFOM. Because then scum *could* put pressure on thier buddy so near the beginning, and then you wonder if they're doing that because you're expecting them not to do that and so on and so forth. As a side note, in practice, such a thing is highly unlikely in a BM, but stranger things have happened. But either way, you can't rule out the possibility.]
Shakerag: Null leaning scum. Hasn't done a whole lot apart from ICing, and occasionally gave weak reasoning(see more below). I also somewhat agree with NQT's suspicions of both IC's, even if I find him suspicious. Didn't vote - is this scummy?[Answering in a general way, is someone scummy for not voting? I'd say that depends. If a player is drilling at someone else and calling them scum up and down and doesn't vote, that's a bit odd. Likewise, if someone -never- votes, that's cause for concern as well. Do the circumstances look odd about the person not voting? Is there indication the person should be voting? Always try to look for reasons for things.]
Shakerag:And who says you need solid reasoning for a suspicion? That aside, stating yourself as town isn't a scumtell. Doing it repeatedly and in a "hey guys look at me I'm so town I shit vanilla" way ... it can make you look like you're more concerned about portraying a town image over finding scum.Doing a re-read myself, but notquitethere *is* a bit suspicious for the whole "rah rah I'm town go town" thing as IronyOwl noted.This reasoning seems a bit weak for an IC. I realize it's just a FoS, but still, I don't see stating yourself as town as a scumtell.
Shakerag: Why didn't you vote?Wasn't convinced that FD was scum (at the time, obviously). Voting for CF or NQT would have made a tie, which is a Bad Thing. Voting for anyone else wouldn't have made a difference. Also, a rather hearty dollop of "being too busy to Mafia".
Quadressence: Okay, so you're voting IronyOwl for what reason(s) exactly?
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 15, 2013, 03:51:57 pm
Onyxjew994: Reading back through your posts, it seems like you haven't been heavily invested in scumhunting. I see you ask a question here, a question there, and even your vote on FD just looked like a pressure vote that stayed on until day end. While I certainly saw The Soldier as pretty solid town, your actions (or lack thereof) have been deteriorating that feeling. Give me your top two scumpicks and why they're at the top.I've been rather inactive because of a certain RL tonnage increase. Ever had life just suddenly dump a set of concrete walls around you in every direction? Or, with less metaphor, a large number of totally unconnected projects that just happen to be assigned at the same time and are due in roughly the same timeframe? Yes. That one. I'll be trying to do a bit more this weekend. Starting now, actually.
Top
Spoiler: Prelude (click to show/hide)
Shakerag
-Empty for now, filling later-
IronyOwl
-Empty for now, filling later-
NotQuiteThere
-Empty for now, filling later-
Sorry about not giving anything more substantial than my suspicions at the moment, but I am pressed for time. I have a D&D game to attend within the hour. And before I am riddled with "Oh my, three wonderful choices and I only have one vote." sarcasm, I will be back with a case. Save your pithy commentary for the debate floor.
TheWetSheep
Onyxjew:It is more of a Null-leaning scum tell. By the light of the moon I hate this vocabulary. It's practically a second damn language with all its WIFOM, busing, and LYLO... I digress, it is a scum-ish-tell because why would a townie blatantly call themselves town? They have better and more important duties than cementing their place as town, namely, eroding that exact same masking foundation from all others. Or, with less flowery language, scumhunting. Defense is important, but you can see I am fully capable of defending myself without even once calling myself town throughout this entire thread. Calling me town is everyone else's job, mine is to find the last scum.NWT Why do you keep mentioning that you are Town?Do you think saying you're town is a scumtell?
-snip-My, that was quite the opening statement you have there. I think you'll do just fine here, just fine. But I would like you to answer TheWetSheep's question. Or, as could be the case, clarify. I didn't really understand your meaning in that puddle of RP at the bottom of your post. You made a literal interpretation joke, possibly bathos, and a reference to a game similar to Mafia but never actually mentioned experience in Mafia. Care to elaborate?
Post by: Tiruin on March 15, 2013, 04:06:26 pm
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 15, 2013, 04:41:37 pm
OK, I'll leave it at "it's likely to be a town-tell", especially since this was The Soldier's first game.The Soldier/Onyxjew: Pretty strong town, mostly because of The Soldier. At the beginning of the game he was putting quite a bit of pressure on Remuthra, drawing attention to his scumslips. Correct me if this is WIFOM, but I doubt scum would put such large pressure on their buddy so near the beginning(The game had been going on for less than a day).[Yes, that's WIFOM. Because then scum *could* put pressure on thier buddy so near the beginning, and then you wonder if they're doing that because you're expecting them not to do that and so on and so forth. As a side note, in practice, such a thing is highly unlikely in a BM, but stranger things have happened. But either way, you can't rule out the possibility.]
Quadressence: Why did you outline a whole bunch of reasons for suspicion of NQT, then one reason for suspicion of Shakerag, then vote Shakerag? It seems from your post you're more suspicious of NQT. Also, please give a list of every player, along with reads.
Post by: Quadressence on March 15, 2013, 05:06:02 pm
Quadressence: Okay, so you're voting IronyOwl for what reason(s) exactly?*The sleuthette closes her eyes, extending a shushing finger to Shakerag.*
Essentially, as an IC, I expect more from him. If I implore IronyOwl to actually act like he needs to do something instead of backing away, he can and will do so. Instead, he is trying to redirect notquitethere without scumhunting. There should be no possible need to play passively provided IronyOwl were town.
Quadressence: Why did you outline a whole bunch of reasons for suspicion of NQT, then one reason for suspicion of Shakerag, then vote Shakerag? It seems from your post you're more suspicious of NQT. Also, please give a list of every player, along with reads.*A cellphone rings, playing The Girl from Ipanema. The sleuthette answers.*
"Uh huh. Gotcha."
*She hangs up.*
IronyOwl, not Shakerag. notquitethere was who I found suspicious, until I came upon IronyOwl's quarrel with him who piqued my interests. I also read through notquitethere's arguments, to which I agreed, and reasoned that if I found IronyOwl to be equally suspicious to quaint notquitethere, I qualify that as quite quirky, and assumed a town IC would not act so queer.
As for my reads on everyone else, what would you do if I didn't answer? :1
Post by: Shakerag on March 15, 2013, 05:23:02 pm
Ever had life just suddenly dump a set of concrete walls around you in every direction?You have no idea. [If you're busy, we understand. Do just keep us informed that you're unable to make time, rather than lurking like a scumbag if you will ;)]
As for my reads on everyone else, what would you do if I didn't answer? :1As a player? I'd want to lynch you for being question-dodging scum. As an IC? I'd want to liberally apply the business end of a shovel to your temples because it looks like you're too lazy to read through the game you're replacing into and get a good feel for the other players you're playing with.
Of course, that's only if you didn't answer.
[And I'm out for the weekend again, kids. Post if you can. See you on Monday.]
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 15, 2013, 05:39:08 pm
As for my reads on everyone else, what would you do if I didn't answer? :1
I'd think you were unhelpful town at best and obvious scum at worst. I realize this is your first game, but having everyone's list of reads is vital to learning who is scum. The only team who benefits from withholding information of that type is scum.
Post by: Quadressence on March 15, 2013, 06:11:42 pm
*The sleuthette smirks.*As for my reads on everyone else, what would you do if I didn't answer? :1As a player? I'd want to lynch you for being question-dodging scum. As an IC? I'd want to liberally apply the business end of a shovel to your temples because it looks like you're too lazy to read through the game you're replacing into and get a good feel for the other players you're playing with.
Of course, that's only if you didn't answer.
I can read through the game and not give you my reads at the same time. If anything, you're the lazy one. You didn't point out how that would make me scum. You only said that it'd make me lazy for not reading, which I did, so it doesn't, and that being lazy would somehow make me scum, which is pretty unspecific. Though, that itself doesn't make sense, since scum are hardly lazy, given they need to keep tangled webs woven in their heads. Lazy scum would simply lurk. Lazy lurkers, then, would all be scum.
Beside the fact that you made an impossible comparison (I can't be obvious scum at worst, since if I were obvious, I wouldn't be town at best.), explain how you learn scum from having my list of reads. You say it does, but not why, not how. I don't think you even know. And to conform to some modus operandi without sufficient reason is lazy.As for my reads on everyone else, what would you do if I didn't answer? :1
I'd think you were unhelpful town at best and obvious scum at worst. I realize this is your first game, but having everyone's list of reads is vital to learning who is scum. The only team who benefits from withholding information of that type is scum.
*Fire glows in her eyes.*
Anyone else want some?
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 15, 2013, 06:39:20 pm
It's not laziness, I just assumed you'd be able to realize how having everybody's opinions on everybody else is important. Here's how:Beside the fact that you made an impossible comparison (I can't be obvious scum at worst, since if I were obvious, I wouldn't be town at best.), explain how you learn scum from having my list of reads. You say it does, but not why, not how. I don't think you even know. And to conform to some modus operandi without sufficient reason is lazy.As for my reads on everyone else, what would you do if I didn't answer? :1
I'd think you were unhelpful town at best and obvious scum at worst. I realize this is your first game, but having everyone's list of reads is vital to learning who is scum. The only team who benefits from withholding information of that type is scum.
1. We can critique each other for better overall reads. If I think somebody is scum for an invalid reason, but don't share my reasons, nobody can correct me, and I'll go on suspecting that person.
2. It's helpful to you so that, when you eventually vote someone, we don't accuse you of voting without reason.
3. It's helpful to us because you can point out scummy/towny things we miss.
4. If you are scum, there's more chance to find a scumslip, since scum know the alignment of everyone and may therefore give something away in their reads.
5. Town benefit from having as much information and opinion as possible out there. As said above, only scum would want to withhold this kind of information.
Also, I apologize for the logical error in my comparison, but does it have any effect on my argument?
Post by: Captain Ford on March 15, 2013, 07:07:42 pm
*The sleuthette enters stage left, sporting a checkered cap and coat and a rather unwieldy magnifying glass. She pulls out a list she had tucked into her pocket and reads off the names.*Oh my god, a roleplayer.
AWESOME.
*returns to being dead*
Post by: Quadressence on March 15, 2013, 08:23:11 pm
Quadressence:*The sleuthette pulls out a pair of glasses and puts them on. She pushes them up with her index finger.*It's not laziness, I just assumed you'd be able to realize how having everybody's opinions on everybody else is important. Here's how:Beside the fact that you made an impossible comparison (I can't be obvious scum at worst, since if I were obvious, I wouldn't be town at best.), explain how you learn scum from having my list of reads. You say it does, but not why, not how. I don't think you even know. And to conform to some modus operandi without sufficient reason is lazy.As for my reads on everyone else, what would you do if I didn't answer? :1
I'd think you were unhelpful town at best and obvious scum at worst. I realize this is your first game, but having everyone's list of reads is vital to learning who is scum. The only team who benefits from withholding information of that type is scum.
1. We can critique each other for better overall reads. If I think somebody is scum for an invalid reason, but don't share my reasons, nobody can correct me, and I'll go on suspecting that person.
2. It's helpful to you so that, when you eventually vote someone, we don't accuse you of voting without reason.
3. It's helpful to us because you can point out scummy/towny things we miss.
4. If you are scum, there's more chance to find a scumslip, since scum know the alignment of everyone and may therefore give something away in their reads.
5. Town benefit from having as much information and opinion as possible out there. As said above, only scum would want to withhold this kind of information.
Also, I apologize for the logical error in my comparison, but does it have any effect on my argument?
No. That's why I said beside. Now, beside that, let's continue.
While I understand where you are coming from, your arguments are flawed in that anything I say can be used against me. Hello! We're on a forum! This list is merely one way with which to withdraw information. I suggest that we switch your statements to something slightly simpler: I do not want to go along with the group's preferred method of getting information.
*She crosses her legs.*
And why should I? Because we are groomed to be sheep for the shepherd? Do you want me on all fours, baaing? I'm not a whore.
Instead, I suggest a blossoming. *She pulls a bouquet a flowers from her sleeves.* A transition. *She snaps her fingers, suddenly dressed as a magician.* Magic! *She pulls a nickel out from behind TheWetSheep's ear.* Change.
*She pulls out a wand and waves it around a bit.*
I'm not suggesting anarchy, insanity, lawlessness. Simply... compliance. Now, this is a rant, and I've accomplished nothing by explaining, so I'll get back on topic.
*She snaps her fingers, returning to her original outfit.*
I have no information at this time that I wish to divulge. None of it is of any use to anyone but me, because I write in scribbles.
*She takes off her glasses and starts cleaning them.*
Right now, I find IronyOwl to be suspicious and eagerly await his reply. I also find notquitethere to be suspicious, but to a lesser degree than IronyOwl. I believe I can try to be more specific as to why on each of them, but I might begin mincing words, so you'll have to excuse me if I do.
IronyOwl is an IC, meaning he should be held at a higher standard than those that are not IC. To this matter, I find his handling of being accused by notquitethere to be unsatisfactory. He has not responded well, and is simply waiting to redirect notquitethere's attention, while also making snide remarks toward notquitethere. He seems to think he can push off having to accuse notquitethere if he can push him away toward someone else, or simply wait for him to switch. Looking at interactions from the past day showed little interaction between IronyOwl and Flying Dice/Reth...Remura(?) in an attempt to distance.
*The sleuthette takes a deep breath.*
That seems pretty good for now.
Post by: Tiruin on March 15, 2013, 10:00:26 pm
Hey, I was like that and you were fine with it :/*The sleuthette enters stage left, sporting a checkered cap and coat and a rather unwieldy magnifying glass. She pulls out a list she had tucked into her pocket and reads off the names.*Oh my god, a roleplayer.
AWESOME.
*returns to being dead*
{I mean, judging from discernment, there's nothing wrong in analyzing her posts except for the added imagination aspect :P}
*returns to the peanut gallery*
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 16, 2013, 09:45:27 am
-snip-I'm going to take all the fluff out of your post and summarize it. You are saying(correct me if I'm wrong):
"No, I'm not going to give you my reads because they could be used against me. I'm not going to follow the typical method of getting information. I propose a different method."
And then you go on to giving your read on IronyOwl(thank you for that, by the way). Now, apart from the fact that you say you won't give any reads but then do, there are several problems with this:
No, I'm not going to give you my reads because they could be used against me... This is why everybody gives them, so we can decide who is the most scummy.
I'm not going to follow the typical method of getting information... Alright, this is fine. But next:
I propose a different method... This would be great if you actually gave us your method. Instead, you spout a number of synonyms for change, then say you've accomplished nothing but explaining. I'm not sure what you explained, but it certainly wasn't your method.
Do you not understand? Town are on a team. Please try to help your team(if you are town) by giving us your opinions. The only valid reason I see for withholding reads is so that you don't get Mafiakilled if you are suspicious of scum.
Also, you didn't go into detail about why you suspect NQT.
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Post by: Quadressence on March 16, 2013, 01:53:54 pm
Quadressence:*The sleuthette raises her eyebrow in confusion.*-snip-I'm going to take all the fluff out of your post and summarize it. You are saying(correct me if I'm wrong):
"No, I'm not going to give you my reads because they could be used against me. I'm not going to follow the typical method of getting information. I propose a different method."
And then you go on to giving your read on IronyOwl(thank you for that, by the way). Now, apart from the fact that you say you won't give any reads but then do, there are several problems with this:
No, I'm not going to give you my reads because they could be used against me... This is why everybody gives them, so we can decide who is the most scummy.
I'm not going to follow the typical method of getting information... Alright, this is fine. But next:
I propose a different method... This would be great if you actually gave us your method. Instead, you spout a number of synonyms for change, then say you've accomplished nothing but explaining. I'm not sure what you explained, but it certainly wasn't your method.
Do you not understand? Town are on a team. Please try to help your team(if you are town) by giving us your opinions. The only valid reason I see for withholding reads is so that you don't get Mafiakilled if you are suspicious of scum.
Also, you didn't go into detail about why you suspect NQT.Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Perhaps you and I are having two different conversations. I refuse to give my reads on everyone so that they can't be used against anyone else. My reads will change and evolve, and giving my reads on everyone or even anyone is pointless until I deem otherwise.
*She stands up.*
In fact, you completely missed the point. The point is that everything you say or do can be used against you. The fact that I refuse to give my reads can be used against me. The fact that I am speaking right now can be used against me. Everything can be used against me. Are you suggesting that there is only one way to obtain information?
*She begins pacing back and forth.*
There are a multitude of ways to get information. The one you proposed isn't effective for me. I gave you what WAS effective, and that was my read on IronyOwl, which might have been lacking. My read on notquitethere was already given, and there's no need to continue with it (I feel myself talking to a wall.)
I'm not going to follow the typical method of information gathering, nor shall I let you gather information from me in the typical method. I already told you that I shall not be a sheep. *She snaps her fingers, suddenly dressed in a fluffy white outfit with a bell around her neck.* Baa? No thanks. *Her outfit vanishes, replaced with her old one.*
Learn, try, see, do. I never proposed a different method of gathering information other than what we're already supposed to do. I did propose a different method of thinking. One without blind faith in the system, without following the leader, without mindlessness!
*She turns are points back.*
Do you not understand? I have given all the information I deemed relevant, in an effort to help my team. Do you not see that everything you are saying right now can be used against you? Every sentence, every word, every letter can be used against you. This is the goal. Analysis.
*She pulls out her magnifying glass, bringing it further and closer to her face almost at random.*
A robot can analyze. I'm not a robot. I have given everything I deemed noteworthy. Should more appear, I'll gladly give you that.
As it is noteworthy, I do not think you are scum.
*She tucks the magnifying glass away.*
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 16, 2013, 02:28:51 pm
Spaghetti:My voting analysis was to judge who was likely to be scum. Then, having thought NQT was the worst culprit, I dug in to their post which I thought didn't help things for them at all.Alright, nice job town. Now I've had a quick look at Remu/Flying Dice's posts and actions, and I've come up with the following:This seems kind of odd. Your analysis looked like it was essentially focused on votes, but then your conclusion is based on vote timing and trying to look town.
Damn, man, you're looking a little scummy too. You flipped the vote to lynch R/FD an hour before the deadline. Whether that's luck, or a scum trying to look town I can't tell. R/FD also only ever placed a pressure vote on your predeccesor, never anything strong minded. Now, this isn't much, put your post after the deadline rings alarm bells. It seems to be someone trying so hard to look town, that they look scum.
I wan't sure whether it was actually a question that he wanted an answer for, as oppose to an attempt to draw us across to his side, having already assembled a case. If you're interested, then I do think the case against you looks quite damning, and you're my next target.This does seem to be dodging his question, though. Why is that?Onyx, Spaghetti, what do you think of my case against IronyOwl? Or should we be more suspicious of Shakerag?Again, stop trying to make friends. Just because you voted scum, doesn't mean you're not scum. And same for us.
Alright. Looked that bit up and that did seem a bit try-hard-townie.Oh, and IronyOwl, why were you voting for NQT at the time of the lynch?Flipflopping on borno, looking like he was trying to look very townlike/wriggle out of a lynch, and maybe buddy Ford. Mainly it was that "gee Ford lucky thing I didn't vote you just now or I'd totally have lynched you" part, as I recall.
SpaghettiI voted for who I thought was scum, and I stick by that. And while I do agree that bussing seems unlikely at an early stage of BM, it's still possible. My suspicions are especially raised toward this possibility if someone starts saying how incredibly unlikely it is to happen.-blah-Well, I'm telling you now that scum not-bussing is much more likely at this stage than scum-bussing. Later facts might emerge that swing the odds, but right now I'm pretty confident that Ironyowl and Shakerag are our best bets. Also, given that others aren't voting, you nearly caused a no-lynch. Surely that wasn't intentional?
Spaghetti7: What do you think the odds are that FD was bussed? Do you think there's any good reason to believe so? Any good reason to not believe so?I think that they're small, but certainly not impossible. My reason to believe so would be NQT's quick vote on FD then quickly following up with "They wouldn't possibly bus now, would they?". However, I do agree that it is unlikely, but have no incredibly strong evidence other than it is a reasonably advanced tactic.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 16, 2013, 02:54:39 pm
Bah. Sorry about the confusion. It's hard for me to sift through all your role-playing to find what you're actually trying to say though. Please keep in mind that verbosity does not win arguments.
Perhaps you and I are having two different conversations. I refuse to give my reads on everyone so that they can't be used against anyone else. My reads will change and evolve, and giving my reads on everyone or even anyone is pointless until I deem otherwise.The bolded part: Isn't this the point of posting reads? You don't post them to convince yourself. You'll never lynch anybody by yourself. If you think somebody is scummy you have to give your evidence and convince people.
Quote
In fact, you completely missed the point. The point is that everything you say or do can be used against you. The fact that I refuse to give my reads can be used against me. The fact that I am speaking right now can be used against me. Everything can be used against me. Are you suggesting that there is only one way to obtain information?I didn't miss this point. My question is, Why are you so concerned about revealing something scummy in your reads?
Quote
My read on notquitethere was already given, and there's no need to continue with it (I feel myself talking to a wall.)Yeah, sorry, I missed that.
Quote
I'm not going to follow the typical method of information gathering, nor shall I let you gather information from me in the typical method.
Quote
Learn, try, see, do. I never proposed a different method of gathering information other than what we're already supposed to do. I did propose a different method of thinking. One without blind faith in the system, without following the leader, without mindlessness!But still you haven't attempted to do any scumhunting. For that matter, you still didn't explain your different method, you merely described it as "One without blind faith in the system, without following the leader, without mindlessness!"
Quote
As it is noteworthy, I do not think you are scum.Good. To be honest, I don't think you are scum either. I do think you are being unhelpful to the town, though. I assume you haven't read any other games here?
Spaghetti:
Now that she's started posting, what do you think of Quadressence?
Post by: Quadressence on March 16, 2013, 07:20:25 pm
My post's not verbose, it's quite curtailed, and I can't forsake the dance. Each step, each move, is important for the experience.
*The sleuthette dances around a bit.*
I have pointed out what needed to be pointed out. IronyOwl and notquitethere are suspicious. I do not wish to point out anyone else as suspicious or not suspicious, mostly because I do not need to.
*The sleuthette pulls out a chalkboard and begins writing.*
I have listed my case for IronyOwl. I did that without his list of suspicions. It is doable to find suspects without this list that you seem to insist upon. Listlessness whisks this miss to the Abyss?
I think not.
As for games, I have read a fair amount of them. A sufficient number of them. A great number, an adequate number, a plentiful, a spectacular, ridiculous, terrific, magnificent number of them.
*She smiles, her eyes narrowing.*
Do you find me ignorant? Stupid? Unknowledgeable? Dumb?
*She pauses, letting it sink in.*
Do you think the shoe might be on the other foot?
Post by: notquitethere on March 16, 2013, 08:53:22 pm
Good to have you both on board Sheep and Quad!
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 17, 2013, 02:46:05 am
Spaghetti:Odd. Aside from being rather over dramatic and fluffy in their posts, I would say it's a pretty much null. Seems to be town through good argument and decent scum hunting, but then makes very weird decisions about not releasing reads.
Now that she's started posting, what do you think of Quadressence?
Quadressence, the town works as a team. We are all trying to find scum together, therefore do you not agree it follows that they who withdraws their list of reads is scum?
Post by: Tiruin on March 17, 2013, 04:25:04 am
Ugh. The internet ate my long post in reply to everyone. I'm going to get some sleep and retry this tomorrow.Lazarus add-on for Firefox users :P
Or just type it all out and hit the 'back' option on your browser if the internet eats your long post. That, or use the History > Library to find the url of what you were 'Post Reply''ing to to find the text back.
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Good to have you both on board Sheep and Quad!
Post by: Quadressence on March 17, 2013, 08:39:45 am
Quadressence, the town works as a team. We are all trying to find scum together, therefore do you not agree it follows that they who withdraws their list of reads is scum?*The sleuthette takes off her hat and opens her eyes really big.*
Well, gosh mister. When you put it like that, there's almost a 100% chance that only scum would do that and nobody else for any reason ever.
*She stops mocking him and replaces the hat.*
Why would I agree with that? It's not true. I didn't withhold all of my reads either. I simply gave the ones that mattered. I have not given up finding scum, as can be told by my reasoning for suspecting IronyOwl, so how can you assume that not listing my reads on everyone is suspicious? No one has given me a reason other than everyone else did it.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 17, 2013, 01:41:36 pm
The reason was, you were asked. Generally when one is asked a question in Mafia, you answer. No being clever or dodging it, because it will look scummy.Quadressence, the town works as a team. We are all trying to find scum together, therefore do you not agree it follows that they who withdraws their list of reads is scum?*The sleuthette takes off her hat and opens her eyes really big.*
Well, gosh mister. When you put it like that, there's almost a 100% chance that only scum would do that and nobody else for any reason ever.
*She stops mocking him and replaces the hat.*
Why would I agree with that? It's not true. I didn't withhold all of my reads either. I simply gave the ones that mattered. I have not given up finding scum, as can be told by my reasoning for suspecting IronyOwl, so how can you assume that not listing my reads on everyone is suspicious? No one has given me a reason other than everyone else did it.
That has got me interested though, why are the only ones that matter the ones everyone else is going for? Don't you think you might be getting a bit of tunnel vision?
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 17, 2013, 04:39:12 pm
You missed a fair bit of my post. Please address the following:
QuoteIn fact, you completely missed the point. The point is that everything you say or do can be used against you. The fact that I refuse to give my reads can be used against me. The fact that I am speaking right now can be used against me. Everything can be used against me. Are you suggesting that there is only one way to obtain information?I didn't miss this point. My question is, Why are you so concerned about revealing something scummy in your reads?QuoteLearn, try, see, do. I never proposed a different method of gathering information other than what we're already supposed to do. I did propose a different method of thinking. One without blind faith in the system, without following the leader, without mindlessness!But still you haven't attempted to do any scumhunting. For that matter, you still didn't explain your different method, you merely described it as "One without blind faith in the system, without following the leader, without mindlessness!"
As for games, I have read a fair amount of them. A sufficient number of them. A great number, an adequate number, a plentiful, a spectacular, ridiculous, terrific, magnificent number of them.I assumed you hadn't read any because you didn't mention it when I asked you about your experience with Mafia.
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Do you find me ignorant? Stupid? Unknowledgeable? Dumb?Ignorant? Yes. Stupid, unknowledgeable and dumb, no. I think the best word would be "stubborn".
I have not given up finding scum, as can be told by my reasoning for suspecting IronyOwl.Giving your read on someone does not constitute as finding scum. You need to continue to pressure everyone, not just those who you are suspicious of. Your pressure on IronyOwl can be found in its entirety here:
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You seem skeptical of his supporting case, so somehow you seem to suggest that any case involving nonsense would be equivalent. But, I disagree. Sure, the case was overloaded, but that did not make the case wrong. Instead, you'd want to argue bussing, but you're not. You're saying the case could not have been correct, but a scum would indeed have a correct case! (AHA!)
In the same post, you asked NQT a few other questions, but so far the only other people you've addressed are me and Spaghetti, and then only in answer to pressure from us.
No one has given me a reason other than everyone else did it.*Ahem*
1. We can critique each other for better overall reads. If I think somebody is scum for an invalid reason, but don't share my reasons, nobody can correct me, and I'll go on suspecting that person.
2. It's helpful to you so that, when you eventually vote someone, we don't accuse you of voting without reason.
3. It's helpful to us because you can point out scummy/towny things we miss.
4. If you are scum, there's more chance to find a scumslip, since scum know the alignment of everyone and may therefore give something away in their reads.
5. Town benefit from having as much information and opinion as possible out there. As said above, only scum would want to withhold this kind of information.
Why I think Quad is town: It's unlikely that this kind of playstyle would come from somebody under the guidance of the Scum IC. Although it's possible that she's ignoring UI's advice just as much as she ignores ours.
Onyxjew: You've been given a huge advantage because of replacing in for The Soldier. How are you going to use this?
Everyone: Please post more.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 17, 2013, 10:25:27 pm
irony owlAnd what would we have learned if he was town? Once again, you seem to be advocating lynching whoever looks like they're going to be lynched.Who would we have learned a lot from lynching, then? Or was this a simple, selfish attempt at defense by lack of gain?Someone who a lot of people had beef with. Like, you know, the person who we ended up lynching.
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I like this pressure. I like your gusto in defending yourself in general, actually, even if I disagree with the specifics.I look forward to what your traditional scumhunting eventually results in, then.But again, here it looks like you're trying to weasel out on a technicality. You have less votes than other people, so you're safe. I'm competent enough to avoid votes so I might be scum. It reeks of that attempt to impugn others and hold yourself above suspicion based on technical assumptions rather than genuine scumhunting.You say technical assumptions, I say suggestive evidence. Eh. I'm scum-hunting the traditional way as well. Well, actually at the moment I'm mostly fielding questions. Most of the pressure is on me at the moment, and that's as it should be: I've tried to go town-lead on this and present a case against someone and so i should be under scrutiny.
