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Other Projects => Other Games => Topic started by: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 01:31:48 am

Title: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development probably abandoned.
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 01:31:48 am

(http://i.imgur.com/IHkZJHl.jpg)

Level Zero Forums (http://forum.levelzerogames.com/index.php)
Historical Kickstarter page (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage) (Successfully funded on Kickstarter March 30th, 225% over its original $16,000 goal.) - Read descriptions of the mechanics straight from the CEO's mouth here! (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage/posts?page=2)
Steam Greenlight Page (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=133833471)

Backer Prototype Release: June 2013 (Video here (http://www.indiedb.com/games/net-gain-corporate-espionage))
Full release: Q1 2014

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Welcome to the year 2043. Humanity has bridged the gap between man and machine, pulling us into an age beyond the reach of conventional law. Megacorporations now govern their own territories within nations, and the benefits of the corporate lifestyle are enjoyed by the "bitizens". In Net Gain, the player takes on the role of a corporate broker, hired by a powerful conglomerate to sabotage their competitors by any means. You’re in charge of investigating targets, planning missions, assembling teams, and leading the operation to success. All in a world that’s rapidly changing every day…

Net Gain is a window and text-based corporate espionage sim. You, the Broker, have been hired by your corporation and are responsible for plotting and running schemes against rival corporations and their assets, from the ground up. To me it's what would happen if Uplink by Introversion Software and Liberal Crime Squad did the nasty and had a baby.

The game takes place in two distinct phases, although they occur in the same game space. The first is planning, where you send operatives out to collect intelligence on different potential targets. Targets like new scientific research, new technology, valuable personnel, owned natural resources, entire businesses or vulnerabilities that can be exploited for an advantage.

(http://i.imgur.com/5oXqziU.png)

As you build up intel on target, you can "spend" it on formulating plots to undertake against them. You get a list of potential Plots based on several factors, like what kind of target it is, what skills your operatives are good at and other things. Targets are usually surrounded by at least several layers of security. These might be anything from the security of the sector the target is located in, to the physical security around it, to the digital security that blocks it off. Each ring of security will have to have an associated Plot so it can be safely bypassed.

The second phase begins when you've defined your Plots and now want to execute them. You select operatives, who you have retained the services of after recruiting them from a pool of applicants, who have skills relevant to the Plot at hand. When you execute a Plot, the game compares the stats of the operative and makes some rolls, and they'll succeed or fail. Occasionally, however, random events will occur, requiring you the Broker to decide how the Operative proceeds. A guard might be close to blowing their cover, for example, or the operative might be falling for the target they're supposed to be seducing. Your operative might have uncovered some sensitive data during a hack and wants to know if they should risk going for it. Or things might have gone tits up, and you need to decide how your Operatives should escape.

Your Operatives' success or failure also depends on the challenge at hand, their relevant skills and equipment and their available Resources. An Operative's Resources are represented as a pool, which is an abstraction of the guns, armor, gadgets and even cybernetics they use. Equipped gear makes it so they can spend this Resource pool when challenges come up during plots, allowing them guaranteed success OR a fighting chance against stiff odds provided they have the right gear for the challenge. These Resource pools get refilled from your corporate slush fund, i.e. your war chest. If plots go wrong, they may change into new plots, where your Operatives need to escape during car chases or being hunted by kill teams, where you'll have to decide their method of survival.

(http://i.imgur.com/fOM8e5U.png)

If your plots succeed, your corp's stock will increase, you'll see news items show up in the ticker about your recent actions and an increase in your funding. Succeed enough, and eventually you'll get access to the War Room, a command center where you can hire support staff to enhance your operations, increasing the effectiveness and rate of Intel collection, better logistics and better training facilities for your Operatives. You'll even be able to recruit Operatives to act as middle management, imparting bonuses to your plots.

Fail, and you'll see your Operatives killed or wounded and demoralized, your resources squandered, and your corp's Power in the Market go down, reducing the Budget you can work with. Fail enough, and you'll generate Heat. There may be Heat on your intended target, making future Plots harder to pull off. There may be Heat on the Operative, which could leads to Plots against them. Or there could be Heat on you and/or your corp! Its Reputation might suffer or it may become the target of new Plots. You may even become the target of Plots yourself, as competitors track down who is responsible for plotting against them, or rival brokers decide it's time you were liquidated! You can choose to go into hiding, shutting down your operations until the Heat cools down, but that means you'll have to claw your way back up the corporate ladder once again!

----

Operatives could be considered the third leg of the game. They're whole characters unto themselves, with many features that make them unique individuals. They come in two flavors, regular Operatives and Specialists, who are highly trained in one or more fields. All Operatives have Names and Aliases, Nationalities, Avatars, Profiles, Stats, Skills, Traits, Resources, Contacts, Circles and Loyalties. 

(http://i.imgur.com/oAOmk8A.png)

• Their Name. They might also start with an alias that's been earned by the Circles they're part of. You will also be able to assign them code names.
• Their Avatar is what they look like and roughly reflects their personality and lifestyle.
• Their Nationality is what part of the world they hail from. Everyone comes from somewhere, and Net Gain Operatives come from everywhere: Africa, The Far East, the Middle East, Europe and the Americas. Not sure if there are any from Antarctica.
• Their Profile is basically their profession. It defines what skills they start with, what skills they'll prefer to learn, what kind of gear they'll gravitate toward and their reactions to some kinds of random events.
• Their Traits are a collection of personality tweaks that can have good, neutral or negative consequences in different situations. They modify tests, affect which plots the Operative recommends, can impact their loyalty shifts, how they deal with other Operatives, potential responses to events and even what events happen to them. Some examples from the Kickstarter page.

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• Cheerful operatives do better on social tests and form connections to other operatives faster than most... unless the other operative has the trait Depressed, Curmudgeon, or the like... then the constant barrage of happiness just gets on their nerves!
• Addict operatives are less than ideal... while normally functioning people, they do tend to enjoy their vices on their time off. this can be a problem if you suddenly call them onto a mission, or if they’re assigned to a continuing operation, as they’ll perform worse on the job. If you check on them while they’re at home, you’ll probably notice the place is a bit of a mess, and they don’t tend to have a lot of money on hand.
• Bloody operatives certainly have their uses, getting large bonuses in assassination plots, firefights, and weapon skill challenges... but they’re also much more likely to start the firefight! if a plot goes wrong with a Bloody operative, the chances of sneaking away quietly drop significantly as the safety comes off.
• Orthodox operatives are great, getting a small bonus for one test per plot... as long as you planned for it. The minute you go off script, the Orthodox operative loses their cool, doing worse at almost everything! They’re great for stable operations and support, but not the kind of person suited to a more risky mission.

Their Skills are broken up into schools and then specific skills within that school. So Firearms is a School while Longarms is a skill within the Firearms school. Having skill in a whole school gives you bonuses to skill attempts within that school, so just knowing something about guns helps you use a gun you're not familiar with a little bit better. When not running plots or looking for intelligence, Operatives will train their skills and get better at them.

Their Stats provide basic elements like health, as well as raw and unpredictable bonuses to the skills they link to. They also determine some other core character mechanics.

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• Body is the operative’s core physical ability. It’s used in feats of strength, to determine the maximum amount of gear they can carry, cybernetics they can install, and as the amount of wounds they can take before going down.
• Agility is the operative’s speed, balance, and dexterity. It’s used for precision and reflex, determining the maximum amount of gear an operative can carry without being encumbered, and is used to “soak” attacks in combat, as they throw themselves into cover or hit the ground.
• Acuity is the operative’s intelligence and mental sharpness, used in a wide variety of skills. It also helps operatives in developing their skills, and acts as a sort of “health” for hackers when faced with a difficult barrier on the net.
• Integrity is the operative’s mental fortitude. It isn't used for many skills, but “soaks” the damage from a variety of non-physical attacks, such as intimidation, net barriers, social sparring, negotiations, morale loss from injuries, and so on.
• Personality is the operative’s sociability, how genial and easy to talk to they are... and how good they are at twisting words to their advantage! Used as the basis for social skills, and as a sort of “health” when engaged in a social conflict over contract terms, interrogations, seduction, or more!

Their Resources are broken up into sub-parts. The Resource Value, Gear, Cybernetics, Salary, and Property.

• The Resource Value is the pool an Operative spends from to use gear during missions to beat challenges they might have otherwise failed. It's an abstraction of things like bullets, body armor, cars and all the stuff they use to execute plots. You budget resources for your  Operatives, that they can use when you send them out on missions. This is important because you're ultimately spending your money to ensure their success.
• Gear is what allows an Operative to spend resources on tests. Operatives will spend some of their cash on acquiring new gear, and they can also be assigned gear in some instances. Gear is broken up into three sub-types.

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• School Gear lets you spend resources on any school based-test. I.e., screw up a Firearms challenge, spend resources to maybe succeed at it.
• Skill Gear lets you spend resources on specific skill tests. So a sniper rifle lets you spend resources on Longarms challenges, but not shotgun challenges.
• Perk Gear provides boosts to a stat, skill or other thing in specific instances. Body armor for example might bump your body stat, but only for the purposes of soaking damage.

• Cybernetics are permanent upgrades to the character, gear that can't be swapped out. Not a lot has been said about them, other than to buy them for the things the op will do the most often. I suppose it's like equipment that can't be lost and so, if you have a scout, a cybernetic eye that lets him do well on perception tests is a smart buy.
• Salary is what you pay the Operative in every budget cycle, which they use to pay for their property and lifestyle. They collect a portion of it in a small personal slush fund as well, to buy new gear for themselves.
• Property is an Operative's assets and liabilities. Their home, furnishings, appliances, toys, gadgets and what not. The more an Operative gets paid, the more they're likely to spend their money on things like this. You can check on your operatives and see that their lifestyle choices often reflect their personality traits.

Their Loyalties, Contacts and Circles are all kind of inter-related.

• An Operative's Loyalty is a value that is split between all the Circles they are a part of. You don't know, initially, what their specific loyalty values are, you just know who their top and bottom loyalties are. By observing them while they're at HQ, by some events or by spying on them through plots you can discover what their actual loyalty values are. Operative loyalty is constantly shifting, reacting to changes in the game. When things, good or bad, happen to them, their Circles or their Contacts, their loyalty values shift to reflect these changes.
• An Operative's Circles are the groups they originally hail from. It might a collective of hackers, mercenaries, rogue spies or former Corporate Operatives. Every faction, including your own corporation, is considered a Circle. Your Broker has a reputation with each of the Circles, and they're who you recruit new Operatives from. Treat the Circles well, and you can recruit better Operatives. Piss them off (by killing their people killed, by hitting targets they have relationships with, ect...) and you may lose the ability to hire from them.
• An Operative's Contacts are who they know within a Circle. When an Operative joins you, you become their Contact to the Circle of your Corporation. Within a Circle's loyalty value, Contacts get a Loyalty value as well. The better you, or another Contact, treats the Operative, the more they will feel their loyalty is owed to the Contact rather than the Circle. Operatives you run can end up with each other as contacts. Great for company morale. Bad when someone dies.
• Loyalty Explained: When they get injured on a mission, when they fall in love with a Mark during a Plot, when you run a mission against one of their Circles (which might even be an opposing corporation) their loyalty to these things change. A new loyalty to a seduced Mark, for example, cuts into the available loyalty they have left for everyone else (including you.) If they're hurt on a mission against a corporation they include in their circle, their loyalty to you might plummet while their loyalty to the opposing corp might skyrocket. At an even keel, simply keeping your Operatives paid and unhurt will keep them loyal. If more extreme measures are needed to ensure loyalty, you can Bond an Operative, locking their loyalty to a fixed level. Changes and happenings will cause this bonded loyalty to flex, eventually returning to its default level. Unless you push the Operative too hard, in which case the bond breaks.

Lastly, there's Mobile Ops, the last stretch goal for the Kickstarter. It comes in two parts.

• In game, Mobile Ops will increase the amount of stuff available for your Operatives to do "off the clock" and the amount of ways you the Broker can interact with them. Operatives will be able to interact with each other (forming Contacts), do work with their Circles (increasing their loyalty to them), go into Deep Cover (a sort of extended Plot that takes your Op out of circulation for a while but leads to intel and such), or moonlight doing other jobs. It will also offer you more managerial control, like setting policies on what kind of work they can do autonomously, offering pay raises or pay cuts, and new events like Operatives asking you to help them with something, offering to go in on an "off the books job" or you offering company retreats to increase their loyalty.
• Out of game, there will be several standalone applications that link up with the game. First will be the Canon Generators, applications that can be used to generate new agents, industries, corporations and more for quick insertion straight into the game. These will be ported to mobile phone devices, and include a small portion of the in-game mechanics, offered for free. Mobile Ops users will be able to generate Operatives and other content, and do some limited things available in the full game, like send them on minor missions and side stuff.

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Alongside Operatives, Corporations, Companies and Assets are all considered characters of a sort too. They have their own stats, specialties and traits. Taken together, they are the engine that drives the game economy in Net Gain. In terms of a hierarchy, Assets are at the bottom. They are owned by Companies. Many Companies, in turn, are owned by Corporations. Assets and Companies are what Corporations seek to deny each other in the shadow war, either by acquiring them or destroying them.

(http://i.imgur.com/WpkLMQH.png)


Corporations are run by executives, have a business HQ, reputations in the business world, have a Power rating, operating budgets and do business in certain markets.

• Executives have traits that guide the corp. Much like character traits, they impact how the corp behaves and operates. Such traits might guide the corp to aggressively respond to threats, only invest in tested markets, focus on steady growth, invest generously in its field operations, or the reverse of all of those.
• The Corporate Headquarters will visually reflect the fortunes of the corp. As your corp grows more powerful its buildings will increase in size and its corporate logo will spread to neighboring buildings.
• Each corporation has a Reputation with other corps and the public in general. In regards to other corps, it generally reflects the depth of their hostility toward each other. While sometimes corps do have positive relationships with one another, even agreeing to cooperation pacts, usually they're hostile based on being in the same competing markets or a history of raiding each other. Reputation with the outside world tends to shift based on the methods the corp (and you) use to achieve your ends. Go too far and the public may rally against your corp and how it does business. As a Broker, some plots may be to repair your corp's Reputation or damage someone else's.
• The corporation's Power is the sum of its everything: its value, its infrastructure, its institutional knowledge, its resources, its logistics...everything a corp does ultimately feeds its Power value.
• The corporation's Budget is directly related to its Power. Its Budget is really your Budget, the monthly allotment of money it can afford to spend on its Brokers, to pay for their Operatives and their Resources. The more powerful your corp becomes through your actions, the more of a Budget you get to work with. Any excess money that comes in goes into the Slush Fund, off-the-books resources you can use at your discretion.
• The corporation's Markets are the business Markets they choose to compete in. Their stake in each Market affects the value of the Assets and Companies within that Market. A Corporation with high stakes in the Med Tech Market, who acquires the hottest new Neural Surgery Laser Scalpels Asset, stands to make a fortune. The value of the things in the Markets they participate in directly impacts the corp's Power rating.

Companies make up the building blocks of a corp. The type of Companies and their chosen Industries determine what Markets the corp. tries to compete in. As new Companies in different Industries are acquired or lost by the corp, it may affect which Markets they want to participate in. Companies can be bought, sold, merged or obliterated according to the needs of the corp. When your corp wants to make a move against a rival corp, attacking an entire company they own can deal a devastating blow to their Power. Companies own Assets, have Infrastructure, Security, a Company Value and belong to an Industry.

• The Company's Industry determines what kind of Assets they produce. A company in the Weapons Industry might produce a new High Efficiency Laser, for example. The Industry, in turn, determines what kind of Market the Company operates in. The Weapons Industry would be a part of the Weapons Market. Different Industries perform and behave differently, some slow but consistent, while others are erratic, going for the "next big thing."
• The Company's Infrastructure determines how many Assets they can have at one time and provides additional levels of Security. It also determines the Company's operating cost.
• The Company's Assets are what ultimately determines its worth. They might be things the Company makes, research it's doing, the highly trained staff that works there or other things. Assets are in a way their own characters and are covered below.
• The Company's Security is what protects it from Operatives, both yours and your opponents. The better the Security, the more Plots you have to run against the Company to acquire or sabotage its Assets, and the harder those Plots will be. There are often several layers of Security, and the bigger a company is, the larger and more elaborate these security zones are, ranging from security through the whole district, to the network security, to the physical security that surrounds the immediate holdings.
• The Company's Value is the difference between the cost of its Infrastructure versus the value of its Assets. A company's Value is constantly shifting, as once valuable Assets deteriorate in the face of new advances or stiffer competition, and new, highly valuable Assets are developed. When the Value of a company no longer supports its Infrastructure, it's probably time to sell or merge it.

Assets are the core building block of the game economy. They're created and owned by Companies, which are in turn owned by Corporations. Every week, Assets contribute some of their Value to the Corporation's Power rating and in turn their Value rating declines. No Asset is valuable forever and so Companies are always developing new Assets. That said, different Assets decay at different rates. Assets based on fads and trends will decay faster, while more useful Assets like natural resources will deplete slower. A few examples of Assets:

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Everything as diverse as the latest commlink, fashion trends, rare mineral deposit claims, environment mapping "slip" virtual reality, cunning lobbyists, platoons of private military contractors, clever ad campaigns, the hottest gadgets, popular celebrities, sophisticated androids...

While most Assets are used simply for their impact on a corp's Power rating, some provide additional or non-economic benefits liked enhanced Security or better Gear for your Operatives to use. Assets have two traits of concern to Brokers, their Type and Stage.

• The Asset's Type is what form it takes. It might be a person, a natural resource, a product or a tv show. Type is the biggest determinate of what kinds of Plots can be run against the Asset. A person could be coerced, seduced or kidnapped, for example.
• The Asset's Stage is where in its life cycle it is, and also impacts what kinds of Plots can be used. For example, Microbiology Tech in the research Stage could be stolen or destroyed, while the same tech in the "Production" stage could be sabotaged.

There will be no real End Game, according to the developer. Net Gain is intended to be played as an open-ended Sim much like Dwarf Fortress. That said, there are indications there will be some story elements or plot involved. Or at least plot characters.

(http://i.imgur.com/h0WV3PN.png)

Again, you can read all of this straight from the developer on the Kickstarter page's updates. I've probably missed something. What I love most about this project is the real commitment to deep, interactive systems where there's trade offs and consequences for everything. Be sure to give a listen to some of the excellent music linked on the Kickstarter page as well, it really sets the mood for the game.

The developer has said this is a game he wants to stay with the game for a long, long time, well beyond what he's already talked about during the Kickstarter campaign. If you're lover of sims, futuristic dystopia, scheming and plotting, then please have your ID Badge ready, and welcome to the Corp.[/list]

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: jocan2003 on March 06, 2013, 01:50:19 am

Introversion were supposed to make a game in the same *genre* Corporate espionage like stuff exept in full procedural world. Sadly it went down they werent ready for the task and ran up to pison architect. I remember seing lots of sadness when it was scrapped. While this game doesnt have the graphics and mecanics it does hit a niche genre wich is espionage, im quite sure it will indeed turn some heads around.

I wish them luck and i sure hell going to throw some money over there.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: BuriBuriZaemon on March 06, 2013, 02:30:28 am

I am still on the fence but wow the trailer is so cool (at least IMHO)!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: Draco18s on March 06, 2013, 11:23:26 am

Quote from: jocan2003 on March 06, 2013, 01:50:19 am

Introversion were supposed to make a game in the same *genre* Corporate espionage like stuff exept in full procedural world.

Actually it wasn't.  You played a thief and cracker and took on the corporations.  You weren't working for one.

Subversion was supposed to be a procedural crime game.  You'd could hack security systems (not: "there's a security system, click the 'hack' button" but a "there's a security system, here's it's wiring diagram, what do you do?" (acceptable answer: bribe someone)) and so forth.

In any case, I'm looking forward to this one.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: jocan2003 on March 06, 2013, 01:26:54 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on March 06, 2013, 11:23:26 am

Quote from: jocan2003 on March 06, 2013, 01:50:19 am

Introversion were supposed to make a game in the same *genre* Corporate espionage like stuff exept in full procedural world.

Actually it wasn't.  You played a thief and cracker and took on the corporations.  You weren't working for one.

Subversion was supposed to be a procedural crime game.  You'd could hack security systems (not: "there's a security system, click the 'hack' button" but a "there's a security system, here's it's wiring diagram, what do you do?" (acceptable answer: bribe someone)) and so forth.

In any case, I'm looking forward to this one.

Quote from: From Subversion Devlog part 14

Subversion is going to be set in a modern High Tech environment, with you taking "mission control" over a team of skilled operatives in a hostile High Security building. You will be using Sabotage, Social Engineering and Grifting, custom Electrical and Mechanical devices, Distractions, Hacking, Stealth, Acrobatics, Precision demolitions, Trickery, whatever gets the job done. In the best case scenarios your enemies will never know you were even there. When things go wrong, a well prepared escape plan and well timed precision violence will get you out of a tight spot - or maybe not.

Source: http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=2313

If thats not corporate espionage i wonder wtf it is. The only robber bonny and clyde thing i saw was from a scripted demo video.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 01:27:43 pm

Other than me mentioning Uplink, why the hell are people debating Subversion here?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: jocan2003 on March 06, 2013, 01:32:29 pm

Quote from: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 01:27:43 pm

Other than me mentioning Uplink, why the hell are people debating Subversion here?

Same genre. Read again youll see the link that brought us there. But yeah we can stop if you want.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: Xotes on March 06, 2013, 05:15:06 pm

Honestly this makes me think of Shadowrun, but with the player as Mr. Johnson.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: Neonivek on March 06, 2013, 05:17:37 pm

I think the movie could have been a bit shorter mind you. How many people does he have to mow down until the scene changes?

My thoughts on this game is in reserve, there are hints that this game is just a different version of Omerta but at the same time there could be something greater here. I'll have to wait until more is revealed.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 06:11:51 pm

Yeah, it was kind of cringe worthy that the guy shot 12? guys who all just fall over in a pile. I also kind of laughed when the agent approached the chick...and then proceeded to move her right, then left, then right again. If ever someone looked like they were pantomiming, that was it.

Other than those things, I thought the video was pretty cool.

Quote

there are hints that this game is just a different version of Omerta but at the same time there could be something greater here.

Being 100% textually driven, I think it's already delivering more promise than Omerta.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: Tellemurius on March 06, 2013, 06:20:20 pm

im sold for the idea, 30 bucks pledged

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: Neonivek on March 06, 2013, 06:31:22 pm

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Being 100% textually driven, I think it's already delivering more promise than Omerta

My major concern is that it could end up just like Omerta and that the entire strategy portion of the game is simply "Unlocking more options" so to speak. That there is no REAL gameplay... just like Omerta.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 06, 2013, 06:39:35 pm

Is there no way to speak to the dev ? Why doesn't someone invite him over here.

I would also like the game to be very deep and have a lot to it and be more of a simulation as well.

From what he has already released it does look very good, backed $20

Only if there was multiplayer it would be amazing.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: jocan2003 on March 06, 2013, 07:08:25 pm

I sent the dev a message, as soon i hear from him i will post news, or he will be faster and come here.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: Neonivek on March 06, 2013, 08:21:41 pm

There really is no need, only I get these constant irrational fears all the time.

Mine just stems from the fact that certain things are blocked off with question marks and while I know that there is unlocking certain actions (in a way that makes sense because afterall you cannot attempt to steal someone's research if you don't already know where their lab is) I don't know how much a part of the game that is overall.

The thing with Omerta was that it was fun but a shallow experience. It was a game that liked to give you the illusion of depth but that could be easily seen through.

This however is definately deeper then Omerta and I won't pretend that it isn't. I am ultimately wondering if this is a simple game at heart or a game that hides its inner depths with a simple demeener.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 08:33:49 pm

I hear you cluckin' big chicken. It's easy to imply that these systems have a lot of depth, that running missions isn't a 2 or 3 event experience, that really all the game is, is just knocking down companies as they show up and acquiring ultimately meaningless resources. That agents aren't just a collection of stats and a trait or two with some passive effects.

I look back Uplink and think "for all the depth the game had, it continually hit the same note for most of the game." Maybe Net Gain will be the same way, but for what he's probably going to be asking, I'm ok with that.

I'd study some of the plot screens a little closer, because that's where I saw stuff that started getting me excited. There's lot of different plots per mission type, different agents will be better at some than others, and then there's the mission events that are total unknowns, which may or may not be directly affected by Agent personality traits. Already on paper, that sounds better than that Omerta did, which was basically just a game about resourcing whoring with some awkward turn-based combat thrown in.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: Draco18s on March 06, 2013, 09:36:51 pm

Quote from: jocan2003 on March 06, 2013, 01:26:54 pm

Quote from: From Subversion Devlog part 14

Subversion is going to be set in a modern High Tech environment, with you taking "mission control" over a team of skilled operatives in a hostile High Security building. You will be using Sabotage, Social Engineering and Grifting, custom Electrical and Mechanical devices, Distractions, Hacking, Stealth, Acrobatics, Precision demolitions, Trickery, whatever gets the job done. In the best case scenarios your enemies will never know you were even there. When things go wrong, a well prepared escape plan and well timed precision violence will get you out of a tight spot - or maybe not.

Source: http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=2313

If thats not corporate espionage i wonder wtf it is. The only robber bonny and clyde thing i saw was from a scripted demo video.

That's....Leverage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leverage_%28TV_series%29).  Not a shadow war.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter
Post by: sparkbolt on March 06, 2013, 09:55:05 pm

Hi everyone!

Some of you sent me messages so of course I’d stop by! I love DF and have for awhile, and the whole concept of “Narrative Seeds” that are used to make those connected plots feel like a more elaborate story is something directly inspired by DF and interpreting my dwarves weird little choices.

I’ll see if I can hit on everything quickly:

>Subversion/Introversion
It broke my HEART when they shelved that project. Introversion has been another big source of inspiration in my work, from the pseudo-immersion of you as the broker, the interface, and of course that cool aesthetic!
Subversion would be perfect, but i think the lesson from that was those complex systems were taking so much time to develop for just one man that he never got around to the actual gameplay. That’s, what, NINE years of work?  I’m hoping to learn from that and, while still reasonably complex, the systems I’m creating are slimmer and more manageable, and designed to be playable and then built upon as needed.
While this definitely won’t be as detailed as subversion, it’s focus is pulled back and more on running these operations and having them support each other for a grander goal.

>Shadowrun
Hell yes. I know I’m mentioning a lot of inspirations here, but you guys hit on the core of them! Throw in a CKII and we’re golden!
Running shadowrun games for my friends is the origin of the whole Net Gain idea. I wanted to actually PLAY the Johnson and run that web of conspiracies!

>Trailer
It is what it is. I like it, and I’m glad we had the chance to make it, even on the threadbare budget. It’s got problems of course, but worked out pretty well for the time and money available.

>Omerta
I’ve only had some time with the demo, which was enough to kill my excitement for it. This doesn’t really follow the trend of unlocking things, but rather the expansion of the corp, finding targets and engaging them with missions, building support operations where you need them, managing your operative and their particularities, finding new (and cool!) assets and industries to develop and exploit, defending against rival attacks, dealing with any operations you discover, and hopefully a lot of rich narrative rewards along the way.

The “unlocking” aspect some of you talk about isn’t quite like that. It’s more that you can only run missions on Targets, and you investigate corps to uncover those targets. so you investigate a corporations lab to uncover their existing assets, then you can target the research for a theft mission!

>Complexity/depth
The game will be only most of the core features for the prototype release in June, but the rest of the year (and with funding going as it is, for quite awhile after!) will be spent developing those into the full 1.0 I’ve planned and beyond.

It IS important to me that the interactions remain intuitive. So there is more depth in things like the operative (as mentioned in today’s post) that, as the player, your interactions are mainly limited to that internal war of balancing resources and comparisons and intellectual thought. Like an operative’s traits are incredibly complex, and you should consider who they are whenever you use them, but it doesnt add an extra layer of buttons and switches and whatnot you have to go through.

Same with gear. The system is actually fairly simple, but that’s to keep it from being like trying to create a new shadowrun character every time you start a mission. Of course, I will respond to the community and add complexity (to a point) where it’s desired (i see resources being one of these), but I’d much rather make novel systems that can PERFORM complexity in a intuitive fashion. For example, I’m pretty proud of the loyalty and bonds system, that on the surface are easy to interact with, but due to the various things they tie into and all the ways you can modify it through *other* gameplay actions, it’s incredibly complex and important. Yet the information you need right away is a simple graph with a max loyalty, min loyalty, and any bond you might have.

The event system is a pain in the ass to make, but it’s actually hooked into a lot of the other systems in its interactions (traits, perk gear). Every new “rule tweak” added is another bump in development, but adds a wide range of unique events that can be made with all the variations and combinations of rule tweaks.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 10:32:13 pm

First off, thanks for stopping by this corner of the Bay.

I was a little hard on the trailer, but I actually really enjoyed it once I stopped being so picky. It was well structured and someone clearly has a director's eye. Once I realized it was kind of just a labor of love, it grew on me. I think I've watched it about 10 or 15 times now (for the music if i'm being honest.) The CG effects with the windows was pretty sweet. Anyways, I don't wanna bum anyone out about it, it was cool and while I certainly didn't need it to sell me on the Kickstater, it definitely started getting me immersed in the game world. For a shoe string budget you did pretty well.

Secondly, whoever has done your music gets my unadulterated thumbs up. (I'm the guy clamoring for more music in the Kickstarter comments.) It's got that exactly right mix of synth, distortion, melancholy and that 80s sense of dystopia. When I heard the trailer music, my brain went straight to Shadowrun. If you're not offering a digital soundtrack to the game as a reward or after release, strongly consider it. I'd buy. (Unless, you know, all the tracks are in the game directory....) Absolutely can't wait to hear more.

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Subversion

I don't talk about Subversion anymore. It hurts too much. Although Delay really needs to do something with that city generator, if nothing else.

An important question! As a fan of Dwarf Fortress, have you played Toady One's Liberal Crime Squad? Setting aside all the political themes and silliness, your game strongly reminded me of it.

And OMFG, that is a hell of an update! Neonivek, if you need game play info.....go read the Kickstarter update. I'm tickled pink at the descriptions you have of traits. Where many games would opt for something like "Aggressive: Do 10% more damage blah blah blah", it looks like you've linked traits to various activities and "rolls." That's what I was hoping for.

You said missions were dynamically generated...and now I'm starting to see what you mean. So what happens during missions is in part based on gear and traits? Or do they define your options when something does happen? Or....?

Couple last questions for you: I haven't seen a Rock Paper Shotgun article on Net Gain yet. Have you tried talking to those guys? Because if you want hardcore indie nerd monies....some exposure there can really help.

Following that, are you thinking about stretch goals at this point? Or is it that more money will help the game continued to be developed after release? Or possibly an even more glam-filled trailer of more corporate badassery? :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: Neonivek on March 06, 2013, 10:45:13 pm

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I was a little hard on the trailer, but I actually really enjoyed it once I stopped being so picky

It is a fine trailer. Given that the improvements I suggested was for it to remove scenes and not to add more of them. It says something.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 06, 2013, 10:56:34 pm

Quote from: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 10:32:13 pm

First off, thanks for stopping by the Bay.

My pleasure! I admit I'm not much of a forum guy... hence my last and ONLY other post here being back in 2009!

Quote

I was a little hard on the trailer...

Man, no one was harder on that trailer than me. I hate hate HATED it. Our post process got hit with all sorts of snags, we lost special effects guys and had no more money for more, and so on... That cable and antenna still bug the bajeezus out of me, but now I've come to love the rest. :) Speaking as someone who has never done film stuff before, it's heart wrenching to see your precious script get ripped apart and stitched back together. I think we hit pretty close to the original concept, still, so I'm happy about that... Realy I'm just happy people are getting the "feel" from it!
And yes, the director (Mike Chait) Has a great eye for action scenes, and plotted out that one-long-shot very well.

I'm also glad we had it because honestly, the game isn't pretty to look at in its current state (seen in update 1), and there are only so many mock ups I can make before it feels like cheating. :P The trailer provided some much needed OOMPH in the visuals and to give people the right sense of what we're going for.

Lhasa Mencur did the music for the trailer. We actually have a different guy doing music for the game, Richie Palys. you can hear one of his songs in the "Settings" part of the KS page.

Have you seen... aw whats it called.... Synekism! city building game. he's going for generated structures so it might get some of that same feel, though without the delicious cyber aesthetic that introversion does so well.

The first game of his I ever played was WWI medic, and I LOVED it! A few years later i started DF, then awhile after that I realized he was the same guy and tried all his other games! It's been awhile, though... I'll boot up LCS again and give it a spin.

the beauty of traits is it HAS that simple aggressive, +10% damage... but it doesnt end there. It's hooked into all the other systems that mean its not just some damage boost, but this guy is seriously aggressive and you'll have to deal with the problems that will have with the rest of the team or his personal life, or times he needs to keep his cool. (as in, the Bloody trait described!)

You should check over Update 2, it covers how missions and plots work a bit better (and my wrists are hurting from the 18 hour days at the keyboard :P)
But as far as events, both. they effect the events that come up and what choices you have. traits moreso than gear. gear is used to spend resources on challenges to make sure the op passes the test.

I've been trying RPS from the very start. They ARE my core fanbase, but they havent responded to anything yet. Honestly I think unless fans keep bothering them about us they're not going to listen to me shill it.

All the KS money is going straight into more development time, or possibly contracting programmers/artists as needed. So the higher the goal, the more time I can spend developing and building and adding on to Net Gain. This is my BABY, and I want to spend as much time with her as possible. The first stretch goal was teased in the last update: The War Room + Staff!

Depending on backer reaction and momentum to see if we even get anywhere near that one, I think the stretch goal after next will be prettttyyy interesting. Who knows how people would take it, but basically [REDACTED]!!!!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: Robosaur on March 06, 2013, 11:06:52 pm

The best part of Shadowrun was having a petite female 9 strength 9 body changeling adept with killing fists that do blast damage.
Will that be in the game?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2013, 11:12:48 pm

Quote

That cable and antenna still bug the bajeezus out of me, but now I've come to love the rest.

I keep looking at it trying to process what it means when I watch the video. It's like a compulsion at this point. :P

Quote

The trailer provided some much needed OOMPH in the visuals and to give people the right sense of what we're going for.

Pretty saavy, that. I didn't necessarily need the visual link to find the game concept interesting. But I can appreciate not everyone would make that leap. I guess that explains why you run so many parts of the trailer during your intro.

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Lhasa Mencur did the music for the trailer. We actually have a different guy doing music for the game, Richie Palys. you can hear one of his songs in the "Settings" part of the KS page.

I meant both. I've been playing the crap out of the one on the KS page at work. Give. Moar. Muzak!

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Update 2

Yeah, I hadn't received the email notice for some reason. I'm caught up now. Again, I just like that traits tie to so many aspects of performance, outcomes and options. It makes a trait believable, it makes the character itself believable and like you said, makes for good story threads.

Also...cybernetics. Awesome. So I gather their growth and resources and equipment ect...are all things they manage themselves? Any places for the player to individually upgrade or change them?

Quote

I've been trying RPS from the very start. They ARE my core fanbase, but they havent responded to anything yet. Honestly I think unless fans keep bothering them about us they're not going to listen to me shill it.

They should be drooling over this and punching their grandmas to be the first to write a clever title about it. Maybe that's what's taking so long. They're haven't come up with a clever enough title. They've admitted to being badgering into posting about games before. I've never pestered them to cover something, but I might have to for this.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 06, 2013, 11:42:39 pm

Quote from: Robosaur on March 06, 2013, 11:06:52 pm

petite female 9 strength 9 body changeling adept with killing fists that do blast damage.

Hah! Decidedly not! This may have just been my evil GM side that I kept from killing all my players, but one of the reasons i wanted to elevate play to the Broker was that i wanted people to DIE. This is *dangerous* work, and every time they go out for a run it's a serious risk. This will probably sound morbid, but I wanted people to form attachments to these characters only to have them captured and/or executed because the player fucked up, get that hardcore X-Com feel going on.

>Trailer
Yeah, we mainly did it because we had the opportunity, but it is a huge boon to appeal to a largely visual marketplace when your game is a super-niche strategy title.
I know my core fanbase just wants info on the game, the trailer helps bring in those edge cases that we need to get a game like this made, and hopefully expand the strategy demographic in the process!

I actually just got off the phone with Richie, who's going to be sending me a new song tomorrow!

they will automatically request or come with cybergear that is for their primary skills, and automatically pick up the gear they need as you assign them challenges in missions. Give them a surveillance challenge that they might not be skilled enough to pass? they'll grab a pair of multi-wave depth field binoculars (which allow them to use "resources" on surveillance tests). You can override their choices, of course. so if you're expecting things might get ugly, you might tell them to leave the binocs and hope for the best, while slapping a rifle in their hand and armor on their chest!
As for growth, yeah they'll autofocus on their main skills, but you can tell them to take a painting class instead.

I would greatly appreciate if you DID babger them to post! I love RPS and honestly it's the only news source I read with any regularity. I'td be an honor to get on there, and this game was made for adam smith to enjoy!  :D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: Robosaur on March 06, 2013, 11:56:52 pm

last time I lost a PC in a TRPG I had to take a bathroom break because I didn't want to start crying in front of my TRPG buds
wait why am I telling you this.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 12:07:14 am

So after really, really reading the monster updates you've done (which I'll now spoiler for lazy people)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Missions are the cornerstone of the game. Your role as Broker is to devise these missions to do whatever it takes for the corporation to profit!

The core elements of a mission are the Target, Objective, Security, Plots, and Assigned Operatives.

Your first missions are usually about generating Intel. Intel is an abstract value for how much you know about something. For a corp this is stuff like financial records, employee directories, executive holiday locations, morale surveys... anything that can be turned to an advantage! You target the Corporation you want to investigate (perhaps a rival robotics corp), and you'll be given a selection of objectives. For investigating, you could set up a spy operation, or just a one-shot investigation mission to collect a burst of Intel  Once you have Intel  it will be used to uncover targets within the corp you can plan runs on, such as their exposed assets or vulnerable staff.

There are three layers of security:

    Domain: The city you're running the mission in. The higher the enemy presence in the city, the higher their domain security.
    Location: The security of the location you're targeting. Bigger more important companies and corporations will have higher security
    Asset: If you are pursuing an asset, there may be additional security protecting it.


For each rank of security, you'll need a plot to get through that layer, and a final goal plot to complete your objective.

Plots are these small "narrative moments" that happen during your mission, such as using a fake passport to get by security, seducing a lonely secretary into letting you into a server room, casing a building for weaknesses, or so on. Depending on your target and objective, there may be a certain type of plot required: Investigating requires lots of plots about sneaking around, spying on things, talking with people, and occasionally a supporting hack or steal plot.

This is where your operatives on retainer chime in: if they think their skills are a good match, they'll recommend plots that could fit the type. The plots they recommend have challenges, numerical representations of something they must overcome by applying their skills. They may not be able to complete all the challenges in their plot, so you will assign other operatives to pick up the slack.

Plots come with more than challenges, though. Each one may have its own unique requirements, costs, or consequences for selecting. You'll have to determine how to best apply your resources to complete your objective.

You can also get plots based on advantages you've collected: If you've turned someone inside the enemy organization, you may get a proposal for a talk plot that calls on your mole to take care of things for you, keeping your operatives from facing more risky challenges at the cost of our hold on that double-agent.

If none of the proposals fit your needs, you can spend Intel to generate new "outside-the-box" plots, that may require hiring new operatives to fulfill the challenges involved.

Once you've build your road of plots to your goal, the mission is approved and set into action!
Mission is Go!

Your operatives will automatically attempt to follow the plan you outlined, using their skills and resources to overcome the challenges and reach their goal. most plots they will be able to resolve on their own, but sometimes if they fail, or simply by chance, they'll face a critical Event.

An Event can be good, bad, or a mix of both. The operatives will call on you for orders, and you'll have to decide what the best course of action is. Again, you might have some collected advantage that you can use here, depending on the crisis that comes up!

Ideally, the operatives complete their plots, make it to their objective, and escape... but things are never ideal! dilemmas or failure can force operatives into NEW plots, squeezed into the current plan. Depending on *how* things got off track, these could be car chases, elaborate cat and mouse games with assassins, finding hiding places for things to cool down, or possibly even a firefight! These plots must be completed, and then the operatives can usually get back on track if they resolve it carefully... but every plot that wasn't planned for means another chance for things to go wrong, your operatives burning unplanned resources, and possibly more dilemmas. As the broker, it's up to you to decide whether the operatives should continue on track, retreat, or wait for the heat to die down.

Heat is what happens when things go wrong. Depending on what and how, heat can stick to locations, operatives, corporations, or even brokers! Heat in a location makes security tougher, heat on an operative makes it harder for them to lie low, heat on a corp leads to bad press, sanctions, and counter-attacks, and heat on a broker - something that only occurs when things have truly hit the fan - can lead to you being targeted by your rivals who will attempt to hunt you down!

Sometimes the best solution is to have your operatives plow through it, and sometimes you'll want them lie low to wait for it to pass. If the operatives each their objective and there's still heat on the operatives or in the location, they'll have to make new impromptu plots to escape. Hopefully they're not too worn out, injured, or low on resources to make it through... being caught with stolen property is a quick way to the interrogation room!

Of course, the important part is the objective. As long as your goal is completed (and if you're stealing something, that at least one operative makes it back with the package), you'll seize the Net Gain! In the case of our investigation mission, our operative comes back with a load of Intel we can use to uncover assets for stealing, staff for turning, waits to hurt their reputation, straight up financial robbery, and all sorts of fun objectives!

Operations are a type of mission that, when complete, the operatives don't return to base - instead, they stay in the field and continually work the Goal Plot. You could, for example, set up a spy network in a rivals territory. Your detectives will hang around, continually sending back new Intel. It's still a risk, and if your men are exposed you'll have to plan a hasty extraction, but supporting operations can provide all sorts of useful benefits: Intel on corporations, resupply of resources for your operatives in the field, safehouse networks for them to hide when things go bad, "coyote" operations to smuggle operatives and supplies, smear campaigns... All of them use the same mission planning structure to put in place, then stay operational until a problem or you call your guys home.

Operatives

The operatives are the sword and shield of the Broker. They are the eyes and ears. They are your tools, your attack dogs, your advisors, and sometimes even your friends or enemies.

There are a many things that define a Operative: Their Name, Avatar, Profile, Traits, Skills, Statistics, Circles & Contacts, Resources, and Loyalty.

Their name, of course defines what they are called. An operative can also collect aliases as other corporations begin their attempts to find out just who was responsible for bombing that embassy their mole was working in. They may also start with an alias, as is popular in hacker and criminal circles.

Their avatar is their unique look: Different styles and colours to show off who they are! You can check on your operatives at any time, and see their avatar running through your missions, training hard, or idling at home enjoying the luxuries you enable them to buy.

The profile is like a profession: it defines the kinds of skills the operative generates (if not pre-made), the kinds of skills they prefer to develop, and can also have a few other tweaks such as their reactions to events and the kind of things they’ll acquire (see: Resources).

Originally this was hidden information but after talking to the community about the project, this will be represented as a small icon by their name to make it easier to sort and find the kind of person you want!

Traits are the core of an operatives personality, and one of the more complex systems. They can be good, bad, or anything in between. First, traits give you an idea of who that person is, from the name alone. It’s a “narrative seed” that helps you to build a larger personality and voice and mannerisms for that operative in your mind! Second, most traits have a direct and literal game changing impact.
Here are a few examples:

    Cheerful operatives do better on social tests and form connections to other operatives faster than most... unless the other operative has the trait Depressed, Curmudgeon, or the like... then the constant barrage of happiness just gets on their nerves!
    Addict operatives are less than ideal... while normally functioning people, they do tend to enjoy their vices on their time off. this can be a problem if you suddenly call them onto a mission, or if they’re assigned to a continuing operation, as they’ll perform worse on the job. If you check on them while they’re at home, you’ll probably notice the place is a bit of a mess, and they don’t tend to have a lot of money on hand.
    Bloody operatives certainly have their uses, getting large bonuses in assassination plots, firefights, and weapon skill challenges... but they’re also much more likely to start the firefight! if a plot goes wrong with a Bloody operative, the chances of sneaking away quietly drop significantly as the safety comes off.
    Orthodox operatives are great, getting a small bonus for one test per plot... as long as you planned for it. The minute you go off script, the Orthodox operative loses their cool, doing worse at almost everything! They’re great for stable operations and support, but not the kind of person suited to a more risky mission.


Traits can modify skill tests, what kinds of plots they recommend, the gear and property they acquire, their loyalty and how it changes, how they interact with each other, their responses to event (and what kinds of events they get), and more. Traits make up all the unique ways that operatives are more than just a set of skills.

When an operative faces a challenge, their school and stat determine the height of their success, and skills provide the base amount of success you can expect. While there may be other modifiers at play, that base success is what helps you to plan out your missions!

Skills are the reason you hire operatives: they’re used to break through the challenges in plots and advance towards your objectives. Skills are grouped into schools (Shortartms, Longarms, and Heavy are grouped under Firearms), giving the operative a synergy bonus to the other skills in that school. Say our sniper is forced into a pistol duel; while he wont have the certain success of his Longarms skill, the points it contributes to the Firearms skill gives him a chance.

Stats are the inherent abilities of your operative, providing a raw (and unpredictable) talent to related skills, and also providing the various forms of basic health and defense.