Onyxjew994, Shakerag, IronyOwl, your collective lack of voting nearly ended in a no-lynch. I know this is 'extension mafia', but could you make your cases and cast your votes before day end this time?I will try, but there's a difference between having someone you suspect and having someone you're confident lynching.
Onyx:
I think it's a false dichotomy and thus scummy. That doesn't mean answering it with "stop buddying me" is acceptable.QuoteTrying to set up a false dichotomy is another scumtell, you know.IronyOwl Care to explain this? You seem to be stating two conflicting opinions in one post.
This does seem to be dodging his question, though. Why is that?
Shakerag:
So is there anyone who would be dangerous to you?Not that I can think of.
IronyOwl: Since we've had a fair number of replacements, have you seen any "before and after" differences that stood out to you?Onyx, as you point out, is a lot less active than The Soldier was, though I hadn't particularly noticed until now. FD was of course completely different from Remuthra. Quadressence is clearly much different than borno, but I'm still attempting to process the meaningful specifics of that, if any.
Also, you were voting NQT D1. You've certainly had a bit of discourse with him on D2, and have pointed out a number of noteworthy things (town cheerleading, false dichotomy, logic on FD vote) so far, so do you think he's scum? If so, why aren't you voting him now?For some reason I'm just not getting a scumvibe off him. I'm not getting a townvibe off him either, but I just don't have that certainty I'd need to want him lynched as is. I'm not sure how much of that is how he's acting and how much is me just not being active enough to get gut feelings off anyone, but for the moment there we are.
TheWetSheep:
IronyOwl: Sort of an RVS question but quite relevant in "Extension Mafia". Say someone you had a strong town read on was replaced by someone who you felt was acting quite scummy. What would be your total read on them?That's a tough one, and I guess it'd partially come down to the manner of scumminess. Laziness or marginally poor logic might be more understandable than active malice or forgetting their own suspicions, for instance.
Ultimately, if the discrepancies persisted I'd probably go with my later reads, since those are the current ones I can work on.
Quadressence:
Notquitethere! Explain your vote on Flying Dice! Of course, you think, 'But that is the enemy, surely, you jest!' On the con(trary), I suggest that it be an elaborate ruse, a masquerade! You intend to lynch your partner and enjoy town status. Adequate, but you explained your vote too well, too much, to have it go unnoticed.Mm? Which is it? Quality case or numerous scummy issues?
There's more! This morning, you exempt yourself from suspicion not on the grounds that you believe yourself to be innocent, but that there would be no way for scum to bus themselves. Another nail in the coffin for you, as there can be no way for you to prove this except by being scum, which would then make it grounds for a lie.
*The sleuthette smiles, her eyes sparkling, and puts the magnifying glass to her eye, investigating notquitethere.*
You indirectly compliment the scum team when you comment on the dead cop, and also cheer the town on, both I find rather unappealing and incredibly suspicious.
And then, I quoteI- I think we've got it!this squib. So nervous, but for what?
*The sleuthette turns and begins pacing.*
For now, though, even if I find you suspicious, I must say your case is of quality, and therefore it must be examined.
Worth noting is that IronyOwl indirectly disputes the bussing debacle, instead of dissecting it directly. Defensive, really, inducing no decent discussion. I deduce that he intends to redirect without provoking notquitethere, and the best way to do that would be to simply not vote him.Is this purely about not voting NQT? I don't understand what you mean by "indirectly." I also don't see any questions.
Quadressentially, he'll have to vote notquitethere eventually. It's merely a matter of time, unless he can distract himself elsewhere (I, of course, expect myself!)
*The sleuthette spins on her feet.*
IronyOwl.
You seem skeptical of his supporting case, so somehow you seem to suggest that any case involving nonsense would be equivalent. But, I disagree. Sure, the case was overloaded, but that did not make the case wrong. Instead, you'd want to argue bussing, but you're not. You're saying the case could not have been correct, but a scum would indeed have a correct case! (AHA!)I don't follow. I'm skeptical of his core case to the point that I don't consider his supporting reasons (ie his attempts at convincing those who don't buy his actual case) particularly worth addressing. I don't see how I "want to argue bussing" but aren't, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that last bit, other than the obvious of "NQT's case totally would have worked if whoever has the most and second most votes is scum."
Perhaps, you can try again, and we'll see how it goes.
I once played an advanced version of Clue as Miss Scarlett, in which I ruthlessly gunned down my fellow players before dueling to the death with Colonel Mustard with swords. In the end, I was skewered, though we found out later that I had killed the true murderer (Mr. Green) on accident while he was talking to his wife. >:3 KekekeThis sounds like an entertaining version of Clue.
While I understand where you are coming from, your arguments are flawed in that anything I say can be used against me. Hello! We're on a forum! This list is merely one way with which to withdraw information. I suggest that we switch your statements to something slightly simpler: I do not want to go along with the group's preferred method of getting information.This is a lot of dodgy, irrelevant fluff that boils down to refusing to answer a question because you don't feel like it. Who doesn't want people peering into their brainmeats? Scum. Town doesn't mind, because they know they're innocent in there, even if they're not particularly useful.
*She crosses her legs.*
And why should I? Because we are groomed to be sheep for the shepherd? Do you want me on all fours, baaing? I'm not a whore.
Instead, I suggest a blossoming. *She pulls a bouquet a flowers from her sleeves.* A transition. *She snaps her fingers, suddenly dressed as a magician.* Magic! *She pulls a nickel out from behind TheWetSheep's ear.* Change.
*She pulls out a wand and waves it around a bit.*
I'm not suggesting anarchy, insanity, lawlessness. Simply... compliance. Now, this is a rant, and I've accomplished nothing by explaining, so I'll get back on topic.
*She snaps her fingers, returning to her original outfit.*
I have no information at this time that I wish to divulge. None of it is of any use to anyone but me, because I write in scribbles.
If you haven't got the horns to prove you're not a wolf otherwise, I suggest you stick with the herd. They're clustered together like that for a reason.
Post by: Quadressence on March 18, 2013, 08:35:27 am
*The sleuthette throws away her detective outfit, revealing a witch's costume underneath. Her black pointed hat nearly blows away, but she catches it in time, planting it squarely on her head. She brushes off her skirt.*The reason was, you were asked. Generally when one is asked a question in Mafia, you answer. No being clever or dodging it, because it will look scummy.Quadressence, the town works as a team. We are all trying to find scum together, therefore do you not agree it follows that they who withdraws their list of reads is scum?*The sleuthette takes off her hat and opens her eyes really big.*
Well, gosh mister. When you put it like that, there's almost a 100% chance that only scum would do that and nobody else for any reason ever.
*She stops mocking him and replaces the hat.*
Why would I agree with that? It's not true. I didn't withhold all of my reads either. I simply gave the ones that mattered. I have not given up finding scum, as can be told by my reasoning for suspecting IronyOwl, so how can you assume that not listing my reads on everyone is suspicious? No one has given me a reason other than everyone else did it.
That has got me interested though, why are the only ones that matter the ones everyone else is going for? Don't you think you might be getting a bit of tunnel vision?
Okay, then, what's your social security and credit card number?
I can't conceive of ceasing cleverness. I was born with such horrible afflictions, diseases, malformations -- Smarts! How dare it!
*The witch moves to sit down, a broom materializing under her. The broom sinks slightly as she sits down before levitating her.*
I have posted who I believed was most suspicious and also least suspicious. Much more than most, who amuse themselves with omnireads, most of which contain less information that I have given. Simply, I won't answer, for several reasons really.
One, I've now resigned myself not to answer it, so I wouldn't feel good about answering it. Two, if I answer it, I'll be indited as being pressured (ICs can confirm, I assure you!) which would only make me look more suspicious. Three, I'll have contributed no additional information to finding scum, as IronyOwl has shown himself to be incredibly suspicious.
As for tunnel vision, of course not. If anything, people will tunnel vision me. I'm very attractive. Who wouldn't want to waste wonders on wandering women? Ridiculously refuses the regular road righteously? Everyone is removing themselves from the game to try to get me to answer a question that has no right answer other than to not answer it. *The witch turns and laughs.* Tunnel vision? *She laughs again.*
I actually answered an amusing amount of this, though perhaps I prefer partially puzzling answers.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Everything I say can reveal something scummy, so the correct answer is I'm not afraid to talk.
It is especially hard to scumhunt when your target has not posted, and you have no reason to go for anyone else.
Experience with Mafia includes situations in which I was involved. I don't consider reading as an involvement.
Stubborn? I can accept that. Ignorant? I cannnot.
I am after IronyOwl here. There is no reason for me to bother with the likes of you two. I am merely answering your questions until you provide me with a reason to suspect you.
Your list was basically "because everyone else did it." Everything I say can be read, nullifying 4. I have given sufficient reasoning for IronyOwl, nullifying 1 and 2. I could change someone's mind about finding someone scummy, countering 3 and 5. There are no good reasons to do it, especially now, where I'll be portrayed as weak for answering.
And I think I'd make a great scum for that very reason, would I not? That's a poor reason to discount me. Do it by content.
IronyOwl (It's not worth quoting your post because it's huge.):
Are you suggesting that you have numerous scummy issues? Aren't you supposed to be experienced, and therefore less likely to lean scummy? You're not countering notquitethere's points. It feels like you're stalling, delaying, until you find something to redirect to, and, as I pointed out, I figured it would be me. "Teehee." You even admit that you're not bothering with his case. But, he has good points. There is a connection between you and Flying Dice. The only reason I can think of to avoid his case is to not draw attention to it.
As for the fluff? Of course. I even admit to it. Let me quote for you, as I seem to be a bit more experienced than you at noticing things.
Now, this is a rant, and I've accomplished nothing by explaining, so I'll get back on topic.
You're already peering at my brainmeats. It's spewed all over my posts. And yet, here you are, saying that you'll have to follow the herd to survive.
*She snaps her fingers, suddenly sporting pointed gray ears and a fluffy tail. Around her hands are paw gloves.*
I mean, who's to say wolves are the bad guys? Maybe you're just afraid of alphas. I don't really enjoy the taste of sheep. Too tasteless, tacky.
Post by: notquitethere on March 18, 2013, 10:52:50 am
Owl
For that matter, we still don't know how well your theory's going to hold up for the other scum, to say nothing of how correct those supporting reasons are/will be. If your theory was completely correct we'd just be lynching whoever's had the second most votes and be done with it, wouldn't we?As I pointed out, my theory isn't a Total Theory of scumhunting, but one principle in tracking guilt. If you're innocent when you're dead, then I think I'll look into the person with the second-most votes.
Quote
But again, this requires that your reasoning be entirely correct, which you don't know, and your analysis only worked because of that luck. If FD had been in his slot from the get-go, your analysis would have failed miserably and we'd have lynched borno or something. If the scum was me and Shakerag or The Soldier and Ford, it never would have worked and your logic would essentially have lynched weak targets that weren't taken out immediately.Sure, that's why it's not the only way of doing things and that's why I'm continuing the pressure on you.
That's the part I don't trust about your method, and I think that's the part you're not getting. It works fine when the scummiest player is scummy scum who hasn't already been traditionally bandwagoned, but fails miserably or is redundant any other time.
Quote
What is it about me and Shakerag that means you can't be scum while we're alive but if we both get lynched, yeah, it could totally be you?If you're both innocent when dead and I'm still alive, then there would be certainly greater room to doubt my sincerity or competency.
Quote
Trying to set up a false dichotomy is another scumtell, you know.At the time there was good reason to suppose that you and Shakerag were the only suspects, so not a false dichotomy at all.
Quote
How so? You're stating right now just how awesome a position it would be for scum, and I've explained several times how WIFOM of this nature works, so what is it? What would have made this such a bad or impractical idea for scum that they'd never do it, even if it's obvious that anyone who did it would get a free pass to the end of the game?But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).
Quote
What I should have said is that if you don't agree with what I'm saying, by all means do your own analysis.I'm not trying to push anyone on my purported towndom, the record speaks for itself and everyone should feel free to make their own mind up about it. Clearly more people need to have their say and more retrospection needs to occur before we make our final decisions for the day. Now the doc is dead, we can only afford two mislynches, so we should obviously choose carefully.The record doesn't speak for itself, it sits there waiting for people to come along and interpret it.
More importantly, why suddenly such a hands-off approach here? First it's obvious, then... well, everyone can make up their own minds, you certainly don't need to tell them how to think. If someone didn't get it or disagreed, would you just let the matter sit?
And what would we have learned if he was town? Once again, you seem to be advocating lynching whoever looks like they're going to be lynched.More like, I'm advocating lynching whoever looks like they should have been lynched but weasled through regardless.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 18, 2013, 11:12:50 am
I'm not going to follow the typical method of information gathering, nor shall I let you gather information from me in the typical method.
Quote
I never proposed a different method of gathering information other than what we're already supposed to do.Hmmm. Do you see the blatant contradiction?
Quote
I did propose a different method of thinking. One without blind faith in the system, without following the leader, without mindlessness!Anyway. Tell us your method. Now.
NQT
Still WIFOM here.QuoteHow so? You're stating right now just how awesome a position it would be for scum, and I've explained several times how WIFOM of this nature works, so what is it? What would have made this such a bad or impractical idea for scum that they'd never do it, even if it's obvious that anyone who did it would get a free pass to the end of the game?But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).
Quote
This seems like a suspicious policy lynch. Is this merely a sign of scumminess or a sign for a definite lynch?And what would we have learned if he was town? Once again, you seem to be advocating lynching whoever looks like they're going to be lynched.More like, I'm advocating lynching whoever looks like they should have been lynched but weasled through regardless.
Post by: Shakerag on March 18, 2013, 11:55:14 am
The point of laziness refers to my opinion of you as a player with me as an IC. I distinctly said you'd be scummy due to question-dodging. As has been stated by others, only scum have something to hide; townies should be forthright in giving information.As a player? I'd want to lynch you for being question-dodging scum. As an IC? I'd want to liberally apply the business end of a shovel to your temples because it looks like you're too lazy to read through the game you're replacing into and get a good feel for the other players you're playing with.I can read through the game and not give you my reads at the same time. If anything, you're the lazy one. You didn't point out how that would make me scum. You only said that it'd make me lazy for not reading, which I did, so it doesn't, and that being lazy would somehow make me scum, which is pretty unspecific. Though, that itself doesn't make sense, since scum are hardly lazy, given they need to keep tangled webs woven in their heads. Lazy scum would simply lurk. Lazy lurkers, then, would all be scum.
[Also, I've seen plenty of non-scum lazy lurkers, and laziness doesn't necessarily mean you're lurking; a player being lazy can just be making half-assed arguments too.]
[So ... let's break this down for educational purposes.Still WIFOM here.QuoteHow so? You're stating right now just how awesome a position it would be for scum, and I've explained several times how WIFOM of this nature works, so what is it? What would have made this such a bad or impractical idea for scum that they'd never do it, even if it's obvious that anyone who did it would get a free pass to the end of the game?But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).
-NQT is trying to argue that whoever voted to lynch scum D1 isn't scum.
-They're not scum, because scum wouldn't have bussed due to people suspecting a bus anyway (and losing half the scumteam).
-If people would suspect a bus regardless of whether a bus happened or not, then that is not a net gain for scum trying to avoid suspicion, so that reason is moot.
-So then scum bussing D1 would seem to be a negative, because now half the team is dead.
-Why would scum intentionally lose half their team D1? This looks like a Very Bad Thing, therefore scum wouldn't do it.
-So if scum *did* bus D1 despite all that ...
-Do you see where this is going?]
Quadressence: So, what I'm basically gathering from your posts, outside of a simmering dislike of magical detectives, is that your scumhunting boils down to ... what? Suspecting and voting someone, asking them a few questions, and largely doing little else while you wait for them to reply? Oh, and waiting for other players to give you reason to suspect them, of course.
I thought sleuths went looking for clues, not waiting for them to drop in their laps.
Extend.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 18, 2013, 12:00:38 pm
Day ends today. I think the votes are as follows:
IronyOwl: 2
NQT: 1
Quadressence: 2
Let's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 18, 2013, 12:28:28 pm
I find IronyOwl and NQT the most suspicious. NQT tries too hard, and from what little there is to analyse about Irony it seems they tried to distance themselves from FD till it became disadvantageous. So, I'm all up for voting Irony if push comes to shove.
Post by: notquitethere on March 18, 2013, 04:58:34 pm
Wet Sheep
NQT: What do you think of my idea that you are experimenting in bussing?Nice theory, but I would only really experiment with a tactic that I thought likely to work. And bussing in this case was not likely to work. (After all, am I not suspected of bussing now?)
Nope. I'm just saying it would have been a poor strategy because: A. It would have made winning harder. B. People think you could have bussed anyway. That Ironyowl has the audacity to day bussing would give me a free pass while not giving me a free pass boggles the mind and reinforces my vote.Still WIFOM here.QuoteHow so? You're stating right now just how awesome a position it would be for scum, and I've explained several times how WIFOM of this nature works, so what is it? What would have made this such a bad or impractical idea for scum that they'd never do it, even if it's obvious that anyone who did it would get a free pass to the end of the game?But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).
Quote
I've gone over the argument earlier. Short version: some people are so scummy that almost everyone suspects them but they don't get lynched because everyone didn't suspect them at the same time. By looking at the vote record you can see who such people may be.Quote from: NQTMore like, I'm advocating lynching whoever looks like they should have been lynched but weasled through regardless.This seems like a suspicious policy lynch. Is this merely a sign of scumminess or a sign for a definite lynch?
Let's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.How about we lynch Owl today and if she's innocent then you can kill me tomorrow. Fair deal?
Quad
Quit your quest! But, a query, a quiz, and mayhaps a qualm to quell, to quench, my quill.Quite.
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Notquitethere! Explain your vote on Flying Dice! Of course, you think, 'But that is the enemy, surely, you jest!' On the con(trary), I suggest that it be an elaborate ruse, a masquerade! You intend to lynch your partner and enjoy town status. Adequate, but you explained your vote too well, too much, to have it go unnoticed.I gave my fullest argument against Flying Dice when I cast my vote. I can't do anything to prove that I didn't bus FD, so by all means continue to suspect me. I can only say that it would have been a pretty rubbish tactic if I did.
There's more! This morning, you exempt yourself from suspicion not on the grounds that you believe yourself to be innocent, but that there would be no way for scum to bus themselves. Another nail in the coffin for you, as there can be no way for you to prove this except by being scum, which would then make it grounds for a lie.
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Hesitancy, not nervousness. I don't always think bold and swooping claims become us.I- I think we've got it!this squib. So nervous, but for what?
Post by: Tiruin on March 18, 2013, 05:01:16 pm
IronyOwl is male :PLet's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.How about we lynch Owl today and if she's innocent then you can kill me tomorrow. Fair deal?
The only female player is Quin.
-cue IC advice later on on this-
Post by: notquitethere on March 18, 2013, 05:12:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hmmm... I need to sleep, but I don't want a no-lynch. I will check back here before the deadline in (just under) three hours. Also, Borno/Quad and Owl are the best candidates for lynching (other than Shakerag), so let's not have any shenanigans here. Oppose Extension.
Post by: Teneb on March 18, 2013, 05:23:30 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 18, 2013, 05:35:34 pm
Onyxjew994(0):
Quadressence(2):IronyOwl, Shakerag
notquitethere(1):Sphagetti7
Sphagetti7(0):
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(2):notquitethere, Quadressence
Not Voting: TheWetSheep, Onyxjew994, Sphagetti7
0 votes for extension (1 for, 1 against)
Day ends at 22:00 BRT today.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 18, 2013, 06:05:49 pm
I'm not sure which IC I'm more suspicious of, but since it's unlikely we'll get a Shakerag lynch, I'll go with IronyOwl. Someone needs to break the tie anyway.
NQT:
Wet SheepHow could you have known what would happen beforehand?NQT: What do you think of my idea that you are experimenting in bussing?Nice theory, but I would only really experiment with a tactic that I thought likely to work. And bussing in this case was not likely to work. (After all, am I not suspected of bussing now?)
Eh. Maybe. I'm not quite certain on anybody, but voting IO to avoid a nolynch. Anyway, I don't like to make promises on who I'll try to lynch.Let's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.How about we lynch Owl today and if she's innocent then you can kill me tomorrow. Fair deal?
OnyxJew: Please come back.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 18, 2013, 06:38:07 pm
How about we lynch Owl today and if she's innocent then you can kill me tomorrow. Fair deal?This is not a good wager for a townie to make. You really feel 2:1 certain on me being scum? Or are you hoping to ride by on "Well I wouldn't have made that wager if I was scum because I'd have known IO was town!" tomorrow?
Hmmm... I need to sleep, but I don't want a no-lynch. I will check back here before the deadline in (just under) three hours. Also, Borno/Quad and Owl are the best candidates for lynching (other than Shakerag), so let's not have any shenanigans here. Oppose Extension.Why the hurry?
Also this one thing:
Okay, then, what's your social security and credit card number?That's not relevant to the game. Your reads are. Feel free to laugh at (and question the motives of) anyone demanding to know what you had for breakfast this morning. For game-related stuff, "Too bad, take what I choose to give you" will impair town's hunting ability and result in you being lynched.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 18, 2013, 06:47:31 pm
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 18, 2013, 06:49:02 pm
Admittedly, this one is part actual suspicion, part annoyance. Quad refuses to share her information and I see little activity, but I'm also just genuinely incensed by his/her attitude and methodology. A good amount of fluff seems to be hiding a total lack of comprehensive analysis or even any action. I think we can all agree on this at the very least, What in the bloody name of Sithis are these Methods?
NQT
Personally, NQT is on this list out of necessity. I am very much eager to see how his 'vote pattern analysis' works with more data than a rather obvious scum, but his actions pretty much guarantee he should be on this list.
You realize this is quickly dropping into a heavy WIFOM spiral, correct? You'd best drop it. This is, was, and most likely will be, WIFOM. Accept it. You will look both less stubborn and less scummy if/when you do.QuoteHow so? You're stating right now just how awesome a position it would be for scum, and I've explained several times how WIFOM of this nature works, so what is it? What would have made this such a bad or impractical idea for scum that they'd never do it, even if it's obvious that anyone who did it would get a free pass to the end of the game?But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).
I'm not even going to dignify this wit─oh, wait. That's my job, right. This is terrible. Your defense is that there are bigger targets in your eyes. That is in no way a good reason for why you aren't scum, or even why others are. Claiming that we should just lynch your targets and then when/if they turn up as Town then we should lynch you is a horrid idea. Especially considering, oh I don't know, the fact that we would all be dead by the time that happened.QuoteWhat is it about me and Shakerag that means you can't be scum while we're alive but if we both get lynched, yeah, it could totally be you?If you're both innocent when dead and I'm still alive, then there would be certainly greater room to doubt my sincerity or competency.
So yeah, I'm a terrible person. I come back after my hiatus with a spiteful vote and some justifications. I'm fully willing to go for it and see how it plays out. Admittedly, if Quad had layed off the fluff and explained these mystical and wondrous methods, I might be a little less aggressive in her case, but the Town is a cohesive unit. We live or die as a team, and while Irony and NQT aren't exactly the most spotless individuals, at least they are trying/pretending to contribute. This is a game about learning, so remember this paragraph Quad. Whether or not you live through this day.
Edit: DAMNIT. Now my vote would mean a no-lynch. Unvote.
Oh, and
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Quadressence on March 18, 2013, 07:05:07 pm
The IC's votes for Quad make me nervous. I'm getting more and more certain that one of them is scum, because I think Quad is an easy target for scum to lynch. She certainly acts it, but I personally don't think she's scummy enough to lynch.You keep flip-flopping. You say I'm not scummy, you say I'm scummy, you say Irony's scummier... You keep switching. That's not good.
I'm not sure which IC I'm more suspicious of, but since it's unlikely we'll get a Shakerag lynch, I'll go with IronyOwl. Someone needs to break the tie anyway.
NQT:Wet SheepHow could you have known what would happen beforehand?NQT: What do you think of my idea that you are experimenting in bussing?Nice theory, but I would only really experiment with a tactic that I thought likely to work. And bussing in this case was not likely to work. (After all, am I not suspected of bussing now?)Eh. Maybe. I'm not quite certain on anybody, but voting IO to avoid a nolynch. Anyway, I don't like to make promises on who I'll try to lynch.Let's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.How about we lynch Owl today and if she's innocent then you can kill me tomorrow. Fair deal?
OnyxJew: Please come back.
I don't want to get a lynch by technicality. I want it to be discussed. I've only had a weekend and a small amount of today to talk. Not nearly enough.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 18, 2013, 07:12:22 pm
I should get a checklist for these things.
Post by: notquitethere on March 18, 2013, 07:18:10 pm
I spent too much of my last few posts answering questions. It'll be all analysis now until a solid case has been made.
Post by: Teneb on March 18, 2013, 07:41:51 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 18, 2013, 10:08:33 pm
Quadressence:
One, I've now resigned myself not to answer it, so I wouldn't feel good about answering it.Meaning what, exactly? You said you wouldn't so now you can't? If you're bound by fey rules of oathbreaking, you'd best not refuse to do things until you're certain you won't need to. Otherwise, what are you saying here?
Two, if I answer it, I'll be indited as being pressured (ICs can confirm, I assure you!) which would only make me look more suspicious.Yielding to pressure is only worse than not yielding to pressure when it looks panicky, or possibly when your actual reasons are so absolutely awful it's better to remain insolently silent for no good reason. As you've failed to explain why asking for your reads is unreasonable (and as far as everyone who's commented is concerned, failed to explain why it's reasonable), this is hopefully not one of those times.
Three, I'll have contributed no additional information to finding scum, as IronyOwl has shown himself to be incredibly suspicious.NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. "X is scummy therefore nothing else matters" is a terrible excuse. It's tunnel vision at best, and scummy, lazy, town-hurting tunneling stonewalling at worst.
Guess which version this is, and then explain why you finding me suspicious invalidates everyone else's curiosity about you.
It is especially hard to scumhunt when your target has not posted, and you have no reason to go for anyone else.What possible reason could this be?
I am after IronyOwl here. There is no reason for me to bother with the likes of you two. I am merely answering your questions until you provide me with a reason to suspect you.Also NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
First of all, this is more of that tunnel vision. You always want to be poking more than one suspect. Not necessarily strongly; some people find they focus (either reading scumtells, applying pressure, or both) better on a lone target. But ignoring everything else and deciding that X is your target and thus you don't care about anything else is essentially wagering the entire game on X being scum, seeing as you're not going to have the slightest clue on anyone else if they're not.
Secondly, waiting for others to provide an excuse to suspect them is lazy, opportunistic, and scummy. It's essentially saying "Well, I don't suspect you guys at the moment, but neither do I have any interest in hunting you to find out. So, I'm just gonna sit here and ignore you UNLESS you give me an excuse, in which case I'll jump onto an easy bandwagon."
Third, you seem to be completely ignoring that sometimes other people interact with you because THEY want to know if YOU'RE scum, and thus whether or not YOU are looking for more suspicions right now is totally irrelevant.
IronyOwl (It's not worth quoting your post because it's huge.):Alright, fair e-
Are you suggesting that you have numerous scummy issues? Aren't you supposed to be experienced, and therefore less likely to lean scummy?...
See, this is the danger in talking flowery and responding in general rather than point by point. I was referring to NQT's case; you may recall, you went on a long tirade about how he had, as I just said, numerous scummy issues, then said his case was "of quality" and must be considered. Which is it, and where did you get that I was referring to myself out of:
Mm? Which is it? Quality case or numerous scummy issues?
You're not countering notquitethere's points. It feels like you're stalling, delaying, until you find something to redirect to, and, as I pointed out, I figured it would be me. "Teehee."What of NQT's points aren't I countering?
Also, you don't really get points for predicting I'm going to vote for you unless you can show it was a scummy thing to do. Otherwise you basically just predicted yourself being scummy (or confrontational, or otherwise liable to attract votes).
You even admit that you're not bothering with his case. But, he has good points. There is a connection between you and Flying Dice. The only reason I can think of to avoid his case is to not draw attention to it.No I don't, and no there isn't. Provide quotes if you'd like to show otherwise. Explain why you're lying if you'd rather not.
You're already peering at my brainmeats. It's spewed all over my posts. And yet, here you are, saying that you'll have to follow the herd to survive.Yes, but I'm not liking what I'm seeing. I could lurk entirely and you'd get some insight into my actions. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be ruinous to me finding scum, ruinous to town figuring out if I was scum, and ruinous to me not getting my ass lynched for a completely avoidable reason.
*She snaps her fingers, suddenly sporting pointed gray ears and a fluffy tail. Around her hands are paw gloves.*
I mean, who's to say wolves are the bad guys? Maybe you're just afraid of alphas. I don't really enjoy the taste of sheep. Too tasteless, tacky.
NQT:
What happened to:
NQT:?Who would we have learned a lot from lynching, then? Or was this a simple, selfish attempt at defense by lack of gain?How does this relate to asking about [what information will be gained by NQT's lynch], though? Does knowing how or checking on whether town will benefit from your lynch make it less likely or more productive or something?Well, I'd hoped that it might make it less likely if they had to actually stop and think about what would be gained from my mislynch. It's hopefully no longer a pressing issue now.
As I pointed out, my theory isn't a Total Theory of scumhunting, but one principle in tracking guilt. If you're innocent when you're dead, then I think I'll look into the person with the second-most votes.Except your current case is based entirely on me having the least vote-interaction with Remuthra/FD, using your presumed success in lynching him as proof of effectiveness. How's that utilizing different methods, why is Shakerag no longer on your hitlist, and how is "I'll give up on it once I've tried it" not a scummy, lazy excuse for why you're doing what you're doing?
Sure, that's why it's not the only way of doing things and that's why I'm continuing the pressure on you.
Considering that you'd be 0/2, yeah, that'd raise some doubt as to your current method. Why is that the breakoff point, though, and how does that justify any of what you're saying currently?QuoteWhat is it about me and Shakerag that means you can't be scum while we're alive but if we both get lynched, yeah, it could totally be you?If you're both innocent when dead and I'm still alive, then there would be certainly greater room to doubt my sincerity or competency.
At the time there was good reason to suppose that you and Shakerag were the only suspects, so not a false dichotomy at all.By the time you made that dichotomy, I'd (and Shakerag'd) already pointed out the problems with it. We hadn't yet had confirmation from DS on the nightkill, but by this point you had two ICs telling you your theory had holes in it, but kept with it anyway.
Why?
But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).This is really not sinking in for you, is it?
I AM 100% CONFIRMED TOWN. YOU CAN TELL I AM 100% CONFIRMED TOWN BECAUSE YOU CURRENTLY SUSPECT ME FOR NOT SUSPECTING REMUTHRA. SCUM WOULD KNOW NOT TO NOT SUSPECT REMUTHRA BECAUSE THEN TOWN MIGHT SUSPECT THEM FOR IT, THUS IT'S SOMETHING ONLY TOWN WOULD DO.
Now your response to this is...?
I spent too much of my last few posts answering questions. It'll be all analysis now until a solid case has been made.So what are you saying here? We're not allowed to hunt you until you've decided who you're going to vote and then sit on impatiently until they're dead?
Spaghetti:
I don't have much time tonight, but I can say this much:I don't recall this at all.
I find IronyOwl and NQT the most suspicious. NQT tries too hard, and from what little there is to analyse about Irony it seems they tried to distance themselves from FD till it became disadvantageous. So, I'm all up for voting Irony if push comes to shove.
Post by: Quadressence on March 19, 2013, 02:10:19 am
Get your tickets to the show, because this is going to need a few Acts to explain. If only you all were slightly less noisy. Turn off your cellphones, and get your snacks. Here we go.
*Act 1. The curtains lift to reveal a young maiden, dressed in a nightgown. She sits upon her bed as the moonlight pours in from her open window.*
Quadressence:No contradiction. You're simply misconstruing things. I never did propose a method. I said that I would use one that didn't involve posting my reads on everyone. I deemed it... Not posting your reads. Why? Mostly because I didn't want to. It was mindlessly following. Like, I know I'm new to this whole thing, but I thought we were here to learn. Not just follow the leader. So, I said to myself, what would the Org do?I'm not going to follow the typical method of information gathering, nor shall I let you gather information from me in the typical method.QuoteI never proposed a different method of gathering information other than what we're already supposed to do.Hmmm. Do you see the blatant contradiction?QuoteI did propose a different method of thinking. One without blind faith in the system, without following the leader, without mindlessness!Anyway. Tell us your method. Now.
You see, that's the thing. These ICs are supposed to teach you how to play, but, honestly, they're just teaching you how they play. Poorly, at that. You'll leave this game thinking you've learned a bit, but really, no one has taught you anything. Very few of you will last to play continuously. And that's fine. It's a necessary evil.
Look at it. The ICs are simply saying I'm lazy scum. Nothing to try to improve my game. What do my actions signify, ICs? Don't you understand?
And yet, I'm certain there's a vast number of players with a similar style to my own. Webadict, ToonyMan, Org, Pandarsenic. Are these newbies supposed to unaware of these styles? To simply ignore them? Because you two do.
But, let's throw that aside for now.
My "method" involves looking at what people say. The content. The meaning. The context. The subtext. The wordplay. The grammar. The structure... And I say to myself, "Would I write that as scum?" And sometimes I say "yes" and sometimes "no" but overall, it helps me feel who's scummier than others. Will I post a list of reads. Mmmm, let me thi--No. Why? Because that's a lot of useless nonsense that can change at the press of an Enter. I give you what's important. What's meaningful. What's happening right now. And here, I'm already called wordy. ::)
The point of laziness refers to my opinion of you as a player with me as an IC. I distinctly said you'd be scummy due to question-dodging. As has been stated by others, only scum have something to hide; townies should be forthright in giving information.Oh, question dodging! You've got a big charge on little ol' me. How often to scum dodge questions now? Like, give me a good estimate. Especially newbie games, if you want to be entirely serious. No, go on. I want an answer.
[Also, I've seen plenty of non-scum lazy lurkers, and laziness doesn't necessarily mean you're lurking; a player being lazy can just be making half-assed arguments too.]
Quadressence: So, what I'm basically gathering from your posts, outside of a simmering dislike of magical detectives, is that your scumhunting boils down to ... what? Suspecting and voting someone, asking them a few questions, and largely doing little else while you wait for them to reply? Oh, and waiting for other players to give you reason to suspect them, of course.
I thought sleuths went looking for clues, not waiting for them to drop in their laps.
Extend.
So, that means my one and only charge is question-dodging. Also, I have to prove a case that doesn't have to be answered by the accused. Oh, right, and you've given me no real reasoning for your votes. I mean, other than offhanded remarks, almost to the tone of sarcasm. I can really feel the expertise you're trying to spread to newbies. Can anyone else?
In fact, I'd say that the newbies are the ones actually teaching. I mean, I've gotten actual tips to help play from them. They even came up with a decent assessment for why I should answer the question. As opposed to the half of one I got from Shakerag. I think IronyOwl might have just repeated that half of a tip somewhere too. ::)
Let's not even forget that I also didn't refuse to give any reads, either.
Let's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.Oh man. What about that last post made me look scummier? I'll have to act as IC for now, I suppose. You don't list any reasons for it. You just say that the post made you think I was scummier.
*The lights dim, and the actress falls into bed. End Act 1.*
Post by: Quadressence on March 19, 2013, 08:48:15 am
I don't have much time tonight, but I can say this much:This is almost exactly what I've posted about IronyOwl and notquitethere. Explain to me how it's taken you this long to only have these suspicions.
I find IronyOwl and NQT the most suspicious. NQT tries too hard, and from what little there is to analyse about Irony it seems they tried to distance themselves from FD till it became disadvantageous. So, I'm all up for voting Irony if push comes to shove.
QuadI actually believe you. Bussing Flying Dice would be a poor strategy. Flying Dice could avoid the scrutiny of Town if he had not been lynched. It only seemed plausible near the end, where you'd gotten extremely wordy to justify your vote. But, I suppose the alternative wouldn't be much better, so I relent.Quit your quest! But, a query, a quiz, and mayhaps a qualm to quell, to quench, my quill.Quite.QuoteNotquitethere! Explain your vote on Flying Dice! Of course, you think, 'But that is the enemy, surely, you jest!' On the con(trary), I suggest that it be an elaborate ruse, a masquerade! You intend to lynch your partner and enjoy town status. Adequate, but you explained your vote too well, too much, to have it go unnoticed.I gave my fullest argument against Flying Dice when I cast my vote. I can't do anything to prove that I didn't bus FD, so by all means continue to suspect me. I can only say that it would have been a pretty rubbish tactic if I did.
There's more! This morning, you exempt yourself from suspicion not on the grounds that you believe yourself to be innocent, but that there would be no way for scum to bus themselves. Another nail in the coffin for you, as there can be no way for you to prove this except by being scum, which would then make it grounds for a lie.QuoteHesitancy, not nervousness. I don't always think bold and swooping claims become us.I- I think we've got it!this squib. So nervous, but for what?
The only female player is Quin.... Come on. Quadressence! Not Quintessence! I'm the fourth element! I suppose that makes me any of earth, air, water, or fire.
Although, if Quintessence were my name, I'd prefer Quint.
The IC's votes for Quad make me nervous. I'm getting more and more certain that one of them is scum, because I think Quad is an easy target for scum to lynch. She certainly acts it, but I personally don't think she's scummy enough to lynch.Seriously? No arguments on why you chose IronyOwl over Shakerag? I'm actually curious if you came up with bussing before I did, because it seems like you have no original arguments. So, how about between IronyOwl and me? You should be able to give arguments for this.
I'm not sure which IC I'm more suspicious of, but since it's unlikely we'll get a Shakerag lynch, I'll go with IronyOwl. Someone needs to break the tie anyway.
NQT:Wet SheepHow could you have known what would happen beforehand?NQT: What do you think of my idea that you are experimenting in bussing?Nice theory, but I would only really experiment with a tactic that I thought likely to work. And bussing in this case was not likely to work. (After all, am I not suspected of bussing now?)Eh. Maybe. I'm not quite certain on anybody, but voting IO to avoid a nolynch. Anyway, I don't like to make promises on who I'll try to lynch.Let's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.How about we lynch Owl today and if she's innocent then you can kill me tomorrow. Fair deal?
OnyxJew: Please come back.
Also this one thing:So, what you're saying is that if I don't do what you say for your implied reason of "or else I'll lynch you," you'll lynch me? Then explain to me how not only is that scummy but also how that makes me scummier than everyone else. If your reason was simply to teach me a lesson, then you've certainly shown us what ICs are truly capable of, because that's literally the only reason I've gotten to answer the question. And I told you, I won't answer the question. So, what are you going to do? Let's see you start actually teaching players how to play.Okay, then, what's your social security and credit card number?That's not relevant to the game. Your reads are. Feel free to laugh at (and question the motives of) anyone demanding to know what you had for breakfast this morning. For game-related stuff, "Too bad, take what I choose to give you" will impair town's hunting ability and result in you being lynched.
Huge amounts of my bad on here. Anyway, disregard earlier picks, I have some new interests. Probably, if I'm remembering my old scumpicks correctly.You're really laying it hard into to me, aren't you, which sounds a lot worse than I meant it.Quad
Admittedly, this one is part actual suspicion, part annoyance. Quad refuses to share her information and I see little activity, but I'm also just genuinely incensed by his/her attitude and methodology. A good amount of fluff seems to be hiding a total lack of comprehensive analysis or even any action. I think we can all agree on this at the very least, What in the bloody name of Sithis are these Methods?
NQT
Personally, NQT is on this list out of necessity. I am very much eager to see how his 'vote pattern analysis' works with more data than a rather obvious scum, but his actions pretty much guarantee he should be on this list.You realize this is quickly dropping into a heavy WIFOM spiral, correct? You'd best drop it. This is, was, and most likely will be, WIFOM. Accept it. You will look both less stubborn and less scummy if/when you do.QuoteHow so? You're stating right now just how awesome a position it would be for scum, and I've explained several times how WIFOM of this nature works, so what is it? What would have made this such a bad or impractical idea for scum that they'd never do it, even if it's obvious that anyone who did it would get a free pass to the end of the game?But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).I'm not even going to dignify this wit─oh, wait. That's my job, right. This is terrible. Your defense is that there are bigger targets in your eyes. That is in no way a good reason for why you aren't scum, or even why others are. Claiming that we should just lynch your targets and then when/if they turn up as Town then we should lynch you is a horrid idea. Especially considering, oh I don't know, the fact that we would all be dead by the time that happened.QuoteWhat is it about me and Shakerag that means you can't be scum while we're alive but if we both get lynched, yeah, it could totally be you?If you're both innocent when dead and I'm still alive, then there would be certainly greater room to doubt my sincerity or competency.
So yeah, I'm a terrible person. I come back after my hiatus with a spiteful vote and some justifications. I'm fully willing to go for it and see how it plays out. Admittedly, if Quad had layed off the fluff and explained these mystical and wondrous methods, I might be a little less aggressive in her case, but the Town is a cohesive unit. We live or die as a team, and while Irony and NQT aren't exactly the most spotless individuals, at least they are trying/pretending to contribute. This is a game about learning, so remember this paragraph Quad. Whether or not you live through this day.
So, I have an attitude (OMG!), an unexplained methodology (Like, whatever!), and the inability to comprehend things (Get the picture!). I'm sure if you have gotten this far and still care about my method, then I'll just assume you don't read anything, and we can stop right there. Instead, let's talk about why you think notquitethere has to be on the list. Your argument is stolen from IronyOwl, as are a lot of your arguments for me. I suppose you've brought a bit of originality with telling notquitethere not to be dumb with the gambling bit, which is dumb, but that's not enough of an argument to expect him, as you seem to imply.
Back to me for a second. I'll say that your arguments hold the least amount of weight in my head. IronyOwl is second least, but you, who wasn't here for a majority of the day, are the least. Do you know why? Because your original argument is that I don't comprehend things. You say you're going hardball on me? I say you're throwing punches like a... well, certainly not like a girl.
How is pretending to contribute better than actually contributing? The only people that have to pretend to contribute are scum, right? There's no need to pretend. And don't go about reaffirming my arguments, like it's okay to vote me but pretend my case is justified. Because if I'm scum, my case wouldn't be justified. You got that? Scum don't have justified cases. They have pretend cases, where they exploit weaknesses in townies to create a case. So don't give me garbage about how they pretend to be useful and aren't spotless for pity points. I don't want you to say tomorrow, "Well, I lynched her, but I felt her case was decent." and then steal my case. That's low.
Heh, I did it again. I keep forgetting to Extend in these games. Always rushing to the finish line then making statements with heavy finality before I even remember we can buy more time. In Extension Mafia, with several posts sandwiching mine in pure Extend, and I still forget to do it until now.You rushed to the finish line? Is that why you didn't bother voting last time? Well, feel free to vote me now, big shot. I'll extend all day until I'm done talking, and if that happens to end in my lynch, well, looks like that'll have to be, won't it? No need to be afraid of a no lynch. I won't let that happen.
I should get a checklist for these things.
I swear I will never play another game with unlimited extensions, this is ridiculous.Oh man. You spent too much of your last few posts answering questions?
I spent too much of my last few posts answering questions. It'll be all analysis now until a solid case has been made.
This is our IC, folks. That's right. The condescending douchebag that's here to teach you all how to play. Don't worry, though, he clearly knows better than you at everything. Perhaps I should just save this for Act 3, my cereal's already gone, and I've made no progress.But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).This is really not sinking in for you, is it?
I AM 100% CONFIRMED TOWN. YOU CAN TELL I AM 100% CONFIRMED TOWN BECAUSE YOU CURRENTLY SUSPECT ME FOR NOT SUSPECTING REMUTHRA. SCUM WOULD KNOW NOT TO NOT SUSPECT REMUTHRA BECAUSE THEN TOWN MIGHT SUSPECT THEM FOR IT, THUS IT'S SOMETHING ONLY TOWN WOULD DO.
Now your response to this is...?
I haven't seen worse teaching since Webadict. And that's saying something. Seriously, if you can't keep your cool around newbies, how do you expect to teach them? Did you forget your job? IC first, Mafia second. I'll show you how you could respond without being a jackass:
Quote
If you suspect me for not suspecting Remuthra, then I must be town. Scum would know not to suspect Remuthra because then town might suspect them for it, thus it's only something town would do.
Do you see how I'm not belittling someone for that? It's WIFOM, and sure, it has some problems, but to not use WIFOM in your calculations can be a folly. Using it in a way that's constructive can help you figure out the mindset of the scum, which is important in figuring out who the scum are, and sometimes what their goal is, and I believe his use of WIFOM is constructive. I think scum would likely not lynch Flying Dice because he wasn't a liability. Sure, I could be wrong. But, I'm probably right, and I'll take probably as an excuse to build off the argument.
*The maiden leaves, the bowl still sitting on the table. The lights go out, but the sunlight spills onto the table at the bowl of cereal. Act 2 ends.*
Post by: Shakerag on March 19, 2013, 12:14:52 pm
Hmmm... I need to sleep, but I don't want a no-lynch. I will check back here before the deadline in (just under) three hours. Also, Borno/Quad and Owl are the best candidates for lynching (other than Shakerag), so let's not have any shenanigans here. Oppose Extension.Do you have a taxi outside with the meter running or something, NQT? Is there a reason you don't want to take the time to get good reads on the new replacements?
The IC's votes for Quad make me nervous. I'm getting more and more certain that one of them is scum, because I think Quad is an easy target for scum to lynch. She certainly acts it, but I personally don't think she's scummy enough to lynch.Of course, it couldn't possibly be the case that maybe both ICs see something worth investigating. You yourself even said (@391) that you were fine with a Quad lynch, and you were finding her increasingly scummy. Actually, looking back now, Quad only posted once between you stating that you thought she was town and then saying you found "Quad scummier with every post she makes". What caused the somewhat quick change of heart there?
I swear I will never play another game with unlimited extensions, this is ridiculous.[BMs have unlimited extensions because this is a learning game. It's naturally going to take longer. Most non-BM games do tend to have a cap on the number of extensions allowed, however. If you feel the day is running too long, you can always oppose an extension (which you have), or just lay out such a brilliant case on why someone is scummy that no one can find any fault with it and we all agree to go ahead and lynch them.]
I spent too much of my last few posts answering questions. It'll be all analysis now until a solid case has been made.
If only you all were slightly less noisy.[I'm so sorry we're all not living up to your expectations.]
Like, I know I'm new to this whole thing, but I thought we were here to learn. Not just follow the leader. So, I said to myself, what would the Org do?[So instead of following the ICs, you're just going to follow what Org would have done? You rebel, you. Also, fantastic choice of role model.]
You see, that's the thing. These ICs are supposed to teach you how to play, but, honestly, they're just teaching you how they play. Poorly, at that. You'll leave this game thinking you've learned a bit, but really, no one has taught you anything. Very few of you will last to play continuously. And that's fine. It's a necessary evil.[Given that there's no Mafia 101 textbook, yes, we teach by imparting what we know. It is our hope that players leave these games with some direct knowledge (IC comments) but also hands-on experience with playing a game. The BMs are an environment where new players can make some mistakes (and get advised on said mistakes) without getting dogpiled on by the veterans D1 (I'm looking at you, Dariush). And, yes, part of it is to get them acclimated to how we play here. As I understand it, each Mafia board is a little different from the next, with different "house rules" and communities.
Look at it. The ICs are simply saying I'm lazy scum. Nothing to try to improve my game. What do my actions signify, ICs? Don't you understand?
And yet, I'm certain there's a vast number of players with a similar style to my own. Webadict, ToonyMan, Org, Pandarsenic. Are these newbies supposed to unaware of these styles? To simply ignore them? Because you two do.
If you don't see ways in which to improve your game in the ICs commentary, then I don't know what to tell you. We're not going to hold your hand and tell you exactly what to say. Learn by doing. If we think you're making mistakes, we comment. If you do again, and we don't comment, then maybe you figured something out on your own.
We're also not here to teach new players how to play like those veterans. Their playstyles have evolved out of many, many games and the scope of that sort of thing is way outside of a BM. We're here to get the basics down, and leave it up to the individual players to figure out their own style outside of the BMs.]
[Bah, out of time. I'll have to finish this later.]
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 19, 2013, 01:41:45 pm
One, I've now resigned myself not to answer it, so I wouldn't feel good about answering it. Two, if I answer it, I'll be indited as being pressured (ICs can confirm, I assure you!) which would only make me look more suspicious. Three, I'll have contributed no additional information to finding scum, as IronyOwl has shown himself to be incredibly suspicious.Addressed somewhat by IronyOwl, but yeah, these reasons are terrible.
First point: So you won't answer a question because it hurts your self-image?
Second point: Yielding to this kind of pressure is not scummy in the least. It's merely admitting that you were wrong in the past. Surely you don't think you're infallible.
Third point: This is basically a textbook example of tunneling, which you said you didn't do here:
Quote
As for tunnel vision, of course not. If anything, people will tunnel vision me. I'm very attractive. Who wouldn't want to waste wonders on wandering women? Ridiculously refuses the regular road righteously? Everyone is removing themselves from the game to try to get me to answer a question that has no right answer other than to not answer it. *The witch turns and laughs.* Tunnel vision? *She laughs again.*Now, despite the fact that you gave no reasons as to why you don't have tunnel vision, here are some other quotes that show you are only pressuring one person:
Quote
I have not given up finding scum, as can be told by my reasoning for suspecting IronyOwl.
Quote
I am after IronyOwl here. There is no reason for me to bother with the likes of you two. I am merely answering your questions until you provide me with a reason to suspect you.Do you see? You repeatedly say that since you are suspicious of IO, there is no reason to question anybody else. Are you so confident that you think your initial suspicion is the only possible scum?
Everything I say can reveal something scummy, so the correct answer is I'm not afraid to talk.This is interesting. I don't really understand it. Do you mean you are afraid to talk? Because that's the reason you've given me for not posting your reads. "Everything I say can be used against me," you say. So why don't you just lurk, not posting at all? Nothing could be used against you then. The reason is that not contributing looks more scummy than actually contributing. So if your reason for not contributing your reads is that you don't want to get lynched, you're kind of in a bad position. If you didn't notice, you had two votes and another person who wanted to vote you, but refrained from making a tie.
Oh, question dodging! You've got a big charge on little ol' me. How often to scum dodge questions now? Like, give me a good estimate. Especially newbie games, if you want to be entirely serious. No, go on. I want an answer.You do realize that the thing Remuthra/Flying Dice was lynched for was dodging questions, right?
Quote
Some bad reasoning/tunneling. I've gone through it above. But yeah, I should have posted it then, but was a little rushed.Let's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.Oh man. What about that last post made me look scummier? I'll have to act as IC for now, I suppose. You don't list any reasons for it. You just say that the post made you think I was scummier.
Shakerag:
Alright, it's true. My opinion on Quad has been all over the place. I'm finding it hard to find a solid read, since she does a lot of things scum do(refusing to answer questions and give reads), but I just can't see her being scum. Right now I'm going with my gut feeling, and that says she's town. I think she's simply stubborn and likes to be right all the time. How much of your vote is thinking she's scum, and how much is simply wanting her out of the game?The IC's votes for Quad make me nervous. I'm getting more and more certain that one of them is scum, because I think Quad is an easy target for scum to lynch. She certainly acts it, but I personally don't think she's scummy enough to lynch.Of course, it couldn't possibly be the case that maybe both ICs see something worth investigating. You yourself even said (@391) that you were fine with a Quad lynch, and you were finding her increasingly scummy. Actually, looking back now, Quad only posted once between you stating that you thought she was town and then saying you found "Quad scummier with every post she makes". What caused the somewhat quick change of heart there?
Everyone:
I'm sorry to say it, but I'm not in favour of a Quadressence lynch. My gut feeling says she's not scum, and I'll go with that.
Post by: Quadressence on March 19, 2013, 04:17:13 pm
I'm, like, three steps ahead of you, aren't I? Should I wait for you to catch up, or should I just keep going? I'll probably just keep going because then the people that are pretty on-par right now can stick together.The IC's votes for Quad make me nervous. I'm getting more and more certain that one of them is scum, because I think Quad is an easy target for scum to lynch. She certainly acts it, but I personally don't think she's scummy enough to lynch.Of course, it couldn't possibly be the case that maybe both ICs see something worth investigating. You yourself even said (@391) that you were fine with a Quad lynch, and you were finding her increasingly scummy. Actually, looking back now, Quad only posted once between you stating that you thought she was town and then saying you found "Quad scummier with every post she makes". What caused the somewhat quick change of heart there?I swear I will never play another game with unlimited extensions, this is ridiculous.[BMs have unlimited extensions because this is a learning game. It's naturally going to take longer. Most non-BM games do tend to have a cap on the number of extensions allowed, however. If you feel the day is running too long, you can always oppose an extension (which you have), or just lay out such a brilliant case on why someone is scummy that no one can find any fault with it and we all agree to go ahead and lynch them.]
I spent too much of my last few posts answering questions. It'll be all analysis now until a solid case has been made.If only you all were slightly less noisy.[I'm so sorry we're all not living up to your expectations.]Like, I know I'm new to this whole thing, but I thought we were here to learn. Not just follow the leader. So, I said to myself, what would the Org do?[So instead of following the ICs, you're just going to follow what Org would have done? You rebel, you. Also, fantastic choice of role model.]You see, that's the thing. These ICs are supposed to teach you how to play, but, honestly, they're just teaching you how they play. Poorly, at that. You'll leave this game thinking you've learned a bit, but really, no one has taught you anything. Very few of you will last to play continuously. And that's fine. It's a necessary evil.[Given that there's no Mafia 101 textbook, yes, we teach by imparting what we know. It is our hope that players leave these games with some direct knowledge (IC comments) but also hands-on experience with playing a game. The BMs are an environment where new players can make some mistakes (and get advised on said mistakes) without getting dogpiled on by the veterans D1 (I'm looking at you, Dariush). And, yes, part of it is to get them acclimated to how we play here. As I understand it, each Mafia board is a little different from the next, with different "house rules" and communities.
Look at it. The ICs are simply saying I'm lazy scum. Nothing to try to improve my game. What do my actions signify, ICs? Don't you understand?
And yet, I'm certain there's a vast number of players with a similar style to my own. Webadict, ToonyMan, Org, Pandarsenic. Are these newbies supposed to unaware of these styles? To simply ignore them? Because you two do.
If you don't see ways in which to improve your game in the ICs commentary, then I don't know what to tell you. We're not going to hold your hand and tell you exactly what to say. Learn by doing. If we think you're making mistakes, we comment. If you do again, and we don't comment, then maybe you figured something out on your own.
We're also not here to teach new players how to play like those veterans. Their playstyles have evolved out of many, many games and the scope of that sort of thing is way outside of a BM. We're here to get the basics down, and leave it up to the individual players to figure out their own style outside of the BMs.]
[Bah, out of time. I'll have to finish this later.]
I chose Org because he was underappreciated. His style was pure chaos, anarchy, and yet hid a subtle genius to it. Not only that, but he didn't even realize himself what he was doing. I think if he'd continued playing, he'd evolve much like Toonyman has, and his style would be pretty feared, creating an unholy dakarian/Org combination. To scoff at his play style is to not have learned a thing from history. It's his unpredictability that made him unique but also troublesome. If he was focused chaos... He'd be a god.
But that's a different story. One where I'm trying to get people to look at more than just words. Words are words. Nothing is inherently scummy about them. If I said "kill" and "mafia", these words mean very little on their own. And even in a sentence, "Kill mafia." can differ from "Kill, mafia." You're short-sighting these newbies. You're saying that things are done this way or else you're scum. You should simply be saying things are done this way because of this. It's way too meta for me.
I'm not asking for a script. I don't need one. I'm asking for rationale. That would make learning a hell of a lot easier.
So, if you want to teach by example, then make a case against me other than "doesn't answer questions" because that's a poor reason, and that's not nearly enough. I'm waiting.
Quadressence:You're actually pretty perceptive, I'll give you that. It's nice knowing someone's paying attention. Alright, let's start.One, I've now resigned myself not to answer it, so I wouldn't feel good about answering it. Two, if I answer it, I'll be indited as being pressured (ICs can confirm, I assure you!) which would only make me look more suspicious. Three, I'll have contributed no additional information to finding scum, as IronyOwl has shown himself to be incredibly suspicious.Addressed somewhat by IronyOwl, but yeah, these reasons are terrible.
First point: So you won't answer a question because it hurts your self-image?
Second point: Yielding to this kind of pressure is not scummy in the least. It's merely admitting that you were wrong in the past. Surely you don't think you're infallible.