    Body is the operative’s core physical ability. It’s used in feats of strength, to determine the maximum amount of gear they can carry, cybernetics they can install, and as the amount of wounds they can take before going down.
    Agility is the operative’s speed, balance, and dexterity. It’s used for precision and reflex, determining the maximum amount of gear an operative can carry without being encumbered, and is used to “soak” attacks in combat, as they throw themselves into cover or hit the ground.
    Acuity is the operative’s intelligence and mental sharpness, used in a wide variety of skills. It also helps operatives in developing their skills, and acts as a sort of “health” for hackers when faced with a difficult barrier on the net.
    Integrity is the operative’s mental fortitude. It isn't used for many skills, but “soaks” the damage from a variety of non-physical attacks, such as intimidation, net barriers, social sparring, negotiations, morale loss from injuries, and so on.
    Personality is the operative’s sociability, how genial and easy to talk to they are... and how good they are at twisting words to their advantage! Used as the basis for social skills, and as a sort of “health” when engaged in a social conflict over contract terms, interrogations, seduction, or more!


Circles are the communities and networks an operative is connected to; a community that they talk to or work with or simply signed on with. Their immediate circle is in turn part of larger circles, connecting the various groups into pre-defined pools of people. A hacker probably has a small circle of her friends on the net, or a node network she hangs out in, and that in turn is connected to hacker communities around the world!

When your broker is looking for someone to hire, they have a selection of circles and favour with them. The stronger the connection, the better operatives the broker can hire from that circle. If a broker treats that social circle well, he’ll gain more favour, but if he starts to treat them poorly, kills too many of their people, or otherwise upsets them through events, all that favour can start to slip away. Brokers will make enemies, it’s part of the job, but make sure you’re making the right enemies and keeping the right friends!

Contacts are specific people within that circle that the operative knows and has a connection to. For example, when an operative signs on with a corporation, they join that circle and will owe a certain loyalty to it. But within that circle (if you treat them right, personally) they may begin to feel more of their loyalty is owed to *you* specifically. Operatives who work together will also begin to develop bonds with each other. Useful if they don’t much care for you, since they’ll stick around to be with their friends!

Resources are composed of five parts: The Resources Value, Gear, Cybernetics, Salary, and Property.

The Resources Value is an abstract representation of “stuff” provided by gear. During a mission, if an operative fails to pass a challenge, and they have gear that enables that School or Skill, they can use Resources to bump up their test to success! Budgeting resources is a vital part of planning missions. Whenever you assign the operative to a challenge, if there’s a gap between their skill and the challenge, the resources are marked as potentially spent. If the challenge is greater than the Operative's school and stat combined, it’s marked as confirmed to be spent.

Those resources are precious, and they will especially be vital if a mission goes off rails, and you face more challenges than originally planned. In times like that, it’s good to have saved some in reserve, or established an operation of Safe Houses that the operatives can stop and resupply in.

Gear is the wide range of equipment the operatives can bring with them on missions. There are three general “types” of gear:

    School Gear allows them to spend resources on any challenge for a certain school. The SkyEye Minidrone allows for resources to be spent on Presence checks, useful for detecting ambushes and spotting small details.
    Skill Gear allows them to spend resources for a specific skill in a school but with a small bonus. A V-80 Hellion Sniper Rifle would be a piece of gear that enables the operative to spend resources on [Firearms:Longarms] challenges, and provides a bonus while doing so.
    Perk Gear is more varied, and can provide an artificial bump to a stat, skill, or other tweak. Golem Fullplate Body Armor gives an extra 2 points to body, but only for soaking hits!


Cybernetics are similar to gear, and are limited by Body as well. Unlike gear, cybernetics can’t just be swapped in and out, and require a lot of money and time to install. Usually it’s best to get cybernetics you think the operative will use often, and use gear to pick up the slack.

Salary is simply the amount you pay the broker each time you collect your budget. Most of it is spent maintaining their lifestyle (see:Property), and some is collected in a small slush fund they’ll use to but new property, gear or cybernetics they personally want, or just to save up for a rainy day.

Property is all the stuff your operative owns, all the lovely shiny toys they can buy with that hard earned money. It consists of furniture, gadgets, tool benches, huge wall-sized TVs, servant androids, security, and fancier apartments and penthouses. The more they get paid the more they can spend, though like most people, operatives fall into the trap of increasing their expenses through rent and other property. You can check up on your operatives and see what property they decided to acquire, often reflecting their traits.

Finally, there’s the loyalties an operative holds. Out of 100%, an operative’s loyalty is divided among her circles: the communities she belongs to, and the corporation that hired her. Within those divisions of loyalty, an operative can have specific ties of loyalty to other contacts... not always a good thing if you get her friend at the corp killed!

Where an operative’s loyalty lies is never a clear answer, but you do have a general sense of what her potential lowest and highest loyalty to the corporation is. There are many ways to make that loyalty more clear, and to discover any loyalties she might hold to other circles (or corporations!), whether through events, keeping her close to HQ, or even running missions to spy on your own operatives!

Loyalty is an ever shifting thing in Net Gain, as dozens of things can impact where they stand. As a general rule, paying them well and keeping them alive is enough to make operatives happy. Getting a salary for being on retainer is a pretty nice deal for most of your operatives! If an operative is in danger, faces challenges they’re not up to, getting injured, or finds out such things happened to one of their contacts or circles, their loyalty will drop respective to the damage done. Events can also change loyalties in unexpected ways.

Take the example of Conrad finding love on the battlefield. If he pursues that option, he’ll certainly be happy that you didn't interfere, and will most likely gain loyalty to you, but he’ll also gain a chunk of loyalty for this new person (who just so happens to be part of a rival corporation!). You might be able to exploit that bond later, or if the other corporation finds out, they might try to use it against Conrad! Of course, you could always tell him to stay on task, but snuffing the flame of passion is rarely taken well...

Loyalty isn't always given, but sometimes held. A bond sets a minimum loyalty “lock” on an operative, preventing their loyalty from dropping below that point. A bond is put on an operative when you hire them, the security of employment keeping them from making rash decisions when things get bad. Bonds can also be placed through less ethical means, such as blackmail or holding hostages (ideally a method only used on your enemies!). Each bond has a strength determined by what placed it: how much you’re paying them, or how incriminating the blackmail is.

Whenever loyalty would drop below this bond, the bond is instead strained, eventually returning to normal. Press someone far enough, though, and the bond will shatter, loyalty will plummet, and often disastrous consequences can follow! For a weak salary bond, this could simple be the operative quitting, but for stronger bonds it could lead to long and bloody vendettas!

I hope you enjoyed this recap of the many systems that power the operatives, creating complex characters who will react in surprising ways, and give your world life!
Specialists

Specialists are just like Operatives, but during generation a Specialist has a much higher limit for their starting stats, skills, and resources!
Stretch Goals!

I didn't think I’d be writing about these so soon, but as we close in on the goal, it may be time to start teasing some of the expanded content I have planned. Funding above the goal means more time developing additional features that didn’t quite make it into 1.0!

The first goal I have planned is at the $25,000 mark: The War Room.

The War Room is where the magic happens. Off on one side, the finely furnished office of the Broker, with a resplendent view of the city below. Through the office door, the pit of cubicles, filled with analysts and handlers scurrying about, eagerly doing their jobs, while your off-duty operatives mill about stealing the doughnuts from the break room.

The war room can be expanded with funds from the budget, adding in exercise rooms and shooting ranges for your operatives, extra banks of servers for collecting Intel, massive maps on screens for tracking global actions, support staff for your operations in the field, or slip den for your weary staff to take a break and fall into some virtual reality.

This “ant farm” of activity will not only get you a behind-the-scenes peek at the support that goes on to keep your operatives running, but each new upgrade comes with perks to enhance the corporation and operatives!

The War Room also unlocks Staff: these lead managers and advisors work directly under you, taking on important roles of the shadow war and giving passive bonuses to the team based on their own skills. The staff is comprised of operatives you can hire, and is a great way to retire those operatives that have served long and well, but at this point know too much to risk in the field. A comfy desk job will put their skills to use and keep them out of harms way! Of course, if you really need them you could always call them back into the field for one last job...

There's something I'm a little unclear on. You allot resources to each Operative. Do you pull that from a general resource pool, i.e. your warchest? Is there a cap on the amount of resources an Operative can have? I was thinking it was all "go in, roll against your stats, have a random event, succeed or fail..." but it reads like even an ill-suited Operative can accomplish a lot with a ton of available resources.

Like, I'm kind of staggered by how complex you've built this up to be. The video can't even begin to describe this stuff. The heat on Operatives, Locations, Corps and the player. The interplay between an Operative's contacts, circles and their loyalty, how their loyalty is fluid based on a ton of stuff if it interacts with their circles, rep with different circles affecting hiring, losing Operatives screwing up rep with circles, how you can plot against your own Operatives....can you point to a % of what you talked about as implemented vs. not? I was excited before, now I'm frothing at the mouth a little. Is there a cap on Agents? Difficulty modes?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 07, 2013, 01:30:35 am

so operatives have a "resource" value, and gear. gear is what lets them spend resources on tests. both are limited by Body. And yes, resupply costs money from the slush fund to stock Resources. its mainly go in and roll against stat/skill, and on occasion a random event (not every time) that youll need to choose. the resources are mainly for SAVING rolls, if you roll too low. or, if youre a daredevil, for taking on challenges you shouldn't and spending resources to let an op reach a high challenge. IF an op had a ton of available resources (They dont) the could do a lot... but only in the skills their gear lets them. if they get in a firefight with no weapon, they're on their own.

I'm a bit worried about that really... i tried to tell people I was talking about our goals for 1.0, NOT what was in the prototype or current build, but im not sure if that sunk in.

The core systems are designed to start simply, and grow into the things I have planned. for example loyalty by the time the prototype comes out will probably just be for circles (as it is now), and mostly only factor in to if they hit the bottom and quit. I'll put in as many links to it as I can, performance on missions and salary definitely, but other links will have to come later.

The heat system will be in but with limited effects: it does raise security in the area, require extra plots, etc.... but the systems that put heat on the broker (i.e. operatives being captures/turning, enemies spying on the corp) will probably not be in by prototype.

rep with circles is mostly in, i think it should be mostly implemented by prototype. plotting against your own ops is *techincally* possible but the gameplay systems that give you a REASON for doing so aren't in, and that feature is actually probably a few months away as it's not a core feature.

Hopefully that doesnt sour your taste too much!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: Fniff on March 07, 2013, 01:38:02 am

Always great when a dev stops by.

So, out of curiosity, does the game start out at "cyberpunk dystopia" or can you start out at 2012 and run into the ground as a horrific dystopia in a reverse Liberal Crime Squad fashion?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 01:51:56 am

Quote

Hopefully that doesnt sour your taste too much!

Not at all. It might explain why you may not have gotten coverage though, if it's unclear what's actually developed and what's not. I saw the mockup thinking that was it. Mockups are ok if you're upfront with them, which you were, but mockup isn't quite a demo. FWIW, it doesn't seem to have dissuaded people so far. (Your funding goal has a ton to do with that, I think.)

That said....if you've been following what Banner Saga has been going through, you know people don't necessarily read the updates or even the fine print. I actually didn't, before I backed. And your updates are pretty meaty. If you're going to do another large update with stuff that isn't core to the game, in and working right now, you might want to open up with that fact. Or maybe the topic warrants an update all its own. (But possibly after you've hit your funding goal ;) .) I wouldn't worry too much, but the more you reveal of your design doc to people, the more they will begin to question how much is done/your ability to do it. Because in a sense you're promising features when they're bullet-pointed out.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 07, 2013, 02:27:19 am

This whole thing was a bit of an unfortunate situation, because I WANTED to lead with a prototype. Like release it at the BEGINNING of the kickstarter... but the problem was I was so strapped for time that I had to decide between working on this or making a living. So I went with launch early. if it fails, give up and find a more stable line of work.

Lucky for me, it didnt fail!(knock on wood?)

Maybe I should link to the updates on the front page? I thnk that will help, ill try that tomorrow. I have no desire to make people think this is something more than it is, I just want to let them know where we're going... And I figured people would rather take the ride with me than do one of these kickstarters where you don't get to see the game for a year and a half!

Quote from: Fniff on March 07, 2013, 01:38:02 am

So, out of curiosity, does the game start out at "cyberpunk dystopia"

...Dystopia? Dystopia... I don't know what you're talking about, but this is cyberpunk Utopia! Sweet desk, infinite wealth, beautiful view, a company car, ultimate power, that sexy lady in accounting, stealing thirty years of research, close parking spot, dental... this is the GOOD life.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 07, 2013, 03:28:00 am

I hope we hit the stretch goal for the war room so badly it would add so much more gameplay and it would look cool seeing your ops running about and doing stuff :D

One question I have is can we also buy buildings and maybe manufacturing stuff ? So if you bought a standard house or apartment near a rival corps building or home of another rival op would it be factored in and help with planning missions and could use it as a fob or other things ?

Will operator health be dynamic ? So it's not just hp but your op could end up getting tortured and lose a eye or a arm, or have someone mash one up bad enough that he will be crippled if you don't help he out.

We need more coverage for this ! Hopefully you get a Rock paper shotgun or PC gamer article is there anyway we can help him out with this ?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: Kaje on March 07, 2013, 07:01:42 am

I don't know if you've ever dabbled in long-distance mind reading, but this game (or at least the paper concept) is so close to my idea of the perfect game that I could swear you've stolen my thoughts.

I love it, and I have no doubt it will surpass the goal by some way!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 09:48:42 am

I have some good news for you sir.

Quote

I've had it on my enormous list of things to write about since some time last week, but your email just pushed it straight to the top. Thanks for the badgering :)
-Adam

My mission was successful.

Let's hope this gets you connected to the crowd monies you need!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: gimlet on March 07, 2013, 10:22:44 am

I'm in - I've been waiting for a game like this. A few months ago I even went back and scoured the old Shadowrun rules for the corporate warfare bits - I don't think there's been a real game of corporate warfare since ruthless.com. (OK except for near-purely financial competition like Wall Street Raider and Capitalism)

I don't know how you're going to implement the activities of rival brokers and corporations, I do hope you might  find a way to expose their strategizing for modding - like lua/python code in the exposed assets directory maybe.  It'd be neat to tinker with different strategies...

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 10:49:51 am

Also, just a request driven by my time playing LCS.....code names. What's an Op without a code name? Either having the game generate one or letting us set the string ourselves would be sweet. That was one of those things that really, really made me attached to my operatives in LCS.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 07, 2013, 11:50:01 am

Quote from: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 10:49:51 am

Also, just a request driven by my time playing LCS.....code names. What's an Op with a code name? Either having the game generate one or letting us set the string ourselves would be sweet. That was one of those things that really, really made me attached to my operatives in LCS.

I think it was said ops will pick up codenames and stuff as they preform operations ?

Also I have upped my pledge would be rather cool to have your own operator.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 07, 2013, 01:07:29 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 07, 2013, 03:28:00 am

I hope we hit the stretch goal for the war room so badly it would add so much more gameplay and it would look cool seeing your ops running about and doing stuff :D

Oh man me too! I think it'd really give the player a sense of foundation and home as well, and see that his whole operation is a big deal (and see it grow as he gains more analysts and team support and space, etc)

Quote

One question I have is can we also buy buildings and maybe manufacturing stuff ? So if you bought a standard house or apartment near a rival corps building or home of another rival op would it be factored in and help with planning missions and could use it as a fob or other things ?

you acquire/found companies, which can be in different locations. In theory runners with a friendly company nearby would be able to hide/resupply there since its friendly territory, but I'm not sure when IU'd be able to implement the mechanics to enable that. Normally you focus more on operations though, no building... so you'd set up a safehouse operation in the territory, giving your guys safe respite.

Quote

Will operator health be dynamic ?

the wounds system is mainly hp... though a wound is pretty serious, and will require recovery time for the runner (and possibly expensive repairs, depending on how cybered he is). the game is very lethal though, and those scant few wounds mean an op usually goes from fine to badly wounded to dead. think Classic Ironman XCom). Unlike the shooty-friendly shadowrun, you really dont want your guys getting in a firefight. hopefully once traits become a bit more dynamic (post-prototype), they'll be able to get those grievous injuries added as traits when something horrible happens to them.

Quote from: Kaje on March 07, 2013, 07:01:42 am

I don't know if you've ever dabbled in long-distance mind reading, but this game (or at least the paper concept) is so close to my idea of the perfect game that I could swear you've stolen my thoughts.

Nonsense! Everyone knows there's no such thing as mind reading... you really should consider improving the firewall on your dream backup hard drive, though. Any script kiddie can get in there.

Quote from: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 09:48:42 am

I have some good news for you sir.

Quote

I've had it on my enormous list of things to write about since some time last week, but your email just pushed it straight to the top. Thanks for the badgering :)
-Adam

My mission was successful.

Excellent work, operative! We've had RPS in our crosshairs since we started! I think this calls for a promotion!
(But seriously, that calls for a promotion. Send me a message with the name you pledged with and we'll see about bumping you up a tier!)

Quote from: gimlet on March 07, 2013, 10:22:44 am

I don't think there's been a real game of corporate warfare since ruthless.com.

I've been looking for games like this for YEARS and never found any! I JUST found out about ruthless.com when a fan suggested it reminded them of the old game! I'l definitely be raiding them for ideas.

Quote

I don't know how you're going to implement the activities of rival brokers and corporations, I do hope you might  find a way to expose their strategizing for modding - like lua/python code in the exposed assets directory maybe.  It'd be neat to tinker with different strategies...

The corp AI, while complex in many ways, has to be a simpler form than the player's missions simply because of how many operations go on at one time. Kind of like how world gen battles and actual DF fights are different. The corps do have values that determine various things such as how aggressive or desperate they'll get, which changes how they go about attacking, who, and at what risk.

Quote

Aliases

they got em! I'll probably include codenames you can assign when they sign on with you as well, but most of their aliases they either start with or earn as rivals try to find out who the hell attacked them. they'll assign a codename on the "threat" and try to find out who the actual target under that alias is.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 07, 2013, 01:23:43 pm

sorry to pester you spark but would it be possible to get your views on multiplayer ? could it happen ?

also : http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/03/07/strategic-syndicates-net-gain/

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 07, 2013, 01:45:57 pm

I love the idea, but there is so much stuff going around on kickstarter these days..

I'll watch this one but will wait a demo before actually founding.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 02:58:11 pm

Looks like you're getting a nice little bump from the RPS article.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 07, 2013, 03:41:47 pm

Hmm. I think I'll watch this one for now.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 07:17:31 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 07, 2013, 01:23:43 pm

sorry to pester you spark but would it be possible to get your views on multiplayer ? could it happen ?

From the Kickstarter comments:

Quote

Joel: Multiplayer would be great, but it *significantly* increases the scope of the game! A lot of time and development goes into just letting people get in the same room, let alone allowing them to play in the same space and interact with each other and balance that interaction, etc, etc. If it's a stretch goal, It'd be pretty far above where we'd be able to get! I'm not ruling it out for future expansions, but it's far out of scope for 1.0.

Possible, but definitely not for 1.0.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 08, 2013, 01:43:19 am

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 07, 2013, 01:23:43 pm

views on multiplayer?

Yeah, as the other guy mentioned, it's a *significant* increase in work load. If we hit a high enough stretch goal that I can bring someone else on, it's a possibility for something that could be built in tandem to the core game, but that would require finding the right programmer to join the team and hitting a stretch goal high enough to bring them on.

We can probably still work some multiplayer in the sense that DF has multiplayer... depending on how the world saves out, you may be able to swap it around with other people! Probably not at release but it's something that could be set up.

It was more than a bump! shot us right out of the slump!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: Neonivek on March 08, 2013, 03:10:40 am

It makes sense because the major difference is that there are elements that have to work together that arn't a factor in the regular game. Essentially multiplayer adds another layer ontop of the game.

The ONLY multiplayer I can think of that would be easier would be a Co-op mode that essentially just divides your company in half... But even that has its own issues and would need balancing to even do right.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 08, 2013, 02:12:54 pm

Hey, you're funded. Grats!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: Neonivek on March 08, 2013, 02:18:28 pm

Quote from: nenjin on March 08, 2013, 02:12:54 pm

Hey, you're funded. Grats!

They deserve every dollar.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Dev says hi!
Post by: nenjin on March 08, 2013, 03:04:39 pm

Thanks for the new muzak, it's sweet.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 08, 2013, 05:40:50 pm

Thank you for the support, Bay12 Backers! I knew you guys would like the game, I feel like DF players will have a lot in common with NG players.

I *am* trying to go for more intuitive interfaces and gameplay over complexity of detail (no assigning mismatched socks to your operatives!), but I think the compromise will balance out well, especially in giving you that delegating BOSS feeling. I want people to be leaning back in their chairs, scratching their chins, and having an evil smile creep over their face as their elaborate scheme unfolds beautifully before them!

(or, quickly leaning forward and muttering "no... no no NO NO NO!!!" as Frank Merrick turns the corner into a full CorpSec platoon, flings a grenade in a panic, and starts to run!)

Multiplayer is pretty damn far out for a stretch goal... if we actually HIT that 60k we've been trending for I could definitely find someone to hire, but as we all know that trend line is about to take a huuuge dip for the mid-KS lulls. Even super simple multiplayer as easy as working for the same corp has THOUSANDS of things you have to consider that you probably never realized that bloat production time. The biggest thing are "checks". What if someone fills a company with assets right when you try to load yours in? What if someone kills a target right when you try to use them in a mission elsewhere? what if you're in the middle of a run when a corp goes Bankrupt!?
With a single player, I can make lots of assumptions about what is happening in the world that let me quickly get gameplay in there, but with multiplayer every little change has to be vetted.

But yes co-op would be awesome. you wouldn't even need to divide the company, you'd just both be brokers working at the same corp, either supporting each other or working on diff targets. God damn that sounds fun.

Actually, you guys might know: Where are the best communities to find (reliable) programmers who would be interested in the project? Ideally I would work with someone in Chicago I can meet face to face, but I know that's a pretty small pool, and I've been considering working with people online to broaden my pool and hopefully find some programmers that really meet my strict criteria for collaboration (who are willing to work on the same threadbare budget I'm running!)

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 08, 2013, 05:43:41 pm

Hmm...well, Dice is always a good place to find people with a specific skill set and location. Getting people cheap or part time...that's harder. But I'd probably still use dice as a resource.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: quip on March 08, 2013, 06:24:47 pm

It's good to see this project getting funded, I'm excited to see what happens to it!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 08, 2013, 06:54:10 pm

By the way, what platform are you programming in?

Just out of curiosity.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 08, 2013, 06:57:56 pm

Please don't say Flash. Please don't say Flash.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 08, 2013, 07:22:07 pm

Unity with C#!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 08, 2013, 08:36:20 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 08, 2013, 07:22:07 pm

Unity with C#!

I wondered about that.  Unity is a great platform.  3.5 or 4?  Probably 3.5, even my office hasn't upgraded to 4 yet.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 08, 2013, 09:07:58 pm

4! Though admittedly there's not much in the new engine that I'm using... but when they eventually merge NGUI with Unity I'll be ready!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: GalenEvil on March 08, 2013, 10:01:20 pm

/me uses Unity + C# to develop!

Awesome that you are using it :D It's a lot of fun to work with. NGUI is a great tool and is so much better than Unity's default GUI system

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Aklyon on March 08, 2013, 10:10:32 pm

Woo, Unity.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 08, 2013, 10:41:51 pm

Quote from: GalenEvil on March 08, 2013, 10:01:20 pm

NGUI is a great tool and is so much better than Unity's default GUI system

S'why they hired the guy to make the unity GUI! He's basically making an improved NGUI without the stupid depth/layer restrictions. Supposed to be a 4.5 feature.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 08, 2013, 11:00:40 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 08, 2013, 10:41:51 pm

Quote from: GalenEvil on March 08, 2013, 10:01:20 pm

NGUI is a great tool and is so much better than Unity's default GUI system

S'why they hired the guy to make the unity GUI! He's basically making an improved NGUI without the stupid depth/layer restrictions. Supposed to be a 4.5 feature.

Sweet.

Any idea if it'll have any pixel-placement options?  I find that a lot of times I'm having to convert a designed interface into Unity, but don't have exact placement capabilities.  I've got to do things in "fractions of container width" (using iGUI, after having several bad experiences with the default GUI system¹).

Often I'm designing for a specific screen size (the iPad) so flexible and responsive GUI layouts aren't as important as "this button has to be exactly 35 pixels tall and 87 pixels wide, or the texture gets all junky."  (Had to have the design guy redesign the button twice, actually, because he kept ignoring 9 slice scaling rules; current button only scales horizontally, but it's sufficient).

¹Notably the inability to have two different colored pieces of label text (or type face, including bold or italics) without creating a whole new custom GUIskin.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 09, 2013, 05:23:25 am

Op you could always use something like this to keep upto date with a kick start

(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage/minichart.png) (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage/)

Also can't till the next update :D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Neyvn on March 09, 2013, 05:47:25 am

I was quite impressed by the idea and everything, just put forth my addition to it. Another 20$ will help right :P

Can't wait to play it too, sounds like its gonna be something enjoyable...

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 09, 2013, 02:56:01 pm

Thanks SW, that's certainly easier than 12 edits a day :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mullet Master on March 09, 2013, 03:50:49 pm

Threw my money in too - I'm excited about the game.
Cyberpunk has always been grossly underrepresented in almost all game genres - I want to encourage any respectable project.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 10, 2013, 03:14:18 pm

Quote

Any idea if it'll have any pixel-placement options?

Check out NGUI, I'm pretty sure it already has the features you're talking about!.

I'm keeping an eye on this thread, and wanted to give another big thank you! Your pledges are keeping this train rolling along, and it looks like we have a good chance of getting the War Room!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 10, 2013, 03:18:48 pm

Please keep in touch with us here as well sparkbolt! :)

And if you ever have any problems I'm sure someone in the community can help you out and I can't wait to play the prototype of your game it's gonna be amazing.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 10, 2013, 03:26:25 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 10, 2013, 03:14:18 pm

Quote

Any idea if it'll have any pixel-placement options?

Check out NGUI, I'm pretty sure it already has the features you're talking about!.

Will do.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 10, 2013, 03:29:11 pm

Hey SB, I shot you a PM here through the forums.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 10, 2013, 05:01:39 pm

I got it, Nenjin! note added to your backer profile.

Im actually trying to find a good place to host the conversation about the game... I'm not really a forum guy, and I was hoping to get people to start talking on the FB page,but that doesn't seem to be happening. The KS Comments are active but that's not going to be that way for long. The conversation is healthy over at /tg/, but that's not really a permanent community-building thing like FB or forums... and while I do have forums up at LZG, again, I'm not really a forum guy so I'm not sure how much action they'll see.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 10, 2013, 11:13:55 pm

Well, I decided to go ahead and back it. Should be fun!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Neyvn on March 11, 2013, 09:49:53 am

I don't want to sound Grabby or anything. But remind me what the 20$ backing gives me...

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 11, 2013, 11:22:12 am

Quote from: Neyvn on March 11, 2013, 09:49:53 am

I don't want to sound Grabby or anything. But remind me what the 20$ backing gives me...

The satisfaction of knowing you helped an awesome project succeed.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 11, 2013, 12:04:51 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on March 11, 2013, 11:22:12 am

Quote from: Neyvn on March 11, 2013, 09:49:53 am

I don't want to sound Grabby or anything. But remind me what the 20$ backing gives me...

The satisfaction of knowing you helped an awesome project succeed.

Also the game and all of its updates forever

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 11, 2013, 12:06:45 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 11, 2013, 12:04:51 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on March 11, 2013, 11:22:12 am

Quote from: Neyvn on March 11, 2013, 09:49:53 am

I don't want to sound Grabby or anything. But remind me what the 20$ backing gives me...

The satisfaction of knowing you helped an awesome project succeed.

Also the game and all of its updates forever

/me somehow read that as "less than $20"

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 11, 2013, 03:05:10 pm

Heheheh... yes, the $20 and up all get the core game, from prototype on, and all content updates to Net Gain: Corporate Espionage. Basically the same deal people have with Minecraft if that helps illustrate.

If people choose the Mobile Ops reward, then everyone (literally everyone, since it's free) will get access to Mobile Ops as well. If you have the core game, you can integrate Mobile Ops with that.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 12, 2013, 04:46:21 am

Hey spark with your latest update I have been thinking.

We playing as the brokers if we reach war room will we get out own sort of character in game ? Will we get the chance to get better Salary get up higher in the corporation, be a double agent and bring a corporation down to its knees from the inside. Or if we are not happy simply find a new company which will higher us on?

Also I know we have operatives > specialists will there be any more like a professional rank or something ?

How I see it and would describe it in a military term would be:

The private in a infantry regiment would be a operative.

The Sgt. who is a ammo technician in the military is a specialist and can defuse munitions and also set up explosives

While the guy in the SAS would be a professional and can do it all.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: BlindKitty on March 12, 2013, 01:29:05 pm

I've got to admit, I was sold from the very beginning - but to sound a little bit more dramatic, I could say that I was sold once I heard of cyberpunk utopia. XD Longer I read this, more I want the game - I've put my 20$ into the Kickstarter and I really wish it would end sooner. 'Cos honestly, man, if I up my pledge, I'm going to walk another year in the same pants or something. ;)
My biggest problem with cyberpunk was that I always had too much ideas around it. Like my right-sided, bow-wielding paramedic. Right - sided for having cyber-arm, cyber-leg, cyber-eye and cyber-hair on right side of his body. :P
Of course, he was in so much debt for corpo that paid for his implants that he would make a great operative... See? There I am, once again tempted to pay you, instead of paying bills. :P

On a little more serious note - I really, really hope for warroom. :) It'd be great. :)

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 12, 2013, 03:15:48 pm

Damn! RPS has once AGAIN snubbed us for the kickstarter round up. I was REALLY hoping to get in there so we might hit our higher stretch goals, but I don't think Adam cares for our project; He donated a dollar to say our $20 price was too high on the public comment thread, then cancelled the pledge... I thought RPS would be all over a project like this, but apparently not. :( We'll just have to find another way to get the word out there, I guess.

Honestly it may just be that since we hit our goal they dont think we should be on the list, even just a quick mention in the Winners section, since we weren't on it before we were "winners". Hopefully having a reasonable (and honestly extremely low) goal in order to make sure this thing happens isn't going to prevent us from getting the press we need.

BlindKitty: Hah! I've been wearing the same pants for quite a few years now :P
The war room is definitely happening! Second stretch goal, a bit more unlikely, but we'll see if we can get some press to carry us forward.

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 12, 2013, 04:46:21 am

We playing as the brokers if we reach war room will we get out own sort of character in game?

The broker is supposed to be YOU, the player sitting at his "terminal". so you have in game resources and circles, but you wont see a avatar. you'll eventually get a salary and such and gain influence to rise up in the corp, and you will be able to change corporations (at significant cost), but working on your own or against the corporation is a stretch goal we're probably not going to hit. If the game does well and we keep getting funding to continue development, it's certainly notout of the question, and is one of the leading post 1.0 features.

"Specialists" is just a term for an operative with better stats/skills than the average guy. the game is very classless and levelless, relying on the character's power to speak for itself instead of an abstract "level".

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 12, 2013, 03:35:20 pm

Lame.

Well, we believe in you!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: BlindKitty on March 12, 2013, 04:17:00 pm

@sparkbolt: That's exactly the problem I've got with my pants (those I already have, that is): they won't survive much longer, since they are quite a few years old already. :P And don't be too worried about RPS. We, the Bay-Twelvers, will spread the word wherever we can, however we can. Am I right, or what? :D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 12, 2013, 05:03:48 pm

I can't see you NOT meeting your War Room stretch goal, you have 18 days left and only need another $4750 - that's more than doable.

I'll be able to drop $20 down next week!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 12, 2013, 06:12:47 pm

Lessons for the future I guess.

I don't think $20 to get access to the game is anything exorbitant. Every project I've backed starts your copy of the game at between $10 and $20....

What's probably going on is people are looking at the game, assuming a final release price and going "$20 is too much for what will be a $10 game!"

Despite you having never stated the final price.

Yet it's something that people seem to have picked up on, the gap between showing interest and actually getting the game. I find that a little strange since I can look at plenty of projects that go from "Pledge $1 to $5 for something stupid" to "Pledge $15-$20 and get the game!"

Despite the extremely low pledge goal, I think some people still expect a 1 man operation to be shooting lower than that for the entry fee. Are they right? I dunno. Your game has struck me as a $10 to $20 game. I was excited by the prospect so I accepted the upper end. But people that are on the fence, I can appreciate the $10 difference is too much for what seems like the bedroomiest of bedroom development.

Still, of all the people I thought would pull a move like that (donating to make a comment then canceling), members of the RPS staff were the last. It may have ultimately to do with the state of development and its presentation when the KS launched.

In their defense though, there are lots of Kickstarter games they mention that they don't follow up on and they've said before there's not always enough time or manpower to cover them all.

I'd be just be thankful you got that initial bump, the word is out. You may not get redonkulous levels of funding, but I'd be surprised if you don't surpass your own stretch goals. Besides, sometimes success can be a burden too. I've seen enough Kickstarters that began small and exploded...and their devs have struggled to keep up with their popularity on the internet.

I'm curious as to Adam's reasoning.....but having gone to school for Journalism, I know they're loathe to explain themselves unless they're cornered.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 06:36:56 pm

$20 is more or less the most average of prices I've seen these days (not counting console games). THe only thing I'd backed that was less than $10 for the game itself was Code Hero ($1), and that seems to have run into problems, but not showstopper ones.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mullet Master on March 12, 2013, 07:04:45 pm

I think any editor of RPS has no room to call any game overpriced. They allowed a full page ad for PA for a long time, and it's only an alpha. And a poor one at that. What do the hell they care about a game's price?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 12, 2013, 07:23:50 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 06:36:56 pm

$20 is more or less the most average of prices I've seen these days (not counting console games). THe only thing I'd backed that was less than $10 for the game itself was Code Hero ($1), and that seems to have run into problems, but not showstopper ones.

From another forum

Quote from: 'Draco18s'

Quote from: 'Seriously Mike'

However, their "preorder" donation tier is a bit higher than usual.

...$20?

Not really.

Hero-U (http://"https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1878147873/hero-u-rogue-to-redemption"), $20
Star Citizen (http://"https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen"), $30
Blackspace (http://"https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1035580424/blackspace-plan-dig-defend-survive"), $35 Earlybird
FTL: Faster Than Light (http://"https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/64409699/ftl-faster-than-light"), $25
SRO (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1964352341/shadowrun-online/), $25 (for the campaign server / non-subscription multiplayer)
SRR (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/), $15

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 12, 2013, 07:41:10 pm

Quote from: Mullet Master on March 12, 2013, 07:04:45 pm

I think any editor of RPS has no room to call any game overpriced. They allowed a full page ad for PA for a long time, and it's only an alpha. And a poor one at that. What do the hell they care about a game's price?

He is entitled to a personal opinion, as a gamer and a person, since most of video games are about subjective taste and preferences. And I'd say it's at least part of his responsibility to notice stuff like price/content on behalf of readers. (Although if he felt that way, he didn't make it clear in the article.) Still, harsh beans. When I think of the projects where people have fake pledged just to say something...it generally hasn't been for good reasons. (SB, we have a thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104759.0) for...not so great Kickstarters. Being involved in the process, if you feel like you want some anxiety or, ironically, some confidence building, check it out ;P)

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 12, 2013, 10:50:49 pm

Oh yeah, no I'm not holding it against him or anything, I can understand if someone doesn't like the @20 price point.
But I've done my budget and analysis, I know what kind of market I should expect for a niche game like this, and I just don't have the kind of PR strength to offer less and make up for it with a higher volume of fans. I know people who want a game like thisa will think it's reasonable, and those that need something for less than $20 - which seriously, is a pretty small sum in the first place when we're talking entertainment and luxuries in the first place - aren't really the kind of people who'd be interested enough to really get into a game like this, anyway. Also, kickstarter recommends a $20-$25 price range as the ideal target :P

I think we're not on the katchup because we hit our goal already, but I was hoping we'd at least get on the Winners section!

I know that the lack of gameplay videos turn a lot of people off, I'm not happy about it either... I know if I had it now I would be getting significantly more press and backers, but I'm still just one guy who has been working paycheck to paycheck. I was hoping to finish and offer the prototype DURING the kickstarter. Still, the time came and it was either do this now and take the leap, or put all of it on hold and work on reviving my finances before trying again. I took the leap, and with the backers (and bay12!) We've reached the other side!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 10:58:06 pm

I know we're awesome, but have you had any help from any other big forum?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 12, 2013, 11:06:58 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 10:58:06 pm

I know we're awesome, but have you had any help from any other big forum?

Dumpshock has kicked in at least a few backers.  That's actually where I heard about the project first.

You might also try Arcen Games (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php) forum.  Keith and X4000 are great fellows.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 12, 2013, 11:15:14 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 10:58:06 pm

I know we're awesome, but have you had any help from any other big forum?

Mainly /tg/ on 4Chan actually. I talked with them for months before while i worked on the game, and regularly have threads running on there.
Otherwise, yeah, you guys are right up there! Fewer backers than reddit but $200 more!

Actually only got 2 (direct) backers from dumpshock. There's that huge pool of unknown referrals so who knows what's in there.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 11:26:30 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on March 12, 2013, 11:06:58 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 10:58:06 pm

I know we're awesome, but have you had any help from any other big forum?

You might also try Arcen Games (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php) forum.  Keith and X4000 are great fellows.

I already knew that Arcen was awesome, its the only other forum I have open in firefox besides here most of the time.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 13, 2013, 12:02:41 am

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 12, 2013, 11:15:14 pm

Actually only got 2 (direct) backers from dumpshock. There's that huge pool of unknown referrals so who knows what's in there.

The referral tracking system isn't the greatest.
Pray tell, do you have a backer who was referred from [projecturl]?ref=instant_messenger ?
When I link people to KSers I stick that on the end to help aid the referral sorting.  In this case, I happen to know my friend backed almost instantly after I linked him, but I have no way to know that it actually worked.

Quote from: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 11:26:30 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on March 12, 2013, 11:06:58 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 12, 2013, 10:58:06 pm

I know we're awesome, but have you had any help from any other big forum?

You might also try Arcen Games (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php) forum.  Keith and X4000 are great fellows.

I already knew that Arcen was awesome, its the only other forum I have open in firefox besides here most of the time.

Hehe.  Not to brag, but Keith actually threw free money at Velociraptor! Cannibalism! (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/boardraptorgames/velociraptor-cannibalism/).  He turned my offer of Stuff down twice when I went to check that he didn't want a reward.  Great dude.  His support on V!C! being completely ignored, he's still a great dude.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 13, 2013, 04:55:16 am

Hmmm according to kicktraq were are on track for nearly $50,000 so who knows how much we will get we might even hit the second goal if we keep it up.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: hemmingjay on March 13, 2013, 07:40:48 am

I backed almost instantly at a modest level. I am watching closely and will quadruple my pledge if we are close/in danger of not reaching the next stretch. I believe in this project and the passion the dev has.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 13, 2013, 12:27:49 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on March 13, 2013, 12:02:41 am

Pray tell, do you have a backer who was referred from [projecturl]?ref=instant_messenger ?

I do not! Thank you for the referral all the same, but it seems that didnt work... it should have. Maybe the messenger client screws with the url when handling it. They can only do so much with the referral system given how many different ways people interact with the internet. most of /tg/ isn't referred because of the no-linking thing they do to try and stop spamming/viruses.

I'll try the forums, see if anyone is interested. I'll make sure to say you bay12 fellows sent me!

You can never really rely on the projections, especially as our KS has been wonkier in most with unusual spikes and dips... it was saying $60k for most of the first week, but it's dropped to $50k and it'll keep dropping. Shame, if it actually did go up to something like $60k I could probably find a programmer reliable enough to hire on and make multiplayer!

And thanks for backing hemmingjay! We'll definitely make War Room, next stretch goal I'm not sure...

Actually, I've been thinking of ways to sweeten the pot without leading to way more development time.... people seem to just keep seeing "$32000" and not "+$7000, - heavy fees and taxes". Though I have been talking with an accountant (really cool family friend. Offering free advice on the condition "When I do hire an accountant, I come to him first"!), and with his help I might not lose as much to taxes as I was fearing, which means more development time per buck, which means I *might* even be able to package both 2nd stretch goal options into the SAME $32k goal! It would mean a heavier dev cycle for that bloc of features, but I think it would be worth it because it'd be such a rich package that people would really try to get the word out to hit the goal.

I could always put that $60k: Multiplayer goal up there though I feel like it'd just be a tease :P And I'm still not sure what goals I'd have on the way, since they couldn't really cost that much (since the money building up to the 60k would be to hire a programmer, not for developing other things).
All of it is probably moot, since 1. that goal is outside of our (falling) trend line, and 2. I'm not even sure who I'd hire or what they would want in compensation...
...and I've had "issues" finding a reliable programmer to work with. While the compensation would certainly help lock someone down, I've tried working with 3 different people on Net Gain before on the promise of a huge share in the profits, but each one flaked on me when it got down to actually *working* on the damn thing, setting me back yet again.

Whew. :-[

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 13, 2013, 12:37:47 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 13, 2013, 12:27:49 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on March 13, 2013, 12:02:41 am

Pray tell, do you have a backer who was referred from [projecturl]?ref=instant_messenger ?

I do not! Thank you for the referral all the same, but it seems that didnt work... it should have. Maybe the messenger client screws with the url when handling it.

It shouldn't have, I do up the referral thingy in raw text and then paste it.  Bummer. :<

Quote

You can never really rely on the projections, especially as our KS has been wonkier in most with unusual spikes and dips... it was saying $60k for most of the first week, but it's dropped to $50k and it'll keep dropping. Shame, if it actually did go up to something like $60k I could probably find a programmer reliable enough to hire on and make multiplayer!

Yeah, it's not entirely reliable in the first few days.  Based on patterns I've seen, you're probably going to come in right around $27,000.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: hemmingjay on March 13, 2013, 12:43:37 pm

yes, you only pay taxes on what you earn - expenses related to your business. Many kickstarters do not pay taxes due to the fact that their costs can actually exceed what is raised. If your accountant is versed in VC capital he should be able to offset your taxes almost entirely, less anything that you pay yourself directly.

For example, if you raise $20k and you pay your artist for assets that you needed for the Kickstart campaign, as well as people for music, web design, and programming. Then add in costs for new software or hardware that you need for the project, fees for kickstarter and Amazon. Let's say you have $2500 left. That in theory is the taxable amount, usually at 26-35% depending on whether or not you have a company set up or are adding it to your personal income taxes.

What you want to do, once again ideally, is pay as many costs for the entire game production as you can out of the KS funds. That will leave you with a higher ratio of revenue/costs when you actually begin to sell the game. This will put you and your partners in a much better position to profit from this venture and further bankroll your next games.

Source: I work in business development and consult within the industry

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: askovdk on March 13, 2013, 01:05:02 pm

I'm now also backing this project.  :)
I really like the idea of player gathering information to 'design' their missions. - It is an element that seems absent in the quests of other games.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: BlindKitty on March 13, 2013, 02:15:34 pm

Well, I have some difficulties trying to put into words what I have to say, to not sound grumbly (although I usually grumble; it's so dwarfish). I'm a little bit concerned about what you say of stretch goals. That is, I would personally prefer giving you more wiggle room within those $32k, even if it means getting only one stretch goal, not two. Mostly because I believe that a healthy fanbase can lead to more (nomen omen) net gain, then upping the ante in Kickstarter. :) And since you wish to upgrade your game after 1.0 release, you can always put in the second one into the game later. And - last and probably least, too - bigger chance for new pants. :P
Anyway, as long as we get this game, you have my full cooperation. ;) Come to think of it - do you plan on making Net Gain translatable? EDIT: Just checked the FAQ on Kickstarter (finally...), so: I'm not so bad in translating things from English, so but only to my end-of-the-world language by now. ;) Anyways, I hope I will be of some use translating, when it comes to that. :)

Also, hemmingjay - you have the job of my dreams. Well, one of my dreams, but big one. ;) Actually, military career was one of the other... You stole my future life and use it yourself! :D No shame on you, though, you help people so much, and have so cool avatar, you're probably better of with it then me, and I have plenty of dreams to choose from. ;)

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: TheMastermind on March 13, 2013, 04:48:16 pm

I think you can post about the multiplayer at kickstarter. It might get people excited about it and get more backers.
Also i know that its much more effiecent building a game with multiplayer at mind at start than adding it later, plus i would LOVE to see multiplayer and sure others as well.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 13, 2013, 04:55:14 pm

Eh. I'd rather have a solid SP game than a compromised MP game.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 13, 2013, 04:56:30 pm

Quote from: nenjin on March 13, 2013, 04:55:14 pm

Eh. I'd rather have a solid SP game than a compromised MP game.

I could not agree more.

A huge part of the problem with modern games is that developers think that we all want a multiplayer component to games - when the reality is a lot of us don't.

I'd much rather see a quality single-player focused experience.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2013, 10:33:48 am

I'm surprised that, given the scope of the game, its funding has stayed really consistent since the announcement. Slow and steady wins the race!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 14, 2013, 04:37:57 pm

Quote from: nenjin on March 14, 2013, 10:33:48 am

I'm surprised that, given the scope of the game, its funding has stayed really consistent since the announcement. Slow and steady wins the race!

How so? If you mean the pledgers/day, it's definitely been dropping significantly since our press dried up... that trendline has fallen from 60k to 47k

And yes, I fully agree on a solid SP. The reason MP would be so expensive is I would bring on another programmer to tackle that while my focus remains on the single player. Either way, yes I am designing with the hopes of one day having the time or funds to offer multiplayer options.