Third point: This is basically a textbook example of tunneling, which you said you didn't do here:QuoteAs for tunnel vision, of course not. If anything, people will tunnel vision me. I'm very attractive. Who wouldn't want to waste wonders on wandering women? Ridiculously refuses the regular road righteously? Everyone is removing themselves from the game to try to get me to answer a question that has no right answer other than to not answer it. *The witch turns and laughs.* Tunnel vision? *She laughs again.*Now, despite the fact that you gave no reasons as to why you don't have tunnel vision, here are some other quotes that show you are only pressuring one person:QuoteI have not given up finding scum, as can be told by my reasoning for suspecting IronyOwl.QuoteI am after IronyOwl here. There is no reason for me to bother with the likes of you two. I am merely answering your questions until you provide me with a reason to suspect you.Do you see? You repeatedly say that since you are suspicious of IO, there is no reason to question anybody else. Are you so confident that you think your initial suspicion is the only possible scum?Everything I say can reveal something scummy, so the correct answer is I'm not afraid to talk.This is interesting. I don't really understand it. Do you mean you are afraid to talk? Because that's the reason you've given me for not posting your reads. "Everything I say can be used against me," you say. So why don't you just lurk, not posting at all? Nothing could be used against you then. The reason is that not contributing looks more scummy than actually contributing. So if your reason for not contributing your reads is that you don't want to get lynched, you're kind of in a bad position. If you didn't notice, you had two votes and another person who wanted to vote you, but refrained from making a tie.Oh, question dodging! You've got a big charge on little ol' me. How often to scum dodge questions now? Like, give me a good estimate. Especially newbie games, if you want to be entirely serious. No, go on. I want an answer.You do realize that the thing Remuthra/Flying Dice was lynched for was dodging questions, right?QuoteSome bad reasoning/tunneling. I've gone through it above. But yeah, I should have posted it then, but was a little rushed.Let's have some consensus. Who do we want to lynch? I'd be fine with any of the three above, but from most to least preferable: NQT, IronyOwl, Quadressence. I'm actually starting to find Quad scummier with every post she makes.Oh man. What about that last post made me look scummier? I'll have to act as IC for now, I suppose. You don't list any reasons for it. You just say that the post made you think I was scummier.
Shakerag:Alright, it's true. My opinion on Quad has been all over the place. I'm finding it hard to find a solid read, since she does a lot of things scum do(refusing to answer questions and give reads), but I just can't see her being scum. Right now I'm going with my gut feeling, and that says she's town. I think she's simply stubborn and likes to be right all the time. How much of your vote is thinking she's scum, and how much is simply wanting her out of the game?The IC's votes for Quad make me nervous. I'm getting more and more certain that one of them is scum, because I think Quad is an easy target for scum to lynch. She certainly acts it, but I personally don't think she's scummy enough to lynch.Of course, it couldn't possibly be the case that maybe both ICs see something worth investigating. You yourself even said (@391) that you were fine with a Quad lynch, and you were finding her increasingly scummy. Actually, looking back now, Quad only posted once between you stating that you thought she was town and then saying you found "Quad scummier with every post she makes". What caused the somewhat quick change of heart there?
Everyone:
I'm sorry to say it, but I'm not in favour of a Quadressence lynch. My gut feeling says she's not scum, and I'll go with that.
I can't answer the question because I've already made up my mind not to. Multiple reasons, including the ones I've given, but like it or not, I won't. Mostly because people want it answered. I'm a tease. Ironically, I want to answer the question of my own free will because I actually have better reads on people, but I can't due to being an ass. See what I'm reduced too? Hard choices.
I'm unable to vote you for basically any reason now. You're too bouncy, chaotic, to be scum. Not focused enough. Plus, you've nailed a lot of good points, so even if you are scum, I'd be okay losing to you.
notquitethere can't be scum either. He's leading the town too much, and he admitted to being too hesitant before. Again, too bouncy. Plus, his case on IronyOwl, while lacking, would be stupid for scum to make. Combine that with a bus on his scumpartner, and he's either the stupidest genius alive, or the craziest psychopath I know. Either way, not fit to be scum.
Onyxjew is too obscure. He doesn't post enough, and when he does, he just copies other people. <-- I suggest looking at this kid.
IronyOwl is a tool, but has a connection to Flying Dice. Needs to learn how to stay calm better.
Shakerag is trying, but lacks firmness. Needs to better state his case.
And I can't even remember anything notable about Spaghetti7, so what do I care? Make him talk more. <-- He should be looked at too.
I'm only answering these questions because I like you, and you'll at least take these notes into account.
Now, I didn't mean that I'm only suspicious of IronyOwl. I meant that I really only care about one suspect at a time in regards to questioning and case building. I'll note things that are suspicious. So, take away this: notquitethere isn't scum. It's too unlikely. It's one of those four. Unfortunately, there's only three lynches, so if you can figure out which one to eliminate, then fine by me (Or maybe figure out which ones most likely to be scum, since, you know, that's the smarter play.)
I suppose the talk thing could be taken like that, but I meant that my talking serves as a replacement for my reads. If I continue talking, I will be looked at continually.
As for Remuthra getting lynched for that, you got me there. I didn't read too much of the beginning.
Post by: Shakerag on March 19, 2013, 04:43:41 pm
Will I post a list of reads. Mmmm, let me thi--No. Why? Because that's a lot of useless nonsense that can change at the press of an Enter. I give you what's important. What's meaningful. What's happening right now. And here, I'm already called wordy. ::)And we want to know what your opinions are about all the players -in that moment in time-. This also help us to determine if you're being consistent in your opinions, or see if you've suddenly changed how you view one of the players. If you're town, you have no reason to hold this information back, because you'll be able to justify any changes later on from your reads when we requested them.
Oh, question dodging! You've got a big charge on little ol' me. How often to scum dodge questions now? Like, give me a good estimate. Especially newbie games, if you want to be entirely serious. No, go on. I want an answer.I'm not going to give you statistics, because I don't have them. I can say that when players waffle about with answers to questions, people get suspisious as to why they are waffling. TheWetSheep has a point about Remuthra, but I'd say that was a bit of an extreme example. My point is that scum are concerned about giving away too much information. Townies are trying to gather more information, because they are the uninformed majority (as opposed to the scum being the informed minority).
Oh, right, and you've given me no real reasoning for your votes. I mean, other than offhanded remarks, almost to the tone of sarcasm. I can really feel the expertise you're trying to spread to newbies. Can anyone else?So far, I've largely been voting you for pressure to see how you'd react and to get a better read on you. I'm feeling less inclined to remove that vote as time goes on.
In fact, I'd say that the newbies are the ones actually teaching. I mean, I've gotten actual tips to help play from them. They even came up with a decent assessment for why I should answer the question. As opposed to the half of one I got from Shakerag. I think IronyOwl might have just repeated that half of a tip somewhere too. ::)
Let's not even forget that I also didn't refuse to give any reads, either.
[For what it's worth, in the time I've been here, I've only really seen one major issue with how an IC is teaching in a BM. Apparently you disagree with our methods. That's fine, but this thread is not the place to discuss that. You can take it to a discussion thread on this sub-board, or you can take it with you and not let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. If the other newbies are helping each other out, great. To me that says that they're figuring out the things we're trying to push them toward and using that information in their interactions with the other players.]
How exactly have you not refused to give any reads?
How much of your vote is thinking she's scum, and how much is simply wanting her out of the game?Like I said above, my vote was initially mostly pressure to help develop a read on her. It's gravitating more toward cocky scum as time has gone on. My vote has nothing to do with what I think of her as a person.
Post by: Quadressence on March 19, 2013, 07:02:10 pm
And yet, I still wasn't going to give you the reads. Mostly because your reason to give them was terrible. Because I can justify the changes later but also because I can be consistent in my views? Those two are kind of opposites. Your reasoning is incredibly silly. ::)Will I post a list of reads. Mmmm, let me thi--No. Why? Because that's a lot of useless nonsense that can change at the press of an Enter. I give you what's important. What's meaningful. What's happening right now. And here, I'm already called wordy. ::)And we want to know what your opinions are about all the players -in that moment in time-. This also help us to determine if you're being consistent in your opinions, or see if you've suddenly changed how you view one of the players. If you're town, you have no reason to hold this information back, because you'll be able to justify any changes later on from your reads when we requested them.Oh, question dodging! You've got a big charge on little ol' me. How often to scum dodge questions now? Like, give me a good estimate. Especially newbie games, if you want to be entirely serious. No, go on. I want an answer.I'm not going to give you statistics, because I don't have them. I can say that when players waffle about with answers to questions, people get suspisious as to why they are waffling. TheWetSheep has a point about Remuthra, but I'd say that was a bit of an extreme example. My point is that scum are concerned about giving away too much information. Townies are trying to gather more information, because they are the uninformed majority (as opposed to the scum being the informed minority).Oh, right, and you've given me no real reasoning for your votes. I mean, other than offhanded remarks, almost to the tone of sarcasm. I can really feel the expertise you're trying to spread to newbies. Can anyone else?So far, I've largely been voting you for pressure to see how you'd react and to get a better read on you. I'm feeling less inclined to remove that vote as time goes on.
In fact, I'd say that the newbies are the ones actually teaching. I mean, I've gotten actual tips to help play from them. They even came up with a decent assessment for why I should answer the question. As opposed to the half of one I got from Shakerag. I think IronyOwl might have just repeated that half of a tip somewhere too. ::)
Let's not even forget that I also didn't refuse to give any reads, either.
[For what it's worth, in the time I've been here, I've only really seen one major issue with how an IC is teaching in a BM. Apparently you disagree with our methods. That's fine, but this thread is not the place to discuss that. You can take it to a discussion thread on this sub-board, or you can take it with you and not let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. If the other newbies are helping each other out, great. To me that says that they're figuring out the things we're trying to push them toward and using that information in their interactions with the other players.]
How exactly have you not refused to give any reads?How much of your vote is thinking she's scum, and how much is simply wanting her out of the game?Like I said above, my vote was initially mostly pressure to help develop a read on her. It's gravitating more toward cocky scum as time has gone on. My vote has nothing to do with what I think of her as a person.
What scum are afraid of information? That's silly. Withholding information just makes them stand out. You could maybe argue that I am willingly trying to WIFOM the town by being extremely combative and stubborn, so that I could argue scum wouldn't do that. And to that, I technically can't say I wouldn't do, but I'm not doing that now. Scum would be better off baiting information from others and steadily absorbing it into their repertoire, but the point is moot here, as there's really only a power role to obtain. Everything else would be misinformation infiltration, which is easy enough.
Your vote wasn't a pressure vote. That's incredibly silly to say so, as you kept it there for plenty of time, including up until the end of the day. You don't have to lie. You can say, "I voted for her because she was scummy." Lies are detestable, and you know that. Don't lie about this fake pressure business to make you feel/look better. It's a horrible way to explain your vote, because you basically don't. You can just keep it there without having to come up with additional reasoning as well, since you can just say that you don't feel like moving it without explanation.
Come on, Shakerag. (Don't be lazy scum.)
Cocky scum. I snickered a bit at that. It means you're actually treating me like a threat now instead of a noob. Maybe next post will give a good example of what a real case looks like, but judging by your current lack of a good case, I wouldn't count on it.
Your attitude is depreciating too. Geez, what a good bunch of ICs we've got here. I don't disagree with the method. I disagree with the teachers. You've both shown disgraceful ways on how to make a case. The other newbies are the only ones helping the newbies. I've seen them make better cases than either of you. You can hate my attitude, my play style, my thinking, but then you'll have to deal with the mirror I hold to yours. You think I can't call you out for failing as an IC? You're going to be unpleasantly surprised. You want me to be nicer about it? Fine. But then start doing your job.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 19, 2013, 07:16:08 pm
IronyOwl is a tool, but has a connection to Flying Dice. Needs to learn how to stay calm better.... I'm not─ I don't even─ Guh. This sentence physically hurts my brain. You spend three massive posts berating everyone in sight, and even specifically state in "Act Two" that you having an attitude is fine. So, remind me of the difference between verbally attacking people, and losing your calm? I see a difference in cause, but incredibly little in effect.
Quote
Shakerag is trying, but lacks firmness. Needs to better state his case.[/quote]
This coming from the person who took half the damn board yelling at you to finally give your reads or reasons.
If only you all were slightly less noisy.If by noisy you mean opinionated, I don't think I have to make any of the blatantly obvious quotes, like the one right above, to point out how horribly self-righteous and hypocritical this statement is.
If you meant posting long or frequent posts, then that's kind of the goal of the game, is it not? And again, you did this as well. Three times, by last count.
If you meant an unknown third option, please do elaborate.
Quad, silence the hypocrisy. I can only take so much stupid in one day before I have an aneurysm.
In other news, I'm lost with these allusions to Org and Dariush. I take it they're common patrons of the other parts of the Mafia board?
I've decided my Quad vote wasn't really as accurate as I would have liked. I think it was more of a vain hope at silencing her out of irritation, as pointed out above, rather than true scumhunting. I'm not saying I confirm her as town, I'm just saying I really don't have a good enough reason to lynch her just yet. Considering I was fully prepared to lynch someone for personal reasons, that would probably be a new low for me in Mafia. Time for a new target or two.
Irony, damn. I really want to find someone to pick on besides Quad, and something tells me there's something I could pick at within your posts, but I just can't find it. Curse you noob juices!
WetSheep, you haven't been getting much attention lately, have you? Have a question.
I'm beginning to hit conspiracy levels of paranoia about Quad. She is either hitting the absolute noob gold vein I capitalized on in my first Mafia. You may know the one, the
Quote
It's terrible, but why would scum possibly do that?I actually survived into the final rounds of the last BM on practically just that. Admittedly, I was Town, but still. I'm realizing I'm having those same thoughts when I read Quad's posts. I keep thinking she is painfully annoying, but I can't see a reason why scum would throw themselves into the spotlight with pure antagonism. It's either a beautifully powerful new technique for scum-hiding, or she is genuinely being an annoying twat and oozing noob. What do you think about this?
Post by: Quadressence on March 19, 2013, 07:34:03 pm
This coming from the person who took half the damn board yelling at you to finally give your reads or reasons.Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.
What did you just say?
Those reads weren't for you. Those reads were specifically for TheWetSheep. You think I posted that because you pressured me? You think I'm afraid of you? The guy who has only recently started posting. Your pressure of hating my attitude? You cannot be serious.
I owe you nothing.
I've decided my Quad vote wasn't really as accurate as I would have liked. I think it was more of a vain hope at silencing her out of irritation, as pointed out above, rather than true scumhunting. I'm not saying I confirm her as town, I'm just saying I really don't have a good enough reason to lynch her just yet. Considering I was fully prepared to lynch someone for personal reasons, that would probably be a new low for me in Mafia. Time for a new target or two.And you thought this was pressuring me? You even admitted to only disliking me for my attitude. Thanks for showing that you've done nothing these past few days.
*The maiden scoffs.* Pressure. I yield to no one.
Post by: Teneb on March 19, 2013, 07:48:22 pm
Failure to do either so will result in a very angry Deathsword, who is already quite angry for tangential reasons.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 19, 2013, 08:21:10 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 19, 2013, 08:44:44 pm
Also, just like visiting a foreign country, showing respect for the board's culture will go a long way towards getting along with the residents.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 19, 2013, 09:31:33 pm
Quad:
I'm unable to vote you for basically any reason now. You're too bouncy, chaotic, to be scum. Not focused enough. Plus, you've nailed a lot of good points, so even if you are scum, I'd be okay losing to you.Great! Although I'm a little confused as to why you explained why you couldn't give your reads just before you gave them.
notquitethere can't be scum either. He's leading the town too much, and he admitted to being too hesitant before. Again, too bouncy. Plus, his case on IronyOwl, while lacking, would be stupid for scum to make. Combine that with a bus on his scumpartner, and he's either the stupidest genius alive, or the craziest psychopath I know. Either way, not fit to be scum.
Onyxjew is too obscure. He doesn't post enough, and when he does, he just copies other people. <-- I suggest looking at this kid.
IronyOwl is a tool, but has a connection to Flying Dice. Needs to learn how to stay calm better.
Shakerag is trying, but lacks firmness. Needs to better state his case.
And I can't even remember anything notable about Spaghetti7, so what do I care? Make him talk more. <-- He should be looked at too.
These do help me, in case you were wondering. One big reason why is so that I don't have to keep devoting so much energy into trying to get you to give them. They do raise a question though:
You state being bouncy and lacking focus to be a town-tell. I know you're a fan of chaos, but I would think it's a scumtell, because it means they lack devotion and don't care about who they lynch. Unless we have different meanings for bouncy.
Also, it's worth noting that I think the reason that I give so much advice is that I have a ton of time on my hands. Spring Break and all that.
Onyx:
WetSheep, you haven't been getting much attention lately, have you? Have a question.I'm leaning towards the latter. Quad's dropping so many scum-tells in such a towny way she'd have to be brilliant to be scum. But I don't think it's really oozing noob. I think she could act a lot more towny if she really wanted to and wasn't so confident in her own method.
I'm beginning to hit conspiracy levels of paranoia about Quad. She is either hitting the absolute noob gold vein I capitalized on in my first Mafia. You may know the one, theQuoteIt's terrible, but why would scum possibly do that?I actually survived into the final rounds of the last BM on practically just that. Admittedly, I was Town, but still. I'm realizing I'm having those same thoughts when I read Quad's posts. I keep thinking she is painfully annoying, but I can't see a reason why scum would throw themselves into the spotlight with pure antagonism. It's either a beautifully powerful new technique for scum-hiding, or she is genuinely being an annoying twat and oozing noob. What do you think about this?
Shakerag:
Gah. I was reading all your activities over Day 1 in hopes of revealing something scummy. It turns out you're not as scummy as I thought. Only thing I could find was this:
It seems to me you put an inordinate amount of pressure on SuperBlast over trivial things. Example:
I look at what he said that made you suspicious and see genuine, easy-to-make noob mistakes. Don't you?And yet, you've not explicitly denied being neither scum nor having Remuthra being your partner. You just denied that you're looking for advice. Tell Urist Imiknorris to coach his scumlings better for me.Damn why does it seems like all my questions make people suspicious of me >.>Here's a question back, your scum that everyone generally believes is town and your partner currently the town's center of attention and about to be lynched. Let's make it Day 1 as well. What would you do it that situation?Wave goodbye to my partner in scumchat and bus them without remorse. Looking for advice about what to do with your scumbuddy Remuthra, superBlast?
And to answer you, no I'm not but if you turn out scum then bussing is viable an option for you. I'll keep that in mind when we catch one of the scum.
I tried going through Day 2 looking at all of NQT's posts, but I'm getting tired and it's getting harder to concentrate. What I did see wasn't very scummy. Since I'm not too suspicious of either Onyx or Spaghetti, my vote will stay on IronyOwl.
Man, I feel like I was going to put other stuff in but forgot it. Oh well.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 19, 2013, 10:21:51 pm
Onyx: You said a while ago(post # 364) that you were going to give us your reads. Could you give them now?
Post by: IronyOwl on March 19, 2013, 10:38:16 pm
No contradiction. You're simply misconstruing things. I never did propose a method. I said that I would use one that didn't involve posting my reads on everyone. I deemed it... Not posting your reads. Why? Mostly because I didn't want to. It was mindlessly following. Like, I know I'm new to this whole thing, but I thought we were here to learn. Not just follow the leader.We've been trying to teach you. You haven't been interested in learning. If all I needed was for you to do as I did, I'd have told you what to do and not particularly bothered explaining why. Instead I've been explaining why over and over again despite your obvious disinterest in my savage attempts to curb your creativity, ie doing whatever you feel like whyever you feel like it.
So, I said to myself, what would the Org do?Get a policy lynch going on yourself for a time?
You see, that's the thing. These ICs are supposed to teach you how to play, but, honestly, they're just teaching you how they play. Poorly, at that. You'll leave this game thinking you've learned a bit, but really, no one has taught you anything. Very few of you will last to play continuously. And that's fine. It's a necessary evil.I can call you out on being a liar using the post immediately before you made this statement. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4114140#msg4114140) What do we see here?
Look at it. The ICs are simply saying I'm lazy scum. Nothing to try to improve my game. What do my actions signify, ICs? Don't you understand?
Spoiler: This, amongst other things: (click to show/hide)
As for the rest, I assume your actions signify that you have no fucking clue what you're doing, but refuse to acknowledge as much. If you've got another theory to propose (or would like to back up "I'm creative wheeeeeee!" with explanations for why you're being usefully creative), I'm all ears.
And yet, I'm certain there's a vast number of players with a similar style to my own. Webadict, ToonyMan, Org, Pandarsenic. Are these newbies supposed to unaware of these styles? To simply ignore them? Because you two do.Ahahahaha no. None of them act like you do, and more importantly all (well, except maybe Org) of them get better results than you do from how they do act. Saying "well they don't act like you do, so I'm acting like them in not acting like you do!" is akin to claiming that some guy uses a crossbow instead of a rifle, therefore your plan to use rabbit slippers in a firefight is entirely justified.
My "method" involves looking at what people say. The content. The meaning. The context. The subtext. The wordplay. The grammar. The structure... And I say to myself, "Would I write that as scum?" And sometimes I say "yes" and sometimes "no" but overall, it helps me feel who's scummier than others. Will I post a list of reads. Mmmm, let me thi--No. Why? Because that's a lot of useless nonsense that can change at the press of an Enter. I give you what's important. What's meaningful. What's happening right now. And here, I'm already called wordy. ::)WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAA. That's like, sooooooooooooo raaaaaadicallllll, maaaaaaaan. I never would have thought of, like... interpreting what someone says to figure out if they're scum or not!
So... what does this have to do with not following the leader or emulating Org again? Don't get me wrong; I'm pleased that you've admitted that scumhunting requires analyzing posts (although your continued insistence on refusing to understand that other people might like to do that to you sometime so maybe it'd be nice if you could talk is unfortunate). I just don't understand how page after page of talking about how individualistic and clever and intelligent and not-sheeplike you are culminated in a confession that you do, in fact, use basic scumhunting from time to time.
Let's not even forget that I also didn't refuse to give any reads, either.Straight-up lying is probably one of the worst scumtells there is.
But please, Ms. Creative Notsheep, tell us how your persistent refusal to give reads on the basis that it's stupid and there's no reason to doesn't count as refusing to give any reads.
Act 2:
Really? I think I missed that from you, or else it got drowned out in all the other stuff you've been doing. Could you link to where you mentioned this, and please explain what I asked Spaghetti to explain: namely, when I tried to distance myself from FD.I don't have much time tonight, but I can say this much:This is almost exactly what I've posted about IronyOwl and notquitethere. Explain to me how it's taken you this long to only have these suspicions.
I find IronyOwl and NQT the most suspicious. NQT tries too hard, and from what little there is to analyse about Irony it seems they tried to distance themselves from FD till it became disadvantageous. So, I'm all up for voting Irony if push comes to shove.
Good post, however.
Pretty much, yeah. I've explained why, several times, as has Shakerag, WetSheep, Spaghetti, and Onyx, AKA every other player in the game. A quick grab nets me:Also this one thing:So, what you're saying is that if I don't do what you say for your implied reason of "or else I'll lynch you," you'll lynch me? Then explain to me how not only is that scummy but also how that makes me scummier than everyone else. If your reason was simply to teach me a lesson, then you've certainly shown us what ICs are truly capable of, because that's literally the only reason I've gotten to answer the question. And I told you, I won't answer the question. So, what are you going to do? Let's see you start actually teaching players how to play.Okay, then, what's your social security and credit card number?That's not relevant to the game. Your reads are. Feel free to laugh at (and question the motives of) anyone demanding to know what you had for breakfast this morning. For game-related stuff, "Too bad, take what I choose to give you" will impair town's hunting ability and result in you being lynched.
1. We can critique each other for better overall reads. If I think somebody is scum for an invalid reason, but don't share my reasons, nobody can correct me, and I'll go on suspecting that person.
2. It's helpful to you so that, when you eventually vote someone, we don't accuse you of voting without reason.
3. It's helpful to us because you can point out scummy/towny things we miss.
4. If you are scum, there's more chance to find a scumslip, since scum know the alignment of everyone and may therefore give something away in their reads.
5. Town benefit from having as much information and opinion as possible out there. As said above, only scum would want to withhold this kind of information.
No, I'm not going to give you my reads because they could be used against me... This is why everybody gives them, so we can decide who is the most scummy.
Do you not understand? Town are on a team. Please try to help your team(if you are town) by giving us your opinions. The only valid reason I see for withholding reads is so that you don't get Mafiakilled if you are suspicious of scum.
Quadressence, the town works as a team. We are all trying to find scum together, therefore do you not agree it follows that they who withdraws their list of reads is scum?
The reason was, you were asked. Generally when one is asked a question in Mafia, you answer. No being clever or dodging it, because it will look scummy.
That has got me interested though, why are the only ones that matter the ones everyone else is going for? Don't you think you might be getting a bit of tunnel vision?
This is a lot of dodgy, irrelevant fluff that boils down to refusing to answer a question because you don't feel like it. Who doesn't want people peering into their brainmeats? Scum. Town doesn't mind, because they know they're innocent in there, even if they're not particularly useful.
That's not relevant to the game. Your reads are. Feel free to laugh at (and question the motives of) anyone demanding to know what you had for breakfast this morning. For game-related stuff, "Too bad, take what I choose to give you" will impair town's hunting ability and result in you being lynched.And yes, that last one is the very post you're quoting, attempting to explain why you should post your reads and it's scummy and counterproductive not to.
So, I'd love to explain why, but we've tried that. It hasn't worked. Why don't you tell me what you're looking for, then? Clearly it seems like something on your end, because every other player in the game seems to grasp it and is willing to share with you, often multiple times.
Admittedly, I was a bit miffed at this point. I realize WIFOM can be a difficult concept to grasp- that's why we have a name for it, after all- but he was literally using WIFOM to justify his use of WIFOM, and I felt an example was in order.This is our IC, folks. That's right. The condescending douchebag that's here to teach you all how to play. Don't worry, though, he clearly knows better than you at everything. Perhaps I should just save this for Act 3, my cereal's already gone, and I've made no progress.But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).This is really not sinking in for you, is it?
I AM 100% CONFIRMED TOWN. YOU CAN TELL I AM 100% CONFIRMED TOWN BECAUSE YOU CURRENTLY SUSPECT ME FOR NOT SUSPECTING REMUTHRA. SCUM WOULD KNOW NOT TO NOT SUSPECT REMUTHRA BECAUSE THEN TOWN MIGHT SUSPECT THEM FOR IT, THUS IT'S SOMETHING ONLY TOWN WOULD DO.
Now your response to this is...?
I haven't seen worse teaching since Webadict. And that's saying something. Seriously, if you can't keep your cool around newbies, how do you expect to teach them? Did you forget your job? IC first, Mafia second. I'll show you how you could respond without being a jackass:I'm not a shitty IC, I just refuse to be a sheep. Check me out being all rebel-like, not listening to THE
More seriously, that was cool enough. I felt it needed some drama to help sink in, as the standard explanations weren't, and if this fails also it won't be because I was too enraged to articulate it properly or not alienate NQT in telling it to him.
It's WIFOM, and sure, it has some problems, but to not use WIFOM in your calculations can be a folly. Using it in a way that's constructive can help you figure out the mindset of the scum, which is important in figuring out who the scum are, and sometimes what their goal is, and I believe his use of WIFOM is constructive. I think scum would likely not lynch Flying Dice because he wasn't a liability. Sure, I could be wrong. But, I'm probably right, and I'll take probably as an excuse to build off the argument.This is surprisingly advanced compared to what I've seen from you so far. Finally taking Imiknorris' advice on these things?
Also, how certain are you scum wouldn't have bussed FD, even at the end to get themselves a free pass? Wasn't NQT your second suspect after me?
Guess I'll cut this "short" as well and deal with the rest later.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 19, 2013, 10:52:12 pm
I owe you nothing.You certainly owe him a whole lot more respect than you're giving him.
Post by: Quadressence on March 19, 2013, 11:31:11 pm
Oh, and another thing I wanted to address but forgot:I owe you nothing.You certainly owe him a whole lot more respect than you're giving him.
she is genuinely being an annoying twat and oozing noob.
I owe you nothing.
If only you all were slightly less noisy.If you meant posting long or frequent posts, then that's kind of the goal of the game, is it not? And again, you did this as well. Three times, by last count.
Great! Although I'm a little confused as to why you explained why you couldn't give your reads just before you gave them.
Ironically, I want to answer the question of my own free will because I actually have better reads on people, but I can't due to being an ass.
You state being bouncy and lacking focus to be a town-tell. I know you're a fan of chaos, but I would think it's a scumtell, because it means they lack devotion and don't care about who they lynch. Unless we have different meanings for bouncy.
we have different meanings for bouncy
Either way, not fit to be scum.
Let's not even forget that I also didn't refuse to give any reads, either.Straight-up lying is probably one of the worst scumtells there is.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*The lights dim, and the actress falls into bed.*
This was far more entertaining than it looks.
Post by: Quadressence on March 20, 2013, 08:39:29 am
But as I stare at the screen, I realize that right now is not a fighting time. There's not enough time to say what I want to. Later.
Wait for Onyxjew to type some more responses. Why has he failed to deliver what he promised? Why is his case a reprint of someone else's?
And extension.
Spaghetti7 is far too quiet. He does similar things to Onyxjew.
Yeah, I'll be back later. My mind has fizzled.
Post by: Shakerag on March 20, 2013, 09:08:54 am
Request replacement.
[I'm very sorry all, and this is highly unusual for me to do, but there are some things going on in my personal life that are demanding enough mental and emotional attention that it's difficult for me to focus on work, let alone this game.]
Post by: Tiruin on March 20, 2013, 09:33:40 am
Unvote.{God Speed Shakerag, and may you fare well in your endeavors. You're always an inspiration ^^
Request replacement.
[I'm very sorry all, and this is highly unusual for me to do, but there are some things going on in my personal life that are demanding enough mental and emotional attention that it's difficult for me to focus on work, let alone this game.]
Also, i'll be probably replacing this good man in. Just to note ahead of time!}
Post by: Remuthra on March 20, 2013, 09:35:42 am
Post by: Tiruin on March 20, 2013, 09:41:25 am
((Now all we need is for IO and Deathsword to replace out.))[What? XD You can't replace the moderator...
Or are you saying that the whole cast of this BM has undergone a replacement?]
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 20, 2013, 09:48:40 am
Also, Jim Groovester replaced Darvi as moderator in BMXXXIII.
Post by: Teneb on March 20, 2013, 10:03:03 am
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 20, 2013, 10:45:48 am
Right before the deadline, the votes looked like this:
Captain Ford: 2(FD and SilverDragon) <-- Or 1, because Deathsword said he'd remove SilverDragon's.
NQT: 2(Captain Ford, IronyOwl)
Flying Dice: 2(OnyxJew, Spaghetti)
Not voting: Shakerag, NQT, Borno(up for replacement)
Now, let's assume for a moment NQT is scum. He realizes Captain Ford only has 1 vote. Since FD and himself are both scum, there's almost no way in which scum will not be lynched. Shakerag's probably not going to vote for CF, since a) it would make a 3-way tie, and b) he wasn't suspicious of him. In fact, he stated that he was most suspicious of NQT and FD. Borno won't vote because he's up for replacement. The people already voting aren't likely to change their votes, so the only vote that matters is NQT's. Since he can't get a town lynch, he's obviously going to vote for FD, since this has the upside of the bus.
Does this make sense? Please let me know if you find a flaw.
Quad:
Care to elaborate?You state being bouncy and lacking focus to be a town-tell. I know you're a fan of chaos, but I would think it's a scumtell, because it means they lack devotion and don't care about who they lynch. Unless we have different meanings for bouncy.we have different meanings for bouncyEither way, not fit to be scum.
Tiruin: Do you want an extend?
Post by: notquitethere on March 20, 2013, 10:53:49 am
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 20, 2013, 12:11:20 pm
For now, all I need to say is we need to make a decision; Who do we lynch? My two favorites are Irony and NQT, but I'm open to other explanations.
Post by: Tiruin on March 20, 2013, 04:33:10 pm
Tiruin: Do you want an extend?{Words in the braces are my IC voice ^_^}
Also, I'm going to sleep for now because I've drawn (pun not intended) myself tired until 4am...darn GIMP. Make it 5am :O
Anyway, I'd rather be against the extend unless you all have made up your minds, or are very muchly sure about your target.
As for my reads of briefly skimming the thread:
Quadressence: You're quite astute, I like that. However I think you should start cutting down on the RP' too much :P, I mean, I like RolePlaying as much as the next person, but you can state yourself better by getting to the point.
Though it does give some sort of feel on what you're trying to convey, even statements can easily supplement that.
Also, reads are for generally everyone - no matter who you intend them as an answer for - a forum post is public > visible to everyone. I'd really doubt you can stop someone from reading a post that is needed for an explanation :P
For one, I don't suspect you much - this is partly because of "I really doubt UI could teach that way", and mainly because I just skimmed and that was my first impression; but the real factor is what you post. You're targeting someone, and this is not in an obfuscating way, but what I think is that you're trying to pressure that certain someone regardless of what everyone else thinks. Just like IronyOwl, you're being hostile in a way that shows curtness, but not total disrespect given that you're also learning from him as this also tests emotions. Shortening: You're scumhunting via aggression and specification.
Am I right, ma'am?
Lastly, how do you feel about your target? Are you sure enough that he is the last scum in-game?
{It is always best to summarize a list on why you think that person is scum after a long-drawn battle of wits and words. Trust me, this is what most people will be aiming for if opinions are divided amongst the masses.}
NQT/Onyxjew: Hai. Nice to see you fair fellows again. Question for both of you:
> In scumhunting in this particular thread, do you believe that you should point out every detail of your target's post in trying to catch them, or work on their more prominent points and discard the small quirks? And why?
Spaghetti (Mind if I omit the 7?)
Sorry for not posting much, but school takes up quite a bit of time with exams and stuff. I'm trying to have to replace out, but if it would be better just tell me.{If you think you can manage a substantial and detailed post everyday and are quite sure of yourself, that's A'ok with everyone.
For now, all I need to say is we need to make a decision; Who do we lynch? My two favorites are Irony and NQT, but I'm open to other explanations.
If you're busy (because exams...I can sympathize :/), then just be free to replace out. On your two favorites - who are you most likely inclined to vote, and why should you as we're dealing with one scumbag left? Now, this is mostly hypothetical given the timeframe, but I'd like to see your thinking here.}
TWS (TheWetSheep, I hope you're ok with my acronym?)
Judging from the votecount (Deathsword, please votecount after any post you make D:), you seem to be unvoting, yes?
> Do you think emotions derived from reading a person's post is more likely to point out their alignment to you than the actual wording of the post? Or, do you think that despite a person's quirks or mannerisms in words, a vote is one thing that must always be applied for scumhunting?
And this is goodnight for me. Praise be for typing skills >.>
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 20, 2013, 04:56:10 pm
Spaghetti:
I read through your Day 2 activities because I felt like I hadn't given you much attention. From them, I got a distinct Town read. And then Tiruin ninja'd to steal my question for you, so... It seems like you want consensus on who we want to lynch as much as I do. My feelings on it are that we should get everyone's opinions on who we want to lynch so we can organize something to avoid vote shenanigans/ties. Is this your opinion too?
Also, in answer to your question, I also think we should lynch IronyOwl, and if not, then NQT. Shakerag/Tiruin would be my third scumpick, but it wouldn't be fair to lynch her so soon after she replaced in.
Tiruin:
For an abbreviation of my name, I'd prefer just "Sheep", but anything's fine with me.
I thought I was voting IronyOwl. Do extensions reset the votecount or something?
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your question. For the first part, I'm not sure if you mean my gut feeling when I read their post, or the emotion that they are conveying. For my gut feeling, I think it's more important. After all, anyone can change the wording of their posts. For their emotion, well, I guess that's more important too.
For the second part, do you mean a pressure vote should always be applied, or that we should always look at their votes? I don't think pressure votes are that crucial, but votes are always a good thing to take into account. I don't think we should rely too heavily on them, though.
OK good. I don't really want this game to take forever. Oppose extension. I won't hesitate to retract it if I feel that we need more time, though.Tiruin: Do you want an extend?Anyway, I'd rather be against the extend unless you all have made up your minds, or are very muchly sure about your target.
Post by: Tiruin on March 20, 2013, 05:11:40 pm
[...] it wouldn't be fair to lynch her so soon after she replaced in.{I think it would - that vote would carry on as you are suspecting Shakerag, I'm just filling in his man-sized boots at the moment :P
I mean, unless your vote was solely due to what you see in the person's wording; ie, not that sure of being scum, then it matters.}
Quote
I thought I was voting IronyOwl. Do extensions reset the votecount or something?They don't.
I'm basing it on the latest votecount by DS, where it says you and two other people haven't voted yet.
Mod: Votecount? And please put votecounts along with messages from here on thanks!
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your question. For the first part, I'm not sure if you mean my gut feeling when I read their post, or the emotion that they are conveying. For my gut feeling, I think it's more important. After all, anyone can change the wording of their posts. For their emotion, well, I guess that's more important too.That was me asking you from all directions, and you right here answering them all. Nicely done.
For the second part, do you mean a pressure vote should always be applied, or that we should always look at their votes? I don't think pressure votes are that crucial, but votes are always a good thing to take into account. I don't think we should rely too heavily on them, though.
PFP
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 20, 2013, 05:21:04 pm
Tiruin, I would be most inclined to vote Irony right now, followed by NQT. Both seem dodgy, but The vote patterns I layed out after the lunch seemed to be more in NQT's favour, so I'll follow those before I follow NQT's interesting friend making strategy.
PFP
Post by: Tiruin on March 20, 2013, 05:28:11 pm
Extend.
And because of natural sleepy needs.
Post by: Teneb on March 20, 2013, 05:45:19 pm
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 20, 2013, 05:45:49 pm
I also have my natural sleepy needs, and I'll have to lay down an extend. However, If you want to go ahead, do.
Post by: Teneb on March 20, 2013, 05:53:44 pm
Onyxjew994(0):
Quadressence(1):IronyOwl
notquitethere(0):
Sphagetti7(0):
Tiruin(0):
IronyOwl(4):notquitethere, Quadressence, TheWetSheep, Sphagetti7
Not Voting: Onyxjew994, Tiruin
1 votes for extension. 2 needed (2 for, 1 against).
Day ends today at 22:00 BRT (if you ever want to know/forget what BRT is, check the OP (the very last line, to be specific))
Post by: Quadressence on March 20, 2013, 06:07:00 pm
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 20, 2013, 06:25:42 pm
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 20, 2013, 06:27:32 pm
To restate my meaning from above.
I'm not going to respond or in any way communicate with Quad unless it seems necessary or productive. Which means not now.
If anyone has a complaint about this, I'm willing to defend it as logically as I can. I am also willing to surrender it if good enough reasons are given. Direct questions from Quad will be answered with at least some composure. I do honestly regret that original post and I am sorry. Note, this apology is to the board, not you specifically.
I normally quote when I answer a question, but I think three separate people either directly asked for my leads or implied I should give them, so just look under the bolded heading for your answer.
Leads, Reads, and Dead Ends
I was trying to give these earlier when I started in on the Quad fiasco, but I ended up with a hatespeech for Quad and a
Irony, damn. I really want to find someone to pick on besides Quad, and something tells me there's something I could pick at within your posts, but I just can't find it. Curse you noob juices!for Irony. Now, with little to go on. I think I'll start inspecting TheWetSheep. Mainly because so far everyone seems dead-set on the IC's. So if one of them is scum then I think it's safe to say they'll get caught. While Sheep could go unnoticed for just long enough. I'm saying this before doing any of the digging, so I could just be wrong. Checking below in the other bolded tab.
NQT and Irony seem well-covered and I personally have no quarrel or overt suspicion of them... yet. So I'll leave that to Sheep and Quad as they seem perfectly capable of handling that case for now. The Town, and by extension I, lost the last BM because the entire Town band-wagoned one person at a time as dictated by the few skilled hunters, and we ended up losing the true scum in the tide. I'm taking the opportunity to watch the watchers, so to speak.
Quad, as previously stated, I think she's Town. Personal differences aside, she is either brilliant scum or a... eh... very special breed of Town.
*Everything past this point is actually editted and done after I've done a bit of reading or digging. Everything above is simply opinions and is built on little to no evidence beyond my own memory.*
Examinations
Sheep
Actually, I have nothing. Again. You seem to be genuinely hunting avidly and with good reasons. Ah, just as well. It was worth a backwards glance.
Replacement target because that was so very unrewarding
NQT
You're likely to be the next target of the lynch mob if public opinion and multiple statements to that effect are any indication. Do you have anything to say about that?
Also, I checked the last few pages, Where are you? Despite being public enemy number two, you haven't actually posted much recently.
Tiruin, hello and welcome back. It was fun last time, and the gang was almost back together. If only Ford hadn't died, we could have had a completely off topic war story. Ah, just as well.
NQT/Onyxjew: Hai. Nice to see you fair fellows again. Question for both of you:Personally I would say focus on the details. Scum generally aren't sloppy enough to fail so completely as to have a broad and sweeping point that shows scumminess. In fact, that is exactly why I don't suspect Quad. The details are where mistakes lie, though some seemingly inconsequential things like question-dodging, lurking, or poor decisions can show their faces as scummy, I do tend toward analysis and careful combing for minutia. Actually, in retrospect, minute details are easier to deny or just claim it was a careless mistake.
> In scumhunting in this particular thread, do you believe that you should point out every detail of your target's post in trying to catch them, or work on their more prominent points and discard the small quirks? And why?
Huh, I actually don't have a very solid decision on that question. Good one, that.
Scumpick? IronyOwl. I read through the reasons, and I feel they are good enough for this lynch. Besides, my vote doesn't exactly carry much weight when the Town has such a nice consensus, does it?
^Weak reasons? Why, yes. But my vote carries no point or weight beyond some arbitrary ceremonial point. The die have been rolled, the mob formed, and the gallows built. The democracy demands Irony's blood and I have no ability to deny it. So why try?
Post by: notquitethere on March 20, 2013, 06:36:50 pm
I really wanted to do some more solid analysis and reply to everyone before day's end but I'll not be able to. I'll be kicking myself if Owl is guilty but we let him slip away after so much suspicion. For the arguments I've already given my vote stays. I wanted this day to end with his lynch last week. Oppose Extension, let's nail this.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 20, 2013, 06:57:08 pm
Post by: Quadressence on March 20, 2013, 07:00:25 pm
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 20, 2013, 07:22:20 pm
Onyx, you left out Spaghetti.Convenient and, in a slightly cosmic way, that is kind of my read. </bad explanation>
True. I did completely forget.
Spaghetti, you've not really made an impression on me. Though I can't be too harsh on your lack of activity as I still had my little false start near the beginning of this thread. You went with the crowd on Irony, again, something I also did, but what piques my interest is the lack of any explanation. It's not too suspicious alone, but when you look at the full picture of what we can see of you, it gets a bit more incriminating. We have lurking followed by a band-wagon vote without reason, not exactly in your favor.
Note, this is all knee-jerk reaction. Checking back to within the five-page mark, my definition of recent events, Spaghetti was questioning Quad on her reads. Basically what everyone was doing, if I remember correctly. Not exactly a good sign in my expertise. At that point he faded away, with reasons, and came back with these short bursts just in time to help end Irony. Admittedly, this is not looking good.
Overall Suspicious, and definitely going to look further into this when he/she gets back on with more posts.
Spaghetti, what do you have to say about these opinions? Any commments, concerns, corrections?
Oh, and thank you Quad. My scum-dar completely missed that until you prompted the check. At the very least it gave me something to do on the next day should Irony prove to be less than we hope he is.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 20, 2013, 07:49:03 pm
Everyone's cases on me suck.
NotQuiteThere wants me lynched based on rampant and disproven WIFOM, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4099065#msg4099065) and has once again shortened despite having numerous unanswered questions. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4114140#msg4114140)
Quadressence wants me lynched based primarily on NQT's case, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4105885#msg4105885) which she's not backed up any better than he has, and like NQT, still has a mountain (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4114140#msg4114140) of questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4116694#msg4116694) to answer. Unlike NQT, of course, she's voting to extend and seems to be implying being busy.
TheWetSheep wants me dead because I voted Quad. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4113484#msg4113484) That's literally it. He's also shortening on this brilliant deduction.
Spaghetti doesn't even have a case, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4118642#msg4118642) or if he does it's not one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4114140#msg4114140) he has time to explain. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4118729#msg4118729) He is also extending and claiming need for sleep, however.
Onyx has no reasons whatsoever except that he might as well bandwagon, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4118862#msg4118862) his only justification apparently being a 180 from "I don't have any overt suspicion of IronyOwl" to "I've reread and everyone else's case seems good so let's go with that, which sucks but all the cool kids are doing it anyway." Like NQT and TheSheep, he's also opposing any extensions with that magnificent case in place.
tl;dr you all suck, and I probably should have spent less time fiddling with Quad and more time encouraging everyone else to actually scumhunt. I realized this was an issue later in the day, but never got around to fixing it. Best do better tomorrow.
I'll also keep individual responses short, but you might want to consider insisting on anyone with unanswered questions from me responding to them.
Quadressence:
That's cute, but this means when you said "I wasn't refusing to give any reads" you literally mean you weren't refusing to give more than 0 reads. Why was this one of the most pressing things for you to respond to, rather than, say, me calling you a liar or pointing out that you're stonewalling scum?-responding with quotes-Let's not even forget that I also didn't refuse to give any reads, either.Straight-up lying is probably one of the worst scumtells there is.
This was far more entertaining than it looks.
Onyx:
In other news, I'm lost with these allusions to Org and Dariush. I take it they're common patrons of the other parts of the Mafia board?Dariush is a player known for his RAAAAAAGING at various things, most notably newbies. Org is (was? haven't seen him in a while) a player with a very unique playstyle, mostly consisting of being as intentionally curt and unreadable as possible.
Scumpick? IronyOwl. I read through the reasons, and I feel they are good enough for this lynch. Besides, my vote doesn't exactly carry much weight when the Town has such a nice consensus, does it?This is a lazy, scummy bandwagon. At the very least, you should explain why or which reasons seem good enough.
^Weak reasons? Why, yes. But my vote carries no point or weight beyond some arbitrary ceremonial point. The die have been rolled, the mob formed, and the gallows built. The democracy demands Irony's blood and I have no ability to deny it. So why try?
Perhaps more importantly though, you don't sound terribly convinced, yet you're voting me as your top suspect. What does this say about your reads in general, that even you admit your top, willing-to-shorten-to-lynch-this-scumbag suspect is a shitty, vague, bandwagony copy of everyone else?
Spaghetti:
Unvote and Vote IronyOwlWhy is it you've never actually explained your current case, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4112449#msg4112449) despite being asked to do so? I can understand being busy to a point, but it was two days ago that you gave this quick blurb and haven't done anything, not even answer questions or explain your vote, since.
I also have my natural sleepy needs, and I'll have to lay down an extend. However, If you want to go ahead, do.
For that matter, your last scumhunting was... well, technically still two days ago, since weekends don't count, but it was chronologically prior to that and nothing appeared to come of it. Why?
Sheep:
I thought I was voting IronyOwl. Do extensions reset the votecount or something?How can you not feel you need more time if you've done zero scumhunting on your primary suspect?
OK good. I don't really want this game to take forever. Oppose extension. I won't hesitate to retract it if I feel that we need more time, though.
NotQuiteThere:
(Sorry for dropping off the map guys- I wasn't working before this week and now I have very little free time.)So you haven't had time to properly play the game, so you're going to hurry the game along because it's taking too long?
I really wanted to do some more solid analysis and reply to everyone before day's end but I'll not be able to. I'll be kicking myself if Owl is guilty but we let him slip away after so much suspicion. For the arguments I've already given my vote stays. I wanted this day to end with his lynch last week. Oppose Extension, let's nail this.
You guys are gonna be reeeeaaaaaal busy tomorrow.
Post by: Quadressence on March 20, 2013, 07:58:50 pm
As for my reads of briefly skimming the thread:But, the rrrrrrrpppppp! :((((((((
Quadressence: You're quite astute, I like that. However I think you should start cutting down on the RP' too much :P, I mean, I like RolePlaying as much as the next person, but you can state yourself better by getting to the point.
Though it does give some sort of feel on what you're trying to convey, even statements can easily supplement that.
Also, reads are for generally everyone - no matter who you intend them as an answer for - a forum post is public > visible to everyone. I'd really doubt you can stop someone from reading a post that is needed for an explanation :P
For one, I don't suspect you much - this is partly because of "I really doubt UI could teach that way", and mainly because I just skimmed and that was my first impression; but the real factor is what you post. You're targeting someone, and this is not in an obfuscating way, but what I think is that you're trying to pressure that certain someone regardless of what everyone else thinks. Just like IronyOwl, you're being hostile in a way that shows curtness, but not total disrespect given that you're also learning from him as this also tests emotions. Shortening: You're scumhunting via aggression and specification.
Am I right, ma'am?
Lastly, how do you feel about your target? Are you sure enough that he is the last scum in-game?
{It is always best to summarize a list on why you think that person is scum after a long-drawn battle of wits and words. Trust me, this is what most people will be aiming for if opinions are divided amongst the masses.}
I can try to cut back, but eliminate entirely is too *She reaches for the words inside her head.* blase, boring, ordinary, quaint!
*She snaps her fingers, suddenly dressed as a card dealer.*
I'll make you a deal. I'll summarize a bit at the end for rp-heavy posts. Less to get in your way.
I think IronyOwl is suspicious. I also think that Spaghetti and Onyxjew are suspicious. I also also think you were suspicious. But I trust notquitethere's original assessment of IronyOwl, and combine that with what I saw of IronyOwl, so that I think he's the best choice for scum. TheWetSheep cannot be scum. If he were scum, he'd be more prone to focus someone down. I also doubt he'd be wavering as much on his opinion. notquitethere would have been better off offing himself instead of Flying Dice. Flying Dice's really big scumtell was his previous self, and if he got far enough away, he'd be fine. Spaghetti is quiet, and I wouldn't mind lynching him. Onyxjew is finally getting into the game. I think his reads are lacking, but I'm glad he's posting. I'd prefer if he would focus his vote target a bit more, so I could read more into his mindset. And you are being much more readable and talkative, so I don't mind not suspecting you.
I also finally just got IronyOwl's comment about Imiknorris. I was completely confused as to what he had to do with WIFOM until I realized he was the scum IC. (I actually got most of my WIFOM knowledge from Webadict. It was like he was fueled purely by WIFOM.) As such, I'd actually prefer it if people thought I was brilliant scum instead of retard town. I know how to use WIFOM. I've read all of their styles. Toonyman's aggression. Org's chaos. Webadict's manipulation. Vector's cunning. Leafsnail's adaptiveness. Dakarian's brilliance. Pandarsenic's unreadability. Jim Groovester's leadership. Toaster's planning. Bookthras's persuasiveness. Dariush's bravery. So many styles to absorb as you read along. And, I think I can do it. I think I could be brilliant scum. So brilliant you wouldn't even know I was scum. So, don't write me off. I know how to be scum. I want to be unable to be written off. I want a status among the gods. I want to enter the pantheon. I will be known for something, even if I don't know it yet.
I want to never be written off. Town will be wary of me. Scum will fear me. First to die at night. Last to live during the day.
I want to live forever.
Overall, I trust notquitethere on his case against IronyOwl. I think IronyOwl cannot find an adequate target to go after, and his reasoning is not up to par. I think IronyOwl has a connection with Flying Dice. IronyOwl responded poorly when pressured. (Even if I was too hard on him, which I might have been.)
PPE: IronyOwl posted. I would actually enjoy conversing with him more (I want an extension just to talk. I'd have no problem constantly discussing.), but I'm low on time. Small answers: I was combating the liar charge as well. Not sure how I'm stonewalling. I read parts of your posts, and that's what I got to. Your post was big, so I missed parts. I think you have a few minutes to say anything you want to.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 20, 2013, 08:04:32 pm
PPE: IronyOwl posted. I would actually enjoy conversing with him more (I want an extension just to talk. I'd have no problem constantly discussing.), but I'm low on time. Small answers: I was combating the liar charge as well. Not sure how I'm stonewalling. I read parts of your posts, and that's what I got to. Your post was big, so I missed parts. I think you have a few minutes to say anything you want to.I think it's a few hours, actually, but if I had anything more to say it'd be in response to your responses, not just piling more stuff on.
Of course, I suppose I could point out that you haven't missed parts of my posts, you've hit one or two sections of them. I hope you don't think you've responded to me in any meaningful way recently, but if so that explains how you missed the part about stonewalling.
Post by: Quadressence on March 20, 2013, 08:14:22 pm
Okay, what can I answer right here, right now? I'll try to make it short and to the point, because having long pointless arguments where we miss each other's points is not getting the point across point point point point point. Sorry, I just have to get rid of that word right now. I also don't want to be cut off by time.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 20, 2013, 08:15:51 pm
Onyx has no reasons whatsoever except that he might as well bandwagon, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4118862#msg4118862) his only justification apparently being a 180 from "I don't have any overt suspicion of IronyOwl" to "I've reread and everyone else's case seems good so let's go with that, which sucks but all the cool kids are doing it anyway." Like NQT and TheSheep, he's also opposing any extensions with that magnificent case in place.I suppose this is the part where your violent snap-back is going to kill all of our poorly placed assumptions and save you? A fair idea, actually. I don't quite like your tone, but I admit I was rash. You at least deserve a chance to defend yourself before we dogpile and murder you. Cute thing being, you just did. I don't plan on extending just to keep this game going. I now find Spaghetti scummier than you just because I haven't really made much of anyone but Quad, Sheep, and You. Gaze fairly upon this magnificent tapestry, I completely forgot Spaghetti and even so don't have nearly enough to make a case, I disregarded NQT because voting him would have no effect or point, you were already going down and he would be next as according to the census anyway, and I also discounted Shakerag because he seemed active and aggressive enough. Leaving me with one person who already had the ire of an entire board, and no one else to antagonize. It wasn't a real reason, it was process of elimination. Also, dat run-on sentence.
I swear if this paragraph of pennance gets me attacked for switching opinion, check the opinion I'm switching from. It was "No real point". Now it's "eh, why not". I see little change in opinion, only in execution.
Onyx:A person known for Raeg? How fun. I'm actually going to try a non-BM after this one and from what I can piece together from the conversations and Quad's summary, it should be quite the menagerie. Fun.In other news, I'm lost with these allusions to Org and Dariush. I take it they're common patrons of the other parts of the Mafia board?Dariush is a player known for his RAAAAAAGING at various things, most notably newbies. Org is (was? haven't seen him in a while) a player with a very unique playstyle, mostly consisting of being as intentionally curt and unreadable as possible.
Yes, I think I answered these above. Feel free to ask again, but I think you would be much better off convincing someone else as the clock is ticking. Tick tock, Irony. Tick. Tock.Scumpick? IronyOwl. I read through the reasons, and I feel they are good enough for this lynch. Besides, my vote doesn't exactly carry much weight when the Town has such a nice consensus, does it?This is a lazy, scummy bandwagon. At the very least, you should explain why or which reasons seem good enough.
^Weak reasons? Why, yes. But my vote carries no point or weight beyond some arbitrary ceremonial point. The die have been rolled, the mob formed, and the gallows built. The democracy demands Irony's blood and I have no ability to deny it. So why try?
Perhaps more importantly though, you don't sound terribly convinced, yet you're voting me as your top suspect. What does this say about your reads in general, that even you admit your top, willing-to-shorten-to-lynch-this-scumbag suspect is a shitty, vague, bandwagony copy of everyone else?
Post by: Teneb on March 20, 2013, 08:34:52 pm
FINAL VOTECOUNT:
TheWetSheep(0):
Onyxjew994(0):
Quadressence(1):IronyOwl
notquitethere(0):
Sphagetti7(0):
Tiruin(0):
IronyOwl(4):notquitethere, Quadressence, TheWetSheep, Sphagetti7, Onyxjew994
Not Voting:Tiruin
FLAVOUR, ROLEFLIP AND THREAD LOCK INCOMING
Post by: Teneb on March 20, 2013, 08:37:54 pm
One of the magisters steps forward and says “Quadressentially, we have determined that- wait, my phone is ringing. Please excuse me”. She then proceeds to pull a brick from her robes, hold it against her ear and talk to someone. No one quite understands what she is saying.
“As she was saying” says TheWetSheep, frowning. “We found IronyOwl to be the traitor”
“You can’t do this, I’m not a traitor!” cried IronyOwl.
“Your fate has been decided, scum. Die!” With a wave of his hand, the captain conjures a spike of solid ice, striking the magister in the chest and knocking her back against the wall. IronyOwl slumps to the ground, his last words an unheard whisper.
After a few minutes of investigating his corpse, the captain stands up and announces, “It is with sorrow that I declare that IronyOwl was a loyal magister.” He sighs before continuing. “You will be escorted to your temporary quarters once more.”
IronyOwl has been lynched. He was a Magister.
(NOTE: Being an IC, IronyOwl may still post advice, but is no longer a player)
Post by: Teneb on March 20, 2013, 08:49:06 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 21, 2013, 08:07:03 pm
All but one.
Sphagetti7 was mysteriously missing. Murmurs spread across the room, speculating on what might have caused his absence.
After a long while the battlemagister captain steps into the room and announces: Sphaggeti7 had been found dead in his room, his neck broken. They were currently investigating how the guard didn’t see anything, and meanwhile the discussions would continue.
Sphagetti7 has been killed. He was a Magister
Day ends 25th of March, 22:00 BRT.