I'll consider it with the stretch goals, I got some time left before we hit 25k... I do need to think of the health of the game in the long term as well, and remembering to add in cushioning for unexpected delays in developments of said new features.

I'm fairly aware of what I can and can't write off, but the majority of the kickstarter is going to (under)paying the programmer to work full time, and that's me, so I have to pay taxes on that. And if I somehow raise enough to hire another programmer or artist, while I don't have to pay taxes on that directly, I do have to compensate for the amount of taxes *they* have to pay (if someone wants at least $1000 in their pocket to do a job, then I have to pay them enough where they will have at least $1000 after taxes, as they might not do it for [$1000-taxes] much money). As much as I'd love to have a tax-write-off-able office, that's still a far more expensive option than working from home. But yeah, I'll be writing off the licensing fees and business fees and such... but taxes on "self-employed income" is pretty awful, especially in illinois.

Yeah, I hated how you always had to play someone *elses* mission! Why not plan your own!? It'll be interesting to see how it evolves with player feedback and design tweaks over the year.

Thanks for backing, everyone!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2013, 04:48:53 pm

Quote

How so? If you mean the pledgers/day, it's definitely been dropping significantly since our press dried up... that trendline has fallen from 60k to 47k

I'd say that still really consistent, especially considering you're not getting the "zomg, we made $2million, let's make more" PR bump.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 14, 2013, 04:49:07 pm

Don't forget to write-off the amount of space you use in your house as an office for tax purposes. My accountant had me figure out what % of my house my office took up while I had my own business out of my house.

It certainly helped, although I feel your pain on the costs of being self-employed.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: gimlet on March 14, 2013, 04:59:02 pm

And for sure if you've bought any even remotely-related computer stuff or games and comics "research materials" or are planning to, make sure to expense those.  Plus the proper proportion of internet fees, electricity, etc.   Every little bit helps...

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 14, 2013, 05:29:34 pm

I'm hoping I'll be able to rally more press from GDC and talking with people directly, getting them to post about it, but trying to get the new GUI foundations in on time before I leave may have been a mistake... I'm too far in to go back to the old build, but I'm not sure if I'll have the foundations working before I have to go!

Quote from: Mephansteras on March 14, 2013, 04:49:07 pm

Don't forget to write-off the amount of space you use in your house as an office for tax purposes.

I've heard mixed reports on this. Since I'm in a tiny chicago apartment, and have just the one desk/computer in my bedroom (literally, bedroom programming), it's a shared use space and thus I'm not supposed to count it as an office for tax purposes. I could partition off a part of the living room, get a new desk and computer to set up there, and try to figure out the write off for that, but I think the costs (not to mention the audit risks) will outweigh whatever small amount of my rent I can write off. And it's hard to tell what percentage of electricity or internet fees can be counted as "business only" since there is no clear partition of what is used for business and what is used for just daily life. All the actual business expenses are definitely on there, developer fees, license fees, business fees, KS/card processing fees, website hosting fees, etc etc.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 14, 2013, 05:32:13 pm

Ah. I had a spare room in my condo I was actually using as an Office, so it wasn't an issue for me. I can see how that might not be worth it for you, though.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: TheMastermind on March 19, 2013, 04:04:38 pm

I'm getting a bit worried, looks like the funding is slowing to a halt, and i really want to see the war room stretch goal being achived :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 19, 2013, 04:07:11 pm

dont worry we have donkeys till its over, we will reach it. also spark has some gameplay in the works which should hopefully bring in more peoples

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 19, 2013, 04:12:03 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 19, 2013, 04:07:11 pm

dont worry we have donkeys till its over we will rach it. also spark has some gameplay in the works which should hopefully bring in more peoples

Oh yeah, War Room is definitely happening.  Only another 2k needed for that.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 19, 2013, 06:04:19 pm

Spark how is everything going ? What's the situation? And can we have a sneak peak at he game pwease ?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 19, 2013, 06:06:14 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 19, 2013, 04:07:11 pm

dont worry we have donkeys till its over we will rach it. also spark has some gameplay in the works which should hopefully bring in more peoples

While I think I get what you're saying overall here...that first sentence makes absolutely no sense.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 19, 2013, 06:09:56 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on March 19, 2013, 06:06:14 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 19, 2013, 04:07:11 pm

dont worry we have donkeys till its over, we will reach it. also spark has some gameplay in the works which should hopefully bring in more peoples

While I think I get what you're saying overall here...that first sentence makes absolutely no sense.

I put in a comma and corrected the mistake stupid phone :P does that make it a better sentence?

Edit: by donkeys I mean a long time, you know like when someone says that's the badger or you must be having a giraffe

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 19, 2013, 06:16:07 pm

That helped. Never heard of the phrases you're using, but at least I know what you mean now.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 19, 2013, 06:19:55 pm

Must be a British thing :P

The whole of the slang is donkeys years. Not even "that's the badger" I thought that was quite a common saying.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 19, 2013, 09:47:33 pm

I have heard none of these animal slang terms you all are bandying about!
As for the game, I don't thik I'm going to have the gui hooked back up and playable in the next two days, which is all the time i got left before the flight :-/
I was really counting on that to convince some people at GDC to give me another boost, but I got distracted trying to get some press to pull me out of the current lull.

Bah...

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Draco18s on March 19, 2013, 10:48:17 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 19, 2013, 06:19:55 pm

Must be a British thing :P

Quit being so other side of the pond. :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 20, 2013, 03:13:01 am

Bah :P

Also spark remember kick start is not your only source of funding! Think of this this way, no matter what right now you have smashed through your target with no gameplay, once you have some gameplay out there even once the kick start has finished people will still be interested in buying your game so then you let them preorder in the standard way.

You can also do another kickstarter with the aim of bringing in more features and you would have a lot more to show for the game then. This is just early stage, once you have more to show people will be more interested. You concept has people wanting the game but they don't want to be disappointed.

Also I suggest once you do have a gameplay video up also make a Indy gogo start and say that you want to reach the stretch goals and bring more to the game.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 06:05:40 am

In support of Script, from a fellow Brit...

I'm glad I threw a few squid into this, whilst I'd have loved to have thrown a monkey at it had I one, all I could afford was a pony plus three Lady Godivas. At least I managed to give a bit of my Buggs Bunny anyway!

Looking forward to the release, hoping it doesn't quite take donkeys as I'm really excited to have a butcher's at this!

So, does the above mean all of us Brits are a bit chicken oriental? I'll let you be the inky smudge!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 20, 2013, 06:28:30 am

best sentence i have ever read xD

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 08:36:40 am

See, this is why we don't use metric. People who use metric start talking in animal phrases for no apparent reason :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Neyvn on March 20, 2013, 08:55:10 am

Quote from: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 06:05:40 am

In support of Script, from a fellow Brit...

I'm glad I threw a few squid into this, whilst I'd have loved to have thrown a monkey at it had I one, all I could afford was a pony plus three Lady Godivas. At least I managed to give a bit of my Buggs Bunny anyway!

Looking forward to the release, hoping it doesn't quite take donkeys as I'm really excited to have a butcher's at this!

So, does the above mean all of us Brits are a bit chicken oriental? I'll let you be the inky smudge!

I am Australian, And I understood a good bit of this...

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 09:08:53 am

 8)

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 20, 2013, 12:46:36 pm

Yeah I'll be putting up some sort of online store once the prototype goes live, with the added advantage of not losing a cut to kickstarter (not to say they havent earned what they got! A largew portion of donations came through people just browsing their video games section). At this point I've guaranteed a year of funding so everything on top is the canary's hippo, but I just dont want to run into the gator's maw by getting a bit too orangutan.

Giraffe.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 12:55:39 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 20, 2013, 12:46:36 pm

Yeah I'll be putting up some sort of online store once the prototype goes live, with the added advantage of not losing a cut to kickstarter (not to say they havent earned what they got! A largew portion of donations came through people just browsing their video games section). At this point I've guaranteed a year of funding so everything on top is the canary's hippo, but I just dont want to run into the gator's maw by getting a bit too orangutan.

Giraffe.

I dare you to create a character within Net Gain that talks like this. That would be a right little Bay12 homage! ;D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 20, 2013, 12:56:34 pm

That would be hilarious!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 12:57:51 pm

Nah, they'd need to speak that in a dwarven accent to be bay12 homage. ;D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: BlindKitty on March 20, 2013, 01:03:26 pm

I was watching Burn Notice yesterday. And I come to think: how much more effective I could be if I were to be where Michael Westen is. :D Just give me the Net Gain, and I will show you! :D Also: good source of inspiration for content, sparkbolt, if you haven't seen it yet.

Also, I have to polish my English somewhat, as I lose way too much meaning when someone goes on zoo-talking rampage. :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 01:03:39 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 12:57:51 pm

Nah, they'd need to speak that in a dwarven accent to be bay12 homage. ;D

I prefer the animal/Cockney slang. 8)

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 01:05:33 pm

Quote from: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 01:03:39 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 12:57:51 pm

Nah, they'd need to speak that in a dwarven accent to be bay12 homage. ;D

I prefer the animal/Cockney slang. 8)

Animal slang in a dwarven accent, if you idn't understand what I said.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 01:54:23 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 01:05:33 pm

Quote from: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 01:03:39 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 12:57:51 pm

Nah, they'd need to speak that in a dwarven accent to be bay12 homage. ;D

I prefer the animal/Cockney slang. 8)

Animal slang in a dwarven accent, if you idn't understand what I said.

I wouldn't know what a Dwarven accent is...any examples you fancy giving? :-[

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 01:56:46 pm

Something vaguely scottish is the stereotype, but other than that i don't.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Parsely on March 20, 2013, 02:00:22 pm

PTW

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 02:01:35 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on March 20, 2013, 01:56:46 pm

Something vaguely scottish is the stereotype, but other than that i don't.

Ah, so a Scottish/Cockney hybrid with animal/Cockney rhyming slang. Sounds good! ;D 8)

Loving the three tracks on the Kickstarter page, by the way. Really make me feel like this is going to be the thinking man's Syndicate.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 20, 2013, 02:05:17 pm

yeah i really want this game so badly, i wish i had money i would put $500 on it in a heart beat.

Spark whats the GUI looking like and please could bay12 your faithful minions have a sneaky peak at it ?

i do like the small updates as well the music is really good! but dont forget to do bigger updates. also as a request for the next update could we have more indepth information on our operatives please

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 02:06:40 pm

If I had the money, I'd have whacked the highest possible backer amount on it - to be honest, there are one or two Kickstarters that I'd do that for at the moment...maybe I'll win the lottery one day...

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 20, 2013, 02:10:44 pm

Quote from: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 02:06:40 pm

If I had the money, I'd have whacked the highest possible backer amount on it - to be honest, there are one or two Kickstarters that I'd do that for at the moment...maybe I'll win the lottery one day...

better chance with a scratch card mate haha :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 20, 2013, 02:13:23 pm

There's more chance of a Leprechaun wearing a Borat mankini riding to my door on the back of a green unicorn wielding a phaser from Star Trek The Next Generation, and handing me a bazillion dollars.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: sparkbolt on March 20, 2013, 11:10:53 pm

Urist the Operator. References a confusing menagerie of animals in everyday conversation. Maybe if we get #TheFeed stretch goal, we can make that a reality!

I'm glad you like the music, Richie is a really cool guy to work with!

the GUI looks a lot like the ones in the video, though right now it's mainly labels and buttons, as I add more fancy bits as the prototype evolves.

I'm not quite sure what else to say about the operatives, the existing update is pretty comprehensive! I'm about to go to GDC, so hopefully we can have some fun live updates down there.

I've watched Burn Notice since day one! I love the show and drawl tons of inspiration from it! You'll find if it's a show about espionage, I've probably pored over it for every delicious detail. But do keep recommending them! It's easy to miss out on something when there's so much to draw from.

honestly I'm hoping to push all of this on to steam, so I can focus on development, not deployment.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: gimlet on March 22, 2013, 01:18:04 pm

Burn Notice is great, but my fav series of all time is still The Sandbaggers from bbc - one of the few series where the focus is more the managers directing operations and bureaucratic infighting instead of some flashy mug doing nothing but fistfights and car chases.  Well and the old Danger Man and Avengers, but those more for the great actors and "coolness" than any deep brilliant story.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandbaggers (be REALLY careful reading that if you ever intend to see it, anything much after the "plot" paragraphs is laced with spoilers)

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: Kaje on March 22, 2013, 01:52:23 pm

Don't forget the Sky comedy series 'Spy' (very funny!).

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - Funded!
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2013, 03:13:39 pm

Achievement Unlocked: Makin' War from the Penthouse.

Still got a week left, maybe we can squeeze another couple grand in there.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Kaje on March 23, 2013, 03:21:42 pm

I just can't tell you how much I want to play this game right now.  :'(

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2013, 03:32:03 pm

This game is going to be so amazing with all the war room features ! Hopefully we can get enough to fit in the feed goal as well and bring more life to our ops

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: hemmingjay on March 23, 2013, 03:50:15 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2013, 03:32:03 pm

This game is going to be so amazing with all the war room features ! Hopefully we can get enough to fit in the feed goal as well and bring more life to our ops

What is the stretch goal for the feed?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2013, 03:55:08 pm

Quote from: hemmingjay on March 23, 2013, 03:50:15 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2013, 03:32:03 pm

This game is going to be so amazing with all the war room features ! Hopefully we can get enough to fit in the feed goal as well and bring more life to our ops

What is the stretch goal for the feed?

$32,000

#TheFeed is all about giving the operatives more character and life! At the core, it's about adding a Feed to the operatives where they'll post little updates about the things they see or do, or thoughts on recent events, or the world at large. Beyond that, it's about giving them a voice everywhere: seeing them have quick exchanges of dialogue during a mission, having them occasionally talk to you directly, making them more alive and responsive and... well, chatty.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Kaje on March 23, 2013, 04:01:16 pm

I'm skeptical it will make that goal, another £7k in 7 days is a huge ask. The game just isn't getting the publicity it deserves.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2013, 04:02:44 pm

Along that line of thinking....

Shadowrun Returns was the first Kickstarter I backed, and one thing that ultimately motivated me to back this image. (http://i.imgur.com/Evj8D.jpg)

Now, it's a bit too late for that to have a real impact on your funding. That said, with how feature and mechanics rich Net Gain is shaping up to be, what I feel like it really lacks at this point is a good sense of your development road map.
 
I think it'd be worth it as a gesture to your backers if you made a graphic that roughly lays out the features between the prototype, 1.0 and beyond. Reducing things like operative loyalty links, ect... into bullet points you can put in each group. I can kinda already see it in my head. And if you manage to get it done soon enough, really detailing the features in an easy, visual fashion might snare you a few more backers.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Kaje on March 23, 2013, 04:05:29 pm

Not a terrible shout, it wouldn't hurt to go on a bit of a PR 'begging' drive at the big online mags.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Draco18s on March 23, 2013, 04:10:51 pm

The projection is between 27k and 30k, which is narrowing in at right about where I said it'd finish.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 23, 2013, 04:53:32 pm

Hmm now with the war room we can advance within the company as a broker I wonder if we can get other brokers as operatives ? That would be interesting.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2013, 05:45:58 pm

'cause I felt motivated, I mocked up what I think a nice roadmap snapshot might look like:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/6d0mc2t.png)

And I think I oops'd the 1.0 release date. Wishful thinking I guess. :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Draco18s on March 23, 2013, 06:07:26 pm

I highly advise that people go vote for the next stretch goal (even though I don't think it'll happen).

Personally I want The Feed because it makes the game deeper, whereas I would get no benefit from Mobile Ops (my phone is 5 years old).

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2013, 06:29:48 pm

I had to vote for mobile ops, ultimately. It offers more active things for the player to do, and while I loves me some aesthetic, non-interactive flourishes, ultimately I thought about which has the potential to draw in more backers.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: sparkbolt on March 24, 2013, 03:17:08 pm

Hey all! Dont know why it wasn't updating me about thread activity...
Remember, Mobile Ops is actually a lot of core game stuff, and the actual mobile phone element is a smaller part of that. The poll has in depth writeups on the goals!  (http://forum.levelzerogames.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15)

Also, whatever I do end up getting for the stretch goal, even if the goal isn't hit, can still be applied towards getting at least some of the elements from that goal in the game!

Nenjin: Awesome! I suppose I should have made a graph like that, it would have helped... but I al quite literally out of free time, now. right after I finish this post I gotta scout a location for our Net Gain GDC meetup (https://www.facebook.com/events/504431832927019/), then more emails/press begging (RPS is going to write another article for us tomorrow!), and then the rest of the week is constant bootcamps, tutorials, lectures, events, parties, and networking... hopefully with some sleep in there as well. If I ever do something like this again, I think I'd want to LAUNCH with GDC, not end with it. (though I didn't really have much leeway in the timing, this time around)

Scriptwolf: the other brokers are brokers! You have other guys working in the firm with you for the company, and vying for the same promotions! Whenyou advance above them, you get some pseudo-control over them (remember, brokers - like the players - are largely autonomous) by issuing directives like "I want to take that corporation down" or "we could use more assets for our robotics industry companies")

Kaje: RPS is getting us again, Kotaku remains coldly silent.

Spy and Sandbaggers added to my list of shows to watch on one monitor while I code on the other :D

Feature lists are a bit tricky and something I'm wary of putting up. I've got core design docs, but honestly just in the time that I've been running this Kickstarter I've iterated, added, or removed various features based on what people have been saying. I'd hate to list an ancillary feature that someone absolutely loves only to have to cut it to make room for something else. The chart is keen though, I'll see if I can make one if I can find some free time and if this tiny crappy netbook behaves itself long enough.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 24, 2013, 03:24:27 pm

Spark is there any chance you could lower the stretch goal for a cut down version of mobile ops ? Without the mobile phone app part, I feel it's quite a important part of your operatives to give them more things to do and would leave a large gap in the game if left out.

Also I left a rather large amount of questions on the kickstarter hehe.

Also I upped my pledge to $50 spark could I make both a specialist and a company and have the specialist in the company ?

Also I wonder how many bay12 style company's/operatives there will be.

I know my company is being called Forges of Armok

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: sparkbolt on March 24, 2013, 03:31:54 pm

The heart of the game is the broker making missions and planning these networks of operations. The interaction with the operatives - while I find it to be a huge new feature and definitely a rich thing to add - is still an extension of that core game.

The mobile phone app thing is actually what keeps Mobile Ops from having a *higher* goal. Making the phone app is incredibly simple with unity, given that the gui and mechanics for it are built out of the core game. The new market and players that the mobile app is going to bring in is subsidizing the development of Mobile Ops. Basically, I'm putting up my own money to cover the difference in development time over the stretch goal, because I'm confident the free app will bring in far more paying customers than the extra time will cost.

Hahaha, and so you did! I'll answer the barrage on the KS when I get a chance this evening, or earlier if I'm stuck waiting and my phone still has battery!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 24, 2013, 03:38:00 pm

Thanks spark :) also sorry about repeating some things :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: hemmingjay on March 24, 2013, 03:46:42 pm

I quadrupled my contribution as promised and might have to bump it up slightly again if we come too close. I would project the total to be right around $32650 when finished but I hope I am underestimating.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 24, 2013, 03:49:05 pm

Is there anything else we can do to give this more coverage? 

Is it on /v/ yet ?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Draco18s on March 24, 2013, 04:00:15 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on March 24, 2013, 03:49:05 pm

Has net gain been posted on /v/ yet ?

If it hasn't, I advise against the project creators from posting it themselves.  From what I hear, reddit has a thing against people posting about their OWN creations.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: sparkbolt on March 24, 2013, 04:27:02 pm

>>Calling /v/ "Reddit"
Sure that's a faster way to earn their ire ;)
I post frequently on /tg/ and actually talked with them over the last few months while I developed the project. I don't post on /v/ or /vg/ as - like you say - they hate when people promote their own stuff. I've seen one or two mentions but I'm sure they could do with more.

All I can think of is to keep emailing (and especially twittering!) blogs and writers getting them to put some coverage up about the game. hopefully I'll convince some devs here to talk about us on thier fb/twitter/blog.

HemmingJay: Extremely appreciated! Every bit of support helps!

ScriptWolf: no worries! I like answering people's questions! And soon I'll be able to show you instead of just saying it.

Also, nenjin, I wnet ahead and threw this together :)
(http://i.imgur.com/Ou5HO2R.png)

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 24, 2013, 04:31:06 pm

Be able to show me ? Now you have my attention !

Also that graph makes me really wish this game had more funding, so much more content for $45,000 :(

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 24, 2013, 05:04:22 pm

Sexy.

Once the KS is finished though, I'd still want a bullet-pointed list of things. Normally I'm ok with the initial broad overview of features, but in Net Gain's case all the goodness isn't something you can easily point to. Differences between the prototype and 1.0 would be good to have on hand, especially for the backers who may not check up on the game til they can d/l it.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Draco18s on March 24, 2013, 05:18:05 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 24, 2013, 04:27:02 pm

>>Calling /v/ "Reddit"
Sure that's a faster way to earn their ire ;)

Blerg.  I don't use either one.  Sue me. :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Neonivek on March 24, 2013, 09:10:05 pm

I am confused as to how the next stretch goal works (ignoring that there is little chance it will hit that stretchy goal)

I understand the aspect that it will be a portable function for agents. That much is clear.

But can you import them? is this a game that is on all the time? You said that these features will be in the base game but does that mean that you are adding features to the base game or exporting features to a free game?

Confused am I...

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Aklyon on March 24, 2013, 10:54:25 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on March 24, 2013, 05:18:05 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 24, 2013, 04:27:02 pm

>>Calling /v/ "Reddit"
Sure that's a faster way to earn their ire ;)

Blerg.  I don't use either one.  Sue me. :P

Theres also /vg/, which is like /v/ but with less threads and more pastebin-augmented megathreads full of stuff/crap/anons.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: sparkbolt on March 24, 2013, 11:14:57 pm

Yeah, my concern over the list may be a bit too cautionary. Development will be similar in style to DF, but I'm worried a lot of people arent familiar with that style so I'll have to make sure people know exactly WHAT such a list means, that it's not a list of confirmed features, that it will grow and change as time goes, some things might get changed or removed, etc.

Oh, and I saw your post on Tripwire. Thanks for the effort, though the forum looks kinda dead! :)

scriptwolf: Well, still not for awhile! I will try to get at least rudimentary gameplay videos up as soon as the basic gameplay "loop" is done, which'll be before june.

Neon: Mobile Ops is at the heart of it, about making your operatives in the core game more autonomous. Read the description here (http://forum.levelzerogames.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15)! the mobile phone portion is a combination of 1. canon generators and 2. a "tamagotchi" style game made out of the broker/operative interactions in the core game.

Quote

But can you import them?

You can import them to your core game, yes.

Quote

Is this a game that is on all the time?

Nope. it runs while you run it, and you can speed up time in the game.

Quote

You said that these features will be in the base game but does that mean that you are adding features to the base game or exporting features to a free game?

Both, basically. The stretch goal both adds these features to the core game and ports them to a phone game.

Any more questions? I'll be glad to clarify!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Neonivek on March 24, 2013, 11:39:28 pm

More questions? hmmm

Can you actually run the Mobile ops solo on your computer using the more advanced game outside of the main game mod? My assumption is no.

Ohh here is one. Since you can import agents back and forth. Can your agents die, get injures, or labotomised during Mobile ops?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: sparkbolt on March 24, 2013, 11:48:44 pm

Well ALL the elements of the mobile game are IN the core game, and hooked into all the other goodies like events and the economy and missions, etc. The mobile version is basically the operative/broker interaction stuff and the operative autonomy stuff, but that's it. technically I *could* make it availableon PC as a standalone, and I might as a sort-of-demo, but I dont think it'll have much appeal in that format.

well it'll probably start as only one-way importing to the core game of the base creation, but once it's got some legs you'll be able to copy your creations from core <-> mobile. But they are just copies in separate worlds.
It'd be cool to link the worlds, but I don't think that'll be entirely feasible since the mobile game won't include the economy or missions that change the world.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Neonivek on March 24, 2013, 11:51:53 pm

Well the mobile ops obviously takes place in an entirely different city/country/world so the mobile obviously wouldn't include the economy or important missions.

Can missions be ones to send your opperatives to fancy meals to make them happy? Actually can "undercover" missions just to shmooze or date the opponent?

Wait maybe that is too far to be asking >_<

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: sparkbolt on March 25, 2013, 12:19:14 am

Yes! Your interactions with the operatives in Mobile Ops are expanded into more loyalty-effect options such as company retreats or etc, and the operatives will do many things on their own such as see any people they have a loyalty to... and those people might be enemies.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Neonivek on March 25, 2013, 12:38:39 am

Quote from: sparkbolt on March 25, 2013, 12:19:14 am

Yes! Your interactions with the operatives in Mobile Ops are expanded into more loyalty-effect options such as company retreats or etc, and the operatives will do many things on their own such as see any people they have a loyalty to... and those people might be enemies.

Why do I feel like this section of the game should sometimes be gloriously mundane. Like you get a call that they are out of finger sandwiches and you can decide to order sushi instead, or suddenly everyone decides that Paintball is a great ice breaker.

Like everything is big and epic, but corperate retreats are still corperate retreats.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: sparkbolt on March 25, 2013, 01:00:54 am

Heheh, yes the mundane is actually an important narrative element, to get that feel of "office life"... but given the other *critical* events, it's important to not clog up that channel. Side Jobs will be a good way to get into more of the small details of an operative's life, and I might end up making "event chains" for the corporate retreat thing, where you get a set of 3-5 events that you decide in a row, grouping all the mundane things into one content-worthy clump!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 25, 2013, 08:59:03 am

Quote

Oh, and I saw your post on Tripwire. Thanks for the effort, though the forum looks kinda dead! :)

Yeah, I kinda knew it wouldn't get much play there (that forum is mostly devoted to highly accurate WWII rivet counting simulations anyways), but it was honestly more for the handful of people on that board that might like it, than the project itself. Hope it got you a few dollars.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Kaje on March 26, 2013, 08:12:11 am

Don't forget to come and get involved on the forums - not a huge amount of activity at the moment, so come and get chatting about all things Net Gain, Cyberpunk and Corporate Espionage!

http://forum.levelzerogames.com/index.php

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Kaje on March 27, 2013, 05:37:49 pm

There's now a Steam Greenlight up for voting:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=133833471

 :D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 28, 2013, 02:10:15 pm

RPS did their last article.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/03/28/trawling-the-money-sea-net-gains-final-hours/#more-147708

I'd say having two stand alone articles totally makes up for not being on the Kickstarter roundup. Hopefully Net Gain gets the 48 hour bump.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Kaje on March 28, 2013, 03:45:10 pm

I think it may just be a little too late now, but I'm always optimistic! :D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Draco18s on March 28, 2013, 11:21:25 pm

Quote from: Kaje on March 28, 2013, 03:45:10 pm

I think it may just be a little too late now, but I'm always optimistic! :D

There was a nice boost from the article, Kicktraq indicates a "trending towards 32,065" but things always come a little shy of that (the estimation of the trending curve would be more accurate of a prediction).

Still, it's possible the game will hit that mark in the next 48 hours.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: BlindKitty on March 29, 2013, 08:17:25 am

Well, in about 20 hours I'm going to my parent's house for Easter, but if I see tomorrow morning that we are in danger of falling short of 32k, I will bump up my pledge, and new pants be damned. :P

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 29, 2013, 09:09:23 am

Holy shit, 24 hours to go and only $1,800 left to go for Mobile Ops! I guess between GDC, RPS and the magical twilight hours of Kickstarter, something has been going right!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Kaje on March 29, 2013, 10:15:47 am

It's had a superb spurt, not long to go! Come on peeps, lets tip it over the line! :D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 29, 2013, 11:43:05 am

So close...

Spark if we finish at like 31,500+ will we still get the next stretch goal please ?

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: hemmingjay on March 29, 2013, 12:24:42 pm

Quote from: hemmingjay on March 24, 2013, 03:46:42 pm

I quadrupled my contribution as promised and might have to bump it up slightly again if we come too close. I would project the total to be right around $32650 when finished but I hope I am underestimating.

I still think this will be the correct final number.

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 29, 2013, 01:47:33 pm

We are deff going to get the second goal :D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: Kaje on March 29, 2013, 05:04:23 pm

Superb! :D

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: hemmingjay on March 29, 2013, 09:02:22 pm

Congrats to Net Gain and all of it's highly intelligent backers!

Title: Re: Net Gain - Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter - War Room Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 30, 2013, 12:55:26 am

*struts*

Grats Sparkbolt. That ought to keep the lights on for a while ;)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Futuristic Corporate Espionage Sim on Kickstarter. Mobile Ops Unlocked
Post by: nenjin on March 30, 2013, 12:45:40 pm

Man you must have really turned some heads and made some good connections at GDC. The funding bump has surpassed pretty much everyone's expectations.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on March 31, 2013, 05:45:03 pm

Updated the OP post-Kickstarter. If anyone missed it (somehow) and is interested in backing, there'll be information on how to back via Paypal, posted tomorrow.

Phase 1 of getting backers is complete. Now begins Phase 2...getting buyers. *rubs hands together*

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2013, 05:47:07 pm

I tried Paypal and it didn't work last time... I am rather sad about that.

I wonder if it will work this time.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Aklyon on March 31, 2013, 08:33:19 pm

Paypal has worked fine for me before. What hasn't worked so far is having money for these things at the right time. ::)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on April 01, 2013, 06:05:00 am

Was hoping for a day or so when I got back, but PayPal!
Thoughts? http://level-zero-games-store.myshopify.com/collections/all

Also, yes, perfect damn storm for the upswing! RPS + Coming out of the lull + GDC = huge spike = even higher ratings on KS and KickTraq and publicity. IU expected a bump, not expecting 9.5k!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Knave on April 01, 2013, 04:05:40 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on April 01, 2013, 06:05:00 am

Was hoping for a day or so when I got back, but PayPal!
Thoughts? http://level-zero-games-store.myshopify.com/collections/all

Also, yes, perfect damn storm for the upswing! RPS + Coming out of the lull + GDC = huge spike = even higher ratings on KS and KickTraq and publicity. IU expected a bump, not expecting 9.5k!

Link says the store isn't ready? Looking forward to when paypal is ready!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on April 01, 2013, 04:47:00 pm

So the store turned out to be an awful waste of time. It's super awkward and ended up being easier for everybody to ust make a nunch of donate buttons!
What do you guys this of this? (http://www.levelzerogames.com/blog/paypal-bonus-round/)
Was going to link it to the KS shortly, but hoping that the DNS for store.levelzerogames.com propagates before I put it up so I can just link that.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Knave on April 01, 2013, 05:03:12 pm

Looks spartan, but definitely clear. Well some of the rewards are confusing (company vs. corporation) but a quick visit to the KS page can clear everything up.

$30 dollars donated! GL with development.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on April 03, 2013, 12:14:25 pm

hey spark so whats next on the agenda ? and how long will the playpal stuff be up for ? i would really like to increase my pledge for a final $100 but will have to do it at the end of the month :P

also is game play in the works ? so we can get a look at it soon ?

With all the user created stuff will we be given the means to create that rather soon ? it would make sense to incorporate all the user created stuff ( which only relies on the user creating it with no further input like the VIP or persona ) and let us do the brunt work of creating operatives and stuff for prototype ?

Really cant wait for this game its the only thing i want to play right now.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on April 03, 2013, 02:58:41 pm

new Kickstarter update.
Paypal is only up for a week! gameplay has always been in the works(?), I'm still not sure when the full playable will be ready to show. I'm still dealing with post-gdc business before I can go back to developing. User created stuff is AFTER the prototype. It's important to give people an idea for tone and setting before submitting content, since content needs to fit said setting. As for the simpler stuff, the procedural generators fill that up for now.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on April 03, 2013, 03:04:24 pm

I enjoyed that Kickstarter update. I'm sure there's a lot of chaff you have to get through, but it's good seeing others engage you about your game.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on April 03, 2013, 03:19:14 pm

Sorry I meant gameplay as in something we can see were you still planing on releasing a video anytime soon ?

Hmm would I still be able to up my pledge one final time when I can then spark if could just do a one off thing ?

That seems cool, I can see where it makes sense on knowing the setting before letting users create stuff :P

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on April 03, 2013, 11:04:51 pm

Gameplay video, I can't promise any sooner than the end of the month, but hopefully soonert than that. Ideally I'd like to get the prebuilt city in for that as well but its a surprising amount of work for such a trivial "show" effect.

We can work out a one-time thing ;) Send me a message on KS so i can keep track of it and let me know when you want to up.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on April 04, 2013, 06:39:40 am

People's ignorance to read or do proper research is really annoying and just some people...

These are  quotes from the greenlight

Hunter_Drone 6 hours ago
good cutscenes aren't enough to save a bad game. and if the video and screenshots are anything to go by, this is a bad game.


Mogg 19 hours ago
You used real actors for your game? Hope they are good. Also I am a little bummed the game doesnt play as I see those actors do their thing. So, no thankyou.


I shake my head in disgust.

Spark when you manage to get some real game screen shots up it might be worth putting them in. Also maybe alter the video seeing as though people can't read or listen properly enough to know that parts of the video are just flashy trailer stuff.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Kaje on April 04, 2013, 02:25:56 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on April 04, 2013, 06:39:40 am

People's ignorance to read or do proper research is really annoying and just some people...

These are  quotes from the greenlight

Hunter_Drone 6 hours ago
good cutscenes aren't enough to save a bad game. and if the video and screenshots are anything to go by, this is a bad game.


Mogg 19 hours ago
You used real actors for your game? Hope they are good. Also I am a little bummed the game doesnt play as I see those actors do their thing. So, no thankyou.


I shake my head in disgust.

Spark when you manage to get some real game screen shots up it might be worth putting them in. Also maybe alter the video seeing as though people can't read or listen properly enough to know that parts of the video are just flashy trailer stuff.

There are a few more like that, too. It's a sad reflection on the world when people can't work out what's just some padding for an announcement video and what's gameplay.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on April 04, 2013, 03:53:06 pm

Quote from: Kaje on April 04, 2013, 02:25:56 pm

There are a few more like that, too. It's a sad reflection on the world when people can't work out what's just some padding for an announcement video and what's gameplay.

Saw some similar comments on a character reference sheet, where the character's tail was cut off (baring muscle and bone) to not obscure things and someone thought it was a gaping orifice. :\
(link, if anyone cares (http://www.reddit.com/r/furry/comments/1bjrc6/my_new_character_sheet_from_james_melinae/))

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: jhxmt on April 04, 2013, 04:09:32 pm

Backed (via Paypal) - because who doesn't want to be a manipulative, cold-hearted bastard sending agents to their highly-likely-but-not-entirely-inevitable-doom?  :P

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Kaje on April 04, 2013, 05:25:43 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on April 04, 2013, 03:53:06 pm

Quote from: Kaje on April 04, 2013, 02:25:56 pm

There are a few more like that, too. It's a sad reflection on the world when people can't work out what's just some padding for an announcement video and what's gameplay.

Saw some similar comments on a character reference sheet, where the character's tail was cut off (baring muscle and bone) to not obscure things and someone thought it was a gaping orifice. :\
(link, if anyone cares (http://www.reddit.com/r/furry/comments/1bjrc6/my_new_character_sheet_from_james_melinae/))

I can, sort of, see how they could figure that was an anus to be fair! I did have a small childish giggle when I first saw it, though it's awesome work!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on April 04, 2013, 10:32:13 pm

Quote from: Kaje on April 04, 2013, 05:25:43 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on April 04, 2013, 03:53:06 pm

Quote from: Kaje on April 04, 2013, 02:25:56 pm

There are a few more like that, too. It's a sad reflection on the world when people can't work out what's just some padding for an announcement video and what's gameplay.

Saw some similar comments on a character reference sheet, where the character's tail was cut off (baring muscle and bone) to not obscure things and someone thought it was a gaping orifice. :\
(link, if anyone cares (http://www.reddit.com/r/furry/comments/1bjrc6/my_new_character_sheet_from_james_melinae/))

I can, sort of, see how they could figure that was an anus to be fair! I did have a small childish giggle when I first saw it, though it's awesome work!

I mean, I can too, but it's pretty obvious what it's supposed to be.
And yeah, Melinae Ratel is a pretty good artist.  Maybe not the best one of the people I watch, but certainly up there.  He draws a lot of cute stuff, managing to do a lot with very little (http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10099987/).

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on April 05, 2013, 06:04:07 am

*superman shunts topic back onto the rails*

Spark out of interest will assets do more than just +1 rifle skill and help with doing missions ? It would be cool if when you got access to certain assets the would unlock more stuff or even advance technology as a whole in the game.

Example : DeepCell - a computer virus asset - once gained you have the power to completely crash the stock market for everything - you will need to use several operatives break into the main servers and unleash this virus to bring everyone back on the same playing field - this asset when used will push all current assets into negative values, all corporations will lose all of their power which was built up and most of their cash causing every corporation to have to start again.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Kaje on April 05, 2013, 07:36:42 am

Quote from: ScriptWolf on April 05, 2013, 06:04:07 am

*superman shunts topic back onto the rails*

Spark out of interest will assets do more than just +1 rifle skill and help with doing missions ? It would be cool if when you got access to certain assets the would unlock more stuff or even advance technology as a whole in the game.

Example : DeepCell - a computer virus asset - once gained you have the power to completely crash the stock market for everything - you will need to use several operatives break into the main servers and unleash this virus to bring everyone back on the same playing field - this asset when used will push all current assets into negative values, all corporations will lose all of their power which was built up and most of their cash causing every corporation to have to start again.

It's a great question, and worthy of double posting over on the official Net Gain forums!

http://forum.levelzerogames.com/index.php

I'd love to see the activity over there increase!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on April 05, 2013, 04:53:36 pm

As Kaje says, there's actually a dedicated (and silent!) Q/A thread over on the forums: http://forum.levelzerogames.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14

as for that, assets are very transient (always jumping to the Next Big Thing), so any perks they do have tend to be limited to small economic tweaks.
The War Room, however, can definitely expand in such a fashion! Though I think your particular example might be incredibly game breaking! Thoughh perhaps a virus that causes certain markets to crash would be viable!

And yeah, the graphics hate on steam is starting to go into the annoying range, especially with comments like "good cutscenes aren't enough to save a bad game. and if the video and screenshots are anything to go by, this is a bad game." The "logic" of that is just... traumatic. I can feel my insanity points going up.

I do plan on getting gameplay video up as soon as possible, but it will still be ugly and wont stop the haters who are convinced bad graphics = bad game.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on April 05, 2013, 06:29:02 pm

Game breaking is my specialty.

And sounds good so assets are just money gainers then and don't really have much else going for them ? - I thought stuff you could equip your operatives with e.g. A sniper rifle counted as assets as well ? Would these not be more long term things ? Because you could have both longer lasting assets e.g. Computer virus, guns ect... And short term ones as well.

Also screw all the graphics haters they are into shallow pool games like cod and trying to troll. If they are to idiotic to not even be able to tell what a trailer is they are not the audience your trying to target.

Also the video in my opinion is not for the people who are saying no it's for the people who are currently sitting in the fence unsure about investing because they are not sure on what it's going to be like just yet.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: bobusdoleus on May 02, 2013, 08:13:59 pm

It's frustratingly difficult to figure out the genre of this game.

Specifically, I want to know if it's a sandboxy, play-it-forever type of game, or if it's a strategy game where you start at the same level as some competitors and it's a race to the finish line, whatever that may be.

I prefer sandboxes, myself.

Edit: Herp, derp, OP says it right at the end of the post there. Odd how difficult this is co find out elsewhere though. In other news: When I read that I did a little dance. A legit little dance. You shoulda seen it. It was legit.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Neonivek on May 02, 2013, 08:16:13 pm

Quote

I'd love to see the activity over there increase!

Well to my knowledge the game isn't out yet. High activity before release tends to burn out the community.

Though perhaps I should jump onboard the official forums and give my two cents in. Though I think they have enough of those.

DANG I really gotta start my summer project.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Kaje on May 03, 2013, 12:48:29 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 02, 2013, 08:16:13 pm

Quote

I'd love to see the activity over there increase!

Well to my knowledge the game isn't out yet. High activity before release tends to burn out the community.

Though perhaps I should jump onboard the official forums and give my two cents in. Though I think they have enough of those.

DANG I really gotta start my summer project.

Your knowledge would be correct, Neonivek!

Though  I would argue against your point that activity prior to release tends to burn out a community, you only have to look at forums for games like Project Zomboid and Xenonauts to see a fairly consistent activity from opening of the forums to releases of Alphas, Betas and beyond!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: jocan2003 on May 03, 2013, 02:48:28 pm

Opening a forum is nice but devs will need to keep feeding the said community, look at sataebound they always spits stuff to talk about, If you open a forum and simply feed it sporadicly, you will starve them and it wil slowly die.

In the case of xenonauts, well they keep on adding feature and new builds wich feed the cmomunity, also being open to modding greatly help to feed the said community again. A forum is a great tool if you know how to manage and use it, or it can also be the *death* of your community before release. Because say it or not, the more your commuity grows and feeds of your involvment with them, the more they will spread the word and build up hype about your game without needing much of you exept some spoiler image and some food for mind on the way there.

Im sorry if i seem incoherent im talking on the phone to sort out issues with my ISP at the same time and im french, mix both and it turns out funny at best XD

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on May 03, 2013, 03:03:02 pm

Guys I really suggest going into the level zero Facebook page and checking it out spark has been posting development ideas and sorts of missions you can pull of. Just damn he makes me want the game so badly

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on May 03, 2013, 03:05:09 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on May 03, 2013, 03:03:02 pm

Guys I really suggest going into the level zero Facebook page and checking it out spark has been posting development ideas and sorts of missions you can pull of. Just damn he makes me want the game so badly

Blargh. I loathe trying to drum up interest via Facebook. While it's a necessary evil for him (not even really necessary, people opt to be part of the Facebook paradigm), I'd rather make out with a cheese grater than Like anything on Facebook anymore. And it's the absolute last place I will ever go to get information, period.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on May 03, 2013, 03:25:23 pm

Quote from: nenjin on May 03, 2013, 03:05:09 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on May 03, 2013, 03:03:02 pm

Guys I really suggest going into the level zero Facebook page and checking it out spark has been posting development ideas and sorts of missions you can pull of. Just damn he makes me want the game so badly

Blargh. I loathe trying to drum up interest via Facebook. While it's a necessary evil for him (not even really necessary, people opt to be part of the Facebook paradigm), I'd rather make out with a cheese grater than Like anything on Facebook anymore. And it's the absolute last place I will ever go to get information, period.

Don't be silly you don't even have to have a log in to read his posts so you can still keep upto date with all his posts.


Also I suggest we bug him to set up a blog for this

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on May 03, 2013, 03:32:07 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on May 03, 2013, 03:25:23 pm

Quote from: nenjin on May 03, 2013, 03:05:09 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on May 03, 2013, 03:03:02 pm

Guys I really suggest going into the level zero Facebook page and checking it out spark has been posting development ideas and sorts of missions you can pull of. Just damn he makes me want the game so badly

Blargh. I loathe trying to drum up interest via Facebook. While it's a necessary evil for him (not even really necessary, people opt to be part of the Facebook paradigm), I'd rather make out with a cheese grater than Like anything on Facebook anymore. And it's the absolute last place I will ever go to get information, period.

Don't be silly you don't even have to have a log in to read his posts so you can still keep upto date with all his posts.

Not my point. I dislike a world where people feel Facebook is a place to discuss things that aren't what you ate today or what color your baby's poop is this morning. I'd prefer he focus his updates on his forums so he can build a community there. I'd also prefer to read stuff there.

I don't blame him. But fuck Facebook as a communication tool.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on May 03, 2013, 04:07:12 pm

I don't have a TwOMF. :<

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on May 05, 2013, 03:16:25 pm

Hi! Silly email update thing only just sent me a notice people were still in this thread!

Quote from: bobusdoleus on May 02, 2013, 08:13:59 pm

It's frustratingly difficult to figure out the genre of this game.
I prefer sandboxes, myself.

So do I! The genre is... I guess strategy, sub genre of "espionage simulation", with a healthy dose of emergent narratives. But yes, it has the open sandbox and the "story campaign", sort of like how uplink did it would be the best example.

Quote

Forums and Facebook

They are pretty dry, but until the game is actually putting out builds it's a bit of a hard spot. the future feature and such threads I've been posting on FB are really simple and meant to be "buried", they're more of a quick engagement and "i'm bored and can't sleep" kind of thing.
And sad to say, the FB page is more popular and it's actually better for the company and exposure if we get more action going on there, which means more people coming to the community through there.

Believe me though, once the actual game comes out and we need some meaty updates, THAT is something the forums are going to shine at, since facebook is only good for small quick threads or links. The forums will be the first stop for updates (linked to FB), and all the community engagement and content building (submitting new ops/missions/assets/stories/etc), all the stuff that needs a more permanent home.

So FB is the gate, the forums are the kingdom :) (the kingdom is just a bunch of fallow fields until the game is ready, though (I have no idea why I went for a medieval analogy here)).

And yes, I opened the forums early because of some vocal minorities, and I'm glad to do so for them, but I don't really have the content to pump it up just yet!

Quote

blog

Waste of time, unfortunately. :-/ I had one for previous projects but it just sucked my attention from development. If you want the up-to-the-minute stuff, that'll be on the twitter. If you want the big updates, that'll be on the forums/fb. I still have that newsletter I havent used once, but I'll start using that for big release/updates stuff when we get there.

Quote

TwOMF

I have no idea what this is, but a google image search pulls up some confederate flags, crappy etsy jewelry, and fancy toilet seat covers.