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 21, 2013, 08:51:58 pm
I guess it's a bit late, but:
Everyone on the IronyOwl lynch:
Please state why you voted him. Also, post quotes where you stated these reasons before the lynch. Here's mine:
I voted IronyOwl because, as an IC, I was more inclined to be suspicious of him. When he voted for Quad, who I thought was town but an easy target to make look like scum, I was suspicious of him. I didn't have much suspicion on anyone else. Also, Day 2 was weird for me. I spent half of it fighting with Quad, and after that felt like not much of substance was happening. I was also eager for the day to be over for the same reasons. Looking back, I didn't have a very good case on him after all.
Quotes:
IronyOwl: Null leaning scum. Also hasn't done much, although he admitted he's not really able to be active. Passively says "I'm suspicious of everyone"(post 351), and isn't exerting a huge amount of pressure on anybody.
The IC's votes for Quad make me nervous. I'm getting more and more certain that one of them is scum, because I think Quad is an easy target for scum to lynch. She certainly acts it, but I personally don't think she's scummy enough to lynch.Wow. I guess IO was right, I didn't post much on him.
I'm not sure which IC I'm more suspicious of, but since it's unlikely we'll get a Shakerag lynch, I'll go with IronyOwl. Someone needs to break the tie anyway.
I can't let the IO bandwagon make me too suspicious of anyone on it, since I was on it too, but I will be paying closer attention to those people.
NQT: Do you agree that your vote on Flying Dice doesn't make you towny, as I showed earlier? Also, you missed a question:
NQT:Wet SheepHow could you have known what would happen beforehand?NQT: What do you think of my idea that you are experimenting in bussing?Nice theory, but I would only really experiment with a tactic that I thought likely to work. And bussing in this case was not likely to work. (After all, am I not suspected of bussing now?)
I'm out of time. More later.
Post by: notquitethere on March 22, 2013, 05:10:38 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sheep, the fact that I was sent the town role PM by Deathsword makes me towny, not anything I've said or done in game. How you form your doubts and interpret my votes is up to you. I'm done with this bussing argument. Maybe I wouldn't have known bussing would be suspected, maybe I would. You've just got to ask yourself, should you drink the wine in front of me?
Post by: Quadressence on March 22, 2013, 10:51:01 am
Post by: Spaghetti7 on March 22, 2013, 12:00:02 pm
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 22, 2013, 05:35:06 pm
Quad:
Quad:Care to elaborate?You state being bouncy and lacking focus to be a town-tell. I know you're a fan of chaos, but I would think it's a scumtell, because it means they lack devotion and don't care about who they lynch. Unless we have different meanings for bouncy.we have different meanings for bouncyEither way, not fit to be scum.
Onyx:
Onyx: You said a while ago(post # 364) that you were going to give us your reads. Could you give them now?
Another thing. In Day 2 I was much in favour of finding consensus, as were you. Unfortunately, that led to a bandwagon in which scum could easily conceal themselves, and with very few reasons. Looking at the old way, I think it's better. Do you agree?
Post by: Vector on March 22, 2013, 06:59:49 pm
As such, I'd actually prefer it if people thought I was brilliant scum instead of retard town. I know how to use WIFOM. I've read all of their styles. Toonyman's aggression. Org's chaos. Webadict's manipulation. Vector's cunning. Leafsnail's adaptiveness. Dakarian's brilliance. Pandarsenic's unreadability. Jim Groovester's leadership. Toaster's planning. Bookthras's persuasiveness. Dariush's bravery. So many styles to absorb as you read along. And, I think I can do it. I think I could be brilliant scum. So brilliant you wouldn't even know I was scum. So, don't write me off. I know how to be scum. I want to be unable to be written off. I want a status among the gods. I want to enter the pantheon. I will be known for something, even if I don't know it yet.
I want to never be written off. Town will be wary of me. Scum will fear me. First to die at night. Last to live during the day.
I want to live forever.
Well, well, well. I look forward to facing you on the field of battle. . . or examining your back, rather ;)
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 22, 2013, 07:06:23 pm
Should be about why.Onyx has no reasons whatsoever except that he might as well bandwagon, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4118862#msg4118862) his only justification apparently being a 180 from "I don't have any overt suspicion of IronyOwl" to "I've reread and everyone else's case seems good so let's go with that, which sucks but all the cool kids are doing it anyway." Like NQT and TheSheep, he's also opposing any extensions with that magnificent case in place.I suppose this is the part where your violent snap-back is going to kill all of our poorly placed assumptions and save you? A fair idea, actually. I don't quite like your tone, but I admit I was rash. You at least deserve a chance to defend yourself before we dogpile and murder you. Cute thing being, you just did. I don't plan on extending just to keep this game going. I now find Spaghetti scummier than you just because I haven't really made much of anyone but Quad, Sheep, and You. Gaze fairly upon this magnificent tapestry, I completely forgot Spaghetti and even so don't have nearly enough to make a case, I disregarded NQT because voting him would have no effect or point, you were already going down and he would be next as according to the census anyway, and I also discounted Shakerag because he seemed active and aggressive enough. Leaving me with one person who already had the ire of an entire board, and no one else to antagonize. It wasn't a real reason, it was process of elimination. Also, dat run-on sentence.
I swear if this paragraph of pennance gets me attacked for switching opinion, check the opinion I'm switching from. It was "No real point". Now it's "eh, why not". I see little change in opinion, only in execution.Onyx:A person known for Raeg? How fun. I'm actually going to try a non-BM after this one and from what I can piece together from the conversations and Quad's summary, it should be quite the menagerie. Fun.In other news, I'm lost with these allusions to Org and Dariush. I take it they're common patrons of the other parts of the Mafia board?Dariush is a player known for his RAAAAAAGING at various things, most notably newbies. Org is (was? haven't seen him in a while) a player with a very unique playstyle, mostly consisting of being as intentionally curt and unreadable as possible.Yes, I think I answered these above. Feel free to ask again, but I think you would be much better off convincing someone else as the clock is ticking. Tick tock, Irony. Tick. Tock.Scumpick? IronyOwl. I read through the reasons, and I feel they are good enough for this lynch. Besides, my vote doesn't exactly carry much weight when the Town has such a nice consensus, does it?This is a lazy, scummy bandwagon. At the very least, you should explain why or which reasons seem good enough.
^Weak reasons? Why, yes. But my vote carries no point or weight beyond some arbitrary ceremonial point. The die have been rolled, the mob formed, and the gallows built. The democracy demands Irony's blood and I have no ability to deny it. So why try?
Perhaps more importantly though, you don't sound terribly convinced, yet you're voting me as your top suspect. What does this say about your reads in general, that even you admit your top, willing-to-shorten-to-lynch-this-scumbag suspect is a shitty, vague, bandwagony copy of everyone else?
In other news, crap. I can't honestly say this was too unexpected, but with Spaghetti dead as well, I'm out of leads.
Suppose that leaves me with either the consensus was right before, which didn't prove well with Irony, and that means NQT is the remaining scum. Not exactly going with that one, or...
I was wrong about someone.
Edit: No, wait. Just reread the listings. Could just be Tiruin. I'm lost again.
Onyx:Answered that one twice now. Not doing it again unless I'm given a decent reason.Onyx: You said a while ago(post # 364) that you were going to give us your reads. Could you give them now?
Another thing. In Day 2 I was much in favour of finding consensus, as were you. Unfortunately, that led to a bandwagon in which scum could easily conceal themselves, and with very few reasons. Looking at the old way, I think it's better. Do you agree?That's a bit subjective, truthfully. We did work well enough on Remuthra/Dice, and now you're flipping because it has now failed on Irony. Not really a conclusive finding, truth be told. At least not on those facts alone. I think we just got lucky with Remuthra because, no offense here, he was kind of obvious.
Short Answer: Yes.
Post by: notquitethere on March 22, 2013, 07:40:11 pm
To answer your question:
Quote
When scumhunting in this particular thread, do you believe that you should point out every detail of your target's post in trying to catch them, or work on their more prominent points and discard the small quirks? And why?I really wish I had the time to do a point by point breakdown of everyone but I'm not even sure it would be helpful. My scumhunting technique is: Shortlist the most likely suspects (by looking at vote patterns, for instance). Look at what these suspects have said and done. 3. Examine my own prejudices. 4. Search inside myself for my true feelings. 5. Repeat process. 6. Make a vote. My process failed with Owl: I ran out of time and ignored my intuitions and didn't do enough repeat analysis. You know what, I even had a vote ready to paste in at the deadline a few days back on the 18th when there was a draw. Here, I still have it written down:
Quote
Unvote
Once again I find myself in the position of the hangman. I have only one choice: Quad must die. Though I and many others have suspected her and Borno, I'm not 100% convinced of her guilt: but we learn much by her death. If she flips scum, we've won. If she flips town, it reconfirms the pressure I had on Owl and Shakerag earlier.
Of course someone else broke the tie and we would have killed IO then were it not for the extend. Who was it that broke it... Oh, it was Sheep. Why kill the Owl, Sheep?
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 22, 2013, 08:07:37 pm
Onyx: Oh right, sorry about that. I don't know what I was thinking.
Post by: notquitethere on March 23, 2013, 05:17:11 am
Post by: Tiruin on March 23, 2013, 06:13:24 am
Onyxjew994
Quadressence
notquitethere
Tiruin
Hello and Good Morning everyone. My name is Tiruin and I'll be your
Oh dear, it seems my crew have lifted off without me.
Cursed timezones.
{Alright, first of all - IronyOwl is dead > This doesn't stop him from posting though, as he is an IC which means he would pop in on occasional intervals to give in advice and information.
As for me, I'm a replacement. This doesn't mean that if you had any suspicions to Shakerag, you'd drop it because the rep is an entirely new person - press it for information's sake.
The scene stands as such:
1 Mafia
4 Town
Use your time wisely - if we mislynch and NK occurs, we're set at LYLO - lynch or lose. In my opinion, this is the time of day we get things settled down between each other. Those who are unsure about their target - press them and reach a reasonable conclusion. Those who are sure - try to dig on your target or branch out.
@Scum: Stay sharp. Follow what UI says. You're outnumbered, but there's still hope while you breath.
But we'll burn the bridge when we get there, aye?
Note that my IC voice will be neutral.}
@Quadressence: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4119076#msg4119076) I love RP as much as you do (;D), and we even have italics for signifying roleplaying statements, but I'm pretty glad at how you act.
Also, to state ahead of time (because reading while spectator'ing >.>), I've to ask you this siiiiimple question.
> Say, you're town. Do you think that your life is more important than information? Meaning: Should you live in a scenario wherein people want you hanged? What would you do to enforce your choice - regardless of your answer?
Also, get well soon!
I stated my reasons at the end of the previous day. I'd like to post right now, but it's a nice day today, so I think I'll wait a bit.{Eep. Not that good of an indication - suspicious and paranoid people like me (meaning nitpick for scumhunt) would mostly poke at simple things like these - but don't worry that while you've got online time, you're going to enjoy your RL self at the moment.
This is me just saying "You don't need to note down every moment of your time, because its trivial" - in a good way. Enjoy the day :D
Because Lurking often pertains to "Gone for a day or two on end, not bothering to reply/post, [People check profile > last logged in: Today]"
Regardless, nice days are nice. I'm glad that you're spending both your time and enjoyment equally :P}
TheWetSheep: Do you think everyone on the Owl's tail (heh, sorry Irony XD), as I guess you meant here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4121583#msg4121583) are suspicious? Why didn't you poke at those who weren't on said tail?
Who'ya votin' by the way, given your suspicions? Why blue, instead of red?
NQT
Tiruin, I think you might have been in every game I've played, you and Ford. It wouldn't be the same without youAww thanks ^^, and hai to you too! (Loved that breakdown btw)
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4122286#msg4122286), you say you want (or say that 'we' should've gotten) Quad lynched...and color her name in blue? What gives, bro? Do you think that "if only because the collective suspicious against Quad/Borno followed the same pattern as Remuthra/FD" equals a compelling case against her?
Sheep, the fact that I was sent the town role PM by Deathsword makes me towny, not anything I've said or done in game. How you form your doubts and interpret my votes is up to you. I'm done with this bussing argument. Maybe I wouldn't have known bussing would be suspected, maybe I would. You've just got to ask yourself, should you drink the wine in front of me?Bolded part is fluff. Fluff is fluffy. It's not much of a use though.
Why state that part when there seems to be a contradicting belief present?
Onyxjew:
Quote
In other news, crap. I can't honestly say this was too unexpected, but with Spaghetti dead as well, I'm out of leads.@_@
Suppose that leaves me with either the consensus was right before, which didn't prove well with Irony, and that means NQT is the remaining scum. Not exactly going with that one, or...
I was wrong about someone.
Edit: No, wait. Just reread the listings. Could just be Tiruin. I'm lost again.
{Half-guessing isn't a good idea of planning and aiding your team...while it exudes honesty, it shows that you're practically lost - something people would poke at.}
Which I'll do right now.
Since you're out of leads, then what? Begin from a new point or don't mention that you're lacking in reads, but start a new one by asking others questions pertaining to what they did beforehand.
Other than guessing, who do you think are scum, and for what reasons?
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 23, 2013, 12:37:55 pm
TheWetSheep: Do you think everyone on the Owl's tail (heh, sorry Irony XD), as I guess you meant here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4121583#msg4121583) are suspicious? Why didn't you poke at those who weren't on said tail?Being on the lynch merits more suspicion than not being on the lynch, but I'm not going to ignore whoever wasn't on it. (By the way, you are the only live person who wasn't on it)
Quote
Who'ya votin' by the way, given your suspicions? Why blue, instead of red?I'm not going to vote until I see more. I don't want to vote NQT just because I was suspicious of him yesterday. Things have changed. I do still find him the most suspicious, though.
Also, how much of your vote for Onyx is just pressuring him into questioning others? It seems from your post you're more suspicious of NQT.
I'm going to be gone for about three days next week. Is that long enough to need a replacement?
Post by: Tiruin on March 23, 2013, 12:48:11 pm
{While I can't say that not voting is a bad thing, the presence of a vote can cause multiple reactions in the receiver - mainly, curiosity.QuoteWho'ya votin' by the way, given your suspicions? Why blue, instead of red?I'm not going to vote until I see more. I don't want to vote NQT just because I was suspicious of him yesterday. Things have changed. I do still find him the most suspicious, though.
The receiver would then, mostly, comply more to answer the question or react to the statement addressed to them because for the main matter that he/she was voted.
Also, psychological warfare. You want to pressure your suspicions, aye? What are you doing if -you still find [person] suspicious?}
Quote
Also, how much of your vote for Onyx is just pressuring him into questioning others? It seems from your post you're more suspicious of NQT.Depends on his answer. You're concerned, why?
Quote
Preferably no, but I'll let the veterans speak more upon this. Or....if you can make detailed posts - like what you're doing btw - its all fine.
I'm going to be gone for about three days next week. Is that long enough to need a replacement?
Or I'll let DS reply. :P
By next week you mean weekday right?
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 23, 2013, 05:18:52 pm
NQT:
Well that's an embuggerance. I voted Irony Owl because of the reasons I stated a week ago.Now, this may seem a bit paranoid, but it seems to me that a possible scum thought process of yours would go like this: "Sheep voted for IronyOwl because he voted Quad. Irony turned out town, and Sheep seemed very regretful that he was on that mislynch. Surely he won't vote me because I am suspicious of Quad." Especially since you showed very little suspicion of Quad up until that point. Anyway, I think my reasoning still holds up, but in Irony's case it was accompanied by very little else Hmm, now I can't think of a question to ask you about this, so I'll go with a generic one: What do you think about this?But look, I realise now that it was a lousy case. Owl, I'm sorry. I did no decent analysis in the last week and frankly we should have lynched Quad when we had the chance a few days back, if only because the collective suspicious against Quad/Borno followed the same pattern as Remuthra/FD and I should have stuck to my guns on that point. The only excuse I can offer is that I've just started a new job and I have orders of magnitude less time than before. There's only so much effort I have time and will to give to the game, and so opposing extensions was my way of limiting my effort expenditure, but I shouldn't have done so before being more certain than I was.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sheep, the fact that I was sent the town role PM by Deathsword makes me towny, not anything I've said or done in game. How you form your doubts and interpret my votes is up to you. I'm done with this bussing argument. Maybe I wouldn't have known bussing would be suspected, maybe I would. You've just got to ask yourself, should you drink the wine in front of me?
The second paragraph, the one addressed to me, seems a bit defeatist in attitude. I can't see a reason for town to be acting defeatist, since we've only had one mislynch. Am I right in reading the tone of that paragraph as defeatist?
Tiruin:
I don't have too many leads. I'm just trying to ask questions and find scum, and I'll latch onto anything I can find. Just above that quote you told me to pressure my suspicions, and you're second on my suspicion list(not from anything you did, mainly by process of elimination).QuoteAlso, how much of your vote for Onyx is just pressuring him into questioning others? It seems from your post you're more suspicious of NQT.Depends on his answer. You're concerned, why?
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 23, 2013, 06:13:06 pm
Onyxjew:QuoteIn other news, crap. I can't honestly say this was too unexpected, but with Spaghetti dead as well, I'm out of leads.@_@
Suppose that leaves me with either the consensus was right before, which didn't prove well with Irony, and that means NQT is the remaining scum. Not exactly going with that one, or...
I was wrong about someone.
Edit: No, wait. Just reread the listings. Could just be Tiruin. I'm lost again.
{Half-guessing isn't a good idea of planning and aiding your team...while it exudes honesty, it shows that you're practically lost - something people would poke at.}
Which I'll do right now.
Since you're out of leads, then what? Begin from a new point or don't mention that you're lacking in reads, but start a new one by asking others questions pertaining to what they did beforehand.
Other than guessing, who do you think are scum, and for what reasons?
Currently, I am at a loss. If I were absolutely required to vote for someone at this very moment, I would have to vote for NQT. I don't have a very solid read on you, by you I mean Tiruin, I have no reason to suspect Sheep or Quad as I've said many times, and I then have no one remaining to suspect. Weak reasoning, I know. Mostly because I am quite possibly wrong about any of my personally crafted Masons. That being said, I have nothing else at the moment. I'll be attempting piteously to remedy that now.
Tiruin, where did you disappear off to earlier?
More importantly, who would you have voted for if you had been here for the lynch?
NQT, why did you think Quad should be lynched? Is "scum-check" your entire reasoning for your suspicions?
Post by: Quadressence on March 23, 2013, 08:47:19 pm
@Quadressence: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4119076#msg4119076) I love RP as much as you do (;D), and we even have italics for signifying roleplaying statements, but I'm pretty glad at how you act.I don't know, italics are kind of hard to see. I just like asterisks a bit better. Maybe I can do both.
Also, to state ahead of time (because reading while spectator'ing >.>), I've to ask you this siiiiimple question.
> Say, you're town. Do you think that your life is more important than information? Meaning: Should you live in a scenario wherein people want you hanged? What would you do to enforce your choice - regardless of your answer?
Also, get well soon!I stated my reasons at the end of the previous day. I'd like to post right now, but it's a nice day today, so I think I'll wait a bit.{Eep. Not that good of an indication - suspicious and paranoid people like me (meaning nitpick for scumhunt) would mostly poke at simple things like these - but don't worry that while you've got online time, you're going to enjoy your RL self at the moment.
This is me just saying "You don't need to note down every moment of your time, because its trivial" - in a good way. Enjoy the day :D
Because Lurking often pertains to "Gone for a day or two on end, not bothering to reply/post, [People check profile > last logged in: Today]"
Regardless, nice days are nice. I'm glad that you're spending both your time and enjoyment equally :P}
*Quadressence quickly sets up a changing booth and jumps in. Clothes and other knickknacks fly out while the booth flails around almost comically. She exits the booth, sporting a two-piece, sandals, and a beachball!*
Hmm, okay. It passes. *She puts on a pair of sunglasses.* :P
Okay, now for your question: That depends. Just because I'm town doesn't mean my life isn't important. There's a lot to consider. Is the information enough to win the game? Will my death lose the game? Are you asking me to lynch myself? Because that's stupid. Why would I want to lynch myself? When I die, everyone else gains information. I don't. I already have that information. What I lose is my ability to affect the game. It wouldn't matter if I knew who scum were, I'd be dead. So, do I think it's worth it? No. Never. It's only a bonus for everyone else alive. My team might gain something, but I lose a lot. I'd simply be pushing all of my hopes onto them.
What would I do to enforce my choice? Continue to do what I always do, of course! It's silly to push your hopes onto your team. You don't know what they can accomplish, and you have no say over what they do. Look at what happens in past games, and you'll realize that you can only fight back while you're alive. Giving up isn't an option.
And it wasn't noting my time. I just have an odd schedule, and I wanted to contribute before I left, even if it was a small bit. So, I said, "Quad, you tell them that it's a nice day out, and you'll be back later." So, I did.
Sheep, the fact that I was sent the town role PM by Deathsword makes me towny, not anything I've said or done in game. How you form your doubts and interpret my votes is up to you. I'm done with this bussing argument. Maybe I wouldn't have known bussing would be suspected, maybe I would. You've just got to ask yourself, should you drink the wine in front of me?No, it doesn't. Getting sent the role pm makes you town. Not townie. What you say or do makes you townie. What you are makes you town or scum.
And you've just initiated a challenge, whether you realize it or not. You see, I've been studying. *She pulls out her backpack and empties its contents onto the floor. Books of various sizes, all on the topic of WIFOM, toss about as they hit the dirt. A wicked smile appears across her face.*
You see, I'm not the kind of lady that just passes up an offer to best someone.
*She makes a slight gesture with her hand and a martini appears. She makes a face as she pulls out the olive and throws it.*
So, I'll drink to that, notquitethere.
You've already poisoned both cups without even setting them up. No townie would ever set that up. You never put those glasses out for us. This is the negative WIFOM I was talking about. The correct choice is to lynch you. That's a choice, right? That's what I answered when I asked myself, so I guess so.
Some missed questions:Hmm, like, it'd either be more or less extreme as scum. You're in the middle, and so you're believable in your waiving. When you do change your mind about something, it's because you thought about it. This is a dumb way to put it, but you don't seem fake, and I believe your rationale.
Quad:Quad:Care to elaborate?You state being bouncy and lacking focus to be a town-tell. I know you're a fan of chaos, but I would think it's a scumtell, because it means they lack devotion and don't care about who they lynch. Unless we have different meanings for bouncy.we have different meanings for bouncyEither way, not fit to be scum.
Well, well, well. I look forward to facing you on the field of battle. . . or examining your back, rather ;)Nyahahaha! >:D
NQT, why did you think Quad should be lynched? Is "scum-check" your entire reasoning for your suspicions?I believe it's because he can't find an excuse to lynch anyone else. I'm an easy target, so lynching me should appease many people, and keep him off the hook for another day.
I know my switch seems out of nowhere, but he issued a direct challenge to every single townie. He called us all pussies, and I can't stand for that.
You've just got to ask yourself, should you drink the wine in front of me?Translates directly to "Wanna prove it by lynching me?"
*A rope appears in the swimmer's hands. She quickly ties it into a noose.*
Let's wrassle ourselves up a scum!
You want to use WIFOM in a better manner? Think about who would want to kill Spaghetti7. Spaghetti7 wasn't townie at all. He was, at best, neutral or, at worst, scummy.
TheWetSheep wouldn't do that. He'd probably either kill me to make himself look good or Tiruin to keep me alive as a patsy. Spaghetti7 and Onyxjew would be easy targets to lynch, and we'd set up one of those todays, followed by killing the other one the next night. He'd be clean.
Tiruin might do that. He'd be able to make a decent case against Onyxjew at the very least, and maybe me if he tried hard. But, Tiruin would be better off killing TheWetSheep. He's too trusted to let live, and it wouldn't make him suspicious, either.
I might do that for the same reasons as Tiruin, but I'd much rather kill TheWetSheep to get rid of him. He's an important factor in the town.
Onyxjew would do that only if he honestly believed Spaghetti7 was a better target than TheWetSheep, which I just don't see happening. He'd be better off killing almost anyone else, so it just doesn't seem possible. Probably Tiruin or TheWetSheep.
notquitethere would do that. Keeping me alive would be crux, because I already wrote him off as town. He could leave Onyxjew or me as the scapegoat for the last day, and let either one of us get lynched today. It's a simple matter of not being the most or least suspicious person at the end.
But, that's all speculation. Anyone that gives me a choice with wine will be disappointed.
Post by: Tiruin on March 23, 2013, 10:17:38 pm
PFP - My post coming later, busy drawing/writing atm :PWell, well, well. I look forward to facing you on the field of battle. . . or examining your back, rather ;)Nyahahaha! >:D
Vector is deadly, more than a worthy opponent. ^^
Post by: notquitethere on March 24, 2013, 05:14:26 pm
Above Suspicion
Onyxjew994
notquitethere
Dead
Flying Dice
Captain Ford
Ironyowl
Spaghetti7
Worthy of Suspicion
Tiruin
Quadressence
WetSheep
Vote Analysis
Flying Dice was the most suspected player at the time of his lynch, that's why I did him in. Wisdom of the crowd. Who's the most suspected player now? Quadressence.
Some possible dead ends:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quad is evasive and highly suspected. Quad replaced Borno, who jumped out to me as the most scummiest player on my first read of the game. Borno was also heavily suspected by confirmed town members Ford (two votes against), and Borno likewise had two votes against Ford. Borno was first suspected by confirmed town IronyOwl (2 votes against Borno/Quad), and in turn Quad was on the Owl lynch (admittedly, following my lead- though for inadequately explained reasons). Spaghetti also has a vote and a FOS on Borno. I don't always trust my own instincts, and I while I am unknown quantity to you all, I can't expect you too either. But surely you can trust the collectively wisdom of three dead townies?
But look, I felt this righteous about Owl before- mostly because I didn't dig deep enough into the other suspects. So I'll do that too.
Shakerag/Tiruin combo have been mostly level-headed and investigative. But they're more experienced, so maybe we shouldn't read too much into this. Unless I missed it, no one has ever had a vote against Shakerag/Tiruin. Well, maybe they're both active-lurking masters. What was their votes on the three confirmed town? Uh... none. Shakerag had a couple of FOSes on Ford, but liberal FOSing is his style (Shakerag/Tiruin have FOSed twice as much as the next most liberal FOSer, moi). I can't rule out the possibility that these two are mafia gods, but vote-analysis-wise there's nothing there.
Nerjin/SD/Wetsheep have been rational and have given honest appraisal of others (or so say my notes). They voted Ford in the RVS, and were on the Owl lynch with everyone else bar Tiruin and Owl himself. Ford and Owl never suspected them enough to vote against them (though Nerjin/SD were absent for much of the game). Spag voted Nerjin twice but one was an RVS vote, and the other was a pressure vote. It's not inconceivable, and smart scum would want to be standoffish, but what we can get from this is that the innocent dead never really suspected them.
So on appraising the others, Quad still comes up suspicious.
But look, what if I'm wrong about bussing and what if Soldier/Onyx are guilty? But look that doesn't make sense. It had been my firm conviction from my first read of the game that The Soldier was as town as it was possible to be. He was earnest and rigorous in his hunting. But let's have a look what the votes say. Spaghetti never voted for Soldier/Onyx, Ford only had an RVS and Owl had a pressure vote. Soldier/Onyx never had a vote on Ford, though he did have one on Spaghetti and he was in on the Owl-wagon, though at the time he voted there was bugger-all he could do about the situation. I think the fact he was on FD's lynch swings its for me, and the analysis doesn't show him to have been particularly suspected- to put it into context at the time of writing this Soldier/Onyx have had one vote on them that wasn't just a pressure or random vote, while Borno/Quad has had 8 votes against, not counting RVS.
About mid-way through after Borno left, I said to Ford that I would wait and see how Borno acted before re-pressing my case. Well consider this me re-pressing my case against the Borno/Quadressence combo.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 24, 2013, 08:39:04 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 24, 2013, 10:07:29 pm
Well, that or WIFOM or random guesses or something. Let's not use WIFOM or random guesses or something, shall we?
Speaking of which, if you're having trouble scumhunting someone, you may be overthinking things. The point of scumhunting is to learn more about the person, so there's a wide range of topics that can accomplish that. Things they've said or done in the past that you're curious about, current or past events that they never commented on, and current reads or interpretations of certain events can all be valid lines of scumhunting questioning.
Finally, remember that you can look back on past events and statements with the knowledge that certain people were town or scum. It's important not to read too much into this, since hindsight is 20/20, but if nothing else, you can know that scum were being malicious and town were being benign. Note that being benign doesn't make someone correct, especially since people who get themselves lynched have a tendency to be less skilled, but it does mean that they meant what they said.
Post by: Quadressence on March 25, 2013, 02:03:41 am
Your reasoning is so impersonal. How am I supposed to combat the charge of "she's the most suspected?" I don't know if I'm the most suspected, because that relies on other people. That's assuming it mattered.
Your entire post is silly. I'm charged with evasiveness and highly suspectedness. Evasiveness, I can argue against. I'm against answering questions if they are silly or if they are demeaning. I do not take well to anyone telling me what to do. I have plenty of that in real life. Otherwise, I have given what I deemed necessary.
As for highly suspectedness, I don't think being bandwagoned is a scummy.
On the other hand, bandwagoning is scummy, which you're advocating for as an excuse to explain why someone is scummy. Your vote isn't back by much reasoning, either.
You, on the other hand, haven't explained why you'd bother to WIFOM the town. WIFOMing the town is so not cool. Can I also point out that you're hiding behind your theory? There's no rationale behind it. It uses other people's suspicions for your own, let's them bother with the reasoning, and you can just sit back and pretend like you're doing something.
Can you at least pretend to make a case against me that doesn't invole your stupid theory that's stupidly false?
I want everyone to point out I suspected Quadressence before I died. Bla bla bla! Also, stupid WIFOM stuff.I get it. I was wrong about you. Congrats on being wrong about me. (Spoiler alert: I'm town. Feel free to ask Deathsword if you don't like being uncertain.) And I'm not using WIFOM to suspect notquitethere. I've used WIFOM to supplement my argument, but I'm not using WIFOM as my reason to vote him.
Also, statements are fine. As proof, look how I totally responded to his accusations that were totally not questions. What you really need are examples. Examples could really help.
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 07:36:41 am
Question: if not you then who and why?
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 25, 2013, 10:01:33 am
This is my last day here for a few. I'll try to make more detailed posts later.
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 10:32:04 am
This isn't my final word on the matter and I hope to look back on some of the interactions I mentioned (later, when I'm not at work). Forgive me though if I don't take your's and Quad's skepticism too seriously: it is exactly this scum hunting technique that netted us the Flying Dice kill.
Post by: Quadressence on March 25, 2013, 10:57:10 am
Quad- I'll break it down: often scummy people avoid getting lynched because they don't get enough votes on them at the right time. That was happening to Flying Dice and if you look back, that's why I put the lynch vote on FD. The same pattern can be seen in your case: all the confirmed town suspected you or Borno for different reasons. I can't expect any of you to trust me unconditionally, but you should be able to trust the judgement of confirmed town. Rest assured, it's my full intention to go back and re-inspect people's interactions (especially Borno/Remuthra). I might well be wrong and you and Borno could just have both been highly unfortunate; I will continue to investigate the record.Do you not see it? Your argument is impersonal. "Scummy people." You don't bother to list why I'm scummy except for evasiveness. No examples either, though that's tough without reasons. But, overall, your argument doesn't even apply to solely me. Anyone town has suspected ever could be interspersed in there. Heck, even you could. It's like your personal get out of jail free card.
Question: if not you then who and why?
Don't try to call me unfortunate. I'm completely assured you have no ulterior motives, and your continued investigation into the matter can only satisfy my worries that you're not some autonomous connection of data nodes. You sound like a company issuing an apology letter for a complaint.
And your question is silly. It means nothing to me. I already said you. You gave me a choice, and I chose to lynch you. Don't put that in front of us if you weren't okay with it.
I agree completely that confirmed town don't have any special epistemological insights that we lack. However, the fact that all three confirmed town suspected Borno or Quad or both for different reasons is at the very least suggestive.Yeah. How dare I question my own alignment. Those three dead people clearly knew more about it than I do.
This isn't my final word on the matter and I hope to look back on some of the interactions I mentioned (later, when I'm not at work). Forgive me though if I don't take your's and Quad's skepticism too seriously: it is exactly this scum hunting technique that netted us the Flying Dice kill.
I don't care if you use them to further your own argument, but I do care that you don't even have one. Your argument is that people suspect me and therefore I'm scum. Is there anything else? Or am I just going to be hit by an obligatory countervote?
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 11:01:48 am
What is it about me that means I'm more likely to be scum than another living player?
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 25, 2013, 11:45:15 am
Bah. I tried reading through NQT's posts in Day 1, but can't really focus on my read-through enough to really pressure him on that stuff. That being said, I found this recent post somewhat suspicious:
NQT:Well that's an embuggerance. I voted Irony Owl because of the reasons I stated a week ago.Now, this may seem a bit paranoid, but it seems to me that a possible scum thought process of yours would go like this: "Sheep voted for IronyOwl because he voted Quad. Irony turned out town, and Sheep seemed very regretful that he was on that mislynch. Surely he won't vote me because I am suspicious of Quad." Especially since you showed very little suspicion of Quad up until that point. Anyway, I think my reasoning still holds up, but in Irony's case it was accompanied by very little else Hmm, now I can't think of a question to ask you about this, so I'll go with a generic one: What do you think about this?But look, I realise now that it was a lousy case. Owl, I'm sorry. I did no decent analysis in the last week and frankly we should have lynched Quad when we had the chance a few days back, if only because the collective suspicious against Quad/Borno followed the same pattern as Remuthra/FD and I should have stuck to my guns on that point. The only excuse I can offer is that I've just started a new job and I have orders of magnitude less time than before. There's only so much effort I have time and will to give to the game, and so opposing extensions was my way of limiting my effort expenditure, but I shouldn't have done so before being more certain than I was.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sheep, the fact that I was sent the town role PM by Deathsword makes me towny, not anything I've said or done in game. How you form your doubts and interpret my votes is up to you. I'm done with this bussing argument. Maybe I wouldn't have known bussing would be suspected, maybe I would. You've just got to ask yourself, should you drink the wine in front of me?
The second paragraph, the one addressed to me, seems a bit defeatist in attitude. I can't see a reason for town to be acting defeatist, since we've only had one mislynch. Am I right in reading the tone of that paragraph as defeatist?
OnyxJew: Say that tomorrow you're alive in LyLo with me and Quad. What would you do?
Tiruin: Are you going to remove that pressure vote? The only reasoning that accompanied that vote was asking him if he was going to press people. Sure, not pressuring people could be seen as scummy, but a) he's said repeatedly he's busy and b) he's not been very confident the whole way through. Are you really more suspicious of him than anyone else?
Quad:
(Spoiler alert: I'm town. Feel free to ask Deathsword if you don't like being uncertain.)Why did you post this? Simply for IronyOwl, or did you think it would make you look more towny?
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 12:21:08 pm
Quote
Now, this may seem a bit paranoid, but it seems to me that a possible scum thought process of yours would go like this: "Sheep voted for IronyOwl because he voted Quad. Irony turned out town, and Sheep seemed very regretful that he was on that mislynch. Surely he won't vote me because I am suspicious of Quad." Especially since you showed very little suspicion of Quad up until that point. Anyway, I think my reasoning still holds up, but in Irony's case it was accompanied by very little else Hmm, now I can't think of a question to ask you about this, so I'll go with a generic one: What do you think about this?As I was blinkered in pursuing my mistaken case on Owl, I didn't say much (if anything) on Quad's behaviour, though my suspicions of Borno (Quad's predecessor) were extensive and well-documented. I can't say anything about the plausibility of the hypothetical thought process you outlined. I never thought that way, but me saying this is obviously not very compelling in and of itself. I've earlier given reasons why, if I was one of you guys, I wouldn't think I was scum but I don't think it's productive to press the point. The current case I'm building against Quad works regardless of my trustworthiness as it's based on how everyone in the game has voted so far.
Quote
The second paragraph, the one addressed to me, seems a bit defeatist in attitude. I can't see a reason for town to be acting defeatist, since we've only had one mislynch. Am I right in reading the tone of that paragraph as defeatist?I'm always disappointed when town has a mislynch. I can remember in my first BM fighting tooth-and-nail to save Scientist from being mislynched, and it was very disappointing when I failed and town killed town. Here I'm extra-disappointed because I led the ill-fated lynch and that's not something to be proud of. Of course, it's only one mislynch and we can afford another one before entering LYLO.
If anyone else had any questions I missed, do point them out: I only had time to do my vote analysis last night, I'm not deliberately ignoring questions.
Post by: Quadressence on March 25, 2013, 12:22:03 pm
Quad:Well, no. I just feel like he's biased against me, and it makes me feel better to have him know he's wrong.(Spoiler alert: I'm town. Feel free to ask Deathsword if you don't like being uncertain.)Why did you post this? Simply for IronyOwl, or did you think it would make you look more towny?
My argument is not "people suspect you and therefore you are scum", but rather: collectively, you and Borno have been suspected by more people more often than anyone else alive, including by all three confirmed town, and therefore you are the strongest candidate for suspicion. I don't know you're scum yet.How is that not the same? Or are you trying to make it better by telling me you don't know I'm scum? Because it doesn't. It makes you look weak.
What is it about me that means I'm more likely to be scum than another living player?
And I already told you. You gave me a choice. And I chose to lynch you. It'd be like voting for yourself. If you're okay with being lynched, then who am I to disagree?
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 12:25:20 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 25, 2013, 03:40:20 pm
Onyxjew994(1):Tiruin
Quadressence(1):notquitethere
notquitethere(2):Quadressence, TheWetSheep
Tiruin(0):
Not Voting: Onyxjew994
0 votes for extension
Day ends today at 22:00 BRT
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 03:46:16 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 25, 2013, 04:01:30 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 25, 2013, 04:03:23 pm
Post by: Quadressence on March 25, 2013, 04:08:30 pm
Ironyowl is right, questioning your scum target is very fruitful. Your case against me is just OMGUS; this isn't making you look any less scummy.I think you're confused. Not only am I the one asking you questions (In contrast to you not asking me any), my case is not OMGUS. I think you need to better argue your case if you're going to try and say mine is OMGUS. Especially since you voted me second.
I'd say nice try, but it's actually not a nice try.
And have as much time as you want. Extend.
PPE: Aaand, ninjas.
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 04:24:44 pm
(In which I look at the Borno-Remuthra connection)
#147 despite just voting for Borno, Remuthra says he's has a null read on him
All throughout the first part of the game, well past the RVS, Borno and Remuthra keep sending softball questions back and forth, simulating mutual hunting. They both have a vote on one another near the beginning and both withdrew before any deadline approached.
#179 Remuthra leaves Borno out of his 'lean list'
#183 Shakerag grills Remuthra on his bullshit and his faux-pressure on Borno.
#186 Remuthra says Borno wasn't doing anything suspicious. Keep in mind Remmie was dropping scumtells like they were hot and it wouldn't be surprising at all to see him inadvertently give away his scum partner.
#240 FD says Borno is mildly scummy before launching into a great argument in favour of Spaghetti's lynch.
#247 FD heavily implies Borno is flailing town and proceeds to FOS him (which I know from experience can be a low-risk distancing tool)
Quad- do you have a similar evidence-based case against me?
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 04:27:31 pm
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 25, 2013, 10:32:18 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 04:46:58 am
Onyx
Tiruin, where did you disappear off to earlier?Several areas:
1. Sleep.
2. Hobbies like Digital/Graphite art//Writing
3. My local vicinity which includes the neighboring city and farmlands
4. Exercise. Because its boring without a daily job >.>
Quote
More importantly, who would you have voted for if you had been here for the lynch?> TBH, I wouldn't have voted anyone at that point as...well, my playstyle revolves around me getting my own questions and formulating my guesses around what I get in return. Looking at everyone from a spectator viewpoint verges on true neutrality, because I'm basing everything from an objective viewpoint.
Also, Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4125932#msg4125932) you say notes about you being worried. Ok, that's understandable. You say your reads and say you're quite possibly wrong, understandable given that there's one scum left.
Mistake (IMO): You don't seem to be solidifying those worries into rights. About your 'mason' (who you think is town) list, how are you going to be assured of their innocence? Press your target, or poke at them.
Quad: Tiruin blinks, then brings out a well-crafted shovel; its handle shining with the reflected lighting of the day, and its tip reflecting your image as well as the gathered others. "This used to be Shakerag's shovel. He used it for hitting people making big mistakes.
"It is mine now."
Now, you make an interesting setup there. Let me poise this: What if NQT turns up town?
Next, you seem to be thinking that your life is important - moreso as your voice is. Now, how you word it all screams town to me, but let me poke at it to clarify.
> You seem like that Lone Wolf kinda girl (heh, reminds me of m'self :P), but there are specific modes of thought when you die for the team. One, teams are teams - if you're going out, then best do it for the team. Don't act like you're the only hope and savior needed for hunting scum, nor should you expect your team to fail.
> COnsider this. What if you were wrong in your target? What if, the very person you think is town is actually scum? You state a very nice
Quote
It wouldn't matter if I knew who scum were, I'd be dead.but the reason behind it is that you have time before dying. People will read over your posts from the yesterday, and derive information from it - leads, reasoning, how you talk with others.
Giving off a cyclic mode of that type of thinking is in general, detrimental to your team. While you may have no say over what they'd do, every person follows some sort of logic. And logic in general is where they'd meet.
Tl;dr: Regardless of whether you value your life or not, you should aim for information - as both town or scum (latter wants to look towny and then twist details, while former needs to search for the right details).
Quote
Books of various sizes, all on the topic of WIFOM, toss about as they hit the dirt.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
NQT (look at this too)
{I...think you're seeing WIFOM as something...different.
WIFOM currently goes with the principal of "I know you know this, and you inherently believe me, I don't have to tell you this because you know you believe me. Now, would you believe me if I told you this?"
What is being presented is a blatant case of conjunctions. Either/Or. Someone states he's town - what's that supposed to mean? Nothing. Or probably stating a "maybe" clause? That's also not WIFOM but something to ponder upon. In that scenario where bussing is meant - what you should look for is how that person posted his wording. How, say, they talked with each other. If there were any ulterior motives given. What you shouldn't talk about is to point it out as WIFOM from there, then debate the case. It ruins the whole mode of thought. IMO, Only say its WIFOM after presenting a compelling case - if disagreement happens, or if conclusive evidence doesn't match up.}
@Quad: {Try to avoid the interrogative-contradictive style of questioning :P, it doesn't help those who are paranoid...like me. First sign I got when reading your post was 'Wth? She be scumming this up?'}
Lastly,
Quote
=snip'd last part of post in relation to NK=I blam this with the label of WIFOM.
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 05:02:12 am
@NQT: If crowd wisdom was a thing, then there'd never be any mislynches, right? I'll repeat the same question I turned to Quad: What if the other was lynched, and turned up town? What would you do?
This is an appeal to people's perspectives. Everyone sees things with different viewpoints - some, more skewed or more open than others.
This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4128236#msg4128236) really caught my eye.
Quote from: Now onto your suspicions
Shakerag/Tiruin combo have been mostly level-headed and investigative. But they're more experienced, so maybe we shouldn't read too much into this. Unless I missed it, no one has ever had a vote against Shakerag/Tiruin. Well, maybe they're both active-lurking masters.
Spoiler: My response (click to show/hide)
Now, I've seen the rest of your results and they are quite understandable and reasonable. But still, you're basing most of your reads solely on votes.
Not a good thing.
Listen to the Iron Owl (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4128791#msg4128791). Votes cannot be the main case in determining who is scum, in most occasions. Its in the essence of their posts. Questions along: "Why would he/she do this?" or "Are you joking me? [THIS] doesn't make any sense! Explain why..." would be good determinants.
Quote
often scummy people avoid getting lynched because they don't get enough votes on them at the right time.I guess this is one of your main reasons? While it is technically true, the reason people vote other people is due to how they post and the suspicion given by their post. If it would make sense, to be blunt. {I see you dueling with Quad over your argument. Quad/NQT: try to summarize your points in a list form, or in a short paragraph-ish way. Poke at the pertinent and major points, not those which you feel are vague (though, you can just say what they are if you think they are still important.)}
Evidence-based case against QuadressenceYou seem to be missing several cases of which, while the reads were given, they had explanations with them.
(In which I look at the Borno-Remuthra connection)
-snip-
Also, that was a nice summary. Now onto the explanations, how do these entail that Quad is scum? Death by relation?
@Quad:
Quote
I don't think being bandwagoned is a(s) scummy.Varies, it is or it isn't if based on the reasons of the people behind it. {You can't just handwaive it off like that}
TWS
Tiruin: Are you going to remove that pressure vote? The only reasoning that accompanied that vote was asking him if he was going to press people. Sure, not pressuring people could be seen as scummy, but a) he's said repeatedly he's busy and b) he's not been very confident the whole way through. Are you really more suspicious of him than anyone else?Currently, no. That was pressure.
You voting NQT solely because your questions were missed? Why are you?
Post by: IronyOwl on March 26, 2013, 05:09:32 am
I don't think you do, because if you did I don't think you'd be this defensive and self-centered. I don't care if you're scum anymore. I care that everyone in the game improves their scumhunting ability.I want everyone to point out I suspected Quadressence before I died. Bla bla bla! Also, stupid WIFOM stuff.I get it.
But apparently being vague is causing problems, so let me be specific: I'm not convinced you're working on learning more about NQT's alignment. You're trying to pressure him over the WIFOM thing, but that's all and it's laden with "OH NO YOU DID-N'T" overtones.
Are you pressuring him to learn more about him, or just trying to retaliate for what he's done?
Also, statements are fine. As proof, look how I totally responded to his accusations that were totally not questions. What you really need are examples. Examples could really help.They can sometimes be passable, but they're lazy and indirect. Note that you responded to at least one question to someone else also, but that doesn't mean you're just as likely to or would feel the same pressure as if it'd been a question to you directly. Also note that it was an answer you found useful to give, rather than necessarily what the person asking it wanted or had in mind.
I can't say anything about the plausibility of the hypothetical thought process you outlined. I never thought that way, but me saying this is obviously not very compelling in and of itself.As a minor quibble, you might want to be a bit more assertive here. The second sentence is true, but you might want to preface it with "No, but..." as opposed to "I cannot comment on this matter."
Evidence-based case against QuadressenceMuch better. Links to those posts and maybe examples of some of your more general statements would be even better, presentation-wise.
However, you still don't appear to be asking her (or anyone else) any questions, other than "here's mine, where's yours?" You've mentioned that questioning targets is fruitful, and gotten some useful data by digging up past conversations, but you haven't asked anything new yourself in quite some time.
Ninja'd and partially obsoleted by Tiruin, but still worth repeating, I think.
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 05:13:45 am
Ninja'd and partially obsoleted by Tiruin, but still worth repeating, I think.^ does a better job than I ever could. :P
Post by: notquitethere on March 26, 2013, 06:05:42 am
Quote
@NQT: If crowd wisdom was a thing, then there'd never be any mislynches, right?I could equally say, if crowd wisdom wasn't a thing, scum would never be lynched. Tellingly, when IronyOwl was mislynched he still had had fewer votes against him by fewer people than Borno/Quad have accrued throughout the game. (And need I point out that if Borno is scum, then Quad by extension must be scum.) If you think that traditional scum hunting can be get positive results, then I'm struggling to see your problem with me taking the collective results of the scum hunting of three confirmed town folk.
Quote
I'll repeat the same question I turned to Quad: What if the other was lynched, and turned up town? What would you do?Well I'd be a bit annoyed with myself and I'd try to work out where I went wrong. But then it would be LYLO and if I was still alive then I'd have only two targets and so hopefully it wouldn't be too difficult to work out which one was the scum. The greater difficulty might be in convincing the only other surviving town member of my case (and my own innocence).
Owl
Quote
However, you still don't appear to be asking her (or anyone else) any questions, other than "here's mine, where's yours?" You've mentioned that questioning targets is fruitful, and gotten some useful data by digging up past conversations, but you haven't asked anything new yourself in quite some time.This is a fair point. I wanted to finish looking back on the info we've already got from old conversations before taking my time up with new stuff. Still, it wouldn't hurt:
Onyx
Your precursor, The Soldier, thought Nerjin (an earlier version of Sheep) was pretty suspicious. Looking back, what do you think of his read and does it still hold true for Sheep?
Quad
I don't want to mislynch you, but you're not exactly instilling me with confidence. You're predeccesor Borno still had his more town-like moments (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4073421#msg4073421) and my mind is by no means ultimately settled. Say it comes down to LYLO and it's you, TheWetSheep and Tiruin left (uh, let's say town lynched me and scum lynched Onyx): who do you suspect the most and why?
Post by: TheWetSheep on March 26, 2013, 10:40:34 am
Tiruin:
TWSNo. If you'll read my previous posts, you'll see my suspicion of NQT spattered through them. Don't have time to link them, but they're there. In fact, you asked why, when I FoS'd him, I didn't vote him instead.Tiruin: Are you going to remove that pressure vote? The only reasoning that accompanied that vote was asking him if he was going to press people. Sure, not pressuring people could be seen as scummy, but a) he's said repeatedly he's busy and b) he's not been very confident the whole way through. Are you really more suspicious of him than anyone else?Currently, no. That was pressure.
You voting NQT solely because your questions were missed? Why are you?
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 26, 2013, 08:29:04 pm
OnyxI went through his posts and didn't really see anything major concerning that. Would you mind finding the post?
Your precursor, The Soldier, thought Nerjin (an earlier version of Sheep) was pretty suspicious. Looking back, what do you think of his read and does it still hold true for Sheep?
Tiruin
OnyxMind clarifying on 'solidifying your worries into rights'. I seem to be misunderstanding that one. As for how I am assured of their innocence, gut feeling mostly. Clean reads for the rest. No true certainty, just an understanding that there are more scummy people to be picked at.
Also, Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4125932#msg4125932) you say notes about you being worried. Ok, that's understandable. You say your reads and say you're quite possibly wrong, understandable given that there's one scum left.
Mistake (IMO): You don't seem to be solidifying those worries into rights. About your 'mason' (who you think is town) list, how are you going to be assured of their innocence? Press your target, or poke at them.
Sheep
OnyxJew: Say that tomorrow you're alive in LyLo with me and Quad. What would you do?Hmmm... I would do a lot more searching than previously into you two, as obviously I was wrong, but I think the majority of it would be on Quad.
Reasons in a dotted list,
- More people seem to be suspicious of her.
- Twice tried to find something to pick at about you, miserable failure in both cases. Really need to work on that.
- General feeling that process of elimination means she is scummier out of the two.
More complete post on the morrow.
Post by: notquitethere on March 27, 2013, 08:02:51 am
NotQuiteThereThe suspicions really begin here:OnyxI went through his posts and didn't really see anything major concerning that. Would you mind finding the post?
Your precursor, The Soldier, thought Nerjin (an earlier version of Sheep) was pretty suspicious. Looking back, what do you think of his read and does it still hold true for Sheep?
Nerjin: Do you intend to use your early hunting to coast through today? Even your most recent vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4052247#msg4052247) for superBlast came with no question, no pressure. Why?
Reads:
Nerjin: I'd feel a lot better about him if I saw some content from him. He's done basically no hunting since he voted for Remuthra way back here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4047449#msg4047449) Looks to be activelurking scum in my book.
He continues the pressure here:
No vote and no pressure because I felt I had said everythingthing that could be said at that point. Plus after that was a weekend and I had other things to do. I like mafia, but not enough to sacrifice my social life.First of all, LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py) says I've changed vote targets a total of 4 times, and so have most of the other players in the game, including you. The basis for your question is either unfounded or you should be grilling everyone else about it too.
As for scum-hunting no one has said anything that really sticks out to me. I suppose that does set up a case for active-lurking so I can understand where you're coming from my friend, however I would contend that I post fairly frequently and handle the small to moderate amount of posts that happen when I am absent.
But you do raise an excellent point, I should ask a question. Why do you Soldier switch votes so often? Is it for pressure? Seems rather risky this late in the day.
But to answer your question, yes, it's for pressure. I have completely consistent internet access and knowledge of when I'm able to use the computer, so I won't get caught off-guard by day end. Might as well gather as much info as possible.
Also, it's not a question of your number of posts, it's a question of your usefulness to the town. About half of your posts contain no hunting whatsoever. My lesser scum suspects (Remu, Spaghetti, superBlast/Captain Ford by proxy) have at least attempted to appear helpful. You just haven't done much of anything, really.
And confirms his suspicions after I posted my own initial reads:
It's worth noting that Nerjin posted in his other mafia games today with content, but not this one. This does bad things to his town points.
NQT: Good reads, and I agree with them for the most part. Would personally rank Nerjin as scummier, however.
His next post after this was to request replacement, immediately after Nerjin's own request. His final vote was on Nerjin and he only unvoted because he replacing out.
I've got to ask, how could you not see these suspicions, Onyx?
Post by: notquitethere on March 27, 2013, 10:30:05 am
In which I give my promised analysis of Nerjin and Remuthra's interactions to help establish just how suspicious we should be of TheWetSheep.
Their first interaction is a softball question from Nerjin:
@Remuthra: You seem to be enjoying yourself. Do you feel that superBlast is merely putting on airs and trying to buddy or is he simply jovial?
If Nerjin were scum, this would be a nice beginning to setting up Superblast as the fall guy. Remuthra's next few posts don't answer the question, and then:
Then Nerjin stands up for Remuthra against Superblast (a now confirmed town member). On its own this isn't too suspicious as he makes a fair point. Will we find anything worse?First off, Remuthra, you seem to worry about getting killed. Scum don't wanna die really badly, you know? Since there is so few of them, death affects them a hell a lot more then townies. That's the reason you wanna stay alive right?
I'm not picking on you, I'm really not, but this is flawed logic. No one wants to die in this game. It's similar to being a politician and getting elected. All the good intentions in the world do you no favors if you're dead [or not elected for the metaphor.] When someone is threatened with death they will try to put up a defense. This defense is how we actually catch the scum.
Their next interaction is Nerjin's speedy reply to Remuthra's newbie question:
By the way, what does WIFOM stand for?
Wine in front of me. Check common abbrevitions under the OP.
Note that Nerjin never follows up his initial question to Remuthra that went unanswered.
Then comes Remuthra's Ultimate Scum Tell, where he says he's going to kick back and let everyone else do the hard work:
Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
Nerjin posts immediately afterwards, starting with a small attack on Superblast:
(I've tried to neaten up the broken quote pyramid from the original. Let me know if I made a mistake here.)First off... man I hate not using edit.Seriously? That's kinda stupid... I mean the reasons part, not the not wanting to die part. Also i have no idea what SC2 is... well if it's not important then don't worry explaining it to me. Anyways your off the hook from me for now, back to random voting.Quote from: SuperblastFirst off, Remuthra, you seem to worry about getting killed. Scum don't wanna die really badly, you know? Since there is so few of them, death affects them a hell a lot more then townies. That's the reason you wanna stay alive right?No, the reason is I played in the SC2 version, and it wasn't the best community. You got lynched a lot for arbitrary reasons, and nobody likes randomly being killed.
"That's a stupid reason. I'm going to unvote you." Doesn't make sense to me.
He doesn't then change his vote to Remuthra or anything like that, but rather he gives Remmie some play advice:
Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
I refuse to allow this. Lurking doesn't help. You need to pressure those who have not said anything and put even MORE pressure on those who have. Now for that answer me a question: Why do you trust him to be town so early in the game? Do you truly believe lurking will help? What exactly did he say to convince you of his town-ness.
Remmie answers his questions this time:
QuoteI refuse to allow this. Lurking doesn't help. You need to pressure those who have not said anything and put even MORE pressure on those who have. Now for that answer me a question: Why do you trust him to be town so early in the game? Do you truly believe lurking will help? What exactly did he say to convince you of his town-nessFirst, I would like to point out that was three separate questions.
1. Not quite sure but he seems pretty trustworthy at this stage. That could definately change later.
2. No, but badly formed accusations won't help much either.
But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?
Nerjin replies, giving some helpful advice:
I've highlighted a line where Nerjin seems to go beyond newb-friendly light-pressure to apologism territory.QuoteI refuse to allow this. Lurking doesn't help. You need to pressure those who have not said anything and put even MORE pressure on those who have. Now for that answer me a question: Why do you trust him to be town so early in the game? Do you truly believe lurking will help? What exactly did he say to convince you of his town-nessFirst, I would like to point out that was three separate questions.
1. Not quite sure but he seems pretty trustworthy at this stage. That could definately change later.
2. No, but badly formed accusations won't help much either.
But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?
Why is he trustworthy? It's a simple question my friend. I understand the first day jitters. Just try to actually answer the question alright? Some people may take that as evasive. You need to be specific, preferable quoting the posts.
It's less of a badly formed accusation and more of a prod into what you should be doing already. Simply a saying "A is B." get's no one anywhere. You need to back up all assertions with "A is B because C."QuoteThis isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?Double ninja'd, actually. And it's not so much sure of alignment. It's a temporary stance, similar to others taken previously.
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.]
Fixed that for ya. Now, I'd like to point out that you have sort've hunted for scum but you need to be more forceful. Think of it as a pyramid. At the base EVERYONE is suspect. Then you narrow out a few based on evidence, then a few more, then you grill someone until they either break or assuage your suspicion. What happens from there is obvious.Yes. Why so evasive?I'm not being evasive, I thought your other question was just another way of saying be more serious.