Side note: I would fucking LOVE to use Google+. Everything LZG is run through google, and I think the design is WAY better for fan pages and communities. But there's also like... 8 people on there.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Aklyon on May 05, 2013, 03:40:07 pm

I heard g+ hangouts have less-than-great quality compared to just streaming on [livestreaming site here], too.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on May 05, 2013, 04:17:12 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on May 05, 2013, 03:16:25 pm

Quote

TwOMF

I have no idea what this is, but a google image search pulls up some confederate flags, crappy etsy jewelry, and fancy toilet seat covers.

Twitter On My Face.

It's a mashup of Twitter, Facebook and MySpace.  I got it out of some weird youtube video that I've never been able to find again.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Aklyon on May 05, 2013, 04:20:20 pm

Its a neat idea probably, but its a mashup of one thing you can barely write two sentences in, one thing thats dead for any important points, and one thing that has farmville in it.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 02, 2013, 03:43:34 pm

Just a heads up. Feeling the lack of updates I peeked in on Facebook, and the prototype is due at the end of June. There's a lot of info on the LZ FB page, I just don't have the wherewithal to sift through all the trud to find it.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Parsely on June 02, 2013, 03:52:58 pm

Hrm. Sounds worth looking into I guess. I'll probably forget about it by he time I get around to remembering to do it.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on June 02, 2013, 03:54:31 pm

I will post a collection of the updates posted on Facebook here so everyone can see them tomorrow. Some of the future features updates make me so excited for the game.

Prototype will be out on the 30th I saw spark say he has had a few problems.

Also I really hope after the prototype has been released we do get a blog or forum posts what ever even just to say "hey the next update is going well I have done X and Y considering X and Y need some feedback " what ever else

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 02, 2013, 04:47:15 pm

Quote from: nenjin on June 02, 2013, 03:43:34 pm

Just a heads up. Feeling the lack of updates I peeked in on Facebook, and the prototype is due at the end of June. There's a lot of info on the LZ FB page, I just don't have the wherewithal to sift through all the trud to find it.

Oh cool.  Thanks for the update.  I don't have a Facespace, so I never even thought to look.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Zangi on June 02, 2013, 04:56:20 pm

Huh...  I was just wondering about the paypal transaction I sent...  They havn't really sent a reply for it... other then the receipt.  I did send a message asking stuff way back when.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ollobrains on June 02, 2013, 05:54:58 pm

so basically vapourware soon

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: MrWiggles on June 02, 2013, 07:05:23 pm

Oh my gosh.


So whats so magical about this game that it cannot in anyway suffer from set backs and having to push dates up?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ollobrains on June 02, 2013, 07:25:02 pm

great idea for a game however publicity at the moment and any developers major major boo boo ie not communicating where youre up to at least once a week.  If it gets put out i reckon it wil be a good idea however a lot of kickstarters are failing to go from funding to outputs

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 02, 2013, 07:28:58 pm

Quote from: ollobrains on June 02, 2013, 07:25:02 pm

great idea for a game however publicity at the moment and any developers major major boo boo ie not communicating where youre up to at least once a week.  If it gets put out i reckon it wil be a good idea however a lot of kickstarters are failing to go from funding to outputs

You mean like their massive Facebook presence?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Aklyon on June 02, 2013, 07:34:36 pm

The dev really could do with a better communications platform than using facebook. But at least he's saying things where some people can see them if they bother to check that site. Its better than checking a twitter at the least.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 04, 2013, 01:56:59 pm

Hey everybody!
I need to fiddle with the settings on this forum... by the time I get an email notice that someone responded to this thread, I come back and there are tons of posts...

G+ Hangouts
Yeah the video quality isn't so hot, but 1. they're working on it, 2. that's not as important to me as engaging people and having some more of that community stuff going on.

Updates
Anytime I do something of actual worth to talk about (i.e. an actual release, game update, etc), it gets blasted to all channels: FB, twitter, newsletter, G+, forum, etc. But it's just been me plodding away on code so there hasn't been anything fresh. I need to keep my focus on development, or else there's no game to post updates about!

Facebook
As for "trud", I feel like our LZG page is pretty clean! Most of the updates are fun things...

Quote from: Zangi on June 02, 2013, 04:56:20 pm

They havn't really sent a reply for it... other then the receipt.  I did send a message asking stuff way back when.

The receipts are all that went out. Did I not respond to your message? Can you send it again if not, as it may have gotten lost in the mass of emails (sorry about that!)?

Vapourware
The only vapourware here will be if your assets get stolen from under your nose!
I'm communicating what's up way more than once a week, on FB and twitter.

Post Platform
Ok, so the problem is everyone wants something different, and maintaining all the channels everyone wants KILLS my time. I've spent all day today just going through more social stuff instead of working on the game as I should, especially as there's only a few weeks left till launch! I hear people's frustrations with using Facebook, and when the time comes, either during the prototype launch or soon after, I'll switch to a different more open system. Either I'll push things through on the blog on the website and link them everywhere, or something else.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 02:11:15 pm

Quote

Facebook
As for "trud", I feel like our LZG page is pretty clean! Most of the updates are fun things...

Well, to give a compare/contrast. Look at the DF front page. It clearly lists everything in a readable format, effectively bullet pointed, in descending order and there's no muss or fuss. You can tell instantly what's new. Compare that to your FB page, which not only has non-game links in it, but aallllllllllll the FB UI garbage, ads, images, lists and junk that clutter the screen. If you're ALREADY using FB, it's probably what you're used to. If you're not, or you don't use it that often, you have to play visual weedwhacker.

And more to the point, I don't want to have to sift through cat pictures, links to other projects, random thoughts and what not when all I want is info on the game itself. This is my core issue with FB as a communication platform, as I said in my FB post. You are saddling every user with all the garbage FB includes, and you're blending your personal social presence and your game's presence together, and that doesn't help info gathering, readability or clarity.

I'll be happy with whatever, in the end. What's really at stake here is your post-launch community, and how fractured it could end up being because you're presence is spread out in so many places. Then again, I'm just a forum junkie, so that's how I perceive how communities form best.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 04, 2013, 02:14:56 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on June 04, 2013, 01:56:59 pm

Post Platform
Ok, so the problem is everyone wants something different, and maintaining all the channels everyone wants KILLS my time. I've spent all day today just going through more social stuff instead of working on the game as I should, especially as there's only a few weeks left till launch! I hear people's frustrations with using Facebook, and when the time comes, either during the prototype launch or soon after, I'll switch to a different more open system. Either I'll push things through on the blog on the website and link them everywhere, or something else.

Post where you post, don't let people's opinions bother you.  No really!  You've made the announcement about the official forums, it's their fault for not going there.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on June 04, 2013, 02:31:38 pm

Just don't forget about your kickstarters otherwise they get cranky haha. I have seen a few people fire and forget on KS and then complain about lack of updates, when any updates which were made were not posted on kickstarter

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 04, 2013, 03:12:18 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on June 04, 2013, 02:31:38 pm

Just don't forget about your kickstarters otherwise they get cranky haha. I have seen a few people fire and forget on KS and then complain about lack of updates, when any updates which were made were not posted on kickstarter

You mean like the update that said "I'm not going to do periodic updates on Kickstarter, go here instead" (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage/posts/444645)?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 03:17:43 pm

Which, you know, makes little sense to me. Kickstarter is already an aggregate of the people who have given you money. It's already a mailing list of people you owe something to. Why not use it, at least up until release, even to announce small things, let alone the giant announcements? At times I'm a little perplexed by SB's desire for "community management tools" when he doesn't use the ones that are already readily available to him. I get he wants to drive traffic somewhere, what I don't get is where and why.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 04, 2013, 03:23:24 pm

Quote from: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 03:17:43 pm

Which, you know, makes little sense to me. Kickstarter is already an aggregate of the people who have given you money. It's already a mailing list of people you owe something to. Why not use it, at least up until release, even to announce small things, let alone the giant announcements? At times I'm a little perplexed by SB's desire for "community management tools" when he doesn't use the ones that are already readily available to him. I get he wants to drive traffic somewhere, what I don't get is where and why.

For one, very simple reason:

For all those people who find his game after Kickstarter can join a thriving community without having to join Kickstarter and then find only [Backer Only] updates.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 03:30:26 pm

I think it's a necessary part of the time commitment to manage both your backers and your future, potential fans. I get a one-size fits all approach is ideal.....but the tools are there, now, to keep backers directly informed. And right now they ARE the community. While I'm not going to get bent out of shape, because I'm capable of finding updates, it's not exactly formenting a strong community when your first decision is that they need to chase you across the internet. Simply continuing to use the backer updates avoid that problem, even if it introduces a new one of having to cross post information. Is copy/pasting the content of an update from your Kickstarter email to (an html webpage, a facebook comment, a forum post) truly that time consuming?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 04, 2013, 03:35:21 pm

Quote from: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 03:30:26 pm

I think it's a necessary part of the time commitment to manage both your backers and your future, potential fans. I get a one-size fits all approach is ideal.....but the tools are there, now, to keep backers directly informed. And right now they ARE the community. While I'm not going to get bent out of shape, because I'm capable of finding updates, it's not exactly formenting a strong community when your first decision is that they need to chase you across the internet. Simply continuing to use the backer updates avoid that problem, even if it introduces a new one of having to cross post information.

Just FYI, he's not the only person to do this.

I don't know if you've been paying attention lately, but Doublefine has their own forums where they post 90% of their updates.  Kickstarter only gets about 10%

I found out that their game got a name, changed from a development name, and that backers got to vote for it.

I went, "Wait, what?" because last I'd known (cough, been paying attention) they were still in the brainstorming super secretive phase.

Now, had I been on the forums--which I KNEW existed and which I KNEW had more news--I'd have known this.  But I wasn't.  Because I didn't have the time to deal with a community of ninety thousand people.  By the time I even registered for the forum account the forums were chock full of speculation and "hi, I'm Jon" threads and I pretty much logged out after three minutes.

Of course, I hadn't really been watching the video updates they did posted on Kickstarter either....

Do I bitch at them?

No.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Aklyon on June 04, 2013, 03:44:24 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on June 04, 2013, 01:56:59 pm

Hey everybody!
I need to fiddle with the settings on this forum... by the time I get an email notice that someone responded to this thread, I come back and there are tons of posts...

G+ Hangouts
Yeah the video quality isn't so hot, but 1. they're working on it, 2. that's not as important to me as engaging people and having some more of that community stuff going on.

I'm not going to complain if you really want to do it that way, but theres two things I want to bring up of relevance:
1, (may be wrong here, if you can actually see these sans account) I don't think many people who don't have a G+ account in the first place are going to want to have to get one just to see a stream when you don't need to do a thing to see a livestream or stream on justin/twitch.tv, and those let you set the quality to whatever you think you can handle.
2, from the pictures I've seen, this is probably going to have a lot of text in not a huge size. And reading smaller text on a stream usually requires 480p at minimum (for youtube in fullscreen), or closer to 720p if you aren't in fullscreen and want to still be legible.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on June 04, 2013, 03:44:49 pm

Quote from: Draco18s on June 04, 2013, 03:12:18 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on June 04, 2013, 02:31:38 pm

Just don't forget about your kickstarters otherwise they get cranky haha. I have seen a few people fire and forget on KS and then complain about lack of updates, when any updates which were made were not posted on kickstarter

You mean like the update that said "I'm not going to do periodic updates on Kickstarter, go here instead" (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage/posts/444645)?

As said with the fire and forget I follow spark on Facebook and check daily for updates. But even I forgot he had posted that update on kickstarter and I was just saying :P

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 03:47:25 pm

Quote

Do I bitch at them?

Am I bitching at him? I don't think so, although I can understand the perception. I'm just voicing my concerns and preferences, which is exactly what he asked for on Facebook (and has gotten about 4 replies to, I might add.)

Quote

I don't know if you've been paying attention lately, but Doublefine has their own forums where they post 90% of their updates.  Kickstarter only gets about 10%

We are in agreement this is an inherently unequal comparison on most levels, right?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 04, 2013, 04:00:20 pm

Quote from: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 03:47:25 pm

Quote

Do I bitch at them?

Am I bitching at him? I don't think so, although I can understand the perception. I'm just voicing my concerns and preferences, which is exactly what he asked for on Facebook (and has gotten about 4 replies to, I might add.)

General sentiment, not necessarily you in particular.

Quote

Quote

I don't know if you've been paying attention lately, but Doublefine has their own forums where they post 90% of their updates.  Kickstarter only gets about 10%

We are in agreement this is an inherently unequal comparison on most levels, right?

Probably.  But I don't see why a small developer can't have their own forums too.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 04, 2013, 04:13:45 pm

I think looking at this post by MoaCube (http://moacube.com/blog/how-we-handle-our-social-networks/) will give you a good idea on what I'm thinking about now.
I love twitter because it keeps me from wasting time on big dev updates when I should be... well, developing. Facebook has been our best way to reach our old fans, new fans, and new potential fans, though as MoaCube says as well that's been changing.

Really, I hope we'll save the rest of this conversation until after the game is launched.  I plan on making a direct info page on the web site, which will show the Twitter dev updates on top, the post updates (launch, content updates, important things) under that, and links to the social communities and wiki. The individual communities will get crossposts to what matters to them. Basically i need to push content to where people are instead of making them go out of their way to check yet-another-site, because if it comes down to it they simply wont.

As for Kickstarter, you should know that the backend for posting updates is actually completely horrible. They have a terrible editor that often screws up your work as you're writing it, no draft option, no useful way to sort/find users, and a bunch of other crap that just gets the way.  Not to mention, it's only good for existing backers (many of which only use kickstarter to buy things, not as a community, as it's not very good at that), and new people are excluded, splitting the community again.  I do want to reach out to people where they are, but they're on social platforms like Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc.

As for hangouts, they broadcast to youtube, you don't need an account to see them (or the G+ page for that matter). the text thing is an issue but i was mainly planning on using it to talk to the community in a more face to face manner.  i'll switch to some other streaming thing if they don't get their act together and deal with the image quality.

I asked for feedback, it's all good :)

We do have forums, but until the launch at the end of the month there's not much content to share. Basically this whole conversation should really be tabled until i'm on the content schedule we'll have, since there's not much to say now.

Speaking of, I need to get back to work!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 04:36:10 pm

Quote

I plan on making a direct info page on the web site, which will show the Twitter dev updates on top, the post updates (launch, content updates, important things) under that, and links to the social communities and wiki. The individual communities will get crossposts to what matters to them. Basically i need to push content to where people are instead of making them go out of their way to check yet-another-site, because if it comes down to it they simply wont.

This is good enough for me, truly. A top-level site for information is all I really want. From there I can decide which community group/groups I want to contribute to. As long as I can go one place and see updates right at the top, I can deal with the rest.

Although if your game has a future for modding, where people decide to contribute becomes a lot more important. Like, consider what DF would be like without the modding forum where all that stuff gets aggregated.

Quote

As for Kickstarter, you should know that the backend for posting updates is actually completely horrible.

Yeah I had no idea. I assumed it was at least at the level of, I dunno, Wordpress.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 04, 2013, 04:46:31 pm

Nope, it's awful. Heheh, like... unnecessarily bad. copy/pasting into/from their window completely rips out the formatting, screws up the spacing, and causes glitches.

Yeah, i think the top-level will work best, while still letting me reach people in their social platform of choice, and increase the game's visibility.

Forums are definitely and always have been my expected repository for modding and content stuff.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 04, 2013, 04:57:08 pm

Quote from: nenjin on June 04, 2013, 04:36:10 pm

Yeah I had no idea. I assumed it was at least at the level of, I dunno, Wordpress.

No, it's pretty bad (http://s14.postimage.org/jbae7gupd/kickstarter_update.png)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 09, 2013, 04:58:08 pm

I'm still worried people are not going to be pleased with how raw the prototype is. Not only is it missing many of the core features that really add life to the game (traits, headlines, operations, etc), but it's not very pretty with blocks of text. (As seen in the latest KS Update (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage/posts/500356))

I just have to keep my focus on gameplay development as my temptation to switch to pretty this early will just undercut all the important stuff that still has to get done, and a good portion of it will probably have to get scrapped when the game design shifts in this early mutable stage.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on June 09, 2013, 05:12:20 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on June 09, 2013, 04:58:08 pm

I'm still worried people are not going to be pleased with how raw the prototype is. Not only is it missing many of the core features that really add life to the game (traits, headlines, operations, etc), but it's not very pretty with blocks of text. (As seen in the latest KS Update (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/levelzerogames/net-gain-corporate-espionage/posts/500356))

I just have to keep my focus on gameplay development as my temptation to switch to pretty this early will just undercut all the important stuff that still has to get done, and a good portion of it will probably have to get scrapped when the game design shifts in this early mutable stage.

Stick with what you have spark and keep going even if the game is not nice looking if some of the functionality is there saying "hey this is how I am now and I'm going to be so much better later" that's all what matters. Try and get what you think is most important to give the best impression of the prototype done before release even if it means pushing back the date.

I personally like the boxes so long as some even a little functionality is there which makes it a little fun and you can play with your operatives and see what it's like I will be happy

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Aklyon on June 09, 2013, 06:27:19 pm

Uplink was full of boxes, and look how far that got. :)

The prototype likely coming out on my birthday makes me wish I'd had more money earlier though :-\

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 10, 2013, 04:47:23 pm

Your birthday!? Send me an email, we'll work somethin' out. :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: hemmingjay on June 10, 2013, 05:54:02 pm

Sparkbolt, just be honest with your community. Most of us will support you through anything as long as you are honest and don't disappear for long periods of time.

Edit: I backed at the Persona level and have never lost faith.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: jocan2003 on June 10, 2013, 06:56:21 pm

Mah birthday too! And me too never lost faith, in fact... unless you disapear for months... and even then, i dont think i will because you are quite advance in your game and i know its something you care about.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 10, 2013, 07:05:15 pm

Where's this whole faith thing coming from?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2013, 07:10:18 pm

Quote from: nenjin on June 10, 2013, 07:05:15 pm

Where's this whole faith thing coming from?

With most games they don't announce anything until they are mostly done with the game and even then they just do teasers if they want to announce things really early.

With Kickstarters people are 100 times more impatient. If you go away for a month because you are intensely working on the game people will suddenly start raving and throwing chairs around.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 10, 2013, 07:12:02 pm

I meant this thread specifically. I don't think anyone has said anything about losing faith in the game as a product.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: jocan2003 on June 10, 2013, 07:19:01 pm

Quote from: nenjin on June 10, 2013, 07:12:02 pm

I meant this thread specifically. I don't think anyone has said anything about losing faith in the game as a product.

No idea, either. Im that bizarre today...

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Zangi on June 10, 2013, 11:34:38 pm

Eh, just implying I guess.

Do you plan on sending a batch email to Paypal people also when you finally release and stuff?  How bout the reward levels/information for em?

That was basically my question from way back when.  (I tend to be a fire and forget till it gets done person.)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: BlindKitty on June 13, 2013, 01:49:07 am

Don't know if everybody is using Twitter, so I just wanted to make it known here, as I find it pretty revolutionary: sparkbolt has found a second programmer to work on Net Gain! :) However, to cite him: "It'll mean less in the short term while we get on the same page, but more in the long term and faster updates with double the manpower!". But oh well, it is like with all investments, isn't it? You invest now, to get more later. ;)
I'm just glad there are more cyberpunk - loving programmers out there. :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Draco18s on June 13, 2013, 06:59:57 am

Quote from: BlindKitty on June 13, 2013, 01:49:07 am

"It'll mean less in the short term while we get on the same page, but more in the long term and faster updates with double the manpower!"

I know how that is.  My company hired a second .NET developer to tackle this "oh, it needs to be built in a week" project.  Nothing difficult, just sheer volume.  Took a day or two to get the guy up to speed with how we operated and such.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 13, 2013, 10:36:00 am

It's minor news, but good news. Having a grunt programmer frees him to work on other things, like getting the prototype as shiny as possible.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 13, 2013, 02:40:50 pm

Heheh, yeah no faith required. I'll always be keeping people informed about what I'm up to, and I'll adjust the method in which I do that until (most) people are happy. I'm fully aware of the power and benefits of forthrightness and honesty... not just in work but in life at large! It can often be really shitty, but it also steers you away from the worst things in life that arise from deception and bullshit.

Er, anyway.

Everyone is getting a message when something important happens. paypal, kickstarter, fb, twitter, newsletter, etc... whatever channel people are listening to, they'll hear the announcement.

Yeah the second programmer is:
1. not a sure thing yet. I still need to vet his work ethic and quality. I've got good hopes (hence willing to pony up to get a new desktop built so soon), but we'll see how it plays out. It's also only full time for 3 months at which point he goes back to school and I'm not sure what we'll do then, either part time or none. Also his goal is to end up at a bigger development house, so this may be more of a stepping stone unless he really gets into the project.
2. not doing much for the prototype, given the deadline. Aside from eating up some of my time this month to set him up and get him rolling. But it should mean more growth over the next 3 months than I'd be able to do on my own.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 23, 2013, 09:33:03 pm

Got some new pictures up on the ol FB. Actually pretty happy with today's progress! I'm finally starting to see glimpses of that game I was trying to build, shining through the awkward and unfinished scaffolding. :D

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Sensei on June 23, 2013, 10:06:32 pm

This sounds cool, maybe I shoulda backed it :P

Also, if you're torn between adding raw content and making something presentable, you could just take an hour or two to photoshop a an example of what you want the interface to look like for presentation purposes.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 23, 2013, 10:11:43 pm

Oh I've got some mockups up on the kickstarter already. So right now my focus is definitely on content. pretty can come later.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 23, 2013, 11:48:12 pm

So this F-Team of nerds was supposed to do some brawling to steal away a rival politician...
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1005874_10151579999918449_1324569471_n.png)
They failed the mission *repeatedly*, the bastards... until finally-
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1048021_10151580042063449_645422009_o.png)
The guy listens to reason, and lets Marcus do what he does best and talk the politico into a better life on our side.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/430138_10151580042053449_135396196_n.png)
Aside from a quick and bloody mishap at a border checkpoint, the mission went off without a hitch!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: EuchreJack on June 24, 2013, 03:35:20 am

Looks cool, I'm a big fan of this game.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: BlindKitty on June 24, 2013, 04:35:59 am

I love the looks. You know, in many games, the longer I play, the less I care about the graphics - it starts coming in my way. If I could just have tokens in HoMM III... ;) And there, there is just enough graphics to make it feel 2043, and not a bit more. Like someone wise once said, the project is perfect not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to subtract.
Yes, I'm strange, I admit that. :P

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: hemmingjay on June 24, 2013, 07:11:02 am

As of yesterday, Spark is still aiming for first playable launch on the 30th! I think I might keel over from shock if a KS project actually manages to hit their projections. Netgain has the potential to become the next Liberal Crime Squad and I couldn't be more excited.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Knave on June 24, 2013, 09:30:13 am

Hmm, do backers receive e-mails about the progress of this? I backed on Paypal and I haven't received any mail yet, so I was just wondering if that was just me or if everyone was getting e-mailed at a later date.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 24, 2013, 10:06:27 am

Quote from: hemmingjay on June 24, 2013, 07:11:02 am

As of yesterday, Spark is still aiming for first playable launch on the 30th! I think I might keel over from shock if a KS project actually manages to hit their projections. Netgain has the potential to become the next Liberal Crime Squad and I couldn't be more excited.

Seconded. While I'm not expecting a ton out of the prototype, for people that have played LCS, its unfinished UI and such shouldn't provide a big barrier to enjoyment.

Hey sparks, you were planning on eventually having visuals as was shown in the KS right? Something about the panoramic view of the city really adds to the atmosphere.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 24, 2013, 01:43:08 pm

Quote from: BlindKitty on June 24, 2013, 04:35:59 am

I love the looks. You know, in many games, the longer I play, the less I care about the graphics - it starts coming in my way. If I could just have tokens in HoMM III... ;) And there, there is just enough graphics to make it feel 2043, and not a bit more. Like someone wise once said, the project is perfect not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to subtract.
Yes, I'm strange, I admit that. :P

Yeah, I do want it to have a sharp look eventually, but it's less of a priority than gameplay of course. They're important for bringing people into the game, though, and realling immersing people in the world and connecting to the characters!
Also, pretty pretty graphs <3

Quote from: hemmingjay on June 24, 2013, 07:11:02 am

As of yesterday, Spark is still aiming for first playable launch on the 30th! I think I might keel over from shock if a KS project actually manages to hit their projections. Netgain has the potential to become the next Liberal Crime Squad and I couldn't be more excited.

Yeah, the prototype is much less than I was hoping for, but it's still playable and the whole point is to build it up while you guys play anyway. Luckily I had more than a few contingencies in place for just such delays! I definitely think fans of LCS will like this as well!

Quote from: Knave on June 24, 2013, 09:30:13 am

Hmm, do backers receive e-mails about the progress of this? I backed on Paypal and I haven't received any mail yet, so I was just wondering if that was just me or if everyone was getting e-mailed at a later date.

Everyone will get an email whether for the kickstarter or paypal. Paypal should have sent out receipts for everyone when you pledged. I'm only sending emails for launch so to not bother people, otherwise you can follow progress on the FB or twitter.

Quote from: nenjin on June 24, 2013, 10:06:27 am

Quote from: hemmingjay on June 24, 2013, 07:11:02 am

As of yesterday, Spark is still aiming for first playable launch on the 30th! I think I might keel over from shock if a KS project actually manages to hit their projections. Netgain has the potential to become the next Liberal Crime Squad and I couldn't be more excited.

Seconded. While I'm not expecting a ton out of the prototype, for people that have played LCS, its unfinished UI and such shouldn't provide a big barrier to enjoyment.
Hey sparks, you were planning on eventually having visuals as was shown in the KS right? Something about the panoramic view of the city really adds to the atmosphere.

That's the hope on both counts! The city got pushed back a lot since it's a purely visual element that requires a significant amount of work, but yeah the BG will be prettier than a blue screen. In a few weeks I hope to have a basic pre-genned city placeholder. The rest of the graphics will take their time, being implemented once their features are locked down... but right now there's still a ton of core game to make!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: sparkbolt on June 27, 2013, 09:57:08 am

I have (very quietly) uploaded a gameplay video (http://www.indiedb.com/games/net-gain-corporate-espionage) of the prototype to indieDB, in hopes of getting on their service. I thought I'd at least let you guys know ;)

Stay frosty.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Kaje on June 27, 2013, 10:13:22 am

Looks rough but functional, I really can't wait to get my hands on it!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: BlindKitty on June 27, 2013, 12:30:41 pm

You see, I have had really, really great hopes for the finished game. Really.
And the prototype seems to be surpassing those already.
You might have broke my mind, mister! Mine very own, it-never-is-better-than-they-said-it-would-be, pessimistic mind! Are you proud of yourself?

And of course, because of the nature's balance thing, I have to be starting a new internship a day after the prototype goes live. There is no justice. :D

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Scelly9 on June 27, 2013, 12:44:16 pm

That looks pretty freaking cool.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: Aklyon on June 27, 2013, 01:04:44 pm

It doesn't look that great. BUT, I can tell what you're going for with it anyway and it sounds awesome.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 27, 2013, 02:58:45 pm

Quote from: Aklyon on June 27, 2013, 01:04:44 pm

It doesn't look that great. BUT, I can tell what you're going for with it anyway and it sounds awesome.

+1

Just needs slightly better visual organization. It's just lists right now, and they're dense lists.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: ScriptWolf on June 27, 2013, 04:27:31 pm

Love the video spark ! I'm so excited for Sunday ! The only little qualm I have with it right now is the lists are so very dense you could get lost in them haha :p but hey ho it's a prototype.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. AKA The Mr. Johnson Sim
Post by: nenjin on June 27, 2013, 06:48:18 pm

Now that I've had a chance to watch it in detail (the phone had a hard time playing it at the airport.)

*obligatory yes I know it's a prototype statement.*

I'm liking what I see. Loved some of the news items. "Space Invaders uncovered at New York pizzeria." (Something like that.)

You moved through that pretty quickly and there was a lot to digest, but I felt like there was a lack of contrast to the menus. There's different fonts and justification, some size differences, but not a lot of color variation. Things also feel a little cramped, which I get because you want people to be able to see as much info side-by-side as possible. That's why it feels so dense though.

What's your thinking on tool tips? Seems like a lot of stats have nested values. I personally love tool tips and I think this game especially needs them.

Will global travel (outside the mission area) ever pose challenges? (I suppose with high enough heat?) If it doesn't that's alright, I like that travel time has to be factored for. There's a lot of traveling though. Does that link in any way with operatives forming loyalties with each other. (You get to know people really well, perhaps too well, on business trips :P)

I like the sliding menu animation, although part of me wants them staggered in their presentation, or some other visual trick that makes their relationship to each other more clear. That their attached and run left to right does that, but it's what also leads to it being visually cramped.

I assume things listed under Mission Plots like Hack(Spy) is in the format of Action(School)? In the interest of contrast, maybe the school should be smaller and/or different colored?

I harp on contrast because games this data rich can really wear out your eyes. A back drop and the full UI I'm sure will do a great deal to ameliorate this, but I can see myself getting bleary eyed after an hour or two of that.

And will decision moments mid-mission be functional in the prototype, or have those not been implemented yet?

There seem to be a lot of crazy skills, which is a good thing! Humanities (History)? Interested to know what kinds of things those less than obvious skills apply to.

Anyways, for all that critiquing, I'm pretty excited to start playing around with it. I don't imagine there's a ton of content, but I"m eager to see how things are balanced and hooked together.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype Video Up~
Post by: sparkbolt on June 27, 2013, 11:25:24 pm

Quote from: Kaje on June 27, 2013, 10:13:22 am

Looks rough but functional, I really can't wait to get my hands on it!

Rough being the key word!

Quote from: BlindKitty on June 27, 2013, 12:30:41 pm

You see, I have had really, really great hopes for the finished game. Really.
And the prototype seems to be surpassing those already.
You might have broke my mind, mister! Mine very own, it-never-is-better-than-they-said-it-would-be, pessimistic mind! Are you proud of yourself?

And of course, because of the nature's balance thing, I have to be starting a new internship a day after the prototype goes live. There is no justice. :D

Well it's definitely got a lot of rough ends still, so that internship is a blessing!  Gives me time to work out some of the worst bugs, maybe even do some balancing!

As I've said, it's gonna look pretty rough for a while...  The vertical menus are mainly a way for me to quickly prototype ideas.  As certain items come up more often, I can make GUI prefabs for them, such as the operative buttons that show their status, or the plot buttons that fill up as it completes.  Once features get more locked down, dedicated interfaces for those elements can appear.  For example, once the world and movement stuff gets clearer, I'll be adding a world map!

Pretty much anything you see that is just text is to be replaced with a graphical element.
This is also why the menus are a bit drab, as they're supposed to have colorful and animated buttons on top of them, and the current items aren't supposed to fight those for attention!

Don't worry, I plan on iterating and improving the interface along with the game design and art!

Tool tips will have their place, that up to the but I find they're best for supplementary information.

The operative loyalty will eventually develop whenever they're in proximity working together, and traveling through territory controlled by enemies, or experiencing some conflict/disaster/etc, can lead to nasty things popping up! (just not currently)

I want to do some fancy 3D effects, but the GUI has been giving enough trouble for now.  It'll be restructured later.

Actually that "Hack(Spy)" thing is the objective(plot type)! I know... it's rough. I'm going for functionality right now.

Critical Event's arent in yet, still needmoroe of the core features locked down.

The less essential skills get implemented in a few ways...  Most plots can accrue a small collection of side challenges that can be fairly eclectic.  If you have an operative that has that skill, perhaps as a hobby, you can put them on the team to ensure your mission's success!  Sometimes a plot is all about one of the small skills, such as examining a forgery, or arguing a case, or scuba diving in the arctic!  Remember that all skills essentially worked the same way, it's more about what the plots require.

Now, Back to work! I'm about to implement a massive rewrite of a core class aspect. at midnight. 3 days from launch.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype Video Up~
Post by: Kaje on June 28, 2013, 02:45:34 am

Good luck, Sparky!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype Video Up~
Post by: Mullet Master on June 29, 2013, 04:03:59 pm

Bump!

Let's all keep our fingers crossed that the rewrite went ok, I'm really excited for this prototype!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype Video Up~
Post by: EuchreJack on June 30, 2013, 10:20:25 pm

I'm looking forward to reading the comments of beta testers!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype Video Up~
Post by: sparkbolt on July 01, 2013, 12:51:21 am

Prototype testers! Beta is a long ways away! small but important distinction, already dealing with some of the backdraft from people who were expecting a year's worth of work by a team. It's super rough right now, but it's more about outlining where we're going to take it, and seeing it grow.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype Video Up~
Post by: BlindKitty on July 01, 2013, 06:06:37 am

This is looking great. :) Although, of course, not nearly approaching being finished, of course, but that was said before, so it should come as no surprise - but I can not only appreciate the potential, but also it being made on time declared before. :) My only little concern (which I will vocalize on the main game forums, too) is that I can't see which sub-challenge was failed in a mission. That is, if my operatives fail at Ambush!, i can't later check what exactly they screwed up. Most of it, probably, as they were all brains, no muscle, but I would be good to know still. :)
Anyway, even in this prototype stage, it feels nice to play with it around. :) When finished, I would expect really, really great game. :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype Video Up~
Post by: nenjin on July 01, 2013, 08:55:01 am

Didn't get a chance to play it, it released right as I was going to bed. I'll put some time in today and give my thoughts later.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Draco18s on July 01, 2013, 10:04:16 am

Initial thoughts:

1) Using the default resolution size, its possible to have menus expand sideways far enough to spill outside the game window
2) The ticker-tape at the bottom seems to move based on render-frames rather than time (multiply its movement by some factor of Time.deltaTime).  This is painfully obvious when you go into menus, the ticker tape will slow down dramatically as the game has to start rendering more stuff.
3) Do not like the main font face that comprises most of the text (the large-pixel format is very hard to read, especially on the buttons with corporation names on them).
4) Clicking a corporation under "Plan Mission" has no way to go back and pick a different corp without either clicking a mission type (Investigate was my only option and I was trying to find a corp that had another mission type) and then clicking cancel, or clicking the "mission menu" thing on the left.
5) It does not appear possible to fail a mission step without screwing up ALL sub-aspects.  For example there was a hacking segment that had 3 parts.  Hacking, Cracking and Data Flow.  Failing two out of the three was not sufficient to cause any additional mission parameters to get added and the entire segment was marked as "passed."
6) Scrolling down in a menu that gets its contents replaced when you chose an item (missions -> plan -> pick a company gets the last window replaced with mission type) doesn't cause that window to scroll back to the top, often making it look like you can't plan any missions against that target.

Edit:
Wat.
I can view the missions being performed by other corporations and pause them.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: ank on July 01, 2013, 10:12:53 am

This is looking really great!
Can I actually be Hydra in this?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: jhxmt on July 01, 2013, 05:48:22 pm

Even just as a prototype, I'm enjoying this - thank you for letting people see progress this early, it's much appreciated.  :)

The Good

I love the music.  Seriously, I could've quite happily sat on the title screen listening to the music.  The mild jukebox functionality available in the options menu is a nice touch.

Graphical style is quite consistent, even in the prototype - nothing appears massively out of place with the aesthetic.  It's pleasantly retro while still being sharp and smooth enough to feel modern.

I can already see the potential for quite some depth of gameplay here, which is a HUGE plus to me.  I accept that the prototype is (necessarily) very limited in content, but I can see a lot of structure already in place to build stuff on, which is positive.  I like the idea of wheels-within-wheels, lots of relatively simple systems being able to interact with each other to form something emergent (e.g. operative traits affecting relationships, which can affect mission outcomes, which can affect relationships and traits, etc).

I love the news ticker.  It's a nicely sardonic sense of humour you've got going there mixed in with some slightly straighter flavour text, I approve.  Is the intention to eventually have news items generated and woven into the ticker based on your/other corps' actions, too (e.g. "Corp X suffers loss of Asset Y in mysterious criminal raid" type stuff)?

The Bad

Not a lot - it is, after all, a prototype, so most of what I would normally classify as 'bad' is simply 'early days'!  ;)  With that said:

The interface can be a little overwhelming when you're trying to navigate many items at once.  Given how much data you're trying to display, it's relatively clean, but it took me a little while to realise e.g. that the objectives when planning a mission are a pick-list, not a full list.  It would be nice to have a little more visual display for some items (e.g. an operative's profile might be nice to have a dossier-type presentation, rather than just the text box it is currently).  I accept that that's an 'early days' item, though!

Some menu items display on three lines, while the boxes they appear in are only large enough for two, leading to overlap (e.g. a mission in progress, when you dig down to the Challenges display, sometimes displays the name of the challenge, the name of the assigned operative if there is one, and then a time counter).  This might need either larger boxes or a slightly downsized font for that part of the display.

On the Intel menu, when I 'spend' my intel to uncover a corp's asset(s), it doesn't tell me on that page which corp/company they belong to - I need to dig down in the Corp menu and look through its companies to find out where they are.  Not a major issue, but would be nice if it was visible on the Intel screen as well.

A more general point: the buttons in the menus are big and visible, which is good.  The headings for each menu item are less visible, which may not be...I tend to reflexively see the buttons as menu headings, when they actually appear at the bottom of their menu section.  Spacing might help - at the moment, there's no space gap between menu sections (e.g. in the Corporate overview of my corp, the Operative list runs straight into the Intel section which runs straight into the Missions section, with no clear boundary between the two other than the great big buttons and some all-caps text).  That might just be me, though - my eye just sees it as all one run of text with some buttons, rather than distinct sections.

Again, this is mostly just look-and-feel type stuff, which I accept is going to evolve as development goes on!  :)  Overall, as a pre-alpha prototype, I'm impressed with what I've seen.

Keep it up!  :D

Edit: one more 'early days' item I just spotted: I've seen a few operatives popping up with identical names (first and second).  A larger name list might help make this less common, but you might want to check against existing operative names and regenerate if needed - I got confused between my two Olivia Zods!  ;)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Graknorke on July 01, 2013, 05:53:24 pm

Reminds me of a flash game I played once. Except this is more polished and detailed, obviously.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: nenjin on July 01, 2013, 06:47:19 pm

Stream of consciousness post go!

Dat track picker in game. Love that.

And new music too!

(http://i.imgur.com/1xrcrKfs.png)

Couple of these are really outstanding.

Omg, sooooo many Professions to pick from! And I can see a potential scenario where each one might be useful. The list probably needs paring down, as all lists do. But man that's exciting to think about.

I applaud your headlines, they're very convincingly written.

I'm really feeling a lot of "I don't know what any of these numbers mean" at the moment.

You might want to remove the trait from the Operative description text. Some of those parse a little weird. "A Drunk master of Exploration." It might be worth it to add that stuff as its own lines. "A master of Exploration. He is Drunk and Violent."

Is there a way to outright pause the simulation, or will there ever be one? Or is it intended to kind of run real time, all the time? I'm the kind of person that really, really likes to stop time and consider all my angles, without having to worry about the clock.

Each section of a mission plan should probably try to describe, probably by tool tip, what's involved. For example, I have no idea how "Stowaway" applies to this mission I'm looking at. In fact as I mentally assemble what this mission looks like in my head...I'm sort of wondering why I need research files if my primary mission is ostensible to follow some guy. I know the goal is for the player to largely put the narrative together in their head, but a little bit of extra writing might help that along. Something like "Stash the files" as a mouseover tool tip, or "Acquire information on target."

There really need to be hotlinks on all the corp names and such so you can instantly jump back to the corp in question with one click. Perhaps any instance of a named object needs that. In a game about data, you don't want to have to menu surfing to get to where you need to go. Unless you're planning to go the dockable menu direction at some point, that'd work too.

It'd be nice, if when going through Operatives for example, if the menu remembered where you'd last left it. So if I want to scroll through my Operatives I don't have to click, scroll scroll scroll....click, scroll scroll scroll...to get to the skill section.

Totally random thought, but it'd be sweet if you could actually recolor the UI. I know blue steel is the game's color, and I'm fine with it, but it'd be neat to set the UI to another color, to reflect you or your company's personality. I don't know how easy or impractical that would be for this.

Spoiler: I'd do this, if I could (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/3L1C1s9l.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/2VGgtNRl.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/f28rJdLl.png)

I agree with the above, sorting out what's a heading within the menus is a little difficult. But I've been over some of that already, so I won't go on about it.

I'll get into actually playing the game a bit later. Suffice to say though, this already feels pretty good to muck around with. (The music does a lot for it.) With a slick UI and something going on in the background, this is going to be pretty sweet.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Neonivek on July 01, 2013, 06:54:47 pm

Dang it people, stop making me wish I was playing this right now!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Mullet Master on July 02, 2013, 12:23:09 am

I like to keep my posts on these things as simple as possible. I think the prototype is very good, you can see the outlines of greatness but they're still really fuzzy. I know this release is very much a relief to all of us who have contributed to the KS, as well as the dev.

There are a few things I really like :

Music is solid, as expected. Slightly higher bass levels than I expected, my sub was really doing some work on a few songs.
Omnipresent ticker is cool and helps better illustrate the passage of time.
High number of skills/abilities for agents is very encouraging - it looks like this is going to be a complex game.

And, most of all - this game really has a "flow" to it. You get into a groove, get an idea of what you want to do and execute. There's constantly some pressure to continue acting as you watch your company's market share go up and down. You react to your competitors - some corp is doing well? They become the target. Mission taking too long? Hire more agents.... But the clock is continually ticking, and you have to be moving one way or another. I found I relied almost completely on gut instinct rather than trying to micromanage, just to keep that flow up.

That being said, I want to suggest  a couple of things since I believe they may be read by the dev here. 

1) Please evaluate how money is displayed and used. At the current time... it's not very clear to me as a player what is going on with it. I get that a certain amount of minimalism is required, but this seems like a major feature that is too minimal. Here's my line of thinking :

"Does an agent cost $15 salary? Is that per day? Is that per year? Will investing in a new asset cost $50 one time and pay off once per year? What is this unbalanced market share thing? How do multiple companies have >50% market share ( I know it is because they are in different sectors, but what are the sectors?)"

I think it would be better to break it up into a profit/loss sort of thing, do a real basic income statement with a time value, such as :

Spoiler: basic suggestion (click to show/hide)

Weekly Summary :
Income from Business Operations : 100
Operating Costs of Businesses : -60
Agent Salary : -20
Other expenses :  0
Total : +20/week

Since most missions take roughly a week, it seems like the week is the most valid time unit to me.

2) There are too few operative names, even for a limited prototype. This has a very negative impact on playability. Please increase the size of the name database and maybe make a unique identifier (such as a nickname, a corp ID number, or something ) "John Smith 441" would be preferable to having several agents in the list with the same name or nearly the same name. I mean, it could fit in the game world very easy - biometric data is used to identify someone that works for your corp since a name isn't very useful. Maybe a genetic sequence "checksum"?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: nenjin on July 02, 2013, 12:29:18 am

I on the other hand don't go for concise posts :P The below turned in to a giant ramble, but here's my TLDR.

-Y so many mandatory plots per mission? Half would get the point across I think.
-Choice of plots is cool, but also too broad/not explained well enough.
-No outcomes for most of this stuff makes it hard to judge the impact it has.

Played around with it a little bit more.

Quote

5) It does not appear possible to fail a mission step without screwing up ALL sub-aspects.  For example there was a hacking segment that had 3 parts.  Hacking, Cracking and Data Flow.  Failing two out of the three was not sufficient to cause any additional mission parameters to get added and the entire segment was marked as "passed."

This. Which I assume cuts to the heart of the prototype, there's not a lot of outcomes for what you do. I noticed my corp's share increase 20%, and my bankroll increased significantly after completing the mission already in progress.

But I didn't see anything change with the Operatives. I watched a not-hacker repeatedly fail at hacking challenges and their vitals didn't go anywhere. (I assume what's intended to happen is failing those missions makes them take damage, making it harder for them to succeed at later challenges without gear.)

Which leads me to the math of it all. I like it. I didn't make sense at first when I was reading the description on the KS, but now I got it. So everyone rolls their base stat (I assume their current value) against the challenge, and adds in the value they get from skills, trying to beat the challenge rating. If they fall short, they spend gear points to make up the difference. My not-hacker blew through 6 gear in 2 plots (6 challenges). So that's where getting safehouses together to refill would be. You'd send one team on a mission to create a safehouse, and then make a one of the plots in your other mission to be rearming and refueling.

It all makes more sense when you start plotting your own missions. Missions have a set number of plots that need to happen. You choose each plot type, which opens up the actual plots, which are collections of 3 challenges.

Here's where it starts to get a little shaky. While it's fairly obvious what you're doing (you build missions toward your ideal team's strong points), you have the option of running like shootouts and ambushes during your investigation missions.

It's kind of Hollywood meets practical logistics and planning, and that's cool. But in a way some of it feels like overkill. There are 27 individual challenges that need to be passed for a mission in the prototype, that's about 6 challenge per team member. Which isn't bad, but there's a lot of places to fail, and even succeeding it's kind of like....is it done yet? I'm not the kind of person who likes to play games with the ultrafast button pressed, so I'm hoping that's not the default way the game should be played for expediency.

Bearing in mind this is the prototype, I'll speak to what I can see now. I think fewer, harder challenges are more appealing than a ton of easier challenges. While challenges in the full game will include critical moments, that's not necessarily a good thing either. That all builds up until it doesn't scale at all. See Dominions 3 late game for an example of that.

Re: Plot choices. I have two thoughts here. One is that I think there's a disconnect between the highly tactical, information-based mission choices, like "Research Files" or "Investigate the scene", and action-oriented ones like "Alley Chase!" or "Building Chase!" The logic of it sounds funny to me. Like everyone sat around in the briefing room at HQ and said "Alright, so in phase 8 you plan to get chased through a building by security? Sounds like a plan."

That stuff reads more like critical moments, reactions to stuff that happens.

And that's my second thought, is that there's no real feel for consequences right now, probably because most of them aren't in. What does it mean to these series of missions you've strung together, where you failed to hack the 2nd Alarm Bypass? What will it mean? Is that where the heat comes from? Is it just Operatives losing HP, making future challenges in the mission harder? Can a mission fail because one of these critical components was failed, not because you ran out of numbers, but because it's built not to succeed without x things happening at least y times? Will rewards be variable based on the # of successful plots, the specific plots succeeded at or will it just be 5/8 plots passed, here's the reward?

Let me put it this way. If I'm running a mission, and because I fail at bypassing 1 alarm, 1 building chase and 1 hack security test...I either generically do or not complete the mission, that makes it seem like there's no weight or real point to the plots you choose to run. For example. The last plot point in this Investigation mission I'm looking at right now is "Gain Intel (Spy)". Its choices are (ignoring the duplicates) "Investigate the scene" and "Tail Person". If I succeeded at that plot, but not most of the others, would I fail the mission? Either way there's a disconnect and it kind of mucks up the illusion. Elaborate plots can't succeed when either the beginning or ending parts of them fail. You kind of want an explanation of what happened. "He failed to hack the system and get the info." "Oh so they failed then." "No they successfully got the intel." "How?" "Good question." The plots seem to imply they should be weighted, like getting into the area you're running the plot in, or bypassing one alarm, carries less weight than actually acquiring the intel.

Consequences is what will ultimately make all this tick, and right now the prototype doesn't really have a lot of that. But in the final game, I hope there's reasons beyond thematic (I ran an all spy plot and seduce someone, because it's cool) and practical (I have no good hackers and bunch of sneaks, I'll run a stealth plot) for which kind of plot you choose, and how they play out. I'd imagine, once everything is hooked up, that action-based plots would be the most dangerous, because failing those would hurt your body score. But what about the outcomes of failing other plots? What's being reduced to 0 Integrity or Acuity or Agility mean for a character? Because that is ultimately driven by what kind of plot you'd pick. Would some mission choices generate less heat, pass or fail? Result in different kinds of critical events?

Anyways, what I really like is the options and potential to meticulously arrange all this stuff, from hiring the right person to choosing the plots with the best chances of success, to choosing the right member of the team to do it. But I hope all those options are tempered by some common sense, the mission at hand and most of all: consequences for the stuff you're doing. That's what will I think makes the plots feel more than just containers for the skill rolls you'll be making.

Parting thoughts:

-Must...detach..windows...ugnh....I get what the layering system is supposed to be now after fooling with it and stacking some open windows. But part of me wants to be able to go to the Operatives page without having to go through the main menu first. It's not a huge deal, but something to consider for the full game.

-It would be swell if there was a directory we could dump music to so the game would play it along side the game music. Don't know if that's within the scope of your software or what.

-I like how game looks running in a maximized window, it's a cool effect.

-Need to have a readable log of pass/fail rolls, they're lost to the void. Since completed missions seem to be kept in your game log, it shouldn't be hard to preserve the skill rolls made either. (So we can follow the trail of what happened to our operatives back.)

-I will feel the need for a lot of updated numbers and notifications to really be on top of what's happening. If the goal is to run multiple missions with multiple teams simultaneously, that's a lot to keep track of. So I'm thinking stuff like, statistics being colored green for a period of time after they increase or red when they decrease. Screen notifications of when Operatives' vital stats his 0. Notifications of rewards for completing missions, or perhaps large swings in your corp's market share/stock price.

-I didn't not expect to here some jazz in here. It was a nice surprise.

-As I sit back and think about running missions against other corps, I think about all the data I want coming back to me without me having to look for it. Things like, soandso completed some sidework, a mission was run against the corp, operative x left your employ, stuff like that. I almost feel like the player needs a personal news ticker just for their operations, once they're up and running.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: gimlet on July 02, 2013, 04:17:23 am

Overall first impression - pretty cool so far!  But the interface makes running multiple teams really really tedious.

WOW it's hard to do much damage to a corp after a while, even running 2 intel teams + 2 steal teams constantly against one corp, I'm not making ANY progress at reducing the total # of assets it owns, and only a tiny ding to the market share over time.    I had run a few missions then let the game run for a bit, to see how/when the finance #'s change and what other corps would do.  So this was against the biggest enemy corp with 40% market share and about 18 assets in his sub-companies.  6 cycles of missions did knock his market share down about 5%, for whatever that did :D 

But holy crap keeping track of people is crazy, if I could wish for one thing it'd be a way to keep teams together  (It's not TOO awful if you get into a rhythym, and hire everybody for a team together.  Then just make a new mission immediately when one finishes, so there's only 1 team of idle guys and it's easy to assign.  OR if multiples finish, then just remember "1st 6 guys is team 1, next 5 is team 2 - a big argument for picking a standard team size).   Also they could build up loyalty to other repeat team-mates, possibly causing problems/morale loss/mass defections if one of their close mates switches loyalties...

The 2nd would be to change names, so I could then name the team leader/members something to give me at least a hint on their specialty.  I settled into teams of 5-6 and they seem to be cranking through Intel/Steal missions steadily, hacker+spy+brawler+sniper+manager+something.   I'd actually be fine doing this in the save game or something (when savegame works heh) instead of having you burn time on interface stuff instead of gameplay.

Team history/stats would be cool/handy - one place to look to see losses, injuries, maybe top 5-10 failures on tasks, list of failures from last mission, stat gains, griping, gossip, whatever :D   The way I'd see myself playing is keeping teams together, MAYBE assigning floating assets for a specific mission if it's out of their normal expertise or somebody is in hospital - so anything that facilitates this would be a + in my book, like simple ways to assign an entire team to a mission.  (shift click on team member?  Or an interface that only shows teams/leaders but can expand to show individual members under a leader, say).   

Anyway I had fun for a couple hours, and look forward to future releases!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: ScriptWolf on July 02, 2013, 01:07:23 pm

i would really love to play a downloaded the game but when i opened the game i just could not get past the interface it for me was really blurry ( im running 24" HDMI screens ) although i am blind :P and it just gave me a really bad headache, i think i will have to wait a bit for the next update :P

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: ank on July 02, 2013, 03:43:20 pm

Quote from: nenjin on July 02, 2013, 12:29:18 am

-I didn't not expect to here some jazz in here. It was a nice surprise.

You must have gotten pretty tired by then...

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Zangi on July 02, 2013, 10:45:54 pm

Main thoughts so far:

1. Sam Squad... ahoy!  (Needs more names.  Needs way to assign 'nicknames'.)
2. Hackers, where art though?    (They seem to be 'required', given the number of hacking jobs that need be done.  I do not have any.)
2a. Oh right, I have a budget, buy hacker first thing.  (Game should either start with hacker or some guide should tell you that you need one.)
3. Who are you again? (Is what I think when I just look at operative names in the list.  I like that during job fidgeting, you can at least see their job archetype...)

Bug: Cancelling out of mission after picking personal and assigning jobs, locks the operatives in preparation limbo.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: sparkbolt on July 06, 2013, 02:38:00 pm

Now the backers are included, there are many more names to choose from, and code names just got implemented today!
You can go to the manage circles menu to recruit specific profiles like hackers - which right now are overpowered due to the bias towards their plots.
When you plan a mission you can choose the plots, and can see right there how good your team is at the challenges involved.

I have no idea why it would be blurry, seeing as there's literally no filtering on the textures - which is why the font looks worse than it should, as well. problem being the pixel art stuff is ruined by filtering while the text is ruined without it, and having them on different atlases causes all sorts of new problems. im still working on a solution.

Teams were supposed to be built for specific missions, but I might make a "standing" team thing.

operative history is sort-of-tracked on the backend, and that's growing. the ops have a "dossier" class with all that info that I'll be opening up more of over time.

missions are objective based: your team is trying to get to the target and do its thing, and if needed get back home to deliver it. any other plots come up based on what they need to do that: move through enemy territory and gain access to restricted areas, mainly. if they fail, they have to first deal with any consequences for failure (such as exposure to security), then either try again or find another plot.

good to know about the bass. I thought it was just my speakers. Ill let the sound guy know.

Noted on budget displays. as said above, anything that's still shown as a simple label is probably up for an overhaul at some point. Budget will be replaced with pretty graphs and numbers!

The thing w/ professions is you'll start to see there are some "staple" runners: hackers, detectives, gunners, thieves, conmen... and the "specialists" that you bring on for specific plots Once the plots and challenge generation become more diverse they will really start to shine.

Time stops for no man! Though there are very few things that work on the "real time" level, so you'll usually have more than enough time to do whatever you need. Though some critical events might have that timer counting down...

Actually the idea is that eventually the interface will be "themed" with your corps colours and logo!

Actually, the ticker already does have generated headlines. you'll recognize them by the stale "Asset #X was Stolen/Destroyed!"... but that method call will pull from premade headlines with parse-text in em to take the reported data, so things like new/stolen/destroyed assets, missions gone wrong(and public), and so on will be reported. There's a (not fully implemented) priority system to sort the story-less filler, story filler that can be opened to show the longer story, reports on gamechanging things (wars, new corps, etc), and news relevant to the player's actions.

that challenge box being too small wasn't actually supposed to be in that build :P damned unity kept resetting my prefabs even though I changed the size and committed 5 times. it finally seems to be "holding" though :P

Still need a proper mission log being built... but priorities.

As for everything else, it's either a bug to be fixed (cancelled missions trapping ops is already fixed), tied to balancing issues which is going to take some time to work out, or simply a placeholder that is still being developed (e.g. those escape/shootout plots are now only coming up when your team is escaping/fighting. you don't "plan" shootouts like that).

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: ScriptWolf on July 18, 2013, 02:34:11 pm

Anyone else just get gifted the prototype on desura from spark? Ate you stalking me now spark ? xD

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: sparkbolt on July 18, 2013, 02:45:46 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on July 18, 2013, 02:34:11 pm

Anyone else just get gifted the prototype on desura from spark? Ate you stalking me now spark ? xD

Were you a backer/paypaller? The invites for that just went out! All the $20+ backers got it.
Sadly, the new builds haven't been approved yet!!! They're just sitting on there waiting for the aussie desura guys to wake up and hopefully authorize today.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: nenjin on July 18, 2013, 03:09:24 pm

Just so we're clear: future updates to the prototype will be through Desura only?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: sparkbolt on July 18, 2013, 03:13:34 pm

Quote from: nenjin on July 18, 2013, 03:09:24 pm

Just so we're clear: future updates to the prototype will be through Desura only?

Until we get on other platforms!

Keep in mind, you don't actually need to have the desura client to download the game! You can pull "standalone" builds straight from the website, so it's the same as hosting them on any other website or source. However, these are updated less frequently than the client build which will automatically update as we roll them out.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: nenjin on July 18, 2013, 03:22:01 pm

Oh ok. Wasn't sure if you were going to pull down the website since Desura was available. Cool.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: sparkbolt on July 18, 2013, 03:24:38 pm

Which website? The only links to the new builds will be on Desura, but you'll be able to jsut download them from their website directly is what I'm sayin'.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: nenjin on July 18, 2013, 03:33:33 pm

I was talking the web address for the initial prototype download, ie. levelzerogames.us6.list-manage ect....I see it's still up, but basically you won't be sending updated versions to that DL location?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Draco18s on July 18, 2013, 03:33:47 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on July 18, 2013, 02:34:11 pm

Anyone else just get gifted the prototype on desura from spark? Ate you stalking me now spark ? xD

I did.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: sparkbolt on July 18, 2013, 03:48:48 pm

Quote from: nenjin on July 18, 2013, 03:33:33 pm

I was talking the web address for the initial prototype download, ie. levelzerogames.us6.list-manage ect....I see it's still up, but basically you won't be sending updated versions to that DL location?

ah no, those'll be coming down. but you can just point to desura's download page for the game instead :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Zangi on July 18, 2013, 03:53:22 pm

Huh, apparently I have a Desura account.  I don't remember making one.  Got the thing though.  Going to give the prototype a go today.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: sparkbolt on July 18, 2013, 03:54:56 pm

Quote from: Zangi on July 18, 2013, 03:53:22 pm

Huh, apparently I have a Desura account.  I don't remember making one.  Got the thing though.  Going to give the prototype a go today.

the one on there is old, though... I'll be making an announcement on the Kickstarter/fb/etc when the new builds are approved!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Draco18s on July 18, 2013, 03:55:17 pm

Quote from: Zangi on July 18, 2013, 03:53:22 pm

Huh, apparently I have a Desura account.  I don't remember making one.  Got the thing though.  Going to give the prototype a go today.

I said that once upon a time too (not that long ago, 3 months?).

I even had a non-free game registered to my name.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype released
Post by: Zangi on July 18, 2013, 05:20:52 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on July 18, 2013, 03:54:56 pm

Quote from: Zangi on July 18, 2013, 03:53:22 pm

Huh, apparently I have a Desura account.  I don't remember making one.  Got the thing though.  Going to give the prototype a go today.

the one on there is old, though... I'll be making an announcement on the Kickstarter/fb/etc when the new builds are approved!

Ah... no wonder it didn't look any different.
EDIT:Just noticed Desura has an update and I found my old direct download links in my e-mail.  Is the direct download links from that updated?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: sparkbolt on July 18, 2013, 08:24:09 pm

New builds are authorized! The download link isn't updated and will shortly be disabled, but you can find a download link on the desura site

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 18, 2013, 08:49:34 pm

Spoiler: Dude! (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/JDPUIbLl.jpg)

Was not expecting all this! I know you just dropped a static image in there but man, it feels so right, so much more believable.

Lots of little new things I'm seeing. Time to business!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 18, 2013, 09:00:22 pm

What happened to the nationality of Operatives in their description? "Lucie Huet is a Gunner from Southeast Asia." Yanked and to be included in their dossier file? I kind of like it there somewhere I could see it immediately. Name + Nationality + Profession = a very quick, complete sketch of a character in one pane.

Also, are code names in this build? By code names do you mean the names they earn, or the ones we can set? Found it under the Orders Menu. But I can't seem to click in the field?

I like how much snappier and responsive the UI feels, and how quickly the larger menus scroll. Might even be a touch too fast.

What do the numbers next to a corps name (in the planning menu) mean? [56] Arcology Corporation.

I take it "The Department" under the budget is the Broker's Operation? Any chance we could rename that? (Sort of name your own working group.)

A randomize checkbox for for the track list would be sweet.

I like that you can see what a hireable op's profession is right under their name. Lets you know exactly what you're looking at. I really appreciate the way you're starting to organize information around what's really important.

Whats the order/color of the bars mean on the operative panel?

What's the estimated final music track count?

LOVE the new Mission Menus. What you're saying about specialists came across loud and clear when I saw that. That's all very helpful and much appreciated. Everything totally clicks now that it's color coded. It's a little confusing at first how an Operative gets autofilled for all roles, making you think Operatives can't be assigned to the individual parts of a plot element. But they can! Seriously, good work.

The memos are sweet, that's pretty much what I want out of a message system.

And a most important question....save files? Is that a ways off in your implementation? I feel like the game is at a point now where I would enjoy running with the same corp for a while. Forget version incompatibility or w/e, what's stopping me most from playing the prototype is knowing I have to start over when I shut off my PC.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: sparkbolt on July 18, 2013, 09:53:58 pm

Codenames were broken by one of the last bugs I fixed today, I'm making a hotfix to put up tonight/tomorrow!

edit: already fixed codenames, and a closing proposal detail thing, and added profile names to team assignment stuff, and some other stuff I already forgot...

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 18, 2013, 10:35:11 pm

Wow, so I wanted consequences, well, I got 'em.

Sent a team in to steal an Asset I'd uncovered through Intel. The job was a mix of hacking and, unfortunately, disguise work and intimidation/social skills. I had the right people for most roles, a hacker, a spy, a thief and a strongmanwoman, but was relying on raw stats to get me through some of the sections with questionable success rates.

Well, that lasted all of one test before I blew it, and went into a new mission, and proceeded to blow all those challenges too after rolling poorly and using all my gear. Another new mission appeared, what I assume was my team trying to get their asses out of there. Sadly, that failed too.

Net Result: My whole team captured in Russia (of course Russia), being interrogated and finally attacked and killed. FAIL.

----

So the new mission interruption thing is awesome! Consequences are awesome! Unfortunately trying to compress time, I missed a lot of the individual actions there. The game really should slow down to normal time whenever something "bad" happens.

I like how you see the interrogators of your Operatives squaring off against them. I can't honestly see how you win those encounters though? There's 4 of them vs. one Operative at a time, and they have all the gear in the world to spend on tests. I guess what I'm asking is, what are the good outcomes if any for you in an interrogation? If it's a foregone conclusion that your guys will eventually be worn down to the nub....

There should be some kind of soft ding when you get a new memo.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: pedrousz on July 18, 2013, 11:25:47 pm

I love the idea and I'm looking forward for the next updates about the game but something is giving me some worries

I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THIS FONT  :o  :o  :o

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: vagel7 on July 19, 2013, 05:39:39 am

How much will this game be going for when it is released?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 19, 2013, 09:45:53 am

Quote from: vagel7 on July 19, 2013, 05:39:39 am

How much will this game be going for when it is released?

I believe his target price is $10 to $15.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: Knave on July 19, 2013, 09:49:32 am

Quote from: nenjin on July 19, 2013, 09:45:53 am

Quote from: vagel7 on July 19, 2013, 05:39:39 am

How much will this game be going for when it is released?

I believe his target price is $10 to $15.

Hmm, backers had to pay 20. So I'd imagine it wouldn't be less than that.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: hemmingjay on July 19, 2013, 09:49:55 am

Sparkbolt,
I backed it at the persona level and put my name in, but shouldn't I also be able to have a nickname?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 19, 2013, 11:22:54 am

So I noticed (fixed) code names overwrite the Operative's actual name.

Any chance that the Operative's true name could still show somewhere on their Operative panel? I know screen realestate is at a premium, but since we don't have the dossiers yet, I feel like that's info we should still have available to us.

Other than that, yay code names! Also I see the Operative nationality is back in place. Sweet.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 20, 2013, 04:58:00 am

Alright, I've had a goodly amount of time to play the prototype. Here's my thoughts.

-Top of my list: the fluctuations in The Department's budget don't make a lot of sense. I get Intel on a rival corp, my budget goes up. I steal an asset (that's not related to any of my corp's industries), my budget goes down. I've done six missions now and the results are pretty repeatable. (Any asset I get is pretty much automatically stolen back from me a day later. Something not yet done I assume.) Anyways, the notification for it shows up in the news ticker....that's really something that should be a memo with a date/time stamp. I see the value and profits of other corps change too, sometimes dramatically (one went from +$62 to +$162 in just a day; I should know, it's the company whose assets I've been stealing and destroying this whole time!) I figure, there's probably a lot to the wider economic simulation that's either a placeholder or still pretty rough.

-Somewhat related to that, the reward structure for what you're doing needs to be made more clear. At a bare minimum, a memo saying "Slush fund credited on this date" would help the player figure out on average what they're getting for doing certain kinds of missions, or the relationship between what they do, their companies profits and their budget.

-Somewhat related to THAT, when do you basically get your money in your slush fund? After the completion of a mission? After a certain date? I'd think it should come in on a daily basis, weekly at the most. Otherwise you're in the beginning you're stuck in the position of having to do missions to get anywhere, hire any new Operatives or replenish the slush fund.

-Following THAT, your success at the beginning is pretty dependent on your company's starting position. Without enough room in your budget to hire at least one new Operative (three seems to be the minimum you need to get through most missions safely), those first missions are just ugly. Some possibly being red at several points. How plots are set up right now, the Hacker is essential, the Spy is useful and Gunner is specialized at best, possibly only offering one or two better raw stat rolls than the others.

-Mask, Spy, Hacker has gotten me through most missions without problems (there were a couple tight squeezes because there's so many disciplines under the Net School. So often my Spy is getting picked to do computer jobs just based on his raw ability (even though the Hacker has the same capability. Probably just sorting by something else because their skills are the same value.) I just added a Gymnast which seems to have rounded out all my needs. She almost blew it on her first mission, on the final task! Took all her gear to save the roll. Between those 4 I can find almost all ideal plot choices (All the Net stuff, Disguise, Stealth, Deceit, Gymnastics, Athletics. The occasional odd ball Command or Meele or Brawl there's always someone with a 6 skill and gear. That doesn't cut it for all challenges, but it does 90% of them. I've now got a team of six Operatives and can see the appeal of building a large team that covers everything from science to killin' folks to flying your planes and choppers.

-The question for me is, will it come down to preference or necessity? I'd love nothing more than to have 30 people in my employ who are useful and have a purpose, to have that be a worthy goal of game play. But for that to happen, I kind of need the game to say "You need a pilot for this!" rather than me going "You know my pilot has been sitting around doing nothing. I'm going to arbitrarily pick a piloting plot." With all the long term gameplay mechanics like Operative development, varying difficulty levels, heat and such not in game yet, it's probably too early to fret about this. But being that I can only judge that I have in front of me right now....it feels a little bit too much like once you hit the ideal set up, you coast. Like maybe the missions need to demand more variety out of you, encourage you to try different things. If I know that x,y and z are always going to be viable plots choices, then my reasons for doing a,b and c are purely to see the text that says they're doing something, not because it's a game mechanic and it's drawing me in.

-And that really comes down to how plots are generated. Are they a static landscape? "GRU Enterprises always has Athletics/Gymnastics plots available." Is it based on the Intel that's generated? Is it based off the Asset, does it get a list of randomly generated plots when it's created? How, why and when plots are actually set for missions is going to be a big part of the game of how the game plays I think. If your plot options are like a static landscape that is generated when you create your game (and changes a bit over time as new things appear and others disappear), I think that makes for the best kind of simulation. You gradually explore the Net Gain landscape You get to know what sorts of plots work against company x in game y. That's in contrast to "You generated Intel against Asset A, it's generated Plots B,C,D,E,G, even though it's at Company W, which you've raided like 4 times." Or in contrast to "You always get plots your agents think they can do, even if they're not going to succeed at them."

-I know that's a little contradictory but bear with me. To me plots and missions vs. companies and assets cuts to the mental image you build of the game space. It's randomness vs. static choices, variety vs. familiarity. There's definitely pros and cons to both. Randomness keeps things fresh, can require you to do new and risky things. But it can make what you're doing feel arbitrary (which is what usually kills simulations for me because it spoils the illusion that there's something deeper going on.) On the other hand, static choices give you an actual mental landscape you can familiarize yourself with, set goals and challenges in. But it can leave you in a spot where all your options suck.

-Here's an example. Say you want to Steal a Railway (Industrial) Asset. That's like, heavy machinery. Would it make more sense for Heavy Industry Assets to always require some sort of transportation Plot for the final act? Like requiring Move (Helicopter) or (Auto), whereas many plots currently offer hacking/spy for most of the final objectives. That's kind of what I mean about a your mental image of the game space. In order to build this story in your head of your operatives doing stuff, you want a certain logical consistency in place to help. I suppose you could rationalize that your hacker reprograms the asset to transport itself to your HQ...but my brain thinks "Nah, you either have to drive it out yourself or airlift it out." I think assets generating a specific lists of plots you can use against them gets you the best of both worlds, randomness and static. You get a game space where things aren't arbitrary, where you get variety that you is FOUND rather than GENERATED and the world isn't a pure sandbox where what you choose to do ultimately doesn't matter. Anyways, that's enough rambling about that. That's just me weighing what I'll find most fun in the kind of simulation this is shaping up to be.

-It'd be nice if during the planning phase of a mission it told you where the target location is, who it belongs to, ect....I spent a lot of time digging through the corp/company/ menus trying to figure out what belongs to who. Again, trying to build that mental image with all the available data points as conveniently located as possible. And again knowing that i'm the guy complaining about crowding.

-Revealed Assets on the Intel page should go under the corp it belongs to.

-I think time skip rate of } }} and }}} could stand to be halved. At the very least I feel like there's a big gap between } and }},

-Codes names don't update to the mission lists, which I figure is just a feature extension thing not done yet. Makes for confusion though when the codename overwrites any visible record of the Operative's name, trying to remember which op the codename belongs to. Still, big ups on the codenames, I like trying to think up of an interesting name based on the all the data points of Gender, Nationality, Profession and Traits. I honestly am getting DF/LCS levels of enjoyment out of it. So well done.

-I'd love if STATISTICS on the Operative page were displayed as a colored, depleting bar with the number inside.

-I really look forward to gear being spec'd out. Right now it's sort of your "wiggle room" on Missions but it's completely generalized. Once Gear exists as an actual thing Operatives equip, that relate to specific challenges and not just everything, players will feel more strongly about the roles their Operatives play due to customization, and plots won't be quite so easy to fudge your rolls on!

-Operatives need some sort of cooldown time after they've done a mission. Not too long, but like 4 or 5 hours at least where they can't do missions.

-Scouting New Operatives should do one of two things: Either we need to be able to preview the Operative before we pay money to scout them, just like when you hire an Operative, or after they're scouted they need to go into our pool of potential operatives so we can hire them later. Maybe it's a bug, maybe it's an oversight, but I hired a Coder thinking I'd get "Net: Cracking" and instead I got "Net: Utilities" and when I backed out, she wasn't available as a character in my list for hire. So that's $20 basically gambled away, either due to randomness or not knowing what Professions offer what.

-I feel like I want Assets to try to describe themselves a bit better. "Thing/Category" is a little bland, or maybe the description needs to be more focused. Some are fine. Instead of maybe "Bank Asset/Bank" it could be "Loan Title/Bank". Instead of "Airport Asset/Airport" it'd be "Airport Deed/Airport", "Eminent Domain Loophole/Loophole" instead of "Loophole Asset/Loophole." Again, *holds up hand* prototype.

-I hired an Operative (after Scouting them) and they showed as a "Retainer" for a while rather than a "Hired Operative." Then later they became a Hired Operative. What's that about?

Well, I think that's it for now. Really enjoying this build, and I can't wait for more features to be implemented.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: ScriptWolf on July 21, 2013, 12:28:35 pm

ok now that i have played this game without it make me feel sick i can say even in its early stage i fucking love it!. Im so eager for the next updates and what this will be like it the future keep it up spark!!!!!

in fact is it still possible to add another $100 to my pledge ?

I also agree with Nenjin  I really hope you do also take into consideration our opinions spark haah :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: hemmingjay on July 21, 2013, 12:34:38 pm

I agree with EVERYTHING Nenjin wrote above. I think it's all very good constructive criticism and I would also love for it to be addressed.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: Zangi on July 21, 2013, 12:50:38 pm

Via Paypal I think ScriptWolf.

Question: 
What is the Challenge: ---% under operative name supposed to be?

As for the Corporation and 'you'...  are you just a Johnson within the Corp or some high up Manager/CEO?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: ScriptWolf on July 21, 2013, 12:55:08 pm

Quote from: Zangi on July 21, 2013, 12:50:38 pm

As for the Corporation and 'you'...  are you just a Johnson within the Corp or some high up Manager/CEO?

oh oh this one i know !

Due to us unlocking one of the stretch goals this has been expanded a lot. We are brokers within the company sort of like high level managers of deniable operations, When you first start the game you are a junior broker having little power within the company and just doing small operations as time goes on you compete with other brokers within your company for promotions and pay rises so you can go from junior broker to broker then to senior broker ect... ( this is late development stuff though )

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: Zangi on July 21, 2013, 01:09:04 pm

Ah, thanks for the answer, I ask cause apparently you can sell off assets, create new ones and expand capacity... which implies that you are way more then just a broker.  The corporation could be bigger then just the 3 sub-companies I suppose...

The budget you get, is it partially coming from your 3 sub-companies?  As in the corporation takes a huge cut, before operation expenses and what is left is yours?  Needs more budget data... >.>

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: ScriptWolf on July 21, 2013, 01:43:28 pm

Well how I think of it is that brokers are sort of like high management and can "suggest" things that might help the company and influence it in that way. So when your selling a asset your taking to the CEO of that company saying that it would be beneficial to sell that asset.

Also this is still sort of early so later on when your own company is fleshed out and you start as a junior broker you may not be able to do anything other than manage your team until you have more political power within your company.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 21, 2013, 04:24:49 pm

Quote

The budget you get, is it partially coming from your 3 sub-companies?  As in the corporation takes a huge cut, before operation expenses and what is left is yours?  Needs more budget data... >.>

SB actually just put up a small explanatory video of gameplay a day or so ago: http://youtu.be/i3M9KOTPprY

Here's how I understand it:

Assets have Value. This Value starts low, goes high, then drops low again until it hits zero.

Assets are owned by Companies. Companies have Infrastructure which governs how many Assets they can hold. Companies also have Overhead.

Sum(Asset Value) - Overhead = Company Value.

Sum(Company Value) = Corporation Profit.

Your budget is Corporation Profit/2. So when you think about it, your corp is actually investing A TON of resources into you.

That's also why it's unclear to me why my budget fell when I acquired stolen assets. Could have just been timing, of owned assets depreciating in value? Maybe. (Every time though?) Since held assets aren't said to contribute their value (since they're not installed with a Company), they shouldn't have any effect on budget at all.

Which brings to me a suggestion* actually: held Assets should have value and contribute to your Corp's wealth, and their value should depreciate over time while held. This is what my brain expected when I stole my first Asset. I figured it would add, even incrementally, something to my Corporation's holdings and power.

Consider it like this. Warner Brothers acquires the rights to Predator 3, a movie/entertainment/media Asset. Hollywood is a twitter about what they will do with it, how well it will play among geriatric fans of action sci-fi movies, blah blah blah. WB's stock swells with potential value. But the Asset is shelved (perhaps because WB doesn't have enough studios with Infrastructure to handle a project like that (gamey reason) or they can't find a director (narrative justification)), and Predator 3 stays as a held Asset for a long, long time. Buzz for the movie dies down as people expect the project to never see the light of day, and the value of the movie's raw potential diminishes. By the time WB does release Predator 3: Obligatory Subtitle, its value is 1/10th of what it could have been because now people are jaded and cynical, and the internet has had a field day with Predator memes.

All held Assets should work that way IMO. If an Asset is held, it should provide like 1/10th of its undeveloped value to the corp's power rating or budget. This value depreciates at a slower rate than normal Asset depreciation. When it bottoms out, it stays there as a near worthless Asset. When the Asset IS finally implemented, it's value range is greatly diminished. (So say it's value range was 5 - 80 before, now it's 1 - 25.)

You can apply this logic to all kinds of Assets. Industrial equipment becomes crapified and outdated if it sits too long in a warehouse. Legislation carries less weight when new legislation counters or supersedes what it was going to do. Computer programs get one-up'd when they're stuck in development hell forever. Professional staff ages or loses their edge sitting around doing nothing. Trends don't take if people can only talk about them for years instead of embrace them. Where would Kickstarter be compared to IndieGoGo, had it launched now instead of when it did?

My reasoning is this: there's only one thing of value I can see right now to stealing Assets of other companies: it hurts their bottomline. Which is great. But those Assets feel dead in your hands afterward (just there to be stolen.) I get there's currently no way to expand into new markets or give held Assets to owned companies, which is what those Assets will eventually be used for. But if an Asset doesn't affect the Corp's budget until something can be done with them, I feel like you don't get a pay off for having done your job.

Sure, your Ops will get experience, but they'll spend Gear too and that will eat into your Slush Fund (once Gear actually starts costing you money.) Things could go horribly wrong too, for an Asset your Corp will just sit on with zero impact on YOUR budget. A poor risk/reward calculation. And it just feels weird that in this highly active and competitive economic simulation, these Assets which are actual things and people and ideas just go into an economic black box after disappearing from the market. Their value to the market place shouldn't become frozen simply because they're inactive. Their value is relative to when the idea/thing/product/person was hatched in the global arms race that is BUSINESS. Downtime is badtime. (My boss is a bit of an entrepreneur so I'm exposed to some of this thinking at work.)

Or, to put it another way. You can't steal the idea for a wearable prophylactic before it hits the market, then release it 30 years later after someone else came up with birth control and expect your product to take the market by storm.

There's balance reasons why you'd want this too. Player steals Assets for 4 hours real time and hoards them. Player then spends the next 4 hours deploying these Assets through new and old Companies, and their profits skyrocket, requiring them to do nothing as a broker because it's just profit from here on out. Player becomes top of the food chain and is bored.

As I understand it, held Assets will either actively or automatically be given to Companies to use right? With how fast you can run Missions vs. how fast Assets depreciate, you can basically create a Fort Knox of business ideas and always have your Companies filled to the brim. Plus Companies develop new Assets on their own, don't they? (Truly, Asset depreciation and the time skip button are what will determine game pacing from the player's perspective.) The only way you counteract hoarding held Assets being a boring and too effective strategy is to start the clock on depreciation as soon as the Asset comes into the player's hands. This prevents the player from really hoarding (and therefore trivializing) Assets because the real money is being able to deploy Assets quickly so their real value comes out. The rate of depreciation while held shouldn't be too onerous otherwise I personally would feel a little too stressed out (and would get annoyed I can't just make my Corp start a new Company and enter a new Market). But depreciation should definitely be aggressive enough that hoarding held Assets you can steal faster than you can implement is wasteful.

And that cuts to a much smaller topic I'll broach...there's got to be a reason to destroy an Asset vs. steal it. Because from an economic standpoint, I can't see one. Will Steal Missions be significantly longer/more specialized than Destroy Missions? I'd think the difference in the amount of heat generated (stealthy missions vs. guns blazing) would also be a reason to not do destroy missions. A long, quieter mission in my mind is still better than one with short-term, more leath mission with potential long-term repercussions. Destroying an Asset ultimately contributes nothing to your budget at a great deal of risk to your Operatives. So why do it?

Some random questions now that I wrote all that.

-Corporations owning more than 3 companies? Are corps going to have the equivalent of an Infrastructure rating as well? Will that be within the scope of the player's control?

-Missions other than Investigate, against Companies themselves rather their than Assets? For example, Missions to destroy their Infrastructure Rating so they're forced to sell off Assets? Hostile takeovers of Companies? (literally and otherwise)

-So all the data we can see for the other Corps at the start of the game, that's basically our current Intel on them? Does Intel on Corps depreciate just like Intel on Assets do? The concept of Intel perhaps is not explained well enough yet due to the early nature of the UI, how other corporation panels are basically identical in look to your own and still allow you to fiddle with all their buttons. At least I know what all the "[number] Corp name" stuff means now though. Personally, I don't know if I need to see that number next to the corp name everywhere. I think it'd be visually easier (maybe) if the corp name in menus was color-coded based on the "freshness" of the Intel. Gray = Old Intel, Bright White = Current Intel.

And an idea for an event that just struck me: being headhunted by a more powerful corp! Say the game can track some metric of success (perhaps each Corp expects certain growth out of the player's Corp over time, the value being based on one of the rival Corp's own internal metrics.) If the rival Corp can offer the player a higher Department budget than their current employer, it would offer the player some value between the player's current budget and the actual budget the rival Corp can support. The player could then make a counter offer, and the game could evaluate the offer and reject/accept or rebid it. And of course, the player would be able to take the Slush Fund with them ;) They'd then become of the broker of the new Corp, with all the Operatives it was using, and the player's old Corp would get a new broker, using all the player's old Operatives against them!

Hrm, now that I mention all that...should we really be able to see a Corp's power rating and income value without any Intel on them? Are there, like, government filings, financial reporting to shareohlders and tax declarations these ultramega corps have to release? Do corps have to justify the budget of their War Department to the global tax payer? I assume because of all the Intel hiding you've talked about, you're factoring this in and we can simply see everything with no Intel decay right now in the Prototype. I'm just curious what's the absolute minimum we can know about a Corp. Market Share?

*long frickin post babbling about things that may already be in the design document, or can be summed up as "balance"

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: sparkbolt on July 21, 2013, 06:12:39 pm

I'm reading all your posts and they are fantastic, my wrists are just shot to hell and I'm trying to recover before monday! I'll get back to these posts soon, but they're very helpful!
Of note: bug tracker and feature request system is up! (http://support.levelzerogames.com/bugtracker/)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 21, 2013, 06:31:52 pm

Another thought occurs to me: we need to be able to see/know the decay rate of Assets based on their type (be that Media Assets in general, (Local) Assets, Loophole Assets, what have you.) There's way too much going on/way too many kinds of Assets for the players to infer the average decay rates of stuff relative to each other UNLESS the difference in the decay rates is huge (and fast decay rates I imagine will be a problem in this.)

Perhaps a final average of the Decay Rate across all the factors, stated on the Asset. Or abstracted like "Depreciation: Mild/Average/Severe" I suppose if things that decay faster have a higher overall value (so it actually returns appreciable value before becoming worthless), we can infer that information too. But I'd still prefer something I read quickly in a list format, that isn't comparing Values of different Assets over time to figure it out.

Perhaps Assets could display their rate of decay and their current value state. (Unless that's covered by "Growth: %"?)

Also, guys that are Master of something in a school should honestly have at least a 1 in the other relevant parts of that school. So my Spy doesn't keep getting stuck with Cracking jobs. Or maybe the bonus to tests within a school isn't being properly applied/isn't implemented.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: BlindKitty on July 22, 2013, 10:52:26 am

Actually, I can find a number of reasons to go on Destroy missions instead of Steal missions; most of those have something to do with less generic assets, however. To use your own example, heavy machinery might be much harder to steal, than to destroy, especially if we consider sabotage a destruction of assets (a rather reasonable assumption, I think) - tampering with complicated machinery sounds like easier way to accomplish a goal than ordering heavy duty airlifting chopper to appear in the middle of the enemy base. ;) Other reason might be getting overloaded with assets (to avoid putting too much infrastructure into companies that are expendable). Yet another might be industry competition - for example, if you are investing in railroads, you have no use in airport deed - but you are interested in there being no airport at all, or at least no major player owning it. It's just from top of my head. :) But I'm actually impressed by your post, and I agree with it mostly. :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 22, 2013, 11:03:55 am

Sure but that's all in the realm of theory and/or imagination. There's no real easy way to compare the difficulty of steal vs. destroy missions atm.

And again, it's all about the cost benefit analysis to me. If Destroy/Sabotage Missions generate more heat and involve more lethal plots, I'm FAR less likely to destroy them when stealing them, while longer and possibly more complicated, requiring better Operatives, possibly results in fewer causalities AND puts something of economic value back in my hands. The economic motivation of acquiring more assets for use is always going to seem more worth it to me than simply depriving my competition of them. And if destroying/sabotaging assets is by necessity made easier so there's a point to doing it...that strikes me as a failing of balancing objectives.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 22, 2013, 01:59:04 pm

Small thing I noticed.

I've got the game installed on a Samsung laptop, playing music while I work. And I notice whenever I load webpages, the music starts getting really choppy/static-y/pop-y. I can't imagine what resources the two are using together other than memory, but I figured I'd mention it. Doesn't seem to do it with your average forum page, but loading CNN it starts crackling like a SOB.

Maybe it's one of the media plug-ins both the game and the site use.

Huh. And now it stopped doing it. Oh well, probably just my crappy laptop + Firefox + a bazillion open tabs.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: sparkbolt on July 24, 2013, 02:31:02 am

Birthday Build is live! Catch a video recap of the new build content (http://youtu.be/t-KSuEShKgg). This isn't the next BIG build, just a lil' timely bump!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: sparkbolt on July 25, 2013, 11:21:27 am

Nenjin, et al, maybe we could do a community google hangouts thing where I can go through forum stuff and field some questions? save my wrists and be a bit more face-to-face :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: ScriptWolf on July 25, 2013, 01:24:14 pm

love the new update finally my eyes wont be damaged anymore ! also i love the teams but i don't really like not being able to assign individual operatives to a mission as well as a team i think we should be able to assign teams and individual ops who are unassigned and in teams as well

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: sparkbolt on July 25, 2013, 03:23:04 pm

you can assign individual operatives: specialists "attach" to the team for that mission only. Ops can only be in one team at a time, or else things get messy(messier, that is).

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 25, 2013, 05:23:25 pm

Massive ups on the new font. The game already looks much cleaner for it. And custom fonts in the future! I always appreciate when a game lets me do that.

Yeah, I'd like to do a google hangout sometime, if only so you can explain the deeper mechanics for the future. Playing the Prototype, every time I have new questions about how things will work, how they could work better, ect....so yeah. I'd be down for that.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype update
Post by: nenjin on July 27, 2013, 03:49:41 pm

Alright, here I go again. I say most of this SB expecting that if what I'm thinking wasn't already thought of, now the bug is in your head:

-Operatives should start with their skill in native language. I've got a bunch of Africans who are worse at their native (generally speaking) tongue than an Asian women from Russia.

-You can't view Operative details when they're on a mission.

-Nice work on the memo about assets. Makes more sense now.

-There's seemingly going to be a disconnect between being a Broker, and issuing corp-wide orders. The further the prototype comes along, the more it seems like our control over companies and the corp increases. Is that something that's just going to be hand-waved or....I mean, it's cool to have control. But it logically doesn't meet up with what our stated role in the corp is. Maybe it's just waiting on the corp personalities to be put in.

-I think you need to work more with font size. While I get some of the font makes that impractical because it gets illegible the smaller it gets, with the newer font it looks like it will scale better. A lot of the subtext information could stand to be one or two points smaller to aid in visual organization.

-Operative Code Names could and should be added as a new line at the top of the Operative panel, right above their real name.

-So I guess there ar two levels of failure that generate new challenges? I got one that put a challenge in amongst the ones I've was already doing. Then on a different failure I got a whole new set of plots that was a Car Chase.

-It works that the names on the title bars of unplanned/planned plots change once you've set a plan. But I think a slight visual cue (color would work but a check mark seems thematic) would help, especially if you plan a whole plot then go back through and change your mind, cancel some plots but not others, ect....

-Target Company name should be stated on the left most panel during a mission. You can see all that stuff during the planning stage but not during execution.

-Code names vs. real names not being consistent in use yet (already mentioned)

-Team renaming. Just the word on the left side of the // marks. Can go above or under Disband Team on the Team Management Panel.

-Is the time per mission plot eventually going to be varied? It takes the same amount of time to go to your local corp headquarters as it does to fly from Central North America to Eastern Europe. I think all plots take the same amount of time too. (Conflicts happen in much shorter periods of time.) I figure no plot should take less than an hour, and no travel should take more than a day. Movement in cities should take somewhere between one and three hours, and it should be consistent based on the location. (I figure it takes longer to get around in Hong Kong or Beijing than in Seattle or Chicago or even New York.)

-Really do need color coding information about what stats are what. I like the aggregated team strength bars but it needs that color relationship explained so it sinks in.

-It'd be a neat twist if sold assets had to go to one of the other corporations in game. A sort of trade off and problem for stealing stuff from everyone and selling it. Plus, it'd be hilarious to ransom a corp's own assets back to them. That would also sort of imply that there should be a market for purchasable assets, if other corps are sitting on used assets themselves.

-I got a grim satisfaction out of watching a rvial corp's market share plunge after I stole an asset from them and put their budget in the red. Ironically, my market share fell though. I suppose because other companies rush to fill the void left behind and diffuse the market share?

-Developing assets you initiate don't seem to ever develop?

-A place to see what assets are viable for which Group(Subgroup) of Company. Is a Financials(Vehicle) Asset usable by a Financials(Investment) company, who only have Financials(Bank Asset)s? Also makes the need for new company formation and acquisition pretty apparent.

-It's not immediately clear what separates a Specialist from a regular Op. Number of schools and skills? Point value in their given schools and skills? Types of skills?

-$$ value of hiring an Operative or Specialist could be shown on the Operative button, to the right of the Operative name. Could be color coded to show whether you can afford them or not. I assume at some point, scouting different classes of Operatives and Specialists is going to have different costs, just like their Salary is varied. That's kind of why I want the Salaries shown on the Operative hire button too.

-I failed the first Blades Test of an Close Assassination test, and immediately went into a blend in test, so I can circle around and try again. THAT's what I'm talking about! That's me seeing the mission and the kind of "This equals this equals that equals oh shit" that makes these plots feel like they have action even though they're just dice rolls you have no real control over. It will be even better when random events are in. (Ended up failing another part and going into a pitched battle where my whole team was eventually slaughtered.)

-When shit hits the fan, those dice rolls become really important. I think they almost justify showing up as window on their own off to the right, once you're been CAUGHT. Because there's no running log of these challenges, you need to be able to see both the timers and the results side by side. Or....the whole challenges window needs to be longer.

-Now that I've had a chance to really dig into combat, wow, it's so crunchy and awesome. The log needs slightly better descriptions, it's hard to tell who is attacking who and who is dodging what. You can kinda put all that together from other information, but that involves a lot of pause/go so you have time to arrange the info. A column presentation of combat data in the combat log would help a lot I think. Might improve the regular plot logs as well.

-Are you always going to be confronted by combat operatives when you screw up on missions, or are corps just set right now with all combat ops or...? When I screwed up, I was faced with two Brawlers and two Duelists. Specialists in their fields. I mean, on the one hand, facing professionals when you fuck up encourages you to use large teams so you have combat support when things wrong. On the other, I had 5 ops, only a strongman and a gunner honestly trained for combat, and they all died while while we barely managed to hurt one of the other operatives (who seemed to heal in the middle of the fight....) If all other corps have both operational teams and defensive teams (like all corps respond with randomly generated goons to defend their stuff) at the start of the game....we need to start with more Operatives, because the price of failure is enormous. Big combats for potential failures require big teams which requires lots of money.....you see where I'm going with this. I think it's cool, personally, if other Corps have to make due with the Ops they have just like you do. Scientists in fire fights, actors punching people in the face, quirky stories like that. Otherwise....you're basically need 6+ Operatives to adequately and safely go after an objective. If your own corp is defending against attacks with teams of random security mooks....yeah.