And no, not really.
(SC2 stands for starcraft 2, by the way.)
As I understand it he asked "When are you going to start hunting?" to which you STILL have not provided an answer.
Then there's a series of clarificatory exchanges:
QuoteAs I understand it he asked "When are you going to start hunting?" to which you STILL have not provided an answerHe never asked me that.
Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
This isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.
Finally, Nerjin has enough:That one is made invalid because in the post above it I started hunting.Not too experienced with the subtleties of random voting, and I personally trust you to be town, so I'm cool to just sit here until I see something suspicious.
This isn't a good stance, Remuthra. In a game like this, the only way to be sure of someone else's alignment is to be scum. You also can't just wait for scum to fall into your lap or make a slip; when are you going to start hunting?
PPE: Ninja by Nerjin, but my question remains.
(going to bed now, don't kill me in my sleep)
UnvoteCould this possibly be distancing? Let's see if he keeps up the pressure.
Remuthra That is not gonna fly. You avoided the question because it was invalid? Earlier stating that it was never asked at all? I find that unbelievable. Get your story straight before you start trying to get me to believe it.
And then:
Curious level of concern? Odd attempted mod-bus? Or just a null tell?Remuthra @ 69: [What part of "no edits" was unclear in the rules?]... Didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Doesn't he get mod-killed for this?
A few pages later though, after Remuthra has said no new thing, he unvotes to vote the completely inactive Lord Al:
UnvoteCould this be masking the removal of suspicion from Remuthra by making a reasonable looking pressure vote?
Lord Allagon to borrow some language "Get your ass off the lurk-train and onto the forum."
Lurking doesn't help anyone. Maybe you think you'll hide in the back and let everyone else hunt scum for you but that doesn't help anyone. You signed up for mafia, I bid ye to at least say hello to us all.
Shakerag rightly pulls him up on this:
And Nerjin clearly implies that Remuthra isn't scummy, forgetting his earlier vote.Nerjin: [If you have time to poke at lurkers, you have time to poke at active players too.]
While true I feel I've done rather well with the active players. So far nothing is striking me and I'd like, nay desire, nay need, nay demand more input from those who haven't at this point.
Shakerag keeps up the pressure, and Nerjin evades:
(Tiruin, what do you think of this exchange?)And so you're just going to wait for the scumslips to fall into your lap? While resting a (presumably) pressure vote on a lurker? I know you've got some experience under your belt, so what do you think of me calling you out as activelurking scum, Nerjin?
I think you don't truly believe it as I have been rather active and scum-hunting. I think that you're putting that vote on me in order to try to get me to slip up and say something damning.
Townmember Spaghetti joins the hunt:
Alright Nerjin, if you feel you've done well against the "active" players, give me your read on them, and reasons.
And Shakerag isn't having any of Nerjin's nonsense:
And, so ... what? You're going to take a break from that now? Established some scum hunting up front so you can activelurk the rest of the day away?
You can "demand" that lurkers post in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up faster. In a situation in which nothing is striking me, I start asking everyone questions.
Nerjin finally gives his reads, assembling his mis-case on Superblast, while stating Remmy's probable guilt (and doing nothing about it).
Superblast: Likely either scum or flailing newblet. I say this because he keeps tossing out WIFOM and while I’m not sure which it is, gauging by his behavior in the previous BM [as short as he was] I’m leaning towards Scum. I’m also getting a vibe of him trying to play himself as a victim. Pathological appeal and whatnot. More recently he’s begun to appeal a LOT more via emotional methods. I am always distrustful of emotional appeals.Honesty or pre-lynch distancing?
Remuthra: Far too evasive to be a coincidence. He may actually just not have been paying attention but I’m leaning towards scum as well. As I’ve stated before his ignoring of a question because it was ‘invalid’ is unforgivable. The more I think of it the more scum he appears. Also NO EDITS!!!
Remuthra apologises:
Again, sorry, I really should have read things more thoroughly. And I am trying to hunt.
And then proceeds to vote for the still-inactive Lord Al, a safe choice:
Lord Al, when should you remove your vote, and when should you press?
Most interestingly, who does Remuthra give his greatest praise to in his list of tells?
Alright then. Here's my suspicions list.He paints my wholly inactive predeccessor Lord Al and most-town-like-player The Soldier as 'leaning scum', while saying that Nerjin is 'leaning town, being good and hunting and all that'! I should stress the Remuthra was not a sophisticated player. I think he might have given the game away here.
Me- Not sure, pretty suspicious and evasive... [/sarcasm]
Shake- Null, not really posting much.
Nerjin- leaning town, being good and hunting and all that
Irony- leaning town, see above
superBlast- null
Soldier- leaning scum, because so focused on getting me lynched instead of asking questions
Borno- null
LA- leaning scum, because of inactivity combined with being active elsewhere
Spaghetti- null
Again, Nerjin takes a softly-softly approach to Remuthra:
Again, sorry, I really should have read things more thoroughly. And I am trying to hunt.
No one's gonna get on you if you don't post right away. Take your time to look over your posts and read everything carefully.
Remuthra then leaves Nerjin out of his 'lean list':
Lean List
SB- scum, too much WIFOM, not much good hunting
Irony- town, seems solid, needs to post more
Shakerag- town, seems solid
Spaghetti- slight scum
Soldier- slight town
Both Remuthra and Nerjin leave the game shortly after this with no further interaction. The short lived Flying Dice replaces Remuthra, and Silver Dragon replaces Nerjin. FD sends a gentle question to Silver:
Silver: Care to give us your own little list of suspicions, once you've had a chance to read over the thread?We should always be suspicious when scum goes overly easy on a player.
Later:
Silver: Still waiting on your list of suspicions. Or anything, really. Why haven't you been posting? I just checked, and you've been online today at the very least.FD pokes Irony and myself broadly, but singles out Silver specifically. An urgent plea for a scumbuddy to appear?
Irony, NQT: Wake up. Please.
Silver Dice never posts, and TheWetSheep appeared after Spaghetti, Onyx and myself lynched Flying Dice.
Post by: notquitethere on March 27, 2013, 10:31:21 am
Why was Remuthra Nerjin's buddy, Sheep?
Post by: Teneb on March 27, 2013, 04:40:19 pm
TheWetSheep(1):TheWetSheep
Onyxjew994(0):
Quadressence(0):
notquitethere(2):Quadressence, TheWetSheep
Tiruin(0):
Not Voting: Onyxjew994, Tiruin
0 to extend
Post by: notquitethere on March 27, 2013, 06:54:19 pm
Look at the votes, see yourself how your fellow survivors interacted with known scum and known town and don't let yourselves be manipulated.
Oppose Extension.
Good night and good luck
Post by: IronyOwl on March 27, 2013, 07:17:56 pm
One, it's easier to read. People are less likely to skip, skim, or misunderstand a nice, short case than they are a long one.
Two, it's clearer what exactly you're trying to say. Anyone can list every scummy thing someone has ever done, but "they have done scummy things" isn't necessarily a convincing argument, and a better one can get swallowed up by that sort of thing.
Also, dying on purpose tends to be highly detrimental to your team. You're nowhere near unsalvageable, meaning you're much better off continuing to accomplish what you can, rather than just giving up and hoping things work out better next time.
Post by: notquitethere on March 27, 2013, 07:28:39 pm
The Super Concise version:
Sheep, Tiruin or Quad is scum.
Tiruin's precursor Shakerag was very critical of Scum Remuthra
Quad's precursor Borno had a mixed record
Sheep's precursor Nerjin was buddy-buddy with Scum Remuthra.
Scum Remuthra even went so far as to compliment Nerjin as being the best of the town.
Conclusion: Sheep is probably scum.
Post by: Teneb on March 27, 2013, 07:57:57 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 27, 2013, 08:05:23 pm
“Fools. All of you. All you’ll do is kill a loyal magister!’
“’Loyal’? Please, there is no way you can’t be the traitor.”
“Oh yeah? Watch.”
A bright spark, a sudden burst of flames. Notquitethere had immolated himself just as the doors opened.
“What is going on here?” said the Captain as he stepped into the room?
“The traitor has killed himself rather than face justice.”
The Captain goes to examine the charred body. After a few moments, the answer “His body shows no marks. He was loyal. We shall continue tomorrow.”
notquitethere has been lynched. He was a Magister.
Night ends 28th of March 22:00 BRT. Send me your actions.
Post by: Teneb on March 28, 2013, 09:18:37 pm
He walks out without waiting for an answer. The door is locked. A new day begins.
TheWetSheep has been killed. He was a Diviner.
Day ends 22:00 BRT of 1st of April.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 29, 2013, 08:08:23 am
I really don't to drag this debacle out any longer. I think the best thing now is just to let you guys lynch me and then take my analysis seriously when I'm a dead town member.I cannot be the only one who laughed at this when I read it today. A beautiful colab between Irony, Hindsight, and Finnangle's Law.
Look at the votes, see yourself how your fellow survivors interacted with known scum and known town and don't let yourselves be manipulated.
Oppose Extension.
Good night and good luck
The universe can really do gallows humor well. Oh sweet merciful Celestia another pun.
Now when I'm done chuckling myself into a localized hernia over the level of irony today, let's get down to business. (http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/5451914_700b.jpg)
Okay, seriously. Stopping now.
Tiruin, how do you feel about the events of yesterday?
I examined your last few posts, and your only vote was for me. Do you have any leads now with the lowered population?
Quad, well well well. It appears it's down to this.
Your primary target was lynched, and came up town. Our mutual friend was night-killed. How does this leave your thoughts?
Onyxjew
Currently, I'm at a stand-still. The one little thing about LYLO, is that fifty-fifty chance. I'm more interested in getting it to at least a measured degree of certainty before I start pointing fingers just yet. OR MAYBE NOT.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 29, 2013, 08:09:03 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 29, 2013, 11:38:12 am
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 29, 2013, 04:05:20 pm
For the two remaining town, that means lynch scum or we win. Scumhunt like your lives depended on it, because they do. Slacking off will let us win, and you don't want that now, do you?
For the one remaining scum, that means lynch town or they win. Pretend to hunt like your life depended on it, because it does. Good luck.
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 29, 2013, 06:55:50 pm
Where fore art thou, denizens of Bay12?
Post by: Tiruin on March 30, 2013, 01:05:50 am
Bump.Undergoing thunderstorm...Had to shut off net, and endure the rhythm of the rain.
Where fore art thou, denizens of Bay12?
Err, sorry for disappearance.
It's LyLo - Lynch or Lose.{^ This speaks truly. As of the current moment, all Town Power roles are dead, but what matters is what information you can glean from them; them, and every other connection viable with regard to the surviving players.
For the two remaining town, that means lynch scum or we win. Scumhunt like your lives depended on it, because they do. Slacking off will let us win, and you don't want that now, do you?
For the one remaining scum, that means lynch town or they win. Pretend to hunt like your life depended on it, because it does. Good luck.
At the moment, we've a replacement (me). Replacements usually are roadblocks to cases involving the predecessor's statements, but continue their line through alignment. Do not fear to question these people.
Though I do believe that we're in a current standpoint where we'd be turning back the pages to days far behind. Extend for that.}
Onyx
Tiruin, how do you feel about the events of yesterday?I felt confused. Confused in a way that, there was something wrong with how everyone else was pointing at NQT/Quadressence, hence me asking those questions of "what if [Other: Town]" regarding their cases (because, well, if they were scum and they got lynched - instawin)
I examined your last few posts, and your only vote was for me. Do you have any leads now with the lowered population?
And my vote was on you, then I unvoted as it was pressuring you to give your points. You seemed like flailing at that time, though it came to me as "flailing because failed to branch out earlier in the day" other than scum being lost in making a reasonable case.
Now when I'm done chuckling myself into a localized hernia over the level of irony today, let's get down to business. (http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/5451914_700b.jpg)I really think hernia was a bad wording there :/, trust me. Unless you somehow did get hernia...
Okay, seriously. Stopping now.
Anyway.
Tiruin> About how sure you were about your town reads. CUrrently, your post there caught my eye. You say you have no reason to suspect Quad.OnyxMind clarifying on 'solidifying your worries into rights'. I seem to be misunderstanding that one. As for how I am assured of their innocence, gut feeling mostly. Clean reads for the rest. No true certainty, just an understanding that there are more scummy people to be picked at.
Also, Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4125932#msg4125932) you say notes about you being worried. Ok, that's understandable. You say your reads and say you're quite possibly wrong, understandable given that there's one scum left.
Mistake (IMO): You don't seem to be solidifying those worries into rights. About your 'mason' (who you think is town) list, how are you going to be assured of their innocence? Press your target, or poke at them.
> You do not vote. Actually, you do not vote me judging by what you did suspect. I'm pretty sure you do know this is LYLO, right? And that you do have a vote, right? Why aren't you voting?
> What I did poke at back there was your nebulous sense, to be blunt. Got no reads formed on conclusive evidence there? Or are you afraid of poking at a case?
OnyxjewYou...somehow monologue yourself in? And...suspect OR MAYBE NOT...
Currently, I'm at a stand-still. The one little thing about LYLO, is that fifty-fifty chance. I'm more interested in getting it to at least a measured degree of certainty before I start pointing fingers just yet. OR MAYBE NOT.
I see nobody with that name. Does that statement you just did make sense?
What'cha doin' there Onyx? O_o
Quadressence: Tiruin pokes you with the tip of the shovel and greets you good morning.
So now that NQT is dead, and is town - what can you derive from that?
More importantly, what are you going to do now that you're alive at this crucial point in time?
Post by: Onyxjew944 on March 30, 2013, 07:11:07 pm
As noted in my earlier post today, I do not vote unless I am actually interested in what that vote might bring. I see no point now, and I saw no point earlier. Pressure? Whyever would I need pressure? The entire point of that is to cause a slip or to attract attention. Neither of which would be of any help here. When eleven becomes three, all the mistakes had already happened, and pushing for another is a horrifically unlikely event. Wanting attention is again aimless, because with only three remaining there is little chance of being passed over. Less so with the dismal activity herein.Tiruin> About how sure you were about your town reads. CUrrently, your post there caught my eye. You say you have no reason to suspect Quad.OnyxMind clarifying on 'solidifying your worries into rights'. I seem to be misunderstanding that one. As for how I am assured of their innocence, gut feeling mostly. Clean reads for the rest. No true certainty, just an understanding that there are more scummy people to be picked at.
Also, Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4125932#msg4125932) you say notes about you being worried. Ok, that's understandable. You say your reads and say you're quite possibly wrong, understandable given that there's one scum left.
Mistake (IMO): You don't seem to be solidifying those worries into rights. About your 'mason' (who you think is town) list, how are you going to be assured of their innocence? Press your target, or poke at them.
> You do not vote. Actually, you do not vote me judging by what you did suspect. I'm pretty sure you do know this is LYLO, right? And that you do have a vote, right? Why aren't you voting?
> What I did poke at back there was your nebulous sense, to be blunt. Got no reads formed on conclusive evidence there? Or are you afraid of poking at a case?
No reads on conclusive evidence? Heh, I daresay I do not. My case on you is weak at best, for I have little to go on. You have been absent, I do not fault you that. My case on Quad is non-existent. Believe me, if I had any chance of seeing her as scum earlier, I would have. I was combing everything I could to find a scum-tell. I blame my noobish skills for that particular event, though I must still rely on what they do find for me. Which, in the case of Quad, is absolute zero. A bit of personal issues, as you have no doubt seen, but nothing that really points to being scum.
Going back to why I'm not voting after that little tirade above. You might be wondering why I'm not voting you at this moment after I just proclaimed Quad's innocence. Because I still have days to burn and questions to ask. I still am far from certain.
In the words of many great... er... creatures of various repute, I haven't the slightest idea. I try not to write when I am incapable of saying which side of the planet I'm on, but some of my best work gets done when I haven't the slightest clue about the goings on around me. Seriously, I was completely out of it. Not truly important at the moment though, just know that statement was more for my own gratification and I think two or three inside jokes if I'm remembering them correctly.OnyxjewYou...somehow monologue yourself in? And...suspect OR MAYBE NOT...
Currently, I'm at a stand-still. The one little thing about LYLO, is that fifty-fifty chance. I'm more interested in getting it to at least a measured degree of certainty before I start pointing fingers just yet. OR MAYBE NOT.
I see nobody with that name. Does that statement you just did make sense?
Tiruin, are you pointing most of your questions and post-space at me because I am the only other player to show up, because I seem the most scummy, or because I'm the easiest to scape-goat?
Or mystery door number four, of course.
Post by: Tiruin on March 31, 2013, 01:20:31 am
Mmmm, dear. From this paragraph on I see a very scummy attitude. While this attitude can be kept in the mind, it dictates one thing to me: laziness, or a cover up. Why?-snap-As noted in my earlier post today, I do not vote unless I am actually interested in what that vote might bring. I see no point now, and I saw no point earlier. Pressure? Whyever would I need pressure? The entire point of that is to cause a slip or to attract attention. Neither of which would be of any help here. When eleven becomes three, all the mistakes had already happened, and pushing for another is a horrifically unlikely event. Wanting attention is again aimless, because with only three remaining there is little chance of being passed over. Less so with the dismal activity herein.
First is in orange. Second is in purple. The whole statement above states that "Oh we can catch scum easy by checking back anyway. We don't need pressure or anything else."
Fallible. Very fallible.
> You think the past days are just to target scum, and today means that you should be sure and not use your (if town) only weapon in achieving your wincon - the vote? NO. Well, unless you are darn sure, which I doubt from your context, then feel free to delay your vote until the last moment scum.
The entire point of a vote is to either cause pressure or initiate a conversation with the target - a vote carries the weight of the person's suspicions on the target. It is only pressure when:
a. The voter says it is a pressure vote.
b. It is sensed that the vote is weak - (this is to be inferred and it isn't actually proven, just me stating it)
c. You'd be surprised when people use their votes in a good way. A vote, plus any good supporting argument does help. Anywhere.
I mean, even without voting you can make a good case and a nice argument - IMO, the lack of vote suggests either that you're just poking around and keeping tabs, OR that you're staying neutral or pseudo-neutral on the situation at hand. Your posts don't tell me any of the above.
And for added reading (just for info, obviously), I poke at BM 34 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110494.msg3434981#msg3434981): That one time where I was one scum and by buddybro got run over by a triple decker bus. See how LYLO turned out - people still pressured.
Quote
No reads on conclusive evidence? Heh, I daresay I do not. My case on you is weak at best, for I have little to go on. You have been absent, I do not fault you that. My case on Quad is non-existent.Second case in point. Bolded part states absence of questioning, NOT due to my absence for I was present for a whole day post-Shakerag busy-ness. You had only asked me little, even very trivial questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4125932#msg4125932) to be honest (Like, what does my 'disappearance' have to do with anything, if it was even a disappearance?), answered (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4131935#msg4131935) in full. Your case is observably weak, but what did you do about it? Nothing much. Not a lot of continuation regarding my answer to that link there.
Quote
Going back to why I'm not voting after that little tirade above. You might be wondering why I'm not voting you at this moment after I just proclaimed Quad's innocence. Because I still have days to burn and questions to ask. I still am far from certain.Hmm, days of questions. Which you didn't ask earlier, eh? Stalling for time, perhaps.
Thing is, what persuades me more about Quad's innocence is TheWetSheep's attitude towards her. While he didn't be specific (Something along the lines of "Oh I believe she's town because"), he did state reluctance of voting Quad during the yester day.
SheepAnd this. Seeing your suspicions, What. Did. You. Do?OnyxJew: Say that tomorrow you're alive in LyLo with me and Quad. What would you do?Hmmm... I would do a lot more searching than previously into you two, as obviously I was wrong, but I think the majority of it would be on Quad.
Reasons in a dotted list,More substantial evidence is not available and, I believe, is not really necessary at this time. I still believe it is either Tiruin or NQT.
- More people seem to be suspicious of her.
- Twice tried to find something to pick at about you, miserable failure in both cases. Really need to work on that.
- General feeling that process of elimination means she is scummier out of the two.
No vote, or just trying to passively persuade others?
Tiruin, are you pointing most of your questions and post-space at me because I am the only other player to show up, because I seem the most scummy, or because I'm the easiest to scape-goat?Its called scumhunting bro. Also, I believe, and did state so, that Quad is townier than you (in a general way).
Or mystery door number four, of course.
And there is no fourth player.
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Quadressence: Tiruin posts a post-it note on your doorstep.
Quote
Hi there :D
So...I'm just asking. Where are you and why your absence? Yeah, tis' the weekend, enjoy it! Come back soon, ok?
Deathsword: Extend.
Post by: Tiruin on April 01, 2013, 07:31:55 am
Ello? D:
We've got only one extend request...Also, 8:31pm here, Monday as of time of posting...
Where are you all?~
Post by: Teneb on April 01, 2013, 08:02:47 pm
Post by: Tiruin on April 01, 2013, 11:57:08 pm
Tomorrow for me, you guys have 8 or so hours in advance from Greenwich :P
"...Because its really lonely standing here. In the main hall. With you two. Not talking...and all."
Day extended until this same time tomorrow. Can't do it today.Votecount? :/ I know how the votes lie, but...surely something would at least get this thread moving.
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2013, 02:22:22 pm
Onyxjew994 (1):Tiruin
Tiruin (0):
Quadressence (0):
Not Voting: Onyxjew994, Quadressence.
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2013, 07:33:09 pm
The time had come, by his command was the door opened and he strode into the hall. The situation was… not quite what he expected. Quadressence stood in the middle of the room, completely still and unblinking. Onyxjew994 sat against a wall, his head low. Tiruin, meanwhile, was apparently waiting for him.
“Captain, Onyxjew994 is the last traitor. There is no doubt about that.”
“Are you sure?”
“Yes.”
“So be it then.” He sighed and walked up to Onyxjew994. “Do you have any last words? Any confessions you wish to make?”
Silence.
“Fine, have it your wa- is that blood?” He leaned over. Onyxjew994’s throat had been cut open. “What is going on here!?”
From behind him came an explanation “Vengeance, captain, nothing more.”
The Cabal (Scum team) has won!
scumchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/AavYckHVWmE)
deadchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Vi4aAmGDQ9LKY)
I'll post the rest of the flavour soon.
Post by: Remuthra on April 02, 2013, 07:36:47 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 02, 2013, 07:37:22 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on April 02, 2013, 07:38:24 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2013, 07:42:47 pm
Spoiler: Flavour texts (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: alternate ending (click to show/hide)
Post by: Leafsnail on April 02, 2013, 07:48:53 pm
Post by: Quadressence on April 02, 2013, 07:55:35 pm
I was in the hospital. -_-
I wasn't even here for a week. Why did no one notice?
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2013, 07:57:47 pm
:O ... :| ... >.>People did notice. Check the dead/scum chats
I was in the hospital. -_-
I wasn't even here for a week. Why did no one notice?
Post by: ToonyMan on April 02, 2013, 08:01:22 pm
Day four was laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.What are you talking about? Only mafia should get to play during lylo!
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 02, 2013, 08:04:52 pm
Remember kids, two times makes a pattern.
Post by: Shakerag on April 02, 2013, 08:18:11 pm
d-(^_^)
Post by: Onyxjew944 on April 02, 2013, 08:20:09 pm
Wait, looking at the night actions... Sheep inspected Tiruin the turn he was killed by the very same. Irony, apparently it now comes in fatality flavor.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 02, 2013, 08:28:10 pm
Special props to IronyOwl and spaghetti7 for sticking through the whole game.
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2013, 08:30:31 pm
Especially considering that in BM 34, Irony the IC Cop inspected Tiruin and was also killed by her the same night.notquitethere replaced in. Sphagetti7 and IronyOwl were the ones that managed not to be replaced.
Special props to IronyOwl and notquitethere for sticking through the whole game.
Post by: Quadressence on April 02, 2013, 08:30:59 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 02, 2013, 08:32:01 pm
notquitethere replaced in. Sphagetti7 and IronyOwl were the ones that managed not to be replaced.Yeah, I got my townies mixed up.
Post by: TheWetSheep on April 02, 2013, 08:43:30 pm
I'm looking forward to playing a full game.
Post by: Captain Ford on April 02, 2013, 08:50:05 pm
And I'm happy to see that Quad didn't just leave. I assume your detour to the hospital was unexpected?
Post by: Tiruin on April 02, 2013, 09:19:20 pm
At least my hunch was right on you Quad :D
And...wait.
WHAT?!
Why wasn't I replaced? Or prodded? Or anything?Deathsword didn't prod you?! D:
Quote from: Dead Ford
Whelp. RIP newbies. Now that Tiruin's the last scum, you don't stand a chance.I like this. Is it a compliment? I like it as a compliment. Thanks you! :D
Spoiler: OOC Medical System Dead Ford (click to show/hide)
Post by: RangerCado on April 02, 2013, 11:58:41 pm
Post by: Scelly9 on April 02, 2013, 11:59:31 pm
I'd like to point out that the proper Roman numeralization for this game is XXXIX, but it's too late now, I have it down as XXXVIV in the New Player's thread and it's too adorable a mistake to change.Late to the party, man.
Post by: RangerCado on April 03, 2013, 12:04:06 am
...*facepalm* oh well. i didn't read this one so didn't see the correction. i shoul get some sleep now. long day for me tomorrow.I'd like to point out that the proper Roman numeralization for this game is XXXIX, but it's too late now, I have it down as XXXVIV in the New Player's thread and it's too adorable a mistake to change.Late to the party, man.
Post by: Tiruin on April 03, 2013, 01:48:34 am
Self-consciousness ftw! :P
But really, good playstyles all around. Hope to see you guys and girls in the next BM or in the proceeding Regular Games! Hope you get well soon Quad, you were awesome.
Also, why'd you disappear Onyx? :/ Hopefully nothing wrong happened?
Post by: Spaghetti7 on April 03, 2013, 01:57:10 am
But jesus guys, how can you play that so regularly? It stresses me out so much.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 03, 2013, 01:58:28 am
Bit of an anti-climatic ending, but nice game. I think I could have done better in a few places (:P) but it was pretty fun.Well, you learn to handle the stress better as you go. Everything's more nerve-wracking the first few times around.
But jesus guys, how can you play that so regularly? It stresses me out so much.
That said, it's definitely not the most relaxing game most of the time.
And yes, unfortunate ending, but RL intruding tends to be part of mafia as well. Hope you're feeling better, Quad.
Post by: Vector on April 03, 2013, 02:25:06 am
Post by: Tiruin on April 03, 2013, 02:45:28 am
Learned a lot. Still need a lot more to go :S
I play this game precisely because it teaches me to deal with difficult social situations. Job interviews are honestly a lot like trying not to be lynched =)You'll get that job Vector, you've the potential in you ^^
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 03:53:30 am
Post by: Teneb on April 03, 2013, 09:48:46 am
Why wasn't I replaced? Or prodded? Or anything?Deathsword didn't prod you?! D:
My grandmother's sister died yesterday, so things are a bit chaotic right now.
Post by: The Soldier on April 03, 2013, 03:06:23 pm
Well played by shakerag and tiruin, I didn't suspect you at all until LYLO.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 03, 2013, 03:14:05 pm
I was very right and then very wrong. I think I should have gone with my first intuition and ignored the mod and lynched both ICs like I first intended. Definitely a learning experience.I think you should have formed your own suspicions off of scumhunting everyone personally.
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 03:18:12 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 03, 2013, 03:47:08 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 03, 2013, 03:57:55 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 04:23:17 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 03, 2013, 04:26:40 pm
I'm not sure, as scum it'd be better if you could wait until a townie votes a townie and then hammer to win instantly.Is 4-player lylo 3 to hammer?
Plus behaviorally mafia is one day from winning. The after-hammer thing would only happen in cases like BYOR11 where townies think they have concrete proof (but really it's the MOD being lame).
EDIT:
I don't see why a townie would ever put someone to L-1 in lylo with one mafia unless they were played or fooled. Which is exactly why a quick first vote is a likely scum read.
And what if the first vote is on you, the scum? You'd cut your win chances unless you started your attack, which you should have done in the first place. Or cross-vote with the guy and LEAVE IT UP TO THE REMAINING TOWNIE
Post by: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 04:31:02 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 03, 2013, 04:37:18 pm
4 player is 3 to hammer, but generally isn't lylo because you can No Lynch.You can't no lynch in every game.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 04:39:06 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on April 03, 2013, 04:42:44 pm
Also, DS, sorry to hear that. I guess that explains your absence from KotM.
Post by: Tiruin on April 03, 2013, 11:21:57 pm
A newbie-friendly bastard? Now I've seen everything.You haven't seen Glyph's Rebel-styled Mafia then. It should've been a game more focused on communication to teach them newbies how to spot scum instead of relying on roleflips :P
Also... my condolences DS :<