-Going to ramble here a bit. So if the conflict that result from a failed mission are based on the plot type......that's something you can plan for. It seems like failed social plots result in interrogations, and combat-based plots result in fire fights. So knowing that, the player could plan ahead for the kinds of teams they need to build. Social plots need people to defend against Interrogation (whatever that is), combat plots need adequate fighting backup. But there's all kinds of plots mixed in with each mission so....this is all stuff that's discovered by exploration of the game, but it's enormously complex to explain in a decent way and balance. What exactly are Operatives attacking/defending with in combat? Because the numbers I saw were very low (0 - 3) in some cases. Skills should honestly factor into those calculations as well, so you have a wider range of results. That will, however, exacerbate the problem of Operatives being completely outclassed when they fuck up and get caught, requiring even more careful planning of fallback Operatives. Tests during conflicts should also weight toward Operatives most likely to beat them. Otherwise it's completely arbitrary whether bringing combat support Ops will help you when things go wrong. You still want some chance that your Artist will have to dodge bullets and be hurt in the chaos of a fight, or have to throw punches themselves....How deterministic combat is will have a large impact on how much control players feel they have over missions. Up until that point challenges are a known quantity...once combat starts though, who is doing what, why and what their chances of success are, are all very murky.

-Based on the above, I have to say I'm DROOLING at the prospect of cross-training all my operatives in some combat capacity. That just sounds awesome.

-I think everyone needs to start with a little bit more right now. The margins everywhere are pretty slim. You're one bad run away from completely screwed, and other corps are one run away from going in the red. Larger starting budgets to mess with would help people be able to cover their bases better. The more variety there are in available plot types, the more flexible the player needs to be at the start of the game to be able to progress. I'd say you need to able to retain at least 7 to 8 ops to be able to roll with most of the punches.

-We should be able to abort missions while it's still within our power to do so. Aborting a mission would cancel the current plot (or require it to complete) before starting a new mission called "Extraction". What kinds of things required to extract would be based on security and heat and whether or not the Ops had been exposed yet. Once they're "caught", Extraction is impossible.

-Heat values, when relevant, need to be shown somewhere on the mission panels. Perhaps colored based on whether it has changed recently, red for up, green for down.

-An idea for support missions: Distraction missions to throw the heat off of the actual Operatives and their plots.

-It seems like raising the department budget is a really slow process while getting money into the slush fund (getting paid your budget) is a quicker form of wealth generation. There needs to be some clarity on the issue for the player's sake. For example, Intel should do something to your budget. Is Intel an Asset corps can factor into their power rating, or something they can claim holds a dollar value, so it can be passed on to the broker in the form of a higher budget? Does getting intel mean you get a payday? When is payday? All these questions and their answers are important to how players proceed with their Operations.

I added some of the more coherent requests to the bug tracker.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1
Post by: nenjin on July 28, 2013, 02:41:06 am

Liking the new Intel menu (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151667996933449&set=a.10150671712518449.417010.121193388448&type=1&theater). Although I'm a little fuzzy on what Associations actually means. I know it's a catch all term for activity but....maybe activity is better? Associations to me implies less things like "who is attacking me" and more "who do I work with, associate with." Will that allow us to directly target companies and asset for intel collection instead of relying on investigating random assets of a corp?

Can you not have more than three assets revealed right now? After uncovering some additional assets, it never showed up in my list of potential targets.

Are Operatives eventually going to learn new skills by doing things at which they are unskilled, as a result of what you have them do in missions? Is there any "learning by doing" plans, outside of training?

Asset depreciation seems pretty punishing right now. I keep running into yellow dead ends where there's too great a chance of running out of gear. As my Assets keep falling in value, my budget starts tanking hardcore. You end up caught between a rock and a hard place, needing useful assets to boost your budget back up. At this point, I've played a game for several in game months (I think I was just in to the start of September.) About 2 hours. I had 7 Operatives, a budget of $95/$54, and it seems like after every two missions or so, my budget would tank another $20. Assets I told companies to develop didn't seem to be doing anything. Seemed to be spiraling downward...although I didn't notice Operatives going away or the slush fund dropping by rapid amounts. (Although it did seem to be nudging downward.) Meanwhile, I had about 5 held assets just doing nuthin.'

I've found the gameplay cycle, but I wrestling with the long-term economics at this point because the thing that drives the game forward, your budget, is so hard to keep up. And this is running missions back to back (can't run more than one at a time, because you can't afford two hackers, two spys, two faces, two masks, ect...)

I know at some point you have to take risks, but right now my calculation is "If a Yellow Mission potentially requires more gear to complete the tasks than is available to my Ops, I won't run it." And that, surprisingly, shuts out a lot of options, because a lot of niche things like science plots or surgery plots or business plots or pilot plots end up costing you, potentially, 6 gear per Op for that plot. So you end up blindly collecting Intel on random corps where the demands are within Gear tolerances, and stealing random assets that you can't put to use. It'll be even worse when gear has to be bought and applies to specific tests instead of everything. Many opportunities will be locked behind the "need a new guy" barrier. And like I said above, failing missions means really bad consequences. I have yet to build a team in the prototype that has survived them. Other things like the other Operative features will mitigate this to some degree.

Net gain clearly isn't an easy game to balance. But if the prototype dead ends after several in game months (probably an hour if you speed through as much of it as you can), it'll be hard to judge the long-term efficacy of things. The budget/slushfund/economy stuff really needs to be stable so things like save games have a purpose.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1
Post by: sparkbolt on July 29, 2013, 12:37:38 am

Please excuse any typos. it's late and I'm using a voice-to-text thing thats giving me sass

It's *really* difficult to balance missions/conflicts/failure/budgets/economy right now because there are still huge chunks of the game missing, so prematurely "balancing" without all the information isn't very feasible. There's a pretty large aspect of the economy (corporate ranks, conglomerates) that - while missing - means all the corps are on one field when they really shouldn't be. I'm hoping to do another pass on economy after this current pass on intel/missions/operations is done, then another pass on teams/conflicts to make those more engaging and - well, fair. might actually put this in before then: corps will have specific response teams, instead of [team-1] challengers of just=the=right profile. the problem is adding a corpsec response team with hackers/etc is a bit silly until the proper support attacks code is in place. actually prototyping out the next pass for conflicts this weekend: each side has a skirmish, flanks, and support section, so where you assign members determines how you're running the fight; screening for your hacker ops to wreak havoc on their systems, risking your guys in flanking to try and take out the rivals, or just going toe to toe...

Loving your feedback, as always! a lot of things I'm definitely considering!

Associations actually wouldn't be shown on the Intel menu until revealed. You see when you get Intel on something, you can then use that Intel to uncover one of its associations. This currently happening in the hard coded form of spending Corp Intel to gain Intel on an asset. How this actually works is you gain Intel on a public item (like a Corp), or something you've already uncovered. Then you can "burn" that Intel to attempt to uncover things it is associated with: for a corporation, this means assets, operatives, teams, etc. This also means if you the Intel on an asset, you can burn that to learn more about the company holding it, the team that's stealing it, etc.

You should be able to have more than three assets, there's no hard coded limits.

Yes operatives learn by making tests (the code is there, but it's not currently implemented), they learn more from the dangerous an intense challenges in the field, or they can train up by making "safe" tests at base.

The economy needs a lot of finagling still. Right now it looks like assets are going to have a larger range of value, so individual assets can be more potent. The the budget should be growing with the corporations power, but it's a bit difficult because they also spend that to improve the companies, which increases their expenses, which means they can't afford a higher budget... Once the economy stabilizes and corporations are appropriately growing and shrinking, the budgets will appropriately grow and shrink as well. As is currently could be doing very well, and the budget will drop because your company - doing so well - invested a bunch in infrastructure and has nothing left to pay you!

The language skills aren't quite what you think they are: everyone's chipped to speak the most common languages! language skills are specifically a combination of etiquette and cultural understanding. But yes, their generation should be a bit less random... But so should a lot of skills. That'll come in the next profile refactor.

I'm thinking of adding a pane on the right side that slides into view when you click on a button, like a tool tip, but a full pane that is the details menu for whatever the item is. I just need to reconsider the menus that are already a bit wide, like planning missions.

The corporate-wide orders are only still included because the rest of the features aren't, and I thought I'd give people something else to play with. Those orders will be locked, though you can gain influence within the corp to execute those orders.

Fonts really don't scale well, so I need to pick a size. Any smaller and it's a bit eligible.

Code name/real name stuff does still need work.

When you fail a challenge, you have a 50% chance of "recovering" the challenge, and getting to try it again with their rank reduced by your previous success. If you can't recover or fail a recovery, it fails to an escape or if already an escape, to a conflict.

Timers will be varied. Those aggregate strength bars for the teams aren't actually working yet. That's something Morgan is making this week.

Bought and sold assets are going to be on a shared market.

Assets should be developing regardless of who gives the order. They currently only update every week , though.

There's no such thing as a financials(vehicle) asset!(?) Acquiring and forming companies is in the next economic iteration.

A specialist - as the term is currently use in the game - is just an operative who is temporarily assigned to a team for that one mission. That all will change once actual specialists - who aren't on retainer, only working on that one mission than leaving for a fee - are included.

I'm going to be making different " menu states" for the buttons, so they'll show the pertinent information for each (e.g. Salaries listed in the hiring menu)

I've been accruing a lot of the problems in the currents conflicts, and will be addressing them on the next iteration. What's going on should be much better presented.

Skills are factoring in the conflicts: there is a set of specific skills that are used in a fight, and each turn the operative is given a set of three skills on that list, and they choose the one they're best at... if any. If you have a fight, and the operative isn't a fighter, they'll just be going off their raw stat. I'm really looking forward to next conflict iteration, where fighters and support will shine.

Aborting missions were supposed to make it in, but I forgot to include in the last build!

Heat has been disabled until the interface is ready to communicate to the player what is going on: currently they would just start seeing new plots pop up with no idea what went wrong.

Filling out the slush fund is easy, but given the whole point of it is to find and hire operatives, it doesn't actually mean anything on its own. That, and once I start doing the "Cap iteration", then if you just sit back and collect a bunch of money in the slush fund without actually doing anything with it, the corporation will start dipping into your fund to use on other expenses! " well if you're not going to use it, we will!"

Intel does nothing to the budget, it is a means to an end: stealing assets, which helps the Corp, which helps the budget.

I noticed the thing with the music too... Not quite sure what's going on there. You should submit a formal bug report!

Right now there's no difference between steal/destroy... But eventually destroying will be easier, since once you commit your sabotage, your team can bleed back into the shadows. Stealing requires getting in the objective back to base which can bring up its own perils, depending on what you're trying to smuggle across the borders.

There's always a delicate balance of giving too much information on the economy, and intentionally burying some of it. The broker should be seen enough to understand what's going on, but not get pulled into it, since I want their focus to be more on operatives and missions.

Yes, assets are the backbones of missions, but I have every intention of extending them to interact with all "iTargetables", including destroying infrastructure, or directly stealing wealth from other corporations, or inciting chaos in enemy territory, etc.

I'm erring on showing too much rather than too little; as Intel continues to be fleshed out, more of the rival information will be hidden - needing Intel to expose it. Of course some information will always be public.

I put in those memo alerts specifically because of your posts! :D

I do still need to address team size, but that comes in the next mission/conflict iteration. Basically the different form of tests, so we need to make a stealth tests, the * entire team* needs to pass the test. Sneaky operatives can help their friends, but it's still a risk.

Mission/Plot variety and balance still needs work, though it got more diverse in the last build... but it got a bit TOO diverse, bit too random. balancing acts :P

The plots you have available are based on the objective and target, with more granularity up as the system develops. For example when you steal an asset, that happens to be a politician, then you can choose if you'll try to bribe him, coerce him, convince hinm, blackmail him, etc. It'll give proposals that makes sense for that target. This another pass on plot tags I have to make that'll make them much better.

[Few more things her the right up to thee I've implemented ;)]

I want to make a time slider, complete with a drop down where you can tag different events that you want it to slow down for.

Operatives do need a recovery and cool down and breaks, don't know when they'll get implemented though.

Scouting operatives got a bit Borked, but as getting replaced with a rudimentary circles pass fairly soon.

Whew!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1
Post by: Zangi on July 29, 2013, 03:28:47 am

Is there a point/benefit to investigate uncovered assets?

How often is gear replenished?  Will you be able to replenish gear for operatives at your expense?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1
Post by: sparkbolt on July 29, 2013, 10:06:11 am

Investigating assets isn't useful until this next build is out.
gear is replenished for free during the mission briefing, part of assumed operating costs

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1
Post by: nenjin on July 29, 2013, 02:05:13 pm

Delicious developer feedback omnomnom.

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corps will have specific response teams, instead of [team-1] challengers of just=the=right profile. the problem is adding a corpsec response team with hackers/etc is a bit silly until the proper support attacks code is in place. actually prototyping out the next pass for conflicts this weekend: each side has a skirmish, flanks, and support section, so where you assign members determines how you're running the fight; screening for your hacker ops to wreak havoc on their systems, risking your guys in flanking to try and take out the rivals, or just going toe to toe...

So we're going to be able to strategize during conflicts? That'll be pretty neat.

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Associations actually wouldn't be shown on the Intel menu until revealed. You see when you get Intel on something, you can then use that Intel to uncover one of its associations. This currently happening in the hard coded form of spending Corp Intel to gain Intel on an asset. How this actually works is you gain Intel on a public item (like a Corp), or something you've already uncovered. Then you can "burn" that Intel to attempt to uncover things it is associated with: for a corporation, this means assets, operatives, teams, etc. This also means if you the Intel on an asset, you can burn that to learn more about the company holding it, the team that's stealing it, etc.

So the process goes like: Gather intel on the corp. Burn intel to learn something about that corp. Gather intel on the thing you learned about, to learn about the thing? I like it, it's a layered system.

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The economy needs a lot of finagling still. Right now it looks like assets are going to have a larger range of value, so individual assets can be more potent. The the budget should be growing with the corporations power, but it's a bit difficult because they also spend that to improve the companies, which increases their expenses, which means they can't afford a higher budget... Once the economy stabilizes and corporations are appropriately growing and shrinking, the budgets will appropriately grow and shrink as well. As is currently could be doing very well, and the budget will drop because your company - doing so well - invested a bunch in infrastructure and has nothing left to pay you!

Filling out the slush fund is easy, but given the whole point of it is to find and hire operatives, it doesn't actually mean anything on its own. That, and once I start doing the "Cap iteration", then if you just sit back and collect a bunch of money in the slush fund without actually doing anything with it, the corporation will start dipping into your fund to use on other expenses! " well if you're not going to use it, we will!"

This should REALLY come down to a corp's personality. Perhaps the corp's appetite for risk determines how close to the margin they're going to run their Department. Companies that like to fly by the seat of their pants pour a large portion of their profits back into their companies, leaving them a smaller bank roll to work with, but who are always seeing their budget increase because of the amount of reinvestment. More cautious companies, on the other hand, might always want a certain amount of money on hand. Honestly, WHAT kind of corp you work for, what kind of markets (i.e. Assets) they're interested in could have a huge impact on game difficulty from the Broker's perspective. I know there's plenty of other attributes/aspects to corps not revealed yet, but their propensity for spending money probably will be a meaningful part of how tough it is for their Broker to grow the Department. Also a long-term, relatively static challenge too. Unlike Asset depreciation, which can go up or down based on the assets and where they are in their lives...the mentality of your corp is going to be a constant.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the idea of working for an AI, and having the challenges in game be as much about the position your corp leaves you in, as it is about missions. But, I see a degree of frustration in there as your corp is a) spending your budget down to nothing on projects and b) stealing out of your slush fund as it sees fit. There's a fine balance between the fun of being a minion in the control of a volatile master....and being hamstrung by your own AI to unfun degrees. While Operative growth (we'll call this horizontal growth) will certainly help the player pass the time and stay interested watching things grow.....vertical growth (more, diverse Operatives, better facilities) is where the real meat of the game is. And because game difficulty is largely tied to vertical growth (the ability to take on many diverse challenges) and less on horizontal growth (the ability of a few Operatives being able to do a few things very well)....yeah. More balancing!

Consider, once all the corp traits and behaviors are in, trying to quantify all those elements into a "difficulty" rating. Certain traits and preferences push a corp toward being harder to play than others. Then, when the player starts the game, their difficulty settings dictate what kind of corp they get. Hard difficulty would very aggressive companies that spend much of the available money around the player, gives them the most directives and generally is the most active. Easier difficulties would be the corps that are more reserved, work on slower, long-term growth and maintain higher margins on their budgets so the player can be more flexible (or overpowered). There definitely needs to be an "easy mode" just so the player can understand the game as a sandbox and all the things that are moving sand in it.

Net Gain is, in a sense, starting to remind me of Sim City 2000. A pretty awesome simulation that, because of all the factors involved it's very easy to back yourself into a corner. I would always start a pretty basic city with the standard features (power plant, police and fire station, ect...) and start a period of growth, then begin to spiral downward until I couldn't keep my budget up.

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The language skills aren't quite what you think they are: everyone's chipped to speak the most common languages! language skills are specifically a combination of etiquette and cultural understanding. But yes, their generation should be a bit less random... But so should a lot of skills. That'll come in the next profile refactor.

I hear you. But I still feel like someone from Africa should have at least a 1 in Languages, being that they lived there and have likely experienced some of this cultural etiquette. Or to put it another way, I don't see how having more Acuity or Integrity helps you figure out the mores and etiquette of places you've never been, in a do-or-die moment. Because seriously, an Asian woman from Russia understands even the basics of African culture better than Operatives who lived in Africa? Just seems like a disconnect. Might be better to rename that school to something like "Culture" and make Language/Etiquette separate skills (or one?). Might make it a little clearer to the player what's actually going on. The rationale that everyone can speak all the basic languages isn't really explained anywhere (although it's totally reasonable.)

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I'm thinking of adding a pane on the right side that slides into view when you click on a button, like a tool tip, but a full pane that is the details menu for whatever the item is. I just need to reconsider the menus that are already a bit wide, like planning missions.

Is there a problem with floating text boxes, or are you aesthetically just not interested in doing them? I'm ok with a slide out box, but I do find mouse over tool tips the easiest. You see an element of the UI you don't understand or you want more specifics, you point at it, it explains itself. I find that preferable to a box that tries to explain every element of a screen. Either way I'll live, it's just my preference.

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When you fail a challenge, you have a 50% chance of "recovering" the challenge, and getting to try it again with their rank reduced by your previous success. If you can't recover or fail a recovery, it fails to an escape or if already an escape, to a conflict.

Ah ok. I suppose a mission log will make what happens a little clearer.

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Timers will be varied. Bought and sold assets are going to be on a shared market. Acquiring and forming companies is in the next economic iteration.

Yay to all that! Corps not developing new companies does, for me, kind of bottleneck the game. It'll be nice to deploy those stolen assets to new companies.

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There's no such thing as a financials(vehicle) asset!(?)

Not having a save game I can't show you, but I swear that's what it was. On the other hand, it's entirely possible I got confused, seeing as there are actually 3 levels between Companies and their Assets that you have to keep straight! The Market, the Type and the actual thing!

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Assets should be developing regardless of who gives the order. They currently only update every week , though.

Ah. That's probably why it appeared to not do anything. The thing is with Net Gain right now...the timing of the budget cycle isn't clear. Which has been the basis for a lot of economic confusion. I mean, the principle is sound. Get Assets, Install Assets, Make Megabucks. (What IS the unit of denomination in Net Gain anyways? $1 = $100,000 e-dollars?) Are things generally done in Net Gain by the week?

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Fonts really don't scale well, so I need to pick a size. Any smaller and it's a bit eligible.

I'm not harping on you but that does seem like a pretty big limitation. At least, to me, size is a pretty potent element of contrast. And I think everything being the same font size in Net Gain continues to contribute to readability. Then again, I am a certified font nerd.

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Skills are factoring in the conflicts: there is a set of specific skills that are used in a fight, and each turn the operative is given a set of three skills on that list, and they choose the one they're best at... if any. If you have a fight, and the operative isn't a fighter, they'll just be going off their raw stat. I'm really looking forward to next conflict iteration, where fighters and support will shine.

Ah ok.  That would explain the low rolls I was seeing. So what's "Recovered 2 Agility!" about in combat? I was pleased to see that until I noticed corpsec healing HP!

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A specialist - as the term is currently use in the game - is just an operative who is temporarily assigned to a team for that one mission. That all will change once actual specialists - who aren't on retainer, only working on that one mission than leaving for a fee - are included.

This makes much more sense now.

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Intel does nothing to the budget, it is a means to an end: stealing assets, which helps the Corp, which helps the budget.

I get that. But this is 2043! Information is power. Intel should have a real world dollar value, to both your corp and the larger world. While I get that, functionally, it doesn't work that way (Intel is just allowing you to know things are going on in real time), thematically that should be worth something. I think I may be barking up the wrong tree since Intel is viewed as a pool instead of as an asset or thing. But part of me craves the ability to sell intel, be an information broker and make money that way. Imagine, for the future, two rival corps that hate each other, and your Department runs Investigate missions against both, selling Intel on the targets to their worst enemies, eventually bringing them both down and profiting from the whole enterprise on THEIR dime.

On a more down to earth level, Intel being worth something financially means you're effectively not always in a race to get the next asset before your budget falls below a level you can do anything with. The concern may be rendered invalid by the fleshed out economy, maybe not.

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Right now there's no difference between steal/destroy... But eventually destroying will be easier, since once you commit your sabotage, your team can bleed back into the shadows. Stealing requires getting in the objective back to base which can bring up its own perils, depending on what you're trying to smuggle across the borders.

Easier how? Fewer actual plots to run? Fewer challenges within each plot? (I've noticed it can be as few as 3 and as many as 7 challenges per plot.) Lower challenge values to beat? Doesn't the Heat and the specter of combat make Destroy missions arguably harder? (Seeing as they get more of the shoot people/car chases/beating people up/blowing stuff up plots.) Logistically I understand and agree that Steal Missions should be "harder" in that they take longer, their objectives require more complicated things and they have different exit strategies. It's just that there are several ways Net Gain approaches the question of hard.

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There's always a delicate balance of giving too much information on the economy, and intentionally burying some of it. The broker should be seen enough to understand what's going on, but not get pulled into it, since I want their focus to be more on operatives and missions.

I'm erring on showing too much rather than too little; as Intel continues to be fleshed out, more of the rival information will be hidden - needing Intel to expose it. Of course some information will always be public.

So here's my thinking on what is public vs. private:

A corp's name, obviously, is public. Their market share is something either 3rd party analysts make it their job to decipher, or your own corporate researchers figure out, so that should be public too. Their Warchest and Income (i.e. department budget) should be deep level Intel stuff. Any of the info on their Operatives should be mid to deep level Intel too. What companies a corp owns should be publicly traded information. The value and location and industry of those companies should also be public. However, the depth of the companies' infrastructure should be low to medium level intel, and the amount of security it has because of it should be medium to deep level intel. (Assuming security isn't strictly locked to the size of a company's infrastructure. Otherwise you can infer one from the other.) Assets are kind of tricky. On the one hand, Pepsi can't hide the fact that Mnt. Dew: Blackhole is their newest and most successful product. On the other, not every military manufacturer announces the newest thing they're making to kill people. Some only quietly sell their wares to governments. So I'm torn on how assets should handle their info with regards to Intel. Can it be based on the Asset type? Can some assets reveal at a minimum their name, while others are shadow assets that you need to have Intel on to even know what they are? Just about everything else regarding assets should be private info: value, stage, even type. (Again, I'd love if that stuff is hidden or not starting out, based on what it is.)

Or will all assets be completely unknown without Intel until they are producing?

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Yes, assets are the backbones of missions, but I have every intention of extending them to interact with all "iTargetables", including destroying infrastructure, or directly stealing wealth from other corporations, or inciting chaos in enemy territory, etc.

Splendid. I look forward to just cutting out the middleman and taking money directly from a corp where I can.

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I put in those memo alerts specifically because of your posts!

Only half true. I saw there was a spot for them in some capacity in the first Kickstarter video ;)

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I do still need to address team size, but that comes in the next mission/conflict iteration. Basically the different form of tests, so we need to make a stealth tests, the * entire team* needs to pass the test. Sneaky operatives can help their friends, but it's still a risk.

Oh shit. That's both awesome and kind of scary. On the one hand, it was striking me as a little silly that my Gunner might need to pass a Longarms challenge (shoot a guy) then my Spy needs to be the one to look around see if anyone noticed. (Presence.) Guys aren't going to just sit around on mission with their thumb up their ass because they're there as back up. On the other.....the threshold for failure seems like it's going to go up because of that, by a lot. I mean, the threshold is going to be all over the place as the game moves along and new things are added, more general systems get more specific....I'll just have to wait and see. But now there is a direct trade off between more manpower and your chances of success, unless you've got an army of cloned soldiers with identical skills.

Hey. There's an idea. Cloning! :P No seriously, it's a good idea and you should consider it for high-level gameplay. There's all sorts of fun shit you could do with that.

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Mission/Plot variety and balance still needs work, though it got more diverse in the last build... but it got a bit TOO diverse, bit too random. balancing acts

Ah hah! So I'm not just crazy! I thought I was seeing missions I'd never seen come up that often. Or missions where you get the usual spread, and then the last one is something really quirky, like Science or a Backroom Surgery.

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The plots you have available are based on the objective and target, with more granularity up as the system develops. For example when you steal an asset, that happens to be a politician, then you can choose if you'll try to bribe him, coerce him, convince hinm, blackmail him, etc. It'll give proposals that makes sense for that target. This another pass on plot tags I have to make that'll make them much better.

It kind of clicked for me when I saw some missions with [NO TAG]. And I'm already seeing the plots line up. A Steal Trainer Asset already went the social route for the final plot and I was pleased to see that.

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I want to make a time slider, complete with a drop down where you can tag different events that you want it to slow down for.

Oh that will be nice. Especially when things start happening to your corp. Even though it doesn't affect you directly, it's something you need to know happened and observe the trickle down results of.

I'm gonna get all mushy for a second....seriously, I'm glad I backed this project. I've seen quite a few Kickstarters come and go now, all of them obsessed with things like graphics, stretch goals of questionable merit and end up with games that are 2 dimensional when they made us dream of 4. But Net Gain is really about the things I love: Mechanics. Relationships. Tradeoffs. Themes. Choice. Agency. Personalizing the game world. And it keeps growing these things.

I'm not an easy gamer to please. I hope big and tend to crash hard. I can't say I do that entirely on my own though, it has a lot to do with the games I put my hopes and dreams in. Most games start simple, get more complex, then get more simple as the needs of time money and design require it. Net Gain though....it's just becoming more complex as it grows towards its final product, instead of less. Or to put it another way, Net Gain is already at the place where I feel like most games would feature lock it, balance it, slap the GUI on it and go on to ship. And it's still a prototype!

I mean, I figure at some point you'll have to do that yourself: cut features for release, dial back the complexity of something when it outstrips your ability. And Net Gain is in a different position than most games because a lot of work is data-driven and under the hood. But still, of all the games I've backed on Kickstarter, I feel like this is the first one that's really in touch with just making a game, instead of making The Game^TM.

So yeah, keep trucking! You keep putting out builds and I'll keep playing them and spewing text at you. Can't wait for the next one!

Also, a suggestion. Net Gain doesn't have a huge community but that doesn't mean there isn't a talent pool to draw from.

Consider, as part of a community building effort (and to save your wrists) outsourcing some stuff. For example, put a competition out to the community to write headlines for the game.

Or, my personal favorite, a community music contest. It's dirt simple to make music these days if you've got the right software, and I've always found something to like when games have held music content contests. The game needs as many cyberpunky tracks as it can humanly have.

I'd say community art too, but there's no where to put any of it in Net Gain, now and possibly not even in the future. Corporate logos might be a thing though.

Maybe the community isn't large/engaged enough to really make it worth it....but it only really costs you something if it takes off!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout mechanics
Post by: BlindKitty on July 31, 2013, 09:53:10 am

I've got some stuff to say, but way, way less than nenjin (seriously, you eat up so much of my time with those posts! :D). And even an idea that could be interesting touch.

First, I think that the music is outsourced already, and that said, it's all made by one man (or am I wrong?) - I'm not sure if throwing in music from other people would work so well. But on the other hand, I've had an elephant dance some Irish stuff on my ears, so it doesn't bother me much. :)

Second, I have some more time now. I will play the game and I will probably have more to say soon. But from the little things I saw playing so far and judging by the posts and the updates and stuff, it's already progressing more and faster than I even hoped. Good work, that's what it is.

Third: The Idea. It was born when I read about the whole team having to pass the sneaky challenges. I have imagined the assassination mission (destroy asset: politician), where we have just two operatives: The Assassin and The Driver, who is getaway driver. So, we have a mission in several parts:
1. Get to the general vicinity of the area (The Driver does that)
2. Sneak through the security (both do that)
3. Shoot the man in the head (The Assassin does that)
4. Sneak back to the car (both do that)
5. Get out of there, fast (The Driver does that).
There is an observation: The Driver sneak through the security for no reason at all. So, if you could add one little plot point:
1a. Prepare a safehouse (The Driver does that).
And there will be another plot point later:
4a. Join the main part of the group (The Driver does that).
The mechanics would be simple: during planning phase, when we don't need certain operatives in the middle of something, we order to add a Safehouse plot. It makes part of the group hole up somewhere (relatively) safe and usually outside the inner circle of security. They can't be used by the main group, but they don't have to pass the whole-group tests, too. Because I shouldn't be taking my hacker into the battle arena if he already did his thing and opened it's doors. ;)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1
Post by: sparkbolt on July 31, 2013, 01:24:01 pm

Quote from: BlindKitty on July 31, 2013, 09:53:10 am

the music

One guy, Richie Palys. I'll probably make a folder where you can put your own music at some point, but any game music i put in the builds for everyone has to fit my pretty specific requirements.

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Third: The Idea.

Yep! at some point this is already intended to be implemented, but it's kind of difficult with how things are currently. it needs a lot of other systems before this is supported.

Quote from: nenjin on July 29, 2013, 02:05:13 pm

So we're going to be able to strategize during conflicts? That'll be pretty neat.

That's the idea! The broker is supposed to stay high level, so no direct orders kind of thing, but able to give broader strategy commands (think ogre battle kind of stuff... though not really)

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So the process goes like: Gather intel on the corp. Burn intel to learn something about that corp. Gather intel on the thing you learned about, to learn about the thing? I like it, it's a layered system.

It's the whole "connected web" theme of espionage. following leads, digging up dirt, constructing the "bigger picture", etc. is all done through intel associations.

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Economy

execs will fiddle with all those values yes. but the main goal is to have a more stable budget in the end making most of that moot. corp does better, budget gets bigger. less wild fluctuations. It is possible to back yourself into a corner, but that's pretty much the lose condition. if you mismanage resources to the point where you've crippled your own operations, that's a game over (or a transfer to a less powerful corp if you're not already on the bottom rung)

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Languages

Honestly i'm probably gonna end up changing the name. but yeah as i said the skillgen isn't very aware of anything other than the profile atm. once traits are in that'll open the door there.

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details pane vs. tooltips

the detail pane is going to be a full menu, like the current detail menus, interactive with options and etc. I *am* using tooltips, but for very different things, like: as you say, explaining what a UI element is, if that information is too dense to show otherwise. or lie currently, where it says who the loyalty % belongs to on the loyalty bar (though that's not ideal,but works atm)

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financials(vehicle) asset

So there IS one, the industry(assetType) with no sector part threw me off. the vehicle asset is part of the *insurance* sector, so it's vehicle insurance. there are a few places where the order of ind/sec/type still needs to be clearer but thats just fiddling w/ labels, etc.

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weekly budget

the numbers dont realy make sense on a daily level (op salary = 2.714285714285714), but i'm hoping to have that "weekly estimate" and then live updates for the numbers... but it'll take an overhaul on the economics to pull off proper.

the denomination of Net Gain is Σ. Power. It's the sum of wealth, funds, stocks, benefits, bribes, blackmail, tips, gifts, perks, deeds, favours, etc. factored and evaluated to an abstract number by an army of complex AIs. When you're playing at the level of Brokers, money is such a small piece of the puzzle.

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conflicts, skills, recovery

operatives can "soak" attacks with stats before the more "sensitive" ones take damage. the most literal is in combat, ops can soak attacks by burning agility (representing diving for cover, being suppressed, etc). on an ops turn, they can decide to 'recover' some stats. agility can be recovered in just one turn, representing finding better positioning, regaining footing, etc. Agility is important for attacking, but it also only takes a moment to recover your footing opposed to the trauma care needed to recover Body. they're not very smart about it atm, though. that'sa fore the next conflict iteration.

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Intel

Once missions expand outside of assets, there'll probably be an option for just tossing intel up on the market for straight Σ, but in order to do it properly that intel needs to actually get used instead of falling into a void. there are consequences to selling off intel, the least of which is your own connection to discovering it.
That way you can sell off intel you dont care about, and pursue the stuff you do.
but yeah that concern will be dealt with w/ proper budget. but selling intel is planned; definitely a core part of cyberpunk AND corporate espionage.

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destroy/steal

well one of the big things will be once associations are implemented fully: if you steal something, that corp KNOWS that asset! stealing something means they'll want to steal it back, destroy something and they don't really have that option. In theory a proper destroy mission doesn't generate heat until your team is at a safe distance... though i guess that depends on what/how you're destroying.
Also once proper package handling is implemented, smuggling whatever you stole back out of checkpoints may get harder.

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intel

intel also represents more than just knowing it exists. intel is your "in". you can know Zazz soda is in your vending machines, but it's not until you get intel that you know where and how it's manufactured, what the logistics for delivery are like, etc.

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Alerts

well of course I planned on having an alert system, I meant those specific alerts you mentioned in your post!

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team/individual tests

I preferred to think of it as your gunner taking someone out while your spy kept watch!
And that tradeoff is intentional, and the main way to limit just putting everyone on a team (besides budget): every extra person is someone else for your fighters/spies to babysit.

yep, a lot more quirky plots were put in instead of just the basics, so you might actually want to hire on one of those special profiles now and then.

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plot tags

heh, yeah that was a coincidence... but is how it's going to work, and soon. the tags are still pretty dumb and not taking asset type into account yet, that's the next mission pass thing.

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Mushy

<3

There's a reason the most popular thread for this game is on DF forums, and why i frequently mention DF: I'd love to be able to keep developing in the same fashion. If funds run out I'll have to cut features beyond what i had initially planned and wrap things up... but I'm hoping to at least get to that base level and have that be enough to bring in more people so i can continue to grow it. the game design, theme, genre, mechanics, and iterative development were *all* chosen explicitly to benefit each other. Many simulations fail because they spend time developing under the hood stuff that is fun for *programmers to make*, but not for *players to play*. with an espionage game and iterative development, I can keep adding new simulation systems that directly connect to and *expand* gameplay, by merit of the genre and mechanics being all about riding those connections and systems and turning them to your advantage. What is espionage if not uncovering parts of a simulation and bending them to your advantage :)

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Net Gain: Syndicate

From day 1 I wanted Net Gain to be powered by community contributions, and again, the game is intentionally designed to be powered by community input. It's not really in a place where it can take on too much, but that is the plan. I'm already doing what I can by asking people for headlines, plots, etc... and many of the headlines are from people's contributions already (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au4SkJrON54QdEZKbmh3Q3RRaG4tTlpSZkdyRlNvR3c&usp=sharing). I put in as many 'portals' for user content as possible: headlines, asset names/descripts, events, plots, original operatives, conspiracies (missions w/ "prescripted" plots), etc, etc.

Art is def a possibility once more of it's in... it's actually one of the leading reasons I chose a pixel style; it's accessible and fast. Now that logos are added I can start taking new logos from people as well.

right now the only problem with community input is people keep sending me parodies/ripoffs of shit that already exists instead of actual creative content. Sometimes it's okay, but not all the time: it's like if the news *only* talked about shit that happened in the 80s all the time (instead of just "too frequently", like they do now).

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout mechanics
Post by: nenjin on July 31, 2013, 04:39:44 pm

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operatives can "soak" attacks with stats before the more "sensitive" ones take damage. the most literal is in combat, ops can soak attacks by burning agility (representing diving for cover, being suppressed, etc). on an ops turn, they can decide to 'recover' some stats. agility can be recovered in just one turn, representing finding better positioning, regaining footing, etc. Agility is important for attacking, but it also only takes a moment to recover your footing opposed to the trauma care needed to recover Body. they're not very smart about it atm, though. that'sa fore the next conflict iteration.

I could have sworn corpsec was healing body in 0.4.1. I do like the use of stats to soak damage, and the recovery of stats, by say "resting behind cover" for a sec. I'd love to see that implemented in other ways, in other conflicts. So an Operative might, for example, soak an interrogation attack with body by "intimidating" their interrogator. Like a lot of mechanics in Net Gain, a human explanation of the logic behind what's going on goes a long way toward making it sensible.

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there are consequences to selling off intel, the least of which is your own connection to discovering it.

Huh. I guess it never really occurred to me that corps would care what the source of the intel (or what the intel actually is) once it went up for sale. That definitely slows down stealing assets and reselling them as an easy way to quick cash.

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well one of the big things will be once associations are implemented fully: if you steal something, that corp KNOWS that asset! stealing something means they'll want to steal it back, destroy something and they don't really have that option. In theory a proper destroy mission doesn't generate heat until your team is at a safe distance... though i guess that depends on what/how you're destroying.

Indeed. If you're destroying the data of a large financial institution, that has distinctly different implications than destroying, say, an entire manufacturing complex. Or an airport. Or the infrastructure of a large company. At some point, I reason that most acts of destruction are too large to really conceal that well for that long. Any sort of physical installation, or physical asset, that requires explosives should come with some fairly hefty heat attached IMO.

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There's a reason the most popular thread for this game is on DF forums, and why i frequently mention DF: I'd love to be able to keep developing in the same fashion.

While not everyone has the capability to continue development like Toady does....

These are the projects I want to back, that I want to see take off. Games that aren't made just so they can be released and make some cash so the developers can move to their next project, so they can make more cash; some casual platformer or what have you.

I want to back projects where their developers are making their game because they can't help it. They can't help but grow their game, iterate on their mechanics, expand their game....not because it's going to make them more money necessarily, but because they're compelled to make their creation better, broader, deeper.

And that's why I like bedroom developers who succeed. They aren't shackled by overhead, rent, salaries or running a business, and all that energy can go back into the game.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout mechanics
Post by: nenjin on August 05, 2013, 02:23:53 pm

Really liking the new loyalty displays (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151682739088449&set=a.10150671712518449.417010.121193388448&type=1&theater) and corp logos. (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151676087813449&set=a.10150671712518449.417010.121193388448&type=1&theater)

I like the presentation of the Loyalty bar. There's a few different ways you could display that data but that one is ace. Consider that the Loyalty object names could be even smaller.

On the corp logos, what immediately struck me is how better visually organized it is! Not just because the logo gives the eye something to hang on to, but because the corp name actually sits as a title, because of the colored backdrop behind it. More of that thinking for the rest of the menus, please! The color and logo are going to make finding them in a list so much easier.

Are the logos assigned? Is the end goal for corps to be all handcrafted, or is there a method for randomly generating some corps at game start?

So I had a thought. I'd really like to know what you're up to on a short, month-to-month basis. I'm by no means disappointed with your progress or feel like I'm owed a timeline. It's just kind of agonizing waiting for the next build and wondering what the next iteration is about. The Facebook posts are nice but they don't tell a lot about the overall picture of the next build.

Consider that these are the DF boards, and we love hearing about the process. Toady often writes some gnarly descriptions of mechanics, and even in his condensed short hand it can get into some complex issues. But we love reading stuff like that! 

And, if I'm honest, development from where I can see it seems to be a bit all over the place. I say that well aware I'm the one making requests and suggestions left and right.

So, while I know that wrist integrity is at a premium, I'd love a first or end-of-the-month report. Either what you've been doing, what happened, or what you plan on doing. For one, it'd help people like me see the bigger picture of development. For two, it might help you organize your development plans. For three, it can allow you to extend how long you wait until you do a release. It certainly does for Toady! Consider the value of updates to the prototype from the player's perspective. Is what's in there worth it to the player to play, or simply as proof of progress? And for four, it gives us a bit more to look forward to in each build, rather than like "Corp buttons" and "Loyalty bars!"

The bug tracker can serve this purpose but it doesn't seem like it gets a lot of love right now and it's less pointed than a paragraph or so from you. So again, I'm not pounding the table going "I need a status report yesterday Simmons!", but when it occurs to me to find out what's going on, I pop into Facebook and see a couple screens about a couple things but no real plan for what's going forward in the next few weeks. And maybe you don't want to be that vocal about what you're thinking (I get it, I'm in software meetings all the time, and some have a very deliberate attack plan for their week or w/e, and some are much more ambiguous about what they'll be doing.) And maybe the content of an update is purely graphical, or not worth talking about in your eyes. That's cool too, but even summing that up as "Focused mainly on phase 1 of the GUI, these elements:" or "Going to work on Corp entities and flesh out their traits and behaviors, set them up for long-term play" would be good.

As a fan and as a backer, it'd be nice to know what the plans for development are month-to-month. Hell, I'll even read Facebook if that's where you'll do it. :P

One final question. What's the format for corp logos, like what resolution and file format? I want to mess around with making some for fun.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout mechanics
Post by: sparkbolt on August 06, 2013, 06:54:31 pm

posted an update over on the forums! (http://forum.levelzerogames.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=805&p=1022#p1022) Think i might keep a rolling changelog on there, whenever i remember to stop coding for a minute to update it. What i'd really like is some cool two-panel thing for the netgain.levelzerogames.com that shows the short twitter updates on the topleft, the longer form forum posts/blogs/etc below that, and the static information on the right. or something along those lines, anyway...

I like how it turned out, it'll be even better once the "blurred edges" are in for those less than certain loyalties. I'm hoping to swap out the list of labels below them with just one label that updates depending on what your hovering over.

Yeah, it's all planned, it just takes time to actually implement. I'm hoping to get the operative profile icons in very soon to help with finding the people you want at a glance. If you compare what it looks like now to what it looks like even just on the initial prototype, you can see a marked improvement.

If by assigned to you mean assigned to individual corporations, yes. There is a set of premade Logos with premade colors, or they may take a logo and generate their own colors (as made evident by some very garish selections, i'm still working on that). The next step is having Logos generated a lot of various parts, for a few more abstract ones. As with most things in net gain, everything starts as generated content, with premade content being pulled in during creation.

It's difficult to talk about the next build, as I mentioned in the new forum post; what I want to include at the beginning is it necessarily will be there in the next build, as prerequisites or other such things get in the way. That said I'll probably do a summary like this forum post more often. I've been trying to mirror some of toady's semi-daily updates in the Twitter.

Development IS all over the place, that sort of how the iterative process works. Also, if I'm starting to feel burnt out, I'll tend to switch to a small shorter feature to keep me fresh. Each area gets built up with each other at a roughly equal pace.

The Logos are made of two layered transparent PNGs, a primary layer and the secondary layer. they're 16x16 blown up to 32x32. the base tone is pure white, with some "shades" down to about 50% grey.

Tell me if you can see the challengers recovering body, as that shouldn't be possible. Soaking IS implemented in the other conflicts! Integrity doesn't have a lot of associated skills, but its main strength is in soaking for both acuity and personality. It's the operative's force of will.

A lot of explaining of the mechanics will come in the next and following conflict passes, when all of the systems are implemented, and the unique GUI elements that clearly illustrate what is happening are created.

That's the core of the Intel System that's just now starting to show it's core features: Intel is connected to everything, and you can follow those threads like hunting for treasure!

All of that comes into play once plots have their "costs and consequence" systems implemented: that's the reason you might choose a plot with some of the stranger skills, because your other options might generate too much heat, or have too high a cost.

To be fair I would love to make some money off this: that'd mean I could bring on programmers and artists and focus my attentions on design and business! Plus, Health Insurance would be nice... And I'm sure Morgan would like an actual wage instead of the pittance of a stipend I can afford. Sure there's shares of future profits on the backend, but that doesn't pay rent now.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout mechanics
Post by: nenjin on August 06, 2013, 07:27:36 pm

Good post on the forums, more like that and I'll definitely make a point of visiting there more often. All of it sounds great and I want it all naow~

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Tell me if you can see the challengers recovering body, as that shouldn't be possible. Soaking IS implemented in the other conflicts! Integrity doesn't have a lot of associated skills, but its main strength is in soaking for both acuity and personality. It's the operative's force of will.

Which color is body? :P Red?

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All of that comes into play once plots have their "costs and consequence" systems implemented: that's the reason you might choose a plot with some of the stranger skills, because your other options might generate too much heat, or have too high a cost.

So missions are going to cost money to run to some degree? We talkin' fronting the air travel out of the Department budget?

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To be fair I would love to make some money off this: that'd mean I could bring on programmers and artists and focus my attentions on design and business! Plus, Health Insurance would be nice... And I'm sure Morgan would like an actual wage instead of the pittance of a stipend I can afford. Sure there's shares of future profits on the backend, but that doesn't pay rent now.

I hear you health insurance. Although I dunno...renting office space and paying salaries isn't exactly my idea of development Shangrila. Making a killing on bedroom development is XD

Also, does Save Games factor anywhere into the 'next couple of builds' plan?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: sparkbolt on August 06, 2013, 09:11:58 pm

Stat colours:
(http://i.imgur.com/RubNr83.png)
And yes those damn bars are in the reverse order... need to finagle them proper at some point.

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Costs

All sorts of costs! there are resources you can earn/collect/develop/find/win that can unlock certain plots that you can then spend them on (e.g. blackmail documents, exotic gifts, kidnapped families...), plus just abstract Power for some plots (bribes, etc). Most of the operating costs of a mission are assumed as part of the budget, but you'll need to dip into the slush fund for above-and-beyond normal circumstances.

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sweet sweet cash

I do want to have an office, I almost prematurely got one last month, but ironically hiring Morgan meant I couldn't afford the office. I already have two other programmers, designers, and writers working on other projects, so stepping up to a real office would be lovely, but the main point would be in getting enough manpower to really step things up, develop more side projects that can cross-pollinate (like Net Gain: Stories), so on.

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Save

It's a pain in the ass for a game like this, specifically. And the best solution is hopelessly bugged at the moment and the developer for it disappeared. It does need to happen, sooner rather than later, but the rest of the game has so many holes it's not a priority.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: hemmingjay on August 06, 2013, 09:47:33 pm

Just wanted to say thanks Sparkbolt. Yours was one of the riskier KS campaigns I backed and more than the game, I enjoy seeing you happy developing this. Two reasons to back KS are funding someone's dream or trying to get something for yourself cheap. You gave me both and I thank you!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: nenjin on August 17, 2013, 04:11:08 pm

Hey SB, how's the mission rewrite coming? From the sounds of it, you're struggling a little bit. Got anything you want to get off your chest?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: sparkbolt on August 17, 2013, 05:16:43 pm

Heyo! I wouldn't say struggling, just... it's a lot more than I was hoping/planning. the refactoring kinda had - well let's call it collateral damage. Catch with making a simulation is all the damn things being hooked up makes it harder to gauge refactoring.

So missions are now asynchronous, teams are now "meta" with *squads* being collections of agents in physical locations... basically enabling ocean's 11 style things where you send your most sneaky spy "deep" into security, remote hackers, having synchronized takedowns of a rival operation across the globe in the same night... fun stuff! Stuff that will still take time to fully implement, but at least the base will be there. so having multiple teams running around... AND still being able to predetermine their path... even though that path may change... and have them smart enough to adapt the plan without jsut discarding all of it.... lot's of moving parts. keeping the plan "mostly in tact" is what's taking the most time right now.

probably not going to have it done before tuesday, which means the next release window might not be till september 1st.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: nenjin on August 17, 2013, 05:37:02 pm

Wow, sounds like it's pretty involved. Sounds sweet though. The spacial/locational relationships of things and stuff sounds like it will feel a lot more tangible now. So am I correct in thinking that you'd have a hacker squad back at main base remotely hacking systems while another team is on the ground bypassing physical security, interrogating people, stealing ect.....? Will hackers ever still have to be on site to do things? Will a failed job at the physical location ever jeopardize a remote hacker in some way? (I imagine failing to remotely hack security will screw your ops on the ground as normal.)

This is really getting to the meat of some of my way early statements about how I wanted to see the Mission and Operative simulation play out. There was a necessary level of abstraction to all of it that I was worried was going to eventually be woven into the final game product. But it feels be broadening out and getting more granular, which is a relief.

So that said, take as much time as you need. Toady has the luxury of half-finishing really complex systems and coming back a year later to find they need to be gutted and rebuilt. Most don't.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: sparkbolt on August 17, 2013, 05:56:07 pm

yes and yes. that's the idea, it gives you the diffent kinds of hackers. the ones that work from base, or remotely, and the ones that have to be on the ground to access secured networks, set up relays, build servers in safehouses... and still know how to defend themselves when the shit hits the fan!

failing remotely will be handled differently, though remember thats still a feature that needs additional stuff on top of this to get running. but yes, remote failure would most often expose their location, which might mean aa hasty escape to a closer safehouse, hoping they dont intercept you before then or worse, already have a strike team in the area.

And to clarify, this isn't quite the same thing as toady's process, since we're still building up to that point. so most of these systems mentioned above are part of what's getting made, though in limited form (i.e. starting with text before art exists, etc)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: sparkbolt on August 30, 2013, 12:42:39 pm

Since a few people have been asking, I put up a forum post (http://forum.levelzerogames.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=806) explaining the logo files and a link to a PSD I use to make em!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 30, 2013, 01:08:54 pm

How are things going in general spark ? Any ideas on the next update and it's release and what your going to do next

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: Unusedname on August 30, 2013, 01:30:10 pm

Yes when can I give you my money and stop berating myself for not kickstarting this game.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: nenjin on August 30, 2013, 01:48:03 pm

Sweet. Any chance you'll have the update out in a week or two? Got some traveling coming up and I'd love to take newest build with me.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: sparkbolt on August 30, 2013, 03:51:23 pm

Things are going well! I got through the valley of darkness that was the mission refactor, and I'm on to adding some low hanging fruit features, fixing up the UI, getting the corp AI handling the new stuff, and doing a thorough bugtest of the mission changes.

Right now my plate is full with all the intel features, now that missions are behaving. This new "associations" feature means you can finally collect intel on a WIDE range of things! As in, almost anything in the game. Not all of it can be acted on, but it can all be used to uncover new associations you can act on.

For example, I can investigate a city and use that intel to dig up associations tied to it like people who are moving through there, or companies there, or squads hiding out, etc. if i uncover a person, I can either target them for a mission, or use that intel to dig up intel on their connections: who they work for, where they moved to since, what they're carrying, etc. You can use this system to basically ride along a massive connected web of information with ever-changing nodes.

Right now the only real interactions besides investigating is to steal/destroy assets, or destroy operatives/squads. it'll probably stay that way for a bit since those are the main 'chess pieces' at the moment.

I'd like to get Operations in so you can jsut set up a thing to keep puling intel, then burn that intel to uncover new things, but i don't think those'll be ready for the next build as I'd rather get it out sooner than later.

Next update definitely in a week or two, depending on how bugtesting goes and if I find some other low hanging features i'd like to implement to pad out this release, since a lot of the time was spent on backend stuff that isn't very exciting.

I got an interview with a pretty huge website, so I was hoping to get the game "release ready" and time it with that interview, but since it's gonna be a big press push I want to wait until more of the core features are in.

Actually, here's a rough of my goals if you can read my chicken scratch. (http://i.imgur.com/EmhpX80.jpg)(Oh god huge picture)
Boxes are things that are gonna be a bitch to implement, stars are things I want in before the game goes on sale/the interview.

ADD'L EDIT:
Speaking of progress, here's the new active mission menu (http://i.imgur.com/YRS5kq5.png), and an operative living in some cramped Corp Box Housing (http://i.imgur.com/Ay2yAU8.png)!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: nenjin on August 30, 2013, 06:03:30 pm

Quote

For example, I can investigate a city and use that intel to dig up associations tied to it like people who are moving through there, or companies there, or squads hiding out, etc. if i uncover a person, I can either target them for a mission, or use that intel to dig up intel on their connections: who they work for, where they moved to since, what they're carrying, etc. You can use this system to basically ride along a massive connected web of information with ever-changing nodes.

So what is the current basic unit of Intel? I mean, can we just launch ourselves straight at corps to collect intel to start with? Or do we have to start with cities, reveal Ops and Companies before we can get mission targets? Having absolutely nothing, where does the intel trail start?

Very pleased to hear you're getting to the press out there, the battle for public awareness arguably did not end after the Kickstarter. Was unhappy to see Net Gain didn't make the last batch of Greenlight approvals, but given how big the Q is, I guess it's not a surprise.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. Talkin' bout da future
Post by: sparkbolt on August 30, 2013, 09:03:41 pm

some items are "public" and can always be investigated: these are cities, regions, and corporations.

actually they found me! I'm committing to working on the game until the next press push which is the public launch, they just found me before I started that round of PR. Netgain is nowhere near greenlight approved, we have barely any attention compared to just about every other thing. Not expecting much more until we get public on Desura, really.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 10:10:18 am

New build, hooray!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: gimlet on September 04, 2013, 11:11:46 am

Darn it, starting it through Desura still gets me 0.4.1 even if I re-verify files.  Is there some option I'm not seeing to get it to update?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 11:21:32 am

No, I'm having the same problem. I'm wondering if SB is still futzing around with the upload to Desura.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: sparkbolt on September 04, 2013, 11:39:30 am

Er, no new build yet. Think he just meant yay new build coming soon :)

Currently renaming Teams to Cells.
It's largely thematic (and a silly amount of work for such a silly small thing) but I think it's pretty important. the thematic change helps focus my thinking on it, changes how I conceptualize them, how they'll work. for example, thinking of having an additional "in the field" state, so you can have your cells go 'active' and the group organizes and sets up in the safehouse, waiting for orders, as opposed to standdown where they're off duty, training, living their lives at home, etc.

Still need to find a better name for "squads", the pairings of operatives within a Cell (i.e. your programmer and his bodyguard). "Set" works well but could cause other programmy complications...

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 11:49:36 am

Oh. I thought the update was out because Desura told me there was an update :P

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: sparkbolt on September 04, 2013, 12:04:23 pm

hrm... can yuou give me the full info? I haven't done anything w/ desura since july 24

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: BlindKitty on September 04, 2013, 01:21:19 pm

As for the squads - I don't know about you, but I find 'posse' an interesting word for this, although I'm not sure if that's what would help you focus on them. I could also live with 'teams' being the name of what is now 'squad' - it is pretty much what I imagine when I think 'team'. And 'set' would be a little bit... Dehumanizing. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind you, being a broker and all. ;) Or maybe a 'troupe'? Most of the synonyms sound to me like they are exactly the same thing as 'cell' (a surprise, them being synonyms :P)... To avoid the programmy implications of 'set', you could also go with 'cluster', keeping similar vein to it, although more astronomical than mathematical. And then there is 'detail', which sounds all the way military. :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: jhxmt on September 04, 2013, 02:02:20 pm

'Cadre' might also work, to keep the slightly subversive element to things.  :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 02:08:44 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on September 04, 2013, 12:04:23 pm

hrm... can yuou give me the full info? I haven't done anything w/ desura since july 24

Not really sure what to tell you. Opened Desura, Net Gain should it had an update available. I downloaded and installed it and then Desura threw errors trying to open the .exe.

On the squads, why not just refer to them as cells? [Name] Cell would fit me just fine. Indigo Cell, Saber Cell, ect....

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: jhxmt on September 04, 2013, 02:11:33 pm

Quote from: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 02:08:44 pm

On the squads, why not just refer to them as cells? [Name] Cell would fit me just fine. Indigo Cell, Saber Cell, ect....

I think sparkbolt meant the next layer down (i.e. teams are being renamed to cells, then there's another layer of pairings/groupings within a team, currently called a squad, that also needs a name).  Having cells within cells might get confusing if you forget which layer you're working with.

Edit: spelling.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: gimlet on September 04, 2013, 02:20:05 pm

"We are not a gang, we are a club!"

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 02:20:14 pm

Cohort? I like that better than Cadre.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: ank on September 04, 2013, 02:37:44 pm

I know this is pretty uncreative, but how about just Unit?
I mean, if they at all times move together physically it kinda makes sense to treat them as a unit.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: Draco18s on September 04, 2013, 02:59:07 pm

Quote from: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 02:20:14 pm

Cohort? I like that better than Cadre.

Accomplice.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: Sensei on September 04, 2013, 03:26:16 pm

What about Outfit?

...or Cabal? :P

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: sparkbolt on September 04, 2013, 05:33:36 pm

Yeah I'm thinking Team or Unit.
So the idea is the Cell is the total group of operatives that are working together, but they can split up and go do their own things (hackers hacking remotely, acrobat and thief jumping through lasers in the vault, detective and enforcer roughing up info in the slums, spy watching the guards, etc)...
So far I'm thinking Team or Unit would be the best, since it has to sound "smaller" than the cell, preferably implying their close link since they're always together.

So I've got to fix the corp AI making missions before next build, which was all Morgan's code, but his last day was friday and it's pretty difficult to read what the heck is going on in there. Once that's fixed up and I finish some usability and UI stuff I might jsut push out the next build as is. I wanted to put more low hanging features in the build but I'll just put them in the next one and send that out sooner.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: sparkbolt on September 04, 2013, 05:47:49 pm

Quote from: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 02:08:44 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on September 04, 2013, 12:04:23 pm

hrm... can yuou give me the full info? I haven't done anything w/ desura since july 24

Not really sure what to tell you. Opened Desura, Net Gain should it had an update available. I downloaded and installed it and then Desura threw errors trying to open the .exe.

hrm... what were the errors? what's your platform?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: gimlet on September 04, 2013, 06:56:17 pm

Corporate Naming Convention - Section 4.20.90210:
   Disavowable Unit, Provisional, Expendable.   Optional name components:  Append size designation  -S for Small, etc.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: nenjin on September 05, 2013, 09:12:12 am

Quote from: sparkbolt on September 04, 2013, 05:47:49 pm

Quote from: nenjin on September 04, 2013, 02:08:44 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on September 04, 2013, 12:04:23 pm

hrm... can yuou give me the full info? I haven't done anything w/ desura since july 24

Not really sure what to tell you. Opened Desura, Net Gain should it had an update available. I downloaded and installed it and then Desura threw errors trying to open the .exe.

hrm... what were the errors? what's your platform?

Just a generic Desura error that it couldn't find the .exe.

I'm on Win 7 Home.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: sparkbolt on September 05, 2013, 12:07:35 pm

Hrm.. try deleting the local content on your computer and redownloading... not sure why that'd happen, but it sounds like something on desura's end.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: nenjin on September 05, 2013, 12:10:31 pm

Yeah that's what I ended up doing. v.0.4.1 works fine again. Damn you Desura, for getting my hopes up!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5. The future is all icons
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on September 05, 2013, 12:26:18 pm

I want this inside me. I thought I PTWd this forever ago and there wasn't any activity. :o

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: sparkbolt on September 09, 2013, 09:41:03 pm

blaaAH..... this last week was crap. it'll just be this week, im trying to push out asap, but there's a lot of UI and start/stop bugs to deal with. so much base stuff changed, before missions were driven by the misison itself, now it's all executor(team/squad/operative) based, ansd the missions are just "registries" of the objectives to do, with the executor deciding what to do with the mission and their state driving things. the active mission menu is still awful since it's not really designed for this kinda async stuff. next step will come with the map view, it'll all make more sense, but I'm trying to put off as much UI stuff as possible until Unity's 4.x UI overhaul stuff is released. Once that's out things are gonna get alll sorts of fancy, but because of some things im using now it's pretty limited while I wait for those engine features.

Also, what's PTW?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: nenjin on September 09, 2013, 10:37:15 pm

"Posting to watch"

I hope you don't end up waiting too long on new Unity features. I've known a few development teams that ended up in limbo because they couldn't move forward/were antsy about going forward without the proposed changes.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: sparkbolt on September 10, 2013, 02:19:33 am

Oh, not at all, UI stuff just lost a few priority points, but it's still ranked. It's actually already top spot, going to get a ton of love next build because I need more pretty for public launch. and that upcoming article.

Also, not sure if cross site posting is kosher, but there's a /tg/ thread (http://boards.4chan.org/tg/res/27134305) going.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: EuchreJack on September 10, 2013, 05:46:23 am

Cross site posting is fine, and often used.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: teoleo on September 14, 2013, 09:49:23 am

Demo version?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: nenjin on September 14, 2013, 02:17:57 pm

Quote from: teoleo on September 14, 2013, 09:49:23 am

Demo version?

Not yet. Only backers have access to the Prototype. When Mobile Ops (I think it is), is finished, that will serve as a demo of sorts.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: ScriptWolf on September 14, 2013, 02:21:30 pm

Spark how are things going ?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: sparkbolt on September 15, 2013, 06:40:01 pm

Things go.
The core concept of what a mission was changed pretty drastically from prototype to "what I can actually build with the funds supplied", and that added complexity meant the thing i've been building on isn't the right one (mission driven instead of operative driven). I shoulda switched over a few months ago, but it was important for me to get out some playable content for you guys instead of just a boring framework.

in a nutshell: still squashin' bugs. latest (operatives not knowing what to do if suddenly killed in the middle of a test) was easy, still a few along those lines to squash.

No official Demo version for awhile, so I guess it's whenever some version gets pirated.   :-\

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: sparkbolt on September 17, 2013, 07:26:12 pm

And new video is up, builds awaiting approval! http://youtu.be/_zhdzIYeDCg
Though I'm sure most of the world is busy playing GTAV right now.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: nenjin on September 17, 2013, 09:07:37 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/pLmhQH2.gif)

As always, I can't really comment on the thing until I have a chance to play through the changes and see how they flow. I love the re-branding option though.

Also like the sirens I could hear in the background of the video. It actually added to it somewhat. :P

I'll be starting my timer as soon as the build is approved on Desura. (I kid mostly, in truth I'm not too hot on arbitrary monthly deadlines unless you really feel you can make substantive changes in that time, ala Prison Architect.)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: ScriptWolf on September 18, 2013, 01:53:58 am

Quote from: sparkbolt on September 17, 2013, 07:26:12 pm

And new video is up, builds awaiting approval! http://youtu.be/_zhdzIYeDCg
Though I'm sure most of the world is busy playing GTAV right now.

just wow your new intel system is fucking genius i love it. Cant wait for you to unlock more missions and other fun things

I cant wait for the next update, every time i see a update and play the game i always think best $150 spent.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.4.1. False alarm!
Post by: sparkbolt on September 18, 2013, 01:56:25 am

Build is live!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: jhxmt on September 18, 2013, 04:53:04 pm

I'm enjoying this.  Even the times when my missions go catastrophically wrong...   :P

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/1JNo5UQ.jpg)

My goddamn spy couldn't keep her goddamn head beneath the parapet when her cell was snooping around my competitor, and then screwed the pooch trying to slip away from the guard team.  I'm sure her fellow cell members would've had something to say to her, had they not all immediately been terminated with extreme prejudice.

Damn you, Whisper.

Edit: one thing this has made me notice...Triggerhappy is a dead operative.  Whisper and Bitmap are still alive (for the next minute or so at least).  Both of them still have some Loyalty towards Triggerhappy.  I can't check if this'll vanish when the mission's over (because, in this instance, they'll both be dead anyway), but I assume operatives can't end up being loyal to dead comrades?  I'm guessing it's simply that the loyalty values don't get cleared/reset until after the end of a challenge, and this brawl is still ongoing.

Edit 2: image size (for those of you with smaller screens ;))

Edit 3: bit of a (known?) bug: if you have a cell in which all operatives have died (ahem), that cell still exists, empty, in your Operatives menu.  You can then hire new operatives and assign them to it.  If you then plan a new mission, assign that cell to it, set up all the various objectives/challenges accordingly, then Authorize and Assign the mission...you cannot, apparently, Start it.  This seems to be because the Cell still thinks it's locked into the last (failed) objective of the now-all-dead team.  I can't find a way to get it past that point, and there's also no way to unAssign the mission from the reconstituted Cell (as you can't access the Cell Orders screen until the mission's Started).

And I can't Disband the cell (from the operatives menu) because it's Active.  Yeah.  That'll teach me to try to recycle my cells.  :P

One simple (I assume) fix would be to remove a cell once all its members have been killed.  No idea what else that might entail for your backend, though.

Relevant screenshot (clicking the Start Operation button does nothing):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/tTaunxC.jpg)

Edit 4: um, apparently even disbanding the cell after everyone's dead doesn't help - the next cell you create suffers from the same problem.  (No, I am not deliberately sacrificing all my operatives just to test this out - they're all just really, really bad at their work!  :P)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: nenjin on September 18, 2013, 09:04:54 pm

I'm having trouble with the update.

I've uninstalled the prototype three times now (removed local files but not removed it from my Desura account) and it keeps coming back with "not a valid exe." I've checked the Desura directory under common and there's no files for Net Gain in there. Not really sure what's going on. This is my work laptop, I'll see what happens when I get home tomorrow and see what it does on my desktop install.

This seems to be recurring problem with Desura. I've had this problem with Project Zomboid and Dominions 4 as well.

On further examination, it seems Desura is simply not downloading the game at all. ><

Removing the game from my Desura account and trying to re-add it gives me "branch invalid or user does not have permission to install branch."

Also removed it completely from my account, re-added the gift and redownloaded the whole thing (which took about 8 minutes or so).....and there's still nothing in Desura/common/.

No f'ing idea what's going on, I guess I'll just mess with it more when I get home. Maybe being on crappy hotel wifi has something to do with it.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: Falknor on September 18, 2013, 10:39:32 pm

I had the same trouble. I found the files in the Program files (x86) Level zero folder. I ran it there and everything works.
It's the 0.5 version.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: nenjin on September 19, 2013, 08:53:55 am

Ah hah! I deleted that once thinking it was the old stand alone prototype. Tested, works, now I just gotta play. Thanks!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on September 21, 2013, 01:34:53 am

Sorry for all the desura hassle, been getting guff on my end as well... Maybe if I can get enough PR during the public launch, we can muster enough attention to really start on greenlight.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: EuchreJack on September 27, 2013, 05:35:44 am

Looking forward to purchasing this once it's released.  When is the release date again?

EDIT: Nevermind, rechecked the intro post, and saw Q1 2014.  Is that still mostly accurate?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: nenjin on September 27, 2013, 09:51:36 am

I believe so, yes.

Been awful quiet since the update SB, what's going down?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on September 27, 2013, 11:53:25 am

Heya! On the phone, had to make an unplanned trip to Michigan to see my father.
The big bug everyone found was the dead cell thing. That was an easy fix, but I'd already began the next features which interfered with the same code and it was all sort of a bother. I'm gonna release a quick fix for the bug when I get home, continue cell state "directive"stuff, then either focus at art or economy.

Release of alpha may be sooner than that, if I can get it before I get pushed out of the press by the holiday AAA titles.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 05, 2013, 04:56:52 pm

blah. hotfix patch is out, the features I mentioned wanting for 5.1 aren't ready yet

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: nenjin on October 05, 2013, 06:50:17 pm

Sweet. At least I can run a game for as long as I can stay awake. ;)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 06, 2013, 04:20:56 am

Quote from: sparkbolt on October 05, 2013, 04:56:52 pm

blah. hotfix patch is out, the features I mentioned wanting for 5.1 aren't ready yet

That's fine I would rather wait and have more polish to it :) spark what features were being done for 5.1 again ?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 07, 2013, 03:06:33 pm

I'm not sure what I've said, actually :P with the sprints I kinda just have a lot of specific targets laid out, and then I pick from among those based on a variety of variables (time, complexity, feature group, priority, "shiny", pre-requirements, demand, promise, etc).


I know I said I was going to get objective following in active missions working again so that's on the set list. since it's a "step build I'm gonna focus on what I just launched, so it'll be more stuff on Intel, missions, interface stuff, cell stuff. less "big feature" more "ease of use, tweak, small addition, etc".
Although, I might put the first pass off that economic "fiefdom" system in. I think it'll help a lot with stability

Though that'd be for 5.2, anyway. Really I should'a labelled the last build as 5.0a instead of 5.1, but I'm'ma just roll with it now.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: nichaey on October 08, 2013, 12:30:34 am

This looks quite interesting, posting to watch

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 15, 2013, 12:16:44 pm

V5.2 is now up!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5 is live!
Post by: nenjin on October 15, 2013, 12:22:48 pm

Oh shi-

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 15, 2013, 12:23:42 pm

Having some problems downloading net gain through desura is throwing a fit when i try to install any ideas ?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on October 15, 2013, 12:25:30 pm

Uninstall the current version (but do NOT remove it from your Desura account.) Then re-install.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 15, 2013, 12:31:29 pm

Quote from: nenjin on October 15, 2013, 12:25:30 pm

Uninstall the current version (but do NOT remove it from your Desura account.) Then re-install.

damn it i miss clicked and accidently removed when trying to uninstall T.T help ? please and thank you

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on October 15, 2013, 12:40:56 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on October 15, 2013, 12:31:29 pm

Quote from: nenjin on October 15, 2013, 12:25:30 pm

Uninstall the current version (but do NOT remove it from your Desura account.) Then re-install.

damn it i miss clicked and accidently removed when trying to uninstall T.T help ? please and thank you

You may have to go back to your emails and find the activation link for the Net Gain Prototype. Rooting around in Desura is also probably required. I've done it before, but I can't remember the process I used to re-add it. It is possible though.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 15, 2013, 12:59:03 pm

hmm i think i need to get sent it again by sparkbolt ? :P gah cant remember >,<

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 15, 2013, 01:29:28 pm

search your email for "Desura" or "net gain", should pull up something. if all else fails, send me a message on Desura and I'll pull up the CD Key for that account.


Hopefully this should be the last of the stupid desura conflicts for now, their updater had some problems with changed I made in the last build so sometimes it needs the previous content to be deleted.


the mac desura-client version seems to still be messed up, waiting for their response.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 15, 2013, 02:00:49 pm

Desura is being stupid and not letting me do anything :( i think i sent you a mail on desura are you Sintua on desura spark ?

Also what's new in 5.2 and any new features ?:)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 16, 2013, 01:26:52 pm

no new features, more tweaking.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on October 19, 2013, 11:22:26 pm

Taking some time to sit down with NG again, so here we go:

-I'm seeing 0 level challenges show up. Bug? (Objective: Collection Information. Challenge: Reason(0) )

-I seem to recall in previous versions that the game music would play if the game wasn't the window that had focus, or if it was minimized. Seems that's changed? I prefer to be able to minimize the game while missions are running, ect.... and listen to the music while I do other stuff.

-On the main menu screen, I think the missions button should have some indicator that missions are currently in progress. A little clock icon, slightly pulsing glow, somethin'.

-Had a tense moment: my Admin kept completely blowing their cracking role despite all reason: 3 times in a row! But the consequences each time played directly into both my techies skills. The game knife edges delightfully between unfailable challenges and risky gambits.

-Unfortunately, my budget woes continue. Within the first 10 minutes, my budget for the department dropped by 65%. It's steadily creeping back up after that, but all my petty cash has gotten eaten up covering the shortfall, and hiring has been a no-go. Glad I snagged two new ops when I did, right at the start of the game.

-I see you got the mission abort option in there now. Many thanks.

-When do your choices of plots and missions refresh? As soon as you cancel the mission and start a new one? I find myself sort of shopping now for missions with the risk level I can live with, which isn't too bad, as it gives you a reason to slow down play.

-It's cool watching the associations between cell members form. Ironically, my two female techies have the highest loyalty to each other, outside of themselves and the Corp that is. Neat!

-Right now I seem to get by on a minimum of five cell members. I pick up a Driver and another computer-affiliated profession and that seems to get me through about 40% of the plots I generate with a small margin for failure. Least used of the default professions by far? Duelist. But I suppose they're there for when you actually foul up.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 20, 2013, 11:57:32 am

Quote from: nenjin on October 19, 2013, 11:22:26 pm

-I'm seeing 0 level challenges show up. Bug? (Objective: Collection Information. Challenge: Reason(0) )

Known Bug! Submit a report, I'll make sure to stamp that one out in the next conflict pass. :D

Quote

-I seem to recall in previous versions that the game music would play if the game wasn't the window that had focus, or if it was minimized. Seems that's changed? I prefer to be able to minimize the game while missions are running, ect.... and listen to the music while I do other stuff.

This was a choice with the last build: I have the option to make the game run while in "background mode", which I usually set to default since that's how I like to play my strategy games (europa universalis on one monitor, tv shows/internet in the other!). I know this isn't the norm for most games though so I wasn't sure if I should turn it off or not. I think I'll change it back to always running next build.

Quote

-On the main menu screen, I think the missions button should have some indicator that missions are currently in progress. A little clock icon, slightly pulsing glow, somethin'.

very true, this is intended to happen once those core buttons become gui elements on that main screen instead of just buttons in that starting menu. closer to (but not exactly like) the ones in the mockup pictures, it'll show if you got things running. Then you can click on it and it'll pull up your missions, each button showing what's going on in that mission.

Quote

-Had a tense moment: my Admin kept completely blowing their cracking role despite all reason: 3 times in a row! But the consequences each time played directly into both my techies skills. The game knife edges delightfully between infailable challenges and risky gambits.

yeah I'm probably going to have to do some design changes to sharpen that knife edge... it's difficult because the escapes and original plots are supposed to be the meat of the "are you good enough" challenge, so getting into a conflict means you've fucked up and is supposed to serve as a kind of punishment for failure. conflicts should be survivable (unlike currently), but with heat systems and such they might still mean the collapse of the mission: if you're screwing up enough to get heat and make things harder, then continuing a more difficult mission is likely to result in more failure, so you'll tend to only continue if the exposure was more of a fluke.

Quote

-Unfortunately, my budget woes continue. Within the first 10 minutes, my budget for the department dropped by 65%. It's steadily creeping back up after that, but all my petty cash has gotten eaten up covering the shortfall, and hiring has been a no-go. Glad I snagged two new ops when I did, right at the start of the game.

Yeah, budgets are still wonky. There's actually an impressive formula in place to calculate budget changes but I dont think it got implemented properly so I'll have to dig through strange code and change it... but either way, we'll see how things shake out with the new economic system; should be more stable.

Quote

-I see you got the mission abort option in there now. Many thanks.

Roger!

Quote

-When do your choices of plots and missions refresh? As soon as you cancel the mission and start a new one? I find myself sort of shopping now for missions with the risk level I can live with, which isn't too bad, as it gives you a reason to slow down play.

Choice of missions is dependent on intel. Choice of plots is supposed to be mostly "fixed" per mission so you have to work with your options, though obviously you can currently scrap the mission to reset and get new plots.

Quote

-It's cool watching the associations between cell members form. Ironically, my two female techies have the highest loyalty to each other, outside of themselves and the Corp that is. Neat!

It's mostly a 'trick' atm since there's limited input on that system, but it is slowly expanding and linking into new things. it'll get a lot more love in the next operatives iteration which should be soonish.

Quote

-Right now I seem to get by on a minimum of five cell members. I pick up a Driver and another computer-affiliated profession and that seems to get me through about 40% of the plots I generate with a small margin for failure. Least used of the default professions by far? Duelist. But I suppose they're there for when you actually foul up.

Yeah, the duelist is the guy you hope you don't have to use, but you bring along in case. Well,  ideally. with the current lethal conflicts they don't make much of a difference.. they might once response teams are added.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on October 20, 2013, 04:39:06 pm

So a thought occurred to me last night, while my team was failing spectacularly at everything.

Say you have these requirements for mission plots:

-2 kinds of hackers
-a driver
-a spy
-a gymnast
-a interrogator

If you create 5 cells to put that stuff in an all assign them to the same mission, and one of the cells gets their cover blown...

Are all cells pulled into that conflict, or just all members of the cell that fucked up?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 23, 2013, 02:10:51 pm

There's only 1 cell per mission, so they'd all be together. *but* I'm making it so only the person who fucked up (and maybe someone else if he really fucked up) is "exposed" in the followup conflict, so any nearby cell members can still help from covert status. That's all part of the conflict iteration though: a conflict between two sides, members flipping between exposed, hunted, covert with different engagement options depending on status+skills. E.G., a covert hacker can run support, exposing enemies. An unexposed fighter can ambush exposed rivals. tracked operatives can work on losing their tail, engage the enemy directly, or try to set up ambushes/traps. faces have to be exposed to use their social skills, giving you the option to attempt to shmooze your way out of it and put your face at risk, or try to leave him in the background to keep him alive.


I'm actually about to make a big test change to operatives... Net Gain arose from Pen and Paper, and in an odd "Getting away from"/"Returning to" design process, I'm redesigning operative skills to be more intuitive. It's difficult because I want to keep the variety that we all love, but as a broker you should be able to evaluate an operative fairly well at a glance.
Also as it is there are certain "Special" skills that are used in the mechanics while others arent, and the player never knows what. this was by design (just like in P+P, you have your dodge skill and your plane repair skill), but I'm not liking it in practice.
So I'm both leaving behind the old P+P skill list while embracing some of my more eccentric ideas for the original P+P at the same time, streamlining the skills, changing the details over into an old concept of "specialties", etc.


Given there's no saving and any operatives you do get tend to die in bloody messes, I think now might be a good time to test such a drastic change to the fellas.


P.S. Please forgive my use of the male generic when I type. It's faster for me to not trip over the "gender neutral and grammatically incorrect 'they'" every time, and I try to make sure to keep it fair in any actual written materials I put out.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 23, 2013, 04:49:32 pm

Thank you for the key help spark :) sorry my slow replys work is killing me right now :P

But how fares the development ?

One more thing. After reading your post on your forums ( I plan on replying there as well ) I'm not to keen on the idea of you streamlining the operatives skills I liked it when there were a lot more. I can see the plus side to the cut down but I think once you have the stream lined skills fully implemented you should start to add more back in

No skills focused on explosives now I'm sad

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 25, 2013, 05:30:09 pm

No worries, boyo! Explosives is still there! :D
So on the forum post (http://forum.levelzerogames.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=809) you'll see where I mention "perks". So the core school/skill is used for this big game mechanic stuff (conflicts, etc), and perks modify the action within that mechanic.


For example: You can have the explosives perk on Combat/Assault, or even Combat/Tactics, and that makes your guy use explosives in conflicts, recommend explosive-themed plots,bonus on explosive tests, etc.
Currently, I'm considering either a fixed 1-perk per, or "slotting" Perks in skill ranks, so for example you'd need at least 3 Assault to use explosives (required 3 slots). if you had 4 Assault, you might have Explosives(3) and shortarms(1). so those are costs to slot, not ranks for tests as we currently have.


So, that means when you're looking at who can do what, you have this streamlined list of ops to pick from: "I need someone for protection... ok these guy have good combat skills, these two are good at defense." And then if you are so inclined to work with such details: "Well this guy has explosives and I'm trying not to cause too much attention, so I'll go with this guy who has some Covert schools, and thus covert skills and tags, as well. He'll be more likely to recommend stealthy takedowns instead of loud ambushes, and he'll try to keep it quiet if it gets rough."


Development has been very slow this october, lots of outside factors and other LZG business detracting, plus working shorter hours to recover from some RSI. Should be picking up speed again before November.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on October 25, 2013, 07:03:18 pm

I've said my piece of the forums. You'll get it sorted, but don't forget that, as you abstract things away you begin to lose some of the specific imagery and details that make these characters breathe. The less specific things get, the more gamey it gets. And one of the things that initially drew me to NG was that it wasn't super gamey, and did feel like it had a PnP vibe going more than other offerings.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 25, 2013, 07:20:33 pm

True, and that's sort of one of the biggest wars in the Net Gain design schema. that balance between detail vs. everything else that too much detail can mess up (e.g. intuitive controls, accessible data, "pin in haystack" kinda stuff... plus the strain on processing and memory and savegame size and loading, etc).


One of the guidelines that helps control that limit is: the net gain rules are to remain compatible with the tabletop rules, so it must maintain at least that level of detail. But, keep in mind, this is a game of brokers, so just as you only have so many stats for your weapons in DnD, you only have so many stats for your operatives in NG. Operatives are the game's main interaction point, so they'll always be very complex, but they must maintain a scope where one player at the table will be able to keep that operative in mind without forgetting everything else.


The US military has this "rule of 7" where you're supposed to have up to 7 direct subordinates, and any more than that is a detriment to your attention and ability. There's flexibility within this attention budget by having some operatives that you just sorta set up once then stick on a task until you're bothered to look again, who don't take up too much attention, and your main ops running that mission you're really invested in, and those semi-important side ones can just have the leader op who you only need to worry about when he calls you to check in, report emergency, etc.


Of course this is all mechanics related. once these are laid down, then if I can keep this thing running, I can go back and fill in the "aesthetic details" such as resumes, more amusing interactions between ops, or the broker.  more trait tie-ins to various simulation "cogs", like giving the operatives vacation time, having traits decide what they do on that vacation, if things happen while they're out, etc etc. things that aren't so much impacting gameplay if they're worked into an existing system (say, a broad "recovery time" mechanic for operatives, and a vacation is how they recover Integrity and Personality, maybe some Acuity burn damage, etc.). so then it's just part of this "heal this operative" command, but the detail that command pulls forth is rich.


That kinda stuff will require some time, right now I'm focusing on some of the broader strokes.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: lordcooper on October 26, 2013, 01:48:56 pm

Is there any way for new people to buy into this at present?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 26, 2013, 01:58:28 pm

So if I have this right.

As well as physical stats - Health, strength, intelligence

There are now skill stats -

Drive
-Pursuit
-Escape
-Mechanic

Which then feed into perks, continuing on with the driving skill set one perk a character could acquire would be Boat or car driving ect...

Although I don't really like calling that a perk. specialism or something along those lines would be better.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 26, 2013, 01:59:58 pm

So if I have this right.

As well as physical stats - Health, strength, intelligence

There are now skill stats -

Drive
-Pursuit
-Escape
-Mechanic

Which then feed into perks, continuing on with the driving skill set one perk a character could acquire would be Boat or car driving ect...

Although I don't really like calling that a perk. specialism or something along those lines would be better.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: PTTG?? on October 26, 2013, 02:05:17 pm

Is it possible to make texture packs for this game? Because the cityscape design is really really noisy. It looks really uncomfortable to look at for long periods...

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 26, 2013, 04:16:22 pm

No texture packs or anything like that, no.


So there are Stats: Body, Agility, Acuity, Integrity, Personality. These define base values for your op, and base values for various tests.
Schools: Combat, Social, Net. Each school represents a collection of mechanics (physical conflicts, social conflicts/negotiations, hacking/tech stuff, etc).
Skills: Assault, Defense, Tactics. These are the values used within that mechanic, what options are available in that mechanic, etc.
Specialities (Perks): Shortarms, Longarms, Explosives. The method/flavor/style in which tasks are attempted. Not to say they can't do others if specifically tasked, but they prefer whatever they have specialities with.
It'll really depend on how those specific mechanics evolve and what sort of things I need from specialties at that time.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on October 26, 2013, 07:29:54 pm

Quote from: lordcooper on October 26, 2013, 01:48:56 pm

Is there any way for new people to buy into this at present?

not yet, but soon!  watch our FB page or sign up for the newsletter to find out when we make it available.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on November 02, 2013, 06:45:44 pm

Spark how's it going? Eta on next build ? And do you have a set time scale of build releases e.g. 1 ever month

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on November 26, 2013, 06:38:09 pm

Shameless bump.

Spark mind if I ask who and what the contract was :P


Seems like spark has been busy acquiring more funding hence the silence full details in the spoiler. Well I hope everything is back on track now spark :)

Spoiler:  why there was silence (click to show/hide)

Level Zero Games
1 hour ago
Hey all! Well, "Bad News, Good News" time.

Bad news is already resolving: Another LZG contract has been increasingly eating up my time, as you may have noticed with the recent drop in activity over here. it pretty much killed my efforts to implement the tag system this month, and reduced the amount of time last month. Also, during this month, Unity released the new 2D toolset I've been waiting for! this is good news, but in the bad news category as it means more development time to switch to the new system and get things working again. Gotta do this at some point, so I may as well do it with this tag overhaul. All this means it'll still be some time until Net Gain get's back on track and growing again.

Good news is that this contract means 4-5 more months of development time for Net Gain! I was hoping I could balance the two more easily, but I had to prioritize. Delays are never fun, but I think the extra dev time is more than worth the trade!

So, it's going to be a busy month over here getting things running again. I'm sorry about the silence over here, but honestly I was a bit in denial about how slow things had gotten and I was hoping to just power through it, which clearly didn't quite work. But! Here we are; bad news dealt with, we've got our extra time, and now lots of new good developments are coming up!

So current plans: the tag system mentioned last month, and making everything compatible with the new Unity/NGUI stuff. A lot of the GUI stuff will be under the hood, but the additions and fixes will open up some doors that were previously closed, and removed some bottlenecks. I'll keep everyone up on the new developments on Twitter like usual, and the occasional post on here. Though it's going to be pretty boring for awhile still... upgrading code to new standards isn't very exciting.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on November 26, 2013, 07:01:28 pm

Well that's decent news. I'm not too hung up on Net Gain's timeline, as long as it's "done" sometime in 2014.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on November 27, 2013, 02:47:52 pm

I'm still aiming at having 1.0 in 2014, though the "feature complete" will probably be pushed later in the year to summer or such. Definitely want the game "fun" asap, which is the current development target. I wanted to get more of the rewards stuff ready (character generators, etc), but fun has got to be the priority, and it's not there yet.


My menu code is pretty much entirely built around a series of workarounds that dealt with problems NGUI and Unity have now changed their structure to fix, so I'm going to have to gut a lot of it. Considering just starting from scratch at this point, pulling in copied old code where needed... might actually use this "menu starter kit" the ngui guy has as a foundation to save myself some time and get back to the meat faster.


This contract definitely screwed up my schedule, thought I could pull it off without conflicts but that wasn't the case... I'm not sure if I should name specifics, but I have this off-and-on thing where I make online programming related tutorials for an "online camp", the lessons they use in their summer tech camps. I had a bunch of minecraft modding tutorials last year that was a gfreat excuse to make some minecraft mods I wanted ;). The thing I don't like about it is the lessons are all private and I can't repost them. I wanted to float the idea of offering some courses for free like MIT or such, but I'm just a contractor with no pull. This is why I like having my own company...


Focus is back on Net Gain, but I am still hitting a design wall with the mechanics/menus that I want to fully resolve before I start rebuilding all this stuff. I knew this rebuild was coming, but I want to be sure I'm not setting myself up for another rebuild anytime soon.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on November 27, 2013, 02:50:03 pm

Quote from: sparkbolt on November 27, 2013, 02:47:52 pm

Focus is back on Net Gain, but I am still hitting a design wall with the mechanics/menus that I want to fully resolve before I start rebuilding all this stuff. I knew this rebuild was coming, but I want to be sure I'm not setting myself up for another rebuild anytime soon.

Sometimes that's what it takes. I know I'm patient in waiting for this.  :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on December 11, 2013, 11:17:57 am

Blegh! Major refactoring is being held up by holiday stuff... driving back and forth across the country all month! I'm using the time to lock down some more design stuff but I'm itching to get back into the code... but I know it'll be better if I dont get interrupted for a week+ when I'm just starting.
I did order a new laptop on black friday that I can actually code on (my ancient eeePC can barely start up), but the jerks delayed the shipping to after the holidays (seriously!? The hell kind of ship are you running, Lenovo), but I'm going to see if I can cancel that one and find a local machine so I can start some code during my christmas trip back home.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on December 11, 2013, 11:21:54 am

Quote from: sparkbolt on December 11, 2013, 11:17:57 am

Blegh! Major refactoring is being held up by holiday stuff... driving back and forth across the country all month! I'm using the time to lock down some more design stuff but I'm itching to get back into the code... but I know it'll be better if I dont get interrupted for a week+ when I'm just starting.
I did order a new laptop on black friday that I can actually code on (my ancient eeePC can barely start up), but the jerks delayed the shipping to after the holidays (seriously!? The hell kind of ship are you running, Lenovo), but I'm going to see if I can cancel that one and find a local machine so I can start some code during my christmas trip back home.

Dude take a break it's nearly Christmas :P you owe your self that what you have released so far is a great starting point

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on January 14, 2014, 06:36:28 pm

Hey spark don't know when and if you will get this but how's everything been going ? Everything has been very quiet.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on January 14, 2014, 07:07:10 pm

><

And here I thought it was SB posting.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on January 14, 2014, 08:01:20 pm

Yep, still plowing along. I'm rebuilding the whole GUI system from scratch which is taking some time as I get used to all the changes, then I'm adding back the scripts one at a time, editing for cleanliness... basically rebuilding the project for a nice clean base to work from. This is the last refactor for awhile, and with all the changes happening at once this path happened to be the easiest. Nothing exciting while I port over the previous code that works and strip/upgrade the code that doesn't.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Draco18s on January 15, 2014, 12:03:21 am

Quote from: sparkbolt on January 14, 2014, 08:01:20 pm

refactor

Ah yes.
Starting over because the spaghetti code is so awful to work with.
Been there.

(I actually rebuilt a project I'd been working on for four months in two days, after having not touched the original in over two years.  The refactor took a 40-minute asset build cycle down to a 10 minute cycle--totally worth it.  Downside: I ran out of sprites and can't really continue and I'm not an artist)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on January 15, 2014, 02:42:55 am

How long as a estimate do you think all the changes will take ? And thanks for the update :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on January 15, 2014, 09:21:08 pm

Quote

Refactoring

Oye, yeah. It was less due to spaghetti code and more because I had to rewrite such a massive portion of GUI and Mission Planning (two very code intensive parts), that it just made sense to start a clean build. Though getting rid of some of that much that was starting to accumulate will certainly be nice, not to mention applying everything I've learned since starting this project to make things better.

Quote

estimate

This refactor could go smoothly or could become a nightmare, and I can't really tell at this stage how it's going to go. Or at least, there are so many variables that the range is too wide to even matter. I'll have a better idea once I get a new playable build - which again, too unclear to say right now.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2014, 07:35:18 pm

Hey SB, been keeping up with Twitter so I know you're plenty busy but....

Think we could get a teaser shot of the new UI you've been working on? If it's just not ready to show yet that's cool, but after reading about it has gotten me all pumped again and I'd love for something to tide me over.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on February 10, 2014, 01:28:39 am

It's not very shiny yet, but there's a pic up over on the facebook. As you can tell a lot of systems still aren't back in yet. It'll be awhile still, I think.
Here's another: (http://i.imgur.com/9zeKnUt.png)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on February 10, 2014, 11:52:42 am

Definitely an improvement. The variance in font really helps give it a less 2-bit look. Keep plugging away sir, looking forward to taking it for a test spin when it's safe for public consumption.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Aklyon on February 10, 2014, 12:03:06 pm

I'll second that nenjin, its looking pretty great.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Draco18s on February 10, 2014, 12:40:34 pm

I'd like a "less noisy text area background" option.  The "Juliet Agency" section is a little difficult to read as there's a lot of text on a fairly complex background and the elements of each are a similar thickness.

That said, it is much improved.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 16, 2014, 09:56:20 am

New video is out showing off the new time increasing mechanics and news ticker.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=jXDfonxnC1E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjXDfonxnC1E%26feature%3Dyoutu.be

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on April 14, 2014, 03:18:06 pm

Hey spark I noticed you have changed a lot in the game and now it revolves around you as the broker could we get some more details on that ? Also does this mean you as a broker act sort of like an agent now and you can interact with the world?

https://m.facebook.com/LevelZeroGames/photos/a.10151355745203449.507793.121193388448/10152307095838449/?type=1&source=46&refid=17

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: EuchreJack on April 25, 2014, 04:42:58 pm

If nothing else, one would think the enemy corporations should be able to try to kill your broker while they're out on the town.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Zireael on April 26, 2014, 01:57:05 am

I love the new GUI!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on April 30, 2014, 09:36:55 pm

Heyo fellas!


So the refocusing on the broker was more from a gui flow standpoint, as he's the "base menu", so you'll follow your connections out to find targets and such. As a broker you want to really stay entirely out of the field and anonymous... when action in the field starts to creep back in your direction is when you're at risk! I've also put more emphasis on the brokers by lowering the number of them working in the field, making the community smaller and more relatable, and individually more potent. I'm currently testing with one broker per agency per corporation, with promotions being increased position and influence within the corporation, rather than an active competition with more brokers in your corp. It's lightweight enough where when the time comes I could try to switch back to 3-5 brokers per corp, but I think this singular format lets you really put a face on your opposition among rival corps, names you'll be able to remember and loathe. And it allows for individual brokers (i.e. the player) to wield much greater power, that would have to be diluted if there were multiples per corp. There'll still be room for broker infighting at the higher ranks with conglomerates, as there will be multiple corps under one branch!


Here's the latest. I'm still rebuilding the cards and menus so there's some gaps (like the asset cards) that i'll get to soon enough. I'll also be looking at making the backgrounds less noisy without making everything so flat. It'll help once more art assets like more icons come in.


(http://i.imgur.com/eahK8Mf.png)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on April 30, 2014, 10:52:37 pm

Lookin' forward to it SB.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: EuchreJack on April 30, 2014, 10:58:13 pm

Nice!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on May 15, 2014, 07:06:06 am

just a little bit of news netgain has now been greenlit on steam! hooray hopefully this means early access and also easier pushout of alpha/beta builds

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Lithare on May 15, 2014, 07:56:39 am

Posting for the slightest update.  I've been wanting to get into this game since I found out about it.  Looks amazing.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on May 15, 2014, 03:37:24 pm

Oh yeah! It looks like I *should* be able to set up backers with close alpha keys, so I'll probably do that with the next build or soon after.
Considering that launching on Steam puts us in front of a MILLION new eyes, and the "update" bumps after are a much more limited market, we probably wont go public until the game is pretty solid. That being said, I might try what Klei did with Dont Starve and offer some limited-time "secret" buy ins to the closed alpha, but I need to see how compatible that is with my contractual obligations to steam.


I have to admit I got stuck in a pretty nasty cycle where I'd finish the design, I'd fail at implementing it to code, then I'd bounce back to redesign the thing to try and fix the implementation problem, then face new problems trying to implement that... it took way too long for me to realize I was stuck in this loop which has been adding to the delay for this build. I'm still learning quite a bit as I go, as I'm usually the design&production on a project, and on the projects I've programmed for my contributions were either limited in scope or the project was simple enough to not worry about the bloated complexity of old code.


I've since realized the big overhaul was actually a pretty terrible idea and set me back by many months, and wasted tons of work that could still have been viable. By the time I realized this it was better to keep on the path then go back, but I'll be avoiding that same trap again. I had budgeted time for such mistakes, though I think I've used up most of that allowance already... luckily the side-work last fall gives me a bit of new padding.


I recently watched the GDC talk by Alexander Bruce who made Antichamber (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020776/Antichamber-An-Overnight-Success-Seven), and definitely related to many of the trials he brought up. Being aware of these problems, they're easier to catch and correct, but some mental things are hard to adjust. I'm always worrying about how the new build will be received since it's not that large a step beyond 5.2 despite the time that's elapsed. The rebuild is still behind the 5.2 in some areas, but overall is such a sideways move due to so many designs being changed. I definitely think it's a better code base, and the deeper mechanical changes will tweak the things I saw that simply weren't fun in the old game, but I still want to pack more "new" in so when people come back to the game they won't be upset that all the work was sunk into things they don't even notice.


I'm still certain that it's better to release the new build once it's surpassed the old one in all areas instead of just being comparable. I want people to have fun with it, and lets be honest, the old builds weren't really that much fun.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ScriptWolf on May 15, 2014, 04:00:00 pm

Spark looking at the screenshots the game seems to come a long way since i last saw it i'm looking forward to it, even if there is not tons of new stuff the cleaned up UI is a much welcome change. how long do you think till your ready to put out a new build ?

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Neonivek on May 15, 2014, 04:06:51 pm

Don't feel bad sparkbolt that happens to the best of developers.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: hemmingjay on May 15, 2014, 06:17:26 pm

Spark, As a developer and a consultant on many games I think I might humbly offer you a little perspective on some of the things you mention. I have benefited from some things you have shared publicly as I have been toiling in seclusion. I chose not to publicly share much of my work developing on my current project to avoid a lot of the distraction and negativity I have found recently amongst gamers. I miss the social interaction and collaboration though.

Quote from: sparkbolt on May 15, 2014, 03:37:24 pm

launching on Steam puts us in front of a MILLION new eyes, and the "update" bumps after are a much more limited market    Actually Early Access will have roughly 8-12 million new eyes on it depending on what day of the month you release on. Once you do a proper live 1.0 release you will have up to 64 Million eyes on it, assuming they will still put you on the new release list. Things are changing with Steam and the current trend of putting 10+ year old games on the new release list and watering down the offerings has to change. Unfortunately that might also mean that Early Access games won't get featured the same as a straight to gold release. Time will tell.
I definitely think it's a better code base, and the deeper mechanical changes will tweak the things I saw that simply weren't fun in the old game, but I still want to pack more "new" in so when people come back to the game they won't be upset that all the work was sunk into things they don't even notice. I'm still certain that it's better to release the new build once it's surpassed the old one in all areas instead of just being comparable. I want people to have fun with it, and lets be honest, the old builds weren't really that much fun. This is always hard. Much of the initial mechanical implementation of the game makes it functional but not fun. Further, you need to continue working on the functional side before approaching the fun values. It's hard because you worry that fans will lose faith and also you know how hard it is to add fun to something as complex as what you have created. There is a lot of self doubt and concern and you keep yourself up worrying about it but you still have to just keep on with your scheduled plans and wait for the right moment. You aren't alone. From your design docs that you have shared, you have nothing to worry about. You will be swimming in fun implementation decisions soon.

If you want to talk about development with another indie hit me up by private message. I am also available to talk to you about my actual professional work which is Marketing/PR and Business Development of games. I believe in total knowledge transfer so I don't charge to talk to you about your options and will even help you come up with a plan for yourself. I don't bill people unless I am actually doing the work for them. I think it's more important that we are all successful and grow our industry than it is to try to squeeze a few bucks out of everybody I meet. I have many references(AAA-Indie) if you are interested.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on May 22, 2014, 12:33:53 pm

Quote from: ScriptWolf on May 15, 2014, 04:00:00 pm

how long do you think till your ready to put out a new build ?

Still too early to say. I want to get one out this summer. I was shooting for the end of June but with the slow progress during April and May I'm not so sure.

Quote from: Neonivek on May 15, 2014, 04:06:51 pm

Don't feel bad sparkbolt that happens to the best of developers.

Well thank you... but as always I tend to be my own worst critic.

Quote from: hemmingjay on May 15, 2014, 06:17:26 pm

Actually Early Access will have roughly 8-12 million new eyes on it depending on what day of the month you release on. Once you do a proper live 1.0 release you will have up to 64 Million eyes on it, assuming they will still put you on the new release list ... Much of the initial mechanical implementation of the game makes it functional but not fun ... If you want to talk about development with another indie hit me up by private message...

Yeah, that'd be great! Shoot me an email at John@levelzerogames.com, I think I'd lose track of a PM on the forum.
I was going off the numbers Steam mentions; they suggest there will be about a million views through the initial release "Featured Games" section, possibly more depending on it's success. I'd have to have some crazy press and success before even launching to get on the featured panel, so I'm going off that base evaluation. There's probably more views  than that through the other means.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: hemmingjay on June 26, 2014, 03:50:21 pm

I work 18+ hrs a day, 7 days a week right now working on 2 games and serving 2 clients also in launches. However, this means I am too wound up to sleep most nights(or days) and I have been playing a lot of Netgain.

My own game is along similar lines in some ways and we have a lot of the same hurdles to overcome which is how do you add incredible depth and strategic options while keeping a simple GUI and allowing for some players that don't like to think too much and those that like to dig through spreadsheets and ponder every possible move. For me the answer has been to make the game incredibly simple to play and leave all of the depth for the player to discover on their own. Obviously that strategy is flawed since gamers have so little time and many will dismiss the game as shallow without ever experiencing the true design.

With Netgain I am genuinely unsure of how much depth is there. The concept allows for Machiavellian strategic play and evolving stories with the depth of Dwarf Fortress, but there seems to be nothing in yet to convey this to the player or perhaps even the functionality. I don't know how far you want to take the concept and if it is already done or not. I think the game would be very well served with some degree of narrative or response from the game to the player's actions. For example, when the player takes action against other companies and increases his own worth, there is no system in place to engage the player and reward him/her for this. There could be a correspondence from the board of directors rating the player's performance or newspaper headlines(my own mechanic in Arms Dealer) or maybe have the gameplay pause for a conference between your firm and another that you have been focusing on where they try to negotiate a cease-fire or threaten all out corporate war.

I don't mean to try to suggest you don't already have a fun game. I am merely wondering if you are trying to add a more engaging element or if your aim is to keep it to this cool unemotional, conscience removed environment. I've been following forever and the game is finally at a point where I am truly enjoying it. It's a white collar version of  Syndicate Wars to me.

I'd be happy to send you a beta build of my game next week if you are interested. A lot of our graphics are missing, balance isn't set and the text is all placeholder, but the general feel is there. Let me know. https://www.facebook.com/ArmsDealertheGame 

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on June 26, 2014, 05:57:17 pm

I've kinda felt that way about the game at times too.

But then I remind myself all the stuff that's planned but still not in. Developing your broker's capabilities. Developing your operatives, their inner workings. Stuff to spend money on. Consider it kinda like Mario Bros 3. The stated objective is pretty simple: get to the other side of the screen. But then there's aaaaallllllll that other incidental stuff that isn't actually necessary to play the game, but supports it and yields several layers of depth. In Mario's case, it's secret, secrets, more secrets, really special power ups, mini-games, a map-based world design, ect...

I think Netgain falls into the same boat. It's why I didn't burn myself out playing the prototype, because I kind of knew it was going to make me starting doubting the premise, without all those other supporting elements. And for a game like Net Gain, the fun is in the details....not necessarily the basic gameplay loop.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Retropunch on June 26, 2014, 06:00:04 pm

I didn't manage to get in on the alpha (although if there's any slots available pleaaaasee let me know!) so I shouldn't really comment on it, but I've read up on it a lot and watched all the videos and seriously cannot wait to get in on it.

I'm most excited about the long term aspects of this - I think it's a difficult thing to balance, but my absolute dream is for it to be almost an Alternate Reality game which you could keep running pretty much indefinitely. It's a tricky one to keep interesting though - from my perspective the key is never getting too powerful or untouchable. In most games you get to a peak where you can sort of waltz over everything, and I feel that making sure that the player never gets to that point (although they may go through waves of being really strong, and then *event* and they're back down the ladder) is important. In DF this is done with sieges/titans - you build up, they trash stuff/you, you build up and try to recover. I can imagine this in Net Gain with agents defecting, coups and all sorts, but I'm sure you have better ideas.

One major, major issue for me (which seems small) is the numbers in the main funds bar. The font used for it seems hard to read from the videos and it seems as though it needs to be the clearest bit of the screen as it's the one you're constantly looking at. I think it's just a text and spacing issue the 'E' is too close to the numbers, and the numbers themselves are a little bit hard to read. While I get the retro look, if you're wanting players to play it for a long time I think clarity should always trump style.

Lastly, even without playing, I like Hemmingjays idea of feedback from player actions. There's nothing worse than doing something you think is really awesome/cool/evil, and having no visible repercussions other than a stat moving up or down a point or two. A board of directors sounds amazing, especially if you could dispose of dissenters through...various means.

Again, sorry to comment without playing, but I just wanted to put in my initial thoughts.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: hemmingjay on June 26, 2014, 06:55:30 pm

Retro, if i can do anything to get you access I will. I don't mean to hijack what is already an awesome design by supposing I know better. I merely am someone who was always frustrated by games like Shadow President and such where the majority of my actions had no visible representation. It was frustrating and made me do stupid things just so the game would notice me, like nuke the US or something.

I don't love the graphics of the game, but I can appreciate the style. I would prefer something slick and futuristic, and corporate. Something like Uplink meets Excel. Just kidding, sort of.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: puke on June 26, 2014, 07:02:54 pm

I'll throw down for the Early Access, whenever that's available.  I didn't get in on the kickstarter, but I wouldn't mind paying to see some of the early builds of this.  Sounds super neat, and I love to watch the development of concepts like this.

I'm actually more interested in watching how it takes shape, than actually playing the game.  I think I spend more time reading about game design and looking at how the lessons can be applied to other endeavors, and almost no time actually playing games.

Case in point, the Cogmind devblog is one of my favorite things.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: hemmingjay on June 26, 2014, 07:42:39 pm

Quote from: puke on June 26, 2014, 07:02:54 pm

Case in point, the Cogmind devblog is one of my favorite things.

That's the name of my studio   8)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: EuchreJack on June 28, 2014, 12:40:52 am

Quote from: puke on June 26, 2014, 07:02:54 pm

I'll throw down for the Early Access, whenever that's available.  I didn't get in on the kickstarter, but I wouldn't mind paying to see some of the early builds of this.  Sounds super neat, and I love to watch the development of concepts like this.

Not getting in on the Kickstarter for this game is perhaps one of my biggest regrets in gaming.  Definitely interesting in any sort of Early Access!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: puke on October 02, 2014, 10:47:38 am

This thing seems to have gone pretty dark after the clised testing started.  Where are any blog updates or news of progress?

The kickstarter comments suggest it might have lost momentum and died :(

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on October 02, 2014, 11:19:42 am

He posted a (non-game) related update on their FB page at the beginning of September.

But yeah, my sense is that he's gotten lost down a rabbit hole of code rewrites. I haven't questioned or criticized it yet because, when you're down already, forumites taking pot shots at you doesn't help. That said, i'm starting to wonder if this is the first successful Kickstarter I've backed that may not actually complete its product.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Retropunch on October 02, 2014, 11:25:49 am

Quote from: nenjin on October 02, 2014, 11:19:42 am

He posted a (non-game) related update on their FB page at the beginning of September.

But yeah, my sense is that he's gotten lost down a rabbit hole of code rewrites. I haven't questioned or criticized it yet because, when you're down already, forumites taking pot shots at you doesn't help. That said, i'm starting to wonder if this is the first successful Kickstarter I've backed that may not actually complete its product.

From what I've read, it seems as though it's pretty fleshed out as it is. It'd be a big shame for it not to be completed as it looks awesome, but I think worst case scenario it'll probably come out a little bit light on features.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: puke on October 02, 2014, 12:57:08 pm

If he has his head down doing a major rewrite, then that is more encouraging than I thought.  It's hard being a one man developer and a PR person at the same time.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: BlindKitty on October 03, 2014, 02:41:16 am

Yeah, it seems to be a little hard to follow, as he published the news in few places and apparently they are randomly chosen each time he posts. :P But the last few updates on Twitter show that he is still doing a major rewrite, as the game was starting to be too spaghetti for further development, so my guess is he is still working on that. The plan after Kickstarter was to spend the money to live in one room and write code in the other, so everything seems to be going according to plan right now. :P

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: ndkid on October 03, 2014, 07:34:33 am

So he still hasn't reemerged since July? That's a shame. (Well, not counting his random FB link posts.)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: Neonivek on October 03, 2014, 07:36:58 am

Quote from: puke on October 02, 2014, 12:57:08 pm

If he has his head down doing a major rewrite, then that is more encouraging than I thought.  It's hard being a one man developer and a PR person at the same time.

And some people can't even do PR as their solo job :P

*Checks on Academimagia... DANG IT!*

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: sparkbolt on November 18, 2014, 03:19:14 pm

Hey bay 12! So I'm still alive, still working, and yes; I've been stuck.
To sum up events:

After the last build an October, I began another contract and started working on the game and that at same time. Between the time pressures of the contract, and the slowdown from Morgan the programmer leaving, I started burning out fast trying to keep things running. When the holidays hit, I just took it as a break to recuperate my wrists and recover some sanity.
Around the new year, I began to rebuild. Looking back I realize this was a huge the mistake, but now that it's done I have a more solid foundation to work from. Still, this took way longer than I was hoping... But eventually the project had the foundation back.
Now, a big part of this rebuild was implementing new designs replacing things I saw weren't working in the original. For the most part, this went well. However things started getting clunky in march, and I couldn't quite realize why.
In April I started to redesign, trying to solve the problem with a clever solution. However, I would feel unproductive if it wasn't actively coding, so I'd often test these designs by directly building it in the project. This started my problem of bugging up the code, and was actually symptomatic of a greater problem I hadn't realized yet: I'd lost my vision of what Net Gain was supposed to be. I was fumbling around with tunnel vision, contradicting myself and constantly changing my mind. Even though I started to realize this cycle in May, it kept coming back because I hadn't figured out and addressed the root cause.
In May, I tried to focus on the action system. I had multiple problems making this, in part because I started coding before I had a solid design, and part because I was starting to confuse myself and was doubting my coding ability was up to the challenge. I made some poor coding decisions here, as the action system and broker AI got entangled while I tried to resolve both problems.
In July, I kept pounding my head against the problem and was able to get actions mostly working (with a few hard to track bugs), and separated the broker AI to focus on making actions work. I kept having problems with AI brokers either making the wrong choices, or not doing anything. I thought I figured out a solution for the problem, but implementing it only seemed to make things worse.
At this Point I was already pretty miserable. I was in pain, completely burnt out on the project, and realized I didn't really know what I was going for any more.
By the end of August, it was harder and harder to work on the project. Aside from last summer, I've been building this thing entirely by myself, alone in my room for months on end. I'm a fairly private person so it's embarrassing to say... but I'd become entirely despondent, swinging between intense, manic, desperate bouts of work trying to find my vision and think of a solution that still worked, and apathetic self-loathing where I threw away all that wasted effort because it just wasn't working. Ostensibly, this was casued by the problems with the action system and broker AI. But it was really about all of it: of losing my perspective, getting stuck in a cycle of redesign and wasted work, feeling further and further behind, and all of it just crushing my morale and sense of self worth.
In September, I started to recognize the self-destructive spiral I had been trapped in. I tried to refocus my efforts on reconnecting with Net Gain, what I wanted it to play and feel like. The literal look of the game still evaded me, as I try to balance it against what I can do in the time I have, and everything else I still have to make.
I began collecting the designs I've been making over last year, used those to flesh out a comprehensive one that felt like the best balance of what I was reaching for. I had to make some compromises to avoid the pitfalls I'd faced: the most notable one is changing how I was handling rival brokers. I had to abstract many of their actions so I could focus less on making them actually work and more on having interesting encounters with them, the part the player actually sees.
There are still some elements on the smaller scale that need to be designed, but I'm sticking with the core design for the rest of the project. No more redesigning.
My crippling embarrassment over the Summer of Failure kept me from posting about the lack of progress. I kept hoping I could get things back on track and catch up with where I felt I should be, so I could just post the next build and carry on from there... But that's not really feasible anymore. I'm glad to say that work has been improving, things feel like they're finally snapping back in place.
Lately I've been trying to get more of the screens done so that when I posted this update explaining where things have failed, at least have something to show as to the progress of the next build. However, I don't want to show anything that is just a mockup, only actually completed features. As such, I've delved back into the action system... Though it seems to be actually working this time. It's kind of hard to follow visually and I've been trying to find a GUI solution that communicates all the information clearly, but that continues to be a problem. This was the latest thing to hold me up, since I wanted to complete it to show when I made this post to the public (fb/twitter/kickstarter). I've decided to just go with what I have, and continue to focus on my core task: building a complete playable to release.
I continue to worry about the contents of the next playable build, as I know that is when most people who are following this project will return their attention to it, and I want it to be solid enough that people will be less upset about the problems and delays the project has faced so far.
So that's about where things are now. I wish I had more solid information on the next build, but it really depends on if this new design successfully avoids the the pitfalls I faced this spring, how many of the systems I can get in place within a reasonable time frame, how comfortable I am with the aesthetic and fun of the game, and when all be able to follow up that release with new content and progress.


So yeah, that's a pretty thorough summary of things. I plan on making a similar post to the rest of things soon, though I'm still hoping I can develop a few more screens to show with the update.


And responses:
I actually stopped receiving notices about posts to this forum, I'll see if they've been getting filtered to spam or such...

Quote from: hemmingjay on June 26, 2014, 03:50:21 pm

...

Congrats on your Steam Early Access! The Arms Dealer game definitely looks interesting. Are you part of Case In Point Studios or were they the client?
Net Gain's depth is something that will have to evolve by design. The two main vectors for this are Actions (things you can do: change targets, engage in fights) and plots (the "narrative" portion of the action: what's actually happening to do that action, what skill tests, whatchoices, consequences, etc). New actions are the most literal new gameplay, while new plots give you different contexts, events, results, interruptions, etc. Actions expand the depth through new gameplay options, and new aspect+plots expand the depth through new choices and variables to exploit, or face consequences for.


I'm trying to make the gameplay depth more about the players choices and the situations they might set up through their actions, rather than statistical depth or micromanagement that the old builds were heading towards. The problem with the "as deep as you want" design is as you say, many players will simply play at the top level and not see the depth, or players will feel bogged down by the depth they "have to" engage with to really optimize success. I want to make sure if the player is fiddling with details it's to tailor their experience, and it's not just another thing they have to keep doing to "play well".
As for feedback, yes there are the headlines in the ticker that are triggered by stuff you do, and the mechanic changes: increases in wealth, opening new options/plots, raising influence/position within the agency, etc. The most engaging feedback will be the Stories triggered by different actions/plots, since that will give tailored narrative nuggets that seem to be a direct result of your choices and can actually start a new tangent of choices.
That said, it'll still be a cool unemotional conscience removed environment! The choices and consequences presented offer no moral judgement... just the matter-of-fact results of your actions. For example, if a captured agent is presented with the choice to escape, the choices may be a bloody jailbreak (with more dire consequences if you fail), a more stealthy jailbreak (where they're more likely to just put you back in holding if you fail), or to simply stay put (perhaps you doubt the op's ability to escape, or you don't want to jeopardize the rescue operation you're already planning). You don't get any Nice Points for avoiding bloodshed, but it is easier to negotiate with someone when they don't have to pull the hard line because you left them with a pile of bodies. (mechanically, the violent plots/choices cause more reputation damage, lead to more heat, etc. Those things can in turn lead to Stories tied to low reputation and/or high heat, such as raids on your operatives.)

Quote from: nenjin on June 26, 2014, 05:57:17 pm

...I think Netgain falls into the same boat. It's why I didn't burn myself out playing the prototype, because I kind of knew it was going to make me starting doubting the premise, without all those other supporting elements. And for a game like Net Gain, the fun is in the details....not necessarily the basic gameplay loop.

I agree, which is another reason development had been so hard, and why I was doubting everything this whole year. I know I'm supposed to be able to achieve a fun game with the simplest of systems and I'm supposed to build on that, and I still think that holds true, though there is undeniably supposed to be a significant portion of that coming from the depth and interactions of all these free agents. It's like having a tamagotchi, the core gameplay of "feed" and "pet" aren't really the fun aspects of it, but ostensibly that's the core interaction mechanic.

Quote from: Retropunch on June 26, 2014, 06:00:04 pm

...I'm most excited about the long term aspects of this - I think it's a difficult thing to balance...

Comments always appreciated! And don't worry about the alpha, the next time the game is actually worth playing, it'll be available on steam. It'd difficult to think of the endgame when the startgame is so piecemeal, but it's definitely kept in mind. Net Gain actually avoids leveling and incremental stat bumping stuff. The idea is success gets you more budget, options, and a few tiers of gameplay to unlock. Powerful operatives are balanced out by their high cost, and since operatives will need down time you want to save your best guys for the big important ops, while keeping teams of lesser operatives to run your listening posts and safehouses, collect intel on targets for your better ops to exploit, etc. Then the concept that as you gain more power you start to make bigger moves: taking entire companies, bringing down corps... the stuff that gets attention of the bigger conglomerates who can throw some heavy firepower your way.
When things go wrong you get a whole new set of problems to deal with, and when things go wrong on a bigger scale, those problems are proportionally more severe and require more to quell. I'll have to actually see how things work when we get there, but the idea is you'll be less concerned with making your numbers get bigger, and more concerned with getting your people all over the world, taking on bigger corps instead of just spying and stealing, running the Conspiracies (pre-written Stories that connect and can often require greater requirements than normal plots, in exchange for special results and narrative treats), and being able to fiddle with the world ("I want to stop war in the middle east. I want Kuwait to be prosperous. I want Canada to meltdown into a country of civil strife and rioting.").
And of course the mortality of the operatives mean things can always go badly if you put them out there. The broker is sort of a "choose your own risk", as it depends on how many loose threads you leave, how many failures you allow to stack up without addressing them. Mechanically the main risk to the broker is heat gained through captured operatives, or investigations into your missions that got way too public. You can divert resources to rescue/silence captured ops and clean up your trails, but that's money not spent on making more money.

And the idea of that "ARG" feel, like you're a broker who's clocking into work, is one that I'm trying hard to implement. A lot fo that will also depend on deepening the simulation for the operatives, since the broker has this sort of Voyeur quality about checking in on what they're up to, maybe fiddling with them and seeing how your choices change them or the world ("Oh, that operative that had all his allies killed got [Traumatized]. Now all he does is drink... I better do something or he'll become an [alcoholic]!" or "What does one do with a broken tool? Throw it away..." *scheme scheme scheme*) The supply of new Plots, Stories, and Conspiracies adding new content will bee a big feature in continuing the unique play outside of the simulation itself. One that I hope to open to authors to contribute. Ideally I'd be able to curate some submissions for the core game, and have a solution for players to add their own preferences such as through Steam Workshop.

The gui has changed radically, there will be feedback for you actions, and there is a board of directors! Corps have Executives with aspects that influence how the corporation acts. The Executives are Persona just like operatives, so you can change their aspects, gain influence with them, or take them out as you please. Rival corp becoming a threat? Maybe you can neuter them by taking out their [warmonger] executive (though obviously this is a risky thing to do, especially with your own corp)!

Quote from: nenjin on October 02, 2014, 11:19:42 am

...(non-game) related update on their FB page ... my sense is that he's gotten lost down a rabbit hole of code rewrites. I haven't questioned or criticized it yet because, when you're down already, forumites taking pot shots at you doesn't help. That said, i'm starting to wonder if this is the first successful Kickstarter I've backed that may not actually complete its product.

[/size]Actually, most of those non-game updates on the FB are by Joe...  :-[ it's what he does while he waits for me to finish the plots system so he can write some plots for the game. As you guess, got stuck in the rabbit hole... along with an OD of depression and anxiety. I don't even need the usual Internet Hate Machine, since I'm pretty much already thinking those things. That said, I'm dedicated to finishing this project. Aside from a reserve for physical rewards, phone licenses, and a small bit for potential middleware, I'm running on my own funds. Even if the contracts dry up and I switch to a 9-5, I'll keep working on this project until it's done.
[/font]
[/size]

Quote from: Retropunch on October 02, 2014, 11:25:49 am

[/size]... worst case scenario it'll probably come out a little bit light on features...

The next build, definitely. On the plus side, once I actually finish the core systems, the features are easier to develop via actions and plots. Hell, I've got digital reams of docs full of them just waiting to be implemented once the core is in place.


So... while things have been dark this Summer, I'm actually pretty hopeful for the progress I've been making since. I'm still hitting a few problems and I definitely need to find a way to get a programmer to work with again, because working on this alone has definitely been the biggest detriment to my productivity and well being. That probably won't be feasible until the game is released and if it does well, but I'm starting to figure out how to keep the balance as a solo developer and figuring out how to keep myself in check and avoid these vicious cycles that I've been stuck in.


Note: Despite the picture below, save/load isn't really in yet. Right now all it does is remember your broker, but I'm hoping to at least let it save your agency and operatives, even if you have to (temporarily) set up with a new corporation while I figure out the finicky details of saving them and your active missions/plots/etc. And those notices are technically mock-up, though only because I haven't added the triggers in to actually send them. The notice system is all up and working, and the hooks will be in before the next build.


PICTURES

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/rry2ZS7.png)


(http://i.imgur.com/0n5xKHp.png)
[/size]

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: puke on November 18, 2014, 04:01:51 pm

Still motivated to pay money for this thing. 

I'm actually a bit excited that it has gotten some design overhaul and will be a tighter product in the end.  I expect your next project to probably not be Net Gain 2.0, or Gross Gain or whatever, so better for me that the improvements go into this one now.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Prototype v0.5.2 is live!
Post by: nenjin on November 18, 2014, 08:44:05 pm

SB, I kinda figured that was the score. In a way, I regret some feedback I gave because I'm sure it fed into your doubt/anxiety loop. You listened to your backers but there's always a risk doing that, when you start deviating from the path you initially plotted for yourself.

It's all good though. Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say. I'm just glad you're back on task and you've seemed to find your motivation again. I look forward to the next build.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: Knave on November 18, 2014, 11:30:16 pm

Just wanted to post to say it's good to hear from you! Still really looking forward to the finished product :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 19, 2014, 12:21:20 pm

Same here. Glad you're still working on this!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: jhxmt on November 19, 2014, 04:12:42 pm

Likewise, glad for the update - keep on chugging!  :)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: askovdk on November 19, 2014, 10:37:06 pm

Thank you for the update.
I'm sorry to hear that you have been so deep down, but it sound like both you and NetGain is heading in a good direction again.  :)

(And also thank you for reminding us that behind many apparent  *** money grapping *** EA development stop ** scams(!!) lies a reality of desperation, depression and broken dreams.  :'( So again, great to hear that you back.  :D )

Consider leaving a link to this update on the Desura news. I can understand if you prefer to wait till you have a nice updated version, but I believe that letting people know that there has been trouble will make us just the more happy when the update comes (instead of perhaps thinking: "?? so long silence, and then we don't get moar??" )

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: BlindKitty on November 20, 2014, 02:40:38 am

I, too, am very happy to hear from you - and I completely understand the problems you faced. But rest assured that we are all backing you up! Waiting for a great game is not so bad - probably much better than playing a bad game. ;)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: Retropunch on November 20, 2014, 02:42:38 am

Would just like to also chime in to say how happy I am to hear it's back in development.
I also think it's a good idea to spread this news as widely as possible - it's always very worrying when devs just go quiet.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 26, 2014, 05:38:59 pm

Glad to hear things are still going.  You might benefit from setting an end point: Gameplay of X level by Y date, then you can walk away.  If you implement mod support, you can let the player base fill in some of the content.

I'd still like to throw money at this game.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: nenjin on April 01, 2015, 05:32:43 pm

SB just put out a backer update.

It puts into formal words what many had already assumed: he and the project had fallen on hard times.

He's brutally honest about how things have gone since he went dark, to the point if you're looking to have your confidence in the game built up, this isn't going to do it for you. I get this is a message he felt was obligated to send, rather than he wanted to.

Essentially, he has to find full-time work to sustain himself, both financially and in terms of his sanity and motivation. Development has become a bit of an Ouroburos with the understandable impact on his confidence and drive to have something to show. He lost the help he hired (and spent Kickstarter money on), has gutted and re-written the game more than once by now, and so he's sort of back to Square One. Penniless with a half finished framework of a game.

So the plan has pretty radically changed at this point:
1. Find work.
2. Reobtain financial stability.
3. Work on Net gain as time allows.

So....yeah. Not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth and I'll take that. He could have, as some Kickstarters have done, just fled the scene entirely. So I respect him for owning up to the way things went, and for refusing to let go of development, as tempting and sensible an option as that is right now. But as someone who carries their failures around with them for a long time, I think I get that admitting defeat isn't an option. The ghost that would haunt him for that would ultimately be worse for him than what he's currently going through.

I can't lie and say that I'm not disappointed, but I feel like I can wait as long as it takes for him to pull things together again. My Kickstarter money....I guess if it played any part in him learning, failing and eventually succeeding to release a Net Gain he's happy with, it was money well spent.

To SB, it sucks but that's life. Just remember to can your ego, the part where making you feel bad about failing further inhibits you, and you might find the mental peace and space to approach development as something fun and liberating again, instead of grueling and imprisoning. Just stay in touch and let us know the progress you end up making.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Greetings, brokers.

It's been awhile since we talked. I'll cover some of the major points up front.

    Net Gain isn't dead.
    Development suffered and stalled through 2014.
    I had to find full-time work. Development will stay slow while I work on rebuilding my finances and health.
    Once I've recovered I can steadily devote more time and resources to the project.
    A new build is still months away, and it's still going to be fairly rough, more of a sideways move from the last build. I still find the time to work on it whenever I can. Priority has been on completing the systems that allow me to add more content in between bigger builds (new plots, stories, events, etc).

To recap what's happened,

I'll start from the last build, October 2013. My assisting programmer left, I had a new contract that was demanding my time, and the long hours from the last two years were starting to have serious effects on my physical and mental health. I focused on finishing the contract, recovering during the holidays, and starting fresh in the new year. When I came back Unity had done their large GUI overhaul, most of my middleware had big updates to go with it, I had learned more about programming that revealed the deep faults in my original prototype code, and I saw problems with the current build's gameplay that I wanted to fix. I still felt burnt out, but at least I was motivated to keep moving forward.

I decided to start over from scratch, building the game up with the new gameplay design and better code. This went well at first, but began to fall apart when I implemented the new designs. One big change required another, and this began a vicious spiral that would take different forms but mostly went like this:

1. Try to fix a problem with the current design.

2. Feel guilty for taking too long, hurry to code a solution.

3. Hurried solution causes problems down the line, or doesn't feel fun, or some other doubts about what I'm doing.

4. Get frustrated and despondent with how things aren't working out, throw out work that was "heading the wrong direction" and start over with more pressure and stress.

Things got worse over the summer and fall, with more radical changes, deleting/drastically altering/redesigning weeks of work "Because it's just not working/fun/good", increasing despair and sense of failure compounding the stress and burnout and doubt, and the whole thing just spiraling out of control. I had completely lost my vision for the game, was sick and deeply depressed, perpetually in pain, falling into debt, and paralyzed with worry about my future and the seemingly insurmountable monolithic project ahead.

I'm already introverted, but the shame of falling behind, the isolation of depression, and working entirely alone all day persuaded me to fall silent online, and pull away from friends and family. Even writing this is hard. I'd tell myself I'd come back once I had something to show for it, but that isolation only kept me in the destructive spiral. I was convinced I could just push through it, get back to my productive self, and put this embarrassing failure behind me by powering through. All it did was make things worse.

It was a rough year.
In Winter,

I sought help and tried to figure out how I could fix this broken cycle. It took me a few tries, and sometimes I just fell into the same damn spiral, but eventually I realized:

1. I couldn't work alone all day anymore. I needed help on the game, and I needed someone to keep my perspective in check, out of the spiral. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford to hire a programmer, or find someone to join me.

2. I couldn't work on only Net Gain. It was stifling my creativity and stagnating my education, and in the end didn't help the game any, either. I needed to keep trying new things outside of the game, learning new skills and renewing my energy to bring it all back to Net Gain. Just the review and research I did during my full-time job hunt has improved my work significantly.

3. I'm getting older, have no savings, falling into debt, and my career was stagnant with no immediate prospects. I acknowledged from the start that Net Gain was too niche to be a big moneymaker, but this was simply unsustainable. Not just financially but emotionally and physically; I can't keep up. I needed to start worrying about how I'm supposed to provide for a family, not just meet the bare minimums to survive and keep working on the project.

4. I don't want to - or simply can't - give up on Net Gain. I still love the project, no matter how burnt out or trapped it makes me feel. I don't think I'll have a peaceful night's rest until it's finished.

Things had to change.
So, the current plan:

1. Full time employment, get out of the hole, build up some savings. The priority here is to get back on my feet, working on Net Gain during my time off. Until this gets settled the time I can devote to Net Gain development is limited.

2. Finish the new build. The code has become a scarred battleground of my indecisions and self-doubt, and the often rash pushes forward left it brittle and buggy, but I've been steadily clearing it up and moving in one consistent direction. I wish I could say when I'd expect it but it depends entirely on how long it takes me to find steady work and how demanding that job is on my time, not to mention the usual unknowns with development. It'll still be rough, but if I keep waiting until it's "good enough" to justify all that lost time it'll never be ready.

3. Once I have the funds, begin looking for a programmer to join me on the project. Before I try to transition back to working on Net Gain full time, I have to find someone I can rely on to build it with me and prevent that isolated destructive spiral.

4. If my current job doesn't allow for it, I'll begin looking for a position that allows me more time to work on Net Gain. That could mean a full-time job with decent time off or sabbaticals, part-time, or a teaching position with summers free.

5. Once Net Gain reaches a much more polished level, launching on the public Steam Store. If things go well, I can see about coming back to it full time and without working alone.

I know this isn't the news anyone wants to hear. I don't want to hear it myself. This attempt at the project failed, and the only way I see to complete this project is to get my feet back under me, get better, and try again. I'm hopeful with the direction things are going now, and can see actual progress instead of just spinning in circles. It's been a rough road to get this far, but I am dedicated to completing the journey.

Down but not out,
John Gosling

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: jocan2003 on April 01, 2015, 06:24:56 pm

Well ill give him that, he rose up and spoke the hard sounding truth and have my respect for that. When i spend money on kickstarter i consider the money lost anyway so i dont get my hopes up and then down again. If it work perfect but if it doesnt, well doesnt affect me as i went in thinking it would fail anyway. Im a grim guy but that money was basicly spare money i had.

Now as for the game i can wait all the time in the world for the game to be delivered. Also the difference between a master and an apprentice is that the master failed more often then the apprentive ever tried!.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Down but not out. Development continues.
Post by: sparkbolt on April 03, 2015, 02:03:12 pm

Hey guys!
So yeah, the backer-only post pretty much sums up what I posted here last time, except I've acknowledged I have to find full time work and rebuild my warchest, instead of this unsteady practice of building debt and trying to find contracts which seem to be only making up for the time lost trying to land them, for a zero sum resolution.


It was more out of obligation. Not to say I didn't want to say it, to let people know what was going on, just that the shame of admitting defeat and personal issues to a thousand strangers and close friends and family is pretty intimidating. I considered editing it out, but couldn't think of a way to give the full context for what was happening without being open about everything.


I didn't so much lose the help as Morgan just had to go back to school, and honestly the cost seemed to be higher than the development gotten for it, since I had to pay him a decent amount (even with a portion of his pay being from future sales) while my own time was costing me well below minimum wage. Of course the cost of living below the poverty line started to outweigh the other advantages. The guilt of falling behind led me to run in Crunch Mode for years, but with that nasty spiral of doubting my work much of it was wasted effort.


The game isn't a total mess, though. IT still has (most) of the things from the last build, and quite a few features past that, but the heart of it has been a mess from trying to figure out how to best make it all work.
That's the Aspect system, the tags that you add/remove to targets, that enable different actions, that alter the rules and so forth. It's been difficult to create, due to it's complexity and interactions with almost every element, and my initial inexperience with programming things this complex was definitely a hindrance. My recent research has given me some solid ideas for resolving this, though, and it's starting to fall in place.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2015, 02:17:42 pm

Glad to hear the project is still moving forward, even if slowly!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: jocan2003 on April 03, 2015, 04:33:37 pm

I am waiting eagerly for this game as it makes me think of beyond protocol agent system where your agent was quite powerfull and unique, could improve stats etc Was very deep.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: puke on April 03, 2015, 05:49:00 pm

I'll still buy it when it's ready.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: Retropunch on April 08, 2015, 10:47:19 am

I'm sure people have already said it, but it always bares repeating: A good game is well worth waiting for.

No one minds having to wait another year (or two, or four) for it, as long as it does get done and it gets done well. I'd only suggest to keep people up to date with fortnightly or monthly updates (even if it's a paragraph or two just saying I've thought about....' or whatever) so that we know the project isn't dead.

Take as long as you need, just please don't let it die!



 

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: Geneoce on June 17, 2015, 10:28:52 pm

PTW. Been looking for a game like this, could be a good play come 2016-2017.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: askovdk on June 18, 2015, 02:10:36 am

Yes, this project has some good and very unique ideas.
I very much like the 'information economy', i.e. specific information gained in one area can be transformed (with a loss) to different information. That fits my impression of covert networks, where you can build up influence, but once it is used on a specific hit, then that source is blown.

I would personally like this extended in Net Gain, so you can plant cells (in regions / cooperations / market sectors) to gather non-specific strength (owed favours, black mail, financial pressure, ...) and this can then be transformed before and during a mission. Having a large strength in a given area gives you a higher exposure, and as covert agents this should result in lesser defence in that area.
(My current pet project (that will probably never leave my notebook) is a boardgame with this mechanic.)

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: sparkbolt on July 07, 2015, 01:57:13 am

Hey all! Posted a new update on the KickStarter. Short of it is I landed a job and I've been adapting to the changes, starting to get some development time on weekends, maybe a few weekday evenings in a bit.
Also making a small change with some notable impacts: You only have one "primary" cell, and support cells (1-3 operatives) that do things over time, like gather intel or secure a safehouse for a region. (More on that below)

Quote from: askovdk on June 18, 2015, 02:10:36 am

I very much like the 'information economy' ... I would personally like this extended in Net Gain ...

That's all pretty much in there already! you can gather Sigma on any target (including regions, markets, relationships). Sigma is basically the sum "point" value of the intel, schedules, favours, moles, and etc that you've set up/discovered relating to that target. Sigma - on a target - is the sum of your actionable resources you can bring to the table. In a location, this can be used to gain sigma on related targets - uncover who's passed through that territory, detail local federal security schedules, infiltrate a local politicians campaign - or to expand a safehouse. On a corporation it gain intel on their connections - uncovering access to their company assets, executives and stores of more liquid capital. On an industry it can raise/lower market wealth -cause crashes and sabotage factories or boost commercial interests and sudden stock rallies. On security it can bribe off detects or increase conflict hits - hire a mole to let you in, or target them for mortar fire.
Operatives can collect as much sigma as they can hold on to, but the longer they operate in an area the more heat they'll gain, and you'll have to offset by sleeping the cell or devoting more resources to the safehouse infrastructure/network.


Kickstarter Post Snippet:
One of the main ideas is one that's been in the back of my mind for awhile; the player has a single "primary" cell. You'll still have satellite cells of 1-3 operatives, that'll do "persistent" jobs (running a safehouse, listening post, trailing politicians, brokering intel, etc), and operatives can still switch in for any role, you can pick up freelancers, swap out ops on retainer... but your primary cell is your main big team, the operatives that do the big, daring missions!


This actually solves a lot of other problems as well: the player's spends more time and can get to really know his primary team. The player no longer feels the need to spread out with multiple smaller teams that just get outmatched and killed. With that, the game can also be better balanced against the one team. There won't be Stories constantly pulling the player's focus back-and-forth between cells, instead focusing on the single mission as it unfolds (and keeps its dramatic tension). Players will be more likely to advance time to move between the plots in a mission, which helps space out events, allow the world to adapt and react to stuff the player does, assets to develop, resources to accumulate, so on. I think this'll even help the ops who get assigned to the support jobs; instead of making operatives bridge the gap you can tailor someone to be the dedicated safehouse operator for your team.


So I'll be making a few changes to get that, most of it will be tweaking profits->budgets->salaries, challenges for a team, and changes to the UI/menus. The gameplay focus will still be on implementing Stories, the events triggered by mission plots, news stories, skill tests, certain aspects, etc. They have to most potency with delivering narrative and setting content, and offering unique gameplay options. Once the framework and a good number of rules are implemented (the different ways Stories can impact the world), they will be an easier way to provide you all with more frequent content: they're fun and easy to create, and I've got notebooks full of them!

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 07, 2015, 02:11:22 am

This is the only game I've ever backed, and I'm still looking forward to it! long as you keep making it, I'll play it when it's done.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 21, 2017, 10:13:39 pm

I wish I had bought into the demo.  It seems like something fun to tinker with, even if incomplete.

Title: Re: Net Gain: Corporate Espionage in 2043. Development halted but not abandoned.
Post by: nenjin on March 21, 2017, 11:26:29 pm

Yeah sadly I don't know what happened to my copy. I doubt the page for the download is even available anymore.